UN invitation for Cypherpunks

[Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0]

On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 19:04:43 -0500
Karl <gmkarl at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 6:21 PM Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 <punks at tfwno.gf> wrote:
> >

> >         Sorry that's not a difference in language but a difference in core philosophy.
> 
> Sounds like we have different philosophies on what to call a language.


	No. Sounds like you're being evasive and ignoring the plain statements I make. 


> 
> >         You're claiming you know nobody is evil, so 1)you think you're omniscient(which is crazy) and 2)are ignoring reality, because evil is plain to see around you.
> 
> No, I just have a different core philosophy from how you are speaking.
> Like most things, what is evil is an _opinion_, 


	Ok, so now you're an amoralist, and this is game over for you Karl. In the real world morality is not a matter of 'opinion'. 



> so you don't have to
> be omniscient to believe nobody is.  Everybody has different opinions.

	meaningless handwaving. 

 
> >         So what you actually do is *wrongly assume* some people are innocent IGNORING the plain evidence to the contrary.
> 
> I just use a different definition of innocence, where everybody fits mine.


	so you have your own newspeak that only you understand, and that is detached from reality. 


> 
> >         And let me repeat : I am not 'casting' i.e. wrongfully accusing people of being evil or misrepresenting them as evil. They ARE evil.
> 
> It sounds like you believe in your opinion very strongly, and would
> like others to also hold it?

	Is that an opinion you have? 
	

> 
> > > Talking about people being evil _other_ than the powerholders, appears
> > > to be a culture that is spread to prevent revolution.
> >
> >
> >         The powerholders are not the only evil people out there. Their supporters are evil too. And I don't see at all how my views can 'prevent revolution'.
> 
> When you deride possible allies as evil, you could be preventing an
> alliance with them.


	yes thank you for your advice. I mean, your opinion. 



> 
> > > > > "Nazi", which you just said with accusation,
> > > > > is a common enemy image taught in america.
> > > >
> > > >         Indeed, and I'm using it to underscode the fact that it is the US cunts who are the real nazis.
> > >
> > > I think you are simply reinforcing my point.
> >
> >
> >         Right back at you.
> 
> Anyway, USAians don't respond well to attack.  They get defensive and
> drop bombs.  I'm not sure the message will be heard well over here,
> but I understand other countries hold nazis as evil, too.


	looks like you have attack and defense mixed up. Which is typical of US subjects and amoralists. 



> >
> >         You keep doing what you've been doing from the start. Siding with criminals because of a baseless 'presumption of innocence'. And notice the irony here. You fail to make a rational argument so you just cause more 'conflict'.
> 
> I'm not sure of all the things you say here ... I'm on a different
> page from you; I don't see that they are true.  But maybe I'll
> apologise for accusing you.  Do you feel you are preaching conflict?


	I 'feel' like you've reached troll level Karl. 



> >
> >         From what I've seen through the arpanet there are no anarchists in the US. Only posers.
> >         And the few actual anarchists that might exist are probably in jail.
> 
> Eh you probably used google.  Anarchists don't have a lot of
> advertisement dollars to get their websites up high on the search
> results.


	I didnt use google, so you're wrong. Again. 

> 
> Yeah they're mostly in jail, hiding, or homeless.  There are a lot of
> them, though.


	I don't think so. Unless "a lot" is 10 or 20. 



> >
> >
> >         I take it the way you said it. You think I don't know what I'm doing.
> 
> Sounds like you do?  Am I getting in the way of anything important?
> How does somebody who refuses to blame, help?


	The only thing you've been doing here Karl is blame me. You're blaming me because in your mind(not in reality), I "preach conflict" and "speak harm". 
	
	So, oops, your stupid little game is over. You're accusing me of what YOU are doing, so you're a self-refuting hypocrite, and worse, your charges are false. 

	And to top it off, whether something is 'harm' or not, is, get this, JUST AN OPINION. According to you at least. 



> >         Look! This is not murder! This a New and Improved Kind of Argument. Et cetera.
> 
> How about, "new people stating they are libertarians whom others state
> have murdered people" (which could be said much faster if we had a
> specific scenario in mind)?


	No. The correct expression is FAKE LIBERTARIANS. And I don't need you to tell me how to distort, lie, and be a self-refuting hypocrite who wants to oppose something while pretending he also wants to avoid 'conflict'. 



> 
> > > if I wanted to produce an atmosphere where people work
> > > together to accomplish things.
> >
> >
> >         If you are 'working' with a bunch of fake libertarians the only thing you will accomplish  is more tyranny. So at this point there are two options : either you're openly admiting that you're on evil's side, or you just say whatever NONSENSE crosses your mind, to 'win' the argument.
> 
> Whaddaya say we enslave all the evil people and make them fix
> everything for us.  I was brainwashed to enslave people, I could run
> with it until I realised I was doing it.


	....meaningless. 



> >
> >
> >         I'm not 'being turned' against fake libertarians. I am choosing of my own free will to be against those assholes.
> 
> I thought it was the "jew-nazis" or something, earlier.

	
	Many fake libertarians are of course 'judeo-fascists' or jew-nazis. Should be obvious to anybody with half a clue about political reality.



> >         Yes, I mean your claim that I'm using 'divisiveness causing terms', and further that I get them from  US 'culture'. I just used plain coloquial terms.
> 
> So, you came from a community that westerners desecrated the culture
> of, leaving residents with a language of harm, often punishing people
> who didn't accept it.  That's every country on earth!

	
	here again there's this allusion to 'language of harm'. People who use free speech are being BLAMED and ACCUSED of not using Karl's official and approved 'language'. 



> >         Also your assumption that divisiveness is bad is plainly wrong. I certainly want a DIVISION between truth and lies, between people who want freedom and technofascists (like jim bell), between people who want freedom and people who support trump, etc.
> 
> Dividing concepts for clarity is good.  Dividing people is bad and
> makes the most the powerful, most combative group win until others get
> tired of giving tribute and actually gang up and stop them.


	People are divided by their actions. Evil people are in their own divided category. 



> Huh.  Nobody's ever said that to me before.  I've been through a lot
> in my life, maybe I'm not naive anymore.  I do offer trust to people
> that I know will harm me, as a philosophy, though.  It reduces the
> harm, usually.  I do try to keep myself safe when doing that.


	Sounds like manipulative nonsense. Not that I really care. 



> >         Still, at the very beginning you said that the status quo is maintened using whatever 'divisive technique' you accuse me of using on this list. Your claim was and is false, I showed that to be the case, and you just carried on, without ever acknowledging you were wrong.
> 
> You said you "showed that to be the case"; given I disagreed with you,
> it makes sense that I didn't notice this.  Which part do you see as
> doing this?


	^^^^ dishonest evasiveness from Karl. 


> >         So again, the power of govcorp is maintened by real crimes on a planetary scale, not by pointing at the division between good and evil in a mailing list.
> 
> We built a wall across our southern border the past few years,
> imprisoning our immigrants, who are a huge part of our professional
> and manual workforce, because half the country was seeing them as
> evil.  The people in areas with few jobs voted to remove the workforce
> from areas distant from them, in the hope of having more jobs.
> [analysis missing significant data]


	yes and? Is that a bunch of opinions you have? 




> >
> >         You can start supporting me at any time. So far you've just attacked me. And failed =)
> 
> Eh, sometimes I wonder if you might see it as friendly =)


	What is it that I should see as friendly? Your baseless and self-refuting blaming? Your false charges are an objective attack. 




> i had to learn deniable languages.  things i valued would suddenly go
> horribly wrong, if i didn't play along, and this would worsen if i
> continued resisting.  i was evicted from my homes.  me and my friends
> had permanent injuries.  i'm the only person on earth with a child's
> bone cancer in my adult salivary gland (as of time of cancer).  i
> freak out when i think of these things.  just search for 'sadistic
> ritual abuse' and 'gangstalking' on the internet, you'll get the idea.


	"bone cancer in my adult salivary gland"  
		
	outright trolling. 



> >
> >
> >         OK so you meet a guy who says he's a libertarian and you 'trust' him. When you 'trust' him the guy confess that he's actually a US mercenary and that he murders children for fun. Now what? You don't understand that the guy pretends to be something he is not?
> 
> when people come from somewhere different from you, they act
> different, they do things for different reasons.  understanding them
> means having an idea of what it is like to be them, and do what they
> do.


	empty, evasive, handwavy preaching. 




> you seem to act like the only way to talk is by criticizing others.
> you said something similar on-list ot me once, some months ago.  i was
> forced to learn to speak that way.  i'd rather die repeatedly, at this
> point, than insult people because i was enslaved to, without any idea
> of what i am accomplishing by doing it.


	The only thing you've done here is try to criticize me Karl, and royally failed too. 

	The important fact at hand is that you are a self-refuting hypocrite who criticizes people while trying to deny that he criticizes people. 



> > > But I was just referring to the bits of USA culture that you happen to
> > > hold and continuously express.  It was probably kinda mean for me to
> > > talk as if we were conspiracy-buddies.
> >
> >
> >         Oh, ok. But by now you know that US 'culture' is pretty much non-existent, and so your brainwashing shouldn't have any effect on you anymore?
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean here.


	It should be easy to understand. When you find out you've been lied to (which you're calling brainwashing), you stop believing the lies.

	You can't still claim that you're 'brainwashed'. If you were still 'brainwashed' then you wouldn't know it. 



> >
> >         I'm waiting for the real libertarians to join.
> 
> I don't understand.  Who are these real libertarians?  Is the list
> about libertarianism?


	Of course. And your question is ridiculous. 

	..........................................................................
	Timothy C. May         | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,  
	tcmay at netcom.com       | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
	408-688-5409           | knowledge, reputations, information markets, 
	W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA  | black markets, collapse of governments.	



	collapse of governments, anarchy. Or liberalism. Now rebranded 'libertarianism'. 

	

> I don't see why the things you say are implied.  If it helps, yes I
> hold a sense of knowledge, that somebody is not evil, while they
> torture and murder people.  

	So you're a  psycho. 


> I had to do this to emotionally survive as
> a citizen of my country.

	An amoralist psycho who is an accomplice of the US nazis, using the fake excuse that he 'had to do it'. 



> 
> This is what disruptors and apathetic people say. 


	You're pretty cheeky aren't you? Keep blaming people for being 'disruptors' while ranting against 'blame'. 


> It's pretty easy to
> agree so long as lobbyists ignore you and you can keep people with
> rough experiences safe.  Giving provides a _lot_ of capacity.  You
> might pay for your home.  We could pay _you_ to live in the community
> home, based on the money made by the community work.


	bla bla bla - rant unrelated to anything. 



> > >
> > > What I'm saying, is that I don't understand what you are about.  Your
> > > remarks seem very obscure to me.
> >
> >
> >         well, I think my views on fake libertarians are rather clear. Example : jim bell, his patents, and his crony capitalist hero musk.
> 
> Sounds like he grew up in the USA.


	yeah well. Not the point. I know people who hold the same technofascist views and didn't grow up in the US cesspool. 


> > > I don't understand.  You seem to blame everybody here?  
> >
> >
> >         I think I made it clear who I blame and for what. Check the archives.  
> 
> Too big, sir.  Too big to check.  It wasn't clear enough, for me to remember.


	so now you're admiting you don't pay any attention to what people say. You don't remember what people told you in their previous message, or even in the current one.



> >
> >         So how do you distinguish revenge and self defense?  
> 
> In revenge, the other party is hurt comparable to how you were hurt.
> In self defense, your hurt is prevented, and the other party is hurt
> only if it is needed to hurt them, to not yourself be further hurt.


	Ok, so defense prevents damage. Fair enough. 

> 
> So, if 2 parties engage in revenge with each other, you get an
> escalating war.  

	If you break my leg and then I break your leg, we're even. There's no escalation in what you call 'revenge'. Also, what you call 'revenge' is a form of justice, although a limited one. 


> If 2 parties engage in self defence with each other,
> you get a safe community.

	the wording is awkward. 

	And my original point fully stands. There's nothing wrong with 'blame'. 


>> Ever heard of the flu farce? We're now living in an even more overt totalitarian dystopia  because of the flu  
>> farce, the future of humanity got a lot darker overnight and people on
>> this list are still discussing how amazing crony capitalist musk is.
>> Priceless.

> 
> It's the same as the electricity farce, 


	No it isn't. There may be some parallels but they are irrelevant to what I said. So now you've ignored a very serious problem by going off on an idiotic tangent. 


> the shoe farce, the fridge
> farce, etc etc.  Can you believe everybody is paying to run a 24/7
> fluid compressor in their home 


	I don't have a fridge, go figure. 


> when you can preserve food effortlessly
> for free by drying it?
> 
> People do read what you say, but yeah we're all tiny bits of a huge species.

	they read it? 



 
> >         You are invoking the 'intellectual authority' of 'older survivors'(whoever/whatever they are). 

> Experience.  Not intellect.  Ask the anarchists who are not in jail,
> how to stay out of it.  Are you one?


	I wasn't talking about how to stay out of jail, but about moral philosophy. 



> 
> > > > > >         Tracing crimes back to their authors, that is assigning 'blame' is a very important defense mechanism.  

> > > > > It's pretty obvious that everything is caused by a myriad of people,
> > > > > most of whom weren't trying to make it happen. 
 
> > > >         Ok so you clearly keep trying to protect criminals.  

> > > Yeah I'll definitely defend people wrongly suffering for crimes.  

> >         I'm talking about actual crimes.  
> 
> What's your native language?  We often use 'label' words that don't
> reflect reality, in the USA.  Where a "crime" is often something that
> literally breaks a law, instead of something that is immorral or
> whatnot.  Lots of things that help people are crimes, over here.


	My native language is irrelevant. I am using the word crime to mean a violation of personal rights. I am obviously NOT using the government's definion of 'crime'.


> 
> > > > > >         notice that professor turd is hysterically promoting 'antiblame' with his insane denial of the existence of govcorp.  

> >         No comment on that one eh. Because you don't want 'divisiveness'. You want the US military agent professor turd to not be 'disrupted', poor soul.  
> 
> you mean PR?  I don't see the thing you said being true, nor do I see
> it as making logical sense.  Could you say something clearer instead
> of 'antiblame' at least?  I made that word up and now you are using
> it.


	And now you pretend to not understand your own words? Priceless. 

	Your little game is over Karl. You blame me but you don't blame professor turd and his NUKE HIROSHIMA NAGASAKI DRESDEN 'rhetoric'. You are a little fraud Karl. 



> >         Also, it seems to me that lies lose their power the moment you realize you were lied to so I'm not sure how you think this 'brainwashing' is still affecting you.  
> 
> Okay. Punk is possibly a jerk who hasn't been through anything rough.


	Really. And how does that follow from my comment? 



> > > > > it's what happens to activists once they're targeted in the usa.  they
> > > > > get forced to disrupt activist communities.  usually unwittingly, but
> > > > > often they are overtly coerced to do this.  
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >         so you were forced to work as a US govt agent?  
> > >
> > > I dunno, nobody like overtly told me this.  I don't know whether it's
> > > the government.  
> >
> >
> >         Ok but when you say forced you don't literally mean there was physical violence, or other threats involved.  
> 
> You know what?  It's none of your business.  I'll give different
> reasons for things.


	LMAO!!! You've been ranting on a public forum for months about your 'brainwashing' and what you allegedly did, but now it's 'none of my business'? Indeed, I don't really care about it, except as a means to show that your 'arguments' here are a joke. 


> I'll give different  reasons for things.

	OK, so you just candidly admited you're going to make up yet another story. Cool. 


  
> > >
> > > You sound like law enforcement here, Juan.  
> >
> >
> >         If you mean natural law enforcement, yes. The kind of law that would take cops and turn them into minced meat.  
> 
> "People are moral agents responsible for their crimes!"  I have to
> remember "crime" means "wrong thing" to you, not "violation of a
> government law".  Explains a lot of our miscommunication.


	you finally figured that out? A bit too late tho. And it doesn't change your own self-refuting 'anti blame' hypocrisy anyway. 


	So this is it. Evil is an 'opinion' and you thouroughly refuted yourself. Cheers.