cypherpunks Digest, Vol 89, Issue 27
Karl
gmkarl at gmail.com
Mon Nov 9 16:11:51 PST 2020
hi frank. I don't understand what you're referring to.
But, man, that's a lot of posts to this list by me! I sure don't want
to be filling the inboxes of everybody with spam ... This guy who
subscribes with digests doesn't have as much opportunity to filter me
...
On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 7:05 PM frank mcelligott <frankmac at ripco.com> wrote:
>
>
> She owes the atlanta hawks..... Richer than Biden
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cypherpunks-request at lists.cpunks.org
> Sent: Monday, November 09, 2020 4:03 PM
> To: cypherpunks at lists.cpunks.org
> Subject: cypherpunks Digest, Vol 89, Issue 27
>
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: How Do We Escape Computer Controlled Propaganda Flow (Karl)
> 2. Re: How Do We Escape Computer Controlled Propaganda Flow
> (\0xDynamite)
> 3. Re: How Do We Escape Computer Controlled Propaganda Flow (Karl)
> 4. Re: How Do We Escape Computer Controlled Propaganda Flow (Karl)
> 5. Re: How Do We Escape Computer Controlled Propaganda Flow (Karl)
> 6. Re: How Do We Escape Computer Controlled Propaganda Flow
> (Zenaan Harkness)
> 7. Re: How Do We Escape Computer Controlled Propaganda Flow
> (Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2020 17:46:04 -0500
> From: Karl <gmkarl at gmail.com>
> To: "Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0" <punks at tfwno.gf>
> Cc: cypherpunks <cypherpunks at lists.cpunks.org>
> Subject: Re: How Do We Escape Computer Controlled Propaganda Flow
> Message-ID:
> <CALL-=e5reL+078Qt4DdRjbW7vOp7BtC8tF32afT=rw38GgUs1Q at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 5:33 PM Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 <punks at tfwno.gf>
> wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, 9 Nov 2020 15:24:30 -0500
> > Karl <gmkarl at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 2:38 PM Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 <punks at tfwno.gf>
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > > you need to identify people to make 'votes unalterable' - the
> > > > very opposite of anonimity.
> > >
> > > I see you expressing some of the things you usually express. I don't
> > > believe your assumption here is true: you can make votes unalterable
> > > and not identify people. I'm not a cryptographer.
> >
> >
> > even if there's some crypto trick to do something that looks kinda
> > anonymous, you still have to identify which people are 'authorized' to
> > vote. Authority being of course the keyword here. In reality voting is a
> > wholly statist mechanism that takes for granted the 'authority' of the
> > state or other mafia and the absurd idea that mob majority rule has any
> > legitimacy at all.
>
> Here, realize that voting is a crude analogy for _actual real
> communication where we make decisions together_ omigod.
>
> >
> > If we want to fix the current political problems it may be a good
> > idea to first identify them.
> >
> >
> > > > 'underground' network using broadcast radio and NSA hardware?
> > > > And what would you do with your 'underground' network anyway? Use it
> > > > to talk to government agents?
> >
> > >
> > > Obviously, the answer is to finally talk with people who aren't
> > > government agents.
> >
> > Yeah, but how do you know who is an agent in an 'underground' and
> > (hopefully) anonymous network?
>
> wasn't my joke funny? my joke was so funny! it was funny because we
> can't talk about it =( so jokes are the only way =( this is also a
> half-joke =)
>
> >
> > Anyway, an actually anonymous network may weaken the power of
> > govcorp somewhat but it's hardly a panacea. And what I was getting at is
> > that writing programs is pointless if people don't use the programs. So
> > even if you had a working design for say an anonymous network, it woud
> > still have to be 'deployed', which is something the users themselves would
> > have to do. Which in turn requires the users to be aware of various
> > technical and political issues, et cetera.
>
> any mobile app business can relate that it is easy to get people to
> run a program, and any blockchain developer can tell you that it is
> easy to get them to keep doing it.
>
> random idea from thousands:
> app #1: "how to have fun sniffing your friends network traffic, seeing
> and altering their secret conversations. btw pay us $5 if you don't
> want your friends messages randomly altered to alert that you are
> watching them, with helpful information on community project app #2"
> app #2: "cool anonymity network! nobody can see you chat!"
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2020 16:48:26 -0600
> From: "\\0xDynamite" <dreamingforward at gmail.com>
> To: Karl <gmkarl at gmail.com>
> Cc: "Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0" <punks at tfwno.gf>, CypherPunks
> <cypherpunks at lists.cpunks.org>
> Subject: Re: How Do We Escape Computer Controlled Propaganda Flow
> Message-ID:
> <CAMjeLr_9_nEaHKZkb_xth64e8btxVUgNnHECmf8uaiAdAA2t6A at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Hmmm, I'm not sure what curl is supposed to do, when I tried it on
> http rather than https, I got 301: moved permanently.
>
> When I tried known sites like mit.edu, I got a 302: moved permanently.
>
> So what should it do?
>
> On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 4:04 PM Karl <gmkarl at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 4:41 PM \0xDynamite <dreamingforward at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > It works. But try wiki.hackerspaces.org.
> >
> > I don't understand what you mean by `it works`. What do you think of
> > this terminal snippet?
> > ```
> > $ curl -v https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/
> > * About to connect() to wiki.hackerspaces.org port 443 (#0)
> > * Trying 212.12.52.48...
> > * Connected to wiki.hackerspaces.org (212.12.52.48) port 443 (#0)
> > * Initializing NSS with certpath: sql:/etc/pki/nssdb
> > * CAfile: /etc/pki/tls/certs/ca-bundle.crt
> > CApath: none
> > * SSL connection using TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384
> > * Server certificate:
> > * subject: CN=wiki.hackspaces.org
> > * start date: Oct 30 01:00:18 2020 GMT
> > * expire date: Jan 28 01:00:18 2021 GMT
> > * common name: wiki.hackspaces.org
> > * issuer: CN=Let's Encrypt Authority X3,O=Let's Encrypt,C=US
> > > GET / HTTP/1.1
> > > User-Agent: curl/7.29.0
> > > Host: wiki.hackerspaces.org
> > > Accept: */*
> > >
> > < HTTP/1.1 504 Gateway Time-out
> > < Server: nginx
> > < Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2020 22:03:40 GMT
> > < Content-Type: text/html
> > < Content-Length: 160
> > < Connection: keep-alive
> > <
> > <html>
> > <head><title>504 Gateway Time-out</title></head>
> > <body>
> > <center><h1>504 Gateway Time-out</h1></center>
> > <hr><center>nginx</center>
> > </body>
> > </html>
> > * Connection #0 to host wiki.hackerspaces.org left intact
> > ```
> >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 2:50 PM Karl <gmkarl at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 3:22 PM \0xDynamite <dreamingforward at gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > > So which do you prefer: accountability or anonymity? The power
> > > > > > > goes
> > > > > > > both ways. Pick one.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is the cypherpunks mailing list? Weren't cypherpunks
> > > > > > advocates of anonimity or something?
> > > > >
> > > > > Geez man, can't you pick up on it when someone's trying to teach you
> > > > > something?
> > > > >
> > > > > Anonymity and accountability are two contrary aims. If you want
> > > > > one,
> > > > > you don't get the other. Get it?
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > but all those things are controlled by political
> > > > > > > > power. 'information flow' is controlled by US corporations at
> > > > > > > > a global scale for instance.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > No these things are not just controlled by political power.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I mean, abstract mathematics is obviously NOT controlled
> > > > > > by political power, but all the infrastructure clearly is.
> > > > >
> > > > > No, contrary to your anarcho-punk philosophy, all power is not held
> > > > > in
> > > > > politics. Much of the hardware is controlled by base economic
> > > > > forces
> > > > > of simply wanting to get money. Snowden is a sheep in whistleblower
> > > > > clothing -- his "knowledge" of seekrit powers in tech devices is
> > > > > bullshit. There are also social forces driving things.
> > > > > Unfortunately
> > > > > the powers that run the world are at level 100 or so, while the
> > > > > people
> > > > > are generally at LVL 20 or less, so they get mystified, used,
> > > > > confused, and paranoid. You've fallen under it because you don't
> > > > > have mastery of the tech. That's all. Get a degree and become a
> > > > > real
> > > > > expert or learn by yourself by following paths online, like the one
> > > > > I
> > > > > put on hackerspaces.org (OneTruePath). OR, get this, simply be
> > > >
> > > > 504 Gateway Error over here, and not on archive.org .
> > > >
> > > > > respectful to other people who HAVE done this work and learn
> > > > > something
> > > > > from THEM.
> > > > >
> > > > > Until then, you're just a loudmouth.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Point being, cryptography by itself will get you nowhere,
> > > > > > AND cryptography is a pretty toxic tool in the hands of the
> > > > > > political powers that control its practical application.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cryptography by itself *has* gotten us nowhere, because nothing we
> > > > > REALLY wanted to do required going against the law. And what is it
> > > > > that we REALLY want to do? (hmm, free society, creative culture,
> > > > > radical love, ....)
> > > > >
> > > > > \0xD
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2020 17:50:51 -0500
> From: Karl <gmkarl at gmail.com>
> To: "\\0xDynamite" <dreamingforward at gmail.com>
> Cc: "Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0" <punks at tfwno.gf>, CypherPunks
> <cypherpunks at lists.cpunks.org>
> Subject: Re: How Do We Escape Computer Controlled Propaganda Flow
> Message-ID:
> <CALL-=e4W52enCszRgVpQCndVS_KwBJzLraDQdw8kAEMYa5vcNg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 5:37 PM \0xDynamite <dreamingforward at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > > Really? I know how to find philes I want -- if I need them. Do you?
> > >
> > > what files are you talking about? the_bible.pdf?
> >
> > Lolz, that one's legal to copy, for the most part. Why did you make a
> > personal attack? Are you unable to use reason alone?
>
> personal attacks is how punk-stasi is most free to communicate. i
> don't believe they are meant personally.
>
> >
> > > > > This is the cypherpunks mailing list? Weren't cypherpunks
> > > > > advocates of anonimity or something?
> > > >
> > > > Geez man, can't you pick up on it when someone's trying to teach you
> > > > something?
> > > >
> > > > Anonymity and accountability are two contrary aims. If you want one,
> > > > you don't get the other. Get it?
> > >
> > > dude. What do you think you're teaching me, exactly? *I* pointed
> > > out *first* that 'accountable' voting and anonimity are at odds. Learn 2
> > > read.
> >
> > Regardless of your anarchist philosophy, you seek leaders. Perhaps
> > because deep in your DNA you know these questions were already
> > answered. So, if you have leaders, you'll want accountability.
>
> you can even have accountability without leaders!
>
> re: anonymity: for example we could reduce the network time allocated
> to behaviors that result in harm to a consensus algorithm, challenging
> people who desire to transmit such traffic, to support efforts to
> improve that algorithm in some way.
>
> >
> > > > No, contrary to your anarcho-punk philosophy, all power is not held in
> > > > politics. Much of the hardware is controlled by base economic forces
> > > > of simply wanting to get money.
> > >
> > > all of the hardware is manufactured by corporations that are
> > > just arms of the government. So like I said, at the root there's only
> > > political power.
> >
> > Corps are not just arms of the government, unless you want to talk
> > about octopus-type arms of the all-seeing-eye. In the octopus, each
> > arm is an individual and acts separately, but they share at least some
> > common desire or core. It could be survival in the case of America,
> > at this point.
>
> to add some third viewpoint, some people describe strong coercive
> power as 'the real government'
>
> >
> > > > Snowden is a sheep in whistleblower clothing -- his "knowledge" of
> > > > seekrit powers in tech devices is bullshit.
> > >
> > > not sure how snowden got into the picture? Oh sorry yeah. You're
> > > ranting.
> >
> > You're not sure. That's a good start.
> >
> > > > You've fallen under it because you don't have mastery of the tech.
> > >
> > > wut
> >
> > The response of the nubile who's been caught, wanting to know how I
> > can know something that you never revealed.
> >
> > > > Get a degree and become a real expert or learn by yourself by
> > > > following paths online
> > >
> > > what do you want me to learn, exactly?
> >
> > Some real computer science, or at least some programming, maybe math.
> >
> > > > simply be respectful to other people who HAVE done this work
> > >
> > > LMAO! What 'work' are you talking about
> >
> > Mastering the tech that you say is controlled by governments, duh.
> >
> > > > Until then, you're just a loudmouth.
> > >
> > > a jew-fascist like you shouldn't badmouth his betters. Your
> > > knowledge of political philosophy is a lot worse than non-existent. Your
> > > knowledge of 'tech' is prolly just as bad.
> >
> > You're just being a loudmouth. Either have some real Truth, skills,
> > or try somewhere else than cypherpunks to get relevance.
> >
> > > > Cryptography by itself *has* gotten us nowhere, because nothing we
> > > > REALLY wanted to do required going against the law.
> > >
> > > what 'law' are you talking about here?
> > >
> > > > And what is it that we REALLY want to do? (hmm, free society,
> > > > creative culture,
> > > > radical love)
> > >
> > > those things are obviously against all government laws. So which
> > > law is this law you mentioned?
> >
> > Tell me, punk, is the law more powerful than Man?
> >
> > Marxos
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2020 17:52:01 -0500
> From: Karl <gmkarl at gmail.com>
> To: "\\0xDynamite" <dreamingforward at gmail.com>
> Cc: "Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0" <punks at tfwno.gf>, CypherPunks
> <cypherpunks at lists.cpunks.org>
> Subject: Re: How Do We Escape Computer Controlled Propaganda Flow
> Message-ID:
> <CALL-=e46OBC2JsihzrkXPMjUnjdjvkndxY7rgeQCPU9xnQtvLw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 5:41 PM \0xDynamite <dreamingforward at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > So which do you prefer: accountability or anonymity? The power
> > > > > > goes
> > > > > > both ways. Pick one.
> > > > >
> > > > > This is the cypherpunks mailing list? Weren't cypherpunks
> > > > > advocates of anonimity or something?
> > > >
> > > > Geez man, can't you pick up on it when someone's trying to teach you
> > > > something?
> > > >
> > > > Anonymity and accountability are two contrary aims. If you want one,
> > > > you don't get the other. Get it?
> > >
> > > We were mind controlled to take over the world, but we have learned to
> > > resist.
> > >
> > > Aims, like anonymity and accountability, are not contrary. They all
> > > can be accomplished together.
> >
> > You're probably talking about the election and the voting process. I
> > was speaking generally.
>
> The only law is time, who holds no sides.
>
> > > Casting aims as contrary was a way to reduce the power of the masses.
> >
> > You're right. In theory you could achieve both with a second layer, a
> > layer of indirection. Asking for ID to get into the voting booth,
> > which just has to keep track that you haven't voted already and
> > separate the act of voting, which can be anonymized by concealed
> > ballots.
> >
> > \0xD
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2020 17:56:52 -0500
> From: Karl <gmkarl at gmail.com>
> To: "\\0xDynamite" <dreamingforward at gmail.com>
> Cc: "Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0" <punks at tfwno.gf>, CypherPunks
> <cypherpunks at lists.cpunks.org>
> Subject: Re: How Do We Escape Computer Controlled Propaganda Flow
> Message-ID:
> <CALL-=e6XMC_mbMVpfjJQ+_75oGxPBA0QD8LeDi71_1VDic7MnA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Curl performs an HTTP request, like a web browser does as the first
> thing when you visit a website. I didn't know you were unfamiliar
> with curl or I wouldn't have pasted the output to you. The output
> includes details that would help the administrator of
> wiki.hackerspaces.org relate around the issue I experience. But if
> you can paste your output, it would help me understand what is going
> on, myself, and others on the list too if they have interest.
>
> 301 and 302 mean the url is forwarding you somewhere else. It should
> say where else it is forwarding you to, notably in the `Location: `
> header if you pass `-v`. Pass `-L` to automatically follow those
> redirects.
>
> On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 5:48 PM \0xDynamite <dreamingforward at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hmmm, I'm not sure what curl is supposed to do, when I tried it on
> > http rather than https, I got 301: moved permanently.
> >
> > When I tried known sites like mit.edu, I got a 302: moved permanently.
> >
> > So what should it do?
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 4:04 PM Karl <gmkarl at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 4:41 PM \0xDynamite <dreamingforward at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > It works. But try wiki.hackerspaces.org.
> > >
> > > I don't understand what you mean by `it works`. What do you think of
> > > this terminal snippet?
> > > ```
> > > $ curl -v https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/
> > > * About to connect() to wiki.hackerspaces.org port 443 (#0)
> > > * Trying 212.12.52.48...
> > > * Connected to wiki.hackerspaces.org (212.12.52.48) port 443 (#0)
> > > * Initializing NSS with certpath: sql:/etc/pki/nssdb
> > > * CAfile: /etc/pki/tls/certs/ca-bundle.crt
> > > CApath: none
> > > * SSL connection using TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384
> > > * Server certificate:
> > > * subject: CN=wiki.hackspaces.org
> > > * start date: Oct 30 01:00:18 2020 GMT
> > > * expire date: Jan 28 01:00:18 2021 GMT
> > > * common name: wiki.hackspaces.org
> > > * issuer: CN=Let's Encrypt Authority X3,O=Let's Encrypt,C=US
> > > > GET / HTTP/1.1
> > > > User-Agent: curl/7.29.0
> > > > Host: wiki.hackerspaces.org
> > > > Accept: */*
> > > >
> > > < HTTP/1.1 504 Gateway Time-out
> > > < Server: nginx
> > > < Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2020 22:03:40 GMT
> > > < Content-Type: text/html
> > > < Content-Length: 160
> > > < Connection: keep-alive
> > > <
> > > <html>
> > > <head><title>504 Gateway Time-out</title></head>
> > > <body>
> > > <center><h1>504 Gateway Time-out</h1></center>
> > > <hr><center>nginx</center>
> > > </body>
> > > </html>
> > > * Connection #0 to host wiki.hackerspaces.org left intact
> > > ```
> > >
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 2:50 PM Karl <gmkarl at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 3:22 PM \0xDynamite
> > > > > <dreamingforward at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > So which do you prefer: accountability or anonymity? The
> > > > > > > > power goes
> > > > > > > > both ways. Pick one.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This is the cypherpunks mailing list? Weren't
> > > > > > > cypherpunks advocates of anonimity or something?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Geez man, can't you pick up on it when someone's trying to teach
> > > > > > you something?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Anonymity and accountability are two contrary aims. If you want
> > > > > > one,
> > > > > > you don't get the other. Get it?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > but all those things are controlled by political
> > > > > > > > > power. 'information flow' is controlled by US corporations
> > > > > > > > > at a global scale for instance.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > No these things are not just controlled by political power.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I mean, abstract mathematics is obviously NOT controlled
> > > > > > > by political power, but all the infrastructure clearly is.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > No, contrary to your anarcho-punk philosophy, all power is not
> > > > > > held in
> > > > > > politics. Much of the hardware is controlled by base economic
> > > > > > forces
> > > > > > of simply wanting to get money. Snowden is a sheep in
> > > > > > whistleblower
> > > > > > clothing -- his "knowledge" of seekrit powers in tech devices is
> > > > > > bullshit. There are also social forces driving things.
> > > > > > Unfortunately
> > > > > > the powers that run the world are at level 100 or so, while the
> > > > > > people
> > > > > > are generally at LVL 20 or less, so they get mystified, used,
> > > > > > confused, and paranoid. You've fallen under it because you don't
> > > > > > have mastery of the tech. That's all. Get a degree and become a
> > > > > > real
> > > > > > expert or learn by yourself by following paths online, like the
> > > > > > one I
> > > > > > put on hackerspaces.org (OneTruePath). OR, get this, simply be
> > > > >
> > > > > 504 Gateway Error over here, and not on archive.org .
> > > > >
> > > > > > respectful to other people who HAVE done this work and learn
> > > > > > something
> > > > > > from THEM.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Until then, you're just a loudmouth.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Point being, cryptography by itself will get you
> > > > > > > nowhere, AND cryptography is a pretty toxic tool in the hands of
> > > > > > > the political powers that control its practical application.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cryptography by itself *has* gotten us nowhere, because nothing we
> > > > > > REALLY wanted to do required going against the law. And what is
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > that we REALLY want to do? (hmm, free society, creative culture,
> > > > > > radical love, ....)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > \0xD
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 09:58:31 +1100
> From: Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net>
> To: cypherpunks at lists.cpunks.org
> Subject: Re: How Do We Escape Computer Controlled Propaganda Flow
> Message-ID: <20201109225831.GB1391165 at eye.freedbms.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> On Mon, Nov 09, 2020 at 01:59:51PM -0500, Karl wrote:
> > On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 1:40 PM Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 <punks at tfwno.gf>
> > wrote:
> > > On Mon, 9 Nov 2020 05:52:02 -0500
> > > Karl <gmkarl at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Many of us have ways to make the world right,
> > > > but so long as our actions can be predicted, it doesn't seem easy to
> > > > pursue them, and pursuing them may have consequences.
> > >
> > >
> > > I don't think prediction is the problem but numbers. If enough
> > > people want to burn down amazon and google, the 'prediction' won't stop
> > > them.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Does anyone have advice on what software developers can do during this
> > > > time, to help the situation?
> > >
> > > how can computer programers fix a political problem?
> >
> > I stand by blockchain technologies that prevent the isolation of
> > communities and provide immutable public records. Cryptography can
> > make votes unalterable,
>
> Cryptography unfortunately can't stop the dead from voting.
>
>
> > dialogue unhidable. Math could show clear
> > statistics of what influences behavior and information flow, and for
> > whom.
> >
> > But computer programers share with you the malady that problems are
> > for 'fixing'.
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Personally, I have no idea how to communicate with people who refuse
> > > > to harm anyone, to work on solutions with them.
> > >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2020 20:03:21 -0300
> From: "Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0" <punks at tfwno.gf>
> To: <cypherpunks at lists.cpunks.org>
> Subject: Re: How Do We Escape Computer Controlled Propaganda Flow
> Message-ID: <20201109230357.324F411C036D at pglaf.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> On Mon, 9 Nov 2020 16:36:14 -0600
> "\\0xDynamite" <dreamingforward at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Really? I know how to find philes I want -- if I need them. Do you?
> > >
> > > what files are you talking about? the_bible.pdf?
> >
> > Lolz, that one's legal to copy,
>
>
> 'legal' according to whom? Oh yeah 'legal' according to your government
> masters.
>
>
> > for the most part. Why did you make a
> > personal attack? Are you unable to use reason alone?
>
> I can pretty well call you an idiot while shredding to pieces your nonsense.
> The 'personal attack' is just a side note, snowflake. Not to mention where
> is the personal attack, anyway? You are an evil theocratic nutcase.
>
>
>
> >
> > > > > This is the cypherpunks mailing list? Weren't cypherpunks
> > > > > advocates of anonimity or something?
> > > >
> > > > Geez man, can't you pick up on it when someone's trying to teach you
> > > > something?
> > > >
> > > > Anonymity and accountability are two contrary aims. If you want one,
> > > > you don't get the other. Get it?
> > >
> > > dude. What do you think you're teaching me, exactly? *I* pointed
> > > out *first* that 'accountable' voting and anonimity are at odds. Learn 2
> > > read.
> >
> > Regardless of your anarchist philosophy, you seek leaders.
>
>
> What the fuck are you taking about, son. Oh, you're changing the subject
> after realizing that you were 'teaching' me the very same thing *I*
> mentioned first.
>
>
>
> > Perhaps
> > because deep in your DNA you know these questions were already
> > answered. So, if you have leaders, you'll want accountability.
>
>
> what - the fuck - are you talking about. I know that the problem is the
> cowardly fucktards like you, your bible and your 'leaders', and I don't
> 'want leaders'.
>
>
> > > > No, contrary to your anarcho-punk philosophy, all power is not held in
> > > > politics. Much of the hardware is controlled by base economic forces
> > > > of simply wanting to get money.
> > >
> > > all of the hardware is manufactured by corporations that are
> > > just arms of the government. So like I said, at the root there's only
> > > political power.
> >
> > Corps are not just arms of the government,
>
> of course they are.
>
>
> > unless you want to talk about octopus-type arms of the all-seeing-eye. In
> > the octopus, each
> > arm is an individual and acts separately, but they share at least some
> > common desire or core. It could be survival in the case of America,
> > at this point.
>
>
> lawl. Are you drunk? Or is that your 'religious' insanity showing again?
>
>
>
> >
> > > > Snowden is a sheep in whistleblower clothing -- his "knowledge" of
> > > > seekrit powers in tech devices is bullshit.
> > >
> > > not sure how snowden got into the picture? Oh sorry yeah. You're
> > > ranting.
> >
> > You're not sure. That's a good start.
>
>
> I was mocking you. "I'm not sure" meant "what the fuck has snowden got to do
> with anything".
>
>
> >
> > > > You've fallen under it because you don't have mastery of the tech.
> > >
> > > wut
> >
> > The response of the nubile who's been caught, wanting to know how I
> > can know something that you never revealed.
>
>
> WUT - "wut" means what-are-you-talking-about - again.
>
> So far you've shown you don't know what you're talking about. As always. So
> I'm anything but a 'surprised nubile'.
>
>
> >
> > > > Get a degree and become a real expert or learn by yourself by
> > > > following paths online
> > >
> > > what do you want me to learn, exactly?
> >
> > Some real computer science, or at least some programming, maybe math.
>
>
> I know c++, python and assembler among other languages. Is that enough? Oh
> wait, knowing how to program computers has fuck to do with any real solution
> to political problems, go figure.
>
>
> >
> > > > simply be respectful to other people who HAVE done this work
> > >
> > > LMAO! What 'work' are you talking about
> >
> > Mastering the tech that you say is controlled by governments, duh.
>
>
> OK, you are just another government agent parroting the lie that fucktards
> are 'free' because they (you) made a website with more government propaganda
> and know how to 'program' some javashit malware.
>
>
>
> > > > Until then, you're just a loudmouth.
> > >
> > > a jew-fascist like you shouldn't badmouth his betters. Your
> > > knowledge of political philosophy is a lot worse than non-existent. Your
> > > knowledge of 'tech' is prolly just as bad.
> >
> > You're just being a loudmouth. Either have some real Truth, skills,
> > or try somewhere else than cypherpunks to get relevance.
>
>
> uh oh. I think calling out governmetn assholes like you is a relevant thing
> for 'cypherpunks'.
>
>
>
> >
> > > > Cryptography by itself *has* gotten us nowhere, because nothing we
> > > > REALLY wanted to do required going against the law.
> > >
> > > what 'law' are you talking about here?
> > >
> > > > And what is it that we REALLY want to do? (hmm, free society,
> > > > creative culture,
> > > > radical love)
> > >
> > > those things are obviously against all government laws. So which
> > > law is this law you mentioned?
> >
> > Tell me, punk, is the law more powerful than Man?
>
>
> again, what nonsense are you babbling. Answer what law were you talking
> about. You can't answer because you can't even keep track of your ignorant,
> fascist rants.
>
> Instead of 'learning' how to 'program' a stupid ARPANET WEBSITE you should
> go to the library and learn political philosophy, for starters.
>
>
> >
> > Marxos
>
>
> ------------------------------
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> End of cypherpunks Digest, Vol 89, Issue 27
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