Wikileaks is the Endgame

[juan]

On Sun, 26 Jun 2016 22:14:03 -0600
Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:

>
> Yes, VPNs will provide as much privacy as Tor does for purely local
> adversaries. But if your adversary can get logs from the VPN server,
> or the hosting provider, you're screwed. 

	Yes. But how easy it is for your or my local government to get
	logs from an ISP in a different country? There isn't a single
	answer, but I suspect in general it's not that easy. So unless
	we are a relatively serious 'criminal' 'threat', we should be
	safe, I'd think.

	And if the aim is to avoid surveillance from one's local ISP,
	then the bar is low since ISPs don't have police powers...yet.



> With Tor, such adversaries
> would need to get logs from at least two of the three relays in
> circuits. And circuits change frequently, so that means lots of
> relays.
	
	True. So it would seem as if tor would be effective against
	adversaries in some particular cases...

	But the fact remains. Against 'small' adversaries tor isn't
	needed and against big adversaries tor doesn't work...


> 
> And sure, you can nest VPNs. So a nested chain of three VPNs arguably
> does as much as a Tor circuit. But it's static. Or at least, I haven't
> figured out how to automate switching. And there's also the matter of
> paying for a bunch of VPNs.

	Yes, cost would be a problem. But it's not that tor is free
	either. Somebody else is paying the bill.
	
	On the other hand, tor is a subsidized state project. Like any
	 state project the quality is limited AND it drives off
	 'private' investment and development. 



> 
> Anyway, I hedge my bets by accessing Tor through nested VPNs.
> 
> >> What do you use for privacy and/or "anonymity"?
> > 
> > 	Nothing. I'd play with freenet but I don't want to install
> > 	java, so...
> 
> Right. I2P also runs on Java.

	I think there's a C++ implementation now as well.

> 
> >> Why do you use the Internet? It's arguably just as pwned as Tor is.
> > 
> > 	Except that when I use the internet I'm not tring to hide
> > 	anything. 
> 
> Well, that's cool, if it works for you. Doesn't work for me, however.


	Just in case, please don't think that I subscribe to the "I've
	nothing to hide" bullshit or something like that. I'd love to
	use a really robust darknet. But since I don't think the current
	darknets are to be trusted I'm doing without them, at least for
	the time being...


> 
> > 	And no lying piece of shit advertised the  internet as
> > 	having anything to do with :
> > 
> > 	"Anonymity Online."
> > 
> > 	Or that the internet lets you  : 
> > 
> > 	"Protect your privacy. Defend yourself
> > 	against network surveillance and traffic analysis." 
> 
> You have a point. But far too many people do seem to believe that
> they're anonymous on the Internet.

	They are, if they use tor! OK, bad joke on my part.



>