Russia and China crack Snowden Cache

[Tim Beelen]

You're conflating a bunch of things.

You can't have a criminal organization without crime, which require 
illegality, which requires laws which require a governing body. A 
government usually does not declare itself illegal so, no, it's not 
going to be a criminal enterprise.

You're just being pedantic.

On 6/17/2015 3:33 PM, Juan wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Jun 2015 08:53:55 -0400
> Tim Beelen <tim at diffalt.com> wrote:
>
>> So, you have no knowledge of all the details of the CIA's actions,
>> but you are sure that they consist of violations? Is that right?
>
> 	Of course. Government is a criminal organization, by
> 	definition.
>
> 	That's all you need to know about it.
>
>
>> By the way, the CIA is under congressional oversight. That is where
>> accountability ends. They don't have to explain themselves to you.
>>
>> How effective is this oversight? I think the vast majority Members of
>> Congress in general do not have the cognitive skills to understand
>> the issues that the CIA creates. Let alone come to an agreement on
>> how to handle the agency.
>>
>> To summarize the problem: the CIA is has about 20.000 employees.
>> Which is substantially bigger then in the 1950s where they had maybe
>> about 4-5.000. They are an intelligence office. They started out
>> gathering intelligence, gained intelligence gathering capabilities
>> and now have capabilities to operate independently to some extent for
>> some years.
>>
>> Now, we know they spy on Congress. Manipulate congress. Overthrow
>> governments. Steer elections. But who controls them? With no
>> oversight they basically do 'whatever' and 'whatever' is quite a
>> dangerous thing to do. Now, in hindsight, I don't care if they go
>> around the world and bully people into playing nice. But that is
>> besides the point.
>>
>> The problem is the culture. Recent breaches of security contractors
>> have shown that information technology information gatherers (ITIG)
>> employs a lot of clowns. Like you, you want a polarized version of
>> the world where the CIA is bad. Just bad. And by your own admission
>> you don't even care what they do, you are just looking to punish
>> them. That is not a data driven assessment, it's just operating on
>> assumptions. Which is what the U.S. Government's foreign policies are
>> based on. Which is why I know that either a. the CIA does not hold
>> it's information gathering capabilities to a professional standard,
>> or b, they listen to clowns.
>>
>> And this brings us back to the CIA who is SUPPOSED TO JUST FUCKING BE
>> MIDDLE MANAGEMENT. Instead they gave middle management a gun and told
>> them to go fix things in the world. Middle management has always been
>> decorated five U.S. flags, with sprinkles with red white and blue and
>> enough U.S. jingoism to fill a stadium. I.e. it created the CIA.
>>
>> Now I assume, as a Congressional committee, that every time you ask
>> the CIA for a report on a foreign issue they do a little sing and
>> dance and ask for more money to go solve it. Because the following
>> things are *always* valid: a. They can claim they have limited
>> capabilities to get men on the ground. and b. With the right people
>> and equipment and amount of cash Congress does not have to send in
>> the military if things get really nasty if they solve it for them.
>>
>> Other then that I don't think people working for the CIA are that
>> different from the majority in that they polarize the world to
>> preserve their sanity: They want every Arab to be bad. And actively
>> want to know everything about them, just to make them look bad. They
>> know that ever Congress Member or committee might not vote in their
>> best interest, so everyone needs to be manipulated.
>>
>> And if I had a track record of overthrowing governments, fixing
>> elections and operating with impunity overseas because foreign
>> governments *allow* them. I'd be feeling pretty awesome about myself
>> too. All the while they are operating under the grace of congress.
>>
>> This is not the only institute that grew out of control in the United
>> States.
>>
>> And the fact that I don't sleep well is that even if I printed this
>> piece of text on a piece of paper and went around congress and tacked
>> it on each of their foreheads it would not change anything. It is
>> just that to be make a person aware of a problem does not give them
>> the skills or knowledge to deal with it.
>>
>> And really, all congress has to do is take the gun away from middle
>> management. This ofc is a bad analogy. I believe everyone should be
>> able to carry a gun if they please.
>>
>>> Are you suggesting CIA, NSA, FBI, etc ought do what they will,
>>> except ath someone is able to say that what they've been doing is
>>> not in U.S. best interest? That sounds inane.
>>>
>>> I am not even in U.S. nor a U.S. citizen - to me your statement
>>> sounds highly problematic and indicative and problematic
>>> nationalist think.
>> Yes. I like my country. I has lots of nice people.
>>> Yes we need a balance of powers in the world - we need national
>>> strength and unity, but this applies to all countries, not just to
>>> the U.S.!
>> Considering what you said about the problems with nationalistic think
>> in your last paragraph I take this as an admission you're well versed
>> in doublethink.
>>> Collections of power, as happens with govt, attract more power
>>> abusers than benevolent dictators, unfortunately. For this reason,
>>> a one world government would be doomed from the outset. We need a
>>> strong Russia, a strong America, and strong small countries etc.
>> I don't need a stronk Russia. Russian culture is not conducive to how
>> I'd like people to run things. Emphasis on people. Not the government.
>>> It's the only hope for any long term semblance of balance. If the
>>> world we a single U.S.A.W. entity, Snowden could never have
>>> happened. Of course Snowden required a courageous individual too,
>>> but it would have required someone willing to actually give up the
>>> rest of their life if there were no possbility of sanction anywhere
>>> in the world.
>> The Ed event would still have happened. It is just the retarded
>> notion that to be make a person aware of somehow gives them the
>> insight to deal with it.
>>> You might reconsider your push to have someone other than yourself
>>> somehow prove that the CIA's actions over the decades have not been
>>> in U.S. best interests, or that this is a relevant question!
>> I frankly don't care. I just don't want them to have the ability to
>> muck things up. Because it kinda proves they have issues. I don't
>> mind them doing good for the wrong reasons. It's doing bad for the
>> right reasons.
>>
>> The CIA has very well funded issues. VERY WELL FUNDED... VERY WELL...
>> VERY... WELL... funded? And if they don't get the funds directly they
>> start running dope and sell guns.
>>
>> So, CIA's issues are a domestic issue. So I'm pointing my finger at
>> Congress. And since this is a democracy I'm kinda limited to the rule
>> of the majority.