No subject

Lee James sneakattack63 at
Tue Dec 10 11:45:29 PST 2019

irtheory-owner at
Delivered-To: mailing list irtheory at
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 15:37:20 +0100
Subject: RE: [irtheory] War ain't beanbag. Irony is conserved.
Reply-To: irtheory at

I'd like to hear how children who werent old enough to pronounce the colour
were 'reds' who were rightly tortured (apparently) in your view, as well as
the many women raped and tortured at the hands of SOA graduates.

I'd also be keen to see evidence of this free-market success of which you
talk, because it isn't in central america for the countless millions in
poverty. Before, a person encourages free-markets elsewhere, how about
encouraging them in the United States in order to really test the theory
and give these nations a chance of economic development. The three most
successful industries in the united states (steel, agriculture and
techonology/military) are all state funded and protected in a exceedinly
'socialist' manner. There is no evidence in Europe of development occuring
in industry any other way either.

The defence of America and by proxy Reagan's crime in Central America is
alarmingly close to Hitler's defence of his Genocide and also Stalin's
killing of counter-revolutionarys (if we hadnt done it they wou;d have
killed more, theyre the threat not us etc).

Exactly at which point does a war (any war) stop being defensive because
according to the history books the US has never fought an aggressive war.
I'm not sure that it is defensive to defend a country against its own
people, when europe did so it was called colonisation.

>From: "R. A. Hettinga" <rah at>
>Reply-To: irtheory at
>To: irtheory at, cypherpunks at
>Subject: [irtheory] War ain't beanbag. Irony is conserved.
>Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 09:52:21 -0400
>Hash: SHA1
>At 6:11 AM +0000 6/13/04, Carmi Turchick wrote:
> >Here is more about the connection between the death squads and the
> >policy of genocide and our own American facility, the School of the
> >Americas...
>Yawn. War, to paraphrase a famous American income-redistributionist,
>ain't beanbag.
>Yes. We taught soldiers, hell, thugs, even, to kill commies. It was a
>war. Remember?
>The commies were killing people too, remember? More to the point,
>they wanted to kill lots more. Deliberately, or worse, through their
>own ignorant mismanagement of the lives they would eventually have
>total control of.
>All those "innocent" people were either totalitarians or dupes.
>Lenin's "useful idiots". Even the nuns. Even the bishops. Even the
>nice Anglo church ladies from El Norte who thought that in a war
>between Ghandi and, say, Stalin, Ghandi would win. Bambi vs. Godzilla
>is more like it. Of course, like Lenin himself, ultimately, those
>"idiots" were like Ghandi joining the war on Stalin's side.
>[Okay, so, in actuality, Ghandi *was* on Stalin's side, economically
>and ideologically, at least, the world's most beatified useful idiot
>in that regard. Certainly Nehru was on Stalin's team, explicitly so,
>creating the world's second largest command economy after China's,
>dooming tens of millions of his countrymen to famine, and most of the
>rest to destitution -- for *decades* -- in the process, because food
>prices were *calculated* by a committee somewhere instead of
>discovered in a market like they're supposed to be, and because
>cheaper, superior, foreign goods and services were legislated out of
>Indian markets entirely. Except for the elite, of course...]
>"Liberation" theology, remember that? ["Liberation" being yet another
>communard verbal expropriation, like what they did to the word
>"liberal". War is peace. Or, in the case of "liberation", and
>"liberal", freedom is literally tyranny.]
>Remember Aristide's little ditty in praise of the "necklace"?
>Remember Ortega and the people whose property he expropriated, who he
>jailed, and those small-businessman "counter-revolutionaries" he
>eventually killed? He would have killed more if we'd let him. If
>Reagan had let him.
>Don't think the "innocent" Allende would have been any different,
>he'd already started the process of expropriation and confiscation of
>people's livelihoods, and eventually, their lives, when, yes,
>Pinochet took him out. Life is hard. War sucks. People die.
>And of course, there's the Sendero Luminoso, the "Shining" Path. Real
>Oh. That's right. Butchers like the Sendero's Guzman, like Ortega,
>or, these days, Chavez and Castro, are *heroes* to people like you.
>"Freedom fighters," or some such emetic nonsense. I'm a functional
>atheist (okay, a Unitarian; there's some pyroclastic irony for
>you...), but one of the best things the Pope did -- after helping
>first Thatcher and then Reagan *free* three-quarters of Eurasia, if
>you now count India, and start what is an irreversible process in
>China -- was to kill "liberation" theology in its metaphoric crib,
>before it literally killed tens of millions of people, much more than
>centuries of ignorance and cryptofeudal tyranny hadn't done already
>in South America. (See, speaking of Guzman and Sendero, the works of
>Hernando de Soto for more on that...)
>A nation-state, if you remember your first political "science" class,
>is about force and geographic monopolies thereof. Politics is about
>who controls and spends the economic rents that a force-monopoly
>violently expropriates from its citizenry, and about buying
>non-violent acquiescence in that expropriation through "social"
>programs and other forms of fraud, thus lowering the transaction cost
>of what would have been a more violent act of theft.
>As Mancur Olsen said in "Power and Prosperity", a prince is a bandit
>who doesn't move.
>Absent any *physical* brakes on his power -- be they economic or
>violent -- whoever is in charge of a nation state, and whatever elite
>he needs to keep himself in power, can do whatever they damn well
>please. It is only an armed (first) and educated (second), and thus
>*free* population that prevents them from turning into tyrants.
>Stalin, the subject of "Power and Prosperity" -- and ultimate model
>for erst-and-proto-tinpots from Santiago to Managua to Havana to
>Caracas, from New Delhi to Baghdad, from Phnom Penh to Pyongyang --
>being the canonical example.
>Your heroes, from the "liberation" theology Church Ladies to Castro,
>were about selling oppression to the masses.
>My heroes, certainly the people who ran, and, yes, those who
>graduated from, the School of the Americas, thugs and all, were,
>ultimately, on the side of good and right. And ultimately, by the
>count of democracy versus tyranny in this half of the world -- more
>important, by the count of free versus confiscatory
>crypto-and-neo-feudal markets -- it looks like they won, so they were
>on the right side of history as well.
>War ain't beanbag. Until we solve the problem of force-monopoly with
>free markets someday, war, and monopolistic violence, is,
>paradoxically, how we protect free markets, and, through them,
>freedom itself.
>Irony, apparently, is abundant in the universe, and, like matter and
>energy, force and fraud, it is conserved as well.
>Version: PGP 8.0.3
>R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah at>
>The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <>
>44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
>"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
>[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
>experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

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--- end forwarded text

R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah at>
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <>
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

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