From shamrock at cypherpunks.to Thu Aug 1 01:11:27 2002 From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 01:11:27 -0700 Subject: White House Sounds Call For New Internet Standards In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020731123856.04f5f9d0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <000201c23933$09198d20$6801a8c0@xpserver> Steve wrote: > The Bush administration's cyber security czar, Richard > Clarke, said it might be time to replace the "creaky, cranky" > 20-year-old protocols that drive the Internet with standards > better able to accommodate a flood of new wireless devices. > Wireless devices, it is feared, may introduce large security > holes to the network. The White House is working with the > private sector to draft a national plan to secure the > country's most vital computer networks from cyber attack. How about IPv6 with IPSEC? --Lucky From frissell at panix.com Thu Aug 1 03:39:14 2002 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 06:39:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: White House Sounds Call For New Internet Standards In-Reply-To: <000201c23933$09198d20$6801a8c0@xpserver> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Aug 2002, Lucky Green wrote: > > How about IPv6 with IPSEC? > > --Lucky > Isn't that a creaky, cranky 10-year-old protocol? DCF From pcwealth at yahoo.com Thu Aug 1 04:40:25 2002 From: pcwealth at yahoo.com (pcwealth at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 06:40:25 -0500 Subject: Is Your Financial Future Setup the Way it Should Be? Message-ID: <4119-22002841114025266@pas-tech-w2k-04> ************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************* "Thank you for posting your link on our free links page. Feel free to post your message as often as you like. 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PC Wealth Safelist http://pcwealth.int-ltd.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From eugen at leitl.org Thu Aug 1 02:19:12 2002 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 11:19:12 +0200 (CEST) Subject: White House Sounds Call For New Internet Standards In-Reply-To: <000201c23933$09198d20$6801a8c0@xpserver> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Aug 2002, Lucky Green wrote: > > Clarke, said it might be time to replace the "creaky, cranky" > > 20-year-old protocols that drive the Internet with standards > > better able to accommodate a flood of new wireless devices. > > Wireless devices, it is feared, may introduce large security > > holes to the network. The White House is working with the > > private sector to draft a national plan to secure the > > country's most vital computer networks from cyber attack. > > How about IPv6 with IPSEC? Wireless is the canonical case for geographic routing. Addresses as static or dynamic positions in space (either mutual time of flight or deriving refinable position from connection constraints), packet routing as the crow flies, local-knowledge routing tables that only know about a few km space around you, almost no admin traffic. Plus, routing logic thin enough to fit into deep embedded footprint, or be cast in hardware for relativistic speed cut-through. IPv6 can't handle most this, especially on the scale required. There's point in going IPv6, but at the same time one must be aware that this is just a patch, not a fix. From mv at cdc.gov Thu Aug 1 11:52:45 2002 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 11:52:45 -0700 Subject: Mandatory hardware Message-ID: <3D49837D.B73B86BC@cdc.gov> TV makers may face mandate on digital receivers Wed Jul 31, 9:17 AM ET In an effort to jump-start the languid rollout of digital TV, federal regulators next week are expected to require all new TV sets to include digital receivers by 2006, say people familiar with the matter. TV makers say the mandate would boost the price of a TV by about $200, dampening sales. Broadcasters, who have pushed for such a rule, dispute the figure. http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=711&ncid=738&e=8&u=/usatoday/20020731/tc_usatoday/4320647 Lets see... they think they can require crap in TVs, in teleco equiptment... anyone still doubt they will try a power grab on the motherboard? From lloyd at acm.jhu.edu Thu Aug 1 09:11:32 2002 From: lloyd at acm.jhu.edu (Jack Lloyd) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 12:11:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Hollywood Hackers In-Reply-To: <810d9c7d6500f30c04400cbc44465dda@melontraffickers.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Jul 2002, A.Melon wrote: > and on the left hand side of the page it says: > > At the moment, we do not support non-Javascript browsers. > > If they are concerned about security, Shouldn't they be avoiding > javascript? Shapiro has a strange love for Javascript. I don't know what that has to do with OpenCM either way, though... In any case, if you were running EROS you wouldn't have to worry about Javascript causing you problems. :P -Jack From schear at lvcm.com Thu Aug 1 12:29:58 2002 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 12:29:58 -0700 Subject: Mandatory hardware In-Reply-To: <3D49837D.B73B86BC@cdc.gov> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020801121900.04fcec38@pop3.lvcm.com> At 11:52 AM 8/1/2002 -0700, Major Variola (ret) wrote: >TV makers may face mandate on digital receivers >Wed Jul 31, 9:17 AM ET > >In an effort to jump-start the languid rollout of digital TV, federal >regulators >next week are expected to require all new TV sets to include digital >receivers by 2006, say people familiar with the matter. > >TV makers say the mandate would boost the price >of a TV by about $200, dampening sales. >Broadcasters, who have pushed for such a rule, >dispute the figure. > >http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=711&ncid=738&e=8&u=/usatoday/20020731/tc_usatoday/4320647 > >Lets see... they think they can require crap in TVs, in teleco >equiptment... anyone still doubt they will try a power >grab on the motherboard? I think a key difference here is that many, perhaps millions, of consumers are comfortable with assembling their own PCs from components and tweaking SW. How many consumers assemble their own TV sets? Volume black markets in underground motherboards and cracking SW may create a viable resistance. Also, the market for new wizbang PCs may be quickly drying up cutting off ======================================= Intel Bets Farm on Moore's Law By Tom Murphy -- Electronic News, 7/26/2002 Intel Corp. will supply 3GHz Pentium 4 processors in time for the holiday season, accelerating the company's previously announced timetable by nearly a quarter. Despite trends that show consumers increasingly hunting for value-priced systems with lower-performance processors, Intel is more determined than ever to stay on the Moore's Law growth curve of doubling process speeds every 18 to 24 months. \Even Gordon Moore, creator of the industry-defining Moore's Law, believes the trend line for adopting faster semiconductors is showing signs of flattening. In spite of that, Intel keeps tweaking the efficiencies of its manufacturing processes, churning out higher-speed machines and introducing eye-opening technology improvements such as HyperThreading and 300mm wafer manufacturing. But Intel's agenda may run deeper than rapid adoption of the new chips. A 3GHz machine would give Intel a substantial lead on rival Advanced Micro Devices Inc. (AMD). And with each new speed grade Intel introduces, it is able to increase the pressure on AMD by dropping the price on lower-performing parts. From mv at cdc.gov Thu Aug 1 12:46:28 2002 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 12:46:28 -0700 Subject: Freedom of association denied in Ventura Cty Message-ID: <3D499014.EADB14F5@cdc.gov> (Note that this *is* political as the Fairgrounds are State property) Dress Code Keeps 9 Hells Angels Out of Fair in Ventura Security: The new policy is enforced after biker club members refuse to remove vests marked with group's insignia. Their leader says he will sue. By TRACY WILSON and HOLLY J. WOLCOTT, TIMES STAFF WRITERS Nine Hells Angels were denied entry to the Ventura County Fair on Wednesday evening after refusing to remove black leather vests emblazoned with the trademark winged skull of their motorcycle club. Stopped at a side entrance, the bikers were told by a security guard their clothing violated a fair policy that bans gang attire. The guard told George Christie Jr., president of the Ventura Hells Angels chapter, and his associates that they would have to remove any clothing bearing the name of their group to enter the fairgrounds. "I want to exercise my rights as a United States citizen," Christie responded. Holding up two tickets, for himself and the 9 1/2-year-old daughter of his fiancee, Christie asked, "You will not accept these tickets?" Security guard Mike Priester then handed Christie a copy of the fair's dress code policy and again told him he could not come through the gate unless he removed the clothing bearing the Angels insignia. As he walked away from the fairgrounds, Christie called the policy unconstitutional and said he will file a lawsuit challenging it. "I take offense," he said. "We are not a street gang, we are a motorcycle club.... We are going to seek legal action." Ventura attorney Kay Duffy, who had walked with the Hells Angels and a few of their family members from the group's nearby clubhouse to the fairgrounds, said she had hoped fair organizers would back down from the policy and allow the Angels inside. "The next step is the court system," she said. Fair spokesman Devlin Raley said organizers had no choice but to turn Christie and the others away. The dress policy aims to create a safe atmosphere for families to enjoy the fair, said Raley, adding that it will be enforced during the 12-day fair that began Wednesday. "They chose not to comply with the dress code. It was a challenge of the policy and the policy was enforced," Raley said, adding that the conversation with the Angels at the gate was peaceful. Concerned about gang violence, the fair board recently approved a tighter policy on gang attire. The policy specifically prohibits anyone wearing clothing, visible tattoos or other articles bearing the name or insignia of a criminal street gang from entering the fairgrounds. It does not ban the wearing of specific colors or sports team logos unless clothing has been altered to symbolize a gang. "This doesn't prevent anyone from coming to the fair," Ventura Police Lt. Ken Corney said this week. "You just can't be wearing gang attire." The policy identifies 27 local groups as criminal street gangs--including the Hells Angels and rival Mongols motorcycle clubs. Christie and lawyers representing the Hells Angels contend there is no evidence the club meets the legal definition of a criminal street gang. But police say recent convictions stemming from a massive drug-and-racketeering case involving the Hells Angels prompted law enforcement officials to deem the organization a criminal street gang. Corney said revisions to the fair's decade-old dress code were prompted by a recent appellate court decision in which justices in Northern California found a similar dress code unconstitutional. The ruling stemmed from a lawsuit filed by a Hells Angels member who was denied entry to the Sonoma County Fair after refusing to remove a vest emblazoned with the club name. The appellate court found the dress code vague and overbroad. Unlike the Sonoma decision, Ventura lawyers and police say the new policy is specific and are confident it would withstand a legal challenge. From mmotyka at lsil.com Thu Aug 1 12:02:23 2002 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka) Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 13:02:23 -0600 Subject: Mandatory hardware Message-ID: <3D4985BF.5B8C2CA7@lsil.com> "Major Variola \(ret\)" wrote : > TV makers may face mandate on digital receivers > Wed Jul 31, 9:17 AM ET > > In an effort to jump-start the languid rollout of digital TV, federal > regulators > next week are expected to require all new TV sets to include digital > receivers by 2006, say people familiar with the matter. > > TV makers say the mandate would boost the price > of a TV by about $200, dampening sales. > Broadcasters, who have pushed for such a rule, > dispute the figure. > > http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=711&ncid=738&e=8&u=/usatoday/2002> 0731/tc_usatoday/4320647 > > Lets see... they think they can require crap in TVs, in teleco > equiptment... anyone still doubt they will try a power > grab on the motherboard? > I have no doubt that they will try to screw the motherboard ( they are, after all, motherfuckers ) but I suspect it will turn out to be more difficult than they think to completely eradicate noncompliant devices. That is unless the new protocols that the administration wants require hw id fields and authentication before packets can be carried. Now that I think about it it could easily be like getting service to a cell phone only more so. Interestingly, wireless equipment could be used to make networks that are not part of the controlled net. Then of course those can be outlawed. It looks pretty grim. From wy1teht9f56814 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 2 01:43:53 2002 From: wy1teht9f56814 at hotmail.com (Leslie) Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 13:43:53 -1900 Subject: Toners and inkjet cartridges for less.... CCIGECKET Message-ID: <0000058331f5$000033a4$00002eb3@mx06.hotmail.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1878 bytes Desc: not available URL: From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Thu Aug 1 05:53:02 2002 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 13:53:02 +0100 Subject: Pizza with a credit card References: <3D486A4C.EB85CBCF@lsil.com> Message-ID: <3D492F2E.95C68161@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Michael Motyka wrote: > Quite clearly cash has got to go! I'm not sure how tough this would be > to sneak past the slumbering electorate. Pretty tough I expect. But the > usage level is certainly going down while the percentage of electronic > transactions is skyrocketing. We've even had concresscritters suggesting > that the transport of $10K !interstate! should be illegal. You want to spend ten thou on pizza? Bloody hell, that's excessive. Any company selling you that much would lay themselves wide open to being sued because they got you addicted to fatty pizza and made you /obese/. They could be liable for millions! No respectable company could possibly allow that to happen. There should be a law against it! Our legislators must act to defend vulnerable corporations against predatory customers like you who spend too much money! Ken (who has to choose among the 10 or so local Pizza delivery companies in his part of London on the basis of which postcode database they use, because most of them think he lives in the wrong street) From mv at cdc.gov Thu Aug 1 14:23:48 2002 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 14:23:48 -0700 Subject: thoughtcrime, art, mandatory youth education camps, AP, kirkland Message-ID: <3D49A6E4.8448B923@cdc.gov> Court rules student's artwork not a threat to police Published 9:35 a.m. PDT Thursday, August 1, 2002 CHICO, Calif. (AP) - A Pleasant Valley High School student's art class painting that showed him shooting a police officer who had cited him for possessing marijuana did not constitute a criminal threat, a state appeals court has ruled. The youth, identified in court papers only as Ryan D., never showed his painting to Chico Police Sgt. Lori MacPhail, the state Court of Appeals in Sacramento said Tuesday. The court said that paintings are ambiguous as a statement of intent and that the artwork didn't amount to a threat. The painting showed the boy "shooting the officer in the back of the head, blowing away pieces of her flesh and face," the court noted. "Without question, it was intemperate and demonstrated extremely poor judgment," presiding Justice Arthur Scotland wrote in his opinion. He added that "it does not appear to be anything other than pictorial ranting." The appeals court dismissed a finding by Butte County Superior Court Judge Ann Rutherford that the teenager had made a terrorist threat against MacPhail but let the marijuana violation stand. MacPhail said Wednesday she was disappointed by the ruling. "It's unfortunate that that could be the interpretation," she said. "It was clear and straightforward to me it was more than just a painting." MacPhail cited the teenager on Dec. 8, 1999, for possessing marijuana while off the high school campus during school hours. A month later, Ryan D., then 15, turned in a painting for his art class that showed a boy shooting a female police officer in the head. The artwork also included the letters "CPD," for Chico Police Department, and "67," MacPhail's badge number. The art instructor found the painting "disturbing" and "scary" and showed it to school administrators, who then showed it to MacPhail. The appeals court said there was no evidence the teenager ever intended to show the officer his artwork, Scotland noted. http://www.sacbee.com/state_wire/story/3804909p-4830234c.html From jamesd at echeque.com Thu Aug 1 14:33:43 2002 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 14:33:43 -0700 Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3D4946C7.7343.1660D69@localhost> -- On 31 Jul 2002 at 23:45, AARG! Anonymous wrote: > So TCPA and Palladium "could" restrict which software you could > run. They aren't designed to do so, but the design could be > changed and restrictions added. Their design, and the institutions and software to be designed around them, is disturbingly similar to what would be needed to restrict what software we could run. TCPA institutions and infrastructure are much the same as SSSCA institutions and infrastructure. According to Microsoft, the end user can turn the palladium hardware off, and the computer will still boot. As long as that is true, it is an end user option and no one can object. But this is not what the content providers want. They want that if you disable the Fritz chip, the computer does not boot. What they want is that it shall be illegal to sell a computer capable of booting if the Fritz chip is disabled. If I have to give superroot powers to Joe in order to run Joe's software or play Joe's content, fair enough. But the hardware and institutions to implement this are disturbingly similar to the hardware and institutions needed to implement the rule that I have to give superroot powers to Joe in order to play Peter's software or content.. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG FQhKMpDHys7gyFWenHCK9p7+Xfh1DwpaqGKcztxk 20jFdJDiigV/b1fmHBudici59omqc/Ze0zXBVvQLk --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From ericm at lne.com Thu Aug 1 14:45:52 2002 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 14:45:52 -0700 Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA In-Reply-To: ; from remailer@aarg.net on Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 11:45:35PM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20020801144552.A14125@slack.lne.com> On Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 11:45:35PM -0700, AARG! Anonymous wrote: > Peter Trei writes: > > AARG!, our anonymous Pangloss, is strictly correct - Wagner should have > > said "could" rather than "would". > > So TCPA and Palladium "could" restrict which software you could run. TCPA (when it isn't turned off) WILL restrict the software that you can run. Software that has an invalid or missing signature won't be able to access "sensitive data"[1]. Meaning that unapproved software won't work. Ok, technically it will run but can't access the data, but that it a very fine hair to split, and depending on the nature of the data that it can't access, it may not be able to run in truth. If TCPA allows all software to run, it defeats its purpose. Therefore Wagner's statement is logically correct. Yes, the spec says that it can be turned off. At that point you can run anything that doesn't need any of the protected data or other TCPA services. But, why would a software vendor that wants the protection that TCPA provides allow his software to run without TCPA as well, abandoning those protections? I doubt many would do so, the majority of TCPA-enabled software will be TCPA-only. Perhaps not at first, but eventually when there are enough TCPA machines out there. More likely, spiffy new content and features will be enabled if one has TCPA and is properly authenticated, disabled otherwise. But as we have seen time after time, today's spiffy new content is tomorrows virtual standard. This will require the majority of people to run with TCPA turned on if they want the content. TCPA doesn't need to be required by law, the market will require it. At some point, running without TCPA will be as difficult as avoiding MS software in an otherwise all-MS office.... theoretically possible, but difficult in practice. "TCPA could be required" by the government or MS or is, I agree, a red herring. It is not outside the realm of possibility, in fact I'd bet that someone at MS has seriously thought through the implications. But to my mind the "requirement by defacto standard" scenerio I outline above is much more likely, in fact it is certain to happen if TCPA gets in more than say 50% of computers. I worked for a short while on a very early version of TCPA with Geoff Strongin from AMD. We were both concerned that TCPA not be able to be used to restrict user's freedom, and at the time I thought that "you can always turn it off" was good enough. Now I'm not so sure. If someday all the stuff that you do with your computer touches data that can only be operated on by TCPA-enabled software, what are you going to do? BTW, what's your credentials? You seem familiar with the TCPA spec, which is no mean feat considering that it seems to have been written to make it as difficult to understand as possible (or perhaps someone hired an out-of-work ISO standards writer). I think that Peter's guess is spot on. Of course having you participate as a nym is much preferable to not having you participate at all, so don't feel as though you have to out yourself or stop posting. [1] TCPAmain_20v1_1a.pdf, section 2.2 Eric --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From ericm at lne.com Thu Aug 1 15:06:38 2002 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 15:06:38 -0700 Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA In-Reply-To: <3D4946C7.7343.1660D69@localhost>; from jamesd@echeque.com on Thu, Aug 01, 2002 at 02:33:43PM -0700 References: <3D4946C7.7343.1660D69@localhost> Message-ID: <20020801150638.A14543@slack.lne.com> On Thu, Aug 01, 2002 at 02:33:43PM -0700, James A. Donald wrote: > According to Microsoft, the end user can turn the palladium > hardware off, and the computer will still boot. As long as that > is true, it is an end user option and no one can object. > > But this is not what the content providers want. They want that > if you disable the Fritz chip, the computer does not boot. What > they want is that it shall be illegal to sell a computer capable > of booting if the Fritz chip is disabled. Nope. They care that the Fritz chip is enabled whenever their content is played. There's no need to make it a legal requirement if the market makes it a practical requirement. The Linux folks just won't be able to watch the latest Maria Lopez or Jennifer Carey DVDs. But who cares about a few geeks? Only weirdos install alternative OSs anyhow, they can be ignored. Most of them will probably have second systems with the Fritz chip enabled anyhow. Eric From matchnews at foryou.match.com Thu Aug 1 13:12:50 2002 From: matchnews at foryou.match.com (Matchnews@match.com) Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 15:12:50 -0500 Subject: 15 ways to start your first email Message-ID: <20020801200437.E1FE6797E1D4@dal53005.match.com> Does your first impression thrill or kill? Add some kick to your conversation by... more http://www.match.com/matchscene/article.asp?bannerid=512555&articleid=38 Member Spotlight Meet our featured members: TDHandsome http://www.match.com/spotlight/showprofile.asp?UserID=4744434D4B474E&Bannerid=512583 SRW27 http://www.match.com/spotlight/showprofile.asp?UserID=42454B44464C494D&Bannerid=512584 3 lessons for dirty dates One guy stabs his poultry; another laps libations like Lassie. Would your date's table manners make Miss Manners swoon? http://www.match.com/matchscene/article.asp?bannerid=512561&articleid=168 matchTravel.com: Get carried away http://www.matchtravel.com You have received this email because you selected to receive Match.com updates and information when you registered. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.match.com/myinfo/emailoptions.asp log in, and un-check "Newsletter." Copyright 1993-2002 Match.com, Inc. Match.com and the radiant heart are registered trademarks of Match.com, Inc. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 23168 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Thu Aug 1 13:14:06 2002 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 16:14:06 -0400 Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA Message-ID: I'm going to respond to AARGH!, our new Sternlight, by asking two questions. 1. Why can't I control what signing keys the Fritz chip trusts? If the point of TCPA is make it so *I* can trust that *my* computer to run the software *I* have approved, and refuse to run something which a virus or Trojan has modifed (and this, btw, is the stated intention of TCPA), then why the hell don't I have full control over the keys? If I did, the thing might actually work to my benefit. The beneficiary of TCPA when I don't have ultimate root control is not I. It is someone else. That is not an acceptable situation. 2. It's really curious that Mr. AARGH! has shown up simultaneously on the lists and on sci.crypt, with the single brief of supporting TCPA. While I totally support his or her right to post anonymously, I can only speculate that anonymity is being used to disguise some vested interest in supporting TCPA. In other words, I infer that Mr. AARGH! is a TCPA insider, who is embarassed to reveal himself in public. So my question is: What is your reason for shielding your identity? You do so at the cost of people assuming the worst about your motives. Peter Trei PS: Speculating about the most tyrannical uses to which a technology can be put has generally proved a winning proposition. --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From remailer at aarg.net Thu Aug 1 16:15:18 2002 From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 16:15:18 -0700 Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA Message-ID: <15848a6fde52312200b0ab232c1ff953@aarg.net> Peter Trei writes: > I'm going to respond to AARGH!, our new Sternlight, by asking two questions. > > 1. Why can't I control what signing keys the Fritz chip trusts? > > If the point of TCPA is make it so *I* can trust that *my* computer > to run the software *I* have approved, and refuse to run something > which a virus or Trojan has modifed (and this, btw, is the stated > intention of TCPA), then why the hell don't I have full control over > the keys? If I did, the thing might actually work to my benefit. > > The beneficiary of TCPA when I don't have ultimate root control is > not I. It is someone else. That is not an acceptable situation. You might be surprised to learn that under the TCPA, it is not necessary for the TPM (the so-called "Fritz" chip) to trust *any* signing keys! The TCPA basically provides two kinds of functionality: first, it can attest to the software which was booted and loaded. It does this by taking hashes of the software before transferring control to it, and storing those hashes in its internal secure registers. At a later time it can output those hashes, signed by its internal signature key (generated on-chip, with the private key never leaving the chip). The system also holds a cert issued on this internal key (which is called the Endorsement key), and this cert is issued by the TPM manufacturer (also called the TPME). But this functionality does not require storing the TPME key, just the cert it issued. Second, the TCPA provides for secure storage via a "sealing" function. The way this works, a key is generated and used to encrypt a data blob. Buried in the blob can be a hash of the software which was running at the time of the encryption (the same data which can be reported via the attestation function). Then, when the data is decrypted and "unsealed", the hash is compared to that which is in the TPM registers now. This can make it so that data which is encrypted when software system X boots can only be decrypted when that same software boots. Again, this functionality does not require trusting anyone's keys. Now, there is an optional function which does use the manufacturer's key, but it is intended only to be used rarely. That is for when you need to transfer your sealed data from one machine to another (either because you have bought a new machine, or because your old one crashed). In this case you go through a complicated procedure that includes encrypting some data to the TPME key (the TPM manufacturer's key) and sending it to the manufacturer, who massages the data such that it can be loaded into the new machine's TPM chip. So this function does require pre-loading a manufacturer key into the TPM, but first, it is optional, and second, it frankly appears to be so cumbersome that it is questionable whether manufacturers will want to get involved with it. OTOH it is apparently the only way to recover if your system crashes. This may indicate that TCPA is not feasible, because there is too much risk of losing locked data on a machine crash, and the recovery procedure is too cumbersome. That would be a valid basis on which to criticize TCPA, but it doesn't change the fact that many of the other claims which have been made about it are not correct. In answer to your question, then, for most purposes, there is no signing key that your TPM chip trusts, so the issue is moot. I suggest that you go ask the people who misled you about TCPA what their ulterior motives were, since you seem predisposed to ask such questions. > 2. It's really curious that Mr. AARGH! has shown up simultaneously > on the lists and on sci.crypt, with the single brief of supporting TCPA. > > While I totally support his or her right to post anonymously, I can only > speculate that anonymity is being used to disguise some vested > interest in supporting TCPA. In other words, I infer that Mr. AARGH! > is a TCPA insider, who is embarassed to reveal himself in public. > > So my question is: What is your reason for shielding your identity? > You do so at the cost of people assuming the worst about your > motives. The point of being anonymous is that there is no persistent identity to attribute motives to! Of course I have departed somewhat from this rule in the recent discussion, using a single exit remailer and maintaining continuity of persona over a series of messages. But feel free to make whatever assumptions you like about my motives. All I ask is that you respond to my facts. > Peter Trei > > PS: Speculating about the most tyrannical uses to which > a technology can be put has generally proved a winning > proposition. Of course, speculation is entirely appropriate - when labeled as such! But David Wagner gave the impression that he was talking about facts when he said, "The world is moving toward closed digital rights management systems where you may need approval to run programs," says David Wagner, an assistant professor of computer science at the University of California at Berkeley. "Both Palladium and TCPA incorporate features that would restrict what applications you could run." Do you think he was speculating? Or do you agree that if he makes such statements, he should base them on fact? TCPA appears to have no mechanism for the user to need approval in order to run programs. That is how the facts look to me, and if anyone can find out otherwise, I would appreciate knowing. Maybe someone could ask David Wagner what he based the above claim on? From remailer at aarg.net Thu Aug 1 16:45:15 2002 From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG!Anonymous) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 16:45:15 -0700 Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA Message-ID: <43b43ffa9f7461355370e3d638940a21@aarg.net> Eric Murray writes: > TCPA (when it isn't turned off) WILL restrict the software that you > can run. Software that has an invalid or missing signature won't be > able to access "sensitive data"[1]. Meaning that unapproved software > won't work. > > [1] TCPAmain_20v1_1a.pdf, section 2.2 We need to look at the text of this in more detail. This is from version 1.1b of the spec: : This section introduces the architectural aspects of a Trusted Platform : that enable the collection and reporting of integrity metrics. : : Among other things, a Trusted Platform enables an entity to determine : the state of the software environment in that platform and to SEAL data : to a particular software environment in that platform. : : The entity deduces whether the state of the computing environment in : that platform is acceptable and performs some transaction with that : platform. If that transaction involves sensitive data that must be : stored on the platform, the entity can ensure that that data is held in : a confidential format unless the state of the computing environment in : that platform is acceptable to the entity. : : To enable this, a Trusted Platform provides information to enable the : entity to deduce the software environment in a Trusted Platform. That : information is reliably measured and reported to the entity. At the same : time, a Trusted Platform provides a means to encrypt cryptographic keys : and to state the software environment that must be in place before the : keys can be decrypted. What this means is that a remote system can query the local TPM and find out what software has been loaded, in order to decide whether to send it some data. It's not that unapproved software "won't work", it's that the remote guy can decide whether to trust it. Also, as stated earlier, data can be sealed such that it can only be unsealed when the same environment is booted. This is the part above about encrypting cryptographic keys and making sure the right software environment is in place when they are decrypted. > Ok, technically it will run but can't access the data, > but that it a very fine hair to split, and depending on the nature of > the data that it can't access, it may not be able to run in truth. > > If TCPA allows all software to run, it defeats its purpose. > Therefore Wagner's statement is logically correct. But no, the TCPA does allow all software to run. Just because a remote system can decide whether to send it some data doesn't mean that software can't run. And just because some data may be inaccessible because it was sealed when another OS was booted, also doesnt mean that software can't run. I think we agree on the facts, here. All software can run, but the TCPA allows software to prove its hash to remote parties, and to encrypt data such that it can't be decrypted by other software. Would you agree that this is an accurate summary of the functionality, and not misleading? If so, I don't see how you can get from this to saying that some software won't run. You might as well say that encryption means that software can't run, because if I encrypt my files then some other programs may not be able to read them. Most people, as you may have seen, interpret this part about "software can't run" much more literally. They think it means that software needs a signature in order to be loaded and run. I have been going over and over this on sci.crypt. IMO the facts as stated two paragraphs up are completely different from such a model. > Yes, the spec says that it can be turned off. At that point you > can run anything that doesn't need any of the protected data or > other TCPA services. But, why would a software vendor that wants > the protection that TCPA provides allow his software to run > without TCPA as well, abandoning those protections? That's true; in fact if you ran it earlier under TCPA and sealed some data, you will have to run under TCPA to unseal it later. The question is whether the advantages of running under TCPA (potentially greater security) outweigh the disadvantages (greater potential for loss of data, less flexibility, etc.). > I doubt many would do so, the majority of TCPA-enabled > software will be TCPA-only. Perhaps not at first, but eventually > when there are enough TCPA machines out there. More likely, spiffy > new content and features will be enabled if one has TCPA and is > properly authenticated, disabled otherwise. But as we have seen > time after time, today's spiffy new content is tomorrows > virtual standard. Right, the strongest case will probably be for DRM. You might be able to download all kinds of content if you are running an OS and application that the server (content provider) trusts. People will have a choice of using TCPA and getting this data legally, or avoiding TCPA and trying to find pirated copies as they do today. > This will require the majority of people to run with TCPA turned on > if they want the content. TCPA doesn't need to be required by law, > the market will require it. At some point, running without TCPA > will be as difficult as avoiding MS software in an otherwise all-MS > office.... theoretically possible, but difficult in practice. I am inclined to agree; in fact I have made many postings (anonymously of course) in recent weeks arguing that these systems will be entirely voluntary. If the functionality is useful, people will use it. Software vendors who use TCPA will compete with those who don't. The market will decide. I am not as certain as you that TCPA will win, but if it does, it will mean that TCPA is a good technology that solves real problems for people. > "TCPA could be required" by the government or MS or company here> is, I agree, a red herring. It is not outside > the realm of possibility, in fact I'd bet that someone at MS has > seriously thought through the implications. But to my mind > the "requirement by defacto standard" scenerio I outline above > is much more likely, in fact it is certain to happen if TCPA > gets in more than say 50% of computers. The points I made earlier were that TCPA is unlikely to be mandated, because it doesn't need to be; that TCPA should compete in the free market with other solutions; and that this approach actually expands the set of choices available to the participants. More choice is always good. > I worked for a short while on a very early version of TCPA with Geoff > Strongin from AMD. We were both concerned that TCPA not be able to > be used to restrict user's freedom, and at the time I thought that > "you can always turn it off" was good enough. Now I'm not so sure. > If someday all the stuff that you do with your computer touches data that can > only be operated on by TCPA-enabled software, what are you going to do? Well, you would use TCPA. But you have to look at how you got into that situation. The way it would have happened was by people voluntarily adopting TCPA before it became a de facto standard, simply because it was useful. > BTW, what's your credentials? You seem familiar with the TCPA spec, which > is no mean feat considering that it seems to have been written to > make it as difficult to understand as possible (or perhaps someone > hired an out-of-work ISO standards writer). I think that Peter's > guess is spot on. Of course having you participate as a nym > is much preferable to not having you participate at all, so don't > feel as though you have to out yourself or stop posting. I have no credentials in this area other than a general knowledge of crypto; I am just someone who was willing to devote some hours of his free time to educating himself on this technology. I agree that the spec is written very poorly. But let me put you on the spot: as someone who has a good understanding of TCPA, what do you think of Ross Anderson's TCPA FAQ at http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/rja14/tcpa-faq.html? For example, how about his claim in answer 2, "Pirate software can be detected and deleted remotely." I must have missed that page of the TCPA spec. And then he builds on this a couple of paragraphs later: "There will be remote censorship: the mechanisms designed to delete pirated music under remote control may be used to delete documents that a court (or a software company) has decided are offensive...." He further builds on this later to claim (answer 11) that with TCPA, programs can be made to ignore documents created by pirated versions of Word, etc. All this has so little to do with anything related to TCPA that it boggles my mind. And then in answer 12 we're back to the claim that TCPA can stop computers from booting. Saddam better not buy a TCPA computer or the U.S. will render it inoperative, using a "serial number revocation list", according to the FAQ. Are you aware of any such capability in TCPA? I didn't see any such data structure. Ross Anderson means well, and so does David Wagner. But in the long run it hurts the credibility of critics when they make exaggerated and unfounded claims. --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From rah at shipwright.com Thu Aug 1 15:21:05 2002 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 18:21:05 -0400 Subject: Freedom of association denied in Ventura Cty In-Reply-To: <3D499014.EADB14F5@cdc.gov> References: <3D499014.EADB14F5@cdc.gov> Message-ID: At 12:46 PM -0700 on 8/1/02, Major Variola (ret) wrote: > Dress Code Keeps 9 Hells Angels Out of Fair in Ventura > Security: The new policy is enforced after biker club members refuse to > remove vests marked with group's insignia. Their leader says he will > sue. What ever happened to "One on all, all on one?" Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From jamesd at echeque.com Thu Aug 1 19:17:40 2002 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 19:17:40 -0700 Subject: TCPA In-Reply-To: <43b43ffa9f7461355370e3d638940a21@aarg.net> Message-ID: <3D498954.3356.26A0501@localhost> -- In an anarchist society, or in a world where government had given up on copyright and intellectual property, TCPA/Palladium would be a great thing, a really good substitute for law, much more effectual, much cheaper, and much less dangerous than law. In a world where we have anticircumvention laws and ever growing patent and copyright silliness, it seems a dangerously powerful addition to law. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG 6FaJusAR8fMsVvaFm9l3vbuyiQwio/YrBFLpyT6c 2Db/Fk0MeNi3mjdoDTo2IGzHeelYts0/xqiEjUFmA --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From jamesd at echeque.com Thu Aug 1 19:17:41 2002 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 19:17:41 -0700 Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA In-Reply-To: References: <15848a6fde52312200b0ab232c1ff953@aarg.net> Message-ID: <3D498955.13902.26A0551@localhost> -- On 2 Aug 2002 at 3:31, Sampo Syreeni wrote: > More generally, as long as we have computers which allow data to > be addressed as code and vice versa, the ability to control use > of data will necessarily entail ability to control use of code. > So, either we will get systems where circumventing copyright > controls is trivial or ones where you cannot compile your own > code. All the rest is just meaningless syntax. The announced purpose of TCPA/Palladium is to introduce some intermediate cases. For example you could compile your own code, and then encrypt it so that it can only run on a specific target computer. As somone who sells code, I would think this would be a great idea, were it not for the excesses we have been seeing from the IP lobbyists. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG iB5WVaGfx+zq5Dani1KQGdZIU5Kl21LDrc7w4e1m 2PoKhj2EuUKqjKlZ/RN3VXdP0TFKxmpO/rR69KupZ --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From jays at panix.com Thu Aug 1 17:05:38 2002 From: jays at panix.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 20:05:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA In-Reply-To: <15848a6fde52312200b0ab232c1ff953@aarg.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Aug 2002, AARG!Anonymous wrote: > Peter Trei writes: > > > I'm going to respond to AARGH!, our new Sternlight, by asking two questions. > > > > 1. Why can't I control what signing keys the Fritz chip trusts? > > > > If the point of TCPA is make it so *I* can trust that *my* computer > > to run the software *I* have approved, and refuse to run something > > which a virus or Trojan has modifed (and this, btw, is the stated > > intention of TCPA), then why the hell don't I have full control over > > the keys? If I did, the thing might actually work to my benefit. > > > > The beneficiary of TCPA when I don't have ultimate root control is > > not I. It is someone else. That is not an acceptable situation. > > You might be surprised to learn that under the TCPA, it is not necessary > for the TPM (the so-called "Fritz" chip) to trust *any* signing keys! > > The TCPA basically provides two kinds of functionality: first, it can > attest to the software which was booted and loaded. It does this by > taking hashes of the software before transferring control to it, and > storing those hashes in its internal secure registers. At a later > time it can output those hashes, signed by its internal signature > key (generated on-chip, with the private key never leaving the chip). > The system also holds a cert issued on this internal key (which is called > the Endorsement key), and this cert is issued by the TPM manufacturer > (also called the TPME). But this functionality does not require storing > the TPME key, just the cert it issued. > > Second, the TCPA provides for secure storage via a "sealing" function. > The way this works, a key is generated and used to encrypt a data blob. > Buried in the blob can be a hash of the software which was running > at the time of the encryption (the same data which can be reported > via the attestation function). Then, when the data is decrypted and > "unsealed", the hash is compared to that which is in the TPM registers > now. This can make it so that data which is encrypted when software > system X boots can only be decrypted when that same software boots. > Again, this functionality does not require trusting anyone's keys. > > Now, there is an optional function which does use the manufacturer's key, > but it is intended only to be used rarely. That is for when you need to > transfer your sealed data from one machine to another (either because you > have bought a new machine, or because your old one crashed). In this > case you go through a complicated procedure that includes encrypting > some data to the TPME key (the TPM manufacturer's key) and sending it > to the manufacturer, who massages the data such that it can be loaded > into the new machine's TPM chip. > > So this function does require pre-loading a manufacturer key into the > TPM, but first, it is optional, and second, it frankly appears to be so > cumbersome that it is questionable whether manufacturers will want to > get involved with it. OTOH it is apparently the only way to recover > if your system crashes. This may indicate that TCPA is not feasible, > because there is too much risk of losing locked data on a machine crash, > and the recovery procedure is too cumbersome. That would be a valid > basis on which to criticize TCPA, but it doesn't change the fact that > many of the other claims which have been made about it are not correct. > > In answer to your question, then, for most purposes, there is no signing > key that your TPM chip trusts, so the issue is moot. I suggest that you > go ask the people who misled you about TCPA what their ulterior motives > were, since you seem predisposed to ask such questions. > > > > 2. It's really curious that Mr. AARGH! has shown up simultaneously > > on the lists and on sci.crypt, with the single brief of supporting TCPA. > > > > While I totally support his or her right to post anonymously, I can only > > speculate that anonymity is being used to disguise some vested > > interest in supporting TCPA. In other words, I infer that Mr. AARGH! > > is a TCPA insider, who is embarassed to reveal himself in public. > > > > So my question is: What is your reason for shielding your identity? > > You do so at the cost of people assuming the worst about your > > motives. > > The point of being anonymous is that there is no persistent identity to > attribute motives to! Of course I have departed somewhat from this rule > in the recent discussion, using a single exit remailer and maintaining > continuity of persona over a series of messages. But feel free to make > whatever assumptions you like about my motives. All I ask is that you > respond to my facts. > > > > Peter Trei > > > > PS: Speculating about the most tyrannical uses to which > > a technology can be put has generally proved a winning > > proposition. > > Of course, speculation is entirely appropriate - when labeled as such! > But David Wagner gave the impression that he was talking about facts > when he said, > > "The world is moving toward closed digital rights management systems > where you may need approval to run programs," says David Wagner, > an assistant professor of computer science at the University of > California at Berkeley. "Both Palladium and TCPA incorporate features > that would restrict what applications you could run." > > Do you think he was speculating? Or do you agree that if he makes > such statements, he should base them on fact? TCPA appears to have > no mechanism for the user to need approval in order to run programs. > That is how the facts look to me, and if anyone can find out otherwise, > I would appreciate knowing. Maybe someone could ask David Wagner what > he based the above claim on? By your own account the system is designed to give root in an manner claimed to be incorrigible by me, but certainly inconvenient to me, to others. May I ask whether your definition of TCPA includes the legal and economic infrastructures whose purpose is to require that at some date in the future all computers sold be TCPA enabled? If so what is the claimed advantage to me here? Since I can certainly today let you ssh in to my box and run stuff in a sandbox and I can certainly decide to not observe you running your stuff. TCPA in any form offers no advantages whatsoever except to the Englobulators. oo--JS. From jays at panix.com Thu Aug 1 17:41:23 2002 From: jays at panix.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 20:41:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA In-Reply-To: <43b43ffa9f7461355370e3d638940a21@aarg.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Aug 2002, AARG!Anonymous wrote: > Eric Murray writes: > > TCPA (when it isn't turned off) WILL restrict the software that you > > can run. Software that has an invalid or missing signature won't be > > able to access "sensitive data"[1]. Meaning that unapproved software > > won't work. > > > > [1] TCPAmain_20v1_1a.pdf, section 2.2 > > We need to look at the text of this in more detail. This is from > version 1.1b of the spec: > > : This section introduces the architectural aspects of a Trusted Platform > : that enable the collection and reporting of integrity metrics. > : > : Among other things, a Trusted Platform enables an entity to determine > : the state of the software environment in that platform and to SEAL data > : to a particular software environment in that platform. Claimed advantage to me here? > : > : The entity deduces whether the state of the computing environment in > : that platform is acceptable and performs some transaction with that > : platform. If that transaction involves sensitive data that must be > : stored on the platform, the entity can ensure that that data is held in > : a confidential format unless the state of the computing environment in > : that platform is acceptable to the entity. Claimed advantage to me here? > : > : To enable this, a Trusted Platform provides information to enable the > : entity to deduce the software environment in a Trusted Platform. That > : information is reliably measured and reported to the entity. At the same > : time, a Trusted Platform provides a means to encrypt cryptographic keys > : and to state the software environment that must be in place before the > : keys can be decrypted. > > What this means is that a remote system can query the local TPM and > find out what software has been loaded, in order to decide whether to > send it some data. It's not that unapproved software "won't work", > it's that the remote guy can decide whether to trust it. Claimed advantage to me here? > > Also, as stated earlier, data can be sealed such that it can only be > unsealed when the same environment is booted. This is the part above > about encrypting cryptographic keys and making sure the right software > environment is in place when they are decrypted. Claimed advantage to me here? > > > Ok, technically it will run but can't access the data, > > but that it a very fine hair to split, and depending on the nature of > > the data that it can't access, it may not be able to run in truth. > > > > If TCPA allows all software to run, it defeats its purpose. > > Therefore Wagner's statement is logically correct. > > But no, the TCPA does allow all software to run. Just because a remote > system can decide whether to send it some data doesn't mean that software > can't run. And just because some data may be inaccessible because it > was sealed when another OS was booted, also doesnt mean that software > can't run. Claimed advantage to me here? > > I think we agree on the facts, here. All software can run, but the TCPA > allows software to prove its hash to remote parties, and to encrypt data > such that it can't be decrypted by other software. Would you agree that > this is an accurate summary of the functionality, and not misleading? Of course we do not agree. Under the DRM/TCPA regime I cannot legally do the following thing: Spoof your handshake and then run my cracker on the encrypted data you send me. So some software will not legally run under DRM/TCPA. > > If so, I don't see how you can get from this to saying that some software > won't run. You might as well say that encryption means that software > can't run, because if I encrypt my files then some other programs may > not be able to read them. See above. Please be precise in your response. > > Most people, as you may have seen, interpret this part about "software > can't run" much more literally. They think it means that software needs > a signature in order to be loaded and run. I have been going over and > over this on sci.crypt. IMO the facts as stated two paragraphs up are > completely different from such a model. No. They are exactly "software needs to be signed to run". Otherwise why cannot I run cp on the movie that Time-Warner-AOL sends me? > > > Yes, the spec says that it can be turned off. At that point you > > can run anything that doesn't need any of the protected data or > > other TCPA services. But, why would a software vendor that wants > > the protection that TCPA provides allow his software to run > > without TCPA as well, abandoning those protections? > > That's true; in fact if you ran it earlier under TCPA and sealed some > data, you will have to run under TCPA to unseal it later. The question > is whether the advantages of running under TCPA (potentially greater > security) outweigh the disadvantages (greater potential for loss of > data, less flexibility, etc.). Ah, so much for your claim that all software that now runs will run under DRM/TCPA. You admit that software I may now run cannot be run under DRM/TCPA. > > > I doubt many would do so, the majority of TCPA-enabled > > software will be TCPA-only. Perhaps not at first, but eventually > > when there are enough TCPA machines out there. More likely, spiffy > > new content and features will be enabled if one has TCPA and is > > properly authenticated, disabled otherwise. But as we have seen > > time after time, today's spiffy new content is tomorrows > > virtual standard. > > Right, the strongest case will probably be for DRM. You might be able > to download all kinds of content if you are running an OS and application > that the server (content provider) trusts. People will have a choice of > using TCPA and getting this data legally, or avoiding TCPA and trying to > find pirated copies as they do today. No. Under DRM every "hole" must be plugged. Else what is the bleating about the "analogue hole"? So obviously no non-DRM computer may be allowed to be sold to the general public under DRM. Demonstration by formal admission of pro-DRM forces: Section 4.12 of the Final Report of the Broadcast Protection Discussion Group, found in the main body of the report at http://www.eff.org/IP/Video/HDTV/bpdg-report > > > This will require the majority of people to run with TCPA turned on > > if they want the content. TCPA doesn't need to be required by law, > > the market will require it. At some point, running without TCPA > > will be as difficult as avoiding MS software in an otherwise all-MS > > office.... theoretically possible, but difficult in practice. > > I am inclined to agree; in fact I have made many postings (anonymously > of course) in recent weeks arguing that these systems will be entirely > voluntary. If the functionality is useful, people will use it. > Software vendors who use TCPA will compete with those who don't. > The market will decide. I am not as certain as you that TCPA will win, > but if it does, it will mean that TCPA is a good technology that solves > real problems for people. Ah, now you have fallen off the high line of the long troll. This is simply beneath the level of your game. What you should do is claim that even if DRM is enforced all over the world, that this must be, from a higher and more encompassing viewpoint, a triumph of "the market" and the will of the people. > > > "TCPA could be required" by the government or MS or > company here> is, I agree, a red herring. It is not outside > > the realm of possibility, in fact I'd bet that someone at MS has > > seriously thought through the implications. But to my mind > > the "requirement by defacto standard" scenerio I outline above > > is much more likely, in fact it is certain to happen if TCPA > > gets in more than say 50% of computers. > > The points I made earlier were that TCPA is unlikely to be mandated, > because it doesn't need to be; that TCPA should compete in the free > market with other solutions; and that this approach actually expands the > set of choices available to the participants. More choice is always good. Good grief! Please retuen to a less hopelessly ridiculous line. If TCPA is so good, and it "might win in the market", well, let 10,000 TCPA implementations bloom! > > > > I worked for a short while on a very early version of TCPA with Geoff > > Strongin from AMD. We were both concerned that TCPA not be able to > > be used to restrict user's freedom, and at the time I thought that > > "you can always turn it off" was good enough. Now I'm not so sure. > > If someday all the stuff that you do with your computer touches data that can > > only be operated on by TCPA-enabled software, what are you going to do? > > Well, you would use TCPA. But you have to look at how you got into that > situation. The way it would have happened was by people voluntarily > adopting TCPA before it became a de facto standard, simply because it > was useful. > > > > BTW, what's your credentials? You seem familiar with the TCPA spec, which > > is no mean feat considering that it seems to have been written to > > make it as difficult to understand as possible (or perhaps someone > > hired an out-of-work ISO standards writer). I think that Peter's > > guess is spot on. Of course having you participate as a nym > > is much preferable to not having you participate at all, so don't > > feel as though you have to out yourself or stop posting. > > I have no credentials in this area other than a general knowledge of > crypto; I am just someone who was willing to devote some hours of his > free time to educating himself on this technology. I agree that the > spec is written very poorly. > > But let me put you on the spot: as someone who has a good > understanding of TCPA, what do you think of Ross Anderson's TCPA FAQ > at http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/rja14/tcpa-faq.html? For example, > how about his claim in answer 2, "Pirate software can be detected and > deleted remotely." I must have missed that page of the TCPA spec. > And then he builds on this a couple of paragraphs later: "There will > be remote censorship: the mechanisms designed to delete pirated music > under remote control may be used to delete documents that a court (or > a software company) has decided are offensive...." He further builds > on this later to claim (answer 11) that with TCPA, programs can be made > to ignore documents created by pirated versions of Word, etc. All this > has so little to do with anything related to TCPA that it boggles my mind. > > And then in answer 12 we're back to the claim that TCPA can stop computers > from booting. Saddam better not buy a TCPA computer or the U.S. will > render it inoperative, using a "serial number revocation list", according > to the FAQ. Are you aware of any such capability in TCPA? I didn't see > any such data structure. > > Ross Anderson means well, and so does David Wagner. But in the long > run it hurts the credibility of critics when they make exaggerated and > unfounded claims. I have demonstrated, by example, and by official statements of your own side, that your claims are incorrect.. I recommend a broader. looser, and more amusing approach to the defense of DRM. I like the old Hegelian standard: "THE OVERMIND NEEDS DRM NOW SO AS TO BE BORN WITHOUT RIPPING ALL HUMAN HISTORY INTO NON-EXISTENCE BY BACK-REACTION." oo--JS. From jon at callas.org Thu Aug 1 20:47:05 2002 From: jon at callas.org (Jon Callas) Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 20:47:05 -0700 Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 8/1/02 1:14 PM, "Trei, Peter" wrote: > So my question is: What is your reason for shielding your identity? > You do so at the cost of people assuming the worst about your > motives. Is this a tacit way to suggest that the only people who need anonymity or pseudonymity are those with something to hide? Jon --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From remailer at aarg.net Thu Aug 1 21:15:09 2002 From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 21:15:09 -0700 Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA Message-ID: Sampo Syreeni writes: > On 2002-08-01, AARG!Anonymous uttered to ptrei at rsasecurity.com,...: > > >It does this by taking hashes of the software before transferring > >control to it, and storing those hashes in its internal secure > >registers. > > So, is there some sort of guarantee that the transfer of control won't be > stopped by a check against cryptographic signature within the executable > itself, in the future? That sort of thing would be trivial to enforce via > licencing terms, after all, and would allow for the introduction of a > strictly limited set of operating systems to which control would be > transferred. TCPA apparently does not have "licensing terms" per se. They say, in their FAQ, http://www.trustedcomputing.org/docs/Website_TCPA%20FAQ_0703021.pdf, "The TCPA spec is currently set up as a 'just publish' IP model." So there are no licensing terms to enforce, and no guarantees that people won't do bad things outside the scope of the spec. Of course, you realize that the same thing is true with PCs today, right? There are few guarantees in this life. If you think about it, TCPA doesn't actually facilitate the kind of crypto-signature-checking you are talking about. You don't need all this fancy hardware and secure hashes to do that. Your worrisome signature checking would be applied on the software which *hasn't yet been loaded*, right? All the TCPA hardware will give you is a secure hash on the software which has already loaded before you ran. That doesn't help you; in fact your code can pretty well predict the value of this, given that it is running. Think about this carefully, it is a complicated point but you can get it if you take your time. In short, to implement a system where only signed code can run, TCPA is not necessary and not particularly helpful. > I'm having a lot of trouble seeing the benefit in TCPA > without such extra measures, given that open source software would likely > evolve which circumvented any protection offered by the more open ended > architecture you now describe. I don't follow what you are getting at with the open source. Realize that when you boot a different OS, the TCPA attestation features will allow third parties to detect this. So your open source OS cannot masquerade as a different one and fool a third party server into downloading data to your software. And likewise, data which was sealed (encrypted) under a secure OS cannot be unsealed once a different OS boots, because the sealing/unsealing is all done on-chip, and the chip uses the secure hash registers to check if the unsealing is allowed. > >Then, when the data is decrypted and "unsealed", the hash is compared to > >that which is in the TPM registers now. This can make it so that data > >which is encrypted when software system X boots can only be decrypted > >when that same software boots. > > Again, such values would be RE'd and reported by any sane open source OS > to the circuitry, giving access to whatever data there is. If this is > prevented, one can bootstrap an absolutely secure platform where whatever > the content provider says is the Law, including a one where every piece of > runnable OS software actually enforces the kind of control over > permissible signatures Peter is so worried about. Where's the guarantee > that this won't happen, one day? Not sure I follow this here... the sealed data cannot be reported by an open source OS because the secret keys never leave the chip without being themselves encrypted. As for your second proposal, you are suggesting that you could write an OS which would only run signed applications? And run it on a TCPA platform? Sure, I guess you could. But you wouldn't need TCPA features to do it. See the comments above: any OS today could be modified to only run apps that were signed with some special key. You shouldn't blame TCPA for this. > >In answer to your question, then, for most purposes, there is no signing > >key that your TPM chip trusts, so the issue is moot. > > At the hardware level, yes. TCPA is a hardware spec. Peter was asking about TCPA, and I gave him the answer. You can hypothesize all the facist software you want, but you shouldn't blame these fantasies on TCPA. > At the software one, it probably won't be, > even in the presence of the above considerations. After you install your > next Windows version, you will be tightly locked in with whatever M$ > throws at you in their DLL's, Doesn't Microsoft already sign their system DLLs in NT? > and as I pointed out, there's absolutely no > guarantee Linux et al. might well be shut out by extra features, in the > future. In the end what we get is an architecture, which may not embody > Peter's concerns right now, but which is built from the ground up to bring > them into being, later. Again, you are being entirely hypothetical here. Please describe exactly how either attestation or secure storage would assist in creating a boot loader that would refuse to run Linux, or whatever other horrible disaster you envision. > More generally, as long as we have computers which allow data to be > addressed as code and vice versa, the ability to control use of data will > necessarily entail ability to control use of code. Look, I have describe in detail how it works, and you're just giving these meaningless slogans. TCPA lets you prove to other people what code you are running; it lets you seal data such that it can only be unsealed by the same code which sealed it. How does this relate to your little saying? The ability to encrypt data means... the ability to encrypt code? So what? > So, either we will get > systems where circumventing copyright controls is trivial or ones where > you cannot compile your own code. All the rest is just meaningless syntax. > In that light I bet you can guess why people are worried about TCPA and > its ilk. Nonsense, there is no need to stop people from compiling their own code in order to protect data! The steps are simple: trusted app runs, connects to server; proves it is trusted via TCPA attestation; server downloads data to trusted app based on attestation; trusted app seals data. User reboots into open source OS, can't access data because it is sealed; can't fool server because of attestation. He can write all the code he wants and it won't change this logic. TCPA does not depend on stopping people from running their own code; it depends on verifying what code is running, and tying it to the crypto. That's all. From uktfu at cosy.sbg.ac.at Fri Aug 2 09:16:51 2002 From: uktfu at cosy.sbg.ac.at (Garcia) Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 21:16:51 -1900 Subject: Stoner says, "Call now, we're open" Message-ID: <200208020551.AAB00397@einstein.ssz.com> *************************** Now Open Seven Days A Week! Call 1-623-974-2295 10:30 AM to 7:00 PM (Mountain Time) *************************** >From the ethnobotanical herbalists who brought the herba supplementals; Kathmandu Temple Kiff “1” & “2” “Personal-Choice”, pipe-smoking products/substances to the common market!!! 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(a $65.00 retail value). ==================================================== To remove your address from our list, click "Reply" in your email software and type "Remove" in the subject field, then send. From koontz at ariolimax.com Thu Aug 1 22:33:20 2002 From: koontz at ariolimax.com (David G. Koontz) Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 22:33:20 -0700 Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA References: Message-ID: <3D4A19A0.1040507@ariolimax.com> Jon Callas wrote: > On 8/1/02 1:14 PM, "Trei, Peter" wrote: > > >>So my question is: What is your reason for shielding your identity? >>You do so at the cost of people assuming the worst about your >>motives. > > > Is this a tacit way to suggest that the only people who need anonymity or > pseudonymity are those with something to hide? > . Anonymity is generally considered a a requirement for the political process in the United States to protect the right to express political speech without regard to being harrassed by those in power. There have been several federal court decisions in the last few years that have struck down laws limiting anonymity for political speech. One that comes to mind was a requirement in Chicago, I think that required the authors name on political phamplets. Would a law requiring such technical measures for controlling access to copyrighted information as proposed by representatives of Disney, et. al. in the U.S. Congress recently that incidentally by design prevented anonymity be found to be unconstitutionally limiting freedom of political speech on the internet by its chilling effect? From sfurlong at acmenet.net Thu Aug 1 19:48:07 2002 From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 22:48:07 -0400 Subject: Freedom of association denied in Ventura Cty In-Reply-To: <3D499014.EADB14F5@cdc.gov> References: <3D499014.EADB14F5@cdc.gov> Message-ID: <200208012248.07084.sfurlong@acmenet.net> On Thursday 01 August 2002 15:46, Major Variola (ret) wrote: > Dress Code Keeps 9 Hells Angels Out of Fair in Ventura > Security: The new policy is enforced after biker club members refuse > to remove vests marked with group's insignia. Their leader says he > will sue. Is it just me, or does "I'll see you in court" lack the impact of "I'll make your bitch squeal"? -- Steve Furlong Computer Condottiere Have GNU, Will Travel Vote Idiotarian --- it's easier than thinking From daw at mozart.cs.berkeley.edu Thu Aug 1 17:36:43 2002 From: daw at mozart.cs.berkeley.edu (David Wagner) Date: 2 Aug 2002 00:36:43 GMT Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA References: <3D4946C7.7343.1660D69@localhost> Message-ID: James A. Donald wrote: >According to Microsoft, the end user can turn the palladium >hardware off, and the computer will still boot. As long as that >is true, it is an end user option and no one can object. Your point is taken. That said, even if you could turn off TCPA & Palladium and run some outdated version of Windows, whether users would object is not entirely obvious. For instance, suppose that, thanks to TCPA/Palladium, Microsoft could design Office 2005 so that it is impossible for StarOffice and other clones to read files created in Office 2005. Would some users object? I don't know. For many users, being unable to read documents created in a recent version of Office is simply not an option. However, in any case we should consider in advance the possible implications of this technology. From ray at unipay.nl Thu Aug 1 16:08:47 2002 From: ray at unipay.nl (R. Hirschfeld) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 01:08:47 +0200 Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA In-Reply-To: <3D46FC4C.1146.2D7F8BE@localhost> (jamesd@echeque.com) References: <3D46FC4C.1146.2D7F8BE@localhost> Message-ID: <200208012308.BAA00912@home.unipay.nl> > From: "James A. Donald" > Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 20:51:24 -0700 > On 29 Jul 2002 at 15:35, AARG! Anonymous wrote: > > both Palladium and TCPA deny that they are designed to restrict > > what applications you run. The TPM FAQ at > > http://www.trustedcomputing.org/docs/TPM_QA_071802.pdf reads > > .... > > They deny that intent, but physically they have that capability. To make their denial credible, they could give the owner access to the private key of the TPM/SCP. But somehow I don't think that jibes with their agenda. If I buy a lock I expect that by demonstrating ownership I can get a replacement key or have a locksmith legally open it. From Kevin.Wall at qwest.com Thu Aug 1 22:10:15 2002 From: Kevin.Wall at qwest.com (Wall, Kevin) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 01:10:15 -0400 Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA Message-ID: <9956F8424795D411B03B0008C786E60D09EA42FF@dubntex005.qwest.net> First off, let me say that in general, I am against almost everything that the DCMA stands for and am no fan of DRM either. But I do think that we will lose credibility if we can't substantiate our claims, and part of that means recognizing and acknowledging what appears to be legitimate claims from the TCPA side. Having said that, let me plunge right in and proceed to mark a complete fool of myself. Besides, so what if another hundred spambots harvest my e-mail address for breast enlargement ads (stupid spambots--think they could at least use my name to determine my sex and send me the herbal Viagra ads instead. ;-) Note that I'm interpreting Jay's reiterated question of "Claimed advantage to me here?" in the more general sense of advantage to anyone rather than to Jay personally. Not knowing him, the latter would be a rather difficult assessment to make. So, on with it already. Open mouth, insert foot... (yumm.. filet of sole)... Jay Sulzberger writes... > On Thu, 1 Aug 2002, AARG!Anonymous wrote: > > > Eric Murray writes: > > > TCPA (when it isn't turned off) WILL restrict the software that you > > > can run. Software that has an invalid or missing signature won't be > > > able to access "sensitive data"[1]. Meaning that unapproved software > > > won't work. > > > > > > [1] TCPAmain_20v1_1a.pdf, section 2.2 > > > > We need to look at the text of this in more detail. This is from > > version 1.1b of the spec: > > > > : This section introduces the architectural aspects of a Trusted > > : Platform that enable the collection and reporting of integrity > > : metrics. > > : > > : Among other things, a Trusted Platform enables an entity to > > : determine the state of the software environment in that platform > > : and to SEAL data to a particular software environment in that > > : platform. > > > Claimed advantage to me here? If you produce copyrighted materials that you don't want others to illegal copy, it can protect your assets. Might also be useful in protecting state secrets, but general crypto is sufficient for that. (Don't need it at the hardware level unless you are worried that some TLA gov't agency is out to get you.) The advantage depends on one whether is a producer of goods, or merely a consumer. I shall not make a judgement call as to which is more important. Suffice it to say that both need each other. [more from TCPA spec] > > : > > : The entity deduces whether the state of the computing environment in > > : that platform is acceptable and performs some transaction with that > > : platform. If that transaction involves sensitive data that must be > > : stored on the platform, the entity can ensure that that data is held > > : in a confidential format unless the state of the computing environment > > : in that platform is acceptable to the entity. > > Claimed advantage to me here? One could use this to detect virus infected systems, systems infected with root kits, etc., could they not? Also, ones alluded to above come to mind. > > : > > : To enable this, a Trusted Platform provides information to enable > > : the entity to deduce the software environment in a Trusted Platform. > > : That information is reliably measured and reported to the entity. > > : At the same time, a Trusted Platform provides a means to encrypt > > : cryptographic keys and to state the software environment that must > > : be in place before the keys can be decrypted. > > > > What this means is that a remote system can query the local TPM and > > find out what software has been loaded, in order to decide whether to > > send it some data. It's not that unapproved software "won't work", > > it's that the remote guy can decide whether to trust it. > > Claimed advantage to me here? Well, here's one place that I can see a potential value to consumers. I've thought a lot about how one can secure peer-to-peer (P2P) systems. Sure, if I want to allow my box be a P2P host, I can use a sandboxing technique to control and restrict (at least in theory) what rights I give other programs to run. [I'm think of a sense similar to the Java sandbox used for running applets.] However, the more interesting, and I believe more challenging piece is what guarentees can you give *ME* as a user of P2P services if I design some important code that I wish to utilize some generic P2P service. Unless I want to pay specific services for a P2P or grid computing from some company that I might happen to trust, be it IBM, HP, or whomever, I'll probably use some (future?) P2P services that are open sourced freeware that typical home users might host out of the generosity of their hearts (whereby they allow others to use some of their spare cycles). While this is all well and good, my level of trust would likely not be at the same level it would be if I paid a company to use their services. The feeling being if I buy a service from a reputable company and they intentionally do something malicious such as steal private data, etc. I can haul their butts to court. No such luck when dealing with the faceless masses. Bottom line seems to be that you get what you pay for. In particular, I'd be afraid that a few rogues might intentionally try to screw up my calculations giving me bad results or run a debugger and examine my data while it is unencrypted for some short part of the calculation, etc. How do I prevent that? Well, I don't think that it can necessarilly be PREVENTED, but all I really need to do is detect it...preferably before hand. Thus it would seem that giving the ability of a remote system to query a particular system's local TPM to see whether it is "trustworthy" (by whatever criteria that *I* decide) is just what the doctor ordered in this case. Or am I missing something here? Without this, I don't see how I would ever trust all the faceless masses P2P network for anything remotely critical or sensitive to me. > > Also, as stated earlier, data can be sealed such that it can only be > > unsealed when the same environment is booted. This is the part above > > about encrypting cryptographic keys and making sure the right software > > environment is in place when they are decrypted. > > Claimed advantage to me here? > Your turn. My little fingers are getting weary. Someone else take it from here. > > > Ok, technically it will run but can't access the data, > > > but that it a very fine hair to split, and depending on the nature > > > of the data that it can't access, it may not be able to run in truth. > > > > > > If TCPA allows all software to run, it defeats its purpose. > > > Therefore Wagner's statement is logically correct. > > > > But no, the TCPA does allow all software to run. Just because a > remote > > system can decide whether to send it some data doesn't mean that > software > > can't run. And just because some data may be inaccessible because it > > was sealed when another OS was booted, also doesnt mean that software > > can't run. > > Claimed advantage to me here? > I think that we had better define our terms here. What does it mean for a program to "run". I think most of us would hold that we mean that it executes in a way that provides the normal and generally expected functionality. Which would mean that if I put in my own copy of a audio CD that I burned for a backout copy, it should play the audio CD without any loss of quality rather than telling me that I have a pirated copy and that it's going to report me to MPAA or RIAA. However, I'm not going into any advantages or disadvantages. For the most part, I agree with Ross and David not because what they state necessarily is the intent of the TCPA or Palladium today, but because I believe that in general both humans and therefore human corporations are in essence greedy and seedy (not necessarily in that order). Of course, I have to add that I speak for myself (most of the time; sometimes my lips just move but some other voices come out ;) rather than for my company. Etc. -kevin wall From Kevin.Wall at qwest.com Thu Aug 1 22:27:19 2002 From: Kevin.Wall at qwest.com (Wall, Kevin) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 01:27:19 -0400 Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA Message-ID: <9956F8424795D411B03B0008C786E60D09EA4300@dubntex005.qwest.net> Mr AARG! writes... > Eric Murray writes: > > Yes, the spec says that it can be turned off. At that point you > > can run anything that doesn't need any of the protected data or > > other TCPA services. But, why would a software vendor that wants > > the protection that TCPA provides allow his software to run > > without TCPA as well, abandoning those protections? > > That's true; in fact if you ran it earlier under TCPA and sealed some > data, you will have to run under TCPA to unseal it later. The question > is whether the advantages of running under TCPA (potentially greater > security) outweigh the disadvantages (greater potential for loss of > data, less flexibility, etc.). and in another reply to Peter Trei, Mr. AARG! also writes... > Now, there is an optional function which does use the manufacturer's key, > but it is intended only to be used rarely. That is for when you need to > transfer your sealed data from one machine to another (either because you > have bought a new machine, or because your old one crashed). In this > case you go through a complicated procedure that includes encrypting > some data to the TPME key (the TPM manufacturer's key) and sending it > to the manufacturer, who massages the data such that it can be loaded > into the new machine's TPM chip. > > So this function does require pre-loading a manufacturer key into the > TPM, but first, it is optional, and second, it frankly appears to be so > cumbersome that it is questionable whether manufacturers will want to > get involved with it. OTOH it is apparently the only way to recover > if your system crashes. This may indicate that TCPA is not feasible, > because there is too much risk of losing locked data on a machine crash, > and the recovery procedure is too cumbersome. That would be a valid > basis on which to criticize TCPA, but it doesn't change the fact that > many of the other claims which have been made about it are not correct. Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm sure you all will :), but wouldn't you also have to possibly go through this exercise with the TPME key and sending your system to the manufacturer when you wanted to, say, upgrade your operating system or switch to a completely different OS? That will go over like a lead balloon. (Gee... must be getting late. I almost wrote "like a bag of dirt". Duh! Can't even remember cliches at my age.) -kevin wall P.S.- Please excuse the sh*t formating. We use Lookout! and MS Exstrange where I work. --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From adam at cypherspace.org Thu Aug 1 18:28:17 2002 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 02:28:17 +0100 Subject: document popularity estimation / amortizable hashcash (Re: Hollywood Hackers) In-Reply-To: <20020731213435.A346258@exeter.ac.uk>; from adam@cypherspace.org on Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 09:34:35PM +0100 References: <8d94fd13ad3927e1ffe95293727b1cc6@ecn.org> <20020731213435.A346258@exeter.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20020802022817.A474159@exeter.ac.uk> This paper is quite interesting and proposes another method of metering content [1]: http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/naor98secure.html It's proposed in the context of web site traffic metering to determine site traffic rates (for advertising payment or other applications). It relies on a trusted auditor, which could become a central failure point so is perhaps less attractive for file sharing, but perhaps that could be fixed. Another problem is that it presumes a communication pattern where the auditor sends a secret to each user, the user makes a cheap computation involving the secret to send with each request, and then the respective server collects all of the requests it gets and does some computation to arrive at a compact proof that it received some number k of requests. (The server also receives a secret, but this is not problematic, it it anyway wants to participate). On the plus side their approach is not probabilistic -- it gives an accurate measurement of traffic, it is also not vulnerable to server traffic inflation, and is somewhat resistant to multiple client and server collusion. (Though of course any scheme is generically vulnerable to server traffic inflation -- servers can _act_ as multiple clients and simply generate the claimed traffic themselves, or contract other parties to do this for them.) Adam [1] @article{Naor:98:secure-and-efficient-metering author = "Moni Naor and Benny Pinkas", title = "Secure and Efficient Metering", journal = "Lecture Notes in Computer Science", volume = "1403", pages = "576--??", year = "1998", note = "Also available as \url{http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/naor98secure.html}" } On Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 09:34:35PM +0100, Adam Back wrote: > I proposed a construct which could be used for this application: > called "amortizable hashcash". > > http://www.cypherspace.org/hashcash/amortizable.pdf > > The application I had in mind was also file sharing. (This was > sometime in Mar 2000). I described this problem as the "disitrbuted > document popularity estimation" problem. The other aspect of the > problem is you have to distribute the popularity estimate and make it > accessible, so I think you want it to be workably compact (you don't > want to ship around 1 million hash collisions on the document hash). > Amortizable hashcash addresses this problem. > > There is also some discussion of it here: > > http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/crypto/2000-q1/0440.html > > Adam > > On Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 04:25:30PM +0200, Eugen Leitl wrote: > > It should use scarce resources (e.g. crunch) to generate a trust > > currency in each node, a kind of decentralized mint (nothing > > crunches quite a few million boxes on the Net). From decoy at iki.fi Thu Aug 1 17:31:12 2002 From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 03:31:12 +0300 (EEST) Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA In-Reply-To: <15848a6fde52312200b0ab232c1ff953@aarg.net> Message-ID: On 2002-08-01, AARG!Anonymous uttered to ptrei at rsasecurity.com,...: >It does this by taking hashes of the software before transferring >control to it, and storing those hashes in its internal secure >registers. So, is there some sort of guarantee that the transfer of control won't be stopped by a check against cryptographic signature within the executable itself, in the future? That sort of thing would be trivial to enforce via licencing terms, after all, and would allow for the introduction of a strictly limited set of operating systems to which control would be transferred. I'm having a lot of trouble seeing the benefit in TCPA without such extra measures, given that open source software would likely evolve which circumvented any protection offered by the more open ended architecture you now describe. Such a development would simply mean that Peter's concern would be transferred a level up, without losing its relevance. I'd also contend that this extra level of diversion is precisely what TCPA, with its purported policy of "no trusted keys" aims at. >Then, when the data is decrypted and "unsealed", the hash is compared to >that which is in the TPM registers now. This can make it so that data >which is encrypted when software system X boots can only be decrypted >when that same software boots. Again, such values would be RE'd and reported by any sane open source OS to the circuitry, giving access to whatever data there is. If this is prevented, one can bootstrap an absolutely secure platform where whatever the content provider says is the Law, including a one where every piece of runnable OS software actually enforces the kind of control over permissible signatures Peter is so worried about. Where's the guarantee that this won't happen, one day? >In answer to your question, then, for most purposes, there is no signing >key that your TPM chip trusts, so the issue is moot. At the hardware level, yes. At the software one, it probably won't be, even in the presence of the above considerations. After you install your next Windows version, you will be tightly locked in with whatever M$ throws at you in their DLL's, and as I pointed out, there's absolutely no guarantee Linux et al. might well be shut out by extra features, in the future. In the end what we get is an architecture, which may not embody Peter's concerns right now, but which is built from the ground up to bring them into being, later. More generally, as long as we have computers which allow data to be addressed as code and vice versa, the ability to control use of data will necessarily entail ability to control use of code. So, either we will get systems where circumventing copyright controls is trivial or ones where you cannot compile your own code. All the rest is just meaningless syntax. In that light I bet you can guess why people are worried about TCPA and its ilk. -- Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - mailto:decoy at iki.fi, tel:+358-50-5756111 student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front openpgp: 050985C2/025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2 --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From marhkiru564 at cln.it Fri Aug 2 16:41:06 2002 From: marhkiru564 at cln.it (Johnny Ruth) Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 04:41:06 -1900 Subject: Need To Know if you Got It 29994 Message-ID: <0000274063f9$00004636$00005d2c@damrak.amsterdam.dataweb.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 8828 bytes Desc: not available URL: From al at qaeda.org Fri Aug 2 08:06:35 2002 From: al at qaeda.org (Optimizzin Al-gorithym) Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 08:06:35 -0700 Subject: modified consoles as disposable nodes Message-ID: <3D4A9FFA.9ED78B88@qaeda.org> At 12:19 PM 8/2/02 +0200, Eugen Leitl wrote: >While useful, they note that the other platforms lack at least one of the >Dreamcast's virtues. "It's innocuous. It looks like a toy," said Davis. >"If you bring it into a company, they're going to go, 'Wow, look at the >toy!'" Damn, first they came for my Furby. Then they came for my Dreamcast. Wait until the Dreamcasters get into stealth casemods.. From jamesd at echeque.com Fri Aug 2 08:26:35 2002 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 08:26:35 -0700 Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3D4A423B.11842.53C4850@localhost> -- On 2 Aug 2002 at 0:36, David Wagner wrote: > For instance, suppose that, thanks to TCPA/Palladium, Microsoft > could design Office 2005 so that it is impossible for StarOffice > and other clones to read files created in Office 2005. Would > some users object? In an anarchic society, or under a government that did not define and defend IP, TCPA/Palladium would probably give roughly the right amount of protection to intellectual property by technical means in place of legal means. Chances are that the thinking behind Palladium is not "Let us sell out to the Hollywood lobby" but rather "Let us make those !@#$$%^& commie chinese pay for their *&^%$##@ software". Of course, in a society with both legal and technical protection of IP, the likely outcome is oppressive artificial monopolies sustained both by technology and state power. I would certainly much prefer TCPA/Palladium in place of existing IP law. What I fear is that instead legislation and technology will each reinforce the other. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG R66NXPp5xZNDYn98jcVqH5q22ikRRFR3evv5xfwF 2PNka92tYm9+/iBKaR+IcOoDA8BwXZlwcPD18Ogw8 From lennd at marketingresearchinternational.com Fri Aug 2 08:37:56 2002 From: lennd at marketingresearchinternational.com (lennd at marketingresearchinternational.com) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 08:37:56 -0700 Subject: ADV: CAN'T WIN WITH HANDS TIED! Message-ID: <200208021536.g72FaSOX022687@ak47.algebra.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3101 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rah at shipwright.com Fri Aug 2 06:56:27 2002 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 09:56:27 -0400 Subject: ZKS Pulls IPO Message-ID: http://www.forbes.com/newswire/2002/08/02/rtr684925.html Internet security firm pulls planned IPO Reuters, 08.02.02, 8:52 AM ET MONTREAL, August 2 (Reuters) - Zero-Knowledge Systems Inc. pulled the plug on Friday on a planned initial public offering, saying it will instead use a recently completed private financing to fund growth for its Internet security software business. Privately held Zero-Knowledge, a high-flyer during the technology boom that attracted heavy media and industry attention, did not disclose the value of the financing. "With the downturn in public market conditions since we began the process of a public offering 10 weeks ago, our investors, management and board of directors no longer felt that raising money in the public markets was the best option," said Chief Executive Tamas Hevizi in a statement. The Montreal-based company said it has signed several important sales in the past six months, including Hewlett-Packard Co. (nyse: HPQ - news - people), Telus Corp. and France Telecom . -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From jamesd at echeque.com Fri Aug 2 10:37:16 2002 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 10:37:16 -0700 Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3D4A60DC.23973.5B3EE2D@localhost> -- On 2 Aug 2002 at 10:43, Trei, Peter wrote: > Since the position argued involves nothing which would invoke > the malign interest of government powers or corporate legal > departments, it's not that. I can only think of two reasons why > our corrospondent may have decided to go undercover... I can think of two innocuous reasons, though the real reason is probably something else altogether: 1. Defending copyright enforcement is extremely unpopular because it seemingly puts you on the side of the hollywood cabal, but in fact TCPA/Paladium, if it works as described, and if it is not integrated with legal enforcement, does not over reach in the fashion that most recent intellectual property legislation, and most recent policy decisions by the patent office over reach. 2.. Legal departments are full of people who are, among their many other grievious faults, technologically illiterate. Therefore when an insider is talking about something, they cannot tell when he is leaking inside information or not, and tend to have kittens, because they have to trust him (being unable to tell if he is leaking information covered by NDA), and are constitutionally incapable of trusting anyone. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG Alf9R2ZVGqWkLhwWX2H6TBqHOunrj2Fbxy+U0ORV 2uPGI4gMDt1fTQkV1820PO3xWmAWPiaS0DqrbmobN --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Fri Aug 2 07:43:21 2002 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 10:43:21 -0400 Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA Message-ID: > Jon Callas[SMTP:jon at callas.org] > > > On 8/1/02 1:14 PM, "Trei, Peter" wrote: > > > So my question is: What is your reason for shielding your identity? > > You do so at the cost of people assuming the worst about your > > motives. > > Is this a tacit way to suggest that the only people who need anonymity or > pseudonymity are those with something to hide? > > Jon > Not really. However, in todays actual environment, this is frequently true that those with something to hide use anonymity. While some people have maintained nyms for many years (I can't think of anyone maintaining explicit stong anonymity right now, actually - remember Sue D. Nym? ), and used them to talk about a variety of issues, it's pretty rare. It's rare enough that when a new anononym appears, we know that the poster made a considered decision to be anonymous. The current poster seems to have parachuted in from nowhere, to argue a specific position on a single topic. It's therefore reasonable to infer that the nature of that position and topic has some bearing on the decision to be anonymous. Since the position argued involves nothing which would invoke the malign interest of government powers or corporate legal departments, it's not that. I can only think of two reasons why our corrospondent may have decided to go undercover... 1. If we know who he/she/them were, it would weaken the argument (for example, by making it clear that the poster has a vested interest in the position maintained, or that 'AARGH! is the group effort of an astroturf campaign). 2. If the true identity of the poster became known, he/she/them fears some kind of retribution: * The ostracism and detestation of his peers. * The boycotting of his employer. * His employer objecting to his wasting company time on Internet mailing lists. Our corrospondent has not given us any reason not to infer the worst motives. This is, after all, a discipline where paranoia and suspicion are job requirements. Peter Trei Disclaimer: The above represents my private , personal opinions only; do not misconstrue them to represent the opinions of others. --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From eresrch at eskimo.com Fri Aug 2 10:49:07 2002 From: eresrch at eskimo.com (Mike Rosing) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 10:49:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Aug 2002, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > To deal with the tiny bit of truth in the claims of AARG! that some > capabilities of DRM might be beneficial to me: Yes, of coures, there are > few things that have zero benefits. But this is hardly relevant. A more > relevant question here is: Can we get the benefits in a better way? And of > course, we can. For the purposes of this narrow and hypothetical > discussion, DRM might just be considered as a dongle forced on every home > computer in the world. The claims of benefit depend on this dongle being > usable by me to make sure that you do not do certain things with my > program/data when it is running on your computer, e.g., distribute the > movie I send you. Well, why must the dongle be on the whole computer > system? Why cannot it be simply a dongle that goes in a slot in a special > TV screen/speaker system? Now this is a "product"!, why we'll sell 'em the > screens and we'll sell the dongle separately, etc.. Of course, the > Englobulators have no interest in making and selling such dongles. Indeed, > were Phillips to start making and selling such, somehow a legal cause of > action against Phillips would be discovered and the suits would commence. I think this is what it boils down to. If I want a dongle for an arbitrary suite of products I should be able to go to some store and buy it. There's no reason it has to be built into the motherboard. the Microsoft X-box can have a built in dongle chip, it's purpose is to ensure that only MS certified games run on the box. I don't see any problem with that. And I don't see any problem with Hollywood (or Bollywood either) selling HDTV's with their own dongles. As an argument to congress we need to stress that TCP's are fine as isolated devices for specific purposes. There is *NO NEED* to make general purpose computers TCP's. Where there is a market for TCP's, I'd expect companies to want the ability to put their own keys into the dongle, not some outside manufacturer who they might not trust. TCP's and DRM is useful to some people, and those people should be able to buy it. But there's really no need to force it on everyone, and that's the point we need to get congress to understand. Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike From jays at panix.com Fri Aug 2 08:25:56 2002 From: jays at panix.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 11:25:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA In-Reply-To: <9956F8424795D411B03B0008C786E60D09EA42FF@dubntex005.qwest. net> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Aug 2002, Wall, Kevin wrote: > First off, let me say that in general, I am against almost everything > that the DCMA stands for and am no fan of DRM either. But I do think that > we will lose credibility if we can't substantiate our claims, and part of > that means recognizing and acknowledging what appears to be legitimate > claims from the TCPA side. Please forgive me for being too short in my indication of what a better longer response from me would look like, which better longer response I hope to include in a formal submission to the Department of Commerce taskforce on DRM. There is nothing to be said in favor of DRM. DRM is simply the name for the system under which the Englobulators would have root on every home and small business computer on Earth. ad propaganda: If we admit the principle that it is reasonable to outlaw the sale of computers to individuals and to outlaw the private use of computers, we place ourselves in a false posture, and a strategically weaker position. The present situation is not that of twenty-five years ago when the VCR was coming to be used in private homes. The struggles of those days were about trammels on limited purpose devices. DRM is not one trammel on a limited device, nor is it even a set of trammels on several differtent special purpose devices. In the above paragraph I use the word "computer" to mean computers of the sort we have today, that is, computers which have no wiretaps and no remote control machinery in them. ad my repeated rhetorical question "Claimed advantage to me here?": It was an error of rhetoric to put these questions in my response to AAARG!. These questions require consideration of indirect effects, which may only be roughly estimated, if we wish to be precise at the two nines level. But in each case, when one runs down the game/rhetoric tree, one sees that there is never any benefit to me in the claimed useful-to-all capabilities of DRM. I will not be able to force my wiretaps and my remote controls on RIAA-MPAA-AAP. As pointed out, section 4.12 of the Final Report of the BPDG, simply specifies that, when DRM is forced on the world, Englobulator machines will have no TCPA/Palladium/wiretaps/remote-controls in them. To deal with the tiny bit of truth in the claims of AARG! that some capabilities of DRM might be beneficial to me: Yes, of coures, there are few things that have zero benefits. But this is hardly relevant. A more relevant question here is: Can we get the benefits in a better way? And of course, we can. For the purposes of this narrow and hypothetical discussion, DRM might just be considered as a dongle forced on every home computer in the world. The claims of benefit depend on this dongle being usable by me to make sure that you do not do certain things with my program/data when it is running on your computer, e.g., distribute the movie I send you. Well, why must the dongle be on the whole computer system? Why cannot it be simply a dongle that goes in a slot in a special TV screen/speaker system? Now this is a "product"!, why we'll sell 'em the screens and we'll sell the dongle separately, etc.. Of course, the Englobulators have no interest in making and selling such dongles. Indeed, were Phillips to start making and selling such, somehow a legal cause of action against Phillips would be discovered and the suits would commence. oo--JS. > > Having said that, let me plunge right in and proceed to mark a complete > fool of myself. Besides, so what if another hundred spambots harvest > my e-mail address for breast enlargement ads (stupid spambots--think > they could at least use my name to determine my sex and send me the > herbal Viagra ads instead. ;-) > > Note that I'm interpreting Jay's reiterated question of > "Claimed advantage to me here?" in the more general sense of > advantage to anyone rather than to Jay personally. Not knowing > him, the latter would be a rather difficult assessment to make. > > So, on with it already. Open mouth, insert foot... (yumm.. > filet of sole)... > > Jay Sulzberger writes... > > > On Thu, 1 Aug 2002, AARG!Anonymous wrote: > > > > > Eric Murray writes: > > > > TCPA (when it isn't turned off) WILL restrict the software that you > > > > can run. Software that has an invalid or missing signature won't be > > > > able to access "sensitive data"[1]. Meaning that unapproved software > > > > won't work. > > > > > > > > [1] TCPAmain_20v1_1a.pdf, section 2.2 > > > > > > We need to look at the text of this in more detail. This is from > > > version 1.1b of the spec: > > > > > > : This section introduces the architectural aspects of a Trusted > > > : Platform that enable the collection and reporting of integrity > > > : metrics. > > > : > > > : Among other things, a Trusted Platform enables an entity to > > > : determine the state of the software environment in that platform > > > : and to SEAL data to a particular software environment in that > > > : platform. > > > > > > Claimed advantage to me here? > > If you produce copyrighted materials that you don't want others to > illegal copy, it can protect your assets. Might also be useful in > protecting state secrets, but general crypto is sufficient for > that. (Don't need it at the hardware level unless you are worried > that some TLA gov't agency is out to get you.) > > The advantage depends on one whether is a producer of goods, or merely > a consumer. I shall not make a judgement call as to which is more > important. Suffice it to say that both need each other. > > [more from TCPA spec] > > > : > > > : The entity deduces whether the state of the computing environment in > > > : that platform is acceptable and performs some transaction with that > > > : platform. If that transaction involves sensitive data that must be > > > : stored on the platform, the entity can ensure that that data is held > > > : in a confidential format unless the state of the computing environment > > > : in that platform is acceptable to the entity. > > > > Claimed advantage to me here? > > One could use this to detect virus infected systems, systems infected > with root kits, etc., could they not? Also, ones alluded to above > come to mind. > > > > : > > > : To enable this, a Trusted Platform provides information to enable > > > : the entity to deduce the software environment in a Trusted Platform. > > > : That information is reliably measured and reported to the entity. > > > : At the same time, a Trusted Platform provides a means to encrypt > > > : cryptographic keys and to state the software environment that must > > > : be in place before the keys can be decrypted. > > > > > > What this means is that a remote system can query the local TPM and > > > find out what software has been loaded, in order to decide whether to > > > send it some data. It's not that unapproved software "won't work", > > > it's that the remote guy can decide whether to trust it. > > > > Claimed advantage to me here? > > Well, here's one place that I can see a potential value to consumers. > I've thought a lot about how one can secure peer-to-peer (P2P) systems. > > Sure, if I want to allow my box be a P2P host, I can use a sandboxing > technique to control and restrict (at least in theory) what rights I > give other programs to run. [I'm think of a sense similar to the Java > sandbox used for running applets.] > > However, the more interesting, and I believe more challenging piece is > what guarentees can you give *ME* as a user of P2P services if I design > some important code that I wish to utilize some generic P2P service. > Unless I want to pay specific services for a P2P or grid computing from > some company that I might happen to trust, be it IBM, HP, or whomever, > I'll probably use some (future?) P2P services that are open sourced freeware > that typical home users might host out of the generosity of their hearts > (whereby they allow others to use some of their spare cycles). While this > is all well and good, my level of trust would likely not be at the same > level it would be if I paid a company to use their services. The feeling > being if I buy a service from a reputable company and they intentionally > do something malicious such as steal private data, etc. I can haul their > butts to court. No such luck when dealing with the faceless masses. > Bottom line seems to be that you get what you pay for. In particular, > I'd be afraid that a few rogues might intentionally try to screw up > my calculations giving me bad results or run a debugger and examine my > data while it is unencrypted for some short part of the calculation, > etc. How do I prevent that? Well, I don't think that it can necessarilly > be PREVENTED, but all I really need to do is detect it...preferably > before hand. > > Thus it would seem that giving the ability of a remote system to > query a particular system's local TPM to see whether it is "trustworthy" > (by whatever criteria that *I* decide) is just what the doctor ordered > in this case. > > Or am I missing something here? Without this, I don't see how I would > ever trust all the faceless masses P2P network for anything remotely > critical or sensitive to me. > > > > Also, as stated earlier, data can be sealed such that it can only be > > > unsealed when the same environment is booted. This is the part above > > > about encrypting cryptographic keys and making sure the right software > > > environment is in place when they are decrypted. > > > > Claimed advantage to me here? > > > > Your turn. My little fingers are getting weary. Someone else take it from > here. > > > > > Ok, technically it will run but can't access the data, > > > > but that it a very fine hair to split, and depending on the nature > > > > of the data that it can't access, it may not be able to run in truth. > > > > > > > > If TCPA allows all software to run, it defeats its purpose. > > > > Therefore Wagner's statement is logically correct. > > > > > > But no, the TCPA does allow all software to run. Just because a > > remote > > > system can decide whether to send it some data doesn't mean that > > software > > > can't run. And just because some data may be inaccessible because it > > > was sealed when another OS was booted, also doesnt mean that software > > > can't run. > > > > Claimed advantage to me here? > > > > I think that we had better define our terms here. What does it mean > for a program to "run". I think most of us would hold that we mean > that it executes in a way that provides the normal and generally > expected functionality. Which would mean that if I put in my own > copy of a audio CD that I burned for a backout copy, it should play > the audio CD without any loss of quality rather than telling me that > I have a pirated copy and that it's going to report me to MPAA or RIAA. > > However, I'm not going into any advantages or disadvantages. > For the most part, I agree with Ross and David not because what > they state necessarily is the intent of the TCPA or Palladium > today, but because I believe that in general both humans and > therefore human corporations are in essence greedy and seedy > (not necessarily in that order). > > Of course, I have to add that I speak for myself (most of the time; > sometimes my lips just move but some other voices come out ;) rather > than for my company. Etc. > > -kevin wall From rah at shipwright.com Fri Aug 2 08:43:39 2002 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 11:43:39 -0400 Subject: ZKS Pulls IPO In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020802100317.01ab92f0@mail.well.com> References: <5.1.1.6.0.20020802100317.01ab92f0@mail.well.com> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 10:03 AM -0400 on 8/2/02, Somebody wrote: > Wow. > > Why am I not surprised? Yup. The rubble still bounces, though there are bits of grass poking through. I'm getting queries about stuff from perfect strangers, mostly researchers, for the first time in 7-8 months, reminiscent, for all the world, of 1994/5. It's pretty nice, if there wasn't so much, well, rubble, all around. Of course, in 1994/5 we were coming out of the rubble of a recession and crummy market. So, the public markets aren't a piggy bank for "bright" ideas anymore, certainly, if they ever should have been. Certainly not as they're currently organized, anyway. Maybe someday, when transaction costs are *much* lower. And, speaking of private equity bailouts of ostensibly public deals, I got yelled at by a fairly clueful venture cap friend this spring when I suggested that creating a low-cost efficient secondary market for private equity was getting much easier, would almost certainly happen, and sooner or later would blur the line between private and public equity. But, as Rodney Thayer always said, when someone with a clue yells at you, you're probably right. If course, what actually made the guy yell was when I suggested that that secondary market be done in unsponsored network bearer depository receipts. That would be, well, just, *wrong*, dammit. ;-). -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 7.5 iQA/AwUBPUqoXsPxH8jf3ohaEQLF6wCfb0skJpM08IavistF87WkTwIdhDkAn18r XgXjcP5dF10lk4QoYH3G+2LA =kITY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From eugen at leitl.org Fri Aug 2 03:19:02 2002 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 12:19:02 +0200 (CEST) Subject: modified consoles as disposable nodes Message-ID: Looks useful for P2P infrastructure. http://online.securityfocus.com/news/558 When Dreamcasts Attack White hat hackers use game consoles, handheld PCs to crack networks from the inside out. By Kevin Poulsen, Jul 31 2002 5:26PM LAS VEGAS--Cyberpunks will be toting cheap game consoles on their utility belts this fall if they follow the lead of a pair of white hat hackers who demonstrated Wednesday how to turn the defunct Sega Dreamcast into a disposable attack box designed to be dropped like a bug on corporate networks during covert black bag jobs. The "phone home" technique presented by Aaron Higbee of Foundstone and Chris Davis from RedSiren Technologies at the Black Hat Briefings here takes advantage of the fact that firewalls effective in blocking entry into a private network, are generally permissive in allowing connections the other way around. Higbee and Davis perform penetration tests, and developed their game box cum attack tool after finding themselves more than once with physical access to a client's facilities -- posing as an employee in once case, crawling through a drop ceiling in another -- but without a way to leverage that access into remote control of the company's network. "It's not that hard to get into an organization for one or two minutes," said Higbee. They chose the Dreamcast for its small size, availability of an Ethernet adapter, and affordability -- the console was discontinued last year, and now sells used for under $100 on eBay. Loaded with custom Linux-based software and covertly plugged into a spare network port under a desk or above a ceiling, the harmless-looking toy becomes the enemy within, probing the company firewall for a way out to Internet. The box cycles through the ports used for common services like SSH, Web surfing, and e-mail, which tend to be permitted by firewall configurations. Failing that, it tries getting "ping" packets out to the Internet, and finally looks for proxy servers bridging the network to the outside world. Whatever it finds, it uses to establish a tunnel through the firewall to the intruder's home machine. "Most organizations focus on the perimeter," said Davis. "Once you get through the outside, there's a soft chewy center." The pair suggested some techniques for mitigating the risk of dropped-in hardware -- restricting the LAN to pre-assigned MAC addresses, for one -- but said that ultimately, there may be little an organization can do to prevent an attacker with physical access from setting up a covert channel home. The pair plan to release their Dreamcast software on their website next month, along with similar code they developed for the handheld Compaq iPAQ, and a bootable CD ROM designed to be slipped into print servers and other kiosk PCs. While useful, they note that the other platforms lack at least one of the Dreamcast's virtues. "It's innocuous. It looks like a toy," said Davis. "If you bring it into a company, they're going to go, 'Wow, look at the toy!'" From bks10 at CORNELL.EDU Fri Aug 2 05:10:09 2002 From: bks10 at CORNELL.EDU (bks10) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 14:10:09 +0200 (CEST) Subject: And disallow inbound packet destined to port Message-ID: <20020802121009.1EBD01FC7@digi.army.sk> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: unnamed.html Type: text/html Size: 113 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: a.FIXED-554.htm Type: text/html Size: 605 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ms-proxy2_0-attack.txt Type: application/octet-stream Size: 1362 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mortgage4u116 at aol.com Sat Aug 3 01:13:58 2002 From: mortgage4u116 at aol.com (REBA) Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 14:13:58 -1800 Subject: lowest rate mortgage EVTNF Message-ID: <000069be61ba$00005dde$0000462c@mailin-02.mx.aol.com> Relating to Dare to Compare! Do you have the LOWEST Mortgage rate available? * Compare our rates. * No obligation. * Search hundreds of lenders instantly. * Free qoutes. * ALL Credit Accepted. A,B and subprime! One thing we all know, rates won't stay this low forever. Search now: http://nu01qaFFrq at mortgage-tree.com/ml.htm Unlist; http://NU1DUE8yeQ at mortgage-tree.com/ml.htm From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Fri Aug 2 11:36:32 2002 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 14:36:32 -0400 Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA Message-ID: > AARG! Anonymous[SMTP:remailer at aarg.net] writes [...] > Now, there is an optional function which does use the manufacturer's key, > but it is intended only to be used rarely. That is for when you need to > transfer your sealed data from one machine to another (either because you > have bought a new machine, or because your old one crashed). In this > case you go through a complicated procedure that includes encrypting > some data to the TPME key (the TPM manufacturer's key) and sending it > to the manufacturer, who massages the data such that it can be loaded > into the new machine's TPM chip. > > So this function does require pre-loading a manufacturer key into the > TPM, but first, it is optional, and second, it frankly appears to be so > cumbersome that it is questionable whether manufacturers will want to > get involved with it. OTOH it is apparently the only way to recover > if your system crashes. This may indicate that TCPA is not feasible, > because there is too much risk of losing locked data on a machine crash, > and the recovery procedure is too cumbersome. That would be a valid > basis on which to criticize TCPA, but it doesn't change the fact that > many of the other claims which have been made about it are not correct. [...] While I reserve the right to respond to the rest of the poster's letter, I'd like to call out this snippet, which gives a very good reason for both corporate and individual users to avoid TCPA as if it were weaponized anthrax (Hi NSA!). ... OK, It's 2004, I'm an IT Admin, and I've converted my corporation over to TCPA/Palladium machines. My Head of Marketing has his TCPA/Palladium desktop's hard drive jam-packed with corporate confidential documents he's been actively working on - sales projections, product plans, pricing schemes. They're all sealed files. His machine crashes - the MB burns out. He wants to recover the data. HoM: I want to recover my data. Me: OK: We'll pull the HD, and get the data off it. HoM: Good - mount it as a secondary HD in my new system. Me: That isn't going to work now we have TCPA and Palladium. HoM: Well, what do you have to do? Me: Oh, it's simple. We encrypt the data under Intel's TPME key, and send it off to Intel. Since Intel has all the keys, they can unseal all your data to plaintext, copy it, and then re-seal it for your new system. It only costs $1/Mb. HoM: Let me get this straight - the only way to recover this data is to let Intel have a copy, AND pay them for it? Me: Um... Yes. I think MS might be involved as well, if your were using Word. HoM: You are *so* dead. --------------------------- Peter Trei --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From jays at panix.com Fri Aug 2 11:36:38 2002 From: jays at panix.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 14:36:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA In-Reply-To: <3D4A60DC.23973.5B3EE2D@localhost> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Aug 2002, James A. Donald wrote: > -- > On 2 Aug 2002 at 10:43, Trei, Peter wrote: > > Since the position argued involves nothing which would invoke > > the malign interest of government powers or corporate legal > > departments, it's not that. I can only think of two reasons why > > our corrospondent may have decided to go undercover... > > I can think of two innocuous reasons, though the real reason is > probably something else altogether: > > 1. Defending copyright enforcement is extremely unpopular because > it seemingly puts you on the side of the hollywood cabal, but in > fact TCPA/Paladium, if it works as described, and if it is not > integrated with legal enforcement, does not over reach in the > fashion that most recent intellectual property legislation, and > most recent policy decisions by the patent office over reach. a. TCPA/Palladium must be integrated with laws which give to the Englobulators absolute legal cudgel powers, such as the DMCA. So far I have not seen any proposal by the Englobulators to repeal the DMCA and cognate laws, so if TCPA/Palladium is imposed, the DMCA will be used, just as HP threatened to use it a couple of days ago. And, of course, today there is no imposed TCPA/Palladium, so the situation will be much worse when there is. b. Why must TCPA/Palladium be a dongle on the whole computer? Why not a separate dongle? Because, of course, the Englobulators proceed here on principle. The principle being that only the Englobulators have a right to own printing presses/music studios/movie and animation studios. > > 2.. Legal departments are full of people who are, among their > many other grievious faults, technologically illiterate. > Therefore when an insider is talking about something, they cannot > tell when he is leaking inside information or not, and tend to > have kittens, because they have to trust him (being unable to tell > if he is leaking information covered by NDA), and are > constitutionally incapable of trusting anyone. > > --digsig There is a business, not yet come into existence, of providing standard crypto services to law offices. oo--JS. --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From jamesd at echeque.com Fri Aug 2 14:53:48 2002 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 14:53:48 -0700 Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3D4A9CFC.22726.69ECD4C@localhost> -- On 2 Aug 2002 at 14:36, Trei, Peter wrote: > OK, It's 2004, I'm an IT Admin, > and I've converted my corporation over to TCPA/Palladium machines. My > Head of Marketing has his TCPA/Palladium desktop's hard drive > jam-packed with corporate confidential documents he's been actively > working on - sales projections, product plans, pricing schemes. > They're all sealed files. > > His machine crashes - the MB burns out. > He wants to recover the data. > > HoM: I want to recover my data. > Me: OK: We'll pull the HD, and get the data off it. > HoM: Good - mount it as a secondary HD in my new system. > Me: That isn't going to work now we have TCPA and Palladium. > HoM: Well, what do you have to do? > Me: Oh, it's simple. We encrypt the data under Intel's TPME key, > and send it off to Intel. Since Intel has all the keys, they can > unseal all your data to plaintext, copy it, and then re-seal it for > your new system. It only costs $1/Mb. > HoM: Let me get this straight - the only way to recover this data is > to let > Intel have a copy, AND pay them for it? > Me: Um... Yes. I think MS might be involved as well, if your were > using > Word. > HoM: You are *so* dead. Obviously it is insane to use keys that you do not yourself control to keep secrets. That, however, is not the purpose of TCPA/Palladium as envisaged by Microsoft. The intent is that Peter can sell Paul software or content that will only run on ONE computer for ONE time period.. When the motherboard emits blue smoke, or the time runs out, whichever happens first, Paul has to buy new software. If prices are lowered accordingly, this might be acceptable. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG 4Mqj1ia6DD0EYpdLMEd7al35eTYefnvhcFesBlMz 25n9obdfhvRVxEkY4YtWw7BuFxrOKgTtfI1Dp8uAA From acqudrugs at paris.com Fri Aug 2 15:05:21 2002 From: acqudrugs at paris.com (Prescription online) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 15:05:21 -0700 Subject: Buy Drugs Online Phentermine (Weight Loss) cypherpunks@minder.net wihri Message-ID: <200208022205.g72M50J43039@locust.minder.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 6867 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mmotyka at lsil.com Fri Aug 2 14:12:35 2002 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka) Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 15:12:35 -0600 Subject: Open source Vs palladium-Social darwinism Vs Mutual aid? Message-ID: <3D4AF5C3.1567E544@lsil.com> Matthew X wrote : > > Possibly no connection,its late in the day here...I can feel a 'regime > change' coming > on...http://www.infoshop.org/inews/stories.php?story=02/08/01/5792459 > ""The views you have acquired about Darwinism, evolution, and the struggle > for existence won't explain to you the meaning of your life and won't give > you guidance in your actions, and a life without an explanation of its > meaning and importance, and without the unfailing guidance that stems from > it is a pitiful existence. Think about it. I say it, probably on the eve of > my death, because I love you." > Tolstoy. > Frightened words of a dying man suffering from reality overload. From remailer at aarg.net Fri Aug 2 15:30:03 2002 From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 15:30:03 -0700 Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA Message-ID: Peter Trei writes: > It's rare enough that when a new anononym appears, we know > that the poster made a considered decision to be anonymous. > > The current poster seems to have parachuted in from nowhere, > to argue a specific position on a single topic. It's therefore > reasonable to infer that the nature of that position and topic has > some bearing on the decision to be anonymous. Yes, my name is "AARG!". That was the first thing my mother said after I was born, and the name stuck. Not really. For Peter's information, the name associated with a message through an anonymous remailer is simply the name of the last remailer in the chain, whatever that remailer operator chose to call it. AARG is a relatively new remailer, but if you look at http://anon.efga.org/Remailers/TypeIIList you will see that it is very reliable and fast. I have been using it as an exit remailer lately because other ones that I have used often produce inconsistent results. It has not been unusual to have to send a message two or three times before it appears. So far that has not been a problem with this one. So don't read too much into the fact that a bunch of anonymous postings have suddenly started appearing from one particular remailer. For your information, I have sent over 400 anonymous messages in the past year to cypherpunks, coderpunks, sci.crypt and the cryptography list (35 of them on TCPA related topics). From remailer at aarg.net Fri Aug 2 16:56:42 2002 From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG!Anonymous) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 16:56:42 -0700 Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA Message-ID: <39eb7c2e6804b1854dffb31bfa307865@aarg.net> Peter Trei envisions data recovery in a TCPA world: > HoM: I want to recover my data. > Me: OK: We'll pull the HD, and get the data off it. > HoM: Good - mount it as a secondary HD in my new system. > Me: That isn't going to work now we have TCPA and Palladium. > HoM: Well, what do you have to do? > Me: Oh, it's simple. We encrypt the data under Intel's TPME key, > and send it off to Intel. Since Intel has all the keys, they can > unseal all your data to plaintext, copy it, and then re-seal it for > your new system. It only costs $1/Mb. > HoM: Let me get this straight - the only way to recover this data is > to let > Intel have a copy, AND pay them for it? > Me: Um... Yes. I think MS might be involved as well, if your were > using > Word. > HoM: You are *so* dead. It's not quite as bad as all this, but it is still pretty bad. You don't have to send your data to Intel, just a master storage key. This key encrypts the other keys which encrypt your data. Normally this master key never leaves your TPM, but there is this optional feature where it can be backed up, encrypted to the manufacturer's public key, for recovery purposes. I think it is also in blinded form. Obviously you'd need to do this backup step before the TPM crashed; afterwards is too late. So maybe when you first get your system it generates the on-chip storage key (called the SRK, storage root key), and then exports the recovery blob. You'd put that on a floppy or some other removable medium and store it somewhere safe. Then when your system dies you pull out the disk and get the recovery blob. You communicate with the manufacturer, give him this recovery blob, along with the old TPM key and the key to your new TPM in the new machine. The manufacturer decrypts the blob and re-encrypts it to the TPM in the new machine. It also issues and distributes a CRL revoking the cert on the old TPM key so that the old machine can't be used to access remote TCPA data any more. (Note, the CRL is not used by the TPM itself, it is just used by remote servers to decide whether to believe client requests.) The manufacturer sends the data back to you and you load it into the TPM in your new machine, which decrypts it and stores the master storage key. Now it can read your old data. Someone asked if you'd have to go through all this if you just upgraded your OS. I'm not sure. There are several secure registers on the TPM, called PCRs, which can hash different elements of the BIOS, OS, and other software. You can lock a blob to any one of these registers. So in some circumstances it might be that upgrading the OS would keep the secure data still available. In other cases you might have to go through some kind of recovery procedure. I think this recovery business is a real Achilles heel of the TCPA and Palladium proposals. They are paranoid about leaking sealed data, because the whole point is to protect it. So they can't let you freely copy it to new machines, or decrypt it from an insecure OS. This anal protectiveness is inconsistent with the flexibility needed in an imperfect world where stuff breaks. My conclusion is that the sealed storage of TCPA will be used sparingly. Ross Anderson and others suggest that Microsoft Word will seal all of its documents so that people can't switch to StarOffice. I think that approach would be far too costly and risky, given the realities I have explained above. Instead, I would expect that only highly secure data would be sealed, and that there would often be some mechanism to recover it from elsewhere. For example, in a DRM environment, maybe the central server has a record of all the songs you have downloaded. Then if your system crashes, rather than go through a complicated crypto protocol to recover, you just buy a new machine, go to the server, and re-download all the songs you were entitled to. Or in a closed environment, like a business which seals sensitive documents, the data could be backed up redundantly to multiple central file servers, each of which seal it. Then if one machine crashes, the data is available from others and there is no need to go through the recovery protocol. So there are solutions, but they will add complexity and cost. At the same time they do add genuine security and value. Each application and market will have to find its own balance of the costs and benefits. --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From AlbionZeglin at Total-Security.com Fri Aug 2 14:29:42 2002 From: AlbionZeglin at Total-Security.com (Albion Zeglin) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 17:29:42 -0400 Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA Message-ID: <1028323782.3d4af9c6b69a5@mail.spamcop.net> Quoting Jay Sulzberger : > b. Why must TCPA/Palladium be a dongle on the whole computer? Why not a > separate dongle? Because, of course, the Englobulators proceed here on > principle. The principle being that only the Englobulators have a right to > own printing presses/music studios/movie and animation studios. > A separate dongle can't verify the integrity of the processor. The important part is that the processor's state (including initial RAM load) is verifiable. Without this the OS could be virtualized and modified after the integrity check. Just imagine running Windows Media Player on a virtual machine, trapping the calls to the audio card and thus being able to copy content perfectly. A dongle can't prevent this. Eventually for TCPA to be effective against hardware hacks such as memory probes, not only will the harddrive storage be sealed, but RAM must be sealed as well. Once TCPA moves onprocessor, I expect encrypted RAM will be next. Albion. From rsedc at atlantic.gse.rmit.edu.au Fri Aug 2 00:35:41 2002 From: rsedc at atlantic.gse.rmit.edu.au (rsedc at atlantic.gse.rmit.edu.au) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 17:35:41 +1000 Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA In-Reply-To: <21c2b1fa881cdf27375fb175816f2ef0@aarg.net>; from AARG! Anonymous on Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 03:35:32PM -0700 References: <21c2b1fa881cdf27375fb175816f2ef0@aarg.net> Message-ID: <20020802173541.A20075@atlantic.gse.rmit.edu.au> On Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 03:35:32PM -0700, AARG! Anonymous wrote: > Declan McCullagh writes at > http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1107-946890.html: > > "The world is moving toward closed digital rights management systems > where you may need approval to run programs," says David Wagner, > an assistant professor of computer science at the University of > California at Berkeley. "Both Palladium and TCPA incorporate features > that would restrict what applications you could run." > > But both Palladium and TCPA deny that they are designed to restrict what > applications you run. The TPM FAQ at > http://www.trustedcomputing.org/docs/TPM_QA_071802.pdf reads, in > answer #1: > > : The TPM can store measurements of components of the user's system, but > : the TPM is a passive device and doesn't decide what software can or > : can't run on a user's system. > > An apparently legitimate but leaked Palladium White Paper at > http://www.neowin.net/staff/users/Voodoo/Palladium_White_Paper_final.pdf > says, on the page shown as number 2: > > : A Palladium-enhanced computer must continue to run any existing > : applications and device drivers. > Can you find anything in this spec that would do what David Wagner says > above, restrict what applications you could run? Despite studying this > spec for many hours, no such feature has been found. > > So here is the challenge to David Wagner, a well known and justifiably > respected computer security expert: find language in the TCPA spec to > back up your claim above, that TCPA will restrict what applications > you can run. Either that, or withdraw the claim, and try to get Declan > McCullagh to issue a correction. (Good luck with that!) 'Applications' as used in Wagner's statement can be actions or computer programs to accomplish the desired tasks for the users/owners. >From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) [web1913]: Application \Ap`pli*ca"tion\, n. [L. applicatio, fr. applicare: cf. F. application. See {Apply}.] 3. The act of applying as a means; the employment of means to accomplish an end; specific use. >From WordNet (r) 1.7 [wn]: 3: a program that gives a computer instructions that provide the user with tools to accomplish a task; Both involve using the term 'accomplish'. Whereas from WordNet (r) 1.7 [wn]: software n : (computer science) written programs or procedures or rules and associated documentation pertaining to the operation of a computer system and that are stored in read/write memory; As you can see, 'application' differs from 'software' in that an 'application' needs to 'accomplish' the desired tasks. If as you said later, On Thu, Aug 01, 2002 at 04:45:15PM -0700, AARG! Anonymous wrote: > But no, the TCPA does allow all software to run. Just because a remote > system can decide whether to send it some data doesn't mean that software > can't run. And just because some data may be inaccessible because it > was sealed when another OS was booted, also doesnt mean that software > can't run. > > I think we agree on the facts, here. All software can run, but the TCPA > allows software to prove its hash to remote parties, and to encrypt data > such that it can't be decrypted by other software. Would you agree that > this is an accurate summary of the functionality, and not misleading? that the desired tasks cannot be accomplished, then the software might run but the 'application' does not. Note the TPM FAQ quoted is correct in using the term 'software' but that is not the term used by Wagner. The sentence where the term 'application' is used in the alleged Palladium White Paper might appear to be self contraditory. Therefore I do not think that Wagner needs to withdraw his claim. David Chia -- What do you call a boomerang that does not come back? A Stick. --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From vyiastrid at msn.com Fri Aug 2 18:24:15 2002 From: vyiastrid at msn.com (becky) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 18:24:15 -0700 Subject: Hey Message-ID: <200208030124.g731OCJ51379@locust.minder.net> ################################ Your Online Pharmacy for Prescription Drugs! ################################ NEWS 08/02/02 Last month over 20,000 new people purchased prescription drugs at our website with our limited time offer. 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Matt Grossman, Manhattan, NY One month after ordering a phentermine prescription at your website I lossed 20 Lbs doing nothing, have more energy and eat less! Thank You! Removal Instructions: This email is intended to be a benefit to the recipient. If you would like to opt-out and not receive any more marketing information please click on the following link http://worldrxco.com/remove.php Your address will be removed within 24hrs. We sincerely apologize for any inconvenience. ytuhmsgsvbyibyefuhpmf From support at id-discussions.com Fri Aug 2 11:42:26 2002 From: support at id-discussions.com (Interesting Devices Discussion Forum Mailer) Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 18:42:26 0000 Subject: Action Required to Activate Membership for Interesting Devices Discussion Forum! Message-ID: <200208021843101.SM00916@idnt698> Dear cypherpunks, Thank you for registering for the Interesting Devices Discussion Forum forums. 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Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2875 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jays at panix.com Fri Aug 2 16:27:09 2002 From: jays at panix.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 19:27:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Aug 2002, Trei, Peter wrote: > > AARG! Anonymous[SMTP:remailer at aarg.net] writes > [...] > > Now, there is an optional function which does use the manufacturer's key, > > but it is intended only to be used rarely. That is for when you need to > > transfer your sealed data from one machine to another (either because you > > have bought a new machine, or because your old one crashed). In this > > case you go through a complicated procedure that includes encrypting > > some data to the TPME key (the TPM manufacturer's key) and sending it > > to the manufacturer, who massages the data such that it can be loaded > > into the new machine's TPM chip. > > > > So this function does require pre-loading a manufacturer key into the > > TPM, but first, it is optional, and second, it frankly appears to be so > > cumbersome that it is questionable whether manufacturers will want to > > get involved with it. OTOH it is apparently the only way to recover > > if your system crashes. This may indicate that TCPA is not feasible, > > because there is too much risk of losing locked data on a machine crash, > > and the recovery procedure is too cumbersome. That would be a valid > > basis on which to criticize TCPA, but it doesn't change the fact that > > many of the other claims which have been made about it are not correct. > [...] > > While I reserve the right to respond to the rest of the poster's letter, > I'd like to call out this snippet, which gives a very good reason > for both corporate and individual users to avoid TCPA as if it were > weaponized anthrax (Hi NSA!). > ... > OK, It's 2004, I'm an IT Admin, and I've converted my corporation > over to TCPA/Palladium machines. My Head of Marketing has his > TCPA/Palladium desktop's hard drive jam-packed with corporate > confidential documents he's been actively working on - sales > projections, product plans, pricing schemes. They're all sealed files. > > His machine crashes - the MB burns out. > He wants to recover the data. > > HoM: I want to recover my data. > Me: OK: We'll pull the HD, and get the data off it. > HoM: Good - mount it as a secondary HD in my new system. > Me: That isn't going to work now we have TCPA and Palladium. > HoM: Well, what do you have to do? > Me: Oh, it's simple. We encrypt the data under Intel's TPME key, > and send it off to Intel. Since Intel has all the keys, they can > unseal all your data to plaintext, copy it, and then re-seal it for > your new system. It only costs $1/Mb. > HoM: Let me get this straight - the only way to recover this data is to > let > Intel have a copy, AND pay them for it? > Me: Um... Yes. I think MS might be involved as well, if your were using > Word. > HoM: You are *so* dead. > > --------------------------- > > Peter Trei I think that many managers in this situation would feel reassured that both Intel and Microsoft would be handling these sensitve documents. Else why do lawyers use Microsoft systems to send unencrypted documents between offices? ad technicalities: Just one more level of indirection^Wencryption would answer the objections of those few managers of exquisite sensibilities, who worry about Intel/Microsoft reading their documents. oo--JS. From jays at panix.com Fri Aug 2 16:47:07 2002 From: jays at panix.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 19:47:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA In-Reply-To: <1028323782.3d4af9c6b69a5@mail.spamcop.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Aug 2002, Albion Zeglin wrote: > Quoting Jay Sulzberger : > > > > b. Why must TCPA/Palladium be a dongle on the whole computer? Why not a > > separate dongle? Because, of course, the Englobulators proceed here on > > principle. The principle being that only the Englobulators have a right to > > own printing presses/music studios/movie and animation studios. > > > > A separate dongle can't verify the integrity of the processor. The > important part is that the processor's state (including initial RAM load) > is verifiable. But if you just want to show movies "securely" you need not use my general purpose and today untrammeled computer. You can either show movies in movie houses, or use some slightly trammeled version of a "cable ready TV", or the variant product mentioned earlier, the "donglified monitor/speaker". There is no need for the MPAA to "verify the integrity of the processor" if all the MPAA wants to do is sell me tickets to movies. > Without this the OS could be virtualized and modified after the integrity > check. What does the enforcement of the laws against copyright infringement have to do with my general purpose and today untrammeled computer? There is no relation of the sort you, and all the mass media, implicitly assume here. Indeed no OS at all should be involved in the "secure showing of movies". It is like using the standard C libraries to write "secure code"! > > Just imagine running Windows Media Player on a virtual machine, trapping > the calls to the audio card and thus being able to copy content > perfectly. A dongle can't prevent this. My donglified monitor/speakers combination, of course, offers greater assurance. Here is part of my argument: the explanation of my proposed protocols can actually be understood. > > Eventually for TCPA to be effective against hardware hacks such as memory > probes, not only will the harddrive storage be sealed, but RAM must be > sealed as well. > Once TCPA moves onprocessor, I expect encrypted RAM will be next. > > Albion. The dilemma "Either give over all the computers in the world to the Englobulators, or never get to see another big budget Hollywood movie." is a false dichotomy. oo--JS. From eresrch at eskimo.com Fri Aug 2 21:10:32 2002 From: eresrch at eskimo.com (Mike Rosing) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 21:10:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA In-Reply-To: <39eb7c2e6804b1854dffb31bfa307865@aarg.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Aug 2002, AARG! Anonymous wrote: > You don't have to send your data to Intel, just a master storage key. > This key encrypts the other keys which encrypt your data. Normally this > master key never leaves your TPM, but there is this optional feature > where it can be backed up, encrypted to the manufacturer's public key, > for recovery purposes. I think it is also in blinded form. In other words, the manufacturer has access to all your data because they have the master storage key. Why would everyone want to give one manufacturer that much power? Or am I missing something... > You communicate with the manufacturer, give him this recovery blob, along > with the old TPM key and the key to your new TPM in the new machine. > The manufacturer decrypts the blob and re-encrypts it to the TPM in the and stores the blob in a safe place for future use. > The manufacturer sends the data back to you and you load it into the TPM > in your new machine, which decrypts it and stores the master storage key. > Now it can read your old data. and so can everyone else who visits the manufacturers database. > I think this recovery business is a real Achilles heel of the TCPA > and Palladium proposals. They are paranoid about leaking sealed data, > because the whole point is to protect it. So they can't let you freely > copy it to new machines, or decrypt it from an insecure OS. This anal > protectiveness is inconsistent with the flexibility needed in an imperfect > world where stuff breaks. Seems like an understatement to me :-) Explaining to every CEO left standing that one company may have access to all their buisness data because congress wants to make TCPA a law could be a very power lobby. > So there are solutions, but they will add complexity and cost. At the > same time they do add genuine security and value. Each application and > market will have to find its own balance of the costs and benefits. Yeah baby, tell them CEO's their costs are going up. That'll definitly help TCPA die quickly. Especially nowadays. Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike From measl at mfn.org Fri Aug 2 19:37:02 2002 From: measl at mfn.org (Alif The Terrible) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 21:37:02 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Aug 2002, AARG! Anonymous wrote: > I have sent over 400 anonymous messages in the past year > to cypherpunks, coderpunks, sci.crypt and the cryptography list (35 > of them on TCPA related topics). I see you are no too worries about traffic analysis? -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From netexcelerator at yahoo.com Sat Aug 3 01:15:14 2002 From: netexcelerator at yahoo.com (AMY) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 01:15:14 Subject: none Message-ID: <200208030821.g738LLR03091@waste.minder.net> Hello, This is a one time mailing. We are looking for people who might be interested in working P/T from home. This position involves working 10-15 hours per week. You can expect to make $15-$25 per hour worked. To see a job description, you may go to http://starttodayandbeginworkingatyourconvience.8m.com Have a great day! From nobody at dizum.com Fri Aug 2 16:40:17 2002 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 01:40:17 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Other uses of TCPA Message-ID: <3d3cb71053e71de0b181ecd56b8ba3a2@dizum.com> I think that people are beginning to understand that TCPA is not a black and white issue. It is neither the overwhelming threat that some activists are describing, nor the panacea that the vendors are selling. It is a technology with strengths and weaknesses. As an exercise, try thinking of ways you could use TCPA to promote "good guy" applications. What could you do in a P2P network if you could trust that all participants were running approved software? And if you could prevent third parties, including hostile governments, from seeing the data being used by that software? You may be surprised to find that if you look at it with an open mind, TCPA could be a tremendous boon to freedom-oriented technologies. From file sharing to crypto protocols to digital cash, TCPA lets you expand the trusted computing base to the entire set of participating machines. It's really a tremendously powerful technology. The biggest problem, ironically, is that TCPA may not be secure enough. It's one thing to make video piracy difficult, it's another matter to keep the Chinese government from prying into the sealed storage. But with future generations of TCPA integrated onto CPUs with improved tamper resistance, it will be much more difficult to defeat the protections. It may turn out that TCPA can significantly facilitate cypherpunk goals. From mortgage_quotes_fast at nationwidemortgage.us Sat Aug 3 00:04:43 2002 From: mortgage_quotes_fast at nationwidemortgage.us (mortgage_quotes_fast at nationwidemortgage.us) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 02:04:43 -0500 Subject: Adv: Mortgage Quotes Fast Online, No Cost Message-ID: <200208030704.g7374hAp002249@ak47.algebra.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4401 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dvdcopyproinstant at cox.net Sat Aug 3 02:14:56 2002 From: dvdcopyproinstant at cox.net (DVD Copy Pro) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 02:14:56 Subject: DVD Copy Pro Instant Download only $9.99! Burn DVD To CD-r! Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 18785 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mortgage_quotes_fast at nationwidemortgage.us Sat Aug 3 00:17:09 2002 From: mortgage_quotes_fast at nationwidemortgage.us (mortgage_quotes_fast at nationwidemortgage.us) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 02:17:09 -0500 Subject: Adv: Mortgage Quotes Fast Online, No Cost Message-ID: <200208030717.CAA32263@einstein.ssz.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4401 bytes Desc: not available URL: From morlockelloi at yahoo.com Sat Aug 3 03:20:13 2002 From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 03:20:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA In-Reply-To: <3D4A9CFC.22726.69ECD4C@localhost> Message-ID: <20020803102013.93930.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com> The principal philosophical issue here is that the ownership of the "computer" terminates. So far most people owned their computers in the sense that they could make transistors inside do anything they liked, provided they had some easily-obtainable knowledge. Content/software vendors had their stuff executed on enemy's territory with all imaginable consequences. TCPA-ed computer is actually a single-seat movie theatre teleported to your house. It's operated and owned by one or more corporations - what you pay when "buying" the computer are up-front installation costs of the franchise. Remember that theatres are enclosed spaces with entertainment with doors that you need a ticket to go through. Sheeple will get more entertainment. The only problem seems to be that small independent producers will not get their stuff played there. Tough shit. If small producers want to fuck with all world's theatres, they need to get better. Parasiting is over. There is no natural right to program other's machines. When I go to the theatre I don't want unwashed activists flashing their stuff on the screen. At least not dumb ones. Ah, the computers. Well, those that want computers will have them. They may not be as cheap as today and there will not be as many of them, but I think that all people *I* deal with will have them, so I don't really care. ===== end (of original message) Y-a*h*o-o (yes, they scan for this) spam follows: Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com From adam at cypherspace.org Fri Aug 2 21:26:12 2002 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 05:26:12 +0100 Subject: info-theoretic model of anonymity Message-ID: <20020803052612.A413999@exeter.ac.uk> Just read this paper published in PET02 "Towards an Information Theoretic Metric for Anonymity" [1]: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~gd216/set.pdf or http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~gd216/set.ps it uses a Shannon like entropy model for the anonymity provided by a system uses this model to analyse the effect of different parameters one can tune with mixmaster (POOLSIZE, RATE, in mixmaster.conf). The "anonymity entropy" measurement can be interpreted as how many bits of information the attacker needs to identify a user and is computed from probabilities. Would be interesting to try estimate the entropy provided by the current mixmaster network. A number of nodes publish their parameter choices, and traffic volume over time (in hourly increments). Adam -- http://www.cypherspace.org/adam/ [1] @inproceedings{Serjantov:02:info-theoretic-anon, author = "Andrei Serjantov and George Danezis", title = "Towards an Information Theoretic Metric for Anonymity", booktitle = "Proceedings of the Workshop on Privacy Enhancing Technologies", year = "2002", note = "Also available as \url{http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~aas23/papers_aas/set.ps}" } From freehqefkfql at jakgym.se Sat Aug 3 06:49:09 2002 From: freehqefkfql at jakgym.se (freehqefkfql at jakgym.se) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 08:49:09 -0500 Subject: Free Porn Password Get Off Now! Message-ID: <1028378949.985@localhost.localdomain> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4371 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jamesd at echeque.com Sat Aug 3 09:10:26 2002 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 09:10:26 -0700 Subject: Other uses of TCPA In-Reply-To: References: <3d3cb71053e71de0b181ecd56b8ba3a2@dizum.com> Message-ID: <3D4B9E02.3999.47D95C@localhost> -- On Sat, 3 Aug 2002, Nomen Nescio wrote: > As an exercise, try thinking of ways you could use TCPA to > promote "good guy" applications. What could you do in a P2P > network if you could trust that all participants were running > approved software? And if you I can only see one application for voluntary TCPA, and that is the application it was designed to perform: Make it possible run software or content which is encrypted so that it will only run on one computer for one time period. All the other proposed uses, both good and evil, seem improbably cumbersome, or easier to do in some other fashion. There are quite a few extremely evil uses it would be good for, but they would only be feasible if enforced by legislation -- otherwise people would turn the chip off, or tear it out. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG Hzs0OpVc+bwQiFEZnMNE2zMLAXiYjMNrOWpH9WIb 2vvlvOjPeQH/ua0E9NnfeVaLvRGnxGuIvKZGcMZdN From eugen at leitl.org Sat Aug 3 00:33:47 2002 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 09:33:47 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Other uses of TCPA In-Reply-To: <3d3cb71053e71de0b181ecd56b8ba3a2@dizum.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Aug 2002, Nomen Nescio wrote: > I think that people are beginning to understand that TCPA is not a > black and white issue. It is neither the overwhelming threat that some > activists are describing, nor the panacea that the vendors are selling. > It is a technology with strengths and weaknesses. No, TCPA is a technology with a potential for abuse, and there's certainly a strong economic and political drive to abuse it. As such it is simply not acceptable. I don't want this particular camel in my tent, thankyouverymuch. > As an exercise, try thinking of ways you could use TCPA to promote "good > guy" applications. What could you do in a P2P network if you could > trust that all participants were running approved software? And if you Approved by whom? There's a secret embedded into the CPU and/or chipset. I can't read it out. It was either generated within (so it can't be shared), or the vendor put it there (and kept a copy of it), or the signed code which is trusted by original vendor put it there. If you can read out a secret, and the system destroys it internal copy, you can still clone it into as many systems as you want, as long as it doesn't go pass through some Dark Tower in Mordor somewhere. Why should I trust the vendor with any of this? I don't even trust the vendor with what he puts into his BIOS. If I need secure encryption, I can put crypto into a deep embedded in a USB fob, or a smartcard, or buy some open hardware from a trusted source. If it needs high throughput, you could package it into a PCI card (and please put the secret into a removable dongle). > could prevent third parties, including hostile governments, from seeing > the data being used by that software? You may be surprised to find that You don't need big brother hardware to prevent participants from accessing the content directly. If the content is fragmented into encrypted slivers somebody else has the key for (insert onions for extra paranoia) you have no idea what is on your hard drive. The content only magically materializes on a single node when you try to access it. It comes from/passing through nodes you sure see the addresses, but these change. Both because the content moves or gets routed differently, and the nodes are largely on dynamic IPs. > if you look at it with an open mind, TCPA could be a tremendous boon to > freedom-oriented technologies. From file sharing to crypto protocols > to digital cash, TCPA lets you expand the trusted computing base to How does TCPA help you with double spending your tokens? I understand no reliable solutions without centralism exist. We should definitely aiming for something inspired by ecology (crunch being the equivalent of sunlight). > the entire set of participating machines. It's really a tremendously > powerful technology. I'd rather not have tremendously powerful technology standing under somebody's else's control sitting under my desk. > The biggest problem, ironically, is that TCPA may not be secure enough. > It's one thing to make video piracy difficult, it's another matter to keep > the Chinese government from prying into the sealed storage. But with How is the Chinese government/CoS/anybody else going to pry into a document that is encrypted on an air-gapped machine (secret stashed away elsewhere), and stored on a secure (a few iterations of MNet or similiar) P2P network? Assuming, I was nice enough to tell them the URI for it? How is the Chinese government going to effectively prevent people accessing content on a steganographic P2P network? Why, with something very like TCPA: by outlawing all purpose computers but those running code approved by an authority. > future generations of TCPA integrated onto CPUs with improved tamper > resistance, it will be much more difficult to defeat the protections. Are you somehow assuming you can magically protect state of structured matter encoding a shared (with many, many copies out there) from being read by people with basically unlimited resources? > It may turn out that TCPA can significantly facilitate cypherpunk goals. From newsusercypher_18 at driverlicense.com Sat Aug 3 09:43:33 2002 From: newsusercypher_18 at driverlicense.com (newsusercypher_18 ) Date: Sat, 03 Aug 02 09:43:33 E. 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STILL GETTING MAIL EVEN AFTER REQUESTING REMOVAL? Remember to include in the subject line the addresses your received this message. Any Vulgarity will be filtered and your request for removal will be deleted, so don't bother in vain ! Thank you for listening, Bulkers Warehouse! From tcmay at got.net Sat Aug 3 09:56:26 2002 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 09:56:26 -0700 Subject: Other uses of TCPA In-Reply-To: <3D4B9E02.3999.47D95C@localhost> Message-ID: On Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 09:10 AM, James A. Donald wrote: > -- > On Sat, 3 Aug 2002, Nomen Nescio wrote: >> As an exercise, try thinking of ways you could use TCPA to >> promote "good guy" applications. What could you do in a P2P >> network if you could trust that all participants were running >> approved software? And if you > > I can only see one application for voluntary TCPA, and that is the > application it was designed to perform: Make it possible run > software or content which is encrypted so that it will only run on > one computer for one time period. > > All the other proposed uses, both good and evil, seem improbably > cumbersome, or easier to do in some other fashion. There are > quite a few extremely evil uses it would be good for, but they > would only be feasible if enforced by legislation -- otherwise > people would turn the chip off, or tear it out. "The VSPA (Video Surveillance Protection Architecture) is a completely voluntary arrangement whereby video cameras must be installed by 2003 in all new and remodeled homes, apartments, places of business, libraries, and other such places. These cameras and microphones can be used voluntarily by parents and other concerned persons to monitor children, pets, and domestic workers. 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Under Bill s 1618 TITLE III Passed by the 105th U.S. Congress this letter can NOT be considered "SPAM" as long as we include contact information & or a remove device as follows 1) CLICK ON Contact ME tab of my web page, leave your email address to be removed. OR 2) Call the above toll free line & leave your email to be removed. From remailer at aarg.net Sat Aug 3 10:55:19 2002 From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 10:55:19 -0700 Subject: Privacy-enhancing uses for TCPA Message-ID: Here are some alternative applications for TCPA/Palladium technology which could actually promote privacy and freedom. A few caveats, though: they do depend on a somewhat idealized view of the architecture. It may be that real hardware/software implementations are not sufficiently secure for some of these purposes, but as systems become better integrated and more technologically sound, this objection may go away. And these applications do assume that the architecture is implemented without secret backdoors or other intentional flaws, which might be guaranteed through an open design process and manufacturing inspections. Despite these limitations, hopefully these ideas will show that TCPA and Palladium actually have many more uses than the heavy-handed and control-oriented ones which have been discussed so far. To recap, there are basically two technologies involved. One is "secure attestation". This allows machines to securely receive a hash of the software which is running remotely. It is used in these examples to know that a trusted client program is running on the remote machine. The other is "secure storage". This allows programs to encrypt data in such a way that no other program can decrypt it. In addition, we assume that programs are able to run "unmolested"; that is, that other software and even the user cannot peek into the program's memory and manipulate it or learn its secrets. Palladium has a feature called "trusted space" which is supposed to be some special memory that is immune from being compromised. We also assume that all data sent between computers is encrypted using something like SSL, with the secret keys being held securely by the client software (hence unavailable to anyone else, including the users). The effect of these technologies is that a number of computers across the net, all running the same client software, can form their own closed virtual world. They can exchange and store data of any form, and no one can get access to it unless the client software permits it. That means that the user, eavesdroppers, and authorities are unable to learn the secrets protected by software which uses these TCPA features. (Note, in the sequel I will just write TCPA when I mean TCPA/Palladium.) Now for a simple example of what can be done: a distributed poker game. Of course there are a number of crypto protocols for playing poker on the net, but they are quite complicated. Even though they've been around for almost 20 years, I've never seen game software which uses them. With TCPA we can do it trivially. Each person runs the same client software, which fact can be tested using secure attestation. The dealer's software randomizes a deck and passes out the cards to each player. The cards are just strings like "ace of spades", or perhaps simple numerical equivalents - nothing fancy. Of course, the dealer's software learns in this way what cards every player has. But the dealer himself (i.e. the human player) doesn't see any of that, he only sees his own hand. The software keeps the information secret from the user. As each person makes his play, his software sends simple messages telling what cards he is exposing or discarding, etc. At the end each person sends messages showing what his hand is, according to the rules of poker. This is a trivial program. You could do it in one or two pages of code. And yet, given the TCPA assumptions, it is just as secure as a complex cryptographically protected version would be that takes ten times as much code. Of course, without TCPA such a program would never work. Someone would write a cheating client which would tell them what everyone else's cards were when they were the dealer. There would be no way that people could trust each other not to do this. But TCPA lets people prove to each other that they are running the legitimate client. So this is a simple example of how the secure attestation features of TCPA/Palladium can allow a kind of software which would never work today, software where people trust each other. Let's look at another example, a P2P system with anonymity. Again, there are many cryptographic systems in the literature for anonymous communication. But they tend to be complicated and inefficient. With TCPA we only need to set up a simple flooding broadcast network. Let each peer connect to a few other peers. To prevent traffic analysis, keep each node-to-node link at a constant traffic level using dummy padding. (Recall that each link is encrypted using SSL.) When someone sends data, it gets sent everywhere via a simple routing strategy. The software then makes the received message available to the local user, if he is the recipient. Possibly the source of the message is carried along with it, to help with routing; but this information is never leaked outside the secure communications part of the software, and never shown to any users. That's all there is to it. Just send messages with flood broadcasts, but keep the source locked inside the secure part. Messages can be sent and received, and neither participants nor outsiders can tell what the source of any message is. As with the earlier example, such a system would never work without TCPA. Rogue software would easily determine which direction messages were coming from, and the anonymity provided would be extremely limited at best. But by eliminating rogues using secure attestation, and keeping the sensitive data safe from molestation, we are able to achieve using a very simple system what otherwise takes tremendous complexity. Here's one more example, which I think is quite amazing: untraceable digital cash with full anonymity, without blinding or even any cryptography at all! (Excepting of course the standard TCPA pieces like SSL and secure storage and attestation.) The idea is, again, trivial. Making a withdrawal, the client sends the user's password and account ID to the bank (this information is kept in secure storage). The bank approves, and the client increments the local "wallet" by that amount (also kept in secure storage). To make a payment, use the anonymous network for transport, and just send a message telling how much is being paid! The recipient increments his wallet by that amount and the sender decrements his. Deposit works analogously to withdrawal. Again, that's all there is to it. Nothing could be simpler. Yet it provides for secure (assuming TCPA is secure), anonymous, untraceable payments. The secure attestation is crucial, of course, to make sure that people are running legitimate clients, otherwise cheating would be rampant. And the secure storage is equally crucial, otherwise any software could increment the sum stored in the wallet and everyone would accept and believe those payments. I understand, of course, that this specific example is not very practical unless we have an extremely secure version of TCPA. If anyone who can break the security can give themselves unlimited money, it means that the security has to be essentially perfect. So this is more of a proof of concept than a realistic proposal. But eventually, with TCPA technology integrated into a tamper-proof, nanotech CPU with molecular sensors and built-in self-destructs, possibly this might be good enough. Or you could augment this solution with some crypto, similar with the "wallets with observers" proposals from Chaum and from Brands. Note that we can make the client open-source, allowing anyone to verify that it has no back doors or cheating potentials, which allows all users to trust that it is not going to hurt them (a problem that takes great complexity to solve with the observer protocols). But still the bare simplicity of the system should make clear how powerful something like TCPA can be for this kind of application. I could go on and on, but the basic idea is always the same, and hopefully once people see the pattern they will come up with their own ideas. Being able to write software that trusts other computers allows for an entirely new approach to security software design. TCPA can enhance freedom and privacy by closing off possibilities for surveillance and interference. The same technology that protects Sony's music content in a DRM application can protect the data exchanged by a P2P system. As Seth Schoen of the EFF paraphrases Microsoft, "So the protection of privacy was the same technical problem as the protection of copyright, because in each case bits owned by one party were being entrusted to another party and there was an attempt to enforce a policy." (http://vitanuova.loyalty.org/2002-07-05.html, 3rd bullet point) In fact, TCPA and Palladium have tremendous potential for enhancing and protecting privacy, if people will just look at them with an open mind. From eugen at leitl.org Sat Aug 3 03:48:22 2002 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 12:48:22 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA In-Reply-To: <20020803102013.93930.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Aug 2002, Morlock Elloi wrote: > Ah, the computers. Well, those that want computers will have them. > They may not be as cheap as today and there will not be as many of > them, but I think that all people *I* deal with will have them, so I > don't really care. Sure, people will have computers. However, if we merrily slide down the slippery slope the authentication might move into the network layer eventually. You will be on the network, yet you will be not on the network. One might be able to fab computers at small scale (FPGA, organic transistors via inkjet, whatever), but it will be tough to create global networks using just overlapping patches of wireless. Especially, if rogue wireless will be rather illegal. From rah at shipwright.com Sat Aug 3 10:04:17 2002 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 13:04:17 -0400 Subject: Other uses of TCPA In-Reply-To: <3D4B9E02.3999.47D95C@localhost> References: <3d3cb71053e71de0b181ecd56b8ba3a2@dizum.com> <3D4B9E02.3999.47D95C@localhost> Message-ID: At 9:10 AM -0700 on 8/3/02, James A. Donald wrote: > I can only see one application for voluntary TCPA, and that is the > application it was designed to perform: Make it possible run > software or content which is encrypted so that it will only run on > one computer for one time period. Otherwise known as "book-entry to the eyeball", and the de-facto wet dream of WAVEoids since time-immemorial, or at least 1989 or so. It's a shame that these people haven't heard of Goedel or Heisenberg. Or Coase, for that matter. :-). Cheers, RAH Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From jamesd at echeque.com Sat Aug 3 14:59:23 2002 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 14:59:23 -0700 Subject: Other uses of TCPA In-Reply-To: <0626f6299522f410f701f0111d02e098@dizum.com> Message-ID: <3D4BEFCB.25952.23E653@localhost> -- James Donald writes: > > I can only see one application for voluntary TCPA, and that is > > the application it was designed to perform: Make it possible > > run software or content which is encrypted so that it will > > only run on one computer for one time period. On 3 Aug 2002 at 20:10, Nomen Nescio wrote: > You've said this a few times, and while it is a plausible goal > of the designers, I don't actually see this specific capability > in the TCPA spec, nor is it mentioned in the Palladium white > paper. Think about it. > For TCPA, you'd have to have the software as a blob which is > encrypted to some key that is locked in the TPM. But the > problem is that the endorsement key is never leaked except to > the Privacy CA .... (Lots of similarly untintellible stuff deleted) You have lost me, I have no idea why you think what you are talking about might be relevant to my assertion. The TPM has its own secret key, it makes the corresponding public key widely available to everyone, and its own internal good known time. So when your customer's payment goes through, you then send him a copy of your stuff encrypted to his TPM, a copy which only his TPM can make use of. Your code, which the TPM decrypts and executes, looks at the known good time, and if the user is out of time, refuses to play. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG 8QGEo4ptd7TD5d7duyz9XkOw+th0YEG9sllM8ix 2P2uZVncMpARxQd6P5V9cXLh97ZLpgi0tHH7LyVfB From dlsmin at email.de Sat Aug 3 00:10:54 2002 From: dlsmin at email.de (Cindy) Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 15:10:54 +0800 Subject: metting you Message-ID: Hi there lovely, This kind of opportunity comes ones in a life. I don't want tbao miss it. Do you? I aam comingb to your placae in few days and I though may bec we can meet each other. If you don't mind I can send you my picture. I am a girl. You can correspond with me using my email eelj at summerdayzz.com From morlockelloi at yahoo.com Sat Aug 3 15:12:11 2002 From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 15:12:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020803221211.62786.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com> > One might be able to fab computers at small scale (FPGA, organic > transistors via inkjet, whatever), but it will be tough to create global > networks using just overlapping patches of wireless. Especially, if rogue > wireless will be rather illegal. UUCP will work as long as people can talk over telephone and there are modems available. The harder and more inconvenient it becomes to connect the higher average IQ of participants will be. There is hope. Just imagine the absence of short-attention span morons that find uucp too complicated. Ask around. ===== end (of original message) Y-a*h*o-o (yes, they scan for this) spam follows: Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com From jays at panix.com Sat Aug 3 12:34:25 2002 From: jays at panix.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 15:34:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Privacy-enhancing uses for TCPA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Aug 2002, AARG!Anonymous wrote: < ... /> > Now for a simple example of what can be done: a distributed poker game. > Of course there are a number of crypto protocols for playing poker on the > net, but they are quite complicated. Even though they've been around > for almost 20 years, I've never seen game software which uses them. > With TCPA we can do it trivially. < ... /> No. Have you included the cost of giving every computer on Earth to the Englobulators? If you wish, we can write an implementation of the wonderful protocols for distributed safer card drawing and we can play our games of poker. And we may run our poker room on the hardware and software we have today, no need for DRM. Indeed today millions use toady's untrammeled hardware and, this is incredible, Microsoft OSes to conduct their personal banking. If "the market" considers that present systems suffice for this, well, I do not think that we need surrender our computers to the Englobulators to save three man-months of programmer time. ad next moves in the eristic tree: You: Marginals vs. total time-space integrated costs/benefits! I: Happy to demonstrate estimates of totals come out for my side. oo--JS. From remailer at aarg.net Sat Aug 3 18:25:28 2002 From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 18:25:28 -0700 Subject: Other uses of TCPA Message-ID: <5c42704f47b04baebb34cfdea142680a@aarg.net> James Donald writes: > James Donald writes: > > > I can only see one application for voluntary TCPA, and that is > > > the application it was designed to perform: Make it possible > > > run software or content which is encrypted so that it will > > > only run on one computer for one time period. > > On 3 Aug 2002 at 20:10, Nomen Nescio wrote: > > For TCPA, you'd have to have the software as a blob which is > > encrypted to some key that is locked in the TPM. But the > > problem is that the endorsement key is never leaked except to > > the Privacy CA .... > > (Lots of similarly untintellible stuff deleted) > > You have lost me, I have no idea why you think what you are > talking about might be relevant to my assertion. I'm sorry, I'm just using the language and data structures from TCPA to try to understand how your assertion could relate to it. If you are making a claim about TCPA, perhaps you could express it in terms of those specific features which are supported by TCPA. > The TPM has its own secret key, it makes the corresponding public > key widely available to everyone, and its own internal good known > time. No, the TPM public key is not widely available to everyone. In fact, believe it or not, it is a relatively closely held secret. This is because the public key is in effect a unique identifier like the Intel processor ID number, and we all know what a firestorm that caused. Intel is paranoid about being burned again, so they have created a very elaborate system in which the TPM's public key is exposed only as narrowly as possible. The TPM public key is called the Endorsement key - this is the key which is signed by the manufacturer and which proves that the TPM is a valid implementation of TCPA. Here is what section 9.2 of the TCPA spec says about it: : A TPM only has one asymmetric endorsement key pair. Due to the nature of : this key pair, both the public and private parts of the key have privacy : and security concerns. : : Exporting the PRIVEK from the TPM must not occur. This is for security : reasons. The PRIVEK is a decryption key and never performs any signature : operations. : : Exporting the public PUBEK from the TPM under controlled circumstances : is allowable. Access to the PUBEK must be restricted to entities that : have a "need to know." This is for privacy reasons. The PUBEK is the public part of the TPM key and is not supposed to be widely available. It is only for those who have a "need to know", which definitely does not include everyone who would like to send some software to the system. In fact, it is only sent to Privacy CAs, which use it to encrypt a cert on a transient key that will be widely exposed. But I'm sorry, I'm going unintelligible again, aren't I? Also, nothing in the TCPA standard refers to securely knowing the time. Section 10.7 says "There is no requirement for a clock function in the TPM", so the date/time info comes from the normal, insecure hardware clock. > So when your customer's payment goes through, you then > send him a copy of your stuff encrypted to his TPM, a copy which > only his TPM can make use of. Your code, which the TPM decrypts > and executes, looks at the known good time, and if the user is > out of time, refuses to play. Well, without using any jargon, I will only say that TCPA doesn't work like this, and if you don't believe me, you will have to read the spec and verify it for yourself. From remailer at aarg.net Sat Aug 3 18:30:09 2002 From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 18:30:09 -0700 Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA Message-ID: <3e42b974f015ac0f9fd5cad30f83526b@aarg.net> Mike Rosing wrote: > On Fri, 2 Aug 2002, AARG! Anonymous wrote: > > > You don't have to send your data to Intel, just a master storage key. > > This key encrypts the other keys which encrypt your data. Normally this > > master key never leaves your TPM, but there is this optional feature > > where it can be backed up, encrypted to the manufacturer's public key, > > for recovery purposes. I think it is also in blinded form. > > In other words, the manufacturer has access to all your data because > they have the master storage key. > > Why would everyone want to give one manufacturer that much power? It's not quite that bad. I mentioned the blinding. What happens is that before the master storage key is encrypted, it is XOR'd with a random value, which is also output by the TPM along with the encrypted recovery blob. You save them both, but only the encrypted blob gets sent to the manufacturer. So when the manufacturer decrypts the data, he doesn't learn your secrets. The system is cumbersome, but not an obvious security leak. From nobody at dizum.com Sat Aug 3 11:10:03 2002 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 20:10:03 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Other uses of TCPA Message-ID: <0626f6299522f410f701f0111d02e098@dizum.com> James Donald writes: > I can only see one application for voluntary TCPA, and that is the > application it was designed to perform: Make it possible run > software or content which is encrypted so that it will only run on > one computer for one time period. You've said this a few times, and while it is a plausible goal of the designers, I don't actually see this specific capability in the TCPA spec, nor is it mentioned in the Palladium white paper. For TCPA, you'd have to have the software as a blob which is encrypted to some key that is locked in the TPM. But the problem is that the endorsement key is never leaked except to the Privacy CA, so the content provider can't encrypt to that key. Then there are Identity keys which are short-term generated keys that get signed by the Privacy CA, but these are primarily used to prove that you are running a TCPA system. I'm not even sure if they are decryption keys. In any case they are supposed to be relatively transient. You get a new one each time you go online so that your web activities are not linkable. So I don't think Identity keys would be very suitable for locking software too, either. I admit that it would be unlikely for Microsoft to go to all the trouble of creating Palladium, without using it to solve its own severe software piracy problems. So I certainly wouldn't be surprised to see some way of achieving what you are talking about. But it is not mentioned in the white paper, and TCPA doesn't seem to support it very well. If it was, as you say, "the application it was designed to perform," this fact is far from apparent in the design documents. From contactspecial-wp080302-100258129 at box2.mysbec.com Sat Aug 3 19:13:20 2002 From: contactspecial-wp080302-100258129 at box2.mysbec.com (mysbec) Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 21:13:20 -0500 Subject: Win $200 FREE! Message-ID: <200208040121.UAA03081@einstein.ssz.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 6665 bytes Desc: not available URL: From eresrch at eskimo.com Sat Aug 3 21:44:58 2002 From: eresrch at eskimo.com (Mike Rosing) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 21:44:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Other uses of TCPA In-Reply-To: <5c42704f47b04baebb34cfdea142680a@aarg.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Aug 2002, AARG! Anonymous wrote: > The TPM public key is called the Endorsement key - this is the key which > is signed by the manufacturer and which proves that the TPM is a valid > implementation of TCPA. Here is what section 9.2 of the TCPA spec says > about it: > > : A TPM only has one asymmetric endorsement key pair. Due to the nature of > : this key pair, both the public and private parts of the key have privacy > : and security concerns. > : > : Exporting the PRIVEK from the TPM must not occur. This is for security > : reasons. The PRIVEK is a decryption key and never performs any signature > : operations. > : > : Exporting the public PUBEK from the TPM under controlled circumstances > : is allowable. Access to the PUBEK must be restricted to entities that > : have a "need to know." This is for privacy reasons. And in another message: I said: => In other words, the manufacturer has access to all your data because => they have the master storage key. => => Why would everyone want to give one manufacturer that much power? AARGH! said: >It's not quite that bad. I mentioned the blinding. What happens is >that before the master storage key is encrypted, it is XOR'd with a >random value, which is also output by the TPM along with the encrypted >recovery blob. You save them both, but only the encrypted blob gets >sent to the manufacturer. So when the manufacturer decrypts the data, >he doesn't learn your secrets. > >The system is cumbersome, but not an obvious security leak. Who owns PRIVEK? Who controls PRIVEK? That's who own's TCPA. And then there was this comment in yet another message: >In addition, we assume that programs are able to run "unmolested"; >that is, that other software and even the user cannot peek into the >program's memory and manipulate it or learn its secrets. Palladium has >a feature called "trusted space" which is supposed to be some special >memory that is immune from being compromised. We also assume that >all data sent between computers is encrypted using something like SSL, >with the secret keys being held securely by the client software (hence >unavailable to anyone else, including the users). Just how "immune" is this program space? Does the operator/owner of the machine control it, or does the owner of PRIVEK control it? So the owner of PRIVEK can send a trojan into my machine and take it over anytime they want. Cool, kind of like the movie "Collosis" where a super computer takes over the world. The more I learn about TCPA, the more I don't like it. Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike From remailer at aarg.net Sat Aug 3 23:50:24 2002 From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 23:50:24 -0700 Subject: Other uses of TCPA Message-ID: Mike Rosing wrote: > Who owns PRIVEK? Who controls PRIVEK? That's who own's TCPA. PRIVEK, the TPM's private key, is generated on-chip. It never leaves the chip. No one ever learns its value. Given this fact, who would you say owns and controls it? > And then there was this comment in yet another message: > > >In addition, we assume that programs are able to run "unmolested"; > >that is, that other software and even the user cannot peek into the > >program's memory and manipulate it or learn its secrets. Palladium has > >a feature called "trusted space" which is supposed to be some special > >memory that is immune from being compromised. We also assume that > >all data sent between computers is encrypted using something like SSL, > >with the secret keys being held securely by the client software (hence > >unavailable to anyone else, including the users). > > Just how "immune" is this program space? Does the operator/owner of > the machine control it, or does the owner of PRIVEK control it? Not much information is provided about this feature in the Palladium white paper. From what I understand, no one is able to manipulate the program when it is in this trusted space, not the machine owner, nor any external party. Only the program is in control. > So > the owner of PRIVEK can send a trojan into my machine and take it over > anytime they want. Cool, kind of like the movie "Collosis" where a > super computer takes over the world. No, for several reasons. First, PRIVEK doesn't really have an owner in the sense you mean. It is more like an autonomous agent. Second, the PRIVEK stuff is part of the TCPA spec, while the trusted space is from Palladium, and they don't seem to have much to do with each other. And last, just because a program can run without interference, it is a huge leap to infer that anyone can put a trojan onto your machine. > The more I learn about TCPA, the more I don't like it. No one has said anything different despite the 40+ messages I have sent on this topic. Is this because TCPA is that bad, or is it because everyone is stubborn? Look, I just showed that all these bad things you thought about TCPA were wrong. The PRIVEK is not controlled by someone else, it does not own the trusted space, and it allows no one to put a trojan onto your machine. But you won't now say that TCPA is OK, will you? You just learned some information which objectively should make you feel less bad about it, and yet you either don't feel that way, or you won't admit it. I am coming to doubt that people's feelings and beliefs about TCPA are based on facts at all. No matter how much I correct negative misconceptions about these systems, no one will admit to having any more positive feelings about it. From eknot30 at excite.com Sat Aug 3 15:55:09 2002 From: eknot30 at excite.com (eknot30 at excite.com) Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 03:55:09 +0500 Subject: Create a PAYCHECK with your computer Message-ID: <002b33c54a4e$3251c0c8$3ac84cb4@sxpmmt> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 10531 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mortgage4u146 at aol.com Sun Aug 4 15:32:52 2002 From: mortgage4u146 at aol.com (RODOLFO) Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 04:32:52 -1800 Subject: get the lowest mortgage rate available B Message-ID: <00005f8c6073$000070c3$00006a99@mailin-02.mx.aol.com> Make a note of Dare to Compare! Do you have the LOWEST Mortgage rate available? * Compare our rates. * No obligation. * Search hundreds of lenders instantly. * Free qoutes. * ALL Credit Accepted. A,B and subprime! One thing we all know, rates won't stay this low forever. Search now: http://T92trwC5qt at mortgage-tree.com/ml.htm Unlist; http://T9QyaeNX3J at mortgage-tree.com/ml.htm From mv at cdc.gov Sun Aug 4 07:39:12 2002 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 07:39:12 -0700 Subject: Simmering frogs with a drop of technology and a dash of law Message-ID: <3D4D3C90.1406E54@cdc.gov> At 12:48 PM 8/3/02 +0200, Eugen Leitl wrote: >On Sat, 3 Aug 2002, Morlock Elloi wrote: > >> Ah, the computers. Well, those that want computers will have them. >> They may not be as cheap as today and there will not be as many of >> them, but I think that all people *I* deal with will have them, so I >> don't really care. > >Sure, people will have computers. However, if we merrily slide down the >slippery slope the authentication might move into the network layer >eventually. You will be on the network, yet you will be not on the >network. Yes. As engineers we can design a system, enforced by Law only at the ISP, which makes the network usable only to those using Approved hardware/software. Try it. Then take a bath --the stench does come off. But surely the heavy hand of the Law will be required? No. This can be done with minimal *apparent* police state feeling, by attacking central communication resources. Don't think so? How about CALEA, Carnivore, etc. In the 1984+20 world, you can use your old 56K modem for point to point communications (over the message-neutral POTS) but you can't use your ISP without running Approved 'Secure Fnord Trusted' equiptment. Your ISP's assets will be seized if they route unVerified traffic from their 'subscribers'. This meets the Specs For Gentle Fascism: it requires some plausible tech, and some plausible law. No Stasi needed, just the power of Customs, IRS and business licensing. So you can distribute your xeroxed pamphlets by hand, but you can't mail them because the State runs the post, and controls the private delivery services. Most folks don't notice because they use State-Approved pens which only let them write Approved thoughts and certainly don't let them copy large excerpts of others' prose. Those 'safe' messages are transparently handled by the State post. Its great that Morloch can make pens from quills, and has a horse to carry his letters to his friends ---who have to use homemade, not State approved, candles to read them. But Morloch's consumption of goose feathers has not gone unnoticed... --- \begin{bumpersticker} Keep Your Laws Off My Machine No Stego No Freedom No Shit \end{bumpersticker} From vinnie at vmeng.com Sun Aug 4 09:14:53 2002 From: vinnie at vmeng.com (Vinnie Moscaritolo) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 09:14:53 -0700 Subject: Apple's Security Update Message Fails PGP Authentication In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 yes, I did sign their key, Apple generated a new key and didn't sign it with the old one or have anyone continue it's trust path.. It would be a good thing if someone else signed it and sent notice to Product Security , you can contact them there and ask them to verify the fingerprint or use their website.. either way, isn't it funny that they use a PGP key to verify their security updates and yet with all the CDSA code they have on X, none of it supports the PGP key infrastucture. actually I am not sure what the Security framework is used for, I suspect encrypting passwords on keychain and now System update.. but not ssh/scp or mail.app. too bad. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 7.5 iQA/AwUBPU1S89ixAAkLPvBCEQKibgCg9DmZJt4cNsQtgXLHEtvnJT2ZW3YAoNFO sFVWo7a5peL7W8//5HSXRVAG =86oB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- At 10:05 AM -0400 8/3/02, R. A. Hettinga wrote: >--- begin forwarded text > > >Status: RO >Delivered-To: mac_crypto at vmeng.com >To: mac_crypto at vmeng.com >From: Fearghas McKay >Subject: [Mac_crypto] "Security Update 2002-08-02 for OpenSSL, Sun RPC, >mod_ssl" does > not verify >Sender: mac_crypto-admin at vmeng.com >Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 08:38:50 +0100 > >**A verification of this security announcement mail fails** > >The key is signed by Vinnie Moscaritolo - vinnie at vmeng.com which is a good >thing even if Vinnie is no longer at Apple ( which is a bad thing ), it is >also signed by someone who does not appear on any of the public keyservers >that I can find which is a bit disappointing. > >Verified version is at the bottom. > > f > >--- begin forwarded text > -- Vinnie Moscaritolo ITCB-IMSH PGP: 3F903472C3AF622D5D918D9BD8B100090B3EF042 ------------------------------------------------------- From d_kar27 at post.com Sun Aug 4 00:24:32 2002 From: d_kar27 at post.com (David Kargbou) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 09:24:32 +0200 Subject: DANIEL KARGBO. cypherpunks ! Message-ID: <200208040724.g747OSR30131@waste.minder.net> cypherpunks , From;Mr.David Kargbou and Family, Johannesburg,South Africa. My Dear , Good day.This very confidential request should come as a surprise to you.But it is because of the nature of what is happening to me and my family urged me to contact you, and I quite understand that this is not the best way to contact you because of the nature of my request and the attention it requires.I got your contact information from your country's information directory during my desperate search for someone who can assist me secretly and confidentially in relocating and managing some family fortunes. My name is Mr.David Kargbou,the second son of Mr.Smith Thabo Kargbou,of Beitbridge Zimbabwe.At the height of the present political crises in our country,in which the white farmers in our country are being slained and ripped off their belongings by the supporters of our president,Mr.Robert G.Mugabe,in their efforts to reclaim all the white owned farms in our country,my father and my elder brother were brutally slained to a painful death on the 13th of february,2002, in their struggle to protect some white farmers who ran to take refuge in our house.My father,during his life on earth was a prominent business man who trades on diamond and gold from some foreign countries .He publicly opposes the crude policies and crime against humanity on the white farmers by Mr.Robert Mugabe and his followers,which they enforced media law restrictions to protect their wicked acts.That not being enough,the president and his followers after winning the last undemocratic elections decided to bl! ock and confiscate all accounts and assets of our black indigenes[that included my fathers assets and accounts] who oppose his policies and render support to these white farmers,along with the assets of these white farmers themselves,that are being presently confiscated.I therefore decided to move my mother and younger sister to the Republic of South Africa,where we presently live without anything and without any source of livelyhood. During my fathers life on earth,he had deposited the sum of Seven Million and Four Hundred Thousand United States Dollars[$7.400.000.00]in a Trunk box with a Finance and Security Company in the Republic of Togo for a cash and carry Diamond and Gold business with some foreign business customers, awaiting instructions to be moved to its destination,which he never completed before he met his untimely death on that faithful day.In view of this and as the only surviving son of my father,and with the present clamp down,killing and confiscation of his assets as one of those who render support to the white farmers in our country,I therefore humbly wish to inform you of my intentions to use your name and adress in making sure that this fund is lifted out of Africa finally,to the Europe office of the finance company and also seek for your honest and trustworthy assistance to help me clear and accommodate this money over there before it is dictated out and blocked by the present Mugabe! 's regime.My mother is presently with the valid document covering this deposit. Now this is what I actually want you to do for me; 1. I want you to be presented to the Finance and Security company as the person I contacted to assist my family for this purpose, with whose name and adress myself and my mother will forward to them their office in the Republic of Togo as the person that will clear this money when they lift it out to their europe office. 2. To finally assist me in accommodating and managing this money in any lucrative business in your country for at least three years. Please,I hope you will grant and view this very request with favour and much understanding of our situation now,and will be a very honest and reliable person to deal with.And also bearing in mind the confidential nature of this my request,I emphasize please that you keep every bit of it to yourself so as to protect my familys future and yourself rendering this help.Thanking you in anticipation of your urgent response as soon as you read this very request. Best Regards, Mr.David Kargbou and family. From d_kar29 at post.com Sun Aug 4 00:54:52 2002 From: d_kar29 at post.com (David Kargbou) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 09:54:52 +0200 Subject: DANIEL KARGBO. cypherpunks ! Message-ID: <200208040659.BAB11654@einstein.ssz.com> cypherpunks , From;Mr.David Kargbou and Family, Johannesburg,South Africa. My Dear , Good day.This very confidential request should come as a surprise to you.But it is because of the nature of what is happening to me and my family urged me to contact you, and I quite understand that this is not the best way to contact you because of the nature of my request and the attention it requires.I got your contact information from your country's information directory during my desperate search for someone who can assist me secretly and confidentially in relocating and managing some family fortunes. My name is Mr.David Kargbou,the second son of Mr.Smith Thabo Kargbou,of Beitbridge Zimbabwe.At the height of the present political crises in our country,in which the white farmers in our country are being slained and ripped off their belongings by the supporters of our president,Mr.Robert G.Mugabe,in their efforts to reclaim all the white owned farms in our country,my father and my elder brother were brutally slained to a painful death on the 13th of february,2002, in their struggle to protect some white farmers who ran to take refuge in our house.My father,during his life on earth was a prominent business man who trades on diamond and gold from some foreign countries .He publicly opposes the crude policies and crime against humanity on the white farmers by Mr.Robert Mugabe and his followers,which they enforced media law restrictions to protect their wicked acts.That not being enough,the president and his followers after winning the last undemocratic elections decided to bl! oc! k and confiscate all accounts and assets of our black indigenes[that included my fathers assets and accounts] who oppose his policies and render support to these white farmers,along with the assets of these white farmers themselves,that are being presently confiscated.I therefore decided to move my mother and younger sister to the Republic of South Africa,where we presently live without anything and without any source of livelyhood. During my fathers life on earth,he had deposited the sum of Seven Million and Four Hundred Thousand United States Dollars[$7.400.000.00]in a Trunk box with a Finance and Security Company in the Republic of Togo for a cash and carry Diamond and Gold business with some foreign business customers, awaiting instructions to be moved to its destination,which he never completed before he met his untimely death on that faithful day.In view of this and as the only surviving son of my father,and with the present clamp down,killing and confiscation of his assets as one of those who render support to the white farmers in our country,I therefore humbly wish to inform you of my intentions to use your name and adress in making sure that this fund is lifted out of Africa finally,to the Europe office of the finance company and also seek for your honest and trustworthy assistance to help me clear and accommodate this money over there before it is dictated out and blocked by the present Mugabe! 's! regime.My mother is presently with the valid document covering this deposit. Now this is what I actually want you to do for me; 1. I want you to be presented to the Finance and Security company as the person I contacted to assist my family for this purpose, with whose name and adress myself and my mother will forward to them their office in the Republic of Togo as the person that will clear this money when they lift it out to their europe office. 2. To finally assist me in accommodating and managing this money in any lucrative business in your country for at least three years. Please,I hope you will grant and view this very request with favour and much understanding of our situation now,and will be a very honest and reliable person to deal with.And also bearing in mind the confidential nature of this my request,I emphasize please that you keep every bit of it to yourself so as to protect my familys future and yourself rendering this help.Thanking you in anticipation of your urgent response as soon as you read this very request. Best Regards, Mr.David Kargbou and family. From d_kar29 at post.com Sun Aug 4 00:54:54 2002 From: d_kar29 at post.com (David Kargbou) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 09:54:54 +0200 Subject: DANIEL KARGBO. cypherpunks ! Message-ID: <200208040659.BAA11656@einstein.ssz.com> cypherpunks , From;Mr.David Kargbou and Family, Johannesburg,South Africa. My Dear , Good day.This very confidential request should come as a surprise to you.But it is because of the nature of what is happening to me and my family urged me to contact you, and I quite understand that this is not the best way to contact you because of the nature of my request and the attention it requires.I got your contact information from your country's information directory during my desperate search for someone who can assist me secretly and confidentially in relocating and managing some family fortunes. My name is Mr.David Kargbou,the second son of Mr.Smith Thabo Kargbou,of Beitbridge Zimbabwe.At the height of the present political crises in our country,in which the white farmers in our country are being slained and ripped off their belongings by the supporters of our president,Mr.Robert G.Mugabe,in their efforts to reclaim all the white owned farms in our country,my father and my elder brother were brutally slained to a painful death on the 13th of february,2002, in their struggle to protect some white farmers who ran to take refuge in our house.My father,during his life on earth was a prominent business man who trades on diamond and gold from some foreign countries .He publicly opposes the crude policies and crime against humanity on the white farmers by Mr.Robert Mugabe and his followers,which they enforced media law restrictions to protect their wicked acts.That not being enough,the president and his followers after winning the last undemocratic elections decided to bl! oc! k and confiscate all accounts and assets of our black indigenes[that included my fathers assets and accounts] who oppose his policies and render support to these white farmers,along with the assets of these white farmers themselves,that are being presently confiscated.I therefore decided to move my mother and younger sister to the Republic of South Africa,where we presently live without anything and without any source of livelyhood. During my fathers life on earth,he had deposited the sum of Seven Million and Four Hundred Thousand United States Dollars[$7.400.000.00]in a Trunk box with a Finance and Security Company in the Republic of Togo for a cash and carry Diamond and Gold business with some foreign business customers, awaiting instructions to be moved to its destination,which he never completed before he met his untimely death on that faithful day.In view of this and as the only surviving son of my father,and with the present clamp down,killing and confiscation of his assets as one of those who render support to the white farmers in our country,I therefore humbly wish to inform you of my intentions to use your name and adress in making sure that this fund is lifted out of Africa finally,to the Europe office of the finance company and also seek for your honest and trustworthy assistance to help me clear and accommodate this money over there before it is dictated out and blocked by the present Mugabe! 's! regime.My mother is presently with the valid document covering this deposit. Now this is what I actually want you to do for me; 1. I want you to be presented to the Finance and Security company as the person I contacted to assist my family for this purpose, with whose name and adress myself and my mother will forward to them their office in the Republic of Togo as the person that will clear this money when they lift it out to their europe office. 2. To finally assist me in accommodating and managing this money in any lucrative business in your country for at least three years. Please,I hope you will grant and view this very request with favour and much understanding of our situation now,and will be a very honest and reliable person to deal with.And also bearing in mind the confidential nature of this my request,I emphasize please that you keep every bit of it to yourself so as to protect my familys future and yourself rendering this help.Thanking you in anticipation of your urgent response as soon as you read this very request. Best Regards, Mr.David Kargbou and family. From roy at sendai.scytale.com Sun Aug 4 08:06:33 2002 From: roy at sendai.scytale.com (Roy M.Silvernail) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 10:06:33 -0500 Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA In-Reply-To: <20020803221211.62786.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20020803221211.62786.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <02080410063300.07228@sendai.scytale.com> On Saturday 03 August 2002 05:12 pm, Morlock Elloi wrote: > UUCP will work as long as people can talk over telephone and there are > modems available. The harder and more inconvenient it becomes to connect > the higher average IQ of participants will be. > > There is hope. > > Just imagine the absence of short-attention span morons that find uucp too > complicated. Ask around. But if WorldCom disolves in bankruptcy, will UUNet still be the center of the bang-path universe? More seriously, I think many of us old-timers long for the time when a certain level of wizardry was required to get on the net. (before Prodigy and the September that Never Ended) -- Roy M. Silvernail [ ] roy at scytale.com (formerly uunet!comcon!cybrspc!roy) DNRC Minister Plenipotentiary of All Things Confusing, Software Division PGP Key 0x1AF39331 : 71D5 2EA2 4C27 D569 D96B BD40 D926 C05E Key available from pubkey at scytale.com I charge to process unsolicited commercial email From eugen at leitl.org Sun Aug 4 02:54:14 2002 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 11:54:14 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Other uses of TCPA In-Reply-To: <3D4BEFCB.25952.23E653@localhost> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Aug 2002, James A. Donald wrote: > The TPM has its own secret key, it makes the corresponding public > key widely available to everyone, and its own internal good known > time. So when your customer's payment goes through, you then Trusted time is a useful concept. I presume the time is set by the manufacturer. Given current clock accuracy and limited lifetime of backup power I presume it is possible to adjust the time via trusted timeservers. Do they mention anything like this in the specs? > send him a copy of your stuff encrypted to his TPM, a copy which > only his TPM can make use of. Your code, which the TPM decrypts > and executes, looks at the known good time, and if the user is > out of time, refuses to play. Is there any reason to believe the implementers are telling us everything, and will implement the specs as advertised? I mean, consider the source. Sometimes it makes sense to look a gift horse in the mouth, especially if it's made from wood. From eugen at leitl.org Sun Aug 4 03:29:58 2002 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 12:29:58 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Other uses of TCPA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Aug 2002, AARG! Anonymous wrote: > But you won't now say that TCPA is OK, will you? You just learned > some information which objectively should make you feel less bad about > it, and yet you either don't feel that way, or you won't admit it. I > am coming to doubt that people's feelings and beliefs about TCPA are > based on facts at all. No matter how much I correct negative > misconceptions about these systems, no one will admit to having any > more positive feelings about it. Whoa there. Hold the horses. You're completely inverting the burden of proof here. You're *trusting* a preliminary spec fielded by *whom* again? Were you on the design team? Are you on implementers' team? Have you reverse engineered the function from tracing the structures on the die? Will you continue doing this, sampling every batch being shipped? Consider the source. It is bogged down with enough bad mana to last for centuries. Consider the motivations. They're certainly not there to enhance end user's privacy and anonymitity. In fact, one of the design specs must have been minimizing the latter as long as it not hurts the prime design incentives. These are all facts you won't find in the specs. It boggles my mind I have to explain this, especially to a member of this particular community. Are you really sure you're not a TCPA troll? If they manage to slip that particular toad into high volume production, hackers will of course use it, inasmuch possible thwarting the original intent. But you seem to ask for blanket endorsement based merely on spec, which is a rather tall order. From remailer at aarg.net Sun Aug 4 14:30:14 2002 From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 14:30:14 -0700 Subject: Other uses of TCPA Message-ID: Eugen Leitl writes: > On Sat, 3 Aug 2002, AARG! Anonymous wrote: > > > But you won't now say that TCPA is OK, will you? You just learned > > some information which objectively should make you feel less bad about > > it, and yet you either don't feel that way, or you won't admit it. I > > am coming to doubt that people's feelings and beliefs about TCPA are > > based on facts at all. No matter how much I correct negative > > misconceptions about these systems, no one will admit to having any > > more positive feelings about it. > > Whoa there. Hold the horses. You're completely inverting the burden of > proof here. You're *trusting* a preliminary spec fielded by *whom* again? > Were you on the design team? Are you on implementers' team? Have you > reverse engineered the function from tracing the structures on the die? > Will you continue doing this, sampling every batch being shipped? I am judging the proposal on the basis of the spec. I think that is the correct way to do the analysis. Then, you can extend your analysis on the basis of ways you think the spec might change. But surely the spec ought to be a starting point for any judgement. Otherwise there is no factual basis for the analysis. Yet no one here has said that now that they understand the spec better, they don't think TCPA as specified would be as bad as they thought. Some people, like James Donald and Ryan Lackey, have said that they don't think TCPA would be all that bad if it weren't for government, copyright laws, etc. But no one has suggested that my many postings have changed their opinion about TCPA in and of itself. > Consider the source. It is bogged down with enough bad mana to last for > centuries. The Alliance consists of Compaq, Intel, IBM, HP, and Microsoft. (Since then HP has bought Compaq.) Even if you hate Microsoft, you probably don't hate all of these companies, do you? > Consider the motivations. They're certainly not there to > enhance end user's privacy and anonymitity. In fact, one of the design > specs must have been minimizing the latter as long as it not hurts the > prime design incentives. These are all facts you won't find in the specs. I think the spec directly contradicts this claim! If they cared so little about user privacy, why would they use an elaborate system with a Privacy CA to make sure no user-identifiable information leaks onto the net? Surely the simpler approach would be what James Donald suggested, to send out the TPM's public key and let people use that. But it is a per-user identifier and so they went to great lengths to conceal it. Furthermore, if their motivations were so bad, wouldn't it have been better for them for TCPA to work the way most people assume, to only load software which has been signed by some authority? Instead they are careful to let any software load, and to report its status to third parties, so the third parties can make their own judgements about what to trust. Why do you think they did it like this, if they were so determined to minimize the control of the end user? > It boggles my mind I have to explain this, especially to a member of this > particular community. Are you really sure you're not a TCPA troll? Who cares what I am? It's facts that count! I could be Satan Incarnate and it wouldn't matter. I am giving you facts about TCPA based on my personal investment of time to study the system. Tell me this: if you care about this standard, why not get it and learn it yourself? Not one person here has done this! Everyone prefers to believe falsehoods than to learn the truth for themself. Do you think that is a good strategy for survival in a potentially hostile and dangerous world? > If they manage to slip that particular toad into high volume production, > hackers will of course use it, inasmuch possible thwarting the original > intent. But you seem to ask for blanket endorsement based merely on spec, > which is a rather tall order. All I am really asking for is someone to acknowledge that I have provided information to them which makes them see TCPA as less dangerous and damaging than they had thought based on the false information which has been circulating. I don't see how anyone can deny this. The caricature of TCPA that most people believe is very bad. The truth is not so bad. Logically, you *have* to believe that TCPA is not as bad as you thought, when you are provided with the truth. Let me ask you, Eugen: isn't a TCPA which is open, which will run all software, which does not prevent any software from running, better than a TCPA which will only run signed software? I know you are a person who is willing to think for himself and defy the conventional wisdom. Please respond to this message and explain to me how this logic strikes you. From eresrch at eskimo.com Sun Aug 4 19:38:37 2002 From: eresrch at eskimo.com (Mike Rosing) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 19:38:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Other uses of TCPA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Aug 2002, AARG! Anonymous wrote: > Eugen Leitl writes: > > > On Sat, 3 Aug 2002, AARG! Anonymous wrote: > > > > > But you won't now say that TCPA is OK, will you? You just learned > > > some information which objectively should make you feel less bad about > > > it, and yet you either don't feel that way, or you won't admit it. I > > > am coming to doubt that people's feelings and beliefs about TCPA are > > > based on facts at all. No matter how much I correct negative > > > misconceptions about these systems, no one will admit to having any > > > more positive feelings about it. > > > > Whoa there. Hold the horses. You're completely inverting the burden of > > proof here. You're *trusting* a preliminary spec fielded by *whom* again? > > Were you on the design team? Are you on implementers' team? Have you > > reverse engineered the function from tracing the structures on the die? > > Will you continue doing this, sampling every batch being shipped? Whoa there is right! Yes, you are definitly educating me. Thank you. I am now totally confused on a lot of issues. So far, you have moved me from thinking TCPA seems like it might be useful to thinking that it's pretty monstrous. If you want to be a good teacher, you will have some patience. If you are a troll, you will get frustrated and leave soon. > I am judging the proposal on the basis of the spec. I think that is the > correct way to do the analysis. Then, you can extend your analysis on > the basis of ways you think the spec might change. But surely the spec > ought to be a starting point for any judgement. Otherwise there is no > factual basis for the analysis. Agreed. > Yet no one here has said that now that they understand the spec better, > they don't think TCPA as specified would be as bad as they thought. > Some people, like James Donald and Ryan Lackey, have said that they > don't think TCPA would be all that bad if it weren't for government, > copyright laws, etc. But no one has suggested that my many postings > have changed their opinion about TCPA in and of itself. Maybe that's because I'm not convinced yet. I've got a thick skull :-) > The Alliance consists of Compaq, Intel, IBM, HP, and Microsoft. > (Since then HP has bought Compaq.) Even if you hate Microsoft, you > probably don't hate all of these companies, do you? Hate is too strong a word. They aren't evil because they want to be, but because they have to be. They won't survive if they don't optimize society to their advantage. > I think the spec directly contradicts this claim! If they cared so little > about user privacy, why would they use an elaborate system with a Privacy > CA to make sure no user-identifiable information leaks onto the net? > Surely the simpler approach would be what James Donald suggested, to send > out the TPM's public key and let people use that. But it is a per-user > identifier and so they went to great lengths to conceal it. It creates a single point of attack. It reminds me of key escrow. Once you get to the chewy center, you can control everything. More questions below. > Furthermore, if their motivations were so bad, wouldn't it have been > better for them for TCPA to work the way most people assume, to only > load software which has been signed by some authority? Instead they > are careful to let any software load, and to report its status to third > parties, so the third parties can make their own judgements about what > to trust. Why do you think they did it like this, if they were so > determined to minimize the control of the end user? Because it's hard to think about everything. Maybe they didn't finish thinking all the ramifications through. I would hope we'll be able to ask enough questions that you'll have a hard time quoting the spec. > Who cares what I am? It's facts that count! I could be Satan Incarnate > and it wouldn't matter. I am giving you facts about TCPA based on my > personal investment of time to study the system. Tell me this: if you > care about this standard, why not get it and learn it yourself? Not one > person here has done this! Everyone prefers to believe falsehoods than > to learn the truth for themself. Do you think that is a good strategy > for survival in a potentially hostile and dangerous world? Not in a democracy. All laws are based on belief. They have nothing to do with facts. Facts get in the way and are far too confusing for a majority of humans. While understanding the facts is useful to anyone who wants real power, you can still accomplish a lot in the short run with a good lie. But I would like to understand TCPA enough that I can tell which newspaper article is the lie and which isn't. > All I am really asking for is someone to acknowledge that I have provided > information to them which makes them see TCPA as less dangerous and > damaging than they had thought based on the false information which has > been circulating. I don't see how anyone can deny this. The caricature > of TCPA that most people believe is very bad. The truth is not so bad. > Logically, you *have* to believe that TCPA is not as bad as you thought, > when you are provided with the truth. Well I deny it. So far, I am still confused and amazed at how powerful a device you have described. >From a different message- :Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 23:50:24 -0700 :From: AARG! Anonymous :To: cypherpunks at lne.com :Subject: Re: Other uses of TCPA : :Mike Rosing wrote: :> Who owns PRIVEK? Who controls PRIVEK? That's who own's TCPA. : :PRIVEK, the TPM's private key, is generated on-chip. It never leaves :the chip. No one ever learns its value. Given this fact, who would :you say owns and controls it? OK, so why can't any joe hacker create their own PRIVEK? _nobody_ knows it's value? Then how can anyone know if a chip is "real" or "imitation". What happens when the motherboard dies again? PRIVEK was copied out of the chip to some "fob" right? I thought you said the manufacturer put the keys in at the factory. I'm confused dude, straighten me out. Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike From remailer at aarg.net Sun Aug 4 22:30:14 2002 From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 22:30:14 -0700 Subject: Other uses of TCPA Message-ID: <97ae2010fd503056b22ed1e86cdc0853@aarg.net> Mike Rosing wrote: > :Mike Rosing wrote: > :> Who owns PRIVEK? Who controls PRIVEK? That's who own's TCPA. > : > :PRIVEK, the TPM's private key, is generated on-chip. It never leaves > :the chip. No one ever learns its value. Given this fact, who would > :you say owns and controls it? > > OK, so why can't any joe hacker create their own PRIVEK? _nobody_ knows > it's value? Then how can anyone know if a chip is "real" or "imitation". > What happens when the motherboard dies again? PRIVEK was copied out of > the chip to some "fob" right? I thought you said the manufacturer put > the keys in at the factory. Maybe I wasn't too clear in my explanation. I assume you know how public key cryptography works. The TPM chip generates an RSA key pair. This key pair is called the Endorsement Key. The private key is called PRIVEK and never leaves the chip. The public key is called PUBEK and although it is "sensitive", it does leave the chip under some circumstances. One of those circumstances is when the chip is manufactured and comes off the line. It is powered up, generates the key pair, and exports PUBEK. At that point the chip manufacturer creates an X.509 certificate that signs PUBEK. It is this cert which proves that the PUBEK is a legitimate Endorsement Key. While the cert is not widely shown (for privacy reasons), it is used in a TCPA protocol, and this is ultimately what makes it impossible for Joe Hacker to create a fake TCPA key. Now, the part about recovering from a dead chip refers to a different key. It's called the "root of trust for storage" key, RTS. This is used for encrypting data on the disk. The PUBEK was used for communicating with third parties to prove that you had a legitimate TPM. So there are two different keys used for two different purposes. Both of them are generated on-chip, and no one ever learns either private key. If your chip dies, you lose the PUBEK but that doesn't matter, nothing is really locked to it. You can just get a new motherboard and start using the new PUBEK from that one's TPM chip. It's the RTS key that is a problem, because if you can't retrieve that, all the data on your disk that was sealed (encrypted) using the TCPA mechanisms could be lost. So they have a system to transfer the RTS key from one machine to another. I've been thinking about writing a few pages summarizing TCPA and how the crypto works, but then I think, why bother? Everyone is already convinced that the system is the spawn of Satan. Nobody cares about the facts. BTW I found a post by Ross Anderson, http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/pipermail/ukcrypto/2002-June/019463.html, in which he says that one of the worst claimed feaures from his TCPA FAQ (http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/tcpa-faq.html), censoring objectionable programs/data off people's computers against their will, actually doesn't rely on TCPA at all. In fact he says they could do it with existing Windows OS's just as well. It's such an obviously nasty feature that I can't see them ever actually trying this, but in any case it really doesn't have anything to do with TCPA. Maybe someone could ask Ross why his FAQ blames TCPA for a feature that he admits isn't really related! But no, that would be crazy. Better to believe comfortable falsehoods than to seek the truth. From usacard at marketingontarget.net Sun Aug 4 17:05:06 2002 From: usacard at marketingontarget.net (USA CreditCard) Date: 5 Aug 2002 00:05:06 -0000 Subject: Get a $5000 Credit Limit Message-ID: <200208041604.g74G4XV2027772@ak47.algebra.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2113 bytes Desc: not available URL: From remailer at aarg.net Mon Aug 5 00:10:12 2002 From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 00:10:12 -0700 Subject: dangers of TCPA/palladium Message-ID: Adam Back writes: > - Palladium is a proposed OS feature-set based on the TCPA hardware > (Microsoft) Actually there seem to be some hardware differences between TCPA and Palladium. TCPA relies on a TPM, while Palladium uses some kind of new CPU mode. Palladium also includes some secure memory, a concept which does not exist in TCPA. > The main 4 features proposed in the TCPA/palladium scheme are: > > 1. secure bootstrap -- checksums of BIOS, firmware, privileged OS code > are used to ensure the machine knows whether it is running certified > software or not. This is rooted in hardware, so you can't by pass it > by using virtualization, only by hardware hacking (*). > > 2. software attestation -- the hardware supports attesting to a third > party whether a call comes from a certified software component as > assured by the hardware described in feature 1. More generally, the hardware can attest to many aspects of the current machine state, including the cumulative hash of the software which has booted so far. > 3. hardware assisted compartmentalization -- CPU can run privileged > software, and RAM can contain information that you can not examine, > and can not modify. (Optionally the software source can be published, > but that is not necessary, and if it's not you won't be able to > reverse-engineer it as it can be encrypted for the CPU). TCPA does not get into this part, only the Palladium white paper mentions this. However it does seem to be a logical component for effective trusted computing. > 4. sealing -- applications can store data that can only be read by > that application. This works based on more hardware -- the software > state checksums developed in feature 1 are used by hardware to > generate encryption keys. The hardware will refuse to generate the > key unless the same software state is running. Right. This plus the attestation are what allow an application to create a "closed world". See my earlier message for examples of how this could be used to enhance privacy and anonymity. What better example of a closed world than your own secrets? > It's interesting to see that one of the author's of [6] has said that > TCPA as curently formed is a bad thing and is trying to influence TCPA > to make it more open, to exhibit stronger privacy properties read his > comments at [7]. I don't think his comments make that much sense. I'd be curious to read your take on them. What is he talking about with the non-malleable root of trusted storage? Trusted storage seems like one of the least objectionable aspects. Is he confusing this with the endorsement key, used to make the remote attestations? Or is this related to the idea that you won't be able to boot your OS of choice? > There are a lot of potential negative implications of this technology, > it represents a major shift in the balance of power comparable in > magnitude to the clipper chip: > > 1. Potentially cedes control of the platform -- while the palladium > docs talk about being able to boot the hardware with TCPA turned off, > there exists possibility that with minor configuration change the > hardware / firmware ensemble that forms palladium/TCPA could be > configured to allow only certified OSes to boot, period. It's > intereseting to note, if I read correctly, that the X-box (based on > celeron processor and TCPA / TCPA-like features) does employ this > feature. See for example: [8]. This is of course one of the biggest criticisms of TCPA - that it could be changed so that you will only be able to boot certified OS's. Don't you think that would have to be done by law, rather than as a preemptive act by the technologists (for antitrust reasons if nothing else)? Why would such a law be passed? IMO the social changes necessary to even begin to imagine such a drastic step are so huge that the technological implementation seems minor in comparison. I don't think it is fair to criticize this proposal for such a far-fetched possibility. > The documents talk about there being no barrier to certifying TCPA > aware extensions to open-source OSes. However I'm having trouble > figuring out how this would work. Perhaps IBM with it's linux support > would build a TCPA extension for linux. Think about it -- the > extension runs in privileged mode, and presumably won't be certified > unless it passes some audit enforcing TCPA policies. (Such as keeping > the owner of the machine from reading sealed documents, or reading the > contents of DRM policy controlled documents without meeting the > requirements for the DRM policy.) TCPA doesn't currently cover certifying operating systems. They talk about certifying TPMs, about certifying PC hardware designs and implementations. Possibly in the next version they will get into issues like this. In the mean time, supposedly HP is going forward with an OS that can use TCPA features. > 2. DSS over-again -- a big aspect of the DSS reverse-engineering was > to allow DVDs to be played in software on linux. The TCPA platform > seems to have the primary goal of making a framework within which it > is possible to build extensions to implement hardware tamper resistant > DRM. (The DRM implementation would run in a hardware assisted code > compartment as described in feature 3 above). So now where does that > put open source platforms? Will they be able to read such DRM > protected content? It seems likely that in the longer term the DRM > platform will include video cards without access to video memory, > perhaps encryption of the video signal out to the monitor, and of > audio out to the speakers. (There are other existing schemes to do > these things which dovetail into the likely TCPA DRM framework.) > > With the secure boot strap described in feature 1, the video card and > so on are also part of the boot strap process, so the DRM system would > have ready support from the platform for robustly refusing to play > except on certain types of hardware. Similarly the application > software which plays these DRM policy protected files and talks to the > DRM policy module in the hardware assisted code compartment will > itself be an application which uses the security boot-strapping > features. So it won't be possible to write an application on for > example linux to play these files without an audit and license etc > from various content, DRM and OS cartels. This will lead to exactly > the kind of thing Richard Stallman talked about in his prescient paper > on the coming platform and right to develop competing software control > wars [9]. I think this analysis is largely correct, except that it won't be as monolithic as you make it sound. There won't be just one content supplier who judges all software, that's obviously impossible. Rather, each different supplier will make its own determination of which software you can trust. And likewise for non-DRM applications. Banks will decide which banking software to trust. Game networks will decide which game clients to trust, etc. > 3. Privacy support is broken -- the "privacy" features while clearly > attempts to defuse a re-run at the pentium serial number debacle, have > not really fixed it's problems. You have to trust the "Trusted Third > Party" privacy CA not to track you and not to collude with other CAs > and software vendors. There are known solutions to this particular > sub-problem, for example Stefan Brands digital credentials [10], which > can be used to build a cryptographically assured privacy preserving > PKI avoiding the linking problems arising from identity based and > attribute certificates. I agree that it would be nice to see more flexibility there. The Chaum blinding patent expires in 2005, so maybe around then we can start seeing privacy CA's that use blind signatures, which solves that problem. The spec is obviously trying hard to protect privacy, it's just that the mechanisms to do it right are extremely complex compared to the straightforward way. > 4. Strong enforcement for DMCA DRM excesses -- the types of DRM system > which the platform enables stand a fair chance of providing high > levels of enforcement for things which though strictly legally > mandated (copyright licensing restrictions, limited number of plays of > CDs / DVDs other disadvantageous schemes; inflexible and usurious > software licensing), if enforced strictly would have deleterious > effects on society and freedom. Copyright violation is widely > practiced to a greater or less extent by just about all individuals. > It is widely viewed as acceptable behavior. These social realities > and personal freedoms are not taken into account or represented in the > lobbying schemes which lead to the media cartels obtaining legal > support for the erosion of users rights and expansionist power grabs > in DMCA, WIPO etc. > > Some of these issues might be not so bad except for the track records, > and obvious monopolistic tendencies and economic pressures on the > entities who will have the root keys to the worlds computers. There > will be no effect choice or competition due to existing near > monopolies, or cartelisation in the hardware, operating system, and > content distribution conglomerates. Nobody's putting a gun to your head and making you download content. If you can't agree to the conditions, go do something else. There are much worse things that can happen in the world than that copyright becomes enforceable. Why not give the market a chance? Company A provides the data with Draconian DRM restrictions; company B gives you more flexibility in what you do. All else being equal, people will prefer company B. So they can charge more. In this way a balance will be reached depending on how much people really value this kind of flexibility and how much they are willing to pay for it. You and I don't get to decide, the people who are making the decisions about what content to buy will decide. And nobody's got the root key to my computer. You make this claim in many places in the document. What exactly is this "root key" in TCPA terms? The endorsement key? It's private part is generated on-chip and never leaves the chip! > 5. Strong enforcement for the software renting model -- the types of > software licensing policy enforcement that can be built with the > platform will also start to strongly enable the software and object > rental ideas. Again potentially these models have some merit except > that they will be sabotaged by API lock out, where the root key owners > will be able to charge monopoly rents for access to APIs. I don't follow this. What root key owners? What APIs? Could you say more about how TCPA will help with software rental? > 6. Audits and certification become vastly more prevalent. Having had > some involvement with software certification (FIPS 140-1 / CC) I can > attest that this can be expensive exercises. It is unlikely that the > open source community will be able to get software certified due to > cost (the software is free, there is no business entity to claim > ownership of the certification rights, and so no way to recuperate the > costs). While certification where competition is able to function is > a good thing, providing users with a transparency and needed > assurance, the danger with tying audits to TCPA is that it will be > another barrier to entry for small businesses, and for open source > particularly. This is a good point, but again it depends on the specific content realm. There are not just one or two - there are thousands of kinds of content, or even more. Not everyone is going to require FIPS 140 levels of certification! But possibly Disney and Sony will. My guess is that if there ever is a Linux program that will play their movies, it will be because those companies contracted to get it written. You may see this in many contexts - software applications don't get certified, rather they are supplied by the vendors, or the vendors arrange to get them done. > 7. Untrusted, unauditable software will be able to run without > scrutiny inside the hardware assisted code compartments. Some of the > documentation talks about open sourcing some aspects. While this may > come to pass, but that sounded like the TOR (Trusted Operating Root); > other extension modules also running in unauditable compartments will > not be so published. This part I don't understand too much; it's not a TCPA concept, and there is little known about Palladium. Supposedly the idea is that this is a place that code can run without being touched by debuggers or viruses. I don't know what happens if a virus gets itself loaded into this area, if that is even possible. Maybe all the different compartments are isolated from each other. Does this seem like a bad feature to you? > 8. Gives away root control of your machine -- providing potentially > universal remote control of users machines to any government agencies > with access to the TCPA certification master keys, or policies > allowing them to demand certifications on hostile code on demand. > Central authorities are likely to be the only, or the default > controllers of the firmware/software upgrade mechanism which comes as > part of the secure bootstrap feature. Now you're starting to go paranoid. All the TCPA certification master keys do is to certify that a system is TCPA compliant. They don't have a remote control over your machine! They are more analogous to Verisign in the X.509 world. Last I checked they hadn't taken over my box. As far as the field upgrade, it has to be authorized by the owner. I'm disappointed to see this kind of fantasizing in what has been a well grounded document until now. If you're going to make this kind of charge, that TCPA gives a universal remote control to government, you need to back it up in detail. > 9. Provides a dangerously tempting target for government power-grabs > -- governments will be very interested to be able to abuse the power > provided by the platform, to gain access to it's keys to be able to > insert remote backdoors, and/or to try to mandate government policy > enforcement modules once such a platform is built. Think this is > unrealistic? Recall clipper? The TCPA is a generic extensible policy > enforcement architecture which can be configured to robustly enforce > policies against the interests of the machine owner. Clipper, > key-escrow the whole multi-year fight, at some point in the near > future if some of the more egregious TCPA/Palladium framework features > and configuration possibilities becomes widely deployed could be > implemented after the fact, as a TCPA/Palladium policy extentsion > which runs in the hardware assisted code compartment and is > authenticated up to the hardware boot by the secure bootstrapping > process. I don't agree with your characterization that TCPA enforces policies against the owner's interests. He has to voluntarily agree to everything, from turning on TCPA, to booting a TCPA compliant program, to running an application which some third party will trust, to accepting data from that third party under agreed-upon conditions. If at any step he didn't feel that what he was doing was in his interests, he can stop and do something else. When you walk into a store and pay money for food, is that store enforcing policies against your interests? Only from the most shallow perspective, for if such policies were not widely enforced, you and I and everyone else would starve. We all participate voluntarily in these institutions. Each payment we make is in our interests. And the same thing is true if you receive some data with conditions on how it is manipulated. As far as the concern about changes, I think the smart thing to do is to fight the bad and promote the good. Definitely we should oppose any proposal to make TCPA non-voluntary, to force people to boot a certain OS, to limit what they can do on their computers. But presently none of those features are in TCPA. Rather than saying TCPA is bad because someone could make all these hypothetical changes, it makes more sense to judge TCPA on its own, as a system that emphasizes user choice. Involuntary TCPA is bad, voluntary is good. So we should not fight TCPA, we should fight proposals to make it involuntary. > So what I've read so far, I think people's gut reactions are right -- > that it's an aggressive and abmitious power grab by the evil empire -- > the 3 cartels / monopolies surrounding PC hardware, Operating systems > and Content Distribution. The operating system near monoply will > doubtless find creative ways to use and expand the increased control > to control application interoperability (with the sealing function), > to control with hardware assistance the access to undocumented APIs > (no more reverse engineering, or using the APIs even if you do / could > reverse engineer). I think you are looking at it far too narrowly. Yes, this will provide many opportunities for Microsoft to write new kinds of software. But the same is true for every other software company! Financial software, web services, security software, accounting - anything that involves trust and security can benefit from TCPA. Look at the example I gave earlier for a TCPA based anonymous comm network. Multiply that a thousand fold. It's stupid to just look at what one company can do with this, without considering what a whole world of creative people can accomplish. Yes, it can make reverse engineering much more difficult. But I'd rather see people put their creative efforts into creating new products rather than copying and piggybacking off someone else's success. > So some of the already applications are immediately objectionable. > The scope for them to become more so with limited recourse or > technical counter-measures possible on the part of the user community > is huge. Probably the worst aspect is the central control -- it > really effectively does give remote root control to your machine to > people you don't want to trust. Also the control _will_ be abused for > monopolistic rent seeking and exclusionary policies to lock-out > competition. Don't forget the fact that microsoft views linux as a > major enemy as revealed by documents uncovered some the anti-trust > discovery process. Again, you need to justify this remote root control notion. I don't see it at all. Go back to your four functions of TCPA/Palladium - they were pretty accurate. Where was the remote root control in there? > In fact I'd say this is the biggest coming risk to personal freedom > since the days during the onset of the clipper chip / key escrow > looked like they stood some chance of becoming reality. I'd say that it is a powerful technology with an almost infinite number of potential applications. Being able to trust software running on a remote system is something that has never been possible before on the Internet. We can only begin to see what will be possible with this capability. From OoAmBiGuOuSQToO at msn.com Sun Aug 4 22:24:16 2002 From: OoAmBiGuOuSQToO at msn.com (OoAmBiGuOuSQToO at msn.com) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 02:24:16 -0300 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: <200208050524.CAA14494@server.tdf.com.br> Below is the result of your feedback form. It was submitted by (OoAmBiGuOuSQToO at msn.com) on Monday, August 5, 2002 at 02:24:16 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- message: Hey!! What's Up? I'm *Monica* 20/F/Arizona/Webcam & Pics. I'm *LIVE* on my *FREE* Webcam mostly 24/7 so if you wanna come in and chat or see a couple of my pics on my website please go to my Personal Homepage at http://www.freelivewebcamchicks.net and hopefully i'll talk to you in a bit hun! If you join and the webchat is already full im sorry, just wait like 5 minutes and then you'll be able to see me LIVE!! If you don't have a webcam of your own its okay!! You can still watch and chat with me then!! *Remember* this is my Personal Homepage so of course its *FREE*!!! *ByE* <333 Monica <333 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From adam at cypherspace.org Sun Aug 4 22:00:31 2002 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 06:00:31 +0100 Subject: dangers of TCPA/palladium Message-ID: <20020805060031.A518477@exeter.ac.uk> Like anonymous, I've been reading some of the palladium and TCPA docs. I think some of the current disagreements and not very strongly technology grounded responses to anonymous are due to the lack of any concise and informative papers describing TCPA and palladium. Not everyone has the energy to reverse engineer a detailed 300-odd pages of TCPA spec [1] back into high-level design considerations; the more manageably short business level TCPA FAQs [2], [3] are too heavily PR spun and biased to extract much useful information from. So so far I've read Ross Anderson's initial expose of the problem [4]; plus Ross's FAQ [5]. (And more, reading list continues below...). The relationship between TCPA, and Palladium is: - TCPA is the hardware and firmware (Compaq, Intel, IBM, HP, and Microsoft, plus 135+ other companies) - Palladium is a proposed OS feature-set based on the TCPA hardware (Microsoft) The main 4 features proposed in the TCPA/palladium scheme are: 1. secure bootstrap -- checksums of BIOS, firmware, privileged OS code are used to ensure the machine knows whether it is running certified software or not. This is rooted in hardware, so you can't by pass it by using virtualization, only by hardware hacking (*). 2. software attestation -- the hardware supports attesting to a third party whether a call comes from a certified software component as assured by the hardware described in feature 1. 3. hardware assisted compartmentalization -- CPU can run privileged software, and RAM can contain information that you can not examine, and can not modify. (Optionally the software source can be published, but that is not necessary, and if it's not you won't be able to reverse-engineer it as it can be encrypted for the CPU). 4. sealing -- applications can store data that can only be read by that application. This works based on more hardware -- the software state checksums developed in feature 1 are used by hardware to generate encryption keys. The hardware will refuse to generate the key unless the same software state is running. One good paper to understand the secure bootstrap is an academic paper "A Secure and Reliable Bootstrap architecture" [6]. It's interesting to see that one of the author's of [6] has said that TCPA as curently formed is a bad thing and is trying to influence TCPA to make it more open, to exhibit stronger privacy properties read his comments at [7]. There are a lot of potential negative implications of this technology, it represents a major shift in the balance of power comparable in magnitude to the clipper chip: 1. Potentially cedes control of the platform -- while the palladium docs talk about being able to boot the hardware with TCPA turned off, there exists possibility that with minor configuration change the hardware / firmware ensemble that forms palladium/TCPA could be configured to allow only certified OSes to boot, period. It's intereseting to note, if I read correctly, that the X-box (based on celeron processor and TCPA / TCPA-like features) does employ this feature. See for example: [8]. The documents talk about there being no barrier to certifying TCPA aware extensions to open-source OSes. However I'm having trouble figuring out how this would work. Perhaps IBM with it's linux support would build a TCPA extension for linux. Think about it -- the extension runs in privileged mode, and presumably won't be certified unless it passes some audit enforcing TCPA policies. (Such as keeping the owner of the machine from reading sealed documents, or reading the contents of DRM policy controlled documents without meeting the requirements for the DRM policy.) 2. DSS over-again -- a big aspect of the DSS reverse-engineering was to allow DVDs to be played in software on linux. The TCPA platform seems to have the primary goal of making a framework within which it is possible to build extensions to implement hardware tamper resistant DRM. (The DRM implementation would run in a hardware assisted code compartment as described in feature 3 above). So now where does that put open source platforms? Will they be able to read such DRM protected content? It seems likely that in the longer term the DRM platform will include video cards without access to video memory, perhaps encryption of the video signal out to the monitor, and of audio out to the speakers. (There are other existing schemes to do these things which dovetail into the likely TCPA DRM framework.) With the secure boot strap described in feature 1, the video card and so on are also part of the boot strap process, so the DRM system would have ready support from the platform for robustly refusing to play except on certain types of hardware. Similarly the application software which plays these DRM policy protected files and talks to the DRM policy module in the hardware assisted code compartment will itself be an application which uses the security boot-strapping features. So it won't be possible to write an application on for example linux to play these files without an audit and license etc from various content, DRM and OS cartels. This will lead to exactly the kind of thing Richard Stallman talked about in his prescient paper on the coming platform and right to develop competing software control wars [9]. 3. Privacy support is broken -- the "privacy" features while clearly attempts to defuse a re-run at the pentium serial number debacle, have not really fixed it's problems. You have to trust the "Trusted Third Party" privacy CA not to track you and not to collude with other CAs and software vendors. There are known solutions to this particular sub-problem, for example Stefan Brands digital credentials [10], which can be used to build a cryptographically assured privacy preserving PKI avoiding the linking problems arising from identity based and attribute certificates. 4. Strong enforcement for DMCA DRM excesses -- the types of DRM system which the platform enables stand a fair chance of providing high levels of enforcement for things which though strictly legally mandated (copyright licensing restrictions, limited number of plays of CDs / DVDs other disadvantageous schemes; inflexible and usurious software licensing), if enforced strictly would have deleterious effects on society and freedom. Copyright violation is widely practiced to a greater or less extent by just about all individuals. It is widely viewed as acceptable behavior. These social realities and personal freedoms are not taken into account or represented in the lobbying schemes which lead to the media cartels obtaining legal support for the erosion of users rights and expansionist power grabs in DMCA, WIPO etc. Some of these issues might be not so bad except for the track records, and obvious monopolistic tendencies and economic pressures on the entities who will have the root keys to the worlds computers. There will be no effect choice or competition due to existing near monopolies, or cartelisation in the hardware, operating system, and content distribution conglomerates. 5. Strong enforcement for the software renting model -- the types of software licensing policy enforcement that can be built with the platform will also start to strongly enable the software and object rental ideas. Again potentially these models have some merit except that they will be sabotaged by API lock out, where the root key owners will be able to charge monopoly rents for access to APIs. 6. Audits and certification become vastly more prevalent. Having had some involvement with software certification (FIPS 140-1 / CC) I can attest that this can be expensive exercises. It is unlikely that the open source community will be able to get software certified due to cost (the software is free, there is no business entity to claim ownership of the certification rights, and so no way to recuperate the costs). While certification where competition is able to function is a good thing, providing users with a transparency and needed assurance, the danger with tying audits to TCPA is that it will be another barrier to entry for small businesses, and for open source particularly. 7. Untrusted, unauditable software will be able to run without scrutiny inside the hardware assisted code compartments. Some of the documentation talks about open sourcing some aspects. While this may come to pass, but that sounded like the TOR (Trusted Operating Root); other extension modules also running in unauditable compartments will not be so published. 8. Gives away root control of your machine -- providing potentially universal remote control of users machines to any government agencies with access to the TCPA certification master keys, or policies allowing them to demand certifications on hostile code on demand. Central authorities are likely to be the only, or the default controllers of the firmware/software upgrade mechanism which comes as part of the secure bootstrap feature. 9. Provides a dangerously tempting target for government power-grabs -- governments will be very interested to be able to abuse the power provided by the platform, to gain access to it's keys to be able to insert remote backdoors, and/or to try to mandate government policy enforcement modules once such a platform is built. Think this is unrealistic? Recall clipper? The TCPA is a generic extensible policy enforcement architecture which can be configured to robustly enforce policies against the interests of the machine owner. Clipper, key-escrow the whole multi-year fight, at some point in the near future if some of the more egregious TCPA/Palladium framework features and configuration possibilities becomes widely deployed could be implemented after the fact, as a TCPA/Palladium policy extentsion which runs in the hardware assisted code compartment and is authenticated up to the hardware boot by the secure bootstrapping process. So what I've read so far, I think people's gut reactions are right -- that it's an aggressive and abmitious power grab by the evil empire -- the 3 cartels / monopolies surrounding PC hardware, Operating systems and Content Distribution. The operating system near monoply will doubtless find creative ways to use and expand the increased control to control application interoperability (with the sealing function), to control with hardware assistance the access to undocumented APIs (no more reverse engineering, or using the APIs even if you do / could reverse engineer). So some of the already applications are immediately objectionable. The scope for them to become more so with limited recourse or technical counter-measures possible on the part of the user community is huge. Probably the worst aspect is the central control -- it really effectively does give remote root control to your machine to people you don't want to trust. Also the control _will_ be abused for monopolistic rent seeking and exclusionary policies to lock-out competition. Don't forget the fact that microsoft views linux as a major enemy as revealed by documents uncovered some the anti-trust discovery process. In fact I'd say this is the biggest coming risk to personal freedom since the days during the onset of the clipper chip / key escrow looked like they stood some chance of becoming reality. Adam -- http://www.cypherspace.org/adam/ (*) It may be possible to hack the firmware, given access to source temporarily. [1] "Trusted Computing Platform Alliance (TCPA) Main Specification Version 1.1b", TCPA http://www.trustedcomputing.org/docs/main%20v1_1b.pdf [2] "TCPA Specification/TPM Q&A", TCPA http://www.trustedcomputing.org/docs/TPM_QA_071802.pdf [3] "TCPA Frequently Asked Questions Rev 5.0", TCPA http://www.trustedcomputing.org/docs/Website_TCPA%20FAQ_0703021.pdf [4] "Security in Open versus Closed Systems (The Dance of Boltzmann, Coase and Moore)", Ross Anderson, (Sections 4 and 5 only, rest is unrelated) ftp://ftp.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/rja14/toulouse.pdf [5] "TCPA / Palladium Frequently Asked Questions Version 1.0" http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/tcpa-faq.html [6] "A Secure and Reliable Bootstrap Architecture" @inproceedings{Arbaugh:97:secure-bootstrap, author = "Bill Arbaugh and Dave Farber and Jonathan Smith", title = "A Secure and Reliable Bootstrap Architecture", booktitle = "Proceedings of the IEEE Symposium on Security and Privacy", pages = 65-71, note = "Also available as \url{http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~waa/aegis.ps}" } [7] "The TCPA; What's wrong; What's right and what to do about", William Arbaugh, 20 Jul 2002 http://www.cs.umd.edu/~waa/TCPA/TCPA-goodnbad.html [8] "Keeping Secrets in Hardware: the Micrsoft Xbox Case Study", Andre "bunnie" Huang, 26 May 2002 http://web.mit.edu/bunnie/www/proj/anatak/AIM-2002-008.pdf [9] "The Right to Read", Richard Stallman, Feb 1997, Communications of the ACM (Volume 40, Number 2). http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html [10] Stefan Brands Book "Rethinking Public Key Infrastructures and Digital Certificates - Building in Privacy", MIT Press, Aug 2000. http://www.xs4all.nl/~brands/ Number of other technical and semi-technical papers on that page. --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From adam at cypherspace.org Sun Aug 4 22:48:01 2002 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 06:48:01 +0100 Subject: "trust me" pseudonyms in TCPA (Re: Other uses of TCPA) In-Reply-To: ; from eresrch@eskimo.com on Sun, Aug 04, 2002 at 07:38:37PM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20020805064801.A532566@exeter.ac.uk> I haven't read the TCPA detailed spec yet (next on TCPA/Palladium list of reading material), but this bit I can infer I think: > :Mike Rosing wrote: > :> Who owns PRIVEK? Who controls PRIVEK? That's who own's TCPA. > : > :PRIVEK, the TPM's private key, is generated on-chip. It never leaves > :the chip. No one ever learns its value. Given this fact, who would > :you say owns and controls it? > > OK, so why can't any joe hacker create their own PRIVEK? _nobody_ knows > it's value? Then how can anyone know if a chip is "real" or "imitation". > What happens when the motherboard dies again? PRIVEK was copied out of > the chip to some "fob" right? I thought you said the manufacturer put > the keys in at the factory. The corresponding public key is certified by the secure hardware manufacturer, I think. Then they have this privacy CA which accepts requests signed by the platform's signature key, and gives in return a certified pseudonym of the users choice. They claim this gives privacy, which it only does if you trusted the "privacy CA" -- the privacy CA can link all of your anonymous and pseudonymous credentials. (Anonymous may want to straighten out the different keys names -- I think there are some encryption, some signature, some sealing keys derived from other secret keys and the checksum of the application and OS / firmware etc.) Brands digital credentials could be used to fix this sub-problem I think. They put in the privacy CA thing as a defense against the PR problems Intel had with the pentium serial number. The FAQs at www.trustedpc.org talk about this arguing how this is better than pentium serial number at avoiding linkability. The documentation problem I find is there isn't much documentation available which is technical except for the 330 page spec which drops right down to implementation details in RFC standards style. Adam -- http://www.cypherspace.org/adam/ From eresrch at eskimo.com Mon Aug 5 07:19:39 2002 From: eresrch at eskimo.com (Mike Rosing) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 07:19:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: dangers of TCPA/palladium In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Aug 2002, AARG! Anonymous wrote: > Adam Back writes: > > > 2. DSS over-again -- a big aspect of the DSS reverse-engineering was > > to allow DVDs to be played in software on linux. The TCPA platform > > seems to have the primary goal of making a framework within which it > > is possible to build extensions to implement hardware tamper resistant > > DRM. (The DRM implementation would run in a hardware assisted code > > compartment as described in feature 3 above). So now where does that > > put open source platforms? Will they be able to read such DRM > > protected content? It seems likely that in the longer term the DRM > > platform will include video cards without access to video memory, > > perhaps encryption of the video signal out to the monitor, and of > > audio out to the speakers. (There are other existing schemes to do > > these things which dovetail into the likely TCPA DRM framework.) > > > > With the secure boot strap described in feature 1, the video card and > > so on are also part of the boot strap process, so the DRM system would > > have ready support from the platform for robustly refusing to play > > except on certain types of hardware. Similarly the application > > software which plays these DRM policy protected files and talks to the > > DRM policy module in the hardware assisted code compartment will > > itself be an application which uses the security boot-strapping > > features. So it won't be possible to write an application on for > > example linux to play these files without an audit and license etc > > from various content, DRM and OS cartels. This will lead to exactly > > the kind of thing Richard Stallman talked about in his prescient paper > > on the coming platform and right to develop competing software control > > wars [9]. > > I think this analysis is largely correct, except that it won't be > as monolithic as you make it sound. There won't be just one content > supplier who judges all software, that's obviously impossible. Rather, > each different supplier will make its own determination of which software > you can trust. And likewise for non-DRM applications. Banks will decide > which banking software to trust. Game networks will decide which game > clients to trust, etc. > > > 3. Privacy support is broken -- the "privacy" features while clearly > > attempts to defuse a re-run at the pentium serial number debacle, have > > not really fixed it's problems. You have to trust the "Trusted Third > > Party" privacy CA not to track you and not to collude with other CAs > > and software vendors. There are known solutions to this particular > > sub-problem, for example Stefan Brands digital credentials [10], which > > can be used to build a cryptographically assured privacy preserving > > PKI avoiding the linking problems arising from identity based and > > attribute certificates. > > I agree that it would be nice to see more flexibility there. The Chaum > blinding patent expires in 2005, so maybe around then we can start seeing > privacy CA's that use blind signatures, which solves that problem. > The spec is obviously trying hard to protect privacy, it's just that > the mechanisms to do it right are extremely complex compared to the > straightforward way. > > > > 4. Strong enforcement for DMCA DRM excesses -- the types of DRM system > > which the platform enables stand a fair chance of providing high > > levels of enforcement for things which though strictly legally > > mandated (copyright licensing restrictions, limited number of plays of > > CDs / DVDs other disadvantageous schemes; inflexible and usurious > > software licensing), if enforced strictly would have deleterious > > effects on society and freedom. Copyright violation is widely > > practiced to a greater or less extent by just about all individuals. > > It is widely viewed as acceptable behavior. These social realities > > and personal freedoms are not taken into account or represented in the > > lobbying schemes which lead to the media cartels obtaining legal > > support for the erosion of users rights and expansionist power grabs > > in DMCA, WIPO etc. > > > > Some of these issues might be not so bad except for the track records, > > and obvious monopolistic tendencies and economic pressures on the > > entities who will have the root keys to the worlds computers. There > > will be no effect choice or competition due to existing near > > monopolies, or cartelisation in the hardware, operating system, and > > content distribution conglomerates. > > Nobody's putting a gun to your head and making you download content. > If you can't agree to the conditions, go do something else. There are > much worse things that can happen in the world than that copyright > becomes enforceable. > > Why not give the market a chance? Company A provides the data with > Draconian DRM restrictions; company B gives you more flexibility in what > you do. All else being equal, people will prefer company B. So they > can charge more. In this way a balance will be reached depending on how > much people really value this kind of flexibility and how much they are > willing to pay for it. You and I don't get to decide, the people who > are making the decisions about what content to buy will decide. > > And nobody's got the root key to my computer. You make this claim in many > places in the document. What exactly is this "root key" in TCPA terms? > The endorsement key? It's private part is generated on-chip and never > leaves the chip! I agree that the market can have the chance!! Just don't make it anything to do with the law! If people want to buy platforms with TCPA built in they should be allowed to, and those who don't should be free to choose that way. You now claim there are at least 2 keys that don't leave the chip, but if you are going to recover anything encrypted by those keys you had better have them off chip when the chip dies. > > 7. Untrusted, unauditable software will be able to run without > > scrutiny inside the hardware assisted code compartments. Some of the > > documentation talks about open sourcing some aspects. While this may > > come to pass, but that sounded like the TOR (Trusted Operating Root); > > other extension modules also running in unauditable compartments will > > not be so published. > > This part I don't understand too much; it's not a TCPA concept, and there > is little known about Palladium. Supposedly the idea is that this is a > place that code can run without being touched by debuggers or viruses. > I don't know what happens if a virus gets itself loaded into this area, > if that is even possible. Maybe all the different compartments are > isolated from each other. > > Does this seem like a bad feature to you? D'oh!! Obviously it's a bad feature - it gives my computer to some unknown entity. In fact, it gives the entire network of computers to one entity - it creates a huge monster of unequal power. I can sure see why a government like Iraq would love to have this feature. Or China. Or the US. You could run a special program that nobody can stop or find or know about. That's *POWER*. It is difficult to understate how bad that is. > > 8. Gives away root control of your machine -- providing potentially > > universal remote control of users machines to any government agencies > > with access to the TCPA certification master keys, or policies > > allowing them to demand certifications on hostile code on demand. > > Central authorities are likely to be the only, or the default > > controllers of the firmware/software upgrade mechanism which comes as > > part of the secure bootstrap feature. > > Now you're starting to go paranoid. All the TCPA certification master > keys do is to certify that a system is TCPA compliant. They don't have a > remote control over your machine! They are more analogous to Verisign > in the X.509 world. Last I checked they hadn't taken over my box. > As far as the field upgrade, it has to be authorized by the owner. > > I'm disappointed to see this kind of fantasizing in what has been a > well grounded document until now. If you're going to make this kind > of charge, that TCPA gives a universal remote control to government, > you need to back it up in detail. Look, if there can be a section of code that only the manufacturer has access to, then that section of code could have an internet download section that sucks "evil intent" from someplace the manufacturer (or someone who's broken into them) has designated. It's not that we're saying it'd be done on purpose up front, but somebody some day will figure it out and all the tools are there to make it happen. Sometimes a good imagination can save you from having to be paranoid. > > 9. Provides a dangerously tempting target for government power-grabs > > -- governments will be very interested to be able to abuse the power > > provided by the platform, to gain access to it's keys to be able to > > insert remote backdoors, and/or to try to mandate government policy > > enforcement modules once such a platform is built. Think this is > > unrealistic? Recall clipper? The TCPA is a generic extensible policy > > enforcement architecture which can be configured to robustly enforce > > policies against the interests of the machine owner. Clipper, > > key-escrow the whole multi-year fight, at some point in the near > > future if some of the more egregious TCPA/Palladium framework features > > and configuration possibilities becomes widely deployed could be > > implemented after the fact, as a TCPA/Palladium policy extentsion > > which runs in the hardware assisted code compartment and is > > authenticated up to the hardware boot by the secure bootstrapping > > process. > > I don't agree with your characterization that TCPA enforces policies > against the owner's interests. He has to voluntarily agree to everything, > from turning on TCPA, to booting a TCPA compliant program, to running > an application which some third party will trust, to accepting data from > that third party under agreed-upon conditions. If at any step he didn't > feel that what he was doing was in his interests, he can stop and do > something else. > > When you walk into a store and pay money for food, is that store enforcing > policies against your interests? Only from the most shallow perspective, > for if such policies were not widely enforced, you and I and everyone > else would starve. We all participate voluntarily in these institutions. > Each payment we make is in our interests. And the same thing is true > if you receive some data with conditions on how it is manipulated. > > As far as the concern about changes, I think the smart thing to do is > to fight the bad and promote the good. Definitely we should oppose any > proposal to make TCPA non-voluntary, to force people to boot a certain > OS, to limit what they can do on their computers. But presently none > of those features are in TCPA. Rather than saying TCPA is bad because > someone could make all these hypothetical changes, it makes more sense > to judge TCPA on its own, as a system that emphasizes user choice. > > Involuntary TCPA is bad, voluntary is good. So we should not fight TCPA, > we should fight proposals to make it involuntary. Then we agree completely! So long as no laws are passed around TCPA, and it is not linked to any copyright laws, or mandated in any way, then there's no problem! IF TCPA gives people something they want, and they understand how it works, I don't see anything wrong with it. I do see a problem in it being written into any laws because the potential for abuse is huge. > > So what I've read so far, I think people's gut reactions are right -- > > that it's an aggressive and abmitious power grab by the evil empire -- > > the 3 cartels / monopolies surrounding PC hardware, Operating systems > > and Content Distribution. The operating system near monoply will > > doubtless find creative ways to use and expand the increased control > > to control application interoperability (with the sealing function), > > to control with hardware assistance the access to undocumented APIs > > (no more reverse engineering, or using the APIs even if you do / could > > reverse engineer). > > I think you are looking at it far too narrowly. Yes, this will provide > many opportunities for Microsoft to write new kinds of software. But the > same is true for every other software company! Financial software, web > services, security software, accounting - anything that involves trust > and security can benefit from TCPA. Look at the example I gave earlier > for a TCPA based anonymous comm network. Multiply that a thousand fold. > It's stupid to just look at what one company can do with this, without > considering what a whole world of creative people can accomplish. > > Yes, it can make reverse engineering much more difficult. But I'd rather > see people put their creative efforts into creating new products rather > than copying and piggybacking off someone else's success. It will also make backups really expensive. > > So some of the already applications are immediately objectionable. > > The scope for them to become more so with limited recourse or > > technical counter-measures possible on the part of the user community > > is huge. Probably the worst aspect is the central control -- it > > really effectively does give remote root control to your machine to > > people you don't want to trust. Also the control _will_ be abused for > > monopolistic rent seeking and exclusionary policies to lock-out > > competition. Don't forget the fact that microsoft views linux as a > > major enemy as revealed by documents uncovered some the anti-trust > > discovery process. > > Again, you need to justify this remote root control notion. I don't > see it at all. Go back to your four functions of TCPA/Palladium - > they were pretty accurate. Where was the remote root control in there? The only way it works is if there can be code the user doesn't control the loading of. That means somebody else controls the machine. It's pretty basic. > > In fact I'd say this is the biggest coming risk to personal freedom > > since the days during the onset of the clipper chip / key escrow > > looked like they stood some chance of becoming reality. > > I'd say that it is a powerful technology with an almost infinite number of > potential applications. Being able to trust software running on a remote > system is something that has never been possible before on the Internet. > We can only begin to see what will be possible with this capability. Horsepucky. I can run trusted software right now. *I* wrote it, that's why I trust it! I don't need a dongle on the motherboard to ship trusted software. An external dongle works just fine. And I can check the signature of source code I compile to be sure the author has sent me the correct code - I trust it will do what it's supposed to because the encrypted hash matches the source hash. going back to the key stuff - you've changed the names, but what it boils down to is that *somebody* has to have a copy of the internal keys used to encrypt data by the TPM. If it's not the user, who is it? That's the person who owns the data, because they own the keys. I'd say Adam did a nice job nailing TCPA to the wall. Now let's see if it dies slowly or quickly. Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike From eresrch at eskimo.com Mon Aug 5 07:42:45 2002 From: eresrch at eskimo.com (Mike Rosing) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 07:42:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "trust me" pseudonyms in TCPA (Re: Other uses of TCPA) In-Reply-To: <20020805064801.A532566@exeter.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Aug 2002, Adam Back wrote: > I haven't read the TCPA detailed spec yet (next on TCPA/Palladium list > of reading material), but this bit I can infer I think: I don't have time to read it, but I do appreciate the effort you've put into this so far! > The corresponding public key is certified by the secure hardware > manufacturer, I think. Are all the keys certified? Are any copied outright? > Then they have this privacy CA which accepts requests signed by the > platform's signature key, and gives in return a certified pseudonym of > the users choice. They claim this gives privacy, which it only does > if you trusted the "privacy CA" -- the privacy CA can link all of your > anonymous and pseudonymous credentials. (Anonymous may want to > straighten out the different keys names -- I think there are some > encryption, some signature, some sealing keys derived from other > secret keys and the checksum of the application and OS / firmware > etc.) > > Brands digital credentials could be used to fix this sub-problem I > think. One key for encryption, one key for signature, one key for checksums, and one key to rule them all!! :-) > They put in the privacy CA thing as a defense against the PR problems > Intel had with the pentium serial number. The FAQs at > www.trustedpc.org talk about this arguing how this is better than > pentium serial number at avoiding linkability. > > The documentation problem I find is there isn't much documentation > available which is technical except for the 330 page spec which drops > right down to implementation details in RFC standards style. I think that explaining it in a mathematical or technical abstract way would give competitors an advantage. Seems like the consortium that's building it can keep these details proprietary and just sell the thing on the market to whoever wants to buy it - no need for all this FAQ stuff anyway. They only need publicity to get past the congress or MP's. I guess I don't see why the spec is public if the purpose is to create a platform that's just a toy. But I'm confused, so keep at it and maybe I'll figure something out! Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike From rah at shipwright.com Mon Aug 5 06:15:09 2002 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 09:15:09 -0400 Subject: Jury rules for Paul Guthrie's Defense in ZixIt's $700mm suit (was Re: GigaLaw.com Daily News, August 5, 2002) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If anyone can get past the "No Cookie" monster to the actual text of this link, let me know. :-). Cheers, RAH At 5:36 AM -0600 on 8/5/02, GigaLaw.com wrote: > Jury Rules for Defense in $700 Million Net Defamation Case > In one of the first trials in the nation to address Internet > defamation, a Dallas County, Texas, jury rejected a $700 million suit by > an Internet company that claimed it was harmed by negative electronic > messages. Dallas' ZixIt alleged that Paul Guthrie, formerly a vice > president with Visa, posted more than 400 anonymous messages, many > negative, about ZixIt on a Yahoo Internet message board, causing ZixIt's > stock price to drop. > Read the article: law.com @ > >http://www.law.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=OpenMarket/Xcelerate/View&c=LawArticle&cid=1028320303259&t=LawArticleTech -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From nelson at crynwr.com Mon Aug 5 06:38:10 2002 From: nelson at crynwr.com (Russell Nelson) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 09:38:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <15694.32620.956826.906819@desk.crynwr.com> AARG!Anonymous writes: > So don't read too much into the fact that a bunch of anonymous postings > have suddenly started appearing from one particular remailer. For your > information, I have sent over 400 anonymous messages in the past year > to cypherpunks, coderpunks, sci.crypt and the cryptography list (35 > of them on TCPA related topics). We have, of course, no way to verify this fact, since your messages are not cryptographically signed. For someone who claims to be knowledgable about cryptography, this seems like a suspicious omission. -- -russ nelson http://russnelson.com | New Internet Acronym: Crynwr sells support for free software | PGPok | 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315 268 1925 voice | IANAE Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | +1 315 268 9201 FAX | I Am Not An Economist From remailer at aarg.net Mon Aug 5 12:30:11 2002 From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG!Anonymous) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 12:30:11 -0700 Subject: Suggested entry into the TCPA spec Message-ID: <0e7a92034f27922f4e9ef6fc2d085eef@aarg.net> Here is a suggestion for how to appraoch the TCPA spec based on the parts I have found to be relatively good explanations. The spec is available from http://www.trustedcomputing.org/docs/main%20v1_1b.pdf. First read the first few pages up to page 7. This provides an overview and a block diagram, although at this point not all the terms will be familiar. One hint: the "root of trust for measurement" is the set of hardware which has to be working for the boot measurement process to work: the CPU, the TPM, the part of the BIOS that deals with measurements, the motherboard, the secure connections of the chips to the motherboard. If all this stuff is OK then the measurements will be accurate. (Measurements basically are hashes of code and of machine configuration status.) The "root of trust for reporting" is the endorsement key, or more fundamentally the cert on the endorsement key. The cert is issued by the manufacturer, AKA the "TPM Entity" or TPME. That's what makes other people believe your attestations. And the "root of trust for storage" is the storage root key, described in the section on protected storage. There are a few more pages of introduction which aren't too clear, then a long section of data structures which should be skipped until you need to reference them. This brings you to page 97, authorization and ownership. I haven't really studied this part. Probably just read this one page to get an idea of what is involved. I still need to learn more about this. I'd skip on to pages 136-137, on the measurement process and the PCRs which hold the results of the measurement. Then I'd read pages 145-150 on protected storage. This part is pretty well written. It is a reasonably self contained part of the TPM functionality. You just need to know a little bit about the PCRs from the earlier section to understand how data is locked to the specific program which is running. Then I'd read page 261 on the endorsement key, and then 267-269 on how it is used to create a pseudonymous identity. This is the part about communicating with the Privacy CA. BTW an expert told me he has concerns about possible security loopholes in this protocol, but he is communicating with TCPA about them. I think if you just read these selections, about 15 pages, you will have a much better idea of how the spec works. Then you can read some of the specific API descriptions to see more details about the functionality. There is also a glossary at the end which can be helpful for some (but not all) of the terminology. There is another spec, http://www.trustedcomputing.org/docs/TCPA_PCSpecificSpecification_v100.pdf that describes the specific register and trap binding for implementing the TCPA API on Intel PCs. It is much shorter but it is pretty incomprehensible until you have at least read the basics of the main spec. --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From dog3 at eruditium.org Mon Aug 5 09:55:57 2002 From: dog3 at eruditium.org (cubic-dog) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 12:55:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: From szunr at szunr.sk Mon Aug 5 04:09:38 2002 From: szunr at szunr.sk (szunr) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 13:09:38 +0200 (CEST) Subject: A WinXP patch Message-ID: <20020805110938.19F90229B@digi.army.sk> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: unnamed.html Type: text/html Size: 167 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- ****************************************************** POZNAMKA: priloha s menom disable.bat bola odstranena, nakolko sa jedna o potencionalne nebezpecny subor, ktory umoznuje sirenie virusov. ******************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: msie.5.0.local.files.txt Type: application/octet-stream Size: 3531 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dog3 at eruditium.org Mon Aug 5 10:23:50 2002 From: dog3 at eruditium.org (cubic-dog) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 13:23:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: dangers of TCPA/palladium In-Reply-To: Message-ID: What good is this TCPA stuff anyway? I haven't read anything, pro or con or ambivilent that shows me some clear advandage. It isn't going to fix anything near as I can tell, and with all other technology which has a primary purpose of restricting access, it will undoubtably cause some trouble. So, what's the point? Seems like a grand waste of effort to me. From jamesd at echeque.com Mon Aug 5 13:59:24 2002 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 13:59:24 -0700 Subject: Other uses of TCPA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3D4E84BC.7221.179C19E@localhost> -- On 4 Aug 2002 at 14:30, AARG! Anonymous wrote: > All I am really asking for is someone to acknowledge that I have > provided information to them which makes them see TCPA as less > dangerous and damaging than they had thought based on the false > information which has been circulating. I don't see how anyone > can deny this. The caricature of TCPA that most people believe > is very bad. The truth is not so bad. Logically, you *have* to > believe that TCPA is not as bad as you thought, when you are > provided with the truth. The spec is OK. The fact that it appeared at the same time as extraordinarily overreaching IP law is damning. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG rwdGfQyOtFA6WkAqxu91fMbC8sahZDn51gg6yvCS 21B3dZ6Ah+eyjxj5hj98h+8bNcUWAprErYOtDB1kH From jamesd at echeque.com Mon Aug 5 14:11:49 2002 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 14:11:49 -0700 Subject: Other uses of TCPA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3D4E87A5.498.18521BC@localhost> -- On 4 Aug 2002 at 14:30, AARG! Anonymous wrote: > All I am really asking for is someone to acknowledge that I have > provided information to them which makes them see TCPA as less > dangerous and damaging than they had thought based on the false > information which has been circulating. I don't see how anyone > can deny this. The caricature of TCPA that most people believe > is very bad. The truth is not so bad. Logically, you *have* to > believe that TCPA is not as bad as you thought, when you are > provided with the truth. Your account of TCPA is that smooth and reassuring account given in the TCPA FAQ http://www.trustedcomputing.org/docs/TPM_QA_071802.pdf When I read the more technical account http://www.trustedcomputing.org/docs/main%20v1_1b.pdf , and http://www.trustedcomputing.org/docs/TCPA_PCSpecificSpecification_v100 .pdf , I do not see anything so reassuring. I see scary phrases like "root of trust". These more technical specs give lots of irrelevant detail, and very little detail that is actually informative. We get a mixture of smooth sales talk, and blind-em-with-bafflegab technical vagueness. Some of the details in the technical spec seem inconsistent with the smooth and reassuring account. For example: : : "The replacement of code in the platform must be : : performed by a platform manufacturer approved method : : or agent. This allows the manufacturer to establish : : an upgrade method ...." This seems to the say that the TPM has non read write storage containing non volatile code that is privileged, and can be changed, but not however by the user. This would imply that the TPM could be used to enforce any policy whatever, and not necessarily a policy so benevolent as that promised in the sales talk versions of the white papers. You have told us that the TPM is turned off by default, but "off" is merely an off flag, not a full physical off. According to the technical spec : : "The core root of trust measurement (CRTM) MUST be an : : immutable feature of the platform's initialization : : code that executes on platform reset." This is not what most people mean by "off". It provides the physical capability to prohibit unauthorized software from running, even if the nice salesman tells us that capability will never be used. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG AxOIYHF+xyLE0spg6FCaankLLpAULiyK8SWbS3TD 2C/pKtcxdtkar26efao8o6HyGD6ilcST8O9G1KpB0 From Wilfred at Cryogen.com Mon Aug 5 12:55:56 2002 From: Wilfred at Cryogen.com (Wilfred L. Guerin) Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 14:55:56 -0500 Subject: Personal Mind Control Devices Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020805145556.00b4e0a8@127.0.0.1> Looks like these could be the gateway to personalized mind control devices... http://www.voodoomachine.com/?wid=1048&bid=0 We all know about the various pattern components of neural cognition, however, to have a personal device with such capabilities could not only serve the psychostimulative purposes as suggested, but also prove as a gateway accessor to lower-level cognition modifiers... http://www.voodoomachine.com/?wid=1048&bid=0 VoodooMachine Impressions? -Wilfred L. Guerin Wilfred at Cryogen.com AIM/MSN/YP: "WilfredGuerin" (New Orleans) From jays at panix.com Mon Aug 5 12:37:29 2002 From: jays at panix.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 15:37:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: dangers of TCPA/palladium In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Aug 2002, AARG!Anonymous wrote: < ... /> > Why not give the market a chance? Company A provides the data with > Draconian DRM restrictions; company B gives you more flexibility in what > you do. All else being equal, people will prefer company B. So they > can charge more. In this way a balance will be reached depending on how > much people really value this kind of flexibility and how much they are > willing to pay for it. You and I don't get to decide, the people who > are making the decisions about what content to buy will decide. I am much in sympathy with the "Give the market a chance." slogan. But TCPA/Palladium/DRM and Jack Valenti are not. Nor are you. Phillips could make and sell a device, even the sort of trammeled computer that Jack Valenti wishes to be universally imposed by law, within one year from today. Indeed, IBM, Sun, Apple, Dell, Sony, and any number of other companies could have sold such a device any day they wished over the past fifteen years. Yet they have not. So the market has decided, by your standard. The decision is clear: No DRM. > > And nobody's got the root key to my computer. You make this claim in many > places in the document. What exactly is this "root key" in TCPA terms? > The endorsement key? It's private part is generated on-chip and never > leaves the chip! Of course, the minimal demand of the pro-DRM forces is to have root on every machine in the world, with evasion of their root control a felony. You support DRM lock stock and barrel, no matter your demonstrably inaccurate claims that 1. You are all for the market. 2. Well, DRM is not so bad, see, RIAA-MPAA-AAP will give us all root on their machines, so it is all equal! 3. Why, your computer will be exactly the same under DRM as it is today, except better! > > > 5. Strong enforcement for the software renting model -- the types of > > software licensing policy enforcement that can be built with the > > platform will also start to strongly enable the software and object > > rental ideas. Again potentially these models have some merit except > > that they will be sabotaged by API lock out, where the root key owners > > will be able to charge monopoly rents for access to APIs. > > I don't follow this. What root key owners? What APIs? Could you say > more about how TCPA will help with software rental? Today Microsoft and its script children have root on many machines, yet there is no single root password for them. Rather there is a system, which includes 1. agreements with Dell, IBM, etc., to only offer for sale hardware with Microsoft OSes loaded 2. hardware that only runs right with a Microsoft OS 3. extortionate forced "license agreements" with end-users 4. hypnotic control of the mass media, which always claim that "After all, you will have to run only Microsoft OSes forever." 5. hypnotic control of the managers who "decide" which OS to run, which managers always claim that "After all, we have to run only Microsoft OSes forever." Of course, this hypnosis is mainly self-hypnosis, with only trim-tab level direction by Microsoft, Dell, IBM, Sun, Apple, etc.. oo--JS. > > > 6. Audits and certification become vastly more prevalent. Having had > > some involvement with software certification (FIPS 140-1 / CC) I can > > attest that this can be expensive exercises. It is unlikely that the > > open source community will be able to get software certified due to > > cost (the software is free, there is no business entity to claim > > ownership of the certification rights, and so no way to recuperate the > > costs). While certification where competition is able to function is > > a good thing, providing users with a transparency and needed > > assurance, the danger with tying audits to TCPA is that it will be > > another barrier to entry for small businesses, and for open source > > particularly. > > This is a good point, but again it depends on the specific content > realm. There are not just one or two - there are thousands of kinds > of content, or even more. Not everyone is going to require FIPS 140 > levels of certification! > > But possibly Disney and Sony will. My guess is that if there ever is > a Linux program that will play their movies, it will be because those > companies contracted to get it written. You may see this in many contexts > - software applications don't get certified, rather they are supplied > by the vendors, or the vendors arrange to get them done. > > > 7. Untrusted, unauditable software will be able to run without > > scrutiny inside the hardware assisted code compartments. Some of the > > documentation talks about open sourcing some aspects. While this may > > come to pass, but that sounded like the TOR (Trusted Operating Root); > > other extension modules also running in unauditable compartments will > > not be so published. > > This part I don't understand too much; it's not a TCPA concept, and there > is little known about Palladium. Supposedly the idea is that this is a > place that code can run without being touched by debuggers or viruses. > I don't know what happens if a virus gets itself loaded into this area, > if that is even possible. Maybe all the different compartments are > isolated from each other. > > Does this seem like a bad feature to you? > > > 8. Gives away root control of your machine -- providing potentially > > universal remote control of users machines to any government agencies > > with access to the TCPA certification master keys, or policies > > allowing them to demand certifications on hostile code on demand. > > Central authorities are likely to be the only, or the default > > controllers of the firmware/software upgrade mechanism which comes as > > part of the secure bootstrap feature. > > Now you're starting to go paranoid. All the TCPA certification master > keys do is to certify that a system is TCPA compliant. They don't have a > remote control over your machine! They are more analogous to Verisign > in the X.509 world. Last I checked they hadn't taken over my box. > As far as the field upgrade, it has to be authorized by the owner. > > I'm disappointed to see this kind of fantasizing in what has been a > well grounded document until now. If you're going to make this kind > of charge, that TCPA gives a universal remote control to government, > you need to back it up in detail. > > > > 9. Provides a dangerously tempting target for government power-grabs > > -- governments will be very interested to be able to abuse the power > > provided by the platform, to gain access to it's keys to be able to > > insert remote backdoors, and/or to try to mandate government policy > > enforcement modules once such a platform is built. Think this is > > unrealistic? Recall clipper? The TCPA is a generic extensible policy > > enforcement architecture which can be configured to robustly enforce > > policies against the interests of the machine owner. Clipper, > > key-escrow the whole multi-year fight, at some point in the near > > future if some of the more egregious TCPA/Palladium framework features > > and configuration possibilities becomes widely deployed could be > > implemented after the fact, as a TCPA/Palladium policy extentsion > > which runs in the hardware assisted code compartment and is > > authenticated up to the hardware boot by the secure bootstrapping > > process. > > I don't agree with your characterization that TCPA enforces policies > against the owner's interests. He has to voluntarily agree to everything, > from turning on TCPA, to booting a TCPA compliant program, to running > an application which some third party will trust, to accepting data from > that third party under agreed-upon conditions. If at any step he didn't > feel that what he was doing was in his interests, he can stop and do > something else. > > When you walk into a store and pay money for food, is that store enforcing > policies against your interests? Only from the most shallow perspective, > for if such policies were not widely enforced, you and I and everyone > else would starve. We all participate voluntarily in these institutions. > Each payment we make is in our interests. And the same thing is true > if you receive some data with conditions on how it is manipulated. > > As far as the concern about changes, I think the smart thing to do is > to fight the bad and promote the good. Definitely we should oppose any > proposal to make TCPA non-voluntary, to force people to boot a certain > OS, to limit what they can do on their computers. But presently none > of those features are in TCPA. Rather than saying TCPA is bad because > someone could make all these hypothetical changes, it makes more sense > to judge TCPA on its own, as a system that emphasizes user choice. > > Involuntary TCPA is bad, voluntary is good. So we should not fight TCPA, > we should fight proposals to make it involuntary. > > > So what I've read so far, I think people's gut reactions are right -- > > that it's an aggressive and abmitious power grab by the evil empire -- > > the 3 cartels / monopolies surrounding PC hardware, Operating systems > > and Content Distribution. The operating system near monoply will > > doubtless find creative ways to use and expand the increased control > > to control application interoperability (with the sealing function), > > to control with hardware assistance the access to undocumented APIs > > (no more reverse engineering, or using the APIs even if you do / could > > reverse engineer). > > I think you are looking at it far too narrowly. Yes, this will provide > many opportunities for Microsoft to write new kinds of software. But the > same is true for every other software company! Financial software, web > services, security software, accounting - anything that involves trust > and security can benefit from TCPA. Look at the example I gave earlier > for a TCPA based anonymous comm network. Multiply that a thousand fold. > It's stupid to just look at what one company can do with this, without > considering what a whole world of creative people can accomplish. > > Yes, it can make reverse engineering much more difficult. But I'd rather > see people put their creative efforts into creating new products rather > than copying and piggybacking off someone else's success. > > > So some of the already applications are immediately objectionable. > > The scope for them to become more so with limited recourse or > > technical counter-measures possible on the part of the user community > > is huge. Probably the worst aspect is the central control -- it > > really effectively does give remote root control to your machine to > > people you don't want to trust. Also the control _will_ be abused for > > monopolistic rent seeking and exclusionary policies to lock-out > > competition. Don't forget the fact that microsoft views linux as a > > major enemy as revealed by documents uncovered some the anti-trust > > discovery process. > > Again, you need to justify this remote root control notion. I don't > see it at all. Go back to your four functions of TCPA/Palladium - > they were pretty accurate. Where was the remote root control in there? > > > In fact I'd say this is the biggest coming risk to personal freedom > > since the days during the onset of the clipper chip / key escrow > > looked like they stood some chance of becoming reality. > > I'd say that it is a powerful technology with an almost infinite number of > potential applications. Being able to trust software running on a remote > system is something that has never been possible before on the Internet. > We can only begin to see what will be possible with this capability. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > The Cryptography Mailing List > Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From reklam01 at kobiline.com Mon Aug 5 05:43:59 2002 From: reklam01 at kobiline.com (Bu bir reklamdir) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 15:43:59 +0300 Subject: Merhaba; Message-ID: <200208051243.g75ChuR11209@waste.minder.net> Sevgili internet Kullanicilari; Bu mail belki sizleri rahatsiz edecek, belkide ilginizi �ekecek. Eger rahatsiz ettiyse sizlerden �ok �ok �z�r diliyoruz. Biz Avrupadan Erotic �r�n ithal ederek online satisini yapan bir firmayiz. �lkemizde hen�z bir takim tabularin yikilmadigini biliyoruz. Fakat i�inde olabilmek i�in yogun �abalar verdigimiz Avrupa birligi �lkelerinde bu �r�nler marketlerde satiliyor. Hatta Amerikal� �nl� manken Pamela Enderson'a sevgilisinin y�zlerce seks malzemesi hediye etti�ini duymu�sunuzdur. Artik K�resellesen d�nyada bizlerde yerimizi almak ve kisacik hayatimiza mutluluklari sigdirmak zorundayiz. Cinsel yasamin; insan hayatindaki yerini biliyorsaniz? Cinselligin sizin icin �nemini biliyorsaniz? Sizi web sitemizi gezmeye davet ediyoruz. Saygilarimizla Abana Erotik Market www.abanashop.com.tr.tc From remailer at aarg.net Mon Aug 5 16:25:26 2002 From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 16:25:26 -0700 Subject: dangers of TCPA/palladium Message-ID: <09fdc16bc6a040e13686c9150aca01d9@aarg.net> Adam Back writes: > To address privacy with for example Brands digital credentials, the > underlying cryptography may be harder to understand, or at least less > familiar, but I don't think using a toolkit based on Brands digital > credentials would be significantly harder than using an identity or > attribute based PKI toolkit. Similar for Chaum's credentials or other > approach. Sure, but how many pages would it take in the spec to describe the protocol? Especially given their turgid technical-writer prose? Brands took a whole book to describe his credentials thoroughly. In any case, I agree that something like this would be an excellent enhancement to the technology. IMO it is very much in the spirit of TCPA. I suspect they would be very open to this suggestion. > Also I notice you imply patents are a problem. However, the TCPA > itself has patents and will of course charge for the hardware. > Patents it doesn't seem would present a problem for this application, > where there is non-zero reproduction cost hardware involved. They don't say much about patents or intellectual property licensing in the documents I have found on their site. It's not clear to me that the so-called Palladium patents actually cover TCPA. You'd have to look at them in detail. > Anonymous writes: > > And nobody's got the root key to my computer. You make this claim > > in many places in the document. What exactly is this "root key" in > > TCPA terms? The endorsement key? It's private part is generated > > on-chip and never leaves the chip! > > The "root key" to your computing environment is the private key of the > CA that signs the software updates. What software updates, exactly? Spec reference? > You'll recall that in the secure > boot-strapping process if you choose to boot in the TCPA mode, if > there are deviations or updates these are fetched and are only > accepted if certified by the layer owner. No, I don't recall seeing this in the spec. Hopefully as you have a chance to study it you can point out this part. I may well have missed a portion. If so then I agree that this is a potentially serious problem. > You said somewhere in this thread that the user must approve software > and firmware updates. However: > > - the user will not see the source code for the updates > > - the user is not in a position to evaluate the update > > - there will be lots of updates (daily, weekly -- look at microsofts > security bug fix rate), to the extent that the user will blindly click > ok. I was talking about the optional TPM_FieldUpgrade function described on page 251 of the spec. It is apparently intended for bug fixes and such. I doubt that there will be that many bug fixes, or that users will install them that often. And if an upgrade does obvious bad things like the various despotic features you fear, keeping you from booting Linux or whatever, people can avoid installing it. I don't see this as a mechanism for someone to take over the world. It's true what you say about the user having to trust the manufacturer about the upgrade - but he has to trust the manufacturer anyway that the chip works right. Whatever monitoring process may be in place to further that trust can also protect the upgrade as well. > - there is nothing the user can do to determine whether the update he > gets is also the same one other users of the OS get, vs a key board > sniffer the FBI or NSA request is inserted, or have copies of the > software update root keys to insert themselves. > > The problem is the centralised control. The user must at minimum be > able to choose his own software update certification agents. We need > transparency, distributed control, and openness to allow people to use > third party auditors they trust and have reason to trust to audit and > endorse updates. Well, he can choose who he buys the TPM chip from, I suppose. But upgrades are basically new firmware for the TPM chip, so they will probably always come from the manufacturer. Why exactly is this so much more of a threat than, say, flash BIOS upgrades? The BIOS has a lot more power over your machine than the TPM does. > > I don't agree with your characterization that TCPA enforces policies > > against the owner's interests. He has to voluntarily agree to everything, > > from turning on TCPA, to booting a TCPA compliant program, to running > > an application which some third party will trust, to accepting data from > > that third party under agreed-upon conditions. If at any step he didn't > > feel that what he was doing was in his interests, he can stop and do > > something else. > > He has no choice due to architectural design decisions, probably > motivated by economic profit motives in retaining monopoly control of > the TCPA consortium members. The control is ceded at the root of the > secure boot-strapping framework. Everything I have read indicates that he can boot other operating systems. And the spec seems to bear that out. I don't see anywhere in there that it would stop people from booting whatever software they want. > After that all user choice is gone, > all he can do is turn TCPA off. I'm assuming that over time > increasing amounts of the OS and applications will simply not function > without being in TCPA mode, so turning TCPA off will increasingly > become a non-choice. The only way that TCPA will become as popular as you fear is if it really solves problems for people. Otherwise nobody will pay the extra $25 to put it in their machine. > Specifically, you will be able to "choose" not to use the only tools > that will read formats used by 90+% of the world, and which are only > available for the Windows platform, and only when in TCPA mode, to > allow the platform to meet copyright tracking, IP ownership tracking > or other policy features implemented with the document format. That's largely the case already. That's why so many people choose Windows, to be compatible with what everyone else is doing. You seem to judge things by the outcome: Windows being more popular and powerful is bad. I judge by process: letting people make their own decisions is good, even if it leads to an outcome I personally don't like. > The danger once we get to this scenario is that as I described above > TCPA itself becomes "a generic extensible policy enforcement > architecture which can be configured to robustly enforce policies > against the interests of the machine owner." This could be used for > all kinds of malware policies which would run in the secure code > compartments, for example: > > - clipper / US key escrow implementation as a TCPA policy module Where would that fit in the spec? The spec is intentionally not about policy; there is no such thing as a "TCPA policy module". How would TCPA stop people from running their own strong cryptography? You are extrapolating way, way beyond anything that is in this spec. This is just imagination and paranoia. Be concrete. What changes would have to be made to TCPA to get the effects of a mandatory Clipper chip. Would they be made in secret or would some government have to pass a law before it happened? Would the changes happen in one country or all countries? Paint me a scenario that has some kind of connection to reality. Otherwise this sounds like South Park logic: 1. Get TCPA widely used 2. ... 3. Take over the world > - big brotherish policies for regimes interested in censoring and > imposing policies on users such as China, Iraq etc Again, what specific TCPA features will they exploit to accomplish this? > While it may be possible technically to boot in non TCPA mode, or to > boot an open source OS without the malware, most users will not have > the technical ability to know when they are at risk and when not and > what to do to avoid having the government policies enforced upon them. That's already the case. Face it: if government decided to enforce mandatory key escrow, most users would not object and would be unable to help themselves if they did, whether TCPA existed or not. > All kinds of dubious laws in western countries could start to see > stricter enforcement. Fair use rights erosion, data retention laws, > and on; I really think full enforcement of current and soon coming > laws will make things very unpleasant and greatly erode individual > rights. That's possible, and if we lived in a dictatorship I would be more concerned. But if new technologies make laws more enforceable, and people are uncomfortable with the loss of freedom, they will vote to relax restrictions. And as I have pointed out, it is possible that TCPA could allow for other applications that would actually magnify freedom. The thrust of the proposal is to improve the ability for applications to keep their secrets, both locally and on the net. > > As far as the concern about changes, I think the smart thing to do is > > to fight the bad and promote the good. Definitely we should oppose any > > proposal to make TCPA non-voluntary, to force people to boot a certain > > OS, to limit what they can do on their computers. But presently none > > of those features are in TCPA. Rather than saying TCPA is bad because > > someone could make all these hypothetical changes, it makes more sense > > to judge TCPA on its own, as a system that emphasizes user choice. > > A number of the features which are "not in TCPA" are obvious design > motivators. For example online content DRM. Others are obvious > things that Microsoft has been aggressively trying to do for years. > I'm not sure why you suppose they will stop persuing tricks such as > format compatibility lock-out, hidden changing APIs, using every trick > in the book. I'm just looking at the TCPA spec and trying to evaluate it. I don't see all the bad things that people have said are in there. Instead I see a lot of effort to provide security while still protecting user control and privacy. It's true that some developers may use the new power of TCPA for bad purposes, while other people will use it for good. I say, let us focus our criticism, don't waste time trashing a proposal because of things that are not in it. > Similarly I'm not sure why you presume governments will have no > interest in exerting control on the platform. Governments are > certainly not technology leaders, but they sure were persistent in > trying to persue the whole crypto-tech export legislation, > clipper/key-escrow and so on. Also this platform will be used world > wide. There are more repressive regimes with much more intrusive > plans. I just don't see that TCPA is of that much use to them, given that they already have essentially unlimited power. Ultimately, in the West, governments are the responsibility of the populace. If the Chinese government were to do a TCPA-like system, I doubt that it would look much like this one. > > Involuntary TCPA is bad, voluntary is good. So we should not fight TCPA, > > we should fight proposals to make it involuntary. > > Initial claims of "voluntary" is the standard trick for reducing > resistant to deployment. Look at history of various technologies > relating to privacy and security, or just politics in general. First > it's voluntary, then it becomes voluntary in name only (you can choose > not to, put the "choice" is marginalized to become almost > meaningless), and finally the last step is to not even pretend it's > voluntary. Even if so, that's no excuse for trying to stop people from making their own decisions about what to do with their resources. You shouldn't stop people from using a technology because you are afraid that someone else may come along and make it mandatory. > I think it's interesting to explore what can be fixed about TCPA. > It's putative voluntary / mandatory status is one aspect, true, but > more interesting ones are to ensure it is open, has distributed user > configurable control, open access to APIs and non-discriminatory > licensing with no policy strings attached. Absolutely! I fully agree with these sentiments. I think as you study the spec in detail you will see that it does a very good job by these standards. But ultimately you can't let users take control of their TPM chip and force it to lie to other people, without losing the whole point of the system. Doing that would be like insisting on a PKI where every user could make arbitrary modifications to certs issued by other people. Sure, in some sense it may increase freedom, but it's at the cost of making the whole infrastructure worthless. The thing that makes your certified key useful is the raw fact that you can't change it. By the same token, the thing that makes TCPA useful is the fact that you can't get at sealed data or get the system to lie. By voluntarily giving up this ability locally, you gain tremendous power in interacting with other people. From peternbiddle at hotmail.com Mon Aug 5 16:35:46 2002 From: peternbiddle at hotmail.com (Peter N. Biddle) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 16:35:46 -0700 Subject: No subject Message-ID: There are a lot of misconceptions about TCPA and Palladium. I am not going to address TCPA per se, but I do want to try to clear up differences and misconceptions around what Pd does. Comments are in-line: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adam Back" To: "Cypherpunks" Cc: "Cryptography" ; "Adam Back" Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 10:00 PM Subject: dangers of TCPA/palladium > Like anonymous, I've been reading some of the palladium and TCPA docs. Like anonymous and Adam, I have also been reading lots on Palladium lately. I have also been working on Pd since 1997. > I think some of the current disagreements and not very strongly > technology grounded responses to anonymous are due to the lack of any > concise and informative papers describing TCPA and palladium. I agree, and from my perspective this is a problem. We have a great deal of information we need to get out there. > Not everyone has the energy to reverse engineer a detailed 300-odd > pages of TCPA spec [1] back into high-level design considerations; the > more manageably short business level TCPA FAQs [2], [3] are too > heavily PR spun and biased to extract much useful information from. > > So so far I've read Ross Anderson's initial expose of the problem [4]; > plus Ross's FAQ [5]. (And more, reading list continues below...). We have done technical reviews of Palladium, as shown by Seth Schoen's notes (a), which I think talk directly about many of the things discussed in this thread. I suggest anyone who wants to start to understand Pd read these notes. You don't cite the MS whitepaper. This is not a technical paper but it does set precedent and declare intent. See (b). The suggestions for TCPA responses that William Arbaugh raises seem quite good (c). 1 and 2 are already true for Pd, I believe that 3 is true but I would need to talk with him about what he means here to confirm it, 4 is covered in Eric Norlin's blog (d), and 5 is something we should do. > The relationship between TCPA, and Palladium is: > > - TCPA is the hardware and firmware (Compaq, Intel, IBM, HP, and > Microsoft, plus 135+ other companies) The current TPM (version 1.1) doesn't have the primitives which we need to support Palladium, and the privacy model is different. We are working within TCPA to get the instruction set aligned so that Palladium and TCPA could use future silicon for attestation, sealing, and authentication, but as things stand today the approaches to the two of them are different enough so that TCPA 1.1 can't support Pd. > - Palladium is a proposed OS feature-set based on the TCPA hardware > (Microsoft) Pd is an OS feature set based on new hardware. Pd requires changes to the CPU, chipset and/or memory controller, graphics and USB, as well as new silicon (we call an SCP or SSP), . Microsoft currently has no announced plans to support TCPA directly, and as things stand today there is no SW or HW compatibility between the two. > The main 4 features proposed in the TCPA/palladium scheme are: > > 1. secure bootstrap -- checksums of BIOS, firmware, privileged OS code > are used to ensure the machine knows whether it is running certified > software or not. This is rooted in hardware, so you can't by pass it > by using virtualization, only by hardware hacking (*). This is not how Palladium works. Palladium loads a small piece of code called the TOR after the OS has booted and is running (this could be days later). Pd treats the BIOS, firmware, and privileged Windows OS code as untrusted. Pd doesn't care if the SW is certified or not - that is a question left to users. > 2. software attestation -- the hardware supports attesting to a third > party whether a call comes from a certified software component as > assured by the hardware described in feature 1. In Palladium, SW can actually know that it is running on a given platform and not being lied to by software. In 1, you say that SW virtualization doesn't work, and that is part of the design. (Pd can always be lied to by HW - we move the problem to HW, but we can't make it go away completely). As SW is capable of knowing its own state, it can attest this state to others - users, services, other apps, etc. It can't lie when it uses Pd to say what it is. It's up to third parties (again, the user of the machine, or an app, or service) to decide if it likes the answer and trusts the application. Disclosure of the apps identity is up to the user and no one else. Note that in Pd no one but the user can find out the totality of what SW is running except for the nub (aka TOR, or trusted operating root) and any required trusted services. So a service could say "I will only communicate with this app" and it will know that the app is what it says it is and hasn't been perverted. The service cannot say "I won't communicate with this app if this other app is running" because it has no way of knowing for sure if the other app isn't running. > 3. hardware assisted compartmentalization -- CPU can run privileged > software, and RAM can contain information that you can not examine, > and can not modify. (Optionally the software source can be published, > but that is not necessary, and if it's not you won't be able to > reverse-engineer it as it can be encrypted for the CPU). Confusion. The memory isn't encrypted, nor are the apps nor the TOR when they are on the hard drive. Encrypting the apps wouldn't make them more secure, so they aren't encrypted. The CPU uses HW protections to wall new running programs from the rest of the system and from each other. No one but the app itself, named third parties, and the TOR can see into this apps space. In fact, no one (should the app desire) can even know that the app is running at all except the TOR, and the TOR won't report this information to anyone without the apps permission. You can know this to be true because the TOR will be made available for review and thus you can read the source and decide for yourself if it behaves this way. > 4. sealing -- applications can store data that can only be read by > that application. This works based on more hardware -- the software > state checksums developed in feature 1 are used by hardware to > generate encryption keys. The hardware will refuse to generate the > key unless the same software state is running. Correct enough for this thread; it is actually the TOR that will manage the keys for the apps, as this makes the concept of migration and data roaming far more manageable. (Yes, we have thought about this.) > One good paper to understand the secure bootstrap is an academic paper > "A Secure and Reliable Bootstrap architecture" [6]. > > It's interesting to see that one of the author's of [6] has said that > TCPA as currently formed is a bad thing and is trying to influence TCPA > to make it more open, to exhibit stronger privacy properties read his > comments at [7]. > > There are a lot of potential negative implications of this technology, > it represents a major shift in the balance of power comparable in > magnitude to the clipper chip: > > 1. Potentially cedes control of the platform -- while the palladium > docs talk about being able to boot the hardware with TCPA turned off, > there exists possibility that with minor configuration change the > hardware / firmware ensemble that forms palladium/TCPA could be > configured to allow only certified OSes to boot, period. It's > interesting to note, if I read correctly, that the X-box (based on > Celeron processor and TCPA / TCPA-like features) does employ this > feature. See for example: [8]. Comparing xBox and Pd isn't particularly fruitful - they are different problems and thus very different solutions. (Also note that xBox doesn't use the PID or any other unique HW key.) Palladium mostly doesn't care about the BIOS and considers it to be an untrusted system component. In Pd the BIOS can load any OS it wants, just like today, and in Pd the OS can load any TOR specified by the user. The MS TOR will run any app, as specified by the user. The security model doesn't depend on some apps being prevented from running. I believe that there isn't a single thing you can do with your PC today which is prevented on a Palladium PC. I am open to being challenged on this, so please let me know what you think you won't be able to do on a Pd PC that you can do today. > The documents talk about there being no barrier to certifying TCPA > aware extensions to open-source OSes. However I'm having trouble > figuring out how this would work. Perhaps IBM with it's linux support > would build a TCPA extension for linux. Think about it -- the > extension runs in privileged mode, and presumably won't be certified > unless it passes some audit enforcing TCPA policies. (Such as keeping > the owner of the machine from reading sealed documents, or reading the > contents of DRM policy controlled documents without meeting the > requirements for the DRM policy.) > > 2. DSS over-again -- a big aspect of the DSS reverse-engineering was > to allow DVDs to be played in software on linux. The TCPA platform > seems to have the primary goal of making a framework within which it > is possible to build extensions to implement hardware tamper resistant > DRM. (The DRM implementation would run in a hardware assisted code > compartment as described in feature 3 above). So now where does that > put open source platforms? Will they be able to read such DRM > protected content? It seems likely that in the longer term the DRM > platform will include video cards without access to video memory, > perhaps encryption of the video signal out to the monitor, and of > audio out to the speakers. (There are other existing schemes to do > these things which dovetail into the likely TCPA DRM framework.) I think you mean CSS, not DSS. I don't want people snooping my passwords from the keyboard buffer, nor my account info from the frame buffer, and HW protections in those HW areas prevent that. > With the secure boot strap described in feature 1, the video card and > so on are also part of the boot strap process, so the DRM system would > have ready support from the platform for robustly refusing to play > except on certain types of hardware. Similarly the application > software which plays these DRM policy protected files and talks to the > DRM policy module in the hardware assisted code compartment will > itself be an application which uses the security boot-strapping > features. So it won't be possible to write an application on for > example linux to play these files without an audit and license etc > from various content, DRM and OS cartels. This will lead to exactly > the kind of thing Richard Stallman talked about in his prescient paper > on the coming platform and right to develop competing software control > wars [9]. Palladium doesn't boot strap the OS. Pd loads a secure piece of SW, called the TOR, which runs in a secure space and loads other apps that want security. Anyone can load an app into this environment and get the full protections Pd offers. MS doesn't require that you show them the SW first - you wanna run, you get to run - provided the user wants you to run. If a user doesn't like the looks of your app, then you (the developer) have a problem with that user. > 3. Privacy support is broken -- the "privacy" features while clearly > attempts to defuse a re-run at the pentium serial number debacle, have > not really fixed it's problems. You have to trust the "Trusted Third > Party" privacy CA not to track you and not to collude with other CAs > and software vendors. There are known solutions to this particular > sub-problem, for example Stefan Brands digital credentials [10], which > can be used to build a cryptographically assured privacy preserving > PKI avoiding the linking problems arising from identity based and > attribute certificates. The privacy model in Pd is different from TCPA. I could go on for a long time about it, but the key difference is that the public key is only revealed to named third parties which a user trusts. You are right in thinking that you need to trust them, but you don't have to show anyone your key if you don't trust them, so you (the user) are always in control of this. Pd is not about user authentication - it is about machine and SW authentication. User auth can be better solved on a Pd platform than on a PC today, but it isn't required. Pd doesn't need to know who you are to work. > 4. Strong enforcement for DMCA DRM excesses -- the types of DRM system > which the platform enables stand a fair chance of providing high > levels of enforcement for things which though strictly legally > mandated (copyright licensing restrictions, limited number of plays of > CDs / DVDs other disadvantageous schemes; inflexible and usurious > software licensing), if enforced strictly would have deleterious > effects on society and freedom. Copyright violation is widely > practiced to a greater or less extent by just about all individuals. > It is widely viewed as acceptable behavior. These social realities > and personal freedoms are not taken into account or represented in the > lobbying schemes which lead to the media cartels obtaining legal > support for the erosion of users rights and expansionist power grabs > in DMCA, WIPO etc. I don't know where to begin on this one. It deserves a long, well thought out response, and I don't have the time to do it at the moment. I will follow up on this. Let me state that I think that much of the energy around DRM and HW is misplaced, and that Pd is designed to enable seamless distribution of encrypted information, not to disable distribution of clear text information. > Some of these issues might be not so bad except for the track records, > and obvious monopolistic tendencies and economic pressures on the > entities who will have the root keys to the worlds computers. There > will be no effect choice or competition due to existing near > monopolies, or cartelisation in the hardware, operating system, and > content distribution conglomerates. MS will not have the root keys to the world's computers. The TOR won't have access to the private keys either. No one but the HW does. The TOR isn't "MS" per se - it is a piece of SW written by users but vetted and examined by hopefully thousands of parties and found to do nothing other than manage the local security model upon which Pd depends. You can read it and know it doesn't do anything but effectively manage keys and applications. And if you don't trust it, you won't run it. If you don't trust the TOR, you don't trust Palladium. Trust is the *only* feature we are attempting to achieve, so every decision we make will be made with trust and security in mind. > 5. Strong enforcement for the software renting model -- the types of > software licensing policy enforcement that can be built with the > platform will also start to strongly enable the software and object > rental ideas. Again potentially these models have some merit except > that they will be sabotaged by API lock out, where the root key owners > will be able to charge monopoly rents for access to APIs. I am confused as to how this would work in Pd. Anyone can write apps to the Pd API. Zero restrictions. (API's are full of restrictions - by their nature they limit things to a protocol, and potentially HW, both of which have understood limitations; I am dodging this concept in saying there are no restrictions). > 6. Audits and certification become vastly more prevalent. Having had > some involvement with software certification (FIPS 140-1 / CC) I can > attest that this can be expensive exercises. It is unlikely that the > open source community will be able to get software certified due to > cost (the software is free, there is no business entity to claim > ownership of the certification rights, and so no way to recuperate the > costs). While certification where competition is able to function is > a good thing, providing users with a transparency and needed > assurance, the danger with tying audits to TCPA is that it will be > another barrier to entry for small businesses, and for open source > particularly. This is a problem anyone who wants to compete in the security and trust space will need to overcome. I don't think that it is particularly new or different in a world with Pd. Writing a TOR is going to be really hard and will require processes and methods that are alien to many SW developers. One example (of many) is that we are generating our header files from specs. You don't change the header file, you change the spec and then gen the header. This process is required for the highest degrees of predictability, and those are cornerstones for the highest degree of trust. Unpredictable things are hard to trust. > 7. Untrusted, unauditable software will be able to run without > scrutiny inside the hardware assisted code compartments. Some of the > documentation talks about open sourcing some aspects. While this may > come to pass, but that sounded like the TOR (Trusted Operating Root); > other extension modules also running in unauditable compartments will > not be so published. Everything in the TCB (Trusted Computing Base) for Pd will be made available for review to anyone who wants to review it; this includes software which the MS TOR mandates must be loaded. > 8. Gives away root control of your machine -- providing potentially > universal remote control of users machines to any government agencies > with access to the TCPA certification master keys, or policies > allowing them to demand certifications on hostile code on demand. > Central authorities are likely to be the only, or the default > controllers of the firmware/software upgrade mechanism which comes as > part of the secure bootstrap feature. This doesn't happen in Pd. There is no secure boot strap feature in Pd. The BIOS boots up the PC the same way it does today. Root control is held by the owner of the machine. There is no certification master key in Pd. > 9. Provides a dangerously tempting target for government power-grabs > -- governments will be very interested to be able to abuse the power > provided by the platform, to gain access to its keys to be able to > insert remote backdoors, and/or to try to mandate government policy > enforcement modules once such a platform is built. Think this is > unrealistic? Recall clipper? The TCPA is a generic extensible policy > enforcement architecture which can be configured to robustly enforce > policies against the interests of the machine owner. Clipper, > key-escrow the whole multi-year fight, at some point in the near > future if some of the more egregious TCPA/Palladium framework features > and configuration possibilities becomes widely deployed could be > implemented after the fact, as a TCPA/Palladium policy extentsion > which runs in the hardware assisted code compartment and is > authenticated up to the hardware boot by the secure bootstrapping > process. One of the beauties of Pd is that if there is any SW backdoor, you will know about it. HW robustness will be something for manufacturers to work out. For most systems, I think that extensive HW tamper resistance will be a waste of time, but for some (e.g. highly secure govt systems) it will be a necessity and one that works well in Pd. > So what I've read so far, I think people's gut reactions are right -- > that it's an aggressive and abmitious power grab by the evil empire -- > the 3 cartels / monopolies surrounding PC hardware, Operating systems > and Content Distribution. The operating system near monoply will > doubtless find creative ways to use and expand the increased control > to control application interoperability (with the sealing function), > to control with hardware assistance the access to undocumented APIs > (no more reverse engineering, or using the APIs even if you do / could > reverse engineer). I know that we aren't using undocumented API's and that we will strive for the highest degree of interoperability and user control possible. Pd represents massive de-centralization of trust, not the centralization of it. I think that time is going to have to tell on this one. I know that this isn't true. You think that it is. I doubt that my saying it isn't true is going to change your mind; I know that the technology won't do much of what you are saying it does do, but I also know that some of these things boil down to suspicion around intent, and only time will show if my intent is aligned with my stated goals. > So some of the already applications are immediately objectionable. > The scope for them to become more so with limited recourse or > technical counter-measures possible on the part of the user community > is huge. Probably the worst aspect is the central control -- it > really effectively does give remote root control to your machine to > people you don't want to trust. Also the control _will_ be abused for > monopolistic rent seeking and exclusionary policies to lock-out > competition. Don't forget the fact that microsoft views linux as a > major enemy as revealed by documents uncovered some the anti-trust > discovery process. Pd does not give root control of your machine to someone else. It puts it into your hands, to do with as you so desire, including hacking away at it to your hearts content. > In fact I'd say this is the biggest coming risk to personal freedom > since the days during the onset of the clipper chip / key escrow > looked like they stood some chance of becoming reality. I think that Pd represents an enhancement to personal freedoms and user control over their machines. I hope that over time I will be able to explain Pd sufficiently well so that you have all the facts you need to understand how and why I say this. Peter ++++ (a) Seth Schoens Blog http://vitanuova.loyalty.org/2002-07-05.html (b) MS Paper http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2002/jul02/0724palladiumwp.asp (c) William Arbaugh on TCPA http://www.cs.umd.edu/~waa/TCPA/TCPA-goodnbad.html (d) Eric Norlin's blog http://www.unchartedshores.com/blogger/archive/2002_07_28_archive3.html#8530 0559 > > Adam > -- > http://www.cypherspace.org/adam/ > > (*) It may be possible to hack the firmware, given access to source > temporarily. > > [1] "Trusted Computing Platform Alliance (TCPA) Main Specification > Version 1.1b", TCPA > > http://www.trustedcomputing.org/docs/main%20v1_1b.pdf > > [2] "TCPA Specification/TPM Q&A", TCPA > > http://www.trustedcomputing.org/docs/TPM_QA_071802.pdf > > [3] "TCPA Frequently Asked Questions Rev 5.0", TCPA > > http://www.trustedcomputing.org/docs/Website_TCPA%20FAQ_0703021.pdf > > [4] "Security in Open versus Closed Systems (The Dance of Boltzmann, > Coase and Moore)", Ross Anderson, > > (Sections 4 and 5 only, rest is unrelated) > > ftp://ftp.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/rja14/toulouse.pdf > > [5] "TCPA / Palladium Frequently Asked Questions Version 1.0" > > http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/tcpa-faq.html > > [6] "A Secure and Reliable Bootstrap Architecture" > > @inproceedings{Arbaugh:97:secure-bootstrap, > author = "Bill Arbaugh and Dave Farber and Jonathan Smith", > title = "A Secure and Reliable Bootstrap Architecture", > booktitle = "Proceedings of the IEEE Symposium on Security and Privacy", > pages = 65-71, > note = "Also available as \url{http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~waa/aegis.ps}" > } > > [7] "The TCPA; What's wrong; What's right and what to do about", > William Arbaugh, 20 Jul 2002 > > http://www.cs.umd.edu/~waa/TCPA/TCPA-goodnbad.html > > [8] "Keeping Secrets in Hardware: the Micrsoft Xbox Case Study", > Andre "bunnie" Huang, 26 May 2002 > > http://web.mit.edu/bunnie/www/proj/anatak/AIM-2002-008.pdf > > [9] "The Right to Read", Richard Stallman, Feb 1997, Communications of > the ACM (Volume 40, Number 2). > > http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html > > [10] Stefan Brands > > Book "Rethinking Public Key Infrastructures and Digital Certificates - > Building in Privacy", MIT Press, Aug 2000. > > http://www.xs4all.nl/~brands/ > > Number of other technical and semi-technical papers on that page. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > The Cryptography Mailing List > Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com > --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com ----- End forwarded message ----- From jamesd at echeque.com Mon Aug 5 16:37:16 2002 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 16:37:16 -0700 Subject: Other uses of TCPA In-Reply-To: <97ae2010fd503056b22ed1e86cdc0853@aarg.net> Message-ID: <3D4EA9BC.10160.20A4A5C@localhost> -- On 4 Aug 2002 at 22:30, AARG! Anonymous wrote: > I've been thinking about writing a few pages summarizing TCPA > and how the crypto works, but then I think, why bother? > Everyone is already convinced that the system is the spawn of > Satan. Nobody cares about the facts. This prejudice is caused by: 1. IP is already overprotected by the state, so any additional protection will meet with hostility. 2. Trusted computing is being brought to us by people we do not trust, accompanied by documents that fail to inspire trust. 3. Trusted computing is an idea that popped up at the same time as a variety of proposals to force the world back to the TV paradigm, a few big companies producing information, and everyone else passively absorbing it. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG bZX0QD4FFlxWxDNGkEsk8orCkxCQCJl4bNYQwpJ4 2MZwjrZWm+U4NSaitrbjL/VtmAn95YEf4aYO7O8C+ From remailer at aarg.net Mon Aug 5 17:00:25 2002 From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 17:00:25 -0700 Subject: Magic Money Message-ID: <9bf8d050687c783f88ae0bb8dde5fe9c@aarg.net> Here is a link for Magic Money: http://ftp.vit.edu.tw/pc/programming/hacktic/ecash/magicmoney/MagicMoney.tar.gz http://www.spinnaker.com/crypt/pgp_tools/ also has a few different versions. I think you need the latest mgmnyxx.zip and the latest pgptlxx.zip. From Kevin.Wall at qwest.com Mon Aug 5 14:27:17 2002 From: Kevin.Wall at qwest.com (Wall, Kevin) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 17:27:17 -0400 Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA Message-ID: <9956F8424795D411B03B0008C786E60D09EA430F@dubntex005.qwest.net> I'm resending this because I never saw it appear on the cypherpunks at lne.com mailing list. Appologies if it has already been through and I just missed it. -kevin wall -----Original Message----- >From: Wall, Kevin Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 1:27 AM To: 'ericm at lne.com '; 'cypherpunks at lne.com '; 'cryptography at wasabisystems.com '; 'ptrei at rsasecurity.com' Subject: RE: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA Mr AARG! writes... > Eric Murray writes: > > Yes, the spec says that it can be turned off. At that point you > > can run anything that doesn't need any of the protected data or > > other TCPA services. But, why would a software vendor that wants > > the protection that TCPA provides allow his software to run > > without TCPA as well, abandoning those protections? > > That's true; in fact if you ran it earlier under TCPA and sealed some > data, you will have to run under TCPA to unseal it later. The question > is whether the advantages of running under TCPA (potentially greater > security) outweigh the disadvantages (greater potential for loss of > data, less flexibility, etc.). and in another reply to Peter Trei, Mr. AARG! also writes... > Now, there is an optional function which does use the manufacturer's key, > but it is intended only to be used rarely. That is for when you need to > transfer your sealed data from one machine to another (either because you > have bought a new machine, or because your old one crashed). In this > case you go through a complicated procedure that includes encrypting > some data to the TPME key (the TPM manufacturer's key) and sending it > to the manufacturer, who massages the data such that it can be loaded > into the new machine's TPM chip. > > So this function does require pre-loading a manufacturer key into the > TPM, but first, it is optional, and second, it frankly appears to be so > cumbersome that it is questionable whether manufacturers will want to > get involved with it. OTOH it is apparently the only way to recover > if your system crashes. This may indicate that TCPA is not feasible, > because there is too much risk of losing locked data on a machine crash, > and the recovery procedure is too cumbersome. That would be a valid > basis on which to criticize TCPA, but it doesn't change the fact that > many of the other claims which have been made about it are not correct. Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm sure you all will :), but wouldn't you also have to possibly go through this exercise with the TPME key and sending your system to the manufacturer when you wanted to, say, upgrade your operating system or switch to a completely different OS? That will go over like a lead balloon. (Gee... must be getting late. I almost wrote "like a bag of dirt". Duh! Can't even remember cliches at my age.) -kevin wall P.S.- Please excuse the sh*t formating. We use Lookout! and MS Exstrange where I work. --- Kevin W. Wall Qwest Information Technology, Inc. Kevin.Wall at qwest.com Phone: 614.932.5542 "Wipe Info uses hexadecimal values to wipe files. 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Message-ID: <200208051014.g75AEkR01369@waste.minder.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 11709 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jamesd at echeque.com Mon Aug 5 19:33:25 2002 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 19:33:25 -0700 Subject: dangers of TCPA/palladium In-Reply-To: <09fdc16bc6a040e13686c9150aca01d9@aarg.net> Message-ID: <3D4ED305.14245.39124E@localhost> -- On 5 Aug 2002 at 16:25, AARG! Anonymous wrote: > Well, he can choose who he buys the TPM chip from, I suppose. > But upgrades are basically new firmware for the TPM chip, so > they will probably always come from the manufacturer. Sure, no problem, if the manufacturer is not acting under state direction. Let us instead suppose, as seems likely, all manufacturers are directed to upgrade TPM with clipper chip technology. Obviously as long as TPM is not backed by legal force, it cannot do anything very bad. But the TPM technology puts my throat where the legislators can cut it. > > The danger once we get to this scenario is that as I described > > above TCPA itself becomes "a generic extensible policy > > enforcement architecture which can be configured to robustly > > enforce policies against the interests of the machine owner." > > This could be used for all kinds of malware policies which > > would run in the secure code compartments, for example: > > > > - clipper / US key escrow implementation as a TCPA policy > > module On 5 Aug 2002 at 16:25, AARG! Anonymous wrote: > Where would that fit in the spec? The hardware supports it. The spec says the software and CA policies will not. The spec also says that both software and policies can and will be frequently revised. There is obvious potential there to back TCPM with anti circumvention laws, and all sorts of unpleasantness. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG 7psEoY7rJFk92hlIOz7Ez88G08qsf7BTR4MvGmI4 2Ue/dlRhUUlakQqaTi3EO1g5Gi1JzpgJD1lLYYgGF From eresrch at eskimo.com Mon Aug 5 20:34:22 2002 From: eresrch at eskimo.com (Mike Rosing) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 20:34:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: dangers of TCPA/palladium In-Reply-To: <09fdc16bc6a040e13686c9150aca01d9@aarg.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Aug 2002, AARG! Anonymous wrote: > Well, he can choose who he buys the TPM chip from, I suppose. > But upgrades are basically new firmware for the TPM chip, so they will > probably always come from the manufacturer. Or who ever steals the master key. > Why exactly is this so much more of a threat than, say, flash BIOS > upgrades? The BIOS has a lot more power over your machine than the > TPM does. The difference is fundamental: I can change every bit of flash in my BIOS. I can not change *anything* in the TPM. *I* control my BIOS. IF, and only IF, I can control the TPM will I trust it to extend my trust to others. The purpose of TCPA as spec'ed is to remove my control and make the platform "trusted" to one entity. That entity has the master key to the TPM. Now, if the spec says I can install my own key into the TPM, then yes, it is a very useful tool. It would be fantastic in all the portables that have been stolen from the FBI for example. Assuming they use a password at turn on, and the TPM is used to send data over the net, then they'd know where all their units are and know they weren't compromised (or how badly compromised anyway). But as spec'ed, it is very seriously flawed. > > > - big brotherish policies for regimes interested in censoring and > > imposing policies on users such as China, Iraq etc > > Again, what specific TCPA features will they exploit to accomplish this? The untouchable code zone. That's fine for an embedded application, but for a general purpose computing platform it's great for dictators. > That's already the case. Face it: if government decided to enforce > mandatory key escrow, most users would not object and would be unable > to help themselves if they did, whether TCPA existed or not. Yes, dictatorships are stable governments for the short run. Most people are willing to put up with slavery as long as they get food and sleep. But there are enough people who read history (and who have escaped dictatorships) to prevent really bad things from being forced down everyone's throats. TCPM seems like clipper and it also seems like it'd be pretty easy to sell as evil (whether it is or not). I don't think it's going to be an easy fight for the RIAA folks. > I just don't see that TCPA is of that much use to them, given that they > already have essentially unlimited power. Ultimately, in the West, > governments are the responsibility of the populace. > > If the Chinese government were to do a TCPA-like system, I doubt that > it would look much like this one. What makes you think TCPA isn't being designed with the Chinese in mind? They don't believe in copyright to begin with, and they are a huge market. As it's been described so far, it sure seems useful to the master key holder. Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike From adam at cypherspace.org Mon Aug 5 13:46:43 2002 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 21:46:43 +0100 Subject: dangers of TCPA/palladium In-Reply-To: ; from remailer@aarg.net on Mon, Aug 05, 2002 at 12:10:12AM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20020805214643.A544415@exeter.ac.uk> Some comments on selected parts of anonymous post: 1) about claimed "complexity" of cryptographically assured privacy, rather than the current "trust me" privacy via the privacy CA "TTP": Anonymous writes: > Adam Back wrote: > > 3. Privacy support is broken -- the "privacy" features while clearly > > attempts to defuse a re-run at the pentium serial number debacle, have > > not really fixed it's problems. You have to trust the "Trusted Third > > Party" privacy CA not to track you and not to collude with other CAs > > and software vendors. There are known solutions to this particular > > sub-problem, for example Stefan Brands digital credentials [10], which > > can be used to build a cryptographically assured privacy preserving > > PKI avoiding the linking problems arising from identity based and > > attribute certificates. > > I agree that it would be nice to see more flexibility there. The Chaum > blinding patent expires in 2005, so maybe around then we can start seeing > privacy CA's that use blind signatures, which solves that problem. > The spec is obviously trying hard to protect privacy, it's just that > the mechanisms to do it right are extremely complex compared to the > straightforward way. To address privacy with for example Brands digital credentials, the underlying cryptography may be harder to understand, or at least less familiar, but I don't think using a toolkit based on Brands digital credentials would be significantly harder than using an identity or attribute based PKI toolkit. Similar for Chaum's credentials or other approach. Also I notice you imply patents are a problem. However, the TCPA itself has patents and will of course charge for the hardware. Patents it doesn't seem would present a problem for this application, where there is non-zero reproduction cost hardware involved. 2) about the "root key" / potential for malicious remote control claim that I make (and Ross Anderson I think also makes): > And nobody's got the root key to my computer. You make this claim > in many places in the document. What exactly is this "root key" in > TCPA terms? The endorsement key? It's private part is generated > on-chip and never leaves the chip! The "root key" to your computing environment is the private key of the CA that signs the software updates. You'll recall that in the secure boot-strapping process if you choose to boot in the TCPA mode, if there are deviations or updates these are fetched and are only accepted if certified by the layer owner. (I presume different layers would have updates and certification managed by different vendors Eg. hardware vendor / TPM vendor for firmware, OS manufactturer for OS, application manufacturer for application software etc, and that the secure bootstrap process would accordingly transfer control to the respective next layers certification keys in case of need for software update.) The closer to the hardware a software update is the more pervasive the control a malicious update could exert. For example there are apparently plans for TPM mediated direct path to input devices (esp. keyboard), a malicious update close enough to the hardware could subvert this protection. and more on the "root key" problem: > > 8. Gives away root control of your machine -- providing potentially > > universal remote control of users machines to any government agencies > > with access to the TCPA certification master keys > > [...] All the TCPA certification master keys do is to certify that a > system is TCPA compliant. They don't have a remote control over > your machine! They are more analogous to Verisign in the X.509 > world. Last I checked they hadn't taken over my box. As far as the > field upgrade, it has to be authorized by the owner. The root key is not the endorsement master keys -- that one just allows the TPM vendor to extract rent from the hardware manufacturers -- I mean the update certification keys which will I presume be part of the software update features described in the secure boot-strapping. You said somewhere in this thread that the user must approve software and firmware updates. However: - the user will not see the source code for the updates - the user is not in a position to evaluate the update - there will be lots of updates (daily, weekly -- look at microsofts security bug fix rate), to the extent that the user will blindly click ok. - there is nothing the user can do to determine whether the update he gets is also the same one other users of the OS get, vs a key board sniffer the FBI or NSA request is inserted, or have copies of the software update root keys to insert themselves. The problem is the centralised control. The user must at minimum be able to choose his own software update certification agents. We need transparency, distributed control, and openness to allow people to use third party auditors they trust and have reason to trust to audit and endorse updates. 3) about my claim that TCPA is a platform for enforcing policies against the users interests: > > 9. Provides a dangerously tempting target for government power-grabs > > -- governments will be very interested to be able to abuse the power > > provided by the platform, to gain access to it's keys to be able to > > insert remote backdoors, and/or to try to mandate government policy > > enforcement modules once such a platform is built. Think this is > > unrealistic? Recall clipper? The TCPA is a generic extensible policy > > enforcement architecture which can be configured to robustly enforce > > policies against the interests of the machine owner. Clipper, > > key-escrow the whole multi-year fight, at some point in the near > > future if some of the more egregious TCPA/Palladium framework features > > and configuration possibilities becomes widely deployed could be > > implemented after the fact, as a TCPA/Palladium policy extentsion > > which runs in the hardware assisted code compartment and is > > authenticated up to the hardware boot by the secure bootstrapping > > process. > > I don't agree with your characterization that TCPA enforces policies > against the owner's interests. He has to voluntarily agree to everything, > from turning on TCPA, to booting a TCPA compliant program, to running > an application which some third party will trust, to accepting data from > that third party under agreed-upon conditions. If at any step he didn't > feel that what he was doing was in his interests, he can stop and do > something else. He has no choice due to architectural design decisions, probably motivated by economic profit motives in retaining monopoly control of the TCPA consortium members. The control is ceded at the root of the secure boot-strapping framework. After that all user choice is gone, all he can do is turn TCPA off. I'm assuming that over time increasing amounts of the OS and applications will simply not function without being in TCPA mode, so turning TCPA off will increasingly become a non-choice. Specifically, you will be able to "choose" not to use the only tools that will read formats used by 90+% of the world, and which are only available for the Windows platform, and only when in TCPA mode, to allow the platform to meet copyright tracking, IP ownership tracking or other policy features implemented with the document format. The danger once we get to this scenario is that as I described above TCPA itself becomes "a generic extensible policy enforcement architecture which can be configured to robustly enforce policies against the interests of the machine owner." This could be used for all kinds of malware policies which would run in the secure code compartments, for example: - clipper / US key escrow implementation as a TCPA policy module - big brotherish policies for regimes interested in censoring and imposing policies on users such as China, Iraq etc While it may be possible technically to boot in non TCPA mode, or to boot an open source OS without the malware, most users will not have the technical ability to know when they are at risk and when not and what to do to avoid having the government policies enforced upon them. All kinds of dubious laws in western countries could start to see stricter enforcement. Fair use rights erosion, data retention laws, and on; I really think full enforcement of current and soon coming laws will make things very unpleasant and greatly erode individual rights. 4) about likely future directions for TCPA / Palladium upon which some of the complaints are based: > As far as the concern about changes, I think the smart thing to do is > to fight the bad and promote the good. Definitely we should oppose any > proposal to make TCPA non-voluntary, to force people to boot a certain > OS, to limit what they can do on their computers. But presently none > of those features are in TCPA. Rather than saying TCPA is bad because > someone could make all these hypothetical changes, it makes more sense > to judge TCPA on its own, as a system that emphasizes user choice. A number of the features which are "not in TCPA" are obvious design motivators. For example online content DRM. Others are obvious things that Microsoft has been aggressively trying to do for years. I'm not sure why you suppose they will stop persuing tricks such as format compatibility lock-out, hidden changing APIs, using every trick in the book. Similarly I'm not sure why you presume governments will have no interest in exerting control on the platform. Governments are certainly not technology leaders, but they sure were persistent in trying to persue the whole crypto-tech export legislation, clipper/key-escrow and so on. Also this platform will be used world wide. There are more repressive regimes with much more intrusive plans. 5) about voluntary vs involuntary TCPA > Involuntary TCPA is bad, voluntary is good. So we should not fight TCPA, > we should fight proposals to make it involuntary. Initial claims of "voluntary" is the standard trick for reducing resistant to deployment. Look at history of various technologies relating to privacy and security, or just politics in general. First it's voluntary, then it becomes voluntary in name only (you can choose not to, put the "choice" is marginalized to become almost meaningless), and finally the last step is to not even pretend it's voluntary. I think it's interesting to explore what can be fixed about TCPA. It's putative voluntary / mandatory status is one aspect, true, but more interesting ones are to ensure it is open, has distributed user configurable control, open access to APIs and non-discriminatory licensing with no policy strings attached. Adam --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From adam at cypherspace.org Mon Aug 5 14:26:28 2002 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 22:26:28 +0100 Subject: more TCPA stuff (Re: "trust me" pseudonyms in TCPA) In-Reply-To: ; from eresrch@eskimo.com on Mon, Aug 05, 2002 at 07:42:45AM -0700 References: <20020805064801.A532566@exeter.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20020805222628.A512885@exeter.ac.uk> On Mon, Aug 05, 2002 at 07:42:45AM -0700, Mike Rosing wrote: > On Mon, 5 Aug 2002, Adam Back wrote: > > The corresponding public key is certified by the secure hardware > > manufacturer, I think. > > Are all the keys certified? Are any copied outright? Note there is one key that is endorsed, so per machine there is one key, singular. On the other interpretation of your question: do we trust that the manufacturer didn't take a copy of the key while certifying it? Good quesion. The scenario is analogous to the pre-generated private key on a smart card. Do you trust what the hardware vendor did with it? Did they generate the private key it off chip and keep a copy? Did they generate the private key on chip but export it at the time of certifying the public key? Except in this case the smart card is attached to your motherboard, mediates control of the platform and is called the "TPM" Trusted Platform Module. While there are approaches to having third party audits of the process, publishing the source code, etc; it's still typically not a very transparent affair as it's in tamper resistant hardware, plus vulnerable to plausibly deniable snafus, and undetectable backdooring even if it is generated on TPM. > But I'm confused, so keep at it and maybe I'll figure something out! Effectively I think the best succinct description of the platforms motivation and function is that: "TCPA/Palladium is an extensible, general purpose programmable dongle soldered to your mother board with centralised points belonging to Microsoft/IBM/Intel/". It seems to me there is both strong possibility for it becoming a focus for future government attempts at policy malware and legislated technology implementation, and a focus RIAA/MPAA/WIPO polices imposing futher expansionist and monopoly propping legislation and legislated technology implementation to enforce the worst excesses of DMCA. The technology components are very interesting. The implications of what can be done with sealing, secure boot-strapping and remote attestation are a departure from what people were thinking was possible with general purpose computing. As anonymous points out it makes possible all kinds of applications and changes the nature of what can be cryptographically assured. With current non-TCPA platforms the limit of what can be cryptographically assured is for example what can be encrypted with password, or other cryptographic mechanism. Cryptographic assurance is also known as "data separation" -- the concept that the crytography is able to completely cover the applications policy restrictions without leaving "trusted" software components necessary to enforce policies too complex to implement with encryption / data separation. With TCPA you can build general purpose policy code which does not exhibit cryptographic assurance, and yet due to the TCPA platform assures similar levels of security assurance. That's a huge change in world view in the domain of security applications. In slightly more detail, you can either build applications rooted in the remote attestation, sealing and secure boot-strapping functions I described in an earlier post. Or you can add your own custom policy and even applications inside a hardware assured code compartment which the user can not access or tamper with. One aspect of the implications is the implementation and security possibilities it lends to DRM applications. Personally I don't find this aspect a good thing because I think current copyright law has reached a state of being a net negative for society and freedom, and that it's time to rescind them and start-over. I think we should try analyse as William Arbaugh suggested in [7] what is desirable, what is safe to implement, and ways to change the platform to remove the negative aspects. >From my current understanding, the worst problem is the centralised control of this platform. If it were completely open, and possible to fix it's potential dangers, it would bring about a new framework of secured computing and could be a net positive. In it's current form with centralised control and other problems it could be a big net negative. Adam [7] "The TCPA; What's wrong; What's right and what to do about", William Arbaugh, 20 Jul 2002 http://www.cs.umd.edu/~waa/TCPA/TCPA-goodnbad.html From DaveHowe at gmx.co.uk Mon Aug 5 14:48:59 2002 From: DaveHowe at gmx.co.uk (Dave Howe) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 22:48:59 +0100 Subject: dangers of TCPA/palladium References: Message-ID: <007201c23cc9$e9129f40$01c8a8c0@p800> On Mon, 5 Aug 2002, AARG!Anonymous wrote: > Why not give the market a chance? Company A provides the data with > Draconian DRM restrictions; company B gives you more flexibility in what > you do. All else being equal, people will prefer company B. So they > can charge more. In this way a balance will be reached depending on how > much people really value this kind of flexibility and how much they are > willing to pay for it. You and I don't get to decide, the people who > are making the decisions about what content to buy will decide. That assumes there is a competitive market. Supposing you need Microsoft Office. you probably don't actually care that much if you use MS Office, Sun Staroffice, Ability write or whatever - but you need to interoperate with companies that *do* use Microsoft Office. If you don't like the Microsoft version of Microsoft Office because of its draconian insistance on running *only* on a Trusted machine with a Trusted Operating System, how do you proceed? particularly as it would be trivial to make reverse-engineered interoperable office suites illegal under the DMCA? Music, video, text, computer programs - all are governed by legally-enforced monopoly rights of patent and/or copyright, the latter continually extended to prevent micky mouse ever becoming public domain - and all meaning there is but a single source you can obtain whatever it is you need or want from, so you either have to take whatever restrictions are imposed (fair use being invalid in a DMCA world) or do without. From security at suse.de Mon Aug 5 14:28:20 2002 From: security at suse.de (security) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 23:28:20 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Fw:questionnaire Message-ID: <20020805212820.179702691@digi.army.sk> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: unnamed.html Type: text/html Size: 112 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- ****************************************************** POZNAMKA: priloha s menom 65535).bat bola odstranena, nakolko sa jedna o potencionalne nebezpecny subor, ktory umoznuje sirenie virusov. ******************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: nmap.stealth.wrapper.htm Type: application/octet-stream Size: 5068 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lynn.wheeler at firstdata.com Mon Aug 5 21:47:33 2002 From: lynn.wheeler at firstdata.com (lynn.wheeler at firstdata.com) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 23:47:33 -0500 Subject: dangers of TCPA/palladium Message-ID: a lot financial institutions went to certificates/credentials that only contained an account number .... nothing else ... largely because of the huge privacy exposure of any kind of identify certificate (everything about you embedded in a certificate that is attached ... frequently totally in the clear ... or at least at the end-points on every transaction .... including intermediary points like merchants). It was then possible to show (at least in the financial transaction & relying-party-only certificates) that such certificates could easily be compressed to zero bytes. http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/index.html#aads in the online financial transaction case, the merchant is interested in the bank saying that the merchant gets the money ..... your identity isn't necessary for that ... and in fact, the EU directive of making point-of-sale transactions as anonymous as cash would also lead in that direction. First step is removing you name from the piece of plastic, then if the "plastic" credential doesn't have any identity .... why should there be a certificate at all. remail at aarg.net on 8/5/2002 6:25 pm wrote Adam Back writes: > To address privacy with for example Brands digital credentials, the > underlying cryptography may be harder to understand, or at least less > familiar, but I don't think using a toolkit based on Brands digital > credentials would be significantly harder than using an identity or > attribute based PKI toolkit. Similar for Chaum's credentials or other > approach. Sure, but how many pages would it take in the spec to describe the protocol? Especially given their turgid technical-writer prose? Brands took a whole book to describe his credentials thoroughly. In any case, I agree that something like this would be an excellent enhancement to the technology. IMO it is very much in the spirit of TCPA. I suspect they would be very open to this suggestion. --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From shamrock at cypherpunks.to Tue Aug 6 01:05:44 2002 From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 01:05:44 -0700 Subject: USENIX Security TCPA/Palladium Panel Wednesday Message-ID: <002c01c23d20$110df390$6801a8c0@xpserver> I am scheduled to moderate a panel on TCPA and Palladium at the upcoming USENIX Security Conference this Wednesday in San Francisco. Representatives of Microsoft's Palladium project and the EFF have confirmed their participation. See http://www.usenix.org/events/sec02/ for details. The slides of the talk on TCPA that I gave over the weekend at DEFCON are now available at http://www.cypherpunks.to Hope to see you all at USENIX, --Lucky --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From jules at killall5.de Mon Aug 5 16:19:51 2002 From: jules at killall5.de (Sebastian Horzela) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 01:19:51 +0200 Subject: Magic Money Message-ID: <20020805231951.GA2859@killall5.de> Hi all, just a question: where can I get a copy of Magic Money? Have tried a while googling around and never found something that points me to a file and it doens't appear anymore on csn.org. Okay, thanks ;) Bye, jules From eroka at erecdtions.net Mon Aug 5 18:23:36 2002 From: eroka at erecdtions.net (eroka at erecdtions.net) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 01:23:36 GMT Subject: Check it out! Message-ID: <200208060123.BAA24389@naiad.ip.pt> Below is the result of your feedback form. It was submitted by (eroka at erecdtions.net) on Tuesday, August 6, 2002 at 01:23:36 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- : Hi I'm Ember!
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http://www.amesrock.us.tt/ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From shamrock at cypherpunks.to Tue Aug 6 02:05:55 2002 From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 02:05:55 -0700 Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA In-Reply-To: <200208012308.BAA00912@home.unipay.nl> Message-ID: <004601c23d28$791bb3c0$6801a8c0@xpserver> Ray wrote: > > > From: "James A. Donald" > > Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 20:51:24 -0700 > > > On 29 Jul 2002 at 15:35, AARG! Anonymous wrote: > > > both Palladium and TCPA deny that they are designed to restrict > > > what applications you run. The TPM FAQ at > > > http://www.trustedcomputing.org/docs/TPM_QA_071802.pdf reads > > > .... > > > > They deny that intent, but physically they have that capability. > > To make their denial credible, they could give the owner > access to the private key of the TPM/SCP. But somehow I > don't think that jibes with their agenda. Probably not surprisingly to anybody on this list, with the exception of potentially Anonymous, according to the TCPA's own TPM Common Criteria Protection Profile, the TPM prevents the owner of a TPM from exporting the TPM's internal key. The ability of the TPM to keep the owner of a PC from reading the private key stored in the TPM has been evaluated to E3 (augmented). For the evaluation certificate issued by NIST, see: http://niap.nist.gov/cc-scheme/PPentries/CCEVS-020016-VR-TPM.pdf > If I buy a lock I expect that by demonstrating ownership I > can get a replacement key or have a locksmith legally open it. It appears the days when this was true are waning. At least in the PC platform domain. --Lucky --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From eugen at leitl.org Mon Aug 5 17:07:52 2002 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 02:07:52 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Suggested entry into the TCPA spec In-Reply-To: <0e7a92034f27922f4e9ef6fc2d085eef@aarg.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Aug 2002, AARG! Anonymous wrote: > Here is a suggestion for how to appraoch the TCPA spec based on the parts > I have found to be relatively good explanations. The spec is available I'd wish you wouldn't lay on the exegesis of the Sacred Document quite so heavily. Reason: your prophet stinks. Please spare your's and our neurons for more worthwhile endeavours. If the stinking thing ever comes through you can always burn midnight oil in efforts on how to misuse is in the best possible way. Meanwhile, the amount of floorspace so far allotted is way overblown. From shamrock at cypherpunks.to Tue Aug 6 02:24:55 2002 From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 02:24:55 -0700 Subject: dangers of TCPA/palladium In-Reply-To: <09fdc16bc6a040e13686c9150aca01d9@aarg.net> Message-ID: <005601c23d2b$204b2980$6801a8c0@xpserver> Anonymous writes: > > Adam Back writes: > > To address privacy with for example Brands digital credentials, the > > underlying cryptography may be harder to understand, or at > least less > > familiar, but I don't think using a toolkit based on Brands digital > > credentials would be significantly harder than using an identity or > > attribute based PKI toolkit. Similar for Chaum's > credentials or other > > approach. > > Sure, but how many pages would it take in the spec to > describe the protocol? Especially given their turgid > technical-writer prose? Brands took a whole book to describe > his credentials thoroughly. > > In any case, I agree that something like this would be an > excellent enhancement to the technology. IMO it is very much > in the spirit of TCPA. I suspect they would be very open to > this suggestion. Though routinely professing otherwise, evidently Anonymous knows nothing of the spirit of the TCPA: I proposed the use of blinding schemes to the TCPA as far back as 2 years ago as a substitute to the Privacy CAs schemes which are subject to potential collusion. I believe "unreceptive", rather than "very much open to this suggestion" would more accurately describe the TCPA's spirit Anonymous holds so high. --Lucky Green --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From adam at cypherspace.org Mon Aug 5 20:46:37 2002 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 04:46:37 +0100 Subject: (fwd) Re: dangers of TCPA/palladium Message-ID: <20020806044637.A552100@exeter.ac.uk> Response from Peter Biddle on cryptography list. (I think he is a microsoft tech manager involved with palladium from a quick google). Adam ----- Forwarded message from "Peter N. Biddle" ----- From eresrch at eskimo.com Tue Aug 6 06:52:30 2002 From: eresrch at eskimo.com (Mike Rosing) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 06:52:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: USENIX Security TCPA/Palladium Panel Wednesday In-Reply-To: <002c01c23d20$110df390$6801a8c0@xpserver> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Aug 2002, Lucky Green wrote: > I am scheduled to moderate a panel on TCPA and Palladium at the upcoming > USENIX Security Conference this Wednesday in San Francisco. > Representatives of Microsoft's Palladium project and the EFF have > confirmed their participation. > Wish I could be there. Anybody on the panel from the TCPA side? >From Adam's forward msg it seems that TCPA and MS's Palladium are not (yet) compatible. The exchange between Palladium and TCPA would be interesting. Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike From eresrch at eskimo.com Tue Aug 6 07:19:48 2002 From: eresrch at eskimo.com (Mike Rosing) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 07:19:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: (fwd) Re: dangers of TCPA/palladium In-Reply-To: <20020806044637.A552100@exeter.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Aug 2002, Adam Back wrote: > Response from Peter Biddle on cryptography list. (I think he is a > microsoft tech manager involved with palladium from a quick google). > > Adam > > ----- Forwarded message from "Peter N. Biddle" ----- > > From: "Peter N. Biddle" > To: "Cryptography" > Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 16:35:46 -0700 > The current TPM (version 1.1) doesn't have the primitives which we need to > support Palladium, and the privacy model is different. We are working within > TCPA to get the instruction set aligned so that Palladium and TCPA could use > future silicon for attestation, sealing, and authentication, but as things > stand today the approaches to the two of them are different enough so that > TCPA 1.1 can't support Pd. Wow. > Confusion. The memory isn't encrypted, nor are the apps nor the TOR when > they are on the hard drive. Encrypting the apps wouldn't make them more > secure, so they aren't encrypted. The CPU uses HW protections to wall new > running programs from the rest of the system and from each other. No one but > the app itself, named third parties, and the TOR can see into this apps > space. In fact, no one (should the app desire) can even know that the app is > running at all except the TOR, and the TOR won't report this information to > anyone without the apps permission. You can know this to be true because the > TOR will be made available for review and thus you can read the source and > decide for yourself if it behaves this way. So the question remains - can an outside controller send an app to the TOR such that the app does not report its existance to the user? Possibly not, but if the TCPA hardware allows the link, then Palladium is off the hook for being part of "the evil empire", and the empire wins anyway. > Correct enough for this thread; it is actually the TOR that will manage the > keys for the apps, as this makes the concept of migration and data roaming > far more manageable. (Yes, we have thought about this.) And as long as the user has control of the TOR, that's not a problem. But with TCPA, does the user still control the TOR? > Comparing xBox and Pd isn't particularly fruitful - they are different > problems and thus very different solutions. (Also note that xBox doesn't use > the PID or any other unique HW key.) Bummer :-) > Palladium mostly doesn't care about the BIOS and considers it to be an > untrusted system component. In Pd the BIOS can load any OS it wants, just > like today, and in Pd the OS can load any TOR specified by the user. The MS > TOR will run any app, as specified by the user. The security model doesn't > depend on some apps being prevented from running. > > I believe that there isn't a single thing you can do with your PC today > which is prevented on a Palladium PC. I am open to being challenged on this, > so please let me know what you think you won't be able to do on a Pd PC that > you can do today. Basicly, MS's point of view is that Palladium is their baby, and they need solutions to their problems. TCPA is independent, if they can be meshed, great (from MS's view), if they can't, so what! > Palladium doesn't boot strap the OS. Pd loads a secure piece of SW, called > the TOR, which runs in a secure space and loads other apps that want > security. Anyone can load an app into this environment and get the full > protections Pd offers. MS doesn't require that you show them the SW first - > you wanna run, you get to run - provided the user wants you to run. If a > user doesn't like the looks of your app, then you (the developer) have a > problem with that user. So long as that holds, seems ok. But what about a virus that loads into the TOR and tells the TOR "don't tell anyone I'm here". Seems like that could be a problem. > MS will not have the root keys to the world's computers. The TOR won't have > access to the private keys either. No one but the HW does. The TOR isn't > "MS" per se - it is a piece of SW written by users but vetted and examined > by hopefully thousands of parties and found to do nothing other than manage > the local security model upon which Pd depends. You can read it and know it > doesn't do anything but effectively manage keys and applications. And if you > don't trust it, you won't run it. > > If you don't trust the TOR, you don't trust Palladium. Trust is the *only* > feature we are attempting to achieve, so every decision we make will be made > with trust and security in mind. then I hope they move slowly and carefully. People don't trust microsoft much. > This is a problem anyone who wants to compete in the security and trust > space will need to overcome. I don't think that it is particularly new or > different in a world with Pd. Writing a TOR is going to be really hard and > will require processes and methods that are alien to many SW developers. One > example (of many) is that we are generating our header files from specs. You > don't change the header file, you change the spec and then gen the header. > This process is required for the highest degrees of predictability, and > those are cornerstones for the highest degree of trust. Unpredictable things > are hard to trust. This implies that anyone can write a TOR as part of their app??? Now I'm really confused! > Everything in the TCB (Trusted Computing Base) for Pd will be made available > for review to anyone who wants to review it; this includes software which > the MS TOR mandates must be loaded. I'll believe it when I see it :-) > This doesn't happen in Pd. There is no secure boot strap feature in Pd. The > BIOS boots up the PC the same way it does today. Root control is held by the > owner of the machine. There is no certification master key in Pd. OK, that's where TCPA becomes a problem. > I know that we aren't using undocumented API's and that we will strive for > the highest degree of interoperability and user control possible. Pd > represents massive de-centralization of trust, not the centralization of it. > > I think that time is going to have to tell on this one. I know that this > isn't true. You think that it is. I doubt that my saying it isn't true is > going to change your mind; I know that the technology won't do much of what > you are saying it does do, but I also know that some of these things boil > down to suspicion around intent, and only time will show if my intent is > aligned with my stated goals. Right on. If you guys want people to trust palladium, you better get the discussion out in the open in a hurry. The level of confusion is now high enough to sink it. > Pd does not give root control of your machine to someone else. It puts it > into your hands, to do with as you so desire, including hacking away at it > to your hearts content. That would be good :-) > I think that Pd represents an enhancement to personal freedoms and user > control over their machines. I hope that over time I will be able to explain > Pd sufficiently well so that you have all the facts you need to understand > how and why I say this. MS will need a "paradigm shift" in how they market things to get that point across. Good luck! Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike From stiglic at cs.mcgill.ca Tue Aug 6 07:33:32 2002 From: stiglic at cs.mcgill.ca (Anton Stiglic) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 10:33:32 -0400 Subject: dangers of TCPA/palladium References: <09fdc16bc6a040e13686c9150aca01d9@aarg.net> Message-ID: <004b01c23d56$3e3cf7e0$6900a8c0@p1038mobile> ----- Original Message ----- From: "AARG!Anonymous" To: ; ; Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 7:25 PM Subject: Re: dangers of TCPA/palladium > Adam Back writes: > > To address privacy with for example Brands digital credentials, the > > underlying cryptography may be harder to understand, or at least less > > familiar, but I don't think using a toolkit based on Brands digital > > credentials would be significantly harder than using an identity or > > attribute based PKI toolkit. Similar for Chaum's credentials or other > > approach. > > Sure, but how many pages would it take in the spec to describe the > protocol? Especially given their turgid technical-writer prose? > Brands took a whole book to describe his credentials thoroughly. Not many pages at all. See the description of practical protocols for private credentials here http://crypto.cs.mcgill.ca/~stiglic/Papers/brands.pdf The paper is not longer than Ben Laurie's write up of Lucre, and in my point of view just as readable. Of course it doesn't give details on the formatting of messages and other stuff (you won't find that in most descriptions of blind signatures protocols or Lucre either), but these can easily be added. There is enough information for developer who has basic knowledge in crypto to understand what an implementation of the scheme would look like, and also to validate an existing implementation of the particular protocols described. Brands' book is long and very technical because he describes in it many variations of his protocols and provides detailed proofs of security for each protocol. For a more simple reading that provides intuition and motivation for the technology read Stefan Brands' paper "A Technical Overview of Digital Credentials", http://www.xs4all.nl/~brands/overview.pdf --Anton --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From wmo at rebma.pro-ns.net Tue Aug 6 09:48:38 2002 From: wmo at rebma.pro-ns.net (Bill O'Hanlon) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 11:48:38 -0500 Subject: Get Your Free Credit Report! In-Reply-To: <809958817.1028650901273.mu@link2buy.com> References: <809958817.1028650901273.mu@link2buy.com> Message-ID: <20020806164838.GA5745@rebma.pro-ns.net> On Tue, Aug 06, 2002 at 04:33:26PM +0000, ConsumerInfo.Com wrote: [some spam] Sorry, folks. Hit the wrong key. Apologies for forwarding spam instead of deleting it. -Bill From eugen at leitl.org Tue Aug 6 02:54:50 2002 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 11:54:50 +0200 (CEST) Subject: dangers of TCPA/palladium In-Reply-To: <005601c23d2b$204b2980$6801a8c0@xpserver> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Aug 2002, Lucky Green wrote: > Though routinely professing otherwise, evidently Anonymous knows > nothing of the spirit of the TCPA. Anonymous, could you please disclose your identity to indicate you have no vested interest in the matter? Because otherwise I must assume I'm smelling a rat. You're picking up heavy bad mana contamination from the industry consortium when asking us to look at it with an open mind. Their past transaction track is rather dismal (why, they're liars or worse), so they certainly haven't earned that. Have you? From schoen at loyalty.org Tue Aug 6 12:11:39 2002 From: schoen at loyalty.org (Seth David Schoen) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 12:11:39 -0700 Subject: Privacy-enhancing uses for TCPA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20020806191139.GQ23240@zork.net> AARG!Anonymous writes: > I could go on and on, but the basic idea is always the same, and hopefully > once people see the pattern they will come up with their own ideas. > Being able to write software that trusts other computers allows for an > entirely new approach to security software design. TCPA can enhance > freedom and privacy by closing off possibilities for surveillance and > interference. The same technology that protects Sony's music content > in a DRM application can protect the data exchanged by a P2P system. > As Seth Schoen of the EFF paraphrases Microsoft, "So the protection of > privacy was the same technical problem as the protection of copyright, > because in each case bits owned by one party were being entrusted to > another party and there was an attempt to enforce a policy." > (http://vitanuova.loyalty.org/2002-07-05.html, 3rd bullet point) I would just like to point out that the view that "the protection of privacy [is] the same technical problem as the protection of copyright" is Microsoft's and not mine. I don't agree that these problems are the same. An old WinHEC presentation by Microsoft's Peter Biddle says that computer security, copyright enforcement, and privacy are the same problem. I've argued with Peter about that claim before, and I'm going to keep arguing about it. For one thing, facts are not copyrightable -- copyright law in the U.S. has an "idea/expression dichotomy", which, while it might be ultimately incoherent, suggests that copyright is not violated when factual information is reproduced or retransmitted without permission. So, for example, giving a detailed summary of the plot of a novel or a movie -- even revealing what happens in the ending! -- is not an infringement of copyright. It's also not something a DRM system can control. But privacy is frequently violated when "mere" facts are redistributed. It often doesn't matter that no bits, bytes, words, or sentences were copied verbatim. In some cases (sexual orientation, medical history, criminal history, religious or political belief, substance abuse), the actual informational content of a "privacy-sensitive" assertion is extremely tiny, and would probably not be enough to be "copyrightable subject matter". Sentences like "X is gay", "Y has had an abortion", "Z has AIDS", etc., are not even copyrightable, but their dissemination in certain contexts will have tremendous privacy implications. "Technical enforcement of policies for the use of a file within a computer system" is a pretty poor proxy for privacy. This is not to say that trusted computing systems don't have interesting advantages (and disadvantages) for privacy. -- Seth David Schoen | Reading is a right, not a feature! http://www.loyalty.org/~schoen/ | -- Kathryn Myronuk http://vitanuova.loyalty.org/ | From ctc-customer-service at tribune.com Tue Aug 6 13:33:40 2002 From: ctc-customer-service at tribune.com (ctc-customer-service at tribune.com) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 13:33:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Activate your account Message-ID: <4661412.1028666020388.JavaMail.turbine@ti099.mtvwca1-dc1.genuity.net> Hello coderpunks, Thank you for registering at chicagotribune.com. 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Your member name: coderpunks Thanks for joining us, chicagotribune.com staff From eresrch at eskimo.com Tue Aug 6 14:23:11 2002 From: eresrch at eskimo.com (Mike Rosing) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 14:23:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Privacy-enhancing uses for TCPA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Aug 2002, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > > "See this tiny part of the system does not, in and of itself in isolation, > 'give root' to the Englobulators, hence TCPA/Palladium is partway OK.". It is important for us to divide and conquer the "Englobulators". Clearly there is a division between TCPA and Palladium already, and we should use that division to ensure the failure of englobulation. I'm not so sure it will be easy, but it seems doable. Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike From jamesd at echeque.com Tue Aug 6 15:12:30 2002 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 15:12:30 -0700 Subject: Privacy-enhancing uses for TCPA In-Reply-To: References: <20020806191139.GQ23240@zork.net> Message-ID: <3D4FE75E.18907.3F10DB@localhost> -- On 6 Aug 2002 at 16:12, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > If we wish to improve security and privacy, then let us improve > ssh and GNUPG so that they can actually be installed and used by > more people. It is better to think about and to work on our own > systems than to waste time and money and effort on discovering > the endless "flaws" and "inadequacies" and "dangers" and the > endless amusing Panglossian "advantages" of TCPA/Palladium. Not everyone is equally evil, and even when they are equally evil not everyone is as immediate a threat. Roosevelt allied himself with Stalin, Reagan found himself fighting the same enemy puppet regime as Pol Pot was fighting. Hollywood is not TCPA, though there seem to be disturbing connections, and Palladium is not TCPA either. Hollywood wants to turn computers users by law into passive consumers of content generated by large corporations. Microsoft, despite all of its sins, has very different and less evil objectives. TCPA looks to me suspiciously like a stalking horse for the hollywood program. As yet, I do not know what the case is with Palladium. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG Zna/iIvm7+exkPJmH+Ywo/J1MS/WQtJX45T0vGSI 2doVQThla81OopVfWO1DW+1Ps9ao+2zjzU2p6mQ7I From remailer at aarg.net Tue Aug 6 15:15:17 2002 From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 15:15:17 -0700 Subject: USENIX Security TCPA/Palladium Panel Wednesday Message-ID: Lucky Green writes: > The slides of the talk on TCPA that I gave over the weekend at DEFCON > are now available at http://www.cypherpunks.to Amazing claims you are making there. Claiming that the TPM will be included on "all future motherboards"; claiming that an objective is to meet the operational needs of law enforcement and intelligence; claiming that TCPA members (all 170 of them?) have more access to his computer than the owner; fantasizing about an "approved hardware list" and "serial number revocation list" which don't exist in the spec(!); further fantasies about a "list of undesirable applications" (where do you get this stuff!). On page 16, the OS is going to start the secure time counter (but TCPA has no secure time feature!); synchronize time against authenticated time servers (again, no such thing is in the spec); and download the hardware and serial number revocation lists (nothing exists like this!). I honestly don't understand how you can say this when there is nothing like it in the TCPA specification. Are you talking to insiders about a future revision? Do you know for a fact that TCPA will hae SNRL's and such in the future? Or are you just being political, trying to increase pressure on TCPA *not* to go with serial number revocation lists and the like, by falsely claiming that this is in the design already? From remailer at aarg.net Tue Aug 6 15:20:02 2002 From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 15:20:02 -0700 Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA Message-ID: Lucky Green wrote: > Ray wrote: > > To make their denial credible, they could give the owner > > access to the private key of the TPM/SCP. But somehow I > > don't think that jibes with their agenda. > > Probably not surprisingly to anybody on this list, with the exception of > potentially Anonymous, according to the TCPA's own TPM Common Criteria > Protection Profile, the TPM prevents the owner of a TPM from exporting > the TPM's internal key. The ability of the TPM to keep the owner of a PC > from reading the private key stored in the TPM has been evaluated to E3 > (augmented). For the evaluation certificate issued by NIST, see: > > http://niap.nist.gov/cc-scheme/PPentries/CCEVS-020016-VR-TPM.pdf This has to be true for the basic security goal of remote trust, right? The purpose is so that the user can credibly convince a remote system that he is running a certain program. Explain to me how he could do this if he were able to reload the TPM key with one of his own, or get access to the private key? Wouldn't that let him forge arbitrary messages? You might as well complain that Verisign doesn't share their private key with everyone. Either way you lose the trust properties of the system. > > If I buy a lock I expect that by demonstrating ownership I > > can get a replacement key or have a locksmith legally open it. > > It appears the days when this was true are waning. At least in the PC > platform domain. We have had other systems which work like this for a long while. Many consumer devices are sealed such that if you open them you void the warranty. This is to your advantage as a consumer; it means that you can take the device in to get it fixed, and the intact seal proves that you didn't mess with the insides and break it. By your logic, consumers ought to be able to bypass such seals since they own the device. But if this were true, don't you agree that it would make the seals useless? From remailer at aarg.net Tue Aug 6 15:30:13 2002 From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG!Anonymous) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 15:30:13 -0700 Subject: dangers of TCPA/palladium Message-ID: <92c9d46bd78ecf2467179634873cd2e0@aarg.net> Lucky Green writes: > Though routinely professing otherwise, evidently Anonymous knows nothing > of the spirit of the TCPA: I have in fact never claimed to be a TCPA insider; quite the opposite, I have consistently explained that I am merely someone who has taken the time to study the specification and other documents in order to educate myself about the system. My interpretation of the spirit of the proposal comes solely from reading these documents. They go to considerable lengths to protect user privacy, even to the point that the main TPM key is an encrypt-only key, not allowed to issue signatures! I think this is to reduce the chance of mistakenly using it to sign attestations. Further, the protocol with the Privacy CA is very complex and adds considerable complexity. If they didn't care about privacy I don't think the design would devote this much effort to it. > I proposed the use of blinding schemes to the > TCPA as far back as 2 years ago as a substitute to the Privacy CAs > schemes which are subject to potential collusion. I believe > "unreceptive", rather than "very much open to this suggestion" would > more accurately describe the TCPA's spirit Anonymous holds so high. Maybe this is true, but I can certainly imagine reasons other than a secret desire to compromise users' privacy. Going with blinding would make the spec more complex, and they might well have had their hands full at the time just trying to get V1.0 out. Then there are the patent issues with either Chaum or Brands blinding. Plus, Brands works with very special-format keys, variants on discrete log keys, while the spec generally assumes RSA keys (possibly going to ECC). And finally, they may simply not have been that familiar with blinding technology, which isn't that widely known outside a small subset of the cryptographic community. TCPA is more of a security spec than a cryptographic one, and it's likely that not one of the main developers had every read a paper by Stefan Brands. Besides, after reading Lucky's absurdly conspiratorial slide show I am skeptical about how accurately he can be relied on to report information about TCPA. He obviously thinks they are the spawn of the devil and is willing to say anything in public in order to discredit them. Otherwise why would he have made so many charges at Defcon that are utterly without foundation? --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From jays at panix.com Tue Aug 6 13:12:25 2002 From: jays at panix.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 16:12:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Privacy-enhancing uses for TCPA In-Reply-To: <20020806191139.GQ23240@zork.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Aug 2002, Seth David Schoen wrote: < ... /> > This is not to say that trusted computing systems don't have interesting > advantages (and disadvantages) for privacy. > > -- > Seth David Schoen | Reading is a right, not a feature! I think that giving root of your machine to an entity you do not trust is not reasonable, even if it is claimed that the control so given is a partial and compartmentalized control. It is even more unreasonable in case the entity has repeatedly declared 1. their deep and abiding distrust of you 2. their minimal demand to have root on all the world's general purpose computers forever 3. their intent to obtain 2 by government mandate. If we wish to improve security and privacy, then let us improve ssh and GNUPG so that they can actually be installed and used by more people. It is better to think about and to work on our own systems than to waste time and money and effort on discovering the endless "flaws" and "inadequacies" and "dangers" and the endless amusing Panglossian "advantages" of TCPA/Palladium. TCPA/Palladium has several faces, but one of the most important faces is "deception, division, and diversion". It is not a good idea to work on improving the designs of our openly declared enemies. Nor is it good to spend much time examining tiny irrelevant details of TCPA/Palladium. Every such discussion I have seen starts by making the crudest errors in formal logic. Here is one important such error: "See this tiny part of the system does not, in and of itself in isolation, 'give root' to the Englobulators, hence TCPA/Palladium is partway OK.". oo--JS. From sunder at sunder.net Tue Aug 6 15:05:16 2002 From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 18:05:16 -0400 (edt) Subject: dangers of TCPA/palladium In-Reply-To: Message-ID: What kind of crack are you smoking? This is cypherpunks. Anonymous posters are the norm here. ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :NSA got $20Bill/year|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :and didn't stop 9-11|share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:Instead of rewarding|monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :their failures, we |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :should get refunds! |site, and you must change them very often. --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ On Tue, 6 Aug 2002, Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Tue, 6 Aug 2002, Lucky Green wrote: > > > Though routinely professing otherwise, evidently Anonymous knows > > nothing of the spirit of the TCPA. > > Anonymous, could you please disclose your identity to indicate you have no > vested interest in the matter? Because otherwise I must assume I'm > smelling a rat. You're picking up heavy bad mana contamination from the > industry consortium when asking us to look at it with an open mind. Their > past transaction track is rather dismal (why, they're liars or worse), so > they certainly haven't earned that. Have you? From peternbiddle at hotmail.com Tue Aug 6 19:08:25 2002 From: peternbiddle at hotmail.com (Peter N. Biddle) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 19:08:25 -0700 Subject: Privacy-enhancing uses for TCPA References: <20020806191139.GQ23240@zork.net> Message-ID: Neither of us really had the time to clearly articulate things last time, so I am glad you brought it up. My perspective is primarily from an architectural one, and it boils down to this: Platform security shouldn't choose favorites. I don't want there to be any second class data citizens, as the determination of who is a "first class" citizen and who isn't seems arbitrary and unfair, especially if you happen to be second class. The technology should be egalitarian and should be capable of treating all data the same. If a user wants data to be secure, or an application wants it's execution to be secure, they should be able to ask for and get the highest level of security that the platform can offer. You point out that legal and societal policy likes to lump some kinds of data together and then protect those lumps of data in certain ways from certain things. Policy may also leave the same data open for some kinds of usage and or exploitation in some circumstances. This is a fine and wonderful thing from a policy perspective. This kind of rich policy is only possible in a PC if that machine is capable of exerting the highest degrees of security to every object seeking it. You can't water the security up; you can only water it down. I don't think that the platform security functions should have to decide that some data looks like copyrighted information and so it must be treated in one way, while other data looks like national secrets and so should be treated differently. The platform shouldn't be able to make that choice on it's own. The platform needs someone else (eg the user) to tell it what policies to enforce. (Of course the policy engine required to automatically enforce policy judgement on arbitrary data would be impossible to manage. It would vary from country to country, and most importantly (from my architectural perspective) it's impossible to implement becuase the only SW with access to all data must be explicitly non-judgemental about what good or bad policy is.) More in-line: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Seth David Schoen" To: ; ; Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 12:11 PM Subject: Re: Privacy-enhancing uses for TCPA > AARG!Anonymous writes: > > > I could go on and on, but the basic idea is always the same, and hopefully > > once people see the pattern they will come up with their own ideas. > > Being able to write software that trusts other computers allows for an > > entirely new approach to security software design. TCPA can enhance > > freedom and privacy by closing off possibilities for surveillance and > > interference. The same technology that protects Sony's music content > > in a DRM application can protect the data exchanged by a P2P system. > > As Seth Schoen of the EFF paraphrases Microsoft, "So the protection of > > privacy was the same technical problem as the protection of copyright, > > because in each case bits owned by one party were being entrusted to > > another party and there was an attempt to enforce a policy." > > (http://vitanuova.loyalty.org/2002-07-05.html, 3rd bullet point) > > I would just like to point out that the view that "the protection of > privacy [is] the same technical problem as the protection of > copyright" is Microsoft's and not mine. I don't agree that these > problems are the same. You say above that you don't agree the the problems are the same, but you don't specify in what domain - policy, technical, legal, all of the above, something else? The examples you give below are not technical examples - I think that they are policy examples. What about from the technical perspective? > An old WinHEC presentation by Microsoft's Peter Biddle says that > computer security, copyright enforcement, and privacy are the same > problem. I've argued with Peter about that claim before, and I'm > going to keep arguing about it. The term I use is "a blob is a blob"... > For one thing, facts are not copyrightable -- copyright law in the > U.S. has an "idea/expression dichotomy", which, while it might be > ultimately incoherent, suggests that copyright is not violated when > factual information is reproduced or retransmitted without permission. > So, for example, giving a detailed summary of the plot of a novel or > a movie -- even revealing what happens in the ending! -- is not an > infringement of copyright. It's also not something a DRM system can > control. Isn't copyright a legal protection, and not a technical one? The efficacy of copyright has certainly benefited greatly from the limitations of the mediums it generally protects (eg books are hard and expensive to copy; ideas, quotes, reviews and satires are allowed and also (not coincidentally) don't suffer from the physical limitations imposed by the medium) and so those limitations can look like technical protections, but really they aren't. I agree that copyrighted material is subject to different policy from other kinds of information. What I disagree on is that the TOR should arbitrarily enforce a different policy for it becuase it thinks that it is copyrighted. The platform should enforce policy based on an external (user, application, service, whatever) policy assertion around a given piece of data. Note that data can enter into Pd completely encrypted and unable to be viewed by anything but a user-written app and the TOR. At that point the policy is that the app, and thus the user, decides what can be done with the data. The TOR simply enforces the protections. No one but the app and the TOR can see the data to attempt to exert policy. > But privacy is frequently violated when "mere" facts are redistributed. I swear that *I* was arguing this very point last time, and you were saying something else! Hmmm. Maybe we agree or something. > It often doesn't matter that no bits, bytes, words, or sentences were > copied verbatim. In some cases (sexual orientation, medical history, > criminal history, religious or political belief, substance abuse), the > actual informational content of a "privacy-sensitive" assertion is > extremely tiny, and would probably not be enough to be "copyrightable > subject matter". Sentences like "X is gay", "Y has had an abortion", > "Z has AIDS", etc., are not even copyrightable, but their dissemination > in certain contexts will have tremendous privacy implications. The platform should treat this kind of data with the highest degree of security and integrity available, and the level of security available should support local policy like "no SW can have access to this data without my explicit consent". The fact that the data is small makes it particularly sensitive as it is so highly portable, so there must be law to allow the legal assertion of policy independently from the technical exertion of policy, and there has to be some rationalization between the two approaches. While bandwidth limits the re-distribution of many kinds of content, it doesn't with this kind of info. (And of course bandwidth limitations aren't really technical protections and are subject to the vagaries of increased bandwidth. Not a good security model.) Not only should the platform be able to exert the highest degrees of control over this information on behalf of a user, it should also allow the user to make smart choices about who gets the info and what the policy is around the usage of this info remotely. This must be in a context where lying is both extremely difficult and onerous. Common sense dictates that the unlawful usage of some kinds of data is far more damaging (to society, individuals, groups, companies) than other kinds of data, and that some kinds of unlawful uses are worse than others, but common sense is not something that can be exercised by a computer program. This will need to be figured out by society and then the policy can be exerted accordingly. > "Technical enforcement of policies for the use of a file within a > computer system" is a pretty poor proxy for privacy. > > This is not to say that trusted computing systems don't have interesting > advantages (and disadvantages) for privacy. I am not sure I understand the dichotomy; technical enforcement of user defined policies around access to, and usage of, their local data would seem to be the right place to start in securing privacy. (Some annoying cliche about cleaning your own room first is nipping at the dark recesses of my brain ; I can't seem to place it.) When you have control over privacy sensitive information on your own machine you should be able to use similiar mechanisms to achieve similiar protections on other machines which are capable of exerting the same policy. You should also have an infrastructure which makes that policy portable and renewable. This is, of course, another technical / architectural argument. The actual policy around data like "X is gay" must come from society, but controls on the information itself originates with the user X, and thus the control on the data that represents this information must start in user X's platform. The platform should be capable of exerting the entire spectrum of possible controls. Peter ++++ > -- > Seth David Schoen | Reading is a right, not a feature! > http://www.loyalty.org/~schoen/ | -- Kathryn Myronuk > http://vitanuova.loyalty.org/ | > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > The Cryptography Mailing List > Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com > --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu Tue Aug 6 16:12:43 2002 From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 19:12:43 -0400 Subject: dangers of TCPA/palladium In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20020806231243.GA16294@ils.unc.edu> Didn't you know? "Anonymous" is VP Dick Cheney! -- Greg On Tue, Aug 06, 2002 at 06:05:16PM -0400, Sunder wrote: > > What kind of crack are you smoking? This is cypherpunks. Anonymous > posters are the norm here. > On Tue, 6 Aug 2002, Eugen Leitl wrote: > > > On Tue, 6 Aug 2002, Lucky Green wrote: > > > > > Though routinely professing otherwise, evidently Anonymous knows > > > nothing of the spirit of the TCPA. > > > > Anonymous, could you please disclose your identity to indicate you have no > > vested interest in the matter? Because otherwise I must assume I'm > > smelling a rat. You're picking up heavy bad mana contamination from the > > industry consortium when asking us to look at it with an open mind. Their > > past transaction track is rather dismal (why, they're liars or worse), so > > they certainly haven't earned that. Have you? From mean-green at hushmail.com Tue Aug 6 16:14:57 2002 From: mean-green at hushmail.com (mean-green at hushmail.com) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 19:14:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: NYTimes.com Article: The Memory Hole Message-ID: <20020806231457.3EA3AC403@email4.lga2.nytimes.com> This article from NYTimes.com has been sent to you by mean-green at hushmail.com. Increasing comparisons in NYT to Bush admin and 1984 tactics. mean-green at hushmail.com The Memory Hole August 6, 2002 By PAUL KRUGMAN Every government tries to make excuses for its past errors, but I don't think any previous U.S. administration has been this brazen about rewriting history to make itself look good. http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/06/opinion/06KRUG.html?ex=1029675697&ei=1&en=37c05941c9f1d426 HOW TO ADVERTISE --------------------------------- For information on advertising in e-mail newsletters or other creative advertising opportunities with The New York Times on the Web, please contact onlinesales at nytimes.com or visit our online media kit at http://www.nytimes.com/adinfo For general information about NYTimes.com, write to help at nytimes.com. Copyright 2002 The New York Times Company From rah at shipwright.com Tue Aug 6 16:50:32 2002 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 19:50:32 -0400 Subject: dangers of TCPA/palladium In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 6:05 PM -0400 on 8/6/02, Sunder wrote: > What kind of crack are you smoking? This is cypherpunks. Anonymous > posters are the norm here. I must admit the irony meter bobbles around a bit, even if Lucky's "nym" is little more than a nickname these days... Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From rah at shipwright.com Tue Aug 6 16:51:55 2002 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 19:51:55 -0400 Subject: NYTimes.com Article: The Memory Hole In-Reply-To: <20020806231457.3EA3AC403@email4.lga2.nytimes.com> References: <20020806231457.3EA3AC403@email4.lga2.nytimes.com> Message-ID: At 7:14 PM -0400 on 8/6/02, mean-green at hushmail.com wrote: > By PAUL KRUGMAN ...a well-known crypto-anarchist and anarchocapitalist. ;-) Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From peternbiddle at hotmail.com Tue Aug 6 20:06:04 2002 From: peternbiddle at hotmail.com (Peter N. Biddle) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 20:06:04 -0700 Subject: more TCPA stuff (Re: "trust me" pseudonyms in TCPA) Message-ID: Inline... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adam Back" To: "Mike Rosing" Cc: ; "Cryptography" ; "Adam Back" Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 2:26 PM Subject: more TCPA stuff (Re: "trust me" pseudonyms in TCPA) > On Mon, Aug 05, 2002 at 07:42:45AM -0700, Mike Rosing wrote: > > On Mon, 5 Aug 2002, Adam Back wrote: > Effectively I think the best succinct description of the platforms > motivation and function is that: > > "TCPA/Palladium is an extensible, general purpose programmable dongle > soldered to your mother board with centralised points belonging to > Microsoft/IBM/Intel/". The Pd SCP isn't extensible or programable. I wouldn't say that it is "general purpose" either, but I am not sure what you mean by this. It is soldered to your motherboard. It provides a limited (smaller than a TPM) feature set. Pd does not create a a centralised point belonging to Microsoft. There are no root certs from MS except those to certify our own nub and SW, and these are SW certs. How others do this for their SW is up to them. I expect that we will want to get third party certification for our Pd software as well as certing it ourselves. HW is assumed to be certified by whomever built it, based on whatever criteria they want to use for whatever the solution and cost dictate, and they too can get third-party certs as they see fit. It is entirely possible to run Pd and get it's benefits without telling MS Inc. anything about your machine. For Pd to work you have to tell the MS TOR (unless you are using a different TOR) about your machine, and so we have to prove to everyone that telling the TOR something is very different from telling MS Inc. something. Pd doesn't phone home on it's own. > >From my current understanding, the worst problem is the centralised > control of this platform. If it were completely open, and possible to > fix it's potential dangers, it would bring about a new framework of > secured computing and could be a net positive. In it's current form > with centralised control and other problems it could be a big net > negative. There isn't centralized control in Pd. Users are in control. It is up to whomever cares about the trust on a given system to decide if they trust it, and this obviously must start with the user. Peter ++++ --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com ----- End forwarded message ----- From peternbiddle at hotmail.com Tue Aug 6 20:42:12 2002 From: peternbiddle at hotmail.com (Peter N. Biddle) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 20:42:12 -0700 Subject: USENIX Security TCPA/Palladium Panel Wednesday References: <20020807005743.A558194@exeter.ac.uk> Message-ID: I consider it a Bad Thing that we don't have more clearly organized technical documentaion to show right now, and I can only say that we are working on providing this post haste. I certainly am not happy to be pointing you to blogs as primary sources. I apologize for this, and I will send stuff out to this alias when we have it. Peter ++++ > - analysis is greatly hampered by the lack of definitive, concise, > clearly organized technical documentation. Some of the main > informative documents even microsoft is pointing at are like personal > blog entries and copies of personal email exchanges. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adam Back" To: "AARG!Anonymous" Cc: ; ; Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 4:57 PM Subject: Re: USENIX Security TCPA/Palladium Panel Wednesday > Anonymous: clearly Lucky and Ross have been talking about two aspects > of the TCPA and Palladium platforms: > > 1) the implications of platform APIs planned for first phase > implementation based on the new platform hardware support; > > 2) the implications of the fact that the owner of the machine is > locked out from the new ring-0; > > For 2) one obviously has to go beyond discussing the implications of > the APIs discussed in the documents, so the discussion has included > other APIs that could be built securely with their security rooted in > the new third-party controlled ring-0. > > In my initial two messages looking at implications I did try to > clearly distinguish between documented planned APIs and new APIs that > become possible to build with third-party controlled ring-0s. > > Other areas where analysis is naturally deviating from the aspects > covered by the available documentation (such as it is) are: > > - discussion of likelihood that a given potential API will be built > > - looking at history of involved parties: > > - Intel: pentium serial number > - Microsoft: litany of anti-competetive and unethical business > practices, > - governments: history of trying to push key-escrow, censorship, > thought-crime and technologies and laws attempting to enforce > these infringements of personal freedom > - RIAA/MPAA: history of lobbying for legislation such as DMCA, > eroding consumer rights > - industry/government collaboration: Key Recovery Alliance > (www.kra.org), which shows an interesting intersection of > big-companies who are currently and historically were signed on to > assist the government in deploying key-escrow > > - suspicion that the TCPA/Microsoft are putting their own spin and > practicing standard PR techniques: like selective disclosure, > misleading statements, disclaiming planned applications and hence not > taking everything at face value. TCPA/Microsoft have economic > pressures to spin TCPA/Palladium positively. > > - analysis is greatly hampered by the lack of definitive, concise, > clearly organized technical documentation. Some of the main > informative documents even microsoft is pointing at are like personal > blog entries and copies of personal email exchanges. > > a number of your responses have been of the form "hey that's not a > fair argument, what section number in the TCPA/Palladium documents > gives the specification for that API". > > I suspect some arguing about the dangers of TCPA/palladium feel no > particular obligation to point out this distinction the fact that an > API is not planned in phase 1, or not publicly announced yet offers > absolutely no safe-guard against it's later deployment. > > Adam > > On Tue, Aug 06, 2002 at 03:15:17PM -0700, AARG!Anonymous wrote: > > Lucky Green writes: > > > The slides of the talk on TCPA that I gave over the weekend at DEFCON > > > are now available at http://www.cypherpunks.to > > > > Amazing claims you are making there. Claiming that the TPM will be > > included on "all future motherboards"; claiming that an objective is > > to meet the operational needs of law enforcement and intelligence; > > claiming that TCPA members (all 170 of them?) have more access to his > > computer than the owner; fantasizing about an "approved hardware list" > > and "serial number revocation list" which don't exist in the spec(!); > > further fantasies about a "list of undesirable applications" (where do > > you get this stuff!). > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > The Cryptography Mailing List > Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com > --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From rabbi at quickie.net Tue Aug 6 23:28:08 2002 From: rabbi at quickie.net (Len Sassaman) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 23:28:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CodeCon 2003 Call for Papers Message-ID: CodeCon 2.0 February 2003, San Francisco CA, USA www.codecon.info Call For Papers CodeCon is the premier showcase of active hacker projects. It is an excellent opportunity for developers to demonstrate their work, and for coding hackers to find out about what's going on in their community. All presentations must be accompanied by functional applications, ideally open source. Presenters must be one of the active developers of the code in question. We emphasize that demonstrations be of *working* code, and reproducible by other people. Throughout the event, we will have several kiosks and local servers available for demonstration purposes. CodeCon strongly encourages presenters from non-commercial and academic backgrounds to attend for the purposes of collaboration and the sharing of knowledge by providing free registration to workshop presenters and discounted registration to full-time students. We hereby solicit papers and demonstrations. * Papers and proposals due: December 1, 2002 * Authors notified: December 15, 2002 * Demonstration materials due: January 15, 2003 The focus of CodeCon is on working applications which: * enhance individual power and liberty * can be discussed freely, either by virtue of being open source or having a published protocol, and preferably free of intellectual property restrictions * are generally useful, either directly to a large number of users, or as an example of technology applicable to a larger audience * demonstrate novelty in technical approaches, security assumptions, and end-user functionality Possible topics include, but are by no means restricted to: * development tools - languages, debuggers, version control * file sharing systems - swarming distribution, distributed search * community-based web sites - forums, weblogs, personals * security products - mail encryption, intrusion detection, firewalls Presentations will be a 45 minutes long, with 15 minutes allocated for Q&A. Overruns will be truncated. Submission details: Submissions are being accepted immediately. Acceptance dates are September 1, November 1, and December 1. On each acceptance date, submissions will be either accepted, rejected, or deferred to the next acceptance date. The conference language is English. All submissions should be accompanied by source code or an application. When possible, we would prefer that the application be available for interactive use during the workshop, either on a presenter-provided demonstration machine or one of the conference kiosks. Ideally, demonstrations should be usable by attendees with 802.11b connected devices either via a web interface, or locally on Windows, UNIX-like, or MacOS platforms. Cross-platform applications are most desirable. Our venue may be 21+. If you are submitting and are under 21, please advise the program committee; we may consider alternate venues for one or more days of the event. If you have a specific day on which you would prefer to present, please advise us. To submit, send mail to submissions at codecon.info including the following information: * Project name * url of project home page * tagline - one sentence or less summing up what the project does * names of presenter(s) and urls of their home pages, if they have any * one-paragraph bios of presenters (optional) * project history, no more than a few sentences * what will be done in the project demo * major achievement(s) so far * claim(s) to fame, if any * future plans Conference Producers and co-chairs: Bram Cohen, Len Sassaman Program Committee: * Tina Bird, Counterpane * Bram Cohen, BitTorrent * Roger Dingledine, The Freehaven Project * Jered Floyd, Permabit * Paul Holman, The Shmoo Group * Ben Laurie, The Apache Foundation * Don Marti, Linux Journal * Jordan Ritter, Cloudmark * Len Sassaman, Nomen Abditum Services * Rodney Thayer, The Tillerman Group * Jamie Zawinski, DNA Lounge Sponsorship: If your organization is interested in sponsoring CodeCon, we would love to hear from you. In particular, we are looking for sponsors for social meals and parties on any of the three days of the conference, as well as sponsors of the conference as a whole, prizes or awards for quality presentations, scholarships for qualified applicants, and assistance with transportation or accommodation for presenters with limited resources. If you might be interested in sponsoring any of these aspects, please contact the conference organizers at codecon-admin at codecon.info. Press policy: CodeCon strives to be a conference for developers, with strong audience participation. As such, we need to limit the number of complimentary passes non-developer attendees. Press passes are limited to one pass per publication, and must be approved prior to the registration deadline (to be announced later). If you are a member of the press, and interested in covering CodeCon, please contact us early by sending email to press at codecon.info. Members of the press who do not receive press-passes are welcome to participate as regular conference attendees. Questions: If you have questions about CodeCon, or would like to contact the organizers, please mail codecon-admin at codecon.info. Please note this address is only for questions and administrative requests, and not for workshop presentation submissions. Please note: do not email the old addresses at "codecon.org". Use "codecon.info", or else they will not reach us. From new_soft2765y60 at consultant.com Wed Aug 7 01:02:45 2002 From: new_soft2765y60 at consultant.com (new_soft2765y60 at consultant.com) Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 00:02:45 -0800 Subject: NORTON SYSTEMWORKS CLEARANCE SALE! Message-ID: <031a14b02c8e$8541a0c6$7db05db5@obwhis> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3322 bytes Desc: not available URL: From adam at cypherspace.org Tue Aug 6 16:57:43 2002 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 00:57:43 +0100 Subject: USENIX Security TCPA/Palladium Panel Wednesday In-Reply-To: ; from remailer@aarg.net on Tue, Aug 06, 2002 at 03:15:17PM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20020807005743.A558194@exeter.ac.uk> Anonymous: clearly Lucky and Ross have been talking about two aspects of the TCPA and Palladium platforms: 1) the implications of platform APIs planned for first phase implementation based on the new platform hardware support; 2) the implications of the fact that the owner of the machine is locked out from the new ring-0; For 2) one obviously has to go beyond discussing the implications of the APIs discussed in the documents, so the discussion has included other APIs that could be built securely with their security rooted in the new third-party controlled ring-0. In my initial two messages looking at implications I did try to clearly distinguish between documented planned APIs and new APIs that become possible to build with third-party controlled ring-0s. Other areas where analysis is naturally deviating from the aspects covered by the available documentation (such as it is) are: - discussion of likelihood that a given potential API will be built - looking at history of involved parties: - Intel: pentium serial number - Microsoft: litany of anti-competetive and unethical business practices, - governments: history of trying to push key-escrow, censorship, thought-crime and technologies and laws attempting to enforce these infringements of personal freedom - RIAA/MPAA: history of lobbying for legislation such as DMCA, eroding consumer rights - industry/government collaboration: Key Recovery Alliance (www.kra.org), which shows an interesting intersection of big-companies who are currently and historically were signed on to assist the government in deploying key-escrow - suspicion that the TCPA/Microsoft are putting their own spin and practicing standard PR techniques: like selective disclosure, misleading statements, disclaiming planned applications and hence not taking everything at face value. TCPA/Microsoft have economic pressures to spin TCPA/Palladium positively. - analysis is greatly hampered by the lack of definitive, concise, clearly organized technical documentation. Some of the main informative documents even microsoft is pointing at are like personal blog entries and copies of personal email exchanges. a number of your responses have been of the form "hey that's not a fair argument, what section number in the TCPA/Palladium documents gives the specification for that API". I suspect some arguing about the dangers of TCPA/palladium feel no particular obligation to point out this distinction the fact that an API is not planned in phase 1, or not publicly announced yet offers absolutely no safe-guard against it's later deployment. Adam On Tue, Aug 06, 2002 at 03:15:17PM -0700, AARG!Anonymous wrote: > Lucky Green writes: > > The slides of the talk on TCPA that I gave over the weekend at DEFCON > > are now available at http://www.cypherpunks.to > > Amazing claims you are making there. Claiming that the TPM will be > included on "all future motherboards"; claiming that an objective is > to meet the operational needs of law enforcement and intelligence; > claiming that TCPA members (all 170 of them?) have more access to his > computer than the owner; fantasizing about an "approved hardware list" > and "serial number revocation list" which don't exist in the spec(!); > further fantasies about a "list of undesirable applications" (where do > you get this stuff!). From khrecments at hsgjhsdhtge.vlgr Wed Aug 7 02:53:07 2002 From: khrecments at hsgjhsdhtge.vlgr (hil__Kelly) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 02:53:07 -0700 Subject: Discreet Extramarital Dating ............................................................................ rptm Message-ID: <200208070952.g779qcR02820@waste.minder.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1719 bytes Desc: not available URL: From alert at giftcd.com Wed Aug 7 01:42:09 2002 From: alert at giftcd.com (GiftCD Alert) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 03:42:09 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Canon 360 Folding Calculator. Your Sample. 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Message-ID: <200208070858.g778wWC83014@mtf110.fztrk.com> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> GiftCD Offer Newsletter August 2nd, 2002 ---------------------------------------------------------- Thank you for your subscription. As a valued GiftCD subscriber, check out this great offer! +--------------------------------------------------------+ Canon 360 Folding Calculator. Free with NO SHIPPING! +--------------------------------------------------------+ Canon calculator product sample is yours for FREE! Yes, but only limited supplies. Grab one while still available! http://www.giftcd.com/offers/track_canon_free.shtml +--------------------------------------------------------+ Free watch! Free S-Shock Hot Summer 2002e. +--------------------------------------------------------+ Limited summer collection. Grab one of the hottest shock-resistant sporting watch for FREE. http://www.giftcd.com/offers/track_summer_shockwatch.shtml ---------------------------------------------------------- >> Subscription, Disclaimer & Copyright ---------------------------------------------------------- This email is part of your GiftCD Newsletter subscription. If you are no longer interested, please forward this email to: unsubscribenow at giftcd.com Any free stuff you'll like to share with other members? We welcome suggestions, comments and feedback. Email: optinsupport at giftcd.com ========================================================== Copyright 2002 GiftCD.com. All rights reserved. From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Wed Aug 7 04:41:44 2002 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 06:41:44 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Test #1 [No Reply] Message-ID: -- ____________________________________________________________________ When I die, I would like to be born again as me. Hugh Hefner ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com jchoate at open-forge.org www.open-forge.org -------------------------------------------------------------------- From adam at cypherspace.org Tue Aug 6 23:20:16 2002 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 07:20:16 +0100 Subject: dangers of TCPA/palladium In-Reply-To: ; from peternbiddle@hotmail.com on Mon, Aug 05, 2002 at 04:35:46PM -0700 References: <20020805060031.A518477@exeter.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20020807072016.A549171@exeter.ac.uk> Thanks for the clarifications of the differences between TCPA and Palladium. The lack of Palladium docs and fact that TCPA docs describe OS level features led to the inference that Palladium unless otherwise stated did what TCPA proposed. Peter Biddle writes: > Adam Back wrote: > > I think some of the current disagreements and not very strongly > > technology grounded responses to anonymous are due to the lack of any > > concise and informative papers describing TCPA and palladium. > > I agree, and from my perspective this is a problem. We have a great deal of > information we need to get out there. * Documentation I'm feeling frustrated in being unable to properly analyse Palladium due to lack of documentation. Surely microsoft must have _some_ internal documentation that could be released. Two second hand blog articles by third parties doesn't quite cut it! The documents claim privacy advocacy group consultation? Could the information shared with these groups be published? It's quite difficult to reason about implications and limits of a novel new architecture with incomplete information -- you need grounded facts down to the technical details to work out what the implications are from first principles and compare and evaluate the proponents claims. * privacy CA > The suggestions for TCPA responses that William Arbaugh raises seem > quite good (c). 1 and 2 are already true for Pd, I believe that 3 is > true but I would need to talk with him about what he means here to > confirm it, 4 is covered in Eric Norlin's blog (d), and 5 is > something we should do. Insufficient data to comment on the degree of openness provided by palladium for 1 (allow owner to load trusted root cert), and 2 (allow TPM to be completely disabled). For 3, the TCPA version of the "privacy CA" is broken (implemented using "trust me" by a server the user does not and should not have to trust). Does Palladium do something different? later in same message you said: > The privacy model in Pd is different from TCPA. I could go on for a > long time about it, but the key difference is that the public key is > only revealed to named third parties which a user trusts. You are > right in thinking that you need to trust them, but you don't have to > show anyone your key if you don't trust them, so you (the user) are > always in control of this. It sounds as if Palladium suffers from the same broken privacy problem as TCPA then. Saying you have a choice about whether to use a service doesn't alter the fact that you are linkable and identifiable to some extent -- the extent depending on the exact permutation of attribute, identity and endoresment certificates you have used. This vulnerability is unnecessary. You can certifying things without having to trust anyone. * architecture functionality >From the limited information available my understanding is that the main features of Palladium together with a hardware collection called the SCP (= ?) can do the following things: 1. no secure-bootstrapping -- unlike TCPA this is not implemented 2. software-attestation -- Palladium uses SCP able to hash perhaps the TOR, Trusted Agents, and application software, and then uses TCPA-like endorsed hardware keys in the SCP to remotely attest to these hashes. 3. hardware assisted compartmentalization -- CPU can run another layer of privileged software with ability to prevent supervisor mode (and user mode) reading chosen user mode process memory areas. The ubermode code is called the TOR. The supervisor mode can install any TOR into the ubermode, but the TOR can be remotely attested(?) 4. sealing -- TCPA-style sealing on 2, softeware-attestation from information so far, it's unclear what is hashed and what is attested. on 3, hardware assisted compartmentalization - Presumably Palladium enabled applications would refuse to run unless a Palladium/Microsoft certified TOR is running? - Limits the meaningfulness of claims of openness in loading your own TOR. More "you can turn x off but nothing will work if you do". - or perhaps it is up to the individual Palladium application which TOR it trusts? - but wouldn't this lead to a break: - If a microsoft written Palladium enabled application would talk to any TOR, user can load a TOR which is under user control to by-pass the compartmentalized memory restrictions, regaining root. But if he can do this, he can break Palladium enforced DRM. also about hardware assisted compartmentalization, earlier I said: > > Optionally the software source can be published but that is not > > necessary, and if it's not you won't be able to reverse-engineer it > > as it can be encrypted for the CPU you responded: > Confusion. The memory isn't encrypted, nor are the apps nor the TOR > when they are on the hard drive. Encrypting the apps wouldn't make > them more secure, so they aren't encrypted. If I understand the architecture makes it possible to write a TOR which supports encrypted applications encrypted for the machines key which is stored in the SCP. I thought this scheme would be in the current design because as far as I can see this would in fact be necessary for strong copy protection for software (software licensed only for a given machine), which I presumed microsoft has an interest in. It would be a bit like a "sealed" application. * on claim "palladium doesn't prevent anything": > I believe that there isn't a single thing you can do with your PC > today which is prevented on a Palladium PC. I am open to being > challenged on this, so please let me know what you think you won't > be able to do on a Pd PC that you can do today. Well as you can still run the same software that is a tautology. The correct question is: can Palladium enabled software prevent you from doing things you could do with non-Palladium enabled software. Palladium is in fact designed explicitly to prevent the user doing things! The are whole classes of things Palladium enabled software using Trusted Agents, a default TOR and SCP features can prevent the user from doing: - it prevents the owner modifying application code running on his machine which uses the remote-attestation functions to talk to remote servers - it could be used to robustly prevent the user auditing what information flowing into and out of his machine (the user can't obtain the keys negotiated by the SCP and a remote site, and can't grab the keys from the application because it's a trusted agent running in a TOR mediated code compartment.) - it could be used to make file formats which are impossible for third parties to be compatible with (Ross Anderson came up with this example in [4]) - it could be used to securely hide undocumented APIs - it could be used to securely implement software copy-protection using encrypt for endorsed SCP stored machine keys - it could be used to prevent reverse-engineering applications - it could be used for DRM to enforce play-once, to revoke fair use rights or any other arbitrary policies (on formats only available to Palladium enabled applications) - it could be used to implement key-escrow of SCP stored keys to put government or corporate backdoors in sealed data, and comms with remote servers encrypted using SCP negotiated keys; wasn't there a statement somewhere that CAPI uses would more immediately get benefit from Palladium SCP functions? Not sure how the mix of non-palladium using CAPI applications and palladium enabled SCP and/or CAP using applications work out for the key-escrow implementing TOR scenario. now as I mentioned in an earlier post you could claim, oh that's ok because the user has choice, he can still boot with his own custom TOR. In the short term that argument would work. In the long term we run the risk that: a) many users will be so baffled by technology they won't know when they are at risk and when they are not. b) new non-backwards compatible file formats and feature creep together with potential "palladium only format" enforcement could start to make it very inconvenient to use non-standard TORs or non palladium applications. On top of that there are next gen issues, and on-going legal issues. For example what happens when this scenario plays out: 1. recent release digital content is published early (same time as cinema for the right price say). 2. hardware hackers do a break-once run anywhere by ripping all the content on their hacked machine and start distributing it on kazaa (2.5 Peta-bytes of ripped content and growing weekly) 3. RIAA/MPAA goes back and lobbys for further controls, DMCA extensions 4. new legal, DMCA and RIAA/MPAA, and competition from Sony pressures are placed on microsoft difficult to see that far out what is going to happen, but blase presumptions that it's unrealistic to expect key-escrow, or certified TOR only and to assume that Lucky Green's Document Revocation Lists don't get rolled out with DMCA style laws against interfering with -- that ignores a lot of history. Also mentioned in previous post: just because it's law doesn't mean it should be enforced. People are currently afforded the ability to ignore the masses of extreme and ridiculous IP law as individuals. When a large chunk of it gets implemented into DRM, and narcware the once free-wheeling internet information exchanges will become marginalized, or underground only affairs -- the world will become stifled by their own computers acting as the policeman inside -- your own computer deputized by the US government, DMCA et al. > > So what I've read so far, I think people's gut reactions are right -- > > that it's an aggressive and abmitious power grab by the evil empire -- > > the 3 cartels / monopolies surrounding PC hardware, Operating systems > > and Content Distribution. The operating system near monoply will > > doubtless find creative ways to use and expand the increased control > > to control application interoperability (with the sealing function), > > to control with hardware assistance the access to undocumented APIs > > (no more reverse engineering, or using the APIs even if you do / could > > reverse engineer). > > I know that we aren't using undocumented API's I think you must have misinterpreted what I said: I wasn't talking about Palladium APIs. I was talking about the fact that microsoft has historically used undocumented APIs as a business tactic, and I presume this is still an ongoing strategy, and the Palladium hardware architecture could be used to build a TOR which forced competitors attempting to discover undocumented APIs in order to fairly compete to resort to hardware hacking. Unless and until we get the software copyright analog of DMCA reverse-engineering restrictions which makes that illegal. > and that we will strive for the highest degree of interoperability > and user control possible. Pd represents massive de-centralization > of trust, not the centralization of it. I'm not sure what you mean by "de-centralized trust". Perhaps that the TOR is publicly audited? Perhaps that there are multiple vendors endorsing SCP implementations? I think Palladium clearly has possibilities to magnify centralized control. It is in microsoft's economic interests, and historically their modus-operandi to aggresively try to create and exploit control points to extract monopolistic rents, and/or suppress competition. And of course other companies also have used the same strategies, but the current limits placed on such practices by the ability to reverse engineer for compatibility may come to be eroded by TCPA/Palladium. > I think that time is going to have to tell on this one. I know that this > isn't true. You think that it is. I doubt that my saying it isn't true is > going to change your mind; I know that the technology won't do much of what > you are saying it does do, but I also know that some of these things boil > down to suspicion around intent, and only time will show if my intent is > aligned with my stated goals. It's nothing personal, it's just that intent is open to evolutionary change, legislative attack, pressures outside of your personal, or microsoft's control -- economic and legal incentives will arise which make the platform deviate from current stated intent. 2002 stated intent is zip guarantee. Someone sent me this hugely appropriate quote in email relating to this point: | "You do not examine legislation in the light of the benefits it will | convey if properly administered, but in the light of the wrongs it | would do and the harms it would cause if improperly administered." - | Lyndon Johnson except here we are not talking about legislation directly but a hardware platform with the tools to create different control points and the legal and business pressures that act upon the use and misuse of that platform and those created control points. > I think that Pd represents an enhancement to personal freedoms and > user control over their machines. I hope that over time I will be > able to explain Pd sufficiently well so that you have all the facts > you need to understand how and why I say this. I can only think that your definitions of user control probably are in terms of abstract "security" rather than a distrusting viewpoint that wants to be able to audit and modify application behavior. I presume you mean "freedom" in the sense of freedom from the ills that it is claimed Palladium enabled applications could improve. I think of freedom as the ability for self-determination, to completely control and audit all aspects of software running on my system. Without these freedoms applications and vendors can conspire against the machine owner. I suspect the majority of people feel similarly. With current information it seems that the Palladium platform is damaging to freedom and indivdual liberty, and a future risk to free society. I am of course completely open to being proven wrong, and look forward to seeing more detailed Palladium specs so that this can be tested, and to see the community given the opportunity to point out potential more open and less control point prone modifications. Adam [4] "Security in Open versus Closed Systems (The Dance of Boltzmann, Coase and Moore)", Ross Anderson, (Sections 4 and 5 only, rest is unrelated) http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/ftp/users/rja14/toulouse.pdf From eugen at leitl.org Tue Aug 6 23:20:09 2002 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 08:20:09 +0200 (CEST) Subject: dangers of TCPA/palladium In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Aug 2002, Sunder wrote: > What kind of crack are you smoking? This is cypherpunks. Anonymous > posters are the norm here. The point is not that some people here are posting anonymously, the point is that Anonymous could make a far stronger point by disclosing his identity, thus showing that he has no vested interest in the matter. His psyops-fu is rather good, I'm curious if this correlates with the views he's projecting. From admin at hrpromo.com Wed Aug 7 06:07:01 2002 From: admin at hrpromo.com (Admin HR Promo) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 09:07:01 -0400 Subject: Diversity Recruiting Resource 2614 Message-ID: Pricing Booth Rate $3250.00 Government $2437.50 Education $1650.00 Sponsorship Packages Corporate Level 2 Avail. Affiliate Level 5 Avail. Check with PSI for Details Program Advertising: Full Page: $595 Inside Front Cover: $1295 Inside Back Cover: $1295 Ctr. 2-page Spread $1295 Back Cover $1295 2-page Spread $995 Contact PSI about this and other events. PERSONNEL STRATEGIES LLC Wells Fargo Bank Building 1809 S. 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Attendees: The CBCF 2002 Annual Legislative Conference is attended by affluent and politically involved African Americans from throughout the USA. The Conference provides a national forum for developing strategies and viable solutions for the public policies facing Black America. Everyone from college students to Corporate CEO's all interact to explore both an influence and an understanding of the legislative process. Over 30,000 are expected to attend the 2002 Conference. SPONSORSHIP PACKAGES Corporate Sponsorship: (2 Available) $12,500.00 Includes 2 booths, 2-page 4-color Program Ad, Company logo featured in event print promotions, Full page Program Advertorial, on-site signage, framed certificate, & more. Affiliate Sponsorship: (5 Available) $8,500.00 Includes 2 booths, full page 4-color Program Ad, Company Logo in print promotions. On-site signage, framed certificate & more. Click If you do NOT wish to continue receiving messages from HRpromo.com To CHANGE YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS and continue receiving messages click here We respect all removal requests. HRpromo.com 26 Church St. South Orange, New Jersey 07079 973-313-1711 info at hrpromo.com If you experience difficulty removing through the click here send an email to remove at hrpromo.com and you will be removed from our mailing list. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 9410 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gjones2 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 7 02:26:59 2002 From: gjones2 at hotmail.com (gjones2 at hotmail.com) Date: 07 Aug 02 09:26:59 -0000 Subject: Term Life, Whole Life, Burial Insurance Quotes, Now Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1713 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sunder at sunder.net Wed Aug 7 07:07:44 2002 From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 10:07:44 -0400 (edt) Subject: dangers of TCPA/palladium - will the real anon shady please stand up? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Waaa, he was vicious! He used a remailer!" Oh my! Well that's just proof that he's working for Microsoft! (With a nudge, nudge, wink, wink, say no more to Monty Python.) You've called him on it several times. Get over it. I couldn't give a fuck whether or not "it" (unless it has expressed a gender clue to the contrary, I'll randomy assign "he" to it) is Bill Gate's personal buttboy. If his arguement is BS it will stand on its own as BS. Shame on you. Bad dog! All you're doing is weaking your own arguements. IMNHO TCPA sucks balls. But "anonymous" has the right to speak anonymously as does anyone, and most of us here will defend that right, regardless of accepting or rejecting TCPA/Palladium/MSFT. You remember that old saw about "I may not agree with you, but I will defend your right to say it to the death" -- just add anonymously in there. It's up to that "anon" or collection of anons to chose to disclose it's/their affiliation/admiration for MSFT or not. Besides, from what I've seen, those anon messages weren't signed. So I can claim "I am that anonymous" and so can Vulis, Choate, Lucky, Tim, Declan, RAH, yourself, your mom, the horse she rode on, the FedZ, the NSA spook Satelite dancers (like the Rockettes, but they wear stego-panty stockings and have barcodes on their foreheads sent by Lotus Notes so the DIRNSA has a copy), and the Man Show Juggies. So what? Would the real "anon shady please stand up?" ROTFL! ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :NSA got $20Bill/year|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :and didn't stop 9-11|share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:Instead of rewarding|monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :their failures, we |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :should get refunds! |site, and you must change them very often. --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ On Wed, 7 Aug 2002, Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Tue, 6 Aug 2002, Sunder wrote: > > > What kind of crack are you smoking? This is cypherpunks. Anonymous > > posters are the norm here. > > The point is not that some people here are posting anonymously, the point > is that Anonymous could make a far stronger point by disclosing his > identity, thus showing that he has no vested interest in the matter. > > His psyops-fu is rather good, I'm curious if this correlates with the > views he's projecting. From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Wed Aug 7 11:16:20 2002 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 11:16:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Deterministic Primality Testing in P Message-ID: <200208071816.g77IGKb02080@artifact.psychedelic.net> In case anyone missed it, Manindra Agrawal and his colleagues at the Indian Institute of Technology have published a paper http://www.cse.iitk.ac.in/primality.pdf Which purports to give an O(log(n)^12) deterministic algorithm for primality testing. Someone on sci.math reports.. "Hendrik Lenstra just wrote to the Number Theory mailing list saying that the proof is correct, clever and elegant; and it is elementary except for one result from analytic number theory needed to establish the running time." In other math news, there's a recent survey on the P vs NP Conjecture at http://www.cs.umd.edu/~gasarch/papers/poll.ps Of 100 theorists responding, 9 thought NP=P, 61 thought NP!=P, 22 had no opinion, and 8 quibbled over what axiom system would be used. The piece includes comments by many of the respondents, including Donald E. Knuth. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From rah at shipwright.com Wed Aug 7 08:27:38 2002 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 11:27:38 -0400 Subject: dangers of TCPA/palladium - will the real anon shady please stand up? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 10:07 AM -0400 on 8/7/02, Sunder wrote: > Besides, from what I've seen, those anon messages weren't signed. So I > can claim "I am that anonymous" and so can Vulis, Choate, Lucky, Tim, > Declan, RAH, yourself, your mom, the horse she rode on, the FedZ, the NSA > spook Satelite dancers (like the Rockettes, but they wear stego-panty > stockings and have barcodes on their foreheads sent by Lotus Notes so the > DIRNSA has a copy), and the Man Show Juggies. So what? > > Would the real "anon shady please stand up?" ROTFL! :-). See below... Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "...we ain't nothin' but mammals." --Eminem From sunder at sunder.net Wed Aug 7 09:08:32 2002 From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 12:08:32 -0400 (edt) Subject: dangers of TCPA/palladium - will the real anon shady please stand up? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Aug 2002, Eugen Leitl wrote: > Are you being deliberately dense? The facts that he's using a remailer and > has most uncypherpunk-like notions are alone insufficient to trip the > suspicion circuit. But his insinuations are unusually good, and hence I'd > like to know who he is. I'm just deliberately trying to avoid donning a tin foil hat. YPMV (Your Paranoia May Vary.) Somehow I think a lack of tin surrounding my head makes it less dense though. No, I'm do not have any investments or any relations with Microsoft - other than I think all their software sucks. Nor am I defending Anon's arguements, nor TCPA, nor Palladium. I'm only taking exception at your silly and impossible to prove request that Anonymous decloak. > If deep paranoia cryptoanarchy freaks can be made to endorse TCPA/Pd crap > that's sufficient motivation for a troll. Not to detract from my own arguement, but to entertain you a bit further, style can be forged. There are even "Best of Bad Hemmingway" contests and books for example. Style means nothing. It's as easy to copy as posting mp3's on a p2p network. Collusions happen, conspiracies happen. Hey, I've got a suspicious feeling that George Bush is Maxwell Smart, since they look alike. Or alternatively the chimp in Bedtime for Bonzo... But you don't see me emailing george at whitehouse.gov and asking if their Cone of Silence is out of order, or if he would like some bannanas. And might I presume to ask, who are you referring to when you say "deep paranoia cryptoanarchy freaks?" After all, if that anon (or groups of anons) that you have a gripe with happen to work for MSFT, I would hardly label it/them as cryptoanarchy freaks. More like greedy evil pro-microsoft buttmonkies. If you're referring to others such as me and yourself, who despise Palladium, TCPA, and Microsoft, calling us paranoid cryptoanarchic freaks isn't going to get you any free rounds of beers at the next meet... except maybe poured on your head... Look, if you want to keep it a useful and interesting conversation, by all means refrain from conjecture and ad homeneims. If you want to don the tin foil hat, be my guest... procmail filters are standing by... act now, don't delay, into the spam folder you shall go. ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :NSA got $20Bill/year|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :and didn't stop 9-11|share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:Instead of rewarding|monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :their failures, we |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :should get refunds! |site, and you must change them very often. --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ From remailer at aarg.net Wed Aug 7 12:35:12 2002 From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 12:35:12 -0700 Subject: Palladium: technical limits and implications Message-ID: <51678c581368e18c35beca5d8665c528@aarg.net> Adam Back writes: > I have one gap in the picture: > > In a previous message in this Peter Biddle said: > > > In Palladium, SW can actually know that it is running on a given > > platform and not being lied to by software. [...] (Pd can always be > > lied to by HW - we move the problem to HW, but we can't make it go > > away completely). Obviously no application can reliably know anything if the OS is hostile. Any application can be meddled with arbitrarily by the OS. In fact every bit of the app can be changed so that it does something entirely different. So in this sense it is meaningless to speak of an app that can't be lied to by the OS. What Palladium can do, though, is arrange that the app can't get at previously sealed data if the OS has meddled with it. The sealing is done by hardware based on the app's hash. So if the OS has changed the app per the above, it won't be able to get at old sealed data. And of course remote attestation will not work either, if the app has been meddled with. This means that an app can start running, attest to its "clean" status to a remote server, download some data from that server, and seal it. Then at a later time, IF the app is able to unseal that data, then it is true that the app has not been meddled with and is not running on virtualized hardware. That is how I understand these sorts of claims. From remailer at aarg.net Wed Aug 7 12:50:29 2002 From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 12:50:29 -0700 Subject: Challenge to TCPA/Palladium detractors Message-ID: I'd like the Palladium/TCPA critics to offer an alternative proposal for achieving the following technical goal: Allow computers separated on the internet to cooperate and share data and computations such that no one can get access to the data outside the limitations and rules imposed by the applications. In other words, allow a distributed network application to create a "closed world" where it has control over the data and no one can get the application to "cheat". IMO this is clearly the real goal of TCPA and Palladium, in technical terms, when stripped of all the emotional rhetoric. As I posted previously, this concept works especially well for open source applications. You could even have each participant compile the program himself, but still each app can recognize the others on the network and cooperate with them. And this way all the participants can know that the applications aren't doing anything different than what they claim. This would be a very powerful capability with many uses that you might find both good and bad. I posted a long message earlier with three examples of privacy-oriented applications: secure game playing, anonymous P2P networking, and untraceable digital cash. In addition it can be used for DRM, restricting access to sensitive business or government data, and similar applications. For those of you who claim that such a technology is not necessarily objectionable in itself, but that the implementations in TCPA and Palladium are flawed, please explain how you could do it better. How can you maximize user control and privacy and minimize the potential for government or corporate takeovers? In other words, what *exactly* is wrong with the way that TCPA and Palladium choose to do things? Can you fix those problems and still achieve the basic goal, above? From adam at homeport.org Wed Aug 7 09:50:31 2002 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 12:50:31 -0400 Subject: Privacy-enhancing uses for TCPA In-Reply-To: ; from peternbiddle@hotmail.com on Tue, Aug 06, 2002 at 07:08:25PM -0700 References: <20020806191139.GQ23240@zork.net> Message-ID: <20020807125030.A7722@lightship.internal.homeport.org> On Tue, Aug 06, 2002 at 07:08:25PM -0700, Peter N. Biddle wrote: | Neither of us really had the time to clearly articulate things last time, so | I am glad you brought it up. My perspective is primarily from an | architectural one, and it boils down to this: | | Platform security shouldn't choose favorites. I think most of us will agree to that. But you are choosing favorites: You're asserting certain ideas about society and how it ought be structured, and asserting that a system should do certain things. Some de-contextualized quotes are below. | enforce policy judgement on arbitrary data would be impossible to manage. It | would vary from country to country, and most importantly (from my Why do countries get to impose their laws on my data? Which countries get to do so? And are you still in France? ;) | Not only should the platform be able to exert the highest degrees of control | over this information on behalf of a user, it should also allow the user to | make smart choices about who gets the info and what the policy is around the | usage of this info remotely. This must be in a context where lying is both | extremely difficult and onerous. Why? Lying is a really good way to protect your privacy. | Common sense dictates that the unlawful usage of some kinds of data is far | more damaging (to society, individuals, groups, companies) than other kinds | of data, and that some kinds of unlawful uses are worse than others, but | common sense is not something that can be exercised by a computer program. | This will need to be figured out by society and then the policy can be | exerted accordingly. Again, we disagree. | I am not sure I understand the dichotomy; technical enforcement of user | defined policies around access to, and usage of, their local data would seem | to be the right place to start in securing privacy. (Some annoying cliche | about cleaning your own room first is nipping at the dark recesses of my | brain ; I can't seem to place it.) When you have control over privacy | sensitive information on your own machine you should be able to use similiar | mechanisms to achieve similiar protections on other machines which are | capable of exerting the same policy. You should also have an infrastructure | which makes that policy portable and renewable. This doesn't work, since, as Ross Anderson points out, the knowledge that you're HIV positive is owned by lots of different people at different times, and once one of them reads it on screen, they can reproduce it, irrevocably, outside the policy which you've tried to impose. So, you've made some choices about how the system can be used; you've chosen ways to protect privacy which reflect your view of how privacy should be protected. Similarly copyright. Thats your right, however, I, and many others are deeply concerned that those choices are going to get embedded and imposed on the rest of us. Hey, you know what? They may even be good choices. But I don't care. Fundamentally, they restrict my freedom to do dumb things, to be unreasonable, to dissent. And that worries the hell out of me. Adam -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From sunder at sunder.net Wed Aug 7 10:15:39 2002 From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 13:15:39 -0400 (edt) Subject: anonymous text analysis - will the real anon shady please stand up? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Then, please, ferret out Mr. Anonymous and decloak him yourself. It would make for an interesting project in the least. After you've succeded, then you can dig up his connection to MSFT. Cypherpunks write code, yes? ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :NSA got $20Bill/year|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :and didn't stop 9-11|share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:Instead of rewarding|monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :their failures, we |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :should get refunds! |site, and you must change them very often. --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ On Wed, 7 Aug 2002, Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Wed, 7 Aug 2002, Sunder wrote: > > > Not to detract from my own arguement, but to entertain you a bit > > further, style can be forged. There are even "Best of Bad Hemmingway" > > contests and books for example. Style means nothing. It's as easy to > > copy as posting mp3's on a p2p network. > > You're of course aware that even shallow textual analysis of list archives > allows good fingerprinting of even casual posters. Even if we all would > post anonymously you could still build reliable clusters. It is impossible > to scramble that signature as long as your posts are nontrivial in length > by pretending to be somebody else. > > I'm not aware of a fully automated tool to reliably scramble that > fingerprint. (Pointers welcome). Doing it semimanually is prohibitively > expensive in a forum such as this. From greenplace at msm.net Wed Aug 7 12:08:54 2002 From: greenplace at msm.net (greenplace at msm.net) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 14:08:54 -0500 Subject: Low Cost Long Distance Message-ID: <200208071908.g77J8lc21150@sirius.enap.edu.co> New Page 1   LOW  COST  =LONG   DISTANCE =     Six Plans To Choose From Including: $9.95 Plan  * Unlimited Plan  * Travel Plan Canadian Plans *  International   *  Intra/Inter State Stop paying the high cost of long distance.   Simple to understand all-inclusive pricing so you save big! Email us now with your phone number to hear how crystal clear your connection will be. To be removed please click here             -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3135 bytes Desc: not available URL: From eresrch at eskimo.com Wed Aug 7 14:18:47 2002 From: eresrch at eskimo.com (Mike Rosing) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 14:18:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Challenge to TCPA/Palladium detractors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Aug 2002, AARG! Anonymous wrote: > I'd like the Palladium/TCPA critics to offer an alternative proposal > for achieving the following technical goal: > > Allow computers separated on the internet to cooperate and share data > and computations such that no one can get access to the data outside > the limitations and rules imposed by the applications. > > In other words, allow a distributed network application to create a > "closed world" where it has control over the data and no one can get > the application to "cheat". IMO this is clearly the real goal of TCPA > and Palladium, in technical terms, when stripped of all the emotional > rhetoric. Yes, this is a major research project in many universities. Nobody has a complete solution for the general case but some solutions for specific cases. IBM and Certicom both have hardware computation platforms that allow a single company to verify its stuff is secure on remote platforms, but the remote platform is under the control of the company, it's not a generic PC that any consumer owns. Personally I think it's impossible. Once the data is in the clear in some form it can be copied to some other form. You can't stop someone from cheating if you want them to get access to data. > For those of you who claim that such a technology is not necessarily > objectionable in itself, but that the implementations in TCPA and > Palladium are flawed, please explain how you could do it better. How can > you maximize user control and privacy and minimize the potential for > government or corporate takeovers? > > In other words, what *exactly* is wrong with the way that TCPA and > Palladium choose to do things? Can you fix those problems and still > achieve the basic goal, above? No, it's not possible to ship data around and let anyone see it *and* prevent it from being copied. What you can do is create specific environments for specific applications, and there are already solutions available for those purposes. The problem with TCPA and Palladium is attempting to make it generic. If one person controls all computers, then the specific solution becomes possible. But it just happens that most of us don't like the idea of one person controling all computers. Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike From lynn.wheeler at firstdata.com Wed Aug 7 12:33:23 2002 From: lynn.wheeler at firstdata.com (lynn.wheeler at firstdata.com) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 14:33:23 -0500 Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA Message-ID: it is relative common for authentication hardware tokens with asymmetric crypto to never divulge the private key .... there is big issue then whether 1) the key pair is actually generated on the chip (and never divulged) or 2) the keys are generated externally and injected into the chip (with special compensating procedures that the chip never leaks the private key ... and there is no record kept by the generation/injection process). specifications for asymmetric cryptography for data encryption may include key escrow of the private key (allowing business continuity for data that has been encrypted with the public key). lucky green If I buy a lock I expect that by demonstrating ownership I > can get a replacement key or have a locksmith legally open it. It appears the days when this was true are waning. At least in the PC platform domain. --Lucky --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From bill.stewart at pobox.com Wed Aug 7 14:33:34 2002 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 14:33:34 -0700 Subject: ANNOUNCE SF Cypherpunks, Sat Aug 10, Berkeley, Jupiter Brewery Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20020807142400.04acfcc0@idiom.com> August 2002 Physical Meeting Announcement General Info: DATE: Saturday 10 August 2002 TIME: 1:00 - 6:00 PM (Pacific Time) PLACE: Jupiter Brewing, 2181 Shattuck, Berkeley Agenda "Our agenda is a widely-held secret." The organized program begins about 1:00. Some expected people and discussion topics: - GNU Radio - TCPA (though Lucky will probably give his DEFCON talk another time) - John Gilmore's recent work on FAA Airport Thuggery - Things that happened at Usenix Security and Defcon. After the meeting, there is usually dinner somewhere nearby. Jupiter is a brewery, with pizza and sandwiches and their own beer and other brewers' beer. As usual, this is an open meeting on US Soil, and everyone's invited, including some suspiciously foreign Canadians and Brits (expected) and Florida's Secretary of State (not expected). However, it's possible there will be Stupid Government Tricks restricting people under 21, because of the presence of ethanol. There's a Party at Ian's Place the night before, and the Usenix Security Symposium is in SF this week. Location Jupiter 2181 Shattuck, Berkeley Jupiter opens at High Noon. We will be in the heated outdoor beer garden, weather permitting, or conspicuously inside. And unlike the last time we were here, it's unlikely to be freezing outside. Directions: Map: http://www.jupiterbeer.com/berkeley/directions/ BART: Take BART to Berkeley station; Jupiter is across the street. Driving: Take 80 to University Avenue. Turn right on Shattuck. Go about 3 blocks. Lat/Long: 37.869765 N 122.268175 W If you get lost on the way, you can try calling: +1.415.307.7119 (Bill) From freebies4u at tom.com.hk Wed Aug 7 11:42:53 2002 From: freebies4u at tom.com.hk (freebies4u at tom.com.hk) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 14:42:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Earn Unlimited Income Working At Home! Message-ID: <200208071842.g77IgqJ95122@locust.minder.net> MAKE MILLIONS ON THE NET IN UNDER 6 MONTHS -CDIC AS SEEN ON TV!!! READ THIS E-MAIL TO THE END! - Follow what it says to the letter - and you will not worry whether a RECESSION is coming or not, who is President, or whether you keep your current job or not. Yes, I know what you are thinking. I never responded to one of these before either. 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Life is beautiful, Thanx to internet''.   Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand =========================================   ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM !   ========================================= If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C.     This message is sent in compliance of the proposed bill SECTION 301, paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618.     * This message is not intended for residents in the State of Washington, Virginia or California, screening of addresses has been done to the best of our technical ability.   * This is a one-time mailing and this list will never be used again.     * To be removed from this list, please send an email with the word REMOVE in the subject line to freebie4u at sinatown.com   From events at thesoleilgroup.com Wed Aug 7 12:18:52 2002 From: events at thesoleilgroup.com (Soleil) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 15:18:52 -0400 Subject: TOMORROW -- Password: Soleil -- TV Casting Message-ID: <200208071923.OAA22430@lml100.siteprotect.com> Tomorrow will be huge. Password: Soleil has become the premiere Thursday night in New York - with a chill after-work and a blazing late-night. This Thursday, producers from Columbia Tristar are casting people for their new reality TV show. We invite all members of the media and entertainment industries for an exclusive event celebrating New York high-life. Password: SOLEIL Thursdays @Nativa 5 East 19th Street b/w B'way & 5th Ave. New York, NY "SOLEIL" REQUIRED FOR ENTRY You must say 'Soleil' at the door. $5 before 10pm 6-8pm Happy Hour Free dinner buffet. 1/2 price drinks. party 'til 4am Music: Hip-Hop, Reggae, Latin Soul, R&B RSVP Recommended: 212.591.1253 password at thesoleilgroup.com ---------------- To be removed from this list, email: remove at thesoleilgroup.com with the word "remove" in the subject heading. ---------------- From events at thesoleilgroup.com Wed Aug 7 12:18:53 2002 From: events at thesoleilgroup.com (Soleil) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 15:18:53 -0400 Subject: TOMORROW -- Password: Soleil -- TV Casting Message-ID: <200208071923.OAA22402@lml100.siteprotect.com> Tomorrow will be huge. Password: Soleil has become the premiere Thursday night in New York - with a chill after-work and a blazing late-night. This Thursday, producers from Columbia Tristar are casting people for their new reality TV show. We invite all members of the media and entertainment industries for an exclusive event celebrating New York high-life. Password: SOLEIL Thursdays @Nativa 5 East 19th Street b/w B'way & 5th Ave. New York, NY "SOLEIL" REQUIRED FOR ENTRY You must say 'Soleil' at the door. $5 before 10pm 6-8pm Happy Hour Free dinner buffet. 1/2 price drinks. party 'til 4am Music: Hip-Hop, Reggae, Latin Soul, R&B RSVP Recommended: 212.591.1253 password at thesoleilgroup.com ---------------- To be removed from this list, email: remove at thesoleilgroup.com with the word "remove" in the subject heading. ---------------- From crawdad at fnal.gov Wed Aug 7 14:13:36 2002 From: crawdad at fnal.gov (Matt Crawford) Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 16:13:36 -0500 Subject: Challenge to TCPA/Palladium detractors In-Reply-To: "07 Aug 2002 12:50:29 PDT." Message-ID: <200208072113.g77LDaC17060@gungnir.fnal.gov> > I'd like the Palladium/TCPA critics to offer an alternative proposal > for achieving the following technical goal: > Allow computers separated on the internet to cooperate and share data > and computations such that no one can get access to the data outside > the limitations and rules imposed by the applications. > [...] > You could even have each participant compile the program himself, > but still each app can recognize the others on the network and > cooperate with them. Unless the application author can predict the exact output of the compilers, he can't issue a signature on the object code. The compilers then have to be inside the trusted base, checking a signature on the source code and reflecting it somehow through a signature they create for the object code. --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From jsd at monmouth.com Wed Aug 7 13:43:15 2002 From: jsd at monmouth.com (John S. Denker) Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 16:43:15 -0400 Subject: Challenge to TCPA/Palladium detractors References: Message-ID: <3D518663.B34405A5@monmouth.com> "AARG!Anonymous" wrote: > > I'd like the Palladium/TCPA critics to offer an alternative proposal > for achieving the following technical goal: > > Allow computers separated on the internet to cooperate and share data > and computations such that no one can get access to the data outside > the limitations and rules imposed by the applications. That is frightfully underspecified. Creating such a system could be very easy or very hard, depending on what range of policies is to be supported, and depending on what your threat model is. At one extreme I might trust an off-the-shelf PC if it were booted from CD by trusted parties in a TEMPEST-shielded room surrounded by armed guards. At the other extreme, making tamper-proof hardware to face unlimited threats is very, very hard -- most likely outside the "PC" price range for the foreseeable future. > In other words, allow a distributed network application to create a > "closed world" where it has control over the data and no one can get > the application to "cheat". IMO this is clearly the real goal of TCPA > and Palladium, in technical terms, when stripped of all the emotional > rhetoric. Well, the "technical terms" are not and should not be the sole focus of the current discussion. There are other questions such as -- what range of policies should be supported -- who gets to set the policy -- who decides who trusts whom -- etc. etc. etc. I agree that there has been too much ad-hominem sewage and emotional rhetoric mixed in with the valid arguments recently. From remailer at aarg.net Wed Aug 7 16:55:11 2002 From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 16:55:11 -0700 Subject: Palladium: hardware layering model Message-ID: <1c9905949ee6ae242d2b3fd69f09eb24@aarg.net> Adam Back writes: > some definitions: > > hw layer -- SCP which I think provides crypto key store, crypto > co-processor for sealing, remote attesation > > ring 0 -- new layer which controls memory management unit and secured > code compartments > > supervisor mode -- normal supervisor mode, which can now only read > user space, but not trusted agents running in code compartments > > user mode -- legacy user level apps under complete control of > supervisor mode > > and some ASCII art: > > +---------------+------------+ > | trusted-agent | user mode | > | space | app space | > | (code +------------+ > | compartment) | supervisor | > | | mode | > +---------------+------------+ > | ring-0 / Memory mgmt unit | > +----------------------------+ > | hardware / SCP key manager | > +----------------------------+ > > each layer below can decide policy and information disclosure through > APIs to the layer above. I don't think this is right, as Peter said that the Palladium stuff could load many days after boot. So I don't think the "ring-0" mode underlies normal supervisor mode as you have shown it. Instead I think they are relatively orthogonal. I'm not sure how to draw it, but I would envision the TOR as a device driver which controls two devices: the trusted execution space, which is some special memory (on the cpu?), and the SCP, the crypto processor. Let us suppose that there is a special instruction to load a block of code into the trusted execution space and give it a new process ID. At the same time this causes the SCP to hash it so that it can attest to it later. Let us also suppose that the ring-0 mode is used only when running code out of the trusted execution space (TE space). What is special about ring-0? Two things: first, it can see the code in the TE space so that it can execute it. And second, it doesn't trap into supervisor mode for things like debugger single-stepping. I'm not familiar with the details of the Pentium family but on most CPUs the debugger single-steps things by setting a flag and returning into the code. The code executes one instruction and then automatically traps into supervisor mode, which hands off to the debugger. This process must be suppressed in ring-0 mode, and likewise for any other features which can force a ring-0 process to trap involuntarily into supervisor mode, which exposes the registers and such. The TOR would then manage the various processes running in the TE space, and their interactions with ordinary code, and possibly the interactions of both with the SCP. I'm not sure if the TOR runs in ring-0 mode and in the TE space; probably it does, as the SCP can attest to it, and we wouldn't want non-Palladium processes to debug it. So really the whole TOR/SCP/TE-space/trusted-agents stuff is relatively orthogonal to the rest of windows. It's almost like you had a fully functional 2nd CPU in there that you could load code into and have it run; that CPU's memory is the TE space, its mode is the ring-0, it has access to the SCP, and it runs the TOR and trusted agents. But Palladium has to use the regular CPU for this so they firewall it off with the ring-0 mode which locks it into this restrictive mode. That's just a guess, probably wrong in many details, but consistent with what I understand so far. Mostly I am hoping to encourage Peter to come forward and correct our misconceptions. > The implications of which are: > > - the SCP can implement sealing with data separation against ring-0 > (ring-0 can't bypass sealing data separation) I have this as well; loading a user agent into TE space creates the hash "fingerprint" which will be used for sealing and attestation; other ring-0 agents will have their own fingerprints and won't be able to unseal what this agent does. The SCP compares fingerprints at unseal time to what it was at seal time and (optionally) won't unseal if they don't match. (This is one of multiple sealing options.) > - ring-0 can read all superviser, user, and trusted agent space, but I don't think so; not necessary in my model, would require significant re-architecting of Windows which won't happen, and inconsistent with the claim that Palladium can load days after boot. > - ring-0 and MMU can compartmentalize trusted agents so they can't > tamper with each other, and Must be true. Some questions: how big is the TE space? How many agents can live there at once? Do they swap in/out? Does data go there, or just code? > - ring-0 and MMU can exclude supervisor mode from trusted agent space > and ring-0 space; supervisor mode is itself just another > compartmentalized trusted-agent level space. Therefore ring-0 can > restrict what supervisor mode (where the normal OS is located) can do. But ring-0 cannot make arbitrary restrictions on sup. mode. Remember they can't afford to re-architect either the entire CPU nor the entire OS for this. The simplest is that in ring-0 mode you disable certain functions that could trap you into supervisor mode thereby losing control of the CPU, and this ring-0 mode gains you access to the TE space. > whereas the normal protected CPU architecture is just: > > +------------+ > | user mode | > | app space | > +------------+ > | supervisor | > | mode | > +------------+ I'm not much of artist but I would put the new stuff off to the side of this in its own tower. Ring-0 mode at the bottom, running the TOR which is shown above it, which manages the user agents which would be on top. The SCP is further off to the side, perhaps managed by the TOR. > - from these assumptions it appears an OS could be implemented so that > all OS calls pass through ring-0 APIs and mediation to get to > supervisor mode OS. In this case the OS could observe system calls > the trusted agent makes, but not in general read, debug, modify > virtualize or modify trusted-agent code. The non-virtualization > presumes encrypted trusted-agent code, which Peter said is not done, > so this can't be how it works. I'm not sure what you mean by the OS observing system calls. By definition, system calls go into the OS. So I don't think that will ever stop happening. But it does mean that when a ring-0 trusted agent makes a system call, we change to normal supervisor mode which makes the trusted space invisible. The point we are dancing around is this. How does it protect the data, along the whole path from the remote machine, through where it is processed locally, until it is sealed on the local disk? It seems that it must be in the clear for a while on the local machine. Where is that - in regular memory, or TE space? It's not that big a deal to be unable to read TE *code*. From what Peter says, that is typically not encrypted on the disk. So the code is no secret. What we must be unable to read are the data being handled by this code: the registers, the contents of memory that are sensitive. And by the registers I include the PC, since that would leak information about the data. We can't single-step it, we can't put breakpoints into it, we can't change it while it is running. > I would be interested to hear what model takes for Palladium mapping > the interactions and restrictions between Trusted Agents, user space, > OS kernel, TOR to the hardware. We need this kind of detail to reason > about limits of the Palladium and make distinctions between what is > possible with Palladium implementation choices vs what other types of > OSes could be built from the hardware features. I am curious about this from the technical perspective. I think this is one of the most interesting developments in many years on the security front. But frankly I don't think it will do them much good to tell you and most other cypherpunks about it, because whatever they say, you and others will twist it and lie if necessary a la Lucky to turn it into some horrible perversion. Even if the design were totally benign, that doesn't mean Microsoft/Intel couldn't change it someday, right? They could put a machine gun into every PC aimed at the user, and a camera over his head. That's the level of reasoning in Lucky's Defcon presentation, except that he says that they've already done it. I applaud Peter's patience but pity him for his naive belief that he is engaging in a good faith exchange where he will get a fair hearing. > One idea I think would be interest is as follows: > > - the TOR (which lives in ring-0) _could_ be used together with the OS > to force all trusted-agent in-flows and out-flows (network traffic) to > go through code under supervisor mode control. I think this is pretty likely, but with the data encrypted by the time the supervisor mode sees it. > I don't think this is likely in the current design; but this change > would be an improvement: > > - it would at least allow user audit and control of in-flows and > out-flows; If the data is in the clear, it would undermine the security guarantees! Look at my online poker game - if the dealer can tap into the data going out, he will learn what everyone else's hands are. Look at the anonymous network - an eavesdropper can learn where all the data is and how it is flowing. The data must not be made available in the clear anywhere the user can get at it, to provide the proper security. > - the user could block suspicious phone-home information out-flows, Well, he *does* know at least the address the data is going to. There's no way to hide that (short of anonymous message forwarding). > - the user could read out-flows and demand un-encrypted documented > formats, or if encrypted, encrypted with keys the supervisor mode gets > copies of. There are some applications which will still work if all the users can *see* all of the data, but just not modify it. Maybe my digital cash example would fall into that category. You can see how much you're spending, but you can't manipulate your wallet. But there are many others, such as those above, where being able to hide even information disclosure from network participants adds tremendous power. You remember the Eternity network, how one concept had files being shared across multiple nodes such that no one knew which files were on his own computer. That was crucially important for non-repudiation and censorship-resistance. This was done with cryptography, but the point is the same: hiding information from network participants can greatly increase security. With TCPA/Palladium you can get some of the same security properties with much simpler ode (with admittedly lower levels of security until hardware improves). Skipping down... > > And of course remote attestation will not work either, if the app > > has been meddled with. > > Remote attestation, which is not itself general -- just a remote > dongle thing -- if not tied to remote dongle controlled sealing which > is necessary for the main application function could be nopped out. I am assuming that you are attesting to the remote system, and you only can control your local one. You want to get something from the remote, and it will only give it if you are running "clean" on real hardware. So you can't virtualize and still attest, since ultimately you don't have a TPM endorsement key (or Palladium equivalent) with a nice TPME endorsement certificate issued on it. Of course if you have control of the server machine, you can ignore attestation. But that just says that the operator of the remote machine can choose for himself which apps to run. He can run an app that checks remote client integrity or he can run one which doesn't care. > So in the general case it seems that remote attestation is also > effectively virtualizable, modifiable and debuggable by first nopping > out remote attestation checks. (This is not strictly virtualizable as > the remote dongle call nopping modification makes it no longer the > same application, but as I said unless this is necessary for the > application it doesn't otherwise change it's behavior, so it's > effectively virtualizable). I'm not sure I follow this, but it sounds like you are talking about manipulating the server machine doing the checks, while in most cases you can only manipulate the client machine making the request. From adam at cypherspace.org Wed Aug 7 09:28:04 2002 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 17:28:04 +0100 Subject: (fwd) Re: more TCPA stuff (Re: "trust me" pseudonyms in TCPA)] Message-ID: <20020807172804.A594649@exeter.ac.uk> Another Peter Biddle reply to the TCPA/Palladium thread on cryptography. Adam ----- Forwarded message from "Peter N. Biddle" ----- From remailer at aarg.net Wed Aug 7 17:35:14 2002 From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 17:35:14 -0700 Subject: Palladiated Huber: "Software's Cash Register", Forbes, 10/18/93 Message-ID: <977c1e329f6fdb4677ffbe267aece81d@aarg.net> > A blast from the past for you Proto-Palladium fans. > > I remember reading this before I discovered the One True Cypherpunk > Religion the following summer and thinking, "yeah, that's cool". > Unfortunately, nowdays, for all my admiration for Dr. Huber, it just makes > me laugh out loud... I don't know why it should. Wave, the company profiled here, is said to be actively involved with both TCPA and Palladium. They're just a little behind schedule, is all. It's not like the Cypherpunk Revolution is progressing according to plan, either, is it? From jamesd at echeque.com Wed Aug 7 17:36:00 2002 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 17:36:00 -0700 Subject: On alliances and enemies. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3D515A80.26774.385CDF@localhost> -- Hollywood and the government, would like the internet to be like television, a few big businesses steadily churning out content, and everyone else passively consuming it. Microsoft really would not like that, since, despite all their faults, they are in the computer business. This is analogous to the difference between Hitler and Stalin. Hitler wanted to enslave the whole world right away, Stalin wanted to enslave the world bit by bit as the opportunity permitted, and whenever the time was ripe . Thus it made sense for the west to ally with Stalin. Trouble was, Stalin thought it made sense to ally with Hitler. My concern is not that Bill Gates is in bed with hollywood, but rather than Microsoft may be trying to compromise, may be trying to make a deal, over a matter where in truth no deal is possible, no compromise can work. Microsoft really does not want an internet that is regulated like TV. Hollywood really does. Analogously Stalin wanted most of Eastern Europe, and Hitler wanted all of Eastern Europe, and then some. Sooner or later, Microsoft has to come out on our side. Let us hope sooner, rather than later. Microsoft, like Hollywood, wants unreasonable and burdensome levels of intellectual property protection, but they do not want to destroy computing in order to get it. Hollywood, and to a lesser extent the government, would be happy to destroy unauthorized individual and small business computing and networking even if it did not help them sustain unreasonable and burdensome levels of intellectual property protection. This does not mean we should give Microsoft the benefit of the doubt on Palladium. It does mean we cannot automatically assume that Microsoft is completely in bed with Hollywood. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG pAtW9HDHsrtZztGUc46QOKEaFC3eHqZITeQJH+8P 2/FCNFYTqk89Jr/89vepeUPpC/XHNLdr3Vzuqvsa9 From eugen at leitl.org Wed Aug 7 08:46:41 2002 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 17:46:41 +0200 (CEST) Subject: dangers of TCPA/palladium - will the real anon shady please stand up? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Aug 2002, Sunder wrote: > "Waaa, he was vicious! He used a remailer!" Oh my! Well that's just proof > that he's working for Microsoft! (With a nudge, nudge, wink, wink, say no Are you being deliberately dense? The facts that he's using a remailer and has most uncypherpunk-like notions are alone insufficient to trip the suspicion circuit. But his insinuations are unusually good, and hence I'd like to know who he is. If deep paranoia cryptoanarchy freaks can be made to endorse TCPA/Pd crap that's sufficient motivation for a troll. > Besides, from what I've seen, those anon messages weren't signed. So I > can claim "I am that anonymous" and so can Vulis, Choate, Lucky, Tim, > Declan, RAH, yourself, your mom, the horse she rode on, the FedZ, the NSA > spook Satelite dancers (like the Rockettes, but they wear stego-panty > stockings and have barcodes on their foreheads sent by Lotus Notes so the > DIRNSA has a copy), and the Man Show Juggies. So what? The style is consistent, and he hasn't called a forgery yet. > Would the real "anon shady please stand up?" ROTFL! From rah at shipwright.com Wed Aug 7 15:37:51 2002 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 18:37:51 -0400 Subject: Palladiated? (was re: wow - palladiated! (Re: Palladium: technical limits and implications)) Message-ID: Evidently, I have permission to pass this along. :-). Don't try this at home, boys and girls. This is a professional neologist at work... Cheers, RAH Comedy is not pretty... --- begin forwarded text From t.c.jones at att.net Wed Aug 7 11:51:46 2002 From: t.c.jones at att.net (t.c.jones at att.net) Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 18:51:46 +0000 Subject: Palladium: technical limits and implications (Re: more TCPA stuff (Re: "trust me" pseudonyms in TCPA)) Message-ID: <20020807185147.VXXK11089.mtiwmhc22.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> It's a question of trust. The trust of the content owner in this case. If the content owner is to trust the h/w (which has been called a varient of a media player elsewhere on this list) then it will require a signature from a trusted third party. As has been noted before in the smart card case, trusted third parties need to know that the private key, for which they issue a cert, is well protected. I believe we all agree that the best place to protect a private key is h/w. If you want a cert from a 3rd party with that level of asertion, then YOU need to prove that YOU have provide that level of protection. Both smart cards (see FINREAD specs.) and similar h/w can provide this level of protection. (Pls note that I did not claim that all do, only that they can do it if they chose.) hth ..tom > I have one gap in the picture: > > In a previous message in this Peter Biddle said: > > > In Palladium, SW can actually know that it is running on a given > > platform and not being lied to by software. [...] (Pd can always be > > lied to by HW - we move the problem to HW, but we can't make it go > > away completely). > > But what feature of Palladium stops someone taking a Palladium enabled > application and running it in a virtualized environment. ie They > write software to emulate the SCP, sealing and attestation APIs. > > Any API calls in the code to verify non-virtualization can be broken > by putting a different endoresment root CA public key in the > virtualized SCP. > > The Palladium application (without the remote attestation feature) has > no way to determine that it is not virtualized. If the Palladium > application contains the endoresement root CA key that can be changed. > If the application relies on the SCP to contain the endoresmenet key > but doesn't verify it that can be virtualized with a replacement fake > endoresment root CA public key using the existing SCP APIs. > > Then Palladiumized application could be debugged and it's features > used without the Palladium non-virtualization guarantee. > > Am I free to do this as the owner of palladium compatible hardware > running a version of windows with the proposed palladium feature set? > > If so how does this reconcile with your earlier statement that: > > > In Palladium, SW can actually know that it is running on a given > > platform and not being lied to by software > > > Then we also have the remote attestation feature which can't be so > fooled, but for local attestation does the above break work, or is > there some other function preventing that? > > Does that imply that the BORA protections only apply to: > > - applications which call home to use remote attestation before > functioning > > - and even here the remote attestation has to be enforced to data > separation levels -- ie it has to be that the server provides a > required and central part of the application -- like providing the > content, or keys to the content -- otherwise the remote > attestation call can also be nopped out with no ill-effect (much > as calls to dongles with no other effect than to check for > existance of a dongle could be nopped) > > - applications which are encrypted to a machine key which is buried in > the SCP and endorsed by the hardware manufacturer > > - however you said in your previous mail that this is not planned > > * now about my attempts to provide a concise, representative and > readily understandable summary of what the essence of palladium is: > > my previous attempt which you point out some flaws in: > > > Adam Back wrote: > > > Effectively I think the best succinct description of the platforms > > > motivation and function is that: > > > > > > "TCPA/Palladium is an extensible, general purpose programmable dongle > > > soldered to your mother board with centralised points belonging to > > > Microsoft/IBM/Intel/". > > > > The Pd SCP isn't extensible or programable. > > OK that is true. I presume you focussed on SCP because you took the > dongle to mean literally the SCP component alone. > > Let's me try to construct an improved succint Palladium motivation and > function description. We need to make clear the distinction that the > programmability comes from the hardware/firmware/software ensble > provided by: > > hardware: the SCP, new ring0 and code compartmentatlization > > (btw what are the Palladium terms for the new ring0 that the TOR runs > in, and what is the palladium term for the code compartment that > Trusted Agents run in -- I'd like to use consistent terminology) > > super-kernel: TOR operating in new ring0 > > software: palladium enabled applications using the features such as > software attestation, and sealing with control rooted in hardware and > the TOR > > > So would it be fair to characterize the negative aspects of Palladium > as follows: > > "Palladium provides an extensible, general purpose programmable > dongle-like functionality implemented by an ensemble of hardware and > software which provides functionality which can, and likely will be > used to expand centralised control points by OS vendors, Content > Distrbuters and Governments." > > So I think that statement though obviously less possitively spun than > Microsoft would like perhaps addresses your technical objections with > the previous characterization. > > btw I readily concede of course that Palladium platform offers the > security compartmentalization and software assurance aspects anonymous > and Peter Biddle have described; I am just mostly examining the > flip-side of the new boundary of applications buildable to data > separation standards of security with this platform. One could > perhaps construct a more balanced characterization covering both > positive features and negative risks, but I'll let Palladium > proponents work on the former. > > So to discuss your objections to the previous version of my attempted > Palladium characterization: > > - as you say the hardware platform does not itself provide control > points (I agree) > > - as you say, the TOR being publicly auditable does not itself provide > control points > > however the platform can, and surely you can admit the risk, and even > the likelihood that it will in fact be used to continue and further > the existing business strategies of software companies, the content > industry and governments. > > The dongle soldered to your motherboard can conspire with the CPU and > memory management unit to lock the user out of selected processes > running on their own machine. > > If you focus on the subset of buildable applications which operate in > the users interests you can call this a good thing. If you look at > the risks of buildable applications which can be used to act against > the users interests it can equally be a very dangerous thing. Also if > you look at historic business practices, legal trends, and the wishes > of the RIAA/MPAA there are risks that these bad practices and trends > will be futher accelerated, exarcerbated and more strongly enforced. > > I'd be interested to see you face and comment on these negative > aspects rather than keep your comments solely on beneficial user > functions, claim neutrality of low level features, and disclaim > negative aspects by claiming at a low level user choice. The low > level user choice may in the long run prove impractical or almost > impossible for novice users, or even advanced users without hardware > hacking tools, to technically exercise. (I elaborated on the > possiblities for robust format compatibility prevention, and related > possibilities a previous mail.) > > > I wouldn't say that it is "general purpose" either, but I am not > > sure what you mean by this. > > I mean it is programmable in the sense that software attestation, > certification and the endoresed new privileged ring0 code, together > with the hardware enforced code compartments allow the protections of > the firmware and hardware running in the SCP to be extended up to > complete applications -- the Trusted Agents running in code > compartments. > > That makes it general purpse because it is programmable. It could be > used to build many classes of application across a spectrum of good, > debatable and evil: > > - more flexibile and secure anonymity systems (clear user > self-interest as anonymous suggested) > > - DRM (mixed positive and negative, debatable depends on your point of > view) > > - and for example key-escrow of SCP support crypto functions > implemented in the TOR accessed with say CAPI (very negative) > > > > >From my current understanding, the worst problem is the centralised > > > control of this platform. If it were completely open, and possible to > > > fix it's potential dangers, it would bring about a new framework of > > > secured computing and could be a net positive. In it's current form > > > with centralised control and other problems it could be a big net > > > negative. > > > > There isn't centralized control in Pd. Users are in control. It is > > up to whomever cares about the trust on a given system to decide if > > they trust it, and this obviously must start with the user. > > You're focussing on the low level platform specifics, not on the > bigger implications of the overall hardware, TOR, OS and software > ensemble which I was talking about. Yes you can run different TORS. > But using a specific (and audited published) TOR which the user may > find himself choosing to run in order to run Palladium-enabled > applications, all the applications, file formats, services and content > which are tied to doing that -- control points could and likely will > be built. > > It is my opinion that the directions and business pressures are such > that meaningful distributed control is unlikely to be the long term > result of the things that will be built using the Palladium > hardware/software ensemble. > > This seems a fairly clearly consistent and predictable outcome, unless > the software, IP law, RIAA/DMCA and legal systems all make an > _astounding_ complete U-turn in policy and tacitcs coincident with the > deployment of Palladium. > > Can you defend the arguement that Palladium and TCPA don't change the > balance of control against the user and against personal control in > our current balance between technical feasibility of building software > systems enforcing third party control and law? > > (btw I'll stop nagging about documentation now, previous mail crossed > with your reply on the topic). > > Adam > -- > "You do not examine legislation in the light of the benefits it will > convey if properly administered, but in the light of the wrongs it > would do and the harms it would cause if improperly administered." > -- Lyndon Johnson > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > The Cryptography Mailing List > Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From adam at cypherspace.org Wed Aug 7 10:54:31 2002 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 18:54:31 +0100 Subject: Palladium: technical limits and implications (Re: more TCPA stuff (Re: "trust me" pseudonyms in TCPA)) In-Reply-To: ; from peternbiddle@hotmail.com on Tue, Aug 06, 2002 at 08:06:04PM -0700 References: <20020805064801.A532566@exeter.ac.uk> <20020805222628.A512885@exeter.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20020807185431.B594649@exeter.ac.uk> I have one gap in the picture: In a previous message in this Peter Biddle said: > In Palladium, SW can actually know that it is running on a given > platform and not being lied to by software. [...] (Pd can always be > lied to by HW - we move the problem to HW, but we can't make it go > away completely). But what feature of Palladium stops someone taking a Palladium enabled application and running it in a virtualized environment. ie They write software to emulate the SCP, sealing and attestation APIs. Any API calls in the code to verify non-virtualization can be broken by putting a different endoresment root CA public key in the virtualized SCP. The Palladium application (without the remote attestation feature) has no way to determine that it is not virtualized. If the Palladium application contains the endoresement root CA key that can be changed. If the application relies on the SCP to contain the endoresmenet key but doesn't verify it that can be virtualized with a replacement fake endoresment root CA public key using the existing SCP APIs. Then Palladiumized application could be debugged and it's features used without the Palladium non-virtualization guarantee. Am I free to do this as the owner of palladium compatible hardware running a version of windows with the proposed palladium feature set? If so how does this reconcile with your earlier statement that: > In Palladium, SW can actually know that it is running on a given > platform and not being lied to by software Then we also have the remote attestation feature which can't be so fooled, but for local attestation does the above break work, or is there some other function preventing that? Does that imply that the BORA protections only apply to: - applications which call home to use remote attestation before functioning - and even here the remote attestation has to be enforced to data separation levels -- ie it has to be that the server provides a required and central part of the application -- like providing the content, or keys to the content -- otherwise the remote attestation call can also be nopped out with no ill-effect (much as calls to dongles with no other effect than to check for existance of a dongle could be nopped) - applications which are encrypted to a machine key which is buried in the SCP and endorsed by the hardware manufacturer - however you said in your previous mail that this is not planned * now about my attempts to provide a concise, representative and readily understandable summary of what the essence of palladium is: my previous attempt which you point out some flaws in: > Adam Back wrote: > > Effectively I think the best succinct description of the platforms > > motivation and function is that: > > > > "TCPA/Palladium is an extensible, general purpose programmable dongle > > soldered to your mother board with centralised points belonging to > > Microsoft/IBM/Intel/". > > The Pd SCP isn't extensible or programable. OK that is true. I presume you focussed on SCP because you took the dongle to mean literally the SCP component alone. Let's me try to construct an improved succint Palladium motivation and function description. We need to make clear the distinction that the programmability comes from the hardware/firmware/software ensble provided by: hardware: the SCP, new ring0 and code compartmentatlization (btw what are the Palladium terms for the new ring0 that the TOR runs in, and what is the palladium term for the code compartment that Trusted Agents run in -- I'd like to use consistent terminology) super-kernel: TOR operating in new ring0 software: palladium enabled applications using the features such as software attestation, and sealing with control rooted in hardware and the TOR So would it be fair to characterize the negative aspects of Palladium as follows: "Palladium provides an extensible, general purpose programmable dongle-like functionality implemented by an ensemble of hardware and software which provides functionality which can, and likely will be used to expand centralised control points by OS vendors, Content Distrbuters and Governments." So I think that statement though obviously less possitively spun than Microsoft would like perhaps addresses your technical objections with the previous characterization. btw I readily concede of course that Palladium platform offers the security compartmentalization and software assurance aspects anonymous and Peter Biddle have described; I am just mostly examining the flip-side of the new boundary of applications buildable to data separation standards of security with this platform. One could perhaps construct a more balanced characterization covering both positive features and negative risks, but I'll let Palladium proponents work on the former. So to discuss your objections to the previous version of my attempted Palladium characterization: - as you say the hardware platform does not itself provide control points (I agree) - as you say, the TOR being publicly auditable does not itself provide control points however the platform can, and surely you can admit the risk, and even the likelihood that it will in fact be used to continue and further the existing business strategies of software companies, the content industry and governments. The dongle soldered to your motherboard can conspire with the CPU and memory management unit to lock the user out of selected processes running on their own machine. If you focus on the subset of buildable applications which operate in the users interests you can call this a good thing. If you look at the risks of buildable applications which can be used to act against the users interests it can equally be a very dangerous thing. Also if you look at historic business practices, legal trends, and the wishes of the RIAA/MPAA there are risks that these bad practices and trends will be futher accelerated, exarcerbated and more strongly enforced. I'd be interested to see you face and comment on these negative aspects rather than keep your comments solely on beneficial user functions, claim neutrality of low level features, and disclaim negative aspects by claiming at a low level user choice. The low level user choice may in the long run prove impractical or almost impossible for novice users, or even advanced users without hardware hacking tools, to technically exercise. (I elaborated on the possiblities for robust format compatibility prevention, and related possibilities a previous mail.) > I wouldn't say that it is "general purpose" either, but I am not > sure what you mean by this. I mean it is programmable in the sense that software attestation, certification and the endoresed new privileged ring0 code, together with the hardware enforced code compartments allow the protections of the firmware and hardware running in the SCP to be extended up to complete applications -- the Trusted Agents running in code compartments. That makes it general purpse because it is programmable. It could be used to build many classes of application across a spectrum of good, debatable and evil: - more flexibile and secure anonymity systems (clear user self-interest as anonymous suggested) - DRM (mixed positive and negative, debatable depends on your point of view) - and for example key-escrow of SCP support crypto functions implemented in the TOR accessed with say CAPI (very negative) > > >From my current understanding, the worst problem is the centralised > > control of this platform. If it were completely open, and possible to > > fix it's potential dangers, it would bring about a new framework of > > secured computing and could be a net positive. In it's current form > > with centralised control and other problems it could be a big net > > negative. > > There isn't centralized control in Pd. Users are in control. It is > up to whomever cares about the trust on a given system to decide if > they trust it, and this obviously must start with the user. You're focussing on the low level platform specifics, not on the bigger implications of the overall hardware, TOR, OS and software ensemble which I was talking about. Yes you can run different TORS. But using a specific (and audited published) TOR which the user may find himself choosing to run in order to run Palladium-enabled applications, all the applications, file formats, services and content which are tied to doing that -- control points could and likely will be built. It is my opinion that the directions and business pressures are such that meaningful distributed control is unlikely to be the long term result of the things that will be built using the Palladium hardware/software ensemble. This seems a fairly clearly consistent and predictable outcome, unless the software, IP law, RIAA/DMCA and legal systems all make an _astounding_ complete U-turn in policy and tacitcs coincident with the deployment of Palladium. Can you defend the arguement that Palladium and TCPA don't change the balance of control against the user and against personal control in our current balance between technical feasibility of building software systems enforcing third party control and law? (btw I'll stop nagging about documentation now, previous mail crossed with your reply on the topic). Adam -- "You do not examine legislation in the light of the benefits it will convey if properly administered, but in the light of the wrongs it would do and the harms it would cause if improperly administered." -- Lyndon Johnson --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From eresrch at eskimo.com Wed Aug 7 18:55:26 2002 From: eresrch at eskimo.com (Mike Rosing) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 18:55:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Palladiated? (was re: wow - palladiated! (Re: Palladium: technical limits and implications)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Aug 2002, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > Status: RO > Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 22:40:56 +0100 > From: Adam Back > To: "R. A. Hettinga" > Cc: Adam Back > Subject: wow - palladiated! (Re: Palladium: technical limits and implications) > User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.2i > > On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 03:08:08PM -0400, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > > At 6:54 PM +0100 on 8/7/02, Adam Back wrote: > > > Palladiumized > > > > Palladiated? > > > > ;-). > > that's pretty funny, rhymes with irradiated -- nice connotations of > radioactive material with radioactive half-lives spewing > life-hazardous neutron radiation ;-) > > Helps that palladium is in fact a heavy metal. Man, perhaps Pd even > _has_ a half-life on the decay path from plutonium down to lead or > something. That would be very funny. > > Adam > Yeah, well Pd has 46 protons and atomic numbers ranging from 91 to 124. Most are stable, but some have half lives in the micro to millisecond range, a few with hours to days and 1 with 6.5 million years. It's just before silver, so it's most likely to be found in nuclear reactors as a fission product. I'd have to dig some more to find its neutron cross section :-) Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike From rah at shipwright.com Wed Aug 7 16:12:16 2002 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 19:12:16 -0400 Subject: Palladiated Huber: "Software's Cash Register", Forbes, 10/18/93 Message-ID: A blast from the past for you Proto-Palladium fans. I remember reading this before I discovered the One True Cypherpunk Religion the following summer and thinking, "yeah, that's cool". Unfortunately, nowdays, for all my admiration for Dr. Huber, it just makes me laugh out loud... Cheers, RAH ------- http://www.phuber.com/huber/forbes/101893.html SOFTWARE'S CASH REGISTER by Peter Huber Forbes, October 18, 1993 at Pg. 314 Copyright 1993 by Peter Huber. ------- People still boast about making money the old-fashioned way, but the new way is faster. Henry Ford, Thomas Edison and Sam Walton moved people and things: factory workers, wire cable, salesclerks, soda. That meant heavy lifting, which is slow. Nowadays you get rich quick moving bits and bytes. A lot more people are going to get rich that way in the coming years, because the software industry has finally perfected a cash register. To understand how important this is, begin with the basics. To get rich selling widgets, you must move a lot of widgets. And wherever else you may move them, you must move them past a cash register. Unfortunately, things that are easy to meter at the checkout counter -- solid things like Doritos, say -- are comparatively hard to move. The easiest thing to move is information. But until now, information has been hard to meter. The entertainment business has already shown us what kind of wealth can be created out of a commodity as fluid as air if you can somehow get people to pay for it. Think of the television set as a retail outlet, and Bill Cosby as a merchant who can peddle JELL-O to 30 million people at the same time. Sure, the people who stuff gelatin into boxes and ship them to stores may prosper, too, but on nowhere near the same scale as Cosby, who can move his goods at the speed of light. Television created only a handful of Cosbys. Personal computers will create thousands. The 60 million or so PCs placed on U.S. desktops are where the next generation of superrich are setting up their cash registers. The retail outlets themselves -- the desktop computers -- aren't necessarily a source of wealth. Remember that the founders of such hardware producers as Apple Computer, Dell Computer, Tandon Corp., Wang Laboratories and Digital Equipment Corp. all appeared among The Forbes Four Hundred in years past, only to fall by the wayside. The key conceptual leaps -- that microprocessors can power PCs, PCs sell, and they sell by mail -- have already been made. The hardware end of the computer industry now depends largely on the silicon equivalent of toting buckets, lifting bales and coordinating armies of salaried gophers who swallow up much of an entrepreneur's revenue. Software is a different story. It's where the future money is. The program creators who sell through these desktop retail outlets don't need heavy lifting and lots of capital to get their businesses off the ground -- so they don't need to give their companies away to venture capitalists to pay for the launch. Thus it is that this year's Forbes Four Hundred includes at least a dozen software vendors, including three from Microsoft (Gates, Allen, Ballmer), two each from Quark (Gill and Ebrahimi) and WordPerfect (Ashton and Bastian), and one each from Novell (Noorda), Oracle (Ellison) and BMC (Moores). Most of these weren't on the list four years ago. To make a mint on software, just think. Think alone, if you can, or at worst with a tiny team of fellow nerds. Write a program that helps other people think better -- a spreadsheet, a database, an electronic checkbook. Run off a million copies on floppy disks, at a cost of a buck or two each. Then sell them at $195 plus tax. None of this is easy, of course, but that's not the point. If you do somehow pull it off, you do it pretty much on the back of your own sweat equity. It's like one of those 1950s ads for making money at home that you used to see in Popular Mechanics: Zero investment. Infinite profit. Instantly. Just add genius. That, in any event, is how it should work. If it doesn't quite yet, the reason lies in the shortcomings of the cash register. We're still no good at metering information in its pure form, so software must be contained on something clumsy like a floppy disk, just to accommodate the bookkeepers. That means getting shelf space at Egghead Discount Software or some other retailer before you can make millions from your musical spreadsheet program. And there is only so much shelf space. Software is as light as electrons, but to make a buck you still have to put it on a truck. Microsoft persuades hardware distributors like Dell to bundle its software into the hardware. But for every Bill Gates there are 10,000 programmers, photographers and cinematographers who never get a chance to present their wares to consumers at all. Many of those wares would sell -- more than a few would sell spectacularly -- if they could be placed smack in front of potential buyers, without the trucks or the shelves. People have been trying to eliminate this physical side of the software industry for years. The disciples of "shareware" have built up a cottage industry giving programs away over electronic bulletin boards. If you like what you get for free, you're invited to contribute $10 or so for a manual and upgrades. Shareware is a wonderful little economy, but the honor system works only for things that are cheap, and it's hard to get really rich on things that are cheap. Enter Peter Sprague, chairman of National Semiconductor, where he makes not too much money the old-fashioned way, and founder of a little company called Wave Systems Corp., where he hopes to help software creators make a ton of money the new way. Wave Systems has developed an information meter. And its product, or one like it, is going to redefine the software industry. Sprague's first basic insight is that we already have in hand ways to distribute software very, very cheaply. Compact disks, for example -- the enormously capacious optical platters that are fast becoming standard features on PCs. These disks are cheap to reproduce, and a handful of them can store every floppy (and the manuals, too) that you see on the shelves of your local Egghead Discount Software store. Internet, cable television or the airwaves can also distribute almost limitless amounts of software. Delivering software from the next Ridgely Evers (developer of Quickbooks for Intuit) to where people want to use it (on their computers) is as easy now as delivering The Three Stooges across cable TV. So, reasoned Sprague, why shouldn't software developers distribute their programs by putting them out on display where the software is most likely to be bought: on the personal computer itself. Throw it onto a compact disk anthology that will go into the box with the computer, or offer it continuously over networks or the airwaves. Sprague's second insight was that no developer will use the information superhighway that already exists until there are toll gates that allow him or her to collect something for the product. Sprague has the toll gate: an electronic meter that can track who's using what program, and can bill the user for it. It's a chip that can be built for less than $30 and installed in any computer. For now, Sprague may license it to computer manufacturers, but in time, I'd guess, he'll get all his revenue from software and database vendors. They stand to benefit the most. The Wave clip's first function is to unwrap software. Example: WordPerfect is broadcast across a wireless network in encrypted form. The Wave chip decodes. The other thing Sprague's chip does is establish credit, in much the same way as a Pitney Bowes postage machine or a French pay phone card. Through your computer modem the chip can call up your credit card company, and make sure that the right people get paid whenever you decide to buy. That will typically mean a big cut for the software vendor, perhaps a smaller cut for the company that manufactured the computer, and a still smaller cut for Wave. Pricing schemes of every imaginable kind can be supported. As I discussed in a recent column (FORBES, Sept. 27), selling software efficiently requires flexible, creative price structures. Sometimes you want to offer a dozen free test drives as a come-on. Sometimes -- with a brand-name program like WordPerfect, maybe -- you then want to charge a single, one-time, all-you-can-eat price. Sometimes -- as with electronic databases, perhaps -- you want to run a by-the-drink tab, so that people get charged only for articles retrieved and read, as a jukebox charges for records played. The cash register on a chip can handle it all. Cash registers and computers have always been kindred industries. Thomas J. Watson Sr. trained as a salesman at National Cash Register before turning IBM into the greatest selling organization around. Recently, AT&T paid a lot of money for NCR in order to expand its computer business. Now the PC is turning into a cash register once again, and it promises to boost many a software creator up the wealth ladder. -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From eresrch at eskimo.com Wed Aug 7 19:28:23 2002 From: eresrch at eskimo.com (Mike Rosing) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 19:28:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Palladium: hardware layering model In-Reply-To: <1c9905949ee6ae242d2b3fd69f09eb24@aarg.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Aug 2002, AARG! Anonymous wrote: > What is special about ring-0? Two things: first, it can see the code > in the TE space so that it can execute it. And second, it doesn't > trap into supervisor mode for things like debugger single-stepping. > I'm not familiar with the details of the Pentium family but on most CPUs > the debugger single-steps things by setting a flag and returning into > the code. The code executes one instruction and then automatically traps > into supervisor mode, which hands off to the debugger. This process must > be suppressed in ring-0 mode, and likewise for any other features which > can force a ring-0 process to trap involuntarily into supervisor mode, > which exposes the registers and such. If there's no way to debug the "hidden" (so called "trusted") code using standard techniques, then how can you know it works right? Most all processors now have hardware debugging capability - it is a requirement due to the complexity of the chips. *Somebody* has to be able to run a hardware debugger and have access to the raw hardware, even if it's just Intel running with the covers off. If I'm going to write a TOR, I want access to internal registers. So I'd expect there's a hardware interface to do that. This basicly breaks the whole thing. You can't have a generic platform *and* a trusted platform. You can have a trusted platform which is *specific* - nobody but the manufacturer knows the guts. If people want to buy it because it does something useful, that's ok, but don't call it a generic PC. As an aside, check out http://www.beastrider.com it's a hardware debugger for a DSP (which I built). The Intel processor may not work the same way, but it's got to have some kind of similar interface, and anybody like me can build an interface into it. If the processor is sealed into a tamper proof case (like the IBM 4875) Then it can be made secure for one manufacturer. The system is checked before being sealed. If people want to add one to their PC they are free to do so, but they understand who owns the key inside the sealed case. With TCPA people do not know who owns the key - and that's its basic problem. Until we know real hardware details, we're not really going to figure out what's going on. Since Palladium guys claim that TCPA doesn't do what they want, it seems that the hardware hasn't been figured out yet. If the processor isn't sealed to prevent people like me from building hardware debuggers, then Palladium will be cracked by someone. If it is sealed then it's not a generic PC anymore. I don't think it's possible to outlaw a generic pc, but I guess I'm not willing to let congress begin to think about it either :-\ Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike From eugen at leitl.org Wed Aug 7 10:35:14 2002 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 19:35:14 +0200 (CEST) Subject: dangers of TCPA/palladium - will the real anon shady please stand up? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Aug 2002, Sunder wrote: > Not to detract from my own arguement, but to entertain you a bit > further, style can be forged. There are even "Best of Bad Hemmingway" > contests and books for example. Style means nothing. It's as easy to > copy as posting mp3's on a p2p network. You're of course aware that even shallow textual analysis of list archives allows good fingerprinting of even casual posters. Even if we all would post anonymously you could still build reliable clusters. It is impossible to scramble that signature as long as your posts are nontrivial in length by pretending to be somebody else. I'm not aware of a fully automated tool to reliably scramble that fingerprint. (Pointers welcome). Doing it semimanually is prohibitively expensive in a forum such as this. From adam at cypherspace.org Wed Aug 7 13:38:55 2002 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 21:38:55 +0100 Subject: Palladium: hardware layering model (Re: Palladium: technical limits and implications) In-Reply-To: <51678c581368e18c35beca5d8665c528@aarg.net>; from remailer@aarg.net on Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 12:35:12PM -0700 References: <51678c581368e18c35beca5d8665c528@aarg.net> Message-ID: <20020807213855.A597654@exeter.ac.uk> some definitions: hw layer -- SCP which I think provides crypto key store, crypto co-processor for sealing, remote attesation ring 0 -- new layer which controls memory management unit and secured code compartments supervisor mode -- normal supervisor mode, which can now only read user space, but not trusted agents running in code compartments user mode -- legacy user level apps under complete control of supervisor mode and some ASCII art: +---------------+------------+ | trusted-agent | user mode | | space | app space | | (code +------------+ | compartment) | supervisor | | | mode | +---------------+------------+ | ring-0 / Memory mgmt unit | +----------------------------+ | hardware / SCP key manager | +----------------------------+ each layer below can decide policy and information disclosure through APIs to the layer above. The implications of which are: - the SCP can implement sealing with data separation against ring-0 (ring-0 can't bypass sealing data separation) - ring-0 can read all superviser, user, and trusted agent space, but - ring-0 and MMU can compartmentalize trusted agents so they can't tamper with each other, and - ring-0 and MMU can exclude supervisor mode from trusted agent space and ring-0 space; supervisor mode is itself just another compartmentalized trusted-agent level space. Therefore ring-0 can restrict what supervisor mode (where the normal OS is located) can do. whereas the normal protected CPU architecture is just: +------------+ | user mode | | app space | +------------+ | supervisor | | mode | +------------+ - from these assumptions it appears an OS could be implemented so that all OS calls pass through ring-0 APIs and mediation to get to supervisor mode OS. In this case the OS could observe system calls the trusted agent makes, but not in general read, debug, modify virtualize or modify trusted-agent code. The non-virtualization presumes encrypted trusted-agent code, which Peter said is not done, so this can't be how it works. I would be interested to hear what model takes for Palladium mapping the interactions and restrictions between Trusted Agents, user space, OS kernel, TOR to the hardware. We need this kind of detail to reason about limits of the Palladium and make distinctions between what is possible with Palladium implementation choices vs what other types of OSes could be built from the hardware features. One idea I think would be interest is as follows: - the TOR (which lives in ring-0) _could_ be used together with the OS to force all trusted-agent in-flows and out-flows (network traffic) to go through code under supervisor mode control. I don't think this is likely in the current design; but this change would be an improvement: - it would at least allow user audit and control of in-flows and out-flows; - the user could block suspicious phone-home information out-flows, - the user could read out-flows and demand un-encrypted documented formats, or if encrypted, encrypted with keys the supervisor mode gets copies of. - similarly in-flow control is interesting, because with no in-flows a trusted agent could be more liberally allowed to make out-flows (if it has no input knowledge, and is in a code compartment, and the user gave it no sensitive it doesn't know anything to leak.) (Even with encrypted code, or public code which could not otherwise be audited actively in the sense of debugging it's actual operation to see what it does in practice in your machine given your data and circumstances rather than looking at static code and third party certifications to try to deduce that. Not all apps may be unencrypted (a TOR and SCP could clearly be built to support this feature). So on anonymous comments about OS control: > Obviously no application can reliably know anything if the OS is > hostile. Any application can be meddled with arbitrarily by the OS. I'm not sure if anonymous is just generalising when he says the app can't in any circumstances know anything if the OS is hostile, but I think it could potentially know things if the OS is hostile. As I described with the control and layer I think the palladium hardware uses. It seems possible to build some of separations and exclude the OS from certain types of application. It depends what you include in the OS; if the OS includes the TOR, then no. But it was stated that the TOR is somewhat independent from the OS. You could mix and match and use an MS Palladium TOR with linux potentially (though perhaps not in practice, it would have to be designed to allow it). It also depends on how the OS, trusted agents and supervisor mode is mapped to the hardware. > What Palladium can do, though, is arrange that the app can't get at > previously sealed data if the OS has meddled with it. The sealing > is done by hardware based on the app's hash. So if the OS has changed > the app per the above, it won't be able to get at old sealed data. Peter seemed to claim these kinds of assurance. Sealing doesn't prevent application virtualization, it just prevents the sealed data being shared between non-virtualized instances of the apps and virtualized instances. So I was wondering how Peter could simultaneously claim that encryption was not used and that "SW can known that it is running on a given platform." > And of course remote attestation will not work either, if the app > has been meddled with. Remote attestation, which is not itself general -- just a remote dongle thing -- if not tied to remote dongle controlled sealing which is necessary for the main application function could be nopped out. So in the general case it seems that remote attestation is also effectively virtualizable, modifiable and debuggable by first nopping out remote attestation checks. (This is not strictly virtualizable as the remote dongle call nopping modification makes it no longer the same application, but as I said unless this is necessary for the application it doesn't otherwise change it's behavior, so it's effectively virtualizable). Adam From Pete.Chown at skygate.co.uk Wed Aug 7 14:07:25 2002 From: Pete.Chown at skygate.co.uk (Pete Chown) Date: 07 Aug 2002 22:07:25 +0100 Subject: Challenge to TCPA/Palladium detractors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1028754445.1812.78.camel@yeltsin.mthink> Anonymous wrote: > I'd like the Palladium/TCPA critics to offer an alternative proposal > for achieving the following technical goal: > > Allow computers separated on the internet to cooperate and share data > and computations such that no one can get access to the data outside > the limitations and rules imposed by the applications. On balance, I suspect I would say that this is not a desirable goal. I can see that it has its uses, but I think they are outweighed by the fact that I would no longer have complete control of my own computer. "Complete control" means being able to lie if I choose to. If it is coming anyway, I think the harm would be mitigated if two features were provided: Firstly, there should be no discrimination between operating systems. I want to be able to run a version of Linux (or any other operating system) that makes use of the hardware security features. If I built my own operating system, people might not trust it as much as operating systems that are better known. Fine, that's the way trust works. But I still want my operating system to be able to use the hardware. The signatures would be for "program foo running on PeteOS", so making clear to the relying party that the signature is only as good as my operating system's security. Secondly, there should be no discrimination between applications. I should be able to write a DRM system that works in the same way as any RIAA-approved one. Of course people may not trust my system, that's their choice. I'd be interested to know what the experts think -- will this functionality be available to me? -- Pete --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From adam at cypherspace.org Wed Aug 7 14:21:42 2002 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 22:21:42 +0100 Subject: Challenge to TCPA/Palladium detractors In-Reply-To: ; from remailer@aarg.net on Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 12:50:29PM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20020807222142.A596971@exeter.ac.uk> On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 12:50:29PM -0700, AARG!Anonymous wrote: > I'd like the Palladium/TCPA critics to offer an alternative proposal > for achieving the following technical goal: > > Allow computers separated on the internet to cooperate and share data > and computations such that no one can get access to the data outside > the limitations and rules imposed by the applications. The TCPA/Palladium folks have been working on this for apparently around 5 years. We don't yet have a complete definition of what Palladium is, but anyway... > Can you fix those problems and still achieve the basic goal, above? It may be that some interesting hardware, TOR and OS design changes could be added which could change the balance. Other aspects are as John Denker said more to do with who will control keys and policies and how much effective user control and choice remains over these policies. My initial thoughts were around hardware and TOR enforced in-flow and out-flow control to trusted agents. This idea was seeded by the smart-card setting of Stefan Brands digital credentials. (Read [1] if you are interested, it's a very clever idea, related to observers in cryptogaphic protocols in hardware settings). Briefly the observer in Brands protocol (and observers have been proposed in other cryptogaphic literature also) tackles an analogous problem with cryptographic assurance in the special purpose case of privacy preserving credentials, e-cash and other applications that can be built from those techniques. You have a tamper-resistant smart card. However the user can't reasonably audit the behavior of the smart-card processor because it intentionally hides it's keys from the user. Even if the source is published, audited, and claims and endoresments about the hardware made, the user still can't easily audit or reasonablly trust what is actually in his smart-card. The tamper-resistant smart card is somewhat related to the crypto functions of the SCP in Palladium or the TPM in TCPA, but the observer approach may offer lessons for TCPA/Palladium in general at higher levels. The tamper-resistant smart card is considered untrusted and hostile to user privacy. The tamper-resistant smart card processor and software is acting in the interests of the credential issuer / ecash issuer to prevent the user double-spending coins (*) / using credentials more times than allowed. The user has a general purpose computer running software he can completely audit, control observe running and modify. The smart-card has to make all communications with ecash acccepting merchants, certificate verifiers etc via the general purpose computer the smart-card is connected to. The general purpose computer implements the observer protocols. The smart-card setting variant of Brands protocol cryptographically assures 2 things: - the ecash issuer / credential CA can be assured that the user can not double spend (or in general violate other properties mediated by the tamper-resistant smart card) - the user is cryptographically assured that the smart-card can not invade his privacy. This works because the in-flows and out-flows to the smart card are hardware assured to pass via the general purpose computer, auditable, use published formats and are cryptographically blinded, to the extent of optimally frustrating even subliminal channels, via steganography and the like. In the same way that TCPA/Palladium are a generalisation of the dongle concept, this would be a generalisation of the cryptographic concept of observers. So for your convenience here's a cut and paste of that initial thought on applying the observer principle to general purpose TCPA/Palladium platform from the previous message with subject "Palladium: hardware layering model": I wrote in that message: | One idea I think would be interest is as follows: | | - the TOR (which lives in ring-0) _could_ be used together with the OS | to force all trusted-agent in-flows and out-flows (network traffic) to | go through code under supervisor mode control. | | I don't think this is likely in the current design; but this change | would be an improvement: | | - it would at least allow user audit and control of in-flows and | out-flows; | | - the user could block suspicious phone-home information out-flows, | | - the user could read out-flows and demand un-encrypted documented | formats, or if encrypted, encrypted with keys the supervisor mode gets | copies of. | | - similarly in-flow control is interesting, because with no in-flows a | trusted agent could be more liberally allowed to make out-flows (if it | has no input knowledge, and is in a code compartment, and the user | gave it no sensitive it doesn't know anything to leak.) this is not a fully fleshed out idea as I only thought of it yesterday, and can't fully analyse it's implications because we don't yet know proper details of what Palladium hardware is, nor how microsofts proposed Palladium enhanced windows would be implemented on that hardware. Adam (*) Actually he will still be caught and identified with Brands ecash protocols when the coins are deposited if he does double-spend coins after breaking hardware tamper-resistance, but that is a level of detailed not central to this discussion. [1] "A Technical Overview of Digital Credentials", Stefan Brands, Feb 2002, to appear in International Journal on Information Security. See Section 8. http://www.xs4all.nl/~brands/overview.pdf --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From adam at cypherspace.org Wed Aug 7 14:40:56 2002 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 22:40:56 +0100 Subject: wow - palladiated! (Re: Palladium: technical limits and implications) Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 03:08:08PM -0400, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > At 6:54 PM +0100 on 8/7/02, Adam Back wrote: > > Palladiumized > > Palladiated? > > ;-). that's pretty funny, rhymes with irradiated -- nice connotations of radioactive material with radioactive half-lives spewing life-hazardous neutron radiation ;-) Helps that palladium is in fact a heavy metal. Man, perhaps Pd even _has_ a half-life on the decay path from plutonium down to lead or something. That would be very funny. Adam --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From mv at cdc.gov Wed Aug 7 23:43:54 2002 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 23:43:54 -0700 Subject: commercial birds over Qatar, differential imagery in open press, Pgon not happy Message-ID: <3D52132A.519EB81B@cdc.gov> http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2002/020806-iraq1.htm Tim Brown of the defense think tank Globalsecurity.org which has published an extensive analysis of the latest satellite imagery on its web site, said the base "looks like it is being designed to replace the Prince Sultan Air Base in Saudi Arabia so we don't have to rely on the Saudis for this operation." 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Assistance from and for foundations and associations, guidance to prepare a business plan, market surveys, computers, and much more! Each directory is sold $ 49.95, to obtain a copy please call one of the following bookstores: American Publications: (866)322-3376 Business Resource Center: (250)381-4822, 8am-4pm pacific time. Fureteur bookstore: (450)465-5597, Fax: (450)465-8144 (credit card orders only). From cee4477632111 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 7 22:25:18 2002 From: cee4477632111 at yahoo.com (cee4477632111 at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 01:25:18 -0400 Subject: How about Earning a College Degree At Home? 632111000 Message-ID: <200208080237.KAA07417@bkkss.dyndns.org> Obtain a prosperous future, money earning power, and the admiration of all. Degrees from Prestigious Accredited Universities based on your present knowledge and life experience. CALL NOW to receive your diploma within days!!! 1 425 790 3463 No required tests, classes, books, or interviews. Bachelors, masters, MBA, and doctorate (PhD) diplomas available in the field of your choice. No one is turned down. Confidentiality assured. CALL NOW to receive your diploma within days!!! 1 425 790 3463 Call 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, including Sundays and holidays. 632111000 From adam at cypherspace.org Wed Aug 7 18:48:19 2002 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 02:48:19 +0100 Subject: Palladiated? (was re: wow - palladiated! (Re: Palladium: technical limits and implications)) In-Reply-To: ; from rah@shipwright.com on Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 06:37:51PM -0400 References: Message-ID: <20020808024819.A600037@exeter.ac.uk> [Trimmed Cc a bit, I'll let Bob decide where it goes beyond this]. Now that Bob coined the neologism "palladiated" (blame Bob -- my "palladiumized" was not in jest, just used in the middle of a tech discussion) it has to be done, so I asked the universal oracle (google.com) about palladium and half-life, and lo the Pd-103 isotope has a 17-day half-life, and Pd-109 of 13.5 hours and are classified as having moderate radiotoxicity. Unfortunately for Bob's neologism not quite up there with fission grade isotopes like like Plutonium which rate as very high toxicity, but still you wouldn't want to ingest to much of the stuff... Pd isotopes are obtained by bombarding Gold with neutrons apparently. http://www.stevequayle.com/Shop/Radiation/Radiotoxicity.appendix.html Anyway, now back to the intersting tech discussion on the balance of of owner vs third party control in the MS Palladium and TCPA platforms... Adam On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 06:37:51PM -0400, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > Evidently, I have permission to pass this along. :-). > > Don't try this at home, boys and girls. This is a professional neologist at > work... > > Cheers, > RAH > Comedy is not pretty... > > --- begin forwarded text > > Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 22:40:56 +0100 > From: Adam Back > To: "R. A. Hettinga" > Subject: wow - palladiated! (Re: Palladium: technical limits and implications) > > On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 03:08:08PM -0400, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > > At 6:54 PM +0100 on 8/7/02, Adam Back wrote: > > > Palladiumized > > > > Palladiated? > > > > ;-). > > that's pretty funny, rhymes with irradiated -- nice connotations of > radioactive material with radioactive half-lives spewing > life-hazardous neutron radiation ;-) > > Helps that palladium is in fact a heavy metal. Man, perhaps Pd even > _has_ a half-life on the decay path from plutonium down to lead or > something. That would be very funny. > > Adam From sm001171862 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 7 23:58:50 2002 From: sm001171862 at yahoo.com (sm001171862 at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 02:58:50 -0400 Subject: 1st Worldwide Automated Marketing System! - Take A FREE Tour!! Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 7423 bytes Desc: not available URL: From adam at cypherspace.org Wed Aug 7 22:34:15 2002 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 06:34:15 +0100 Subject: Palladium: hardware layering model In-Reply-To: <1c9905949ee6ae242d2b3fd69f09eb24@aarg.net>; from remailer@aarg.net on Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 04:55:11PM -0700 References: <1c9905949ee6ae242d2b3fd69f09eb24@aarg.net> Message-ID: <20020808063415.A590658@exeter.ac.uk> On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 04:55:11PM -0700, AARG!Anonymous wrote: > Adam Back wrote: > > +---------------+------------+ > > | trusted-agent | user mode | > > | space | app space | > > | (code +------------+ > > | compartment) | supervisor | > > | | mode | > > +---------------+------------+ > > | ring-0 / Memory mgmt unit | > > +----------------------------+ > > | hardware / SCP key manager | > > +----------------------------+ > > > > each layer below can decide policy and information disclosure through > > APIs to the layer above. > > I don't think this is right, as Peter said that the Palladium stuff could > load many days after boot. So I don't think the "ring-0" mode underlies > normal supervisor mode as you have shown it. Instead I think they are > relatively orthogonal. No I think the above diagram is closer than what you propose. Peter also pointed us at Seth Schoen's blog [1] which is a write up of a briefing Microsoft gave to EFF. It contains the statement: | The nub is a kind of trusted memory manager, which runs with more | privilege than an operating system kernel. The nub also manages access | to the SCP. Looks consistent with my picture to me. Your other objection: > I don't think this is right, as Peter said that the Palladium stuff could > load many days after boot. I think would just be covered by the details of how the machine switches from this picture: +------------+ | user mode | | app space | +------------+ | supervisor | | mode | +------------+ to the one above. For example imagine a default stub nub/TOR that leaves the new MMU features wide open. (Supervisor mode can access everything, no Trusted Agent code compartments running). The would be some API to allow the supervisor mode code to load a TOR and switch the TOR code to ring-0 while leaving the OS running in supervisor mode. Or alternatively and with equivalent effect: with the boot state, the OS runs in full ring-0 mode, but just isn't written to make use of any of the extra ring-0 features. When it switches to loading a nub/TOR the OS is relagated to supervisor mode, some MMU permission bits are juggled around and the TOR occupies ring-0, and the TOR is just an OS micro-kernel which happens to be written to use the new hardware features (code compartmentalization, new MMU features, sealing etc) Clarification on this: > > So in the general case it seems that remote attestation is also > > effectively virtualizable, modifiable and debuggable by first nopping > > out remote attestation checks. (This is not strictly virtualizable as > > the remote dongle call nopping modification makes it no longer the > > same application, but as I said unless this is necessary for the > > application it doesn't otherwise change it's behavior, so it's > > effectively virtualizable). > > I'm not sure I follow this, but it sounds like you are talking about > manipulating the server machine doing the checks, while in most cases > you can only manipulate the client machine making the request. Not what I meant. Say that you have some code that looks like this: /* some code */ if ( ! remote_attest( /* ... */ ) ) { exit 0; } /* lots more code */ then the remote attest is not doing anything apart from acting as a remote dongle, so all I have to do to virtualize this code, or break the licensing scheme based on the remote dongle is nop out the remote attest verification, then the code can be run as a user application rather than a trusted agent application and so can be run in a debugger, have it's state examined etc. If on the other hand the code says: download_sealed_content( /* ... */ ); key = remote_attest_and_key_negotiate( /* ... */ ); decrypt_sealed_content( key, /* ... */ ); then nopping out the remote_attest will have a deleterious effect on the applications function, and so virtualizing it with the remote attests nopped out will not be useful in bypassing it's policies. Adam -- http://www.cypherspace.org/adam/ From sunder at sunder.net Thu Aug 8 07:14:24 2002 From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 10:14:24 -0400 (edt) Subject: Challenge to TCPA/Palladium detractors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You can only do this if you can trust the hardware. As long as any potential untrustworthy folks have access to that hardware, it cannot be done. It is possible to do the rest of this if you manage to secure the machines from any other kinds of access by disabling all services other than that particular p2p (to prevent remote access overflows from insecure applications). If you see the network problem as a multi-ended VPN, that's the next part. But I do not see any way for any member of the network to certify that any other node is running exactly the same software, unless all nodes restrict access to the hardware and have an external certification process. If anyone anywhere can grab the software - binary or source and join the network while still having hardware access, all bets are off. The only thing the other nodes can certify is that the crypto signatures are right, and that the protocol is the same. But even if you sign the binaries, you don't know that the thing at the other end has the signature it just sent you. You can try to make things complex such as pushing binaries to the other node and having them run there, but you don't know if you're inside a VMware box, or Bochs emulator, or a real machine. Even if you can certify that the application does what you think it does, you can't ceritfy that the operating system or the hardware isn't going to do anything else. End of story. Can't be done so long as anyone other than you has root on the machine, or has physical access. Hence you need to buttplug the hardware and make it difficult to modify. Even so, you don't have any idea of if that CPU really is what it says it is, or that the hardware will do what you think it will do. Hardware can be replaced or patched with things that can look like the original, or things that at some opportune moment interrupt and switch out that hardware, then get full access to all the ram. No, I couldn't afford such hardware mods. But say someone that has enough money to own a DVD pressing factory certainly can afford the R&D. In the end TCPA/Palladium will be broken. Just the USG kept pushing single DES until even a bit after the DES cracker got built. I've no problem with that, nor the fact the RIAA/MPAA want to protect their warez - if they get that oppresive, I won't be buying it, and I'm positive that others won't either... In the end, they'll just be burning a lot of money and find out that they'll go broke. Ironic? Yup. As long as it's a free market, they'll fry for pissing off their consumers. I do have a problem with having spyware forced down my machines by John Law. Intel wants to put Pd compliant chips in their mobo's, fine, I won't buy their hardware -- or if I do, I'll be sure to reflash the BIOS to a slightly different enough version without signatures to force the Pd chip to shut down... If it won't let me, their loss. There's still AMD. AMD joins intel? Fuck x86, there's still Sun, and Apple. The only way that Pd will be successful is if every hardware manufacturer is forced by law to include it. And I've no problem with MSFT making their software oppresive, they're just digging their own graves, I'll applaud as they sink in to the bog. Fuck'em. They're extinct. Long as the motherboard will let me boot whatever OS I want, long as Kongress keeps their paws out of my machine and doesn't extract a tax to pay the losers for their "losses", MSFT, Intel, MPAA, RIAA can do whatever they want. And no, I don't believe that making an open source, hardware free version of what they're trying to do will prevent Jackoff Vallenti from pushing dollars to kongress to close the PeeCee hole while sucking Bill Gates's balls simultaneously. In the end, the only guarantee you have is that the thing at the end is talking the same language as you and that anyone else can't snoop the traffic and see what's there - so long as your crypto-fu is good, and the security on both machines is decent enough to prevent them from being owned. So why bother? Just because the evil empire is running at full speed towards the precipice doesn't mean we need open source versions of the same insanity that drives'em. ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :NSA got $20Bill/year|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :and didn't stop 9-11|share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:Instead of rewarding|monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :their failures, we |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :should get refunds! |site, and you must change them very often. --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ On Wed, 7 Aug 2002, AARG! Anonymous wrote: > I'd like the Palladium/TCPA critics to offer an alternative proposal > for achieving the following technical goal: > > Allow computers separated on the internet to cooperate and share data > and computations such that no one can get access to the data outside > the limitations and rules imposed by the applications. > > In other words, allow a distributed network application to create a > "closed world" where it has control over the data and no one can get > the application to "cheat". IMO this is clearly the real goal of TCPA > and Palladium, in technical terms, when stripped of all the emotional > rhetoric. --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From dog3 at eruditium.org Thu Aug 8 09:23:42 2002 From: dog3 at eruditium.org (cubic-dog) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 12:23:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: dangers of TCPA/palladium - will the real anon shady please stand up? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Aug 2002, Sunder wrote: > IMNHO TCPA sucks balls. But "anonymous" has the right to speak > anonymously as does anyone, and most of us here will defend that right, > regardless of accepting or rejecting TCPA/Palladium/MSFT. Agreed, The argument stands or collapses on it's own merit. The true name of the author is meaningless. And yes, I also think it "sucks balls". From dog3 at eruditium.org Thu Aug 8 09:51:43 2002 From: dog3 at eruditium.org (cubic-dog) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 12:51:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Challenge to TCPA/Palladium detractors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Aug 2002, AARG! Anonymous wrote: > I'd like the Palladium/TCPA critics to offer an alternative proposal > for achieving the following technical goal: > > Allow computers separated on the internet to cooperate and share data > and computations such that no one can get access to the data outside > the limitations and rules imposed by the applications. Let me restate for clarity, "no one can get access to the data outside the limitations, et al." Simply put, (aside from the usual caveat of "with infinite time and resources") it can't be done in the sense of you and I sharing a document or some such model. Way too many variables/paths/unknowns. > In other words, allow a distributed network application to create a > "closed world" where it has control over the data and no one can get > the application to "cheat". IMO this is clearly the real goal of TCPA > and Palladium, in technical terms, when stripped of all the emotional > rhetoric. "it" I suppose means the "distributed network application". Using the term "no one" makes this whole idea pretty much impossible. "No one" exludes the sufficiently motivated who are willing to go to any lengths. Brute force in its actual sense pretty much always works. Also, when you state that your given scenario is "clearly the real goal" you have already discarded a whopping number of variables, all of which may bear on the challenge. *I* don't know that "this is clearly the real goal of TCPA and Palladium" at all. I accept your opinion as your opinion. I believe you are sincere in interest of discussion. However, it certainly is not my opinion at all. I am not at all clear on what exactly the problem is that TCPA and Palladium are supposed to solve. I presume, until I can be shown otherwise that "it" is a tool to further expand the power of patent and copywrite holders (or more to the point, their barristers) to impose their will on my freedom of speech. Since I don't want to play the part of the fellow who won't be convinced, all I ask is to be shown in clear terms EXACTLY what the problem is, and how EXACTLY this problem is solved by this technology. When I mean exactly, I mean in simple go/no-go logic. I don't need nor particularly want to see the technical specs. There are those out there, and here as well, who are much more qualified to review all that. From dog3 at eruditium.org Thu Aug 8 10:09:06 2002 From: dog3 at eruditium.org (cubic-dog) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 13:09:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: On alliances and enemies. In-Reply-To: <3D515A80.26774.385CDF@localhost> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Aug 2002, James A. Donald wrote: > -- > Hollywood and the government, would like the internet to be like > television, a few big businesses steadily churning out content, > and everyone else passively consuming it. > > Microsoft really would not like that, since, despite all their > faults, they are in the computer business. > > lots of good stuff and analogies snipped Why not? For the purpose of this argument, lets accept as fact this Hollywood/gubbmint alliance. So, why wouldn't Bill & Co want to play? As long as they get a software subscription license fee from every "consumer" of the product, that can be added to everytime a new ground-breaking, earth-shattering, fancy super multimedia immersion technology "standard" is introduced? It *seems* to me that Microsoft wants out of even the software license model they currently have and want to just plug into the consumers "line of credit" and withdraw as they see fit without having to do much more than create easily obsolete-able software techniques that they can consistantly reinvent so that they can continue to siphon credit from their milkcows much in the same way that the gubbmint collects taxes, only with much better "ease of use." I don't see Stalin/Hitler, I see; Standard Oil/ Department of Transporation/ Interstate Commerce Commission) General Motors/ Ford/ and so forth. From dog3 at eruditium.org Thu Aug 8 11:11:56 2002 From: dog3 at eruditium.org (cubic-dog) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 14:11:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: dangers of TCPA/palladium In-Reply-To: <200208081725.TAA01877@home.unipay.nl> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, R. Hirschfeld wrote: > > Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 16:25:26 -0700 > > From: AARG!Anonymous > > > The only way that TCPA will become as popular as you fear is if it really > > solves problems for people. Otherwise nobody will pay the extra $25 to > > put it in their machine. > > Although I support the vote-with-your-wallet paradigm, this analysis > seems overly simplistic to me. Macrovision doesn't solve problems for > most VCR purchasers, but they pay for it anyway. They have no choice. Well put! In fact, Macrovision creates problems for people, does very little to stop "theft of intellectual property". But what it does do is negatively impact the base product, share out a piece of the profits to an otherwise non-player, add a layer of annoyance, and accomplish nothing of benefit for the target, the end user, the one who pays the money. From rsedc at atlantic.gse.rmit.edu.au Wed Aug 7 22:12:00 2002 From: rsedc at atlantic.gse.rmit.edu.au (rsedc at atlantic.gse.rmit.edu.au) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 15:12:00 +1000 Subject: Palladiated? (was re: wow - palladiated! (Re: Palladium: technical limits and implications)) In-Reply-To: ; from R. A. Hettinga on Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 06:37:51PM -0400 References: Message-ID: <20020808151200.A28920@atlantic.gse.rmit.edu.au> > On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 03:08:08PM -0400, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > > At 6:54 PM +0100 on 8/7/02, Adam Back wrote: > > > Palladiumized > > > > Palladiated? > > And the antonym? Odyssielded. Rhymes with shielded. http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/Odysseus.html Odysseus was the first to learned the Palladium Oracles from the Seer Hellenus. Odysseus neutralised (neutronised?) Palladium's defence for Troy. Odysseus invented the first Trojan Horse. Incidentally public revelation of the Palladium is supposed to be on Seventh Day to the Ides of Jun, i.e. 8th. June. The Newsweek article was a bit late. http://www.clubs.psu.edu/aegsa/rome/jun06.htm David Chia --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From remailer at aarg.net Thu Aug 8 16:55:45 2002 From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG!Anonymous) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 16:55:45 -0700 Subject: Challenge to TCPA/Palladium detractors Message-ID: <8c708993eecdbee279fbe47fdeb4a0d0@aarg.net> Anon wrote: > You could even have each participant compile the program himself, > but still each app can recognize the others on the network and > cooperate with them. Matt Crawford replied: > Unless the application author can predict the exact output of the > compilers, he can't issue a signature on the object code. The > compilers then have to be inside the trusted base, checking a > signature on the source code and reflecting it somehow through a > signature they create for the object code. It's likely that only a limited number of compiler configurations would be in common use, and signatures on the executables produced by each of those could be provided. Then all the app writer has to do is to tell people, get compiler version so-and-so and compile with that, and your object will match the hash my app looks for. DEI --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu Thu Aug 8 15:39:24 2002 From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 18:39:24 -0400 Subject: AdCouncil PSAs Message-ID: <20020808223924.GA8285@ils.unc.edu> Holy fuck, I can't believe these new TV PSAs from the AdCouncil: http://www.adcouncil.org/campaigns/campaign_for_freedom I thought they were going to be rah-rah patriotic and stuff. In fact, they use scare tactics -- way beyond "this is your brain on drugs." I think these are to urge conformity and quell dissent, not celebrate freedom. Check out the "library," "church," "arrest" & "diner" PSAs especially. >From the PSA's descriptive text, "This first round of PSAs for the campaign has been created to celebrate our nation's freedom and remind Americans about the importance of freedom and the need to protect it for future generations." In fact, though, that's not the message I saw at all. The message I saw was scenes from one step -- a baby step -- beyond where we are now: reduced freedoms, neighbors monitoring and distrusting each other, overzealous and barely constrained law enforcement. Fear. The Web page says the PSAs are designed based on market research to "assist Americans during the war on terrorism." I don't understand why they used scare tactics in these but the outcome, for me, is a different interpretation of the PSA's tag-lines, "Freedom. Appreciate it. Cherish it. Protect it." What I hear is "what you have IS freedom, despite how it appears. See, we can show you how much worse it could be." Whew....Greg PS: I did a search in their calendar to see when these are supposed to air. Result: "'freedom' not found." From jamesd at echeque.com Thu Aug 8 18:59:48 2002 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 18:59:48 -0700 Subject: On alliances and enemies. In-Reply-To: References: <3D515A80.26774.385CDF@localhost> Message-ID: <3D52BFA4.15416.1518E41@localhost> -- On 8 Aug 2002 at 13:09, cubic-dog wrote: > For the purpose of this argument, lets accept as fact this > Hollywood/gubbmint alliance. So, why wouldn't Bill & Co want to > play? A big bureaucracy has a lot of inertia. It wants to do what it always has been doing, it gets set in its ways. If the internet and consumer computers are mandated to be like TV, the TV people will wind up in charge, and Microsoft will not wind up in charge. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG OrPfArPJfauYoxApR4gFvBiF/ejwrZGskzoVEQJt 2QHCPliH2SKXP0eaVWlIy65Nye07RsyZOo8xbrIAA From ray at unipay.nl Thu Aug 8 10:25:31 2002 From: ray at unipay.nl (R. Hirschfeld) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 19:25:31 +0200 Subject: dangers of TCPA/palladium In-Reply-To: <09fdc16bc6a040e13686c9150aca01d9@aarg.net> (message from AARG!Anonymous on Mon, 5 Aug 2002 16:25:26 -0700) References: <09fdc16bc6a040e13686c9150aca01d9@aarg.net> Message-ID: <200208081725.TAA01877@home.unipay.nl> > Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 16:25:26 -0700 > From: AARG!Anonymous > The only way that TCPA will become as popular as you fear is if it really > solves problems for people. Otherwise nobody will pay the extra $25 to > put it in their machine. Although I support the vote-with-your-wallet paradigm, this analysis seems overly simplistic to me. Macrovision doesn't solve problems for most VCR purchasers, but they pay for it anyway. They have no choice. In some cases people are required to buy and use something that they might not otherwise be inclined to pay for, e.g., catalytic converters in automobiles (which also use palladium). It doesn't seem reasonable to similarly require TCPA in computers, but legislators might think (or be lobbied) otherwise. If the fears that some people have expressed prove justified and TCPA becomes primarily a means to enforce draconian copyright restrictions, then people may well choose to pay for it just to regain pre-TCPA functionality. In that case, the problems it solves for them are the same ones it causes! --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From swpteam at hotmail.com Thu Aug 8 18:29:26 2002 From: swpteam at hotmail.com (steve) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 20:29:26 -0500 Subject: FREE REPORT: Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months!!! Message-ID: <200208090129.g791TQJ1017369@ak47.algebra.com> Steven W. Pratt Ph: 610-842-6318 233 Brandywine Rd Collegeville, PA 19426 USING THE POWER OF INTERNET, READ THE FOLLOWING MESSAGE CAREFULLY AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV: ''Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from You're home for an investment of only $25 U.S. or CANADIAN Dollars expense one time'' THANKS TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET! ================================================= BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!! Before you say ''Bull'', please read the following. This is the letter you have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the Internet, a national weekly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of this program described below, to see if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. 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Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada --------------------------------------------------- -------- ''I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone else.........11 months passed then it luckily came again...... I did not delete this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the money came within 22 weeks''. Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y. --------------------------------------------------- -------- ''It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with little cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully and within 10 days the money started to come in. My first month I made $ 20, 560.00 and by the end of third month my total cash count was $ 362,840.00. Life is beautiful, Thanx to internet''. Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand --------------------------------------------------- -------- ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM! ================================================== If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C. /////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////// ONE TIME MAILING, NO NEED TO REMOVE /////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////// This message is sent in compliance of the proposed bill SECTION 301. per Section 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618. Further transmission to you by the sender of this e-mail may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply to youcansucceed at hotmail.com Steven W. Pratt Ph: 610-842-6318 (Please call if you have questions or concerns) 233 Brandywine Rd Collegeville, PA 19426 This message is not intended for residents in the State of Washington, screening of addresses has been done to the best of our technical ability. From ray at unipay.nl Thu Aug 8 12:55:40 2002 From: ray at unipay.nl (R. Hirschfeld) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 21:55:40 +0200 Subject: Challenge to TCPA/Palladium detractors In-Reply-To: (message from AARG!Anonymous on Wed, 7 Aug 2002 12:50:29 -0700) References: Message-ID: <200208081955.VAA02106@home.unipay.nl> > Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 12:50:29 -0700 > From: AARG!Anonymous > I'd like the Palladium/TCPA critics to offer an alternative proposal > for achieving the following technical goal: > > Allow computers separated on the internet to cooperate and share data > and computations such that no one can get access to the data outside > the limitations and rules imposed by the applications. The model and the goal are a bit different, but how about secure multi-party computation, as introduced by Chaum, Crepeau, and Damgard in 1988 and subsequently refined by others? --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From levitte at openssl.org Thu Aug 8 15:35:40 2002 From: levitte at openssl.org (Richard Levitte - VMS Whacker) Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 00:35:40 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ANNOUNCE] OpenSSL 0.9.6f released Message-ID: <20020809.003540.10906124.levitte@openssl.org> OpenSSL version 0.9.6f released =============================== OpenSSL - The Open Source toolkit for SSL/TLS http://www.openssl.org/ The OpenSSL project team is pleased to announce the release of version 0.9.6f of our open source toolkit for SSL/TLS. This new OpenSSL version is a security and bugfix release and incorporates several changes to the toolkit (for a complete list see http://www.openssl.org/source/exp/CHANGES). The most significant changes are: o Various important bugfixes. We consider OpenSSL 0.9.6f to be the best version of OpenSSL available and we strongly recommend that users of older versions upgrade as soon as possible. OpenSSL 0.9.6f is available for download via HTTP and FTP from the following master locations (you can find the various FTP mirrors under http://www.openssl.org/source/mirror.html): o http://www.openssl.org/source/ o ftp://ftp.openssl.org/source/ [1] OpenSSL comes in the form of two distributions this time. The reasons for this is that we want to deploy the external crypto device support but don't want to have it part of the "normal" distribution just yet. The distribution containing the external crypto device support is popularly called "engine", and is considered experimental. It's been fairly well tested on Unix and flavors thereof. If run on a system with no external crypto device, it will work just like the "normal" distribution. The distribution file names are: o openssl-0.9.6f.tar.gz [normal] MD5 checksum: 160ac38bd2784e633ed291d03f0087d4 o openssl-engine-0.9.6f.tar.gz [engine] MD5 checksum: 26f4b7189fb3ef9c701e961ffe101a95 The checksums were calculated using the following commands: openssl md5 < openssl-0.9.6f.tar.gz openssl md5 < openssl-engine-0.9.6f.tar.gz Yours, The OpenSSL Project Team... Mark J. Cox Ben Laurie Andy Polyakoff Ralf S. Engelschall Richard Levitte Geoff Thorpe Dr. Stephen Henson Bodo Möller Lutz Jänicke Ulf Möller -- Richard Levitte levitte at openssl.org OpenSSL Project http://www.openssl.org/~levitte/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From bill.stewart at POBOX.COM Fri Aug 9 00:36:34 2002 From: bill.stewart at POBOX.COM (Bill Stewart) Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 00:36:34 -0700 Subject: SF Bay area to begin massive tracking of FasTrak commuters [ or if it is available , we will use or abuse it djf] Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20020809002812.02a86800@idiom.com> The Fastrak system used for toll collections in San Francisco and other areas has found another use - monitoring traffic flow on freeways by tracking suckers\\\\\\\customers' cars when they're *not* in tollbooths. The system managers purport that they'll protect privacy by destroying any individually identifiable data after a day, and also keeping personal identification information separate from encrypted transponder IDs, but fundamentally, if they information's there, it's accessible and usable. -----Original Message----- From: Dave Farber [mailto:dave at farber.net] Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 5:33 PM To: ip Subject: IP: SF Bay area to begin massive tracking of FasTrak commuters [ or if it is available , we will use or abuse it djf] http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-tracking-drivers0808aug08.story?coll=sns%2Dap%2Dnationworld%2Dheadlines http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-tracking-drivers0808aug08.story Traffic System Causes Privacy Outcry By KAREN GAUDETTE Associated Press Writer August 8, 2002, 6:36 PM EDT OAKLAND, Calif. -- In about a month, traffic sensors being installed along San Francisco Bay area highways will be able to track a quarter million drivers along their commutes. Proponents say the $37 million enhancement to the region's electronic toll system will be a boon to commuters, providing motorists real-time information about some of the nation's worst road congestion via cell phone, radio or Internet. Traffic planners will be able to gather crucial data on problem areas. But despite government assurances, the new program is also raising fears that drivers' privacy will be invaded. Similar to systems in Houston and the New York region, the Bay area's FasTrak program already eases waits at toll plazas by enabling motorists to pay with electronic devices velcroed to the windshields of vehicles. Now, radio-based sensors mounted on highway signs every few miles will augment the devices' usefulness. To the dismay of some FasTrak users, monitoring is not optional. The only way to avoid triggering the sensors throughout nine Bay Area counties is to stash the transponder in its accompanying Mylar bag. Project leaders at the Metropolitan Transportation Commission say they're not interested in the movements of individual drivers, and have gone to great lengths to protect privacy, including encrypting the serial number of each transponder as its location is transmitted. Authorities promise to keep this data separate from the identities of FasTrak users and other information needed to make automatic monthly deductions from their bank or credit card accounts. "We're not tracking or trying to follow any individual car, just the overall traffic flow," TravInfo project manager Michael Berman said. But some drivers say having a more detailed traffic report isn't worth the sense that someone's watching. "I personally am a little creeped out by it," said interior designer Heidi Hirvonen-White, who crosses the Golden Gate Bridge commuting between Tiburon and San Francisco. "In today's society it seems like any sort of code or whatnot can be broken." Those in the automotive telematics industry say the Bay Area's "TravInfo" project is only the latest example of the growing phenomenon of remote monitoring. Many rental fleets and trucking companies already use satellite positioning systems to track cars and cargo. Companies promote similar products for keeping tabs on kids, Alzheimer's patients or cheating spouses. Washington is also promoting locator technology. By October, the Federal Communications Commission wants cell phones equipped with locator technology to help emergency responders find callers. That requirement will also enable authorities to track users, even calculating road speeds, said Ray Grefe, vice president of business development for telematics software company Televoke. "I think there are going to be some nasty court battles that come out of all of this stuff," Grefe said. Transponder data has already been used in court. In 1997, E-ZPass records helped show what kidnappers did to New Jersey restaurant millionaire Nelson Gross, whose BMW crossed the George Washington Bridge into Manhattan, where his beaten corpse was found. Another case involved a Connecticut rental car company that charged customers $150 each time a GPS receiver showed they were speeding. The company has since stopped the practice. Berman emphasized that the Bay Area system won't be used to track kidnappers or car thieves who happen to have FasTrak in their cars, let alone adulterers. The MTC -- along with its partners, the California Highway Patrol and the state transportation department -- has received no requests from law enforcement to tweak the system so drivers could be pursued, Berman said, adding, "I think if they were to request it, we would say no. That's not our job." But privacy advocates say that once the sensors are in place, there's nothing to prevent such a change. New laws imposed after Sept. 11 make it much easier for police to obtain such information. "Yes, they're building in limitations on the data use, but there's nothing to prevent them from changing the policies in the future," said Beth Givens, director of the San Diego-based Privacy Rights Clearinghouse. Each of the California system's sensors has two antennas. One continually sends out a radio pulse that "wakes up" when it hits a passing FasTrak transponder. The other antenna notes the transponder's serial number, and transmits it, using encryption, via cellular modem to the MTC's Travel Information Center in Oakland. Transponders beep as cars pass through toll plazas, but remain silent when they pass the sensors. All record of serials numbers stored in electronic files will be destroyed daily, leaving only general averages and patterns for later study, Berman said. In Texas, 1.5 million commuters use a similar traffic information service, said Artee Jones, spokesman for Houston TranStar, which incorporates similar privacy measures. While some FasTrak users remain troubled, few said they'd give up the shorter toll booth lines or discounts to avoid participating. Michael Pieri of Richmond said he has nothing to hide, but he'll still stash the transponder away between tolls. "That's fine if you volunteer for that," he said. "But involuntarily, I don't think it's a good thing at all." * __ On the Net: Metropolitan Transportation Commission: http://www.mtc.ca.gov TravInfo program: http://www.travinfo.org http://www.televoke.com Copyright ) 2002, The Associated Press For archives see: http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/ From ray at unipay.nl Thu Aug 8 15:46:24 2002 From: ray at unipay.nl (R. Hirschfeld) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 00:46:24 +0200 Subject: Challenge to TCPA/Palladium detractors In-Reply-To: <200208081955.VAA02106@home.unipay.nl> (ray@unipay.nl) References: <200208081955.VAA02106@home.unipay.nl> Message-ID: <200208082246.AAA02417@home.unipay.nl> > Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 21:55:40 +0200 > From: "R. Hirschfeld" > > > Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 12:50:29 -0700 > > From: AARG!Anonymous > > > I'd like the Palladium/TCPA critics to offer an alternative proposal > > for achieving the following technical goal: > > > > Allow computers separated on the internet to cooperate and share data > > and computations such that no one can get access to the data outside > > the limitations and rules imposed by the applications. > > The model and the goal are a bit different, but how about secure > multi-party computation, as introduced by Chaum, Crepeau, and Damgard > in 1988 and subsequently refined by others? Sorry, I see from an earlier message of yours that you are looking for a simple non-crypto solution, so I guess this doesn't fit the bill. The examples you gave in your earlier message all seem to be equivalent to having the participants send the data to a trusted third party who performs the computation, except that the trusted third party is transplanted to one or more of the participants computers, which are protected against their owners. I guess it boils down to whether or not the level of trust is sufficient. This seems iffy when one of the participants is also the trust provider. --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From shamrock at cypherpunks.to Fri Aug 9 00:48:21 2002 From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 00:48:21 -0700 Subject: Challenge to TCPA/Palladium detractors In-Reply-To: <8c708993eecdbee279fbe47fdeb4a0d0@aarg.net> Message-ID: <004901c23f79$23192b80$6801a8c0@xpserver> Anonymous wrote: > Matt Crawford replied: > > Unless the application author can predict the exact output of the > > compilers, he can't issue a signature on the object code. The > > compilers then have to be inside the trusted base, checking a > > signature on the source code and reflecting it somehow through a > > signature they create for the object code. > > It's likely that only a limited number of compiler > configurations would be in common use, and signatures on the > executables produced by each of those could be provided. > Then all the app writer has to do is to tell people, get > compiler version so-and-so and compile with that, and your > object will match the hash my app looks for. DEI The above view may be overly optimistic. IIRC, nobody outside PGP was ever able to compile a PGP binary from source that matched the hash of the binaries built by PGP. --Lucky Green --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From shamrock at cypherpunks.to Fri Aug 9 00:48:44 2002 From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 00:48:44 -0700 Subject: Utilizing Palladium against software piracy Message-ID: <005101c23f79$2fdb9e70$6801a8c0@xpserver> I would like to again thank the Palladium team, in particular Peter Biddle, for participating in yesterday's panel at the USENIX Security conference on Palladium and TCPA. Unfortunately I do not have the time at the moment to write up the many valuable and informative points made during the panel discussion. I will, however, highlight one such issue: As Peter pointed out, while the Palladium effort was started to meet the content protection requirements of digital video content providers, he also pointed out that Microsoft and its Palladium group have so far been unable to determine a method in which Palladium could be utilized to assist in the efforts against application software piracy. As Peter mentioned, the Palladium team on several occasions had to tell the Microsoft's anti-piracy group that Palladium is unsuitable to assist in software (as distinct from content) licensing and anti-piracy efforts. Since Microsoft is not aware of a method to utilize the Palladium environment in the enforcement of software licenses, Peter argued, Microsoft does not intend to and will not utilize Palladium to assist in the enforcement of software licensing. I, on the other hand, am able to think of several methods in which Palladium or operating systems built on top of TCPA can be used to assist in the enforcement of software licenses and the fight against software piracy. I therefore, over the course of the night, wrote - and my patent agent filed with the USPTO earlier today - an application for an US Patent covering numerous methods by which software applications can be protected against software piracy on a platform offering the features that are slated to be provided by Palladium. --Lucky Green From anonymous at remailer.havenco.com Thu Aug 8 20:52:56 2002 From: anonymous at remailer.havenco.com (Anonymous User) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 03:52:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Signing as one member of a set of keys Message-ID: This program can be used by anonymous contributors to release partial information about their identity - they can show that they are someone from a list of PGP key holders, without revealing which member of the list they are. Maybe it can help in the recent controvery over the identity of anonymous posters. It's a fairly low-level program that should be wrapped in a nicer UI. I'll send a couple of perl scripts later that make it easier to use. === /* Implementation of ring signatures from * http://theory.lcs.mit.edu/~rivest/RivestShamirTauman-HowToLeakASecret.pdf * by Rivest, Shamir and Tauman * * This creates and verifies a signature such that it was produced from * one of a fixed set of RSA keys. * * It requires the openssl library to build, which is available from * www.openssl.org. * * This program takes a PGP public key ring file which holds a set of * old-style RSA public keys. It creates and verifies signatures which * are such that they were issued by one of the keys in that file, but * there is no way to tell which one did it. In this way the signer can * leak partial information about his identity - that he is one member * of a selected set of signers. * * To sign, the signer must also give a PGP secret key file which holds * one key (actually the program ignores any keys past the first). * That key should be the secret part of one of the keys in the public * key file. Also, it should be set to have no passphrase - it is too * complicated for a simple program like this to try to untangle PGP * passphrases. So set your key to have no passphrase, then run this * program, then set it back. * * The program outputs the signature in the form of a list of big numbers, * base64 encoded. There will be as many numbers as there were keys in * the public key file. So signatures are quite large in this scheme, * proportional to the number of keys in the group that the signature * comes from. They are also proportional to the largest key in the * group, so all else being equal try not to include really big keys if * you care about size. * * The signature is not appended to the text being signed, it is just * output separately. The signer can combine them manually with some kind * of cut marks so that the recipient can separate out the signature from * the file being signed. Some perl scripts that do this are supposed * to be distributed with the program. (That is what is used to verify * the signature in this file itself.) * * The recipient must use the same PGP public key file that the signer * used. So that may have to be sent along as well. He runs the program * with the PGP file and the file to be verified, and sends the signature * data into stdin (using the "<" character). The program will print * whether the signature is good or not. * * This program was written in just a couple of evenings so it is * a little rough. This is version 0.9 or so - at least it works. * It has only been tested on my Linux system. * * The program is released into the public domain. See the end for * authorship information. */ #include #include #include "openssl/bn.h" #include "openssl/rsa.h" #include "openssl/sha.h" #include "openssl/evp.h" /* Cipher block size; we use Blowfish */ #define CIPHERBLOCK 8 typedef unsigned char uchar; enum { ERR_OK = 0, ERR_BADPKT=-100, ERR_EOF, ERR_SECNOTFOUND, ERR_BADSIG, }; /************************** PGP FILE PARSING ***************************/ /* Read the N and E values from a PGP public key packet */ int rdpgppub( BIGNUM *n, BIGNUM *e, unsigned *bytesused, uchar *buf, unsigned len ) { int nbits, nlen, ebits, elen; unsigned o=2; if (len < 10) return ERR_BADPKT; if (buf[0] == 4) /* Check version 4, 3, or 2 */ o = 0; else if (buf[0] != 2 && buf[0] != 3) /* V2&3 have 2 extra bytes */ return ERR_BADPKT; if (buf[5+o] != 1) /* Check alg - 1 is RSA */ return ERR_BADPKT; nbits = (buf[6+o] << 8) | buf[7+o]; /* Read modulus */ nlen = (nbits + 7)/8; if (len < 10+o+nlen) return ERR_BADPKT; BN_bin2bn(buf+o+8, nlen, n); ebits = (buf[8+o+nlen] << 8) | buf[9+o+nlen]; /* Read exponent */ elen = (ebits + 7)/8; if (len < 10+o+nlen+elen) return ERR_BADPKT; BN_bin2bn(buf+10+o+nlen, elen, e); if (bytesused) *bytesused = 10+o+nlen+elen; return ERR_OK; } /* Read the N, E, D values from a PGP secret key packet with no passphrase */ int rdpgpsec( BIGNUM *n, BIGNUM *e, BIGNUM *d, uchar *buf, unsigned len ) { int err; int nbits, nlen, ebits, elen, dbits, dlen; unsigned o; if ((err = rdpgppub(n, e, &o, buf, len)) < 0) return err; if (len < o+3) return ERR_BADPKT; if (buf[o] != 0) /* Check that packet is unencrypted */ return ERR_BADPKT; dbits = (buf[o+1] << 8) | buf[o+2]; /* Read private exponent */ dlen = (dbits + 7)/8; if (len < o+3+dlen) return ERR_BADPKT; BN_bin2bn(buf+o+3, dlen, d); return ERR_OK; } /* Read the next PGP packet into malloc'd memory */ int getpgppkt( uchar **pbuf, unsigned *plen, int *type, FILE *f ) { int c, c1; uchar *buf; unsigned len; int llen; uchar lbuf[4]; c = fgetc(f); if (c == EOF) return ERR_EOF; if ((c & 0xc0) == 0x80) { /* Old PGP packet */ *type = (c >> 2) & 0xf; llen = c & 0x3; if (llen++==3) return ERR_BADPKT; rdllen: if (llen==3) llen=4; memset (lbuf, 0, 4); if (fread(lbuf+4-llen, 1, llen, f) != llen) return ERR_BADPKT; len = (lbuf[0]<<24) | (lbuf[1]<<16) | (lbuf[2]<<8) | lbuf[3]; } else if ((c & 0xc0) == 0xc0) { /* New PGP packet */ *type = c & 0x3f; c = fgetc(f); if (c == EOF) return ERR_BADPKT; if (c == 0xff) { llen = 4; goto rdllen; } if (c >= 0xe0) return ERR_BADPKT; if (c >= 0xc0) { /* Two byte length */ c1 = fgetc(f); if (c1 == EOF) return ERR_BADPKT; len = (c<<8) + c1 - 0xc000 + 0xc0; } else { /* One byte length */ len = c; } } else { /* Non PGP packet */ return ERR_BADPKT; } buf = malloc(len); if (buf==NULL) return ERR_BADPKT; if (fread(buf, 1, len, f) != len) return ERR_BADPKT; *pbuf = buf; *plen = len; return ERR_OK; } /* Read a PGP key ring and create arrays of all the n, e values */ int rdpgppubring(BIGNUM ***n_arr_ptr, BIGNUM ***e_arr_ptr, int *nkeys_ptr, FILE *f) { int err = ERR_OK; uchar *buf; unsigned len; int type; int nkeys = 0; BIGNUM **n_arr = NULL; BIGNUM **e_arr = NULL; BIGNUM *n, *e; n_arr = malloc(sizeof(BIGNUM *)); e_arr = malloc(sizeof(BIGNUM *)); while (err == ERR_OK) { err = getpgppkt (&buf, &len, &type, f); if (err != ERR_OK) break; if (type == 6) /* public key packet */ { n = BN_new(); e = BN_new(); err = rdpgppub(n, e, NULL, buf, len); if (err != ERR_OK) break; ++nkeys; n_arr = realloc(n_arr, sizeof(BIGNUM *) * nkeys); e_arr = realloc(e_arr, sizeof(BIGNUM *) * nkeys); n_arr[nkeys-1] = n; e_arr[nkeys-1] = e; } free (buf); } if (err != ERR_EOF) return err; err = ERR_OK; *n_arr_ptr = n_arr; *e_arr_ptr = e_arr; *nkeys_ptr = nkeys; return err; } /* Read a PGP secret key file and find the corresponding value in the * array of public key values. Return the d value and the index in the * public key array. */ int rdpgpsecring(BIGNUM *d, int *secindex, BIGNUM **n_arr, BIGNUM **e_arr, int nkeys, FILE *f) { int err = ERR_OK; BIGNUM *n, *e; uchar *buf; unsigned len; int i; int type; err = getpgppkt (&buf, &len, &type, f); if (err != ERR_OK) return err; if (type != 5) /* Secret key packet */ return ERR_BADPKT; n = BN_new(); e = BN_new(); err = rdpgpsec(n, e, d, buf, len); if (err != ERR_OK) return err; for (i=0; i 0) { t = n[i]; n[i] = n[j]; n[j] = t; t = e[i]; e[i] = e[j]; e[j] = t; } } } return ERR_OK; } /* Hash the file. Should have opened it in ASCII mode so that we have * standard Unix line endings (newlines only). */ int hashfile( uchar md[5], FILE *f ) { char buf[1024]; SHA_CTX sha; SHA_Init(&sha); for ( ; ; ) { if (fgets (buf, sizeof(buf), f) == NULL) break; SHA_Update(&sha, buf, strlen(buf)); } SHA_Final (md, &sha); return ERR_OK; } /* Do an RSA enc/dec, where the input/output value may be larger * than n. In fact, val should be much larger than n or this may fail * to keep val within the desired range. * To decrypt pass d in place of e. */ int rsaencdec( BIGNUM *rslt, BIGNUM *val, BIGNUM *n, BIGNUM *e, BN_CTX *ctx ) { BIGNUM *rem = BN_new(); BIGNUM *newrem = BN_new(); BN_div (NULL, rem, val, n, ctx); BN_mod_exp (newrem, rem, e, n, ctx); BN_sub (rslt, val, rem); BN_add (rslt, rslt, newrem); BN_free (rem); BN_free (newrem); } /************************** SIG CREATE/VERIFY ***************************/ /* Verify a signature. sigs holds the per-key signature values, * hashval is the hash of the data which was signed, valbytes is the * length of the values we work with, several bytes longer than the longest * modulus, and n_arr and e_arr are the RSA public key values, of whic * there are nkeys of them. (There are also nkeys of sigs.) */ int checksig( BIGNUM **sigs, uchar *hashval, int hashvalbytes, int valbytes, BIGNUM **n_arr, BIGNUM **e_arr, int nkeys, BN_CTX *ctx ) { BIGNUM *val = BN_new(); uchar ivec[CIPHERBLOCK]; BF_KEY bf; uchar *sigbuf; uchar *xorbuf; int vallen; int i, j; /* Key cipher with the hash value */ BF_set_key (&bf, hashvalbytes, hashval); /* Init xorbuf to 0's */ xorbuf = malloc(valbytes); memset (xorbuf, 0, valbytes); sigbuf = malloc(valbytes); for (i=0; i valbytes) { fprintf (stderr, "Bad signature created by signer\n"); exit (3); } /* XOR into buffer */ memset (sigbuf, 0, valbytes); BN_bn2bin (val, sigbuf+valbytes-vallen); for (j=0; j valbytes with random val */ vallen = BN_num_bytes(val); /* XOR into right xor buf and encrypt */ memset (sigbuf, 0, valbytes); BN_bn2bin (val, sigbuf+valbytes-vallen); for (j=0; jsecindex; i--) { /* For other keys do a fake value */ sigs[i] = BN_new(); BN_rand_range (sigs[i], bigval); rsaencdec (val, sigs[i], n_arr[i], e_arr[i], ctx); /* Infinitisimal chance that vallen > valbytes with random val */ vallen = BN_num_bytes(val); /* XOR into left xor buf and decrypt */ memset (sigbuf, 0, valbytes); BN_bn2bin (val, sigbuf+valbytes-vallen); for (j=0; j References: <200208072113.g77LDaC17060@gungnir.fnal.gov> Message-ID: <3D5378ED.9941.21E6F6@localhost> -- On Wed, 7 Aug 2002, Matt Crawford wrote: > > Unless the application author can predict the exact output of > > the compilers, he can't issue a signature on the object code. > > The On 9 Aug 2002 at 10:48, Eugen Leitl wrote: > Same version of compiler on same source using same build > produces identical binaries. This has not been my experience. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG vP+cB8hTnaqPfAtiGlYdo9QuJCpq884ER6Mo+F9m 2SkruXvZexqOoTAk6QuWuruF5x4fT0Rq4v/YSxLAt From cyphrpnk at shannon.permutation.net Fri Aug 9 09:01:10 2002 From: cyphrpnk at shannon.permutation.net (cyphrpnk) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 09:01:10 -0700 Subject: AARG and eugene are net.loons-why signatures of binaries always change. Message-ID: <20020809090110.A24161@shannon.permutation.net> Hi all, Its obvious that some of us here are developers and still others have never typed make or gcc in their lives. -v and -V options given to various forms of ld caused the embeddment of version information in the binary(Sunpro does this also, AND early versions of MSC allowed embeddment of version information also.) The fact that most environments dont link -Bstatic and instead link -Bdynamic means that every time you attempt to produce a binary from 2 different systems that the dynamic link information will be different checkout link.h link_elf.h link_aout.h in /usr/include in addition MOST modern developement environments include a date field when compiled and linked in the binary sheesh a cypherpunk BTW. AARG and eugene are idiots nyah nyah nyah!! From simpson at samsimpson.com Fri Aug 9 09:16:17 2002 From: simpson at samsimpson.com (Sam Simpson) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 09:16:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Challenge to TCPA/Palladium detractors In-Reply-To: <004901c23f79$23192b80$6801a8c0@xpserver> Message-ID: I'm not surprised that most people couldn't produce a matching PGP executbales - most compilers (irrespective of compiler optimisation options etc) include a timestamp in the executable. Regards, Sam Simpson sam at samsimpson.com http://www.samsimpson.com/ Mob: +44 (0) 7866 726060 Home Office: +44 (0) 1438 229390 Fax: +44 (0) 1438 726069 On Fri, 9 Aug 2002, Lucky Green wrote: > Anonymous wrote: > > Matt Crawford replied: > > > Unless the application author can predict the exact output of the > > > compilers, he can't issue a signature on the object code. The > > > compilers then have to be inside the trusted base, checking a > > > signature on the source code and reflecting it somehow through a > > > signature they create for the object code. > > > > It's likely that only a limited number of compiler > > configurations would be in common use, and signatures on the > > executables produced by each of those could be provided. > > Then all the app writer has to do is to tell people, get > > compiler version so-and-so and compile with that, and your > > object will match the hash my app looks for. DEI > > The above view may be overly optimistic. IIRC, nobody outside PGP was > ever able to compile a PGP binary from source that matched the hash of > the binaries built by PGP. > > --Lucky Green > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > The Cryptography Mailing List > Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From remailer at aarg.net Fri Aug 9 10:05:15 2002 From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG!Anonymous) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 10:05:15 -0700 Subject: Thanks, Lucky, for helping to kill gnutella Message-ID: <8c25bf764b14de9e2d3d9cd24a6d49fb@aarg.net> An article on Salon this morning (also being discussed on slashdot), http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2002/08/08/gnutella_developers/print.html, discusses how the file-trading network Gnutella is being threatened by misbehaving clients. In response, the developers are looking at limiting the network to only authorized clients: > On Gnutella discussion sites, programmers are discussing a number of > technical proposals that would make access to the network contingent > on good behavior: If you write code that hurts Gnutella, in other > words, you don't get to play. One idea would allow only "clients that > you can authenticate" to speak on the network, Fisk says. This would > include the five-or-so most popular Gnutella applications, including > "Limewire, BearShare, Toadnode, Xolox, Gtk-Gnutella, and Gnucleus." If > new clients want to join the group, they would need to abide by a certain > communication specification. They intend to do this using digital signatures, and there is precedent for this in past situations where there have been problems: > Alan Cox, a veteran Linux developer, says that he's seen this sort of > debate before, and he's not against a system that keeps out malicious > users using technology. "Years and years ago this came up with a game > called Xtrek," Cox says. People were building clients with unfair > capabilities to play the space game -- and the solution, says Cox, > was to introduce digital signatures. "Unless a client has been signed, > it can't play. You could build any client you wanted, but what you can't > do is build an Xtrek client that let you play better." Not discussed in the article is the technical question of how this can possibly work. If you issue a digital certificate on some Gnutella client, what stops a different client, an unauthorized client, from pretending to be the legitimate one? This is especially acute if the authorized client is open source, as then anyone can see the cert, see exactly what the client does with it, and merely copy that behavior. If only there were a technology in which clients could verify and yes, even trust, each other remotely. Some way in which a digital certificate on a program could actually be verified, perhaps by some kind of remote, trusted hardware device. This way you could know that a remote system was actually running a well-behaved client before admitting it to the net. This would protect Gnutella from not only the kind of opportunistic misbehavior seen today, but the future floods, attacks and DOSing which will be launched in earnest once the content companies get serious about taking this network down. If only... Luckily the cypherpunks are doing all they can to make sure that no such technology ever exists. They will protect us from being able to extend trust across the network. They will make sure that any open network like Gnutella must forever face the challenge of rogue clients. They will make sure that open source systems are especially vulnerable to rogues, helping to drive these projects into closed source form. Be sure and send a note to the Gnutella people reminding them of all you're doing for them, okay, Lucky? --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From ericm at lne.com Fri Aug 9 10:39:13 2002 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 10:39:13 -0700 Subject: Thanks, Lucky, for helping to kill gnutella In-Reply-To: <8c25bf764b14de9e2d3d9cd24a6d49fb@aarg.net>; from remailer@aarg.net on Fri, Aug 09, 2002 at 10:05:15AM -0700 References: <8c25bf764b14de9e2d3d9cd24a6d49fb@aarg.net> Message-ID: <20020809103913.B5594@slack.lne.com> On Fri, Aug 09, 2002 at 10:05:15AM -0700, AARG! Anonymous wrote: > > On Gnutella discussion sites, programmers are discussing a number of > > technical proposals that would make access to the network contingent > > on good behavior: If you write code that hurts Gnutella, in other > > words, you don't get to play. One idea would allow only "clients that > > you can authenticate" to speak on the network, Fisk says. This would > > include the five-or-so most popular Gnutella applications, including > > "Limewire, BearShare, Toadnode, Xolox, Gtk-Gnutella, and Gnucleus." If > > new clients want to join the group, they would need to abide by a certain > > communication specification. > > They intend to do this using digital signatures, and there is precedent > for this in past situations where there have been problems: Depending on the clients to "do the right thing" is fundamentally stupid. [..] > Be sure and send a note to the Gnutella people reminding them of all > you're doing for them, okay, Lucky? This sort of attack doesn't do your position any good. Eric From Palmcitywhol at yahoo.com Fri Aug 9 09:33:17 2002 From: Palmcitywhol at yahoo.com (Palmcitywhol at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 11:33:17 -0500 Subject: liquidation Message-ID: <200208091647.g79Gl0pU020661@ak47.algebra.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 303 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bram at gawth.com Fri Aug 9 11:59:05 2002 From: bram at gawth.com (Bram Cohen) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 11:59:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Thanks, Lucky, for helping to kill gnutella In-Reply-To: <8c25bf764b14de9e2d3d9cd24a6d49fb@aarg.net> Message-ID: AARG!Anonymous wrote: > If only there were a technology in which clients could verify and yes, > even trust, each other remotely. Some way in which a digital certificate > on a program could actually be verified, perhaps by some kind of remote, > trusted hardware device. This way you could know that a remote system was > actually running a well-behaved client before admitting it to the net. > This would protect Gnutella from not only the kind of opportunistic > misbehavior seen today, but the future floods, attacks and DOSing which > will be launched in earnest once the content companies get serious about > taking this network down. Before claiming that the TCPA, which is from a deployment standpoint vaporware, could help with gnutella's scaling problems, you should probably learn something about what gnutella's problems are first. The truth is that gnutella's problems are mostly that it's a screamer protocol, and limiting which clients could connect would do nothing to fix that. Limiting which clients could connect to the gnutella network would, however, do a decent job of forcing to pay people for one of the commercial clients. In this way it's very typical of how TCPA works - a non-solution to a problem, but one which could potentially make money, and has the support of gullible dupes who know nothing about the technical issues involved. > Be sure and send a note to the Gnutella people reminding them of all > you're doing for them, okay, Lucky? Your personal vendetta against Lucky is very childish. -Bram Cohen "Markets can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent" -- John Maynard Keynes --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From eugen at leitl.org Fri Aug 9 03:49:02 2002 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 12:49:02 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Challenge to TCPA/Palladium detractors In-Reply-To: <00ae01c23f8b$11247080$c71121c2@sharpuk.co.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Aug 2002, David Howe wrote: > It doesn't though - that is the point. I am not sure if it is simply > that there are timestamps in the final executable, but Visual C (to give > a common example, as that is what the windows PGP builds compile with) > will not give an identical binary, even if you hit "rebuild all" twice > in close succession and compare the two outputs, nothing having changed. I've just verified this also occurs on OpenSSL under RH 7.3 (gcc --version 2.96). I haven't done a binary diff, but I'm also suspecting a time stamp. Can anyone shed some light on this? From eresrch at eskimo.com Fri Aug 9 13:03:57 2002 From: eresrch at eskimo.com (Mike Rosing) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 13:03:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Thanks, Lucky, for helping to kill gnutella In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Aug 2002, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > There are many solutions at the level of "technical protocols" that solve > the projection of these problems down to the low dimensional subspace of > "technical problems". Some of these "technical protocols" will be part of > a full system which accomplishes the desired ends. Please contact me > off-list if you willing to spend some money for an implementation. Hey! Tell the Gnutella folks I'll be happy to bid on that too! I'm pretty sure I can get them a solid solution, especially since it's just a "technical" problem. Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike From mv at cdc.gov Fri Aug 9 13:38:32 2002 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 13:38:32 -0700 Subject: Tommy loses his toys (laptop stolen from MacDill SCIF) Message-ID: <3D542848.32EFCB28@cdc.gov> Guess who wasn't using encrypted disks? MacDILL AIR FORCE BASE - Two laptop computers missing from Gen. Tommy Franks' headquarters were kept in an ultrasensitive locked and alarmed security room intended to safeguard some of the military's deepest secrets in the U.S. war on terrorism, officials said Wednesday. At least one of the laptops contained highly classified information, they said. The room is known in military shorthand as a SCIF, or Secure Compartmented Information Facility. The government uses them at installations worldwide and regulates their security features so closely that voluminous rules have been written on how they are to be built and protected. It sits deep inside the building that houses U.S. Central Command headquarters, which is running the war in Afghanistan and which is tightly guarded by troops armed with M-16s. The building stands inside the MacDill Air Force Base perimeter, which is well guarded, too. http://www.tampatrib.com/MGA4YPZ4M4D.html ....... Maybe Wen Ho Lee sold them to a pawn shop.. From levitte at openssl.org Fri Aug 9 05:15:12 2002 From: levitte at openssl.org (Richard Levitte - VMS Whacker) Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 14:15:12 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ANNOUNCE] OpenSSL 0.9.6g released Message-ID: <20020809.141512.76578258.levitte@openssl.org> OpenSSL version 0.9.6g released =============================== OpenSSL - The Open Source toolkit for SSL/TLS http://www.openssl.org/ The OpenSSL project team is pleased to announce the release of version 0.9.6g of our open source toolkit for SSL/TLS. This new OpenSSL version is a bugfix release. The most significant changes are: o Important building fixes on Unix. o Fix crash in CSwift engine. [engine] We consider OpenSSL 0.9.6g to be the best version of OpenSSL available and we strongly recommend that users of older versions upgrade as soon as possible. OpenSSL 0.9.6g is available for download via HTTP and FTP from the following master locations (you can find the various FTP mirrors under http://www.openssl.org/source/mirror.html): o http://www.openssl.org/source/ o ftp://ftp.openssl.org/source/ [1] OpenSSL comes in the form of two distributions this time. The reasons for this is that we want to deploy the external crypto device support but don't want to have it part of the "normal" distribution just yet. The distribution containing the external crypto device support is popularly called "engine", and is considered experimental. It's been fairly well tested on Unix and flavors thereof. If run on a system with no external crypto device, it will work just like the "normal" distribution. The distribution file names are: o openssl-0.9.6g.tar.gz [normal] MD5 checksum: 515ed54165a55df83f4eb4e4e9078d3f o openssl-engine-0.9.6g.tar.gz [engine] MD5 checksum: 87cb788c99e40b6e67268ea35d1d250c The checksums were calculated using the following commands: openssl md5 < openssl-0.9.6g.tar.gz openssl md5 < openssl-engine-0.9.6g.tar.gz Yours, The OpenSSL Project Team... Mark J. Cox Ben Laurie Andy Polyakoff Ralf S. Engelschall Richard Levitte Geoff Thorpe Dr. Stephen Henson Bodo Möller Lutz Jänicke Ulf Möller --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From bram at gawth.com Fri Aug 9 14:23:34 2002 From: bram at gawth.com (Bram Cohen) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 14:23:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Thanks, Lucky, for helping to kill gnutella In-Reply-To: <20020809195532.500AD46D3@notatla.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: Antonomasia wrote: > My copy of "Peer to Peer" (Oram, O'Reilly) is out on loan but I think > Freenet and Mojo use protocols that require new users to be > contributors before they become consumers. (Leaving aside that > Gnutella seems doomed on scalability grounds.) Freenet and Mojo Nation have had serious issues in the wild, but my project, BitTorrent, is currently being used in serious deployment, and its leech resistance algorithms are proving quite robust - http://bitconjurer.org/BitTorrent/ This is a very narrow form of leech resistance, but it may be all that is needed. -Bram Cohen "Markets can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent" -- John Maynard Keynes --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From jays at panix.com Fri Aug 9 12:16:34 2002 From: jays at panix.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 15:16:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Thanks, Lucky, for helping to kill gnutella In-Reply-To: <8c25bf764b14de9e2d3d9cd24a6d49fb@aarg.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Aug 2002, AARG!Anonymous wrote: < ... /> > Not discussed in the article is the technical question of how this can > possibly work. If you issue a digital certificate on some Gnutella > client, what stops a different client, an unauthorized client, from > pretending to be the legitimate one? This is especially acute if the > authorized client is open source, as then anyone can see the cert, > see exactly what the client does with it, and merely copy that behavior. > > If only there were a technology in which clients could verify and yes, > even trust, each other remotely. Some way in which a digital certificate > on a program could actually be verified, perhaps by some kind of remote, > trusted hardware device. This way you could know that a remote system was > actually running a well-behaved client before admitting it to the net. > This would protect Gnutella from not only the kind of opportunistic > misbehavior seen today, but the future floods, attacks and DOSing which > will be launched in earnest once the content companies get serious about > taking this network down. There are many solutions at the level of "technical protocols" that solve the projection of these problems down to the low dimensional subspace of "technical problems". Some of these "technical protocols" will be part of a full system which accomplishes the desired ends. Please contact me off-list if you willing to spend some money for an implementation. Your claim, if true, would also demonstrate that no credit card payments over the Net, no apt-get style updating, no Paypal-like system, no crypto time-stamp system, etc., can exist today. > > If only... Luckily the cypherpunks are doing all they can to make sure > that no such technology ever exists. They will protect us from being able > to extend trust across the network. They will make sure that any open > network like Gnutella must forever face the challenge of rogue clients. > They will make sure that open source systems are especially vulnerable > to rogues, helping to drive these projects into closed source form. > > Be sure and send a note to the Gnutella people reminding them of all > you're doing for them, okay, Lucky? AARG!, this is again unworthy of you. You are capable of attempting to confuse and misdirect at a higher level. You might wish to emphasize that the real difficulties are at the levels where the reasons for the small usage of GNUPG lie. That really the "technical" details of the TCPA/Palladium system hardly matter. What TCPA/Palladium will allow is the provision to the masses of even more powerful brews of fantasy, game playing, advertising, etc.. And that there will be a small number of hobbyists who use the "unprotected ports of TCPA/Palladium" for their own limited experiments/amusements/etc.. The real point of TCPA/Palladium is that a "locus of trust", seemingly guaranteed by the Powers That Be, will be created, and that the existence of this same locus, under the facies of "locus of dealmaking/lawyering", will so reassure the Infotainment Arm of the Englobulators that the Arm will unleash its extraordinary forces to build and sell ever more entrancing Palaces of Dreams. The "unprotected ports" will allow a mostly self-supporting farm team system which will function without much direct oversight and little outlay of money by Englobulator Central or any of the Arms. The limited freedom of the Farm System, with its convenient pull strings, for the cases where something large and not controlled by Those Who Know Best takes off, will be a powerful lure to up and coming future Talent, who, when the time comes, may be Signed, without today's confusing and annoying possibility of continued independence. Indeed, the EULA of every system might have a section which binds users who display Marketable Things to an automatic Arbitration of Contract. oo--JS. From alex18015 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 9 12:30:10 2002 From: alex18015 at hotmail.com (Alex) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 15:30:10 -0400 Subject: Make $50,000 or more in 90 days just sending e-mails Message-ID: Dear Friend, You can earn a lot of money in the next 90 days sending e-mail. Seem impossible? Is there a catch? NO, there is no catch; just send your e-mails and be on your way to financial freedom. Basically, I send out as many of these e-mails as I can, then people send me cash in the mail for information that I just e-mail back to them. Everyday, I make a three minute drive to my P.O. Box knowing that there are at least a few hundred dollars waiting for me. And the best part, IT IS COMPLETELY LEGAL. Just read the next few paragraphs and see what you think. If you like what you read, great! 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Here are two primary methods of building your downline: METHOD #1: SENDING BULK E-MAIL Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we'll assume you and all those involved send out only 2,000 programs each. Let's also assume that the mailing receives a 0.5% response. Using a good list, the response could be much better. Also, many people will send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000. But continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs. With a 0.5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1. Those 10 people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000. Out of those 0.5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2. Those 100 mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000. The 0.5% response to that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3. Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each for a 2,000,000 total. The 0.5% response to that is I 0,000 orders for REPORT #4. That amounts to 10,000 each of $5 bills for you in CASH MONEY! Then think about level five! That's $500,000 alone! Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5,000+ $50,000 + $500,000 for a total of $555,550!!! REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF THE 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE, OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF 2,000. Believe me, many people will do just that and more! REPORT #2 will show you the best methods for bulk e-mailing, and e-mail software. METHOD #2 - PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET 1. Advertising on the Net is very, very inexpensive, and there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise. Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it works. Assume your goal is to get ONLY 10 people to participate on your first level. Placing a lot of FREE ads on the internet will EASILY get a larger response. Also assume that everyone else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 downline members. Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results below: 1st level-your 10 members with $5 ....... $50 2nd level-10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100) ....... $500 3rd level-10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000)....... $5,000 4th level-10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10k) ....... $50,000 5th level-10 members from those 10,000 ($5 x 100k) ....... $500,000 THIS TOTALS - $555,550 Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only recruit 10 people each. Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20 people to participate! Most people get 100's of participants. THINK ABOUT IT! For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the report they ordered. THAT'S IT! ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS! This will guarantee that the e-mail THEY send out with YOUR name and address on it will be prompt because they can't advertise until they receive the report! AVAILABLE REPORTS *** Order Each REPORT by NUMBER, AND NAME *** * ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH (U.S. CURRENCY) FOR EACH REPORT. CHECKS NOT ACCEPTED * - ALWAYS SEND YOUR ORDER VIA FIRST CLASS MAIL - Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two sheets of paper (SO THAT THE BILL CAN'T BE SEEN AGAINST LIGHT) On one of those sheets of paper include: (a) the number & name of the report you are ordering, (b) your e-mail address, and (c) your name & postal address (in case your e-mail provider encounters problems). PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW: REPORT #1 "The Insiders Guide to Advertizing for Free on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #1 FROM: Alex AuYeung 231 E Morton St. Bethlehem, PA 18015 USA REPORT #2 "The Insiders Guide to Sending Bulk Email on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #2 FROM: Wendy Anderson 23 Angus Lane Riverview, New Brunswick Canada E1B 5M2 REPORT #3 "The Secrets to Multilevel Marketing on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #3 FROM: Randy Dillard P.O. Box 8 Osprey, FL 34229 USA REPORT #4 'How to become a Millionaire utilizing the Power of Multilevel Marketing and the Internet" ORDER REPORT #4 FROM: Carla Brown P.O. Box 39093 Sarasota, FL 34238 USA REPORT #5 "How to Send One Million E-Mails for Free." ORDER REPORT #5 FROM: Glynn Schmidt P.O. Box 19424 Sarasota, FL 34276 USA About 50,000 new people get online every month! ******* TIPS FOR SUCCESS ******* * TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS! Be prompt, professional, and follow the directions accurately. * Send for the five reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when the orders start coming in. When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested product/report. * ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE. * Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the instructions exactly, your results WILL BE SUCCESSFUL! * ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED! ******* YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES ******* Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: Start posting ads as soon as you mail off for the reports! By the time you start receiving orders, your reports will be in your mailbox! For now, something simple, such as posting on message boards something to the effect of "Would you like to know how to earn $50,000 working out of your house with NO initial investment? Email me with the keywords "more info" to find out how. And, when they email you, send them this report in response! If you don't receive 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT#2. If you don't, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list you are placed in front of a DIFFERENT report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. If you want to generate more income, send another batch of e-mails or continue placing ads and start the whole process again! There is no limit to the income you will generate from this business! Before you make your decision as to whether or not you participate in this program, answer one question ... DO YOU WANT TO CHANGE YOUR LIFE? If the answer is yes, please look at the following facts about this program: 1. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST ANYTHING TO PRODUCE! 2. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST ANYTHING TO SHIP! 3. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST YOU ANYTHING TO ADVERTISE! 4. YOU ARE UTILIZING THE POWER OF THE INTERNET AND THE POWER OF MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING TO DISTRIBUTE YOUR PRODUCT ALL OVER THE WORLD! 5. YOUR ONLY EXPENSES OTHER THAN YOUR INITIAL $25 INVESTMENT IS YOUR TIME! 6. VIRTUALLY ALL OF THE INCOME YOU GENERATE FROM THIS PROGRAM IS PURE PROFIT! 7. THIS PROGRAM WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER. ******* TESTIMONIALS******* This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't work and you'll lose a lot of potential income. I'm living proof that it works. It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with little cost to you. If you do choose to participate, follow the program exactly, and you'll be on your way to financial security. -Steven Bardfield, Portland, OR My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody, and I live in Chicago, IL. I am a cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received the program I grumbled to Jody about receiving "junk mail." I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I 'knew' it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old 'I told you so' on her when the thing didn't work... well, the laugh was on me! Within two weeks she had received over 50 responses. Within 45 days she had received over $147,200 in $5 bills! I was shocked! I was sure that I had it all figured and that it wouldn't work. I AM a believer now. I have joined Jody in her "hobby. " I did have seven more years until retirement, but I think of the 'rat race,' and it's not for me. We owe it all to MLM. -Mitchell Wolf MD., Chicago, IL. The. main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount of money in a short time. I was approached several times before 1 checked this out. I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment I received $36,470.00 in the first 14 weeks, with money still coming in. -Charles Morris, Esq. Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back. Boy, was I surprised when I found my medium- size post office box crammed with orders! For awhile, it got so overloaded that I had to start picking up my mail at the window. I'll make more money this year than any 10 years of my life before. The nice thing about this deal is that it doesn't matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return. -Paige Willis, Des Moines, IA I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed another program ... 11 months passed then it came ... I didn't delete this one! ... I made. more than $41,000 on the first try!! -Violet Wilson, Johnstown, PA This is my third time to participate in this plan. We have quit our jobs, and will soon buy a home on the beach and live off the interest on our money. The only way on earth that this plan will work for you is if you do it. For your sake, and for your family's sake don't pass up this golden opportunity. Good luck and happy spending! -Kerry Ford, Centerport, NY IT IS UP TO YOU NOW! Take 5 minutes to Change Your Future! ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM! FOR YOUR INFORMATION: If you need help with starting a business, registering a business name, learning how income tax is handled, etc., contact your local office of the Small Business Administration (a Federal agency) 1(800) 827-5722 for free help and answers to questions. Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via telephone and free seminars about business tax requirements. Under Bill S1618 Title HI passed by the 105th US Congress this letter cannot be considered spam as long as the sender includes contact information and a method of removal. This is a one time e-mail transmission. No request for removal is necessary. To remove (even though this is not necessary) press alex18015 at hotmail.com STOP! If you never read another e-mail PLEASE take a moment to read this one. This really is worth your valuable time. Even if you never got involved in the program, the reports themselves are well worth the money. They can help you start and advertise ANY business on the internet. That is, these reports stand alone and are beneficial to anyone wishing to do business on the internet. At the very least PRINT THIS OUT NOW to read later if you are pressed for time. From remailer at aarg.net Fri Aug 9 16:10:08 2002 From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 16:10:08 -0700 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Adam Back writes a very thorough analysis of possible consequences of the amazing power of the TCPA/Palladium model. He is clearly beginning to "get it" as far as what this is capable of. There is far more to this technology than simple DRM applications. In fact Adam has a great idea for how this could finally enable selling idle CPU cycles while protecting crucial and sensitive business data. By itself this could be a "killer app" for TCPA/Palladium. And once more people start thinking about how to exploit the potential, there will be no end to the possible applications. Of course his analysis is spoiled by an underlying paranoia. So let me ask just one question. How exactly is subversion of the TPM a greater threat than subversion of your PC hardware today? How do you know that Intel or AMD don't already have back doors in their processors that the NSA and other parties can exploit? Or that Microsoft doesn't have similar backdoors in its OS? And similarly for all the other software and hardware components that make up a PC today? In other words, is this really a new threat? Or are you unfairly blaming TCPA for a problem which has always existed and always will exist? From remailer at aarg.net Fri Aug 9 17:15:19 2002 From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 17:15:19 -0700 Subject: TCPA/Palladium -- likely future implications Message-ID: <09128eee2dde41bc96cae43940d56ab1@aarg.net> I want to follow up on Adam's message because, to be honest, I missed his point before. I thought he was bringing up the old claim that these systems would "give the TCPA root" on your computer. Instead, Adam is making a new point, which is a good one, but to understand it you need a true picture of TCPA rather than the false one which so many cypherpunks have been promoting. Earlier Adam offered a proposed definition of TCPA/Palladium's function and purpose: > "Palladium provides an extensible, general purpose programmable > dongle-like functionality implemented by an ensemble of hardware and > software which provides functionality which can, and likely will be > used to expand centralised control points by OS vendors, Content > Distrbuters and Governments." IMO this is total bullshit, political rhetoric that is content-free compared to the one I offered: : Allow computers separated on the internet to cooperate and share data : and computations such that no one can get access to the data outside : the limitations and rules imposed by the applications. It seems to me that my definition is far more useful and appropriate in really understanding what TCPA/Palladium are all about. Adam, what do you think? If we stick to my definition, you will come to understand that the purpose of TCPA is to allow application writers to create closed spheres of trust, where the application sets the rules for how the data is handled. It's not just DRM, it's Napster and banking and a myriad other applications, each of which can control its own sensitive data such that no one can break the rules. At least, that's the theory. But Adam points out a weak spot. Ultimately applications trust each other because they know that the remote systems can't be virtualized. The apps are running on real hardware which has real protections. But applications know this because the hardware has a built-in key which carries a certificate from the manufacturer, who is called the TPME in TCPA. As the applications all join hands across the net, each one shows his cert (in effect) and all know that they are running on legitimate hardware. So the weak spot is that anyone who has the TPME key can run a virtualized TCPA, and no one will be the wiser. With the TPME key they can create their own certificate that shows that they have legitimate hardware, when they actually don't. Ultimately this lets them run a rogue client that totally cheats, disobeys all the restrictions, shows the user all of the data which is supposed to be secret, and no one can tell. Furthermore, if people did somehow become suspicious about one particular machine, with access to the TPME key the eavesdroppers can just create a new virtual TPM and start the fraud all over again. It's analogous to how someone with Verisign's key could masquerade as any secure web site they wanted. But it's worse because TCPA is almost infinitely more powerful than PKI, so there is going to be much more temptation to use it and to rely on it. Of course, this will be inherently somewhat self-limiting as people learn more about it, and realize that the security provided by TCPA/Palladium, no matter how good the hardware becomes, will always be limited to the political factors that guard control of the TPME keys. (I say keys because likely more than one company will manufacture TPM's. Also in TCPA there are two other certifiers: one who certifies the motherboard and computer design, and the other who certifies that the board was constructed according to the certified design. The NSA would probably have to get all 3 keys, but this wouldn't be that much harder than getting just one. And if there are multiple manufacturers then only 1 key from each of the 3 categories is needed.) To protect against this, Adam offers various solutions. One is to do crypto inside the TCPA boundary. But that's pointless, because if the crypto worked, you probably wouldn't need TCPA. Realistically most of the TCPA applications can't be cryptographically protected. "Computing with encrypted instances" is a fantasy. That's why we don't have all those secure applications already. Another is to use a web of trust to replace or add to the TPME certs. Here's a hint. Webs of trust don't work. Either they require strong connections, in which case they are too sparse, or they allow weak connections, in which case they are meaningless and anyone can get in. I have a couple of suggestions. One early application for TCPA is in closed corporate networks. In that case the company usually buys all the computers and prepares them before giving them to the employees. At that time, the company could read out the TPM public key and sign it with the corporate key. Then they could use that cert rather than the TPME cert. This would protect the company's sensitive data against eavesdroppers who manage to virtualize their hardware. For the larger public network, the first thing I would suggest is that the TPME key ought to be in hardware, so it can't be given out freely. Of course the NSA could still come in and get their virtual-TPM keys signed one at a time. So the next step is that the device holding the TPME key must be managed in a high security environment. This may be difficult, given the need to sign potentially thousands of TPM keys a day, but I think it has to be done. I want to see watchdogs from the EFF and a lot of other groups sitting there 24 hours a day watching over the device. Remember how Clipper was going to use a vault, split keys and all this elaborate precautions? We need at least that much security. Think about it: this one innocuous little box holding the TPME key could ultimately be the root of trust for the entire world. IMO we should spare no expense in guarding it and making sure it is used properly. With enough different interest groups keeping watch, we should be able to keep it from being used for anything other than its defined purpose. From jamesd at echeque.com Fri Aug 9 18:21:44 2002 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 18:21:44 -0700 Subject: TCPA/Palladium -- likely future implications In-Reply-To: <09128eee2dde41bc96cae43940d56ab1@aarg.net> Message-ID: <3D540838.25514.251A3CE@localhost> -- On 9 Aug 2002 at 17:15, AARG! Anonymous wrote: > to understand it you need a true picture of TCPA rather than the > false one which so many cypherpunks have been promoting. As TCPA is currently vaporware, projections of what it will be, and how it will be used are judgments, and are not capable of being true or false, though they can be plausible or implausible. Even with the best will in the world, and I do not think the people behind this have the best will in the world, there is an inherent conflict between tamper resistance and general purpose programmability. To prevent me from getting at the bits as they are sent to my sound card or my video card, the entire computer, not just the dongle, has to be somewhat tamper resistant, which is going to make the entire computer somewhat less general purpose and programmable, thus less useful. The people behind TCPA might want to do something more evil than you say they want to do, if they want to do what you say they want to do they might be prevented by law enforcement which wants something considerably more far reaching and evil, and if they want to do it, and law enforcement refrains from reaching out and taking hold of their work, they still may be unable to do it for technical reasons. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG D7ZUyyAS+7CybaH0GT3tHg1AkzcF/LVYQwXbtqgP 2HBjGwLqIOW1MEoFDnzCH6heRfW1MNGv1jXMIvtwb From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Fri Aug 9 10:43:05 2002 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 18:43:05 +0100 Subject: Challenge to TCPA/Palladium detractors References: <200208072113.g77LDaC17060@gungnir.fnal.gov> <3D5378ED.9941.21E6F6@localhost> Message-ID: <3D53FF29.4A4959E0@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> "James A. Donald" wrote: > > -- > On Wed, 7 Aug 2002, Matt Crawford wrote: > > > Unless the application author can predict the exact output of > > > the compilers, he can't issue a signature on the object code. > > > The > > On 9 Aug 2002 at 10:48, Eugen Leitl wrote: > > Same version of compiler on same source using same build > > produces identical binaries. > > This has not been my experience. Nor anyone else's If only because the exact image you depends on a hell of a lot of programs & libraries. Does anyone expect /Microsoft/ of all software suppliers to provide consistent versioning and reproducible or predictable software environments? These are the people who brought us "DLL Hell". These are the people who fell into the MDAC versioning fiasco. Ken From gmorsyalesyf at hotmail.com Sat Aug 10 04:51:45 2002 From: gmorsyalesyf at hotmail.com (Kay Hoag) Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 18:51:45 -1700 Subject: See YOUR CREDIT improve Online in Real Time! 11695 Message-ID: <00004c6802ac$000004c8$00002f6f@mx14.hotmail.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2679 bytes Desc: not available URL: From eresrch at eskimo.com Fri Aug 9 19:03:38 2002 From: eresrch at eskimo.com (Mike Rosing) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 19:03:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TCPA ad nauseum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Aug 2002, AARG! Anonymous wrote: > Of course his analysis is spoiled by an underlying paranoia. So let me > ask just one question. How exactly is subversion of the TPM a greater > threat than subversion of your PC hardware today? How do you know that > Intel or AMD don't already have back doors in their processors that > the NSA and other parties can exploit? Or that Microsoft doesn't have > similar backdoors in its OS? And similarly for all the other software > and hardware components that make up a PC today? > > In other words, is this really a new threat? Or are you unfairly blaming > TCPA for a problem which has always existed and always will exist? The difference is that *anyone* can see what goes on inside an Intel or AMD processor. Only the key holder of the TPM can see inside the "protected" code space. You can't put back doors into the code now because the code is visible to all users. The purpose of crypto is to hide information even tho the attacker can see all the machinery work. If you don't want to have the machinery visible, then use a sealed system (like smart card). Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike From eresrch at eskimo.com Fri Aug 9 19:10:27 2002 From: eresrch at eskimo.com (Mike Rosing) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 19:10:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TCPA/Palladium -- likely future implications In-Reply-To: <09128eee2dde41bc96cae43940d56ab1@aarg.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Aug 2002, AARG! Anonymous wrote: > : Allow computers separated on the internet to cooperate and share data > : and computations such that no one can get access to the data outside > : the limitations and rules imposed by the applications. > > It seems to me that my definition is far more useful and appropriate in > really understanding what TCPA/Palladium are all about. Adam, what do > you think? Just because you can string words together and form a definition doesn't make it realizable. Once data is in the clear it can be copied, and no rules can change that. Either the data is available to the user, and they can copy it - or the data is not available to the user, and there's nothing they can do when their machine does somebody elses calculations. > I have a couple of suggestions. One early application for TCPA is in > closed corporate networks. In that case the company usually buys all > the computers and prepares them before giving them to the employees. > At that time, the company could read out the TPM public key and sign > it with the corporate key. Then they could use that cert rather than > the TPME cert. This would protect the company's sensitive data against > eavesdroppers who manage to virtualize their hardware. And guess what? I can buy that today! I don't need either TCPA or Palladium. So why do we need TCPA? > Think about it: this one innocuous little box holding the TPME key could > ultimately be the root of trust for the entire world. IMO we should > spare no expense in guarding it and making sure it is used properly. > With enough different interest groups keeping watch, we should be able > to keep it from being used for anything other than its defined purpose. Man, I want the stuff you are smoking! One attack point is the root of trust for the whole world!!???!!! Take another hit dude, and make sure you see lots of colors too. Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike From remailer at aarg.net Fri Aug 9 19:30:09 2002 From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG!Anonymous) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 19:30:09 -0700 Subject: Challenge to TCPA/Palladium detractors Message-ID: <9a9b042036dae4dc85cd793e52375ec5@aarg.net> Re the debate over whether compilers reliably produce identical object (executable) files: The measurement and hashing in TCPA/Palladium will probably not be done on the file itself, but on the executable content that is loaded into memory. For Palladium it is just the part of the program called the "trusted agent". So file headers with dates, compiler version numbers, etc., will not be part of the data which is hashed. The only thing that would really break the hash would be changes to the compiler code generator that cause it to create different executable output for the same input. This might happen between versions, but probably most widely used compilers are relatively stable in that respect these days. Specifying the compiler version and build flags should provide good reliability for having the executable content hash the same way for everyone. --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From adam at cypherspace.org Fri Aug 9 12:11:15 2002 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 20:11:15 +0100 Subject: Signing as one member of a set of keys In-Reply-To: ; from anonymous@remailer.havenco.com on Fri, Aug 09, 2002 at 03:52:56AM +0000 References: Message-ID: <20020809201115.A643604@exeter.ac.uk> Very nice. Nice plausible set of candidate authors also: pub 1022/5AC7B865 1992/12/01 loki at obscura.com pub 1024/2B48F6F5 1996/04/10 Ian Goldberg pub 1024/97558A1D 1994/01/10 Pr0duct Cypher pub 1024/2719AF35 1995/05/13 Ben Laurie pub 1024/58214C37 1992/09/08 Hal Finney <74076.1041 at compuserve.com> pub 1024/C8002BD1 1997/03/04 Eric Young pub 1024/FBBB8AB1 1994/05/07 Colin Plumb Wonder if we can figure out who is most likely author based on coding style from such a small set. It has (8 char) TABs but other wise BSD indentation style (BSD normally 4 spaces). Also someone who likes triply indirected pointers ***blah in there. Has local variables inside even *if code blocks* eg, inside main() (most people avoid that, preferring to declare variables at the top of a function, and historically I think some older gcc / gdb couldn't debug those variables if I recall). Very funky use of goto in getpgppkt, hmmm. Somewhat concise coding and variable names. Off the cuff guess based on coding without looking at samples of code to remind, probably Colin or Ian. Of course (Lance Cottrell/Ian Goldberg/Pr0duct Cypher/Ben Laurie/Hal Finney/Eric Young/Colin Plumb) possibly deviated or mimicked one of their coding styles. Kind of interesting to see a true nym in there also. Also the Cc -- Coderpunks lives? I think the Cc coderpunks might be a clue also, I think some of these people would know it died. I think that points more at Colin. Other potential avenue might be implementation mistake leading to failure of the scheme to robustly make undecidable which of the set is the true author, given alpha code. Adam On Fri, Aug 09, 2002 at 03:52:56AM +0000, Anonymous User wrote: > This program can be used by anonymous contributors to release partial > information about their identity - they can show that they are someone > from a list of PGP key holders, without revealing which member of the > list they are. Maybe it can help in the recent controvery over the > identity of anonymous posters. It's a fairly low-level program that > should be wrapped in a nicer UI. I'll send a couple of perl scripts > later that make it easier to use. From remailer at aarg.net Fri Aug 9 20:25:40 2002 From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 20:25:40 -0700 Subject: Thanks, Lucky, for helping to kill gnutella Message-ID: Several people have objected to my point about the anti-TCPA efforts of Lucky and others causing harm to P2P applications like Gnutella. Eric Murray wrote: > Depending on the clients to "do the right thing" is fundamentally > stupid. Bran Cohen agrees: > Before claiming that the TCPA, which is from a deployment standpoint > vaporware, could help with gnutella's scaling problems, you should > probably learn something about what gnutella's problems are first. The > truth is that gnutella's problems are mostly that it's a screamer > protocol, and limiting which clients could connect would do nothing to fix > that. I will just point out that it was not my idea, but rather that Salon said that the Gnutella developers were considering moving to authorized clients. According to Eric, those developers are "fundamentally stupid." According to Bram, the Gnutella developers don't understand their own protocol, and they are supporting an idea which will not help. Apparently their belief that clients like Qtrax are hurting the system is totally wrong, and keeping such clients off the system won't help. I can't help believing the Gnutella developers know more about their own system than Bram and Eric do. If they disagree, their argument is not with me, but with the Gnutella people. Please take it there. Ant chimes in: > My copy of "Peer to Peer" (Oram, O'Reilly) is out on loan but I think Freenet > and Mojo use protocols that require new users to be contributors before they > become consumers. Pete Chown echoes: > If you build a protocol which allows selfish behaviour, you have done > your job badly. Preventing selfish behaviour in distributed systems is > not easy, but that is the problem we need to solve. It would be a good > discussion for this list. As far as Freenet and MojoNation, we all know that the latter shut down, probably in part because the attempted traffic-control mechanisms made the whole network so unwieldy that it never worked. At least in part this was also due to malicious clients, according to the analysis at http://www.cs.rice.edu/Conferences/IPTPS02/188.pdf. And Freenet has been rendered inoperative in recent months by floods. No one knows whether they are fundamental protocol failings, or the result of selfish client strategies, or calculated attacks by the RIAA and company. Both of these are object lessons in the difficulties of successful P2P networking in the face of arbitrary client attacks. Some people took issue with the personal nature of my criticism: > Your personal vendetta against Lucky is very childish. > This sort of attack doesn't do your position any good. Right, as if my normal style has been so effective. Not one person has given me the least support in my efforts to explain the truth about TCPA and Palladium. Anyway, maybe I was too personal in singling out Lucky. He is far from the only person who has opposed TCPA. But Lucky, in his slides at http://www.cypherpunks.to, claims that TCPA's designers had as one of their objectives "To meet the operational needs of law enforcement and intelligence services" (slide 2); and to give privileged access to user's computers to "TCPA members only" (slide 3); that TCPA has an OS downloading a "serial number revocation list" (SNRL) which he has provided no evidence for whatsoever (slide 14); that it loads an "initial list of undesirable applications" which is apparently another of his fabrications (slide 15); that TCPA applications on startup load both a serial number revocation list but also a document revocation list, again a completely unsubstantiated claim (slide 19); that apps then further verify that spyware is running, another fabrication (slide 20). He then implies that the DMCA applies to reverse engineering when it has an explicit exemption for that (slide 23); that the maximum possible sentence of 5 years is always applied (slide 24); that TCPA is intended to: defeat the GPL, enable information invalidation, facilitate intelligence collection, meet law enforcement needs, and more (slide 27); that only signed code will boot in TCPA, contrary to the facts (slide 28). He provides more made-up details about the mythical DRL (slide 31); more imaginary details about document IDs, information monitoring and invalidation to support law enforcement and intelligence needs, none of which has anything to do with TCPA (slide 32-33). As apparent support for these he provides an out-of-context quote[1] from a Palladium manager, who if you read the whole article was describing their determination to keep the system open (slide 34). He repeats the unfounded charge that the Hollings bill would mandate TCPA, when there's nothing in the bill that says such a thing (slide 35); and he exaggerates the penalties in that bill by quoting the maximum limits as if they are the default (slide 36). Lucky can provide all this misinformation, all under the pretence, mind you, that this *is* TCPA. He was educating the audience, mostly people who were completely unfamiliar with the system other than some vague rumors. And this is what he presents, a tissue of lies and fabrications and unfounded sensationalism. Don't forget, TCPA and Palladium were designed by real people. In making these charges, Lucky is not just talking about a standard, he is talking about its authors. He is saying that those people were attempting to serve intelligence needs, to make sure that people had to run spyware, to close down the system so it could keep "undesirable" applications off. He is accusing the designers of far worse than anything I have said about him. He is basically saying that they are striving to bring about a technological police state. And yet, no one (other than me, of course) dared to criticize Lucky for these claims. He can say whatever he wants, be as outrageous as he wants, and no one says a thing. I don't know whether everyone agrees with him, or is simply unwilling to risk criticism by departing from the groupthink which is so universal around here. I asked Eric Murray, who knows something about TCPA, what he thought of some of the more ridiculous claims in Ross Anderson's FAQ (like the SNRL), and he didn't respond. I believe it is because he is unwilling to publicly take a position in opposition to such a famous and respected figure. But anyway, maybe I was too personal in criticizing Lucky. Tell you what. I'll apologize to Lucky as soon as he apologizes to the designers of TCPA for the fabrications in his slide show. Deal? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [1] We are talking to the government now, and maybe this is where we get some advantage from having a broad industry initiative. Our fundamental goal is "let's do the right thing." We have pretty strong feelings about what the right thing is on terms of making sure that things are truly anonymous and that key escrow kinds of things don't happen. But there ARE governments in the world, and not just the U.S. Government. http://www.techweb.com/index/news/Hardwa...WB19980901S0016/INW20020626S0007 From rah at shipwright.com Fri Aug 9 17:38:28 2002 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 20:38:28 -0400 Subject: Thanks, Lucky, for helping to kill gnutella (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 1:03 AM +0200 on 8/10/02, Some anonymous, and now apparently innumerate, idiot in my killfile got himself forwarded to Mr. Leitl's cream of cypherpunks list: > They will protect us from being able > to extend trust across the network. As Dan Geer and Carl Ellison have reminded us on these lists and elsewhere, there is no such thing as "trust", on the net, or anywhere else. There is only risk. Go learn some finance before you attempt to abstract emotion into the quantifiable. Actual numerate, thinking, people gave up on that nonsense in the 1970's, and the guys who proved the idiocy of "trust", showing, like LaGrange said to Napoleon about god, that the capital markets "had no need that hypothesis, Sire" ended up winning a Nobel for that proof the 1990's*. Cheers, RAH *The fact that Scholes and Merton eventually ended up betting on equity volatility like it was actually predictable and got their asses handed to them for their efforts is beside the point, of course. :-). -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From ant at notatla.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 9 12:55:32 2002 From: ant at notatla.demon.co.uk (Antonomasia) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 20:55:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: Thanks, Lucky, for helping to kill gnutella Message-ID: <20020809195532.500AD46D3@notatla.demon.co.uk> From: AARG!Anonymous > An article on Salon this morning (also being discussed on slashdot), > http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2002/08/08/gnutella_developers/print.html, > discusses how the file-trading network Gnutella is being threatened by > misbehaving clients. In response, the developers are looking at limiting > the network to only authorized clients: > They intend to do this using digital signatures, and there is precedent > for this in past situations where there have been problems: > > Alan Cox, .... "Years and years ago this came up with a game > If only there were a technology in which clients could verify and yes, > Be sure and send a note to the Gnutella people reminding them of all > you're doing for them, okay, Lucky? Now that is resorting to silly accusation. My copy of "Peer to Peer" (Oram, O'Reilly) is out on loan but I think Freenet and Mojo use protocols that require new users to be contributors before they become consumers. (Leaving aside that Gnutella seems doomed on scalability grounds.) Likewise the WAN shooter games have (partially) defended against cheats by making the client hold no authoritative data and by disqualifying those that send impossible traffic. (Excluding wireframe graphics cards is another matter.) If I were a serious gamer I'd want 2 communities - one for plain clients to match gaming skills and another for "cheat all you like" contests to match both gaming and programming skills. If the Gnuts need to rework the protocol they should do so. My objection to this TCPA/palladium thing is that it looks aimed at ending ordinary computing. If the legal scene were radically different this wouldn't be causing nearly so much fuss. Imagine: - a DoJ that can enforce monopoly law - copyright that expires in reasonable time (5 years for s/w ? 15 years for books,films,music... ?) - fair use and first sale are retained - no concept of indirect infringement (e.g. selling marker pens) - criminal and civil liability for incorrectly barring access in DRM - hacking is equally illegal for everybody - no restriction on making and distributing/selling any h/w,s/w If Anonymous presents Gnutella for serious comparison with the above issues I say he's looking in the wrong end of his telescope. -- ############################################################## # Antonomasia ant notatla.demon.co.uk # # See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/ # ############################################################## --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From Pete.Chown at skygate.co.uk Fri Aug 9 12:56:25 2002 From: Pete.Chown at skygate.co.uk (Pete Chown) Date: 09 Aug 2002 20:56:25 +0100 Subject: Thanks, Lucky, for helping to kill gnutella In-Reply-To: <8c25bf764b14de9e2d3d9cd24a6d49fb@aarg.net> References: <8c25bf764b14de9e2d3d9cd24a6d49fb@aarg.net> Message-ID: <1028922985.1918.255.camel@yeltsin.mthink> Anonymous wrote: > ... the file-trading network Gnutella is being threatened by > misbehaving clients. In response, the developers are looking at limiting > the network to only authorized clients: This is the wrong solution. One of the important factors in the Internet's growth was that the IETF exercised enough control, but not too much. So HTTP is standardised, which allows (theoretically) any browser to talk to any web server. At the same time the higher levels are not standardised, so someone who has an idea for a better browser or web server is free to implement it. If you build a protocol which allows selfish behaviour, you have done your job badly. Preventing selfish behaviour in distributed systems is not easy, but that is the problem we need to solve. It would be a good discussion for this list. > Not discussed in the article is the technical question of how this can > possibly work. If you issue a digital certificate on some Gnutella > client, what stops a different client, an unauthorized client, from > pretending to be the legitimate one? Exactly. This has already happened with unauthorised AIM clients. My freedom to lie allows me to use GAIM rather than AOL's client. In this case, IMO, the ethics are the other way round. AOL seeks to use its (partial) monopoly to keep a grip on the IM market. The freedom to lie mitigates this monopoly to an extent. -- Pete --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From wolf at priori.net Fri Aug 9 21:26:37 2002 From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 21:26:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Signing as one member of a set of keys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Aug 2002, Anonymous User wrote: > This program can be used by anonymous contributors to release partial > information about their identity - they can show that they are someone > from a list of PGP key holders, without revealing which member of the > list they are. Maybe it can help in the recent controvery over the > identity of anonymous posters. It's a fairly low-level program that > should be wrapped in a nicer UI. I'll send a couple of perl scripts > later that make it easier to use. > > === Most delightful. Thank you for reminding us that Cypherpunks do indeed write code. More comments in a bit. [MW SNIP] > ++multisig v1.0 > pEsBwalpBRxWyJR8tkYm6qR27UW9IT6Vg8SlOHIsEkk04RJvoSy0cy4ISFCq6vDX > 5ub6c+MYi/UoyR6tI7oqpMu1abcXWm2DkfDiCsD6jQddVkiiYdG7Bih8JWdWmp5l > AgzqUoz14671/ezmWSrPNsTNKV96+ZLEanZsqfkpQcnZpLkWVpJzQFe0VgDQ64b2 > +e2efrbknLFq0FTdX7Sh3qzAfzNYYgADmeOxDoTm9sb6T0fULf1P7mjiN2LZXuEW > m/8QvksaQi9KGa/0xN2m0heNtS1cfsTa+NJz8XYyG/tnMy7+mvI3c3lrnz+6Dpyp > pbNwaX+12VcqtfNec9faoq8RJgFxmSO/ZfMOGM8cFBQ75ZOaoBJP5ObHZ/63FFh5 > Wh5GzwJjQs0vLwpM3iF6G+IixEqAQYisUdCopP1wXCLgltDM6l7jRlXxNDj0AXQ1 > eQJolo32vemcy8Z8GAn5tpQHmJwpdzZpboWRQY53pD4mVnEMN4GBC1mhbbI2z+Oh > lPglqmmy3p4D+psNU1rlNv6yH/L0PgcuW7taVpbopjl4HLuJdWcKHJlXish3D/jb > eoQ856fYFZ/omGiO9x1D0BsnGFLZVWob4OIZRzO/Pc49VIhFy5NsV2zuozStId89 > [...] > */ That [...] you see is an artifact of the anonymous remailer you were using. Mixmaster, I believe, gives the option to truncate messages which appear to include binary encoded data. PGP messages are explicitly allowed to be sent. Immediate problem: we can't verify your signature. Short term solution: find a remailer that allows binary posting. Long term solution: perhaps contact the Mixmaster authors and ask them to explicitly allow "multisig" data? -MW- From cypherpunks at minder.net Fri Aug 9 11:50:04 2002 From: cypherpunks at minder.net (cypherpunks) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 21:50:04 +0300 Subject: TURNE ORGANiZASYONLARI iCiN KAMPANYA.. Message-ID: <200208091848.g79ImYJ07892@locust.minder.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 5224 bytes Desc: not available URL: From adam at cypherspace.org Fri Aug 9 14:13:56 2002 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 22:13:56 +0100 Subject: TCPA/Palladium -- likely future implications (Re: dangers of TCPA/palladium) In-Reply-To: <20020809041533.GP23240@zork.net>; from schoen@loyalty.org on Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 09:15:33PM -0700 References: <20020805060031.A518477@exeter.ac.uk> <200208081916.VAA02035@home.unipay.nl> <20020809041533.GP23240@zork.net> Message-ID: <20020809221356.A637432@exeter.ac.uk> On Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 09:15:33PM -0700, Seth David Schoen wrote: > Back in the Clipper days [...] "how do we know that this > tamper-resistant chip produced by Mykotronix even implements the > Clipper spec correctly?". The picture is related but has some extra wrinkles with the TCPA/Palladium attestable donglization of CPUs. - It is always the case that targetted people can have hardware attacks perpetrated against them. (Keyboard sniffers placed during court authorised break-in as FBI has used in mob case of PGP using Mafiosa [1]). - In the clipper case people didn't need to worry much if the clipper chip had malicious deviations from spec, because Clipper had an openly stated explicit purpose to implement a government backdoor -- there's no need for NSA to backdoor the explicit backdoor. But in the TCPA/Palladium case however the hardware tampering risk you identify is as you say relevant: - It's difficult for the user to verify hardware. - Also: it wouldn't be that hard to manufacture plausibly deniable implementation "mistakes" that could equate to a backdoor -- eg the random number generators used to generate the TPM/SCP private device keys. However, beyond that there is an even softer target for would-be backdoorers: - the TCPA/Palladium's hardware manufacturers endoresment CA keys. these are the keys to the virtual kingdom formed -- the virtual kingdom by the closed space within which attested applications and software agents run. So specifically let's look at the questions arising: 1. What could a hostile entity(*) do with a copy of a selection of hardware manufacturer endorsement CA private keys? ( (*) where the hostile entity candidates would be for example be secret service agencies, law enforcement or "homeland security" agencies in western countries, RIAA/MPAA in pursuit of their quest to exercise their desire to jam and DoS peer-to-peer file sharing networks, the Chinese government, Taiwanese government (they may lots of equipment right) and so on). a. Who needs to worry -- who will be targetted? Who needs to worry about this depends on how overt third-party ownership of these keys is, and hence the pool of people who would likely be targetted. If it's very covert, it would only be used plausibly deniably and only for Nat Sec / Homeland Security purposes. It if becomse overt over time -- a publicly acknowledged, but supposedly court controlled affair like Clipper, or even more widely desired by a wide-range of entities for example: keys made available to RIAA / MPAA so they can do the hacking they have been pushing for -- well then we all need to worry. To analyse the answer to question 1, we first need to think about question 2: 2. What kinds of TCPA/Palladium integrity depending "trusted" applications are likely to be built? Given the powerful (though balance of control changing) new remotely attestable security features provided by TCPA/Palladium, all kinds of remote services become possible, for example (though all to the extent of hardware tamper-resistance and belief that your attacker doesn't have access to a hardware endorsement CA private key): - general Application Service Providers (ASPs) that you don't have to trust to read your data - less traceable peer-to-peer applications - DRM applications that make a general purpose computer secure against BORA (Break Once Run Anywhere), though of course not secure against ROCA (Rip Once Copy Everywhere) -- which will surely continue to happen with ripping shifting to hardware hackers. - general purpose unreadable sandboxes to run general purpose CPU-for-rent computing farms for hire, where the sender knows you can't read his code, you can't read his input data, or his output data, or tamper with the computation. - file-sharing while robustly hiding knowledge and traceability of content even to the node serving it -- previously research question, now easy coding problem with efficient - anonymous remailers where you have more assurance that a given node is not logging and analysing the traffic being mixed by it But of course all of these distributed applications, positive and negative (depending on your view point), are limited in their assurance of their non-cryptographically assured aspects: - to the tamper resistance of the device - to the extent of the users confidence that an entity hostile to them doesn't have the endorsement CA's private key for the respective remote servers implementing the network application they are relying on and a follow-on question to question 2: 3. Will any software companies still aim for cryptographic assurance? (cryptographic assurance means you don't need to trust someone not to reverse engineer the application -- ie you can't read the data because it is encrypted with a key derived from a password that is only stored in the users head). The extended platform allows you to build new classes of applications which aren't currently buildable to cryptographic levels of assurance. eg. It allows general purpose policies to be built just by writing policy code that sits in a Trusted Agent code compartment, without having to figure out how to do split-trust (a la mixmaster chaining), or forward-secrecy or secret-sharing or any of the other funky stuff; you can just implement some policy code and it becomes so. The danger is people will use it to build applications with squishy interiors, with no cryptographic assurance. Forward-secrecy implemented only by a policy in a Trusted Agent that sets a time-limit on access. Anonymity but only in the sense that you trust the hardware isn't tampered with, etc etc. It will be really tempting because: - it's much easier: network distributed crypto protocols are relatively complex - you can build things you can't otherwise build, the are currently unsolved problems with distributed crypto protocols - even where good crypto protocols exist, people will defend not using them by claims to paranoia: "What you think the NSA has tampered with your CPU?", or just laziness, cost of implementation etc So in short probably mostly the answer will be "No", people won't still aim for cryptographic assurance. And so a big networked world of distributed applications with a very squishy and insecure interior inside the closed world will be built. The new application spaces squishy interior -- like a corporate firewall with poor to no internal security -- could be ok if you could be sure the firewall is 100% guaranteed reliable. TCPA/Palladium proponents are effectively claiming it be an air-gap grade firewall guarding the distributed closed world application spaces squishy interior. But there is a problem: there are master keys by-passing all that -- the endorsement CA's private keys. 4. What coming political battles will result? a. If TCPA/Palladium systems get built -- and it may be politically unstoppable given the power of the distributed security paradigm it opens up -- then the battle of the coming decades will center around control of access to that squishy interior. The keys that control access to the closed world are the endoresment CA private keys. b. You will see many clipper like attempts by governments attempting to make policies surrounding conditional access to that closed world: - law enforcement access to the endorsement private CA keys controlling access, so they can setup sting operations, demand that ISPs and ASPs collaborate with virtualized versions of network services so they can trace things - NSA designed protocols to allow such things, black box mediated, court order approved, split database access to hardware manufacturers private keys c. As b. progresses RIAA/MPAA will chime in protesting that: - Kazaa2 is distributing 10 exabytes a day of ripped recent release content not based on BORA (which is now somewhat harder), but on ROCA (Rip Once Copy Anywhere) as the content rippers move into hardware hacking territory - the RIAA/MPAA can't hack, spoof or jam kazaa2 with bogus content because cypherpunks have fixed the protocols using WoT, certified content, and other crypto-fu so they can't even observe who's downloading what or who's serving what - and therefore they also demand access to the closed world so they can exert their recent legal rights to hack and DDoS the file sharing networks d. Unauthorised access to the closed environment (by hacking your own hardware) will become illegal with DMCA like restrictions (if it wouldn't already be where some relation to copyright could be drawn). e. Software companies, and OS vendors will follow Microsoft's current lead into an unholy battle with highlights such as: - undocumented APIs to gain advantage over competitors, not only hardware hacking required to discover APIs, but attestation to ensure only those companies who have licensed the right to use the API can use it - incompatible file formats to lock out competition with hardware tamper resistance levels of assurance, even file formats that must have certified documents for applications to open them, so even if you had the spec you couldn't be compatible - copyright protection with software encrypted for the CPU, so you can't even audit the static code - software renting models again enforced by hardware - whole collection of 2nd generation IP "innovations" which will be built on top of such things - charge per person you share file in a given document format; - charge per format conversion f. Lucky's Documentat Revocation lists to allow governments, companies etc to to some extent after the fact control distribution of data g. Increasingly minute enforcement of repressive levels of IP tracking, and arbitrarily user hostile, fair-use eroding document viewing and use policies 5. What could be done to protect the user? a. implement cryptographic assurance inside the closed space where possible -- that way if you are targetted by someone able to get inside it you still have the same protection as now. b. use web-of-trust techniques to provide an overlay of trust on the endorsement trust. ie users endorse their own machines to say "this is my machine" this implies that either: - it's not tampered with (presuming the user himself was not a target of some attack or investigation) - or the only tamperer is the certifying user web-of-trust overlaid on the hardware endorsement helps as: - This makes the endorsement keys less useful in a covertly obtained endorsement CA private key scenario - Even if there are court authorized law enforcement access to endorsement CA private keys, or RIAA/MPAA access to endorsement CA private keys you can to the extent of your connectivity in the web of trust, better avoid using the services of rogue agents inside the closed space. c. Demand ability to audit information in-flows into trusted agents where there are unauditable out-flows; demand that this is implemented in a way which allows code under user control to audit d. Demand the ability to audit information out-flows, where there are unauditable in-flows or sensitive user data processed by the application; similarly demand that this is implemented in a way which allows code under user control to audit e. Demand cryptographically assured anonymity protection so that there are no "trusted third parties" who can link your network usage and identify you. e. Other ideas? (Other than to lobby to prevent the building or use this model). Adam -- http://www.cypherspace.org/adam/ [1] "FBI Bugs Keyboard of PGP-Using Alleged Mafioso", 6 Dec 2000, slashdot http://slashdot.org/yro/00/12/06/0255234.shtml --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From schear at lvcm.com Fri Aug 9 23:40:28 2002 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 23:40:28 -0700 Subject: Thanks, Lucky, for helping to kill gnutella In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020809231553.05d53a28@pop3.lvcm.com> At 08:25 PM 8/9/2002 -0700, AARG!Anonymous wrote: >As far as Freenet and MojoNation, we all know that the latter shut down, >probably in part because the attempted traffic-control mechanisms made >the whole network so unwieldy that it never worked. I worked there and respectfully disagree. MN never gained a foothold first and foremost because of the frequent join/leave problem. This, in turn, was a direct result of insufficient resources to address automated publication of .mp3 header data. The inability of the client SW to automatically create the header data and publish directories full of .mp3 files at each client meant users had to expend more much effort to make available their content than file-oriented P2P alternatives. This hurdle, when combined with data retention problems related to other MN deficiencies, assured that little content was available for DL. New users simply abandoned the effort when they came up empty handed. The introducer problem could probably have been solved using Usenet postings. The nature of Usenet meant it could scale and was fairly resistant legal and technical attacks. Usenet might also have served for a fallback block store but neither approach was ever carefully considered, again due to resource limitations. >At least in part >this was also due to malicious clients, according to the analysis at >http://www.cs.rice.edu/Conferences/IPTPS02/188.pdf. My experience is that the malicious client problem was not a major issue. [much deleted] >Lucky can provide all this misinformation, all under the pretence, >mind you, that this *is* TCPA. He was educating the audience, mostly >people who were completely unfamiliar with the system other than some >vague rumors. And this is what he presents, a tissue of lies and >fabrications and unfounded sensationalism. At Lucky's Defcon talk he stated that he was a participant in the development of TCPA. Can't clearly recall in what capacity he served but me recollection is it was as a reviewer. steve From remailer at remailer.xganon.com Fri Aug 9 22:10:21 2002 From: remailer at remailer.xganon.com (Anonymous) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 00:10:21 -0500 Subject: Signing as one member of a set of keys Message-ID: Here is the signature block from the "ring signature" program which got truncated. I'll try sending it through a few different anon remailers until it gets through. Replace the lines from the earlier posting starting with the "END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK" line. -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- ++multisig v1.0 pEsBwalpBRxWyJR8tkYm6qR27UW9IT6Vg8SlOHIsEkk04RJvoSy0cy4ISFCq6vDX 5ub6c+MYi/UoyR6tI7oqpMu1abcXWm2DkfDiCsD6jQddVkiiYdG7Bih8JWdWmp5l AgzqUoz14671/ezmWSrPNsTNKV96+ZLEanZsqfkpQcnZpLkWVpJzQFe0VgDQ64b2 +e2efrbknLFq0FTdX7Sh3qzAfzNYYgADmeOxDoTm9sb6T0fULf1P7mjiN2LZXuEW m/8QvksaQi9KGa/0xN2m0heNtS1cfsTa+NJz8XYyG/tnMy7+mvI3c3lrnz+6Dpyp pbNwaX+12VcqtfNec9faoq8RJgFxmSO/ZfMOGM8cFBQ75ZOaoBJP5ObHZ/63FFh5 Wh5GzwJjQs0vLwpM3iF6G+IixEqAQYisUdCopP1wXCLgltDM6l7jRlXxNDj0AXQ1 eQJolo32vemcy8Z8GAn5tpQHmJwpdzZpboWRQY53pD4mVnEMN4GBC1mhbbI2z+Oh lPglqmmy3p4D+psNU1rlNv6yH/L0PgcuW7taVpbopjl4HLuJdWcKHJlXish3D/jb eoQ856fYFZ/omGiO9x1D0BsnGFLZVWob4OIZRzO/Pc49VIhFy5NsV2zuozStId89 mAHWyZ59wWUg9UrkasOAmSd8bkGK4PxM4tWhJxoyGVHZaBHXdBl4V2H0+szRibUC OZpY9V0rkrLE5U8gmOgg/faFeInJJ09SCxtgptV8MLdzsoHXRlN1YA0Qy5NBwmuL EaGJ/iq8OLNKbVpMNqTFHccCjcUW2smduan+I9MMnNbg74dttuw1H2jAx9jbnYP4 4Nc4+TVlNAfQr3M7c4L+lfDYXSYCzN5uOHvGqOkg2+G5KCcPsaPwi2C2lC8eItti uVDqlvDylgVHaZFQIGepZ5VcDlvxYjbi8qFi9uOutfAXMfmVfoPsPPGkkigX3ypZ FLInE/vu4i3BzwYgxU0SMnv9g2R5+GhE8gqQ1x2knOo/QZ4DJnMaW4wt6wwRZPWQ YJyykW0lTD/LkmOqIeVWleXWBW8vlJ20hCP6RKMgE2tnrQBYtFwZlNW2nFPZmOqX HDvF92xHmCHRbpu/MjrxSs8ByAs4cyN77w8f1Gxph9Xcd5iKjdXmJTAs30AzE4uS UjxkAakiTtzjodYvY+fOl1ZYA2/OEGDfC73Xdib9gwD9JWEQz8sjelKIEPdqyvNH BjHTDH0VZeu3IxUFh37w2fIEehL8WrXvCoCMFnd1/bnn/qI/STXgg6as579/yBIJ nJra7Ceru4q4wUssK79T6SdOM6wcvVg96ub4UOTaPO4wYhhadCbLFpl3tPfTLceb */ From seth.johnson at realmeasures.dyndns.org Fri Aug 9 21:43:01 2002 From: seth.johnson at realmeasures.dyndns.org (Seth Johnson) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 00:43:01 -0400 Subject: Thanks, Lucky, for helping to kill gnutella References: <8c25bf764b14de9e2d3d9cd24a6d49fb@aarg.net> Message-ID: <3D5499D5.6D8F8519@RealMeasures.dyndns.org> TCPA and Palladium are content control for the masses. They are an attempt to encourage the public to confuse the public interest issues of content control with the private interest issues of privacy and security. Seth Johnson -- [CC] Counter-copyright: http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/cc/cc.html I reserve no rights restricting copying, modification or distribution of this incidentally recorded communication. Original authorship should be attributed reasonably, but only so far as such an expectation might hold for usual practice in ordinary social discourse to which one holds no claim of exclusive rights. From eugen at leitl.org Fri Aug 9 15:55:21 2002 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 00:55:21 +0200 (CEST) Subject: AARG and eugene are net.loons-why signatures of binaries always change. In-Reply-To: <20020809090110.A24161@shannon.permutation.net> Message-ID: You're being quite creative with alternative spelling and punctuation. However, if you think that provides sustainable stealth cover against a competent attacker (TLA agencies must by now be really good with linguistic forensics) you're fooling yourself. For executable binary verification it is obviously necessary to use compilers/linkers which don't write crap into the binary. Speaking of which, given the size of the code blob one could as well use handcrafted assembly. Also, using a standartized build environment is not exactly rocket science, since one can checksum ISO images, too. Platinum Group Linux would be a good name for the distro. On Fri, 9 Aug 2002, cyphrpnk wrote: > Hi all, > Its obvious that some of us here are developers and still others > have never typed make or gcc in their lives. > > > -v and -V options given to various forms of ld caused the embeddment of > version information in the binary(Sunpro does this also, AND early versions > of MSC allowed embeddment of version information also.) > The fact that most environments dont link -Bstatic and instead link > -Bdynamic means that every time you attempt to produce a binary from > 2 different systems that the dynamic link information will > be different checkout link.h link_elf.h link_aout.h in /usr/include > > > in addition MOST modern developement environments include a date field > when compiled and linked in the binary > > > > sheesh > a cypherpunk > BTW. AARG and eugene are idiots nyah nyah nyah!! From remailer at remailer.xganon.com Fri Aug 9 23:10:19 2002 From: remailer at remailer.xganon.com (Anonymous) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 01:10:19 -0500 Subject: Signing as one member of a set of keys Message-ID: <364bf85b104f607ec4c8ca3ce61ba2c8@remailer.xganon.com> Here are the perl scripts I cobbled together to put the ring signature at the end of the file, after a separator. I called the executable program from the earlier C source code "ringsig". I call these ringver and ringsign. I'm no perl hacker so these could undoubtedly be greatly improved. ringver === #! /usr/bin/perl # Usage: $0 pubkeyfile < filetoverify die("Usage: ringver pubkeyfile < filetoverify") if @ARGV != 1; $outfile = "/tmp/sigdata$$"; $sigfile = "/tmp/sigfile$$"; $separator = " \\+\\+multisig v1\\.0"; $pubfile=$ARGV[0]; -r $pubfile || die ("Error reading $pubfile"); open (OUTFILE, ">".$outfile) || die ("Unable to open $outfile for output"); open (SIGFILE, ">".$sigfile) || die ("Unable to open $sigfile for output"); # Skip leading blank lines on input file $_= while /^$/; # Save lines to outfile until separator print OUTFILE $_; while () { last if /$separator/; print OUTFILE $_; } die ("No signature found in input file") if !$_; # Save remaining lines ot sigfile print SIGFILE while ; close INFILE; close OUTFILE; close SIGFILE; open (SIG, "./ringsig -v $outfile $pubfile < $sigfile |") || die ("Error running verify program"); # Print output from program print while ; close SIG; unlink($sigfile); unlink($outfile); exit($?); ringsign === #! /usr/bin/perl # Usage: $0 filetosign pubkeyfile privkeyfile die("Usage: ringsign filetosign pubkeyfile privkeyfile > outfile") if @ARGV < 3; $outfile = "/tmp/sigdata$$"; $separator = " ++multisig v1.0"; open(INFILE, $ARGV[0]) || die ("Unable to open $ARGV[0] for input"); $pubfile=$ARGV[1]; $secfile=$ARGV[2]; -r $pubfile || die ("Error reading $pubfile"); -r $secfile || die ("Error reading $secfile"); open (OUTFILE, ">".$outfile) || die ("Unable to open $outfile for output"); # Skip leading blank lines on input file $_= while /^$/; # Save lines to outfile print OUTFILE $_; print OUTFILE $_ while ; close INFILE; close OUTFILE; # Re-open infile open(INFILE, $ARGV[0]) || die ("Unable to open $ARGV[0] for input"); open (SIG, "./ringsig -s $outfile $pubfile $secfile|") || die ("Error signing"); @sigs = ; close SIG; die ("Error from signature program") if ($?); # Output infile, separator, sig print while ; print $separator . "\n"; print @sigs; unlink($outfile); From swpteam at hotmail.com Sat Aug 10 00:53:18 2002 From: swpteam at hotmail.com (steve) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 02:53:18 -0500 Subject: FREE REPORT: Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months!!! Message-ID: <200208100753.g7A7rIpU011999@ak47.algebra.com> Steven W. Pratt Ph: 610-842-6318 233 Brandywine Rd Collegeville, PA 19426 USING THE POWER OF INTERNET, READ THE FOLLOWING MESSAGE CAREFULLY AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV: ''Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from You're home for an investment of only $25 U.S. or CANADIAN Dollars expense one time'' THANKS TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET! ================================================= BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!! Before you say ''Bull'', please read the following. This is the letter you have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the Internet, a national weekly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of this program described below, to see if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved once and for all that there are ''absolutely NO laws prohibiting the participation in the program and if people can follow the simple instructions, they are bound to make some mega bucks with only $25 out of pocket cost''. DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED; IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER. This is what one had to say: ''Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I was approached many times before but each time I passed on it. I am so glad I finally joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received total $ 610,470.00 in 21 weeks, with money still coming in''. Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey. --------------------------------------------------- ----- **** PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE **** $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$ If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months easily and comfortably, please read the following...THEN READ IT AGAIN and AGAIN!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$ FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS: **** Order all 5 reports shown on the list below. **** For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING and YOUR E- MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems. **** When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 reports. You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5 = $25.00. **** Within a few days you will receive, via e- mail, each of the 5 reports from these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it on your desk in case something happen to your computer. **** IMPORTANT __ DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each REPORT, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than what is instructed below in step '' 1 through 6 '' or you will loose out on majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you will also see how it does not work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter, it will NOT work!!! People have tried to put their friends / relatives names on all five thinking they could get all the money. But it does not work this way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and then nothing happened. So Do Not try to change anything other than what is instructed. Because if you do, it will not work for you. Remember, Honesty reaps the reward!!! 1.... After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT #5. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune. 2. Move the name & address in REPORT #4 down TO REPORT #5 3. Move the name & address in REPORT #3 down TO REPORT #4 4. Move the name & address in REPORT #2 down TO REPORT #3 5. Move the name & address in REPORT #1 down TO REPORT #2 6. Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT #1 Position. PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! ================================================= **** Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it on your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose any data. **** To assist you with marketing your business on the Internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing information, which includes how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much more. There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going: METHOD #1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY ================================================= Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we will assume you and those involved send out only 5,000 e- mails each. Let's also assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% response (the response could be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2%. Also many people will send out hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 each). Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e- Mails. With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT # 1. Those 10 people responded by sending out 5,000 e-mail each for a total of 50,000. Out of those 50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders. That's = 100 people responded and ordered REPORT # 2. Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for REPORT # 3. Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e- mails each for a total of 5 million E-mails sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for REPORT # 4. Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e- mails each for a total of 50,000,000 (50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for REPORT # 5 THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH = $500,000.00 (half million). Your total income in this example is: 1...$50 + 2...$500 + 3...$5,000 + 4...$50,000 + 5...$500,000 Grand Total = $555,550.00 NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE OUT THE WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY! --------------------------------------------------- -------- REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO. Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone, or half or even one 4th of those people mailed 100,000 e-mails each or more? There are over 150 million people on the internet worldwide and counting. Believe me, any people will do just that, and more! _________________ AVAILABLE REPORTS __________________ ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) or Canadian for each REPORT. Checks NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper. On one of those Sheets of paper write the NUMBER & the NAME of the REPORT you are ordering, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address. PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW: ================================================= REPORT #1 ''The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Net'' Order REPORT #1 from: Steven Pratt 233 Brandywine Rd Collegeville, PA 19426 __ _________________________________________________ REPORT #2 ''The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e- mail on the Net'' Hubert Fulkerson 402 East Las Palmaritas Drive Phoenix, AZ 85020-3436 _________________________________________________ REPORT #3 ''The Secret to Multilevel marketing on the Net'' Order REPORT #3 from: Glen Kelly 890 Ravenwood Ct. Biloxi, Ms. 39532 ___________________________________________________ REPORT #4 ''How to become a millionaire utilizing MLM & the Net'' Order REPORT #4 from: C Shaw P.O. 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You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which REPORT people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate from this business!!! ___________________________________________________ FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: "You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with NO RISK And JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money in the next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting REPORT after you have put your name and address in REPORT #1 and moved others to #2 ..........#5 as instructed above. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be on everyone of them. Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW! **************** MORE TESTIMONIALS ***************** --------------------------------------------------- -------- ''Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back''. ''I was surprised when I found my medium size post office box crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that it does not matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return and so big''. Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada --------------------------------------------------- -------- ''I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone else.........11 months passed then it luckily came again...... I did not delete this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the money came within 22 weeks''. Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y. --------------------------------------------------- -------- ''It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with little cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully and within 10 days the money started to come in. My first month I made $ 20, 560.00 and by the end of third month my total cash count was $ 362,840.00. Life is beautiful, Thanx to internet''. Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand --------------------------------------------------- -------- ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM! ================================================== If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C. /////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////// ONE TIME MAILING, NO NEED TO REMOVE /////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////// This message is sent in compliance of the proposed bill SECTION 301. per Section 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618. Further transmission to you by the sender of this e-mail may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply to youcansucceed at hotmail.com Steven W. Pratt Ph: 610-842-6318 (Please call if you have questions or concerns) 233 Brandywine Rd Collegeville, PA 19426 This message is not intended for residents in the State of Washington, screening of addresses has been done to the best of our technical ability. From gnu at toad.com Sat Aug 10 04:02:36 2002 From: gnu at toad.com (John Gilmore) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 04:02:36 -0700 Subject: responding to claims about TCPA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200208101102.g7AB2aq30982@new.toad.com> > I asked Eric Murray, who knows something about TCPA, what he thought > of some of the more ridiculous claims in Ross Anderson's FAQ (like the > SNRL), and he didn't respond. I believe it is because he is unwilling > to publicly take a position in opposition to such a famous and respected > figure. Many of the people who "know something about TCPA" are constrained by NDA's with Intel. Perhaps that is Eric's problem -- I don't know. (I have advised Intel about its security and privacy initiatives, under a modified NDA, for a few years now. Ross Anderson has also. Dave Farber has also. It was a win-win: I could hear about things early enough to have a shot at convincing Intel to do the right things according to my principles; they could get criticized privately rather than publicly, if they actually corrected the criticized problems before publicly announcing. They consult me less than they used to, probably because I told them too many things they didn't want to hear.) One of the things I told them years ago was that they should draw clean lines between things that are designed to protect YOU, the computer owner, from third parties; versus things that are designed to protect THIRD PARTIES from you, the computer owner. This is so consumers can accept the first category and reject the second, which, if well-informed, they will do. If it's all a mishmash, then consumers will have to reject all of it, and Intel can't even improve the security of their machines FOR THE OWNER, because of their history of "security" projects that work against the buyer's interest, such as the Pentium serial number and HDCP. TCPA began in that "protect third parties from the owner" category, and is apparently still there today. You won't find that out by reading Intel's modern public literature on TCPA, though; it doesn't admit to being designed for, or even useful for, DRM. My guess is that they took my suggestion as marketing advice rather than as a design separation issue. "Pitch all your protect-third-party products as if they are protect-the-owner products" was the opposite of what I suggested, but it's the course they (and the rest of the DRM industry) are on. E.g. see the July 2002 TCPA faq at: http://www.trustedcomputing.org/docs/TPM_QA_071802.pdf 3. Is the real "goal" of TCPA to design a TPM to act as a DRM or Content Protection device? No. The TCPA wants to increase the trust ... [blah blah blah] I believe that "No" is a direct lie. Intel has removed the first public version 0.90 of the TCPA spec from their web site, but I have copies, and many of the examples in the mention DRM, e.g.: http://www.trustedcomputing.org/docs/TCPA_first_WP.pdf (still there) This TCPA white paper says that the goal is "ubiquity". Another way to say that is monopoly. The idea is to force any other choices out of the market, except the ones that the movie & record companies want. The first "scenario" (PDF page 7) states: "For example, before making content available to a subscriber, it is likely that a service provider will need to know that the remote platform is trustworthy." http://www.trustedpc.org/home/pdf/spec0818.pdf (gone now) Even this 200-page TCPA-0.90 specification, which is carefully written to be obfuscatory and misleading, leaks such gems as: "These features encourage third parties to grant access to by the platform to information that would otherwise be denied to the platform" (page 14). "The 'protected store' feature...can hold and manipulate confidential data, and will allow the release or use of that data only in the presence of a particular combination of access rghts and software environment. ... Applications that might benefit include ... delivery of digital content (such as movies and songs)." (page 15). Of course, they can't help writing in the DRM mindset regardless of their intent to confuse us. In that July 2002 FAQ again: 9. Does TCPA certify applications and OS's that utilize TPMs? No. The TCPA has no plans to create a "certifying authority" to certify OS's or applications as "trusted". The trust model the TCPA promotes for the PC is: 1) the owner runs whatever OS or applications they want; 2) The TPM assures reliable reporting of the state of the platform; and 3) the two parties engaged in the transaction determine if the other platform is trusted for the intended transaction. "The transaction"? What transaction? They were talking about the owner getting reliable reporting on the security of their applications and OS's and -- uh -- oh yeah, buying music or video over the Internet. Part of their misleading technique has apparently been to present no clear layman's explanations of the actual workings of the technology. There's a huge gap between the appealing marketing sound bites -- or FAQ lies -- and the deliberately dry and uneducational 400-page technical specs. My own judgement is that this is probably deliberate, since if the public had an accurate 20-page document that explained how this stuff works and what it is good for, they would reject the tech instantly. Perhaps we in the community should write such a document. Lucky and Adam Back seem to be working towards it. The similar document about key-escrow (that CDT published after assembling a panel of experts including me, Whit, and Matt Blaze) was quite useful in explaining to lay people and Congressmen what was wrong with it. NSA/DoJ had trouble countering it, since it was based on the published facts, and they couldn't impugn the credentials of the authors, nor the document's internal reasoning. Intel and Microsoft and anonymous chauvanists can and should criticize such a document if we write one. That will strengthen it by eliminating any faulty reasoning or errors of public facts. But they had better bring forth new exculpating facts if they expect the authors to change their conclusions. They're free to allege that "No current Microsoft products have Document Revocation Lists", but that doesn't undermine the conclusion that their architectures make it easy to secretly implement that feature, anytime they want to. John From shamrock at cypherpunks.to Sat Aug 10 05:05:21 2002 From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 05:05:21 -0700 Subject: Signing as one member of a set of keys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00fd01c24066$34f9c060$6801a8c0@xpserver> Anonymous wrote: > > Here is the signature block from the "ring signature" program > which got truncated. I'll try sending it through a few > different anon remailers until it gets through. Replace the > lines from the earlier posting starting with the "END PGP > PUBLIC KEY BLOCK" line. I seem to still have problems with the signature block. If somebody on this list has a good copy, could you please place it on a web page and publish the URL? If nobody has a good copy, could perhaps Anonymous try a different method of posting, such as uuencoding? Thanks, --Lucky From adam at cypherspace.org Fri Aug 9 21:37:30 2002 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 05:37:30 +0100 Subject: p2p DoS resistance and network stability (Re: Thanks, Lucky, for helping to kill gnutella) In-Reply-To: ; from remailer@aarg.net on Fri, Aug 09, 2002 at 08:25:40PM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20020810053730.A640918@exeter.ac.uk> On Fri, Aug 09, 2002 at 08:25:40PM -0700, AARG!Anonymous wrote: > Several people have objected to my point about the anti-TCPA efforts of > Lucky and others causing harm to P2P applications like Gnutella. The point that a number of people made is that what is said in the article is not workable: clearly you can't ultimately exclude chosen clients on open computers due to reverse-engineering. (With TCPA/Palladium remote attestation you probably could so exclude competing clients, but this wasn't what was being talked about). The client exclusion plan is also particularly unworkable for gnutella because some of the clients are open-source, and the protocol is (now since original reverse engineering from nullsoft client) also open. With closed-source implementations there is some obfuscation barrier that can be made: Kazaa/Morpheus did succeed in frustrating competing clients due to it's closed protocols and unpublished encryption algorithm. At one point an open source group reverse-engineered the encryption algorithm, and from there the contained kazaa protocols, and built an interoperable open-source client giFT http://gift.sourceforge.net, but then FastTrack promptly changed the unpublished encryption algorithm to another one and then used remote code upgrade ability to "upgrade" all of the clients. Now the open-source group could counter-strike if they had particularly felt motivated to. For example they could (1) reverse-engineer the new unpublished encryption algorithm, and (2) the remote code upgrade, and then (3) do their own forced upgrade to an open encryption algorithm and (4) disable further forced upgrades. (giFT instead after the "ugrade" attack from FastTrack decided to implement their own open protocol "openFT" instead and compete. It also includes a general bridge between different file-sharing networks, in a somewhat gaim like way, if you are familiar with gaim.) > [Freenet and Mojo melt-downs/failures...] Both of these are object > lessons in the difficulties of successful P2P networking in the face > of arbitrary client attacks. I grant you that making simultaneously DoS resistant, scalable and anonymous peer-to-peer networks is a Hard Problem. Even removing the anonymous part it's still a Hard Problem. Note both Freenet and Mojo try to tackle the harder of those two problems and have aspects of publisher and reader anonymity, so that they are doing less well than Kazaa, gnutella and others is partly because they are more ambitious and tackling a harder problem. Also the anonymity aspect possibly makes abuse more likely -- ie the attacker is provided as part of the system tools to obscure his own identity in attacking the system. DoSers of Kazaa or gnutella would likely be more easily identified which is some deterrence. I also agree that the TCPA/Palladium attested closed world computing model could likely more simply address some of these problems. (Lucky slide critique in another post). Adam -- http://www.cypherspace.org/adam/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From popkin at nym.alias.net Fri Aug 9 22:50:19 2002 From: popkin at nym.alias.net (D.Popkin) Date: 10 Aug 2002 05:50:19 -0000 Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA References: Message-ID: <20020810055019.730.qmail@nym.alias.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- AARG! Anonymous writes: > Lucky Green wrote: > > Ray wrote: > > > If I buy a lock I expect that by demonstrating ownership I > > > can get a replacement key or have a locksmith legally open it. > > It appears the days when this was true are waning. At least in the PC > > platform domain. > We have had other systems which work like this for a long while. > Many consumer devices are sealed such that if you open them you void > the warranty. This is to your advantage as a consumer; ... There is exactly one person in the world qualified to decide what's to the advantage of that consumer, and it's not AARG! Anonymous. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3ia Charset: noconv iQBVAwUBPVRO0PPsjZpmLV0BAQEwrQH/eXqkJVmXYmqNtweg6246KMXmCGekK/h6 HNmnd65WeR2A84pJdJFb8jZ2CX6bJ+XrboaDv8klJCo21xTkFxWIuA== =DL2o -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jigwig501325503 at hotmail.com Sat Aug 10 04:34:55 2002 From: jigwig501325503 at hotmail.com (Susan) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 07:34:55 -0400 Subject: Cover your butt on the Internet Message-ID: <200208101142.g7ABgqpU024395@ak47.algebra.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2296 bytes Desc: not available URL: From schear at lvcm.com Sat Aug 10 09:06:26 2002 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 09:06:26 -0700 Subject: responding to claims about TCPA In-Reply-To: <200208101102.g7AB2aq30982@new.toad.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810085922.045fd480@pop3.lvcm.com> At 04:02 AM 8/10/2002 -0700, John Gilmore wrote: >"The transaction"? What transaction? They were talking about the >owner getting reliable reporting on the security of their applications >and OS's and -- uh -- oh yeah, buying music or video over the Internet. > >Part of their misleading technique has apparently been to present no >clear layman's explanations of the actual workings of the technology. >There's a huge gap between the appealing marketing sound bites -- or >FAQ lies -- and the deliberately dry and uneducational 400-page >technical specs. My own judgement is that this is probably >deliberate, since if the public had an accurate 20-page document that >explained how this stuff works and what it is good for, they would >reject the tech instantly. > >Perhaps we in the community should write such a document. Lucky and >Adam Back seem to be working towards it. The similar document about >key-escrow (that CDT published after assembling a panel of experts >including me, Whit, and Matt Blaze) was quite useful in explaining to >lay people and Congressmen what was wrong with it. NSA/DoJ had >trouble countering it, since it was based on the published facts, and >they couldn't impugn the credentials of the authors, nor the >document's internal reasoning. Indeed. Another item I recall from Lucky's Defcon talk is that (I assume) Intel are back at it when it comes to obfuscated crypto. Like the Pentium RNG before it, the TPCA HW will only expose a whitened version making independent analysis difficult-impossible. steve From eugen at leitl.org Sat Aug 10 00:15:28 2002 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 09:15:28 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Thanks, Lucky, for helping to kill gnutella (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't try to filter, but to join several sources. Anonymous is an idiot, but at least an intelligent one. I can't leave him out without creating a skewed picture of what is going on. On Fri, 9 Aug 2002, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > At 1:03 AM +0200 on 8/10/02, Some anonymous, and now apparently > innumerate, idiot in my killfile got himself forwarded to Mr. Leitl's > cream of cypherpunks list: From ocaoha at yahoo.com Sat Aug 10 07:24:57 2002 From: ocaoha at yahoo.com (Send) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 09:24:57 -0500 Subject: Responsive Emails, Help with Sending. Message-ID: <200208101424.g7AEOsR10584@waste.minder.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4433 bytes Desc: not available URL: From remailer at aarg.net Sat Aug 10 11:40:14 2002 From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 11:40:14 -0700 Subject: responding to claims about TCPA Message-ID: AARG! wrote: > I asked Eric Murray, who knows something about TCPA, what he thought > of some of the more ridiculous claims in Ross Anderson's FAQ (like the > SNRL), and he didn't respond. I believe it is because he is unwilling > to publicly take a position in opposition to such a famous and respected > figure. John Gilmore replied: > > Many of the people who "know something about TCPA" are constrained > by NDA's with Intel. Perhaps that is Eric's problem -- I don't know. Maybe, but he could reply just based on public information. Despite this he was unable or unwilling to challenge Ross Anderson. > One of the things I told them years ago was that they should draw > clean lines between things that are designed to protect YOU, the > computer owner, from third parties; versus things that are designed to > protect THIRD PARTIES from you, the computer owner. This is so > consumers can accept the first category and reject the second, which, > if well-informed, they will do. I don't agree with this distinction. If I use a smart card chip that has a private key on it that won't come off, is that protecting me from third parties, or vice versa? If I run a TCPA-enhanced Gnutella that keeps the RIAA from participating and easily finding out who is running supernodes (see http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/08/09/2347245 for the latest crackdown), I benefit, even though the system technically is protecting the data from me. I wrote earlier that if people were honest, trusted computing would not be necessary, because they would keep their promises. Trusted computing allows people to prove to remote users that they will behave honestly. How does that fit into your dichotomy? Society has evolved a myriad mechanisms to allow people to give strong evidence that they will keep their word; without them, trade and commerce would be impossible. By your logic, these protect third parties from you, and hence should be rejected. You would discard the economic foundation for our entire world. > TCPA began in that "protect third parties from the owner" category, > and is apparently still there today. You won't find that out by > reading Intel's modern public literature on TCPA, though; it doesn't > admit to being designed for, or even useful for, DRM. My guess is > that they took my suggestion as marketing advice rather than as a > design separation issue. "Pitch all your protect-third-party products > as if they are protect-the-owner products" was the opposite of what I > suggested, but it's the course they (and the rest of the DRM industry) > are on. E.g. see the July 2002 TCPA faq at: > > http://www.trustedcomputing.org/docs/TPM_QA_071802.pdf > > 3. Is the real "goal" of TCPA to design a TPM to act as a DRM or > Content Protection device? > No. The TCPA wants to increase the trust ... [blah blah blah] > > I believe that "No" is a direct lie. David Grawrock of Intel has an interesting slide presentation on TCPA at http://www.intel.com/design/security/tcpa/slides/index.htm. His slide 3 makes a good point: "All 5 members had very different ideas of what should and should not be added." It's possible that some of the differences in perspective and direction on TCPA are due to the several participants wanting to move in different ways. Some may have been strictly focused on DRM; others may have had a more expansive vision of how trust can benefit all kinds of distributed applications. So it's not clear that you can speak of the "real goal" of TCPA, when there are all these different groups with different ideas. > Intel has removed the first > public version 0.90 of the TCPA spec from their web site, but I have > copies, and many of the examples in the mention DRM, e.g.: > > http://www.trustedcomputing.org/docs/TCPA_first_WP.pdf (still there) > > This TCPA white paper says that the goal is "ubiquity". Another way to > say that is monopoly. Nonsense. The web is ubiquitous, but is not a monopoly. > The idea is to force any other choices out of > the market, except the ones that the movie & record companies want. > The first "scenario" (PDF page 7) states: "For example, before making > content available to a subscriber, it is likely that a service > provider will need to know that the remote platform is trustworthy." That same language is in the Credible Interoperability document presently on the web site at http://www.trustedcomputing.org/docs/Credible_Interoperability_020702.pdf. So I don't think there is necessarily any kind of a cover-up here. > http://www.trustedpc.org/home/pdf/spec0818.pdf (gone now) > > Even this 200-page TCPA-0.90 specification, which is carefully written > to be obfuscatory and misleading, leaks such gems as: "These features > encourage third parties to grant access to by the platform to > information that would otherwise be denied to the platform" (page 14). > "The 'protected store' feature...can hold and manipulate confidential > data, and will allow the release or use of that data only in the > presence of a particular combination of access rghts and software > environment. ... Applications that might benefit include ... delivery > of digital content (such as movies and songs)." (page 15). Yes, DRM can clearly benefit from TCPA/Palladium. And you might be right that they are downplaying that now. But the reason could be that people have focused too much on it as the only purpose for TCPA, just as you have done here. So they are trying to play up the other possibilities so as to get some balance in the discussion. > Of course, they can't help writing in the DRM mindset regardless of > their intent to confuse us. In that July 2002 FAQ again: > > 9. Does TCPA certify applications and OS's that utilize TPMs? > > No. The TCPA has no plans to create a "certifying authority" to > certify OS's or applications as "trusted". The trust model the TCPA > promotes for the PC is: 1) the owner runs whatever OS or > applications they want; 2) The TPM assures reliable reporting of the > state of the platform; and 3) the two parties engaged in the > transaction determine if the other platform is trusted for the > intended transaction. > > "The transaction"? What transaction? They were talking about the > owner getting reliable reporting on the security of their applications > and OS's and -- uh -- oh yeah, buying music or video over the Internet. You are reading an awful lot into this one word "transaction". That doesn't necessarily mean buying digital content. In the abstract sense "transaction" is sometimes used to refer to any exchange of information in a protocol. Even if we do stick to its commercial meaning, it can mean a B2B exchange or any of a wide range of other e-commerce activities. It's not specific to DRM by any means. > Part of their misleading technique has apparently been to present no > clear layman's explanations of the actual workings of the technology. > There's a huge gap between the appealing marketing sound bites -- or > FAQ lies -- and the deliberately dry and uneducational 400-page > technical specs. My own judgement is that this is probably > deliberate, since if the public had an accurate 20-page document that > explained how this stuff works and what it is good for, they would > reject the tech instantly. I agree that the documentation is a problem, but IMO it probably reflects lack of resources rather than obfuscation. I believe that TCPA has many more applications than you and other critics are giving it credit for, and that a good, clear explanation of what it could do would actually gain it support. Do a blog search at daypop.com to see what people are really thinking about TCPA. They read Ross Anderson's TCPA FAQ and take it for gospel. They believe TCPA has serial number revocations and all these other features that are not described in any documents I have seen. A good clear TCPA description could only improve its reputation, which certainly can't go any lower than it is. > Perhaps we in the community should write such a document. Lucky and > Adam Back seem to be working towards it. The similar document about > key-escrow (that CDT published after assembling a panel of experts > including me, Whit, and Matt Blaze) was quite useful in explaining to > lay people and Congressmen what was wrong with it. NSA/DoJ had > trouble countering it, since it was based on the published facts, and > they couldn't impugn the credentials of the authors, nor the > document's internal reasoning. I agree in principle, but I am appalled that you believe that Lucky in particular is heading in the right direction. Adam on the other hand has at least begun to study TCPA and was asking good questions about Palladium before Peter Biddle flew the coop. Will this document say that TCPA is designed to support intelligence agency access to computers? to kill free software? and other such claims from Lucky's presentation? If so, you will only hurt your cause. On the other hand, if you do come up with factual and unbiased information showing both good and bad aspects of TCPA, as I think Adam has come close to doing a few times, then it could be a helpful document. > Intel and Microsoft and anonymous chauvanists can and should criticize > such a document if we write one. That will strengthen it by > eliminating any faulty reasoning or errors of public facts. But they > had better bring forth new exculpating facts if they expect the > authors to change their conclusions. Conclusions should be based on technology. TCPA can be rightly criticized for weak protections of privacy, for ultimately depending on the security of a few central keys and of possibly-weak hardware, and on other technical grounds. But you should not criticize it for supporting DRM, or for making reverse engineering more difficult, because people are under no obligation to give their creative works away for free, or to make it easy for other people to copy their software. Leave your values at home and just present the facts. > They're free to allege that "No > current Microsoft products have Document Revocation Lists", but that > doesn't undermine the conclusion that their architectures make it easy > to secretly implement that feature, anytime they want to. No one has made any such allegation, although presumably it happens to be true. The point in contention is whether TCPA has DRLs! Lucky has claimed this, and Ross claimed the related serial number revocation list, SNRL. Both of them have linked this technology to TCPA/Palladium. Yet as Ross admitted in http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/pipermail/ukcrypto/2002-June/019463.html, SNRL's do not need TCPA! In fact, you are perfectly correct that Microsoft architectures would make it easy at any time to implement DRL's or SNRL's. They could do that tomorrow! They don't need TCPA. So why blame TCPA for this feature? TCPA is a technology. You can't take every bad thing Microsoft ever will do and say that TCPA is at fault. I don't even see that TCPA would particularly help with a SNRL, except insofar as TCPA can generally strengthen security in all respects. But remote attestation and sealing, the core TCPA technologies, don't have anything to do with SNRLs. The association of TCPA with SNRLs is a perfect example of the bias and sensationalism which has surrounded the critical appraisals of TCPA. I fully support John's call for a fair and accurate evaluation of this technology by security professionals. But IMO people like Ross Anderson and Lucky Green have disqualified themselves by virtue of their wild and inaccurate public claims. Anyone who says that TCPA has SNRLs is making a political statement, not a technical one. For a credible evaluation, you need people who have no track record of bias with regard to the technology. From mdpopescu at subdimension.com Sat Aug 10 01:49:14 2002 From: mdpopescu at subdimension.com (Marcel Popescu) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 11:49:14 +0300 Subject: It won't happen here (was Re: TCPA/Palladium -- likely future implications) References: <09128eee2dde41bc96cae43940d56ab1@aarg.net> Message-ID: <002a01c2404a$cdd28a40$a36e9cd9@mark> From: "AARG! Anonymous" > Think about it: this one innocuous little box holding the TPME key could > ultimately be the root of trust for the entire world. IMO we should > spare no expense in guarding it and making sure it is used properly. > With enough different interest groups keeping watch, we should be able > to keep it from being used for anything other than its defined purpose. Now I know the general opinion of AARG, and I can't say I much disagree. But I want to comment on something else here, which I find to be a common trait with US citizens: "it can't happen here". The Chinese gov't can do anything they like, because any citizen who would try to "keep watch" would find himself shot. What basic law of the universe says that this can't happen in the US? What exactly will prevent them, 10 years from now, to say "compelling state interests require that we get to do whatever we want with the little box"? You already have an official "gov't against 1st ammendment" policy, from what I've read. Mark From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Aug 10 11:14:11 2002 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 13:14:11 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA In-Reply-To: <15694.32620.956826.906819@desk.crynwr.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Aug 2002, Russell Nelson wrote: > AARG!Anonymous writes: > > So don't read too much into the fact that a bunch of anonymous postings > > have suddenly started appearing from one particular remailer. For your > > information, I have sent over 400 anonymous messages in the past year > > to cypherpunks, coderpunks, sci.crypt and the cryptography list (35 > > of them on TCPA related topics). > > We have, of course, no way to verify this fact, since your messages > are not cryptographically signed. For someone who claims to be > knowledgable about cryptography, this seems like a suspicious omission. Bullshit Russ, plausable deniability alone justifies such behaviour. Who sent them is irrelevant except to cultists of personality (eg CACL adherents). Base your analysis on facts and experiment. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Conform and be dull......J. Frank Dobie ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com jchoate at open-forge.org www.open-forge.org -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ray at unipay.nl Sat Aug 10 05:08:21 2002 From: ray at unipay.nl (R. Hirschfeld) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 14:08:21 +0200 Subject: Thanks, Lucky, for helping to kill gnutella In-Reply-To: (message from AARG!Anonymous on Fri, 9 Aug 2002 20:25:40 -0700) References: Message-ID: <200208101208.OAA01653@home.unipay.nl> > Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 20:25:40 -0700 > From: AARG!Anonymous > Right, as if my normal style has been so effective. Not one person has > given me the least support in my efforts to explain the truth about TCPA > and Palladium. Hal, I think you were right on when you wrote: But feel free to make whatever assumptions you like about my motives. All I ask is that you respond to my facts. I, for one, support your efforts, even though I don't agree with some of your conclusions. It is clear that you hold a firm opinion that differs from what many others here believe, so in making your points you can expect objections to be raised. You will be more convincing (at least to me) if you continue to respond to these dispassionately on the basis of facts and reasoned opinions (your "normal style"?). Calling Lucky a liar is no more illuminating than others calling you an idiot. --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From udhay at pobox.com Sat Aug 10 01:57:58 2002 From: udhay at pobox.com (Udhay Shankar N) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 14:27:58 +0530 Subject: Utilizing Palladium against software piracy In-Reply-To: <001b01c23f29$c959f4c0$6801a8c0@xpserver> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810142459.03016a90@bgl.vsnl.net.in> At 03:20 PM 8/8/02 -0700, Lucky Green wrote: >I, on the other hand, am able to think of several methods in which >Palladium or operating systems built on top of TCPA can be used to >assist in the enforcement of software licenses and the fight against >software piracy. I therefore, over the course of the night, wrote - >and my patent agent filed with the USPTO earlier today - an >application for an US Patent covering numerous methods by which >software applications can be protected against software piracy on a >platform offering the >features that are slated to be provided by Palladium. I can't think why there has been no reaction to this bit yet onlist. Lucky, could you keep us posted on the progress of this effort, and what your intentions are (should it be successful), please? Udhay --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From hothoney_1 at eudoramail.com Fri Aug 9 23:30:52 2002 From: hothoney_1 at eudoramail.com (Wilson Gottlieb) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 14:30:52 +0800 Subject: ibp,Natural Bust - Amazing Breast Enhancing Capsules Message-ID: <200208101256.g7ACuPpU029533@ak47.algebra.com> ================================= Guaranteed to increase, lift and firm your breasts in 60 days or your money back!! 100% herbal and natural. Proven formula since 1996. Increase your bust by 1 to 3 sizes within 30-60 days and be all natural. Click here: http://64.123.160.91:81/li/wangyan/ http://202.101.163.34:81/li/wangyan/ Absolutely no side effects! Be more self confident! Be more comfortable in bed! No more need for a lift or support bra! 100% GUARANTEED AND FROM A NAME YOU KNOW AND TRUST! ************************************************** You are receiving this email as a double opt-in subscriber to the Standard Affiliates Mailing List. To remove yourself from all related email lists, just click here: http://64.123.160.91:81/li/gg/unsubscriber.asp?userid=ibp at pioneernet.net From jamesd at echeque.com Sat Aug 10 14:34:53 2002 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 14:34:53 -0700 Subject: Thanks, Lucky, for helping to kill gnutella (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3D55248D.8701.15065A8@localhost> -- On 10 Aug 2002 at 16:25, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > [Ob Cypherpunks: Seriously, folks. How clueful can someone be > who clearly doesn't know how to use more than one remailer hop, > as proven by the fact that he's always coming out of the *same* > remailer all the time? The fact that he uses a constant exit remailer does not show that he is using a single hop. I always come out of the same remailer at the end, even though I always use about three randomly selected remailers between myself and the constant exit remailer. I always select the same end remailer to avoid confusing the audience, and I selected a less used exit remailer for the same reason. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG c3w9s36+CG9NnfBCbV9lBPm1GKPtff16r/hBMRj2 2ZIqRKb9UCTCvlWhGVeGUb1eknPEG0ynX12OrTTXM From nelson at crynwr.com Sat Aug 10 12:02:54 2002 From: nelson at crynwr.com (Russell Nelson) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 15:02:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA In-Reply-To: References: <15694.32620.956826.906819@desk.crynwr.com> Message-ID: <15701.25201.823580.29518@desk.crynwr.com> Jim Choate writes: > > On Mon, 5 Aug 2002, Russell Nelson wrote: > > > AARG!Anonymous writes: > > > So don't read too much into the fact that a bunch of anonymous postings > > > have suddenly started appearing from one particular remailer. For your > > > information, I have sent over 400 anonymous messages in the past year > > > to cypherpunks, coderpunks, sci.crypt and the cryptography list (35 > > > of them on TCPA related topics). > > > > We have, of course, no way to verify this fact, since your messages > > are not cryptographically signed. For someone who claims to be > > knowledgable about cryptography, this seems like a suspicious omission. > > Bullshit Russ, plausable deniability alone justifies such behaviour. > > Who sent them is irrelevant except to cultists of personality (eg CACL > adherents). I agree that it's irrelevant. So why is he trying to argue from authority (always a fallacy anyway) without *even* having any way to prove that he is that authority? Fine, let him desire plausible deniability. I plausibly deny his appeal to (self-)authority as being completely without merit. -- -russ nelson http://russnelson.com | Crynwr sells support for free software | PGPok | businesses persuade 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315 268 1925 voice | governments coerce Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | +1 315 268 9201 FAX | --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From shamrock at cypherpunks.to Sat Aug 10 15:13:49 2002 From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 15:13:49 -0700 Subject: FAQ: How will Microsoft respond to Lucky's patent application? Message-ID: <012001c240bb$36f28280$6801a8c0@xpserver> I have received numerous questions in conversations and interviews over the last few days as to what I believe Microsoft's response will be to my recent patent application for methods that utilize Palladium and operating systems built on top of TCPA to assist in the fight against software piracy. Rather than continuing to repeat the same answers in conversations, I will simply make the answers available to the lists. Obviously, the following is my personal opinion. I don't profess to speak for Microsoft. Allow me to first outline some principles of how patents work in the U.S. Note that I am not a member of the federal Patent Bar and as such the following is simply my limited understanding of the process and should not be construed as legal advice. For a patent to be valid in the U.S., the idea to be patented must offer utility, be novel, and be non-obvious. I will address the three requirements as I believe they apply to my patent application in turn: Utility: According to the Business Software Alliance's website, in the financial loss to U.S. society due to software piracy in the year 2000 alone amounted to a staggering USD 7.2 billion. I therefore don't believe it can be reasonably argued that methods that may help reduce the level of software piracy lack utility. In particular, I don't anticipate Microsoft to argue that protections against software piracy that assist in the enforcement of licensing agreements lack utility. Novelty: As I mentioned in my earlier post, Peter Biddle, Product Unit Manager for Palladium, very publicly and unambiguously stated during Wednesday's panel at the USENIX Security conference that the Palladium team, despite having been asked by Microsoft's anti-piracy groups for methods by which Palladium could assist in the fight against software piracy, knows of no way in which Palladium can be utilized to assist this end. Peter after the panel asked Brian LaMacchia, a well-known security expert with Microsoft, who was present but not on the panel, if he knew of a way to utilize Palladium to assist in the enforcement of software licenses. Brian did not respond with a solution. (At that time I briefly mentioned to both one of the methods in which I believe Palladium can be used to assist in the fight against software piracy). Peter, who obviously would have been aware of all such methods were they known to the Palladium team, struck me as a forthcoming guy. While I will readily admit that the impression I gained of the person over the two hours I interacted with Peter may carry little weight with those that consider the words Microsoft and honesty to be mutually exclusive, I would like to point out the following: If Microsoft, after so publicly denying any knowledge of ways to use Palladium to assist in the enforcement of application software licenses to an audience representing a veritable who's who of computer security and related public policy (the attendees ranged from Whit Diffie to Pam Samuelson), were to - after my filing for a patent - suddenly assert prior art, neither the attendees, nor the press, nor the public would take kindly to having been so deliberately misled by Microsoft. The likely result would be that Palladium will lose what limited support the initiative may have at this time. I suspect that even somebody that may have a low opinion of Microsoft will agree that Microsoft is not as stupid as to play such a dangerous and losing game. I was asked the next day at USENIX if Microsoft could not simply claim prior art when in fact they had none at the time my invention was made. I would like to reiterate my points made above and add that such claims would need to be filed under oath. Whatever one's opinion of Microsoft may be, I doubt that the salaries paid in Redmond are sufficiently large to goad a mid-level employee into committing perjury. Lastly, it does not matter for the above analysis if any supposed prior art were to be claimed to be created by Microsoft or third parties. It is simply inconceivable that the scientific members of the Palladium team would have been unaware of any such prior art given the their many years on the project and the thorough research they engaged in as evidenced by the lengthy DRM OS patent. If prior art existed, the Palladium team would unquestionably have known about it and thus been able to tell their anti-piracy group and the attendees at USENIX about methods to utilize Palladium as a tool in the fight against software piracy. Since they did not, the reasonable conclusion is that no such prior art exists. Obviousness: In the interest of brevity, I will simply state that if the Palladium team has not thought of such methods in the years they worked the project every day, the methods mentioned in my patent application cannot conceivably be considered obvious. In summary, at this time I am not aware of any grounds on which Microsoft could challenge my patent once/if it will be issued. I therefore currently do not anticipate that Microsoft will challenge the patent. Lastly, I feel obliged to mention that it is quite irrelevant what I, Microsoft, or the subscribers to this list believe to be the case with respect to my patent application. All that matters is what the patent examiner at the USPTO believes. Unless one of the subscribers to this list happens to work as a patent examiner. --Lucky Green --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From remailer at aarg.net Sat Aug 10 15:15:07 2002 From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG!Anonymous) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 15:15:07 -0700 Subject: Seth on TCPA at Defcon/Usenix Message-ID: Seth Schoen of the EFF has a good blog entry about Palladium and TCPA at http://vitanuova.loyalty.org/2002-08-09.html. He attended Lucky's presentation at DEF CON and also sat on the TCPA/Palladium panel at the USENIX Security Symposium. Seth has a very balanced perspective on these issues compared to most people in the community. It makes me proud to be an EFF supporter (in fact I happen to be wearing my EFF T-shirt right now). His description of how the Document Revocation List could work is interesting as well. Basically you would have to connect to a server every time you wanted to read a document, in order to download a key to unlock it. Then if "someone" decided that the document needed to un-exist, they would arrange for the server no longer to download that key, and the document would effectively be deleted, everywhere. I think this clearly would not be a feature that most people would accept as an enforced property of their word processor. You'd be unable to read things unless you were online, for one thing. And any document you were relying on might be yanked away from you with no warning. Such a system would be so crippled that if Microsoft really did this for Word, sales of "vi" would go through the roof. It reminds me of an even better way for a word processor company to make money: just scramble all your documents, then demand ONE MILLION DOLLARS for the keys to decrypt them. The money must be sent to a numbered Swiss account, and the software checks with a server to find out when the money has arrived. Some of the proposals for what companies will do with Palladium seem about as plausible as this one. Seth draws an analogy with Acrobat, where the paying customers are actually the publishers, the reader being given away for free. So Adobe does have incentives to put in a lot of DRM features that let authors control publication and distribution. But he doesn't follow his reasoning to its logical conclusion when dealing with Microsoft Word. That program is sold to end users - people who create their own documents for the use of themselves and their associates. The paying customers of Microsoft Word are exactly the ones who would be screwed over royally by Seth's scheme. So if we "follow the money" as Seth in effect recommends, it becomes even more obvious that Microsoft would never force Word users to be burdened with a DRL feature. And furthermore, Seth's scheme doesn't rely on TCPA/Palladium. At the risk of aiding the fearmongers, I will explain that TCPA technology actually allows for a much easier implementation, just as it does in so many other areas. There is no need for the server to download a key; it only has to download an updated DRL, and the Word client software could be trusted to delete anything that was revoked. But the point is, Seth's scheme would work just as well today, without TCPA existing. As I quoted Ross Anderson saying earlier with regard to "serial number revocation lists", these features don't need TCPA technology. So while I have some quibbles with Seth's analysis, on the whole it is the most balanced that I have seen from someone who has no connection with the designers (other than my own writing, of course). A personal gripe is that he referred to Lucky's "critics", plural, when I feel all alone out here. I guess I'll have to start using the royal "we". But he redeemed himself by taking mild exception to Lucky's slide show, which is a lot farther than anyone else has been willing to go in public. --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From ben at algroup.co.uk Sat Aug 10 07:46:03 2002 From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 15:46:03 +0100 Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA References: <004601c23d28$791bb3c0$6801a8c0@xpserver> Message-ID: <3D55272B.6060906@algroup.co.uk> Lucky Green wrote: > Ray wrote: > >>>From: "James A. Donald" >>>Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 20:51:24 -0700 >> >>>On 29 Jul 2002 at 15:35, AARG! Anonymous wrote: >>> >>>>both Palladium and TCPA deny that they are designed to restrict >>>>what applications you run. The TPM FAQ at >>>>http://www.trustedcomputing.org/docs/TPM_QA_071802.pdf reads >>>>.... >>> >>>They deny that intent, but physically they have that capability. >> >>To make their denial credible, they could give the owner >>access to the private key of the TPM/SCP. But somehow I >>don't think that jibes with their agenda. > > > Probably not surprisingly to anybody on this list, with the exception of > potentially Anonymous, according to the TCPA's own TPM Common Criteria > Protection Profile, the TPM prevents the owner of a TPM from exporting > the TPM's internal key. The ability of the TPM to keep the owner of a PC > from reading the private key stored in the TPM has been evaluated to E3 > (augmented). For the evaluation certificate issued by NIST, see: > > http://niap.nist.gov/cc-scheme/PPentries/CCEVS-020016-VR-TPM.pdf Obviously revealing the key would defeat any useful properties of the TPM/SCP. However, unless the machine refuses to run stuff unless signed by some other key, its a matter of choice whether you run an OS that has the aforementioned properties. Of course, its highly likely that if you want to watch products of Da Mouse on your PC, you will be obliged to choose a certain OS. In order to avoid more sinister uses, it makes sense to me to ensure that at least one free OS gets appropriate signoff (and no, that does not include a Linux port by HP). At least, it makes sense to me if I assume that the certain other OS will otherwise become dominant. Which seems likely. Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ Available for contract work. "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From derek at ihtfp.com Sat Aug 10 12:51:26 2002 From: derek at ihtfp.com (Derek Atkins) Date: 10 Aug 2002 15:51:26 -0400 Subject: responding to claims about TCPA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: AARG!Anonymous writes: > I don't agree with this distinction. If I use a smart card chip that > has a private key on it that won't come off, is that protecting me from > third parties, or vice versa? If I run a TCPA-enhanced Gnutella that Who owns the key? If you bought the smartcard, you generated the key yourself on the smartcard, and you control it, then it is probably benefitting you. If the smartcard came preprogrammed with a certificate from the manufacturer, then I would say that it is protecting the third party from you. > I wrote earlier that if people were honest, trusted computing would not > be necessary, because they would keep their promises. Trusted computing > allows people to prove to remote users that they will behave honestly. > How does that fit into your dichotomy? Society has evolved a myriad The difference is proving that you are being honest to someone else vs. an application proving to YOU that it is being honest. Again, it is a question of ownership. There is the DRM side (you proving to someone else that you are being honest) vs. Virus Protection (an application proving to _you_ that it is being honest). -derek -- Derek Atkins Computer and Internet Security Consultant derek at ihtfp.com www.ihtfp.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Aug 10 14:04:27 2002 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 16:04:27 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA In-Reply-To: <15701.25201.823580.29518@desk.crynwr.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Aug 2002, Russell Nelson wrote: > I agree that it's irrelevant. So why is he trying to argue from > authority (always a fallacy anyway) without *even* having any way to > prove that he is that authority? What has 'authority' got to do with it? Arguments from authority are -worthless-. Make up your own mind as to its validity, who cares about their 'proof'. -Who- is irrelevant. What damns his argument -is- his appeal to -authority-. Anyone who bases their argument on 'He said...' has already lost the discussion and invalidated any point they might make. It's one of the primary fallacies of (for example) Tim May and his consistent appeal to who he knows or what 'they' said. We agree, what I don't understand is why you keep expecting that dead horse to get up...keep asking those damning questions!!!! ;) -- ____________________________________________________________________ Conform and be dull......J. Frank Dobie ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com jchoate at open-forge.org www.open-forge.org -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rah at shipwright.com Sat Aug 10 13:25:17 2002 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 16:25:17 -0400 Subject: Thanks, Lucky, for helping to kill gnutella (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 9:15 AM +0200 on 8/10/02, Eugen Leitl wrote: > I don't try to filter, but to join several sources. Anonymous is an > idiot, but at least an intelligent one. I can't leave him out > without creating a skewed picture of what is going on. No offense meant, of course. To make sure I don't miss stuff like that is why I subscribe to your list anyway, even though I'm also subscribed to most of your sources. It is also why I was glad you caught something he said that confirmed, precisely, why he's still in my killfile. :-). I don't need to raise my blood pressure more than necessary. [Ob Cypherpunks: Seriously, folks. How clueful can someone be who clearly doesn't know how to use more than one remailer hop, as proven by the fact that he's always coming out of the *same* remailer all the time? Even more important, nobody *else* uses that remailer, which is why killfiling the idiot works so well to begin with...] Anyway, on this list in particular, I've found that what any number of smart people say about what the idiot du jour says is much more interesting than what the actual idiot says himself, which is why he can safely reside in a killfile. (Having said more than my share of stupid things here myself in 8 years here, and being no stranger to the odd killfile myself :-), I'm sure lots of peoples' irony meters are pegged, but, by definition, those folks can go fuck themselves, I figure. :-).) Cheers, RAH -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 7.5 iQA/AwUBPVV2YsPxH8jf3ohaEQI0mQCeIvBppfM6c2HfCQAyjlLn3w0UCfkAoIA8 NObxG1Bk8BPLraIx3LrjnJbL =dg+p -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From ray at unipay.nl Sat Aug 10 07:33:30 2002 From: ray at unipay.nl (R. Hirschfeld) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 16:33:30 +0200 Subject: Challenge to TCPA/Palladium detractors In-Reply-To: <9a9b042036dae4dc85cd793e52375ec5@aarg.net> (message from AARG!Anonymous on Fri, 9 Aug 2002 19:30:09 -0700) References: <9a9b042036dae4dc85cd793e52375ec5@aarg.net> Message-ID: <200208101433.QAA02032@home.unipay.nl> > Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 19:30:09 -0700 > From: AARG!Anonymous > Re the debate over whether compilers reliably produce identical object > (executable) files: > > The measurement and hashing in TCPA/Palladium will probably not be done > on the file itself, but on the executable content that is loaded into > memory. For Palladium it is just the part of the program called the > "trusted agent". So file headers with dates, compiler version numbers, > etc., will not be part of the data which is hashed. > > The only thing that would really break the hash would be changes to the > compiler code generator that cause it to create different executable > output for the same input. This might happen between versions, but > probably most widely used compilers are relatively stable in that > respect these days. Specifying the compiler version and build flags > should provide good reliability for having the executable content hash > the same way for everyone. A trivial observation: this cannot be true across hardware platforms. TCPA claims to be "platform and OS agnostic", but Palladium does not. --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From eugen at leitl.org Sat Aug 10 07:42:52 2002 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 16:42:52 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Thanks, Lucky, for helping to kill gnutella In-Reply-To: <200208101208.OAA01653@home.unipay.nl> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Aug 2002, R. Hirschfeld wrote: > Calling Lucky a liar is no more illuminating than others calling you > an idiot. You're confusing a classification for an argument. The argument is over. You can read it up in the archives. If you think there's still anything left to discuss, I've got these plans of the Death Star I could sell you... From eugen at leitl.org Sat Aug 10 07:53:30 2002 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 16:53:30 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Challenge to TCPA/Palladium detractors In-Reply-To: <200208101433.QAA02032@home.unipay.nl> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Aug 2002, R. Hirschfeld wrote: > A trivial observation: this cannot be true across hardware platforms. Untrue, just use a VM. Open Boot Forth would do nicely. > TCPA claims to be "platform and OS agnostic", but Palladium does not. Have fun in that there tarpit. From rah at shipwright.com Sat Aug 10 14:06:26 2002 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 17:06:26 -0400 Subject: On the outright laughability of internet "democracy" In-Reply-To: <012101c2405c$2595fa30$def61dd4@internetkmfcrr> References: <20020809162254.59170.qmail@web9208.mail.yahoo.com> <012101c2405c$2595fa30$def61dd4@internetkmfcrr> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 (was Re: [dgc.chat] Re: [e-gold-list] Re: Thanks to Ragnar/Planetgold and Stefan/TGC) At 12:53 PM +0200 on 8/10/02, Arik Schenkler wrote: > Internet voting, IMHO, will bring true democracy rather than a > representatives democracy. Well, that's just plain wrong. Go look up discussions on google about cryptographic protocols for internet voting. It just ain't possible without the most strict, obscene, biometric, draconian, "is a person", non-anonymous methods you ever saw. Lions, tigers, and precious bodily fluids, boys and girls. The point to democracy, in the industrial/agricultural political sense, is one man, one vote. One *anonymous* vote. On the net, paradoxically, that is completely impossible. Votes can be sold. If you fix it so that you can't sell votes without forgoing your identity -- and thus your freedom -- and physically showing up somewhere to vote, or at least proving that you have a device that identifies you as a voter in the most immediate terms possible, you can sell your vote, anonymously, on the net, for whatever the market will bear, and *that* person can *re*sell your vote, and so on, just like it was voting rights to a share of stock. That bit of cryptographic mobiosity is probably down at the semantic level of consistency versus completeness. Somewhere, Goedel and Russell are laughing. The net result, of course, of any kind of truly anonymous internet voting, is anarchocapitalism, where people sell their voting control over assets, including political "assets", over and over in secondary markets, on a continuing basis, in real-time. No political small-d democrat (or small-r republican, or small-l libertarian, whatever) I've ever heard of would call that a "true" democracy. That particular prospect has anarchocapitalists, and crypto-anarchists, out at the bar, buying both Herr Professor Goedel and Lord Russell a beer or two... Cheers, RAH -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 7.5 iQA/AwUBPVWANsPxH8jf3ohaEQLSXwCg7ohcz+ZCxGsX86HQSXFJHK3OOD8AoJAW 8doH9VU+LyGdpZ4x6zmz74Bv =G4Fp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From jeroen at vangelderen.org Sat Aug 10 14:42:31 2002 From: jeroen at vangelderen.org (Jeroen C.van Gelderen) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 17:42:31 -0400 Subject: Thanks, Lucky, for helping to kill gnutella In-Reply-To: <8c25bf764b14de9e2d3d9cd24a6d49fb@aarg.net> Message-ID: <12CE629E-ACAA-11D6-A080-000393754B1C@vangelderen.org> On Friday, Aug 9, 2002, at 13:05 US/Eastern, AARG!Anonymous wrote: > If only... Luckily the cypherpunks are doing all they can to make sure > that no such technology ever exists. They will protect us from being > able > to extend trust across the network. They will make sure that any open > network like Gnutella must forever face the challenge of rogue clients. > They will make sure that open source systems are especially vulnerable > to rogues, helping to drive these projects into closed source form. This argument is a straw man but to be fair: I am looking forward to your detailed proof that the only way to protect a Gnutella-like network from rogue clients is a Palladium-like system. You are so adamant that I have to assume you have such proof sitting right on your desk. Please share it with us. -J --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From Pete.Chown at skygate.co.uk Sat Aug 10 11:34:18 2002 From: Pete.Chown at skygate.co.uk (Pete Chown) Date: 10 Aug 2002 19:34:18 +0100 Subject: Thanks, Lucky, for helping to kill gnutella In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1029004458.1452.71.camel@yeltsin.mthink> Anonymous wrote: > As far as Freenet and MojoNation, we all know that the latter shut down, > probably in part because the attempted traffic-control mechanisms made > the whole network so unwieldy that it never worked. Right, so let's solve this problem. Palladium/TCPA solves the problem in one sense, but in a very inconvenient way. First of all, they stop you running a client which has been modified in any way -- not just a client which has been modified to be selfish. Secondly, they facilitate the other bad things which have been raised on this list. > Right, as if my normal style has been so effective. Not one person has > given me the least support in my efforts to explain the truth about TCPA > and Palladium. The reason for that is that we all disagree with you. I'm interested to read your opinions, but I will argue against you. I'm not interested in reading flames at all. -- Pete From anonymous at remailer.havenco.com Sat Aug 10 13:01:09 2002 From: anonymous at remailer.havenco.com (Anonymous User) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 20:01:09 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Signing as one member of a set of keys Message-ID: <364bf85b104f607ec4c8ca3ce61ba2c8@remailer.havenco.com> Here are the perl scripts I cobbled together to put the ring signature at the end of the file, after a separator. I called the executable program from the earlier C source code "ringsig". I call these ringver and ringsign. I'm no perl hacker so these could undoubtedly be greatly improved. ringver === #! /usr/bin/perl # Usage: $0 pubkeyfile < filetoverify die("Usage: ringver pubkeyfile < filetoverify") if @ARGV != 1; $outfile = "/tmp/sigdata$$"; $sigfile = "/tmp/sigfile$$"; $separator = " \\+\\+multisig v1\\.0"; $pubfile=$ARGV[0]; -r $pubfile || die ("Error reading $pubfile"); open (OUTFILE, ">".$outfile) || die ("Unable to open $outfile for output"); open (SIGFILE, ">".$sigfile) || die ("Unable to open $sigfile for output"); # Skip leading blank lines on input file $_= while /^$/; # Save lines to outfile until separator print OUTFILE $_; while () { last if /$separator/; print OUTFILE $_; } die ("No signature found in input file") if !$_; # Save remaining lines ot sigfile print SIGFILE while ; close INFILE; close OUTFILE; close SIGFILE; open (SIG, "./ringsig -v $outfile $pubfile < $sigfile |") || die ("Error running verify program"); # Print output from program print while ; close SIG; unlink($sigfile); unlink($outfile); exit($?); ringsign === #! /usr/bin/perl # Usage: $0 filetosign pubkeyfile privkeyfile die("Usage: ringsign filetosign pubkeyfile privkeyfile > outfile") if @ARGV < 3; $outfile = "/tmp/sigdata$$"; $separator = " ++multisig v1.0"; open(INFILE, $ARGV[0]) || die ("Unable to open $ARGV[0] for input"); $pubfile=$ARGV[1]; $secfile=$ARGV[2]; -r $pubfile || die ("Error reading $pubfile"); -r $secfile || die ("Error reading $secfile"); open (OUTFILE, ">".$outfile) || die ("Unable to open $outfile for output"); # Skip leading blank lines on input file $_= while /^$/; # Save lines to outfile print OUTFILE $_; print OUTFILE $_ while ; close INFILE; close OUTFILE; # Re-open infile open(INFILE, $ARGV[0]) || die ("Unable to open $ARGV[0] for input"); open (SIG, "./ringsig -s $outfile $pubfile $secfile|") || die ("Error signing"); @sigs = ; close SIG; die ("Error from signature program") if ($?); # Output infile, separator, sig print while ; print $separator . "\n"; print @sigs; unlink($outfile); From bram at gawth.com Sat Aug 10 21:15:00 2002 From: bram at gawth.com (Bram Cohen) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 21:15:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Thanks, Lucky, for helping to kill gnutella In-Reply-To: Message-ID: AARG!Anonymous wrote: > I will just point out that it was not my idea, but rather that Salon > said that the Gnutella developers were considering moving to authorized > clients. According to Eric, those developers are "fundamentally stupid." > According to Bram, the Gnutella developers don't understand their > own protocol, and they are supporting an idea which will not help. > Apparently their belief that clients like Qtrax are hurting the system > is totally wrong, and keeping such clients off the system won't help. You can try running a sniffer on it yourself. Gnutella traffic is almost all search queries. > As far as Freenet and MojoNation, we all know that the latter shut down, > probably in part because the attempted traffic-control mechanisms made > the whole network so unwieldy that it never worked. Mojo Nation actually had a completely excessive amount of bandwidth donated to it. There was a problem that people complained of losing mojo when running a server due to the total amount of upload being greater than the total amount of download. The main user experience disaster in Mojo Nation was that the retrieval rate for files was very bad, mostly due to the high peer churn rate. > At least in part this was also due to malicious clients, according to > the analysis at http://www.cs.rice.edu/Conferences/IPTPS02/188.pdf. Oh gee, that paper mostly talks about high churn rate too. In fact, I was one of the main developers of Mojo Nation, and based on lessons learned from that figured out how to build a system which can cope with very high churn rates and has good leech resistance. It is now mature and has had several quite successful deployments. http://bitconjurer.org/BitTorrent/ Not only are the algorithms used good for leech resistance, they are also very good at being robust under normal variances in net conditions - in fact, the decentralized greedy approach to resource allocation outperforms any known centralized method. The TCPA, even if it some day works perfectly (which I seriously doubt it will) would just plain not help with any of the immediate problems in Gnutella, BitTorrent, or Mojo Nation. I would guess the same is true for most, if not all other p2p systems. -Bram Cohen "Markets can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent" -- John Maynard Keynes --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From ray at unipay.nl Sat Aug 10 12:25:02 2002 From: ray at unipay.nl (R. Hirschfeld) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 21:25:02 +0200 Subject: Thanks, Lucky, for helping to kill gnutella In-Reply-To: (message from Eugen Leitl on Sat, 10 Aug 2002 16:42:52 +0200 (CEST)) References: Message-ID: <200208101925.VAA02695@home.unipay.nl> > Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 16:42:52 +0200 (CEST) > From: Eugen Leitl > > > Calling Lucky a liar is no more illuminating than others calling you > > an idiot. > > You're confusing a classification for an argument. The argument is over. > You can read it up in the archives. If you think there's still anything > left to discuss, I've got these plans of the Death Star I could sell > you... I took a look at the archives as you suggested. If it matters to you, I wasn't referring to your classification of Anonymous as an idiot (which I hadn't seen because it wasn't sent to the cryptography list), but rather to an earlier comment ("Wow. You must really be an idiot.") from somebody else. Looking back at that message, it appears that it was sent to the cryptography list but not to cypherpunks. Discussion about TCPA/Pd continues, and I hope that disagreements needn't degenerate into name-calling. From darren at tao.ca Sat Aug 10 21:43:01 2002 From: darren at tao.ca (darren at tao.ca) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 21:43:01 -0700 Subject: No subject Message-ID: unsubscribe From darren at tao.ca Sat Aug 10 21:43:09 2002 From: darren at tao.ca (darren at tao.ca) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 21:43:09 -0700 Subject: No subject Message-ID: unsubscribe From ashwood at msn.com Sat Aug 10 21:46:12 2002 From: ashwood at msn.com (Joseph Ashwood) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 21:46:12 -0700 Subject: Seth on TCPA at Defcon/Usenix References: Message-ID: <011c01c240f2$27fab400$6601a8c0@none> ----- Original Message ----- From: "AARG! Anonymous" [brief description of Document Revocation List] >Seth's scheme doesn't rely on TCPA/Palladium. Actually it does, in order to make it valuable. Without a hardware assist, the attack works like this: Hack your software (which is in many ways almost trivial) to reveal it's private key. Watch the protocol. Decrypt protocol Grab decryption key use decryption key problem solved With hardware assist, trusted software, and a trusted execution environment it (doesn't) work like this: Hack you software. DOH!!!!! the software won't run revert back to the stored software. Hack the hardware (extremely difficult). Virtualize the hardware at a second layer, using the grabbed private key Hack the software Watch the protocol. Decrypt protocol Grab decryption key use decryption key Once the file is released the server revokes all trust in your client, effectively removing all files from your computer that you have not decrypted yet problem solved? only for valuable files Of course if you could find some way to disguise which source was hacked, things change. Now about the claim that MS Word would not have this "feature." It almost certainly would. The reason being that business customers are of particular interest to MS, since they supply a large portion of the money for Word (and everything else). Businesses would want to be able to configure their network in such a way that critical business information couldn't be leaked to the outside world. Of course this removes the advertising path of conveniently leaking carefully constructed documents to the world, but for many companies that is a trivial loss. Joe --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From lynn.wheeler at firstdata.com Sat Aug 10 22:40:00 2002 From: lynn.wheeler at firstdata.com (lynn.wheeler at firstdata.com) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 23:40:00 -0600 Subject: Challenge to TCPA/Palladium detractors Message-ID: oops, finger slip that should be http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001h.html#61 security proportional to risk aka 2001h.html not 2002h.html .... lynn.wheeler at firstdata.com on 8/10/2002 11:25 pm wrote: small discussion of security proportional to risk: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#61 security proportional to risk From nelson at crynwr.com Sat Aug 10 22:01:29 2002 From: nelson at crynwr.com (Russell Nelson) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 01:01:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Challenge to TCPA/Palladium detractors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <15701.60947.440939.749927@desk.crynwr.com> AARG!Anonymous writes: > I'd like the Palladium/TCPA critics to offer an alternative proposal > for achieving the following technical goal: > > Allow computers separated on the internet to cooperate and share data > and computations such that no one can get access to the data outside > the limitations and rules imposed by the applications. Can't be done. I don't have time to go into ALL the reasons. Fortunately for me, any one reason is sufficient. #1: it's all about the economics. You have failed to specify that the cost of breaking into the data has to exceed the value of the data. But even if you did that, you'd have to assume that the data was never worth more than that to *anyone*. As soon as it was worth that, they could break into the data, and data is, after all, just data. Ignore economics at your peril. -- -russ nelson http://russnelson.com | Crynwr sells support for free software | PGPok | businesses persuade 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315 268 1925 voice | governments coerce Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | +1 315 268 9201 FAX | From john.m.madsen at gmx.net Sat Aug 10 16:10:52 2002 From: john.m.madsen at gmx.net (John Madsen) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 01:10:52 +0200 Subject: This MAY be a spam e-mail, but if so it's a REALLY good one! Message-ID: <4157-220028610231052742@event-horizon> My apologies for sending an unsolicited message, but if you like games, play on the stockmarket or you just wouldn't mind earning a few extra bucks, quid or whatever, I recommend you take a look at this website: World Games Inc is a fairly new thing to the net and is to date only really popular in Australia and here in Norway. It looks a bit like one of the tired, old pyramid games at first glance, but differs from those in that there is no sending money upwards through the levels, no buying stuff every week/month or you lose your place, or anything like that. Your only outlay is an initial $195 or equivalent and a further $8 or so every week after 4 weeks. I won't bother with a detailed explanation here, as the website sets out the system very well. There's also a PowerPoint presentation you can download and browse through at your leisure. The system will also feature various games like blackjack, poker and sports betting, which will be implemented in the future. This is no "get rich real quick" scheme, but rather a system which will reward those who are willing to put in a little bit of work now and then over time and, of course, the more effort, the greater the rewards. The bonus for all those who join now, is that the game is really only beginning to spread throughout the rest of the world (there are a very few players in Sweden, the UK, Denmark and the US so far) and getting in early is a definite advantage. My own personal experience so far is very limited, as I held off joining in order to see how my friends did (most of them joined right away) but now I've jumped on the bandwagon myself, since the most industrious of them earn around $200/week (after about 6 weeks). Like I said - no-one is claiming you'll be able to quit your job in six months and move to the Bahamas, but you're just about guaranteed to get your money back and more besides if you can find two people who'll join up below you. My reason for writing this is, of course, almost entirely self-serving. I need more members to join below me, in order that I earn more money. However, any money I earn WILL NOT come out of your money, so it's entirely in your interest too. Spend a few minutes of your time checking it out and you'll see what I mean - it may pay off very handsomely indeed. If you're interested or have any questions, just mail me and I'll get back to you as soon as possible. John M. Madsen (john.m.madsen at gmx.net) From rah at shipwright.com Sat Aug 10 22:55:34 2002 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 01:55:34 -0400 Subject: Thanks, Lucky, for helping to kill gnutella (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 4:12 AM +0000 on 8/11/02, David Wagner wrote: > I hope I don't need to point out that always using the same exit > remailer does *not* prove that he is using just one hop. One can > hold the exit remailer fixed while varying other hops in the path. > Your question seems to be based on a mistaken assumption about how > remailers work. Sorry to give that impression, and, as much as I respect you, and James Donald, who also makes the same assertion about me, both of you would be wrong in assuming that I don't know how remailers work, at least in principle. While I haven't ever built a remailer, I *have* used them on occasion, and I did edit Sameer Parekh's excellent introduction to anonymous remailers for one of the first issues of First Monday, when I was on the editorial board there in the middle 1990's. That said, I would be willing to bet a (very :-)) nominal amount that the esteemed Mr. AAARG! is, or was, in fact, using one hop, at most, though to prove the bet out would be difficult thing to do. In fact, to add further insult to his street cred, or at least kick some dust on his patent-leather penny-loafers, I wouldn't be surprised if the remailer is his own, though that would probably be too stupid even for him to do, and I'm not going to waste my time rooting out, even at a first pass, who runs the AAARG! remailer. I just say I wouldn't be surprised, is all. :-). At the foundation, then, my point is still the same one that I started with: the same, well, idiots, tend use the same outbound remailer hops, usually to the exclusion of all other remailer nodes, and, oddly enough, to the exclusion of all other users of that particular remailer. It becomes quite easy then to filter them out, which is, frankly, nice, at least as far as I'm concerned. Besides Mr. AAARG!, another user of a certain Austrian remailer node comes to mind. Both of those gentlemen, if I were to only charitably call them such, do not vary their output remailers, much less do other potentially clueful things, like actually sign their messages, for instance. Obviously all this might have to do with finding enough working remailers to string together, and, of course, the lack of genuinely any easy to use mixmaster clients out there, even now, and not for actually trying, using a whole bunch of money in a couple of cases. I suppose, given the use of lots of remailers as a platform to heckle ostensibly reasonable discussion from the back benches, if not to actually stalk online and send poison-pen email, it's easy to find their difficulty of use a blessing; though like most people who care about such things, it doesn't help the cause of ubiquitous internet privacy too much. Maybe we need cash, or something. Someday. :-). Ultimately, I think it boils down to genuine gall. If someone like Mr. AAARG! would actually endeavor to instruct the residents of the cryptography list, or even cypherpunks :-), of the utility of shoving a particularly egregious bit of technological emetic down our collective throats, or even the throat of the general public, one would think he would have a better clue about remailer hygiene when he treated us to his current round of venturi-vaporised drivel. So, Mr. AARG! is, probably, just some advanced-degree moke who works at Intel, or is a Waveoid, or other such Wintel digital "rights" "management" IP-control fellow traveller, and, given the paucity of his nocturnal emissions from behind the Great Oz's Green Velvet Curtain, or, better, the elementary answers people here are forced to use to explain more rudimentary things than remailer operations to him, probably helps me, just a smidge, with my assertion about his probable clueless use of the remailer network. Cheers, RAH -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 7.5 iQA/AwUBPVX8J8PxH8jf3ohaEQJ0MgCgv3PLVPALWxBzYhkTfINn8jC3WkoAoJ+g nkXbBBPv5oaQVL4qTSP+T0Fu =zqRj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From jtrjtrjtr2001 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 11 02:53:05 2002 From: jtrjtrjtr2001 at yahoo.com (gfgs pedo) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 02:53:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Doubt on O notation. Message-ID: <20020811095305.58406.qmail@web21201.mail.yahoo.com> hi, I have problem understanding time complexity for the following problem I need to check if two strings are equal let string one s1=aaabbb and string two s2=aaabbb We place it on a single tape turing machine aaabbb aaabbb the book says it takes roughly 2n steps to match corresponding alphabet of s1 with s2,that much i understand. therefore the whole computation takes O(n^2) time. how is that,should n't be O(2n) the same if placed on a two tape turing machine is as shown tape 1: aaabbb tape2 : aaabbb and they are compared simultaneouly and have a time complexity of O(n) which is understandable. How ever i didnt get how we get O(n^2) in the previous case. In automata the number of sentential forms cannot exceed M=|p|+ |p^2| + ...+ |p|^(2|w|) where w is the length of the input string.p is the finite set of productions. I dont see how it is applicable here. pls help.Thank you. Regards Data. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com From rah at shipwright.com Sun Aug 11 00:33:37 2002 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 03:33:37 -0400 Subject: [dgc.chat] free? Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 3:36 PM +1000 8/11/02, David Hillary wrote: > I think that tax havens such as the Cayman Islands should be ranked > among the freest in the world. No taxes on business or individuals > for a start. Great environment for banking and commerce. Good > protection of property rights. Small non-interventionist > government. Clearly you've never met "Triumph", the Fabulous Crotch-Sniffing Caymanian Customs Wonder Dog at extreme close range, or heard the story about the expat's college age kid, actually born on Cayman, who was literally exiled from the island when the island constabulary "discovered" a marijuana seed or three in his summer-break rental car a few years back. I mean, his old man was some senior cheese at Global Crossing at the time, but this was back when they could do no wrong. If that's what they did to *his* kid, imagine what some poor former junk-bond-hustler might have to deal with someday for, say, the odd unauthorized Cuban nightlife excursion. A discretely folded twenty keeps the stamp off your passport on the ground in Havana, and a bottle of Maker's Mark goes a long way towards some interesting nocturnal diversion when you get there and all, but still, you can't help thinking that Uncle's going to come a-knockin', and that Cayman van's going to stop rockin' some day, and when it does, it ain't gonna be pretty. Closer to home, conceptually at least, a couple of cryptogeeken were hustled off and strip-searched, on the spot, when they landed on Grand Cayman for the Financial Cryptography conference there a couple of years ago. Like lots of cypherpunks, these guys were active shooters in the Bay Area, and they had stopped in Jamaica, Mon, for a few days on the way to Grand Cayman. Because they, and their stuff, reeked on both counts, they were given complementary colorectal examinations and an entertaining game of 20 questions, or two, courtesy of the Caymanian Federales, after the obligatory fun and games with a then-snarling Crotch-Sniffing Caymanian Wonder Dog. Heck, I had to completely unpack *all* my stuff for a nice, well-fed Caymanian customs lady just to get *out* of the country when I left. Besides, tax havens are being increasingly constrained as to their activities these days, because they cost the larger nation-states too much in the way of "escaped" "revenue", or at least the perception of same in the local "free" press. Obviously, if your money "there" isn't exchangeable into your money "here", it kind of defeats the purpose of keeping your money "there" in the first place, giving folks like FinCEN lots of leverage when financial treaties come up for renegotiation due to changes in technology, like on-line credit-card and securities clearing, or the odd governmental or quango re-org, like they are wont to do increasingly in the EU, and the US. As a result, the veil of secrecy went in Switzerland quite a while ago. The recent holocaust deposit thing was just the bride and groom on that particular wedding-cake, and, as goes Switzerland, so goes Luxembourg, and of course Lichtenstein, which itself is usually accessible only through Switzerland. Finally, of course, the Caymans themselves will cough up depositor lists whenever Uncle comes calling about one thing or another on an increasingly longer list of fishing pretexts. At this point, the "legal", state-backed pecuniary privacy pickings are kind of thin on the ground. I mean, I'm not sure I'd like to keep my money in, say, Vanuatu. Would you? Remember, this is a place where a bandana hanging on a string across an otherwise public road will close it down until the local erst-cannibal hunter-gatherer turned statutorily-permanent landowner figures out just what his new or imagined property rights are this afternoon. The point is, any cypherpunk worth his salt will tell you that only solution to financial or any other, privacy, is to make private transactions on the net, cheaper, and more secure, than "transparent" transactions currently are in meatspace. Then things get *real* interesting, and financial privacy -- and considerably more personal freedom -- will just be the icing on the wedding cake. Bride and groom action figures sold separately, of course. Cheers, RAH (Who went to FC2K at the Grand Cayman Marriott in February that year. Nice place, I liked Anguilla better though, at least at the time, and I haven't been back to either since. The beaches are certainly better in Anguilla, and the "private" banking system there is probably just as porous as Cayman's is, by this point. If I were to pick up and move Somewhere Free outside Your Friendly Neighborhood Unipolar Superpower, New Zealand is somewhere near the top of my list, and Chile would be next, though things change quickly out there in ballistic-missile flyover country. In that vein, who knows, maybe we're in for some kind of latter-day Peloponnesian irony, and *Russia* will end up the freest place on earth someday. Stranger things have happened in the last couple of decades, yes?) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 7.5 iQA/AwUBPVYS48PxH8jf3ohaEQKwtgCgw/XSwzauabEP/8jDvUVk/rgFdroAn0xf Owk90GoK+X5Pv+bGoKXCwzBK =1w9d -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' subscribe: send blank email to dgcchat-join at lists.goldmoney.com unsubscribe: send blank email to dgcchat-leave at lists.goldmoney.com digest: send an email to dgcchat-request at lists.goldmoney.com with "set yourname at yourdomain.com digest=on" in the message body --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From jtrjtrjtr2001 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 11 08:13:54 2002 From: jtrjtrjtr2001 at yahoo.com (gfgs pedo) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 08:13:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [CI] Re: Turing thesis(Incompleteness theorom) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020811151354.32309.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com> hi, thank you Mr. Jim,one more query, regarding Godel's incompleteness theorom. with reference to http://www.miskatonic.org/godel.html " G�del asks for the program and the circuit design of the UTM. The program may be complicated, but it can only be finitely long. Call the program P(UTM) for Program of the Universal Truth Machine. " we know that there are unprovable and provable statements and there is no way to distinguish all solvabe problems from unsolvable ones as you said below. > > > Also have can we distinguish between provable and > unprovable statements. > > That is an unsolvable problem if you are looking for > a general approach to > -any- statement, that -is- Godel's. > In godel's theorom,above mentioned,it says circuit design and programme must be finitely long. Is that necessary?we can't say for sure,right?Isn't it an unprovable statement which is made or more likely an assumption. if we say other wise,why has the programme to be finite? Thank you very much. Regards Data. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com From mv at cdc.gov Sun Aug 11 09:12:43 2002 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 09:12:43 -0700 Subject: Pakis needing killing Message-ID: <3D568CFB.E419335F@cdc.gov> "If somebody cannot produce some form of identification, he can't use the Internet. It's in the interest of law and order, and stopping terrorism," said Shahzada Alam, chairman of the Pakistan Telecommunications Authority, which regulates the Internet in Pakistan. http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20020805/ap_wo_en_po/pakistan_forbidden_internet_3 From gnu at toad.com Sun Aug 11 11:15:28 2002 From: gnu at toad.com (John Gilmore) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 11:15:28 -0700 Subject: Seth on TCPA at Defcon/Usenix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200208111815.g7BIFSq11030@new.toad.com> > It reminds me of an even better way for a word processor company to make > money: just scramble all your documents, then demand ONE MILLION DOLLARS > for the keys to decrypt them. The money must be sent to a numbered > Swiss account, and the software checks with a server to find out when > the money has arrived. Some of the proposals for what companies will > do with Palladium seem about as plausible as this one. Isn't this how Windows XP and Office XP work? They let you set up the system and fill it with your data for a while -- then lock up and won't let you access your locally stored data, until you put the computer on the Internet and "register" it with Microsoft. They charge less than a million dollars to unhand your data, but otherwise it looks to me like a very similar scheme. There's a first-person report about how Office XP made the computers donated for the 9/11 missing persons database useless after several days of data entry -- so the data was abandoned, and re-entered into a previous (non-DRM) Microsoft word processor. The report came through this very mailing list. See: http://www.mail-archive.com/cryptography at wasabisystems.com/msg02134.html This scenario of word processor vendors denying people access to their own documents until they do something to benefit the vendor is not just "plausible" -- it's happening here and now. John From paul at ciphergoth.org Sun Aug 11 03:38:06 2002 From: paul at ciphergoth.org (Paul Crowley) Date: 11 Aug 2002 11:38:06 +0100 Subject: Thanks, Lucky, for helping to kill gnutella In-Reply-To: AARG!Anonymous's message of "Fri, 9 Aug 2002 10:05:15 -0700" References: <8c25bf764b14de9e2d3d9cd24a6d49fb@aarg.net> Message-ID: <87adntllyp.fsf@saltationism.subnet.hedonism.cluefactory.org.uk> AARG!Anonymous writes: > Be sure and send a note to the Gnutella people reminding them of all > you're doing for them, okay, Lucky? Do the Gnutella people share your feelings on this matter? I'd be surprised. -- __ Paul Crowley \/ o\ sig at paul.ciphergoth.org /\__/ http://www.ciphergoth.org/ From rah at shipwright.com Sun Aug 11 09:31:56 2002 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 12:31:56 -0400 Subject: [dgc.chat] free? Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text From sws at cs.dartmouth.edu Sun Aug 11 09:35:12 2002 From: sws at cs.dartmouth.edu (Sean Smith) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 12:35:12 -0400 Subject: Thanks, Lucky, for helping to kill gnutella In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 09 Aug 2002 10:05:15 PDT." <8c25bf764b14de9e2d3d9cd24a6d49fb@aarg.net> Message-ID: <200208111635.g7BGZCk01872@chipotle.cs.dartmouth.edu> Actually, our group at Dartmouth has an NSF "Trusted Computing" grant to do this, using the IBM 4758 (probably with a different OS) as the hardware. We've been calling the project "Marianas", since it involves a chain of islands. --Sean >If only there were a technology in which clients could verify and yes, >even trust, each other remotely. Some way in which a digital certificate >on a program could actually be verified, perhaps by some kind of remote, >trusted hardware device. This way you could know that a remote system was >actually running a well-behaved client before admitting it to the net. >This would protect Gnutella from not only the kind of opportunistic >misbehavior seen today, but the future floods, attacks and DOSing which >will be launched in earnest once the content companies get serious about >taking this network down. -- Sean W. Smith, Ph.D. sws at cs.dartmouth.edu http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~sws/ (has ssl link to pgp key) Department of Computer Science, Dartmouth College, Hanover NH USA --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From juicy at melontraffickers.com Sun Aug 11 12:51:05 2002 From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A.Melon) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 12:51:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: On the outright laughability of internet "democracy" Message-ID: <7b1f2493990e67b10132b177228f1a1a@melontraffickers.com> On Sun, 11 Aug 2002 13:22:15 -0400, you wrote: > > At 4:35 PM +0200 on 8/11/02, Anonymous wrote: > > > > Next, the "internet" boogeyman. > > Nope. Just the clueless "only knows one austrian remailer" boogeyman. Watch > me make him go away: > > <*Plonk!*> Based on your inability or unwillingness to address the issues identified specifically, that is pretty good course of action on your part. I would think you might be interested in going deeper, as "Blind signatures for untraceable payments" is directly applicable to both digital settlement and digital voting. See http://www.acm.org/crossroads/xrds2-4/voting.html for an interesting little article of introduction about the topic. And there are many others more current and deep. Those issues, remaining unaddressed by you, include: "The "sold vote" boogeyman". You need to submit evidence that "anonymous" "internet" voting is more likely to be fraudulent than paper, voter-present by mail voting. You have submitted none, and the "cryptography" word is insufficient to scare me off. The "bogus digital voter registration" boogeyman. You may also wish to show how digital voter registration cards would be more likely to be bogus than "Motor Voter, no-id required" registration cards. Good luck. The "crypto" boogeyman. I challenge you to show that current, published crypto voting protocols cannot accomplish the following: 1. one digital sig, one vote, the first one, and the others are discarded 2. no dig signature, no vote 3. no dig voter registration, no dig sig 4. anonymity, i.e., no connectibility between the voter's choice and his identity. 5. auditability, i.e., connection between each voting "lever throw" and a dig sig for the current vote. Next, the "internet" boogeyman. It's just a pipe/wire/whatever. Bits. Don't be afraid. If the bits are properly signed, no problem and whether "internet" bits or voter-machine-punched-paper-tape-bits is irrelevant." They are not strengthened or weakened by the mail server applied to their transmission, by the way. Cheers! From rah at shipwright.com Sun Aug 11 10:22:15 2002 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 13:22:15 -0400 Subject: On the outright laughability of internet "democracy" In-Reply-To: <34859a787b1b29f3ea1528ba4e452fdb@remailer.privacy.at> References: <34859a787b1b29f3ea1528ba4e452fdb@remailer.privacy.at> Message-ID: At 4:35 PM +0200 on 8/11/02, Anonymous wrote: > Next, the "internet" boogeyman. Nope. Just the clueless "only knows one austrian remailer" boogeyman. Watch me make him go away: <*Plonk!*> Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From rah at shipwright.com Sun Aug 11 10:30:46 2002 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 13:30:46 -0400 Subject: Thanks, Lucky, for helping to kill gnutella In-Reply-To: <200208111635.g7BGZCk01872@chipotle.cs.dartmouth.edu> References: <200208111635.g7BGZCk01872@chipotle.cs.dartmouth.edu> Message-ID: I'm genuinely sorry, but I couldn't resist this... At 12:35 PM -0400 on 8/11/02, Sean Smith wrote: > Actually, our group at Dartmouth has an NSF "Trusted Computing" > grant to do this, using the IBM 4758 (probably with a different > OS) as the hardware. > > We've been calling the project "Marianas", since it involves a > chain of islands. ...and not the world's deepest hole, sitting right next door? ;-) Cheers, RAH > --Sean > >>If only there were a technology in which clients could verify and >>yes, even trust, each other remotely. Some way in which a digital >>certificate on a program could actually be verified, perhaps by >>some kind of remote, trusted hardware device. This way you could >>know that a remote system was actually running a well-behaved >>client before admitting it to the net. This would protect Gnutella >>from not only the kind of opportunistic misbehavior seen today, but >>the future floods, attacks and DOSing which will be launched in >>earnest once the content companies get serious about taking this >>network down. -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From ben at algroup.co.uk Sun Aug 11 08:03:54 2002 From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 16:03:54 +0100 Subject: dangers of TCPA/palladium References: Message-ID: <3D567CDA.40709@algroup.co.uk> AARG!Anonymous wrote: > Adam Back writes: > > >>- Palladium is a proposed OS feature-set based on the TCPA hardware >>(Microsoft) > > > Actually there seem to be some hardware differences between TCPA and > Palladium. TCPA relies on a TPM, while Palladium uses some kind of > new CPU mode. Palladium also includes some secure memory, a concept > which does not exist in TCPA. This is correct. Palladium has "ring -1", and memory that is only accessible to ring -1 (or I/O initiated by ring -1). Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ Available for contract work. "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From ben at algroup.co.uk Sun Aug 11 08:10:44 2002 From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 16:10:44 +0100 Subject: dangers of TCPA/palladium References: Message-ID: <3D567E74.90701@algroup.co.uk> Mike Rosing wrote: >>Why exactly is this so much more of a threat than, say, flash BIOS >>upgrades? The BIOS has a lot more power over your machine than the >>TPM does. > > > The difference is fundamental: I can change every bit of flash in my BIOS. > I can not change *anything* in the TPM. *I* control my BIOS. IF, and > only IF, I can control the TPM will I trust it to extend my trust to > others. The purpose of TCPA as spec'ed is to remove my control and > make the platform "trusted" to one entity. That entity has the master > key to the TPM. > > Now, if the spec says I can install my own key into the TPM, then yes, > it is a very useful tool. It would be fantastic in all the portables > that have been stolen from the FBI for example. Assuming they use a > password at turn on, and the TPM is used to send data over the net, > then they'd know where all their units are and know they weren't > compromised (or how badly compromised anyway). > > But as spec'ed, it is very seriously flawed. Although the outcome _may_ be like this, your understanding of the TPM is seriously flawed - it doesn't prevent your from running whatever you want, but what it does do is allow a remote machine to confirm what you have chosen to run. It helps to argue from a correct starting point. Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ Available for contract work. "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From sws at cs.dartmouth.edu Sun Aug 11 13:17:34 2002 From: sws at cs.dartmouth.edu (Sean Smith) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 16:17:34 -0400 Subject: Thanks, Lucky, for helping to kill gnutella In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 11 Aug 2002 13:30:46 EDT." Message-ID: <200208112017.g7BKHYE02439@chipotle.cs.dartmouth.edu> i guess it's appropriate that the world's deepest hole is next to something labelled a "trust territory" :) --Sean :) --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From rah at shipwright.com Sun Aug 11 13:18:32 2002 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 16:18:32 -0400 Subject: On the outright laughability of internet "democracy" In-Reply-To: <7b1f2493990e67b10132b177228f1a1a@melontraffickers.com> References: <7b1f2493990e67b10132b177228f1a1a@melontraffickers.com> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 12:51 PM -0700 on 8/11/02, A.Austrian.Idiot single hops yet another remailer and wrote: > I would think you might be interested in going deeper, as "Blind > signatures for untraceable payments" is directly applicable to > both digital settlement and digital voting. Yes. Of course. And, if you actually read it, or even just thought about it instead of spewing oppositional bullshit to everything you disagree with politically, :-), you'd soon realize that you can't actually control an truly anonymous voting scheme any more than you can control a truly anonymous bearer asset. Like equity, an anonymous vote is completely salable. In short, sir, please to fuck off, until you actually know what you're talking about. Cheers, RAH -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 7.5 iQA/AwUBPVbGfsPxH8jf3ohaEQKaCACg5imhi38mKjBmPiX1uo4V2l77PiQAoK4K Md2o5nPZy57vzqZNFDuJdFcP =4bGV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From rah at shipwright.com Sun Aug 11 13:22:07 2002 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 16:22:07 -0400 Subject: Thanks, Lucky, for helping to kill gnutella In-Reply-To: <200208112017.g7BKHYE02439@chipotle.cs.dartmouth.edu> References: <200208112017.g7BKHYE02439@chipotle.cs.dartmouth.edu> Message-ID: At 4:17 PM -0400 on 8/11/02, Sean Smith wrote: > i guess it's appropriate that the world's deepest > hole is next to something labelled a "trust territory" :) Tears run down my face, I laughed so much. My cheeks hurt, I'm smiling so hard... Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From remailer at xganon.com Sun Aug 11 14:33:28 2002 From: remailer at xganon.com (xganon) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 16:33:28 -0500 Subject: On the outright laughability of internet "democracy" Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Aug 2002 16:18:32 -0400, you wrote: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > At 12:51 PM -0700 on 8/11/02, A.Austrian.Idiot single hops yet > another remailer and wrote: Namecalling. Possibly your strongest argumentation? > > I would think you might be interested in going deeper, as "Blind > > signatures for untraceable payments" is directly applicable to > > both digital settlement and digital voting. > > Yes. Of course. And, if you actually read it, or even just thought > about it instead of spewing oppositional bullshit to everything you > disagree with politically, :-), Must have touched quite a raw nerve here. My thanks for your not "spewing oppositional bullshit". And what, pray tell, am I disagreeing with "politically"? > you'd soon realize that you can't > actually control an truly anonymous voting scheme any more than you > can control a truly anonymous bearer asset. Like equity, an anonymous > vote is completely salable. Read first, spew later. > > In short, sir, please to fuck off, until you actually know what > you're talking about. Another of your better argumentation. It is difficult to choose between your vulgar manner or your avoidance of facts, as the better explanation of the failure of your "Internet Bearer Underwriting" ventures. Cheers! From nobody at remailer.privacy.at Sun Aug 11 07:35:08 2002 From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 16:35:08 +0200 (CEST) Subject: On the outright laughability of internet "democracy" Message-ID: <34859a787b1b29f3ea1528ba4e452fdb@remailer.privacy.at> On Sat, 10 Aug 2002 17:06:26 -0400, you wrote: > Go look up discussions on google about cryptographic protocols for > internet voting. It just ain't possible without the most strict, > obscene, biometric, draconian, "is a person", non-anonymous methods > you ever saw. Sure it is. The measures, if any, taken to insure that the "person" being granted a "digital voter registration card" is a "qualified voter" can be as lax or as stringent as the issuer may require. There is no reason that they would need be more stringent than current process, which, in the US, prohibit voter registration staff from requiring verification of identity. See the "Motor Voter" law. > > The point to democracy, in the industrial/agricultural political > sense, is one man, one vote. One *anonymous* vote. Except in Chicago, etc., etc. > On the net, > paradoxically, that is completely impossible. Votes can be sold. No different from the current arrangement. Voting in many jurisdictions can be done today by mail. How would a digital vote, using cryptographic protocols to insure anonymity, and authenticity (the registered person who was issued the digital voter registration has digitally signed the vote) be less likely to be "sold" than a mailed in vote? And pardon the political comment, but almost all votes are sold now, as in the United States the democratic custom has declined to using votes essentially to transfer wealth from earners to voting blocs. > If > you fix it so that you can't sell votes without forgoing your > identity -- and thus your freedom -- and physically showing up > somewhere to vote, or at least proving that you have a device that > identifies you as a voter in the most immediate terms possible, you > can sell your vote, anonymously, on the net, for whatever the market > will bear, and *that* person can *re*sell your vote, and so on, just > like it was voting rights to a share of stock. It is quite simpler to do such fraud with mail in votes, or even "buy me a drink and I'll vote however you'd like", or "yes, this is my pictureless voter registration card, and I'm here to vote". > That bit of > cryptographic mobiosity is probably down at the semantic level of > consistency versus completeness. Somewhere, Goedel and Russell are > laughing. A laugh a day keeps the economists away. > > The net result, of course, of any kind of truly anonymous internet > voting, is anarchocapitalism, where people sell their voting control > over assets, including political "assets", over and over in secondary > markets, on a continuing basis, in real-time. No political small-d > democrat (or small-r republican, or small-l libertarian, whatever) > I've ever heard of would call that a "true" democracy. The "sold vote" boogeyman". You need to submit evidence that "anonymous" "internet" voting is more likely to be fraudulent than paper, voter-present by mail voting. You have submitted none, and the "cryptography" word is insufficient to scare me off. The "bogus digital voter registration" boogeyman. You may also wish to show how digital voter registration cards would be more likely to be bogus than "Motor Voter, no-id required" registration cards. Good luck. The "crypto" boogeyman. I challenge you to show that current, published crypto voting protocols cannot accomplish the following: 1. one digital sig, one vote, the first one, and the others are discarded 2. no dig signature, no vote 3. no dig voter registration, no dig sig 4. anonymity, i.e., no connectibility between the voter's choice and his identity. 5. auditability, i.e., connection between each voting "lever throw" and a dig sig for the current vote. Next, the "internet" boogeyman. It's just a pipe/wire/whatever. Bits. Don't be afraid. If the bits are properly signed, no problem and whether "internet" bits or voter-machine-punched-paper-tape-bits is irrelevant. From mburns at tamerlane.ca Sun Aug 11 15:08:00 2002 From: mburns at tamerlane.ca (Mark) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 18:08:00 -0400 Subject: On alliances and enemies. References: Message-ID: <006e01c24183$930fc280$0300a8c0@smith> Jim Choate said: > > > > I don't see Stalin/Hitler, I see; > > > > > > > > Standard Oil/ > > > > Department of Transporation/ > > > > Interstate Commerce Commission) > > > > General Motors/ > > > > Ford/ > > > > and so forth. > > > > > > You draw a false distinction. And what is your position on IBM, Hitler, their interaction during WWII, etc? From zenadsl6186 at zen.co.uk Sun Aug 11 11:09:22 2002 From: zenadsl6186 at zen.co.uk (Peter Fairbrother) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 19:09:22 +0100 Subject: TCPA/Palladium -- likely future implications (Re: dangers of TCPA/palladium) In-Reply-To: <20020809221356.A637432@exeter.ac.uk> Message-ID: Adam Back wrote: [...] > - It is always the case that targetted people can have hardware > attacks perpetrated against them. (Keyboard sniffers placed during > court authorised break-in as FBI has used in mob case of PGP using > Mafiosa [1]). [...] > [1] "FBI Bugs Keyboard of PGP-Using Alleged Mafioso", 6 Dec 2000, > slashdot That was a software keylogger (actually two software keyloggers), not hardware. (IMO Scarfo's lawyers should never have dealt, assuming the evidence was necessary for a conviction, but the FBI statement about the techniques used was probably too obfuscated for them - it took me a good week to understand it. I emailed them, but got no reply. Incidently, Nicky Scarfo used his father's prison number for the password, so a well researched directed dictionary attack would have worked anyway.) The FBI reputedly can (usually, on Windows boxen) now install similar software keyloggers remotely, without needing to break in. -- Peter Fairbrother --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From beemermail at yahoo.com Sun Aug 11 21:38:11 2002 From: beemermail at yahoo.com (Eric Beemer) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 21:38:11 -0700 Subject: OPPORTUNITY KNOCKS!!! Message-ID: <200208120438.g7C4c2R21505@waste.minder.net> Your new job: Stop losing all your money to the house and BECOME THE HOUSE!!! This new revolutionary casino allows the players to deal the games. Get the house odds in your favor. You can deal blackjack, roulette, slots, video poker, pai gow poker, caribbean poker, baccarat, or war. For a limited time, you can now get a 200% credits bonus by signing up! 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From adam at homeport.org Sun Aug 11 18:58:26 2002 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 21:58:26 -0400 Subject: Signing as one member of a set of keys In-Reply-To: <20020809201115.A643604@exeter.ac.uk>; from adam@cypherspace.org on Fri, Aug 09, 2002 at 08:11:15PM +0100 References: <20020809201115.A643604@exeter.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20020811215826.A51796@lightship.internal.homeport.org> Of course, the paranoid amonsgt us now believe that Mr. Back wrote the code, and is engaging in a little misdirection below. "Thanks for making the analysis easy!" ;) On Fri, Aug 09, 2002 at 08:11:15PM +0100, Adam Back wrote: | Very nice. | | Nice plausible set of candidate authors also: | | pub 1022/5AC7B865 1992/12/01 loki at obscura.com | pub 1024/2B48F6F5 1996/04/10 Ian Goldberg | pub 1024/97558A1D 1994/01/10 Pr0duct Cypher | pub 1024/2719AF35 1995/05/13 Ben Laurie | pub 1024/58214C37 1992/09/08 Hal Finney <74076.1041 at compuserve.com> | pub 1024/C8002BD1 1997/03/04 Eric Young | pub 1024/FBBB8AB1 1994/05/07 Colin Plumb | | Wonder if we can figure out who is most likely author based on coding | style from such a small set. | | It has (8 char) TABs but other wise BSD indentation style (BSD | normally 4 spaces). Also someone who likes triply indirected pointers | ***blah in there. Has local variables inside even *if code blocks* | eg, inside main() (most people avoid that, preferring to declare | variables at the top of a function, and historically I think some | older gcc / gdb couldn't debug those variables if I recall). Very | funky use of goto in getpgppkt, hmmm. Somewhat concise coding and | variable names. | | Off the cuff guess based on coding without looking at samples of code | to remind, probably Colin or Ian. | | Of course (Lance Cottrell/Ian Goldberg/Pr0duct Cypher/Ben Laurie/Hal | Finney/Eric Young/Colin Plumb) possibly deviated or mimicked one of | their coding styles. Kind of interesting to see a true nym in there | also. | | Also the Cc -- Coderpunks lives? I think the Cc coderpunks might be a | clue also, I think some of these people would know it died. I think | that points more at Colin. | | Other potential avenue might be implementation mistake leading to | failure of the scheme to robustly make undecidable which of the set is | the true author, given alpha code. | | Adam | | On Fri, Aug 09, 2002 at 03:52:56AM +0000, Anonymous User wrote: | > This program can be used by anonymous contributors to release partial | > information about their identity - they can show that they are someone | > from a list of PGP key holders, without revealing which member of the | > list they are. Maybe it can help in the recent controvery over the | > identity of anonymous posters. It's a fairly low-level program that | > should be wrapped in a nicer UI. I'll send a couple of perl scripts | > later that make it easier to use. | -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From rah at shipwright.com Sun Aug 11 19:07:11 2002 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 22:07:11 -0400 Subject: On the outright laughability of internet "democracy" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 4:33 PM -0500 on 8/11/02, the Austrian one-hop-wonder changed remailers again, jumped out of the kill-file, followed me around the mail list and started humping my leg with: > Namecalling. Possibly your strongest argumentation? Not at all. I really do believe the word "idiot" is most appropriate to your level of intelligence, and that makes it merely an observation of fact on my part. However, to honor your persistence, I will call you names later, since you really want it so bad. But, first... > Must have touched quite a raw nerve here. My thanks for your not > "spewing oppositional bullshit". And what, pray tell, am I > disagreeing with "politically"? You are clearly a statist. In my autodydactic but still fairly practiced opinion, an idiot statist. "Statist" because apparently you've never seen a nation-state you didn't want to suck up to. "Idiot", because when someone makes a statement of fact, like I did several times in a row in this thread, you refute it with something other than reason. Usually a repetition of the same thing over and over, even when it clearly doesn't work for you. Certainly the very definition of lunacy, if it's not actual idiocy. There. How's that for a characterization of your disagreeable politics? >> you'd soon realize that you can't >> actually control an truly anonymous voting scheme any more than >> you can control a truly anonymous bearer asset. Like equity, an >> anonymous vote is completely salable. > > Read first, spew later. [This is, ladies, and gentlemen, exactly what *I* would call "oppositional bullshit". Notice that he merely said the logical equivalent of "I know you are, but what am I?" Oppositional. And Bullshit. Check, and Check. Notice he says nothing, including his previously ignored and recursively regurgitated "refutation" of that claim at the beginning of the thread, that actually counters what I've said all along, copied above in the interest of completeness, if not consistency, above. But enough of that, well, idiocy. Now, boys and girls, let's have some fun, shall we? He thinks I'm insulting. Clearly he hasn't been here long enough. :-) First a, um, warm-up. Where were we. Oh, yes. Here we are...] > Read first, spew later. Cranky, Mr. One-Hop? Whatsa matter? Your ancient mother give you a friction burn in the sack last night? K-Y's cheap, you know. You should try it. I hear it even, um, comes in flavors these days... [...and, as promised, the main event...] >> In short, sir, please to fuck off, until you actually know what >> you're talking about. > > Another of your better argumentation. It is difficult to choose > between your vulgar manner or your avoidance of facts, Allow me to argue even better then, in a matter you seem to appreciate most. You, sir, are an imbecile. A Poltroon. A Spittlelicker and a toady [Thanks to Patrick O'Brien...]. [Postmodern anti-imperialist] A statist lackey (sorry Ryan :-)). A straw-felching pederast [my apologies to all felchers, straw-using, and otherwise, and, of course, to pederasts everywhere...] Ah, the pain of monolinguality. You've said it yourself, haven't you? I really should learn to use other languages, as my life would be so much richer. In that, um, vein, and in your multilingual honor, I hope I'm forgiven if I got some help,. The following are compliments of the good folks at : Yiddish -- Yutz. Putz. (I'm sorry you'd don't qualify for "Schmuck", Mr. One-Hop, much less "Schlong", but, by the way you acquit yourself here on cypherpunks, that would be off by an order or two of magnitude. Or, heh, three. :-). Maybe it got dwarfed by friction burn, or something. Better put some ice on that?) Schlemeil, Schlmazel, [I feel like Laverne and Shirley, here...] Mishugena. Gayn Cacken Ofn yam. French -- Lhche mon cul. [I think that one says it all, don't you think? The French have *such* a classy expression for *everything*.] German -- Depp (sound familiar?), Arschgesicht, Leck mich am Arsch [there's an echo in here...], Hosenscheisser, and, probably most applicable to your career and qualifications, Arschkriecher [cf "Toady", above]. Afrikaans [vaguely brutal, and to the point] -- Poephol. Japanese [cute, in a "Hello Kitty" kind of way] -- kisama. Cantonese [phonetic] -- lay da yuen fay gay mm sai sou. Mandarin [also phonetic] -- Liu mang. Finnish [in honor of Linus] -- Ditisi nai poroja! Dutch [as one would expect :-), they're particularly creative, but I like a little irony, myself] -- droogkloot. And, finally, Latin [a classic, rendered in a classic tongue, and in memory of your aforementioned chronic lack of nightly lubrication]-- tua mater. > as the better explanation of the failure of your "Internet Bearer > Underwriting" ventures. We'll see, I suppose. At least I haven't quit yet. Nonetheless, it's a safe bet that as much as I'm too stupid to quit trying to make IBUC work, you will *always* be more stupid than I am. Now, somehow, I really feel like I got the better deal, here. Tell ya what, One-Hop: if I do get IBUC's arm out of the shark and sewn back on, I'll send you a little remuneration for all the entertainment you've provided all of us this evening. So, if and when IBUC actually *does* work, and given your ironic predilection for book-entry transactions and the use of violent government enforcement of non-repudiation, where, exactly, do you want me to send the check, and who do I make it out to? ;-) Cheers, RAH -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 7.5 iQA/AwUBPVcYR8PxH8jf3ohaEQKzRwCg3RlP5nZu/rxRBX566zl/wAEOt7wAoItU PC5f0dwMuWUKnYLJ3EnGLAbi =O6Z1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From bal at farcaster.com Mon Aug 12 00:27:22 2002 From: bal at farcaster.com (Brian A. LaMacchia) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 00:27:22 -0700 Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA References: <004601c23d28$791bb3c0$6801a8c0@xpserver> Message-ID: <007101c241d2$487aa510$0400010a@bal600> I just want to point out that, as far as Palladium is concerned, we really don't care how the keys got onto the machine. Certain *applications* written on top of Palladium will probably care, but all the hardware & the security kernel really care about is making sure that secrets are only divulged to the code that had them encrypted in the first place. It's all a big trust management problem (or a series of trust management problems) -- applications that are going to rely on SCP keys to protect secrets for them are going to want some assurances about where the keys live and whether there's a copy outside the SCP. I can certainly envision potential applications that would want guarantees that the key was generated on the SCP & never left, and I can see other applications that want guarantees that the key has a copy sitting on another SCP on the other side of the building. So the complexity isn't in how the keys get initialized on the SCP (hey, it could be some crazy little hobbit named Mel who runs around to every machine and puts them in with a magic wand). The complexity is in the keying infrastructure and the set of signed statements (certificates, for lack of a better word) that convey information about how the keys were generated & stored. Those statements need to be able to represent to other applications what protocols were followed and precautions taken to protect the private key. Assuming that there's something like a cert chain here, the root of this chain chould be an OEM, an IHV, a user, a federal agency, your company, etc. Whatever that root is, the application that's going to divulge secrets to the SCP needs to be convinced that the key can be trusted (in the security sense) not to divulge data encrypted to it to third parties. Palladium needs to look at the hardware certificates and reliably tell (under user control) what they are. Anyone can decide if they trust the system based on the information given; Palladium simply guarantees that it won't tell anyone your secrets without your explicit request.. --bal P.S. I'm not sure that I actually *want* the ability to extract the private key from an SCP after it's been loaded, because presumably if I could ask for the private key then a third party doing a black-bag job on my PC could also ask for it. I think what I want is the ability to zeroize the SCP, remove all state stored within it, and cause new keys to be generated on-chip. So long as I can zero the chip whenever I want (or zero part of it, or whatever) I can eliminate the threat posed by the manufacturer who initialized the SCP in the first place. Lucky Green wrote: > Ray wrote: >> >>> From: "James A. Donald" >>> Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 20:51:24 -0700 >> >>> On 29 Jul 2002 at 15:35, AARG! Anonymous wrote: >>>> both Palladium and TCPA deny that they are designed to restrict >>>> what applications you run. The TPM FAQ at >>>> http://www.trustedcomputing.org/docs/TPM_QA_071802.pdf reads >>>> .... >>> >>> They deny that intent, but physically they have that capability. >> >> To make their denial credible, they could give the owner >> access to the private key of the TPM/SCP. But somehow I >> don't think that jibes with their agenda. > > Probably not surprisingly to anybody on this list, with the exception > of potentially Anonymous, according to the TCPA's own TPM Common > Criteria Protection Profile, the TPM prevents the owner of a TPM from > exporting the TPM's internal key. The ability of the TPM to keep the > owner of a PC from reading the private key stored in the TPM has been > evaluated to E3 (augmented). For the evaluation certificate issued by > NIST, see: > > http://niap.nist.gov/cc-scheme/PPentries/CCEVS-020016-VR-TPM.pdf > >> If I buy a lock I expect that by demonstrating ownership I >> can get a replacement key or have a locksmith legally open it. > > It appears the days when this was true are waning. At least in the PC > platform domain. > > --Lucky > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > The Cryptography Mailing List > Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to > majordomo at wasabisystems.com From anonymous at cotsebay.cotse.net Sun Aug 11 20:15:13 2002 From: anonymous at cotsebay.cotse.net (Niemand Nirgendwo) Date: 12 Aug 2002 03:15:13 -0000 Subject: On the outright laughability of internet "democracy" Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Aug 2002 22:07:11 -0400, R. A. Hettinga wrote: 160 lines, 1,150 words, 6,393 characters, all insisting on describing his being guthooked, sinker eating, line chewing and flopping up into the greasy bilge, furiously spewing offense and defense, in serious, righteous and angry pursuit of the diaphanous illusion of anoned bait-spilth, becoming clearly the easiest, but also the lowest calorie catch o' the day. Back over the side with you, little fellow. Good fish. Thank you for playing. From starrgazerr at earthlink.net Mon Aug 12 06:09:34 2002 From: starrgazerr at earthlink.net (amanda stone) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 09:09:34 -0400 Subject: joining Message-ID: <000801c24201$866bafc0$0201a8c0@0016223629> i would like to join your club my name is amanda stone d.o.b. 11-2-74 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 384 bytes Desc: not available URL: From schear at lvcm.com Mon Aug 12 10:20:43 2002 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 10:20:43 -0700 Subject: BIND-PE Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020812101523.04526050@pop3.lvcm.com> BIND-PE is a "personal use" automatically installed DNS (Domain Name System) caching only name server. Similar to (but more efficient) than using your default ISP DNS servers. BIND-PE is a complete DNS Server based on the "ISC BIND 9.2.1" engine. BIND-PE once installed will act as a fully recursive and caching multi-threaded DNS Server (default), with persistent cache capabilities (cache will be maintained between reboots), this will speed up your Internet resolving queries and make name resolutions much more reliable. BIND-PE Version 1.0 distro is aimed at home/SOHO users on WinNT4 SP6, Win2000 and WinXP workstations. BIND-PE simplifies the task of installing and correctly configuring the DNS service using a completely custom BIND compile for WinNT Operating Systems with an automated "One-Click" setup process for Dial-up, Cable modem, and DSL networks for workstations. Post-install manual changes to configurations are compatible with the standard ISC BIND 9 configuration syntax and examples. For your convenience, a Control Panel similar to BIND 8 versions is active and included with on screen data details (instead of write to file). All standard as well as new TLD's (.aero etc.) are included and accessible for DNS name resolutions and browsing. Alternate TLD's like http://BBC.news and http://Atlantic.Ocean (almost 200 additional TLD's) websites which were not normally available in Legacy setups will now be viewable in browsers. http://ntcanuck.com/ From declan at well.com Mon Aug 12 07:29:32 2002 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 10:29:32 -0400 Subject: Washington DC evacuation plan... for federal employees Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020812102921.01cad0f0@mail.well.com> 1. Government creates new Washington evacuation plan By Jason Peckenpaugh The federal government has created a new procedure for evacuating federal employees in Washington in the case of possible terrorist attacks on the nation's capital. The protocol, which took effect in May, tells who can decide to evacuate federal employees from agencies and how the government will communicate the decision to employees and to city and state agencies that would be affected by a mass exodus of civil servants from Washington. It is an attempt to improve on the ad hoc process used on Sept. 11, when the Office of Personnel Management closed federal agencies without first notifying state and transit officials in the Washington area. "Basically the only emergency plan that was available that this area had [on Sept. 11] was the snow emergency plan," said Scott Hatch, OPM's director of communications. The new protocol was designed to handle federal evacuations in Washington, but could be used to make evacuation decisions for civil servants in other cities, he said. Full story: http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0802/080902p1.htm Return to Top From remailer at aarg.net Mon Aug 12 10:55:19 2002 From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 10:55:19 -0700 Subject: Palladium: technical limits and implications Message-ID: <699bcf9a15f57cec8e85fb08c0c02652@aarg.net> Adam Back writes: > +---------------+------------+ > | trusted-agent | user mode | > | space | app space | > | (code +------------+ > | compartment) | supervisor | > | | mode / OS | > +---------------+------------+ > | ring -1 / TOR | > +----------------------------+ > | hardware / SCP key manager | > +----------------------------+ I don't think this works. According to Peter Biddle, the TOR can be launched even days after the OS boots. It does not underly the ordinary user mode apps and the supervisor mode system call handlers and device drivers. +---------------+------------+ | trusted-agent | user mode | | space | app space | | (code +------------+ | compartment) | supervisor | | | mode / OS | +---+ +---------------+------------+ |SCP|---| ring -1 / TOR | +---+ +---------------+ This is more how I would see it. The SCP is more like a peripheral device, a crypto co-processor, that is managed by the TOR. Earlier you quoted Seth's blog: | The nub is a kind of trusted memory manager, which runs with more | privilege than an operating system kernel. The nub also manages access | to the SCP. as justification for putting the nub (TOR) under the OS. But I think in this context "more privilege" could just refer to the fact that it is in the secure memory, which is only accessed by this ring--1 or ring-0 or whatever you want to call it. It doesn't follow that the nub has anything to do with the OS proper. If the OS can run fine without it, as I think you agreed, then why would the entire architecture have to reorient itself once the TOR is launched? In other words, isn't my version simpler, as it adjoins the column at the left to the pre-existing column at the right, when the TOR launches, days after boot? Doesn't it require less instantaneous, on-the-fly, reconfiguration of the entire structure of the Windows OS at the moment of TOR launch? And what, if anything, does my version fail to accomplish that we know that Palladium can do? > Integrity Metrics in a given level are computed by the level below. > > The TOR starts Trusted Agents, the Trusted Agents are outside the OS > control. Therefore a remote application based on remote attestation > can know about the integrity of the trusted-agent, and TOR. > > ring -1/TOR is computed by SCP/hardware; Trusted Agent is computed by > TOR; I had thought the hardware might also produce the metrics for trusted agents, but you could be right that it is the TOR which does so. That would be consistent with the "incremental extension of trust" philosophy which many of these systems seem to follow. > The parallel stack to the right: OS is computed by TOR; Application is > computed OS. No, that doesn't make sense. Why would the TOR need to compute a metric of the OS? Peter has said that Palladium does not give information about other apps running on your machine: : Note that in Pd no one but the user can find out the totality of what SW is : running except for the nub (aka TOR, or trusted operating root) and any : required trusted services. So a service could say "I will only communicate : with this app" and it will know that the app is what it says it is and : hasn't been perverted. The service cannot say "I won't communicate with this : app if this other app is running" because it has no way of knowing for sure : if the other app isn't running. > So for general applications you still have to trust the OS, but the OS > could itself have it's integrity measured by the TOR. Of course given > the rate of OS exploits especially in Microsoft products, it seems > likley that the aspect of the OS that checks integrity of loaded > applications could itself be tampered with using a remote exploit. Nothing Peter or anyone else has said indicates that this is a property of Palladium, as far as I can remember. > Probably the latter problem is the reason Microsoft introduced ring -1 > in palladium (it seems to be missing in TCPA). No, I think it is there to prevent debuggers and supervisor-mode drivers from manipulating secure code. TCPA is more of a whole-machine spec dealing with booting an OS, so it doesn't have to deal with the question of running secure code next to insecure code. From remailer at aarg.net Mon Aug 12 11:15:10 2002 From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 11:15:10 -0700 Subject: dangers of TCPA/palladium Message-ID: <93b2dd7731fbd09e50dd760ee716afb9@aarg.net> Mike Rosing wrote: > The difference is fundamental: I can change every bit of flash in my BIOS. > I can not change *anything* in the TPM. *I* control my BIOS. IF, and > only IF, I can control the TPM will I trust it to extend my trust to > others. The purpose of TCPA as spec'ed is to remove my control and > make the platform "trusted" to one entity. That entity has the master > key to the TPM. > > Now, if the spec says I can install my own key into the TPM, then yes, > it is a very useful tool. It would be fantastic in all the portables > that have been stolen from the FBI for example. Assuming they use a > password at turn on, and the TPM is used to send data over the net, > then they'd know where all their units are and know they weren't > compromised (or how badly compromised anyway). > > But as spec'ed, it is very seriously flawed. Ben Laurie replied: > Although the outcome _may_ be like this, your understanding of the TPM > is seriously flawed - it doesn't prevent your from running whatever you > want, but what it does do is allow a remote machine to confirm what you > have chosen to run. David Wagner commented: > I don't understand your objection. It doesn't look to me like Rosing > said anything incorrect. Did I miss something? > > It doesn't look like he ever claimed that TCPA directly prevents one from > running what you want to; rather, he claimed that its purpose (or effect) > is to reduce his control, to the benefit of others. His claims appear > to be accurate, according to the best information I've seen. I don't believe that is an accurate paraphrase of what Mike Rosing said. He said the purpose (not effect) was to remove (not reduce) his control, and make the platform trusted to one entity (not "for the benefit of others"). Unless you want to defend the notion that the purpose of TCPA is to *remove* user control of his machine, and make it trusted to only *one other entity* (rather than a general capability for remote trust), then I think you should accept that what he said was wrong. And Mike said more than this. He said that if he could install his own key into the TPM that would make it a very useful tool. This is wrong; it would completely undermine the trust guarantees of TCPA, make it impossible for remote observers to draw any useful conclusions about the state of the system, and render the whole thing useless. He also talked about how this could be used to make systems "phone home" at boot time. But TCPA has nothing to do with any such functionality as this. In contrast, Ben Laurie's characterization of TCPA is 100% factual and accurate. Do you at least agree with that much, even if you disagree with my criticism of Mike Rosing's comments? From remailer at aarg.net Mon Aug 12 11:15:17 2002 From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG!Anonymous) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 11:15:17 -0700 Subject: responding to claims about TCPA Message-ID: David Wagner wrote: > To respond to your remark about bias: No, bringing up Document Revocation > Lists has nothing to do with bias. It is only right to seek to understand > the risks in advance. I don't understand why you seem to insinuate > that bringing up the topic of Document Revocation Lists is an indication > of bias. I sincerely hope that I misunderstood you. I believe you did, because if you look at what I actually wrote, I did not say that "bringing up the topic of DRLs is an indication of bias": > The association of TCPA with SNRLs is a perfect example of the bias and > sensationalism which has surrounded the critical appraisals of TCPA. > I fully support John's call for a fair and accurate evaluation of this > technology by security professionals. But IMO people like Ross Anderson > and Lucky Green have disqualified themselves by virtue of their wild and > inaccurate public claims. Anyone who says that TCPA has SNRLs is making > a political statement, not a technical one. My core claim is the last sentence. It's one thing to say, as you are, that TCPA could make applications implement SNRLs more securely. I believe that is true, and if this statement is presented in the context of "dangers of TCPA" or something similar, it would be appropriate. But even then, for a fair analysis, it should make clear that SNRLs can be done without TCPA, and it should go into some detail about just how much more effective a SNRL system would be with TCPA. (I will write more about this in responding to Joseph Ashwood.) And to be truly unbiased, it should also talk about good uses of TCPA. If you look at Ross Anderson's TCPA FAQ at http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/tcpa-faq.html, he writes (question 4): : When you boot up your PC, Fritz takes charge. He checks that the boot : ROM is as expected, executes it, measures the state of the machine; : then checks the first part of the operating system, loads and executes : it, checks the state of the machine; and so on. The trust boundary, of : hardware and software considered to be known and verified, is steadily : expanded. A table is maintained of the hardware (audio card, video card : etc) and the software (O/S, drivers, etc); Fritz checks that the hardware : components are on the TCPA approved list, that the software components : have been signed, and that none of them has a serial number that has : been revoked. He is not saying that TCPA could make SNRLs more effective. He says that "Fritz checks... that none of [the software components] has a serial number that has been revoked." He is flatly stating that the TPM chip checks a serial number revocation list. That is both biased and factually untrue. Ross's whole FAQ is incredibly biased against TCPA. I don't see how anyone can fail to see that. If it were titled "FAQ about Dangers of TCPA" at least people would be warned that they were getting a one-sided presentation. But it is positively shameful for a respected security researcher like Ross Anderson to pretend that this document is giving an unbiased and fair description. I would be grateful if someone who disagrees with me, who thinks that Ross's FAQ is fair and even-handed, would speak up. It amazes me that people can see things so differently. And Lucky's slide presentation, http://www.cypherpunks.to, is if anything even worse. I already wrote about this in detail so I won't belabor the point. Again, I would be very curious to hear from someone who thinks that his presentation was unbiased. --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From miser at yahoo.com Mon Aug 12 04:36:20 2002 From: miser at yahoo.com (Dawnetta Aceuedo) Date: 12 Aug 02 11:36:20 -0000 Subject: Life Insurance Price Wars 840 Message-ID: <200208121036.g7CAZgsZ030300@sgk.sgk.pl> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1708 bytes Desc: not available URL: From aleph1 at securityfocus.com Mon Aug 12 10:45:26 2002 From: aleph1 at securityfocus.com (aleph1 at securityfocus.com) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 11:45:26 -0600 Subject: Implementation of Chosen-Ciphertext Attacks against PGP and GnuPG Message-ID: Implementation of Chosen-Ciphertext Attacks against PGP and GnuPG K. Jallad, J. Katz, and B. Schneier We recently noted that PGP and other e-mail encryption protocols are, in theory, highly vulnerable to chosen-ciphertext attacks in which the recipient of the e-mail acts as an unwitting "decryption oracle." We argued further that such attacks are quite feasible and therefore represent a serious concern. Here, we investigate these claims in more detail by attempting to implement the suggested attacks. On one hand, we are able to successfully implement the described attacks against PGP and GnuPG (two widely-used software packages) in a number of different settings. On the other hand, we show that the attacks largely fail when data is compressed before encryption. Interestingly,the attacks are unsuccessful for largely fortuitous reasons; resistance to these attacks does not seem due to any conscious effort made to prevent them. Based on our work, we discuss those instances in which chosen-ciphertext attacks do indeed represent an important threat and hence must be taken into account in order to maintain confidentiality. We also recommend changes in the OpenPGP standard to reduce the effectiveness of our attacks in these settings. http://www.counterpane.com/pgp-attack.pdf http://www.counterpane.com/pgp-attack.ps.zip -- Elias Levy Symantec Alea jacta est ----- End forwarded message ----- From bill.stewart at POBOX.COM Mon Aug 12 12:06:20 2002 From: bill.stewart at POBOX.COM (Bill Stewart) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:06:20 -0700 Subject: FAQ: How will Microsoft respond to Lucky's patent application? In-Reply-To: <012001c240bb$36f28280$6801a8c0@xpserver> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20020812120531.04566950@idiom.com> At 03:13 PM 08/10/2002 -0700, Lucky Green wrote: >Lastly, I feel obliged to mention that it is quite irrelevant what I, >Microsoft, or the subscribers to this list believe to be the case with >respect to my patent application. >All that matters is what the patent examiner at the USPTO believes. Those guys'll believe anything :-) From rah at shipwright.com Mon Aug 12 09:17:29 2002 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:17:29 -0400 Subject: On the outright laughability of internet "democracy" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 4:20 PM +0200 on 8/12/02, Nomen Nescio wrote, in excruciating, hilarious and even elegant detail: <...all about how I was trolled. :-).> > Good fish. Thank you for playing. LOL... You're welcome. Guilty as charged. I admit to being absolutely trollable about some things. It's even fun on occasion. As always, you know where the 'd' key is. Or, apparently, I can also tell you where to find it in several languages. I love the net... Meaning that, as it always has been, since people began repeating themselves about six months out from its founding, this list is just a watering hole, and not a salon. That, and you never really know how exactly you're going to get your kicks next. :-). However, if I may be permitted to flop back into the bilge a little while to add *some* content to the discussion again, my point -- well, two, actually -- still holds. 1.) You cannot have truly anonymous voting on the net without also being perfectly free to sell your vote. In short, the only voting that matters on the net is *financial* voting -- voting your control, total or fractional, of an asset of some kind. Don't take my word for it. Look it up. Read the protocols. Figure it out for yourself. It's impossible. And, in so doing you will discover something that I've also said said too much before, also to the consternation of folks like you: 2.) Financial cryptography is the *only* cryptography that matters. [If you respond to a patently content-free fulmination by an obviously trollee with another troll of your own, what, exactly, does that make you, troller -- or trollee? :-)] Cheers, RAH -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 7.5 iQA/AwUBPVffd8PxH8jf3ohaEQId/gCg8bSQsIpLv67eVoLDwO8YSTL1S7UAnRA3 rpyy0mOPtS0ydZLaPz7DCyT3 =g1DF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From eresrch at eskimo.com Mon Aug 12 12:41:44 2002 From: eresrch at eskimo.com (Mike Rosing) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:41:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: dangers of TCPA/palladium In-Reply-To: <93b2dd7731fbd09e50dd760ee716afb9@aarg.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Aug 2002, AARG! Anonymous wrote: > I don't believe that is an accurate paraphrase of what Mike Rosing said. > He said the purpose (not effect) was to remove (not reduce) his control, > and make the platform trusted to one entity (not "for the benefit of > others"). Unless you want to defend the notion that the purpose of TCPA > is to *remove* user control of his machine, and make it trusted to only > *one other entity* (rather than a general capability for remote trust), > then I think you should accept that what he said was wrong. That does seem to be the purpose - but may not be what was planned - it could simply be a "fortuitous accident". There are way too many unknowns really, so conjecture is all we've got to go on. So far we know that the guys writing Palldium are not happy with TCPA - it doesn't solve their problems the way they like. We know less about the TPM. What's "right" or "wrong" about vaporware is kind of hard to pin down. There are some basic conceptual things we do know, and we know there are already commercial solutions to problems that TCPA claims to attempt to solve. I'm working from what I know about those existing devices and project that onto TCPA. I may well be wrong, and hopefully somebody who's actually building TCPA and TPM can give us concrete answers. > And Mike said more than this. He said that if he could install his own > key into the TPM that would make it a very useful tool. This is wrong; > it would completely undermine the trust guarantees of TCPA, make it > impossible for remote observers to draw any useful conclusions about the > state of the system, and render the whole thing useless. He also talked > about how this could be used to make systems "phone home" at boot time. > But TCPA has nothing to do with any such functionality as this. I have to disagree. If I control the content of the TPM, *I* can trust it, and anybody who trusts *me* can trust it too. What other remote observers of my system are there than the ones *I* trust? Or to put in another way - I only want remote observers that I trust to have the ability to check my TPM. This is what it all boils down to - "who is in charge of what?" If I create a fixed key, I can authenticate myself via multiple channels and build trust to multiple and independent parties. That is how TPM becomes useful. If somebody else controls the TPM, they may well *not* trust me, and they may put my computer to work doing something I don't like. In that case, I can not trust my computer, because my computer does not trust me. (I said may, just because it's possible doesn't mean it will happen.) What started this very long and interesting discussion was the fear that TCPA is going to be mandated by law. That is a very bad idea, and as long as the fear is real, we need some very good arguments to prevent it from happening. The main one is economic, the secondary one is that we don't need it - you can buy hardware that does the same thing off the shelf and plug it in to any generic PC. If the authors of Palladium want their software to work, they should look at the commercial hardware security computing platforms already available and get their stuff to work with it. Ditch TCPA and get your stuff on the market now, and see how people really deal with it. It will be an interesting experiment. Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike From sunder at sunder.net Mon Aug 12 10:46:04 2002 From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 13:46:04 -0400 (edt) Subject: Thanks, Lucky, for helping to kill gnutella In-Reply-To: <8c25bf764b14de9e2d3d9cd24a6d49fb@aarg.net> Message-ID: Ok Mr. Smarty Pants Aarg! Anonymous remailer user, you come up with such a method. Cypherpunsk write code, yes? So write some code. Meanwhile, this is why it can't be done: If you have a client that sends a signature of it's binary back to it's mommy, you can also have a rogue client that sends the same signature back to it's mommy, but is a different binary. So how does mommy know which is the real client, and which is the rogue client? After all, the rogue could simply keep a copy of the real client's binary, and send the checksum/hash for the real copy, but not run it. If you embedd one half of a public key in the real client, what's to stop the attacker from reverse engineering the real client and extracting the key, then sign/encrypt things with that half of the key? Or to patch the client using a debugger so it does other things also? Or runs inside an emulator where every operation it does is logged - so that a new rogue can be built that does the same? Or runs under an OS whose kernel is patched to allow another process to access your client's memory and routines? Or has modded dynamic libraries which your client depends on to do the same, etc. Show us the code instead of asking us to write it for you. I say, you can't do it. Prove me wrong. As long as you do not have full exclusive control of the client hardware, you can't do what you ask with any degree of confidence beyond what security through obscurity buys you. In the end, if someone cares enough, they will break it. All this pointless bickering has already been discussed: A long while ago, Dennis Ritchie of K&R discussed how he introduced a backdoor into login.c, then modified the C compiler to recognize when login.c was compiled, and had it inject the back door, then removed the changes to login.c. How do you propose to have a client run in a hostile environment and securely authenticate itself without allowing rogues to take over it's function or mimic it? Either propose a way to do what you're asking us to do - which IMHO is impossible without also having some sort of cop out such as having trusted hardware, or go away and shut the fuck up. ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :NSA got $20Bill/year|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :and didn't stop 9-11|share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:Instead of rewarding|monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :their failures, we |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :should get refunds! |site, and you must change them very often. --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ On Fri, 9 Aug 2002, AARG! Anonymous wrote: > If only there were a technology in which clients could verify and yes, > even trust, each other remotely. Some way in which a digital certificate > on a program could actually be verified, perhaps by some kind of remote, > trusted hardware device. This way you could know that a remote system was > actually running a well-behaved client before admitting it to the net. > This would protect Gnutella from not only the kind of opportunistic > misbehavior seen today, but the future floods, attacks and DOSing which > will be launched in earnest once the content companies get serious about > taking this network down. From ben at algroup.co.uk Mon Aug 12 05:52:39 2002 From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 13:52:39 +0100 Subject: Palladium: technical limits and implications References: <51678c581368e18c35beca5d8665c528@aarg.net> Message-ID: <3D57AF97.2090501@algroup.co.uk> AARG!Anonymous wrote: > Adam Back writes: > >>I have one gap in the picture: >> >>In a previous message in this Peter Biddle said: >> >> >>>In Palladium, SW can actually know that it is running on a given >>>platform and not being lied to by software. [...] (Pd can always be >>>lied to by HW - we move the problem to HW, but we can't make it go >>>away completely). >> > > Obviously no application can reliably know anything if the OS is hostile. > Any application can be meddled with arbitrarily by the OS. In fact > every bit of the app can be changed so that it does something entirely > different. So in this sense it is meaningless to speak of an app that > can't be lied to by the OS. > > What Palladium can do, though, is arrange that the app can't get at > previously sealed data if the OS has meddled with it. The sealing > is done by hardware based on the app's hash. So if the OS has changed > the app per the above, it won't be able to get at old sealed data. I don't buy this: how does Palladium know what an app is without the OS' help? Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ Available for contract work. "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From morlockelloi at yahoo.com Mon Aug 12 15:03:17 2002 From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 15:03:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BIND-PE In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020812101523.04526050@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <20020812220317.96897.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com> > All standard as well as new TLD's (.aero etc.) are included and accessible > for DNS name resolutions and browsing. Alternate TLD's like http://BBC.news > and http://Atlantic.Ocean (almost 200 additional TLD's) websites which were > not normally available in Legacy setups will now be viewable in browsers. May I guess ... it's also easy to switch to alternate root servers ... I always wanted icann.org ===== end (of original message) Y-a*h*o-o (yes, they scan for this) spam follows: HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com From tim at dierks.org Mon Aug 12 12:28:15 2002 From: tim at dierks.org (Tim Dierks) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 15:28:15 -0400 Subject: Palladium: technical limits and implications In-Reply-To: <20020812193000.A844266@exeter.ac.uk> References: <699bcf9a15f57cec8e85fb08c0c02652@aarg.net> <699bcf9a15f57cec8e85fb08c0c02652@aarg.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020812150745.03d70748@dierks.org> At 07:30 PM 8/12/2002 +0100, Adam Back wrote: >(Tim Dierks: read the earlier posts about ring -1 to find the answer >to your question about feasibility in the case of Palladium; in the >case of TCPA your conclusions are right I think). The addition of an additional security ring with a secured, protected memory space does not, in my opinion, change the fact that such a ring cannot accurately determine that a particular request is consistant with any definable security policy. I do not think it is technologically feasible for ring -1 to determine, upon receiving a request, that the request was generated by trusted software operating in accordance with the intent of whomever signed it. Specifically, let's presume that a Palladium-enabled application is being used for DRM; a secure & trusted application is asking its secure key manager to decrypt a content encryption key so it can access properly licensed code. The OS is valid & signed and the application is valid & signed. How can ring -1 distinguish a valid request from one which has been forged by rogue code which used a bug in the OS or any other trusted entity (the application, drivers, etc.)? I think it's reasonable to presume that desktop operating systems which are under the control of end-users cannot be protected against privilege escalation attacks. All it takes is one sound card with a bug in a particular version of the driver to allow any attacker to go out and buy that card & install that driver and use the combination to execute code or access data beyond his privileges. In the presence of successful privilege escalation attacks, an attacker can get access to any information which can be exposed to any privilige level he can escalate to. The attacker may not be able to access raw keys & other information directly managed by the TOR or the key manager, but those keys aren't really interesting anyway: all the interesting content & transactions will live in regular applications at lower security levels. The only way I can see to prevent this is for the OS to never transfer control to any software which isn't signed, trusted and intact. The problem with this is that it's economically infeasible: it implies the death of small developers and open source, and that's a higher price than the market is willing to bear. - Tim PS - I'm looking for a job in or near New York City. See my resume at --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From remailer at aarg.net Mon Aug 12 15:50:48 2002 From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 15:50:48 -0700 Subject: Seth on TCPA at Defcon/Usenix Message-ID: <5d30bc880936d7ce49185c1d9d42cceb@aarg.net> In discussing how TCPA would help enforce a document revocation list (DRL) Joseph Ashwood contrasted the situation with and without TCPA style hardware, below. I just want to point out that his analysis of the hardware vs software situation says nothing about DRL's specifically; in fact it doesn't even mention them. His analysis actually applies to a wide range of security features, such as the examples given earlier: secure games, improved P2P, distributed computing as Adam Back suggested, DRM of course, etc.. TCPA is a potentially very powerful security enhancement, so it does make sense that it can strengthen all of these things, and DRLs as well. But I don't see that it is fair to therefore link TCPA specifically with DRLs, when there are any number of other security capabilities that are also strengthened by TCPA. Joseph Ashwood wrote: > Actually it does, in order to make it valuable. Without a hardware assist, > the attack works like this: > Hack your software (which is in many ways almost trivial) to reveal it's > private key. > Watch the protocol. > Decrypt protocol > Grab decryption key > use decryption key > problem solved It's not always as easy as you make it sound here. Adam Back wrote Saturday about the interesting history of the giFT project, which reverse-engineered the Kazaa file-sharing protocol. That was a terrific effort that required considerable cryptographic know-how as well as supreme software reverse engineering skills. But then Kazaa changed the protocol, and giFT never managed to become compatible with the new one. I'm not sure whether it was lack of interest or just too difficult, but in any case the project failed (as far as creating an open Kazaa compatible client). It is clear that software hacking is far from "almost trivial" and you can't assume that every software-security feature can and will be broken. Furthermore, even when there is a break, it won't be available to everyone. Ordinary people aren't clued in to the hacker community and don't download all the latest patches and hacks to disable security features in their software. Likewise for business customers. In practice, if Microsoft wanted to implement a global, facist DRL, while some people might be able to patch around it, probably 95%+ of ordinary users would be stuck with it. Therefore a DRL in software would be far from useless, and if there truly was a strong commercial need for such a solution then chances are it would be there today. I might mention BTW that for email there is such a product, disappearingink.com, which works along the lines Seth suggested, I believe. It encrypts email with a centralized key, and when that email needs to be deleted, the key is destroyed. This allows corporations to implement a "document retention policy" (which is of course a euphemism for a document destruction policy) to help reduce their vulnerability to lawsuits and fishing expeditions. I don't recall anyone getting up in arms over the disappearingink.com technology or claiming that it was a threat, in the same way that DRLs and SNRLs are being presented in the context of Palladium. > With hardware assist, trusted software, and a trusted execution environment > it (doesn't) work like this: > Hack you software. > DOH!!!!! the software won't run > revert back to the stored software. > Hack the hardware (extremely difficult). > Virtualize the hardware at a second layer, using the grabbed private key > Hack the software > Watch the protocol. > Decrypt protocol > Grab decryption key > use decryption key > Once the file is released the server revokes all trust in your client, > effectively removing all files from your computer that you have not > decrypted yet > problem solved? only for valuable files First, as far as this last point, you acknowledge that if they can't tell where it came from, your hacked hardware can be an ongoing source of un-DRL'd documents. But watermarking technology so far has been largely a huge failure, so it is likely that someone clueful enough to hack his TPM could also strip away any identifying markings. Second, given that you do hack the hardware, you may not actually need to do that much in terms of protocol hacking. If you can watch the data going to and from the TPM you can extract keys directly, and that may be enough to let you decrypt the "sealed" data. (The TPM does only public key operations; the symmetric crypto is all done by the app. I don't know if Palladium will work that way or not.) Third, if a document is "liberated" via this kind of hack, it can then be distributed everywhere, outside the "secure trust perimeter" enforced by TCPA/Palladium. We are still in a "break once read anywhere" situation with documents, and any attempt to make one disappear is not going to be very successful, even with TCPA in existence. In short, while TCPA could increase the effectiveness of global DRLs, they wouldn't be *that* much more effective. Most users will neither hack their software nor their hardware, so the hardware doesn't make any difference for them. Hackers will be able to liberate documents completely from DRL controls, whether they use hardware or software to do it. The only difference is that there will be fewer hackers, if hardware is used, because it is more difficult. Depending on the rate at which important documents go on DRLs, that may not make any difference at all. > Now about the claim that MS Word would not have this "feature." It almost > certainly would. The reason being that business customers are of particular > interest to MS, since they supply a large portion of the money for Word (and > everything else). Businesses would want to be able to configure their > network in such a way that critical business information couldn't be leaked > to the outside world. Of course this removes the advertising path of > conveniently leaking carefully constructed documents to the world, but for > many companies that is a trivial loss. I agree that providing an option to store documents in restricted form could be a desirable feature for businesses. And having the ability to delete documents on a company-wide basis, a la disappearingink.com, could make sense as well. I don't know that there is a huge market for this capability, or I suspect we'd see it already. But it does make sense as an auxiliary part of a business document product. But to me this points to a localized DRL, part of a document-management library that is used solely for documents within the company. The company would want to control the administration of its documents. I don't see this leading to the kind of centralized, global system which I think opponents of TCPA are attempting to invoke when they talk about it allowing DRLs, and which is the kind of thing I was talking about above. From nobody at dizum.com Mon Aug 12 07:20:10 2002 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 16:20:10 +0200 (CEST) Subject: On the outright laughability of internet "democracy" Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Aug 2002 22:07:11 -0400, R. A. Hettinga wrote: 160 lines, 1,150 words, 6,393 characters, all insisting on describing his being guthooked, sinker eating, line chewing and flopping up into the greasy bilge, furiously spewing offense and defense, in serious, righteous and angry pursuit of the diaphanous illusion of anoned bait-spilth, becoming clearly the easiest, but also the lowest calorie catch o' the day. Back over the side with you, little fellow. Good fish. Thank you for playing. From tim at dierks.org Mon Aug 12 13:32:05 2002 From: tim at dierks.org (Tim Dierks) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 16:32:05 -0400 Subject: trade-offs of secure programming with Palladium (Re: Palladium: technical limits and implications) In-Reply-To: <20020812210759.A846822@exeter.ac.uk> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020812150745.03d70748@dierks.org> <699bcf9a15f57cec8e85fb08c0c02652@aarg.net> <699bcf9a15f57cec8e85fb08c0c02652@aarg.net> <20020812193000.A844266@exeter.ac.uk> <5.1.0.14.2.20020812150745.03d70748@dierks.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020812161317.03e05818@dierks.org> At 09:07 PM 8/12/2002 +0100, Adam Back wrote: >At some level there has to be a trade-off between what you put in >trusted agent space and what becomes application code. If you put the >whole application in trusted agent space, while then all it's >application logic is fully protected, the danger will be that you have >added too much code to reasonably audit, so people will be able to >gain access to that trusted agent via buffer overflow. I agree; I think the system as you describe it could work and would be secure, if correctly executed. However, I think it is infeasible to generally implement commercially viable software, especially in the consumer market, that will be secure under this model. Either the functionality will be too restricted to be accepted by the market, or there will be a set of software flaws that allow the system to be penetrated. The challenge is to put all of the functionality which has access to content inside of a secure perimeter, while keeping the perimeter secure from any data leakage or privilege escalation. The perimeter must be very secure and well-understood from a security standpoint; for example, it seems implausible to me that any substantial portion of the Win32 API could be used from within the perimeter; thus, all user interface aspects of the application must be run through a complete security analysis with the presumption that everything outside of the perimeter is compromised and cannot be trusted. This includes all APIs & data. I think we all know how difficult it is, even for security professionals, to produce correct systems that enforce any non-trivial set of security permissions. This is true even when the items to be protected and the software functionality are very simple and straightforward (such as key management systems). I think it entirely implausible that software developed by multimedia software engineers, managing large quantities of data in a multi-operation, multi-vendor environment, will be able to deliver a secure environment. This is even more true when the attacker (the consumer) has control over the hardware & software environment. If a security bug is found & patched, the end user has no direct incentive to upgrade their installation; in fact, the most concerning end users (e.g., pirates) have every incentive to seek out and maintain installations with security faults. While a content or transaction server could refuse to conduct transactions with a user who has not upgraded their software, such a requirement can only increase the friction of commerce, a price that vendors & consumers might be quite unwilling to pay. I'm sure that the whole system is secure in theory, but I believe that it cannot be securely implemented in practice and that the implied constraints on use & usability will be unpalatable to consumers and vendors. - Tim PS - I'm looking for a job in or near New York City. See my resume at --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From adam at cypherspace.org Mon Aug 12 09:14:42 2002 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 17:14:42 +0100 Subject: Palladium: technical limits and implications In-Reply-To: <3D57AF97.2090501@algroup.co.uk>; from ben@algroup.co.uk on Mon, Aug 12, 2002 at 01:52:39PM +0100 References: <51678c581368e18c35beca5d8665c528@aarg.net> <3D57AF97.2090501@algroup.co.uk> Message-ID: <20020812171442.A829213@exeter.ac.uk> On Mon, Aug 12, 2002 at 01:52:39PM +0100, Ben Laurie wrote: > AARG!Anonymous wrote: > > [...] > > What Palladium can do, though, is arrange that the app can't get at > > previously sealed data if the OS has meddled with it. The sealing > > is done by hardware based on the app's hash. So if the OS has changed > > the app per the above, it won't be able to get at old sealed data. > > I don't buy this: how does Palladium know what an app is without the OS' > help? Here's a slightly updated version of the diagram I posted earlier: +---------------+------------+ | trusted-agent | user mode | | space | app space | | (code +------------+ | compartment) | supervisor | | | mode / OS | +---------------+------------+ | ring -1 / TOR | +----------------------------+ | hardware / SCP key manager | +----------------------------+ Integrity Metrics in a given level are computed by the level below. The TOR starts Trusted Agents, the Trusted Agents are outside the OS control. Therefore a remote application based on remote attestation can know about the integrity of the trusted-agent, and TOR. ring -1/TOR is computed by SCP/hardware; Trusted Agent is computed by TOR; The parallel stack to the right: OS is computed by TOR; Application is computed OS. So for general applications you still have to trust the OS, but the OS could itself have it's integrity measured by the TOR. Of course given the rate of OS exploits especially in Microsoft products, it seems likley that the aspect of the OS that checks integrity of loaded applications could itself be tampered with using a remote exploit. Probably the latter problem is the reason Microsoft introduced ring -1 in palladium (it seems to be missing in TCPA). Adam -- http://www.cypherspace.org/adam/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From adam at cypherspace.org Mon Aug 12 11:30:00 2002 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 19:30:00 +0100 Subject: Palladium: technical limits and implications In-Reply-To: <699bcf9a15f57cec8e85fb08c0c02652@aarg.net>; from remailer@aarg.net on Mon, Aug 12, 2002 at 10:55:19AM -0700 References: <699bcf9a15f57cec8e85fb08c0c02652@aarg.net> Message-ID: <20020812193000.A844266@exeter.ac.uk> Peter Biddle, Brian LaMacchia or other Microsoft employees could short-cut this guessing game at any point by coughing up some details. Feel free guys... enciphering minds want to know how it works. (Tim Dierks: read the earlier posts about ring -1 to find the answer to your question about feasibility in the case of Palladium; in the case of TCPA your conclusions are right I think). On Mon, Aug 12, 2002 at 10:55:19AM -0700, AARG!Anonymous wrote: > Adam Back writes: > > +---------------+------------+ > > | trusted-agent | user mode | > > | space | app space | > > | (code +------------+ > > | compartment) | supervisor | > > | | mode / OS | > > +---------------+------------+ > > | ring -1 / TOR | > > +----------------------------+ > > | hardware / SCP key manager | > > +----------------------------+ > > I don't think this works. According to Peter Biddle, the TOR can be > launched even days after the OS boots. I thought we went over this before? My hypothesis is: I presumed there would be a stub TOR loaded bvy the hardware. The hardware would allow you to load a new TOR (presumably somewhat like loading a new BIOS -- the TOR and hardware has local trusted path to some IO devices). > It does not underly the ordinary user mode apps and the supervisor > mode system call handlers and device drivers. I don't know what leads you to this conclusion. > +---------------+------------+ > | trusted-agent | user mode | > | space | app space | > | (code +------------+ > | compartment) | supervisor | > | | mode / OS | > +---+ +---------------+------------+ > |SCP|---| ring -1 / TOR | > +---+ +---------------+ How would the OS or user mode apps communicate with trusted agents with this model? The TOR I think would be the mediator of these communications (and of potential communications between trusted agents). Before loading a real TOR, the stub TOR would not implement talking to trusted agents. I think this is also more symmstric and therefore more likely. The trusted agent space is the same as supervisor mode that the OS runs in. It's like virtualization in OS360: there are now multiple "OSes" operating under a micro-kernel (the TOR in ring -1): the real OS and the multiple trusted agents. The TOR is supposed to be special purpose, simple and small enough to be audited as secure and stand a chance of being so. The trusted agents are the secure parts of applications (dealing with sealing, remote attestation, DRM, authenticated path to DRM implementing graphics cards, monitors, sound cards etc; that kind of thing). Trusted agents should also be small, simple special purpose to avoid them also suffering from remote compromise. There's limited point putting a trusted agent in a code compartment if it becomes a full blown complex application like MS word, because then the trusted agent would be nearly as likely to be remotely exploited as normal OSes. > [...] It doesn't follow that the nub has anything to do with the OS > proper. If the OS can run fine without it, as I think you agreed, > then why would the entire architecture have to reorient itself once > the TOR is launched? trusted-agents will also need to use OS services, the way you have it they can't. > In other words, isn't my version simpler, as it adjoins the column at > the left to the pre-existing column at the right, when the TOR launches, > days after boot? Doesn't it require less instantaneous, on-the-fly, > reconfiguration of the entire structure of the Windows OS at the moment > of TOR launch? I don't think it's a big problem to replace a stub TOR with a given TOR sometime after OS boot. It's analogous to modifying kernel code with a kernel module, only a special purpose micro-kernel in ring -1 instead of ring 0. No big deal. > > The parallel stack to the right: OS is computed by TOR; Application is > > computed OS. > > No, that doesn't make sense. Why would the TOR need to compute a metric > of the OS? In TCPA which does not have a ring -1, this is all the TPM does (compute metrics on the OS, and then have the OS compute metrics on applications. While Trusted Agent space is separate and better protected as there are fewer lines of code that a remote exploit has to be found in to compromise one of them, I hardly think Palladium would discard the existing windows driver signing, code signing scheme. It also seems likely therefore that even though it offers lower assurance the code signing would be extended to include metrics and attestation for the OS, drivers and even applications. > Peter has said that Palladium does not give information about other > apps running on your machine: I take this to mean that as stated somewhere in the available docs the OS can not observe or even know how many trusted agents are running. So he's stating that they've made OS design decisions such that the OS could not refuse to run some code on the basis that a given Trusted Agent is running. This functionality however could be implemented if so desired in the TOR. Adam -- http://www.cypherspace.org/adam/ From mattlaclear at core.com Mon Aug 12 17:07:52 2002 From: mattlaclear at core.com (Lead Generation) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 20:07:52 -0400 Subject: Lead Generation Message-ID: <200208130002.g7D02eD6026339@ak47.algebra.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2622 bytes Desc: not available URL: From eresrch at eskimo.com Mon Aug 12 20:38:01 2002 From: eresrch at eskimo.com (Mike Rosing) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 20:38:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Seth on TCPA at Defcon/Usenix In-Reply-To: <5d30bc880936d7ce49185c1d9d42cceb@aarg.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Aug 2002, AARG! Anonymous wrote: > It is clear that software hacking is far from "almost trivial" and you > can't assume that every software-security feature can and will be broken. Anyone doing "security" had better assume software can and will be broken. That's where you *start*. > Furthermore, even when there is a break, it won't be available to > everyone. Ordinary people aren't clued in to the hacker community > and don't download all the latest patches and hacks to disable > security features in their software. Likewise for business customers. > In practice, if Microsoft wanted to implement a global, facist DRL, > while some people might be able to patch around it, probably 95%+ of > ordinary users would be stuck with it. Yes, this the problem with security today. That's why lots of people are advocating that the OS should be built from the ground up with security as the prime goal rather than ad hoc addons as it is now. Nobody wants to pay for it tho :-) > In short, while TCPA could increase the effectiveness of global DRLs, > they wouldn't be *that* much more effective. Most users will neither > hack their software nor their hardware, so the hardware doesn't make > any difference for them. Hackers will be able to liberate documents > completely from DRL controls, whether they use hardware or software > to do it. The only difference is that there will be fewer hackers, > if hardware is used, because it is more difficult. Depending on the > rate at which important documents go on DRLs, that may not make any > difference at all. So what's the point of TCPA if a few hackers can steal the most expensive data? Are you now admitting TCPA is broken? You've got me very confused now! I'm actually really confused about the whole DRM business anyway. It seems to me that any data available to human perceptions can be duplicated. Period. The idea of DRM (as I understand it) is that you can hand out data to people you don't trust, and they can't copy it. To me, DRM seems fundamentally impossible. Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike From adam at cypherspace.org Mon Aug 12 13:07:59 2002 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 21:07:59 +0100 Subject: trade-offs of secure programming with Palladium (Re: Palladium: technical limits and implications) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020812150745.03d70748@dierks.org>; from tim@dierks.org on Mon, Aug 12, 2002 at 03:28:15PM -0400 References: <699bcf9a15f57cec8e85fb08c0c02652@aarg.net> <699bcf9a15f57cec8e85fb08c0c02652@aarg.net> <20020812193000.A844266@exeter.ac.uk> <5.1.0.14.2.20020812150745.03d70748@dierks.org> Message-ID: <20020812210759.A846822@exeter.ac.uk> I think you are making incorrect presumptions about how you would use Palladium hardware to implement a secure DRM system. If used as you suggest it would indeed suffer the vulnerabilities you describe. The difference between an insecure DRM application such as you describe and a secure DRM application correctly using the hardware security features is somewhat analogous to the current difference between an application that relies on not being reverse engineered for it's security vs one that encrypts data with a key derived from a user password. In a Palladium DRM application done right everything which sees keys and plaintext content would reside inside Trusted Agent space, inside DRM enabled graphics cards which retrict access to video RAM, and later DRM enabled monitors with encrypted digital signal to the monitor, and DRM enabled soundcards, encrypted content to speakers. (The encrypted contentt to media related output peripherals is like HDCP, only done right with non-broken crypto). Now all that will be in application space that you can reverse engineer and hack on will be UI elements and application logic that drives the trusted agent, remote attesation, content delivery and hardware. At no time will keys or content reside in space that you can virtualize or debug. In the short term it may be that some of these will be not fully implemented so that content does pass through OS or application space, or into non DRM video cards and non DRM monitors, but the above is the end-goal as I understand it. As you can see there is still the limit of the non-remote exploitability of the trusted agent code, but this is within the control of the DRM vendor. If he does a good job of making a simple software architecture and avoiding potential for buffer overflows he stands a much better chance of having a secure DRM platofrm than if as you describe exploited OS code or rogue driver code can subvert his application. There is also I suppose possibility to push content decryption on to the DRM video card so the TOR does little apart from channel key exchange messages from the SCP to the video card, and channel remote attestation and key exchanges between the DRM license server and the SCP. The rest would be streaming encrypted video formats such as CSS VOB blocks (only with good crypto) from the network or disk to the video card. Similar kinds of arguments about the correct break down between application logic and placement of security policy enforcing code in Trusted Agent space apply to general applications. For example you could imagine a file sharing application which hid the data the users machine was serving from the user. If you did it correctly, this would be secure to the extent of the hardware tamper resistance (and the implementers ability to keep the security policy enforcing code line-count down and audit it well). At some level there has to be a trade-off between what you put in trusted agent space and what becomes application code. If you put the whole application in trusted agent space, while then all it's application logic is fully protected, the danger will be that you have added too much code to reasonably audit, so people will be able to gain access to that trusted agent via buffer overflow. So therein lies the crux of secure software design in the Palladium style secure application space: choosing a good break-down between security policy enforcement, and application code. There must be a balance, and what makes sense and is appropriate depends on the application and the limits of the ingenuity of the protocol designer in coming up with clever designs that cover to hardware tamper resistant levels the the applications desired policy enforcement while providing a workably small and pracitcally auditable associated trusted agent module. So there are practical limits stemming from realities to do with code complexity being inversely proportional to auditability and security, but the extra ring -1, remote attestation, sealing and integrity metrics really do offer some security advantages over the current situation. Adam On Mon, Aug 12, 2002 at 03:28:15PM -0400, Tim Dierks wrote: > At 07:30 PM 8/12/2002 +0100, Adam Back wrote: > >(Tim Dierks: read the earlier posts about ring -1 to find the answer > >to your question about feasibility in the case of Palladium; in the > >case of TCPA your conclusions are right I think). > > The addition of an additional security ring with a secured, protected > memory space does not, in my opinion, change the fact that such a ring > cannot accurately determine that a particular request is consistant with > any definable security policy. I do not think it is technologically > feasible for ring -1 to determine, upon receiving a request, that the > request was generated by trusted software operating in accordance with the > intent of whomever signed it. > > Specifically, let's presume that a Palladium-enabled application is being > used for DRM; a secure & trusted application is asking its secure key > manager to decrypt a content encryption key so it can access properly > licensed code. The OS is valid & signed and the application is valid & > signed. How can ring -1 distinguish a valid request from one which has been > forged by rogue code which used a bug in the OS or any other trusted entity > (the application, drivers, etc.)? > > I think it's reasonable to presume that desktop operating systems which are > under the control of end-users cannot be protected against privilege > escalation attacks. All it takes is one sound card with a bug in a > particular version of the driver to allow any attacker to go out and buy > that card & install that driver and use the combination to execute code or > access data beyond his privileges. > > In the presence of successful privilege escalation attacks, an attacker can > get access to any information which can be exposed to any privilige level > he can escalate to. The attacker may not be able to access raw keys & other > information directly managed by the TOR or the key manager, but those keys > aren't really interesting anyway: all the interesting content & > transactions will live in regular applications at lower security levels. > > The only way I can see to prevent this is for the OS to never transfer > control to any software which isn't signed, trusted and intact. The problem > with this is that it's economically infeasible: it implies the death of > small developers and open source, and that's a higher price than the market > is willing to bear. > > - Tim --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From adam at cypherspace.org Mon Aug 12 14:13:58 2002 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 22:13:58 +0100 Subject: trade-offs of secure programming with Palladium (Re: Palladium: technical limits and implications) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020812161317.03e05818@dierks.org>; from tim@dierks.org on Mon, Aug 12, 2002 at 04:32:05PM -0400 References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020812150745.03d70748@dierks.org> <699bcf9a15f57cec8e85fb08c0c02652@aarg.net> <699bcf9a15f57cec8e85fb08c0c02652@aarg.net> <20020812193000.A844266@exeter.ac.uk> <5.1.0.14.2.20020812150745.03d70748@dierks.org> <20020812210759.A846822@exeter.ac.uk> <5.1.0.14.2.20020812161317.03e05818@dierks.org> Message-ID: <20020812221358.A832443@exeter.ac.uk> At this point we largely agree, security is improved, but the limit remains assuring security of over-complex software. To sum up: The limit of what is securely buildable now becomes what is securely auditable. Before, without the Palladium the limit was the security of the OS, so this makes a big difference. Yes some people may design over complex trusted agents, with sloppy APIs and so forth, but the nice thing about trusted agents are they are compartmentalized: If the MPAA and Microsoft shoot themselves in the foot with a badly designed over complex DRM trusted agent component for MS Media Player, it has no bearing on my ability to implement a secure file-sharing or secure e-cash system in a compartment with rigorously analysed APIs, and well audited code. The leaky compromised DRM app can't compromise the security policies of my app. Also it's unclear from the limited information available but it may be that trusted agents, like other ring-0 code (eg like the OS itself) can delegate tasks to user mode code running in trusted agent space, which can't examine other user level space, nor the space of the trusted agent which stated them, and also can't be examined by the OS. In this way for example remote exploits could be better contained in the sub-division of trusted agent code. eg. The crypto could be done by the trusted-agent proper, the mpeg decoding by a user-mode component; compromise the mpeg-decoder, and you just get plaintext not keys. Various divisions could be envisaged. Given that most current applications don't even get the simplest of applications of encryption right (store key and password in the encrypted file, check if the password is right by string comparison is suprisingly common), the prospects are not good for general applications. However it becomes more feasible to build secure applications in the environment where it matters, or the consumer cares sufficiently to pay for the difference in development cost. Of course all this assumes microsoft manages to securely implement a TOR and SCP interface. And whether they manage to succesfully use trusted IO paths to prevent the OS and applications from tricking the user into bypassing intended trusted agent functionality (another interesting sub-problem). CC EAL3 on the SCP is a good start, but they have pressures to make the TOR and Trusted Agent APIs flexible, so we'll see how that works out. Adam -- http://www.cypherspace.org/adam/ On Mon, Aug 12, 2002 at 04:32:05PM -0400, Tim Dierks wrote: > At 09:07 PM 8/12/2002 +0100, Adam Back wrote: > >At some level there has to be a trade-off between what you put in > >trusted agent space and what becomes application code. If you put the > >whole application in trusted agent space, while then all it's > >application logic is fully protected, the danger will be that you have > >added too much code to reasonably audit, so people will be able to > >gain access to that trusted agent via buffer overflow. > > I agree; I think the system as you describe it could work and would be > secure, if correctly executed. However, I think it is infeasible to > generally implement commercially viable software, especially in the > consumer market, that will be secure under this model. Either the > functionality will be too restricted to be accepted by the market, or there > will be a set of software flaws that allow the system to be penetrated. > > The challenge is to put all of the functionality which has access to > content inside of a secure perimeter, while keeping the perimeter secure > from any data leakage or privilege escalation. [...] --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From remailer at aarg.net Mon Aug 12 23:55:14 2002 From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 23:55:14 -0700 Subject: Another application for trusted computing Message-ID: <4ef29e56fbb8a06e34fb5369fecbf741@aarg.net> I thought of another interesting application for trusted computing systems: mobile agents. These are pieces of software which get transferred from computer to computer, running on each system, communicating with the local system and other visiting agents, before migrating elsewhere. This was a hot technology from a couple of years ago, but it never really went anywhere (so to speak). Part of the reason was that there wasn't that much functionality for agents which couldn't be done better in other ways. But a big part of it was problems with security. One issue was protecting the host from malicious agents, and much work was done in that direction. This was one of the early selling points of Java, and other sandbox systems were developed as well. Likewise the E language is designed to solve this problem. But the much harder problem was protecting the agent from malicious hosts. Once an agent transferred into a host machine, it was essentially at the mercy of that system. The host could lie to the agent, and even manipulate its memory and program, to make it do anything it desired. Without the ability to maintain its own integrity, the agent was relatively useless in many ecommerce applications. Various techniques were suggested to partially address this, such as splitting the agent functionality among multiple agents which would run on different machines, or using cryptographic methods for computing with encrypted instances and the like. But these were inherently so inefficient that any advantages mobile agents might have had were eliminated compared to such things as web services. Ideally you'd like your agent to truly be autonomous, with its own data, its own code, all protected from the host and other agents. It could even carry a store of electronic cash which it could use to fund its activities on the host machine. It could remember its interactions on earlier machines in an uncorruptable way. And you'd like it to run efficiently, without the enormous overheads of the cryptographic techniques. Superficially such a capability seems impossible. Agents can't have that kind of autonomy. But trusted computing can change this. It can give agents good protection as they move through the net. Imagine that host computers run a special program, an Agent Virtual Machine or AVM. This program runs the agents in their object language, and it respects each agent's code and data. It does not corrupt the agents, it does not manipulate or copy their memory without authorization from the agent itself. It allows the agents to act in the autonomous fashion we would desire. Without trusted computing, the problem of course is that there is no way to be sure that a potential host is running a legitimate version of the AVM. It could have a hacked AVM that would allow it to steal cash from the agents, change their memory, and worse. This is where trusted computing can solve the problem. It allows agents to verify that a remote system is running a legitimate AVM before transferring over. Hacked AVMs will have a different hash and this will be detected via the trusted computing mechanisms. Knowing that the remote machine is running a correct implementation of the AVM allows the agent to move about without being molested. In this way, trusted computing can solve one of the biggest problems with effective use of mobile agents. Trusted computing finally allows mobile agent technology to work right. This is just one of what I expect to be thousands of applications which can take advantage of the trusted computing concept. Once you have a whole world of people trying to think creatively about how to use this technology, rather than just a handful, there will be an explosion of new applications which today we would never dream are possible. From remailer at aarg.net Tue Aug 13 00:05:19 2002 From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 00:05:19 -0700 Subject: TCPA and Open Source Message-ID: <493d6827fe7ac4aa92fb4defc2d0ae2a@aarg.net> One of the many charges which has been tossed at TCPA is that it will harm free software. Here is what Ross Anderson writes in the TCPA FAQ at http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/tcpa-faq.html (question 18): > TCPA will undermine the General Public License (GPL), under which > many free and open source software products are distributed.... > > At least two companies have started work on a TCPA-enhanced version of > GNU/linux. This will involve tidying up the code and removing a number > of features. To get a certificate from the TCPA corsortium, the sponsor > will then have to submit the pruned code to an evaluation lab, together > with a mass of documentation showing why various known attacks on the code > don't work. First we have to deal with this certificate business. Most readers probably assume that you need this cert to use the TCPA system, and even that you would not be able to boot into this Linux OS without such a cert. This is part of the longstanding claim that TCPA will only boot signed code. I have refuted this claim many times, and asked for those who disagree to point to where in the spec it says this, without anyone doing so. I can only hope that interested readers may be beginning to believe my claim since if it were false, somebody would have pointed to chapter and verse in the TCPA spec just to shut me up about it if for no better reason. However, Ross is actually right that TCPA does support a concept for a certificate that signs code. It's called a Validation Certificate. The system can hold a number of these VC's, which represent the "presumed correct" results of the measurement (hashing) process on various software and hardware components. In the case of OS code, then, there could be VC's representing specific OS's which could boot. The point is that while this is a form of signed code, it's not something which gives the TPM control over what OS can boot. Instead, the VCs are used to report to third party challengers (on remote systems) what the system configuration of this system is "supposed" to be, along with what it actually is. It's up to the remote challenger to decide if he trusts the issuer of the VC, and if so, he will want to see that the actual measurement (i.e. the hash of the OS) matches the value in the VC. So what Ross says above could potentially be true, if and when TCPA compliant operating systems begin to be developed. Assuming that there will be some consortium which will issue VC's for operating systems, and assuming that third parties will typically trust that consortium and only that one, then you will need to get a VC from that group in order to effectively participate in the TCPA network. This doesn't mean that your PC won't boot the OS without such a cert; it just means that if most people choose to trust the cert issuer, then you will need to get a cert from them to get other people to trust your OS. It's much like the power Verisign has today with X.509; most people's software trusts certs from Verisign, so in practice you pretty much need to get a cert from them to participate in the X.509 PKI. So does this mean that Ross is right, that free software is doomed under TCPA? No, for several reasons, not least being a big mistake he makes: > (The evaluation is at level E3 - expensive enough to keep out > the free software community, yet lax enough for most commercial software > vendors to have a chance to get their lousy code through.) Although the > modified program will be covered by the GPL, and the source code will > be free to everyone, it will not make full use of the TCPA features > unless you have a certificate for it that is specific to the Fritz chip > on your own machine. That is what will cost you money (if not at first, > then eventually). The big mistake is the belief that the cert is specific to the "Fritz" chip (Ross's cute name for the TPM). Actually the VC data structure is not specific to any one PC. It is intentionally designed not to have any identifying information in it that will represent a particular system. This is because the VC cert has to be shown to remote third parties in order to get them to trust the local system, and TCPA tries very hard to protect user privacy (believe it or not!). If the VC had computer-identifying information in it, then it would be a linkable identifier for all TCPA interactions on the net, which would defeat all of the work TCPA does with Privacy CAs and whatnot to try to protect user privacy. If you understand this, you will see that the whole TCPA concept requires VC's not to be machine specific. People always complain when I point to the spec, as if the use of facts were somehow unfair in this dispute. But if you are willing, you can look at section 9.5.4 of http://www.trustedcomputing.org/docs/main%20v1_1b.pdf, which is the data structure for the validation certificate. It is an X.509 attribute certificate, which is a type of cert that would normally be expected to point back at the machine-specific endorsement cert. But in this case they have altered the Holder field, which normally performs this function, to instead hold the measurement result that the certificate asserts is correct (i.e. in this context, the hash of the OS). As a result, no data in the VC is machine specific. The bottom line is that VCs are not machine specific and are designed not to be. Therefore if HP or anyone else gets a cert on their version of Linux, anyone will be able to use that same cert and prove to remote users that they are running a TCPA compliant OS. This contradicts one of Ross's main claims above. In fact, with Microsoft now apparently commited to Palladium, it appears that if TCPA survives at all, it may be solely as a Linux phenomenon! Reports are that both HP and IBM are working on Linux compatible versions of TCPA. Ironically, not only is Ross's claim wrong about TCPA undermining open source, it could conceivably turn out that TCPA will be completely reliant on open source operating systems. At the same time I think it is fair to say that there is an inherent conflict between the usual development techniques for open source code, and the requirements for security certification. Once an OS has been certified by some respected body as being secure and trusted along TCPA lines, then changes to the code will invalidate the certification. This makes sense on two levels. Logically, if the code has changed from what was inspected and certified, we can no longer have the same guarantees that the security properties have been preserved. And in terms of syntax, with the TCPA Validation Certificate holding a hash of the certified code, making any change will change the hash and so the certificate will be invalid. The result is that any modification to the code, no matter how slight, will change the hash and keep it from being usable with the old VC. Of course, the same thing happens with commercial code. But GPL tends to rely more on frequent, small, incremental changes - "release early and often". This practice will not work well with a hash-based security certification concept. There may be some creative workarounds possible for "trusted Linux" developers. They could set up their own certification infrastructure and allow core Linux kernel team members to issue certs. Especially if TCPA is not used on Windows systems, as seems likely to be the case now, Linux kernel developers will have considerable leverage in working out the best way to tackle this problem. Keep in mind, too, that one can make a strong case that open source code in general is a far better fit for the general concept of remote trust that TCPA/Palladium attempt to build. If your trusted system is running code whose source you can inspect, code which you might even be able to build yourself from source, you can have much greater confidence and peace of mind when you allow it to run on your system. I would be much more likely to trust a piece of software that was going to lock up its data, if I could be confident of exactly what it was doing. Adam Back wrote earlier about ideas to let the user inspect the data stream into or out of a Palladium application. I responded that this would invalidate the security guarantees for a large and interesting class of apps, such as the secure P2P enhancements I have sketched. But you can achieve much of what Adam wanted simply by choosing to run open source Palladium apps. Those are the ones where you know exactly what you are trusting the system to do. They are the ones that you know have no backdoor, spyware, or other objectionable, secret features. And note that in the context of application programs, there is no need for the OS certification described above. Trust in these programs would be handled on a completely decentralized basis, with each distributed application handling its own trust decisions. There would be no centralized certification system. Rather, the software would decide for itself which versions to trust. Summing up, it is at best a vast oversimplification to say that TCPA is a GPL-killer. It may cause some problems specifically for Linux due to the need to get certifications that are widely accepted. But it sounds like HP and possibly IBM are going to at least get the ball rolling with these certifications, so we can expect a TCPA compliant Linux in some form. And Linux developers may be able to come up with mechanisms that will allow them to continue making frequent Linux releases while still being able to support TCPA features. For general applications, TCPA/Palladium could be a tremendous marketing opportunity for open source. Transparency and trust go together like hand in glove. In the long run I think the open source community will thrive and benefit from TCPA and Palladium. From OoAmBiGuOuSQToO at msn.com Mon Aug 12 20:59:32 2002 From: OoAmBiGuOuSQToO at msn.com (OoAmBiGuOuSQToO at msn.com) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 05:59:32 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: *Buddy* *Lists*!!~ (it's soooo cool)!!~ Message-ID: <200208130359.g7D3xWX03698@metro.bahnhof.se> Below is the result of your feedback form. It was submitted by (OoAmBiGuOuSQToO at msn.com) on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 at 05:59:32 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- message: Hey!! What's Up? I'm *Monica* 20/F/Arizona/Webcam & Pics. I'm *LIVE* on my *FREE* Webcam mostly 24/7 so if you wanna come in and chat or see a couple of my pics on my website please go to my Personal Homepage at http://www.freelivewebcamchicks.net and hopefully i'll talk to you in a bit hun! If you join and the webchat is already full im sorry, just wait like 5 minutes and then you'll be able to see me LIVE!! If you don't have a webcam of your own its okay!! You can still watch and chat with me then!! *Remember* this is my Personal Homepage so of course its *FREE*!!! *ByE* <333 Monica <333 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jtrjtrjtr2001 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 13 06:28:52 2002 From: jtrjtrjtr2001 at yahoo.com (gfgs pedo) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 06:28:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: test mail-(pls ignore) Message-ID: <20020813132852.34877.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com> test. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com From eresrch at eskimo.com Tue Aug 13 06:29:22 2002 From: eresrch at eskimo.com (Mike Rosing) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 06:29:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Another application for trusted computing In-Reply-To: <4ef29e56fbb8a06e34fb5369fecbf741@aarg.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Aug 2002, AARG! Anonymous wrote: > Ideally you'd like your agent to truly be autonomous, with its own data, > its own code, all protected from the host and other agents. It could even > carry a store of electronic cash which it could use to fund its activities > on the host machine. It could remember its interactions on earlier > machines in an uncorruptable way. And you'd like it to run efficiently, > without the enormous overheads of the cryptographic techniques. Yeah, it'd be ideal for the CIA and FBI and KGB and Mossad and MI5 and ... The perfect virus, unseen and untouchable. > Superficially such a capability seems impossible. Agents can't have that > kind of autonomy. But trusted computing can change this. It can give > agents good protection as they move through the net. > > Imagine that host computers run a special program, an Agent Virtual > Machine or AVM. This program runs the agents in their object language, > and it respects each agent's code and data. It does not corrupt the > agents, it does not manipulate or copy their memory without authorization > from the agent itself. It allows the agents to act in the autonomous fashion > we would desire. who's "we"? > Without trusted computing, the problem of course is that there is no > way to be sure that a potential host is running a legitimate version of > the AVM. It could have a hacked AVM that would allow it to steal cash > from the agents, change their memory, and worse. Yeah, much worse - it might let the user know that somebody was watching them! > In this way, trusted computing can solve one of the biggest problems > with effective use of mobile agents. Trusted computing finally allows > mobile agent technology to work right. I don't see the perfect virus as something desirable. > This is just one of what I expect to be thousands of applications which > can take advantage of the trusted computing concept. Once you have a > whole world of people trying to think creatively about how to use this > technology, rather than just a handful, there will be an explosion of > new applications which today we would never dream are possible. Dude, you seem to be on some really nice drugs. Can you get me some? Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike From jamesd at echeque.com Tue Aug 13 08:14:45 2002 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 08:14:45 -0700 Subject: Seth on TCPA at Defcon/Usenix Message-ID: -- On 12 Aug 2002 at 20:38, Mike Rosing wrote: > I'm actually really confused about the whole DRM business > anyway. It seems to me that any data available to human > perceptions can be duplicated. Period. The idea of DRM (as I > understand it) is that you can hand out data to people you don't > trust, and they can't copy it. To me, DRM seems fundamentally > impossible. To me DRM seems possible to the extent that computers themselves are rendered tamper resistant -- that is to say rendered set top boxes not computers, to the extent that unauthorized personnel are prohibited from accessing general purpose computers. To me, TCPA only makes sense as a step towards some of the more monstrous outcomes that have been suggested by myself and others on this list. It does not make sense as a final destination, but only as a first step on a path. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG xnGldvXqRQB8PKwYfVNs7FqNlzHkJtffm/JPsWY9 2NZkA77opkyGpXY+3+uMUIXDusHs6+ZgOeCu7YXgJ From jamesd at echeque.com Tue Aug 13 08:55:29 2002 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 08:55:29 -0700 Subject: TCPA and Open Source In-Reply-To: <493d6827fe7ac4aa92fb4defc2d0ae2a@aarg.net> Message-ID: <3D58C981.24799.2C7372@localhost> -- On 13 Aug 2002 at 0:05, AARG! Anonymous wrote: > The point is that while this is a form of signed code, it's not > something which gives the TPM control over what OS can boot. > Instead, the VCs are used to report to third party challengers > (on remote systems) what the system configuration of this system > is "supposed" to be, along with what it actually is. It does however, enable the state to control what OS one can boot if one wishes to access the internet. It does not seem to me that the TPM is likely to give hollywood what it wants, unless it is backed by such state enforcement. Furthermore, since the TPM gets first whack at boot up, a simple code download to the TPM could change the meaning of the signature, so that the machine will not boot unless running a state authorized operating system. It could well happen that TPM machines become required to go on the internet, and then later only certain operating systems are permitted on the internet, and then later the required operating system upgrades the TPM software so that only authorized operating systems boot at all. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG H/t91jm8hq5pLR2AdFYi2lRoV9AKYBZ7WqqJmKFe 2/IFQaW0fl6ec+TL3iMKMxD6Y0ulGDK7RwqTVJlBQ --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From jamesd at echeque.com Tue Aug 13 08:55:29 2002 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 08:55:29 -0700 Subject: trade-offs of secure programming with Palladium (Re: Palladium: technical limits and implications) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020812161317.03e05818@dierks.org> References: <20020812210759.A846822@exeter.ac.uk> Message-ID: <3D58C981.6928.2C73CD@localhost> -- On 12 Aug 2002 at 16:32, Tim Dierks wrote: > I'm sure that the whole system is secure in theory, but I > believe that it cannot be securely implemented in practice and > that the implied constraints on use & usability will be > unpalatable to consumers and vendors. Or to say the same thing more pithily, if it really is going to be voluntary, it really is not going to give hollywood what they want. If really gives hollywood what they want, it is really going to have to be forced down people's throats. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG q/bTmZrGsVk2BT9JgumhMqvjDmyIbiElvtidl9aP 2/0CXfo6fzHCxpa+SX8o8Jzvyb71S0KzgBs0gDRhN --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From remailer at aarg.net Tue Aug 13 10:10:08 2002 From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG!Anonymous) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:10:08 -0700 Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA Message-ID: <3518ea1e50508a00d3663f8a6d880b8a@aarg.net> Brian LaMacchia writes: > So the complexity isn't in how the keys get initialized on the SCP (hey, it > could be some crazy little hobbit named Mel who runs around to every machine > and puts them in with a magic wand). The complexity is in the keying > infrastructure and the set of signed statements (certificates, for lack of a > better word) that convey information about how the keys were generated & > stored. Those statements need to be able to represent to other applications > what protocols were followed and precautions taken to protect the private > key. Assuming that there's something like a cert chain here, the root of > this chain chould be an OEM, an IHV, a user, a federal agency, your company, > etc. Whatever that root is, the application that's going to divulge secrets > to the SCP needs to be convinced that the key can be trusted (in the > security sense) not to divulge data encrypted to it to third parties. > Palladium needs to look at the hardware certificates and reliably tell > (under user control) what they are. Anyone can decide if they trust the > system based on the information given; Palladium simply guarantees that it > won't tell anyone your secrets without your explicit request.. This makes a lot of sense, especially for "closed" systems like business LANs and WANs where there is a reasonable centralized authority who can validate the security of the SCP keys. I suggested some time back that since most large businesses receive and configure their computers in the IT department before making them available to employees, that would be a time that they could issue private certs on the embedded SCP keys. The employees' computers could then be configured to use these private certs for their business computing. However the larger vision of trusted computing leverages the global internet and turns it into what is potentially a giant distributed computer. For this to work, for total strangers on the net to have trust in the integrity of applications on each others' machines, will require some kind of centralized trust infrastructure. It may possibly be multi-rooted but you will probably not be able to get away from this requirement. The main problem, it seems to me, is that validating the integrity of the SCP keys cannot be done remotely. You really need physical access to the SCP to be able to know what key is inside it. And even that is not enough, if it is possible that the private key may also exist outside, perhaps because the SCP was initialized by loading an externally generated public/private key pair. You not only need physical access, you have to be there when the SCP is initialized. In practice it seems that only the SCP manufacturer, or at best the OEM who (re) initializes the SCP before installing it on the motherboard, will be in a position to issue certificates. No other central authorities will have physical access to the chips on a near-universal scale at the time of their creation and installation, which is necessary to allow them to issue meaningful certs. At least with the PGP "web of trust" people could in principle validate their keys over the phone, and even then most PGP users never got anyone to sign their keys. An effective web of trust seems much more difficult to achieve with Palladium, except possibly in small groups that already trust each other anyway. If we do end up with only a few trusted root keys, most internet-scale trusted computing software is going to have those roots built in. Those keys will be extremely valuable, potentially even more so than Verisign's root keys, because trusted computing is actually a far more powerful technology than the trivial things done today with PKI. I hope the Palladium designers give serious thought to the issue of how those trusted root keys can be protected appropriately. It's not going to be enough to say "it's not our problem". For trusted computing to reach its potential, security has to be engineered into the system from the beginning - and that security must start at the root! --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From kh at al-qaeda.com Tue Aug 13 10:38:21 2002 From: kh at al-qaeda.com (Khoder bin Hakkin) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:38:21 -0700 Subject: Colin plays dumb, Russians don't want Peace CorpSpies Message-ID: <3D59440D.2C0DDB85@al-qaeda.com> MOSCOW (AP) - Secretary of State Colin Powell made no progress in discussions with his Russian counterpart in overcoming Moscow's unexplained refusal to grant visas to Peace Corps volunteers, a U.S. Embassy official said Tuesday. U.S. officials are negotiating with the Foreign Ministry and the Education Ministry, but the visa problem - which has forced Washington to cancel plans to send a new batch of volunteers to Russia this year - remains unresolved, said an embassy official, speaking on condition of anonymity. http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAI0B8XT4D.html ........ Goodness! You mean the US is stuck with only embassy staff, no "Peace Corp" Spies in the field? -- "Better bombing through chemistry." -John Pike, director of Globalsecurity.org on use of speed by US pilots From lynn.wheeler at firstdata.com Tue Aug 13 10:43:31 2002 From: lynn.wheeler at firstdata.com (lynn.wheeler at firstdata.com) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 11:43:31 -0600 Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA Message-ID: actually it is possible to build chips that generate keys as part of manufactoring power-on/test (while still in the wafer, and the private key never, ever exists outside of the chip) ... and be at effectively the same trust level as any other part of the chip (i.e. hard instruction ROM). using such a key pair than can uniquely authenticate a chip .... effectively becomes as much a part of the chip as the ROM or the chip serial number, etc. The public/private key pair .... if appropriately protected (with evaluated, certified and audited process) then can be considered somewhat more trusted than a straight serial number aka a straight serial number can be skimmed and replayed ... where a digital signature on unique data is harder to replay/spoof. the hips come with unique public/private key where the private key is never known. sometimes this is a difficult consept ... the idea of a public/private key pair as a form of a "difficult to spoof" chip serial .... when all uses of public/private key, asymmetric cryptograhy might have always been portrayed as equilanet to x.509 identity certificates (it is possible to show in large percentage of the systems that public/private key digital signatures are sufficient for authentication and any possible certificates are both redundant and superfulous). misc. ref (aads chip strawman): http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/index.html#aads http://www.asuretee.com/ remailer at aasg.net on 6/13/2002 11:10 am wrote: This makes a lot of sense, especially for "closed" systems like business LANs and WANs where there is a reasonable centralized authority who can validate the security of the SCP keys. I suggested some time back that since most large businesses receive and configure their computers in the IT department before making them available to employees, that would be a time that they could issue private certs on the embedded SCP keys. The employees' computers could then be configured to use these private certs for their business computing. However the larger vision of trusted computing leverages the global internet and turns it into what is potentially a giant distributed computer. For this to work, for total strangers on the net to have trust in the integrity of applications on each others' machines, will require some kind of centralized trust infrastructure. It may possibly be multi-rooted but you will probably not be able to get away from this requirement. The main problem, it seems to me, is that validating the integrity of the SCP keys cannot be done remotely. You really need physical access to the SCP to be able to know what key is inside it. And even that is not enough, if it is possible that the private key may also exist outside, perhaps because the SCP was initialized by loading an externally generated public/private key pair. You not only need physical access, you have to be there when the SCP is initialized. In practice it seems that only the SCP manufacturer, or at best the OEM who (re) initializes the SCP before installing it on the motherboard, will be in a position to issue certificates. No other central authorities will have physical access to the chips on a near-universal scale at the time of their creation and installation, which is necessary to allow them to issue meaningful certs. At least with the PGP "web of trust" people could in principle validate their keys over the phone, and even then most PGP users never got anyone to sign their keys. An effective web of trust seems much more difficult to achieve with Palladium, except possibly in small groups that already trust each other anyway. If we do end up with only a few trusted root keys, most internet-scale trusted computing software is going to have those roots built in. Those keys will be extremely valuable, potentially even more so than Verisign's root keys, because trusted computing is actually a far more powerful technology than the trivial things done today with PKI. I hope the Palladium designers give serious thought to the issue of how those trusted root keys can be protected appropriately. It's not going to be enough to say "it's not our problem". For trusted computing to reach its potential, security has to be engineered into the system from the beginning - and that security must start at the root! --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From gbroiles at parrhesia.com Tue Aug 13 12:09:42 2002 From: gbroiles at parrhesia.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 12:09:42 -0700 Subject: Reply for Dan Veeneman, Spam blocklists? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020813120519.036f2120@bivens.parrhesia.com> At 07:25 PM 8/13/2002 +0100, Peter Fairbrother wrote: >The above email got bounced, does anyone know why? Neither my (62.3.121.225) >nor the .zen.co.uk IP's are blacklisted anywhere I can find. 208.249.200.24 >is on one list (xbl.selwerd.cx), but that isn't (?) the sender. parmenides.zen.co.uk was on spam blocklists until very recently - see http://groups.google.com/groups?q=212.23.8.69+group:news.admin.net-abuse.*&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8&scoring=d&selm=aij5pl%2414guph%241%40ID-66783.news.dfncis.de&rnum=1 for a discussion of that, or http://www.dsbl.org/listing.php?ip=212.23.8.69 for the literal details including results of relay tests; and see http://groups.google.com/groups?q=212.23.8.69+group:news.admin.net-abuse.*&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8&scoring=d&selm=001901c1ead6%24c6bd9a20%244fcf44c6%40default&rnum=4 for an example of spam that was relayed through that server. >Osirusoft seems to be a spam blocker, but blocking legitimate mail is going >too far. I'd rather have the spam. And I object strongly to third (or >fourth) parties deciding what to do with my mail. It's the recipient, or someone acting on their behalf, who's deciding what to do with *their* mail, at least from the recipient's perspective. -- Greg Broiles -- gbroiles at parrhesia.com -- PGP 0x26E4488c or 0x94245961 From jays at panix.com Tue Aug 13 10:43:10 2002 From: jays at panix.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 13:43:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA In-Reply-To: <3518ea1e50508a00d3663f8a6d880b8a@aarg.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Aug 2002, AARG!Anonymous wrote: < ... /> > > However the larger vision of trusted computing leverages the global > internet and turns it into what is potentially a giant distributed > computer. For this to work, for total strangers on the net to have > trust in the integrity of applications on each others' machines, will > require some kind of centralized trust infrastructure. It may possibly > be multi-rooted but you will probably not be able to get away from > this requirement. No. Safe distributed computing can be attained without any such centralized control system. Just as thermodynamic behavior needs no centralized system of control of atomic behavior, but rather proceeds by way of statistical mechanics, so safe mass computations may be accomplished by application of one engineering branch of statistical mechanics, called information theory. The main publications are from the Fifties and Sixties. oo--JS. From Commissioner at fantasysportshq.com Tue Aug 13 13:51:14 2002 From: Commissioner at fantasysportshq.com (Commissioner) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 13:51:14 Subject: You Have An E-Card!!! Message-ID: <200208131838.g7DIcb7c030825@ak47.algebra.com> You have been sent an E-Card Invitation. To See Your Card click http://www.fantasysportshq.com/content/invitation.html You have received this email as a member of Fantasy Sports HQ or one of its partners. From time to time we will contact you about special offers and discounts on exciting fantasy games, contests or advertising from our sponsors. If you do not wish to receive such notifications, simply reply to this message with the word "REMOVE" in the SUBJECT LINE and we will remove you from future mailings. From gabe at seul.org Tue Aug 13 11:23:50 2002 From: gabe at seul.org (Gabriel Rocha) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 14:23:50 -0400 Subject: [aleph1@securityfocus.com: Implementation of Chosen-Ciphertext Attacks against PGP and GnuPG] Message-ID: <20020813142350.A26553@seul.org> Figured this might be of interest to folks here... ----- Forwarded message from aleph1 at securityfocus.com ----- From kh at al-qaeda.com Tue Aug 13 15:25:25 2002 From: kh at al-qaeda.com (Khoder bin Hakkin) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 15:25:25 -0700 Subject: Polio, DES Crack, and Proofs of Concept Message-ID: <3D598755.C9885F11@al-qaeda.com> In the most recent _Science_ some biologists gripe that the scientists who synthesized infectious poliovirus from its description were not doing anything novel, just a "prank". Any biologist would have known that, since you could concatenate nucleotide strings, and since polio needs nothing besides DNA (eg no enzymes) to be infectious, obviously you can synth polio. This is *remarkably* similar to cognescenti reactions to the DES Crack project. Yes, it was obvious it would work, and it was largely unnecessary (from a security-planning perspective) to actually do it. But it was proof-of-concept. Like synthesizing polio. -- "Better bombing through chemistry." -John Pike, director of Globalsecurity.org on use of speed by US pilots From Wilfred at Cryogen.com Tue Aug 13 13:37:40 2002 From: Wilfred at Cryogen.com (Wilfred L. Guerin) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 15:37:40 -0500 Subject: [WLG]: Regarding HAARP Technologies Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020813153740.00abd480@127.0.0.1> [Repost Openly.] Though my knowledge of various technologies that are sometimes called "HAARP" type weapons or technologies associated thereto due to technological similarities is vast, some recent events should be thoroughly examined and publicised in order to prevent large-scale mass-destruction issues or stimulators of global conflict. Let us start with an examination of fact: Pull up NOAA Weather maps for the weeks around the 1st of August, 2002. Notice a large "Tropical storm" in the northern Gulf Coast (South-eastern USA), one that does not move for over a week. Notice, in this storm development, that regardless of strong jetstream, altitude winds to the east/etc in significant force for cloud motion in all other regions in parallel fashion, this storm cluster did NOT move or change physical arrangement for almost a whole week. Note, in the storm layout, 3 distinct clusters of high-energy storms, static in their position and relation to each other. --- Facts: During this time period, *Vatican* arrives in New Orleans with full enterage, after a trip through Mexico, and has both ground teams and "highly relevant people" blanketing the city. So extensive were their operations, that on numerous occasions in my wanderings through the Quarter, was I almost hit by a speeding Vatican security transport vehicle. Vatican had, at the least, 4 *Large* ships, and a number of "support" vessels, off the coast of New Orleans and Biloxi (MS). In addition, 4 independant religious groups had additional large vessels within the same region, some "restocking" for missionary operations southward, others with unknown relevance. (Not even including the typical few hundred industrial and transport vessels.) --- More Facts: Historicly, the city of New Orleans has a number of significant social, business, and mainly religious purposes. New Orleans is founded as the Catholic and Protest churches of europe engage large-scale war and whatnot, as a haven and secure location for the storage of both the individuals of high religious significance and their genetic lines, as well as a LARGE ammount of physical items "stolen" from the religious facilities and placed away in safe keeping. These facts of the city's history are public knowledge; charged with the protectorate thereof, are a LARGE number of social organizations and related business operations, of global scale, typically considered "undesirable" entities for cover, many engagued in the global drug empires and Stateside illicit operations {MOB/Mafia - type operations, covert intel, counter-intel groups within the FBI, CIA, DEA/DOJ, etc (Counter-FEDERAL), and a plethra of others. A large majority of corporate research divisions and related high-industry are also logisticly controlled from social central groups from/of this city. No less the Media industry.) The religious implications, are that by definition in a LARGE number of religious texts, ranging from the Bible through Far-East prophecies, and all in between, the primary trigger to indicate the "End of the World" is the *flooding* of a major city designed and charged with the protection and safety of these various above things. New Orleans, intentionally, is built below sea level, has a massive vault and storage structure extending hundreds of feet below the old city, and remains home to the majority of counter-intel operatives while not on active duty, no less being a primary port of transport for narcotics distribution into a majority of the US under federal operations (top level pre-cut distribution). --- I shall let you connect the logic here, but I suggest you review the *latest* year's worth of mass-media content, most specificly, the Music and Music Video industries. Music Videos: the most effective distribution mechanism of concepts and whatnot immediately into the core of the social population of the US/etc. Let us check, for example, "Creed" "My Sacrifice" and related videos, their website has the video available, if you don't see it elsewhere. The theater, is "State Pallace Theater" (which in reality, currently has no sign in front), the rest of the buildings there, are all Canal Street of New Orleans, LA, USA. Profetic? Not unless someone floods the city. The relevance extends to approximately 80% of the current mass-media releases, beit explicit video references such as this, or in word-interpretation of the vocal tracks. --- Now lets just say, with the culmination of a LOT of issues that week, would it not be effective for such entities as christianity's largest church, coupled with the current dictatorship of the USA, to effectively flood out a religious-based city in order to start a massive religious war? War is good for churchs. The current Nazi regime seems to be failing in starting large-scale religious-motivated wars. ("Islam did it!") Why not try to flood out a city of known significance? (Im concerned with the numerous physical devices left both upstream and on the backwater by the Vatican and their affiliates under religious guise, which most likely include LARGE explosive charges.) --- Now go back to your weather maps... How, do tell, could 3 storms exist in exactly the same location and layout for over a week naturally? Now, if per chance, you stuck a stick vertically into a stream, would there not be "trailing" ripples from doing such? What if this "stick" is an artificial cloud generating apparatus or resulting physical ramifications thereof? Do you see windward trailing ripples in the satilite and weather imagry? --- Now, granted I publicly started referencing these issues that week, and directly to some of the priest-type people (Im not gonna say covert, but they sure as hell weren't serving as tourists...) wandering around that week... I'll leave out the rest of the more pertinant issues, and allow you to ponder the above. Ponder this publicly. -Wilfred L. Guerin Wilfred at Cryogen.com From free at sex.com Tue Aug 13 07:25:47 2002 From: free at sex.com (free at sex.com) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 17:25:47 +0300 Subject: Free Porno Movies Message-ID: <200208131428.g7DES1J57701@locust.minder.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1607 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jamesd at echeque.com Tue Aug 13 22:41:02 2002 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 22:41:02 -0700 Subject: Spam blocklists? In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020813120519.036f2120@bivens.parrhesia.com> Message-ID: <3D598AFE.8110.112304C@localhost> -- On 14 Aug 2002 at 4:36, Peter Fairbrother wrote: > For instance, limiting the number of recipients of an email > (the cryptogeek system I'm working on [m-o-o-t] just allows > one), or limiting the number of emails one IP can send per > day (adjusted for number of users). > > There was an EU proposal to force spammers (who are not > always unwanted) to put [ADV] in the Subject: line, with > appropriate penalties if they failed to, but it didn't happen > (and we got long-term traffic data retention instead). > > I don't know offhand how to do it, but having unelected and > unaccountable people (making the conditions for) stopping my > email is unacceptable. Solution is obvious and has been known for a long time Integrate payment with email. If anyone not on your approved list wants to send you mail, they have to pay you x, where x is a trivial sum, say a cent or two. Spammers wind up sending huge amounts of mail to unmonitored mailboxes, which will make spamming unprofitable. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG DIY+MmmrLQhijrJvvUennc4PKuW3ydzF1s8Phfvc 2thHL52WvLYLBuy1gMvfbs8U1toNuUIIWvvhnySCw From ashwood at msn.com Tue Aug 13 22:58:58 2002 From: ashwood at msn.com (Joseph Ashwood) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 22:58:58 -0700 Subject: Overcoming the potential downside of TCPA Message-ID: <01da01c24357$f8e3f560$6601a8c0@josephas> Lately on both of these lists there has been quite some discussion about TCPA and Palladium, the good, the bad, the ugly, and the anonymous. :) However there is something that is very much worth noting, at least about TCPA. There is nothing stopping a virtualized version being created. There is nothing that stops say VMWare from synthesizing a system view that includes a virtual TCPA component. This makes it possible to (if desired) remove all cryptographic protection. Of course such a software would need to be sold as a "development tool" but we all know what would happen. Tools like VMWare have been developed by others, and as I recall didn't take all that long to do. As such they can be anonymously distributed, and can almost certainly be stored entirely on a boot CD, using the floppy drive to store the keys (although floppy drives are no longer a "cool" thing to have in a system), boot from the CD, it runs a small kernel that virtualizes and allows debugging of the TPM/TSS which allows the viewing, copying and replacement of private keys on demand. Of course this is likely to quickly become illegal, or may already, but that doesn't stop the possibility of creating such a system. For details on how to create this virtualized TCPA please refer to the TCPA spec. Joe --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From zenadsl6186 at zen.co.uk Tue Aug 13 20:36:44 2002 From: zenadsl6186 at zen.co.uk (Peter Fairbrother) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 04:36:44 +0100 Subject: Spam blocklists? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020813120519.036f2120@bivens.parrhesia.com> Message-ID: Greg Broiles wrote: [...] >> Osirusoft seems to be a spam blocker, but blocking legitimate mail is going >> too far. I'd rather have the spam. And I object strongly to third (or >> fourth) parties deciding what to do with my mail. > > It's the recipient, or someone acting on their behalf, who's deciding what > to do with > *their* mail, at least from the recipient's perspective. One of the ISP's I use (only until the contract ends!!) now forces me to employ spam blocking, I have no choice. Quote "It is necessary for Freezone Internet to put such measures in place in order to ensure that other mail servers on the Internet do not block traffic originating from Freezone Internet's mail servers. If Freezone Internet were to be blocked, eventually over 90% of your email potentially may not be received or delivered to its recipients." IMO this is just plain wrong. Spam is a problem, no doubt, but it's not evil or anything, and I object to people stopping my email, for whatever reason (DoS attacks are another matter). There used to be an offence of interfering with the Royal Mail (in the UK, with horrendous penalties). While the per-message cost of email is so low that that concept is no longer viable for email, there must be better ways to limit spam. For instance, limiting the number of recipients of an email (the cryptogeek system I'm working on [m-o-o-t] just allows one), or limiting the number of emails one IP can send per day (adjusted for number of users). There was an EU proposal to force spammers (who are not always unwanted) to put [ADV] in the Subject: line, with appropriate penalties if they failed to, but it didn't happen (and we got long-term traffic data retention instead). I don't know offhand how to do it, but having unelected and unaccountable people (making the conditions for) stopping my email is unacceptable. If somehow there was a limit to the number of people an email could be sent to without a willing "passing on" by a human, that could limit the damage spam could do, and be a better way to do it than involving stopping real (false positive) emails. A slightly drunk (you don't see me here very drunk that often, lucky someone.... , -- Peter Fairbrother From cme at acm.org Wed Aug 14 06:32:10 2002 From: cme at acm.org (Carl Ellison) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 06:32:10 -0700 Subject: Overcoming the potential downside of TCPA In-Reply-To: <01da01c24357$f8e3f560$6601a8c0@josephas> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020814063210.01c7e708@localhost> At 10:58 PM 8/13/2002 -0700, Joseph Ashwood wrote: >Lately on both of these lists there has been quite some discussion >about TCPA and Palladium, the good, the bad, the ugly, and the >anonymous. :) However there is something that is very much worth >noting, at least about TCPA. > >There is nothing stopping a virtualized version being created. The only thing to stop that is the certificate on the TCPA's built-in key. You would have to shave one TCPA chip and use its key in the virtualized version. If you distributed that shaved key publicly or just to too many people, then its compromise would likely be detected and its power to attest to S/W configuration would be revoked. However, if you kept the key yourself and used it only at the same frequency you normally would (for the normal set of actions), then the compromise could not be detected and you should be able to run virtualized very happily. That's one of the main problems with TCPA, IMHO, as a security mechanism: that its security depends on hardware tamper resistance -- but at the same time, the TPM needs to be a cheap part, so it can't be very tamper resistant. - Carl +------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Carl M. Ellison cme at acm.org http://world.std.com/~cme | | PGP: 75C5 1814 C3E3 AAA7 3F31 47B9 73F1 7E3C 96E7 2B71 | +---Officer, arrest that man. He's whistling a copyrighted song.---+ --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From rah at shipwright.com Wed Aug 14 05:13:48 2002 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 08:13:48 -0400 Subject: MS recruits for Palladium microkernel and/or DRM platform Message-ID: http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/26651.html MS recruits for Palladium microkernel and/or DRM platform By John Lettice Posted: 13/08/2002 at 10:23 GMT Microsoft's efforts to disassociate Palladium from DRM seem to have hit their first speed bump. Some voices within the company (and we currently believe these voices to be right and sensible) hold the view that Palladium has to be about users' security if it's to stand any chance of winning hearts and minds, and that associating it with protecting the music business' IP will be the kiss of death. So they'll probably not be best pleased by the Microsoft job ad that seeks a group program manager "interested in being part of Microsoft's effort to build the Digital Rights Management (DRM) and trusted platforms of the future (Palladium)." [...] ---------- --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From jtrjtrjtr2001 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 14 08:15:07 2002 From: jtrjtrjtr2001 at yahoo.com (gfgs pedo) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 08:15:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [WLG]: Regarding HAARP Technologies In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20020813153740.00abd480@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <20020814151507.92238.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com> hi, The HAARP,project is in Alaska and they claim,that their experiments are precise and can ionise the particluar region of interest unlike russian ones which ionise in bulk and is not a hazard. I am not very sure,i follow ur mail. Regards Data. --- "Wilfred L. Guerin" wrote: > [Repost Openly.] > > Though my knowledge of various technologies that are > sometimes called > "HAARP" type weapons or technologies associated > thereto due to > technological similarities is vast, some recent > events should be thoroughly > examined and publicised in order to prevent > large-scale mass-destruction > issues or stimulators of global conflict. > > Let us start with an examination of fact: > > Pull up NOAA Weather maps for the weeks around the > 1st of August, 2002. > > Notice a large "Tropical storm" in the northern Gulf > Coast (South-eastern > USA), one that does not move for over a week. > > Notice, in this storm development, that regardless > of strong jetstream, > altitude winds to the east/etc in significant force > for cloud motion in all > other regions in parallel fashion, this storm > cluster did NOT move or > change physical arrangement for almost a whole week. > > Do you see windward trailing ripples in the satilite > and weather imagry? > > --- > > Now, granted I publicly started referencing these > issues === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com From sunder at sunder.net Wed Aug 14 06:10:36 2002 From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 09:10:36 -0400 (edt) Subject: Spam blocklists? In-Reply-To: <001801c24393$eb23f150$a36e9cd9@mark> Message-ID: None of those things work. Most spammers don't give a shit if you don't receive email. I can attest to this by the slew of spam going to hostmaster, webmaster, and the like on many networks. What they're really selling is "ten million addresses" and spam software. Even if 9 million of those are bullshit, they couldn't care less. The more things with "@" signs in'em the more money they make off clueless businesses. ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :NSA got $20Bill/year|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :and didn't stop 9-11|share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:Instead of rewarding|monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :their failures, we |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :should get refunds! |site, and you must change them very often. --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Marcel Popescu wrote: > From: "James A. Donald" > > > Solution is obvious and has been known for a long time > > Integrate payment with email. If anyone not on your approved > > list wants to send you mail, they have to pay you x, where x is > > a trivial sum, say a cent or two. > > > > Spammers wind up sending huge amounts of mail to unmonitored > > mailboxes, which will make spamming unprofitable. > > There is also Wei Dai's idea of b-money, I think, which requires every > incoming mail to solve a problem about hashes. This could be included in the > SMTP protocol, so that the server can generate the challenge dinamically (to > prevent replays). This would limit the amount of spam without requiring any > "real" money. > > Mark From mfidelman at civicnet.org Wed Aug 14 07:58:45 2002 From: mfidelman at civicnet.org (Miles Fidelman) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 10:58:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: status of various projects? Message-ID: It seems like a lot of interesting projects haven't been active for a while - notably Free Haven and Eternity Usenet. Where is the most active work, these days, on distributed publishing systems? ************************************************************************** The Center for Civic Networking PO Box 600618 Miles R. Fidelman, President & Newtonville, MA 02460-0006 Director, Municipal Telecommunications Strategies Program 617-558-3698 fax: 617-630-8946 mfidelman at civicnet.org http://civic.net/ccn.html Information Infrastructure: Public Spaces for the 21st Century Let's Start With: Internet Wall-Plugs Everywhere Say It Often, Say It Loud: "I Want My Internet!" ************************************************************************** From kh at al-qaeda.com Wed Aug 14 11:46:32 2002 From: kh at al-qaeda.com (Khoder bin Hakkin) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 11:46:32 -0700 Subject: Chicago posts names, addresses on 'net, "promises to remove" after fine payment Message-ID: <3D5AA588.564B5917@al-qaeda.com> story at: http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-park14.html Identities at: http://www.cityofchicago.org/Revenue/Parking/100Scofflaws.pdf The best part: Chicago says: "individuals will be removed from this list". However, the list will not be removed, as the Net Memory is Long. The Chicago office of Blacknet LLC seeks the names, addresses, etc. of responsible bureaucrats. -- "Better bombing through chemistry." -John Pike, director of Globalsecurity.org on use of speed by US pilots From ben at algroup.co.uk Wed Aug 14 05:16:56 2002 From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 13:16:56 +0100 Subject: Overcoming the potential downside of TCPA References: <01da01c24357$f8e3f560$6601a8c0@josephas> Message-ID: <3D5A4A38.20609@algroup.co.uk> Joseph Ashwood wrote: > Lately on both of these lists there has been quite some discussion about > TCPA and Palladium, the good, the bad, the ugly, and the anonymous. :) > However there is something that is very much worth noting, at least about > TCPA. > > There is nothing stopping a virtualized version being created. > > There is nothing that stops say VMWare from synthesizing a system view that > includes a virtual TCPA component. This makes it possible to (if desired) > remove all cryptographic protection. > > Of course such a software would need to be sold as a "development tool" but > we all know what would happen. Tools like VMWare have been developed by > others, and as I recall didn't take all that long to do. As such they can be > anonymously distributed, and can almost certainly be stored entirely on a > boot CD, using the floppy drive to store the keys (although floppy drives > are no longer a "cool" thing to have in a system), boot from the CD, it runs > a small kernel that virtualizes and allows debugging of the TPM/TSS which > allows the viewing, copying and replacement of private keys on demand. > > Of course this is likely to quickly become illegal, or may already, but that > doesn't stop the possibility of creating such a system. For details on how > to create this virtualized TCPA please refer to the TCPA spec. What prevents this from being useful is the lack of an appropriate certificate for the private key in the TPM. Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ Available for contract work. "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From cypherpunks at Algebra.COM Wed Aug 14 12:15:33 2002 From: cypherpunks at Algebra.COM (cypherpunks at Algebra.COM) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 14:15:33 -0500 Subject: Mortgage Rates Have Never Been Lower Message-ID: <3C1S7NPG3E5IG.N74M7S05NPRH2X4UNC.cypherpunks@algebra.com> We will help you get the mortgage loan you want! Only takes 2 minutes to fill out our form. http://210.192.108.34/index.php Whether a new home loan is what you seek or to refinance your current home loan at a lower interest rate and payment, we can help! Mortgage rates haven't been this low in the last 12 months, take action now! Refinance your home with us and include all of those pesky credit card bills or use the extra cash for that pool you've always wanted... Where others says NO, we say YES!!! Even if you have been turned down elsewhere, we can help! Easy terms! Our mortgage referral service combines the highest quality loans with most economical rates and the easiest qualification! Click Here to fill out our form. http://210.192.108.34/index.php -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4668 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cypherpunks at Algebra.COM Wed Aug 14 12:17:24 2002 From: cypherpunks at Algebra.COM (cypherpunks at Algebra.COM) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 14:17:24 -0500 Subject: Mortgage Rates Have Never Been Lower Message-ID: We will help you get the mortgage loan you want! Only takes 2 minutes to fill out our form. http://210.192.108.34/index.php Whether a new home loan is what you seek or to refinance your current home loan at a lower interest rate and payment, we can help! Mortgage rates haven't been this low in the last 12 months, take action now! Refinance your home with us and include all of those pesky credit card bills or use the extra cash for that pool you've always wanted... Where others says NO, we say YES!!! Even if you have been turned down elsewhere, we can help! Easy terms! Our mortgage referral service combines the highest quality loans with most economical rates and the easiest qualification! Click Here to fill out our form. http://210.192.108.34/index.php -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4668 bytes Desc: not available URL: From recruiter06045 at msn.com Wed Aug 14 11:57:28 2002 From: recruiter06045 at msn.com (recruiter06045 at msn.com) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 14:57:28 -0400 Subject: What's In It For Me??? Message-ID: <200208141857.g7EIvbNo018011@ak47.algebra.com> Dear Netrepreneur, This is a consumer awareness message. Are you aware that many business opportunities online are not legitimate? That someone is trying to separate you from your hard-earned money? And, that money and business opportunities are not what they sometimes appear to be? Unfortunately, that makes it difficult for the legitimate e-biz to deal with other netrepreneurs online. An article entitled "Twelve Tests For Evaluating a Network Marketing (MLM) Opportunity",by Jon M. 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If you desire to be removed from my list, hit reply with "Remove" in the subject line. From ashwood at msn.com Wed Aug 14 15:10:44 2002 From: ashwood at msn.com (Joseph Ashwood) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 15:10:44 -0700 Subject: Overcoming the potential downside of TCPA References: <01da01c24357$f8e3f560$6601a8c0@josephas> <3D5A4A38.20609@algroup.co.uk> Message-ID: <00de01c243df$d357a660$6601a8c0@josephas> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Laurie" > Joseph Ashwood wrote: > > There is nothing stopping a virtualized version being created. > What prevents this from being useful is the lack of an appropriate > certificate for the private key in the TPM. Actually that does nothing to stop it. Because of the construction of TCPA, the private keys are registered _after_ the owner receives the computer, this is the window of opportunity against that as well. The worst case for cost of this is to purchase an additional motherboard (IIRC Fry's has them as low as $50), giving the ability to present a purchase. The virtual-private key is then created, and registered using the credentials borrowed from the second motherboard. Since TCPA doesn't allow for direct remote queries against the hardware, the virtual system will actually have first shot at the incoming data. That's the worst case. The expected case; you pay a small registration fee claiming that you "accidentally" wiped your TCPA. The best case, you claim you "accidentally" wiped your TCPA, they charge you nothing to remove the record of your old TCPA, and replace it with your new (virtualized) TCPA. So at worst this will cost $50. Once you've got a virtual setup, that virtual setup (with all its associated purchased rights) can be replicated across an unlimited number of computers. The important part for this, is that TCPA has no key until it has an owner, and the owner can wipe the TCPA at any time. From what I can tell this was designed for resale of components, but is perfectly suitable as a point of attack. Joe From adam at cypherspace.org Wed Aug 14 08:09:24 2002 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 16:09:24 +0100 Subject: MS on Palladium, DRM and copy-protection (via job ad) Message-ID: <20020814160924.A883914@exeter.ac.uk> It seems from this article that perhaps MS already had worked out how to do copy protection with Palladium, or at least thinks it possible contrary to what was said at USENIX security: http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/26651.html > [Palladium related job advert...] Our technology allows content > providers, enterprises and consumers to control what others can do > with their digital information, such as documents, music, video, > ebooks, and software. Become a key leader, providing vision and > industry leadership in developing DRM, Palladium and Software > Licensing products and Trust Infrastructure Services. "control what others can do with [...] software. [...] develop DRM [...] and Software Licensing products". Also again shows that Palladium is quite centrally a DRM platform, which is kind of obvious from the design, and anyway from the naming of the associated patent "DRM-OS". Adam From ashwood at msn.com Wed Aug 14 19:23:29 2002 From: ashwood at msn.com (Joseph Ashwood) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 19:23:29 -0700 Subject: Overcoming the potential downside of TCPA References: <01da01c24357$f8e3f560$6601a8c0@josephas> <3D5A4A38.20609@algroup.co.uk> <00de01c243df$d357a660$6601a8c0@josephas> <3D5AE0A4.3080700@algroup.co.uk> Message-ID: <014601c24402$d569cfa0$6601a8c0@josephas> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Laurie" > > The important part for this, is that TCPA has no key until it has an owner, > > and the owner can wipe the TCPA at any time. From what I can tell this was > > designed for resale of components, but is perfectly suitable as a point of > > attack. > > If this is true, I'm really happy about it, and I agree it would allow > virtualisation. I'm pretty sure it won't be for Palladium, but I don't > know about TCPA - certainly it fits the bill for what TCPA is supposed > to do. I certainly don't believe many people to believe me simply because I say it is so. Instead I'll supply a link to the authority of TCPA, the 1.1b specification, it is available at http://www.trustedcomputing.org/docs/main%20v1_1b.pdf . There are other documents, unfortunately the main spec gives substantial leeway, and I haven't had time to read the others (I haven't fully digested the main spec yet either). From that spec, all 332 pages of it, I encourage everyone that wants to decide for themselves to read the spec. If you reach different conclusions than I have, feel free to comment, I'm sure there are many people on these lists that would be interested in justification for either position. Personally, I believe I've processed enough of the spec to state that TCPA is a tool, and like any tool it has both positive and negative aspects. Provided the requirement to be able to turn it off (and for my preference they should add a requirement that the motherboard continue functioning even under the condition that the TCPA module(s) is/are physically removed from the board). The current spec though does seem to have a bend towards being as advertised, being primarily a tool for the user. Whether this will remain in the version 2.0 that is in the works, I cannot say as I have no access to it, although if someone is listening with an NDA nearby, I'd be more than happy to review it. Joe --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From adam at cypherspace.org Wed Aug 14 12:02:21 2002 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 20:02:21 +0100 Subject: TCPA/Palladium user interst vs third party interest (Re: responding to claims about TCPA) In-Reply-To: <200208101102.g7AB2aq30982@new.toad.com>; from gnu@toad.com on Sat, Aug 10, 2002 at 04:02:36AM -0700 References: <200208101102.g7AB2aq30982@new.toad.com> Message-ID: <20020814200221.A866174@exeter.ac.uk> The remote attesation is the feature which is in the interests of third parties. I think if this feature were removed the worst of the issues the complaints are around would go away because the remaining features would be under the control of the user, and there would be no way for third parties to discriminate against users who did not use them, or configured them in given ways. The remaining features of note being sealing, and integrity metric based security boot-strapping. However the remote attestation is clearly the feature that TCPA, and Microsoft place most value on (it being the main feature allowing DRM, and allowing remote influence and control to be exerted on users configuration and software choices). So the remote attesation feature is useful for _servers_ that want to convince clients of their trust-worthiness (that they won't look at content, tamper with the algorithm, or anonymity or privacy properties etc). So you could imagine that feature being a part of server machines, but not part of client machines -- there already exists some distinctions between client and server platforms -- for example high end Intel chips with larger cache etc intended for server market by their pricing. You could imagine the TCPA/Palladium support being available at extra cost for this market. But the remaining problem is that the remote attesation is kind of dual-use (of utility to both user desktop machines and servers). This is because with peer-to-peer applications, user desktop machines are also servers. So the issue has become entangled. It would be useful for individual liberties for remote-attestation features to be widely deployed on desktop class machines to build peer-to-peer systems and anonymity and privacy enhancing systems. However the remote-attestation feature is also against the users interests because it's wide-spread deployment is the main DRM enabling feature and general tool for remote control descrimination against user software and configuration choices. I don't see any way to have the benefits without the negatives, unless anyone has any bright ideas. The remaining questions are: - do the negatives out-weigh the positives (lose ability to reverse-engineer and virtualize applications, and trade software-hacking based BORA for hardware-hacking based ROCA); - are there ways to make remote-attestation not useful for DRM, eg. limited deployment, other; - would the user-positive aspects of remote-attestation still be largely available with only limited-deployment -- eg could interesting peer-to-peer and privacy systems be built with a mixture of remote-attestation able and non-remote-attestation able nodes. Adam -- http://www.cypherspace.org/adam/ On Sat, Aug 10, 2002 at 04:02:36AM -0700, John Gilmore wrote: > One of the things I told them years ago was that they should draw > clean lines between things that are designed to protect YOU, the > computer owner, from third parties; versus things that are designed to > protect THIRD PARTIES from you, the computer owner. This is so > consumers can accept the first category and reject the second, which, > if well-informed, they will do. If it's all a mishmash, then > consumers will have to reject all of it, and Intel can't even improve > the security of their machines FOR THE OWNER, because of their history > of "security" projects that work against the buyer's interest, such as > the Pentium serial number and HDCP. > [...] --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From remailer at aarg.net Wed Aug 14 20:45:25 2002 From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 20:45:25 -0700 Subject: Overcoming the potential downside of TCPA Message-ID: <32a4cf8ffa586294aea3adf85bab2040@aarg.net> Joe Ashwood writes: > Actually that does nothing to stop it. Because of the construction of TCPA, > the private keys are registered _after_ the owner receives the computer, > this is the window of opportunity against that as well. Actually, this is not true for the endoresement key, PUBEK/PRIVEK, which is the "main" TPM key, the one which gets certified by the "TPM Entity". That key is generated only once on a TPM, before ownership, and must exist before anyone can take ownership. For reference, see section 9.2, "The first call to TPM_CreateEndorsementKeyPair generates the endorsement key pair. After a successful completion of TPM_CreateEndorsementKeyPair all subsequent calls return TCPA_FAIL." Also section 9.2.1 shows that no ownership proof is necessary for this step, which is because there is no owner at that time. Then look at section 5.11.1, on taking ownership: "user must encrypt the values using the PUBEK." So the PUBEK must exist before anyone can take ownership. > The worst case for > cost of this is to purchase an additional motherboard (IIRC Fry's has them > as low as $50), giving the ability to present a purchase. The > virtual-private key is then created, and registered using the credentials > borrowed from the second motherboard. Since TCPA doesn't allow for direct > remote queries against the hardware, the virtual system will actually have > first shot at the incoming data. That's the worst case. I don't quite follow what you are proposing here, but by the time you purchase a board with a TPM chip on it, it will have already generated its PUBEK and had it certified. So you should not be able to transfer a credential of this type from one board to another one. > The expected case; > you pay a small registration fee claiming that you "accidentally" wiped your > TCPA. The best case, you claim you "accidentally" wiped your TCPA, they > charge you nothing to remove the record of your old TCPA, and replace it > with your new (virtualized) TCPA. So at worst this will cost $50. Once > you've got a virtual setup, that virtual setup (with all its associated > purchased rights) can be replicated across an unlimited number of computers. > > The important part for this, is that TCPA has no key until it has an owner, > and the owner can wipe the TCPA at any time. From what I can tell this was > designed for resale of components, but is perfectly suitable as a point of > attack. Actually I don't see a function that will let the owner wipe the PUBEK. He can wipe the rest of the TPM but that field appears to be set once, retained forever. For example, section 8.10: "Clear is the process of returning the TPM to factory defaults." But a couple of paragraphs later: "All TPM volatile and non-volatile data is set to default value except the endorsement key pair." So I don't think your fraud will work. Users will not wipe their endorsement keys, accidentally or otherwise. If a chip is badly enough damaged that the PUBEK is lost, you will need a hardware replacement, as I read the spec. Keep in mind that I only started learning this stuff a few weeks ago, so I am not an expert, but this is how it looks to me. From ben at algroup.co.uk Wed Aug 14 12:49:58 2002 From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 20:49:58 +0100 Subject: TCPA/Palladium user interst vs third party interest (Re: responding to claims about TCPA) References: <200208101102.g7AB2aq30982@new.toad.com> <20020814200221.A866174@exeter.ac.uk> Message-ID: <3D5AB466.2010004@algroup.co.uk> Adam Back wrote: > The remote attesation is the feature which is in the interests of > third parties. > > I think if this feature were removed the worst of the issues the > complaints are around would go away because the remaining features > would be under the control of the user, and there would be no way for > third parties to discriminate against users who did not use them, or > configured them in given ways. > > The remaining features of note being sealing, and integrity metric > based security boot-strapping. > > However the remote attestation is clearly the feature that TCPA, and > Microsoft place most value on (it being the main feature allowing DRM, > and allowing remote influence and control to be exerted on users > configuration and software choices). > > So the remote attesation feature is useful for _servers_ that want to > convince clients of their trust-worthiness (that they won't look at > content, tamper with the algorithm, or anonymity or privacy properties > etc). So you could imagine that feature being a part of server > machines, but not part of client machines -- there already exists some > distinctions between client and server platforms -- for example high > end Intel chips with larger cache etc intended for server market by > their pricing. You could imagine the TCPA/Palladium support being > available at extra cost for this market. > > But the remaining problem is that the remote attesation is kind of > dual-use (of utility to both user desktop machines and servers). This > is because with peer-to-peer applications, user desktop machines are > also servers. > > So the issue has become entangled. > > It would be useful for individual liberties for remote-attestation > features to be widely deployed on desktop class machines to build > peer-to-peer systems and anonymity and privacy enhancing systems. > > However the remote-attestation feature is also against the users > interests because it's wide-spread deployment is the main DRM enabling > feature and general tool for remote control descrimination against > user software and configuration choices. > > I don't see any way to have the benefits without the negatives, unless > anyone has any bright ideas. The remaining questions are: > > - do the negatives out-weigh the positives (lose ability to > reverse-engineer and virtualize applications, and trade > software-hacking based BORA for hardware-hacking based ROCA); > > - are there ways to make remote-attestation not useful for DRM, > eg. limited deployment, other; > > - would the user-positive aspects of remote-attestation still be > largely available with only limited-deployment -- eg could interesting > peer-to-peer and privacy systems be built with a mixture of > remote-attestation able and non-remote-attestation able nodes. A wild thought that occurs to me is that some mileage could be had by using remotely attested servers to verify _signatures_ of untrusted peer-to-peer stuff. So, you get most of the benefits of peer-to-peer and the servers only have to do cheap, low-bandwidth stuff. I admit I haven't worked out any details of this at all! Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ Available for contract work. "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From tcmay at got.net Wed Aug 14 22:00:29 2002 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 22:00:29 -0700 Subject: A faster way to factor prime numbers found? In-Reply-To: <000901c24315$c8c01180$af934ad1@garyjeff> Message-ID: On Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 03:07 PM, Gary Jeffers wrote: > A faster way to factor prime numbers found? > Faster even than the usual algorithm?: The factors of a prime number are 1 and the number itself. --Tim May "That the said Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." --Samuel Adams From ben at algroup.co.uk Wed Aug 14 15:58:44 2002 From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 23:58:44 +0100 Subject: Overcoming the potential downside of TCPA References: <01da01c24357$f8e3f560$6601a8c0@josephas> <3D5A4A38.20609@algroup.co.uk> <00de01c243df$d357a660$6601a8c0@josephas> Message-ID: <3D5AE0A4.3080700@algroup.co.uk> Joseph Ashwood wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ben Laurie" > >>Joseph Ashwood wrote: >> >>>There is nothing stopping a virtualized version being created. >> > >>What prevents this from being useful is the lack of an appropriate >>certificate for the private key in the TPM. > > > Actually that does nothing to stop it. Because of the construction of TCPA, > the private keys are registered _after_ the owner receives the computer, > this is the window of opportunity against that as well. The worst case for > cost of this is to purchase an additional motherboard (IIRC Fry's has them > as low as $50), giving the ability to present a purchase. The > virtual-private key is then created, and registered using the credentials > borrowed from the second motherboard. Since TCPA doesn't allow for direct > remote queries against the hardware, the virtual system will actually have > first shot at the incoming data. That's the worst case. The expected case; > you pay a small registration fee claiming that you "accidentally" wiped your > TCPA. The best case, you claim you "accidentally" wiped your TCPA, they > charge you nothing to remove the record of your old TCPA, and replace it > with your new (virtualized) TCPA. So at worst this will cost $50. Once > you've got a virtual setup, that virtual setup (with all its associated > purchased rights) can be replicated across an unlimited number of computers. > > The important part for this, is that TCPA has no key until it has an owner, > and the owner can wipe the TCPA at any time. From what I can tell this was > designed for resale of components, but is perfectly suitable as a point of > attack. If this is true, I'm really happy about it, and I agree it would allow virtualisation. I'm pretty sure it won't be for Palladium, but I don't know about TCPA - certainly it fits the bill for what TCPA is supposed to do. Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ Available for contract work. "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From nelson at crynwr.com Wed Aug 14 21:30:11 2002 From: nelson at crynwr.com (Russell Nelson) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 00:30:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: trade-offs of secure programming with Palladium (Re: Palladium: technical limits and implications) In-Reply-To: <20020812210759.A846822@exeter.ac.uk> References: <699bcf9a15f57cec8e85fb08c0c02652@aarg.net> <20020812193000.A844266@exeter.ac.uk> <5.1.0.14.2.20020812150745.03d70748@dierks.org> <20020812210759.A846822@exeter.ac.uk> Message-ID: <15707.10566.755811.29627@desk.crynwr.com> Adam Back writes: > So there are practical limits stemming from realities to do with code > complexity being inversely proportional to auditability and security, > but the extra ring -1, remote attestation, sealing and integrity > metrics really do offer some security advantages over the current > situation. You're wearing your programmer's hat when you say that. But the problem isn't programming, but is instead economic. Switch hats. The changes that you list above may or may not offer some security advantages. Who cares? What really matters is whether they increase the cost of copying. I say that the answer is no, for a very simple reason: breaking into your own computer is a "victimless" crime. In a crime there are at least two parties: the victim and the perpetrator. What makes the so-called victimless crime unique is that the victim is not present for the perpetration of the crime. In such a crime, all of the perpetrators have reason to keep silent about the comission of the crime. So it will be with people breaking into their own TCPA-protected computer and application. Nobody with evidence of the crime is interested in reporting the crime, nor in stopping further crimes. Yes, the TCPA hardware introduces difficulties. If there is way around them in software, then someone need only write it once. The whole TCPA house of cards relies on no card ever falling down. Once it falls down, people have unrestricted access to content. And that means that we go back to today's game, where the contents of CDs are open and available for modification. Someone could distribute a pile of "random" bits, which, when xored with the encrypted copy, becomes an unencrypted copy. -- -russ nelson http://russnelson.com | Crynwr sells support for free software | PGPok | businesses persuade 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315 268 1925 voice | governments coerce Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | +1 315 268 9201 FAX | --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From myers at maski.org Wed Aug 14 21:55:00 2002 From: myers at maski.org (Myers W. Carpenter) Date: 15 Aug 2002 00:55:00 -0400 Subject: status of various projects? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1029387300.13016.154.camel@numbers> On Wed, 2002-08-14 at 10:58, Miles Fidelman wrote: > It seems like a lot of interesting projects haven't been active for a > while - notably Free Haven and Eternity Usenet. Where is the most active > work, these days, on distributed publishing systems? Try Mnet (http://mnet.sf.net/). It's the continuation of the Mojo Nation code base. We are close to a "stable" release (0.5.1), but there are a lot of known bugs that we are leaving in the system (because we are rewriting the code that the bugs are found in). Our main goal for the next release is to make it easier for new coders to understand what's going on under the hood. That and replacing the single point of failure metatracker system with a distributed hash table. The old mojo token based system is no longer in use, but we hope to replace it with an OpenDBS based system, or a stamp based system. myers From adam at cypherspace.org Wed Aug 14 23:06:04 2002 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 07:06:04 +0100 Subject: TCPA not virtualizable during ownership change (Re: Overcoming the potential downside of TCPA) In-Reply-To: <00de01c243df$d357a660$6601a8c0@josephas>; from ashwood@msn.com on Wed, Aug 14, 2002 at 03:10:44PM -0700 References: <01da01c24357$f8e3f560$6601a8c0@josephas> <3D5A4A38.20609@algroup.co.uk> <00de01c243df$d357a660$6601a8c0@josephas> Message-ID: <20020815070604.A935125@exeter.ac.uk> Phew... the document is certainly tortuous, and has a large number of similarly and confusingly named credentials, certificates and keys, however from what I can tell this is what is going on: Summary: I think the endorsement key and it's hardware manufacturers certificate is generated at manufacture and is not allowed to be changed. Changing ownership only means (typically) deleting old identities and creating new ones. The longer version... - endorsement key generation and certification - There is one endorsement key per TPM which is created and certified during manufacture. The creation and certification process is 1) create endorsement key pair, 2) export public key endorsement key, 3) hardware manufacturer signs endorsement public key to create an endorsement certificate (to certify that that endorsement public key belongs to this TPM), 4) the certificate is stored in the TPM (for later use in communications with the privacy CA.) - ownership - Then there is the concept of ownership. The spec says the TPM MUST ship with no Owner installed. The owner when he wishes to claim ownership choose a authentication token which is sent into the TPM encrypted with the endorsement key. (They give the example of the authentication token being the hash of a password). Physical presence tests apply to claiming ownership (eg think BIOS POST with no networking enabled, or physical pin on motherboard like BIOS flash enable). The authentication token and ownership can be changed. The TPM can be reset back to a state with no current owner. BUT _at no point_ does the TPM endorsement private key leave the TPM. The TPM_CreateEndorsementKeyPair function is allowed to be called once (during manufacture) and is thereafter disabled. - identity keys - Then there is the concept of identity keys. The current owner can create and delete identities, which can be anonymous or pseudonymous. Presumably the owner would delete all identity keys before giving the TPM to a new owner. The identity public key is certified by the privacy CA. - privacy ca - The privacy CA accepts identity key certification requests which contain a) identity public key b) a proof of possession (PoP) of identity private key (signature on challenge), c) the hardware manufacturers endorsement certificate containing the TPM's endorsement public key. The privacy CA checks whether the endorsement certificate is signed by a hardware manufacturer it trusts. The privacy CA sends in response an identity certificate encrypted with the TPM's endorsement public key. The TPM decrypts the encrypted identity certifate with the endorsement private key. - remote attestation - The owner uses the identity keys in the remote attestation functions. Note that the identity private keys are also generated on the TPM, the private key also never leaves the TPM. The identity private key is certified by the privacy CA as having been requested by a certified endorsement key. The last two paragraphs imply something else interesting: the privacy CA can collude with anyone to create a virtualized environment. (This is because the TPM endorsement key is never directly used in remote attestation for privacy reasons.) All that is required to virtualize a TPM is an attestation from the privacy CA in creating an identity certificate. So there are in fact three avenues for FBI et al to go about obtaining covert access to the closed space formed by TCPA applications: (A) get one of the hardware manufacturers to sign an endorsement key generated outside a TPM (or get the endorsement CA's private key), or (B) get a widely used and accepted privacy CA to overlook it's policy of demanding a hardware manufacturer CA endorsed endorsement public key and sign an identity public key created outside of a TPM (or get the privacy CA's private key). (C) create their own privacy CA and persuade an internet server they wish to investigate the users of to accept it. Create themselves a virtualized client using their own privacy CA, look inside. I think to combat problem C) as a user of a service you'd want the remote attestation of software state to auditably include it's accepted privacy CA database to see if there are any strange "Privacy CAs" on there. I think you could set up and use your own privacy CA, but you can be sure the RIAA/MPAA will never trust your CA. A bit like self-signing SSL site keys. If you and your friends add your CA to their trusted root CA database it'll work. In this case however people have to trust your home-brew privacy CA not to issue identity certificates without having seen a valid hardware-endorsement key if they care about preventing virtualization for the privacy or security of some network application. Also, they seem to take explicit steps to prevent you getting multiple privacy CA certificates on the same identity key. (I'm not sure why.) It seems like a bad thing as it forces you to trust just one CA, it prevents web of trust which could reduce your chances of getting caught in attack scenarios B) and C) by demanding multiple certificates. This section from the spec on trusting the privacy CA is interesting also: section 8.3.1 p 195 | A TPM identity key may be used to certify non-migratable keys but is | not permitted to certify migratory keys. As such, it allows the TPM | to make the statement this key is held in a TCPA-shielded location, | and it will never be revealed. For this statement to have veracity, | the Challenger must trust the policies used by the Privacy CA that | issued the identity and the maintenance policy of the TPM | manufacturer. (not sure what the maintenance policy of the TPM is or what it has to do with trusting privacy CAs -- it is not otherwise discussed). also the text on p268 relates to trusting the privacy CA. Below is some text from the spec which tends to confirm the above. (Anonymous may have some comments as he seemed to have read the TCPA spec in more detail than I have.) Here is an indicative quote from the spec: informative comment: | section 5.11 TPM Ownership p 133 | | "The function to insert the owner must provide the following: | | Confidentiality. The shared secret (or authorization data) must remain | confidential to all eavesdroppers that intercept any of the | messages. The confidentiality comes from encrypting the shared secret | using the TPM PUBEK. The Owner trusts that only the TPM has the PRIVEK | that can decrypt the shared secret. normative text: | The TPM MUST ship with no Owner installed. The TPM MUST use the | ownership-control protocol. Anyway Occam's razor suggests that the intent is: 1. the TPM endorsement private key never leaves the TPM 2. the identity private keys never leave the TPM 3. the privacy CA will never issue identity private keys unless the request is made in relation to a manufacturer certified endorsement public key. Note: The endorsement key has key usage restrictions and is marked as encrypt only, so the assurance the privacy CA gets is not that it receives a identity certificate request signed by the endorsement private key, but rather that the issued certificate is encrypted with the endorsement public key and so could only be decrypted by the TPM which contains the corresponding private endorsement key. (I suppose the motivation might have been that then the privacy CA couldn't prove to third parties that your endorsement key and identity key are bound together.) Adam -- http://www.cypherspace.org/adam/ On Wed, Aug 14, 2002 at 03:10:44PM -0700, Joseph Ashwood wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ben Laurie" > > Joseph Ashwood wrote: > > > There is nothing stopping a virtualized version being created. > > > What prevents this from being useful is the lack of an appropriate > > certificate for the private key in the TPM. > > Actually that does nothing to stop it. Because of the construction of TCPA, > the private keys are registered _after_ the owner receives the computer, > this is the window of opportunity against that as well. The worst case for > cost of this is to purchase an additional motherboard (IIRC Fry's has them > as low as $50), giving the ability to present a purchase. The > virtual-private key is then created, and registered using the credentials > borrowed from the second motherboard. Since TCPA doesn't allow for direct > remote queries against the hardware, the virtual system will actually have > first shot at the incoming data. That's the worst case. The expected case; > you pay a small registration fee claiming that you "accidentally" wiped your > TCPA. The best case, you claim you "accidentally" wiped your TCPA, they > charge you nothing to remove the record of your old TCPA, and replace it > with your new (virtualized) TCPA. So at worst this will cost $50. Once > you've got a virtual setup, that virtual setup (with all its associated > purchased rights) can be replicated across an unlimited number of computers. > > The important part for this, is that TCPA has no key until it has an owner, > and the owner can wipe the TCPA at any time. From what I can tell this was > designed for resale of components, but is perfectly suitable as a point of > attack. > Joe > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > The Cryptography Mailing List > Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Thu Aug 15 07:31:29 2002 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 10:31:29 -0400 Subject: CT-RSA 2003 -- preliminary call for papers Message-ID: [From sci.crypt -pt] From mdpopescu at subdimension.com Thu Aug 15 01:07:26 2002 From: mdpopescu at subdimension.com (Marcel Popescu) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 11:07:26 +0300 Subject: Spam blocklists? References: Message-ID: <002001c24432$cafe9250$a36e9cd9@mark> From: "Sunder" > None of those things work. Most spammers don't give a shit if you don't > receive email. I can attest to this by the slew of spam going to > hostmaster, webmaster, and the like on many networks. What they're really > selling is "ten million addresses" and spam software. Even if 9 million > of those are bullshit, they couldn't care less. The more things with "@" > signs in'em the more money they make off clueless businesses. We talk about different things then :) I don't care that they make money off clueless businesses... I care that they don't send ME spam. If I can solve the second problem, the first one will take care of itself. Mark From ben at algroup.co.uk Thu Aug 15 03:31:34 2002 From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 11:31:34 +0100 Subject: Signing as one member of a set of keys References: Message-ID: <3D5B8306.3090002@algroup.co.uk> Anonymous User wrote: > This program can be used by anonymous contributors to release partial > information about their identity - they can show that they are someone > from a list of PGP key holders, without revealing which member of the > list they are. Maybe it can help in the recent controvery over the > identity of anonymous posters. It's a fairly low-level program that > should be wrapped in a nicer UI. I'll send a couple of perl scripts > later that make it easier to use. Hmm. So has anyone managed to get the signature to verify? Doesn't work for me! But perhaps things got mangled in the mail? Or I chose the wrong subset of the email to verify (I tried all the obvious ones)? Sending this stuff as attachments instead of inline would work better, of course. Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ Available for contract work. "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From remailer at aarg.net Thu Aug 15 11:55:15 2002 From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 11:55:15 -0700 Subject: TCPA hack delay appeal Message-ID: <7cbcca17f92cae958d9e61fcbe52ab17@aarg.net> It seems that there is (a rather brilliant) way to bypass TCPA (as spec-ed.) I learned about it from two separate sources, looks like two independent slightly different hacks based on the same protocol flaw. Undoubtedly, more people will figure this out. It seems wise to suppress the urge and craving for fame and NOT to publish the findings at this time. Let them build the thing into zillion chips first. If you must, post the encrypted time-stamped solution identifying you as the author but do not release the key before TCPA is in many, many PCs. From eresrch at eskimo.com Thu Aug 15 12:08:12 2002 From: eresrch at eskimo.com (Mike Rosing) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 12:08:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TCPA not virtualizable during ownership change (Re: Overcoming the potential downside of TCPA) In-Reply-To: <20020815070604.A935125@exeter.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Aug 2002, Adam Back wrote: > Summary: I think the endorsement key and it's hardware manufacturers > certificate is generated at manufacture and is not allowed to be > changed. Changing ownership only means (typically) deleting old > identities and creating new ones. Are there 2 certificates? One from the manufacturer and one from the privacy CA? > - endorsement key generation and certification - There is one > endorsement key per TPM which is created and certified during > manufacture. The creation and certification process is 1) create > endorsement key pair, 2) export public key endorsement key, 3) > hardware manufacturer signs endorsement public key to create an > endorsement certificate (to certify that that endorsement public key > belongs to this TPM), 4) the certificate is stored in the TPM (for > later use in communications with the privacy CA.) So finding the manufacturers signature key breaks the whole system right? Once you have that key you can create as many "fake" TPM's as you want. > TPM can be reset back to a state with no current owner. BUT _at no > point_ does the TPM endorsement private key leave the TPM. The > TPM_CreateEndorsementKeyPair function is allowed to be called once > (during manufacture) and is thereafter disabled. But it's easier to manufacture it by burning fuse links so it can't be read back - ala OTP. so the manufacturer could have a list of every private key (just because they aren't supposed to doesn't prevent it.) It still meets the spec - the key never leaves the chip. > - identity keys - Then there is the concept of identity keys. The > current owner can create and delete identities, which can be anonymous > or pseudonymous. Presumably the owner would delete all identity keys > before giving the TPM to a new owner. The identity public key is > certified by the privacy CA. > > - privacy ca - The privacy CA accepts identity key certification > requests which contain a) identity public key b) a proof of possession > (PoP) of identity private key (signature on challenge), c) the > hardware manufacturers endorsement certificate containing the TPM's > endorsement public key. The privacy CA checks whether the endorsement > certificate is signed by a hardware manufacturer it trusts. The > privacy CA sends in response an identity certificate encrypted with > the TPM's endorsement public key. The TPM decrypts the encrypted > identity certifate with the endorsement private key. How does the CA check the endorsement certificate? If it's by checking the signature, then finding the manufacturer's private key is very worthwhile - the entire TCPA for 100's of millions of computers gets compromised. If it's by matching with the manufacturer's list then anonymity is impossible. Thanks for the analysis Adam. It seems like there are a couple of obvious points to attack this system at. I would think it's easy to break for a large enough government. Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike From marc.joye at gemplus.com Thu Aug 15 05:20:39 2002 From: marc.joye at gemplus.com (Marc Joye) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 12:20:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: CT-RSA 2003 -- preliminary call for papers Message-ID: =================================================================== Preliminary Call for Papers -- CT-RSA 2003 Submission deadline: Oct. 1, 2002 Cryptographers' Track, RSA Conference 2003 (CT-RSA 2003) April 13-17, 2003, Moscone Center, San Francisco, USA http://reg2.lke.com/rs3/rsa2003/crypto.html (see also http://www.rsaconference.net/) =================================================================== Following the success of the two previous editions, the Cryptographers' Track of RSA Conference 2003 (CT-RSA 2003) will be run as an anonymously refereed conference with proceedings. The proceedings of CT-RSA 2001 and CT-RSA 2002 were published in Springer-Verlag's Lecture Notes in Computer Science series as LNCS 2020 and LNCS 2271, respectively. Original research papers pertaining to all aspects of cryptography as well as tutorials are solicited. Submissions may present theory, techniques, applications and practical experience on topics including, but not limited to: fast implementations, secure electronic commerce, network security and intrusion detection, formal security models, comparison and assessment, tamper resistance, certification and time-stamping, cryptographic data formats and standards, encryption and signature schemes, public key infrastructure, protocols, elliptic curve cryptography, cryptographic algorithm design and cryptanalysis, discrete logarithms and factorization techniques, lattice reduction, and provable security. IMPORTANT DATES: Submission deadline: Oct. 1, 2002 Acceptance notification: Nov. 1, 2002 Proceedings version: Nov. 17, 2002 INSTRUCTIONS FOR AUTHORS: The program committee invites research contributions and tutorials in the broad area of applications and theory of cryptography. Correspondence, including submissions, will take place entirely via e-mail. All submissions will be blind refereed. To make a submission, please send two separate e-mail messages to marc.joye at gemplus.com (the first message should contain the paper's title, the names and affiliations of the authors and should identify the contact author, including e-mail and postal addresses; the second message should contain the submission itself in PostScript or in PDF). The paper must be anonymous, with no author names, affiliations, acknowledgements, or obvious references. It should begin with a title, a short abstract, and a list of keywords. The paper should be at most 12 pages (excluding the bibliography and clearly marked appendices), and at most 18 pages in total, using at least 11-point font and reasonable margins. Submissions not meeting these guidelines risk rejection without consideration of their merits. PROCEEDINGS For an accepted paper to be included in the proceedings, the authors of the paper must guarantee that at least one of the co-authors will attend the conference and deliver the talk (registration fees will be waived for the co-author delivering the talk). PROGRAM COMMITTEE: Giuseppe Ateniese Chi-Sung Laih John Black Tatsuaki Okamoto Daniel Bleichenbacher David Pointcheval Rosario Gennaro Bart Preneel Stuart Haber Jean-Jacques Quisquater Helena Handschuh Tsuyoshi Takagi Markus Jakobsson Gene Tsudik Antoine Joux Serge Vaudenay Marc Joye (Chair) Sung-Ming Yen Kwangjo Kim Moti Yung Seungjoo Kim Yuliang Zheng From bill.stewart at pobox.com Thu Aug 15 12:57:46 2002 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 12:57:46 -0700 Subject: Kashmir / Terrorism Conference on Saturday, Aug 17 in Union City Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20020815125711.04aa21b8@idiom.com> ---------- Forwarded Message ----------- Dear Friend: You are invited to attend a very interesting Conference on coming Saturday in Union City. A great opportunity to hear great speakers and learn more about Kashmir. At the same time, you will meet and hear FBI and Local Police about their local efforts. The event is free. - Jeevan Zutshi Indo-American Kashmir Forum Presents A Conference on Global Terrorism and Kashmir in its international Context Organized by: Indo-American Community Federation (I A C F) Saturday, August 17 12:15- 4:30 P.M James Logan High School Cafeteria (Hwy 880, take Decoto exit toward East, Left on Alvarado Niles Blvd., Second Right on H Street, Cafeteria is on your Right after Pavillion) PROGRAM 12.15- 12:45 Registration 12:45 -1:00 Welcome and Outlining Theme of the Conference By Jeevan Zutshi, Director of the Conference Moderator: Dr. Subroto Kundu, Past President, AAPIO 1.00 - 2.00 PANEL I Congressman Pete Stark, Keynote Speaker "Terrorism in Jammu and Kashmir - Its International Context," Professor D.R.SarDesai, UCLA "Indian Army and Human Rights in the context of counter terrorism and counter insurgency," Prof. M. M. Zaki, Ex. Brigadier, Indian Army San Francisco State University, CA "Kashmir - A Multi-Ethnic State; Kashmiri Point of View," Jeevan Zutshi, Founding Member and National Director, Indo-American Kashmir Forum 2:00 - 3:30 PANEL II "Terrorism Policies of America, India and Pakistan", Prof. Sanjoy Banerjee, San Francisco State University "Terrorism and the Media", Lt. Col. K.K.Puri, Ph.D. from Delhi, India "Resolution of Kashmir imbroglio", Major General Moti Dar from Kashmir, India Question and Answer session moderated by Dr. Subhash Garg, I A C F 3:30 - 4:30 PANEL III Special Panel discussion on Terrorism and Local efforts: Randy Cook, F B I Supervisory Special Agent on International Terrorism; Craig Steckler, Police Chief, City of Fremont. ------- End of Forwarded Message ------- From bill.stewart at pobox.com Thu Aug 15 12:59:44 2002 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 12:59:44 -0700 Subject: Fw: Bay Area SDF SECURITY EVENTS ANNOUNCEMENT Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20020815125820.04aa6d80@idiom.com> We've missed the first Nightwatch\\\\\\\\ SF Bay InfraGard meeting :-) But there are other things here as well. ---------- Forwarded Message ----------- August SDF Security SIG Meeting... A DOUBLE HEADER Don't Miss This Month's SIG Meeting -You Will Get A Ton of Voluble Information On Two Important Security Topics Martin Roesch, the Co-Author of Snort, the industry's most widely deployed Intrusion Detection System (IDS) & Voice Authentication - Biometric Security With Just a Microphone Wednesday, August 21 2002 @ 6:30pm Details: http://www.sdforum.org/p/calEvent.asp?CID=858&mo=8&yr=2002 +++++++++++++ SF Bay InfraGard Chapter - Summer/Quarterly Meeting Thursday / August 15, 2002 / 9AM - Noon Networking & Registration starts at 8:15AM Location: Cooley Godward, LLC 3175 Hanover Street, Palo Alto, CA 94306 NO CHARGE, BUT RSVP TO FBI Special Agent Mary Kimura, mkimura at fbi.gov More Info: http://sfbay-infragard.org/ SDForum SIG Chairs Ira and Ames are members of Infragard and we plan to attend this event ++++++++++++++ Party with EFF a the DNA Lounge - Live Music and Celebrity Boxing! CAFE 2002 - a Benefit for EFF's Campaign for Audiovisual Free _Expression Thursday, August 22nd, 2002/ 9pm - afterhours The night features world-class DJs, live acts, and producers from all parts of the fast-growing electronic music community and a special treat: celebrity boxing with Wil Wheaton and Barney! Wil Wheaton, of Star Trek: The Next Generation and Stand By Me fame, will take on Barney in a celebrity boxing matchup for the history books. All proceeds from the event will directly benefit EFF's CAFE project, helping to preserve your freedom to express yourself in innovative ways. Wheaton will be speaking at the event, along with EFF Co-Founder John Perry Barlow, EFF Executive Director Shari Steele and Heather Gold, comedian and Subvert.com host. More Info: http://www.eff.org/cafe ++++++++ SDForum Security SIG is sponsored by Kaspersky Lab(http://kaspersky-cs.com), Sierra Ventures (http://www.sierraven.com), and our NEW SPONSOR - Privastaff (http://www.privastaff.com) SDForum Security SIG is hosted By Ames Cornish (http://www.montebellopartners.com) and Ira Victor (http://www.iravictor.net) ------- End of Forwarded Message ------- www.SallyRichards.com FutureNet (2002)  Inside Business Incubators & Corporate Ventures (2001)  Dot-com Success! Surviving the Fallout & Consolidation (2000)  Sand Dreams & Silicon Orchards (2000) Cofounder WiWoWo (Wild Women of Wonder): http://www.fortune.com/indexw.jhtml?channel=artcol.jhtml&doc_id=206092 Recent BBC interviews: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/science/siliconvalley.shtml "It is better to die standing, than to live on your knees" -Dolores Ibarruri, Spanish Revolutionary From ashwood at msn.com Thu Aug 15 13:06:26 2002 From: ashwood at msn.com (Joseph Ashwood) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 13:06:26 -0700 Subject: TCPA not virtualizable during ownership change (Re: Overcoming the potential downside of TCPA) References: <01da01c24357$f8e3f560$6601a8c0@josephas> <3D5A4A38.20609@algroup.co.uk> <00de01c243df$d357a660$6601a8c0@josephas> <20020815070604.A935125@exeter.ac.uk> Message-ID: <004e01c24497$eafb8da0$6601a8c0@josephas> This is going to be a very long, and very boring message. But it should highlight why we have differing opinions about so very many capabilities of the TCPA system. For the sake of attempting to avoid supplying too little information, I have simply searched for the term and will make comments on each location that it appears. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adam Back" > Phew... the document is certainly tortuous, and has a large number of > similarly and confusingly named credentials, certificates and keys, > however from what I can tell this is what is going on: I wholeheartedly agree. 332 pages to say 5 pages worth of real information is not helpful. > > Summary: I think the endorsement key and it's hardware manufacturers > certificate is generated at manufacture and is not allowed to be > changed. [Search criteria "endorsement"] While I haven't found any solid evidence either way, they seem to almost deliberately avoid that discussion on Page 22 I found a fatal errorcode TCPA_NO_ENDORSEMENT at TCPA_BASE+35 "The TPM does not a EK installed" attempting to interpret the bad grammar, I believe this should state "The TPM does not [have] an [Endorsement Key] installed" which seems to indicate that the platform may ship without one. On page 35 the endorsement key is listed as persistent data. Which at first would indicate that the endorsement key happens before shipping, but since there is also an RNG state variable stored persistently, my confidence in this is undermined. Adding to the complications, down near the end of the page, in the table it says "This is the TPM's endorsement key pair. See 9.2. The default value is manufacturer-specific" which indicates that it does ship with an endorsement key, but that the key can be changed by the owner. Page 38, the existance of the CBKPUsed flag hints that the endorsement key pair need not always be present. Unfortunately the spec goes on to say "NOTE: This flag has no default value as the key pair MUST be created by one or the other mechanism." Which certainly confuses things. Page 41 "TPM_CreateEndorsementKey may be called before TPM_Startup. This is necessary because TPM_Startup will fail unless an endorsement key exists" is of no help either way. As with all the others, it states that there may exist conditions where the EK may not exist, but does not give any hints whether this is before or after the TPM leaves the plant. On page 79, the EK is metioned twice. The first time if useless for our purpose. The second time states "This SHALL be the TPM endorsement credential" which indicates that an endorsement credential must exist. Other locations though seem to hint that a void endorsement credential may be possible. Starting on Page 84 is section 4.32.1, which seems to be as close to an authority on the EK as possible, but lacks a statement of whether the EK is shipped with or added later. It does however clearly indicate that the creation of the EK occurs before the Privacy CA is contacted, which was already agreed on. [somewhere around here I stopped addressing everyt occurance of the word "endorsement" because most of them are frivolous] Page 135, Section 5.11.1, clearly states "The new owner MUST encrypt the Owner authorization data and the SRK authorization data using the PUBEK." Which clearly indicates that the EK must exist before ownership can be taken. Other places have hinted that ownership may be taken and then the EK updated, which completely contradicts the one-timeness, or this statement. Page 135 "If no EK is present the TPM MUST return TCPA_NO_ENDORSEMENT" which indicates that one can at least attempt to take ownership before an EK is present, which would contradict the requirement that the EK come from the factory. Page 178, Section 7.3 I am only mentioning because it presents a rather interesting possibility. It hints that under some circumstances it may be acceptable for a manufacturer to copy the data from one TCPA to another. This portion begins with "The manufacturer takes the maintainance blob . . ." This may however only be to update an existing one to address flaws or meet new capabilities. Page 183, hints that even the manufacturer is not allowed to known EK public key, which complicates things no end, because the Privacy CA certainly cannot at that point be permitted to view it. This would indicate that even if the EK is shipped with the system, it can never leave the system. This would limit the ability of the EK to simply certifying the owner, if that is true then it confuses me even further. Page 213 section 8.10 clearly states that if the owner clears the TCPA, everthing is cleared "except the endorsement key pair." Which would indicate that this is truly a one-shot deal. Page 240, states "This is a dead TPM. It has failed it's startup smoke test. It should not leave the factory floor." This indicates that the EK must be created before the TPM leaves the factory. Section 9.2, page 261, states that TPM_CreateEndorsementKeyPair can only be called once, but does not state if this is done by the owner, or by the plant. Later on the page is a hint that it may be shipped with it. "The PRIVEK and PUBEK MAY be created by a process other than the use of TPM_CreateEndorsementKeyPair" and related statements, which indicate rather well that the endorsement key created before shipping. It also states that the credential could be stored after "an Owner has taken ownership of the platform," confusing the matter even more. Of course at the end of this section they change the mandatory return value for TPM_CreateEndorsementKeyPair (beginning TCPA_FAIL, end TCPA_DISABLED_CMD). Page 268, "The TPM creates an identity-binding signature (the value of a signature over the TCPA_IDENTITY_CONTENTS structure). Among other things, this proves possession of the new private key, which does the signing of the TCPA_IDENTITY_CONTENTS structure." Indicates that the endorsement key (they only possible plant binding factor) is never used outside the box. The TCPA_IDENTITY_CONTENTS structure contains only TCPA_VERSION, ordinal, label PrivCADigest, and identityPubKey. Note the absence of anything identifying the TPM and binding it to the manufacturing. On the next page they state that there is some method used of certifying that it came from a genuine TPM, but I can't immediately find such evidence. I suppose just to make life more interesting for everyone involved, they included the following "The form of the following certificates is out of scope for this version of the TPM specification: . TPM endorsement entity certificate" Section 9.5.1 page 283 states "If the data structure is stored on a platform after an Owner has taken ownership of that platform, it SHALL exist only in storage to which access is controlled and is available to authorized entities." Which indicates very strongly that the EK can be created after shipping. More interesting though is the TPM_ENDORSEMENT_CREDENTIAL itself, which includes only the information to gaurantee that the cert was grabbed from a valid instance of a TPM, but does not from what I can tell actually certify that the current request comes from a valid TPM. Although they do take the odd step of making certain that CRLs are not used, under CRL dictribution points "If present and marked critical, then reject" which of course means that CRLs will not be used for this. The other credentials have the same interesting quirks. Page 311, Section 10.8 gives an interesting view of the situation, which indicates that the EK may be produced later discussing power-on self-tests "If an endorsement key has not yet been generated the TPM action is manufacturer specific." In the Glossary I think is the clearest statement about the EK in the entire document, the problem is the sentence is too long, shortening it for the valid point "Endorsement Key [-] A term used ambiguously" is entirely accurate enough for our purposes. Result: I have no idea whatsoever about where/when the EK is created, there are a number of conflicting statements regarding it, and at least once where they even change the return value of a function. > Changing ownership only means (typically) deleting old > identities and creating new ones. Agreed. After almost two hours of picking through poorly written specification, I'm just going to state that I agree. > > The longer version... > > - endorsement key generation and certification - There is one > endorsement key per TPM Agreed. > which is created and certified during > manufacture. Probably correct, but I'm not sure. > The creation and certification process is 1) create > endorsement key pair, > 2) export public key endorsement key, Only to the owner, the manufacturer is not supposed to have a copy > 3) > hardware manufacturer signs endorsement public key to create an > endorsement certificate (to certify that that endorsement public key > belongs to this TPM), 4) the certificate is stored in the TPM (for > later use in communications with the privacy CA.) The privacy CA never recieves a copy of the PUBEK, the PUBEK is only to be seen by the owner. > > - ownership - Then there is the concept of ownership. The spec says > the TPM MUST ship with no Owner installed. The owner when he wishes > to claim ownership choose a authentication token which is sent into > the TPM encrypted with the endorsement key. (They give the example of > the authentication token being the hash of a password). Physical > presence tests apply to claiming ownership (eg think BIOS POST with no > networking enabled, or physical pin on motherboard like BIOS flash > enable). The authentication token and ownership can be changed. The > TPM can be reset back to a state with no current owner. BUT _at no > point_ does the TPM endorsement private key leave the TPM. The > TPM_CreateEndorsementKeyPair function is allowed to be called once > (during manufacture) and is thereafter disabled. I agree with everything except the "during manufacture" which while seemingly is the correct way to do it to meet the majority of the spec, isn't necessarily the only way. > > - identity keys - Then there is the concept of identity keys. The > current owner can create and delete identities, which can be anonymous > or pseudonymous. Presumably the owner would delete all identity keys > before giving the TPM to a new owner. The identity public key is > certified by the privacy CA. Agreed. > > - privacy ca - The privacy CA accepts identity key certification > requests which contain a) identity public key b) a proof of possession > (PoP) of identity private key (signature on challenge), c) the > hardware manufacturers endorsement certificate containing the TPM's > endorsement public key. I believe this is incorrect. The complete contents of the endorsement credentials can be found starting on page 283, and does not include the endorsement key in any way. Which is good because knowledge of the endorsement public key, would allow someone to claim ownership of the system. > The privacy CA checks whether the endorsement > certificate is signed by a hardware manufacturer it trusts. The > privacy CA sends in response an identity certificate encrypted with > the TPM's endorsement public key. The TPM decrypts the encrypted > identity certifate with the endorsement private key. It is not encrypted with the endorsement public key, it can't be since the Privacy CA does not receive a copy of it. I'm not sure whether or not it is encrypted at all, but at the very least it cannot be encrypted by the EK. > > - remote attestation - The owner uses the identity keys in the remote > attestation functions. Note that the identity private keys are also > generated on the TPM, the private key also never leaves the TPM. The > identity private key is certified by the privacy CA as having been > requested by a certified endorsement key. Agreed. > > > The last two paragraphs imply something else interesting: the privacy > CA can collude with anyone to create a virtualized environment. (This > is because the TPM endorsement key is never directly used in remote > attestation for privacy reasons.) All that is required to virtualize > a TPM is an attestation from the privacy CA in creating an identity > certificate. Certainly correct, but I don't believe the Privacy CA necessarily has to be in on it. > > So there are in fact three avenues for FBI et al to go about obtaining > covert access to the closed space formed by TCPA applications: > > (A) get one of the hardware manufacturers to sign an endorsement key > generated outside a TPM (or get the endorsement CA's private key), or > > (B) get a widely used and accepted privacy CA to overlook it's policy > of demanding a hardware manufacturer CA endorsed endorsement public > key and sign an identity public key created outside of a TPM (or get > the privacy CA's private key). This would probably be easier done with a court order forcing the Privacy CA to perform the operation under the guise of law enforcement. > > (C) create their own privacy CA and persuade an internet server they > wish to investigate the users of to accept it. Create themselves a > virtualized client using their own privacy CA, look inside. > > > I think to combat problem C) as a user of a service you'd want the > remote attestation of software state to auditably include it's > accepted privacy CA database to see if there are any strange "Privacy > CAs" on there. But it could be easily combined with a smaller, easier to get court order along the lines of B where a company is required to allow the FBI to work under the company's name to perform the necessary work. This eliminates the phony Privacy CA from existance. > I think you could set up and use your own privacy CA, but you can be > sure the RIAA/MPAA will never trust your CA. A bit like self-signing > SSL site keys. If you and your friends add your CA to their trusted > root CA database it'll work. In this case however people have to > trust your home-brew privacy CA not to issue identity certificates > without having seen a valid hardware-endorsement key if they care > about preventing virtualization for the privacy or security of some > network application. > > Also, they seem to take explicit steps to prevent you getting multiple > privacy CA certificates on the same identity key. (I'm not sure why.) > It seems like a bad thing as it forces you to trust just one CA, it > prevents web of trust which could reduce your chances of getting > caught in attack scenarios B) and C) by demanding multiple > certificates. I didn't notice that, but it does seem to be true, as with you I can see no reason for that decision. Perhaps it was a non-decision that made it into the spec? > section 8.3.1 p 195 > (not sure what the maintenance policy of the TPM is or what it has to > do with trusting privacy CAs -- it is not otherwise discussed). It is discussed surprisingly briefly for this spec, it occupies a mere 10 pages, beginning on page 178. The reliance on trust here stems from the manufacturer's ability to replicate TPMs (although the EK does not appear to be changable this way). Thinking about it more, I don't like that this spec assumes there is 1 primary user of a machine, and that this user is also the owner. A better design would use something akin to a smartcard, and a large chunk of non-volatile RAM. Making properly use of this would allow for authentication of families of people, simply plugging in your card, and entering your passphrase would allow users to authenticate to the system easily, allowing the home system to separate the identities of Mom, Dad, Son, Daughter, Aunt, Uncle. And could still bind people to a specific machine. I think everyone who reads the spec, or even our commentary on it can safely conclude that all the chips supporting this should have a "WTF" somewhere in their identifier. Now leaving the topic. Fortunately in my current state of (lack of) employment I have plenty of time to do this kind of examination, otherwise I wouldn't bother. With that said, if anyone knows of a company currently hiring software engineer/cryptanalyst/etc I'd appreciate any information. 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»áÒéÏÖ³¡¼°»á¿¯ÖУ¬ÐÑĿλÖÃÉèÖÃÆóÒµ¼°»áÒéÃû³ÆÓë±êʶ ¡ï ¡ï ¡ï ¡ï »ñµÃÓÉ×éί»á×éÖ¯µÄÏà¹ØÐû´« ¡ï ¡ï ¡ï ÏÖ³¡ÉèÖÃ3¡Á4ƽ·½Ã×ÉÌÎñǢ̸רÇø ¡ï ¡ï ¡ï ÍíÑçÏÖ³¡ÉèÖÃÆóÒµºá·ù ±¸×¢£º¡ïΪÔÞÖúÉÌÏíÓиÃÏîȨÒæ ÁªÏµµ¥Î»£º±±¾©Ò×ͨÆßάÎïÁ÷Ñо¿·¢Õ¹ÖÐÐÄ µØ Ö·£º±±¾©ÊÐÎ÷³ÇÇøÔÂ̳±±½Ö25ºÅÔº37ºÅÂ¥2-002ÊÒ ÓÊ ±à£º100834 Áª ϵ ÈË£ºÒ¦ÎÄÑâ µç »°£º86-10-68538855¡¢68538866¡¢68391461 ´« Õ棺86-10-68391461¡¢68538855 ÓÊ ¼þ£ºywychina at sohu.com ¸¶¿î·½Ê½ 1¡¢×ܹÚÃûÔÞÖú¡¢ÌرðЭ°ì¡¢Ò»°ãЭ°ìÔÞÖúÆóҵǩԼºóÊ®ÈÕÄÚ£¬ÔÞÖúÉ̽»¸¶ÔÞÖú ·ÑÓÃÖ®60%£»¾ÅÔÂÊ®ÈÕÇ°£¬ÔÞÖúÉ̽»¸¶ÔÞÖú·ÑÓÃÖ®30%£»»áÒé½áÊø£¬½»¸¶½á °¸±¨¸æºóÒ»ÖÜÄÚ£¬ÔÞÖúÉ̽»¸¶ÔÞÖú·ÑÓÃÖ®10%£» 2¡¢ÌرðÔÞÖúÆóҵǩԼºó10ÈÕÄÚ½»¸¶È«²¿ÔÞÖú½ð¶î£» 3¡¢×éί»áÕ˺ţº ¹«Ë¾Ãû³Æ£º±±¾©Ò×ͨÆßάÎïÁ÷Ñо¿·¢Õ¹ÖÐÐÄ ¿ª »§ ÐУºÕÐÉÌÒøÐб±¾©ÊзÖÐÐÕ¹ÀÀ·֧ÐÐ ÕË ºÅ£º0982533610001 ÔÞÖúµ¥Î»Ãû³Æ £º µ¥Î»Ãû³Æ£º±±¾©Ò×ͨÆßάÎïÁ÷Ñо¿·¢Õ¹ÖÐÐÄ ¸º Ôð ÈË £º ¸º Ôð ÈË£º ÈÕ ÆÚ£º Äê Ô ÈÕ ÈÕ ÆÚ£º Äê Ô ÈÕ From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Thu Aug 15 10:53:56 2002 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 13:53:56 -0400 Subject: trade-offs of secure programming with Palladium (Re: Palladiu m: technical limits and implications) Message-ID: > Russell Nelson[SMTP:nelson at crynwr.com] writes: > > You're wearing your programmer's hat when you say that. But the > problem isn't programming, but is instead economic. Switch hats. The > changes that you list above may or may not offer some security > advantages. Who cares? What really matters is whether they increase > the cost of copying. I say that the answer is no, for a very simple > reason: breaking into your own computer is a "victimless" crime. > > In a crime there are at least two parties: the victim and the > perpetrator. What makes the so-called victimless crime unique is that > the victim is not present for the perpetration of the crime. In such > a crime, all of the perpetrators have reason to keep silent about the > comission of the crime. So it will be with people breaking into their > own TCPA-protected computer and application. Nobody with evidence of > the crime is interested in reporting the crime, nor in stopping > further crimes. > [...] Russ: Take off your economic hat, and try on a law-enforcement one. With DMCA, etal, the tools to get around TCPA's taking of your right to use your property as you please have been criminalized. (Don't argue that TCPA will always be voluntary. I don't beleive that). I have little patience with arguments which say 'Yeah, they can make X against the law, but clever people like me can always get around it, and won't get caught, so I don't care.' Maybe you can, some of the time, but that's not the point. Most people won't, either because it's too hard, they don't know what they've lost, or because of a misplaced respect for the whims of The Men with Guns. This is not a Good Thing. A freedom to skulk in the shadows, hoping not to be noticed, is not the legacy I wish to leave behind. Peter Trei --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From eresrch at eskimo.com Thu Aug 15 14:52:00 2002 From: eresrch at eskimo.com (Mike Rosing) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 14:52:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TCPA not virtualizable during ownership change (Re: Overcoming the potential downside of TCPA) In-Reply-To: <004e01c24497$eafb8da0$6601a8c0@josephas> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Aug 2002, Joseph Ashwood wrote: > This is going to be a very long, and very boring message. But it should > highlight why we have differing opinions about so very many capabilities of > the TCPA system. For the sake of attempting to avoid supplying too little > information, I have simply searched for the term and will make comments on > each location that it appears. I actually read the whole thing. Thanks for the effort. I just want to focus in on one part for now. > Page 183, hints that even the manufacturer is not allowed to known EK public > key, which complicates things no end, because the Privacy CA certainly > cannot at that point be permitted to view it. This would indicate that even > if the EK is shipped with the system, it can never leave the system. This > would limit the ability of the EK to simply certifying the owner, if that is > true then it confuses me even further. Then how can the manufacturer sign the endorsement key? That can't make any sense - is a misprint maybe and they mean the private key? > Page 240, states "This is a dead TPM. It has failed it's startup smoke test. > It should not leave the factory floor." This indicates that the EK must be > created before the TPM leaves the factory. What's the context of the "smoke test"? > Section 9.2, page 261, states that TPM_CreateEndorsementKeyPair can only be > called once, but does not state if this is done by the owner, or by the > plant. Later on the page is a hint that it may be shipped with it. "The > PRIVEK and PUBEK MAY be created by a process other than the use of > TPM_CreateEndorsementKeyPair" and related statements, which indicate rather > well that the endorsement key created before shipping. It also states that > the credential could be stored after "an Owner has taken ownership of the > platform," confusing the matter even more. Of course at the end of this > section they change the mandatory return value for > TPM_CreateEndorsementKeyPair (beginning TCPA_FAIL, end TCPA_DISABLED_CMD). So the spec allows for a one time write option - the manufacturer MAY build a list of keys. But they don't have to. > Result: I have no idea whatsoever about where/when the EK is created, there > are a number of conflicting statements regarding it, and at least once where > they even change the return value of a function. Yeah, that makes discussion difficult. Obviously the spec is flawed!! > > The creation and certification process is 1) create > > endorsement key pair, > > > 2) export public key endorsement key, > > Only to the owner, the manufacturer is not supposed to have a copy Then anyone can create a TPM? What does the manufacturer know about the thing it created? If they know the endorsement key (since they put it in) they can compute the public key. If they don't know either key, then anyone can create TPM's and get them certified!! I guess I can't argue with that :-) > > 3) > > hardware manufacturer signs endorsement public key to create an > > endorsement certificate (to certify that that endorsement public key > > belongs to this TPM), 4) the certificate is stored in the TPM (for > > later use in communications with the privacy CA.) > > The privacy CA never recieves a copy of the PUBEK, the PUBEK is only to be > seen by the owner. If the manufacturer signs the endorsement pubkey, how can they not see it? I think there must be a lot of confusion in the spec about which key does what and where it is used. That's a different kind of flaw, but clearly the spec has a lot of problems. Keep hacking at it guys. Maybe the authors will re-write it so it makes sense (or give up and toss the whole thing in the trash). Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike From remailer at aarg.net Thu Aug 15 15:26:20 2002 From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG!Anonymous) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 15:26:20 -0700 Subject: TCPA not virtualizable during ownership change Message-ID: <1e00f837f981a7b306e92744e165af93@aarg.net> Basically I agree with Adam's analysis. At this point I think he understands the spec equally as well as I do. He has a good point about the Privacy CA key being another security weakness that could break the whole system. It would be good to consider how exactly that problem could be eliminated using more sophisticated crypto. Keep in mind that there is a need to be able to revoke Endorsement Certificates if it is somehow discovered that a TPM has been cracked or is bogus. I'm not sure that would be possible with straight Chaum blinding or Brands credentials. I would perhaps look at Group Signature schemes; there is one with efficient revocation being presented at Crypto 02. These involve a TTP but he can't forge credentials, just link identity keys to endorsement keys (in TCPA terms). Any system which allows for revocation must have such linkability, right? As for Joe Ashwood's analysis, I think he is getting confused between the endorsement key, endorsement certificate, and endorsement credentials. The first is the key pair created on the TPM. The terms PUBEK and PRIVEK are used to refer to the public and private parts of the endorsement key. The endorsement certificate is an X.509 certificate issued on the endorsement key by the manufacturer. The manufacturer is also called the TPM Entity or TPME. The endorsement credential is the same as the endorsement certificate, but considered as an abstract data structure rather than as a specific embodiment. The PRIVEK never leaves the chip. The PUBEK does, but it is considered sensitive because it is a de facto unique identifier for the system, like the Intel processor serial number which caused such controversy a few years ago. The endorsement certificate holds the PUBEK value (in the SubjectPublicKeyInfo field) and so is equally a de facto unique identifier, hence it is also not too widely shown. --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From jya at pipeline.com Thu Aug 15 15:33:46 2002 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 15:33:46 -0700 Subject: TCPA hack delay appeal In-Reply-To: <7cbcca17f92cae958d9e61fcbe52ab17@aarg.net> Message-ID: Well, it's probably safer to publish the hack anonymously and see if it withstands counter-hacking. Could be Microsoft is baiting and waiting for just such attacks. The giant might even leak and spread a few itself in order to shoot them down, to boost its eye-mote credibility. Send the hack to Cryptome anonymously if there's no better way to test its effectiveness. Keeping snakeoil secret is a sure way to uncontested success, aka the way of Redmond. From gabe at seul.org Thu Aug 15 14:10:24 2002 From: gabe at seul.org (Gabriel Rocha) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 17:10:24 -0400 Subject: status of various projects? In-Reply-To: ; from mfidelman@civicnet.org on Wed, Aug 14, 2002 at 10:58:45AM -0400 References: Message-ID: <20020815171024.B32753@seul.org> On Wed, Aug 14, at 10:58AM, Miles Fidelman wrote: | It seems like a lot of interesting projects haven't been active for a | while - notably Free Haven and Eternity Usenet. Where is the most active | work, these days, on distributed publishing systems? I forwarded this to Roger Dingledine who heads up the FreeHaven project. His answer is below. >From arma at seul.org Thu Aug 15 16:46:59 2002 Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 16:46:59 -0400 From: Roger Dingledine To: gabe at seul.org Subject: free haven status At this point, Free Haven has 3 major flaws, and I'm putting it on the back burner while I address them: * The reputation system is tricky and won't work. We need to replace the gossip/credibility system with a mechanism for verifiable transactions. See http://freehaven.net/doc/cfp02/cfp02.html for more details. * Retrieval is currently broadcast, which is insane. I'm letting other projects work on solutions here (eg Chord), and I'll pick my favorite when the time comes. * There is no anonymous communications infrastructure. This is the area we're focusing on currently. See http://mixminion.net/minion-design.pdf and http://pdos.lcs.mit.edu/tarzan/ --Roger From adam at cypherspace.org Thu Aug 15 09:56:25 2002 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 17:56:25 +0100 Subject: TCPA not virtualizable during ownership change (Re: Overcoming the potential downside of TCPA) Message-ID: <20020815175625.A961146@exeter.ac.uk> [resend via different node: cypherpunks at lne.com seems to be dead -- primary MX refusing connections] Phew... the document is certainly tortuous, and has a large number of similarly and confusingly named credentials, certificates and keys, however from what I can tell this is what is going on: Summary: I think the endorsement key and it's hardware manufacturers certificate is generated at manufacture and is not allowed to be changed. Changing ownership only means (typically) deleting old identities and creating new ones. The longer version... - endorsement key generation and certification - There is one endorsement key per TPM which is created and certified during manufacture. The creation and certification process is 1) create endorsement key pair, 2) export public key endorsement key, 3) hardware manufacturer signs endorsement public key to create an endorsement certificate (to certify that that endorsement public key belongs to this TPM), 4) the certificate is stored in the TPM (for later use in communications with the privacy CA.) - ownership - Then there is the concept of ownership. The spec says the TPM MUST ship with no Owner installed. The owner when he wishes to claim ownership choose a authentication token which is sent into the TPM encrypted with the endorsement key. (They give the example of the authentication token being the hash of a password). Physical presence tests apply to claiming ownership (eg think BIOS POST with no networking enabled, or physical pin on motherboard like BIOS flash enable). The authentication token and ownership can be changed. The TPM can be reset back to a state with no current owner. BUT _at no point_ does the TPM endorsement private key leave the TPM. The TPM_CreateEndorsementKeyPair function is allowed to be called once (during manufacture) and is thereafter disabled. - identity keys - Then there is the concept of identity keys. The current owner can create and delete identities, which can be anonymous or pseudonymous. Presumably the owner would delete all identity keys before giving the TPM to a new owner. The identity public key is certified by the privacy CA. - privacy ca - The privacy CA accepts identity key certification requests which contain a) identity public key b) a proof of possession (PoP) of identity private key (signature on challenge), c) the hardware manufacturers endorsement certificate containing the TPM's endorsement public key. The privacy CA checks whether the endorsement certificate is signed by a hardware manufacturer it trusts. The privacy CA sends in response an identity certificate encrypted with the TPM's endorsement public key. The TPM decrypts the encrypted identity certifate with the endorsement private key. - remote attestation - The owner uses the identity keys in the remote attestation functions. Note that the identity private keys are also generated on the TPM, the private key also never leaves the TPM. The identity private key is certified by the privacy CA as having been requested by a certified endorsement key. The last two paragraphs imply something else interesting: the privacy CA can collude with anyone to create a virtualized environment. (This is because the TPM endorsement key is never directly used in remote attestation for privacy reasons.) All that is required to virtualize a TPM is an attestation from the privacy CA in creating an identity certificate. So there are in fact three avenues for FBI et al to go about obtaining covert access to the closed space formed by TCPA applications: (A) get one of the hardware manufacturers to sign an endorsement key generated outside a TPM (or get the endorsement CA's private key), or (B) get a widely used and accepted privacy CA to overlook it's policy of demanding a hardware manufacturer CA endorsed endorsement public key and sign an identity public key created outside of a TPM (or get the privacy CA's private key). (C) create their own privacy CA and persuade an internet server they wish to investigate the users of to accept it. Create themselves a virtualized client using their own privacy CA, look inside. I think to combat problem C) as a user of a service you'd want the remote attestation of software state to auditably include it's accepted privacy CA database to see if there are any strange "Privacy CAs" on there. I think you could set up and use your own privacy CA, but you can be sure the RIAA/MPAA will never trust your CA. A bit like self-signing SSL site keys. If you and your friends add your CA to their trusted root CA database it'll work. In this case however people have to trust your home-brew privacy CA not to issue identity certificates without having seen a valid hardware-endorsement key if they care about preventing virtualization for the privacy or security of some network application. Also, they seem to take explicit steps to prevent you getting multiple privacy CA certificates on the same identity key. (I'm not sure why.) It seems like a bad thing as it forces you to trust just one CA, it prevents web of trust which could reduce your chances of getting caught in attack scenarios B) and C) by demanding multiple certificates. This section from the spec on trusting the privacy CA is interesting also: section 8.3.1 p 195 | A TPM identity key may be used to certify non-migratable keys but is | not permitted to certify migratory keys. As such, it allows the TPM | to make the statement this key is held in a TCPA-shielded location, | and it will never be revealed. For this statement to have veracity, | the Challenger must trust the policies used by the Privacy CA that | issued the identity and the maintenance policy of the TPM | manufacturer. (not sure what the maintenance policy of the TPM is or what it has to do with trusting privacy CAs -- it is not otherwise discussed). also the text on p268 relates to trusting the privacy CA. Below is some text from the spec which tends to confirm the above. (Anonymous may have some comments as he seemed to have read the TCPA spec in more detail than I have.) Here is an indicative quote from the spec: informative comment: | section 5.11 TPM Ownership p 133 | | "The function to insert the owner must provide the following: | | Confidentiality. The shared secret (or authorization data) must remain | confidential to all eavesdroppers that intercept any of the | messages. The confidentiality comes from encrypting the shared secret | using the TPM PUBEK. The Owner trusts that only the TPM has the PRIVEK | that can decrypt the shared secret. normative text: | The TPM MUST ship with no Owner installed. The TPM MUST use the | ownership-control protocol. Anyway Occam's razor suggests that the intent is: 1. the TPM endorsement private key never leaves the TPM 2. the identity private keys never leave the TPM 3. the privacy CA will never issue identity private keys unless the request is made in relation to a manufacturer certified endorsement public key. Note: The endorsement key has key usage restrictions and is marked as encrypt only, so the assurance the privacy CA gets is not that it receives a identity certificate request signed by the endorsement private key, but rather that the issued certificate is encrypted with the endorsement public key and so could only be decrypted by the TPM which contains the corresponding private endorsement key. (I suppose the motivation might have been that then the privacy CA couldn't prove to third parties that your endorsement key and identity key are bound together.) Adam -- http://www.cypherspace.org/adam/ On Wed, Aug 14, 2002 at 03:10:44PM -0700, Joseph Ashwood wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ben Laurie" > > Joseph Ashwood wrote: > > > There is nothing stopping a virtualized version being created. > > > What prevents this from being useful is the lack of an appropriate > > certificate for the private key in the TPM. > > Actually that does nothing to stop it. Because of the construction of TCPA, > the private keys are registered _after_ the owner receives the computer, > this is the window of opportunity against that as well. The worst case for > cost of this is to purchase an additional motherboard (IIRC Fry's has them > as low as $50), giving the ability to present a purchase. The > virtual-private key is then created, and registered using the credentials > borrowed from the second motherboard. Since TCPA doesn't allow for direct > remote queries against the hardware, the virtual system will actually have > first shot at the incoming data. That's the worst case. The expected case; > you pay a small registration fee claiming that you "accidentally" wiped your > TCPA. The best case, you claim you "accidentally" wiped your TCPA, they > charge you nothing to remove the record of your old TCPA, and replace it > with your new (virtualized) TCPA. So at worst this will cost $50. Once > you've got a virtual setup, that virtual setup (with all its associated > purchased rights) can be replicated across an unlimited number of computers. > > The important part for this, is that TCPA has no key until it has an owner, > and the owner can wipe the TCPA at any time. From what I can tell this was > designed for resale of components, but is perfectly suitable as a point of > attack. > Joe > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > The Cryptography Mailing List > Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From marketing at cd-uk.net Thu Aug 15 09:58:44 2002 From: marketing at cd-uk.net (Computer Developments UK) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 17:58:44 +0100 Subject: This Weeks Special Offers! Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 6897 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rah at shipwright.com Thu Aug 15 15:40:43 2002 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 18:40:43 -0400 Subject: Schneier on Palladium and the TCPA (was Re: CRYPTO-GRAM, August 15, 2002) In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20020815153857.01a64008@chaparraltree.com> References: <4.2.2.20020815153857.01a64008@chaparraltree.com> Message-ID: At 3:53 PM -0500 on 8/15/02, Bruce Schneier wrote: > Palladium and the TCPA > > > > There's been more written about Microsoft's Palladium security initiative > than about anything else in computer security in a very long time. My URL > list of comments, analysis, and opinions goes on for quite a while. Which > is interesting, because we really don't know anything about the details of > what it is or how it works. Much of this is based on reading between the > lines in the various news reports, conversations I've had with Microsoft > people (none of them under NDA), and conversations with people who've had > conversations. But since I don't know anything for sure, all of this could > be wrong. > > Palladium (like chemists, Microsoft calls it "Pd" for short) is Microsoft's > implementation of the TCPA spec, sort of. ("Sort of" depends on who you > ask. Some say it's related. Some say they do similar things, but are > unrelated. Some say that Pd is, in fact, Microsoft's attempt to preempt > the TCPA spec.) TCPA is the Trusted Computing Platform Alliance, an > organization with just under 200 corporate members (an impressive list, > actually) trying to build a trusted computer. The TCPA 1.1 spec has been > published, and you can obtain the 1.2 spec under NDA. Pd doesn't follow > the spec exactly, but it's along those lines, sort of. > > Pd has been in development for a long time, since at least 1997. The best > technical description is the summary of a meeting with Microsoft engineers > by Seth Schoen of the EFF (URL below). I'm not going to discuss the > details, because systems with an initial version of Pd aren't going to ship > until 2004 -- at least -- andthe details are all likely to change. > > Basically, Pd is Microsoft's attempt to build a trusted computer, much as I > discussed the concept in "Secrets and Lies" (pages 127-130); read it for > background). The idea is that different users on the system have > limitations on their abilities, and are walled off from each other. This > is impossible to achieve using only software; and Pd is a combination > hardware/software system. In fact, Pd affects the CPU, the chip set on the > motherboard, the input devices (keyboard, mouse, etc.), and the video > output devices (graphics processor, etc.). Additionally, a new chip is > required: a tamper-resistant secure processor. > > Microsoft readily acknowledges that Pd will not be secure against hardware > attacks. They spend some effort making the secure processor annoying to > pry secrets out of, but not a whole lot of effort. They assume that the > tamper-resistance will be defeated. It is their intention to design the > system so that hardware attacks do not result in class breaks: that > breaking one machine doesn't help you break any others. > > Pd provides protection against two broad classes of attacks. Automatic > software attacks (viruses, Trojans, network-mounted exploits) are contained > because an exploited flaw in one part of the system can't affect the rest > of the system. And local software-based attacks (e.g., using debuggers to > pry things open) are protected because of the separation between parts of > the system. > > There are security features that tie programs and data to CPU and to user, > and encrypt them for privacy. This is probably necessary to make Pd work, > but has a side-effect that I'm sure Microsoft is thrilled with. Like books > and furniture and clothing, the person who currently buys new software can > resell it when he's done with it. People have a right to do this -- it's > called the "First Sale Doctrine" in the United States -- but the software > industry has long claimed that software is not sold, but licensed, and > cannot be transferred. When someone sells a Pd-equipped computer, he is > likely to clear his keys so that his identity can't be used or files can't > be read. This will also serve to erase all the software he purchased. The > end result might be that people won't be able to resell software, even if > they wanted to. > > Pd is inexorably tied up with Digital Rights Management. Your computer > will have several partitions, each of which will be able to read and write > its own data. There's nothing in Pd that prevents someone else (MPAA, > Disney, Microsoft, your boss) from setting up a partition on your computer > and putting stuff there that you can't get at. Microsoft has repeatedly > said that they are not going to mandate DRM, or try to control DRM systems, > but clearly Pd was designed with DRM in mind. > > There seem to be good privacy controls, over and above what I would have > expected. And Microsoft has claimed that they will make the core code > public, so that it can be reviewed and evaluated. It's about time they > realized that lots of people are willing to do their security work for free. > > It's hard to sort out the antitrust implications of Pd. Lots of people > have written about it. Will Microsoft jigger Pd to prevent Linux from > running? They don't dare. Will it take standard Internet protocols and > replace them with Microsoft-proprietary protocols? I don't think so. Will > you need a Pd-enabled device -- the system is meant for both > general-purpose computers and specialized media devices -- in order to view > copyrighted content? More likely. Will Microsoft enforce its Pd patents > as strongly as it can? Almost certainly. > > Lots of information about Pd will emanate from Redmond over the next few > years, some of it true and some of it not. Things will change, and then > change again. The final system may not look anything like what we've seen > to date. This is normal, and to be expected, but when you continue to read > about Pd, be sure to keep several things in mind. > > 1. A "trusted" computer does not mean a computer that is trustworthy. The > DoD's definition of a trusted system is one that can break your security > policy; i.e., a system that you are forced to trust because you have no > choice. Pd will have trusted features; the jury is still out as to whether > or not they are trustworthy. > > 2. When you think about a secure computer, the first question you should > ask is: "Secure for whom?" Microsoft has said that Pd allows the > computer-owner to prevent others from putting their own secure areas on the > computer. But really, what is the likelihood of that really > happening? The NSA will be able to buy Pd-enabled computers and secure > them from all outside influence. I doubt that you or I could, and still > enjoy the richness of the Internet. Microsoft really doesn't care about > what you think; they care about what the RIAA and the MPAA > think. Microsoft can't afford to have the media companies not make their > content available on Microsoft platforms, and they will do what they can to > accommodate them. There's often a large gulf between what you can get in > theory -- which is what Microsoft is stressing in their Pd discussions -- > and what you will be able to have in practice. This is where the primary > danger lies. > > 3. Like everything else Microsoft produces, Pd will have security holes > large enough to drive a truck through. Lots of them. And the ones that > are in hardware will be much harder to fix. Be sure to separate the > Microsoft PR hype about the promise of Pd from the actual reality of Pd 1.0. > > 4. Pay attention to the antitrust angle. I guarantee you that Microsoft > believes Pd is a way to extend its market share, not to increase competition. > > There's a lot of good stuff in Pd, and a lot I like about it. There's also > a lot I don't like, and am scared of. My fear is that Pd will lead us down > a road where our computers are no longer our computers, but are instead > owned by a variety of factions and companies all looking for a piece of our > wallet. To the extent that Pd facilitates that reality, it's bad for > society. I don't mind companies selling, renting, or licensing things to > me, but the loss of the power, reach, and flexibility of the computer is > too great a price to pay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Seth Schoen's meeting summary: > > > Opinions: > > > > > > > > > Ross Anderson on TCPA and Palladium: > > > > TCPA Web site: > -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From nobody at remailer.privacy.at Thu Aug 15 10:06:06 2002 From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 19:06:06 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Overcoming the potential downside of TCPA Message-ID: [Repost] Joe Ashwood writes: > Actually that does nothing to stop it. Because of the construction of TCPA, > the private keys are registered _after_ the owner receives the computer, > this is the window of opportunity against that as well. Actually, this is not true for the endoresement key, PUBEK/PRIVEK, which is the "main" TPM key, the one which gets certified by the "TPM Entity". That key is generated only once on a TPM, before ownership, and must exist before anyone can take ownership. For reference, see section 9.2, "The first call to TPM_CreateEndorsementKeyPair generates the endorsement key pair. After a successful completion of TPM_CreateEndorsementKeyPair all subsequent calls return TCPA_FAIL." Also section 9.2.1 shows that no ownership proof is necessary for this step, which is because there is no owner at that time. Then look at section 5.11.1, on taking ownership: "user must encrypt the values using the PUBEK." So the PUBEK must exist before anyone can take ownership. > The worst case for > cost of this is to purchase an additional motherboard (IIRC Fry's has them > as low as $50), giving the ability to present a purchase. The > virtual-private key is then created, and registered using the credentials > borrowed from the second motherboard. Since TCPA doesn't allow for direct > remote queries against the hardware, the virtual system will actually have > first shot at the incoming data. That's the worst case. I don't quite follow what you are proposing here, but by the time you purchase a board with a TPM chip on it, it will have already generated its PUBEK and had it certified. So you should not be able to transfer a credential of this type from one board to another one. > The expected case; > you pay a small registration fee claiming that you "accidentally" wiped your > TCPA. The best case, you claim you "accidentally" wiped your TCPA, they > charge you nothing to remove the record of your old TCPA, and replace it > with your new (virtualized) TCPA. So at worst this will cost $50. Once > you've got a virtual setup, that virtual setup (with all its associated > purchased rights) can be replicated across an unlimited number of computers. > > The important part for this, is that TCPA has no key until it has an owner, > and the owner can wipe the TCPA at any time. From what I can tell this was > designed for resale of components, but is perfectly suitable as a point of > attack. Actually I don't see a function that will let the owner wipe the PUBEK. He can wipe the rest of the TPM but that field appears to be set once, retained forever. For example, section 8.10: "Clear is the process of returning the TPM to factory defaults." But a couple of paragraphs later: "All TPM volatile and non-volatile data is set to default value except the endorsement key pair." So I don't think your fraud will work. Users will not wipe their endorsement keys, accidentally or otherwise. If a chip is badly enough damaged that the PUBEK is lost, you will need a hardware replacement, as I read the spec. Keep in mind that I only started learning this stuff a few weeks ago, so I am not an expert, but this is how it looks to me. From jamesd at echeque.com Thu Aug 15 19:10:45 2002 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 19:10:45 -0700 Subject: TCPA not virtualizable during ownership change In-Reply-To: <1e00f837f981a7b306e92744e165af93@aarg.net> Message-ID: <3D5BFCB5.4018.E8C370@localhost> -- On 15 Aug 2002 at 15:26, AARG! Anonymous wrote: > Basically I agree with Adam's analysis. At this point I > think he understands the spec equally as well as I do. He > has a good point about the Privacy CA key being another > security weakness that could break the whole system. It > would be good to consider how exactly that problem could be > eliminated using more sophisticated crypto. Lucky claims to have pointed this out two years ago, proposed more sophisticated crypto, and received a hostile reception. Which leads me to suspect that the capability of the powerful to break the system is a designed in feature. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG JjoH8U8qZ1eOdT/yGjfV7Xz9andBZPeYWaOLC+NP 2/OJG2MZSnAqcyuvUsNZTsQAcffGGST6LJ7e9vFbK From rah at shipwright.com Thu Aug 15 16:11:54 2002 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 19:11:54 -0400 Subject: Schneier on Arming Airplane Pilots (was Re: CRYPTO-GRAM, August 15, 2002) In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20020815153857.01a64008@chaparraltree.com> References: <4.2.2.20020815153857.01a64008@chaparraltree.com> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 My sister-in-law had a brilliantly simple answer to the problem of hijacking which was, close, but, um, no spliff, :-), to Vin Suprynowicz's notorious "Ganja and Guns Airline" column of a few years back. She said, on September 12 or so last year, "Why don't you have a certification on your concealed-carry permit that allows you to carry on an airplane?" That means, like a hazmat certificate on a commercial driver's license, you've been trained. You know how to shoot on a plane: what kinds of frangible bullets to use, who to shoot at :-), and so on. At check-in time, the firearm owner pulls out her concealed-carry license with the cabin-carry certificate, shows someone the frangible ammo she's using, and is checked through to the gate. I figure if even Tim May thinks armed passengers are a bad idea, :-), and Bruce thinks even arming the *pilots* is a bad idea, I'm certainly leaning into the wind a bit here, but, I think it's a *great* idea, myself. It doesn't matter if someone smuggles a *machine gun* onto the plane, they don't know *who* is on the plane, with a gun, and *qualified* to take them out. Think of it as statistical process control for the rest of us. Or evolution in action. Or geodesic warfare. Cheers, RAH PS: I think we're going to *need* counter-attack scenarios on the net. Like Whit Diffie said, "infowar" will be fought between businesses. Governments are too slow, and not, paradoxically, nearly ubiquitous enough to do the job. All we need is bearer cash, :-), and, someday, machines even can handle it themselves... - --------- At 3:53 PM -0500 on 8/15/02, Bruce Schneier wrote: > Arming Airplane Pilots > > > > It's a quintessentially American solution: our nation's commercial > aircraft are at risk, so let's allow pilots to carry guns. We > have visions of these brave men and women as the last line of > defense on an aircraft, and courageously defending the cockpit > against terrorists at 30,000 feet. I can just imagine the > made-for-TV movie. > > Reality is more complicated than television, though. Sometimes, > security systems cause more problems than they solve. Putting > guns on aircraft will make us more vulnerable to attack, not less. > > When people think of potential problems with an weapons in a > cockpit, they think of accidental shootings in the air, holes in > the fuselage, and possibly even equipment shattered by a stray > bullet. This is a problem, certainly, but not a major one. A > bullet hole is small, and doesn't let a whole lot of air out. And > airplanes are designed to handle equipment failures -- even > serious failures -- and remain in the air. If I ran an airline, I > would worry more about accidents involving passengers, who are > much less able to survive a bullet wound and much more likely to > sue. > > The real dangers, though, involve the complex systems that must be > put in place before the first gun can ride along in the cockpit. > There are major areas of risk. > > One, we need a system for getting the gun on the airplane. How > does the pilot get the gun? Does he carry it through the airport > and onto the plane? Is it issued to him after he's in the cockpit > but before the plane takes off? Is it secured in the cockpit at > all times, even when there is no one there? Any one of these > solutions has its own set of security vulnerabilities. The last > thing we want is for an attacker to exploit one of these systems > in order to get himself a gun. Or maybe the last thing we want is > a shootout in a crowded airport. > > Second, we need a procedure for storing the gun on the airplane. > Does the pilot carry it on his hip? Is it locked in a cabinet? > If so, who has the key? Is there one gun, or do the pilot and > co-pilot each have > one? However the system works, it's ripe for abuse. If the gun is > always at the pilot's hip, an attacker can take it away from him > when he leaves the cockpit. (Don't laugh; policemen get their > guns taken away from them all the time, and they're trained to > prevent that.) If the guns remain in the cockpit when it is > unoccupied, we have a whole new set of problems to worry about. > > Third, we need a system of training pilots in gun handling and > marksmanship. Guns require training to use well; how much training > can we expect our pilots to have? This is different from training > sky > marshals. Security is the primary job of a sky marshal; they're > expected to learn how to use a gun. Flying planes is the primary > job of a pilot. > > Giving pilots guns is a disaster waiting to happen. The current > system spends a lot of time and effort keeping weapons off > airplanes and out of airports; the proposed scheme would inject > thousands of handguns into that system. There are just too many > pilots and too many flights every day; mistakes will happen. > Someone will do an inventory one night and find a gun missing, or > ten. Someone will find one left in a cockpit. Someone may even > find one on a seat in a terminal. > > El Al is the most security-conscious airline in the world. Their > pilots remain behind two bulletproof doors, and they're unarmed. > It's the job of the pilot to land the plane safely, not to engage > terrorists in close combat. For that, they rely on sky marshals, > crew, and passengers. If pilots have to leave the cockpit to > solve a security problem, it's too late. > > United States airlines are not comparable to El Al. Our flights > don't travel with two armed sky marshals each. We don't perform > security checks on passengers that, while legal in Israel, would > violate U.S. laws. We don't have two bulletproof doors separating > the cockpit from the > passengers. Many politicians see guns as a quick fix to a problem > that can't wait for a careful solution. > > Personally, I don't think pilots should be armed. But even if I > thought they did, I still wouldn't give them guns. Guns aren't > designed to be used in the cramped spaces you find in airplane > cockpits. They have too high a risk of doing unwanted damage if > they miss. And there's too much risk involved in putting > thousands of guns in airports, storing them, getting them on and > off airplanes, and keeping them in cockpits. If you want to arm > pilots, it would be much smarter to give them billy clubs or > tasers. At least those weapons make sense for the situation. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 7.5 iQA/AwUBPVw0u8PxH8jf3ohaEQJFLQCgiM0pbjq7eDI1OGpHSB4lBM7ECNEAn1fu weQEqAtqJjkAJLHuyki8WNty =xr6B -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From bjwudkg at t-online.de Thu Aug 15 16:18:40 2002 From: bjwudkg at t-online.de (Senada Gemici) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 19:18:40 -0400 Subject: 2seks Message-ID: Hic bir yerde bulup izleyemeyeceginiz icerigi size http://www.2seks.com sunuyor. TURK VE AVRUPALI AMATOR KIZLAR BULGAR KIZLARI ROMEN HATUNLAR TURK TECAVUZ FILMLERI KIZLAR YURDU ALMANYA'NIN SAPIK HATUNLARI OTELDEKI GIZLI KAMERALAR VE DAHASI... Hepsi orjinal ve kaliteli kayitlar. Hemen giris yapin ve tadini cikartin http://www.2seks.com From lynn.wheeler at firstdata.com Thu Aug 15 19:49:01 2002 From: lynn.wheeler at firstdata.com (lynn.wheeler at firstdata.com) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 20:49:01 -0600 Subject: TCPA not virtualizable during ownership change (Re: Overcoming the potential downside of TCPA) Message-ID: I arrived at that decision over four years ago ... TCPA possibly didn't decide on it until two years ago. In the assurance session in the TCPA track at spring 2001 intel developer's conference I claimed my chip was much more KISS, more secure, and could reasonably meet the TCPA requirements at the time w/o additional modifications. One of the TCPA guys in the audience grossed that I didn't have to contend with the committees of hundreds helping me with my design. There are actually significant similarities between my chip and the TPM chips. I'm doing key gen at very first, initial power-on/test of wafer off the line (somewhere in dim past it was drilled into me that everytime something has to be handled it increases the cost). Also, because of extreme effort at KISS, the standard PP evaluation stuff gets much simpler and easier because most (possibly 90 percent) of the stuff is N/A or doesn't exist early ref: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm2.htm#staw or refs at (under subject aads chip strawman): http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/index.html#aads brand & other misc. stuff: http://www.asuretee.com/ random evauation refs: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm12.htm#13 anybody seen (EAL5) semi-formal specification for FIPS186-2/x9.62 ecdsa? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002j.html#86 formal fips186-2/x9.62 definition for eal 5/6 evaluation adam at cypherspace.org on 8/15/2002 6:44 pm wrote: I think a number of the apparent conflicts go away if you carefully track endorsement key pair vs endorsement certificate (signature on endorsement key by hw manufacturer). For example where it is said that the endorsement _certificate_ could be inserted after ownership has been established (not the endorsement key), so that apparent conflict goes away. (I originally thought this particular one was a conflict also, until I noticed that.) I see anonymous found the same thing. But anyway this extract from the CC PP makes clear the intention and an ST based on this PP is what a given TPM will be evaluated based on: http://niap.nist.gov/cc-scheme/PPentries/CCEVS-020016-PP-TPM1_9_4.pdf p 20: | The TSF shall restrict the ability to initialize or modify the TSF | data: Endorsement Key Pair [...] to the TPM manufacturer or designee. (if only they could have managed to say that in the spec). Adam -- http://www.cypherspace.org/adam/ From jays at panix.com Thu Aug 15 17:55:58 2002 From: jays at panix.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 20:55:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Overcoming the potential downside of TCPA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Aug 2002, Anonymous wrote: > [Repost] > > Joe Ashwood writes: > > > Actually that does nothing to stop it. Because of the construction of TCPA, > > the private keys are registered _after_ the owner receives the computer, > > this is the window of opportunity against that as well. > > Actually, this is not true for the endoresement key, PUBEK/PRIVEK, which > is the "main" TPM key, the one which gets certified by the "TPM Entity". > That key is generated only once on a TPM, before ownership, and must > exist before anyone can take ownership. For reference, see section 9.2, > "The first call to TPM_CreateEndorsementKeyPair generates the endorsement > key pair. After a successful completion of TPM_CreateEndorsementKeyPair > all subsequent calls return TCPA_FAIL." Also section 9.2.1 shows that > no ownership proof is necessary for this step, which is because there is > no owner at that time. Then look at section 5.11.1, on taking ownership: > "user must encrypt the values using the PUBEK." So the PUBEK must exist > before anyone can take ownership. > > > The worst case for > > cost of this is to purchase an additional motherboard (IIRC Fry's has them > > as low as $50), giving the ability to present a purchase. The > > virtual-private key is then created, and registered using the credentials > > borrowed from the second motherboard. Since TCPA doesn't allow for direct > > remote queries against the hardware, the virtual system will actually have > > first shot at the incoming data. That's the worst case. > > I don't quite follow what you are proposing here, but by the time you > purchase a board with a TPM chip on it, it will have already generated > its PUBEK and had it certified. So you should not be able to transfer > a credential of this type from one board to another one. < ... /> But I think you claimed "No root key.". Is this not a "root key"? oo--JS. From shamrock at cypherpunks.to Thu Aug 15 21:40:59 2002 From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 21:40:59 -0700 Subject: TCPA hack delay appeal In-Reply-To: <7cbcca17f92cae958d9e61fcbe52ab17@aarg.net> Message-ID: <000001c244df$2df4aa00$6801a8c0@xpserver> AARG! Wrote: > > It seems that there is (a rather brilliant) way to bypass > TCPA (as spec-ed.) I learned about it from two separate > sources, looks like two independent slightly different hacks > based on the same protocol flaw. > > Undoubtedly, more people will figure this out. Hopefully some of those people will not limit themselves to hypothetical attacks against The Spec, but will actually test those supposed attacks on shipping TPMs. Which are readily available in high-end IBM laptops. --Lucky Green From adam at cypherspace.org Thu Aug 15 17:44:58 2002 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 01:44:58 +0100 Subject: TCPA not virtualizable during ownership change (Re: Overcoming the potential downside of TCPA) In-Reply-To: <004e01c24497$eafb8da0$6601a8c0@josephas>; from ashwood@msn.com on Thu, Aug 15, 2002 at 01:06:26PM -0700 References: <01da01c24357$f8e3f560$6601a8c0@josephas> <3D5A4A38.20609@algroup.co.uk> <00de01c243df$d357a660$6601a8c0@josephas> <20020815070604.A935125@exeter.ac.uk> <004e01c24497$eafb8da0$6601a8c0@josephas> Message-ID: <20020816014458.A969744@exeter.ac.uk> I think a number of the apparent conflicts go away if you carefully track endorsement key pair vs endorsement certificate (signature on endorsement key by hw manufacturer). For example where it is said that the endorsement _certificate_ could be inserted after ownership has been established (not the endorsement key), so that apparent conflict goes away. (I originally thought this particular one was a conflict also, until I noticed that.) I see anonymous found the same thing. But anyway this extract from the CC PP makes clear the intention and an ST based on this PP is what a given TPM will be evaluated based on: http://niap.nist.gov/cc-scheme/PPentries/CCEVS-020016-PP-TPM1_9_4.pdf p 20: | The TSF shall restrict the ability to initialize or modify the TSF | data: Endorsement Key Pair [...] to the TPM manufacturer or designee. (if only they could have managed to say that in the spec). Adam -- http://www.cypherspace.org/adam/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From adam at cypherspace.org Thu Aug 15 18:23:05 2002 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 02:23:05 +0100 Subject: employment market for applied cryptographers? Message-ID: <20020816022305.A970009@exeter.ac.uk> On the employment situation... it seems that a lot of applied cryptographers are currently unemployed (Tim Dierks, Joseph, a few ex-colleagues, and friends who asked if I had any leads, the spate of recent "security consultant" .sigs, plus I heard that a straw poll of attenders at the codecon conference earlier this year showed close to 50% out of work). Are there any more definitive security industry stats? Are applied crypto people suffering higher rates of unemployment than general application programmers? (From my statistically too small sample of acquaintances it might appear so.) If this is so, why is it? - you might think the physical security push following the world political instability worries following Sep 11th would be accompanied by a corresponding information security push -- jittery companies improving their disaster recovery and to a lesser extent info sec plans. - governments are still harping on the info-war hype, national information infrastructure protection, and the US Information Security Czar Clarke making grandiose pronouncements about how industry ought to do various things (that the USG spent the last 10 years doing it's best to frustrate industry from doing with it's dumb export laws) - even Microsoft has decided to make a play of cleaning up it's security act (you'd wonder if this was in fact a cover for Palladium which I think is likely a big play for them in terms of future control points and (anti-)competitive strategy -- as well as obviously a play for the home entertainment system space with DRM) However these reasons are perhaps more than cancelled by: - dot-com bubble (though I saw some news reports earlier that though there is lots of churn in programmers in general, that long term unemployment rates were not that elevated in general) - perhaps security infrastructure and software upgrades are the first things to be canned when cash runs short? - software security related contract employees laid off ahead of full-timers? Certainly contracting seems to be flat in general, and especially in crypto software contracts look few and far between. At least in the UK some security people are employed in that way (not familiar with north america). - PKI seems to have fizzled compared to earlier exaggerated expectations, presumably lots of applied crypto jobs went at PKI companies downsizing. (If you ask me over use of ASN.1 and adoption of broken over complex and ill-defined ITU standards X.500, X.509 delayed deployment schedules by order of magnitude over what was strictly necessary and contributed to interoperability problems and I think significantly to the flop of PKI -- if it's that hard because of the broken tech, people will just do something else.) - custom crypto and security related software development is perhaps weighted towards dot-coms that just crashed. - big one probably: lack of measurability of security -- developers with no to limited crypto know-how are probably doing (and bodging) most of the crypto development that gets done in general, certainly contributing to the crappy state of crypto in software. So probably failure to realise this issue or perhaps just not caring, or lack of financial incentives to care on the part of software developers. Microsoft is really good at this one. The number of times they re-used RC4 keys in different protocols is amazing! Other explanations? Statistics? Sample-of-one stories? Adam -- yes, still employed in sofware security industry; and in addition have been doing crypto consulting since 97 (http://www.cypherspace.net/) if you have any interesting applied crypto projects; reference commissions paid. From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Fri Aug 16 01:21:22 2002 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 04:21:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: employment market for applied cryptographers? In-Reply-To: <20020816022305.A970009@exeter.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Aug 2002, Adam Back wrote: > failure to realise this issue or perhaps just not caring, or lack of > financial incentives to care on the part of software developers. > Microsoft is really good at this one. The number of times they > re-used RC4 keys in different protocols is amazing! Don't forget schedule pressure, the overhead of bringing in a contractor to do crypto protocol design, and the not-invented-here syndrome. I think all of these contribute to keeping protocol design in-house, regardless of the technical skill of the parties involved. It takes a serious investment in time to qualify a consultant. If having the protocol right isn't a top priority, that investment won't be made...and I'd guess that designing a new protocol isn't common enough to merit a separate job/new hire in most organizations. -David From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Fri Aug 16 01:24:35 2002 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 04:24:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Bay area cypherpunks Message-ID: Hi, I am currently in the SF Bay Area and wondering whether any cypherpunks are around and might want to say hi. Right now I'm in Berkeley, but I'm willing to travel (public transportation) to see people. thanks, -David Molnar From twister at stop1984.com Thu Aug 15 19:31:15 2002 From: twister at stop1984.com (Bettina Jodda (Twister)) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 04:31:15 +0200 Subject: trade-offs of secure programming with Palladium (Re: Palladiu m: technical limits and implications) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200208160431.19442.twister@stop1984.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 15 August 2002 19:53, Trei, Peter wrote: > Take off your economic hat, and try on a law-enforcement one. > > With DMCA, etal, the tools to get around TCPA's taking of your > right to use your property as you please have been criminalized. > (Don't argue that TCPA will always be voluntary. I don't beleive > that). > > I have little patience with arguments which say 'Yeah, they can > make X against the law, but clever people like me can always > get around it, and won't get caught, so I don't care.' Thankx, Peter. I thought a lot of this in the last weeks and this is exactly what worries me. Most people who are able to encryp mails for example say "I do not care about people spying, I know how to encrypt" People who know how to circumvent copy-protection-devices say: "Ah, I am clever enough...I know what to do so why worry?" But I think - are we not forgetting something? Or better: someone? And is that someone not "all the people who do "suffer" under the laws the people "who know what to do" simply accept? Three examples: a) Data Retention: people see the problem but say "I know how to use an anonymous proxy so why worry?" b) Copyright-Protection: people who know how to act with Linux etc say "So what --- I am a coder or programmer, I know what to do to get around it" c) Freedom of Information: for example IP-blocking, censorship.... People say "yeah, bad, but I know how use an alternative DNS etc..." So all in all the technically clever people see what is happening but rather answer with an "I know how to hide" than with an "I will use my technical skills to help other people" or with an "Even though I know how to hide this is not right --- I will have to do something" > Maybe you can, some of the time, but that's not the point. Most > people won't, either because it's too hard, they don't know what > they've lost, or because of a misplaced respect for the whims of > The Men with Guns. This is not a Good Thing. > A freedom to skulk in the shadows, hoping not to be noticed, is not > the legacy I wish to leave behind. Again thanks. In the last mailinglist someone said that most people do not see the point if it comes to privacy (which has to do with copyright devices etc, with registrating, with open source and with the right to chose...) Why not got from the abstract path of "copyright-protection devices" to a less abstract path? Let us take an unfair law --- for example one which is restricting our privacy in a non-technical way. If someone would introduce a law that says "giving birth to a child withour our admission is forbidden and you have to use a condom or anything else to make sure that your girlfriend...is not getting pregnant" Would you rather say "I know how to use a pin to make a hole in a condom" or say "this is absolute ridiculous etc --- we have to fight against this"? In a technical life, more and more people seem to be the opinion that if they are able to hide (use encryption, have technical knowledge...) this is enough and they do not care about the rest of the people being in the spotlight of the all-seeing-eye. I think if we want to change anything and not only improve our technical skills we have to a) help other people to understand the meaning of something like copyright-protection devices and laws like the DMCA (not in 30 pages, not with technical explainations but with explainations "for the masses " :-) b) go against these laws even though we might be able to "be an outlaw" Just in a simple term: We help people being physically tortured, we do take part in initiatives against torture etc ---> we act None of us would say "well, I know how to avoid tortute so why worry?" Sorry if this was philosophical but if there is something which worries me than it is people seeing the problems in data retention, copyright-protection devices etc. but answering "Well, people should use Linux, use an anonymous proxy...harharhar" To take the example above "I see the problem in torturing but people should use a gun harharhar..." Unfairness can not be defeated by saying "I know your unfairness but I can escape so why should I worry"... Kindest regards (I know I am a hopeless human-rights-talker....) Twister -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE9XGP2bWUifFmZwyIRAgGTAJ9cMsCF5LATcYC7sN01AuozuOs71ACbBdd5 wuJn4F3wWwYN4lHiQwonnPc= =bkyg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From eresrch at eskimo.com Fri Aug 16 06:38:56 2002 From: eresrch at eskimo.com (Mike Rosing) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 06:38:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TCPA hack delay appeal In-Reply-To: <000001c244df$2df4aa00$6801a8c0@xpserver> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Aug 2002, Lucky Green wrote: > Hopefully some of those people will not limit themselves to hypothetical > attacks against The Spec, but will actually test those supposed attacks > on shipping TPMs. Which are readily available in high-end IBM laptops. But doesn't the owner of the box create the master key for it? They imply that in their advertising, but I've not seen anything else about it. It was advertised to be protection for corporate data, not a DRM/control type thing. It would be very interesting to know the details on that. I found this: http://www.pc.ibm.com/ww/resources/security/securitychip.html but the link to "IBM Embedded Security Subsystem" goes to "page not found". but this one: http://www.pc.ibm.com/ww/resources/security/secdownload.html says in part: "IBM Client Security Software is available via download from the Internet to support IBM NetVista and ThinkPad models equipped with the Embedded Security Subsystem and the new TCPA-compliant Embedded Security Subsystem 2.0. By downloading the software after the systems have been shipped, the customer can be assured that no unauthorized parties have knowledge of the keys and pass phrases designated by the customer." So it looks like IBM is ahead of Microsoft on this one. but if TCPA isn't fully formalized, what does "TCPA-compliant" mean? In any case, they imply here that the customer needs to contact IBM to turn the thing on, so it does seem that IBM has some kind of master key for the portable. I wonder if they mean IBM is authorized to know the customer's keys? Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike From kh at al-qaeda.com Fri Aug 16 08:51:05 2002 From: kh at al-qaeda.com (Khoder bin Hakkin) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 08:51:05 -0700 Subject: ECrimes document clueless on 802.11b Message-ID: <3D5D1F69.10477A2E@al-qaeda.com> Stand-Alone and Laptop Computer Evidence d. Check for outside connectivity (e.g., telephone modem, cable, ISDN, DSL). If a telephone connection is present, attempt to identify the telephone number. http://www.ncjrs.org/pdffiles1/nij/187736.pdf -- "Better bombing through chemistry." -John Pike, director of Globalsecurity.org on use of speed by US pilots From rkm2 at universal-inkjet.com Fri Aug 16 08:51:51 2002 From: rkm2 at universal-inkjet.com (rkm2 at universal-inkjet.com) Date: Fri,16 Aug 2002 08:51:51 -0700 Subject: Own printer or copier? Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 5763 bytes Desc: not available URL: From adam at homeport.org Fri Aug 16 08:59:16 2002 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:59:16 -0400 Subject: employment market for applied cryptographers? In-Reply-To: <20020816022305.A970009@exeter.ac.uk>; from adam@cypherspace.org on Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 02:23:05AM +0100 References: <20020816022305.A970009@exeter.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20020816115916.A8860@lightship.internal.homeport.org> Hey, this is off-topic for DRM-punks! ;) more seriously: I think the fundamental issue is that crypto doesn't really solve many business problems, and it may solve fewer security problems. See Bellovin's work on how many vulnerabilities would be blocked by strong crypto. The buying public can't distinguish between well implemented and poorly implemented crypto; the snake oil faq has helped a lot, but now you need to distinguiish between well and poorly coded AES. Is there a business case for doing so, or should you just ship crap? AdamS On Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 02:23:05AM +0100, Adam Back wrote: | On the employment situation... it seems that a lot of applied | cryptographers are currently unemployed (Tim Dierks, Joseph, a few | ex-colleagues, and friends who asked if I had any leads, the spate of | recent "security consultant" .sigs, plus I heard that a straw poll of | attenders at the codecon conference earlier this year showed close to | 50% out of work). | | Are there any more definitive security industry stats? Are applied | crypto people suffering higher rates of unemployment than general | application programmers? (From my statistically too small sample of | acquaintances it might appear so.) | | If this is so, why is it? | | - you might think the physical security push following the world | political instability worries following Sep 11th would be accompanied | by a corresponding information security push -- jittery companies | improving their disaster recovery and to a lesser extent info sec | plans. | | - governments are still harping on the info-war hype, national | information infrastructure protection, and the US Information Security | Czar Clarke making grandiose pronouncements about how industry ought | to do various things (that the USG spent the last 10 years doing it's | best to frustrate industry from doing with it's dumb export laws) | | - even Microsoft has decided to make a play of cleaning up it's | security act (you'd wonder if this was in fact a cover for Palladium | which I think is likely a big play for them in terms of future control | points and (anti-)competitive strategy -- as well as obviously a play | for the home entertainment system space with DRM) | | However these reasons are perhaps more than cancelled by: | | - dot-com bubble (though I saw some news reports earlier that though | there is lots of churn in programmers in general, that long term | unemployment rates were not that elevated in general) | | - perhaps security infrastructure and software upgrades are the first | things to be canned when cash runs short? | | - software security related contract employees laid off ahead of | full-timers? Certainly contracting seems to be flat in general, and | especially in crypto software contracts look few and far between. At | least in the UK some security people are employed in that way (not | familiar with north america). | | - PKI seems to have fizzled compared to earlier exaggerated | expectations, presumably lots of applied crypto jobs went at PKI | companies downsizing. (If you ask me over use of ASN.1 and adoption | of broken over complex and ill-defined ITU standards X.500, X.509 | delayed deployment schedules by order of magnitude over what was | strictly necessary and contributed to interoperability problems and I | think significantly to the flop of PKI -- if it's that hard because of | the broken tech, people will just do something else.) | | - custom crypto and security related software development is perhaps | weighted towards dot-coms that just crashed. | | - big one probably: lack of measurability of security -- developers | with no to limited crypto know-how are probably doing (and bodging) | most of the crypto development that gets done in general, certainly | contributing to the crappy state of crypto in software. So probably | failure to realise this issue or perhaps just not caring, or lack of | financial incentives to care on the part of software developers. | Microsoft is really good at this one. The number of times they | re-used RC4 keys in different protocols is amazing! | | | Other explanations? Statistics? Sample-of-one stories? | | Adam | -- | yes, still employed in sofware security industry; and in addition have | been doing crypto consulting since 97 (http://www.cypherspace.net/) if | you have any interesting applied crypto projects; reference | commissions paid. -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From perry at piermont.com Fri Aug 16 09:57:09 2002 From: perry at piermont.com (Perry E. Metzger) Date: 16 Aug 2002 12:57:09 -0400 Subject: employment market for applied cryptographers? In-Reply-To: <20020816022305.A970009@exeter.ac.uk> References: <20020816022305.A970009@exeter.ac.uk> Message-ID: <87y9b6pwre.fsf@snark.piermont.com> Adam Back writes: > Are there any more definitive security industry stats? Are applied > crypto people suffering higher rates of unemployment than general > application programmers? (From my statistically too small sample of > acquaintances it might appear so.) Hard to say. I've seen very high rates of unemployment among people of all walks of life in New York of late -- I know a lot of lawyers, systems administrators, secretaries, advertising types, etc. who are out of work or have been underemployed for a year or longer. I'm not sure that it is just cryptographers. Always keep in mind when you hear the latest economic statistics that measuring the size of the US economy, or the number of unemployed people, is partially voodoo. When was the last time you saw any estimate of the margin of error on the supposedly "scientific" measurement of quarterly economic growth? How many illegal immigrants are being polled in the employment stats? How much of the revenue of underground businesses gets counted in the GDP figures? (I myself am unemployed at the moment, but voluntarily so I suppose I wouldn't count in the statistics -- starting a company during a recession turns out to be a great way to burn yourself out out, so I decided to take some time off of working. Haven't given much thought to what I'll do to find a job when I decide I want one again...) Perry From despot at crosswinds.net Fri Aug 16 11:32:29 2002 From: despot at crosswinds.net (despot) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:32:29 -0400 Subject: employment market for applied cryptographers? Message-ID: <002201c24553$471d9b80$1000a8c0@dmn1.corsec.com> Having devoted security personnel is a low priority at most companies. General engineers will be tasked with figuring out how to incorporate "security" and cryptography into products. I have visited many a company where I am talking to a room full of very sharp engineers, but there is a fundamental lack of understanding of cryptographic primitives and their applications (let alone high-level protocols using those primitives). At large companies, having a few strong security engineers that can provide support to the various engineering areas should be a norm (if anything, from a liability perspective). At small companies, having security engineers who are also capable of general engineering is a good balance. It seems lately that neither is occurring, but this will probably correct itself as security becomes a military/gov't-demanded->(bank-demanded->)corporate-demanded->consumer-d emanded feature. Of note, in my (Washington DC Metro) area there has been plenty of demand for cryptographic/information assurance/security engineers. -Andrew PS One (vague) example of the blunders that occur... A friend of mine worked for a company and wanted me to meet a few of their engineers. We started talking about cryptography and the engineers told me a story. It seemed that this company had wanted to add encryption to their communications products and some engineers were tasked with building this feature. These engineers did some digging and they discovered asymmetric and symmetric cryptography. Since asymmetric cryptography seemed "better," they decided to use it (RSA algorithm) to encrypt/decrypt the traffic. (Bad idea.) (of note, this was eventually changed to using a public key-based key exchange of symmetric keys. These symmetric keys were then used by a symmetric algorithm to encrypt/decrypt the traffic. I do not know the details of the protocol used or if it was standards-based.) Using this example, bringing on a (probably contract) "cryptographic security engineer" would have saved a great deal of time and effort. From VoLCoMxStArQT28 at aol.com Fri Aug 16 05:35:20 2002 From: VoLCoMxStArQT28 at aol.com (VoLCoMxStArQT28 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:35:20 +0200 Subject: *Buddy* *Lists*!!~ (it's soooo cool)!~! Message-ID: <200208161235.g7GCZKw15688@srv016.freehosting.nl> Below is the result of your feedback form. It was submitted by (VoLCoMxStArQT28 at aol.com) on Friday, August 16, 2002 at 14:35:20 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- message: Hey!! What's Up? I'm *Monica* 20/F/Arizona/Webcam & Pics. I'm *LIVE* on my *FREE* Webcam mostly 24/7 so if you wanna come in and chat or see a couple of my pics on my website please go to my Personal Homepage at http://www.freelivewebcamchicks.net and hopefully i'll talk to you in a bit hun! If you join and the webchat is already full im sorry, just wait like 5 minutes and then you'll be able to see me LIVE!! If you don't have a webcam of your own its okay!! You can still watch and chat with me then!! *Remember* this is my Personal Homepage so of course its *FREE*!!! *ByE* <333 Monica <333 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From remailer at aarg.net Fri Aug 16 15:56:09 2002 From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 15:56:09 -0700 Subject: Cryptographic privacy protection in TCPA Message-ID: <0b9f4829b10ce20154d1cca436a26860@aarg.net> Here are some more thoughts on how cryptography could be used to enhance user privacy in a system like TCPA. Even if the TCPA group is not receptive to these proposals, it would be useful to have an understanding of the security issues. And the same issues arise in many other kinds of systems which use certificates with some degree of anonymity, so the discussion is relevant even beyond TCPA. The basic requirement is that users have a certificate on a long-term key which proves they are part of the system, but they don't want to show that cert or that key for most of their interactions, due to privacy concerns. They want to have their identity protected, while still being able to prove that they do have the appropriate cert. In the case of TCPA the key is locked into the TPM chip, the "endorsement key"; and the cert is called the "endorsement certificate", expected to be issued by the chip manufacturer. Let us call the originating cert issuer the CA in this document, and the long-term cert the "permanent certificate". A secondary requirement is for some kind of revocation in the case of misuse. For TCPA this would mean cracking the TPM and extracting its key. I can see two situations where this might lead to revocation. The first is a "global" crack, where the extracted TPM key is published on the net, so that everyone can falsely claim to be part of the TCPA system. That's a pretty obvious case where the key must be revoked for the system to have any integrity at all. The second case is a "local" crack, where a user has extracted his TPM key but keeps it secret, using it to cheat the TCPA protocols. This would be much harder to detect, and perhaps equally significantly, much harder to prove. Nevertheless, some way of responding to this situation is a desirable security feature. The TCPA solution is to use one or more Privacy CAs. You supply your permanent cert and a new short-term "identity" key; the Privacy CA validates the cert and then signs your key, giving you a new cert on the identity key. For routine use on the net, you show your identity cert and use your identity key; your permanent key and cert are never shown except to the Privacy CA. This means that the Privacy CA has the power to revoke your anonymity; and worse, he (or more precisely, his key) has the power to create bogus identities. On the plus side, the Privacy CA can check a revocation list and not issue a new identity cert of the permanent key has been revoked. And if someone has done a local crack and the evidence is strong enough, the Privacy CA can revoke his anonymity and allow his permanent key to be revoked. Let us now consider some cryptographic alternatives. The first is to use Chaum blinding for the Privacy CA interaction. As before, the user supplies his permanent cert to prove that he is a legitimate part of the system, but instead of providing an identity key to be certified, he supplies it in blinded form. The Privacy CA signs this blinded key, the user strips the blinding, and he is left with a cert from the Privacy CA on his identity key. He uses this as in the previous example, showing his privacy cert and using his privacy key. In this system, the Privacy CA no longer has the power to revoke your anonymity, because he only saw a blinded version of your identity key. However, the Privacy CA retains the power to create bogus identities, so the security risk is still there. If there has been a global crack, and a permanent key has been revoked, the Privacy CA can check the revocation list and prevent that user from acquiring new identities, so revocation works for global cracks. However, for local cracks, where there is suspicious behavior, there is no way to track down the permanent key associated with the cheater. All his interactions are done with an identity key which is unlinkable. So there is no way to respond to local cracks and revoke the keys. Actually, in this system the Privacy CA is not really protecting anyone's privacy, because it doesn't see any identities. There is no need for multiple Privacy CAs and it would make more sense to merge the Privacy CA and the original CA that issues the permanent certs. That way there would be only one agency with the power to forge keys, which would improve accountability and auditability. One problem with revocation in both of these systems, especially the one with Chaum blinding, is that existing identity certs (from before the fraud was detected) may still be usable. It is probably necessary to have identity certs be valid for only a limited time so that users with revoked keys are not able to continue to use their old identity certs. Brands credentials provide a more flexible and powerful approach than Chaum blinding which can potentially provide improvements. The basic setup is the same: users would go to a Privacy CA and show their permanent cert, getting a new cert on an identity key which they would use on the net. The difference is that Brands provides for "restrictive blinding". This allows the Privacy CA to issue a cert on a key which would be unlinkable to the permanent key under normal circumstances, but perhaps linkability could be established in some cases. It's not entirely clear how this technology could best be exploited to solve the problems. One possibility, for example, would be to encode information about the permanent key in the restrictive blinding. This would allow users to use their identity keys freely; but upon request they could prove things about their associated permanent keys. They could, for example, reveal the permanent key value associated with their identity key, and do so unforgeably. Or they could prove that their permanent key is not on a given list of revoked keys. Similar logical operations are possible including partial revelation of the permanent key information. However it does not appear possible to solve the case of a local crack using this technology. In that case it is unlikely that they would respond favorably to a request to reveal the permanent key associated with their identity, so that it could be revoked. Brands' technology would allow them to do so in a convincing manner, but they would not cooperate. In the end it's not clear how much Brands certificates really add over the basic Chaum blinding in this application. With the specific usage described above, they have the same basic security properties as in the case of Chaum blinding, except potentially for being able to prove that an identity cert is not associated with a revoked permanent key. Perhaps some other approach using his technology would be more successful. One other cryptographic method that might be relevant is the group signature. This allows someone to sign with a key where he does not reveal his signing key, but he proves that it is part of some group. In the relevant variants, the group is defined as the set of keys which has been certified by a "group membership key". This approach can therefore dispense with the Privacy CA entirely, and with blinding. Instead, the permanent key itself is used for signing on the net, but via a group signature which does not reveal the key value. Instead, the group signature protocol proves that the key exists and that it has been certified by the CA. The main problem with the group signature approach is handling revocation. In the case of a global crack, where someone has published his permanent key, at a minimum it is necessary to create a revocation list for those keys. This means that the group signature protocol must be extended to not only prove that a key exists and has been certified, but also that the key is not on the list of revoked keys - and to do this without revealing the key itself. That's a pretty complicated requirement which is pushing the state of the art. There is a paper being presented at Crypto 02 which claims to offer the first group signature scheme with efficient revocation. Group signatures also offer an optional mechanism which can deal with local cracks. The original group signature concept included the concept of a "revocation manager" who could link signatures to keys - that is, there is one trusted party who can tell which key issued a given signature. In most of the modern variants, this is accomplished by creating, as part of the group signature, an encrypted blob which holds the user's permanent key, where that blob can be encrypted to any specified key. The only one who can tell who made the signature is the key holder that the blob is encrypted to. If this mechanism is used, we can bring back the Privacy CA, who now functions as the party who can link signatures to permanent keys. When someone uses a group signature to participate in a TCPA network, he would optionally specify a Privacy CA who could reveal his permanent key. This would allow for a multiplicity of Privacy CAs with different policies about when and how they would reveal idenities, similar to the original (non-cryptographic) TCPA concept. Then it would be up to the recipients of the signature to judge whether they trusted that Privacy CA to unmask rogues upon sufficient evidence. The main advantage of this scheme over the non-cryptographic TCPA method is, first, that the Privacy CA is optional - users don't have to reveal their identity to anyone if they don't want; and second, that the Privacy CA no longer has the power to forge identities and disrupt the system. This strengthens the overall security of the system. Summing up, none of the alternatives presented here is ideal. The current scheme is among the worst, as it provides the weakest privacy protection and allows the Privacy CAs to break the security of the entire system. The Chaum and Brands blinding methods strengthen privacy at the cost of reducing the ability to respond to local cracks, where the user extracts his TPM key but keeps it to himself. Group signatures provide good privacy protection and can optionally respond to local cracks, but they are cutting edge cryptography and are generally less efficient than the other methods. From astroproject69 at inbox.lv Sat Aug 17 05:20:13 2002 From: astroproject69 at inbox.lv (Stefanie Kellison) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 17:20:13 -1900 Subject: Stop paying so much interest. Message-ID: <00004e8401f6$000076d0$0000683b@tom.inbox.lv> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 385 bytes Desc: not available URL: From eresrch at eskimo.com Fri Aug 16 19:15:13 2002 From: eresrch at eskimo.com (Mike Rosing) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 19:15:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cryptographic privacy protection in TCPA In-Reply-To: <0b9f4829b10ce20154d1cca436a26860@aarg.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Aug 2002, AARG! Anonymous wrote: > Here are some more thoughts on how cryptography could be used to > enhance user privacy in a system like TCPA. Even if the TCPA group > is not receptive to these proposals, it would be useful to have an > understanding of the security issues. And the same issues arise in > many other kinds of systems which use certificates with some degree > of anonymity, so the discussion is relevant even beyond TCPA. OK, I'm going to discuss it from a philosophical perspective. i.e. I'm just having fun with this. > The basic requirement is that users have a certificate on a long-term key > which proves they are part of the system, but they don't want to show that > cert or that key for most of their interactions, due to privacy concerns. > They want to have their identity protected, while still being able to > prove that they do have the appropriate cert. In the case of TCPA the > key is locked into the TPM chip, the "endorsement key"; and the cert > is called the "endorsement certificate", expected to be issued by the > chip manufacturer. Let us call the originating cert issuer the CA in > this document, and the long-term cert the "permanent certificate". I don't like the idea that users *must* have a "certificate". Why can't each person develop their own personal levels of trust and associate it with their own public key? Using multiple channels, people can prove their key is their word. If any company wants to associate a certificate with a customer, that can have lots of meanings to lots of other people. I don't see the usefullness of a "permanent certificate". Human interaction over electronic media has to deal with monkeys, because that's what humans are :-) > A secondary requirement is for some kind of revocation in the case > of misuse. For TCPA this would mean cracking the TPM and extracting > its key. I can see two situations where this might lead to revocation. > The first is a "global" crack, where the extracted TPM key is published > on the net, so that everyone can falsely claim to be part of the TCPA > system. That's a pretty obvious case where the key must be revoked for > the system to have any integrity at all. The second case is a "local" > crack, where a user has extracted his TPM key but keeps it secret, using > it to cheat the TCPA protocols. This would be much harder to detect, > and perhaps equally significantly, much harder to prove. Nevertheless, > some way of responding to this situation is a desirable security feature. Ouch, that doesn't sound too robust. > The TCPA solution is to use one or more Privacy CAs. You supply your > permanent cert and a new short-term "identity" key; the Privacy CA > validates the cert and then signs your key, giving you a new cert on the > identity key. For routine use on the net, you show your identity cert > and use your identity key; your permanent key and cert are never shown > except to the Privacy CA. > > This means that the Privacy CA has the power to revoke your anonymity; > and worse, he (or more precisely, his key) has the power to create bogus > identities. On the plus side, the Privacy CA can check a revocation list > and not issue a new identity cert of the permanent key has been revoked. > And if someone has done a local crack and the evidence is strong enough, > the Privacy CA can revoke his anonymity and allow his permanent key to > be revoked. The CA has a bit too much power if you ask me. Those are some really good reasons not to like the idea of a "permanent certificate" ruled by one (nasty?) person. [...] > Actually, in this system the Privacy CA is not really protecting > anyone's privacy, because it doesn't see any identities. There is no > need for multiple Privacy CAs and it would make more sense to merge > the Privacy CA and the original CA that issues the permanent certs. > That way there would be only one agency with the power to forge keys, > which would improve accountability and auditability. I really, REALLY, *REALLY*, don't like the idea of one entity having the ability to create or destroy any persons ability to use their computer at whim. You are suggesting that one person (or small group) has the power to create (or not) and revoke (or not!) any and all TPM's! I don't know how to describe my astoundment at the lack of comprehension of history. [...] > It's not entirely clear how this technology could best be exploited to > solve the problems. One possibility, for example, would be to encode > information about the permanent key in the restrictive blinding. > This would allow users to use their identity keys freely; but upon > request they could prove things about their associated permanent keys. > They could, for example, reveal the permanent key value associated with > their identity key, and do so unforgeably. Or they could prove that their > permanent key is not on a given list of revoked keys. Similar logical > operations are possible including partial revelation of the permanent > key information. There's no problem if we just extend our normal concepts of trust between humans on a face to face level onto the net. Person to person, peer to peer, face to face. It's all the same thing, and using the technology to make it happen the same way it happens in the street is going to be the ultimate success story. Nobody controls everything, but some people have some control of some resources. People who attempt to rule the whole world usually burn out sooner or later :-) [...] > The main problem with the group signature approach is handling revocation. > In the case of a global crack, where someone has published his permanent > key, at a minimum it is necessary to create a revocation list for those > keys. This means that the group signature protocol must be extended > to not only prove that a key exists and has been certified, but also > that the key is not on the list of revoked keys - and to do this without > revealing the key itself. That's a pretty complicated requirement which > is pushing the state of the art. There is a paper being presented at > Crypto 02 which claims to offer the first group signature scheme with > efficient revocation. How about everybody on their block signs each other's keys, and when one monkey misbehaves, the other ones toss 'em out of the troop. A Web of trust is kind of like a group signature. [...] > Summing up, none of the alternatives presented here is ideal. The current > scheme is among the worst, as it provides the weakest privacy protection > and allows the Privacy CAs to break the security of the entire system. > The Chaum and Brands blinding methods strengthen privacy at the cost of > reducing the ability to respond to local cracks, where the user extracts > his TPM key but keeps it to himself. Group signatures provide good > privacy protection and can optionally respond to local cracks, but they > are cutting edge cryptography and are generally less efficient than the > other methods. If a company wants control of their hardware, they should put their own private keys in each machine. They can use that with each persons public key and create a reasonably secure system for their business. They don't need a privacy CA, and they can prove to any other firm that the person with the box on their premisis *must* be from the right place. If TCPA is going to fly as a real business it can't just be for DRM. If copyright owners want people to buy their stuff, they'll have to sell "copyright owners certificate" which can be based on the customer's key. Again, nobody needs a privacy CA. There is no valid argument for centralized control *of anything*. TCPA is a valid concept in and of itself. It's way too dangerous a weapon if forced down people's throats the wrong way. So the TCPA guys should sell their boxes as useful tools to lots of big corporations, and forget about the "content industry". There's a lot more money to be made solving real problems for real people. Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike From freeexmatkew at puc.cl Fri Aug 16 17:23:13 2002 From: freeexmatkew at puc.cl (freeexmatkew at puc.cl) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 19:23:13 -0500 Subject: FREE OFFER! 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Guilin, China ============================================================= ���ʼ�ʹ�� �����ʼ�Ⱥ����� ����,�ʼ��������������޹� ������� http://www.caretop.com ============================================================= From nobody at remailer.privacy.at Fri Aug 16 16:15:14 2002 From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 01:15:14 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Schneier on Palladium and the TCPA Message-ID: <957022871063d40758522c065b140bfb@remailer.privacy.at> Bruce Schneier wrote about Palladium: > Basically, Pd is Microsoft's attempt to build a trusted computer, much as I > discussed the concept in "Secrets and Lies" (pages 127-130); read it for > background). Actually his discussion in the book is about traditional "secure OS" concepts such as Multics. Trusted computing attempts to go considerably beyond this. > The idea is that different users on the system have > limitations on their abilities, and are walled off from each other. That was the idea for secure OS's. For trusted computing it is more that you can have trust in an application running on a remote system, that it is what it claims, and that it has a certain degree of immunity from being compromised. > Pd provides protection against two broad classes of attacks. Automatic > software attacks (viruses, Trojans, network-mounted exploits) are contained > because an exploited flaw in one part of the system can't affect the rest > of the system. And local software-based attacks (e.g., using debuggers to > pry things open) are protected because of the separation between parts of > the system. It's interesting that Bruce sees it in terms of attacks like this. As he is now in the managed security business, it makes sense that he would look at Palladium in terms of how much security it can add to a system. As far as viruses and such, the protection Palladium offers would seem to be that if you load a trusted component, and it has been infected by a virus since the last time you ran it, its hash will change. This means that it will no longer be able to access sealed data - it won't be able to get into the "virtual vault" because it is no longer the same program. Likewise it would not be able to participate in any trusted networking because the fact of its compromise would be remotely observable (due to the hash change). This is not an all-purpose defense against viruses and such; it would be restricted to the "trusted" parts of applications and it would only work specifically with sealed data and trusted networking. But for some purposes it could be quite useful. Imagine a banking app which keeps your account access info sealed in a virtual vault; then no other app can get to the data, so you are immune to virus attacks elsewhere in the system; and if even the banking app itself is compromised, it will no longer be able to get into its own vault. > There are security features that tie programs and data to CPU and to user, > and encrypt them for privacy. This is probably necessary to make Pd work, > but has a side-effect that I'm sure Microsoft is thrilled with. Like books > and furniture and clothing, the person who currently buys new software can > resell it when he's done with it. People have a right to do this -- it's > called the "First Sale Doctrine" in the United States -- but the software > industry has long claimed that software is not sold, but licensed, and > cannot be transferred. When someone sells a Pd-equipped computer, he is > likely to clear his keys so that his identity can't be used or files can't > be read. This will also serve to erase all the software he purchased. The > end result might be that people won't be able to resell software, even if > they wanted to. This is a pretty far-fetched scenario, for several reasons. First, according to Peter Biddle, Palladium is designed to protect content and not programs. Sure, maybe you don't believe him, but at least he's on record as saying it. And what is known of the Palladium architecture is consistent with his claim. The limited architectural diagrams in the Palladium white paper don't show any mechanism for locking code to a computer. But there are other problems with Bruce's scenario. It assumes (apparently) that you aren't copying your programs to your replacement computer when you get rid of the old one! That doesn't make sense. You have an investment of hundreds or thousands of dollars in software. You'll want to copy it over, and certainly Palladium will allow that. So what's his objection in that case: that you can't sell an illegal copy of your old software once you've installed it on the new system? What's the "First Sale Doctrine" got to do with that? It doesn't allow for you to both keep a copy of your software and to sell it. If he's objecting that Palladium won't let you break the law in some ways you can today, let him say so openly. But as it is he is claiming that Palladium will compromise the First Sale Doctrine, and that interpretation doesn't hold water. It's also not at all clear why you would want to wipe your keys like this. It should be enough to just delete your data files from the disk. It's not like the trusted computing chip will hold kilobytes of sensitive personal data. All it has is a few keys, so if you get rid of the data, the keys don't matter. And then, how different is that from what you do today? If you sell an old computer, you should clear out the sensitive data files, even if you leave the applications in place. There is no reason why Palladium would be any different. > Pd is inexorably tied up with Digital Rights Management. Your computer > will have several partitions, each of which will be able to read and write > its own data. There's nothing in Pd that prevents someone else (MPAA, > Disney, Microsoft, your boss) from setting up a partition on your computer > and putting stuff there that you can't get at. Microsoft has repeatedly > said that they are not going to mandate DRM, or try to control DRM systems, > but clearly Pd was designed with DRM in mind. Everyone says this last point, and maybe it's true. But at the same time it's worth noting that Pd does more than is necessary for DRM - and in fact it is not optimal for DRM. The fact that Pd is open and useful for a wide range of other applications is one piece of evidence. We have even discussed a Palladiumized Napster (PDster?) which could undercut the interests of the content companies. Microsoft didn't have to make Palladium an open system; they could have kept control over the keys, and required that only signed apps can run as trusted (as most people still appear to believe; see the discussion today on slashdot). Maybe you can argue that Microsoft felt forced to do an open system just for public relations reasons, that they knew they'd take too much heat if they produced the closed system they hypothetically wanted. Whatever their reasons, the fact is that Pd is a lot more open than is optimal for DRM, and people should recognize that fact. > It's hard to sort out the antitrust implications of Pd. Lots of people > have written about it. Will Microsoft jigger Pd to prevent Linux from > running? They don't dare. This piece of sanity is a breath of fresh air. If only Ross Anderson and Lucky Green and most of the cypherpunks had a similarly sound grip on reality, the discussion of these technologies would have been greatly improved. > Will it take standard Internet protocols and > replace them with Microsoft-proprietary protocols? I don't think so. Will > you need a Pd-enabled device -- the system is meant for both > general-purpose computers and specialized media devices -- in order to view > copyrighted content? More likely. Will Microsoft enforce its Pd patents > as strongly as it can? Almost certainly. Right, I think one of the big issues is whether Microsoft's patents cover Palladium and TCPA, and whether it will even be possible to make a Linux version of a trusted computing system. As I have written before, in some ways Linux is a much better platform for trusted computing than Windows (due to its transparency, so much more important now that apps can cloak themselves from users). But if Microsoft patents block such an effort, that could be a serious problem. It is encouraging that HP and perhaps IBM are going forward with a TCPA-enabled Linux; that suggests that the Microsoft patents don't cover at least that specific architecture. > 1. A "trusted" computer does not mean a computer that is trustworthy. The > DoD's definition of a trusted system is one that can break your security > policy; i.e., a system that you are forced to trust because you have no > choice. Pd will have trusted features; the jury is still out as to whether > or not they are trustworthy. Ross Anderson makes a similar point, but it is quite misleading. It implies that trusted computing is in some sense weaker than ordinary computing because it requires you to trust more systems. But it misses the point, that trusted computing for the first time gives you grounds to trust remote systems. That's what's really new here, the ability to have some foundation for trust in what a remote system is doing. And so I think the word trust is very appropriate here, and it carries its usual connotations and meaning. No one is "forced" to trust anything. Trusted computing will make it more reasonable for people to choose to trust remote systems. > 2. When you think about a secure computer, the first question you should > ask is: "Secure for whom?" Microsoft has said that Pd allows the > computer-owner to prevent others from putting their own secure areas on the > computer. But really, what is the likelihood of that really > happening? The NSA will be able to buy Pd-enabled computers and secure > them from all outside influence. I doubt that you or I could, and still > enjoy the richness of the Internet. To a large extent this is already true. Who knows what is in the data files and registry entries for all the closed-source Windows apps on the market? You already have apps putting crap on your computer and you have no idea what is there. Pd lets them wrap it in a secure envelope, but that doesn't change the fact that data files are already essentially opaque to the typical user. > Microsoft really doesn't care about > what you think; they care about what the RIAA and the MPAA > think. Microsoft can't afford to have the media companies not make their > content available on Microsoft platforms, and they will do what they can to > accommodate them. This reasoning is totally backwards. The RIAA are not Microsoft's customers. Microsoft doesn't sell much software to them. Why can't Microsoft afford for them not to make content available? It's because of the end users. Those are the people Microsoft cares about! It is those people who buy Microsoft software. The RIAA is only a means to the end, the end being making end users happy. Users want to be able to play music and movies on their computers. Microsoft is trying to satisfy this market need. The implication that Microsoft somehow doesn't care about end users and is only concerned about the content industry has it totally backwards. Microsoft cares only about the end users; the problem is that it needs the content industry's permission in order to make end users happy. This puts Microsoft between a rock and a hard place: the insatiable thirst for content on the part of users, and the unreasoning terror which the content companies feel about making their wares available on the net. IMO this explains the openness of the Pd design. Microsoft is not in the pocket of the content companies, and Pd is not primarily about DRM. It needs to be sufficient to provide DRM, but at the same time Microsoft really wants to satisfy its customers, the people who buy PCs. It is for them that Microsoft makes Pd open, makes it optional, lets people run whatever apps they like in trusted space. Microsoft is gambling that an open Pd will provide benefits over and above DRM, even if its openness makes the content companies unhappy. > 4. Pay attention to the antitrust angle. I guarantee you that Microsoft > believes Pd is a way to extend its market share, not to increase competition. I agree that the point of Pd is totally to increase Microsoft's market share. In fact, as a general principle, everything every business does is for that specific reason. IMO it is sufficient to point to the many benefits Pd can provide to end users to explain why Microsoft is pushing Palladium. > There's a lot of good stuff in Pd, and a lot I like about it. Bruce listed the increased immunity to viruses, trojans and the like; and the better-than-expected protection of user privacy. Not much else. It's not clear whether this counts as a lot to like, or whether there are other things he likes which he did not mention here. > There's also > a lot I don't like, and am scared of. My fear is that Pd will lead us down > a road where our computers are no longer our computers, but are instead > owned by a variety of factions and companies all looking for a piece of our > wallet. To the extent that Pd facilitates that reality, it's bad for > society. I don't mind companies selling, renting, or licensing things to > me, but the loss of the power, reach, and flexibility of the computer is > too great a price to pay. I can understand that those who have this vision of the future would oppose Pd. But I don't see this road laid out before us as so many other people do. Pd allows you to run apps that can prove to others that they are what they say, that can run and store data without being compromised. I don't see this as a step towards Big Brother. If it did what people believed, took over your computer and let other people run apps on it without your permission, wouldn't let you run your own apps, gave other people "root" on your computer and took it away from you, I'd agree with the concerns Bruce and others have raised. But it doesn't do these things. And to the extent that Pd moves in that direction, it seems to me that PKI's and digital certificates and even encryption have already put us on the road, creating data that is opaque to us, data that we hold but are powerless to alter, data which is in effect owned by someone else even though it rests on our own equipment. From prentum at prentum.com Fri Aug 16 10:16:26 2002 From: prentum at prentum.com (prentum at prentum.com) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 01:16:26 +0800 Subject: Heightening Shoes Message-ID: <200208161717.g7GHHZkW001331@ak47.algebra.com> Dear Sir/lady, Heightening Shoes, are you interest in it? Its points as below: 1. It's suitable for the short of people with the design of its invisible heightening layers(insole). It can increase one's height up to 6-10cm. The shoes contain no chemical medicine. This production is not medicinal shoe. 2. The heightening layer is invisible. With high layer in them, they feel no different than ordinary shoes. 3. The structural design is proportionate also streamline, and the insoles/heightening layers are made with elasticity material, so it is comfortable to the feet. 4. The ordinarily type of heightening shoes are without intakes, the ventilating type of heightening shoes are with intakes and more comfortable. 5. The technology of the heightening shoes is original with the China's patent. You can see details regarding this heightening shoe and other many footwear if you go to our website: www.prentum.com Don't hesitate to contact us if you are interest in this item. Best regards. Mr. Long Tan Prentum Developing Corp. Guilin, China ============================================================= ���ʼ�ʹ�� �����ʼ�Ⱥ����� ����,�ʼ��������������޹� ������� http://www.caretop.com ============================================================= From gabe at seul.org Fri Aug 16 23:47:23 2002 From: gabe at seul.org (Gabriel Rocha) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 02:47:23 -0400 Subject: Carnival Booth: An Algorithm for Defeating the CAPS System Message-ID: <20020817024723.A2800@seul.org> http://swissnet.ai.mit.edu/6805/student-papers/spring02-papers/caps.htm Abstract To improve the efficiency of airport security screening, the FAA deployed the Computer Assisted Passenger Screening system (CAPS) in 1999. CAPS attempts to identify potential terrorists through the use of profiles so that security personnel can focus the bulk of their attention on high-risk individuals. In this paper, we show that since CAPS uses profiles to select passengers for increased scrutiny, it is actually less secure than systems that employ random searches. In particular, we present an algorithm called Carnival Booth that demonstrates how a terrorist cell can defeat the CAPS system. Using a combination of statistical analysis and computer simulation, we evaluate the efficacy of Carnival Booth and illustrate that CAPS is an ineffective security measure. Based on these findings, we argue that CAPS should not be legally permissible since it does not satisfy court-interpreted exemptions to the Fourth Amendment. Finally, based both on our analysis of CAPS and historical case studies, we provide policy recommendations on how to improve air security. From rkm2 at universal-inkjet.com Sat Aug 17 03:00:10 2002 From: rkm2 at universal-inkjet.com (rkm2 at universal-inkjet.com) Date: Sat,17 Aug 2002 03:00:10 -0700 Subject: Own printer or copier? Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 5763 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kelsey.j at ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 17 00:29:07 2002 From: kelsey.j at ix.netcom.com (John Kelsey) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 03:29:07 -0400 Subject: employment market for applied cryptographers? In-Reply-To: <87y9b6pwre.fsf@snark.piermont.com> References: <20020816022305.A970009@exeter.ac.uk> <20020816022305.A970009@exeter.ac.uk> Message-ID: <4.1.20020817031619.0098c6b0@pop.ix.netcom.com> At 12:57 PM 8/16/02 -0400, Perry E. Metzger wrote: ... >I've seen very high rates of unemployment among people of all walks of >life in New York of late -- I know a lot of lawyers, systems >administrators, secretaries, advertising types, etc. who are out of >work or have been underemployed for a year or longer. I'm not sure >that it is just cryptographers. This is my experience, too. A huge number of the people I know around here (RTP area, mid-North Carolina) are out of work, or are worried that they soon will be. This set of people includes only one cryptographer (and he's got a job). >Always keep in mind when you hear the latest economic statistics that >measuring the size of the US economy, or the number of unemployed >people, is partially voodoo. Also that regions and industries can vary enormously in how their economy is going. Areas where a lot of jobs are in the computer or travel industries, for example, are going to have a lot of unemployment, as this area does. And also, it's important to note that most of us in this field might move to a different field (e.g., more general software development, teaching, etc.) rather than live without paychecks for a long time. Or might decide that now is the time to go back to school. Unemployment stats measure (if I'm remembering it right) only people who are not working, but are actively looking for work. (I don't know what definition is used to decide if you're really looking or not.) I feel very fortunate to still have a job, given all that's going on in this industry. >Perry --John Kelsey, kelsey.j at ix.netcom.com // jkelsey at certicom.com From kelsey.j at ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 17 00:37:19 2002 From: kelsey.j at ix.netcom.com (John Kelsey) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 03:37:19 -0400 Subject: employment market for applied cryptographers? In-Reply-To: References: <20020816022305.A970009@exeter.ac.uk> Message-ID: <4.1.20020817033102.0098b580@pop.ix.netcom.com> At 04:21 AM 8/16/02 -0400, dmolnar wrote: ... >Don't forget schedule pressure, the overhead of bringing in a contractor >to do crypto protocol design, and the not-invented-here syndrome. I think >all of these contribute to keeping protocol design in-house, regardless of >the technical skill of the parties involved. Also, designing new crypto protocols, or analyzing old ones used in odd ways, is mostly useful for companies that are offering some new service on the net, or doing some wildly new thing. Many of the obvious new things have been done, for better or worse, and few companies are able to get funding for whatever cool new ideas they may have for the net, good or bad. And without funding, people are a lot more likely to either decide to do the security themselves, apply openSSL and a lot of duct tape and hope for the best, or just ignore security. Sure, it may cost a lot later, but they're going broke *now*. >-David --John Kelsey, kelsey.j at ix.netcom.com // jkelsey at certicom.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From remailer at aarg.net Sat Aug 17 11:45:28 2002 From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 11:45:28 -0700 Subject: Cryptographic privacy protection in TCPA Message-ID: Dr. Mike wrote, patiently, persistently and truthfully: > > On Fri, 16 Aug 2002, AARG! Anonymous wrote: > > > Here are some more thoughts on how cryptography could be used to > > enhance user privacy in a system like TCPA. Even if the TCPA group > > is not receptive to these proposals, it would be useful to have an > > understanding of the security issues. And the same issues arise in > > many other kinds of systems which use certificates with some degree > > of anonymity, so the discussion is relevant even beyond TCPA. > > OK, I'm going to discuss it from a philosophical perspective. > i.e. I'm just having fun with this. Fine, but let me put this into perspective. First, although the discussion is in terms of a centralized issuer, the same issues arise if there are multiple issuers, even in a web-of-trust situation. So don't get fixated on the fact that my analysis assumed a single issuer - that was just for simplicity in what was already a very long message. The abstract problem to be solved is this: given that there is some property which is being asserted via cryptographic certificates (credentials), we want to be able to show possession of that property in an anonymous way. In TCPA the property is "being a valid TPM". Another example would be a credit rating agency who can give out a "good credit risk" credential. You want to be able to show it anonymously in some cases. Yet another case would be a state drivers license agency which gives out an "over age 21" credential, again where you want to be able to show it anonymously. This is actually one of the oldest problems which proponents of cryptographic anonymity attempted to address, going back to David Chaum's seminal work. TCPA could represent the first wide-scale example of cryptographic credentials being shown anonymously. That in itself ought to be of interest to cypherpunks. Unfortunately TCPA is not going for full cryptographic protection of anonymity, but relying on Trusted Third Parties in the form of Privacy CAs. My analysis suggests that although there are a number of solutions in the cryptographic literature, none of them are ideal in this case. Unless we can come up with a really strong solution that satisfies all the security properties, it is going to be hard to make a case that the use of TTPs is a mistake. > I don't like the idea that users *must* have a "certificate". Why > can't each person develop their own personal levels of trust and > associate it with their own public key? Using multiple channels, > people can prove their key is their word. If any company wants to > associate a certificate with a customer, that can have lots of meanings > to lots of other people. I don't see the usefullness of a "permanent > certificate". Human interaction over electronic media has to deal > with monkeys, because that's what humans are :-) A certificate is a standardized and unforgeable statement that some person or key has a particular property, that's all. The kind of system you are talking about, of personal knowledge and trust, can't really be generalized to an international economy. > > Actually, in this system the Privacy CA is not really protecting > > anyone's privacy, because it doesn't see any identities. There is no > > need for multiple Privacy CAs and it would make more sense to merge > > the Privacy CA and the original CA that issues the permanent certs. > > That way there would be only one agency with the power to forge keys, > > which would improve accountability and auditability. > > I really, REALLY, *REALLY*, don't like the idea of one entity having > the ability to create or destroy any persons ability to use their > computer at whim. You are suggesting that one person (or small group) > has the power to create (or not) and revoke (or not!) any and all TPM's! > > I don't know how to describe my astoundment at the lack of comprehension > of history. Whoever makes a statement about a property should have the power to revoke it. I am astounded that you think this is a radical notion. If one or a few entities become widely trusted to make and revoke statements that people care about, it is because they have earned that trust. If the NY Times says something is true, people tend to believe it. If Intel says that such-and-such a key is in a valid TPM, people may choose to believe this based on Intel's reputation. If Intel later determines that the key has been published on the net and so can no longer be presumed to be a TPM key, it revokes its statement. This does not mean that Intel would destroy any person's ability to use their computer on a whim. First, having the TPM cert revoked would not destroy your ability to use your computer; at worst you could no longer persuade other people of your trustworthiness. And second, Intel would not make these kind of decision on a whim, any more than the NY Times would publish libelous articles on a whim; doing so would risk destroying the company's reputation, one of its most valuable assets. I can't really respond to the remainder of the message. It doesn't seem to have anything to do with the real issues. Hopefully my introduction above will have put the problem into perspective. I suggest you educate yourself on cryptographic technologies for anonymity. You might start with David Chaum's early CACM article, http://www.chaum.com/articles/Security_Wthout_Identification.htm. From ojoe892 at cameltoelovers.com Sat Aug 17 10:14:00 2002 From: ojoe892 at cameltoelovers.com (ojoe892 at cameltoelovers.com) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 13:14 -0400 Subject: The free blow job Message-ID: <200208170506.g7H55vkV031342@ak47.algebra.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3755 bytes Desc: not available URL: From remailer at remailer.xganon.com Sat Aug 17 12:26:47 2002 From: remailer at remailer.xganon.com (Anonymous) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 14:26:47 -0500 Subject: Signing as one member of a set of keys Message-ID: Steps to verify the "ring signature" file (note: you must have the openssl library installed): 1. Save http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.2002.08.05-2002.08.11/msg00221.html, as text, to the file ringsig.c. Delete the paragraph of explanation, and/or any HTML junk, so the file starts with: /* Implementation of ring signatures from * http://theory.lcs.mit.edu/~rivest/RivestShamirTauman-HowToLeakASecret.pdf * by Rivest, Shamir and Tauman and it ends with: lPglqmmy3p4D+psNU1rlNv6yH/L0PgcuW7taVpbopjl4HLuJdWcKHJlXish3D/jb eoQ856fYFZ/omGiO9x1D0BsnGFLZVWob4OIZRzO/Pc49VIhFy5NsV2zuozStId89 [...] */ 2. The "[...]" above is where a remailer caused some of the signature to be stripped out. Replace the last few lines of ringsig.c with the text from http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.2002.08.05-2002.08.11/msg00306.html. This has the lines from the END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK line onward. The last lines of the ringsig.c file should be: BjHTDH0VZeu3IxUFh37w2fIEehL8WrXvCoCMFnd1/bnn/qI/STXgg6as579/yBIJ nJra7Ceru4q4wUssK79T6SdOM6wcvVg96ub4UOTaPO4wYhhadCbLFpl3tPfTLceb */ 3. Compile ringsig.c using the openssl library, to form an executable file "ringsig". Try running ringsig and you will get a usage message. 4. Get the two perl scripts from http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.2002.08.05-2002.08.11/msg00313.html and save them as "ringver" and "ringsign". 5. Run the ringsig.c file through the "pgp" program to create a PGP key ring file from the PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK data. With the command line version of PGP 2.6.2 the command is: pgp -ka ringsig.c sigring.pgp This will also show you the set of keys, one of which made the signature. *** COULD SOMEONE PLEASE FOLLOW THE STEPS ABOVE AND PUT THE ringsig.c, ringsign, ringver, AND sigring.pgp FILES ON A WEB PAGE SO THAT PEOPLE CAN DOWNLOAD THEM WITHOUT HAVING TO GO THROUGH ALL THESE STEPS? *** 6. Finally, the verification step: run the ringver perl script, giving the PGP key file created in step 5 as an argument, and giving it the ringsig.c file as standard input: ./ringver sigring.pgp < ringsig.c This should print the message "Good signature". 7. How do you know what this means? For that you have to read the paper referenced in the program to become convinced of the theory, and then to study the program to be convinced that it implements the algorithm in the paper. 8. To create your own signatures, create a PGP keyring file which holds your own key as well as the keys of other people that you want people to think might have issued the signature. They must all be RSA public keys. Create a PGP secring.pgp file which holds just your secret key, and change your passphrase on that key to be blank. (This is temporary, you can change it back or delete the secring.pgp when you are done.) Then use the ringsign perl script: "./ringsign filetosign pubkeyfile privkeyfile > outfile" This will append a signature to the file you are signing. You also need to make sure the recipient knows the pubkeyfile, so you may want to send that separately, or include it in the file being signed as was done in this case. 9. Please report whether you were able to succeed, and if not, which step failed for you. BTW there are a couple of papers on ring signatures to be presented at Crypto 02 so there might be some new improvements coming to the code if the ideas look good. One possibility is extending them to work with DSS keys in addition to the current RSA keys. From bbs at http.net Sat Aug 17 00:41:37 2002 From: bbs at http.net (=?gb2312?q?=C0=CF=C0=EE_) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 15:41:37 +0800 Subject: =?gb2312?q?=C0=CF=C5=F3=D3=D1=A3=AC=BD=FC=C0=B4=BA=C3=C2=F0=A3=BF_?= Message-ID: <200208170744.g7H7i0J73091@locust.minder.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 957 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bbs at http.net Sat Aug 17 03:26:48 2002 From: bbs at http.net (=?gb2312?q?=F4=E4=B4=E4.com_club_) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 18:26:48 +0800 Subject: =?gb2312?q?=BF=EC=BF=EC=BC=D3=C8=EB=F4=E4=B4=E4.com_club=A3=AC=BE=AB=C3=C0=F4=E4=B4=E4?= Message-ID: <200208171029.g7HATFJ81636@locust.minder.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 957 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dave at farber.net Sat Aug 17 18:27:04 2002 From: dave at farber.net (Dave Farber) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 21:27:04 -0400 Subject: IP: The FCC NPRM on the Broadcast Flag Message-ID: I am in data gathering mode preparatory to writing a response to the FCC NPRM on the Digital Broadcast flag. While I was at the FCC I had a set of opportunities to hear out the media companies about that and I was unconvinced then that it was a good idea. I am more convinced now that it is not wise. I am interested in Ipers opinions on this -- for and against and will share the responses when I digest them. (as well as credit the ideas in the response (with or without attribution -- your call)). Dave For archives see: http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/ --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From rah at shipwright.com Sat Aug 17 20:06:58 2002 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 23:06:58 -0400 Subject: IP: The FCC NPRM on the Broadcast Flag Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Sat Aug 17 22:46:09 2002 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 01:46:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: employment market for applied cryptographers? In-Reply-To: <4.1.20020817033102.0098b580@pop.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Aug 2002, John Kelsey wrote: > Also, designing new crypto protocols, or analyzing old ones used in odd > ways, is mostly useful for companies that are offering some new service on > the net, or doing some wildly new thing. Many of the obvious new things I agree with this as far as "crypto" protocols go. But one thing to keep in mind is that almost all protocols impact security, whether their dsigners realize it or not. Especially protocols for file transfer, print spooling, or reservation of resources. most of these are designed without people identifying them as "crypto protocols." Another thing that makes it worse -- composition of protocols. You can do an authentication protocol and prove you're "you." Then what? Does that confer security properties upon following protocols, and if so what? -David --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From cypher3fwa at yahoo.com Sun Aug 18 00:28:42 2002 From: cypher3fwa at yahoo.com (cypher3fwa) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 03:28:42 -0400 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <200208180734.g7I7YukV029621@ak47.algebra.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3149 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jigwig506448121 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 18 03:21:01 2002 From: jigwig506448121 at hotmail.com (jigwig506448121 at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 06:21:01 -0400 Subject: Protect your job, you family and your sanity. EZ Internet Privacy Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2362 bytes Desc: not available URL: From do7sasf8c494 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 18 22:02:27 2002 From: do7sasf8c494 at yahoo.com (Kayla) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 10:02:27 -1900 Subject: V*i*a*g*r*a - order now.... JUUZQGKFY Message-ID: <00000faf6eb4$00007bc3$00003582@mx2.mail.yahoo.com> We ship worldwide within 24 hours! No waiting rooms, drug stores, or embarrassing conversations. Our licensed pharmacists will have your order to you in 1 or 2 days! Click this link to get started today! http://www.atlanticmeds.com/main2.php?rx=17692 VIAGRA and many other prescription drugs available, including: XENICAL and PHENTERMINE, weight loss medications used to help overweight people lose weight and keep this weight off. VALTREX, Treatement for Herpes. PROPECIA, the first pill that effectively treats male pattern hair loss. ZYBAN, Zyban is the first nicotine-free pill that, as part of a comprehensive program from your health care professional, can help you stop smoking. CLARITIN, provides effective relief from the symptoms of seasonal allergies. And Much More... Cilck this link to get started today! http://www.atlanticmeds.com/main2.php?rx=17692 to be excluded in the future, contact thankyou2002 at post.com haushelga From cypherpunks at Algebra.COM Sun Aug 18 08:56:06 2002 From: cypherpunks at Algebra.COM (cypherpunks at Algebra.COM) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 10:56:06 -0500 Subject: This Girl Is Definitely Too Young Message-ID: Snapping Tight Teens Best of All They're FREE http://81.29.4.12/u001s46/index.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1530 bytes Desc: not available URL: From adam at homeport.org Sun Aug 18 10:04:11 2002 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 13:04:11 -0400 Subject: employment market for applied cryptographers? In-Reply-To: ; from dmolnar@hcs.harvard.edu on Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 01:46:09AM -0400 References: <4.1.20020817033102.0098b580@pop.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <20020818130410.A27946@lightship.internal.homeport.org> On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 01:46:09AM -0400, dmolnar wrote: | | | On Sat, 17 Aug 2002, John Kelsey wrote: | | > Also, designing new crypto protocols, or analyzing old ones used in odd | > ways, is mostly useful for companies that are offering some new service on | > the net, or doing some wildly new thing. Many of the obvious new things | | I agree with this as far as "crypto" protocols go. But one thing to keep | in mind is that almost all protocols impact security, whether their | dsigners realize it or not. Especially protocols for file transfer, print | spooling, or reservation of resources. most of these are designed without | people identifying them as "crypto protocols." | | Another thing that makes it worse -- composition of protocols. You can do | an authentication protocol and prove you're "you." Then what? Does that | confer security properties upon following protocols, and if so what? Why does the CEO care? Is it economic to answer these questions? Do these questions terminate or go on forever? Do good security experts ever say "its secure?" Or do we keep finding new and better holes that require more engineering work to fix? As Eric used to say, all security is economics. Adam -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From adam at cypherspace.org Sun Aug 18 08:58:56 2002 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 16:58:56 +0100 Subject: Cryptographic privacy protection in TCPA In-Reply-To: <0b9f4829b10ce20154d1cca436a26860@aarg.net>; from remailer@aarg.net on Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 03:56:09PM -0700 References: <0b9f4829b10ce20154d1cca436a26860@aarg.net> Message-ID: <20020818165856.A991609@exeter.ac.uk> With Brands digital credentials (or Chaums credentials) another approach is to make the endorsement key pair and certificate the anonymous credential. That way you can use the endorsement key and certificate directly rather than having to obtain (blinded) identity certificates from a privacy CA and trust the privacy CA not to issue identity certificates without seeing a corresponding endorsement credential. However the idea with the identity certificates is that you can use them once only and keep fetching new ones to get unlinkable anonymity, or you can re-use them a bit to get pseudonymity where you might use a different psuedonym for a different service where you are anyway otherwise linkable to a given service. With Brands credentials the smart card setting allows you to have more compact and computationally cheap control of the credential from within a smart card which you could apply to the TPM/SCP. So you can fit more (unnamed) pseudonym credentials on the TPM to start with. You could perhaps more simply rely on Brands credential lending discouraging feature (ability to encode arbitrary values in the credential private key) to prevent break once virtualize anywhere. For discarding pseudonyms and when you want to use lots of pseudonyms (one-use unlinkable) you need to refresh the certificates you could use the refresh protocol which allows you to exchange a credential for a new one without trusting the privacy CA for your privacy. Unfortunately I think you again are forced to trust the privacy CA not to create fresh virtualized credentials. Perhaps there would be someway to have the privacy CA be a different CA to the endorsement CA and for the privacy CA to only be able to refresh existing credentials issued by the endorsement CA, but not to create fresh ones. Or perhaps some restriction could be placed on what the privacy CA could do of the form if the privacy CA issued new certificates it would reveal it's private key. "Also relevant is An Efficient System for Non-transferable Anonymous Credentials with Optional Anonymity Revocation", Jan Camenisch and Anna Lysyanskaya, Eurocrypt 01 http://eprint.iacr.org/2001/019/ These credentials allow the user to do unlinkable multi-show without involving a CA. They are somewhat less efficient than Chaum or Brands credentials though. But for this application does this removes the need to trusting a CA, or even have a CA: the endorsement key and credential can be inserted by the manufacturer, can be used indefinitely many times, and are not linkable. > A secondary requirement is for some kind of revocation in the case > of misuse. As you point out unlinkable anonymity tends to complicate revocation. I think Camenisch's optional anonymity revocation has similar properties in allowing a designated entity to link credentials. Another less "TTP-based" approach to unlinkable but revocable credentials is Stubblebine's, Syverson and Goldschlag, "Unlinkable Serial Transactions", ACM Trans on Info Systems, 1999: http://www.stubblebine.com/99tissec-ust.pdf (It's quite simple you just have to present and relinquish a previous pseudonym credential to get a new credential; if the credential is due to be revoked you will not get a fresh credential.) I think I would define away the problem of local breaks. I mean the end-user does own their own hardware, and if they do break it you can't detect it anyway. If it's anything like playstation mod-chips some proportion of the population would in fact would do this. May be 1-5% or whatever. I think it makes sense to just live with this, and of course not make it illegal. Credentials which are shared are easier to revoke -- knowledge of the private keys typically will render most schemes linkable and revocable. This leaves only online lending which is anyway harder to prevent. Adam On Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 03:56:09PM -0700, AARG!Anonymous wrote: > Here are some more thoughts on how cryptography could be used to > enhance user privacy in a system like TCPA. Even if the TCPA group > is not receptive to these proposals, it would be useful to have an > understanding of the security issues. And the same issues arise in > many other kinds of systems which use certificates with some degree > of anonymity, so the discussion is relevant even beyond TCPA. --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From nai at nai.rsc01.com Mon Aug 19 05:34:11 2002 From: nai at nai.rsc01.com (Network Associates) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 05:34:11 -0700 Subject: PGP Corp. Purchases PGP Desktop Encryption and Wireless Product Message-ID: Lines from NET August 19, 2002 Dear Customer, Today we are pleased to announce that PGP Corporation, a newly formed, venture-funded security company, has acquired the PGP desktop encryption and wireless product lines from Network Associates. As you know, prior to placing the products into maintenance mode, we were actively looking for a buyer that would continue the development and support of the technology. Network Associates has retained products developed using PGPsdk including McAfee E-Business Server for encrypted server-to-server file transfer, McAfee Desktop Firewall and McAfee VPN Client. These products will remain a part of Network Associates� existing product portfolio and we will continue to develop them to meet your security needs. PGP Corporation has acquired PGPmail, PGPfile, PGPdisk, PGPwireless, PGPadmin and PGPkeyserver encryption software products for Win32 and Macintosh, PGPsdk encryption software development kit, and PGP Corporate Desktop for Macintosh. In addition to the technology, PGP Corporation has acquired all worldwide customer license agreements and technical support obligations. To ensure a seamless transition, Network Associates will work with PGP Corporation to support PGP customers through October 26, 2002. PGP Corporation will contact you shortly with details on its plans and product direction. We trust that you will have continued success with the PGP desktop and wireless encryption products through PGP Corporation. Network Associates appreciates your business and we value our continued relationship across our remaining product lines. Best Regards, Sandra England Executive Vice President, Business Development and Strategic Research Network Associates **************************************************************************************************** You have received this message because you are a subscriber to the Network Associates Web sites. To unsubscribe, please follow the instructions at the end of this message. This information update is available at no charge to all registered users of Network Associates Web site. * To change your email address, send a reply to this email address and to subscribe at nai.com with the words, "change-address" in the subject line. In the body of the message include your old and new email addresses with the original message. Use the following format for email changes: OLD: enduser at olddomain.com NEW: Joseph_User at newdomain.com ______________________________________________________________________ This message was sent by Network Associates, Inc. using Responsys Interact (TM). If you prefer not to receive future e-mail from Network Associates, Inc.: http://nai.rsc01.net/servlet/optout?gHpgJDWWBEkHoFpINJDJhtE0 To view our permission marketing policy: http://www.rsvp0.net --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From rah at shipwright.com Mon Aug 19 05:58:45 2002 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 08:58:45 -0400 Subject: PGP Corp. Purchases PGP Desktop Encryption and Wireless Product Lines from NET Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text From remailer at remailer.xganon.com Mon Aug 19 08:20:18 2002 From: remailer at remailer.xganon.com (Anonymous) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 10:20:18 -0500 Subject: Signing as one member of a set of keys Message-ID: <27086e7b67e31982ea9e9b6c22448da4@remailer.xganon.com> > > *** COULD SOMEONE PLEASE FOLLOW THE STEPS ABOVE AND PUT THE ringsig.c, > > ringsign, ringver, AND sigring.pgp FILES ON A WEB PAGE SO THAT PEOPLE > > CAN DOWNLOAD THEM WITHOUT HAVING TO GO THROUGH ALL THESE STEPS? *** > > Once it works, I'll happily do that, but... > > > 6. Finally, the verification step: run the ringver perl script, giving the > > PGP key file created in step 5 as an argument, and giving it the ringsig.c > > file as standard input: > > > > ./ringver sigring.pgp < ringsig.c > > > > This should print the message "Good signature". > > ben at scuzzy:~/tmp/multisign$ ./ringver pubring.pkr < testwhole > ERROR: Bad signature Could you post the files anyway on a web page, then the author can check them against his copies and see which are corrupted? From ben at algroup.co.uk Mon Aug 19 03:49:13 2002 From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 11:49:13 +0100 Subject: Signing as one member of a set of keys References: Message-ID: <3D60CD29.3080904@algroup.co.uk> Anonymous wrote: > Steps to verify the "ring signature" file (note: you must have the openssl > library installed): > > > 1. Save http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.2002.08.05-2002.08.11/msg00221.html, > as text, to the file ringsig.c. Delete the paragraph of explanation, and/or any > HTML junk, so the file starts with: > > /* Implementation of ring signatures from > * http://theory.lcs.mit.edu/~rivest/RivestShamirTauman-HowToLeakASecret.pdf > * by Rivest, Shamir and Tauman > > and it ends with: > > lPglqmmy3p4D+psNU1rlNv6yH/L0PgcuW7taVpbopjl4HLuJdWcKHJlXish3D/jb > eoQ856fYFZ/omGiO9x1D0BsnGFLZVWob4OIZRzO/Pc49VIhFy5NsV2zuozStId89 > [...] > */ > > > 2. The "[...]" above is where a remailer caused some of the signature > to be stripped out. Replace the last few lines of ringsig.c with the > text from > http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.2002.08.05-2002.08.11/msg00306.html. > This has the lines from the END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK line onward. > The last lines of the ringsig.c file should be: > > BjHTDH0VZeu3IxUFh37w2fIEehL8WrXvCoCMFnd1/bnn/qI/STXgg6as579/yBIJ > nJra7Ceru4q4wUssK79T6SdOM6wcvVg96ub4UOTaPO4wYhhadCbLFpl3tPfTLceb > */ > > > 3. Compile ringsig.c using the openssl library, to form an executable file > "ringsig". Try running ringsig and you will get a usage message. > > > 4. Get the two perl scripts from > http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.2002.08.05-2002.08.11/msg00313.html > and save them as "ringver" and "ringsign". > > > 5. Run the ringsig.c file through the "pgp" program to create a PGP key > ring file from the PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK data. With the command line > version of PGP 2.6.2 the command is: > > pgp -ka ringsig.c sigring.pgp > > This will also show you the set of keys, one of which made the signature. > > *** COULD SOMEONE PLEASE FOLLOW THE STEPS ABOVE AND PUT THE ringsig.c, > ringsign, ringver, AND sigring.pgp FILES ON A WEB PAGE SO THAT PEOPLE > CAN DOWNLOAD THEM WITHOUT HAVING TO GO THROUGH ALL THESE STEPS? *** Once it works, I'll happily do that, but... > 6. Finally, the verification step: run the ringver perl script, giving the > PGP key file created in step 5 as an argument, and giving it the ringsig.c > file as standard input: > > ./ringver sigring.pgp < ringsig.c > > This should print the message "Good signature". ben at scuzzy:~/tmp/multisign$ ./ringver pubring.pkr < testwhole ERROR: Bad signature (Incidentally, this was the procedure I followed in the first place, except I manually broke the file into parts, rather than using ringver). I still suggest sending the relevant file as an attachment, so it doesn't get mangled in transit. I wonder how many people are now convinced I didn't write this code? ;-) Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ Available for contract work. "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From tcmay at got.net Mon Aug 19 12:21:58 2002 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 12:21:58 -0700 Subject: Startups, Bubbles, and Unemployment Message-ID: I read with interest the comments on the "why are so many applied cryptographers unemployed?" thread. I know a _lot_ of unemployed folks. Or folks looking for more than "part time consulting" work. Lots of issues, lots of possible reasons for the high unemployment rate of applied cryptographers: * The collapse or sale or downsizing of several companies which formerly employed a fair number of Cypherpunks: PGP (used to employ about 6-10 list members that I know of), ZKS (maybe 5-8 active list memmbers, IIRC), C2Net in the 1994-97 years, Counterpane (several list members), and even Netscape (three list members, brothers, represented the "security department" for a while). This kind of collapse or downsizing dumps a lot of the same kind of people on the market. * End to crazy ideas of "let's do a start-up!" * An example. Here's part of an e-mail I received recently from someone who proposed that I give him some money for some kind of start up or charityware project in an area of interest to both of us. I have changed the details for obvious reasons: "I had this vague hope that you might be interested in throwing some money at an interesting problem in FOO to see if something worthwhile might result with a view to seeing if it could produce money later. Nothing so risky as a startup - a startup might make money, whereas what I was thinking of would be absolutely guaranteed a ROI of 0%. No risk there :-) Hopefully a chance of some fun and benefit to humanity though." (This writer, an acquaintance of mine, has been trying for several years to get various projects going. Sad to say, his very words above indicate just how flaky his ideas are. He thinks others will fund projects as a kind of charityware. Given the loaded cost of people these days, even with reduced expectations in this current downturn, it hasn't even been possible for billionaires like Paul Allen to fund projects successfully. Many examples exist, even of some crypto startups, where tens of millions of dollars went into salaries, benefits, perks, facilities, with essentially nothing to show for the expenditures. More on this point later.) *Back in the 1970s and early 80s, high tech start-ups were difficult to do. It took some really good ideas, or at least the departure of a talented group of people who had already developed something. Examples like Sun and Cisco are examples of where the core technology had already been developed (Stanford, in both cases) and where the companies could begin to SELL PRODUCTS almost immediately. * A company formed at about the time the VC industry was transitioning from "hard money" (hard to fund a start up) to "easy money" was RSA Data Security. And though it owned a much more valuable property than most recent crypto startups have owned, it almost went under a couple of times. Read Levy's "Crypto" for some details of how it almost failed in the late 80s and again in the early 90s. * I've seen a bunch of "applied crypto" companies during this recent Internet bubble where the intellectual property is far, far less compelling than "RSA" was. I don't mean to insult any of my friends here, but the notion with a lot of these companies seems to have been "We're young, we're Cypherpunks, let's raise some money, get a nice office space with our espresso bar and hot tub, hire our friends, and become rich." (This is perhaps too harsh a summary. But I'll let it stand as a reference point.) * There are still roles for start ups. But I think some really good ideas are needed. Just "riding the wave" is no longer working...it worked during the bubble years, for a bunch of companies...most of which are now greatly downsized or gone completely. * Don't quit your day job. And if you don't have a day job, get one (assuming you need some money...some folks have independent sources of some amount of money). (Note that during the tough period for RSA, most of the key technical people had other jobs, as professors, etc. I think Rivest took one year off from MIT to consult full-time for RSADSI, but mostly they had other jobs the whole time. Only after the revenues began consistently flowing were a lot of full-time people hired. During the bubble, of course, they staffed up to high levels, expanded, got involved in other ventures, etc. And Bidzos, of course, rode the bubble by co-founding and being Chairman of Verisign.) * Doing things in a garage is more than just a quaint image. It means "doing things without _any_ burn rate." It means having a day job. * The notion that a group will raise ten million bucks, rent expensive facilities, hire their friends, and THEN get to work on product development (or, more often, playing around with potential ideas), is just not plausible any longer. * especially dangerous is the seductive idea that one can take a broad idea, seek funding, be the CEO, and then "hire a bunch of guys like Ian Goldberg." Note: This is NOT directed at ZKS, which actually DID hire a guy like Ian Goldberg! Instead, what I mean is that I've heard more than a few people say that this is what they hope or plan to do with their crypto startups, that they hope (or "hoped," past tense, as they all seem to have abandoned these ideas now) to raise some VC money and THEN hire brilliant applied cryptographers to actually build the product. * Well, this business model ain't likely to work. For lots of reasons. First, product development in a startup has _always_ been an iffy proposition. (I frankly cannot think of any good examples where it has worked. Most successful products were developed by very small groups, or already developed. Yahoo, for example, was already running out of Jerry Yang's bedroom. Netscape was Mosaic was developed by a small group (Marc A. and others) at Fermilab, I've already mentioned Sun and Cisco, and there are other examples. I could make a catalog of what was developed where...left as an exercise for you to think about, or comment on in replies to this thread.) The second reason this business model doesn't seem to work is that there's a major shortage of Ian Goldbergs out there! A lot of "applied cryptography" people are actually not very skilled at coding, it appears. A lot of "applied cryptographers" are what used to be called "systems analysts" (in fact, the parallels are eerie). The third and probably most important reason is that a "good idea" is not enough. Products that people actually pay money for is the raison d'etre of companies. Whether the products are widgets or programs or services (though beware of service companies, as the money is usually not there), a company MUST sell something. A lot of folks seem to think companies are just cool places to play around with ideas at. (Side note: I witnessed a couple of "pre-bubble" companies which, in my opinion, didn't fully understand the importance of getting a product out very early and having real revenues to both fund further development and to act as a sanity check (feedback) on their ideas. They each burned through many millions of dollars in the 1988-93 period and both ultimately vanished. Ironically, they were pursuing ideas which lie at the foundations of modern e-commerce and the Net.) * If I were to fund a company (don't even ask!), I would look for several characteristics: -- a really good idea that could (could, not certainly will, as there is always risk) lead to actual sales of actual products -- a small group of people who have actually demonstrated some form of the product and who may already have a prototype, with money only needed to finalize the product and get it out on the market -- a group of people who are NOT each expecting $120K or more in loaded salaries so they can then begin to think about how to apply their cool ideas to some undefined market or product (high burn rates have killed many of the companies I've alluded to) -- people who have been working for nothing, who have day jobs, who have developed the idea or product with their own money and effort * To reiterate the obvious, the absolute worst approach is to just think that putting a bunch of Cypherpunks or other people together will somehow, miraculously, lead to a product being developed. It didn't work with Chaum, it didn't work with Xanadu, it didn't work with ZKS (in the original form), and it failed completely with Paul Allen's "Interval" project. (The oft-cited example of Xerox PARC is an interesting one to look at. I'll do that in another post, perhaps. I knew a lot of the folks at PARC.) So, I think a whole lot of technical people are unemployed because of the bursting of that crazy bubble we all know about. Not too surprising. And that bubble gave a lot of people the foolish idea that the product cycle is "Raise money, hire friends, spend a couple of years planning a product, do an IPO, retire rich." (One of the reasons for the bubble was related to this: a lot of high tech start-ups were "hollowed-out" by founders and early technical people getting out while the stock was skyrocketing, leaving only the spear carriers behind to try to get a product out the door. One guy I know was a core technical founder of one of the early Internet auction companies--not E-Bay, by the way. He sold his stock in the company in 1998-99, as it was hitting $100 a share and moved to a ranch in Montana with the profits. The company collapsed, for various reasons, was acquired, the acquirer also collapse, the stocks were delisted, and the remaining assets were picked up for small change by another auction company.) * As others in this thread have noted, most corporate "crypto experts" are mostly just product integrators and bug fixers. Anybody in a large company who is the "crypto expert" is probably just the guy shopping for whatever products are out there (we know that homegrown crypto is almost a bad idea anyway, so this is good) and then integrating them with the company's e-mail and Website products. And those products are almost always going to be whatever Microsoft and Verisign and others are selling. Boring, really. To close on a less bleak note, this is a fine time for people to "get back to basics." The world-changing implications of strong crypto are yet to come, and at least some of you will likely be involved in companies which both change the world and which make you very, very rich. Good luck, --Tim May From bbs at http.net Sun Aug 18 21:37:04 2002 From: bbs at http.net (=?gb2312?q?=F4=E4=B4=E4.com_club_) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 12:37:04 +0800 Subject: =?gb2312?q?=BF=EC=BF=EC=BC=D3=C8=EB=F4=E4=B4=E4.com_club=A3=AC=BE=AB=C3=C0=F4=E4=B4=E4?= Message-ID: <200208190439.g7J4dSJ68789@locust.minder.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 957 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Mon Aug 19 13:29:03 2002 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 13:29:03 -0700 Subject: get me the fuck out of oz In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20020819150235.009a1178@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <4D16FA59-B3B2-11D6-9C4B-0050E439C473@got.net> On Monday, August 19, 2002, at 01:02 PM, Wilfred L. Guerin wrote: > death to narnians > death to lookies > death to lambs and sheep > death to nosepickers > death to all others undesirable... > possibly even death to praetorians. > ... > > get me the fuck out of oz, and away from this god forsaken continent. > > advise ultra-heavy response. > > I hear the ukraine has nice dark portallous places and devices? Only a > suggestion. Any options other than south are viable. > > toodlez. > I've been getting your "special mailings" (i.e., I'm on some list you have separate from Cypherpunks) for a few months now. Whatever contributions you might have made several years ago (I forget), your weird writings of the last several months mark you as a loon. Please remove me from your "special mailings" and please seek professional help. (If in fact you are even the "Wilfred Guerin" of several years ago, as opposed to being the Oz-dweller who used to bombard us with so many of his similar rants.) --Tim May From Wilfred at Cryogen.com Mon Aug 19 13:02:35 2002 From: Wilfred at Cryogen.com (Wilfred L. Guerin) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 15:02:35 -0500 Subject: get me the fuck out of oz Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020819150235.009a1178@127.0.0.1> death to narnians death to lookies death to lambs and sheep death to nosepickers death to all others undesirable... possibly even death to praetorians. ... get me the fuck out of oz, and away from this god forsaken continent. advise ultra-heavy response. I hear the ukraine has nice dark portallous places and devices? Only a suggestion. Any options other than south are viable. toodlez. -Wilfred Lee Guerin Wilfred at Cryogen.com From admin at nationaldatatransport.com Mon Aug 19 15:28:56 2002 From: admin at nationaldatatransport.com (National Data Transport) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 15:28:56 Subject: Dedicated Server for Adult Web Site Hosting Message-ID: <200208191925.g7JJPAAM024503@ak47.algebra.com> National Data Transport now has available certain servers dedicated for Adult Web Site Hosting. WE OFFER **FAST ACCESS **HIGH SPEED PAGE LOADING **UNLIMITED PAGES **AFFORDABLE PRICING Please contact us for a quote. National Data Transport phone: 336-841-5156 fax: 336-841-1126 email: admin at nationaldatatransport.com thanks and have a nice day. ============================================ this message is intended to be received by a business. if you received this message in error, please see below. if you would like to be removed from our mailing list, just write remove on the subject line and return to us. From rah at shipwright.com Mon Aug 19 12:41:25 2002 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 15:41:25 -0400 Subject: He's Baaaack! Message-ID: Yee-freakin'-hah! Wherein Dr. C., freed from clutches of the WAVEoids, resumes the fight for Truth, Justice, and the PGP Way... Outstanding. Congratulations, Jon. Go get 'em. Cheers, RAH ------ http://www.pgp.com/cto.php CONTACT US | CAREERS PGP Corporation Products Purchase Partners Support International About Us PRODUCTS Letter from CEO Letter from CTO Customer Transition Information Perpetual License Announcing PGP 8 Schedule of PGP Events "The report of my death has been greatly exaggerated." -- Mark Twain It is with great pleasure that I get to write this letter. As you can see from our Media Release and announcement of PGP 8.0, PGP is alive and very well, with substantive plans for the future. There is a FAQ elsewhere on the web site that describes many of the nuts and bolts details about the new PGP Corporation. As the CTO, I know that we have a large, technically savvy user base that cares deeply about our products. This letter is for you. As in Phil's CEO letter, you will see we are focusing on three themes - continuity, relationship, and innovation. First of all continuity - you will be glad to hear that we will publish source code. This is very important to us. It's very important to our investors, too. They understand that one of the main reasons people trust PGP is that its source is available. Our forthcoming source release will be for PGP 8. We also believe in the OpenPGP protocols and standards. We actively support the IETF as well as other organizations that help spread the use of the technology. There will also be a freeware release of PGP 8. As always, you'll be able to use PGP free for non-commercial use. However, if you use PGP for commercial purposes -- which means that you're using it for something that makes you money -- then please buy it. Second, about relationship. Much of the passion in the worldwide crypto community comes from strongly held beliefs that quality crypto such as PGP is necessary and important. For our joint relationship to work, we need a fair exchange of value so that we can continue building products with the quality you've come to expect from PGP. If you think what we are doing -- and how we are doing it -- is important, and you're using our technology for your profit, please pay for it. This is especially important to us because we publish our source code. We have been told that publishing source code and freeware leads to unpaid software licenses. Help us prove the cynics wrong. Third, about innovation. We have a lot of ideas about how we can make PGP better, and we hope you'll find them as exciting as we do. These new technologies will start showing up in less than a year, focused on improving PGP's ease of use. I look forward to discussing these with you and getting your input. Thank you for being interested enough in PGP's ongoing success to read this far. I hope you're looking forward to PGP's future as much as we are. Jon Callas CTO PGP Corporation Copyright ) 2002 PGP Corporation. All Rights Reserved. Privacy Statement -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz Sun Aug 18 22:28:39 2002 From: pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 17:28:39 +1200 (NZST) Subject: Good survey article on crypto hardware Message-ID: <200208190528.RAA196174@ruru.cs.auckland.ac.nz> There's a good article on software and hardware for reconfigurable computer systems (e.g. FPGA's) in the June 2002 ACM Computing Surveys for people who are interested in that sort of thing. This is the sort of hardware which is often used for crypto when a full ASIC isn't economically viable (one of those combined PPC+FPGA cores would be quite interesting for crypto use). Peter. From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Mon Aug 19 17:53:51 2002 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 17:53:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Startups, Bubbles, and Unemployment In-Reply-To: from "Tim May" at Aug 19, 2002 12:21:58 PM Message-ID: <200208200053.g7K0rpp21097@artifact.psychedelic.net> Tim philosophizes: > I read with interest the comments on the "why are so many applied > cryptographers unemployed?" thread. > I know a _lot_ of unemployed folks. Or folks looking for more than "part > time consulting" work. > Lots of issues, lots of possible reasons for the high unemployment rate > of applied cryptographers: > (This writer, an acquaintance of mine, has been trying for several years > to get various projects going. Sad to say, his very words above indicate > just how flaky his ideas are. He thinks others will fund projects as a > kind of charityware. Such people can be greatly helped by giving them an hour of your time, and repeating the words "but what's the product?" every 90 seconds as they are trying to talk. > "We're young, we're Cypherpunks, let's raise some money, get a nice > office space with our espresso bar and hot tub, hire our friends, and > become rich." There's nothing fundamentally wrong with this approach, as long as you are being paid to think about something, with no expectation that a product will be produced or sold. "We're young. We're Cypherpunks. Let's find a research firm with a pool, tennis courts, and free Coke, and get the government to pay us for a few years to think about the cryptographic software needs of the Rehabilitation Services Administration." Where this model fails is when people want you to pay them to sit around the pool and think up some product that is going to put Intel and Microsoft out of business and make everyone rich. Of course, only people with no clue think in such terms, or expect someone else to fund their lifestyle while they sit around "thinking off" all day. Nice work if you can get it. > Note: This is NOT directed at ZKS, which actually DID hire a guy like > Ian Goldberg! And coasted for quite a long time on Ian Goldberg's reputation capital before the petard exploded and hoisted them. Of course, the fact that the actual users of the service were saying things like "it's slow", "it sucks", "it blows", might have been a great hint that it was not destined to become the next AOL/Time Warner. > The third and probably most important reason is that a "good idea" is > not enough. Products that people actually pay money for is the raison > d'etre of companies. Some of the most exciting, stimulating software engineering projects you can imagine are things no one in their right mind would ever want to buy. Yet, it's startling how often "fun to work on" rises to the top of why a project should be done. > A lot of folks seem to think companies are just cool places to play > around with ideas at. As the VP for R&D at Boeing once put it, "This isn't Boeing University." Most of my friends who are rich and retired now did it not by inventing any wonder product. They did it by taking any job that was secure and paid reasonably well, living on a shoestring, putting their money into rental properties, fixing them up, renting them out, and reselling them. A few lived on a shoestring, and put all their money into Fidelity Magellan before it was a household word, or put their money into stocks, or whatever, but you get the idea. After you're loaded, then you can tinker in your garage without having to ask anyone to fund your hobby. I worry when people with niche skills bemoan high unemployment in their niche. It's a very bad time for Applied Cryptographers, Smalltalk-80 programmers, Algol-68 compiler bug fixers, Lisp Machine operators, or whatever, they whine. Again, take any job that pays well. Live on a shoestring. Do something reasonably intelligent with your money. If someone wanders by who has the next wonder product already developed, and people are beating a path to their door to buy it, by all means pick up some stock pre-IPO. There's absolutely nothing wrong with being a wealthy McDonalds franchisee whose hobby is Applied Cryptography, instead of a poor unemployed Applied Cryptographer. To Summarize: 1. Hobbies are things we do for fun. Jobs are things we do because they provide the world with a necessary good or service. Don't make the mistake of thinking the world owes you a job that is also your hobby. It's nice, but it rarely happens. 2. Take any job that pays well. Live on a shoestring. Do something intelligent with the leftover money. 3. Invest some money in already developed products that look like they may become the Next Big Thing. 4. Don't expect anyone to pay you to sit around and figure out what the Next Big Thing is going to be. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From ben at algroup.co.uk Mon Aug 19 10:11:10 2002 From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 18:11:10 +0100 Subject: Signing as one member of a set of keys References: <27086e7b67e31982ea9e9b6c22448da4@remailer.xganon.com> Message-ID: <3D6126AE.4040402@algroup.co.uk> Anonymous wrote: >>>*** COULD SOMEONE PLEASE FOLLOW THE STEPS ABOVE AND PUT THE ringsig.c, >>>ringsign, ringver, AND sigring.pgp FILES ON A WEB PAGE SO THAT PEOPLE >>>CAN DOWNLOAD THEM WITHOUT HAVING TO GO THROUGH ALL THESE STEPS? *** >> >>Once it works, I'll happily do that, but... >> >> >>>6. Finally, the verification step: run the ringver perl script, giving the >>>PGP key file created in step 5 as an argument, and giving it the ringsig.c >>>file as standard input: >>> >>>./ringver sigring.pgp < ringsig.c >>> >>>This should print the message "Good signature". >> >>ben at scuzzy:~/tmp/multisign$ ./ringver pubring.pkr < testwhole >>ERROR: Bad signature > > > Could you post the files anyway on a web page, then the author can check > them against his copies and see which are corrupted? OK. Coming soon. Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ Available for contract work. "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Aug 20 00:12:40 2002 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 00:12:40 -0700 Subject: get me the fuck out of oz In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20020819150235.009a1178@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20020820001141.049a37d0@idiom.com> Click your heels together three times and say "There's No Place Like Home" and you'll be back in bed in Kansas. And yer little dog, too.... From jason at lunkwill.org Mon Aug 19 18:58:50 2002 From: jason at lunkwill.org (Jason Holt) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 01:58:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Data Security class programming project Message-ID: I'm working on designing the programming projects for a data security class. What do you think of this one? I love its intrinsic irony, but can we actually get away with requiring it for a university class? I mean, Elcomsoft really is in court for this. My University is unfortunately not the type of organization to stand at the forefront and protect our civil rights. -J ------- DRM Lab ------- Options ------- * Make the lab open-ended - they get to pick what to break and how, as long as they don't use a pre-packaged tool. DVDs, CDs, .WMA, etc. Objective --------- To demonstrate the fundamental futility of current attempts to prevent unauthorized copying of published works. Requirements ------------ _Here_ you can find a copy of Dmitry Sklyarov's Defcon slides in Adobe's eBook format. They were created with the eBookPro compiler, advertised as "the only software in the universe that makes your information virtually 100% burglarproof!". Extract all text from the slides using the method of your choice and turn in the resulting text file. It needs no special formatting. From cornerstone at celebrity.com Mon Aug 19 09:58:47 2002 From: cornerstone at celebrity.com (cornerstone) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 02:58:47 +1000 Subject: proclaims Message-ID: <200208191731.g7JHViUT004342@celebrity.com> THOUSANDS of pics of HARDCORE BEASTIALITY with full length downloadable movies http://www.supremewebhosting-online.com/users/l/lisa/f/ horny HORSE FUCKERS who do anything http://www.supremewebhosting-online.com/users/l/lisa/f/ sluts who drink DOG and HORSE CUM Your wildest fantasies have come to life with DOG GOAT SHEEP HORSE EEL fucking and sucking http://www.supremewebhosting-online.com/users/l/lisa/f/ CLICK NOW http://www.supremewebhosting-online.com/users/l/lisa/f/ To be removed: http://200.38.128.154/ efficiently From jya at pipeline.com Tue Aug 20 07:35:11 2002 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 07:35:11 -0700 Subject: Declan McCullagh on politics and DMCA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bear in mind that Declan has always favored the copyright industry, after all that fits his ambition to be a star in that field, not that he is alone in seeking media celebrity by seducing others with the allure of attention and fame. He drops way too many names not to come across as an accomplished, striving star-sucker. Declan covers issues in a balanced way, so the story always goes, though the balance is always tipped toward those he wants to flatter -- which is toward the winners side, the bigger the winners the more likely the scale will be tipped by Times magazine speak of featuring the stars which mesmerize star-struck readers and, not least, publishers and editors and the copyright bandits which thrive on celebrity mongering -- fabrication, gloss, lies, deception, condescension toward the nobodies which buy their dreck, a la Waterboy Valenti et al. Promoting winners over losers is a giant industry, the American way of doing business. Sorry to say, Nomen, this is not courageous reporting, it is formulaic suck-up. This is not to demean Declan as a person, he's "a nice guy," -- he slurs me condescendingly similarly -- only to note what he does for who he works for is vile, pretentious, not at all objective. In that hired-gun demeanor he is a professional, if you know what I demean. At 08:30 AM 8/20/2002 +0200, you wrote: >Congratulations to Declan McCullagh for two recent articles which >challenge the conventional wisdom of the cyber rights crowd. > >Last week it was http://news.com.com/2010-1071-949275.html?tag=politech, >arguing the futility of political participation in a world where >government is dominated by powerful economic interests. Instead he >quotes cypherpunks Adam Back and Lance Cottrell to the effect that a >better approach is to change the terms of the debate by writing code >that creates technology. > >(Bizarrely, he refers to "the motto of the Cypherpunks" while managing >to actually avoid saying "cypherpunks write code". Maybe we can blame >the editor for that omission.) > >Now at http://news.com.com/2010-12-950229.html?tag=fd_lede, Declan steps >into the viper's nest by coming out against DMCA sensationalism on the >part of the EFF. He refers to "overly aggressive advocacy" by the EFF, >and provides quotes describing their efforts as "fear-mongering". > >He quotes Orin Kerr, law professor at GWU: > >"Opponents of the DMCA want to dramatize its effects, so they want people >to believe that the law is incredibly broad," Kerr says. "If the public >believes that the DMCA is stopping Professor Felten and other researchers >from conducting legitimate research, then that is a major victory for >opponents of the law." > >All this is anathema to the slashdot crowd, of course. The last thing >they want to hear is that DMCA isn't as bad as they've been told. > >Again, kudos to Declan for taking a stance which is sure to be unpopular >and controversial among his supporters. I may have to take back all >the nasty things I have said about him over the years. Now let's see >what he has to say about Palladium... From nobody at dizum.com Mon Aug 19 23:30:04 2002 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 08:30:04 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Declan McCullagh on politics and DMCA Message-ID: Congratulations to Declan McCullagh for two recent articles which challenge the conventional wisdom of the cyber rights crowd. Last week it was http://news.com.com/2010-1071-949275.html?tag=politech, arguing the futility of political participation in a world where government is dominated by powerful economic interests. Instead he quotes cypherpunks Adam Back and Lance Cottrell to the effect that a better approach is to change the terms of the debate by writing code that creates technology. (Bizarrely, he refers to "the motto of the Cypherpunks" while managing to actually avoid saying "cypherpunks write code". Maybe we can blame the editor for that omission.) Now at http://news.com.com/2010-12-950229.html?tag=fd_lede, Declan steps into the viper's nest by coming out against DMCA sensationalism on the part of the EFF. He refers to "overly aggressive advocacy" by the EFF, and provides quotes describing their efforts as "fear-mongering". He quotes Orin Kerr, law professor at GWU: "Opponents of the DMCA want to dramatize its effects, so they want people to believe that the law is incredibly broad," Kerr says. "If the public believes that the DMCA is stopping Professor Felten and other researchers from conducting legitimate research, then that is a major victory for opponents of the law." All this is anathema to the slashdot crowd, of course. The last thing they want to hear is that DMCA isn't as bad as they've been told. Again, kudos to Declan for taking a stance which is sure to be unpopular and controversial among his supporters. I may have to take back all the nasty things I have said about him over the years. Now let's see what he has to say about Palladium... From frissell at panix.com Tue Aug 20 08:36:43 2002 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 11:36:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Selling Privacy for ETC Message-ID: A Faraday Cage for your EZPass: EZShield.com EZPass is an Electronic Toll Collection (ETC) system used in the Northeast. A small white box is attached to your windshield and is queried by radios in passing toll booths. Your account is debited for the toll. Your account lists all the booths passed and when so it can be very useful for law enforcement and civil attorneys (including domestic relations lawyers). EZPass has already been featured on an episode of Law and Order. In addition since the system is protected by weak or no encryption, attackers with radios could extract some information by querying your EZPass. Perhaps duplicating it to steal tolls from you. The EZShield is a little box with a drawer to hold your EZPass. According to the photo, it doesn't increase the EZPass form factor by much. What you are supposed to do in open the drawer to expose your EZPass only when you want to use it and keep it enclosed when you don't. The interesting thing is that EZShield's sellers believe that there is enough interest in a technological privacy fix that they are willing to advertise it on mass media. I heard it just before the Rush Limbaugh show on WABC in NYC. -- Posted by Duncan Frissell to The Technoptimist at 8/19/2002 1:52:02 PM Powered by Blogger Pro From schear at lvcm.com Tue Aug 20 12:12:07 2002 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:12:07 -0700 Subject: Bankrupt Digicash Made $481K in 1999 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020820121018.026ffd08@pop3.lvcm.com> At 12:33 PM 8/20/2002 -0700, you wrote: >Digicash 1999 IRS forms: > > http://cryptome.org/digicash-481k.htm Perhaps its my ignorance, but doesn't this form merely mean DC paid the Chaum Family Trust $481K, not that the company made $481K? steve From Wilfred at Cryogen.com Tue Aug 20 10:25:47 2002 From: Wilfred at Cryogen.com (Wilfred L. Guerin) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:25:47 -0500 Subject: [WLG] Hostile Threats, Wilfred Lee Guerin Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020820122547.00b547b8@127.0.0.1> Too all recipients: I have been threatened in a hostile manner on numerous occasions over the past recent time period by numerous family members, whos associations are extensive and include various undesirable parties both in New Orleans and throughout the region. There are currently family members From jya at pipeline.com Tue Aug 20 12:33:58 2002 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:33:58 -0700 Subject: Bankrupt Digicash Made $481K in 1999 Message-ID: Digicash 1999 IRS forms: http://cryptome.org/digicash-481k.htm From shavednwet at we-love-porn.com Tue Aug 20 06:55:16 2002 From: shavednwet at we-love-porn.com (Shaved N Wet) Date: 20 Aug 2002 13:55:16 -0000 Subject: slipery Wet shaved pussy ! Message-ID: <20020820135516.19872.qmail@mail.we-love-porn.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 780 bytes Desc: not available URL: From schear at lvcm.com Tue Aug 20 15:37:56 2002 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 15:37:56 -0700 Subject: For Telecom Workers, Burst Of Bubble Takes Heavy Toll (was: employment market for applied cryptographers?) Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020820153457.06118d70@pop3.lvcm.com> [Because of its relevance and since most list members are probably not WSJ subscribers, I've taken the liberty of posting the entire article. sds] > From the Wall Street Journal -- > >For Telecom Workers, Burst Of Bubble Takes Heavy Toll >By REBECCA BLUMENSTEIN > >RICHARDSON, Texas -- Two years ago, J. Michael Dugan spread the word to >his fellow optical engineers in North Texas that he was starting a company >that could make them all rich. The telecommunications business was hot, >and optical engineers were the hottest commodities of them all, commanding >big signing bonuses and six-figure salaries. > >Mr. Dugan, a burly Texan with more than 20 years under his belt at the >giant French equipment maker Alcatel SA, was persuasive. So many flocked >to his annual summer party in July 2000 to learn more about Latus >Lightworks that he ran out of food. The start-up took off quickly, hiring >120 employees as the engineers raced to devise ways to squeeze more data >and voice traffic through a hair-thin strand of fiber-optic glass. > >Then the bubble burst. > >A few weeks ago, when all those engineers gathered again in Mr. Dugan's >backyard, it was to commiserate and swap job leads. Ken Maxham, a cheery >59-year-old who comes from a long line of engineers, was worried about his >unemployment benefits running out as his savings dwindle. He had cut back >expenses as much as possible, but basic health insurance costs $750 a >month and his wife was putting off going to the dentist for a toothache. > >David Wolf, who at 37 is one of the youngest optical engineers around, was >counting the days until his second start-up was due to run out of money. >The fresh-faced father of three young children was pruning expenses such >as his daughter's gymnastics lessons and worrying about the future. Mr. >Dugan, whose work as a temporary consultant was about to end, was >contemplating returning to school at age 50. > >And the party was buzzing about a cruel twist of fate: Two of the former >colleagues had just gone head-to-head for one of the few remaining telecom >jobs out there. The one in the more precarious financial position didn't >get it. > >"When I see someone I haven't seen in a while, my first question is, 'Do >you have a job?' " said Bruce Raeside, a 46-year-old Michigan native who >also worked as a Latus engineer. "It's almost like Detroit in the '70s." > >In many ways, it's worse. Like the massive declines in the nation's steel, >oil and automobile industries in decades past, the disintegration of the >telecom business is leaving deep wounds in the U.S. work force. But labor >historians say telecom stands out for the unprecedented speed of the >boom-and-bust cycle. After telecom was deregulated in 1996, it quickly >expanded by some 331,000 jobs before peaking in late 2000. Since the >downturn started, though, companies have announced layoffs that have wiped >out all those new jobs and more -- a total of well over 500,000 workers, >according to a tally by The Wall Street Journal. By contrast, it took two >decades for the ranks of the United Auto Workers to fall to 732,000 from >1.5 million, as the auto industry was forced to become much more efficient >in the face of foreign competition. > >The number of telecom jobs grew faster and has fallen much harder than the >overall job market, according to James Glen, an economist with >Economy.com, a West Chester, Pa., research firm. He says the 12% drop in >telecom jobs is still gaining steam, especially as the rout claims bigger >and bigger companies such as Global Crossing Ltd. and WorldCom Inc. And >the economic and human cost of the telecom bust far exceeds that of the >highly publicized Internet crash, which by and large involved smaller >companies. > >Telecom has turned into one of history's biggest bubbles because so much >money poured into the industry during the stock-market boom, creating some >$470 billion in debt and a vast glut of capacity. Once a sleepy industry >known for its modest growth, telecom took off like a rocket in the late >'90s as companies rushed to lace the world with ultra-fast fiber-optic >networks to carry an expected onslaught of Internet traffic. But after a >frenzy of spending and hiring, it suddenly became clear in mid-2001 that >the Internet wasn't growing nearly as fast as the 1,000-fold annual >increases originally predicted. The huge run-up has now been replaced by a >merciless ride down. Rumors of foreclosures and marital problems have >replaced word of the latest IPO. Some laid-off telecom workers are even >turning up in local homeless shelters. > >So much money was spent buying telecom gear during the frenzy that there >is now seven years' worth of excess inventory, says Lonnie Martin, chief >executive of White Rock Networks, a Richardson start-up that is trying to >hang on. He values the excess supply at some $160 billion. "That is an >awful lot of exuberance to get rid of," he says. > >There are few places where the hangover is more severe than here in the >sun-blasted plains north of Dallas. Back during the boom years, developers >couldn't throw up office buildings fast enough to keep pace with the >demand. Telecom jobs doubled to 90,000 between 1995 and the peak of the >bubble as big names such as Cisco Systems Inc. stormed into town and >companies such as Nortel Networks Corp. quadrupled their work forces. >Money was flowing so freely that countless start-ups emerged from nowhere. >Now, vacancy rates in the area known as the Telecom Corridor have shot up >to 34%. The vast expanses of empty parking lots make the area look like a >corporate ghost town. > >And the layoffs keep coming. While the Latus workers left stable jobs to >join the start-up, they know plenty of colleagues who stayed behind and >lost their jobs anyway. Big suppliers such as Nortel and Alcatel had >already shed half their work forces before WorldCom's collapse. Xalted >Networks Inc. just laid off most of its Texas engineers and issued a press >release saying it's moving its software development to Bangalore, India, >where it plans to hire 70 engineers in a bid to conserve cash. > >Change of Fortune > >The change of fortune is especially jarring to telecom's engineers, many >of whom chose their profession because it promised a stable paycheck and >seemingly limitless growth. Mr. Dugan, who has degrees in physics and >electrical engineering, shifted into telecom after down-sizings in NASA's >space program and the Texas oil industry, where he built support >electronics for the oil diggers. Mr. Raeside came on after surviving >layoffs at semiconductor companies through the 1980s. > >During the boom, no one was more in demand than the eclectic band of >optical engineers who had worked for years in relative obscurity >transmitting millions of calls a second through tiny hairs of glass by >using lasers of light invisible to the human eye. Their value soared in a >climate where any innovation could quickly become the next hot IPO. >Suddenly, companies were paying salaries well over $100,000 to lure top >talent. > >As some of the early start-ups were purchased by bigger companies in deals >that made their founders rich, the walls of the big companies started to >feel a bit confining. Mr. Dugan left Alcatel in January 2000, >contemplating a few offers. He was hanging around his house one February >morning when he was contacted out of the blue by Michael Zadikian, who had >sold his company, Monterey Networks, to Cisco Systems Inc. for $500 >million in 1999. > >Mr. Zadikian had a new plan to launch four start-ups at once to develop a >single system that phone companies could use for all of their needs. He >wanted Mr. Dugan to focus on the so-called long haul, the cross-country >and undersea networks that companies were racing to build. Mr. Dugan >signed on. > >Latus was following in a rich tradition. The former MCI Communications >Inc. started here in the late '70s, using the microwave technology >deployed by Collins Radio to challenge AT&T Corp.'s monopoly. But >microwave towers couldn't be placed more than 35 miles apart because of >the curvature of the earth, leading MCI to push for advances in >fiber-optic technology. In the early '80s, MCI embraced a new technology >that used light waves to transmit calls on one strand of fiber, a signal >that was so strong MCI only needed to install equipment to boost it every >1,000 miles or so. Companies rushed into Richardson to help give MCI a >competitive edge, a customer and supplier relationship that has flourished >for years, but which is now in jeopardy with the collapse of MCI's parent, >WorldCom. > >The goal of Latus was ambitious: to develop a system that could send data >and voice traffic at higher speeds and longer distances than ever before. >Optical networking was all abuzz about a technology called dense wave >division multiplexing that could divide a single strand of fiber into >dozens of channels by beaming different colors of light through it. The >Latus system had 256 different channels, and was designed to go more than >1,200 miles before the signal needed to be boosted again so it could >continue on. > >The company didn't have a name until March, when Mr. Dugan, flying home >from a convention, bought a Latin-English dictionary at an airport and >found the word, "latus," meaning wide, open and expansive. Latus got $28 >million in its first round of funding in July of 2000 from a group of >investors eager to follow Mr. Zadikian's success. > >David Wolf knew he was at a turning point as he decided whether to follow >his former boss to Latus. A friend of his late father told him to do it >because it was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. His wife, Susan, advised >making the leap as well. The couple had just purchased some property north >of their home in Allen, Texas, to build a bigger house to accommodate >their expanding family. > >"Do it, as long as you get paid the same," Susan told her husband. Even if >it didn't work out, the couple reasoned that Mr. Wolf could take advantage >of one of several other job offers. In a matter of days, Mr. Wolf found >himself plunking down $5,000 on his credit card to buy a laptop so he >could start work at Latus on Monday. He remembers thinking with amusement >that there were no expense forms to fill out to get the money back, but he >trusted Mr. Dugan. > >They found some office space to rent and began hiring workers. "At every >board meeting, they said, 'Spend the money. Spend the money,' " recalls >Mr. Wolf. "The engineers were the hardest to find." Latus had to pay at >least $100,000 and as much as $120,000, plus bonuses, for the very senior >engineers, who often were playing more than three job offers off each >other. The start-up handed out 20% of its total shares to employees, and >those who joined first were given the largest number of options. Another >start-up raffled off a new BMW to employees who referred their colleagues >to the company. > >Money seemed to be everywhere -- and in many senses, it was. Capital >spending by telecom companies at the height of the boom soared to 106% of >revenue, according to Mr. Glen at Economy.com. Historically, that figure >had been just 38%. > >At Latus, Ken Maxham jumped in as employee No. 11, Bruce Raeside as >employee No. 16 and Amy Dugan as employee No. 47. Mrs. Dugan joined >despite some nervousness about perceptions of nepotism. A respected >engineer herself, she reasoned that joining her husband's company meant >the two could work day and night on Latus. > >The scramble began to get the technology ready for viewing at Supercomm, a >huge trade show in June of 2001. The engineers sometimes put in 20-hour >days working out kinks in the product, which looked like a bunch of >refrigerators full of wires. "Our entire existence was hinged on meeting >our claims," says Mr. Dugan. "I said there is no way we can go back and >tell the board there appeared to be fundamental physics limitations." > >What they didn't realize was that economic limitations would prove the >bigger threat. Latus was launched precisely at the peak of the bubble, >when money was flowing so freely in telecom that companies seemed willing >to buy anything. > >It was at Supercomm in Atlanta that the big buyers began showing signs of >flagging demand. Mr. Dugan had to rush out to California in the middle of >the show to give a funding pitch to one of the original investors. But the >second round of financing for Latus became almost impossible as the spigot >of capital shut off. An initial public offering became a distant dream. > >Mr. Dugan was hoping the uncertainty was just a slight fluctuation in the >market. That summer, the Dugans threw an even bigger party than before, >and catered it for the first time, bringing in trays of Mexican food under >a huge rented tent. Around that time, Susan Wolf started joking with Mr. >Dugan about whether her husband would still be able to bring home a >paycheck. An accountant, she works only during tax time to bring in a few >thousand dollars. Mr. Dugan knew it was a joke, but he began feeling the >responsibility on his shoulders. > >The first layoffs hit the Richardson area in the middle of 2001. Susan >Wolf began hearing stories in her neighborhood. "It is like the black >plague. You hear it happening to someone your neighbor knows. Then her >brother is laid off, and then it happens to you," she told her husband >over dinner recently with a guest. "It goes from the edges in -- closer >and closer -- and finally gets here." > >The company was notified that it lost its funding the morning of Sept. 11. >Mr. Dugan was waiting for a conference call among the Latus board when the >second plane hit the World Trade Center, but the call went on as investors >notified them that funding would be cut off. The founders were given only >10 days to find a new backer -- an almost impossible feat because any >potential bidders would have had to travel by bus to visit the company, >since all flights were grounded for days by terrorism fears. "We got >bombed twice," says Mr. Dugan, who doesn't blame the investors for their >decision given the climate. > >On Sept. 12, he called an all-hands meeting and told his fellow Latus >employees to update their resumes and finish their projects. "It's not >over, but it doesn't look good at all," he told them. > >On Sept. 23, Mr. Dugan invited them all to the local Omni Hotel, the place >where all the deals were made during better times. He told them that Latus >would be shut down, and its doors padlocked as the bank cleared out its >equipment. Everyone would lose their jobs immediately. Mr. Dugan made >arrangements to sign them up for unemployment benefits on the spot, and >then the Dugans paid for drinks for all. "A lot of these people were my >friends. They didn't hold it against me," says Mr. Dugan. "But I felt >badly for them." > >When Latus shut down, the Wolf family cut down on spending as they could. >They stopped hiring babysitters and going out to dinner, and cut back on >groceries. > >David Wolf stayed at home looking for a job, surprising his children the >first time that he picked them up from school. To fill his time, to the >slight irritation of his wife, he plunged into another start-up with Mr. >Dugan and a few others to develop another optical product. They even paid >out of their own pockets for Mr. Dugan to present the product at a show in >California earlier this year. But with the downturn so pronounced, they >received little interest. The fiber-optic amplifier is now sitting in a >case in Mr. Dugan's living room. > >As he flung himself into a new start-up, Mr. Dugan and others held >meetings at the local Starbucks, which had become the unofficial meeting >place for the unemployed. He says it is a strange experience to run into >people during the middle of the day. "It is like, 'Oh, this happened to >you, too,' " he says. > >Mr. Maxham started looking for a job immediately. Even though he is 59, he >was perhaps worst off financially because he had invested 30 years of >retirement savings in tech stocks after leaving Alcatel. "I was a >believer, but that was a bad decision," says Mr. Maxham, who lost >"hundreds of thousands" of dollars. Initially, he was mystified by the >scarcity of jobs because he had turned down seven job offers before >joining Latus. As he searched every day for jobs, unemployment benefits of >about $300 a week kicked in. > >To ease the tension, Mr. Maxham plays electric bass guitar in a band of >engineers called Signal2Noise. But it wasn't much of an escape: At one >point, half of the band was out of work. He felt increasingly guilty about >his precarious financial situation and apologized at one point to his >wife, Penny. "I am not angry," she told him. "I sort of know that we are >going to be OK." Still, it was rough recently when she had to accept money >from her parents to travel back to Idaho to visit them. > >For months now, the bottom has been getting deeper. Robert Shapiro, head >of the local telecom branch of the national engineering association, >thinks the cycle must be at the bottom. "How could it get any worse?" asks >Mr. Shapiro, who is working a temporary job after months of unemployment. >Attendance at the group's monthly meetings at the local Holiday Inn has >doubled since engineers now have extra time. Mr. Shapiro estimates that >half of the association's members have been laid off. Meetings now start >with job-hunting tips. > >Part of the problem is that there is no place for the highly specialized >engineers to turn as the tech industry continues to slump. Krish Prabhu, >the former chief operating officer of Alcatel who lives in the Dallas >area, hears the desperation as companies ask for money and former >colleagues call for job tips. A partner with Morgenthaler Ventures, a >venture-capital firm, Mr. Prabhu says it will be tough for any start-up to >survive. "There is a nervousness about whether this downturn is part of a >cycle or a fundamental change that telecom has become a commodity like the >computer industry," says Mr. Prabhu. > >The ripples are spreading. The city of Richardson is being hit by a drop >of more than 20% of its sales tax and a coming hit to its property taxes >from all the empty office buildings. Foreclosures in Collin County, where >many telecom workers live, are up 79% over last year, especially for homes >worth $250,000 or more. The process is brutally efficient in Texas: Once a >house is posted for foreclosure, the owner has only 21 days to come up >with the money before it is auctioned. > >Howard Dahlka, executive director of the Samaritan Inn, a homeless shelter >in nearby McKinney, is seeing the shell-shocked faces of telecom workers >who have lost their homes. "It is a whole new breed, what we are seeing >here," he says. > >People in Trouble > >Just in the past week, Samaritan has received 15 calls from people who are >expecting to lose their homes, and he worries whether his 58-bed shelter >will have to turn people away. Bill Kewin, an engineer who was laid off >from WorldCom six weeks ago, says many WorldCom workers are in very bad >financial shape because their 401(k) plans are worth virtually nothing. >Many have put their homes on the market and don't know where they are >going next. "There are a lot of people who are in trouble," he says. > >As November turned into December, Mr. Dugan had found no work. His wife, >Amy, thankfully did land a job for $100,000 a year at a telecom >manufacturer, giving them a degree of financial stability they are >grateful for. But it isn't easy for Mr. Dugan, who has 13 patents to his >name. He eventually got a little work consulting for a start-up, but >expects to lose that job in about a month. Something permanent feels >pretty far off. He's even thinking of going back to school to study >medicine. "I don't have a sense of accomplishment," he says. "I still have >more to do." > >Across town at the Wolf household, tension rose as Christmas approached >and David still didn't have a job. The couple fretted about Christmas, and >how to contribute to the gift-giving rituals with their extended family. >They didn't want to ask for help but were happy to accept cash gifts to >help ease the pinch. Susan Wolf was most worried about the $10,000 bill >for private school for one of their children with some special needs. Her >parents stepped in to help foot the bill late last year. > >Finally, in January, David got a job at Yotta Networks, another local >start-up that is focusing on long-haul networks. He makes about $100,000 a >year, but Yotta has gone through two sets of layoffs and is set to run out >of its funding in a matter of weeks. Company officials are negotiating >with a promising new customer, but the start-up is burning through $1 >million a month. > >The Wolfs estimate they have only enough savings to last three months. >"I'm getting nervous," says Mr. Wolf. "I've got a lot of people who are >telling me just to get out of telecom. I don't want to end up on the >street again." Susan Wolf says that if she needs to, she will resort to >anything to pay this year's school tuition. "I'll move into an apartment >if I have to." > >In April, Mr. Maxham thought his prayers had been answered. A company >called Celion Networks Inc. needed an engineer. He quickly called to >arrange an interview. Then a friend tipped him off that Mr. Raeside, his >old colleague from Latus, was also in the running for the job. After >agonizing the day before the interview, he decided to deal with the >competition head-on. "I put a good word in for him," says Mr. Maxham. > >He felt the interview went well. The job seemed like a perfect fit. They >needed a systems engineer -- a big-picture guy who supervises the hardware >design of a new product. But while he was waiting to see if he'd get >another interview, the phone rang with some disquieting news. It was Mr. >Raeside, letting him know as a courtesy that he'd been asked back for a >second interview. He called again when he got hired. > >The two men remain friends, but Mr. Raeside seemed sheepish when he >spotted him this year at Mr. Dugan's party. "I was lucky," he said softly. >"I am really convinced that it came down to either one of us. We were both >perfect for the job." > >The job only lasted four months. Mr. Raeside was laid off on Friday. > >The party itself was much tamer this year. Guests were asked to bring >potluck dishes, and the biggest attraction was a big tent Mr. Dugan >designed himself to save money. > >Mr. Maxham attends job workshops run by various churches in the area. As >every week passes, he notices more and more of the unemployed coming. Lisa >Miller, the executive director of Career/HiTech Connection, the biggest >workshop in the area, makes it her mission to keep spirits high. "You will >find a job," Ms. Miller told the crowd packing the Preston Hollow >Presbyterian Church one recent Tuesday night as she explained the >importance of networking. But as the telecom crisis deepens, Mr. Maxham >becomes less convinced there are even jobs to be had. He sat with a grim >look one recent night as job openings were called off, none of them for >engineers. > >As Mr. Maxham's savings account dwindles to under $10,000, things are >getting very shaky. He now buys only food that is on sale, looks for the >cheapest gas and has put off replacing his wife's 10-year-old car. He >won't go to a food bank because he says they give away too much meat, >which he doesn't like. Repairs are going undone. Recently, Mr. Maxham set >out with sealant to repair some leaks on his roof. If he doesn't find any >work by September, he says that money will "get very tight." > >It already has. Penny Maxham says that she is trying to ignore a toothache >because the couple has no dental coverage. She quit her job a couple of >years ago to fulfill a dream of getting a Ph.D. in neuroscience, but she >is considering going back to work. > >Once there was a time when Mr. Maxham vowed never to leave engineering. >His father was an engineer, and his three grown children are engineers. >But a month ago, Mr. Maxham's unemployment benefits ran out, and he is >reconsidering. He recently applied to teach physics at a community >college. A friend recently asked him to help install some computers in >cars. He is open to anything because he really needs the money. > >"It's frustrating," says Mr. Maxham, who in his 30 years as an engineer >earned seven patents. An eighth just arrived in the mail last week. "I >just enjoyed being an engineer so much. I was born like that and I passed >it along to my children. ... But maybe I will become a teacher, just like >my dad did in the Depression." > >Write to Rebecca Blumenstein at rebecca.blumenstein at wsj.com1 > >Hyperlinks in this Article: >(1) mailto:rebecca.blumenstein at wsj.com >(2) >http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB1029102020679872395,00.html >(3) >http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB10281640071014240,00.html >(4) >http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB1015984276246327360,00.html From william at elan.net Tue Aug 20 16:12:51 2002 From: william at elan.net (william at elan.net) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 16:12:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IETF SMTP Working Group Proposal at smtpng.org Message-ID: This is copy of the message sent to IETF mail list. As subject said, I'd like to organize IETF working group to define new additions to SMTP. ---------------- As everyone I'm sure have seen on the last "why is spam a problem" and other similar threads on ietf as well as numerous similar threads on other lists and boards, there is a serious need to do something to limit amount of unsolicited email. While the roots maybe social issue I do not see why we can not work on it from technical point of view. In addition to that during last years, I'v seen real need for new features to be added into SMTP, such as ones for callback, delayed transmission, delivery notification,secure communications, etc, etc and there are in fact several drafts available on some issues. As far as anti-spam mechanisms I do not belive we should force some particular method on everyone but rather built several verification features into protocol and allow server operators to themselve choose if they want to use it. Where the features were use the email would be considered more secure and users can use that to sort out mail (as many do already with special filters). I believe its time we start working within IETF on new version of SMTP that would have more features and be more secure. I'v tried to point this out several times before on nanog and ietf hoping that someone would take the initiave but as this did not happen, I'm willing to do it now. At this point I'm proposing creation of IETF working group that would look into ways to extend SMTP. I'v created website and mailing list to discuss charter of the proposed working group at http://www.smtpng.org Those who agree with me, please subscribe to the mailing list and lets work on this futher in a kind-of BOF. I'm also looking for two co-chairs for the working group with at least one preferablly having been chair of ietf group before. I'm planning on sending final draft for working group charter in about two weeks time and right now I'm going to be contacting several people who have expressed interest in working on SMTP protocol as well as contacting IETF area director on proceeding with this. -- William Leibzon william at elan.net From eugen at leitl.org Tue Aug 20 07:18:37 2002 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 16:18:37 +0200 (CEST) Subject: IP: Group warns of massive EU surveillance (fwd) Message-ID: -- -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://eugen.leitl.org 83E5CA02: EDE4 7193 0833 A96B 07A7 1A88 AA58 0E89 83E5 CA02 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:10:57 -0400 From: Dave Farber To: ip Subject: IP: Group warns of massive EU surveillance ------ Forwarded Message From: steven cherry Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:06:06 -0400 (EDT) To: farber at cis.upenn.edu Subject: Group warns of massive EU surveillance Group warns of massive EU surveillance By Graeme Wearden Special to CNET News.com August 20, 2002, 5:34 AM PT http://news.com.com/2100-1023-954487.html Privacy advocates claim that the European Union plans to make sweeping changes to laws that govern communications-related data retention and privacy, requiring the long-term storage of such information and making it available to governments. Statewatch, a U.K.-based Internet organization that monitors threats to civil liberties within Europe, said Monday that European governments are planning to force all of the continent's telephone carriers, mobile network operators and Internet service providers to store details of their customers' Web use, e-mails and phone calls for up to two years. This data would be made available to governments and law enforcement agencies. The European Parliament is currently debating changes to the 1997 EU Directive on privacy in telecommunications, which governs existing laws on communications data retention. This directive states that traffic data can only be retained for billing purposes and must then be deleted. European governments were expected to agree to changes to the 1997 directive that would allow individual countries to bring in laws forcing communications companies to retain data. Statewatch, though, said it has seen a copy of a binding "framework decision" that is currently being worked on by some EU governments. The framework decision, which could be voted into law next month, would force all governments to pass laws that would compel communications companies to retain all traffic data for 12 months to 24 months. As previously reported, it has been rumoured for some time that EU governments were secretly working on such changes. "EU governments claimed that changes to the 1997 EC Directive on privacy in telecommunications to allow for data retention and access by the law enforcement agencies would not be binding on member states--each national parliament would have to decide. Now we know that all along they were intending to make it binding, compulsory across Europe," Tony Bunyan, editor of Statewatch, said in a statement. Bunyan added that the draft framework decision would sweep away the basic rights of data protection, scrutiny by supervisory bodies and judicial review. The framework decision may include the provision that the police would need to obtain a judicial order before gaining access to traffic data, but Statewatch warns that such conditions have been sidestepped before. ------ End of Forwarded Message For archives see: http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/ From rah at shipwright.com Tue Aug 20 14:28:38 2002 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 17:28:38 -0400 Subject: Bankrupt Digicash Made $481K in 1999 In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020820121018.026ffd08@pop3.lvcm.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020820121018.026ffd08@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: At 12:12 PM -0700 on 8/20/02, Steve Schear wrote: > Perhaps its my ignorance, but doesn't this form merely mean DC paid the > Chaum Family Trust $481K, not that the company made $481K? An even more interesting question, to be forever unanswered :-), is exactly how JYA got a copy of that 1099... Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From jya at pipeline.com Tue Aug 20 17:59:23 2002 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 17:59:23 -0700 Subject: Bankrupt Digicash Made $481K in 1999 In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020820121018.026ffd08@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020820121018.026ffd08@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: Yes, Steve, the 1099 describes payments made to others, or is supposed to, but 1099s are shifty and don't always conform to reality. So if you believe the 1099, Digicash either made at least $481K or got it somehow or just made up the number in a venture to fleece a lender or flummox a Chaum Family doubter. Note the checked box for "corrected." What was originally reported is unknown. But whoever got stiffed by Digicash's bankruptcy might like to know more about where the $481, real or fictional, came from as well as how that compares to what was initially "incorrectly" reported to IRS, to the bankruptcy court and to debtors -- some of the latter, as noted here long ago, are aggrieved employees. Note also that the 1099 is not signed and dated. Whether it is a draft or final is unknown. Could even be a piece of pure shit sunshine in accord with never, ever lie to the IRS principal all citizens follow. Robert, WTF you asking? The doc came from Anonymous, the one and only reliable source. Inhale, hold it. From yildizbil at ixir.com Tue Aug 20 18:21:32 2002 From: yildizbil at ixir.com (YILDIZ BLGSAYAR) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 18:21:32 Subject: Bilgisayarnz yatak odanzda da kullann Yldz Bilgisayar Message-ID: <200208201521.g7KFLUR25402@waste.minder.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2477 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rah at shipwright.com Tue Aug 20 15:44:31 2002 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 18:44:31 -0400 Subject: Bankrupt Digicash Made $481K in 1999 In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020820121018.026ffd08@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020820121018.026ffd08@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: At 5:59 PM -0700 on 8/20/02, John Young wrote: > Robert, WTF you asking? A mere rhetorical question, of course. > The doc came from Anonymous, > the one and only reliable source. It was ever thus. > Inhale, hold it. ffffffttttttt... Wow... That's some real thunderfuck, J. Beats the hell out of the stuff you pulled out of your sock last week. I mean, that shit was *foul*, man... Cheers, RAH Damn, I'm hungry. Anybody wanna go in on a pizza? In the meantime, I've got some cheetos stashed around here somewhere... -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From remailer at remailer.xganon.com Tue Aug 20 19:17:31 2002 From: remailer at remailer.xganon.com (Anonymous) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 21:17:31 -0500 Subject: IETF WG on SMTP feeler... Message-ID: There has been an awful lot of discussion on this here in CP land, so maybe some responses too? A good place to put forward suggestions to make hard calculations a requirement of delivery or maybe some digicash to pay for it? * * * From remailer at remailer.xganon.com Tue Aug 20 19:28:47 2002 From: remailer at remailer.xganon.com (Anonymous) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 21:28:47 -0500 Subject: alternate dos pgp client? Message-ID: <5f4121ff5f0949004e48febb08a139d7@remailer.xganon.com> The latest release of Mixmaster claims to be an "OpenPGP enhancement release". I looked at the source more closely, and it seems to contain an entire pgp implementation. I had previously thought it made external calls to either pgp or gnupg. This got me thinking - has anyone tried hacking mixmaster to be a pgp client? I have compiled it under DOS before, so I know that is possible. Does anyone know if mixmaster can use 'non-legacy' RSA keys? Is there any pgp functionality that it lacks? I am looking for a pgp implementation that will run on DOS, but will also be compatible with modern key types. From mark44 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 20 21:48:07 2002 From: mark44 at yahoo.com (mark44 at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 21:48:07 Subject: check this site out Message-ID: <97.660836.756127@yahoo.com> "Baseball Bat Parties" New trend sweeping the USA where teenage girls pleasure themselves with full size baseball bats. Don't believe me, have a look at this� http://www.supremewebhosting-online.com/users/a/amy/bc/ remove link: http://200.38.128.154/ From gbroiles at parrhesia.com Tue Aug 20 22:36:14 2002 From: gbroiles at parrhesia.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 22:36:14 -0700 Subject: Bankrupt Digicash Made $481K in 1999 In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020820121018.026ffd08@pop3.lvcm.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020820222114.03bd9cf0@bivens.parrhesia.com> At 12:12 PM 8/20/2002 -0700, Steve Schear wrote: >At 12:33 PM 8/20/2002 -0700, you wrote: >>Digicash 1999 IRS forms: >> >> http://cryptome.org/digicash-481k.htm > >Perhaps its my ignorance, but doesn't this form merely mean DC paid the >Chaum Family Trust $481K, not that the company made $481K? (since the PKI market's been in the toilet, I've been learning about taxation) Even that assumes too much - there wasn't necessarily a transfer of money. If, for example (and this is purely hypothetical), Chaum had agreed to work for DC in exchange for 1,000,000 shares of stock, and $481K was the fair market value of those shares, then it would be proper to issue a 1099-MISC with that amount in Box 3 and Chaum would be taxed on that $481K as income, even though he received it as stock instead of cash. (If the circumstances were different, the income might be expected to show up in Box 7, "nonemployee compensation"; but here it's in Box 3, which should transfer directly either to Line 21 on the 1040 for miscellaneous income, or onto a Schedule C, assuming it's an individual taxpayer, which isn't the case here.) This sort of 1099 is also what you'd expect to see going to the recipient of cash as damages following or related to a lawsuit. If Digicash loaned money to Chaum and later forgave the debt (not unusual, where a founder or other important employee wants to exercise stock options early but doesn't have cash for the exercise), Chaum would be obligated to report the forgiven debt as income but a 1099 would not be required; that doesn't stop people from sending them anyway. -- Greg Broiles -- gbroiles at parrhesia.com -- PGP 0x26E4488c or 0x94245961 From rabbi at abditum.com Tue Aug 20 22:48:58 2002 From: rabbi at abditum.com (Len Sassaman) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 22:48:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: alternate dos pgp client? In-Reply-To: <5f4121ff5f0949004e48febb08a139d7@remailer.xganon.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Aug 2002, Anonymous wrote: > This got me thinking - has anyone tried hacking mixmaster to be a pgp > client? I have compiled it under DOS before, so I know that is possible. > Does anyone know if mixmaster can use 'non-legacy' RSA keys? Is there any > pgp functionality that it lacks? I am looking for a pgp implementation that > will run on DOS, but will also be compatible with modern key types. It is possible to build a simple PGP client with the source you have -- the file pgptest.c offers that, but it's really only for debugging purposes. Run "make mpgp" in the Src directory to try it. A better interface to the standalone PGP functions shouldn't be hard to write. We can look into that if there is demand for it. Note that Mixmaster has no concept of the web of trust, and doesn't do keychain management. It assumes that if you are placing a key on your keyring, you've determined it is valid. That said, Mixmaster does offer all the basic OpenPGP messaging capabilities, except for verification of clear-signed messages. (This wasn't needed for any of the features Mixmaster provides, so it wasn't added.) We'll be adding this capability soon, however. (The author of the QuickSilver Windows remailer client app has requested it. QuickSilver provides PGP capabilities through the Mixmaster .dll, sans clearsig verification.) Mixmaster does support RSA v4 keys, though it doesn't have Twofish support since it links against OpenSSL for its crypto, and OpenSSL doesn't have Twofish support. If you have OpenSSL 0.9.7, Mixmaster will support AES. (Also, Mixmaster now supports use of the Modification Code Detection packet in OpenPGP messages, which is used to prevent the attack Schneier, et al. recently wrote about.) As far as DOS goes -- I honestly haven't tried compiling for DOS. It "should" work. Please let me know if you run into any problems. (And, as always, we're in need of developers and testers. If you're interested in working on this project, please join the development mailing list. See mixmaster.sf.net for more info.) --Len. From rabbi at abditum.com Tue Aug 20 22:49:29 2002 From: rabbi at abditum.com (Len Sassaman) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 22:49:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Signing as one member of a set of keys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Aug 2002, Anonymous wrote: > *** COULD SOMEONE PLEASE FOLLOW THE STEPS ABOVE AND PUT THE ringsig.c, > ringsign, ringver, AND sigring.pgp FILES ON A WEB PAGE SO THAT PEOPLE > CAN DOWNLOAD THEM WITHOUT HAVING TO GO THROUGH ALL THESE STEPS? *** The files are available at: http://www.abditum.com/~rabbi/ringsig/ Also, if you'd like to send me a more detailed blurb for the webpage, I'd be happy to put it up. Otherwise, this will have to do. > 9. Please report whether you were able to succeed, and if not, which step > failed for you. I just ran into a bunch of errors when trying to compile with OpenSSL 0.9.7beta3. I'm debugging now... --Len. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Aug 20 23:54:25 2002 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 23:54:25 -0700 Subject: Seth on TCPA at Defcon/Usenix In-Reply-To: <014601c2410c$ef4625c0$6801a8c0@xpserver> References: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20020820234704.046e8ac0@idiom.com> At 12:58 AM 08/11/2002 -0700, Lucky Green wrote: >BTW, does anybody here know if there is still an email time stamping >server in operation? The references that I found to such servers appear >to be dead. The canonical timestamping system was Haber & Stornetta's work at Bellcore, commercialized at Surety.com. The site is current, has some Digital Notary Service and Secure Email things on it, and something much more amazing - it looks like they received $7M in financing in June :-) There's a nice collection of pointers to timestamping systems at http://saturn.tcs.hut.fi/~helger/crypto/link/timestamping/ though I don't know how current the references are - the page was last updated 14.8.2002. The free PGP-based system http://www.itconsult.co.uk/stamper.htm has a news item from 04-Jun-02, which comments that, although they haven't posted any news items in five years, they've been in continuous operation.... From nobody at dizum.com Tue Aug 20 16:00:06 2002 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 01:00:06 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Chaum's unpatented ecash scheme Message-ID: <75eb021ec209a14179773bc419fd9129@dizum.com> David Chaum gave a talk at the Crypto 2002 conference recently in which he briefly presented a number of interesting ideas, including an approach to digital cash which he himself said would "avoid the ecash patents". The diagram he showed was as follows: Optimistic Authenticator z = x^s Payer f(m)^a z^b Bank -----------------------------> [f(m)^a z^b]^s <----------------------------- m, f(m)^s -----------------------------> It's hard to figure out what this means, but it bears resemblance to a scheme discussed on the Coderpunks list in 1999, a variant on a blinding method developed by David Wagner. See http://www.mail-archive.com/coderpunks at toad.com/msg02323.html for a description, with a sketch of a proof of blindness at http://www.mail-archive.com/coderpunks at toad.com/msg02387.html and http://www.mail-archive.com/coderpunks at toad.com/msg02388.html. In Chaum's diagram it is not clear which parts of the key are private and which public, although z is presumably public. Since the bank's action is apparently to raise to the s power, s must be secret. That suggests that x is public. However Chaum's system seems to require dividing by (z^b)^s in order to unblind the value, and if s is secret, that doesn't seem possible. In Wagner's scheme everything was like this except that the bank's key would be expressed as x = z^s, again with x and z public and s secret. f(m) would be a one-way function, which gets doubly-blinded by being raised to the a power and multiplied by z^b, where a and b are randomly chosen blinding factors. The bank raises this to its secret power s, and the user unblinds to form f(m)^s. To later deposit the coin he does as in the third step, sending m and f(m)^s to the bank. For the unblinding, the user can divide by (z^b)^s, which equals z^(b*s), which equals (z^s)^b, which equals x^b. Since x is public and the user chose b, he can unblind the value. Maybe the transcription above of the Chaum scheme had a typo and it was actually similar to the Wagner method. Chaum commented that the payer does not receive a signature in this system, and that he doesn't need one because he is protected against misbehavior by the bank. This is apparently where the scheme gets its name. From hmbabes at porn-4-you.com Tue Aug 20 20:15:49 2002 From: hmbabes at porn-4-you.com (Horny Mature Babes) Date: 21 Aug 2002 03:15:49 -0000 Subject: Are You Looking For Older Women...? 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JOIN UP NOW !!!!!!!!!! http://mail.nasty-mailings.com/classic-mature/ To be removed click below http://www.unreal-sex.com/remove/ From adam at cypherspace.org Tue Aug 20 19:24:21 2002 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 03:24:21 +0100 Subject: Cryptographic privacy protection in TCPA In-Reply-To: <20020818165856.A991609@exeter.ac.uk>; from adam@cypherspace.org on Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 04:58:56PM +0100 References: <0b9f4829b10ce20154d1cca436a26860@aarg.net> <20020818165856.A991609@exeter.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20020821032421.A1059401@exeter.ac.uk> On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 04:58:56PM +0100, Adam Back wrote: > [...] "Also relevant is An Efficient System for Non-transferable > Anonymous Credentials with Optional Anonymity Revocation", Jan > Camenisch and Anna Lysyanskaya, Eurocrypt 01 > > http://eprint.iacr.org/2001/019/ > > These credentials allow the user to do unlinkable multi-show without > involving a CA. They are somewhat less efficient than Chaum or Brands > credentials though. But for this application does this removes the > need to trusting a CA, or even have a CA: the endorsement key and > credential can be inserted by the manufacturer, can be used > indefinitely many times, and are not linkable. There was some off-list discussion about possibility for sharing these credentials once a given credential is extracted from it's TPM by a user who broke the tamper resistance of his TPM. I also said: > [...] Credentials which are shared are easier to revoke -- knowledge > of the private keys typically will render most schemes linkable and > revocable. This leaves only online lending which is anyway harder > to prevent. Because Camenisch credentials are unlinkable multi-show it makes it harder to recognize sharing, so the user could undetectably share credentials with a small group that he trusts. (By comparison with linkable pseudonymous credentials and a privacy CA the issuer and/or verifier would see unusually high activity from a given pseudonym or TPM endorsement key if the corresponding credential were shared too widely.) However if the Camenisch (unlinkable multi-show) credential were shared too widely the issuer may also learn the secret key and hence be able to link and so revoke the overly-shared credentials. This combats sharing though to a limited extent. Another idea to improve upon this inherent risk of sharing too widely may be to use a protocol which it is not safe to do parallel shows with. (Some ZKPs are not secure when you engage in multiple show protocols in parallel. Usually this is considered a bad thing, and steps are taken to allow safe parallel show.) For this application a show protocol which it is not safe to engage in parallel shows may frustrate sharing: someone who shared the credential too widely would have difficulty coordinating amongst the sharees not to show the same credential in parallel. I notice Camenisch et al mention steps to avoid parallel showing problem, so perhaps that feature could be reintroduced. In contrast, the TPM can easily ensure that the credential is not used in parallel shows. Adam -- http://www.cypherspace.org/adam/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From remailer at remailer.xganon.com Wed Aug 21 08:10:33 2002 From: remailer at remailer.xganon.com (Anonymous) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 10:10:33 -0500 Subject: Discouraging credential sharing with Mojo Message-ID: <21eddb1791b4c1cfaeb92c230ae5b9ef@remailer.xganon.com> Some credential issuing schemes, such as those from Brands as well as from Camenisch & Lysyanskaya, try to avoid credential sharing by embedding into the credential some secret which is important and valuable to the credential holder. Then if the credential is shared, the recipient learns the important secret, to the detriment of the person sharing the credential. So he won't do it. The problem is that there don't seem to be any secrets that will work well in discouraging sharing. The most obvious is a credit card number, but this has a number of problems: some people don't have credit cards; people could cancel their credit cards after receiving the credentia; and underground hackers have access to thousands of stolen credit card numbers that they don't mind sharing. Clearly we need a new approach. Here is a suggestion for a simple solution which will give everyone an important secret that they will avoid sharing. At birth each person will be issued a secret key. This will be called his Mojo. He will also get the associated public key which will assist in protocols which involve commiting to his Mojo. The public key can be revealed but the Mojo should be kept secret at all costs. Then in a credential issuing protocol, the user embeds his Mojo into his credential in a provable way. It is important that the protocol not reveal the Mojo to the issuer, but rather that some kind of zero knowledge proof be used so that the issuer is confident that sharing the credential will reveal the Mojo. Now all that is needed is a simple change to the law so that knowing someone's Mojo makes him your slave. That is, if you know someone's Mojo you own him. You get access to all his money and all his assets. You can force him to work for you and take all he earns. You can mistreat and even kill him. If he tries to escape, the Runaway Mojo Slave act will commit the government to tracking him down and returning him to you. With this small change to the law, everyone will be gifted with an important secret which they can use to bind and commit themselves in a variety of protocols. By embedding their Mojo into their secret credentials, they can assure the credential issuer that the credential won't be shared. Mojo can also serve as an "is a person" credential and allow for secure electronic voting and other protocols where each person should only participate once. Please join me in supporting this important reform. Just say, "I want my Mojo!" From marketing at cd-uk.net Wed Aug 21 02:58:46 2002 From: marketing at cd-uk.net (Computer Developments UK) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 10:58:46 +0100 Subject: This Weeks Special Offers! Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 7882 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ben at algroup.co.uk Wed Aug 21 06:31:53 2002 From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 14:31:53 +0100 Subject: Chaum's unpatented ecash scheme References: <75eb021ec209a14179773bc419fd9129@dizum.com> Message-ID: <3D639649.3080102@algroup.co.uk> Nomen Nescio wrote: > David Chaum gave a talk at the Crypto 2002 conference recently in which > he briefly presented a number of interesting ideas, including an approach > to digital cash which he himself said would "avoid the ecash patents". > > The diagram he showed was as follows: > > > Optimistic Authenticator > > z = x^s > > Payer f(m)^a z^b Bank > -----------------------------> > > [f(m)^a z^b]^s > <----------------------------- > > m, f(m)^s > -----------------------------> > > > It's hard to figure out what this means, but it bears resemblance to a > scheme discussed on the Coderpunks list in 1999, a variant on a blinding > method developed by David Wagner. See > http://www.mail-archive.com/coderpunks at toad.com/msg02323.html for a > description, with a sketch of a proof of blindness at > http://www.mail-archive.com/coderpunks at toad.com/msg02387.html and > http://www.mail-archive.com/coderpunks at toad.com/msg02388.html. > > In Chaum's diagram it is not clear which parts of the key are private and > which public, although z is presumably public. Since the bank's action > is apparently to raise to the s power, s must be secret. That suggests > that x is public. However Chaum's system seems to require dividing by > (z^b)^s in order to unblind the value, and if s is secret, that doesn't > seem possible. > > In Wagner's scheme everything was like this except that the bank's key > would be expressed as x = z^s, again with x and z public and s secret. > f(m) would be a one-way function, which gets doubly-blinded by being > raised to the a power and multiplied by z^b, where a and b are randomly > chosen blinding factors. The bank raises this to its secret power s, > and the user unblinds to form f(m)^s. To later deposit the coin he does > as in the third step, sending m and f(m)^s to the bank. > > For the unblinding, the user can divide by (z^b)^s, which equals z^(b*s), > which equals (z^s)^b, which equals x^b. Since x is public and the user > chose b, he can unblind the value. Maybe the transcription above of the > Chaum scheme had a typo and it was actually similar to the Wagner method. Sounds like it. > > Chaum commented that the payer does not receive a signature in this > system, and that he doesn't need one because he is protected against > misbehavior by the bank. This is apparently where the scheme gets > its name. Note that the scheme as described (and corrected) is vulnerable to marking by the bank, and so is not anonymous. This is discussed and fixed in my paper on Lucre (http://anoncvs.aldigital.co.uk/lucre/theory2.pdf). Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ Available for contract work. "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From adam at cypherspace.org Wed Aug 21 06:43:41 2002 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 14:43:41 +0100 Subject: alternate dos pgp client? In-Reply-To: <5f4121ff5f0949004e48febb08a139d7@remailer.xganon.com>; from remailer@remailer.xganon.com on Tue, Aug 20, 2002 at 09:28:47PM -0500 References: <5f4121ff5f0949004e48febb08a139d7@remailer.xganon.com> Message-ID: <20020821144341.B1077416@exeter.ac.uk> I put together a list of openpgp related software at: http://www.cypherspace.org/openpgp/ this includes library only code, and add on software. Not sure about your questions about key versions, but I forwarded it to Ulf Moeller and Len Sassaman (current maintainer of mix3). >From what I've seen mix3 (pgptest app) is the closest to providing a command line. There was also Tom Zerucha's reference openPGP code, which is command line but it's alpha level code I think and no longer maintained. Adam On Tue, Aug 20, 2002 at 09:28:47PM -0500, Anonymous wrote: > The latest release of Mixmaster claims to be an "OpenPGP enhancement > release". I looked at the source more closely, and it seems to contain an > entire pgp implementation. I had previously thought it made external calls > to either pgp or gnupg. > > This got me thinking - has anyone tried hacking mixmaster to be a pgp > client? I have compiled it under DOS before, so I know that is possible. > Does anyone know if mixmaster can use 'non-legacy' RSA keys? Is there any > pgp functionality that it lacks? I am looking for a pgp implementation that > will run on DOS, but will also be compatible with modern key types. From wolf at priori.net Wed Aug 21 16:22:35 2002 From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 16:22:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Discouraging credential sharing with Mojo In-Reply-To: <21eddb1791b4c1cfaeb92c230ae5b9ef@remailer.xganon.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Aug 2002, Anonymous wrote: > Clearly we need a new approach. Here is a suggestion for a simple > solution which will give everyone an important secret that they will > avoid sharing. > > At birth each person will be issued a secret key. This will be called > his Mojo. [snip] > Now all that is needed is a simple change to the law so that knowing > someone's Mojo makes him your slave. Virtually all cultures have held the mythological belief that all "beings with souls" have a True Name, and that knowledge of one's true name leads to power over him. (This isn't really surprising, since the True Name concept features prominently in Babylonian mythology, from which the myths of nearly all other civilizations have sprung.) For instance, knowing the True Name of a god could result in one being granted godly powers, or immortality (cf: Isis learning the True Name of Ra in Egyptian mythology). In Greek (and neo-pagan) nature myths, speaking the true name of a landscape object could give the speaker protection or favors from the spirit inhabiting the object. In Hebrew, Essene, and Islamic mythology, as well as Celtic, Pacific Island, and Norse tales, the True Name theme appears repeatedly. Etc. It sounds like you wish to revive this superstition, but instead make it cryptographically enforcable. "Trust in the laws of mathematics and men, not of gods?" Welcome to the Church of Strong Cryptography. > Please join me in supporting this important reform. > > Just say, "I want my Mojo!" Sometimes, I wonder if some of these posts are not intended to be as ironic as they appear. -MW- From yemekzevki at celiknet.com Wed Aug 21 16:39:55 2002 From: yemekzevki at celiknet.com (Yemek zevki) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 16:39:55 Subject: HEP AYNI YEMEKLERDEN SIKILDINIZ MI? Message-ID: <200208211335.g7LDZtJ00841@locust.minder.net> Sofralariniz $enlenecek... Rutin yemek çesitlerinden kurtulacaksiniz. Word formatinda hazirlanmis yaklasik 40 kategori ve 3000 adet tariften olusan 5 cilt yemek kitabi serisi sadece ama sadece 10.000.000.- (onmilyon) Örnek dosya ve ayrintili bilgi için; http://www.geocities.com/yemekzevki3003/ Adreslerini ziyaret ediniz... From bill.stewart at pobox.com Wed Aug 21 17:45:52 2002 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 17:45:52 -0700 Subject: Pizza with a credit card In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20020729224220.0563ba40@mail.panix.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20020821173949.04771c88@idiom.com> At 10:44 PM 07/29/2002 -0400, Duncan Frissell wrote: >Buying Trouble > >In which the Village Voice discusses the use of commercial databases >including supermarket discount cards in hunting terrorists. > >One useful piece of advice: > >Don't but pizza with a credit card: >Oddly enough, "one of the factors was if you were a person who frequently >ordered pizza and paid with a credit card," Ponemon says, describing the >buying habits of a nation of college students. "Sometimes data leads to an >empirical inference when you add it to other variables. Whether this one is >relevant or completely spurious remains to be seen, but those kinds of >weird things happen with data." > >Course all those terrorists buying their pizzas with cash get away clean. Nah - buying delivered pizza with cash is obviously indicates money laundering to hide cash from drug transactions... Especially if the recording of your call starts out "like, wow, man, we'd like some pizza. Yeah, pizza! Oh, wait, what do we want on it? Shrooms and pepperoni? and like Everything but the little fishies, man!" New Jersey's Pizza Connection case a few years ago busted a dozen or so pizza shops for delivering other products as well as pizza, primarily heroin. From pnorton at fixcomp.net Wed Aug 21 19:43:02 2002 From: pnorton at fixcomp.net (P. NORTON) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 19:43:02 -0700 Subject: Norton SystemWorks CLEARANCE SALE Message-ID: ATTENTION: This is a MUST for ALL Computer Users!!! *NEW - Special Package Deal!* Norton SystemWorks 2002 Software Suite -Professional Edition- Includes Six - Yes 6! - Feature-Packed Utilities ALL for 1 Special LOW Price! This Software Will: - Protect your computer from unwanted and hazardous viruses - Help secure your private & valuable information - Allow you to transfer files and send e-mails safely - Backup your ALL your data quick and easily - Improve your PC's performance w/superior integral diagnostics! 6 Feature-Packed Utilities 1 Great Price A $300+ Combined Retail Value YOURS for Only $29.99! Don't fall prey to destructive viruses or hackers! Protect your computer and your valuable information and -> CLICK HERE to Order Yours NOW! <- Click here for more information Your email address was obtained from an opt-in list. Opt-in MRSA List Purchase Code # 142-3-090. If you wish to be unsubscribed from this list, please Click here. . We do not condone spam in any shape or form. Thank You kindly for your cooperation. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 6474 bytes Desc: not available URL: From remailer at aarg.net Wed Aug 21 23:45:29 2002 From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 23:45:29 -0700 Subject: New Palladium FAQ available Message-ID: <3ede23f1bf3f47e4108ec740a392452d@aarg.net> Microsoft has apparently just made available a new FAQ on its controversial Palladium technology at http://www.microsoft.com/PressPass/features/2002/aug02/0821PalladiumFAQ.asp. Samples: > Q: I've heard that "Palladium" will force people to run only > Microsoft-approved software. > > A: "Palladium" can't do that. "Palladium's" security chip (the SSC) > and other features are not involved in the boot process of the OS or in > the OS's decision to load an application that doesn't use a "Palladium" > feature and execute it. Because "Palladium" is not involved in the > boot process, it cannot block an OS, or drivers or any non-"Palladium" > PC application from running. Only the user decides what "Palladium" > applications get to run. Anyone can write an application to take advantage > of "Palladium" APIs without notifying Microsoft (or anyone else) or > getting its (or anyone else's) approval. > Q: Some people have claimed that "Palladium" will enable Microsoft or > other parties to detect and remotely delete unlicensed software from my > PC. Is this true? > > A: No. As stated above, the function of "Palladium" is to make digitally > signed statements about code identity and hide secrets from other > "Palladium" applications and regular Windows kernel- and user-mode > spaces. "Palladium" doesn't have any features that make it easier for > an application to detect or delete files. Hopefully Microsoft will continue to release information about Palladium. That should help to bring some of the more outrageous rumors under control. From rabbi at abditum.com Thu Aug 22 00:30:23 2002 From: rabbi at abditum.com (Len Sassaman) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 00:30:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Signing as one member of a set of keys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Aug 2002, Anonymous wrote: > Len Sassaman has put the ringsig program up at > > http://www.abditum.com/~rabbi/ringsig/ [...] > Second, unfortunately all of the tabs have been converted to spaces. > This will prevent the sig from verifying. [...] I've put a corrected version in its place. If this still has problems, could you send me the md5sum of the correctly formatted file so that I can be sure I get it right? --Len. From remailer at remailer.xganon.com Wed Aug 21 22:50:47 2002 From: remailer at remailer.xganon.com (Anonymous) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 00:50:47 -0500 Subject: Signing as one member of a set of keys Message-ID: Len Sassaman has put the ringsig program up at > http://www.abditum.com/~rabbi/ringsig/ First, the ring signature portion has successfully been repaired from the truncation imposed by the anon remailer in the original post. Second, unfortunately all of the tabs have been converted to spaces. This will prevent the sig from verifying. Third, a number of the lines have been wrapped. This will also prevent the verification from going through. Is it possible for you to visit http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.2002.08.05-2002.08.11/msg00221.html and use the kind of "Save as Text" command in your browser, to get the version with the tabs and without the wrapping? Doing this with IE on this system avoids these problems. Then you just need to bring over the missing signature lines, which has been done successfully in the files above. Thanks very much to Len Sassaman for making this file available. ++multisig v1.0 +Hkvy3oF8ULSowmX+Q3oUgRxy7gEkn5fsiq3ezXz5dPJxQxz4nR9F+9YzjMTagOw FpUA9idUECIm2023Ech/AHDSHFk4hqlZBon0Rak5N12C7R7tqdY2EkKOG9j2i24J MkD0W7/qH53V2q6TheJUeRsSg4nn58nazWIKlOG8FZiGm+j6tRXnAiGVAE2+Mqtk 5Vig7GQ/c+MZWwgccN3pc8xENanr4dIbBJVzDQBZL2auoLpukRrj22AO+ujUnprh pY8tj2BnJgyRxsQBSm/Kk9EGihnOy0bTNiaZiwEcd5vtTp8df3q8WdPDN/d0SDIi T8Vr3SIikplopi/aaRoMk9S0o1I9FMJU8QwHXXi/6W300+a5m+aaOqnvjVJ7c0hE h6tiS7g7IWHwlA1mTkm4+XNdQayUr43a7CTkBz+dYOA2qKOMfMwoWbIw82fwauKW M4tmxgx/XFKljbFfXWT3klBJlJL1i9Rpi4ilf0gvxkAdxXas++oQ3BHg23FwV7ze FyDIHfEU3DQkbcatu3iScJ5eH5B1PBbxdrkRlEIFzA5zl/3u7pEPmcbHNJAETdRb oVW6yY8TolDAPfgAqMcFC72kuxDj6Z0tLhB13f1o7fvtIVEoVDs2cBgNkf3r75tP LwyTzNTKy9rrIRJScJ/Ibb4XvsZHRLHSw9CNI/6qqMSVtiSuCBS/7kF0XGpr1FJe eael8oJJh2C8eDov6yyHGOixUuJR6rs/pp2YvvyWLKeMu8BN9AScFyFk6k4aT/ck /tEFNs3WyldNeIAw7lYAvj6qcJG1wqZkDT75x0qw+sTYJRREF7VPrdUGW+qfPFsn 626RnieO6ggYPq12DEb0aT8tdXESoVJcdpNp4NHoGUxD05p9mhsT1aFbocGVrpxa UpsOfPcHKHNQbmAuZE6P4LMa/UlEn1l1rDuKSCbmnBqVvfYr96IjsF4c+PZTBllF YJaz8XTeXvOvEuscbz8q+E7IJ+1VA5nosUYNd7u/LGN0Jg9jTn7HIzfQ4pKUV66r jZnnKOvU8AZLHcEbduBMvLvE/5IZro5OYlDa+odIXISTIRvHP9k+GbHyeBKQ1CLj UzVJAHyyu9g/J1b+QR5eyPDETkGhlnC7rpjvfqjwyKLfI80oVo/o2xV5K8dLNIFG FGLcGMil4pjojXyBv/bx0rIOdpeipusCOn/JNl/6o94AP2XMjWRtxz1A9Jygy+qZ x5yZxrOpKAhxSpyLi4af8fgqz16u/VLzfjBpIs7apNtLjbjv7qG5PXbT5I/RPPnl hl6YMQYsBc6+5RbaRIZ8bflcDNkm/ar/hb5j2fpVhhainL6BlNw7DWFg4XTCV0zg From eresrch at eskimo.com Thu Aug 22 06:48:22 2002 From: eresrch at eskimo.com (Mike Rosing) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 06:48:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the underground software vulnerability marketplace and its hazards (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Aug 2002, Eugen Leitl wrote: > If this kind of secret traffic is allowed to continue, it will pose a > very serious threat to our computer communications infrastructure. Sure looks like it. > iDEFENSE is offering a new alternative that appears far more dangerous > than either of the two previous paradigms. They want to be a buyer in > a marketplace for secret software vulnerability information, rewarding > discoverers of vulnerabilities with cash. Not that much cash. It's only $125 for an exploit. that's not much in $/hr of effort. > First, secret software vulnerability information will be available to > the highest bidder, and to nobody else. For reasons explained later, > I think the highest bidders will generally be organized crime > syndicates, although that will not be obvious to the sellers. governments have more cash. the highest bidders could use it as a way to keep track of who is doing what, since the web site says people who find exploits are given full credit. The mafiosi seem like the least of our problems with this. If I got paid, I wouldn't want anyone to have the ability to come find me! > Second, finding software vulnerabilities and keeping them secret will > become lucrative for many more talented people. The result will be > --- just as in the "responsible disclosure" days --- that the good > guys will remain vulnerable for months and years, while the majority > of current vulnerabilities are kept secret. Not at that rate of pay. Might be a good way to find talent tho. > I think the highest bidders will be those for whom early vulnerability > information is most lucrative --- the thieves who can use it to > execute the largest heists without getting caught. Inevitably, that > means organized crime syndicates, although the particular gangs who > are good at networked theft may not yet exist. Yes they exist, and most have 3 letter acronyms. Well, a few have numbers in there :-) A lot of government agencies need cash that their handlers won't give, so they go steal it. Since their jobs are breaking laws, nobody notices. > Right now, people who know how to find security exploits are either > motivated by personal interest in the subject, motivated by the public > interest, motivated by a desire for individual recognition, or > personally know criminals that benefit from their exploits. Creating > a marketplace in secret vulnerability information would vastly > increase the availability of that information to the people who can > afford to pay the most for it: spies, terrorists, and organized crime. > > Let's not let that happen. How? iDEFENSE isn't really breaking any laws, they are just immoral scum bags. Maybe the publication of the first person hunted down and executed by an angry government will slow down contributors? thanks for posting this, the net is getting more and more interesting :-) Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Thu Aug 22 07:49:29 2002 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 07:49:29 -0700 Subject: U.S. Military Uses the Force Message-ID: <200208221449.g7MEnTn01629@mailserver4.hushmail.com> [[I wonder if a similar techique can be used against bullets for personal armor or home defense.] >From Wired News -- <http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,54641,00.html> U.S. Military Uses the Force By Noah Shachtman One of the most dangerous and pervasive threats facing American and British troops in combat zones is a primitive grenade launcher that only sets your typical terrorist back about $10. The Anglo-American defense against this no-tech threat: an electrical force field that's costing hundreds of millions of dollars to develop. Fitted on light armored vehicles such as personnel carriers, the force field uses a series of charged metal plates to dissipate the effects of rocket-propelled grenades (RPGs), a weapon found by the thousands from Mogadishu to Kabul to Baghdad. ... Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com From 123 at 163.com Wed Aug 21 17:07:00 2002 From: 123 at 163.com (123 at 163.com) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 08:07:00 +0800 Subject: =?GB2312?B?sanBptOqz/q08tTszfjC59DCufM=?= Message-ID: <200208220006.g7M06cJ27172@locust.minder.net> 暴力营销打造网络新贵 暴力营销是由"FBG商业联盟"汇同国内著名营销专家、网络学者，根据国内企业设计情况推 出的一种全新的商务营销模式，具有"成本低、启动快、效果显著、可操作性强"的特点，特别 适用于国内广大中小企业、快速成长型企业、电子商务网站和SOHO自由职业人士、个体创业团 队。 "e酷暴力营销"是国内首套由"FBG商业联盟"正式授权推出的大型电子商务推广软件系列， 首批计划推出以下产品： 　　::e酷暴力广告：被誉为"史上最强悍的中文在线广告系统"：海量中文BBS数据库，超过三万 个纯中文目标论坛，是目前全球唯一能够实现中文论坛"万站群发"的电子商务推广系统；穿透 能力强，采用自主开发多种动态变换技术，能够成功发布新浪、西陆、263、嬴政、硅谷动力、 世界论坛等大型超人气网络论坛；稳定性好，独家采用多引擎发布技术，支持断点续发。 　　::e酷暴力邮箱：巨酷的全智能化电子邮件搜索系统，业内首家支持"KEYWORD"批量搜索， 全自动实现"靶标"式定向搜索，稳定性好，支持断点搜索。 　　::e酷暴力搜索：（即将推出） 　　::e酷暴力登录：（即将推出） 　　::e酷暴力邮件：（即将推出） FBG商业联盟同时计划推出"暴力营销"系列丛书 　　::《商战诡计》－－独一无二的方法往往能收到意想不到的效果 　　::《管理新脑》－－影响企业最深者莫过于企业的管理者 　　::《八百半连锁加盟草案》 　　::《商战赢家》－－只有赢家才能生存 　　::《营销天下》 　　::《管理高手》--162条顶尖高手的管理技巧 　　::《经营高手》－－一个小主意，往往会赢得无尽的胜券 　　::《营销X档案之市场黑洞》 　　::《营销x档案之兵行诡道》 　　::《广告x档案》 　　::《一分钟MBA之商战赢家》 　　::《一分钟MBA之管理新脑》 　　::《一分钟MBA之商业领袖》 　　::《一分钟MBA之经营黑洞》 更多资料，请浏览“酷客天下”网站 ===================================== = = 主力站点：http://www.eChinaEdu.com = 镜像站点：http://www.eChinaEdu.vicp.net = 论坛站点：http://qlong2008.xilubbs.com = ===================================== 本资料采用“暴力营销”电子商务推广系统发布 网络四大酷旦 暴力营销是用来赚钱的 魔鬼英语是用来出国的 数码酷龙是用来扮酷的 野蛮女友是用来HAPPY的 流氓兔子是用来PLAY的 From eresrch at eskimo.com Thu Aug 22 08:11:11 2002 From: eresrch at eskimo.com (Mike Rosing) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 08:11:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: U.S. Military Uses the Force In-Reply-To: <200208221449.g7MEnTn01629@mailserver4.hushmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Aug 2002 keyser-soze at hushmail.com wrote: > [[I wonder if a similar techique can be used against bullets for personal armor or home defense.] It also says: "Electric armor only weighs a ton or two," Not exactly something you can use for bullets :-) It sounds like it's just an MHD instability. The shaped charge of the RPG is a copper jet - so the high current pulse breaks it up. Fire 3 in a row and there's not much current left - depends on how they generate the current between the plates. So you might be able to spread out a bullet and reduce the impact on a kevlar shield. As it is now, the kevlar works amazingly well and is pretty light. And not very expensive either :-) Fun physics in any case. Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike From eugen at leitl.org Wed Aug 21 23:42:12 2002 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 08:42:12 +0200 (CEST) Subject: the underground software vulnerability marketplace and its hazards (fwd) Message-ID: -- -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://eugen.leitl.org 83E5CA02: EDE4 7193 0833 A96B 07A7 1A88 AA58 0E89 83E5 CA02 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 00:24:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Kragen Sitaker To: fork at xent.com Subject: the underground software vulnerability marketplace and its hazards On August 7th, an entity known as "iDEFENSE" sent out an announcement, which is appended to this email. Briefly, "iDEFENSE", which bills itself as "a global security intelligence company", is offering cash for information about security vulnerabilities in computer software that are not publicly known, especially if you promise not to tell anyone else. If this kind of secret traffic is allowed to continue, it will pose a very serious threat to our computer communications infrastructure. At the moment, the dominant paradigm for computer security research known as "full disclosure"; people who discover security vulnerabilities in software tell the vendor about them, and a short while later --- after the vendor has had a chance to fix the problem --- they publish the information, including code to exploit the vulnerability, if possible. This method has proven far superior to the old paradigm established by CERT in the late 1980s, which its proponents might call "responsible disclosure" --- never release working exploit code, and never release any information on the vulnerability before all vendors have released a patch. This procedure often left hundreds of thousands of computers vulnerable to known bugs for months or years while the vendors worked on features, and often, even after the patches were released, people wouldn't apply them because they didn't know how serious the problem was. The underground computer criminal community would often discover and exploit these same holes for months or years while the "responsible disclosure" process kept their victims, who had no connections in the underground, vulnerable. The problem with this is that vulnerabilities that are widely known are much less dangerous, because their victims can take steps to reduce their potential impact --- including disabling software, turning off vulnerable features, filtering traffic in transit, and detecting and responding to intrusions. They are therefore much less useful to would-be intruders. Also, software companies usually see security vulnerabilities in their software as PR problems, and so prefer to delay publication (and the expense of fixing the bugs) as long as possible. iDEFENSE is offering a new alternative that appears far more dangerous than either of the two previous paradigms. They want to be a buyer in a marketplace for secret software vulnerability information, rewarding discoverers of vulnerabilities with cash. Not long before, Snosoft, a group of security researchers evidently including some criminal elements, apparently made an offer to sell the secrecy of some software vulnerability information to the software vendor; specifically, they apparently made a private offer to Hewlett-Packard to keep a vulnerability in HP's Tru64 Unix secret if HP retained Snosoft's "consulting services". HP considered this extortion and responded with legal threats, and Snosoft published the information. If this is allowed to happen, it will cause two problems which, together, add up to a catastrophe. First, secret software vulnerability information will be available to the highest bidder, and to nobody else. For reasons explained later, I think the highest bidders will generally be organized crime syndicates, although that will not be obvious to the sellers. Second, finding software vulnerabilities and keeping them secret will become lucrative for many more talented people. The result will be --- just as in the "responsible disclosure" days --- that the good guys will remain vulnerable for months and years, while the majority of current vulnerabilities are kept secret. I've heard it argued that the highest bidders will generally be the vendors of the vulnerable software, but I don't think that's plausible. If someone can steal $20 000 because a software bug lets them, the software vendor is never held liable; often, in fact, the people who administer the software aren't liable, either --- when credit card data are stolen from an e-commerce site, for example. Knowing about a vulnerability before anyone else might save a web-site administrator some time, and it might save the software vendor some negative PR, but it can net the thief thousands of dollars. I think the highest bidders will be those for whom early vulnerability information is most lucrative --- the thieves who can use it to execute the largest heists without getting caught. Inevitably, that means organized crime syndicates, although the particular gangs who are good at networked theft may not yet exist. There might be the occasional case where a market leader, such as Microsoft, could make more money by giving their competitors bad PR than a gang could make by theft. Think of a remote-root hole in Samba, for example. Right now, people who know how to find security exploits are either motivated by personal interest in the subject, motivated by the public interest, motivated by a desire for individual recognition, or personally know criminals that benefit from their exploits. Creating a marketplace in secret vulnerability information would vastly increase the availability of that information to the people who can afford to pay the most for it: spies, terrorists, and organized crime. Let's not let that happen. This is the original iDEFENSE announcement: From: Sunil James [mailto:SJames at iDefense.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 12:32 PM Subject: Introducing iDEFENSE's Vulnerability Contributor Program Greetings, iDEFENSE is pleased to announce the official launch of its Vulnerability Contributor Program (VCP). The VCP pays contributors for the advance notification of vulnerabilities, exploit code and malicious code. iDEFENSE hopes you might consider contributing to the VCP. The following provides answers to some basic questions about the program: Q. How will it work? A. iDEFENSE understands the majority of security researchers do not publish security research for compensation; rather, it could be for any of a number of motivations, including the following: * Pure love of security research * The desire to protect against harm to targeted networks * The desire to urge vendors to fix their products * The publicity that often accompanies disclosure The VCP is for those who want to have their research made public to the Internet community, but who would also like to be paid for doing the work.The compensation will depend, among other things, on the following items: * The kind of information being shared (i.e. vulnerability or exploit) * The amount of detail and analysis provided * The potential severity level for the information shared * The types of applications, operating systems, and other software and hardware potentially affected * Verification by iDEFENSE Labs * The level of exclusivity, if any, for data granted to iDEFENSE Q. Who should contribute to the VCP? A. The VCP is open to any individual, security research group or other entity. Q. Why are you launching this program? A. Timeliness remains a key aspect in security intelligence. Contributions to some lists take time before publication to the public at large. More often, many of these services charge clients for access without paying the original contributor. Under the iDEFENSE program, the contributor is compensated, iDEFENSE Labs verifies the issue, and iDEFENSE clients and the public at large are warned in a timely manner. Q. Who gets the credit? A. The contributor is always credited for discovering the vulnerability or exploit information. Q. When can I contribute? The VCP is active. You are welcome to begin contributing today. To learn more, go to http://www.idefense.com/contributor.html. If you have questions or would like to sign up as a contributor to the VCP, please contact us at contributor at idefense.com. Regards, Sunil James Technical Analyst iDEFENSE "iDEFENSE is a global security intelligence company that proactively monitors sources throughout the world -- from technical vulnerabilities and hacker profiling to the global spread of viruses and other malicious code. The iALERT security intelligence service provides decision-makers, frontline security professionals and network administrators with timely access to actionable intelligence and decision support on cyber-related threats. iDEFENSE Labs is the research wing that verifies vulnerabilities, examines the behavior of exploits and other malicious code and discovers new software/hardware weaknesses in a controlled lab environment." http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork From nobody at dizum.com Wed Aug 21 23:50:08 2002 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 08:50:08 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Chaum's unpatented ecash scheme References: <3D639649.3080102@algroup.co.uk> Message-ID: <4b673c6027a4057d923e1ce155d5d036@dizum.com> Ben Laurie writes: > Note that the scheme as described (and corrected) is vulnerable to > marking by the bank, and so is not anonymous. This is discussed and > fixed in my paper on Lucre > (http://anoncvs.aldigital.co.uk/lucre/theory2.pdf). Actually the scheme described based on Chaum's talk (corrected for probable typos) is essentially what you describe in your paper as the Type II Defence, in section 5. Your analysis shows that it is not vulnerable to marking and is anonymous. Speaking of anonymous, you should give credit in your paper to Anonymous for discovering the possibility of marking Lucre coins, in a coderpunks posting at http://www.mail-archive.com/coderpunks at toad.com/msg02186.html, and for inventing the Type II Defence, both in the posting above and amplifed at http://www.mail-archive.com/coderpunks at toad.com/msg02323.html. It may seem pointless to credit anonymous postings, but it makes the historical record more clear. From rabbi at abditum.com Thu Aug 22 09:45:33 2002 From: rabbi at abditum.com (Len Sassaman) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 09:45:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Signing as one member of a set of keys In-Reply-To: <3D64F7C4.5030306@algroup.co.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Aug 2002, Ben Laurie wrote: > The version I posted does not appear to suffer from either of these > problems (but also does not verify). I just successfully compiled ringsig and verified the signature using the files at http://www.abditum.com/~rabbi/ringsig/ . --Len. From mv at cdc.gov Thu Aug 22 10:45:58 2002 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 10:45:58 -0700 Subject: U.S. Military Uses the Force Message-ID: <3D652356.78225A8D@cdc.gov> At 07:49 AM 8/22/02 -0700, keyser-soze at hushmail.com wrote: >[[I wonder if a similar techique can be used against bullets for personal armor or home defense.] Yes and the dogs don't piss on the rosebushes after the first time they bridge the caps... Bullets would be "anti-personnel artillery" and the article states that vaporizing doesn't work for artillery. So, um, no. I tend to wonder how this would work more than once, and suspect that merely disrupting the shaped charge or changing the stand-off distance is protective. As an aside, I wonder if there are scale problems with huge shaped charges; could a 100' diam 100' tall charge destroy a bunker 300' deep? (Supposing you could get the army engineers on the ground to build it.. a kinda military burning man I suppose..) >U.S. Military Uses the Force >One of the most dangerous and pervasive threats facing American and >British troops in combat zones is a primitive grenade launcher that only >sets your typical terrorist back about $10. Do you have to ask for them by name at Fry's? -MachEffectPunk From mv at cdc.gov Thu Aug 22 10:52:22 2002 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 10:52:22 -0700 Subject: U.S. Military Uses the Force Message-ID: <3D6524D6.FA23FCDE@cdc.gov> At 08:11 AM 8/22/02 -0700, Mike Rosing wrote: >It sounds like it's just an MHD instability. The shaped charge of the RPG The specific heat of Cu is heat of vaporization is and the melting point is and the metal is already liquid. The metal is grams of liquid Cu so how many joules does it take to vaporize it? And, where does the momentum of grams x m/sec go? Also, just out of curiousity, what are the health effects of finely dispersed Cu oxide ? Does anyone make liners out of DU? Yummy. From eresrch at eskimo.com Thu Aug 22 11:13:31 2002 From: eresrch at eskimo.com (Mike Rosing) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 11:13:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the underground software vulnerability marketplace and its hazards (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20020822165451.A1099142@exeter.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Aug 2002, Adam Back wrote: > Right. And I fail to see how any of this is dangerous. Depends on how it's used. Hammers can be dangerous. > Clearly people are free to sell information they create to anyone they > choose under any terms they choose. (For example the iDEFENSE promise > of the author to not otherwise reveal for 2 weeks to give iDEFENSE > some value.) Yup. I suspect they won't get paid until after the 2 weeks is up to ensure that too. > This commercialisation seems like a _good thing_ as it may lead to > more breaks being discovered, and hence more secure software. Maybe. > (It won't remain secret for very long -- given the existance of > anonymous remailers etc., but the time-delay in release allows the > information intermediary -- such as iDEFENSE -- to sell the > information to parties who would like it early, businesses for example > people with affected systems. Or al-quida like operations. By accident of course! > Criminal crackers who can exploit the information just assist in > setting a fair price and forcing vendors and businesses to recognise > the true value of the information. Bear in mind the seller can not > know or distinguish between a subscriber who wants the information for > their own defense (eg a bank or e-commerce site, managed security > service provider), and a cracker who intends to exploit the > information (criminal organisation, crackers for amusement or > discovery of further inforamtion, private investigators, government > agencies doing offensive information warfare domesticaly or > internationally). Seems like you're assuming the cracker is pointed at a specific target to begin with. I think it's more of a crap shoot, and iDEFENSE is hoping a few will be really worth while for the 100's that aren't. iDEFENSE has to find the subscriber after the fact, not before (I think). > I don't see any particular moral obligation for people who put their > own effort into finding a flaw to release it to everyone at the same > time. Surely they can release it earlier to people who pay them to > conduct their research, and by extension to people who act as > intermediaries for the purpose of negotiating better terms or being > able to package the stream of ongoing breaks into more comprehensive > subscription service. > > I think HP were wrong, and find their actions in trying to use legal > scare tactics reprehensible: they should either negotiate a price, or > wait for the information to become generally available. If I were HP I'd have done the same thing they did - why be pushed around when you can fight back? I think the crackers screwed up, they should have given a presentation to HP with a proof that there's a crack, and then request (politely) some compensation for where it was. by making it a reasonable request, HP saves engineering time and their software, and the crackers get into business. If they'd gone in with a "win-win" attitude, the crackers would have made money, HP would have saved a lot of money, and everyone would be a lot happier. "moral obligation" and "mental attitude" are not the same thing, but I think the right attitude would make the morals a lot simpler. So rather than paying paltry sums to crackers, iDEFENSE might do better as a agency for crackers. If they do the business to business end for the crackers, and negotiate contracts, then they get a cut, and the crackers get a lot more motivation to go find problems. I think everybody can win then, so long as the exploits are in fact published. Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike From eresrch at eskimo.com Thu Aug 22 11:26:00 2002 From: eresrch at eskimo.com (Mike Rosing) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 11:26:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: U.S. Military Uses the Force In-Reply-To: <3D6524D6.FA23FCDE@cdc.gov> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Aug 2002, Major Variola (ret) wrote: > The specific heat of Cu is heat of vaporization is and the > > melting point is and the metal is already liquid. The metal is > grams of liquid Cu so how many joules does it take to vaporize > it? A hell of a lot more than it takes to just make it squirm. > And, where does the momentum of grams x m/sec go? According to the article it leaves dents. So instead of a focused blast puncturing a hole, it gets splayed out all over the place. > Also, just out of curiousity, what are the health effects of finely > dispersed Cu oxide ? > Does anyone make liners out of DU? Yummy. Yeah, that's what makes the RPG a useful weapon now, isn't it. U238 shells do similar things, but it's the chemical reaction with the steel that's the suprise. the gassious U238 and steel inside the tank is the major nastyness. While I admit this is fun, I think we're kinda off topic :-) Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike From eresrch at eskimo.com Thu Aug 22 11:40:59 2002 From: eresrch at eskimo.com (Mike Rosing) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 11:40:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the underground software vulnerability marketplace and its hazards (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20020822141358.A75734@lightship.internal.homeport.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Aug 2002, Adam Shostack wrote: > Clearly, people should not be restricted from doing what they want > with information. However, if you are concerned about the state of > computer security, then I think encouraging more and better > communication amongst "white hats" is a good idea. Yes, I think all exploits need to be published. I'm not sure how soon is soon enough - a month from discovery to publication seems ok to me. but that's easy to argue with too. > (An interesting question is 'Is there a difference between selling > information you know you have and information you expect to have?' Hmmm... anyone want to create a futures market for code exploits? > which is what many security companies have been doing for a while: > Hiring the people who find exploits to find them for their commercial > profit. The difference is that those security companies paid salary, > not contracting rates.) My experience with contracting rates is much better than paid salary. the difference is that salary jobs are longer term, it's something a company wants to do for a long time. Contract jobs are short term. I think it's true that exploits will always be there to find, and it definitly in a security company's best interest to have people continuously looking for problems. Who they tell and when becomes an interesting topic in and of itself, but I think it's important that all security problems be published within a reasonable time. Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Aug 22 02:05:47 2002 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Canon Blge Bayii) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 12:05:47 +0300 Subject: RENKLI FAKSINIZ VAR MI? Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4983 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wolf at priori.net Thu Aug 22 13:44:13 2002 From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 13:44:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Signing as one member of a set of keys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 Comment: No comment. hIwDAAAAAAAAAAABBACXa1g/ETKx4k5FJBJJDLC9wJPTYAwSiw+Kv6L+KstGkSaK HBPc2HcG0Wpp1NFH6F5TiD3THVSgNQ/l0tnJ4rf9Jvx+QXqUBKhB/jyLrhWyPnV1 FPIjlcvOxhJvEzLMPKkUuxKmHX0ialf5pVVbI+1ElYGnZfPELQT3SIIAhjSvToSM AwAAAAAAAAAAAQP9Hjl4AyiW7anLgKSyMXcyIgDnMDZ5uJeqozUuHBAO1JB1N7B3 KA9DK8Dku5rcXsHDbP+YPK+LMw6jiC3/Xwxm5qgCG8xXT4VsOvtP2pIub4P1OTNE e4zgiBzfsvLSaiuSmzL4fp89xLwUXGbNkFPwIpgR2jQ7PHCQRgg8z0Uha4+EjAMA AAAAAAAAAAED/187AXsAndPtXyYfg9Cx0tCgSQyf7+v6uB4vTUqhsfeoeUoor6Q6 IhlmCUR4OU7OqJ9rJBu+aTceUlhbaRNjV+dOAZJPzEbVfaaswFOH6450YeGo5OpB YhfRdd4cBwK3OBmDNPyg1iPqAVJjlH7+VpDjoBeudYNY/OEBbYor5bYfhIwDAAAA AAAAAAABA/4niodad3++A8MLMi3Y87/ECzpLefjdT9Nx3ufWM1lMSl9an4KtBUIe iyrSVdZCiwT/9z9IuZWVLZkufDSpIVgOPmsKxKQnIRslRItJmEiMijNG2FnzUZMP 5dbZ7lKH/vzTE41MmSF3Hx4I/7sbZPq6wjBgWAD9Hg8NKF1JQRygioSMAwAAAAAA AAAAAQP/cuj9ZUeH2P9aUk4Wf8RWsGCP3xGclN5zaLftZ9at0n02T/JORJy12moM 18cS0SVD5mmOWFaZYfY0I7bOfIqibWxvcJqhkvsWXr97sUB4hQAaQkyONJHW1WZy qmyTrtwyE3SxPaQEivRAFAANOssGedtOnMGXnFu6DUhDX8QOT8eEjAMAAAAAAAAA AAED/iVn6BVAM5VUctty3WKgFJc6dpIznTDP+0U0mXRc2eUWeVdJLYU/k9DVtfP8 bsURVriYd90UrqTGnQc5hnwxgM/BqC4SDb81XwLfRAcgI8ljUhXR4H8flUIBCFoe Nfgfthla07TMWg/3KazGut0grqOcltPSqv06LnAiUWLdwfivhIwDAAAAAAAAAAAB BACZ/TW3Giz9c9xoonDCjWlbtLmFsUGfWVAgqHy5WdGW77D2/Q4kdm7TRHIZ5Lik 8L+iJ63MQtQIDhLP+DZ7A/VkT3Iu6M/3jyx/5FyK4VqGEwB6LtDTZvjFJWoL7AZe x88oK53SMEMXAiWYcObUIjDyr2+KrUMbtoYgYu1xzKTaN4UBDAMAAAAAAAAAAAEI AKzM+qPX99kYc4zGSqEjhUWLQsNbJix22F+CfgLFnX1CnBon+HUXPweUCJhpZvUL i14TAZ+HV99PI+hbANryTa5DlaggYvxQMycLk3Pk1rJ+noq+EJaAt0Phzcc8HbZ/ xq/tQp1Nqhczhx6g5sXduU66yuoQFS9yiX3zLqnLGpKQSMt3WtTOfJiz35tlBVUh lygREJ6w4wqh5NgOUh+Ry/v6opmTbI6FLuNIIXFU2hfR8O2A9MbgdsUstqcaf70C NOSpXvAxQlp6+XNcNtTidehdQ/aKGHjJQxzLYAzykF7ShAwIWFgxw1yOhtam65W9 tOCCKzCZjGXHlQDQE2mDWofJ6Tjllmzs31kUPj9Qcyr6zDlxuevC82FSFmoOna4V wgyPRGFFwE/QJdrP1fcCSRpiPmiNUafwmScEV2Q2pC3p7P/Oy8GI8KdH6ulYlHHx lvy+bu+YTiClDpYdrwithqRPWAQupDzqPn6MmMJ9oP0EQzbg1z5JLeswgQ1/m67n Dbhr8+sYo3Hs3MisQonp3zuUYsT4Y+pNvOTND6i1selPs1X9BHc1RZTkuXsG2JU+ vIpOxpN72EaddGSjb9SGxBkHHDb5cxKhMrhowqBdIqjPHYK2KVhHsE0XWoy2KNMw LCDMsl42ZE6i6+c9ViQrg84x39mo7KYCMjXCejeE2F/k0PV+fTZY+FfuYn2eNhr4 wzFfLwRF9jnpl0tDcX0VoVTcP2WbLH/aYObikTxfT2D4dstQ1AdJNcA1U5wqIHBx NNZ0ueK4FmZAGzNrPNQjBZkZR7PBWWKhkIVz80da+ZszaoVECWp1HVCmwE+fgcZ7 2cia9Bexnmollc3upYqYD2Lu9l4DddQTQXIrrGfBC+pjzDxbnDiXOz9eAXvu1kFc P3wLaXYJIRFNxocYnIh015u17crideRIKaXHseb4O353UtOl9HsLTkVNMTzAK4n/ ILMEUaBUq5L8sFS36UTrFe6xlhf2aTebdrEFcxuhtSraHkP7NfJ+QsrsR/5LVwtU 53YwwEg+5o7TGvTAS9dWRFCvkSpCjMgGeGIzNbdj06uLsYYcK4LcpJ7OPYMi56aQ n87V+ZTcEx7/01tUMTqAYHrr7v1LM54a87Nox4mZ4/zY5oT8f0AqdU9kCfkTxSzj 1CxMViFgVu8N79w66Fj/ovPTwj2EKXspWzewrDodIsDWSPU0eMZVpJtDwyCOg385 eYpRRUslyt7HhCjS5s5PIGSpKVzhHXJog806qBJTRe1sVVvjjUNLNjCEoCBJRLcY pSPHZRggXLwY9BZQaQNX6I7KSxxLCK0spsX4GGhfoS2tRMq3cmzsZuzIQs8y6OoJ pCmfuaFH7VshcBugy+ZRyjBxgTTZGc/fTR2sz4w= =2IHX -----END PGP MESSAGE----- From wolf at priori.net Thu Aug 22 13:56:27 2002 From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 13:56:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: gpg anonymous recipient decryption Message-ID: I discovered just a moment ago that gpg's method of decrypting PGP messages encrypted to anonymous recipients is somewhat obnoxious to deal with. gpg prompts the user for his passphrase for his key *each time* he encounters a packet "encrypted to keyid 0x00000000." When a message has been encrypted to multiple recipients, this becomes rather tedious. If he has multiple keys on his private keyring, even more so. I suggest that, rather than prompt for the passphrase and decrypt the private key each time gpg tries to decrypt a new session key, gpg should try all of them in succession until it either succeeds or fails with that key (and then, only if necessary, prompt for the passphrase for the next key.) -MW- From adam at homeport.org Thu Aug 22 11:13:58 2002 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 14:13:58 -0400 Subject: the underground software vulnerability marketplace and its hazards (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20020822165451.A1099142@exeter.ac.uk>; from adam@cypherspace.org on Thu, Aug 22, 2002 at 04:54:51PM +0100 References: <20020822165451.A1099142@exeter.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20020822141358.A75734@lightship.internal.homeport.org> Research into defining and addressing classes of vulnerabilities can't happen without libraries of available vulnerability code. I can think of three researchers into automated methods for addressing vulnerabilities who griped, uninvited, about the quality of the existing vulnerability sites. Doing research into a set requires that you have enough examples, in the open, that you can define a set, and that the set is added to from time to time so you can make and test predictions. I feel fairly confident in saying that without full disclosure, we wouldn't have Stackguard, ITS4, Nissus, or snort. And the security admin's job would be a lot harder. Clearly, people should not be restricted from doing what they want with information. However, if you are concerned about the state of computer security, then I think encouraging more and better communication amongst "white hats" is a good idea. (An interesting question is 'Is there a difference between selling information you know you have and information you expect to have?' which is what many security companies have been doing for a while: Hiring the people who find exploits to find them for their commercial profit. The difference is that those security companies paid salary, not contracting rates.) Adam On Thu, Aug 22, 2002 at 04:54:51PM +0100, Adam Back wrote: | Right. And I fail to see how any of this is dangerous. | | Clearly people are free to sell information they create to anyone they | choose under any terms they choose. (For example the iDEFENSE promise | of the author to not otherwise reveal for 2 weeks to give iDEFENSE | some value.) | | This commercialisation seems like a _good thing_ as it may lead to | more breaks being discovered, and hence more secure software. | | (It won't remain secret for very long -- given the existance of | anonymous remailers etc., but the time-delay in release allows the | information intermediary -- such as iDEFENSE -- to sell the | information to parties who would like it early, businesses for example | people with affected systems. | | Criminal crackers who can exploit the information just assist in | setting a fair price and forcing vendors and businesses to recognise | the true value of the information. Bear in mind the seller can not | know or distinguish between a subscriber who wants the information for | their own defense (eg a bank or e-commerce site, managed security | service provider), and a cracker who intends to exploit the | information (criminal organisation, crackers for amusement or | discovery of further inforamtion, private investigators, government | agencies doing offensive information warfare domesticaly or | internationally). | | I don't see any particular moral obligation for people who put their | own effort into finding a flaw to release it to everyone at the same | time. Surely they can release it earlier to people who pay them to | conduct their research, and by extension to people who act as | intermediaries for the purpose of negotiating better terms or being | able to package the stream of ongoing breaks into more comprehensive | subscription service. | | I think HP were wrong, and find their actions in trying to use legal | scare tactics reprehensible: they should either negotiate a price, or | wait for the information to become generally available. | | Adam | | On Thu, Aug 22, 2002 at 08:02:16AM -0700, Steve Schear wrote: | > >On August 7th, an entity known as "iDEFENSE" sent out an announcement, | > >which is appended to this email. Briefly, "iDEFENSE", which bills | > >itself as "a global security intelligence company", is offering cash | > >for information about security vulnerabilities in computer software | > >that are not publicly known, especially if you promise not to tell | > >anyone else. | > > | > >If this kind of secret traffic is allowed to continue, it will pose a | > >very serious threat to our computer communications infrastructure. | > | > A more serious and credible threat would be an escrow/verification service | > which could support blacknet style auctions. It could also make the | > hacker's time valuable enough to support a decent lifestyle fostering an | > cottage industry. | -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From ben at algroup.co.uk Thu Aug 22 06:42:17 2002 From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 14:42:17 +0100 Subject: Signing as one member of a set of keys References: <27086e7b67e31982ea9e9b6c22448da4@remailer.xganon.com> Message-ID: <3D64EA39.7020800@algroup.co.uk> Anonymous wrote: >>>*** COULD SOMEONE PLEASE FOLLOW THE STEPS ABOVE AND PUT THE ringsig.c, >>>ringsign, ringver, AND sigring.pgp FILES ON A WEB PAGE SO THAT PEOPLE >>>CAN DOWNLOAD THEM WITHOUT HAVING TO GO THROUGH ALL THESE STEPS? *** >> >>Once it works, I'll happily do that, but... >> >> >>>6. Finally, the verification step: run the ringver perl script, giving the >>>PGP key file created in step 5 as an argument, and giving it the ringsig.c >>>file as standard input: >>> >>>./ringver sigring.pgp < ringsig.c >>> >>>This should print the message "Good signature". >> >>ben at scuzzy:~/tmp/multisign$ ./ringver pubring.pkr < testwhole >>ERROR: Bad signature > > > Could you post the files anyway on a web page, then the author can check > them against his copies and see which are corrupted? http://www.alcrypto.co.uk/ringsign/ Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ Available for contract work. "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From ben at algroup.co.uk Thu Aug 22 07:40:04 2002 From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 15:40:04 +0100 Subject: Signing as one member of a set of keys References: Message-ID: <3D64F7C4.5030306@algroup.co.uk> Anonymous wrote: > Len Sassaman has put the ringsig program up at > >>http://www.abditum.com/~rabbi/ringsig/ > > > First, the ring signature portion has successfully been repaired from > the truncation imposed by the anon remailer in the original post. > > Second, unfortunately all of the tabs have been converted to spaces. > This will prevent the sig from verifying. > > Third, a number of the lines have been wrapped. This will also prevent > the verification from going through. The version I posted does not appear to suffer from either of these problems (but also does not verify). Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ Available for contract work. "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From ben at algroup.co.uk Thu Aug 22 07:43:21 2002 From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 15:43:21 +0100 Subject: Chaum's unpatented ecash scheme References: <3D639649.3080102@algroup.co.uk> <4b673c6027a4057d923e1ce155d5d036@dizum.com> Message-ID: <3D64F889.1080204@algroup.co.uk> Nomen Nescio wrote: > Ben Laurie writes: > > >>Note that the scheme as described (and corrected) is vulnerable to >>marking by the bank, and so is not anonymous. This is discussed and >>fixed in my paper on Lucre >>(http://anoncvs.aldigital.co.uk/lucre/theory2.pdf). > > > Actually the scheme described based on Chaum's talk (corrected for > probable typos) is essentially what you describe in your paper as the > Type II Defence, in section 5. Your analysis shows that it is not > vulnerable to marking and is anonymous. > > Speaking of anonymous, you should give credit in your paper to Anonymous > for discovering the possibility of marking Lucre coins, in a coderpunks > posting at > http://www.mail-archive.com/coderpunks at toad.com/msg02186.html, and for > inventing the Type II Defence, both in the posting above and amplifed > at http://www.mail-archive.com/coderpunks at toad.com/msg02323.html. > > It may seem pointless to credit anonymous postings, but it makes the > historical record more clear. Anonymous _is_ creditted, but I can add the specific URLs. Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ Available for contract work. "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From ben at algroup.co.uk Thu Aug 22 08:19:42 2002 From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 16:19:42 +0100 Subject: Chaum's unpatented ecash scheme References: <3D639649.3080102@algroup.co.uk> <4b673c6027a4057d923e1ce155d5d036@dizum.com> Message-ID: <3D65010E.2060208@algroup.co.uk> Nomen Nescio wrote: > Ben Laurie writes: > > >>Note that the scheme as described (and corrected) is vulnerable to >>marking by the bank, and so is not anonymous. This is discussed and >>fixed in my paper on Lucre >>(http://anoncvs.aldigital.co.uk/lucre/theory2.pdf). > > > Actually the scheme described based on Chaum's talk (corrected for > probable typos) is essentially what you describe in your paper as the > Type II Defence, in section 5. Your analysis shows that it is not > vulnerable to marking and is anonymous. > > Speaking of anonymous, you should give credit in your paper to Anonymous > for discovering the possibility of marking Lucre coins, in a coderpunks > posting at > http://www.mail-archive.com/coderpunks at toad.com/msg02186.html, and for > inventing the Type II Defence, both in the posting above and amplifed > at http://www.mail-archive.com/coderpunks at toad.com/msg02323.html. > > It may seem pointless to credit anonymous postings, but it makes the > historical record more clear. I've updated the paper (the update also corrects a slight typo in one of the equations). Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ Available for contract work. "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From adam at cypherspace.org Thu Aug 22 08:54:51 2002 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 16:54:51 +0100 Subject: the underground software vulnerability marketplace and its hazards (fwd) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020822075450.0464b388@pop3.lvcm.com>; from schear@lvcm.com on Thu, Aug 22, 2002 at 08:02:16AM -0700 References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020822075450.0464b388@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <20020822165451.A1099142@exeter.ac.uk> Right. And I fail to see how any of this is dangerous. Clearly people are free to sell information they create to anyone they choose under any terms they choose. (For example the iDEFENSE promise of the author to not otherwise reveal for 2 weeks to give iDEFENSE some value.) This commercialisation seems like a _good thing_ as it may lead to more breaks being discovered, and hence more secure software. (It won't remain secret for very long -- given the existance of anonymous remailers etc., but the time-delay in release allows the information intermediary -- such as iDEFENSE -- to sell the information to parties who would like it early, businesses for example people with affected systems. Criminal crackers who can exploit the information just assist in setting a fair price and forcing vendors and businesses to recognise the true value of the information. Bear in mind the seller can not know or distinguish between a subscriber who wants the information for their own defense (eg a bank or e-commerce site, managed security service provider), and a cracker who intends to exploit the information (criminal organisation, crackers for amusement or discovery of further inforamtion, private investigators, government agencies doing offensive information warfare domesticaly or internationally). I don't see any particular moral obligation for people who put their own effort into finding a flaw to release it to everyone at the same time. Surely they can release it earlier to people who pay them to conduct their research, and by extension to people who act as intermediaries for the purpose of negotiating better terms or being able to package the stream of ongoing breaks into more comprehensive subscription service. I think HP were wrong, and find their actions in trying to use legal scare tactics reprehensible: they should either negotiate a price, or wait for the information to become generally available. Adam On Thu, Aug 22, 2002 at 08:02:16AM -0700, Steve Schear wrote: > >On August 7th, an entity known as "iDEFENSE" sent out an announcement, > >which is appended to this email. Briefly, "iDEFENSE", which bills > >itself as "a global security intelligence company", is offering cash > >for information about security vulnerabilities in computer software > >that are not publicly known, especially if you promise not to tell > >anyone else. > > > >If this kind of secret traffic is allowed to continue, it will pose a > >very serious threat to our computer communications infrastructure. > > A more serious and credible threat would be an escrow/verification service > which could support blacknet style auctions. It could also make the > hacker's time valuable enough to support a decent lifestyle fostering an > cottage industry. --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From marcnarc at rsasecurity.com Thu Aug 22 17:22:06 2002 From: marcnarc at rsasecurity.com (Marc Branchaud) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 17:22:06 -0700 Subject: the underground software vulnerability marketplace and its hazards (fwd) References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020822075450.0464b388@pop3.lvcm.com> <20020822165451.A1099142@exeter.ac.uk> <3D65306E.9090708@algroup.co.uk> Message-ID: <3D65802E.8040000@rsasecurity.com> Ben Laurie wrote: > > Incidentally I was put under a lot of pressure when releasing the > OpenSSL advisory a few weeks ago to allow CERT to notify "vendors" > before going on general release. I have a big problem with this - who > decides who are "vendors", and how? And why should I abide by their > decision? Why should I pick CERT and not some other route to release the > information? I agree that such pressure is pretty reprehensible. As others in this thread have said, it's your decision how you want to publish the information. People should respect that decision. However... > Also, if the "vendors" were playing the free software game properly, > they wouldn't _need_ advance notification - their customers would have > source, and could apply the patches, just like real humans. I agree with that to a certain extent. However, we (RSA) recently had to release patches to several versions of Xcert's old Sentry CA because of the OpenSSL fixes. I do not know how our customers would have been helped by having the source. First, I want to point out that Xcert's use of OpenSSL was entirely in agreement with OpenSSL's license. The fact that we built closed-source product atop OpenSSL was playing the game properly, as far as the rules were laid out. (If you think OpenSSL's users should behave differently, change the license!) Even if we gave our customers our source code, we had made a few changes to the OpenSSL code for use in Sentry CA. Mostly to deal with things like PKCS#11 and ECC (we used OpenSSL for crypto, some ASN.1 and SSL). So patches don't necessarily apply perfectly cleanly (though these ones did). It seems unreasonable for us to expect our customers to make the appropriate changes themselves. (We even had to make our own patch for a particularly early version of Sentry CA that used a verison of OpenSSL that did not get a patch from openssl.org. There's nothing like money to bring out the whore in all of us...) Also, one of the selling points of Sentry CA was that it's thoroughly tested. We had to make sure that the patches didn't break the product. Again, we can't really expect our customers to do that themselves. Now, I'm a big fan of open-source software, and am very sympathetic to its ideas in many ways. All I'm trying to point out is that the issues aren't necessarily so black-and-white. We certainly could have benefitted from advanced notice of the flaws, but I personally think that "vendors" shouldn't get first dibs at any patches. That said, I don't really know what we could've done with the news while waiting for OpenSSL's patches to come out. So the way things happened is probably the fairest outcome possible. It was a rough couple of weeks for us, though, getting our own fixes together while OpenSSL was sitting pretty. Customers don't seem to like _knowing_ they're vulnerable, for some reason... (I speak for myself, and these opinions are my own, and I might even be lying about everything.) M. --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From ben at algroup.co.uk Thu Aug 22 11:41:50 2002 From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 19:41:50 +0100 Subject: the underground software vulnerability marketplace and its hazards (fwd) References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020822075450.0464b388@pop3.lvcm.com> <20020822165451.A1099142@exeter.ac.uk> Message-ID: <3D65306E.9090708@algroup.co.uk> Adam Back wrote: > I think HP were wrong, and find their actions in trying to use legal > scare tactics reprehensible: they should either negotiate a price, or > wait for the information to become generally available. Amen. Incidentally I was put under a lot of pressure when releasing the OpenSSL advisory a few weeks ago to allow CERT to notify "vendors" before going on general release. I have a big problem with this - who decides who are "vendors", and how? And why should I abide by their decision? Why should I pick CERT and not some other route to release the information? Also, if the "vendors" were playing the free software game properly, they wouldn't _need_ advance notification - their customers would have source, and could apply the patches, just like real humans. Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ Available for contract work. "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From eugen at leitl.org Thu Aug 22 11:57:44 2002 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 20:57:44 +0200 (CEST) Subject: New Palladium FAQ available In-Reply-To: <3ede23f1bf3f47e4108ec740a392452d@aarg.net> References: <3ede23f1bf3f47e4108ec740a392452d@aarg.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Aug 2002, AARG! Anonymous wrote: > Hopefully Microsoft will continue to release information about Palladium. > That should help to bring some of the more outrageous rumors under > control. Fat chance. For some strange reason you must have missed that no one trusts a single sentence coming from Redmond, rightfully suspecting it has been cleared by if not originated in the local Ministry for Propaganda and Disinfo. We knew which party line you're relaying, but you shouldn't come on so heavy. Godwin this, Godwin that, in this particular set of forums you'd really have a far easier time channelling Dr. Goebbels. --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From adam at homeport.org Thu Aug 22 20:25:38 2002 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 23:25:38 -0400 Subject: FISA rejects DOJ interpretation of PATRIOT act Message-ID: <20020822232538.A80628@lightship.internal.homeport.org> > The U.S. Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, which has not > publicly disclosed a ny of its rulings in nearly two decades, > rejected some of the Ashcroft guidelines in May as "not reasonably > designed" to safeguard the privacy of Americans. http://salon.com/politics/wire/2002/08/22/ashcroft/index.html -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From bmueller24 at firemail.de Thu Aug 22 15:52:52 2002 From: bmueller24 at firemail.de (USED fORMWORK) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 00:52:52 +0200 Subject: Used Formwork Message-ID: <200208222249.g7MMnXP3028208@ak47.algebra.com> Gebrauchte Peri Doka Thyssen Huennebeck Shalungen Gebrauchte Peri Doka Thyssen Huennebeck Shalungen Gebrauchte Baumashinenboerse Gebrauchte Baumashinenboerse Gebrauchte Peri Doka Thyssen Huennebeck Shalunge From frantz at pwpconsult.com Fri Aug 23 08:35:16 2002 From: frantz at pwpconsult.com (Bill Frantz) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 08:35:16 -0700 Subject: Privacy-enhancing uses for TCPA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1:55 PM -0400 8/3/02, AARG!Anonymous wrote: >Here's one more example, which I think is quite amazing: untraceable >digital cash with full anonymity, without blinding or even any >cryptography at all! (Excepting of course the standard TCPA pieces like >SSL and secure storage and attestation.) > >The idea is, again, trivial. Making a withdrawal, the client sends the >user's password and account ID to the bank (this information is kept in >secure storage). The bank approves, and the client increments the local >"wallet" by that amount (also kept in secure storage). To make a payment, >use the anonymous network for transport, and just send a message telling >how much is being paid! The recipient increments his wallet by that >amount and the sender decrements his. Deposit works analogously to >withdrawal. Note that if the user can modify the wallet, a "fat, dumb, and happy" implementation may be vulnerable to the following attacks. Attack 1: (1) Withdraw $0.01 from the bank. (2) Change a random bit in the encrypted wallet. (Picking the bit to change will be easier if the storage format in known.) (3) Fire up the application as see how much money you have. Attack 2: (1) Withdraw many $$$ from the bank. (2) Copy the wallet. (3) Deposit the $$$ back in the bank. (4) Restore the wallet using the copy. While there are certainly ways to notice modifications to the wallet, and prevent the replay attack, they result in considerable additional complexity for what was a very simple implementation Cheers - Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Frantz | The principal effect of| Periwinkle -- Consulting (408)356-8506 | DMCA/CBDTPA is to | 16345 Englewood Ave. frantz at pwpconsult.com | prevent fair use. | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA From hrqhtsgs at prodigy.com Fri Aug 23 07:21:31 2002 From: hrqhtsgs at prodigy.com (Ahmet Aykac) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 10:21:31 -0400 Subject: Ariv hazr Message-ID: TrMelodi, K�r�k linkli �al��mayan ve birtek mp3 � indirirken bile insanlar� kahreden s�zde mp3 sitelerine alternatif olarak sizler i�in �zenle haz�rlanm��t�r. Her ya�tan her kesimden m�ziksevere hitap edebilmek i�in tasarlanm�� 13 GB l�k dev Mp3 listesiyle s�n�f�nda rakipsiz olacak �ekilde donat�lm�� ve siz m�zikseverlerin hizmetine sunulmu�tur. http://www.trmelodi.com adresindeki dev ar�ivimizde sizi bekleyen en sevdi�iniz sanat��lar�n en sevdi�iniz �ark�lar�n� birka� dakika i�inde bilgisayar�n�za indirin ve keyifle dinlemeye ba�lay�n. �yi E�lenceler.. http://www.trmelodi.com From ben at algroup.co.uk Fri Aug 23 06:00:10 2002 From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 14:00:10 +0100 Subject: the underground software vulnerability marketplace and its hazards (fwd) References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020822075450.0464b388@pop3.lvcm.com> <20020822165451.A1099142@exeter.ac.uk> <3D65306E.9090708@algroup.co.uk> <3D65802E.8040000@rsasecurity.com> Message-ID: <3D6631DA.5040004@algroup.co.uk> Marc Branchaud wrote: > Ben Laurie wrote: > >>Incidentally I was put under a lot of pressure when releasing the >>OpenSSL advisory a few weeks ago to allow CERT to notify "vendors" >>before going on general release. I have a big problem with this - who >>decides who are "vendors", and how? And why should I abide by their >>decision? Why should I pick CERT and not some other route to release the >>information? > > > I agree that such pressure is pretty reprehensible. As others in this > thread have said, it's your decision how you want to publish the > information. People should respect that decision. > > However... > > >>Also, if the "vendors" were playing the free software game properly, >>they wouldn't _need_ advance notification - their customers would have >>source, and could apply the patches, just like real humans. > > > I agree with that to a certain extent. However, we (RSA) recently had > to release patches to several versions of Xcert's old Sentry CA because > of the OpenSSL fixes. I do not know how our customers would have been > helped by having the source. > > First, I want to point out that Xcert's use of OpenSSL was entirely in > agreement with OpenSSL's license. The fact that we built closed-source > product atop OpenSSL was playing the game properly, as far as the rules > were laid out. (If you think OpenSSL's users should behave differently, > change the license!) I have two points to make about this: a) We can't change the licence (until we rewrite the whole thing). b) I like BSD-style licences because it means people get to use the software even if they are doing the wrong thing - but I do hope they'll see the light in the end and do the right thing. > Even if we gave our customers our source code, we had made a few changes > to the OpenSSL code for use in Sentry CA. Mostly to deal with things > like PKCS#11 and ECC (we used OpenSSL for crypto, some ASN.1 and SSL). Correct answer: contribute the patches back to OpenSSL, then you don't have this problem. > So patches don't necessarily apply perfectly cleanly (though these ones > did). It seems unreasonable for us to expect our customers to make the > appropriate changes themselves. (We even had to make our own patch for > a particularly early version of Sentry CA that used a verison of OpenSSL > that did not get a patch from openssl.org. There's nothing like money > to bring out the whore in all of us...) That's probably fuller of holes than I care to think about. > Also, one of the selling points of Sentry CA was that it's thoroughly > tested. We had to make sure that the patches didn't break the product. > Again, we can't really expect our customers to do that themselves. Vulnerable or potentially flakey would be their choice until you've done your testing. I know what I would choose. > Now, I'm a big fan of open-source software, and am very sympathetic to > its ideas in many ways. All I'm trying to point out is that the issues > aren't necessarily so black-and-white. We certainly could have > benefitted from advanced notice of the flaws, but I personally think > that "vendors" shouldn't get first dibs at any patches. That said, I > don't really know what we could've done with the news while waiting for > OpenSSL's patches to come out. There would have been patches, too, of course. > So the way things happened is probably > the fairest outcome possible. It was a rough couple of weeks for us, > though, getting our own fixes together while OpenSSL was sitting pretty. > Customers don't seem to like _knowing_ they're vulnerable, for some > reason... Because they know that the attackers know, too, of course. Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ Available for contract work. "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From AmericasLender6352j38 at msn.com Thu Aug 22 19:40:35 2002 From: AmericasLender6352j38 at msn.com (AmericasLender6352j38 at msn.com) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 14:40:35 +1200 Subject: Bad Credit OK! 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To be removed from our email list please reply with remove as the subject and also stating email address if different from the one you are using, thank you. Computer Developments UK, Waterside Court, Witan Way, Witney, Oxfordshire, OX28 6FE Telephone: 01993 849200 Fax: 0870 458 2385 Email:mailto:sales at cd-uk.net From info at tobaccodemon.com Fri Aug 23 10:15:17 2002 From: info at tobaccodemon.com (Sales Department) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 19:15:17 +0200 Subject: Low Price Tobacco Message-ID: <200208231711.g7NHBuJ26062@locust.minder.net> Dear Sir / Madam If you are fed up of being 'ripped off' by the British government every time you buy your tobacco, then you should visit our website, where you can now buy 4 cartons of cigarettes, or 40 pouches of rolling tobacco from as little as 170 Euros (approx 105 pounds), inclusive of delivery by registered air mail from our office in Spain. Why pay more??? Visit our website at http://www.tobaccodemon.com/?ID=2 Best regards Sales Department Tobacco Demon Spain xay1941001y From wolf at priori.net Fri Aug 23 19:33:25 2002 From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 19:33:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Signing as one member of a set of keys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 Comment: No comment. hIwDqBMDr1ghTDcBA/948ibHx0WPi4G5EnT+8YoC9DxBxfCCs2M+DDmoR5PGxU6+ n/o2vmWpG1p6jJnshKtnNtvvjjaJaJJoc9ZvyQz8SWRImlOjQQcInJ+ZKEzOIR2O UIEdBhN1eEpqnMz7aP9oJLHElLoH3RXDCLX5I1EbLJaJF+GpdMSiKQ+7yZMeEYSM Aw/D7AL7u4qxAQP/Wnzkv/8FpxwH7xSVTL2zmiV2ezRcU5TCZ7UBi6RtZaWVv8EG HekGDcOCWLM6qIeeg78fw7+7AagvwHSc52Q/7HUVQAopUaZ2RzxgbBE6NzARWbcu ADS4Y9WX86viU9Lktx16/DEkwznsJ9bsTQ2gUaHOoibpQqTDrx4k9VNmryuEjAM1 m0h9yAAr0QED/1aPAz9hrACXxI7L4uNawKgUL2HNnKIAXuEXP23GG4jgbbdplBfT EUUSXeN2dbYjTpPxxCV8ItACQzTa4faPmG8tyEfFrN9DPMrGnWMx/Pq94qCqlMza jP2oeJvBrsBn4ldc0z11Bjomd4pb0Gx5ORYujcc/FBfzARW6tTTBkxV/hIwDGwgM RScZrzUBA/0e8ICAbmZsS6qxV4ofqph1pit+rqzZReWs8GDw16gEScQw8HcyJvZZ lgTSE7nXPzpOAmfwbWIvoP31tdm3LqWZGFmK3jOCH39xvwrhg3e/P87z7cqHY91r XAHBKBrITWvhb+If/crJQO5Bv6vsb4ky2Ak1XWJ6tbFbq1HQVgaiMISMA0ZRiTEr SPb1AQP+MNDpKxz+fU4/Cnu6099Ai3IUX4znggWPpEjq42ZRduOv17VG5rno3c4N cpV1QxGX2Puh1PQQWG4djzdKTyY+C3AX15CcEnuD/jpdrohbxBzXejPZtjlzP+J6 lnzbaQgPcbiOakpPuzPOblA46T11XIH0FX8k8QFglemoKZcYxguEjANVZJN3Wse4 ZQED/iN9IlXE2MRv8LUyyShSHfJOQD5JV1e+//M+1HmkJn1Vlvk9Zm7cv6pRUBM2 H09QVesXF8dVNE387OKxqtHvfC7/RWMNMcl9XyD9USShP056e5SezQQy1qxZo/nP e5l6d7w5u62irWHcnoVFXrmtPpJJJWxrjgDvPnkA5w4zvVddhIwDwagUhZdVih0B A/9yOxEvRFyWucbZLx31VvoX2crfBtENVKZAOpBZgFhDoEQqrR2QoTjuGsHGZbkh tTXHChnGhyZBnboQkUlpgGppP9r389zP+5zqD0Ec7VW+BR+nlcgSQVzD8z/kBADP qexJFhI7+35EiElUns3dYtPXDyJUHIrlV9mlEXLBlsXZRYUBDAMrBVN6ur1SPQEH /1TBIyWVHUZTDQsE1/ebh0s6X4Ximn+mAwa4keVE3BMA2P5VSgk/7G4RJrpYPRKY q81n5WSfZ/CMMi1EhaaYQn84zgBSX3XRXuPDTTX2aNvt8xNdZPQw5bazUNx2xsJi AotvSEvCkb67ltJjT7qPR7XlYEr3nvsLn8/a72+Y0FzMALUhbrkYndlAh3g6dg8a os0l5yefO4PJrv/Ub4rsL4BkDj6DxAkWrKiiRGjE7FIn5Oj3VuVFtWfDAw5utf/w 1ks8tHnvrZTIZtV3nuRY2tJ07azRgwK0HE6gqlx0IH1QBUJRyJK0V22IHFz5rUia vqy4u4ND79kQgMmkJTB3j6rJ6YebcDb/pK2aMCJh3nZ/AG/Sh2re7aYUD2K1l5Au cLL75/tAEcz2a+Q8lG59foVyNwVLNNM4SbVWYMnxYNhM8qxAimaMFwESn8QB30P5 YZz3eTIRNEYU4FC16qikZwrD3KAUifJ3h7lf+vzKiEgODYlnnduNphRAdpauwnzX VYA6NdyCA5ZSls8zx827fCMOXeuL1IrBT2QyqpWujLojqwD3n/vYzRtckYWGhoPN lpW3sqpPvFLqIOJtWpXP4e10Dq3oFjHNTq1+CWY6isuLBt9+hyMcju8Fc4J/6kAJ StdPZAYhFbefIvkOTekJB9+2F7ONWePtJ5Zp2C7YuQCMYg4GxMf1zGFE6SgWA9Ab qv+8q/+xvqSajCWTG8TKG90zV2LRgf2BoaXhKHZFqck/1X8RAx7+S7lx2LKWn8rA +ojGCuTryUN0WatXaE7xQjNivWCXvX3PKOJuBte2aLN43+ysDs1a3SD/OWZAigG5 VPZtLW1+6t+zSVJZLaHgQm6tWc1r2Gh+4O+pfEexlX/YENKph1WrsdBCozFBQoF7 Q38IVJSojAg3r43i6FQFv3DvbGyUX6ktOo+2plO6XYueTylJtIrivb9LR3AF9pD0 +u4KCXzOK/vbJ8BNliFdGZdXG1nbuT5yAuKV0XPl/ks73LWR+hWVbMXYud0Qjs5w nPpRwKnjuDNnVAaMWrCPSyrG+FOZbisUGmazcrLC+Havr4J2YrL+9tSPW9Mx4LOO EuUyOXhPoJvim759sUvjdmi5NQLLKbmZRTXsRO/0Y7geS4Jzo7TmbXiCLfSvQ1KW VgOO5T0a7mdXXcR7haZaHywNUfc/Kh4E0jVuS1k9ctgAMKk7J3jr6XHGjgEvXMzP CZRpYhTZZkHF+gsfXDwFd4GChGwFQPKs8r2AQ+BeKfiDSh+cPyPhkA6pzRlwpMRH U7zYAZwN5JHYSNm1VarSkMx2yevWprwAQvHmZjT0K+BvCBLSod2gK8rZmfJs7Kkb Cj5P7o4Aex7FzGcq+19ztKqsS2FYF63YisSjt0ZfH1Z2rRjfhwRZlLsjyuXyjBD5 awSCRG+78uR4xoEuaJC/hrV8fwGg4lYKKiUy+E0x8aU+Te4OW46kCpYDQBgS5naF +3fea/h7uHVbNuIqYqxpzUxnEc1WHWGD3v25I/J9 =7Jh5 -----END PGP MESSAGE----- From MailMunky at e-s.cc Sat Aug 24 00:20:46 2002 From: MailMunky at e-s.cc (MailMunky) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 02:20:46 -0500 Subject: Hello! Message-ID: <200208240720.g7O7KiP3007162@ak47.algebra.com> Hi! My name is Stephen, what's yours? I found you on http://www.mt.net/~watcher/cooper1998.html. I assume you wouldn't mind the email, since you posted your address, and I'm not asking you for money or trying to sell you a product. Here's a poem I wrote about D-Day (available on my site www.e-s.cc with a thousand others); 'DOG TAGS' 04/93 These names of long winters speak, for days of green summers mourn, on crosses in rows, the grave's granite voice, these names give meaning to bones. Where lie your young murdered brothers? How found you your fathers afield? What marker betrayed their sun bleached remains? Names, remembered in steel. 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If you wish to "OPT-OUT" from this mailing as well as the lists of thousands of other email providers please visit http://202.108.221.18/www282/optout.html ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 1663dmAh5-505ytmK7628yRrJ3-950vADG9401hplF3-518NNDp4528AvuO0-793lWXl63 From sameeds at maktoob.com Sat Aug 24 12:43:19 2002 From: sameeds at maktoob.com (AHMED SALEH) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 12:43:19 -0700 Subject: REPLY NEEDED(URGENT) Message-ID: <200208232341.g7NNf7P3003483@ak47.algebra.com> MR.AHMED SALEH DIRECTOR PROJECT IMPLEMENTATION, FEDERAL AIRPORT AUTHORITY OF NIGERIA (FAAN) LAGOS-NIGERIA. CELPHONE:234-803-3035481 ATTN:PRESIDENT/CEO I AM A DIRECTOR IN THE FEDERAL AIRPORT AUTHORITY OF NIGERIA.I SEEK THE ASSISTANCE OF A RELIABLE FOREIGN COMPANY OR INDIVIDUAL INTO WHOSE BANK ACCOUNT l CAN TRANSFER THE SUM OF US$25.5M (TWENTY FIVE MILLION, FIVE HUNDRED THOUSAND UNITED STATES DOLLARS). THE SUM AROSE FROM THE DELIBERATE OVER INVOICING OF CONTRACTS BILLS OF SOME CONTRACTS AWARDED TO FOREIGN CONTRACTORS BY THE FEDERAL AIRPORT AUTHORITY OF NIGERIA DURING THE ADMINISTRATION OF THE FORMER MILITARY LEADER, GEN. SANI ABACHA WHO DIED ON 8THJUNE, 1998 AND SINCE THEN IT HAS BEEN LYING IN A SUSPENSE CURRENT ACCOUNT OF THE FEDERAL AIRPORT AUTHORITY WITH THE INTERCONTINENTAL BANK NIGERIA LIMITED. HOWEVER, THE CURRENT FAVORABLE POLITICAL/ECONOMIC CLIMATE IN THE COUNTRY PROVIDED AN OPPORTUNITY FOR THIS MONEY TO BE TRANSFERRED OUT OF THE COUNTRY WITHOUT HITCH. l HAVE PUT IN MOTION THE MACHINERY FOR THE TAKE OFF OF THIS TRANSACTION AND FURTHER ACTION WILL COMMENCE IMMEDIATELY l HEAR FROM YOU. l HAVE AGREED THAT AFTER THE TRANSFER OF THE MONEY INTO YOUR ACCOUNT, YOU SHALL BE ENTITLED TO 30% OF THE TOTAL SUM, I SHALL TAKE 65% WHILE 5% HAS BEEN MAPPED OUT TO REIMBURSE ALL LOCAL AND INTERNATIONAL EXPENSES THAT MAY BE INCURRED IN THE COURSE OF THE TRANSACTION. THE NATURE OF YOUR WORK/BUSINESS IS NOT PARTICULARLY RELEVANT FOR THE SUCCESS OF THIS TRANSACTION, ALL l REQUIRED IS YOUR WILLINGNESS TO COOPERATE AND ASSURANCE THAT MY OWN SHARE WILL BE GIVEN TO ME WHEN THIS MONEY HITS YOURS ACCOUNT. ALL NECESSARY PRECAUTIONS HAVE BEEN TAKEN TO ENSURE A NO RISK SITUATION ON THE SIDES OF BOTH PARTIES AND IT IS BELIEVED THAT THIS TRANSACTION WILL TAKE 10 WORKING DAYS TO FINALIZE. PLEASE IF THIS PROPOSAL IS ACCEPTABLE TO YOU, INDICATE BY RETURN MAIL. SHOULD INCASE YOU HAVE ANY QUESTION, FEEL FREE TO ASK. INCLUDE YOUR PRIVATE TELEPHONE AND FAX NUMBERS WHILE REPLYING. I EXPECT YOUR RESPONSE. BEST REGARDS MR. AHMED SALEH. From adam at cypherspace.org Sat Aug 24 09:11:42 2002 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 17:11:42 +0100 Subject: Cryptographic privacy protection in TCPA In-Reply-To: <20020821032421.A1059401@exeter.ac.uk>; from adam@cypherspace.org on Wed, Aug 21, 2002 at 03:24:21AM +0100 References: <0b9f4829b10ce20154d1cca436a26860@aarg.net> <20020818165856.A991609@exeter.ac.uk> <20020821032421.A1059401@exeter.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20020824171142.A1130528@exeter.ac.uk> On Wed, Aug 21, 2002 at 03:24:21AM +0100, Adam Back wrote: > Because Camenisch credentials are unlinkable multi-show it makes it > harder to recognize sharing, so the user could undetectably share > credentials with a small group that he trusts. > > [...] > > However if the Camenisch (unlinkable multi-show) credential were > shared too widely the issuer may also learn the secret key and hence > be able to link and so revoke the overly-shared credentials. This > combats sharing though to a limited extent. Since writing this I realised that there is a problem revoking unlinkable multi-show credentials: - I was presuming that revealing the credential and it's secret key is sufficient to allow someone to link shows of that credential. - but to link you'd have to try each revoked credential in turn. Therefore the verifier would have to perform work linear in the number of revoked credentials at each show, for the duration of the epoch. Anonymous suggests one way out is to just define that the issuing CA and the refreshing CA to be the same entity. Then you already have to trust the hardware manufacturer not to issue certs whose secrets are outside of a TPM. In this case Brands or Chaum credentials work. The remaining desiderata are: - it is not ideal from a risk management perspective to have to have the hardware manufacturers endorsement private key online to refresh certificates (or in general for there to be any private key online that allows issuing of credentials whose private keys lie outside a TPM); - not ideal to have to have an online protocol with an otherwise non-existant third party (credential refresh CA) in order to avoid linkability; Other ideas I gave in an earlier post towards fixing these remaining issues now that it seems unlinkable multi-show credentials won't work: | Perhaps there would be someway to have the privacy CA be a different | CA to the endorsement CA and for the privacy CA to only be able to | refresh existing credentials issued by the endorsement CA, but not to | create fresh ones. | | Or perhaps some restriction could be placed on what the privacy CA | could do of the form if the privacy CA issued new certificates it | would reveal it's private key. Adam -- http://www.cypherspace.org/adam/ From freakhugecockwithapussyaroundit at framesetup.com Sat Aug 24 17:10:14 2002 From: freakhugecockwithapussyaroundit at framesetup.com (Free Pussy) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 20:10:14 -0400 Subject: Free Pussy with a huge cock in it Message-ID: <200208250002.g7P02fP3010838@ak47.algebra.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4641 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sfurlong at acmenet.net Sat Aug 24 20:36:23 2002 From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 23:36:23 -0400 Subject: U.S. Military Uses the Force In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200208242336.23673.sfurlong@acmenet.net> On Thursday 22 August 2002 14:26, Mike Rosing wrote: > On Thu, 22 Aug 2002, Major Variola (ret) wrote: > > The specific heat of Cu is heat of vaporization is > > and the ... > > And, where does the momentum of grams x > > m/sec go? > > According to the article it leaves dents. So instead of a focused > blast puncturing a hole, it gets splayed out all over the place. > > > Also, just out of curiousity, what are the health effects of finely > > dispersed Cu oxide ? > > Does anyone make liners out of DU? Yummy. Steven denBeste (the captain of U.S.S. Clueless) discussed anti-tank weapons and anti-anti-tank defenses at http://denbeste.nu/cd_log_entries/2002/08/MoreontheT-72.shtml . The HEAT discussion applies to RPGs. It doesn't answer all of Major Variola's questions, but gives a conceptual overview without the math. Note: Although denBeste generally writes good essays on the technical subjects he covers, he's been known to make omissions and errors. As with everything on the net, read with a grain of salt. -- Steve Furlong Computer Condottiere Have GNU, Will Travel Vote Idiotarian --- it's easier than thinking From p_0_khotnlp_0_won at yahoo.com Sat Aug 24 23:29:55 2002 From: p_0_khotnlp_0_won at yahoo.com (Bulk Help) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 01:29:55 -0500 Subject: Bulk Help Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4438 bytes Desc: not available URL: From specials at magicwicca.com Sun Aug 25 01:45:40 2002 From: specials at magicwicca.com (Dr Bob) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 01:45:40 -0700 Subject: Magick Wicca Super Sale !! Message-ID: <308874-22002802584540100@magicwicca.com> Merry Meet !! To celebrate our 12th year in business, we are offering a one of a kind super savings sale !! http://www.magicwicca.com On all orders of $50.00 or more, just enter the following code into the shopping cart and receive a full 10% discount on your entire order !! Copy and paste this code - it must be exact. Orders UNDER US$50.00 will not receive this discount CODE: MW2251B7 http://www.magicwicca.com Order ANY products listed on our web site !!! Any Product !! Any Quantity !!! As long as your order is over $50.00, enter the code and get the discount !! Automatically !!!! CODE: MW2251B7 http://www.magicwicca.com To be removed from our mailing list, please senmnd email to Remove at magicwicca.com Your name will be immediately removed from any future mailings Blessed Be Your Magick Wicca Support Team From jerry671425 at aol.com Sun Aug 25 00:17:58 2002 From: jerry671425 at aol.com (jerry671425 at aol.com) Date: 25 Aug 2002 07:17:58 +0000 Subject: Hi ! (1761r@5) Message-ID: <007c42a23cbc$2743d3b3$0ad85ec3@cqytmt> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1662 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cypherpunks at Algebra.COM Sun Aug 25 09:17:11 2002 From: cypherpunks at Algebra.COM (cypherpunks at Algebra.COM) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 11:17:11 -0500 Subject: This is the best e-mail I ever received. Message-ID: <8DEX9C69LFJHK.28HT2OQL53TCVE.cypherpunks@algebra.com> All our mailings are sent complying to the proposed H.R. 3113 Unsolicited Commercial Electronic Mail Act of 2000. Please see the bottom of this message for further information and removal instructions. PARENTS OF 15 - YEAR OLD - FIND $71,000 CASH HIDDEN IN HIS CLOSET! Does this headline look familiar? Of course it does. You most likely have just seen this story recently featured on a major nightly news program (USA). And reported elsewhere in the world (including my neck of the woods - New Zealand). His mother was cleaning and putting laundry away when she came across a large brown paper bag that was suspiciously buried beneath some clothes and a skateboard in the back of her 15-year-old sons closet. Nothing could have prepared her for the shock she got when she opened the bag and found it was full of cash. Five-dollar bills, twenties, fifties and hundreds - all neatly rubber-banded in labelled piles. "My first thought was that he had robbed a bank", says the 41-year-old woman, "There was over $71,000 dollars in that bag -- that's more than my husband earns in a year". The woman immediately called her husband at the car-dealership where he worked to tell him what she had discovered.He came home right away and they drove together to the boys school and picked him up. Little did they suspect that where the money came from was more shocking than actually finding it in the closet. As it turns out, the boy had been sending out, via E-mail, a type of "Report" to E-mail addresses that he obtained off the Internet. Everyday after school for the past 2 months, he had been doing this right on his computer in his bedroom. "I just got the E-mail one day and I figured what the heck, I put my name on it like the instructions said and I started sending it out", says the clever 15-year-old. The E-mail letter listed 5 addresses and contained instructions to send one $5 dollar bill to each person on the list, then delete the address at the top and move the others addresses Down , and finally to add your name to the top of the list. The letter goes on to state that you would receive several thousand dollars in five-dollar bills within 2 weeks if you sent out the letter with your name at the top of the 5-address list. "I get junk E-mail all the time, and really did not think it was going to work", the boy continues. Within the first few days of sending out the E-mail, the Post Office Box that his parents had gotten him for his video-game magazine subscriptions began to fill up with not magazines, but envelopes containing $5 bills. "About a week later I rode [my bike] down to the post office and my box had 1 magazine and about 300 envelops stuffed in it. There was also a yellow slip that said I had to go up to the [post office] counter. I thought I was in trouble or something (laughs)". He goes on, "I went up to the counter and they had a whole box of more mail for me. I had to ride back home and empty out my backpack because I could not carry it all". Over the next few weeks, the boy continued sending out the E-mail."The money just kept coming in and I just kept sorting it and stashing it in the closet, barely had time for my homework".He had also been riding his bike to several of the banks in his area and exchanging the $5 bills for twenties, fifties and hundreds. "I didn't want the banks to get suspicious so I kept riding to different banks with like five thousand at a time in my backpack. I would usually tell the lady at the bank counter that my dad had sent me in to exchange the money] and he was outside waiting for me.One time the lady gave me a really strange look and told me that she would not be able to do it for me and my dad would have to come in and do it, but I just rode to the next bank down the street (laughs)." Surprisingly, the boy did not have any reason to be afraid.The reporting news team examined and investigated the so-called "chain-letter" the boy was sending out and found that it was not a chain-letter at all.In fact, it was completely legal according to US Postal and Lottery Laws, Title 18, Section 1302 and 1341, or Title 18, Section 3005 in the US code, also in the code of federal regulations, Volume 16, Sections 255 and 436, which state a product or service must be exchanged for money received. Every five-dollar bill that he received contained a little note that read, "Please send me report number XYX".This simple note made the letter legal because he was exchanging a service (A Report on how-to) for a five-dollar fee. [This is the end of the media release. If you would like to understand how the system works and get your $71,000 - please continue reading. What appears below is what the 15 year old was sending out on the net - YOU CAN USE IT TOO - just follow the simple instructions]. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ BE FINANCIALLY FREE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!! Before you say "Bull", please read the following. This is the letter you have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the Internet, a national weekly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of this program described below, to see if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved once and for all that there are "absolutely NO Laws prohibiting the participation in the program and if people can follow the simple instructions, they are bound to make some megabucks with only $25 out of pocket cost". DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER. Note* follow the directons below, I had best results the second time when i hired a bulk email service in addition to following the reports instructions. In order for all of us to be successful, many, many emails must be sent so that the returns are many. I have been extremely successful using the following company. They send out the offers, and all I do is accept money for reports, then I send back to the people as soon as possible. This is what one had to say: "Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I was approached many times before but each time I passed on it. I am so glad I finally joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received total $610,470.00 in 21 weeks, with money still coming in". Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Here is another testimonial: "This program has been around for a long time but I never believed in it. But one day when I received this again in the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the simple instructions and walaa ..... 3 weeks later the money started to come in. First month I only made $240.00 but the next 2 months after that I made a total of $290,000.00. So far, in the past 8 months by re-entering the program, I have made over $710,000.00 and I am laying it again. The key to success in this program is to ollow the simple steps and NOT change anything." ore testimonials later but first, PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE Order all 5 reports shown on the list below For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems. When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 reports. You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computer. Within a few days you will receive, vie e-mail, each of the 5 reports from these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it on your desk in case something happens to your computer. IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than what is instructed below in step "1 through 6" or you will loose out on majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you will also see how it does not work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter, it will NOT work!!! People have tried to put their friends/relatives names on all five thinking they could get all the money. But it does not work this way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and then nothing happened. So Do Not try to change anything other than what is instructed. Because if you do, it will not work for you. Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 1.... After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune. 2.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT #5. 3.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT #4. 4.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT #3. 5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT #2 6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ **** Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it on your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose any data. To assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing information which includes how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much more. There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going: METHOD #1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we will assume You and those involved send out only 5,000e-mails each. Let's also assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% response (the response could be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2%. Also many people will send out hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 each). Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for report # 1. Those 10 people responded by sending out 5,000 e-mail each for a total of 50,000. Out of those 50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders. That equals 100 people responded and ordered Report # 2. Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report #3. Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million e-mails sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for Report #4. Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000,000 (50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for Report #5. THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH=$500,000.00 (half million). Your total income in this example is: 1..... $50 +2.....$500 + 3.....$5,000 + 4..... $50,000 + 5..... $500,000........Grand Total=$555,550.00 NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE OUT THE WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY! ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO. Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone or half or even one 4th of those people mailed 100,000e-mails each or more? There are over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide and counting. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! METHOD #2: BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there are hundreds of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the Internet will easily get a larger response. We strongly suggest you start with Method #1 and add METHOD #2 as you go along. For every $5 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it. Always provide same day service on all orders. This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out with your name and address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they receive the report. AVAILABLE REPORTS ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper or aluminum foil. On one of those sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are ordering, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address. PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW: +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ REPORT #1: The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Net Order REPORT #1 from: G. Modersohn 629 Coop Rd. Bell Buckle, TN 37020 __________________________________________________________ Order Report #2 from: G. Gitlitz 905 Belltown Rd Tellico Plains, TN 37385-5458 __________________________________________________________ REPORT #3: The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the Net Order Report #3 from: GM Boland 353 Jonestown Rd. Suite 125 Winston Salem, NC 27104 __________________________________________________________ REPORT #4: Secret to Multilevel marketing on the Net Order Report #4 from: R. Chernick PO Box 771661 C.S. Florida 33077 _________________________________________________________ REPORT #5: How to become a millionaire utilizing MLM & the Net Order Report #5 from: M. Eiseman PO Box 451971 Sunrise, Florida 33345-1971 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2 weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do. After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you should receive 100 orders or more for REPORT #2. If you did not, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a Different report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate from this business!!! ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money in the next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put your name and address in Report#1 and moved others to #2 thru #5 as instructed above. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be on every one of them. Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW! MORE TESTIMONIALS "My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving "junk mail". I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I "knew" it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received total $ 147,200.00....all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jody in her "hobby". Mitchell Wolf, Chicago, Illinois ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back". "I was surprised when I found my medium size post office box crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that it does not matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return and so big". Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone else......11 months passed then it luckily came again...... I did not delete this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the money came within 22 weeks". Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington,D.C. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ This email was sent to you via Saf-E Mail Systems. Your email address was automatically inserted into the To and From addresses to eliminate undeliverables which waste bandwidth and cause internet congestion. Your email or webserver IS NOT being used for the sending of this mail. No-one else is receiving emails from your address. You may utilize the removal link below if you do not wish to receive this mailing.http://www.andromeda-cr.com/remove.html From Adriangibbs at lycos.com Sun Aug 25 03:19:14 2002 From: Adriangibbs at lycos.com (Adriangibbs at lycos.com) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 11:19:14 +0100 Subject: Proven System - Proven Company - Proven Results Message-ID: <200208251026.g7PAQOP3022189@ak47.algebra.com> You get emails every day, offering to show you how to make money. Most of these emails are from people who are NOT making any money. And they expect you to listen to them? Enough. If you want to make money with your computer, then you should hook up with a group that is actually DOING it. We are making a large, continuing income every month. What's more - we will show YOU how to do the same thing. This business is done completely by internet and email, and you can even join for free to check it out first. If you can send an email, you can do this. No special "skills" are required. How much are we making? Anywhere from $2000 to $9000 per month. We are real people, and most of us work at this business part-time. But keep in mind, we do WORK at it - I am not going to insult your intelligence by saying you can sign up, do no work, and rake in the cash. That kind of job does not exist. But if you are willing to put in 10-12 hours per week, this might be just the thing you are looking for. This is not income that is determined by luck, or work that is done FOR you - it is all based on your effort. But, as I said, there are no special skills required. And this income is RESIDUAL - meaning that it continues each month (and it tends to increase each month also). Interested? I invite you to find out more. You can get in as a free member, at no cost, and no obligation to continue if you decide it is not for you. We are just looking for people who still have that "burning desire" to find an opportunity that will reward them incredibly well, if they work at it. 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From info at smokesdirect.com Sun Aug 25 08:38:55 2002 From: info at smokesdirect.com (Sales Department) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 17:38:55 +0200 Subject: Cheap Tobacco Message-ID: <200208251532.g7PFWtP3007260@ak47.algebra.com> Dear Sir / Madam If you are fed up of being 'ripped off' by the British government every time you buy your tobacco, then you should visit our website, where you can now buy 4 cartons of cigarettes, or 40 pouches of rolling tobacco from as little as 170 Euros (approx 105 pounds), inclusive of delivery by registered air mail from our office in Spain. Why pay more??? Visit our website at http://www.smokesdirect.com/?ID=2 Best regards Sales Department Smokes Direct Spain xay2518081y From rah at shipwright.com Sun Aug 25 18:18:34 2002 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 21:18:34 -0400 Subject: TGE: Thugs of South Boston and The Revenge of the Bandit Princess Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Thugs of South Boston and The Revenge of the Bandit Princess The Geodesic Economy Robert A. Hettinga Sunday, August 25, 2002 (BOSTON) When you think about it one way, the FBI/Winter Hill vs. Patriarcha/Angiulo Cosa Nostra fight was just another race war between thugs. Put crudely, and at its most racist, the FBI and the Winter Hill Gang were the (mostly) Irish thugs, and Patriarcha's "family" were, of course, the (mostly) Italian thugs. Think Scorsese's upcoming "Gangs of New York", only with counter-reformatory overtones. Hoover's South Boston "social-club" putsch, starting in the mid 1960's, was particularly audacious in hindsight. The U.S. Federal Government actually decided to underwrite a reversal of the prohibition-era capture of the nation's rackets by the Italians from the Irish. The fact that the plot was hatched not for New York, but for South Boston, the most Irish place in the US, only makes even more gigantic the Big Lie that was told by the FBI to its ostensible political masters about bringing down organized crime there once and for all. The result, as we all found out, wasn't swapping the heroin of Italian Boston mob violence for Irish methadone. Hoover was, posthumously, swapping it for Oxycontin, or crystal methamphetamine - -- or, more properly, PCP. The absolute psychopathology of violence in Whitey Bulger's crack-cocaine-era reign of Boston's drug markets, like the identical FBI-sponsored reigns or violent horror by other also-rans in cities across the US as a whole, went up whole orders of magnitude, not mere percentage points. As Stalin said once, quantity has a quality all it's own. And, make no mistake, J. Edgar Hoover was directly responsible that "quality" of carnage, nation-wide. So, yes, on paper at least, it really *was* just the swapping of one gang of racist thugs for another, and the result was, on paper, at least, business as usual. Same stuff, different century, with apparently decent people like Mr. Salvati et.al accidently ground on the gears of "justice" like so much hamburger. However, to be much more macabre about it, that hamburger was "greasing", if you will, an auto de fe only a homicidal lunatic could love: a perfectly functioning market, legislated out of existence -- on paper, if nowhere else -- by government fiat and the, back-door, but still elitist, will to power of H.L. Mencken's famous "bluenoses and busybodies". It all starts, like all true evil does, from the most innocent of beginnings. What she couldn't do to alcohol, teatotaling Mrs. Grundy then tried to do to anything else she could think of that had a smaller, "manageable" demand. The bloody result was, like nine more heads of the hydra, an increasingly ubiquitous universal prohibition, in more markets, and for more things, as the 20th century wore on. Every time some recreational drug was found to be addictive, or harmful, or physically distasteful, or carcinogenic -- or, now, apparently, fattening -- and then prohibited, exactly the same thing happened to its markets that happened to alcohol during the Volstead years. A *larger* market than before the prohibition. Hugely lucrative profits for anyone with the moral stomach to violently scale newly-legislated "barriers to competition" imposed on them by the state. Increasingly violent attacks by the government on users of those substances. And, finally, the ultimate in evil -- the kind of evil this country actually fought wars to end -- increasingly coercive axe-handle beatings, by our own government, of the sacred liberty of the average, but now unavoidably-law-breaking, citizenry. As Ayn Rand cynically observed a long time ago, you don't need government if nobody's breaking the law. In some twisted corollary to Parkinson's Law, governments, to survive, *need* more people, breaking more laws, or they can never justify the money they confiscate at tax time. And, to bring us back to the point, David Friedman would probably echo here his father Milton's famous observation that government regulations only benefit the regulated sellers in a given market, and never the consumer, much less the economy as a whole. Even, *especially*, if those sellers are *breaking* the law, as they are in the increasingly ubiquitous prohibition of risky behavior that our government now imposes on us. And there, absent the apparent grace of Mr. Hoover, went Mr. Salvati. In fact, Hayek himself, in "The Road to Serfdom", couldn't have predicted any better the gory consequences of Hoover's blatant imposition, "for our own good", of Vietnam-era statist power at the neighborhood level. And, furthermore, *Stalin* couldn't have had better "useful idiots" than Hoover did -- and neither, by an absolutely literal extension, did Whitey Bulger after Hoover. Useful idiots on both sides of the congressional aisle. Idiots who were eating out of Hoover's power-craven hand for the entire middle of the 20th century -- and Whitey Bulger's hand, whether they knew it or not, until the end of the millennium. A time, you'll notice, which saw the increasingly steady imposition of "mob" violence, and market control, from both state and illegal interests, way beyond the imaginings of even the most power-mad, rum-running, stock-kiting, movie-flopping, bureau-pumping, Nazi-appeasing Irish-Bostonian Little Caesar. Or, as for that matter, his safely trust-funded, and now strictly political, descendents. In terms of actual financial economics, think of what happened to Mr. Salvati and the others, dead or alive, as a "transfer-price", in human lives, of the inevitable consequence of MacNamara-style Vietnam-era Keynesian "social-cost" input-output accounting at its most despicable, and you can almost begin to fathom the atrocity that was committed by Hoover, and his co-religionists in state economic control, in the name of what really was, as you'll now agree, just a race war between thugs up in Boston. This shouldn't be a surprise, really. All race wars are at least fought by thugs, though they're usually conceived elsewhere, and endorsed, at the time, by all the "right" people, for all the "right" reasons. As far as the FBI itself goes, remember Mancur Olson's observation that a "prince" is just a stationary bandit. Though, given his penchant for women's clothing, for other men, and, what's actually obscene, for violently hypocritical treatment of people of his own affectional preference, I suppose we can call J. Edgar Hoover a bandit "princess", instead. "Bandit Queen", of course, would be a grievous insult to queens -- and real bandits -- everywhere. Cheers, RAH - --------- http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/25/national/25FBI.html?todaysheadlines= &pagewanted=print&position=top The New York Times August 25, 2002 Hoover's F.B.I. and the Mafia: Case of Bad Bedfellows Grows By FOX BUTTERFIELD BOSTON, Aug. 24 - It was March 1965, in the early days of J. Edgar Hoover's war against the Mafia. F.B.I. agents, say Congressional investigators, eavesdropped on a conversation in the headquarters of New England's organized-crime boss, Raymond Patriarca. Two gangsters, Joseph Barboza and Vincent Flemmi, wanted Mr. Patriarca's permission to kill a small-time hoodlum, Edward Deegan, "as they were having a problem with him," according to an F.B.I. log of the conversation. "Patriarca ultimately furnished this O.K.," the F.B.I. reported, and three days later Mr. Deegan turned up dead in an alley, shot six times. It was an extraordinary situation: The Federal Bureau of Investigation had evidence ahead of time that two well-known gangsters were planning a murder and that the head of the New England Mafia was involved. But when indictments in the case were handed down in 1967, the real killers - who also happened to be informers for the F.B.I. - were left alone. Four other men were tried, convicted and sentenced to death or life in prison for the murder, though they had had nothing to do with it. One, Joseph Salvati, who spent 30 years in prison, filed notice with the Justice Department last week that he planned to sue the F.B.I. for $300 million for false imprisonment. His is the latest in a series of lawsuits against the F.B.I., the Justice Department and some F.B.I. agents growing out of the tangled, corrupt collaboration between gangsters and the F.B.I.'s Boston office in its effort to bring down the mob. The lawsuits are based on evidence uncovered in the last five years in a judicial hearing and a Justice Department inquiry. But some of the most explosive evidence has only recently come to light, including documents detailing conversation in which Mr. Patriarca approved the murder. They were released as part of an investigation by the House Committee on Government Reform, which has pressured the department into turning over records about the F.B.I in Boston. The documents show that officials at F.B.I. headquarters, apparently including Mr. Hoover, knew as long ago as 1965 that Boston agents were employing killers and gang leaders as informers and were protecting them from prosecution. "J. Edgar Hoover crossed over the line and became a criminal himself," said Vincent Garo, Mr. Salvati's lawyer. "He allowed a witness to lie to put an innocent man in prison so he could protect one of his informants." Mr. Barboza was a crucial witness at trial against Mr. Salvati and may have implicated him because Mr. Salvati owed $400 to a loan shark who worked for Mr. Barboza. Asked about the documents showing that Mr. Hoover knew of Mr. Salvati's innocence when he was put on trial, Gail Marcinkiewicz, a spokeswoman for the F.B.I. in Boston, declined to comment, citing the pending litigation. A Justice Department task force is continuing to investigate misconduct in the Boston office. In one of the first results of the investigation, one retired agent, John J. Connolly, is awaiting sentencing next month after being convicted of racketeering and obstruction of justice for helping two other mob leaders who were F.B.I. informers, James Bulger and Stephen Flemmi. Vincent and Stephen Flemmi are brothers. The Government Reform Committee, led by Representative Dan Burton, Republican of Indiana, has uncovered memorandums from the Boston office to headquarters in Washington revealing the bureau's knowledge that Vincent Flemmi and Mr. Barboza were involved in killing Mr. Deegan. A memorandum a week after the killing described the crime, including who fired the first shot. Then, on June 4, 1965, Mr. Hoover's office demanded to know what progress was being made in developing Vincent Flemmi as an informer. In a reply five days later, the special agent in charge of the Boston office said that Mr. Flemmi was in a hospital recovering from gunshot wounds but because of his connections to Mr. Patriarca "potentially could be an excellent informant." The agent also informed Mr. Hoover that Mr. Flemmi was known to have killed seven men, "and, from all indications, he is going to continue to commit murder." Nevertheless, the agent said, "the informant's potential outweighs the risk involved." A Congressional investigator called the exchange chilling. "The most frightening part is that after being warned about Flemmi's murders, the director does not even respond," the investigator said. "There is no message not to use a murderer as a government informant." The origin of the corruption scandal was public and political pressure on Mr. Hoover to move more forcefully against the growing power of the Mafia, which he had largely ignored. In Boston, F.B.I. agents recruited Mr. Barboza and Mr. Flemmi and developed close ties to a rival criminal organization, the Winter Hill Gang, led by Mr. Bulger. Both sides got what they wanted, according to the investigations and the trial of Mr. Connolly. The F.B.I. got information that eventually helped destroy the Patriarca and Angiulo families, which controlled organized crime in New England. Mr. Bulger's gang was able to take over the rackets in Boston, sell drugs and even commit murder while the F.B.I. looked the other way. One reason the F.B.I. may not have used its information about Mr. Patriarca's involvement in the Deegan murder, Congressional investigators say, is that it came from an illegal listening device in his Providence, R.I., headquarters. The F.B.I. agent who transcribed the conversation made it appear that the information was coming from unnamed informants, to disguise the use of the device, the investigators say. Mr. Salvati, a former truck driver, now 69, had his sentence commuted in 1997 by Gov. William F. Weld. Last year, while he was still on parole, his murder conviction was dismissed by a Massachusetts state judge after the Justice Department task force made public documents suggesting his innocence. Two of the other wrongly convicted men died in prison. Their survivors have joined the fourth man, Peter Limone, in a $375 million lawsuit against the Justice Department. Mr. Limone was sentenced to die in the electric chair. His life was spared only when Massachusetts outlawed the death penalty in 1974. Mr. Salvati lives in a modest apartment in Boston's North End with his wife, Marie, who visited him in prison every week during those 30 years. Each week Mr. Salvati sent her a romantic card, which she put on the television set. It was, Mr. Garo said, all they had of each other. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 7.5 iQA/AwUBPWmB2sPxH8jf3ohaEQL9qgCgxHq0ee06UEsNv8u8wgvmjf9K7S4An3Rb 3srsGomWjNDwIaKoEHOfNHpI =OELD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From TestMunky at hotmail.com Sun Aug 25 22:54:37 2002 From: TestMunky at hotmail.com (MailMunky) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 00:54:37 -0500 Subject: It's Stephen Message-ID: <200208260554.g7Q5sXBA025262@ak47.algebra.com> Hi! It's Stephen, again! How are you? I found you on http://www.mt.net/~watcher/cooper1998.html. Remember? ANYway, some people (just a very few) were angered by my last poem, though most were very happy to read it. A few bad apples, and all that... They're trying to shut me down, but they can't take my database away from me. Or my poetry. Here's another one (about my mother - she's dying of Alzheimers - it's really awful): OH, THE BLACK GARDENS March 31, 2000 she listens at the whispers when they hasten to her door her keen eyes upon the shadows that make a hateful, bloody war across her ceiling and her walls without regard for private places but muster in her drawers and make within her closets such awful, spiteful faces for she listens with the whispers when they cry out for revenge for the catcalls oft returned from beneath the wells of shade so long harbored safe beneath her bed and listening to her whispers so carefully from her chair she may let slip her cautious grip she may unwind her twisted hair she may let go all meaning as a tumbler slips the wire she may free fall through black gardens where little girls dance but never tire My new web site (for now) is http://www.mailmunky.0catch.com My new email is TestMunky at hotmail.com Best Regards, Stephen Super Genius From: Outer Space MailMunky Design By: http://www.mailmunky.0catch.com/ From betty_robins1I7RqDa at hotmail.com Sun Aug 25 20:12:18 2002 From: betty_robins1I7RqDa at hotmail.com (betty_robins1I7RqDa at hotmail.com) Date: 26 Aug 2002 03:12:18 +0000 Subject: Bills Bills Bills 1zV4dYDHjldpE Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3432 bytes Desc: not available URL: From alexgh8hj548710o31 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 26 01:45:52 2002 From: alexgh8hj548710o31 at yahoo.com (alexgh8hj548710o31 at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 03:45:52 -0500 Subject: 0755UeVh6-837-12 Message-ID: <030e62e20c6b$7432c1c5$7cb42ac8@rxrsxr> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1997 bytes Desc: not available URL: From celebhqphfnqe at iol.it Mon Aug 26 02:33:31 2002 From: celebhqphfnqe at iol.it (celebhqphfnqe at iol.it) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 04:33:31 -0500 Subject: Bad month for celeb husbands! Watch Angelina Jolie cheat on tape!!! Message-ID: <1030350811.713221@mail43.timefind.net> Angelina Jolie gets busted having a strange maybe satanic sex ritual on tape which forces her celeb huband Billy bob Thornton to leave her! Billy Bob used this footage in court to prove that she cheated and therefore cannot take any of his estate! These rich celeb typs always have these bigshot lawyers who will try and take these videos of the net so if you want to watch them do it now. http://www.tnt-hosting.com/bti/ This home video is kind of strange..thats angelina on the bed..she has a mask on for the first minute of two but then the guy in the weird outfit takes it off and she goes nuts!!! click on the link below now! Click on the link below for your free pass to watch Angelina's weird satanic sex movie! http://www.tnt-hosting.com/bti/ plcurechaxf^nytroen(pbz From ddetsnryw at gmx.de Mon Aug 26 01:42:09 2002 From: ddetsnryw at gmx.de (Murat S) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 04:42:09 -0400 Subject: Haberdar olun Message-ID: HABERDAR.COM - HABER VE MEDYA PORTALI Art�k t�m haberleri sadece tek siteden takip edebileceksiniz. Haberdar.com a��ld�! Haber ba�l�klar�, spor haberleri, teknoloji haberleri, k�lt�r ve sanat haberleri, internet haberleri, bilim ve uzay, sinema, sa�l�k... Arad���n�z i�erik http://www.haberdar.com adresinde Sadece t�klay�n ve haberdar olun From cypherpunks at Algebra.COM Mon Aug 26 03:05:26 2002 From: cypherpunks at Algebra.COM (cypherpunks at Algebra.COM) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 05:05:26 -0500 Subject: Guaranteed Lowest Rate, Shop on the web Message-ID: <38LU9F2.36652AO0CK0O.cypherpunks@algebra.com> We will help you get the mortgage loan you want! Only takes 2 minutes to fill out our form. http://www.andromeda-cr.com/index.php Whether a new home loan is what you seek or to refinance your current home loan at a lower interest rate and payment, we can help! Mortgage rates haven't been this low in the last 12 months, take action now! Refinance your home with us and include all of those pesky credit card bills or use the extra cash for that pool you've always wanted... Where others says NO, we say YES!!! Even if you have been turned down elsewhere, we can help! Easy terms! Our mortgage referral service combines the highest quality loans with most economical rates and the easiest qualification! Click Here to fill out our form. http://www.andromeda-cr.com/index.php -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4862 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mv at cdc.gov Mon Aug 26 09:13:18 2002 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 09:13:18 -0700 Subject: Welcome to Amerika: precrime squads Message-ID: <3D6A539E.86437C84@cdc.gov> http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/nation/1548489 Aug. 25, 2002, 10:00PM Delaware police compile database of future suspects Associated Press WILMINGTON, Del. -- Police in Delaware are trying to get a head-start on cracking crimes before they happen by setting up a database that contains a list of people who officers believe are likely to break the law. Defense attorneys and the American Civil Liberties Union oppose the database, which lists names, addresses and photographs of the potential suspects -- many of whom have clean slates. The precise grounds for putting a person on the list aren't clear. But since the system was introduced in Wilmington in June, most of the 200 people included in the file have been minorities from poor, high-crime neighborhoods. State and federal prosecutors say the tactic is legal, but defense lawyers object to the practice. "We should enforce the existing laws, but not violate them, to catch the bad guys," said Theo Gregory, City Councilman and public defender. "We've become the bad guys, and that's not right." Mayor James Baker called the criticism "asinine and intellectually bankrupt." "I don't care what anyone but a court of law thinks," he said. "Until a court says otherwise, if I say it's constitutional, it's constitutional." The pictures are being taken by two Wilmington police squads created in June to arrest drug dealers. The units are known in some neighborhoods as "jump-out squads" because they jump out of cars and make quick arrests. Many of the people whose photos have been taken for the file were stopped briefly for loitering and let go. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Mon Aug 26 11:08:31 2002 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 11:08:31 -0700 Subject: Welcome to Amerika: precrime squads In-Reply-To: <3D6A539E.86437C84@cdc.gov> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20020826110726.04780d18@idiom.com> Sounds like libel to me. So there's a published list, even if it's only published to cops, saying "This person is likely to commit a crime". Leave aside the obvious civil liberties issues for the moment - this seems like simple libel to me. At least for the Usual Suspects who haven't yet been arrested for things, this doesn't sound like investigation of a crime or other legitimate police function that's protected by laws protecting government officials doing their official jobs. Of course, most of the people on the list probably don't have the resources to fight that kind of libel suit, but it'd be fun to get the ACLU or some other pro bono support for it. From jya at pipeline.com Mon Aug 26 11:50:17 2002 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 11:50:17 -0700 Subject: Schneier: Homeland Security Needs Cops Message-ID: In the September Atlantic Monthly Bruce Schneier explains yet again why cryptography is not the solution to security; what's needed are private cyber cops like his: http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2002/09/mann.htm Amazing how Bruce's philosopy matches that of those he once combated in the "crypto wars." He recants crypto security to remind that there is never to be found lasting security, as with the TLAs worldwide, except by well-paid vigilance of those who know best how to protect us. He may be right, or he may smell Starbucks. Quote: When I asked Schneier why Counterpane had such Darth Vaderish command centers, he laughed and said it helped to reassure potential clients that the company had mastered the technology. I asked if clients ever inquired how Counterpane trains the guards and analysts in the command centers. "Not often," he said, although that training is in fact the center of the whole system. Mixing long stretches of inactivity with short bursts of frenzy, the work rhythm of the Counterpane guards would have been familiar to police officers and firefighters everywhere. As I watched the guards, they were slurping soft drinks, listening to techno-death metal, and waiting for something to go wrong. They were in a protected space, looking out at a dangerous world. Sentries around Neolithic campfires did the same thing. Nothing better has been discovered since. Thinking otherwise, in Schneier's view, is a really terrible idea. Unquote Heroes, by god, what we need are more poster boy heroes. From cypherpunks at Algebra.COM Mon Aug 26 10:25:08 2002 From: cypherpunks at Algebra.COM (cypherpunks@algebra.com) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 13:25:08 -0400 Subject: hello Message-ID: <200208261724.g7QHOxhJ003561@ak47.algebra.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1889 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sean at crowne-gold.com Mon Aug 26 16:14:44 2002 From: sean at crowne-gold.com (Sean Trainor) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 19:14:44 -0400 Subject: [dgc.chat] Crowne Gold Update Message-ID: To all for worldwide delivery. Update: Crowne Gold I wanted to brief the Gold community on the situation at Crowne Gold and apologize for the delay in coming back on-line after recent events. Crownes staff is available and working even though servers have not been accessible. Heres a brief overview of what happened and where we are: Crowne Gold was attacked by hackers who attempted to hijack U.S. $7 million but failed. They failed in part because members of the digital gold community quickly offered assistance to thwart their assault. The level of cooperation was excellent. Hackers managed to breach part of the Crowne Gold system due to a key-logging program not recognized by the most up-to-date anti-virals that came in attached to an email directed to a customer service person. The email was sent and received outside the normal encrypted email system provided within the Crowne Gold program. This was not a frontal attack on the server but rather a carefully orchestrated process that engaged direct email interaction between the hackers (under alias) and a customer service person from their own workstation. By getting an administrator to respond directly to email, the hackers gained access to a computer half a world away from the front-end server and eventually captured administrative logons. The primary server system was not attacked until Carnival was in full swing in the Caribbean from whence Crowne Gold customer service functions are provided. When it was discovered that hackers had penetrated the system, IP addresses were put under trace and the information gained was submitted to Interpol. Crowne elected to shutdown servers including front-end, back-up, and double mirror-backup systems in order to ascertain the extent of the penetration. Even the customer service network was shutdown until IT personnel arrived on site and made changes to secure these normally benign networks. The hackers were both clever and to some extent lucky, on the other hand, and as already pointed out, they failed to make even a single dollar out of the entire exercise. However, we have been led to believe that they have attempted to blackmail other digital gold providers based on their ability to force the temporary shutdown of Crowne Gold. So where are we now? As you may be aware, Crowne Gold absorbed the former 3PGold whose front-end server was located at Havenco at the Principality of Sealand. Havenco is physically secure but when the hackers accessed Crowne Golds equipment at the Havenco server farm, there was no one on location at Havenco to support the several IT persons on the Crowne Gold side who desperately needed on site assistance. It took several days for Havenco staff to respond to calls for assistance and then it became immediately apparent that those in communication were nowhere near the actual Havenco platform. Hence Havenco is now a backup server in the new server structure, at least until Havenco is able to provide 24/7 support on-site. Considerable changes have been made which required the server systems to remain down longer than we would have liked but safe rather than sorry has been pretty much the by-line of the entire event. There are a host of technology enhancements now taking place, both hardware and software, but to say more than this would probably be unwise. Again we apologize for the delay. We have been rudely educated. Yet as things go it has been a dramatic wake-up call and probably the best time possible for us to live through this experience. To our customers, the digital gold community, and new users, we apologize for this huge inconvenience. Rest assured we will be back online soon and with a system that is better suited for our future success together. I can be reached at sean at crowne-gold.com for further details regarding our position. Best regards, Sean Trainor Sean Trainor Crowne-Gold The worlds easiest way to buy, sell, hold and use gold as money. WWW.Crowne-Gold.com sean at crowne-gold.com 727-418-4905 subscribe: send blank email to dgcchat-join at lists.goldmoney.com unsubscribe: send blank email to dgcchat-leave at lists.goldmoney.com digest: send an email to dgcchat-request at lists.goldmoney.com with "set yourname at yourdomain.com digest" in the message body --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From tcmay at got.net Mon Aug 26 21:53:53 2002 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 21:53:53 -0700 Subject: The $7 million hack (was re: [dgc.chat] Crowne Gold Update) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Monday, August 26, 2002, at 08:37 PM, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > --- begin forwarded text > > Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 19:14:44 -0400 > From: Sean Trainor > Subject: [dgc.chat] Crowne Gold Update > To: GoldMoney List Server > Organization: Crowne Gold > ... > Update: Crowne Gold ...long account of nature of intrusion elided.... > By getting an administrator to respond directly to email, the hackers > gained access to a computer half a world away from the front-end server > and > eventually captured administrative logons. The primary server system > was > not attacked until Carnival was in full swing in the Caribbean from > whence Crowne Gold customer service functions are provided. When it was > discovered that hackers had penetrated the system, IP addresses were put > under trace and the information gained was submitted to Interpol. And what will happen if and when TLAs decide the best way to undermine confidence in upstart, anarchic extra-governmental banks who haven't been paying bribes and taxes for generations, like some Swiss banks, etc. is to hack them, drain the accounts, or at least shut them down for distressing amounts of time? Will Interpol do anything when HMRG or POTUS was behind the attack? And considering that CERT wants to be notified first of any identified weaknesses, and presumably they and others in HomeSec and other BlackOps TLAs know weaknesses not yet publicized or fixed, wanna bet whether they could attack many of the upstart offshore banks? > As you may be aware, Crowne Gold absorbed the former 3PGold whose > front-end > server was located at Havenco at the Principality of Sealand. Havenco > is > physically secure but when the hackers accessed Crowne Golds equipment > at > the Havenco server farm, there was no one on location at Havenco to > support > the several IT persons on the Crowne Gold side who desperately needed on > site assistance. It took several days for Havenco staff to respond to > calls for assistance and then it became immediately apparent that those > in > communication were nowhere near the actual Havenco platform. You have just now realized that the Sealand platform is minimally staffed? We heard this a couple of years ago, straight from people who ought to know. Seems to me that you have not done due diligence.... (I mean, how can Ryan be on the platform and also be on his way to Burning Man? (As an example...I haven't heard from Ryan in a long while, but I know that at one time he was administering the Sealand routers and boxes remotely.) > Again we apologize for the delay. We have been rudely educated. Yet as > things go it has been a dramatic wake-up call and probably the best time > possible for us to live through this experience. This will not be the last such attack. Nor could it be expected to be. Banks have been robbed, blackmailed, threatened, and even burned for thousands of years. If digital banking (in its various forms) is successful at all, it will be attacked. Some will try to attack these banks because that's where the money is, as Willie Sutton used to say. Others will attack because of the threat the digital banks pose, to other banks, to tax collectors, to the status quo. For this second class of attackers, disrupting or tarnishing the reputation of the operation is enough. Much more could be said on this. --Tim May From rah at shipwright.com Mon Aug 26 20:37:33 2002 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 23:37:33 -0400 Subject: The $7 million hack (was re: [dgc.chat] Crowne Gold Update) Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text From jason at lunkwill.org Mon Aug 26 19:39:15 2002 From: jason at lunkwill.org (Jason Holt) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 02:39:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Chaum's unpatented ecash scheme Message-ID: [...] >> Speaking of anonymous, you should give credit in your paper to Anonymous >> for discovering the possibility of marking Lucre coins, in a coderpunks >> posting at >> http://www.mail-archive.com/coderpunks at toad.com/msg02186.html, and for >> inventing the Type II Defence, both in the posting above and amplifed >> at http://www.mail-archive.com/coderpunks at toad.com/msg02323.html. >> >> It may seem pointless to credit anonymous postings, but it makes the >> historical record more clear. > > Anonymous _is_ creditted, but I can add the specific URLs. [...] I've got a paper ready to publish that uses this technique for digital credentials. It'll be nice to have it at least referenced in the literature, since Ben's paper is the only place I know of where it's really explained. I give a URL for it as well as credit to Anonymous, but it would be helpful to know who really should be credited with what. I'm listing it as Laurie's method since he wrote the Lucre paper, but I haven't been able to tell how much David Wagner had to do with the idea. Ben? David? The URLs to the Anon messages are handy; I'll see about including them too. -J From cypherpunks at Algebra.COM Tue Aug 27 04:18:43 2002 From: cypherpunks at Algebra.COM (cypherpunks at Algebra.COM) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 06:18:43 -0500 Subject: This is the answer to all my money problem's Message-ID: <4HD39H.4M3AMG065W2O0BR5.cypherpunks@algebra.com> All our mailings are sent complying with the proposed H.R. 3113 Unsolicited Commercial Electronic Mail Act of 2000. Please see the bottom of this message for further information and removal instructions. PARENTS OF 15 - YEAR OLD - FIND $71,000 CASH HIDDEN IN HIS CLOSET! Does this headline look familiar? Of course it does. You most likely have just seen this story recently featured on a major nightly news program (USA). And reported elsewhere in the world (including my neck of the woods - New Zealand). His mother was cleaning and putting laundry away when she came across a large brown paper bag that was suspiciously buried beneath some clothes and a skateboard in the back of her 15-year-old sons closet. Nothing could have prepared her for the shock she got when she opened the bag and found it was full of cash. Five-dollar bills, twenties, fifties and hundreds - all neatly rubber-banded in labeled piles. "My first thought was that he had robbed a bank", says the 41-year-old woman, "There was over $71,000 dollars in that bag -- that's more than my husband earns in a year". The woman immediately called her husband at the car-dealership where he worked to tell him what she had discovered. He came home right away and they drove together to the boy's school and picked him up. Little did they suspect that where the money came from was more shocking than actually finding it in the closet. As it turns out, the boy had been sending out, via E-mail, a type of "Report" to E-mail addresses that he obtained off the Internet. Everyday after school for the past 2 months, he had been doing this right on his computer in his bedroom. "I just got the E-mail one day and I figured what the heck, I put my name on it like the instructions said and I started sending it out", says the clever 15-year-old. The E-mail letter listed 5 addresses and contained instructions to send one $5 dollar bill to each person on the list, then delete the address at the top and move the others addresses down, and finally to add your name to the top of the list. The letter goes on to state that you would receive several thousand dollars in five-dollar bills within 2 weeks if you sent out the letter with your name at the top of the 5-address list. "I get junk E-mail all the time, and really did not think it was going to work", the boy continues. Within the first few days of sending out the E-mail, the Post Office Box that his parents had gotten him for his video-game magazine subscriptions began to fill up with not magazines, but envelopes containing $5 bills. "About a week later I rode [my bike] down to the post office and my box had 1 magazine and about 300 envelopes stuffed in it. There was also a yellow slip that said I had to go up to the [post office] counter. I thought I was in trouble or something (laughs)". He goes on, "I went up to the counter and they had a whole box of more mail for me. I had to ride back home and empty out my backpack because I could not carry it all". Over the next few weeks, the boy continued sending out the E-mail."The money just kept coming in and I just kept sorting it and stashing it in the closet, barely had time for my homework". He had also been riding his bike to several of the banks in his area and exchanging the $5 bills for twenties, fifties and hundreds. I didn't want the banks to get suspicious so I kept riding to different banks with like five thousand at a time in my backpack. I would usually tell the lady at the bank counter that my dad had sent me in to exchange the money] and he was outside waiting for me. One time the lady gave me a really strange look and told me that she would not be able to do it for me and my dad would have to come in and do it, but I just rode to the next bank down the street (laughs)." Surprisingly, the boy did not have any reason to be afraid. The reporting news team examined and investigated the so-called "chain-letter" the boy was sending out and found that it was not a chain-letter at all. In fact, it was completely legal according to US Postal and Lottery Laws, Title 18, Section 1302 and 1341, or Title 18, Section 3005 in the US code, also in the code of federal regulations, Volume 16, Sections 255 and 436, which state a product or service must be exchanged for money received. Every five-dollar bill that he received contained a little note that read, "Please send me report number XYX". This simple note made the letter legal because he was exchanging a service (A Report on how-to) for a five-dollar fee. [This is the end of the media release. If you would like to understand how the system works and get your $71,000 - please continue reading. What appears below is what the 15-year-old was sending out on the net - YOU CAN USE IT TOO - just follow the simple instructions]. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ BE FINANCIALLY FREE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!! Before you say "Bull", please read the following. This is the letter you have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the Internet, a national weekly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of this program described below, to see if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved once and for all that there are "absolutely NO Laws prohibiting the participation in the program and if people can follow the simple instructions, they are bound to make some megabucks with only $25 out of pocket cost". DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER. Note* follow the directions below, I had best results the second time when I hired a bulk email service in addition to following the reports instructions. In order for all of us to be successful, many, many emails must be sent so that the returns are many. I have been extremely successful using the following company. They send out the offers, and all I do is accept money for reports, then I send back to the people as soon as possible. This is what one had to say: "Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I was approached many times before but each time I passed on it. I am so glad I finally joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received total $610,470.00 in 21 weeks, with money still coming in". Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Here is another testimonial: "This program has been around for a long time but I never believed in it. But one day when I received this again in the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the simple instructions and walaa ..... 3 weeks later the money started to come in. First month I only made $240.00 but the next 2 months after that I made a total of $290,000.00. So far, in the past 8 months by re- entering the program, I have made over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again. The key to success in this program is to follow the simple steps and NOT change anything." More testimonials later but first, For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems. You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computer. Within a few days you will receive, vie e-mail, each of the 5 reports from these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it on your desk in case something happens to your computer. IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than what is instructed below in step "1 through 6" or you will loose out on majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you will also see how it does not work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter, it will NOT work!!! People have tried to put their friends/relatives names on all five thinking they could get all the money. But it does not work this way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and then nothing happened. So Do Not try to change anything other than what is instructed. Because if you do, it will not work for you. Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 1.... After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune. 2.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT #5. 3.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT #4. 4.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT #3. 5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT #2 6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ **** Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it on your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose any data. To assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing information which includes how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much more. There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going: METHOD #1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we will assume You and those involved send out only 5,000e-mails each. Let's also assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% response (the response could be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2%. Also many people will send out hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 each). Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for report # 1. Those 10 people responded by sending out 5,000 e-mail each for a total of 50,000. Out of those 50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders. That equals 100 people responded and ordered Report # 2. Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report #3. Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million e-mails sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for Report #4. Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000,000 (50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for Report #5. THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH=$500,000.00 (half million). Your total income in this example is: 1..... $50 +2..... $500 + 3.....$5,000 + 4..... $50,000 + 5..... $500,000........Grand Total=$555,550.00 NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE OUT THE WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY! +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO. Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone or half or even one 4th of those people mailed 100,000e-mails each or more? There are over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide and counting. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! METHOD #2: BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there are hundreds of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the Internet will easily get a larger response. We strongly suggest you start with Method #1 and add METHOD #2 as you go along. For every $5 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it. Always provide same day service on all orders. This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out with your name and address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they receive the report. ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper or aluminum foil. On one of those sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are ordering, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address. PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW: +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ REPORT #1: The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Net Order Report #1 from: Matt Benish 525 Sunnyslpoe Dr. #10 Hartland, WI 53029-1434 __________________________________________________________ REPORT #2: The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the Net Order Report #2 from: M. Eiseman P.O. Box 451971 Sunrise, FL 33345-1971 _________________________________________________________ REPORT #3: Secret to Multilevel marketing on the Net Order Report #3 from: GM Boland 353 Jonestown Rd. Winston-Salem, NC 27104 __________________________________________________________ REPORT #4: How to become a millionaire utilizing MLM & the Net Order Report #4 from: Mrs. Caroline Abee 113 Ervin Ave. NE Valdese, NC 28690-9601 ______________________________________________________ REPORT #5: How to send out 0ne Million emails for free Order Report #5 From: L. Samon P.O. Box 31 Castletown Isle of Man IM99 5XP Great Brittan +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: within 2 weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do. =After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you should receive 100 orders or more for REPORT #2. If you did not, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a Different report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate from this business!!! +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money in the next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put your name and address in Report#1 and moved others to #2 thru #5 as instructed above. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be on every one of them. Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW! "My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving "junk mail". I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I "knew" it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received total $ 147,200.00....all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jody in her "hobby". Mitchell Wolf, Chicago, Illinois +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back". "I was surprised when I found my medium size post office box crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that it does not matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return and so big". Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone else......11 months passed then it luckily came again...... I did not delete this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the money came within 22 weeks". Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington,D.C. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ This email was sent to you via Saf-E Mail Systems. Your email address was automatically inserted into the To and From addresses to eliminate undeliverables which waste bandwidth and cause internet congestion. Your email or webserver IS NOT being used for the sending of this mail. No-one else is receiving emails from your address. You may utilize the removal link below if you do not wish to receive this mailing. http://www.andromeda-cr.com/remove.html From profrv at nex.net.au Mon Aug 26 13:31:31 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 06:31:31 +1000 Subject: AnneThrax is just misunderstood its part of natures rich tapestry. Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020827062857.00a13ec0@mail.nex.net.au> Claim: Coulter would never want to see the NYT building harmed Melik Kaylan says Ann Coulter's foes have "tried long and hard to keep ranks closed against her to shut her out of the media game." Americans who have pushed her book to the top of the bestsellers list understand Coulter, he says, while her "infuriated critics" don't. Kaylan asks: "Why would anybody even pretend to believe that Ms. Coulter wishes any real harm to the New York Times or wishes to convert all Muslims forcibly to Christianity (a post-9/11 flight of fancy that got her fired from National Review)?" (Wall Street Journal) > Earlier: Coulter regrets McVeigh didn't blow up the NYT building Mmm,journalism as entertainment,right arm! I didn't mean to threaten any P.I.Gs! From profrv at nex.net.au Mon Aug 26 13:44:47 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 06:44:47 +1000 Subject: Mr Lee's greater Hong Kong. Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020827064400.00a161f0@mail.nex.net.au> Subject: blooberging singapore Prime Minister Goh Chok Tong was, or had been, a party to the appointment of Mdm Ho Ching as Executive Director of Temasek, not on merit, but in order to indulge the interests of the Lee family, or for some other corrupt motive relating to the promotion of the Lee family's interests, and in so doing had failed to discharge his duties as Prime Minister and / or to act in the best interests of Singapore. Senior Minister Lee Kuan Yew and Deputy Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong had procured the appointment of Mdm Ho Ching and were therefore guilty of nepotism.http://www.bloomberg.com/markets/apology.html From profrv at nex.net.au Mon Aug 26 14:53:56 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 07:53:56 +1000 Subject: 1 if by space,2 if by sea. Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020827074507.00a18140@mail.nex.net.au> I've just advised the sheik of two attack on America tactics,anything to keep him away from us. 1) Fire missiles into satellite level orbits designed to blow up and spread space junk. Those GPS dirty birds are shitting all over you. 2) Build mini-subs,infect rats with various diseases and send them in.This is an old jap idea that should be ergonomic and with a good foot and mouth outbreak,devastating. Those seppo's love their rancid fatburgers.(eat your heart out jeff.) Summer jihadi's should get out in the woods with their firelighters again,The world is for warming and shrubs are for burning. From profrv at nex.net.au Mon Aug 26 15:33:11 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 08:33:11 +1000 Subject: Veerappan making a fool of LEO's."I will finish all of you". Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020827082858.00a1c510@mail.nex.net.au> Day in the life of a Dacoit...Events that make Veerappan notorious PTI [ MONDAY, AUGUST 26, 2002 11:31:06 AM ] COIMBATORE: Lying low for nearly two years after the sensational abduction of Kannada film star Rajkumar, the elusive forest brigand, Veerappan reportedly abducted a former Karnataka Minister on Sunday night, despite strict vigilance by the Special Task Force in the nearby areas. Following are the events due to which Veerappan gained notoriety and monopolised the forest areas in three states of Karnataka, Tamil Nadu and parts of Kerala. July 1987: A Tamil Nadu forest officer Chidambaram was kidnapped and lynched Jan 1989: Five members of rival gang were kidnapped and killed Aug 1989: Three forest personnel of Begur forest range of Tamil Nadu killed. Their mutilated bodies were recovered 19 days later Jan 1990: A sub-inspector and a head constable were shot by Veerappan gang, following gunning down of two of his members by Tamil Nadu police April 1990: In a first direct attack, Veerappan ambushed and mowed down three sub-inspectors, and a constable, including Dinesh, an officer, who had been 'hot on his trial' May 1990: Constituted Special Task force to nab the poacher Nov 1990: Shot and beheaded a deputy conservator of forest R Srinivas. Feb 20 1992: Son of a granite quarry owner kidnapped in Karnataka and Rs 1 crore ransom demanded. Quarry owner paid Rs 15 lakh as ransom May 20 1992: Swooped down on Ramapura police station, killing policemen and taking away a cache of arms. June 15 1992: STF killed four of Veerappan's gang in Nellur village. Veerappan sent a note saying "I will finish all of you". Aug 14 1992: Veerappan trapped STF SP Harikrishna and 27 police personnel. Bombed Harikrishna, Ahmed and four others. April 1993: A bus carrying Tamil Nadu police personnel was blown up near Palar in a landmine blast, killing 22 persons, including civilians. S P 'Rambo' Gopalakrishna was hurt in the attack. May 1993: Attacked Karnataka SP Gopal Hosur and party at M M hills, killing six policemen. Jul 1993: BSF began operations in the forest area, nabbed 19 members of the gang. Aug 1993: Series of encounters with BSF and Veerappan gang claimed lives of 18 gang members and three policemen. Few months later, Veerappan sent an audio cassette, seeking amnesty. December 1994: DSP, Directorate of Vigilance and Anti-Corruption Chidambaranathan, and two companions kidnapped from Coimbatore district. They escape on Dec 31 after 27 days under the cover of STF onslaught. Veerappan's brother, Arjunan and two gang members Ayyadurai and Rangaswamy, surrender. Nov 1995: Three forest officials kidnapped in Anthiyur forest in Erode. Ransom of Rs.five crore sought. Twenty days later, hostages set free after Rs.3.5 lakh was paid unofficially. Dec 1995: Veerappan attacks TN STF. Two personnel killed. The attack was in retaliation to the death of Arjunan and Rangaswamy in STF custody. Jan 1996: Attack on Tamil Nadu SP, Tamil Selvan and Party, killing a constable and injuring the SP Apr 1997: After a lull of nearly one year, the bullet ridden body of his heir apparent 'baby' Veerappan was discovered from the forest. Jul 1997: 10 forest personnel kidnapped. One sent back with a surrender offer on a cassette. Aug 5: Another hostage reached Chennai with the Tamil magazine Nakkeeran editor R R Gopal. Others released later. Dec21'98 Veerappan and gang attacked Vellituurpur police station in TN, decamped with nine guns, ammunition. After this major operations, Veerappan, with reduced strength of his supporters lay low and sought amnesty and held negotiations with Tamil Nadu government. Apr28 99 Another major attack - three forest officials were kidnapped near Hogenekkal in TN's Dharmapuri District sent letters and audio cassette sent to the district Collector. Jul 2000: Kannada matinee idol Rajkumar and four others, kidnapped from Doddagajanur guest house on July 30. One of the hostages Nagappa escapes. Negotiations through Gopal and other leaders, like P Nedumaran seeking release of the actor. The actor was released after 100 days. Immediately after the release, STF and police personnel from three states intensified search operations. Veerappan and his gang were reportedly spotted near Chinnampathy forest area, bordering Kerala and in an exchange of fire, the gang fled. Some bags with medicine and arms were recovered from the place. BSF, under DIG, Vijayakumar (now Chennai Police Commissioner) was summoned to assist the STF in catching the brigand. However, due to tension along the Indian border, the force was gradually withdrawn. STF was revamped under former DGP, W I Dawaram and searches were intensified in forest areas of Erode, Salem, Nilgiris and Coimbatore districts. Many gang members, accomplices and aides were arrested from various places and huge amounts of cash recovered from them during the operation. However, the brigand is still elusive and the sojourn continues. FRONT PAGE Veerappan threatens to kill Nagappa []Govt runs out of emissaries to deal with Veerappan []Nagappa's family critical of police []TOI edit: Veerappan Again []Veerappan's road to notoriety http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/default From babes594540 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 27 07:12:28 2002 From: babes594540 at yahoo.com (babes594540 at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 10:12:28 -0400 Subject: cypher 100% FREE TEEN ACTION! Message-ID: <200208271441.g7REfI312335@aptechntc.aptech.ac.in> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1141 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ericm at lne.com Tue Aug 27 10:24:43 2002 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 10:24:43 -0700 Subject: right MTA for crypto support In-Reply-To: ; from eugen@leitl.org on Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 11:53:08AM +0200 References: Message-ID: <20020827102443.A5084@slack.lne.com> On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 11:53:08AM +0200, Eugen Leitl wrote: > I'm getting rather pissed at diverse wiretap legislations making the > global rounds (lately EU is making noises towards storing a one year deep > FIFO of all email and browsing traffic for all users), and would like to > run my own MTA, with MX fallback to ISPs. I would like to have secure > MUA-MTA (IMAP/SSL POP/SSL and MTA-MTA (if the other end supports it). lne.com's sendmail now supports START_TLS. Not that that adds any security to cpunks list mail of course. But it does increase the amount of encrypted traffic. It's relatively easy to turn on TLS in sendmail. It's not secure against active attackers that can modify the data in the TCP stream but it's better than nothing. > If anyone knows of patches which automatically query keyservers and > GPG/PGP encrypt emails to targets (this is not a deep paranoia setup, just > a cheap measure to increase encrypted mail traffic) that would be nice to > have, too. Besides START_TLS which is built in, there is probably an auto-PGP patch for sendmail. Eric From mv at cdc.gov Tue Aug 27 10:40:18 2002 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 10:40:18 -0700 Subject: onsite service in Black Rock Message-ID: <3D6BB982.57A3495F@cdc.gov> At 01:36 PM 8/27/02 +0000, Ryan Lackey wrote: >I'm not actually going to burningman this year, primarily due to low >remote access potential; I normally have a laptop and >cellphone/802.11b/100baseTX link with at most 15 minutes delay. A satphone is under $2K and its under $3 minute. Cost-cutting measures, eh? You'd think some enterprising yahoo local would futz around with yagi'd pringles and sell bits by the bucket. Slackers. From mv at cdc.gov Tue Aug 27 10:52:48 2002 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 10:52:48 -0700 Subject: Is There a Copyright Law in Islam? Message-ID: <3D6BBC70.864971BF@cdc.gov> http://www.islam-online.net/fatwaapplication/english/display.asp?hFatwaID=79181 Is there a copyright law in Islam? Some people say that knowledge is a common property and it cannot be restricted. They use the Hadith of the Prophet, peace and blessing be upon him, that "Wisdom is the lost property of a believer, it is his, wherever he may find it." What do you think of making copies of computer software? From tcmay at got.net Tue Aug 27 10:56:13 2002 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 10:56:13 -0700 Subject: Startups, Bubbles, and Unemployment In-Reply-To: <86ptw4whif.fsf@rowlf.interhack.net> Message-ID: <4715812E-B9E6-11D6-9C4B-0050E439C473@got.net> On Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 06:36 AM, Matt Curtin wrote: > Tim May presumably wrote: > > [I'm not sure if Tim actually wrote the following, as a splat > proceeded the "Back" but nothing else in the paragraph. Apologies in > advance if I'm misattributing.] This is a problem as articles get bounced around, sometimes to some of the many similar lists run by one person. > >> Back in the 1970s and early 80s, high tech start-ups were difficult >> to do. It took some really good ideas, or at least the departure of >> a talented group of people who had already developed >> something. Examples like Sun and Cisco are examples of where the >> core technology had already been developed (Stanford, in both cases) >> and where the companies could begin to SELL PRODUCTS almost >> immediately. > > I cannot help but wonder how the cycle of "start company, get > financing, hire friends, build stuff, retire rich" was influenced by > increasingly Draconian intellectual property agreements and whatnot. > I was too young for gainful employment in the 1970s, but maybe some > folks who worked in high technology at that time could shed some > light. I'm particularly interested to know whether this "we all of > your thoughts" business came about as a result of people going out on > their own to sell products they developed on their own time while in > another technology company's employ. I was there, at Intel, and will give you my thoughts on this. * When there were about 10 chip companies, extensive patent cross-licensing deals had been struck (mostly in the 1960s). There _were_ a few lawsuits (notably Fairchild suing others for violating the "oxide isolation" patents), but not many. * The focus on patents was minimal. Trade secrets were much more important. I can tell you that Intel had several tricks ("Getter III V-over-I," "Pyroglass," "Dip-back," special equipment custom-built, proprietary CAD systems long before CAD companies existed, etc.) that were not patented, just kept secret. Something crypto folks ought to appreciate. * The focus on patents was so low that our patent guy, Ed Taylor, kept his office in LA and only came up to Santa Clara a few times a year. Mostly he discouraged the filing of patents, and certainly middle managers did not encourage engineers to waste time trying to get patents. I got one during this time. A friend of mine was told not to bother to file for a patent on something that other chip companies later (two years later) were trumpetting as their patented invention. * Things began to change for many reasons. *First, the entry of the Japanese, Taiwanese, and Koreans into the market. They had not be party to the cross-licensing deals. * Second, some American companies only peripherally involved in chips attempted to sue chip companies for violating their patents (a notable example being the Hughes Corporations suits against chip companies doing ion implantation...Hughes claimed that a patent they had gotten on ion implantation meant huge royalties were due them). * Third, patent portfolios came to be seen as valuable in takeovers, as part of the "good will" that could be charged for. Some large companies bought small companies just to acquire their patents. * It is not likely that patents and IP have had much effect on movement of people between companies. Just my opinion....I see as much moving as ever. > (I know not what Stanford's intellectual property rules are, but at > Ohio State, if you develop something significant while working there > and go off to take it to market, they're almost certain to want a > piece of that action. Stanford has gotten pieces of the action from many companies. This shows up in their holdings of stocks in those companies, reported on the Form 144 Insider pages on Yahoo and other places. In the case of CISCO and Sun, I don't know all of the details, but there were no lawsuits against either. As I said, my understanding is that Stanford said "Go ahead" to those seeking to commercialize their projects. > Somewhere during all of this time, the whole "push technology" > stupidity came about, and people wanted to know how our product > stacked up against "other push products", when it wasn't really > comparable to what most of the other guys were doing. Ah, "push technology," the buzzword of around 1997, just after set-top boxes and just before whatever. > Bootstrapping a company is hard if you don't have a bunch of money to > throw at it. And, I would argue, even harder if you DO have a bunch of money to throw at it! (I watched friends burn through $8 million as they sat around thinking cool thoughts. More germanely to this list, look at several crypto start-ups who threw tens of millions at problems.) > It is possible, but requires serious financial > discipline, throughout the company. People who expect to walk into a > job with super deluxe office space, a big support staff, and a huge > salary just aren't going to find a place in a company that's getting > itself off the ground. Scott McNealy makes a lot of money now, but if > that's what he demanded from Day One, he wouldn't be at Sun. And Sun, like many other successes, had very spartan office arrangements in the beginning. Then they got big. And bloated. Now they have an entire "campus," a much more campus-like campus than most companies have. But their stock is at $4.25 and the end is coming (IMO). > >> To close on a less bleak note, this is a fine time for people to >> "get back to basics." > > Crypto still has serious problems to solve. Key management is still a > big problem. User interfaces are a big problem. Integration with > non-hacker tools is a big problem. I have differing views on these points. But that's for another time. --Tim May "Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone. I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout" --Unknown Usenet Poster From eugen at leitl.org Tue Aug 27 02:53:08 2002 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 11:53:08 +0200 (CEST) Subject: right MTA for crypto support Message-ID: I'm getting rather pissed at diverse wiretap legislations making the global rounds (lately EU is making noises towards storing a one year deep FIFO of all email and browsing traffic for all users), and would like to run my own MTA, with MX fallback to ISPs. I would like to have secure MUA-MTA (IMAP/SSL POP/SSL and MTA-MTA (if the other end supports it). If anyone knows of patches which automatically query keyservers and GPG/PGP encrypt emails to targets (this is not a deep paranoia setup, just a cheap measure to increase encrypted mail traffic) that would be nice to have, too. 1) Out of Postfix and Exim (no qmail, please), which is the MTA scoring highest on crypto support? 2) Can you give me pointers to suitable crypto patches for above MTAs? TIA, Eugen From kayakwcc at comcast.net Tue Aug 27 12:59:52 2002 From: kayakwcc at comcast.net (Sam Ritchie) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 15:59:52 -0400 Subject: right MTA for crypto support In-Reply-To: <20020827102443.A5084@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: On 8/27/02 1:24 PM, "Eric Murray" wrote: > On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 11:53:08AM +0200, Eugen Leitl wrote: >> I'm getting rather pissed at diverse wiretap legislations making the >> global rounds (lately EU is making noises towards storing a one year deep >> FIFO of all email and browsing traffic for all users), and would like to >> run my own MTA, with MX fallback to ISPs. I would like to have secure >> MUA-MTA (IMAP/SSL POP/SSL and MTA-MTA (if the other end supports it). > > > lne.com's sendmail now supports START_TLS. Not that that adds > any security to cpunks list mail of course. But it does > increase the amount of encrypted traffic. > > It's relatively easy to turn on TLS in sendmail. It's not secure > against active attackers that can modify the data in the TCP stream > but it's better than nothing. > > >> If anyone knows of patches which automatically query keyservers and >> GPG/PGP encrypt emails to targets (this is not a deep paranoia setup, just >> a cheap measure to increase encrypted mail traffic) that would be nice to >> have, too. > > Besides START_TLS which is built in, there is probably an auto-PGP patch > for sendmail. > Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that PGP's included outlook plugin provides options for automatic encryption/digital signatures... ~SAM > > Eric From xkvldfgser356 at excite.com Tue Aug 27 08:04:19 2002 From: xkvldfgser356 at excite.com (UK PRANK CALLS) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 16:04:19 +0100 Subject: Play a Hilarious Prank Call Message-ID: <200208271504.g7RF4A1c008716@ak47.algebra.com> To Play a Hilarious Prank on your mates please visit http://ukprankcalls.com From jamesd at echeque.com Tue Aug 27 16:27:18 2002 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 16:27:18 -0700 Subject: onsite service on Sealand In-Reply-To: <20020827133622.GA28132@havenco.com> Message-ID: <3D6BA866.151.3AABB8@localhost> -- On 27 Aug 2002 at 13:36, Ryan Lackey wrote: > If a customer hypothetically calls and wants a complete > security analysis done on a server, and doesn't follow the > "replace the drives in the working system with new ones, do a > restore from snapshot or reinstall, and do anaysis later" > option, we're not responsible for any delays. A little while ago, it seemed that cypherpunks was dead. There was nothing on it except for spam from Nigeria, commies, and lunatics. Now I am reading email from various people who appear to be making their living using cryptography in ways that undermine the state, and who deal with the various practical real world problems involved in such a living. I find these troubles very encouraging. The fact that people encounter such predictable troubles shows they are really doing what they talk about, and when they encounter these problems, they seem to proceed with competent and effectual solutions. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG HcJC+F+nHfocXB5cx8e5xihyUc8zIRgYkHIA9rSH 2z7Vmfw8yreIdTJ88bYCphFaZUo4LPvcMHFy7EKYb From shamrock at cypherpunks.to Tue Aug 27 16:51:15 2002 From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 16:51:15 -0700 Subject: right MTA for crypto support In-Reply-To: <20020827102443.A5084@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: <000101c24e24$a3abf520$6f9ffea9@xpserver> Eric wrote: > On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 11:53:08AM +0200, Eugen Leitl wrote: > > I'm getting rather pissed at diverse wiretap legislations > making the > > global rounds (lately EU is making noises towards storing a > one year > > deep FIFO of all email and browsing traffic for all users), > and would > > like to run my own MTA, with MX fallback to ISPs. I would > like to have > > secure MUA-MTA (IMAP/SSL POP/SSL and MTA-MTA (if the other end > > supports it). > > > lne.com's sendmail now supports START_TLS. Not that that > adds any security to cpunks list mail of course. But it does > increase the amount of encrypted traffic. There are a bunch of projects that either work on or have completed integration of PGP at the MTA-level. A post to the OpenPGP lists should round up the candidates. Either way, I agree with Eric that turning on STARTTLS support in MTA's has become so easy that I would be hard pressed to come up with reasons why one wouldn't. I know that enabling STARTTLS is trivial in postfix and I am told that STARTTLS ships with exim and at least the Debian build of sendmail. Either way, I would recommend to first enable STARTTLS in your MTA and only after that start looking at PGP integrations. (I fully understand that STARTTLS and PGP fulfill different needs and address different thread models). --Lucky Green From ryan at havenco.com Tue Aug 27 11:10:55 2002 From: ryan at havenco.com (Ryan Lackey) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 18:10:55 +0000 Subject: onsite service in Black Rock In-Reply-To: <3D6BB982.57A3495F@cdc.gov> References: <3D6BB982.57A3495F@cdc.gov> Message-ID: <20020827181054.GA24188@leopard.venona.net> Quoting Major Variola (ret) : > > A satphone is under $2K and its under $3 minute. Cost-cutting measures, > eh? It's more that I'm not willing to take my nice new thinkpad and satphone and other stuff into the desert, as it would either be left unattended, or carried around while distinctly non-sober. Plus, it's a bit hot out for electronics stored in a tent all day; without a car, it's a bit more difficult. And the salt... Next year, an RV, but I don't have a drivers license yet. Camping is nice, but not around other people; I'd rather be in a very small group hiking and camping, or in a 4+ star hotel; an RV would be good enough for a week. Also, way too many of my bay area friends are broke this year, actively searching for jobs, and thus can't show up -- hopefully next year. I think people actually have 802.11b working pretty extensively, with a Tachyon-based uplink (originally provided by John Gilmore; not sure about this year); I have a spare tachyon setup which I'd take if I had a nice vehicle on which to mount it, and in which to mount the indoor unit, generator, etc. HAL2001 was 100x better than burningman anyway, and had gigabit connectivity. Just going off into the desert to do experimental rocket launches is probably even better. > You'd think some enterprising yahoo local would futz around with yagi'd > pringles > and sell bits by the bucket. Slackers. -- Ryan Lackey [RL7618 RL5931-RIPE] ryan at havenco.com CTO and Co-founder, HavenCo Ltd. +44 7970 633 277 the free world just milliseconds away http://www.havenco.com/ OpenPGP 4096: B8B8 3D95 F940 9760 C64B DE90 07AD BE07 D2E0 301F From marketing at cd-uk.net Tue Aug 27 10:13:15 2002 From: marketing at cd-uk.net (Computer Developments UK) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 18:13:15 +0100 Subject: Get Microsoft Office 2000 now before it is too late! Message-ID: This is your FINAL CHANCE to buy Microsoft Office 2000 Professional, we have very few copies of this left in stock, so please call us on 01993 849200 as soon as possible to get your copy. CD plus License only £175 while stocks last. Call us now on 01993 849200, offer ends 30th August. Regards The Sales Team Computer Developments UK All Offers are made subject to availability. Prices quoted are exclusive of VAT. All trademarks acknowledged. All sales subject to CD-UK's Terms and Conditions. To be removed from our email list please reply with remove as the subject and also stating email address if different from the one you are using, thank you. Computer Developments UK, Waterside Court, Witan Way, Witney, Oxfordshire, OX28 6FE Telephone: 01993 849200 Fax: 0870 458 2385 Email:mailto:sales at cd-uk.net From schear at lvcm.com Tue Aug 27 18:39:53 2002 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 18:39:53 -0700 Subject: When Feds are the Crackers Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020827183925.051d4c38@pop3.lvcm.com> When Feds are the Crackers U.S. courts should join Russia in saying "nyet" to the FBI's lawless international hack attacks. By Mark Rasch Aug 26, 2002 In medieval times, attackers would use a bell-shaped metal grenade or "petard" to break enemy defenses. These unreliable devices frequently went off unexpectedly, destroying not only the enemy, but the attacker. As Shakespeare noted, "'tis the sport to have the enginer Hoist with his owne petar." 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Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2016 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nobody at coollist.com Tue Aug 27 13:12:03 2002 From: nobody at coollist.com (Coollist Subscription) Date: 27 Aug 2002 20:12:03 -0000 Subject: nosex Registration Message-ID: <20020827201203.67355.qmail@mtx.coollist.com> Hello This is the automatic list management system for the nosex at coollist.com mailing list. This is a FREE service. Before you can participate in discussions or receive postings to this group, we must confirm that you actually want to receive them. A short description of the nosex list: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Over 5000+ Electronic / Computer Products and Supplies ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you would like to participate in this mailing list, please visit the following web page on the web: http://28.nu/vrfy/?1030479123.nosex.847705 If you would like more information about this mailing list, please visit the following URL: http://www.coollist.com/group.cgi?l=nosex ################################################################### You have not been added to this list until you have confirmed your subscription by visiting the above webpage. If you do not wish to accept his/her invitation or if this email has been sent to you in error, please disregard this email. If you feel that this email is an abuse of our network/services, please email support at coollist.com. ################################################################### Thank you. This mailing list is managed FREE by: Coollist - The FREE Mailing List (http://www.coollist.com) [63.164.179.98 ] From jim at storage.network.com Tue Aug 27 18:56:46 2002 From: jim at storage.network.com (Jim Hughes) Date: 27 Aug 2002 20:56:46 -0500 Subject: Call For Papers, First International Security In Storage Workshop Message-ID: <1030499806.2702.2276.camel@jimsguin> Call for Papers First IEEE International Security In Storage Workshop December 11th, 2002 -- Greenbelt, Maryland, USA http://ieee-tfia.org/sisw2002 Sponsored by the IEEE Computer Society Task Force on Information Assurance and the IEEE Security In Storage Working Group The ability to create large shared storage systems in a secure manner is an area that has received little formal research or results. A comprehensive, systems approach to storage security is required if storage consolidation is to succeed. This workshop serves as an open forum to discuss storage threats, technologies, methodologies and deployment. The workshop seeks submissions from academia and industry presenting novel research on all theoretical and practical aspects of designing, building and managing secure storage systems; possible topics include, but are not limited to the following: - Cryptographic Algorithms for Storage - Cryptanalysis of Existing and Proposed Systems and Protocols - Key Management for Storage Novel Implementations - Attacks on Storage Area - Networks and Storage Systems - Insider Attack Countermeasures - Standardization Approaches - Deployment of Secure Storage Mechanisms - Defining and Defending Trust Boundaries in Storage - Security in Federated Systems - Relating Storage Security to System and Network Security - Security for Internet Storage Service Providers The goal of the workshop is to disseminate new research, and to bring together researchers and practitioners from both governmental and civilian areas. Accepted papers will be published by IEEE Press in a proceedings volume. Program Co-Chairs - James Hughes (StorageTek, USA) - Jack Cole (US Army Research Laboratory, USA) Program Committee - Donald Beaver (Seagate, USA) - Randal Burns (Johns Hopkins University, USA) - Richard Chow (USA) - Peter Haas (University of Stuttgart, Germany) - Yongdae Kim (University of Minnesota, USA) - Ben Kobler (NASA Goddard Space Flight Center, USA) - Fabio Maino (Andiamo Systems, USA) - Ethan Miller (University of California Santa Cruz, USA) - David McGrew (Cisco Systems, USA) - Andrew Odlyzko (University of Minnesota, USA) - Tatsuaki Okamoto (NTT, Japan) - Jean-Jacques Quisquater (Universite Catholique de Louvain, Belgium) - Pierangela Samarati (University of Milan, Italy) - Rodney Van Meter (Nokia, USA) Submissions Papers must list all authors and affiliations, begin with a title, a short abstract, a list of key words, and an introduction. The introduction should summarize the contributions of the paper at a level appropriate for a non-specialist reader. Papers may be submitted in ASCII text, PostScript, PDF, HTML, or Microsoft Word. Papers should be at most 15 pages in length including the bibliography, figures, and appendices (using 10pt body text and twocolumn layout). Authors are responsible for obtaining appropriate clearances. Authors of accepted papers will be asked to sign IEEEcopyright release forms. Final submissions must be in camera-ready PostScript or PDF. Authors of accepted papers must guarantee that their paper will be presented at the conference. Papers that duplicate work that any of the authors have or will publish elsewhere are acceptable for presentation at the workshop. However, only original papers will be considered for publication in the proceedings. Important Dates Paper due: October 11, 2002 Notification of acceptance: November 1, 2002 Final papers due: November 25, 2002 Workshop: December 11, 2002 Submissions and questions should be sent electronically to James Hughes -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From comsec.os at virgin.net Tue Aug 27 13:11:58 2002 From: comsec.os at virgin.net (comsec os) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 22:11:58 +0200 Subject: onsite service in Black Rock References: <3D6BB982.57A3495F@cdc.gov> Message-ID: <002e01c24e06$02a78ae0$8c040150@j7fgu> jajaj regards Capt Rowdon pj for comsec.international Group ----- Original Message ----- From: "Major Variola (ret)" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 7:40 PM Subject: Re: onsite service in Black Rock > > At 01:36 PM 8/27/02 +0000, Ryan Lackey wrote: > >I'm not actually going to burningman this year, primarily due to low > >remote access potential; I normally have a laptop and > >cellphone/802.11b/100baseTX link with at most 15 minutes delay. > > A satphone is under $2K and its under $3 minute. Cost-cutting measures, > eh? > > You'd think some enterprising yahoo local would futz around with yagi'd > pringles > and sell bits by the bucket. Slackers. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Major Variola (ret)" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 7:40 PM Subject: Re: onsite service in Black Rock > > At 01:36 PM 8/27/02 +0000, Ryan Lackey wrote: > >I'm not actually going to burningman this year, primarily due to low > >remote access potential; I normally have a laptop and > >cellphone/802.11b/100baseTX link with at most 15 minutes delay. > > A satphone is under $2K and its under $3 minute. Cost-cutting measures, > eh? > > You'd think some enterprising yahoo local would futz around with yagi'd > pringles > and sell bits by the bucket. Slackers. From ted at port-glasgow.com Tue Aug 27 21:12:42 2002 From: ted at port-glasgow.com (ted) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 05:12:42 +0100 Subject: An opportunity for you. It is an advert, but well worth reading! Message-ID: <200208280411.g7S4BnJ80175@locust.minder.net> Hi there You get emails every day, offering to show you how to make money. Most of these emails are from people who are NOT making any money. And they expect you to listen to them? If you want to make money with your computer, then you should hook up with a group that is actually DOING it. We are making a large, continuing income every month. What's more - we will show YOU how to do the same thing. This business can be done completely by internet and email, and you can even join for free to check it out first. If you can send an email, you can do this. No special "skills" are required. How much are we making? Below are a few examples. These are real people, and most of them work at this business part-time. But keep in mind, they do WORK at it - I am not going to insult your intelligence by saying you can sign up, do no work, and rake in the cash. That kind of job does not exist. But if you are willing to put in 10-12 hours per week, this might be just the thing you are looking for. N. Gallagher: $3000 per month T. Hopkins: $1000 per month S. Johnson: $6000 -$7000 per month V. Patalano: $2000 per month M. South: $5000 per month J. Henslin: $7000 per month This is not income that is determined by luck, or work that is done FOR you - it is all based on your effort. But, as I said, there are no special skills required. And this income is RESIDUAL - meaning that it continues each month (and it tends to increase each month also). Interested? I invite you to find out more. You can get in as a free member, at no cost, and no obligation to continue if you decide it is not for you. We are just looking for people who still have that "burning desire" to find an opportunity that will reward them incredibly well, if they work at it. To grab a FREE ID#, simply sign up at http://www.geocities.com/bizted/ or reply to this email. subject line "Give me a FREE ID #" and write this phrase: "Email me details about the club's business and consumer opportunities" Be sure to include your: 1. First name 2. Last name 3. Email address (if different from above) We will confirm your position and send you a special report as soon as possible, and also Your free Member Number. That's all there's to it. We'll then send you info, and you can make up your own mind. Looking forward to hearing from you! Sincerely, Ted P.S. After having negative experiences with network marketing companies I had pretty much given up on them. This is different - there is value, integrity, and a REAL opportunity to have your own home-based business... and finally make real money on the internet. Don't pass this up..you can sign up and test-drive the program for FREE. All you need to do is get your free membership. **************************************************************** This e-mail is sent in compliance with strict anti- abuse and NO SPAM regulations. Your address was collected as a result of either posting to a link, a free classified ad, or you have sent me your business proposition by e-mail in the past. You may remove your e-mail address at no cost to you whatsoever by simply clicking on the Reply button and typing "Remove" in the subject line. ******************************************************************** From profrv at nex.net.au Tue Aug 27 12:20:21 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 05:20:21 +1000 Subject: Austin Powers cut by Dr Evil Empire. Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020828051834.00a18c70@mail.nex.net.au> http://www.infoshop.org/inews/stories.php?story=02/08/27/4534988 LOS ANGELES - August 26th, Federal prosecutors are indicting Sherman Austin, 19 year old founder / webmaster of Raise the Fist (http://www.RaisetheFist.com), an anarchist independent media / direct action network. Sherman is being charged with 2 felony violations of the following: 18 U.S.C. 842 (p)(2)(A): DISTRIBUTION OF INFORMATION RELATING TO EXPLOSIVES, DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES, AND WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION WITH THE INTENT THAT SUCH INFORMATION BE USED IN FURTHERANCE OF A FEDERAL CRIME OF VIOLENCE; 26 U.S.C. 5861(d): POSSESSION OF A FIREARM WHICH IS NOT REGISTERED TO HIM IN THE NATIONAL FIREARMS REGISTRATION AND TRANSFER RECORD. Sherman rejected a guilty plea today in court offering him 1 month in jail, 5 months in a half-way house and 3 years supervised release. If found guilty in trial, Sherman could serve a maximum of 3-4 years in prison. On January 24th, 2002, Sherman became one of the first victims of the new USA Patriot Act when 25 heavily armed FBI agents and secret service surrounded and raided his home in Los Angeles because of his anarchist web site http://www.raisethefist.com. The entire server was shut down, all computer equipment along with political literature, even protest signs were seized and loaded into a big white truck. Sherman was not arrested until a week later when he decided to attend the World Economic Forum protests in New York. He was arrested by New York police after being targeted law enforcement officials. After spending nearly 30 hours in jail, Sherman was taken into a back room in hand cuffs and interrogated by the FBI and Secret Service for several hours. 10 minutes later he was released from jail with charges dropped. Within minutes he was re-arrested by 6 FBI agents and placed in maximum security federal prison. At his bail hearing he was accused of driving 3,000 miles carry out his "plot" of mass destruction against the WEF event, and on the way back to "blow up" the Olympics in Salt Lake City, Utah. Even though federal agents searched his car in New York, and found absolutely nothing, and there was a blatant lack of evidence, he was denied bail and the judge ordered Sherman be transported to California with a US Marshal escort, as the judge felt "the Government has also shown by clear and convincing evidence that there is a very serious risk of danger to the community" While awaiting finial extradition to California at a "hub" for prisoners in Oklahoma. Thomas Mrozek, public affairs officer for the U.S. attorney's office in Los Angeles said, "We have opted not to seek an indictment at this time. We are continuing to investigate the matter, but as of right now, he's off the hook." 6 months later, Sherman now faces federal felony charges as he awaits a grand jury indictment before trial. Link: http://www.raisethefist.com Comment. From profrv at nex.net.au Tue Aug 27 12:49:20 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 05:49:20 +1000 Subject: Vigilantism on the Internet. Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020828054534.00a1a050@mail.nex.net.au> Cartoon of "I won the AP lottery at www.antistate.com and http://news.com.com/2008-1082-955417.html?tag=fd_nc_1 newsmakers ASPEN, Colorado--The copyright wars on Capitol Hill have begun to drift into the political equivalent of trench warfare, with Hollywood and the music industry pitted against hardware makers, electronics manufacturers, and ragtag activists at nonprofit groups. Also you have no ID,get used to it. http://news.com.com/2010-1071-955441.html From profrv at nex.net.au Tue Aug 27 13:53:52 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 06:53:52 +1000 Subject: Savvydata countermeasures Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020828065255.00a1c380@mail.nex.net.au> As the notoriety of hackers and cyberterrorists grows, there's a tendency to forget about the threat to computer networks from disgruntled employees or insiders committing economic espionage or financial crimes. In recent years, corporations and governments have rushed to construct network firewalls, add antivirus software and set up intrusion detector systems, but none of those security tools can stop the determined insider from stealing company secrets or diverting funds or stock. Yet more than a third of all corporate computer crime is the result of unauthorized access by insiders, according to the 2002 survey by the Computer Security Institute/Federal Bureau of Investigation. While the percentage of computer crime committed by insiders has fallen as the attacks from outside hackers via the Internet has grown, the Computer Security Institute warns "the insider threat is still very real and very costly." A Fort Lauderdale firm, Savvydata Inc., has developed a security program, called RedAlert, specifically designed to thwart that insider with a bad attitude or a criminal bent. RedAlert can protect sensitive data in a variety of applications from being accessed, printed, e-mailed, copied or saved to a disk by unauthorized employees on the network and provide a secure audit trail. It can block any unauthorized action and send an immediate alert, either to a company's own system administrator, or to Savvydata's monitoring service, which is based in the NAP of the Americas in Miami for added security. It can also lock down data in laptops that turn up missing. If a wayward executive with full access does try to steal data, he may not be blocked, but he could still generate an alert, and will definitely leave a clear audit trail behind, which may well act as a deterrent. Each company sets its own policy for each document and each employee and can even set the hours of authorized access. Michael Nevins, chief executive officer of Savvydata, called RedAlert a type of intrusion detector software -- only from the inside out. Like most of the executives at Savvydata, Nevins comes from a law enforcement background. In 1991, he headed up Colorado's High Technologies Crime Unit, which assisted city, county and state law enforcement agencies in investigating computer crimes. He later started his own company, Millennium Investigations, which was acquired by Savvydata in 2000. RedAlert is a new product that is currently being evaluated by 22 companies around the world, from Norway to Korea, Nevins said. Savvydata recently signed on with DynTek Inc., an Irvine, Calif.-based systems integrator and technology consultant for state and local governments, to include RedAlert in the product mix it offers to customers. "RedAlert brings to the table a very specific solution at the desktop level in a market that is wide open," said J. Hansen, DynTek's national director for security services, who said his company evaluated numerous security solutions before partnering with Savvydata. "There are not a lot of competing products that do exactly what they do. It is absolutely prime for our markets." While there are other software products aimed at nabbing insiders, most take a different approach, monitoring network traffic or operating system logs. RedAlert monitors specific activity related to specific documents or files. The product is also going to be featured in a leading trade magazine, Information Security, as its September Hot Pick, according to associate editor Christine St. Pierre. But RedAlert is only one part of Savvydata, which also has an online database search division, and an investigative computer forensics division. The searches are often used for pre-employment screenings and legal cases, and the forensic investigations extract evidence from computers primarily for use in court. The company hopes to create some synergy between its RedAlert product and its data-mining capabilities. The plan is to offer a package that would investigate employees caught by RedAlert trying to breach network security policies. The profile might be set up to flag personal activities such as a recent bankruptcy or an arrest related to substance abuse. "Employees' activities are influenced by their outside lives," Nevins said. "This would add an outside perspective to internal computer security." Nevins admits the concept can be a little scary, but adds that in today's environment, it is more important than ever to protect inside information. Such profiles would be generated not across the board, but for employees whose behavior has taken them "past the point of just being suspicious," he said. The database and forensic investigations divisions of Savvydata are profitable, and are expected to produce $1 million in revenues this year, Nevins said. But the overall company, which has raised $6.2 million from angel investors and private placements since it was formed in 1997, is not. However, Nevins said there are $56 million worth of pending contracts for RedAlert, and he anticipates sales of the product by the end of the year. He said he expects Savvydata to be profitable in the fourth quarter.END. Countermeasures? From profrv at nex.net.au Tue Aug 27 14:16:54 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 07:16:54 +1000 Subject: "jesus POWELL! How do you know that's not just some terrorist pulling your chain." Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020828071509.00a1f130@mail.nex.net.au> Media Transparency The Powell Manifesto How A Prominent Lawyer's Attack Memo Changed America Jerry M. Landay POSTED AUGUST 20, 2002 -- America's Second Gilded Age has been scoured of its glitter, along with the platitudes that its town criers preached -- "too much government," "market infallibility," and "prosperity forever." The house that so-called New Conservatism built has operated on the principle that "ideas have consequences." The principal "ideas" they marketed were individual gain over public good, deregulation, big tax cuts, and privatization. For two decades, since the installation of Ronald Reagan in 1980, the radical right has run a tightly coordinated campaign to seal its hold on the organs of power, ranging from the highest law courts to the largest corporations, from the White House to Capitol Hill, from television tubes to editorial pages, and across college campuses. They have constructed a well-paid activist apparatus of idea merchants and marketeers -- scholars, writers, journalists, publishers, and critics - to sell policies whose intent was to ratchet wealth upward. They have intimidated the mainstream media, and filled the vacuum with editors, columnists, talk-show hosts, and pundits who have turned conservatism into a career tool. They have waged a culture war to reduce the rich social heritage of liberalism to a pejorative. And they have propagated a mythic set of faux-economic values that have largely served those who financed the movement in the first place They shifted the nation rightward; tilted the distribution of the nation's assets away from the middle class and the poor, the elderly, and the young; they red-penciled laws and legal precedents at the heart of American justice. They aimed to corporatize Medicare and Social Security. They marketed class values while accusing their opponents of "class warfare." They loosened or repealed the rights and protections of organized labor and the poor, voters, and minorities. They slashed the taxes of corporations and the rich, and rolled back the economic gains of the rest. They came to dominate or heavily influence centers of scholarship, law, and politics, education, and governance - or put new ones in their place. Their litigation teams nearly overthrew an elected President. And, to maintain power, proclaimed Constitutionalists on the right, to this day, wage a concerted counter- revolution against such Constitutional guarantees as free speech and separation of church and state Movement conservatism was a power tool formulated by scholars such as Irving Kristol, political organizers like the late Treasury Secretary William Simon, opinion molders and popularizers such as William F. Buckley, and a phalanx of think-tank operatives including Edwin Feulner and Paul Weyrich. A highly integrated front of activist organizations has been generously funded by the banking and oil money of the Mellon-Scaifes of Pittsburgh, the manufacturing fortunes of Lynde and Harry Bradley of Milwaukee, the energy revenues of the Koch family of Kansas, the chemical profits of John M. Olin of New York, the Vicks patent-medicine empire of the Smith Richardson family of Greensboro, N.C., and the brewing assets of the Coors dynasty of Colorado, and others. Their grants have paid for a veritable constellation of think tanks, pressure groups, special-interest foundations, litigation centers, scholarly research and funding endowments, publishing and TV production houses, media attack operations, political consultancies, polling mills, and public-relations operations. The concerted campaigns they run, also underwritten by such self-interested corporations as those in healthcare, pharmaceuticals, and finance, have weakened the AARP, the Food and Drug Administration, Head Start, Medicare, and welfare programs. This has amounted to the greatest organized power grab in American political history. Astonishingly, it goes largely unreported on television, radio, and most newspapers Its media-attack tactics have largely silenced the critical attention of the mainstream press. Americans, therefore, remain largely unaware of the sweeping changes movement conservatism has wrought Few are aware of the critical role played in the political power shift rightward by a prominent Richmond attorney and community leader, Lewis F. Powell, Jr., at the very threshold of a distinguished career on the U.S. Supreme Court Jerry M. Landay has produced public-affairs programs for PBS and commentaries for NPR. He is assoc. professor emeritus in journalism at the University of Illinois, a former CBS and ABC news correspondent, and writes on national and media issues. [This is a very long, but very important article. I hope you will click through and read the entire piece. We MUST fight back. If you haven’t signed up to contribute the price of one movie ticket per month to support Buy Back Our Government, I hope you will do so now.—Caro] And here’s the memo that started it all, also posted at Media Transparency ATTACK ON AMERICAN FREE ENTERPRISE SYSTEM On August 23, 1971, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce distributed the Powell Memorandum to its national membership of leading executives, businesses, and trade associations. The memo, published here in its entirety, constituted the entire contents of the issue of its regular publication WASHINGTON REPORT to members. It bore the headline: CONFIDENTIAL MEMO. ATTACK ON AMERICAN FREE ENTERPRISE SYSTEM. From profrv at nex.net.au Tue Aug 27 14:36:00 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 07:36:00 +1000 Subject: If everything can ultimately be liberated, then why bother trying to control it? Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020828073234.00a17c10@mail.nex.net.au> http://www.ozzie.net/blog/stories/2002/08/22/nondiscretionaryControlsCantLiveWithemCant.html Nondiscretionary Controls: can't live with 'em, can't... ...can't get 'em right. In my quest to build real security into both Notes and Groove, I've repeatedly run into tough issues related to nondiscretionary controls and other challenges in the ex post facto control of released information. I'm well aware of the fact that this sounds, to most people, like a very geeky and obscure problem; something that they shouldn't have to deal with. But in fact it's an issue that's at the forefront of Hollywood's digital dilemma, and it's something that every PC user should really understand. And it's probably worth a rant. Let me first try to explain it in straightforward terms: 1) In order to view or use or otherwise consume information on your PC - regardless of whether it's text, or music, or numbers in a spreadsheet - the information must first be transmitted to your PC. It's there, on your PC. 2) The originator of that information sometimes wishes to exercise restrictive controls over how you may consume that information, even once it's resident on your PC. Perhaps they want to limit it to one listening, or one viewing. Maybe they don't want you to press the "Print Screen" key. Maybe they don't want you exporting it, or forwarding it to someone else, or taking it with you after you leave the company. Let's refer to this as "Digital Restrictions Management", or DRM. 3) Let's even go further and say that you are the original creator of content. But that you create it within the context of a DRM system. Thus, a party other than the creator can limit the creator's free will in exercising control over the content that they created. Welcome to the world of Nondiscretionary Controls. That is, controls that can involuntarily release you of your control. Why is this an issue? Well, people who are serious about security insist that, on principle, you shouldn't give people a false sense of security by creating products that protect information with a veneer that can trivially be stripped away by a competent programmer, engineer, or rocket scientist. The simple rule of thumb is as follows: if the data is on your PC and can be consumed even once, it's ultimately uncontrollable. Why? Because then it's just a matter of cleverness and time and cost before someone can "liberate" it from its controls. (Trusted Computing initiatives and efforts such as Palladium aim to close even these holes, but require hardware not present in today's PC.) MORE ON http://www.ozzie.net/blog/stories/2002/08/22/nondiscretionaryControlsCantLiveWithemCant.html From profrv at nex.net.au Tue Aug 27 14:39:50 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 07:39:50 +1000 Subject: Police sued after computer seized.YEAH! Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020828073706.00a1fec0@mail.nex.net.au> http://www.kansas.com/mld/eagle/news/local/3943815.htm Wichita police sued by KC man The 27-year-old says officers had no right to seize his computer while investigating an Internet chat room involving sex with minors. BY TIM POTTER The Wichita Eagle The only thing Gary L. Moore Jr. is guilty of is having a sexual fantasy, which is no crime, his lawyer contends. Wichita lawyer Steve Joseph includes the argument in a lawsuit filed in federal court Monday against Wichita police Detective Jennifer Wright. The lawsuit contends Wright wrongly seized items from Moore, and it says authorities wrongly accused Moore of trying to have sex with a minor. The lawsuit seeks at least $100,000 in damages. State and federal charges against Moore have been dismissed, Joseph said. But Moore, a 27-year-old self-employed computer programmer from the Kansas City, Mo., area, has lost income and suffered "mental anguish" because of his arrest and the seizure of his computer, Joseph said. Law enforcement officers have some immunity from lawsuits but not in this case because the seizure did not occur in good faith, Joseph said. Spokesmen for Wichita police and the city legal department could not be reached for comment or declined to comment. Authorities arrested Moore in March as part of an undercover investigation involving the exploited and missing child unit. Joseph said Moore admits to using a computer chat room for adults that involved sexual role-playing. Moore began an online chat with an undercover detective claiming to be a 13-year-old girl, but Moore thought the person was an adult only pretending to be a girl, Joseph said. Using phone calls with a woman's voice and a photo that depicted a woman trying to look like a girl, detectives "lured" Moore to a Wichita hotel, Joseph said. Joseph said Wright had no probable cause when she seized computer equipment and other items from Moore's hotel room and car. Some of the seizure went beyond the scope of a search warrant, Joseph said.END. "I want to fly like an eagle..." From profrv at nex.net.au Tue Aug 27 15:19:02 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 08:19:02 +1000 Subject: Bomb American. Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020828081617.00a1fc50@mail.nex.net.au> "A drive from the district to Washington Dulles International Airport in Virginia will reveal a region that is light-years away from what it was 30 years ago. When Dulles opened in 1962, it was seen by many as nothing more than a white elephant-too far from Washington (26 miles) and too big to be of any real use. Dulles may still be a less con-venient alternative to the charming and ever-so-close Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport, but it is one of the fastest-growing airports in the country. It has become so crowded, in fact, that the passengers rushing through Eero Saarinen's soaring terminal overwhelm the once funky but now pokey mobile lounges. The once empty Dulles Toll Road, which stretches from the airport to the gargantuan Tysons Corner office and shopping complex on the Beltway, has seen changes galore as well. Lined with tech companies of all sorts, the toll road now serves as Fairfax County's high-tech main street. AOL (now AOL Time Warner), which grew up here, now occupies a large and sprawling headquarters in neighboring Loudoun County, Va., on the west side of Dulles. Other companies with their headquarters here include Nextel Communications, Deltek Systems, KPMG Consulting, MicroStrategy, TruSecure, Software AG, and Convera. Oracle, Cisco Systems, Sun Microsystems, Computer Associates International, and VeriSign have offices in Fairfax County. The city of McLean, Va.-now the residence of choice for republican bigwigs, as opposed to the democratic Bethesda, Md.-houses the massive and showy new headquarters for Gannett as well as a large broadband solution center run by KPMG Consulting." From a 4 page article on DC at... http://www.upside.com/texis/mvm/story?id=3d53ff231 Did you know the Govt employee's ratio has halved to 20%? Call off the Nuke's! From profrv at nex.net.au Tue Aug 27 15:45:10 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 08:45:10 +1000 Subject: Invade Malaysia Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020828061456.00a1b140@mail.nex.net.au> Its logged the shit out of it's own and it's neighbors forests,one minister wants a bounty on the last tigers in the place while another wants taxi drivers who may be lost,killed. It's an authoritarian muslim hellhole with all the mass torture,false imprisonment,deportations,etc that go with it and if all that wasn't enough...Malaysia stands by anti-sodomy law KUALA LUMPUR, June 13 - The Malaysian government firmly rejected a call by a U.S.-based human rights group to scrap a law against sodomy that underpins criminal charges against jailed former finance minister Anwar Ibrahim. "This is unthinkable," Deputy Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi was quoted in the Star newspaper as saying. "We have our traditions and values. Most importantly, all religions practised by Malaysians do not permit anal sex... From qyweb2 at sina.com Tue Aug 27 18:27:19 2002 From: qyweb2 at sina.com (=?GB2312?B?wfW72w==?=) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 09:27:19 +0800 Subject: =?GB2312?B?x+zUxs34wufB9bvbtPOxrNHd0tW62sS7o6E=?= Message-ID: <200208280127.g7S1ReR00818@waste.minder.net> 庆云网络刘慧大爆演艺黑幕！ 庆云网络刘慧 网址：http://www.qyweb.com.cn 东北嘉宾红 ：辽宁XX场子老板不给钱，还打人 QQ： 828...电话： 4220... 庆云网络独家报道：两女舞蹈演员在网上结识了几个当地男青年,要他们帮助索要回两千多元工资后,最后被这几个当地男青年用刀威逼说出银行密码,抢走钱...
河南有个叫燕*的女经济黑嘉宾的钱，本来在老板那里结了600，她先藏起来100或者200，然后过来找你再从剩下的钱里再抽经济费，各位演员千万别和她来往。QQ：2221...
小力：永州**舞吧千万不要去，一男一女老板都是同性恋，去了有危险，还不给钱
新加坡揭密 大家好：这段时间很多的经济人和一些总监在招演员去新加坡演出，这个问题也是我们演员们所关注的问题，我也想知道新加坡的情况到底如何，有朋友去了新加坡，据朋友电话反映的情况是这样的....
嘉兴**大酒店*总罪行举例：1小矮人在这里做五天结到百元，象这类的事经常发生，一男歌手作40天结到1700块。小矮人
Sienna ：湖南永州**千万不要进,不但工资没保障，而且还发假币，我就是受害者之一。演艺圈的各位同仁千万要当心， 以免上当受骗。
看风使舵 :人戴上手铐才知道自由的珍贵，人被宰割流血的时候才知道疼痛。在**酒城受骗的嘉宾朋友，其实两年前就有人在网上揭发了他的丑闻，假如你们三年前就是庆云网络的网友，你会同我一样也是幸运者。祝大家一路走好...
一个东北主持的心声:我很同意有位圈内人的话！湖南的主持并不是全都很好！不过，还是要向湖南的同仁致以敬意！毕竟，这种演艺形式还是湖南和浙江发扬光大的！...
*我《要》滚:我们乐队刚从福州回来那边的行情很不好有意去那边跑场的同行请留意
tan xing :宁波的宁海有个叫**的场子！老板是个混混。压钱后不给。至今欠演员两万多块。同行去此千万留心
东北主持: 吉林松原**可千万别去。那的老总叫**，象黑社会的小瘪三一样!拿演员根本不当人，和太原**的那几个是一丘之貉！惊人的相似！
豹小子*鹏克:河南濮阳有一个叫**的经理骗我们过去有不规矩结账，告诉你的朋友们河南濮阳的**大酒店不要去也不要听跳艳舞的**说好因为**是它的老婆。
蛋饼:那个叫罗韩军的一定要严惩他！！！！那不像话了！我都听过他的骗人的消息很多了！朋友们看见了一定要把他抓住！
┾痴┯恋╃华:邵东罗韩军绝对是个骗子!骗我到邵东,又骗我住他家,结果住旅馆.说安排我去演出,结果他自己的车票都要找我借!幸亏我当天住下一看部队就自己走了!望刘慧传播一下消息,让演员朋友千万不要上当!!!
阿源:山西长治市***的老总姓*的先叫你去，然后压价，搞2天后竟说你不行，工资不给。太多的歌手，嘉宾上当受骗，请告诉艺员，莫在上当。谢谢您！
刘慧: 现有几个演艺败类利用庆云网络数据库中的演员电话号码到出行骗，特别注意湖南邵东有个叫罗韩军的骗子，到处说我和他关系不错，把演员骗到邵东和怀化等地，请发现此人抓到当地公安局或打电话通知我我将严惩不怠。请大家在接到不熟悉的人打来电话联系演出的事，一定要问清，以免上当受骗。刘慧
●工作:山东淄博有个总监，经济人叫《**》他是个骗子不给演员钱，给演员排完场子，他先拿钱，就走没有了影子了，电话也不开，演绎界的朋友们，你们不要和她合作啊，他现在还欠我8000元呢.
我 是我: 太原**千万不要去啊 ！要是他心情不好或者生意不好就会给你个路费让你走，老板姓*还有个姓*的，经常无故的就打演员，演员不可以说什么“热情好色的总经理”之类的话，如果说了 就会一分钱不给还要挨顿打。
●工作:山东烟台有个大**的场子，有演员，但是演员去了，不给钱，演员刚开 时的时候给钱，到后来就不给了，说压钱，到后来就不给了，我希望演员不要去那里
刘慧你好；田毛在这里并通过您的网站，向全体圈里的朋友们致以节日的祝福。愿摇坠的烛光伴您走过难忘今宵，愿庄重的圣乐给您带来美好的人生，请接受来至北国的美好祝愿，愿上帝，我的主与你同在，，，阿门。
累猪 :重庆涪陵**大酒店唐朝夜总会去不得，老板超级刻薄，不讲信用，望同行们留意，小心上当。
你猜:前几天在网上看到，最近有的演员，男演员，把自己叫鸡的画面用数字机拍下来，上传到网上，而且把自己的活儿也拍下来，上到网上，我不知道这些人是怎么想的，在过去，我们做演员的人叫戏子，排在下九流，我们是不是还要把自己又做下去呢。
西北（阿越）:这段时间很多的经济人和一些总监在招演员去新加坡演出，这个问题也是我们演员们所关注的问题，我也想知道新加坡的情况到底如何，有朋友去了新加坡，倨朋友电话反映的情况是这样的。去了新加坡根本就没有钱赚，每月要交30%的工资，每三个月要交一次出境费（几万元不等），有朋友说他每月要把所有的工资交出去还不够自己还要贴一千多才够，每天白天要演出晚上也要演出，不管演多少场就给工资没有什么辛苦费的，不会给多加一分钱.........
啊宁 :请各位同行的人注意湖北舞蹈对的周*啊 他是小偷,他曾经在湖南岳阳偷过一个主持的手机 还偷了舞蹈队的好多钱 连歌手的也被他偷了1000快钱~！如果你们知道周涛这个黑心鬼 请你们奏他一顿 好好的教训他!....
不愿意说:福建石狮的宝*是个不结工资的场子。各位圈子里的朋友不要上当！真心话！
小哲:各位娱乐界的朋友大家好！在下现在奉劝一句：在广西玉林有个夜总会叫做‘**’！大家千万不要到那里去演出！场子很烂，老板又苛刻！之前说好的一切到走的时候....老板整个就不出现，一切事情都要他的手下做！最后就不结帐！千万不要去那里演！---------广西玉林‘**夜总会’！他们欠了好多演员的血汗钱！！！！！！
我是一名普通的演员，但是我有一个最大的优点，就是好学，做主持三年多了，一点一滴都是我无师自通，这一切也归功于艺校六年的基本功，现在，我很想找一名能帮助我提高的老师，特别是长沙地区的，因为我的目标就是打进长沙的娱乐圈，进军全国。我的电话号码是：01380743...
王倩:福建省南安市**夜总会的老板很小气，演艺人员的押金要扣500元，走的时候不会退押金，真黑。在福建的朋友要特别注意。那里生意不怎么样，客人没有档次。是个低级的场所。不要受骗。
田野: ***，河南人，在西安与河南之间流窜，以经纪人的身份诈骗钱财，相信很多人已经受骗上当，此人168MM，目光飘忽闪烁，衣衫萎靡，讲话夸张！请同行密切注意此人行踪，现悬赏人民币1元捉拿归案！提供此人信息着赏火锅一顿！西安市娱乐演出办公室 西安行业打假办公室西安市公安局经济诈骗科一队西安演员打黑基金会
圈内人:现在很多演员在介绍自己时总喜欢加上一句：湖南人！难道湖南人就比别人牛逼吗？虽然湖南有一些出色的艺员，但是烂演员也非常多！好演员都在湖南境内不会出来，希望用人单位不要听说是湖南人就优先考虑以免上当！
可可:山西太原的**城和**院是个烂地方总是扣钱！还扣很多，尤其是那里的**吸血吸的狠啊！有机会帮我给他一闷棍！大家可千万别上当啊！太恶毒了！
xy: 大家注意 **安徽人 主持 现在暂为上海南汇**大酒店演绎听老板 此人为人极差 乱扣钱 爱欠钱 本人身受其害
我的朋友叫阿和买提，新疆人，专业贝司，善于键盘和吉他，但是他不识汉字，我也与他失去联系有一段时间，打他家里电话他家里人听不懂汉语，希望有心人士看见此留言或见到他人麻烦通知一声，请他与我联系。我现在的电话是13956187202。或者认识他哥哥帕尔哈提的也可以，他是主持！谢谢！见面为感！！！
无名: 河北省秦皇岛市有一个场子叫****，大家千万不能去 ，总监叫**，是个胖子，喜欢压演员的价，扣演员的小 费！还爱贪小便宜！跟他打交道的人，后果自负！
如来: 武汉“****”大家不要去，钱结不到。老板叫**，总监叫***，***背着老板搞钱，同时又与老板合伙骗演员，每个演员都有几场钱结不到。
高峰:大家好。大家知道银川有个《****》吗？大家千万不要去！老总姓*，老板娘姓*扣演员的工资。他们的电话是：1330951....139095...09518....请各位兄弟姐妹千万不要上当啊！如果他们大电话给你们你们要骂一骂他们！！！！！！
王:山东济南有个经济人叫**，是个很黑的经济，派场子派300他要拿100到150很黑，各位家宾要小心不要
阿伟哥:慧哥你好：今天看到啸天的事情让我深有感触，我们都是同行他的遭遇让人同情，我在这呼吁所有的演艺界的同行对那些黑心的经济和老板给予最沉重的打击
安俊:阿海是个不错的经济......对演员很义气.....
芊芊:黑呀!成都经纪人有个叫**的是个笑面虎，其实黑的很，演出回来就问你要钱，不管你的感受，多远的场子多烂的场子都排只管转钱，请嘉宾们来到成都不要和他做,黑嘿嘿
龙飘儿:宁夏******很黑,很多好嘉宾去了都一场下课.老板甩200元钱让走人.文祥,金锋,阿图,严冬等等都被这样下课了。希望广大嘉宾不要去那个场子.老板很色,只要是女演员都难逃魔掌.小心哦。朋友。
我是嘉宾搞笑萝卜头，荆洲有个经济人叫**的把我从湖南骗过来演出，结果一分钱也没给我，害得我连路费也没了，我告诫朋友们以后千万不要被他给骗了，他这个骗子以荆洲天王协会和潜江凤凰做总监的名义骗人！！
好人: **波和*军是大骗子！！他们没有道德，他们找了别人演出却不给他们经济费，他们是骗子，切记切记！！！！我是为大家好！！！
阿宝: 我和他合作过，他是个很直爽的人，演出结帐时很爽快，你们可以和他很开心的合作！！！他是个好经济人，有经济人的道德！！！！！
大家好、/我叫单良/是个对音乐痴迷的人，喜欢音乐的人都可以和我交朋友，我唱了大概十年的歌，一直还没有碰到一个对音乐[特别特别]执着的人，希望能在这里碰上[他]，我现在弄了个音乐工作室，做一些原创音乐，什么风格都有，如有须要的话给我打电话137036...

庆云网络刘慧 网址：http://www.qyweb.com.cn From profrv at nex.net.au Tue Aug 27 17:00:10 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 10:00:10 +1000 Subject: Denver window of spy file opportunity. Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020828095908.00a1a470@mail.nex.net.au> Release of intelligence files on activists go public Sept 3rd With over 3200 individuals and 200 organizations in the Denver P.D.'s misnamed, "intelligence database", it's a sure bet that if you think you're on the list then.... Procedures for picking up your spy files during a 60 day window have been released. After that the files will be destroyed and new files will be started under new guidelines. The new three-judge panel recommendations came from dubious sources such as the Law Enforcement Intelligence Unit (LEIU). If you are an individual and/or group representative you need to fill out this Request for Intelligence File form. If you are trying to obtain a group file you need to fill out and have notarized an additional Affidavit of Representation form. Have these forms ready to go when the Spy Files Action takes place on Tuesday September 3rd at 5:30 pm. http://rockymountain.indymedia.org/archive/features/2002/08/2002-08.html#4766 From profrv at nex.net.au Tue Aug 27 17:16:34 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 10:16:34 +1000 Subject: Jailed for chalking in Kalifornia and "rampant, reckless encryption." Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020828100309.00a18470@mail.nex.net.au> http://santacruz.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=1517&group=webcast POLICE JAIL HOMELESS ACTIVIST FOR "VANDALISM" CHALKING IN NEW ESCALATION OF WAR ON POOR DOWNTOWN; ERASABLE CHALK USER FINDS JAIL CONDITIONS GRIM AND ABUSIVE Security Experts Concur Most of You Have Nothing Worth Encrypting Anyway San Jose, Calif. — In an unusual worldwide appeal, the International Brotherhood of Computer Hackers today asked particularly boring people to please stop encrypting their emails. Cracking messages like this are a waste of valuable hacker time, say hackers. According to IBCH President Björn Haxor, hackers spend thousands of hours intercepting and cracking open encrypted emails — believing it to be "the good stuff" — only to find most contain little more than "Two priests walk into a bar," or "Hi Bob, here's my new email address." "Maybe you think hacking coded messages is simple, but it's not — well, except for the Microsoft Outlook ones," said Haxor. "The rest of it is a pain in the backdoor. So here's a tip: if you encrypt just because you want to keep your personal information 'secret,' but all you're encrypting is blather about your stupid promotion or a recipe for fruit salad, guess what? Your secret's already out. You're dull." "Please, keep it to yourself and stop wasting our time," he added. Instead, Haxor said, people should only encrypt if they are going to send information such as passwords, credit card numbers, blueprints for an unreleased product, or confidential sales figures. Barring that, he advised, "at least give us something revealing, like you slept with your boss's wife, or his Airedale." In fact, some frustrated hackers have begun to fight back against what they call "rampant, reckless encryption." "I had one guy at Oracle who encrypted everything, and 80 percent of his emails were gripes about his department head," said IBCH member BlackDogg77. "I got so fed up, I bounced all the emails back to the guy's boss and got him fired. I mean, why should I put up with that shit?" "Or Al Gore," Haxor added. "The other day I'm monitoring some government servers, and I see all these encrypted emails from Gore. Hey Al, news alert: You're Al Gore. No one cares anymore. Give it up." Surprisingly, computer security experts agree. "I get this all the time: 'Should I encrypt? I don't want anyone to steal my identity,'" said LockUpOnline President Bing D'aahl. "The textbook answer has been 'Yes,' but now we are advising people to first ask themselves, 'Do I have an identity that anyone would really want to steal?'" If you answer truthfully, D'aahl said, chances are you'll forego the digital ID and save everyone a lot of trouble. "Remember, the Internet wasn't built just for you," Haxor added. From morlockelloi at yahoo.com Wed Aug 28 10:24:29 2002 From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 10:24:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Look, mommy, I'm a SECURITY EXPERT ! Message-ID: <20020828172429.70024.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com> http://www.ITsecurity.com/ The Encyclopedia of Computer Security (a complete one-source location for information security news, products, whitepapers, events, definitions and much more) requires the use of JavaScript for navigation and display purposes. Please switch JavaScript on in your Browser and try again. This site has been optimised for Internet Explorer 5+. ===== end (of original message) Y-a*h*o-o (yes, they scan for this) spam follows: Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com From sunder at sunder.net Wed Aug 28 07:47:47 2002 From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 10:47:47 -0400 (edt) Subject: RIAA: Feeling Burn of Ripped CDs Message-ID: http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,54773,00.html claims: "Shipments of CDs dropped 7 percent in the first six months of this year, a fact attributed to an increase in music downloads through file-trading services, according to a report issued Monday by the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA). " Hmmm, that's interesting, gee, we were having a really great economy the first six months of this year. What, with the aftermath of the terrorist attacks, and the bursting of the dot com bubble, the fall of so many telecoms, and all the thousands upon thousands of layoffs.. I really can't see why people wouldn't be buying CD's in droves with all their disposable income... Gee, it must be the mp3 pirates, yeah, that's the ticket... yeah, it's that napster thing that did it... yeah, that's why the buttstreet boys and the other cocksucking boy and girl bands have had little cd sales, it's not because their music is overpromoted shit that's far less useful than the billions of giveaway AOL coaster cd's, who get less than a penny per sold album anyway and have such great incentive to put-out (tee hee) more of the same... No! It's because they're so popular that every gnutella poppin' teenage fiend who gets thousands of dollars a day in allowance decided to priate their precious unique, creative, and wonderful songs which never sound anything like, and deprive the poor RIAA executives! Oh, poor RIAA, their executives won't be able to support their cocaine habbits anymore, waaa, they'll have to go back to smoking ganja again, Oh, poor, poor bastards, no more personal jets and hookers^H^H^H^H^H^H^H personal massage therapists. Oh, the poor starving RIAA executives! My heart just bleeds for their plight! We must act now to stop the pirates. I know, I know, I'll call my congressman right now, and get all my friends to do the same! We must end this carnage right now! ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :NSA got $20Bil/year |Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :and didn't stop 9-11|share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:Instead of rewarding|monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :their failures, we |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :should get refunds! |site, and you must change them very often. --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ From ericm at lne.com Wed Aug 28 11:03:23 2002 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 11:03:23 -0700 Subject: right MTA for crypto support In-Reply-To: <200208280326.PAA51036@ruru.cs.auckland.ac.nz>; from pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz on Wed, Aug 28, 2002 at 03:26:47PM +1200 References: <200208280326.PAA51036@ruru.cs.auckland.ac.nz> Message-ID: <20020828110323.A12240@slack.lne.com> On Wed, Aug 28, 2002 at 03:26:47PM +1200, Peter Gutmann wrote: > Eugen Leitl writes: (actually, I wrote:) > >It's relatively easy to turn on TLS in sendmail. It's not secure against > >active attackers that can modify the data in the TCP stream but it's better > >than nothing. > > Actually it's better than any other mail security out there. See the slides > for my talk at Usenix Security > (http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/usenix02_slides.pdf) for more > details (the StartTLS stuff is about halfway through). It depends on how you define "better". STARTTLS is defeated by Norton AV (silently!) and probably other programs... if not now, then soon. Mail is rarely stolen when in transit, it's much easier to steal it from the destination spool, and STARTTLS does nothing to protect stored mail. The authentication option is only used to authenticate roaming SMTP clients, and probably not often even then since distributing client certificates is hard and too many IT folks still think encrypted == secure. If you define "better" as "more secure", or even "secure against most classes of attackers", it's not better, it's a waste of CPU time. But if you define "better" as "secure against passive eavesdroppers" or as "increases the use of crypto", then it's better. What's needed is something that IS better for both definitions and is as easy to set up as STARTTLS... same thing that's been needed for the last 10 years. Eric From green at abdyesilkart.com Wed Aug 28 04:55:46 2002 From: green at abdyesilkart.com (Green Card) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 14:55:46 +0300 Subject: Sayn cypherpunks , Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2300 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz Tue Aug 27 20:26:47 2002 From: pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 15:26:47 +1200 (NZST) Subject: right MTA for crypto support Message-ID: <200208280326.PAA51036@ruru.cs.auckland.ac.nz> Eugen Leitl writes: >It's relatively easy to turn on TLS in sendmail. It's not secure against >active attackers that can modify the data in the TCP stream but it's better >than nothing. Actually it's better than any other mail security out there. See the slides for my talk at Usenix Security (http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/usenix02_slides.pdf) for more details (the StartTLS stuff is about halfway through). Peter. From schear at lvcm.com Wed Aug 28 19:38:13 2002 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 19:38:13 -0700 Subject: Fwd: EFFector 15.26: EFF Share-In 2002, EFF Panels at DragonCon Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020828193657.04b1d058@pop3.lvcm.com> >* Electronic Frontier Foundation Holds Second Annual Share-In > >John Perry Barlow, Mountain Girl Garcia Host Free Music Fest > >San Francisco - Join the Electronic Frontier Foundation and five Bay >Area bands for an afternoon of live music and outdoor fun at EFF's >second annual Share In. The festival will be held in Golden Gate >Park's Music Concourse Bandshell on Saturday, September 14th from noon >- 5pm. The celebration of independent music will be hosted by Grateful >Dead lyricist and EFF co-founder John Perry Barlow, and former wife of >the late great Jerry Garcia, Mountain Girl Garcia. Bummer, its the same day as the 10th Anniversary Bay Area CP meeting. steve From eugen at leitl.org Wed Aug 28 13:09:08 2002 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 22:09:08 +0200 (CEST) Subject: RIAA: Feeling Burn of Ripped CDs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Aug 2002, Sunder wrote: > http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,54773,00.html > > claims: > > "Shipments of CDs dropped 7 percent in the first six months of this year, > a fact attributed to an increase in music downloads through file-trading > services, according to a report issued Monday by the Recording Industry > Association of America (RIAA). " They had to produce a lie to counter Forrester Research and Jupiter Media Metrix' study (caveat, engage dekrauting device of choice before viewing): http://www.heise.de/newsticker/data/jk-14.08.02-005/ http://www.heise.de/newsticker/data/anw-05.05.02-003/ From nobody at dizum.com Wed Aug 28 14:00:07 2002 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 23:00:07 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Cryptographic privacy protection in TCPA Message-ID: <393cc95cbb00840ae87b2d7f13da5093@dizum.com> Carl Ellison suggested an alternate way that TCPA could work to allow for revoking virtualized TPMs without the privacy problems associated with the present systems, and the technical problems of the elaborate cryptographic methods. Consider first the simplest possible method, which is just to put a single signature key in each TPM and allow the TPM to use that to sign its messages on the net. This is reliable and allows TPM keys to be revoked, but it obviously offers no privacy. Every usage of a TPM key can be correlated as coming from a single system. TCPA fixed this by adding a trusted third party, the "Identity CA" who would be the only one to see the TPM key. But Carl offers a different solution. Instead of burning only one key into the TPM, burn several. Maybe even a hundred. And let these keys be shared with other TPMs. Each TPM has many keys, and each key has copies in many TPMs. Now let the TPMs use their various keys to identify themselves in transactions on the net. Because each key belongs to many different TPMs, and the set of TPMs varies for each key, this protects privacy. Any given usage of a key can be narrowed down only to a large set of TPMs that possess that key. If a key is misused, i.e. "scraped" out of the TPM and used to create a virtualized, rule-breaking software TPM, it can be revoked. This means that all the TPMs that share that one key lose the use of that key. But it doesn't matter much, because they each have many more they can use. Since it is expected that only a small percentage of TPMs will ever need their keys revoked, most TPMs should always have plenty of keys to use. One problem is that a virtualized TPM which loses one of its keys will still have others that it can use. Eventually those keys will also be recognized as being mis-used and be revoked as well. But it may take quite a while before all the keys on its list are exhausted. To fix this, Carl suggests that the TPM manufacturer keep a list of all the public keys that are in each TPM. Then when a particular TPM has some substantial fraction of its keys revoked, that would be a sign that the TPM itself had been virtualized and all the rest of the keys could be immediately revoked. The precise threshold for this would depend on the details of the system, the number of keys per TPM, the number of TPMs that share a key, the percentage of revoked keys, etc. But it should not be necessary to allow each TPM to go through its entire repertoire of keys, one at a time, before a virtualized TPM can be removed from the system. Carl indicated that he suggested this alternative early in the TCPA planning process, but it was not accepted. It does seem that while the system has advantages, in some ways it shares the problems of the alternatives. It provides privacy, but not complete privacy, not as much as the cryptographic schemes. And it provides security to the TPM issuers, but not complete security, not as much as the Privacy CA method. In this way it can be seen as a compromise. Often, compromise solutions are perceived more in terms of their disadvantages than their benefits. --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From NAVMSE-IRASERVER at Illinoisrestaurants.org Wed Aug 28 21:48:39 2002 From: NAVMSE-IRASERVER at Illinoisrestaurants.org (NAV for Microsoft Exchange-IRASERVER) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 23:48:39 -0500 Subject: Norton AntiVirus detected and quarantined a virus in a message yo u sent. Message-ID: Recipient of the infected attachment: Moira O'Brien\Inbox Subject of the message: Rights reserved. One or more attachments were quarantined. Attachment dirsearch[1].bat was Quarantined for the following reasons: Virus UNAUTHORIZED FILE was found. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 1785 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cmobm at hotmail.com Thu Aug 29 10:06:23 2002 From: cmobm at hotmail.com (cmobm at hotmail.com) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 01:06:23 -1600 Subject: PROTECT YOUR COMPUTER AND YOUR VALUABLE INFORMATION! PRSEZUNYJ Message-ID: <0000611e13f3$00001fa8$00006cd9@azwebhub.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 5031 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jeffers at brick.net Thu Aug 29 13:52:45 2002 From: jeffers at brick.net (Gary Jeffers) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 15:52:45 -0500 Subject: The Liberty Dollar Message-ID: <000701c24f9e$082d2a80$d0984ad1@garyjeff> My fellow Cypherpunks, The Liberty Dollar My fellow Cypherpunks, I think I may have some really great news here, but you all can check it out to be sure. I found an alternative money on the Internet. It is called the Liberty Dollar. The Internet site is: http://www.norfed.org NORFED is The National Organization for the Repeal of the Federal Reserve Act and the Internal Revenue Code. The money is backed by silver and gold and can be redeemed widely in America. As many of you know, the $US is a corrupt, proprietary, debt issued, fait, fractional reserved,illegal, unconstituional, U. S. State enforced monopoly currency. As corrupt as it is I don't know why it hasn't already collasped and dragged us down with it! If the Liberty Dollar is honest and robust, then it may be the vehical to beat the elite bankers tyranny and give us an honest wealth produced money. Yours Truly, Gary Jeffers BEAT STATE !!!!  From schear at lvcm.com Thu Aug 29 16:46:39 2002 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 16:46:39 -0700 Subject: The Liberty Dollar In-Reply-To: <000701c24f9e$082d2a80$d0984ad1@garyjeff> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020829164519.051ce180@pop3.lvcm.com> At 03:52 PM 8/29/2002 -0500, Gary Jeffers wrote: > The money is backed by silver and gold and can be redeemed widely >in America. True but only fractionally (i.e., the precious metal content is only a fraction of the face value). steve From profrv at nex.net.au Thu Aug 29 00:40:06 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 17:40:06 +1000 Subject: Jim Bell quoting anarchist set for trial on S-11 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020829162511.00a19720@mail.nex.net.au> Dear Dec Please leave out my e-mail TIA.(and thanks for helping me clean my clock.) Following on from previous Politech posts at... http://www.politechbot.com/cgi-bin/politech.cgi?name=proffr An important case for free speech online is due soon in Melb.au.Professor rat,(me),an entertainment journalist with the Indymedia group is charged with 2 counts of ,'threat's to kill,' and two counts of using a device to menace. It's possible to get 20 years for these offences,(a multiple rapist was sentenced to 45 years for 3 rape offences recently here.) Discovery has revealed 2 main pieces of evidence supposedly copies from a 'ghost' copy of the entire seized hard drive.One looks like an e-mail that's time stamped with the same date as the offending post and was sent to 'self',the time difference is at least an hour.Someone apparently copied and sent back to self the post within a couple of hours.This someone is assumed to be me by the police complainant. The other piece is supposedly a copy off the main copy that is a screen shot of the second offending post as seen at Indymedia.Its not conventually time stamped at all. In au legal aid is very hard to obtain and lawyers actually held a street march recently in Melbourne, to call for more funding.I was approved in January, of aid to regain my laptop,this was unsuccessful. The police have managed to lie to me,steal from me,lock me up in cells since condemned unfit for humans,kept my depreciating computer over a year,colluded with my mental health team to increase my medication 3 or 4 times,have me tested with needles in another town at some expense to me.When that 'treatment' was refused I was nearly certified for a weekend for no reason. US interest has been exposed by federal police documents obtained under the FOI act.Documents exhibit a PROMIS # no.Complaints to the professional standards department of the AFP are underway as are ones to the Health commission.My case worker said that extradition to the US was mentioned as a possibility.(Cinci or the pacifier letters?) Anyone who doubts APster ,simply as a TACTIC is missing the boat.Declan is correct to describe the AP essay as a long winded screed,I am personally mainly interested in the 'soft drilling' part of it, (and the LEOs extraordinary response to it.) I was diagnosed with simple schizophrenia in the early eighties.I am prescribed Olanzapine.(Zoloft) The post described as one of my typical rants is in fact a selected repost from the C/punks list,circa 1996.I don't apologize for posting as much as possible before being gagged and/or imprisoned like JB and CJ. Plainly there is insufficient evidence to bring State charges,a sen.Conts.Martin Holland is on record for stating in court that,"anyone can download there,"(at Indy.) The complainant,sen.Conts nic Conte,came at me with a knife at the police station and sliced my drawstring off my jogging pants.8 months after surfing Indy and downloading 'evidence' to hard copy he claims to,"know nothing about computers." The computer squad officer took the 'threats' so seriously that the next day after my laptop was seized he started off on another case.(a pedophile in a Govt office) Conte claims to be afraid of threats of 'molotovs'.About a month ago police in Italy admitted to planting actual molotovs to justify an extremely violent raid on an Indymedia location. Trial is adversarial in au and sept's hearing is a "contest mention."before a Magistrate.I have a list of questions yet have not met my lawyer yet,his name is Jarrod Williams and he has been referred to me by Cameron Ford at Kyneton's firm,Palmer,Stevens and Rennick.Win lose or draw,I look forward to this case finally being heard,snippets of info are available as they come to hand at C/punks and I will post a detailed impression of the trial there and on Melbourne Indymedia. Re The improper psychiatric interference under the guise of 'investigation.' I just wrote this to an aussie anarchist... Subject: 'Russian" psychiatry in au An country Vic an anarchist has obtained under FOI,evidence that Federal police and a Mental Health team plotted to increase his medication 3 or 4 times and stick needles in him to monitor drugs.The patient would have had to pay to get to his blood tests.(in another town.) This collusion occurred earlier this year and the evidence for the proposed actions was secret.Several lines are blacked out though a reference to US input remains as does a PROMIS no on a couple of the documents.When the anarchist rang to complain to the 'professional standards' Dept of the Federal Police he was asked for his PROMIS hash no.The use of PROMIS in several countries is suspected as a tool of repression and murder.(Guatamala,occupied Palestine and the old South Africa.It is a software tracking method originally stolen from a small Co called INSLAW by the justice Dept of the US Govt. In Russia dissidents had a special diagnosis called 'sluggish schizophrenia.There was a story in last weekends australian about instituting guidelines for the chaining of mental patients to their beds in Adelaide Hospital. Privacy legislation is meant to protect patients records so a complaint has been made to the Health Commission of Vic.When a response is forthcoming further complaints may ensue ,to the professional bodies of those State criminals, involved in this sordid and disquieting episode. yrs etc. Patient X From eugen at leitl.org Thu Aug 29 08:42:09 2002 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 17:42:09 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [mnet-devel] ONE_HOP_PRIVACY (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 01:39:05 -0300 From: Zooko To: mnet-devel at lists.sourceforge.net Subject: [mnet-devel] ONE_HOP_PRIVACY A discussion on IRC [1] led me to implement this simple hack. It makes it so that all outgoing messages that can be sent through your preferred relayer are sent through your preferred relayer. (If you turn on ONE_HOP_PRIVACY in your broker.conf file.) If you also turn on SERVE_USING_RELAY under the YESNO section in your broker.conf, then the only peers who will learn your actual IP address will be the relay servers that you use and the meta trackers (with whom you must talk in order to get the IP addresses of the relay servers, as well as to get the public keys of the various peers). Needless (?) to say, this is not "strong" anonymity, as envisioned by David Chaum, capable of hiding your traffic against dedicated NSA spooks. It is, however, comparable to the kind of anonymity offered by networks such as Freenet. Regards, Zooko [1] server: irc.openprojects.net, channel #mnet --- common/MojoTransaction.py 28 Jul 2002 20:46:13 -0000 1.18 +++ common/MojoTransaction.py 29 Aug 2002 04:12:55 -0000 @@ -1292,7 +1292,29 @@ # pick the most preferred connection strategy and use it newcs = reduce(CommStrat.choose_best_strategy, commstrat_list) del commstrat_list - self._ch.use_comm_strategy(counterparty_id, newcs, orig_cs=counterparty_info['connection strategies'][0]) + self._ch.use_comm_strategy(counterparty_id, newcs) + + # XXX begin code for the OneHopPrivacy hack + if confman.is_true_bool('ONE_HOP_PRIVACY'): + thisisMT = false + for meta_tracker_id, meta_tracker_infodict in MetaTrackerLib.find_meta_trackers(self): + if idlib.equal(meta_tracker_id, counterparty_id): + thisisMT = true + break + # copy one of these strategies and change its llstrat to be "relay through our preferred RS". + # Unless of course this *is* our preferred RS. And unless of course we don't *have* a preferred RS. + preferredrsId = self._listenermanager._relayl._get_favorite() + if (not preferredrsId) and (not thisisMT): + debugprint("WARNING: can't send message to %s because we currently have no preferred relay server and we are in OneHopPrivacy mode.\n", args=(counterparty_id,), v=0, vs="metatracking") + fast_fail_handler(failure_reason="no preferred relay server while in OneHopPrivacy mode") + return + + if (not thisisMT) and (not idlib.equal(counterparty_id, preferredrsId)): + onehopprivstrat = CommStrat.Crypto(newcs._pubkey, CommStrat.Relay(preferredrsId, counterparty_id, self), newcs._broker_id) + self._ch.forget_comm_strategy(counterparty_id) # *force* us to forget the old one. Else someone could make a TCP connection to us, and then we would start sending him messages over it. Oh waitasec -- he can already verify that we are who he suspects us to be by making a TCP connection and sending us a message encrypted with our public key. Oh well. + self._ch.use_comm_strategy(counterparty_id, inehopprivstrat) + # XXX end code for the OneHopPrivacy hack + try: # debugprintsend(diagstr="sending directly [a] ...", v=5, vs="conversation") self._ch.send_msg(counterparty_id, msg, mojooffer, hint=hint, fast_fail_handler=fast_fail_handler, timeout=timeout) ------------------------------------------------------- This sf.net email is sponsored by: Jabber - The world's fastest growing real-time communications platform! Don't just IM. Build it in! http://www.jabber.com/osdn/xim _______________________________________________ mnet-devel mailing list mnet-devel at lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mnet-devel From profrv at nex.net.au Thu Aug 29 00:52:29 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 17:52:29 +1000 Subject: rebuttal in ongoing APster stoush Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020829175101.00a1b8b0@mail.nex.net.au> http://www.anti-state.com/murphy/murphy18.html "We have always lived in slums and holes in the wall. We will know how to accommodate ourselves for a time. For you must not forget, we can also build. It is we who built those palaces and cities here in Spain and America and everywhere. We, the workers, can build others to take their place. And better ones. We are not in the least afraid of ruins. WE are going to inherit the earth. There is not the slightest doubt about that. The bourgeoisie might blast and ruin its own world before it leaves the stage of history. We carry a new world, here in our hearts. That world is growing this minute." Buenaventura Durruti: From marketing at cd-uk.net Thu Aug 29 09:54:47 2002 From: marketing at cd-uk.net (Computer Developments UK) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 17:54:47 +0100 Subject: MS Office 2k Pro - Special Price - Our Stock is getting low! Message-ID: This is your FINAL CHANCE to buy Microsoft Office 2000 Professional, we have very few copies of this left in stock, so please call us on 01993 849200 as soon as possible to get your copy. CD plus License only £175 while stocks last. Call us now on 01993 849200, offer ends 30th August. Regards The Sales Team Computer Developments UK All Offers are made subject to availability. Prices quoted are exclusive of VAT. All trademarks acknowledged. All sales subject to CD-UK's Terms and Conditions. To be removed from our email list please reply with remove as the subject and also stating email address if different from the one you are using, thank you. Computer Developments UK, Waterside Court, Witan Way, Witney, Oxfordshire, OX28 6FE Telephone: 01993 849200 Fax: 0870 458 2385 Email:mailto:sales at cd-uk.net From profrv at nex.net.au Thu Aug 29 01:41:22 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 18:41:22 +1000 Subject: 2 Billion $ worth of Victorian police corruption. Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020829183812.009efeb0@mail.nex.net.au> http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,4990987%255E2862,00.html 2b drug case shock By ELISSA HUNT, Magistrates' Court reporter 29aug02 CHARGES against a man accused of a $2 billion drug conspiracy have been dropped. And the case against the man's brother, accused drug baron Antonios Mokbel, was yesterday put off indefinitely because of a drug squad corruption probe. Prosecutors told a court they did not know when the investigation by police ethical standards officers would finish -- or how it might affect the case. The admission paves the way for millionaire businessman Mr Mokbel to make another bid for release on bail. He is facing 18 state charges over an alleged drug syndicate worth $2 billion, and a Commonwealth case relating to cocaine importation. On August 9, Supreme Court Justice Murray Kellam refused him bail on the grounds that he posed a risk of fleeing, committing more offences, interfering with witnesses or obstructing the course of justice. But the judge raised concerns about the delay in the preliminary hearings of the two cases, which were planned for October 16 and November 25. He said the public would not tolerate the indefinite detention of suspects. Justice Kellam granted Mr Mokbel permission to apply again if the Commonwealth prosecution was unable to go ahead on the scheduled date. Yesterday the Melbourne Magistrates' Court was told neither the Commonwealth nor state cases could go ahead because of the corruption probe. Mr Mokbel, 37, was arrested on August 24 last year in Victoria's biggest drug sting. His brother, Milad Mokbel, 34, of Brunswick, was arrested in November and charged with possessing, trafficking and conspiring to traffic ephedrine. Milad Mokbel's bail application at Melbourne Magistrates' Court was told there was evidence linking him to a 550kg shipment of ephedrine. It was alleged that his fingerprints had been found on a shipping document detailing the movements of the container of ephedrine, and he had been mentioned in recorded conversations between co-accused. Milad Mokbel was released on bail last November with a $100,000 surety. Yesterday the three drugs charges against him were withdrawn during an administrative hearing before magistrate Phillip Goldberg. A spokesman for the state Director of Public Prosecutions last night said the ESD investigation was not related to the charges being withdrawn. The case against Milad Mokbel could not proceed because there was insufficient evidence, he said. From mmotyka at lsil.com Thu Aug 29 17:55:45 2002 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 18:55:45 -0600 Subject: The Liberty Dollar Message-ID: <3D6EC291.4F0662DF@lsil.com> Steve Schear wrote : >At 03:52 PM 8/29/2002 -0500, Gary Jeffers wrote: >> The money is backed by silver and gold and can be redeemed widely >>in America. > >True but only fractionally (i.e., the precious metal content is only a >fraction of the face value). > >steve > Hi Steve, Did you try to follow their site? I love the bit on the website about "make 40% blah blah blah" by buying these colorful bad boys in volume at $6 each. The indexing of these things to Ag is truly fucked ( http://63.126.1.222/AgOver10.asp ). Apparently a $10 Liberty Dollar is redeemable for 1oz of Ag which is today about $4.50. If silver goes over $10 then they'll reset things to a $20 base. Er..what? I guess I didn't study enough mathematics. How the fuck are you going to make 40%? Especially in light of the sorry fact that if you're dumb enough to buy these little buggers it's going to be tougher'n'hell to find someone even more dumb to sell them to at a profit. Note quite as cute as e-golb.com. Speaking of which I never found out if it was a private enterprise or a slinking leo. The fucking ISP up in Davis never returned my calls. Mike From mmotyka at lsil.com Thu Aug 29 17:55:45 2002 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 18:55:45 -0600 Subject: The Liberty Dollar Message-ID: Michael Motyka wrote: >Hi Steve, >Did you try to follow their site? >I love the bit on the website about "make 40% blah blah blah" by buying >these colorful bad boys in volume at $6 each. >The indexing of these things to Ag is truly fucked ( >http://63.126.1.222/AgOver10.asp ). Apparently a $10 Liberty Dollar is >redeemable for 1oz of Ag which is today about $4.50. If silver goes over >$10 then they'll reset things to a $20 base. Er..what? I guess I didn't >study enough mathematics. The value of the Liberty Dollars is determined by both their denominations and by their "bases". For instance, a $10 LIberty bill with a "$10 base" also printed on it could be redeemed for 1 oz. of silver. A $10 Liberty bill with with a "$20 base" printed on it could be redeemed for 1/2 oz. of silver. A $20 Liberty bill with a "$20 base" printed on it could be redeemed for 1 oz. of silver. Now, if you bought a $10 Liberty bill with "base 10" on it and NORFED then started using a $20 base - no problem - your $10 Liberty bill could still be redeemed for the 1 oz. of silver that you were entitled to at the time you bought the bill. You are not left "holding the bag". Michael Motyka wrote: >How the fuck are you going to make 40%? Especially in light of the sorry >fact that if you're dumb enough to buy these little buggers it's going >to be tougher'n'hell to find someone even more dumb to sell them to at a >profit. As explained in the NORFED text below, if you are a redemption center, then you can get a price break by buying in volume. This increases your profit. As far as your customers who buy Liberty Dollars from you - officially you charge a set premium on these dollars to customers, but I bet you don't have to. I think that you would be allowed to give a price break to customers. This would cut your profits but that might not bother you too much and maybe you are an ideologue. This would also allow the Liberty Dollar "end buyers" to take a minimum loss. If done well, all the Liberty Dollar buyers would take, at most, a small hit on the store of value function. Also, there are other values of honest, non-fiat money. For instance, the Liberty Dollar is inflation RESISTANT. That would protect us in inflationary times. We are so used to inflation that we think it goes on indefintely. However, it looks to me like we are headed for a deflationary depression. I think that in that case the Liberty Dollar would almost certainly lose value against the $US, but I think it would give good general protection against deflation too. The TRANSACTION function: I think this is where much of its potential lies and this needs a lot of experimenting. GENERATION: The Liberty Dollar is partially backed by silver and, therefore, is NOT DEBT CREATED! This is a very major value! Debt generated money dooms us! Michael Motyka wrote: >Note quite as cute as e-golb.com. Speaking of which I never found out if >it was a private enterprise or a slinking leo. The fucking ISP up in >Davis never returned my calls. >Mike Here are the financial incentives for becoming a redemption center: ------------------------------------------------- START text from NORFED -------------------------------------------------------------------- What is a Redemption Center? A Redemption Center (RC) is any individual, business or organization that has signed a contract with NORFED to use and distribute The Liberty Dollar. There are no dues, no meetings, no obligations, and no time requirements. You are required to physically redeem the currency for gold and silver, since that is handled by NORFED. It only takes $250 to become an RC. Out of the $250, your new RC gets back $100 in Liberty Dollars, your sponsor gets $100 for sponsoring your new RC, and NORFED retains $50 for administration fees. Your new RC is now upside-down for $150, but since you get $100 for every RC you sponsor, just sponsor two friends and now you are up $50. You have actually profited by doing what is good for the country! Sponsor more people, make more money. You can sponsor anyone, anywhere, anytime - many RCs sponsor on the Internet. There are no geographic limitations or boundaries. There are even international RCs. (NORFED is not a multilevel marketing program; the RC program is a single-tier sponsorship program.) In addition to your initial referral fee, you receive an additional 5% residual referral fee on all future currency that your sponsorees exchange. Want to make up to 40% on your money? What do Redemption Centers do? RCs make money by exchanging fiat government money for gold and silver money, placing The Liberty Dollar into circulation. RCs educate, evangelize, and support The Liberty Dollar by using the new currency in everyday transactions. RCs get the round, coin-like, one ounce Gold and Silver Libertys at greatly discounted prices. For instance, as an RC you can get 100 Silver Libertys (face value $10.00) for only $7.50 each. Every time you use or exchange a Silver Liberty at its face value of $10.00, you reclaim that discount of $2.50 and make 25% on your money. And if you purchase in greater quantities, you can get Libertys for even less than $7.50 each - sometimes as low as $6.00 a piece, depending on silver's market price! -------------------------------------------------- END text from NORFED --------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------- Yours truly, Gary Jeffers BEAT STATE!!!! oh, also all the other oppressors too. From profrv at nex.net.au Thu Aug 29 02:03:25 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 19:03:25 +1000 Subject: Basques-Papuans banned.BAN the STATE! Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020829190127.00a1dec0@mail.nex.net.au> http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,4991238%255E2703,00.html Jakarta to outlaw Papuan activists By Don Greenlees, Jakarta correspondent August 29, 2002 INDONESIAN police have drawn up plans to outlaw the main Papuan independence organisation in a crackdown on separatism aimed at preventing Papua from becoming a "second East Timor". Minutes of internal police meetings and documents obtained by The Australian, reveal a strategy to put the Papuan Presidium, the leading civilian proponent of an independent Papua, out of business, possibly by arresting and prosecuting its leaders. The 60-day operation, known as Adil Matoa, began this month with the aim of identifying separatists or separatist organisations, arresting and prosecuting individuals "committing treason or attacks against the state" and shutting down organisations conducting separatist activities. According to the minutes of a three-hour meeting on July 5, attended by 16 high-ranking officers of the Papua provincial police, the operation would seek to prosecute Presidium members "according to the law (by obtaining) clear evidence that their activities are towards the illegal separation of Papua from Indonesia". It warns that police need to take action to stop Papua becoming another East Timor. The moves to set up surveillance against Papuan political activists and pave the way for prosecutions come amid heightened determination in Jakarta to prevent separatist movements around the country building momentum for their causes. Analysis by the armed forces intelligence agency has played down the risks posed by the ill-equipped, poorly co-ordinated and relatively inactive armed wing of the Papuan resistance. But according to sources, armed forces intelligence is concerned about the potential for the political wing to build support, particularly overseas. There are fears that foreign lobbying activities could help change sentiment in countries such as the US and Australia, where governments support continued Indonesian rule based on Jakarta offering local autonomous rule. Exerting pressure on the civilian political movement is seen as the most effective way of containing the growth of pro-independence activity. An order signed by the Papuan police chief, Made Pastika, on July 17, initiating the operation, states that activities to combat Papuan separatists are to be carried out within the province, elsewhere in Indonesia and abroad. In this document, targets of the operation are cited as "suspected civilians and community organisations that have a vision and mission oriented towards the separation of Papua from the Indonesian republic and endangering the unity of the nation by violating national law". It also cites civilians and community organisations that "object to government policy using the cover of violation of human rights (and) violation of indigenous rights" and conduct activities that can "undermine the dignity of the government and state". Fearing the operation will trigger a round-up of civilian political and human rights activists, a national human rights group wrote to the police chief accusing the police of trying to turn legitimate human rights work into "a cheap issue to clamp down on innocent people". The letter by the Commission for Missing Persons and Victims of Violence (Kontras) warns the operation will only lead to a repeat of the "crimes against humanity committed in the past, for which the state was never held accountable". A written reply from police headquarters in Jakarta maintains there is a "strong reason" to run operation Adil Matoa because there is evidence "suspected individuals and community organisations have a mission (and) tried to build public opinion domestically and abroad to unify their vision for an independent Papua". "We hope that those illegal organisations will disband out of their own conscience," the letter states, in what activists regard as a reference to the Papuan Presidium. From profrv at nex.net.au Thu Aug 29 02:38:34 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 19:38:34 +1000 Subject: Thuggee Coppers.Cash for Kidneys. Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020829193419.00a1b470@mail.nex.net.au> Cops commit robbery in Sabarmati Express PTI [ THURSDAY, AUGUST 29, 2002 12:35:01 PM ] KANPUR: Three policemen robbed at gun point passengers travelling in a general compartment of the Sabarmati Express, while two persons were injured in the ensuing scuffle, railway police said here on Thursday. The passengers, about three dozen of them, were robbed by the armed cops between Orai and Pukhrayan stations on Kanpur-Jhansi route late on Wednesday night, they said. According to reports, the policemen entered the coach and demanded Rs 50 from each passenger. When the passengers objected, they allegedly started beating them with gun butts, injuring Santoo, a resident of Unnao district and Ram Babu of Faizabad, the General Railway Police, Kanpur said. They also opened the luggages of some passengers and after looting their belongnings, got down at Pukhrayan and escaped, the GRP said. However, no formal complaint about the robbery was lodged with Kanpur GRP, they added. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow.asp?artid=20552036 UK doctor puts Indian kidneys up for sale RASHMEE Z AHMED TIMES NEWS NETWORK [ WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 28, 2002 6:47:51 PM LONDON: India has once again come to unhealthy prominence as one of the world's leading underground organ bazaars with the revelation that a Britain-based Indian doctor agreed to broker the cut-price sale of a kidney from a living Indian donor. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow.asp?artid=20479282 From profrv at nex.net.au Thu Aug 29 05:39:12 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 22:39:12 +1000 Subject: Net Repression,Michigan. Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020829223737.00a19700@mail.nex.net.au> Feds Rousting Adult Websites; Tying Them into Kiddie Porn The state of Michigan is demanding that six Web site billing companies stop processing payments from computer users interested in getting child pornography online. But now the edict is extending beyond kiddie porn to mainstream adult websites. Michigan's attorney General Jennifer Granholm announced yesterday that her office has issued cease and desist orders to BillCards, CardBilling, Ccbill, LancelotSecurity, iBill and Trust-Bill. Each of the companies were notified that providing access to and collecting proceeds from members on behalf of child pornography Web sites constituted aiding and abetting child porn distribution, which is illegal in Michigan. However a livid Frank Bongiorno one of the directors of the Barely Legal series reports that his website frankiesangels.com has been turned off buy iBill which was labeled by Granholm as one of "the keepers of the keys to child porn Web sites across the globe" and would be taken to criminal court. "They turned off my site this morning without any evidence whatsoever," said Bongiorno, referring to iBill. "I have a completely legal site. I have all the 2257 paperwork in my lap right now. I'm going over all ID's and model releases. I got for that barely legal market. I have a lot of young girls on my site, but there's absolutely no children on my site." Bongiorno says he's been on the line with attorney Jeffrey Douglas who's checking his content and had just appeared on a webmaster's radio show. "I'm putting the word out there that iBill is not backing us up," he said. "They got scared- they got threatened and they just cut us off." Asked what iBill's accounting of the situation was, Bongiorno said he was told that iBill was under investigation for promoting the sale of child pornography [Granholm said she believes this is the first time law enforcement has gone after these types of Internet billers]. "They said because of that they turned off our billing," Bongiorno added. "They literally make billions off the adult industry every year and after all the money we make for them they turn us off without any evidence. Just because the attorney general threatened their merchant accounts." From profrv at nex.net.au Thu Aug 29 05:43:18 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 22:43:18 +1000 Subject: Man in the middle attacked. Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020829224212.00a1cae0@mail.nex.net.au> Conversations with Frank Bongiorno Kelly from frankiesangels.com Model Kelly who's featured on frankiesangels.com looks like a healthy piece of ass to us. But definitely not underage. However try convincing iBill, Frank Bongiorno's billing company which just pulled the plug on him in the wake of a campaign of terror now being waged by Michigan attorney general Jennifer Granholm who's running for governor. Surprise, surprise. Yesterday Granholm issued a cease and desist to six billing companies one of which is iBill essentially suggesting that they were aiding and abetting child pornography. Gene: I've been looking through your members' site and I don't see anything that's even remotely questionable. Bongiorno: Surprisingly, neither did I. And I happen to be vehemently opposed to child pornography. Gene: Other than to say you've got some smokin' girls. Bongiorno: Thank you. That's our intention. Gene: Girls from San Diego, right? Bongiorno: Yes. Gene: I got to move down there, man. It's brutal up here. I can't take it anymore. Bongiorno: I get new girls- secretaries, waitresses, housewives, college girls. They come in and do a few scenes, a few pictorials, maybe a movie and they go back to their regular jobs. This is the only place you're going to see these girls. They're just young, beautiful girls who share a bit of their normally private sex lives with us for our entertainment. They're not poisoned by the Valley. They're not on every boxcover. They're just young, fresh, beautiful girls. Believe it or not the vast majority are clean and not on drugs. Gene: We're definitely operating out of the wrong neck of the woods. Bongiono: The Valley has become poisoned with the routine- the same agents and the same cycles. I started down in San Diego but everyone told me I had to go to L.A. to get big. I said I'm not going to do it. I'm going to do it my way. It's taken me four years of plugging away and making a name for myself. Gene: This is what you do, just go out there talent scouting and shoot. Bongiorno: I treat the models so well I never have to advertise or scout any more. The new girls who work for me, each one refers two or three girls to me. I turn down girls every week. It doesn't cost me a dime in advertising. Gene: Aaaaaagh, stop, you're killing me! Bongiorno: It's awesome; I love it down here. I initially started doing some advertising when I didn't have a name. Gene: To me this is the ultimate all-American wet dream where as a photographer you see girls in a mall, you walk up to her, hand her a card, blah, blah, blah. Bongiorno: I don't do that. I'm embarrassed. I hate bothering people. That's not my style. But I make sure that when a model comes into my office, I treat her like a princess with respect. I know she has ten friends and she'll refer them to me. I used to advertise once a month for two days. I've stopped doing that. Gene: How did you make your break in the business? Bongiorno: I made my first two movies myself. I didn't have a distributor. I just packed my van with videos and went from video store to distributor to video store and kept selling them until I made enough money where I could go make another one. I was having Trac Tech duplicate for me. I'd pick them up then go up and down the coast selling my movies myself. I made some decent money doing that. Eventually one of my screeners got to Hustler and they wanted to talk to me about shooting for Barely Legal. Gene: I'm flabbergasted by the extent of the talent working for you but really riled at the position iBill has taken with you. Bongiorno: If it was good enough for Larry Flynt it was good enough for me. I'm kind of glad I got singled out. I'll stand up and fight. I'm not doing anything wrong. I'm a disabled veteran. I fought for some rights and I damn well plan on using some of them. They've put pressure on the billing companies and it's all because of this Jennifer Granholm. She's running for governor and is looking for some votes. They've picked the wrong people to screw with. Gene: And iBill folded so easily. Bongiorno: Supposedly Ccbill got the same notification but they notified their webmasters. They haven't shut them off yet. I just got off the phone with Epic who said they'd get back to me whether they can take me on. We're putting together all our paperwork to prove how legal we are. Actually we tried to call iBill on air during the webmasters' radio show and question them about it. They hung up on us. Ten minutes later my sales rep at iBill e-mailed me asking if I'm able to send them all my paperwork. I don't know how many thousands of sheets I have which is a part of this 2257 compliance. They want me to fax over all my paperwork. http://www.generossextreme.com/ From profrv at nex.net.au Thu Aug 29 05:56:14 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 22:56:14 +1000 Subject: Kournikova,the social virus. Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020829225515.00a1b070@mail.nex.net.au> Penthouse Readers Sue Over Kournikova They wanted to see Anna naked. They didn't see Anna naked. Hence a class action has been filed in Chicago by readers who bought the June issue of Penthouse magazine, saying they were defrauded by the promise of nude photos of tennis star Anna Kournikova. The magazine buyers said they paid for the magazine based on a headline, "Exclusive Anna Kournikova Caught Close Up on Nude Beach." But they did not get what they paid for. The photos are those of another woman, Judith Soltesz-Benetton. Both women have since sued the magazine and its publisher over the mistake. The class action suit was brought against General Media Communications Inc., publisher of Penthouse which has a monthly circulation of 654,000. As a result of the deceptive headline, according to the complaint, Penthouse was able to double its circulation for the month of June to nearly 1.2 million. Penthouse also raised the newsstand price for that one issue from $7.99 to $8.99. The photographs in question were taken in Florida by a jewelry salesman videotaping sunbathers, says the complaint. He was approached by General Media Communications Inc. who analyzed the video stills declaring the images of Kournikova to be authentic, according to the complaint. As early as April, the tennis star, through her agents, denied that they were authentic, but Penthouse published the photographs anyway more than a month later. The action was filed in Chancery Court in Cook County by Aron Robinson, a sole practitioner, on behalf of those who bought the Kournikova issue at newsstands. The complaint claimed breach of contract, consumer fraud and breach of express warranty, and makes a general claim for reimbursement of the price of the magazine to the class. From profrv at nex.net.au Thu Aug 29 07:20:18 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 00:20:18 +1000 Subject: Recipe for explosive justice. Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020830001914.009e9670@mail.nex.net.au> When individuals distribute information about or alternatively manufacture explosives they are prosecuted. When corporations manufacture explosive devices and sell them to people/countries who use them to kill and opress other people it's acceptable and encouraged. Does posting a route to R.D.X. makes one a criminal or does it turn this page into a terrorist page(Oh, my oh my)!! ;) Manufacture: 100mL of 95% or better white nitric acid, 14g of hexamethylenetetramine, 16g of ammonium nitrate, 100mL of acetone, A 150mL beaker, A 250mL beaker, A 500mL beaker, A hot water bath, A cold water/ice bath, A glass rod, A thermometer, 1000mL of distilled water, 100mL of 10% sodium carbonate solution, A filter funnel, Two filter papers. 1) Pour the nitric acid into the 250mL beaker, and put it into the cold water bath. 2) Add the ammonium nitrate, abd stir it until it dissolves. 3) While keeping the temperature at around 25*C, stir in the hexamethylenetetramine. 4) When it has all been added, stir it for 10 minutes while warming it up to 50*C to 55*C in the hot water bath. 5) Hold it at 50*C to 55*C for 5 minutes, and then let it cool back down to 20*C. 6) Pour 300mL of distilled water into the 500mL beaker, and add the reaction to it. 7) Leave it to precipitate the R.D.X., and filter it out. 8) Wash the solid in the filter with 150mL of water, then the sodium carbonate soltion, then with the remaining 150mL of water. 9) Scoop the crystals out into the 150mL beaker, and add the acetone. 10) Warm it to 50*C in the hot water bath, and filter it. 11) Dump the filtrate into 400mL of cold, distilled water, and filter out the crystals. 12) Leave the crystals spread out to dry. Does this sound right to youse? From profrv at nex.net.au Thu Aug 29 08:01:01 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 01:01:01 +1000 Subject: Air Nazi's and pig-headed approach to policing. Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020830004850.009e9c70@mail.nex.net.au> Holocaust survivors pressure company over shoe name British sports manufacturer Umbro says it will drop the name Zyclon from a range of sports shoes after Jewish groups pointed out the gas with the same name was used by the Nazis to kill millions of people in concentration camps. CC Subject: Re: website? Ah yes, www.blackshirts.info Lord of the flies? http://www.melbourne.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=32522&group=webcast Activists from the Network Against Prohibition today presented NT Police Minister Syd Stirling with a platter containing 2 pigs heads. Other activists had pigs heads mounted on sticks. The action was taken to demonstrate against the pig-headed approach to policing being taken by the NT Government. http://napnt.tripod.com/pages/Articles_15.htm#article2 From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Fri Aug 30 01:14:03 2002 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 01:14:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dead Bovine RC5?? Message-ID: <200208300814.g7U8E3l11027@artifact.psychedelic.net> The Bovine RC5 project on distributed.net has so far checked 86.742% of the keyspace in 1,772 days, without finding the key. Assuming that all values of the key are equally likely, it is perhaps time to start thinking about the entertaining prospect that the entire keyspace will be exhausted without a key being found. This could happen if there were a bug in the client, a bug in the server, or if people were spoofing blocks to the server, reporting them as failures without having actually searched them for the key. Let's let "eps" in [0,1] be the probability that something is screwed up in the project which prevents the key from being located. Let C in [0,1] be the percentage of the keyspace that has been searched so far, and let F in [0,1] be the probability that the project is F---ed, which we define as the project continuing to completion without finding a key. Obviously 1-eps is the probability that the software will find a key somewhere, and after searching a C fraction of the keyspace, C*(1-eps) is the probability that we will have declared victory and gone home, and (1-C)*(1-eps)+eps is the probability that we are still chugging along. Ergo, the probability that we will complete without finding a key, over the probability that we are still in business after searching the fraction C, becomes after some minor algebraic tweeking... F = eps/(1-C*(1-eps)) Let's look at this function for various degrees of completion of the search, and various probabilities that the software is broken. For eps = .01, a 1 in 100 chance that the software doesn't work, the chances that the project is F---ed rachets up in the following manner as more and more keyspace is searched without a successful conclusion. % Searched F---ed? ---------- ------- 86.742 7.0794 90 9.1743 95 16.807 99 50.251 99.9 90.992 99.99 99.02 99.999 99.901 After 99% of the keyspace is searched without finding a key, there is about a 50-50 chance no key will be found, and if 99.9% of the keyspace is searched with no key, we may say with 90% confidence that the project will not end successfully. For eps = .001, a 1 in 1000 chance that some horrible bug or vindictive hacker has made an appearance, the table looks like this. % Searched F---ed? ---------- ------- 86.742 0.74936 90 0.99108 95 1.9627 99 9.0992 99.9 50.025 99.99 90.917 99.999 99.011 Now, we have to search 99.9% of the keyspace before we have a 50-50 chance no key will be found at all, and 99.99% before we know that fact with 90% confidence. And providing the project checked their code with sufficient sloppiness that there is a 1 in 10 chance all the CPU spent so far has been wasted, we have the following table. % Searched F---ed? ---------- ------- 86.742 45.595 90 52.632 95 68.966 99 91.743 99.9 99.108 99.99 99.91 99.999 99.991 Here we see they are almost to the point aleady where they are as likely as not to fail, but we will still need 99% of the keyspace to be searched, to be able to state that with over 90% confidence. For a piece of software a complex as the RC5 client, and associated keyblock server, I think 99% confidence that the software does not have a major undiscovered bug is a comfortable upper bound. This means that there is less than a 10% chance that the project is screwed now, but things will start to get interesting once we get into the high 90's in terms of percentage keyspace search, if the key has still not been located. I'm sure we'll all be watching with breathless anticipation as the remaining keyspace is exhausted over the next few months. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From schear at lvcm.com Fri Aug 30 08:13:36 2002 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 08:13:36 -0700 Subject: The Liberty Dollar In-Reply-To: <3D6F7EAF.2020006@algroup.co.uk> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020829164519.051ce180@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020830081128.04af5c10@pop3.lvcm.com> At 03:18 PM 8/30/2002 +0100, you wrote: >Steve Schear wrote: >>At 03:52 PM 8/29/2002 -0500, Gary Jeffers wrote: >> >>> The money is backed by silver and gold and can be redeemed widely >>>in America. >> >>True but only fractionally (i.e., the precious metal content is only a >>fraction of the face value). > >And this is different from the US dollar how? No difference except I think I know the risks involved with the current crime syndicate ;-) steve From jya at pipeline.com Fri Aug 30 08:26:12 2002 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 08:26:12 -0700 Subject: USA v. Abdallah Higazy Message-ID: Cryptome offers 2 court orders and 22 formerly sealed documents in the case of Abdallah Higazy, an Egyptian national in the US to attend school, who was detained as a material witness based on a false accusation by a hotel guard of possessing an air-to-ground communcation device while staying in a hotel across from the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001. Higazy was also allegedly coerced by an FBI agent during a polygraph examination to admit possessing the device, and an investigation of this coercion is underway. http://cryptome.org/usa-v-higazy.htm (440KB) The documents were unsealed on August 14, 2002 in response to a request by reporter Ben Weiser of the New York Times. Related news reports in the New York Times, August 16, 2002, and the Village Voice, August 28, 2002 provide some of the information redacted. The Voice writes: It was dumb luck, not good police work, that freed Higazy. But the two FBI agents named in papers making the botched case against him are likely still investigating the September 11 attacks. The FBI's New York office would not comment on personnel questions, but a knowledgeable law enforcement source says neither of the agents -- Christopher Bruno and Vince Sullivan -- was ever disciplined or retrained. From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Fri Aug 30 10:56:24 2002 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 10:56:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Thwarting LE library fishing expeditions In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020830091523.04b4f008@pop3.lvcm.com> from "Steve Schear" at Aug 30, 2002 09:25:01 AM Message-ID: <200208301756.g7UHuO111708@artifact.psychedelic.net> Steve writes: > Q: Are such "deadman" data bases systems unlawful? Can LE force the > library to provide false information to a patron? The question is whether a jury of properly trained Sheeple would convict when the librarian was dragged into court, and accused of illegally leaking information about an ongoing criminal investigation, putting agents lives at risk, obstructing justice, having the same agenda as the terrorists, etc. The answer to this question is almost certainly "Yes," particularly in the new nastier post-9/11 legal climate. I certainly wouldn't want to be anywhere near the librarian who volunteers to be the test case here. A well-known Seattle Activist, the webmaster of www.stopamerica.org, was recently indicted by a federal grand jury on charges of having "discussions" in 1998 related to the possible setting up of a training camp in Oregon. It is not alleged that he did anything, merely that he "discussed," whatever that means, and several years before anyone flattened any New York skyscrapers. One can now get arrested and charged with a laundry list of "terrorist" crimes for... Having the same training as the terrorists Having the same radio as the terrorists Having links to terrorists Having discussions years ago about things that are now considered linked to terrorists Soon to come, I expect... Reading the same books as the terrorists Being pissed at the same governments as the terrorists Supporting the same social issues as the terrorists -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From profrv at nex.net.au Thu Aug 29 20:15:38 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 13:15:38 +1000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Britain=92s_Guardian_backs_CIA_dirty_tricks_?= in Zimbabwe Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020830131227.00a183e0@mail.nex.net.au> Britain's Guardian backs CIA dirty tricks in Zimbabwe Article criticising the Guardian's editorial stance on Zimbabwe ( WSWS ) See also this Guardian leader from Saturday, this Guardian leader from March, and this blog entry from earlier this monthLINKS http://www.hullocentral.demon.co.uk/site/anfin.htm Attacks on an Independent radio station and a human rights group in Zim just now. The African anarchism list to send a message email anarchy_africa at yahoogroups.com http://struggle.ws/africa.html From freesixtyminuteofapornmovie at framesetup.com Fri Aug 30 10:44:44 2002 From: freesixtyminuteofapornmovie at framesetup.com (free xxx movie) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 13:44:44 -0400 Subject: free 60 minute porn movie Message-ID: <200208291747.g7THlNTU009968@ak47.algebra.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 619 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mmotyka at lsil.com Fri Aug 30 13:17:13 2002 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 14:17:13 -0600 Subject: Thwarting LE library fishing expeditions Message-ID: <3D6FD2C9.EBFE9836@lsil.com> Steve Schear wrote : > >After reading this ALA document >http://www.ala.org/alaorg/oif/usapatriotlibrary.html , I believe I have >concocted a legal administrative measure to thwart the anonymous fishing >expeditions (esp.those authorized under the USA Patriot Act). In a >nutshell, libraries would create a database to track and manage LE requests >(this might be manual or online). They would also make available a special >service, perhaps charged to their library account, for their patrons to >check whether their names were in this database and guarantee a response >within 48 hours. If they were in the DB the library would fail to respond, >thus providing a sort of ZK proof of investigation. > >Q: Are such "deadman" data bases systems unlawful? Can LE force the >library to provide false information to a patron? > Looks like they can do any damn thing they please up to and including killing you and be praised for it. Somewhere underneath the pseudopatriotic chanting and totalitarian terrorism there lies what's left of America. May it rest in peace. >steve > I think maybe the better approach would be to ensure that the information they might be looking for is never created. Various anonymity systems for book checkout and collateral might be devised. Probably the best approach would be to digitize books and let them circulate on CD via sneakernet. Then you get into the handy dandy little ID code that each CD writer contains and writes to each CD. Anyone know how to defeat that? I think a random # option would be nice. Books without images should compress very nicely as text files. I think everybody should have a copy of every book. There is safety in uniformity. Mike From ben at algroup.co.uk Fri Aug 30 07:18:23 2002 From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 15:18:23 +0100 Subject: The Liberty Dollar References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020829164519.051ce180@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <3D6F7EAF.2020006@algroup.co.uk> Steve Schear wrote: > At 03:52 PM 8/29/2002 -0500, Gary Jeffers wrote: > >> The money is backed by silver and gold and can be redeemed widely >> in America. > > > True but only fractionally (i.e., the precious metal content is only a > fraction of the face value). And this is different from the US dollar how? Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ Available for contract work. "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From ben at algroup.co.uk Fri Aug 30 07:18:23 2002 From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 15:18:23 +0100 Subject: The Liberty Dollar References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020829164519.051ce180@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: Gecko/20020815 Ben Laurie wrote: >At 03:18 PM 8/30/2002 +0100, you wrote: >>Steve Schear wrote: >>>At 03:52 PM 8/29/2002 -0500, Gary Jeffers wrote: >>>> >>>> The money is backed by silver and gold and can be redeemed widely >>>>in America. >>> >>>True but only fractionally (i.e., the precious metal content is only a >>>fraction of the face value). >> >>And this is different from the US dollar how? The Liberty Dollar is (at least) partially precious metal backed and is not fiat money. In fact, it may be considered fully backed! If you accept the standard deal offered by NORFED then the $US-Libery Dollar exchange does not go well for you :-) Negotiate! Actually, since the silver redeemability is fixed, then I think that we must consider the Liberty FULLY backed and not fiat. It merely appears only partially backed since the initial $ exchange offering could be better :-) -And I bet we can get better terms. Also, it is NOT DEBT ISSUED! (DOOM ISSUED!) It does not enrich a ruling elite. In fact, it subverts their trechery. It is also a choice. It is not forced on us by legal tender laws. Ben Laurie wrote: >no difference except I think I know the risks involved with the current >crime syndicate ;-) >steve See my above text. From pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz Thu Aug 29 20:37:25 2002 From: pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 15:37:25 +1200 (NZST) Subject: right MTA for crypto support Message-ID: <200208300337.PAA03750@ruru.cs.auckland.ac.nz> Eric Murray writes: >On Wed, Aug 28, 2002 at 03:26:47PM +1200, Peter Gutmann wrote: >> Eugen Leitl writes: > >(actually, I wrote:) Oops, sorry, trimmed the wrong text. >>>It's relatively easy to turn on TLS in sendmail. It's not secure against >>>active attackers that can modify the data in the TCP stream but it's better >>>than nothing. >> >>Actually it's better than any other mail security out there. See the slides >>for my talk at Usenix Security >>(http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/usenix02_slides.pdf) for more >>details (the StartTLS stuff is about halfway through). > >It depends on how you define "better". Currently the amount of my mail protected by traditional means is essentially nonexistant. I get one piece of PGP-encrypted mail every month or two (and I was one of the peope who helped write the thing!) and I don't recall ever having received or sent any S/MIME-encrypted mail. OTOH something like 10-15% of all my mail is protected by STARTTLS, and the figure is rising continuously and will continue to do so (particularly if MS make some minor changes in Exchange which I've asked some people there about). It doesn't matter how many types of mail encryption software I have sitting unused on my hard drive, 10% (and growing) coverage with reasonable protection is better than 0% coverage with good protection. Peter. From profrv at nex.net.au Thu Aug 29 23:21:31 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 16:21:31 +1000 Subject: Showercam OK from judge.Brinworld in the toilet? Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020830162014.00a21190@mail.nex.net.au> Camera in shower 'not indecent' By Lee Glendinning August 30 2002 A man who secretly set up a video camera in his bathroom and recorded his flatmate showering and using the toilet escaped conviction yesterday. The decision, handed down in the Downing Centre Local Court, opens the way for people to disguise cameras and film others on their own property. Richard Palmer, 47, a former company director, was charged with committing an act of indecency after he made a full confession. The taping was discovered when his flatmate put a tape into the video recorder and saw herself naked in the shower and using the toilet. According to a police statement of facts tendered to the court, nine other videos were confiscated from Mr Palmer's unit. Between January 25 and March 25 this year, Mr Palmer secretly filmed his flatmate and other women in various states of undress, the court heard. Prosecutor Sergeant Pat Huolohan said Mr Palmer's actions were an outrage against community standards and decency. "The victim had a right to know her own private actions were being recorded on video for the sexual gratification of the defendant." In his judgement yesterday, magistrate Daniel Reiss found there was not enough evidence to suggest Mr Palmer committed the act of indecency "towards" his flatmate. Rather, it appeared the taping was for his own sexual gratification and as a challenge to see whether he could record someone without their consent. The prosecution plans to appeal. From profrv at nex.net.au Thu Aug 29 23:29:45 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 16:29:45 +1000 Subject: "This is the plant for pesticides against the bush..." Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020830162718.00a23650@mail.nex.net.au> http://smh.com.au/articles/2002/08/29/1030508098969.html Rats or humans? Inside Saddam's extermination plant. US Love it or drown it... In a scathing attack on their own country, a group of United States congressmen have called on President George Bush to ratify the Kyoto protocol on climate change, saying the US had a moral responsibility to small island nations threatened by rising sea levels. http://smh.com.au/articles/2002/08/29/1030508098972.html From jeffers at brick.net Fri Aug 30 15:21:35 2002 From: jeffers at brick.net (Gary Jeffers) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 17:21:35 -0500 Subject: The Liberty Dollar Message-ID: <000d01c25073$a7ad2a80$b1934ad1@garyjeff> THE LIBERTY DOLLAR My fellow Cypherpunks, From pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz Thu Aug 29 22:35:07 2002 From: pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 17:35:07 +1200 (NZST) Subject: Cryptographic privacy protection in TCPA Message-ID: <200208300535.RAA05478@ruru.cs.auckland.ac.nz> Nomen Nescio writes: >If a key is misused, i.e. "scraped" out of the TPM and used to create a >virtualized, rule-breaking software TPM, it can be revoked. This means that >all the TPMs that share that one key lose the use of that key. But it doesn't >matter much, because they each have many more they can use. Since it is >expected that only a small percentage of TPMs will ever need their keys >revoked, most TPMs should always have plenty of keys to use. I designed something along these lines some years ago as a way of building a fault-tolerant key management system. The idea is that you create a pile of keys, and these vote on key updates. If a key is compromised, you sign its replacement with a quorum of non-compromised keys, and replace the bad key. You also periodically roll over keys as a preventive measure, limiting exposure due to compromises. No need for a PKI or anything else complex like that, it's all automatic and transparent. There can be slight problems if a device stays offline long enough that enough keys have been rolled over to make reaching a quorum impossible, which was an issue when I designed the thing but rather unlikely now. I can dig up the exact details in case anyone's interested. Peter. From seattleplatypus at worldnet.att.net Fri Aug 30 18:08:26 2002 From: seattleplatypus at worldnet.att.net (james sanchez) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 18:08:26 -0700 Subject: Cyberpunks: Seattle "Activist" Is Not an Innocent Webmaster References: <3D70049A.AF538FF3@qwest.net> Message-ID: <3D701709.738D50DC@worldnet.att.net> Dear Eric: Although I do not know you, I am replying to you heartfelt cry of sympathy for James Ujaama, the "Seattle activist" you refer to below. I would preface my comments by saying I support civil rights, privacy rights and internet freedom of speech. As for James Ujaama, he is not being held on charges related to his jejune stopamerica.org website (which by the way mischaracterizes the Taliban as supporting education for women: Taliban did not.) Anyway: Ujaama is a black racial supremacist "Muslim" convert thug who stockpiled arms, shook down drug-dealers with his "Muslim" extortion gang, beat and brutalized and pistol-whipped real Muslims to gain control of a Mosque, planned to poison the Seattle and Tacoma water supply systems, worked with Semi Osman to collect intelligence on Navy POL stocks in the Puget sound, tried to organize a terrorist training camp with London-based Supporters of Shariah (SOS) in Oregon, supported the SOS "Ultimate Jihad Challenge" website that recruited and trained pro-Al-Qaeda soldiers, hand carried laptop computers to the Taliban/Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan (loaded with images and maps of potential terrorist targets in Seattle), and, with his cronies in Seattle, was involved in a chain of reported gang crimes including shootings, beatings, death threats, etc. (there were surely many more than were never reported). Ujaama swore alliegence as a Jihadi to Abu Hamza Al Masri and Jamil Abdullah Al-Amin. SOS boss Abu Hamza Al-Masri (convicted in absentia for terrorist attacks in Yemen) is linked with (shoe-bomber) Richard Reid and Zacarias Moussaoui; as well as with Jamil Abdullah Al-Amin (H.Rap Brown), the Atlanta cop-killer. Al-Amin was also a key members of Al-Masri calls the "Jihad in America" and recruited converts for terror groups including Lashkar-e-Taiba (a Kashmiri Mujahideen group). (On the internet, it is still possible to find the account of Shaheed Abu Adam, recruited by Al-Amin, transported by Al-Masri, and who died a Shaheed in Kashmir.) When Al-Amin was arrested in the copkilling case, Al-Masri noted, in his Al-Jihaad magazine, that Al-Amin and the Jihadis like him would wage Jihad a against the United States until the United States was destroyed or all the Jihadis had become Shaheeds (martyrs). SOS and its ally Al-Muhajiroun supplied as many as 2000 British nationals as soldiers to the Taliban, Al-Qaeda, Kashmiri Mujahideen, Chechen Mujahideen, Kosovar Mujahideen, and Bosnian Mujahideen. The silly little website, Stopamerica.org, has nothing to do with the actual charges against Ujaama. Oh, and Ujaama is not a real "well-known Seattle community activist": these days, every Black gangster is deemed to be a "community activist". Ujaama is an affirmative action golden boy, pampered and honored and government-funded (even his business that illegally supplied computers to the Taliban appears to have been government funded), and a beneficiary of the Black racist solidarity that applauds anything that young Black men do: crimes, beatings, extortion, firefights, even terrorism. But in spite of this he was a failure at everything: at school, in each of his businesses. Even though he was honored by the state proclaimed James Ujaama Day for being a "community activist" without visible accomplishments, his twisted sense of entitlement, cultivated by affirmative action, led him into conspiracies and fantasies of destroying America and poisoning the water supply of Seattle. If you want to defend civil rights, pick a different poster boy. Sincerely, James Joseph Sanchez, PhD (Middle East Studies), MLS Seattle P.S.--Having a Master's of Library Science, I oppose, as do all professional librarian associations and every librarian I ever met, any reporting to the police what books people read at libraries. ===== > > > Subject: > Re: Thwarting LE library fishing expeditions > Date: > Fri, 30 Aug 2002 10:56:24 -0700 (PDT) > From: > "Eric Cordian" > To: > cypherpunks at lne.com > > Steve writes: > > [...] > > A well-known Seattle Activist, the webmaster of www.stopamerica.org, was > > recently indicted by a federal grand jury on charges of having > "discussions" in 1998 related to the possible setting up of a training > camp in Oregon. It is not alleged that he did anything, merely that he > "discussed," whatever that means, and several years before anyone > flattened any New York skyscrapers. > > One can now get arrested and charged with a laundry list of "terrorist" > crimes for... > > Having the same training as the terrorists > > Having the same radio as the terrorists > > Having links to terrorists > > Having discussions years ago about things that are now considered linked > > to terrorists > > Soon to come, I expect... > > Reading the same books as the terrorists > > Being pissed at the same governments as the terrorists > > Supporting the same social issues as the terrorists > > -- > Eric Michael Cordian 0+ > O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division > "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From wolf at priori.net Fri Aug 30 18:14:32 2002 From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 18:14:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mitigating Dangers of Compromised Anonymity Message-ID: Operating an anonymity service or providing privacy enhancing technologies to the public poses potential risks to the provider if sufficiently motivated entities wish to prevent the availability of such technology. In particular danger are individuals whose meatspace identity and nyms are not publicly linked. If the attacker is able to compromise a nym and silence the individual in meatspace, other anonymity providers and the general public will have no way of knowing that this has occurred. This is information that is important to the public (who will want to know if a remailer's operator has disappeared, though his remailer is still operating) and to the other operators (who may be next.) Given the practice of remops hiding their identities, it would be somewhat difficult to connect the sudden tragic death of a quiet computer programmer in Arkansas with the abrupt silence of the operator of a remailer in New York, whose ID is unknown to all but a very few.[1] Given the necessity of providing on-going administration for a remailer server, and the lack of a viable IP-level anonymity system, a remop's identity is almost surely known to any attacker who can observe network traffic. Operating a remailer while concealing one's name from the general public makes it easier for this attacker to hide one's disappearance from the public, or delay their knowledge. Still, there are many compelling reasons to operate an anonymity service or provide anonymity software without revealing one's name. It would be desirable for a remop to be able to do so without putting himself at greater than normal risk. Discussions with some members of the remailer operator community [2] have lead me to propose the following "I am alive" monitoring system for anonymous members. Although it was designed with remailer operators in mind, this system could benefit other groups which face problems similar to the ones described above (such as human rights workers and people with Muslim-sounding last names who have recently emigrated to America). "I'm not Dead Yet" 1. This system assumes that a stable, reliable monitoring server can be operated in a fixed location on the Internet. The server stores a list of email addresses it is monitoring, a public PGP key for each nym, and a datestamp "s" (which is a number in seconds) for each nym. The server is configured with an "allowed silence period" variable "T", which is an integer equal to the number of days a monitored member may be without contact with the server and still be considered safe. 2. Users add themselves to the system by sending a signed administrative request to the server's email address and providing the public key to be used. Updates to the personal information for that nym can only be changed by further administrative email requests signed by the same key. 3. The monitoring server publishes a unique random nonce each day on its website and posted to USENET (in a suitable place such as alt.privacy.anon-server). The server will store a rolling list of nonces and their issuance date for the duration of T. 4. Members being monitored obtain this nonce, sign it with the key held by the server, and submit an "I am alive" notification. 5. Upon receipt of this notification, the server resets the datestamp s equal to the nonce issuance time. 6. If age of s (present time in seconds minus s) for any nym entry reaches (T-3)*86400, the nym address is pinged with a message -- "Are you alive?". If the nym's owner were alive and had simply forgotten to check in, he could respond within three days to avoid a false alert. 7. If the age of s reaches T*86400, a "Missing Nym" alert is issued, either to all of the other members of the monitoring service, a separate alerts list, or a public forum. 8. The missing nym owner can declare a false alert by checking in through the normal fashion. (There's an application for reputation tracking on nyms who cry wolf). Notes: a) Nym owners will wish to communicate with the monitoring server through anonymous remailers, as to avoid revealing their identities to the monitoring system. b) This system makes no distinction between nyms and true names. It can monitor email addresses of either. This could provide a useful system even if one is not using a real nym. c) The PGP keys supplied to the nym server for purpose of ID verification should be signing-only keys not used for any other purpose. This will eliminate justification for a legal or quasi-legal entity to seize the key. If a member is in the position to have his keys demanded from him, it will be obvious that this is only being done for one purpose: so that the public can be tricked into thinking he is alive and free (when presumably he will not be.) This should aid him in his decision to comply or not. -MW- -- [1] Anonymity software developers who publish their products anonymously are also potentially at risk. RProcess, the author of a popular Windows remailer client and a Mixmaster-compatible Windows remailer server suddenly "disappeared" from alt.privacy.anon-server a little over two years ago. His absence was noticed almost immediately, because he had been involved in several discussions and a major project at the time of his disappearance -- but had he been a remailer operator or a developer with little direct interaction with the public, he may have not been missed. [2] Peter Palfrader, Roger Dingledine, Len Sassaman, and Eric Arneson contributed suggestions to this system. Bill Stewart provided the initial suggestions. From profrv at nex.net.au Fri Aug 30 02:17:19 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 19:17:19 +1000 Subject: Stop! or my mother will shoot! Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020830191633.00a1a830@mail.nex.net.au> Seymore Mail Order Gene sez I hear things. I heard that up until two months ago Seymore Butts was ready to make a deal to sell his mail order. He had a tentative interested party. There was a handshake and a promise from Seymore to call. He never called. Seymore Chatter (from adultdvdtalk) Darth-MorpheousPosted - Aug 14 2002 : 02:00:26 PM I think seymore might have retired. He hasen't updated his site or answered his message board in weeks. Even throughout his lawsuits and personal problems he answered his board, updated his site, and released new material every month. He hasn't done any of the above. I think maybe he claimed bankruptcy and decided to leave the business. Did anyone hear any rumers? Speelie Member Fort Collins, CO 400 Posts 5/01 Posted - Aug 14 2002 : 04:16:58 PM I haven't heard anything, but if he was really going to hang it up, I think he would have done so already. My guess, pure speculation, is that he's taking a good long break/vacation now that he's not in a court case and is free to leave California. Darth-Morpheous Member 15 Posts 3/02 Posted - Aug 15 2002 : 02:51:09 AM I don't think so speelie. I think he would have posted something on his message board that he used to update daily. Even through the crises with the court cases and the break ups with alisha and Shane, he still had time for his fans. Thanks for the reply. Tampa Tushy Fest From the St. Petersburg Times, March 9, 2002: When Adam Glasser joined a bevy of California porn stars for a long weekend in Tampa in 1998, he did what has made him a brand name in adult films. He raised his camera and pushed "RECORD." Famous in the industry under the name Seymore Butts, Glasser's niche is "gonzo" porn, which involves filming - and performing in - unscripted sexual encounters. This one took place between two women in a Dale Mabry motel room, in a town renowned - some would say infamous - for welcoming the sex industry. The encounter's result was featured in Tampa Tushy-Fest, Part I, a film that Glasser says ranks among the most industry-lauded of the 100 he has made. It might also send the 37-year-old filmmaker to jail, along with his mother, Lila, the bookkeeper for his San Fernando Valley office. Next week, in a Los Angeles courtroom, the Glassers face trial on obscenity charges - the first such case to go to a jury there since 1993. Such defendants usually enter a plea and accept a fine, but Glasser decided to fight it. The city claims that specific acts Glasser filmed in the Tampa motel room were so extreme, so far beyond other porn films, that the movie flouts the community standards of Los Angeles. The case will be closely watched as it could help define obscenity standards for the multibillion-dollar West Coast porn industry. The case also will reinforce Tampa's longstanding reputation as a stronghold of the sex industry. Voyeur Web cams, a swingers group, sex shops, nude clubs: all have seized headlines in recent memory, largely through the city's efforts to shut them down. Bob Buckhorn, the council member who pushed a 1999 city ordinance banning lap dancing, has described Tampa as "the holy land for the porn industry." "Inevitably, what you hear from visitors and new residents is, 'Why are there strip clubs on every corner?' " Buckhorn said. "We are world famous for this stuff." And getting more attention all the time. A recent episode of the PBS documentary series Frontline dealt at length with the Tampa Tushy- Fest case. Tampa Tushy-Fest, Part II has been released. What accounts for Tampa's allure to the sex industry? Those who work in it point to heavy tourist traffic, designated zones for strip clubs and loopholes that make it possible to open adult businesses near churches and schools. And every September, the area plays host to an adult film awards gala hosted by Nightmoves, an Oldsmar-based adult magazine given out free in local sex shops. "It isn't quite the holy land, but it's a very adult friendly atmosphere," Nightmoves publisher Paul Allen said. "We've got beautiful girls, beautiful weather. We've got the best attorneys we'll ever need. And guys like (nude club kingpin) Joe Redner have laid the groundwork." Tampa's reputation as an adult-business haven has even permeated the world of sports. In the wake of the arrests of two National Hockey League players in a lap dancing raid, the NFL provided written warnings to all 31 teams about Tampa's sex entertainment just before Super Bowl XXXV in 2001. Many of the nation's sportswriters could have written the warning themselves. During a national conference call of football writers in 1999, a moment of silence was observed to mourn a fire that had recently damaged a nude club on Courtney Campbell Parkway, the Tanga Lounge. No one has sailed the winds of opportunity in Tampa better than Joe Redner. In the 1970s, Redner invested $1,600 in a dilapidated beer joint on Hillsborough Avenue, built a stage and opened a nude club called Night Gallery. Despite years of police raids, and what he estimates are 150 trips to jail, Redner owns three clubs, including the famous Mons Venus, and places his net worth at more than $10- million. If his clubs are known for pushing boundaries, Redner says it's partly the government's doing. For years, the threat of a yanked liquor license forced clubs to limit their raunchiness. Dancers stayed on stage away from customers. When the government banned the sale of liquor at nude clubs in the late 1970s, the lap dance was born. Luke Lirot, a First Amendment lawyer who represents Redner, said cities like Houston have far more strip clubs per capita than Tampa. Tampa's reputation as a place overrun by sex businesses is a misconception fostered by the city's well-publicized efforts to police them, Lirot said. When the city tried to shut down Voyeur Dorm - a Web site that peeks on a household of young women - the case reached a federal appeals court and brought nationwide attention. "Now, when people think of Web cam stuff, they think of Tampa," Lirot said. Lirot estimates thousands of adult-industry workers are in the Tampa Bay area, several hundred involved in making porn videos. For the annual Nightmoves awards, 30 or 40 porn stars fly in from around the country for a weekend of parties, radio gigs and appearances at adult clubs. It culminates in a black-tie gala. Glasser recorded portions of Tampa Tushy-Fest at the 1998 gala. But the segment that brought the obscenity charge took place at the motel on Dale Mabry. "I was really only taking advantage of the fact that there were other people from the industry from California who happened to be in town at the same time," said Glasser, who ate at a Dale Mabry Bennigan's every night of his Tampa trip because he lacked a car. He and his mother could face 720 days in county jail if convicted on misdemeanor obscenity charges. The effect could be great on the porn industry, for the case could draw a new line that porn filmmakers would cross at their own peril. The porn industry keeps getting more lucrative. The New York Times reported that Americans "pay more money for pornography in a year than they do on movie tickets, more than they do on all the performing arts combined . . . The porn business is estimated to total between $10-billion and $14-billion annually in the United States when you toss in porn networks and pay-per-view movies on cable and satellite, Internet Web sites, in-room hotel movies, phone sex, sex toys and magazines." George Cardona, chief of the criminal division in the Los Angeles City Attorney's office, said his office occasionally prosecutes cases like Glasser's in part to determine community standards of obscenity. Glasser is defiant. The actors in his films were consenting adults, he says, and he defends some of his work as how-to films that are educational, providing "an oasis in the desert of the adult marketplace." Glasser describes Tampa as a market burgeoning with potential porn- star talent. Some strippers who have suffered because of the city's lap dancing ban, he said, have turned to adult movies. "The girls are probably more willing and interested now than ever," Glasser said. From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Fri Aug 30 19:17:34 2002 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 19:17:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cyberpunks: Seattle "Activist" Is Not an Innocent Webmaster In-Reply-To: <3D701709.738D50DC@worldnet.att.net> from "james sanchez" at Aug 30, 2002 06:08:26 PM Message-ID: <200208310217.g7V2HYA12194@artifact.psychedelic.net> James Joseph Sanchez writes: > Although I do not know you, I am replying to you heartfelt cry of sympathy > for James Ujaama, the "Seattle activist" you refer to below. I would preface > my comments by saying I support civil rights, privacy rights and internet > freedom of speech. Well good for you. Do you post on Cypherpunks often? > As for James Ujaama, he is not being held on charges related to his jejune > stopamerica.org website I mentioned what charges he was being held on. Before the charges, he was simply being held at a federal gulag as a material witness, with nothing being produced by the government that he could defend himself against. The charges are an upgrade to his situation. > Anyway: Ujaama is a black racial supremacist "Muslim" convert thug who > stockpiled arms, shook down drug-dealers with his "Muslim" extortion gang, > beat and brutalized and pistol-whipped real Muslims to gain control of a > Mosque, planned to poison the Seattle and Tacoma water supply systems, [snip] And you know this how? Shouldn't the validity of such charges be determined by a trial, or has Shrub changed the Constitution to permit them to simply be stated as fact on the Internet by persons such as yourself? > Ujaama swore alliegence as a Jihadi to Abu Hamza Al Masri and Jamil Abdullah > Al-Amin. SOS boss Abu Hamza Al-Masri (convicted in absentia for terrorist > attacks in Yemen) is linked with (shoe-bomber) Richard Reid and Zacarias > Moussaoui; as well as with Jamil Abdullah Al-Amin (H.Rap Brown), the Atlanta > cop-killer. Al-Amin was also a key members of Al-Masri calls the "Jihad in > America" and recruited converts for terror groups including Lashkar-e-Taiba > (a Kashmiri Mujahideen group). (On the internet, it is still possible to > find the account of Shaheed Abu Adam, recruited by Al-Amin, transported by > Al-Masri, and who died a Shaheed in Kashmir.) When Al-Amin was arrested in > the copkilling case, Al-Masri noted, in his Al-Jihaad magazine, that Al-Amin > and the Jihadis like him would wage Jihad a against the United States until > the United States was destroyed or all the Jihadis had become Shaheeds > (martyrs). SOS and its ally Al-Muhajiroun supplied as many as 2000 British > nationals as soldiers to the Taliban, Al-Qaeda, Kashmiri Mujahideen, Chechen > Mujahideen, Kosovar Mujahideen, and Bosnian Mujahideen. You know, I really love this new form of character assassination, in which a laundry list of people someone is allegedly "linked to" is recited, and then their misdeeds are enumerated as if they were the deeds of the person being smeared. Perhaps someday we'll find who you're "linked to," Dr. Sanchez. > The silly little website, Stopamerica.org, has nothing to do with the actual > charges against Ujaama. Officially, at least. This is your second repetition of this Red Herring, as I never stated that the charges involved the website. > Oh, and Ujaama is not a real "well-known Seattle community activist": these > days, every Black gangster is deemed to be a "community activist". Ujaama is > an affirmative action golden boy, pampered and honored and government-funded > (even his business that illegally supplied computers to the Taliban appears > to have been government funded), and a beneficiary of the Black racist > solidarity that applauds anything that young Black men do: crimes, beatings, > extortion, firefights, even terrorism. I don't think your arguments are bolstered in the least by suggesting that African-American males have a monopoly on criminal activity, are excused their misdeeds because of their race, or are able to do nothing useful without the support of affirmative action and other peoples tax dollars. > Even though he was > honored by the state proclaimed James Ujaama Day for being a "community > activist" without visible accomplishments, his twisted sense of entitlement, > cultivated by affirmative action, led him into conspiracies and fantasies of > destroying America and poisoning the water supply of Seattle. Or at the very least, visions of booting the Zionist Entity out of Palestine. According to the charges, all of the illegal discussions he is accused of participating in years ago, relate to actions to be taken outside of the United States in various conflicts involving the mistreatment of indiginous Muslem populations. I find it unlikely that an author of books on entrepreneurship for poor inner-city kids, and an individual who has worked hard to improve his community, secretly wishes to poison everyone in it, regardless of his distaste for AmeriKKKan foreign policy. > If you want to defend civil rights, pick a different poster boy. This must be the Clinton-esque redefinition of "rights" as something deserved not by all, but only by those who "work hard and play by the rules." I've always felt that if something is a "right," then it can't simply be taken away if ones neighbors do not like ones politics. Obedient little suckups rarely need their civil rights defended, and I am more than happy to go on the record as defending the civil rights of Mr. Ujaama, no matter how strongly you feel he shouldn't have any. > P.S.--Having a Master's of Library Science, I oppose, as do all professional > librarian associations and every librarian I ever met, any reporting to the > police what books people read at libraries. That's very non-Black non-affirmative-action non-taxpayer-funded of you. Oh, and we're the "Cypherpunks." The "Cyberpunks" are a different outfit. Thank-you for visiting. Please come again. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From profrv at nex.net.au Fri Aug 30 02:20:34 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 19:20:34 +1000 Subject: Rattled mutilations in the midwest. Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020830191945.00a1dec0@mail.nex.net.au> Two more hotels pull sex movies in CCV Bloodbath Gene sez: I warned you a couple of weeks ago this was going to happen... The Cincinnati Enquirer reports: Two more Tristate hotels have agreed, under pressure from a local prosecutor and police, to remove adult, in-room movies after complaints from anti-pornography activists. It's an unusual strategy, say its proponents and national experts, and a further sign that Greater Cincinnati continues to take a leading role nationally in battling the distribution of sexually explicit materials. Comfort Suites hotel on Riverboat Row in Newport (Enquirer photo) Campbell County prosecutors this month warned owners of the Comfort Suites hotel on Riverboat Row in Newport [Kentucky] that they should cease offering adult movies to guests or face criminal charges. Spurred by complaints from supporters of local anti-pornography activists from Sharonville-based Citizens for Community Values, Campbell County Prosecutor Justin Verst, working with Newport police, had officers secretly check into the hotel and videotape six adult movies. Mr. Verst then sent a letter, dated Aug. 7, warning Comfort Suites officials that he believed that offering the movies, which he described as “hard-core pornographic material,” violated Kentucky law regarding distribution of obscene matter. Two days later Comfort Suites officials responded by removing the adult movies. Soon after, Mr. Verst said, other complaints prompted a Newport police investigation of the Travelodge, 220 York St. Officers told owners to stop offering explicit adult videotape rentals to adult guests for viewing on in-room VCRs, and the owners complied. Phil Burress, president of CCV, said his group's new strategy of targeting explicit adult movies offered by hotels is the first of its sort in the nation, and that more Tristate hotels will soon be investigated by CCV supporters. “The snowball is rolling now,” said Mr. Burress of his group's tactic that has affected three Tristate hotels in a month. Bruce Taylor, president and chief counsel for the National Law Center for Children and Families, said no other anti-pornography group in the country has successfully pressured three hotels within one region to drop adult movies. “That's unique,” Mr. Taylor, a former federal prosecutor, said Wednesday from the center's Fairfax, Va., headquarters. He said that the Tristate's history of prosecuting obscenity — made famous beginning in the 1970s with Hamilton County's legal battles with Hustler publisher Larry Flynt — adds to the leverage the CCV wields. “You have such a commitment and successful history of prosecution ... that the prosecutors only have to tell the hotels to remove the movies,” he said. Earlier this month CCV officials grabbed national attention when they announced that their supporters had videotaped adult movies in the Marriott Northeast hotel in Deerfield Township and forwarded them to Warren County Prosecutor Tim Oliver. Mr. Oliver said be believed the movies violated Ohio's obscenity laws and warned Marriott officials of possible criminal charges, prompting them to remove the movies. “I'd be very surprised if other actions are not taken by other prosecutors against hotels that are dealing in hard-core pornography,” said Mr. Burress, who declined to reveal any details. The CCV, which was founded in 1983 as an anti-pornography, pro-family advocacy group, has been a high-profile lobbying force against Tristate pornography and what it claims are its detrimental effects on families, individuals and society. But civil liberties advocates blasted CCV's strategy as unfair to adults who say actions against their limited entertainment options might soon be followed by other restrictions imposed by watchdog groups. “The CCV is trying to export their own Taliban style of fundamentalism,” said Scott Greenwood, general counsel for the American Civil Liberties Union of Ohio and a Cincinnati-based attorney. Mr. Greenwood said the anti-pornography group's latest strategy, focusing on mostly out-of-town travelers and tourists, “points out to a more pressing problem of why does the CCV find it so necessary to go after people who don't even live here.” He said he is not surprised that hotels quickly choose to remove such adult entertainment rather than engage in litigation. “They don't have deep pockets and these hotels are in business to make money, not to defend the First Amendment,” he said. CCV officials estimate that 40 percent of the nation's hotels offer adult movie options, accounting for about 90 percent of pay-per-view revenue. An Enquirer phone survey last year showed that more than half of 20 Hamilton County hotels queried provided such entertainment. H. Louis Sirkin, a First Amendment and Cincinnati trial attorney, described CCV as a “vigilante group” whose only power comes from prosecutors he claims are not protecting citizens' rights. “What's really frightening about this is that there are local prosecutors who are willing to forget their constitutional oath to protect the First Amendment,” said Mr. Sirkin, who added that “it's really easy to scare people and that's what the local governments are doing to the hotels.” Mr. Sirkin, who has represented Mr. Flynt and was defense counsel during the city's famous Robert Mapplethorpe obscenity trial against the Contemporary Arts Center exhibition of his photos in 1990, said, “It's disturbing to me that Cincinnati is getting a national reputation for this and that's one of the reasons the city is going stale.” Travelodge management was unavailable for comment but Chester Musselman, CEO of Louisville-based Musselman Hotels and owner of the Comfort Suites at 420 Riverboat Row, said this is the first time such a complaint has been lodged against any of his 25 hotels in Kentucky, Indiana and Tennessee. “This is not an issue to us,” Mr. Musselman said. “I'm running a business and I'll abide by the local laws.” Mr. Verst stated in an Aug. 22 letter to Comfort Suites that Newport police will “occasionally check your business to ensure that no further such pornographic movies are being shown,” or criminal charges will be filed. Mr. Burress said that “no doubt some people will label this action a violation of privacy (but) it's not a matter of violating privacy or of imposing values. It's a matter of law. “This is not about what someone views in the privacy of their home or hotel room,” he said. “This is about selling and distributing obscenity. There are state laws against that and major hotels are not above the law.” http://www.generossextreme.com/ From profrv at nex.net.au Fri Aug 30 02:21:25 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 19:21:25 +1000 Subject: Cold Kenfucky rain. Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020830192056.00a1c130@mail.nex.net.au> CCV Exalts in Latest Victory Over Porn The Citizens for Community Values has put out the following press release: Newport, KY - Comfort Suites Hotel, located at 420 Riverboat Row in Newport, Campbell County Kentucky, has stopped making adult pay-per-view movies available to its guests. The policy change was announced in an August 9 letter from Tom Hillman, Director of Operations for Louisville-based Musselman Hotels, parent of the Newport Comfort Suites, to Justin Verst, Campbell County Attorney. Earlier that month Verst had advised the hotel that their hardcore, pornographic movies may be in violation of Kentucky's obscenity law. The news came on the heels of a similar announcement by another Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky hotel, the Cincinnati Marriott Northeast, to pull the plug on its adult pay-per-view offerings. The Marriott had been advised by Warren County Prosecutor Tim Oliver that pandering hardcore pornographic movies may be a violation of Ohio's obscenity law. CCV President Phil Burress praised Verst for his willingness to enforce Kentucky's obscenity law. "Newport has worked hard to erase its former 'sin city' image and to raise community standards," Burress said, "and Justin Verst has been a large part of that effort. With Comfort Suites out of the adult pay-per-view business, Campbell County is now free of businesses pandering hardcore pornography." Kentucky and Ohio are among 45 states with laws prohibiting the pandering of hardcore pornography. In addition, a federal law prohibits interstate transportation of hardcore pornography, including the Internet. "No doubt some people will label this action a violation of privacy," said Burress. "It's not a matter of violating privacy or of imposing values. It is a matter of law. In Stanley vs. Georgia (1969) the U.S. Supreme Court made it clear that the First Amendment protects the private use of obscene pornography. But in Miller vs. California (1973) the same court also made it clear that the sale and distribution of obscene pornography is not protected by the First Amendment." Burress continued, "This is not about what someone views in the privacy of their home or hotel room. This is about selling and distributing obscenity. There are state and federal laws against that. And major hotels are not above the law." Gene sez: My question is when did Kentucky become annexed to Cincinnati and why is that state allowing the CCV to dictate policy? From adam at homeport.org Fri Aug 30 18:48:18 2002 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 21:48:18 -0400 Subject: Mitigating Dangers of Compromised Anonymity In-Reply-To: ; from wolf@priori.net on Fri, Aug 30, 2002 at 06:14:32PM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20020830214818.A70866@lightship.internal.homeport.org> I'd like to suggest that while this may be fun, usability and getting millions of users to see that remailers are useful to them is a more useful goal. The anonymity set provided by the current extant systems is too small to protect anyone against anyone who is willing to kill or disapear people as part of their attacks against the remailers. Oh, yeah, and incidentally, if you build this system, the attacker can simply add a bit of rubber hosing to their remop elimination program. Adam On Fri, Aug 30, 2002 at 06:14:32PM -0700, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote: | Operating an anonymity service or providing privacy enhancing | technologies to the public poses potential risks to the provider if | sufficiently motivated entities wish to prevent the availability of such | technology. | | In particular danger are individuals whose meatspace identity and nyms are | not publicly linked. If the attacker is able to compromise a nym and | silence the individual in meatspace, other anonymity providers and the | general public will have no way of knowing that this has occurred. | | This is information that is important to the public (who will want to know | if a remailer's operator has disappeared, though his remailer is still | operating) and to the other operators (who may be next.) | | Given the practice of remops hiding their identities, it would be somewhat | difficult to connect the sudden tragic death of a quiet computer | programmer in Arkansas with the abrupt silence of the operator of a | remailer in New York, whose ID is unknown to all but a very few.[1] | | Given the necessity of providing on-going administration for a remailer | server, and the lack of a viable IP-level anonymity system, a remop's | identity is almost surely known to any attacker who can observe network | traffic. Operating a remailer while concealing one's name from the general | public makes it easier for this attacker to hide one's disappearance from | the public, or delay their knowledge. Still, there are many compelling | reasons to operate an anonymity service or provide anonymity software | without revealing one's name. It would be desirable for a remop to be able | to do so without putting himself at greater than normal risk. | | Discussions with some members of the remailer operator community [2] have | lead me to propose the following "I am alive" monitoring system for | anonymous members. Although it was designed with remailer operators in | mind, this system could benefit other groups which face problems similar | to the ones described above (such as human rights workers and people with | Muslim-sounding last names who have recently emigrated to America). | | | "I'm not Dead Yet" | | 1. This system assumes that a stable, reliable monitoring server can be | operated in a fixed location on the Internet. | | The server stores a list of email addresses it is monitoring, a public PGP | key for each nym, and a datestamp "s" (which is a number in seconds) for | each nym. | | The server is configured with an "allowed silence period" variable "T", | which is an integer equal to the number of days a monitored member may be | without contact with the server and still be considered safe. | | 2. Users add themselves to the system by sending a signed administrative | request to the server's email address and providing the public key to be | used. Updates to the personal information for that nym can only be changed | by further administrative email requests signed by the same key. | | 3. The monitoring server publishes a unique random nonce each day on its | website and posted to USENET (in a suitable place such as | alt.privacy.anon-server). | | The server will store a rolling list of nonces and their issuance date for | the duration of T. | | 4. Members being monitored obtain this nonce, sign it with the key held by | the server, and submit an "I am alive" notification. | | 5. Upon receipt of this notification, the server resets the datestamp s | equal to the nonce issuance time. | | 6. If age of s (present time in seconds minus s) for any nym entry reaches | (T-3)*86400, the nym address is pinged with a message -- "Are you alive?". | If the nym's owner were alive and had simply forgotten to check in, he | could respond within three days to avoid a false alert. | | 7. If the age of s reaches T*86400, a "Missing Nym" alert is issued, | either to all of the other members of the monitoring service, a separate | alerts list, or a public forum. | | 8. The missing nym owner can declare a false alert by checking in through | the normal fashion. (There's an application for reputation tracking on | nyms who cry wolf). | | Notes: | | a) Nym owners will wish to communicate with the monitoring server | through anonymous remailers, as to avoid revealing their identities to the | monitoring system. | | b) This system makes no distinction between nyms and true names. It can | monitor email addresses of either. This could provide a useful system even | if one is not using a real nym. | | c) The PGP keys supplied to the nym server for purpose of ID verification | should be signing-only keys not used for any other purpose. This will | eliminate justification for a legal or quasi-legal entity to seize the | key. If a member is in the position to have his keys demanded from him, | it will be obvious that this is only being done for one purpose: so that | the public can be tricked into thinking he is alive and free (when | presumably he will not be.) This should aid him in his decision to comply | or not. | | | -MW- | | -- | | [1] Anonymity software developers who publish their products anonymously | are also potentially at risk. RProcess, the author of a popular Windows | remailer client and a Mixmaster-compatible Windows remailer server | suddenly "disappeared" from alt.privacy.anon-server a little over two | years ago. His absence was noticed almost immediately, because he had been | involved in several discussions and a major project at the time of his | disappearance -- but had he been a remailer operator or a developer with | little direct interaction with the public, he may have not been missed. | | [2] Peter Palfrader, Roger Dingledine, Len Sassaman, and Eric Arneson | contributed suggestions to this system. Bill Stewart provided the initial | suggestions. | -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From smiledeb3229 at eudoramail.com Fri Aug 30 08:28:16 2002 From: smiledeb3229 at eudoramail.com (Eugene Walwyn) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 23:28:16 +0800 Subject: cyphernick,For the Ladies Message-ID: <200208301535.g7UFZcgO011447@ak47.algebra.com> ================================= Guaranteed to increase, lift and firm your breasts in 60 days or your money back!! 100% herbal and natural. Proven formula since 1996. Increase your bust by 1 to 3 sizes within 30-60 days and be all natural. Click here: http://202.101.163.34:81/li/wangxd/ Absolutely no side effects! Be more self confident! Be more comfortable in bed! No more need for a lift or support bra! 100% GUARANTEED AND FROM A NAME YOU KNOW AND TRUST! ************************************************** You are receiving this email as a double opt-in subscriber to the Standard Affiliates Mailing List. To remove yourself from all related email lists, just click here: http://64.123.160.91:81/li/gg/unsubscriber.asp?userid=cyphernick at hotmail.com From james2000 at etang.com Fri Aug 30 08:42:37 2002 From: james2000 at etang.com (james2000 at etang.com) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 23:42:37 +0800 Subject: ADV: Harvest lots of E-mail addresses quickly ! Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 5320 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wolf at priori.net Sat Aug 31 00:12:16 2002 From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 00:12:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mitigating Dangers of Compromised Anonymity In-Reply-To: <20020830214818.A70866@lightship.internal.homeport.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Aug 2002, Adam Shostack wrote: > I'd like to suggest that while this may be fun, usability and getting > millions of users to see that remailers are useful to them is a more > useful goal. I agree, although I fail to see how working on this would interfere with that goal in any way. > The anonymity set provided by the current extant systems is too small > to protect anyone against anyone who is willing to kill or disappear > people as part of their attacks against the remailers. I find this disbelievable. I suspect there are many groups which do not have the capability of defeating the remailer system who would still like to see it eliminated. Willingness to kill or disappear people isn't necessarily tied to technical capability, though I agree that entities which can defeat the remailer network without "disappearing" anyone are unlikely to pose a threat to the remops. If our goal is to make remailers harder to defeat, however, beforehand might be the right time to address the problem of "missing remailer operators." (Incidently, I could see this having uses outside the remailer operator world.) > Oh, yeah, and incidentally, if you build this system, the attacker can > simply add a bit of rubber hosing to their remop elimination program. To pry the signing key out of the victim? That's a personal "how much torture can I take" question for the victim to ask himself. He knows he'll be permanently disappeared after coughing up the private key. In many cases also it might be far harder to rubber-hose someone than simply cause an "accident". -MW- From morlockelloi at yahoo.com Sat Aug 31 01:21:13 2002 From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 01:21:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mitigating Dangers of Compromised Anonymity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020831082113.53726.qmail@web40605.mail.yahoo.com> Just wondering ... in a life & death situation (say, blackmailing att. general), what would be the choice of readers of this forum: a) use mixmaster remailer from their home/business/friend. b) use an internet cafe c) use an open wireless AP b and c assume, of course, one-time use of a throwaway e-mail acct. c) makes most sense to me, provided that you fake your radio card's MAC and do it while walking by, with folded laptop in a bag running a script. ===== end (of original message) Y-a*h*o-o (yes, they scan for this) spam follows: Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com From profrv at nex.net.au Fri Aug 30 08:56:42 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 01:56:42 +1000 Subject: The US Empire-its almost over now. Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020831015553.009f53e0@mail.nex.net.au> "This is a profoundly disturbing turn of events. Mr. Bush is protested wherever he goes these days, and the crowds which attend them are growing. These are not black-clad anarchists kicking in windows, however. The woman who was attacked by the police looked as ordinary as any small-town librarian, and anarchists are smart enough to leave their children at home if there is a riot in the offing." > "We Are Not The Enemy!" - The Battle of Portland > by William Rivers Pitt > t r u t h o u t | Report > > Saturday, 24 August, 2002 > > The image is chilling. A middle-aged woman, plainly dressed, with a > puff of auburn hair, is clutched in a hammer-lock by a Portland > police officer dressed in full riot gear. His riot baton is jammed > high under her chin. Around her, three more armor-clad police > officers swarm in, face-masks down. The woman's face is contorted in > terror. In her hand is a sign protesting George W. Bush. > > This was the scene on the streets of Portland, OR, on the evening of > August 22nd as captured by a photographer for the Associated Press. > Thousands of peaceful protesters had descended upon the Hilton Hotel > where Mr. Bush was attending a political fundraiser for Senator > Gordon Smith. They held signs reading, "Drop Bush, not Bombs," and > other similar slogans. Among the protesters were pregnant women, > parents with infants and small children, elderly citizens, and > citizens in wheelchairs > > According to a report by CBS News, the protest became unruly when > some of the fundraiser attendees were "jostled" as they moved through > the crowd towards the entrance to the hotel. At that point, the riot > police swarmed in, swinging clubs and dousing the crowd with pepper > spray. Rubber bullets were also fired into the crowd, and snipers > were seen on the roofs surrounding the scene. The protesters > responded by hammering on the hoods of police cars and screaming, "We > are not the enemy!" > > A man named Randy, who attended the protest, reports the sequence of > events as follows: > > "I was between 5th and 6th on the sidewalk. Maybe the ones in front > were warned to move, but I didn't hear any warning. It had been a > peaceful protest. Suddenly the police came forward spraying pepper > spray. A man nearby with an infant in a backpack got hit real good. > The baby's face was so red I thought it had quit breathing. From the > other direction came cop cars through the crowd and rubber bullets > were fired at those closest to the cars. I kept retreating but the > cops kept spraying. Lots of people were sprayed, including the > cameraman from Channel 2 KATU." > > Other eyewitness accounts from the streets of Portland similarly > describe what appears to have been a terrifyingly violent response > from the police to a peaceful protest by assembled American citizens. > > This is a profoundly disturbing turn of events. Mr. Bush is protested > wherever he goes these days, and the crowds which attend them are > growing. These are not black-clad anarchists kicking in windows, > however. The woman who was attacked by the police looked as ordinary > as any small-town librarian, and anarchists are smart enough to leave > their children at home if there is a riot in the offing. The streets > of Portland were filled on August 22nd by average American citizens > seeking to inform the President of their disfavor regarding the > manner in which he is governing their country. They were rewarded > with the business end of a billy club, a face-full of pepper spray, > and the jarring impact of a rubber bullet. > > If America needed one more example of the cancer that has been > chewing through the guts of our most basic freedoms since Mr. Bush > assumed office, they can look to Portland. The right to freely > assemble and petition the government for a redress of grievances has > been rescinded at the point of a gun. > > The imperative is clear. Such violence by the authorities cannot go > unchallenged. The next time Mr. Bush appears in public, there must be > even more concerned Americans to greet him. They must face the baton > and the pepper spray, they must stare into the shielded faces of the > police, and they must stand in non-violent disobedience of the idea > that they are not allowed to be there. The men and women who faced > the brunt of police fury in Portland are to be lauded as American > patriots, and their actions must be duplicated by us all. The groups > which organized this protest, and the ones to come, deserve our > praise. > > The media, which spent much of the evening reporting that only a few > hundred protesters were in attendance, must be browbeaten into > reporting the facts from both sides - from the police, who reportedly > detained people like the woman in the picture "for their own safety," > and from the protesters who took a savage beating for daring to stand > against Mr. Bush. If the battle of Portland is allowed to cast even > more fear into the hearts and minds of Americans, we have lost yet > another swath of freedoms. Stand and be counted if you can. > > The whole world is watching. From mv at cdc.gov Sat Aug 31 10:24:33 2002 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 10:24:33 -0700 Subject: Mitigating Dangers of Compromised Anonymity Message-ID: <3D70FBD1.B28C2D80@cdc.gov> At 01:21 AM 8/31/02 -0700, Morlock Elloi wrote: >Just wondering ... in a life & death situation (say, blackmailing att. >general), what would be the choice of readers of this forum: > > >a) use mixmaster remailer from their home/business/friend. Like that one-degree of separation is comforting... >b) use an internet cafe Your face might be recognized later. Willing to shave for the transmission and then go on vacation to regrow the mane? >c) use an open wireless AP Bingo. Use a rented car. Or better, stolen :-) > >b and c assume, of course, one-time use of a throwaway e-mail acct. Why bother even establishing one? Simply use a fake name and domain that your SMTP server takes. Works for me :-) [1] though I don't get personal replies -not something you want anyway for your task. [1] Though header-stripping lne.com can trace me ---real anonymity would require b) or c) or a trusted a) (only without my end being observed before the fact). >c) makes most sense to me, provided that you fake your radio card's MAC and do >it while walking by, with folded laptop in a bag running a script. Or treat your fixed-MAC card as a one-time-use disposable and torch the thing. Along with the laptop, probably. Separately. From AM at earthlink.com Sat Aug 31 11:12:37 2002 From: AM at earthlink.com (Andrea Macdonald) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 11:12:37 Subject: Create a Paycheck with your computer Message-ID: <200208310109.g7V19fJ35280@locust.minder.net> Hello You get emails every day, offering to show you how to make money. Most of these emails are from people who are NOT making any money. And they expect you to listen to them? Enough. If you want to make money with your computer, then you should hook up with a group that is actually DOING it. We are making a large, continuing income every month. What's more - we will show YOU how to do the same thing. This business is done completely by internet and email, and you can even join for free to check it out first. If you can send an email, you can do this. No special "skills" are required. How much are we making? Anywhere from $2000 to $9000 per month. We are real people, and most of us work at this business part-time. But keep in mind, we do WORK at it - I am not going to insult your intelligence by saying you can sign up, do no work, and rake in the cash. That kind of job does not exist. But if you are willing to put in 10-12 hours per week, this might be just the thing you are looking for. This is not income that is determined by luck, or work that is done FOR you - it is all based on your effort. But, as I said, there are no special skills required. And this income is RESIDUAL - meaning that it continues each month (and it tends to increase each month also). Interested? I invite you to find out more. You can get in as a free member, at no cost, and no obligation to continue if you decide it is not for you. We are just looking for people who still have that "burning desire" to find an opportunity that will reward them incredibly well, if they work at it. To grab a FREE ID#, simply reply to: Get_info at winningteam.com and in the body of the email, write this phrase: "Grab me a free membership!" Be sure to include your: 1. First name 2. Last name 3. Email address (if different from above) We will confirm your position and send you a special report as soon as possible, and also Your free Member Number. That's all there's to it. We'll then send you info, and you can make up your own mind. Looking forward to hearing from you! Sincerely, Andrea Macdonald P.S. After having several negative experiences with network marketing companies I had pretty much given up on them. This is different - there is value, integrity, and a REAL opportunity to have your own home-based business... and finally make real money on the internet. Don't pass this up..you can sign up and test-drive the program for FREE. All you need to do is get your free membership. Unsubscribing: Send a blank email to: please_remove at myownemail.com with "Remove" in the subject line. From redboath at cheerful.com Sat Aug 31 12:11:41 2002 From: redboath at cheerful.com (BULAWA MULETE) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 12:11:41 Subject: assistnce is needed Message-ID: <200208311011.g7VABcR4017841@ak47.algebra.com> ATTN: I am Bulawa Mulete JR. the son of Mr. STEVE MBEKI MULETE from Zimbabwe. I am sorry this mail Will surprise you, though we do not know, my mother Mrs. Clara Got your contact through the International Chamber of Commerce. Due to the current war against white farmers in Zimbabwe and the support of President Robert Mugabe to Claim all white owned farms in our country to gain Favor for re-election. All white farmers were asked to Surrender their farms to the government for Re-distribution and infact to his political party Members and my father though black was the treasury of the farmers association and a strong member of an Opposition party that did not support the president Idea. He then ordered his party members and the police Under his pay row to invade my father's farm and burn Down everything in the farm. They killed my Father and took away a lot of items from his farm. After the death of my father, our local pastor and a Close friend of my father handed us over will Documents with instructions from my father that we Should leave Zimbabwe incase anything happen to him. The will Documents has a certificate of deposit, confirming a deposit Kept in custody for us in a security company unknown To the company that the content is money hence it was deposited as Personal belongings and ensure that we do not remain here as we could Easily be found by his enemies. The total amount is US$21.5M.We are therefore soliciting for Your assistance to help us move the fund out of Zimbabwe, as our fate and future is far from reality, hence this mail to you. The president's present ban of International Press into Zimbabwe and the drop from office of the Finance Minister to avoid giving white farmers fund Transfer Clearance above US$1M is just a few of the Unthinkable things he is committing in my Country. I have tried to reach my father's close friend Mr. John Casahans from Australia also a farmer who was Leaving in Zimbabwe with us but left with his family Late last year following this ugly development to no Avail. Should you be interested to help us, contact me Immediately via email for easy communication and I Will furnish you with the time frame and modalities of the transaction. We have concluded a wonderful plan of Caring out the transfer within two weeks. Please note that This transaction is100% confidential and risk free and will Not endanger you or us in any way. We have resolved to give you 20% Of the total sum upon confirmation of the fund in any Account of your choice were the incident of taxation Will not take much tool on the money and we look Forward to coming over to your country to invest our Share and settle there. I will a private Phone so that our conversation can be 100% confidential. NOTE: REPLY TO bulawa2000 at netscape.net God bless you indeed as you help . Mr. BULAWA MULETE From eugen at leitl.org Sat Aug 31 03:39:37 2002 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 12:39:37 +0200 (CEST) Subject: YAPC::Europe::Munich - Last call for participation (fwd) Message-ID: Anyone is going? ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 21:12:57 +0200 From: Richard.Foley at t-online.de To: YAPC Orga Cc: yapc-plan at yapc.org, yapc-europe at lists.dircon.co.uk Newsgroups: de.comp.lang.perl.misc, it.comp.lang.perl, fr.comp.lang.perl Subject: YAPC::Europe::Munich - Last call for participation Last call For Participation YAPC::Europe::2002 - September 18-20 http://www.yapc.org/Europe/2002/registration.html Conference fee is set at 89 Euros. YAPC is an inexpensive 3-day grassroots perl conference, where users, and developers, can mingle, listen, talk, and exchange ideas about the perl programming language. This year's conference will be held in Munich, capital city of Bavaria, (as near to the continental centre of Europe as you can get, without spotting the sea), Germany. There will be a mixture of short and long tutorials and talks, covering a wide variety of subjects. This year's theme is 'The Science of Perl', which means that we talk about science as well as everything else :-) A huge variety of speakers and subjects on our favourite language is gathering in Munich in 2002: The author of perl, Larry Wall, is slated to attend his first European YAPC, Damian Conway, perl evangelist and speaker par-excellence, will also be participating, among many other leading perl personalities and contributors. We look forward to seeing you there too! -- Ciao Richard Foley Ciao - shorter than AufWiederSehen! YAPC::Europe::2002 http://www.yapc.org/Europe/ 18-20 Sept. From quitanels at mail.com Sat Aug 31 13:36:55 2002 From: quitanels at mail.com (NELSON MESQUITA) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 13:36:55 Subject: mutual business Message-ID: <200208311137.g7VBaqR4024453@ak47.algebra.com> STRICTLY CONFIDENTIAL & URGENT. I am Mr, NELSON MESQUITA a native of Cape Town in South Africa and I am an Executive Accountant with the South Africa DEPARTMENT OF MINERAL RESOURCES AND ENERGY First and foremost, I apologized using this medium to reach you for a transaction/business of this magnitude, but this is due to Confidentiality and prompt access reposed on this medium. I have decided to seek a confidential co-operation with you in the execution of the deal described Hereunder for the benefit of all parties and hope you will keep it as a top secret because of the nature of this transaction. Within the Department of Mining & Natural Resources where I work as an Executive Accountant and with the cooperation of four other top officials, we have in our possession as overdue payment bills totaling Twenty - One Million, Five Hundred Thousand U. S. Dollars ($16,500,000.) which we want to transfer abroad with the assistance and cooperation of a foreign company/individual to receive the said fund on our behalf or a reliable foreign non-company account to receive such funds. More so, we are handicapped in the circumstances, as the South Africa Civil Service Code of Conduct does not allow us to operate offshore account hence your importance in the whole transaction. This amount $16.5m represents the balance of the total contract value executed on behalf of my Department by a foreign contracting firm, which we the officials over-invoiced deliberately. Though the actual contract cost have been paid to the original contractor, leaving the balance in the Tune of the said amount which we have in principles gotten approval to remit by Key tested Telegraphic Transfer (K.T.T) to any foreign bank account you will provide by filing in an application through the Justice Ministry here in South Africa for the transfer of rights and privileges of the former contractor to you. I have the authority of my partners involved to propose that should you be willing to assist us in the transaction, your share of the sum will be 25% of the $16.5 million, 70% for us and 5% for taxation and miscellaneous expenses. The business itself is 100% safe, on your part provided you treat it with utmost secrecy and confidentiality. Also your area of specialization is not a hindrance to the successful execution of this transaction. I have reposed my confidence in you and hope that you will not disappoint me. Endeavor to contact me immediately my e-mail address whether or not you are interested in this deal. If you are not, it will enable me scout for another foreign partner to carry out this deal I want to assure you that my partners and myself are in a position to make the payment of this claim possible provided you can give us a very strong Assurance and guarantee that our share will be secured and please remember to treat this matter as very confidential matter, because we will not comprehend with any form of exposure as we are still in active Government Service and remember once again that time is of the essence in this business. I wait in anticipation of your fullest co-operation. NOTE: YOUR RESPONSE SHOULD BE SENT TO Yours faithfully, NELSON MESQUITA. From profrv at nex.net.au Fri Aug 30 20:44:13 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 13:44:13 +1000 Subject: Spectacles of themselves Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020831134325.00a21170@mail.nex.net.au> REIMBURSEMENT FOR PURCHASE OF SPECTACLES FOR COMPUTER USE Following discussions over 2000 and 2001 new guidelines have come into operation for eyesight screening and optical correction for members who use screen-based equipment ("SBE"). Under the new guidelines any member who: operates SBE for an aggregate of two hours or more, inclusive of rest breaks, in any day or shift on a regular basis (more than 3 days per week); and / or has experienced or is experiencing visual discomfort as a result of using SBE; and / or works in critical areas; and / or may be required to use SBE intensively but not every day has the option of eyesight screening tests by a qualified Optometrist. If members want their eyes tested they should advise the Victoria Police Force ("the Force") first. They may take the tests: when they commence in the position which requires the use of SBE; and every two years thereafter; or where physical symptoms identified by the employee may indicate that a problem may exist. The Force will reimburse the cost of eyesight screening tests to a maximum or $23.40 and reimburse the cost of a full eye examination to a maximum of $46.55 if the screening test reveals a problem related to SBE use. Where the eyesight tests have revealed that an employee has suffered an eye problem specifically related to the use of SBE, and the member needs corrective eyewear the Force will reimburse members a maximum of $125 for the purchase of glasses. Reimbursement costs are to be reviewed annually. PAUL MULLETT Secretary From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Sat Aug 31 12:14:06 2002 From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 14:14:06 -0500 Subject: RIAA's Final Solution Message-ID: <20020831191406.GC3000@cybershamanix.com> http://www.ibiblio.org/Dave/Dr-Fun/html/Dr-Fun/df200201/df20020107.jpg -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Sat Aug 31 15:18:08 2002 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 15:18:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Terror Suspect" Appears in Court Message-ID: <200208312218.g7VMI8I13326@artifact.psychedelic.net> After the Jim Bell and Carl Johnson festivities, I would imagine most readers of this list have an above average ability to recognize bovine effluent in the rantings of federal prosecutors, whose Chicken Little bellowings about conspiracies and threats to public safety often bear little resemblence to actual events. "Illegally discharging firearms during a conspiracy" The mind boggles. Conspiracy is to defendants rights what goose droppings are to traction on grass. ----- Ujaama lashes out at prosecutors in public hearing Man accused of aiding al-Qaida to be transferred to Seattle jail Saturday, August 31, 2002 By M.E. SPRENGELMEYER SCRIPPS HOWARD NEWS SERVICE ALEXANDRIA, Va. -- Terror suspect James Ujaama unleashed an angry outburst in federal court yesterday during his first public court appearance since being charged with conspiracy and weapons counts. After weeks of being held in secret as a "material witness," the former Seattle man wasted no time showing his disdain for Justice Department prosecutors who filed the case Wednesday in Seattle. "These guys have lied -- they've always lied," Ujaama said during a terse exchange cut short by Magistrate Judge Barry Poretz. During the 10-minute court appearance, a prosecutor read the charges against Ujaama, then Poretz ordered the U.S. Marshal's Service to transfer him from a Virginia jail to Seattle. He is expected to be moved by Monday or Tuesday, although defense attorney Greg Stambaugh said Ujaama would like to return to a jail in Seattle even earlier if possible. Ujaama stood quietly through most of the proceedings. He appeared gaunt and unshaven, wearing a green jumpsuit marked "PRISONER" on the back. After the routine business was done, Stambaugh complained to the judge that a courthouse guard referred to Ujaama as "bin Laden boy," a reference to al-Qaida terrorist leader Osama bin Laden. Before being placed in isolation Thursday, Ujaama had been held among other prisoners in the general population, and such a label could cause Ujaama problems, Stambaugh said. "Clearly, everybody is entitled to respect in this court," Poretz said. Assistant U.S. Attorney Gordon Kromberg questioned whether the name-calling actually happened, and alluded to Ujaama's repeated complaints about his treatment in statements released through his attorney and a family spokesperson. "His client has repeatedly lied to the public before to manipulate the public," Kromberg said. "It's not beyond the realm of possibility he's lying again to manipulate the public." That drew Ujaama's ire, and he asked the judge for permission to respond. Poretz told him to talk to his attorney first, and then Ujaama spoke loudly and angrily. "These guys have lied -- they've always lied," Ujaama said. "For them to refer to me as a liar when they've leaked material to the press ...." Poretz interrupted, suggesting he speak through his attorney. Ujaama remained quiet. Outside the courtroom later, Stambaugh read a brief statement in which Ujaama, 36, repeated his criticism of prosecutors: "They literally kidnapped me using a material witness warrant. This is further proof of what I've been saying all along: They are criminals posing as 'statesmen.'" Ujaama, who was arrested in Denver on July 22, is accused of providing "training, facilities, computer services, safe houses and personnel" to al-Qaida in a conspiracy to "destroy property and murder and maim persons located outside the United States." He also is accused of illegally discharging firearms as part of a conspiracy, when he allegedly was scouting a training area for terrorists at a property in Bly, Ore. Kromberg said Ujaama could face up to life in prison for the conspiracy charge, although Stambaugh said that would not be consistent with the wording of the indictment. During yesterday's appearance, Ujaama waived a routine identification hearing, where prosecutors must show that the person named in the indictment is the same as the person in custody. The indictment refers to him by his birth name, James Ernest Thompson; the name he took as a Muslim, Earnest James Ujaama; and aliases Bilal Ahmed, Abu Samayya and Abdul Qaadir. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From profrv at nex.net.au Fri Aug 30 22:31:11 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 15:31:11 +1000 Subject: Police that carry Knives.-Basque crackdown. Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020831150320.009ec2e0@mail.nex.net.au> Christine Nixon has foreshadowed random drug and alcohol testing for the members of drug squad A,(or B,one or the other.)Will she also order search's for concealed weapons? And run the sniffer dogs over them? Inquiring minds want to know. http://www.melbourne.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=32591&group=webcast Basque Clampdown Spanish Government Outlaws Basque Political Party A Spanish Judge has issued an order to suspend Batasuna, a Basque left separtist party, on the basis that it is part of ETA (which stands for Basque Fatherland and Freedom). ETA is an armed group struggling for an independent of the Basque Country. Judge Garzon has ordered the closing of all oficial buildings from Batasuna, Batasuna is no longer allowed to organize or to participate in a political event. Garzon also asks for Batasuna's website to be shutdown. This could be the first case of an internet site to be closed by spanish administration. Garzon's decision is based on article 129 from Spanish Penal code. An article specially designed for private associations but it does not mention for political parties. Batasuna has polled with around 10% of the votes representing nearly 48,000 voters in Navarra and a bit more than 143,000 in the Basque Autonomous Region. Batasuna was also present in the northern Basque Country under french administration. At the same time the Spanish Parliament has voted a law to make Batasuna illegal in case it keeps quiet after ETA practices violence. This measure is been critisized by spanish lawyers as they find a breach on basic fondamental rights and the Spanish Constitution. Polls show a split between Spanish and basque public opinion. While Spanish public opinion is in vast majority in support of this law a majority of Basques oppose this law. This means that a law will be applied in the Basque country on the basis that spanish majority prevails over the Basque one. The three parties governing Basque autonomous region (PNV, EA and IU, moderate nationalists and United Left -former communist party-) have shown their opposition to the law. From, monday, 26th of august, police are closing different offices and buildings of Batasuna violent clashes between Batasuna supporters and the national police or the basque autonomous police have broken out. Some offices belonging to the Basque Prisoners Relatives' Association and the association against torture were shut down as well. [ Euskal Herria Indymedia | Batasuna | International Coverage ] From profrv at nex.net.au Fri Aug 30 23:00:29 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 16:00:29 +1000 Subject: Cyber Harassment of Dissidents Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020831155822.009f0440@mail.nex.net.au> http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=200859&group=webcast Lots of geek shite,enjoy! Meantime in meatspace... CHIAPAS.Two campesinos from EZLN support bases were assassinated by paramilitary groups in the morning of August 25 in ranchería Amaytik at the independent municipality Olga Isabel. The newspaper La Jornada has reported on the previously announced assassination of two Zapatistas in the Ricardo Flores Magón Autonomous Municipality. The 'official' version, released on August 26 by the State Prosecutor's Office, and widely refuted by residents of the area, is that it was due to an infamous "family" dispute http://www.indymedia.org/index.php3?newswire=open From profrv at nex.net.au Fri Aug 30 23:50:30 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 16:50:30 +1000 Subject: Jeff Gordons getting paranoid. Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020831164800.009f3ec0@mail.nex.net.au> Well wouldn't you? http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13583-2002Aug29.html Credit cards provide easy access to offshore funds and accounts in tax haven countries that allow income to be hidden. Josh's ear is in the mail. "Who wants to participate to help form what will be the LAST revolution on earth, the one that'll take down ALL the governments? James Dalton Bell." From profrv at nex.net.au Sat Aug 31 00:01:12 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 17:01:12 +1000 Subject: Yes to a libertarian Europe from below. Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020831165728.009f3c50@mail.nex.net.au> Synchronicity in the library with a hammer. "Cell member Marwan Al-Shehhi, who investigators believe piloted the second airliner to strike the trade center, had a conversation in April or May 2000 with a female librarian in which he mentioned the trade center as a target, Nehm said. "There will be thousands of dead," Al-Shehhi, originally from the United Arab Emirates, told the librarian, according to Nehm. "You will all think of me." The librarian later came forward as a witness, according to the federal prosecutor's office, which declined to identify her or say when she provided the information." Libertarian Europe an Oxymongo? No! No to capitalist globalisation No to militarism No to Fortress Europe No to the extension of police powers Yes to a libertarian Europe from below FROM http://www.ainfos.ca/ainfos12806.html ________________________________________________ > From: "chekovfeeney" Libertarians / anarchists against Nice Founding meeting for National Campaign Anarchist and libertarian groups and individuals from all across Ireland are meeting in Dublin on Saturday 7th September to found a campaign against the Nice Treaty. This follows on from local discussion that have already taken place in Dublin, at Ecotopia, the anarchist summer camps etc and on the Irish anarchism list. At this stage it looks like the campaign will include the WSM, ASF, AF, Cork Anarchist Alliance and individuals from RTS, Gluseacht and other groups and individuals involved in the Grassroots Gatherings. Discussions to date indicate that the probable basis of the campaign will be on the following points, although the exact wording etc is to be worked out. No to capitalist globalisation No to militarism No to Fortress Europe No to the extension of police powers Yes to a libertarian Europe from below Up to now the right have made most of the running with the No vote. We see a need for a libertarian No campaign that argues for a No vote on a libertarian basis. This is not just about defeating the referendum it is also about making the defeat a progressive one rather then one based on the sort of racist rhetoric that so far has dominated the debate. So we strongly encourage all anarchists and libertarians in Ireland, north and south, to attend this meeting. It will take place at 14.30 hours in the Teachers Club, 35, Parnell Square, Dublin on Saturday 7th September. We don't want a campaign where some group turns up at the first meeting with the campaign posters and leaflets already printed out. So please bring along draft posters and ideas for the campaign. A draft leaflet for discussion will be prepared on the Irish Anarchism list in the week before the meeting on the basis of drafts emailed to that list. So if you want to take part in that process be sure to join Irish Anarchism. This draft will then be amended at the meeting itself. We hope to print and distribute tens of thousands of leaflets in the run up to the referendum, again the number that we do will depend on your involvement. For more details or to add items to the agenda or if you can't make the meeting but want to receive any material produced please contact Chekov at chekovfeeney at yahoo.com or ring/SMS us at 087 7939931. To take part in the ongoing discussion about the anarchist campaign email irishanarchism-subscribe at yahoogroups.com The evening after the meeting there will be a fundraiser for Reclaim the Streets. On Sunday there will be an RTS creativity session to prepare banners etc for the party on the 22nd so if you are travelling from outside Dublin you can make a weekend out of it. Various anarchists have already begun working on the referendum, and already there are some web pages up and some more in preparation. This includes the page at http://struggle.ws/about/nice.html which now includes some detailed briefing documents on the Nice treaty as well as links to the various official documents and other relevant articles. If you know of material that should be linked from that page or other Irish libertarian pages on Nice please email details of them to revolt at newmail.net. Again the founding meeting will be at 14.30 hours in the Teachers Club, 35, Parnell Square, Dublin on Saturday 7th September. Make sure YOU are there! -- -------- http://anarchism.ws New global anarchist index http://www.struggle.ws 3000 + pages on anarchism, Ireland, Zapatistas revolutionary history and struggles around globalisation From profrv at nex.net.au Sat Aug 31 00:04:59 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 17:04:59 +1000 Subject: The most extreme measures. Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020831170202.009f39e0@mail.nex.net.au> Moments after the Sept. 11 attacks, a U.S. air defense commander considered sending pilots in unarmed Air Force fighter jets on suicide missions to ram any other hijacked planes. No such missions were ordered, nor did the commander, Air Force Col. Robert Marr Jr., ask his superiors in the North American Aerospace Defense Command for authority to issue such orders. "It was a thought that went through his mind," said Marr's spokeswoman, Lt. Col. Kacey Blaney. Marr said yesterday that the idea of ramming any additional hijacked airliners -- beyond the three that hit the World Trade Center and Pentagon and the one that crashed in Pennsylvania -- came up as he and aides huddled in their command center in Rome, N.Y., to consider the unprecedented crisis that was unfolding. At that moment, it was unclear how many hijackings would occur, and Marr knew he had only four armed fighter jets available in his area of responsibility, called the Northeast Air Defense Sector, stretching from Minnesota to Maine to Virginia. "In the heat of the moment, all suggestions were considered, but no decision was made to employ unarmed fighters" as missiles, Marr said in a statement provided by Blaney. The fact that the United States had only a small number of armed fighter jets on air defense duty on Sept. 11 reflects that in the aftermath of the Cold War, aerial attacks were considered a minimal threat. For months after Sept. 11, combat air patrols were flown continually over Washington and New York. Such patrols are now periodic, and fighter jets are on short-notice alert at bases across the country. Marr first disclosed that he had considered this last-ditch tactic in an interview with the British Broadcasting Corp., which is preparing to broadcast a documentary on the events of Sept. 11. In his statement, Marr said it was his responsibility to consider even the most extreme measures. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A18114-2002Aug30.html Defense of necessity applies to shootdowns,SEE 'Osama at the Hague." Killing civilians by the thousand was good enough for 'give em hell' harry. From profrv at nex.net.au Sat Aug 31 00:14:28 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 17:14:28 +1000 Subject: Echoes of Ari-contra-PROMIS. Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020831170653.009f3250@mail.nex.net.au> http://www.rense.com/general28/iss.htm "...Already under the Iran's former Shah's regime, Israel had strong links with non-Arab government in the form of military and trade alliances such as oil-for-arms arrangements against their common Arab enemy Iraq. Against the backdrop of the 1980-1998 Iran-Iraq war, Israel continued to supply arms to Tehran when Ayatollah Khomeini took power and even after the 1979-1981 hostage crisis at the US embassy there. The most notorious case of the shadowy relations between the two countries was the "Irangate" scandal which broke in 1986 over the secret financing of the anti-Sandinista Contras guerrilla in Nicaragua through arms sales to Iran with Israel acting as an intermediary. http://www.arabia.com/afp/news/mideast/article/english/0,10846,276765,00.html Who Ari? Ben-Menashe, Ari. Profits of War: Inside the Secret U.S.-Israeli Arms Network. New York: Sheridan Square Press, 1992. 394 pages. If this book is even half true, it means that less than ten percent of the Reagan and Bush administration double-dealing was ever revealed to the American public. Ari Ben-Menashe's description of the U.S.-Israeli arms network can only be described as "sensational." If you accept his scenario, it's apparent that an impotent U.S. Congress, once they got a whiff of the dimensions of the problem and considered their options, had no choice but to cover it all up. Some journalists who have verified portions of Ben-Menashe's story have found that his information is excellent. Others just wish he would disappear and are inclined to discredit him, because to accept him is to admit that you've been chasing your tail for ten years and missing it all. With Ben-Menashe, there doesn't seem to be any middle ground. Ben-Menashe was one of six on Israel's top-secret Joint Committee on Israel-Iran Relations, and spent years globe-trotting for them, setting up fronts and transferring millions in cash. In 1980 he saw George Bush in Paris meeting with a high Iranian official, and in 1986 he briefed Bush. In 1981 Robert Gates helped him with his suitcase containing $56 million. Others in this book include Margaret Thatcher's son Mark, Chilean arms dealer Carlos Cardoen, and Paraguay's Alfredo Stroessner, to name a few. http://www.pir.org/sources/TO.html From profrv at nex.net.au Sat Aug 31 00:32:17 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 17:32:17 +1000 Subject: Cheney badly needs killing. Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020831171938.009ef5e0@mail.nex.net.au> "Highly risky and wrong" is one assesment of the groundhogs spittle laced declaration of war.Declaring the US in 'mortal danger' like a cross between JE Hoover and tricky dickie on speed,the veep dished up some rubber platitudes to go with the rubber chicken;he should have remembered that you are what you eat. I trust chicken hawk will be on the next geriatrics menu.Garnish with a little valium. "The monopoly on the decision and action in this question lies with the United Nations," said Edmund Stoiber, conservative candidate for chancellor There seems to be a little mutiny among the 'usual suspects.' The US is resembling nothing so much as a pitiful helpless giant,cyclops has been gored and the sheep are hiding all those escaping argonauts.If he's lucky he may live...for a while. 52 per cent of Labour supporters believe Britain ought not to support any military action against Iraq.Thats even slightly higher down here I believe,a clear majority against,all the way with the USA.Maybe not,"YANKEE go HOME",just yet but it's only been a year so far in the 'war on Terra.' "Using force or threats of force is unhelpful in solving the Iraq issue and will increase regional instability and tensions," Foreign Minister Tang Jiaxuan was quoted as saying in Beijing. Taku Yamasaki, secretary-general of Japan's ruling Liberal Democratic Party, said that Tokyo had a duty as an ally to oppose Washington. "If the U.S. attacks alone it will produce distrust of the United States throughout the world," Yamasaki said. "As an ally, we should oppose this." India, a founding member of the Non-Aligned Movement, said its opposition to a war on Iraq had not wavered. "There is a consistency in our policy, and it is not going to change in the next few days or weeks," a foreign ministry official said. In the Middle East, U.S. foes, or nations branded by Washington as sponsors of international terrorism, denounced American threats against Iraq in predictably harsher terms. Syrian Prime Minister Mohammed Mustafa Mero said his country, along with Iraq and all Arabs, would view any U.S. strike as part of "policies that seek more U.S. hegemony and to inflict harm not just on the people of Iraq but the Arab nation as a whole," Syria's state media reported. Iran, like Iraq branded by Bush as a member (with North Korea) of an "axis of evil," reiterated its opposition to any U.S. attack on Iraq. Iranian President Mohammad Khatami urged an "arrogant" Washington to drop its hostility and improve ties with Iran, saying his country would defend itself if it too came under threat. "We hope Iraq will not be attacked, and if this occurs we hope that (America) will not try its luck by attacking other countries and realize that American public opinion will not tolerate this policy for very long," Khatami said. A global Maniac cop running around starting wars will not be long for this world,pr From profrv at nex.net.au Sat Aug 31 00:36:59 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 17:36:59 +1000 Subject: Shrub the jesus freak. Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020831173323.009f2ec0@mail.nex.net.au> Interview with playwright Harold Pinter - 'I think that when you look at a man like our prime minister - who I gather is a very sincere and serious Christian - he, we understand at the moment, is considering another bombing of Iraq, which would be an act of premeditated murder because if you bomb Iraq, you're not just going to kill Saddam Hussein. In fact, you won't do that anyway; he has his resources. What you will do, as usual, is kill thousands of totally innocent people. How Tony Blair can work that one out morally himself is actually beyond me. I just wish he would decide if he was a Christian or he wasn't a Christian' ( Guardian ) Is shrub a christian? Inquiring minds etc... Chief executives should be screened to weed out psychopaths: researcher Coverage of a recent keynote presentation by psychopathy expert Robert Hare, during which he suggested that corporate leaders should be screened for psychopathic behaviour disorders ( CP via The Record ) See also this blog entry from earlier this month AT http://www.hullocentral.demon.co.uk/site/anfin.htm From profrv at nex.net.au Sat Aug 31 00:40:43 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 17:40:43 +1000 Subject: Northwoods Homeland Security. Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020831173837.009f8e50@mail.nex.net.au> Bush wrong to use pretext as excuse to invade Iraq By James Bamford As the Bush administration raises prospects of war with Iraq, USA TODAY asked experts to explore critical military, diplomatic and political factors involved and the possible consequences. This is part of that occasional series. Vice President Cheney's speech this week showed that the administration has no new evidence to support its claim that Iraq poses an immediate threat to the United States. Instead, Cheney used standard, vague terms: "no doubt" Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction or will acquire nuclear weapons "fairly soon." The administration also points to the possible presence of fleeing al-Qaeda members in northern Iraq, perhaps of senior rank. But it has difficulty tying them directly to Saddam because the area is largely under the control of Kurdish opposition leader Jallal Tallabani, who has worked with the Bush administration against Saddam. Without convincing evidence of imminent danger, administration officials have been dusting off old cases that hint at Iraqi plots and conspiracies, but are unsupported by facts. Many worry that such incidents will be exploited as pretexts to justify pre-emptive strikes. The Navy, for instance, is considering changing the status of a pilot shot down over Iraq during the Gulf War from missing in action to captured. But, given no known physical evidence to support that possibility nor any new facts, some see this as one more cynical political pretext for invasion. Bush administration officials also have been reviving the old story that Sept. 11 hijacker Mohamed Atta met in the Czech Republic capital of Prague with an Iraqi agent five months before the attacks — a possible link between Iraq and al-Qaeda. An unnamed senior administration official told the Los Angeles Times that evidence of such a meeting "holds up." A federal law enforcement official, the Times reported, said the FBI has been reviewing Atta's records with "renewed vigor" for a possible link to Iraq. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld recently added at a news conference that Iraq "had a relationship" with al-Qaeda. But senior U.S. intelligence officials have discounted the meeting. "We ran down literally hundreds of thousands of leads and checked every record we could get our hands on," said FBI Director Robert Mueller. The records revealed that Atta was in Virginia Beach during the time he supposedly met the Iraqi in Prague. While the administration is under increasing pressure to make its case for invasion, using as pretexts supposed instances such as these carries grave dangers. The past holds lessons about pretext and making the right — and wrong — decisions. One of the most outrageous uses of pretext took place during the Kennedy administration after the failed Bay of Pigs operation, in which the CIA wrongly underestimated the amount of internal support for Fidel Castro. With the CIA out of the picture, the Joint Chiefs of Staff saw a grand opportunity for the military to launch an all-out war against Cuba. But they needed a pretext. The answer was Operation Northwoods: The Joint Chiefs would secretly launch a war of terror on the U.S. public — then blame it on Castro. According to long-hidden top-secret documents I obtained from the National Archives, Operation Northwoods called for innocent people to be shot on U.S. streets; for boats carrying refugees fleeing Cuba to be sunk; for waves of terrorism in Washington, Miami and elsewhere. Using phony evidence to blame Castro, the Joint Chiefs would get their needed pretext. Each member of the Joint Chiefs signed off on the plan. Then the chairman hand-carried it to Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara — who promptly rejected it. Two years later, U.S. generals were looking for another pretext to go to war, this time in Vietnam. In the summer of 1964, President Lyndon Johnson sought to escalate U.S. involvement in Vietnam's civil war. The decision was made to launch hit-and-run attacks against coastal North Vietnamese targets while a slow-moving destroyer, the USS Maddox, sat just off the shore in international waters. Knowing the North Vietnamese would associate the nearby warship with the attacks, the Pentagon likely hoped to provoke a retaliatory strike against the vessel — the perfect pretext for a declaration of war. Indeed, North Vietnamese patrol boats fired torpedoes at the ship — but missed. The Maddox sailed safely away. McNamara ordered the largely useless coastal attacks to continue and sent the ship back to its original dangerous position. Two nights after the first attack, the USS C. Turner Joy, escorting the Maddox, sent messages to Washington indicating the ship was under attack. It was later found that no such attack took place; the messages were blamed on nervous crewmembers and radar "ghost images." But it was the excuse Johnson and McNamara sought. They pressed Congress for a declaration of war. Captured by the moment's hysteria, Congress passed the Gulf of Tonkin resolution. An incident that never took place became the pretext for expanding a war that would claim the lives of more than 50,000 Americans as well as a million-plus Vietnamese. "Many of the people who were associated with the war were looking for any excuse to initiate bombing," recalled George Ball, at the time a State undersecretary. "The sending of a destroyer up the Tonkin Gulf was primarily for provocation. ... There was a feeling that if the destroyer got into some trouble, that it would provide the provocation we needed." History is layered with the bodies of those who have died when someone mistakes zealotry for patriotism and pretext for truth. If the Bush administration does embark on a bloody war in the Middle East, it should be based on certainty, not pretext. James Bamford, author of Body of Secrets: Anatomy of the Ultra-Secret National Security Agency, is a member of USA TODAY's board of contributors. http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/2002-08-29-usat-opin-bamford_x.htm Collapse of Govts cant be far off with the access to knowledge we all have now,its soft APster! From abuse at bizmailsrvcs.net Sat Aug 31 15:56:31 2002 From: abuse at bizmailsrvcs.net (abuse at bizmailsrvcs.net) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 17:56:31 -0500 Subject: Virus Alert Message-ID: <200208312256.RAA07436@oe-iscan2pub.managedmail.com> We have detected a virus (WORM_KLEZ.H) in your mail traffic sent from billy at auto-csi.com in the file Gipg.exe on 08/31/2002 17:56:23. We took the action delete. If you have questions regarding files or updating/installing Anti-virus protection on your PC, please contact your e-mail administrator or help desk. From profrv at nex.net.au Sat Aug 31 01:28:27 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 18:28:27 +1000 Subject: Mutant Rat? Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020831182259.00a24310@mail.nex.net.au> Fallout deaths By NICK RICHARDSON 31aug02 RADIOACTIVE fallout from the British nuclear tests in the 1950s might be linked to an alarming rise in infant deaths in some Victorian towns.Fallout deaths By NICK RICHARDSON 31aug02 RADIOACTIVE fallout from the British nuclear tests in the 1950s might be linked to an alarming rise in infant deaths in some Victorian towns. Approaching the 50th anniversary of the first nuclear explosion on October 3, 1952, at the Monte Bello Islands off the West Australian coast, research reveals several towns in Victoria, NSW and Queensland recorded higher-than-usual infant death rates in the late 1950s. Each of the 12 tests conducted in and around Australia from 1952-57 generated a nuclear cloud. In some areas, the nuclear plume met rain clouds, forming a potentially lethal solution. According to official radioactivity monitoring stations at the time, Sale, Echuca, Hamilton, Mildura, Nhill, Swan Hill and Warrnambool were exposed to some radiation - especially after the final bomb at Maralinga in October 1957. Australian and British authorities maintained at the time the exposure was minimal and there was no threat. But in the past 50 years, evidence has emerged there is no safe level of radiation exposure. A survey of infant mortality rates in the Victorian towns reveals a circumstantial link between the nuclear rain and a rise in deaths. Sixteen children aged up to two died in Mildura in 1958. In 1959, the number was 20, before dropping to 13 the next year. Warrnambool had a similar pattern. The number of infant deaths in 1958 was 27. It increased to 34 in 1959, then dropped to 16 in 1960. Mt Isa in Queensland and Tamworth and Armidale in New South Wales mirror the Victorian results. The initial alarm about fallout was raised by Australian scientist Hedley Marston in 1957. Mr Marston found a radioactive cloud from the third nuclear test passed over Adelaide and left debris in the city's northern suburbs. His research on sheep and cattle, which had eaten fallout-tainted pasture, indicated the presence of a lethal nuclear by-product, strontium 90. Approaching the 50th anniversary of the first nuclear explosion on October 3, 1952, at the Monte Bello Islands off the West Australian coast, research reveals several towns in Victoria, NSW and Queensland recorded higher-than-usual infant death rates in the late 1950s. Each of the 12 tests conducted in and around Australia from 1952-57 generated a nuclear cloud. In some areas, the nuclear plume met rain clouds, forming a potentially lethal solution. According to official radioactivity monitoring stations at the time, Sale, Echuca, Hamilton, Mildura, Nhill, Swan Hill and Warrnambool were exposed to some radiation - especially after the final bomb at Maralinga in October 1957. Australian and British authorities maintained at the time the exposure was minimal and there was no threat. But in the past 50 years, evidence has emerged there is no safe level of radiation exposure. A survey of infant mortality rates in the Victorian towns reveals a circumstantial link between the nuclear rain and a rise in deaths. Sixteen children aged up to two died in Mildura in 1958. In 1959, the number was 20, before dropping to 13 the next year. Warrnambool had a similar pattern. The number of infant deaths in 1958 was 27. It increased to 34 in 1959, then dropped to 16 in 1960. Mt Isa in Queensland and Tamworth and Armidale in New South Wales mirror the Victorian results. The initial alarm about fallout was raised by Australian scientist Hedley Marston in 1957. Mr Marston found a radioactive cloud from the third nuclear test passed over Adelaide and left debris in the city's northern suburbs. His research on sheep and cattle, which had eaten fallout-tainted pasture, indicated the presence of a lethal nuclear by-product, strontium 90. END professor rat was born in 55 at Ballarat,country Vic.French tests raised cesium levels in milk around the late 50's early 60's. From profrv at nex.net.au Sat Aug 31 01:32:59 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 18:32:59 +1000 Subject: Justice delayed. Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020831183006.00a26ec0@mail.nex.net.au> Hicks in for the long haul By MICHAEL McKENNA 31aug02 AUSTRALIAN terror suspects David Hicks and Mamdouh Habib face a likely wait of more than a year for their legal battle against detention in a Cuban jail to be resolved American lawyers for the two men yesterday said the appeal process, expected to be completed in the US Supreme Court, was facing extensive delays under the weight of the legal system. The appeals, and counter appeals, follow the US District Court decision this month to detain the men without trial. Hicks, captured in Afghanistan, and Habib in Pakistan by local authorities, are being held in a maximum security prison at the US Navy base at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba. Both are accused, with the 596 other detainees at the navy base, of having links to al-Qaeda. "The legal system here is very slow at the moment and the appeal to the District Court decision alone will take a few months," said their lawyer, Joseph Margulies. Some good news though... Whale free of nets 31 August 2002 A HUMPBACK whale thought to have drowned after being caught in shark nets on the Gold Coast found some new friends yesterday as it was finally untangled by rescuers. 'Enduro," was towing an anchor,shark net and ropes/chains on a slow trek south... From profrv at nex.net.au Sat Aug 31 02:15:16 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 19:15:16 +1000 Subject: Most Incompetent agency,IRS,CIA,ATF,NSA,SS,or FBI? Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020831190025.009e66e0@mail.nex.net.au> http://www.wired.com/news/conflict/0,2100,54857,00.html Did FBI Bungle E-Mail Evidence? A Hotmail account used by suspected terrorist Zacarias Moussaoui expired, and its contents lost, before the FBI has a chance to look at it. By Michelle Delio. "...The FBI has openly admitted that its agents have difficulties collecting evidence from computers. FBI Director Robert Mueller told a House committee this summer that the agency lacks the technology skills and understanding that would allow agents to conduct complete computer forensics searches." Paging chris McNorton,paging chris McNorton. Hunter S. Thompson tells the Aussie radio program: "Overall, American journalism I think has been cowed and intimidated by the massive flat-sucking, this patriotic orgy that the White House keeps whipping up. You know if you criticize the President it's unpatriotic and there's something wrong with you, you may be a terrorist." ("The Media Report") From profrv at nex.net.au Sat Aug 31 02:40:02 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 19:40:02 +1000 Subject: Satellites can't track the dacoit down Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020831193736.009f0600@mail.nex.net.au> STF suspends hunt for Veerappan TIMES NEWS NETWORK [ FRIDAY, AUGUST 30, 2002 11:02:20 PM ] KOLLEGAL/BANGALORE: Amid mounting pressure from various quarters, who fear threat to hostage H Nagappa's life, the Karnataka Special Task Force (STF) on Friday suspended its combing operations to track Veerappan. STF sources told The Times of India the directive came from the state government on Thursday night. "Since Friday morning we are not carrying out any operations and have asked the men inside the forest to return to their respective camps," they added. THE STORY SO FAR • August 25: Sandalwood smuggler Veerappan abducts former Karnataka minister H Nagappa. • August 26: Veerappan sends a cassette in which he says Nagappa will be killed if the government tries to rescue him. • August 27: Karnataka Chief Minister S M Krishna meets Tamil Nadu Chief Minister Jayalalithaa to discuss the situation. They decide to ask the Centre for helicopters and sensors to track Veerappan. • August 28: Karnataka and Tamil Nadu special task forces intensify combing operations to nab Veerappan. Members of the bandit's gang are sighted in the Ramapura forest range. • Advocate Venugopal offers to act as mediator to negotiate Nagappa's release. • August 29: There are reports of Veerappan sending another cassette with demands for the release of former Karnataka minister. • Chief Minister S M Krishna, police deny receiving the second tape • Fearing threat to Nagappa's life, Karnataka government suspends STF operations to track Veerappan This was the demand of Veerappan in his first cassette of 54 second duration where he had threatened to kill Nagappa if combing operations were not stopped. There were reports of Veerappan sending the much-awaited second cassette expected to contain his demands. Both government and the police denied it. Apart from the government's efforts, the JD(U) leaders are also on the job as Nagappa is their partyman. JD(U) MLA P G R Sindhia is in touch with Suttur math seer Sri Shivarathri Desikendra, who in turn is tapping sources who can get in touch with Veerappan, sources said. Meanwhile, advocate Venugopal, who has offered his services to mediate with Veerappan, has sent his "own message" to Veerappan in an interview to All India Radio, Coimbatore station. "I have cited reasons to Veerappan of my offering to be an emissary and also reminded him of the number of people who have suffered on account of him," Venugopal said. Chief Minister S M Krishna, who called on Nagappa's family at Kamagere on Friday declining to say anything concrete on the issue, hinted of suspending the operations. "We will take necessary action required to get Nagappa back," he stated. Queried on the kind of action, Primary and Secondary Education Minister B K Chandrashekar said: "Here action means strategy and the government is working out a suitable strategy which will ensure Nagappa's release." Substantiating the statement, Krishna said: "Action necessarily does not mean only gun battle." Later addressing the gathering, Krishna said the government was serious in its efforts to get back Nagappa safely. "We will use all tactics adopted by the government in a similar situation two years ago when Rajkumar was kidnapped," he maintained. Notwithstanding the suspension of combing operations, three senior police officers - S T Ramesh (IGP), K Suresh Babu (IGP) and Gopal B Hosur (DCP) - were asked to report at the M M Hills base camp of STF. The officers left Bangalore following a message from DGP V V Bhaskar, who is personally supervising STF operations, dressed in commando style uniform and armed with binoculars and AK-47 rifles. Around 10 police officers from the city police and several others from CoD and KSRP have been drafted for the STF work. Gopal Hosur, who had served in the STF earlier had survived an attack on him by Veerappan from a close range 10 years ago. However, Hosur's colleagues, Harikrishna (SP) and others were shot dead. A bullet was stuck in Hosur's body, which was operated and removed. Related stories Satellites can't track the dacoit down Nedumaran ready to negotiate with Veerappan The brigand's area of operation The story so far Sandalwood smuggler's road to notoriety From profrv at nex.net.au Sat Aug 31 02:51:14 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 19:51:14 +1000 Subject: 4 billion dollar fine on the US,how do ya'll like them apples? Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020831194924.009f4960@mail.nex.net.au> The World Trade Organization ruled Friday that the European Union may impose record sanctions of some $4 billion on U.S exports, creating a major incentive for Washington to abandon special tax breaks for U.S. companies. Read the full text of the World Trade Organization ruling . The $4 billion sanction threat -- 20 times the amount imposed in any previous WTO disputes -- is a major victory for the EU over what it calls the "huge illegal export subsidy" provided to U.S. exporters. But EU officials have indicated that they will hold off on imposing the sanctions if the U.S. changes its tax policies and comes into compliance with WTO rules. "We are satisfied by today's decision that makes the cost of non-compliance with the WTO crystal clear," Trade Commissioner Pascal Lamay said in a statement issued by the European Commission. The U.S. tax break program, known as "Foreign Sales Corporations," allows U.S. companies with foreign interests to exempt between 15 and 30 percent of their export income from U.S. taxes. Approved by Congress in 2000, the provision allows major U.S. exporters such as Boeing, Microsoft and Disney to pay less tax, making their products cheaper and giving them an advantage over foreign competitors. The EU asked the WTO for the right to retaliate on $4.043 billion worth of goods, based on the amount of damage done to EU companies struggling to compete with U.S. corporations taking advantage of the tax breaks. A special panel of trade arbitrators decided on the sanctions figure after a series of starts and stops on the case since January. http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/wto_08-30-02.html From profrv at nex.net.au Sat Aug 31 03:17:03 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 20:17:03 +1000 Subject: They get letters,WTF do we ALLIES get? Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020831201434.009e6510@mail.nex.net.au> Parents happy over efforts to win release of Guantanamo prisoners By a Staff Writer JEDDAH, 31 August — The parents of two Saudis held at a US military base in Cuba have expressed happiness over efforts made by the Saudi authorities to win freedom for their sons. The two Saudi fathers told Al-Watan daily that they had received letters from their sons Jaber Hasan Al-Qahtani, 24, and Abdullah Hamid Al-Mosleh, 23, in Guantanamo. "They said they were in good health and were treated well by the Americans," the daily quoted the parents as saying. In their letters, Jaber and Abdullah expressed optimism that their ordeal would end soon. http://www.arabnews.com/Article.asp?ID=18214 AU's Hicks and Habib are incommunicado,no lawyers,no letters. US authorities have refused to give the detainees in Guantanamo prisoner-of-war status as set out under the Geneva Conventions and are reserving the right to present them before secret US military tribunals that have the power to impose the death penalty. From profrv at nex.net.au Sat Aug 31 03:23:21 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 20:23:21 +1000 Subject: Stormin' Norman see's another Somalia or Lebanon in Iraq. Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020831202055.009f0430@mail.nex.net.au> http://www.arabnews.com/Article.asp?ID=18218 Whats happening in the heart of darkness? American Muslims remain in the dock one year after 9/11 NEW YORK, 31 August — As America prepares to mourn the tragic events of Sept. 11, anxiety of the country’s seven million plus Muslim population is increasing every passing day. The Muslim population in US will be remembering the tragedy with mixed feelings of grief and fear.Muslim organizations across the... (full story). http://www.arabnews.com/Article.asp?ID=18228 From profrv at nex.net.au Sat Aug 31 03:29:03 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 20:29:03 +1000 Subject: Terrorists rife in the State Dept.The FBI is on it:) Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020831202737.009f0b20@mail.nex.net.au> Senators to give FBI records on contacts with media By The Associated Press 08.30.02 Printer-friendly page WASHINGTON — Most members of a Senate committee investigating the Sept. 11 attacks have agreed to provide the FBI with details of their contacts with reporters as part of an investigation into leaks of classified information. Contacted yesterday by the Associated Press, the offices of 13 of the 17 Senate Intelligence Committee members said they were complying with the FBI request. No office said it wasn't. In the other four offices, information wasn't available because the senator was traveling. The FBI is trying to determine who leaked details of conversations intercepted by the National Security Agency that were discussed June 18 at the House and Senate intelligence committees' closed-door inquiry. Details of the Arabic intercepts on Sept. 10 — the day before the September 2001 terror attacks — were initially broadcast by CNN the day after the closed hearing. The committees had requested the FBI investigation. Sen. Bob Graham, D-Fla., the committee's chairman, has instructed his staff to compile the material requested, his spokesman, Paul Anderson, said. Anderson said Graham supported the FBI investigation because the leak of classified information violated the law. The FBI also could examine whether the leaks may have come from outside Congress, he said. An internal investigation might not be able to do so. Graham "has said that he has nothing to hide," Anderson said. But Paul McMasters, First Amendment ombudsman for the Freedom Forum's First Amendment Center, said the FBI investigation could go beyond the leaks and uncover unrelated communications between lawmakers and journalists. "That's where this problem comes in," he said. Caesar Andrews, president of the Associated Press Managing Editors, said the request for information about press contacts "creates a mood of fear and dread among those people who should be helping to put the U.S. efforts in context." "I think it's more the climate that's created when there's a sense of overly aggressive efforts to clamp down on information," said Andrews, editor of Gannett News Service. "Obviously it's an issue that ultimately has a chilling effect on the flow of information from official sources to the public," said Douglas Clifton, editor of The Plain Dealer in Cleveland and chairman of the American Society of Newspaper Editors' Freedom of Information Committee. The FBI investigation comes as the Justice Department seeks to block public disclosure by Congress of the results of its investigation of Zacarias Moussaoui, the only person charged in the United States in connection with the Sept. 11 attacks. In court papers unsealed yesterday in Alexandria, Va., prosecutors said they didn't object to plans by the House and Senate intelligence committees to disclose what the government knows about the planning and execution of the attacks or what was known about two of the 19 Sept. 11 hijackers who met with al-Qaida operatives in Malaysia in January 2000, shortly before they came to the United States. But the government said planned hearings next month into the FBI's investigation of Moussaoui while he was in custody before the attacks could jeopardize his trial, now set for January. Lawyers for the committees said the hearings would not delve into Moussaoui's guilt or innocence. U.S. District Judge Leonie Brinkema refused for the time being to interfere with the hearings. But she asked prosecutors to propose new rules for handling sensitive material from the Moussaoui case that might be made public during congressional hearings. In connection with the FBI's investigation of leaks, the Justice Department sent a letter to the Senate counsel's office Aug. 7 requesting that members of the Senate committee and their press staff submit telephone logs, memos, visitor sign-in sheets and other material showing communications with the news media between noon June 18 and 3:15 p.m. June 19, when CNN broadcast details of the intercepts. The letter also called for calendars, appointment books and e-mails for the senators and their press staff during that period. No similar request was made of House Intelligence Committee members. Some lawmakers, including the panel's top Republican, Sen. Richard Shelby of Alabama, have said the FBI investigation of the committees breached the separation of powers between the executive and legislative branches — particularly while the committee was examining intelligence shortcomings at the FBI and other agencies. Sen. Richard Durbin, R-Ill., told the Chicago Sun-Times this week that in requesting personal schedules, the FBI was "trying to put a damper on our activities and I think they will be successful." He was unavailable for comment yesterday. Related Is the press guilty of treason? Ombudsman Many regard robust exercise of First Amendment rights by either the press or the people as a dangerous problem in the fight against terrorism. 08.08.02 Rumsfeld urges crackdown on leaks to press Defense secretary writes memo a week after The New York Times reports on classified document outlining aspects of 'concept' for U.S. war against Iraq. 07.17.02 Reporter: State Department demanded source of classified leak National Review's Joel Mowbray says officials detained him briefly, wanted to know how he obtained secret papers on U.S. visa program in Saudi Arabia. 07.16.02 http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=16846 From profrv at nex.net.au Sat Aug 31 03:46:23 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 20:46:23 +1000 Subject: "Criminal degenerate Bush" Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020831204351.009f4820@mail.nex.net.au> http://www.makethemaccountable.com/ The stealing of the Presidency 2000 has been swept under the rug by the Democratic establishment. The media would like us to believe that we should move on but that would be rewarding criminal actions by the Bush gang. Already history is being rewritten – with Gore being attacked for running a poor campaign and being ridiculed as loser who should get out of the way, and while the criminal degenerate Bush is admired for being a winner. Every democratic candidate for President must be forced to address what happened in 2000 so that history does not repeat itself, and to remind the 1000s of voters in Florida who were disenfrachised that they have not been forgotten. More Reba Shimansky Unprecedented: The 2000 Presidential Election is the riveting story about the battle for the Presidency in Florida and the undermining of democracy in America. Filmmakers Richard Ray Pérez and Joan Sekler examine modern America's most controversial political contest: the Election of George W. Bush. What emerges is a disturbing picture of an election marred by suspicious irregularities, electoral injustices, and sinister voter purges in a state governed by the winning candidate brother. George W. Bush stole the presidency of the United States and got away with it. " the movie highlights those on the front lines—from the African-Americans who were turned away from the polling booths for assorted reasons. In one memorable scene the filmmakers freeze-frame a 'protest' against the ballot recount, identifying participants as staff members of Republican elected officials." --Elaine Dutka, Los Angeles Times Also see,"The best democracy money can buy," Greg Palast.Gold and Coup expert and excellent writer. From profrv at nex.net.au Sat Aug 31 04:21:25 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 21:21:25 +1000 Subject: S. Roach is dead Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020831211757.00a21da0@mail.nex.net.au> ASSMAN #15 Stars Steve Holmes, Sophie Roche, Robert Rosenberg, ... ASSMAN #15 Stars Steve Holmes, Sophie Roche, Robert Rosenberg, Rita Faltoyano, Richard Langin, Jean-Yves Le Castel, Jean-Pierre Armand, Jane Blue, David Perry ... www.xxxmoviestore.com/Products/ASSMAN_15.htm - 16k - Cached - Similar pages Sophie Roche From RAME: Sophie Roche indeed has passed away. The French magazine Hot Video had a very small article in their february issue on the death of Sophie Roche. It seems that she passed away early in January 2002. While the article didn't mention that she had committed suicide, it did state that she passed away following a family tragedy, in French "un drame familial". Gene, the Predictor of Events, strikes again: W. Chester officials try to shut out adult shops Gene sez: I told you last year Cincinnati was going to be the du jour battle ground where the obscenity lines were going to be drawn in the sand. No one, much less the Free Speech Coalition, listened when the Elyse Metcalf trial came up. Now comes another story on the heels of the pending Jennifer Dute and Sean Jenkins' obscenity trials along with the Citizens for Community Values running amok in Cincinnati hotel rooms pulling the cords on adult pay per view. From the Cincinnati Enquirer : WEST CHESTER TWP. — Officials here want to make it tougher to open and operate a sexually oriented business in this fast-growing suburb strategically located along Interstate 75 between Cincinnati and Dayton. Township officials are planning to tighten their licensing and zoning codes for sexually oriented businesses, an idea that arose after a comment made during a recent campaign by one mall developer against another, “The sex industry is simply not part of what we consider a diversified economic base for our community,” Trustee Catherine Stoker said. “There apparently is a constitutional right for people to dance about almost naked in public but I just don't see why they need to dance in West Chester.” West Chester leaders are not alone in their desire to regulate such businesses. In Northern Kentucky, municipalities in Kenton and Campbell counties are considering a study on regulating sexually oriented businesses; and this week Wilder city officials said they would, too, after a semi-nude dance club opened there last weekend. And in Fairfield, after residents recently brought it to City Council's attention, a video store that had begun selling X-rated movies voluntarily removed the selections from its shelves. West Chester trustees have agreed to spend up to $20,000 for the services of a Cleveland professor who is considered an expert on adult business law to review their codes once they are updated to reflect recent court decisions. The move comes after Continental Retail Development of Columbus launched a campaign in May against competing developers trying to build a “lifestyle center” at Cincinnati-Dayton Road and Interstate 75. The strategy suggested that approval of the project would lead to adult businesses and traffic gridlock. The lifestyle center was turned down by the township and is on hold pending a court appeal and rezoning. But the campaign underscored the need, township officials say, to examine their zoning and other rules related to sexually oriented businesses and make sure they are airtight as West Chester booms and becomes a hub between Cincinnati and Dayton. “Significant concern has been raised about our enforceability on those regulations and I was concerned about those, too,” West Chester Planning and Zoning Director Brian Elliff told trustees. “I don't think it will happen but now that it's out in the open. I don't want anybody to get some ideas that they can come in here.” Phil Burress, president of the anti-pornography group Citizens for Community Values, recently met with Mr. Elliff and Township Administrator Dave Gully to discuss sexually oriented businesses in West Chester. On Wednesday, Mr. Burress said a CCV attorney reviewed the township's codes and found holes. West Chester has four sexually oriented businesses — two stores that sell various items, one gas station that sells adult magazines and one video store, Mr. Burress said. There are no massage parlors or adult clubs, though a club did once briefly operate at I-75 and Cincinnati-Dayton Road. “West Chester is a prime location for adult businesses,” said Mr. Burress, a West Chester resident. “We are kind of heading in the wrong direction here. One business has opened a quarter of a mile from my house. This is not good news. These people sneak in, the trend starts and before you know it you have a strip club or book store.” Officials aren't yet sure what exactly will be changed in their codes but say they are likely to adopt a model ordinance Cleveland State University professor Alan Weinstein already has developed based on his expertise with First Amendment law. Jimmy Flynt, who has made a career out of gauging the public's sexual appetite, says such moves often are more trouble than they are worth for municipalities. “Most of these experts that they reach out and hire usually shoot the city in the foot,” said Mr. Flynt, brother of Hustler founder Larry Flynt and operator of the Hustler of Hollywood store in Monroe. “They either underdo it or overdo it. We still have our rights to do business.” Jimmy Flynt said he has no plans to expand into West Chester, though he, too, agrees it is a prime location for adult businesses. “I don't want to be in West Chester. That's where the cake eaters are,” he said. “I want to be up where we eat cornbread.” Sexually oriented businesses in West Chester now can operate only in specific areas zoned for general business and must go for review before the board of zoning appeals before opening. Locations where adult businesses can go are scattered throughout the township, Mr. Elliff said, but according to the zoning map, a heavily concentrated spot runs along the Cincinnati-Dayton Road/I-75 corridor. That road is being widened from two to five lanes. News that the township was updating its sexually oriented business codes drew lukewarm response this week from sex establishment operators. The oldest one in West Chester, Pik Kwik Market off Ohio 747, has sold sex toys, oils, magazines, movies and other items for 30 years. “Sex is a beautiful thing,” manager Jeff Busemeyer said. “If they don't like what we're selling here, don't come in. Would they rather us get some guns in here and start selling guns?” Maggie writes: Dear Gene. I was thinking of becoming a hooker. And after reading that story this morning about Kelly Jaye, I'm convinced this is the way to go. Two Vipers?! I would have settled for one. Gene sez: No offense, Maggie, but I would change the name. I mean who needs Rod Stewart singing songs about you. Other than that, if you're a blond and have more legs than brains, I would encourage you in your pursuits. After all, you, too, might meet a Michael Fanghella. From profrv at nex.net.au Sat Aug 31 04:58:52 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 21:58:52 +1000 Subject: Terrorist-Mob Two headed Horseman. Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020831214149.00a23ec0@mail.nex.net.au> http://organizedcrime.about.com/library/weekly/aa082902a.htm Part 1: The Drug Connection Much has been written in the last year about the connection between terrorism and organized crime. Shortly after September 11, President Bush came out and directly cited narcotics trafficking as a source of revenue for terrorist organizations. The United States government reported that the Taliban allegedly helped finance Osama bin Laden's terror network by giving him 10 percent of the $8 billion Afghanistan reaped from its opium crop. In return, Al Qaeda was to use its "formidible" international network to market the crop. Nonsense, says McGill University organized crime expert professor R.T. Naylor. (no relation.) "It is likely that the informal banking system used extensively in the region, usually referred to as the hawala or hundi system, is also used by drug traffickers," Hutchinson said. "This system is an underground, traditional, informal network that has been used for centuries by businesses and families throughout Asia. This system provides a confidential, convenient, efficient service at a low cost in areas that are not served by traditional banking facilities. The hawala or hundi system leaves no "paper trail" for investigators to follow." That reminds me there was a quite long story on Ithaca dollars,esp interesting as I lived there for a year once.There's another horseman loose there,the net sex killer,I shit you not... http://nypost.com/news/regionalnews/47084.htm Hey remember when meyer and lucky helped stamp out nazi sabotage on the waterfront? Well some wiseguys just got knocked back on a similar deal to watch out for Al Quim frogmen. That's too bad. The Coast Guard and Customs Service are woefully understaffed to keep an eye on every ship that comes into the 1,500-square mile Port of New York and New Jersey. By the Coast Guard's own admission, they can inspect just 1 percent of the cargo containers that enter the Harbor. "Do we have all the people we need? No," Vice Admiral James D. Hull, the Commander of the Coast Guard Atlantic area, said in a telephone interview. "But we have prioritized our missions." The Port Authority and the Waterfront Commission of New York and New Jersey have done a great job of cleaning out organzied crime from the harbor, but let's face it: where there is money, there is the mob. The same methods used to keep the Harbor clear of Nazis 60 years ago could work today. All the government has to do is ask. Sure this is a simplistic solution and in many cases goes against the self interest of the mobsters, but it worked in the 1940s, it can work today. Hell the port authority is just a WASP mob anyways,right? From profrv at nex.net.au Sat Aug 31 05:25:47 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 22:25:47 +1000 Subject: Mexican Mafia contract out on 'arbusto.' Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020831221315.00a21b30@mail.nex.net.au> "We deal in drugs, contracts of assassination, prostitution, robberies of the highest degree, gambling extortion, weapons or any and every other thing criminally imaginable," http://organizedcrime.about.com/library/weekly/aa082002a.htm The Mexican Mafia From its humble beginnings as a prison gang in Texas, the Mexican Mafia has taken its bloody business far beyond the prison walls. In the first RICO prosecution of a prison gang, prosecutors brought a two-count RICO case against the top tier of La Eme, including Huerta, who was in prison in Colorado at the time of the French Place slayings. The fact that he was still directing his gang from several hundred miles away allowed prosecutors to charge Huerta as a conspirator. After a high-profile trial, Perez, Herrera and the eight other defendants who went to trial (the others plea bargained) were convicted on federal racketeering charges and given life terms with no chance of parole. Despite the decimation of the highest ranking Mexikaneme, the Mexican Mafia remains to this day a formidable organized crime operation with branches throughout the American Southwest on both sides of prison walls. Jim bell charged with Operation Soft drill direction? Only in america. Did You Know? Judges at the state and federal level issued a total of 1,491 wiretap authorizations -- the lion's share came from state judges, according to the Administrative Office of the United States Courts's 2001 Wiretap Report, issued at the end of May. Tap in here... 2 peso's for the head of the shrub. From profrv at nex.net.au Sat Aug 31 05:58:04 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 22:58:04 +1000 Subject: The Cincinnati syndrome. Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020831225530.00a24be0@mail.nex.net.au> http://enquirer.com/editions/2002/08/29/loc_two_more_hotels_pull.html Two more hotels pull sex movies By Michael D. Clark, mclark at enquirer.com The Cincinnati Enquirer NEWPORT — Two more Tristate hotels have agreed, under pressure from a local prosecutor and police, to remove adult, in-room movies after complaints from anti-pornography activists. It's an unusual strategy, say its proponents and national experts, and a further sign that Greater Cincinnati continues to take a leading role nationally in battling the distribution of sexually explicit materials. Newport (Enquirer photo) Campbell County prosecutors this month warned owners of the Comfort Suites hotel on Riverboat Row in Newport that they should cease offering adult movies to guests or face criminal charges. Spurred by complaints from supporters of local anti-pornography activists from Sharonville-based Citizens for Community Values, Campbell County Prosecutor Justin Verst, working with Newport police, had officers secretly check into the hotel and videotape six adult movies. Mr. Verst then sent a letter, dated Aug. 7, warning Comfort Suites officials that he believed that offering the movies, which he described as “hard-core pornographic material,” violated Kentucky law regarding distribution of obscene matter. Two days later Comfort Suites officials responded by removing the adult movies. Soon after, Mr. Verst said, other complaints prompted a Newport police investigation of the Travelodge, 220 York St. Officers told owners to stop offering explicit adult videotape rentals to adult guests for viewing on in-room VCRs, and the owners complied. Phil Burress, president of CCV, said his group's new strategy of targeting explicit adult movies offered by hotels is the first of its sort in the nation, and that more Tristate hotels will soon be investigated by CCV supporters. “The snowball is rolling now,” said Mr. Burress of his group's tactic that has affected three Tristate hotels in a month. Bruce Taylor, president and chief counsel for the National Law Center for Children and Families, said no other anti-pornography group in the country has successfully pressured three hotels within one region to drop adult movies. “That's unique,” Mr. Taylor, a former federal prosecutor, said Wednesday from the center's Fairfax, Va., headquarters. He said that the Tristate's history of prosecuting obscenity — made famous beginning in the 1970s with Hamilton County's legal battles with Hustler publisher Larry Flynt — adds to the leverage the CCV wields. “You have such a commitment and successful history of prosecution ... that the prosecutors only have to tell the hotels to remove the movies,” he said. Earlier this month CCV officials grabbed national attention when they announced that their supporters had videotaped adult movies in the Marriott Northeast hotel in Deerfield Township and forwarded them to Warren County Prosecutor Tim Oliver. Mr. Oliver said be believed the movies violated Ohio's obscenity laws and warned Marriott officials of possible criminal charges, prompting them to remove the movies. “I'd be very surprised if other actions are not taken by other prosecutors against hotels that are dealing in hard-core pornography,” said Mr. Burress, who declined to reveal any details. The CCV, which was founded in 1983 as an anti-pornography, pro-family advocacy group, has been a high-profile lobbying force against Tristate pornography and what it claims are its detrimental effects on families, individuals and society. But civil liberties advocates blasted CCV's strategy as unfair to adults who say actions against their limited entertainment options might soon be followed by other restrictions imposed by watchdog groups. “The CCV is trying to export their own Taliban style of fundamentalism,” said Scott Greenwood, general counsel for the American Civil Liberties Union of Ohio and a Cincinnati-based attorney. Mr. Greenwood said the anti-pornography group's latest strategy, focusing on mostly out-of-town travelers and tourists, “points out to a more pressing problem of why does the CCV find it so necessary to go after people who don't even live here.” He said he is not surprised that hotels quickly choose to remove such adult entertainment rather than engage in litigation. “They don't have deep pockets and these hotels are in business to make money, not to defend the First Amendment,” he said. CCV officials estimate that 40 percent of the nation's hotels offer adult movie options, accounting for about 90 percent of pay-per-view revenue. An Enquirer phone survey last year showed that more than half of 20 Hamilton County hotels queried provided such entertainment. H. Louis Sirkin, a First Amendment and Cincinnati trial attorney, described CCV as a “vigilante group” whose only power comes from prosecutors he claims are not protecting citizens' rights. “What's really frightening about this is that there are local prosecutors who are willing to forget their constitutional oath to protect the First Amendment,” said Mr. Sirkin, who added that “it's really easy to scare people and that's what the local governments are doing to the hotels.” Mr. Sirkin, who has represented Mr. Flynt and was defense counsel during the city's famous Robert Mapplethorpe obscenity trial against the Contemporary Arts Center exhibition of his photos in 1990, said, “It's disturbing to me that Cincinnati is getting a national reputation for this and that's one of the reasons the city is going stale.” Travelodge management was unavailable for comment but Chester Musselman, CEO of Louisville-based Musselman Hotels and owner of the Comfort Suites at 420 Riverboat Row, said this is the first time such a complaint has been lodged against any of his 25 hotels in Kentucky, Indiana and Tennessee. “This is not an issue to us,” Mr. Musselman said. “I'm running a business and I'll abide by the local laws.” Mr. Verst stated in an Aug. 22 letter to Comfort Suites that Newport police will “occasionally check your business to ensure that no further such pornographic movies are being shown,” or criminal charges will be filed. Mr. Burress said that “no doubt some people will label this action a violation of privacy (but) it's not a matter of violating privacy or of imposing values. It's a matter of law. “This is not about what someone views in the privacy of their home or hotel room,” he said. “This is about selling and distributing obscenity. There are state laws against that and major hotels are not above the law.” From profrv at nex.net.au Sat Aug 31 07:51:56 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 00:51:56 +1000 Subject: Cyberpunks: Seattle "Activist" Is Not an Innocent Webmaster, Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020901003448.00a21150@mail.nex.net.au> Bravo Eric! A classic of deconstruction! James... An au citizen goes to Kosovo and becomes a hero protecting helpless locals from serb tanks,he then travels to 'Ghan and is protecting local women there from rapists and murdering slave/opium traders in the North,when he is taken prisoner and kidnapped to Cuba.He is still there,no visitors except ASIO agents,no letters,no rights,no rules.Did I mention he is an AUSTRALIAN.An ALLY.The US ambassador,a crooked shrub crony from Arlington condemns and smears the au citizens name much as you did with similar sounding diabolical scaremongering that was old when tailgunner joe was alive.Actually it was old when they were burning witches at Salem. Another au citizen was kidnapped from Pakistan,he was taken to X-ray as well and is suffering the same cruel,unusual punishment as the other for arguably even less 'reason.' No charges,no trials,no geneva convention rights.No human or civil rights at all.FUCK AMERIKKKA all to HELL! You deserve poison for all your crimes,who poisoned the indigenes? Take your 'intelligence' and shove it up your ass. In a genuine democracy, the rights of even a minority of one are sacred and cannot be violated with impunity.— V K Narasimhan. From profrv at nex.net.au Sat Aug 31 08:22:59 2002 From: profrv at nex.net.au (Matthew X) Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 01:22:59 +1000 Subject: Holidays in Columbia. Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020901011350.00a22420@mail.nex.net.au> A top figure in a terrorist group has told his armed fighters to target American interests and to extort, kidnap and murder American citizens. "The United States has declared war," he said in a radio message to armed followers. "Your obligation is to fight them." Instructions from a bin Laden deputy holed up in a cave somewhere? Maybe a radical Islamic band in Pakistan? Or extremists in the land of our "ally" Saudi Arabia? None of the above. Wrong region. The threat comes from our very own hemisphere, and was issued by Jorge Briceno, military chief of the rebel Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, known as the FARC. The communication was intercepted by Colombian police and reported by a television station in Bogota. So far, indications are that the FARC plans to attack American citizens in Colombia itself. So far, no one is saying FARC plans to bring terrorism to American soil. And the best way to assure that that horror does not happen is for the United States to fully support the efforts of Colombia's new president, Alvaro Uribe, to defeat the terrorists who have brought his nation 38 years of war in which more than 100,000 people have died. There might be doubts about the real motives of Middle Eastern governments that are supposedly part of the struggle against terrorism, but there can be no doubt about Uribe. Aside from his very personal motivation - Uribe's father was killed by terrorists two decades ago - the new president of this Andean nation was elected by a landslide after promising voters a hard line against terrorism. His predecessor, Andres Pastrana, had made the mistake of believing FARC would be open to a reasonable dialogue and would negotiate in good faith. Pastrana turned over to the rebels a Switzerland-sized chunk of Colombia, which FARC used as a base to conduct terrorist attacks in the rest of the nation. Pastrana came to his senses when he called off talks this past February. Violence has intensified since. In fact, earlier this month FARC attacked the Colombian Congress while Uribe's inauguration ceremony was being held, killing 21 people in a shower of mortars. It was FARC's way of showing off, of telling the nation that even an event as supposedly secure as the swearing-in of a president was within reach of their violence. Although the attack sowed fear among the long-suffering people of Colombia, it also showed FARC's own fears. Its leaders know that Uribe is no Pastrana, not someone about to be hoodwinked into thinking Colombia's terror groups will settle for anything short of the imposition of a Marxist dictatorship. That Uribe means business is clear from the measures he has taken barely a month in office. He wants to double the size of the professional army to 100,000 and add $1 billion to annual defense spending of $3.1 billion. He has imposed a special war tax on people and businesses with assets of more than $60,000 and has promised to train a network of 100,000 civilians to act as police auxiliaries. http://www.colombiatimes.com/ PUERTO ASIS, Colombia (AP) -- Black spirals of buzzards mark the fresh corpses that turn up in this frontier town and in the nearby coca fields, jungle and pastures, where paramilitary death squads roam freely, killing suspected rebel collaborators or anyone else who gets in their way. Despite patrols by Colombian soldiers and police, the carnage is mounting, and terrified residents don't know where to turn for help. "We are in Puerto Asis, where there is no justice, no law," snapped a medical worker, who asked not to be named for fear he might be killed for speaking out. "Someone could come into this office right now and shoot me, and nothing would ever come of it." The paramilitaries have waged a war of terror across Colombia in their zeal to combat the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, or FARC, and a smaller rebel group. Their bloody battle is among the greatest obstacles to President Alvaro Uribe's promises of finally bringing peace to this country after years of bloodshed. The FARC is fighting its own war against the government, a conflict that has stretched 38 years. In the meantime, Colombian civilians -- like the residents of Puerto Asis -- are caught in the middle. In only a few months, dozens of civilians, including two mayoral candidates, have been shot dead in this town in the steamy southern lowlands of Colombia's cocaine heartland. Many wind up buried in body bags in the trash-strewn "nameless" section of the town cemetery. Police and soldiers set up checkpoints and patrol streets filled with snarling motorcycles, smog-belching buses and horse-drawn carts. But they seem unable to stop the bloodshed. Even the presence in town of an U.S.-trained army counternarcotics battalion has had no effect. Planes and U.S.-donated Black Hawk helicopters regularly fly along the horizon on their way to fumigate the coca fields. Authorities say the killers get away scot-free because few witnesses want to point fingers at paramilitary group, the United Self-Defense Forces of Colombia. "They are afraid to report the killings, because they think there will be reprisals against them," said Puerto Asis Mayor Manuel Alzate, who survived an assassination attempt last year. Residents admit they're terrified of being targeted, but also suspect the police and army turn a blind eye to the killings. A paramilitary leader, contacted on the phone in Puerto Asis, refused an interview request. Members of the outlawed group openly prowl through town, wearing baseball caps over close-cropped hair, pistols stuck into jeans beneath loose-fitting shirts. "To arrest someone, we need an arrest warrant," insisted a police officer at the police station, protected by sandbags and rifle-toting officers. "We can't arrest someone just because he looks suspicious." The paramilitaries moved into Puerto Asis about three years ago, while FARC guerrillas occupy rural areas outside the town. The guerrillas are known to commit their own killings in areas they control. The area is becoming among the world's deadliest places, with 128 reported homicides this year, hospital records say. Many more are thought to have gone unreported. That's a ratio of 450 homicides per 100,000 people. In the United States, the ratio last year was 5.5 per 100,000. On the evening of July 28, Leonidas Yague, a municipal official until he resigned in May to run for mayor, left his mother at home and headed to a nearby store, only to be slain on the street. "He said, 'Mom, I'll be back in a little while,"' his mother, Rosa Benavides, recalled as tears sprang to her eyes. "Twenty minutes later he was dead." According to the police report, an unidentified gunman shot Yague five times. "He said he would never leave me," said Benavides, a stocky 73-year-old widow with swept-back short hair. "I'm left all alone here." Other victims included Serafin Merino, another candidate for mayor, who was shot in the head more than a dozen times on August 22 outside a hospital. Days earlier, a woman was executed after she allegedly slapped a paramilitary gunman in a bar. One of the few who takes the carnage in stride is funeral director Maria Cruz. "Business is great, thank God," she told a reporter without a hint of irony, sitting amid empty coffins trimmed with purple velvet. "Sometimes there are bodies everywhere." http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/americas/08/30/colombia.deadly.town.ap/index.html