What is the value of the State?

jim bell jdb10987 at yahoo.com
Tue May 2 17:39:57 PDT 2017

      From: \0xDynamite <dreamingforward at gmail.com>

>That's some good bit o' history.
It was you who asked the question "Without a State, would we have electronics?  Radio?"
I proceeded to answer that question, and others.  You asked the history question, I thought the answer was obviousl.
>  I was really referring to the level
of existing order needed to create *more* levels of order. 
That sounds like gobbledygook to me.    What do you mean by this?  What is a "level of order"?  And why do you (apparently) think that government is somehow necessary (or even desireable) to act as a driver of technology.   I think the opposite is true.
> I don't
think it's possible to argue with that.
Until we actually UNDERSTAND what you meant, how can someone argue?

>But I like the sentiment.  I think the problem is more than the State.
What problem?  I think "the State" is the problem.
>It's the pathetic infrastructure that would be an eyesore for
States have been a "pathetic infrastructure" that has been "an eyesore for centuries.
        Jim Bell

On 5/2/17, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> From: \0xDynamite <dreamingforward at gmail.com>
>>Without a State, would we have electronics?  Radio?
> That's a question which displays a lack of knowledge of technical history.
>  Radio transmission was known as a consequence of Maxwell's equations,
> Maxwell's equations  .    Heinrich Hertz        Electronics can be traced to
> the "Fleming Valve",  Fleming valve   the rectifying diode implemented using
> the Edison effect, which was actually discovered by Frederick Guthrie.
>  Frederick Guthrie    Shortly afterwards, Lee DeForest  Lee de Forest
> added a grid, which made it possible for the "vacuum tube" to oscillate and
> amplify, leading to radio communications.   Radio broadcasting occurred
> BEFORE government regulation:  Arguably, the need to allow many stations to
> share a limited spectrum made such regulation necessary.
>>Computers?Computers existed before IC's; I used one, the DEC PDP-7, in
>> 1976-80.   But at about $50,000 in 1964 dollars (about $500,000 in
>> today's), the average individual wasn't going to buy one. What we know
>> today as "computers" was primarily the product of the invention of the
>> integrated circuit (IC) by MOSFET - Wikipedia   various scientists and
>> engineers. Once the concept of the  Integrated circuit existed, and was
>> seen to follow the scaling described by Moore's law   (initially, in the
>> 1960's, a doubling of transistors on a chip every 12 months; later in the
>> 70's and 80's the doubling period lengthened to 18 months, then to 2 years
>> in the 1990's and later), if one transistor was possible in, say, 1961, 13
>> years later 2**13 transistors (8192) was possible, in 1974.  So, the
>> development of early microprocessors such as Intel's 8080, 6502, and 6800
>> was virtually assured.  This was definitely NOT the product of government!
>>  And it would have happened regardless of the "space race" of the 1960's
>> and 70's.
> Also, you didn't mention The Internet.  Statists are fond of suggesting that
> the United States government made the Internet possible.  Well, no, it
> didn't.  During a time in which that government was financing research, some
> money was spent to develop network interface controllers Network interface
> controller, which at the time typically fit into a single RETMA 19" rack.
>  Not long afterwards, the same thing could have been (and was) implemented
> by means of more modern IC's.  But at that point, "the Internet" (as we know
> it, or at least knew it in 1995), was still impossible.
> If you still doubt this, consider:  Why didn't the Internet as we know it
> today exist in 1980?  To me, the answer is simple.  The fastest modem in
> common use by consumers at that time was a 300 bits-per-second, Bell 103
> (different Bell!) compatible.  Great improvements followed:  1200 bps in
> about 1981; 2400 bps in 1983, 9800 bps in the early 1990's. Modem    I'd say
> it was the latter, 9600 bps, which really made the modern Internet plausible
> for the vast majority of the population.  So, it was the people who
> developed and built 9600+bps modems that made the Internet (as we knew it,
> in 1995) possible.
>>  MassTransit?
> I think most of the New York subway systems were originally privately
> financed and built.  Similarly, most railroads.  Similarly bus lines.  And
> airlines.
>> Bikes?
> BTW, you haven't forgotten that powered human flight was first accomplished
> by Orville and Wilbur Wright, two bicycle mechanics.
>>And if we need a State, what form should it take?
> Written into history books as events long past.
>           Jim Bell

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