Hi, Boyce! (was Fwd: tor-talk subscription update)

[juan]

On Thu, 23 Jun 2016 22:27:46 +1000
Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:


> 
> There is room in the world for private or semi-private clubs where the
> democracy of the club prevails. The benefit of this over capital-D
> democracy, as Juan has succinctly pointed out wrt the Debian example,
> is that no one HAS to join that club. I don't HAVE to die for the
> cause of Debian, and on top of it, I can fork as much of the code and
> do with it as I want/ am able.


	Yes, but Cecilia and I were talking about censorship in
	tor-talk. Although there may be parallels with linux
	distributions or private clubs, this case is purely a free
	speech case. 

	Cecilia said 'moderation' (that is censorship) was almost
	always bad, but sometimes 'justified'(or something like that).

	Given the 'context' and as far as I'm concerned, Cecilia was
	saying that banning all the people that tor-fascists banned was
	'justified' 'ok' or whatever. 
	
	By the way, Cecilia's 'argument'  is pretty much
	self-defeating. If censorship is OK 'sometimes', then she can't
	complain about being censored 'sometimes', like 'this' time.



> 
> Now, for foundations for robust broader "community"/ national
> "society", this is another matter entirely - we need fundamental
> human rights to be respected very strongly, for a strong society
> potential.

	Yes.

> 
> We need the right to create and live "hard core free speech" forums,
> we need "the right to free and anonymous travel on the commons", we
> need these and more!
> 
	Yes.


> And having strong foundations does not remove the right for small/
> medium or large groups to form their own (semi) private clubs (if
> they're useful for you, healing for others, comforting for some, go
> for it, create as many private clubs as your heart desires).
> 
> "Strong public rights, is not contradictory to private clubs."


	Well, if we had mechanisms for 'public' free speech  then
	private censorship might be more tolerable. But right now we
	have the worst of both worlds. Public and private censorship.

	As to the so called tor-project, it is a 'public' project in
	more than one sense. It's funded by 'public'(stolen) money, it's
	'open source', it can be used by anyone, and it's a MILITARY
	project of the US military, which happens to be invading and
	has military bases in tens of countries all over the world. All
	the people being attacked by the US military are an unwilling
	party to the United States Private Club.



> Juan, I'd like your thoughts on this proposition.