cypherpunks Digest, Vol 19, Issue 9

John Elicker jwelicker@gmail.com
Wed Jan 7 20:12:34 PST 2015


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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Please stop top posting [was: TrueCrupt...] (Cathal Garvey)
>    2. Re: Please stop top posting [was: TrueCrupt...] (Mark Steward)
>    3. Re: Rant on BSD vs GPL was [Good ol' BSD vs. GPL] (grarpamp)
>    4. Re: Please stop top posting [was: TrueCrupt...] (Cathal Garvey)
>    5. Re: Rant on BSD vs GPL was [Good ol' BSD vs. GPL]
>       (Georgi Guninski)
>    6. Re: Rant on BSD vs GPL was [Good ol' BSD vs. GPL] (Cathal Garvey)
>    7. Re: Please stop top posting [was: TrueCrupt...] (Griffin Boyce)
>    8. Re: Rant on BSD vs GPL was [Good ol' BSD vs. GPL] (grarpamp)
>    9. What is offtopic and what should be avoided on this list?
>       (Georgi Guninski)
>   10. Re: Re: Please stop top posting [was: TrueCrupt...] (stef)
>   11. Re: Rant on BSD vs GPL was [Good ol' BSD vs. GPL]
>       (Georgi Guninski)
>   12. Re: Rant on BSD vs GPL was [Good ol' BSD vs. GPL]
>       (Georgi Guninski)
>   13. Re: Please stop top posting [was: TrueCrupt...] (grarpamp)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2015 10:21:42 +0000
> From: Cathal Garvey <cathalgarvey@cathalgarvey.me>
> To: cypherpunks@cpunks.org
> Subject: Re: Please stop top posting [was: TrueCrupt...]
> Message-ID: <54AD08B6.1070603@cathalgarvey.me>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
>  > You know the history and reasons the internet has against top
>  > posting, especially on newgroups and mailing lists.
>
> I know the reasons but they don't apply to me, nor to a growing majority
> of users who don't use text-only clients. Most clients these days are
> pre-configured to hide replied-to text unless directly quoted, making
> pre-quoted text actually more irritating than sub-quoted.
>
> Despite this, I *do* use text-only mode, and nevertheless find scrolling
> down to find replies inline irksome.
>
> So, as I mentioned previously, this is a cultural difference; I find
> your preferred mode annoying, and you find mine annoying. Tough; you
> don't own the internet, and neither do I. I won't waste my time
> conforming to your expectations, and you won't to mine. So we get over
> it and move on.
>
> ..did you really call top-posting "abuse of other people"? Dude, get
> some perspective!
>
> On 07/01/15 10:07, grarpamp wrote:
> >> On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 5:52 AM, Cathal Garvey <
> cathalgarvey@cathalgarvey.me> wrote:
> >>
> >> However, sorry, but I'll continue emailing as I always have done; if I
> >> come from a different internet culture to you, and if top-posting is
> >> anathema to you but not I, that's just
> >
> > ... lazy.
> >
> > You know the history and reasons the internet has against top
> > posting, especially on newgroups and mailing lists. You and everyone
> > else top posting are just lazy culture at the expense/abuse of other
> > people, in particular the brain power needed to decipher your
> > messages in both direction and context. Stop wasting hundreds of
> > other people's cycles and invest some of your own. Learn trimming
> > and interleaving replies, google it, make your mail art, not dog shit.
> >
> > (: shitter a as but
> > asses lazy your
> > to cost no it's
> > all After. off else
> > everyone pissing on
> > keep, want all you
> > what that's if But.
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 10:37:43 +0000
> From: Mark Steward <marksteward@gmail.com>
> To: grarpamp <grarpamp@gmail.com>
> Cc: "cypherpunks@cpunks.org" <cypherpunks@cpunks.org>
> Subject: Re: Please stop top posting [was: TrueCrupt...]
> Message-ID:
>         <
> CAPyX2ncw3jDRW43TvK8OA5+FE43TX8orPQG3wnKSczRO07d7ZQ@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> UNSUBSCRIBE
>
> On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 10:07 AM, grarpamp <grarpamp@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 5:52 AM, Cathal Garvey <
> > cathalgarvey@cathalgarvey.me> wrote:
> > >
> > > However, sorry, but I'll continue emailing as I always have done; if I
> > > come from a different internet culture to you, and if top-posting is
> > > anathema to you but not I, that's just
> >
> > ... lazy.
> >
> > You know the history and reasons the internet has against top
> > posting, especially on newgroups and mailing lists. You and everyone
> > else top posting are just lazy culture at the expense/abuse of other
> > people, in particular the brain power needed to decipher your
> > messages in both direction and context. Stop wasting hundreds of
> > other people's cycles and invest some of your own. Learn trimming
> > and interleaving replies, google it, make your mail art, not dog shit.
> >
> > (: shitter a as but
> > asses lazy your
> > to cost no it's
> > all After. off else
> > everyone pissing on
> > keep, want all you
> > what that's if But.
> >
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 06:04:15 -0500
> From: grarpamp <grarpamp@gmail.com>
> To: cypherpunks@cpunks.org
> Subject: Re: Rant on BSD vs GPL was [Good ol' BSD vs. GPL]
> Message-ID:
>         <
> CAD2Ti28cjFjavRrN_5vVtFo2-CpJKj+MBROh+0s+L0BDpAXxpA@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 4:48 AM, Cathal Garvey
> <cathalgarvey@cathalgarvey.me> wrote:
> > Patents and profiting
> > from patents is an unrelated discussion to copyright-based licensing.
>
> Patents came about a bit before copyright. Today patents
> talk about licensing, and copyright talks about patent. They're
> not exactly inseparable.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent
>
> > But there are plenty of people out there willing to Embrace Extend
> > Extinguish, which GPL protects against (patent clauses and copyleft) and
> BSD
> > does not.
>
> You cannot extinguish BSD software. You may close your
> copy. However the original branch unaffected by that. Nor can
> you patent your copy of BSD code, the code itself exists as prior art.
> Copyleft or not is of no concern to actual extinguishment.
> Patenting your subsequent mods to code may yes block
> others from moving in that same direction. That's really a
> question of patent reform, not license. Restricting patents
> in license like GPL is interesting and useful (presuming
> tested as enforceable) if you're worried about direction.
> Don't mistake patent restrictions as freedom though.
>
> As Juan may tell you, both patents and license are bullshit,
> at least to some people.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2015 11:16:17 +0000
> From: Cathal Garvey <cathalgarvey@cathalgarvey.me>
> To: cypherpunks@cpunks.org
> Subject: Re: Please stop top posting [was: TrueCrupt...]
> Message-ID: <54AD1581.9080108@cathalgarvey.me>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> AFAIC there's nothing left to say, so you'll hear no more from me.
> Sorry, not something I especially like discussing nor seen discussing. I
> did enjoy writing the one-liner though.
>
> On 07/01/15 10:37, Mark Steward wrote:
> > UNSUBSCRIBE
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 10:07 AM, grarpamp <grarpamp@gmail.com
> > <mailto:grarpamp@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> >      > On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 5:52 AM, Cathal Garvey
> >     <cathalgarvey@cathalgarvey.me <mailto:cathalgarvey@cathalgarvey.me>>
> >     wrote:
> >      >
> >      > However, sorry, but I'll continue emailing as I always have done;
> >     if I
> >      > come from a different internet culture to you, and if top-posting
> is
> >      > anathema to you but not I, that's just
> >
> >     ... lazy.
> >
> >     You know the history and reasons the internet has against top
> >     posting, especially on newgroups and mailing lists. You and everyone
> >     else top posting are just lazy culture at the expense/abuse of other
> >     people, in particular the brain power needed to decipher your
> >     messages in both direction and context. Stop wasting hundreds of
> >     other people's cycles and invest some of your own. Learn trimming
> >     and interleaving replies, google it, make your mail art, not dog
> shit.
> >
> >     (: shitter a as but
> >     asses lazy your
> >     to cost no it's
> >     all After. off else
> >     everyone pissing on
> >     keep, want all you
> >     what that's if But.
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 13:25:18 +0200
> From: Georgi Guninski <guninski@guninski.com>
> To: grarpamp <grarpamp@gmail.com>
> Cc: "cypherpunks@cpunks.org" <cypherpunks@cpunks.org>
> Subject: Re: Rant on BSD vs GPL was [Good ol' BSD vs. GPL]
> Message-ID: <20150107112518.GB2512@sivokote.iziade.m$>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> On Wed, Jan 07, 2015 at 01:57:25AM -0500, grarpamp wrote:
> > > Georgi write:
> > > Dudes, you still using GPL GCC?
> >
> > Actually, no.
> >
>
> OK, this might have finally happened and I have been
> trolling bsd fanatics about gcc since at least 4 years
> (maybe more).
>
> Not an expert on compilers, but gcc has some extensions like
> __gnu*, some of which are widely used. Not sure how clang
> currently deals with them.
>
> Building just the kernel with clang is likely possibly, but
> bare kernel is not a distro.
>
> Till recently, I believe one couldn't build desktop
> environment only with clang, might be wrong on this.
>
> Unrelated: I am wondering why bigcorps like google/linksys
> use linux, when they could have used *bsd like
> apple/juniper.
>
>
>
>
> > https://bitrig.org/10.html
> > http://wiki.netbsd.org/tutorials/pkgsrc/clang/
> > https://wiki.freebsd.org/BuildingFreeBSDWithClang
> >
> http://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/49906/why-is-freebsd-deprecating-gcc-in-favor-of-clang-llvm
> > http://www.dragonflydigest.com/2014/10/22/14942.html
> > http://www.dragonflybsd.org/docs/developer/clang/
> > http://www.thejemreport.com/more-on-openbsds-new-compiler/
> > http://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article&sid=20091228231142
> > http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=137530560232232&w=2
> >
> > http://clang.debian.net/
> > http://llvm.linuxfoundation.org/
> >
> > https://wiki.debian.org/Debian_GNU/kFreeBSD
> > http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/gentoo-alt/bsd/fbsd/
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 3:45 PM, Lodewijk andré de la porte <l@odewijk.nl>
> wrote:
> > > GPL when something is everyone's property,
> >
> > Unless you're not "in", then suddenly they get ugly like you
> > broke their communal bong hit or something. They used to cry
> > if you didn't pass the code around, now they sic their lawyers
> > on you. That's not very free.
> >
> > > BSD when you ... just don't care.
> >
> > Exactly, everyone is in, do whatever you want. And it's almost
> > as unlimited as you can get under today's mandatory law for
> > those who say copyright is fiction. These days BSD says
> > basically two things:
> > 1) Do what you want.
> > 2) Author disclaims liability.
> >
> > It's hard to be more free than that under current law, yet...
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WTFPL
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2015 11:33:37 +0000
> From: Cathal Garvey <cathalgarvey@cathalgarvey.me>
> To: cypherpunks@cpunks.org
> Subject: Re: Rant on BSD vs GPL was [Good ol' BSD vs. GPL]
> Message-ID: <54AD1991.1010706@cathalgarvey.me>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
>  > You cannot extinguish BSD software. You may close your
>  > copy. However the original branch unaffected by that. Nor can
>  > you patent your copy of BSD code, the code itself exists as prior art.
>
> Embrace/Extend/Extinguish works by taking a codebase that can be
> improved (all codebases can be), making those improvements, and
> patenting the *improvements*. You can often successfully patent the
> original work, too, because the patent system is trash and open
> developers rarely have the resources to fight you.
>
> The original code remains open ("Yay!"), but now the open developers are
> not technically entitled according to patent law to make the obvious
> improvements they were probably planning to make, because they've been
> patented by an extinguisher (whether MS, Apple, Yahoo, Google, FB, or
> merely the competitor-next-door).
>
> Don't tell me that the obviousness of the obvious-next-steps will
> prevent patenting, because that's hogwash. This is the reality, it's
> what happens out there in the world.
>
> The GPL acknowledges this by forbidding suits within the scope of the
> work (I think: GPL experts on-list?), preventing E3 from occurring.
> Other licenses often take steps in this direction, but the ultra-short
> "friendly and permissive" licenses usually don't, or do so in such a
> terse and legally unenforceable way that they might as well not be.
>
>  > Don't mistake patent restrictions as freedom though.
>
> Freedoms can be implicitly restricted merely by the act of withholding
> essential things. Food, water can be restricted by "private ownership"
> of a well to the degree that others in an area starve to death or
> subjugate themselves to slavery: this is "freedom" to own something
> exclusively becoming the instrument of enslaving others.
>
> In a less dramatic but still important way, the "freedom" to proprietise
> a code-base can starve others of their freedoms by withholding what they
> need to exercise them, and potentially making them "slaves" to the code
> that has all the obvious improvements while forbidding free alternatives
> (patents).
>
> So, patent restrictions are freedom; they prevent the limitation of
> others' freedoms (being attacked with patents) by restricting the
> freedom of the licensor/licensee (to create or enforce patents).
> Preserving the rights of the few to patent and attack others opens the
> door to the abrogation of others' rights. Where, in this case, "others"
> can include the original developers whose work is co-opted,
> patent-encumbered, and proprietised.
>
> Freedom is not merely defined in law but in experience, and simply
> removing explicit limitations on freedom (copyleft licenses) does not
> mean that the total freedom in the world has increased.
>
> On 07/01/15 11:04, grarpamp wrote:
> > On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 4:48 AM, Cathal Garvey
> > <cathalgarvey@cathalgarvey.me> wrote:
> >> Patents and profiting
> >> from patents is an unrelated discussion to copyright-based licensing.
> >
> > Patents came about a bit before copyright. Today patents
> > talk about licensing, and copyright talks about patent. They're
> > not exactly inseparable.
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent
> >
> >> But there are plenty of people out there willing to Embrace Extend
> >> Extinguish, which GPL protects against (patent clauses and copyleft)
> and BSD
> >> does not.
> >
> > You cannot extinguish BSD software. You may close your
> > copy. However the original branch unaffected by that. Nor can
> > you patent your copy of BSD code, the code itself exists as prior art.
> > Copyleft or not is of no concern to actual extinguishment.
> > Patenting your subsequent mods to code may yes block
> > others from moving in that same direction. That's really a
> > question of patent reform, not license. Restricting patents
> > in license like GPL is interesting and useful (presuming
> > tested as enforceable) if you're worried about direction.
> > Don't mistake patent restrictions as freedom though.
> >
> > As Juan may tell you, both patents and license are bullshit,
> > at least to some people.
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2015 06:59:19 -0500
> From: Griffin Boyce <griffin@cryptolab.net>
> To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cpunks.org>
> Subject: Re: Please stop top posting [was: TrueCrupt...]
> Message-ID: <ee4925d9607c7bb65f94fb01dee73127@cryptolab.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>
>
> "Cypherpunks write code, not flamewars."
> ~Jurre van Bergen
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 07:00:24 -0500
> From: grarpamp <grarpamp@gmail.com>
> To: Georgi Guninski <guninski@guninski.com>
> Cc: "cypherpunks@cpunks.org" <cypherpunks@cpunks.org>
> Subject: Re: Rant on BSD vs GPL was [Good ol' BSD vs. GPL]
> Message-ID:
>         <CAD2Ti28S1tihe3xJqmaBbwsfZme=
> 13b4KBCPQ+9qXo+-eRSMbQ@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 6:25 AM, Georgi Guninski <guninski@guninski.com>
> wrote:
> > Building just the kernel with clang is likely possibly, but
> > bare kernel is not a distro.
> >
> > Till recently, I believe one couldn't build desktop
> > environment only with clang, might be wrong on this.
>
> As in the links, the entire FreeBSD kernel, base,
> and most of it's ~25,000 ports build with clang. X,
> browsers, whatever. The others are not as far along.
> Not bad considering clang itself is a "till recently".
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 14:05:53 +0200
> From: Georgi Guninski <guninski@guninski.com>
> To: cypherpunks@cpunks.org
> Subject: What is offtopic and what should be avoided on this list?
> Message-ID: <20150107120553.GC2512@sivokote.iziade.m$>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> What is offtopic and what should be avoided on this list?
>
> I would like to know what is offtopic and what should be
> avoided on this list.
>
> Looking for an answer from authoritative source, not a
> subscriber of doubtful quality.
>
> Appears to me wide variety of topics are discussed.
>
> Though the list is unmoderated, I suspect the dudes in
> charge of the list might take action against flooding with
> gross nonsense or commercial spam.
>
> Just trying to avoid being banned from unmoderated list ;),
> the way the heavily censored (in theory small moderated)
> Fyodor's full disclosure blocked me at SMTP level.
>
> Best of luck,
> --
> georgi
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 13:45:29 +0100
> From: stef <s@ctrlc.hu>
> To: Cathal Garvey <cathalgarvey@cathalgarvey.me>
> Cc: cypherpunks@cpunks.org
> Subject: Re: Re: Please stop top posting [was: TrueCrupt...]
> Message-ID: <20150107124529.GB7530@ctrlc.hu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> On Wed, Jan 07, 2015 at 10:21:42AM +0000, Cathal Garvey wrote:
> > > You know the history and reasons the internet has against top
> > > posting, especially on newgroups and mailing lists.
> >
> > I know the reasons but they don't apply to me, nor to a growing majority
> of
>
> how embarrasing, how ignorant. gtfo pls.
>
> --
> otr fp: https://www.ctrlc.hu/~stef/otr.txt
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 14:47:14 +0200
> From: Georgi Guninski <guninski@guninski.com>
> To: grarpamp <grarpamp@gmail.com>
> Cc: "cypherpunks@cpunks.org" <cypherpunks@cpunks.org>
> Subject: Re: Rant on BSD vs GPL was [Good ol' BSD vs. GPL]
> Message-ID: <20150107124714.GD2512@sivokote.iziade.m$>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> On Wed, Jan 07, 2015 at 07:00:24AM -0500, grarpamp wrote:
> > On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 6:25 AM, Georgi Guninski <guninski@guninski.com>
> wrote:
> > > Building just the kernel with clang is likely possibly, but
> > > bare kernel is not a distro.
> > >
> > > Till recently, I believe one couldn't build desktop
> > > environment only with clang, might be wrong on this.
> >
> > As in the links, the entire FreeBSD kernel, base,
> > and most of it's ~25,000 ports build with clang. X,
> > browsers, whatever. The others are not as far along.
> > Not bad considering clang itself is a "till recently".
>
> Thanks, probably i should stop trolling bsd for gcc so far,
> except for historical reasons that RMS & co gave them the
> toolchain to get started and be alive.
>
> I suppose _some_ of the ~25,000 ports _don't build_ with clang,
> giving me a short opportunity of trolling -- you still need
> gcc for _all_ ports?
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 15:25:25 +0200
> From: Georgi Guninski <guninski@guninski.com>
> To: Lodewijk andré de la porte <l@odewijk.nl>
> Cc: "cypherpunks@cpunks.org" <cypherpunks@cpunks.org>
> Subject: Re: Rant on BSD vs GPL was [Good ol' BSD vs. GPL]
> Message-ID: <20150107132525.GE2512@sivokote.iziade.m$>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> On Tue, Jan 06, 2015 at 02:45:16PM -0600, Lodewijk andré de la porte wrote:
> > 2015-01-06 18:51 GMT+01:00 Georgi Guninski <guninski@guninski.com>:
> >
> > > Haskell language shit depending on GCC and claiming they "compile with
> > > portable
> > > assembler" don't make sense to me too, fuck Haskelli and its monads,
> > > sorry.
> > >
> >
> > Not really sure how this factors into it. There's more than one Haskell
> > compiler, you know? Haskell and monads are languages, and do not depend
>
>
> I suppose I trolled about GHC:  https://www.haskell.org/ghc/license
>
> Since I am in a trolling mood, let me give you the following
> benchmark to check your favorite language for speed:
>
> The fibonacci numbers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibonacci_number
> are defined by the linear recurrence:
> F(0)=0,F(1)=1,F(n)=F(n-1)+F(n-2) [1].
>
> Using numerology, you can compute F(n) in O(log(n)).
>
> Compute F(n) via the slow recurrence [1].
>
> Question: In haskell (or in your favourite language), how
> long does it take to compute F(2^32) modulo 2^32?
>
> Modulo 2^32 means working with C int's.
>
> The haskell fanatic called this "micro-benchmark".
> If you work in excel, you don't care if the popup shows in
> 0.1 or in 0.9 seconds.
> If you work with loops to 2^34, you might care if you use C
> or haskell IMHO.
>
> Best,
> --
> Georgi
>
>
> > upon compilation to have meaning. Monads are like, kinda inevitable. You
> > have them in your code, you just don't know.
> >
> > As for the rest, GPL when something is everyone's property, BSD when
> you're
> > actually just a company pushing a product or just don't care. There's not
> > much between GPL and BSD. I'd like a structure where you have to pay to
> get
> > in, but once you're in it's like GPL (but only with others who are "in"),
> > instead of every closed source license out there.
> >
> > Meanwhile we must not depend upon the bullshit copyright system to
> provide
> > us with compensation. Distribution is no longer a challenge and no profit
> > can be extracted from it anymore. Stop it already. Please stop ruining
> > reality to create artificial scarcity, I want it not.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 10:32:08 -0500
> From: grarpamp <grarpamp@gmail.com>
> To: cypherpunks@cpunks.org
> Subject: Re: Please stop top posting [was: TrueCrupt...]
> Message-ID:
>         <CAD2Ti2939Q7WUqyZ+BAZ4eR1Ti31XZLOPo7K3=
> 3r12iFWu9GRA@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 5:21 AM, Cathal Garvey
> <cathalgarvey@cathalgarvey.me> wrote:
> > Despite this, I *do* use text-only mode
>
> That's wise and perhaps even generous of you, thanks.
>
> > scrolling [...] irksome
>
> Someday they'll get tired of costly context "huh's", reading
> backwards, and wasted mail space... and realize scrolling with
> trim and interleave is a naturally elegant pairing.
>
> > pre-configured
>
> They might even get so irked as to raise a finger to configure that.
>
> > cultural
>
> I hear configuring a lamp and turning pages in books is irksome
> these days too, what with swiping on backlit screens being so
> superior. Sad this culture.
>
> > I know the reasons
> > [...]
> > ..did you really call top-posting "abuse of other people"?
>
> Yes, and I called them lazy too. My post stands.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> End of cypherpunks Digest, Vol 19, Issue 9
> ******************************************
>
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