Personal attacks etc (was Re: USA: National Security Strategy...)

[Marina Brown]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

On 01/04/2018 05:03 PM, jim bell wrote:
> 
> 
> On Thursday, January 4, 2018, 1:13:27 PM PST, Marina Brown 
> <catskillmarina at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256
> 
> On 01/04/2018 03:21 PM, jim bell wrote:
> 
>> I don't find that calling it "mccarthyist propaganda" is 
>> particularly persuasive.  We may hate Joseph McCarthy for his 
>> tactics, but there WERE many valid reasons to object to
>> Communism and Socialism in the early 1950's.
>> 
>> 
>>> As for the "completely made up numbers", which numbers do you 
>>> believe to be valid?  I frequently say that in the 20th
>>> Century, about 250 million people were killed by government,
>>> including in wars.  Far more of those deaths seem to be caused
>>> by Communist/Socialist governments than by Fascist governments.
>>> And, as you might recall, I was reminded nearly two years ago
>>> (from the Wikipedia article on Benito Mussolini) that "Fascism"
>>> is essentially Socialism, and probably doesn't deserve to be
>>> called "right wing" as many people seem to do at this point.
>> 
>>> Jim Bell
> 
> 
> 
>> Governments seem to be one of the most effective forces in
>> getting
> people to abandon their objections to killing. Nationalism and
> racism are common tools they use to convince people to kill.
> 
> 
> 
> No doubt of that.  Which is why I was a minarchist libertarian
> before 1995, and an anarchist libertarian 1995 and afterwards.
> 
> 
> 
>> Even if fascism has been less deadly than communism, i don't find
>> that
> an argument that would make me adopt fascism.
> 
> 
> Are you implying that I was suggesting that you adopt fascism?
> Sounds like a strawman argument from here.
> 

I'm not arguing with you. Just discussing things. I know you don't
push fascism.

> 
> 
>> After all most forms of fascism on the planet advocate killing
>> me.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, most forms of totalitarian governments advocate killing 
> people, including their own citizenry.  Why narrow down your
> objections, artificially, to "fascism"?
> 

Good point. I've experienced autoritarian/totalitarian governments in
my life. They all sucked, though the scariest moment before this year
was passing through E Germany in 1973.

Nowadays my emotional reaction to TSA and the like is about the same
as it was as a kid passing through E. Germany. PAPERS PLEASE !

> 
> 
>> Honestly i see the ramping up of white nationalism and things
>> like that
> as a prelude to genocide. - --- Marina
> 
> 
> 
> Whereas, I view such worry as ALMOST ENTIRELY propaganda.  (Not
> that I'm somehow defending "white nationalism")
> 

There are quite a few dead bodies to go along with that propaganda now.

> And I think I can prove it.   "white nationalism", as a term, has 
> existed for years.  But, use the Google program, "Google Trends".
> 
> 

Yes - of course. I've been watching it grow from a joke back in the
80's and 90's to a mainstream movement now.

> 
> https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&q=white%20na
tionalism
>
> 
> 
> Set the viewed timeline to around 2 years.  You can easily see
> that "white nationalism" wasn't a "thing" until the week AFTER the
> 2016 elections!  There was very little coverage the week of the
> election, or any prior week.       (Except that back in March 2006,
> there was a peak.  Dunno why...)
> 
> What does this tell me?  The way "white nationalism" has been
> used, within the last 14 months, as been essentially A HOAX.  A
> FRAUD.  A SHAM.  A CONCOCTED DISPUTE.  A NON-ISSUE.
> 

Tell that to people who get harrassed by white nationalists for just
existing.

> SUDDENLY, only after the results of the election came in, SOMEBODY
> in a powerful position of authority decided to make "white
> nationalism" a "thing".  I suspect Hillary Clinton, or maybe the
> Democrats, or maybe Obama.  Or a combination of them.
> 
> If "white nationalism" had been an important, genuine issue, it
> would have at least have been an important campaign issue, or have
> been heavily discussed for years prior to 2016.  It obviously
> wasn't.    It's virtually all propaganda.
> 

I wish i was as optimistic as you, but i have had to deal with the
very real aftermath of people incited by white nationalism.

I knew the woman in Reston who was killed by the nazi kid. I advise a
person on electronic security who gets constantly harrassed by white
nationalists - for some reason they stick to her like ticks and rarely
a month goes by without her having to deal with them.

Which brings us back to electronic security. I have advised my friend to
use ricochet.im to communicate where possible. It keeps location more
secure and does reasonable encryption. She is very leery of signal
running on android as she does not trust the platform - i agree.

- --- Marina

> Jim Bell
> 
> 
> 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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=0/i8
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----