The BlackList

[intelemetry]

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Cari Machet:
> also the dude is just replacing the state with capitalism and
> anarcho capitalism is bullshit anarchy is against any that is any
> any any structure impossing its structure on the people and fucking
> capitalism is a structure so anarco capitalists should rename
> themselves
> 
> the dude talks about that the community the community would not
> allow this or that if someone stole your tv the community would not
> allow you to just go in the dudes hut and take it back - you need
> an intermediary ... but this is monolithic thinking ... which is a
> pit in theories ... they strangle themselves with coffinesque
> solutions instead of being base theory
> 
> ++++++++++
> 
> so fucking blackwater has been doing this shit for a while now ...
> gun for hire and what i am not reading here is any consciousness
> that the murder/war zone is a fucking hopped up place the people
> that perform these actions are getting off on

There are many private mercenaries that don't work for a state.
Organized crime and corporations use private security forces. In fact,
in situations where there is a state but law enforcement does not
exist gangs effectively perform this function. You adhere to a group
wherein your membership is an arbitration agreement that includes
protection in exchange for whatever it is you must do.

In certain ethnic areas private law enforcement is carried out on an
ad-hoc, hierarchical community level wherein citizens don't trust the
police (e.g. "illegal" immigrant enclaves). This is not too far from a
privatization of defense.

> 
> https://youtu.be/zm5E10EhSp0?t=16m45s
> 
> i found the place for you where he says combat is like no other
> drug jim so you dont have to listen to everything
> 
> so some people get off on the murder
> 
> but we have to already know that
> 
> the idea behind dropping the bombs on japan was like this deterrent
> or that is what generally american people think anyway ... the
> japanese would not give an unconditional surrender yet they had
> surrendered
> 
> all these mass murder desires need to be shifted out as i think
> they are strong entities in and of themselves apart from money the
> psyche is straight up blood lust blood thirsty fucks ... why we
> have blood thirsty fucks everywhere ??? why do people get off on
> murder/war like it is a drug ? until these mindsets are twisted out
> of themselves and drained of energy clear theory of crowd sourced
> assassination for deterrent cannot fully work... if it was like one
> or two crazy fucks that desired combat and murder to get off then
> that would be one thing but this is like a lot of fucks and even
> the fucking american psyche associations enjoy hurting people
> 
> there are many fronts to work on all at the same time to shift out
> of all of this
> 
> On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 12:52 PM, intelemetry
> <intelemetry at openmailbox.org> wrote:
> 
> jim bell:
>>>> From: intelemetry <intelemetry at openmailbox.org>
>>>> 
>>>>> This video might help set the context: 
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0_Jd_MzGCw 'The Market
>>>>> for Security | Robert P. Murphy '
>>>> 
>>>> - - Intelemetry
>>>> 
>>>> I will explain to you why selecting Murphy to support any
>>>> arguments you have is misguided.   Here is a paragraph from
>>>> his essay, itself a response to his business partner, Robert
>>>> Vroman, at: 
>>>> https://web.archive.org/web/20060208094246/http://www.anti-state.co
m/m
>
>>>> 
urphy/murphy17.html
>>>> I will first quote the whole paragraph, and then address it 
>>>> inline: "Simply put, I don't think Vroman or Bell realize
>>>> just how nutty and horrible the AP idea seems to the average
>>>> American. Especially if the government institutes a standing
>>>> penalty of, say, a mandatory twenty-five years for placing an
>>>> AP donation, I don't think we will have the millions of small
>>>> donations that AP requires. The situation would be a
>>>> prisoner's dilemma: No individual donation of $10 or even
>>>> $100 is going to make the difference between a target being
>>>> killed or not, and so there would be no reason for the
>>>> average person to use AP. The fact that the donations could
>>>> be made "safely" is not enough; the government would surely
>>>> institute eavesdropping measures and would punish anyone who
>>>> even visited AP sites.
> 
> I selected Murphy because you mentioned Friedman's hard problem of 
> privatizing defense without the presence of state actors. Your 
> solution is crowdfunding assassinations of anybody who is
> unpopular. This does fit within the paradigm of Friedman's
> approach.
> 
> I would argue that Murphy's approach of collectives banding
> together and entering into private arbitration agreements with
> private defense contractors is more reasonable in preserving
> liberty and security. By entering into said private arbitration
> agreement with a private defense force, you also have aspects of
> private jurisprudence. The arbitration clause can have stipulations
> for certain scenarios and how they are dealt with (e.g., trials,
> fines, etc).
> 
> Democracy is the tyranny of the majority, and assassination
> politics is dangerous in that regard when they are coupled. Private
> arbitration agreements with private security forces wherein
> mobility has reciprocal agreements (similar to current travel)
> seems more reasonable.
> 
> I would suggest you consider the countereconomics work of SEK
> (e.g. agorism) and Vaclav Benda. Benda is an interesting case
> because he did his work on parallel structures while under the
> Soviet Union.
> 
> The conclusion was that -- in the presence of an oppressive state
> -- a robust solution was an overlay of private and hidden societies
> as opposed to direct overt warfare with the state.
> 
>>>> My replies inline: Simply put, I don't think Vroman or Bell
>>>> realize just how nutty and horrible the AP idea seems to the
>>>> average American. I should point out why I view Murphy's
>>>> comment as being wacky, in itself.  The "average American" is
>>>> fairly familiar with the deficiencies of the world's status
>>>> quo.
> 
> I think your assumptions regarding the average American are wrong,
> but that is my opinion. Don't underestimate the power of memetic
> warfare, neurolinguistic programming, and general propaganda.
> 
> But he may not be aware that it has been estimated that in the
> 20th century, about 250 million people DIED, killed by the actions
> of governments. 
> http://www.evil.news/2015-10-07-national-governments-murdered-262-mill
io
>
> 
n-people-over-the-last-century.html
> Does Murphy impllicitly or explicitly say that is somehow "okay"? I
> very much doubt he'd say that was acceptable, and he probably 
> couldn't argue much with the numbers themselves.  But suppose
> those "average Americans" were FIRST fully informed of this fact,
> even simply as an estimate.  THEN, suppose it was explained to him
> HOW a functioning AP system wouldn't allow that to happen, if
> necessary by killing whatever number of government employees were
> necessary to stop this, the "Democide".   If those "average
> Americans" were reminded that the death of a government employee is
> no more unfortunate than the death of ordinary citizens, then
> wouldn't it be reasonable to conclude that to save 250 million
> ordinary citizens, it would certainly be acceptable to kill 25
> million government employees, and certainly 2.5 million government
> employees?
>>>> The "average American" has been aware, during and since the
>>>> 1960's, that the citizens of many major governments have been
>>>> under a nuclear terror.  Now, it seems, we simply accept it
>>>> as it is a reality.  As shocking as that may see, perhaps
>>>> it's made more understandable by the fact that there has not
>>>> seemed to be anything we can do about it. Suppose, then,
>>>> these "average Americans" were told that a functioning AP
>>>> system would make any nation's holding of nuclear weapons
>>>> absolutely impossible:  They are in the control of SOMEONE,
>>>> or maybe hundreds and thousands of someones, and such people
>>>> can be targeted by AP until those weapons are finally shut 
>>>> down, and dismantled, and permanently rendered safe.  As
>>>> many government employees could be killed until that occurs.
>>>> No limit whatsoever. So, where does Bob Murphy get off saying
>>>> that the "Average American" would find AP "nutty and
>>>> horrible"?  I say, to the contrary, that a _well-informed_
>>>> "average American", informed of what I say AP could
>>>> accomplish, would find Murphy himself and his arguments
>>>> "nutty and horrible".  Why should the citizens of the world
>>>> tolerate the killing of 250 million more people by 
>>>> governments, beyond the 20th Century's toll?  Why should the 
>>>> citizens of the world tolerate continuing to be held as
>>>> nuclear hostages, targets of 2000 nuclear bombs, just to keep
>>>> a few governments in power?  Clearly, Murphy views the
>>>> world's citizens' "natural state" to being owned and held
>>>> hostage by governments, and certainly not the opposite!
>>>> 
>>>> " Especially if the government institutes a standing penalty
>>>> of, say, a mandatory twenty-five years for placing an AP
>>>> donation, I don't think we will have the millions of small
>>>> donations that AP requires. The situation would be a
>>>> prisoner's dilemma: No individual donation of $10 or even
>>>> $100 is going to make the difference between a target being
>>>> killed or not, and so there would be no reason for the
>>>> average person to use AP. The fact that the donations could
>>>> be made "safely" is not enough; the government would surely
>>>> institute eavesdropping measures and would punish anyone who
>>>> even visited AP sites."
>>>> 
>>>> Murphy, here, is beginning to show his 'inner paranoid'.
>>>> "They would never let us do it!!!"Which, is one reasons we
>>>> MUST do it. I would say, to the contrary of what he said,
>>>> that if "they", the governments, don't want us to do
>>>> something SO MUCH, then that's all the more reason we should
>>>> disregard those governments' official desires.
>>>> Jim Bell
>>>> 
> 
> There are arguably technical countermeasures to his argument. E.g.
> PoC:
> 
> https://github.com/Miserlou/HitStarter
> 
> ^^ you might get a kick out of that ^^
> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
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