Archives are not lost (Re: [zen at freedbms.net: Re: [WAR] ...])

jim bell jdb10987 at yahoo.com
Fri Nov 1 14:40:15 PDT 2019


 I think I should add a comment.   It should go without saying that virtually all the information which should be in the CP archive exists, somewhere, on the face of the Earth.   Perhaps it is in stacks of 1.44 megabyte floppies rubber-banded together, in cardboard boxes, long-retired 500-megabyte hard drives, all in closets, shelves, basements, and attics of the world.  Maybe even in QIC-40 backup tapes.  The problem is that it is not easily acquirable, 2 decades + later.
So, we should not take the eventual fact that this information trickles back as any indication that "no fraud has occurred".  Some innocent loss could have occurred, sure, but I think we will be able to identify the difference.
The person(s) who has attempted to defraud the CP archive did not intend that they could completely eliminate this information. They knew that probably thousands of copies of the truth would remain, hard to get, around the world.    Instead, they seem to have been wildly successful at generating a phony set of data, leaving at least dozens or hundreds of supposedly-intelligent people in the dark.  And so far, the only reason that this fraud has been detected is because I sought a simple, single-piece of information from what should have been in that archive:  The date (and posting) of the very first appearance of the AP essay, Part 1, on the CP list.  A virtually trivial request.  And the archive came up empty.
I don't expect that they actually generated any phony text,  That would have been HARD, given its potential volume!   What I think they probably did was to sort the correct archive information by 'thread', and then simply deleted any thread they chose to remove, over any time frame they wanted the information to "disappear".  Or deleted postings by specific authors, or subjects.   And, perhaps, delete individual comments that they wanted the archive to "lose".   Effectively, they simply caused that information to 'evaporate'.  And maybe they accomplished this by, in the end, "helpfully" donating what they called "a partial archive" to people intending to create an archive.
Did they fail or did they succeed?   So far, I think they succeeded well beyond their wildest dreams,
Sorry, guys, but YOU'VE BEEN HAD!  Virtually all of you!  
The big goal here is NOT to generate a new, correct archive.  The true goal is to expose the people who worked to fake this information. At this point, the "archives" themselves must be archived, so as to later make possible a forensic analysis of WHO faked this information.  Let's not get sidelined by claiming that 'the goal' is to 'fix the archive'.  
 At this point, we don't know who they are, but you have a task ahead of you.  And pay close attention to anyone who resists such an inquiry!!  They will probably be the same people who have long caused trouble on the CP list.  THEY are hostile to its proper goals.
             Jim Bell



    On Friday, November 1, 2019, 11:45:52 AM PDT, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:  
 
  Remember, all I INITIALLY wanted to do was to find the first instance where the topic of AP appeared in the list.  Then I (and others) have quickly discovered what appears to be a weird omission of postings.  I think many of my postings appear, just none (prior to November 1995) on the subject of AP.    I cannot say much about other subjects, simply because I haven't looked at other threads, and I don't claim to be able to remember what other ideas were being discussed.
This may end up being a substantial piece of work, which could take time.  I ask again, could somebody find the date of the AP-essay appearance on CP?  Maybe that will be a simple, discrete task that could be quickly done?
Once a better picture of what data is missing appears, I will probably have no choice but to cry "fraud!!!".  
And I think we should pay attention to people, here, who AREN'T acting in a concerned fashion.  What is their motivation?  Does this possibility bother them?
I think that the inactive (former?) Cypherpunks should be contacted, to inform them of the situation.  They are, or should be, very concerned if this turns out to be an attack on the CP list.  And we can learn a lot, by learning specifically what information was concealed,  We don't need to immediately regenerate the entire archives in order to figure out what happened
     Jim Bell


    On Friday, November 1, 2019, 02:02:31 AM PDT, Greg Newby <gbnewby at pglaf.org> wrote:  
 
 Jim, others:

Archives were discussed in the list awhile ago, a few times. Riad had some, and so did another source.

I have a copy here:
  https://www.petascale.org/cypherpunks/
(a few different versions)

The "to do" item is to slurp the archives so they are all findable among the other archives at https://lists.cpunks.org .. I will eventually do this. 

I looked at the Yahoo! Groups archives mentioned in this list a couple of weeks ago, and they seemed to be the same thing: just a long-time "subscriber" to the list. If anyone thinks they have unique content not listed above, we can try to hustle up a method to get a copy.

Best,
 Greg

On Fri, Nov 01, 2019 at 03:50:25AM +0000, jim bell wrote:
>  On Thursday, October 31, 2019, 06:21:01 PM PDT, Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
>  
>  
>  On Fri, Nov 01, 2019 at 12:30:02AM +0000, jim bell wrote:
> >  My comments follow:
> >    On Thursday, October 31, 2019, 03:45:00 PM PDT, Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:  
>> >  ----- Forwarded message from Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> -----
> > 
> > From: Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net>
> > To: cypherpunks at lists.cpunks.org
> > Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2016 22:35:47 +1000
> > Subject: Re: [WAR] ...
> > List-Id: The Cypherpunks Mailing List <cypherpunks.lists.cpunks.org>
> > 
> > On Thu, Sep 01, 2016 at 02:47:08AM -0600, Mirimir wrote:
> > > How about we implement a working AP system?
> > 
> > As I said in a previous thread, I now believe that to be fundamentally
> > flawed - that it will not achieve anything resembling justice, even in
> > the long term.
> 
> How did you come to that conclusion?  I have long believed (probably as early as 1995, though somebody seems to have LOST the archives!!!) that except for a relatively short transition period (maybe a couple of years?) there will eventually be formed a set of courts, at least vaguely similar to today's courts, but VOLUNTARY to both the "plaintiff" and "defendant".   
> Why?   The alleged 'perp' might arguably be innocent,.  Or, he knows he's guilty, but he believes that death should not be his punishment.  (and maybe he's right?)   Or, the public who is willing to donate to see evil people dead knows that the facts are often not clear,  Or, maybe one person is clearly guilty, but others who are not known are likely to exist.
> The jury system may not be perfect, but it is probably the best system devised by man to learn the truth..,.IF it is actually allowed to function properly,  
> If you don't understand this concept, you must not actually have thought about the implications of an AP-type system. _I_ did!!!  Long before I published Part 1, I worked through the implications, probably far better than most people on the CP list ever attempted.  I feel certain that discussion of my AP essay on the CP list eventually included these possibilities.  But now, SOMEBODY has LOST the archive!   Or, maybe it has been deliberately tampered with by somebody or somebodies.
> 
> > Fundamentally, the oligarchs and humans generally need a much higher
> > level of education and discourse.
> > 
> > "When all you have is a hammer ..."
> > 
> > 
> > In the current climate of a majority of extremely dummed down
> > "citizens", who are and feel disempowered, who cling to any iota of
> > power that presents such as any public lynching, where intelligent
> > "discourse" is simply not possible, restraint never exercised and
> > certainly not possible to exercise collectively, AP would be at best
> > a hammer to completely destroy society.
> > 
> > 
> > I support anarchism, not chaos.
> > 
> > ----- End forwarded message -----
> > 
> > 
> > >While it may seem to be over 23 years 'too late', I will indeed answer this last line of comment, assuming that I did not do so in September 1996:.  
> > >>From above, "I support anarchism, not chaos."
> >
> > >To equate "anarchy" with "chaos" is the classic error.   In my AP
> 
> I agree with that.
> 
> >That was not my question though.  Yes the colloquial use of the term
> "anarchy" is generally chaos, thus my use of the term "anarchism"
> etc.
> 
> Well, people can and do misuse terminology.  Yes, I believe that a large fraction of people who call themselves 'anarchists', or who are called by others 'anarchists', are merely died-in-the-wool Communists, Socialists, or leftists whose favorite ideology miserably failed over the period of 1917 through 2019.  
> 
> 
> >What I am equating is as follows: AP, with a very great potential for
> chaos, and if not chaos per se, for a significant increase in fear in
> the average dissident.
> YIKES!
> I suppose it doesn't occur to you.   Why do we NEED "dissidents"?   And by "dissidents", I mean a person to openly and publicly opposes some existing system.  TODAY'S society needs "dissidents", because policies adopted by GOVERNMENTS need (with the existing system) to be publicly opposed, in order to force change.    And that means public protests, including on the streets,  What other tools do most people recognize?
> In an AP world, "protesting", in the classical sense, isn't necessary.  If the government has a policy you don't like, donate to a fund to see your un-favorite politician DEAD DEAD DEAD.   And you will be able to do so ANONYMOUSLY!!!   Did you simply forget that straightforward concept?  Will that necessarily result in a dead politician?  No, but it will most likely be a politician who has resigned, or who changes the hated policies he previously had supported.
> WHY DID I BOTHER to write AP, when people misunderstand it so?  I thought it was all quite clear!    You are apparently stuck in the 1994 world pre-AP.  You assume that AP changes NOTHING.  In contrast, I claim it changes just about EVERYTHING.  
> As I said in AP Part 2:        "Just how would this change politics in America? It would take far less time to answer, "What would remain the same?" No longer would we be electing people who will turn around and tax us to death, regulate us to death, or for that matter sent hired thugs to kill us when we oppose their wishes." 
> Do you REALLY not understand this?
> 
> >And I further note, that dissidents are the exact folks actual
> anarchists ought be supporting - at least it should not be
> objectionable to support dissidents who diss:
> The work that used to be done by "dissidents" will be done by AP.  Nobody will need to stand up, raise their fist, march in the street, or protest.  
> 
>  > - peacefully
> >  - who protest peacefully
> And oftentimes, "peacefully" doesn't work.  
> 
>  > - who peacefully conscientiously object to some arbitrary rights
>     suppressing statute law and therefore choose to not obey that law
>     when "failing to obey that law" harms no one
> 
> Why do you keep forgetting what AP is DESIGNED to do?
> 
> 
> 
> The issue I am raising here is the threshold issue - the marginal
> dissident is the dissident who is on the border line being:
> 
>   - actually acting (doing something) in pursuance of his dissidence
>     (opposition to systemic problems/ corruption etc), vs
> 
>  > - not doing anything in pursuance of his dissidence, due to fear
> 
> How much "fear" will he have, to donate a few dollars to see crooked politicians dead?  
> 
> 
> >And the inescapable question which presents itself is, will AP move
> the line of marginal dissidents, way back to an extreme position,
> where only extremely dissident and extremely courageous dissidents
> DARE TO ACT in pursuance of their contrary positions and views in
> relation to the dominant structures present in society at that point
> in time?
> 
> I'm afraid I don't know what you are talking about.  But unfortunately, if you really don't understand how AP will work, none of your hypotheticals will likely be relevant.  
> 
> 
> >Again, we cannot escape the natural human desire, or at least
> tendency, to immediately establish hierarchies of authority,
> capacity, authority, will and any other vector we analyse, where none
> presently exists.
> I realize that you may think this is true, but that is clearly because you DON'T UNDERSTAND AP!   NOT AT ALL!!!
> 
> >Put another way, notwithstanding what most say:
> 
>  > "Humans absolutely crave hierarchy."
> 
> People used to say, "Nature abhors a vacuum"But it wasn't true.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horror_vacui_(physics)
> 
> 
> 
>   >"Humans desire the sense of stability that externalization of
>   authority provides to their feels."
> 
> One major problem with your idea is that, the reality is that most people grow up under such heirarchical power structures.  Raise people under such circumstances, and they LEARN to live with that system.  But that does not mean that this is a rule that cannot be changed.  
> 
>  > "Humans, when they believe a hierarchy they exist within is under
>   attack, will often go out of their way to protect that hierarchy."
> So what's your point?
> 
> 
> >And this is why we use the word "revolution" (or even evolution) when
> discussing any concept which might upturn the entire present systems
> of hierarchy (power) - there is nothing but a revolving from one
> system of hiearchy to some other system of hiearchy.
> 
> I think you don't understand David Friedman's "The Hard Problem" from his book, "The Machinery of Freedom".   Yes, in a pre-AP world, nobody (else) could figure out how to get rid of heirarchical power structures.   Even I didn't figure it out, until January 1995.  But then I did.  
> 
> 
> >Again, due to our biological (and emotional etc) nature, this
> tendency for bunches of humans towards hierarchy, is absolutely
> unavoidable.
> "Nature abhors a vacuum".
> Prior to January 1995, nobody else knew how to do that.   Not since then.  
> 
> 
> >No matter how utopian the socialist Marxist collective, no matter how
> anarchic and free of statutes, no matter how blank the slate we can
> achieve with our glorious resent due to $FUNKY_ANARCHY_SYSTEM_XYZ,
> humans will, absolutely, immediately go about creating new
> hierarchies!
> 
> Which is pretty much a perfect statement of David Friedman's "Hard Proble".   You haven't learned.  
> 
> 
> I am emphasizing this point, because this point seems to be lost on a
> lot of actual (or at least self proclaimed) anarchists.
> 
> 
> >We anarchists most often fail to grapple with basic human nature.
> 
> Many "we anarchists" clearly  don't understand my AP essay.
> 
> >We tend almost ubiquitously to being technocrats, presuming our
> wonderful system
> 
>   >- social system
> 
>   >- non-system system
> 
>   >- computer crypto overlay funk
> 
>   >- digital next gen fiat 2 point 0
> 
>  >- AP or any other system etc
> 
> 
> >will somehow, if instituded widely and in short order, somehow
> magically cause existing present-day humans to live in freedom, free
> of fear, and allowing one another (our neighbours) to be in peace.
> 
> There's nothing "magic" about it, although it might seem that way to people who don't understand AP.
> 
> 
> >This is a fallacy of the first order no less!
> 
> I'm amazed you don't understand AP.   I'd tell you to "read the archives", but SOMEBODY FUCKING LOST IT!!
> 
> >Humans crave hiearchy and will FIGHT YOU TO THE DEATH to claim their
> own version of utopian hierarchy!
> 
> <sigh>
> 
> 
> >The things we can hope for:
> 
> I hope you actually do the mental work to understand how AP is supposed to function.   I did.  And unlike you, I had nobody else around to help me, or explain it to me.  
> 
>  > - a peaceful revolution rather than bloody and destructive
>     revolution
> 
> I suppose you are assuming that there is some clear distinction between these alternatives, or which is which.  I've long argued that AP, once operating smoothly, will not shed a lot of blood.  The reason is that if 'the bad guys' know that it is virtually 100% certain they  will be targeted, they will realize that they will have no alternatives other than:1.  Die.2.  Resign.
> Can you explain what third alternative they have to choose?
> 
> 
> >  - a revolution to a new hiearchy which is a little more sane than
>     the present hierarchy
> 
> I think that many people who actually UNDERSTAND AP think of it as being a major improvement on any proposed alternative, and certainly over the status quo.  .
> 
>  > - a new system which somehow achieves a greater level of
>     "inculcation with the average human" of a valueing of fundamental
>     human rights and a knowledge of what freedom actually means, to
>     live freedom on a day to day basis
> 
> Put people in a system which destroys heirarchical power structures, and I am quite confident people will adjust and adapt.  Why do you think they won't?
> 
> >Such peaceful revolution may be not possible, I really have no idea.
> 
> I do "have an idea".  And I wrote it into my AP essay 1995-96.   https://cryptome.org/ap.htm  
> 
> Have more respect for people who actually take major risks to bring you freedom.  
> 
> >I am hopeful of the following basic premise being true though - that
> a system providing a useful level of privacy and anonymity for free
> speech will help to move the courage line for marginal dissidents, in
> the direction of "more folks experience more courage to speak their
> own truths".
> 
> Wake up!  WAKE UP!   "Dissidents" are not necessary!!!    (with apologies to late Portland Oregon retailer Tom Peterson.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iUKjbUrxXE     "Wake up!  Wake up!"
> DONORS are necessary.   Dissidents are not.   
> 
> > essay, I quoted somebody whose identity I never recalled:   In part
> > 5:
> > 
> > "Indeed, one common theme I've seen in criticisms of my idea is the fear that this system would lead to "anarchy." The funny thing about this objection is that, technically, this could easily be true. But "anarchy" in real life may not resemble anything like the "anarchy" these people claim to fear, which leads me to respond with a quote whose origin I don't quite remember:
> > "Anarchy is not lack of order. Anarchy is lack of ORDERS." "-------end of AP quote-------
> > Sadly, I never remembered who I was quoting, but the person is probably one who I met in person in libertarian circles in the Portland/Beaverton area in the 1990-1994 time frame.
> > The idea that society NEEDS government to properly function is well-described by the term "statism".    But we, the Cypherpunks, should understand more than any people that the 'traditional' mechanism to intermediate a society, a "government", can be replaced by computers, similar to the concept that "cash", or "currency", can be replaced by the various forms of 'digital cash'.   That fact wasn't so clear in 1996, and some people simply weren't able to (or willing to?) work through the implications of an AP-driven society.
> 
> 
> >"I continue to see that those with the power to print unlimited fiats,
> shall have the upper hand against all dissidents, anarchists, and
> peaceful protesters."
> 
> If you know who they are, target them.   If you don't know who they are, offer rewards anonymously to find out who they are and where they live and work.,   Then target them.  Then watch them run.  
> 
> >As a consequence of my own thinking on this,"
> 
> Which, sadly, cannot be very consequential.
> 
> > and this which I see, it
> appears to me inescapable that there is zero certainty, and great
> uncertainty, that AP shall usher in anything other than the
> unleashing of a great evil.?
> 
> Given your clear lack of understanding, I am not surprised you say that.
> 
> >When unleashed, the list of those who dedicate their lives to
> opposing powerful evil in a way which draws the interest of those who
> print the fiats, is the immediate list for those printing the fiats
> to target/ game/ dispense with in short order:
> 
> How will the "good guys" be identified if they don't need to stand up and protest?
> 
> 
>   Richard Stallman
> 
>   Julian Assange
> 
>   Jim Bell
> 
>   Jacob Applebaum
> 
>   Andrew Breitbart
> 
>   Dmitry Sklyarov
> 
>   Aaron Swartz
> 
>   John Young
> 
>   Zenaan Harkness
> 
>   Juan
> 
>   and an endless list more
> 
> 
> >Jim, were AP in play, and you invented some concept of similar
> notoriety which was designed to dish out justice to the elite fiat
> printers, why would those elite fiat printers not have, instead of
> subjected you to 13 years of jail and illegal appeal behind your back
> etc, instead just whopped a few fiat on one of the various AP
> markets, and had you, Jim Bell, dispensed with in short order?
> 
> Please learn what AP actually means, and call me back.  
> 
> >(And so the final question, why is unleashing such "freedom to pay
>  for killing other humans", wise?)
> 
> Call me when the existing alternative actually begins to work.  It hasn't yet.  
> 
>           Jim Bell
> 
> 
>  
    
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