From whaazup at hotmail.com Sat Sep 1 03:55:20 2001 From: whaazup at hotmail.com (whaazup at hotmail.com) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 06:55:20 -0400 Subject: HOWDY!!!! Message-ID: <200109011030.DAA19753@ecotone.toad.com> ÐÏࡱál freedom. Read on... Thank you for your time and Interest. This is the letter you've been reading about in the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the Internet, a major nightly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of the program described below to see, if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved once and for all that there are, absolutely no laws prohibiting the participation in the program. This has helped to show people that this is a simple, harmless, and fun way to make some extra money at home. The results of this show have been truly remarkable. So many people are participating that those involved are doing much better than ever before. Since everyone makes more as more people try it out, its been very exciting to be a part of lately. You will understand once you experience it. "HERE IT IS BELOW." ************************************************* Print This Now (IF YOU HAVE NOT already done it) for Future Reference The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in taking a look at. It can be started with VERY LITTLE investment and the income return is TREMENDOUS!!! THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEYMAKING OPPORTUNITY. It does not require you to come into contact with people, do any especially hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail. Simply follow the instructions, and you really can make this happen. This e-mail order-marketing program works every time if you put in the effort to make it work. E-mail is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of this non- commercialized method of advertising NOW! The longer you wait, the more savvy people will be taking your business using e-mail. Get what is rightfully yours. Program yourself for success and dare to think BIG. Sounds corny but its true. You'll never make it big if you dont have the belief system in place. ************************************************************** My name is Jonathan Rourke. Two years ago, the corporation I worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was eliminated. After unproductive job interviews, I decided to open my own business. Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial problems. I owed my family, friends, and creditors over $35,000. The economy was taking a toll on my business and I just couldn't seem to make ends meet. I had to refinance and borrow against my home to support my family and struggling business. At that moment something significant happened in my life and I am writing to share the experience in hopes that this will change your life forever financially! In mid December of 1997, I received this program via e-mail. Six months prior to receiving this program, I had been sending away for information on various business opportunities. All of the programs I received, in my opinion, were not cost effective. They were either too difficult for me to comprehend or the initial investment of hundreds of thousands of dollars was too much for me to risk to see if they would work or not. One claimed that I would make a million dollars in one year... it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it! But like I was saying, in December of 1997 I received this program. I didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing list. Thank goodness for that! After reading it several times, to make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes. Here was a money making phenomenon! I could invest as much as I wanted to start, without putting me further into debt. After I got a pencil and paper and figured it out, I would at least get my money back. But like most of you I was still a little skeptical and a little worried about the legal aspects of it all. So I checked it out with the U.S. Post Office (1-800-725-2161 24-hrs) and they confirmed that it is indeed legal! After determining the program was Legal and not a chain letter, I decided "Why not?." Initially I sent out 10,000 e-mails. It cost me about $25 for third party bulk emailing. The great thing about e-mail is that I don't need any money for printing to send out the program, and because all of my orders are fulfilled via e- mail, the only expense is my time or advertising costs. I am telling you like it is. I hope it doesn't turn you off, but I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how much money it cost me. Here is the basic version of what you need to do: Your first goal is to "Receive at least 20 orders for Report #1 within 2 weeks of your first program going out. IF YOU DON'T, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!" Your second goal is to "Receive at least 150 orders for report #2 within 2 weeks. IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. Once you have your 150 orders, relax, you've met your goal, you will make $50,000 but keep at it! If you don't get 150 right off, keep at it! It just may take some time for your down line to build, keep at it, stay focused and do not let yourself get distracted! In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for Report #1. I kept at it.. kept mailing out the program and By January 13, I had received 26 orders for Report #1. My first step in making $50,000 was done. By January 30, I had received 196 orders for Report #2, 46 more than I needed. So I relaxed, but kept at it mailing out programs via classified ad leads at first and then later via bulk email ads (not free like classifieds but much more effective). By March 1, three months after my e-mailing of the first 10,000 I had hit $58,000 with more coming in every day. I paid off ALL my debts and bought a much-needed new car. Please take time to read the attached program, IT CAN CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER!!! Remember, it won't work if you don't try it. This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rules of not trying to place your name in a different place. It won't work, you'll lose out on a lot of money! In order for this program to work very fast ( you will make money no matter what as long as you do some mailing of programs) try to meet your goal of 20 orders for REPORT #1, and 150 orders for REPORT #2 and you will make $50,000 or more in 90 days. If you don't reach the first two goals within two weeks, relax, you will still make a ton of money it may just take a few months or so longer. But keep mailing out programs and stay focused ! Thats the key! I am living proof that it works! If you choose not to participate in this program, I am sorry. It really is a great opportunity with minimal risk to you. If you choose to participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to financial security. If you are a fellow business owner and are in financial trouble like I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a sign. I DID! Sincerely, Jonathan Rourke PS Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) looks like piled up on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME! Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. ************************************************** THINK ABOUT IT: Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil and figure out what could happen when YOU participate. Figure out the worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will still make a lot of money! You will definitely get back what you invested. Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in. IT WORKS! Jody Jacobs, Richmond, VA ************************************************** HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU THOUSANDS OF DOLLAR$ INSTRUCTIONS: This method of raising capital REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME. If you get to work and stay focused on it! I am sure that you could use extra income or more in the next few months. Before you say, "NO WAY... ", please read this program carefully. This is a legal money making opportunity. Basically, this is what you do: As with all multi-level businesses, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products. Every state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-level business partners, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent. YOUR ORDERS COME BY MAIL AND ARE FILLED BY E-MAIL, so you are not involved in personal selling. You do it privately in your own home, store, or office. This is the GREATEST Multi-Level Mail Order Marketing anywhere: This is what you MUST do: 1. Order all 5 reports shown on the list below (you can't sell them if you don't order them). * For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, YOUR NAME & RETURN ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to the person whose name appears on the list next to the report. * When you place your order, make sure you order each of the five reports. You will need all five reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. * Within a few days, you will receive, via e-mail, each of the five reports. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. 2. IMPORTANT-- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than is instructed below in steps "a" through "g" or you will lose out on the majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you'll also see how it doesn't work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter it, it will not work. a. Look below for the listing of available reports. b. After you've ordered the five reports, take this Advertisement and remove the name and address under REPORT #5. This person has made it through a cycle and is no doubt on their way to $50,000 ! c. Move the name and address under REPORT #4 down to REPORT #5. d. Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to REPORT #4. e. Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3. f. Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to REPORT #2. g. Insert your name and address in the REPORT #1 position. Please make sure you copy every name and address ACCURATELY! Copy and paste method works well. (on IBM compatibles machines highlight the text you want to move and press ctrl-C to copy it and then click where you want it to go and then hit Ctrl - V to paste it in. Or use the edit menu.) 3. Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and save it to your computer. Make NO changes to the Instruction portion of this letter. Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can afford $25!). You obviously already have an Internet Connection and e-mail, which you use to fill your orders its basically FREE! To assist you with marketing your business on the Internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing information which includes how to send bulk e- mails, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much, much more. There are two primary methods of building your down line: METHOD #1: SENDING BULK E-MAIL Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we'll assume you and all those involved send out only 2,000 programs each. Let's also assume that the mailing receives a 0.5% response. Using a good list, the response could be much better. Also, many people will send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000. But continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs. With a 0.5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1. Those 10 people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000. Out of those 0.5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2. Those 100 people mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000. The 0.5% response to that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3. Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each for a 2,000,000 total. The 0.5% response to that is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4. That amounts to 10,000 each of $5 bills for you in CASH MONEY! Then think about level five! Your total income in this example would be $50 $500 $5,000 $50,000 for a total of $55,550 ! REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF THE 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO "ABSOLUTELY NOTHING" AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF HALF-SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF 2,000. Believe me, MANY people will do just that, and more! REPORT #2 will show you the best methods for bulk e-mailing, and email software. METHOD #2 - PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET 1. Classified Advertising on the web via message boards/ classified sites is very inexpensive, and there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to place ads. Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it works. Assume your goal is to get ONLY 10 people to participate on your first level. (Placing a lot of FREE classified ads on the Internet will EASILY get a larger response). Also, assume that everyone else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 down line members. Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results Below (same as email example): 1st level-your 10 members with $5............... $50 2nd level-10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100)....$500 3rd level-10 members from those 100 ($5 x1,000) $5,000 4th level-10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10k) $50,000 THIS TOTALS............................. ........$55,550 5th level-10 members from those 10,000 ($5 x 100k)???,???! Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only recruits 10 people each. Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20 people to participate! Many people get 100's of participants! THINK ABOUT IT! For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the report they ordered. THAT'S IT! ALWAYS TRY TO PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS! This will GUARANTEE that the e-mail THEY send out, with YOUR name and address on it, will be prompt. AVAILABLE REPORTS ---------------------------------------------------------- *** Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME *** Notes: - ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH (U.S. CURRENCY) FOR EACH REPORT CHEQUES ARE NOT ACCEPTED - ALWAYS SEND YOUR ORDER VIA FIRST CLASS MAIL - Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two sheets of paper (IF NOT MORE SO THAT THE BILL(s) CAN'T BE SEEN AGAINST LIGHT) - On one of those sheets of paper, include: (a) the number & name of the report you are ordering (b)your e-mail address (c) your name & postal address (as return address in case the post office encounters problems). PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW: Report #1 "The insider's Guide to Advertizing for free on the Internet." ORDER REPORT #1 FROM: Eric Allen 999 Westchester RD South Park, PA 15129 _______________________________________ REPORT #2 "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk E-mail on the Internet." ORDER REPORT #2 FROM: Maria Thibodeau PO Box 2294 Edgartown, MA 02539 __________________________________________________ REPORT #3 "The Insider's Guide to Multilevel Marketing on the Internet." ORDER REPORT #3 FROM: JC Cosi 17760 Candlewood Terrace Boca Raton, FL 33487 _______________________________________________ REPORT #4 "How to become a Millionare utilzing the Internet." ORDER REPORT #4 FROM: Andrew Moss 5959 Natchez Rd Riverside CA, 92509 ________________________________________________ REPORT #5 "How to become a Millionaire utilizing the Power of Multilevel Marketing and the Internet Part II" ORDER REPORT #5 FROM: Don Harpo 3028 Ridgeland Dr Jackson, MS 39212 _________________________________________________ About 50,000 new people get online every month! ******* TIPS FOR SUCCESS ******* * TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS! Be prompt, professional, and follow the directions accurately. * Send for the five reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when the orders start coming in because: * When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested product/report. * ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICES ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE. * Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the instructions exactly, your results WILL BE SUCCESSFUL! * ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED! ******* YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES ******* Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: Start posting ads as soon as you mail off for the reports! By the time you start receiving orders, your reports will be in your mailbox! For now.. something simple, such as posting on message boards something to the effect of "Would you like to know how to earn 50,000 working out of your house with NO initial investment? Email me with the keywords "more info" to find out how." ---- and when they email you , send them this report in response! If you don't receive 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks, keep at it, continue advertising or sending bulk e- mails UNTIL YOU DO. Then, a few weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT#2. If you don't, continue advertising or sending e-mails UNTIL YOU DO. Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, but continue to keep at it! Cash will continue to roll in! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a DIFFERENT report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. If you want to generate more income, send another batch of e-mails or continue placing ads and start the whole process again! There is virtually no limit to the income you will generate from this business! Before you make your decision as to whether or not you participate in this program. Please answer one question..... DO YOU "WANT" TO CHANGE YOUR LIFE? If the answer is yes, please look at the following facts about this program: 1. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST ANYTHING TO PRODUCE! 2. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST ANYTHING TO SHIP! 3. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST YOU ANYTHING TO ADVERTISE (except for bulk mailing costs if using that method)! 4. YOU ARE UTILIZING THE POWER OF THE INTERNET AND THE POWER OF MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING TO DISTRIBUTE YOUR PRODUCT ALL OVER THE WORLD! 5. YOUR ONLY EXPENSES OTHER THAN YOUR INITIAL $25 AND BULK MAILING COST INVESTMENT IS YOUR TIME! 6. VIRTUALLY ALL OF THE INCOME YOU GENERATE FROM THIS PROGRAM IS PURE PROFIT! 7. THIS PROGRAM REALY CAN CHANGE YOUR LIFE . ******* T E S T I M O N I A L S ******* This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't work and you'll lose a lot of potential income. I'm living proof that it works. It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with little cost to you. If you do choose to participate, follow the program exactly, and you'll be on your way to financial security. Stay focused on this program, don't let yourself get distracted stay focused on this program! Steven Bardfield, Portland, OR ****************************************************** My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody, and I live in Chicago, IL. I am a cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received the program, I grumbled to Jody about receiving "junk mail." I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I "knew" it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing didn't work... well, the laugh was on me! Within two weeks, she had received over 50 responses. Within 105 days, she had received over $47,200 in $5 bills! I was shocked! I was sure that I had it all figured and that it wouldn't work. I AM a believer now. I have joined Jody in her "hobby." I did have seven more years until retirement, but I think of the "rat race" and it's not for me. We owe it all to network marketing (MLM). Mitchell Wolf MD., Chicago, IL ****************************************************** The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount of money in a short time. I was approached several times before I checked this out. I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in the first 14 weeks, with money still coming in. If you are already in the program and haven't made at least this much, its because you need to stay ACTIVE! This thing is awesome, i did it, anyone can do it! Charles Morris, Esq. *************************************************** Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back. Boy, was I surprised when I found my medium-size post office box crammed with orders! For awhile, it got so overloaded that I had to start picking up my mail at the window. I'll make more money this year than any 10 years of my life before. The nice thing about this deal is that it doesn't matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment for what it allows you, personal freedom. Paige Willis, Des Moines, IA ************************************************** I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed another program. Eleven months passed then it came...I didn't delete this one!!! I made more than $41,000. This is for real, get to work. Violet Wilson, Johnstown, PA **************************************************** We have quit our jobs, and will soon buy a home on the beach and live off the interest on our money. The only way on earth that this plan will work for you is if you do it. For your sake, and for your family's sake don't pass up this golden opportunity. Good luck and happy spending! Kerry Ford, Centerport, NY *************************************************** ORDER YOUR REPORTS AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM! *************************************************** FOR YOUR INFORMATION: If you need help with starting a business, registering a business name, learning how income tax is handled, etc., contact your local office of the Small Business Administration (a Federal agency) 1-(800)827-5722 for free help and answers to questions. Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via telephone and free seminars about business tax requirements. IT IS TOTALLY UP TO YOU NOW!!! CAN YOU HANDLE SUCCESS AND ALL THAT MONEY??? ****************************************************** Under Bills.1618 Title III passed by the 105th US Congress this letter cannot be considered spam as the sender includes contact information and a method of removal. No request for removal is necessary as this is a one time e-mail transmission. **************************************************** qmps From jamesd at echeque.com Sat Sep 1 08:32:50 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 08:32:50 -0700 Subject: The Privacy/Untraceability Sweet Spot In-Reply-To: References: <3B9007E3.23239.56AF97A@localhost> Message-ID: <3B909D32.158.2FBB72@localhost> -- Jim Choate: > > > A revolution is when one part of a populace takes up arms > > > against another part of the populace. James A. Donald: > > When Hitler authorized Krystalnacht, that was a revolution? Jim Choate: > No, that was the consequence of one that had already worked. Hitler won an election. Elections are not revolutions. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG kkhXI4hlswmw7ZHloO1eOp3cArJKup7XBtIQKClP 4EaEwV+7Cy3c4IADhTCdWkFZF1eOQINh++poiAhVB From tcmay at got.net Sat Sep 1 09:01:56 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 09:01:56 -0700 Subject: Tim's Tips on Avoiding Prosecution In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010831181443.00867460@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <200109011605.f81G51f18011@slack.lne.com> On Friday, August 31, 2001, at 06:14 PM, David Honig wrote: > At 10:41 AM 8/31/01 -0700, Tim May wrote: >> 5. At physical Cypherpunks meetings, by all means talk about politics, >> uses of technology, even "anarchic" things. But avoid being drawn into >> debates about what to do to specific politicians, judges, etc.. >> (Attendees at Bay Area meetings will know that for 9 years now we have >> had occasional heated discussions of these things, but we have avoided >> the kind of "people's tribunal" crap that helped get Bell into >> trouble.) > > Maybe *that's* the reason for holding meatings at the SFPD. > To keep everyone from naming future corpses. I certainly would never attend a Cypherpunks meeting held at a police training facility! A bizarre development in the history of Cypherpunks, that's for sure. >> However, a leader of Aryan Nation, for example, calling for his >> followers to kill Jews might cross the line ("incitement"). Their have >> been a few civil actions where the organization or its leaders were >> held >> liable for damages caused by followers who were incited to _specific_ >> actions. > > So kill David Berg might be incitement? Hmm, he was a public figure. > But "kill all Jews" could easily be justified on religious grounds > -fatwas > are protected speech. Specificity matters. If someone with some ability to influence urges his followers to "Kill Jews," and some of them begin to, expect an "incitement" (and perhaps "conspiracy") charge to stick against the speaker. If someone mere opines that Jews should be killled, protected speech. > >> After about 10 minutes of staring me down, they told me to walk to the >> closest point that was off campus and not to return. I asked about my >> car. "If you are seen on campus, you will be arrested. You can get your >> car tomorrow." (Great, since I lived 60 miles away.) > > A "fuck you" would have been appropriate, but not in your > rational self-interest. I just said very little. When they asked me for ID, I said nothing. When they asked me for my name, I said nothing. When they said they wanted to search my bag, I said "No." >> She said that students and faculty had all been dealing >> with the effects of Chelsea's arrival as a student and that the law >> school would be quite happy to handle my case if the SS or Stanford >> Sheriff's Dept. nabbed me. > > Sweet. Didn't happen, though. No arrest. Also no return gigs at her class...for whatever reason. If I recall the years right, it was in '95 that I first spoke, then in '97 when the incident occurred. We've had no contact since. Maybe I wasn't the speaker she wanted, maybe she'd heard enough from me, maybe my run-in with the Securitat was enough for her. (And Larry Lessig is now at Stanford, so maybe he's taken over teaching the cyberlaw class.) --TIm May From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Sat Sep 1 00:11:37 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 09:11:37 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: secure IRC/messaging successor In-Reply-To: <3B8FF532.E8ED45C2@zolera.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 31 Aug 2001, Rich Salz wrote: > Gale seems to have a better security story, but Jabber certainly has the > momentum and large force behind it. How does SILC http://www.silcnet.org/ fit the bill? -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From jya at pipeline.com Sat Sep 1 09:21:08 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 09:21:08 -0700 Subject: SIGINT Law in the US Message-ID: <200109011328.JAA26626@mclean.mail.mindspring.net> Lawrence Sloan writes in the Duke Law Journal http://www.law.duke.edu/shell/cite.pl?50+Duke+L.+J.+1467 ----- "The various allegations surrounding ECHELON can be roughly grouped into two categories. The first set of allegations, coming primarily from Europe, concerns the use of the ECHELON system to conduct economic espionage on behalf of American companies. The second set of allegations involves the illegal use of ECHELON to collect intelligence about American citizens. This second set of allegations will be the focus of this Note. In a society such as ours, which considers privacy and freedom from intrusive government to be fundamental values, the prospect of the American government spying on its citizens is extremely troubling. These allegations raise questions about the sufficiency of the legal restrictions placed on the collection and use of signals intelligence. The use of national intelligence assets to conduct industrial espionage for the benefit of American companies over their foreign competitors is controversial, but that issue turns primarily upon matters of policy rather than law. This Note will focus on the legal restrictions on signals intelligence (SIGINT) activities and, thus, will set aside the primarily policy-driven question of using national intelligence assets to conduct economic espionage." ----- From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sat Sep 1 09:40:26 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 09:40:26 -0700 Subject: secure IRC/messaging successor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010901093813.02f85100@idiom.com> At 06:41 PM 08/30/2001 +0200, Eugene Leitl wrote: >Gale http://www.gale.org/ seems a well thought out infrastructure. Is the >consensus "this is it", or have I missed any alternatives? Jabber seems to be emerging as the main cross-ISP instant messaging platform. I'm not sure how much security it offers, but I've heard that somebody's doing something along those lines. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sat Sep 1 09:53:38 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 09:53:38 -0700 Subject: The Privacy/Untraceability Sweet Spot In-Reply-To: <3B8E0F55.11310.49D1EA@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010827181615.023f0430@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com > Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010901094957.02f832d0@idiom.com> At 10:03 AM 08/30/2001 -0700, jamesd at echeque.com wrote: >Concerning your example of the IRA -- I recollect that for a long >time the US government allowed IRA fundraising, and use of the US >banking system for transfers to the IRA. It wasn't that the US government _allowed_ IRA fundraising, except in that the First Amendment protects such things. For a long time, the US Government hadn't banned it, though a couple of years ago Congress passed a law allowing the President to declare specific organizations to be Offical Terrorists and ban fundraising activities by or for them. I don't remember if the IRA is on the enemies list, but Hizbollah.org is. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sat Sep 1 09:59:53 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 09:59:53 -0700 Subject: Borders UK and privacy In-Reply-To: References: <20010829232844.B24387@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010901095849.02f81830@idiom.com> At 02:59 PM 08/30/2001 -0400, Duncan Frissell wrote: >How about a tailored virus that modifies your DNA on a rotating basis in >non significant fashion so that you're constantly "new". I wonder if >that would be theoretically possible? Fun times. So that _who's_ constantly new? Somebody, but would it still be you? From kwikresponse at earthlink.net Sat Sep 1 09:44:29 2001 From: kwikresponse at earthlink.net (Details Instantly) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 10:44:29 -0600 Subject: Fellow PPL associate Message-ID: <20019138669cypherpunks@minder.net> Hi: I noticed your well done ad in classifieds. As a PPL associate I'd like to introduce myself and maybe compare notes. If you'd like to do so please email me. Meanwhile check out my site that I and many other associates are using to gain a large volume of names due to the SEM system and popup windows that follow the visitor as he navigates the normal PPL site. Here's some URLs to check out� Home page w/popup http://www.free-law-central.com Associate recruiting page http://www.free-law-central.com/associate_lead.htm Focus advertising page http://www.free-law-central.com/free_will.htm To your success J.R. Orsoni 954-566-5175 P.S. If you ever want to chat live go to: http://www.free-law-central.com/associate_talk.htm 1/9/01 From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Sep 1 08:59:56 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 10:59:56 -0500 (CDT) Subject: SIG: Fwd: [PGP-USERS] ANNOUNCE: PGP Source Code Now Available For Download (fwd) Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 339 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Sep 1 09:05:02 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 11:05:02 -0500 (CDT) Subject: The Privacy/Untraceability Sweet Spot In-Reply-To: <3B909D32.158.2FBB72@localhost> Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Sep 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote: > Jim Choate: > > No, that was the consequence of one that had already worked. > > Hitler won an election. Elections are not revolutions. Actually it was the consequence of winning an election. getting a particularly important appointment, AND getting the military to swear an oath to HIM (not Germany). The election alone didn't make him Fuhrer or give him the political and legal base to execute his murders with impunity. -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rsalz at zolera.com Sat Sep 1 08:20:05 2001 From: rsalz at zolera.com (Rich Salz) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 11:20:05 -0400 Subject: secure IRC/messaging successor References: Message-ID: <3B90FCA5.B81A203D@zolera.com> > How does SILC http://www.silcnet.org/ fit the bill? For what it's worth, *I* don't know enough about it to have an opinion. I'd be curious what others think. /r$ -- Zolera Systems, Securing web services (XML, SOAP, Signatures, Encryption) http://www.zolera.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From nobody at paranoici.org Sat Sep 1 03:08:06 2001 From: nobody at paranoici.org (Anonymous) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 12:08:06 +0200 Subject: The Tim May Question Message-ID: <6b27c70a11b79df3173bf6d781338b73@paranoici.org> In another message Tim wrote: >On Sunday, August 26, 2001, at 12:11 AM, Reese wrote: >> It's easy to stay on topic, or on a topic, it's another thing to be >> appropriate. Tim is good, but easy improvement is within reach, as >> you sort of noted. > > Fuck off. I'll take constructive criticism from people who are > better writers than I, or at least in the same ballpark. > > But not from those who have left no lasting impression. I'm not sure if Reese was replying to one of my messages, but this obsession less productive posters have with Tim is peculiar. Looked at as an engineering problem, one tends to look at the underperforming components. Let's say you are running a steel mill, and the average uptime of your blast furnaces is 10%. One is 95%. Nobody would spend their time trying to get the last 5% out of the best furnace. Anybody would look at it and figure out how to get the other furnaces performing. So, some other force is at work. One candidate is the usual tedious resentment that some people feel towards people they see as smarter, more knowledgeable, and more creative than themselves. This sort of behavior is deeply repugnant to me, much more so than occasional political incorrectness. Another candidate is that certain people see Tim as somehow their leader (or something), therefore making him accountable in some way. Given that Tim is not anybody's leader and doesn't seem to want to be, this is less repugnant than it is ridiculous. From tcmay at got.net Sat Sep 1 12:20:30 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 12:20:30 -0700 Subject: News: "U.S. May Help Chinese Evade Net Censorship" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200109011923.f81JNTf18595@slack.lne.com> On Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 11:30 AM, Faustine wrote: > On Friday, August 31, 2001, at 01:27 PM, Faustine wrote: > >> On Friday, August 31, 2001, at 11:43 AM, Faustine wrote: > >> Consistent with your misconception about big computers being useful for >> brute-force cryptanalyis, > > I never said that and you know it. Nice troll, though. You did indeed. Several times you alluded to what big and powerful computers the NSA must have, the better to blow our house down. When it was pointed out to you the nature of brute-forcing a big key, and how useless computers are, you seemed not to get the point. --Tim May From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Sat Sep 1 10:45:18 2001 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 13:45:18 -0400 Subject: China Stories - US Busting Crypto Exports, Fighting Censorship by Corrupting Safeweb References: <5.0.2.1.1.20010831213451.02f6f600@idiom.com> Message-ID: <3B911EAE.2000705@dragonsweb.org> Bill Stewart wrote: > The NYT and USA Today both have articles about the > Customs busting two US Chinese guys for exporting US military crypto gear. > It's the KIV-7HS, made by our old buddies at Mykotronx (who made Clipper.) > The NYT said the Feds were worried that if the Chinese reverse > engineered it, > they'd be able to crack lots of our crypto secrets. > Normally I'd say that if that's the case, it's really shoddy crypto - > but one of the interesting things Bamford mentions in "Body of Secrets" > is that one of the US spies, I think Hansen or Walker, had been > feeding crypto keys to the Russians, so the crypto gear they got from > the Pueblo made it possible for them to crack years of messages; > perhaps they're worried about the same thing here. > Eugene Hsu of Blue Springs, MO and David Yang of Temple City CA > face a maximum penalty of 10 years in jail and $1M fine. > > Meanwhile, the NYT had a front-page story that one of the > US propaganda agencies is proposing to help fight censorship in China > by promoting Safeweb, which is partly funded by In-Q-It, the CIA venture > fund. > They've apparently got about 100 servers, and the Triangle Boy feature > makes it possible for them to keep changing IP addresses to make > blocking harder. I assume if there are also Chinese Spies using it, > the CIA will be able to get the operators to rat out their identities... > But the main use will be to feed lots of news into China. > I'd already mistrusted Safeweb - not their honesty, but their technology, > since they require you to enable Javascript to use their tools. > Yes, it makes it easy to write cool and powerful tools, > but even if _their_ Javascript is perfectly secure, > the fact that you need to have it turned on leaves you vulnerable > whenever you read other web pages. (Also, their Javascript is slightly > buggy; > I've had trouble with window size and positioning issues.) > > A third China Card in the news is the GAO's announcement that they > suspect that Code Red originated at a university in Guangdong. > Keith Rhodes, GAO's chief technologist, gave written testimony to > the House Government Reform subcommittee, but didn't return US Today's > calls. > Of course, the real blame belongs to Microsoft - and US Today, > who are getting surprisingly technical this week, has a couple of articles > about the recent Hotmail/Passport hacks, in which security consultant > and former Yahoo security advisor Jeremiah Grossman, who had recently > cracked Hotmail in three lines of code, now has it down to one line... > This is another cross-site scripting attack. > > Pretty short-sighted if CRII is a Chinese govt. intel operation. Looking through my logs I see scans from rooted boxes in Guangdong. As well as hundreds of locations all around the world. A number of Middle Eastern locations, for instance. Unless they're all honeypots, they're giving as much as they're getting. If this supposition is true, which I doubt. Could have been anybody, and no particular reason to single out China over any other potential culprit. Nope, no telling who, and more importantly, no point worrying about it, since everybody and his brother that's wont is exploiting it. Just chalk it up to entropy and deal with it. I'm wondering if that Mykotronx box couldn't have done more guod for U.S. intel if it *had* gone to China, but I'm not familiar enough with it to know. Unless the recipient was planning to set up a counterfeit assembly line or something. In which case I wouldn't be too happy if I were Mykotronx. Since Mykotronx is getting press, I will put in a word for Bytex, which also makes encrypting ATM firewalls and such. You can get a way-cool Leo Marks WWII Silk Code mousepad from their website, http://www.bytex.com, in exchange for your sekrit personal info. jbdigriz From tcmay at got.net Sat Sep 1 14:21:46 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 14:21:46 -0700 Subject: Moral Crypto In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200109012124.f81LOlf18960@slack.lne.com> On Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 01:30 PM, Nomen Nescio wrote: > On 31 Aug 2001, at 12:13, georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote: >> On 31 Aug 2001, at 19:50, Nomen Nescio wrote: >>> This means that the operators >>> choose to whom they will market and sell their services. >> >> Here I disagree completely. I think in a properly designed >> anonymity system the users will be, well, anonymous, and >> it should be impossible to tell any more about them than that they >> pay their bills on time. Certainly most potential users would balk at >> requirements that they prove who they were and justify their desire >> to use such a system, since that would tend to defeat the purpose. > > Yes and no. The users aren't all that anonymous, or they wouldn't need > anonymous technologies, would they? The remailer network sees where > this message originates. If you use Zero Knowledge software, their > network knows exactly who is using it at any time. If a digital cash > bank came into existence, payments transferred into the digital system > from outside would largely be from identified sources. What can I say? You clearly don't understand: -- how remailer _networks_ work (Hint: nested encryption...all the first remailer sees when he opens a message is an encrypted message he can't read and instructions on which remailer to send it to next, and so on. Only if most/all remailers collaborate can the route be followed by them.) -- how Freedom works (Hint: They say that even they cannot know who is using it, except in terms of network usage. Which with cover traffic, forwarding of other traffic, dummy messages, etc., means the fact that Alice was using the network during a period of time does not mean they know which exit messages are hers.) -- blinding. (Hint: That Alice deposits money into a digital bank, and is identified by the bank, does not mean the bank knows who received digital money from Alice, because Alice unblinds the note before spending it--or redeeming it.) > The real issue is the clause above about "market and sell". This was > the original point raised by Tim May: what markets do we select? You have several times attempted to corral me into your "which markets are moral, which do we focus on?" point. I only cited several obvious examples (discussed _many_ times here, e.g., the distribution of birth control info in Islamic countries, e.g., dissidents in a corrupt regime (ZOG), etc.) because some of the newcomers seem so unimaginative and ill-informed that they were whining about how untraceability only helps criminals, perverts, and terrrorists. This does _not_ mean I have issued any kind of call for people to work on "moral" uses, and I wish you would stop using my name in support of your moral crusade. One man's supplier of the herb is another man's drug dealer. One man's erotica creator is another man's pervert. One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. These are all obvious points discussed many hundreds of times on this list. > His whiteboard exercise teaches that you need to identify, select and > target particular markets which make sense. And if you care about the > world you are creating, that's where the moral issue comes in. It means the markets are further out from the "dollar ghetto" than many people think. And the further out from the origin (0,0), the more heated the debate becomes about terrorists, perverts, tax evaders, and so on. >> I don't think it serves >> any purpose to discuss who constitute "valiant freedom fighters >> resisting a tyrannical government" and who are "bloody terrorist >> fanatics attempting to overthrow a benign legitimate government >> and replace it wth a worse one" in this forum. We may have strong >> opinions on this matter as individuals, but it is completely >> unreasonable to expect us to come to any kind of consensus as a >> group. > > Nonsense. Most participants in this forum DO share common philosophical > goals: the preservation and enhancement of individual freedom via > technological means. This is our common heritage. People make moral > judgements every single day on this list based on exactly this > framework. > And it is this moral view which tells us that bin Laden and his > terrorist > groups are not the market which we should target in order to advance > these goals. > How about McVeigh? How about The Real IRA? How about John Brown? How about Patrick Henry/ How about Cuban exiles? (By the way, everyone should know about the time an anti-Castro group blew up a Cuban airliner. Terrorists, freedom fighters, or just a bunch who wants to be in control?) I spoke of dissident-grade untraceability, identical to pedophile-grade untraceability. Not to support either dissdents or pedophiles, but to provide a handle on just how good this untraceability must be so as to protect dissidents from arrest and execution and pedophiles from arrest and imprisonment (or execution in Islamic regimes). > Surely not. Morality plays a part in everything we do. We have goals > in common. We should structure our efforts so that they are in > accordance > with our highest goals. Having principles is nothing to be ashamed of. > We all have them, and we should be proud of that. From your words, I doubt you support the same goals I support. In any case, please stop invoking my name in support of your "moral crypto" points. --Tim May From a3495 at cotse.com Sat Sep 1 11:30:00 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 14:30:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: News: "U.S. May Help Chinese Evade Net Censorship" Message-ID: On Friday, August 31, 2001, at 01:27 PM, Faustine wrote: > On Friday, August 31, 2001, at 11:43 AM, Faustine wrote: >> Tim wrote: >>> But, as with Kirchoff's point, the attacker is going to get the design >>> eventually. >> If getting the design "eventually" were good enough, why the keen >> interest in putting in a large order for the beta? There's a reason. >> Perhaps the NSA wanted to use the product without making illegal >> copies? >> Your earlier point (that they wished to reverse-engineer the product) >> is in fact undermined by this fact that they bought N copies. > > Unless you believe reverse engineering is only useful for making pirated > copies, there's no reason to assume any sort of contradiction at all. > > As if the NSA would use anything from the private sector they didn't > know inside out. >Consistent with your misconception about big computers being useful for >brute-force cryptanalyis, I never said that and you know it. Nice troll, though. > it appears you also believe the myth about the >mighty NSA knowing more than the private sector. >You _really_ need to get an education on these matters. Are you actually claiming NSA implements COTS technology completely straight off-the-shelf? And what do any of these "you poopy head whippersnapper" comments have to do with the fact that you found a contradiction where there was none? Boss Tom Turkey in full strut. ~Faustine. From tcmay at got.net Sat Sep 1 14:47:16 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 14:47:16 -0700 Subject: Using supercomputers to break interesting ciphers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200109012150.f81LoKf19044@slack.lne.com> On Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 01:53 PM, Faustine wrote: > Tim Wrote: >>> On Friday, August 31, 2001, at 11:43 AM, Faustine wrote: >> >>> Consistent with your misconception about big computers being useful >>> for >>> brute-force cryptanalyis, >> >> I never said that and you know it. Nice troll, though. > >> You did indeed. Several times you alluded to what big and powerful >> computers the NSA must have, the better to blow our house down. When it >> was pointed out to you the nature of brute-forcing a big key, and how >> useless computers are, you seemed not to get the point. > > Oh, well that might have a little something to do with the fact that I > never made the point that brute-forcing keys was the way big and > powerful > NSA computers are going to blow our house down, mightn't it. The fact > that "brute-forcing keys" was the only thing you could think of when you > saw my phrase "interesting possibilities for cryptographic applications" > and then chose to fixate on proving what a damn poopy head > whippersnapper I > am instead of deigning to bother over what methods I meant to refer to > is > indicative of your own limitations, not mine. You are now backpedaling furiously away from your "common to newbies" claim that fast computers might be used to break ciphers. Here's a chunk of dialog from an August 8 post of yours: (comments after ">" are from Tim) >Except when was the last time you heard of a Cypherpunks-interesting >cipher being broken with _any_ amount of computer crunching? "Since when did people stop trying? The last time I heard a researcher talk about trying to break a Cypherpunks-interesting cipher was last Thursday." This, and similar comments you made about the Sandia and IBM supercomputers, clearly imply you think one of the uses of these supercomputers is to "try" to break what I called Cypherpunks-interesting ciphers. Many who are exposed to crypto to the first time, and who haven't thought about the issue of factoring large numbers, simply "assume" that a worthwhile goal is to "try" ("Since when did people stop trying?") to break such ciphers with faster computers. (To be sure, there are interesting projects on faster factoring methods, better quadratic sieves, searches for Mersenne primes, all that good number theory stuff. Some of it is even being done at Sandia. But this is a far cry from the common belief that Cypherpunks-interesting ciphers may fall to attacks with mere supercomputers. Do the math on what a trillion such Sandia computers could do if they ran for a billion years...then realize there are keys already in use today which cannot be attacked by brute-force (or probably any other direct means) with all of the computer power that the universe could ever support. Mind-boggling, but I realized this via some calculations just after starting to look closely at RSA.) You are now backpedalling, claiming you never meant this. Similar to the way you claimed "if someone else is convinced it's interesting enough to be willing to food the power bill (as I had anticipated would be the case)," well AFTER I posted an article pointing out that the power bill alone for running older Pentiums and G3s would pay for faster new CPUs to make the old DIY machines a waste of time. Fact is, you HADN'T "anticipated" this...you saw my calculations of watts and MIPS and only _then_ did you retroactively "anticipate" that power concerns make such arrays of old machines a lose. Check the archives. When some adds a gratuitous "As I had anticipated would be the case" under these circumstance we know we are in the presence of a faker. --Tim May From a3495 at cotse.com Sat Sep 1 12:19:42 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 15:19:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: News: 'U.S. May Help Chinese Evade Net Censorship' In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010831183757.03a22020@pop3.norton.antivirus> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20010831183757.03a22020@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: Greg wrote: > At 05:31 PM 8/31/2001 -0400, Faustine wrote: >>Sure. But to what extent can you collaborate without a)approaching >>full- blown collusion or b) getting taken for a ride in spite of your >>best efforts? > > When you talk about "collaborating" and ZKS selling beta software to > the NSA, are you saying you've got information that ZKS gave the NSA > access to more information than the general public got, and/or that > the NSA got their access or information meaningfully earlier than the > general public? > If that's the case, that's interesting, but that's too serious a claim > to let pass by as an unstated implication. Actually, it would be far more more informative to get them to explain exactly what happened instead of relying on third-party empty hearsay and hot air from me, since honestly that's all I've got. But I'm sure there are a lot of reasons--some of them contractural--you'll never hear the whole story. Especially given that you'll never get anything more than loose talk from the other side. My personal opinion is that collusion or not, they got taken for a ride. And if it's not worth much, so be it. ~Faustine. From a3495 at cotse.com Sat Sep 1 13:12:25 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 16:12:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Jim Bell sentenced to 10 years in prison In-Reply-To: <3B901607.23698.5A2392D@localhost> References: <3B901607.23698.5A2392D@localhost> Message-ID: Jim wrote: > On 31 Aug 2001, at 15:21, Faustine wrote: >> Bah, it's dangerous to be so sure. And all the fevered talk >> about Aimee being a fed is hysterical. > Feds tend to stick out in the same way she does. That does not > prove she is a fed of course, it is not even particularly good > evidence that she is a fed, but there are feds on this list. All I'm saying is that if the feds are doing their job well, they won't stick out at all. Smells like a witch hunt. >> Haven't you ever gone to a usenet group and baited people just >> for the hell of it because you were bored? > > She does not know enough about us to bait us correctly -- she > also issues appeasing win-their-confidence stuff, and it is the > wrong stuff. That incompetent buttering up very fed like > behavior. Someone who does not know enough to issue the right > win-their-confidence stuff usually does not care enough to issue > win-their-confidence stuff. Of course it could be she is merely > incompetently trying to douse the flames she has incompetently > raised. Anyone who comes here and regularly expresses unpopular opinions in a provocative way is generally--almost by definition--"not liked". And if you don't like someone, you tend to interpret anything they do in the light of your not liking them. I can't help but think that since the topics being discussed here are so sensitive, everyone gets a little twitchy and runs the risk of going overboard in the way they perceive "dissenters" who are at odds with the prevailing wisdom. Actually, I think the group would be better off if more people were around to goad everyone into clarifying their thoughts and articulating them succinctly and persuasively. Couldn't hurt. Believe it or not, Choate is doing everyone a favor. And even if a whole gang of feds were actively trolling the group, what difference would it make as long as everyone has enough sense to see through it and keep their heads on straight? In a sick and perverse sense, you might call it Darwinian justice. Also, the "but they're wasting our time" angle is easily circumvented by having the self-discipline not to write knee-jerk replies to obvious nonsense. Some people never learn... >The distinctive characteristic of an undercover fed is > that they are pretending to be someone they are not, and doing it > badly, confused about what their role is, and uninformed of how > real people in that role act -- for example her recent flame > againt ZKS. Real people who are really concerned about the > security of ZKS, and really hate and fear the NSA, do not talk > like that. I must have missed it. Unless you think I'm one of her nyms, you might noticed I've had some unkind words for ZKS myself. Becuase as much as I fear the NSA, I fear gullibility and stupidity among the well-intentioned even more. And if saying so makes for a more entertaining debate, well, so much the better. > Now quite possibly she is just upset by getting continually > flamed, and is just putting on a rather bad act to persuade us > she is on our side. But putting on a rather bad act is also > something feds do. Incompetent acting is does not mean one is a > fed, but if one is a fed, it means one acts incompetently. True, but if she really is incompetent, she's hardly a threat, is she. The only feds to really worry about are the competent ones. ~Faustine. From nobody at dizum.com Sat Sep 1 07:40:05 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 16:40:05 +0200 (CEST) Subject: U.S. May Help Chinese Evade Net Censorship Message-ID: <512948aaaddfefa8777779d9820bdf2d@dizum.com>  AUG 30, 2001 U.S. May Help Chinese Evade Net Censorship By JENNIFER 8. LEE he United States government agencies that once tried to breach the Iron Curtain with radio broadcasts are taking the information war to the Internet, hoping to finance an American-based computer network designed to thwart attempts by the Chinese government to censor the World Wide Web for users in China. Government officials and private architects of the plan say the program would be financed by the International Broadcasting Bureau, parent agency of the Voice of America, which has been presenting the American view abroad � mostly by radio � for decades. It would mark a significant expansion of the long-running information war between China and the United States. The agency is in advanced discussions with Safeweb, a small company based in Emeryville, Calif., which has received financing from the venture capital arm of the Central Intelligence Agency, In-Q-Tel. The discussions were confirmed by parties on both sides. Safeweb currently runs its own worldwide network of about 100 privacy servers � computers that help disguise what Web sites a user is seeking to view � which are popular with users in China. The privacy servers have been a continuing target for the Chinese government, which has blocked most of them in recent weeks. The bureau would provide money for new computers to run Safeweb software specifically tailored for the Chinese audience and intended to be more resistant to blocking by the government. It would also cover some of the costs of network bandwidth to carry the the Internet traffic, but would not act as host for the computers itself. The plan would initially pay for around a dozen computers, with an option to grow to a larger number after the new federal fiscal year begins on Oct. 1. The project would be financed from a Congressional allocation of $5 million last year intended to improve broadcasting to China, including both Internet and radio. Of that $5 million, $800,000 was approved for "Internet and multimedia enhancement," some of which is scheduled for use on this project. "We recognized that we have an obligation to reach out to our audience in ways that are effective, that includes the Internet," said Tish King, a spokeswoman for the International Broadcasting Bureau. To that end, Voice of America also started VOANews.com to make news available worldwide on the Internet. Currently, audio broadcasts in over 53 languages are streamed live and archived on the site. Text is archived in almost all the languages. Voice of America has been developing an Internet strategy to reach an audience in China with a daily newsletter in Chinese that is e- mailed to 180,000 people and a Chinese-language news Web site. In addition to a Chinese-language Web site, Radio Free Asia also maintains Web sites aimed at ethnic minority groups in China like Tibetans and Uighurs, who are concentrated in the northwest region of Xinjiang. But the Chinese government has sporadically jammed the radio broadcasts from Voice of America since 1989 and from Radio Free Asia since 1997, a year after it began, specifically those in Mandarin and Tibetan. The government has also blocked the Chinese-language Web sites of Voice of America since 1997 and Radio Free Asia almost since it began in 1998. For Chinese leaders, the Internet is a doubled-edged sword, a rapidly evolving medium that brings economic opportunity but remains beyond complete control. Internet use in China is growing dramatically, seeping from urban universities and businesses to homes and affordable Internet cafes all over the country. The Chinese government estimates there were over 26 million Internet users in July, compared to only 9 million at the end of 1999. Periodically, the government tries new ways to tighten control, including police raids. Since April the government has waged a campaign to shut down thousands of unlicensed Internet cafes, and the government has publicized the arrests of over a dozen "Internet dissidents" over the last three years. The government maintains an elaborate set of rules that requires Internet service providers to electronically filter content that may be pornographic, anti-government, violent, unhealthy or superstitious. Among sites that are blocked for the vast majority of users are those of The Washington Post (news/quote), Amnesty International and various sites identifying with the Falun Gong spiritual movement, which the Chinese government has accused of being a cult. However, users can access other news sites including ABCnews.com, the British Broadcasting Corporation and USA Today. Until early this month, the site for The New York Times (news/quote) on the Web was blocked. The blocking was lifted after an interview with President Jiang Zemin by top editors at The Times in which President Jiang was specifically questioned about the blocking of the site. Chinese Web users have nevertheless found methods to get around the censorship. In a recent study by researchers at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences in Beijing, more than a quarter of Internet users admitted to occasionally using Internet proxy computers, which work similarly to those of Safeweb, while 10 percent admitted to frequent use. That was much higher than was expected, said Guo Liang, one of the researchers. Among the most popular masquerade services is Safeweb, an 18- month-old company. The technology, dubbed Triangle Boy (after a character in an episode of the sitcom "Seinfeld"), can fool an electronic filter into thinking Web content is coming from a benign computer server instead of a blocked site like Human Rights Watch. But the service has become a target for the Chinese government, which has engaged in a cat-and- mouse game with Safeweb, blacklisting the Triangle Boy servers themselves. "They are becoming increasingly aggressive," said Stephen Hsu, chief executive of Safeweb. "We get these frantic emails from users saying they are totally cut off now." In addition, Safeweb says, the Chinese government is now blocking e- mail sent to users who request Triangle Boy e-mail addresses. As a response, Safeweb is encouraging users to sign up for free Web-based e- mail accounts at non-Chinese services like Hotmail and Yahoo (news/quote). Part of the proposal being financed by the International Broadcasting Bureau would have the Triangle Boy servers change their Internet addresses on a regular basis � perhaps as frequently as every few hours � to make them more difficult for the Chinese government to find and block. Despite government efforts to rein in the Internet, it is playing an emerging political role in China. The study by the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, one of the most rigorous Internet studies in China to date, found that 67.5 percent of adult users believe the Internet gives people more opportunity to criticize government policies. And more than 74 percent agree the Internet allows people to "express their political views" and to learn about politics. "We want to force the Chinese government to accept the pro-democracy consequences of the Internet," said Dr. Hsu. "Up until now the Chinese government has been amazingly successful at having their cake and eating it too." Copyright 2001 The New York Times Company From mixmaster at remailer.segfault.net Sat Sep 1 07:41:17 2001 From: mixmaster at remailer.segfault.net (Anonymous Coredump) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 16:41:17 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Anonymous Posting Message-ID: Tim May wrote: > I don't recall the context, but I don't have any such friends or > even acquaintances. Even those I know on the Far Right don't want to > kill _all_ Jews, just the pesky freedom-stealing ones, and the > millions who form the Zionist Occupation Government in the Zionist > Entity of ZOG-Occupied Palestine. This was the remark I had in mind: Tim May wrote on August 16, 2001: > (I know folks who think Judaism is in fact far worse, and who hope > and pray for the day when 4 million Jews in Occupied Palestine are > rounded up and liquidated. I take no position on this... I see now that "all Jews" mischaracterized your statement. My apologies. > Add nerve gases and biological agents to the mix over the next > several years. Cuts both ways, of course. If the past is any guide, mostly the innocent would die. > And I won't shed a tear, as those who left New York and Oslo and > Berlin and Phoenix to go to some tiny patch of land which they claim > YHWH the Terrible granted to the sons of a desert minor > potentate--this all revealed in a hash dream by an old man, > allegedly--well, they were fools in 1948 to kick Arabs off of their > farms and out of their homes. The Jews will suffer mightily. Which > might be all they really want, oy vey! I've known very few Jewish people who believe God gave them Israel, but it clearly has something to do with why that particular patch of land was chosen. Maybe it's the Schelling point of Zionism. The area is symbolically loaded for Jewish people, but the downside is that it's important to other people as well. Most Israelis that I've known see the religiously based Zionists as crazies, especially the ones from the U.S. Saying that Israelis are a certain way because there are people in Israel with certain views is as reasonable as saying that Jim Bell is a good guide to the cypherpunks. The exact nature of Zionism seems hard to pin down, sort of like defining a "cypherpunk". It is clear that many Zionists are not religious. > And I know many people who support, as I do of course, the right of > Aryan Nation(s) to do their thing without lawsuits from offended > Jews and liberals. Last I heard, Aryan Nation(s) was not building > any gas chambers. Shutting down the "organization" due to, for > example, the murder of Allan Berg in Denver makes no more moral or > legal sense than shutting down the Catholics because some Catholics > have bombed abortion clinics. Agreed. Many prominent Catholics have publicly declared that abortion is murder. Applying the same level of integrity as has been applied in criminal trials of technical people, this could be seen as incitement. What is insidious about charging people with organizational involvement is that it bypasses the criminal justice system. The organization itself doesn't stand trial. At the same time the members are not charged with any specfic crime. Thus, the trial can consist of little more than innuendo and the defendant stands a good chance of conviction. It is very close to simple political repression. > The Jews lacked their equivalent of a Reformation, the Lutheran and > Calvinist revolution in thinking which laid the groundwork for the > modern age. And instead of moving on, embracing the future, many of > them retreated to a desert land they thought of as their historic > homeland, never mind that more Polish blood flowed through the veins > of Jews born in Krakow than blood from their ancestors who fled or > otherwise left Palestine 1500 or more years ago. But aren't you the one bringing up the racial purity theory here? I've never known a Jewish person, and I've known many, who spent any time worrying about the genetic purity of their Jewish descent. Presumably they exist somewhere, but the breed is rare. Some Jewish people do seem to have long discussions about "What is a Jew (sic)?", but they do not seem to be genetically driven. I am having a little difficulty understanding what you mean by "embracing the future". This strikes me as a straw man, but perhaps I'm not getting your point. The Jewish community, even the Jewish religious community, does not seem to have had any problem accepting scientific discoveries, which one could describe as "embracing the future". Many Christians, Protestant and otherwise, have had serious problems in this department. For example, the theory of evolution was accepted without a fuss. Even in Jewish religious schools, the theory of evolution is taught. I think the idea behind going to Palestine and founding Israel was to find a way to not be murdered any more. After over 1000 years of abuse ending with 2/3 of the group being killed, it doesn't seem unreasonable that many of the survivors would conclude that it was unsafe to live among Europeans. My guess is that they figured they could just sort of push the Arabs aside and after a bit of fuss, everybody would get used to the idea and they'd have a country where they would have full political rights and even own land without fears of confiscation. Most peoples have done exactly the same thing at some time or other. And, there was already a sizeable Jewish population in Palestine. Do you believe that Jewish activities along these lines are more offensive than similar activities by many other people? If so, do you find them offensive because they are so recent, or is it just the unpleasant fact that American money is contributing to it? > I don't care too much if Arabs and Jews are killing each other, but > I hate like hell to see taxpayer money and armaments shipped to > ZOG-Occupied Palestine to help kill more Arabs and expand ZOG > borders. Agreed. I have better things to do with my money, too. Here's my somewhat uninformed take on the Middle East: Anything the U.S. is doing there is going to be related to oil. Support of Israel gives the U.S. cards to play with the oil producing countries. If the oil producing companies are uncooperative, Israel gets new cool weapons. If they are cooperative, then the U.S. news media start talking about the bad things the Israelis are doing. When the oil producing countries complain, the answer is probably that the Jewish lobby is so powerful that the U.S. has to support the Israelis. I believe that the Jewish lobby is powerful only to the extent that they are allowed to be. If they stood in the way of U.S. policy to any significant extent, they would be curtailed. Israel also plays a useful role for the oil producing governments - they help keep the population unified. A great deal of money flowing into the area does not benefit the populations of the countries there. For example, half of adult male Saudis are illiterate. Keeping those people focused on Israel keeps them from noticing where the money is going. Also, the rulers can accuse detractors of being Israeli spies. I do not think U.S. support for Israel has much to do with post-Holocaust compassion or with the desire to support a democracy in the Middle East or with the Jewish lobby. > And I am offended--but also amused--by the irony of European Jews > recapitulating Hitler's "lebensraum" and "Endlosung" solutions so > soon after WW II ended. Yes, Jacobo Timerman ("Prisoner Without a Name, Cell Without a Number") said the same thing a few years after he fled to Israel from Argentina. He made himself somewhat unpopular by questioning the propriety of the invasion of Lebanon. Some Israelis felt he was ungrateful. Sort of interesting because the original idea was that everybody Jewish could consider themselves Israeli and therefore gratitude would not be in order. (A comparison could be made to the Palestinian situation with respect to their alleged brother Arabs.) Anyway, there is probably a well understood psychological phenomenon at work. Once somebody is abused, they will tend to find somebody else, hopefully subordinate, to mistreat. I've wondered whether this effect isn't related to explain Henry Kissinger's criminality. Kissinger lost two relatives in the Holocaust, but in his political career he associated with and backed people with less than pristine credentials. For example, Nixon had connections to war criminals associated with the Rumanian Iron Guard. The military regimes Kissinger encouraged in South America tended to have people with a certain admiration for the Third Reich. The policies pursued in Southeast Asia bear certain similarities to those of the Nazis. Timerman, incidentally, described himself as Zionist. >> People carp about Tim, but I'd like to see anybody try to do one >> Tim May quality post every day for two weeks. > Thanks, even if you're a Jew-lover. Literally the truth, although not exclusively. ;-) From a3495 at cotse.com Sat Sep 1 13:53:31 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 16:53:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: News: "U.S. May Help Chinese Evade Net Censorship" Message-ID: Tim Wrote: >> On Friday, August 31, 2001, at 11:43 AM, Faustine wrote: > >> Consistent with your misconception about big computers being useful for >> brute-force cryptanalyis, > > I never said that and you know it. Nice troll, though. >You did indeed. Several times you alluded to what big and powerful >computers the NSA must have, the better to blow our house down. When it >was pointed out to you the nature of brute-forcing a big key, and how >useless computers are, you seemed not to get the point. Oh, well that might have a little something to do with the fact that I never made the point that brute-forcing keys was the way big and powerful NSA computers are going to blow our house down, mightn't it. The fact that "brute-forcing keys" was the only thing you could think of when you saw my phrase "interesting possibilities for cryptographic applications" and then chose to fixate on proving what a damn poopy head whippersnapper I am instead of deigning to bother over what methods I meant to refer to is indicative of your own limitations, not mine. ~Faustine. From ericm at lne.com Sat Sep 1 17:25:36 2001 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 17:25:36 -0700 Subject: The Privacy/Untraceability Sweet Spot In-Reply-To: <3B8FE4A7.20004.CBABBDB@localhost>; from georgemw@speakeasy.net on Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 07:25:27PM -0700 References: ; <20010831170705.A15046@slack.lne.com> <3B8FE4A7.20004.CBABBDB@localhost> Message-ID: <20010901172536.A19358@slack.lne.com> On Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 07:25:27PM -0700, georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote: > On 31 Aug 2001, at 17:07, Eric Murray wrote: > > > The various CDRs should deal with this-- they keep track of > > which Message-IDs they have posted, and don't post messages > > that they have already posted. They do pass those messages > > on to the other CDRs that they peer with though, so by posting > > two messages you're adding to the number of messages > > that get sent on the "backbone"... > > > > Is it possible to set things up so that duplicate messages are > filtered out based on a message digest rather than a message ID? Just about anything is possible. > I'm dumb as a post and have no clue how message IDs are > generated in the first place, but it seems to this simpleton that > any hash function on the message body would be guarenteed to > catch duplicate messages. Message-ID is generated by the originating MTA (that's the ISP's sendmail or whatever program they're using to send mail). It's supposed to be unique-- it's often something like 200109012124.f81LObL18955 at slack.lne.com where there's a date component (200109012124) and the sending machine's name, so that it's unique in a global namespace. Of course there's nothing keeping someone from sending mail with whatever message-id they want, assuming that they can control their sending MTA. The reason that it's used for identifying already posted messages is that procmail, which the CDR system is based on, has a nice built-in hook for keeping a message-id database and identifying duplicates. Eric From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Sep 1 15:54:05 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 17:54:05 -0500 Subject: The History Place - Triumph of Hitler Message-ID: <3B91670D.249AC7D5@ssz.com> http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/triumph/tr-fuehrer.htm -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From georgemw at speakeasy.net Sat Sep 1 17:55:11 2001 From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 17:55:11 -0700 Subject: The Privacy/Untraceability Sweet Spot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3B9120FF.6554.118E74B2@localhost> Having read Tim's reply already, I'll confine myself to a point he didn't address. On 1 Sep 2001, at 22:30, Nomen Nescio wrote: > It's true that this does not directly impact the design. But we can't > ignore the question, is this a market we want to pursue. For example, > there are any number of papers on key escrow systems, or "fair" electronic > cash (where only the government can trace it). Legitimate businesses > might well be willing to use such systems. So there is profit to be made, > all the more profit since the government is less likely to hassle you. Note, however, that this IS a question of design, not merely one of marketing. The system doesn't know "terrorists" from "freedom fighters". The system doesn't know pornographers from Falun Gongers. A system does (or at least could) know clients who want to send megabytes of data from ones who only want top send a few bits. It does know clients who insist on real-time or near real-time transmission from ones who would accept substantial transmission delay times. It knows clients who insist their system be free and trivial to use from those willing to spend a fair amount and go to a certain degree of effort to make damn sure they're doing things right. It knows the difference between broadcasting and person-to-person communication. And it knows whether clients are willing to accept the idea that some "trusted third party" could compromise their identity, or whether they trust no one. > Would you say that discussions of such technologies would and should be > encouraged on the cypherpunks list? Certainly they should be "discussed", if only to point out what's wrong with them, or speculate how the escrow mechanism might be defeated or compromised. >That it doesn't matter whether this > helps us in or long-term goal or not? > Long-term consequences are notoriously hard to predict. For example, it's quite possible somebody who develops and implements a digital cash system with some sort of key escrow mechanism might be doing the world a big favor, since cloning it and cutting out the escrow part might be a lot easier than developing a similar system from scratch. Or maybe not, as I said, hard to say. > Surely not. Morality plays a part in everything we do. We have goals > in common. We should structure our efforts so that they are in accordance > with our highest goals. Having principles is nothing to be ashamed of. > We all have them, and we should be proud of that. > OK. Freedom=good. Tyranny=bad. Now that we've agreed on moral principles, time to move on. George From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Sep 1 16:04:48 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 18:04:48 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Moral Crypto In-Reply-To: <200109012124.f81LOlf18960@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Sep 2001, Tim May wrote: > What can I say? You clearly don't understand: > > -- how remailer _networks_ work (Hint: nested encryption...all the first > remailer sees when he opens a message is an encrypted message he can't > read and instructions on which remailer to send it to next, and so on. > Only if most/all remailers collaborate can the route be followed by > them.) You can't make, or assume this as a universal. It may be that by using crypto on the first leg it sets flags off for Mallet. The data may have to be sent out in stego or some other format. The utility of inter-anon remialer crypto using a seperate layer does provide major utility with respect to stopping further identity leaks as well as breaking simple traffic analysis. However, if the remailers require any sort of 'instructions' then these must be in the clear, or at least use a key set different than the user/remailer. These leak information in that initial connection. If they have universal access to the network then some level of analysis can be executed without collaboration from any of the remailers. -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From gbroiles at well.com Sat Sep 1 18:21:42 2001 From: gbroiles at well.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 18:21:42 -0700 Subject: News: 'U.S. May Help Chinese Evade Net Censorship' In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20010831183757.03a22020@pop3.norton.antivirus> <5.1.0.14.2.20010831183757.03a22020@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010901180856.03e935e0@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 03:19 PM 9/1/2001 -0400, Faustine wrote: > > > > When you talk about "collaborating" and ZKS selling beta software to > > the NSA, are you saying you've got information that ZKS gave the NSA > > access to more information than the general public got, and/or that > > the NSA got their access or information meaningfully earlier than the > > general public? > >Actually, it would be far more more informative to get them to explain >exactly what happened instead of relying on third-party empty hearsay and >hot air from me, since honestly that's all I've got. But I'm sure there are >a lot of reasons--some of them contractural--you'll never hear the whole >story. Especially given that you'll never get anything more than loose talk >from the other side. Well, if all you've got is hearsay and hot air, then I think it's unfair to tag them with words like "collaborator" or suggest that they're not trustworthy - those are pretty serious allegations to make. I'm aware of examples of cryptosystems and companies which were compromised by intelligence agencies - and also aware of baseless FUD and conspiracy theories spun against uncompromised software unfairly. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at well.com "We have found and closed the thing you watch us with." -- New Delhi street kids From mshoe200 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 1 19:59:14 2001 From: mshoe200 at yahoo.com ((na) mshoe) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 19:59:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: my name and address Message-ID: <20010902025914.30306.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com> Every now and again I do a search of my name just to see what comes up and I recently saw a post of my name an address at this url http://www.shmoo.com/mail/cypherpunks/may01/msg00077.shtml. I was wondering if you could please erase this for two reasons, one I do not live at that address anymore and two I stopped sending the chain letter 3 months ago, so there is no use for my personal information to be on the net anymore. Thank-You Mitch __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sat Sep 1 20:02:10 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 20:02:10 -0700 Subject: News: "U.S. May Help Chinese Evade Net Censorship" In-Reply-To: <3B8F5D34.21690.2D03FB9@localhost> References: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010901195611.02f88990@idiom.com> At 09:47 AM 08/31/2001 -0700, jamesd at echeque.com wrote: > -- >On 30 Aug 2001, at 14:52, Faustine wrote: > > And as long as you have companies like ZeroKnowledge who are > > willing/gullible/greedy/just plain fucking stupid enough to > > sell their betas to the NSA, you never will. > >There is nothing wrong with selling betas to the NSA. I make my >crypto source code available to the NSA, and to everyone else. >Everyone should do this. Anyone that fails to do that is up to >no good. The difference between Real Open Source and giving copies to the NSA is that Real Open Source users will often send YOU the bug reports instead of just keeping them to themselves :-) But yes, if you're giving away free betas, the NSA can have them too. And if you're doing the "$49 for 5 nyms" deal, they can buy them too, whether they admit that they're doing it or whether you just get orders from the Maryland Procurement Office or a credit card belonging to R.Canine, Columbia MD. The more interesting question is NSA's access to the server software. If they want it badly enough, and don't want to admit it, there's probably some small ISP with In-Q-It funding out there. 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This email is sent to you as this email address is associated with the opt-in member "oddodoodo" on http://adultfriendfinder.com. To remove yourself from the mailing list, please log into Adultfriendfinder.com with your handle and password. *************************************************************** From nobody at dizum.com Sat Sep 1 11:30:04 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 20:30:04 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Anonymous Posting Message-ID: Tim May wrote: > I don't recall the context, but I don't have any such friends or > even acquaintances. Even those I know on the Far Right don't want to > kill _all_ Jews, just the pesky freedom-stealing ones, and the > millions who form the Zionist Occupation Government in the Zionist > Entity of ZOG-Occupied Palestine. This was the remark I had in mind: Tim May wrote on August 16, 2001: > (I know folks who think Judaism is in fact far worse, and who hope > and pray for the day when 4 million Jews in Occupied Palestine are > rounded up and liquidated. I take no position on this... I see now that "all Jews" mischaracterized your statement. My apologies. > Add nerve gases and biological agents to the mix over the next > several years. Cuts both ways, of course. If the past is any guide, mostly the innocent would die. > And I won't shed a tear, as those who left New York and Oslo and > Berlin and Phoenix to go to some tiny patch of land which they claim > YHWH the Terrible granted to the sons of a desert minor > potentate--this all revealed in a hash dream by an old man, > allegedly--well, they were fools in 1948 to kick Arabs off of their > farms and out of their homes. The Jews will suffer mightily. Which > might be all they really want, oy vey! I've known very few Jewish people who believe God gave them Israel, but it clearly has something to do with why that particular patch of land was chosen. Maybe it's the Schelling point of Zionism. The area is symbolically loaded for Jewish people, but the downside is that it's important to other people as well. Most Israelis that I've known see the religiously based Zionists as crazies, especially the ones from the U.S. Saying that Israelis are a certain way because there are people in Israel with certain views is as reasonable as saying that Jim Bell is a good guide to the cypherpunks. The exact nature of Zionism seems hard to pin down, sort of like defining a "cypherpunk". It is clear that many Zionists are not religious. > And I know many people who support, as I do of course, the right of > Aryan Nation(s) to do their thing without lawsuits from offended > Jews and liberals. Last I heard, Aryan Nation(s) was not building > any gas chambers. Shutting down the "organization" due to, for > example, the murder of Allan Berg in Denver makes no more moral or > legal sense than shutting down the Catholics because some Catholics > have bombed abortion clinics. Agreed. Many prominent Catholics have publicly declared that abortion is murder. Applying the same level of integrity as has been applied in criminal trials of technical people, this could be seen as incitement. What is insidious about charging people with organizational involvement is that it bypasses the criminal justice system. The organization itself doesn't stand trial. At the same time the members are not charged with any specfic crime. Thus, the trial can consist of little more than innuendo and the defendant stands a good chance of conviction. It is very close to simple political repression. > The Jews lacked their equivalent of a Reformation, the Lutheran and > Calvinist revolution in thinking which laid the groundwork for the > modern age. And instead of moving on, embracing the future, many of > them retreated to a desert land they thought of as their historic > homeland, never mind that more Polish blood flowed through the veins > of Jews born in Krakow than blood from their ancestors who fled or > otherwise left Palestine 1500 or more years ago. But aren't you the one bringing up the racial purity theory here? I've never known a Jewish person, and I've known many, who spent any time worrying about the genetic purity of their Jewish descent. Presumably they exist somewhere, but the breed is rare. Some Jewish people do seem to have long discussions about "What is a Jew (sic)?", but they do not seem to be genetically driven. I am having a little difficulty understanding what you mean by "embracing the future". This strikes me as a straw man, but perhaps I'm not getting your point. The Jewish community, even the Jewish religious community, does not seem to have had any problem accepting scientific discoveries, which one could describe as "embracing the future". Many Christians, Protestant and otherwise, have had serious problems in this department. For example, the theory of evolution was accepted without a fuss. Even in Jewish religious schools, the theory of evolution is taught. I think the idea behind going to Palestine and founding Israel was to find a way to not be murdered any more. After over 1000 years of abuse ending with 2/3 of the group being killed, it doesn't seem unreasonable that many of the survivors would conclude that it was unsafe to live among Europeans. My guess is that they figured they could just sort of push the Arabs aside and after a bit of fuss, everybody would get used to the idea and they'd have a country where they would have full political rights and even own land without fears of confiscation. Most peoples have done exactly the same thing at some time or other. And, there was already a sizeable Jewish population in Palestine. Do you believe that Jewish activities along these lines are more offensive than similar activities by many other people? If so, do you find them offensive because they are so recent, or is it just the unpleasant fact that American money is contributing to it? > I don't care too much if Arabs and Jews are killing each other, but > I hate like hell to see taxpayer money and armaments shipped to > ZOG-Occupied Palestine to help kill more Arabs and expand ZOG > borders. Agreed. I have better things to do with my money, too. Here's my somewhat uninformed take on the Middle East: Anything the U.S. is doing there is going to be related to oil. Support of Israel gives the U.S. cards to play with the oil producing countries. If the oil producing companies are uncooperative, Israel gets new cool weapons. If they are cooperative, then the U.S. news media start talking about the bad things the Israelis are doing. When the oil producing countries complain, the answer is probably that the Jewish lobby is so powerful that the U.S. has to support the Israelis. I believe that the Jewish lobby is powerful only to the extent that they are allowed to be. If they stood in the way of U.S. policy to any significant extent, they would be curtailed. Israel also plays a useful role for the oil producing governments - they help keep the population unified. A great deal of money flowing into the area does not benefit the populations of the countries there. For example, half of adult male Saudis are illiterate. Keeping those people focused on Israel keeps them from noticing where the money is going. Also, the rulers can accuse detractors of being Israeli spies. I do not think U.S. support for Israel has much to do with post-Holocaust compassion or with the desire to support a democracy in the Middle East or with the Jewish lobby. > And I am offended--but also amused--by the irony of European Jews > recapitulating Hitler's "lebensraum" and "Endlosung" solutions so > soon after WW II ended. Yes, Jacobo Timerman ("Prisoner Without a Name, Cell Without a Number") said the same thing a few years after he fled to Israel from Argentina. He made himself somewhat unpopular by questioning the propriety of the invasion of Lebanon. Some Israelis felt he was ungrateful. Sort of interesting because the original idea was that everybody Jewish could consider themselves Israeli and therefore gratitude would not be in order. (A comparison could be made to the Palestinian situation with respect to their alleged brother Arabs.) Anyway, there is probably a well understood psychological phenomenon at work. Once somebody is abused, they will tend to find somebody else, hopefully subordinate, to mistreat. I've wondered whether this effect isn't related to explain Henry Kissinger's criminality. Kissinger lost two relatives in the Holocaust, but in his political career he associated with and backed people with less than pristine credentials. For example, Nixon had connections to war criminals associated with the Rumanian Iron Guard. The military regimes Kissinger encouraged in South America tended to have people with a certain admiration for the Third Reich. The policies pursued in Southeast Asia bear certain similarities to those of the Nazis. Timerman, incidentally, described himself as Zionist. >> People carp about Tim, but I'd like to see anybody try to do one >> Tim May quality post every day for two weeks. > Thanks, even if you're a Jew-lover. Literally the truth, although not exclusively. ;-) From adnotice at aol.com Sat Sep 1 17:40:08 2001 From: adnotice at aol.com (adnotice at aol.com) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 20:40:08 -0400 Subject: A message to cypherpunks@toad.com Message-ID: <200109020040.f820e8A20368@mail.karabin.com> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Choose Between 16 BIGGEST Adult Hardcore Porn Sites ! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- http://www.vividvip.com/partners/1011390/xx/super.html ONLY 1.49$ 3-DAY TRIAL ACCESS * Nineteen How about HORNY SCHOOLGIRLS Fucking Sucking and Swallowing Your CUM. Well this is whats in store for you at NineTeen. http://home.vividvip.com/cgi-bin/track.cgi?1011390_nt * Secret Celebs We've got all the photos the stars never wanted you to see. We expose their filthiest secrets. UNCENSORED SEX SCENE PICS ! 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Performing the wildest acts EVER CAUGHT ON FILM ! http://home.vividvip.com/cgi-bin/track.cgi?1011390_vv -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Choose Between 16 BIGGEST Adult Hardcore Porn Sites ! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- http://www.vividvip.com/partners/1011390/xx/super.html ONLY 1.49$ 3-DAY TRIAL ACCESS This message was sent to cypherpunks at toad.com. If you do not wish to receive more emails from me, just click on the link below. http://click-to-remove.com at 3520598153/remove.cgi From a3495 at cotse.com Sat Sep 1 17:50:10 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 20:50:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Using supercomputers to break interesting ciphers Message-ID: Faustine wrote: Tim wrote: (snip) >You are now backpedaling furiously away from your "common to newbies" >claim that fast computers might be used to break ciphers. Here's a chunk >of dialog from an August 8 post of yours: >(comments after ">" are from Tim) > >Except when was the last time you heard of a Cypherpunks-interesting >>cipher being broken with _any_ amount of computer crunching? >"Since when did people stop trying? The last time I heard a researcher >>talk about trying to break a Cypherpunks-interesting cipher was last >>Thursday." >This, and similar comments you made about the Sandia and IBM >supercomputers, clearly imply you think one of the uses of these >supercomputers is to "try" to break what I called >Cypherpunks-interesting ciphers. If I had known that to you "computer crunching" is synonymous with "brute forcing large keys" I certainly would have expressed myself differently. >Many who are exposed to crypto to the first time, and who haven't >thought about the issue of factoring large numbers, simply "assume" that >a worthwhile goal is to "try" ("Since when did people stop trying?") to >break such ciphers with faster computers. >(To be sure, there are interesting projects on faster factoring methods, >better quadratic sieves, searches for Mersenne primes, all that good >number theory stuff. Some of it is even being done at Sandia. But this >is a far cry from the common belief that Cypherpunks-interesting ciphers >may fall to attacks with mere supercomputers. Do the math on what a >trillion such Sandia computers could do if they ran for a billion >years...then realize there are keys already in use today which cannot be >attacked by brute-force (or probably any other direct means) with all of >the computer power that the universe could ever support. Mind-boggling, >but I realized this via some calculations just after starting to look >closely at RSA.) >You are now backpedalling, claiming you never meant this. Backpedalling has nothing to do with it. "trying to break Cypehrpunks- interesting ciphers" does not equal "using supercomputers to brute-force large keys." "Interesting cryptograhic applications" does not equal "brute- forcing large keys". Why is this so difficult. >Similar to the way you claimed "if someone else is convinced it's >interesting enough to be willing to foot the power bill (as I had >anticipated would be the case)," well AFTER I posted an article pointing >out that the power bill alone for running older Pentiums and G3s would >pay for faster new CPUs to make the old DIY machines a waste of time. >Fact is, you HADN'T "anticipated" this...you saw my calculations of >watts and MIPS and only _then_ did you retroactively "anticipate" that >power concerns make such arrays of old machines a lose. Check the >archives. The "as I had anticipated would be the case" refers to being allowed to build it in someone else's facility, on their dime. I never said the first thing about having done any of the calculations mentioned in your post. It's their facility, I anticipate they find it interesting enough to let me build it there, they foot the power bill. What's so tricky about that. In fact, I meant for the passage to serve as a sort of explanation of the circumstances in which power costs weren't enough of a central issue for me to have considered them. The end of the sentence you omitted, "where's the downside?" might make this clearer. Obviously, not clear enough. >When some adds a gratuitous "As I had anticipated would be the >case" under these circumstances we know we are in the presence of a faker. You interpreted it as referring to what you thought it ought to in order to bolster whatever view you want to have of me. Nothing new. ~Faustine. From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Sep 1 18:54:50 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 20:54:50 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Moral Crypto In-Reply-To: <75e42bd0997f974a89005d24b4d14a4e@dizum.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Sep 2001, Nomen Nescio wrote: > Again, the entry from non-anonymous into anonymous networks is visible. Which is where distributed systems like Plan 9 come into play. By being completely distributed and (at least in theory) encrypted at the network layer the 'vulnerability' becomes connecting to the network. Of sourse this still leaves the question of keys and their management as a 'entry' vulnerability. -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Sat Sep 1 21:22:31 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 21:22:31 -0700 Subject: Moral Crypto Message-ID: <200109020422.f824MVb42895@mailserver1c.hushmail.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 5655 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Sat Sep 1 21:28:24 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 21:28:24 -0700 Subject: News: "U.S. May Help Chinese Evade Net Censorship" In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20010901195611.02f88990@idiom.com> Message-ID: <200109020432.f824WMf20588@slack.lne.com> On Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 08:02 PM, Bill Stewart wrote: > But yes, if you're giving away free betas, the NSA can have them too. > And if you're doing the "$49 for 5 nyms" deal, they can buy them too, > whether they admit that they're doing it or whether you just get > orders from the Maryland Procurement Office or a credit card > belonging to R.Canine, Columbia MD. Excepting that all true Cypherpunks would know that Gen. Canine died 30 years ago. Of course, on the Internet nobody knows you're a dead DIRNSA. --Tim May From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sat Sep 1 21:46:47 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 21:46:47 -0700 Subject: stump go boom, and keeping kanooks at bay In-Reply-To: <3B902A58.9E61C598@black.org> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010901214230.02f974f0@idiom.com> At 05:22 PM 08/31/2001 -0700, Subcommander Bob wrote: >At 11:17 AM 8/31/01 -0400, Duncan Frissell wrote: > >Note that the unlicensed private use of explosives may be legal in >America > >depending on time and place. Need any stumps cleared? > >Last week, my local (SoCal) Home Depot had Grant's stump remover, which >appeared to be homogenous small spheres and KNO3 was mentioned >on the ingredients list :-) Stump remover doesn't go boom, it goes fizzle fizzle smoke smoke smoke, for a long time until your stump has burned away down into the roots. You might be able to extract some KNO3 from the other gunk, but there're probably better ways to get your pyrotechnical supplies. From mailingmanager2001 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 1 21:56:41 2001 From: mailingmanager2001 at yahoo.com (Global Marketing Group) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 21:56:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Global Marketing Tool - Global Toll Free Service Message-ID: <20010902045641.A5F1312F106@smtp.infinex.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 11124 bytes Desc: not available URL: From a3495 at cotse.com Sat Sep 1 19:15:29 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 22:15:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: News: 'U.S. May Help Chinese Evade Net Censorship' In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010901180856.03e935e0@pop3.norton.antivirus> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20010901180856.03e935e0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: > At 03:19 PM 9/1/2001 -0400, Faustine wrote: >> > >> > When you talk about "collaborating" and ZKS selling beta software to >> > the NSA, are you saying you've got information that ZKS gave the >> > NSA access to more information than the general public got, and/or >> > that the NSA got their access or information meaningfully earlier >> > than the general public? >> >>Actually, it would be far more more informative to get them to explain >>exactly what happened instead of relying on third-party empty hearsay >>and hot air from me, since honestly that's all I've got. But I'm sure >>there are a lot of reasons--some of them contractural--you'll never >>hear the whole story. Especially given that you'll never get anything >>more than loose talk from the other side. > > Well, if all you've got is hearsay and hot air, then I think it's > unfair to tag them with words like "collaborator" or suggest that > they're not trustworthy - those are pretty serious allegations to > make. I'm aware of examples of cryptosystems and companies which were > compromised by intelligence agencies - and also aware of baseless FUD > and conspiracy theories spun against uncompromised software unfairly. Fair enough, point well taken. And frankly, anything said on this by someone who hasn't putting their own real personal credibility on the line is going to come across like FUD anyway. Even asking for explanations is a bit fuddy. When I find a more measured and responsible way to vent about what's pissing me off, I certainly will. ~Faustine. From nobody at dizum.com Sat Sep 1 13:30:09 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 22:30:09 +0200 (CEST) Subject: The Privacy/Untraceability Sweet Spot Message-ID: On 31 Aug 2001, at 12:13, georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote: > On 31 Aug 2001, at 19:50, Nomen Nescio wrote: > > This means that the operators > > choose to whom they will market and sell their services. > > Here I disagree completely. I think in a properly designed > anonymity system the users will be, well, anonymous, and > it should be impossible to tell any more about them than that they > pay their bills on time. Certainly most potential users would balk at > requirements that they prove who they were and justify their desire > to use such a system, since that would tend to defeat the purpose. Yes and no. The users aren't all that anonymous, or they wouldn't need anonymous technologies, would they? The remailer network sees where this message originates. If you use Zero Knowledge software, their network knows exactly who is using it at any time. If a digital cash bank came into existence, payments transferred into the digital system from outside would largely be from identified sources. Nevertheless it's true that the operators would probably not find it cost effective to try to identify every single customer. (Although ZKS will cancel your nym if you spam with it.) The real issue is the clause above about "market and sell". This was the original point raised by Tim May: what markets do we select? His whiteboard exercise teaches that you need to identify, select and target particular markets which make sense. And if you care about the world you are creating, that's where the moral issue comes in. > I don't think it serves > any purpose to discuss who constitute "valiant freedom fighters > resisting a tyrannical government" and who are "bloody terrorist > fanatics attempting to overthrow a benign legitimate government > and replace it wth a worse one" in this forum. We may have strong > opinions on this matter as individuals, but it is completely > unreasonable to expect us to come to any kind of consensus as a > group. Nonsense. Most participants in this forum DO share common philosophical goals: the preservation and enhancement of individual freedom via technological means. This is our common heritage. People make moral judgements every single day on this list based on exactly this framework. And it is this moral view which tells us that bin Laden and his terrorist groups are not the market which we should target in order to advance these goals. > Nor is it necessarily beneficial to do so. Would a system > useful to the "virtuous" seperatist Kurds in Iraq be different in any > technical way from a system used by the "evil" seperatist Kurds > in Turkey? No, probably not. However the world seems strangely short of virtuous freedom fighters right now. In fact "freedom fighters" are probably not an appropriate target market for cypherpunks. They may be well funded but most of them are wedded to violence. If they get into power they're not going to make things any better. James Donald made this point: few countries are undergoing true popular revolutions. It would be better to target technologies that would benefit groups where there is a large, oppressed minority, people who just want to be left alone. Unfortunately, almost by definition, oppressed minorities tend to be poor. So it is a hard problem to do this profitably. > > It is important to identify markets which will advance the cause rather > > than set it back. Tim May made a good start on this in his earlier > > posting. Those who reject the idea of judging groups and markets by > > their morality are the ones who are missing the point. > > Wrong. When discussing design of a system, it makes sense to > limit discussion to parameters relevant to system design. How > much individuals might be willing to pay to protect their privacy, > how great of injuries they might suffer if their privacy is > compromised, is relevant to system design. Why they > want privacy, whether you or I as individuals would think of them > as "good guys" or "bad guys", really isn't. It's true that this does not directly impact the design. But we can't ignore the question, is this a market we want to pursue. For example, there are any number of papers on key escrow systems, or "fair" electronic cash (where only the government can trace it). Legitimate businesses might well be willing to use such systems. So there is profit to be made, all the more profit since the government is less likely to hassle you. Would you say that discussions of such technologies would and should be encouraged on the cypherpunks list? That it doesn't matter whether this helps us in or long-term goal or not? Surely not. Morality plays a part in everything we do. We have goals in common. We should structure our efforts so that they are in accordance with our highest goals. Having principles is nothing to be ashamed of. We all have them, and we should be proud of that. From jamesd at echeque.com Sat Sep 1 22:46:28 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 22:46:28 -0700 Subject: The Privacy/Untraceability Sweet Spot In-Reply-To: References: <3B909D32.158.2FBB72@localhost> Message-ID: <3B916544.30458.3895B6@localhost> James A. Donald: -- James A. Donald: > > Hitler won an election. Elections are not revolutions. Jim Choate > The election alone didn't make him Fuhrer The fact that a majority voted for totalitarianism and plurality voted for Hitler did make him fuhrer. And regardless of what made him Fuhrer, it was not a revolution. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG RpelMIrX2K4QW9RrV+FQSoasyeDmQ2AZiYJRqChp 4ZIDF43ciehEL5FHHjzW8DkYtOVIkC89UFJ3r8Y4c From jamesd at echeque.com Sat Sep 1 22:53:38 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 22:53:38 -0700 Subject: Jim Bell sentenced to 10 years in prison In-Reply-To: References: <3B901607.23698.5A2392D@localhost> Message-ID: <3B9166F2.17508.3F230B@localhost> -- On 1 Sep 2001, at 16:12, Faustine wrote: > All I'm saying is that if the feds are doing their job well, > they won't stick out at all. Fortunately it does not seem very common for government employees to do their jobs well. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG vuP3Scaq1rspcZvWRBMeyrfXAZy+ZdakxEmYzJIX 4AcwoF+RVx3EHZrq58+Pvvj6aJxojQXwE14EGbM4G From jamesd at echeque.com Sat Sep 1 22:53:38 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 22:53:38 -0700 Subject: cryptosocialismo In-Reply-To: <002b01c13336$bbe6cc00$327da6cb@mattd> Message-ID: <3B9166F2.23300.3F2301@localhost> -- On 2 Sep 2001, at 8:37, mattd wrote: > cryptoanarchy aka cryptocapitalism seems to be in crisis.Should > the hardcore libertarian individualist tap into a new source of > fire?During the spanish civil war/revolution,in anarchist > controlled areas,individuals were free to cultivate individual > lots and some did.After a while most drifted to the collectives That story commie fiction, and also completely irrelevant. If anyone wants a rerun of the debate about the failure of anarcho socialism, look up http://www.jim.com/cat/ --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG rsxWWWvR7ZUtdGlLT31y0OUYnplTsPfmPT+1tYyk 490OyRsnLUu2Nr7XRFx9rZl59ey2bFWTsoadZDd3A From jamesd at echeque.com Sat Sep 1 22:53:38 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 22:53:38 -0700 Subject: Jim Bell sentenced to 10 years in prison In-Reply-To: References: <3B901607.23698.5A2392D@localhost> Message-ID: <3B9166F2.32736.3F230B@localhost> -- On 1 Sep 2001, at 16:12, Faustine wrote: > All I'm saying is that if the feds are doing their job well, > they won't stick out at all. Smells like a witch hunt. Fortunately government employees seldom do their jobs well. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG VMG1ETupIefAXUXhriXMx/jYuZ/GAkBiR2bp0dam 4j11sKNzaPkhkV9Dcny7kqNAWJLgxx2fb75bC3eBw From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Sep 1 21:07:25 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 23:07:25 -0500 (CDT) Subject: The Privacy/Untraceability Sweet Spot In-Reply-To: <3B9120FF.6554.118E74B2@localhost> Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Sep 2001 georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote: > OK. Freedom=good. Tyranny=bad. Now that we've agreed on > moral principles, time to move on. Unfortunately it is neither that simple in principle or practice. Absolute freedom is clearly bad, especially the first psycho you meet. And tyranny isn't necessarily bad, consider the tyranny of social intercourse. Um, wait a second. Aren't those related?... -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From tcmay at got.net Sat Sep 1 23:19:43 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 23:19:43 -0700 Subject: How strong Can I? In-Reply-To: <007401c1338c$132ae1e0$28279eac@computer> Message-ID: <200109020624.f826ODf21066@slack.lne.com> On Sunday, September 2, 2001, at 01:44 AM, Dave wrote: > Im writing a toy for personal use that i may give away sooner or later, > are > there limits on how strong i can make the crypto max key length for > personal, > use for free distrubtion inside the us? Not sure on the exact legalities > involved if i gave it way... Some help would be nice. > There are no restrictions whatsoever...except... -- you can't give certain kinds of crypto to Bad People (Hizbollah, Bader-Meinhof, Kurds in Turkey (OK to give to Kurds in Iraq), and so on...consult the List of Bad People). -- your program may be subject to a Secrecy Order, similar to the one that silenced the inventor of the PhasorPhone. If this happens you will not be able to disclose your invention to anyone and you may be unable to even reveal that you are under such a Secrecy Order. Other than these possibilities, go for it, dude. --Tim May From dm128 at microconnect.net Sun Sep 2 01:44:10 2001 From: dm128 at microconnect.net (Dave) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 01:44:10 -0700 Subject: How strong Can I? Message-ID: <007401c1338c$132ae1e0$28279eac@computer> Im writing a toy for personal use that i may give away sooner or later, are there limits on how strong i can make the crypto max key length for personal, use for free distrubtion inside the us? Not sure on the exact legalities involved if i gave it way... Some help would be nice. Dave From cell_phone_fun442214 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 2 00:20:50 2001 From: cell_phone_fun442214 at yahoo.com (cell_phone_fun442214 at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 02:20:50 -0500 Subject: add logos and tones to your cell phone 44221411876 Message-ID: <200207050827.g658RGa04090@mail.vrfield.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 8321 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nobody at dizum.com Sat Sep 1 18:40:42 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 03:40:42 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Moral Crypto Message-ID: <75e42bd0997f974a89005d24b4d14a4e@dizum.com> Tim May wrote: > On Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 01:30 PM, Nomen Nescio wrote: > > Yes and no. The users aren't all that anonymous, or they wouldn't need > > anonymous technologies, would they? The remailer network sees where > > this message originates. If you use Zero Knowledge software, their > > network knows exactly who is using it at any time. If a digital cash > > bank came into existence, payments transferred into the digital system > > from outside would largely be from identified sources. > > What can I say? You clearly don't understand: > > -- how remailer _networks_ work (Hint: nested encryption...all the first > remailer sees when he opens a message is an encrypted message he can't > read and instructions on which remailer to send it to next, and so on. > Only if most/all remailers collaborate can the route be followed by > them.) The fact that a given person is using the remailer network is not a secret. At least one remailer finds out every time he sends a message. The point is, the entry from the non-anonymous to the anonymous world is a vulnerability. > -- how Freedom works (Hint: They say that even they cannot know who is > using it, except in terms of network usage. Which with cover traffic, > forwarding of other traffic, dummy messages, etc., means the fact that > Alice was using the network during a period of time does not mean they > know which exit messages are hers.) You are not stating their claims accurately. ZKS does indeed have information about who is using it at any given time, if they operate any of the servers. Or at least the server operators can tell. Each user sets up a route through a chain of servers, and any given server knows exactly who is using it as the initial connection into the network. Again, the entry from non-anonymous into anonymous networks is visible. > -- blinding. (Hint: That Alice deposits money into a digital bank, and > is identified by the bank, does not mean the bank knows who received > digital money from Alice, because Alice unblinds the note before > spending it--or redeeming it.) No, but the fact that Alice transfered a certain amount of funds into the anonymous bank is visible to at least some observers. Once again, the point is that as you enter the anonymous world your entry is visible. Compare this with the original claim: "in a properly designed anonymity system the users will be, well, anonymous, and it should be impossible to tell any more about them than that they pay their bills on time." These examples illustrate the falsehood of this claim. Much more is learned about the customers as they enter the anonymous system. > > Nonsense. Most participants in this forum DO share common philosophical > > goals: the preservation and enhancement of individual freedom via > > technological means. This is our common heritage. People make moral > > judgements every single day on this list based on exactly this framework. > > And it is this moral view which tells us that bin Laden and his terrorist > > groups are not the market which we should target in order to advance > > these goals. > > How about McVeigh? How about The Real IRA? How about John Brown? How > about Patrick Henry/ How about Cuban exiles? (By the way, everyone > should know about the time an anti-Castro group blew up a Cuban > airliner. Terrorists, freedom fighters, or just a bunch who wants to be > in control?) Not everyone will agree with every specific case. But given our common philosophical heritage, list members can come to agreement with regard to most examples. The test is simple, whether these individuals advance the causes we support. As long as you're listing examples, what do you think about Osama bin Laden? Would you support efforts to market crypto technology to Islamic religious extremists? The great thing about bin Laden as an example is that we can see exactly what the consequences will be when he succeeds. With McVeigh, nobody knows for sure. But chances are it would be much the same if the militias achieved their goals: installation of a religious state. Supporting these people means helping bring about another Afghanistan, maybe right here at home next time. > > Surely not. Morality plays a part in everything we do. We have goals > > in common. We should structure our efforts so that they are in accordance > > with our highest goals. Having principles is nothing to be ashamed of. > > We all have them, and we should be proud of that. An additional point: if you were truly unconcerned with moral issues, you would have no objection to seeing discussion here about how we can use computer technology to promote government power and control. > From your words, I doubt you support the same goals I support. We'll see. If you support increasing government power, then you are correct. 25BA1A9F5B9010DD8C752EDE887E9AF3 [Cantsin Protocol No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rom keokong at hotmail.com Sat Sep 1 21:14:28 2001 From: keokong at hotmail.com (keo kong) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 04:14:28 +0000 Subject: need Message-ID: to cypherpunks I am keo and I would like to order no brand CD-R over 50000 per mounth, could you let me know about the price, I need you send me to nongkai onething if the CD-R can not use ,can I return? onething could you let me know where is your address and your phone number for me easy to connect. Please reply me as quick as possible I look forward to hearing from you. best regard keo _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Sep 2 06:37:50 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 08:37:50 -0500 (CDT) Subject: The Privacy/Untraceability Sweet Spot In-Reply-To: <3B916544.30458.3895B6@localhost> Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Sep 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote: > And regardless of what made him Fuhrer, it was not a revolution. It wasn't? They passed a law moving all the presidents power to Hitler against the constitution. Then they got the military to swear an oath to Hitler, not Germany. In other words in the space of two years they went from a democracy to a tyranny. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck... -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From mattd at useoz.com Sat Sep 1 15:37:50 2001 From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 08:37:50 +1000 Subject: cryptosocialismo Message-ID: <002b01c13336$bbe6cc00$327da6cb@mattd> cryptoanarchy aka cryptocapitalism seems to be in crisis.Should the hardcore libertarian individualist tap into a new source of fire?During the spanish civil war/revolution,in anarchist controlled areas,individuals were free to cultivate individual lots and some did.After a while most drifted to the collectives.The prospects for any revolution,let alone a libertarian socialist one seem bleak...yet,with the gulags gulping more victims everyday and a looming runaway greenhouse effect the day of the lone wolf cryptowarrior may be coming to an end.The future might be real grass roots workers control or 'tears of blood'You dont make revolutions by halves. mattd. From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Sep 2 06:43:31 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 08:43:31 -0500 (CDT) Subject: cryptosocialismo In-Reply-To: <3B9166F2.23300.3F2301@localhost> Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Sep 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote: > -- > On 2 Sep 2001, at 8:37, mattd wrote: > > cryptoanarchy aka cryptocapitalism seems to be in crisis.Should > That story commie fiction, and also completely irrelevant. If > anyone wants a rerun of the debate about the failure of anarcho > socialism, look up http://www.jim.com/cat/ crypto-anarcy <> anarcho-socialism <> crypto-capitalism -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From georgemw at speakeasy.net Sun Sep 2 09:23:10 2001 From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 09:23:10 -0700 Subject: Stealth Computing Abuses TCP Checksums In-Reply-To: <200109010538.BAA26680@world.std.com> References: Your message of "Wed, 29 Aug 2001 23:25:01 EDT." <5.0.2.1.1.20010829231620.02fa57a0@idiom.com> Message-ID: <3B91FA7E.1924.14E00A23@localhost> On 1 Sep 2001, at 1:38, Dan Geer wrote: > . "Below, we present an implementation of a parasitic computer > . using the checksum function. In order for this to occur, > . one needs to design a special message that coerces a target server > . into performing the desired computation." > > This is the same principle that underlies denial of service > attacks -- the irreducible residual vulnerability of a system > to denial of service is proportional to the amount of work (or > time) that system must do (or consume) before it can conclude > its initial authorization decision. Ironically, the more > precise and complex that authorization decision process, the > greater the amount of work that the active (initiating) side of > the connection can call on the passive side to perform. This > critically bears on protocol and application security design. > > --dan > > Since I haven't noticed anyone else point this out (apologies for my redundancy if I just somehow missed it), it's worth mentioning that the original result was more of a "gee whiz, it's interesting we can do this in principle" type of thing than an actual threat of something anybody would ever actually do. Yes, you can trick a remote host into performing calculations for you with a specially prepared message, but it requires a hell of a lot more effort to prepare the message than it would to perform the calculation yourself. George From Cathy0313 at hotmail.com Sun Sep 2 09:30:15 2001 From: Cathy0313 at hotmail.com (Cathy0313 at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 09:30:15 Subject: CONGRATULATIONS!! YOU WON!! .. Message-ID: <200109021419.HAA26138@ecotone.toad.com> You have been specially selected to qualify for the following: Premium Vacation Package and Pentium PC Giveaway To review the details of the please click on the link with the confirmation number below: http://wintrip.my163.com or http://wintrip.yes8.com Confirmation Number#Lh340 Please confirm your entry within 24 hours of receipt of this confirmation. Wishing you a fun filled vacation! If you should have any additional questions or cann't connect to the site do not hesitate to contact me direct: mailto:vacation at btamail.net.cn?subject=Help! From tcmay at got.net Sun Sep 2 09:37:03 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 09:37:03 -0700 Subject: Stealth Computing Abuses TCP Checksums In-Reply-To: <3B91FA7E.1924.14E00A23@localhost> Message-ID: <200109021641.f82Gf0f22781@slack.lne.com> On Sunday, September 2, 2001, at 09:23 AM, georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote: > On 1 Sep 2001, at 1:38, Dan Geer wrote: > >> . "Below, we present an implementation of a parasitic computer >> . using the checksum function. In order for this to occur, >> . one needs to design a special message that coerces a target >> server >> . into performing the desired computation." >> >> This is the same principle that underlies denial of service >> attacks -- the irreducible residual vulnerability of a system >> to denial of service is proportional to the amount of work (or >> time) that system must do (or consume) before it can conclude >> its initial authorization decision. Ironically, the more >> precise and complex that authorization decision process, the >> greater the amount of work that the active (initiating) side of >> the connection can call on the passive side to perform. This >> critically bears on protocol and application security design. >> >> --dan >> >> > Since I haven't noticed anyone else point this out (apologies for > my redundancy if I just somehow missed it), it's worth mentioning > that the original result was more of a "gee whiz, it's interesting we > can do this in principle" type of thing than an actual threat of > something anybody would ever actually do. Yes, you can trick a > remote host into performing calculations for you with a specially > prepared message, but it requires a hell of a lot more effort to > prepare the message than it would to perform the calculation > yourself. Why would you think this is always so? It would not take much effort to arrange a computation that consumed a lot of CPU cycles and returned a result, once one has gotten access to a remote machine. The case of the corportate employee using machines he could access to compute a screensaver/P2P job for a possible winning payoff comes to mind. Granted, he may have had permissions to access these machines, but the general point is that someone who got past these permissions could have done the same compute-intensive thing. I see no reason to believe that "it requires a hell of a lot more effort to prepare the message than it would to perform the calculation yourself." Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. --Tim May From jya at pipeline.com Sun Sep 2 09:56:06 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 09:56:06 -0700 Subject: cryptosocialismo In-Reply-To: References: <3B9166F2.23300.3F2301@localhost> Message-ID: <200109021403.KAA01313@smtp6.mindspring.com> Choate wrote: >crypto-anarcy <> anarcho-socialism <> crypto-capitalism That's part but not all. Anarchy is not an absolute, only an opposition to the prevailing archy whether capitalist, socialist, capitalistic-socialism, socialistic-capitalism, and their mealy-mouthed democratic-communistic- oligarchic-theocratic precursors, successors and variations. Anarchy is wonderfully chameleonic, which is why it is the favorite cloaking for undercover agents of the all the rest. And best, there are no leaders, only those who disavow being leaders and thereby reveal their true colors. True leaders, a contradictory oxymoron, never preen, are never courageous, never perform exceptional actions, would never call attention to themselves so ineptly, and do not exhibit exhibitionistic characteristics such as lecturing and preaching to obsequious non-followers how to follow obediently without orders being issued. At least that is what the anarchist bible commanded before it became discredited by overspin. Then came the prefixes to fix that with branding. Now those prefixtual brands get hammered, rightly so, and leftly so, so what, so easy, so ignorant. Old Time Anarchy was invented by authoritarians to entrap firebrand fools. Not much has changed. Old fools hustling the youngsters. This is not a confession merely, but a bible quote, or I forget which list this is. From jamesd at echeque.com Sun Sep 2 10:03:29 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 10:03:29 -0700 Subject: The Privacy/Untraceability Sweet Spot In-Reply-To: References: <3B916544.30458.3895B6@localhost> Message-ID: <3B9203F1.6147.865B51@localhost> -- James A. Donald: > > And regardless of what made him Fuhrer, it was not a > > revolution. Jim Choate: > It wasn't? They passed a law moving all the presidents power to > Hitler against the constitution. "They passed a law" is not a revolution, even if the law was unconstitutional, and it was far more plausibly constitutional than many recent acts of congress and recent supreme court decisions. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG sCjb3FyPkIA3ccCv1Edyms5TE8T8r5azQl1n/vTC 4ZUWu+8KwHCZrQsD98OEVKe12WiTrkmV15ORw/BkG From georgemw at speakeasy.net Sun Sep 2 10:46:57 2001 From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 10:46:57 -0700 Subject: Stealth Computing Abuses TCP Checksums In-Reply-To: <200109021641.f82Gf0f22781@slack.lne.com> References: <3B91FA7E.1924.14E00A23@localhost> Message-ID: <3B920E21.14079.152CBF20@localhost> On 2 Sep 2001, at 9:37, Tim May wrote: > > Since I haven't noticed anyone else point this out (apologies for > > my redundancy if I just somehow missed it), it's worth mentioning > > that the original result was more of a "gee whiz, it's interesting we > > can do this in principle" type of thing than an actual threat of > > something anybody would ever actually do. Yes, you can trick a > > remote host into performing calculations for you with a specially > > prepared message, but it requires a hell of a lot more effort to > > prepare the message than it would to perform the calculation > > yourself. > > > Why would you think this is always so? > Gut hunch. > It would not take much effort to arrange a computation that consumed a > lot of CPU cycles and returned a result, once one has gotten access to a > remote machine. The case of the corportate employee using machines he > could access to compute a screensaver/P2P job for a possible winning > payoff comes to mind. Granted, he may have had permissions to access > these machines, but the general point is that someone who got past these > permissions could have done the same compute-intensive thing. > I was referring to the specific type of exploit where the "parasite" is abusing the TCP checksum. I suspect the same result is likely to hold with attempts to exploit other protocols. Obviously, if an attacker "owns" your machine, that's a completely different kettle of fish. > I see no reason to believe that "it requires a hell of a lot more effort > to > prepare the message than it would to perform the calculation > yourself." > > Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. > > Right, and I suspect I have a fair idea which is which. If you can get a remote host to execute arbitrary code, with loops and branches, or to evaluate complicated functions, then it may be worth your while to do it. If all you can do is get it to add up a list of numbers, then it's almost certainly going to be easier to just do the addition yourself. If there's also a bunch of extra effort required to turn an abstract problem into a series of addition problems, the advantage of solving the problem yourself (without this intermediate step) is even greater. George > --Tim May From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Sep 2 08:49:45 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 10:49:45 -0500 Subject: SIG: CNN.com - Ultrafast wireless technology set to lift off - August 30, 2001 Message-ID: <3B925519.5989BF44@ssz.com> http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/ptech/08/30/ultrafast.wireless.idg/index.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From schear at lvcm.com Sun Sep 2 11:14:14 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 11:14:14 -0700 Subject: SIG: CNN.com - Ultrafast wireless technology set to lift off - August 30, 2001 In-Reply-To: <3B925519.5989BF44@ssz.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010902111145.03114ac8@pop3.lvcm.com> At 10:49 AM 9/2/2001 -0500, Jim Choate wrote: >http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/ptech/08/30/ultrafast.wireless.idg/index.html I've got friends at some of these companies and I feel for them. Given my experience heading the Part15 Coalition in the mid-90s and the powerful incumbent forces allied against them, I find it highly unlikely the UWB will see more than military and LE use any time soon. steve From georgemw at speakeasy.net Sun Sep 2 12:26:51 2001 From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 12:26:51 -0700 Subject: Moral Crypto In-Reply-To: <75e42bd0997f974a89005d24b4d14a4e@dizum.com> Message-ID: <3B92258B.22440.158837BA@localhost> On 2 Sep 2001, at 3:40, Nomen Nescio wrote: > The fact that a given person is using the remailer network is not a > secret. At least one remailer finds out every time he sends a message. > The point is, the entry from the non-anonymous to the anonymous world > is a vulnerability. > Sort of. The first remailer in the chain will see something like an IP address. This might or might not be enough to identify the indvidual using it in principle (gee, it's somebody posting from a public library or internet cafe) and almost certainly isn't in practice (how many remaler operators bother keeping something like a reverse DNS table on their servers). If the remailer operators decided they wanted to deny "baddies" use of their services, they would not only have to unanimously agree as to who the "baddies" are, they would also have to deny their services in all cases where the client cannot be positovely identified. Neither of which strikes me as being plausible. > > -- blinding. (Hint: That Alice deposits money into a digital bank, and > > is identified by the bank, does not mean the bank knows who received > > digital money from Alice, because Alice unblinds the note before > > spending it--or redeeming it.) > > No, but the fact that Alice transfered a certain amount of funds into > the anonymous bank is visible to at least some observers. Once again, > the point is that as you enter the anonymous world your entry is visible. > In the old style numbered swiss bank account, you give them a suitcase full of cash and you get an account number. They know who you are if the recognize you when you go in to set up the account, if not not. > Compare this with the original claim: "in a properly designed anonymity > system the users will be, well, anonymous, and it should be impossible > to tell any more about them than that they pay their bills on time." > These examples illustrate the falsehood of this claim. Much more > is learned about the customers as they enter the anonymous system. > I stand by my earlier statement. The fact that you may be identifiable at the point of entry to an anonymity system is a weakness, not a desired feature, and if it can be avoided, it should be. George From tcmay at got.net Sun Sep 2 12:34:31 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 12:34:31 -0700 Subject: Moral Crypto In-Reply-To: <3B92258B.22440.158837BA@localhost> Message-ID: <200109021938.f82JcQf23312@slack.lne.com> On Sunday, September 2, 2001, at 12:26 PM, georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote: > If the remailer operators decided they wanted to deny "baddies" > use of their services, they would not only have to unanimously > agree as to who the "baddies" are, they would also have to deny > their services in all cases where the client cannot be positovely > identified. Neither of which strikes me as being plausible. If there are many remailers, essentially zero chance. (Or if one is a remailer oneself.) The other remailers can theoretically band together as some kind of guild and reject packets from "rogue" remailers, but there are numerous practical problems. Identifying a "rogue" remailer which "allows" packets from "baddies" (e.g, from Mormons, or free speech advocates) will not be easy: the guild of do-gooders will only known a rogue packet has entered their system if they _trace_ it! Nearly all "baddie" packets exiting the system ("Down with Barney the Dinosaur!" and similar evil things) will only be detected--drum roll--when they _exit_ the system. Fat chance that N remailers around the world will proactively trace packets just so they can burn the Barney critic baddie. > I stand by my earlier statement. The fact that you may be > identifiable at the point of entry to an anonymity system is > a weakness, not a desired feature, and if it can be avoided, it > should be. > Then design such a system. "Anyone a remailer, anyone a mint" is one strong approach. --Tim May From honig at sprynet.com Sun Sep 2 15:03:30 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 15:03:30 -0700 Subject: Moral Crypto In-Reply-To: <200109021938.f82JcQf23312@slack.lne.com> References: <3B92258B.22440.158837BA@localhost> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010902150330.00866250@pop.sprynet.com> At 12:34 PM 9/2/01 -0700, Tim May wrote: >Someone else: >> The fact that you may be >> identifiable at the point of entry to an anonymity system is >> a weakness, not a desired feature, and if it can be avoided, it >> should be. >> > >Then design such a system. You did a few lines earlier: >(Or if one is a remailer oneself.) > If the next generation of came with a remailer that was on by default, then even running a remailer would be too common to draw attention (prosecute). And given that Joe Sixpack's node regularly relays MSMixmaster messages, the *occasional* message injected by Joe will be nearly invisible. Heavy use might be detectable depending on how obvious the relayed messages are. >"Anyone a remailer, anyone a mint" is one strong approach. Very strong. In the case of a remailer, necessary. I suppose the spam potential, of everyone an SMTP forwarder, is problem? Surmountable. Deployment, sending-ease-of-use are the real problems. From galt at inconnu.isu.edu Sun Sep 2 15:44:33 2001 From: galt at inconnu.isu.edu (John Galt) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 16:44:33 -0600 (MDT) Subject: my name and address In-Reply-To: <20010902025914.30306.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: See what happens when you send chain letters? I'm really trying to work up some sympathy here, but I'm just failing. You participated in an illegal chain letter and now you want to be protected from the consequences of your actions. Tough. HTH, HAND, FOAD, etc. On Sat, 1 Sep 2001, (na) mshoe wrote: >Every now and again I do a search of my name just to >see what comes up and I recently saw a post of my name >an address at this url >http://www.shmoo.com/mail/cypherpunks/may01/msg00077.shtml. >I was wondering if you could please erase this for two >reasons, one I do not live at that address anymore and >two I stopped sending the chain letter 3 months ago, >so there is no use for my personal information to be >on the net anymore. Thank-You > Mitch > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger >http://im.yahoo.com > -- EMACS == Eight Megabytes And Constantly Swapping Who is John Galt? galt at inconnu.isu.edu, that's who! From stevet at sendon.net Sun Sep 2 09:47:04 2001 From: stevet at sendon.net (Steve Thompson) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 16:47:04 +0000 Subject: cryptosocialismo References: <3B9166F2.23300.3F2301@localhost> <200109021403.KAA01313@smtp6.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <200108301523.LAA18720@divert.sendon.net> Quoting John Young (jya at pipeline.com): > Choate wrote: > > >crypto-anarcy <> anarcho-socialism <> crypto-capitalism [snip] > True leaders, a contradictory oxymoron, never preen, > are never courageous, never perform exceptional > actions, would never call attention to themselves so > ineptly, and do not exhibit exhibitionistic characteristics > such as lecturing and preaching to obsequious > non-followers how to follow obediently without orders > being issued. That is what oral history and religious documents are for. What a beautiful arrangement when followers can be counted on to pull with the team without non-leaders having the tedious task of preaching orders directly to the chosen. [snip] > Old Time Anarchy was invented by authoritarians > to entrap firebrand fools. Not much has changed. > Old fools hustling the youngsters. But just as shit flows downhill, so must the youngsters grow old and hustle new youngsters. Ah, all must rejoice at this glorious cycle of life. > This is not a confession merely, but a bible quote, > or I forget which list this is. Good point. I should check to see what list I have been subscribed to just as a sensible precaution against the omnipresent lurking threat of the man-in-the- middle attack. Regards, Steve -- ``If religion were nothing but an illusion and a sham, there could be no philosophy of it. The study of it would belong to abnormal psychology.... Religion cannot afford to claim exemption from philosophical enquiry. If it attempts to do so on the grounds of sanctity, it can only draw upon itself suspicion that it is afraid to face the music.'' -- H. J. Paton, "The Modern Predicament" From anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org Sun Sep 2 15:38:01 2001 From: anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org (Anonymous) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 17:38:01 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Message Hit Points Message-ID: <3a09a2c822362157cbd69e6fd2772386@mixmaster.nullify.org> -5: Posted through node which modifies subject line -4: Pointless flame -3: "Me Too" comment +1: Posted through mixmaster remailer +2: Posted something funny +3: Posted something new and worth knowing or thinking about +4: Posted useful code +5: Signed with Cantsin Protocol No. 2 (Hi, Monty!) From bob at black.org Sun Sep 2 19:13:14 2001 From: bob at black.org (Subcommander Bob) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 19:13:14 -0700 Subject: Single-Number Plan Raises Privacy Fears Message-ID: <3B92E739.DFA3A292@black.org> September 2, 2001 Single-Number Plan Raises Privacy Fears Technology: System would link telephones, faxes and Web addresses while creating giant databases. By JUBE SHIVER Jr., Times Staff Writer WASHINGTON -- A controversial technology under development by the communications industry that links Internet addresses with phone numbers has quietly picked up key government support as concern mounts among critics that the technology will broadly undermine privacy. The technology, known as e-number, or ENUM, would link phone numbers to codes that computer servers use to route traffic on the Web. Proponents say the technology would improve communication for consumers and marketers alike. The industry envisions a sophisticated electronic address book that would be able to direct messages to virtually any fax machine, computer or telephone, using a new 11-digit e-number. As a result, a fax could be sent to someone who lacked a fax machine but had an e-mail address. Likewise, cell phone users would only have to key in 11-digits to send e-mail, not a cumbersome alphanumeric address. But privacy advocates fear the system could undermine online privacy and erode the security of the public phone system as well. They worry that the system would destroy a pillar of Internet privacy: the assumption by users that they enjoy anonymity in cyberspace. The government's endorsement of the technology, disclosed in interviews and outlined in an Aug. 21 letter distributed to an industry group, is seen as critical in pushing it forward. "The United States does see merit in pursing discussions regarding implementation of a coordinated, global [system] . . . for ENUM," Julian E. Minard, a State Department advisor to the International Telecommunication Advisory Committee, wrote to representatives of AT&T and other companies. But Minard cautioned in the letter that aspects of the technology advocated by industry "go beyond what is prudent or necessary." ENUM is likely to be voluntary, requiring users to sign up for the service. But privacy experts say it will not be worth the time and investment the industry is making in the technology unless it is widely used. So they expect ENUM will be aggressively promoted. "We believe that ENUM raises serious questions about privacy and security that need to be addressed before it's widely deployed," said Alan Davidson, associate director of the Center for Democracy and Technology, a privacy watchdog group based in Washington. "They are promoting this as a system that is going to make it really easy for people to find you in all kinds of ways. Well, we want to make sure that consumers can opt out if they don't want to be found." Today, vigilant Web surfers can maintain a high degree of anonymity because e-mail and other Web addresses contain little personal information. What's more, Web addresses under aliases can easily be created to cloak the identity of the sender. As a result, marketers have been forced to spend millions of dollars to get Web surfers to voluntarily give up personal information. By contrast, a phone number has a wealth of personal information associated with it, including a street address, billing records and dialing data. Marrying such information to Web addresses would represent a leap in private data warehousing in cyberspace and dramatically increase the risk of privacy invasions, experts say. "Someone could write a program to query the ENUM database and obtain every line of your contact information and send spam to every communications device you own," said Chris Hoofnagle, legislative director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center in Washington. Hoofnagle added that industry claims that consumers would be able to opt out of the system, or otherwise protect their private information, are hollow. "There could be coercion down the road [by marketers] to push consumers to use ENUM to store their contact information. Absent legislation, there is likely to be abuse." Since the Federal Communications Commission regulates the nation's telephone industry and the Commerce Department administers key contracts that allow private firms such as Mountain View, Calif.-based Verisign Inc. to register Internet domain names, the government is likely to play a powerful role in the outcome of ENUM. Its backing of further ENUM development is the most significant support yet for the technology. It comes as a newly created industry group, called the ENUM-Forum, agreed last week to an ambitious schedule to conclude work on ENUM by next May. "This is a big milestone," Gary W. Richenaker, of Telcordia Technologies Inc., said of the group's first meeting last Monday. Richenaker, who chaired the gathering, said that officials of the State Department, Federal Trade Commission and Commerce Department attended. ENUM would work by combining two massive electronic databases: North American telephone numbers now administered by a Washington company called NeuStar Inc. and the main database that routes Internet messages, which is largely controlled by Verisign. An ENUM address reverses a standard phone number and appends "e164.arpa" to it. For example, the toll-free directory assistance number would be converted to 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.0.0.8.1.e164.arpa. ENUM would recognize both the e164.arpa address and the phone number as belonging to directory assistance. With some software tweaks to the current Internet system, computers could be made to route messages to such 11-digit ENUM addresses in much the same way they now use up to 12-digits to send e-mail and display Web pages. Although industry engineers recently completed technical specifications for ENUM, AT&T, Cisco Systems Inc., SBC Communications Inc. and more than 20 members of the ENUM-Forum agreed last week to work out additional critical details of the system. ENUM-Forum players also include AOL Time Warner Inc., British Telecommunications plc and NetNumber.com Inc.--a Web start-up that has been operating a private, volunteer ENUM system for nearly a year. The companies will tackle operational and security issues, such as who would be authorized to make service changes. Phones are ordinarily associated with street addresses, not individuals, so businesses and households with more than one person or phone would need to determine who has control over the ENUM associated with the phones. The State Department's Minard said his Aug. 21 letter reflected the input of several government agencies but termed the document a "draft" that could change as industry details about ENUM evolve. Minard declined to elaborate on the misgivings expressed about ENUM in the letter. Other sources say ENUM is most strongly supported by the Commerce Department, while the FCC and State Department remain wary of the potential political fallout from embracing the technology. The industry, too, is divided over how much the government should be involved. The heavily regulated telephone industry supports a broader government role than do Internet companies such as Verisign and AOL Time Warner. Stacy M. Cheney, an attorney for the Commerce Department, said the government has not decided whether to play any regulatory role. But he said officials support "continuing discussions" on ENUM and would send representatives to a Sept. 12 meeting of an International Telecommunication Union panel to discuss the technology. Industry officials liken ENUM's potential effect to the introduction of touch-tone dialing in 1963. That advance paved the way for a host of modern phone features, including the ability to bank by phone and navigate voicemail menus. ENUM "could be a huge boon to Internet telephony and basic communications convergence," said Aristotle Balogh, vice president of technology at Verisign. ENUM, however, may never be embraced by businesses or consumers because of the privacy concerns. The technology will also require support from Internet service providers, software developers, phone carriers and others. Still, ENUM is expected to gain momentum with the government's support. It could also get a big boost from efforts by Microsoft Corp. and AOL Time Warner to make new versions of their software support ENUM technology. http://www.latimes.com/technology/la-090102privacy.story From sandfort at mindspring.com Sun Sep 2 20:51:42 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 20:51:42 -0700 Subject: Wuss-ninnies object to discussions on the list In-Reply-To: <200108300400.f7U401f01468@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: Heck, I was at Burning Man and just got back. Tim wrote: > Then we had Sandy Sandfort weighing in with > his comment that some Cypherpunks are going > to be in deep trouble with The Man. I think > Sandy even forecast my death in a shootout. Well, I was dead-bang right-on about Jim Bell, wasn't I? Perhaps Tim is confusing advocacy with prediction. I don't advocate the shooting of Tim May, but I think there is a substantial chance (10-20%?), that it will happen. I wouldn't want to risk those odds, but TMMV. S a n d y From whaazup at hotmail.com Sun Sep 2 21:09:21 2001 From: whaazup at hotmail.com (whaazup at hotmail.com) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 00:09:21 -0400 Subject: info that you requested Message-ID: <200109030357.WAA26450@einstein.ssz.com> ÐÏࡱál freedom. Read on... Thank you for your time and Interest. This is the letter you've been reading about in the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the Internet, a major nightly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of the program described below to see, if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved once and for all that there are, absolutely no laws prohibiting the participation in the program. This has helped to show people that this is a simple, harmless, and fun way to make some extra money at home. The results of this show have been truly remarkable. So many people are participating that those involved are doing much better than ever before. Since everyone makes more as more people try it out, its been very exciting to be a part of lately. You will understand once you experience it. "HERE IT IS BELOW." ************************************************* Print This Now (IF YOU HAVE NOT already done it) for Future Reference The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in taking a look at. It can be started with VERY LITTLE investment and the income return is TREMENDOUS!!! THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEYMAKING OPPORTUNITY. It does not require you to come into contact with people, do any especially hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail. Simply follow the instructions, and you really can make this happen. This e-mail order-marketing program works every time if you put in the effort to make it work. E-mail is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of this non- commercialized method of advertising NOW! The longer you wait, the more savvy people will be taking your business using e-mail. Get what is rightfully yours. Program yourself for success and dare to think BIG. Sounds corny but its true. You'll never make it big if you dont have the belief system in place. ************************************************************** My name is Jonathan Rourke. Two years ago, the corporation I worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was eliminated. After unproductive job interviews, I decided to open my own business. Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial problems. I owed my family, friends, and creditors over $35,000. The economy was taking a toll on my business and I just couldn't seem to make ends meet. I had to refinance and borrow against my home to support my family and struggling business. At that moment something significant happened in my life and I am writing to share the experience in hopes that this will change your life forever financially! In mid December of 1997, I received this program via e-mail. Six months prior to receiving this program, I had been sending away for information on various business opportunities. All of the programs I received, in my opinion, were not cost effective. They were either too difficult for me to comprehend or the initial investment of hundreds of thousands of dollars was too much for me to risk to see if they would work or not. One claimed that I would make a million dollars in one year... it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it! But like I was saying, in December of 1997 I received this program. I didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing list. Thank goodness for that! After reading it several times, to make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes. Here was a money making phenomenon! I could invest as much as I wanted to start, without putting me further into debt. After I got a pencil and paper and figured it out, I would at least get my money back. But like most of you I was still a little skeptical and a little worried about the legal aspects of it all. So I checked it out with the U.S. Post Office (1-800-725-2161 24-hrs) and they confirmed that it is indeed legal! After determining the program was Legal and not a chain letter, I decided "Why not?." Initially I sent out 10,000 e-mails. It cost me about $25 for third party bulk emailing. The great thing about e-mail is that I don't need any money for printing to send out the program, and because all of my orders are fulfilled via e- mail, the only expense is my time or advertising costs. I am telling you like it is. I hope it doesn't turn you off, but I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how much money it cost me. Here is the basic version of what you need to do: Your first goal is to "Receive at least 20 orders for Report #1 within 2 weeks of your first program going out. IF YOU DON'T, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!" Your second goal is to "Receive at least 150 orders for report #2 within 2 weeks. IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. Once you have your 150 orders, relax, you've met your goal, you will make $50,000 but keep at it! If you don't get 150 right off, keep at it! It just may take some time for your down line to build, keep at it, stay focused and do not let yourself get distracted! In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for Report #1. I kept at it.. kept mailing out the program and By January 13, I had received 26 orders for Report #1. My first step in making $50,000 was done. By January 30, I had received 196 orders for Report #2, 46 more than I needed. So I relaxed, but kept at it mailing out programs via classified ad leads at first and then later via bulk email ads (not free like classifieds but much more effective). By March 1, three months after my e-mailing of the first 10,000 I had hit $58,000 with more coming in every day. I paid off ALL my debts and bought a much-needed new car. Please take time to read the attached program, IT CAN CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER!!! Remember, it won't work if you don't try it. This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rules of not trying to place your name in a different place. It won't work, you'll lose out on a lot of money! In order for this program to work very fast ( you will make money no matter what as long as you do some mailing of programs) try to meet your goal of 20 orders for REPORT #1, and 150 orders for REPORT #2 and you will make $50,000 or more in 90 days. If you don't reach the first two goals within two weeks, relax, you will still make a ton of money it may just take a few months or so longer. But keep mailing out programs and stay focused ! Thats the key! I am living proof that it works! If you choose not to participate in this program, I am sorry. It really is a great opportunity with minimal risk to you. If you choose to participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to financial security. If you are a fellow business owner and are in financial trouble like I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a sign. I DID! Sincerely, Jonathan Rourke PS Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) looks like piled up on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME! Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. ************************************************** THINK ABOUT IT: Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil and figure out what could happen when YOU participate. Figure out the worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will still make a lot of money! You will definitely get back what you invested. Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in. IT WORKS! Jody Jacobs, Richmond, VA ************************************************** HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU THOUSANDS OF DOLLAR$ INSTRUCTIONS: This method of raising capital REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME. If you get to work and stay focused on it! I am sure that you could use extra income or more in the next few months. Before you say, "NO WAY... ", please read this program carefully. This is a legal money making opportunity. Basically, this is what you do: As with all multi-level businesses, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products. Every state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-level business partners, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent. YOUR ORDERS COME BY MAIL AND ARE FILLED BY E-MAIL, so you are not involved in personal selling. You do it privately in your own home, store, or office. This is the GREATEST Multi-Level Mail Order Marketing anywhere: This is what you MUST do: 1. Order all 5 reports shown on the list below (you can't sell them if you don't order them). * For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, YOUR NAME & RETURN ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to the person whose name appears on the list next to the report. * When you place your order, make sure you order each of the five reports. You will need all five reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. * Within a few days, you will receive, via e-mail, each of the five reports. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. 2. IMPORTANT-- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than is instructed below in steps "a" through "g" or you will lose out on the majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you'll also see how it doesn't work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter it, it will not work. a. Look below for the listing of available reports. b. After you've ordered the five reports, take this Advertisement and remove the name and address under REPORT #5. This person has made it through a cycle and is no doubt on their way to $50,000 ! c. Move the name and address under REPORT #4 down to REPORT #5. d. Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to REPORT #4. e. Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3. f. Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to REPORT #2. g. Insert your name and address in the REPORT #1 position. Please make sure you copy every name and address ACCURATELY! Copy and paste method works well. (on IBM compatibles machines highlight the text you want to move and press ctrl-C to copy it and then click where you want it to go and then hit Ctrl - V to paste it in. Or use the edit menu.) 3. Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and save it to your computer. Make NO changes to the Instruction portion of this letter. Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can afford $25!). You obviously already have an Internet Connection and e-mail, which you use to fill your orders its basically FREE! To assist you with marketing your business on the Internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing information which includes how to send bulk e- mails, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much, much more. There are two primary methods of building your down line: METHOD #1: SENDING BULK E-MAIL Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we'll assume you and all those involved send out only 2,000 programs each. Let's also assume that the mailing receives a 0.5% response. Using a good list, the response could be much better. Also, many people will send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000. But continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs. With a 0.5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1. Those 10 people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000. Out of those 0.5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2. Those 100 people mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000. The 0.5% response to that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3. Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each for a 2,000,000 total. The 0.5% response to that is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4. That amounts to 10,000 each of $5 bills for you in CASH MONEY! Then think about level five! Your total income in this example would be $50 $500 $5,000 $50,000 for a total of $55,550 ! REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF THE 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO "ABSOLUTELY NOTHING" AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF HALF-SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF 2,000. Believe me, MANY people will do just that, and more! REPORT #2 will show you the best methods for bulk e-mailing, and email software. METHOD #2 - PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET 1. Classified Advertising on the web via message boards/ classified sites is very inexpensive, and there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to place ads. Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it works. Assume your goal is to get ONLY 10 people to participate on your first level. (Placing a lot of FREE classified ads on the Internet will EASILY get a larger response). Also, assume that everyone else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 down line members. Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results Below (same as email example): 1st level-your 10 members with $5............... $50 2nd level-10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100)....$500 3rd level-10 members from those 100 ($5 x1,000) $5,000 4th level-10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10k) $50,000 THIS TOTALS............................. ........$55,550 5th level-10 members from those 10,000 ($5 x 100k)???,???! Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only recruits 10 people each. Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20 people to participate! Many people get 100's of participants! THINK ABOUT IT! For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the report they ordered. THAT'S IT! ALWAYS TRY TO PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS! This will GUARANTEE that the e-mail THEY send out, with YOUR name and address on it, will be prompt. AVAILABLE REPORTS ---------------------------------------------------------- *** Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME *** Notes: - ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH (U.S. CURRENCY) FOR EACH REPORT CHEQUES ARE NOT ACCEPTED - ALWAYS SEND YOUR ORDER VIA FIRST CLASS MAIL - Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two sheets of paper (IF NOT MORE SO THAT THE BILL(s) CAN'T BE SEEN AGAINST LIGHT) - On one of those sheets of paper, include: (a) the number & name of the report you are ordering (b)your e-mail address (c) your name & postal address (as return address in case the post office encounters problems). PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW: Report #1 "The insider's Guide to Advertizing for free on the Internet." ORDER REPORT #1 FROM: Eric Allen 999 Westchester RD South Park, PA 15129 _______________________________________ REPORT #2 "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk E-mail on the Internet." ORDER REPORT #2 FROM: Maria Thibodeau PO Box 2294 Edgartown, MA 02539 __________________________________________________ REPORT #3 "The Insider's Guide to Multilevel Marketing on the Internet." ORDER REPORT #3 FROM: JC Cosi 17760 Candlewood Terrace Boca Raton, FL 33487 _______________________________________________ REPORT #4 "How to become a Millionare utilzing the Internet." ORDER REPORT #4 FROM: Andrew Moss 5959 Natchez Rd Riverside CA, 92509 ________________________________________________ REPORT #5 "How to become a Millionaire utilizing the Power of Multilevel Marketing and the Internet Part II" ORDER REPORT #5 FROM: Don Harpo 3028 Ridgeland Dr Jackson, MS 39212 _________________________________________________ About 50,000 new people get online every month! ******* TIPS FOR SUCCESS ******* * TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS! Be prompt, professional, and follow the directions accurately. * Send for the five reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when the orders start coming in because: * When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested product/report. * ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICES ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE. * Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the instructions exactly, your results WILL BE SUCCESSFUL! * ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED! ******* YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES ******* Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: Start posting ads as soon as you mail off for the reports! By the time you start receiving orders, your reports will be in your mailbox! For now.. something simple, such as posting on message boards something to the effect of "Would you like to know how to earn 50,000 working out of your house with NO initial investment? Email me with the keywords "more info" to find out how." ---- and when they email you , send them this report in response! If you don't receive 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks, keep at it, continue advertising or sending bulk e- mails UNTIL YOU DO. Then, a few weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT#2. If you don't, continue advertising or sending e-mails UNTIL YOU DO. Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, but continue to keep at it! Cash will continue to roll in! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a DIFFERENT report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. If you want to generate more income, send another batch of e-mails or continue placing ads and start the whole process again! There is virtually no limit to the income you will generate from this business! Before you make your decision as to whether or not you participate in this program. Please answer one question..... DO YOU "WANT" TO CHANGE YOUR LIFE? If the answer is yes, please look at the following facts about this program: 1. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST ANYTHING TO PRODUCE! 2. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST ANYTHING TO SHIP! 3. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST YOU ANYTHING TO ADVERTISE (except for bulk mailing costs if using that method)! 4. YOU ARE UTILIZING THE POWER OF THE INTERNET AND THE POWER OF MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING TO DISTRIBUTE YOUR PRODUCT ALL OVER THE WORLD! 5. YOUR ONLY EXPENSES OTHER THAN YOUR INITIAL $25 AND BULK MAILING COST INVESTMENT IS YOUR TIME! 6. VIRTUALLY ALL OF THE INCOME YOU GENERATE FROM THIS PROGRAM IS PURE PROFIT! 7. THIS PROGRAM REALY CAN CHANGE YOUR LIFE . ******* T E S T I M O N I A L S ******* This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't work and you'll lose a lot of potential income. I'm living proof that it works. It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with little cost to you. If you do choose to participate, follow the program exactly, and you'll be on your way to financial security. Stay focused on this program, don't let yourself get distracted stay focused on this program! Steven Bardfield, Portland, OR ****************************************************** My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody, and I live in Chicago, IL. I am a cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received the program, I grumbled to Jody about receiving "junk mail." I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I "knew" it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing didn't work... well, the laugh was on me! Within two weeks, she had received over 50 responses. Within 105 days, she had received over $47,200 in $5 bills! I was shocked! I was sure that I had it all figured and that it wouldn't work. I AM a believer now. I have joined Jody in her "hobby." I did have seven more years until retirement, but I think of the "rat race" and it's not for me. We owe it all to network marketing (MLM). Mitchell Wolf MD., Chicago, IL ****************************************************** The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount of money in a short time. I was approached several times before I checked this out. I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in the first 14 weeks, with money still coming in. If you are already in the program and haven't made at least this much, its because you need to stay ACTIVE! This thing is awesome, i did it, anyone can do it! Charles Morris, Esq. *************************************************** Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back. Boy, was I surprised when I found my medium-size post office box crammed with orders! For awhile, it got so overloaded that I had to start picking up my mail at the window. I'll make more money this year than any 10 years of my life before. The nice thing about this deal is that it doesn't matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment for what it allows you, personal freedom. Paige Willis, Des Moines, IA ************************************************** I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed another program. Eleven months passed then it came...I didn't delete this one!!! I made more than $41,000. This is for real, get to work. Violet Wilson, Johnstown, PA **************************************************** We have quit our jobs, and will soon buy a home on the beach and live off the interest on our money. The only way on earth that this plan will work for you is if you do it. For your sake, and for your family's sake don't pass up this golden opportunity. Good luck and happy spending! Kerry Ford, Centerport, NY *************************************************** ORDER YOUR REPORTS AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM! *************************************************** FOR YOUR INFORMATION: If you need help with starting a business, registering a business name, learning how income tax is handled, etc., contact your local office of the Small Business Administration (a Federal agency) 1-(800)827-5722 for free help and answers to questions. Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via telephone and free seminars about business tax requirements. IT IS TOTALLY UP TO YOU NOW!!! CAN YOU HANDLE SUCCESS AND ALL THAT MONEY??? ****************************************************** Under Bills.1618 Title III passed by the 105th US Congress this letter cannot be considered spam as the sender includes contact information and a method of removal. No request for removal is necessary as this is a one time e-mail transmission. **************************************************** qmps From mail07211 at mweb.com.cn Mon Sep 3 01:59:39 2001 From: mail07211 at mweb.com.cn (Alice) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 01:59:39 Subject: FREE CELL PHONE, FREE MEMBERSHIP, FREE SOFTWARE Message-ID: <200109021745.KAA01537@toad.com> YOUR FREE MEMBERSHIP!! Plus get a Free Cell Phone and Free Computer Software To Help YOU Make MORE Money !! CHECK IT OUT! http://www.freewebco.net/bizopp or http://www.freewebhostingcentral.cc/bizopp The Fastest Way To Earn $2000+ EVERY Month Online !!! Looking for a secure and legitimate online home business? 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DON"T MISS OUT !! http://www.freewebco.net/bizopp or http://www.freewebhostingcentral.cc/bizopp --------------------------------------------------------- This is a one time mailing and you will not be contacted again and though it is not necessary to request removal, you may do so by sending an email to: mailto:mail0719 at btamail.net.cn?subject=Please_Remove_Bizopp From mail07211 at mweb.com.cn Mon Sep 3 01:59:39 2001 From: mail07211 at mweb.com.cn (Alice) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 01:59:39 Subject: FREE CELL PHONE, FREE MEMBERSHIP, FREE SOFTWARE Message-ID: YOUR FREE MEMBERSHIP!! Plus get a Free Cell Phone and Free Computer Software To Help YOU Make MORE Money !! CHECK IT OUT! http://www.freewebco.net/bizopp or http://www.freewebhostingcentral.cc/bizopp The Fastest Way To Earn $2000+ EVERY Month Online !!! Looking for a secure and legitimate online home business? One that WILL bring steady, dependable monthly checks EVERY month and in the shortest amount of time ?? We can share with you a way to earn $1000's per month on the Internet and receive GUARANTEED monthly checks that will continue to grow. No Hype Here ! - We Can PROVE It !! Free To Join - Means Instant Growth ! Can YOU give away FREE memberships? Most Certainly !! All day long in fact, AND earn an explosive income in doing so ! No pre-launch here! Four year old company with proven system - that works !! Making money on the Internet has never been EASIER ! Join Free and get your own free web site where you can watch your downline grow before your eyes !! Check it daily then you decide !! See why thousands of people from all over the world are joining - FREE ! Lock in Your Position Today and we'll also give you promotional software that will increase traffic to ANY web site !! See for Yourself ! Grab your ID Here ! DON"T MISS OUT !! http://www.freewebco.net/bizopp or http://www.freewebhostingcentral.cc/bizopp --------------------------------------------------------- This is a one time mailing and you will not be contacted again and though it is not necessary to request removal, you may do so by sending an email to: mailto:mail0719 at btamail.net.cn?subject=Please_Remove_Bizopp From mail07211 at mweb.com.cn Mon Sep 3 01:59:39 2001 From: mail07211 at mweb.com.cn (Alice) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 01:59:39 Subject: FREE CELL PHONE, FREE MEMBERSHIP, FREE SOFTWARE Message-ID: YOUR FREE MEMBERSHIP!! Plus get a Free Cell Phone and Free Computer Software To Help YOU Make MORE Money !! CHECK IT OUT! http://www.freewebco.net/bizopp or http://www.freewebhostingcentral.cc/bizopp The Fastest Way To Earn $2000+ EVERY Month Online !!! Looking for a secure and legitimate online home business? One that WILL bring steady, dependable monthly checks EVERY month and in the shortest amount of time ?? We can share with you a way to earn $1000's per month on the Internet and receive GUARANTEED monthly checks that will continue to grow. No Hype Here ! - We Can PROVE It !! Free To Join - Means Instant Growth ! Can YOU give away FREE memberships? Most Certainly !! All day long in fact, AND earn an explosive income in doing so ! No pre-launch here! Four year old company with proven system - that works !! Making money on the Internet has never been EASIER ! Join Free and get your own free web site where you can watch your downline grow before your eyes !! Check it daily then you decide !! See why thousands of people from all over the world are joining - FREE ! Lock in Your Position Today and we'll also give you promotional software that will increase traffic to ANY web site !! See for Yourself ! Grab your ID Here ! DON"T MISS OUT !! http://www.freewebco.net/bizopp or http://www.freewebhostingcentral.cc/bizopp --------------------------------------------------------- This is a one time mailing and you will not be contacted again and though it is not necessary to request removal, you may do so by sending an email to: mailto:mail0719 at btamail.net.cn?subject=Please_Remove_Bizopp From Anti_Immigration-owner at yahoogroups.com Sun Sep 2 22:22:51 2001 From: Anti_Immigration-owner at yahoogroups.com (Anti_Immigration moderator) Date: 3 Sep 2001 05:22:51 -0000 Subject: Invitation to join the Anti_Immigration group Message-ID: <999494571.5441.5449.n4@yahoogroups.com> Hello, You've been invited to join the Anti_Immigration group, an email group hosted by Yahoo! Groups, a free, easy-to-use email group service. JOIN NOW, IT'S EASY: 1) REPLY to this email by clicking "Reply" and then "Send" in your email program -OR- 2) Go to the Yahoo! Groups site at http://groups.yahoo.com/invite/Anti_Immigration?email=cypherpunks%40toad%2Ecom&iref=q2SqGBJac5QCQuoGRhzOhQtozIg By joining Anti_Immigration, you will be able to exchange messages with other group members. Yahoo! Groups also makes it easy to store photos and files, coordinate events and more. Here's an introductory message from the group moderator: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ PLEASE REPLY TO THIS EMAIL AND YOU WILL BE AUTOMATICALLY ADDED TO THIS EMAIL LIST. ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION IS ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUES FACING OUR NATION TODAY. I urge you to join me on this yahoo anti-immigration email discussion list. It is easy to join the list. How? To join just send me a �reply� to this email and you will be automatically added to the anti-immigration email list. I started this Yahoo email list for the purpose of discussing the legal and illegal immigration that is threatening to overwhelm America and destroy our Republic. You and I have corresponded several times in the past. However, I have switched ISP's and email addresses several times and you may not remember me. The last time we corresponded I was using AOL and ModemPool.com as my primary ISP. If you wish to be removed from my anti-immigration email list just let me know and it will be immediately done. But I plead with you to stay on for a few weeks and give it a trial run. I promise you that you will read articles on this list that you will find super interesting and very informative. If you do not remember me nor recognize my email address, here are some of my old addresses that you may remember corresponding with me at; Bob1776 at modempool.com, WINDOW153 at AOL.COM, MAGoldbaum at Worldnet.att.net, JFAQ597 at AOL.COM, GKO38 at AOL.COM, SERG7GDR at AOL.COM, MAGoldbaum at Email.MSN.Com, RGW at Sojourn.com, BobfromMichigan77 at hotmail.com, BobfromMichigan74 at Hotmail.com, This is a moderated group and the volume of email in this list is intentionally kept to a very low number of emails per day (usually less than 1 per day weekly average). I pledge to never overfill your email box with too many emails. Please join this List and invite your friends join also. In general we post ONLY articles from REPUTABLE mainstream websites and newspapers, et al. Politically, I am very conservative, but this YAHOO email group will absolutely support free speech. I hate censorship and I will not censor anyone's opinion regardless of whether you are far left or far right unless you are an irrational & hateful person. So that you will know exactly where I am coming from I wrote the following; I AM A FAN OF Jesus Christ-The Bible-Human Events Newspaper-MediaByPass magazine-The New American Magazine-FreeRepublic.com-WorldNetDaily.com-Patriot Militia�s-General Douglas McArthur-President Ronald Reagan-Senator Joseph McCarthy-Robert Bork-Russell Kirk-Pat Buchanan-Allan Keyes-Dr. James Kennedy-R.J.Rushdoony-Andrew Sandlin-Gary North-Gary Demar-David Chilton-John Calvin-Jonathan Edwards-George Whitefield-Martin Luther-Donald Wildmon-Jay Sekulow-John Whitehead-John McManus-David Barton-Senator Bob Smith-Bob Dornan-Congressmen Ron Paul,Helen Chenoweth,George Hansen-Gordon Kahl-Howard Philips-Ludwig von Mises-F.A.Hayek-Milton Friedman-Russell Kirk-Martin Gross-Vin Suprynowicz-Walter Williams-Thomas Sowell-Alex Jones-Michael Savage-Frank from Queens-Shawn Hannity-Rabbi Daniel Lapin-Michael Medved-Chuck Morse-Don Feder-Sam Blumenfeld-Joseph Sobran-Michael Hoffman-Bo Gritz-Larry Becraft-Michael New- Charlotte Iserbyt-Beverly Eakman- Phyllis Schlafly-Joseph Farah-Charley Reese! -G! eorge Gilder-Paul Johnson-Alexis DeToqueville-Edmund Burke-Frederick Bastiat-Ayn Rand-George-Washington-James Madison-Patrick Henry-Thomas Jefferson-Noah Webster-David Horowitz-Reed Irvine-Paul Weyrich-Aaron Zelman-Larry Pratt and many more such heroes of liberty ATTENTION: PLEASE GO TO THE ARCHIVES OF THIS EMAIL LIST (ADDRESS BELOW) AND SEE THE MOST RECENT TYPES OF POSTS TO THIS EMAIL LIST. THANKS, BOB. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Anti_Immigration/messages � Archives, Recent messages sent from this list. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Anti_Immigration � A description of the Anti-immigration group Subscribe: Anti_Immigration-subscribe at yahoogroups.com Post message: Anti_Immigration at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: Anti_Immigration-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com List owner: Anti_Immigration-owner at yahoogroups.com My Email address: anti_immigration_man at yahoo.com My Email address: BobFromMichigan77 at Hotmail.com PS - PLEASE TELL OTHERS ABOUT THIS EMAIL LIST TOO! Welcome to the Anti_Immigration group at Yahoo! Groups, a free, easy-to-use email group service. Please take a moment to review this message. To start sending messages to members of this group, simply send email to Anti_Immigration at yahoogroups.com If you do not wish to belong to Anti_Immigration, you may unsubscribe by sending an email to Anti_Immigration-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com You may also visit the Yahoo! Groups web site to modify your subscriptions: http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups Regards, Moderator, Anti_Immigration ------------------------------------------------------------------------ If you do not wish to join the Anti_Immigration group, please ignore this invitation. SPECIAL NOTE FROM Yahoo! Groups: Because Yahoo! Groups values your privacy, it is a violation of our service rules for moderators to abuse this invitation feature. If you feel this has happened, please notify us at abuse at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From optin2000 at hotmail.com Mon Sep 3 07:24:28 2001 From: optin2000 at hotmail.com (Ross) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 09:24:28 -0500 Subject: Home Business Opportunity Message-ID: <200109031433.JAA28402@einstein.ssz.com> $ AMERICAS #1 HOME BASED BUSINESS $ Network Marketing is BOOMING on the Web! Learn how we’re sponsoring OVER 100,000 monthly worldwide without mailing anything, without faxing anything, without calling anyone! Totally Internet and system-driven and we’ve only scratched the surface. Get started FREE! Tap into the fastest, most ingenious FREE lead generating system on the Internet. If you want to build an Internet business 100% online from the comfort of your own home, you'll LOVE this simple, automated system ! Make commissions on unlimited depth ! That's right no levels !!! This is the plan you've been hoping for, no gotchas here, fair, simple and above all it works ! For the complete details on this incredible home business opportunity visit http://www.sixfigure1.freeservers.com Thank You & God Bless ========================================================== ============== This message connot be considered spam, I purchased your email address from a list server company that in good faith told me that you are an individual that is interested in receiving FREE offers via email I apologise if your email made it on to this list without your consent, my intentions are good and my FREE offfer just might change your life.You are not on any remailing list and will not here from me again unless you respond to the site below http://www.sixfigure1.freeservers.com Thank You From subscriptions at mcafee.com Mon Sep 3 10:52:00 2001 From: subscriptions at mcafee.com (subscriptions at mcafee.com) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 10:52:00 -0700 Subject: Your McAfee.com Password Request Message-ID: Dear joe, You have requested that we email you your McAfee.com password. Here is your complete login information at McAfee.com: Email Address: cypherpunks at toad.com McAfee.com Password: cypherpunk If you wish to change your registered email address or your password, please click here: -> http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/membership/update_profile_form.asp Thank you, McAfee.com Membership Services From memcy83101 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 3 09:21:02 2001 From: memcy83101 at yahoo.com (--EmailCenter--) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 11:21:02 -0500 Subject: 1/2 Price Email Sale Extended... Message-ID: <200109031621.LAA28878@einstein.ssz.com> ===================================== Start getting a response to your ad! ===================================== 50% OFF SALE-- FRESH 10,000 List 8-30-01!! 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NEW::::::: Check our our Ulimate Marketing CD!:::::::::: E-mail for the site details! - SPECIALS! - **FREE with EVERY order: Demo of ListMan e-mail manager software **Orders of 50,000 or more: FREE copy Express Mail Server to send your messages! -This is not a demo but a permanent license for the software! **Orders of 100,000 or more: - Resale Rights for EMS! -->You keep 100% of the profits - InfoDisk with 1000+ Money Making Reports - CheckMAN software _______________________________________________________________ To be removed from future mailings: mailto:memcy819001 at yahoo.com?Subject=Remove From n6jpa at wvi.com Mon Sep 3 12:07:25 2001 From: n6jpa at wvi.com (Keith) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 12:07:25 -0700 Subject: [PGP-USERS] Another Flaw in PGP found. Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 It seems a programer has found another security flaw in PGP. Details tomorrow and the web page is at: http://www.security.nl/artikel.php3?id=2293 if you read Dutch. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.8 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBO5PU3bwKMbGJKZceEQI7FACgwMnUV0zDjIF4TG5Df636NQaRmuoAoOub rbDtGn3YmaId3B8AstQ59m4f =KhFO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Best Regards, Keith YahooIM:strongsignals_com AIM:KeithYit23 ========================================================== Find Windows Freeware @ http://strongsignals.com/ The rec.radio.swap Email List http://groups.yahoo.com/group/recradioswap/ Microsoft said OE5 or better so I installed Pegasus V4! ========================================================== .................................................................... Unsubscribe: Automated Help/Info: List Homepage: List Admin (human): Please do not send administrative commands to the list address! Thanks. --- end forwarded text --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From hseaver at ameritech.net Mon Sep 3 10:38:49 2001 From: hseaver at ameritech.net (Harmon Seaver) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 12:38:49 -0500 Subject: Announce loop-AES-v1.4d file/swap crypto package References: <3B93B32A.69D25916@pp.inet.fi> Message-ID: <3B93C012.CF5B9180@ameritech.net> Any comments on this versus cryptoapi? It only allows you to use AES, whereas cyrptoapi gives a choice of several. Jari Ruusu wrote: > [linux-kernel also CC'd due to recent encrypted swap discussion] > > In short: If file and swap crypto is all you need, this package is a hassle > free replacement for international crypto patch and HVR's crypto-api. > > This package provides loadable Linux kernel module (loop.o) that has AES > cipher built-in. The AES cipher can be used to encrypt local file systems > and disk partitions. For more information about compiling and using the > driver, see the README file in the package. > > Features: > - GPL license. > - No source modifications to kernel. No patch hassles when you are upgrading > your kernel. > - Works with all recent 2.4, 2.2 and 2.0 kernels, including distro vendor > kernels. Encrypted disk images are compatible across all supported > kernels. > - AES cipher is used in CBC mode. Supports 128, 192 and 256 bit keys. > - Passwords hashed with SHA-256, SHA-384 or SHA-512. > - 512 byte based IV. IV is immune to variations in transfer size and does > not depend on file system block size. > - Device backed (partition backed) loop is capable of encrypting swap on 2.4 > kernels. > > Changes since previous release: > - Little speed optimization in aes-glue.c > - External encryption module locking bug is fixed (kernel 2.4 only). This > bug did not affect loop-AES operation at all. This fix is from Ingo > Rohloff. > - On 2.4 kernels, device backed loop maintains private pre-allocated pool of > RAM pages that are used when kernel is totally out of free RAM. This > change also fixes stock loop.c sin of sleeping in make_request_fn(). > > Kernel 2.4 users who want to encrypt swap partitions should upgrade to this > version. No need to upgrade if you use older 2.2 or 2.0 kernels. > > bzip2 compressed tarball is here: > > http://loop-aes.sourceforge.net/loop-AES-v1.4d.tar.bz2 > md5sum 404f82796bacc479deb266f13ec260b8 > > PGP signature file, my public key, and fingerprint here: > > http://loop-aes.sourceforge.net/loop-AES-v1.4d.tar.bz2.sign > http://loop-aes.sourceforge.net/PGP-public-key.asc > 1024/3A220F51 5B 4B F9 BB D3 3F 52 E9 DB 1D EB E3 24 0E A9 DD > > Regards, > Jari Ruusu > > Linux-crypto: cryptography in and on the Linux system > Archive: http://mail.nl.linux.org/linux-crypto/ -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 hseaver at cybershamanix.com Home 920-233-5820 hseaver at ameritech.net http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html From mattd at useoz.com Sun Sep 2 20:59:34 2001 From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 13:59:34 +1000 Subject: Toto in oz Message-ID: <009d01c1342c$d8d18660$427da6cb@mattd> Jim lives!http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=61450&group=webcast My name is jim bell,no MY name is jim bell...AAAAAAAAArrrgh! Im screwed. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 629 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mix at cybershamanix.com Mon Sep 3 12:24:10 2001 From: mix at cybershamanix.com (mix at cybershamanix.com) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 14:24:10 -0500 Subject: moral crypto Message-ID: <20010903142410.A2913@cybershamanix.com> What's with this moral crypto jive? Nomen sounds like Faustine in drag. Who cares if Osama benefits from crypto - he isn't any greater danger to our much tattered peace and freedom than Dubbya. Probably a lot less. From cell_phone_fun311510 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 3 13:34:36 2001 From: cell_phone_fun311510 at yahoo.com (cell_phone_fun311510 at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 15:34:36 -0500 Subject: nokia cell users 311510765433322 Message-ID: <200207062141.g66Lf4a26457@mail.vrfield.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 8325 bytes Desc: not available URL: From " greatsercer at crosswinds.net " at toad.com Mon Sep 3 15:45:24 2001 From: " greatsercer at crosswinds.net " at toad.com (" greatsercer at crosswinds.net " at toad.com) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 15:45:24 Subject: " bank statements " Message-ID: <200109260323.UAA06997@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4302 bytes Desc: not available URL: From " greatsercer at crosswinds.net " at toad.com Mon Sep 3 15:45:24 2001 From: " greatsercer at crosswinds.net " at toad.com (" greatsercer at crosswinds.net " at toad.com) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 15:45:24 Subject: " bank statements " Message-ID: <200109130427.VAA05107@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4302 bytes Desc: not available URL: From " greatsercer at crosswinds.net " at toad.com Mon Sep 3 15:45:24 2001 From: " greatsercer at crosswinds.net " at toad.com (" greatsercer at crosswinds.net " at toad.com) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 15:45:24 Subject: " bank statements " Message-ID: <200109171716.KAA13172@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4302 bytes Desc: not available URL: From " greatsercer at crosswinds.net " at toad.com Mon Sep 3 15:45:24 2001 From: " greatsercer at crosswinds.net " at toad.com (" greatsercer at crosswinds.net " at toad.com) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 15:45:24 Subject: " bank statements " Message-ID: <200109040022.RAA00898@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4302 bytes Desc: not available URL: From " greatsercer at crosswinds.net " at toad.com Mon Sep 3 15:45:24 2001 From: " greatsercer at crosswinds.net " at toad.com (" greatsercer at crosswinds.net " at toad.com) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 15:45:24 Subject: " bank statements " Message-ID: <200109242122.OAA02801@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4302 bytes Desc: not available URL: From " greatsercer at crosswinds.net " at toad.com Mon Sep 3 15:45:24 2001 From: " greatsercer at crosswinds.net " at toad.com (" greatsercer at crosswinds.net " at toad.com) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 15:45:24 Subject: " bank statements " Message-ID: <200109110204.TAA16479@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4302 bytes Desc: not available URL: From boomshado at earthlink.net Mon Sep 3 16:04:27 2001 From: boomshado at earthlink.net (boomshado at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 16:04:27 Subject: Tired of Working 9 to 5? 7 Message-ID: <200109031959.f83Jxd911359@localhost.localdomain> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1612 bytes Desc: not available URL: From schear at lvcm.com Mon Sep 3 17:35:11 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 17:35:11 -0700 Subject: Moral Crypto In-Reply-To: <200109021938.f82JcQf23312@slack.lne.com> References: <3B92258B.22440.158837BA@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010903173020.031fde98@pop3.lvcm.com> At 12:34 PM 9/2/2001 -0700, Tim May wrote: >On Sunday, September 2, 2001, at 12:26 PM, georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote: > > I stand by my earlier statement. The fact that you may be > > identifiable at the point of entry to an anonymity system is > > a weakness, not a desired feature, and if it can be avoided, it > > should be. > > > >Then design such a system. > >"Anyone a remailer, anyone a mint" is one strong approach. I know this suggestion has been made before, probably by myself, but it seems the remailer programmers may be missing a good opportunity in not pursuing the inclusion of remailer code in the popular Gnutella cleints (e.g., LimeWire). They advertise they are looking for new "content communities." http://www.limewire.com/index.jsp/formgroup I don't see any reason why email can't be added as a new form of content. steve From kravietz at aba.krakow.pl Mon Sep 3 08:46:40 2001 From: kravietz at aba.krakow.pl (Pawel Krawczyk) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 17:46:40 +0200 Subject: secure IRC/messaging successor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20010903174640.L17811@aba.krakow.pl> On Thu, Aug 30, 2001 at 06:41:18PM +0200, Eugene Leitl wrote: > Gale http://www.gale.org/ seems a well thought out infrastructure. Is the > consensus "this is it", or have I missed any alternatives? Have you seen http://www.silcnet.org/? -- Paweł Krawczyk *** home: security: *** fidonet: 2:486/23 From tcmay at got.net Mon Sep 3 17:59:02 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 17:59:02 -0700 Subject: Factoring challenges considered boring In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200109040102.f84123f27550@slack.lne.com> On Monday, September 3, 2001, at 05:55 PM, V. Alex Brennen wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On Mon, 3 Sep 2001, Steve Schear wrote: >> >> At 12:34 PM 9/2/2001 -0700, Tim May wrote: >>> >>> "Anyone a remailer, anyone a mint" is one strong approach. >> >> I know this suggestion has been made before, probably by myself, but it >> seems the remailer programmers may be missing a good opportunity in not >> pursuing the inclusion of remailer code in the popular Gnutella cleints >> (e.g., LimeWire). They advertise they are looking for new "content >> communities." http://www.limewire.com/index.jsp/formgroup I don't see >> any >> reason why email can't be added as a new form of content. > > I haven't heard this before. It's a good idea. > > I've tried to contact limewire about working with them on some > distributed resources coding concepts. I found them unreceptive. > They suck. > > I've started on the very beginnings of a GNU Distributed Computing > client to attack the RSA RC5 and factoring challenges. Jeez, why waste time on such an old-hat idea? I'm serious. The latest factoring and RC5 challenges do nothing new. Neither does using a bunch of machines. Been there, done that, got the tee-shirt. Better that you and other programmers spend effort on exactly what this thread is about: putting interesting features into Morpheus, Gnutella, etc. Better yet, using this P2P power to do a better version of either. But factoring challenges are old news. You're about 5 years too late (not that it was terribly interesting even 5 years ago...). --Tim May From sarrison at pacificresearch.org Mon Sep 3 18:28:56 2001 From: sarrison at pacificresearch.org (Sonia Arrison) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 18:28:56 -0700 Subject: PRI's Privacy Press Conference Message-ID: Dear Declan, Your Politech readers might be interested in our upcoming privacy press conference for the release of our new privacy paper: "Consumer Privacy: A Free Choice Approach." The event is this Wednesday, Sept. 5th, at the National Press Club in D.C. (see below). -Sonia **************************************** Sonia Arrison Director, Center for Freedom and Technology Pacific Research Institute 755 Sansome Street, Suite 450 San Francisco, CA 94111 415-989-0833 x107 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: DAWN DINGWELL August 30, 2001 (415) 989-0833, ext. 136 MEDIA ADVISORY Government Privacy Regulations will Harm Consumers, Innovation, and Free Speech, Study Says Press Conference: Wednesday, September 5, 2001 9:30 A.M. National Press Club Lisagor Room -- 13th Floor 529 14th Street, NW Washington, DC WHO: Sally C. Pipes, President, Pacific Research Institute (PRI) Sonia Arrison, Director, Center for Freedom and Technology (PRI); Author, Consumer Privacy: A Free Choice Approach Eugene Volokh, Fellow in Legal Studies (PRI); Constitutional & Copyright Law Professor, UCLA Law School WHAT: Press conference releasing Consumer Privacy: A Free Choice Approach, a new study from the San Francisco-based Pacific Research Institute. The speakers will discuss the study's findings, including: 7 Why self-regulation, contract law, and new technologies available to the public are the best way to protect consumer privacy 7 How federal privacy proposals will harm consumer interests, and threaten to impede tech innovation and free speech 7 An overview of more than a dozen technologies available to consumers that allow them to protect their own privacy, as well as emerging technologies WHEN: Wednesday, September 5, 2001 9:30 A.M. WHERE: National Press Club Lisagor Room -- 13th Floor 529 14th Street, NW Washington, DC 20045 WHY: Dozens of bills addressing consumer privacy are pending in Congress and state legislatures nationwide. In response, PRI will release its latest study, Consumer Privacy: A Free Choice Approach, demonstrating why expanding consumer choice through free-market alternatives is the best policy for protecting consumer privacy, including protection from government intrusion. www.pacificresearch.org ### ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. Declan McCullagh's photographs are at http://www.mccullagh.org/ To subscribe to Politech: http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- End forwarded message ----- From nuno.pinho at netvisao.pt Mon Sep 3 10:55:35 2001 From: nuno.pinho at netvisao.pt (Nuno Pinho) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 18:55:35 +0100 Subject: Password Message-ID: <000a01c134a1$a5e96540$e2b081d9@netvisao.pt> Please send the password of McAfee to this email: ricardo.pinho at iol.pt Please . -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 566 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ffapro at mail2agent.com Mon Sep 3 18:13:42 2001 From: ffapro at mail2agent.com (ffapro at mail2agent.com) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 19:13:42 -0600 (GMT) Subject: DEPOSIT $100 - $400 IN YOUR BANK ACCOUNT DAILY! 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Please make sure you include the email address in which you wish to have removed so we can make sure that you will never again receive an email from us. Thank you for your time and God Bless You! This email ad is being sent in full compliance with U.S. Senate Bill 1618, Title #3, Section 301." (which states "A statement that further transmissions of unsolicited commercial electronic mail to the recipient by the person who initiates transmission of the message may be stopped at no cost to the recipient by sending a removal request to the above email address.) From info at giganetstore.com Mon Sep 3 11:33:15 2001 From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 19:33:15 +0100 Subject: ...uma obra Imortal ! Message-ID: <0890d1533180391WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com> Jorge Amado deixou-nos... ..uma obra imortal! Reunimos, só para si, as mais célebres obras do talentoso escritor, que imortalizou o espírito, a cor e a vida da Baía. 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Chama-se Tieta, e Jorge Amado foi arrancá-la ao Agreste, onde era pastora de cabras... ----- Tenda dos Milagres Na ânsia de nos apresentar a figura de um certo Pedro Archanjo em sua inteireza, o autor encheu-se de ambição, quis abarcar o mundo com as pernas, misturou tempos e espaços romanescos, alhos e bugalhos. ----- Dona Flôr e seus dois maridos É, com efeito, uma história fascinante e pitoresca esta de Dona Flor, viúva alegre da Bahia, cujas noites de amor são atormentadas pelas visitas do seu defunto marido, anjo estranhamente tutelar, bem agarrado, no entanto, aos gozos e aos bens terrenos de outrora. ----- Gabriela Cravo e Canela É sobretudo um romance de amor: o amor da mulata Gabriela, heróico, selvático, primitivo e livre. De uma sensualidade esfuziante, plena de alegria, enamorada da vida mesmo quando esta a atraiçoa, Gabriela transforma-se no símbolo da liberdade do amor. ----- ABC de Castro Alves Um baiano fala de outro baiano. Castro Alves, poeta do povo, defensor da abolição da escravatura e da implantação da República, bardo dos escravos e dos humildes, é restituído, através da palavra de ouro de Jorge Amado, á sua dimensão de figura exemplar das letras brasileiras. ----- Gato Malhado e a Andorinha Sinhá “A história de amor do Gato Malhado e da Andorinha Sinhá, eu a escrevi em 1948, em Paris, onde então residia com minha mulher e meu filho João Jorge, quando este completou um ano de idade: presente de aniversário; para que um dia ele a lesse. Colocado junto aos pertences da criança, o texto se perdeu e somente em 1976, João, bulindo em velhos guardados, o reencontrou, dele tomando finalmente conhecido.(...)” Ver mais produtos » ----- Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site http:\\www.giganetstore.com , ir à edição do seu registo e retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das nossas promoções e novos serviços -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 7307 bytes Desc: not available URL: From schear at lvcm.com Mon Sep 3 19:39:23 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 19:39:23 -0700 Subject: Gnutella remailers (was Re: Moral Crypto) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010903173020.031fde98@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010903193312.03229740@pop3.lvcm.com> At 08:55 PM 9/3/2001 -0400, V. Alex Brennen wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > >On Mon, 3 Sep 2001, Steve Schear wrote: > > > > At 12:34 PM 9/2/2001 -0700, Tim May wrote: > > > > > >"Anyone a remailer, anyone a mint" is one strong approach. > > > > I know this suggestion has been made before, probably by myself, but it > > seems the remailer programmers may be missing a good opportunity in not > > pursuing the inclusion of remailer code in the popular Gnutella cleints > > (e.g., LimeWire). They advertise they are looking for new "content > > communities." http://www.limewire.com/index.jsp/formgroup I don't see any > > reason why email can't be added as a new form of content. > >I haven't heard this before. It's a good idea. > >I've tried to contact limewire about working with them on some >distributed resources coding concepts. I found them unreceptive. >They suck. Maybe you're suggestion was too far afield from their ambitions for LimeWire. Maybe they thought you were a jerk. Maybe... In any case Lime is getting great reviews from friends regarding easy of learning, use and flexibility. It seems that if a few of the technically competent want to raise this issue with them perhaps we should discuss this a bit to see if we can reach something of a consensus and then have on of the coders make contact with Steve Cho at scho at limepeer.com From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Sep 3 18:10:12 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 20:10:12 -0500 (CDT) Subject: moral crypto In-Reply-To: <20010903142410.A2913@cybershamanix.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Sep 2001 mix at cybershamanix.com wrote: > What's with this moral crypto jive? Nomen sounds like Faustine > in drag. Who cares if Osama benefits from crypto - he isn't any > greater danger to our much tattered peace and freedom than > Dubbya. Probably a lot less. That's a stretch but you're welcome to your own opinion. Dubbya can be voted out of office, Osama and most other nutcases can't. -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Sep 3 18:11:20 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 20:11:20 -0500 (CDT) Subject: OPT: Fwd: [PGP-USERS] Another Flaw in PGP found. (fwd) Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 313 bytes Desc: not available URL: From fm at espace.net Mon Sep 3 12:17:24 2001 From: fm at espace.net (Fearghas McKay) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 20:17:24 +0100 Subject: Fwd: [PGP-USERS] Another Flaw in PGP found. Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text From vab at cryptnet.net Mon Sep 3 17:55:19 2001 From: vab at cryptnet.net (V. Alex Brennen) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 20:55:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Moral Crypto In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010903173020.031fde98@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 1610 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Sep 3 19:04:16 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 21:04:16 -0500 (CDT) Subject: BitTorrent 2.2 is out (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 12:57:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Bram Cohen To: People who supposedly write code Subject: Re: BitTorrent 2.2 is out On Sun, 2 Sep 2001, Bram Cohen wrote: > I just pushed out BitTorrent 2.2, the protocols are now frozen. Silly me, I forgot to include the url - http://bitconjurer.org/BitTorrent/ -Bram Cohen "Markets can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent" -- John Maynard Keynes From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Sep 3 19:22:19 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 21:22:19 -0500 Subject: Slashdot | A Number For Everything Message-ID: <3B943ADB.D0B786E7@ssz.com> http://slashdot.org/yro/01/09/04/0033211.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From juicy at melontraffickers.com Mon Sep 3 21:57:09 2001 From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 21:57:09 -0700 Subject: Gnutella remailers Message-ID: <65a9be17a1236f6260aa16a77ae46faa@melontraffickers.com> > I know this suggestion has been made before, probably by myself, but it > seems the remailer programmers may be missing a good opportunity in not > pursuing the inclusion of remailer code in the popular Gnutella cleints > (e.g., LimeWire). They advertise they are looking for new "content > communities." http://www.limewire.com/index.jsp/formgroup I don't see any > reason why email can't be added as a new form of content. Remailers are trickier than other P2P applications because of the problem of sending the mail out. If one of the P2P users gets "volunteered" to be the outgoing portal for some harrasing mail, he won't be running the client for long. However if the recipients are restricted to users of the P2P network then this is not a problem. An anonymous email application just for P2P users would be interesting. It could be part of a continuum of applications like anonymous chat with varying degrees of real-time delivery. KNet, knet.sourceforge.net, is a new project on P2P anonymous chat. If that works, then email could be done by adding some kind of queueing feature which would hold messages for delivery until the recipient connects to the P2P network. There wouldn't be many problems with complaints about abuse because everyone would be volunteering to receive anonymous mail/chat by virtue of using the network. Probably the biggest complaint people would have is untraceable spam. It's already a nuisance with other chat systems. If the anonymous comm system has per-user traffic limits or some other way of handling spam then it could be a good basis for no holds barred discussions and data exchange. From schear at lvcm.com Mon Sep 3 22:42:19 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 22:42:19 -0700 Subject: Gnutella remailers In-Reply-To: <65a9be17a1236f6260aa16a77ae46faa@melontraffickers.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010903223344.031f7730@pop3.lvcm.com> At 09:57 PM 9/3/2001 -0700, A. Melon wrote: > > I know this suggestion has been made before, probably by myself, but it > > seems the remailer programmers may be missing a good opportunity in not > > pursuing the inclusion of remailer code in the popular Gnutella cleints > > (e.g., LimeWire). They advertise they are looking for new "content > > communities." http://www.limewire.com/index.jsp/formgroup I don't see any > > reason why email can't be added as a new form of content. > >Remailers are trickier than other P2P applications because of the problem >of sending the mail out. If one of the P2P users gets "volunteered" >to be the outgoing portal for some harrasing mail, he won't be running >the client for long. I believe Ian Goldberg came up with a rather elegant solution: allow the the clients to only function as entry and middlemen remailers and use throwaway accounts at hotmail or similar fall guys as the exit points. >Probably the biggest complaint people would have is untraceable spam. >It's already a nuisance with other chat systems. If the anonymous comm >system has per-user traffic limits or some other way of handling spam >then it could be a good basis for no holds barred discussions and data >exchange. Hashcash or a similar computation-based postage (e.g., the camram project, if it ever gets itself together) is probably a better solution to SPAM (untraceable or not). steve From profits4u34 at hotmail.com Mon Sep 3 23:20:52 2001 From: profits4u34 at hotmail.com (profits4u34 at hotmail.com) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 23:20:52 Subject: Let us Pay your way into 3 Rapidly growing MLM companies Message-ID: <200109040429.XAA32011@einstein.ssz.com> THE WANNA BEE FOUNDATION Let us put the pieces together for YOU The Wanna Bee Foundation is NOT a Multi-Level Company. It has NO matrix or payout. We are not putting hundreds of thousands of people into MLM programs, not even hundreds, only a few will get this opportunity to have a chance to become a member of the "Wanna Bee Foundation". Your entry is voted on by the members, then placed into 3 MLM companies (FREE). Only after you are in profit in at least 2 of them, are you required to pay your monthly dues to each of the companies. The annual fee is $29.95. Each individual company will send you a recruiting kit after you become a member. GUARANTEE -- We guarantee you to be in profit before you are asked to complete the applications FOR THE INDIVIDUAL COMPANIES. We will mail out, at no extra cost to you, from one to three million offers a month. All members joining from this email advertising will be placed in all of your downlines. ALL THIS FOR $29.95. PLEASE VISIT: http://hometown.aol.com/joinwbf FOR MORE INFORMATION ABOUT THIS EXCITING OPPORTUNITY. If you are accepted by the WBF, they pay your way into all three companies (any kit fees, plus first month fees). When you are in profit in at least two of the three companies, you are asked to join, and then have 10 days to respond or you lose your position on the team. As a Safelist Emailer member, they mail the WBF information with your ID on it. You even get a copy of the leads that your email advertisement generated (generally between 800 to 3000 per month). You may also use the same leads for any purpose you choose, they can be emailed to you. Now, with each WBF member getting from one to three million email adds sent each month, that adds up to millions + millions of people world wide getting our message each and every month. With this system, getting only one one-hundredth of one percent on the Internet, this will still put new members in each company for YOU every month. Then, the new members will team with you to do more mailings. This message is sent in compliance of the new email bill HR 1910. Under Bill HR 1910 passed by the 106th US Congress on May 24, 1999, this message can not be considered spam as long as we include the way to be removed. Per Section HR 1910., please type REMOVE in the subject line and reply to this email. All removal requests are handled personally and immediately From freematt at coil.com Mon Sep 3 21:37:31 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 00:37:31 -0400 Subject: Scottish CCTV Surveillance Fails To Cut Crime Rate Message-ID: CCTV fails to cut crime rate http://www.edinburghnews.com/news.cfm?id=EN01146615 INCREASES in fighting and abusive behaviour in an East Lothian town have cast doubt on the effectiveness of closed circuit television. Traders in Haddington said the CCTV system had done little to reduce i ncidents of drug dealing and abuse in the area. Police were called out last weekend after a report of a youth in a white car "driving like crazy" in the town centre. However, when police attended the scene, the trouble had stopped and no-one was willing to come forward. In a second incident, police were called to a fight outside the Gardener's Arms public house, but when they arrived the people involved had dispersed. The criticism comes as a review of CCTV systems in East Lothian is under way. Traders are disappointment the CCTV has not done more to prevent crime. One said it had produced "little result". Monday, 27th August 2001 __________________________________________________________________________ Distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. --- ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************** From drsk at doctor.com Tue Sep 4 02:10:19 2001 From: drsk at doctor.com (drsk at doctor.com) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 01:10:19 -0800 Subject: FOREVER YOUNG -samples Message-ID: <37138.048842430560000.240436@localhost> World wide well known revolutionary program of natural rejuvenation: NO CHEMICALS! NO SURGERY! NO LASER! NO RECOVERY! NOT TRICKS! Wrinkles, eye bags, dark circles, pigmentation, scars, cellulite, stretch marks, acne, sagging skin, aging marks and all kinds of skin disorders diminish after first application and disappear gradually! Samples for 5 days $60 Free samples sh&h $20 E-mail us: drsk at dr.com Subject: Forever young Body text: DETAILS From vab at cryptnet.net Mon Sep 3 22:34:48 2001 From: vab at cryptnet.net (V. Alex Brennen) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 01:34:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: ANNC: cks-0.0.5 Released (fwd) Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 2196 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pieterg at altavista.com Tue Sep 4 02:10:37 2001 From: pieterg at altavista.com (Pieter Grobler) Date: 4 Sep 2001 02:10:37 -0700 Subject: Please Sign This Petition - Zimbabwe Message-ID: <20010904091037.24635.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From pieterg at altavista.com Tue Sep 4 02:17:49 2001 From: pieterg at altavista.com (Pieter Grobler) Date: 4 Sep 2001 02:17:49 -0700 Subject: Please Sign This Petition - Zimbabwe Message-ID: <20010904091749.25139.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From vab at cryptnet.net Tue Sep 4 00:14:50 2001 From: vab at cryptnet.net (V. Alex Brennen) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 03:14:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Gnutella remailers (was Re: Moral Crypto) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010903193312.03229740@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 3391 bytes Desc: not available URL: From vab at cryptnet.net Tue Sep 4 00:38:19 2001 From: vab at cryptnet.net (V. Alex Brennen) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 03:38:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Factoring challenges considered boring In-Reply-To: <200109040102.f84123f27550@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Sep 2001, Tim May wrote: > On Monday, September 3, 2001, at 05:55 PM, V. Alex Brennen wrote: > > > > I've started on the very beginnings of a GNU Distributed Computing > > client to attack the RSA RC5 and factoring challenges. > > Jeez, why waste time on such an old-hat idea? > > I'm serious. The latest factoring and RC5 challenges do nothing new. The goal is to develop an architecture to allow access to collective processing power. Hopefully, much like this mailing list, it will drive the establishment of a sense of community and serve to reinforce a developing culture. The reinforcement of the idea of community computing, networking, and information, resources can help drive a desire for a greater realization of those things and the development of supporting group of people for extensions of those ideas. For example, ideas like FreeNet, which are derived from the cryptoanarchist school of thought. So, the answer to your question is that it's interesting to me and I'm the one doing the programming. If you can come up with something more interesting I'll probably be happy to work on it. But I'm not really interested in padding the pockets of the Lime Group, LCC. and I'm buzz worded out on P2P. What I like is the idea of trying to revitalize the cypherpunk movement - even a very tiny little bit. I'm really very disappointed with the Individual Sovereignty/Cryptoanarchy subculture lately. It seems to be running out of steam. There seems to be very few people working on interesting things. Coderpunks is a ghost town with occasional spam rolling through like a tumble weed, and cypherpunks seems to be obsessed with Jim Bell like a bunch of little girls over the back street boys. Is anyone else writing code? - VAB From contactus at collectiondirectory.com Tue Sep 4 06:27:48 2001 From: contactus at collectiondirectory.com (AR Management Consultants) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 06:27:48 -0700 Subject: Attention Collection Agencies and Attorneys, advertise your business for as little as 19 cents per day! Message-ID: <200109041327.f84DRcO28724@ak47.algebra.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 27664 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ENCorperations at aaemail.com Tue Sep 4 06:42:21 2001 From: ENCorperations at aaemail.com (ENCorporation) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 06:42:21 Subject: FOR WOMEN ONLY(but men buy it to)!! Message-ID: <200109041144.GAA01250@einstein.ssz.com> AT LONG LAST!! Women can now enjoy physical sensation safely and naturally, with this non-presciption gel. (Over half the customers are men who buy for their ladies) For more information, send an email to ENCorperations at aaemail.com This message was provided by the service of ENCorporations. From ENCorperations at aaemail.com Tue Sep 4 07:06:30 2001 From: ENCorperations at aaemail.com (ENCorporation) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 07:06:30 Subject: FOR WOMEN ONLY!!!(but men buy it to) Message-ID: <200109041208.HAA01707@einstein.ssz.com> AT LONG LAST!! Women can now enjoy physical sensation safely and naturally, with this non-presciption gel. (Over half the customers are men who buy for their ladies) For more information, send an email to ENCoperations at aaemail.com This message was provided by the service of ENCorporations. From sidney.r.phillips at Boeing.com Tue Sep 4 07:27:58 2001 From: sidney.r.phillips at Boeing.com (Phillips, Sidney R) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 07:27:58 -0700 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <56EC06CAC5361C478AF8BE6BC8CB3E36665B45@XCH-SEA-14.nw.nos.bo eing.com> auth 45e8a0f4 subscribe cypherpunks sidney.r.phillips at Boeing.com From sethf at sethf.com Tue Sep 4 04:52:23 2001 From: sethf at sethf.com (Seth Finkelstein) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 07:52:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: BESS vs The Google Search Engine (Cache, Groups, Images) Message-ID: Available at: http://sethf.com/anticensorware/bess/google.php BESS vs The Google Search Engine (Cache, Groups, Images) Abstract: This report examines how N2H2's censorware deals with archives of large amount of information. Three features are examined from the Google search engine (Cache, Groups, Images). N2H2/BESS is found to ban the cached pages everywhere, pass porn in groups, and consider all image searching to be pornography. The general problems of censorware versus large archives are discussed (i.e., why censorware is impelled to situations such as banning the Google cache). -- Seth Finkelstein Consulting Programmer sethf at sethf.com http://sethf.com http://archive.nytimes.com/2001/07/19/technology/circuits/19HACK.html BESS's Secret LOOPHOLE: http://sethf.com/anticensorware/bess/loophole.php ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************** From freematt at coil.com Tue Sep 4 05:29:06 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 08:29:06 -0400 Subject: BESS vs The Google Search Engine (Cache, Groups, Images) Message-ID: From Dynah022 at hotmail.com Tue Sep 4 08:36:39 2001 From: Dynah022 at hotmail.com (Dynah022 at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 08:36:39 Subject: [-= YOU WON a $1,000.00 Cash Or 4 Airplane Ticket... =-] . 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From ericm at lne.com Tue Sep 4 10:21:33 2001 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 10:21:33 -0700 Subject: Moral Crypto In-Reply-To: <20010904123852.A12545@cluebot.com>; from declan@well.com on Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 12:38:52PM -0400 References: <3B92258B.22440.158837BA@localhost> <200109021938.f82JcQf23312@slack.lne.com> <20010904123852.A12545@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20010904102133.A30958@slack.lne.com> On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 12:38:52PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: > On Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 12:34:31PM -0700, Tim May wrote: > > The other remailers can theoretically band together as some kind of > > guild and reject packets from "rogue" remailers, but there are numerous > > practical problems. Identifying a "rogue" remailer which "allows" > > packets from "baddies" (e.g, from Mormons, or free speech advocates) > > In the next five years or so, I would not be suprised to see a call > for federal licensing of remailers. I don't think that there is enough remailer traffic or remailers to require the feds to go throught the work of getting a law passed and setting up a licensing program. It's be nice if there was! It's more likely that remailers will get closed outright. There will probably be an ISP or email licensing program put into place, with the same "code of conduct" and/or mandatory logging that you think will be forced on remailers being forced on all email servers. Remailers would be found in violation of the order and shut down. Another way to kill remailers would be through anti-spam legislation that forbids "forging" email headers. We're already seeing some of this. Or, the feds will just set up a 'sting' on the remailer system by sending kiddie porn or bomb-making info through the remailer net and then busting each exit point in turn. It doesn't even need to be with charges which would stick in court, as almost anyone will fold when thrown in jail for a while and/or faced with huge legal bills. My guess is that the first or second is most likely. It won't even be targeted at remailers, just at regular email. Killing remailers will be a by-product of regulating the net. Eric From ericm at lne.com Tue Sep 4 10:28:59 2001 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 10:28:59 -0700 Subject: Gnutella remailers In-Reply-To: <20010904132116.C14093@cluebot.com>; from declan@well.com on Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 01:21:16PM -0400 References: <65a9be17a1236f6260aa16a77ae46faa@melontraffickers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20010903223344.031f7730@pop3.lvcm.com> <20010904132116.C14093@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20010904102859.B30958@slack.lne.com> On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 01:21:16PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: > On Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 10:42:19PM -0700, Steve Schear wrote: > > I believe Ian Goldberg came up with a rather elegant solution: allow the > > the clients to only function as entry and middlemen remailers and use > > throwaway accounts at hotmail or similar fall guys as the exit points. > > Maybe, but it's vulnerable to a few things, I'd wager, if you're talking > about writing a client that would log in to a web-based mail service > and then send mail from within it: > > * Automated monitoring by Hotmail/Yahoo/Lycos Mail/etc. If an account > usually sends 10 messages/day, look for spikes in traffic two standard > deviations above the mean and temporarily block access to that account. > Or require human intervention to re-enable that account. > > * Anti-spam monitoring, similar to the above. What a remailer (who > logs into the service and and sends mail from within it, rather than > forging the From: line) would do is what a lot of spammers would like > to do too. One could instead bounce the traffic through the same mail servers that spammers use. Judging from the spam I get, most of those are poorly-admined sites thast don't know that they're being used to forward spam. Of course this isn't very moral. Eric From HWoody at freecongress.org Tue Sep 4 07:48:31 2001 From: HWoody at freecongress.org (Hannah Woody) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 10:48:31 -0400 Subject: Protecting Privacy, SIGN THIS LETTER Message-ID: Matt, I am the coordinator of the Coalition for Constitutional Liberties and we are currently circulating a letter to organizations about the privacy violations involved in the drug war. This letter does not call for legalization at all, it simply brings forth important privacy related issues. With this letter, we are calling for the Senate Judiciary Committee to ask the Director of the Office of National Drug Control Policy nominee, John Walters, if he will protect privacy. Please consider signing on and perhaps sending it to your list. Thanks! Email Hannah Woody at hwoody at freecongress.org with your name and business/organization. Coalition for Constitutional Liberties A project of the Free Congress Foundation's Center for Technology Policy 717 Second Street NE * Washington, DC 20002 * (202) 546-3000 * Fax (202) 543-5605 http://www.freecongress.org/ September 3, 2001 Sen. Patrick J. Leahy, Chairman Sen. Orrin G. Hatch, Ranking Member Senate Judiciary Committee United States Senate 224 Dirksen Office Building Washington, DC 20510 Re: Nomination of John Walters Dear Chairman Leahy, Senator Hatch and Members of the Senate Judiciary Committee: We are part of a broad coalition of groups concerned that the War on Drugs has degraded our privacy and civil liberties. We respectfully ask that the members of Committee consider raising the following privacy and civil liberties issues in connection with the nomination of John Walters to be the Director of the Office of National Drug Control Policy (Office of the White House). We intend by issuing this letter to signal neither support nor opposition to Mr. Walters' nomination. Rather, we hope are issuing the letter to urge members of the Committee to explore these issues in connection with Mr. Walters' nomination. As we set forth below, these issues include the use of new surveillance and investigative technologies, including the Carnivore/DCS1000 and Echelon systems, the "Know Your Customer" proposal of the Financial Action Task Force, asset forfeiture abuses, wiretaps and the drug war's sometimes corrupting influence on law enforcement itself. Rapid advances in technology have unfortunately brought with them new opportunities for the invasion of privacy in the form of programs like Carnivore, a system designed to allow the FBI to sift through vast quantities of Internet communications, or "Know Your Customer," -a proposed regulation requiring banks to collect personal financial information about their customers, "profile" them, and report "suspicious activities" to the Government. The misguided drug war is often a driving force behind these initiatives. "Know Your Customer" was prompted largely to further the drug war by combating drug-related money laundering. The FBI claims that Carnivore helps in narcotic investigations. We are concerned that "profiling," including racial profiling, appears to be an accepted component of the federal government's war on drugs. As noted by Georgetown University Law professor David Cole, characteristics of "drug courier profiles" used by U.S. Customs at airports have included: * Arrived late at night. * Arrived early in the morning. * Arrived in afternoon ... * One of first to deplane. * One of last to deplane. * Deplaned in the middle ... * Bought coach ticket. * Bought first class ticket ... * Used one-way ticket. * Used round-trip ticket ... * Traveled alone. * Traveled with a companion ... * Wore expensive clothing. * Dressed casually ... * Suspect was Hispanic. * Suspect was black female. In short, everyone anywhere at any time could fit the profile of a drug courier according to U.S. Customs officials. Court records confirm that highway patrol officers both in California and in New Jersey were taught to profile automobile drivers using minority status as an excuse to stop them, search their car, and in some cases, find drugs, a process known as racial profiling. In fact, civil rights organizations have charged that the DEA's own Operation Pipeline actually trains state and local law enforcement agents to engage in racial profiling. The extent to which our drug policy drives government surveillance and invasion of privacy is especially clear in the case of wiretaps. Three quarters of all wiretaps are authorized for narcotics investigations. The Administrative Office of the United States Courts reports that annually approximately 80 percent of conversations intercepted on wiretaps are innocent communications. In addition to government surveillance, there has been an increasing effort to have private businesses monitor their customers in order to fight the drug war. In the case of the "Know Your Customer" proposal now being resurrected by the FATF, the government attempts to force customer monitoring through regulation. More and more often, the DEA is using financial incentives to induce businesses to report personal information about their customers to the government. This undermines both consumer privacy and businesses' relationships with their customers. In April, the Albuquerque Journal reported that Amtrak was providing access to its ticketing database to the Drug Enforcement Administration. Amtrak provided agents with information such as passengers' last names, their destinations, their method of payment, and whether they were going on a round trip or only one-way. In return, Amtrak was given 10% of anything the government seized. Although controversy led Amtrak to discontinue the DEA's computer access, the company still provides information gleaned from the ticketing system to law enforcement officers and continues to receive a portion of assets seized on trains by agents. Several airlines reportedly have similar "cash for snooping and snitching" programs. The Amtrak case demonstrates the degree to which forfeiture laws are giving an incentive for law enforcement and private businesses to focus on seizing property supposedly related to drug crimes. The system is still very susceptible to abuse and one does not have to be convicted of a crime before their property is taken. Before the passage of the Civil Asset Forfeiture Act of 2000, which addressed some of the more egregious abuses, eighty percent of people who had property forfeited were never charged with a crime. While this number will likely become lower because of the reforms, the abuse of forfeiture laws continues. As reports (some of which were initiated by members of this Committee), have shown, the war on drugs has had a corrupting influence on the professionalism of law enforcement; one March 1999 GAO report described the problem as a "serious and continuing threat." We urge you to raise these issues with Mr. Walters and ask for assurances that he will reform the conduct of the drug war in order to address these problems and ensure that drug policies respect the privacy and other civil liberties of all Americans. If you have any questions or would like to discuss these issues further, please contact J. Bradley Jansen of the Free Congress Foundation at 202-204-5324 or by email at bjansen at freecongress.org . Respectfully, Paul M. Weyrich Founder and President Free Congress Foundation Lisa S. Dean Vice President for Technology Policy Free Congress Foundation Grover Norquist Karen Kerrigan President Chairman Americans for Tax Reform Small Business Survival Committee Tom DeWeese David Banisar President Deputy Director American Policy Center Privacy International, London Amy Ridenour Chuck Muth, Chairman President Michael D. Ostrolenk, Capital Hill Liason The National Center for Public Policy Research Republican Liberty Caucus Gordon S. Jones Eric E. Sterling President Association of Concerned Taxpayers The Criminal Justice Policy Foundation Dr. Jane Orient, M.D. Carol W. LaGrasse Executive Director President Association of American Physicians and Surgeons Property Rights Foundation of America, Inc. Larry Cirignano Joseph Eldred President President and Founder CatholicVote.org God Bless America Dr. Alexander Tabarrok,Vice James Landrith Vice President and Director of Research Editor and Publisher The Independent Institute The Multiracial Activist & Abolitionist Examiner Benjamin Crocker Works Hank Whitmore Executive Director Chairman The Strategic Issues Research Institute of the United States People Against Church Taxation Eric Johnson Audrey Mullen Chairman Consultant Young Americans for Freedom Advocacy Ink Dottie Feder Miriam Archer Vice President Director of Operations Eagle Forum of Wisconsin Christian Coalition of California Ronald D. Bain Robert D. Lonn Former Chairman Consultant/Planner Libertarian Party of Colorado NW Council of Government & Associates Patricia J. Owens Peter J. LaGrasse Executive Director Chairman Wisconsin State Sovereignty Coalition Board of Assessors (New York) Duane Royal Galen E. Alexander Sampson County Republican Executive Committee (North Carolina) Founder & Chairman Ohio Conservative Alliance Victoria T. DeLacy Prince William & Manassas Family Alliance (Virginia) Warren Nelson Founder & Commander Helen E. Farson Ector County Volunteers (Tennessee) Phonetic Bible Printing Committee Roy S. Gillinson, M.D. ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************** From mmotyka at lsil.com Tue Sep 4 10:59:08 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 10:59:08 -0700 Subject: speech + action References: <3B8FD09A.3F0BF50E@lsil.com> <20010831185402.A429@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <3B95166C.481C3D03@lsil.com> Declan McCullagh wrote: > > On Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 10:59:54AM -0700, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: > > Sure, I mention it because despite its being non-functional and > > unpunishable it seemed to have been brought into the courtroom with the > > purpose of spicing up the case. > > Sure. If you commit unacceptable-to-the-gvt *actions* and also spend a > lot of time talking about how government officials should be > assassinated, you may reasonably expect those statements to be used > against you during your trial. > > But that is a far cry from your earlier government-has-this-power > position, from which you're now backtracking. > > -Declan > Not so much backtracking as thinking out loud. Just musing on how the letter of the law, its constitutionality, enforcement and even the reasoning behind its creation are not always lined up so well. 18 U.S.C. 23 1 contains the seeds of the speech+action idea. Mike From tcmay at got.net Tue Sep 4 11:19:43 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 11:19:43 -0700 Subject: speech + action In-Reply-To: <3B95166C.481C3D03@lsil.com> Message-ID: <200109041822.f84IMjf31760@slack.lne.com> On Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 10:59 AM, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: > Declan McCullagh wrote: >> >> On Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 10:59:54AM -0700, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: >>> Sure, I mention it because despite its being non-functional and >>> unpunishable it seemed to have been brought into the courtroom with >>> the >>> purpose of spicing up the case. >> >> Sure. If you commit unacceptable-to-the-gvt *actions* and also spend a >> lot of time talking about how government officials should be >> assassinated, you may reasonably expect those statements to be used >> against you during your trial. >> >> But that is a far cry from your earlier government-has-this-power >> position, from which you're now backtracking. >> >> -Declan >> > Not so much backtracking as thinking out loud. Just musing on how the > letter of the law, its constitutionality, enforcement and even the > reasoning behind its creation are not always lined up so well. > > 18 U.S.C. 23 1 contains the seeds of the speech+action idea. > Please explain. You made the first assertion of this, then "backslid" as people poked holes in your argument, now you appear to be swinging back in the other direction merely by asserting something about "seeds." Could you give a cite for any prosecutions, or are you just speculating that "Happy Fun Court" will not be "amused" by free speech? Comment: It seems to me we are seeing way too many people hitting the panic button, speculating about some of us getting shot by agents of happy fun courts, claiming that merely using secrecy methods is spoliation, arguing that speech is being criminalized, and that, in essence, we'd all better just slink away from these free speech and crypto thoughtcrimes. Fuck that. Don't let the wuss ninnies scare you off. --TIm May From v342vfyt at msn.com Tue Sep 4 08:21:29 2001 From: v342vfyt at msn.com (v342vfyt at msn.com) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 11:21:29 -0400 Subject: Time for a Coffee? 2780 Message-ID: <200109040315.UAA19393@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 906 bytes Desc: not available URL: From schear at lvcm.com Tue Sep 4 11:32:36 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 11:32:36 -0700 Subject: Official Anonymizing In-Reply-To: <200109041749.NAA26560@granger.mail.mindspring.net> References: <20010904125751.A13920@cluebot.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20010831183757.03a22020@pop3.norton.antivirus> <5.1.0.14.2.20010831183757.03a22020@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010904111319.03269ec0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 01:42 PM 9/4/2001 -0700, John Young wrote: >On ZKS selling anonymizing products that are publicly available >to governmental officials does raise an issue of whether officials >should, or should be able to, conceal their official identities when >working cyberspace in an official capacity. I think not, though >it might be as impossible to get officials to comply as with >terrorists so long as the technology is there. I recall reading last week that an Oregon Supreme Court decision makes mandatory that state LE operate only in the clear (no pseudo-anon identities). Prosecutors are wringing their hands. steve From andrew.mcmeikan at mitswa.com.au Mon Sep 3 20:48:26 2001 From: andrew.mcmeikan at mitswa.com.au (McMeikan, Andrew) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 11:48:26 +0800 Subject: my name and address Message-ID: <7644F1D1E938EC4B93465E25544B253F099B08@mits_perth_com1.mitswa.com.au> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 2352 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gbroiles at well.com Tue Sep 4 12:18:25 2001 From: gbroiles at well.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 12:18:25 -0700 Subject: Moral Crypto In-Reply-To: <20010904123852.A12545@cluebot.com> References: <200109021938.f82JcQf23312@slack.lne.com> <3B92258B.22440.158837BA@localhost> <200109021938.f82JcQf23312@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010904112236.03706810@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 12:38 PM 9/4/2001 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: >In the next five years or so, I would not be suprised to see a call >for federal licensing of remailers. Some of the more mainstream >remailer operators might even go along with it, eventually, calling >for a "voluntary-mandatory" code of conduct and industry self- >regulation. Rather than a direct ban on remailers, I think a creeping expansion of the DMCA is more likely, and a greater threat. Instead of making remailing a criminal act - where only law enforcement is able to chase violators - it's more effective to change liability rules, empowering lots of aggrieved parties to do their own takedowns. The civil version of the DMCA has already been more effective in limiting programmer speech than 20 years of ITAR and BXA regs were - not because the penalties are scarier, but because they're swifter, more certain, and applied to upstream providers instead of actual infringers, which changes those providers into reluctant (but effective) local enforcers. (this is just a corporate/institutional version of "the policeman inside", discussed eventually on the list every time the "make bombs d00d" topic occurs - see ) Whereas many people reasonably calculated that their odds of being successfully prosecuted under a criminal enforcement scheme are very low - just look at the ratio of law enforcement agents to individuals using the Internet - broadening the categories of "enforcer" and "viable target" changes that calculation dramatically. By making every content provider a virtual prosecutor, and every ISP/web host/web page publisher/remailer a target, it's a lot easier to find someone to sue - and with that kind of risk in the air, potential targets get a lot more conservative and interested in suppressing the behavior in question. >I can envision a legal situation that is close to the Napster-Gnutella >controversy, where the entry points to the network are targets for the >RIAA/MPAA lawyers. Similarly, the entry points to the remailer network >may be targets under such a legal structure. Yeah - at least if the content isn't nested-encrypted, such that there's no reasonable way to identify content or its source. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at well.com "We have found and closed the thing you watch us with." -- New Delhi street kids From tcmay at got.net Tue Sep 4 12:28:29 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 12:28:29 -0700 Subject: Moral Crypto In-Reply-To: <20010904102133.A30958@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: <200109041931.f84JVSf32298@slack.lne.com> On Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 10:21 AM, Eric Murray wrote: > On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 12:38:52PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: >> On Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 12:34:31PM -0700, Tim May wrote: >>> The other remailers can theoretically band together as some kind of >>> guild and reject packets from "rogue" remailers, but there are >>> numerous >>> practical problems. Identifying a "rogue" remailer which "allows" >>> packets from "baddies" (e.g, from Mormons, or free speech advocates) >> >> In the next five years or so, I would not be suprised to see a call >> for federal licensing of remailers. > > I don't think that there is enough remailer traffic or remailers > to require the feds to go throught the work of getting a law passed > and setting up a licensing program. It's be nice if there was! > > It's more likely that remailers will get closed outright. Either one runs seriously afoul of the First Amendment. Remailers are publishers. Publishers cannot be "licensed," nor can they simply be closed down. There is no issue of the "public airwaves," which is what allowed the FCC to license broadcasters and to yank the licenses of those who ran afoul of various rules. One who takes in submissions, processes them according to his own proecedures, and then sends some output to other sites is a publisher. Further, it is doubtful than any of the oft-discussed "all packets must be traceable to a meatspace" person are constitutional. The little matter of "unsigned political fliers" comes to mind (though fascists like McCain, Feingold, Feinstein, and others are attempting to use "campaign finance reform" to require meatspace identities). And there are various practical enforceability issues, discussed here so often: -- the vast number of "degrees of freedom" in networks, intranets, mixes inside warehouses, wireless, transnational, regulatory arbitrage, stego, etc. I could write more on this, but I gotta go. --Tim May From declan at well.com Tue Sep 4 09:38:52 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 12:38:52 -0400 Subject: Moral Crypto In-Reply-To: <200109021938.f82JcQf23312@slack.lne.com>; from tcmay@got.net on Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 12:34:31PM -0700 References: <3B92258B.22440.158837BA@localhost> <200109021938.f82JcQf23312@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: <20010904123852.A12545@cluebot.com> On Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 12:34:31PM -0700, Tim May wrote: > The other remailers can theoretically band together as some kind of > guild and reject packets from "rogue" remailers, but there are numerous > practical problems. Identifying a "rogue" remailer which "allows" > packets from "baddies" (e.g, from Mormons, or free speech advocates) In the next five years or so, I would not be suprised to see a call for federal licensing of remailers. Some of the more mainstream remailer operators might even go along with it, eventually, calling for a "voluntary-mandatory" code of conduct and industry self- regulation. This code of conduct might mean refusing packets from some countries, keeping logs for a certain amount of time, etc. (Identity escrow, ala key escrow. Key escrow died because of business pressure. No similar pressure exists against identity escrow.) In practice, it will naturally have limited effect, since it's easy enough to send mail to an offshore remailer, and any U.S. law will spur development and deployment of non-U.S. services. And bin Ladin can probably figure out how to get an AOL account. Then again, other countries, at least the larger OECD ones, may follow suit. Probably in those other nations, there will be few if any constitutional safeguards prohibiting legislatures from enacting such laws. Even in the U.S., I'm not sure why it would be immediately obvious that such a law would be found to be unconstitutional. The usual cites, such as McIntyre, deal with the most protected form of anonymous communication, political speech about elected officials, not the multiple horsemen who can be relied on to trot about during debates. I can envision a legal situation that is close to the Napster-Gnutella controversy, where the entry points to the network are targets for the RIAA/MPAA lawyers. Similarly, the entry points to the remailer network may be targets under such a legal structure. Underground remailers will always exist, and will be used for high-value transactions (let's hope enough remailers would exist to provide enough security), but a robust system that's also mainstream may not. I'm not saying this is especially likely, but it is a scenario that's worth contemplating as a long-term possibility. -Declan From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Sep 4 12:40:22 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 12:40:22 -0700 Subject: Errata - Re: Cypherpunks List Info In-Reply-To: <200109030300.f83300h24272@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010904123821.0310f0f0@idiom.com> Infonex.com is the same system as cyberpass, so it's presumably dead now. The information on UNsubscribing still should be there, since some people may need to do that, but subscriptions don't need to be. At 08:00 PM 09/02/2001 -0700, cpunk at lne.com wrote: >Cypherpunks Distributed Remailers list info. > >Last updated: 8/22/01 > >This message is also available at http://www.lne.com/cpunk > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Infonex: > >Subscription: "subscribe cypherpunks" to majordomo at infonex.com >Unsubscription: "unsubscribe cypherpunks" to majordomo at infonex.com >Help: "help cypherpunks" to majordomo at infonex.com >Posting address: cypherpunks at infonex.com >Filtering policy: raw >Message Modification policy: no modification >Privacy policy: ??? > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- From declan at well.com Tue Sep 4 09:57:51 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 12:57:51 -0400 Subject: News: "U.S. May Help Chinese Evade Net Censorship" In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010831183757.03a22020@pop3.norton.antivirus>; from gbroiles@well.com on Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 06:48:24PM -0700 References: <5.1.0.14.2.20010831183757.03a22020@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <20010904125751.A13920@cluebot.com> On Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 06:48:24PM -0700, Greg Broiles wrote: > When you talk about "collaborating" and ZKS selling beta software to the > NSA, are you saying you've got information that ZKS gave the NSA access to > more information than the general public got, and/or that the NSA got their > access or information meaningfully earlier than the general public? > > If that's the case, that's interesting, but that's too serious a claim to > let pass by as an unstated implication. > > If that's not the case - and they had the same access to the Freedom beta > code that the rest of us outsiders/Cypherpunks/critics/commentators did - > then I don't see an issue here. Right. Selling the same products to the Feds that are available to the general public is not generally objectionable, and I don't see what the issue is with ZKS here. One might as well complain about the NSA buying symbolic debuggers. -Declan From declan at well.com Tue Sep 4 10:03:57 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 13:03:57 -0400 Subject: Tim's Tips on Avoiding Prosecution In-Reply-To: <200109011605.f81G51f18011@slack.lne.com>; from tcmay@got.net on Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 09:01:56AM -0700 References: <3.0.6.32.20010831181443.00867460@pop.sprynet.com> <200109011605.f81G51f18011@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: <20010904130357.A14093@cluebot.com> On Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 09:01:56AM -0700, Tim May wrote: > Specificity matters. If someone with some ability to influence urges his > followers to "Kill Jews," and some of them begin to, expect an > "incitement" (and perhaps "conspiracy") charge to stick against the > speaker. If someone mere opines that Jews should be killled, protected > speech. I suspect you may be right as a general rule. But if a federal prosecutor (or a state one, for that matter), is going to bring charges against someone for incitement or conspiracy in a case where some people have been killed, I suspect that a "should be killed" line may be enough to garner a conviction if you knew or should have known that folks would act on what you say. In other words, your thought processes at the time and your expectation of success matters. This is just a hunch; I haven't researched the caselaw here. -Declan From declan at well.com Tue Sep 4 10:11:12 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 13:11:12 -0400 Subject: How strong Can I? In-Reply-To: <200109020624.f826ODf21066@slack.lne.com>; from tcmay@got.net on Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 11:19:43PM -0700 References: <007401c1338c$132ae1e0$28279eac@computer> <200109020624.f826ODf21066@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: <20010904131112.B14093@cluebot.com> Also, if by "free distribution" you mean putting it on a web site, I recall you are technically required to inform the Export Authorities (aka the Department of Commerce BXA). Probably a felony if you don't, depending on whether you're distributing source or object code, though I doubt you'd be prosecuted, but you may want to check into this rather than relying on my hazy recollection. -Declan On Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 11:19:43PM -0700, Tim May wrote: > On Sunday, September 2, 2001, at 01:44 AM, Dave wrote: > > > Im writing a toy for personal use that i may give away sooner or later, > > are > > there limits on how strong i can make the crypto max key length for > > personal, > > use for free distrubtion inside the us? Not sure on the exact legalities > > involved if i gave it way... Some help would be nice. > > > > There are no restrictions whatsoever...except... > > -- you can't give certain kinds of crypto to Bad People (Hizbollah, > Bader-Meinhof, Kurds in Turkey (OK to give to Kurds in Iraq), and so > on...consult the List of Bad People). > > -- your program may be subject to a Secrecy Order, similar to the one > that silenced the inventor of the PhasorPhone. If this happens you will > not be able to disclose your invention to anyone and you may be unable > to even reveal that you are under such a Secrecy Order. > > Other than these possibilities, go for it, dude. > > --Tim May From declan at well.com Tue Sep 4 10:21:16 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 13:21:16 -0400 Subject: Gnutella remailers In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010903223344.031f7730@pop3.lvcm.com>; from schear@lvcm.com on Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 10:42:19PM -0700 References: <65a9be17a1236f6260aa16a77ae46faa@melontraffickers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20010903223344.031f7730@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <20010904132116.C14093@cluebot.com> On Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 10:42:19PM -0700, Steve Schear wrote: > I believe Ian Goldberg came up with a rather elegant solution: allow the > the clients to only function as entry and middlemen remailers and use > throwaway accounts at hotmail or similar fall guys as the exit points. Maybe, but it's vulnerable to a few things, I'd wager, if you're talking about writing a client that would log in to a web-based mail service and then send mail from within it: * Automated monitoring by Hotmail/Yahoo/Lycos Mail/etc. If an account usually sends 10 messages/day, look for spikes in traffic two standard deviations above the mean and temporarily block access to that account. Or require human intervention to re-enable that account. * Anti-spam monitoring, similar to the above. What a remailer (who logs into the service and and sends mail from within it, rather than forging the From: line) would do is what a lot of spammers would like to do too. * Contractual arrangements by the web-based mail operator that could, theoretically, make the remailer operator liable in some cases. Sorry to be such a downer today, but that doesn't seem like a wonderful solution -- at least after web-based mail services realize what you're doing and employ suitable technological/legal countermeasures. Perhaps an automated registration process might work,using a large number of accounts and automatically creating them as needed and discarding them when necessary. Though to escape (theoretical, in my hypothetical) legal liability, the initial setup and message-dumping would have to be done anonymously, raising the cost and hassle factor. -Declan From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Sep 4 13:25:07 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 13:25:07 -0700 Subject: The Privacy/Untraceability Sweet Spot - tools vs. services In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010904125157.03115b30@idiom.com> At 07:50 PM 08/31/2001 +0200, Nomen Nescio wrote: >But the more sophisticated technologies are not self-contained tools. >They require a supported and maintained infrastructure to operate. >Anonymous posters are painfully aware of how inadequate the current >remailer system is. A truly reliable and effective anonymity technology >will be more like a service than a tool. This means that the operators >choose to whom they will market and sell their services. It's a tough call. The services model has some obvious advantages - - business model, if they can develop one successfully, to fund enough servers, clients, jurisdictions, and ISPs to overcome the inertia, hassle, and dropout factor that make it hard to create and sustain a scalable secure system. ZKS doesn't appear to have succeeded, but perhaps an expensive system for more paranoid users or profitable applications (e.g. tax avoidance through jurisdictional arbitrage or tax evasion through money laundering) can win. - potentially higher software and service quality. - less subject to changing fads, e.g. a Napster failed - will Gnutella? But it has some serious drawbacks - - you have to trust the service, unless you can be sure it's designed with no way for the operators to trace the users, including subtle methods like making sure Usual Suspects get connected to compromised remailers. - centralization makes them attackable - Not everything's as centrally controllable as Julf's remailer was, but not everybody's as honest as he is about shutting down rather than continue service when vulnerable, and some governments are much more aggressive than Finland at attacking systems. - business models can fail - Napster Inc., ZKS aren't doing so well. - specialized markets may produce too small a user community, making it possible for eavesdroppers to watch the whole system. If there are only 100 players, you can pretty much tell who's using it, even if you don't know specifically who's talking to whom. For some target markets, this is ok, for instance if you're primarily trying to keep the communications patterns private from the other players in your market, rather than from outsiders, but for others it fails badly. For tool-based approaches, the ideal is to at least piggyback on some existing service, e.g. Apache, or Gnutella/Napster/etc., or ICQ/Jabber/AIM, so there are a large number of players and lots of cover traffic, making the system relatively sustainable and tracing difficult. From jya at pipeline.com Tue Sep 4 13:42:28 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 13:42:28 -0700 Subject: Official Anonymizing In-Reply-To: <20010904125751.A13920@cluebot.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20010831183757.03a22020@pop3.norton.antivirus> <5.1.0.14.2.20010831183757.03a22020@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <200109041749.NAA26560@granger.mail.mindspring.net> On ZKS selling anonymizing products that are publicly available to governmental officials does raise an issue of whether officials should, or should be able to, conceal their official identities when working cyberspace in an official capacity. I think not, though it might be as impossible to get officials to comply as with terrorists so long as the technology is there. Paul Sylverson, at NRL, took me to task recently for outing officials, claiming that one of the primary purposes of onion routing was to allow officials to conceal their actions in cyberspace. I answered that it was my opinion that officials had no right to conceal their identity when on the job, not the military, not the spooks, indeed, they should be obliged to reveal identity in cyberspace when at work, if not of the person then of the agency. Nobody has yet seen an fbi.gov in the logs, or nsa.mil/gov, though a few ucia.gov and nro.gov crop up, and the ubiquitous nscs.mil. That this would not apply to these officials in their private lives, that then they deserved fullest possible privacy protection. But none at all in their official roles. I propose that all anonymizers adopt a code of practice that any sale to officials of anonymizers or their use be disclosed to the public (I suggested this to ZKS early on when first meetings with the feds to explain the technology were being sometimes disclosed). That seems to be a reasonable response to officially-secret prowling and investigating cyberspace. If officials want to do that in secret they should obtain a public license, say to use onion, pipenet, remailers, or ZKS, Safeweb, and so on. That's a public license, not a government one, for a fee to help pay for the public's use without cost. At 12:57 PM 9/4/01 -0400, you wrote: >On Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 06:48:24PM -0700, Greg Broiles wrote: >> When you talk about "collaborating" and ZKS selling beta software to the >> NSA, are you saying you've got information that ZKS gave the NSA access to >> more information than the general public got, and/or that the NSA got their >> access or information meaningfully earlier than the general public? >> >> If that's the case, that's interesting, but that's too serious a claim to >> let pass by as an unstated implication. >> >> If that's not the case - and they had the same access to the Freedom beta >> code that the rest of us outsiders/Cypherpunks/critics/commentators did - >> then I don't see an issue here. > >Right. Selling the same products to the Feds that are available to the >general public is not generally objectionable, and I don't see what the >issue is with ZKS here. > >One might as well complain about the NSA buying symbolic debuggers. > >-Declan From frissell at panix.com Tue Sep 4 10:53:24 2001 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 13:53:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Border Control Protocol Failure Message-ID: But the question is: How can the Canadian Border Guards tell if a "letter from mom" is genuine? Major protocol failure. DCF >CANADA > >[John McCaslin, columnist for the Washington Times just returned from >vacation] > >U.S. passports are not required for entry into Canada, but as my 13-year-old >daughter and I rudely discovered during our northbound journey to climb >British Columbia's Mount Serendipity, a letter from "mom" is all but >mandatory. Upon our arrival at the Toronto airport, a female immigration >officer inquired if we carried a letter from my daughter's mother, giving >permission for her to travel with her dad. (I immediately wondered if >mothers are similarly expected to carry letters from fathers when traveling >with their children. I expect not.) When I replied that no such letter was >required under U.S. or Canadian law, my daughter was abruptly asked: "Does >your mother know you are on this trip?" Despite our mutual assurances that >mom all but packed bologna sandwiches for our much-anticipated mountain >trek, we were led to a special holding area where a second woman >interrogator soon launched an emotionally draining 15-minute >cross-examination that left my daughter in tears. "Is your mother aware that >you are on this trip?" my daughter was quizzed again. Yes. "Do you want to >be here?" Yes. "Are you sure?" Yes. "Is this your father?" Yes. Objecting, >for a second time, to the high degree of personal probing, I was warned that >such outbursts could land me in the Canadian gulag. "For all I know you >could be from Turkey," the woman said (I'm half Norwegian, half >Scotch-Irish). "Fortunately for you, you have an accent. Do you have any >criminal record?" At that point, seeing the tears well in my daughter's >eyes, I reached into my carry-on pack and retrieved my White House >correspondent's credentials, telling the officer to call George W. Bush if >she didn't believe me. "You don't have to get rude," she snapped. "For your >daughter's sake, you should be thanking me. Now you'll know next time." > >http://www.washtimes.com/national/inbeltway.htm From declan at well.com Tue Sep 4 11:17:52 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 14:17:52 -0400 Subject: Moral Crypto In-Reply-To: <20010904102133.A30958@slack.lne.com> References: <20010904123852.A12545@cluebot.com> <3B92258B.22440.158837BA@localhost> <200109021938.f82JcQf23312@slack.lne.com> <20010904123852.A12545@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010904141058.00a516a0@mail.well.com> At 10:21 AM 9/4/01 -0700, Eric Murray wrote: >I don't think that there is enough remailer traffic or remailers >to require the feds to go throught the work of getting a law passed >and setting up a licensing program. It's be nice if there was! Certainly not now, which is why I said I was talking about five years or so in the future. Going through the "work" can be something as simple as an attachment to a spending bill; unless it's controversial, it's truly not that difficult to do. Your point about ISPs as the targets for a "code of conduct" is a reasonable one, but the same analysis applies. Offshore ISPs will continue, at least at first, to host remailers, then perhaps be pressured into abandoning that plan if governments in other jurisdictions get sufficiently mobilized. Another point of attack, although more far-fetched, is restricting the sites to which network providers can carry traffic. A restriction like "knowingly providing connectiviting to a service that provides anonymous re-mailing capabilities." Then the helpful Feds will provide daily lists of offshore remailers. -Declan From declan at well.com Tue Sep 4 11:29:31 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 14:29:31 -0400 Subject: FC: PRI event 9/5 in DC: A "free choice approach" to privacy Message-ID: ********** From declan at well.com Tue Sep 4 11:31:13 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 14:31:13 -0400 Subject: Gnutella remailers In-Reply-To: <20010904102859.B30958@slack.lne.com>; from ericm@lne.com on Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 10:28:59AM -0700 References: <65a9be17a1236f6260aa16a77ae46faa@melontraffickers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20010903223344.031f7730@pop3.lvcm.com> <20010904132116.C14093@cluebot.com> <20010904102859.B30958@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: <20010904143113.A14876@cluebot.com> On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 10:28:59AM -0700, Eric Murray wrote: > One could instead bounce the traffic through the same mail servers > that spammers use. Judging from the spam I get, most of those > are poorly-admined sites thast don't know that they're being > used to forward spam. True, that's a possibility. But as anti-spam technology improves and social pressure increases (maybe not tomorrow, but certainly over the next few years), those sites will be far less useful than they are today. Open relay owners will close 'em up and RBLish block lists (perhaps more carefully targeted) will become more useful. I'd say that relying on open relays as a long-term solution to act as the exit point from a remailer chain is a poor strategy. -Declan From adam at homeport.org Tue Sep 4 11:33:21 2001 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 14:33:21 -0400 Subject: Official Anonymizing In-Reply-To: <200109041749.NAA26560@granger.mail.mindspring.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20010831183757.03a22020@pop3.norton.antivirus> <20010904125751.A13920@cluebot.com> <200109041749.NAA26560@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <20010904143321.A2385@weathership.homeport.org> On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 01:42:28PM -0700, John Young wrote: | I propose that all anonymizers adopt a code of practice that | any sale to officials of anonymizers or their use be disclosed | to the public (I suggested this to ZKS early on when first | meetings with the feds to explain the technology were being | sometimes disclosed). That seems to be a reasonable response | to officially-secret prowling and investigating cyberspace. Speaking for myself, I don't really want to know my customers any more than I absolutely must. If y'all are so willing to identify and treat differently one class of customers (spooks), I believe that you have no moral leg to stand on when a different class of customers (say, hispanics) are treated differently. If there's no morality bit in encryption, then there's no morality bit, and the fifth horsey of government can be as anonymous as the rest of us. Adam -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From declan at well.com Tue Sep 4 11:59:01 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 14:59:01 -0400 Subject: Official Anonymizing In-Reply-To: <200109041749.NAA26560@granger.mail.mindspring.net> References: <20010904125751.A13920@cluebot.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20010831183757.03a22020@pop3.norton.antivirus> <5.1.0.14.2.20010831183757.03a22020@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010904145248.025a7030@mail.well.com> At 01:42 PM 9/4/01 -0700, John Young wrote: >On ZKS selling anonymizing products that are publicly available >to governmental officials does raise an issue of whether officials >should, or should be able to, conceal their official identities when >working cyberspace in an official capacity. I think not, though >it might be as impossible to get officials to comply as with >terrorists so long as the technology is there. It seems to me that John is taking the first steps toward a general argument: That police should not be allowed to do undercover work. His argument, taken to its logical conclusion, would prevent police from infiltrating criminal organizations in meatspace (let's assume, for the moment, that we're talking about serious criminal acts against property and person, not victimless crimes). I propose that all anonymizers adopt a code of practice that >any sale to officials of anonymizers or their use be disclosed >to the public (I suggested this to ZKS early on when first >meetings with the feds to explain the technology were being >sometimes disclosed). That seems to be a reasonable response >to officially-secret prowling and investigating cyberspace. What happens when Anonymous Software Inc. sells its prepaid 300-minutes of anonymous browing kit through CompUSA and PC Warehouse? And, as others have pointed out, the people you most want to catch with this rule would have the strongest incentive to evade it. Anonymous remailers and browsing technology is user- and value-neutral. As a practical matter, it makes sense to assume that the Feds are using it. -Declan From djones at markmonitor.com Tue Sep 4 07:59:02 2001 From: djones at markmonitor.com (Markmonitor) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 14:59:02 +0000 Subject: .info landrush - pre-register now Message-ID: <0GJ500L5IJD5J5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Subject: .info Landrush Markmonitor, the worldwide leader in Internet intellectual property protection, is now accepting pre-registrations for the .info landrush period (September 12 -19). To date, Markmonitor has successfully registered over 92% of .info names requested by its customers. For more information and to set up an account, visit Markmonitor's Domain Solution Center at www.markmonitor.com today. In addition to registering your .info domain names, Markmonitor's Domain Solution Center can accommodate all of your domain registration needs, including: 1. High volume registration, in all gTLDs and over 150 ccTLDs 2. Global Domain Name Management (DNS, contact information) 3. Reporting 4. Renewal Management 5. Transfers and account consolidation Our Domain Solution Center is designed specifically to provide reliable and efficient domain registration and management tools for companies and law firms that register and manage large volumes of domain names. To arrange a complete demo of our Domain Solution Center, please e-mail us at custserv at markmonitor.com or call us at (800) 337-7520. To be removed from future e-mails from Markmonitor, please respond to custremove at markmonitor.com. From djones at markmonitor.com Tue Sep 4 07:59:02 2001 From: djones at markmonitor.com (Markmonitor) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 14:59:02 +0000 Subject: .info landrush - pre-register now Message-ID: <0GJ500L5LJD6J5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Subject: .info Landrush Markmonitor, the worldwide leader in Internet intellectual property protection, is now accepting pre-registrations for the .info landrush period (September 12 -19). To date, Markmonitor has successfully registered over 92% of .info names requested by its customers. For more information and to set up an account, visit Markmonitor's Domain Solution Center at www.markmonitor.com today. In addition to registering your .info domain names, Markmonitor's Domain Solution Center can accommodate all of your domain registration needs, including: 1. High volume registration, in all gTLDs and over 150 ccTLDs 2. Global Domain Name Management (DNS, contact information) 3. Reporting 4. Renewal Management 5. Transfers and account consolidation Our Domain Solution Center is designed specifically to provide reliable and efficient domain registration and management tools for companies and law firms that register and manage large volumes of domain names. To arrange a complete demo of our Domain Solution Center, please e-mail us at custserv at markmonitor.com or call us at (800) 337-7520. To be removed from future e-mails from Markmonitor, please respond to custremove at markmonitor.com. From gbroiles at well.com Tue Sep 4 15:00:34 2001 From: gbroiles at well.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 15:00:34 -0700 Subject: Official Anonymizing In-Reply-To: <200109042040.QAA12188@granger.mail.mindspring.net> References: <20010904143321.A2385@weathership.homeport.org> <200109041749.NAA26560@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20010831183757.03a22020@pop3.norton.antivirus> <20010904125751.A13920@cluebot.com> <200109041749.NAA26560@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010904135504.0370dec0@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 04:33 PM 9/4/2001 -0700, John Young wrote: >And I am not as sanguine about the wisdom of providing technology >to government on the same footing as the citizen. There is more >than a bit of marketing opportunism is this view -- and government >knows very well what power the purse has to seduce young firms >into the world of secrecy. > >So I say again, that despite it being economic foolhardiness, indeed >because it is that, there needs to be a code of practice for anonimyzer >developers to state their policy of helping governments snoop on >us without us knowing. Agnosticism in this matter is complicity >when such a stance cloaks government intrusiveness. > >Look, I'll accept that we will all succumb to the power of the market, >so limit my proposal for full disclosure to those over 30. After that >age one should know there is no way to be truly open-minded. I don't think the problem here is really the power of the market - it's the ease of copying digital media, and the difficulty of keeping a secret. I think a disclosure program like you discuss isn't an awful idea - and it might make sense for crypto companies to include, as part of their sales contracts with government agencies, explicit permission to disclose those purchases for public awareness and marketing purposes. But any such disclosure list is going to be incomplete, because the sellers themselves don't know who they're selling to, or who their customers are passing the goods along to. It's the same old crypto export control problem - but now we're thinking of the US government as the bad guys, instead of the government of Iraq - and all of the practical objections to the export control nonsense still make as much sense as they ever did. And the ease of circumventing the control regime still makes it a laughingstock, or just a marketing exercise. (See, for example, the PROMIS software package - licensed by Inslaw to DoJ, and from there distributed far and wide, depending on who you believe. A Google search on "promis inslaw casolaro" will provide a catalog of real or imagined government abuses of small software sellers.) I agree that we in the US have much more to fear from our government than from the government of Iraq - and perhaps the moral or strategic questions about arms control weigh even more heavily against giving the US government strong privacy or encryption or monitoring tools - but those moral questions are irrelevant given the speed and ease of distribution in the modern world. We can't control the spread of drugs, or guns, or money, or crypto, or surveillance tools - not as a government, and certainly not as individuals or small companies. Given those constraints on our abilities, publishers of crypto/privacy tools must assume that, when they make any significant distribution of their products, some of them will end up in the hands of government agencies, who will use them (if they're useful) and disassemble/analyze them to find exploitable weakness. That's not really different from what others - like hostile foreign governments, or motivated criminals, will do with them. Similarly, citizens must assume that, if tools are available to anyone, that they are available to governments, and to the least honest and least honorable and least humanitarian people within those governments, and plan their affairs accordingly. There's no other realistic path - we can agree that it would be nice if governments didn't perceive a need to mislead and deceive their own citizens, and if governments would follow their own laws - just as it would be nice if other humans would follow laws and act decently, too. But they won't, not all of them. So we've got to make our plans assuming that the worst people are going to get access, sooner or later, to the best tools, and they're going to lie to us about it along the way. And that's what we've got to work with - but we can have the good tools, too, if we choose them. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at well.com "We have found and closed the thing you watch us with." -- New Delhi street kids From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Tue Sep 4 12:03:07 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 15:03:07 -0400 Subject: Comped scribblers the bane of conferences Message-ID: > ---------- > From: Tim May[SMTP:tcmay at got.net] > Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 12:02 PM > To: cypherpunks at lne.com > Subject: Re: Comped scribblers the bane of conferences > > On Saturday, August 25, 2001, at 07:59 AM, Declan McCullagh wrote: > > > On Thu, Aug 23, 2001 at 04:14:04PM -0700, Tim May wrote: > >> Meanwhile, don't expect to see me at the next CFP conference! Plenty > >> of > >> comped scribblers, though. > > > > CFP is in SF next year, so you may want to stop by. > > > > As for "comped scribblers," I am one. But look at it from a > > journalist's perspective: We may attend two conferences a week, say at > > $1,500/per. Rough estimates, then, would be over $150,000 a year, more > > than most journalists make. > > > > Paying that much in conference fees is not feasible, and conference > > organizers generally understand this and let us in free (we may pay for > > meals) in exchange for publicity. > > > > First, $1500 per conference sounds way too high, even by today's > inflated standards. > You haven't gone to too many conferences lately, have you? Palmsource 2001: At door: $1395, early bird $995 (add $745 for tutorials). Comdex fall 2001: As high as $2895. if you get a 'flex pass'. Most attendees will probably be paying from $0 (exhibits only, online reg) to $1895 (2 conferences). RSA 2002: At-door full-conference registration is $1795, not including $495 for the tutorials. (that's the worst case - it's half that before Dec 4, and there are a number of lower-cost options). Peter From a3495 at cotse.com Tue Sep 4 12:11:27 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 15:11:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Official Anonymizing Message-ID: John wrote: >On ZKS selling anonymizing products that are publicly available >to governmental officials does raise an issue of whether officials >should, or should be able to, conceal their official identities when >working cyberspace in an official capacity. I think not, though >it might be as impossible to get officials to comply as with >terrorists so long as the technology is there. >Paul Sylverson, at NRL, took me to task recently for outing >officials, claiming that one of the primary purposes of onion >routing was to allow officials to conceal their actions in >cyberspace. I answered that it was my opinion that officials >had no right to conceal their identity when on the job, not >the military, not the spooks, indeed, they should be obliged >to reveal identity in cyberspace when at work, if not of the >person then of the agency. Nice thought, but I'll bet it wouldn't happen in a million years. And speaking generally on the subject of various people "concealing actions", could I just say that I think any company working in this sector would be well-advised to take good, hard second look at their internal security practices. "Insider threat mitigation" should be every bit as much of a concern to you as it is to the DoD. Maybe more so. Their unholy quartet of "maliciousness, disdain for security procedures, carelessness, and ignorance" applies to your insiders too. It wouldn't hurt anything to run a tighter ship, either: what are you doing to get to know who you're really working with? What are you doing to ensure you aren't trusting your trade secrets to shitheels who'll sell out crucial elements of your design to the first person who waves a few dollar bills under their nose? Not making any claims about who's doing the selling, who's doing the buying or why. But something seriously reeks in Denmark and as a community you really need to think about it a little harder. ~Faustine. From gbroiles at well.com Tue Sep 4 15:14:34 2001 From: gbroiles at well.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 15:14:34 -0700 Subject: Official Anonymizing In-Reply-To: <200109042040.QAA12188@granger.mail.mindspring.net> References: <20010904143321.A2385@weathership.homeport.org> <200109041749.NAA26560@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20010831183757.03a22020@pop3.norton.antivirus> <20010904125751.A13920@cluebot.com> <200109041749.NAA26560@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010904150235.03b7bec0@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 04:33 PM 9/4/2001 -0700, John Young wrote: >Look, I'll accept that we will all succumb to the power of the market, >so limit my proposal for full disclosure to those over 30. After that >age one should know there is no way to be truly open-minded. And, in the spirit of full disclosure, I'll mention that at C2Net we did sell our software to the government/intelligence agencies who wanted it - they paid the same prices as any other customers, signed the same sales contracts (we'd negotiate some on warranty terms for big purchases), and otherwise got what everyone else got - not more, not less. In the book "Peopleware", it's argued that software quality is important not because customers demand it (they don't), but because it makes developers happy to make something they're proud of, and happy developers are more productive and are retained longer. I thought then (96-98) and still think that it might be sensible for small crypto/privacy oriented-companies to refuse to sell to government bodies - not because it would realistically prevent the TLA's from gaining access or information, but because it would be a good marketing trick, especially back when the LEO/intel agencies were 100% behind Clipper and very restrictive export/escrow policies. In terms of customer and employee morale, it might be helpful to be "that company who tells the government to fuck off for moral reasons", which is something that ideological leftists and ideological libertarians can get excited about, and excited customers and employees are good for business. It also might be a sensible posture for a small, fast-moving high-volume company that doesn't want to fuck around with the overhead involved with government sales - they typically took 2x or 3x as long to close as private-sector sales, and had extra mandatory forms to fill out where they wanted to know about the race and gender of the business owner(s), and then paid us on 90 or 120 day or worse terms because what were we going to do, sue them? On the other hand, it also looks like a good opportunity for a captive government reseller subsidiary, which has a couple of really laid-back slow people on staff who don't mind filling out forms, and charge 2x the regular retail price (which is available only to cash/credit card customers) in exchange for waiting 120 days for payment. But we didn't have spare cycles to fuck around with that, though some companies do, and they seem to do pretty well with it. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at well.com "We have found and closed the thing you watch us with." -- New Delhi street kids From ravage at ssz.com Tue Sep 4 13:24:55 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 15:24:55 -0500 (CDT) Subject: NTsecAPI - Work in progress (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 03:02:04 +0200 From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton To: tng-technical at samba-tng.org, samba-technical at samba.org, ntsecapi-dev at lists.dcerpc.net Cc: samba-ntdom at samba.org, coderpunks at toad.com, cifs at discuss.microsoft.com Subject: NTsecAPI - Work in progress i'm starting an nt security api. it will basically be a generic wrapper around and merge of: cli_pipe_ntlmssp.c, srv_pipe_ntlmssp.c, cli_pipe_netsec.c, srv_pipe_netsec.c, and supporting code. [see http://www.samba-tng.org, cvs instructions, the above files are in source/rpc_client and source/rpc_server.] the idea is, however, to provide a client/server framework for general user authentication, signing and sealing. once this framework is written, it will be a heck of a lot simpler to add new user auth / dce/rpc crypto methods: i will investigate, for example, porting the kerberos5 auth used in dce 1.22 to the api, which will allow freedce to do kerberos5 authentication (something it can't do at the moment because noone's added it) the api is to be written as a stand-alone library into which it will need to even be passed memory allocation and debug handling functions: it will therefore have practical applications *outside* of samba, dce/rpc etc. etc., be threadsafe etc. etc. i'm currently munging the ntlmssp code as the first working example. if anyone is interested in helping, please subscribe to ntsecapi-dev on http://lists.dcerpc.net and we'll continue the discussions there. luke From gbroiles at well.com Tue Sep 4 15:28:53 2001 From: gbroiles at well.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 15:28:53 -0700 Subject: Official Anonymizing In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010904111319.03269ec0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010904152010.037f0a90@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 03:45 PM 9/4/2001 -0500, you wrote: >Real-To: "Aimee Farr" > >Are you talking about Gatti? Sounds like it. The opinion itself is at ; media reports at or . -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at well.com "We have found and closed the thing you watch us with." -- New Delhi street kids From ravage at ssz.com Tue Sep 4 13:31:06 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 15:31:06 -0500 Subject: The Register - MS eBook cracker keeps findings secret Message-ID: <3B953A0A.8D4229DF@ssz.com> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/55/21469.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From tcmay at got.net Tue Sep 4 15:43:34 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 15:43:34 -0700 Subject: Official Anonymizing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200109042246.f84MkTf00983@slack.lne.com> On Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 03:41 PM, measl at mfn.org wrote: > Hear Hear!! > > Yours, > > J.A. Terranson > sysadmin at mfn.org Why are you sending me-toos _twice_? (Yeah, I remember your explanation: you send things to two different nodes, with two different sender addresses, to make sure everyone gets your stuff. Rethink your strategy, lest many of us plonk you.) --Tim May From aimee.farr at pobox.com Tue Sep 4 13:45:52 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 15:45:52 -0500 Subject: Official Anonymizing In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010904111319.03269ec0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: Are you talking about Gatti? ~Aimee > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com]On > Behalf Of Steve Schear > Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 1:33 PM > To: cypherpunks at lne.com > Subject: Re: Official Anonymizing > > > At 01:42 PM 9/4/2001 -0700, John Young wrote: > >On ZKS selling anonymizing products that are publicly available > >to governmental officials does raise an issue of whether officials > >should, or should be able to, conceal their official identities when > >working cyberspace in an official capacity. I think not, though > >it might be as impossible to get officials to comply as with > >terrorists so long as the technology is there. > > I recall reading last week that an Oregon Supreme Court decision makes > mandatory that state LE operate only in the clear (no pseudo-anon > identities). Prosecutors are wringing their hands. > > steve From conceptin at rediffmail.com Tue Sep 4 13:46:56 2001 From: conceptin at rediffmail.com (conceptin at rediffmail.com) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 15:46:56 -0500 Subject: Promotional Products for Pharmaceutical Industries Message-ID: <200109041546225.SM01260@1g2k> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2851 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Tue Sep 4 15:50:36 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 15:50:36 -0700 Subject: Laws banning anonymity by government employees are foolish Message-ID: <200109042253.f84MrWf01067@slack.lne.com> The notion being touted by some, that government officials, employees, agents, etc. should not be allowed to be anonymous is a bad idea. If such a law were to be passed, this would be a "feel-good" measure which would not in fact be enforceable. Whether through cut-outs or contractors or just plain duplicity, the government would not stop using such methods. (This is a separate issue from whether the courts might rule that entrapment or provocation by undercover agents has limits. The issue of double agents, Red Squad infiltrations, etc. has been with us for more than a century. Courts have placed limits on entrapment, a separate issue from requiring True Names for all government employees.) I don't think having taxpayer money spent funding agents who go around infiltrating clubs and social groups and SIGs is a good idea, generally. But "there ought to be a law" is not likely to be effective. And it leads to the ostrich syndrome: if we pass a law to make a threat go away, and we don't see the threat anymore, it must be gone. -- Tim May From sales at lddtalk.com Tue Sep 4 15:55:42 2001 From: sales at lddtalk.com (LDD Talk) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 15:55:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Subject: I tried to call you, when can we talk? Message-ID: <419.437138.80679757sales@lddtalk.com> We were referred to you by one of our existing customers who felt you would use this service. We are Long Distance Direct . and we offer 50% or more of international long distance calling discounts over your existing telephone service. 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Sincerely, Staff at LDD Inc. sales at lddtalk.com 321.799.1010 U.S. From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Tue Sep 4 16:01:56 2001 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 16:01:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change Message-ID: <200109042301.XAA20853@hey.fuh-q.org> Not unsurprisingly, the judge has refused to permit a man sentenced to 10 years in prison for textual depictions of child sex in a private journal to withdraw his guilty plea and get a trial. As F. Lee Bailey once said, the major flaw in the American justice system is that appeals focus only on procedural errors, and ones guilt or innocence is never again an issue after the original trial, even if that trial reached the wrong result. Having concluded that all the i's were dotted and the t's crossed in the screwing of Mr. Dalton by the state of Ohio, justice proceeds merrily onward. ----- COLUMBUS, Ohio -- A man sentenced to prison for writing fantasies in his personal journal about torturing and molesting children cannot change his guilty plea, a judge ruled Tuesday. Franklin County Judge Nodine Miller said Brian Dalton did not demonstrate a "manifest injustice" had taken place. Dalton, 22, had asked to withdraw his guilty plea, saying it was not made knowingly or intelligently, and that he was expecting to be sentenced to treatment, not 10 years in prison. The case alarmed experts in First Amendment and obscenity law, who believe Dalton is the first person in the country successfully prosecuted for simply writing what was judged to be child pornography. "Definitely this is a matter of grave constitutional concerns," said attorney Benson Wolman, a former executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union's Ohio chapter. He said he will ask the court to set aside Dalton's conviction, or file a delayed appeal. ... -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Tue Sep 4 16:05:28 2001 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 16:05:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Moral Crypto isn't wuss-ninnie. In-Reply-To: from "Aimee Farr" at Sep 04, 2001 07:26:57 PM Message-ID: <200109042305.XAA20882@hey.fuh-q.org> Aimee writes: > I realize Tim's position, and I respect his right to express his political > opinions and ideas, even though I don't agree with them, and think he is a > self-identifying flamboyant jackass. I understand that many of you have the > same opinions, and likewise.... Guess not all Lying Feminist Cunts troll Sex Abuse exclusively. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From jya at pipeline.com Tue Sep 4 16:33:05 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 16:33:05 -0700 Subject: Official Anonymizing In-Reply-To: <20010904143321.A2385@weathership.homeport.org> References: <200109041749.NAA26560@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20010831183757.03a22020@pop3.norton.antivirus> <20010904125751.A13920@cluebot.com> <200109041749.NAA26560@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <200109042040.QAA12188@granger.mail.mindspring.net> I try to abide the principle that if one gets anonymized all should. However, there is a disparity in who gets to leverage that anonymity -- from the citizen to the empowered official. We have now more privilege of conealment on the official side, and that needs redress, constant redress a rebel might yell. Not much of my proposal is radical: there is a long tradition for officials to own up to what they do in their official roles. The uniformed police, the uniformed military services. That is far less done in the case of the spooks and, increasingly lately, law enforcement and the military as the latter adopt the practices and more importantly the technology of spooks -- and the spooks' lack of public accountability (those oversight committees are a fraud). The culture of secrecy is vastly overweighted in favor of government, and much of that derives from hoary claims of national security. Undercover and covert operations have become far more pervasive in the US government and military than ever, and constitute a privileged elite in mil/gov, and often law enforcement, moving from the federal agencies into state and locals -- and contractors and suppliers for all these. And all are bound by a complicitous and luxurious veil of secrecy. It is fairly common for goodhearts to question government but not when national security, and more recently, domestic security, is bruited. But that is due to a well-crafted educational campaign to raise national security to a theological level, and its rational is itself cloaked in secrecy. A similar theologizing is underway, methinks despite Declan's unreflective demurral, in the campaign for combatting domestic terrorism, the Homeland Defense demonolgy. Having learned much here about the futility of trying to determine who gets privacy technology and who does not, it remains true that for most of us access to this technology is very recent and we know not what lies outside our knowledge. I am not as sanguine about government as I was before being semi-educated by this list about what technology is in covert use. And I am not as sanguine about the wisdom of providing technology to government on the same footing as the citizen. There is more than a bit of marketing opportunism is this view -- and government knows very well what power the purse has to seduce young firms into the world of secrecy. So I say again, that despite it being economic foolhardiness, indeed because it is that, there needs to be a code of practice for anonimyzer developers to state their policy of helping governments snoop on us without us knowing. Agnosticism in this matter is complicity when such a stance cloaks government intrusiveness. Look, I'll accept that we will all succumb to the power of the market, so limit my proposal for full disclosure to those over 30. After that age one should know there is no way to be truly open-minded. From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Tue Sep 4 16:44:44 2001 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 16:44:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Moral Crypto isn't wuss-ninnie. In-Reply-To: from "Aimee Farr" at Sep 04, 2001 11:45:34 PM Message-ID: <200109042344.XAA20989@hey.fuh-q.org> Aimee writes: >> Guess not all Lying Feminist Cunts troll Sex Abuse exclusively. > I am not a Feminist. So I scored two out of three? :) -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From angelina at globalexpresssubmit.com Tue Sep 4 16:52:26 2001 From: angelina at globalexpresssubmit.com (angelina at globalexpresssubmit.com) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 16:52:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Congratulations. You've got a web site! - Now, can anyone find it? Message-ID: <200109042352.QAA23556@svs46.virtualis.com> Congratulations. You've got a web site! - Now, can anyone find it? VERICA quickly submits your site to over 13,500 search engines, media contacts (MSNBC, CNN, USA Today) and classified ads. It is easy, affordable and registering takes just 2 minutes. 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To report abuse please send a email to abuse at globalexpresssubmit.com From tcmay at got.net Tue Sep 4 17:17:34 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 17:17:34 -0700 Subject: Melon traffickers --> Soul traffickers In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010904191520.02172770@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <200109050020.f850KUf01686@slack.lne.com> On Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 04:33 PM, Declan McCullagh wrote: > At 12:28 PM 9/4/01 -0700, Tim May wrote: >> Either one runs seriously afoul of the First Amendment. >> >> Remailers are publishers. Publishers cannot be "licensed," nor can they >> simply be closed down. > > Let me play Devil's Advocate a bit and try to challenge this > conventional cypherpunk wisdom. > > Unlike remailers, publishers exercise editorial discretion over what > they print or distribute or broadcast. They do this by considering the > content of the communication and judge, among other things, whether it > is timely, newsworthy, informative, accurate, complete, relevant, > interesting -- in other words, whether the content will succeed in the > marketplace or not. > > A remailer does none of those things. Instead of a person judging > articles, books, or multimedia clips as worthy of being published, a > remailer simply forwards. To that end, it is far more like a mechanical > device: a conveyor belt that moves an item from one place to another, > perhaps taking off a layer of packaging along the way. And let me play Devil's Advocate to this DA position: Not to sound overly Choatian, but there is nothing in the First Amendment which says anything about government getting to decide when "enough" editorial processing has occurred so that First Amendment protections kick in. A publisher who published a publication consisting of _all submissions_ would still be protected, even if he exercised _zero_ editorial discretion. In fact, such things exist: they are called "vanity presses." They publish for a fee, no differently than a paid remailer publishes for a fee. Is a vanity press not protected by the First Amendment? There is no requirement in the First that a press prove that it altered or selected some threshold percentage of bits before First Amendment protections exist. In fact, the Bill of Rights is not about rights granted by government at all, it's about limits on what government may do. And, as I will cover below, any kind of "know your customer" rules run into other problems. (By they way, publishers of anonymous letters are not required to "know their customers." Ditto for collectors of anonymous suggestions, radio talk show hosts accepting calls from anonymous dialers, etc. These publishers and radio talk show hosts do _not_ have to "justify" their failure to collect taceability information, nor do they have to meet any threshold test for how much editorial control they exercised. The First simply does not give government the authority to restrict a publisher this way.) > Obviously I'm not trying to argue that Congress *should* enact such a > law -- I think they should stay the hell away from this area -- but > what if they do? How about if they try, as someone else suggested, to > compel ISPs or network providers to be the _de facto_ cops? > > I'm not trying to scare off cypherpunk-types from coding or discussing > these things. If anything, I'd argue that the next few years are the > time to deploy mixes more widely, and weave them into popular products, > so restrictions would meet with not just theoretical privacy-themed > opposition, but lots of peeved users as well. I'm also not saying, to > repeat my last message, that OECD or G8-wide legal restrictions would > put remailers out of business, but I suspect such rules would make it > much less likely they'd be mainstream. Something I wrote about a very long time ago, before Cypherpunks even, was the "trick" (Happy Fun Court will not be amused) of using a "religious confessional" as a cover for remailers. Or of using an "anonymous tip line" as a cover. (This was discussed much in the first few years of remailer operation.) If the government demands that remailer shut down, or somehow obtain meatspace identities, confessionals and anonymous pschiatric/sex hotlines will presumably also be shut down. This was the motivation for much of the Kremvax early remailing service, which Julf later took over the code for. Sexual abuse, incest, rape, shame, etc., drove these early systems. It may be time to dust off these services as "covers." Anyone now running a remailer could consider explicity announcing their religious or psychiatric motivations. Melon traffickers --> Soul traffickers. Happy Fun Court will not be amused that such "tricks" are being used to head off an outlawing of anonymity tools. Fuck 'em. --Tim May From gbroiles at well.com Tue Sep 4 17:19:57 2001 From: gbroiles at well.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 17:19:57 -0700 Subject: Official Anonymizing In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010904193422.02175ec0@mail.well.com> References: <200109042040.QAA12188@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <20010904143321.A2385@weathership.homeport.org> <200109041749.NAA26560@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20010831183757.03a22020@pop3.norton.antivirus> <20010904125751.A13920@cluebot.com> <200109041749.NAA26560@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010904171424.03746e60@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 07:53 PM 9/4/2001 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: >[...] >2. Since the people enforcing this hypothetical law are the same people >with the greatest incentives to violate it, what makes a disinterested >observer believe that it will be effective? If we're not interested in >effectiveness, why don't we just pass a law saying "no more police >brutality" or "no cop shall violate someone's civil liberties?" I think this goes a little too far (though I'm also pretty skeptical about the underlying proposal). True, it's very unlikely that cops will arrest themselves for violating a mandatory disclosure law - expecting any group to reliably self-police is unrealistic. It would not be practically, impossible, to enforce such a provision the same way that parts of the Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth amendments are - by making evidence which has been gathered illegally unavailable in court. That sanction isn't intended to be punitive - it just removes (some of) the motivation to engage in the forbidden activity. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at well.com "We have found and closed the thing you watch us with." -- New Delhi street kids From bounce-stocknight-163101 at lyris.stocknight.com Tue Sep 4 17:32:44 2001 From: bounce-stocknight-163101 at lyris.stocknight.com (Stocknight ListServer) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 17:32:44 -0700 Subject: StockUpTicks Features Ozolutions OZLU Message-ID: [Stockupticks.com] [Image] [Image] Welcome to Stockupticks.com Newsletter Issue 12 - September 4, 2001 [Image] [Image][Image] [Image] e-Blast [Image] *** Breaking News [Image] Breaking News *** Stockupticks endeavors to bring you information about under-followed companies that may be of particular interest to investors in "discovery" and emerging growth stocks. [logo] (OTC BB: OZLU) is the exclusive distributor for Hankin Ozone products and markets water purification systems internationally in Mexico, the Caribbean, and Canada. Ozone is electronically charged oxygen. When ozone is injected into a water stream and dissolves and removes the impurities in water. Ozone has a very short life-span and after it is injected into the water, it returns to be oxygen within a few minutes. With the use of ozone, water can be treated to a degree of purity unachievable by any other means. Ozone purification is a proven method that is very cost efficient. Ozolutions announced on August 14, that it had signed a distribution agreement with ELCE Intl. for rights to distribute the ELCE Water Activator in South America and in the Caribbean. The activator removes scale build-up inside water pipes preventing deposits from forming, enhancing water purification systems. Ozolutions has gathered the critical elements to distribute and provide the best water purification methodology to governments, corporations, and individual consumers around the world who are in need of pure water at a cost effective price. --------------------------------------------- We believe the following news release will be of significant interest to investors. [Ozolutions Inc. logo] Providing The Best Water Systems to a Thirsty World [Image] Ozolutions Inc. (OTC BB: OZLU) [Image] Tuesday September 4, 6:35 pm Eastern Time Press Release SOURCE: Ozolutions Inc. Ozolutions Announces an Agreement in Principle to Provide Hankin Water Purification System to Homeowners Ontario Distributor Will Offer Purification System To Homebuilders And Homebuyers TORONTO--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Sept. 4, 2001-- Ozolutions Inc. (OTCBB:OZLU - news), an international distributor of water purification systems, announced today that it had entered into an agreement in principle with one of Canada's largest providers of home comfort systems to offer the the option of having the Hankin Ozone EntrOzone water purification system installed both in existing and new homes across Ontario. Based on initial test market results, Ozolutions will develop a marketing strategy and technical support program that will benefit all home builders that offer their new residential customers water purification as part of a home utilities package that is generally offered in home developments. There is increased public awareness about the quality of water and the Hankin EntrOzone system is a secure, safe, reliable, and affordable product that delivers purified water. Hankin has been in business over 65 years and has an ozone-based treatment of water that far surpasses the normal chlorine and filter techniques. The EntrOzone is a unique combination of technologies including ozone (electrically charged water molecules), Ultra-Violet light, and activated carbon filters that provide maximum protection against bacteria, viruses, metal contaminants and harmful chemicals including pesticides that may infiltrate sources of drinking water. Ozolutions will also offer homebuilders and homeowners complete servicing and financing for EntrOzone buyers. The company estimates the sale of 2400 EntrOzone units through its preferred home services distribution channel and the additional sale of 600 units through company direct and dealer sales. EntrOzone has a suggested retail price of $4000 (USD) and, based on current sales estimates, Ozolutions initial projections indicate potential gross revenues of approximately $8,000,000 (USD) over the next 12 months. Max Weissengruber, President of Ozolutions said, "The opportunity for our company to deliver the Hankin technology to one of Canada's largest providers of home comfort appliances is exciting. Ozolutions and the home product supplier are exploring the strategic implementation of the agreement and we are confident that homebuilders and homeowners will be delighted with the product, service, and cost effectiveness of having a reliable supply of purified water.'' Safe Harbour Statement under the Private Securities Reform Act of 1995 Except for the historical information contained herein, the matters discussed in this press release are forward-looking statements that involve risks and uncertainties including, but not limited to economic, competitive, governmental and technological factors affecting the Company's operations, markets, products and prices and other factors discussed in the Company's various filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission. The above mentioned agreement is contingent upon approval by the Board of Directors of both companies, mutual ratification of the agreement in full, and various regulatory and governmental approvals. Contact: Ozolutions Inc. Max Weissengruber, 416/490-0254 Fax: 416/495-8625 [Image]The MarketPlace [Image] The MarketPlace for Ozone treated water is rapidly growing. There are presently more than 250 ozone treatment plants under design or construction in the United States. As water treatment plants respond to US Environmental Protection Agency regulations, more than 10,000 smaller drinking water treatment facilities will be looking to add ozone oxidation processes to their drinking water. Ozone treated water is also important to: * Tourism * Business Consumers * Waste Water Treatment * Fish Hatcheries * Municipalities * Urban & Rural Home builders The proximity of the Mexican market and the Caribbean market provides an extremely cost-effective platform for sales, shipment, and service. As part of their strategic marketing plan, Ozolutions is developing a dealer network of independent agents and contractors capable of selling, installing systems and servicing customers. [Image] Profiles [Image] [logo] is the exclusive distributor for Hankin Ozone products and markets water purification systems internationally in Mexico, the Caribbean Zone, and Canada. Ozone is electronically charged oxygen. When ozone is injected into a water stream and dissolves, it removes the impurities in water. Ozone has a very short life-span and after it is injected into the water, it returns to be oxygen within a few minutes. With the use of ozone, water can be treated to a degree of purity unachievable by any other means. Ozone purification is a proven method that is very cost efficient. [Hank Ppl]Hankin Ozone(CDNX - HAI) manufactures safe, secure, rugged, and reliable water purification systems. The Hankin multi-barrier treatment of water eliminates contaminants, viruses, e-boli, pesticides, 99.9992% of pathogens, and metals. The Hankin 'Entrozone' disinfects water better than undependable filters or limited chlorine. The Entrozone can work with water from any source, a well, a lake, or a municipal water pipeline. Hankin Ozone Systems Limited, has been a publicly traded Canadian company in business since 1972. [Image] Company Contact [Image] Ozolutions Inc. Max Weissengruber, President [Entrozone Product] Tel: 416.490.0254 Fax: 416.495.8625 max at ozolutions.com 30 Denver Cres., Suite 200 Hankin Patented Ozotek (tm) ozone generator Toronto, Ontario, Canada M2J 1G8 [Image] Links [Image] For more information, please visit the following sites: http://www.ozolutions.com http://www.hankinozone.com http://www.epa.gov/OW/ (Office of Water) http://wwwga.usgs.gov/edu/ (U.S. Geological Survey) [Image] Safe Harbor and Disclaimer [Image] Safe Harbor Statement Statements regarding financial matters in above referenced press release other than historical facts are "forward-looking statements'' within the meaning of Section 27A of the Securities Act of 1933, Section 21E of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934, and as that term is defined in the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. The Company intends that such statements about the Company's future expectations, including future revenues and earnings, anticipated events and all other forward-looking statements, be subject to the safe harbors created thereby. Since these statements (future operational results and sales) involve risks and uncertainties and are subject to change at any time, the Company's actual results may differ materially from expected results. Disclaimer Stockupticks.com is owned by Market Pathways Financial Relations Incorporated (MP). The information contained herein is based on a news release or other report written and disseminated by the subject company. Any information, opinions or analysis regarding the subject company to which Stockupticks.com has provided a link or other detail are provided by sources believed to be reliable but no representation, expressed or implied, is made as to its accuracy, completeness or correctness. This report is for information purposes only and should not be used as the basis for any investment decision. For producing and or disseminating this Newsletter, MP has been granted 17,000 shares of Ozolutions by Market Information Communication, Inc. This compensation constitutes a conflict of interest as to our ability to remain objective in our communication regarding the subject company. Write or call MP for detailed disclosure as required by Rule 17b of the Securities Act of 1933/1934. MP and Stockupticks.com and its owners, agents and employees are not investment advisors and this report is not investment advice. This information is neither a solicitation to buy nor an offer to sell securities. MP and Stockupticks.com and/or its affiliates, associates and employees from time to time may have either a long or short position in securities mentioned. Information contained herein may not be reproduced in whole or in part without the express written consent of Market Pathways Financial Relations Incorporated (Copyright 2001.) [Image][Image] [Image] [Image] © Stockupticks 2001, All rights reserved [Image] --- You are currently subscribed to stocknight as: cypherpunks at algebra.com To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-stocknight-163101P at lyris.stocknight.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 19923 bytes Desc: not available URL: From measl at mfn.org Tue Sep 4 15:41:16 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 17:41:16 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Official Anonymizing In-Reply-To: <20010904143321.A2385@weathership.homeport.org> Message-ID: Hear Hear!! Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Adam Shostack wrote: > Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 14:33:21 -0400 > From: Adam Shostack > Reply-To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com > To: John Young > Cc: cypherpunks at lne.com > Subject: CDR: Re: Official Anonymizing > > On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 01:42:28PM -0700, John Young wrote: > | I propose that all anonymizers adopt a code of practice that > | any sale to officials of anonymizers or their use be disclosed > | to the public (I suggested this to ZKS early on when first > | meetings with the feds to explain the technology were being > | sometimes disclosed). That seems to be a reasonable response > | to officially-secret prowling and investigating cyberspace. > > Speaking for myself, I don't really want to know my customers any more > than I absolutely must. If y'all are so willing to identify and treat > differently one class of customers (spooks), I believe that you have > no moral leg to stand on when a different class of customers (say, > hispanics) are treated differently. > > If there's no morality bit in encryption, then there's no morality > bit, and the fifth horsey of government can be as anonymous as the > rest of us. > > Adam > > -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From juicy at melontraffickers.com Tue Sep 4 17:47:33 2001 From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 17:47:33 -0700 Subject: Moral Crypto Message-ID: At 12:38 PM 9/4/2001 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: >In the next five years or so, I would not be suprised to see a call >for federal licensing of remailers. Some of the more mainstream >remailer operators might even go along with it, eventually, calling >for a "voluntary-mandatory" code of conduct and industry self- >regulation. What makes you think remailers are such a threat that the federal government would attempt to license them? How exactly will they help criminals and terrorists in the time frame of the next five years? They're not being used for much today, other than annoying people. It doesn't seem like criminals use them. What's the killer app (so to speak)? From tcmay at got.net Tue Sep 4 18:04:20 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 18:04:20 -0700 Subject: Moral Crypto isn't wuss-ninnie. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200109050107.f8517Gf02046@slack.lne.com> On Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 05:26 PM, Aimee Farr wrote: > "A potential balance between national security and science may lie in an > agreement to include in the peer review process (prior to the start of > research and prior to the publication) the question of potential harm > to the > nation.... I believe it is necessary before significant harm does occur > which could well prompt the federal government to overreact." -- Inman, > '82. > > --- > It is not wuss-ninnie to spark debate, or to examine characterizations > and > motives. Many say, "technology is neutral." It's not. Technology is > CONTEXTUAL. Somebody is going to use it for something, and that's > usually > somebody and something in particular. > > Most of you would agree that surveillance researchers failed to > consider and > address the moral and societal implications of surveillance > technologies. > That, too many said, was somebody else's problem. Now, it's *our* > problem. > Had they looked into motivations and societal factors, we would have had > more lead time to deal with improper surveillance and secondary use > issues. > We are in this position today because they were "wuss-ninnies." Nonsense. None of the current "moral and societal implications of surveillance technologies" are either new or unexplored. From Bentham to Huxley to Orwell to Donner ("The Age of Surveillance," 1980) to Brin ("The Transparent Society," c. 1996), the implications have been explored in gory detail. The notion that these implications would be avoided or handled by submitting all research proposals to Inman's oversight board is naive in the extreme. Inman's board, had the Constitution even allowed such "oversight" of private actor activities, would have killed RSA in the womb, would have blocked PGP, and would have put the kibosh on remailers....but would have endorsed surveillance cams in football stadiums. > > If the benefits outweigh the costs, then fine -- but show me that you > thought about it, and considered what other people might have to say, > even > if you might not agree with them (or me). I'm glad you have political > ideas > and theories of how it's going to all work out....but it often doesn't > work > out the way you think, or want it to. I've been reading and thinking about these issues since I was a kid. All of the above authors I've read, plus a whole shelf full (Declan and Lucky can attest to this) of other such books. Laqueur. Kwitny, Richelson, Bamford, Wise, Kahn, and dozens of other works touching on surveillance, secrecy, terror states, espionage, and on and on. But we don't have to justify to _you_ that we have read "academic works" or thought about the issues to then press for there being no Inman-style reviews of research, no Lincoln-style suspensions of habeas corpus, not statist-style restrictions on liberty in the name of fighting our "endless enemies." > I realize Tim's position, and I respect his right to express his > political > opinions and ideas, even though I don't agree with them, and think he > is a > self-identifying flamboyant jackass. I understand that many of you have > the > same opinions, and likewise.... Agent Farr, you need a new gig. --Tim May From lisat at etransmail2.com Tue Sep 4 18:08:40 2001 From: lisat at etransmail2.com (Lisa Thornton) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 18:08:40 -0700 Subject: VersaCheck Prestige & Premium Checks! Message-ID: <200109052005.f85K5ST11638@ak47.algebra.com> You are subscribed as: cypherpunks at algebra.com Good Afternoon! 1. New: highly attractive and secure Prestige & Premium check styles from G7 http://www.g7ps.com 2. Get your Executive Membership today and save on all your purchases of toner supplies, software and blank check paper! Click on the link below and then on the "Become a Member and Save" banner: http://www.g7ps.com 3. FREE Productivity Software in full retail packaging: ******************** a) eXpressForms "forms publisher" ($129.99 value) b) Fortune "relationship manager" ($149.99 value) c) DataScan "business card & contact list scanner" ($149.99 value) d) TransForm Suite "automatic form creation and text OCR" ($59.99 value) Pick up your FREE products at the web site specified below. Click on the following link for details and to order (or call the 800 number below) http://www.g7ps.com ********************* Please do not hesitate to call 800-303-2620 for any questions you may have. Thank you very much. Regards, Lisa Thornton Productivity Services Director G7 Productivity Systems, Inc. lisat at etransmail2.com 800-303-2620 To change your communication preference please click on: http://www.globalzon2k.com/scripts/mf_de.asp?e=cypherpunks at algebra.com or simply reply to this Email with UNSUBSCRIBE in the subject line. From ravage at ssz.com Tue Sep 4 16:50:00 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 18:50:00 -0500 Subject: Slashdot | Software Sorts Electronic Evidence Message-ID: <3B9568A8.11AD6FB@ssz.com> http://slashdot.org/articles/01/09/04/1754229.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ladispolano at libero.it Tue Sep 4 10:06:03 2001 From: ladispolano at libero.it (marco) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 19:06:03 +0200 Subject: Prova Message-ID: <4.3.0.20010904190555.00acf600@popmail.libero.it> :: Request-Remailing-To: ladispolano at libero.it Questa è solo una prova... ------------------------------------------------------------ Free Web Email & Filter Enhancements. http://www.freewebemail.com/filtertools/ ------------------------------------------------------------ From juicy at melontraffickers.com Tue Sep 4 19:26:15 2001 From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 19:26:15 -0700 Subject: Moral Crypto Message-ID: <19966c888a47446b2fd297f8bdab15ac@melontraffickers.com> declan at well.com writes: > Anonymity allows people to evade laws. Governments don't like that. > Read the archives. It would be nice to see at least one example of something nasty that could be done with an anonymous remailer in the next few years where you couldn't get the same effect at the corner phone booth or dropping a letter in a public mailbox. So far there have been no prohibitions on sending information anonymously via those mechanisms. Why would email be singled out? From aimee.farr at pobox.com Tue Sep 4 17:26:57 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 19:26:57 -0500 Subject: Moral Crypto isn't wuss-ninnie. In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010904112236.03706810@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: "A potential balance between national security and science may lie in an agreement to include in the peer review process (prior to the start of research and prior to the publication) the question of potential harm to the nation.... I believe it is necessary before significant harm does occur which could well prompt the federal government to overreact." -- Inman, '82. --- It is not wuss-ninnie to spark debate, or to examine characterizations and motives. Many say, "technology is neutral." It's not. Technology is CONTEXTUAL. Somebody is going to use it for something, and that's usually somebody and something in particular. Most of you would agree that surveillance researchers failed to consider and address the moral and societal implications of surveillance technologies. That, too many said, was somebody else's problem. Now, it's *our* problem. Had they looked into motivations and societal factors, we would have had more lead time to deal with improper surveillance and secondary use issues. We are in this position today because they were "wuss-ninnies." If the benefits outweigh the costs, then fine -- but show me that you thought about it, and considered what other people might have to say, even if you might not agree with them (or me). I'm glad you have political ideas and theories of how it's going to all work out....but it often doesn't work out the way you think, or want it to. In my opinion, to characterize a technology as having aims detrimental to national security interests is both irresponsible and foolish. Words and events shape public policy -- why shape it against you? I realize Tim's position, and I respect his right to express his political opinions and ideas, even though I don't agree with them, and think he is a self-identifying flamboyant jackass. I understand that many of you have the same opinions, and likewise.... ~Aimee From declan at well.com Tue Sep 4 16:33:27 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 19:33:27 -0400 Subject: Moral Crypto In-Reply-To: <200109041931.f84JVSf32298@slack.lne.com> References: <20010904102133.A30958@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010904191520.02172770@mail.well.com> At 12:28 PM 9/4/01 -0700, Tim May wrote: >Either one runs seriously afoul of the First Amendment. > >Remailers are publishers. Publishers cannot be "licensed," nor can they >simply be closed down. Let me play Devil's Advocate a bit and try to challenge this conventional cypherpunk wisdom. Unlike remailers, publishers exercise editorial discretion over what they print or distribute or broadcast. They do this by considering the content of the communication and judge, among other things, whether it is timely, newsworthy, informative, accurate, complete, relevant, interesting -- in other words, whether the content will succeed in the marketplace or not. A remailer does none of those things. Instead of a person judging articles, books, or multimedia clips as worthy of being published, a remailer simply forwards. To that end, it is far more like a mechanical device: a conveyor belt that moves an item from one place to another, perhaps taking off a layer of packaging along the way. Another analogy (though polluted because of the U.S. Mail regs) might be like a Mailboxes Etc.-type service that opens an envelope and forwards the extracted contents to you at another address. Even if that service *only* used FedEx and UPS (to avoid at least in part the postal regs), what court would strike down regulations enacted by legislatures or Congress? Seems to me the Supreme Court (wrongly) would say the First Amendment interests are limited, and it's a just exercise of the Commerce Clause. Much would depend on the details, I'd imagine, of such a hypothetical law. Is it a flat ban, or (at first) brief identity-escrow periods? Obviously I'm not trying to argue that Congress *should* enact such a law -- I think they should stay the hell away from this area -- but what if they do? How about if they try, as someone else suggested, to compel ISPs or network providers to be the _de facto_ cops? I'm not trying to scare off cypherpunk-types from coding or discussing these things. If anything, I'd argue that the next few years are the time to deploy mixes more widely, and weave them into popular products, so restrictions would meet with not just theoretical privacy-themed opposition, but lots of peeved users as well. I'm also not saying, to repeat my last message, that OECD or G8-wide legal restrictions would put remailers out of business, but I suspect such rules would make it much less likely they'd be mainstream. -Declan From declan at well.com Tue Sep 4 16:53:12 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 19:53:12 -0400 Subject: Official Anonymizing In-Reply-To: <200109042040.QAA12188@granger.mail.mindspring.net> References: <20010904143321.A2385@weathership.homeport.org> <200109041749.NAA26560@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20010831183757.03a22020@pop3.norton.antivirus> <20010904125751.A13920@cluebot.com> <200109041749.NAA26560@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010904193422.02175ec0@mail.well.com> Let me try to restate John's proposal, which has some very attractive qualities. There are a few questions, it seems to me: 1. Should we require by law that government employees never act under cover of anonymity? (In practice, what does that mean? Does that mean they can't lie about their truename, or does it mean that they have to affirmatively volunteer their employment status?) 2. Since the people enforcing this hypothetical law are the same people with the greatest incentives to violate it, what makes a disinterested observer believe that it will be effective? If we're not interested in effectiveness, why don't we just pass a law saying "no more police brutality" or "no cop shall violate someone's civil liberties?" 3. Since the people regulated by this hypothetical law who would object to it have innumerable allies in the legislatures of this fair nation, what makes a disinterested observer believe that this proposal could ever be anything more than a thought experiment? 4. Should privacy-providing companies pledge to disclose the identities of their .gov purchasers? Do we think that .govs will follow this rule, or use cutouts? Will it be effective when the tools can be freely downloaded or bought at CompUSA? Me, I tend to think that federal agents shouldn't be infiltrating U.S. political parties, that the extent of undercover police work could be profitably scaled back quite a bit, that the IRS has few if any reasons to send its agents undercover, and that intelligence agencies have no business running operations domestically. Contrary to what John says, I'm happy to look critically at "homeland defense plans" -- what I've said is simply that this HD campaign has not yet eroded our civil libertes to the point where we have none. Be concerned, but not terrified. I think John has a valid point when he says that we should look askance at anonymity firms that help government spy on us. Companies would be well-advised to make their practices (we sell to Feds, we refuse to sell to Feds) public. But the market being what it is, the tools so well-discussed in so many circles, and the switch from .mil or .gov to .org or .com so easy, that I suspect such promises might give us only a false sense of security. -Declan At 04:33 PM 9/4/01 -0700, John Young wrote: >I try to abide the principle that if one gets anonymized >all should. However, there is a disparity in who gets >to leverage that anonymity -- from the citizen to the >empowered official. > >We have now more privilege of conealment on the official >side, and that needs redress, constant redress a rebel >might yell. > >Not much of my proposal is radical: there is a long tradition >for officials to own up to what they do in their official >roles. The uniformed police, the uniformed military >services. That is far less done in the case of the spooks >and, increasingly lately, law enforcement and the military >as the latter adopt the practices and more importantly >the technology of spooks -- and the spooks' lack of >public accountability (those oversight committees are >a fraud). > >The culture of secrecy is vastly overweighted in favor of >government, and much of that derives from hoary claims >of national security. Undercover and covert operations >have become far more pervasive in the US government >and military than ever, and constitute a privileged elite in >mil/gov, and often law enforcement, moving from the >federal agencies into state and locals -- and contractors >and suppliers for all these. And all are bound by a >complicitous and luxurious veil of secrecy. > >It is fairly common for goodhearts to question government >but not when national security, and more recently, domestic >security, is bruited. But that is due to a well-crafted educational >campaign to raise national security to a theological level, and >its rational is itself cloaked in secrecy. A similar theologizing >is underway, methinks despite Declan's unreflective demurral, >in the campaign for combatting domestic terrorism, the >Homeland Defense demonolgy. > >Having learned much here about the futility of trying to determine >who gets privacy technology and who does not, it remains true >that for most of us access to this technology is very recent and we >know not what lies outside our knowledge. > >I am not as sanguine about government as I was before being >semi-educated by this list about what technology is in covert use. > >And I am not as sanguine about the wisdom of providing technology >to government on the same footing as the citizen. There is more >than a bit of marketing opportunism is this view -- and government >knows very well what power the purse has to seduce young firms >into the world of secrecy. > >So I say again, that despite it being economic foolhardiness, indeed >because it is that, there needs to be a code of practice for anonimyzer >developers to state their policy of helping governments snoop on >us without us knowing. Agnosticism in this matter is complicity >when such a stance cloaks government intrusiveness. > >Look, I'll accept that we will all succumb to the power of the market, >so limit my proposal for full disclosure to those over 30. After that >age one should know there is no way to be truly open-minded. From tcmay at got.net Tue Sep 4 20:05:59 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 20:05:59 -0700 Subject: Moral Crypto In-Reply-To: <19966c888a47446b2fd297f8bdab15ac@melontraffickers.com> Message-ID: <200109050308.f8538uf02602@slack.lne.com> On Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 07:26 PM, A. Melon wrote: > declan at well.com writes: >> Anonymity allows people to evade laws. Governments don't like that. >> Read the archives. > > It would be nice to see at least one example of something nasty that > could be done with an anonymous remailer in the next few years where > you couldn't get the same effect at the corner phone booth or dropping a > letter in a public mailbox. Are you dense, or just ignorant? Consider the broad class of two-way communications, whether for information buying and selling, extortion, espionage, arranging contract killings, etc. Are these sufficiently "nasty" for you? Now consider that both the "corner phone booth" and "dropping a letter in a public mailbox" are untraceable only in _one_ direction. Two-way communication is not untraceable. If you don't see this, despite years and years of this point being explained on this list and in books like those by Ludlow, Levy, Kelly, and others, there is no hope for you. Agent Farr, this feeble attempt to entrap us into giving examples of "nasty" applications is puerile. It was all laid out a decade ago. --Tim May From declan at well.com Tue Sep 4 17:11:26 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 20:11:26 -0400 Subject: ...considered boring In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20010905072724.009da890@pop.useoz.com>; from mattd@useoz.com on Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 07:36:20AM +1000 References: <5.0.0.25.0.20010905072724.009da890@pop.useoz.com> Message-ID: <20010904201126.A23931@cluebot.com> On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 07:36:20AM +1000, mattd wrote: > Cant you be obsessed with JB and Cryptoanarchy/freenet? Like if some > outlaws dont unite and fight(using AP)with some indians,we'll all be forced > down the trail of tears to the freenet reservation. Fuck that. BTW for those of you who aren't on Politech, here's some other stuff that mattd has written (and a link to an article about the Ohio cops investigating him): http://www.politechbot.com/cgi-bin/politech.cgi?name=proffr -Declan From declan at well.com Tue Sep 4 17:15:17 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 20:15:17 -0400 Subject: PRI event 9/5 in DC: A "free choice approach" to privacy Message-ID: <20010904201517.B23931@cluebot.com> This report takes a libertarian, almost cypherpunkish, approach to privacy, and highlights some cypherpunk-developed tools as an alternative to federal legislation. -Declan ----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh ----- From jya at pipeline.com Tue Sep 4 20:47:14 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 20:47:14 -0700 Subject: Official Anonymizing In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010904193422.02175ec0@mail.well.com> References: <200109042040.QAA12188@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <20010904143321.A2385@weathership.homeport.org> <200109041749.NAA26560@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20010831183757.03a22020@pop3.norton.antivirus> <20010904125751.A13920@cluebot.com> <200109041749.NAA26560@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <200109050054.UAA15669@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Sorry, I'm not proposing a law, certainly not on this list. Rather a voluntary concordance for reputation building, not only in citizen-world but in government-world. There has been a lot of good discussion about this here in the past and I'm not going against that wisdom. Greg is tracking that in one of his posts, and Declan too if the focus on law is shifted to reputation. How to build reputable products for privacy protection and how to keep them trustworthy. Use of these by officials to invade privacy will surely diminish the products. The capability of the intrusive products should extend to public warnings of likely abuses by whomever, but by officials most so. Nothing unusual about that unless you want government customers. And who doesn't after age 30. So, again, daredeviling products are for those who have nothing to lose. You making profit, handsome profits, you won't give them up for principle, right. That's okay, we are all subject to enlightened self-interest, the same force that leads officials to spy on us and criminalize us doing it to them. I foresee criminalizing anonymizers for us not them. Their laws not ours. Ours is to . . . concord in sweet harmony, as here we do -- until some mean son of a bitch subs up to discord. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Sep 4 21:14:04 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 21:14:04 -0700 Subject: Motives In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010819195419.00ca7950@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com > References: <3B7E63F9.13714.BAB8E1@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010818063120.01c1ee40@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com > <5.0.2.1.0.20010818120121.02114570@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010904164113.030f2410@idiom.com> At 08:00 PM 08/19/2001 -1000, Reese wrote: >We assume the lamerz posting "h3lp m3 m4k3 b0mZ" queries are LEA's >trolling, but are they? Is posting bomb recipes a violation of >some applicable law? If so, what law? If not, why do we assume >those to be LEA trolls, and not some hopeless wank or kook who >needs to get in touch with HisOrHer inner child and beat it up? Our esteemed Senator Diane Feinstein from California, occasionally along with other people such as Joe Biden from my home state of Delaware, occasionally proposes laws against disseminating information on the internet, particularly about bombs and such. (By contrast, an elementary-school education in Delaware includes a trip to the duPont gunpowder-making mills, learning about local history, colonial industry, and safe explosives-making.) So some of the bomb ranting is about her disrespect for the First Amendment. Some of it's pretty clearly from people who troll for the fun of trolling. Some of it might even be lam3r k1ddi3z trying to look k3wl. Some if it, especially post-Columbine and post-J*m B*ll, does appear to be from people trolling usual suspects on the net hoping to find some of them who are scary or stupid enough to entrap into some witch-hunt, a political speech, a newspaper story, a criminal conviction, whatever floats their boat. There actually are laws against blowing stuff up or possessing tools to do so, at least in some circumstances, or conspiring to do Bad Things, or corrupting minors into doing so, and for many purposes an accusation is really more useful than a conviction. Most of it's actually produced by the service* that the Cypherpunks Cabal Central Conspiracy Committee hires to make the list appear to be Mostly Harmless by posting a flood of decoy material and other slanderous and evil material so that the few genuinely dangerous messages can be dismissed as "oh, yeah, kooks troll us with stuff like this all the time" or "Oh, yeah, and last week they claimed we were conspiring with hizbollah.org and the Bilderbergers." [*Plausible Deniability Inc.] From declan at well.com Tue Sep 4 18:54:25 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 21:54:25 -0400 Subject: Moral Crypto In-Reply-To: ; from juicy@melontraffickers.com on Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 05:47:33PM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20010904215424.A25731@cluebot.com> Anonymity allows people to evade laws. Governments don't like that. Read the archives. -Declan On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 05:47:33PM -0700, A. Melon wrote: > What makes you think remailers are such a threat that the federal > government would attempt to license them? How exactly will they help > criminals and terrorists in the time frame of the next five years? > They're not being used for much today, other than annoying people. > It doesn't seem like criminals use them. What's the killer app (so > to speak)? From declan at well.com Tue Sep 4 20:03:47 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 23:03:47 -0400 Subject: Moral Crypto In-Reply-To: <19966c888a47446b2fd297f8bdab15ac@melontraffickers.com>; from juicy@melontraffickers.com on Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 07:26:15PM -0700 References: <19966c888a47446b2fd297f8bdab15ac@melontraffickers.com> Message-ID: <20010904230347.A26669@cluebot.com> Sigh. Read the archives. Tim's cyphernomicon (I think that's what he called it) is a good start. --Declan On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 07:26:15PM -0700, A. Melon wrote: > declan at well.com writes: > > Anonymity allows people to evade laws. Governments don't like that. > > Read the archives. > > It would be nice to see at least one example of something nasty that > could be done with an anonymous remailer in the next few years where > you couldn't get the same effect at the corner phone booth or dropping a > letter in a public mailbox. So far there have been no prohibitions on > sending information anonymously via those mechanisms. Why would email > be singled out? From juicy at melontraffickers.com Tue Sep 4 23:32:32 2001 From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 23:32:32 -0700 Subject: Moral Crypto Message-ID: Tim May writes: > > It would be nice to see at least one example of something nasty that > > could be done with an anonymous remailer in the next few years where > > you couldn't get the same effect at the corner phone booth or dropping a > > letter in a public mailbox. > > Are you dense, or just ignorant? > > Consider the broad class of two-way communications, whether for > information buying and selling, extortion, espionage, arranging contract > killings, etc. Are these sufficiently "nasty" for you? Get real. There's no way these are going to be serious problems in five years. For one thing, they all depend on an established anonymous cash infrastructure for payoff off the crooks, buying the intelligence, etc. There's very little chance that such a system will come into existence soon (look at all the progress in the last five years), and even if it did, any problems with criminal use will be blamed on the cash system, not the email delivery. > Now consider that both the "corner phone booth" and "dropping a letter > in a public mailbox" are untraceable only in _one_ direction. Two-way > communication is not untraceable. Two way anonymous communications have been around for years. Dead drops are a commonly used technique, likewise public postings in classified ads and similar places. It's nothing new and there have been no laws to ban this capability. From trendmarketing at univision.com Tue Sep 4 23:37:52 2001 From: trendmarketing at univision.com (Trend Marketing & Associates) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 23:37:52 Subject: Trend Marketing & Associates Message-ID: <200109050312.UAA02896@toad.com> Trend Marketing & Associates is in the process of maintaining and cleaning its opt in database. You are receiving this message because this email address appears in the database. If you do NOT wish to receive future communication from us nor from our clients please respond to this email and write in the subject line "REMOVE" and you will be permanately eliminated from our database. Thank you. Trend Marketing & Associates está en el proceso de mantenimiento y limpieza de su base de datos. Si usted NO desea recibir ofertas en el futuro por parte nuestra o por parte de nuestros clientes favor de responder a este mensaje escribiendo en la linea del titulo o sujeto "NO MAS". Si no lo hace así el sistema automatizado no lo proceserá. Gracias por su cooperación. From aimee.farr at pobox.com Tue Sep 4 21:45:34 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 23:45:34 -0500 Subject: Moral Crypto isn't wuss-ninnie. In-Reply-To: <200109042305.XAA20882@hey.fuh-q.org> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com]On > Behalf Of Eric Cordian > Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 6:05 PM > To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com > Subject: Re: Moral Crypto isn't wuss-ninnie. > > > Aimee writes: > > > I realize Tim's position, and I respect his right to express > his political > > opinions and ideas, even though I don't agree with them, and > think he is a > > self-identifying flamboyant jackass. I understand that many of > you have the > > same opinions, and likewise.... > > Guess not all Lying Feminist Cunts troll Sex Abuse exclusively. > > -- > Eric Michael Cordian 0+ > O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division > "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" I am not a Feminist. ~Aimee From goin2winn2001 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 4 23:48:37 2001 From: goin2winn2001 at yahoo.com (goin2winn2001 at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 23:48:37 Subject: Let us Pay your way into 3 Rapidly growing MLM companies Message-ID: <200109050505.AAA09322@einstein.ssz.com> THE WANNA BEE FOUNDATION Let us put the pieces together for YOU The Wanna Bee Foundation is NOT a Multi-Level Company. It has NO matrix or payout. We are not putting hundreds of thousands of people into MLM programs, not even hundreds, only a few will get this opportunity to have a chance to become a member of the "Wanna Bee Foundation". Your entry is voted on by the members, then placed into 3 MLM companies (FREE). Only after you are in profit in at least 2 of them, are you required to pay your monthly dues to each of the companies. The annual fee is $29.95. Each individual company will send you a recruiting kit after you become a member. GUARANTEE -- We guarantee you to be in profit before you are asked to complete the applications FOR THE INDIVIDUAL COMPANIES. We will mail out, at no extra cost to you, from one to three million offers a month. All members joining from this email advertising will be placed in all of your downlines. ALL THIS FOR $29.95. PLEASE VISIT: http://hometown.aol.com/joinwbf FOR MORE INFORMATION ABOUT THIS EXCITING OPPORTUNITY. If you are accepted by the WBF, they pay your way into all three companies (any kit fees, plus first month fees). When you are in profit in at least two of the three companies, you are asked to join, and then have 10 days to respond or you lose your position on the team. As a Safelist Emailer member, they mail the WBF information with your ID on it. You even get a copy of the leads that your email advertisement generated (generally between 800 to 3000 per month). You may also use the same leads for any purpose you choose, they can be emailed to you. Now, with each WBF member getting from one to three million email adds sent each month, that adds up to millions + millions of people world wide getting our message each and every month. With this system, getting only one one-hundredth of one percent on the Internet, this will still put new members in each company for YOU every month. Then, the new members will team with you to do more mailings. This message is sent in compliance of the new email bill HR 1910. Under Bill HR 1910 passed by the 106th US Congress on May 24, 1999, this message can not be considered spam as long as we include the way to be removed. Per Section HR 1910., please type REMOVE in the subject line and reply to this email. All removal requests are handled personally and immediately From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Tue Sep 4 17:54:47 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 00:54:47 +0000 Subject: New Worms Seek And Destroy Code Red Message-ID: <200109050054.f850slM51594@mailserver1.hushmail.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 685 bytes Desc: not available URL: From marketing at al-ilmiyah.com Tue Sep 4 16:12:15 2001 From: marketing at al-ilmiyah.com (Jihad Baydoun) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 01:12:15 +0200 Subject: Arabic And Islamic Books Message-ID: <77463832106A.AAR46F7@data450.dm.net.lb> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3470 bytes Desc: not available URL: From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Wed Sep 5 04:31:20 2001 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 04:31:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: <20010905084400.B29327@cluebot.com> from "Declan McCullagh" at Sep 05, 2001 08:44:00 AM Message-ID: <200109051131.LAA22144@hey.fuh-q.org> Declan writes: > What's new here? *Possession* of child porn has been illegal for at > least a decade. Obscenity prosecutions for writing what people find > objectionable have a long history: Joyce, Miller, etc. The legal basis for criminalizing non-obscene erotic depictions of minors is Ferber, which clearly states that such criminalization is Constitutional only when it is necessary to prevent actual persons under the age of 18 from experiencing the harmful workplace environment associated with porn production. Laws which criminalize synthetic visual depictions of the sexuality of minors, as well as written material, which do not depict actual living persons, are clearly unconstitutional under the standard created by Ferber. It is the hope of the Child Sex Hysterics, whose goal is not to protect minors, but to purge from the continuum all counterexamples to their religiously inspired doctrine on the asexuality of persons under 18, that the Sheeple have now been sufficiently programed to react with horror to all depictions of youthful sexuality. This will place the Supreme Court in the position where fabricating from whole cloth a legal justification for criminalizing all such material will be the only alternative to mass rioting in the streets the next time such a case appears before them. I'd rather just shoot the rioters, and raise the average intelligence in the sheep bin by epsilon. If you can criminalize dirty stories, which depict non-obscene sexuality on the part of fictional characters, then you can criminalize just about anything else, including chemistry and cryptography textbooks, and Tom Clancy novels. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From measl at mfn.org Wed Sep 5 05:00:58 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 07:00:58 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: <200109042301.XAA20853@hey.fuh-q.org> Message-ID: This is the case I had in mind when I made my recent assertion that thought==action in today's "court". How can anyone see this case, and not conclude otherwise? This dude is going to spend a long time in stir, for a *pure Thought Crime*. Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Eric Cordian wrote: > Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 16:01:56 -0700 (PDT) > From: Eric Cordian > Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com > To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com > Subject: CDR: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change > > Not unsurprisingly, the judge has refused to permit a man sentenced to 10 > years in prison for textual depictions of child sex in a private journal > to withdraw his guilty plea and get a trial. > > As F. Lee Bailey once said, the major flaw in the American justice system > is that appeals focus only on procedural errors, and ones guilt or > innocence is never again an issue after the original trial, even if that > trial reached the wrong result. > > Having concluded that all the i's were dotted and the t's crossed in the > screwing of Mr. Dalton by the state of Ohio, justice proceeds merrily > onward. > > ----- > > COLUMBUS, Ohio -- A man sentenced to prison for writing fantasies in his > personal journal about torturing and molesting children cannot change his > guilty plea, a judge ruled Tuesday. > > Franklin County Judge Nodine Miller said Brian Dalton did not demonstrate > a "manifest injustice" had taken place. > > Dalton, 22, had asked to withdraw his guilty plea, saying it was not made > knowingly or intelligently, and that he was expecting to be sentenced to > treatment, not 10 years in prison. > > The case alarmed experts in First Amendment and obscenity law, who believe > Dalton is the first person in the country successfully prosecuted for > simply writing what was judged to be child pornography. "Definitely this > is a matter of grave constitutional concerns," said attorney Benson > Wolman, a former executive director of the American Civil Liberties > Union's Ohio chapter. He said he will ask the court to set aside Dalton's > conviction, or file a delayed appeal. > > ... > > -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From blancw at cnw.com Wed Sep 5 07:34:04 2001 From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 07:34:04 -0700 Subject: Moral Anonymizing Message-ID: 1. "make them work for it" (Duncan) 2. You can't prevent them from getting it 3. sell it to them just the same as any other customer 4. sell it to those who can afford it 5. actively pursue them as customers 6. as cooperative sellers, fill out their mandatory forms, tell them your race and gender, and patiently wait longer than usual to get payment 7. maintain a pro-active business relationship with them as a large-volume provider of product and updates for many of their departments and world-wide locations 8. agree to their limits on production and distribution 9. negotiate on backdoors and modifications 10. Happy Cpunk Fun Court is Not Amused You have to know where you can exert influence over quality, and where you want to draw the line against acquiescensce, in order to maintain consistency with your purported philosophy. The prospect for the future is, that either everyone must be made equally weak, or everyone must be allowed to become equally strong. If progress and virtue is in better tools, then eliminating their availability is not an option (although creating tools cannot be enforced, as it requires an intellect and creativity which it is not yet possible to coerce into existence). But providing advanced and useful tools ("giving them the fire") seems to call for a control of consequences which is beyond the humanly possible: they may just end up burning themselves up with it. Why did we, everybody, get bestowed with brains - such potential for power, yet so little wisdom to use it; a little knowledge is such a dangerous thing. .. Blanc From jya at pipeline.com Wed Sep 5 07:34:37 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 07:34:37 -0700 Subject: Official Anonymizing In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010904171424.03746e60@pop3.norton.antivirus> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010904193422.02175ec0@mail.well.com> <200109042040.QAA12188@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <20010904143321.A2385@weathership.homeport.org> <200109041749.NAA26560@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20010831183757.03a22020@pop3.norton.antivirus> <20010904125751.A13920@cluebot.com> <200109041749.NAA26560@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <200109051141.HAA15482@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> Thanks for the cites of Gatti. Greg's disclosure of C2Net's sales is appreciated. Perhaps not surprising. What would be surprising, maybe, would be disclosure as ZKS did in its earliest days, of reporting on meetings C2Net was having with law enforcement officials about its technology. Those admirably exceptionable ZKS reports then stopped, at least I didn't see them after the first few. What I got instead was a rush of advertising from ZKS. Fair enough, as far as business development goes. Those singular souls working at ZKS in the cpunk spirit, are what makes me especially interested in the firm's welfare, in the light of its original goal to make available to the public quite strong privacy protection and anonymity tools. A plan pretty close to the exciting, customer-appealing marketing method outlined by Greg. The ZKS original model did indeed have an anti-authoritarian streak. And presumbly the products live up to that promise. And that is all they do. If ZKS has only explained the technology to the LEAs and sold them the same products as the public gets, then great. And has not been persuaded to do a bit of dirty work as well out of sight of the cpunks. End of concern. Buy its products, invest in it, make the hard workers rich. Still, there is the PGP market model to ponder. And no believable disclosure from Phil why he left, what was done to PGP he could not bear to be a part of so took his settlement and skipped his obligation to his supporters to disclose fully. There is food for thought in why some people leave government service and companies rather than continue to participate in deceptive practices, though often still bound by secrecy agreements and NDAs. I believe that a good bit of the earliest public revelations of cryptology came from such people, as did and does most secret technology used for intrusion on private lives. Diffie hints at being nudged or noodled toward PK by thoughtful researchers. Today there are a host of ex-members of intel agencies telling and warning what they can without being jailed. One recurring theme of those who have worked inside the world of secrecy is how that world has been corrupted by excessive secrecy. And historians regularly write of the corrupting influence of secrecy in government. Undercover law enforcement agents are domestic spies, dreaded secret police in other nations, no matter what spin is put on the need for such operations to fight crime, and they pose a greater danger to civil liberties than the spooks and military from whom they have acquired techniques and technologies devised to combat foreign enemies. This is the crux of the homeland defense demonology, as in times past with other internal demons: government officials treating the citizenry as the enemy within and running secret operations as if intelligence and military operations -- indeed utilizing the resources of those powerful institutions by way of inter-agency agreements to avoid violating law. The Defense Science Board concluded in the Summer of 2000, in particular in its legal recommendations (a panel chaired by ex-NSA counsel Stewart Baker) that it was time to change law prohibiting domestic operations by intel and the military, that this change is needed to combat domestic terrorism and for "protecting the homeland." The DSB report in two parts: "Protecting the Homeland" http://cryptome.org/pth.htm "Defensive Information Operations" http://cryptome.org/dio/dio.htm Painfully ironic is that "protecting the homeland" is a siren sung by every government, left, right and center, which sees its citizenry as the enemy and argues the need for secret police, urges citizens informing on each other, runs secret courts, and generally stigmatizes anti-government conduct, yes, and speech. Anybody who continues to argue that AP was not used to convict Jim Bell, and that a crackdown on speech, not merely conduct, is not underway, lives in a bubble of ignorance or privilege. Or, more likely, is peddling deception as successful businesses ever must do after reaching maturity and youthful promises peter out. From mattd at useoz.com Tue Sep 4 14:36:20 2001 From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 07:36:20 +1000 Subject: ...considered boring Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010905072724.009da890@pop.useoz.com> . V AB wrote.>For example, ideas like FreeNet, which are derived from the cryptoanarchist school of thought. So, the answer to your question is that it's interesting to me and I'm the one doing the programming. If you can come up with something more interesting I'll probably be happy to work on it. But I'm not really interested in padding the pockets of the Lime Group, LCC. and I'm buzz worded out on P2P. What I like is the idea of trying to revitalize the cypherpunk movement - even a very tiny little bit. I'm really very disappointed with the Individual Sovereignty/Cryptoanarchy subculture lately. It seems to be running out of steam. There seems to be very few people working on interesting things. Coderpunks is a ghost town with occasional spam rolling through like a tumble weed, and cypherpunks seems to be obsessed with Jim Bell like a bunch of little girls over the back street boys. < Cant you be obsessed with JB and Cryptoanarchy/freenet? Like if some outlaws dont unite and fight(using AP)with some indians,we'll all be forced down the trail of tears to the freenet reservation. Fuck that. From declan at well.com Wed Sep 5 05:23:50 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 08:23:50 -0400 Subject: biochemwomdterror in dc Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010905082334.00a56020@mail.well.com> topday: SENATE FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE Bioterrorism Full committee hearing on the treat of bioterrorism and the spread of infectious diseases. Witnesses: Sam Nunn, co-chairman/CEO, Nuclear Threat Initiative; James Woolsey, former director, CIA, partner, Shea and Gardner; D.A. Henderson, director, Center for Civilian Biodefense Studies, Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, MD; David Heymann, executive director, Communicable Diseases, World Health Organization, Geneva, Switzerland; Fred Ikle, distinguished scholar, Center for Strategic and International Studies; Frank Cilluffo, senior policy analyst, Center for Strategic and International Studies Location: 419 Dirksen Senate Office Building. 10 a.m. Contact: 202-224-3953 http://senate.gov/committee/foreign.html SENATE HEALTH, EDUCATION, LABOR AND PENSIONS COMMITTEE Stem Cell Research Full committee hearing to examine stem cell research issues. Witnesses: Sen. Arlen Specter, R-Pa.; HHS Secretary Tommy Thompson; Douglas Melton, Ph.D., Thomas Dudley Cabot Professor in the Natural Sciences, chairman, Department of Molecular and Cellular Biology, Harvard University; Karen Hersey, senior counsel, Intellectual Property, Massachusetts Institute of Technology; James Childress, Ph.D., Edwin Kyle Professor of Religious Ethics, University of Virginia; Kevin FitzGerald, SJ Ph.D., Georgetown University; John Chute, head, Hematopoietic Stem Cell Studies Section, NIDDK/Navy Transplantation and Autoimmunity Branch at NIH/Bethesda Naval Medical Center Location: 106 Dirksen Senate Office Building. 9:30 a.m. Contact: 202-224-5375 http://www.senate.gov/~labor **REVISED** From honig at sprynet.com Wed Sep 5 08:32:03 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 08:32:03 -0700 Subject: Piggybacking tools for deployment is the point (was Re: Moral Crypto) In-Reply-To: <705d55a68e5e455cd4a9e0530246c7b6@dizum.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010905083203.00889540@pop.sprynet.com> At 09:30 AM 9/5/01 +0200, Nomen Nescio wrote: >On Sun, 2 Sep 2001, David Honig wrote: >> At 12:34 PM 9/2/01 -0700, Tim May wrote: >> >Then design such a system. >> You did a few lines earlier: >> >(Or if one is a remailer oneself.) > >Or, simply have a remailer client that randomly generates dummy traffic, >and be sure to chain through multiple remailers. You don't need to accept >incoming remailer traffic from other live people -- this is sufficient to >hide when, if ever, you are using the remailer network. Yes, however my emphesis was on the *deployment* of the tools by "piggybacking" on other very-popular p2p-ish tools. >You still stick out as a remailer user, though. Not if the next versions of IE or Windows or Morpheus contains remailer functionality enabled by default! That's the point. If every copy of Windows(Chinese) came with then it would be hard to bust people for possession of the tools. If every copy of Windows(English) came with enabled, it would be hard to bust people for running a remailer. >(A while ago, someone posted a physics question usnig a remailer, and Tim >mused that they were probably a troll, since they were using a remailer to >pose this question. I found that remark surprising, for precisely this >reason. Everyone should use remailers from time to time to ask innocent >questions, in case of being asked by The Authorities to provide an example >of one's correspondence using such technology.) Yes; however its also possible the author didn't want their ignorance associated with a given nym. ....... "Perhaps this whole thing is just one person talking to himself, with Tim listening in!" -Dr Evil From declan at well.com Wed Sep 5 05:39:23 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 08:39:23 -0400 Subject: Moral Crypto In-Reply-To: <0dffd49964f5e7725c25b58f9206334b@dizum.com>; from nobody@dizum.com on Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 09:50:38AM +0200 References: <0dffd49964f5e7725c25b58f9206334b@dizum.com> Message-ID: <20010905083923.A29327@cluebot.com> On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 09:50:38AM +0200, Nomen Nescio wrote: > Declan brought this up in a "sky-is-falling" article about remailers and > anti-spam legislation. I do not believe this is a valid threat. This is incorrect on at least two points: My artcle did not say such a law was particularly likely, so it hardly deserves to be characterized as "sky is falling." (My position is only that folks should consider what would happen if such a law were to be passed.) Second, someone else brought up anti-spam legislation. -Declan From declan at well.com Wed Sep 5 05:44:00 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 08:44:00 -0400 Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: ; from measl@mfn.org on Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 07:00:58AM -0500 References: <200109042301.XAA20853@hey.fuh-q.org> Message-ID: <20010905084400.B29327@cluebot.com> On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 07:00:58AM -0500, measl at mfn.org wrote: > This is the case I had in mind when I made my recent assertion that > thought==action in today's "court". How can anyone see this case, and not > conclude otherwise? This dude is going to spend a long time in stir, for > a *pure Thought Crime*. What's new here? *Possession* of child porn has been illegal for at least a decade. Obscenity prosecutions for writing what people find objectionable have a long history: Joyce, Miller, etc. Take a longer view. -Declan From honig at sprynet.com Wed Sep 5 08:51:56 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 08:51:56 -0700 Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: <200109051356.JAA07974@granger.mail.mindspring.net> References: <20010905084400.B29327@cluebot.com> <200109042301.XAA20853@hey.fuh-q.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010905085156.00888460@pop.sprynet.com> At 09:49 AM 9/5/01 -0700, John Young wrote: >Isn't what is new here is that the man did not publish this material >as was the material of Joyce, Miller, et al? Nobody saw it except >him and the cop who discovered it. Wasn't it his *parents* who read his journal and turned him in, hoping for 'treatment' instead of jail? Shades of David & Ted Kaczynski... From gbroiles at well.com Wed Sep 5 09:17:30 2001 From: gbroiles at well.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 09:17:30 -0700 Subject: Official Anonymizing In-Reply-To: <200109051141.HAA15482@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20010904171424.03746e60@pop3.norton.antivirus> <5.0.2.1.0.20010904193422.02175ec0@mail.well.com> <200109042040.QAA12188@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <20010904143321.A2385@weathership.homeport.org> <200109041749.NAA26560@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20010831183757.03a22020@pop3.norton.antivirus> <20010904125751.A13920@cluebot.com> <200109041749.NAA26560@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010905085856.03690e70@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 07:34 AM 9/5/2001 -0700, John Young wrote: >Thanks for the cites of Gatti. > >Greg's disclosure of C2Net's sales is appreciated. Perhaps not >surprising. What would be surprising, maybe, would be disclosure >as ZKS did in its earliest days, of reporting on meetings C2Net was >having with law enforcement officials about its technology. Didn't happen - at least not within my knowledge. I don't think we'd have been willing to have one, given our crypto export control stance (and paranoia about law enforcement) at that point. Given the state of the law at that time (lots of this was before Patel's rulings in _Bernstein_, during the ITAR period before BXA took over crypto regs, and way before the export liberalization), we weren't at all sure we weren't going to be arrested and made examples of, cf. Dmitry Sklyarov. Law enforcement never asked for a meeting, probably because of (a) ignorance of or disinterest in the technology, or (b) if they did understand it, they also understood that we were essentially selling Apache-SSL (from a technical standpoint), so if they wanted a copy to beat up on, they could build it themselves - they didn't need an RSA license to legitimize their internal/research copies. We did get a moderate amount of interest in the remailers/anonymizers which ran at C2 in the early days, and later were run somewhere else but whose domain name was held by C2; callers on that topic generally got a nice long explanation of how remailers work, how we didn't know the identity of the person running the remailer nor its physical location, why we supported remailers as free speech tools, and how as a provider of DNS lookups we never had any logs of activity in the first place to disclose, whether or not we had wanted to, court order or not. Complainers pretty much went away after getting the explanation, save for one publisher of avant-garde fonts who never did give up trying to cajole or scare us into giving out the information we didn't have, and/or shutting down DNS to the privacy stuff. I think ZKS' technology is more interesting and more threatening to law enforcement than our web crypto tools were - there's still not a lot of evil or disorder that goes on related to, literally, the web - I get the impression that law enforcement is a lot more interested in IRC, email, and other communications which are either more personal and immediate, or much less personal and immediate (like Usenet). Web sites are still relatively static, which means their providers are pretty easily identified, which means not so much bad stuff happens there. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at well.com "We have found and closed the thing you watch us with." -- New Delhi street kids From nobody at dizum.com Wed Sep 5 00:30:08 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 09:30:08 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Moral Crypto Message-ID: <6d56447f244764068cb7df0c4f013b9a@dizum.com> On Sun, 2 Sep 2001 georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote: > If the remailer operators decided they wanted to deny "baddies" > use of their services, they would not only have to unanimously > agree as to who the "baddies" are, they would also have to deny > their services in all cases where the client cannot be positovely > identified. Neither of which strikes me as being plausible. We do this (or some of us do.) When a spammer is detected, often his IP address or email address is added to a block list. It doesn't work all that well. We can't block people -- only electronic representations of them. From nobody at dizum.com Wed Sep 5 00:30:11 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 09:30:11 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Moral Crypto Message-ID: <705d55a68e5e455cd4a9e0530246c7b6@dizum.com> On Sun, 2 Sep 2001, David Honig wrote: > At 12:34 PM 9/2/01 -0700, Tim May wrote: > >Someone else: > >> The fact that you may be > >> identifiable at the point of entry to an anonymity system is > >> a weakness, not a desired feature, and if it can be avoided, it > >> should be. > >> > > > >Then design such a system. > > > You did a few lines earlier: > > >(Or if one is a remailer oneself.) Or, simply have a remailer client that randomly generates dummy traffic, and be sure to chain through multiple remailers. You don't need to accept incoming remailer traffic from other live people -- this is sufficient to hide when, if ever, you are using the remailer network. You still stick out as a remailer user, though. (A while ago, someone posted a physics question usnig a remailer, and Tim mused that they were probably a troll, since they were using a remailer to pose this question. I found that remark surprising, for precisely this reason. Everyone should use remailers from time to time to ask innocent questions, in case of being asked by The Authorities to provide an example of one's correspondence using such technology.) From nobody at dizum.com Wed Sep 5 00:30:19 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 09:30:19 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Moral Crypto Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Sep 2001, Nomen Nescio wrote: > The fact that a given person is using the remailer network is not a > secret. At least one remailer finds out every time he sends a message. > The point is, the entry from the non-anonymous to the anonymous world > is a vulnerability. Unless you run a remailer yourself. The fact that I use anonymous remailers would be hard to deny, if am a remailer operator. However, if I make my own remailer first in the chain, an attacker sitting at the second remailer will not be able to tell when I am using my remailer myself vs. when it is being used by others vs. dummy cover traffic. From juicy at melontraffickers.com Wed Sep 5 09:40:58 2001 From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 09:40:58 -0700 Subject: Official Anonymizing Message-ID: John Young takes a courageous stand: > I propose that all anonymizers adopt a code of practice that > any sale to officials of anonymizers or their use be disclosed > to the public (I suggested this to ZKS early on when first > meetings with the feds to explain the technology were being > sometimes disclosed). That seems to be a reasonable response > to officially-secret prowling and investigating cyberspace. Absolutely appropriate, given cypherpunk goals. It may be difficult to apply in every case but the intention is laudable. Here is an example of the principle put into practice, from the anonymous web proxy service at http://proxy.magusnet.com/proxy.html: : If you are accessing this proxy from a *.mil or *.gov address : it will not work. As a taxpaying United States Citizen[TM], : Business Owner, and Desert Storm Veteran, I do not want my : tax dollars being used by agencies I pay for to gawk(1) : at WWW pages and hide your origination point at my expense. : Now, get back to work! From jya at pipeline.com Wed Sep 5 09:49:12 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 09:49:12 -0700 Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: <20010905084400.B29327@cluebot.com> References: <200109042301.XAA20853@hey.fuh-q.org> Message-ID: <200109051356.JAA07974@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Isn't what is new here is that the man did not publish this material as was the material of Joyce, Miller, et al? Nobody saw it except him and the cop who discovered it. It was the Man who published, converted private scribblings into illegal material, not the man. Neat trick, the drooling officials building private collections, like the story today of the Soviets amassing a huge stock of erotica, now and then visited by officials who, the porno librarian claims, always expressed shock and outrage, then purloined a few samples for private use. "What could I do about the stealing," the librarian is quoted, "they were officials." If officials possess gobs of kiddie porn, as many confessedly brag, and claim to be shocked, shocked, and eagerly exhibit the stuff to judges and juries and court attendants who are shocked, shocked, what is wrong with that? Thank Buddha the FBI is working closely with the Red Chinese, reported in the WSJ yesterday, in US-Chineses criminal investigations to balance the US promoting anonymizers to bypass Chinese clampdown on the Internet. What is Carnivore called in the PRC? There will be no peepholes in anonymizers trusted by the citizen users. A bit of loose code, hardly noticeable, but thankfully no moral code, why that would be consumer/ customer/voter/dissident/reputation/gosh my editor, my boss did it, I couldn't have known, I'm only human, the pressure was incredible/here are my private scribblings trust me betrayal. From nobody at dizum.com Wed Sep 5 00:50:36 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 09:50:36 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Official Anonymizing Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, John Young wrote: > Nobody has yet seen an fbi.gov in the logs, or nsa.mil/gov, > though a few ucia.gov and nro.gov crop up, and the ubiquitous > nscs.mil. fbi.gov = .usdoj.gov, as far as web logs go. From nobody at dizum.com Wed Sep 5 00:50:38 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 09:50:38 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Moral Crypto Message-ID: <0dffd49964f5e7725c25b58f9206334b@dizum.com> On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Eric Murray wrote: > Another way to kill remailers would be through anti-spam legislation > that forbids "forging" email headers. We're already seeing some of > this. Declan brought this up in a "sky-is-falling" article about remailers and anti-spam legislation. I do not believe this is a valid threat. Mail from "juicy at melontraffickers.com" does come from the melontraffickers.com server. It is not forged. (Such legistion would protect against unfortunate instances like the flowers.com case.) This *would* require some remailers, like frog2, to stop allowing "From:" line specification. But that's hardly a big issue. > My guess is that the first or second is most likely. It won't even be > targeted at remailers, just at regular email. > > Killing remailers will be a by-product of regulating the net. Unless the next Tim McVeigh ever uses a remailer in his life. Mark my words: The next major act of domestic terrorism will somehow involve either crypto or remailers, *according to the government investigators' reports.* Insert appropriate fnords where necessary. From gbroiles at well.com Wed Sep 5 10:12:25 2001 From: gbroiles at well.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 10:12:25 -0700 Subject: Official Anonymizing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010905100242.036c0750@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 09:40 AM 9/5/2001 -0700, A. Melon wrote: >Here is an example of the principle put into practice, from the >anonymous web proxy service at http://proxy.magusnet.com/proxy.html: > >: If you are accessing this proxy from a *.mil or *.gov address >: it will not work. As a taxpaying United States Citizen[TM], >: Business Owner, and Desert Storm Veteran, I do not want my >: tax dollars being used by agencies I pay for to gawk(1) >: at WWW pages and hide your origination point at my expense. >: Now, get back to work! Sure, that's an understandable sentiment, but isn't this also isolating the good (or teachable) people inside government who might be open-minded about freedom or crypto or whatever, such that they can't learn from us, and such that (in the case of anonymizing tools) they can't leak information? I think there's an argument that it's useful to provide pipes into secretive organizations which allow insiders to release information with reduced fear of internal retaliation - sure, they may be used for provocation and disinformation, but they also may be used for and by decent people. (Like, for example, Fred Whitehurst, a supervisory special agent in the FBI's crime lab, who revealed systematic dishonesty, incompetence, perjury, and contamination in the agency's high-profile analytic & forensic operations - see or .) I don't think this question is as easy as it sounds at first. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at well.com "We have found and closed the thing you watch us with." -- New Delhi street kids From adam at homeport.org Wed Sep 5 07:35:37 2001 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 10:35:37 -0400 Subject: Official Anonymizing In-Reply-To: <200109051141.HAA15482@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> References: <200109042040.QAA12188@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <20010904143321.A2385@weathership.homeport.org> <200109041749.NAA26560@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20010831183757.03a22020@pop3.norton.antivirus> <20010904125751.A13920@cluebot.com> <200109041749.NAA26560@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20010904171424.03746e60@pop3.norton.antivirus> <200109051141.HAA15482@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <20010905103537.A11733@weathership.homeport.org> On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 07:34:37AM -0700, John Young wrote: | Thanks for the cites of Gatti. | | Greg's disclosure of C2Net's sales is appreciated. Perhaps not | surprising. What would be surprising, maybe, would be disclosure | as ZKS did in its earliest days, of reporting on meetings C2Net was | having with law enforcement officials about its technology. Those | admirably exceptionable ZKS reports then stopped, at least I didn't | see them after the first few. What I got instead was a rush of | advertising from ZKS. Fair enough, as far as business | development goes. They'd have gotten rather stale after the first few. After all, we didn't include names, so the only thing you'd have seen changing was the date. As far as I know, there haven't been any in a while. Once we got our message and delivery down, the message seemed to spread that we were not adding any back doors, and hey, this is useful for undercover work and preventing crimes. TLAs have gotten no special delivery packages. I don't really see why they'd want them, except perhaps to shave their budgets. We said when we shipped 1.0 that we wouldn't stand up to a TLA attack. We (Ian, myself, and later Adam Back) have written a 15 page paper on how to attack our system. Which is far more than any other security or privacy provider I'm aware of. Adam -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From adam at homeport.org Wed Sep 5 07:46:33 2001 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 10:46:33 -0400 Subject: Official Anonymizing In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010904193422.02175ec0@mail.well.com> References: <20010904143321.A2385@weathership.homeport.org> <200109041749.NAA26560@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20010831183757.03a22020@pop3.norton.antivirus> <20010904125751.A13920@cluebot.com> <200109041749.NAA26560@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <200109042040.QAA12188@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <5.0.2.1.0.20010904193422.02175ec0@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <20010905104633.A11784@weathership.homeport.org> On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 07:53:12PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: | Let me try to restate John's proposal, which has some very attractive | qualities. There are a few questions, it seems to me: | | 1. Should we require by law that government employees never act under cover | of anonymity? (In practice, what does that mean? Does that mean they can't | lie about their truename, or does it mean that they have to affirmatively | volunteer their employment status?) The mice voted to bell the cat. | I think John has a valid point when he says that we should look askance at | anonymity firms that help government spy on us. Companies would be | well-advised to make their practices (we sell to Feds, we refuse to sell to | Feds) public. But the market being what it is, the tools so well-discussed | in so many circles, and the switch from .mil or .gov to .org or .com so | easy, that I suspect such promises might give us only a false sense of | security. I think much more interesting is the question of government funded anonymity tools. The paranoid might think they're trying to drive others out of business. Is it even legal (in the US) to refuse to sell to the feds? I know that many companies have seperate entities (ie, Sun Federal Systems) to avoid some of the more onerous restrictions, like needing to give your best deal to the feds. Adam | -Declan | | At 04:33 PM 9/4/01 -0700, John Young wrote: | >I try to abide the principle that if one gets anonymized | >all should. However, there is a disparity in who gets | >to leverage that anonymity -- from the citizen to the | >empowered official. | > | >We have now more privilege of conealment on the official | >side, and that needs redress, constant redress a rebel | >might yell. | > | >Not much of my proposal is radical: there is a long tradition | >for officials to own up to what they do in their official | >roles. The uniformed police, the uniformed military | >services. That is far less done in the case of the spooks | >and, increasingly lately, law enforcement and the military | >as the latter adopt the practices and more importantly | >the technology of spooks -- and the spooks' lack of | >public accountability (those oversight committees are | >a fraud). | > | >The culture of secrecy is vastly overweighted in favor of | >government, and much of that derives from hoary claims | >of national security. Undercover and covert operations | >have become far more pervasive in the US government | >and military than ever, and constitute a privileged elite in | >mil/gov, and often law enforcement, moving from the | >federal agencies into state and locals -- and contractors | >and suppliers for all these. And all are bound by a | >complicitous and luxurious veil of secrecy. | > | >It is fairly common for goodhearts to question government | >but not when national security, and more recently, domestic | >security, is bruited. But that is due to a well-crafted educational | >campaign to raise national security to a theological level, and | >its rational is itself cloaked in secrecy. A similar theologizing | >is underway, methinks despite Declan's unreflective demurral, | >in the campaign for combatting domestic terrorism, the | >Homeland Defense demonolgy. | > | >Having learned much here about the futility of trying to determine | >who gets privacy technology and who does not, it remains true | >that for most of us access to this technology is very recent and we | >know not what lies outside our knowledge. | > | >I am not as sanguine about government as I was before being | >semi-educated by this list about what technology is in covert use. | > | >And I am not as sanguine about the wisdom of providing technology | >to government on the same footing as the citizen. There is more | >than a bit of marketing opportunism is this view -- and government | >knows very well what power the purse has to seduce young firms | >into the world of secrecy. | > | >So I say again, that despite it being economic foolhardiness, indeed | >because it is that, there needs to be a code of practice for anonimyzer | >developers to state their policy of helping governments snoop on | >us without us knowing. Agnosticism in this matter is complicity | >when such a stance cloaks government intrusiveness. | > | >Look, I'll accept that we will all succumb to the power of the market, | >so limit my proposal for full disclosure to those over 30. After that | >age one should know there is no way to be truly open-minded. -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From 1.10198689.-13 at multexinvestornetwork.com Wed Sep 5 08:29:23 2001 From: 1.10198689.-13 at multexinvestornetwork.com (Multex Investor) Date: 5 Sep 2001 11:29:23 -0400 Subject: Test Your Investment Strategy. Win Prizes. Message-ID: <074462329150591MINLIST1@multexinvestornetwork.com> ********************************************************************* As a registered Multex Investor member, we will occasionally contact you with special opportunities. To unsubscribe to this or any other exclusive offers, please see the bottom of this message. ********************************************************************* Dear Multex Investor Member, Trading has begun in the fourth round of the Multex Investor Challenge. Don't miss out on your chance to win $25,000 and other great prizes by managing a $100,000 virtual portfolio. 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You may also unsubscribe on the account update page at: http://www.multexinvestor.com/edituinfo.asp =================================================================== Please email advertising inquiries to us at: mailto:advertise at multex.com. From mmotyka at lsil.com Wed Sep 5 11:44:28 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 11:44:28 -0700 Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change Message-ID: <3B96728C.27ED7437@lsil.com> Well, I'm not totally retarded but I still don't always follow JYA that well. I'll keep trying. Did the OH guy have a lawyer? If so, did he follow the advice he was given? While I would not myself send the guy to prison for his writings however goofy or sick I may find them, a person who writes this stuff runs a serious risk of my interpreting even the slightest action on his part as intent and of getting himself gutted in the spot. The thoughts color the interpretation of the actions. Mike From declan at well.com Wed Sep 5 09:17:58 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 12:17:58 -0400 Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: <200109051356.JAA07974@granger.mail.mindspring.net>; from jya@pipeline.com on Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 09:49:12AM -0700 References: <200109042301.XAA20853@hey.fuh-q.org> <20010905084400.B29327@cluebot.com> <200109051356.JAA07974@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <20010905121758.B387@cluebot.com> On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 09:49:12AM -0700, John Young wrote: > Isn't what is new here is that the man did not publish this material > as was the material of Joyce, Miller, et al? Nobody saw it except > him and the cop who discovered it. It was the Man who published, > converted private scribblings into illegal material, not the man. No, this isn't new. You didn't read my earlier message carefully. Mere possession (not creation) of visual depictions of child pornography has been a federal felony for at least a decade. Someone who's a "collector" who did not publish the material would be a felon. Note I'm not defending the law, and there are plenty of problems with the Ohio prosecution, but it is not something that folks here should be particularly surprised about. -Declan From jya at pipeline.com Wed Sep 5 12:22:41 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 12:22:41 -0700 Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: <20010905121758.B387@cluebot.com> References: <200109051356.JAA07974@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <200109042301.XAA20853@hey.fuh-q.org> <20010905084400.B29327@cluebot.com> <200109051356.JAA07974@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <200109051629.MAA31130@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Declan, you condescending prig, I did read your message and was trying to askance your clubfingeredness about "possession," which isn't as monolithic as you vaunt and which smacked overmuch of LEAs' agressive erasure of distinctions. Hector me not, for the failure to look behind heavy-handed law enforcement, dementia, concerning kiddie porn can be interpreted as complicity, or worse, distancing from the obligation to relook, rethink, and re-examine one's own proclivities to avoid the worst dispute in the country. The pathology of kiddie porn is probably the vilest plague upon the land, and that is due to bravehearts running scared of the infected nuts who may, if they have their way, beat out abortion and guns and vile government as pointless no-brainers. Come back, Smokey, tell me something new about what's wrong with "possession" in this particular case, not what is in the read the fucking manual before I waste my time wasting mine. Coda: I'm trying a new pseudo-comprehensible writing style, so fuck off. No vanity sig just yet but it will come. From frissell at panix.com Wed Sep 5 09:23:19 2001 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 12:23:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Sep 2001 measl at mfn.org wrote: > This is the case I had in mind when I made my recent assertion that > thought==action in today's "court". How can anyone see this case, and not > conclude otherwise? This dude is going to spend a long time in stir, for > a *pure Thought Crime*. > > > Yours, > > J.A. Terranson > sysadmin at mfn.org > To which the mentally retarded twit plead guilty. If you plead guilty (like Michael Milken or Jim Bell 1) you don't get to challange the prosecution. People who plead guilty in political cases like these get more time (on average) than those who contest them. Kipling had some advice for these sorts of cases: Dane-Geld A.D. 980-1016 It is always a temptation to an armed and agile nation To call upon a neighbour and to say:-- "We invaded you last night--we are quite prepared to fight, Unless you pay us cash to go away." And that is called asking for Dane-geld, And the people who ask it explain That you've only to pay 'em the Dane-geld And then you'll get rid of the Dane! It is always a temptation for a rich and lazy nation, To puff and look important and to say:-- "Though we know we should defeat you, we have not the time to meet you. We will therefore pay you cash to go away." And that is called paying the Dane-geld; But we've proved it again and again, That if once you have paid him the Dane-geld You never get rid of the Dane. It is wrong to put temptation in the path of any nation, For fear they should succumb and go astray; So when you are requested to pay up or be molested, You will find it better policy to say:-- "We never pay any-one Dane-geld, No matter how trifling the cost; For the end of that game is oppression and shame, And the nation that pays it is lost!" DCF From mmotyka at lsil.com Wed Sep 5 12:26:32 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 12:26:32 -0700 Subject: speech + action Message-ID: <3B967C68.83051995@lsil.com> Tim May wrote : >On Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 10:59 AM, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: > >> Declan McCullagh wrote: >>> >>> On Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 10:59:54AM -0700, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: >>>> Sure, I mention it because despite its being non-functional and >>>> unpunishable it seemed to have been brought into the courtroom with >>>> the >>>> purpose of spicing up the case. >>> >>> Sure. If you commit unacceptable-to-the-gvt *actions* and also spend a >>> lot of time talking about how government officials should be >>> assassinated, you may reasonably expect those statements to be used >>> against you during your trial. >>> I think the speech, irrelevant as it was, was used to increase the perceived severity of the actions. Isn't this in effect being punished for speech+action? >>> But that is a far cry from your earlier government-has-this-power >>> position, from which you're now backtracking. >>> >>> -Declan >>> >> Not so much backtracking as thinking out loud. Just musing on how the >> letter of the law, its constitutionality, enforcement and even the >> reasoning behind its creation are not always lined up so well. >> >> 18 U.S.C. 23 1 contains the seeds of the speech+action idea. >> > >Please explain. You made the first assertion of this, then "backslid" as >people poked holes in your argument, now you appear to be swinging back >in the other direction merely by asserting something about "seeds." > Really little to explain. Obviously laws cover speech + action. It's just a question of where the boundaries are in their application. I don't know too much about those finer points. [CITE: 18USC371] TITLE 18--CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE PART I--CRIMES CHAPTER 19--CONSPIRACY Sec. 371. Conspiracy to commit offense or to defraud United States If two or more persons conspire either to commit any offense against the United States, or to defraud the United States, or any agency thereof in any manner or for any purpose, and one or more of such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both. Could this be applied to software development? I suppose that depends on whether the software in design is prohibited or not. Until the DMCA is altered or deleted there's already a class of SW that is illegal. It doesn't seem so far-fetched that a discussion of content piracy followed by an active coding project could be attacked. Why not a discussion of tax evasion methods followed by a development project? And don't forget that it's still possible to run afoul of the crypto export regulations. Are our visionary legislators capable of outlawing new classes of software? It's a sure bet. I'll leave it to the lawyers to argue over how specific the speech and actions need to be. Want to test it? Start a project with the stated goals of providing a neat open source project with the stated purpose of cracking and exchanging e-books and start posting code. If you were to start YAPPFSP ( yet another peer to peer file sharing project ) would you state its purpose as "to share pirated music data?" >Could you give a cite for any prosecutions, or are you just speculating >that "Happy Fun Court" will not be "amused" by free speech? > I'm sure there are plenty of conspiracy cases involving the more blatant crimes like kidnapping etc... Are there any militia cases? Like you said, try and find one. The law as written does seem to outlaw speech. The anti-militia laws are interesting in that the least popular are likely to suffer first from "creative" legislation. If an approach is successful against the unpopular then it can always be expanded to include new groups. I offer the bomz and drug speech legislation as further attempts along the same lines. Successful, no, not yet, but they'll keep trying. If they are eventually successful it will cost somebody a bundle to get it overturned. That's a market problem : it's cheaper to make bad law than it is to unmake it. As for the fictional Happy Fun Court's inquisitorial wet dreams, it can go spoliate its head in a bucket. >Comment: It seems to me we are seeing way too many people hitting the >panic button, speculating about some of us getting shot by agents of >happy fun courts, claiming that merely using secrecy methods is >spoliation, arguing that speech is being criminalized, and that, in >essence, we'd all better just slink away from these free speech and >crypto thoughtcrimes. > Speculating yes, panic button, no. It can be instructive to pursue an idea to an extreme. >Fuck that. Don't let the wuss ninnies scare you off. > >--TIm May > Ah, the dreaded wuss-ninnies. I'm not losing any sleep over the Happy Fun Court or its cackling brigade of wuss-ninnies. I'm more concerned that all of the cat5 wires I pulled through the smurf tubes this past weekend are not damaged so I don't have to crawl around my fucking attic anymore. If there's anything I dislike more than wuss-ninnies it's blown-in fiberglass. Mike Question : is steganography code export restricted or is it not even described under the current set of rules? From gbroiles at well.com Wed Sep 5 12:46:01 2001 From: gbroiles at well.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 12:46:01 -0700 Subject: Official Anonymizing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010905120423.03b3a9d0@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 02:37 PM 9/5/2001 -0400, Faustine wrote: > >And, in the spirit of full disclosure, I'll mention that at C2Net we did > >sell our software to the government/intelligence agencies who wanted it - > >they paid the same prices as any other customers, signed the same sales > >contracts (we'd negotiate some on warranty terms for big purchases), and > >otherwise got what everyone else got - not more, not less. > >Your honesty is admirable--and unlike certain other cases, I don't have any >real reason to doubt what you say. But are you sure you have adequate >security and counter-economic espionage measures in place? Have you had >anyone do penetration testing lately? How much do you trust the people you >work with? Everything I've mentioned about C2Net is now several years old - I left the company in the last few months of 1998, and they've since been acquired and swallowed-up by Red Hat (RHAT), and (almost?) everyone who worked there when I was there has also left. If I weren't confident that I'm talking about history, not current events, I wouldn't be saying anything. (.. and there are some parts of the C2Net history which I'll likely never be in a position to disclose, ethically speaking, because of the nature of my relationship (general counsel) with the organization. Caveat emptor.) We did take an active interest in the security of our systems and codebase - I don't think we were perfect, with respect to physical or electronic security, but we were pretty paranoid, perhaps at some cost to the personal lives of the principals involved. But your points about insider risks are well taken - especially given that most security incidents have an inside, not outside, source. I believe that the software we published was free of intentional holes or errors, and was built as carefully as we knew how; that belief is based on my familiarity with the build environment, and my knowledge over several years of the people involved in the development process, and my impressions of their competence and integrity. Still, people's expectations and faith in other people can be misplaced - c.f. Aldrich Ames, Robert Hanssen (a personal friend of James [Puzzle Palace, Body of Secrets] Bamford, who never suspected), and Brian Regan - I don't know of any method or practice which can prevent hidden betrayal, for love or money or boredom or personal animus. And Ken Thompson's "Reflections on Trusting Trust" serves as a reminder of how subtle a betrayal or compromise can be, yet remain active and dangerous. A big part of our counter-economic-coercion resistance was ideological - if people really believe that they're working to protect and defend freedom and privacy, it's hard to tempt them with money, at least not just a little money. On the other hand, it's easier to tempt them with ideological arguments, which are cheaper; or for them to become so entranced with each other's political correctness that they lose sight of basic personal integrity and decency. (We didn't have trouble with that at C2Net, but it's historically been a problem inside ideologically-motivated organizations or groups.) >With a lot of >young tech companies having spent the last few years feeling fat, happy, >and oh-so-much smarter than those fusty old feds, you've got a potentially >massive disaster in the making. Pride goeth before destruction; and a haughty spirit before a fall. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at well.com "We have found and closed the thing you watch us with." -- New Delhi street kids From declan at well.com Wed Sep 5 09:53:26 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 12:53:26 -0400 Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: <200109051629.MAA31130@granger.mail.mindspring.net>; from jya@pipeline.com on Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 12:22:41PM -0700 References: <200109051356.JAA07974@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <200109042301.XAA20853@hey.fuh-q.org> <20010905084400.B29327@cluebot.com> <200109051356.JAA07974@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <20010905121758.B387@cluebot.com> <200109051629.MAA31130@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <20010905125326.A1305@cluebot.com> John, my ill-mannered, surly, and lovable friend, you may have read it, but you sure didn't understand it. My point, such as it is, is that the Ohio case is a natural expansion and mild evolution of "child porn" laws in the U.S. If y'all are going to get upset about the Ohio statute and prosecution, then you should be looking critically at state and federal obscenity laws and child porn laws as well. John, to his credit, seems to be doing that. -Declan On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 12:22:41PM -0700, John Young wrote: > Declan, you condescending prig, I did read your message and > was trying to askance your clubfingeredness about "possession," > which isn't as monolithic as you vaunt and which smacked > overmuch of LEAs' agressive erasure of distinctions. > > Hector me not, for the failure to look behind heavy-handed > law enforcement, dementia, concerning kiddie porn can > be interpreted as complicity, or worse, distancing from the > obligation to relook, rethink, and re-examine one's own > proclivities to avoid the worst dispute in the country. > > The pathology of kiddie porn is probably the vilest plague > upon the land, and that is due to bravehearts running scared > of the infected nuts who may, if they have their way, beat > out abortion and guns and vile government as pointless > no-brainers. > > Come back, Smokey, tell me something new about what's > wrong with "possession" in this particular case, not what > is in the read the fucking manual before I waste my time > wasting mine. > > Coda: > > I'm trying a new pseudo-comprehensible writing style, so > fuck off. No vanity sig just yet but it will come. From fisherm at tce.com Wed Sep 5 11:11:31 2001 From: fisherm at tce.com (Fisher Mark) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 13:11:31 -0500 Subject: Moral Crypto Message-ID: > Compare this with the original claim: "in a properly designed > anonymity > system the users will be, well, anonymous, and it should be impossible > to tell any more about them than that they pay their bills on time." > These examples illustrate the falsehood of this claim. Much more > is learned about the customers as they enter the anonymous system. But how do you know they've entered the anonymous system? If you are already being pursued by your antagonist, *and* you have been personally identified, then you have trouble you can't solve by any current software-based security technology. If you have not been personally identified, then your antagonist must either personally identify you or monitor all possible remailer network entrances. Monitoring all remailer network entrances can be done, but it is not for the weak of wallet. Even large governments do not have unlimited resources -- they must pick and choose their targets, rather than trying to go after everyone. The Soviet government and its puppet states encouraged people to turn each other in just so they didn't have to pay for 50% of the population to watch the other 50%. Large resources != infinite resources. =============================================== Mark Leighton Fisher fisherm at tce.com Thomson multimedia, Inc. Indianapolis IN The Illuminati are not dead -- they're just pining for the fnords... From fisherm at tce.com Wed Sep 5 11:21:03 2001 From: fisherm at tce.com (Fisher Mark) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 13:21:03 -0500 Subject: Moral Crypto Message-ID: > Killing remailers will be a by-product of regulating the net. Regulating the net to this extent would be a huge undertaking. Trying to regulate dead-tree publishers to this level would be a large undertaking, a task not likely to be accomplished without a lot of debate in Congress -- and there are many fewer dead-tree publishers than net publishers. The only way this could be done would be to attack at the large ISP level, which then brings up First Amendment issues along with common carrier issues. It could be done, but it would likely take a covert operation so large that: * It could only be funded by a government or other large body; and * Which would likely come to light relatively quickly ("three can keep a secret, if two are dead"). (Covert operation in the sense of staging many events that use the net in the process of harming people, as in using remailers for staging terrorist-like attacks for the express purpose of scaring the American public into abrogating their First Amendments rights unilaterally on the net.) =============================================== Mark Leighton Fisher fisherm at tce.com Thomson multimedia, Inc. Indianapolis IN The Illuminati are not dead -- they're just pining for the fnords... From pzakas at toucancapital.com Wed Sep 5 10:26:50 2001 From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip H. Zakas) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 13:26:50 -0400 Subject: Official Anonymizing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > A. Melon writes: > John Young takes a courageous stand: > > > I propose that all anonymizers adopt a code of practice that > > any sale to officials of anonymizers or their use be disclosed > > to the public (I suggested this to ZKS early on when first > > meetings with the feds to explain the technology were being > > sometimes disclosed). That seems to be a reasonable response > > to officially-secret prowling and investigating cyberspace. > > Absolutely appropriate, given cypherpunk goals. It may be difficult > to apply in every case but the intention is laudable. > > Here is an example of the principle put into practice, from the > anonymous web proxy service at http://proxy.magusnet.com/proxy.html: > > : If you are accessing this proxy from a *.mil or *.gov address > : it will not work. Given the amount of federal research conducted at the poles you might end up blocking santa claus (which would piss him and his gang of elves off.) It's impossible to determine the ultimate end-user. For example, what if a university performs secure computing research via a federal grant or directly for an agency? Are you going to block *.edu? What if an agency/contractor/employee/grantee uses comcast business internet access? Or speakeasy sdsl service? What about using a qwest cybercenter and peering with dozens of tier-one providers? are you going to block the ones that do business with the government? What about international carriers? Will you block Deutsche Telekom just because the german govt. uses DT? The world is too complex for simple rules such as the above regardless of the intent of the rules. phillip From stephanie.key at etransmail2.com Wed Sep 5 13:37:51 2001 From: stephanie.key at etransmail2.com (Stephanie Key) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 13:37:51 -0700 Subject: Product Give Away - Take 5 ! 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Designated trademarks and brands are the property of their respective owners. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 11472 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sfurlong at acmenet.net Wed Sep 5 10:43:39 2001 From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 13:43:39 -0400 Subject: Tim's Tips on Avoiding Prosecution Message-ID: <3B96644B.46CA8F5A@acmenet.net> Declan wrote: > ...I suspect that a "should be killed" line may be enough to garner > a conviction if you knew or should have known that folks would act on > what you say No, no, "he should be killed" is just shorthand for "he should be kill- filed". -- Steve Furlong Computer Condottiere Have GNU, Will Travel 617-670-3793 Don't sweat the petty things. But do pet the sweaty things. From jya at pipeline.com Wed Sep 5 13:55:00 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 13:55:00 -0700 Subject: Official Anonymizing In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010905100242.036c0750@pop3.norton.antivirus> References: Message-ID: <200109051802.OAA21707@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Let me jump in to say that I'm not advocating no access to anonymizers by officials only that that access be disclosed. It shouldn't be an embarrassment to reveal that federal agencies have bought such products. Disclosure as well of any features of the products sold to officials that are different from the standard product would be a big help in defending ourselves. Parity is all I'm asking for to combat the current disparity in features, as shit-marketers brag of their invasive products, "available only to law enforcement, letterhead needed." A pipe dream, maybe, but smart marketers have been known to respond to those as well as threats and sweetheart contracts. You ever see a DoD order for 40,000 copies of a program? That board of directors/Wall Street ecstacy is resistable only by cascading orders from the mass market. Here, I'm sympathetic to ZKS on how hard it is to compete with those who bear-hug government contracting officers as commanded by bankrollers everready to yank the plug. Nice story in the New York Times today about this, the second part of a three-parter on privacy issues of the Internet. To go with congressional hearings on it. From tcmay at got.net Wed Sep 5 14:09:11 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 14:09:11 -0700 Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: <3B96728C.27ED7437@lsil.com> Message-ID: <200109052112.f85LC7f07837@slack.lne.com> On Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 11:44 AM, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: > Well, I'm not totally retarded but I still don't always follow JYA that > well. I'll keep trying. > > Did the OH guy have a lawyer? If so, did he follow the advice he was > given? > > While I would not myself send the guy to prison for his writings however > goofy or sick I may find them, a person who writes this stuff runs a > serious risk of my interpreting even the slightest action on his part as > intent and of getting himself gutted in the spot. > > The thoughts color the interpretation of the actions. > > Mike > Sorry, Mike, but you're way too fixated on this "thought + actions" rut you've fallen into. The guy in Ohio was not busted because of some "intent" charge, but because the possession of those writings alone. Several articles a few months back... --Tim May From adam at homeport.org Wed Sep 5 11:10:38 2001 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 14:10:38 -0400 Subject: Official Anonymizing In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010905100242.036c0750@pop3.norton.antivirus> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20010905100242.036c0750@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <20010905141037.A13855@weathership.homeport.org> On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 10:12:25AM -0700, Greg Broiles wrote: | I don't think this question is as easy as it sounds at first. I do. Privacy is a good, and should be available to all. Adam -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From a3495 at cotse.com Wed Sep 5 11:37:21 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 14:37:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Official Anonymizing Message-ID: Greg wrote At 04:33 PM 9/4/2001 -0700, John Young wrote: >Look, I'll accept that we will all succumb to the power of the market, >so limit my proposal for full disclosure to those over 30. After that >age one should know there is no way to be truly open-minded. >And, in the spirit of full disclosure, I'll mention that at C2Net we did >sell our software to the government/intelligence agencies who wanted it - >they paid the same prices as any other customers, signed the same sales >contracts (we'd negotiate some on warranty terms for big purchases), and >otherwise got what everyone else got - not more, not less. Your honesty is admirable--and unlike certain other cases, I don't have any real reason to doubt what you say. But are you sure you have adequate security and counter-economic espionage measures in place? Have you had anyone do penetration testing lately? How much do you trust the people you work with? Wish I had a nickel for every time some young (or not-so-young)turk at a security conference or elsewhere started blabbing about things they shouldn't have out of nothing more than a desire to seem big and impress me. Feds and hackers alike, same old song and dance. I never even try to elicit information, either: I don't know, maybe it's some kind of sexist thing to assume a sweet-faced polite young woman could ever be a security threat. The sick thing is, if I were really evil I could have made a lot more than a nickel... Depressing. Wake up and shut up, dumbasses. Back to the insider problem: It's not exclusively a moral issue--whether you think you have more to fear from Uncle Sam, China, or the competitor down the street, everyone can agree that employees who sell out your technology to those out to compromise it are bad news. And frankly, the very people who wouldn't deal with China in a million years might be the ones most willing to listen to agents peddling the old "in the interests of national security" line. And whereas government agencies have always had a strong "culture of paranoia" that at least gets the issues on the table, private companies are at a disadvantage because they never even saw it coming. With a lot of young tech companies having spent the last few years feeling fat, happy, and oh-so-much smarter than those fusty old feds, you've got a potentially massive disaster in the making. Oh well, here's hoping you never get stung by the insider problem personally. ~Faustine. 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You should compare the number of meatspace publishers and their political clout to the number of anonymous remailer operators and their political clout. -Declan On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 01:21:03PM -0500, Fisher Mark wrote: > > Killing remailers will be a by-product of regulating the net. > > Regulating the net to this extent would be a huge undertaking. Trying to > regulate dead-tree publishers to this level would be a large undertaking, a > task not likely to be accomplished without a lot of debate in Congress -- > and there are many fewer dead-tree publishers than net publishers. > > The only way this could be done would be to attack at the large ISP level, > which then brings up First Amendment issues along with common carrier > issues. It could be done, but it would likely take a covert operation so > large that: > * It could only be funded by a government or other large body; and > * Which would likely come to light relatively quickly ("three can keep a > secret, if two are dead"). > > (Covert operation in the sense of staging many events that use the net in > the process of harming people, as in using remailers for staging > terrorist-like attacks for the express purpose of scaring the American > public into abrogating their First Amendments rights unilaterally on the > net.) > =============================================== > Mark Leighton Fisher fisherm at tce.com > Thomson multimedia, Inc. Indianapolis IN > The Illuminati are not dead -- > they're just pining for the fnords... From ravage at ssz.com Wed Sep 5 13:49:35 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 15:49:35 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Official Anonymizing In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010904145248.025a7030@mail.well.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > It seems to me that John is taking the first steps toward a general > argument: That police should not be allowed to do undercover work. His > argument, taken to its logical conclusion, would prevent police from > infiltrating criminal organizations in meatspace (let's assume, for the > moment, that we're talking about serious criminal acts against property and > person, not victimless crimes). See Japan. They have some interesting features built into their WWII constitution limiting some police behaviour. Such a view, perhaps to a less extreme degree, is not without precedence or merit. -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Sep 5 13:59:10 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 15:59:10 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Official Anonymizing In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010904171424.03746e60@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Greg Broiles wrote: > I think this goes a little too far (though I'm also pretty skeptical about > the underlying proposal). True, it's very unlikely that cops will arrest > themselves for violating a mandatory disclosure law - expecting any group > to reliably self-police is unrealistic. Speak for your self. The question isn't self-policing. The question is that one person is making decisions for another. Clearly less than optimal if you have any belief in 'free market' (which is a perfect example of self-policing behaviour; where does the stability come from?). Who'd know? Who'd care? No, the observation is that people are strange. Not some people, not those people, not weird people. People are strange. Any(!!!) time that one party is put in a position of authority over a second party, a third party must be included. That third party must be uninvolved with both parties and the market. That party must operate by socially accepted (eg voting) rules that apply to ALL members of the community equally. That third party MUST(!!!) report to the public at large. The public at large have a right to know how they can expect to be treated, and change it if it doesn't work to their satisfaction (which after all is the 'community' the law is supposed to be respecting in a democracy). Any society that violates this basic theme will be abusive. -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Sep 5 14:01:55 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 16:01:55 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Moral Crypto isn't wuss-ninnie. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Aimee Farr wrote: > It is not wuss-ninnie to spark debate, or to examine characterizations and > motives. Many say, "technology is neutral." It's not. Technology is > CONTEXTUAL. Ah, another convert. See, "The message is the medium" isn't right after all...it takes message, medium, context. I hope Marshall's spinnin' in his grave ;) -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Sep 5 14:17:34 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 16:17:34 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: <200109042301.XAA20853@hey.fuh-q.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Eric Cordian wrote: > Not unsurprisingly, the judge has refused to permit a man sentenced to 10 > years in prison for textual depictions of child sex in a private journal > to withdraw his guilty plea and get a trial. > > As F. Lee Bailey once said, the major flaw in the American justice system > is that appeals focus only on procedural errors, and ones guilt or > innocence is never again an issue after the original trial, even if that > trial reached the wrong result. I hear the flapping of angels wings... Only the jury can decide what is right/wrong. Only 'the poeple' have that right in this country under the Constitution. All criminal proceedings should be jury trials. Period, no exceptions. The moral obligations outweigh the increased cost of operations (lack of moral recognition is another lack of C-A-C-L theory). Once the jury decides then it should be final. Note the first sentence in Amendment 7...'preserved'... Amendment V No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation. Amendment VI In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence. Amendment VII In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law. -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From a3495 at cotse.com Wed Sep 5 13:19:10 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 16:19:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Official Anonymizing Message-ID: Some poor simple soul behind a remailer wrote: >Here is an example of the principle put into practice, from the >anonymous web proxy service at http://proxy.magusnet.com/proxy.html: : If you are accessing this proxy from a *.mil or *.gov address : it will not work. As a taxpaying United States Citizen[TM], : Business Owner, and Desert Storm Veteran, I do not want my : tax dollars being used by agencies I pay for to gawk(1) : at WWW pages and hide your origination point at my expense. : Now, get back to work! Patronizing claptrap, you wouldn't be blocking a thing. For example, the Google Archives has dozens of listings of a NSA researcher who openly participates in technical conferences, giving his full Ft. Meade address, office phone number--and AOL e-mail address. Before you dismiss this as just something another dumb fed might do, you might find it relevant that he's done a lot of work in IDS, GII security, reliable distributed systems, and deception. Who would ever expect anything interesting from an AOL user? That's precisely the point. That ought to be enough keywords: go dig for it yourself, and if you're really lucky, you'll find PDFs of his papers and start learning a little bit about why you haven't quite got the feds as outsmarted as you think you do. ~Faustine. From ravage at ssz.com Wed Sep 5 14:39:45 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 16:39:45 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Moral Crypto In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Sep 2001, Fisher Mark wrote: > But how do you know they've entered the anonymous system? If you are > already being pursued by your antagonist, *and* you have been personally > identified, then you have trouble you can't solve by any current > software-based security technology. Bingo! The primary(!) distinction of current technology is to increase revelation effort. To find... If they're already on to you then it's too damn late to be hiding. You should either give up or run like hell. -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ericm at lne.com Wed Sep 5 17:08:03 2001 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 17:08:03 -0700 Subject: Melon traffickers --> Soul traffickers In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010905170840.02039d70@mail.well.com>; from declan@well.com on Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 05:26:43PM -0400 References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010904191520.02172770@mail.well.com> <200109050020.f850KUf01686@slack.lne.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20010905170840.02039d70@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <20010905170803.A8479@slack.lne.com> On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 05:26:43PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: > [I'm not saying I believe these arguments, of course.] > > At 05:17 PM 9/4/01 -0700, Tim May wrote: > >And let me play Devil's Advocate to this DA position: > > > >Not to sound overly Choatian, but there is nothing in the First Amendment > >which says anything about government getting to decide when "enough" > >editorial processing has occurred so that First Amendment protections kick in. > > > >A publisher who published a publication consisting of _all submissions_ > >would still be protected, even if he exercised _zero_ editorial > >discretion. In fact, such things exist: they are called "vanity presses." > >They publish for a fee, no differently than a paid remailer publishes for > >a fee. > > The flaw in your analogy is that there is human selection involved in even > a vanity press. The publisher will weigh, among other factors, whether the > work is libelous, whether it contains any trade secrets or other > potentially illegal items that could get him in trouble, whether the work > is too controversial ("The Misunderstood Hitler") to publish, whether the > writer will pay on time, consult with the writer over fonts, cover art, and > so on. > > Since a remailer, on the other hand does not exercise any independent > editorial judgment about the content of the work, the burden should > properly be on you to argue that a law restricting it is unconstitutional. This was discussed long ago on cypherpunks, in fact the cyphernomicon says: 8.9.7. Possible legal steps to limit the use of remailers and anonymous systems - hold the remailer liable for content, i.e., no common carrier status - insert provisions into the various "anti-hacking" laws to criminalize anonymous posts (all of 8.9 is worth re-reading for this discussion). Tim, do you really mean to say that you now think that a remailer is a publisher, not a common carrier? Maybe I lost track in all the devil's advocate indirection... I think that being a publisher, while it gives many rights, is not nearly as good as being a common carrier. My understanding of "common carrrier" in this context is that the common carrier is not held responsible at all for the traffic that it carries. It can lose its common carrier status by editing-- then it's acting like a publisher, and is responsible for the material that it edits and publishes... "Prodigy was found liable for defamation as a publisher of a defamatory statement that had been posted on its bulletin board by an unknown user. The basis of Prodigy's liability was that it was using software to monitor and delete "offensive" messages and those in "bad taste." " (http://www.radiation.com/ideas/liability/) (follow the links inthat article to find that teh CDA gives some safe harbor for "provider or user of an interactive computer service" for editing content to get rid of obscene, etc. material.) I'm not up on the current state of this. Is it no longer possible to consider a remailer (or an ISP or BBS) a common carrier and thus "publisher" is the best to hope for? Or is it that "publisher", while carrying fewer rights, is much less likely to be held invalid? Eric From declan at well.com Wed Sep 5 14:26:43 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 17:26:43 -0400 Subject: Melon traffickers --> Soul traffickers In-Reply-To: <200109050020.f850KUf01686@slack.lne.com> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010904191520.02172770@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010905170840.02039d70@mail.well.com> [I'm not saying I believe these arguments, of course.] At 05:17 PM 9/4/01 -0700, Tim May wrote: >And let me play Devil's Advocate to this DA position: > >Not to sound overly Choatian, but there is nothing in the First Amendment >which says anything about government getting to decide when "enough" >editorial processing has occurred so that First Amendment protections kick in. > >A publisher who published a publication consisting of _all submissions_ >would still be protected, even if he exercised _zero_ editorial >discretion. In fact, such things exist: they are called "vanity presses." >They publish for a fee, no differently than a paid remailer publishes for >a fee. The flaw in your analogy is that there is human selection involved in even a vanity press. The publisher will weigh, among other factors, whether the work is libelous, whether it contains any trade secrets or other potentially illegal items that could get him in trouble, whether the work is too controversial ("The Misunderstood Hitler") to publish, whether the writer will pay on time, consult with the writer over fonts, cover art, and so on. Since a remailer, on the other hand does not exercise any independent editorial judgment about the content of the work, the burden should properly be on you to argue that a law restricting it is unconstitutional. A better analogy: Remailers are like a robotic Mailboxes Etc.-type service that opens a FedEx envelope and forwards the extracted contents to you at another address via FedEx. The robot arm, like a remailer, does not consider the content of the communication and acts like any other machine. Since this robot-mailer is by its very nature implicating interstate commerce and serves a compelling state interest of the highest order, the law is presumptively constitutional. >(By they way, publishers of anonymous letters are not required to "know >their customers." Ditto for collectors of anonymous suggestions, radio >talk show > hosts accepting calls from anonymous dialers, etc. These publishers and > radio talk show hosts do _not_ have to "justify" their failure to collect > taceability information, nor do they have to meet any threshold test for how But I know of no publisher who would publish a truly anonymous letter. Newspapers and magazine request truenames. If given someone's truename, a publisher may anonymize the letter, but a subpoena or other legal means should be able to extract the information after the fact. Also, publishers are legally liable for what they print, so they make content-based judgments about its quality -- again, unlike your remailer analogy. I'm not as familiar with the rules governing radio, but I suspect that radio hosts are liable for slander and so on if they keep a defamation-spewing guest on the line. Your argument proves too much: Do you really want remailers to be treated the same way -- and held liable for what people say through them? >If the government demands that remailer shut down, or somehow obtain >meatspace identities, confessionals and anonymous pschiatric/sex hotlines >will presumably also be shut down. To the contrary, a smart staffer can write legislation that only applies to remailers. I'll leave the details to my hypothetical legislative counsel, but identity-escrow-for-12-hour restrictions could apply only to "a computer hardware and/or software device that receives an electronic mail message sent through SMTP or a similar protocol, decodes the contents through its private key, and forwards the decoded contents to a recipient." Adjust as broadly or narrowly as you like. -Declan From tcmay at got.net Wed Sep 5 17:38:16 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 17:38:16 -0700 Subject: Melon traffickers --> Soul traffickers In-Reply-To: <20010905170803.A8479@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: <200109060041.f860fcf08858@slack.lne.com> On Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 05:08 PM, Eric Murray wrote: > > This was discussed long ago on cypherpunks, in fact the cyphernomicon > says: > > 8.9.7. Possible legal steps to limit the use of remailers and > anonymous systems > - hold the remailer liable for content, i.e., no common > carrier status > - insert provisions into the various "anti-hacking" laws to > criminalize anonymous posts > > (all of 8.9 is worth re-reading for this discussion). > Thanks. I try not to quote my own ancient writings, but it's clear that a lot of the posters of the past couple of years are not familiar with the older writings (which is sort of excusable...) and have not thought deeply about the issues (which is not). > Tim, do you really mean to say that you now think that a remailer > is a publisher, not a common carrier? Maybe I lost track in all > the devil's advocate indirection... I take no position one way or another. But "common carrier" status is not something that is automatically achieved. The telephone companies got it, to prevent phone companies from being shut down or from listening in on conversations. I'm not an expert in the history of "common carrier" legislation. (It may be described in Ithiel de sola Pool's seminal history of the telephone and liberty, though.) My point was the claim some are making that government may "license all remailers" seems unlikely. I often talk about "re-commenters" (hyphen added to emphasize the "commenter" part). If I get mail, or letters, or e-mail, and then pass it along to my friends or others, WHERE IN THE FIRST does it say I need permission from government? Imagine someone sent to prison for the crime of passing along messages he received. > I think that being a publisher, while it gives many rights, is not > nearly > as good as being a common carrier. My understanding of "common > carrrier" > in this context is that the common carrier is not held responsible > at all for the traffic that it carries. It can lose its common > carrier status by editing-- then it's acting like a publisher, and > is responsible for the material that it edits and publishes... There may be an item in the Cyphernomicon about this misconception, that common carrier status is something people apply for. It used to be claimed by some (don't here it as much anymore) than even bookstores could be treated as common carriers "so long as they didn't screen the books they sold." > (follow the links inthat article to find that teh CDA gives some > safe harbor for "provider or user of an interactive computer > service" for editing content to get rid of obscene, etc. material.) The CDA did indeed give safe harbor...but what the CDA giveth, CDA II or the Children's Protection Act can taketh away. > > > I'm not up on the current state of this. > Is it no longer possible to consider a remailer (or an ISP or > BBS) a common carrier and thus "publisher" is the best to hope for? > Or is it that "publisher", while carrying fewer rights, is much > less likely to be held invalid? No significant precedents in this area that I have ever heard of. --Tim May From jennifer at ESCRIPTIONS.ROI1.NET Wed Sep 5 14:58:38 2001 From: jennifer at ESCRIPTIONS.ROI1.NET (Jennifer Lyons) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 17:58:38 -0400 Subject: Get your free credit card! Message-ID: <200109052159.f85Lx5B28841@ak47.algebra.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1799 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jennifer at ESCRIPTIONS.ROI1.NET Wed Sep 5 14:58:38 2001 From: jennifer at ESCRIPTIONS.ROI1.NET (Jennifer Lyons) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 17:58:38 -0400 Subject: Get your free credit card! Message-ID: <200109052206.PAA18646@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1799 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nobody at dizum.com Wed Sep 5 09:00:38 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 18:00:38 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change Message-ID: <80b06661b7b71fb443ebb8c73a1c1028@dizum.com> J.A. Terranson writes: > This is the case I had in mind when I made my recent assertion that > thought==action in today's "court". How can anyone see this case, and not > conclude otherwise? This dude is going to spend a long time in stir, for > a *pure Thought Crime*. Gee, maybe he shouldn't have pleaded GUILTY then. How can you say that this proves that thought==action when the issue wasn't decided at trial? > On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Eric Cordian wrote: > > > Not unsurprisingly, the judge has refused to permit a man sentenced to 10 > > years in prison for textual depictions of child sex in a private journal > > to withdraw his guilty plea and get a trial. From juicy at melontraffickers.com Wed Sep 5 18:06:29 2001 From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 18:06:29 -0700 Subject: Melon traffickers --> Soul traffickers Message-ID: <1a4b12e37e6b8628b0debd940979945c@melontraffickers.com> Tim May writes: > I often talk about "re-commenters" (hyphen added to emphasize the > "commenter" part). If I get mail, or letters, or e-mail, and then pass > it along to my friends or others, WHERE IN THE FIRST does it say I need > permission from government? You're absolutely right, no law could stop you from being a re-commenter. However, you would be liable for everything you said. This would mean that you pay the penalty for any illegal message, any obscenity, any violation of copyright. In short being a re-commenter buys you absolutely nothing. Any message so innocuous that it could be delivered by a re-commenter (like this one, for example) does not really need anonymity. From abhi at golhar.inbox.as Wed Sep 5 19:07:29 2001 From: abhi at golhar.inbox.as (Hello...Superb) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 19:07:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hello...superb Message-ID: <419.437139.93981771abhi@golhar.inbox.as> Dear Friend, As a technical person and a natural skeptic my initial impulse was to treat the following message as one more piece of overblown, overhyped bulk mail whose fate is to be rapidly dispatched to the infinite void. Something however made me read on and then print out a copy of this message. I urge you to find 5 minutes to review it. If you don't have time, print it out and review it later! You won't be sorry. A major nightly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of the program described below to see if it can really make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved that there are absolutely no laws prohibiting the participation in the program. This has helped to show people that this is a simple, harmless and fun way to make some extra money at home. The results have been truly remark- able. So many people are participating that those involved are doing much better than ever before. Since everyone makes more as more people try it out, it's been very exciting. You will understand once you try it yourself! If you would like to make at least $50,000 in less than 90 days! Please read this program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!! THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY!! It does NOT require you to come into contact with people or make or take any telephone calls. Just follow the instructions, and you will make money. This simplified e-mail marketing program works perfectly 100% EVERY TIME! E-mail is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of this virtually free method of advertising NOW!!! The longer you wait, the more people will be doing business using email. Get your piece of this action!!! ~~~~~ HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU THOUSANDS OF DOLLAR$$$$!!!! This method of raising capital REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME. I am sure that you could use up to $50,000 or more in the next 90 days. Before you say, "BULL... " please read this program carefully. This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making business. As with all multi-level businesses, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products. Every state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-level business partners, and we sell and deliver a product for EVERY dollar received. YOUR ORDERS COME BY MAIL AND ARE FILLED BY E- MAIL, so you are not involved in personal selling. You do it privately in your own home, store or office. This is the EASIEST marketing plan anywhere! It is simply order filling by email! *************************************************************** The product is informational and instructional material containing the secrets on how to open the doors to the magic world of E-COMMERCE , the information highway, the wave of the future! PLAN SUMMARY: (1) You order the 4 reports listed below ($5 each) which come to you by email. (2) Save a copy of this entire letter and put your name after Report #1 and move the other names down. (3) Access Yahoo.com or any of the other major search engines to locate hundreds of bulk email service companies (search for "bulk email") and have them send 1 million+ email addresses to you. Or advertise in a different way such as auctions or free ads. (4) Orders will come to you by postal mail - simply email them the report they ordered. Let me ask you - isn't this about as easy as it gets? *************************************************************** By the way there are over 50 MILLION email addresses with millions more joining the internet each year so don't worry about "running out" or "saturation". People are used to seeing and hearing the same advertisements every day on radio/TV. How many times have you received the same pizza flyers on your door? Then one day you are hungry for pizza and you order one. Same thing with this letter. I received this letter many times - then one day I decided it was time to try it. *************************************************************** YOU CAN START TODAY - JUST DO THESE EASY STEPS: STEP #1: ORDER THE FOUR REPORTS: Order the four reports shown on the list below (you can't sell them if you don't order them). -- For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, and YOUR NAME & RETURN ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to the person whose name appears on the list next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE IN CASE OF ANY MAIL PROBLEMS! Within a few days you will receive, by e-mail, each of the four reports. Save them on your computer so you can send them to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. STEP #2: ADD YOUR MAILING ADDRESS TO THIS LETTER. a. Look below for the listing of the four reports. b. After you've ordered the four reports, delete the name and address under REPORT #4. This person has made it through the cycle. c. Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to REPORT #4. d. Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3. e. Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to REPORT #2. f. Insert your name/address in the REPORT #1 position. Please make sure you COPY ALL INFORMATION, every name and address, ACCURATELY! STEP #3: Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and save it to your computer. Make NO changes to these instructions. Now you are ready to use this entire email to send by email to prospects. Report #1 will tell you how to download bulk email software and email addresses so you can send it out to thousands of people while you sleep! Remember that 50,000+ new people are joining the Internet every month. Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can afford $20 and initial bulk mailing cost). You obviously already have a computer and an Internet connection and e-mail is FREE! There are two primary methods of building your down- line: METHOD #1: SENDING BULK E-MAIL Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we'll assume you and all those involved email out only 2,000 programs each. Let's also assume that the mailing receives a 0.5% response. The response could be much better. Also, many people will email out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000 (Why stop at 2000?). But continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs. With a 0.5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1. Those 10 people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000. Out of those 0.5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2. Those 100 mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000. The 0.5% response to that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3. Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each for a 2,000,000 total. The 0.5% response to that is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4. That's 10,000 $5 bills for you. CASH!!! Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5,000 + $50,000 for a total of $55,550!!! REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF THE 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE, OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF 2,000. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! METHOD #2 - PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET Advertising on the Internet is very, very inexpensive, and there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise. Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it works. Assume your goal is to get ONLY 10 people to participate on your first level. (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the Internet will EASILY get a larger response.) Also assume that everyone else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 down- line members. Look how this small number accumulates to achieve the STAGGERING results below: 1st level-- your first 10 send you $5................................$50 2nd level--10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100)...$500 3rd level--10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000) ........$5,000 4th level--10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10,000) ..$50,000 $$$$$$ THIS TOTALS ----------$55,550 $$$$$$ AMAZING ISN'T IT? Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only recruit 10 people each. Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20 people to participate! Most people get 100's of participants and many will continue to work this program, sending out programs WITH YOUR NAME ON THEM for years! THINK ABOUT IT! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ People are going to get emails about this plan from you or somebody else and many will work this plan - the question is - Don't you want your name to be on the emails they will send out? * * * DON'T MISS OUT!!! * * * JUST TRY IT ONCE!!! * * *** SEE WHAT HAPPENS!!! *** ** YOU'LL BE AMAZED!!! ** ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS! This will guarantee that the e-mail THEY send out with YOUR name and address on it will be prompt because they can't advertise until they receive the report! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ GET STARTED TODAY: Place your order for the four reports now. ****Notes: -- ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH (U.S. CURRENCY) FOR EACH REPORT. CHECKS NOT ACCEPTED. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in two sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper write: (a) the number & name of the report you are ordering, (b) your e-mail address, and (c) your name & postal address. ***** REPORT #1 "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #1 FROM: A.D. Golhar 7600 Thrasher Ln. Kalamazoo, MI 49009 *****REPORT #2 "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk E- mail on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #2 FROM: Melissa Collier Rt. 4. Box 820, Jefferson, TX 75657 *****REPORT #3 "The Secrets to Multilevel Marketing on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #3 FROM: JOHN G. P.O. BOX 1161 WINONA, MN 55987-716 *****REPORT #4 "How to become a Millionaire Utilizing the Power of Multilevel Marketing and the Internet" ORDER REPORT #4 FROM: ENID U. P.O. BOX 353 FOUNTAIN CITY, WI 54629-0353 ******* TIPS FOR SUCCESS ******* TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS! Be prompt, professional, and follow the directions accurately. -- Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when the orders start coming in because: When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested product/report. It is required for this to be a legal business and they need the reports to send out their letters (with your name on them!) -- ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE. -- Be patient and persistent with this program - If you follow the instructions exactly - results WILL follow. $$$$ ******* YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES ******* Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: If you don't receive 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT#2. If you don't, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a DIFFERENT report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. To generate more income, simply send another batch of e-mails or continue placing ads and start the whole process again! There is no limit to the income you will generate from this business! Before you make your decision as to whether or not you participate in this program. Please answer one question. ARE YOU HAPPY WITH YOUR PRESENT INCOME OR JOB? If the answer is no, then please look at the following facts about this super simple MLM program: 1. NO face to face selling, NO meetings, NO inventory! NO Telephone calls, NO big cost to start! Nothing to learn, NO skills needed! (Surely you know how to send e- mail?) 2. No equipment to buy - you already have a computer and Internet connection - so you have everything you need to fill orders! 3. You are selling a product that does NOT COST ANYTHING TO PRODUCE OR SHIP! (E-mailing copies of the reports is FREE!) 4. All of your customers pay you in CA$H! This program will change your LIFE FOREVER!! Look at the potential for you to be able to quit your job and live a life of luxury you could only dream about! Imagine getting out of debt and buying the car and home of your dreams and being able to work a super- high paying leisurely easy business from home! $$ FINALLY MAKE SOME DREAMS COME TRUE! $$ ACT NOW! Take your first step toward achieving financial independence. Order the reports and follow the program outlined above- - SUCCESS will be your reward. Thank you for your time and consideration. *****PLEASE NOTE: If you need help with starting a business, registering a business name, learning how income tax is handled, etc., contact your local office of the Small Business Administration (a Federal Agency) 1-800-827-5722 for free help and answers to questions. Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via telephone and free seminars about business tax requirements. Your earnings are highly dependent on your activities and advertising. The information contained on this site and in the report constitutes no guarantees neither stated nor implied. In the event that it is determined that this site or report constitutes a guarantee of any kind, that guarantee is now void. The earnings amounts listed on this site and in the report are estimates only. If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection in Washington, DC. ============================================= Under Bill s.1618 TITLE III passed by the 105th US Congress this letter cannot be considered spam as long as the sender includes contact information and a method of removal. This is a one time e-mail transmission. No request for removal is *necessary*. Testimony:$$$$$Hello - My name is Johnathon Rourke; In mid December, I received this program in my e- mail. Six months prior to receiving this program I had been sending away for information on various business opportunities. All of the programs I received, in my opinion, were not cost effective. They were either too difficult for me to comprehend, or the initial investment was too much for me to risk to see if they would work. But as I was saying, in December I received this program. I didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing list. THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!! After reading it several times, to make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes! Here was a MONEY MAKING MACHINE!! I could start immediately without any debt. Like most of you I was still a little skeptical and a little worried about the legal aspects of it all. So I checked it out with the U.S. Post Office (1-800- 725-2161, 24-hrs.) and they confirmed that it is indeed legal! After determining that the program was LEGAL, I decided "WHY NOT?!?!" Initially I sent out 10,000 e-mails. It cost me about $15 for my time on-line. The great thing about e-mail is that I don't need any for printing to send out the program, and because I also send the product (reports) by e- mail, my only expense is my time. In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1. By January 13, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1. Your goal is to "RECEIVE at least 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN 2 WEEKS. IF YOU DON'T, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. My first step in making $50,000 in 90 days was done. By January 30, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2. Your goal is to "RECEIVE AT LEAST 100+ ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN 2 WEEKS. IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL." Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2. 96 more than I needed. So I sat back and relaxed. By March 1, of my e-mailing of 10,000, I received $58,000 with more coming in every day. I paid off ALL my debts and bought a much-needed new car! Please take your time to read this plan, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER$!!! Remember, it won't work if you don't try it. This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY, especially the rules of not trying to place your name in a different place. It won't work and you'll lose out on a lot of money! In order for this program to work, you must meet your goal of 20+ orders for REPORT #1, and 100+ orders for REPORT #2 and you will make $50,000 or more in 90 days. I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS!!! If you choose not to participate in this program, I am sorry. It really is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you. If you choose to participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to financial security. If you are a fellow business owner and are in financial trouble like I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a sign. I DID! $$ Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report to everyone you can think of. One of the people you send this to may send out 50,000... and your name will be on every one of them! Remember though, the more you send out, the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially independent. Sincerely, Johnathon Rourke Rhode Island $$$$$Before you delete this program from your in-box, as I almost did, take a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil and figure out what could happen when YOU participate. Figure out the worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will still make a lot of money! You will definitely get back what you invested. Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in. $$$ IT WORKS!!! $$$ Jody Jacobs Richmond, VA $$$$$Bid now or send $5.00 for report #1 as well as the other reports. Copy and paste this entire letter for your further use. From georgemw at speakeasy.net Wed Sep 5 19:11:45 2001 From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 19:11:45 -0700 Subject: Melon traffickers --> Soul traffickers In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010905170840.02039d70@mail.well.com> References: <200109050020.f850KUf01686@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: <3B9678F1.12293.266DFD64@localhost> On 5 Sep 2001, at 17:26, Declan McCullagh wrote: > [I'm not saying I believe these arguments, of course.] > Since a remailer, on the other hand does not exercise any independent > editorial judgment about the content of the work, the burden should > properly be on you to argue that a law restricting it is unconstitutional. > This is really crappy logic. Any law that restricts speech or the press is presumably unconstitutional. > A better analogy: Remailers are like a robotic Mailboxes Etc.-type service > that opens a FedEx envelope and forwards the extracted contents to you at > another address via FedEx. Actually it's a really crappy analogy. Arguing that "it's kind of like this hypothetical thing that doesn't exist and therefore ought to be treated as I imagine this hypothetical thing would probably be treated if it did exist" is an incredibly poor use of the device of analogy. > But I know of no publisher who would publish a truly anonymous letter. You're fucking kidding, right? Do you think "Ann Landers" and her ilk actually know the "true names" of all the morons who write in to her? > Newspapers and magazine request truenames. If given someone's truename, a > publisher may anonymize the letter, but a subpoena or other legal means > should be able to extract the information after the fact. That's funny, just a week or two ago you were saying any ethical person in the journalistic profession should be willing to go to jail rather than compromise the identity of his sources. Someone who writes in a ltter is precluded from being a "source"? George > > -Declan From wolf at priori.net Wed Sep 5 19:22:16 2001 From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 19:22:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Melon traffickers --> Soul traffickers Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Sep 2001, Tim May wrote: > There may be an item in the Cyphernomicon about this misconception, that > common carrier status is something people apply for. It used to be > claimed by some (don't here it as much anymore) than even bookstores > could be treated as common carriers "so long as they didn't screen the > books they sold." Interesting. So what does this mean for remailers that do screen content? At the very least, the mixmaster software comes with the ability for individuals to block themselves (or other people -- it's not authenticated) from receiving mail from the remailer. So, in effect, the remailer is screening mail for that recipient, and discarding it. (And there are, or have been, remailers that screen messages for "bad words." The messages are then dumped into a file for review.) How does this affect "common carrier" status? -MW- From wolf at priori.net Wed Sep 5 19:22:16 2001 From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 19:22:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Melon traffickers --> Soul traffickers Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Sep 2001, Tim May wrote: > There may be an item in the Cyphernomicon about this misconception, that > common carrier status is something people apply for. It used to be > claimed by some (don't here it as much anymore) than even bookstores > could be treated as common carriers "so long as they didn't screen the > books they sold." Interesting. So what does this mean for remailers that do screen content? At the very least, the mixmaster software comes with the ability for individuals to block themselves (or other people -- it's not authenticated) from receiving mail from the remailer. So, in effect, the remailer is screening mail for that recipient, and discarding it. (And there are, or have been, remailers that screen messages for "bad words." The messages are then dumped into a file for review.) How does this affect "common carrier" status? -MW- From gbroiles at well.com Wed Sep 5 19:22:42 2001 From: gbroiles at well.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 19:22:42 -0700 Subject: Common carriers In-Reply-To: <20010905170803.A8479@slack.lne.com> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010905170840.02039d70@mail.well.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20010904191520.02172770@mail.well.com> <200109050020.f850KUf01686@slack.lne.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20010905170840.02039d70@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010905185623.0372bec0@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 05:08 PM 9/5/2001 -0700, Eric Murray wrote: >Is it no longer possible to consider a remailer (or an ISP or >BBS) a common carrier and thus "publisher" is the best to hope for? >Or is it that "publisher", while carrying fewer rights, is much >less likely to be held invalid? The "common carrier" argument never went anywhere - it was a reasonable early effort to discuss the liability rules which might be appropriate for online services; but that's not the way that the law has developed, and it's no longer considered a reasonable line of thinking. Even traditional common carriers (like phone companies) aren't likely to fit the definition of "common carrier" when they're operating as ISP's or other online service providers - e.g., pacbell.com, the company which provides local phone service as an SBC subsidiary, is still a common carrier for many purposes - but pacbell.net, the company which provides DSL connectivity, Usenet news, email, and web hosting for residential and business customers, is *not* a common carrier as that term has traditionally been used. That arm of the business is likely considered an "enhanced service provider", in FCC and PUC-speak, and doesn't get the benefit (or the burden) of traditional common carrier rules. (Don't forget, common carriers usually have to publish rate schedules, stick to published rates for all subscribers, seek regulatory permission to change their rates, participate in administrative proceedings concerning their rates charged to customers and rates of return on capital, etc - it is absolutely not some magic badge of publisher freedom which one can assume and then wield as a shield against any form of regulation. It's more like a deal with the regulatory devil, whereby one gains some short-term exemptions in exchange for eternal obesiance to a byzantine regulatory apparatus with no hope of salvation.) Even "publisher" is relatively outdated - the relevant definitions and liability rules are found in the Communications Decency Act (it wasn't all struck down; see 47 USC 230) and the Digital Millenium Copyright Act (17 USC 512), if you're talking about liability for online service providers. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at well.com "We have found and closed the thing you watch us with." -- New Delhi street kids From ravage at ssz.com Wed Sep 5 17:23:30 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 19:23:30 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Remailers as Common Carriers Message-ID: Unfortunately this isn't the answer either. Common Carrier status brings with it a whole host of regulatory issues. A far stronger position is to stand on the 1st as a 'speech' and 'press' issue. That one you can win without ending up with a monkey on your back. -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Sep 5 17:25:52 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 19:25:52 -0500 Subject: Definition: common carrier Message-ID: <3B96C290.74A84912@ssz.com> http://www.its.bldrdoc.gov/fs-1037/dir-008/_1101.htm -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Sep 5 17:28:00 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 19:28:00 -0500 Subject: Law: Free Legal Information - Common Carrier Message-ID: <3B96C310.E53113EF@ssz.com> http://www.freeadvice.com/law/502us.htm -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From tcmay at got.net Wed Sep 5 19:43:56 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 19:43:56 -0700 Subject: Melon traffickers --> Soul traffickers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200109060254.VAA18220@einstein.ssz.com> On Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 07:22 PM, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote: > On Wed, 5 Sep 2001, Tim May wrote: > >> There may be an item in the Cyphernomicon about this misconception, >> that >> common carrier status is something people apply for. It used to be >> claimed by some (don't here it as much anymore) than even bookstores >> could be treated as common carriers "so long as they didn't screen the >> books they sold." > > > Interesting. > > So what does this mean for remailers that do screen content? At the very > least, the mixmaster software comes with the ability for individuals to > block themselves (or other people -- it's not authenticated) from > receiving mail from the remailer. > > So, in effect, the remailer is screening mail for that recipient, and > discarding it. > > (And there are, or have been, remailers that screen messages for "bad > words." The messages are then dumped into a file for review.) > > How does this affect "common carrier" status? See Greg Broiles' summary for a more accurate summary than I could do. But not all is lost. I still believe the First is a bright line: the First does not provide for government regulation of those who are not using "the public airwaves" (cough cough). Newspapers don't need to seek licenses of any kind, for example. (A so-called "business license," not that I'm supporting such things, is basically just a fee to operate a money-making business in some location. There is no discretion for allowing some newspaper and disallowing others, nor for "regulating" newspapers.) Any proposal to license those who use the Net will face a lot of First Amendment challenges. I don't think the high court would ultimately find any such regulations constitutional. --Tim May From tcmay at got.net Wed Sep 5 19:51:44 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 19:51:44 -0700 Subject: Melon traffickers --> Soul traffickers In-Reply-To: <1a4b12e37e6b8628b0debd940979945c@melontraffickers.com> Message-ID: <200109060255.f862tRf09436@slack.lne.com> On Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 06:06 PM, A. Melon wrote: > Tim May writes: >> I often talk about "re-commenters" (hyphen added to emphasize the >> "commenter" part). If I get mail, or letters, or e-mail, and then pass >> it along to my friends or others, WHERE IN THE FIRST does it say I need >> permission from government? > > You're absolutely right, no law could stop you from being a > re-commenter. > However, you would be liable for everything you said. This would mean > that you pay the penalty for any illegal message, any obscenity, any > violation of copyright. > > In short being a re-commenter buys you absolutely nothing. Any message > so innocuous that it could be delivered by a re-commenter (like this > one, > for example) does not really need anonymity. > Including this one?: Hey, Nomen, I just got this message. Any idea what it means? pQuusuSljjFEVQYWgG/YM+3V2K3+9lptlWVBr3axwLr3iHqmcDQzGEnTASI/k2oy WSkeNUb2W2nNREAe0DhRMPJ5n44RTk+HOH6TLUtxCyez1UaAvtu7kdGUgk9/zSLZ V/HXFANMv23abUS/VCBFSTQz2nLZC/BDy5KhkndAL/ugL9/eqgiPr3mMrWCBPXoi GdG78lSIrFAzo0Gw5pzUOj3NJiew1a+Sjp2iJCuIJbXxhxeYZMqUNU9ZxEVLHtV5 fpljlUtrUE+AZfIwFZeW3RIYSuc5hgo8Rv/qzapU8NSlBkT0NH6riKV2dx66RvvJ z44/EQrBX5FmbET4/YQKRQXaxgN0+e9ZXXwQg7B8y/b1RW4J9aslTOl8Emc6uokz SqKlB8ACdu/I6LczYB2LBMr7bUsh0ty1oWUsv8vEouNhEYEbkBZL3vdvrw6dBg8e hzFExtj9HgMvkVIE9E91CD0= =EYfM From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Sep 5 19:28:05 2001 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 21:28:05 -0500 Subject: AutoResp. Req-232B-Flatrate Message-ID: <200109060228.f862S5N08635@badboy.mach10hosting.com> Below is the result of your feedback form. It was submitted by () on Wednesday, September 5, 2001 at 21:28:05 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- message: Introducing The Newest Flatrate LongDistance Plan Along With A System To Make $5800 Per Month Using Our Unique System. http://www.geocities.com/new_flatrate_deals If you have problems with the site, email flatratefrenzy at yahoo.com Include your name, phone number, and best time to call or you will not receive a response back. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jim_windle at eudoramail.com Wed Sep 5 19:12:20 2001 From: jim_windle at eudoramail.com (Jim Windle) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 22:12:20 -0400 Subject: Melon traffickers --> Soul traffickers Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Sep 2001 17:38:16 Tim May wrote: > >On Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 05:08 PM, Eric Murray wrote: >> >> Tim, do you really mean to say that you now think that a remailer >> is a publisher, not a common carrier? Maybe I lost track in all >> the devil's advocate indirection... > >I take no position one way or another. But "common carrier" status is >not something that is automatically achieved. The telephone companies >got it, to prevent phone companies from being shut down or from >listening in on conversations. I'm not an expert in the history of >"common carrier" legislation. (It may be described in Ithiel de sola >Pool's seminal history of the telephone and liberty, though.) > I think "common carrier" status was orignally conceived to allow access by all to an asset which is a "natural monopoly". Thus the owner of the monopoly, in return for having it sanctioned by the government,is required to do business with all. He is not held liable for certain results because he is required to forego normal business judgement about with whom to do business. As remailers are not in any sense a "natural mononoply" the common carrier rational for not holding the remailer liable for the results of doing business with particular parties would not apply. Nor for that matter would the monopoly grounds for the government regulation of remailers exist. Though I supppose the government has expanded the concept of common carrier to expand its regulatory grasp I don't think it could be expanded so far as to include remailers, but I don't know current case law on this question. >My point was the claim some are making that government may "license all >remailers" seems unlikely. > Agreed, its hard to imagine a grounds for government regulation here that doesn't infringe on the first amendment. Of course when it comes to defining concepts from economics and law I defer to Faustine and Aimee. Unfortunately they seem, like cops, to never be around when you need them. Jim Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com From bill.stewart at pobox.com Wed Sep 5 22:28:03 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 22:28:03 -0700 Subject: Melon traffickers --> Soul traffickers In-Reply-To: <200109060255.f862tRf09436@slack.lne.com> References: <1a4b12e37e6b8628b0debd940979945c@melontraffickers.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010905222225.02f77aa0@idiom.com> I was shocked, *shocked* to receive the following disturbing message in my email! I've removed the headers because *surely* they must be from some forger trolling for hate mail directed by the outraged public to some innocent member of our community, for surely Nobody would put their own name on this kind of material. O, tempora! O, mores! ~~Request-Remailing-To: cypherpunks at lne.com > >> I often talk about "re-commenters" (hyphen added to emphasize the > >> "commenter" part). If I get mail, or letters, or e-mail, and then pass > >> it along to my friends or others, WHERE IN THE FIRST does it say I need > >> permission from government? > > > > You're absolutely right, no law could stop you from being a > > re-commenter. > > However, you would be liable for everything you said. This would mean > > that you pay the penalty for any illegal message, any obscenity, any > > violation of copyright. > > > > In short being a re-commenter buys you absolutely nothing. Any message > > so innocuous that it could be delivered by a re-commenter (like this > > one, > > for example) does not really need anonymity. > > > >Including this one?: > >Hey, Nomen, I just got this message. Any idea what it means? > >pQuusuSljjFEVQYWgG/YM+3V2K3+9lptlWVBr3axwLr3iHqmcDQzGEnTASI/k2oy >WSkeNUb2W2nNREAe0DhRMPJ5n44RTk+HOH6TLUtxCyez1UaAvtu7kdGUgk9/zSLZ >V/HXFANMv23abUS/VCBFSTQz2nLZC/BDy5KhkndAL/ugL9/eqgiPr3mMrWCBPXoi >GdG78lSIrFAzo0Gw5pzUOj3NJiew1a+Sjp2iJCuIJbXxhxeYZMqUNU9ZxEVLHtV5 >fpljlUtrUE+AZfIwFZeW3RIYSuc5hgo8Rv/qzapU8NSlBkT0NH6riKV2dx66RvvJ >z44/EQrBX5FmbET4/YQKRQXaxgN0+e9ZXXwQg7B8y/b1RW4J9aslTOl8Emc6uokz >SqKlB8ACdu/I6LczYB2LBMr7bUsh0ty1oWUsv8vEouNhEYEbkBZL3vdvrw6dBg8e >hzFExtj9HgMvkVIE9E91CD0= >=EYfM From hibbert at netcom.com Wed Sep 5 23:21:33 2001 From: hibbert at netcom.com (Chris Hibbert) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 23:21:33 -0700 Subject: LFS Press release: Prometheus Awards Message-ID: For immediate release: September, 2001 * Libertarian Futurist Society announced Prometheus Award winners Sept. 2 at the Philadelphia Worldcon * L. Neil Smith won Best Novel for "Forge of the Elders" At its annual Worldcon award ceremony Sept. 2 in Philadelphia, the Libertarian Futurist Society presented its annual Prometheus Award for Best Novel to L. Neil Smith's "Forge of the Elders" (Baen Books). The Prometheus Awards ceremony preceded a panel discussion on "Beyond Ayn Rand and Robert Heinlein: Libertarian SF." The panel was held from 4 to 5 p.m. Sunday Sept. 2 at the Pennsylvania Convention Center and Philadelphia Marriott in Philadelphia. L. Neil Smith has won the Prometheus Award twice before: in 1984 for The Probability Broach, and in 1994 for Pallas. Forge of the Elders combines two previously published novels with the story's finale, finally published a decade later. The story concerns the culture clash between the human members of an expedition to asteroid 5023 Eris, and the multitude of aliens they find when they arrive. The twist is that the aliens are anarchist individualists with a sophisticated culture, while the humans were sent by a monolithic socialist/communist world government. The culture clash results in a few mysterious deaths, and the investigation of the possible murders reveals much about the motivations of the perpetrators and suspects. The other finalists in the voting for the 2001 Prometheus Award were: * Lodestar, by Michael Flynn (TOR Books) * The Sky Road, by Ken MacLeod (TOR Books) * The Truth, by Terry Pratchett (HarperCollins) * Eagle Against the Stars, by Steve White (Baen Books) Twelve novels were nominated by LFS members for this year's awards. The other nominees were Candle, by John Barnes (TOR Books); The Legend That Was Earth, by James Hogan (Baen Books); Outlaw School, by Rebecca Ore (HarperCollins/EOS); Chimera, by Will Shetterly (TOR Books); Vampire Nation, by Thomas Sipos (www.communistvampires.com); Conspiracies, by F. Paul Wilson (Forge Books); and All the Rage, by F. Paul Wilson (FORGE Books) The 2001 winner of the Hall of Fame award for Best Classic Fiction was "The Survival of Freedom", an sf anthology edited by Jerry Pournelle and John Carr. Pournelle shared the prometheus award in 1992 with Larry Niven for Fallen Angels. The LFS' first Special Prometheus Award for Lifetime Achievement went to Poul Anderson. Both of these awards were presented at LFScon, the Libertarian Futurist Society's first national conference and 20th anniversary celebration, held May 25-27 in conjunction with Marcon 36 in Columbus, Ohio. The audience of more than 1,000 people were treated to the Awards ceremony as part of the Masquerade festivities. Karen Anderson, Poul's wife and a guest of honor, accepted for Anderson, whose illness had prevented him from attending LFScon as Marcon's Grand Master guest of honor. Anderson, widely respected as a Grand Master of S.F., already had been recognized by the LFS three times over the past two decades, having won the Prometheus Hall of Fame twice for "The Star Fox" and "Trader to the Stars" and the Best Novel award for "The Stars Are Also Fire" (1995). Poul Anderson passed away July 31, 2001 at the age of 74. The Prometheus awards for Best Novel, Best Classic Fiction (Hall of Fame) and (occasional) Special awards honor outstanding science fiction/fantasy that explores the possibilities of a free future, champions human rights (including personal and economic liberty), dramatizes the perennial conflict between individuals and coercive governments, or critiques the tragic consequences of abuse of power-- especially by the State. The Prometheus Award, sponsored by the Libertarian Futurist Society (LFS), was established in 1979, making it one of the most enduring awards after the Nebula and Hugo awards, and one of the oldest fan-based awards currently in sf. Presented annually since 1982 at the World Science Fiction Convention, the Prometheus Awards include a gold coin and plaque for the winners. The Hall of Fame, established in 1983, focuses on older classic fiction, including novels, novellas, short stories, poems and plays. Past Hall of Fame award winners range from Robert Heinlein and Ayn Rand to Ray Bradbury and Ursula LeGuin. Publishers who wish to submit 2002 novels for consideration should contact Michael Grossberg (614-236-5040, mikegrossb at aol.com, 3164 Plymouth Place, Columbus OH 43213), Chair of the LFS Prometheus Awards Best Novel Finalist judging committee. Prometheus Award and Hall of Fame winners Founded in 1982, the Libertarian Futurist Society sponsors the annual Prometheus Award and Prometheus Hall of Fame; publishes reviews, news and columns in the quarterly "Prometheus"; arranges annual awards ceremonies at the Worldcon, debates libertarian futurist issues (such as private space exploration); and provides fun and fellowship for libertarian-SF fans. Here are the past winners of LFS Awards Prometheus Award winners Wheels Within Wheels, by F. Paul Wilson (1979) The Probability Broach, by L. Neil Smith (1982) Voyage From Yesteryear, by James Hogan (1983) The Rainbow Cadenza, by J. Neil Schulman (1984) Cybernetic Samurai, by Victor Milan (1986) Marooned in Real Time, by Vernor Vinge (1987) The Jehovah Contract, by Victor Koman (1988) Moon of Ice, by Brad Linaweaver (1989) Solomon's Knife, by Victor Koman (1990 In the Country of the Blind, by Michael Flynn (1991) Fallen Angels, by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle (1992) The Multiplex Man, by James Hogan (1993) Pallas, by L. Neil Smith (1994) The Stars Are Also Fire, by Poul Anderson (1995) The Star Fraction, by Ken MacLeod (1996) Kings of the High Frontier, by Victor Koman (1997) The Stone Canal, by Ken MacLeod (1998) The Golden Globe, by John Varley (Berkley/Ace) (1999) A Deepness in the Sky, by Vernor Vinge (TOR Books) (2000) The Forge of the Elders, by L. Neil Smith (Baen Books) (2001) * None of the Above won in 1985, and no awards were given in 1980 and 1981. Prometheus Hall of Fame winners Robert Heinlein's The Moon is a Harsh Mistress (1983) Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged (1983) George Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four (1984) Ray Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451 (1984) Poul Anderson's Trader to the Stars (1985) Eric Frank Russell's The Great Explosion (1985) C.M. Kornbluth's The Syndic, (1986) Robert Shea and Robert Anton Wilson's Illuminatus trilogy. (1986) Robert Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land (1987) Ayn Rand's Anthem (1987) Alfred Bester's The Stars My Destination (1988) J. Neil Schulman's Alongside Night (1989) F. Paul Wilson's Healer (1990) F. Paul Wilson's An Enemy of the State (1991) Ira Levin's This Perfect Day (1992) Ursula LeGuin's The Dispossessed (1993) Yevgeni Zamiatin's We (1994) Poul Anderson's The Star Fox (1995) Robert Heinlein's The Red Planet (1996) Robert Heinlein's Methuselah's Children (1997) Robert Heinlein's Time Enough for Love (1998) H. Beam Piper and John McGuire's A Planet for Texans (Also published as "Lone Star Planet") (1999) Hans Christian Andersen's The Emperor's New Clothes (2000) The Survival of Freedom, edited by Jerry Pournelle and John F. Carr (2001) SPECIAL AWARDS 1998: "Free Space," edited by Brad Linaweaver and Ed Kramer 2001: Poul Anderson, for lifetime achievement ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************** From timjeffers at gopbi.com Wed Sep 5 23:44:36 2001 From: timjeffers at gopbi.com (timjeffers at gopbi.com) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 23:44:36 Subject: ADV: Web hosting $6.95 per month - NO GIMMICKS! Message-ID: <127.399763.431657@unknown> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 7211 bytes Desc: not available URL: From premiomayor at univision.com Wed Sep 5 20:56:40 2001 From: premiomayor at univision.com (TREND MARKETING) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 23:56:40 EDT Subject: PORQUE USTED LO MERECE! Message-ID: <38764810.10.9174@mbox.surecom.com> This offer is intended only for opt in clients of Trend Marketing & Associates who live in Latin America and Spain; if you believe that you have received this by error or do not wish to receive future offers please respond to this e-mail with the subject line "REMOVE" Si usted no desea recibir ofertas en el futuro favor de responder a este e-mail con el sujeto "NO MAS" RESERVACION 60191271 CONTROL GNEM090601 ¡Felicidades! ¡Usted ha sido seleccionado! Basado en su estado social y profesional usted ha sido elegido para recibir un boleto para el siguiente paquete vacacional en la Florida con un fabuloso crucero por el Caribe para disfrutar con su familia. Usted puede disfrutar de este programa vacacional exótico cuando desee. Su boleto tiene una vigencia de doce meses. ¡Usted elige la fecha de su viaje! DREAMTIME TOURS INTERNATIONAL TRAVEL SERVICES tiene el orgullo de patrocinar este evento. 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Esto no es ninguna lotería, concurso o sorteo. ¡Se acepta una so! la! llamada para inscribirse! No se aceptan llamdas de terceros ni se le pueden dar detalles. Un hotel puede ser sustituido por otro de la misma clase si no hubiese disponibilidad. La oferta del coche de alquiler no incluye seguros, impuestos ní opciones adicionales. DREAMTIME TOURS INTERNATIONAL TRAVEL SERVICES 12000 Biscayne Blvd. Suite 202 Miami, Florida 33181 This offer is intended only for opt in clients of Trend Marketing & Associates who live in Latin America and Spain; if you believe that you have received this by error or do not wish to receive future offers please respond to this e-mail with the subject line "REMOVE" Si usted no desea recibir ofertas en el futuro favor de responder a este e-mail con el sujeto "NO MAS" © 2001 Derechos reservados de Trend Marketing & Associates, Inc -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 23854 bytes Desc: not available URL: From AFABIntl at netdor.com Wed Sep 5 18:47:37 2001 From: AFABIntl at netdor.com (AFAB Seguridad Electronica) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 01:47:37 +0000 Subject: In English & Espaol Security Web Sites/Paginas Web de Seguridad Message-ID: <20010906014737.UNRQ28026.mtiwmhc25.worldnet.att.net@[12.94.1.7]> AFAB International, Inc., Fort Lauderdale, Florida U. S. A. 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Nombre de usuario = AFAB Clave = Peru User name = AFAB Password = Peru Para mas informacion y precios, nos pueden contactar a los numeros arriba mencionados. For more information and Industry Pricing you may contact us at the numbers above. You are eligible to receive this Email as a recognized security professional. If you have received this in error, or wish to be removed from the mailing list, slimply click Reply and insert the word Remove in the Subject Line. Under Bill s.1618 TITLE III passed by the 105th US Congress this letter cannot be considered spam as it includes contact information and a method of removal. Ud. ha sido elegido para recibir este correo electronico pues lo reconocemos como un profesional de seguridad. Si Ud. ha recibido este correo electronico por erro, o si Ud. desea que lo saquemos de nuestra lista, simplemente haga Click en Reply y escriba la palabra Remove en la linea Subject Line. Bajo la ley S. 1618 TITLE III pasado por el 105 Congreso de los Estados Unidos, esta carta no puede ser considerada como un "spam" pues esta incluye informacion sobre contactos y metodo para removerla. From vortex6 at cardtown.com Thu Sep 6 03:12:50 2001 From: vortex6 at cardtown.com (vortex6 at cardtown.com) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 03:12:50 Subject: toner supplies Message-ID: <447.676074.766186@cardtown.com> **** VORTEX SUPPLIES **** YOUR LASER PRINTER TONER CARTRIDGE, COPIER AND FAX CARTRIDGE CONNECTION SAVE UP TO 30% FROM RETAIL ORDER BY PHONE:1-888-288-9043 ORDER BY FAX: 1-888-977-1577 E-MAIL REMOVAL LINE: 1-888-248-4930 UNIVERSITY AND/OR SCHOOL PURCHASE ORDERS WELCOME. (NO CREDIT APPROVAL REQUIRED) ALL OTHER PURCHASE ORDER REQUESTS REQUIRE CREDIT APPROVAL. PAY BY CHECK (C.O.D), CREDIT CARD OR PURCHASE ORDER (NET 30 DAYS). IF YOUR ORDER IS BY CREDIT CARD PLEASE LEAVE YOUR CREDIT CARD # PLUS EXPIRATION DATE. IF YOUR ORDER IS BY PURCHASE ORDER LEAVE YOUR SHIPPING/BILLING ADDRESSES AND YOUR P.O. NUMBER NOTE: WE DO NOT CARRY 1) XEROX, BROTHER, PANASONIC, FUJITSU PRODUCTS 2) HP DESKJETJET/INK JET OR BUBBLE JET CARTRIDGES 3) CANON BUBBLE JET CARTRIDGES 4) ANY OFFBRANDS BESIDES THE ONES LISTED BELOW. 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ALL TRADEMARKS AND BRAND NAMES LISTED ABOVE ARE PROPERTY OF THE RESPECTIVE HOLDERS AND USED FOR DESCRIPTIVE PURPOSES ONLY. From freematt at coil.com Thu Sep 6 04:27:33 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 07:27:33 -0400 Subject: L. Neil Smith Won The Prometheus Award for "Forge of the Elders" Message-ID: From ravage at ssz.com Thu Sep 6 05:34:52 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 07:34:52 -0500 Subject: Baby's Hand Movements Could Be First Sign Of Language Message-ID: <3B976D6C.886D5B39@ssz.com> http://unisci.com/stories/20013/0906014.htm -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From mean-green at hushmail.com Thu Sep 6 05:02:25 2001 From: mean-green at hushmail.com (mean-green at hushmail.com) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 12:02:25 +0000 Subject: Omniva\'s E-Mail \'Shredder\' Offers New Level of Security Message-ID: <200109061202.f86C2Pr23890@mailserver1.hushmail.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 6834 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Thu Sep 6 03:34:19 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 12:34:19 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: onion p2p camouflaging as vanilla traffic Message-ID: A couple of questions to resident cluebots: 1) what is the bulk of traffic originating on user side and which does not end within the ISP? 2) how much of that traffic is in clear? Specifically, what is the percentile of SSL sessions, and what is the trend? Do we at all already see things SOAPy, .NETy, or XML-RPCy out there in the wild? 3) browser-web server connect is bidirectional. Which do's and don'ts needs one follow, if one wants to implement an unblockable (well, an ISP not granting web access won't stay an ISP for long) p2p infrastructure on top of that? (should have paid more attention to the REST thing on FoRK, damn). Some illuminating comments highly appreciated. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 P.S. Any interest on a #cypherpunks on a silc server? Both client and server are easy to set up. http://silcnet.org/ silc.netropolis.org (208.222.215.99) is there, but seems unreliable. Apart from that, SILC just works. From freematt at coil.com Thu Sep 6 09:51:15 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 12:51:15 -0400 Subject: ACTION: Protecting Privacy, SIGN THIS LETTER Message-ID: From petmaster at iwon.com Thu Sep 6 12:57:59 2001 From: petmaster at iwon.com (Taylor Enterprises) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 12:57:59 Subject: National Brand Grocery Coupons Of Your Choice Message-ID: <200109061638.f86Gcvh22422@logs-ta.proxy.aol.com> Limited Time Offer Here is your ticket to over $500.00 dollars worth of coupons on your favorite grocery products! Get the coupons of your choice on major national brands from your authourized distributor! The Grocery Coupon Certificate savings books allow you to select coupons for the porducts you buy! You select the coupons you want from a list of over 1,000 National Brand items. HOW DOES THIS WORK? For only $29.95, you receive a $500 Grocery Coupon Ceritficate Book. It contains 50 Coupon Certificates. Each certificate is valued at $10 in grocery coupons. Simply fill out the certificate with code numbers of the coupons you want from our list of over 1,000 products and mail it to our processing center. We fill your order with coupons from each selection until we reach the $10 value of the certificate. Your coupons are mailed to you in approximately 14 days. IT' THAT EASY! Taylor Enterprises cypherpunks-unedited at toad.com 225 Meetinghouse Lane Middletown, CT 06457 cypherpunks-unedited at toad.com From vicric at vicric.com Thu Sep 6 10:09:38 2001 From: vicric at vicric.com (Vicki Richman) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 13:09:38 -0400 Subject: Trummel v. Mitchell: 1st Amendment Issue Message-ID: Declan, this is not an electronic issue, but Trummel v. Mitchell, in Washington State, goes to the heart of a question raised on politech: Who is a "legitimate" journalist? See: http://www.contracabal.org/806-00.html Briefly, Paul Trummel, a retired journalist from Britain, with impeccable credentials, discovered what he believed to be fraud and abuse in the management of his moderate-income retirement home. He published leaflets and distributed them to his neighbors. The management got an order of protection against him, effectively banning him from his home and preventing him from approaching his neighbors. He argued freedom of the press, but the judge ruled that he was not a journalist, as he was retired and not employed by any "legitimate" publication. Therefore, the judge held, he lacked protection of the First Amendment and was guilty of harassment. In trying to get the order rescinded, Trummel has a pro bono attorney and an amicus brief by the ACLU. He'd like political civil-libertarian support, as well as financial contributions for his attorney. Solidarity, -- Vicki Richman vicric at vicric.com http://vicric.com ********** From a3495 at cotse.com Thu Sep 6 11:08:45 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 14:08:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: onion p2p camouflaging as vanilla traffic Message-ID: Eugene wrote: >A couple of questions to resident cluebots: > >1) what is the bulk of traffic originating on user side and which does not > end within the ISP? > >2) how much of that traffic is in clear? Specifically, what is the > percentile of SSL sessions, and what is the trend? Do we at > all already see things SOAPy, .NETy, or XML-RPCy out there in the > wild? > >3) browser-web server connect is bidirectional. Which do's and don'ts > needs one follow, if one wants to implement an unblockable (well, an > ISP not granting web access won't stay an ISP for long) p2p > infrastructure on top of that? > >(should have paid more attention to the REST thing on FoRK, damn). > >Some illuminating comments highly appreciated. You might want to check ResearchIndex, the NEC Research Institute's Scientific Literature Digital Library. They have a whole treasure trove of relevant PDFs online: an excellent resource in general(if you haven't come across it already.) Good luck! ~Faustine. http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/cs From bob at black.org Thu Sep 6 14:12:59 2001 From: bob at black.org (Subcommander Bob) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 14:12:59 -0700 Subject: police tracking activists (the more things change...) Message-ID: <3B97E6DB.464048E4@black.org> September 6, 2001 By VIK JOLLY and TONY SAAVEDRA The Orange County Register ANAHEIM -- Detectives compiling information on Latino activists used an investigative technique typically reserved for investigating organized crime, drug networks and street gangs, according to a former police captain. Police, under orders from Chief Roger Baker, created organizational charts on five Latino activists who complained about alleged police misconduct. Baker presented the confidential report Nov. 14, 2000, to the City Council in a closed-door briefing. Retired Capt. Marc Hedgpeth said the charts showing the activists and their connections to community groups were part of a process called "link analysis," often used to outline conspiracies. Hedgpeth, who headed Anaheim's intelligence unit for four of his 25 years with the department, said the process in Anaheim is almost never used on non-criminals. To my knowledge just looking at the report, I can't think of a time when we ever used a link analysis process to deal with people who are not suspected of any kind of criminal conduct," said Hedgpeth, who competed with Baker for the chief's post. "At least four of those people who were attacked by Baker, we never suspected them of any kind of criminal conduct." http://www.ocregister.com/local/chief00906cci1.shtml From Registration at freesamples.com Thu Sep 6 09:28:37 2001 From: Registration at freesamples.com (Registration at freesamples.com) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 16:28:37 +0000 Subject: Visit FreeSamples.com for more free sampling fun. Message-ID: <200109062331.f86NVvO13361@mail1.freesamples.com> Dear Richard, Greetings from FreeSamples.com. Thank you for ordering your free Tide Kick - the revolutionary pretreating and measuring device from Tide. By placing your order, you have automatically become a member of FreeSamples.com - the best sampling site on the web. Here is some important information about your membership: Your user name is: cypherpunks at toad.com Your password is: river For more free sampling fun, just click now on the link below: http://www.FreeSamples.com?v=tknew Please take a moment to save this email in a place where you can easily retrieve it - just in case you ever forget your user name or password. If you do forget your password and can't find this email, just return to FreeSamples.com and click on the link that says "Forgot Your Password?" and we'll email it to you right away. If you want to change your password, first log-in, and then go to "My Preferences" and change it to anything you like. You must enter the new password in both the "Password" and "Confirm Password" windows. Remember to click on the "Update" button located on the bottom right hand side of the screen to lock the new information in. Happy Sampling. Sincerely, Your Friends at FreeSamples.com FUN FOR THE TAKING http://www.FreeSamples.com From tidekick at freesamples.com Thu Sep 6 09:29:36 2001 From: tidekick at freesamples.com (tidekick at freesamples.com) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 16:29:36 +0000 Subject: TideKick order Message-ID: <200109062331.f86NVwO13376@mail1.freesamples.com> Thank you for ordering your free Tide Kick - the revolutionary pretreating and measuring device from Tide. You will receive your Tide Kick coupon in approximately 2-3 weeks. Enjoy your new Tide Kick. The FreeSamples.com and Tide teams Please do not respond to this message. If you need to contact Tide, please click on this link or copy and paste it into your browser: http://www.tide.com/cgi-bin/tellUs.cgi?v=06007026 From bob at black.org Thu Sep 6 17:20:32 2001 From: bob at black.org (Subcommander Bob) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 17:20:32 -0700 Subject: DoJ claims to have subpeona'd reporters phone records 13 times/decade Message-ID: <3B9812D0.DFE3F09@black.org> DoJ claims to have subpeona'd reporters phone records 13 times/decade http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGA94IS6BRC.html From bob at black.org Thu Sep 6 17:26:19 2001 From: bob at black.org (Subcommander Bob) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 17:26:19 -0700 Subject: sued for spying on employees inside your own house Message-ID: <3B98142B.825BC37E@black.org> Posted: September 6, 2001 06:02 PM (WSVN, JUST ONE STATION) Talk show host Rosie O'Donnell is being sued by former members of her security staff. They claim she spied on them and illegally recorded their conversations at her South Florida mansion. Although she doesn't live down here all the time...Rosie O'Donnell is part of the South Florida celebrity scene. And now like many celebs before her, she finds herself on the wrong end of a lawsuit. Rosie O'Donnell is a superstar. But she's lost three of her fans. Chris Delia, Steve Rubio and Ted Van Rijan have filed a lawsuit against Rosie and two security firms. They say while working security at her star island home - their conversations were illegally recorded by a device hidden in smoke detector. All had worked for her for years and say they felt close to the star and her four children. Steve Rubio, Security Guard said, "We developed a bond with the kids you know, we were the male figures, the dominate male figures in their lives pretty much." But the men say any feeling of family evaporated when they were fired after they complained about the hidden recordings. Steve Rubio, Security Guard said, "It's especially hurtful because you basically feel betrayed." They say if she had apologized , they wouldn't have filed a lawsuit. Instead Steve says he got a phone call from an irate Rosie. Steve Rubio, Security Guard said, "And she was just yelling and screaming and cursing at me and you know it was - I was shocked to the point I couldn't even respond to her except to say I think it's probably best to speak, you know, to our attorney." All three men are private investigators and say they understand a star's need for privacy. They suspect they were recorded because Rosie was concerned about leaks to the media about her private life. Its something they say they never did. Steve Rubio, Security Guard said, "Absolutely. And could you look Rosie in the eye and say - absolutely and she should know better - she should know that." But their lawyer says it was Rosie who violated their privacy. Russell Adler, Attorney says, "My clients protected Rosie's family and their privacy and that was very important to them to do that - and Rosie didn't protect theirs." Steve Rubio, Security Guard said, "We would never betray her the way she betrayed us - we would never do that." Expect Rosie O'Donnell to challenge that. she wasn't talking about the lawsuit - but her publicist denies any wrongdoing and says Rosie looks forward to defending herself in court. http://www.wsvn.com/extra/entertainment/box1/ From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Thu Sep 6 17:30:19 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 17:30:19 -0700 Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change Message-ID: <200109070030.f870UJS68852@mailserver1c.hushmail.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 1933 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 6 17:46:41 2001 From: sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com (CJ Parker) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 17:46:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I Sure Am Lonely... Message-ID: <20010907004641.48606.qmail@web20205.mail.yahoo.com> Boy, just get busted one lousy time for sending death threats to federal judges and the richest man in the world, and everybody avoids you like the plague... Nobody replies to my CPukes Posts, NoBody sends me any email... ...well, Attila T. Hun sent a copy of the entire Encyclopaedia Britannica to my Cellular Phone as a Text Message, but that's because he a RealAssHole, eh? (It cost me $4,537.89 in phone charges, but I found out that the Annual Average Rainfall in Bolivia is 79.3 inches, and that Bolivia exports tin, eh? So I guess it wasn't a total loss. Besides, now at least I have something to read, since I CERTAINLY DON'T HAVE ANY EMAIL TO READ, CAUSE NOBODY EVER SENDS ME ANY, EH?) sonofgomez709 "I Invented The [ANY] Key, But Micro$not *Stole* It!" p.s. - AnyBody want to join my new Conspiracy? I need a KingPin so I have someone to RatOut next time, eh? p.p.s. - Bolivia also exports Columbian coffee, but Columbia doesn't export Bolivian coffee. Go figure, eh? ===== CJ Parker #05987-196 "Proud To Be A Felon In Ameri%a!" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com From amp at pobox.com Thu Sep 6 16:15:06 2001 From: amp at pobox.com (amp) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 18:15:06 -0500 Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010905085156.00888460@pop.sprynet.com> References: <20010905084400.B29327@cluebot.com> <3.0.6.32.20010905085156.00888460@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <01090618150606.01265@www.zeugma.nu> On Wednesday 05 September 2001 10:51 am, David Honig wrote: > At 09:49 AM 9/5/01 -0700, John Young wrote: > >Isn't what is new here is that the man did not publish this material > >as was the material of Joyce, Miller, et al? Nobody saw it except > >him and the cop who discovered it. > > Wasn't it his *parents* who read his journal and turned him in, hoping for > 'treatment' > instead of jail? Shades of David & Ted Kaczynski... Indeed. From press accounts, his mother turned him in. (That's how Fedgov got his diary/notebook from what I understand.) The appelate decision that was recently in the news is that he pled guilty thinking he would get probation/treatment. The judge, in effect said, "I don't know why the hell you would have thought that. Lock him up!" I'm concerned that Fedgov has been able to successfully prosecute this thoughtcrime using his own private writings. It could very well be possible that writing his evil thoughts down kept him from acting on them. I know that sometimes when I have a good rant building up, I have to just write it to get it out of my system. This case could well have unintended consequences if people finally understand that Fedgov doesn't give a rat's ass about any alleged 'right to privacy'. Americans allegedly have right to 'keep and bear arms' as well, spelled out on paper (currently being used as toilet paper in government offices across the land), but there are thousands of laws regulating against same. -- TANSTAAFL, amp at pobox.com http://www.zeugma.nu/ Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic. From wolf at priori.net Thu Sep 6 18:24:09 2001 From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 18:24:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hushmail (Was: Re: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Sep 2001 keyser-soze at hushmail.com wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- [snip] > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: Hush 2.0 > > wmAEARECACAFAjuYFYwZHGtleXNlci1zb3plQGh1c2htYWlsLmNvbQAKCRAg4ui5IoBV > n/9+AJ9eK/gSpH59ahQrotIOcYbOo8cHQgCeM0ki/sMKBda2tdCstCyN4LqFQWk= > =1jll > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- It's nice that Hush is using PGP now, but as far as I can tell, there is no way for anyone to obtain your public key, to verify your signature. Thus, signing your messages doesn't do a lot of good at present. I suppose we'll have to wait for "Hush 2.1" for such features. From wolf at priori.net Thu Sep 6 18:24:09 2001 From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 18:24:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hushmail (Was: Re: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Sep 2001 keyser-soze at hushmail.com wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- [snip] > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: Hush 2.0 > > wmAEARECACAFAjuYFYwZHGtleXNlci1zb3plQGh1c2htYWlsLmNvbQAKCRAg4ui5IoBV > n/9+AJ9eK/gSpH59ahQrotIOcYbOo8cHQgCeM0ki/sMKBda2tdCstCyN4LqFQWk= > =1jll > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- It's nice that Hush is using PGP now, but as far as I can tell, there is no way for anyone to obtain your public key, to verify your signature. Thus, signing your messages doesn't do a lot of good at present. I suppose we'll have to wait for "Hush 2.1" for such features. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Thu Sep 6 19:42:25 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 19:42:25 -0700 Subject: Cypherpunks 9/8/01 - GOLDEN GATE PARK - EFF Music Share-In Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010906171258.03161ec0@idiom.com> See http://cryptorights.org/cypherpunks/meetingpunks.html for SF, Toronto, Seattle, & Bangalore Cypherpunks announcements. SF Bay Area Cypherpunks September 2001 Physical Meeting Announcement General Info: DATE: Saturday 8 September 2001 TIME: 1 - 6 PM (Pacific Time) Location: Golden Gate Park, corner of Haight & Stanyan "Our agenda is a widely-held secret." As usual, this is an Open Meeting on US Soil, and everyone's invited. The Cypherpunks Secret Cabal Meeting starts at 1:00, so bring blankets, lunch, tape recorders, drums, etc. The slightly-better-hidden agenda is at http://www.eff.org/events/share-in/ or http://www.eff.org/cafe/share-in/20010823_eff_share_in_pr.html It's the east end of the main part of the park (not counting the Panhandle.) Music Share-in Festival in Golden Gate Park Hosted by Wavy Gravy and John Perry Barlow EFF Music Share In Saturday, September 8, 2001, 2pm-5pm PT Golden Gate Park (corner of Haight & Stanyan) Join the Electronic Frontier Foundation and ten Independent bands for an afternoon of music supporting artists' rights. All bands performing grant permission for their Share - In performances to be recorded and shared with friends under EFF's Open Audio License. Tapers are encouraged and welcome. Ten bands will play in two stage areas in the meadow. Hosting the main stage are Wavy Gravy and EFF co-founder John Perry Barlow. Musicians performing at the event include singer/songwriter Adrian West, the jazzy Alex Buccat Quartet featuring Sanaz, folk/pop band Atticus Scout, high-altitude bluegrass string band Hot Buttered Rum, soulful solo performer Michael Musika, the political satirists of The Planning Commission, Berkeley-based party band Shady Lady, classical Indian instrumentalists Srini and Raja, acoustic rock performer Vanessa Lowe, and singer/songwriter Wendy Haynes. Come with friends and family! Hear great music, feast on Ben and Jerry's ice cream and support a great cause. Best of all, It's FREE! There will also be booths, t-shirts and CDs. Visit our website at: http://www.eff.org/cafe for more information or call +1 415-436-9333 x101 Directions: East end of the main body of the park. http://maps.yahoo.com/py/maps.py?BFCat=&Pyt=Tmap&newFL=Use+Address+Below&addr=haight+st.+and+stanyon+st.&csz=San+Francisco%2C+CA+94117&country=us&Get%A0Map=Get+Map > Thanks! Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com, Cell +1-415-307-7119. > Dave Del Torto, dave at deltor.to From declan at well.com Thu Sep 6 17:03:17 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 20:03:17 -0400 Subject: FC: Replies to "When anyone can publish, who's a journalist now?" Message-ID: Previous Politech message: http://www.politechbot.com/p-02445.html ********** From info at giganetstore.com Thu Sep 6 12:13:06 2001 From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 20:13:06 +0100 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Leil=F5es_ao_pre=E7o_da_banana?= Message-ID: <0b5c40613190691WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com> Os leilões ao preço da Banana no Gigaleilão.com.pt Não perca estas oportunidades... Ou Tudo ou Nada-DVD, The Full Monty Comédia hilariante ao preço da chuva. DVD novo por apenas 900$ ! Fecho 11/09 15:00 Base de licitação 900$ Impressora HP 840C A impressora deskjet mais económica com qualidade fotográfica excepcional! Compre já por apenas 9.900$ ! Fecho 11/09 15:00 Base de licitação 9.900$ Alien, O Regresso-DVD Sigourney Weaver e Winona Ryder brilham neste incrível e extremamente esperado thriller.Preço incrível de 900$ ! Fecho 11/09 15:00 Base de licitação 900$ Windows Millennium A pensar em quem quer utilizar o seu computador de forma divertida, simples e eficaz. Aproveite agora! Só 4.900$ ! Fecho 11/09 15:00 Base de licitação 4.900$ E muito mais... em www.gigaleilao.com.pt . O novo serviço de leilões da giganetstore.com inédito e inovador no mercado online português. Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site http:\\www.giganetstore.com , ir à edição do seu registo e retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das nossas promoções e novos serviços. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 5377 bytes Desc: not available URL: From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Thu Sep 6 20:25:18 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 20:25:18 -0700 Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change Message-ID: <200109070325.f873PIl57589@mailserver1.hushmail.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 2072 bytes Desc: not available URL: From declan at well.com Thu Sep 6 17:35:06 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 20:35:06 -0400 Subject: Who does the First Amendment protect? Message-ID: <20010906203506.A4923@cluebot.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 120 bytes Desc: not available URL: From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Thu Sep 6 20:54:39 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 20:54:39 -0700 Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change Message-ID: <200109070354.f873sdd96239@mailserver1c.hushmail.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 5800 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bill.stewart at pobox.com Thu Sep 6 22:55:30 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 22:55:30 -0700 Subject: Slashdot | Texas Arabic Hosting Provider Shut Down By FBI In-Reply-To: <3B98511E.38D3795A@ssz.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010906222816.0315ad40@idiom.com> At 11:46 PM 09/06/2001 -0500, Jim Choate wrote to the Cypherpunks list > http://slashdot.org/yro/01/09/07/0048215.shtml It's an outrageous story. http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010906/us/business_raided_2.html http://www.middleeastwire.com/newswire/stories/20010905_meno.shtml http://www.txcn.com/texasnews/463428_TXCN_ba_FBIRaid.html http://www.wfaa.com/wfaa/articledisplay/0,1002,31013,00.html - 9/5/01 http://www.wfaa.com/wfaa/articledisplay/0,1002,31120,00.html - 9/6/01 http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010906/wr/mideast_usa_internet_dc_3.html Infocom Corporation, http://www.infocomcorp.com/ is a web hosting and computer sales company based in Richardson, Texas, supporting over 500 clients, particularly Arabic web sites, which were shut down temporarily during the raid (many are back up now). Clients include Al-Jazeera television and the newspaper Al-Sharq, both based in Qatar, and several major Muslim American organizations such as the Council on American Islamic Relations, the Islamic Society of North America, the Islamic Association for Palestine and the Holy Land Foundation. On September 5, the FBI raided them, with a sealed search warrant, looking for information on terrorist groups. They also served subpoenas on the Holy Land Foundation, based across the street, which some of the news articles say the FBI suspects of having ties to Hamas. FBI spokeswoman Lori Bailey said the investigation was not aimed at InfoCom's clients, but she declined to say why authorities targeted the company. 80 agents were involved in the search of the files, and carried boxes of material out of the building. It was part of a two-year investigation by the North Texas Joint Terrorism Task Force (multi-agency incl. FBI, SS, Customs.) The Reuters article on Yahoo describes Al-Jazeera as "a major regional news source for Arabic speakers. Often dubbed ``the Arab CNN,'' it has emerged as a major force in a region where most broadcasters operate under direct state control." One of the Slashdot commentators said it reminded him of the Steve Jackson Games raid. Given the presence of news organizations, potentially including journalism work products subject to ECPA protection, this is my reaction as well. Later stories include the FBI denying accusations of anti-Arab bias, and a statement by 10 American Islamic groups accusing them of an "Anti-Muslim witchhunt promoted by the pro-Israel lobby in America". The FBI denied the raid was any kind of witchhunt, ``We were executing a search warrant as part of a criminal investigation. It had nothing to do with anti-Islamic or anti-Palestinian or anti-Middle East issues or anything like that,'' said special agent Lori Bailey. From declan at well.com Thu Sep 6 19:58:56 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 22:58:56 -0400 Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: <200109070030.f870UJS68852@mailserver1c.hushmail.com>; from keyser-soze@hushmail.com on Thu, Sep 06, 2001 at 05:30:19PM -0700 References: <200109070030.f870UJS68852@mailserver1c.hushmail.com> Message-ID: <20010906225856.A7373@cluebot.com> I'm confused about "Fedgov" references. This was a state law and a state prosecution and a state judge. Doesn't make it right, but it has little to do with "Fedgov." -Declan On Thu, Sep 06, 2001 at 05:30:19PM -0700, keyser-soze at hushmail.com wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > At 06:15 PM 9/6/2001 -0500, amp wrote: > On Wednesday 05 September 2001 10:51 am, David Honig wrote: > > At 09:49 AM 9/5/01 -0700, John Young wrote: > > >Isn't what is new here is that the man did not publish this material > > >as was the material of Joyce, Miller, et al? Nobody saw it except > > >him and the cop who discovered it. > > > > Wasn't it his *parents* who read his journal and turned him in, hoping for > > 'treatment' > > instead of jail? Shades of David & Ted Kaczynski... > > >Indeed. From press accounts, his mother turned him in. (That's how Fedgov got > his diary/notebook from what I understand.) The appelate decision that was > recently in the news is that he pled guilty thinking he would get > probation/treatment. The judge, in effect said, "I don't know why the hell > you would have thought that. Lock him up!" > > >I'm concerned that Fedgov has been able to successfully prosecute this > thoughtcrime using his own private writings. It could very well be possible > that writing his evil thoughts down kept him from acting on them. I know that > sometimes when I have a good rant building up, I have to just write it to get > it out of my system. This case could well have unintended consequences if > people finally understand that Fedgov doesn't give a rat's ass about any > alleged 'right to privacy'. Americans allegedly have right to 'keep and bear > arms' as well, spelled out on paper (currently being used as toilet paper in > government offices across the land), but there are thousands of laws > regulating against same. > > This may continue until JDF types with nothing to lose (e.g., diagnosed with a terminal illness) put selected DOJ, FBI and Congressional targets in their sights. > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: Hush 2.0 > > wmAEARECACAFAjuYFYwZHGtleXNlci1zb3plQGh1c2htYWlsLmNvbQAKCRAg4ui5IoBV > n/9+AJ9eK/gSpH59ahQrotIOcYbOo8cHQgCeM0ki/sMKBda2tdCstCyN4LqFQWk= > =1jll > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From drriley at mac.com Thu Sep 6 19:59:32 2001 From: drriley at mac.com (drriley) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 22:59:32 -0400 Subject: Software to help fix your credit In-Reply-To: <0000761b7c72$00006cde$00004324@> References: <0000761b7c72$00006cde$00004324@> Message-ID: <8041379973.20010906225932@mac.com> Hmmm ... sounds like spam to me ... but on the topic of credit reports and credit ratings ... I was even denied the opportunity to open a chequing account by a bank yesterday, because my credit file had "derogatory remarks" on it ... but the bank was unable to confirm what those "derogatory remarks" were. Friday, July 13, 2001, 12:42:47 PM, you wrote: hfic> Have you checked your personal credit reports recently? hfic> If you are planning making any major purchase like purchasing a Home or hfic> newcar or getting a new job or even a promotion, Please....read on! hfic> You need to have a GOOD to EXCELLENT credit rating. If you do already, hfic> that's important, but if you know your credit is less than perfect, you need hfic> to get those negative remarks REMOVED, LEGALLY and quickly. From ravage at ssz.com Thu Sep 6 21:14:33 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 23:14:33 -0500 Subject: The Constitution & Gun Rights Message-ID: <3B9849A9.B0B41B60@ssz.com> http://www.ssz.com/cdr/guns.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From schoen at loyalty.org Thu Sep 6 23:28:18 2001 From: schoen at loyalty.org (Seth David Schoen) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 23:28:18 -0700 Subject: Cypherpunks 9/8/01 - GOLDEN GATE PARK - EFF Music Share-In In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20010906232215.0316ce70@idiom.com> References: <5.0.2.1.1.20010906200542.03153ab0@idiom.com> <5.0.2.1.1.20010906200542.03153ab0@idiom.com> <5.0.2.1.1.20010906232215.0316ce70@idiom.com> Message-ID: <20010906232818.I7391@zork.net> I'm going to be working at the Share-in, and I'd additionally like to invite everybody to celebrate a billion seconds of Unix with me immediately following the event. The 1,000,000,000th second after the Unix epoch is Sat Sep 8 18:46:40 PDT 2001 which closely follows this weekend's concert. I intend to have a celebratory dinner in honor of Unix history as soon as the concert clean-up is finished. -- Seth David Schoen | Its really terrible when FBI arrested Temp. http://www.loyalty.org/~schoen/ | hacker, who visited USA with peacefull down: http://www.loyalty.org/ (CAF) | mission -- to share his knowledge with http://www.freesklyarov.org/ | american nation. (Ilya V. Vasilyev) From bill.stewart at pobox.com Thu Sep 6 23:28:23 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 23:28:23 -0700 Subject: Friday, 9/7 - International Day of Action Against Video Surveillance Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010906232654.0316ca90@idiom.com> Perform for a video camera today! Or alternatively, go buy a cheap webcam and surveil somebody who's already performing (oh, wait, that wasn't what they meant :-) The EFF announced the following: --------- Friday, September 7 - International Day of Action Against Video Surveillance Join privacy-minded citizens in raising awareness of public video surveillance Electronic Frontier Foundation ACTION ALERT (Issued: Friday, August 31, 2001 / Deadline: Friday, September 7, 2001) Introduction: On Friday, 7 September 2001, a variety of groups from around the world will be collaborating on an international day of autonomous protests against the constant, indiscriminate and technologically sophisticated video surveillance of public places by both businesses and law enforcement agencies, and in favor of the right to privacy, which is a fundamental human right. The protests will take the form of short skits and plays, the majority of which will take place in front of "webcams," so that people all over the world can watch them via the Internet. What YOU Can Do: * If you are concerned about surveillance cameras in your area, and would like to get involved in the protests, then see New York's Surveillance Camera Players' (SCP) "How to Stage Your Own 'Surveillance Camera Theater' in 10 Easy-to-Follow Steps!" at: http://www.notbored.org/scp-how-to.html * To add your group to the confirmed list of activists, email SCP at: notbored at panix.com * Contact your legislators about online privacy issues. For information on how to contact your legislators and other government officials, see EFF's "Contacting Congress and Other Policymakers" guide at: http://www.eff.org/congress.html * Join EFF! For membership information see: http://www.eff.org/support/ Privacy Campaign: This drive to contact the Judiciary bureaucracy about their invasive policies is part of a larger campaign to highlight how extensively companies and governmental agencies subject us to surveillance and share and use personal information online, and what you can do about it. Check the EFF Privacy Now! Campaign website regularly for additional alerts and news: http://www.eff.org/privnow/ Background: The proposal reads as follows: We propose -- 1. that an international day of action against video surveillance -- specifically: the constant, indiscriminate and technologically sophisticated video surveillance of public places by both businesses and and law enforcement agencies -- take place on Friday, 7 September 2001; 2. that people who wish to intensify the struggle to protect and strengthen the right to privacy (a fundamental human right) should undertake autonomous actions at the local level and in a completely de-centralized fashion; 3. that, if and when possible, at least some of these actions should be undertaken in front of webcams that have already been installed in public places by private companies that are insensitive or even hostile to privacy concerns (in addition to disrupting "business as usual" for these companies, the use of webcams will allow the entire world to see 7s01 anti-videosurveillance actions as they take place); 4. that all individuals and groups participating in the 7s01 day of action keep in touch with at least one of the groups listed below and/or each other; 5. that at least one Web site links to or actually displays images from these actions as they take place; 6. that this proposal should be posted on-line and sent to as many people as possible and as soon as possible; and 7. that this proposal be translated into as many foreign languages as possible, but especially French, German, and Italian, for it is in France, Belgium, Germany and Italy that the anti-videosurveillance struggle is the most visible at the moment. List of participating groups: http://www.notbored.org/7s01.html EFF's action alert: http://www.eff.org/alerts/20010831_surveil_cam_alert.html Contacts: Bill Brown, Surveillance Camera Players notbored at panix.com +1 212-561-0106 http://www.surveillancecameraplayers.org/ Will Doherty, EFF Online Activist / Media Relations wild at eff.org +1 415 436 9333 x111 - end - From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Fri Sep 7 02:32:36 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 23:32:36 -1000 Subject: US v Miller (was Re: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: <200109070325.f873PIl57589@mailserver1.hushmail.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010906232421.01bec0e0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 20:25 9/6/2001 -0700, keyser-soze at hushmail.com wrote: >I was referring to the raft of federal firearms regulations and >prosecutions which ignore the clear interpretation of Miller v. >U.S.: that the right to keep and bear arms with obvious military >use shall not be regulated. > >The opinion didn't exactly say this because Jack Miller, a bank >robber and moonshiner, could not afford representation before the >SC and in fact died of apparent self-inflicted wounds before the >hearing date. I read he was a moonshiner and was murdered, possibly by competing moonshiners. >His co-defendent >Frank Layton apparently decided he wasn't interested in defending >our rights under the 2nd and took four years probation. I read he fled. >But despite the lack of >defendent representation the opinion, written by Justice James Clark >McReynolds, was notable in that it did not completely cave in to the >government demands. > >The case was returned to the lower court where Miller, if living, >could have made further arguments on his own behalf. He could have >easily and correctly argued that short-barreled shotguns had been >popular military weapons in the trenches of the First World War. It >was lucky for the federal government that he was dead. Isn't that amazing. >The courts and Congress have turned this opinion on its head to suit >their own purposes and because many/most in power see such citizen >empowerment as nothing short of a Constitutional suicide pact and >refuse to accept it. They can't remove the Second but they can try >and interpret it away. What is your source for all this? This case is a point of interest for me and such details as you have provided are not contained in the text of the ruling, so where did they come from? Reese From tcmay at got.net Thu Sep 6 23:41:22 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 23:41:22 -0700 Subject: Friday, 9/7 - International Day of Action Against Video Surveillance In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20010906232654.0316ca90@idiom.com> Message-ID: <200109070644.f876irf15072@slack.lne.com> On Thursday, September 6, 2001, at 11:28 PM, Bill Stewart wrote: > Perform for a video camera today! Or alternatively, go buy a cheap > webcam > and surveil somebody who's already performing (oh, wait, that wasn't > what they meant :-) > > The EFF announced the following: > --------- > > Friday, September 7 - International Day of Action Against Video > Surveillance > An "International Day of Action..." Gee, why are so many EFF and similar events sounding so much like Lefty events from the 60s? "National Mobilization Against Online Imperialism" "Teach-in to protest corporatism" "Join our circle today" "Jane Fonda and Abbe Hoffman need our help." "Perform for a video camera today!" "Fight the fascist insects who prey upon the life of the people." -- Stokely May From ravage at ssz.com Thu Sep 6 21:41:40 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 23:41:40 -0500 Subject: CNN.com - Could your job go to China? - September 6, 2001 Message-ID: <3B985004.9DA7C110@ssz.com> http://www.cnn.com/2001/CAREER/trends/09/06/china.trade.jobs/index.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Thu Sep 6 21:46:22 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 23:46:22 -0500 Subject: Slashdot | Hosting Provider Shut Down By FBI Message-ID: <3B98511E.38D3795A@ssz.com> http://slashdot.org/yro/01/09/07/0048215.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From pablo-escobar at hushmail.com Thu Sep 6 23:46:48 2001 From: pablo-escobar at hushmail.com (pablo-escobar at hushmail.com) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 23:46:48 -0700 Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change Message-ID: <200109070646.f876kmV31802@mailserver1.hushmail.com> At 05:30 PM 9/6/2001 -0700, keyser-soze at hushmail.com wrote: At 06:15 PM 9/6/2001 -0500, amp wrote: >>This case could well have unintended consequences if people finally understand that Fedgov doesn't give a rat's ass about any alleged 'right to privacy'. Americans allegedly have right to 'keep and bear arms' as well, spelled out on paper (currently being used as toilet paper in government offices across the land), but there are thousands of laws regulating against same. >This may continue until JDF types with nothing to lose (e.g., diagnosed with a terminal illness) put selected DOJ, FBI and Congressional targets in their sights. Yes! Its the hour to make a charter member of the Society of Timothy McVeigh. Choose a target and squeeze. Make an infamous exit. I know when I am in the door of the death that I will gladly join. From gngoa at goatelecom.com Thu Sep 6 12:09:19 2001 From: gngoa at goatelecom.com (Gregory & Nicholas) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 00:39:19 +0530 Subject: Club Cubana Goa Message-ID: <000a01c13707$70367380$8ca1d4d2@oemcomputer> Club Cubana Goa`s hottest nightspot opening for the season 2001-2002 on the 14th October 2001 once again. Featuring Dj`s from London in the first half. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 639 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at ssz.com Fri Sep 7 05:32:47 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 07:32:47 -0500 Subject: Quantum Crypto to the Rescue Message-ID: <3B98BE6F.1EA49C23@ssz.com> http://www.wired.com/news/infostructure/0,1377,46610,00.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Fri Sep 7 05:41:54 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 07:41:54 -0500 Subject: Linux.com :: Opinion :: Articles - on copyright Message-ID: <3B98C092.6B56E265@ssz.com> http://linux.com/opinion/newsitem.phtml?sid=1&aid=12516 -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From baptista at pccf.net Fri Sep 7 07:39:49 2001 From: baptista at pccf.net (baptista at pccf.net) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 10:39:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Software to help fix your credit In-Reply-To: <8041379973.20010906225932@mac.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Sep 2001, drriley wrote: > Hmmm ... sounds like spam to me ... but on the topic of credit reports > and credit ratings ... I was even denied the opportunity to open a > chequing account by a bank yesterday, because my credit file had > "derogatory remarks" on it ... but the bank was unable to confirm what > those "derogatory remarks" were. dr. - your in the cypherpunks conferences. whata pleasure. regards joe > > > > Friday, July 13, 2001, 12:42:47 PM, you wrote: > > hfic> Have you checked your personal credit reports recently? > > hfic> If you are planning making any major purchase like purchasing a Home or > hfic> newcar or getting a new job or even a promotion, Please....read on! > > hfic> You need to have a GOOD to EXCELLENT credit rating. If you do already, > hfic> that's important, but if you know your credit is less than perfect, you need > hfic> to get those negative remarks REMOVED, LEGALLY and quickly. > > > -- The dot.GOD Registry, Limited http://www.dot-god.com/ From baptista at pccf.net Fri Sep 7 07:39:49 2001 From: baptista at pccf.net (baptista at pccf.net) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 10:39:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Software to help fix your credit In-Reply-To: <8041379973.20010906225932@mac.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Sep 2001, drriley wrote: > Hmmm ... sounds like spam to me ... but on the topic of credit reports > and credit ratings ... I was even denied the opportunity to open a > chequing account by a bank yesterday, because my credit file had > "derogatory remarks" on it ... but the bank was unable to confirm what > those "derogatory remarks" were. dr. - your in the cypherpunks conferences. whata pleasure. regards joe > > > > Friday, July 13, 2001, 12:42:47 PM, you wrote: > > hfic> Have you checked your personal credit reports recently? > > hfic> If you are planning making any major purchase like purchasing a Home or > hfic> newcar or getting a new job or even a promotion, Please....read on! > > hfic> You need to have a GOOD to EXCELLENT credit rating. If you do already, > hfic> that's important, but if you know your credit is less than perfect, you need > hfic> to get those negative remarks REMOVED, LEGALLY and quickly. > > > -- The dot.GOD Registry, Limited http://www.dot-god.com/ From a3495 at cotse.com Fri Sep 7 10:29:19 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 13:29:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: police tracking activists (the more things change...) Message-ID: Subcommander Bob wrote: >ANAHEIM -- Detectives compiling information on Latino activists used an >investigative technique typically reserved for investigating organized >crime, drug networks and street gangs, according to a former police >captain. Police, under orders from Chief Roger Baker, created >organizational charts on five Latino activists who complained about >alleged police misconduct. Baker presented the confidential report Nov. >14, 2000, to the City Council in a closed-door briefing. Retired Capt. >Marc Hedgpeth said the charts showing the activists and their connections >to community groups were part of a process called "link analysis," often >used to outline conspiracies. If you're interested in how this works, here's a link to some interesting free demo software, for those who haven't seen it already: The Analyst's Notebook http://www.i2.co.uk/products/an/index_ns.htm The Analyst's Notebook is the world's leading visual investigative analysis software, used in 1200 organizations world-wide. It assists investigators by uncovering, interpreting, and displaying complex information in easily- understood chart form. The Analyst's Notebook includes two main tools for differently types of analysis, the Link Notebook and the Case Notebook. The Link Notebook supports: Link Analysis chart (also called Association charts) Commodity Flow charts Activity Charts Network or high volume link analysis charts The Case Notebook supports: Timeline or Sequence of Events Charts Case Flow or Transaction charts Combined Charts Showing Events and Flows Use the power of the Analyst's Notebook to: Visualize your Data! The Analyst's Notebook gives you a range of visualization formats, each one shedding a different light on your information. The Analysts Notebook supports the full range of analytical conventions adopted by analysts world-wide. In addition, the extensive features enable you to quickly find the connections between related sets of information, and reveal significant patterns in your data. Analyze Information from Many Sources The Analyst's Notebook can automatically analyze a dataset and portray it in the chart format of your choice. It helps you navigate through large networks in order to unravel complex relationships and quickly discover key information. The analytical techniques you can apply include: Link Analysis Timeline Analysis Network Analysis Create Intelligent Graphics In the Analyst's Notebook, chart items aren't just symbolic representations, they link back to the records in your data. Clicking on a chart item allows instant viewing or editing of the supporting information. .. and Present a Professional Picture. Use Analyst's Notebook's rich graphical environment to create charts for use in briefings and easily create "the picture that speaks a thousand words"! The Analyst's Notebook has proven to significantly increase the productivity of investigative teams, to help both analysts and managers achieve and retain an understanding of multiple cases and extensive data. The charts have proven successful in conveying complex information to judges and juries." "Intelligence-led Policing In 1996, the UK hosted the European Football (Soccer) Championship 'Euro 96'. the British Government was determined that the football action would not be overshadowed by hooliganism. A special unit was set up at New Scotland Yard to police the competition. the unit included an intelligence cell equipped with i2's Analysts Notebook linked to a text database. The majority of countries represented at the Euro 96 competition already used the i2 Analysts Notebooks to analyze crime in their own countries. Each country sent a representative to liaise with the British police and the product provided a common format for exchanging intelligence between them. The analysts used the Analysts Notebook to create charts identifying the trouble makers and showing the links between them. These charts were used in briefings at all levels to show the remarkably complex associations identified by the analysis. Senior officers were then able to identify possible problems and prevent trouble by targeting resources in the right locations. The i2 Analyst's Notebook charts were then included within the intelligence briefing packs and distributed to the operational units. They proved to be a very powerful method of showing problem areas and significantly contributed to the success of the operation. The disruptive elements were often intercepted before they reached the stadium. The country-wide operation successfully identified and prevented many potential incidents in the days, hours and minutes leading up to the Euro 96 matches. The operational teams used the intelligence to good effect, ensuring that the games were enjoyed in the trouble-free atmosphere they deserve." Analyst's Workstation A tailored software solution that has proved effective in law enforcement for tackling Crime and Social Disorder, and has applications within the commercial sector for loss prevention, such as fraudulent claims against insurance companies. The Analyst's Workstation integrates the complete i2 suite of analysis tools, enabling you to switch seamlessly between different analysis techniques without losing the overall thread of your work: Spatial, through links to Geographical Information Systems - highlighting concentrations of activity or "hotspots". Statistical, with iGlass (see below) Associative, with Analyst's Notebook - identifying associations and networks Temporal, with Analyst's Notebook - showing how events and activities relate to time Visual Querying, with iBase (see below) At the heart of the Analyst's Workstation, iBase is a database that provides a central repository for information from a variety of sources, in a structured and co-herent manner. iBase includes user-friendly features, such as Visual Querying, which enables you to easily ask questions of the data and quickly find the information you require. iGlass is a state-of-the-art data-mining tool which enables you to explore and present your data in a variety of statistical formats. You can identify patterns and trends, make comparisons between data-sets and highlight exceptions from the norm, all of which can be presented in a range of graphs and charts for reporting purposes. Seamless integration with the Analyst's Notebook., so you can conduct detailed link and timeline analysis of the data. Represented as a 'chart' you can analyse the detail of your information and visually identify the key entities, common associations, sequence of events and location of scenarios. Integration to leading GIS suppliers enables you to conduct spatial analysis, for example, viewing the location and number of incidences within your chosen geographical area. With the Analyst's Workstation you can more easily identify, consider and communicate complex scenarios, giving you an understanding of your problem which is fundamental to the formulation and implementation of strategies to address it." From jya at pipeline.com Fri Sep 7 13:40:09 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 13:40:09 -0700 Subject: Begging for Enemies of the State Message-ID: <200109071747.NAA20092@maynard.mail.mindspring.net> WSJ had a hilarious report yesterday about the frantic search for prisoners to fill empty prison beds that have resulted from frantic construction to meet court orders and mandatory sentencing now offset by declining crime rates -- or sentencing rates -- and governments kicking prisoners out of jail to reduce costs. The competiton between government-run prisons and the commercial ops have led to fabulous lobbying and jawboning of legislators and wardens to spread the lucrative but diminishing prison-care population around, represented in the report by Mississippi's plight of having too few prisoners to fill its state pens and county jails. At one point a bill was near passage that would have paid commercial operators for empty beds, for "ghost prisoners," so they wouldn't pull out to the business (following the admirable lead of the defense and farming industries). When that term made it into the news, there was a quick veto of the bill, but still the struggle goes on to find more prisoners or bookkeeping simulations thereof. Florida leads the nation with over 80,000 empty prison beds. Pity the pressured investigators and prosecutors and spooks to fabricate more enemies of the state or AP-bookkeeping simulations thereof. From freematt at coil.com Fri Sep 7 10:47:24 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 13:47:24 -0400 Subject: FBI Raids Muslim (ISP) Businesses, Charity Organizations Message-ID: Source: Direct Submission Organization: MENO Newsletter Email: Newsletter at MiddleEastWire.com To: msanews at msanews.mynet.net Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 18:48:10 1700 Title: Latest News Updates TEXT: Wednesday, September 5th, 2001 Latest News Update From Middle East News Online FBI Raids Muslim Businesses, Charity Organizations By Middle East News Online Reporter Posted Wednesday September 5, 2001 - 06:02:04 PM EDT DALLAS, Texas (MENO) - In another attempt to crack down on Muslims in the United States, the FBI hit again Wednesday, raiding a well-known Muslim Internet Service Provider company in Dallas, Texas. A Dallas area television reported that the raid involved nearly 50 federal agents and was preceded by complete evacuation of the building that hosted the company, Infocom Corporation, among other businesses. No reasons were yet provided for the raid, but Muslim activists in the US fear that the US' backing of Israel is forcing it to become a "police state." The Muslim company hosts over 500 companies including leading Muslim organizations' web sites. Eyewitnesses say that agents from the State Department, US Customs and US Secret Services have also took part of the raid. Infocom is based in Richardson, Texas. Currently, the company's entire records are being confiscated, a process that might take a few days. The host company provides services for well-known organizations such as Council on American Islamic Relations, Islamic Society of North America and Holy Land Foundation. Muslim leaders in the US say that such actions are very alarming, especially as some of these organizations known for their charity works, not only for Palestine, but also worldwide. Bayan Elashi, the owner of Infocom, told reporters "We are just waiting for them (the FBI) to tell us what this is about." MORE HEADLINES Greek FM: European Union A Great Opportunity For Turkish Cypriots Iraq: Saddam's Romance Novel Heads For Stage As Musical Saudi FM Meets Lahoud And Hariri, Accuses Israel Of Escalating Violence Kuwait, Jordan Sign Cultural Accord Israeli Forces on High Alert Poll Shows American Voters Favor Palestinian Statehood Israel Decides To Create "Buffer Zone" With Palestinian Territories Arafat-Peres Meeting Seen Possible Truce Efforts Pick Up King Abdullah, Solana Urge Implementation Of Mitchell's Recommendation COVERING THE WORLD CONFERENCE ON RACISM Durban Gathering Mulling South Africa Text On Middle East Conflict Moussa: US' Withdrawal From World Conference Against Racism Flagrant Bias Most Israelis Approve of UN Racism Conference Pullout 'Voices of Victims' at Durban Racism Conference Kuwait Bar Union Plays Big Role In Durban U.S. Withdrawal From UN Conference Criticised BUSINESS NEWS UPDATE 'Oman, Arab World Net Bandwidth Starved' By Conrad Prabhu Posted Wednesday September 5, 2001 - 10:18:38 AM EDT Muscat - Studies conducted by a strategic research company indicate that the Sultanate, along with a number of countries in the Arab world, will remain Internet bandwidth starved for several more years before improvements are forthcoming. According to the Arab Advisors Group (AAG), a Jordan-based specialised research and consulting company, the estimated 740,000-odd Internet subscribers in eight Arab countries share a grand total of Internet bandwidth of no more than 777 mbps. The combined Internet bandwidth of the Sultanate, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Jordan, Morocco, Syria and the United Arab Emirates pales in comparison to what Internet users have in Europe and the United States. The combined bandwidth of these eight Arab markets is equal to what 518 cable modem subscribers in the US have, the study concluded. The group's findings explain why the total Internet bandwidth in Oman and the Arab world is very low compared to that of other countries. It compares the Internet bandwidth among the Arab countries by using the group's 'Regional Bandwidth Index'. "In looking at what the AAG refers to as the 'Regional Bandwidth Index', we note that Internet users in Oman, Morocco, Egypt and Jordan have better bandwidth availability than those in the UAE, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon and Syria," said Jawad Abbassi, AAG's president. "Syria is the most bandwidth deprived of the countries with a score of 0.19. Egypt topped the rankings with a score of 2.11." The AAG calculated the Regional Bandwidth Index by dividing each country's share of the total Internet bandwidth available by its share of the total subscribers' base. A score of more than one indicates a better than regional bandwidth per subscriber. The higher the index the better the bandwidth situation in the country compared to the region. The research group tied the intra-regional variance to the different dynamics of competition and liberalisation in the Arab countries. However, the overall low Internet bandwidth in all of the countries is a direct result of high costs, it pointed out. "Overall, Internet bandwidth costs in the region remain at much higher rates than those in the US or even Europe. Being small operators on the global scene, the ISPs/operators still lack any 'peering' arrangements with international backbone operators. As such they continue to pay the complete cost of full-circuit connections to the International Internet backbone operators. Add to this, the existence of cross subsidisation (local rates by international rates) by monopoly operators and the cost becomes even higher," Abbassi explained. "The statistics in this research note are based on extensive and painstaking primary research in all of the markets analysed," Abbassi noted. "AAG's team of analysts are based in the region and periodically travel to the countries they cover to meet with operators, regulators and vendors as well as to cement their relationship with AAG's in-country researchers. The strong emphasis on primary research stems from AAG's commitment to providing the most reliable research, analysis and forecasts of Arab communications and Internet markets," he added. With liberalisation and privatisation steps gathering momentum across the region (five of the markets already have plans to introduce competition in international service by 2005), the AAG predicts an easing of the situation as international bandwidth rates in these markets come down and ISPs expand their international bandwidth without extra costs. The AAG's team of analysts produce a subscription only Strategic Research Service that provides its clients with country by country projections and landscape analysis report covering the Internet, telecommunication, and technology industries in the Arab world. The service also includes trend reports that analyse major trends and outlines best practices and strategies in Internet, telecommunication, and technology in the Arab world, and periodic Research Notes analysing major events and developments. MORE BUSINESS HEADLINES Venezuela Says OPEC Still Wants Higher Oil Prices Money Laundering Problem Totals 1 Trillion Amman Stock Exchange Trading Maintains Upward Trend National Bank Of Oman Launches Privilege Banking In Egypt Alcatel To Start Rehabilitation Of Iraq's Phone Network Jordan's Trade deficit goes up 15.3 % 'Oman, Arab World Net Bandwidth Starved' Yemen Approved To Partially Privatize Top Bank Tourism Industry In Palestine Suffering From Israeli Blockade ---------------------------------- For your comments and opinions please feel free to visit our Readers Forum to submit your opinion for possible publication. To be removed from future mailings, please click here or hit reply with REMOVE in the subject line. Copyright )2001 Middle East News Service, Inc. All rights reserved. ______________________________________________________________________________ __ __________ _ _______ ______ / |/ / __/ _ | / |/ / __/ | /| / / __/ / /|_/ /\ \/ __ |/ / _/ | |/ |/ /\ \ /_/ /_/___/_/ |_/_/|_/___/ |__/|__/___/ Views expressed on MSANEWS do not necessarily represent those of the MSANEWS editors, the Ohio State University or any of our associated staff and "watchers". Further distribution of material featured on this list may be restricted. In all cases, please obtain the necessary permission of the authors or rightful owners before forwarding any material to or from this list. This service is meant for the exchange of analyses and news, for both academic and activist usage. We depend on your input. However, this is not a discussion list. Thank you. To subscribe, send e-mail to: with the message body "subscribe MSANEWS Firstname Lastname". ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************** From juicy at melontraffickers.com Fri Sep 7 14:01:24 2001 From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 14:01:24 -0700 Subject: Eric Hughes Message-ID: Does anyone know Eric Hughes' current email address? the ricocet one is, of course, non-functional now. Thanks. From support at adcritic.com Fri Sep 7 11:06:51 2001 From: support at adcritic.com (AdCritic.com Support) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 14:06:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Thanks for registering with AdCritic.com!! Message-ID: <200109071806.OAA45117@hot.adcritic.com> ======================== Welcome to AdCritic.com! ======================== Username: cypher34534 Thank you for registering with AdCritic.com!! In order to confirm your registration, please click the link below. This will complete your registration and you will be a full member of Adcritic.com. Authentication link: http://www.adcritic.com/login/register/validate/?auth=MTU0NDU2LWZPdkxO Thank you, The AdCritic.com staff PS: Want to see our ads 10 to 50 times faster than you do now? Try our monthly subscription with full-screen ads and unlimited high-speed access. 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AdCritic.com Account Relations http://www.AdCritic.com/ -- x:206.133.176.176 t:Fri, 7 Sep 2001 14:15:41 -0400 From announce at inbox.nytimes.com Fri Sep 7 11:19:16 2001 From: announce at inbox.nytimes.com (NYTimes.com) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 14:19:16 -0400 Subject: Update your NYTimes.com Membership Message-ID: <200109071842.f87IgpB04449@ak47.algebra.com> Dear Member, Our records indicate that you have more than one NYTimes.com Subscriber ID. (Most likely, this is due to your registering to NYTimes.com again from different computers, or after a long period of not visiting us.) In order to help us provide you with the best service and to avoid duplication, please visit: http://www.nytimes.com/services/email/selectacct.html (You might be asked to sign in with your Subscriber ID and password. If you have forgotten your password, please visit http://www.nytimes.com/forgot for help.) 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The other IDs will then be cancelled from our system. If you prefer, you can ignore this message and after two weeks we will cancel the additional IDs and keep active the Subscriber ID you were using most recently. Thank you for your continued interest in NYTimes.com. Sincerely, The New York Times on the Web ------------------------------ ABOUT THIS E-MAIL This is a one time e-mail. As a member of the BBBOnline Privacy Program and the TRUSTe privacy program, we are committed to protecting your privacy. Please do not reply directly to this e-mail, but contact us at comments at nytimes.com. From announce at inbox.nytimes.com Fri Sep 7 11:19:16 2001 From: announce at inbox.nytimes.com (NYTimes.com) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 14:19:16 -0400 Subject: Update your NYTimes.com Membership Message-ID: <200109071850.NAA29552@einstein.ssz.com> Dear Member, Our records indicate that you have more than one NYTimes.com Subscriber ID. (Most likely, this is due to your registering to NYTimes.com again from different computers, or after a long period of not visiting us.) In order to help us provide you with the best service and to avoid duplication, please visit: http://www.nytimes.com/services/email/selectacct.html (You might be asked to sign in with your Subscriber ID and password. If you have forgotten your password, please visit http://www.nytimes.com/forgot for help.) Once you are on this page -- http://www.nytimes.com/services/email/selectacct.html -- you will see a list of Subscriber IDs currently registered to your e-mail address. Simply select the one you want to keep. The other IDs will then be cancelled from our system. If you prefer, you can ignore this message and after two weeks we will cancel the additional IDs and keep active the Subscriber ID you were using most recently. Thank you for your continued interest in NYTimes.com. Sincerely, The New York Times on the Web ------------------------------ ABOUT THIS E-MAIL This is a one time e-mail. As a member of the BBBOnline Privacy Program and the TRUSTe privacy program, we are committed to protecting your privacy. Please do not reply directly to this e-mail, but contact us at comments at nytimes.com. From support at adcritic.com Fri Sep 7 11:32:30 2001 From: support at adcritic.com (AdCritic.com Support) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 14:32:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Thanks for registering with AdCritic.com!! Message-ID: <200109071832.OAA01576@hot.adcritic.com> ======================== Welcome to AdCritic.com! ======================== Username: cypher34534 Thank you for registering with AdCritic.com!! In order to confirm your registration, please click the link below. This will complete your registration and you will be a full member of Adcritic.com. http://www.adcritic.com/login/register/validate/?auth=MTU0NDU2LWZPdkxO Authentication Hash: MTU0NDU2LWZPdkxO Thank you, The AdCritic.com staff PS: Want to see our ads 10 to 50 times faster than you do now? Try our monthly subscription with full-screen ads and unlimited high-speed access. More info at http://www.adcritic.com/submissions/highspeed/ From stevet at sendon.net Fri Sep 7 07:46:24 2001 From: stevet at sendon.net (Steve Thompson) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 14:46:24 +0000 Subject: I Sure Am Lonely... References: <20010907004641.48606.qmail@web20205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200109071621.MAA02558@divert.sendon.net> Quoting CJ Parker (sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com): > Boy, just get busted one lousy time for sending > death threats to federal judges and the richest man > in the world, and everybody avoids you like the > plague... You've obviously learned that there's no accounting for taste. > Nobody replies to my CPukes Posts, NoBody sends me > any email... > ...well, Attila T. Hun sent a copy of the entire > Encyclopaedia Britannica to my Cellular Phone as > a Text Message, but that's because he a RealAssHole, > eh? > (It cost me $4,537.89 in phone charges, but I found > out that the Annual Average Rainfall in Bolivia is > 79.3 inches, and that Bolivia exports tin, eh? So > I guess it wasn't a total loss. Besides, now at least > I have something to read, since I CERTAINLY DON'T > HAVE ANY EMAIL TO READ, CAUSE NOBODY EVER SENDS ME > ANY, EH?) Sorry, guy. People who send email to known felons and fed molesters bring down the wrath of Right Thinking People upon themselves. You have no-one to blame other than yourself. > sonofgomez709 > "I Invented The [ANY] Key, But Micro$not *Stole* It!" > p.s. - AnyBody want to join my new Conspiracy? I need > a KingPin so I have someone to RatOut next time, eh? I'll let you know just as soon as I finish ratting out my parents. > p.p.s. - Bolivia also exports Columbian coffee, but > Columbia doesn't export Bolivian coffee. Go figure, > eh? Do they have coffee growers selling to the Fair Trade consortium down there? Regards, Steve -- ``If religion were nothing but an illusion and a sham, there could be no philosophy of it. The study of it would belong to abnormal psychology.... Religion cannot afford to claim exemption from philosophical enquiry. If it attempts to do so on the grounds of sanctity, it can only draw upon itself suspicion that it is afraid to face the music.'' -- H. J. Paton, "The Modern Predicament" From pcw at flyzone.com Fri Sep 7 12:17:21 2001 From: pcw at flyzone.com (Peter Wayner) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 15:17:21 -0400 Subject: Baltimore Digital Commerce Society-- Korhammer on Lava Trading, Oct 2 Message-ID: <200109071918.f87JIl908821@snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net> [ These guys are building a very cool, cross-exchange tool. It constantly keeps track of the bids and asks on a number of exchanges letting you send your business to where the prices are best. It's fascinating to watch the screen update the quotes in real time. This kind of semi-automated, trading assistance is bound to become more and more prevalent. I think Lava Trading is doing some of the most interesting stuff around. -Peter] Baltimore Digital Commerce Society Tuesday October 2, 12:30 Speaker: Richard Korhammer, CEO of Lava Trading (www.lavatrading.com) Topic: Networks as Markets-- Why Exchanges are Becoming Virtual Richard Korhammer is the CEO of LavaTrading, one of the startup companies in New York diving into cross-market arbitrage. Their network links together all of the important market makers in ECNs and keeps track of all bids and offers. Buyers and sellers using the technology automatically get pointers to the best price possible. Traders with large blocks of stock do substantially better because Lava Trading will break up their block to match it with the best price available across all of the markets. This cross-market arbitrage improves liquidity for the market and makes it simpler for traders with large blocks of stock to wade into the marketplace without leaving a wake. In his talk, Korhammer will explore how fast networking and sophisticated servers can supplement and potentially replace the old fashioned stock exchange. Traders won't need to come to one place or one exchange to search for the best price because the network can constantly sort through all buyers and sellers. Korhammer believes that adding intelligence to the network and the servers supporting is more efficient than requiring traders to manually manage an otherwise complicated marketplace. Will these cross-exchange tools supplant the exchange? Will they eventually become the exchange? Will the disintermediation eventually make all trading a transparent event? Location: 11 West Mount Vernon Place, Baltimore, MD Directions: The Engineering Society lies in the shadow of Baltimore's Washington monument in the center of town. From downtown, take Charles St north to the monument. The Society is to the left on Monument Street. From the north, take 83 south to Maryland Avenue exit. Follow Maryland Avenue south until Monument Street. The Society is to the left. Or look at this map: http://maps.yahoo.com/py/maps.py?BFCat=&Pyt=Tmap&newFL=Use+Address+Below&add r=11+Mount+Vernon+Place&csz=Baltimore%2C+MD+21201&country=us&Get%07Map=Get+M ap Cost: $14 for a lunch buffet Questions: pcw at flyzone.com From pcw at flyzone.com Fri Sep 7 12:32:07 2001 From: pcw at flyzone.com (Peter Wayner) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 15:32:07 -0400 Subject: Baltimore Digital Commerce Society-- Korhammer on Lava Trading, Oct 2 Message-ID: [Hey Balto Digital Commerce Attendees. Welcome back from the long summer. Our first talk for the fall is scheduled for October 2n. These guys are building a very cool, cross-exchange tool. It constantly keeps track of the bids and asks on a number of exchanges letting you send your business to where the prices are best. It's fascinating to watch the screen update the quotes in real time. This kind of semi-automated, trading assistance is bound to become more and more prevalent. I think Lava Trading is doing some of the most interesting stuff around. So, come check it out if you can. Please circulate think. -Peter] Baltimore Digital Commerce Society Tuesday October 2, 12:30 Speaker: Richard Korhammer, CEO of Lava Trading (www.lavatrading.com) Topic: Networks as Markets-- Why Exchanges are Becoming Virtual Richard Korhammer is the CEO of LavaTrading, one of the startup companies in New York diving into cross-market arbitrage. Their network links together all of the important market makers in ECNs and keeps track of all bids and offers. Buyers and sellers using the technology automatically get pointers to the best price possible. Traders with large blocks of stock do substantially better because Lava Trading will break up their block to match it with the best price available across all of the markets. This cross-market arbitrage improves liquidity for the market and makes it simpler for traders with large blocks of stock to wade into the marketplace without leaving a wake. In his talk, Korhammer will explore how fast networking and sophisticated servers can supplement and potentially replace the old fashioned stock exchange. Traders won't need to come to one place or one exchange to search for the best price because the network can constantly sort through all buyers and sellers. Korhammer believes that adding intelligence to the network and the servers supporting is more efficient than requiring traders to manually manage an otherwise complicated marketplace. Will these cross-exchange tools supplant the exchange? Will they eventually become the exchange? Will the disintermediation eventually make all trading a transparent event? Location: 11 West Mount Vernon Place, Baltimore, MD Directions: The Engineering Society lies in the shadow of Baltimore's Washington monument in the center of town. From downtown, take Charles St north to the monument. The Society is to the left on Monument Street. From the north, take 83 south to Maryland Avenue exit. Follow Maryland Avenue south until Monument Street. The Society is to the left. Or look at this map: http://maps.yahoo.com/py/maps.py?BFCat=&Pyt=Tmap&newFL=Use+Address+Below&add r=11+Mount+Vernon+Place&csz=Baltimore%2C+MD+21201&country=us&Get%07Map=Get+M ap Cost: $14 for a lunch buffet To reserve your seat: write pcw at flyzone.com Questions: pcw at flyzone.com --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From support at adcritic.com Fri Sep 7 12:56:47 2001 From: support at adcritic.com (AdCritic.com Support) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 15:56:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Thanks for registering with AdCritic.com!! Message-ID: <200109071956.PAA94522@hot.adcritic.com> ======================== Welcome to AdCritic.com! ======================== Username: cypher34534 Thank you for registering with AdCritic.com!! In order to confirm your registration, please click the link below. This will complete your registration and you will be a full member of Adcritic.com. http://www.adcritic.com/login/register/validate/?auth=MTU0NDU2LUtxeTFJ Thank you, The AdCritic.com staff PS: Want to see our ads 10 to 50 times faster than you do now? Try our monthly subscription with full-screen ads and unlimited high-speed access. More info at http://www.adcritic.com/submissions/highspeed/ From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Fri Sep 7 16:37:02 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 16:37:02 -0700 Subject: US v Miller (was Re: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change Message-ID: <200109072337.f87Nb2Q77036@mailserver1.hushmail.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 523 bytes Desc: not available URL: From conference-info at corp.witi.com Fri Sep 7 16:46:54 2001 From: conference-info at corp.witi.com (2001 WITI Conference) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 16:46:54 -0700 Subject: 2001 WITI Boston Conference Message-ID: Dear Professionals: The WITI team would like to notify you of exciting WITI programs: - Annual Boston Professional Women's Summit & Expo (October 24 & 25) - Special Early Bird Offer (Deadline: September 21, 2001) - Plus: Executive Women's Forum (October 24, 2001) - Plus: WITI Invent Center Launch (October 24, 2001) - Leadership Xcellence Assessment Tools Now Available! http://witi.com Attend the Annual Professional Women's Summit & Expo October 24 & 25 - Boston, MA Presented by WITI (Women in Technology International) WITI's Professional Women's Summit & Expo is the country's largest premier conference for top level women who utilize technology in their businesses and professions. Why you should attend:  The summit offers you a two-day dynamic, accelerated program that provides you with the essential tools, opportunities, insights and connections to achieve your professional goals. Hear some of the most powerful women in the industry, such as: - Jessica Lipnack & Jeffrey Stamps, Ph.D., CEO and Chief Scientist of NetAge/Virtualteams - Isabel Maxwell, President Emeritus, Commtouch, Inc. - Dr. Ruth Simmons, President, Brown University Sessions include: - Women on Wall Street - Women Leaders in IT: Your Time is Now - Leading to Win: Thriving in a Time of RiskSmart Partnering - Positioning Your High Tech Company in the Global Marketplace - The Art of Negotiation: Lessons I Learned the Hard Way - Strategic Analysis for the Modern Workplace - and much, much more... Register before September 21 to receive a $200 discount off of the $975 at-the-door price! Early registration for a two-day pass is $775. WITI Members receive an additional $125 discount. To register, please call WITI at 1-800-334-9484 or register online at http://registration.witi.com/center/conferences/boston/regform.shtml WITI also Presents: WITI Invent Center Launch October 24, 2001 4:30 - 6:30 p.m. Join WITI and the 5 College Consortium (Smith, U. Mass., Mount Holyoke, Amherst, and Hampshire College) as they celebrate the launch of the first WITI Invent Center on the Smith College campus. This program is designed to increase women's advancement through technology in the university. You will have the opportunity to hear Dr. Ruth Simmons give the opening speech at the ceremony. Dr. Simmons is the recently appointed President of Brown University, the first African-American woman to head any top-ranked American college or university. Prior to her role at Brown, she assumed the presidency of Smith College in 1995. Under her leadership, Smith College announced the opening of the Engineering and Technology program From ravage at ssz.com Fri Sep 7 15:00:08 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 17:00:08 -0500 Subject: kuro5hin.org || Direct Democracy: A valid future? Message-ID: <3B994367.C52F5413@ssz.com> And who works?... http://www.Kuro5hin.org/story/2001/9/7/7425/32851 -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Fri Sep 7 16:27:05 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 18:27:05 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Baltimore Digital Commerce Society-- Korhammer on Lava Trading, Oct 2 (fwd) Message-ID: -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 17:24:14 -0400 From: "R. A. Hettinga" To: Digital Bearer Settlement List , dcsb at ai.mit.edu, cryptography at wasabisystems.com, coderpunks at toad.com, e$@vmeng.com Subject: Baltimore Digital Commerce Society-- Korhammer on Lava Trading, Oct 2 --- begin forwarded text From golfledger at THEGOLFLEDGER.ROI1.NET Fri Sep 7 15:40:34 2001 From: golfledger at THEGOLFLEDGER.ROI1.NET (Golf Ledger) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 18:40:34 -0400 Subject: September 07, 2001 Newsletter Message-ID: <200109072239.f87MdX431810@ak47.algebra.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 16578 bytes Desc: not available URL: From golfledger at THEGOLFLEDGER.ROI1.NET Fri Sep 7 15:40:34 2001 From: golfledger at THEGOLFLEDGER.ROI1.NET (Golf Ledger) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 18:40:34 -0400 Subject: September 07, 2001 Newsletter Message-ID: <200109072256.PAA04414@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 16578 bytes Desc: not available URL: From freematt at coil.com Fri Sep 7 16:22:14 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 19:22:14 -0400 Subject: View Video of Infocom Raid News Conference in Texas Message-ID: Source: Direct Submission Organization: CAIR Email: cair1 at ix.netcom.com Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 16:51:49 -0400 (EDT) Title: CAIR-NET: View Video of Infocom Raid News Conference in Texas TEXT: In the Name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful ----- AMERICAN MUSLIM NEWS BRIEFS - 9/7/2001 ----- HEADLINES: * VIEW VIDEO OF INFOCOM RAID NEWS CONFERENCE IN TEXAS * WIRE SERVICE COVERAGE OF MUSLIM REACTION TO INFOCOM RAID: 1) MUSLIM GROUPS PROTEST FBI RAID OF INTERNET BUSINESS SUSPECTED OF TERRORIST TIES (AP) 2) US MUSLIMS BLAST SEARCH OF MIDEAST INTERNET PROVIDER (AFP) 3) FBI DENIES BIAS AS US RAID SHUTS ARABIC WEB SITES (Reuters) * RACISM CAN MAKE YOU CRAZY (Globe and Mail) * REP. BERKLEY (D-NV) DENIES MAKING COMMENTS ATTRIBUTED TO HER IN TEL AVIV NEWSPAPER (Las Vegas Review-Journal) * PAUL FINDLEY APPEARS ON BOOK TV 9/8 * SHIN BET STILL TORTURES PALESTINIANS * PRO-PALESTINIAN POLITICAL CARTOON (Philadelphia Inquirer) * KILEY ATTACKS MURDOCH'S FRIENDSHIP WITH ISRAEL (Guardian) ----- VIEW VIDEO OF INFOCOM RAID NEWS CONFERENCE IN TEXAS To view the video of yesterday's conference by Muslim leaders outside Infocom's headquarters in Richardson, Texas, go to http://www.cair-net.org or http://www.islamicity.com/. Local media coverage improved dramatically following the news conference. NOTE: Many of Infocom's servers are now back online. ----- WIRE SERVICE COVERAGE OF MUSLIM REACTION TO INFOCOM RAID MUSLIM GROUPS PROTEST FBI RAID OF INTERNET BUSINESS SUSPECTED OF TERRORIST TIES By DAVID KOENIG, The Associated Press, 9/6/2001 As federal agents conducted a second day of searching an Internet company as part of an anti-terrorism campaign, Muslim leaders charged authorities acted on scant evidence and anti-Arab stereotypes... ...Mark Enoch, a lawyer hired by InfoCom after the raid began early Wednesday, said the company had no links to terrorist groups and was cooperating with the FBI, even helping agents navigate the computer system. A search warrant requested by federal authorities was sealed by U.S. Magistrate Judge Paul Stickney of Dallas, and agents outside Infocom's offices declined to comment on the investigation. InfoCom's Internet operations manager said agents cut off Internet service to the company's 500 clients... ...Nihad Awad, executive director of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, linked the raid with U.S. opposition to international efforts to criticize Israel's handling of the conflict with Palestinians. "We suspect that all these attempts are to please the Israeli government but not to protect the U.S. interests," Awad said. "Siding with Israel, a racist country and state, I think does not do us any good." Others viewed the raid broadly as the product of anti-Muslim bias. "We have deep concerns that this once again is an attempt to rush to judgment and to marginalize the American Muslim community simply because ... many of them are immigrants," said Mahdi Bray, political adviser to the Muslim Public Affairs Council. "There is a pattern of bias that often permeates all of these types of investigations." Bailey declined to say why authorities targeted InfoCom, but she denied any bias... --- US MUSLIMS BLAST SEARCH OF MIDEAST INTERNET PROVIDER Agence France-Presse, 9/07/2001 WASHINGTON, Sept 6 (AFP) - US Muslim leaders Thursday condemned a federal search at the Texas offices of a Middle East Internet service provider, calling it part of an "anti-Muslim witch hunt..." ...The search disrupted satellite television service in the United Arab Emirates, according to reports from Dubai. "American Muslims view yesterday's action as just one of a long list of attempts by the pro-Israel lobby to intimidate and silence all those who wish to see Palestinian Muslims and Christians free themselves of a brutal apartheid-like occupation," a coalition of nearly a dozen Muslim groups said in a statement. "We believe the genesis of this raid lies not in Washington, but in Tel Aviv." Among the groups voicing their discontent were the American Muslim Council, American Muslims for Jerusalem and the Council on American- Islamic Relations. One of InfoCom's clients was the Qatar-based Al-Jazeera satellite television network, the coalition said, a popular Arabic news outlet frequently criticized by Israel for its reporting on the situation in the Palestinian territories. --- FBI DENIES BIAS AS US RAID SHUTS ARABIC WEB SITES By Marcus Kabel, Reuters, 9/6/2001 DALLAS, Sept 6 (Reuters) - An 80-strong U.S. terrorism task force raided the Texas-based host of Arabic Web sites, including that of the Arab world's leading independent news channel, prompting charges on Thursday of an "anti- Muslim witchhunt." But the FBI, which took part in the raid on Wednesday at privately held InfoCom Corp., in the Dallas suburb of Richardson, denied any anti-Arab bias and said it was executing an unspecified federal search warrant... ...Several American Islamic groups condemned the search as "an anti-Muslim witchhunt promoted by the pro-Israel lobby in America," according to a statement from 10 organizations, including the Muslim Public Affairs Council. "We are deeply concerned that there is a pattern of stereotyping that permeates all these types of investigations. There is a marginalization of the American- Muslim population," Mahdi Bray of the Los Angeles-based council said at a news conference outside the closed InfoCom office. The FBI denied the raid was any kind of witchhunt. "We were executing a search warrant as part of a criminal investigation. It had nothing to do with anti-Islamic or anti-Palestinian or anti-Middle East issues or anything like that," said special agent Lori Bailey, spokeswoman for the Dallas FBI office... ----- RACISM CAN MAKE YOU CRAZY By Rick Salutin, Globe and Mail, 9/7/2001 http://theglobeandmail.com Search using the term "racism." ...Take the Mideast. For a Palestinian under occupation, any daily trip -- to shop, work or visit - can turn into a hell of delay, humiliation and possible death, in his homeland! It could drive any of us mad. Every case of Canadian road rage has less provocation. As for Israel, its behaviour sadly mirrors much of what was inflicted on Jews by others in the past. I don't consider this statement controversial. We know most abusers were abused. Their sense of justification is genuine..." ACTION REQUESTED: Contact Rick Salutin at rsalutin at globeandmail.ca to thank him for his courageous article. Please cc the Globe and Mail at raddis at globeandmail.ca and Canada at cair-net.org on all correspondence. ----- BERKLEY DENIES MAKING COMMENTS ATTRIBUTED TO HER IN TEL AVIV NEWSPAPER By TONY BATT, Las Vegas Review-Journal, 9/6/2001 http://www.lvrj.com/lvrj_home/2001/Sep-06-Thu-2001/news/16937403.html WASHINGTON -- Rep. Shelley Berkley, D-Nev., described Israel as "our country" during a meeting last week with a top Palestinian official and said Palestinians could leave if they didn't like living under Israeli control, according to a Tel Aviv newspaper columnist's account of a meeting last week including the lawmaker and a top Palestinian official. Berkley, who aides said has been receiving angry calls from constituents after a Muslim group started circulating the report, on Wednesday, denied making the comments. The column ran Tuesday in Ha'aretz, one of Israel's leading newspapers. "I think there obviously was a mistake in the translation," Berkley said. "There was no press at this meeting, and there were several inaccuracies in the story..." ...Written by Akiva Eldar, the column in Ha'aretz described an exchange at a meeting involving Berkley, other lawmakers, and Saeb Erekat, the chief Palestinian negotiator in talks with Israel. Eldar, a former Washington bureau chief for Ha'aretz, did not quote sources for the information. He could not be reached Wednesday night. "Berkley reprimanded Dr. Saeb Erekat for daring to use the term `occupation,' reminding him that `this is our country' and `we' won the war," Eldar wrote. The column went on to say Berkley rejected Erekat's suggestion that he should be given full civil rights by Israel. Berkley told him, the column said, that if the Palestinians don't like the present situation, she is not going to prevent them from leaving. The American Muslims for Jerusalem, a small Washington lobby group critical of Israel, issued a statement Tuesday criticizing Berkley for being "slavishly supportive of Israel." CONTACT: (As always, be firm, but POLITE.) The Honorable Shelley Berkley U.S. House of Representatives 439 Cannon House Office Building Washington, D.C. 20515-4708 TEL:(202) 225-5965 FAX: (202) 225-3119 Toll free: (877) 409-2488 ----- PAUL FINDLEY APPEARS ON BOOK TV Silent No More: Confronting America's False Images of Islam Saturday, September 8 at 8:55 pm and Sunday, September 9 at 10:00 am http://www.booktv.org/General/index.asp?segID=1701&schedID=81 Former Congressman Paul Findley (R-IL) discusses his book "Silent No More: Confronting America's False Images of Islam" before an audience at Barnes & Noble Bookseller in Springfield, Illinois. The book discusses how Muslims are perceived in America. The author asserts that most Americans believe Muslims to be fanatics or terrorists, which he describes as a false image of Islam. After the presentation, Mr. Findley answered questions from members of the audience. ----- SHIN BET STILL TORTURES PALESTINIANS By Moshe Reinfeld, Ha'aretz, 9/6/2001 A report issued Thursday by the Public Committee Against Torture in Israel says that the "defensive barrier" set up by the High Court of Justice two years ago, against the torture of Palestinian suspects during interrogation, is ineffective. The organization argues that the court left practical gaps in its ruling, which allow the Shin Bet security service to continue torturing prisoners by depriving them of sleep and by keeping them bound for long periods... ----- KILEY ATTACKS MURDOCH'S FRIENDSHIP WITH ISRAEL By Jason Deans, The Guardian (UK), 9/5/2001 http://media.guardian.co.uk/presspublishing/story/0,7495,547296,00.html Sam Kiley, the former Times Africa correspondent, has spoken out for the first time about why he quit the paper, blaming its allegedly pro-Israeli censorship of his reporting on the latest Middle East conflict. Mr Kiley said Times owner Rupert Murdoch's close friendship with Israeli prime minister Ariel Sharon, and heavy investment in Israel were the reasons behind his decision to resign... ----- PRO-PALESTINIAN POLITICAL CARTOON http://inq.philly.com/content/inquirer/2001/09/06/art/AUTH0906.htm ----- CAIR Council on American-Islamic Relations 453 New Jersey Avenue, S.E. Washington, D.C. 20003 Tel: 202-488-8787 Fax: 202-488-0833 Page: 202-490-5653 E-mail: cair1 at ix.netcom.com URL: http://www.cair-net.org ----- TO SUBSCRIBE: Join CAIR-NET by sending the message "subscribe cair-net" (without the quotation marks) to majordomo at list.cair-net.org. TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Leave CAIR-NET by sending the message "unsubscribe cair-net" (without the quotation marks) to majordomo at list.cair-net.org. NOTE: If you have difficulty unsubscribing, send a message to cair1 at ix.netcom.com with the subject line "Manual CAIR-NET Unsubscribe." ----- ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************** From a3495 at cotse.com Fri Sep 7 16:27:40 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 19:27:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Supergenius: The Mega-Worlds of Herman Kahn Message-ID: Supergenius: The Mega-Worlds of Herman Kahn by B. Bruce-Briggs North American Policy Press. 490 pp. Reviewed by Dan Seligman ...somehow or other, Herman Kahn (1922-83) has become a forgotten figure. But can that really be? Kahn was a "policy intellectual" of unquestioned genius and dazzling quotability who was very much onstage and telling the world what to think about its major problems for something like a quarter- century. He had also helped develop the hydrogen bomb, and later came up with the idea for a Doomsday Machine, immortalized, though wrenched out of context, in Stanley Kubricks 1963 movie wherein the machines inventor is called Dr. Strangelove. He was the author or coauthor of hundreds of newspaper and magazine articles and of sixteen books, every one of which received reviews that were respectful even when hostile. And, as Bruce- Briggs states correctly, he had thousands of "chums" (I am identified as one of them), who viewed his talents with awe and found his personality magical, somehow combining elements of a high-speed computer, an eager-to- please four-year-old child, a borscht-belt comic, and Santa Claus. Early in his career, as a defense analyst at the RAND Corporation, Kahns briefingsthese were didactic lectures, densely factual and logically powerful but still informal, with endless asides, many of them hilarious, and much back-and-forth with the audiencewere a huge hit with the military. Later, when he was running the Hudson Institute, the think tank he founded in 1961, his subject matter expanded in all directions, and his public appearances attracted a wider following. He spoke without notes, typically for a couple of hours, and had his audiences alternately entranced and convulsed with laughter. Supergenius does a good job of capturing the spirit of these occasions, and also confirms what many long suspected: that much of what Kahn "wrote" was made up of edited transcripts of his talks. Bruce-Briggs, who had a good inside view of Kahn during several professional stints at Hudson, and was his co-author in a 1972 volume called Things to Come, has organized his book more or less chronologically but with an effort to segment particular dimensions of Kahns life. The somewhat quirky result is 67 sections, typically five or six pages in length, with headings like "The Soldier," "The Systems Analyst," "The Celebrity," "The Nipponologist," "The Neoconservative." (Actually, for most of his life Kahn was rather nonideological.) Bruce-Briggs is on balance strongly pro-Kahn, but, as indicated in some of the headings ("The Huckster," "The Kibitzer"), less than starry-eyed. TO THINK about Herman Kahn is to find yourself amazed about many matters, but three major themes stand out: his intelligence; his long-running, close- to-single-handed effort to make Americans think straight about thermonuclear war; and his remarkably successful forays into "futurology." A possible fourth entry would be his weight. As a young man, Kahn was merely stocky, but in the years of his greatest fame he kept putting on pounds, and must have been close to 375 when he died, quite suddenly, of a stroke. The weight seems to have induced symptoms of narcolepsy, and Supergenius has some appalling accounts of Kahn falling asleep and snoring uncontrollably in business meetings during his last few years (but still, somehow, managing to take in a lot of what was being said). Kahns career trajectory reflected the fact that he was smarterusually a lot smarterthan just about everyone else in his life. His parents were ambitious immigrants from Bialystok, but otherwise offered no discernible clues to the genetic basis of his off-the-charts braininess. As a young child, he was a speed-reader who needed (and created) multiple identities so that he could have more library cards and take out more books. A high- school know-it-all, he was once asked to read aloud a famous Latin oration, took a brief glance at the passage, then recited it without the book and offered to do it again, backwards. Drafted in 1943, Kahn was identified as a prodigy after he took the Armed Forces Qualification Test and was parked in a military "brain bank" in West Virginia. There he was made to study electrical engineering before being transferred to the signal corps and assigned to the China-Burma-India theater. After the war, his friend Sam Cohen (later famous as the main developer and promoter of the neutron bomb), successfully recruited him into RAND, and his career as a defense analyst unfolded rapidly. His early fame was based mainly on his devastating critique of U.S. military strategy in the thermonuclear age. His core objective, elaborated in On Thermonuclear War (1960) and again in Thinking about the Unthinkable (1962), was to make his countrymen understand that existing doctrine was disastrous. Its assumptions, based on the idea of a "balance of terror," were embodied in a nightmare scenario in which, as Kahn put it, somebody, presumably a Russian, "pushed all the buttons and then walked away from the table." The only thing deterring the Russians from such a massive and unrestrained attack was, supposedly, the realization that it would be matched in kindwhich would mean in turn that both countries would have committed suicide. That was the theory. Although Stanley Kubrick chose not to read him properly, Kahns Doomsday Machinea device set to blow up the planet automatically any time your country was attacked with nuclear weaponswas presented by him not as a rational strategy but as a caricature of this irrational posture. To tell the world that you equated nuclear weapons with national suicide was, he wrote, to invite blackmailand, given the Soviet superiority in conventional arms, it left us with very few military options in the face of aggressive behavior short of an attack on the United States. The point of all this thinking about the unthinkable was to find serious alternatives to annihilation and surrender. Kahn argued that the alternatives were there. Any thermonuclear war would almost certainly begin as a limited and not as an "all-out" attack, for the simple reason that the attacker would want the other side to have incentives for restraint. With that in mind, Kahn generated an avalanche of data to demonstrate that civil defense and other damage-limiting measures could leave our country still viable even after most imaginable thermonuclear wars. And he also argued that serious planning for such warsincluding a "pre-attack mobilization base," some ballistic-missile defense, and what he called a "not incredible first-strike capability"would itself serve as a deterrent to provocative behavior, and leave us less susceptible to blackmail. Although Kahn was not alone in making this casehis RAND colleague Albert Wohlstetter was a major allythere is no doubt that his briefings and studies had a major impact on the Pentagons thinking in the 50s and 60s. AT ITS founding, the Hudson Institute was defense-oriented, and in the late 60s it was still receiving contracts for Vietnam-related research. Kahn was deeply involved in the Pentagons partially successful "Vietnamization" program, i.e., the effort to pacify the countryside and build up the South Vietnamese armed forces while preparing for American withdrawal. But by this time he and Hudson had also been drawn into a broad range of social- policy issues, which gradually coalesced into a discipline that came to be known as "futurology" (a term he disliked, even as he came to be identified as its prime exemplar). There is a mystery at the heart of this discipline. (There are also disagreements about whether it deserves the label "discipline.") The threshold question is whether it represents merely informed speculation about the future or a serious effort at forecasting. Kahn was clear about the need for the latter in the area of military technology, but in thinking about long-term social change, his approach seems much more hedged. One major Kahn exercise in futurology was The Year 2000, written with Anthony J. Wiener and published in 1967. (The analysis was Kahns, the writing was Wieners.) The authors warned readers up front that the "scenarios" being put forward should be taken only as "imaginative simulations of what might happen," and the subtitle identifies the study as "a framework for speculation." But I have trouble with this. As I read The Year 2000, the authors repeatedly leave their cautions in the dust to argue that some scenarios are, in fact, resoundingly plausible. An intriguing example is their argument for a continuing explosion in computer power and their rejection of the then-popular notion that such power was already approaching its physical limits. It is quite possible, they wrote, that computer capabilities would continue expanding by "a factor of ten every several years"a judgment consistent with Moores Law, which posits a doubling every 18 months or so. They also stated that "there will probably be computer consoles in every home," a projection that overstates todays reality even while managing to look remarkably prescient for 1967. I do not know how to construct a box score, but the "forecasts" in The Year 2000 look pretty good to me. One big error, quite unsurprising in itself, was to assume the durability of the Soviet Union, and the authors also possibly overrated the long-term dynamism of the Japanese economy (although it had close to twenty pretty good years after they wrote). But they were seldom misleading about other important matters. Their projection put year- 2000 world population around 6 billion, which appears to be just about right, and one of their preferred scenarios for U.S. gross national product per capita (they offer a couple of choices) works out to about $37,500 in todays dollarsalso right. The book foresaw relative peace and prosperity for the "older nations"i.e., Europe, the U.S. and Canada, and the Pacific Rim countries. It also bought wholeheartedly into the idea of a "post- industrial society," then being broached by Daniel Bell and others and now plainly surrounding us. Kahns record in futurology was also pretty good in later years. In 1980, in the face of headlines projecting oil prices of $60 a barrel or more, Kahn and William M. Brown, Hudsons energy economist, forecast that prices would instead collapse, which they did (from $40 a barrel to less than $20). With marvelous timing, Kahn produced a 1982 book about the U.S. economy called The Coming Boom. Is he really a forgotten figure today? I hope not. But it is true that the themes he was most associated with are themselves offstage. For better or worse, thermonuclear war has pretty much receded from public consciousness. And futurologylong-term, broad-gauge social forecastingseems unimaginably difficult in a world featuring successive stunners in biotechnology. Still, I would hate to think that the man who put "thinking about the unthinkable" into the public dialogue has fallen prey to a different syndrome: forgetting the unforgettable. At a minimum, he deserves the $15 download. * To order the book, you send a check or money order to North American Policy Press, Box 26, Idaville, PA 17337. For $15, you get the right to download it on your computer; for $20, you get three 31/2-inch diskettes incorporating the text; and for $40, you get a bound copy of the 490-page printout, of which about 100 pages are source notes. From freematt at coil.com Fri Sep 7 16:46:46 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 19:46:46 -0400 Subject: Your Face Is Not a Bar Code: Arguments Against Automatic Face Recognition in Public Places Message-ID: From mail07211 at mweb.com.cn Fri Sep 7 20:55:30 2001 From: mail07211 at mweb.com.cn (Darin) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 20:55:30 Subject: FREE CELL PHONE, FREE MEMBERSHIP, FREE SOFTWARE Message-ID: YOUR FREE MEMBERSHIP!! Plus get a Free Cell Phone and Free Computer Software To Help YOU Make MORE Money !! 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Lock in Your Position Today and we'll also give you promotional software that will increase traffic to ANY web site !! See for Yourself ! Grab your ID Here ! DON"T MISS OUT !! http://www.freewebco.net/freemem/ or http://www.freewebhostingcentral.cc/freemem --------------------------------------------------------- This is a one time mailing and you will not be contacted again and though it is not necessary to request removal, you may do so by sending an email to: mailto:mail0719 at btamail.net.cn?subject=Please_Remove_Bizopp From declan at well.com Fri Sep 7 18:22:25 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 21:22:25 -0400 Subject: FC: Sen. Hollings plans to introduce DMCA sequel: The SSSCA Message-ID: Text of SSSCA draft bill: http://www.politechbot.com/docs/hollings.090701.html Politech archive on DMCA: http://www.politechbot.com/cgi-bin/politech.cgi?name=dmca --- http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,46655,00.html New Copyright Bill Heading to DC By Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com) 4:19 p.m. Sep. 7, 2001 PDT WASHINGTON -- Music and record industry lobbyists are quietly readying an all-out assault on Congress this fall in hopes of dramatically rewriting copyright laws. With the help of Fritz Hollings (D-S.C.), the powerful chairman of the Senate Commerce committee, they hope to embed copy-protection controls in nearly all consumer electronic devices and PCs. All types of digital content, including music, video and e-books, are covered. The Security Systems Standards and Certification Act (SSSCA), scheduled to be introduced by Hollings, backs up this requirement with teeth: It would be a civil offense to create or sell any kind of computer equipment that "does not include and utilize certified security technologies" approved by the federal government. It also creates new federal felonies, punishable by five years in prison and fines of up to $500,000. Anyone who distributes copyrighted material with "security measures" disabled or has a network-attached computer that disables copy protection is covered. Hollings' draft bill, which Wired News obtained on Friday, represents the next round of the ongoing legal tussle between content holders and their opponents, including librarians, programmers and open-source advocates. [...] ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. Declan McCullagh's photographs are at http://www.mccullagh.org/ To subscribe to Politech: http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- End forwarded message ----- From declan at well.com Fri Sep 7 18:24:51 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 21:24:51 -0400 Subject: FC: Text of draft Security Systems Standards and Certification Act Message-ID: Wired News article on SSSCA: http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,46655,00.html --- http://www.politechbot.com/docs/hollings.090701.html Text of Security Systems Standards and Certification Act Sponsors: Sen. Fritz Hollings (D-S.C.), chairman of the Senate Commerce committee, and Sen. Ted Stevens (R-Alaska). Draft dated August 6, 2001. This bill has not been introduced as of September 7, 2001. Keystroked by Declan McCullagh, all typos his. Comments in [brackets] are his. The bill is 19 pages long; much of the text is summarized and placed in brackets. _________________________________________________________________ Title I -- Security System Standards Sec. 101: Prohibition of Certain Devices (a) In General -- It is unlawful to manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide or otherwise traffic in any interactive digital device that does not include and utilize certified security technologies that adhere to the security system standards adopted under section 104. (b) Exception -- Subsection (a) does not apply to the offer for sale or provision of, or other trafficking in, any previously-owned interactive digital device, if such device was legally manufactured or imported, and sold, prior to the effective date of regulations adopted under section 104 and not subsequently modified in violation of subsection (a) or 103(a). Sec. 102: Preservation of the Integrity of Security An interactive computer service shall store and transmit with integrity any security measure associated with certified security techologies that is used in connection with copyrighted material or other protected content such service transmits or stores. Sec. 103: Prohibited Acts (a) Removal or Alteration of Security -- No person may -- (1) remove or alter any certified security technology in an interactive digital device; or (2) transmit or make available to the public any copyrighted material or other protected content where the security measure associated with a certified security technology has been removed or altered. [Summary: Personal TV/cable/satellite time-shifting copies normally must be allowed by certified security technologies] Sec. 104: Adoption of Security System Standards [Summary: The private sector has 12 months to agree on a standard, or the Secretary of Commerce will step in. Industry groups that can participate: "representatives of interactive digital device manufacturers and representatives of copyright owners." If industry can agree, the secretary will turn their standard into a regulation; if not, normal government processes apply and NTIA takes the lead. The standard can be later modified. The secretary must certify technologies that adhere to those standards. Also: "The secretary shall certify only those conforming technologies that are available for licensing on reasonable and nondiscriminatory terms." FACA, a federal sunshine law, does not apply, and an antitrust exemption is included.] Sec. 108: Enforcement The provisions of section 1203 and 1204 of title 17, United States Code, shall apply to any violation of this title as if -- (1) a violation of section 101 or 103(a)(1) of this Act were a violation of section 1201 of title 17, United States Code; and (2) a violation of section 102 or section 103(a)(2) of this Act were a violation of section 1202 of that title. Sec. 109. Definitions In this title: (1) Certified security technology -- The term "certified security technology" means a security technology certified by the Secretary of Commerce under section 105. (2) Interactive computer service -- The term "interactive computer service" has the meaning given that term in section 230(f) of the Communications Act of 1984 (47 U.S.C. 230(f)). [Note: According to 47 U.S.C. 230(f), an "interactive computer service" means "any information service, system, or access software provider that provides or enables computer access by multiple users to a computer server, including specifically a service or system that provides access to the Internet and such systems operated or services offered by libraries or educational institutions."] (3) Interactive digital device -- The term "interactive digital device" means "any machine, device, product, software, or technology, whether or not included with or as part of some other machine, device, product, software, or technology, that is designed, marketed or used for the primary purpose of, and that is capable of, storing, retrieving, processing, performing, transmitting, receiving, or copying information in digital form." (4) Secretary -- The term "Secretary" means the Secretary of Commerce [Takes effect at the date of enactment, except for sections that wait for federal standard.] Title II -- Internet Security Initiatives [Summary: Creates 25-member federal "Computer Security Partnership Council." Funds NIST computer security program at $50 million starting in FY2001, increasing by $10 million a year through FY2006. Funds computer security training program starting at $15 million in FY2001. Creates federal "computer security awards." Requires NIST to encourage P3P and similar privacy standards] _________________________________________________________________ Penalties summarized (by Declan): Criminal penalties apply to violations of sec. 102 or 103(a)(2). That includes the "interactive computer service shall store and transmit" without removal section, and the distribute "any copyrighted material or other protected content where the security measure associated with a certified security technology has been removed or altered." The criminal penalties are: "(1) shall be fined not more than $500,000 or imprisoned for not more than 5 years, or both, for the first offense; and (2) shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned for not more than 10 years, or both, for any subsequent offense." Only someone who violates the law "willfully and for purposes of commercial advantage or private financial gain" can be convicted. Civil penalties apply to violations of sec. 101 or 103(a)(1). That includes the section talking about how it's unlawful to make systems without security measures, and how nobody may "remove or alter any certified security technology in an interactive digital device." The civil penalties include injunctions in federal court, actual damages, and statutory damages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. Declan McCullagh's photographs are at http://www.mccullagh.org/ To subscribe to Politech: http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- End forwarded message ----- From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Fri Sep 7 21:30:50 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 21:30:50 -0700 Subject: Sen. Hollings plans to introduce DMCA sequel: The SSSCA Message-ID: <200109080430.f884UoW14385@mailserver1.hushmail.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 780 bytes Desc: not available URL: From declan at well.com Fri Sep 7 18:51:53 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 21:51:53 -0400 Subject: Sen. Hollings plans to introduce DMCA sequel: The SSSCA Message-ID: <20010907215153.F32575@cluebot.com> ----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh ----- From declan at well.com Fri Sep 7 18:52:12 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 21:52:12 -0400 Subject: Text of draft Security Systems Standards and Certification Act Message-ID: <20010907215212.G32575@cluebot.com> ----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh ----- From cypherpunks at toad.com Fri Sep 7 22:34:54 2001 From: cypherpunks at toad.com (cypherpunks at toad.com) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 22:34:54 Subject: Taboox Extreme - Adults Only Time:10:34:54 PM Message-ID: <200109071512.IAA03326@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 719 bytes Desc: not available URL: From die at die.com Fri Sep 7 19:43:06 2001 From: die at die.com (Dave Emery) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 22:43:06 -0400 Subject: Frenchalon.... Message-ID: <20010907224306.D20890@die.com> Paris Weekly Details French Electronic 'Espionnage' Abilities EUP20010406000153 Paris Le Nouvel Observateur (Internet Version-WWW) in French 05 Apr 01 [Article by Vincent Jauvert: "Espionage -- How France Listens to the Whole World"] [FBIS Translated Text] It is one of the largest tapping centers in the world. At this secret base protected by watchtowers, police dogs and electrified barbed wire, 13 immense parabolic antennas spy day and night on all the international communications transiting through the satellites they monitor. Where is this base whose photo Le Nouvel Observateur has published here? In the United States? In Russia? No, in the Perigord region, on the Domme plateau, next to Sarlat airport. The site is officially (and modestly) referred to as the "radio center." Here, the French spy service, the DGSE [General Directorate for External Security], monitors hundreds of thousands -- millions? -- of telephone calls, e-mails, files, and faxes on a daily basis. This is the main site for the French Republic's "big ears." It is not the only one. Like the United States and the English- speaking countries with close ties to it, France has over the past ten years set up a global interception network. Le Nouvel Observateur can confirm the existence -- and publish photos -- of three other DGSE "satellite" tapping bases. One -- code- named "Fregate" -- is hidden in the Guyanese forest, at the heart of the Kourou space center. The other, completed in 1998, is attached to the side of the Dziani Dzaha crater on the French island of Mayotte in the Indian Ocean. Both are managed jointly with the BND (Bundesnachrichtendienst), the German secret service. The third center is located in the western suburbs of Paris, on the Orgeval plateau, at Alluets-le-Roi. A total of about 30 antennas "cover" nearly the entire globe, with the exception of the Siberian North and a part of the Pacific. There will soon be other stations. Expanding its "satellite" tapping network is one of the DGSE's "priorities," the rapporteur for the 2001 defense budget, Jean-Michel Boucheron, writes. The French secret service has more resources available every year for this purpose. A new station is being built on the Albion plateau, where nuclear missiles were stored before the silos were dismantled; a fifth is planned for the Tontouta naval air base in New Caledonia. Of course, this network is -- and will remain -- much less powerful and efficient than the US system on which it is modeled, one which has often been discussed in recent months and is commonly referred to as "Echelon." The American NSA [National Security Agency] is 30 times richer than its French counterpart, the technical directorate of the DGSE. The former employs 38,000 people, the latter 1,600. The smaller Frenchelon," as the Americans and their partners call it, is no less of a threat to privacy. Including that of the French. Here is why: When they are transmitted by one of the satellites monitored by the Domme, Kourou, or Mayotte bases, our communications with other countries or the DOM-TOM [French Overseas Dominions and Territories] may be intercepted, copied, and disseminated by the DGSE, without any monitoring commission having any say in the matter. None! A situation that is unique in the West. Every democratic country that has equipped itself with satellite tapping services has set up safeguards -- laws and monitoring bodies -- to protect its citizens from the curiosity of the "big ears." Every one, led by Germany and the United States. But not France. Nonetheless, our country has been spying on communications satellites for 30 years. The SDECE [Foreign Intelligence and Counterintelligence Service] set up its first parabolic antenna at Domme, at the site of a small radio interception center, in 1974. The antenna measured 25 centimeters in diameter and still exists. Another followed soon afterwards. "At the beginning, there were only a few satellites, the Intelsats," explains a veteran of the technical directorate. "We were able to 'suck up' a large portion of international traffic." However, in 1980, as the explosion in global telephony began, more and more satellites were put into orbit: Eutelsat, Molniya, Inmarsat, Panamsat, Arabsat. "We were quickly overwhelmed," recounts a former senior official. "The Domme center found itself under-equipped, ridiculous -- and we at the DGSE were a laughingstock for our American and British colleagues." In 1984, the head of the secret service, Admiral Lacoste, pressed Francois Mitterrand: "We need another interception station." France, he claimed, had an ideal site for this type of operation: the Kourou space center. Ideal? It was located very near the Equator, that is, in the best possible spot for listening in on communications satellites, nearly all of which are geostationary. The base would be located a few kilometers from the Ariane launching pad, meaning that its antennas would not attract attention. And moreover, economic espionage was the French secret service's new priority, and the United States its main target. And the satellites "covering" the United States were in orbit precisely above Guyana. To share the costs and reinforce the Franco-German alliance, Lacoste proposed bringing the BND into the adventure. The joint effort would be all the easier, the admiral explained, because the two services were already working together closely in interception stations in West Berlin and elsewhere in the FRG. The president gave the go-ahead in late 1984. The Rainbow Warrior [Greenpeace ship sunk by the DGSE in New Zealand] scandal, which arose a few months later, delayed the operation. The "Fregate" base would be inaugurated secretly in 1990 by Claude Silberzahn, the new director of the DGSE, and his German counterpart. Silberzahn wanted to go even farther. In his view, to reclaim its place among the major players, the DGSE needed new stations. The Gulf War gave him new arguments. American spies' technical exploits in Iraq were breathtaking. Francois Mitterrand and Prime Minister Michel Rocard were convinced. Silberzahn was authorized to launch a wide-ranging ten-year investment plan. He modernized the Domme center, bought a Cray supercomputer, and had the first parabolic antennas installed at Alluets-le-Roi, at a base previously reserved for the interception of radio waves. Finally, with the BND, he launched the site on Mayotte. This French territory in the Comoros archipelago is also close to the Equator. The tapping center would be located on Petite-Terre, a miniscule island where the Foreign Legion already had a base. From Mayotte, the DGSE's technical directorate could better "cover" Africa, the Middle East, and Asia, the up-and-coming continent. Completing the project would take five years. Sordid stories of cheated-on husbands are said to have slowed down the work. Today, the Republic's "big ears" have, as we have already said, 30 antennas on three continents. These mobile antennas can change direction several times a day, depending on the schedule or objectives of the service. All countries are subject to tapping, even allies. Member countries of the European Union too? "Of course," says the official. "Thanks to these satellites, we can spy on everyone where they live. No crazy plots, no risk of diplomatic incidents. This is why we invested so much." Which satellites are priority targets? "The ones that can provide us with the most political and economic information," says an expert. The Inmarsats, for example. Thanks to these satellites, anyone can telephone or send an e-mail or fax to (almost) anywhere on earth. All it takes is a little suitcase weighing two kilos. At its beginnings in 1982, subscribers to this service were mainly professional sailors and oil companies. Then the customer base expanded to include wealthy yachtsmen. "What a windfall for economic espionage! You cannot imagine the things these businessmen say 'in clear' over their boat telephones," a specialist explains. "They think they are safe in the middle of the ocean. They talk about contracts, projects, discoveries." And that is not all. The Inmarsat company has signed contracts with most major airlines and 650 business aircraft. When a passenger makes a telephone call in flight, it transits via one of these satellites ... to the satisfaction of the "big ears." Inmarsat is also used on the ground, most often in the earth's "hot spots," where telephone equipment is poor. The company has a total of 200,000 subscribers: journalists, diplomats, international civil servants, NGO officials, etc. "No very powerful computer is necessary to spy on this choice clientele," says an expert. "A maximum of 2,000 messages pass through an Inmarsat satellite simultaneously. This is ten to 50 times fewer than for the others." The others are the giants of global telephony: Intelsat, Eutelsat, PanAmSat. Several billion messages from every continent transit via these satellites every day. "It is impossible to ignore them," says an expert, "but difficult to process them as a whole. We have to choose the segments of the beam that interest us." And in particular, to identify the channels leased by the military, diplomats, or companies. Some companies use a new, inexpensive service known as VSAT: This network enables them to keep all their establishments throughout the world connected on a permanent basis. In Domme and Kourou, the DGSE "sucks up" traffic from Intelsat 801, which provides thousands of VSAT links between America and Europe. The big satellites also transmit the Internet. They have become highways -- backbones -- for the Web. Says one specialist, "10 percent of the traffic passes through them. This is not much, but we can intercept this 10 percent: The rest, which transits via optic fiber cables, is something else." Staff at the Mayotte center are impatiently awaiting the new Intelsat 902, which within a few months will be furnishing "backbones" in Africa, in Asia, and part of Russia. It will be positioned at 62 degrees east, just above the French island in the Indian Ocean. Other types of satellites targeted: Regional satellites, which "cover" only a portion of the planet. Like the Arabsats for the Middle East and North Africa. "Ah, the Arabsats!" sighs a former listener." "The information they provided us in the 1980s! On Qadafi during the Chad conflict or on Israel during the invasion of South Lebanon." Finally, there are the national satellites. Some countries are too poor and too large to set up a network of telephone cables throughout their territory. For internal communications, they use satellites: the Raduga in Russia, the Mabuhay in the Philippines, or the Dong Fang Hong in China. But the increase in the number of satellite operators -- there are more than 100 today! -- poses a problem for the DGSE. "Each one codes its beam and does not make the code for deciphering it public," says a former official. Obtaining the key requires all the secret service's resources. "Several methods exist, not all of them 'clean'," the expert continues. "You can negotiate with the operator. You say: 'France will give you part of its international traffic; in exchange, you give us this confidential protocol'." Another technique: "Bribe a company executive or promise him a medal." Yet another: "If you learn that a foreign secret service has this software, trade it for something else." You can also discreetly enter the operator's facility and steal the precious diskette. "The DGSE has a division that is very good at this type of burglary," says the expert. There remains the homemade solution: Discover the code yourself. "But that can take a long time. In the meantime, you miss a lot of things." For several months, one satellite has been a particular thorn in the side of French secret service engineers. It is Thuraya, launched last October by an Abu Dhabi company that offered its subscribers total coverage of mobile telephony in the Arab world. Its service will be operational in April. Its customers: senior Syrian officials, Libyan businessmen, Egyptian military officers. So many targets for the DGSE. "There is a catch," says the expert. "The Emirates are financing the operation, but Hughes, the American aerospace giant, is managing the system. And as concerns codes for the beam, Hughes knows a whole range of them. We have not yet found a solution." With greater or lesser difficulty, dozens of beams are thus sucked up every day by the DGSE's parabolic antennas. What happens afterwards? In cellars at the bases of these antennas, technicians and operators with "defense secrecy" clearance work in air- conditioned computer rooms. Grouped into day and night teams, some 200 work at Domme and Alluets-le-Roi, 40 or so at Mayotte and Kourou. The technicians scurry around in front of electronic control panels. They control the powerful equipment (amplifiers, demodulators, analyzers, decoders) that transforms satellite beams into faxes, e-mail, files, or voice messages. Their primary concern: deciphering encrypted communications, which is becoming more and more difficult. The operators, meanwhile, are seated in front of computer consoles. They check the automatic sorting of traffic. Only a few thousand intercepted messages reach secret service HQ on Boulevard Mortier in Paris each day. They are sent by optical fibers or protected radio links. The rest, the great majority, are thrown into an electronic trashcan. Selection is conducted on the basis of a dictionary of addresses and key words. "Addresses?" These are telephone numbers and e-mail addresses that the DGSE monitors constantly. Those of embassies, ministries, international organizations, NGOs, multinational companies -- the computer of the "big ears" holds several thousand from all over the world. When one of these addresses appears in the beam of a satellite being spied on, the communication is automatically recorded and sent to Paris. This type of surveillance has a name in tapping jargon: "routine." Key words? Another method of filtering flows of data. "A key word can be a proper name, a nickname, a chemical formula, a slang term, or an acronym," an expert explains. "We enter them into a file and wait." When one of these words appears, the computer goes into reverse and records the communication from the beginning. At the DGSE, this practice is known as "standby" or "trawling." "For e-mails, this computer sorting is very efficient," says another specialist. He adds: "Given the computers' capacities, we can in this way filter several million electronic messages a minute. A good search engine is all it takes. We need simply adapt it to our needs." It seems highly like that the DGSE uses the search tool developed by Lexiquest, a French company. When it comes to faxes, the sorting process is less efficient. Experts estimate the success rate at no more than 60 percent. Why so many failures? Because the computer does not "read" the fax directly. It must first be converted into bits by a character recognition program. If this phase is disrupted by transfer problems or illegible handwriting, the retranscribed fax will not make sense. It is lost to the "big ears." Despite these difficulties, the DGSE has always been one of the best spy services as concerns automatic processing of faxes -- hence its success in economic espionage. The situation is entirely different as regards speech. The DGSE has not developed techniques as effective as those of the NSA or Israel's Mossad. One expert confides, "Contrary to popular belief, it is very difficult to teach a computer to catch key words spoken during a telephone conversation 'on the fly'." Explanation: "Some people speak quickly, others slowly, some stammer, others have an accent. Result: The failure rate is very high." The French service is studying another sorting method that the Americans and Israelis have already developed: automatic transcription. The computer transcribes the entire telephone conversation, then a search engine finds the key words in the file that has thus been constituted. "Strange as it may seem, it is simpler to proceed like this." The Defense Ministry has just asked the best French speech processing laboratory, the Limsi in Orsay, to develop software for this purpose. After sorting comes listening. At the DGSE, several hundred people -- 300, 500? -- spend their days wearing headphones. "Keeping in mind that a good professional can process 50 to 100 conversations a day, you do the math!" says a veteran. The total is more than 15,000 a day or at least 5 million a year. Is the game worth the candle? This mass of information -- these millions of intercepted conversations, e-mails, or faxes -- is it really useful? The unanimous opinion is that "pearls," bits of secret information worthy of being transmitted to levels as high as that of the president of the Republic, are very rare. "A few dozen in the space of 20 years," says the former senior official. "And even then..." There were the cases, already cited, of Qadafi and Israel in the 1980s. Later, instructions for voting in the UN Security Council were intercepted. Recently, recordings of senior Serbian dignitaries have been transmitted to the Elysee [president's residence]. In fact, the real "gems" have other clients: several large French industrial groups. For two decades, the DGSE has been working in symbiosis with some 15 private or public firms. Between spies and bosses, it is a matter of give and take. The former provide economic and technological intelligence (the DGSE's specialized research service employs about 50 people). The latter furnish cover stories for agents on missions abroad. Former DGSE staffers who have been recruited by the firms involved serve as liaisons. At their former employer's HQ on Boulevard Mortier, they regularly take delivery of copies of faxes, e-mails, or draft contracts intercepted by tapping stations. The yield is sometimes excellent. "We often receive thanks from bosses," says the senior official. In 1998, the "big ears" enabled the French industrialists concerned to follow developments in a set of crucial negotiations on the merger -- which fell through in the end -- of German aerospace manufacturer Dasa and its British counterpart, British Aerospace. But there are not just "pearls," far from it. There is the rest of the work, the everyday routine, these thousands of reports of interceptions, "raw" reports as they are referred to at the DGSE, which pile up in the analysis department and are not always read. "For one good piece of information, there is so much useless bla-bla," says a secret service manager. "I wonder if all this is worth it." Many would prefer to see the DGSE invest in human intelligence services rather than technical systems. "With the fortunes we spend every year, we could set up so many agents abroad. After all, that is our real job." Threat to privacy? Without a doubt. Some of the millions of communications tapped could be yours. The risk is even higher if you call a region with few cable connections, like Africa, Russia, or the DOM-TOMs. Nothing prohibits the DGSE from intercepting your conversations or e-mails if they are transmitted by satellite. Worse, this type of espionage is implicitly authorized by a 1991 law establishing the Commission on Monitoring of Wiretaps. Article 20 of this law indeed stipulates that it is not within the powers of this new commission to monitor "measures taken by the public authorities to (...) monitor (...) transmissions via hertzian channels [Le Nouvel Observateur editor's note: That is, via the airwaves]." In other words, the body may monitor everything except "satellite" taps. "This exception was demanded by the highest state authorities," confides a former advisor to then Defense Minister Pierre Joxe. "Why? You may remember that at that time, the DGSE was launching a wide-ranging plan to modernize its 'big ears.' Compromising it was out of the question." A former Elysee staffer: "We wanted to give the secret service a free hand, not enclose it in a quota of authorized taps." The members of parliament could not make head nor tail of it. They should have been more curious. They would have learned that many democratic countries had already rigorously regulated the activities of their "big ears." In Germany, eight independent experts appointed by the parliament have monitored the BND's wiretapping activities since 1968; they constitute the "G10" commission. They have considerable power. They can interrogate all employees of the BND and view the entire tap production process. "The objective: to protect Germans' privacy," according to Professor Claus Arndt, who served on this commission from 1968 to 1999. When, during random sorting, the name of a German citizen or company appears, the BND must erase it, barring the express consent of the commission. "By the same token," says Professor Arndt, "the secret service must submit the entire list of key words it intends to use. It is not allowed to include the name of a German." By next June, a law should allow super-inspectors to visit any of the German secret service's sites, including the Kourou station. If France refuses to allow this, the president of the commission could call for the BND's withdrawal from the Guyanese base. In Australia, the "big ears" are under the surveillance of an inspector general designated by the government. He has the power to verify that the DSD, the espionage service, applies highly restrictive laws. For example, any information about an Australian collected by tapping stations must be destroyed. A destruction report must even be submitted to the inspector general. In Canada, a commissioner designated by the parliament is responsible for this task of monitoring. Each year, he drafts a public report. In the United States, the NSA's activities are monitored by an inspector general and the US attorney general. When will France follow suit? In recent months, members of Parliament have taken an interest in "big ears" ... belonging to the Americans. The Defense Commission recently issued a spiteful report about "Echelon" and the NSA (footnote: On the subject of Echelon, see "Global Electronic Surveillance," by Duncan Campbell, Allia Publishing). It is time for it also to study the practices of the DGSE and propose ways of monitoring them. This is an opportune time. A revolution in "tapping" is on the way. The secret service is planning to invest massively in interception of undersea cables. Before plunging into this adventure, could it not be subjected to a few democratic rules? [Description of Source: Paris Le Nouvel Observateur (Internet Version-WWW) in French -- left-of-center weekly magazine featuring domestic and international political news] -- Dave Emery N1PRE, die at die.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass. PGP fingerprint = 2047/4D7B08D1 DE 6E E1 CC 1F 1D 96 E2 5D 27 BD B0 24 88 C3 18 From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Sep 7 23:20:15 2001 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 23:20:15 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Your Marketing Request Message-ID: <200109080620.f886KF128463@s216-232-14-166.bc.hsia.telus.net> Below is the result of your feedback form. It was submitted by () on Friday, September 7, 2001 at 23:20:15 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- message: Fwd: [From Tim Jameston] ATTENTION: ANY SERIOUS NETWORK MARKETER TAKE A LOOK AT THE FOLLOWING OPPORTUNITIES I CAME ACROSS!! 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You have nothing to lose andeverything to gain.All our mailings are sent complying to the proposed United StatesFederal requirements for commercial e-mail: Section 301 Paragraph (a)(2)(C) ofS.618. Please see the bottom of this message for further information andremoval instructions.Dear Friend,AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV:Make over a half million dollars ($500,000+)every 4 to 5 months from your home for an investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars - one time! THANKS TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET! ====================================================== BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!! Before you say "Bull", please read the following. This is the letter youhave been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the popularity of thisletter on the internet, a national weekly news program recently devoted anentire show to the investigation of this program described below, to see if itreally can make people money. Also...***Does this Headline Look familiar??***PARENTS OF 15 YEAR OLD FIND $71,000 CASH HIDDEN IN CLOSET! Of course it does. This is one of the stories they featured on that newsreport. This is also the same program that he was using. Moving On...This show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved once and for all that there are "absolutely no lawsprohibiting the participation in the program and if people can follow the simpleinstructions, they are bound to make some mega bucks with only $25 out of pocketcost."DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER !!! This is what one participant had to say: "I am thankful for this profitable opportunity. I had seen this programmany times before, but each time I passed on it. I am so glad I finally joined justto see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. Tomy astonishment, I received a total of $610,470.00 in 21 weeks, with moneystill coming in." PamHedland, Fort Lee, NJ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~Here is another testimonial: "This program has been around for a long time and I never believed init. But one day when I received this again in the mail, I decided to gamble my$25 on it. I followed the simple instructions and walaa. 3 weeks later the moneystarted to come in. First month I only made a total of $240.00 but the next 2months after that I made a total of $290,000.00. So far, in the past 8 months byre-entering the program, I have made over $710,000 and I am playing it again. Thekey to success in this program is to follow the simple steps and not changeanything."More testimonials later but first, ****** PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE ****** $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months easily and comfortably, please read the following. THEN READ IT AGAIN AND AGAIN!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTIONS BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE!!! INSTRUCTIONS:**** Order all 5 reports shown on the list below.**** For each report, send: 1. $5 CASH 2. THE NAME AND NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING 3. YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems. **** When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5reports. You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computerand resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5 = $25.**** Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the 5reports from these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer so they willbe accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order themfrom you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it on your desk in casesomething happens to your computer.**** IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listednext to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other thanwhat is instructed below in steps 1 through 6 or you will lose out on a majorityof your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you will also see howit does not work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter it, it will NOT work!!! So, DO NOT try to change anythingother than what is instructed. Because if you do, it will not work for you.Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 1. After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement andREMOVE the name and address of the person in REPORT # 5. This person has made it through the cycle and is not doubt counting their fortune.2. Move the name and address in REPORT # 4 to REPORT # 5.3. Move the name and address in REPORT # 3 to REPORT # 4.4. Move the name and address in REPORT # 2 to REPORT # 3..5. Move the name and address in REPORT # 1 to REPORT #2.6. Insert YOUR name and address in the REPORT # 1 position.PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name and address ACCURATELY! ============================================================Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it onyour computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. Save this on a disk as well just in case you lose any data.To assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the 5reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing informationwhich includes how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands offree classified ads and much more.There are 2 primary methods to get this venture going: METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY============================================================Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, andwe will assume you and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let'salso assume that the mailing receives only a 0.2% response (the responsecould be much better but let's just say it is only 0.2%. Also, many peoplewill send out thousands of e-mails instead of only 5,000 each.)Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. With a0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for Report # 1. Those 10 peopleresponded by sending out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000. Out of those50,000 e-mails, only 0.2% responded with orders. That equals 100 peopleresponding and ordering Report # 2. Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails eachfor a total of 500,000 emails. The 0.2% response to that is 1,000 orders forReport # 3. Those 1,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5million e-mails sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for Report# 4. Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of50,000,000 (50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders forReport # 5.THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIME $5 EACH = $500,000.00 (One-half milliondollars.)Your total income in this example is:1. $50 +2. $500 +3. $5,000 + 4. $50,000 +5. $500,000 + Grand Total + $555,550.00NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL AND PAPER AND FIGURE OUT THE WORSE POSSIBLE RESPONSE. NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY!!!-------------------------------------------------------------REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDER OUT OF THE 5,000 YOU MAILED TO. Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone or half or even one fourth of those people who respondedmailed 100,000 e-mails each or more. There are over 250 million people on theinternet worldwide and counting. Believe me, many people will do just that, andmore! METHOD # 2: BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET===========================================================Adv ertising on the net is very inexpensive and there are hundreds ofFREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the internet willeasily get a large response. We strongly suggest you start with METHOD # 1 and add METHOD # 2 as you go along.For every $5 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it. Always provide same day service on all reports. This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and address onit, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they receive thereport. **********AVAILABLE REPORTS**********ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER AND NAME ONLY.Notes: Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, writethe NUMBER & NAME of the Report you are ordering along with YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address.PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW: ====================================================REPORT # 1: "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on theInternet."ORDER REPORT # 1 FROM:Gillian Ernsberger,1812 E.Townline-16 Rd, Pinconning, MI 48650.USADon't forget to provide your e-mail address to receive the reports! ====================================================REPORT # 2: "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on theInternet"ORDER REPORT # 2 FROM:Shane Black 4331 E.Baseline rd, suite B-105, PMB435. Gilbert, Arizona. 85234- 2961USA====================================================REPORT # 3: "The Secrets of Multi-Level Marketing on the Internet"ORDER REPORT # 3 FROM:SMJPO Box 8936Mesa, AZ. 85213- 8936USA====================================================REPORT # 4: "How to Become a Millionaire Utilizing the Power of Multi-Level Marketing and the Internet"ORDER REPORT # 4 FROM:M.Miller3089-C Clairemont Drive #343San Diego, CA. 92117USA====================================================REPORT # 5: "How to Send 1,000,000 E-mails for FREE"ORDER REPORT # 5 FROM:KC3439 NE Sandy Blvd #379Portland, Oregon 97232USA======================================================There are currently more than 250,000,000 people online worldwide!$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$$$$Follow these guidelines to create your success:If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report # 1 within 2 weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do.After you receive 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you should receive 100 orders or more for Report # 2. If you did not, continue advertising or sending e- mails until you do.Once you have receiving 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a different report. You canKEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate from this business!!! --------------------------------------------------------------FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRM:You have just received information that can give you financial freedomfor the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money in the next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined.Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put your name and address in Report # 1 and move others to # 2...# 5 as instructed above. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails andyour name will be on every one of them. Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach.So my friend, I have given you ideas, information, materials andopportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW! *************** MORE TESTIMONIALS ***************My name it Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving "junk mail". I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I "knew" it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and a few days later she jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received a total of $147,200.00 all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jody in her "hobby". Mitchell Wolf, Chicago, Illinois---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------"Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, Idecided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way Iwouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back. I was surprised when I found my medium size post office box crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal isthat it does not matter where people live. There simply isn't a betterinvestment with a faster return." Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------"I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wonderedif I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact toget another copy, so I had to wait until I was e- mailed again by someoneelse... 11 months passed and then it luckily came again ... I did not delete isone! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the money came within 22 weeks." Susan De Suza, New York, NY-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------"It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money withlittle cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully and within 10 daysthe money started to come in. My first month I made $20,560.00 and by the end of the third month my total cash count was $362,840.00. Life is beautiful, thanks to the Internet." Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON "YOUR" ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM!!! If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer protection, Washington, D.C.Under Bill s.1618 TITLE III passed by the 105th Congress, this letter cannot be considered spam as long as the sender includes contact information and a method of removal. Make over a half million dollars ($500,000+) every 4 to 5 months from your home for an invest of only $25 U.S. Dollars - one time! It's there for you - go for it!Good Luck!-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=REMOVE Instructions=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- **************************************************************Do not reply to this message -To be removed from future mailings:mail to remove1549 @xyz002.com**************************************************************-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=- =More Info=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- **************************************************************To receive more information or to subscribe to Periodic mailings with offers like this...mail to reply1549 @xyz002.com**************************************************************<-*->mW3$F=d[83iz* 09FImvQQi$F38F308SImvmvPmvmvi=[8d3s?80,szImv6WA[NFAdiz=80,szImv%fHi|s=3 |F30,szImv2mWvW6qi?sAS98F30d3308F3Imv2%i$s3zd[S0,szImv2Hv%i@ [zs0,szImvP3szzR[ASiF*,[3F0,szImfm6vfiOsS0,sz0OAImf%ZQQi z*08F3Imfud=9dSSd=i|As9 [R08F3Im2Z-sFi@[zs0,sz03?Im2QmvqmiAFS[dOSFzF==d [808F3Im2%dO8i [,sz8F30,szIm2f6F9?dA9=i$szF0,szIm2Pd==$sSFiF*,[3F0,szIm2O[A9=iz=80,szImqQQizd [S0,szImqQQRsn=F_iF*, [3F0,szImqQ6SiAdzOSFA0AnImqQW2Wi,sz=F308F3Imqm6sNFA3nAFi,F83nAR [83FA08F3Imq%i?sAS9s8S[8F09FImq2i$s3zd[S0,szImqHQ% Wmi=@R3FS0,szImqHq2iuR|sSR0_[Imq3[SS[9[Fin=d08F3ImHQQ6,sz| 3s8iOOsR0,szImHmmq6i[zd[S0AnImH%HHQ=9i=3n9F830FnA08SImHvWvQQiF*, [3F0,szImHvvi|sA3ndSzd[S0|3ImHfm6i,F83nAR[83FA08F3ImHffqqmfi3FSF_s8[,dzsN[= 3dA0,sz0|FImH2%=,[Siz=80,sz<-*-> From measl at mfn.org Sat Sep 8 01:31:11 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 03:31:11 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: <20010905121758.B387@cluebot.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Sep 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > Mere possession (not creation) of visual depictions of child > pornography has been a federal felony for at least a decade. > Someone who's a "collector" who did not publish the material would > be a felon. We are not talking about "visual depictions" (cute Fedz euphemism for photographs or photograph like imagery) here, we are talking about *written words*. The anti-imaging laws are justified on the grounds that producing the stuff requires, by definition, a child, and therefore, outlawing the stuff "Saves Children". As I understand this story, the guy had a diary which contained written descriptions of things he would *like* to do, not a photo album of kids bent over a table... Big difference. A a "journalist", I'm sure you can see where this not so subtle difference lies... -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From shamrock at cypherpunks.to Fri Sep 7 21:11:24 2001 From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 06:11:24 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Eric Hughes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010908060947.F12020-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to> On Fri, 7 Sep 2001, A. Melon wrote: > Does anyone know Eric Hughes' current email address? the ricocet one is, > of course, non-functional now. eh(a_t)speakeasy.net -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted email preferred. From palzone12 at postino.ch Sat Sep 8 08:35:21 2001 From: palzone12 at postino.ch (palzone12 at postino.ch) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 08:35:21 Subject: LOANS WITH NO STRINGS ATTACHED Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4424 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sat Sep 8 07:38:46 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 09:38:46 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: <20010908102128.A9509@cluebot.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Sep 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > My point was that this is a natural outgrowth of existing child porn and > obscenity laws, and if you're upset at this, you should naturally be upset > at the entire framework. Then your point is invalid. Simply because the application or extension of something is harmful or undesirable doesn't map to the entire framework being bad. It's a common failing of C-A-C-L based theologies. You don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Sat Sep 8 09:45:14 2001 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 09:45:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: <20010908102128.A9509@cluebot.com> from "Declan McCullagh" at Sep 08, 2001 10:21:28 AM Message-ID: <200109081645.QAA28422@hey.fuh-q.org> Declan wrote: > My point was that this is a natural outgrowth of existing child porn and > obscenity laws, and if you're upset at this, you should naturally be upset > at the entire framework. Right. The big mistake was to criminalize "obscenity" in and of itself, to define what obscenity was by something as subjective as local community standards, and to make such criminalization independent of its willful dissemination to people who are offended by it. This creates the absurd situation that private ownership of material, deemed "prurient" by a majority of ones neighbors, makes one a criminal even if it is never shown to anyone. All the rest of the censorship nonsense, including that related to the sexual depictions of minors, follows sequentially from this fundamental idiocy. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From declan at well.com Sat Sep 8 07:21:28 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 10:21:28 -0400 Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: ; from measl@mfn.org on Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 03:31:11AM -0500 References: <20010905121758.B387@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20010908102128.A9509@cluebot.com> On Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 03:31:11AM -0500, measl at mfn.org wrote: > As I understand this story, the guy had a diary which contained written > descriptions of things he would *like* to do, not a photo album of kids > bent over a table... Your snotty message notwithstanding (I now regret taking you seriously in the past, and I'll try not to make that mistake again), my point was not to defend the law, as I made clear in the portion of my post you conveniently neglected to include. (In fact, since 1996 and the "morphed child porn" law in effect, Photoshop- created fantasies have been illegal to possess, and people have been convicted under that law, and their convictions (mostly) upheld.) My point was that this is a natural outgrowth of existing child porn and obscenity laws, and if you're upset at this, you should naturally be upset at the entire framework. -Declan From jamesd at echeque.com Sat Sep 8 10:44:19 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 10:44:19 -0700 Subject: Begging for Enemies of the State In-Reply-To: <200109071747.NAA20092@maynard.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <3B99F683.29317.2E1CD3@localhost> -- On 7 Sep 2001, at 13:40, John Young wrote: > The competiton between government-run prisons and the > commercial ops have led to fabulous lobbying and jawboning of > legislators and wardens to spread the lucrative but diminishing > prison-care population around, I think there is little danger that enemies of the state will be targeted. What appears to be happening is that in those semi rural counties that are particularly dependent on the prison business, they bust anyone who passes through who is from out of town, poor, and of the incorrect race, and sentence them to seven years or so on whatever they can find. Those cops and judges would not touch political activists with a ten foot pole. They want peaceful no-account people who will not make trouble, and will not get anyone making trouble for them. Not only will they not touch political activists, they are often reluctant to touch real criminals, since real criminals are often unprofitable to imprison. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG qeAmePYMQs+2fs9grz5Mwvlgsc9pcm/mMQgpTkbM 4u7EV0HOpoP6V0ezEklb1QSbQBmJb65puwaWBTjnk From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Sat Sep 8 02:01:10 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 11:01:10 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: [RRE]Your Face Is Not a Bar Code (fwd) Message-ID: -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 15:53:48 -0700 From: Phil Agre To: Red Rock Eater News Service Subject: [RRE]Your Face Is Not a Bar Code =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= This message was forwarded through the Red Rock Eater News Service (RRE). You are welcome to send the message along to others but please do not use the "redirect" option. For information about RRE, including instructions for (un)subscribing, see http://dlis.gseis.ucla.edu/people/pagre/rre.html =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Your Face Is Not a Bar Code: Arguments Against Automatic Face Recognition in Public Places Phil Agre http://dlis.gseis.ucla.edu/pagre/ Version of 7 September 2001. 2600 words. Copyright 2001 by Phil Agre. You are welcome to forward this article in electronic form to anyone for any noncommercial reason. Please do not post it on any Web sites; instead, link to it here: http://dlis.gseis.ucla.edu/people/pagre/bar-code.html Given a digital image of a person's face, face recognition software matches it against a database of other images. If any of the stored images matches closely enough, the system reports the sighting to its owner. Research on automatic face recognition has been around for decades, but accelerated in the 1990s. Now it is becoming practical, and face recognition systems are being deployed on a large scale. Some applications of automatic face recognition systems are relatively unobjectionable. Many facilities have good reasons to authenticate everyone who walks in the door, for example to regulate access to weapons, money, criminal evidence, nuclear materials, or biohazards. When a citizen has been arrested for probable cause, it is reasonable for the police to use automatic face recognition to match a mug shot of the individual against a database of mug shots of people who have been arrested previously. These uses of the technology should be publicly justified, and audits should ensure that the technology is being used only for proper purposes. Face recognition systems in public places, however, are a matter for serious concern. The issue recently came to broad public attention when it emerged that fans attending the Super Bowl had unknowingly been matched against a database of alleged criminals, and when the city of Tampa deployed a face-recognition system in the nightlife district of Ybor City. But current and proposed uses of face recognition are much more widespread, as the resources at the end of this article demonstrate in detail. The time to consider the acceptability of face recognition in public places is now, before the practice becomes entrenched and people start getting hurt. Nor is the problem limited to the scattered cases that have been reported thus far. As the underlying information and communication technologies (digital cameras, image databases, processing power, and data communications) become radically cheaper over the next two decades, face recognition will become dramatically cheaper as well, even without assuming major advances in technologies such as image processing that are specific to recognizing faces. Legal constraints on the practice in the United States are minimal. (In Europe the data protection laws will apply, providing at least some basic rights of notice and correction.) Databases of identified facial images already exist in large numbers (driver's license and employee ID records, for example), and new facial-image databases will not be hard to construct, with or without the knowledge or consent of the people whose faces are captured. (The images need to be captured under controlled conditions, but most citizens enter controlled, video-monitored spaces such as shops and offices on a regular basis.) It is nearly certain, therefore, that automatic face recognition will grow explosively and become pervasive unless action is taken now. I believe that automatic face recognition in public places, including commercial spaces such as shopping malls that are open to the public, should be outlawed. The dangers outweigh the benefits. The necessary laws will not be passed, however, without overwhelming pressure of public opinion and organizing. To that end, this article presents the arguments against automatic face recognition in public places, followed by responses to the most common arguments in favor. Arguments against automatic face recognition in public places * The potential for abuse is astronomical. Pervasive automatic face recognition could be used to track individuals wherever they go. Systems operated by different organizations could easily be networked to cooperate in tracking an individual from place to place, whether they know the person's identity or not, and they can share whatever identities they do know. This tracking information could be used for many purposes. At one end of the spectrum, the information could be leaked to criminals who want to understand a prospective victim's travel patterns. Information routinely leaks from databases of all sorts, and there is no reason to believe that tracking databases will be any different. But even more insidiously, tracking information can be used to exert social control. Individuals will be less likely to contemplate public activities that offend powerful interests if they know that their identity will be captured and relayed to anyone that wants to know. * The information from face recognition systems is easily combined with information from other technologies. Industry often refers to face recognition as "facial recognition" because they regard faces as one modality of identification among many. Among the many "biometric" identification technologies, face recognition requires the least cooperation from the individual. Automatic fingerprint reading, by contrast, requires an individual to press a finger against a machine. (It will eventually be possible to identify people by the DNA-bearing cells that they leave behind, but that technology is a long way from becoming ubiquitous.) Organizations that have good reasons to identify individuals should employ whatever technology has the least inherent potential for abuse, yet very few identification technologies have more potential for abuse than face recognition. Information from face recognition systems is also easily combined with so-called location technologies such as E-911 location tracking in cell phones, thus further adding to the danger of abuse. * The technology is hardly foolproof. Among the potential downsides are false positives, for example that so-and-so was "seen" on a street frequented by drug dealers. Such a report will create "facts" that the individual must explain away. Yet the conditions for image capture and recognition in most public places are far from ideal. Shadows, occlusions, reflections, and multiple uncontrolled light sources all increase the risk of false positives. As the database of facial images grows bigger, the chances of a false match to one of those images grows proportionally larger. * Many social institutions depend on the difficulty of putting names to faces without human intervention. If people could be identified just from looking in a shop window or eating in a restaurant, it would be a tremendous change in our society's conception of the human person. People would find strangers addressing them by name. Prospective customers walking into a shop could find that their credit reports and other relevant information had already been pulled up and displayed for the sales staff before they even inquire about the goods. Even aside from the privacy invasion that this represents, premature disclosure of this sort of information could affect the customer's bargaining position. * The public is poorly informed about the capabilities of the cameras that are already ubiquitous in many countries. They usually do not realize, for example, what can be done with the infrared component of the captured images. Even the phrase "face recognition" does not convey how easily the system can extract facial expressions. It is not just "identity" that can be captured, then, but data that reaches into the person's psyche. Even if the public is adequately informed about the capabilities of this year's cameras, software and data sharing can be improved almost invisibly next year. * It is very hard to provide effective notice of the presence and capabilities of cameras in most public places, much less obtain meaningful consent. Travel through many public places, for example government offices and centralized transportation facilities, is hardly a matter of choice for any individual wishing to live in the modern world. Even in the private sector, many retail industries (groceries, for example) are highly concentrated, so that consumers have little choice but to submit to the dominant company's surveillance practices. * If face recognition technologies are pioneered in countries where civil liberties are relatively strong, it becomes more likely that they will also be deployed in countries where civil liberties hardly exist. In twenty years, at current rates of progress, it will be feasible for the Chinese government to use face recognition to track the public movements of everyone in the country. Responses to arguments in favor of automatic face recognition in public places * "All of the people in our database are wanted criminals. We don't store any of the images that our cameras capture, except when they match an image in the database. So the only people who have any cause for complaint are criminals." The problems with this argument are numerous: (1) We have to trust your word that the only people whose images are stored in the database are wanted criminals, and we have to trust your word that you throw away all of the images that fail to match the database. (2) You don't really know yourself whether all of the people in the database are criminals. Quality control on those databases is far from perfect, as the database of "felons" that was used to purge some Florida counties' electoral rolls in 2000 demonstrated. (3) Even if the only people in the database today are criminals, the forces pushing us down a slippery slope of every-expanding databases are nearly overwhelming. Once the system is established and working, why not add people with criminal records who have served their time? Then we could add alleged troublemakers who have been ejected from businesses in the past but have never been convicted of crimes, people who have been convicted of minor offenses such as shoplifting, people with court orders to stay away from certain places, missing persons, children whose parents are worried about them, elders whose children are worried about them, employees of the business where the system is operating, and other individuals who have signed contracts agreeing to be tracked. And once those people are added, it is then a short step to add many other categories of people as well. * "Public is public. If someone happens to notice you walking in the park, you have no grounds for complaint if they decide to tell someone else where you were. That's all we're doing. You don't have any reasonable expectation of privacy in a public place, and I have a free-speech right to communicate factual information about where you were." A human being who spots me in the park has the accountability that someone can spot them as well. Cameras are much more anonymous and easy to hide. More important is the question of scale. Most people understand the moral difference between a single chance observation in a park and an investigator who follows you everywhere you go. The information collected in the second case is obviously more dangerous. What is more, custom and law have always recognized many kinds of privacy in public. For example, the press cannot publish pictures of most people in personally sensitive situations that have no legitimate news value. It is considered impolite to listen in on conversations in public. Pervasive face recognition clearly lies at the morally most problematic end of this spectrum. The chance of being spotted is different from the certainty of being tracked. The phrase "reasonable expectation of privacy" comes from a US Supreme Court decision. The phrase has been widely criticized as useless, since reason that reasonable expectations of privacy in a situation can disappear as soon as someone starts routinely invading privacy in that situation. The problem is an often-exploited ambiguity in the word "expectation", which can mean either a prediction (with no logical implication that the world morally *ought* to hold conform to it) or a norm (with no logical implication that the world actually *will* conform to it). In arguing in favor of a ban on automatic face recognition in public places, one is not arguing for a blanket "right of privacy in public", which would be unreasonable and impractical. Rather, one is arguing for a right against technologically mediated privacy invasions of certain types. Technological mediation is key because of its continuous operation, standardized results, lack of other legitimate purposes, and rapidly dropping costs. The argument about free speech rights is spurious because the proposed ban is not on the transfer of information, but on the creation of certain kinds of electronic records. You still have the right to communicate the same information if you acquire it in other ways. * "Automatic face recognition stops crime. Police say they want it. And if it prevents one child from being killed then I support it." A free society is a society in which there are limits on what the police can do. If we want to remain a free society then we need to make a decision. Once a new surveillance technology is installed, it is nearly impossible to stop the slippery slope toward ever broader law enforcement use of it. The case of automatic toll collection makes this clear. Absent clear legal protections, then, we should assume from the beginning that any technology that captures personal information will be used for law enforcement purposes, and not only in cases where lives are immediately at stake. The potential for abuse should then be figured into our decision about whether the technology should be deployed at all. That said, it is hardly proven that face recognition stops crime, when face recognition is being added to a world that already contains many other crime-fighting technologies. The range of crime detection technologies available to the police has grown immensely in recent years, and even if one encountered a case where a crime was solved using a given technology it by no means follows that the crime would not have been solved equally well using some other technology. * "Privacy prevents the marketplace from functioning efficiently. When a company knows more about you, it can tailor its offerings more specifically to your needs. Of course if you ask people whether scary face recognition systems should be banned then they'll say yes. But you're asking the wrong question. The right question is whether people are willing to give up information in exchange for something of value, and most people are." This is a non sequitur. Few proposals for privacy protection prevent people from voluntarily handing information about themselves to companies with which they wish to do business. The problem arises when information is transferred without the individual's knowledge, and in ways that might well cause upset or harm if they became known. What distinguishes automatic face recognition from many other equally good identification technologies is that it can be used without the individual's permission (and therefore without the individual having agreed to any exchange). That is why it should be banned. * "A preoccupation with privacy is corrosive. Democracy requires people to have public personae, and excessive secrecy is unhealthy." Privacy does not equal secrecy. Privacy means that an individual has reasonable control over what information is made public, and what is not. Any decent social order requires that individuals be entrusted with this judgement. Even if particular individuals choose to become secretive in a pathological way, forcing them to change will not help the situation and is intrinsincally wrong anyway. As to the value of public personae, we should encourage the development of technologies that give people the option to appear publicly where and how they want. * "What do you have to hide?" This line is used against nearly every attempt to protect personal privacy, and the response in each case is the same. People have lots of valid reasons, personal safety for example, to prevent particular others from knowing particular information about them. Democracy only works if groups can organize and develop their political strategies in seclusion from the government, and from any established interests they might be opposing. This includes, for example, the identities of people who might travel through public places to gather for a private political meeting. In its normal use, the question "What do you have to hide?" stigmatizes all personal autonomy as anti-social. As such it is an authoritarian demand, and has no place in a free society. For more responses to bad arguments against privacy, see: http://dlis.gseis.ucla.edu/people/pagre/arguments.html News articles with background on face recognition. Facial-Recognition System Gets Millions in Federal Funds http://www.siliconvalley.com/docs/news/svfront/016044.htm Facial ID Systems Raising Concerns About Privacy http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A12629-2001Jul31.html Facial-Recognition Tech Has People Pegged http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/ptech/07/17/face.time.idg/ Face Scanners Turn Lens on Selves http://wired.com/news/privacy/0,1848,45687,00.html Face-Recognition Systems Offer New Tools, but Mixed Results http://www.biometricgroup.com/a_press/NYTimes_May_2001.htm How Facial Recognition Software Finds Faces http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/CuttingEdge/cuttingedge010706.html Law Enforcement Agencies Working on 3D Face Recognition Technology http://asia.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9909/24/3d.face.recognition.idg/ Face-Recognition Technology Raises Fears of Big Brother http://www.deseretnews.com/dn/view/0%2C1249%2C150015975%2C00.html Seeking Clues to Recognition ... in Your Face http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/news/health-science/html98/face_20000111.html Smile, You're On Scan Camera http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,42317,00.html Other sites with background information on face recognition technology and its potential for privacy invasion. Electronic Privacy Information Center Face Recognition Page http://www.epic.org/privacy/facerecognition/ Coalition Declares December 24, 2001 to Be "World Subjectrights Day" http://wearcam.org/wsd.htm Facial Recognition Vendor Test 2000 http://www.dodcounterdrug.com/facialrecognition/DLs/FRVT_2000.pdf http://www.dodcounterdrug.com/facialrecognition/FRVT2000/frvt2000.htm Selected Facial Scan Projects http://www.facial-scan.com/selected_facial_scan_projects1.htm US government site for biometric technology (including face recognition) http://www.biometrics.org/ Facing the Truth: A New Tool to Analyze Our Expressions http://www.hhmi.org/bulletin/may2001/faces/ Biometrics: Face Recognition Technology http://www.sans.org/infosecFAQ/authentic/face_rec.htm Automatic Face and Gesture Recognition, Washington, 20-21 May 2002 http://degas.umiacs.umd.edu/pirl/fg2002/ the two dominant face recognition companies http://www.visionics.com/faceit/ http://www.viisage.com/ other companies http://www.visionspheretech.com/menu.htm http://www.symtrontech.com/ http://www.cognitec-ag.de/ http://www.c-vis.com/htdocs/english/facesnap/ http://www.neurodynamics.com/ http://www.imagistechnologies.com/ http://www.spiritcorp.com/face_rec.html http://www.bio4.co.uk/ http://www.bioid.com/ http://www.miros.com/solutions/face.htm http://www.keyware.com/ http://www.bionetrix.com/ Web pages about technical research projects on face recognition. directory of face recognition research http://www.cs.rug.nl/~peterkr/FACE/face.html Face Recognition and Detection http://home.t-online.de/home/Robert.Frischholz/face.htm DoD Counterdrug Program Face Recognition Technology Program http://www.dodcounterdrug.com/facialrecognition/Feret/feret.htm http://www.itl.nist.gov/iad/humanid/feret/feret_master.html Wearable Face Recognition and Detection http://www.gvu.gatech.edu/ccg/projects/face/ Identification of Faces From Video http://staff.psy.gla.ac.uk/~mike/videoproj.html Evaluation of Face Recognition Algorithms http://www.cs.colostate.edu/evalfacerec/ slides from an MIT course on human and artificial face recognition http://web.mit.edu/9.670/www/ Gesture Recognition Home Page (related technology) http://www.cybernet.com/~ccohen/ Articles about face-recognition controversies in various places, roughly in reverse chronological order. Borders stores first Borders says it "suspended any plans to implement" face recognition ... http://www.computerworld.com/storyba/0,4125,NAV47_STO63359,00.html ... then it denies that it ever had any such intention http://www.politechbot.com/p-02447.html Borders is planning to use face recognition to identify shop-lifters http://www.sundayherald.com/18007/ casinos Smart Cameras at Casinos Spark a Debate on Privacy http://www.uniontrib.com/news/metro/20010717-9999_1n17cameras.html Privacy Commissioner Reassures Public That Casinos Are Not Scanning All Patrons http://www.ipc.on.ca/english/whatsnew/newsrel/casino01.htm OPP uses secret cameras in casinos ("police are secretly scanning the faces of customers at all Ontario casinos") http://www.efc.ca/pages/media/2001/2001-01-16-a-torontostar.html Global Cash Access Signs New Contracts With 20 Gaming Properties (face-recognizing ATM machines in casinos) http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/010823/232101_3.html Smile! You're on Casino Camera http://wbbm.cbsnow.com/now/story/0,1597,274604-240,00.shtml Virginia Beach, Virginia Technology Helps Authorities Keep a Constant Eye on Public http://www.pilotonline.com/news/nw0827cam.html Beach May Scan Oceanfront Faces http://www.pilotonline.com/news/nw0706fac.html Huntington Beach, California Imagis and ORION Chosen to Install Biometrics by Huntington Beach Police http://cipherwar.com/news/01/imagis_big_brother.htm Jacksonville, Florida Police Snooper Camera Fight Still Alive http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/083101/met_7161286.html Florida City Moves to Ban Face-Recognition System http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/fcw2.htm Pinellas County, Florida Face Recognition System Will Be Used by Florida Sheriff's Office http://www.friendsofliberty.com/files/2001/07/27/02.htm Britain Think Tank Urges Face-Scanning of the Masses http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/20966.html face recognition technology in the UK http://www.urban75.com/Action/cctv.html http://www.sourceuk.net/articles/a00624.html Newham Council Launches "Face Recognition" in the UK http://www.newham.gov.uk/press/julythrunov98/facereg.html Joyrider, 14, Is First Tagging Guinea Pig http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2-2001242628,00.html Colorado Colorado Governor Doesn't Want Face Recognition Technology Abused http://www.thedenverchannel.com/den/entertainment/stories/technology-87985620010719-070716.html Colorado Won't Use Facial Recognition Technology on Licenses http://www.thedenverchannel.com/den/entertainment/stories/technology-86955020010712-110740.html Colorado To Use Face Recognition Photos To Stop ID Theft http://www.newsbytes.com/news/01/167655.html Colorado to "Map" Faces of Drivers http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1002,11%257E57823,00.html Minnesota Minnesota Adopts Visionics' FaceIt for Integrated Mug Shot Database System http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/010814/142123.html Super Bowl Face Scans Match Few Suspects http://www.sptimes.com/News/021601/TampaBay/Face_scans_match_few_.shtml ACLU Protests High-Tech Super Bowl Surveillance http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/2001-02-02-super-bowl-surveillance.htm Super Bowl Surveillance: Facing Up to Biometrics http://www.rand.org/publications/IP/IP209/IP209.pdf Feds Use Biometrics Against Super Bowl Fans http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/16561.html Cameras Scanned Fans for Criminals http://www.sptimes.com/News/013101/TampaBay/Cameras_scanned_fans_.shtml Tampa, Florida Facial Frisking in Tampa http://www.privacyfoundation.org/commentary/tipsheet.asp?id=46&action=0 complete directory of Tampa news articles through early August from the ACLU http://www.gate.net/~rwms/aclutampacam.html "Big Brother" Cameras on Watch for Criminals http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/2001-08-02-big-brother-cameras.htm "They made me feel like a criminal" http://www.sptimes.com/News/080801/TampaBay/_They_made_me_feel_li.shtml Tampa Face-Recognition Vote Rattles Privacy Group http://www.newsbytes.com/news/01/168677.html Civil Rights or Just Sour Grapes? http://www.sptimes.com/News/080301/TampaBay/Civil_rights_or_just_.shtml Tampa City Council meeting which voted to keep the face recognition cameras http://www.ci.tampa.fl.us/appl_Cable_Communications_closed_captioning/frmAgenda.asp Click. BEEP! Face Captured http://www.sptimes.com/News/071901/Floridian/Click_BEEP_Face_captu.shtml Tampa Gets Ready For Its Closeup http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,167846,00.html Masked Protesters Fight Face Scans http://www.sptimes.com/News/071501/TampaBay/Masked_protesters_fig.shtml Tampa Puts Face-Recognition System on Public Street http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/2001-07-13-tampa-surveillance.htm Congressional Leader Calls for Action on Ybor City Surveillance (Ybor City is a busy nightlife neighborhood of Tampa) http://www.wtsp.com/news/2001_07/12_ybor_cameras.htm ACLU Probes Police Use of Facial-Recognition Cameras in Florida City http://www.aclu.org/news/2001/n070601a.html http://freedom.house.gov/library/technology/aclu.asp Tampa Scans the Faces in Its Crowds for Criminals http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/04/technology/04VIDE.html public radio report about the controversy http://www.npr.org/ramfiles/atc/20010702.atc.14.rmm Ybor Police Cameras Go Spy-Tech http://www.sptimes.com/News/063001/TampaBay/Ybor_police_cameras_g.shtml end From oio_oiuu_ww_ll at yandex.ru Sat Sep 8 00:24:44 2001 From: oio_oiuu_ww_ll at yandex.ru (MailBase) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 11:24:44 +0400 Subject: =?windows-1251?Q?=C1=E0=E7=FB_=E4=E0=ED=ED=FB=F5_=EF=F0=E5=E4=EF=F0=E8=FF=F2=E8=E9_=E4=EB=FF_=EA=EE=ED=F2=E0=EA=F2=EE=E2_=EF=EE_=FD=EB=E5=EA=F2=F0=EE=ED=ED=EE=E9_=EF=EE=F7=F2=E5?= Message-ID: <16206200196872444529@yandex.ru> Здравствуйте! В этом письме: - базы данных предприятий для контактов по электронной почте; - программа для автоматической рассылки электронной почты; - базы данных крупнейших предприятий. Когда необходимо быстро и с минимальными затратами сообщить определенной целевой группе предприятий какую-либо информацию, нет ничего лучше, чем сделать это по электронной почте. Наши базы данных для контактов по электронной почте предназначены специально для этих целей. Многие отрицательно относятся к массовым электронным рассылки, печально известным как spam. Однако мы считаем, нет ничего плохого в том, что фирма, выбрав из базы ограниченный круг предприятий (и только предприятий, а не частных лиц!) лишь определенного рода деятельности, рассылает по ним соответствующее предложение небольшого объема, которое действительно реально может их заинтересовать. Такие рассылки можно использовать не только для рекламных целей. Например, вам нужно узнать стоимость определенного товара, производимого или продаваемого определенной группой организаций. Обзвонить 500, а то и 1000 фирм - занятие, требующее значительного времени. А если сделать рассылку с соответствующим запросом по данной группе организаций, можно быстро получить полную информацию по интересующему вопросу. Предлагаем Вам два комплекта для контактов по электронной почте: Комплект "Организации Москвы" - 38000 предприятий (все с электронными адресами); Комплект "Организации СНГ" - 30000 предприятий (все с электронными адресами) Каждый комплект включает в себя: - соответствующую базу данных для контактов по электронной почте; - программу GroupMail для автоматической рассылки электронной почты. База данных "38000 организаций Москвы". Кроме электронного адреса (e-mail имеется у каждой организации) по каждой компании представлены: - название, - род деятельности, - телефоны, - факс, - почтовый адрес, - адрес сайта. База оформлена в виде стандартной таблицы Excel, что позволяет работать с нею пользователю с любым уровнем знания компьютера, и дает возможность сортировки строк по любому из параметров, например, по роду деятельности. В базу вошли все компании, которые сами публикуют свой e-mail в различных бизнес-справочниках по Москве. Возвратов с несуществующих адресов при рассылках: 15%. Обновление базы происходит каждый квартал. База с программой предоставляется на компакт-диске или высылается электронной почтой. СТОИМОСТЬ данной базы в комплекте с программой GroupMail (см. ниже) - $300. Стоимость обновления $60. Форма оплаты любая. Заказы и вопросы направляйте на адрес mailbase at post.com. База данных "30000 предприятий СНГ". Кроме электронного адреса (e-mail имеется у каждой организации) по каждой компании представлены: - название, - форма собственности, - телефоны, - факс, - почтовый адрес, - адрес сайта, - Ф.И.О. и должность руководителя (!), - численность штата, - список производимых товаров и услуг. База оформлена в виде стандартной таблицы Excel, что позволяет работать с нею пользователю с любым уровнем знания компьютера. Возвратов с несуществующих адресов при рассылках: 20%. Обновление базы происходит каждый квартал. База с программой предоставляется на компакт-диске или высылается электронной почтой. СТОИМОСТЬ данной базы в комплекте с программой GroupMail (см. ниже) - $200. Стоимость обновления $40. Форма оплаты любая. Заказы и вопросы направляйте на адрес mailbase at post.com. Программа "Group Mail" предназначена для осуществления электронных рассылок. Во время рассылки "Group Mail" генерирует и отсылает письма для каждого получателя в отдельности. При этом в текстах (как в теме, так и в теле письма) может использоваться подстановка информации из различных ячеек базы, соответствующих конкретному адресу. Это позволяет обращаться к каждому получателю по имени в рассылках по базе Ваших клиентов или партнеров, а также любым другим образом персонифицировать Вашу рассылку. Например, тема письма может быть такой: "Предложение для компании (название_компании)". "Group Mail" имеет широкие возможности по ведению баз данных. Вы можете импортировать в программу свои базы. Их может быть неограниченное количество. Базы можно создавать, дополнять, редактировать. Письма в рассылках могут составляться как в формате txt, так и html. Реализована возможность прикрепления файлов любого формата. Group Mail работает без участия какой-либо другой почтовой программы. Программа "Group Mail" бесплатно прилагается к каждой из вышеописанных баз данных. Но ее можно приобрести и отдельно для рассылки по своим базам. В этом случае стоимость ее предоставления $25. Форма оплаты любая. Программа предоставляется на компакт-диске или высылается электронной почтой. Заказы и вопросы направляйте на адрес mailbase at post.com. Внимание! При одновременном приобретении обеих баз данных предоставляется скидка: $100! Выполняем электронные рассылки по Вашему заказу. Заказы и вопросы направляйте на адрес mailbase at post.com. Имеются также маркетинговые базы данных КРУПНЕЙШИХ ПРЕДПРИЯТИЙ: "Предприятия Москвы/России/СНГ с численностью штата более 50/500/1000 человек". Стоимости этх баз данных от $100 до $300. Форма оплаты любая. Базы предоставляется на компакт диске или высылается электронной почтой. Заказы и вопросы направляйте на адрес mailbase at post.com. Базы региональных промышленных предприятий. mailbase at post.com. Компания MailBase, E-mail: mailbase at post.com From bob at black.org Sat Sep 8 11:27:27 2001 From: bob at black.org (Subcommander Bob) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 11:27:27 -0700 Subject: Senators in need of retirement; the police state Message-ID: <3B9A630E.8029D939@black.org> At 09:30 PM 9/7/01 -0700, keyser-soze at hushmail.com wrote > With the help of Fritz Hollings (D-S.C.), the powerful chairman of the > Senate Commerce committee, they hope to embed copy-protection controls, > in nearly all consumer electronic devices and PCs. All types of, > digital content, including music, video and e-books, are covered. ,>I think any Senator who signs on for this has earned killing. Reminds me of when a sociologist was interviewing a southern farmer: Why do you think the murder rate is higher in the south? I guess more southerners need killin'. as told by Aaron Evans From cypherpunks at toad.com Sat Sep 8 11:28:11 2001 From: cypherpunks at toad.com (cypherpunks at toad.com) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 11:28:11 Subject: Your Ad Time:11:28:11 AM Message-ID: Hi, I noticed your well done ad in classifieds. As a PPL associate I'd like to introduce myself and maybe compare notes. If you'd like to do so please email me at info at free-law-central.com Meanwhile check out my site that I and many other associates are using to gain a large volume of names due to the SEM system and popup windows that follow the visitor as he navigates the normal PPL site. Here's some URLs to check out... Home page w/popup http://www.free-law-central.com Associate recruiting page http://www.free-law-central.com/associate_lead.htm Focus advertising page http://www.free-law-central.com/free_will.htm Our associate's support site http://www.officialinfo.net To your success J.R. Orsoni 954-566-5175 P.S. If you ever want to chat live go to: http://www.free-law-central.com/associate_talk.htm 8/9/01 From measl at mfn.org Sat Sep 8 09:35:13 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 11:35:13 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: <20010908120204.A10705@cluebot.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Sep 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > Jim, > I don't understand what you mean. Perhaps you can quote the relevant > section of the U.S. Constitution you're talking about, and follow it > up with some Slashdot URLs? Some week-old wire service articles would > be a big help too. > > Your fan, > Declan On Sat, 8 Sep 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > Your snotty message notwithstanding (I now regret taking you seriously > in the past, and I'll try not to make that mistake again) So what we have here, Ladies and Gentleman, is a hypocrite. Snotty messages from Declan are handed down from on high, whereas snotty messages from the rest of the world will render the originator of the missive as one who is 'not worth being taken seriously'. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From measl at mfn.org Sat Sep 8 09:53:20 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 11:53:20 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: <20010908102128.A9509@cluebot.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Sep 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > On Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 03:31:11AM -0500, measl at mfn.org wrote: > > As I understand this story, the guy had a diary which contained written > > descriptions of things he would *like* to do, not a photo album of kids > > bent over a table... > > Your snotty message notwithstanding (I now regret taking you seriously > in the past, and I'll try not to make that mistake again), my point > was not to defend the law, It did not appear [to me] that you were attempting to defend the law. > as I made clear in the portion of my post > you conveniently neglected to include. I did not elide this snippet below. That said, I came in from an 18++ hour day at work, and skimmed through my 700++ emails for the day, focusing primarily on those threads of interest. As there were an unusually large number of them today, I did stay closest to the most recent as a kind of "digest" attempt - if the below paragraph was somewhere in the original thread, it was gone by the time I responded. That said, I will respond to this now. > (In fact, since 1996 and the "morphed child porn" law in effect, Photoshop- > created fantasies have been illegal to possess, and people have been convicted > under that law, and their convictions (mostly) upheld.) > > My point was that this is a natural outgrowth of existing child porn and > obscenity laws, An outgrowth would imply that it is along a continuum that has the same basic "footing". All of your above examples, from the traditional "kiddie porn" to the Feinswine dirty pixel laws deal with visual imagery of the photographic "kind". What we have here is distinctly different: no pictures of *any* kind, real or constructed, *unless*, we are no prosecuting the imagery that we are assuming is present in the mind of the author. He is using *words*, not *imagery*. > and if you're upset at this, you should naturally be upset > at the entire framework. I *am* upset at the entire framework. Regardless of which (or both) of these footings are argued as somehow "morally valid/justified/whatever", what it boils down to is the outlawing of *information*. The outlawing of DATA is a Pure Thought Crime. If we wanted to "Protect The Children" we would make the *act* of engaging a minor in an *act* of nude photography/sex/dope smoking/whatever a serious crime, and we would then enforce it to the teeth. That we do not speaks volumes about who we are "protecting". The "drug war" is the perfect analogy here: it is the posession, which is inherently victimless, which is the greater evil under the "judgement" of our "society". Posession of *anything* is a victimless "crime", and should NEVER be prosecutable. > -Declan -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From declan at well.com Sat Sep 8 09:02:04 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 12:02:04 -0400 Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@einstein.ssz.com on Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 09:38:46AM -0500 References: <20010908102128.A9509@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20010908120204.A10705@cluebot.com> On Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 09:38:46AM -0500, Jim Choate wrote: > On Sat, 8 Sep 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > > > My point was that this is a natural outgrowth of existing child porn and > > obscenity laws, and if you're upset at this, you should naturally be upset > > at the entire framework. > > Then your point is invalid. Simply because the application or extension of > something is harmful or undesirable doesn't map to the entire framework > being bad. > > It's a common failing of C-A-C-L based theologies. > > You don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Jim, I don't understand what you mean. Perhaps you can quote the relevant section of the U.S. Constitution you're talking about, and follow it up with some Slashdot URLs? Some week-old wire service articles would be a big help too. Your fan, Declan From cypherpunks at toad.com Sat Sep 8 12:23:52 2001 From: cypherpunks at toad.com (cypherpunks at toad.com) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 12:23:52 Subject: Your Ad Time:12:23:52 PM Message-ID: Hi, I noticed your well done ad in classifieds. As a PPL associate I'd like to introduce myself and maybe compare notes. If you'd like to do so please email me at info at free-law-central.com Meanwhile check out my site that I and many other associates are using to gain a large volume of names due to the SEM system and popup windows that follow the visitor as he navigates the normal PPL site. Here's some URLs to check out... Home page w/popup http://www.free-law-central.com Associate recruiting page http://www.free-law-central.com/associate_lead.htm Focus advertising page http://www.free-law-central.com/free_will.htm Our associate's support site http://www.officialinfo.net To your success J.R. Orsoni 954-566-5175 P.S. If you ever want to chat live go to: http://www.free-law-central.com/associate_talk.htm 8/9/01 From declan at well.com Sat Sep 8 09:25:18 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 12:25:18 -0400 Subject: Request for SSSCA mirror help Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010908122504.00ab3e10@mail.well.com> I've put the complete SSSCA draft text in a PDF file here: http://www.well.com/~declan/sssca-draft.pdf Can I talk some folks who can spare the bandwidth into mirroring it and sending me the URL? The file's 2.5 MB, and I don't want to overload the Well's poor servers. Then I'll distribute a list of the original and the mirror sites. Please disregard this message after 3 pm ET Saturday. Thanks, Declan From declan at well.com Sat Sep 8 10:19:47 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 13:19:47 -0400 Subject: Request for SSSCA mirror help In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010908122504.00ab3e10@mail.well.com>; from declan@well.com on Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 12:25:18PM -0400 References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010908122504.00ab3e10@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <20010908131947.A12038@cluebot.com> Looks like we're set. Thanks, folks. http://gnu-darwin.sourceforge.net/sssca-draft.pdf http://www.nullify.org/sssca-draft.pdf http://sites.inka.de/risctaker/sssca-draft.pdf http://www.parrhesia.com/sssca-draft.pdf -Declan On Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 12:25:18PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: > I've put the complete SSSCA draft text in a PDF file here: > http://www.well.com/~declan/sssca-draft.pdf > > Can I talk some folks who can spare the bandwidth into mirroring it and > sending me the URL? The file's 2.5 MB, and I don't want to overload the > Well's poor servers. Then I'll distribute a list of the original and the > mirror sites. > > Please disregard this message after 3 pm ET Saturday. > > Thanks, > Declan From bob at black.org Sat Sep 8 13:25:09 2001 From: bob at black.org (Subcommander Bob) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 13:25:09 -0700 Subject: AOL subpeona'd for chat room 'witness' truename Message-ID: <3B9A7EA5.45DC3CD8@black.org> DULLES, Va. (AP) - Colorado police investigating the 1996 death of JonBenet Ramsey are trying to learn the identity of an America Online subscriber who claimed in an Internet message that he witnessed the 6-year-old's slaying. The Washington Post reported Saturday that Boulder, Colo., police Detective Thomas Trujillo asked Loudoun County, Va., investigators to file a search warrant asking AOL for the user's name, e-mail files and buddy lists. Boulder city spokeswoman Jana Peterson confirmed the report in an interview with Denver's KUSA-TV, but said: "It is not, in our estimation, any more significant than any number of tips that we've received in the past five years." An affidavit for the warrant said the message was posted on a Web site devoted to JonBenet, who was found beaten and strangled in the basement of her family's Boulder home on Dec. 26, 1996. No charges have been filed in the killing. Police Chief Mark Beckner received an e-mail Aug. 8 from an AOL user about the "confession," according to the affidavit "I was there when the whole thing occurred," the Aug. 7 message read. "I never wanted any part in it, but they said if I didn't help I would be killed as well." Messages left by The Associated Press for Beckner and Trujillo were not immediately returned. Loudoun County officials said no one would be available for comment until Monday. AOL spokesman Nicholas Graham said the Dulles-based company were cooperating with authorities. He declined to identify the source of the e-mails. From measl at mfn.org Sat Sep 8 13:39:58 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 15:39:58 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Official Anonymizing In-Reply-To: <20010905104633.A11784@weathership.homeport.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Sep 2001, Adam Shostack wrote: > Is it even legal (in the US) to refuse to sell to the feds? I know While I am unsure of the _current_ status, as of 1989/90 it was at least OK to place severe restrictions on *how* one did business with them. At that time I worked for a company that separate divisions, of which one was a [consumer] retail outlet (interestingly, the other division was strictly for Fedz contract work- oh, the irony!). During 1987 ('88?) the Fedz (in the person of IRS) made rather a lot of purchases via P.O., and was so "laid back" about [not] paying their bills, that the retail side of the house put in a strict cash-only policy on government purchases, and simultaneously placed a no-sale policy on them until their bills were paid in full (which never happened, and which means there were no further sales to the federales). -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sat Sep 8 14:13:37 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 16:13:37 -0500 Subject: Slashdot | A Critique of the EFF's Open Audio License Message-ID: <3B9A8A01.BA42961A@ssz.com> http://slashdot.org/articles/01/09/08/1333226.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sat Sep 8 14:15:06 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 16:15:06 -0500 Subject: Slashdot | NSA, The Technology Future, and Where It Is Message-ID: <3B9A8A5A.BBEBB5B5@ssz.com> http://slashdot.org/articles/01/09/08/0121250.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Sat Sep 8 18:51:02 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 18:51:02 -0700 Subject: FC: Sen. Hollings plans to introduce DMCA sequel: The SSSCA Message-ID: <200109090151.f891p2S71697@mailserver1c.hushmail.com> At Sat, 08 Sep 2001 10:50:29 -0700, "Thomas Leavitt" wrote: >The only response legislation like this deserves is massive, public civil disobedience. Stand out in front of the White House, with old Intel boxes running Linux and an open source MP3 ripper/player, and offer to sell them to passerby. Have 500,000 individuals be formal members of a general partnership (no liability shield) - force the government to throw us all in jail and take everything we own. We'll see what happens then! I don't think your response goes far enough. Those jailed have will have lost months even years of their lives. What will the Congresscritters lose? How will they pay them back once these laws are repealed? If I were ever arrested for drug possession or DMCA violation I know what I would do once released. The trouble with almost all who complain about this sort of crap is that is all they will do. They are too comfortable to take the actions they know are necessary. Most all the Declaration of Independence signers paid dearly. Tell me how many you think today are willing to risk it all as they did? I suspect until internal security forces patrol the streets (they are already setting up cameras in every major city) and quarter themeslves in our homes the sheeple will cower under their beds and thank God they have a job, a roof over their heads and can go to the church of their choice in Sunday. Got to go now and water the tree of liberty... From declan at well.com Sat Sep 8 16:07:03 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 19:07:03 -0400 Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: ; from measl@mfn.org on Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 11:35:13AM -0500 References: <20010908120204.A10705@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20010908190703.A18720@cluebot.com> On Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 11:35:13AM -0500, measl at mfn.org wrote: > Snotty messages from Declan are handed down from on high, whereas snotty > messages from the rest of the world will render the originator of the > missive as one who is 'not worth being taken seriously'. Hahahahahaha. Choate is a special case. -Declan From georgemw at speakeasy.net Sat Sep 8 20:41:01 2001 From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 20:41:01 -0700 Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: References: <20010908102128.A9509@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <3B9A825D.4326.3632C979@localhost> On 8 Sep 2001, at 11:53, measl at mfn.org wrote: > > On Sat, 8 Sep 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > > > On Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 03:31:11AM -0500, measl at mfn.org wrote: > > > (In fact, since 1996 and the "morphed child porn" law in effect, Photoshop- > > created fantasies have been illegal to possess, and people have been convicted > > under that law, and their convictions (mostly) upheld.) > > > > My point was that this is a natural outgrowth of existing child porn and > > obscenity laws, > > An outgrowth would imply that it is along a continuum that has the same > basic "footing". All of your above examples, from the traditional "kiddie > porn" to the Feinswine dirty pixel laws deal with visual imagery of the > photographic "kind". What we have here is distinctly different: no > pictures of *any* kind, real or constructed, *unless*, we are no > prosecuting the imagery that we are assuming is present in the mind of the > author. He is using *words*, not *imagery*. > > And why do you think that is significant? Once morphed pictures can be considered child pornography, the "real victim" argument no longer applies. Why should text be considered fundamentally different from drawn pictures? George From mnorton at cavern.uark.edu Sat Sep 8 19:31:28 2001 From: mnorton at cavern.uark.edu (Mac Norton) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 21:31:28 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: <20010908102128.A9509@cluebot.com> Message-ID: Is there a point to this discussion? If either one of you knew anything about the law you'd be dangerous. MacN On Sat, 8 Sep 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > On Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 03:31:11AM -0500, measl at mfn.org wrote: > > As I understand this story, the guy had a diary which contained written > > descriptions of things he would *like* to do, not a photo album of kids > > bent over a table... > > Your snotty message notwithstanding (I now regret taking you seriously > in the past, and I'll try not to make that mistake again), my point > was not to defend the law, as I made clear in the portion of my post > you conveniently neglected to include. > > (In fact, since 1996 and the "morphed child porn" law in effect, Photoshop- > created fantasies have been illegal to possess, and people have been convicted > under that law, and their convictions (mostly) upheld.) > > My point was that this is a natural outgrowth of existing child porn and > obscenity laws, and if you're upset at this, you should naturally be upset > at the entire framework. > > -Declan > > From amp at pobox.com Sat Sep 8 21:59:40 2001 From: amp at pobox.com (amp) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 23:59:40 -0500 Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: <20010906225856.A7373@cluebot.com> References: <200109070030.f870UJS68852@mailserver1c.hushmail.com> <20010906225856.A7373@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <01090823594000.09873@www.zeugma.nu> It's mostly the result of habit these days. Since the evil of Fedgov is so pervasive these days, it's easy to forget it's many Stategov minions. I stand corrected on that in this particular case. On Thursday 06 September 2001 09:58 pm, Declan McCullagh wrote: > I'm confused about "Fedgov" references. This was a state law and > a state prosecution and a state judge. Doesn't make it right, but it > has little to do with "Fedgov." > > -Declan > > On Thu, Sep 06, 2001 at 05:30:19PM -0700, keyser-soze at hushmail.com wrote: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > > > At 06:15 PM 9/6/2001 -0500, amp wrote: > > > > On Wednesday 05 September 2001 10:51 am, David Honig wrote: > > > At 09:49 AM 9/5/01 -0700, John Young wrote: > > > >Isn't what is new here is that the man did not publish this material > > > >as was the material of Joyce, Miller, et al? Nobody saw it except > > > >him and the cop who discovered it. > > > > > > Wasn't it his *parents* who read his journal and turned him in, hoping > > > for 'treatment' > > > instead of jail? Shades of David & Ted Kaczynski... > > > > > >Indeed. From press accounts, his mother turned him in. (That's how > > > Fedgov got > > > > his diary/notebook from what I understand.) The appelate decision that > > was recently in the news is that he pled guilty thinking he would get > > probation/treatment. The judge, in effect said, "I don't know why the > > hell you would have thought that. Lock him up!" > > > > >I'm concerned that Fedgov has been able to successfully prosecute this > > > > thoughtcrime using his own private writings. It could very well be > > possible that writing his evil thoughts down kept him from acting on > > them. I know that sometimes when I have a good rant building up, I have > > to just write it to get it out of my system. This case could well have > > unintended consequences if people finally understand that Fedgov doesn't > > give a rat's ass about any alleged 'right to privacy'. Americans > > allegedly have right to 'keep and bear arms' as well, spelled out on > > paper (currently being used as toilet paper in government offices across > > the land), but there are thousands of laws regulating against same. > > > > This may continue until JDF types with nothing to lose (e.g., diagnosed > > with a terminal illness) put selected DOJ, FBI and Congressional targets > > in their sights. > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > > Version: Hush 2.0 > > > > wmAEARECACAFAjuYFYwZHGtleXNlci1zb3plQGh1c2htYWlsLmNvbQAKCRAg4ui5IoBV > > n/9+AJ9eK/gSpH59ahQrotIOcYbOo8cHQgCeM0ki/sMKBda2tdCstCyN4LqFQWk= > > =1jll > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- TANSTAAFL, amp at pobox.com http://www.zeugma.nu/ Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic. From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Sun Sep 9 09:15:50 2001 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 09:15:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What Do Naked Children and Breast Cancer Have in Common? Message-ID: <200109091615.QAA30218@hey.fuh-q.org> No sooner has Peacefire put the final nails in the coffin of BAIR, an alleged AI application that purports to recognize porn, http://peacefire.org/censorware/BAIR/first-report.6-6-2000.html than we get this entry from the land of Ireland, which claims to do something similar. http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2001/09/09/stiireire01015.html As readers of this mailing list are aware, most pornography recognition software can't tell the difference between group sex and an autographed picture of Babe the Pig. Nonetheless, this story makes some amazing claims, amongst them... o That the software was originally developed for breast cancer detection. o That the software can recognize child porn through encryption codes and detect child porn hidden in otherwise inaccessible files. It would be amusing if this program could be tested by an objective researcher, and the results reported. I smell snake oil. ----- Dublin team cracks child porn code Lynne Kelleher A COMPUTER program invented to detect breast cancer will now be used by gardai to prosecute paedophiles using child pornography websites. Two Dublin biologists developed the tracking device, which can detect pornographic images hidden behind computer code or in otherwise inaccessible files. The technology was first created to identify breast cancer in tissue images. The inventors, Dr Dara FitzGerald and Dr Donal O'Shea, were first asked by gardai for help in tracing pornographic images on computers. British police and America's Federal Bureau of Investigation have examined the system and are planning to use it in their child sex abuse units. PixAlert Enforcer, launched last June, finds online pornography by searching for human skin in computer images. After police impound a suspect's computer, they run the program and it searches all the files in a few hours, a task that once took several days. While this program will cost police forces IR£7,500, two cheaper versions are also available for the commercial market. PixAlert Auditor, costing £125 per computer, is being targeted at the corporate sector, government departments, schools and libraries. PixAlert Monitor, priced at £60, is for discreet monitoring of home PCs by parents. "We worked on breast cancer, BSE and tuberculosis," said FitzGerald. "It was a very big and very expensive undertaking. People also come to us all the time looking for solutions to their problems and the gardai were looking for a computer program to access these images. "We used the high-tech knowledge used in the diagnosis of breast cancer for this program. Gardai told us there were so many images and files to search for child pornography, and it was a very onerous job." Employers are also becoming more concerned about workers downloading pornographic images on their computers, FitzGerald said. "We think the application will work in the workplace. Pornography on computers in becoming a big problem for employers," he said. A garda spokesman confirmed that the force is using the device with a view to purchasing it. "We are very happy with the product," he said. Gardai have been testing the system for nine months and have been working closely with the two scientists, making improvements to the program. British police have been testing PixAlert Enforcer for the past month. The inventors have consulted 29 police departments across Britain. Tony Gibbons, a director of BioObservation Systems, met the FBI last April. Muireann O Briain, director of End Child Prostitution in Asian Tourism, said she hoped police worldwide would be able to use this system to find images otherwise impossible to trace on a computer. "Paedophiles can put all sorts of encryption codes on their computer or use other means to try and hide the images," said O Briain, a Dubliner who is based in Thailand. "This is a great development. We still don't know the full extent of the abuse of children whose pictures are on the net. "An English police operation against paedophiles known as the Wonderland Club came across these problems. To become a member of this club you had to have at least 10,000 images. Every one of them showed a child in a pornographic pose. More than 750,000 pornographic images were seized in that first raid on more than 100 homes worldwide in September 1998. One of the seven men who committed suicide had such sophisticated encryption codes on his computer that police would never have been able to access the images." -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From measl at mfn.org Sun Sep 9 08:14:40 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 10:14:40 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: <20010908190703.A18720@cluebot.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Sep 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > On Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 11:35:13AM -0500, measl at mfn.org wrote: > > Snotty messages from Declan are handed down from on high, whereas snotty > > messages from the rest of the world will render the originator of the > > missive as one who is 'not worth being taken seriously'. > > Hahahahahaha. Choate is a special case. > > -Declan Why? Because it's Politcally Correct [in the Cpunk] world to blast him? P.C. is just as sickening here as anywhere else, and your plea of "special case" has no foundation - it is merely an attempt to dodge the bullet. The above excerpts are defacto proof of your hypocrisy. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From declan at well.com Sun Sep 9 08:40:20 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 11:40:20 -0400 Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: References: <20010908190703.A18720@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010909113826.0258b670@mail.well.com> At 10:14 AM 9/9/01 -0500, measl at mfn.org wrote: >Why? Because it's Politcally Correct [in the Cpunk] world to blast >him? P.C. is just as sickening here as anywhere else, and your plea of >"special case" has no foundation - it is merely an attempt to dodge the >bullet. The above excerpts are defacto proof of your hypocrisy. I have no interest what you call "politically correct" or not. But Choate has shown over a period of many years that he's not willing to engage in serious discussions here, and therefore is not worthy of serious replies. You, my friend, seem to be intent on following the same path, albeit a bit more snottily and quickly. -Declan From codeguru at fromru.com Sun Sep 9 06:21:51 2001 From: codeguru at fromru.com (Alexander Oustouzhanin) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 15:21:51 +0200 Subject: The willingness for Telecommute Message-ID: <1010909152151.197bd2f.c0a80102.ASIP6.3.1.20770@192.168.1.2> It is my distinct pleasure to express the willingness for Telecommute. Utilizing only the most modern computer language programming with a staff of talanted designers, which deliver a product of unparalleled quality, enabling us to proffer with absolute confidence and pride our help. Anticipating our services will meet your expectations and approval, looking forward to a long and mutually prosperous association, I extend to you in advance my sincerest gratitude and very best regards. Alexander Oustouzhanin Freelance Web Developer From codeguru at fromru.com Sun Sep 9 06:21:56 2001 From: codeguru at fromru.com (Alexander Oustouzhanin) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 15:21:56 +0200 Subject: The willingness for Telecommute Message-ID: <1010909152156.197be2b.c0a80102.ASIP6.3.1.20803@192.168.1.2> It is my distinct pleasure to express the willingness for Telecommute. Utilizing only the most modern computer language programming with a staff of talanted designers, which deliver a product of unparalleled quality, enabling us to proffer with absolute confidence and pride our help. Anticipating our services will meet your expectations and approval, looking forward to a long and mutually prosperous association, I extend to you in advance my sincerest gratitude and very best regards. Alexander Oustouzhanin Freelance Web Developer From ravage at ssz.com Sun Sep 9 14:36:44 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 16:36:44 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Rijndael in Assembler for x86? (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: 09 Sep 2001 16:23:30 -0400 From: "Perry E. Metzger" To: cryptography at wasabisystems.com Subject: Rijndael in Assembler for x86? Does anyone have an open source implementation of Rijndael in assembler for the Pentium? Perry -- Perry E. Metzger perry at wasabisystems.com -- NetBSD Development, Support & CDs. http://www.wasabisystems.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From measl at mfn.org Sun Sep 9 15:24:17 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 17:24:17 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010909113826.0258b670@mail.well.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Sep 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > You, my friend, Let's get something *perfectly* straight: I am NOT your "friend". > -Declan -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From freematt at coil.com Sun Sep 9 14:35:17 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 17:35:17 -0400 Subject: More (Was Re: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change) Message-ID: http://libpub.dispatch.com/cgi-bin/documentv1?DBLIST=cd01&DOCNUM=38993 &TERMV=257:5:262:6:133266:5:133271:6: SEX DIARIST HAD GOOD COUNSEL, HIS FORMER LAWYER SAYS Friday, September 7, 2001 NEWS 01F By Tim Doulin Dispatch Staff Reporter Illustration: Photo If Brian Dalton hopes to have his conviction for pandering obscenity thrown out, his new attorneys will have to prove he received poor legal counsel. But the attorney who represented Dalton said that wasn't the case. "With all the facts that I know, I believe he was effectively represented,'' said Isabella Dixon, Dalton's original attorney. As part of a plea agreement, Dalton, 22, pleaded guilty on July 3 to creating a journal in which he describes in detail the torture and sexual molestation of children. Dalton said the writings were fictional and were never distributed to anyone. Still, Franklin County Common Pleas Judge Nodine Miller convicted him of pandering obscenity involving a minor and sentenced him to seven years in prison. The case shocked lawyers who specialize in First Amendment and obscenity law. [...] ~~~ FreeOhio- Defiant Defenders of Individual Liberty. http://www.pandar.com/freeohio/ Subscribe to FreeOhio for news and opinion about freedom in the Buckeye State. Subscribing is fast, easy and free. Simply send a message to freeohio-subscribe at yahoogroups.com ~~~ From a3495 at cotse.com Sun Sep 9 16:05:36 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 19:05:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Anonymity without Cryptography Message-ID: Some of you probably heard this paper presented live...any thoughts? ~F. Anonymity without Cryptography (2001) Dahlia Malkhi and Elan Pavlov School of Computer Science and Engineering The Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Israel Abstract: This paper presents an encryption-free anonymizing network that is efficient to use, and does not require the use of conventional cryptography by the users of the network. The method, Anonymous Multi Party Computation (AMPC), uses a variation of Chaum's mixnets that utilizes value- splitting to hide inputs, and hence requires no "conditionally-secure" operations of its users. This is achieved under the assumption that there are secure channels between good participants, and under a suitable resilience threshold assumption that, in our worst adversarial scenario, is a square-root of the system. Our new paradigm provides users electronic privacy without trusting any computer to perform heavy cryptographic operations on their behalf in various applications, e.g., electronic voting. http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/malkhi01anonymity.html From a3495 at cotse.com Sun Sep 9 17:04:59 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 20:04:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: entrapment: an extended explanation Message-ID: Entrapment - Extended Explanation c. Bill E. Branscum It is clearly established that government agents may not originate a criminal design, implant in an innocent person's mind the disposition to commit a criminal act, and then induce commission of the crime so that the government may prosecute it. Such an exercise gives rise to the affirmative defense of "entrapment." People frequently read more into this than is actually there. Broken down, the preceding paragraph says: 1. Government agents: This applies to the actions of those working for the government or acting on behalf of those working for the government. A private citizen cannot "entrap" a criminal unless he is acting on behalf of the government - note that this does not mean that he cannot do whatever he wants to with the intention of turning it over to the government. The government must be held accountable for the "entrapping" action for entrapment to apply. 2. The government must not implant the idea to commit a crime in the mind of an INNOCENT person. The government can, and routinely does, implant the idea to commit a crime in the minds of criminals under controlled circumstances. For example, Mohammad the Mugger is going to catch a train to visit his Momma having no intention to rob anyone when he encounters a "drunk" U/C cop with a gold chain that would look good on him. An innocent man would get on the train without the chain - if Mohammad goes for it, he's no innocent man. He is, in fact PREDISPOSED to commit the crime. [The test you hear argued to juries over and over is, "would you do what he did under those circumstances."] The fact that officers or employees of the government merely afford opportunity or facilities for the commission of the offense does not defeat the prosecution. Where the police, in effect, simply furnished the opportunity for the commission of the crime, that this is not enough to enable the defendant to escape conviction. Also, there is no "sneaky bastards" defense. Artifice and stratagem may be employed to catch those engaged in criminal enterprises - in other words, just because the government uses a pretext to set the person up, that does not negate the potential for successful prosecution. It is truly amazing how many people believe that they can ask a person if they are a cop and cry foul if they say, "No" and then arrest them. In the event that a criminal defendant raises the issue of entrapment, the question boils down to a two prong test. First, did government agents INDUCE the defendant to commit the crime? Second, was the defendant PREDISPOSED to commit the crime? INDUCEMENT occurs when the government creates a special incentive for the defendant to commit the crime. This incentive can consist of anything that materially alters the balance of risks and rewards bearing on defendant's decision as to whether to commit the offense, so as to increase the likelihood that he will engage in the particular criminal conduct. INDUCEMENT can be any government conduct including persuasion, fraudulent representations, threats, coercive tactics, harassment, promises of reward, or pleas based on need, sympathy or friendship. IF this first prong of the two prong test proves viable, the next question relates to PREDISPOSITION. PREDISPOSITION is the defendant's willingness to commit the offense prior to being contacted by government agents, coupled with the wherewithal to do so. If a defendant is predisposed to commit the offense, he will require little or no inducement to do so; conversely, if the government must work hard to induce a defendant to commit the offense, it is far less likely that he was predisposed. The relevant time frame for assessing a defendant's disposition comes before he has any contact with government agents, which is doubtless why its called PREDISPOSITION. In rebutting an entrapment defense, the prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant was disposed to commit the criminal act prior to first being approached by government agents. The ultimate principal at work here is, "When the government's quest for convictions leads to the apprehension of an otherwise law-abiding citizen who, if left to his own devices, likely would have never run afoul of the law, the courts should intervene." Finally, a word about a reality associated with affirmative defenses and appellate cases that you just don't ever seem to see in print. The way these things work in actual practice is that the government makes their case against the defendant, prosecutes him and, unless their behavior is utterly outrageously egregious, convicts them at the trial level. Guilty people do not prevail upon matters of technical merit at trial level nearly as often as televesion would have us believe. Joe Convict then files an appeal which they will lose UNLESS they persuade the appellate court that, VIEWING THE EVIDENCE IN THE LIGHT MOST FAVORABLE TO THE GOVERNMENT, there is no way a jury could have convicted them. In an entrapment appeal, the appellant must prove that no reasonable jury could have failed to recognize that the government induced them to commit a crime AND they were utterly lacking in predisposition. Think about this a minute - EVERY successful entrapment appeal exemplifies a situation where the government set up a person to commit a crime they would not have otherwise committed under circumstances in which it is so clear that NO JURY COULD SEE IT OTHERWISE when vhen viewed from the position MOST FAVORABLE TO THE GOVERMENT. That is scary and scarier still when you ask yourself how many defendants could not afford the appeal. If you read the case re Poehlman as cited below, you will find that he was convicted and served his time; it was only after he was released and the government tried to go after him a second time on the exact same facts that he filed an appeal and prevailed. In other words, even viewing the facts in the light most favorable to the government (which they are not supposed to do at trial level), it should have been clear to any jury that the government set him up to commit a crime he would never have otherwise committed. Read it - it's a pitiful case. Think about that before telling yourself, "They cannot do that - it's entrapment." Further Reading: United States v. Garcia, No. 00-10062, UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE NINTH CIRCUIT, 2001 U.S. App. LEXIS 300, December 15, 2000, Argued and Submitted, San Francisco, CA, January 5, 2001, Filed. Defendant's drug conviction was reversed and remanded, since he was entitled to an entrapment instruction when he presented some evidence that he was not predisposed to commit narcotics offenses, and some evidence of inducement. United States v. Lafreniere, No. 99-1318, UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE FIRST CIRCUIT, 236 F.3d 41; 2001 U.S. App. LEXIS 2, January 2, 2001, Decided. Defendant was not entitled to entrapment defense as he was not wrongfully induced to participate in drug deal and jury instruction was consistent with judicial precedent. United States v. Johnson, No. 99-3259, UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE SIXTH CIRCUIT, 2000 U.S. App. LEXIS 22723, September 5, 2000, Filed. Evidence supporting state senator's conviction for extortion under color of official right was sufficient where evidence showed he was predisposed to commit the crimes and was not the target of improper government inducement. United States v. Poehlman, No. 98-50631, UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE NINTH CIRCUIT, 217 F.3d 692; 2000 U.S. App. LEXIS 14628; 2000 Cal. Daily Op. Service 5157; 2000 Daily Journal DAR 6887, December 6, 1999, Argued and Submitted, Pasadena, California, June 27, 2000, Filed. Conviction reversed and remanded on finding as a matter of law that the government induced defendant to commit the criminal act and there was no indication that defendant was prone to engage in sexual relations with minors. (This is a fascinating case!!!) Read the full text Here. United States v. Brooks, No. 99-3448, UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE EIGHTH CIRCUIT, 215 F.3d 842; 2000 U.S. App. LEXIS 13688, March 14, 2000, Submitted, June 14, 2000, Filed, As Corrected June 26, 2000. Where a government agent first sold defendant heroin, then coerced him into selling the heroin back to another agent, these facts showed that defendant was entrapped as a matter of law. United States v. Barnett, No. 98-30365, UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE FIFTH CIRCUIT, 197 F.3d 138; 1999 U.S. App. LEXIS 30360, November 22, 1999, Decided, Rehearing Denied December 29, 1999, Reported at: 1999 U.S. App. LEXIS 34984. Certiorari Denied May 15, 2000, Reported at: 2000 U.S. LEXIS 3220. Court affirmed defendant's convictions, reversed codefendant's, for conspiracy to commit murder for hire; aiding, abetting attempted murder for hire. There was no evidence codefendant intended to be involved in murder. United States v. Finley, No. 98-2721, UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE EIGHTH CIRCUIT, 175 F.3d 645; 1999 U.S. App. LEXIS 8200, March 9, 1999, Submitted, April 29, 1999, Filed, Rehearing En Banc and Rehearing Denied June 8, 1999, Reported at: 1999 U.S. App. LEXIS 12000. Certiorari Denied January 10, 2000, Reported at: 2000 U.S. LEXIS 404. In defendant's trial for using the mail with the intent that a murder-for-hire be committed, evidence that defendant was predisposed to the crime precluded a successful defense of entrapment. State v. Preston, 2 CA-CR 98-0524, COURT OF APPEALS OF ARIZONA, DIVISION TWO, DEPARTMENT A, 197 Ariz. 461; 4 P.3d 1004; 2000 Ariz. App. LEXIS 71; 317 Ariz. Adv. Rep. 3, March 14, 2000, Filed. Requiring clear and convincing proof of entrapment was constitutional but, even though defense required admission of offense elements, jury instructions on presumption of innocence and reasonable doubt were unconstitutionally eliminated. SOOHOO v. STATE, CASE NO. 97-3891, COURT OF APPEAL OF FLORIDA, FOURTH DISTRICT, 737 So. 2d 1108; 1999 Fla. App. LEXIS 6495; 24 Fla. Law W. D 1219, May 19, 1999, Opinion Filed, Released for Publication June 4, 1999. Egregious conduct by government's confidential informant constituted entrapment sufficient to overturn appellant's conviction of drug trafficking, as informant was virtually unsupervised in structuring, distributing, and promoting drug sales. State v. Weaver, NO. 99-KA-2177, COURT OF APPEAL OF LOUISIANA, FOURTH CIRCUIT, 99-2177 (La.App. 4 Cir, 12/06/00);, 2000 La. App. LEXIS 3000, December 6, 2000, Decided. Conviction and sentence were upheld because appellant failed to prove that he was induced to commit an act that he was not already predisposed to commit; and the State established the validity of the prior guilty pleas and convictions. State v. Green, No. 99-KA-2847, COURT OF APPEAL OF LOUISIANA, FOURTH CIRCUIT, 99-2847 (La.App. 4 Cir, 11/29/00);, 2000 La. App. LEXIS 2965, November 29, 2000, Decided. Released for Publication January 19, 2001. Conviction and sentence of appellant for distribution of cocaine was affirmed as appellant failed to show entrapment, he was a fourth felony offender, and as such he was properly sentenced to life imprisonment. State v. Alford, No. 99-KA-0299, COURT OF APPEAL OF LOUISIANA, FOURTH CIRCUIT, 99-0299 (La.App. 4 Cir, 06/14/00);, 765 So. 2d 1120; 2000 La. App. LEXIS 1523, June 14, 2000, Decided, Released for Publication August 3, 2000. Because appellant quickly assured undercover officer that he could obtain cocaine in response to request, offered officer marijuana, and encouraged officer to wait for delivery, appellant was predisposed to sell cocaine. STATE v. BRADFORD, No. 32,747-KA, COURT OF APPEAL OF LOUISIANA, SECOND CIRCUIT, 32,747 (La.App. 2 Cir, 10/27/99);, 745 So. 2d 800; 1999 La. App. LEXIS 2952, October 27, 1999, Rendered. The evidence established intent and delivery elements to support conviction for distribution of cocaine, and the entrapment defense failed because officer merely presented defendant a chance to commit the crime to which he was predisposed. From massmail at lb.bcentral.com Sun Sep 9 15:47:26 2001 From: massmail at lb.bcentral.com (Anonymouse) Date: 9 Sep 2001 22:47:26 -0000 Subject: , , . Message-ID: <1000075646.36149.qmail@ech> ��������� �������! ��� ����� ���������� ? ���������� � ��� ������, ���������, �����, �����������. ��� ������� �����������, ��� ���������. ��� ������-̻ ���������� ��� ��������������� ����� ����������� � ����� �� ���� �������� ������ ������������ ��� ������������, �����, ��������, ���������� � �. �., ������ ����� ����, ��� ���� �� ����� ������������ ���� ������������, ������� ���������� ��� ������. ��������� �������� ������ � �������� ��������������� � ������������ �� ������ � ������, �� � �� �������, �� ����� ����������� ��������� ���� ������ �������� ����� � � ���������� �����. ������ ����� ������������ �������� �����. ��� ������� �����������, ������ �� ������ �������� ��������, ����������, �� � ��������� ������������� ��� �������������, ��� � ���������� �������������� ����������� �������. ��� ����� ����� ��� International Rectifier, Epcos, Bourns, Metex, unit-t � ��. ��� ������� ��������������- ��������� ���������, ������-����, ������, �������, �����, ����� � �.�. ��� �������� �������, ������������ ��� ������������, �������� �������, ����������� ��� ������ � ������������ �����������, ������, ��������� ������������ � �.�. ��� ������� ��������- � ��������� ����� �� ������������ ���������� ����������� �������� �������-������ ����������. � ������ �������� ���������, ������������ ����� ������,�� ������� ������������ �� ����� ����� � ��������: vielm.narod.ru ���������� �� ������ ����� ����� ��������� ����������� � ������������������. �� �� ������ ������������� ����������, ��� ����� ������� ������ ��� ���������, �� ���� �������� ��� ���������� ����� �� �������� ��� ��� ����� � � ���������� �������� �����. ���� ����������� � ��������� �������������� �� ����� �����, �� ������ ��������� �� ��� ����: (095) 275-89-94, ��� �� ����������� �����: tandiv at mail.ru . �� ���� ��� � �������� ����������� � ���, ��� ����������� � ���, �� �������� ����������������� ������, ������������ ��������� � ����� ������������, ����������� ��������� ������ ������. �� ���� �������� �� ������ ���������� �� ���������: 275-89-94, 746-68-78. _______________________________________________________________________ Powered by List Builder To unsubscribe follow the link: http://lb.bcentral.com/ex/manage/subscriberprefs?customerid=15131&subid=C5DAB078FD994ABD&msgnum=1 From jamesd at echeque.com Sun Sep 9 23:03:30 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 23:03:30 -0700 Subject: More (Was Re: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3B9BF542.1634.74E4FB@localhost> -- On 9 Sep 2001, at 17:35, Matthew Gaylor wrote: > If Brian Dalton hopes to have his conviction for pandering > obscenity thrown out, his new attorneys will have to prove he > received poor legal counsel. But the attorney who represented > Dalton said that wasn't the case. "With all the facts that I > know, I believe he was effectively represented,'' said Isabella > Dixon, Dalton's original attorney. If your lawyer advises you to plead guilty without a plea bargain in place with a known penalty. or the charge bargained down to something with a small maximum penalty, that advice is so bad as suggest some conflict of interest or impropriety on the part of lawyer giving the advice. One would expect such advice from a court appointed lawyer who is taking his orders from the prosecution. Even if you are guilty as hell and they will have no difficulty proving it, you can bargain something out of them by threatening to put them to the trouble of actually proving it. Even if what Isabella Dixon says was true, it would still be a shocking impropriety for her to say it, since she is trying to influence the case in the direction of keeping her client in jail. The very fact that she is saying it suggests that it is not true. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG N+gTXtqTXzV+LqsT3VhwRNgg4WD0U1FCGjZJHe2R 4m5oCaRdB2JNt4mAF+yMc6WYVrMpA1l8jJs96RihK From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Sep 10 05:07:48 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 07:07:48 -0500 (CDT) Subject: update.555 (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 11:29:40 -0400 (EDT) From: AIP listserver To: physnews-mailing at aip.org Subject: update.555 PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News Number 555 September 6, 2001 by Phillip F. Schewe, Ben Stein, and James Riordon EVIDENCE FOR A RE-IONIZATION ERA in the early universe [SSZ: text deleted] SUPERCONDUCTIVITY AT 117 K IN A BUCKYBALL CRYSTAL has been observed by [SSZ: text deleted] LASER-LIKE AMPLIFICATION OF ENTANGLED PARTICLES has been achieved by a University of Oxford team. Governed by quantum physics, entangled particles have much stronger correlations, or interrelationships, than anything allowed in classical physics. For example, measuring one entangled particle instantly influences its partner's state, even if the two particles are separated by great distances. Entangled particles are the bread-and-butter of quantum information schemes such as quantum cryptography, quantum computing, and quantum teleportation. But they are notoriously difficult to create in bulk. To create entangled photons, for example, researchers can send laser light through a barium borate crystal. Passing through the crystal, a photon sometimes splits into two entangled photons (each with half the energy of the initial photon). However, this only occurs for one in every ten billion incoming photons. To increase the yield, the Oxford researchers added a step: they put mirrors beyond the crystal so that the laser pulse and entangled pair could reflect, and have the chance to interact. Since the entangled pair and reflected laser pulse behave as waves, quantum mechanics says that they could interfere constructively to generate fourfold more two-photon pairs or interfere destructively to create zero pairs. Following these steps, the researchers increased production of two-photon entangled pairs and also of rarer states such as four-photon entangled quartets. This achievement could represent a step towards an entangled-photon laser, which would repeatedly amplify entangled particles to create greater yields than previously possible, and also towards the creation of new and more complex kinds of entangled states. (Lamas-Linares et al., Nature, 30 August 2001.) From ravage at ssz.com Mon Sep 10 05:20:31 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 07:20:31 -0500 Subject: Yahoo - Newsweek Cover: 'The Secret Vote That Made Bush President' Message-ID: <3B9CB00F.E91E6917@ssz.com> http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/010909/nysu009a_1.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Sep 10 05:40:27 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 07:40:27 -0500 Subject: SIG: Linux Today - Linux Journal: GPG: the Best Free Crypto You Aren't Using, Part I of II Message-ID: <3B9CB4BB.FA91596@ssz.com> http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2001-09-09-006-20-SC-SW -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From Wilie430 at hotmail.com Mon Sep 10 10:52:08 2001 From: Wilie430 at hotmail.com (Wilie430 at hotmail.com) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 10:52:08 Subject: -._.䡥`.- Register to win your Dream Vacation -._.䡥`. Message-ID: You have been specially selected to qualify for the following: Premium Vacation Package and Pentium PC Giveaway To review the details of the please click on the link with the confirmation number below: http://wintrip.my163.com or http://wintrip.chn.net or http://wintrip.yes8.com Confirmation Number#Lh340 Please confirm your entry within 24 hours of receipt of this confirmation. Wishing you a fun filled vacation! If you should have any additional questions or cann't connect to the site do not hesitate to contact me direct: mailto:vacation at btamail.net.cn?subject=Help! 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From Meggi141 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 10 10:52:10 2001 From: Meggi141 at yahoo.com (Meggi141 at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 10:52:10 Subject: <<<< Win One of 25 Dream Vacation Getaways!! >>>> Message-ID: <200109100140.KAA00802@posvan.co.kr> You have been specially selected to qualify for the following: Premium Vacation Package and Pentium PC Giveaway To review the details of the please click on the link with the confirmation number below: http://wintrip.my163.com or http://wintrip.chn.net or http://wintrip.yes8.com Confirmation Number#Lh340 Please confirm your entry within 24 hours of receipt of this confirmation. Wishing you a fun filled vacation! If you should have any additional questions or cann't connect to the site do not hesitate to contact me direct: mailto:vacation at btamail.net.cn?subject=Help! From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Mon Sep 10 08:37:12 2001 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 11:37:12 -0400 Subject: Sen. Hollings plans to introduce DMCA sequel: The SSSCA References: <200109080430.f884UoW14385@mailserver1.hushmail.com> Message-ID: <3B9CDE28.70807@dragonsweb.org> keyser-soze at hushmail.com wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > > WASHINGTON -- Music and record industry lobbyists are quietly readying > an all-out assault on Congress this fall in hopes of dramatically > rewriting copyright laws. > > > With the help of Fritz Hollings (D-S.C.), the powerful chairman of the > Senate Commerce committee, they hope to embed copy-protection controls > in nearly all consumer electronic devices and PCs. All types of > digital content, including music, video and e-books, are covered. > > > I think any Senator who signs on for this has earned killing. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: Hush 2.0 > > wmAEARECACAFAjuZn90ZHGtleXNlci1zb3plQGh1c2htYWlsLmNvbQAKCRAg4ui5IoBV > n+PdAJ9jUDWNMjCZz1zmymJde+ZNF4ugpwCeNHQzOK1ukMHqHhypLa1bhsfofg4= > =olMy > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > No, no, no. You don't kill the whores. Goddam, you wanna be known as a psycho serial killer or something? They're just doing their job, and you yourself may have need of them. Go for an honorable alternative. Beat up and run their pimps out of town. jbdigriz From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Mon Sep 10 10:11:48 2001 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 13:11:48 -0400 Subject: Melon traffickers --> Soul traffickers References: <200109060041.f860fcf08858@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: <3B9CF454.6010302@dragonsweb.org> Tim May wrote: > On Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 05:08 PM, Eric Murray wrote: > > >>This was discussed long ago on cypherpunks, in fact the cyphernomicon >>says: >> >> 8.9.7. Possible legal steps to limit the use of remailers and >> anonymous systems >> - hold the remailer liable for content, i.e., no common >> carrier status >> - insert provisions into the various "anti-hacking" laws to >> criminalize anonymous posts >> >>(all of 8.9 is worth re-reading for this discussion). >> >> > > Thanks. I try not to quote my own ancient writings, but it's clear that > a lot of the posters of the past couple of years are not familiar with > the older writings (which is sort of excusable...) and have not thought > deeply about the issues (which is not). > > >>Tim, do you really mean to say that you now think that a remailer >>is a publisher, not a common carrier? Maybe I lost track in all >>the devil's advocate indirection... >> > > I take no position one way or another. But "common carrier" status is > not something that is automatically achieved. The telephone companies > got it, to prevent phone companies from being shut down or from > listening in on conversations. I'm not an expert in the history of > "common carrier" legislation. (It may be described in Ithiel de sola > Pool's seminal history of the telephone and liberty, though.) > > My point was the claim some are making that government may "license all > remailers" seems unlikely. > > I often talk about "re-commenters" (hyphen added to emphasize the > "commenter" part). If I get mail, or letters, or e-mail, and then pass > it along to my friends or others, WHERE IN THE FIRST does it say I need > permission from government? > > Imagine someone sent to prison for the crime of passing along messages > he received. > > >>I think that being a publisher, while it gives many rights, is not >>nearly >>as good as being a common carrier. My understanding of "common >>carrrier" >>in this context is that the common carrier is not held responsible >>at all for the traffic that it carries. It can lose its common >>carrier status by editing-- then it's acting like a publisher, and >>is responsible for the material that it edits and publishes... >> > > There may be an item in the Cyphernomicon about this misconception, that > common carrier status is something people apply for. It used to be > claimed by some (don't here it as much anymore) than even bookstores > could be treated as common carriers "so long as they didn't screen the > books they sold." > > >>(follow the links inthat article to find that teh CDA gives some >>safe harbor for "provider or user of an interactive computer >>service" for editing content to get rid of obscene, etc. material.) >> > > The CDA did indeed give safe harbor...but what the CDA giveth, CDA II or > the Children's Protection Act can taketh away. > > >> >>I'm not up on the current state of this. >>Is it no longer possible to consider a remailer (or an ISP or >>BBS) a common carrier and thus "publisher" is the best to hope for? >>Or is it that "publisher", while carrying fewer rights, is much >>less likely to be held invalid? >> > > No significant precedents in this area that I have ever heard of. > > --Tim May > > > Common carrier status for ISP's is not automatic, under the '96 Telecom Act and later additions. You have to file with the FCC and promise to remove material anybody complains about, etc. in exchange for indemnification from liablility. I took a look at it and said "Fuck the dumb shit." Choate is right on this one. jbdigriz From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Mon Sep 10 10:59:32 2001 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 13:59:32 -0400 Subject: Melon traffickers --> Soul traffickers References: <200109060041.f860fcf08858@slack.lne.com> <3B9CF454.6010302@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <3B9CFF84.8010404@dragonsweb.org> James B. DiGriz wrote: > > Common carrier status for ISP's is not automatic, under the '96 Telecom > Act and later additions. You have to file with the FCC and promise to > remove material anybody complains about, etc. in exchange for > indemnification from liablility. > > I took a look at it and said "Fuck the dumb shit." Choate is right on > this one. > > jbdigriz > > In fact, IIRC, common-carrier status for ISPs as I describe above was actually implemented in the DMCA. Been a while since I looked at it; will have to check. It doesn't appear to have stopped anybody from getting sued for third parties infringing on copyrights, though. jbdigriz From jya at pipeline.com Mon Sep 10 15:58:20 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 15:58:20 -0700 Subject: UKUSA Courts Monitoring Message-ID: <200109102005.QAA27927@smtp6.mindspring.com> Wouldn't it be provocative to imagine that HMG and USG were exchanging monitoring of high courts under a "you watch mine, I'll watch yours" UKUSA pact. For example, this DNS entry: Host, master (HM-ORG-ARIN) hostmaster at USCOURTS.GOV Nortel Plc F.A.O. Andrew MacphersonLondon HarlowEssex GB (202) 273-2640 Fax- (202) 273-2651 Record last updated on 13-Aug-1998. Database last updated on 8-Sep-2001 23:09:15 EDT. Does a US network service administer the HMG high courts? Perhaps both nations distrustful of employees of native administrators, or perhaps both systems run by each other's intel agencies, either openly or under cover of companies. URLs of US courts restricted networks referred to in recent monitoring flaps as "DCN": http://docushare.circ11.dcn/ http://156.130.16.96/ From sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 10 16:00:28 2001 From: sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com (CJ Parker) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 16:00:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: William Jaquette Is Full Of Shit Message-ID: <20010910230028.14426.qmail@web20207.mail.yahoo.com> to: letters at seattleweekly.com "After shrinks found Elledge competent, [William] Jaquette [Elledge's Court Appointed Attorney] represented his client's death wishes, which was difficult because of his passionate opposition to the death penalty. "Everybody in a free society, Jaquette says, has the right to choose and direct his own defense." ~'Witness To An Execution,' Michael Hood Seattle Weekly, September 6, 2001 What a CrockOfShit!!! During my trial, Judge Robert Bryan forced Court Appointed Counsel (Gene Grantham) upon me, against my wishes, and the "right to choose and direct [my] own defense," disappeared faster than Jalapenos screaming through a Rat's AssHole. Contrary to all legal precedent, Judge Bryan decided that I was FitToBeTried, but not fit to represent myself, clearing the way for Court Appointed Counsel to refuse to mount a viable defense, and thus ThrowingMeToTheDogs. Three judges on the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals also declared a defendant's "right to choose and direct his own defense" to be a LaughAbleJoke easily circumvented on the smallest of pretexes in the Ninth Circuit. Thus, Mr. Jaquette's lame excuse to having "represented his client as his professional ethics require" is nothing more than an obvious attempt to deny his own willing complicity in the MURDER of his client. Would Mr. Jaquette have us believe that his ethics are of a higher than those of Judge Bryan and the members of the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals? That the Judges of the Ninth Circuit Court can ethically refuse a defendant charged with merely threating someone the "right to choose and direct his own defense," but Mr. Jaquette cannot ethically refuse to participate in the MURDER of a client charged with murder? When Mr. Jaquette stated "the death penalty makes killers of us all," he was obviously not speaking for the Judges of the Ninth Circuit Court, but merely for himself. I find it ironic that Mr. Elledge could be 'ethically' MURDERED by his Court Appointed Attorney, but not by the Ninth Circuit Judges who participated in my case, since their view is that the 'right' Mr. Jaqauette cites to excuse his complicity in the MURDER of his client does not exist. I can't help but wonder if, had Elledge chosen hanging instead of injection, Mr. Jaquette would not have been one of the 'witnesses' hollering, "Jump! Jump!" Sincerely, Carl E. Johnson #05987-196 "Proud To Be A Felon In Ameri%a" ['%' Is4Swastika] [4343 Lincoln Ave NE, Renton, WA 98056 (917)861-2044] ===== CJ Parker #05987-196 "Proud To Be A Felon In Ameri%a!" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com From sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 10 16:02:45 2001 From: sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com (CJ Parker) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 16:02:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: No subject Message-ID: <20010910230245.14729.qmail@web20207.mail.yahoo.com> On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Duncan Frissell Wrote In A Panic @ Panix: > Anyone with half a brain could put on a stronger defense than the two previous victims. Funny you should mention that, Duncan... The second day of my incarceration, after the initial hearing at which I was effectively denied my Constitutional Right to self-representation by having an attorney appointed to 'help' me and then had my request to proceed forthwith denied by the Alleged Judge in order to give the unwanted 'helper' time to "prepare" for what he had already declared to be an unstoppable formality, I was thrown into The Hole [TM] at the Corrections Corporation of America Federal Prison Facility in Florence, Arizona. I was put in a cold air-conditioned cell with no mattress, no bedding, and was provided with no clothing other than a thin pair of boxer shorts. I was denied reading materials and exercise and medical treatment and spent the next month and a half in what amounted to a sensory-deprivation environment with no way to keep track of either Time or Reality. In spite of this, upon having contact with my sister, Alia, I distinctly remember telling her that, despite the conditions in which I was being held, and being denied access to any sort of legal resources, that I was confident that I could present an effective defense to the charges against me, as long as I..."manage[d] to preserve half of my brain." Foolish me, I believed at the time that I would be able to manage to do so, given the fact that I had succeeded in doing so through a lifetime of dealing with disabilities and hard roads in a myriad of situations in which I did not always exercise the best judgment or get the best of life's breaks. However, I was unaware that the GovernMint would be subjecting me to Imprisonment Without Bail or even a Bail Hearing for almost a full Year on my way to what would later be declared to be a 'Speedy Trial' in some Mysterious Process which was kept Hidden from *me*, even though it was my Motion To The Court that was being (Secretly) Ruled On, and that, during this time, I would continue to be denied even the most basic of Rights&OR&Privileges that are commonly provided to Felons already Convicted of even the most Heinous of Crimes (e.g. - At Various Times -- Food, Water, Exercise, Medical and Medicinal Needs, Access To Legal Resources and Contact with My Family or even the Attorneys who were being appointed, against my wishes, to provide a Rubber-Stamp Representation that allowed the GooberMint Offal $chill$ to proceed smoothly with their prosecution without the bother of some Pesky Defendant presenting them with a Defense that would actually Question the GovernMent's Allegations&OR&Accusations. > CJ & JB didn't really even try. For example, neither got real lawyers. If the 10% of the Memory I have left Serves me correctly, I believe that every effort Jim Bell made to dump his 'unreal' lawyer[s] was denied by the Court. As well, I recall posts to the CPUNX List after JB's first arrest in which various individuals (including lawyers?) reported that their missives to Bell's attorney, offering assistance/expertise on Jim's behalf, were ignored by the attorney, and were no doubt never brought to his client's attention. As for myself, despite filing a variety of Pro Se Motions to allow me my Constitutional Right to Self-Representation, I had *forced* upon me an 'unreal' lawyer who was not only one of the worst legal representatives I have ever dealt with, but who also thwarted every effort I made to exert even the least influence or control over the direction or quality of my legal defense (as well as denying me access to, or even knowledge of, legal materials and advice that were being sent to me by family, friends and 'real' attorneys). Nonetheless, despite the Court's efforts to deny me access to a 'real' attorney, I did, in fact, have one working *for* me. The Irony, OfCourseOfCourse [TM] is that my Secret 'Real' Attorney was not even a Member of the Bar, at that time. His name was Greg Broiles. Greg directly provided me with an assortment of legal cites and cases which not only included *everything* quoted by the GovernMint Prosecutor, London, and the Defense Persecuter, Grantham, during the course of the AllegedInary Trial , but also included cases involving a wide variety of defenses which could have - and *should* have - been used. I ended up having another 'real' attorney, in retrospect...myself... After two days of perusing the material Greg sent me, I ended up rejecting a defense, which later proved to be the exact defense that Grantham (without informing me) was mounting. According to my reading of the very same law quoted by both the Prosecutor and my DeFarce Attorney, the Ninth Circuit Court believes that for a Citizen to be Guilty of the Crimes with which I was Charged, the Prosecution needs only to prove that A Casual Friend Of A Distant Relative Of The AllegedInary Victim thinks that MayBe the AllegedInary Victim PerhapsMightCouldHaveOrCouldRemotelyEnvision Feeling The Slightest Bit Uneasy over the Situation after Law EnFarceMint Offal $chill$ made every effort to ScareTheLivingBeJesusOutOf the AllegedInary Victim... In short, in light of the case, as presented, I agreed at the time, and still agree, with the beliefs of the Prosecutor, and the ruling of the Judge - according to Ninth Circuit Law. > We either have the money or the emotional resources to corral a defense. You appear to be assuming, of course (and not unreasonably in a Perry Mason / Ben Matlock TV-Reality Society) that 'money' and a recognizably 'real' defense would result in a different outcome. However, this would only be true in a situation where the Court actually FaithFullyFollowed both the Spirit Of The Law, and the Established Rulings of Previous Case Law. If, in fact, you review the Motions I presented to the Court, I believe you will find that the Court, in my case, Blatantly Ignored Clear, Established Precedents of basic Constitutional Law, and indeed had to jump through what *should* have been mBareAssing FaultyLogicalLoops (had THEY [TM] any SenseOfShame) in order to provide me with a 'Trial' in which I was Denied: 1. My Constitutional Right To Self-Representation 2. My Constitutional Right To A Bail Hearing 3. My Constitutional Right To A Speedy Trial 3. My Constitutional Right To View (&OR&Contest) The Evidence Against Me 4. EtcEtcEtAlAdInfinituuuuuummmmmm... As A Matter Of Fact [TM], if you take a look at the Appeal presented to the Ninth Circuit Court by 'real' attorney (he even uses 'Esq.' after his name on his business card, eh?), Todd MayBrown, I believe you will find that he quoted the Same Legal Cases, Precedents&OR&Arguments, in the Appeal Brief, that I presented in my Original Motions to the Court. The reason he did so, is that I was right, in the first place...and still am... Although I feel that MayBrown would have, given the 'money' (and thus the 'time') that your referenced 'we' have, proceeded with a variety of other issues on appeal which *should* have been raised, nonetheless success would *still* be dependent upon the Appeals Court itself actually following the law instead of Jumping Through New Improved FaultyLogicalHoops in order to JusticeFie Judge Bryan's Original FaultyLogicHoops in order to come to such an UnJusticeFiable Ruling that THEY [TM] had to rule it UnFit2BQuoted in any other Ninth Circuit Case. Todd MayBrown, Esq., did, in fact, to his EverLasting Credit, have the Decency &OR& Balls/Audacity, in his Appeal to the Supreme Court, to refer to the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeal's ruling as 'DisInGenuOus', which, as EveryBody &OR& His Proverbial Brother (nobody at replay.com?) Knows...can be Accurately TransLated as: "Lying Scum-Sucking PiecesOfShit who are Blatantly Ignoring the Law in order to Support an Abhorrent Legal Constitutional Abuses serving no other purpose than to ThrowASeriousFuckInto..." ...Yours Truly, ===== CJ Parker #05987-196 "Proud To Be A Felon In Ameri%a!" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Mon Sep 10 13:24:47 2001 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 16:24:47 -0400 Subject: Melon traffickers --> Soul traffickers References: <200109060041.f860fcf08858@slack.lne.com> <3B9CF454.6010302@dragonsweb.org> <3B9CFF84.8010404@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <3B9D218F.3030405@dragonsweb.org> James B. DiGriz wrote: > James B. DiGriz wrote: > >> >> Common carrier status for ISP's is not automatic, under the '96 >> Telecom Act and later additions. You have to file with the FCC and >> promise to remove material anybody complains about, etc. in exchange >> for indemnification from liablility. >> >> I took a look at it and said "Fuck the dumb shit." Choate is right on >> this one. >> >> jbdigriz >> >> > > In fact, IIRC, common-carrier status for ISPs as I describe above was > actually implemented in the DMCA. Been a while since I looked at it; > will have to check. It doesn't appear to have stopped anybody from > getting sued for third parties infringing on copyrights, though. > > jbdigriz > > http://www.loc.gov/copyright/onlinesp/ Copyright office, not the FCC DMCA is a piece of crap though. Probably illegal as hell, but IANAL. Anyway it's stupid to assume a liability that is not yours to begin with , for the dubious prospect of obtaining an alleged limitation on said liablity. I notice Napster has a Designated Agent registered with the Copyright Office. Lot of fucking good it did them. jbdigriz From sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 10 16:26:56 2001 From: sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com (CJ Parker) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 16:26:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Privacy Alert Message-ID: <20010910232656.56976.qmail@web20205.mail.yahoo.com> On August 32, 2001, at 25:35 EDT, John Gilmore wrote: > I just received this alarming news and thought I would >pass it along. > > Privacy Alert Foundation > WARNING! >Several years ago, the PAF warned consumers of the intrusion on >personal privacy by Safeway Food Stores, in which they offered >customers 'A Nickle Off On A Can Of Beans' for joining their >'Safeway Shoppers Club,' which required members to provide >Safeway with copious amounts of personal information about >the customer's private life, personal income, employment, and >personal buying habits. >Due to our warning, Safeway Food Stores was forced to begin >offering customers much larger savings in order to convince >them to part with information which could be used to intrude >on their privacy and perform consumer manipulation tactics on >'Safeway Shoppers Club' members. >Now, Safeway Food Stores is escalating it's Captive Consumer >Program to a frightening level, with its 'Safeway Super Saver >Elite Consumer Club,' which offers customers with incomes >exceeding $50,000 an extra 25% in savings, in return for >providing Safeway with the Personal Access Codes to their >credit cards, computers, and a copy of their PGP Private Keys. >An investigation by the Privacy Alert Foundation has determined >that the 'Safeway Super Saver Elite Consumer Club' Security >Director is a newly-hired employee who was recently released >from the Federal Correction Institute, in Three Rivers, Texas. >The PAF believes this warrents a Severe Consumer Warning in >regard to the 'Safeway Super Saver Elite Consumer Club.' [Court Ordered Fair Warning Notification] In keeping with a Court Order requiring me to notify recipients of my personal correspondence of any existing factors which would tend to implicate them as a suspect or accessory to any illegal or illicit actions on my part, simply as a result of overt association with me in any manner, recipients of this correspondence should be aware that I am currently driving around with the body of Jimmy Hoffa in my trunk. ----------------------------------------- Prisoner Of Whores #05987-196 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com From WebMaster1954 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 10 16:56:28 2001 From: WebMaster1954 at yahoo.com (WebMaster1954 at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 16:56:28 Subject: ADV: I bet that I make more money in the Web design business than you do. Time:4:56:28 PM Message-ID: <200109102324.QAA13221@toad.com> I bet that I make more money in the Web design business than you do. >From the customers I received last month I made $1560 income. I also profited on these people $1000 up front. And you know the funniest part? I didn't even design their sites! They did it for themselves! I bet your sales pitch doesn't come anywhere near mine. My sales pitch looks like this: Free Website! Free .com, .net, or .org name! Free First Month! Free Shopping Cart for E-commerce! Free Secure Credit Card Transaction Server Access! Free Website Editor! (Allows you to control your entire site from anywhere in the world with nothing more than your Internet browser!) Free Website Statistics Analysis! Unlimited everything! Unlimited Email Addresses! Unlimited Hosting Space! Unlimited Bandwidth! Unlimited Pages! Unlimited Capacity of items in the Shopping Cart! Fastest Websites!!! (Hosted on the best servers and bandwidth anywhere!) Website Promotion Options... There is nothing left to add to this service! If you can use a word processor, You can manage your own website! Only $35/month after your first FREE month! Everything you need to be doing business online NOW is here for only $25! (Limited time offer) I have been advertising this pitch on the front of my website for my design business 1 month, I have received over 40 signups. People SIGNUP EVERY SINGLE DAY. Almost, they bunch up on the weekends often. 1 month= $1560 income that comes in every month with no work! I will beat that number this month easily, but assuming I just keep up the same pace, next month will net $3,120 PROFIT. FOR A FACT I will be netting at least $10,720 a month by the end of the year. I got that number after subtracting $8000 to account for cancellations down the line. That is a ton of money! I can not even think of a way to not hit that number unless I completely stopped doing everything. My service is also better. You can't give anyone the as much value as I can. You can't give them the power to control their site as I can. You can't give them the prices that I can. You can't get them online as fast as I can. And even if somehow you found a way to do all that, you won't able to keep your customers as long as I do. Wow. Don't believe me? The interface I give my customers is easier to use than any other I have seen. It is by far the best web based interface you will ever see. A monkey would have a hard time making a site look bad with the software I include for my Customers. I charge them $35 a month and I only pay $10! I know I could charge a lot more for the service, but I am more interested in getting as many customers as possible now, than I am on making more on them. If you did the numbers to make sure I wasn't making them up, you'll see $560 missing this month. Where did it come from? There is an optional search engine submission program, that 70 percent of the people that signup opt for, I charge them $30/month. I pay $10. If they do decide they would like custom work done, no problem. I do it for them, and they don't try to bother me to change little things all the time on their site, because I give them the power to do it themselves, which they prefer. I like it to, keeps my time free for things I enjoy. In addition to being able to get at customers you can't, and being able to upsell them to all the custom design work I like, when ever I like, I bet I have a whole bunch of other things you DO NOT HAVE. Private Labeled to me Website Builder/Store Builder (Best Anywhere) Private Labeled to me Shopping Cart Private Labeled to me WebMail and Pop3 Service Private Labeled to me Secure Server Hosting Private Labeled to me Domain Name Registration Private Labeled to me Search Engine Submission Private Labeled to me Control Panel for FTP, email, user access... I can make as many new templates as I like to start them out from too. I also never have to pay for custom CGI work to provide E-Commerce solutions anymore. It is all done for me already, even the payment gateway integration. I use the same service my end-users use to do design work and It has cut my design time in more than half. I can make a complete E-Commerce enabled site in 15-30 minutes, email, shopping cart, ftp, running on the net! Can you do that?? Long story short. Unless you have some plans I don't know about, My business will be beating yours for sure in about 12 months. Can you compete? Are you getting customers as fast as I am? Are you making as much on them as I am? Is that money you are making staying with you every month? Is there a way for you to provide my customers something I don't? Can you say the same for yourself? I am going to let you in on SECRET now. Even though I know that my business will most likely be making a lot more than yours in 12 months, I am not greedy. I know that BIG money is not in being greedy. I know that No matter how much money my design company makes next year, If I combined 4-5 heavy hitters in the industry they would best me. How can I beat that? Easy. Use my connection with the company that made me what I am, and enabled me to do things that no other design companies could do. I am best friends with the president of the company that designed all the amazing server side software I use to power my business, and I know that if he wanted to, he could start turning on every webdesign company in the world as a dealer if they saw what I was making. So, instead of trying to convince him to not show anyone else the software I use to make so much money (impossible.) I figured out that the best thing for me to team up with him, show other people how I was making all the money that I was, and get cut in on the deal. Long story short. I am making a ton of money retailing my E-Commerce Solution, and I love it. Now that I have tasted that success, I have decided to take it to the next level, and give others the same ability to make that same money I do. I can get you in with the company that I deal with that provided me with all of those amazing things that make my service so awesome. My reward: If I introduce even a few people to my supplier so to speak. And those people become even half as successful with it as I have, I can have my buy rate reduced even further below $10 a month (which is already insanely cheap if you haven't noticed) Your reward: If you will probably be making even more money retailing it than I am. All I am doing is driving traffic to my website, people signup. You probably already have a customer base underneath you that would love the product, and are more likely to offer the custom design work than I. I don't do flash, and I don't even advertise on my site that I do custom design work at all. You know, I'll tell you the truth, this interface is so easy that anyone could do it. HTML knowledge or not, really anyone can be a full Design/Hosting/E-Commerce solution provider with this. They even will bill your customers for free for you. Saved me the trouble of getting another merchant account to accept credit cards for this. I paid over $2000 for the privledge of being able to do what I do. I am extremely happy about that because I know people who have paid over $7,000 to do the same. The ball game has changed though. They want to bring on successful dealers like me NOW. And to make this easier, they have dropped the pricing to $99, $299, or $999 depending on how good you want your buy rates. At $999 they are even eating the setup fees ($0 gets your customer a free domain name, and first month). Since I know how powerful a sales tool my website is, and I want everyone I bring on to be as successful as possible, I will even give you a copy of my website (customized to look like you invented it though) hosted for free to sell from. I know it works because I get signups every day. Then you are almost guaranteed to make a ton of money with it, as long as you get traffic to it. If you want to see some of the sites built by my solution, the site I have great success selling from, or how I make all the money I do with it, and how you can to, or to show awesome the software is to use, call me or email me. mailto:Webmaster1954 at yahoo.com 1-888-549-0766 or 1-954-585-6460 This week only. 11-7 EST. If you do not wish to receive email from me, email: emialjklmnop at yahoo.com or call. From sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 10 17:42:06 2001 From: sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com (CJ Parker) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 17:42:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Half A Brain Message-ID: <20010911004206.98461.qmail@web20203.mail.yahoo.com> ===== CJ Parker #05987-196 "Proud To Be A Felon In Ameri%a!" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Duncan Frissell - Half A Brain.doc Type: application/msword Size: 17920 bytes Desc: Duncan Frissell - Half A Brain.doc URL: From tcmay at got.net Mon Sep 10 18:15:03 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 18:15:03 -0700 Subject: federal bureaucrats, frequent fliers? In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010910142542.025c2cb0@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <200109110116.f8B1GGf29819@slack.lne.com> On Monday, September 10, 2001, at 05:33 PM, Declan McCullagh wrote: > Somehow this just seems really wrong... > > 3. Frequent flier legislation passes Senate committee By Tanya N. > Ballard An amendment to the Defense authorization bill (S. 1155) > allowing military personnel and federal workers to keep the frequent > flier miles they earn while traveling on the government's dime, was > approved by the Senate Armed Services Committee Friday. Senate > Governmental Affairs Committee Chairman Joseph Lieberman, D-Conn., > sponsored the amendment along with Sen. John Warner, R-Va. In August > Warner introduced S. 1369, a Senate bill that would have extended the > benefit to federal employees. The Defense authorization amendment would > allow military personnel, foreign service members, their families and > others who travel on official government business to keep their > frequent flier miles. "Soldiers, sailors, pilots, and Marines are on > call 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, prepared to go into harm's way," > Lieberman explained. "Letting them take advantage of frequent flier > programs--which cost the taxpayer absolutely nothing--is a small > gesture, but one that can mean a lot for morale." The Federal > Acquisition Streamlining Act of 1994 (Public Law 103-355) prohibits > federal employees from accepting promotional items they receive while > traveling at government expense. Those items included frequent flier > miles, upgrades and access to carrier clubs or facilities. Full story: > http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0901/091001t1.htm > Those same bureaucrats previously ruled (through the IRS tax code) that employees would be taxed at their normal tax rates on the putative market value of any "air miles" their employers allowed them to keep. Seem the various equal protection laws would forbid any special tax benefits for "military and federal" employees. However, since we are now an adhocracy, nothing more will be heard of this argument, least of all in the courts. --Tim May From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Mon Sep 10 10:11:02 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 19:11:02 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: IP: LITTLE BROTHER MAY BE WATCHING YOU (WITH X10 VIDEOCAMS): fromnewsscan daily (fwd) Message-ID: -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 12:56:41 -0400 From: David Farber Reply-To: farber at cis.upenn.edu To: ip-sub-1 at majordomo.pobox.com Subject: IP: LITTLE BROTHER MAY BE WATCHING YOU (WITH X10 VIDEOCAMS): from newsscan daily > > A company called X10 Wireless Technology is marketing its tiny color > video cameras for their use in keeping an eye on your kids or even > engaging in voyeuristic activity. One ad for the $79.99 device > displays a bare-backed woman and the headline "Quit Spying on People! > (we never told you to do that)." The technology uses radio frequencies > for communication among devices within a 100-foot radius, and > represents a development that one attorney says "is outstripping > everything we once contemplated about privacy." X10 devices have been > found planted secretly in such places as college shower rooms, > attorneys' offices, and corporate meeting rooms. (San Jose Mercury > News 10 Sep 2001) > http://www.siliconvalley.com/docs/news/svfront/027254.htm For archives see: http://www.interesting-people.org/ From info at giganetstore.com Mon Sep 10 11:45:59 2001 From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 19:45:59 +0100 Subject: Quinzena Microsoft Message-ID: <0e27a5945180a91WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com> Quinzena Microsoft De 10 a 24 de Setembro a Giganetstore.com oferece uma t-shirt Novidades Microsoft 2001 na compra de qualquer artigo microsoft. Temos também, para os aficionados de simuladores de voo, um passatempo onde pode ganhar um livro com todas as tacticas e dicas para o Combat Flight Simulator II. Veja alguns de muitos artigos microsoft que pode comprar na nossa loja. ----- Windows 2000 Professional ver. Completa (Pt) 89.040$00 Office XP Professional ver. Completa (Pt) 163.330$00 Intellimouse Explorer Optical 9.480$00 ----- Age of Empires II "Age of King" (Inglês) 7.840$00 Age of Empires II "The Conquerors Expansion" (Inglês - Expansão) 5.620$00 Combat Flight Simulator II The Pacific Theater 7.840$00 ----- SideWinder Dual Strike Gamepad - PC 8.310$00 Visual Basic 6.0 Professional ver. Completa 143.560$00 SideWinder Precision Racing Wheel PC 12.400$00 ----- Ver mais artigos » Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site http:\\www.giganetstore.com , ir à edição do seu registo e retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das nossas promoções e novos serviços. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 7731 bytes Desc: not available URL: From honig at sprynet.com Mon Sep 10 19:59:23 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 19:59:23 -0700 Subject: Melon traffickers --> Soul traffickers In-Reply-To: <3B9CFF84.8010404@dragonsweb.org> References: <200109060041.f860fcf08858@slack.lne.com> <3B9CF454.6010302@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010910195923.00950900@pop.sprynet.com> At 01:59 PM 9/10/01 -0400, James B. DiGriz wrote: >In fact, IIRC, common-carrier status for ISPs as I describe above was >actually implemented in the DMCA. Been a while since I looked at it; >will have to check. It doesn't appear to have stopped anybody from >getting sued for third parties infringing on copyrights, though. > >jbdigriz Implemented. Curious. The DMCA may have acknowledged that ISPs have immunity, being mere conduits, but the courts (sh|w)ould have decided that anyway. From declan at well.com Mon Sep 10 17:33:40 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 20:33:40 -0400 Subject: federal bureaucrats, frequent fliers? Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010910142542.025c2cb0@mail.well.com> Somehow this just seems really wrong... 3. Frequent flier legislation passes Senate committee By Tanya N. Ballard An amendment to the Defense authorization bill (S. 1155) allowing military personnel and federal workers to keep the frequent flier miles they earn while traveling on the government's dime, was approved by the Senate Armed Services Committee Friday. Senate Governmental Affairs Committee Chairman Joseph Lieberman, D-Conn., sponsored the amendment along with Sen. John Warner, R-Va. In August Warner introduced S. 1369, a Senate bill that would have extended the benefit to federal employees. The Defense authorization amendment would allow military personnel, foreign service members, their families and others who travel on official government business to keep their frequent flier miles. "Soldiers, sailors, pilots, and Marines are on call 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, prepared to go into harm's way," Lieberman explained. "Letting them take advantage of frequent flier programs--which cost the taxpayer absolutely nothing--is a small gesture, but one that can mean a lot for morale." The Federal Acquisition Streamlining Act of 1994 (Public Law 103-355) prohibits federal employees from accepting promotional items they receive while traveling at government expense. Those items included frequent flier miles, upgrades and access to carrier clubs or facilities. Full story: http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0901/091001t1.htm From a3495 at cotse.com Mon Sep 10 18:03:02 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 21:03:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Sociocultural Implications of Biometrics Message-ID: New online PDFs of possible interest from the RAND Corporation: Sociocultural Implications of Biometrics The Army is considering how it can use biometric systems -- automated methods of authenticating an individual based on physical or behavioral characteristics -- to improve security, efficiency, and convenience. Recognizing that biometrics is not without controversy, however, the Army asked RAND's Arroyo Center to assist in an assessment of the legal, sociological and ethical implications. A new publication reports the findings. http://www.rand.org/publications/MR/MR1237/ Privacy and Emerging Technologies A recent RAND conference, sponsored by the Arroyo Center, looked at the question of how emerging technologies such as biotechnology, computer monitoring, and overhead imaging impact privacy and privacy policy. The conference drew leading scholars, government officials, privacy advocates, journalists, attorneys, technologists, and industry representatives. http://www.rand.org/natsec_area/products/privconfnav.html Modernizing the National Imagery and Mapping Agency Over the past year, RAND has provided staff and analytic support to the Independent Commission on the National Imagery and Mapping Agency. (See related article.) Recently, Kevin O'Connell, Manager of RAND's Intelligence Community program, testified before the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence on the findings and recommendations of the commission. http://www.rand.org/hot/nima.html From PaulMerrill at acm.org Mon Sep 10 19:00:27 2001 From: PaulMerrill at acm.org (Paul H. Merrill) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 22:00:27 -0400 Subject: federal bureaucrats, frequent fliers? References: <200109110116.f8B1GGf29819@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: <3B9D703B.32C01A0F@ACM.Org> In this particular case, the legislation merely removes previously imposed limits which lowered some citizens below the rest. PHM Tim May wrote: > > On Monday, September 10, 2001, at 05:33 PM, Declan McCullagh wrote: > > > Somehow this just seems really wrong... > > > > 3. Frequent flier legislation passes Senate committee By Tanya N. > > Ballard An amendment to the Defense authorization bill (S. 1155) > > allowing military personnel and federal workers to keep the frequent > > flier miles they earn while traveling on the government's dime, was > > approved by the Senate Armed Services Committee Friday. Senate > > Governmental Affairs Committee Chairman Joseph Lieberman, D-Conn., > > sponsored the amendment along with Sen. John Warner, R-Va. In August > > Warner introduced S. 1369, a Senate bill that would have extended the > > benefit to federal employees. The Defense authorization amendment would > > allow military personnel, foreign service members, their families and > > others who travel on official government business to keep their > > frequent flier miles. "Soldiers, sailors, pilots, and Marines are on > > call 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, prepared to go into harm's way," > > Lieberman explained. "Letting them take advantage of frequent flier > > programs--which cost the taxpayer absolutely nothing--is a small > > gesture, but one that can mean a lot for morale." The Federal > > Acquisition Streamlining Act of 1994 (Public Law 103-355) prohibits > > federal employees from accepting promotional items they receive while > > traveling at government expense. Those items included frequent flier > > miles, upgrades and access to carrier clubs or facilities. Full story: > > http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0901/091001t1.htm > > > > Those same bureaucrats previously ruled (through the IRS tax code) that > employees would be taxed at their normal tax rates on the putative > market value of any "air miles" their employers allowed them to keep. > > Seem the various equal protection laws would forbid any special tax > benefits for "military and federal" employees. > > However, since we are now an adhocracy, nothing more will be heard of > this argument, least of all in the courts. > > --Tim May -- Paul H. Merrill, MCNE, MCSE+I, CISSP PaulMerrill at ACM.Org From PaulMerrill at acm.org Mon Sep 10 19:04:18 2001 From: PaulMerrill at acm.org (Paul H. Merrill) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 22:04:18 -0400 Subject: federal bureaucrats, frequent fliers? References: <200109110116.f8B1GGf29819@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: <3B9D7122.DE996698@ACM.Org> Oops, forgot to point out that "federal employees" in general are still treated as sub-citizens, Frequent Flier benefits are still limited to military, Foreign Service, and their families. PHM Tim May wrote: > > On Monday, September 10, 2001, at 05:33 PM, Declan McCullagh wrote: > > > Somehow this just seems really wrong... > > > > 3. Frequent flier legislation passes Senate committee By Tanya N. > > Ballard An amendment to the Defense authorization bill (S. 1155) > > allowing military personnel and federal workers to keep the frequent > > flier miles they earn while traveling on the government's dime, was > > approved by the Senate Armed Services Committee Friday. Senate > > Governmental Affairs Committee Chairman Joseph Lieberman, D-Conn., > > sponsored the amendment along with Sen. John Warner, R-Va. In August > > Warner introduced S. 1369, a Senate bill that would have extended the > > benefit to federal employees. The Defense authorization amendment would > > allow military personnel, foreign service members, their families and > > others who travel on official government business to keep their > > frequent flier miles. "Soldiers, sailors, pilots, and Marines are on > > call 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, prepared to go into harm's way," > > Lieberman explained. "Letting them take advantage of frequent flier > > programs--which cost the taxpayer absolutely nothing--is a small > > gesture, but one that can mean a lot for morale." The Federal > > Acquisition Streamlining Act of 1994 (Public Law 103-355) prohibits > > federal employees from accepting promotional items they receive while > > traveling at government expense. Those items included frequent flier > > miles, upgrades and access to carrier clubs or facilities. Full story: > > http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0901/091001t1.htm > > > > Those same bureaucrats previously ruled (through the IRS tax code) that > employees would be taxed at their normal tax rates on the putative > market value of any "air miles" their employers allowed them to keep. > > Seem the various equal protection laws would forbid any special tax > benefits for "military and federal" employees. > > However, since we are now an adhocracy, nothing more will be heard of > this argument, least of all in the courts. > > --Tim May -- Paul H. Merrill, MCNE, MCSE+I, CISSP PaulMerrill at ACM.Org From mattd at useoz.com Mon Sep 10 05:26:55 2001 From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 22:26:55 +1000 Subject: running out of tim.. Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010910222240.009f55c0@pop.useoz.com> 'Stokely,tim.search at www.prisonbitchgenerator.com reveals 'cream of meat' mmmmm.tasty! From aimee.farr at pobox.com Mon Sep 10 20:27:23 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 22:27:23 -0500 Subject: Sociocultural Implications of Biometrics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Faustine wrote: > New online PDFs of possible interest from the RAND Corporation: > > Sociocultural Implications of Biometrics > > The Army is considering how it can use biometric systems -- automated > methods of authenticating an individual based on physical or behavioral > characteristics -- to improve security, efficiency, and convenience. > Recognizing that biometrics is not without controversy, however, the Army > asked RAND's Arroyo Center to assist in an assessment of the legal, > sociological and ethical implications. A new publication reports the > findings. http://www.rand.org/publications/MR/MR1237/ Google also Mayfield v. Dalton, 109 F.3d 1423 (9th Cir.1997) which challenged a military DNA repository as violating the Fourth Amendment. Between the district court and the appellate, the military made some changes...shortening the holding period from 75 to 50 yrs, allowing for individualized destruction upon request after military service, delineating permissible uses, etc.-etc. Compare to the Brits, who are experimenting with chipping their soldiers: dog tags to pet chips. Although I'm on the consortium list, etc. My RAND pubs notice did not include the online version. Thanks, Faustine. Saved me some $. I always read your contributions. ~Aimee PS: Although elementary for many in here (but you are quite unusual), Understanding Surveillance Technologies by Julie K. Petersen, available on Amazon, has some "handy stuff" in it for a broad overview of surveillance technologies. (I always appreciate private notes to papers/refs on surveillance topics.) 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Have the opportunity to prosper in falling as well as rising markets! Learn how to be a better investor. Act now while supplies last! Sorry, students and brokers do not qualify for this offer. Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results. This is an options selling program which involves the risk of unlimited loss. <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> * To remove yourself from this mailing list, point your browser to: http://inbound.postmastergeneral.com/remove?Wallstreet * Enter your email address (cypherpunks at toad.com) in the field provided and click "Unsubscribe". The mailing list ID is "Wallstreet". OR... * Forward a copy of this message to Wallstreet at lists.postmastergeneral.com with the word remove in the subject line. This message was sent to address cypherpunks at toad.com X-PMG-Recipient: cypherpunks at toad.com <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> pmguid:rd.arj.1itt From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Sep 11 07:29:50 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 07:29:50 -0700 Subject: Fwd: What's going on? World Trade Center, Pentagon, Old Executive Office Bldg Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010911072819.03820190@idiom.com> apparently two planes crashed into the World Trade Center, and the top of one tower is gone. another either crashed the pentagon or bombed it. airports all closed. >Sender: Law & Policy of Computer Communications >From: "Stephen T. Middlebrook" >Subject: What's going on? World Trade Center, Pentagon, > Old Executive Office Bldg >To: CYBERIA-L at LISTSERV.AOL.COM > >I assume most folks are watching coverage of the plane crash into the World >Trade Center in New York. Here in our offices, however, we're watching >out our >windows at thick black smoke billowing from the Pentagon building across the >river. > >And word is that there was a bombing at the Old Executive Office building > >stm > > >********************************************************************** >For Listserv Instructions, see http://www.lawlists.net/cyberia >Off-Topic threads: http://www.lawlists.net/mailman/listinfo/cyberia-ot >Need more help? Send mail to: Cyberia-L-Request at listserv.aol.com >********************************************************************** From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Sep 11 07:37:40 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 07:37:40 -0700 Subject: What's going on? World Trade Center, Pentagon, Old Executive Office Bldg In-Reply-To: <200109111422.KAA04659@oobleck.mit.edu> References: <018201c13acb$3db92340$040a0a0a@domain> <018201c13acb$3db92340$040a0a0a@domain> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010911073333.03188d50@idiom.com> At 10:22 AM 09/11/2001 -0400, Seth Finkelstein wrote: > "Warren E. Agin" > > I've been trying to get on a newsite, but abc.com, abcnews.com, > > nbc.com, msnbc.com, cbs.com, foxnews.com and boston.com are all having > > problems. Yahoo and MSN are up. > > I can attest that boston.com is functioning in Boston. Can't >say if you could reach it from another part of the country. > > > I wonder if the problem is just server overload, or something else. > > There seems to be some major links out of action. I can't >traceroute to cnn.com, for example. I *speculate* it's collateral >damage from the explosions in Manhattan. That is, I sure wouldn't hang >around to keep computer working in this situation. Highly unlikely to be physical damage; it's just slashdotted because everybody with an internet connection tried it first. The San Francisco Chronicle is still working because it's early morning on the West Coast; they're sfgate.com, picture on the front page, and the AP story is at http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2001/09/11/national0920EDT0530.DTL From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Tue Sep 11 00:41:44 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 07:41:44 +0000 Subject: Debt of honor Message-ID: <200109110741.f8B7fiJ46838@mailserver1.hushmail.com> It seems quite a few have been making payments lately...eh? From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Sep 11 07:56:18 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 07:56:18 -0700 Subject: What's going on? World Trade Center, Pentagon, Old Executive Office Bldg In-Reply-To: <20010911104856.A24849@ils.unc.edu> References: <5.0.2.1.1.20010911073333.03188d50@idiom.com> <018201c13acb$3db92340$040a0a0a@domain> <018201c13acb$3db92340$040a0a0a@domain> <200109111422.KAA04659@oobleck.mit.edu> <5.0.2.1.1.20010911073333.03188d50@idiom.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010911075505.0318ca80@idiom.com> At 10:48 AM 09/11/2001 -0400, Greg Newby wrote: >Everything's just slashdotted. Forget the Internet, this >is television's game, or try the radio (shortwave or >domestic). even Akamai is slashdotted.... Here's the SF article printer-friendly version; sorry about the formatting. Planes crash into World Trade Center, creating horrifying scene; no word on casualties Tuesday, September 11, 2001 )2001 Associated Press URL: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2001/09/11/national0920EDT0530.DTL (09-11) 06:39 PDT (AP) -- AP National Writer NEW YORK (AP) -- Two planes crashed into the upper floors of both World Trade Center towers minutes apart Tuesday in what the President Bush said was an apparent terrorist attack, blasting fiery, gaping holes in the 110-story buildings. There was no immediate word on deaths or injuries. The president ordered a full-scale investigation to "hunt down the folks who committed this act" The twin disasters which happened shortly before 9 a.m. and then right around 9 a.m. In Washington, officials said the FBI was investigating reports of a plane hijacking before the crashes. Heavy black smoke billowed into the sky above the gaping holes in the side of the 110-story twin towers, one of New York City's most famous landmarks, and debris rained down upon the street, one of the city's busiest work areas. When the second plane hit, a fireball of flame and smoke erupted, leaving a huge hole in the glass and steel tower. "Today we've had a national tragedy," Bush said. He called it "an apparent terrorist attack." Ira Furber, former NTSB spokesman, discounted likelihood of accident. "I don't think this is an accident," he said on CNN. "You've got incredibly good visibility. No pilot is going to be relying on navigational equipment." "It's just not possible in the daytime," he added. "A second occurrence is just beyond belief." The towers were struck by terrorist bombers in February 1993, killing six people and injuring more than 1,000 others. All New York City-area airports were shut down, and several subway lines were immediately shut down. Trading on Wall Street was suspended. "The plane was coming in low and ... it looked like it hit at a slight angle," said Sean Murtagh, a CNN vice president, the network reported. "I was watching TV and heard a sonic boom," Jeanne Yurman told CNN. "The side of the World Trade Center exploded. Debris is falling like leaflets. I hear ambulances. The northern tower seems to be on fire." Thousands of pieces of what appeared to be office paper came drifting over Brooklyn, about three miles from the tower. A senior government official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the agency is pursuing reports that one or both of the planes were hijacked and that the crashes may have been the result of a suicide mission. The source stressed that the reports are preliminary and officials do not know the cause of the crashes. "It certainly doesn't look like an accident," said a second government official, also speaking on condition of anonymity. In 1945, an Army Air Corps B-25, a twin-engine bomber, crashed into the 79th floor of the Empire State Building in dense fog. In Sarasota, Fla., Bush was reading to children in a classroom at 9:05 a.m. when his chief of staff, Andrew Card, whispered into his ear. The president briefly turned somber before he resumed reading. He addressed the tragedy about a half-hour later. )2001 Associated Press From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Sep 11 07:58:01 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 07:58:01 -0700 Subject: Fwd: FC: Terrorists attack World Trade Center and Pentagon Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010911075728.0318f1c0@idiom.com> >Delivered-To: bill.stewart at pobox.com >X-Sender: declan at mail.well.com >X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 >Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 10:28:52 -0400 >To: politech at politechbot.com >From: Declan McCullagh >Subject: FC: Terrorists attack World Trade Center and Pentagon >Sender: owner-politech at politechbot.com >Reply-To: declan at well.com >X-URL: Politech is at http://www.politechbot.com/ >X-Author: Declan McCullagh is at http://www.mccullagh.org/ >X-News-Site: Cluebot is at http://www.cluebot.com/ > >[Police and other sirens are wailing in Washington, and high-profile >federal buildings have been evacuated. One of the Trade Center towers >apparently has collapsed, with a death toll I don't want to imagine. I >wonder if these attacks are over, and what kind of legislation we're >likely to see in response... --Declan] > >http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010911/ts/crash_tradecenter_dc_2.html >NEW YORK (Reuters) - A plane struck the World Trade Center in lower >Manhattan Tuesday morning, an eyewitness reported. > >http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/business/evac.htm > > The AP and Reuters are reported the following D.C. area evacuations on > the threat of terrorist attacks: the White House, the U.S. Capitol > Building, the Pentagon, the State Department and the Old Executive > Office Building. > > According to GSA press office, they are awaiting a decision on whether > to close government agencies in Washington. > > The New York Stock Exchange and Nasdaq Stock Market said trading in > stocks would not open until at least 11:30 EDT. > > Also the Federal Aviation Administration has shut down all aircraft > takeoffs nationwide and has directed all planes in the air to continue > to their final destinations or land at the nearest airport. > > The Sears Tower in Chicago is also being evacuated. > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- >POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list >You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. >Declan McCullagh's photographs are at http://www.mccullagh.org/ >To subscribe to Politech: http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html >This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------- From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Sep 11 08:23:34 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 08:23:34 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Re: What's going on? World Trade Center, Pentagon,Old Executive Office Bldg Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010911082207.031853e0@idiom.com> INteresting exchange from cyberia-l. Mark was online earlier, and sent an article saying Try NYC traffic cams: http://nyctmc.org/xbrooklyn.asp >Sender: Law & Policy of Computer Communications >From: "Ronald D. Coleman" >Organization: Gibney, Anthony & Flaherty, LLP >Subject: Re: What's going on? World Trade Center, > Pentagon,Old Executive Office Bldg >To: CYBERIA-L at LISTSERV.AOL.COM > >"Sterilized." No in or out of the City. > >Mark Milone wrote: > > > If anyone has info, please let me know what is the status of NYC > evacuation. I'm trying to get back to Brooklyn. I can be reached at > 212-935-6020 (the phone service is off and on) or milone at mindspring.com. > > > > - Mark From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Sep 11 08:25:24 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 08:25:24 -0700 Subject: Fwd: JYA's New York Report Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010911082446.03825230@idiom.com> >Delivered-To: bill.stewart at pobox.com >X-Sender: jya at pop.pipeline.com >X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 >Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 11:14:39 -0700 >Reply-To: Law & Policy of Computer Communications >Sender: Law & Policy of Computer Communications >From: John Young >Subject: New York Report >To: CYBERIA-L at LISTSERV.AOL.COM > >E-mail in Upper West Side of Manhattan is okay, local and national >TV too. Radio is out due to loss of transmitters on the collapsed WTC >towers. Our wire and wireless phones are on and off. Subways are >partly out. We cannot see the WTC area from the roof of our building, >so TV and Internet are all we got. I was about to leave for a meeting >in the WTC area when the news broke. > >Trying to locate a daughter who has a dot.com job near the WTC. >Many friends nearby too. > >A word on the structure of the WTC towers: > >The WTC towers had a distinctive structural system which utilized >the exterior wall framing for lateral bracing -- a so-called lattice >framework. This allowed minimization of internal lateral bracing >and opened up the floor plans. You can see the effect of that when >the buildings collapsed, with the lattice framework crumbling and >the interior imploding. The lattice works so long as it remains >intact as a system: if a part of it goes, then the whole system >goes. > >The planes punched holes in the lattice, one tower punched >on two sides, maybe the other too. Portions of the lattice of >the second tower briefly remained standing after the collapse, >then fell. > >The system was considered daring at the time of construction, for >it distributed loads more efficiently than legacy column-and-beam- >supported systems. Probably the legacy systems would not have >totally collapsed due to damage at upper floors, although floors >above the damage would have come down if columns were >weakened. > > >********************************************************************** >For Listserv Instructions, see http://www.lawlists.net/cyberia >Off-Topic threads: http://www.lawlists.net/mailman/listinfo/cyberia-ot >Need more help? Send mail to: Cyberia-L-Request at listserv.aol.com >********************************************************************** From lneil at ez0.ezlink.com Tue Sep 11 07:41:57 2001 From: lneil at ez0.ezlink.com (L. Neil Smith) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 08:41:57 -0600 Subject: MORNING OF HORROR Message-ID: MORNING OF HORROR By L. Neil Smith Special to _The Libertarian Enterpise_ First of all, expect never to learn the truth about what happened at the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, and elsewhere this morning of September 11, 2001, any more than we did with regard to the murders of Jack and Bobby Kennedy, Martin Luther King, at Ruby Ridge, Waco, or Oklahoma City. Ambiguity and uncertainty serve far too many political interests. Another certainty is that, although I'm told 50,000 people worked in the World Trade Center, more innocent individuals will die as a result of what the Old Media are lovingly referring to as a "lockdown" of Manhattan and other places, than any acts of terrorism that may have occurred. The military has just said they'll shoot down any plane they see flying. Only one civilian plane is in the air this morning, Air Force One; that's as grim a warning of things to come as I can think of. "Collateral" deaths won't just happen as a consequence, say, of somebody with a heart attack being unable to get to a hospital, but whenever and wherever some dumb kid in an army uniform gets startled by a car backfiring and starts spraying everybody and his pet poodle with automatic rifle fire. Or to whomever the martial lawyers decide it's safe to liquidate using this foul mess as a cover. Or, vastly more ominously, to people in the not-so-distant future who decide they must resist the police state that will inevitably result from these events. It's extremely difficult to think coherently about long term effects, let alone to get it all down in writing, when you learn that, not only were hijacked commercial aircraft used to commit these unspeakably evil acts, but that 90 passengers died helplessly in the first plane, and others yet unnumbered may have died in subsequent attacks. _Somebody_ has to think about it, though, or this situation will be used to turn the Bill of Rights off forever. Depending on the planning behind it, or who did the planning, it may already be too late. All airports have been shut down today, and I shudder to think about what flying will be like from now on. The Clintons, Schumers, and Waxmans will try to shut down the Internet, calling it a breeding ground for terrorism. The Bushes and Cheneys will "reluctantly" go along. Rush Limbaugh will cheer them on. What should those who value their freedom do? Every chance you have, from this moment on, whether it's on talk radio, or on the letters to the editor page, on the Internet while it's still possible, or in communication with everyone you know -- it's time for even the most apolitical to write to senators and congressmen -- emphasize two points: First, inform them that closing down the First or Second or any other Amendment is not an appropriate response to what's happened, and that any politician or bureaucrat in office who attempts to capitalize on today's horrors is committing the same sort of blatantly criminal act I've always insisted must be punished under Bill of Rights enforcement. Second, these things happen to nations with imperial ambitions. There has never been a major act of terrorism I know of that hasn't resulted from an act of government that violated somebody's rights. The way to keep this sort of thing from happening again is to stop those violations. Hideously enough, my new novel _The American Zone_, scheduled to be published next November by Tor Books, begins with an act very similar to this one, carried out to force the creation of a strong central government in the governmentless "North American Confederacy" that figures in so many of my books. As anybody who knows my work can safely predict, the evil scheme doesn't work and the villains are defeated. Life isn't as predictably pleasant as fiction. Happy endings are few and far between. But it's important to act swiftly if we're to preserve anything resembling the freedom that made this civilization great. Pass the word. ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************** From sandfort at mindspring.com Tue Sep 11 08:52:07 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 08:52:07 -0700 Subject: BLOOD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Folks, I'll be off to donate blood in the next couple of hours. I suggest you do the same. With tens of thousands of casualties in New York, I'm sure it will be needed. Note to those in the Bay Area: I think it would be a good idea to avoid BART--at least under the Bay--for the time being. It's a way too attractive target, in my opinion. S a n d y From ming at planetmongo.net Tue Sep 11 09:04:43 2001 From: ming at planetmongo.net (ming) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 09:04:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BLOOD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yeah, also the bridges are on alert. I'm staying home today as long as I can. Good luck everyone.. ming [This is a sig file] On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > Folks, > > I'll be off to donate blood in the next couple of hours. I suggest you do > the same. With tens of thousands of casualties in New York, I'm sure it > will be needed. > > Note to those in the Bay Area: I think it would be a good idea to avoid > BART--at least under the Bay--for the time being. It's a way too attractive > target, in my opinion. > > > S a n d y > From schear at lvcm.com Tue Sep 11 10:00:09 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 10:00:09 -0700 Subject: cryptorepression In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20010912035442.009e9810@pop.useoz.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010911095915.035f05b0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 04:01 AM 9/12/2001 +1000, mattd wrote: >Brace,brace,brace...rogue nations are dangerous while merely >wounded.Operation soft drills needed to deliver coup de gras.Not easy I >know,and even more difficult now,but the last empires past its use by >date.War of the flea now must become war of the killer bee. Been taking night courses at the John Young school for exposition? steve From pablo-escobar at hushmail.com Tue Sep 11 10:28:29 2001 From: pablo-escobar at hushmail.com (pablo-escobar at hushmail.com) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 10:28:29 -0700 Subject: Sospechosos probables? Message-ID: <200109111728.f8BHSTR81338@mailserver1.hushmail.com> Gary Condit and his personnel could be implied like attempt to clear it of the front pagination. From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu Tue Sep 11 07:48:56 2001 From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 10:48:56 -0400 Subject: What's going on? World Trade Center, Pentagon, Old Executive Office Bldg In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20010911073333.03188d50@idiom.com>; from bill.stewart@pobox.com on Tue, Sep 11, 2001 at 07:37:40AM -0700 References: <018201c13acb$3db92340$040a0a0a@domain> <018201c13acb$3db92340$040a0a0a@domain> <200109111422.KAA04659@oobleck.mit.edu> <5.0.2.1.1.20010911073333.03188d50@idiom.com> Message-ID: <20010911104856.A24849@ils.unc.edu> Everything's just slashdotted. Forget the Internet, this is television's game, or try the radio (shortwave or domestic). I had some luck with http://cbc.ca (Canadian Broadcasting Corp., on TV at Newsworld International), but http://www.dwelle.de (German) isn't responding either. Any other suggestions for good international sites? Yahoo dailynews has not been updated - though the search engine is running. Their news story about the planes hasn't been updated for over 2 hours. -- Greg On Tue, Sep 11, 2001 at 07:37:40AM -0700, Bill Stewart wrote: > > At 10:22 AM 09/11/2001 -0400, Seth Finkelstein wrote: > > "Warren E. Agin" > > > I've been trying to get on a newsite, but abc.com, abcnews.com, > > > nbc.com, msnbc.com, cbs.com, foxnews.com and boston.com are all having > > > problems. Yahoo and MSN are up. > > > > I can attest that boston.com is functioning in Boston. Can't > >say if you could reach it from another part of the country. > > > > > I wonder if the problem is just server overload, or something else. > > > > There seems to be some major links out of action. I can't > >traceroute to cnn.com, for example. I *speculate* it's collateral > >damage from the explosions in Manhattan. That is, I sure wouldn't hang > >around to keep computer working in this situation. > > Highly unlikely to be physical damage; it's just slashdotted > because everybody with an internet connection tried it first. > The San Francisco Chronicle is still working because it's early morning > on the West Coast; they're sfgate.com, picture on the front page, > and the AP story is at > http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2001/09/11/national0920EDT0530.DTL From schear at lvcm.com Tue Sep 11 11:21:40 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 11:21:40 -0700 Subject: WTC In-Reply-To: <200109111745.MAA21303@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010911112108.035438f8@pop3.lvcm.com> At 01:40 PM 9/11/2001 -0400, CDR Anonymizer wrote: > > Silverstein Properties signed a $3.2 billion 99 year lease with the > > NYC Port Authority on July 24th, 2001. > > > > http://www.forbes.com/newswire/2001/07/24/rtr308696.html Wonder who the insurer was? steve From elyn at consect.com Tue Sep 11 08:21:44 2001 From: elyn at consect.com (Elyn Wollensky) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 11:21:44 -0400 Subject: What's going on? World Trade Center, Pentagon, Old Executive Office Bldg References: <018201c13acb$3db92340$040a0a0a@domain> <018201c13acb$3db92340$040a0a0a@domain> <5.0.2.1.1.20010911073333.03188d50@idiom.com> <3B9E25DE.C2E6567B@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: <011001c13ad5$7dfc0d00$6b8d1d18@nyc.rr.com> OK, here's what's going on ... in NYC: two separate planes collided into each of the WTC towers @8:30 this morning. Each tower eventually collapsed. Seems very few people made it out from the top 40 floors of each building. It turned out that the planes where hijacked ... in DC: a plane crashed into or next to the Pentagon. a bomb of some sort went of next to the Old Executive part of the White House, and it now seems another bomb went off at the State Department. They have locked down NYC (no in-no out), evacuated the UN and subways are closed. In DC they are evacuating all Federal buildings (in NY, most where in the WTC), the pentagon, etc. and they are trying to get people to leave the Mall. At present they have also stopped all airline traffic in the US, however there are anywhere from 5-to-8 planes that are unaccounted for and there is a standby concerning whether they are looking for targets or simply mid-flight and need a place to land. There was just a crash in Pennsylvania and no one knows whether it was related to the attacks or not. That's about all I know ... hope this helps, elyn > Bill Stewart wrote: > > > > At 10:22 AM 09/11/2001 -0400, Seth Finkelstein wrote: > > > "Warren E. Agin" > > > > I've been trying to get on a newsite, but abc.com, abcnews.com, > > > > nbc.com, msnbc.com, cbs.com, foxnews.com and boston.com are all having > > > > problems. Yahoo and MSN are up. > > > > > > I can attest that boston.com is functioning in Boston. Can't > > >say if you could reach it from another part of the country. > > > > > > > I wonder if the problem is just server overload, or something else. > > > > > > There seems to be some major links out of action. I can't > > >traceroute to cnn.com, for example. I *speculate* it's collateral > > >damage from the explosions in Manhattan. That is, I sure wouldn't hang > > >around to keep computer working in this situation. > > > > Highly unlikely to be physical damage; it's just slashdotted > > because everybody with an internet connection tried it first. > > The San Francisco Chronicle is still working because it's early morning > > on the West Coast; they're sfgate.com, picture on the front page, > > and the AP story is at > > http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2001/09/11/nationa l0920EDT0530.DTL > > Yep, just a flash crowd. The BBC web site is all but unobtainable. > Transatlantic data traffic is slow, but flowing. > > If you are in Manhattan YMMV. > > Ken > From gbroiles at well.com Tue Sep 11 11:35:18 2001 From: gbroiles at well.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 11:35:18 -0700 Subject: FC: Anonymous remailer operators start to take remailers offline In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010911112716.03e70e40@pop3.norton.antivirus> While it's understandable that people want to avoid being swept up in hysterical backlashes against people involved in this morning's terrorist activity, it's worth remembering - especially for people interested in aiding law enforcement - that a lot of investigations begin and move forward with anonymous tips which are later corroborated by witnesses willing to testify. Given the clear indifference for human life shown by the terrorists, the ordinary witness-protection steps taken by law enforcement may not be comforting enough to allow aiders and abettors of this morning's actions to report their knowledge with confidence - so it may be more important than ever that the remailers continue to operate. Given that, does anyone have any tips for compiling the current Mixmaster release under FreeBSD or OpenBSD? The make fails for me on both platforms - it looks like a failure related to the recent integration of OpenSSL into the standard BSD distributions, which I've been unable to remedy thus far. At 01:17 PM 9/11/2001 -0400, R. A. Hettinga wrote: >Status: U >Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 12:42:22 -0400 >To: politech at politechbot.com >From: Declan McCullagh >Subject: FC: Anonymous remailer operators start to take remailers offline >Sender: owner-politech at politechbot.com >Reply-To: declan at well.com > >[From a remailer operators mailing list. The discussion arose in response >to the attacks. --Declan] > >******** > >From: Len Sassaman >Subject: status of randseed >Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 08:40:37 -0700 (PDT) > >Randseed's been taken offline, as a precautionary measure. All mail >currently destined for randseed will be bounced. > >We'll be back online at sometime in the future > >******** > >From: "J.Francois" >Subject: Opinions on Operations due to bombings. >Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 08:46:37 -0700 >Organization: MagusNet, Inc. Design * Develop * Integrate > >I no longer run an anon remailer but I still operate a public proxy. > >By now everyone is aware of the bombings here in the USA. > >So, do we suspend anon communications channels during the crises or do we stay >operational. > >Opinions? >-- >Jean Francois - JLF Sends... >Once at a social gathering, Gladstone said to Disraeli, >"I predict, Sir, that you will die either by hanging or of some >vile disease". Disraeli replied, "That all depends, Sir, upon >whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." > >******** > >From: Len Sassaman >Subject: Re: Opinions on Operations due to bombings. >To: >Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 09:23:44 -0700 (PDT) > >I'm not concerned that the remailer network is, was, or will be used by >the actual terrorists. What concerns me is the assholes who will >inevitably send bogus threats, tips, and other noise to various news >groups, federal offices, and officials. > >I don't want to get caught in the middle of this. I'm sorry. I'm currently >unemployed and don't have the resources to defend myself. At this point >in time, a free-speech argument will not gain much sympathy with the feds, >judges, and general public. > >And investigators don't need more noise to sort through. They'll have >enough as it is. > >I'd like to see remailers continue operating. But this needs to settle. >I may put mine into middle, mix only mode if I feel up to it.. > >******** -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at well.com "We have found and closed the thing you watch us with." -- New Delhi street kids From jim_windle at eudoramail.com Tue Sep 11 08:47:38 2001 From: jim_windle at eudoramail.com (Jim Windle) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 11:47:38 -0400 Subject: From Manhattan Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001 15:55:26 Ken Brown wrote: >> >Yep, just a flash crowd. The BBC web site is all but unobtainable. >Transatlantic data traffic is slow, but flowing. > >If you are in Manhattan YMMV. > >Ken I am in Manhattan. I can see a massive smoke plume from the roof of my building but the Met Life (formerly PanAm) building blocks my view of the World Trade Center itself. The smoke is also visible at street level down the avenues. Even uptown there is considerable emergency vehicle traffic headed in a generally downtown direction. Phone service is working but the system must be deluged as it is sometimes difficult to get a dial tone. The TV transmitters for NYC are on top of one of the towers so those are gone but I assume the cable feeds are still OK. The bridges and tunnels to NJ have been closed, the subway is also closed until further notice. The airports are closed to outgoing flights. Apparently police perimeters are being set up around the UN and other remaining potential targets. The stock exchanges and futures exchanges are all closed. The primary election scheduled for today has been postponed. The World Trade Center normally has 40,00-50,000 people wo! rking in it so casualties are likely to be very high, particularly as the upper floors of both buildings have now collapsed. The mood here is obviously tense but people are still going about their business. I have noticed a few people looking up when they hear a plane overhead. There is considerable anger as well as universal willingness to help out if possible. While Manhattan is physically cut off pretty completely there is no rush that I can see to get out (stranded commuters are resigned to spending the night most likely in hotels or with friends), nor any expectation of further strikes, though obviously the police are taking numerous precautions. All things considered it seem surprising normal, except for the visible smoke and extra high siren level, though tense, here, but of course I am uptown someone closer to the scene will no doubt have a different experience. Jim Windle > Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com From drtboi at bitslinger.net Tue Sep 11 11:52:16 2001 From: drtboi at bitslinger.net (drtboi at bitslinger.net) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 11:52:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cyber Scouts Motto: Be Prepared! Message-ID: On 11-Sep-2001 An Metet wrote: > I suppose the repression shit will really > hit the fan now, so, are all the good little > cyber scouts prepared to do their duty? Maybe it's a bit too early to assume complete military takeover of the US. I remember, during the election debacle, rumors on the cpunk list that Clinton was going to refuse to step down and let Bush take over, and that instead, martial law would be declared, and the US would be taken over by the military. I mean, you gotta be paranoid to be on this list, I assume, but you don't have to cry "military takeover of the whole world!" during every crisis. > knows -- the US gov maybe engineered the > whole thing. Remember the Pentagon plan > to shoot down an airliner. Go watch Scary as Bush's puppeteers may be, I don't think they did this. But I know shit about same. > "Wag the Dog" also be sure to watch > the director's commentary on the dvd > version of that. Check out the novel "American Hero", by Larry Beinhart. From jim_windle at eudoramail.com Tue Sep 11 09:00:36 2001 From: jim_windle at eudoramail.com (Jim Windle) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 12:00:36 -0400 Subject: BLOOD Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001 08:52:07 Sandy Sandfort wrote: > >Folks, > >I'll be off to donate blood in the next couple of hours. I suggest you do >the same. With tens of thousands of casualties in New York, I'm sure it >will be needed. > As a Manhattan resident, personally unhurt though I don't know about all of my firends and acquaintances. Thanks for donating blood and thanks for spreading the idea. Jim Windle >Note to those in the Bay Area: I think it would be a good idea to avoid >BART--at least under the Bay--for the time being. It's a way too attractive >target, in my opinion. > > > S a n d y > > Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com From freematt at coil.com Tue Sep 11 09:08:35 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 12:08:35 -0400 Subject: L. Neil Smith On Morning of Horror 9-11-01 Message-ID: From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Tue Sep 11 04:32:25 2001 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 12:32:25 +0100 Subject: UKUSA Courts Monitoring References: <200109102005.QAA27927@smtp6.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <3B9DF648.99901ED1@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> John Young wrote: > For example, this DNS entry: > > Host, master (HM-ORG-ARIN) hostmaster at USCOURTS.GOV > Nortel Plc F.A.O. Andrew MacphersonLondon > HarlowEssex > GB > > (202) 273-2640 > Fax- (202) 273-2651 > > Record last updated on 13-Aug-1998. > Database last updated on 8-Sep-2001 23:09:15 EDT. > [...] The name "Andrew Macpherson" struck me as vaguely familiar. I did some searches to update myself. He (or "an unknown entity using that name") has been an occasional contributor to Bugtraq & other mailing lists on SSH, email protocols, and security for BSD, NIS, NFS & other stuff. There is a suggestion for an encrypted Unix passwd changing scheme at http://http1.brunel.ac.uk:8080/depts/cc/Papers/netpassword-paper/paper.html Also he's been on the committee of UK Unix User Group, along with some people I actually know - so we are getting into true names territory here. Well, maybe he is a Secret Master of Repression of Telecoms. Of course it could be that, like nearly every other DNS record in the world, the name is that of the senior nerd on site & for whatever reason Nortel are (or once were) running their tech stuff from the UK. According to http://www.cs.duke.edu/csl/news/duke-cs-general/msg00000.html Bell Northern & Northern Telecom merged nt.com, bnr.ca & bnr.co.uk into one DNS domain in 1997 so it might well be that the whole thing has sometimes been managed centrally outwith the USA. It isn't at all surprising that Nortel register .gov names of course, even the Men In Black need to actually be connected to the Net to use it & I suspect that Nortel does quite a lot of that. But, even if this isn't evidence of it, I still think you USAns are paying our spies to spy on you so that your ones don't have to. Why else are there so many British military & comms people based in Canada? And at least some in Bermuda and the Bahamas. Not to mention Baltimore. There's a whole lot of listening going in in the world. But then you guys also had (till recently) big bases in Bermuda which is *our* colony, thank you very much. Gotta keep those sassy Bermudans in their place. Of course there were no British or US naval officers at all who liked to be there for a nice break & maybe some yacht racing at the taxpayer's expense, no, who would think such a thing... Ken Brown AM doesn't like anonymous mail though: >> Re: Use of reverse lookups with SMTP >> Andrew Macpherson (Andrew.Macpherson.1248566 at nortel.co.uk) >> Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:54:34 +0000 >> tim at uunet.pipex.com said: [...] >> | Yes, definitely. There are plenty of reasons why the DNS may be >> | unable to map a number to a name. None of them are good reasons for >> | refusing mail. >> >> What might these be, other than >> >> a A desire to be anonymous [good reason for rejection] >> b Incompetence in setting up ones Internet presence >> [ Those one does business with are not demonstrated incompetents ] >> c ISP incompetence [ Refuse this so that bad service goes out of business ] >> >> One should refuse all connexions which fail the >> number -> name -> set of numbers including original >> test, for all services, including SMTP.verse lookups with SMTP" [...] From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Sep 11 12:53:41 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 12:53:41 -0700 Subject: News website reference - may not be slashdotted yet. Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010911125242.031ab560@idiom.com> >Sender: Law & Policy of Computer Communications >From: Robert Helmer >Subject: Re: Helping the New Yorkers >To: CYBERIA-L at LISTSERV.AOL.COM > >Here's a news site with a great variety of stories >about the attack, best I've been able to find: > >http://www.ananova.com/news/index.html?keywords=Trade+Centre+crash&nav_src=more_on > >Cnn was down--Annanove is lesser known. Speedy access. > >Bob Helmer >Daily Rotation >http://www.dailyrotation.com >Shell Extension City >http://www.shellcity.net >St. Louis, Missouri From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Sep 11 13:06:37 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 13:06:37 -0700 Subject: What's going on? World Trade Center, Pentagon, Old Executive Office Bldg In-Reply-To: <00aa01c13ad5$3bee42c0$3354393f@josephas> References: <5.0.2.1.1.20010911073333.03188d50@idiom.com> <018201c13acb$3db92340$040a0a0a@domain> <018201c13acb$3db92340$040a0a0a@domain> <200109111422.KAA04659@oobleck.mit.edu> <5.0.2.1.1.20010911073333.03188d50@idiom.com> <5.0.2.1.1.20010911075505.0318ca80@idiom.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010911125754.031ae0e0@idiom.com> At 10:18 AM 09/11/2001 -0500, Joseph Ashwood wrote: >To avoid slashdotting my source so I can still get the information I'm = >just going to copy and paste the page: I apologize for posting html but = >the formatting and pictures don't show up in text. The mailbot deleted the pictures. >1-800 phone calls apparently not working... That's not a nationwide thing or an all-phone-companies thing - most NYC-based numbers would be hard to reach, and maybe some long distance carrier's database is in NYC, but it's unlikely they'd have only a single database. >Pentagon has confirmed that they major loss of life because of explosion >F16 fighters forced down the plane that was heading to pentagon .. they = >forced that plane down near Camp David I'd heard there was a crash in Camp David - this is first I'd heard of this. >Supposedly the president was supposed to be heading back from Florida. = >I'm sure that's going to be detoured somewhere else. He was making speeches from an AFB in Louisiana. The logical places to go would be Camp David (guess not...) or Andrews AFB or the Fort Ritchie, MD emergency site. The less logical place to go is back to the White House - it's a bit riskier, but would make good PR. From owner-cypherpunks at toad.com Tue Sep 11 13:30:38 2001 From: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com (owner-cypherpunks at toad.com) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 13:30:38 Subject: Undervalued Growth Stock Message-ID: <200109110532.WAA22339@toad.com> OTCBB Stock Alert's Last Two Picks: EMRG from $ .60 to $2.50 in 10 days for a GAIN OF OVER 400%!!! DICE from $ .49 to $1.62 in 7 days for a GAIN OF OVER 300%!!! HERE IS OUR NEXT EXPLOSIVE STOCK PICK: Diversified Product Inspections, Inc. (OTCBB: DPRI) BUY AT $1.25 SELL TARGET $4.60 = DIAMOND PLAY !!!! MAJOR CONTRACT ANNOUNCEMENTS AND HUGE NEWSLETTER COVERAGE THIS WEEK FOR DPRI !!! Revenues for DPRI, a 10-year old, fully-reporting company, have skyrocketed 600% higher this year to over $8 Million on substantial US Government and Insurance Industry contracts. DPRI's client list of over 50 major insurance companies includes Allstate, Fireman's Fund, Travelers, Liberty Mutual, Prudential, Hartford, and Nationwide. We are expecting significant news this week regarding increasing revenue and contract expansion from DPRI's Fortune 500 customer base. The stock has already bounced sharply from its 52-week low and will continue moving up immediately. We think the stock could easily climb above $4 in less than a month. WE ARE PROJECTING RECORD VOLUME AND PRICE APPRECIATION AS DPRI MAY VERY WELL BE ONE OF THE MOST UNDERVALUED STOCKS ON THE OTCBB!!! DISCLAIMER: OTCBB Stock Alert is a financial advisory network focusing on high-growth companies with the intent to offer its subscribers a great investment reward. It has the policy to acquire existing small newsletters, is not affiliated with any broker or dealer and is not a registered investment advisor. The information contained in this publication is for informational purposes only and is neither an offer to sell nor a solicitation of any offer to buy securities. Investment in smallcap companies is considered extremely speculative and may result in the loss of some or all of any investment made in these companies. Investors should use the information contained in this publication as a starting point for conducting additional research on the featured company in order to allow the investor to form their own opinion regarding the featured company. OTCBB Stock Alert has received five thousand free trading shares from a third party as compensation for the dissemination of this stock profile. Since we have a position in DPRI there is an inherent conflict of interest in our statements and opinions and therefore such statements and opinions cannot be considered independent. We will benefit from any increase in price for DPRI. We may liquidate our position at any time; before, during or after the dissemination of this stock alert. From owner-cypherpunks at ssz.com Tue Sep 11 13:30:40 2001 From: owner-cypherpunks at ssz.com (owner-cypherpunks at ssz.com) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 13:30:40 Subject: Undervalued Growth Stock Message-ID: <200109121330.IAA32185@einstein.ssz.com> OTCBB Stock Alert's Last Two Picks: EMRG from $ .60 to $2.50 in 10 days for a GAIN OF OVER 400%!!! DICE from $ .49 to $1.62 in 7 days for a GAIN OF OVER 300%!!! HERE IS OUR NEXT EXPLOSIVE STOCK PICK: Diversified Product Inspections, Inc. (OTCBB: DPRI) BUY AT $1.25 SELL TARGET $4.60 = DIAMOND PLAY !!!! MAJOR CONTRACT ANNOUNCEMENTS AND HUGE NEWSLETTER COVERAGE THIS WEEK FOR DPRI !!! Revenues for DPRI, a 10-year old, fully-reporting company, have skyrocketed 600% higher this year to over $8 Million on substantial US Government and Insurance Industry contracts. DPRI's client list of over 50 major insurance companies includes Allstate, Fireman's Fund, Travelers, Liberty Mutual, Prudential, Hartford, and Nationwide. We are expecting significant news this week regarding increasing revenue and contract expansion from DPRI's Fortune 500 customer base. The stock has already bounced sharply from its 52-week low and will continue moving up immediately. We think the stock could easily climb above $4 in less than a month. WE ARE PROJECTING RECORD VOLUME AND PRICE APPRECIATION AS DPRI MAY VERY WELL BE ONE OF THE MOST UNDERVALUED STOCKS ON THE OTCBB!!! DISCLAIMER: OTCBB Stock Alert is a financial advisory network focusing on high-growth companies with the intent to offer its subscribers a great investment reward. It has the policy to acquire existing small newsletters, is not affiliated with any broker or dealer and is not a registered investment advisor. The information contained in this publication is for informational purposes only and is neither an offer to sell nor a solicitation of any offer to buy securities. Investment in smallcap companies is considered extremely speculative and may result in the loss of some or all of any investment made in these companies. Investors should use the information contained in this publication as a starting point for conducting additional research on the featured company in order to allow the investor to form their own opinion regarding the featured company. OTCBB Stock Alert has received five thousand free trading shares from a third party as compensation for the dissemination of this stock profile. Since we have a position in DPRI there is an inherent conflict of interest in our statements and opinions and therefore such statements and opinions cannot be considered independent. We will benefit from any increase in price for DPRI. We may liquidate our position at any time; before, during or after the dissemination of this stock alert. From owner-cypherpunks at ssz.com Tue Sep 11 13:30:41 2001 From: owner-cypherpunks at ssz.com (owner-cypherpunks at ssz.com) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 13:30:41 Subject: Undervalued Growth Stock Message-ID: <200109110537.AAA16370@einstein.ssz.com> OTCBB Stock Alert's Last Two Picks: EMRG from $ .60 to $2.50 in 10 days for a GAIN OF OVER 400%!!! DICE from $ .49 to $1.62 in 7 days for a GAIN OF OVER 300%!!! HERE IS OUR NEXT EXPLOSIVE STOCK PICK: Diversified Product Inspections, Inc. (OTCBB: DPRI) BUY AT $1.25 SELL TARGET $4.60 = DIAMOND PLAY !!!! MAJOR CONTRACT ANNOUNCEMENTS AND HUGE NEWSLETTER COVERAGE THIS WEEK FOR DPRI !!! Revenues for DPRI, a 10-year old, fully-reporting company, have skyrocketed 600% higher this year to over $8 Million on substantial US Government and Insurance Industry contracts. DPRI's client list of over 50 major insurance companies includes Allstate, Fireman's Fund, Travelers, Liberty Mutual, Prudential, Hartford, and Nationwide. We are expecting significant news this week regarding increasing revenue and contract expansion from DPRI's Fortune 500 customer base. The stock has already bounced sharply from its 52-week low and will continue moving up immediately. We think the stock could easily climb above $4 in less than a month. WE ARE PROJECTING RECORD VOLUME AND PRICE APPRECIATION AS DPRI MAY VERY WELL BE ONE OF THE MOST UNDERVALUED STOCKS ON THE OTCBB!!! DISCLAIMER: OTCBB Stock Alert is a financial advisory network focusing on high-growth companies with the intent to offer its subscribers a great investment reward. It has the policy to acquire existing small newsletters, is not affiliated with any broker or dealer and is not a registered investment advisor. The information contained in this publication is for informational purposes only and is neither an offer to sell nor a solicitation of any offer to buy securities. Investment in smallcap companies is considered extremely speculative and may result in the loss of some or all of any investment made in these companies. Investors should use the information contained in this publication as a starting point for conducting additional research on the featured company in order to allow the investor to form their own opinion regarding the featured company. OTCBB Stock Alert has received five thousand free trading shares from a third party as compensation for the dissemination of this stock profile. Since we have a position in DPRI there is an inherent conflict of interest in our statements and opinions and therefore such statements and opinions cannot be considered independent. We will benefit from any increase in price for DPRI. We may liquidate our position at any time; before, during or after the dissemination of this stock alert. From owner-cypherpunks at toad.com Tue Sep 11 13:30:41 2001 From: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com (owner-cypherpunks at toad.com) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 13:30:41 Subject: Undervalued Growth Stock Message-ID: <200109110532.WAA22332@toad.com> OTCBB Stock Alert's Last Two Picks: EMRG from $ .60 to $2.50 in 10 days for a GAIN OF OVER 400%!!! DICE from $ .49 to $1.62 in 7 days for a GAIN OF OVER 300%!!! HERE IS OUR NEXT EXPLOSIVE STOCK PICK: Diversified Product Inspections, Inc. (OTCBB: DPRI) BUY AT $1.25 SELL TARGET $4.60 = DIAMOND PLAY !!!! MAJOR CONTRACT ANNOUNCEMENTS AND HUGE NEWSLETTER COVERAGE THIS WEEK FOR DPRI !!! Revenues for DPRI, a 10-year old, fully-reporting company, have skyrocketed 600% higher this year to over $8 Million on substantial US Government and Insurance Industry contracts. DPRI's client list of over 50 major insurance companies includes Allstate, Fireman's Fund, Travelers, Liberty Mutual, Prudential, Hartford, and Nationwide. We are expecting significant news this week regarding increasing revenue and contract expansion from DPRI's Fortune 500 customer base. The stock has already bounced sharply from its 52-week low and will continue moving up immediately. We think the stock could easily climb above $4 in less than a month. WE ARE PROJECTING RECORD VOLUME AND PRICE APPRECIATION AS DPRI MAY VERY WELL BE ONE OF THE MOST UNDERVALUED STOCKS ON THE OTCBB!!! DISCLAIMER: OTCBB Stock Alert is a financial advisory network focusing on high-growth companies with the intent to offer its subscribers a great investment reward. It has the policy to acquire existing small newsletters, is not affiliated with any broker or dealer and is not a registered investment advisor. The information contained in this publication is for informational purposes only and is neither an offer to sell nor a solicitation of any offer to buy securities. Investment in smallcap companies is considered extremely speculative and may result in the loss of some or all of any investment made in these companies. Investors should use the information contained in this publication as a starting point for conducting additional research on the featured company in order to allow the investor to form their own opinion regarding the featured company. OTCBB Stock Alert has received five thousand free trading shares from a third party as compensation for the dissemination of this stock profile. Since we have a position in DPRI there is an inherent conflict of interest in our statements and opinions and therefore such statements and opinions cannot be considered independent. We will benefit from any increase in price for DPRI. We may liquidate our position at any time; before, during or after the dissemination of this stock alert. From anmetet at freedom.gmsociety.org Tue Sep 11 10:52:14 2001 From: anmetet at freedom.gmsociety.org (An Metet) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 13:52:14 -0400 Subject: Cyber Scouts Motto: Be Prepared! Message-ID: <25c620df53ed332e20db09749479a828@freedom.gmsociety.org> I suppose the repression shit will really hit the fan now, so, are all the good little cyber scouts prepared to do their duty? Recall previous threads on non-internet dependant messaging systems. Work on the "parasitic wireless network", revive Fidonet in a new, digital format. And in the old string and tin can format if need be. Get that remailer code intertwinned with mojo, create a virus version, modify code red to spread remailers everywhere. I hope no one here is silly enough to think the BOR will survive this. Who knows -- the US gov maybe engineered the whole thing. Remember the Pentagon plan to shoot down an airliner. Go watch "Wag the Dog" also be sure to watch the director's commentary on the dvd version of that. From aaa at 163.com Mon Sep 10 23:11:30 2001 From: aaa at 163.com (aaa at 163.com) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 14:11:30 +0800 Subject: =?GB2312?B?xKfK9crWu/q/qKOs0rvVxb+otuC49rrF?= Message-ID: <200210120523.g9C5NWQ14089@waste.minder.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2648 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Sep 11 12:12:42 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 14:12:42 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Cryptography News: FORWARDED (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 08:59:06 +0100 From: Jason To: cryptography at wasabisystems.com Subject: Cryptography News: FORWARDED +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | LinuxSecurity.com Weekly Newsletter | | September 10th, 2001 Volume 2, Number 36n | | | | Editorial Team: Dave Wreski dave at linuxsecurity.com | | Benjamin Thomas ben at linuxsecurity.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ +------------------------+ | Cryptography News: | +------------------------+ * PGP opens up complete encryption source code September 7th, 2001 One of the first encryption products is made available to all. PGP Security -- a division of Network Associates that has been criticised in the past for being too proprietary -- has made available the electronic distribution of its complete source code for the PGPsdk, its cryptographic toolkit. PGP, which was one of the world's first encryption products and a de facto standard for encryption, is the foundation of all PGP Desktop, Wireless and Server products. The release of the source code will provide academic researchers and cryptographers the ability to review every detail of PGPsdk's cryptographic features. The move comes a short time after the US government recently relaxed export regulations on cryptographic source code, Santa Clara, California-based PGP Security said. All of article. http://www.linuxsecurity.com/articles/cryptography_article-3637.html * Quantum Crypto to the Rescue September 7th, 2001 This week has been big for cryptography. It's seen both technical and theoretical advances in next-generation quantum crypto systems and technology. It's seen a prototype enter its testing phase that could send secret crypto keys through open air to a satellite or across town. http://www.linuxsecurity.com/articles/cryptography_article-3636.html --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From aimee.farr at pobox.com Tue Sep 11 12:22:21 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 14:22:21 -0500 Subject: Terrorists attack World Trade Center and Pentagon In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010911102425.02103670@mail.well.com> Message-ID: > [ I wonder if these attacks are over, and what kind of legislation > we're likely > to see in response... --Declan] Perspective: "How ironic, that this is all happening under the shadow of the Statue of Liberty. Some of us may not have been born to see Pearl Harbor in 1941, but I can assure you that none of us will ever forget the attack of the WTC in New York City, September 11, 2001, a date that may become of more historical significance than we can currently imagine. Semper Fi," ...a New Jersey volunteer bringing "a pick, shovel...and a hard stomach." ------ Perhaps borders and transportation will widely field biometric and biochemical surveillance countermeasures. The surreptitious collection of suspected terrorist biometrics for border security, along with surreptitious polygraphing might have provided additional security, especially in coordination with intelligence agents in the field. (If part of an organized terrorist attack, our intelligence agencies *should have* their mugs.) That could have been an aerosol cloud full of blister, blood, choking agents.... Still, while we are all flying the flag, I just hope we don't forget what it stands for in the policy aftermath. To say we had forewarning is an understatement, and name-calling, retaliation, and yadda-yadda does nothing to address our intelligence and security failures. GAO reports critical of airport security: http://www.federaltimes.com/issues/crackdown.html http://www.janes.com/transport/news/jar/jar000616_1_n.shtml (It seems like there was something very recent, but I can't find it. I can't pull up GAO.gov.) I hope this will be seen as a mandate to engage in the aggressive acquisition of foreign intelligence sources, and a coordinated counterintelligence strategy. Human Intelligence might make a much-needed comeback. All we needed here was one placed HUMAN asset. One guy. ~Aimee From dis-list at rebelbase.com Tue Sep 11 14:46:12 2001 From: dis-list at rebelbase.com (Normen Nomesco) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 14:46:12 -0700 Subject: Fwd: [blah] [brians@wired.com: [heroictimes@hotmail.com: ]] Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010911144529.00ad86d0@mail.rebelbase.com> >Concerning the recently published Crime of Terrorism article: > > >I liked your recent commentary. And I hope in the posturing and mania that >is currently swirling, in our need, as a country, to exact retribution. We >pay attention, as a nation to these words. And perhaps question the >American policies, that have made us targets of terrorism. The American >policies and actions, both economic and military, that have pushed many >nations, no, many people to the brink. > >We must remember as a nation, that the horror and shock and loss we are >experiencing today, is just a shadow of the daily horror and shock so >called third world countries have experienced for the last 40years at the >hands of American interests. At the hands of the Word Bank, the IMF, the >UN, the CIA and the American Military. > >We must choose our next steps wisely, and if a "third world" faction is >found to be guilty of this attack, be cognizant of the fact that from a >certain viewpoint America's actions of the last 40years, our policy of >dictating, demanding, and if necessary debilitating and destroying smaller >countries, is nothing short of terrorism. And thus viewed, today's >attrocity while horrible, while unexcusable, while self destructive, while >dumb, is in some way understandable. Is human. > >It's what Malcolm X called... Chickens coming home to roost. You can not >strip others of value, others of hope, others of compassion, and not be >devalued yourself. Objectionalized yourself. Victimized yourself. > >So perhaps retaliation bombings by America, American retatliation on >foreign soil of enemies unclear, more innocent men, women and children >dead, while comforting to our ego, soothing to our vengeance, cooling to >our wrath... is not in our best interests. Breathes more terrorism, more >hatred, more martyrs. > >We have lost a lot of people today. And they, this mysterious, suspected >enemy, they have lost. The manner of their deaths tell us this. They gave >up their lives to smite their enemy, they died going forward, such people >are made out of horror. Too much horror, too much loss, and too little choices. > >So for us to respond, haphazardly, brutally, indiscriminately, again while >effective for our egos, is damning to our future. Because by creating more >horror, we create more of the people we strive to stop. We can not win a >war with people without hope. With people with nothing to lose. We can >not. We can survive it, but we can not win it. Because a man without >hope... is the deadliest type of man. > >He is a man without fear. > >Somehow America must start making less of these people and not more. And >maybe it must start here, with this tragedy, this horror, this loss, and >in the way we react to it. Maybe America must learn to meet the rest of >the world with courage rather than brutality, and reason rather than >rhetoric. We have to give our enemies hope, hope that they can be more >than the slaves or the slaughtered. Hope that there is resolution without >blood, and conflict without crisis. > >Hope. > >America has spent forty years of vaporizing hope, and the sovereign rights >of other countries. Forty years of killing hope. And we are producing >people both within and without our nation... school shootings, rogue cops, >political prisoners, serial killers, bombings, ... who are tired of living >without hope. We need, now more than ever, that hope. We need a >government... of the people, not a government over the people. America >keeps turning the screws on her own citizens, and throughout the world and >people cannot take it. America like a bully keeps pushing people, and >people are beginning to snap. > >A lot of people are dead. And someone will bear the guilt. But I think to >keep something like this from happening again... America must recognize >and carry her portion of that guilt. Her portion of the dead. > >These are the last days of Rome, and strength will not save America... >only mercy will. We must be, what we are not. What we have never been. We >must be... a beacon of liberty to other nations. We must care. About >people, foreign and domestic. We must care. It's the only way this two >hundred year old nation is going to survive. > >Gary Abraham From JonathanW at gbgcorp.com Tue Sep 11 15:18:32 2001 From: JonathanW at gbgcorp.com (Jonathan Wienke) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 15:18:32 -0700 Subject: Bombs In Kabul Message-ID: <91A43FE1FA9BD411A8D200D0B785C15E0677CF@MISSERVER> CNN is reporting some kind of air attack happening in Kabul, Afghanistan. No one seems to know if this is a retaliation, or just part of the civil war going on there. An ammunition dump is on fire near the city. FWIW -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 545 bytes Desc: not available URL: From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Tue Sep 11 07:55:26 2001 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 15:55:26 +0100 Subject: What's going on? World Trade Center, Pentagon, Old Executive Office Bldg References: <018201c13acb$3db92340$040a0a0a@domain> <018201c13acb$3db92340$040a0a0a@domain> <5.0.2.1.1.20010911073333.03188d50@idiom.com> Message-ID: <3B9E25DE.C2E6567B@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Bill Stewart wrote: > > At 10:22 AM 09/11/2001 -0400, Seth Finkelstein wrote: > > "Warren E. Agin" > > > I've been trying to get on a newsite, but abc.com, abcnews.com, > > > nbc.com, msnbc.com, cbs.com, foxnews.com and boston.com are all having > > > problems. Yahoo and MSN are up. > > > > I can attest that boston.com is functioning in Boston. Can't > >say if you could reach it from another part of the country. > > > > > I wonder if the problem is just server overload, or something else. > > > > There seems to be some major links out of action. I can't > >traceroute to cnn.com, for example. I *speculate* it's collateral > >damage from the explosions in Manhattan. That is, I sure wouldn't hang > >around to keep computer working in this situation. > > Highly unlikely to be physical damage; it's just slashdotted > because everybody with an internet connection tried it first. > The San Francisco Chronicle is still working because it's early morning > on the West Coast; they're sfgate.com, picture on the front page, > and the AP story is at > http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2001/09/11/national0920EDT0530.DTL Yep, just a flash crowd. The BBC web site is all but unobtainable. Transatlantic data traffic is slow, but flowing. If you are in Manhattan YMMV. Ken From jim_windle at eudoramail.com Tue Sep 11 13:13:57 2001 From: jim_windle at eudoramail.com (Jim Windle) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 16:13:57 -0400 Subject: Manhattan Mid-Afternoon Message-ID: I have been out trying to give blood. At this point all hospitals and blood donation centers have been inundated with volunteers and are only taking Types O+ and O- which are the universal donor types. Anyone in the area with those types should try to donate today. They are asking the rest of us to come back tomorrow or later in the week as they expect the need for blood to be protracted. All the subways were closed but are now running again as are the city buses, the bridges and tunnels are still closed to non-pedestrian traffic I hear. Most businesses have closed for the day and sent people home who are all walking on the street. Banks, drugstores and grocery stores are still open, and busy. Passing the &th regiment armory on Park Ave, the national guard are reporting apparently to help in cordoning off and cleaning up the WTC area. I also stopped at the grocery store on my way home, it was crowded, a bit more than the last blizzard, but there are still items on the shelves. There is a small amount of non-official traffic, but a number of streets are closed off. I did however see a couple of lage cranes headed downtown. Some street with power sub-station or telephone switching facilityes are closed off and barracaded with NYC garbage trucks or Dept. of Transportation concrete mixer trucks. There are a handful of F-15's circling over Manhattan, the r! est of the normal overhead air traffic is nonexistent at the moment. Police and police auxilary are out directing traffic at major intersections, manning barricades and walking about answering questions. I have not been south of mid-town so I can't speak of lower Manhattan where the attack was but here there has been no "panic". The sidewalks are very crowded, people are somber and tense but don't seem to anticipate anything else here in the city and ae quite willing to help if possible. The lines at both the Manhattan Blood center and at Lennox Hill Hospital were around the block with people waiting to donate blood. The plume of smoke is still rising and plainly visible from any rooftop and at ground level looking down the avenues. So far the infrastructure of the City seems to be handling things. The broadcast tower at the WTC is gone so some broadcast TV and radio are out, but other local stations are still on the air and the cable feed appears unaffected. The subways are not running but were apparently shut down for fear of a terrorist act. The subway line does not run through the WTC anyway. The PATH train to NJ does however. It is apparently out but how badly or if at all the tunnels were damaged I cannot say. All the financial markets are closed, it is not clear when the stock exchange will reopen, I have heard a rumor it may close for the week. It is not close enough I think to have been damaged but it seems that all downtown is shut off and will be for some time until the the fire is under control and the area has been cleaned up, that could be a while. Phone and intern! et service is still up though the network is burdened, earlier today I had some difficulty getting a dial tone but not now. Obviously the City has been the target of a major terrorist attack, but except for a few people fleeing immediately after the attack I have heard of no one leaving. The official response seems to have been very efficient in terms of deploying to protect other potential target, particularly the city's infrastructure. I cannot speak of the response at the WTC not having been there but it seems they have called in everyone and everything that can possibly be of use in the situation though with an attack of this magnitude that still may not be enough. Jim Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com From qboggie24 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 11 13:34:09 2001 From: qboggie24 at yahoo.com (Cesar Quisumbing) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 16:34:09 -0400 Subject: Hi There Message-ID: <307834-22001921120349740@yahoo.com> , My name is Cesar and I am one of your upline sponsors in DHS :-) I would like to welcome you to one of the most explosive ways to earn money on the Internet. If you are serious in earning a solid, stable, fast income, then read the information we send so you can learn more about DHS. You now have hundreds coming into your downline and I want you to realize what this can mean to you. Finding the right Internet Opportunity can be frustrating, costly, and prone to error. The wrong choices lead to wasted time, effort, and money. We invite you to make an educated decision about DHS and that is why we offer these informational emails. 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Warm Regards, Cesar Quisumbing DHS Silver Manager If at anytime you chose to no longer receive updates about the DHS Club from myself please click here Mailto:?subject=Please_Remove__ or hit Reply and then type "please remove" in the Subject and your wishes will be honored �������������������������������������������:������g�ʋ�~���&���ܢf�v����a�������_�j(��& From osama_ben-laden at hushmail.com Tue Sep 11 10:08:37 2001 From: osama_ben-laden at hushmail.com (osama_ben-laden at hushmail.com) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 17:08:37 +0000 Subject: Ben-Laden Demolition Message-ID: <200109111708.f8BH8b928240@mailserver1.hushmail.com> Ben-Laden Demolition delivers 4 generations of demolition excellence. You always receive prompt and efficient service at the best possible price. Fully licensed, bonded and insured, Ben-Laden Demolition specializes in exterior, selective and fire damage wrecking. We can handle any project: Commercial, Governmental, Industrial, and Bridges. Ben-Laden Demolition is ready to be your most dependable and versatile player on your destruction team. Call today for a free consultation, estimate or project solution. Osama CEO, Ben-Laden Demolition "When it absolutely, positively, has to be demolished today!" From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Tue Sep 11 08:33:19 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 17:33:19 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: World Trade Center (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 11:03:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Clay Shirky To: Steve Sapovits Cc: Kelley , Steve Sapovits , Mr. FoRK , fork at xent.com Subject: Re: World Trade Center > I'm amazed that an orchestrated attack of this nature could > be pulled of and could *continue* to unfold though. There > was a severe intelligence hole here. Watch for evidence that encrypted email was involved. Then watch what happens during a state of martial info-law. -clay http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork From shamrock at cypherpunks.to Tue Sep 11 17:44:24 2001 From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 17:44:24 -0700 Subject: Cypherpunks and terrorism In-Reply-To: <2a7be51edb2950af5f3d3c9b65723e4c@dizum.com> Message-ID: Nomen wrote: --------------- What are the roles of we who provide technology that aids terrorists as well as honorable people who seek the shield of privacy? Do we bear a share of the responsibility for the deaths and other consequences of terrorist attacks such as we have seen today? --------------- No. The chicken are merely coming home to roost. No surprise there. Yawn, --Lucky From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Sep 11 16:05:13 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 18:05:13 -0500 Subject: Slashdot | Our New Pearl Harbor Message-ID: <3B9E98A9.F7982AEC@ssz.com> http://slashdot.org/articles/01/09/11/1842258.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Tue Sep 11 15:18:51 2001 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 18:18:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: BLOOD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > Folks, > > I'll be off to donate blood in the next couple of hours. I suggest you do > the same. With tens of thousands of casualties in New York, I'm sure it > will be needed. I just signed up to donate blood at St. Vincent's, which is near where I'm living. They have a waiting list to donate blood roughly 3 days long (unless you're 0- or extra rare, neither of which I am). They expect to use everyone on the list. So yes, please donate. There's *nothing* where the WTC used to be except smoke. At least not that I could see from a midtown office. -David From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Tue Sep 11 09:27:24 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 18:27:24 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: [Remops] Re: Opinions on Operations due to bombings. (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 09:23:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Len Sassaman Reply-To: remops at lexx.shinn.net To: jlf at magusnet.com Cc: remailer-operators at anon.lcs.mit.edu Subject: [Remops] Re: Opinions on Operations due to bombings. I'm not concerned that the remailer network is, was, or will be used by the actual terrorists. What concerns me is the assholes who will inevitably send bogus threats, tips, and other noise to various news groups, federal offices, and officials. I don't want to get caught in the middle of this. I'm sorry. I'm currently unemployed and don't have the resources to defend myself. At this point in time, a free-speech argument will not gain much sympathy with the feds, judges, and general public. And investigators don't need more noise to sort through. They'll have enough as it is. I'd like to see remailers continue operating. But this needs to settle. I may put mine into middle, mix only mode if I feel up to it.. On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, J.Francois wrote: > I no longer run an anon remailer but I still operate a public proxy. > > By now everyone is aware of the bombings here in the USA. > > So, do we suspend anon communications channels during the crises or do we stay > operational. > > Opinions? > > > -- > Jean Francois - JLF Sends... > Once at a social gathering, Gladstone said to Disraeli, > "I predict, Sir, that you will die either by hanging or of some > vile disease". Disraeli replied, "That all depends, Sir, upon > whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." > -- Len Sassaman Security Architect | "I must play their game, of Technology Consultant | not seeing I see the game." | http://sion.quickie.net | --R .D. Laing _______________________________________________ Remops mailing list Remops at lexx.shinn.net http://lexx.shinn.net/mailman/listinfo/remops From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Tue Sep 11 15:27:37 2001 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 18:27:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Manhattan Mid-Afternoon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm living in west village, which is mid-to-lower manhattan. No panic yet, streets are orderly and very sparsely populated, almost deserted. Everyone seems to have either gone home or found someplace to wait it out. Roads lower than about west 11th seem to be closed; St. Vincent's hospital seems to be taking injured (although I don't see too many coming in right now. I don't know if that's a bad sign). My roommate tells me that the ferry line reaches 4 across from 53rd to 23rd...and back again. I've heard speculation about curfew, martial law, etc. etc. Nothing like that has been confirmed AFAIK. Then again I've been avoiding the radio and TV for the last few hours. As to whether cypherpunk technologies assisted in this tragedy -- please explain how anonymous remailers affect airport security? I am personally more worried about the lack of cryptography and system security. I didn't learn about what happened until walking into work this morning. On the way up people were crying and the headlines in the elevator talked about FAA grounding all planes. I thought that the ATC computers had finally given up. What happens if in the next attack the terrorists take control of the ATC system? -David From aimee.farr at pobox.com Tue Sep 11 16:40:12 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 18:40:12 -0500 Subject: FC: Anonymous remailer operators start to take remailers offline In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010911112716.03e70e40@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: > While it's understandable that people want to avoid being swept up in > hysterical backlashes against people involved in this morning's terrorist > activity, it's worth remembering - especially for people interested in > aiding law enforcement - that a lot of investigations begin and move > forward with anonymous tips which are later corroborated by witnesses > willing to testify. Given the clear indifference for human life shown by > the terrorists, the ordinary witness-protection steps taken by law > enforcement may not be comforting enough to allow aiders and abettors of > this morning's actions to report their knowledge with confidence - so it > may be more important than ever that the remailers continue to operate. > I agree, and I'm a "wuss ninnie," according to many. They are broadcasting the hotlines/website: http://www.ifcc.fbi.gov (slashdotted, on my end). They want everything. ...Could the remops collaborate in some fashion so as to offer collection assistance? ...Could you set up a working group to assist with these situations in the future? ...Could you build something to facilitate anonymous reporting? I'm brown-nosing Steele again, but terrorism seems to support a Whitehat Blacknet (what I called an OSINT Intellagora). Isn't this a perfect example? I think a working group on something like this would put crypto in a positive light. ~Aimee From osama_ben-laden at hushmail.com Tue Sep 11 18:40:47 2001 From: osama_ben-laden at hushmail.com (osama_ben-laden at hushmail.com) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 18:40:47 -0700 Subject: Ben-Laden Demolition Message-ID: <200109120140.f8C1el638371@mailserver1c.hushmail.com> Ben-Laden Demolition delivers 4 generations of demolition excellence. You always receive prompt and efficient service at the best possible price. Fully licensed, bonded and insured, Ben-Laden Demolition specializes in exterior, selective and fire damage wrecking. We can handle any project: Commercial, Governmental, Industrial, and Bridges. Ben-Laden Demolition is ready to be your most dependable and versatile player on your destruction team. Call today for a free consultation, estimate or project solution. Osama CEO, Ben-Laden Demolition "When it absolutely, positively, has to be demolished today!" From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Tue Sep 11 09:41:49 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 18:41:49 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: [Remops] cracker, redneck down for awhile (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: 11 Sep 2001 12:43:19 -0400 From: Andy Dustman Reply-To: remops at lexx.shinn.net To: Remailer Operators Subject: [Remops] cracker, redneck down for awhile SMTP is off at gacracker.org until things settle down. anon.efga.org will stay up. -- Andy Dustman PGP: 0x930B8AB6 @ .net http://dustman.net/andy I'll give spammers one bite of the apple, but they'll have to guess which bite has the razor blade in it. From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Tue Sep 11 18:45:03 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 18:45:03 -0700 Subject: Ben-Laden Demolition Message-ID: <200109120145.f8C1j3f39135@mailserver1c.hushmail.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 1052 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Tue Sep 11 09:52:15 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 18:52:15 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: frequencies for monitoring (fwd) Message-ID: -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 09:53:37 -0700 From: Strata Rose Chalup To: irregulars at tb.tf, fork at xent.com Subject: frequencies for monitoring LIMARC, long island: 146.85, (-, pl 136.5 to xmit) RACES http://www.arrl.org/FandES/field/pscm/sec1-ch4.html Nationwide dedicated: Table 1 Dedicated RACES Operating Frequencies 1800-1825 kHz 1975-2000 kHz 3.50-3.55 MHz 3.93-3.98 MHz 3.984-4.000 MHz 7.079-7.125 MHz 7.245-7.255 MHz 10.10-10.15 MHz 14.047-14.053 MHz 14.22-14.23 MHz 14.331-14.350 MHz 21.047-21.053 MHz 21.228-21.267 MHz 28.55-28.75 MHz 29.237-29.273 MHz 29.45-29.65 MHz 50.35-50.75 MHz 52-54 MHz 144.50-145.71 MHz 146-148 MHz 222-225 MHz 420-450 MHz 1240-1300 MHz 2390-2450 MHz -- ======================================================================== Strata Rose Chalup [KF6NBZ] strata "@" virtual.net VirtualNet Consulting http://www.virtual.net/ ** Project Management & Architecture for ISP/ASP Systems Integration ** ========================================================================= http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork From dave at technopagan.org Tue Sep 11 11:58:29 2001 From: dave at technopagan.org (David E. Smith) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 18:58:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: FC: Anonymous remailer operators start to take remailers offline In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010911112716.03e70e40@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Greg Broiles wrote: > Given that, does anyone have any tips for compiling the current Mixmaster > release under FreeBSD or OpenBSD? The make fails for me on both platforms - > it looks like a failure related to the recent integration of OpenSSL into > the standard BSD distributions, which I've been unable to remedy thus far. Get the Mix-libs package, which has an older version of OpenSSL that includes the missing "openssl/idea.h" header. (At least that was the problem I had compiling Mixmaster on Linux with the current OpenSSL.) ...dave From dave at technopagan.org Tue Sep 11 11:58:29 2001 From: dave at technopagan.org (David E. Smith) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 18:58:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: FC: Anonymous remailer operators start to take remailers offline In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010911112716.03e70e40@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Greg Broiles wrote: > Given that, does anyone have any tips for compiling the current Mixmaster > release under FreeBSD or OpenBSD? The make fails for me on both platforms - > it looks like a failure related to the recent integration of OpenSSL into > the standard BSD distributions, which I've been unable to remedy thus far. Get the Mix-libs package, which has an older version of OpenSSL that includes the missing "openssl/idea.h" header. (At least that was the problem I had compiling Mixmaster on Linux with the current OpenSSL.) ...dave From qboggie24 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 11 16:00:23 2001 From: qboggie24 at yahoo.com (Cesar Quisumbing) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 19:00:23 -0400 Subject: Hi There !First Name! Message-ID: <1237234-22001921123023100@yahoo.com> Hi, I am very sorry. It was an error in my part sending you my last email. This will not happen again. I apologize, Cesar �������������������������������������������:������g�ʋ�~���&���ܢf�v����a�������_�j(��& From shamrock at cypherpunks.to Tue Sep 11 19:34:14 2001 From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 19:34:14 -0700 Subject: Manhattan Mid-Afternoon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sunder wrote: -------------- What pisses me off is that these fuckers managed to hiijack four planes by using nothing but knives. How the fuck could a bunch of guys do that? Nobody fought back? Nobody charged at them? [...] If they had any sense, they'd have everyone on the plane carry guns. The second anyone tried anything, everyone would be able to stop them in seconds. -------------- Which of course represents the crux of the issue. The passengers aboard the aircraft, the workers in the towers, and the emergency personnel on the ground are dead for two reasons: the US unreasonably meddling in other People's affairs until they crack, and the extremist gun control measures in place in the US today, preventing law-abiding citizens from carrying the firearm of their choice aboard a commercial aircraft. Who could deny that a few citizens armed with their personal handguns could have stopped two or three of guys armed with mere box cutters? The nasty truth is that the tragic events of the day were to a large degree caused by the victim disarmament policies of Diane Feinstein, Sarah Brady, Chuck Schumer, and the many, many local, state, and federal proponents of gun control. I hope they are happy. Not that I have any doubt that they will be delighted, since today's tragedy will undoubtedly give them additional excuses to turn more of us into helpless victims, ready to fall prey to crazies with box cutters and politicians with a pathological desire to feel "needed". The public will applaud. ... Or will it this time? --Lucky From dis-list at rebelbase.com Tue Sep 11 19:36:21 2001 From: dis-list at rebelbase.com (Normen Nomesco) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 19:36:21 -0700 Subject: Manhattan Mid-Afternoon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010911193032.00b1d378@mail.rebelbase.com> Oh and Im sure having guns on board planes would work out great especially considering the increase of people having huge fucking fits and having to be held down on planes, yeah, lets arm people on planes. Have you ever fucking even been on a plan? I wouldn't trust most of my fellow monkeys with a sharp edge on the free peanuts. I am sickened that you would make this correlation in an attempt to further the banner of gun proliferation. Did you ever stop to think that UM... If you could bring a gun on board a plane, the terrorist would have GUNS instead of knifes and cardboard cutters. Yeah, im sure mr fat and lazy American middle class business man with his .38 and his 20 hours on the range will be able to easily take on someone who has spent 30 years fighting as a terrorist and being trained sine he was 10 years old. Fighting against some of the best and well equipped formal militaries in the world, the equivalent of a hyper religious navy seal. I can see it now, 2 blue haired republican nuns with .22 took them on and won and the world was safe. Yeah, I am sure that having guns on the plane would have saved everyone. Even on this list, I rarely say it your a fucking moron Ian >Which of course represents the crux of the issue. The passengers aboard the >aircraft, the workers in the towers, and the emergency personnel on the >ground are dead for two reasons: the US unreasonably meddling in other >People's affairs until they crack, and the extremist gun control measures in >place in the US today, preventing law-abiding citizens from carrying the >firearm of their choice aboard a commercial aircraft. Who could deny that a >few citizens armed with their personal handguns could have stopped two or >three of guys armed with mere box cutters? > >The nasty truth is that the tragic events of the day were to a large degree >caused by the victim disarmament policies of Diane Feinstein, Sarah Brady, >Chuck Schumer, and the many, many local, state, and federal proponents of >gun control. I hope they are happy. Not that I have any doubt that they will >be delighted, since today's tragedy will undoubtedly give them additional >excuses to turn more of us into helpless victims, ready to fall prey to >crazies with box cutters and politicians with a pathological desire to feel >"needed". > >The public will applaud. ... Or will it this time? > >--Lucky From JonathanW at gbgcorp.com Tue Sep 11 20:00:12 2001 From: JonathanW at gbgcorp.com (Jonathan Wienke) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 20:00:12 -0700 Subject: NSA monitors domestic cellular Message-ID: <91A43FE1FA9BD411A8D200D0B785C15E286937@MISSERVER> ABC news anchor Peter Jennings just said that the NSA is going through their recordings of cellular phone calls to see if they can find other cellular calls similar to the one from Ted Olson's wife who was on the plane that crashed into the Pentagon. From sunder at anon7.arachelian.com Tue Sep 11 17:01:42 2001 From: sunder at anon7.arachelian.com (Sunder) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 20:01:42 -0400 (edt) Subject: Manhattan Mid-Afternoon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It was indeed very sureal. Everyone was calm and quiet, no crazy panicked mobs, just orderly, slow, methodical evacuation... Of course the first thing to go was cell phones, just from the sheer volume. I did manage one or two calls to loved ones. There was a smaller queue of people in Radio Shack snapping up every single radio they could find... others were going to grocery stores to get water and food, still others went to bars. It was so fucking surreal, I guess the shock of what happened hasn't sunk in my head yet, but I just can't stop watching CNN. I was listening to the radio all day, hoping for more bits of truth.... I was in the subway at the time it happened, going downtown. The train stopped and got turned around. I had no idea of what had happened. When the conductor announced that we were going back to 14th street, of course we asked questions, we were told "Go home, be happy you're alive!" Being in a shitty economy like this, I was seriously worried about being late due to another subway fuckup... I just barely got a job after three months of being weaned off the .com nipple... I didn't realize the severity of it, until I got above ground and saw the huge plume of smoke and the missing WTC towers... When I got out, people were just walking around aimlessly, then eventually they started heading north. I ran across a Radio Shack and managed to pick up a small shortwave so I could find out what had happened. I walked, and walked and walked, people saw I had a radio and asked what I heared, and I stopped at places turning it up letting them hear the news. Of course some of the glory sucking weasels on 770AM(?) WOR would try to twist things to make themselves look good. Some asshole reporter/dj/etc named "Ed" was dropping that he'd been in Vietnam, and how this is a tragedy, how he knew all along that Bush was going to go to the SAC base in Alabama(???) though he earlier said he thought Bush would go to a mil location in Fl, just being an annoying prick and not getting the news out but rather basking in the tragedy of it all.... What pisses me off is that these fuckers managed to hiijack four planes by using nothing but knives. How the fuck could a bunch of guys do that? Nobody fought back? Nobody charged at them? And the silliest of all things, now, they will heighten security further. Great. Didn't work before, certainly didn't work today. How do they expect metal detectors, silly questions such as "has your luggage been in your sight all day long", and id checks to prevent attacks like this propagated by suicidal religeous fanatical assholes? If they had any sense, they'd have everyone on the plane carry guns. The second anyone tried anything, everyone would be able to stop them in seconds. This attack was possibly the biggest "hack" of the century. The bastards lost very little. Used our own resources against us. Very effective. I'm very outraged at this - a bunch of guys with knives did this! I hope Bush has the balls to nuke'em back to the stone age! This is amazing. The NSA spends, what, $4.5 billion of our tax dollars a year? The CIA $2B? With all that surveilance, with all that heigtened security at airports, with all that sigintel and humintel, a bunch of rag heads with knives managed this! Why do these fuckers have a salary? Go ahead, turn the USA into fucking Cold War era Russia. Put face scanners everywhere. Give everyone travel visas to just pass from one town to another. Put metal detectors up our asses. Go ahead. But don't tell me you could have prevented something like this by doing so. Don't tell me your future lockdowns, curfrews, heigtened security checks, road blocks, id checks, or any of that would have, could have, or ever will prevent this sort of attack. Admit the truth oh dear government. You're useless. Sure, bring in the reserves, bring in the troops. All you can do with them is clean up the debris. Go ahead put destroyers in the east and hudson river. Fly F14's around Manhattan. It's still already too late for those that perished in WTC 1,2, and 7. It's not like the ragheads are likely to come flying migs to NYC and shoot missles or come by boat - if they had such resources at their disposal, they wouldn't have done it this way. Had you allowed us citizens concealed carry guns through airports, had even a small percentage of those on the downed airplanes carried guns, this would have never happened. But no, instead of arming us, you make us weaker, disarm us further and further, so that we can be even more vulnerable. You stupid fucking morons! What a waste! Hope someone got a clue from this, but I doubt it. Hope the Echelon engines pick this up, and someone, somewhere, with a bit of sense will wake up and get a clue. Don't disarm America! Let us arm ourselves. Do it for the children we will be able to protect from these nuts! Yes, you, Jeff Gordon, trolling for bits of info to find someone to drag into the courts for your perverse pleasure, you can make a real difference instead of wasting our money on mock trials of defenseless lunatics who write stupid manifestos. Suggest this to your handlers. Let us arm ourselves. Let us defend our country against these suicidal insane ragheads! And yes, that concludes my $0.02 of bitching and ranting. Sorry. I had to vent. ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :aren't security. A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :masked killer, but |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often. --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, dmolnar wrote: > I'm living in west village, which is mid-to-lower manhattan. No panic yet, > streets are orderly and very sparsely populated, almost deserted. Everyone > seems to have either gone home or found someplace to wait it out. Roads > lower than about west 11th seem to be closed; St. Vincent's hospital seems > to be taking injured (although I don't see too many coming in right now. I > don't know if that's a bad sign). > > My roommate tells me that the ferry line reaches 4 across from 53rd to > 23rd...and back again. > > I've heard speculation about curfew, martial law, etc. etc. Nothing like > that has been confirmed AFAIK. Then again I've been avoiding the radio and > TV for the last few hours. > > As to whether cypherpunk technologies assisted in this tragedy -- please > explain how anonymous remailers affect airport security? I am personally > more worried about the lack of cryptography and system security. > > I didn't learn about what happened until walking into work this morning. > On the way up people were crying and the headlines in the elevator talked > about FAA grounding all planes. I thought that the ATC computers had > finally given up. What happens if in the next attack the terrorists take > control of the ATC system? > > -David > > From sunder at anon7.arachelian.com Tue Sep 11 17:01:42 2001 From: sunder at anon7.arachelian.com (Sunder) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 20:01:42 -0400 (edt) Subject: Manhattan Mid-Afternoon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It was indeed very sureal. Everyone was calm and quiet, no crazy panicked mobs, just orderly, slow, methodical evacuation... Of course the first thing to go was cell phones, just from the sheer volume. I did manage one or two calls to loved ones. There was a smaller queue of people in Radio Shack snapping up every single radio they could find... others were going to grocery stores to get water and food, still others went to bars. It was so fucking surreal, I guess the shock of what happened hasn't sunk in my head yet, but I just can't stop watching CNN. I was listening to the radio all day, hoping for more bits of truth.... I was in the subway at the time it happened, going downtown. The train stopped and got turned around. I had no idea of what had happened. When the conductor announced that we were going back to 14th street, of course we asked questions, we were told "Go home, be happy you're alive!" Being in a shitty economy like this, I was seriously worried about being late due to another subway fuckup... I just barely got a job after three months of being weaned off the .com nipple... I didn't realize the severity of it, until I got above ground and saw the huge plume of smoke and the missing WTC towers... When I got out, people were just walking around aimlessly, then eventually they started heading north. I ran across a Radio Shack and managed to pick up a small shortwave so I could find out what had happened. I walked, and walked and walked, people saw I had a radio and asked what I heared, and I stopped at places turning it up letting them hear the news. Of course some of the glory sucking weasels on 770AM(?) WOR would try to twist things to make themselves look good. Some asshole reporter/dj/etc named "Ed" was dropping that he'd been in Vietnam, and how this is a tragedy, how he knew all along that Bush was going to go to the SAC base in Alabama(???) though he earlier said he thought Bush would go to a mil location in Fl, just being an annoying prick and not getting the news out but rather basking in the tragedy of it all.... What pisses me off is that these fuckers managed to hiijack four planes by using nothing but knives. How the fuck could a bunch of guys do that? Nobody fought back? Nobody charged at them? And the silliest of all things, now, they will heighten security further. Great. Didn't work before, certainly didn't work today. How do they expect metal detectors, silly questions such as "has your luggage been in your sight all day long", and id checks to prevent attacks like this propagated by suicidal religeous fanatical assholes? If they had any sense, they'd have everyone on the plane carry guns. The second anyone tried anything, everyone would be able to stop them in seconds. This attack was possibly the biggest "hack" of the century. The bastards lost very little. Used our own resources against us. Very effective. I'm very outraged at this - a bunch of guys with knives did this! I hope Bush has the balls to nuke'em back to the stone age! This is amazing. The NSA spends, what, $4.5 billion of our tax dollars a year? The CIA $2B? With all that surveilance, with all that heigtened security at airports, with all that sigintel and humintel, a bunch of rag heads with knives managed this! Why do these fuckers have a salary? Go ahead, turn the USA into fucking Cold War era Russia. Put face scanners everywhere. Give everyone travel visas to just pass from one town to another. Put metal detectors up our asses. Go ahead. But don't tell me you could have prevented something like this by doing so. Don't tell me your future lockdowns, curfrews, heigtened security checks, road blocks, id checks, or any of that would have, could have, or ever will prevent this sort of attack. Admit the truth oh dear government. You're useless. Sure, bring in the reserves, bring in the troops. All you can do with them is clean up the debris. Go ahead put destroyers in the east and hudson river. Fly F14's around Manhattan. It's still already too late for those that perished in WTC 1,2, and 7. It's not like the ragheads are likely to come flying migs to NYC and shoot missles or come by boat - if they had such resources at their disposal, they wouldn't have done it this way. Had you allowed us citizens concealed carry guns through airports, had even a small percentage of those on the downed airplanes carried guns, this would have never happened. But no, instead of arming us, you make us weaker, disarm us further and further, so that we can be even more vulnerable. You stupid fucking morons! What a waste! Hope someone got a clue from this, but I doubt it. Hope the Echelon engines pick this up, and someone, somewhere, with a bit of sense will wake up and get a clue. Don't disarm America! Let us arm ourselves. Do it for the children we will be able to protect from these nuts! Yes, you, Jeff Gordon, trolling for bits of info to find someone to drag into the courts for your perverse pleasure, you can make a real difference instead of wasting our money on mock trials of defenseless lunatics who write stupid manifestos. Suggest this to your handlers. Let us arm ourselves. Let us defend our country against these suicidal insane ragheads! And yes, that concludes my $0.02 of bitching and ranting. Sorry. I had to vent. ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :aren't security. A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :masked killer, but |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often. --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, dmolnar wrote: > I'm living in west village, which is mid-to-lower manhattan. No panic yet, > streets are orderly and very sparsely populated, almost deserted. Everyone > seems to have either gone home or found someplace to wait it out. Roads > lower than about west 11th seem to be closed; St. Vincent's hospital seems > to be taking injured (although I don't see too many coming in right now. I > don't know if that's a bad sign). > > My roommate tells me that the ferry line reaches 4 across from 53rd to > 23rd...and back again. > > I've heard speculation about curfew, martial law, etc. etc. Nothing like > that has been confirmed AFAIK. Then again I've been avoiding the radio and > TV for the last few hours. > > As to whether cypherpunk technologies assisted in this tragedy -- please > explain how anonymous remailers affect airport security? I am personally > more worried about the lack of cryptography and system security. > > I didn't learn about what happened until walking into work this morning. > On the way up people were crying and the headlines in the elevator talked > about FAA grounding all planes. I thought that the ATC computers had > finally given up. What happens if in the next attack the terrorists take > control of the ATC system? > > -David From dis-list at rebelbase.com Tue Sep 11 20:03:10 2001 From: dis-list at rebelbase.com (Normen Nomesco) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 20:03:10 -0700 Subject: Manhattan Mid-Afternoon In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010911193032.00b1d378@mail.rebelbase.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010911200202.02e93b08@mail.rebelbase.com> >At gun ranges across the country, where just about everybody is armed, >physical violence is virtually nonexistent. Ever wonder why this is the >case? After thinking about it for a while, even the slower ones amongst us >might be able to figure out the cause. Gun ranges are places were reasonable people go in a normal state of mind a gun range is not the real world the real world does not have a weapons master on site and you are not given ear plugs and the chance to reload From marshall at idio.com Tue Sep 11 20:04:50 2001 From: marshall at idio.com (Marshall Clow) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 20:04:50 -0700 Subject: The 4th Airliner Shot Down? In-Reply-To: <200109120256.WAA07019@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> References: <200109120256.WAA07019@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: >Somebody who claims to be from inside the Pentagon >is saying an F16 shot down the airliner that crashed in >Pennsylvania. Are there news reports of this? There was a Pittsburgh TV station quoting eyewitnesses saying that the plane in Pennsylvania was shot down. (around noon PDT) The FAA has "firmly denied" this. -- -- Marshall Marshall Clow Idio Software Hey! Who messed with my anti-paranoia shot? From shamrock at cypherpunks.to Tue Sep 11 20:08:26 2001 From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 20:08:26 -0700 Subject: Manhattan Mid-Afternoon In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010911193032.00b1d378@mail.rebelbase.com> Message-ID: Normen wrote: ------------ Oh and Im sure having guns on board planes would work out great especially considering the increase of people having huge fucking fits and having to be held down on planes, yeah, lets arm people on planes. ------------ Ignoring for a moment if it is indeed true that more airline passengers are "having fits" (which is doubtful, but irrelevant to the point that I am about to make) and furthermore ignoring why passengers may become increasingly verbal about the unacceptable treatment they receive, I dare say that there would be a rapid decrease in physical outbursts by individuals on airplanes if a good number of the passengers were armed. At gun ranges across the country, where just about everybody is armed, physical violence is virtually nonexistent. Ever wonder why this is the case? After thinking about it for a while, even the slower ones amongst us might be able to figure out the cause. --Lucky From nobody at dizum.com Tue Sep 11 12:00:15 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 21:00:15 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Cypherpunks and terrorism Message-ID: <2a7be51edb2950af5f3d3c9b65723e4c@dizum.com> The terrorist attacks present a real-world situation which has ties to the recent discussion about morality. What are the roles of we who provide technology that aids terrorists as well as honorable people who seek the shield of privacy? Do we bear a share of the responsibility for the deaths and other consequences of terrorist attacks such as we have seen today? Today, remailer operators are shutting down their services. Why? Do they feel shame and guilt at providing a service which could foster destruction? Maybe they should have thought of that before deciding to run a remailer. Or are they merely fearful of being blamed for the attacks or their aftermath? That would be a rather cowardly action, to run a service which can cause harm but to run and hide as soon as the heat is on. (Thankfully, a number of remailer operators continue to courageously offer their services.) It is likely that the effects of the attack will include restrictions on American freedoms. Since the attacks were all carried out by hijacked airliners, chances are that this is where security will be focused. Increased security checks for passengers and employees are a certainty. There may be some additional measures with wider implications. Perhaps we will finally see a national ID card which must be carried at all times and shown on demand to law enforcement personnel. Workers in sensitive industries may have to go through more stringent background checks. At this point there is no indication of any significant Internet component, so it is not too likely that we will see new restrictions there. The net result is a decrease in the freedom that we all cherish. This is a paradox. The technologies we support can lead to violent actions which end up hurting our goals. The question we must all face, then, is whether we are doing more harm than good? How much good do remailers and encryption do, balanced against the harm which they can cause? We should all reflect on this. We must be sure that our actions promote our goals and not set them back. From measl at mfn.org Tue Sep 11 19:17:16 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 21:17:16 -0500 (CDT) Subject: 800 service affected? (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 17:19:45 -0700 From: Roy To: "nanog at merit.edu" Subject: 800 service affected? According to Genuity: "In response to today's tragic events, the Federal Communications Commission has shut down all non-critical 1-800 numbers around the country." I haven't seen any sign of this. From freematt at coil.com Tue Sep 11 18:23:55 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 21:23:55 -0400 Subject: Eyewitness Account Of The WTC Attack: A Hard Rain By Jonathan Wallace Message-ID: From dredd at megacity.org Tue Sep 11 21:36:40 2001 From: dredd at megacity.org (Derek Balling) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 21:36:40 -0700 Subject: NSA monitors domestic cellular In-Reply-To: <3B9EE657.191CB1E9@mailbox.bellatlantic.net> References: <91A43FE1FA9BD411A8D200D0B785C15E286937@MISSERVER> <3B9EE657.191CB1E9@mailbox.bellatlantic.net> Message-ID: Doesn't domestic surveillance of civilian cel-phone calls, without a warrant, fall into a really "Gray"[1] area? I thought NSA wasn't permitted to do that... D [1] For suitably dark and illegal values of gray At 12:36 AM -0400 9/12/01, afbrown at bellatlantic.net wrote: >A great deal more the cellulars are monitored >Specifically all outbound domectic traffic with an international IP >address and all inbound >traffic from abroard is parsed for key words and phases. > >Jonathan Wienke wrote: > >> ABC news anchor Peter Jennings just said that the NSA is going >>through their recordings of cellular phone calls to see if they can >>find other cellular calls similar to the one from Ted Olson's wife >>who was on the plane that crashed into the Pentagon. -- +---------------------+-----------------------------------------+ | dredd at megacity.org | "Conan! What is best in life?" | | Derek J. Balling | "To crush your enemies, see them | | | driven before you, and to hear the | | | lamentation of their women!" | +---------------------+-----------------------------------------+ From shamrock at cypherpunks.to Tue Sep 11 21:50:22 2001 From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 21:50:22 -0700 Subject: FreeBSD mixmaster binary? Message-ID: Having run one of the first Mixmaster remailers ever from a shell account at Netcom years ago, I am ready to set up a new remailer to fill in the gaps created by some remail ops shutting down their remailers in the wake of recent events. Unfortunately, compiling Mixmaster on FreeBSD has become challenging indeed. If you have access to a precompiled static binary of Mixmaster for FreeBSD 4.3 STABLE, please get in touch with me. Thanks, --Lucky From dis-list at rebelbase.com Tue Sep 11 21:59:26 2001 From: dis-list at rebelbase.com (Normen Nomesco) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 21:59:26 -0700 Subject: Manhattan Mid-Afternoon In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010911193032.00b1d378@mail.rebelbase.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010911215648.02ed0580@mail.rebelbase.com> >I'm 100% positive that a single armed terrorist with the best training in >the world would perish within seconds at the hands of 50+ such businessmen >before taking out more than several victims. To understand this, you must >think as they did. Then how come 84 unarmed people could not take aproximatly 4 people armed with razor blades. Agh, I see it, they didn't have guns. Shit 10 kids could probably rush and take an adult armed with a knife, if they rushed him. At least one terrorist was flying, so what thats 84 people against 3 armed with exacto razor blades? Bullshit, they had knives and sharp instruments. No matter how well >trained a killer is, he is no match for odds like 120 to 4 against. How about odds of 20 to 1 with the one having a knife.... --- From ravage at ssz.com Tue Sep 11 20:03:28 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 22:03:28 -0500 (CDT) Subject: The 4th Airliner Shot Down? In-Reply-To: <200109120256.WAA07019@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, John Young wrote: > Somebody who claims to be from inside the Pentagon > is saying an F16 shot down the airliner that crashed in > Pennsylvania. Are there news reports of this? Witnesses said the plane healed over and nose dived into the ground. The military denies any shoot down. > Also that a number of generals were killed in the > Pentagon. Any news of this? It was a section undergoing refurbishing. Doubt there were many/any upity-ups. Least that's what all the news services I've seen are reporting. -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Sep 11 20:10:41 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 22:10:41 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Manhattan Mid-Afternoon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Lucky Green wrote: > At gun ranges across the country, where just about everybody is armed, > physical violence is virtually nonexistent. Ever wonder why this is the > case? After thinking about it for a while, even the slower ones amongst us > might be able to figure out the cause. Yeah, the guys running it with pistols stuffed in their belts will shoot you if you get too nutty. They also tend to outlaw fast draws (some won't even let you wear a pistol in a holster while on the range) and other such shenanigans. So we see that gun ranges don't allow anyone/everyone to run around armed and operating equally. As a result, your point is bogus. -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Sep 11 20:12:51 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 22:12:51 -0500 (CDT) Subject: The 4th Airliner Shot Down? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Marshall Clow wrote: > >Somebody who claims to be from inside the Pentagon > >is saying an F16 shot down the airliner that crashed in > >Pennsylvania. Are there news reports of this? > > There was a Pittsburgh TV station quoting eyewitnesses saying > that the plane in Pennsylvania was shot down. (around noon PDT) > > The FAA has "firmly denied" this. There was also several eye witnesses that said the first tower was hit by a missile... Clearly these people don't have a clue of the size differential. I would be so bold to say that since the New York crash a few years ago that there will almost always be a witness that saw a 'missile'. -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From drevil at sidereal.kz Tue Sep 11 15:34:47 2001 From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil) Date: 11 Sep 2001 22:34:47 -0000 Subject: Cypherpunks and terrorism In-Reply-To: <2a7be51edb2950af5f3d3c9b65723e4c@dizum.com> (message from Nomen Nescio on Tue, 11 Sep 2001 21:00:15 +0200 (CEST)) References: <2a7be51edb2950af5f3d3c9b65723e4c@dizum.com> Message-ID: <20010911223447.9233.qmail@sidereal.kz> > There may be some additional measures with wider implications. Perhaps we > will finally see a national ID card which must be carried at all times > and shown on demand to law enforcement personnel. Workers in sensitive We already have a national ID card. It's called a drivers license. It just happens to be issued by the individual states, not by the federal government, but it is effectively the same thing. This has been a tragic event. I just hope we can have a cool-headed rational reaction to it. That's not easy to do though. From ravage at ssz.com Tue Sep 11 20:44:08 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 22:44:08 -0500 (CDT) Subject: The 4th Airliner Shot Down? In-Reply-To: <200109120336.XAA05189@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, John Young wrote: > Choate wrote: > > >There was also several eye witnesses that said the first tower was hit by > >a missile... > > I watched on TV a guided missile hit the second tower; this was > replayed again and again. An airplane isn't a missile, guided or otherwise. -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From jya at pipeline.com Tue Sep 11 22:49:49 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 22:49:49 -0700 Subject: The 4th Airliner Shot Down? Message-ID: <200109120256.WAA07019@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> Somebody who claims to be from inside the Pentagon is saying an F16 shot down the airliner that crashed in Pennsylvania. Are there news reports of this? Also that a number of generals were killed in the Pentagon. Any news of this? From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Tue Sep 11 20:50:32 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 22:50:32 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [psychohistory] What can a Society Do? (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:17:01 +0800 From: "Chen Yixiong, Eric" Reply-To: psychohistory at yahoogroups.com To: extropians at extropy.org, "Msal-Politics at Yahoogroups.Com" , "Langmakercafe at Yahoogroups.Com" , "Psychohistory at Yahoogroups.Com" Cc: Personal_Discourses at yahoogroups.com, sociologistics at yahoogroups.com Subject: [psychohistory] What can a Society Do? From: Extropians List Originally: RE: TERRORISM: looking for solutions > As some of my posts to the list over the years have shown one of the > big problems I think we will face in the future is "trustability". > How do you trust that you will not be betrayed and/or damaged > by other entities whose inner workings you cannot verify. The concept of trustability has its roots in Game Theory. >From what I know of Game Theory, I can draw some conclusions: 1) Without trust, a society will function only on its lowest denominator, if we consider it a society at all. People will only look out for their self-interests and would not perceive to preemptively strike those they perceive as a threat, to ensure their own survival. 2) To create trust without a free information flow, the most common solution would require establishing a hierarchy. In such an organization (e.g. Governments), by virtue of the inequality of power, can track and punish individuals who infringe on trust and thus maintain a working level of trustfulness (and also a related concept called security). 3) A society without any structure, if it has to function efficiently, would have to self-create a Government. thus, anarchism would not work because it would sow its seeds for its own destruction. Humans have an instinct to form groups (of whose's members they can trust much more than others) thanks to evolution sele