[tor-talk] http://jacobappelbaum.net/

Zenaan Harkness zen at freedbms.net
Fri Sep 2 22:47:34 PDT 2016


On Sat, Sep 03, 2016 at 02:08:48AM -0300, juan wrote:
> On Fri, 2 Sep 2016 22:41:35 -0600
> Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
> 
> > No, that's just arguing. What distinguishes trolling is picking fights
> > to disrupt a community.
> 
> 	What 'community' are you talking about? Your community of state
> 	parasites who get money from the department of war to promote
> 	fake anonimity networks? 

The skillful part is using just enough colorful language combined with
semi-personal attacks, to cause your 'opponents' to highlight their
nationalist or other beliefs.

In and of itself, that is very useful. It is good that folks are
encouraged to not hold back in expressing who they are.


There is a flip side though perhaps: once an individual has expressed
vehemence on a particular view, and also demonstrated abundantly that
they are unable to refrain from personal "defence", then the
conversation has stagnated - often enough entertaining, yes, but no real
progress is made, and when folks are expressing defensively, they are
less likely to shift ground "cars ARE evil! We MUST have documentation
PAPERS PLEASE to PROVE you are a COMPETENT driver! This is the ONLY
WAY!!!"

That's just self defeating emphatic-ness and more entrenchment of
positions which are (perhaps?) not particularly useful to any of us
in the medium to longer term?


Damn funny to watch though ... :D


But sadly, not useful. Not useful at all. ??



> 	Or are you saying that this list is a 'community'? Dude, this
> 	is a mailing list.

In this modern world, folks find a sense of community all over the
place. Juan, you're an intelligent man indeed. Humans have "basic needs"
and one of those is acknowledgement from ones peers.

Yes yes yes, rising above such petty trivialities as acknowledgement,
fairness and "emotional fuzzy wuzzy hippy warmth" is a worthy goal, but
evidently challenging for many who as we know too well, are so
"schooled" in Western think, superficiality, defense of ego / self, etc
etc etc.


> > Juan, for example, is very clever, and skilled
> > at rhetoric. He consistently dances away, turning the argument away
> > from any possible resolution.

Mirimir, I actually disagree with this. Juan is nothing if not
consistent and persistent in his anarchism (and anti-state) position.

Example:

 - Rayzer implicitly defended state issued driver licenses with the
   consequent implied state enforcement (implicitly Rayzer, don't get
   worked up on this please)

 - Juan, consequently, names Rayzer as fascist (in subtley more
   colourful language).

 - instead of handling the issue/ the "ball" of the argument in the
   conversation, Rayzer leaps into the name calling, and it goes back
   and forth and Goergi so elquently put it :)


But guys: bloody hell! Is this at all useful!


Juan, you've successfully highlighted Rayzer's emotional weak point -
most Westerners (including me still in some ways, and me pretty heavily
up until recent times!) are terminally insecure and fall instantly into
self defence when "attackeed", missing the damn point!


Is  this  useful  (to keep repeating)  ? ? ?


> 	You are not a very skillful troll. Are you claiming with a
> 	straight face that I don't argue my points in a honest way?
> 
> 	That I actually avoid replying to the bullshit people like you
> 	say? Please.

This list would be almost dead if you were not here :)

I'm still too "Western schooling pussy whipped" to challenge folks
properly much of the time...

Mirimir, without challenging one another, there can be no shift!


Again: what's useful ?



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