Geoff Stone, Obama's Review Group

Thu Apr 3 14:22:21 PDT 2014

Actually, Cari, I've done a pretty extensive foray into Anarchism.
It's an interesting but, IMHO, completely unworkable system populated
by people who dream of a better, freer world, but have no chance of
actually creating it - not now at least.

What turned me off about Anarchism were people like you. People who
waved their moral superiority flag every chance they got and assumed
that anyone who supported a different view than theirs was ignorant or
didn't understand what Anarchy is. In a lot of cases, Anarchists are
their own worst enemy.

> A capitalist sees everything as a product that will either further
> his desire for success or hinder it. An idealist sees everything as
> a mission fitting within their narrow agenda. A capitalist has much
> more incentive to provide a good product (correct, accurate,
> information) than an idealist who's sole goal is to further an
> agenda. Both have their uses though and both can be manipulated to
> good and bad ends.
> 
> 
>> an anarchist DOES NOT generally have one goal - capitalists think
>> that way anarchists are node based thinkers capitalist are
>> monolithic thinkers and often frame things in a dualistic or
>> black and white manner which is very christian religion in form
>> and thought pattern

Well, Cari, from what I've seen from the Anarchist community, the main
goal that anarchist have is to abolish the state. This, of course, is
a means to an end (the end being personal freedom) but the goal seems
to be nearly single-minded focus on abolishing the state.

And yes, I know some anarchists will say 'some of us simply ignore the
state' and that's true. But, in reality, the main 'collective' goal
(and I use that term loosely) is to abolish the state. To confirm
this, just talk to any anarchist and ask them what the biggest problem
to humanity is. Most will stay 'the state'. How do you solve it? 'Work
to abolish the state'. Seems pretty single minded to me.

But, please, instead of ranting and wild arm-waving, educate me if I
am wrong. I would certainly /love/ to see a workable, large scale,
anarchistic plan. I admit I probably don't know as much about the
philosophy as you do. But, instead of just angrily cursing, why not
try to educate me? I know that's a bit harder than angry arm-waving
and cursing but it's probably more productive.

>> capitalism is an economic model that has severe ramifications
>> for society it is no different than having a monarch really there
>> is a degree of difference regarding poverty but ... i heard today
>> that if you are dying of cancer in uganda you have a 10% chance
>> of having access to morphine ... they give cancer patients
>> paracetamol ... thats your great capitalism i find it disgusting
>> 
Actually, that /isn't/ capitalism. Why do you think what you read is
the case?  Maybe it's because of deals cut between governments and
corporations? Do you know what we call that intertwining? No, we don't
call it capitalism. We call is /fascism/.

>> the careerist journalists laura poitras et al are capitalistic
>> in every way - exploitive
> 
> I disagree. The careerist journalists are "crony capitalists" in
> every way.
> 
>> listen i am an activist journalist making money / becoming famous
>> like them off of journalism in the way they do it  is not ok with
>> me its not how i would ever in a million years do my work

And /that/ is one of the great things about capitalism: you can try
different things. You don't have to be confined to one narrow model.
You don't agree with it? Great! Go do something your way and nobody is
likely to stop you (except the predatory crony capitalists, but I
think we've established those aren't real capitalists, right?)

> They know that, regardless of the accuracy of their information, 
> the 'other side of the coin' will smooth things over and keep the 
> public hooked on an inferior product. That's not a true
> capitalist.
> 
> 
>> i think your an idealist actually 'true capitalism' thats a
>> theory

Perhaps I am. Just like a Utopian anarchistic society is a theory
that's never been proven. It's a different way of thinking, each with
positives and negatives. I think we're probably /both/ idealists in
our own ways.

> That's one of my main arguments with socialists and other 
> non-capitalist believers:
> 
> 
>> BELIEVERS????????? LMAO
> 
>> i dont believe in belief that is religious

You don't believe in the power of your anarchistic philosophy? Hmm,
perhaps that's the problem then! I assume, being a journalist, you
understand that words have multiple meanings and we use them withing
'contexts'. Using the word 'believe' in the context I did doesn't have
religious connotations at all. But I bet you know that. It looks like
you are upset and just lashing out at everything because we don't
agree. That's alright. I've seen your posts here and know you're more
intelligent than that. So, yes, you're a 'believer' or...at
least...you should be.

> they point to our current system and say 'see, it's exploitive and
> hurts people!' and it does. But that's not a true capitalist
> system. Will we ever actually have one? Doubtful. But what we have
> now is definitely not a good example.
> 
> 
>> i dont think you understand that capitalism is well beyond an
>> economy - watch naomi klein

Oh I understand it very well. I suspect it's you, who's obviously
stuck within a very narrow worldview, who may not understand it. I've
read Ms. Klein and I like a lot of her work - I don't agree with all
of it, but I like it. But you know as well as I do that she comes at
the topic with a bias. Also, from what I've read, her main beef seems
to be with globalization and the influence corporations have on
governments and, thus, the people. Remember, we've already covered
this: it's not capitalism but /fascism/ when you have that.

Do you have any thing in particular by Ms. Klein you'd like me to read
that may help 'educate' me? I'd be happy to give it a go. So far, I've
only read "No Logo", "The Take", and "The Shock Doctrine". Anything
else I should pick up?

>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka3Pb_StJn4

Yep, saw this video series. Brilliant woman, great book. Still talking
largely about fascism and not capitalism. I mean, sure, she uses the
/word/ 'capitalism' but that's not what she's describing. She's
talking fascism.

>> with capitalism the iraq invasion happened within its frame
> 
>> black sites torture sites around the globe where conducted within
>> the frame of capitalism > gitmo 'lives' inside the frame of
>> capitalism

So, do you believe that the horrible things that happened in Iraq and
GITMO wouldn't have happened if the corporations weren't involved? I
agree that they probably wouldn't have happened on such a /massive/
scale simply because their would have been a manpower shortage but I
suspect some of those 'true blue' soldiers wouldn't have had much of a
problem picking up a chemical light and sticking it up someone's
ass...or raping them.  Were the naked pictures of prisoners at Abu
Ghraib capitalism at work too? Oh, wait, those were soldiers, not
businessment trying to make money.

>> i dont think you understand anarchy or anarchistic thought
>> processies at all

I certainly admit that I don't understand it as much as /you/ do or
many others who spend a good amount of their time researching and
reading anarchistic thought. But I do have a good understanding of it.
However, feel free to point me in the direction of some good
educational material. I'll read it happily! I like exploring different
thoughts. I actually /like/ the idea of anarchy, just like I like much
of the ideas of socialism. But they both, IMHO, fall a bit off the
mark. That might be an educational thing that can be fixed though so
feel free to point me in the right direction. No sarcasm intended
here, I am open to learning!

Cypher

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