What is the value of the State?
jdb10987 at yahoo.com
Tue May 2 17:39:57 PDT 2017
From: \0xDynamite <dreamingforward at gmail.com>
>That's some good bit o' history.
It was you who asked the question "Without a State, would we have electronics? Radio?"
I proceeded to answer that question, and others. You asked the history question, I thought the answer was obviousl.
> I was really referring to the level
of existing order needed to create *more* levels of order.
That sounds like gobbledygook to me. What do you mean by this? What is a "level of order"? And why do you (apparently) think that government is somehow necessary (or even desireable) to act as a driver of technology. I think the opposite is true.
> I don't
think it's possible to argue with that.
Until we actually UNDERSTAND what you meant, how can someone argue?
>But I like the sentiment. I think the problem is more than the State.
What problem? I think "the State" is the problem.
>It's the pathetic infrastructure that would be an eyesore for
States have been a "pathetic infrastructure" that has been "an eyesore for centuries.
On 5/2/17, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> From: \0xDynamite <dreamingforward at gmail.com>
>>Without a State, would we have electronics? Radio?
> That's a question which displays a lack of knowledge of technical history.
> Radio transmission was known as a consequence of Maxwell's equations,
> Maxwell's equations . Heinrich Hertz Electronics can be traced to
> the "Fleming Valve", Fleming valve the rectifying diode implemented using
> the Edison effect, which was actually discovered by Frederick Guthrie.
> Frederick Guthrie Shortly afterwards, Lee DeForest Lee de Forest
> added a grid, which made it possible for the "vacuum tube" to oscillate and
> amplify, leading to radio communications. Radio broadcasting occurred
> BEFORE government regulation: Arguably, the need to allow many stations to
> share a limited spectrum made such regulation necessary.
>>Computers?Computers existed before IC's; I used one, the DEC PDP-7, in
>> 1976-80. But at about $50,000 in 1964 dollars (about $500,000 in
>> today's), the average individual wasn't going to buy one. What we know
>> today as "computers" was primarily the product of the invention of the
>> integrated circuit (IC) by MOSFET - Wikipedia various scientists and
>> engineers. Once the concept of the Integrated circuit existed, and was
>> seen to follow the scaling described by Moore's law (initially, in the
>> 1960's, a doubling of transistors on a chip every 12 months; later in the
>> 70's and 80's the doubling period lengthened to 18 months, then to 2 years
>> in the 1990's and later), if one transistor was possible in, say, 1961, 13
>> years later 2**13 transistors (8192) was possible, in 1974. So, the
>> development of early microprocessors such as Intel's 8080, 6502, and 6800
>> was virtually assured. This was definitely NOT the product of government!
>> And it would have happened regardless of the "space race" of the 1960's
>> and 70's.
> Also, you didn't mention The Internet. Statists are fond of suggesting that
> the United States government made the Internet possible. Well, no, it
> didn't. During a time in which that government was financing research, some
> money was spent to develop network interface controllers Network interface
> controller, which at the time typically fit into a single RETMA 19" rack.
> Not long afterwards, the same thing could have been (and was) implemented
> by means of more modern IC's. But at that point, "the Internet" (as we know
> it, or at least knew it in 1995), was still impossible.
> If you still doubt this, consider: Why didn't the Internet as we know it
> today exist in 1980? To me, the answer is simple. The fastest modem in
> common use by consumers at that time was a 300 bits-per-second, Bell 103
> (different Bell!) compatible. Great improvements followed: 1200 bps in
> about 1981; 2400 bps in 1983, 9800 bps in the early 1990's. Modem I'd say
> it was the latter, 9600 bps, which really made the modern Internet plausible
> for the vast majority of the population. So, it was the people who
> developed and built 9600+bps modems that made the Internet (as we knew it,
> in 1995) possible.
> I think most of the New York subway systems were originally privately
> financed and built. Similarly, most railroads. Similarly bus lines. And
> BTW, you haven't forgotten that powered human flight was first accomplished
> by Orville and Wilbur Wright, two bicycle mechanics.
>>And if we need a State, what form should it take?
> Written into history books as events long past.
> Jim Bell
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