punks at tfwno.gf
Tue Dec 8 15:08:50 PST 2020
On Tue, 8 Dec 2020 08:42:24 -0500
Karl <gmkarl at gmail.com> wrote:
> There's some truth to that but it seems mostly an organisation issue
> to me. We could run the whole world off of the discarded
> microcontrollers from a decade ago.
Well, I don't know about 'running the world', but I guess it would be nice to stop buying new microcontrollers because that would likely bankrupt the companies that produce them. OR, the govt would 'bail them out'...
> The factories and coding
> communities are in a feedback loop driven by profit and marketing,
> where they are remaking the same devices with higher specs, throwing
> out the old ones, and then writing more bloated code to run on the
> newer fast ones, so that they will have the same degree of human
> satisfaction as before.
yes, that's part of the scientific 'progress' I alluded to.
> So, like, once you have enough microcontrollers, which a single
> landfill could likely provide, you can often just keep reusing them
> for what you need.
> > Fact remains, it is a lot of work, so it's less likely to be done. It requires specialized knowledge and equipment so the number of people who could do it is small.
> Enter the makerspaces and hackerspaces, where people share these
> skills with the masses.
> Some of these places are entirely free. Some
> charge a membership fee, but may waive it if you offer trainings to
> the public.
> > That is true, but it's different from "yeah 3d printers! yeah 'printed' guns! yeah...now what?"
> As a targeted left-wing ex-activist, I'm surrounded by anti-gun
> marketing and have persistent fear of escalating myself on the
> terrorist watchlist (which I expect I am already at a permanent,
> well-defined spot on). Printed guns scare me for both of those
US right wingers like to talk about guns a lot but they are just talk. They also waste tons of money on guns, but at the end of the day these fake 'libertarian' true right wingers are completely subservient to their govcorp masters. At best they will use their guns to murder poor, brown, innocent people.
So guns are just a right wing meme and 'printed' guns are a techno right wing meme. The exact kind of meme an agent like professor turd uses for propaganda purposes.
> 3D printers and other consumer prototyping devices, on the other hand,
> seem to be for moving industry out of the factories, similar to how CD
> burners made USB drives.
Not sure what you mean by "CD burners made USB drives". What I do notice is that CDs have been mostly replaced by 'high tech' flash memory that's even more dependent than CDs on 'high tech' factories.
> When 2D copy machines and printers happened, so did community
> literature. Previously, powerful people controlled everything that
> was printed.
And now those same powerful people control everything through computers. In other words, this idea that copying machines, the ARPANET and the like make 'information free' is just another govt propaganda meme.
> > > I looked briefly for the article where hackers imaged the layers of
> > > chips and mapped all the semiconductors inside them, but I didn't find
> > > it. It provided for extraction of private keys.
> > Oh I've seen old articles about code being extracted from read protected pic microcontrollers. I bet it's a lot harder or impossible to do with 'modern' chips. (unless of course you are intel)
> It was harder then too. It was still done.
No it was not harder because it could be done with virtually no equipment.
> In my country all the land we "own" had people killed to make way for
> the "owners".
well, same here. Because the property rights of the 'natives' were not respected by the european turds who invaded america(the continent). So the problem isn't ownership, but actually NOT respecting (previous) ownership. Likewise, nation states claim ownership of the entire 'country' which is of course nuts and not compatible with actual personal property rights.
> We make progress on healing that. Previously the
> people who lived on it, were indeed responsible for it.
> Similarly, these chip manufacturers don't seem to be in the slightest
> taking responsibility for the impact of everyone using their chips.
> We need the ability to sway that.
That is certainly true.
> > The problem for me isn't tooling but actually getting a few pieces of any particular micro. I guess in the 'developed' world there's a lot more electronic garbage so it may be easier to find a 'supply' of a particular product that has a particular, documented micro. But still, if you want sizeable amounts of a particular component, it may not be easy to 'source' it from random trash.
> The solving of this problem was halted. It's not easy at the moment.
> But you can pull these out of any electronic device. You're clearly
> posting with one.
I'm posting with a >10 year old desktop PC.
> Does it have an FCC number? Are you able to share
> a photograph of its mainboard?
...but why on earth would I destroy my working (pre IME/PSP) computer? =)
> NOTE: I am not "authorised" to help
> repurpose, devices because a computer has me associated with
> terrorism. But somebody else could chime in and help, too. People
> like these tend to be pretty excited by hacking projects.
> On the other hand, what you say is totally true. There are so many
> chips out there that every one you recover is pretty different. You'd
> need to have hacking as your life pleasure, to make significant
> progress on that problem.
Or, taking your side of the argument, you'd need to identify a few common, mass produced products with especially high volumes so that you can easily find discarded ones. I don't know any product that fills those requiremetns tho.
> > ....not sure if you misread something ?
> Maybe I did. Maybe this is why we get into arguments more. It sounds
> like we have different beliefs and experiences about something.
Don't worry, it was just a small glitch =P
> As far as I knew, absolutely everything is recyclable. We have a lot
> of recycling facilities here.
To varying degrees, yes. But notice there are cases where recycling takes more effort than the value of the recycled product so it's counterproductive (One of the reasons that happens is because the products are badly designed on purpose.)
> I heard a story once of our how the
> aboriginals of my land would take the shards from broken bottles of
> the settlers (very dangerous things to leave on a landscape), knap
> them into arrowheads, and fire them back at them. Their approaches
> are peaceful nowadays.
Using the modern products of technofascism against their creators is harder though.
> > > This goes back to being a hobby inventor as a child. We can build
> > > these tools, if we want to. Govcorp makes them incredibly
> > > inefficiently, wasting resources in order to try to make
> > > set-and-forget-profit-factories. All these tools started as
> > > prototypes made by researchers and hobbyists, in small spaces,
> > > designed for the task at hand.
> > True to some degree but you're not going to easily build (if at all) something like a high frequency oscillocope in your garage.
> Why not? I have an rtl2832u tv tuner chip that samples at ungodly high rates.
just re-read what you wrote. First you mentioned a prototype made by hobbyists, now you're saying you're going to use a device that comes from govcorp. I don't think that using something that indeed IS a ready made oscilloscope qualifies as 'building' one.
I do have one of those usb tuners for digital tv too, I'm well aware of the free software radio for them bla bla. Fact remains the chip comes from a 'fab' that costs 1000s of millions of dollars.
> > > I don't know what kind of makerspace experience you have. Here in the
> > > USA, you can find a metal mill that can cut metal precisely down to
> > > thousandths of an inch, for free, because they are left over from old
> > > wars.
> > Well that pretty much proves my point? High precision equipment comes from govcorp, in this case, the worst of govcorp, the US MIC. You get the 'cheap' mill ONLY because 'they' feel like throwing it away. And wait, the most likely reason they throw it away is so that the govt can buy new mills that are 10x more expensive than they should be. In a word, corruption.
> Sure, but the old mill they threw out half a century ago still works
> fine to make tools to replace govcorp with, and there are still so
> many of these mills that nobody knows how to discard them.
> The issue with the mills was that they were incredibly heavy. So you
> might even have been able to get paid to take one away. (they are
> still around, I am speaking in the past tense because of the channel
> via which I am sharing the information.)
well, let's say that's a case where the damage previously done can be mitigated somewhat by putting the mills to better use.
> > I believe they are evil to the core because what they do is evil to the core. The 'scientific community' are the technocrats in our lovely technocracy.
> The luddite in me hugs you closely, but then my scientist takes over ...
You mentioned being an 'anarcho primitivist'? You're not really sound like one at the moment.
Also, I don't think I'm a luddite. I'm commenting on the moral choices of the assholes from the 'scientific community'. They could be honest 'scientists' but they are not.
> Do you even consider evil, the people who have spent their lives
> studying things like appropriate humanitarian aid and ecological
I consider all members of academia evil, for starters. Even the ones who pretend to be against the mainstream while getting hundreds of thousand of dollars in 'grants' and salaries.
> I prefer pursuing knowledge via human story than science. How do you
> like learning new things in a society, rather than with science?
> > > Puppet says: learning to recycle electronics is better than throwing
> > > them out and playing video games.
> > yeah. And don't throw away your video games. Recycle them too.
> Here you hilight our disagreement well. I'll have to think on this.
I was mostly agreeing tho =)
> I can't stand how video games waste time without any appropriate
> relation. I hate them, I want them thrown out. Mostly because they
> are being so harmful. I was addicted to them, and didn't know how to
> not be.
well, video games are useful to prevent people from...thinking. Imagine if people actually thought about the nature of jim bell's technofascism.
> > Political freedom for everyone. People being able to print stuff at home (wheter they are 'technophiles' or not) doesn't equate with people being more free.
> Within an unfree system, where everybody is addicted to manufactured
> stuff, 3d printers can print the words freedom, and give us the
> "freedom" of guiding our own addiction.
> How does that land?
hehe. To the degree that 3d printing leads people to believe that they are 'free' and so prevents them from revolting, 3d printing doesn't look like a good thing.
> What kind of steps towards freedom would you like to see?
destruction of government, what else?
> > 3d printers are inefficient, just like blockchains are inefficient but have other desirable properties.
> Here, we agree. We're talking about the same thing, but we're in
> different parts of it. Now, I can briefly see how you and I are
> struggling to work together on this.
Well, I'm trying to look at the whole picture, including the practical results of all this 'cypherpunk' stuff. And I am not seeing any results.
What I'm seeing is that half the world is under house arrest because of a laughable PSYOP and that in this fine 'cypherpunk' list we have an agent like professor turd calling for extermination of 'antivaxers' - which is exactly what governments would do if 'antivaxers' resisted.
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