Political Cypherpunks Trumps Apolitical Cryptography

Tue Sep 6 12:07:54 PDT 2016

On 9/6/16 4:06 AM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 05, 2016 at 02:05:35PM -0700, Stephen D. Williams wrote:
>> On 9/5/16 2:07 PM, juan wrote:
>>> On Mon, 5 Sep 2016 11:39:12 -0700
>>> "Stephen D. Williams" <sdw at lig.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> What this does not include is promoting or bashing particular
>>>> political systems or plotting their demise 
>>> 	Cypherpunks archive 1992-->1998 
>>>
>>> 	I counted 4107 messages from Tim May, all containing the
>>> 	following signature
>>>
>>> 	"Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,  anonymous
>>> 	networks, digital pseudonyms, zero knowledge, reputations,
>>> 	information markets, black markets, collapse of governments."
>>>
>>> 	Even after 4107 repetitions, the most dishonest retard should
>>> 	understand what crypyo ANARCHY is about.
>>>
>>> 	For the record :  collapse of governments
>> You are still failing to understand English.  And resorting to ad
>> hominem.  Lose lose lose.
> Hmm. Interesting. It sounds like you are alleging that Juan has failed
> to understand English.

Exactly.  He is saying that this:
> What this does not include is promoting or bashing particular
> political systems or plotting their demise 
is wrong because this:

	"Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,  anonymous
	networks, digital pseudonyms, zero knowledge, reputations,
	information markets, black markets, collapse of governments."

Means something like:

	"We advocate and work toward all conceptions of 
	Crypto Anarchy including all of these: encryption, digital money,  anonymous
	networks, digital pseudonyms, zero knowledge, reputations,
	information markets, black markets, collapse of governments."

And I am pointing out that it does not say that.  Those words are in the form of a definition of 'Crypto Anarchy'.  They do not
state a charter of intent, preference, value, or anything else actionable.  He is insisting that meaning is there that isn't.

To loosely characterize what Juan seems to want, concluding that "being on this list means you should be supporting any and all
forms of anarchy over other forms of government and social systems" vs. "the availability of encryption, digital money, etc. might
cause collapse of governments" or "some bad forms of government hopefully won't survive an end-run around their oppressive systems"
is weakly supported.

> Let's unpack this shall we? "No!" I hear you say? OK, let's unpack it
> anyway...

Nice attempt at being funny, but it is all weak.
>
>
> 1)
>
> Firstly, you wrote this:
>
>>>> What this does not include is promoting or bashing particular
>>>> political systems or plotting their demise 
> Now I might be slow, but I do note the words [0-5, 13-15], which if I
> decode this masterful encoding which massively reduces the amount of
> space required in an email to reference specific words in another's
> quote, is actually the following sequence of words:
>
>> What this does not include is plotting their demise 
> Oh, and the nounal object of your quote is "political systems", so to
> flesh it out:
>
>> What this does not include is plotting the demise of political systems
>
> OK, got it. Since you tried to be subtle about it, with appeals to
> authority, cutting down some really vile straw men and establishing
> yourself as the "need"ed go to (when I say "go to" I mean "authority"),
> i.e. just sort of "slipping it in, hopefully sorta may be under the
> radar", we were, unfortunately, "need"ing to unpack your position.
>
>
> So, we got it, "Do NOT plot the DEMISE of Political Systems, of which I
> am closely associated."
>
> Because, you know, that would serious be offtopic for this list and a
> REAL violation of John Young and Tim May's foundations for what's on
> topic to be discussed on this list, and you gonna teach us all a real
> bad ass lesson if we violate those absolute, in stone, unviolable,
> rules.
>
> Got it. Anarchy bad. USA goverment good. SDW authority.
>
> Simple really. Escapes me why I never thunked of these simple truths
> before ... ?  ?  ???
>
> Silly me..
>
>
>
> 2)
>
> Now, secondly, Juan said this:
>
>>> 	Cypherpunks archive 1992-->1998 
>>>
>>> 	I counted 4107 messages from Tim May, all containing the
>>> 	following signature
>>>
>>> 	"Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,  anonymous
>>> 	networks, digital pseudonyms, zero knowledge, reputations,
>>> 	information markets, black markets, collapse of governments."
>>>
>>> 	Even after 4107 repetitions, the most dishonest retard should
>>> 	understand what crypyo ANARCHY is about.
>>>
>>> 	For the record :  collapse of governments
> And note that little bit about "crypto anarchy: collapse of
> governments".
>
> Hmm, ok, Juan's response is quite simple really. It says what it means,
> provides a factual basis, and means what it says.
>
> The very definition of integrity.
>
> Thanks Juan, we need a bit of clarity occasionally. Really appreciated.
>
> Top stuff!
>
>
>
> 3)
>
> Now, finally, you said this:
>
>> You are still failing to understand English.
> Except that this was factual, which it's not, this is a slur, a few
> words designed to bypass any real debate and degrade the character of
> your target.
>
> I'm pretty sure this technique has a proper name ... something like
> adding to homo sapiens names or something ... can't quite remember it...
>
>
>
>> And resorting to ad hominem.
> AHHHH!!! YES!!! That's what it is called. THANK you Stephen, I'd
> forgottten just for a moment - you just used an "ad hominem".

I did?  Where?  By guessing at the error being made here?  Pointing out what I think is the source of an error isn't ad hominem.

>
>
> Well well well. I wonder what we're supposed to say now. I'll check
> above for further guidance.
>
> ...
>
> ..
>
>
> .
>
>
> ...
>
>
> Found it! The end of your email Stephen:
>
> Lose lose lose.

sdw

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