rayservers rayservers at gmail.com
Mon Dec 4 05:18:31 PST 2006

coderman wrote:
> On 11/29/06, rayservers <rayservers at gmail.com> wrote:
>> ...
>> Yes, and until the mixmaster nodes start to *charge* anonymous digital
>> gold tokens for routing, and lets nodes gets into competition with each
>> other to create a robotic free market, the Internet will be a baby eaten
>> alive by Mighty Big Brother and mixmaster will be overrun by the tragedy
>> of the commons...
> bootstrapping is hard, particularly when you must include a robust
> reputation metric.  "anonymous digital gold tokens" is really too
> narrow, as what you seek is exactly a robust reputation / trust metric
> tied to the economy of peer interaction.  digital cash is attractive
> because the reputation it embodies is fungible, but other forms of
> reputation are useful and may prove more effective in certain
> contexts, particularly when your adversary is well funded (think
> "creeping death attacks"). [0]

Amongst the things I think will work, is an open source Skype style VoIP
+ IM + click to pay system. Reputation can be added to this, but if you
are my buddy and I hear your voice, I will certainly be willing to click
you some money. Major commercial companies will not care for the
anonymity and can identify themselves to accept money.

>> Big Fat Hint: The above (pay for traffic nodes) will result in spam free
>> untraceable email, robotic economically viable self extending wireless
>> networks, Voip thats really secure and high quality, DDoS proof
>> Internet, private p2p markets for commodities, stocks etc... etc. Now,
>> if there are investors out there... speak up.
> oh, if it were so simple!  payment alone is not sufficient, this
> [dark|anonymous|private]net requires robust reputation and usability
> too.  payment is part of that equation, but other incentives to
> participate and contribute must be addressed.  remember mojonation /
> mnet? [1]

Usability? Think Skype.
>> The alternative Internet provided "for free" is the biggest boon to big
>> government, ever! (well, almost... after fiat money). "Capitalist"
>> $$investors are about to be eaten alive by fiat money that is not theirs
>> which they soon cannot move... The clampdown will be, heh, SWIFT (sic).
> heheh, it's going to be a fun ride.  this also points to the
> "incentive" for big government to crush with extreme prejudice any
> such crypto-anarcho-capitalist digital economies.  a robust and
> private economy of that sort would be popular, efficient, and a clear
> threat to fiat money control.  decentralized, robust reputation
> metrics capable of defending against such adversaries are difficult,
> to put it mildly.

Again, think Skype. Its the best thing out there in the wild that
demonstrates that crypto can be user friendly and invisible.

Unfortunately since its closed source, /I/ certainly won't trust it. And
I don't see why it has to be closed source, an open source equivalent
that provides quality service and charges for it, will work better and
spread faster (make money selling your bandwidth while your computer is
>> I spoke about this at HOPE6, I don't know if more than a couple of
>> people in the audience even got an inkling of what the hell I was
>> talking about. If they did, and are busy producing code, more power to
>> them.
> i wish i could have been there; sounds like an interesting talk.
> there is a lot more i'd like to discuss regarding digital bearer
> settlement, blinded digital cash, reputation metrics, and incentives
> for privacy preserving networks and services, but i'll have to save
> that for later, as the incentive of continued employment has overcome
> the incentive for enjoyable and enlightening conversation... ;)

I think that the time is now finally getting ripe for selling secure
computers into the market. There was zero interest for many years and
Linux was not usable... Ubuntu Linux (including Mozilla FF and
Openoffice.org) has changed this quite a bit.

> 0. "Reliable MIX Cascade Networks through Reputation"
>  http://www.freehaven.net/doc/casc-rep/
> 1. "Mnet"
>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mnet

Mnet looks cool, although I never tried it.



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