The End of the Golden Age of Crypto
camera_lumina at hotmail.com
Thu Nov 14 18:04:38 PST 2002
"Indeed, I've heard the same. One could argue that for someone to believe in
something (religion) so intensely as to shun all moral explanation against
this hypothesis and to persist in those beliefs without any proof is akin to
Well, I'm sure this is not an issue that Cypherpunks is going to want to
spend a ton of time on, but let's be clear here. There's "belief", and then
there's "faith". With belief,the believer refuses to acknowledge and accpet
facts that disagree with their (narrow) worldview. I can't help but put the
"Creationists" in this category. (Even a cursory look at their "science"
makes it clear that there's TONS of information they ignored or explain away
with absurd notions.)
Faith is a different matter. With faith, the faithful see the "facts" (as
they are commonly understood) and still find a way to believe in something
unseen. Belief contradicts reason, faith operates in parallel. I would argue
that great scientists operated with a decent amount of the latter, and
Galileo is a good example. At the time, the geocentric theory was still able
to predict most celestial events better than a heliocentric one. But Galileo
had a deeper intuitive sense that something was "wrong" with that geocentric
theory, and its clumsy and mind-boggling complexity.
Likewise, every now and then one encounters religious people who recognize
the "unreasonabilty" of what they believe. (Indeed, it's not easy to believe
in a God that allows, for instance, the Holocaust to occur). I find these
people very different from the "believer" category, and would place folks
like Michelangelo, Kepler, Newton, Maxwell, Kierkegaard, Galileo, St John of
the Cross (a Spanish mystic tortured by the inquisition) and many others in
As for being akin to Schizophrenia, I'd point out that Schizophrenia is not
a "mental" disorder per se, but a genetically triggered even that causes a
measurable, physical degradation in the brain (a Schizophrenic's brain can
be identified in autopsies).
>From: Sam Ritchie <kayakwcc at comcast.net>
>To: Andri Isidoro Fernandes Esteves <Aife at netvisao.pt>, Mike Rosing
><eresrch at eskimo.com>
>CC: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks at lne.com>
>Subject: Re: The End of the Golden Age of Crypto
>Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 19:41:40 -0500
> > From: Andri Isidoro Fernandes Esteves <Aife at netvisao.pt>
> > Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 14:31:41 +0000
> > To: Mike Rosing <eresrch at eskimo.com>
> > Cc: cypherpunks at lne.com
> > Subject: Re: The End of the Golden Age of Crypto
> > On Thursday 14 November 2002 03:50, you wrote:
> >> On Wed, 13 Nov 2002, Sam Ritchie wrote:
> >>> That's the whole deal with the bible, and its various internal
> >>> contradictions. If anything can be proven true in the bible, then
> >>> no room for faith anymore, which nullifies religious "beliefs"; and if
> >>> anything can be proven false, then there's no god, and religion is
> >>> crushed under the heel of reason. Hurrah, Enlightenment!
> >>> ~SAM
> >> Don't bet on it. I was in a discussion group a week or so ago and one
> >> lady who is super devout (of some christian sect, I'm not really sure
> >> which one) claimed that she was always "testing her faith" every day.
> >> It really shook me up because I have faith in testing. Religion and
> >> reason are not in the same universe!
> >> My favorite response on the subject of god is "I have no need of that
> >> hypothisis". I forget who it's attributed to, but I think it was from
> >> late 1800's.
> >> Patience, persistence, truth,
> >> Dr. mike
> > The religious person is always battling against reality wich with a
> > of inteligence from the observer always bring doubts on the truth of his
> > faith.
> > It's a state of mind wich can only be compared with mental ilness...
> > (I've read that there are even some neurological similarities between
> > faithful and the mentaly ill)
>Indeed, I've heard the same. One could argue that for someone to believe in
>something (religion) so intensely as to shun all moral explanation against
>this hypothesis and to persist in those beliefs without any proof is akin
>schizophrenia. But that's a whole new kettle of fish.
> > The author of that statement: "I have no need of that hipotheses" was
> > Laplace, french mathematician on answering Napoleon's question in why is
> > on newtonian mechanics didn't call for god.
> > Andri Esteves
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