Orange crush

[cubic-dog]

On Mon, 7 Jan 2002, Anonymous wrote:

>   Total bullshit there crock dog. TCDD is also a breakdown product 
> of both poly-chlorinated phenols like 2,4,D and 2,4,5-T and poly-chlorinated
> bi-phenols (PCBs). It really doesn't matter what level tcdd (dioxin) is at 
> time of manufacture, even boiling coffee watere with 245T in it can give
> you a load of dioxin. 

Dunno, maybe you're right, I couldn't get it to happen in the lab
with phenols when I was a chem student without actually burning it. I
tried. (wasn't supposed to but I was curious). Biphenols, yes. Or
something close enough to TCDD that I didn't care. Actually burning
245T, and 24D for that matter will indeed produce TCDD. As to whether
or not overcooking these phenols produces it, well, I wouldn't 
doubt it. But overcooking would still be a faulty process. 

BTW, burning just about ANYTHING with chlorine in it will produce
dioxin.

I don't know there brother nobody, I just keep reading over and over
again, folks using 245T, 24D and TCDD practically interchangably. 
They are not the same chemicals, not at all. I read things like
"245T, a form of dioxin" and "Agent Orange, a strong dioxin".
You say TCDD is a breakdown product of 245T, others say it is a
manufacturing byproduct, others say it is the same thing.

>    The agit/prop that we *need* herbicides to produce enough food is
> patently absurd. They didn't even exiest 50 years ago, and most farmers
> in the world still don't use them. 

Well, most farmers in the world still don't have nearly the output that
the "chemically dependant brainwashed, braindead amerikan farmer" does,
except perhaps those other hi output ag industries from Germany, the
netherlands and such. All of which are of course, heavily chem dependent. 

Herbicides have existed a hell of a lot longer than 50 years, even
so-called modern chlorinated herbicides have been around since the 
late 1800s. 

>Only the chemically dependant 
> brainwashed, braindead amerikan farmer does, which is why he's quickly
> becoming extinct.  

The reasons the "chemically dependant brainwashed, braindead amerikan 
farmer" is becomming exinct has a lot more to do with international 
corporate farming and economics of multinational monopolies like
Archer Daniels Midland, the darling of the NPR crowd, than it
does the use of herbicides, pesticides and fertilzers.   

Perhaps you are right on all cases, that agent orange
and all phenoxyl herbicides are the devils spawn and the 
true root of all evil. My imagination balks at it, perhaps because
I don't share your clarity of vision. However, I do know some
of the chemists at Dow Midland who were directly involved in
Dows work with 245T, and to follow your line of thinking is
to say that these folks are the fine agents of the great
satan himself, heirs to those nice folks who stirred the pot
so vigorously in europe back in the 40s.

My imagination balks at it, perhaps because these
folks simply are not like that, and I have read a lot of
the papers, I have done some of the chemistry and have learned
in an empirical way that these questions are all 
a great deal more complicated than these flat statements
like "Agent Orange is the blame for all the ''bad
things''" suggest. 

This is all real touchy stuff, I have been around
pretty much half a century and have been litterally
up to my neck in this stuff. (Yes, this *STUFF*). 
I don't take it lightly, and I don't buy into any
corporate line, as a corporation is almost by
definition incapable of telling any truth when there is
any bad news. But little snippits that say ag/chem
is evil, and we are good because we say it is evil
are pretty much a waste of everyones time.