UN invitation for Cypherpunks

[Karl]

On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 6:21 PM Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 <punks at tfwno.gf> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 15:56:40 -0500
> Karl <gmkarl at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 3:29 PM Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 <punks at tfwno.gf> wrote:
>
> > >         yes, that's what US nazis do. Not me. I'm not 'casting' people as evil. I am pointing out they ARE actually evil. Two completely different things.
> >
> > Nah, that's just the difference between the language you're speaking
> > and the one I am.  I prefer to always speak knowing nobody is evil.
> > Helps a lot when I'm wrong about who might be.
>
>         Sorry that's not a difference in language but a difference in core philosophy.

Sounds like we have different philosophies on what to call a language.

>         You're claiming you know nobody is evil, so 1)you think you're omniscient(which is crazy) and 2)are ignoring reality, because evil is plain to see around you.

No, I just have a different core philosophy from how you are speaking.
Like most things, what is evil is an _opinion_, so you don't have to
be omniscient to believe nobody is.  Everybody has different opinions.

>         So what you actually do is *wrongly assume* some people are innocent IGNORING the plain evidence to the contrary.

I just use a different definition of innocence, where everybody fits mine.

>         And let me repeat : I am not 'casting' i.e. wrongfully accusing people of being evil or misrepresenting them as evil. They ARE evil.

It sounds like you believe in your opinion very strongly, and would
like others to also hold it?

> > Talking about people being evil _other_ than the powerholders, appears
> > to be a culture that is spread to prevent revolution.
>
>
>         The powerholders are not the only evil people out there. Their supporters are evil too. And I don't see at all how my views can 'prevent revolution'.

When you deride possible allies as evil, you could be preventing an
alliance with them.

> > > > "Nazi", which you just said with accusation,
> > > > is a common enemy image taught in america.
> > >
> > >         Indeed, and I'm using it to underscode the fact that it is the US cunts who are the real nazis.
> >
> > I think you are simply reinforcing my point.
>
>
>         Right back at you.

Anyway, USAians don't respond well to attack.  They get defensive and
drop bombs.  I'm not sure the message will be heard well over here,
but I understand other countries hold nazis as evil, too.

> > > > "Jew" is held by a smaller
> > > > group as an enemy image in america.
> > >
> > >         the idea that jews are poor blameless victims is another part of your US cunt propaganda and so I'm setting the record straight. Yet another thing that upsets you because you are on the enemies-of-freedom side.
> >
> > You still preach conflict needlessly.
>
>         You keep doing what you've been doing from the start. Siding with criminals because of a baseless 'presumption of innocence'. And notice the irony here. You fail to make a rational argument so you just cause more 'conflict'.

I'm not sure of all the things you say here ... I'm on a different
page from you; I don't see that they are true.  But maybe I'll
apologise for accusing you.  Do you feel you are preaching conflict?

> > > > "Nonsense" is a thought-stopping word
> > > > used in American media in ways that prevent people from listening to others.
> > > >
> > > > These things don't mean you're trying to defend america, of course.  They
> > > > mean you end up doing so.
> > >
> > >         Your reasoning is NONSENSE. I. e. logically flawed. I am telling the truth whereas the US cunts are lying. Your problem is that you're pretending to be unable to tell apart truth and lies.
> >
> > Having been in multiple anarchist camps in the USA and seen them
> > fall,it is pretty obvious that sowing conflict is how peaceful
> > communities are disrupted.
>
>
>         From what I've seen through the arpanet there are no anarchists in the US. Only posers.
>         And the few actual anarchists that might exist are probably in jail.

Eh you probably used google.  Anarchists don't have a lot of
advertisement dollars to get their websites up high on the search
results.

Yeah they're mostly in jail, hiding, or homeless.  There are a lot of
them, though.

> > >         Also the claim that I'm defeding the US is just...insane. Or a blatant lie. Doubly ridiculous because your story is that  I'm defending the US because I'm too stupid to understand what I'm doing. Ha ha.
> >
> > Nah, I don't quite mean these things.  The way you take the only stuff
> > we can hear, and twist it to productively counter what we are saying,
> > is great, and keeps you safe.  It's better if you can do it without
> > amplifying the conflict, which quickly gets you censored in some way.
>
>
>         I take it the way you said it. You think I don't know what I'm doing.

Sounds like you do?  Am I getting in the way of anything important?
How does somebody who refuses to blame, help?

> > > > "Fake" : disregards expressions of others
> > >
> > >         lawl. It is a description. Fake libertarians. If you don't know them then you should do your homework and shut the fuck up before you know what you're talking about. Unless you are trying to defend fake libertarians of course. Which is what you are de facto doing.
> >
> > I might say "new kinds of libertarians" rather than "fake
> > libertarians"
>
>
>         so you're bragging about lying? Who are you? The chief editor of the Universal Newspeak Dictionary? Fake libertarians are not fake and war is peace.
>
>         Look! This is not murder! This a New and Improved Kind of Argument. Et cetera.

How about, "new people stating they are libertarians whom others state
have murdered people" (which could be said much faster if we had a
specific scenario in mind)?

What stimulates defensiveness is a _different_ attribute than what is
true.  You can have false things that upset people, false things that
people appreciate, true things that upset people, and true things that
people appreciate.  4 different options.

> > if I wanted to produce an atmosphere where people work
> > together to accomplish things.
>
>
>         If you are 'working' with a bunch of fake libertarians the only thing you will accomplish  is more tyranny. So at this point there are two options : either you're openly admiting that you're on evil's side, or you just say whatever NONSENSE crosses your mind, to 'win' the argument.

Whaddaya say we enslave all the evil people and make them fix
everything for us.  I was brainwashed to enslave people, I could run
with it until I realised I was doing it.

> > > > > technocrats/outright agents. I gave pretty
> > > >
> > > > "Agents": an enemy image held on this list
> > >
> > >
> > >         There obviously are outright agents on this list. You apparently confessed being a former(...) one. And anybody who promotes the interest of govcorp whether directly paid by govcorp or not is a propaganda agent of govcorp. You ARE what you do.
> >
> > I don't care that I am at fault for all the problems.  Nor do I care
> > if people think others are.  I care what we do next.  It is obvious
> > that we are all being turned against each other.  It is unproductive
> > to act on it.
>
>
>         I'm not 'being turned' against fake libertarians. I am choosing of my own free will to be against those assholes.

I thought it was the "jew-nazis" or something, earlier.

> > As soon as you waste time turning us against somebody again, you are
> > not helping anything get done.
> >
> > > > > concrete examples of the garbage they post,
> > > >
> > > > " garbage": an American media term causing people to ignore the expressions
> > > > of others
> > >
> > >         Dude. You crossed that line more than once. Enough.
> >
> > do you mean "America" or "term causing divisiveness" or ...?
>
>
>         Yes, I mean your claim that I'm using 'divisiveness causing terms', and further that I get them from  US 'culture'. I just used plain coloquial terms.

So, you came from a community that westerners desecrated the culture
of, leaving residents with a language of harm, often punishing people
who didn't accept it.  That's every country on earth!

If you turn on a television, for example, you see people yelling at
each other and fighting.  In _real_, _happy_ communities, that is not
what happens.  It is only what happens when somebody enslaves you and
ignores you.  But everybody is copying the televisions, now.

>         Also your assumption that divisiveness is bad is plainly wrong. I certainly want a DIVISION between truth and lies, between people who want freedom and technofascists (like jim bell), between people who want freedom and people who support trump, etc.

Dividing concepts for clarity is good.  Dividing people is bad and
makes the most the powerful, most combative group win until others get
tired of giving tribute and actually gang up and stop them.

> > > > > showing that I promote evil and now you're
> > > >
> > > > Here I see you trying to share honestly with me, but it's kind of over my
> > > > head because of my short attention span and naive trust =/
> > >
> > >         uh oh. 'naive trust'. And now you think you can further take me for an idiot? How arrogantly 'american' of you.
> >
> > So, if you think I believe I am taking you for an idiot, you don't
> > understand what I am saying.
> >
> > Why do you respond to the phrase "naive trust"?
>
>
>         Because I don't think you are naively trusting anything. I don't think you are naive, at all. If I were to claim that "I'm extremely polite", you'd laugh at me, no? Same thing here.

Huh.  Nobody's ever said that to me before.  I've been through a lot
in my life, maybe I'm not naive anymore.  I do offer trust to people
that I know will harm me, as a philosophy, though.  It reduces the
harm, usually.  I do try to keep myself safe when doing that.

> > > > I want to
> > > > connect with you and I don't know how.
> > I'm also not thinking about what I write too much, and have very poor
> > relation skills.
> >
> > > > > just outright lying. The 'conflict' you want to
> > > >
> > > > You seem to understand better than me that because behavior is obvious,
> > > > NOBODY CAN POSSIBLY LIE.
> > >
> > >         what
> >
> > It's pretty obvious I knocked over the flowers, because the flowers
> > are knocked over, there's dirt on my hands, I'm acting embarrassed, my
> > boot prints are near them, I'm the only clumsy person in the
> > community, and 3 people who tend the flowers chuckled when I said "I
> > didn't knock over the flowers."  When I said this, what I was
> > literally saying was, "I'm scared and embarrassed about knocking over
> > the flowers, and I don't trust you guys well enough yet to say it
> > straight" and many more similar things.  But many people will be
> > confused unless it's said straight eventually.
> >
> > > > > avoid entails calling out the frauds on this list. I guess you want the
> > > > > frauds to be protected from 'conflict'?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Everybody is doing this.  All of us.  You need protection the most here,
> > > > because I tried to pin this murder on you.
> > >
> > >         what
> >
> > ehh sounds like i took this monologue of mine with you too far.
>
>
>         Yes. Your side of the discussion is more of a monologue. Your position can't be rationally defended so you just ignore the objections to it.

What am I ignoring, here?

> > > >         As to the way your nation keeps the status quo, they do it by
> > > > > commiting an endless string of all possible crimes from theft to mass
> > > > > murder to anything inbetween.
> > > >
> > > > "Mass murder?  You don't murder your family members to make profit!  Oh!
> > > > Well I guess I'll be coming out on top, then."  Stop supporting our
> > > > criminal decadence by helping us compete in our community wargames.
> > >
> > >         what
> >
> > skipping this one cause you sound taxed.
>
>
>         Still, at the very beginning you said that the status quo is maintened using whatever 'divisive technique' you accuse me of using on this list. Your claim was and is false, I showed that to be the case, and you just carried on, without ever acknowledging you were wrong.

You said you "showed that to be the case"; given I disagreed with you,
it makes sense that I didn't notice this.  Which part do you see as
doing this?

>         So again, the power of govcorp is maintened by real crimes on a planetary scale, not by pointing at the division between good and evil in a mailing list.

We built a wall across our southern border the past few years,
imprisoning our immigrants, who are a huge part of our professional
and manual workforce, because half the country was seeing them as
evil.  The people in areas with few jobs voted to remove the workforce
from areas distant from them, in the hope of having more jobs.
[analysis missing significant data]

> > > > And to state the obvious, I'm not doing anything of the sort. Last but not
> > > > > least, you're comparing me with the US nazi government? What is wrong with
> > > > > you.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I take such expressions seriously.  Gotta get off this list.
> > >
> > >
> > >         so it seems
> >
> > it's hard to get off this list =(  but i want to go back to supporting you.
>
>
>         You can start supporting me at any time. So far you've just attacked me. And failed =)

Eh, sometimes I wonder if you might see it as friendly =)

> > > > >         Hard to know what you mean. The frauds on this list understand me
> > > > > well.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > When I was severely coerced
> > >
> > >
> > >         BY WHO. Stop playing crazy and speak clearly or shut the fuck up.
> >
> > I DON'T KNOW.  Who the fuck tells their victims how to identify them
> > to authorities.
>
>
>         Ok, so if you were 'anonymously' coerced, then how was it done? You were sent messages saying "do this, or else..." ?

i freak out when i remember, man

but basically it was multiple channels, like a mafia or something.

i had to learn deniable languages.  things i valued would suddenly go
horribly wrong, if i didn't play along, and this would worsen if i
continued resisting.  i was evicted from my homes.  me and my friends
had permanent injuries.  i'm the only person on earth with a child's
bone cancer in my adult salivary gland (as of time of cancer).  i
freak out when i think of these things.  just search for 'sadistic
ritual abuse' and 'gangstalking' on the internet, you'll get the idea.

> > > >I was forced to speak backwards and didn't
> > > > understand it.  Then I was only able to talk about my torture in the
> > > > language I was forced to learn, which denied it, and I got no help.
> > > >
> > > > I don't understand frauds.
> > >
> > >         what? You don't understand that there are people who say they are 'libertarians' but are actually not? What part you don't understand about that?
> >
> > I've always done the prefer-simple-truth-and-trust thing.  People
> > tended to stop lying to me cause i would just give them trust, and I
> > never really learned about lying in much depth.
>
>
>         OK so you meet a guy who says he's a libertarian and you 'trust' him. When you 'trust' him the guy confess that he's actually a US mercenary and that he murders children for fun. Now what? You don't understand that the guy pretends to be something he is not?

when people come from somewhere different from you, they act
different, they do things for different reasons.  understanding them
means having an idea of what it is like to be them, and do what they
do.

> > > > What you say doesn't make literal sense to me, but you saying that it is
> > > > the only way to talk was how my torturers talked.
> > >
> > >         what
> >
> > holding off on replying to this cause of the number of "what"s.  we're
> > coming from pretty different assumptions, and i was expecting you to
> > infer a lot.  i don't know what yours are, either.
>
>
>         Yes. I think you just keep avoiding the main issue and going off in tangents.

"what" is a very short answer.

you seem to act like the only way to talk is by criticizing others.
you said something similar on-list ot me once, some months ago.  i was
forced to learn to speak that way.  i'd rather die repeatedly, at this
point, than insult people because i was enslaved to, without any idea
of what i am accomplishing by doing it.

> > >         So this sentece "With regard to what I'm a part of with you, I can't know"  makes no sense. But never mind, your overall anti-blame, pro-lies-and-propaganda stance is pretty clear.
> >
> > I thought I just explained that sentence.
> >
> > When you get brainwashed, they teach you to have traumatic flashbacks
> > when you think about things that could stop what you are trained to
> > do.  I stay unaware of some things I do.
>
>
>         Maybe you should explain what is this brainwashing you're refering to?  I never heard about people being 'taught to have traumatic flashbacks'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainwashing they torture you when you
do what they don't want, without any chance to process it, so when you
try to do it again in the future you can't, you relive the torture
instead.  i'm finding ways to move through some of it.  no therapy
yet.

>         I obviously do know about being part of some pseudo 'culture' and parroting whatever garbage other people around you parrot, and I'd describe that as a sort of brainwashing, or what fascists call 'education'. But if you're talking about a more specific kind of brainwashing, some 1984-like thing, then you should be more explicit.

that sounds more like the other stuff i was talking about.  i'm
curious about what it's like, the thing you describe.

> > But I was just referring to the bits of USA culture that you happen to
> > hold and continuously express.  It was probably kinda mean for me to
> > talk as if we were conspiracy-buddies.
>
>
>         Oh, ok. But by now you know that US 'culture' is pretty much non-existent, and so your brainwashing shouldn't have any effect on you anymore?

I'm not sure what you mean here.

> > > > Regardless, the claim that 'we' are both part of a 'brainwashing program'
> > > > > is sheer nonsense. If you want to claim that YOU are
> > > >
> > > > You're posting obsessively to a technofascist arpanet list, but I suppose
> > > > you are more deprogramming us than brainwashing us =)
> > >
> > >
> > >         yes a technonafascist arpanet list posing a something else. A fraud.
> >
> > So what are you doing here / what is the list about for you?
>
>
>         I'm waiting for the real libertarians to join.

I don't understand.  Who are these real libertarians?  Is the list
about libertarianism?

> > > > Really it's one of things they do to targeted communities.
> > >
> > >
> > >         And you know that because you worked for 'them'?
> >
> > Because I've been in a small number of targeted communities through
> > their collapse.
>
>
>         And you think they collapsed because they were 'disrupted' by govt agents...while also  claiming you know that nobody is evil?

I don't see why the things you say are implied.  If it helps, yes I
hold a sense of knowledge, that somebody is not evil, while they
torture and murder people.  I had to do this to emotionally survive as
a citizen of my country.

>         Here's a somewhat different explanation. They collapsed because people didn't agree on what to do, because they wanted different things. And yes, some of the members (or the majority) might have been PRETENDING to be something they were not.

This is what disruptors and apathetic people say.  It's pretty easy to
agree so long as lobbyists ignore you and you can keep people with
rough experiences safe.  Giving provides a _lot_ of capacity.  You
might pay for your home.  We could pay _you_ to live in the community
home, based on the money made by the community work.

> > > > Just speaking for the spirit of America that we forced down your throat.
> > >
> > >
> > >         lawl. Don't worry, you are a complete failure at forcing the 'spirit' of US cunts on me.
> >
> > You have our demon, and I tried to explain it to you a little.  It
> > doesn't die so long as you ride it around.  But I'm riding too.
>
>
>         I already refuted that. The US demon is the REAL WORLD actions(crimes) of millions of US govcorp employees. And I have no part in that.

I asked a question in my next reply.

>
>
>         The only US influence I acknowledge is Spooner. And only to the degree that 'he agrees with me'.  https://www.lysanderspooner.org/works
>
>
>
>
> >
> > Person A: "fuck you! stop doing your stupid stuff!"
> > Person B: "fuck you too!"
> >
> > Person A: "hey man, you seem really cool.  I get really hurt when that
> > stupid stuff happens, though."
> > Person B: "y'know I just do that stuff cause I'm angry ..."
> >
> > which of the above two interactions do you see yourself participating in?
>
>
>         none of the above.

as person A, what would you say to person B, who is doing stupid stuff
that's affecting you?

>
>
> >
> > What I'm saying, is that I don't understand what you are about.  Your
> > remarks seem very obscure to me.
>
>
>         well, I think my views on fake libertarians are rather clear. Example : jim bell, his patents, and his crony capitalist hero musk.

Sounds like he grew up in the USA.