cypherpunks Digest, Vol 25, Issue 9
ksenia bellman
k at friendlygruppen.se
Fri Jul 10 03:25:36 PDT 2015
on the topic of Bitcoin philosophical musings and pressures:
There unusually a lot of btc discussion on the list lately: technical (the
fork), philosophical and practical.
On the philosophical/political side: btc is great, I like it, I use it,
but, come on, we all know that by design (increasing difficulty of the
chain and proof-of-work system) btc is determined to be a space race.
Before you can maintain the network with simple hardware, and get btc for
it, now you have to be a mining rig. We know that btc is good for P2P
financial transactions, but the first important question now is:
How do you earn bitcoin? (as an individual, you can't mine, if you are not
a programmer or a designer, how do you earn btc?)
It becomes less and less of a question how do you spend btc, but still,
unless I mined a lot in the past or bought it for cash, where do I get it?
Secondly, the rhetoric we hear often in the mainstream btc discussion is
"it is a solution for banking the Unbanked" This talk is obviously dodgy -
lets say "the unbanked wants to be banked" if you have an account with
nothing in it, and no way of filling it in, there is no point.
The only good thing about btc walled vs bank account when its empty is that
there is no one is proposing you to get an overdraft or a loan. But still,
empty btc wallet is pretty useless.
Rather decent response to poitical btc frenzy I found in this post -
https://blog.caseykuhlman.com/entries/2014/bitcoin-somaliland.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=%24feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+underWater+desert+Blogging
Another mainstream talk is: its not about bitcooin, it is all about
blockchain technology. Thats correct, it can be useful for some stuff. But
what drives me up the walll is a hype around it mixed with vagueness. "We
can build all this amazing socio-technical systems with it" and very
rarely, amongst general public (not blockchain devs) you come across
concrete ideas of a design. What exactly does this weird data structure
does in a very specific social context? What are exact detailed functions
it has, how does it integrates with other layers - software and hardware.
So the talk "some devs will write cryptographically verifiable scripts for
us which interact on the blockchain and it will give the world some cool
ways of interaction" is just dangerous. Similar rhetoric brought humanity
things such as Facebook.
The only thing which i consider right in the blockchain discussion that
"ok, it allows adding some features to a system that can be useful in some
particular cases"
On the technical side: fork, xt-code etc - I would like to organise and
stream a panel discussion on WCN <http://www.worldcryptonetwork.com/>
channel soon-ish. I dont want to turn cypherpunk list into a Bitcoin Talk
:) but will ping a link here and the time we will schedule it.
On 8 July 2015 at 01:22, <cypherpunks-request at cpunks.org> wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Bitcoin philosophical musings and pressures 7 years in
> [drifted from: txrate, forking, etc] (grarpamp)
> 2. "Google is to surveillance capitalism what GM was to
> managerial capitalism" (Razer)
> 3. Re: Bitcoin philosophical musings and pressures 7 years in
> [drifted from: txrate, forking, etc] (Juan)
> 4. Re: Hacking Team has been hacked (hard) (Razer)
> 5. Re: Bitcoin philosophical musings and pressures 7 years in
> [drifted from: txrate, forking, etc] (Sean Lynch)
> 6. Re: Bitcoin philosophical musings and pressures 7 years in
> [drifted from: txrate, forking, etc] (Lodewijk andré de la porte)
> 7. Re: Bitcoin philosophical musings and pressures 7 years in
> [drifted from: txrate, forking, etc] (Sean Lynch)
> 8. Re: Bitcoin philosophical musings and pressures 7 years in
> [drifted from: txrate, forking, etc] (Lodewijk andré de la porte)
> 9. Re: Bitcoin philosophical musings and pressures 7 years in
> [drifted from: txrate, forking, etc] (Juan)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2015 15:21:50 -0400
> From: grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com>
> To: Cpunks List <cypherpunks at cpunks.org>
> Cc: bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> Subject: Bitcoin philosophical musings and pressures 7 years in
> [drifted from: txrate, forking, etc]
> Message-ID:
> <CAD2Ti28Tw7Kz+RoW3DYqEPbB4KfS=
> TiTSwbtneL7ps1QsKvzvw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> > Then again maybe I am missing the key reasoning for this fork.
>
> People often miss the fundamental reasons Bitcoin exists,
> the various conjoined ethos behind its creation. This is to be
> expected, it's so far ouside any thinking or life process they've
> ever had to do or been exposed to. It's also partly why figuring
> out what to do or code or adopt, is hard. And certainly not made
> any easier by the long term need and the current value at stake.
>
> Creating a system in which a Botswanan can give a few bits
> of their impoverished wages to their friend in Mumbai without
> it being gated, permitted, hierarchied, middlemanned, taxed,
> tracked, stolen and feed-upon until pointless... this simply
> doesn't compute for these people. Their school of thought is
> centralization, profit, control and oppression. So of course they
> see txrate ramming up against an artificial wall as perfectly fine,
> it enables and perpetuates their legacy ways.
>
> Regardless of whichever technical way the various walls are torn down,
> what's important is that they are. And that those who are thinking
> outside the box do, and continue to, take time to school these
> legacy people such that they might someday become enlightened
> and join the ethos.
>
> Otherwise might as well work for ICBC, JPMC, HSBC, BNP, MUFG
> and your favorite government. Probably not as much fun though.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2015 13:32:35 -0700
> From: Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net>
> To: cypherpunks at cpunks.org
> Subject: "Google is to surveillance capitalism what GM was to
> managerial capitalism"
> Message-ID: <559C3763.1000205 at riseup.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>
> > Big Other: Surveillance Capitalism and the Prospects of an Information
> > Civilization
> >
> > Shoshana Zuboff, Berkman Center for Internet & Society; Harvard
> > Business School
> >
> > April 4, 2015
> >
> > Abstract:
> > This article describes an emergent logic of accumulation in the
> > networked sphere, ‘surveillance capitalism,’ and considers its
> > implications for ‘information civilization.’ Google is to surveillance
> > capitalism what General Motors was to managerial capitalism. Therefore
> > the institutionalizing practices and operational assumptions of Google
> > Inc. are the primary lens for this analysis as they are rendered in
> > two recent articles authored by Google Chief Economist Hal Varian.
> >
> > Varian asserts four uses that follow from computer-mediated
> > transactions: ‘data extraction and analysis,’ ‘new contractual forms
> > due to better monitoring,’ ‘personalization and customization,’ and
> > ‘continuous experiments.’
> >
> > An examination of the nature and consequences of these uses sheds
> > light on the implicit logic of surveillance capitalism and the global
> > architecture of computer mediation upon which it depends. This
> > architecture produces a distributed and largely uncontested new
> > expression of power that I christen: ‘Big Other.’ It is constituted by
> > unexpected and often illegible mechanisms of extraction,
> > commodification, and control that effectively exile persons from their
> > own behavior while producing new markets of behavioral prediction and
> > modification. Surveillance capitalism challenges democratic norms and
> > departs in key ways from the centuries long evolution of market
> > capitalism.
> >
> > Number of Pages in PDF File: 15
> >
> > Keywords: surveillance capitalism, big data, Google, information
> > society, privacy, internet of everything
>
> http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2594754
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2015 18:57:16 -0300
> From: Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com>
> To: cypherpunks at cpunks.org
> Subject: Re: Bitcoin philosophical musings and pressures 7 years in
> [drifted from: txrate, forking, etc]
> Message-ID: <559c4b24.d6a48c0a.a6394.0140 at mx.google.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> On Tue, 7 Jul 2015 15:21:50 -0400
> grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> > Creating a system in which a Botswanan can give a few bits
> > of their impoverished wages to their friend in Mumbai
>
>
> What? Bitcoin exists so that rich people in western countries
> especially the US can become even richer. So far it worked
> pretty well.
>
> Bitcoin hasn't led to any meaningful political/economic
> change yet, apart from possibly triggering the demise of
> government cash, which would be a complete disaster. Talk about
> 'unintended consequences' (unintended?)
>
> A likely scenario exists in which there wouldn't be any
> independent crypto-currency. There would be fully 'traceable'
> electronic currencies controlled as always by the state and the
> banking mafia.
>
>
>
> > without
> > it being gated, permitted, hierarchied, middlemanned, taxed,
> > tracked, stolen and feed-upon until pointless... this simply
> > doesn't compute for these people. Their school of thought is
> > centralization, profit, control and oppression. So of course they
> > see txrate ramming up against an artificial wall as perfectly fine,
> > it enables and perpetuates their legacy ways.
> >
> > Regardless of whichever technical way the various walls are torn down,
> > what's important is that they are. And that those who are thinking
> > outside the box do, and continue to, take time to school these
> > legacy people such that they might someday become enlightened
> > and join the ethos.
> >
> > Otherwise might as well work for ICBC, JPMC, HSBC, BNP, MUFG
> > and your favorite government. Probably not as much fun though.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2015 15:11:20 -0700
> From: Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net>
> To: cypherpunks at cpunks.org
> Subject: Re: Hacking Team has been hacked (hard)
> Message-ID: <559C4E88.4050506 at riseup.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>
>
> On 07/05/2015 08:31 PM, Christian Gagneraud wrote:
> > As nobody has reported it yet, here we go:
> > https://twitter.com/hackingteam
> >
>
> Ahhh! Here we go...
>
> > (In Solidarity with:) “everyone in Gaza, Israeli
> > conscientious-objectors, Chelsea Manning, Jeremy Hammond, Peter Sunde,
> > anakata, and all other imprisoned hackers, dissidents, and criminals!”
>
> By the hacker who doxxed Hacking Team:
>
> > | | | | __ _ ___| | __ | __ ) __ _ ___| | _| |
> > | |_| |/ _` |/ __| |/ / | _ \ / _` |/ __| |/ / |
> > | _ | (_| | (__| < | |_) | (_| | (__| <|_|
> > |_| |_|\__,_|\___|_|\_\ |____/ \__,_|\___|_|\_(_)
> >
> > A DIY Guide for those without the patience to wait for
> whistleblowers
> >
> >
> > --[ 1 ]-- Introduction
> >
> > I'm not writing this to brag about what an 31337 h4x0r I am and what m4d
> sk1llz
> > it took to 0wn Gamma. I'm writing this to demystify hacking, to show how
> simple
> > it is, and to hopefully inform and inspire you to go out and hack shit.
> If you
> > have no experience with programming or hacking, some of the text below
> might
> > look like a foreign language. Check the resources section at the end to
> help you
> > get started. And trust me, once you've learned the basics you'll realize
> this
> > really is easier than filing a FOIA request.
> >
> >
> > --[ 2 ]-- Staying Safe
> >
> > This is illegal, so you'll need to take same basic precautions:
>
> http://0x27.me/HackBack/0x00.txt (wget this file if paranoid)
>
> Via Morgan Mayhem
>
> https://twitter.com/headhntr/status/618513829282975744
>
> Mirrored @ my tumblr
>
> http://auntieimperial.tumblr.com/post/123489352994
>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2015 22:27:01 +0000
> From: Sean Lynch <seanl at literati.org>
> To: Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com>, cypherpunks at cpunks.org
> Subject: Re: Bitcoin philosophical musings and pressures 7 years in
> [drifted from: txrate, forking, etc]
> Message-ID:
> <
> CAHKdp-kqaytz2DJqz-a_wynZNKpi147yNWXMpUfBQWmuLuZu-w at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 3:02 PM Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 7 Jul 2015 15:21:50 -0400
> > grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > > Creating a system in which a Botswanan can give a few bits
> > > of their impoverished wages to their friend in Mumbai
> >
> >
> > What? Bitcoin exists so that rich people in western countries
> > especially the US can become even richer. So far it worked
> > pretty well.
> >
>
> Really? What rich person has gotten richer through Bitcoin so far?
> Remittances seem like the biggest use of Bitcoin at the moment. Sure,
> there's plenty of speculation, but your claim that Bitcoin's purpose is to
> make the rich richer is also speculation. And FUD.
>
>
> > Bitcoin hasn't led to any meaningful political/economic
> > change yet, apart from possibly triggering the demise of
> > government cash, which would be a complete disaster. Talk about
> > 'unintended consequences' (unintended?)
> >
>
> I can't imagine you've read a single thing written by the people who
> influenced the creation of Bitcoin if you think that the collapse of fiat
> currencies is an unintended consequence. Any fiat currency that is so bad
> that its users prefer to use Bitcoin deserves to collapse. Of course, so
> far, while Bitcoin has become popular in places like Argentina and
> Venezuela, the US dollar remains by far the more popular alternative
> currency in those places. And if Greece exits the Euro and starts printing
> Drachmas there, they will have to worry about people trading their Drachmas
> for Euros, not for Bitcoin.
>
>
> > A likely scenario exists in which there wouldn't be any
> > independent crypto-currency. There would be fully 'traceable'
> > electronic currencies controlled as always by the state and the
> > banking mafia.
> >
>
> By what evidence do you estimate that this is a "likely" scenario? You may
> be right that many nation-states and banks will be loathe to accept an
> untraceable and uncontrollable crypto-currency, but that's the whole point;
> they're not going to have a choice. Cryptocurrencies don't have to be legal
> to be disruptive. The main problem that they've run up against before now
> is the lack of healthy underground markets to take advantage of them. Given
> time, governments' and banks' opinions and policies about cryptocurrencies
> will become irrelevant.
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2015 07:50:04 +0900
> From: Lodewijk andré de la porte <l at odewijk.nl>
> To: Sean Lynch <seanl at literati.org>
> Cc: "cypherpunks at cpunks.org" <cypherpunks at cpunks.org>
> Subject: Re: Bitcoin philosophical musings and pressures 7 years in
> [drifted from: txrate, forking, etc]
> Message-ID:
> <
> CAHWD2rLq2QpL+LM8NvS5yhiAEm7zUDKFqXrbrAsabLWzV7XmdA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> 2015-07-08 7:27 GMT+09:00 Sean Lynch <seanl at literati.org>:
>
> > What? Bitcoin exists so that rich people in western countries
> >> especially the US can become even richer. So far it worked
> >> pretty well.
> >>
> >
> > Really? What rich person has gotten richer through Bitcoin so far?
> > Remittances seem like the biggest use of Bitcoin at the moment. Sure,
> > there's plenty of speculation, but your claim that Bitcoin's purpose is
> to
> > make the rich richer is also speculation. And FUD.
> >
>
> Yours would the Uncertainty and Doubt, I see.
>
> Bitcoin is cold hard money - therefore benefiting those that can exploit it
> best. The most capital you have, the better you can exploit it. Therefore,
> the wealthy stand more to benefit from Bitcoin than anyone else. Any other
> effect would indicate softness of Bitcoin or some human issue. It does
> prevent (certain forms of) suppression; it's very hard to censor financial
> transactions on the Bitcoin network. It also provides a great deal of
> financial and administrative utility to all in similar quantity, it levels
> the playing field of the poor/rich somewhat.
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2015 22:53:36 +0000
> From: Sean Lynch <seanl at literati.org>
> To: Lodewijk andré de la porte <l at odewijk.nl>
> Cc: "cypherpunks at cpunks.org" <cypherpunks at cpunks.org>
> Subject: Re: Bitcoin philosophical musings and pressures 7 years in
> [drifted from: txrate, forking, etc]
> Message-ID:
> <CAHKdp-mssc5=Urb7SnLtbJcJJiNg6BDt3eg=
> DWWPs-hkkYPwFg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 3:50 PM Lodewijk andré de la porte <l at odewijk.nl>
> wrote:
>
> > 2015-07-08 7:27 GMT+09:00 Sean Lynch <seanl at literati.org>:
> >
> >> What? Bitcoin exists so that rich people in western countries
> >>> especially the US can become even richer. So far it worked
> >>> pretty well.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Really? What rich person has gotten richer through Bitcoin so far?
> >> Remittances seem like the biggest use of Bitcoin at the moment. Sure,
> >> there's plenty of speculation, but your claim that Bitcoin's purpose is
> to
> >> make the rich richer is also speculation. And FUD.
> >>
> >
> > Yours would the Uncertainty and Doubt, I see.
> >
> > Bitcoin is cold hard money - therefore benefiting those that can exploit
> > it best. The most capital you have, the better you can exploit it.
> > Therefore, the wealthy stand more to benefit from Bitcoin than anyone
> else.
> > Any other effect would indicate softness of Bitcoin or some human issue.
> It
> > does prevent (certain forms of) suppression; it's very hard to censor
> > financial transactions on the Bitcoin network. It also provides a great
> > deal of financial and administrative utility to all in similar quantity,
> it
> > levels the playing field of the poor/rich somewhat.
> >
>
> Perhaps my response was a bit hyperbolic, but that is a very different
> claim than "Bitcoin exists so that rich people in western countries
> especially the US can become even richer."
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2015 08:21:48 +0900
> From: Lodewijk andré de la porte <l at odewijk.nl>
> To: Sean Lynch <seanl at literati.org>
> Cc: "cypherpunks at cpunks.org" <cypherpunks at cpunks.org>
> Subject: Re: Bitcoin philosophical musings and pressures 7 years in
> [drifted from: txrate, forking, etc]
> Message-ID:
> <CAHWD2rKv90K_dWs2KQTw=robaiGKmAQFUiczCppoMF0S=
> bz0hQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> 2015-07-08 7:53 GMT+09:00 Sean Lynch <seanl at literati.org>:
> >
> > Perhaps my response was a bit hyperbolic, but that is a very different
> > claim than "Bitcoin exists so that rich people in western countries
> > especially the US can become even richer."
> >
>
> Put on your Juanglasses and the difference is hardly perceptible ;)
>
> Still not sure what to make of the guy's constant rant-mode. It just seems
> to cause defensive and less constructive argumentation.
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2015 20:22:32 -0300
> From: Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com>
> To: cypherpunks at cpunks.org
> Subject: Re: Bitcoin philosophical musings and pressures 7 years in
> [drifted from: txrate, forking, etc]
> Message-ID: <559c5f23.c328370a.7776d.1c71 at mx.google.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> On Tue, 07 Jul 2015 22:27:01 +0000
> Sean Lynch <seanl at literati.org> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 3:02 PM Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On Tue, 7 Jul 2015 15:21:50 -0400
> > > grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > > Creating a system in which a Botswanan can give a few bits
> > > > of their impoverished wages to their friend in Mumbai
> > >
> > >
> > > What? Bitcoin exists so that rich people in western
> > > countries especially the US can become even richer. So far it worked
> > > pretty well.
> > >
> >
> > Really? What rich person has gotten richer through Bitcoin so far?
>
>
> It seems kinda obvious that virtually all bitcoin developers
> and users *in the west* are richer than people in Africa and
> India.
>
> That's what I was getting at. Bitcoin devs - *already
> rich by 'third world' standards* - are richer now. Millionaires
> even (notice that grarpamp was talking about impoverished
> wages...and people)
>
>
>
> > Remittances seem like the biggest use of Bitcoin at the moment. Sure,
> > there's plenty of speculation, but your claim that Bitcoin's purpose
> > is to make the rich richer is also speculation. And FUD.
>
>
> So what amount of btc is being used to make payments between
> Botswana and Mumbai?
>
> What amount of btc is being used to speculate/gamble in a few
> big, centralized and fully NSA-AML-monitored exchanges?
>
>
> >
> >
> > > Bitcoin hasn't led to any meaningful political/economic
> > > change yet, apart from possibly triggering the demise of
> > > government cash, which would be a complete disaster. Talk
> > > about 'unintended consequences' (unintended?)
> > >
> >
> > I can't imagine you've read a single thing written by the people who
> > influenced the creation of Bitcoin if you think that the collapse of
> > fiat currencies is an unintended consequence.
>
>
> But I said *cash* not fiat. And the collapse of relatively
> untraceable *cash* is *bad*.
>
> What we may end up with is FIAT currencies and NO CASH
> option* for those fiat currencies. Bad. Pretty bad.
>
>
> *aka credit cards.
>
>
> > Any fiat currency that
> > is so bad that its users prefer to use Bitcoin deserves to collapse.
> > Of course, so far, while Bitcoin has become popular in places like
> > Argentina
>
> Do you know where I live? Of course you don't have to know
> where I live. But you'll know it in a second anyway. I live in
> argentina - and let me tell you, bitcoin isnt exactly 'popular'
> here.
>
>
> > and Venezuela, the US dollar remains by far the more
> > popular alternative currency in those places.
>
> Yep, that's quite correct as far as argentina goes. I suspect
> it's true regarding venezuela as well.
>
>
>
> > And if Greece exits the
> > Euro and starts printing Drachmas there, they will have to worry
> > about people trading their Drachmas for Euros, not for Bitcoin.
>
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > > A likely scenario exists in which there wouldn't be any
> > > independent crypto-currency. There would be fully
> > > 'traceable' electronic currencies controlled as always by the state
> > > and the banking mafia.
> > >
> >
> > By what evidence do you estimate that this is a "likely" scenario?
>
>
> The evidence is called 'history'. That, and the nature of
> government and its business 'partners' - or accomplices.
>
>
> > You may be right that many nation-states and banks will be loathe to
> > accept an untraceable and uncontrollable crypto-currency, but that's
> > the whole point;
>
> You seem to be assuming that an uncontrollable and untraceable
> crypto-currency exist? I'm not seeing anything of the sort.
>
>
> > they're not going to have a choice. Cryptocurrencies
> > don't have to be legal to be disruptive.
>
> And yet there seems to be a fair amount of people in the bitcoin
> 'community' who are quite eager (or desperate) to have bitcoin
> 'regulated' so that it becomes 'respectable', 'legal'...and
> usable.
>
> Of course, this isn't a shortcoming that only affects btc.
> Anything that the government 'outlaws' becomes harder to
> transact.
>
>
>
> > The main problem that
> > they've run up against before now is the lack of healthy underground
> > markets to take advantage of them. Given time, governments' and
> > banks' opinions and policies about cryptocurrencies will become
> > irrelevant.
>
>
> I do wish that was actually the case, but I think that view
> doesn't fully take into account the capabilities of the
> 'enemy'.
>
>
>
> J.
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
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> cypherpunks at cpunks.org
> https://cpunks.org/mailman/listinfo/cypherpunks
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of cypherpunks Digest, Vol 25, Issue 9
> ******************************************
>
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