From whaazup at hotmail.com Sat Sep 1 03:55:20 2001 From: whaazup at hotmail.com (whaazup at hotmail.com) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 06:55:20 -0400 Subject: HOWDY!!!! Message-ID: <200109011030.DAA19753@ecotone.toad.com> ÐÏࡱál freedom. Read on... Thank you for your time and Interest. This is the letter you've been reading about in the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the Internet, a major nightly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of the program described below to see, if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved once and for all that there are, absolutely no laws prohibiting the participation in the program. This has helped to show people that this is a simple, harmless, and fun way to make some extra money at home. The results of this show have been truly remarkable. So many people are participating that those involved are doing much better than ever before. Since everyone makes more as more people try it out, its been very exciting to be a part of lately. You will understand once you experience it. "HERE IT IS BELOW." ************************************************* Print This Now (IF YOU HAVE NOT already done it) for Future Reference The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in taking a look at. It can be started with VERY LITTLE investment and the income return is TREMENDOUS!!! THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEYMAKING OPPORTUNITY. It does not require you to come into contact with people, do any especially hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail. Simply follow the instructions, and you really can make this happen. This e-mail order-marketing program works every time if you put in the effort to make it work. E-mail is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of this non- commercialized method of advertising NOW! The longer you wait, the more savvy people will be taking your business using e-mail. Get what is rightfully yours. Program yourself for success and dare to think BIG. Sounds corny but its true. You'll never make it big if you dont have the belief system in place. ************************************************************** My name is Jonathan Rourke. Two years ago, the corporation I worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was eliminated. After unproductive job interviews, I decided to open my own business. Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial problems. I owed my family, friends, and creditors over $35,000. The economy was taking a toll on my business and I just couldn't seem to make ends meet. I had to refinance and borrow against my home to support my family and struggling business. At that moment something significant happened in my life and I am writing to share the experience in hopes that this will change your life forever financially! In mid December of 1997, I received this program via e-mail. Six months prior to receiving this program, I had been sending away for information on various business opportunities. All of the programs I received, in my opinion, were not cost effective. They were either too difficult for me to comprehend or the initial investment of hundreds of thousands of dollars was too much for me to risk to see if they would work or not. One claimed that I would make a million dollars in one year... it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it! But like I was saying, in December of 1997 I received this program. I didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing list. Thank goodness for that! After reading it several times, to make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes. Here was a money making phenomenon! I could invest as much as I wanted to start, without putting me further into debt. After I got a pencil and paper and figured it out, I would at least get my money back. But like most of you I was still a little skeptical and a little worried about the legal aspects of it all. So I checked it out with the U.S. Post Office (1-800-725-2161 24-hrs) and they confirmed that it is indeed legal! After determining the program was Legal and not a chain letter, I decided "Why not?." Initially I sent out 10,000 e-mails. It cost me about $25 for third party bulk emailing. The great thing about e-mail is that I don't need any money for printing to send out the program, and because all of my orders are fulfilled via e- mail, the only expense is my time or advertising costs. I am telling you like it is. I hope it doesn't turn you off, but I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how much money it cost me. Here is the basic version of what you need to do: Your first goal is to "Receive at least 20 orders for Report #1 within 2 weeks of your first program going out. IF YOU DON'T, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!" Your second goal is to "Receive at least 150 orders for report #2 within 2 weeks. IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. Once you have your 150 orders, relax, you've met your goal, you will make $50,000 but keep at it! If you don't get 150 right off, keep at it! It just may take some time for your down line to build, keep at it, stay focused and do not let yourself get distracted! In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for Report #1. I kept at it.. kept mailing out the program and By January 13, I had received 26 orders for Report #1. My first step in making $50,000 was done. By January 30, I had received 196 orders for Report #2, 46 more than I needed. So I relaxed, but kept at it mailing out programs via classified ad leads at first and then later via bulk email ads (not free like classifieds but much more effective). By March 1, three months after my e-mailing of the first 10,000 I had hit $58,000 with more coming in every day. I paid off ALL my debts and bought a much-needed new car. Please take time to read the attached program, IT CAN CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER!!! Remember, it won't work if you don't try it. This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rules of not trying to place your name in a different place. It won't work, you'll lose out on a lot of money! In order for this program to work very fast ( you will make money no matter what as long as you do some mailing of programs) try to meet your goal of 20 orders for REPORT #1, and 150 orders for REPORT #2 and you will make $50,000 or more in 90 days. If you don't reach the first two goals within two weeks, relax, you will still make a ton of money it may just take a few months or so longer. But keep mailing out programs and stay focused ! Thats the key! I am living proof that it works! If you choose not to participate in this program, I am sorry. It really is a great opportunity with minimal risk to you. If you choose to participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to financial security. If you are a fellow business owner and are in financial trouble like I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a sign. I DID! Sincerely, Jonathan Rourke PS Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) looks like piled up on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME! Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. ************************************************** THINK ABOUT IT: Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil and figure out what could happen when YOU participate. Figure out the worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will still make a lot of money! You will definitely get back what you invested. Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in. IT WORKS! Jody Jacobs, Richmond, VA ************************************************** HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU THOUSANDS OF DOLLAR$ INSTRUCTIONS: This method of raising capital REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME. If you get to work and stay focused on it! I am sure that you could use extra income or more in the next few months. Before you say, "NO WAY... ", please read this program carefully. This is a legal money making opportunity. Basically, this is what you do: As with all multi-level businesses, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products. Every state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-level business partners, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent. YOUR ORDERS COME BY MAIL AND ARE FILLED BY E-MAIL, so you are not involved in personal selling. You do it privately in your own home, store, or office. This is the GREATEST Multi-Level Mail Order Marketing anywhere: This is what you MUST do: 1. Order all 5 reports shown on the list below (you can't sell them if you don't order them). * For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, YOUR NAME & RETURN ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to the person whose name appears on the list next to the report. * When you place your order, make sure you order each of the five reports. You will need all five reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. * Within a few days, you will receive, via e-mail, each of the five reports. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. 2. IMPORTANT-- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than is instructed below in steps "a" through "g" or you will lose out on the majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you'll also see how it doesn't work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter it, it will not work. a. Look below for the listing of available reports. b. After you've ordered the five reports, take this Advertisement and remove the name and address under REPORT #5. This person has made it through a cycle and is no doubt on their way to $50,000 ! c. Move the name and address under REPORT #4 down to REPORT #5. d. Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to REPORT #4. e. Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3. f. Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to REPORT #2. g. Insert your name and address in the REPORT #1 position. Please make sure you copy every name and address ACCURATELY! Copy and paste method works well. (on IBM compatibles machines highlight the text you want to move and press ctrl-C to copy it and then click where you want it to go and then hit Ctrl - V to paste it in. Or use the edit menu.) 3. Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and save it to your computer. Make NO changes to the Instruction portion of this letter. Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can afford $25!). You obviously already have an Internet Connection and e-mail, which you use to fill your orders its basically FREE! To assist you with marketing your business on the Internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing information which includes how to send bulk e- mails, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much, much more. There are two primary methods of building your down line: METHOD #1: SENDING BULK E-MAIL Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we'll assume you and all those involved send out only 2,000 programs each. Let's also assume that the mailing receives a 0.5% response. Using a good list, the response could be much better. Also, many people will send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000. But continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs. With a 0.5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1. Those 10 people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000. Out of those 0.5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2. Those 100 people mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000. The 0.5% response to that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3. Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each for a 2,000,000 total. The 0.5% response to that is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4. That amounts to 10,000 each of $5 bills for you in CASH MONEY! Then think about level five! Your total income in this example would be $50 $500 $5,000 $50,000 for a total of $55,550 ! REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF THE 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO "ABSOLUTELY NOTHING" AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF HALF-SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF 2,000. Believe me, MANY people will do just that, and more! REPORT #2 will show you the best methods for bulk e-mailing, and email software. METHOD #2 - PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET 1. Classified Advertising on the web via message boards/ classified sites is very inexpensive, and there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to place ads. Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it works. Assume your goal is to get ONLY 10 people to participate on your first level. (Placing a lot of FREE classified ads on the Internet will EASILY get a larger response). Also, assume that everyone else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 down line members. Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results Below (same as email example): 1st level-your 10 members with $5............... $50 2nd level-10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100)....$500 3rd level-10 members from those 100 ($5 x1,000) $5,000 4th level-10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10k) $50,000 THIS TOTALS............................. ........$55,550 5th level-10 members from those 10,000 ($5 x 100k)???,???! Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only recruits 10 people each. Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20 people to participate! Many people get 100's of participants! THINK ABOUT IT! For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the report they ordered. THAT'S IT! ALWAYS TRY TO PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS! This will GUARANTEE that the e-mail THEY send out, with YOUR name and address on it, will be prompt. AVAILABLE REPORTS ---------------------------------------------------------- *** Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME *** Notes: - ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH (U.S. CURRENCY) FOR EACH REPORT CHEQUES ARE NOT ACCEPTED - ALWAYS SEND YOUR ORDER VIA FIRST CLASS MAIL - Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two sheets of paper (IF NOT MORE SO THAT THE BILL(s) CAN'T BE SEEN AGAINST LIGHT) - On one of those sheets of paper, include: (a) the number & name of the report you are ordering (b)your e-mail address (c) your name & postal address (as return address in case the post office encounters problems). PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW: Report #1 "The insider's Guide to Advertizing for free on the Internet." ORDER REPORT #1 FROM: Eric Allen 999 Westchester RD South Park, PA 15129 _______________________________________ REPORT #2 "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk E-mail on the Internet." ORDER REPORT #2 FROM: Maria Thibodeau PO Box 2294 Edgartown, MA 02539 __________________________________________________ REPORT #3 "The Insider's Guide to Multilevel Marketing on the Internet." ORDER REPORT #3 FROM: JC Cosi 17760 Candlewood Terrace Boca Raton, FL 33487 _______________________________________________ REPORT #4 "How to become a Millionare utilzing the Internet." ORDER REPORT #4 FROM: Andrew Moss 5959 Natchez Rd Riverside CA, 92509 ________________________________________________ REPORT #5 "How to become a Millionaire utilizing the Power of Multilevel Marketing and the Internet Part II" ORDER REPORT #5 FROM: Don Harpo 3028 Ridgeland Dr Jackson, MS 39212 _________________________________________________ About 50,000 new people get online every month! ******* TIPS FOR SUCCESS ******* * TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS! Be prompt, professional, and follow the directions accurately. * Send for the five reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when the orders start coming in because: * When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested product/report. * ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICES ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE. * Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the instructions exactly, your results WILL BE SUCCESSFUL! * ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED! ******* YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES ******* Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: Start posting ads as soon as you mail off for the reports! By the time you start receiving orders, your reports will be in your mailbox! For now.. something simple, such as posting on message boards something to the effect of "Would you like to know how to earn 50,000 working out of your house with NO initial investment? Email me with the keywords "more info" to find out how." ---- and when they email you , send them this report in response! If you don't receive 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks, keep at it, continue advertising or sending bulk e- mails UNTIL YOU DO. Then, a few weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT#2. If you don't, continue advertising or sending e-mails UNTIL YOU DO. Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, but continue to keep at it! Cash will continue to roll in! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a DIFFERENT report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. If you want to generate more income, send another batch of e-mails or continue placing ads and start the whole process again! There is virtually no limit to the income you will generate from this business! Before you make your decision as to whether or not you participate in this program. Please answer one question..... DO YOU "WANT" TO CHANGE YOUR LIFE? If the answer is yes, please look at the following facts about this program: 1. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST ANYTHING TO PRODUCE! 2. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST ANYTHING TO SHIP! 3. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST YOU ANYTHING TO ADVERTISE (except for bulk mailing costs if using that method)! 4. YOU ARE UTILIZING THE POWER OF THE INTERNET AND THE POWER OF MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING TO DISTRIBUTE YOUR PRODUCT ALL OVER THE WORLD! 5. YOUR ONLY EXPENSES OTHER THAN YOUR INITIAL $25 AND BULK MAILING COST INVESTMENT IS YOUR TIME! 6. VIRTUALLY ALL OF THE INCOME YOU GENERATE FROM THIS PROGRAM IS PURE PROFIT! 7. THIS PROGRAM REALY CAN CHANGE YOUR LIFE . ******* T E S T I M O N I A L S ******* This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't work and you'll lose a lot of potential income. I'm living proof that it works. It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with little cost to you. If you do choose to participate, follow the program exactly, and you'll be on your way to financial security. Stay focused on this program, don't let yourself get distracted stay focused on this program! Steven Bardfield, Portland, OR ****************************************************** My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody, and I live in Chicago, IL. I am a cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received the program, I grumbled to Jody about receiving "junk mail." I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I "knew" it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing didn't work... well, the laugh was on me! Within two weeks, she had received over 50 responses. Within 105 days, she had received over $47,200 in $5 bills! I was shocked! I was sure that I had it all figured and that it wouldn't work. I AM a believer now. I have joined Jody in her "hobby." I did have seven more years until retirement, but I think of the "rat race" and it's not for me. We owe it all to network marketing (MLM). Mitchell Wolf MD., Chicago, IL ****************************************************** The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount of money in a short time. I was approached several times before I checked this out. I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in the first 14 weeks, with money still coming in. If you are already in the program and haven't made at least this much, its because you need to stay ACTIVE! This thing is awesome, i did it, anyone can do it! Charles Morris, Esq. *************************************************** Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back. Boy, was I surprised when I found my medium-size post office box crammed with orders! For awhile, it got so overloaded that I had to start picking up my mail at the window. I'll make more money this year than any 10 years of my life before. The nice thing about this deal is that it doesn't matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment for what it allows you, personal freedom. Paige Willis, Des Moines, IA ************************************************** I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed another program. Eleven months passed then it came...I didn't delete this one!!! I made more than $41,000. This is for real, get to work. Violet Wilson, Johnstown, PA **************************************************** We have quit our jobs, and will soon buy a home on the beach and live off the interest on our money. The only way on earth that this plan will work for you is if you do it. For your sake, and for your family's sake don't pass up this golden opportunity. Good luck and happy spending! Kerry Ford, Centerport, NY *************************************************** ORDER YOUR REPORTS AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM! *************************************************** FOR YOUR INFORMATION: If you need help with starting a business, registering a business name, learning how income tax is handled, etc., contact your local office of the Small Business Administration (a Federal agency) 1-(800)827-5722 for free help and answers to questions. Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via telephone and free seminars about business tax requirements. IT IS TOTALLY UP TO YOU NOW!!! CAN YOU HANDLE SUCCESS AND ALL THAT MONEY??? ****************************************************** Under Bills.1618 Title III passed by the 105th US Congress this letter cannot be considered spam as the sender includes contact information and a method of removal. No request for removal is necessary as this is a one time e-mail transmission. **************************************************** qmps From jamesd at echeque.com Sat Sep 1 08:32:50 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 08:32:50 -0700 Subject: The Privacy/Untraceability Sweet Spot In-Reply-To: References: <3B9007E3.23239.56AF97A@localhost> Message-ID: <3B909D32.158.2FBB72@localhost> -- Jim Choate: > > > A revolution is when one part of a populace takes up arms > > > against another part of the populace. James A. Donald: > > When Hitler authorized Krystalnacht, that was a revolution? Jim Choate: > No, that was the consequence of one that had already worked. Hitler won an election. Elections are not revolutions. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG kkhXI4hlswmw7ZHloO1eOp3cArJKup7XBtIQKClP 4EaEwV+7Cy3c4IADhTCdWkFZF1eOQINh++poiAhVB From tcmay at got.net Sat Sep 1 09:01:56 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 09:01:56 -0700 Subject: Tim's Tips on Avoiding Prosecution In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010831181443.00867460@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <200109011605.f81G51f18011@slack.lne.com> On Friday, August 31, 2001, at 06:14 PM, David Honig wrote: > At 10:41 AM 8/31/01 -0700, Tim May wrote: >> 5. At physical Cypherpunks meetings, by all means talk about politics, >> uses of technology, even "anarchic" things. But avoid being drawn into >> debates about what to do to specific politicians, judges, etc.. >> (Attendees at Bay Area meetings will know that for 9 years now we have >> had occasional heated discussions of these things, but we have avoided >> the kind of "people's tribunal" crap that helped get Bell into >> trouble.) > > Maybe *that's* the reason for holding meatings at the SFPD. > To keep everyone from naming future corpses. I certainly would never attend a Cypherpunks meeting held at a police training facility! A bizarre development in the history of Cypherpunks, that's for sure. >> However, a leader of Aryan Nation, for example, calling for his >> followers to kill Jews might cross the line ("incitement"). Their have >> been a few civil actions where the organization or its leaders were >> held >> liable for damages caused by followers who were incited to _specific_ >> actions. > > So kill David Berg might be incitement? Hmm, he was a public figure. > But "kill all Jews" could easily be justified on religious grounds > -fatwas > are protected speech. Specificity matters. If someone with some ability to influence urges his followers to "Kill Jews," and some of them begin to, expect an "incitement" (and perhaps "conspiracy") charge to stick against the speaker. If someone mere opines that Jews should be killled, protected speech. > >> After about 10 minutes of staring me down, they told me to walk to the >> closest point that was off campus and not to return. I asked about my >> car. "If you are seen on campus, you will be arrested. You can get your >> car tomorrow." (Great, since I lived 60 miles away.) > > A "fuck you" would have been appropriate, but not in your > rational self-interest. I just said very little. When they asked me for ID, I said nothing. When they asked me for my name, I said nothing. When they said they wanted to search my bag, I said "No." >> She said that students and faculty had all been dealing >> with the effects of Chelsea's arrival as a student and that the law >> school would be quite happy to handle my case if the SS or Stanford >> Sheriff's Dept. nabbed me. > > Sweet. Didn't happen, though. No arrest. Also no return gigs at her class...for whatever reason. If I recall the years right, it was in '95 that I first spoke, then in '97 when the incident occurred. We've had no contact since. Maybe I wasn't the speaker she wanted, maybe she'd heard enough from me, maybe my run-in with the Securitat was enough for her. (And Larry Lessig is now at Stanford, so maybe he's taken over teaching the cyberlaw class.) --TIm May From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Sat Sep 1 00:11:37 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 09:11:37 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: secure IRC/messaging successor In-Reply-To: <3B8FF532.E8ED45C2@zolera.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 31 Aug 2001, Rich Salz wrote: > Gale seems to have a better security story, but Jabber certainly has the > momentum and large force behind it. How does SILC http://www.silcnet.org/ fit the bill? -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From jya at pipeline.com Sat Sep 1 09:21:08 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 09:21:08 -0700 Subject: SIGINT Law in the US Message-ID: <200109011328.JAA26626@mclean.mail.mindspring.net> Lawrence Sloan writes in the Duke Law Journal http://www.law.duke.edu/shell/cite.pl?50+Duke+L.+J.+1467 ----- "The various allegations surrounding ECHELON can be roughly grouped into two categories. The first set of allegations, coming primarily from Europe, concerns the use of the ECHELON system to conduct economic espionage on behalf of American companies. The second set of allegations involves the illegal use of ECHELON to collect intelligence about American citizens. This second set of allegations will be the focus of this Note. In a society such as ours, which considers privacy and freedom from intrusive government to be fundamental values, the prospect of the American government spying on its citizens is extremely troubling. These allegations raise questions about the sufficiency of the legal restrictions placed on the collection and use of signals intelligence. The use of national intelligence assets to conduct industrial espionage for the benefit of American companies over their foreign competitors is controversial, but that issue turns primarily upon matters of policy rather than law. This Note will focus on the legal restrictions on signals intelligence (SIGINT) activities and, thus, will set aside the primarily policy-driven question of using national intelligence assets to conduct economic espionage." ----- From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sat Sep 1 09:40:26 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 09:40:26 -0700 Subject: secure IRC/messaging successor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010901093813.02f85100@idiom.com> At 06:41 PM 08/30/2001 +0200, Eugene Leitl wrote: >Gale http://www.gale.org/ seems a well thought out infrastructure. Is the >consensus "this is it", or have I missed any alternatives? Jabber seems to be emerging as the main cross-ISP instant messaging platform. I'm not sure how much security it offers, but I've heard that somebody's doing something along those lines. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sat Sep 1 09:53:38 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 09:53:38 -0700 Subject: The Privacy/Untraceability Sweet Spot In-Reply-To: <3B8E0F55.11310.49D1EA@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010827181615.023f0430@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com > Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010901094957.02f832d0@idiom.com> At 10:03 AM 08/30/2001 -0700, jamesd at echeque.com wrote: >Concerning your example of the IRA -- I recollect that for a long >time the US government allowed IRA fundraising, and use of the US >banking system for transfers to the IRA. It wasn't that the US government _allowed_ IRA fundraising, except in that the First Amendment protects such things. For a long time, the US Government hadn't banned it, though a couple of years ago Congress passed a law allowing the President to declare specific organizations to be Offical Terrorists and ban fundraising activities by or for them. I don't remember if the IRA is on the enemies list, but Hizbollah.org is. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sat Sep 1 09:59:53 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 09:59:53 -0700 Subject: Borders UK and privacy In-Reply-To: References: <20010829232844.B24387@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010901095849.02f81830@idiom.com> At 02:59 PM 08/30/2001 -0400, Duncan Frissell wrote: >How about a tailored virus that modifies your DNA on a rotating basis in >non significant fashion so that you're constantly "new". I wonder if >that would be theoretically possible? Fun times. So that _who's_ constantly new? Somebody, but would it still be you? From kwikresponse at earthlink.net Sat Sep 1 09:44:29 2001 From: kwikresponse at earthlink.net (Details Instantly) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 10:44:29 -0600 Subject: Fellow PPL associate Message-ID: <20019138669cypherpunks@minder.net> Hi: I noticed your well done ad in classifieds. As a PPL associate I'd like to introduce myself and maybe compare notes. If you'd like to do so please email me. Meanwhile check out my site that I and many other associates are using to gain a large volume of names due to the SEM system and popup windows that follow the visitor as he navigates the normal PPL site. Here's some URLs to check out� Home page w/popup http://www.free-law-central.com Associate recruiting page http://www.free-law-central.com/associate_lead.htm Focus advertising page http://www.free-law-central.com/free_will.htm To your success J.R. Orsoni 954-566-5175 P.S. If you ever want to chat live go to: http://www.free-law-central.com/associate_talk.htm 1/9/01 From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Sep 1 08:59:56 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 10:59:56 -0500 (CDT) Subject: SIG: Fwd: [PGP-USERS] ANNOUNCE: PGP Source Code Now Available For Download (fwd) Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 339 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Sep 1 09:05:02 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 11:05:02 -0500 (CDT) Subject: The Privacy/Untraceability Sweet Spot In-Reply-To: <3B909D32.158.2FBB72@localhost> Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Sep 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote: > Jim Choate: > > No, that was the consequence of one that had already worked. > > Hitler won an election. Elections are not revolutions. Actually it was the consequence of winning an election. getting a particularly important appointment, AND getting the military to swear an oath to HIM (not Germany). The election alone didn't make him Fuhrer or give him the political and legal base to execute his murders with impunity. -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rsalz at zolera.com Sat Sep 1 08:20:05 2001 From: rsalz at zolera.com (Rich Salz) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 11:20:05 -0400 Subject: secure IRC/messaging successor References: Message-ID: <3B90FCA5.B81A203D@zolera.com> > How does SILC http://www.silcnet.org/ fit the bill? For what it's worth, *I* don't know enough about it to have an opinion. I'd be curious what others think. /r$ -- Zolera Systems, Securing web services (XML, SOAP, Signatures, Encryption) http://www.zolera.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From nobody at paranoici.org Sat Sep 1 03:08:06 2001 From: nobody at paranoici.org (Anonymous) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 12:08:06 +0200 Subject: The Tim May Question Message-ID: <6b27c70a11b79df3173bf6d781338b73@paranoici.org> In another message Tim wrote: >On Sunday, August 26, 2001, at 12:11 AM, Reese wrote: >> It's easy to stay on topic, or on a topic, it's another thing to be >> appropriate. Tim is good, but easy improvement is within reach, as >> you sort of noted. > > Fuck off. I'll take constructive criticism from people who are > better writers than I, or at least in the same ballpark. > > But not from those who have left no lasting impression. I'm not sure if Reese was replying to one of my messages, but this obsession less productive posters have with Tim is peculiar. Looked at as an engineering problem, one tends to look at the underperforming components. Let's say you are running a steel mill, and the average uptime of your blast furnaces is 10%. One is 95%. Nobody would spend their time trying to get the last 5% out of the best furnace. Anybody would look at it and figure out how to get the other furnaces performing. So, some other force is at work. One candidate is the usual tedious resentment that some people feel towards people they see as smarter, more knowledgeable, and more creative than themselves. This sort of behavior is deeply repugnant to me, much more so than occasional political incorrectness. Another candidate is that certain people see Tim as somehow their leader (or something), therefore making him accountable in some way. Given that Tim is not anybody's leader and doesn't seem to want to be, this is less repugnant than it is ridiculous. From tcmay at got.net Sat Sep 1 12:20:30 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 12:20:30 -0700 Subject: News: "U.S. May Help Chinese Evade Net Censorship" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200109011923.f81JNTf18595@slack.lne.com> On Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 11:30 AM, Faustine wrote: > On Friday, August 31, 2001, at 01:27 PM, Faustine wrote: > >> On Friday, August 31, 2001, at 11:43 AM, Faustine wrote: > >> Consistent with your misconception about big computers being useful for >> brute-force cryptanalyis, > > I never said that and you know it. Nice troll, though. You did indeed. Several times you alluded to what big and powerful computers the NSA must have, the better to blow our house down. When it was pointed out to you the nature of brute-forcing a big key, and how useless computers are, you seemed not to get the point. --Tim May From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Sat Sep 1 10:45:18 2001 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 13:45:18 -0400 Subject: China Stories - US Busting Crypto Exports, Fighting Censorship by Corrupting Safeweb References: <5.0.2.1.1.20010831213451.02f6f600@idiom.com> Message-ID: <3B911EAE.2000705@dragonsweb.org> Bill Stewart wrote: > The NYT and USA Today both have articles about the > Customs busting two US Chinese guys for exporting US military crypto gear. > It's the KIV-7HS, made by our old buddies at Mykotronx (who made Clipper.) > The NYT said the Feds were worried that if the Chinese reverse > engineered it, > they'd be able to crack lots of our crypto secrets. > Normally I'd say that if that's the case, it's really shoddy crypto - > but one of the interesting things Bamford mentions in "Body of Secrets" > is that one of the US spies, I think Hansen or Walker, had been > feeding crypto keys to the Russians, so the crypto gear they got from > the Pueblo made it possible for them to crack years of messages; > perhaps they're worried about the same thing here. > Eugene Hsu of Blue Springs, MO and David Yang of Temple City CA > face a maximum penalty of 10 years in jail and $1M fine. > > Meanwhile, the NYT had a front-page story that one of the > US propaganda agencies is proposing to help fight censorship in China > by promoting Safeweb, which is partly funded by In-Q-It, the CIA venture > fund. > They've apparently got about 100 servers, and the Triangle Boy feature > makes it possible for them to keep changing IP addresses to make > blocking harder. I assume if there are also Chinese Spies using it, > the CIA will be able to get the operators to rat out their identities... > But the main use will be to feed lots of news into China. > I'd already mistrusted Safeweb - not their honesty, but their technology, > since they require you to enable Javascript to use their tools. > Yes, it makes it easy to write cool and powerful tools, > but even if _their_ Javascript is perfectly secure, > the fact that you need to have it turned on leaves you vulnerable > whenever you read other web pages. (Also, their Javascript is slightly > buggy; > I've had trouble with window size and positioning issues.) > > A third China Card in the news is the GAO's announcement that they > suspect that Code Red originated at a university in Guangdong. > Keith Rhodes, GAO's chief technologist, gave written testimony to > the House Government Reform subcommittee, but didn't return US Today's > calls. > Of course, the real blame belongs to Microsoft - and US Today, > who are getting surprisingly technical this week, has a couple of articles > about the recent Hotmail/Passport hacks, in which security consultant > and former Yahoo security advisor Jeremiah Grossman, who had recently > cracked Hotmail in three lines of code, now has it down to one line... > This is another cross-site scripting attack. > > Pretty short-sighted if CRII is a Chinese govt. intel operation. Looking through my logs I see scans from rooted boxes in Guangdong. As well as hundreds of locations all around the world. A number of Middle Eastern locations, for instance. Unless they're all honeypots, they're giving as much as they're getting. If this supposition is true, which I doubt. Could have been anybody, and no particular reason to single out China over any other potential culprit. Nope, no telling who, and more importantly, no point worrying about it, since everybody and his brother that's wont is exploiting it. Just chalk it up to entropy and deal with it. I'm wondering if that Mykotronx box couldn't have done more guod for U.S. intel if it *had* gone to China, but I'm not familiar enough with it to know. Unless the recipient was planning to set up a counterfeit assembly line or something. In which case I wouldn't be too happy if I were Mykotronx. Since Mykotronx is getting press, I will put in a word for Bytex, which also makes encrypting ATM firewalls and such. You can get a way-cool Leo Marks WWII Silk Code mousepad from their website, http://www.bytex.com, in exchange for your sekrit personal info. jbdigriz From tcmay at got.net Sat Sep 1 14:21:46 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 14:21:46 -0700 Subject: Moral Crypto In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200109012124.f81LOlf18960@slack.lne.com> On Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 01:30 PM, Nomen Nescio wrote: > On 31 Aug 2001, at 12:13, georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote: >> On 31 Aug 2001, at 19:50, Nomen Nescio wrote: >>> This means that the operators >>> choose to whom they will market and sell their services. >> >> Here I disagree completely. I think in a properly designed >> anonymity system the users will be, well, anonymous, and >> it should be impossible to tell any more about them than that they >> pay their bills on time. Certainly most potential users would balk at >> requirements that they prove who they were and justify their desire >> to use such a system, since that would tend to defeat the purpose. > > Yes and no. The users aren't all that anonymous, or they wouldn't need > anonymous technologies, would they? The remailer network sees where > this message originates. If you use Zero Knowledge software, their > network knows exactly who is using it at any time. If a digital cash > bank came into existence, payments transferred into the digital system > from outside would largely be from identified sources. What can I say? You clearly don't understand: -- how remailer _networks_ work (Hint: nested encryption...all the first remailer sees when he opens a message is an encrypted message he can't read and instructions on which remailer to send it to next, and so on. Only if most/all remailers collaborate can the route be followed by them.) -- how Freedom works (Hint: They say that even they cannot know who is using it, except in terms of network usage. Which with cover traffic, forwarding of other traffic, dummy messages, etc., means the fact that Alice was using the network during a period of time does not mean they know which exit messages are hers.) -- blinding. (Hint: That Alice deposits money into a digital bank, and is identified by the bank, does not mean the bank knows who received digital money from Alice, because Alice unblinds the note before spending it--or redeeming it.) > The real issue is the clause above about "market and sell". This was > the original point raised by Tim May: what markets do we select? You have several times attempted to corral me into your "which markets are moral, which do we focus on?" point. I only cited several obvious examples (discussed _many_ times here, e.g., the distribution of birth control info in Islamic countries, e.g., dissidents in a corrupt regime (ZOG), etc.) because some of the newcomers seem so unimaginative and ill-informed that they were whining about how untraceability only helps criminals, perverts, and terrrorists. This does _not_ mean I have issued any kind of call for people to work on "moral" uses, and I wish you would stop using my name in support of your moral crusade. One man's supplier of the herb is another man's drug dealer. One man's erotica creator is another man's pervert. One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. These are all obvious points discussed many hundreds of times on this list. > His whiteboard exercise teaches that you need to identify, select and > target particular markets which make sense. And if you care about the > world you are creating, that's where the moral issue comes in. It means the markets are further out from the "dollar ghetto" than many people think. And the further out from the origin (0,0), the more heated the debate becomes about terrorists, perverts, tax evaders, and so on. >> I don't think it serves >> any purpose to discuss who constitute "valiant freedom fighters >> resisting a tyrannical government" and who are "bloody terrorist >> fanatics attempting to overthrow a benign legitimate government >> and replace it wth a worse one" in this forum. We may have strong >> opinions on this matter as individuals, but it is completely >> unreasonable to expect us to come to any kind of consensus as a >> group. > > Nonsense. Most participants in this forum DO share common philosophical > goals: the preservation and enhancement of individual freedom via > technological means. This is our common heritage. People make moral > judgements every single day on this list based on exactly this > framework. > And it is this moral view which tells us that bin Laden and his > terrorist > groups are not the market which we should target in order to advance > these goals. > How about McVeigh? How about The Real IRA? How about John Brown? How about Patrick Henry/ How about Cuban exiles? (By the way, everyone should know about the time an anti-Castro group blew up a Cuban airliner. Terrorists, freedom fighters, or just a bunch who wants to be in control?) I spoke of dissident-grade untraceability, identical to pedophile-grade untraceability. Not to support either dissdents or pedophiles, but to provide a handle on just how good this untraceability must be so as to protect dissidents from arrest and execution and pedophiles from arrest and imprisonment (or execution in Islamic regimes). > Surely not. Morality plays a part in everything we do. We have goals > in common. We should structure our efforts so that they are in > accordance > with our highest goals. Having principles is nothing to be ashamed of. > We all have them, and we should be proud of that. From your words, I doubt you support the same goals I support. In any case, please stop invoking my name in support of your "moral crypto" points. --Tim May From a3495 at cotse.com Sat Sep 1 11:30:00 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 14:30:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: News: "U.S. May Help Chinese Evade Net Censorship" Message-ID: On Friday, August 31, 2001, at 01:27 PM, Faustine wrote: > On Friday, August 31, 2001, at 11:43 AM, Faustine wrote: >> Tim wrote: >>> But, as with Kirchoff's point, the attacker is going to get the design >>> eventually. >> If getting the design "eventually" were good enough, why the keen >> interest in putting in a large order for the beta? There's a reason. >> Perhaps the NSA wanted to use the product without making illegal >> copies? >> Your earlier point (that they wished to reverse-engineer the product) >> is in fact undermined by this fact that they bought N copies. > > Unless you believe reverse engineering is only useful for making pirated > copies, there's no reason to assume any sort of contradiction at all. > > As if the NSA would use anything from the private sector they didn't > know inside out. >Consistent with your misconception about big computers being useful for >brute-force cryptanalyis, I never said that and you know it. Nice troll, though. > it appears you also believe the myth about the >mighty NSA knowing more than the private sector. >You _really_ need to get an education on these matters. Are you actually claiming NSA implements COTS technology completely straight off-the-shelf? And what do any of these "you poopy head whippersnapper" comments have to do with the fact that you found a contradiction where there was none? Boss Tom Turkey in full strut. ~Faustine. From tcmay at got.net Sat Sep 1 14:47:16 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 14:47:16 -0700 Subject: Using supercomputers to break interesting ciphers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200109012150.f81LoKf19044@slack.lne.com> On Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 01:53 PM, Faustine wrote: > Tim Wrote: >>> On Friday, August 31, 2001, at 11:43 AM, Faustine wrote: >> >>> Consistent with your misconception about big computers being useful >>> for >>> brute-force cryptanalyis, >> >> I never said that and you know it. Nice troll, though. > >> You did indeed. Several times you alluded to what big and powerful >> computers the NSA must have, the better to blow our house down. When it >> was pointed out to you the nature of brute-forcing a big key, and how >> useless computers are, you seemed not to get the point. > > Oh, well that might have a little something to do with the fact that I > never made the point that brute-forcing keys was the way big and > powerful > NSA computers are going to blow our house down, mightn't it. The fact > that "brute-forcing keys" was the only thing you could think of when you > saw my phrase "interesting possibilities for cryptographic applications" > and then chose to fixate on proving what a damn poopy head > whippersnapper I > am instead of deigning to bother over what methods I meant to refer to > is > indicative of your own limitations, not mine. You are now backpedaling furiously away from your "common to newbies" claim that fast computers might be used to break ciphers. Here's a chunk of dialog from an August 8 post of yours: (comments after ">" are from Tim) >Except when was the last time you heard of a Cypherpunks-interesting >cipher being broken with _any_ amount of computer crunching? "Since when did people stop trying? The last time I heard a researcher talk about trying to break a Cypherpunks-interesting cipher was last Thursday." This, and similar comments you made about the Sandia and IBM supercomputers, clearly imply you think one of the uses of these supercomputers is to "try" to break what I called Cypherpunks-interesting ciphers. Many who are exposed to crypto to the first time, and who haven't thought about the issue of factoring large numbers, simply "assume" that a worthwhile goal is to "try" ("Since when did people stop trying?") to break such ciphers with faster computers. (To be sure, there are interesting projects on faster factoring methods, better quadratic sieves, searches for Mersenne primes, all that good number theory stuff. Some of it is even being done at Sandia. But this is a far cry from the common belief that Cypherpunks-interesting ciphers may fall to attacks with mere supercomputers. Do the math on what a trillion such Sandia computers could do if they ran for a billion years...then realize there are keys already in use today which cannot be attacked by brute-force (or probably any other direct means) with all of the computer power that the universe could ever support. Mind-boggling, but I realized this via some calculations just after starting to look closely at RSA.) You are now backpedalling, claiming you never meant this. Similar to the way you claimed "if someone else is convinced it's interesting enough to be willing to food the power bill (as I had anticipated would be the case)," well AFTER I posted an article pointing out that the power bill alone for running older Pentiums and G3s would pay for faster new CPUs to make the old DIY machines a waste of time. Fact is, you HADN'T "anticipated" this...you saw my calculations of watts and MIPS and only _then_ did you retroactively "anticipate" that power concerns make such arrays of old machines a lose. Check the archives. When some adds a gratuitous "As I had anticipated would be the case" under these circumstance we know we are in the presence of a faker. --Tim May From a3495 at cotse.com Sat Sep 1 12:19:42 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 15:19:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: News: 'U.S. May Help Chinese Evade Net Censorship' In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010831183757.03a22020@pop3.norton.antivirus> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20010831183757.03a22020@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: Greg wrote: > At 05:31 PM 8/31/2001 -0400, Faustine wrote: >>Sure. But to what extent can you collaborate without a)approaching >>full- blown collusion or b) getting taken for a ride in spite of your >>best efforts? > > When you talk about "collaborating" and ZKS selling beta software to > the NSA, are you saying you've got information that ZKS gave the NSA > access to more information than the general public got, and/or that > the NSA got their access or information meaningfully earlier than the > general public? > If that's the case, that's interesting, but that's too serious a claim > to let pass by as an unstated implication. Actually, it would be far more more informative to get them to explain exactly what happened instead of relying on third-party empty hearsay and hot air from me, since honestly that's all I've got. But I'm sure there are a lot of reasons--some of them contractural--you'll never hear the whole story. Especially given that you'll never get anything more than loose talk from the other side. My personal opinion is that collusion or not, they got taken for a ride. And if it's not worth much, so be it. ~Faustine. From a3495 at cotse.com Sat Sep 1 13:12:25 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 16:12:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Jim Bell sentenced to 10 years in prison In-Reply-To: <3B901607.23698.5A2392D@localhost> References: <3B901607.23698.5A2392D@localhost> Message-ID: Jim wrote: > On 31 Aug 2001, at 15:21, Faustine wrote: >> Bah, it's dangerous to be so sure. And all the fevered talk >> about Aimee being a fed is hysterical. > Feds tend to stick out in the same way she does. That does not > prove she is a fed of course, it is not even particularly good > evidence that she is a fed, but there are feds on this list. All I'm saying is that if the feds are doing their job well, they won't stick out at all. Smells like a witch hunt. >> Haven't you ever gone to a usenet group and baited people just >> for the hell of it because you were bored? > > She does not know enough about us to bait us correctly -- she > also issues appeasing win-their-confidence stuff, and it is the > wrong stuff. That incompetent buttering up very fed like > behavior. Someone who does not know enough to issue the right > win-their-confidence stuff usually does not care enough to issue > win-their-confidence stuff. Of course it could be she is merely > incompetently trying to douse the flames she has incompetently > raised. Anyone who comes here and regularly expresses unpopular opinions in a provocative way is generally--almost by definition--"not liked". And if you don't like someone, you tend to interpret anything they do in the light of your not liking them. I can't help but think that since the topics being discussed here are so sensitive, everyone gets a little twitchy and runs the risk of going overboard in the way they perceive "dissenters" who are at odds with the prevailing wisdom. Actually, I think the group would be better off if more people were around to goad everyone into clarifying their thoughts and articulating them succinctly and persuasively. Couldn't hurt. Believe it or not, Choate is doing everyone a favor. And even if a whole gang of feds were actively trolling the group, what difference would it make as long as everyone has enough sense to see through it and keep their heads on straight? In a sick and perverse sense, you might call it Darwinian justice. Also, the "but they're wasting our time" angle is easily circumvented by having the self-discipline not to write knee-jerk replies to obvious nonsense. Some people never learn... >The distinctive characteristic of an undercover fed is > that they are pretending to be someone they are not, and doing it > badly, confused about what their role is, and uninformed of how > real people in that role act -- for example her recent flame > againt ZKS. Real people who are really concerned about the > security of ZKS, and really hate and fear the NSA, do not talk > like that. I must have missed it. Unless you think I'm one of her nyms, you might noticed I've had some unkind words for ZKS myself. Becuase as much as I fear the NSA, I fear gullibility and stupidity among the well-intentioned even more. And if saying so makes for a more entertaining debate, well, so much the better. > Now quite possibly she is just upset by getting continually > flamed, and is just putting on a rather bad act to persuade us > she is on our side. But putting on a rather bad act is also > something feds do. Incompetent acting is does not mean one is a > fed, but if one is a fed, it means one acts incompetently. True, but if she really is incompetent, she's hardly a threat, is she. The only feds to really worry about are the competent ones. ~Faustine. From nobody at dizum.com Sat Sep 1 07:40:05 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 16:40:05 +0200 (CEST) Subject: U.S. May Help Chinese Evade Net Censorship Message-ID: <512948aaaddfefa8777779d9820bdf2d@dizum.com>  AUG 30, 2001 U.S. May Help Chinese Evade Net Censorship By JENNIFER 8. LEE he United States government agencies that once tried to breach the Iron Curtain with radio broadcasts are taking the information war to the Internet, hoping to finance an American-based computer network designed to thwart attempts by the Chinese government to censor the World Wide Web for users in China. Government officials and private architects of the plan say the program would be financed by the International Broadcasting Bureau, parent agency of the Voice of America, which has been presenting the American view abroad � mostly by radio � for decades. It would mark a significant expansion of the long-running information war between China and the United States. The agency is in advanced discussions with Safeweb, a small company based in Emeryville, Calif., which has received financing from the venture capital arm of the Central Intelligence Agency, In-Q-Tel. The discussions were confirmed by parties on both sides. Safeweb currently runs its own worldwide network of about 100 privacy servers � computers that help disguise what Web sites a user is seeking to view � which are popular with users in China. The privacy servers have been a continuing target for the Chinese government, which has blocked most of them in recent weeks. The bureau would provide money for new computers to run Safeweb software specifically tailored for the Chinese audience and intended to be more resistant to blocking by the government. It would also cover some of the costs of network bandwidth to carry the the Internet traffic, but would not act as host for the computers itself. The plan would initially pay for around a dozen computers, with an option to grow to a larger number after the new federal fiscal year begins on Oct. 1. The project would be financed from a Congressional allocation of $5 million last year intended to improve broadcasting to China, including both Internet and radio. Of that $5 million, $800,000 was approved for "Internet and multimedia enhancement," some of which is scheduled for use on this project. "We recognized that we have an obligation to reach out to our audience in ways that are effective, that includes the Internet," said Tish King, a spokeswoman for the International Broadcasting Bureau. To that end, Voice of America also started VOANews.com to make news available worldwide on the Internet. Currently, audio broadcasts in over 53 languages are streamed live and archived on the site. Text is archived in almost all the languages. Voice of America has been developing an Internet strategy to reach an audience in China with a daily newsletter in Chinese that is e- mailed to 180,000 people and a Chinese-language news Web site. In addition to a Chinese-language Web site, Radio Free Asia also maintains Web sites aimed at ethnic minority groups in China like Tibetans and Uighurs, who are concentrated in the northwest region of Xinjiang. But the Chinese government has sporadically jammed the radio broadcasts from Voice of America since 1989 and from Radio Free Asia since 1997, a year after it began, specifically those in Mandarin and Tibetan. The government has also blocked the Chinese-language Web sites of Voice of America since 1997 and Radio Free Asia almost since it began in 1998. For Chinese leaders, the Internet is a doubled-edged sword, a rapidly evolving medium that brings economic opportunity but remains beyond complete control. Internet use in China is growing dramatically, seeping from urban universities and businesses to homes and affordable Internet cafes all over the country. The Chinese government estimates there were over 26 million Internet users in July, compared to only 9 million at the end of 1999. Periodically, the government tries new ways to tighten control, including police raids. Since April the government has waged a campaign to shut down thousands of unlicensed Internet cafes, and the government has publicized the arrests of over a dozen "Internet dissidents" over the last three years. The government maintains an elaborate set of rules that requires Internet service providers to electronically filter content that may be pornographic, anti-government, violent, unhealthy or superstitious. Among sites that are blocked for the vast majority of users are those of The Washington Post (news/quote), Amnesty International and various sites identifying with the Falun Gong spiritual movement, which the Chinese government has accused of being a cult. However, users can access other news sites including ABCnews.com, the British Broadcasting Corporation and USA Today. Until early this month, the site for The New York Times (news/quote) on the Web was blocked. The blocking was lifted after an interview with President Jiang Zemin by top editors at The Times in which President Jiang was specifically questioned about the blocking of the site. Chinese Web users have nevertheless found methods to get around the censorship. In a recent study by researchers at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences in Beijing, more than a quarter of Internet users admitted to occasionally using Internet proxy computers, which work similarly to those of Safeweb, while 10 percent admitted to frequent use. That was much higher than was expected, said Guo Liang, one of the researchers. Among the most popular masquerade services is Safeweb, an 18- month-old company. The technology, dubbed Triangle Boy (after a character in an episode of the sitcom "Seinfeld"), can fool an electronic filter into thinking Web content is coming from a benign computer server instead of a blocked site like Human Rights Watch. But the service has become a target for the Chinese government, which has engaged in a cat-and- mouse game with Safeweb, blacklisting the Triangle Boy servers themselves. "They are becoming increasingly aggressive," said Stephen Hsu, chief executive of Safeweb. "We get these frantic emails from users saying they are totally cut off now." In addition, Safeweb says, the Chinese government is now blocking e- mail sent to users who request Triangle Boy e-mail addresses. As a response, Safeweb is encouraging users to sign up for free Web-based e- mail accounts at non-Chinese services like Hotmail and Yahoo (news/quote). Part of the proposal being financed by the International Broadcasting Bureau would have the Triangle Boy servers change their Internet addresses on a regular basis � perhaps as frequently as every few hours � to make them more difficult for the Chinese government to find and block. Despite government efforts to rein in the Internet, it is playing an emerging political role in China. The study by the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, one of the most rigorous Internet studies in China to date, found that 67.5 percent of adult users believe the Internet gives people more opportunity to criticize government policies. And more than 74 percent agree the Internet allows people to "express their political views" and to learn about politics. "We want to force the Chinese government to accept the pro-democracy consequences of the Internet," said Dr. Hsu. "Up until now the Chinese government has been amazingly successful at having their cake and eating it too." Copyright 2001 The New York Times Company From mixmaster at remailer.segfault.net Sat Sep 1 07:41:17 2001 From: mixmaster at remailer.segfault.net (Anonymous Coredump) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 16:41:17 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Anonymous Posting Message-ID: Tim May wrote: > I don't recall the context, but I don't have any such friends or > even acquaintances. Even those I know on the Far Right don't want to > kill _all_ Jews, just the pesky freedom-stealing ones, and the > millions who form the Zionist Occupation Government in the Zionist > Entity of ZOG-Occupied Palestine. This was the remark I had in mind: Tim May wrote on August 16, 2001: > (I know folks who think Judaism is in fact far worse, and who hope > and pray for the day when 4 million Jews in Occupied Palestine are > rounded up and liquidated. I take no position on this... I see now that "all Jews" mischaracterized your statement. My apologies. > Add nerve gases and biological agents to the mix over the next > several years. Cuts both ways, of course. If the past is any guide, mostly the innocent would die. > And I won't shed a tear, as those who left New York and Oslo and > Berlin and Phoenix to go to some tiny patch of land which they claim > YHWH the Terrible granted to the sons of a desert minor > potentate--this all revealed in a hash dream by an old man, > allegedly--well, they were fools in 1948 to kick Arabs off of their > farms and out of their homes. The Jews will suffer mightily. Which > might be all they really want, oy vey! I've known very few Jewish people who believe God gave them Israel, but it clearly has something to do with why that particular patch of land was chosen. Maybe it's the Schelling point of Zionism. The area is symbolically loaded for Jewish people, but the downside is that it's important to other people as well. Most Israelis that I've known see the religiously based Zionists as crazies, especially the ones from the U.S. Saying that Israelis are a certain way because there are people in Israel with certain views is as reasonable as saying that Jim Bell is a good guide to the cypherpunks. The exact nature of Zionism seems hard to pin down, sort of like defining a "cypherpunk". It is clear that many Zionists are not religious. > And I know many people who support, as I do of course, the right of > Aryan Nation(s) to do their thing without lawsuits from offended > Jews and liberals. Last I heard, Aryan Nation(s) was not building > any gas chambers. Shutting down the "organization" due to, for > example, the murder of Allan Berg in Denver makes no more moral or > legal sense than shutting down the Catholics because some Catholics > have bombed abortion clinics. Agreed. Many prominent Catholics have publicly declared that abortion is murder. Applying the same level of integrity as has been applied in criminal trials of technical people, this could be seen as incitement. What is insidious about charging people with organizational involvement is that it bypasses the criminal justice system. The organization itself doesn't stand trial. At the same time the members are not charged with any specfic crime. Thus, the trial can consist of little more than innuendo and the defendant stands a good chance of conviction. It is very close to simple political repression. > The Jews lacked their equivalent of a Reformation, the Lutheran and > Calvinist revolution in thinking which laid the groundwork for the > modern age. And instead of moving on, embracing the future, many of > them retreated to a desert land they thought of as their historic > homeland, never mind that more Polish blood flowed through the veins > of Jews born in Krakow than blood from their ancestors who fled or > otherwise left Palestine 1500 or more years ago. But aren't you the one bringing up the racial purity theory here? I've never known a Jewish person, and I've known many, who spent any time worrying about the genetic purity of their Jewish descent. Presumably they exist somewhere, but the breed is rare. Some Jewish people do seem to have long discussions about "What is a Jew (sic)?", but they do not seem to be genetically driven. I am having a little difficulty understanding what you mean by "embracing the future". This strikes me as a straw man, but perhaps I'm not getting your point. The Jewish community, even the Jewish religious community, does not seem to have had any problem accepting scientific discoveries, which one could describe as "embracing the future". Many Christians, Protestant and otherwise, have had serious problems in this department. For example, the theory of evolution was accepted without a fuss. Even in Jewish religious schools, the theory of evolution is taught. I think the idea behind going to Palestine and founding Israel was to find a way to not be murdered any more. After over 1000 years of abuse ending with 2/3 of the group being killed, it doesn't seem unreasonable that many of the survivors would conclude that it was unsafe to live among Europeans. My guess is that they figured they could just sort of push the Arabs aside and after a bit of fuss, everybody would get used to the idea and they'd have a country where they would have full political rights and even own land without fears of confiscation. Most peoples have done exactly the same thing at some time or other. And, there was already a sizeable Jewish population in Palestine. Do you believe that Jewish activities along these lines are more offensive than similar activities by many other people? If so, do you find them offensive because they are so recent, or is it just the unpleasant fact that American money is contributing to it? > I don't care too much if Arabs and Jews are killing each other, but > I hate like hell to see taxpayer money and armaments shipped to > ZOG-Occupied Palestine to help kill more Arabs and expand ZOG > borders. Agreed. I have better things to do with my money, too. Here's my somewhat uninformed take on the Middle East: Anything the U.S. is doing there is going to be related to oil. Support of Israel gives the U.S. cards to play with the oil producing countries. If the oil producing companies are uncooperative, Israel gets new cool weapons. If they are cooperative, then the U.S. news media start talking about the bad things the Israelis are doing. When the oil producing countries complain, the answer is probably that the Jewish lobby is so powerful that the U.S. has to support the Israelis. I believe that the Jewish lobby is powerful only to the extent that they are allowed to be. If they stood in the way of U.S. policy to any significant extent, they would be curtailed. Israel also plays a useful role for the oil producing governments - they help keep the population unified. A great deal of money flowing into the area does not benefit the populations of the countries there. For example, half of adult male Saudis are illiterate. Keeping those people focused on Israel keeps them from noticing where the money is going. Also, the rulers can accuse detractors of being Israeli spies. I do not think U.S. support for Israel has much to do with post-Holocaust compassion or with the desire to support a democracy in the Middle East or with the Jewish lobby. > And I am offended--but also amused--by the irony of European Jews > recapitulating Hitler's "lebensraum" and "Endlosung" solutions so > soon after WW II ended. Yes, Jacobo Timerman ("Prisoner Without a Name, Cell Without a Number") said the same thing a few years after he fled to Israel from Argentina. He made himself somewhat unpopular by questioning the propriety of the invasion of Lebanon. Some Israelis felt he was ungrateful. Sort of interesting because the original idea was that everybody Jewish could consider themselves Israeli and therefore gratitude would not be in order. (A comparison could be made to the Palestinian situation with respect to their alleged brother Arabs.) Anyway, there is probably a well understood psychological phenomenon at work. Once somebody is abused, they will tend to find somebody else, hopefully subordinate, to mistreat. I've wondered whether this effect isn't related to explain Henry Kissinger's criminality. Kissinger lost two relatives in the Holocaust, but in his political career he associated with and backed people with less than pristine credentials. For example, Nixon had connections to war criminals associated with the Rumanian Iron Guard. The military regimes Kissinger encouraged in South America tended to have people with a certain admiration for the Third Reich. The policies pursued in Southeast Asia bear certain similarities to those of the Nazis. Timerman, incidentally, described himself as Zionist. >> People carp about Tim, but I'd like to see anybody try to do one >> Tim May quality post every day for two weeks. > Thanks, even if you're a Jew-lover. Literally the truth, although not exclusively. ;-) From a3495 at cotse.com Sat Sep 1 13:53:31 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 16:53:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: News: "U.S. May Help Chinese Evade Net Censorship" Message-ID: Tim Wrote: >> On Friday, August 31, 2001, at 11:43 AM, Faustine wrote: > >> Consistent with your misconception about big computers being useful for >> brute-force cryptanalyis, > > I never said that and you know it. Nice troll, though. >You did indeed. Several times you alluded to what big and powerful >computers the NSA must have, the better to blow our house down. When it >was pointed out to you the nature of brute-forcing a big key, and how >useless computers are, you seemed not to get the point. Oh, well that might have a little something to do with the fact that I never made the point that brute-forcing keys was the way big and powerful NSA computers are going to blow our house down, mightn't it. The fact that "brute-forcing keys" was the only thing you could think of when you saw my phrase "interesting possibilities for cryptographic applications" and then chose to fixate on proving what a damn poopy head whippersnapper I am instead of deigning to bother over what methods I meant to refer to is indicative of your own limitations, not mine. ~Faustine. From ericm at lne.com Sat Sep 1 17:25:36 2001 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 17:25:36 -0700 Subject: The Privacy/Untraceability Sweet Spot In-Reply-To: <3B8FE4A7.20004.CBABBDB@localhost>; from georgemw@speakeasy.net on Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 07:25:27PM -0700 References: ; <20010831170705.A15046@slack.lne.com> <3B8FE4A7.20004.CBABBDB@localhost> Message-ID: <20010901172536.A19358@slack.lne.com> On Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 07:25:27PM -0700, georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote: > On 31 Aug 2001, at 17:07, Eric Murray wrote: > > > The various CDRs should deal with this-- they keep track of > > which Message-IDs they have posted, and don't post messages > > that they have already posted. They do pass those messages > > on to the other CDRs that they peer with though, so by posting > > two messages you're adding to the number of messages > > that get sent on the "backbone"... > > > > Is it possible to set things up so that duplicate messages are > filtered out based on a message digest rather than a message ID? Just about anything is possible. > I'm dumb as a post and have no clue how message IDs are > generated in the first place, but it seems to this simpleton that > any hash function on the message body would be guarenteed to > catch duplicate messages. Message-ID is generated by the originating MTA (that's the ISP's sendmail or whatever program they're using to send mail). It's supposed to be unique-- it's often something like 200109012124.f81LObL18955 at slack.lne.com where there's a date component (200109012124) and the sending machine's name, so that it's unique in a global namespace. Of course there's nothing keeping someone from sending mail with whatever message-id they want, assuming that they can control their sending MTA. The reason that it's used for identifying already posted messages is that procmail, which the CDR system is based on, has a nice built-in hook for keeping a message-id database and identifying duplicates. Eric From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Sep 1 15:54:05 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 17:54:05 -0500 Subject: The History Place - Triumph of Hitler Message-ID: <3B91670D.249AC7D5@ssz.com> http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/triumph/tr-fuehrer.htm -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From georgemw at speakeasy.net Sat Sep 1 17:55:11 2001 From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 17:55:11 -0700 Subject: The Privacy/Untraceability Sweet Spot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3B9120FF.6554.118E74B2@localhost> Having read Tim's reply already, I'll confine myself to a point he didn't address. On 1 Sep 2001, at 22:30, Nomen Nescio wrote: > It's true that this does not directly impact the design. But we can't > ignore the question, is this a market we want to pursue. For example, > there are any number of papers on key escrow systems, or "fair" electronic > cash (where only the government can trace it). Legitimate businesses > might well be willing to use such systems. So there is profit to be made, > all the more profit since the government is less likely to hassle you. Note, however, that this IS a question of design, not merely one of marketing. The system doesn't know "terrorists" from "freedom fighters". The system doesn't know pornographers from Falun Gongers. A system does (or at least could) know clients who want to send megabytes of data from ones who only want top send a few bits. It does know clients who insist on real-time or near real-time transmission from ones who would accept substantial transmission delay times. It knows clients who insist their system be free and trivial to use from those willing to spend a fair amount and go to a certain degree of effort to make damn sure they're doing things right. It knows the difference between broadcasting and person-to-person communication. And it knows whether clients are willing to accept the idea that some "trusted third party" could compromise their identity, or whether they trust no one. > Would you say that discussions of such technologies would and should be > encouraged on the cypherpunks list? Certainly they should be "discussed", if only to point out what's wrong with them, or speculate how the escrow mechanism might be defeated or compromised. >That it doesn't matter whether this > helps us in or long-term goal or not? > Long-term consequences are notoriously hard to predict. For example, it's quite possible somebody who develops and implements a digital cash system with some sort of key escrow mechanism might be doing the world a big favor, since cloning it and cutting out the escrow part might be a lot easier than developing a similar system from scratch. Or maybe not, as I said, hard to say. > Surely not. Morality plays a part in everything we do. We have goals > in common. We should structure our efforts so that they are in accordance > with our highest goals. Having principles is nothing to be ashamed of. > We all have them, and we should be proud of that. > OK. Freedom=good. Tyranny=bad. Now that we've agreed on moral principles, time to move on. George From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Sep 1 16:04:48 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 18:04:48 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Moral Crypto In-Reply-To: <200109012124.f81LOlf18960@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Sep 2001, Tim May wrote: > What can I say? You clearly don't understand: > > -- how remailer _networks_ work (Hint: nested encryption...all the first > remailer sees when he opens a message is an encrypted message he can't > read and instructions on which remailer to send it to next, and so on. > Only if most/all remailers collaborate can the route be followed by > them.) You can't make, or assume this as a universal. It may be that by using crypto on the first leg it sets flags off for Mallet. The data may have to be sent out in stego or some other format. The utility of inter-anon remialer crypto using a seperate layer does provide major utility with respect to stopping further identity leaks as well as breaking simple traffic analysis. However, if the remailers require any sort of 'instructions' then these must be in the clear, or at least use a key set different than the user/remailer. These leak information in that initial connection. If they have universal access to the network then some level of analysis can be executed without collaboration from any of the remailers. -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From gbroiles at well.com Sat Sep 1 18:21:42 2001 From: gbroiles at well.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 18:21:42 -0700 Subject: News: 'U.S. May Help Chinese Evade Net Censorship' In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20010831183757.03a22020@pop3.norton.antivirus> <5.1.0.14.2.20010831183757.03a22020@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010901180856.03e935e0@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 03:19 PM 9/1/2001 -0400, Faustine wrote: > > > > When you talk about "collaborating" and ZKS selling beta software to > > the NSA, are you saying you've got information that ZKS gave the NSA > > access to more information than the general public got, and/or that > > the NSA got their access or information meaningfully earlier than the > > general public? > >Actually, it would be far more more informative to get them to explain >exactly what happened instead of relying on third-party empty hearsay and >hot air from me, since honestly that's all I've got. But I'm sure there are >a lot of reasons--some of them contractural--you'll never hear the whole >story. Especially given that you'll never get anything more than loose talk >from the other side. Well, if all you've got is hearsay and hot air, then I think it's unfair to tag them with words like "collaborator" or suggest that they're not trustworthy - those are pretty serious allegations to make. I'm aware of examples of cryptosystems and companies which were compromised by intelligence agencies - and also aware of baseless FUD and conspiracy theories spun against uncompromised software unfairly. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at well.com "We have found and closed the thing you watch us with." -- New Delhi street kids From mshoe200 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 1 19:59:14 2001 From: mshoe200 at yahoo.com ((na) mshoe) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 19:59:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: my name and address Message-ID: <20010902025914.30306.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com> Every now and again I do a search of my name just to see what comes up and I recently saw a post of my name an address at this url http://www.shmoo.com/mail/cypherpunks/may01/msg00077.shtml. I was wondering if you could please erase this for two reasons, one I do not live at that address anymore and two I stopped sending the chain letter 3 months ago, so there is no use for my personal information to be on the net anymore. Thank-You Mitch __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sat Sep 1 20:02:10 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 20:02:10 -0700 Subject: News: "U.S. May Help Chinese Evade Net Censorship" In-Reply-To: <3B8F5D34.21690.2D03FB9@localhost> References: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010901195611.02f88990@idiom.com> At 09:47 AM 08/31/2001 -0700, jamesd at echeque.com wrote: > -- >On 30 Aug 2001, at 14:52, Faustine wrote: > > And as long as you have companies like ZeroKnowledge who are > > willing/gullible/greedy/just plain fucking stupid enough to > > sell their betas to the NSA, you never will. > >There is nothing wrong with selling betas to the NSA. I make my >crypto source code available to the NSA, and to everyone else. >Everyone should do this. Anyone that fails to do that is up to >no good. The difference between Real Open Source and giving copies to the NSA is that Real Open Source users will often send YOU the bug reports instead of just keeping them to themselves :-) But yes, if you're giving away free betas, the NSA can have them too. And if you're doing the "$49 for 5 nyms" deal, they can buy them too, whether they admit that they're doing it or whether you just get orders from the Maryland Procurement Office or a credit card belonging to R.Canine, Columbia MD. The more interesting question is NSA's access to the server software. If they want it badly enough, and don't want to admit it, there's probably some small ISP with In-Q-It funding out there. 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This email is sent to you as this email address is associated with the opt-in member "oddodoodo" on http://adultfriendfinder.com. To remove yourself from the mailing list, please log into Adultfriendfinder.com with your handle and password. *************************************************************** From nobody at dizum.com Sat Sep 1 11:30:04 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 20:30:04 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Anonymous Posting Message-ID: Tim May wrote: > I don't recall the context, but I don't have any such friends or > even acquaintances. Even those I know on the Far Right don't want to > kill _all_ Jews, just the pesky freedom-stealing ones, and the > millions who form the Zionist Occupation Government in the Zionist > Entity of ZOG-Occupied Palestine. This was the remark I had in mind: Tim May wrote on August 16, 2001: > (I know folks who think Judaism is in fact far worse, and who hope > and pray for the day when 4 million Jews in Occupied Palestine are > rounded up and liquidated. I take no position on this... I see now that "all Jews" mischaracterized your statement. My apologies. > Add nerve gases and biological agents to the mix over the next > several years. Cuts both ways, of course. If the past is any guide, mostly the innocent would die. > And I won't shed a tear, as those who left New York and Oslo and > Berlin and Phoenix to go to some tiny patch of land which they claim > YHWH the Terrible granted to the sons of a desert minor > potentate--this all revealed in a hash dream by an old man, > allegedly--well, they were fools in 1948 to kick Arabs off of their > farms and out of their homes. The Jews will suffer mightily. Which > might be all they really want, oy vey! I've known very few Jewish people who believe God gave them Israel, but it clearly has something to do with why that particular patch of land was chosen. Maybe it's the Schelling point of Zionism. The area is symbolically loaded for Jewish people, but the downside is that it's important to other people as well. Most Israelis that I've known see the religiously based Zionists as crazies, especially the ones from the U.S. Saying that Israelis are a certain way because there are people in Israel with certain views is as reasonable as saying that Jim Bell is a good guide to the cypherpunks. The exact nature of Zionism seems hard to pin down, sort of like defining a "cypherpunk". It is clear that many Zionists are not religious. > And I know many people who support, as I do of course, the right of > Aryan Nation(s) to do their thing without lawsuits from offended > Jews and liberals. Last I heard, Aryan Nation(s) was not building > any gas chambers. Shutting down the "organization" due to, for > example, the murder of Allan Berg in Denver makes no more moral or > legal sense than shutting down the Catholics because some Catholics > have bombed abortion clinics. Agreed. Many prominent Catholics have publicly declared that abortion is murder. Applying the same level of integrity as has been applied in criminal trials of technical people, this could be seen as incitement. What is insidious about charging people with organizational involvement is that it bypasses the criminal justice system. The organization itself doesn't stand trial. At the same time the members are not charged with any specfic crime. Thus, the trial can consist of little more than innuendo and the defendant stands a good chance of conviction. It is very close to simple political repression. > The Jews lacked their equivalent of a Reformation, the Lutheran and > Calvinist revolution in thinking which laid the groundwork for the > modern age. And instead of moving on, embracing the future, many of > them retreated to a desert land they thought of as their historic > homeland, never mind that more Polish blood flowed through the veins > of Jews born in Krakow than blood from their ancestors who fled or > otherwise left Palestine 1500 or more years ago. But aren't you the one bringing up the racial purity theory here? I've never known a Jewish person, and I've known many, who spent any time worrying about the genetic purity of their Jewish descent. Presumably they exist somewhere, but the breed is rare. Some Jewish people do seem to have long discussions about "What is a Jew (sic)?", but they do not seem to be genetically driven. I am having a little difficulty understanding what you mean by "embracing the future". This strikes me as a straw man, but perhaps I'm not getting your point. The Jewish community, even the Jewish religious community, does not seem to have had any problem accepting scientific discoveries, which one could describe as "embracing the future". Many Christians, Protestant and otherwise, have had serious problems in this department. For example, the theory of evolution was accepted without a fuss. Even in Jewish religious schools, the theory of evolution is taught. I think the idea behind going to Palestine and founding Israel was to find a way to not be murdered any more. After over 1000 years of abuse ending with 2/3 of the group being killed, it doesn't seem unreasonable that many of the survivors would conclude that it was unsafe to live among Europeans. My guess is that they figured they could just sort of push the Arabs aside and after a bit of fuss, everybody would get used to the idea and they'd have a country where they would have full political rights and even own land without fears of confiscation. Most peoples have done exactly the same thing at some time or other. And, there was already a sizeable Jewish population in Palestine. Do you believe that Jewish activities along these lines are more offensive than similar activities by many other people? If so, do you find them offensive because they are so recent, or is it just the unpleasant fact that American money is contributing to it? > I don't care too much if Arabs and Jews are killing each other, but > I hate like hell to see taxpayer money and armaments shipped to > ZOG-Occupied Palestine to help kill more Arabs and expand ZOG > borders. Agreed. I have better things to do with my money, too. Here's my somewhat uninformed take on the Middle East: Anything the U.S. is doing there is going to be related to oil. Support of Israel gives the U.S. cards to play with the oil producing countries. If the oil producing companies are uncooperative, Israel gets new cool weapons. If they are cooperative, then the U.S. news media start talking about the bad things the Israelis are doing. When the oil producing countries complain, the answer is probably that the Jewish lobby is so powerful that the U.S. has to support the Israelis. I believe that the Jewish lobby is powerful only to the extent that they are allowed to be. If they stood in the way of U.S. policy to any significant extent, they would be curtailed. Israel also plays a useful role for the oil producing governments - they help keep the population unified. A great deal of money flowing into the area does not benefit the populations of the countries there. For example, half of adult male Saudis are illiterate. Keeping those people focused on Israel keeps them from noticing where the money is going. Also, the rulers can accuse detractors of being Israeli spies. I do not think U.S. support for Israel has much to do with post-Holocaust compassion or with the desire to support a democracy in the Middle East or with the Jewish lobby. > And I am offended--but also amused--by the irony of European Jews > recapitulating Hitler's "lebensraum" and "Endlosung" solutions so > soon after WW II ended. Yes, Jacobo Timerman ("Prisoner Without a Name, Cell Without a Number") said the same thing a few years after he fled to Israel from Argentina. He made himself somewhat unpopular by questioning the propriety of the invasion of Lebanon. Some Israelis felt he was ungrateful. Sort of interesting because the original idea was that everybody Jewish could consider themselves Israeli and therefore gratitude would not be in order. (A comparison could be made to the Palestinian situation with respect to their alleged brother Arabs.) Anyway, there is probably a well understood psychological phenomenon at work. Once somebody is abused, they will tend to find somebody else, hopefully subordinate, to mistreat. I've wondered whether this effect isn't related to explain Henry Kissinger's criminality. Kissinger lost two relatives in the Holocaust, but in his political career he associated with and backed people with less than pristine credentials. For example, Nixon had connections to war criminals associated with the Rumanian Iron Guard. The military regimes Kissinger encouraged in South America tended to have people with a certain admiration for the Third Reich. The policies pursued in Southeast Asia bear certain similarities to those of the Nazis. Timerman, incidentally, described himself as Zionist. >> People carp about Tim, but I'd like to see anybody try to do one >> Tim May quality post every day for two weeks. > Thanks, even if you're a Jew-lover. Literally the truth, although not exclusively. ;-) From adnotice at aol.com Sat Sep 1 17:40:08 2001 From: adnotice at aol.com (adnotice at aol.com) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 20:40:08 -0400 Subject: A message to cypherpunks@toad.com Message-ID: <200109020040.f820e8A20368@mail.karabin.com> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Choose Between 16 BIGGEST Adult Hardcore Porn Sites ! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- http://www.vividvip.com/partners/1011390/xx/super.html ONLY 1.49$ 3-DAY TRIAL ACCESS * Nineteen How about HORNY SCHOOLGIRLS Fucking Sucking and Swallowing Your CUM. Well this is whats in store for you at NineTeen. http://home.vividvip.com/cgi-bin/track.cgi?1011390_nt * Secret Celebs We've got all the photos the stars never wanted you to see. We expose their filthiest secrets. UNCENSORED SEX SCENE PICS ! 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Performing the wildest acts EVER CAUGHT ON FILM ! http://home.vividvip.com/cgi-bin/track.cgi?1011390_vv -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Choose Between 16 BIGGEST Adult Hardcore Porn Sites ! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- http://www.vividvip.com/partners/1011390/xx/super.html ONLY 1.49$ 3-DAY TRIAL ACCESS This message was sent to cypherpunks at toad.com. If you do not wish to receive more emails from me, just click on the link below. http://click-to-remove.com at 3520598153/remove.cgi From a3495 at cotse.com Sat Sep 1 17:50:10 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 20:50:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Using supercomputers to break interesting ciphers Message-ID: Faustine wrote: Tim wrote: (snip) >You are now backpedaling furiously away from your "common to newbies" >claim that fast computers might be used to break ciphers. Here's a chunk >of dialog from an August 8 post of yours: >(comments after ">" are from Tim) > >Except when was the last time you heard of a Cypherpunks-interesting >>cipher being broken with _any_ amount of computer crunching? >"Since when did people stop trying? The last time I heard a researcher >>talk about trying to break a Cypherpunks-interesting cipher was last >>Thursday." >This, and similar comments you made about the Sandia and IBM >supercomputers, clearly imply you think one of the uses of these >supercomputers is to "try" to break what I called >Cypherpunks-interesting ciphers. If I had known that to you "computer crunching" is synonymous with "brute forcing large keys" I certainly would have expressed myself differently. >Many who are exposed to crypto to the first time, and who haven't >thought about the issue of factoring large numbers, simply "assume" that >a worthwhile goal is to "try" ("Since when did people stop trying?") to >break such ciphers with faster computers. >(To be sure, there are interesting projects on faster factoring methods, >better quadratic sieves, searches for Mersenne primes, all that good >number theory stuff. Some of it is even being done at Sandia. But this >is a far cry from the common belief that Cypherpunks-interesting ciphers >may fall to attacks with mere supercomputers. Do the math on what a >trillion such Sandia computers could do if they ran for a billion >years...then realize there are keys already in use today which cannot be >attacked by brute-force (or probably any other direct means) with all of >the computer power that the universe could ever support. Mind-boggling, >but I realized this via some calculations just after starting to look >closely at RSA.) >You are now backpedalling, claiming you never meant this. Backpedalling has nothing to do with it. "trying to break Cypehrpunks- interesting ciphers" does not equal "using supercomputers to brute-force large keys." "Interesting cryptograhic applications" does not equal "brute- forcing large keys". Why is this so difficult. >Similar to the way you claimed "if someone else is convinced it's >interesting enough to be willing to foot the power bill (as I had >anticipated would be the case)," well AFTER I posted an article pointing >out that the power bill alone for running older Pentiums and G3s would >pay for faster new CPUs to make the old DIY machines a waste of time. >Fact is, you HADN'T "anticipated" this...you saw my calculations of >watts and MIPS and only _then_ did you retroactively "anticipate" that >power concerns make such arrays of old machines a lose. Check the >archives. The "as I had anticipated would be the case" refers to being allowed to build it in someone else's facility, on their dime. I never said the first thing about having done any of the calculations mentioned in your post. It's their facility, I anticipate they find it interesting enough to let me build it there, they foot the power bill. What's so tricky about that. In fact, I meant for the passage to serve as a sort of explanation of the circumstances in which power costs weren't enough of a central issue for me to have considered them. The end of the sentence you omitted, "where's the downside?" might make this clearer. Obviously, not clear enough. >When some adds a gratuitous "As I had anticipated would be the >case" under these circumstances we know we are in the presence of a faker. You interpreted it as referring to what you thought it ought to in order to bolster whatever view you want to have of me. Nothing new. ~Faustine. From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Sep 1 18:54:50 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 20:54:50 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Moral Crypto In-Reply-To: <75e42bd0997f974a89005d24b4d14a4e@dizum.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Sep 2001, Nomen Nescio wrote: > Again, the entry from non-anonymous into anonymous networks is visible. Which is where distributed systems like Plan 9 come into play. By being completely distributed and (at least in theory) encrypted at the network layer the 'vulnerability' becomes connecting to the network. Of sourse this still leaves the question of keys and their management as a 'entry' vulnerability. -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Sat Sep 1 21:22:31 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 21:22:31 -0700 Subject: Moral Crypto Message-ID: <200109020422.f824MVb42895@mailserver1c.hushmail.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 5655 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Sat Sep 1 21:28:24 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 21:28:24 -0700 Subject: News: "U.S. May Help Chinese Evade Net Censorship" In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20010901195611.02f88990@idiom.com> Message-ID: <200109020432.f824WMf20588@slack.lne.com> On Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 08:02 PM, Bill Stewart wrote: > But yes, if you're giving away free betas, the NSA can have them too. > And if you're doing the "$49 for 5 nyms" deal, they can buy them too, > whether they admit that they're doing it or whether you just get > orders from the Maryland Procurement Office or a credit card > belonging to R.Canine, Columbia MD. Excepting that all true Cypherpunks would know that Gen. Canine died 30 years ago. Of course, on the Internet nobody knows you're a dead DIRNSA. --Tim May From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sat Sep 1 21:46:47 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 21:46:47 -0700 Subject: stump go boom, and keeping kanooks at bay In-Reply-To: <3B902A58.9E61C598@black.org> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010901214230.02f974f0@idiom.com> At 05:22 PM 08/31/2001 -0700, Subcommander Bob wrote: >At 11:17 AM 8/31/01 -0400, Duncan Frissell wrote: > >Note that the unlicensed private use of explosives may be legal in >America > >depending on time and place. Need any stumps cleared? > >Last week, my local (SoCal) Home Depot had Grant's stump remover, which >appeared to be homogenous small spheres and KNO3 was mentioned >on the ingredients list :-) Stump remover doesn't go boom, it goes fizzle fizzle smoke smoke smoke, for a long time until your stump has burned away down into the roots. You might be able to extract some KNO3 from the other gunk, but there're probably better ways to get your pyrotechnical supplies. From mailingmanager2001 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 1 21:56:41 2001 From: mailingmanager2001 at yahoo.com (Global Marketing Group) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 21:56:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Global Marketing Tool - Global Toll Free Service Message-ID: <20010902045641.A5F1312F106@smtp.infinex.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 11124 bytes Desc: not available URL: From a3495 at cotse.com Sat Sep 1 19:15:29 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 22:15:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: News: 'U.S. May Help Chinese Evade Net Censorship' In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010901180856.03e935e0@pop3.norton.antivirus> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20010901180856.03e935e0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: > At 03:19 PM 9/1/2001 -0400, Faustine wrote: >> > >> > When you talk about "collaborating" and ZKS selling beta software to >> > the NSA, are you saying you've got information that ZKS gave the >> > NSA access to more information than the general public got, and/or >> > that the NSA got their access or information meaningfully earlier >> > than the general public? >> >>Actually, it would be far more more informative to get them to explain >>exactly what happened instead of relying on third-party empty hearsay >>and hot air from me, since honestly that's all I've got. But I'm sure >>there are a lot of reasons--some of them contractural--you'll never >>hear the whole story. Especially given that you'll never get anything >>more than loose talk from the other side. > > Well, if all you've got is hearsay and hot air, then I think it's > unfair to tag them with words like "collaborator" or suggest that > they're not trustworthy - those are pretty serious allegations to > make. I'm aware of examples of cryptosystems and companies which were > compromised by intelligence agencies - and also aware of baseless FUD > and conspiracy theories spun against uncompromised software unfairly. Fair enough, point well taken. And frankly, anything said on this by someone who hasn't putting their own real personal credibility on the line is going to come across like FUD anyway. Even asking for explanations is a bit fuddy. When I find a more measured and responsible way to vent about what's pissing me off, I certainly will. ~Faustine. From nobody at dizum.com Sat Sep 1 13:30:09 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 22:30:09 +0200 (CEST) Subject: The Privacy/Untraceability Sweet Spot Message-ID: On 31 Aug 2001, at 12:13, georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote: > On 31 Aug 2001, at 19:50, Nomen Nescio wrote: > > This means that the operators > > choose to whom they will market and sell their services. > > Here I disagree completely. I think in a properly designed > anonymity system the users will be, well, anonymous, and > it should be impossible to tell any more about them than that they > pay their bills on time. Certainly most potential users would balk at > requirements that they prove who they were and justify their desire > to use such a system, since that would tend to defeat the purpose. Yes and no. The users aren't all that anonymous, or they wouldn't need anonymous technologies, would they? The remailer network sees where this message originates. If you use Zero Knowledge software, their network knows exactly who is using it at any time. If a digital cash bank came into existence, payments transferred into the digital system from outside would largely be from identified sources. Nevertheless it's true that the operators would probably not find it cost effective to try to identify every single customer. (Although ZKS will cancel your nym if you spam with it.) The real issue is the clause above about "market and sell". This was the original point raised by Tim May: what markets do we select? His whiteboard exercise teaches that you need to identify, select and target particular markets which make sense. And if you care about the world you are creating, that's where the moral issue comes in. > I don't think it serves > any purpose to discuss who constitute "valiant freedom fighters > resisting a tyrannical government" and who are "bloody terrorist > fanatics attempting to overthrow a benign legitimate government > and replace it wth a worse one" in this forum. We may have strong > opinions on this matter as individuals, but it is completely > unreasonable to expect us to come to any kind of consensus as a > group. Nonsense. Most participants in this forum DO share common philosophical goals: the preservation and enhancement of individual freedom via technological means. This is our common heritage. People make moral judgements every single day on this list based on exactly this framework. And it is this moral view which tells us that bin Laden and his terrorist groups are not the market which we should target in order to advance these goals. > Nor is it necessarily beneficial to do so. Would a system > useful to the "virtuous" seperatist Kurds in Iraq be different in any > technical way from a system used by the "evil" seperatist Kurds > in Turkey? No, probably not. However the world seems strangely short of virtuous freedom fighters right now. In fact "freedom fighters" are probably not an appropriate target market for cypherpunks. They may be well funded but most of them are wedded to violence. If they get into power they're not going to make things any better. James Donald made this point: few countries are undergoing true popular revolutions. It would be better to target technologies that would benefit groups where there is a large, oppressed minority, people who just want to be left alone. Unfortunately, almost by definition, oppressed minorities tend to be poor. So it is a hard problem to do this profitably. > > It is important to identify markets which will advance the cause rather > > than set it back. Tim May made a good start on this in his earlier > > posting. Those who reject the idea of judging groups and markets by > > their morality are the ones who are missing the point. > > Wrong. When discussing design of a system, it makes sense to > limit discussion to parameters relevant to system design. How > much individuals might be willing to pay to protect their privacy, > how great of injuries they might suffer if their privacy is > compromised, is relevant to system design. Why they > want privacy, whether you or I as individuals would think of them > as "good guys" or "bad guys", really isn't. It's true that this does not directly impact the design. But we can't ignore the question, is this a market we want to pursue. For example, there are any number of papers on key escrow systems, or "fair" electronic cash (where only the government can trace it). Legitimate businesses might well be willing to use such systems. So there is profit to be made, all the more profit since the government is less likely to hassle you. Would you say that discussions of such technologies would and should be encouraged on the cypherpunks list? That it doesn't matter whether this helps us in or long-term goal or not? Surely not. Morality plays a part in everything we do. We have goals in common. We should structure our efforts so that they are in accordance with our highest goals. Having principles is nothing to be ashamed of. We all have them, and we should be proud of that. From jamesd at echeque.com Sat Sep 1 22:46:28 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 22:46:28 -0700 Subject: The Privacy/Untraceability Sweet Spot In-Reply-To: References: <3B909D32.158.2FBB72@localhost> Message-ID: <3B916544.30458.3895B6@localhost> James A. Donald: -- James A. Donald: > > Hitler won an election. Elections are not revolutions. Jim Choate > The election alone didn't make him Fuhrer The fact that a majority voted for totalitarianism and plurality voted for Hitler did make him fuhrer. And regardless of what made him Fuhrer, it was not a revolution. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG RpelMIrX2K4QW9RrV+FQSoasyeDmQ2AZiYJRqChp 4ZIDF43ciehEL5FHHjzW8DkYtOVIkC89UFJ3r8Y4c From jamesd at echeque.com Sat Sep 1 22:53:38 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 22:53:38 -0700 Subject: Jim Bell sentenced to 10 years in prison In-Reply-To: References: <3B901607.23698.5A2392D@localhost> Message-ID: <3B9166F2.17508.3F230B@localhost> -- On 1 Sep 2001, at 16:12, Faustine wrote: > All I'm saying is that if the feds are doing their job well, > they won't stick out at all. Fortunately it does not seem very common for government employees to do their jobs well. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG vuP3Scaq1rspcZvWRBMeyrfXAZy+ZdakxEmYzJIX 4AcwoF+RVx3EHZrq58+Pvvj6aJxojQXwE14EGbM4G From jamesd at echeque.com Sat Sep 1 22:53:38 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 22:53:38 -0700 Subject: cryptosocialismo In-Reply-To: <002b01c13336$bbe6cc00$327da6cb@mattd> Message-ID: <3B9166F2.23300.3F2301@localhost> -- On 2 Sep 2001, at 8:37, mattd wrote: > cryptoanarchy aka cryptocapitalism seems to be in crisis.Should > the hardcore libertarian individualist tap into a new source of > fire?During the spanish civil war/revolution,in anarchist > controlled areas,individuals were free to cultivate individual > lots and some did.After a while most drifted to the collectives That story commie fiction, and also completely irrelevant. If anyone wants a rerun of the debate about the failure of anarcho socialism, look up http://www.jim.com/cat/ --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG rsxWWWvR7ZUtdGlLT31y0OUYnplTsPfmPT+1tYyk 490OyRsnLUu2Nr7XRFx9rZl59ey2bFWTsoadZDd3A From jamesd at echeque.com Sat Sep 1 22:53:38 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 22:53:38 -0700 Subject: Jim Bell sentenced to 10 years in prison In-Reply-To: References: <3B901607.23698.5A2392D@localhost> Message-ID: <3B9166F2.32736.3F230B@localhost> -- On 1 Sep 2001, at 16:12, Faustine wrote: > All I'm saying is that if the feds are doing their job well, > they won't stick out at all. Smells like a witch hunt. Fortunately government employees seldom do their jobs well. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG VMG1ETupIefAXUXhriXMx/jYuZ/GAkBiR2bp0dam 4j11sKNzaPkhkV9Dcny7kqNAWJLgxx2fb75bC3eBw From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Sep 1 21:07:25 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 23:07:25 -0500 (CDT) Subject: The Privacy/Untraceability Sweet Spot In-Reply-To: <3B9120FF.6554.118E74B2@localhost> Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Sep 2001 georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote: > OK. Freedom=good. Tyranny=bad. Now that we've agreed on > moral principles, time to move on. Unfortunately it is neither that simple in principle or practice. Absolute freedom is clearly bad, especially the first psycho you meet. And tyranny isn't necessarily bad, consider the tyranny of social intercourse. Um, wait a second. Aren't those related?... -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From tcmay at got.net Sat Sep 1 23:19:43 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 23:19:43 -0700 Subject: How strong Can I? In-Reply-To: <007401c1338c$132ae1e0$28279eac@computer> Message-ID: <200109020624.f826ODf21066@slack.lne.com> On Sunday, September 2, 2001, at 01:44 AM, Dave wrote: > Im writing a toy for personal use that i may give away sooner or later, > are > there limits on how strong i can make the crypto max key length for > personal, > use for free distrubtion inside the us? Not sure on the exact legalities > involved if i gave it way... Some help would be nice. > There are no restrictions whatsoever...except... -- you can't give certain kinds of crypto to Bad People (Hizbollah, Bader-Meinhof, Kurds in Turkey (OK to give to Kurds in Iraq), and so on...consult the List of Bad People). -- your program may be subject to a Secrecy Order, similar to the one that silenced the inventor of the PhasorPhone. If this happens you will not be able to disclose your invention to anyone and you may be unable to even reveal that you are under such a Secrecy Order. Other than these possibilities, go for it, dude. --Tim May From dm128 at microconnect.net Sun Sep 2 01:44:10 2001 From: dm128 at microconnect.net (Dave) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 01:44:10 -0700 Subject: How strong Can I? Message-ID: <007401c1338c$132ae1e0$28279eac@computer> Im writing a toy for personal use that i may give away sooner or later, are there limits on how strong i can make the crypto max key length for personal, use for free distrubtion inside the us? Not sure on the exact legalities involved if i gave it way... Some help would be nice. Dave From cell_phone_fun442214 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 2 00:20:50 2001 From: cell_phone_fun442214 at yahoo.com (cell_phone_fun442214 at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 02:20:50 -0500 Subject: add logos and tones to your cell phone 44221411876 Message-ID: <200207050827.g658RGa04090@mail.vrfield.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 8321 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nobody at dizum.com Sat Sep 1 18:40:42 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 03:40:42 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Moral Crypto Message-ID: <75e42bd0997f974a89005d24b4d14a4e@dizum.com> Tim May wrote: > On Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 01:30 PM, Nomen Nescio wrote: > > Yes and no. The users aren't all that anonymous, or they wouldn't need > > anonymous technologies, would they? The remailer network sees where > > this message originates. If you use Zero Knowledge software, their > > network knows exactly who is using it at any time. If a digital cash > > bank came into existence, payments transferred into the digital system > > from outside would largely be from identified sources. > > What can I say? You clearly don't understand: > > -- how remailer _networks_ work (Hint: nested encryption...all the first > remailer sees when he opens a message is an encrypted message he can't > read and instructions on which remailer to send it to next, and so on. > Only if most/all remailers collaborate can the route be followed by > them.) The fact that a given person is using the remailer network is not a secret. At least one remailer finds out every time he sends a message. The point is, the entry from the non-anonymous to the anonymous world is a vulnerability. > -- how Freedom works (Hint: They say that even they cannot know who is > using it, except in terms of network usage. Which with cover traffic, > forwarding of other traffic, dummy messages, etc., means the fact that > Alice was using the network during a period of time does not mean they > know which exit messages are hers.) You are not stating their claims accurately. ZKS does indeed have information about who is using it at any given time, if they operate any of the servers. Or at least the server operators can tell. Each user sets up a route through a chain of servers, and any given server knows exactly who is using it as the initial connection into the network. Again, the entry from non-anonymous into anonymous networks is visible. > -- blinding. (Hint: That Alice deposits money into a digital bank, and > is identified by the bank, does not mean the bank knows who received > digital money from Alice, because Alice unblinds the note before > spending it--or redeeming it.) No, but the fact that Alice transfered a certain amount of funds into the anonymous bank is visible to at least some observers. Once again, the point is that as you enter the anonymous world your entry is visible. Compare this with the original claim: "in a properly designed anonymity system the users will be, well, anonymous, and it should be impossible to tell any more about them than that they pay their bills on time." These examples illustrate the falsehood of this claim. Much more is learned about the customers as they enter the anonymous system. > > Nonsense. Most participants in this forum DO share common philosophical > > goals: the preservation and enhancement of individual freedom via > > technological means. This is our common heritage. People make moral > > judgements every single day on this list based on exactly this framework. > > And it is this moral view which tells us that bin Laden and his terrorist > > groups are not the market which we should target in order to advance > > these goals. > > How about McVeigh? How about The Real IRA? How about John Brown? How > about Patrick Henry/ How about Cuban exiles? (By the way, everyone > should know about the time an anti-Castro group blew up a Cuban > airliner. Terrorists, freedom fighters, or just a bunch who wants to be > in control?) Not everyone will agree with every specific case. But given our common philosophical heritage, list members can come to agreement with regard to most examples. The test is simple, whether these individuals advance the causes we support. As long as you're listing examples, what do you think about Osama bin Laden? Would you support efforts to market crypto technology to Islamic religious extremists? The great thing about bin Laden as an example is that we can see exactly what the consequences will be when he succeeds. With McVeigh, nobody knows for sure. But chances are it would be much the same if the militias achieved their goals: installation of a religious state. Supporting these people means helping bring about another Afghanistan, maybe right here at home next time. > > Surely not. Morality plays a part in everything we do. We have goals > > in common. We should structure our efforts so that they are in accordance > > with our highest goals. Having principles is nothing to be ashamed of. > > We all have them, and we should be proud of that. An additional point: if you were truly unconcerned with moral issues, you would have no objection to seeing discussion here about how we can use computer technology to promote government power and control. > From your words, I doubt you support the same goals I support. We'll see. If you support increasing government power, then you are correct. 25BA1A9F5B9010DD8C752EDE887E9AF3 [Cantsin Protocol No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rom keokong at hotmail.com Sat Sep 1 21:14:28 2001 From: keokong at hotmail.com (keo kong) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 04:14:28 +0000 Subject: need Message-ID: to cypherpunks I am keo and I would like to order no brand CD-R over 50000 per mounth, could you let me know about the price, I need you send me to nongkai onething if the CD-R can not use ,can I return? onething could you let me know where is your address and your phone number for me easy to connect. Please reply me as quick as possible I look forward to hearing from you. best regard keo _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Sep 2 06:37:50 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 08:37:50 -0500 (CDT) Subject: The Privacy/Untraceability Sweet Spot In-Reply-To: <3B916544.30458.3895B6@localhost> Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Sep 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote: > And regardless of what made him Fuhrer, it was not a revolution. It wasn't? They passed a law moving all the presidents power to Hitler against the constitution. Then they got the military to swear an oath to Hitler, not Germany. In other words in the space of two years they went from a democracy to a tyranny. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck... -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From mattd at useoz.com Sat Sep 1 15:37:50 2001 From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 08:37:50 +1000 Subject: cryptosocialismo Message-ID: <002b01c13336$bbe6cc00$327da6cb@mattd> cryptoanarchy aka cryptocapitalism seems to be in crisis.Should the hardcore libertarian individualist tap into a new source of fire?During the spanish civil war/revolution,in anarchist controlled areas,individuals were free to cultivate individual lots and some did.After a while most drifted to the collectives.The prospects for any revolution,let alone a libertarian socialist one seem bleak...yet,with the gulags gulping more victims everyday and a looming runaway greenhouse effect the day of the lone wolf cryptowarrior may be coming to an end.The future might be real grass roots workers control or 'tears of blood'You dont make revolutions by halves. mattd. From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Sep 2 06:43:31 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 08:43:31 -0500 (CDT) Subject: cryptosocialismo In-Reply-To: <3B9166F2.23300.3F2301@localhost> Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Sep 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote: > -- > On 2 Sep 2001, at 8:37, mattd wrote: > > cryptoanarchy aka cryptocapitalism seems to be in crisis.Should > That story commie fiction, and also completely irrelevant. If > anyone wants a rerun of the debate about the failure of anarcho > socialism, look up http://www.jim.com/cat/ crypto-anarcy <> anarcho-socialism <> crypto-capitalism -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From georgemw at speakeasy.net Sun Sep 2 09:23:10 2001 From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 09:23:10 -0700 Subject: Stealth Computing Abuses TCP Checksums In-Reply-To: <200109010538.BAA26680@world.std.com> References: Your message of "Wed, 29 Aug 2001 23:25:01 EDT." <5.0.2.1.1.20010829231620.02fa57a0@idiom.com> Message-ID: <3B91FA7E.1924.14E00A23@localhost> On 1 Sep 2001, at 1:38, Dan Geer wrote: > . "Below, we present an implementation of a parasitic computer > . using the checksum function. In order for this to occur, > . one needs to design a special message that coerces a target server > . into performing the desired computation." > > This is the same principle that underlies denial of service > attacks -- the irreducible residual vulnerability of a system > to denial of service is proportional to the amount of work (or > time) that system must do (or consume) before it can conclude > its initial authorization decision. Ironically, the more > precise and complex that authorization decision process, the > greater the amount of work that the active (initiating) side of > the connection can call on the passive side to perform. This > critically bears on protocol and application security design. > > --dan > > Since I haven't noticed anyone else point this out (apologies for my redundancy if I just somehow missed it), it's worth mentioning that the original result was more of a "gee whiz, it's interesting we can do this in principle" type of thing than an actual threat of something anybody would ever actually do. Yes, you can trick a remote host into performing calculations for you with a specially prepared message, but it requires a hell of a lot more effort to prepare the message than it would to perform the calculation yourself. George From Cathy0313 at hotmail.com Sun Sep 2 09:30:15 2001 From: Cathy0313 at hotmail.com (Cathy0313 at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 09:30:15 Subject: CONGRATULATIONS!! YOU WON!! .. Message-ID: <200109021419.HAA26138@ecotone.toad.com> You have been specially selected to qualify for the following: Premium Vacation Package and Pentium PC Giveaway To review the details of the please click on the link with the confirmation number below: http://wintrip.my163.com or http://wintrip.yes8.com Confirmation Number#Lh340 Please confirm your entry within 24 hours of receipt of this confirmation. Wishing you a fun filled vacation! If you should have any additional questions or cann't connect to the site do not hesitate to contact me direct: mailto:vacation at btamail.net.cn?subject=Help! From tcmay at got.net Sun Sep 2 09:37:03 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 09:37:03 -0700 Subject: Stealth Computing Abuses TCP Checksums In-Reply-To: <3B91FA7E.1924.14E00A23@localhost> Message-ID: <200109021641.f82Gf0f22781@slack.lne.com> On Sunday, September 2, 2001, at 09:23 AM, georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote: > On 1 Sep 2001, at 1:38, Dan Geer wrote: > >> . "Below, we present an implementation of a parasitic computer >> . using the checksum function. In order for this to occur, >> . one needs to design a special message that coerces a target >> server >> . into performing the desired computation." >> >> This is the same principle that underlies denial of service >> attacks -- the irreducible residual vulnerability of a system >> to denial of service is proportional to the amount of work (or >> time) that system must do (or consume) before it can conclude >> its initial authorization decision. Ironically, the more >> precise and complex that authorization decision process, the >> greater the amount of work that the active (initiating) side of >> the connection can call on the passive side to perform. This >> critically bears on protocol and application security design. >> >> --dan >> >> > Since I haven't noticed anyone else point this out (apologies for > my redundancy if I just somehow missed it), it's worth mentioning > that the original result was more of a "gee whiz, it's interesting we > can do this in principle" type of thing than an actual threat of > something anybody would ever actually do. Yes, you can trick a > remote host into performing calculations for you with a specially > prepared message, but it requires a hell of a lot more effort to > prepare the message than it would to perform the calculation > yourself. Why would you think this is always so? It would not take much effort to arrange a computation that consumed a lot of CPU cycles and returned a result, once one has gotten access to a remote machine. The case of the corportate employee using machines he could access to compute a screensaver/P2P job for a possible winning payoff comes to mind. Granted, he may have had permissions to access these machines, but the general point is that someone who got past these permissions could have done the same compute-intensive thing. I see no reason to believe that "it requires a hell of a lot more effort to prepare the message than it would to perform the calculation yourself." Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. --Tim May From jya at pipeline.com Sun Sep 2 09:56:06 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 09:56:06 -0700 Subject: cryptosocialismo In-Reply-To: References: <3B9166F2.23300.3F2301@localhost> Message-ID: <200109021403.KAA01313@smtp6.mindspring.com> Choate wrote: >crypto-anarcy <> anarcho-socialism <> crypto-capitalism That's part but not all. Anarchy is not an absolute, only an opposition to the prevailing archy whether capitalist, socialist, capitalistic-socialism, socialistic-capitalism, and their mealy-mouthed democratic-communistic- oligarchic-theocratic precursors, successors and variations. Anarchy is wonderfully chameleonic, which is why it is the favorite cloaking for undercover agents of the all the rest. And best, there are no leaders, only those who disavow being leaders and thereby reveal their true colors. True leaders, a contradictory oxymoron, never preen, are never courageous, never perform exceptional actions, would never call attention to themselves so ineptly, and do not exhibit exhibitionistic characteristics such as lecturing and preaching to obsequious non-followers how to follow obediently without orders being issued. At least that is what the anarchist bible commanded before it became discredited by overspin. Then came the prefixes to fix that with branding. Now those prefixtual brands get hammered, rightly so, and leftly so, so what, so easy, so ignorant. Old Time Anarchy was invented by authoritarians to entrap firebrand fools. Not much has changed. Old fools hustling the youngsters. This is not a confession merely, but a bible quote, or I forget which list this is. From jamesd at echeque.com Sun Sep 2 10:03:29 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 10:03:29 -0700 Subject: The Privacy/Untraceability Sweet Spot In-Reply-To: References: <3B916544.30458.3895B6@localhost> Message-ID: <3B9203F1.6147.865B51@localhost> -- James A. Donald: > > And regardless of what made him Fuhrer, it was not a > > revolution. Jim Choate: > It wasn't? They passed a law moving all the presidents power to > Hitler against the constitution. "They passed a law" is not a revolution, even if the law was unconstitutional, and it was far more plausibly constitutional than many recent acts of congress and recent supreme court decisions. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG sCjb3FyPkIA3ccCv1Edyms5TE8T8r5azQl1n/vTC 4ZUWu+8KwHCZrQsD98OEVKe12WiTrkmV15ORw/BkG From georgemw at speakeasy.net Sun Sep 2 10:46:57 2001 From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 10:46:57 -0700 Subject: Stealth Computing Abuses TCP Checksums In-Reply-To: <200109021641.f82Gf0f22781@slack.lne.com> References: <3B91FA7E.1924.14E00A23@localhost> Message-ID: <3B920E21.14079.152CBF20@localhost> On 2 Sep 2001, at 9:37, Tim May wrote: > > Since I haven't noticed anyone else point this out (apologies for > > my redundancy if I just somehow missed it), it's worth mentioning > > that the original result was more of a "gee whiz, it's interesting we > > can do this in principle" type of thing than an actual threat of > > something anybody would ever actually do. Yes, you can trick a > > remote host into performing calculations for you with a specially > > prepared message, but it requires a hell of a lot more effort to > > prepare the message than it would to perform the calculation > > yourself. > > > Why would you think this is always so? > Gut hunch. > It would not take much effort to arrange a computation that consumed a > lot of CPU cycles and returned a result, once one has gotten access to a > remote machine. The case of the corportate employee using machines he > could access to compute a screensaver/P2P job for a possible winning > payoff comes to mind. Granted, he may have had permissions to access > these machines, but the general point is that someone who got past these > permissions could have done the same compute-intensive thing. > I was referring to the specific type of exploit where the "parasite" is abusing the TCP checksum. I suspect the same result is likely to hold with attempts to exploit other protocols. Obviously, if an attacker "owns" your machine, that's a completely different kettle of fish. > I see no reason to believe that "it requires a hell of a lot more effort > to > prepare the message than it would to perform the calculation > yourself." > > Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. > > Right, and I suspect I have a fair idea which is which. If you can get a remote host to execute arbitrary code, with loops and branches, or to evaluate complicated functions, then it may be worth your while to do it. If all you can do is get it to add up a list of numbers, then it's almost certainly going to be easier to just do the addition yourself. If there's also a bunch of extra effort required to turn an abstract problem into a series of addition problems, the advantage of solving the problem yourself (without this intermediate step) is even greater. George > --Tim May From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Sep 2 08:49:45 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 10:49:45 -0500 Subject: SIG: CNN.com - Ultrafast wireless technology set to lift off - August 30, 2001 Message-ID: <3B925519.5989BF44@ssz.com> http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/ptech/08/30/ultrafast.wireless.idg/index.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From schear at lvcm.com Sun Sep 2 11:14:14 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 11:14:14 -0700 Subject: SIG: CNN.com - Ultrafast wireless technology set to lift off - August 30, 2001 In-Reply-To: <3B925519.5989BF44@ssz.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010902111145.03114ac8@pop3.lvcm.com> At 10:49 AM 9/2/2001 -0500, Jim Choate wrote: >http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/ptech/08/30/ultrafast.wireless.idg/index.html I've got friends at some of these companies and I feel for them. Given my experience heading the Part15 Coalition in the mid-90s and the powerful incumbent forces allied against them, I find it highly unlikely the UWB will see more than military and LE use any time soon. steve From georgemw at speakeasy.net Sun Sep 2 12:26:51 2001 From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 12:26:51 -0700 Subject: Moral Crypto In-Reply-To: <75e42bd0997f974a89005d24b4d14a4e@dizum.com> Message-ID: <3B92258B.22440.158837BA@localhost> On 2 Sep 2001, at 3:40, Nomen Nescio wrote: > The fact that a given person is using the remailer network is not a > secret. At least one remailer finds out every time he sends a message. > The point is, the entry from the non-anonymous to the anonymous world > is a vulnerability. > Sort of. The first remailer in the chain will see something like an IP address. This might or might not be enough to identify the indvidual using it in principle (gee, it's somebody posting from a public library or internet cafe) and almost certainly isn't in practice (how many remaler operators bother keeping something like a reverse DNS table on their servers). If the remailer operators decided they wanted to deny "baddies" use of their services, they would not only have to unanimously agree as to who the "baddies" are, they would also have to deny their services in all cases where the client cannot be positovely identified. Neither of which strikes me as being plausible. > > -- blinding. (Hint: That Alice deposits money into a digital bank, and > > is identified by the bank, does not mean the bank knows who received > > digital money from Alice, because Alice unblinds the note before > > spending it--or redeeming it.) > > No, but the fact that Alice transfered a certain amount of funds into > the anonymous bank is visible to at least some observers. Once again, > the point is that as you enter the anonymous world your entry is visible. > In the old style numbered swiss bank account, you give them a suitcase full of cash and you get an account number. They know who you are if the recognize you when you go in to set up the account, if not not. > Compare this with the original claim: "in a properly designed anonymity > system the users will be, well, anonymous, and it should be impossible > to tell any more about them than that they pay their bills on time." > These examples illustrate the falsehood of this claim. Much more > is learned about the customers as they enter the anonymous system. > I stand by my earlier statement. The fact that you may be identifiable at the point of entry to an anonymity system is a weakness, not a desired feature, and if it can be avoided, it should be. George From tcmay at got.net Sun Sep 2 12:34:31 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 12:34:31 -0700 Subject: Moral Crypto In-Reply-To: <3B92258B.22440.158837BA@localhost> Message-ID: <200109021938.f82JcQf23312@slack.lne.com> On Sunday, September 2, 2001, at 12:26 PM, georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote: > If the remailer operators decided they wanted to deny "baddies" > use of their services, they would not only have to unanimously > agree as to who the "baddies" are, they would also have to deny > their services in all cases where the client cannot be positovely > identified. Neither of which strikes me as being plausible. If there are many remailers, essentially zero chance. (Or if one is a remailer oneself.) The other remailers can theoretically band together as some kind of guild and reject packets from "rogue" remailers, but there are numerous practical problems. Identifying a "rogue" remailer which "allows" packets from "baddies" (e.g, from Mormons, or free speech advocates) will not be easy: the guild of do-gooders will only known a rogue packet has entered their system if they _trace_ it! Nearly all "baddie" packets exiting the system ("Down with Barney the Dinosaur!" and similar evil things) will only be detected--drum roll--when they _exit_ the system. Fat chance that N remailers around the world will proactively trace packets just so they can burn the Barney critic baddie. > I stand by my earlier statement. The fact that you may be > identifiable at the point of entry to an anonymity system is > a weakness, not a desired feature, and if it can be avoided, it > should be. > Then design such a system. "Anyone a remailer, anyone a mint" is one strong approach. --Tim May From honig at sprynet.com Sun Sep 2 15:03:30 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 15:03:30 -0700 Subject: Moral Crypto In-Reply-To: <200109021938.f82JcQf23312@slack.lne.com> References: <3B92258B.22440.158837BA@localhost> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010902150330.00866250@pop.sprynet.com> At 12:34 PM 9/2/01 -0700, Tim May wrote: >Someone else: >> The fact that you may be >> identifiable at the point of entry to an anonymity system is >> a weakness, not a desired feature, and if it can be avoided, it >> should be. >> > >Then design such a system. You did a few lines earlier: >(Or if one is a remailer oneself.) > If the next generation of came with a remailer that was on by default, then even running a remailer would be too common to draw attention (prosecute). And given that Joe Sixpack's node regularly relays MSMixmaster messages, the *occasional* message injected by Joe will be nearly invisible. Heavy use might be detectable depending on how obvious the relayed messages are. >"Anyone a remailer, anyone a mint" is one strong approach. Very strong. In the case of a remailer, necessary. I suppose the spam potential, of everyone an SMTP forwarder, is problem? Surmountable. Deployment, sending-ease-of-use are the real problems. From galt at inconnu.isu.edu Sun Sep 2 15:44:33 2001 From: galt at inconnu.isu.edu (John Galt) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 16:44:33 -0600 (MDT) Subject: my name and address In-Reply-To: <20010902025914.30306.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: See what happens when you send chain letters? I'm really trying to work up some sympathy here, but I'm just failing. You participated in an illegal chain letter and now you want to be protected from the consequences of your actions. Tough. HTH, HAND, FOAD, etc. On Sat, 1 Sep 2001, (na) mshoe wrote: >Every now and again I do a search of my name just to >see what comes up and I recently saw a post of my name >an address at this url >http://www.shmoo.com/mail/cypherpunks/may01/msg00077.shtml. >I was wondering if you could please erase this for two >reasons, one I do not live at that address anymore and >two I stopped sending the chain letter 3 months ago, >so there is no use for my personal information to be >on the net anymore. Thank-You > Mitch > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger >http://im.yahoo.com > -- EMACS == Eight Megabytes And Constantly Swapping Who is John Galt? galt at inconnu.isu.edu, that's who! From stevet at sendon.net Sun Sep 2 09:47:04 2001 From: stevet at sendon.net (Steve Thompson) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 16:47:04 +0000 Subject: cryptosocialismo References: <3B9166F2.23300.3F2301@localhost> <200109021403.KAA01313@smtp6.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <200108301523.LAA18720@divert.sendon.net> Quoting John Young (jya at pipeline.com): > Choate wrote: > > >crypto-anarcy <> anarcho-socialism <> crypto-capitalism [snip] > True leaders, a contradictory oxymoron, never preen, > are never courageous, never perform exceptional > actions, would never call attention to themselves so > ineptly, and do not exhibit exhibitionistic characteristics > such as lecturing and preaching to obsequious > non-followers how to follow obediently without orders > being issued. That is what oral history and religious documents are for. What a beautiful arrangement when followers can be counted on to pull with the team without non-leaders having the tedious task of preaching orders directly to the chosen. [snip] > Old Time Anarchy was invented by authoritarians > to entrap firebrand fools. Not much has changed. > Old fools hustling the youngsters. But just as shit flows downhill, so must the youngsters grow old and hustle new youngsters. Ah, all must rejoice at this glorious cycle of life. > This is not a confession merely, but a bible quote, > or I forget which list this is. Good point. I should check to see what list I have been subscribed to just as a sensible precaution against the omnipresent lurking threat of the man-in-the- middle attack. Regards, Steve -- ``If religion were nothing but an illusion and a sham, there could be no philosophy of it. The study of it would belong to abnormal psychology.... Religion cannot afford to claim exemption from philosophical enquiry. If it attempts to do so on the grounds of sanctity, it can only draw upon itself suspicion that it is afraid to face the music.'' -- H. J. Paton, "The Modern Predicament" From anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org Sun Sep 2 15:38:01 2001 From: anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org (Anonymous) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 17:38:01 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Message Hit Points Message-ID: <3a09a2c822362157cbd69e6fd2772386@mixmaster.nullify.org> -5: Posted through node which modifies subject line -4: Pointless flame -3: "Me Too" comment +1: Posted through mixmaster remailer +2: Posted something funny +3: Posted something new and worth knowing or thinking about +4: Posted useful code +5: Signed with Cantsin Protocol No. 2 (Hi, Monty!) From bob at black.org Sun Sep 2 19:13:14 2001 From: bob at black.org (Subcommander Bob) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 19:13:14 -0700 Subject: Single-Number Plan Raises Privacy Fears Message-ID: <3B92E739.DFA3A292@black.org> September 2, 2001 Single-Number Plan Raises Privacy Fears Technology: System would link telephones, faxes and Web addresses while creating giant databases. By JUBE SHIVER Jr., Times Staff Writer WASHINGTON -- A controversial technology under development by the communications industry that links Internet addresses with phone numbers has quietly picked up key government support as concern mounts among critics that the technology will broadly undermine privacy. The technology, known as e-number, or ENUM, would link phone numbers to codes that computer servers use to route traffic on the Web. Proponents say the technology would improve communication for consumers and marketers alike. The industry envisions a sophisticated electronic address book that would be able to direct messages to virtually any fax machine, computer or telephone, using a new 11-digit e-number. As a result, a fax could be sent to someone who lacked a fax machine but had an e-mail address. Likewise, cell phone users would only have to key in 11-digits to send e-mail, not a cumbersome alphanumeric address. But privacy advocates fear the system could undermine online privacy and erode the security of the public phone system as well. They worry that the system would destroy a pillar of Internet privacy: the assumption by users that they enjoy anonymity in cyberspace. The government's endorsement of the technology, disclosed in interviews and outlined in an Aug. 21 letter distributed to an industry group, is seen as critical in pushing it forward. "The United States does see merit in pursing discussions regarding implementation of a coordinated, global [system] . . . for ENUM," Julian E. Minard, a State Department advisor to the International Telecommunication Advisory Committee, wrote to representatives of AT&T and other companies. But Minard cautioned in the letter that aspects of the technology advocated by industry "go beyond what is prudent or necessary." ENUM is likely to be voluntary, requiring users to sign up for the service. But privacy experts say it will not be worth the time and investment the industry is making in the technology unless it is widely used. So they expect ENUM will be aggressively promoted. "We believe that ENUM raises serious questions about privacy and security that need to be addressed before it's widely deployed," said Alan Davidson, associate director of the Center for Democracy and Technology, a privacy watchdog group based in Washington. "They are promoting this as a system that is going to make it really easy for people to find you in all kinds of ways. Well, we want to make sure that consumers can opt out if they don't want to be found." Today, vigilant Web surfers can maintain a high degree of anonymity because e-mail and other Web addresses contain little personal information. What's more, Web addresses under aliases can easily be created to cloak the identity of the sender. As a result, marketers have been forced to spend millions of dollars to get Web surfers to voluntarily give up personal information. By contrast, a phone number has a wealth of personal information associated with it, including a street address, billing records and dialing data. Marrying such information to Web addresses would represent a leap in private data warehousing in cyberspace and dramatically increase the risk of privacy invasions, experts say. "Someone could write a program to query the ENUM database and obtain every line of your contact information and send spam to every communications device you own," said Chris Hoofnagle, legislative director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center in Washington. Hoofnagle added that industry claims that consumers would be able to opt out of the system, or otherwise protect their private information, are hollow. "There could be coercion down the road [by marketers] to push consumers to use ENUM to store their contact information. Absent legislation, there is likely to be abuse." Since the Federal Communications Commission regulates the nation's telephone industry and the Commerce Department administers key contracts that allow private firms such as Mountain View, Calif.-based Verisign Inc. to register Internet domain names, the government is likely to play a powerful role in the outcome of ENUM. Its backing of further ENUM development is the most significant support yet for the technology. It comes as a newly created industry group, called the ENUM-Forum, agreed last week to an ambitious schedule to conclude work on ENUM by next May. "This is a big milestone," Gary W. Richenaker, of Telcordia Technologies Inc., said of the group's first meeting last Monday. Richenaker, who chaired the gathering, said that officials of the State Department, Federal Trade Commission and Commerce Department attended. ENUM would work by combining two massive electronic databases: North American telephone numbers now administered by a Washington company called NeuStar Inc. and the main database that routes Internet messages, which is largely controlled by Verisign. An ENUM address reverses a standard phone number and appends "e164.arpa" to it. For example, the toll-free directory assistance number would be converted to 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.0.0.8.1.e164.arpa. ENUM would recognize both the e164.arpa address and the phone number as belonging to directory assistance. With some software tweaks to the current Internet system, computers could be made to route messages to such 11-digit ENUM addresses in much the same way they now use up to 12-digits to send e-mail and display Web pages. Although industry engineers recently completed technical specifications for ENUM, AT&T, Cisco Systems Inc., SBC Communications Inc. and more than 20 members of the ENUM-Forum agreed last week to work out additional critical details of the system. ENUM-Forum players also include AOL Time Warner Inc., British Telecommunications plc and NetNumber.com Inc.--a Web start-up that has been operating a private, volunteer ENUM system for nearly a year. The companies will tackle operational and security issues, such as who would be authorized to make service changes. Phones are ordinarily associated with street addresses, not individuals, so businesses and households with more than one person or phone would need to determine who has control over the ENUM associated with the phones. The State Department's Minard said his Aug. 21 letter reflected the input of several government agencies but termed the document a "draft" that could change as industry details about ENUM evolve. Minard declined to elaborate on the misgivings expressed about ENUM in the letter. Other sources say ENUM is most strongly supported by the Commerce Department, while the FCC and State Department remain wary of the potential political fallout from embracing the technology. The industry, too, is divided over how much the government should be involved. The heavily regulated telephone industry supports a broader government role than do Internet companies such as Verisign and AOL Time Warner. Stacy M. Cheney, an attorney for the Commerce Department, said the government has not decided whether to play any regulatory role. But he said officials support "continuing discussions" on ENUM and would send representatives to a Sept. 12 meeting of an International Telecommunication Union panel to discuss the technology. Industry officials liken ENUM's potential effect to the introduction of touch-tone dialing in 1963. That advance paved the way for a host of modern phone features, including the ability to bank by phone and navigate voicemail menus. ENUM "could be a huge boon to Internet telephony and basic communications convergence," said Aristotle Balogh, vice president of technology at Verisign. ENUM, however, may never be embraced by businesses or consumers because of the privacy concerns. The technology will also require support from Internet service providers, software developers, phone carriers and others. Still, ENUM is expected to gain momentum with the government's support. It could also get a big boost from efforts by Microsoft Corp. and AOL Time Warner to make new versions of their software support ENUM technology. http://www.latimes.com/technology/la-090102privacy.story From sandfort at mindspring.com Sun Sep 2 20:51:42 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 20:51:42 -0700 Subject: Wuss-ninnies object to discussions on the list In-Reply-To: <200108300400.f7U401f01468@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: Heck, I was at Burning Man and just got back. Tim wrote: > Then we had Sandy Sandfort weighing in with > his comment that some Cypherpunks are going > to be in deep trouble with The Man. I think > Sandy even forecast my death in a shootout. Well, I was dead-bang right-on about Jim Bell, wasn't I? Perhaps Tim is confusing advocacy with prediction. I don't advocate the shooting of Tim May, but I think there is a substantial chance (10-20%?), that it will happen. I wouldn't want to risk those odds, but TMMV. S a n d y From whaazup at hotmail.com Sun Sep 2 21:09:21 2001 From: whaazup at hotmail.com (whaazup at hotmail.com) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 00:09:21 -0400 Subject: info that you requested Message-ID: <200109030357.WAA26450@einstein.ssz.com> ÐÏࡱál freedom. Read on... Thank you for your time and Interest. This is the letter you've been reading about in the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the Internet, a major nightly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of the program described below to see, if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved once and for all that there are, absolutely no laws prohibiting the participation in the program. This has helped to show people that this is a simple, harmless, and fun way to make some extra money at home. The results of this show have been truly remarkable. So many people are participating that those involved are doing much better than ever before. Since everyone makes more as more people try it out, its been very exciting to be a part of lately. You will understand once you experience it. "HERE IT IS BELOW." ************************************************* Print This Now (IF YOU HAVE NOT already done it) for Future Reference The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in taking a look at. It can be started with VERY LITTLE investment and the income return is TREMENDOUS!!! THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEYMAKING OPPORTUNITY. It does not require you to come into contact with people, do any especially hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail. Simply follow the instructions, and you really can make this happen. This e-mail order-marketing program works every time if you put in the effort to make it work. E-mail is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of this non- commercialized method of advertising NOW! The longer you wait, the more savvy people will be taking your business using e-mail. Get what is rightfully yours. Program yourself for success and dare to think BIG. Sounds corny but its true. You'll never make it big if you dont have the belief system in place. ************************************************************** My name is Jonathan Rourke. Two years ago, the corporation I worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was eliminated. After unproductive job interviews, I decided to open my own business. Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial problems. I owed my family, friends, and creditors over $35,000. The economy was taking a toll on my business and I just couldn't seem to make ends meet. I had to refinance and borrow against my home to support my family and struggling business. At that moment something significant happened in my life and I am writing to share the experience in hopes that this will change your life forever financially! In mid December of 1997, I received this program via e-mail. Six months prior to receiving this program, I had been sending away for information on various business opportunities. All of the programs I received, in my opinion, were not cost effective. They were either too difficult for me to comprehend or the initial investment of hundreds of thousands of dollars was too much for me to risk to see if they would work or not. One claimed that I would make a million dollars in one year... it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it! But like I was saying, in December of 1997 I received this program. I didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing list. Thank goodness for that! After reading it several times, to make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes. Here was a money making phenomenon! I could invest as much as I wanted to start, without putting me further into debt. After I got a pencil and paper and figured it out, I would at least get my money back. But like most of you I was still a little skeptical and a little worried about the legal aspects of it all. So I checked it out with the U.S. Post Office (1-800-725-2161 24-hrs) and they confirmed that it is indeed legal! After determining the program was Legal and not a chain letter, I decided "Why not?." Initially I sent out 10,000 e-mails. It cost me about $25 for third party bulk emailing. The great thing about e-mail is that I don't need any money for printing to send out the program, and because all of my orders are fulfilled via e- mail, the only expense is my time or advertising costs. I am telling you like it is. I hope it doesn't turn you off, but I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how much money it cost me. Here is the basic version of what you need to do: Your first goal is to "Receive at least 20 orders for Report #1 within 2 weeks of your first program going out. IF YOU DON'T, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!" Your second goal is to "Receive at least 150 orders for report #2 within 2 weeks. IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. Once you have your 150 orders, relax, you've met your goal, you will make $50,000 but keep at it! If you don't get 150 right off, keep at it! It just may take some time for your down line to build, keep at it, stay focused and do not let yourself get distracted! In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for Report #1. I kept at it.. kept mailing out the program and By January 13, I had received 26 orders for Report #1. My first step in making $50,000 was done. By January 30, I had received 196 orders for Report #2, 46 more than I needed. So I relaxed, but kept at it mailing out programs via classified ad leads at first and then later via bulk email ads (not free like classifieds but much more effective). By March 1, three months after my e-mailing of the first 10,000 I had hit $58,000 with more coming in every day. I paid off ALL my debts and bought a much-needed new car. Please take time to read the attached program, IT CAN CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER!!! Remember, it won't work if you don't try it. This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rules of not trying to place your name in a different place. It won't work, you'll lose out on a lot of money! In order for this program to work very fast ( you will make money no matter what as long as you do some mailing of programs) try to meet your goal of 20 orders for REPORT #1, and 150 orders for REPORT #2 and you will make $50,000 or more in 90 days. If you don't reach the first two goals within two weeks, relax, you will still make a ton of money it may just take a few months or so longer. But keep mailing out programs and stay focused ! Thats the key! I am living proof that it works! If you choose not to participate in this program, I am sorry. It really is a great opportunity with minimal risk to you. If you choose to participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to financial security. If you are a fellow business owner and are in financial trouble like I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a sign. I DID! Sincerely, Jonathan Rourke PS Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) looks like piled up on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME! Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. ************************************************** THINK ABOUT IT: Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil and figure out what could happen when YOU participate. Figure out the worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will still make a lot of money! You will definitely get back what you invested. Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in. IT WORKS! Jody Jacobs, Richmond, VA ************************************************** HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU THOUSANDS OF DOLLAR$ INSTRUCTIONS: This method of raising capital REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME. If you get to work and stay focused on it! I am sure that you could use extra income or more in the next few months. Before you say, "NO WAY... ", please read this program carefully. This is a legal money making opportunity. Basically, this is what you do: As with all multi-level businesses, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products. Every state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-level business partners, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent. YOUR ORDERS COME BY MAIL AND ARE FILLED BY E-MAIL, so you are not involved in personal selling. You do it privately in your own home, store, or office. This is the GREATEST Multi-Level Mail Order Marketing anywhere: This is what you MUST do: 1. Order all 5 reports shown on the list below (you can't sell them if you don't order them). * For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, YOUR NAME & RETURN ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to the person whose name appears on the list next to the report. * When you place your order, make sure you order each of the five reports. You will need all five reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. * Within a few days, you will receive, via e-mail, each of the five reports. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. 2. IMPORTANT-- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than is instructed below in steps "a" through "g" or you will lose out on the majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you'll also see how it doesn't work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter it, it will not work. a. Look below for the listing of available reports. b. After you've ordered the five reports, take this Advertisement and remove the name and address under REPORT #5. This person has made it through a cycle and is no doubt on their way to $50,000 ! c. Move the name and address under REPORT #4 down to REPORT #5. d. Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to REPORT #4. e. Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3. f. Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to REPORT #2. g. Insert your name and address in the REPORT #1 position. Please make sure you copy every name and address ACCURATELY! Copy and paste method works well. (on IBM compatibles machines highlight the text you want to move and press ctrl-C to copy it and then click where you want it to go and then hit Ctrl - V to paste it in. Or use the edit menu.) 3. Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and save it to your computer. Make NO changes to the Instruction portion of this letter. Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can afford $25!). You obviously already have an Internet Connection and e-mail, which you use to fill your orders its basically FREE! To assist you with marketing your business on the Internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing information which includes how to send bulk e- mails, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much, much more. There are two primary methods of building your down line: METHOD #1: SENDING BULK E-MAIL Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we'll assume you and all those involved send out only 2,000 programs each. Let's also assume that the mailing receives a 0.5% response. Using a good list, the response could be much better. Also, many people will send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000. But continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs. With a 0.5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1. Those 10 people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000. Out of those 0.5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2. Those 100 people mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000. The 0.5% response to that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3. Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each for a 2,000,000 total. The 0.5% response to that is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4. That amounts to 10,000 each of $5 bills for you in CASH MONEY! Then think about level five! Your total income in this example would be $50 $500 $5,000 $50,000 for a total of $55,550 ! REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF THE 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO "ABSOLUTELY NOTHING" AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF HALF-SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF 2,000. Believe me, MANY people will do just that, and more! REPORT #2 will show you the best methods for bulk e-mailing, and email software. METHOD #2 - PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET 1. Classified Advertising on the web via message boards/ classified sites is very inexpensive, and there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to place ads. Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it works. Assume your goal is to get ONLY 10 people to participate on your first level. (Placing a lot of FREE classified ads on the Internet will EASILY get a larger response). Also, assume that everyone else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 down line members. Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results Below (same as email example): 1st level-your 10 members with $5............... $50 2nd level-10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100)....$500 3rd level-10 members from those 100 ($5 x1,000) $5,000 4th level-10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10k) $50,000 THIS TOTALS............................. ........$55,550 5th level-10 members from those 10,000 ($5 x 100k)???,???! Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only recruits 10 people each. Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20 people to participate! Many people get 100's of participants! THINK ABOUT IT! For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the report they ordered. THAT'S IT! ALWAYS TRY TO PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS! This will GUARANTEE that the e-mail THEY send out, with YOUR name and address on it, will be prompt. AVAILABLE REPORTS ---------------------------------------------------------- *** Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME *** Notes: - ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH (U.S. CURRENCY) FOR EACH REPORT CHEQUES ARE NOT ACCEPTED - ALWAYS SEND YOUR ORDER VIA FIRST CLASS MAIL - Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two sheets of paper (IF NOT MORE SO THAT THE BILL(s) CAN'T BE SEEN AGAINST LIGHT) - On one of those sheets of paper, include: (a) the number & name of the report you are ordering (b)your e-mail address (c) your name & postal address (as return address in case the post office encounters problems). PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW: Report #1 "The insider's Guide to Advertizing for free on the Internet." ORDER REPORT #1 FROM: Eric Allen 999 Westchester RD South Park, PA 15129 _______________________________________ REPORT #2 "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk E-mail on the Internet." ORDER REPORT #2 FROM: Maria Thibodeau PO Box 2294 Edgartown, MA 02539 __________________________________________________ REPORT #3 "The Insider's Guide to Multilevel Marketing on the Internet." ORDER REPORT #3 FROM: JC Cosi 17760 Candlewood Terrace Boca Raton, FL 33487 _______________________________________________ REPORT #4 "How to become a Millionare utilzing the Internet." ORDER REPORT #4 FROM: Andrew Moss 5959 Natchez Rd Riverside CA, 92509 ________________________________________________ REPORT #5 "How to become a Millionaire utilizing the Power of Multilevel Marketing and the Internet Part II" ORDER REPORT #5 FROM: Don Harpo 3028 Ridgeland Dr Jackson, MS 39212 _________________________________________________ About 50,000 new people get online every month! ******* TIPS FOR SUCCESS ******* * TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS! Be prompt, professional, and follow the directions accurately. * Send for the five reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when the orders start coming in because: * When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested product/report. * ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICES ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE. * Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the instructions exactly, your results WILL BE SUCCESSFUL! * ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED! ******* YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES ******* Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: Start posting ads as soon as you mail off for the reports! By the time you start receiving orders, your reports will be in your mailbox! For now.. something simple, such as posting on message boards something to the effect of "Would you like to know how to earn 50,000 working out of your house with NO initial investment? Email me with the keywords "more info" to find out how." ---- and when they email you , send them this report in response! If you don't receive 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks, keep at it, continue advertising or sending bulk e- mails UNTIL YOU DO. Then, a few weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT#2. If you don't, continue advertising or sending e-mails UNTIL YOU DO. Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, but continue to keep at it! Cash will continue to roll in! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a DIFFERENT report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. If you want to generate more income, send another batch of e-mails or continue placing ads and start the whole process again! There is virtually no limit to the income you will generate from this business! Before you make your decision as to whether or not you participate in this program. Please answer one question..... DO YOU "WANT" TO CHANGE YOUR LIFE? If the answer is yes, please look at the following facts about this program: 1. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST ANYTHING TO PRODUCE! 2. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST ANYTHING TO SHIP! 3. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST YOU ANYTHING TO ADVERTISE (except for bulk mailing costs if using that method)! 4. YOU ARE UTILIZING THE POWER OF THE INTERNET AND THE POWER OF MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING TO DISTRIBUTE YOUR PRODUCT ALL OVER THE WORLD! 5. YOUR ONLY EXPENSES OTHER THAN YOUR INITIAL $25 AND BULK MAILING COST INVESTMENT IS YOUR TIME! 6. VIRTUALLY ALL OF THE INCOME YOU GENERATE FROM THIS PROGRAM IS PURE PROFIT! 7. THIS PROGRAM REALY CAN CHANGE YOUR LIFE . ******* T E S T I M O N I A L S ******* This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't work and you'll lose a lot of potential income. I'm living proof that it works. It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with little cost to you. If you do choose to participate, follow the program exactly, and you'll be on your way to financial security. Stay focused on this program, don't let yourself get distracted stay focused on this program! Steven Bardfield, Portland, OR ****************************************************** My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody, and I live in Chicago, IL. I am a cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received the program, I grumbled to Jody about receiving "junk mail." I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I "knew" it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing didn't work... well, the laugh was on me! Within two weeks, she had received over 50 responses. Within 105 days, she had received over $47,200 in $5 bills! I was shocked! I was sure that I had it all figured and that it wouldn't work. I AM a believer now. I have joined Jody in her "hobby." I did have seven more years until retirement, but I think of the "rat race" and it's not for me. We owe it all to network marketing (MLM). Mitchell Wolf MD., Chicago, IL ****************************************************** The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount of money in a short time. I was approached several times before I checked this out. I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in the first 14 weeks, with money still coming in. If you are already in the program and haven't made at least this much, its because you need to stay ACTIVE! This thing is awesome, i did it, anyone can do it! Charles Morris, Esq. *************************************************** Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back. Boy, was I surprised when I found my medium-size post office box crammed with orders! For awhile, it got so overloaded that I had to start picking up my mail at the window. I'll make more money this year than any 10 years of my life before. The nice thing about this deal is that it doesn't matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment for what it allows you, personal freedom. Paige Willis, Des Moines, IA ************************************************** I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed another program. Eleven months passed then it came...I didn't delete this one!!! I made more than $41,000. This is for real, get to work. Violet Wilson, Johnstown, PA **************************************************** We have quit our jobs, and will soon buy a home on the beach and live off the interest on our money. The only way on earth that this plan will work for you is if you do it. For your sake, and for your family's sake don't pass up this golden opportunity. Good luck and happy spending! Kerry Ford, Centerport, NY *************************************************** ORDER YOUR REPORTS AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM! *************************************************** FOR YOUR INFORMATION: If you need help with starting a business, registering a business name, learning how income tax is handled, etc., contact your local office of the Small Business Administration (a Federal agency) 1-(800)827-5722 for free help and answers to questions. Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via telephone and free seminars about business tax requirements. IT IS TOTALLY UP TO YOU NOW!!! CAN YOU HANDLE SUCCESS AND ALL THAT MONEY??? ****************************************************** Under Bills.1618 Title III passed by the 105th US Congress this letter cannot be considered spam as the sender includes contact information and a method of removal. No request for removal is necessary as this is a one time e-mail transmission. **************************************************** qmps From mail07211 at mweb.com.cn Mon Sep 3 01:59:39 2001 From: mail07211 at mweb.com.cn (Alice) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 01:59:39 Subject: FREE CELL PHONE, FREE MEMBERSHIP, FREE SOFTWARE Message-ID: <200109021745.KAA01537@toad.com> YOUR FREE MEMBERSHIP!! Plus get a Free Cell Phone and Free Computer Software To Help YOU Make MORE Money !! CHECK IT OUT! http://www.freewebco.net/bizopp or http://www.freewebhostingcentral.cc/bizopp The Fastest Way To Earn $2000+ EVERY Month Online !!! Looking for a secure and legitimate online home business? 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DON"T MISS OUT !! http://www.freewebco.net/bizopp or http://www.freewebhostingcentral.cc/bizopp --------------------------------------------------------- This is a one time mailing and you will not be contacted again and though it is not necessary to request removal, you may do so by sending an email to: mailto:mail0719 at btamail.net.cn?subject=Please_Remove_Bizopp From mail07211 at mweb.com.cn Mon Sep 3 01:59:39 2001 From: mail07211 at mweb.com.cn (Alice) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 01:59:39 Subject: FREE CELL PHONE, FREE MEMBERSHIP, FREE SOFTWARE Message-ID: YOUR FREE MEMBERSHIP!! Plus get a Free Cell Phone and Free Computer Software To Help YOU Make MORE Money !! CHECK IT OUT! http://www.freewebco.net/bizopp or http://www.freewebhostingcentral.cc/bizopp The Fastest Way To Earn $2000+ EVERY Month Online !!! Looking for a secure and legitimate online home business? One that WILL bring steady, dependable monthly checks EVERY month and in the shortest amount of time ?? We can share with you a way to earn $1000's per month on the Internet and receive GUARANTEED monthly checks that will continue to grow. No Hype Here ! - We Can PROVE It !! Free To Join - Means Instant Growth ! Can YOU give away FREE memberships? Most Certainly !! All day long in fact, AND earn an explosive income in doing so ! No pre-launch here! Four year old company with proven system - that works !! Making money on the Internet has never been EASIER ! Join Free and get your own free web site where you can watch your downline grow before your eyes !! Check it daily then you decide !! See why thousands of people from all over the world are joining - FREE ! Lock in Your Position Today and we'll also give you promotional software that will increase traffic to ANY web site !! See for Yourself ! Grab your ID Here ! DON"T MISS OUT !! http://www.freewebco.net/bizopp or http://www.freewebhostingcentral.cc/bizopp --------------------------------------------------------- This is a one time mailing and you will not be contacted again and though it is not necessary to request removal, you may do so by sending an email to: mailto:mail0719 at btamail.net.cn?subject=Please_Remove_Bizopp From mail07211 at mweb.com.cn Mon Sep 3 01:59:39 2001 From: mail07211 at mweb.com.cn (Alice) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 01:59:39 Subject: FREE CELL PHONE, FREE MEMBERSHIP, FREE SOFTWARE Message-ID: YOUR FREE MEMBERSHIP!! Plus get a Free Cell Phone and Free Computer Software To Help YOU Make MORE Money !! CHECK IT OUT! http://www.freewebco.net/bizopp or http://www.freewebhostingcentral.cc/bizopp The Fastest Way To Earn $2000+ EVERY Month Online !!! Looking for a secure and legitimate online home business? One that WILL bring steady, dependable monthly checks EVERY month and in the shortest amount of time ?? We can share with you a way to earn $1000's per month on the Internet and receive GUARANTEED monthly checks that will continue to grow. No Hype Here ! - We Can PROVE It !! Free To Join - Means Instant Growth ! Can YOU give away FREE memberships? Most Certainly !! All day long in fact, AND earn an explosive income in doing so ! No pre-launch here! Four year old company with proven system - that works !! Making money on the Internet has never been EASIER ! Join Free and get your own free web site where you can watch your downline grow before your eyes !! Check it daily then you decide !! See why thousands of people from all over the world are joining - FREE ! Lock in Your Position Today and we'll also give you promotional software that will increase traffic to ANY web site !! See for Yourself ! Grab your ID Here ! DON"T MISS OUT !! http://www.freewebco.net/bizopp or http://www.freewebhostingcentral.cc/bizopp --------------------------------------------------------- This is a one time mailing and you will not be contacted again and though it is not necessary to request removal, you may do so by sending an email to: mailto:mail0719 at btamail.net.cn?subject=Please_Remove_Bizopp From Anti_Immigration-owner at yahoogroups.com Sun Sep 2 22:22:51 2001 From: Anti_Immigration-owner at yahoogroups.com (Anti_Immigration moderator) Date: 3 Sep 2001 05:22:51 -0000 Subject: Invitation to join the Anti_Immigration group Message-ID: <999494571.5441.5449.n4@yahoogroups.com> Hello, You've been invited to join the Anti_Immigration group, an email group hosted by Yahoo! Groups, a free, easy-to-use email group service. JOIN NOW, IT'S EASY: 1) REPLY to this email by clicking "Reply" and then "Send" in your email program -OR- 2) Go to the Yahoo! Groups site at http://groups.yahoo.com/invite/Anti_Immigration?email=cypherpunks%40toad%2Ecom&iref=q2SqGBJac5QCQuoGRhzOhQtozIg By joining Anti_Immigration, you will be able to exchange messages with other group members. Yahoo! Groups also makes it easy to store photos and files, coordinate events and more. Here's an introductory message from the group moderator: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ PLEASE REPLY TO THIS EMAIL AND YOU WILL BE AUTOMATICALLY ADDED TO THIS EMAIL LIST. ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION IS ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUES FACING OUR NATION TODAY. I urge you to join me on this yahoo anti-immigration email discussion list. It is easy to join the list. How? To join just send me a �reply� to this email and you will be automatically added to the anti-immigration email list. I started this Yahoo email list for the purpose of discussing the legal and illegal immigration that is threatening to overwhelm America and destroy our Republic. You and I have corresponded several times in the past. However, I have switched ISP's and email addresses several times and you may not remember me. The last time we corresponded I was using AOL and ModemPool.com as my primary ISP. If you wish to be removed from my anti-immigration email list just let me know and it will be immediately done. But I plead with you to stay on for a few weeks and give it a trial run. I promise you that you will read articles on this list that you will find super interesting and very informative. If you do not remember me nor recognize my email address, here are some of my old addresses that you may remember corresponding with me at; Bob1776 at modempool.com, WINDOW153 at AOL.COM, MAGoldbaum at Worldnet.att.net, JFAQ597 at AOL.COM, GKO38 at AOL.COM, SERG7GDR at AOL.COM, MAGoldbaum at Email.MSN.Com, RGW at Sojourn.com, BobfromMichigan77 at hotmail.com, BobfromMichigan74 at Hotmail.com, This is a moderated group and the volume of email in this list is intentionally kept to a very low number of emails per day (usually less than 1 per day weekly average). I pledge to never overfill your email box with too many emails. Please join this List and invite your friends join also. In general we post ONLY articles from REPUTABLE mainstream websites and newspapers, et al. Politically, I am very conservative, but this YAHOO email group will absolutely support free speech. I hate censorship and I will not censor anyone's opinion regardless of whether you are far left or far right unless you are an irrational & hateful person. So that you will know exactly where I am coming from I wrote the following; I AM A FAN OF Jesus Christ-The Bible-Human Events Newspaper-MediaByPass magazine-The New American Magazine-FreeRepublic.com-WorldNetDaily.com-Patriot Militia�s-General Douglas McArthur-President Ronald Reagan-Senator Joseph McCarthy-Robert Bork-Russell Kirk-Pat Buchanan-Allan Keyes-Dr. James Kennedy-R.J.Rushdoony-Andrew Sandlin-Gary North-Gary Demar-David Chilton-John Calvin-Jonathan Edwards-George Whitefield-Martin Luther-Donald Wildmon-Jay Sekulow-John Whitehead-John McManus-David Barton-Senator Bob Smith-Bob Dornan-Congressmen Ron Paul,Helen Chenoweth,George Hansen-Gordon Kahl-Howard Philips-Ludwig von Mises-F.A.Hayek-Milton Friedman-Russell Kirk-Martin Gross-Vin Suprynowicz-Walter Williams-Thomas Sowell-Alex Jones-Michael Savage-Frank from Queens-Shawn Hannity-Rabbi Daniel Lapin-Michael Medved-Chuck Morse-Don Feder-Sam Blumenfeld-Joseph Sobran-Michael Hoffman-Bo Gritz-Larry Becraft-Michael New- Charlotte Iserbyt-Beverly Eakman- Phyllis Schlafly-Joseph Farah-Charley Reese! -G! eorge Gilder-Paul Johnson-Alexis DeToqueville-Edmund Burke-Frederick Bastiat-Ayn Rand-George-Washington-James Madison-Patrick Henry-Thomas Jefferson-Noah Webster-David Horowitz-Reed Irvine-Paul Weyrich-Aaron Zelman-Larry Pratt and many more such heroes of liberty ATTENTION: PLEASE GO TO THE ARCHIVES OF THIS EMAIL LIST (ADDRESS BELOW) AND SEE THE MOST RECENT TYPES OF POSTS TO THIS EMAIL LIST. THANKS, BOB. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Anti_Immigration/messages � Archives, Recent messages sent from this list. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Anti_Immigration � A description of the Anti-immigration group Subscribe: Anti_Immigration-subscribe at yahoogroups.com Post message: Anti_Immigration at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: Anti_Immigration-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com List owner: Anti_Immigration-owner at yahoogroups.com My Email address: anti_immigration_man at yahoo.com My Email address: BobFromMichigan77 at Hotmail.com PS - PLEASE TELL OTHERS ABOUT THIS EMAIL LIST TOO! Welcome to the Anti_Immigration group at Yahoo! Groups, a free, easy-to-use email group service. Please take a moment to review this message. To start sending messages to members of this group, simply send email to Anti_Immigration at yahoogroups.com If you do not wish to belong to Anti_Immigration, you may unsubscribe by sending an email to Anti_Immigration-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com You may also visit the Yahoo! Groups web site to modify your subscriptions: http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups Regards, Moderator, Anti_Immigration ------------------------------------------------------------------------ If you do not wish to join the Anti_Immigration group, please ignore this invitation. SPECIAL NOTE FROM Yahoo! Groups: Because Yahoo! Groups values your privacy, it is a violation of our service rules for moderators to abuse this invitation feature. If you feel this has happened, please notify us at abuse at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From optin2000 at hotmail.com Mon Sep 3 07:24:28 2001 From: optin2000 at hotmail.com (Ross) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 09:24:28 -0500 Subject: Home Business Opportunity Message-ID: <200109031433.JAA28402@einstein.ssz.com> $ AMERICAS #1 HOME BASED BUSINESS $ Network Marketing is BOOMING on the Web! Learn how we’re sponsoring OVER 100,000 monthly worldwide without mailing anything, without faxing anything, without calling anyone! Totally Internet and system-driven and we’ve only scratched the surface. Get started FREE! Tap into the fastest, most ingenious FREE lead generating system on the Internet. If you want to build an Internet business 100% online from the comfort of your own home, you'll LOVE this simple, automated system ! Make commissions on unlimited depth ! That's right no levels !!! This is the plan you've been hoping for, no gotchas here, fair, simple and above all it works ! For the complete details on this incredible home business opportunity visit http://www.sixfigure1.freeservers.com Thank You & God Bless ========================================================== ============== This message connot be considered spam, I purchased your email address from a list server company that in good faith told me that you are an individual that is interested in receiving FREE offers via email I apologise if your email made it on to this list without your consent, my intentions are good and my FREE offfer just might change your life.You are not on any remailing list and will not here from me again unless you respond to the site below http://www.sixfigure1.freeservers.com Thank You From subscriptions at mcafee.com Mon Sep 3 10:52:00 2001 From: subscriptions at mcafee.com (subscriptions at mcafee.com) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 10:52:00 -0700 Subject: Your McAfee.com Password Request Message-ID: Dear joe, You have requested that we email you your McAfee.com password. Here is your complete login information at McAfee.com: Email Address: cypherpunks at toad.com McAfee.com Password: cypherpunk If you wish to change your registered email address or your password, please click here: -> http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/membership/update_profile_form.asp Thank you, McAfee.com Membership Services From memcy83101 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 3 09:21:02 2001 From: memcy83101 at yahoo.com (--EmailCenter--) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 11:21:02 -0500 Subject: 1/2 Price Email Sale Extended... Message-ID: <200109031621.LAA28878@einstein.ssz.com> ===================================== Start getting a response to your ad! ===================================== 50% OFF SALE-- FRESH 10,000 List 8-30-01!! 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NEW::::::: Check our our Ulimate Marketing CD!:::::::::: E-mail for the site details! - SPECIALS! - **FREE with EVERY order: Demo of ListMan e-mail manager software **Orders of 50,000 or more: FREE copy Express Mail Server to send your messages! -This is not a demo but a permanent license for the software! **Orders of 100,000 or more: - Resale Rights for EMS! -->You keep 100% of the profits - InfoDisk with 1000+ Money Making Reports - CheckMAN software _______________________________________________________________ To be removed from future mailings: mailto:memcy819001 at yahoo.com?Subject=Remove From n6jpa at wvi.com Mon Sep 3 12:07:25 2001 From: n6jpa at wvi.com (Keith) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 12:07:25 -0700 Subject: [PGP-USERS] Another Flaw in PGP found. Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 It seems a programer has found another security flaw in PGP. Details tomorrow and the web page is at: http://www.security.nl/artikel.php3?id=2293 if you read Dutch. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.8 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBO5PU3bwKMbGJKZceEQI7FACgwMnUV0zDjIF4TG5Df636NQaRmuoAoOub rbDtGn3YmaId3B8AstQ59m4f =KhFO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Best Regards, Keith YahooIM:strongsignals_com AIM:KeithYit23 ========================================================== Find Windows Freeware @ http://strongsignals.com/ The rec.radio.swap Email List http://groups.yahoo.com/group/recradioswap/ Microsoft said OE5 or better so I installed Pegasus V4! ========================================================== .................................................................... Unsubscribe: Automated Help/Info: List Homepage: List Admin (human): Please do not send administrative commands to the list address! Thanks. --- end forwarded text --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From hseaver at ameritech.net Mon Sep 3 10:38:49 2001 From: hseaver at ameritech.net (Harmon Seaver) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 12:38:49 -0500 Subject: Announce loop-AES-v1.4d file/swap crypto package References: <3B93B32A.69D25916@pp.inet.fi> Message-ID: <3B93C012.CF5B9180@ameritech.net> Any comments on this versus cryptoapi? It only allows you to use AES, whereas cyrptoapi gives a choice of several. Jari Ruusu wrote: > [linux-kernel also CC'd due to recent encrypted swap discussion] > > In short: If file and swap crypto is all you need, this package is a hassle > free replacement for international crypto patch and HVR's crypto-api. > > This package provides loadable Linux kernel module (loop.o) that has AES > cipher built-in. The AES cipher can be used to encrypt local file systems > and disk partitions. For more information about compiling and using the > driver, see the README file in the package. > > Features: > - GPL license. > - No source modifications to kernel. No patch hassles when you are upgrading > your kernel. > - Works with all recent 2.4, 2.2 and 2.0 kernels, including distro vendor > kernels. Encrypted disk images are compatible across all supported > kernels. > - AES cipher is used in CBC mode. Supports 128, 192 and 256 bit keys. > - Passwords hashed with SHA-256, SHA-384 or SHA-512. > - 512 byte based IV. IV is immune to variations in transfer size and does > not depend on file system block size. > - Device backed (partition backed) loop is capable of encrypting swap on 2.4 > kernels. > > Changes since previous release: > - Little speed optimization in aes-glue.c > - External encryption module locking bug is fixed (kernel 2.4 only). This > bug did not affect loop-AES operation at all. This fix is from Ingo > Rohloff. > - On 2.4 kernels, device backed loop maintains private pre-allocated pool of > RAM pages that are used when kernel is totally out of free RAM. This > change also fixes stock loop.c sin of sleeping in make_request_fn(). > > Kernel 2.4 users who want to encrypt swap partitions should upgrade to this > version. No need to upgrade if you use older 2.2 or 2.0 kernels. > > bzip2 compressed tarball is here: > > http://loop-aes.sourceforge.net/loop-AES-v1.4d.tar.bz2 > md5sum 404f82796bacc479deb266f13ec260b8 > > PGP signature file, my public key, and fingerprint here: > > http://loop-aes.sourceforge.net/loop-AES-v1.4d.tar.bz2.sign > http://loop-aes.sourceforge.net/PGP-public-key.asc > 1024/3A220F51 5B 4B F9 BB D3 3F 52 E9 DB 1D EB E3 24 0E A9 DD > > Regards, > Jari Ruusu > > Linux-crypto: cryptography in and on the Linux system > Archive: http://mail.nl.linux.org/linux-crypto/ -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 hseaver at cybershamanix.com Home 920-233-5820 hseaver at ameritech.net http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html From mattd at useoz.com Sun Sep 2 20:59:34 2001 From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 13:59:34 +1000 Subject: Toto in oz Message-ID: <009d01c1342c$d8d18660$427da6cb@mattd> Jim lives!http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=61450&group=webcast My name is jim bell,no MY name is jim bell...AAAAAAAAArrrgh! Im screwed. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 629 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mix at cybershamanix.com Mon Sep 3 12:24:10 2001 From: mix at cybershamanix.com (mix at cybershamanix.com) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 14:24:10 -0500 Subject: moral crypto Message-ID: <20010903142410.A2913@cybershamanix.com> What's with this moral crypto jive? Nomen sounds like Faustine in drag. Who cares if Osama benefits from crypto - he isn't any greater danger to our much tattered peace and freedom than Dubbya. Probably a lot less. From cell_phone_fun311510 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 3 13:34:36 2001 From: cell_phone_fun311510 at yahoo.com (cell_phone_fun311510 at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 15:34:36 -0500 Subject: nokia cell users 311510765433322 Message-ID: <200207062141.g66Lf4a26457@mail.vrfield.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 8325 bytes Desc: not available URL: From " greatsercer at crosswinds.net " at toad.com Mon Sep 3 15:45:24 2001 From: " greatsercer at crosswinds.net " at toad.com (" greatsercer at crosswinds.net " at toad.com) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 15:45:24 Subject: " bank statements " Message-ID: <200109260323.UAA06997@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4302 bytes Desc: not available URL: From " greatsercer at crosswinds.net " at toad.com Mon Sep 3 15:45:24 2001 From: " greatsercer at crosswinds.net " at toad.com (" greatsercer at crosswinds.net " at toad.com) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 15:45:24 Subject: " bank statements " Message-ID: <200109130427.VAA05107@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4302 bytes Desc: not available URL: From " greatsercer at crosswinds.net " at toad.com Mon Sep 3 15:45:24 2001 From: " greatsercer at crosswinds.net " at toad.com (" greatsercer at crosswinds.net " at toad.com) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 15:45:24 Subject: " bank statements " Message-ID: <200109171716.KAA13172@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4302 bytes Desc: not available URL: From " greatsercer at crosswinds.net " at toad.com Mon Sep 3 15:45:24 2001 From: " greatsercer at crosswinds.net " at toad.com (" greatsercer at crosswinds.net " at toad.com) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 15:45:24 Subject: " bank statements " Message-ID: <200109040022.RAA00898@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4302 bytes Desc: not available URL: From " greatsercer at crosswinds.net " at toad.com Mon Sep 3 15:45:24 2001 From: " greatsercer at crosswinds.net " at toad.com (" greatsercer at crosswinds.net " at toad.com) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 15:45:24 Subject: " bank statements " Message-ID: <200109242122.OAA02801@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4302 bytes Desc: not available URL: From " greatsercer at crosswinds.net " at toad.com Mon Sep 3 15:45:24 2001 From: " greatsercer at crosswinds.net " at toad.com (" greatsercer at crosswinds.net " at toad.com) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 15:45:24 Subject: " bank statements " Message-ID: <200109110204.TAA16479@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4302 bytes Desc: not available URL: From boomshado at earthlink.net Mon Sep 3 16:04:27 2001 From: boomshado at earthlink.net (boomshado at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 16:04:27 Subject: Tired of Working 9 to 5? 7 Message-ID: <200109031959.f83Jxd911359@localhost.localdomain> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1612 bytes Desc: not available URL: From schear at lvcm.com Mon Sep 3 17:35:11 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 17:35:11 -0700 Subject: Moral Crypto In-Reply-To: <200109021938.f82JcQf23312@slack.lne.com> References: <3B92258B.22440.158837BA@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010903173020.031fde98@pop3.lvcm.com> At 12:34 PM 9/2/2001 -0700, Tim May wrote: >On Sunday, September 2, 2001, at 12:26 PM, georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote: > > I stand by my earlier statement. The fact that you may be > > identifiable at the point of entry to an anonymity system is > > a weakness, not a desired feature, and if it can be avoided, it > > should be. > > > >Then design such a system. > >"Anyone a remailer, anyone a mint" is one strong approach. I know this suggestion has been made before, probably by myself, but it seems the remailer programmers may be missing a good opportunity in not pursuing the inclusion of remailer code in the popular Gnutella cleints (e.g., LimeWire). They advertise they are looking for new "content communities." http://www.limewire.com/index.jsp/formgroup I don't see any reason why email can't be added as a new form of content. steve From kravietz at aba.krakow.pl Mon Sep 3 08:46:40 2001 From: kravietz at aba.krakow.pl (Pawel Krawczyk) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 17:46:40 +0200 Subject: secure IRC/messaging successor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20010903174640.L17811@aba.krakow.pl> On Thu, Aug 30, 2001 at 06:41:18PM +0200, Eugene Leitl wrote: > Gale http://www.gale.org/ seems a well thought out infrastructure. Is the > consensus "this is it", or have I missed any alternatives? Have you seen http://www.silcnet.org/? -- Paweł Krawczyk *** home: security: *** fidonet: 2:486/23 From tcmay at got.net Mon Sep 3 17:59:02 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 17:59:02 -0700 Subject: Factoring challenges considered boring In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200109040102.f84123f27550@slack.lne.com> On Monday, September 3, 2001, at 05:55 PM, V. Alex Brennen wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On Mon, 3 Sep 2001, Steve Schear wrote: >> >> At 12:34 PM 9/2/2001 -0700, Tim May wrote: >>> >>> "Anyone a remailer, anyone a mint" is one strong approach. >> >> I know this suggestion has been made before, probably by myself, but it >> seems the remailer programmers may be missing a good opportunity in not >> pursuing the inclusion of remailer code in the popular Gnutella cleints >> (e.g., LimeWire). They advertise they are looking for new "content >> communities." http://www.limewire.com/index.jsp/formgroup I don't see >> any >> reason why email can't be added as a new form of content. > > I haven't heard this before. It's a good idea. > > I've tried to contact limewire about working with them on some > distributed resources coding concepts. I found them unreceptive. > They suck. > > I've started on the very beginnings of a GNU Distributed Computing > client to attack the RSA RC5 and factoring challenges. Jeez, why waste time on such an old-hat idea? I'm serious. The latest factoring and RC5 challenges do nothing new. Neither does using a bunch of machines. Been there, done that, got the tee-shirt. Better that you and other programmers spend effort on exactly what this thread is about: putting interesting features into Morpheus, Gnutella, etc. Better yet, using this P2P power to do a better version of either. But factoring challenges are old news. You're about 5 years too late (not that it was terribly interesting even 5 years ago...). --Tim May From sarrison at pacificresearch.org Mon Sep 3 18:28:56 2001 From: sarrison at pacificresearch.org (Sonia Arrison) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 18:28:56 -0700 Subject: PRI's Privacy Press Conference Message-ID: Dear Declan, Your Politech readers might be interested in our upcoming privacy press conference for the release of our new privacy paper: "Consumer Privacy: A Free Choice Approach." The event is this Wednesday, Sept. 5th, at the National Press Club in D.C. (see below). -Sonia **************************************** Sonia Arrison Director, Center for Freedom and Technology Pacific Research Institute 755 Sansome Street, Suite 450 San Francisco, CA 94111 415-989-0833 x107 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: DAWN DINGWELL August 30, 2001 (415) 989-0833, ext. 136 MEDIA ADVISORY Government Privacy Regulations will Harm Consumers, Innovation, and Free Speech, Study Says Press Conference: Wednesday, September 5, 2001 9:30 A.M. National Press Club Lisagor Room -- 13th Floor 529 14th Street, NW Washington, DC WHO: Sally C. Pipes, President, Pacific Research Institute (PRI) Sonia Arrison, Director, Center for Freedom and Technology (PRI); Author, Consumer Privacy: A Free Choice Approach Eugene Volokh, Fellow in Legal Studies (PRI); Constitutional & Copyright Law Professor, UCLA Law School WHAT: Press conference releasing Consumer Privacy: A Free Choice Approach, a new study from the San Francisco-based Pacific Research Institute. The speakers will discuss the study's findings, including: 7 Why self-regulation, contract law, and new technologies available to the public are the best way to protect consumer privacy 7 How federal privacy proposals will harm consumer interests, and threaten to impede tech innovation and free speech 7 An overview of more than a dozen technologies available to consumers that allow them to protect their own privacy, as well as emerging technologies WHEN: Wednesday, September 5, 2001 9:30 A.M. WHERE: National Press Club Lisagor Room -- 13th Floor 529 14th Street, NW Washington, DC 20045 WHY: Dozens of bills addressing consumer privacy are pending in Congress and state legislatures nationwide. In response, PRI will release its latest study, Consumer Privacy: A Free Choice Approach, demonstrating why expanding consumer choice through free-market alternatives is the best policy for protecting consumer privacy, including protection from government intrusion. www.pacificresearch.org ### ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. Declan McCullagh's photographs are at http://www.mccullagh.org/ To subscribe to Politech: http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- End forwarded message ----- From nuno.pinho at netvisao.pt Mon Sep 3 10:55:35 2001 From: nuno.pinho at netvisao.pt (Nuno Pinho) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 18:55:35 +0100 Subject: Password Message-ID: <000a01c134a1$a5e96540$e2b081d9@netvisao.pt> Please send the password of McAfee to this email: ricardo.pinho at iol.pt Please . -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 566 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ffapro at mail2agent.com Mon Sep 3 18:13:42 2001 From: ffapro at mail2agent.com (ffapro at mail2agent.com) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 19:13:42 -0600 (GMT) Subject: DEPOSIT $100 - $400 IN YOUR BANK ACCOUNT DAILY! 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Please make sure you include the email address in which you wish to have removed so we can make sure that you will never again receive an email from us. Thank you for your time and God Bless You! This email ad is being sent in full compliance with U.S. Senate Bill 1618, Title #3, Section 301." (which states "A statement that further transmissions of unsolicited commercial electronic mail to the recipient by the person who initiates transmission of the message may be stopped at no cost to the recipient by sending a removal request to the above email address.) From info at giganetstore.com Mon Sep 3 11:33:15 2001 From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 19:33:15 +0100 Subject: ...uma obra Imortal ! Message-ID: <0890d1533180391WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com> Jorge Amado deixou-nos... ..uma obra imortal! Reunimos, só para si, as mais célebres obras do talentoso escritor, que imortalizou o espírito, a cor e a vida da Baía. 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Chama-se Tieta, e Jorge Amado foi arrancá-la ao Agreste, onde era pastora de cabras... ----- Tenda dos Milagres Na ânsia de nos apresentar a figura de um certo Pedro Archanjo em sua inteireza, o autor encheu-se de ambição, quis abarcar o mundo com as pernas, misturou tempos e espaços romanescos, alhos e bugalhos. ----- Dona Flôr e seus dois maridos É, com efeito, uma história fascinante e pitoresca esta de Dona Flor, viúva alegre da Bahia, cujas noites de amor são atormentadas pelas visitas do seu defunto marido, anjo estranhamente tutelar, bem agarrado, no entanto, aos gozos e aos bens terrenos de outrora. ----- Gabriela Cravo e Canela É sobretudo um romance de amor: o amor da mulata Gabriela, heróico, selvático, primitivo e livre. De uma sensualidade esfuziante, plena de alegria, enamorada da vida mesmo quando esta a atraiçoa, Gabriela transforma-se no símbolo da liberdade do amor. ----- ABC de Castro Alves Um baiano fala de outro baiano. Castro Alves, poeta do povo, defensor da abolição da escravatura e da implantação da República, bardo dos escravos e dos humildes, é restituído, através da palavra de ouro de Jorge Amado, á sua dimensão de figura exemplar das letras brasileiras. ----- Gato Malhado e a Andorinha Sinhá “A história de amor do Gato Malhado e da Andorinha Sinhá, eu a escrevi em 1948, em Paris, onde então residia com minha mulher e meu filho João Jorge, quando este completou um ano de idade: presente de aniversário; para que um dia ele a lesse. Colocado junto aos pertences da criança, o texto se perdeu e somente em 1976, João, bulindo em velhos guardados, o reencontrou, dele tomando finalmente conhecido.(...)” Ver mais produtos » ----- Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site http:\\www.giganetstore.com , ir à edição do seu registo e retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das nossas promoções e novos serviços -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 7307 bytes Desc: not available URL: From schear at lvcm.com Mon Sep 3 19:39:23 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 19:39:23 -0700 Subject: Gnutella remailers (was Re: Moral Crypto) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010903173020.031fde98@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010903193312.03229740@pop3.lvcm.com> At 08:55 PM 9/3/2001 -0400, V. Alex Brennen wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > >On Mon, 3 Sep 2001, Steve Schear wrote: > > > > At 12:34 PM 9/2/2001 -0700, Tim May wrote: > > > > > >"Anyone a remailer, anyone a mint" is one strong approach. > > > > I know this suggestion has been made before, probably by myself, but it > > seems the remailer programmers may be missing a good opportunity in not > > pursuing the inclusion of remailer code in the popular Gnutella cleints > > (e.g., LimeWire). They advertise they are looking for new "content > > communities." http://www.limewire.com/index.jsp/formgroup I don't see any > > reason why email can't be added as a new form of content. > >I haven't heard this before. It's a good idea. > >I've tried to contact limewire about working with them on some >distributed resources coding concepts. I found them unreceptive. >They suck. Maybe you're suggestion was too far afield from their ambitions for LimeWire. Maybe they thought you were a jerk. Maybe... In any case Lime is getting great reviews from friends regarding easy of learning, use and flexibility. It seems that if a few of the technically competent want to raise this issue with them perhaps we should discuss this a bit to see if we can reach something of a consensus and then have on of the coders make contact with Steve Cho at scho at limepeer.com From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Sep 3 18:10:12 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 20:10:12 -0500 (CDT) Subject: moral crypto In-Reply-To: <20010903142410.A2913@cybershamanix.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Sep 2001 mix at cybershamanix.com wrote: > What's with this moral crypto jive? Nomen sounds like Faustine > in drag. Who cares if Osama benefits from crypto - he isn't any > greater danger to our much tattered peace and freedom than > Dubbya. Probably a lot less. That's a stretch but you're welcome to your own opinion. Dubbya can be voted out of office, Osama and most other nutcases can't. -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Sep 3 18:11:20 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 20:11:20 -0500 (CDT) Subject: OPT: Fwd: [PGP-USERS] Another Flaw in PGP found. (fwd) Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 313 bytes Desc: not available URL: From fm at espace.net Mon Sep 3 12:17:24 2001 From: fm at espace.net (Fearghas McKay) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 20:17:24 +0100 Subject: Fwd: [PGP-USERS] Another Flaw in PGP found. Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text From vab at cryptnet.net Mon Sep 3 17:55:19 2001 From: vab at cryptnet.net (V. Alex Brennen) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 20:55:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Moral Crypto In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010903173020.031fde98@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 1610 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Sep 3 19:04:16 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 21:04:16 -0500 (CDT) Subject: BitTorrent 2.2 is out (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 12:57:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Bram Cohen To: People who supposedly write code Subject: Re: BitTorrent 2.2 is out On Sun, 2 Sep 2001, Bram Cohen wrote: > I just pushed out BitTorrent 2.2, the protocols are now frozen. Silly me, I forgot to include the url - http://bitconjurer.org/BitTorrent/ -Bram Cohen "Markets can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent" -- John Maynard Keynes From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Sep 3 19:22:19 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 21:22:19 -0500 Subject: Slashdot | A Number For Everything Message-ID: <3B943ADB.D0B786E7@ssz.com> http://slashdot.org/yro/01/09/04/0033211.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From juicy at melontraffickers.com Mon Sep 3 21:57:09 2001 From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 21:57:09 -0700 Subject: Gnutella remailers Message-ID: <65a9be17a1236f6260aa16a77ae46faa@melontraffickers.com> > I know this suggestion has been made before, probably by myself, but it > seems the remailer programmers may be missing a good opportunity in not > pursuing the inclusion of remailer code in the popular Gnutella cleints > (e.g., LimeWire). They advertise they are looking for new "content > communities." http://www.limewire.com/index.jsp/formgroup I don't see any > reason why email can't be added as a new form of content. Remailers are trickier than other P2P applications because of the problem of sending the mail out. If one of the P2P users gets "volunteered" to be the outgoing portal for some harrasing mail, he won't be running the client for long. However if the recipients are restricted to users of the P2P network then this is not a problem. An anonymous email application just for P2P users would be interesting. It could be part of a continuum of applications like anonymous chat with varying degrees of real-time delivery. KNet, knet.sourceforge.net, is a new project on P2P anonymous chat. If that works, then email could be done by adding some kind of queueing feature which would hold messages for delivery until the recipient connects to the P2P network. There wouldn't be many problems with complaints about abuse because everyone would be volunteering to receive anonymous mail/chat by virtue of using the network. Probably the biggest complaint people would have is untraceable spam. It's already a nuisance with other chat systems. If the anonymous comm system has per-user traffic limits or some other way of handling spam then it could be a good basis for no holds barred discussions and data exchange. From schear at lvcm.com Mon Sep 3 22:42:19 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 22:42:19 -0700 Subject: Gnutella remailers In-Reply-To: <65a9be17a1236f6260aa16a77ae46faa@melontraffickers.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010903223344.031f7730@pop3.lvcm.com> At 09:57 PM 9/3/2001 -0700, A. Melon wrote: > > I know this suggestion has been made before, probably by myself, but it > > seems the remailer programmers may be missing a good opportunity in not > > pursuing the inclusion of remailer code in the popular Gnutella cleints > > (e.g., LimeWire). They advertise they are looking for new "content > > communities." http://www.limewire.com/index.jsp/formgroup I don't see any > > reason why email can't be added as a new form of content. > >Remailers are trickier than other P2P applications because of the problem >of sending the mail out. If one of the P2P users gets "volunteered" >to be the outgoing portal for some harrasing mail, he won't be running >the client for long. I believe Ian Goldberg came up with a rather elegant solution: allow the the clients to only function as entry and middlemen remailers and use throwaway accounts at hotmail or similar fall guys as the exit points. >Probably the biggest complaint people would have is untraceable spam. >It's already a nuisance with other chat systems. If the anonymous comm >system has per-user traffic limits or some other way of handling spam >then it could be a good basis for no holds barred discussions and data >exchange. Hashcash or a similar computation-based postage (e.g., the camram project, if it ever gets itself together) is probably a better solution to SPAM (untraceable or not). steve From profits4u34 at hotmail.com Mon Sep 3 23:20:52 2001 From: profits4u34 at hotmail.com (profits4u34 at hotmail.com) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 23:20:52 Subject: Let us Pay your way into 3 Rapidly growing MLM companies Message-ID: <200109040429.XAA32011@einstein.ssz.com> THE WANNA BEE FOUNDATION Let us put the pieces together for YOU The Wanna Bee Foundation is NOT a Multi-Level Company. It has NO matrix or payout. We are not putting hundreds of thousands of people into MLM programs, not even hundreds, only a few will get this opportunity to have a chance to become a member of the "Wanna Bee Foundation". Your entry is voted on by the members, then placed into 3 MLM companies (FREE). Only after you are in profit in at least 2 of them, are you required to pay your monthly dues to each of the companies. The annual fee is $29.95. Each individual company will send you a recruiting kit after you become a member. GUARANTEE -- We guarantee you to be in profit before you are asked to complete the applications FOR THE INDIVIDUAL COMPANIES. We will mail out, at no extra cost to you, from one to three million offers a month. All members joining from this email advertising will be placed in all of your downlines. ALL THIS FOR $29.95. PLEASE VISIT: http://hometown.aol.com/joinwbf FOR MORE INFORMATION ABOUT THIS EXCITING OPPORTUNITY. If you are accepted by the WBF, they pay your way into all three companies (any kit fees, plus first month fees). When you are in profit in at least two of the three companies, you are asked to join, and then have 10 days to respond or you lose your position on the team. As a Safelist Emailer member, they mail the WBF information with your ID on it. You even get a copy of the leads that your email advertisement generated (generally between 800 to 3000 per month). You may also use the same leads for any purpose you choose, they can be emailed to you. Now, with each WBF member getting from one to three million email adds sent each month, that adds up to millions + millions of people world wide getting our message each and every month. With this system, getting only one one-hundredth of one percent on the Internet, this will still put new members in each company for YOU every month. Then, the new members will team with you to do more mailings. This message is sent in compliance of the new email bill HR 1910. Under Bill HR 1910 passed by the 106th US Congress on May 24, 1999, this message can not be considered spam as long as we include the way to be removed. Per Section HR 1910., please type REMOVE in the subject line and reply to this email. All removal requests are handled personally and immediately From freematt at coil.com Mon Sep 3 21:37:31 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 00:37:31 -0400 Subject: Scottish CCTV Surveillance Fails To Cut Crime Rate Message-ID: CCTV fails to cut crime rate http://www.edinburghnews.com/news.cfm?id=EN01146615 INCREASES in fighting and abusive behaviour in an East Lothian town have cast doubt on the effectiveness of closed circuit television. Traders in Haddington said the CCTV system had done little to reduce i ncidents of drug dealing and abuse in the area. Police were called out last weekend after a report of a youth in a white car "driving like crazy" in the town centre. However, when police attended the scene, the trouble had stopped and no-one was willing to come forward. In a second incident, police were called to a fight outside the Gardener's Arms public house, but when they arrived the people involved had dispersed. The criticism comes as a review of CCTV systems in East Lothian is under way. Traders are disappointment the CCTV has not done more to prevent crime. One said it had produced "little result". Monday, 27th August 2001 __________________________________________________________________________ Distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. --- ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************** From drsk at doctor.com Tue Sep 4 02:10:19 2001 From: drsk at doctor.com (drsk at doctor.com) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 01:10:19 -0800 Subject: FOREVER YOUNG -samples Message-ID: <37138.048842430560000.240436@localhost> World wide well known revolutionary program of natural rejuvenation: NO CHEMICALS! NO SURGERY! NO LASER! NO RECOVERY! NOT TRICKS! Wrinkles, eye bags, dark circles, pigmentation, scars, cellulite, stretch marks, acne, sagging skin, aging marks and all kinds of skin disorders diminish after first application and disappear gradually! Samples for 5 days $60 Free samples sh&h $20 E-mail us: drsk at dr.com Subject: Forever young Body text: DETAILS From vab at cryptnet.net Mon Sep 3 22:34:48 2001 From: vab at cryptnet.net (V. Alex Brennen) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 01:34:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: ANNC: cks-0.0.5 Released (fwd) Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 2196 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pieterg at altavista.com Tue Sep 4 02:10:37 2001 From: pieterg at altavista.com (Pieter Grobler) Date: 4 Sep 2001 02:10:37 -0700 Subject: Please Sign This Petition - Zimbabwe Message-ID: <20010904091037.24635.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From pieterg at altavista.com Tue Sep 4 02:17:49 2001 From: pieterg at altavista.com (Pieter Grobler) Date: 4 Sep 2001 02:17:49 -0700 Subject: Please Sign This Petition - Zimbabwe Message-ID: <20010904091749.25139.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From vab at cryptnet.net Tue Sep 4 00:14:50 2001 From: vab at cryptnet.net (V. Alex Brennen) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 03:14:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Gnutella remailers (was Re: Moral Crypto) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010903193312.03229740@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 3391 bytes Desc: not available URL: From vab at cryptnet.net Tue Sep 4 00:38:19 2001 From: vab at cryptnet.net (V. Alex Brennen) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 03:38:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Factoring challenges considered boring In-Reply-To: <200109040102.f84123f27550@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Sep 2001, Tim May wrote: > On Monday, September 3, 2001, at 05:55 PM, V. Alex Brennen wrote: > > > > I've started on the very beginnings of a GNU Distributed Computing > > client to attack the RSA RC5 and factoring challenges. > > Jeez, why waste time on such an old-hat idea? > > I'm serious. The latest factoring and RC5 challenges do nothing new. The goal is to develop an architecture to allow access to collective processing power. Hopefully, much like this mailing list, it will drive the establishment of a sense of community and serve to reinforce a developing culture. The reinforcement of the idea of community computing, networking, and information, resources can help drive a desire for a greater realization of those things and the development of supporting group of people for extensions of those ideas. For example, ideas like FreeNet, which are derived from the cryptoanarchist school of thought. So, the answer to your question is that it's interesting to me and I'm the one doing the programming. If you can come up with something more interesting I'll probably be happy to work on it. But I'm not really interested in padding the pockets of the Lime Group, LCC. and I'm buzz worded out on P2P. What I like is the idea of trying to revitalize the cypherpunk movement - even a very tiny little bit. I'm really very disappointed with the Individual Sovereignty/Cryptoanarchy subculture lately. It seems to be running out of steam. There seems to be very few people working on interesting things. Coderpunks is a ghost town with occasional spam rolling through like a tumble weed, and cypherpunks seems to be obsessed with Jim Bell like a bunch of little girls over the back street boys. Is anyone else writing code? - VAB From contactus at collectiondirectory.com Tue Sep 4 06:27:48 2001 From: contactus at collectiondirectory.com (AR Management Consultants) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 06:27:48 -0700 Subject: Attention Collection Agencies and Attorneys, advertise your business for as little as 19 cents per day! Message-ID: <200109041327.f84DRcO28724@ak47.algebra.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 27664 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ENCorperations at aaemail.com Tue Sep 4 06:42:21 2001 From: ENCorperations at aaemail.com (ENCorporation) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 06:42:21 Subject: FOR WOMEN ONLY(but men buy it to)!! Message-ID: <200109041144.GAA01250@einstein.ssz.com> AT LONG LAST!! Women can now enjoy physical sensation safely and naturally, with this non-presciption gel. (Over half the customers are men who buy for their ladies) For more information, send an email to ENCorperations at aaemail.com This message was provided by the service of ENCorporations. From ENCorperations at aaemail.com Tue Sep 4 07:06:30 2001 From: ENCorperations at aaemail.com (ENCorporation) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 07:06:30 Subject: FOR WOMEN ONLY!!!(but men buy it to) Message-ID: <200109041208.HAA01707@einstein.ssz.com> AT LONG LAST!! Women can now enjoy physical sensation safely and naturally, with this non-presciption gel. (Over half the customers are men who buy for their ladies) For more information, send an email to ENCoperations at aaemail.com This message was provided by the service of ENCorporations. From sidney.r.phillips at Boeing.com Tue Sep 4 07:27:58 2001 From: sidney.r.phillips at Boeing.com (Phillips, Sidney R) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 07:27:58 -0700 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <56EC06CAC5361C478AF8BE6BC8CB3E36665B45@XCH-SEA-14.nw.nos.bo eing.com> auth 45e8a0f4 subscribe cypherpunks sidney.r.phillips at Boeing.com From sethf at sethf.com Tue Sep 4 04:52:23 2001 From: sethf at sethf.com (Seth Finkelstein) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 07:52:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: BESS vs The Google Search Engine (Cache, Groups, Images) Message-ID: Available at: http://sethf.com/anticensorware/bess/google.php BESS vs The Google Search Engine (Cache, Groups, Images) Abstract: This report examines how N2H2's censorware deals with archives of large amount of information. Three features are examined from the Google search engine (Cache, Groups, Images). N2H2/BESS is found to ban the cached pages everywhere, pass porn in groups, and consider all image searching to be pornography. The general problems of censorware versus large archives are discussed (i.e., why censorware is impelled to situations such as banning the Google cache). -- Seth Finkelstein Consulting Programmer sethf at sethf.com http://sethf.com http://archive.nytimes.com/2001/07/19/technology/circuits/19HACK.html BESS's Secret LOOPHOLE: http://sethf.com/anticensorware/bess/loophole.php ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************** From freematt at coil.com Tue Sep 4 05:29:06 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 08:29:06 -0400 Subject: BESS vs The Google Search Engine (Cache, Groups, Images) Message-ID: From Dynah022 at hotmail.com Tue Sep 4 08:36:39 2001 From: Dynah022 at hotmail.com (Dynah022 at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 08:36:39 Subject: [-= YOU WON a $1,000.00 Cash Or 4 Airplane Ticket... =-] . 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From ericm at lne.com Tue Sep 4 10:21:33 2001 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 10:21:33 -0700 Subject: Moral Crypto In-Reply-To: <20010904123852.A12545@cluebot.com>; from declan@well.com on Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 12:38:52PM -0400 References: <3B92258B.22440.158837BA@localhost> <200109021938.f82JcQf23312@slack.lne.com> <20010904123852.A12545@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20010904102133.A30958@slack.lne.com> On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 12:38:52PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: > On Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 12:34:31PM -0700, Tim May wrote: > > The other remailers can theoretically band together as some kind of > > guild and reject packets from "rogue" remailers, but there are numerous > > practical problems. Identifying a "rogue" remailer which "allows" > > packets from "baddies" (e.g, from Mormons, or free speech advocates) > > In the next five years or so, I would not be suprised to see a call > for federal licensing of remailers. I don't think that there is enough remailer traffic or remailers to require the feds to go throught the work of getting a law passed and setting up a licensing program. It's be nice if there was! It's more likely that remailers will get closed outright. There will probably be an ISP or email licensing program put into place, with the same "code of conduct" and/or mandatory logging that you think will be forced on remailers being forced on all email servers. Remailers would be found in violation of the order and shut down. Another way to kill remailers would be through anti-spam legislation that forbids "forging" email headers. We're already seeing some of this. Or, the feds will just set up a 'sting' on the remailer system by sending kiddie porn or bomb-making info through the remailer net and then busting each exit point in turn. It doesn't even need to be with charges which would stick in court, as almost anyone will fold when thrown in jail for a while and/or faced with huge legal bills. My guess is that the first or second is most likely. It won't even be targeted at remailers, just at regular email. Killing remailers will be a by-product of regulating the net. Eric From ericm at lne.com Tue Sep 4 10:28:59 2001 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 10:28:59 -0700 Subject: Gnutella remailers In-Reply-To: <20010904132116.C14093@cluebot.com>; from declan@well.com on Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 01:21:16PM -0400 References: <65a9be17a1236f6260aa16a77ae46faa@melontraffickers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20010903223344.031f7730@pop3.lvcm.com> <20010904132116.C14093@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20010904102859.B30958@slack.lne.com> On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 01:21:16PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: > On Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 10:42:19PM -0700, Steve Schear wrote: > > I believe Ian Goldberg came up with a rather elegant solution: allow the > > the clients to only function as entry and middlemen remailers and use > > throwaway accounts at hotmail or similar fall guys as the exit points. > > Maybe, but it's vulnerable to a few things, I'd wager, if you're talking > about writing a client that would log in to a web-based mail service > and then send mail from within it: > > * Automated monitoring by Hotmail/Yahoo/Lycos Mail/etc. If an account > usually sends 10 messages/day, look for spikes in traffic two standard > deviations above the mean and temporarily block access to that account. > Or require human intervention to re-enable that account. > > * Anti-spam monitoring, similar to the above. What a remailer (who > logs into the service and and sends mail from within it, rather than > forging the From: line) would do is what a lot of spammers would like > to do too. One could instead bounce the traffic through the same mail servers that spammers use. Judging from the spam I get, most of those are poorly-admined sites thast don't know that they're being used to forward spam. Of course this isn't very moral. Eric From HWoody at freecongress.org Tue Sep 4 07:48:31 2001 From: HWoody at freecongress.org (Hannah Woody) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 10:48:31 -0400 Subject: Protecting Privacy, SIGN THIS LETTER Message-ID: Matt, I am the coordinator of the Coalition for Constitutional Liberties and we are currently circulating a letter to organizations about the privacy violations involved in the drug war. This letter does not call for legalization at all, it simply brings forth important privacy related issues. With this letter, we are calling for the Senate Judiciary Committee to ask the Director of the Office of National Drug Control Policy nominee, John Walters, if he will protect privacy. Please consider signing on and perhaps sending it to your list. Thanks! Email Hannah Woody at hwoody at freecongress.org with your name and business/organization. Coalition for Constitutional Liberties A project of the Free Congress Foundation's Center for Technology Policy 717 Second Street NE * Washington, DC 20002 * (202) 546-3000 * Fax (202) 543-5605 http://www.freecongress.org/ September 3, 2001 Sen. Patrick J. Leahy, Chairman Sen. Orrin G. Hatch, Ranking Member Senate Judiciary Committee United States Senate 224 Dirksen Office Building Washington, DC 20510 Re: Nomination of John Walters Dear Chairman Leahy, Senator Hatch and Members of the Senate Judiciary Committee: We are part of a broad coalition of groups concerned that the War on Drugs has degraded our privacy and civil liberties. We respectfully ask that the members of Committee consider raising the following privacy and civil liberties issues in connection with the nomination of John Walters to be the Director of the Office of National Drug Control Policy (Office of the White House). We intend by issuing this letter to signal neither support nor opposition to Mr. Walters' nomination. Rather, we hope are issuing the letter to urge members of the Committee to explore these issues in connection with Mr. Walters' nomination. As we set forth below, these issues include the use of new surveillance and investigative technologies, including the Carnivore/DCS1000 and Echelon systems, the "Know Your Customer" proposal of the Financial Action Task Force, asset forfeiture abuses, wiretaps and the drug war's sometimes corrupting influence on law enforcement itself. Rapid advances in technology have unfortunately brought with them new opportunities for the invasion of privacy in the form of programs like Carnivore, a system designed to allow the FBI to sift through vast quantities of Internet communications, or "Know Your Customer," -a proposed regulation requiring banks to collect personal financial information about their customers, "profile" them, and report "suspicious activities" to the Government. The misguided drug war is often a driving force behind these initiatives. "Know Your Customer" was prompted largely to further the drug war by combating drug-related money laundering. The FBI claims that Carnivore helps in narcotic investigations. We are concerned that "profiling," including racial profiling, appears to be an accepted component of the federal government's war on drugs. As noted by Georgetown University Law professor David Cole, characteristics of "drug courier profiles" used by U.S. Customs at airports have included: * Arrived late at night. * Arrived early in the morning. * Arrived in afternoon ... * One of first to deplane. * One of last to deplane. * Deplaned in the middle ... * Bought coach ticket. * Bought first class ticket ... * Used one-way ticket. * Used round-trip ticket ... * Traveled alone. * Traveled with a companion ... * Wore expensive clothing. * Dressed casually ... * Suspect was Hispanic. * Suspect was black female. In short, everyone anywhere at any time could fit the profile of a drug courier according to U.S. Customs officials. Court records confirm that highway patrol officers both in California and in New Jersey were taught to profile automobile drivers using minority status as an excuse to stop them, search their car, and in some cases, find drugs, a process known as racial profiling. In fact, civil rights organizations have charged that the DEA's own Operation Pipeline actually trains state and local law enforcement agents to engage in racial profiling. The extent to which our drug policy drives government surveillance and invasion of privacy is especially clear in the case of wiretaps. Three quarters of all wiretaps are authorized for narcotics investigations. The Administrative Office of the United States Courts reports that annually approximately 80 percent of conversations intercepted on wiretaps are innocent communications. In addition to government surveillance, there has been an increasing effort to have private businesses monitor their customers in order to fight the drug war. In the case of the "Know Your Customer" proposal now being resurrected by the FATF, the government attempts to force customer monitoring through regulation. More and more often, the DEA is using financial incentives to induce businesses to report personal information about their customers to the government. This undermines both consumer privacy and businesses' relationships with their customers. In April, the Albuquerque Journal reported that Amtrak was providing access to its ticketing database to the Drug Enforcement Administration. Amtrak provided agents with information such as passengers' last names, their destinations, their method of payment, and whether they were going on a round trip or only one-way. In return, Amtrak was given 10% of anything the government seized. Although controversy led Amtrak to discontinue the DEA's computer access, the company still provides information gleaned from the ticketing system to law enforcement officers and continues to receive a portion of assets seized on trains by agents. Several airlines reportedly have similar "cash for snooping and snitching" programs. The Amtrak case demonstrates the degree to which forfeiture laws are giving an incentive for law enforcement and private businesses to focus on seizing property supposedly related to drug crimes. The system is still very susceptible to abuse and one does not have to be convicted of a crime before their property is taken. Before the passage of the Civil Asset Forfeiture Act of 2000, which addressed some of the more egregious abuses, eighty percent of people who had property forfeited were never charged with a crime. While this number will likely become lower because of the reforms, the abuse of forfeiture laws continues. As reports (some of which were initiated by members of this Committee), have shown, the war on drugs has had a corrupting influence on the professionalism of law enforcement; one March 1999 GAO report described the problem as a "serious and continuing threat." We urge you to raise these issues with Mr. Walters and ask for assurances that he will reform the conduct of the drug war in order to address these problems and ensure that drug policies respect the privacy and other civil liberties of all Americans. If you have any questions or would like to discuss these issues further, please contact J. Bradley Jansen of the Free Congress Foundation at 202-204-5324 or by email at bjansen at freecongress.org . Respectfully, Paul M. Weyrich Founder and President Free Congress Foundation Lisa S. Dean Vice President for Technology Policy Free Congress Foundation Grover Norquist Karen Kerrigan President Chairman Americans for Tax Reform Small Business Survival Committee Tom DeWeese David Banisar President Deputy Director American Policy Center Privacy International, London Amy Ridenour Chuck Muth, Chairman President Michael D. Ostrolenk, Capital Hill Liason The National Center for Public Policy Research Republican Liberty Caucus Gordon S. Jones Eric E. Sterling President Association of Concerned Taxpayers The Criminal Justice Policy Foundation Dr. Jane Orient, M.D. Carol W. LaGrasse Executive Director President Association of American Physicians and Surgeons Property Rights Foundation of America, Inc. Larry Cirignano Joseph Eldred President President and Founder CatholicVote.org God Bless America Dr. Alexander Tabarrok,Vice James Landrith Vice President and Director of Research Editor and Publisher The Independent Institute The Multiracial Activist & Abolitionist Examiner Benjamin Crocker Works Hank Whitmore Executive Director Chairman The Strategic Issues Research Institute of the United States People Against Church Taxation Eric Johnson Audrey Mullen Chairman Consultant Young Americans for Freedom Advocacy Ink Dottie Feder Miriam Archer Vice President Director of Operations Eagle Forum of Wisconsin Christian Coalition of California Ronald D. Bain Robert D. Lonn Former Chairman Consultant/Planner Libertarian Party of Colorado NW Council of Government & Associates Patricia J. Owens Peter J. LaGrasse Executive Director Chairman Wisconsin State Sovereignty Coalition Board of Assessors (New York) Duane Royal Galen E. Alexander Sampson County Republican Executive Committee (North Carolina) Founder & Chairman Ohio Conservative Alliance Victoria T. DeLacy Prince William & Manassas Family Alliance (Virginia) Warren Nelson Founder & Commander Helen E. Farson Ector County Volunteers (Tennessee) Phonetic Bible Printing Committee Roy S. Gillinson, M.D. ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************** From mmotyka at lsil.com Tue Sep 4 10:59:08 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 10:59:08 -0700 Subject: speech + action References: <3B8FD09A.3F0BF50E@lsil.com> <20010831185402.A429@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <3B95166C.481C3D03@lsil.com> Declan McCullagh wrote: > > On Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 10:59:54AM -0700, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: > > Sure, I mention it because despite its being non-functional and > > unpunishable it seemed to have been brought into the courtroom with the > > purpose of spicing up the case. > > Sure. If you commit unacceptable-to-the-gvt *actions* and also spend a > lot of time talking about how government officials should be > assassinated, you may reasonably expect those statements to be used > against you during your trial. > > But that is a far cry from your earlier government-has-this-power > position, from which you're now backtracking. > > -Declan > Not so much backtracking as thinking out loud. Just musing on how the letter of the law, its constitutionality, enforcement and even the reasoning behind its creation are not always lined up so well. 18 U.S.C. 23 1 contains the seeds of the speech+action idea. Mike From tcmay at got.net Tue Sep 4 11:19:43 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 11:19:43 -0700 Subject: speech + action In-Reply-To: <3B95166C.481C3D03@lsil.com> Message-ID: <200109041822.f84IMjf31760@slack.lne.com> On Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 10:59 AM, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: > Declan McCullagh wrote: >> >> On Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 10:59:54AM -0700, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: >>> Sure, I mention it because despite its being non-functional and >>> unpunishable it seemed to have been brought into the courtroom with >>> the >>> purpose of spicing up the case. >> >> Sure. If you commit unacceptable-to-the-gvt *actions* and also spend a >> lot of time talking about how government officials should be >> assassinated, you may reasonably expect those statements to be used >> against you during your trial. >> >> But that is a far cry from your earlier government-has-this-power >> position, from which you're now backtracking. >> >> -Declan >> > Not so much backtracking as thinking out loud. Just musing on how the > letter of the law, its constitutionality, enforcement and even the > reasoning behind its creation are not always lined up so well. > > 18 U.S.C. 23 1 contains the seeds of the speech+action idea. > Please explain. You made the first assertion of this, then "backslid" as people poked holes in your argument, now you appear to be swinging back in the other direction merely by asserting something about "seeds." Could you give a cite for any prosecutions, or are you just speculating that "Happy Fun Court" will not be "amused" by free speech? Comment: It seems to me we are seeing way too many people hitting the panic button, speculating about some of us getting shot by agents of happy fun courts, claiming that merely using secrecy methods is spoliation, arguing that speech is being criminalized, and that, in essence, we'd all better just slink away from these free speech and crypto thoughtcrimes. Fuck that. Don't let the wuss ninnies scare you off. --TIm May From v342vfyt at msn.com Tue Sep 4 08:21:29 2001 From: v342vfyt at msn.com (v342vfyt at msn.com) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 11:21:29 -0400 Subject: Time for a Coffee? 2780 Message-ID: <200109040315.UAA19393@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 906 bytes Desc: not available URL: From schear at lvcm.com Tue Sep 4 11:32:36 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 11:32:36 -0700 Subject: Official Anonymizing In-Reply-To: <200109041749.NAA26560@granger.mail.mindspring.net> References: <20010904125751.A13920@cluebot.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20010831183757.03a22020@pop3.norton.antivirus> <5.1.0.14.2.20010831183757.03a22020@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010904111319.03269ec0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 01:42 PM 9/4/2001 -0700, John Young wrote: >On ZKS selling anonymizing products that are publicly available >to governmental officials does raise an issue of whether officials >should, or should be able to, conceal their official identities when >working cyberspace in an official capacity. I think not, though >it might be as impossible to get officials to comply as with >terrorists so long as the technology is there. I recall reading last week that an Oregon Supreme Court decision makes mandatory that state LE operate only in the clear (no pseudo-anon identities). Prosecutors are wringing their hands. steve From andrew.mcmeikan at mitswa.com.au Mon Sep 3 20:48:26 2001 From: andrew.mcmeikan at mitswa.com.au (McMeikan, Andrew) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 11:48:26 +0800 Subject: my name and address Message-ID: <7644F1D1E938EC4B93465E25544B253F099B08@mits_perth_com1.mitswa.com.au> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 2352 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gbroiles at well.com Tue Sep 4 12:18:25 2001 From: gbroiles at well.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 12:18:25 -0700 Subject: Moral Crypto In-Reply-To: <20010904123852.A12545@cluebot.com> References: <200109021938.f82JcQf23312@slack.lne.com> <3B92258B.22440.158837BA@localhost> <200109021938.f82JcQf23312@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010904112236.03706810@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 12:38 PM 9/4/2001 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: >In the next five years or so, I would not be suprised to see a call >for federal licensing of remailers. Some of the more mainstream >remailer operators might even go along with it, eventually, calling >for a "voluntary-mandatory" code of conduct and industry self- >regulation. Rather than a direct ban on remailers, I think a creeping expansion of the DMCA is more likely, and a greater threat. Instead of making remailing a criminal act - where only law enforcement is able to chase violators - it's more effective to change liability rules, empowering lots of aggrieved parties to do their own takedowns. The civil version of the DMCA has already been more effective in limiting programmer speech than 20 years of ITAR and BXA regs were - not because the penalties are scarier, but because they're swifter, more certain, and applied to upstream providers instead of actual infringers, which changes those providers into reluctant (but effective) local enforcers. (this is just a corporate/institutional version of "the policeman inside", discussed eventually on the list every time the "make bombs d00d" topic occurs - see ) Whereas many people reasonably calculated that their odds of being successfully prosecuted under a criminal enforcement scheme are very low - just look at the ratio of law enforcement agents to individuals using the Internet - broadening the categories of "enforcer" and "viable target" changes that calculation dramatically. By making every content provider a virtual prosecutor, and every ISP/web host/web page publisher/remailer a target, it's a lot easier to find someone to sue - and with that kind of risk in the air, potential targets get a lot more conservative and interested in suppressing the behavior in question. >I can envision a legal situation that is close to the Napster-Gnutella >controversy, where the entry points to the network are targets for the >RIAA/MPAA lawyers. Similarly, the entry points to the remailer network >may be targets under such a legal structure. Yeah - at least if the content isn't nested-encrypted, such that there's no reasonable way to identify content or its source. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at well.com "We have found and closed the thing you watch us with." -- New Delhi street kids From tcmay at got.net Tue Sep 4 12:28:29 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 12:28:29 -0700 Subject: Moral Crypto In-Reply-To: <20010904102133.A30958@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: <200109041931.f84JVSf32298@slack.lne.com> On Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 10:21 AM, Eric Murray wrote: > On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 12:38:52PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: >> On Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 12:34:31PM -0700, Tim May wrote: >>> The other remailers can theoretically band together as some kind of >>> guild and reject packets from "rogue" remailers, but there are >>> numerous >>> practical problems. Identifying a "rogue" remailer which "allows" >>> packets from "baddies" (e.g, from Mormons, or free speech advocates) >> >> In the next five years or so, I would not be suprised to see a call >> for federal licensing of remailers. > > I don't think that there is enough remailer traffic or remailers > to require the feds to go throught the work of getting a law passed > and setting up a licensing program. It's be nice if there was! > > It's more likely that remailers will get closed outright. Either one runs seriously afoul of the First Amendment. Remailers are publishers. Publishers cannot be "licensed," nor can they simply be closed down. There is no issue of the "public airwaves," which is what allowed the FCC to license broadcasters and to yank the licenses of those who ran afoul of various rules. One who takes in submissions, processes them according to his own proecedures, and then sends some output to other sites is a publisher. Further, it is doubtful than any of the oft-discussed "all packets must be traceable to a meatspace" person are constitutional. The little matter of "unsigned political fliers" comes to mind (though fascists like McCain, Feingold, Feinstein, and others are attempting to use "campaign finance reform" to require meatspace identities). And there are various practical enforceability issues, discussed here so often: -- the vast number of "degrees of freedom" in networks, intranets, mixes inside warehouses, wireless, transnational, regulatory arbitrage, stego, etc. I could write more on this, but I gotta go. --Tim May From declan at well.com Tue Sep 4 09:38:52 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 12:38:52 -0400 Subject: Moral Crypto In-Reply-To: <200109021938.f82JcQf23312@slack.lne.com>; from tcmay@got.net on Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 12:34:31PM -0700 References: <3B92258B.22440.158837BA@localhost> <200109021938.f82JcQf23312@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: <20010904123852.A12545@cluebot.com> On Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 12:34:31PM -0700, Tim May wrote: > The other remailers can theoretically band together as some kind of > guild and reject packets from "rogue" remailers, but there are numerous > practical problems. Identifying a "rogue" remailer which "allows" > packets from "baddies" (e.g, from Mormons, or free speech advocates) In the next five years or so, I would not be suprised to see a call for federal licensing of remailers. Some of the more mainstream remailer operators might even go along with it, eventually, calling for a "voluntary-mandatory" code of conduct and industry self- regulation. This code of conduct might mean refusing packets from some countries, keeping logs for a certain amount of time, etc. (Identity escrow, ala key escrow. Key escrow died because of business pressure. No similar pressure exists against identity escrow.) In practice, it will naturally have limited effect, since it's easy enough to send mail to an offshore remailer, and any U.S. law will spur development and deployment of non-U.S. services. And bin Ladin can probably figure out how to get an AOL account. Then again, other countries, at least the larger OECD ones, may follow suit. Probably in those other nations, there will be few if any constitutional safeguards prohibiting legislatures from enacting such laws. Even in the U.S., I'm not sure why it would be immediately obvious that such a law would be found to be unconstitutional. The usual cites, such as McIntyre, deal with the most protected form of anonymous communication, political speech about elected officials, not the multiple horsemen who can be relied on to trot about during debates. I can envision a legal situation that is close to the Napster-Gnutella controversy, where the entry points to the network are targets for the RIAA/MPAA lawyers. Similarly, the entry points to the remailer network may be targets under such a legal structure. Underground remailers will always exist, and will be used for high-value transactions (let's hope enough remailers would exist to provide enough security), but a robust system that's also mainstream may not. I'm not saying this is especially likely, but it is a scenario that's worth contemplating as a long-term possibility. -Declan From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Sep 4 12:40:22 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 12:40:22 -0700 Subject: Errata - Re: Cypherpunks List Info In-Reply-To: <200109030300.f83300h24272@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010904123821.0310f0f0@idiom.com> Infonex.com is the same system as cyberpass, so it's presumably dead now. The information on UNsubscribing still should be there, since some people may need to do that, but subscriptions don't need to be. At 08:00 PM 09/02/2001 -0700, cpunk at lne.com wrote: >Cypherpunks Distributed Remailers list info. > >Last updated: 8/22/01 > >This message is also available at http://www.lne.com/cpunk > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Infonex: > >Subscription: "subscribe cypherpunks" to majordomo at infonex.com >Unsubscription: "unsubscribe cypherpunks" to majordomo at infonex.com >Help: "help cypherpunks" to majordomo at infonex.com >Posting address: cypherpunks at infonex.com >Filtering policy: raw >Message Modification policy: no modification >Privacy policy: ??? > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- From declan at well.com Tue Sep 4 09:57:51 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 12:57:51 -0400 Subject: News: "U.S. May Help Chinese Evade Net Censorship" In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010831183757.03a22020@pop3.norton.antivirus>; from gbroiles@well.com on Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 06:48:24PM -0700 References: <5.1.0.14.2.20010831183757.03a22020@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <20010904125751.A13920@cluebot.com> On Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 06:48:24PM -0700, Greg Broiles wrote: > When you talk about "collaborating" and ZKS selling beta software to the > NSA, are you saying you've got information that ZKS gave the NSA access to > more information than the general public got, and/or that the NSA got their > access or information meaningfully earlier than the general public? > > If that's the case, that's interesting, but that's too serious a claim to > let pass by as an unstated implication. > > If that's not the case - and they had the same access to the Freedom beta > code that the rest of us outsiders/Cypherpunks/critics/commentators did - > then I don't see an issue here. Right. Selling the same products to the Feds that are available to the general public is not generally objectionable, and I don't see what the issue is with ZKS here. One might as well complain about the NSA buying symbolic debuggers. -Declan From declan at well.com Tue Sep 4 10:03:57 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 13:03:57 -0400 Subject: Tim's Tips on Avoiding Prosecution In-Reply-To: <200109011605.f81G51f18011@slack.lne.com>; from tcmay@got.net on Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 09:01:56AM -0700 References: <3.0.6.32.20010831181443.00867460@pop.sprynet.com> <200109011605.f81G51f18011@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: <20010904130357.A14093@cluebot.com> On Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 09:01:56AM -0700, Tim May wrote: > Specificity matters. If someone with some ability to influence urges his > followers to "Kill Jews," and some of them begin to, expect an > "incitement" (and perhaps "conspiracy") charge to stick against the > speaker. If someone mere opines that Jews should be killled, protected > speech. I suspect you may be right as a general rule. But if a federal prosecutor (or a state one, for that matter), is going to bring charges against someone for incitement or conspiracy in a case where some people have been killed, I suspect that a "should be killed" line may be enough to garner a conviction if you knew or should have known that folks would act on what you say. In other words, your thought processes at the time and your expectation of success matters. This is just a hunch; I haven't researched the caselaw here. -Declan From declan at well.com Tue Sep 4 10:11:12 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 13:11:12 -0400 Subject: How strong Can I? In-Reply-To: <200109020624.f826ODf21066@slack.lne.com>; from tcmay@got.net on Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 11:19:43PM -0700 References: <007401c1338c$132ae1e0$28279eac@computer> <200109020624.f826ODf21066@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: <20010904131112.B14093@cluebot.com> Also, if by "free distribution" you mean putting it on a web site, I recall you are technically required to inform the Export Authorities (aka the Department of Commerce BXA). Probably a felony if you don't, depending on whether you're distributing source or object code, though I doubt you'd be prosecuted, but you may want to check into this rather than relying on my hazy recollection. -Declan On Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 11:19:43PM -0700, Tim May wrote: > On Sunday, September 2, 2001, at 01:44 AM, Dave wrote: > > > Im writing a toy for personal use that i may give away sooner or later, > > are > > there limits on how strong i can make the crypto max key length for > > personal, > > use for free distrubtion inside the us? Not sure on the exact legalities > > involved if i gave it way... Some help would be nice. > > > > There are no restrictions whatsoever...except... > > -- you can't give certain kinds of crypto to Bad People (Hizbollah, > Bader-Meinhof, Kurds in Turkey (OK to give to Kurds in Iraq), and so > on...consult the List of Bad People). > > -- your program may be subject to a Secrecy Order, similar to the one > that silenced the inventor of the PhasorPhone. If this happens you will > not be able to disclose your invention to anyone and you may be unable > to even reveal that you are under such a Secrecy Order. > > Other than these possibilities, go for it, dude. > > --Tim May From declan at well.com Tue Sep 4 10:21:16 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 13:21:16 -0400 Subject: Gnutella remailers In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010903223344.031f7730@pop3.lvcm.com>; from schear@lvcm.com on Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 10:42:19PM -0700 References: <65a9be17a1236f6260aa16a77ae46faa@melontraffickers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20010903223344.031f7730@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <20010904132116.C14093@cluebot.com> On Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 10:42:19PM -0700, Steve Schear wrote: > I believe Ian Goldberg came up with a rather elegant solution: allow the > the clients to only function as entry and middlemen remailers and use > throwaway accounts at hotmail or similar fall guys as the exit points. Maybe, but it's vulnerable to a few things, I'd wager, if you're talking about writing a client that would log in to a web-based mail service and then send mail from within it: * Automated monitoring by Hotmail/Yahoo/Lycos Mail/etc. If an account usually sends 10 messages/day, look for spikes in traffic two standard deviations above the mean and temporarily block access to that account. Or require human intervention to re-enable that account. * Anti-spam monitoring, similar to the above. What a remailer (who logs into the service and and sends mail from within it, rather than forging the From: line) would do is what a lot of spammers would like to do too. * Contractual arrangements by the web-based mail operator that could, theoretically, make the remailer operator liable in some cases. Sorry to be such a downer today, but that doesn't seem like a wonderful solution -- at least after web-based mail services realize what you're doing and employ suitable technological/legal countermeasures. Perhaps an automated registration process might work,using a large number of accounts and automatically creating them as needed and discarding them when necessary. Though to escape (theoretical, in my hypothetical) legal liability, the initial setup and message-dumping would have to be done anonymously, raising the cost and hassle factor. -Declan From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Sep 4 13:25:07 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 13:25:07 -0700 Subject: The Privacy/Untraceability Sweet Spot - tools vs. services In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010904125157.03115b30@idiom.com> At 07:50 PM 08/31/2001 +0200, Nomen Nescio wrote: >But the more sophisticated technologies are not self-contained tools. >They require a supported and maintained infrastructure to operate. >Anonymous posters are painfully aware of how inadequate the current >remailer system is. A truly reliable and effective anonymity technology >will be more like a service than a tool. This means that the operators >choose to whom they will market and sell their services. It's a tough call. The services model has some obvious advantages - - business model, if they can develop one successfully, to fund enough servers, clients, jurisdictions, and ISPs to overcome the inertia, hassle, and dropout factor that make it hard to create and sustain a scalable secure system. ZKS doesn't appear to have succeeded, but perhaps an expensive system for more paranoid users or profitable applications (e.g. tax avoidance through jurisdictional arbitrage or tax evasion through money laundering) can win. - potentially higher software and service quality. - less subject to changing fads, e.g. a Napster failed - will Gnutella? But it has some serious drawbacks - - you have to trust the service, unless you can be sure it's designed with no way for the operators to trace the users, including subtle methods like making sure Usual Suspects get connected to compromised remailers. - centralization makes them attackable - Not everything's as centrally controllable as Julf's remailer was, but not everybody's as honest as he is about shutting down rather than continue service when vulnerable, and some governments are much more aggressive than Finland at attacking systems. - business models can fail - Napster Inc., ZKS aren't doing so well. - specialized markets may produce too small a user community, making it possible for eavesdroppers to watch the whole system. If there are only 100 players, you can pretty much tell who's using it, even if you don't know specifically who's talking to whom. For some target markets, this is ok, for instance if you're primarily trying to keep the communications patterns private from the other players in your market, rather than from outsiders, but for others it fails badly. For tool-based approaches, the ideal is to at least piggyback on some existing service, e.g. Apache, or Gnutella/Napster/etc., or ICQ/Jabber/AIM, so there are a large number of players and lots of cover traffic, making the system relatively sustainable and tracing difficult. From jya at pipeline.com Tue Sep 4 13:42:28 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 13:42:28 -0700 Subject: Official Anonymizing In-Reply-To: <20010904125751.A13920@cluebot.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20010831183757.03a22020@pop3.norton.antivirus> <5.1.0.14.2.20010831183757.03a22020@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <200109041749.NAA26560@granger.mail.mindspring.net> On ZKS selling anonymizing products that are publicly available to governmental officials does raise an issue of whether officials should, or should be able to, conceal their official identities when working cyberspace in an official capacity. I think not, though it might be as impossible to get officials to comply as with terrorists so long as the technology is there. Paul Sylverson, at NRL, took me to task recently for outing officials, claiming that one of the primary purposes of onion routing was to allow officials to conceal their actions in cyberspace. I answered that it was my opinion that officials had no right to conceal their identity when on the job, not the military, not the spooks, indeed, they should be obliged to reveal identity in cyberspace when at work, if not of the person then of the agency. Nobody has yet seen an fbi.gov in the logs, or nsa.mil/gov, though a few ucia.gov and nro.gov crop up, and the ubiquitous nscs.mil. That this would not apply to these officials in their private lives, that then they deserved fullest possible privacy protection. But none at all in their official roles. I propose that all anonymizers adopt a code of practice that any sale to officials of anonymizers or their use be disclosed to the public (I suggested this to ZKS early on when first meetings with the feds to explain the technology were being sometimes disclosed). That seems to be a reasonable response to officially-secret prowling and investigating cyberspace. If officials want to do that in secret they should obtain a public license, say to use onion, pipenet, remailers, or ZKS, Safeweb, and so on. That's a public license, not a government one, for a fee to help pay for the public's use without cost. At 12:57 PM 9/4/01 -0400, you wrote: >On Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 06:48:24PM -0700, Greg Broiles wrote: >> When you talk about "collaborating" and ZKS selling beta software to the >> NSA, are you saying you've got information that ZKS gave the NSA access to >> more information than the general public got, and/or that the NSA got their >> access or information meaningfully earlier than the general public? >> >> If that's the case, that's interesting, but that's too serious a claim to >> let pass by as an unstated implication. >> >> If that's not the case - and they had the same access to the Freedom beta >> code that the rest of us outsiders/Cypherpunks/critics/commentators did - >> then I don't see an issue here. > >Right. Selling the same products to the Feds that are available to the >general public is not generally objectionable, and I don't see what the >issue is with ZKS here. > >One might as well complain about the NSA buying symbolic debuggers. > >-Declan From frissell at panix.com Tue Sep 4 10:53:24 2001 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 13:53:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Border Control Protocol Failure Message-ID: But the question is: How can the Canadian Border Guards tell if a "letter from mom" is genuine? Major protocol failure. DCF >CANADA > >[John McCaslin, columnist for the Washington Times just returned from >vacation] > >U.S. passports are not required for entry into Canada, but as my 13-year-old >daughter and I rudely discovered during our northbound journey to climb >British Columbia's Mount Serendipity, a letter from "mom" is all but >mandatory. Upon our arrival at the Toronto airport, a female immigration >officer inquired if we carried a letter from my daughter's mother, giving >permission for her to travel with her dad. (I immediately wondered if >mothers are similarly expected to carry letters from fathers when traveling >with their children. I expect not.) When I replied that no such letter was >required under U.S. or Canadian law, my daughter was abruptly asked: "Does >your mother know you are on this trip?" Despite our mutual assurances that >mom all but packed bologna sandwiches for our much-anticipated mountain >trek, we were led to a special holding area where a second woman >interrogator soon launched an emotionally draining 15-minute >cross-examination that left my daughter in tears. "Is your mother aware that >you are on this trip?" my daughter was quizzed again. Yes. "Do you want to >be here?" Yes. "Are you sure?" Yes. "Is this your father?" Yes. Objecting, >for a second time, to the high degree of personal probing, I was warned that >such outbursts could land me in the Canadian gulag. "For all I know you >could be from Turkey," the woman said (I'm half Norwegian, half >Scotch-Irish). "Fortunately for you, you have an accent. Do you have any >criminal record?" At that point, seeing the tears well in my daughter's >eyes, I reached into my carry-on pack and retrieved my White House >correspondent's credentials, telling the officer to call George W. Bush if >she didn't believe me. "You don't have to get rude," she snapped. "For your >daughter's sake, you should be thanking me. Now you'll know next time." > >http://www.washtimes.com/national/inbeltway.htm From declan at well.com Tue Sep 4 11:17:52 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 14:17:52 -0400 Subject: Moral Crypto In-Reply-To: <20010904102133.A30958@slack.lne.com> References: <20010904123852.A12545@cluebot.com> <3B92258B.22440.158837BA@localhost> <200109021938.f82JcQf23312@slack.lne.com> <20010904123852.A12545@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010904141058.00a516a0@mail.well.com> At 10:21 AM 9/4/01 -0700, Eric Murray wrote: >I don't think that there is enough remailer traffic or remailers >to require the feds to go throught the work of getting a law passed >and setting up a licensing program. It's be nice if there was! Certainly not now, which is why I said I was talking about five years or so in the future. Going through the "work" can be something as simple as an attachment to a spending bill; unless it's controversial, it's truly not that difficult to do. Your point about ISPs as the targets for a "code of conduct" is a reasonable one, but the same analysis applies. Offshore ISPs will continue, at least at first, to host remailers, then perhaps be pressured into abandoning that plan if governments in other jurisdictions get sufficiently mobilized. Another point of attack, although more far-fetched, is restricting the sites to which network providers can carry traffic. A restriction like "knowingly providing connectiviting to a service that provides anonymous re-mailing capabilities." Then the helpful Feds will provide daily lists of offshore remailers. -Declan From declan at well.com Tue Sep 4 11:29:31 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 14:29:31 -0400 Subject: FC: PRI event 9/5 in DC: A "free choice approach" to privacy Message-ID: ********** From declan at well.com Tue Sep 4 11:31:13 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 14:31:13 -0400 Subject: Gnutella remailers In-Reply-To: <20010904102859.B30958@slack.lne.com>; from ericm@lne.com on Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 10:28:59AM -0700 References: <65a9be17a1236f6260aa16a77ae46faa@melontraffickers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20010903223344.031f7730@pop3.lvcm.com> <20010904132116.C14093@cluebot.com> <20010904102859.B30958@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: <20010904143113.A14876@cluebot.com> On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 10:28:59AM -0700, Eric Murray wrote: > One could instead bounce the traffic through the same mail servers > that spammers use. Judging from the spam I get, most of those > are poorly-admined sites thast don't know that they're being > used to forward spam. True, that's a possibility. But as anti-spam technology improves and social pressure increases (maybe not tomorrow, but certainly over the next few years), those sites will be far less useful than they are today. Open relay owners will close 'em up and RBLish block lists (perhaps more carefully targeted) will become more useful. I'd say that relying on open relays as a long-term solution to act as the exit point from a remailer chain is a poor strategy. -Declan From adam at homeport.org Tue Sep 4 11:33:21 2001 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 14:33:21 -0400 Subject: Official Anonymizing In-Reply-To: <200109041749.NAA26560@granger.mail.mindspring.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20010831183757.03a22020@pop3.norton.antivirus> <20010904125751.A13920@cluebot.com> <200109041749.NAA26560@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <20010904143321.A2385@weathership.homeport.org> On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 01:42:28PM -0700, John Young wrote: | I propose that all anonymizers adopt a code of practice that | any sale to officials of anonymizers or their use be disclosed | to the public (I suggested this to ZKS early on when first | meetings with the feds to explain the technology were being | sometimes disclosed). That seems to be a reasonable response | to officially-secret prowling and investigating cyberspace. Speaking for myself, I don't really want to know my customers any more than I absolutely must. If y'all are so willing to identify and treat differently one class of customers (spooks), I believe that you have no moral leg to stand on when a different class of customers (say, hispanics) are treated differently. If there's no morality bit in encryption, then there's no morality bit, and the fifth horsey of government can be as anonymous as the rest of us. Adam -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From declan at well.com Tue Sep 4 11:59:01 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 14:59:01 -0400 Subject: Official Anonymizing In-Reply-To: <200109041749.NAA26560@granger.mail.mindspring.net> References: <20010904125751.A13920@cluebot.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20010831183757.03a22020@pop3.norton.antivirus> <5.1.0.14.2.20010831183757.03a22020@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010904145248.025a7030@mail.well.com> At 01:42 PM 9/4/01 -0700, John Young wrote: >On ZKS selling anonymizing products that are publicly available >to governmental officials does raise an issue of whether officials >should, or should be able to, conceal their official identities when >working cyberspace in an official capacity. I think not, though >it might be as impossible to get officials to comply as with >terrorists so long as the technology is there. It seems to me that John is taking the first steps toward a general argument: That police should not be allowed to do undercover work. His argument, taken to its logical conclusion, would prevent police from infiltrating criminal organizations in meatspace (let's assume, for the moment, that we're talking about serious criminal acts against property and person, not victimless crimes). I propose that all anonymizers adopt a code of practice that >any sale to officials of anonymizers or their use be disclosed >to the public (I suggested this to ZKS early on when first >meetings with the feds to explain the technology were being >sometimes disclosed). That seems to be a reasonable response >to officially-secret prowling and investigating cyberspace. What happens when Anonymous Software Inc. sells its prepaid 300-minutes of anonymous browing kit through CompUSA and PC Warehouse? And, as others have pointed out, the people you most want to catch with this rule would have the strongest incentive to evade it. Anonymous remailers and browsing technology is user- and value-neutral. As a practical matter, it makes sense to assume that the Feds are using it. -Declan From djones at markmonitor.com Tue Sep 4 07:59:02 2001 From: djones at markmonitor.com (Markmonitor) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 14:59:02 +0000 Subject: .info landrush - pre-register now Message-ID: <0GJ500L5IJD5J5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Subject: .info Landrush Markmonitor, the worldwide leader in Internet intellectual property protection, is now accepting pre-registrations for the .info landrush period (September 12 -19). To date, Markmonitor has successfully registered over 92% of .info names requested by its customers. For more information and to set up an account, visit Markmonitor's Domain Solution Center at www.markmonitor.com today. In addition to registering your .info domain names, Markmonitor's Domain Solution Center can accommodate all of your domain registration needs, including: 1. High volume registration, in all gTLDs and over 150 ccTLDs 2. Global Domain Name Management (DNS, contact information) 3. Reporting 4. Renewal Management 5. Transfers and account consolidation Our Domain Solution Center is designed specifically to provide reliable and efficient domain registration and management tools for companies and law firms that register and manage large volumes of domain names. To arrange a complete demo of our Domain Solution Center, please e-mail us at custserv at markmonitor.com or call us at (800) 337-7520. To be removed from future e-mails from Markmonitor, please respond to custremove at markmonitor.com. From djones at markmonitor.com Tue Sep 4 07:59:02 2001 From: djones at markmonitor.com (Markmonitor) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 14:59:02 +0000 Subject: .info landrush - pre-register now Message-ID: <0GJ500L5LJD6J5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Subject: .info Landrush Markmonitor, the worldwide leader in Internet intellectual property protection, is now accepting pre-registrations for the .info landrush period (September 12 -19). To date, Markmonitor has successfully registered over 92% of .info names requested by its customers. For more information and to set up an account, visit Markmonitor's Domain Solution Center at www.markmonitor.com today. In addition to registering your .info domain names, Markmonitor's Domain Solution Center can accommodate all of your domain registration needs, including: 1. High volume registration, in all gTLDs and over 150 ccTLDs 2. Global Domain Name Management (DNS, contact information) 3. Reporting 4. Renewal Management 5. Transfers and account consolidation Our Domain Solution Center is designed specifically to provide reliable and efficient domain registration and management tools for companies and law firms that register and manage large volumes of domain names. To arrange a complete demo of our Domain Solution Center, please e-mail us at custserv at markmonitor.com or call us at (800) 337-7520. To be removed from future e-mails from Markmonitor, please respond to custremove at markmonitor.com. From gbroiles at well.com Tue Sep 4 15:00:34 2001 From: gbroiles at well.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 15:00:34 -0700 Subject: Official Anonymizing In-Reply-To: <200109042040.QAA12188@granger.mail.mindspring.net> References: <20010904143321.A2385@weathership.homeport.org> <200109041749.NAA26560@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20010831183757.03a22020@pop3.norton.antivirus> <20010904125751.A13920@cluebot.com> <200109041749.NAA26560@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010904135504.0370dec0@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 04:33 PM 9/4/2001 -0700, John Young wrote: >And I am not as sanguine about the wisdom of providing technology >to government on the same footing as the citizen. There is more >than a bit of marketing opportunism is this view -- and government >knows very well what power the purse has to seduce young firms >into the world of secrecy. > >So I say again, that despite it being economic foolhardiness, indeed >because it is that, there needs to be a code of practice for anonimyzer >developers to state their policy of helping governments snoop on >us without us knowing. Agnosticism in this matter is complicity >when such a stance cloaks government intrusiveness. > >Look, I'll accept that we will all succumb to the power of the market, >so limit my proposal for full disclosure to those over 30. After that >age one should know there is no way to be truly open-minded. I don't think the problem here is really the power of the market - it's the ease of copying digital media, and the difficulty of keeping a secret. I think a disclosure program like you discuss isn't an awful idea - and it might make sense for crypto companies to include, as part of their sales contracts with government agencies, explicit permission to disclose those purchases for public awareness and marketing purposes. But any such disclosure list is going to be incomplete, because the sellers themselves don't know who they're selling to, or who their customers are passing the goods along to. It's the same old crypto export control problem - but now we're thinking of the US government as the bad guys, instead of the government of Iraq - and all of the practical objections to the export control nonsense still make as much sense as they ever did. And the ease of circumventing the control regime still makes it a laughingstock, or just a marketing exercise. (See, for example, the PROMIS software package - licensed by Inslaw to DoJ, and from there distributed far and wide, depending on who you believe. A Google search on "promis inslaw casolaro" will provide a catalog of real or imagined government abuses of small software sellers.) I agree that we in the US have much more to fear from our government than from the government of Iraq - and perhaps the moral or strategic questions about arms control weigh even more heavily against giving the US government strong privacy or encryption or monitoring tools - but those moral questions are irrelevant given the speed and ease of distribution in the modern world. We can't control the spread of drugs, or guns, or money, or crypto, or surveillance tools - not as a government, and certainly not as individuals or small companies. Given those constraints on our abilities, publishers of crypto/privacy tools must assume that, when they make any significant distribution of their products, some of them will end up in the hands of government agencies, who will use them (if they're useful) and disassemble/analyze them to find exploitable weakness. That's not really different from what others - like hostile foreign governments, or motivated criminals, will do with them. Similarly, citizens must assume that, if tools are available to anyone, that they are available to governments, and to the least honest and least honorable and least humanitarian people within those governments, and plan their affairs accordingly. There's no other realistic path - we can agree that it would be nice if governments didn't perceive a need to mislead and deceive their own citizens, and if governments would follow their own laws - just as it would be nice if other humans would follow laws and act decently, too. But they won't, not all of them. So we've got to make our plans assuming that the worst people are going to get access, sooner or later, to the best tools, and they're going to lie to us about it along the way. And that's what we've got to work with - but we can have the good tools, too, if we choose them. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at well.com "We have found and closed the thing you watch us with." -- New Delhi street kids From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Tue Sep 4 12:03:07 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 15:03:07 -0400 Subject: Comped scribblers the bane of conferences Message-ID: > ---------- > From: Tim May[SMTP:tcmay at got.net] > Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 12:02 PM > To: cypherpunks at lne.com > Subject: Re: Comped scribblers the bane of conferences > > On Saturday, August 25, 2001, at 07:59 AM, Declan McCullagh wrote: > > > On Thu, Aug 23, 2001 at 04:14:04PM -0700, Tim May wrote: > >> Meanwhile, don't expect to see me at the next CFP conference! Plenty > >> of > >> comped scribblers, though. > > > > CFP is in SF next year, so you may want to stop by. > > > > As for "comped scribblers," I am one. But look at it from a > > journalist's perspective: We may attend two conferences a week, say at > > $1,500/per. Rough estimates, then, would be over $150,000 a year, more > > than most journalists make. > > > > Paying that much in conference fees is not feasible, and conference > > organizers generally understand this and let us in free (we may pay for > > meals) in exchange for publicity. > > > > First, $1500 per conference sounds way too high, even by today's > inflated standards. > You haven't gone to too many conferences lately, have you? Palmsource 2001: At door: $1395, early bird $995 (add $745 for tutorials). Comdex fall 2001: As high as $2895. if you get a 'flex pass'. Most attendees will probably be paying from $0 (exhibits only, online reg) to $1895 (2 conferences). RSA 2002: At-door full-conference registration is $1795, not including $495 for the tutorials. (that's the worst case - it's half that before Dec 4, and there are a number of lower-cost options). Peter From a3495 at cotse.com Tue Sep 4 12:11:27 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 15:11:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Official Anonymizing Message-ID: John wrote: >On ZKS selling anonymizing products that are publicly available >to governmental officials does raise an issue of whether officials >should, or should be able to, conceal their official identities when >working cyberspace in an official capacity. I think not, though >it might be as impossible to get officials to comply as with >terrorists so long as the technology is there. >Paul Sylverson, at NRL, took me to task recently for outing >officials, claiming that one of the primary purposes of onion >routing was to allow officials to conceal their actions in >cyberspace. I answered that it was my opinion that officials >had no right to conceal their identity when on the job, not >the military, not the spooks, indeed, they should be obliged >to reveal identity in cyberspace when at work, if not of the >person then of the agency. Nice thought, but I'll bet it wouldn't happen in a million years. And speaking generally on the subject of various people "concealing actions", could I just say that I think any company working in this sector would be well-advised to take good, hard second look at their internal security practices. "Insider threat mitigation" should be every bit as much of a concern to you as it is to the DoD. Maybe more so. Their unholy quartet of "maliciousness, disdain for security procedures, carelessness, and ignorance" applies to your insiders too. It wouldn't hurt anything to run a tighter ship, either: what are you doing to get to know who you're really working with? What are you doing to ensure you aren't trusting your trade secrets to shitheels who'll sell out crucial elements of your design to the first person who waves a few dollar bills under their nose? Not making any claims about who's doing the selling, who's doing the buying or why. But something seriously reeks in Denmark and as a community you really need to think about it a little harder. ~Faustine. From gbroiles at well.com Tue Sep 4 15:14:34 2001 From: gbroiles at well.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 15:14:34 -0700 Subject: Official Anonymizing In-Reply-To: <200109042040.QAA12188@granger.mail.mindspring.net> References: <20010904143321.A2385@weathership.homeport.org> <200109041749.NAA26560@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20010831183757.03a22020@pop3.norton.antivirus> <20010904125751.A13920@cluebot.com> <200109041749.NAA26560@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010904150235.03b7bec0@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 04:33 PM 9/4/2001 -0700, John Young wrote: >Look, I'll accept that we will all succumb to the power of the market, >so limit my proposal for full disclosure to those over 30. After that >age one should know there is no way to be truly open-minded. And, in the spirit of full disclosure, I'll mention that at C2Net we did sell our software to the government/intelligence agencies who wanted it - they paid the same prices as any other customers, signed the same sales contracts (we'd negotiate some on warranty terms for big purchases), and otherwise got what everyone else got - not more, not less. In the book "Peopleware", it's argued that software quality is important not because customers demand it (they don't), but because it makes developers happy to make something they're proud of, and happy developers are more productive and are retained longer. I thought then (96-98) and still think that it might be sensible for small crypto/privacy oriented-companies to refuse to sell to government bodies - not because it would realistically prevent the TLA's from gaining access or information, but because it would be a good marketing trick, especially back when the LEO/intel agencies were 100% behind Clipper and very restrictive export/escrow policies. In terms of customer and employee morale, it might be helpful to be "that company who tells the government to fuck off for moral reasons", which is something that ideological leftists and ideological libertarians can get excited about, and excited customers and employees are good for business. It also might be a sensible posture for a small, fast-moving high-volume company that doesn't want to fuck around with the overhead involved with government sales - they typically took 2x or 3x as long to close as private-sector sales, and had extra mandatory forms to fill out where they wanted to know about the race and gender of the business owner(s), and then paid us on 90 or 120 day or worse terms because what were we going to do, sue them? On the other hand, it also looks like a good opportunity for a captive government reseller subsidiary, which has a couple of really laid-back slow people on staff who don't mind filling out forms, and charge 2x the regular retail price (which is available only to cash/credit card customers) in exchange for waiting 120 days for payment. But we didn't have spare cycles to fuck around with that, though some companies do, and they seem to do pretty well with it. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at well.com "We have found and closed the thing you watch us with." -- New Delhi street kids From ravage at ssz.com Tue Sep 4 13:24:55 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 15:24:55 -0500 (CDT) Subject: NTsecAPI - Work in progress (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 03:02:04 +0200 From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton To: tng-technical at samba-tng.org, samba-technical at samba.org, ntsecapi-dev at lists.dcerpc.net Cc: samba-ntdom at samba.org, coderpunks at toad.com, cifs at discuss.microsoft.com Subject: NTsecAPI - Work in progress i'm starting an nt security api. it will basically be a generic wrapper around and merge of: cli_pipe_ntlmssp.c, srv_pipe_ntlmssp.c, cli_pipe_netsec.c, srv_pipe_netsec.c, and supporting code. [see http://www.samba-tng.org, cvs instructions, the above files are in source/rpc_client and source/rpc_server.] the idea is, however, to provide a client/server framework for general user authentication, signing and sealing. once this framework is written, it will be a heck of a lot simpler to add new user auth / dce/rpc crypto methods: i will investigate, for example, porting the kerberos5 auth used in dce 1.22 to the api, which will allow freedce to do kerberos5 authentication (something it can't do at the moment because noone's added it) the api is to be written as a stand-alone library into which it will need to even be passed memory allocation and debug handling functions: it will therefore have practical applications *outside* of samba, dce/rpc etc. etc., be threadsafe etc. etc. i'm currently munging the ntlmssp code as the first working example. if anyone is interested in helping, please subscribe to ntsecapi-dev on http://lists.dcerpc.net and we'll continue the discussions there. luke From gbroiles at well.com Tue Sep 4 15:28:53 2001 From: gbroiles at well.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 15:28:53 -0700 Subject: Official Anonymizing In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010904111319.03269ec0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010904152010.037f0a90@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 03:45 PM 9/4/2001 -0500, you wrote: >Real-To: "Aimee Farr" > >Are you talking about Gatti? Sounds like it. The opinion itself is at ; media reports at or . -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at well.com "We have found and closed the thing you watch us with." -- New Delhi street kids From ravage at ssz.com Tue Sep 4 13:31:06 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 15:31:06 -0500 Subject: The Register - MS eBook cracker keeps findings secret Message-ID: <3B953A0A.8D4229DF@ssz.com> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/55/21469.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From tcmay at got.net Tue Sep 4 15:43:34 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 15:43:34 -0700 Subject: Official Anonymizing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200109042246.f84MkTf00983@slack.lne.com> On Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 03:41 PM, measl at mfn.org wrote: > Hear Hear!! > > Yours, > > J.A. Terranson > sysadmin at mfn.org Why are you sending me-toos _twice_? (Yeah, I remember your explanation: you send things to two different nodes, with two different sender addresses, to make sure everyone gets your stuff. Rethink your strategy, lest many of us plonk you.) --Tim May From aimee.farr at pobox.com Tue Sep 4 13:45:52 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 15:45:52 -0500 Subject: Official Anonymizing In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010904111319.03269ec0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: Are you talking about Gatti? ~Aimee > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com]On > Behalf Of Steve Schear > Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 1:33 PM > To: cypherpunks at lne.com > Subject: Re: Official Anonymizing > > > At 01:42 PM 9/4/2001 -0700, John Young wrote: > >On ZKS selling anonymizing products that are publicly available > >to governmental officials does raise an issue of whether officials > >should, or should be able to, conceal their official identities when > >working cyberspace in an official capacity. I think not, though > >it might be as impossible to get officials to comply as with > >terrorists so long as the technology is there. > > I recall reading last week that an Oregon Supreme Court decision makes > mandatory that state LE operate only in the clear (no pseudo-anon > identities). Prosecutors are wringing their hands. > > steve From conceptin at rediffmail.com Tue Sep 4 13:46:56 2001 From: conceptin at rediffmail.com (conceptin at rediffmail.com) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 15:46:56 -0500 Subject: Promotional Products for Pharmaceutical Industries Message-ID: <200109041546225.SM01260@1g2k> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2851 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Tue Sep 4 15:50:36 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 15:50:36 -0700 Subject: Laws banning anonymity by government employees are foolish Message-ID: <200109042253.f84MrWf01067@slack.lne.com> The notion being touted by some, that government officials, employees, agents, etc. should not be allowed to be anonymous is a bad idea. If such a law were to be passed, this would be a "feel-good" measure which would not in fact be enforceable. Whether through cut-outs or contractors or just plain duplicity, the government would not stop using such methods. (This is a separate issue from whether the courts might rule that entrapment or provocation by undercover agents has limits. The issue of double agents, Red Squad infiltrations, etc. has been with us for more than a century. Courts have placed limits on entrapment, a separate issue from requiring True Names for all government employees.) I don't think having taxpayer money spent funding agents who go around infiltrating clubs and social groups and SIGs is a good idea, generally. But "there ought to be a law" is not likely to be effective. And it leads to the ostrich syndrome: if we pass a law to make a threat go away, and we don't see the threat anymore, it must be gone. -- Tim May From sales at lddtalk.com Tue Sep 4 15:55:42 2001 From: sales at lddtalk.com (LDD Talk) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 15:55:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Subject: I tried to call you, when can we talk? Message-ID: <419.437138.80679757sales@lddtalk.com> We were referred to you by one of our existing customers who felt you would use this service. We are Long Distance Direct . and we offer 50% or more of international long distance calling discounts over your existing telephone service. 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Sincerely, Staff at LDD Inc. sales at lddtalk.com 321.799.1010 U.S. From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Tue Sep 4 16:01:56 2001 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 16:01:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change Message-ID: <200109042301.XAA20853@hey.fuh-q.org> Not unsurprisingly, the judge has refused to permit a man sentenced to 10 years in prison for textual depictions of child sex in a private journal to withdraw his guilty plea and get a trial. As F. Lee Bailey once said, the major flaw in the American justice system is that appeals focus only on procedural errors, and ones guilt or innocence is never again an issue after the original trial, even if that trial reached the wrong result. Having concluded that all the i's were dotted and the t's crossed in the screwing of Mr. Dalton by the state of Ohio, justice proceeds merrily onward. ----- COLUMBUS, Ohio -- A man sentenced to prison for writing fantasies in his personal journal about torturing and molesting children cannot change his guilty plea, a judge ruled Tuesday. Franklin County Judge Nodine Miller said Brian Dalton did not demonstrate a "manifest injustice" had taken place. Dalton, 22, had asked to withdraw his guilty plea, saying it was not made knowingly or intelligently, and that he was expecting to be sentenced to treatment, not 10 years in prison. The case alarmed experts in First Amendment and obscenity law, who believe Dalton is the first person in the country successfully prosecuted for simply writing what was judged to be child pornography. "Definitely this is a matter of grave constitutional concerns," said attorney Benson Wolman, a former executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union's Ohio chapter. He said he will ask the court to set aside Dalton's conviction, or file a delayed appeal. ... -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Tue Sep 4 16:05:28 2001 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 16:05:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Moral Crypto isn't wuss-ninnie. In-Reply-To: from "Aimee Farr" at Sep 04, 2001 07:26:57 PM Message-ID: <200109042305.XAA20882@hey.fuh-q.org> Aimee writes: > I realize Tim's position, and I respect his right to express his political > opinions and ideas, even though I don't agree with them, and think he is a > self-identifying flamboyant jackass. I understand that many of you have the > same opinions, and likewise.... Guess not all Lying Feminist Cunts troll Sex Abuse exclusively. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From jya at pipeline.com Tue Sep 4 16:33:05 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 16:33:05 -0700 Subject: Official Anonymizing In-Reply-To: <20010904143321.A2385@weathership.homeport.org> References: <200109041749.NAA26560@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20010831183757.03a22020@pop3.norton.antivirus> <20010904125751.A13920@cluebot.com> <200109041749.NAA26560@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <200109042040.QAA12188@granger.mail.mindspring.net> I try to abide the principle that if one gets anonymized all should. However, there is a disparity in who gets to leverage that anonymity -- from the citizen to the empowered official. We have now more privilege of conealment on the official side, and that needs redress, constant redress a rebel might yell. Not much of my proposal is radical: there is a long tradition for officials to own up to what they do in their official roles. The uniformed police, the uniformed military services. That is far less done in the case of the spooks and, increasingly lately, law enforcement and the military as the latter adopt the practices and more importantly the technology of spooks -- and the spooks' lack of public accountability (those oversight committees are a fraud). The culture of secrecy is vastly overweighted in favor of government, and much of that derives from hoary claims of national security. Undercover and covert operations have become far more pervasive in the US government and military than ever, and constitute a privileged elite in mil/gov, and often law enforcement, moving from the federal agencies into state and locals -- and contractors and suppliers for all these. And all are bound by a complicitous and luxurious veil of secrecy. It is fairly common for goodhearts to question government but not when national security, and more recently, domestic security, is bruited. But that is due to a well-crafted educational campaign to raise national security to a theological level, and its rational is itself cloaked in secrecy. A similar theologizing is underway, methinks despite Declan's unreflective demurral, in the campaign for combatting domestic terrorism, the Homeland Defense demonolgy. Having learned much here about the futility of trying to determine who gets privacy technology and who does not, it remains true that for most of us access to this technology is very recent and we know not what lies outside our knowledge. I am not as sanguine about government as I was before being semi-educated by this list about what technology is in covert use. And I am not as sanguine about the wisdom of providing technology to government on the same footing as the citizen. There is more than a bit of marketing opportunism is this view -- and government knows very well what power the purse has to seduce young firms into the world of secrecy. So I say again, that despite it being economic foolhardiness, indeed because it is that, there needs to be a code of practice for anonimyzer developers to state their policy of helping governments snoop on us without us knowing. Agnosticism in this matter is complicity when such a stance cloaks government intrusiveness. Look, I'll accept that we will all succumb to the power of the market, so limit my proposal for full disclosure to those over 30. After that age one should know there is no way to be truly open-minded. From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Tue Sep 4 16:44:44 2001 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 16:44:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Moral Crypto isn't wuss-ninnie. In-Reply-To: from "Aimee Farr" at Sep 04, 2001 11:45:34 PM Message-ID: <200109042344.XAA20989@hey.fuh-q.org> Aimee writes: >> Guess not all Lying Feminist Cunts troll Sex Abuse exclusively. > I am not a Feminist. So I scored two out of three? :) -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From angelina at globalexpresssubmit.com Tue Sep 4 16:52:26 2001 From: angelina at globalexpresssubmit.com (angelina at globalexpresssubmit.com) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 16:52:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Congratulations. You've got a web site! - Now, can anyone find it? Message-ID: <200109042352.QAA23556@svs46.virtualis.com> Congratulations. You've got a web site! - Now, can anyone find it? VERICA quickly submits your site to over 13,500 search engines, media contacts (MSNBC, CNN, USA Today) and classified ads. It is easy, affordable and registering takes just 2 minutes. 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To report abuse please send a email to abuse at globalexpresssubmit.com From tcmay at got.net Tue Sep 4 17:17:34 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 17:17:34 -0700 Subject: Melon traffickers --> Soul traffickers In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010904191520.02172770@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <200109050020.f850KUf01686@slack.lne.com> On Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 04:33 PM, Declan McCullagh wrote: > At 12:28 PM 9/4/01 -0700, Tim May wrote: >> Either one runs seriously afoul of the First Amendment. >> >> Remailers are publishers. Publishers cannot be "licensed," nor can they >> simply be closed down. > > Let me play Devil's Advocate a bit and try to challenge this > conventional cypherpunk wisdom. > > Unlike remailers, publishers exercise editorial discretion over what > they print or distribute or broadcast. They do this by considering the > content of the communication and judge, among other things, whether it > is timely, newsworthy, informative, accurate, complete, relevant, > interesting -- in other words, whether the content will succeed in the > marketplace or not. > > A remailer does none of those things. Instead of a person judging > articles, books, or multimedia clips as worthy of being published, a > remailer simply forwards. To that end, it is far more like a mechanical > device: a conveyor belt that moves an item from one place to another, > perhaps taking off a layer of packaging along the way. And let me play Devil's Advocate to this DA position: Not to sound overly Choatian, but there is nothing in the First Amendment which says anything about government getting to decide when "enough" editorial processing has occurred so that First Amendment protections kick in. A publisher who published a publication consisting of _all submissions_ would still be protected, even if he exercised _zero_ editorial discretion. In fact, such things exist: they are called "vanity presses." They publish for a fee, no differently than a paid remailer publishes for a fee. Is a vanity press not protected by the First Amendment? There is no requirement in the First that a press prove that it altered or selected some threshold percentage of bits before First Amendment protections exist. In fact, the Bill of Rights is not about rights granted by government at all, it's about limits on what government may do. And, as I will cover below, any kind of "know your customer" rules run into other problems. (By they way, publishers of anonymous letters are not required to "know their customers." Ditto for collectors of anonymous suggestions, radio talk show hosts accepting calls from anonymous dialers, etc. These publishers and radio talk show hosts do _not_ have to "justify" their failure to collect taceability information, nor do they have to meet any threshold test for how much editorial control they exercised. The First simply does not give government the authority to restrict a publisher this way.) > Obviously I'm not trying to argue that Congress *should* enact such a > law -- I think they should stay the hell away from this area -- but > what if they do? How about if they try, as someone else suggested, to > compel ISPs or network providers to be the _de facto_ cops? > > I'm not trying to scare off cypherpunk-types from coding or discussing > these things. If anything, I'd argue that the next few years are the > time to deploy mixes more widely, and weave them into popular products, > so restrictions would meet with not just theoretical privacy-themed > opposition, but lots of peeved users as well. I'm also not saying, to > repeat my last message, that OECD or G8-wide legal restrictions would > put remailers out of business, but I suspect such rules would make it > much less likely they'd be mainstream. Something I wrote about a very long time ago, before Cypherpunks even, was the "trick" (Happy Fun Court will not be amused) of using a "religious confessional" as a cover for remailers. Or of using an "anonymous tip line" as a cover. (This was discussed much in the first few years of remailer operation.) If the government demands that remailer shut down, or somehow obtain meatspace identities, confessionals and anonymous pschiatric/sex hotlines will presumably also be shut down. This was the motivation for much of the Kremvax early remailing service, which Julf later took over the code for. Sexual abuse, incest, rape, shame, etc., drove these early systems. It may be time to dust off these services as "covers." Anyone now running a remailer could consider explicity announcing their religious or psychiatric motivations. Melon traffickers --> Soul traffickers. Happy Fun Court will not be amused that such "tricks" are being used to head off an outlawing of anonymity tools. Fuck 'em. --Tim May From gbroiles at well.com Tue Sep 4 17:19:57 2001 From: gbroiles at well.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 17:19:57 -0700 Subject: Official Anonymizing In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010904193422.02175ec0@mail.well.com> References: <200109042040.QAA12188@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <20010904143321.A2385@weathership.homeport.org> <200109041749.NAA26560@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20010831183757.03a22020@pop3.norton.antivirus> <20010904125751.A13920@cluebot.com> <200109041749.NAA26560@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010904171424.03746e60@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 07:53 PM 9/4/2001 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: >[...] >2. Since the people enforcing this hypothetical law are the same people >with the greatest incentives to violate it, what makes a disinterested >observer believe that it will be effective? If we're not interested in >effectiveness, why don't we just pass a law saying "no more police >brutality" or "no cop shall violate someone's civil liberties?" I think this goes a little too far (though I'm also pretty skeptical about the underlying proposal). True, it's very unlikely that cops will arrest themselves for violating a mandatory disclosure law - expecting any group to reliably self-police is unrealistic. It would not be practically, impossible, to enforce such a provision the same way that parts of the Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth amendments are - by making evidence which has been gathered illegally unavailable in court. That sanction isn't intended to be punitive - it just removes (some of) the motivation to engage in the forbidden activity. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at well.com "We have found and closed the thing you watch us with." -- New Delhi street kids From bounce-stocknight-163101 at lyris.stocknight.com Tue Sep 4 17:32:44 2001 From: bounce-stocknight-163101 at lyris.stocknight.com (Stocknight ListServer) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 17:32:44 -0700 Subject: StockUpTicks Features Ozolutions OZLU Message-ID: [Stockupticks.com] [Image] [Image] Welcome to Stockupticks.com Newsletter Issue 12 - September 4, 2001 [Image] [Image][Image] [Image] e-Blast [Image] *** Breaking News [Image] Breaking News *** Stockupticks endeavors to bring you information about under-followed companies that may be of particular interest to investors in "discovery" and emerging growth stocks. [logo] (OTC BB: OZLU) is the exclusive distributor for Hankin Ozone products and markets water purification systems internationally in Mexico, the Caribbean, and Canada. Ozone is electronically charged oxygen. When ozone is injected into a water stream and dissolves and removes the impurities in water. Ozone has a very short life-span and after it is injected into the water, it returns to be oxygen within a few minutes. With the use of ozone, water can be treated to a degree of purity unachievable by any other means. Ozone purification is a proven method that is very cost efficient. Ozolutions announced on August 14, that it had signed a distribution agreement with ELCE Intl. for rights to distribute the ELCE Water Activator in South America and in the Caribbean. The activator removes scale build-up inside water pipes preventing deposits from forming, enhancing water purification systems. Ozolutions has gathered the critical elements to distribute and provide the best water purification methodology to governments, corporations, and individual consumers around the world who are in need of pure water at a cost effective price. --------------------------------------------- We believe the following news release will be of significant interest to investors. [Ozolutions Inc. logo] Providing The Best Water Systems to a Thirsty World [Image] Ozolutions Inc. (OTC BB: OZLU) [Image] Tuesday September 4, 6:35 pm Eastern Time Press Release SOURCE: Ozolutions Inc. Ozolutions Announces an Agreement in Principle to Provide Hankin Water Purification System to Homeowners Ontario Distributor Will Offer Purification System To Homebuilders And Homebuyers TORONTO--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Sept. 4, 2001-- Ozolutions Inc. (OTCBB:OZLU - news), an international distributor of water purification systems, announced today that it had entered into an agreement in principle with one of Canada's largest providers of home comfort systems to offer the the option of having the Hankin Ozone EntrOzone water purification system installed both in existing and new homes across Ontario. Based on initial test market results, Ozolutions will develop a marketing strategy and technical support program that will benefit all home builders that offer their new residential customers water purification as part of a home utilities package that is generally offered in home developments. There is increased public awareness about the quality of water and the Hankin EntrOzone system is a secure, safe, reliable, and affordable product that delivers purified water. Hankin has been in business over 65 years and has an ozone-based treatment of water that far surpasses the normal chlorine and filter techniques. The EntrOzone is a unique combination of technologies including ozone (electrically charged water molecules), Ultra-Violet light, and activated carbon filters that provide maximum protection against bacteria, viruses, metal contaminants and harmful chemicals including pesticides that may infiltrate sources of drinking water. Ozolutions will also offer homebuilders and homeowners complete servicing and financing for EntrOzone buyers. The company estimates the sale of 2400 EntrOzone units through its preferred home services distribution channel and the additional sale of 600 units through company direct and dealer sales. EntrOzone has a suggested retail price of $4000 (USD) and, based on current sales estimates, Ozolutions initial projections indicate potential gross revenues of approximately $8,000,000 (USD) over the next 12 months. Max Weissengruber, President of Ozolutions said, "The opportunity for our company to deliver the Hankin technology to one of Canada's largest providers of home comfort appliances is exciting. Ozolutions and the home product supplier are exploring the strategic implementation of the agreement and we are confident that homebuilders and homeowners will be delighted with the product, service, and cost effectiveness of having a reliable supply of purified water.'' Safe Harbour Statement under the Private Securities Reform Act of 1995 Except for the historical information contained herein, the matters discussed in this press release are forward-looking statements that involve risks and uncertainties including, but not limited to economic, competitive, governmental and technological factors affecting the Company's operations, markets, products and prices and other factors discussed in the Company's various filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission. The above mentioned agreement is contingent upon approval by the Board of Directors of both companies, mutual ratification of the agreement in full, and various regulatory and governmental approvals. Contact: Ozolutions Inc. Max Weissengruber, 416/490-0254 Fax: 416/495-8625 [Image]The MarketPlace [Image] The MarketPlace for Ozone treated water is rapidly growing. There are presently more than 250 ozone treatment plants under design or construction in the United States. As water treatment plants respond to US Environmental Protection Agency regulations, more than 10,000 smaller drinking water treatment facilities will be looking to add ozone oxidation processes to their drinking water. Ozone treated water is also important to: * Tourism * Business Consumers * Waste Water Treatment * Fish Hatcheries * Municipalities * Urban & Rural Home builders The proximity of the Mexican market and the Caribbean market provides an extremely cost-effective platform for sales, shipment, and service. As part of their strategic marketing plan, Ozolutions is developing a dealer network of independent agents and contractors capable of selling, installing systems and servicing customers. [Image] Profiles [Image] [logo] is the exclusive distributor for Hankin Ozone products and markets water purification systems internationally in Mexico, the Caribbean Zone, and Canada. Ozone is electronically charged oxygen. When ozone is injected into a water stream and dissolves, it removes the impurities in water. Ozone has a very short life-span and after it is injected into the water, it returns to be oxygen within a few minutes. With the use of ozone, water can be treated to a degree of purity unachievable by any other means. Ozone purification is a proven method that is very cost efficient. [Hank Ppl]Hankin Ozone(CDNX - HAI) manufactures safe, secure, rugged, and reliable water purification systems. The Hankin multi-barrier treatment of water eliminates contaminants, viruses, e-boli, pesticides, 99.9992% of pathogens, and metals. The Hankin 'Entrozone' disinfects water better than undependable filters or limited chlorine. The Entrozone can work with water from any source, a well, a lake, or a municipal water pipeline. Hankin Ozone Systems Limited, has been a publicly traded Canadian company in business since 1972. [Image] Company Contact [Image] Ozolutions Inc. Max Weissengruber, President [Entrozone Product] Tel: 416.490.0254 Fax: 416.495.8625 max at ozolutions.com 30 Denver Cres., Suite 200 Hankin Patented Ozotek (tm) ozone generator Toronto, Ontario, Canada M2J 1G8 [Image] Links [Image] For more information, please visit the following sites: http://www.ozolutions.com http://www.hankinozone.com http://www.epa.gov/OW/ (Office of Water) http://wwwga.usgs.gov/edu/ (U.S. Geological Survey) [Image] Safe Harbor and Disclaimer [Image] Safe Harbor Statement Statements regarding financial matters in above referenced press release other than historical facts are "forward-looking statements'' within the meaning of Section 27A of the Securities Act of 1933, Section 21E of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934, and as that term is defined in the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. The Company intends that such statements about the Company's future expectations, including future revenues and earnings, anticipated events and all other forward-looking statements, be subject to the safe harbors created thereby. Since these statements (future operational results and sales) involve risks and uncertainties and are subject to change at any time, the Company's actual results may differ materially from expected results. Disclaimer Stockupticks.com is owned by Market Pathways Financial Relations Incorporated (MP). The information contained herein is based on a news release or other report written and disseminated by the subject company. Any information, opinions or analysis regarding the subject company to which Stockupticks.com has provided a link or other detail are provided by sources believed to be reliable but no representation, expressed or implied, is made as to its accuracy, completeness or correctness. This report is for information purposes only and should not be used as the basis for any investment decision. For producing and or disseminating this Newsletter, MP has been granted 17,000 shares of Ozolutions by Market Information Communication, Inc. This compensation constitutes a conflict of interest as to our ability to remain objective in our communication regarding the subject company. Write or call MP for detailed disclosure as required by Rule 17b of the Securities Act of 1933/1934. MP and Stockupticks.com and its owners, agents and employees are not investment advisors and this report is not investment advice. This information is neither a solicitation to buy nor an offer to sell securities. MP and Stockupticks.com and/or its affiliates, associates and employees from time to time may have either a long or short position in securities mentioned. Information contained herein may not be reproduced in whole or in part without the express written consent of Market Pathways Financial Relations Incorporated (Copyright 2001.) [Image][Image] [Image] [Image] © Stockupticks 2001, All rights reserved [Image] --- You are currently subscribed to stocknight as: cypherpunks at algebra.com To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-stocknight-163101P at lyris.stocknight.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 19923 bytes Desc: not available URL: From measl at mfn.org Tue Sep 4 15:41:16 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 17:41:16 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Official Anonymizing In-Reply-To: <20010904143321.A2385@weathership.homeport.org> Message-ID: Hear Hear!! Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Adam Shostack wrote: > Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 14:33:21 -0400 > From: Adam Shostack > Reply-To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com > To: John Young > Cc: cypherpunks at lne.com > Subject: CDR: Re: Official Anonymizing > > On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 01:42:28PM -0700, John Young wrote: > | I propose that all anonymizers adopt a code of practice that > | any sale to officials of anonymizers or their use be disclosed > | to the public (I suggested this to ZKS early on when first > | meetings with the feds to explain the technology were being > | sometimes disclosed). That seems to be a reasonable response > | to officially-secret prowling and investigating cyberspace. > > Speaking for myself, I don't really want to know my customers any more > than I absolutely must. If y'all are so willing to identify and treat > differently one class of customers (spooks), I believe that you have > no moral leg to stand on when a different class of customers (say, > hispanics) are treated differently. > > If there's no morality bit in encryption, then there's no morality > bit, and the fifth horsey of government can be as anonymous as the > rest of us. > > Adam > > -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From juicy at melontraffickers.com Tue Sep 4 17:47:33 2001 From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 17:47:33 -0700 Subject: Moral Crypto Message-ID: At 12:38 PM 9/4/2001 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: >In the next five years or so, I would not be suprised to see a call >for federal licensing of remailers. Some of the more mainstream >remailer operators might even go along with it, eventually, calling >for a "voluntary-mandatory" code of conduct and industry self- >regulation. What makes you think remailers are such a threat that the federal government would attempt to license them? How exactly will they help criminals and terrorists in the time frame of the next five years? They're not being used for much today, other than annoying people. It doesn't seem like criminals use them. What's the killer app (so to speak)? From tcmay at got.net Tue Sep 4 18:04:20 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 18:04:20 -0700 Subject: Moral Crypto isn't wuss-ninnie. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200109050107.f8517Gf02046@slack.lne.com> On Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 05:26 PM, Aimee Farr wrote: > "A potential balance between national security and science may lie in an > agreement to include in the peer review process (prior to the start of > research and prior to the publication) the question of potential harm > to the > nation.... I believe it is necessary before significant harm does occur > which could well prompt the federal government to overreact." -- Inman, > '82. > > --- > It is not wuss-ninnie to spark debate, or to examine characterizations > and > motives. Many say, "technology is neutral." It's not. Technology is > CONTEXTUAL. Somebody is going to use it for something, and that's > usually > somebody and something in particular. > > Most of you would agree that surveillance researchers failed to > consider and > address the moral and societal implications of surveillance > technologies. > That, too many said, was somebody else's problem. Now, it's *our* > problem. > Had they looked into motivations and societal factors, we would have had > more lead time to deal with improper surveillance and secondary use > issues. > We are in this position today because they were "wuss-ninnies." Nonsense. None of the current "moral and societal implications of surveillance technologies" are either new or unexplored. From Bentham to Huxley to Orwell to Donner ("The Age of Surveillance," 1980) to Brin ("The Transparent Society," c. 1996), the implications have been explored in gory detail. The notion that these implications would be avoided or handled by submitting all research proposals to Inman's oversight board is naive in the extreme. Inman's board, had the Constitution even allowed such "oversight" of private actor activities, would have killed RSA in the womb, would have blocked PGP, and would have put the kibosh on remailers....but would have endorsed surveillance cams in football stadiums. > > If the benefits outweigh the costs, then fine -- but show me that you > thought about it, and considered what other people might have to say, > even > if you might not agree with them (or me). I'm glad you have political > ideas > and theories of how it's going to all work out....but it often doesn't > work > out the way you think, or want it to. I've been reading and thinking about these issues since I was a kid. All of the above authors I've read, plus a whole shelf full (Declan and Lucky can attest to this) of other such books. Laqueur. Kwitny, Richelson, Bamford, Wise, Kahn, and dozens of other works touching on surveillance, secrecy, terror states, espionage, and on and on. But we don't have to justify to _you_ that we have read "academic works" or thought about the issues to then press for there being no Inman-style reviews of research, no Lincoln-style suspensions of habeas corpus, not statist-style restrictions on liberty in the name of fighting our "endless enemies." > I realize Tim's position, and I respect his right to express his > political > opinions and ideas, even though I don't agree with them, and think he > is a > self-identifying flamboyant jackass. I understand that many of you have > the > same opinions, and likewise.... Agent Farr, you need a new gig. --Tim May From lisat at etransmail2.com Tue Sep 4 18:08:40 2001 From: lisat at etransmail2.com (Lisa Thornton) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 18:08:40 -0700 Subject: VersaCheck Prestige & Premium Checks! Message-ID: <200109052005.f85K5ST11638@ak47.algebra.com> You are subscribed as: cypherpunks at algebra.com Good Afternoon! 1. New: highly attractive and secure Prestige & Premium check styles from G7 http://www.g7ps.com 2. Get your Executive Membership today and save on all your purchases of toner supplies, software and blank check paper! Click on the link below and then on the "Become a Member and Save" banner: http://www.g7ps.com 3. FREE Productivity Software in full retail packaging: ******************** a) eXpressForms "forms publisher" ($129.99 value) b) Fortune "relationship manager" ($149.99 value) c) DataScan "business card & contact list scanner" ($149.99 value) d) TransForm Suite "automatic form creation and text OCR" ($59.99 value) Pick up your FREE products at the web site specified below. Click on the following link for details and to order (or call the 800 number below) http://www.g7ps.com ********************* Please do not hesitate to call 800-303-2620 for any questions you may have. Thank you very much. Regards, Lisa Thornton Productivity Services Director G7 Productivity Systems, Inc. lisat at etransmail2.com 800-303-2620 To change your communication preference please click on: http://www.globalzon2k.com/scripts/mf_de.asp?e=cypherpunks at algebra.com or simply reply to this Email with UNSUBSCRIBE in the subject line. From ravage at ssz.com Tue Sep 4 16:50:00 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 18:50:00 -0500 Subject: Slashdot | Software Sorts Electronic Evidence Message-ID: <3B9568A8.11AD6FB@ssz.com> http://slashdot.org/articles/01/09/04/1754229.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ladispolano at libero.it Tue Sep 4 10:06:03 2001 From: ladispolano at libero.it (marco) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 19:06:03 +0200 Subject: Prova Message-ID: <4.3.0.20010904190555.00acf600@popmail.libero.it> :: Request-Remailing-To: ladispolano at libero.it Questa è solo una prova... ------------------------------------------------------------ Free Web Email & Filter Enhancements. http://www.freewebemail.com/filtertools/ ------------------------------------------------------------ From juicy at melontraffickers.com Tue Sep 4 19:26:15 2001 From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 19:26:15 -0700 Subject: Moral Crypto Message-ID: <19966c888a47446b2fd297f8bdab15ac@melontraffickers.com> declan at well.com writes: > Anonymity allows people to evade laws. Governments don't like that. > Read the archives. It would be nice to see at least one example of something nasty that could be done with an anonymous remailer in the next few years where you couldn't get the same effect at the corner phone booth or dropping a letter in a public mailbox. So far there have been no prohibitions on sending information anonymously via those mechanisms. Why would email be singled out? From aimee.farr at pobox.com Tue Sep 4 17:26:57 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 19:26:57 -0500 Subject: Moral Crypto isn't wuss-ninnie. In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010904112236.03706810@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: "A potential balance between national security and science may lie in an agreement to include in the peer review process (prior to the start of research and prior to the publication) the question of potential harm to the nation.... I believe it is necessary before significant harm does occur which could well prompt the federal government to overreact." -- Inman, '82. --- It is not wuss-ninnie to spark debate, or to examine characterizations and motives. Many say, "technology is neutral." It's not. Technology is CONTEXTUAL. Somebody is going to use it for something, and that's usually somebody and something in particular. Most of you would agree that surveillance researchers failed to consider and address the moral and societal implications of surveillance technologies. That, too many said, was somebody else's problem. Now, it's *our* problem. Had they looked into motivations and societal factors, we would have had more lead time to deal with improper surveillance and secondary use issues. We are in this position today because they were "wuss-ninnies." If the benefits outweigh the costs, then fine -- but show me that you thought about it, and considered what other people might have to say, even if you might not agree with them (or me). I'm glad you have political ideas and theories of how it's going to all work out....but it often doesn't work out the way you think, or want it to. In my opinion, to characterize a technology as having aims detrimental to national security interests is both irresponsible and foolish. Words and events shape public policy -- why shape it against you? I realize Tim's position, and I respect his right to express his political opinions and ideas, even though I don't agree with them, and think he is a self-identifying flamboyant jackass. I understand that many of you have the same opinions, and likewise.... ~Aimee From declan at well.com Tue Sep 4 16:33:27 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 19:33:27 -0400 Subject: Moral Crypto In-Reply-To: <200109041931.f84JVSf32298@slack.lne.com> References: <20010904102133.A30958@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010904191520.02172770@mail.well.com> At 12:28 PM 9/4/01 -0700, Tim May wrote: >Either one runs seriously afoul of the First Amendment. > >Remailers are publishers. Publishers cannot be "licensed," nor can they >simply be closed down. Let me play Devil's Advocate a bit and try to challenge this conventional cypherpunk wisdom. Unlike remailers, publishers exercise editorial discretion over what they print or distribute or broadcast. They do this by considering the content of the communication and judge, among other things, whether it is timely, newsworthy, informative, accurate, complete, relevant, interesting -- in other words, whether the content will succeed in the marketplace or not. A remailer does none of those things. Instead of a person judging articles, books, or multimedia clips as worthy of being published, a remailer simply forwards. To that end, it is far more like a mechanical device: a conveyor belt that moves an item from one place to another, perhaps taking off a layer of packaging along the way. Another analogy (though polluted because of the U.S. Mail regs) might be like a Mailboxes Etc.-type service that opens an envelope and forwards the extracted contents to you at another address. Even if that service *only* used FedEx and UPS (to avoid at least in part the postal regs), what court would strike down regulations enacted by legislatures or Congress? Seems to me the Supreme Court (wrongly) would say the First Amendment interests are limited, and it's a just exercise of the Commerce Clause. Much would depend on the details, I'd imagine, of such a hypothetical law. Is it a flat ban, or (at first) brief identity-escrow periods? Obviously I'm not trying to argue that Congress *should* enact such a law -- I think they should stay the hell away from this area -- but what if they do? How about if they try, as someone else suggested, to compel ISPs or network providers to be the _de facto_ cops? I'm not trying to scare off cypherpunk-types from coding or discussing these things. If anything, I'd argue that the next few years are the time to deploy mixes more widely, and weave them into popular products, so restrictions would meet with not just theoretical privacy-themed opposition, but lots of peeved users as well. I'm also not saying, to repeat my last message, that OECD or G8-wide legal restrictions would put remailers out of business, but I suspect such rules would make it much less likely they'd be mainstream. -Declan From declan at well.com Tue Sep 4 16:53:12 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 19:53:12 -0400 Subject: Official Anonymizing In-Reply-To: <200109042040.QAA12188@granger.mail.mindspring.net> References: <20010904143321.A2385@weathership.homeport.org> <200109041749.NAA26560@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20010831183757.03a22020@pop3.norton.antivirus> <20010904125751.A13920@cluebot.com> <200109041749.NAA26560@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010904193422.02175ec0@mail.well.com> Let me try to restate John's proposal, which has some very attractive qualities. There are a few questions, it seems to me: 1. Should we require by law that government employees never act under cover of anonymity? (In practice, what does that mean? Does that mean they can't lie about their truename, or does it mean that they have to affirmatively volunteer their employment status?) 2. Since the people enforcing this hypothetical law are the same people with the greatest incentives to violate it, what makes a disinterested observer believe that it will be effective? If we're not interested in effectiveness, why don't we just pass a law saying "no more police brutality" or "no cop shall violate someone's civil liberties?" 3. Since the people regulated by this hypothetical law who would object to it have innumerable allies in the legislatures of this fair nation, what makes a disinterested observer believe that this proposal could ever be anything more than a thought experiment? 4. Should privacy-providing companies pledge to disclose the identities of their .gov purchasers? Do we think that .govs will follow this rule, or use cutouts? Will it be effective when the tools can be freely downloaded or bought at CompUSA? Me, I tend to think that federal agents shouldn't be infiltrating U.S. political parties, that the extent of undercover police work could be profitably scaled back quite a bit, that the IRS has few if any reasons to send its agents undercover, and that intelligence agencies have no business running operations domestically. Contrary to what John says, I'm happy to look critically at "homeland defense plans" -- what I've said is simply that this HD campaign has not yet eroded our civil libertes to the point where we have none. Be concerned, but not terrified. I think John has a valid point when he says that we should look askance at anonymity firms that help government spy on us. Companies would be well-advised to make their practices (we sell to Feds, we refuse to sell to Feds) public. But the market being what it is, the tools so well-discussed in so many circles, and the switch from .mil or .gov to .org or .com so easy, that I suspect such promises might give us only a false sense of security. -Declan At 04:33 PM 9/4/01 -0700, John Young wrote: >I try to abide the principle that if one gets anonymized >all should. However, there is a disparity in who gets >to leverage that anonymity -- from the citizen to the >empowered official. > >We have now more privilege of conealment on the official >side, and that needs redress, constant redress a rebel >might yell. > >Not much of my proposal is radical: there is a long tradition >for officials to own up to what they do in their official >roles. The uniformed police, the uniformed military >services. That is far less done in the case of the spooks >and, increasingly lately, law enforcement and the military >as the latter adopt the practices and more importantly >the technology of spooks -- and the spooks' lack of >public accountability (those oversight committees are >a fraud). > >The culture of secrecy is vastly overweighted in favor of >government, and much of that derives from hoary claims >of national security. Undercover and covert operations >have become far more pervasive in the US government >and military than ever, and constitute a privileged elite in >mil/gov, and often law enforcement, moving from the >federal agencies into state and locals -- and contractors >and suppliers for all these. And all are bound by a >complicitous and luxurious veil of secrecy. > >It is fairly common for goodhearts to question government >but not when national security, and more recently, domestic >security, is bruited. But that is due to a well-crafted educational >campaign to raise national security to a theological level, and >its rational is itself cloaked in secrecy. A similar theologizing >is underway, methinks despite Declan's unreflective demurral, >in the campaign for combatting domestic terrorism, the >Homeland Defense demonolgy. > >Having learned much here about the futility of trying to determine >who gets privacy technology and who does not, it remains true >that for most of us access to this technology is very recent and we >know not what lies outside our knowledge. > >I am not as sanguine about government as I was before being >semi-educated by this list about what technology is in covert use. > >And I am not as sanguine about the wisdom of providing technology >to government on the same footing as the citizen. There is more >than a bit of marketing opportunism is this view -- and government >knows very well what power the purse has to seduce young firms >into the world of secrecy. > >So I say again, that despite it being economic foolhardiness, indeed >because it is that, there needs to be a code of practice for anonimyzer >developers to state their policy of helping governments snoop on >us without us knowing. Agnosticism in this matter is complicity >when such a stance cloaks government intrusiveness. > >Look, I'll accept that we will all succumb to the power of the market, >so limit my proposal for full disclosure to those over 30. After that >age one should know there is no way to be truly open-minded. From tcmay at got.net Tue Sep 4 20:05:59 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 20:05:59 -0700 Subject: Moral Crypto In-Reply-To: <19966c888a47446b2fd297f8bdab15ac@melontraffickers.com> Message-ID: <200109050308.f8538uf02602@slack.lne.com> On Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 07:26 PM, A. Melon wrote: > declan at well.com writes: >> Anonymity allows people to evade laws. Governments don't like that. >> Read the archives. > > It would be nice to see at least one example of something nasty that > could be done with an anonymous remailer in the next few years where > you couldn't get the same effect at the corner phone booth or dropping a > letter in a public mailbox. Are you dense, or just ignorant? Consider the broad class of two-way communications, whether for information buying and selling, extortion, espionage, arranging contract killings, etc. Are these sufficiently "nasty" for you? Now consider that both the "corner phone booth" and "dropping a letter in a public mailbox" are untraceable only in _one_ direction. Two-way communication is not untraceable. If you don't see this, despite years and years of this point being explained on this list and in books like those by Ludlow, Levy, Kelly, and others, there is no hope for you. Agent Farr, this feeble attempt to entrap us into giving examples of "nasty" applications is puerile. It was all laid out a decade ago. --Tim May From declan at well.com Tue Sep 4 17:11:26 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 20:11:26 -0400 Subject: ...considered boring In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20010905072724.009da890@pop.useoz.com>; from mattd@useoz.com on Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 07:36:20AM +1000 References: <5.0.0.25.0.20010905072724.009da890@pop.useoz.com> Message-ID: <20010904201126.A23931@cluebot.com> On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 07:36:20AM +1000, mattd wrote: > Cant you be obsessed with JB and Cryptoanarchy/freenet? Like if some > outlaws dont unite and fight(using AP)with some indians,we'll all be forced > down the trail of tears to the freenet reservation. Fuck that. BTW for those of you who aren't on Politech, here's some other stuff that mattd has written (and a link to an article about the Ohio cops investigating him): http://www.politechbot.com/cgi-bin/politech.cgi?name=proffr -Declan From declan at well.com Tue Sep 4 17:15:17 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 20:15:17 -0400 Subject: PRI event 9/5 in DC: A "free choice approach" to privacy Message-ID: <20010904201517.B23931@cluebot.com> This report takes a libertarian, almost cypherpunkish, approach to privacy, and highlights some cypherpunk-developed tools as an alternative to federal legislation. -Declan ----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh ----- From jya at pipeline.com Tue Sep 4 20:47:14 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 20:47:14 -0700 Subject: Official Anonymizing In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010904193422.02175ec0@mail.well.com> References: <200109042040.QAA12188@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <20010904143321.A2385@weathership.homeport.org> <200109041749.NAA26560@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20010831183757.03a22020@pop3.norton.antivirus> <20010904125751.A13920@cluebot.com> <200109041749.NAA26560@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <200109050054.UAA15669@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Sorry, I'm not proposing a law, certainly not on this list. Rather a voluntary concordance for reputation building, not only in citizen-world but in government-world. There has been a lot of good discussion about this here in the past and I'm not going against that wisdom. Greg is tracking that in one of his posts, and Declan too if the focus on law is shifted to reputation. How to build reputable products for privacy protection and how to keep them trustworthy. Use of these by officials to invade privacy will surely diminish the products. The capability of the intrusive products should extend to public warnings of likely abuses by whomever, but by officials most so. Nothing unusual about that unless you want government customers. And who doesn't after age 30. So, again, daredeviling products are for those who have nothing to lose. You making profit, handsome profits, you won't give them up for principle, right. That's okay, we are all subject to enlightened self-interest, the same force that leads officials to spy on us and criminalize us doing it to them. I foresee criminalizing anonymizers for us not them. Their laws not ours. Ours is to . . . concord in sweet harmony, as here we do -- until some mean son of a bitch subs up to discord. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Sep 4 21:14:04 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 21:14:04 -0700 Subject: Motives In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010819195419.00ca7950@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com > References: <3B7E63F9.13714.BAB8E1@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010818063120.01c1ee40@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com > <5.0.2.1.0.20010818120121.02114570@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010904164113.030f2410@idiom.com> At 08:00 PM 08/19/2001 -1000, Reese wrote: >We assume the lamerz posting "h3lp m3 m4k3 b0mZ" queries are LEA's >trolling, but are they? Is posting bomb recipes a violation of >some applicable law? If so, what law? If not, why do we assume >those to be LEA trolls, and not some hopeless wank or kook who >needs to get in touch with HisOrHer inner child and beat it up? Our esteemed Senator Diane Feinstein from California, occasionally along with other people such as Joe Biden from my home state of Delaware, occasionally proposes laws against disseminating information on the internet, particularly about bombs and such. (By contrast, an elementary-school education in Delaware includes a trip to the duPont gunpowder-making mills, learning about local history, colonial industry, and safe explosives-making.) So some of the bomb ranting is about her disrespect for the First Amendment. Some of it's pretty clearly from people who troll for the fun of trolling. Some of it might even be lam3r k1ddi3z trying to look k3wl. Some if it, especially post-Columbine and post-J*m B*ll, does appear to be from people trolling usual suspects on the net hoping to find some of them who are scary or stupid enough to entrap into some witch-hunt, a political speech, a newspaper story, a criminal conviction, whatever floats their boat. There actually are laws against blowing stuff up or possessing tools to do so, at least in some circumstances, or conspiring to do Bad Things, or corrupting minors into doing so, and for many purposes an accusation is really more useful than a conviction. Most of it's actually produced by the service* that the Cypherpunks Cabal Central Conspiracy Committee hires to make the list appear to be Mostly Harmless by posting a flood of decoy material and other slanderous and evil material so that the few genuinely dangerous messages can be dismissed as "oh, yeah, kooks troll us with stuff like this all the time" or "Oh, yeah, and last week they claimed we were conspiring with hizbollah.org and the Bilderbergers." [*Plausible Deniability Inc.] From declan at well.com Tue Sep 4 18:54:25 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 21:54:25 -0400 Subject: Moral Crypto In-Reply-To: ; from juicy@melontraffickers.com on Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 05:47:33PM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20010904215424.A25731@cluebot.com> Anonymity allows people to evade laws. Governments don't like that. Read the archives. -Declan On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 05:47:33PM -0700, A. Melon wrote: > What makes you think remailers are such a threat that the federal > government would attempt to license them? How exactly will they help > criminals and terrorists in the time frame of the next five years? > They're not being used for much today, other than annoying people. > It doesn't seem like criminals use them. What's the killer app (so > to speak)? From declan at well.com Tue Sep 4 20:03:47 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 23:03:47 -0400 Subject: Moral Crypto In-Reply-To: <19966c888a47446b2fd297f8bdab15ac@melontraffickers.com>; from juicy@melontraffickers.com on Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 07:26:15PM -0700 References: <19966c888a47446b2fd297f8bdab15ac@melontraffickers.com> Message-ID: <20010904230347.A26669@cluebot.com> Sigh. Read the archives. Tim's cyphernomicon (I think that's what he called it) is a good start. --Declan On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 07:26:15PM -0700, A. Melon wrote: > declan at well.com writes: > > Anonymity allows people to evade laws. Governments don't like that. > > Read the archives. > > It would be nice to see at least one example of something nasty that > could be done with an anonymous remailer in the next few years where > you couldn't get the same effect at the corner phone booth or dropping a > letter in a public mailbox. So far there have been no prohibitions on > sending information anonymously via those mechanisms. Why would email > be singled out? From juicy at melontraffickers.com Tue Sep 4 23:32:32 2001 From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 23:32:32 -0700 Subject: Moral Crypto Message-ID: Tim May writes: > > It would be nice to see at least one example of something nasty that > > could be done with an anonymous remailer in the next few years where > > you couldn't get the same effect at the corner phone booth or dropping a > > letter in a public mailbox. > > Are you dense, or just ignorant? > > Consider the broad class of two-way communications, whether for > information buying and selling, extortion, espionage, arranging contract > killings, etc. Are these sufficiently "nasty" for you? Get real. There's no way these are going to be serious problems in five years. For one thing, they all depend on an established anonymous cash infrastructure for payoff off the crooks, buying the intelligence, etc. There's very little chance that such a system will come into existence soon (look at all the progress in the last five years), and even if it did, any problems with criminal use will be blamed on the cash system, not the email delivery. > Now consider that both the "corner phone booth" and "dropping a letter > in a public mailbox" are untraceable only in _one_ direction. Two-way > communication is not untraceable. Two way anonymous communications have been around for years. Dead drops are a commonly used technique, likewise public postings in classified ads and similar places. It's nothing new and there have been no laws to ban this capability. From trendmarketing at univision.com Tue Sep 4 23:37:52 2001 From: trendmarketing at univision.com (Trend Marketing & Associates) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 23:37:52 Subject: Trend Marketing & Associates Message-ID: <200109050312.UAA02896@toad.com> Trend Marketing & Associates is in the process of maintaining and cleaning its opt in database. You are receiving this message because this email address appears in the database. If you do NOT wish to receive future communication from us nor from our clients please respond to this email and write in the subject line "REMOVE" and you will be permanately eliminated from our database. Thank you. Trend Marketing & Associates está en el proceso de mantenimiento y limpieza de su base de datos. Si usted NO desea recibir ofertas en el futuro por parte nuestra o por parte de nuestros clientes favor de responder a este mensaje escribiendo en la linea del titulo o sujeto "NO MAS". Si no lo hace así el sistema automatizado no lo proceserá. Gracias por su cooperación. From aimee.farr at pobox.com Tue Sep 4 21:45:34 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 23:45:34 -0500 Subject: Moral Crypto isn't wuss-ninnie. In-Reply-To: <200109042305.XAA20882@hey.fuh-q.org> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com]On > Behalf Of Eric Cordian > Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 6:05 PM > To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com > Subject: Re: Moral Crypto isn't wuss-ninnie. > > > Aimee writes: > > > I realize Tim's position, and I respect his right to express > his political > > opinions and ideas, even though I don't agree with them, and > think he is a > > self-identifying flamboyant jackass. I understand that many of > you have the > > same opinions, and likewise.... > > Guess not all Lying Feminist Cunts troll Sex Abuse exclusively. > > -- > Eric Michael Cordian 0+ > O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division > "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" I am not a Feminist. ~Aimee From goin2winn2001 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 4 23:48:37 2001 From: goin2winn2001 at yahoo.com (goin2winn2001 at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 23:48:37 Subject: Let us Pay your way into 3 Rapidly growing MLM companies Message-ID: <200109050505.AAA09322@einstein.ssz.com> THE WANNA BEE FOUNDATION Let us put the pieces together for YOU The Wanna Bee Foundation is NOT a Multi-Level Company. It has NO matrix or payout. We are not putting hundreds of thousands of people into MLM programs, not even hundreds, only a few will get this opportunity to have a chance to become a member of the "Wanna Bee Foundation". Your entry is voted on by the members, then placed into 3 MLM companies (FREE). Only after you are in profit in at least 2 of them, are you required to pay your monthly dues to each of the companies. The annual fee is $29.95. Each individual company will send you a recruiting kit after you become a member. GUARANTEE -- We guarantee you to be in profit before you are asked to complete the applications FOR THE INDIVIDUAL COMPANIES. We will mail out, at no extra cost to you, from one to three million offers a month. All members joining from this email advertising will be placed in all of your downlines. ALL THIS FOR $29.95. PLEASE VISIT: http://hometown.aol.com/joinwbf FOR MORE INFORMATION ABOUT THIS EXCITING OPPORTUNITY. If you are accepted by the WBF, they pay your way into all three companies (any kit fees, plus first month fees). When you are in profit in at least two of the three companies, you are asked to join, and then have 10 days to respond or you lose your position on the team. As a Safelist Emailer member, they mail the WBF information with your ID on it. You even get a copy of the leads that your email advertisement generated (generally between 800 to 3000 per month). You may also use the same leads for any purpose you choose, they can be emailed to you. Now, with each WBF member getting from one to three million email adds sent each month, that adds up to millions + millions of people world wide getting our message each and every month. With this system, getting only one one-hundredth of one percent on the Internet, this will still put new members in each company for YOU every month. Then, the new members will team with you to do more mailings. This message is sent in compliance of the new email bill HR 1910. Under Bill HR 1910 passed by the 106th US Congress on May 24, 1999, this message can not be considered spam as long as we include the way to be removed. Per Section HR 1910., please type REMOVE in the subject line and reply to this email. All removal requests are handled personally and immediately From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Tue Sep 4 17:54:47 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 00:54:47 +0000 Subject: New Worms Seek And Destroy Code Red Message-ID: <200109050054.f850slM51594@mailserver1.hushmail.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 685 bytes Desc: not available URL: From marketing at al-ilmiyah.com Tue Sep 4 16:12:15 2001 From: marketing at al-ilmiyah.com (Jihad Baydoun) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 01:12:15 +0200 Subject: Arabic And Islamic Books Message-ID: <77463832106A.AAR46F7@data450.dm.net.lb> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3470 bytes Desc: not available URL: From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Wed Sep 5 04:31:20 2001 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 04:31:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: <20010905084400.B29327@cluebot.com> from "Declan McCullagh" at Sep 05, 2001 08:44:00 AM Message-ID: <200109051131.LAA22144@hey.fuh-q.org> Declan writes: > What's new here? *Possession* of child porn has been illegal for at > least a decade. Obscenity prosecutions for writing what people find > objectionable have a long history: Joyce, Miller, etc. The legal basis for criminalizing non-obscene erotic depictions of minors is Ferber, which clearly states that such criminalization is Constitutional only when it is necessary to prevent actual persons under the age of 18 from experiencing the harmful workplace environment associated with porn production. Laws which criminalize synthetic visual depictions of the sexuality of minors, as well as written material, which do not depict actual living persons, are clearly unconstitutional under the standard created by Ferber. It is the hope of the Child Sex Hysterics, whose goal is not to protect minors, but to purge from the continuum all counterexamples to their religiously inspired doctrine on the asexuality of persons under 18, that the Sheeple have now been sufficiently programed to react with horror to all depictions of youthful sexuality. This will place the Supreme Court in the position where fabricating from whole cloth a legal justification for criminalizing all such material will be the only alternative to mass rioting in the streets the next time such a case appears before them. I'd rather just shoot the rioters, and raise the average intelligence in the sheep bin by epsilon. If you can criminalize dirty stories, which depict non-obscene sexuality on the part of fictional characters, then you can criminalize just about anything else, including chemistry and cryptography textbooks, and Tom Clancy novels. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From measl at mfn.org Wed Sep 5 05:00:58 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 07:00:58 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: <200109042301.XAA20853@hey.fuh-q.org> Message-ID: This is the case I had in mind when I made my recent assertion that thought==action in today's "court". How can anyone see this case, and not conclude otherwise? This dude is going to spend a long time in stir, for a *pure Thought Crime*. Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Eric Cordian wrote: > Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 16:01:56 -0700 (PDT) > From: Eric Cordian > Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com > To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com > Subject: CDR: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change > > Not unsurprisingly, the judge has refused to permit a man sentenced to 10 > years in prison for textual depictions of child sex in a private journal > to withdraw his guilty plea and get a trial. > > As F. Lee Bailey once said, the major flaw in the American justice system > is that appeals focus only on procedural errors, and ones guilt or > innocence is never again an issue after the original trial, even if that > trial reached the wrong result. > > Having concluded that all the i's were dotted and the t's crossed in the > screwing of Mr. Dalton by the state of Ohio, justice proceeds merrily > onward. > > ----- > > COLUMBUS, Ohio -- A man sentenced to prison for writing fantasies in his > personal journal about torturing and molesting children cannot change his > guilty plea, a judge ruled Tuesday. > > Franklin County Judge Nodine Miller said Brian Dalton did not demonstrate > a "manifest injustice" had taken place. > > Dalton, 22, had asked to withdraw his guilty plea, saying it was not made > knowingly or intelligently, and that he was expecting to be sentenced to > treatment, not 10 years in prison. > > The case alarmed experts in First Amendment and obscenity law, who believe > Dalton is the first person in the country successfully prosecuted for > simply writing what was judged to be child pornography. "Definitely this > is a matter of grave constitutional concerns," said attorney Benson > Wolman, a former executive director of the American Civil Liberties > Union's Ohio chapter. He said he will ask the court to set aside Dalton's > conviction, or file a delayed appeal. > > ... > > -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From blancw at cnw.com Wed Sep 5 07:34:04 2001 From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 07:34:04 -0700 Subject: Moral Anonymizing Message-ID: 1. "make them work for it" (Duncan) 2. You can't prevent them from getting it 3. sell it to them just the same as any other customer 4. sell it to those who can afford it 5. actively pursue them as customers 6. as cooperative sellers, fill out their mandatory forms, tell them your race and gender, and patiently wait longer than usual to get payment 7. maintain a pro-active business relationship with them as a large-volume provider of product and updates for many of their departments and world-wide locations 8. agree to their limits on production and distribution 9. negotiate on backdoors and modifications 10. Happy Cpunk Fun Court is Not Amused You have to know where you can exert influence over quality, and where you want to draw the line against acquiescensce, in order to maintain consistency with your purported philosophy. The prospect for the future is, that either everyone must be made equally weak, or everyone must be allowed to become equally strong. If progress and virtue is in better tools, then eliminating their availability is not an option (although creating tools cannot be enforced, as it requires an intellect and creativity which it is not yet possible to coerce into existence). But providing advanced and useful tools ("giving them the fire") seems to call for a control of consequences which is beyond the humanly possible: they may just end up burning themselves up with it. Why did we, everybody, get bestowed with brains - such potential for power, yet so little wisdom to use it; a little knowledge is such a dangerous thing. .. Blanc From jya at pipeline.com Wed Sep 5 07:34:37 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 07:34:37 -0700 Subject: Official Anonymizing In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010904171424.03746e60@pop3.norton.antivirus> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010904193422.02175ec0@mail.well.com> <200109042040.QAA12188@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <20010904143321.A2385@weathership.homeport.org> <200109041749.NAA26560@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20010831183757.03a22020@pop3.norton.antivirus> <20010904125751.A13920@cluebot.com> <200109041749.NAA26560@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <200109051141.HAA15482@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> Thanks for the cites of Gatti. Greg's disclosure of C2Net's sales is appreciated. Perhaps not surprising. What would be surprising, maybe, would be disclosure as ZKS did in its earliest days, of reporting on meetings C2Net was having with law enforcement officials about its technology. Those admirably exceptionable ZKS reports then stopped, at least I didn't see them after the first few. What I got instead was a rush of advertising from ZKS. Fair enough, as far as business development goes. Those singular souls working at ZKS in the cpunk spirit, are what makes me especially interested in the firm's welfare, in the light of its original goal to make available to the public quite strong privacy protection and anonymity tools. A plan pretty close to the exciting, customer-appealing marketing method outlined by Greg. The ZKS original model did indeed have an anti-authoritarian streak. And presumbly the products live up to that promise. And that is all they do. If ZKS has only explained the technology to the LEAs and sold them the same products as the public gets, then great. And has not been persuaded to do a bit of dirty work as well out of sight of the cpunks. End of concern. Buy its products, invest in it, make the hard workers rich. Still, there is the PGP market model to ponder. And no believable disclosure from Phil why he left, what was done to PGP he could not bear to be a part of so took his settlement and skipped his obligation to his supporters to disclose fully. There is food for thought in why some people leave government service and companies rather than continue to participate in deceptive practices, though often still bound by secrecy agreements and NDAs. I believe that a good bit of the earliest public revelations of cryptology came from such people, as did and does most secret technology used for intrusion on private lives. Diffie hints at being nudged or noodled toward PK by thoughtful researchers. Today there are a host of ex-members of intel agencies telling and warning what they can without being jailed. One recurring theme of those who have worked inside the world of secrecy is how that world has been corrupted by excessive secrecy. And historians regularly write of the corrupting influence of secrecy in government. Undercover law enforcement agents are domestic spies, dreaded secret police in other nations, no matter what spin is put on the need for such operations to fight crime, and they pose a greater danger to civil liberties than the spooks and military from whom they have acquired techniques and technologies devised to combat foreign enemies. This is the crux of the homeland defense demonology, as in times past with other internal demons: government officials treating the citizenry as the enemy within and running secret operations as if intelligence and military operations -- indeed utilizing the resources of those powerful institutions by way of inter-agency agreements to avoid violating law. The Defense Science Board concluded in the Summer of 2000, in particular in its legal recommendations (a panel chaired by ex-NSA counsel Stewart Baker) that it was time to change law prohibiting domestic operations by intel and the military, that this change is needed to combat domestic terrorism and for "protecting the homeland." The DSB report in two parts: "Protecting the Homeland" http://cryptome.org/pth.htm "Defensive Information Operations" http://cryptome.org/dio/dio.htm Painfully ironic is that "protecting the homeland" is a siren sung by every government, left, right and center, which sees its citizenry as the enemy and argues the need for secret police, urges citizens informing on each other, runs secret courts, and generally stigmatizes anti-government conduct, yes, and speech. Anybody who continues to argue that AP was not used to convict Jim Bell, and that a crackdown on speech, not merely conduct, is not underway, lives in a bubble of ignorance or privilege. Or, more likely, is peddling deception as successful businesses ever must do after reaching maturity and youthful promises peter out. From mattd at useoz.com Tue Sep 4 14:36:20 2001 From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 07:36:20 +1000 Subject: ...considered boring Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010905072724.009da890@pop.useoz.com> . V AB wrote.>For example, ideas like FreeNet, which are derived from the cryptoanarchist school of thought. So, the answer to your question is that it's interesting to me and I'm the one doing the programming. If you can come up with something more interesting I'll probably be happy to work on it. But I'm not really interested in padding the pockets of the Lime Group, LCC. and I'm buzz worded out on P2P. What I like is the idea of trying to revitalize the cypherpunk movement - even a very tiny little bit. I'm really very disappointed with the Individual Sovereignty/Cryptoanarchy subculture lately. It seems to be running out of steam. There seems to be very few people working on interesting things. Coderpunks is a ghost town with occasional spam rolling through like a tumble weed, and cypherpunks seems to be obsessed with Jim Bell like a bunch of little girls over the back street boys. < Cant you be obsessed with JB and Cryptoanarchy/freenet? Like if some outlaws dont unite and fight(using AP)with some indians,we'll all be forced down the trail of tears to the freenet reservation. Fuck that. From declan at well.com Wed Sep 5 05:23:50 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 08:23:50 -0400 Subject: biochemwomdterror in dc Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010905082334.00a56020@mail.well.com> topday: SENATE FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE Bioterrorism Full committee hearing on the treat of bioterrorism and the spread of infectious diseases. Witnesses: Sam Nunn, co-chairman/CEO, Nuclear Threat Initiative; James Woolsey, former director, CIA, partner, Shea and Gardner; D.A. Henderson, director, Center for Civilian Biodefense Studies, Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, MD; David Heymann, executive director, Communicable Diseases, World Health Organization, Geneva, Switzerland; Fred Ikle, distinguished scholar, Center for Strategic and International Studies; Frank Cilluffo, senior policy analyst, Center for Strategic and International Studies Location: 419 Dirksen Senate Office Building. 10 a.m. Contact: 202-224-3953 http://senate.gov/committee/foreign.html SENATE HEALTH, EDUCATION, LABOR AND PENSIONS COMMITTEE Stem Cell Research Full committee hearing to examine stem cell research issues. Witnesses: Sen. Arlen Specter, R-Pa.; HHS Secretary Tommy Thompson; Douglas Melton, Ph.D., Thomas Dudley Cabot Professor in the Natural Sciences, chairman, Department of Molecular and Cellular Biology, Harvard University; Karen Hersey, senior counsel, Intellectual Property, Massachusetts Institute of Technology; James Childress, Ph.D., Edwin Kyle Professor of Religious Ethics, University of Virginia; Kevin FitzGerald, SJ Ph.D., Georgetown University; John Chute, head, Hematopoietic Stem Cell Studies Section, NIDDK/Navy Transplantation and Autoimmunity Branch at NIH/Bethesda Naval Medical Center Location: 106 Dirksen Senate Office Building. 9:30 a.m. Contact: 202-224-5375 http://www.senate.gov/~labor **REVISED** From honig at sprynet.com Wed Sep 5 08:32:03 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 08:32:03 -0700 Subject: Piggybacking tools for deployment is the point (was Re: Moral Crypto) In-Reply-To: <705d55a68e5e455cd4a9e0530246c7b6@dizum.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010905083203.00889540@pop.sprynet.com> At 09:30 AM 9/5/01 +0200, Nomen Nescio wrote: >On Sun, 2 Sep 2001, David Honig wrote: >> At 12:34 PM 9/2/01 -0700, Tim May wrote: >> >Then design such a system. >> You did a few lines earlier: >> >(Or if one is a remailer oneself.) > >Or, simply have a remailer client that randomly generates dummy traffic, >and be sure to chain through multiple remailers. You don't need to accept >incoming remailer traffic from other live people -- this is sufficient to >hide when, if ever, you are using the remailer network. Yes, however my emphesis was on the *deployment* of the tools by "piggybacking" on other very-popular p2p-ish tools. >You still stick out as a remailer user, though. Not if the next versions of IE or Windows or Morpheus contains remailer functionality enabled by default! That's the point. If every copy of Windows(Chinese) came with then it would be hard to bust people for possession of the tools. If every copy of Windows(English) came with enabled, it would be hard to bust people for running a remailer. >(A while ago, someone posted a physics question usnig a remailer, and Tim >mused that they were probably a troll, since they were using a remailer to >pose this question. I found that remark surprising, for precisely this >reason. Everyone should use remailers from time to time to ask innocent >questions, in case of being asked by The Authorities to provide an example >of one's correspondence using such technology.) Yes; however its also possible the author didn't want their ignorance associated with a given nym. ....... "Perhaps this whole thing is just one person talking to himself, with Tim listening in!" -Dr Evil From declan at well.com Wed Sep 5 05:39:23 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 08:39:23 -0400 Subject: Moral Crypto In-Reply-To: <0dffd49964f5e7725c25b58f9206334b@dizum.com>; from nobody@dizum.com on Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 09:50:38AM +0200 References: <0dffd49964f5e7725c25b58f9206334b@dizum.com> Message-ID: <20010905083923.A29327@cluebot.com> On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 09:50:38AM +0200, Nomen Nescio wrote: > Declan brought this up in a "sky-is-falling" article about remailers and > anti-spam legislation. I do not believe this is a valid threat. This is incorrect on at least two points: My artcle did not say such a law was particularly likely, so it hardly deserves to be characterized as "sky is falling." (My position is only that folks should consider what would happen if such a law were to be passed.) Second, someone else brought up anti-spam legislation. -Declan From declan at well.com Wed Sep 5 05:44:00 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 08:44:00 -0400 Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: ; from measl@mfn.org on Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 07:00:58AM -0500 References: <200109042301.XAA20853@hey.fuh-q.org> Message-ID: <20010905084400.B29327@cluebot.com> On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 07:00:58AM -0500, measl at mfn.org wrote: > This is the case I had in mind when I made my recent assertion that > thought==action in today's "court". How can anyone see this case, and not > conclude otherwise? This dude is going to spend a long time in stir, for > a *pure Thought Crime*. What's new here? *Possession* of child porn has been illegal for at least a decade. Obscenity prosecutions for writing what people find objectionable have a long history: Joyce, Miller, etc. Take a longer view. -Declan From honig at sprynet.com Wed Sep 5 08:51:56 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 08:51:56 -0700 Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: <200109051356.JAA07974@granger.mail.mindspring.net> References: <20010905084400.B29327@cluebot.com> <200109042301.XAA20853@hey.fuh-q.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010905085156.00888460@pop.sprynet.com> At 09:49 AM 9/5/01 -0700, John Young wrote: >Isn't what is new here is that the man did not publish this material >as was the material of Joyce, Miller, et al? Nobody saw it except >him and the cop who discovered it. Wasn't it his *parents* who read his journal and turned him in, hoping for 'treatment' instead of jail? Shades of David & Ted Kaczynski... From gbroiles at well.com Wed Sep 5 09:17:30 2001 From: gbroiles at well.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 09:17:30 -0700 Subject: Official Anonymizing In-Reply-To: <200109051141.HAA15482@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20010904171424.03746e60@pop3.norton.antivirus> <5.0.2.1.0.20010904193422.02175ec0@mail.well.com> <200109042040.QAA12188@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <20010904143321.A2385@weathership.homeport.org> <200109041749.NAA26560@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20010831183757.03a22020@pop3.norton.antivirus> <20010904125751.A13920@cluebot.com> <200109041749.NAA26560@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010905085856.03690e70@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 07:34 AM 9/5/2001 -0700, John Young wrote: >Thanks for the cites of Gatti. > >Greg's disclosure of C2Net's sales is appreciated. Perhaps not >surprising. What would be surprising, maybe, would be disclosure >as ZKS did in its earliest days, of reporting on meetings C2Net was >having with law enforcement officials about its technology. Didn't happen - at least not within my knowledge. I don't think we'd have been willing to have one, given our crypto export control stance (and paranoia about law enforcement) at that point. Given the state of the law at that time (lots of this was before Patel's rulings in _Bernstein_, during the ITAR period before BXA took over crypto regs, and way before the export liberalization), we weren't at all sure we weren't going to be arrested and made examples of, cf. Dmitry Sklyarov. Law enforcement never asked for a meeting, probably because of (a) ignorance of or disinterest in the technology, or (b) if they did understand it, they also understood that we were essentially selling Apache-SSL (from a technical standpoint), so if they wanted a copy to beat up on, they could build it themselves - they didn't need an RSA license to legitimize their internal/research copies. We did get a moderate amount of interest in the remailers/anonymizers which ran at C2 in the early days, and later were run somewhere else but whose domain name was held by C2; callers on that topic generally got a nice long explanation of how remailers work, how we didn't know the identity of the person running the remailer nor its physical location, why we supported remailers as free speech tools, and how as a provider of DNS lookups we never had any logs of activity in the first place to disclose, whether or not we had wanted to, court order or not. Complainers pretty much went away after getting the explanation, save for one publisher of avant-garde fonts who never did give up trying to cajole or scare us into giving out the information we didn't have, and/or shutting down DNS to the privacy stuff. I think ZKS' technology is more interesting and more threatening to law enforcement than our web crypto tools were - there's still not a lot of evil or disorder that goes on related to, literally, the web - I get the impression that law enforcement is a lot more interested in IRC, email, and other communications which are either more personal and immediate, or much less personal and immediate (like Usenet). Web sites are still relatively static, which means their providers are pretty easily identified, which means not so much bad stuff happens there. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at well.com "We have found and closed the thing you watch us with." -- New Delhi street kids From nobody at dizum.com Wed Sep 5 00:30:08 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 09:30:08 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Moral Crypto Message-ID: <6d56447f244764068cb7df0c4f013b9a@dizum.com> On Sun, 2 Sep 2001 georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote: > If the remailer operators decided they wanted to deny "baddies" > use of their services, they would not only have to unanimously > agree as to who the "baddies" are, they would also have to deny > their services in all cases where the client cannot be positovely > identified. Neither of which strikes me as being plausible. We do this (or some of us do.) When a spammer is detected, often his IP address or email address is added to a block list. It doesn't work all that well. We can't block people -- only electronic representations of them. From nobody at dizum.com Wed Sep 5 00:30:11 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 09:30:11 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Moral Crypto Message-ID: <705d55a68e5e455cd4a9e0530246c7b6@dizum.com> On Sun, 2 Sep 2001, David Honig wrote: > At 12:34 PM 9/2/01 -0700, Tim May wrote: > >Someone else: > >> The fact that you may be > >> identifiable at the point of entry to an anonymity system is > >> a weakness, not a desired feature, and if it can be avoided, it > >> should be. > >> > > > >Then design such a system. > > > You did a few lines earlier: > > >(Or if one is a remailer oneself.) Or, simply have a remailer client that randomly generates dummy traffic, and be sure to chain through multiple remailers. You don't need to accept incoming remailer traffic from other live people -- this is sufficient to hide when, if ever, you are using the remailer network. You still stick out as a remailer user, though. (A while ago, someone posted a physics question usnig a remailer, and Tim mused that they were probably a troll, since they were using a remailer to pose this question. I found that remark surprising, for precisely this reason. Everyone should use remailers from time to time to ask innocent questions, in case of being asked by The Authorities to provide an example of one's correspondence using such technology.) From nobody at dizum.com Wed Sep 5 00:30:19 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 09:30:19 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Moral Crypto Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Sep 2001, Nomen Nescio wrote: > The fact that a given person is using the remailer network is not a > secret. At least one remailer finds out every time he sends a message. > The point is, the entry from the non-anonymous to the anonymous world > is a vulnerability. Unless you run a remailer yourself. The fact that I use anonymous remailers would be hard to deny, if am a remailer operator. However, if I make my own remailer first in the chain, an attacker sitting at the second remailer will not be able to tell when I am using my remailer myself vs. when it is being used by others vs. dummy cover traffic. From juicy at melontraffickers.com Wed Sep 5 09:40:58 2001 From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 09:40:58 -0700 Subject: Official Anonymizing Message-ID: John Young takes a courageous stand: > I propose that all anonymizers adopt a code of practice that > any sale to officials of anonymizers or their use be disclosed > to the public (I suggested this to ZKS early on when first > meetings with the feds to explain the technology were being > sometimes disclosed). That seems to be a reasonable response > to officially-secret prowling and investigating cyberspace. Absolutely appropriate, given cypherpunk goals. It may be difficult to apply in every case but the intention is laudable. Here is an example of the principle put into practice, from the anonymous web proxy service at http://proxy.magusnet.com/proxy.html: : If you are accessing this proxy from a *.mil or *.gov address : it will not work. As a taxpaying United States Citizen[TM], : Business Owner, and Desert Storm Veteran, I do not want my : tax dollars being used by agencies I pay for to gawk(1) : at WWW pages and hide your origination point at my expense. : Now, get back to work! From jya at pipeline.com Wed Sep 5 09:49:12 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 09:49:12 -0700 Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: <20010905084400.B29327@cluebot.com> References: <200109042301.XAA20853@hey.fuh-q.org> Message-ID: <200109051356.JAA07974@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Isn't what is new here is that the man did not publish this material as was the material of Joyce, Miller, et al? Nobody saw it except him and the cop who discovered it. It was the Man who published, converted private scribblings into illegal material, not the man. Neat trick, the drooling officials building private collections, like the story today of the Soviets amassing a huge stock of erotica, now and then visited by officials who, the porno librarian claims, always expressed shock and outrage, then purloined a few samples for private use. "What could I do about the stealing," the librarian is quoted, "they were officials." If officials possess gobs of kiddie porn, as many confessedly brag, and claim to be shocked, shocked, and eagerly exhibit the stuff to judges and juries and court attendants who are shocked, shocked, what is wrong with that? Thank Buddha the FBI is working closely with the Red Chinese, reported in the WSJ yesterday, in US-Chineses criminal investigations to balance the US promoting anonymizers to bypass Chinese clampdown on the Internet. What is Carnivore called in the PRC? There will be no peepholes in anonymizers trusted by the citizen users. A bit of loose code, hardly noticeable, but thankfully no moral code, why that would be consumer/ customer/voter/dissident/reputation/gosh my editor, my boss did it, I couldn't have known, I'm only human, the pressure was incredible/here are my private scribblings trust me betrayal. From nobody at dizum.com Wed Sep 5 00:50:36 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 09:50:36 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Official Anonymizing Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, John Young wrote: > Nobody has yet seen an fbi.gov in the logs, or nsa.mil/gov, > though a few ucia.gov and nro.gov crop up, and the ubiquitous > nscs.mil. fbi.gov = .usdoj.gov, as far as web logs go. From nobody at dizum.com Wed Sep 5 00:50:38 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 09:50:38 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Moral Crypto Message-ID: <0dffd49964f5e7725c25b58f9206334b@dizum.com> On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Eric Murray wrote: > Another way to kill remailers would be through anti-spam legislation > that forbids "forging" email headers. We're already seeing some of > this. Declan brought this up in a "sky-is-falling" article about remailers and anti-spam legislation. I do not believe this is a valid threat. Mail from "juicy at melontraffickers.com" does come from the melontraffickers.com server. It is not forged. (Such legistion would protect against unfortunate instances like the flowers.com case.) This *would* require some remailers, like frog2, to stop allowing "From:" line specification. But that's hardly a big issue. > My guess is that the first or second is most likely. It won't even be > targeted at remailers, just at regular email. > > Killing remailers will be a by-product of regulating the net. Unless the next Tim McVeigh ever uses a remailer in his life. Mark my words: The next major act of domestic terrorism will somehow involve either crypto or remailers, *according to the government investigators' reports.* Insert appropriate fnords where necessary. From gbroiles at well.com Wed Sep 5 10:12:25 2001 From: gbroiles at well.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 10:12:25 -0700 Subject: Official Anonymizing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010905100242.036c0750@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 09:40 AM 9/5/2001 -0700, A. Melon wrote: >Here is an example of the principle put into practice, from the >anonymous web proxy service at http://proxy.magusnet.com/proxy.html: > >: If you are accessing this proxy from a *.mil or *.gov address >: it will not work. As a taxpaying United States Citizen[TM], >: Business Owner, and Desert Storm Veteran, I do not want my >: tax dollars being used by agencies I pay for to gawk(1) >: at WWW pages and hide your origination point at my expense. >: Now, get back to work! Sure, that's an understandable sentiment, but isn't this also isolating the good (or teachable) people inside government who might be open-minded about freedom or crypto or whatever, such that they can't learn from us, and such that (in the case of anonymizing tools) they can't leak information? I think there's an argument that it's useful to provide pipes into secretive organizations which allow insiders to release information with reduced fear of internal retaliation - sure, they may be used for provocation and disinformation, but they also may be used for and by decent people. (Like, for example, Fred Whitehurst, a supervisory special agent in the FBI's crime lab, who revealed systematic dishonesty, incompetence, perjury, and contamination in the agency's high-profile analytic & forensic operations - see or .) I don't think this question is as easy as it sounds at first. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at well.com "We have found and closed the thing you watch us with." -- New Delhi street kids From adam at homeport.org Wed Sep 5 07:35:37 2001 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 10:35:37 -0400 Subject: Official Anonymizing In-Reply-To: <200109051141.HAA15482@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> References: <200109042040.QAA12188@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <20010904143321.A2385@weathership.homeport.org> <200109041749.NAA26560@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20010831183757.03a22020@pop3.norton.antivirus> <20010904125751.A13920@cluebot.com> <200109041749.NAA26560@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20010904171424.03746e60@pop3.norton.antivirus> <200109051141.HAA15482@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <20010905103537.A11733@weathership.homeport.org> On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 07:34:37AM -0700, John Young wrote: | Thanks for the cites of Gatti. | | Greg's disclosure of C2Net's sales is appreciated. Perhaps not | surprising. What would be surprising, maybe, would be disclosure | as ZKS did in its earliest days, of reporting on meetings C2Net was | having with law enforcement officials about its technology. Those | admirably exceptionable ZKS reports then stopped, at least I didn't | see them after the first few. What I got instead was a rush of | advertising from ZKS. Fair enough, as far as business | development goes. They'd have gotten rather stale after the first few. After all, we didn't include names, so the only thing you'd have seen changing was the date. As far as I know, there haven't been any in a while. Once we got our message and delivery down, the message seemed to spread that we were not adding any back doors, and hey, this is useful for undercover work and preventing crimes. TLAs have gotten no special delivery packages. I don't really see why they'd want them, except perhaps to shave their budgets. We said when we shipped 1.0 that we wouldn't stand up to a TLA attack. We (Ian, myself, and later Adam Back) have written a 15 page paper on how to attack our system. Which is far more than any other security or privacy provider I'm aware of. Adam -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From adam at homeport.org Wed Sep 5 07:46:33 2001 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 10:46:33 -0400 Subject: Official Anonymizing In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010904193422.02175ec0@mail.well.com> References: <20010904143321.A2385@weathership.homeport.org> <200109041749.NAA26560@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20010831183757.03a22020@pop3.norton.antivirus> <20010904125751.A13920@cluebot.com> <200109041749.NAA26560@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <200109042040.QAA12188@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <5.0.2.1.0.20010904193422.02175ec0@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <20010905104633.A11784@weathership.homeport.org> On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 07:53:12PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: | Let me try to restate John's proposal, which has some very attractive | qualities. There are a few questions, it seems to me: | | 1. Should we require by law that government employees never act under cover | of anonymity? (In practice, what does that mean? Does that mean they can't | lie about their truename, or does it mean that they have to affirmatively | volunteer their employment status?) The mice voted to bell the cat. | I think John has a valid point when he says that we should look askance at | anonymity firms that help government spy on us. Companies would be | well-advised to make their practices (we sell to Feds, we refuse to sell to | Feds) public. But the market being what it is, the tools so well-discussed | in so many circles, and the switch from .mil or .gov to .org or .com so | easy, that I suspect such promises might give us only a false sense of | security. I think much more interesting is the question of government funded anonymity tools. The paranoid might think they're trying to drive others out of business. Is it even legal (in the US) to refuse to sell to the feds? I know that many companies have seperate entities (ie, Sun Federal Systems) to avoid some of the more onerous restrictions, like needing to give your best deal to the feds. Adam | -Declan | | At 04:33 PM 9/4/01 -0700, John Young wrote: | >I try to abide the principle that if one gets anonymized | >all should. However, there is a disparity in who gets | >to leverage that anonymity -- from the citizen to the | >empowered official. | > | >We have now more privilege of conealment on the official | >side, and that needs redress, constant redress a rebel | >might yell. | > | >Not much of my proposal is radical: there is a long tradition | >for officials to own up to what they do in their official | >roles. The uniformed police, the uniformed military | >services. That is far less done in the case of the spooks | >and, increasingly lately, law enforcement and the military | >as the latter adopt the practices and more importantly | >the technology of spooks -- and the spooks' lack of | >public accountability (those oversight committees are | >a fraud). | > | >The culture of secrecy is vastly overweighted in favor of | >government, and much of that derives from hoary claims | >of national security. Undercover and covert operations | >have become far more pervasive in the US government | >and military than ever, and constitute a privileged elite in | >mil/gov, and often law enforcement, moving from the | >federal agencies into state and locals -- and contractors | >and suppliers for all these. And all are bound by a | >complicitous and luxurious veil of secrecy. | > | >It is fairly common for goodhearts to question government | >but not when national security, and more recently, domestic | >security, is bruited. But that is due to a well-crafted educational | >campaign to raise national security to a theological level, and | >its rational is itself cloaked in secrecy. A similar theologizing | >is underway, methinks despite Declan's unreflective demurral, | >in the campaign for combatting domestic terrorism, the | >Homeland Defense demonolgy. | > | >Having learned much here about the futility of trying to determine | >who gets privacy technology and who does not, it remains true | >that for most of us access to this technology is very recent and we | >know not what lies outside our knowledge. | > | >I am not as sanguine about government as I was before being | >semi-educated by this list about what technology is in covert use. | > | >And I am not as sanguine about the wisdom of providing technology | >to government on the same footing as the citizen. There is more | >than a bit of marketing opportunism is this view -- and government | >knows very well what power the purse has to seduce young firms | >into the world of secrecy. | > | >So I say again, that despite it being economic foolhardiness, indeed | >because it is that, there needs to be a code of practice for anonimyzer | >developers to state their policy of helping governments snoop on | >us without us knowing. Agnosticism in this matter is complicity | >when such a stance cloaks government intrusiveness. | > | >Look, I'll accept that we will all succumb to the power of the market, | >so limit my proposal for full disclosure to those over 30. After that | >age one should know there is no way to be truly open-minded. -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From 1.10198689.-13 at multexinvestornetwork.com Wed Sep 5 08:29:23 2001 From: 1.10198689.-13 at multexinvestornetwork.com (Multex Investor) Date: 5 Sep 2001 11:29:23 -0400 Subject: Test Your Investment Strategy. Win Prizes. Message-ID: <074462329150591MINLIST1@multexinvestornetwork.com> ********************************************************************* As a registered Multex Investor member, we will occasionally contact you with special opportunities. To unsubscribe to this or any other exclusive offers, please see the bottom of this message. ********************************************************************* Dear Multex Investor Member, Trading has begun in the fourth round of the Multex Investor Challenge. Don't miss out on your chance to win $25,000 and other great prizes by managing a $100,000 virtual portfolio. 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You may also unsubscribe on the account update page at: http://www.multexinvestor.com/edituinfo.asp =================================================================== Please email advertising inquiries to us at: mailto:advertise at multex.com. From mmotyka at lsil.com Wed Sep 5 11:44:28 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 11:44:28 -0700 Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change Message-ID: <3B96728C.27ED7437@lsil.com> Well, I'm not totally retarded but I still don't always follow JYA that well. I'll keep trying. Did the OH guy have a lawyer? If so, did he follow the advice he was given? While I would not myself send the guy to prison for his writings however goofy or sick I may find them, a person who writes this stuff runs a serious risk of my interpreting even the slightest action on his part as intent and of getting himself gutted in the spot. The thoughts color the interpretation of the actions. Mike From declan at well.com Wed Sep 5 09:17:58 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 12:17:58 -0400 Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: <200109051356.JAA07974@granger.mail.mindspring.net>; from jya@pipeline.com on Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 09:49:12AM -0700 References: <200109042301.XAA20853@hey.fuh-q.org> <20010905084400.B29327@cluebot.com> <200109051356.JAA07974@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <20010905121758.B387@cluebot.com> On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 09:49:12AM -0700, John Young wrote: > Isn't what is new here is that the man did not publish this material > as was the material of Joyce, Miller, et al? Nobody saw it except > him and the cop who discovered it. It was the Man who published, > converted private scribblings into illegal material, not the man. No, this isn't new. You didn't read my earlier message carefully. Mere possession (not creation) of visual depictions of child pornography has been a federal felony for at least a decade. Someone who's a "collector" who did not publish the material would be a felon. Note I'm not defending the law, and there are plenty of problems with the Ohio prosecution, but it is not something that folks here should be particularly surprised about. -Declan From jya at pipeline.com Wed Sep 5 12:22:41 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 12:22:41 -0700 Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: <20010905121758.B387@cluebot.com> References: <200109051356.JAA07974@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <200109042301.XAA20853@hey.fuh-q.org> <20010905084400.B29327@cluebot.com> <200109051356.JAA07974@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <200109051629.MAA31130@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Declan, you condescending prig, I did read your message and was trying to askance your clubfingeredness about "possession," which isn't as monolithic as you vaunt and which smacked overmuch of LEAs' agressive erasure of distinctions. Hector me not, for the failure to look behind heavy-handed law enforcement, dementia, concerning kiddie porn can be interpreted as complicity, or worse, distancing from the obligation to relook, rethink, and re-examine one's own proclivities to avoid the worst dispute in the country. The pathology of kiddie porn is probably the vilest plague upon the land, and that is due to bravehearts running scared of the infected nuts who may, if they have their way, beat out abortion and guns and vile government as pointless no-brainers. Come back, Smokey, tell me something new about what's wrong with "possession" in this particular case, not what is in the read the fucking manual before I waste my time wasting mine. Coda: I'm trying a new pseudo-comprehensible writing style, so fuck off. No vanity sig just yet but it will come. From frissell at panix.com Wed Sep 5 09:23:19 2001 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 12:23:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Sep 2001 measl at mfn.org wrote: > This is the case I had in mind when I made my recent assertion that > thought==action in today's "court". How can anyone see this case, and not > conclude otherwise? This dude is going to spend a long time in stir, for > a *pure Thought Crime*. > > > Yours, > > J.A. Terranson > sysadmin at mfn.org > To which the mentally retarded twit plead guilty. If you plead guilty (like Michael Milken or Jim Bell 1) you don't get to challange the prosecution. People who plead guilty in political cases like these get more time (on average) than those who contest them. Kipling had some advice for these sorts of cases: Dane-Geld A.D. 980-1016 It is always a temptation to an armed and agile nation To call upon a neighbour and to say:-- "We invaded you last night--we are quite prepared to fight, Unless you pay us cash to go away." And that is called asking for Dane-geld, And the people who ask it explain That you've only to pay 'em the Dane-geld And then you'll get rid of the Dane! It is always a temptation for a rich and lazy nation, To puff and look important and to say:-- "Though we know we should defeat you, we have not the time to meet you. We will therefore pay you cash to go away." And that is called paying the Dane-geld; But we've proved it again and again, That if once you have paid him the Dane-geld You never get rid of the Dane. It is wrong to put temptation in the path of any nation, For fear they should succumb and go astray; So when you are requested to pay up or be molested, You will find it better policy to say:-- "We never pay any-one Dane-geld, No matter how trifling the cost; For the end of that game is oppression and shame, And the nation that pays it is lost!" DCF From mmotyka at lsil.com Wed Sep 5 12:26:32 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 12:26:32 -0700 Subject: speech + action Message-ID: <3B967C68.83051995@lsil.com> Tim May wrote : >On Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 10:59 AM, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: > >> Declan McCullagh wrote: >>> >>> On Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 10:59:54AM -0700, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: >>>> Sure, I mention it because despite its being non-functional and >>>> unpunishable it seemed to have been brought into the courtroom with >>>> the >>>> purpose of spicing up the case. >>> >>> Sure. If you commit unacceptable-to-the-gvt *actions* and also spend a >>> lot of time talking about how government officials should be >>> assassinated, you may reasonably expect those statements to be used >>> against you during your trial. >>> I think the speech, irrelevant as it was, was used to increase the perceived severity of the actions. Isn't this in effect being punished for speech+action? >>> But that is a far cry from your earlier government-has-this-power >>> position, from which you're now backtracking. >>> >>> -Declan >>> >> Not so much backtracking as thinking out loud. Just musing on how the >> letter of the law, its constitutionality, enforcement and even the >> reasoning behind its creation are not always lined up so well. >> >> 18 U.S.C. 23 1 contains the seeds of the speech+action idea. >> > >Please explain. You made the first assertion of this, then "backslid" as >people poked holes in your argument, now you appear to be swinging back >in the other direction merely by asserting something about "seeds." > Really little to explain. Obviously laws cover speech + action. It's just a question of where the boundaries are in their application. I don't know too much about those finer points. [CITE: 18USC371] TITLE 18--CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE PART I--CRIMES CHAPTER 19--CONSPIRACY Sec. 371. Conspiracy to commit offense or to defraud United States If two or more persons conspire either to commit any offense against the United States, or to defraud the United States, or any agency thereof in any manner or for any purpose, and one or more of such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both. Could this be applied to software development? I suppose that depends on whether the software in design is prohibited or not. Until the DMCA is altered or deleted there's already a class of SW that is illegal. It doesn't seem so far-fetched that a discussion of content piracy followed by an active coding project could be attacked. Why not a discussion of tax evasion methods followed by a development project? And don't forget that it's still possible to run afoul of the crypto export regulations. Are our visionary legislators capable of outlawing new classes of software? It's a sure bet. I'll leave it to the lawyers to argue over how specific the speech and actions need to be. Want to test it? Start a project with the stated goals of providing a neat open source project with the stated purpose of cracking and exchanging e-books and start posting code. If you were to start YAPPFSP ( yet another peer to peer file sharing project ) would you state its purpose as "to share pirated music data?" >Could you give a cite for any prosecutions, or are you just speculating >that "Happy Fun Court" will not be "amused" by free speech? > I'm sure there are plenty of conspiracy cases involving the more blatant crimes like kidnapping etc... Are there any militia cases? Like you said, try and find one. The law as written does seem to outlaw speech. The anti-militia laws are interesting in that the least popular are likely to suffer first from "creative" legislation. If an approach is successful against the unpopular then it can always be expanded to include new groups. I offer the bomz and drug speech legislation as further attempts along the same lines. Successful, no, not yet, but they'll keep trying. If they are eventually successful it will cost somebody a bundle to get it overturned. That's a market problem : it's cheaper to make bad law than it is to unmake it. As for the fictional Happy Fun Court's inquisitorial wet dreams, it can go spoliate its head in a bucket. >Comment: It seems to me we are seeing way too many people hitting the >panic button, speculating about some of us getting shot by agents of >happy fun courts, claiming that merely using secrecy methods is >spoliation, arguing that speech is being criminalized, and that, in >essence, we'd all better just slink away from these free speech and >crypto thoughtcrimes. > Speculating yes, panic button, no. It can be instructive to pursue an idea to an extreme. >Fuck that. Don't let the wuss ninnies scare you off. > >--TIm May > Ah, the dreaded wuss-ninnies. I'm not losing any sleep over the Happy Fun Court or its cackling brigade of wuss-ninnies. I'm more concerned that all of the cat5 wires I pulled through the smurf tubes this past weekend are not damaged so I don't have to crawl around my fucking attic anymore. If there's anything I dislike more than wuss-ninnies it's blown-in fiberglass. Mike Question : is steganography code export restricted or is it not even described under the current set of rules? From gbroiles at well.com Wed Sep 5 12:46:01 2001 From: gbroiles at well.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 12:46:01 -0700 Subject: Official Anonymizing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010905120423.03b3a9d0@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 02:37 PM 9/5/2001 -0400, Faustine wrote: > >And, in the spirit of full disclosure, I'll mention that at C2Net we did > >sell our software to the government/intelligence agencies who wanted it - > >they paid the same prices as any other customers, signed the same sales > >contracts (we'd negotiate some on warranty terms for big purchases), and > >otherwise got what everyone else got - not more, not less. > >Your honesty is admirable--and unlike certain other cases, I don't have any >real reason to doubt what you say. But are you sure you have adequate >security and counter-economic espionage measures in place? Have you had >anyone do penetration testing lately? How much do you trust the people you >work with? Everything I've mentioned about C2Net is now several years old - I left the company in the last few months of 1998, and they've since been acquired and swallowed-up by Red Hat (RHAT), and (almost?) everyone who worked there when I was there has also left. If I weren't confident that I'm talking about history, not current events, I wouldn't be saying anything. (.. and there are some parts of the C2Net history which I'll likely never be in a position to disclose, ethically speaking, because of the nature of my relationship (general counsel) with the organization. Caveat emptor.) We did take an active interest in the security of our systems and codebase - I don't think we were perfect, with respect to physical or electronic security, but we were pretty paranoid, perhaps at some cost to the personal lives of the principals involved. But your points about insider risks are well taken - especially given that most security incidents have an inside, not outside, source. I believe that the software we published was free of intentional holes or errors, and was built as carefully as we knew how; that belief is based on my familiarity with the build environment, and my knowledge over several years of the people involved in the development process, and my impressions of their competence and integrity. Still, people's expectations and faith in other people can be misplaced - c.f. Aldrich Ames, Robert Hanssen (a personal friend of James [Puzzle Palace, Body of Secrets] Bamford, who never suspected), and Brian Regan - I don't know of any method or practice which can prevent hidden betrayal, for love or money or boredom or personal animus. And Ken Thompson's "Reflections on Trusting Trust" serves as a reminder of how subtle a betrayal or compromise can be, yet remain active and dangerous. A big part of our counter-economic-coercion resistance was ideological - if people really believe that they're working to protect and defend freedom and privacy, it's hard to tempt them with money, at least not just a little money. On the other hand, it's easier to tempt them with ideological arguments, which are cheaper; or for them to become so entranced with each other's political correctness that they lose sight of basic personal integrity and decency. (We didn't have trouble with that at C2Net, but it's historically been a problem inside ideologically-motivated organizations or groups.) >With a lot of >young tech companies having spent the last few years feeling fat, happy, >and oh-so-much smarter than those fusty old feds, you've got a potentially >massive disaster in the making. Pride goeth before destruction; and a haughty spirit before a fall. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at well.com "We have found and closed the thing you watch us with." -- New Delhi street kids From declan at well.com Wed Sep 5 09:53:26 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 12:53:26 -0400 Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: <200109051629.MAA31130@granger.mail.mindspring.net>; from jya@pipeline.com on Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 12:22:41PM -0700 References: <200109051356.JAA07974@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <200109042301.XAA20853@hey.fuh-q.org> <20010905084400.B29327@cluebot.com> <200109051356.JAA07974@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <20010905121758.B387@cluebot.com> <200109051629.MAA31130@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <20010905125326.A1305@cluebot.com> John, my ill-mannered, surly, and lovable friend, you may have read it, but you sure didn't understand it. My point, such as it is, is that the Ohio case is a natural expansion and mild evolution of "child porn" laws in the U.S. If y'all are going to get upset about the Ohio statute and prosecution, then you should be looking critically at state and federal obscenity laws and child porn laws as well. John, to his credit, seems to be doing that. -Declan On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 12:22:41PM -0700, John Young wrote: > Declan, you condescending prig, I did read your message and > was trying to askance your clubfingeredness about "possession," > which isn't as monolithic as you vaunt and which smacked > overmuch of LEAs' agressive erasure of distinctions. > > Hector me not, for the failure to look behind heavy-handed > law enforcement, dementia, concerning kiddie porn can > be interpreted as complicity, or worse, distancing from the > obligation to relook, rethink, and re-examine one's own > proclivities to avoid the worst dispute in the country. > > The pathology of kiddie porn is probably the vilest plague > upon the land, and that is due to bravehearts running scared > of the infected nuts who may, if they have their way, beat > out abortion and guns and vile government as pointless > no-brainers. > > Come back, Smokey, tell me something new about what's > wrong with "possession" in this particular case, not what > is in the read the fucking manual before I waste my time > wasting mine. > > Coda: > > I'm trying a new pseudo-comprehensible writing style, so > fuck off. No vanity sig just yet but it will come. From fisherm at tce.com Wed Sep 5 11:11:31 2001 From: fisherm at tce.com (Fisher Mark) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 13:11:31 -0500 Subject: Moral Crypto Message-ID: > Compare this with the original claim: "in a properly designed > anonymity > system the users will be, well, anonymous, and it should be impossible > to tell any more about them than that they pay their bills on time." > These examples illustrate the falsehood of this claim. Much more > is learned about the customers as they enter the anonymous system. But how do you know they've entered the anonymous system? If you are already being pursued by your antagonist, *and* you have been personally identified, then you have trouble you can't solve by any current software-based security technology. If you have not been personally identified, then your antagonist must either personally identify you or monitor all possible remailer network entrances. Monitoring all remailer network entrances can be done, but it is not for the weak of wallet. Even large governments do not have unlimited resources -- they must pick and choose their targets, rather than trying to go after everyone. The Soviet government and its puppet states encouraged people to turn each other in just so they didn't have to pay for 50% of the population to watch the other 50%. Large resources != infinite resources. =============================================== Mark Leighton Fisher fisherm at tce.com Thomson multimedia, Inc. Indianapolis IN The Illuminati are not dead -- they're just pining for the fnords... From fisherm at tce.com Wed Sep 5 11:21:03 2001 From: fisherm at tce.com (Fisher Mark) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 13:21:03 -0500 Subject: Moral Crypto Message-ID: > Killing remailers will be a by-product of regulating the net. Regulating the net to this extent would be a huge undertaking. Trying to regulate dead-tree publishers to this level would be a large undertaking, a task not likely to be accomplished without a lot of debate in Congress -- and there are many fewer dead-tree publishers than net publishers. The only way this could be done would be to attack at the large ISP level, which then brings up First Amendment issues along with common carrier issues. It could be done, but it would likely take a covert operation so large that: * It could only be funded by a government or other large body; and * Which would likely come to light relatively quickly ("three can keep a secret, if two are dead"). (Covert operation in the sense of staging many events that use the net in the process of harming people, as in using remailers for staging terrorist-like attacks for the express purpose of scaring the American public into abrogating their First Amendments rights unilaterally on the net.) =============================================== Mark Leighton Fisher fisherm at tce.com Thomson multimedia, Inc. Indianapolis IN The Illuminati are not dead -- they're just pining for the fnords... From pzakas at toucancapital.com Wed Sep 5 10:26:50 2001 From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip H. Zakas) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 13:26:50 -0400 Subject: Official Anonymizing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > A. Melon writes: > John Young takes a courageous stand: > > > I propose that all anonymizers adopt a code of practice that > > any sale to officials of anonymizers or their use be disclosed > > to the public (I suggested this to ZKS early on when first > > meetings with the feds to explain the technology were being > > sometimes disclosed). That seems to be a reasonable response > > to officially-secret prowling and investigating cyberspace. > > Absolutely appropriate, given cypherpunk goals. It may be difficult > to apply in every case but the intention is laudable. > > Here is an example of the principle put into practice, from the > anonymous web proxy service at http://proxy.magusnet.com/proxy.html: > > : If you are accessing this proxy from a *.mil or *.gov address > : it will not work. Given the amount of federal research conducted at the poles you might end up blocking santa claus (which would piss him and his gang of elves off.) It's impossible to determine the ultimate end-user. For example, what if a university performs secure computing research via a federal grant or directly for an agency? Are you going to block *.edu? What if an agency/contractor/employee/grantee uses comcast business internet access? Or speakeasy sdsl service? What about using a qwest cybercenter and peering with dozens of tier-one providers? are you going to block the ones that do business with the government? What about international carriers? Will you block Deutsche Telekom just because the german govt. uses DT? The world is too complex for simple rules such as the above regardless of the intent of the rules. phillip From stephanie.key at etransmail2.com Wed Sep 5 13:37:51 2001 From: stephanie.key at etransmail2.com (Stephanie Key) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 13:37:51 -0700 Subject: Product Give Away - Take 5 ! 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Designated trademarks and brands are the property of their respective owners. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 11472 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sfurlong at acmenet.net Wed Sep 5 10:43:39 2001 From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 13:43:39 -0400 Subject: Tim's Tips on Avoiding Prosecution Message-ID: <3B96644B.46CA8F5A@acmenet.net> Declan wrote: > ...I suspect that a "should be killed" line may be enough to garner > a conviction if you knew or should have known that folks would act on > what you say No, no, "he should be killed" is just shorthand for "he should be kill- filed". -- Steve Furlong Computer Condottiere Have GNU, Will Travel 617-670-3793 Don't sweat the petty things. But do pet the sweaty things. From jya at pipeline.com Wed Sep 5 13:55:00 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 13:55:00 -0700 Subject: Official Anonymizing In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010905100242.036c0750@pop3.norton.antivirus> References: Message-ID: <200109051802.OAA21707@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Let me jump in to say that I'm not advocating no access to anonymizers by officials only that that access be disclosed. It shouldn't be an embarrassment to reveal that federal agencies have bought such products. Disclosure as well of any features of the products sold to officials that are different from the standard product would be a big help in defending ourselves. Parity is all I'm asking for to combat the current disparity in features, as shit-marketers brag of their invasive products, "available only to law enforcement, letterhead needed." A pipe dream, maybe, but smart marketers have been known to respond to those as well as threats and sweetheart contracts. You ever see a DoD order for 40,000 copies of a program? That board of directors/Wall Street ecstacy is resistable only by cascading orders from the mass market. Here, I'm sympathetic to ZKS on how hard it is to compete with those who bear-hug government contracting officers as commanded by bankrollers everready to yank the plug. Nice story in the New York Times today about this, the second part of a three-parter on privacy issues of the Internet. To go with congressional hearings on it. From tcmay at got.net Wed Sep 5 14:09:11 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 14:09:11 -0700 Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: <3B96728C.27ED7437@lsil.com> Message-ID: <200109052112.f85LC7f07837@slack.lne.com> On Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 11:44 AM, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: > Well, I'm not totally retarded but I still don't always follow JYA that > well. I'll keep trying. > > Did the OH guy have a lawyer? If so, did he follow the advice he was > given? > > While I would not myself send the guy to prison for his writings however > goofy or sick I may find them, a person who writes this stuff runs a > serious risk of my interpreting even the slightest action on his part as > intent and of getting himself gutted in the spot. > > The thoughts color the interpretation of the actions. > > Mike > Sorry, Mike, but you're way too fixated on this "thought + actions" rut you've fallen into. The guy in Ohio was not busted because of some "intent" charge, but because the possession of those writings alone. Several articles a few months back... --Tim May From adam at homeport.org Wed Sep 5 11:10:38 2001 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 14:10:38 -0400 Subject: Official Anonymizing In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010905100242.036c0750@pop3.norton.antivirus> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20010905100242.036c0750@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <20010905141037.A13855@weathership.homeport.org> On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 10:12:25AM -0700, Greg Broiles wrote: | I don't think this question is as easy as it sounds at first. I do. Privacy is a good, and should be available to all. Adam -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From a3495 at cotse.com Wed Sep 5 11:37:21 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 14:37:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Official Anonymizing Message-ID: Greg wrote At 04:33 PM 9/4/2001 -0700, John Young wrote: >Look, I'll accept that we will all succumb to the power of the market, >so limit my proposal for full disclosure to those over 30. After that >age one should know there is no way to be truly open-minded. >And, in the spirit of full disclosure, I'll mention that at C2Net we did >sell our software to the government/intelligence agencies who wanted it - >they paid the same prices as any other customers, signed the same sales >contracts (we'd negotiate some on warranty terms for big purchases), and >otherwise got what everyone else got - not more, not less. Your honesty is admirable--and unlike certain other cases, I don't have any real reason to doubt what you say. But are you sure you have adequate security and counter-economic espionage measures in place? Have you had anyone do penetration testing lately? How much do you trust the people you work with? Wish I had a nickel for every time some young (or not-so-young)turk at a security conference or elsewhere started blabbing about things they shouldn't have out of nothing more than a desire to seem big and impress me. Feds and hackers alike, same old song and dance. I never even try to elicit information, either: I don't know, maybe it's some kind of sexist thing to assume a sweet-faced polite young woman could ever be a security threat. The sick thing is, if I were really evil I could have made a lot more than a nickel... Depressing. Wake up and shut up, dumbasses. Back to the insider problem: It's not exclusively a moral issue--whether you think you have more to fear from Uncle Sam, China, or the competitor down the street, everyone can agree that employees who sell out your technology to those out to compromise it are bad news. And frankly, the very people who wouldn't deal with China in a million years might be the ones most willing to listen to agents peddling the old "in the interests of national security" line. And whereas government agencies have always had a strong "culture of paranoia" that at least gets the issues on the table, private companies are at a disadvantage because they never even saw it coming. With a lot of young tech companies having spent the last few years feeling fat, happy, and oh-so-much smarter than those fusty old feds, you've got a potentially massive disaster in the making. Oh well, here's hoping you never get stung by the insider problem personally. ~Faustine. 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You should compare the number of meatspace publishers and their political clout to the number of anonymous remailer operators and their political clout. -Declan On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 01:21:03PM -0500, Fisher Mark wrote: > > Killing remailers will be a by-product of regulating the net. > > Regulating the net to this extent would be a huge undertaking. Trying to > regulate dead-tree publishers to this level would be a large undertaking, a > task not likely to be accomplished without a lot of debate in Congress -- > and there are many fewer dead-tree publishers than net publishers. > > The only way this could be done would be to attack at the large ISP level, > which then brings up First Amendment issues along with common carrier > issues. It could be done, but it would likely take a covert operation so > large that: > * It could only be funded by a government or other large body; and > * Which would likely come to light relatively quickly ("three can keep a > secret, if two are dead"). > > (Covert operation in the sense of staging many events that use the net in > the process of harming people, as in using remailers for staging > terrorist-like attacks for the express purpose of scaring the American > public into abrogating their First Amendments rights unilaterally on the > net.) > =============================================== > Mark Leighton Fisher fisherm at tce.com > Thomson multimedia, Inc. Indianapolis IN > The Illuminati are not dead -- > they're just pining for the fnords... From ravage at ssz.com Wed Sep 5 13:49:35 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 15:49:35 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Official Anonymizing In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010904145248.025a7030@mail.well.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > It seems to me that John is taking the first steps toward a general > argument: That police should not be allowed to do undercover work. His > argument, taken to its logical conclusion, would prevent police from > infiltrating criminal organizations in meatspace (let's assume, for the > moment, that we're talking about serious criminal acts against property and > person, not victimless crimes). See Japan. They have some interesting features built into their WWII constitution limiting some police behaviour. Such a view, perhaps to a less extreme degree, is not without precedence or merit. -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Sep 5 13:59:10 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 15:59:10 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Official Anonymizing In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010904171424.03746e60@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Greg Broiles wrote: > I think this goes a little too far (though I'm also pretty skeptical about > the underlying proposal). True, it's very unlikely that cops will arrest > themselves for violating a mandatory disclosure law - expecting any group > to reliably self-police is unrealistic. Speak for your self. The question isn't self-policing. The question is that one person is making decisions for another. Clearly less than optimal if you have any belief in 'free market' (which is a perfect example of self-policing behaviour; where does the stability come from?). Who'd know? Who'd care? No, the observation is that people are strange. Not some people, not those people, not weird people. People are strange. Any(!!!) time that one party is put in a position of authority over a second party, a third party must be included. That third party must be uninvolved with both parties and the market. That party must operate by socially accepted (eg voting) rules that apply to ALL members of the community equally. That third party MUST(!!!) report to the public at large. The public at large have a right to know how they can expect to be treated, and change it if it doesn't work to their satisfaction (which after all is the 'community' the law is supposed to be respecting in a democracy). Any society that violates this basic theme will be abusive. -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Sep 5 14:01:55 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 16:01:55 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Moral Crypto isn't wuss-ninnie. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Aimee Farr wrote: > It is not wuss-ninnie to spark debate, or to examine characterizations and > motives. Many say, "technology is neutral." It's not. Technology is > CONTEXTUAL. Ah, another convert. See, "The message is the medium" isn't right after all...it takes message, medium, context. I hope Marshall's spinnin' in his grave ;) -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Sep 5 14:17:34 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 16:17:34 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: <200109042301.XAA20853@hey.fuh-q.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Eric Cordian wrote: > Not unsurprisingly, the judge has refused to permit a man sentenced to 10 > years in prison for textual depictions of child sex in a private journal > to withdraw his guilty plea and get a trial. > > As F. Lee Bailey once said, the major flaw in the American justice system > is that appeals focus only on procedural errors, and ones guilt or > innocence is never again an issue after the original trial, even if that > trial reached the wrong result. I hear the flapping of angels wings... Only the jury can decide what is right/wrong. Only 'the poeple' have that right in this country under the Constitution. All criminal proceedings should be jury trials. Period, no exceptions. The moral obligations outweigh the increased cost of operations (lack of moral recognition is another lack of C-A-C-L theory). Once the jury decides then it should be final. Note the first sentence in Amendment 7...'preserved'... Amendment V No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation. Amendment VI In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence. Amendment VII In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law. -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From a3495 at cotse.com Wed Sep 5 13:19:10 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 16:19:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Official Anonymizing Message-ID: Some poor simple soul behind a remailer wrote: >Here is an example of the principle put into practice, from the >anonymous web proxy service at http://proxy.magusnet.com/proxy.html: : If you are accessing this proxy from a *.mil or *.gov address : it will not work. As a taxpaying United States Citizen[TM], : Business Owner, and Desert Storm Veteran, I do not want my : tax dollars being used by agencies I pay for to gawk(1) : at WWW pages and hide your origination point at my expense. : Now, get back to work! Patronizing claptrap, you wouldn't be blocking a thing. For example, the Google Archives has dozens of listings of a NSA researcher who openly participates in technical conferences, giving his full Ft. Meade address, office phone number--and AOL e-mail address. Before you dismiss this as just something another dumb fed might do, you might find it relevant that he's done a lot of work in IDS, GII security, reliable distributed systems, and deception. Who would ever expect anything interesting from an AOL user? That's precisely the point. That ought to be enough keywords: go dig for it yourself, and if you're really lucky, you'll find PDFs of his papers and start learning a little bit about why you haven't quite got the feds as outsmarted as you think you do. ~Faustine. From ravage at ssz.com Wed Sep 5 14:39:45 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 16:39:45 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Moral Crypto In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Sep 2001, Fisher Mark wrote: > But how do you know they've entered the anonymous system? If you are > already being pursued by your antagonist, *and* you have been personally > identified, then you have trouble you can't solve by any current > software-based security technology. Bingo! The primary(!) distinction of current technology is to increase revelation effort. To find... If they're already on to you then it's too damn late to be hiding. You should either give up or run like hell. -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ericm at lne.com Wed Sep 5 17:08:03 2001 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 17:08:03 -0700 Subject: Melon traffickers --> Soul traffickers In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010905170840.02039d70@mail.well.com>; from declan@well.com on Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 05:26:43PM -0400 References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010904191520.02172770@mail.well.com> <200109050020.f850KUf01686@slack.lne.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20010905170840.02039d70@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <20010905170803.A8479@slack.lne.com> On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 05:26:43PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: > [I'm not saying I believe these arguments, of course.] > > At 05:17 PM 9/4/01 -0700, Tim May wrote: > >And let me play Devil's Advocate to this DA position: > > > >Not to sound overly Choatian, but there is nothing in the First Amendment > >which says anything about government getting to decide when "enough" > >editorial processing has occurred so that First Amendment protections kick in. > > > >A publisher who published a publication consisting of _all submissions_ > >would still be protected, even if he exercised _zero_ editorial > >discretion. In fact, such things exist: they are called "vanity presses." > >They publish for a fee, no differently than a paid remailer publishes for > >a fee. > > The flaw in your analogy is that there is human selection involved in even > a vanity press. The publisher will weigh, among other factors, whether the > work is libelous, whether it contains any trade secrets or other > potentially illegal items that could get him in trouble, whether the work > is too controversial ("The Misunderstood Hitler") to publish, whether the > writer will pay on time, consult with the writer over fonts, cover art, and > so on. > > Since a remailer, on the other hand does not exercise any independent > editorial judgment about the content of the work, the burden should > properly be on you to argue that a law restricting it is unconstitutional. This was discussed long ago on cypherpunks, in fact the cyphernomicon says: 8.9.7. Possible legal steps to limit the use of remailers and anonymous systems - hold the remailer liable for content, i.e., no common carrier status - insert provisions into the various "anti-hacking" laws to criminalize anonymous posts (all of 8.9 is worth re-reading for this discussion). Tim, do you really mean to say that you now think that a remailer is a publisher, not a common carrier? Maybe I lost track in all the devil's advocate indirection... I think that being a publisher, while it gives many rights, is not nearly as good as being a common carrier. My understanding of "common carrrier" in this context is that the common carrier is not held responsible at all for the traffic that it carries. It can lose its common carrier status by editing-- then it's acting like a publisher, and is responsible for the material that it edits and publishes... "Prodigy was found liable for defamation as a publisher of a defamatory statement that had been posted on its bulletin board by an unknown user. The basis of Prodigy's liability was that it was using software to monitor and delete "offensive" messages and those in "bad taste." " (http://www.radiation.com/ideas/liability/) (follow the links inthat article to find that teh CDA gives some safe harbor for "provider or user of an interactive computer service" for editing content to get rid of obscene, etc. material.) I'm not up on the current state of this. Is it no longer possible to consider a remailer (or an ISP or BBS) a common carrier and thus "publisher" is the best to hope for? Or is it that "publisher", while carrying fewer rights, is much less likely to be held invalid? Eric From declan at well.com Wed Sep 5 14:26:43 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 17:26:43 -0400 Subject: Melon traffickers --> Soul traffickers In-Reply-To: <200109050020.f850KUf01686@slack.lne.com> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010904191520.02172770@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010905170840.02039d70@mail.well.com> [I'm not saying I believe these arguments, of course.] At 05:17 PM 9/4/01 -0700, Tim May wrote: >And let me play Devil's Advocate to this DA position: > >Not to sound overly Choatian, but there is nothing in the First Amendment >which says anything about government getting to decide when "enough" >editorial processing has occurred so that First Amendment protections kick in. > >A publisher who published a publication consisting of _all submissions_ >would still be protected, even if he exercised _zero_ editorial >discretion. In fact, such things exist: they are called "vanity presses." >They publish for a fee, no differently than a paid remailer publishes for >a fee. The flaw in your analogy is that there is human selection involved in even a vanity press. The publisher will weigh, among other factors, whether the work is libelous, whether it contains any trade secrets or other potentially illegal items that could get him in trouble, whether the work is too controversial ("The Misunderstood Hitler") to publish, whether the writer will pay on time, consult with the writer over fonts, cover art, and so on. Since a remailer, on the other hand does not exercise any independent editorial judgment about the content of the work, the burden should properly be on you to argue that a law restricting it is unconstitutional. A better analogy: Remailers are like a robotic Mailboxes Etc.-type service that opens a FedEx envelope and forwards the extracted contents to you at another address via FedEx. The robot arm, like a remailer, does not consider the content of the communication and acts like any other machine. Since this robot-mailer is by its very nature implicating interstate commerce and serves a compelling state interest of the highest order, the law is presumptively constitutional. >(By they way, publishers of anonymous letters are not required to "know >their customers." Ditto for collectors of anonymous suggestions, radio >talk show > hosts accepting calls from anonymous dialers, etc. These publishers and > radio talk show hosts do _not_ have to "justify" their failure to collect > taceability information, nor do they have to meet any threshold test for how But I know of no publisher who would publish a truly anonymous letter. Newspapers and magazine request truenames. If given someone's truename, a publisher may anonymize the letter, but a subpoena or other legal means should be able to extract the information after the fact. Also, publishers are legally liable for what they print, so they make content-based judgments about its quality -- again, unlike your remailer analogy. I'm not as familiar with the rules governing radio, but I suspect that radio hosts are liable for slander and so on if they keep a defamation-spewing guest on the line. Your argument proves too much: Do you really want remailers to be treated the same way -- and held liable for what people say through them? >If the government demands that remailer shut down, or somehow obtain >meatspace identities, confessionals and anonymous pschiatric/sex hotlines >will presumably also be shut down. To the contrary, a smart staffer can write legislation that only applies to remailers. I'll leave the details to my hypothetical legislative counsel, but identity-escrow-for-12-hour restrictions could apply only to "a computer hardware and/or software device that receives an electronic mail message sent through SMTP or a similar protocol, decodes the contents through its private key, and forwards the decoded contents to a recipient." Adjust as broadly or narrowly as you like. -Declan From tcmay at got.net Wed Sep 5 17:38:16 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 17:38:16 -0700 Subject: Melon traffickers --> Soul traffickers In-Reply-To: <20010905170803.A8479@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: <200109060041.f860fcf08858@slack.lne.com> On Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 05:08 PM, Eric Murray wrote: > > This was discussed long ago on cypherpunks, in fact the cyphernomicon > says: > > 8.9.7. Possible legal steps to limit the use of remailers and > anonymous systems > - hold the remailer liable for content, i.e., no common > carrier status > - insert provisions into the various "anti-hacking" laws to > criminalize anonymous posts > > (all of 8.9 is worth re-reading for this discussion). > Thanks. I try not to quote my own ancient writings, but it's clear that a lot of the posters of the past couple of years are not familiar with the older writings (which is sort of excusable...) and have not thought deeply about the issues (which is not). > Tim, do you really mean to say that you now think that a remailer > is a publisher, not a common carrier? Maybe I lost track in all > the devil's advocate indirection... I take no position one way or another. But "common carrier" status is not something that is automatically achieved. The telephone companies got it, to prevent phone companies from being shut down or from listening in on conversations. I'm not an expert in the history of "common carrier" legislation. (It may be described in Ithiel de sola Pool's seminal history of the telephone and liberty, though.) My point was the claim some are making that government may "license all remailers" seems unlikely. I often talk about "re-commenters" (hyphen added to emphasize the "commenter" part). If I get mail, or letters, or e-mail, and then pass it along to my friends or others, WHERE IN THE FIRST does it say I need permission from government? Imagine someone sent to prison for the crime of passing along messages he received. > I think that being a publisher, while it gives many rights, is not > nearly > as good as being a common carrier. My understanding of "common > carrrier" > in this context is that the common carrier is not held responsible > at all for the traffic that it carries. It can lose its common > carrier status by editing-- then it's acting like a publisher, and > is responsible for the material that it edits and publishes... There may be an item in the Cyphernomicon about this misconception, that common carrier status is something people apply for. It used to be claimed by some (don't here it as much anymore) than even bookstores could be treated as common carriers "so long as they didn't screen the books they sold." > (follow the links inthat article to find that teh CDA gives some > safe harbor for "provider or user of an interactive computer > service" for editing content to get rid of obscene, etc. material.) The CDA did indeed give safe harbor...but what the CDA giveth, CDA II or the Children's Protection Act can taketh away. > > > I'm not up on the current state of this. > Is it no longer possible to consider a remailer (or an ISP or > BBS) a common carrier and thus "publisher" is the best to hope for? > Or is it that "publisher", while carrying fewer rights, is much > less likely to be held invalid? No significant precedents in this area that I have ever heard of. --Tim May From jennifer at ESCRIPTIONS.ROI1.NET Wed Sep 5 14:58:38 2001 From: jennifer at ESCRIPTIONS.ROI1.NET (Jennifer Lyons) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 17:58:38 -0400 Subject: Get your free credit card! Message-ID: <200109052159.f85Lx5B28841@ak47.algebra.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1799 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jennifer at ESCRIPTIONS.ROI1.NET Wed Sep 5 14:58:38 2001 From: jennifer at ESCRIPTIONS.ROI1.NET (Jennifer Lyons) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 17:58:38 -0400 Subject: Get your free credit card! Message-ID: <200109052206.PAA18646@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1799 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nobody at dizum.com Wed Sep 5 09:00:38 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 18:00:38 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change Message-ID: <80b06661b7b71fb443ebb8c73a1c1028@dizum.com> J.A. Terranson writes: > This is the case I had in mind when I made my recent assertion that > thought==action in today's "court". How can anyone see this case, and not > conclude otherwise? This dude is going to spend a long time in stir, for > a *pure Thought Crime*. Gee, maybe he shouldn't have pleaded GUILTY then. How can you say that this proves that thought==action when the issue wasn't decided at trial? > On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Eric Cordian wrote: > > > Not unsurprisingly, the judge has refused to permit a man sentenced to 10 > > years in prison for textual depictions of child sex in a private journal > > to withdraw his guilty plea and get a trial. From juicy at melontraffickers.com Wed Sep 5 18:06:29 2001 From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 18:06:29 -0700 Subject: Melon traffickers --> Soul traffickers Message-ID: <1a4b12e37e6b8628b0debd940979945c@melontraffickers.com> Tim May writes: > I often talk about "re-commenters" (hyphen added to emphasize the > "commenter" part). If I get mail, or letters, or e-mail, and then pass > it along to my friends or others, WHERE IN THE FIRST does it say I need > permission from government? You're absolutely right, no law could stop you from being a re-commenter. However, you would be liable for everything you said. This would mean that you pay the penalty for any illegal message, any obscenity, any violation of copyright. In short being a re-commenter buys you absolutely nothing. Any message so innocuous that it could be delivered by a re-commenter (like this one, for example) does not really need anonymity. From abhi at golhar.inbox.as Wed Sep 5 19:07:29 2001 From: abhi at golhar.inbox.as (Hello...Superb) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 19:07:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hello...superb Message-ID: <419.437139.93981771abhi@golhar.inbox.as> Dear Friend, As a technical person and a natural skeptic my initial impulse was to treat the following message as one more piece of overblown, overhyped bulk mail whose fate is to be rapidly dispatched to the infinite void. Something however made me read on and then print out a copy of this message. I urge you to find 5 minutes to review it. If you don't have time, print it out and review it later! You won't be sorry. A major nightly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of the program described below to see if it can really make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved that there are absolutely no laws prohibiting the participation in the program. This has helped to show people that this is a simple, harmless and fun way to make some extra money at home. The results have been truly remark- able. So many people are participating that those involved are doing much better than ever before. Since everyone makes more as more people try it out, it's been very exciting. You will understand once you try it yourself! If you would like to make at least $50,000 in less than 90 days! Please read this program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!! THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY!! It does NOT require you to come into contact with people or make or take any telephone calls. Just follow the instructions, and you will make money. This simplified e-mail marketing program works perfectly 100% EVERY TIME! E-mail is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of this virtually free method of advertising NOW!!! The longer you wait, the more people will be doing business using email. Get your piece of this action!!! ~~~~~ HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU THOUSANDS OF DOLLAR$$$$!!!! This method of raising capital REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME. I am sure that you could use up to $50,000 or more in the next 90 days. Before you say, "BULL... " please read this program carefully. This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making business. As with all multi-level businesses, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products. Every state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-level business partners, and we sell and deliver a product for EVERY dollar received. YOUR ORDERS COME BY MAIL AND ARE FILLED BY E- MAIL, so you are not involved in personal selling. You do it privately in your own home, store or office. This is the EASIEST marketing plan anywhere! It is simply order filling by email! *************************************************************** The product is informational and instructional material containing the secrets on how to open the doors to the magic world of E-COMMERCE , the information highway, the wave of the future! PLAN SUMMARY: (1) You order the 4 reports listed below ($5 each) which come to you by email. (2) Save a copy of this entire letter and put your name after Report #1 and move the other names down. (3) Access Yahoo.com or any of the other major search engines to locate hundreds of bulk email service companies (search for "bulk email") and have them send 1 million+ email addresses to you. Or advertise in a different way such as auctions or free ads. (4) Orders will come to you by postal mail - simply email them the report they ordered. Let me ask you - isn't this about as easy as it gets? *************************************************************** By the way there are over 50 MILLION email addresses with millions more joining the internet each year so don't worry about "running out" or "saturation". People are used to seeing and hearing the same advertisements every day on radio/TV. How many times have you received the same pizza flyers on your door? Then one day you are hungry for pizza and you order one. Same thing with this letter. I received this letter many times - then one day I decided it was time to try it. *************************************************************** YOU CAN START TODAY - JUST DO THESE EASY STEPS: STEP #1: ORDER THE FOUR REPORTS: Order the four reports shown on the list below (you can't sell them if you don't order them). -- For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, and YOUR NAME & RETURN ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to the person whose name appears on the list next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE IN CASE OF ANY MAIL PROBLEMS! Within a few days you will receive, by e-mail, each of the four reports. Save them on your computer so you can send them to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. STEP #2: ADD YOUR MAILING ADDRESS TO THIS LETTER. a. Look below for the listing of the four reports. b. After you've ordered the four reports, delete the name and address under REPORT #4. This person has made it through the cycle. c. Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to REPORT #4. d. Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3. e. Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to REPORT #2. f. Insert your name/address in the REPORT #1 position. Please make sure you COPY ALL INFORMATION, every name and address, ACCURATELY! STEP #3: Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and save it to your computer. Make NO changes to these instructions. Now you are ready to use this entire email to send by email to prospects. Report #1 will tell you how to download bulk email software and email addresses so you can send it out to thousands of people while you sleep! Remember that 50,000+ new people are joining the Internet every month. Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can afford $20 and initial bulk mailing cost). You obviously already have a computer and an Internet connection and e-mail is FREE! There are two primary methods of building your down- line: METHOD #1: SENDING BULK E-MAIL Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we'll assume you and all those involved email out only 2,000 programs each. Let's also assume that the mailing receives a 0.5% response. The response could be much better. Also, many people will email out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000 (Why stop at 2000?). But continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs. With a 0.5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1. Those 10 people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000. Out of those 0.5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2. Those 100 mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000. The 0.5% response to that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3. Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each for a 2,000,000 total. The 0.5% response to that is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4. That's 10,000 $5 bills for you. CASH!!! Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5,000 + $50,000 for a total of $55,550!!! REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF THE 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE, OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF 2,000. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! METHOD #2 - PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET Advertising on the Internet is very, very inexpensive, and there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise. Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it works. Assume your goal is to get ONLY 10 people to participate on your first level. (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the Internet will EASILY get a larger response.) Also assume that everyone else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 down- line members. Look how this small number accumulates to achieve the STAGGERING results below: 1st level-- your first 10 send you $5................................$50 2nd level--10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100)...$500 3rd level--10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000) ........$5,000 4th level--10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10,000) ..$50,000 $$$$$$ THIS TOTALS ----------$55,550 $$$$$$ AMAZING ISN'T IT? Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only recruit 10 people each. Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20 people to participate! Most people get 100's of participants and many will continue to work this program, sending out programs WITH YOUR NAME ON THEM for years! THINK ABOUT IT! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ People are going to get emails about this plan from you or somebody else and many will work this plan - the question is - Don't you want your name to be on the emails they will send out? * * * DON'T MISS OUT!!! * * * JUST TRY IT ONCE!!! * * *** SEE WHAT HAPPENS!!! *** ** YOU'LL BE AMAZED!!! ** ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS! This will guarantee that the e-mail THEY send out with YOUR name and address on it will be prompt because they can't advertise until they receive the report! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ GET STARTED TODAY: Place your order for the four reports now. ****Notes: -- ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH (U.S. CURRENCY) FOR EACH REPORT. CHECKS NOT ACCEPTED. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in two sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper write: (a) the number & name of the report you are ordering, (b) your e-mail address, and (c) your name & postal address. ***** REPORT #1 "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #1 FROM: A.D. Golhar 7600 Thrasher Ln. Kalamazoo, MI 49009 *****REPORT #2 "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk E- mail on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #2 FROM: Melissa Collier Rt. 4. Box 820, Jefferson, TX 75657 *****REPORT #3 "The Secrets to Multilevel Marketing on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #3 FROM: JOHN G. P.O. BOX 1161 WINONA, MN 55987-716 *****REPORT #4 "How to become a Millionaire Utilizing the Power of Multilevel Marketing and the Internet" ORDER REPORT #4 FROM: ENID U. P.O. BOX 353 FOUNTAIN CITY, WI 54629-0353 ******* TIPS FOR SUCCESS ******* TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS! Be prompt, professional, and follow the directions accurately. -- Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when the orders start coming in because: When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested product/report. It is required for this to be a legal business and they need the reports to send out their letters (with your name on them!) -- ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE. -- Be patient and persistent with this program - If you follow the instructions exactly - results WILL follow. $$$$ ******* YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES ******* Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: If you don't receive 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT#2. If you don't, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a DIFFERENT report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. To generate more income, simply send another batch of e-mails or continue placing ads and start the whole process again! There is no limit to the income you will generate from this business! Before you make your decision as to whether or not you participate in this program. Please answer one question. ARE YOU HAPPY WITH YOUR PRESENT INCOME OR JOB? If the answer is no, then please look at the following facts about this super simple MLM program: 1. NO face to face selling, NO meetings, NO inventory! NO Telephone calls, NO big cost to start! Nothing to learn, NO skills needed! (Surely you know how to send e- mail?) 2. No equipment to buy - you already have a computer and Internet connection - so you have everything you need to fill orders! 3. You are selling a product that does NOT COST ANYTHING TO PRODUCE OR SHIP! (E-mailing copies of the reports is FREE!) 4. All of your customers pay you in CA$H! This program will change your LIFE FOREVER!! Look at the potential for you to be able to quit your job and live a life of luxury you could only dream about! Imagine getting out of debt and buying the car and home of your dreams and being able to work a super- high paying leisurely easy business from home! $$ FINALLY MAKE SOME DREAMS COME TRUE! $$ ACT NOW! Take your first step toward achieving financial independence. Order the reports and follow the program outlined above- - SUCCESS will be your reward. Thank you for your time and consideration. *****PLEASE NOTE: If you need help with starting a business, registering a business name, learning how income tax is handled, etc., contact your local office of the Small Business Administration (a Federal Agency) 1-800-827-5722 for free help and answers to questions. Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via telephone and free seminars about business tax requirements. Your earnings are highly dependent on your activities and advertising. The information contained on this site and in the report constitutes no guarantees neither stated nor implied. In the event that it is determined that this site or report constitutes a guarantee of any kind, that guarantee is now void. The earnings amounts listed on this site and in the report are estimates only. If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection in Washington, DC. ============================================= Under Bill s.1618 TITLE III passed by the 105th US Congress this letter cannot be considered spam as long as the sender includes contact information and a method of removal. This is a one time e-mail transmission. No request for removal is *necessary*. Testimony:$$$$$Hello - My name is Johnathon Rourke; In mid December, I received this program in my e- mail. Six months prior to receiving this program I had been sending away for information on various business opportunities. All of the programs I received, in my opinion, were not cost effective. They were either too difficult for me to comprehend, or the initial investment was too much for me to risk to see if they would work. But as I was saying, in December I received this program. I didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing list. THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!! After reading it several times, to make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes! Here was a MONEY MAKING MACHINE!! I could start immediately without any debt. Like most of you I was still a little skeptical and a little worried about the legal aspects of it all. So I checked it out with the U.S. Post Office (1-800- 725-2161, 24-hrs.) and they confirmed that it is indeed legal! After determining that the program was LEGAL, I decided "WHY NOT?!?!" Initially I sent out 10,000 e-mails. It cost me about $15 for my time on-line. The great thing about e-mail is that I don't need any for printing to send out the program, and because I also send the product (reports) by e- mail, my only expense is my time. In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1. By January 13, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1. Your goal is to "RECEIVE at least 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN 2 WEEKS. IF YOU DON'T, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. My first step in making $50,000 in 90 days was done. By January 30, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2. Your goal is to "RECEIVE AT LEAST 100+ ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN 2 WEEKS. IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL." Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2. 96 more than I needed. So I sat back and relaxed. By March 1, of my e-mailing of 10,000, I received $58,000 with more coming in every day. I paid off ALL my debts and bought a much-needed new car! Please take your time to read this plan, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER$!!! Remember, it won't work if you don't try it. This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY, especially the rules of not trying to place your name in a different place. It won't work and you'll lose out on a lot of money! In order for this program to work, you must meet your goal of 20+ orders for REPORT #1, and 100+ orders for REPORT #2 and you will make $50,000 or more in 90 days. I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS!!! If you choose not to participate in this program, I am sorry. It really is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you. If you choose to participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to financial security. If you are a fellow business owner and are in financial trouble like I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a sign. I DID! $$ Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report to everyone you can think of. One of the people you send this to may send out 50,000... and your name will be on every one of them! Remember though, the more you send out, the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially independent. Sincerely, Johnathon Rourke Rhode Island $$$$$Before you delete this program from your in-box, as I almost did, take a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil and figure out what could happen when YOU participate. Figure out the worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will still make a lot of money! You will definitely get back what you invested. Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in. $$$ IT WORKS!!! $$$ Jody Jacobs Richmond, VA $$$$$Bid now or send $5.00 for report #1 as well as the other reports. Copy and paste this entire letter for your further use. From georgemw at speakeasy.net Wed Sep 5 19:11:45 2001 From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 19:11:45 -0700 Subject: Melon traffickers --> Soul traffickers In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010905170840.02039d70@mail.well.com> References: <200109050020.f850KUf01686@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: <3B9678F1.12293.266DFD64@localhost> On 5 Sep 2001, at 17:26, Declan McCullagh wrote: > [I'm not saying I believe these arguments, of course.] > Since a remailer, on the other hand does not exercise any independent > editorial judgment about the content of the work, the burden should > properly be on you to argue that a law restricting it is unconstitutional. > This is really crappy logic. Any law that restricts speech or the press is presumably unconstitutional. > A better analogy: Remailers are like a robotic Mailboxes Etc.-type service > that opens a FedEx envelope and forwards the extracted contents to you at > another address via FedEx. Actually it's a really crappy analogy. Arguing that "it's kind of like this hypothetical thing that doesn't exist and therefore ought to be treated as I imagine this hypothetical thing would probably be treated if it did exist" is an incredibly poor use of the device of analogy. > But I know of no publisher who would publish a truly anonymous letter. You're fucking kidding, right? Do you think "Ann Landers" and her ilk actually know the "true names" of all the morons who write in to her? > Newspapers and magazine request truenames. If given someone's truename, a > publisher may anonymize the letter, but a subpoena or other legal means > should be able to extract the information after the fact. That's funny, just a week or two ago you were saying any ethical person in the journalistic profession should be willing to go to jail rather than compromise the identity of his sources. Someone who writes in a ltter is precluded from being a "source"? George > > -Declan From wolf at priori.net Wed Sep 5 19:22:16 2001 From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 19:22:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Melon traffickers --> Soul traffickers Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Sep 2001, Tim May wrote: > There may be an item in the Cyphernomicon about this misconception, that > common carrier status is something people apply for. It used to be > claimed by some (don't here it as much anymore) than even bookstores > could be treated as common carriers "so long as they didn't screen the > books they sold." Interesting. So what does this mean for remailers that do screen content? At the very least, the mixmaster software comes with the ability for individuals to block themselves (or other people -- it's not authenticated) from receiving mail from the remailer. So, in effect, the remailer is screening mail for that recipient, and discarding it. (And there are, or have been, remailers that screen messages for "bad words." The messages are then dumped into a file for review.) How does this affect "common carrier" status? -MW- From wolf at priori.net Wed Sep 5 19:22:16 2001 From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 19:22:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Melon traffickers --> Soul traffickers Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Sep 2001, Tim May wrote: > There may be an item in the Cyphernomicon about this misconception, that > common carrier status is something people apply for. It used to be > claimed by some (don't here it as much anymore) than even bookstores > could be treated as common carriers "so long as they didn't screen the > books they sold." Interesting. So what does this mean for remailers that do screen content? At the very least, the mixmaster software comes with the ability for individuals to block themselves (or other people -- it's not authenticated) from receiving mail from the remailer. So, in effect, the remailer is screening mail for that recipient, and discarding it. (And there are, or have been, remailers that screen messages for "bad words." The messages are then dumped into a file for review.) How does this affect "common carrier" status? -MW- From gbroiles at well.com Wed Sep 5 19:22:42 2001 From: gbroiles at well.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 19:22:42 -0700 Subject: Common carriers In-Reply-To: <20010905170803.A8479@slack.lne.com> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010905170840.02039d70@mail.well.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20010904191520.02172770@mail.well.com> <200109050020.f850KUf01686@slack.lne.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20010905170840.02039d70@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010905185623.0372bec0@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 05:08 PM 9/5/2001 -0700, Eric Murray wrote: >Is it no longer possible to consider a remailer (or an ISP or >BBS) a common carrier and thus "publisher" is the best to hope for? >Or is it that "publisher", while carrying fewer rights, is much >less likely to be held invalid? The "common carrier" argument never went anywhere - it was a reasonable early effort to discuss the liability rules which might be appropriate for online services; but that's not the way that the law has developed, and it's no longer considered a reasonable line of thinking. Even traditional common carriers (like phone companies) aren't likely to fit the definition of "common carrier" when they're operating as ISP's or other online service providers - e.g., pacbell.com, the company which provides local phone service as an SBC subsidiary, is still a common carrier for many purposes - but pacbell.net, the company which provides DSL connectivity, Usenet news, email, and web hosting for residential and business customers, is *not* a common carrier as that term has traditionally been used. That arm of the business is likely considered an "enhanced service provider", in FCC and PUC-speak, and doesn't get the benefit (or the burden) of traditional common carrier rules. (Don't forget, common carriers usually have to publish rate schedules, stick to published rates for all subscribers, seek regulatory permission to change their rates, participate in administrative proceedings concerning their rates charged to customers and rates of return on capital, etc - it is absolutely not some magic badge of publisher freedom which one can assume and then wield as a shield against any form of regulation. It's more like a deal with the regulatory devil, whereby one gains some short-term exemptions in exchange for eternal obesiance to a byzantine regulatory apparatus with no hope of salvation.) Even "publisher" is relatively outdated - the relevant definitions and liability rules are found in the Communications Decency Act (it wasn't all struck down; see 47 USC 230) and the Digital Millenium Copyright Act (17 USC 512), if you're talking about liability for online service providers. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at well.com "We have found and closed the thing you watch us with." -- New Delhi street kids From ravage at ssz.com Wed Sep 5 17:23:30 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 19:23:30 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Remailers as Common Carriers Message-ID: Unfortunately this isn't the answer either. Common Carrier status brings with it a whole host of regulatory issues. A far stronger position is to stand on the 1st as a 'speech' and 'press' issue. That one you can win without ending up with a monkey on your back. -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Sep 5 17:25:52 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 19:25:52 -0500 Subject: Definition: common carrier Message-ID: <3B96C290.74A84912@ssz.com> http://www.its.bldrdoc.gov/fs-1037/dir-008/_1101.htm -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Sep 5 17:28:00 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 19:28:00 -0500 Subject: Law: Free Legal Information - Common Carrier Message-ID: <3B96C310.E53113EF@ssz.com> http://www.freeadvice.com/law/502us.htm -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From tcmay at got.net Wed Sep 5 19:43:56 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 19:43:56 -0700 Subject: Melon traffickers --> Soul traffickers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200109060254.VAA18220@einstein.ssz.com> On Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 07:22 PM, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote: > On Wed, 5 Sep 2001, Tim May wrote: > >> There may be an item in the Cyphernomicon about this misconception, >> that >> common carrier status is something people apply for. It used to be >> claimed by some (don't here it as much anymore) than even bookstores >> could be treated as common carriers "so long as they didn't screen the >> books they sold." > > > Interesting. > > So what does this mean for remailers that do screen content? At the very > least, the mixmaster software comes with the ability for individuals to > block themselves (or other people -- it's not authenticated) from > receiving mail from the remailer. > > So, in effect, the remailer is screening mail for that recipient, and > discarding it. > > (And there are, or have been, remailers that screen messages for "bad > words." The messages are then dumped into a file for review.) > > How does this affect "common carrier" status? See Greg Broiles' summary for a more accurate summary than I could do. But not all is lost. I still believe the First is a bright line: the First does not provide for government regulation of those who are not using "the public airwaves" (cough cough). Newspapers don't need to seek licenses of any kind, for example. (A so-called "business license," not that I'm supporting such things, is basically just a fee to operate a money-making business in some location. There is no discretion for allowing some newspaper and disallowing others, nor for "regulating" newspapers.) Any proposal to license those who use the Net will face a lot of First Amendment challenges. I don't think the high court would ultimately find any such regulations constitutional. --Tim May From tcmay at got.net Wed Sep 5 19:51:44 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 19:51:44 -0700 Subject: Melon traffickers --> Soul traffickers In-Reply-To: <1a4b12e37e6b8628b0debd940979945c@melontraffickers.com> Message-ID: <200109060255.f862tRf09436@slack.lne.com> On Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 06:06 PM, A. Melon wrote: > Tim May writes: >> I often talk about "re-commenters" (hyphen added to emphasize the >> "commenter" part). If I get mail, or letters, or e-mail, and then pass >> it along to my friends or others, WHERE IN THE FIRST does it say I need >> permission from government? > > You're absolutely right, no law could stop you from being a > re-commenter. > However, you would be liable for everything you said. This would mean > that you pay the penalty for any illegal message, any obscenity, any > violation of copyright. > > In short being a re-commenter buys you absolutely nothing. Any message > so innocuous that it could be delivered by a re-commenter (like this > one, > for example) does not really need anonymity. > Including this one?: Hey, Nomen, I just got this message. Any idea what it means? pQuusuSljjFEVQYWgG/YM+3V2K3+9lptlWVBr3axwLr3iHqmcDQzGEnTASI/k2oy WSkeNUb2W2nNREAe0DhRMPJ5n44RTk+HOH6TLUtxCyez1UaAvtu7kdGUgk9/zSLZ V/HXFANMv23abUS/VCBFSTQz2nLZC/BDy5KhkndAL/ugL9/eqgiPr3mMrWCBPXoi GdG78lSIrFAzo0Gw5pzUOj3NJiew1a+Sjp2iJCuIJbXxhxeYZMqUNU9ZxEVLHtV5 fpljlUtrUE+AZfIwFZeW3RIYSuc5hgo8Rv/qzapU8NSlBkT0NH6riKV2dx66RvvJ z44/EQrBX5FmbET4/YQKRQXaxgN0+e9ZXXwQg7B8y/b1RW4J9aslTOl8Emc6uokz SqKlB8ACdu/I6LczYB2LBMr7bUsh0ty1oWUsv8vEouNhEYEbkBZL3vdvrw6dBg8e hzFExtj9HgMvkVIE9E91CD0= =EYfM From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Sep 5 19:28:05 2001 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 21:28:05 -0500 Subject: AutoResp. Req-232B-Flatrate Message-ID: <200109060228.f862S5N08635@badboy.mach10hosting.com> Below is the result of your feedback form. It was submitted by () on Wednesday, September 5, 2001 at 21:28:05 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- message: Introducing The Newest Flatrate LongDistance Plan Along With A System To Make $5800 Per Month Using Our Unique System. http://www.geocities.com/new_flatrate_deals If you have problems with the site, email flatratefrenzy at yahoo.com Include your name, phone number, and best time to call or you will not receive a response back. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jim_windle at eudoramail.com Wed Sep 5 19:12:20 2001 From: jim_windle at eudoramail.com (Jim Windle) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 22:12:20 -0400 Subject: Melon traffickers --> Soul traffickers Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Sep 2001 17:38:16 Tim May wrote: > >On Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 05:08 PM, Eric Murray wrote: >> >> Tim, do you really mean to say that you now think that a remailer >> is a publisher, not a common carrier? Maybe I lost track in all >> the devil's advocate indirection... > >I take no position one way or another. But "common carrier" status is >not something that is automatically achieved. The telephone companies >got it, to prevent phone companies from being shut down or from >listening in on conversations. I'm not an expert in the history of >"common carrier" legislation. (It may be described in Ithiel de sola >Pool's seminal history of the telephone and liberty, though.) > I think "common carrier" status was orignally conceived to allow access by all to an asset which is a "natural monopoly". Thus the owner of the monopoly, in return for having it sanctioned by the government,is required to do business with all. He is not held liable for certain results because he is required to forego normal business judgement about with whom to do business. As remailers are not in any sense a "natural mononoply" the common carrier rational for not holding the remailer liable for the results of doing business with particular parties would not apply. Nor for that matter would the monopoly grounds for the government regulation of remailers exist. Though I supppose the government has expanded the concept of common carrier to expand its regulatory grasp I don't think it could be expanded so far as to include remailers, but I don't know current case law on this question. >My point was the claim some are making that government may "license all >remailers" seems unlikely. > Agreed, its hard to imagine a grounds for government regulation here that doesn't infringe on the first amendment. Of course when it comes to defining concepts from economics and law I defer to Faustine and Aimee. Unfortunately they seem, like cops, to never be around when you need them. Jim Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com From bill.stewart at pobox.com Wed Sep 5 22:28:03 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 22:28:03 -0700 Subject: Melon traffickers --> Soul traffickers In-Reply-To: <200109060255.f862tRf09436@slack.lne.com> References: <1a4b12e37e6b8628b0debd940979945c@melontraffickers.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010905222225.02f77aa0@idiom.com> I was shocked, *shocked* to receive the following disturbing message in my email! I've removed the headers because *surely* they must be from some forger trolling for hate mail directed by the outraged public to some innocent member of our community, for surely Nobody would put their own name on this kind of material. O, tempora! O, mores! ~~Request-Remailing-To: cypherpunks at lne.com > >> I often talk about "re-commenters" (hyphen added to emphasize the > >> "commenter" part). If I get mail, or letters, or e-mail, and then pass > >> it along to my friends or others, WHERE IN THE FIRST does it say I need > >> permission from government? > > > > You're absolutely right, no law could stop you from being a > > re-commenter. > > However, you would be liable for everything you said. This would mean > > that you pay the penalty for any illegal message, any obscenity, any > > violation of copyright. > > > > In short being a re-commenter buys you absolutely nothing. Any message > > so innocuous that it could be delivered by a re-commenter (like this > > one, > > for example) does not really need anonymity. > > > >Including this one?: > >Hey, Nomen, I just got this message. Any idea what it means? > >pQuusuSljjFEVQYWgG/YM+3V2K3+9lptlWVBr3axwLr3iHqmcDQzGEnTASI/k2oy >WSkeNUb2W2nNREAe0DhRMPJ5n44RTk+HOH6TLUtxCyez1UaAvtu7kdGUgk9/zSLZ >V/HXFANMv23abUS/VCBFSTQz2nLZC/BDy5KhkndAL/ugL9/eqgiPr3mMrWCBPXoi >GdG78lSIrFAzo0Gw5pzUOj3NJiew1a+Sjp2iJCuIJbXxhxeYZMqUNU9ZxEVLHtV5 >fpljlUtrUE+AZfIwFZeW3RIYSuc5hgo8Rv/qzapU8NSlBkT0NH6riKV2dx66RvvJ >z44/EQrBX5FmbET4/YQKRQXaxgN0+e9ZXXwQg7B8y/b1RW4J9aslTOl8Emc6uokz >SqKlB8ACdu/I6LczYB2LBMr7bUsh0ty1oWUsv8vEouNhEYEbkBZL3vdvrw6dBg8e >hzFExtj9HgMvkVIE9E91CD0= >=EYfM From hibbert at netcom.com Wed Sep 5 23:21:33 2001 From: hibbert at netcom.com (Chris Hibbert) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 23:21:33 -0700 Subject: LFS Press release: Prometheus Awards Message-ID: For immediate release: September, 2001 * Libertarian Futurist Society announced Prometheus Award winners Sept. 2 at the Philadelphia Worldcon * L. Neil Smith won Best Novel for "Forge of the Elders" At its annual Worldcon award ceremony Sept. 2 in Philadelphia, the Libertarian Futurist Society presented its annual Prometheus Award for Best Novel to L. Neil Smith's "Forge of the Elders" (Baen Books). The Prometheus Awards ceremony preceded a panel discussion on "Beyond Ayn Rand and Robert Heinlein: Libertarian SF." The panel was held from 4 to 5 p.m. Sunday Sept. 2 at the Pennsylvania Convention Center and Philadelphia Marriott in Philadelphia. L. Neil Smith has won the Prometheus Award twice before: in 1984 for The Probability Broach, and in 1994 for Pallas. Forge of the Elders combines two previously published novels with the story's finale, finally published a decade later. The story concerns the culture clash between the human members of an expedition to asteroid 5023 Eris, and the multitude of aliens they find when they arrive. The twist is that the aliens are anarchist individualists with a sophisticated culture, while the humans were sent by a monolithic socialist/communist world government. The culture clash results in a few mysterious deaths, and the investigation of the possible murders reveals much about the motivations of the perpetrators and suspects. The other finalists in the voting for the 2001 Prometheus Award were: * Lodestar, by Michael Flynn (TOR Books) * The Sky Road, by Ken MacLeod (TOR Books) * The Truth, by Terry Pratchett (HarperCollins) * Eagle Against the Stars, by Steve White (Baen Books) Twelve novels were nominated by LFS members for this year's awards. The other nominees were Candle, by John Barnes (TOR Books); The Legend That Was Earth, by James Hogan (Baen Books); Outlaw School, by Rebecca Ore (HarperCollins/EOS); Chimera, by Will Shetterly (TOR Books); Vampire Nation, by Thomas Sipos (www.communistvampires.com); Conspiracies, by F. Paul Wilson (Forge Books); and All the Rage, by F. Paul Wilson (FORGE Books) The 2001 winner of the Hall of Fame award for Best Classic Fiction was "The Survival of Freedom", an sf anthology edited by Jerry Pournelle and John Carr. Pournelle shared the prometheus award in 1992 with Larry Niven for Fallen Angels. The LFS' first Special Prometheus Award for Lifetime Achievement went to Poul Anderson. Both of these awards were presented at LFScon, the Libertarian Futurist Society's first national conference and 20th anniversary celebration, held May 25-27 in conjunction with Marcon 36 in Columbus, Ohio. The audience of more than 1,000 people were treated to the Awards ceremony as part of the Masquerade festivities. Karen Anderson, Poul's wife and a guest of honor, accepted for Anderson, whose illness had prevented him from attending LFScon as Marcon's Grand Master guest of honor. Anderson, widely respected as a Grand Master of S.F., already had been recognized by the LFS three times over the past two decades, having won the Prometheus Hall of Fame twice for "The Star Fox" and "Trader to the Stars" and the Best Novel award for "The Stars Are Also Fire" (1995). Poul Anderson passed away July 31, 2001 at the age of 74. The Prometheus awards for Best Novel, Best Classic Fiction (Hall of Fame) and (occasional) Special awards honor outstanding science fiction/fantasy that explores the possibilities of a free future, champions human rights (including personal and economic liberty), dramatizes the perennial conflict between individuals and coercive governments, or critiques the tragic consequences of abuse of power-- especially by the State. The Prometheus Award, sponsored by the Libertarian Futurist Society (LFS), was established in 1979, making it one of the most enduring awards after the Nebula and Hugo awards, and one of the oldest fan-based awards currently in sf. Presented annually since 1982 at the World Science Fiction Convention, the Prometheus Awards include a gold coin and plaque for the winners. The Hall of Fame, established in 1983, focuses on older classic fiction, including novels, novellas, short stories, poems and plays. Past Hall of Fame award winners range from Robert Heinlein and Ayn Rand to Ray Bradbury and Ursula LeGuin. Publishers who wish to submit 2002 novels for consideration should contact Michael Grossberg (614-236-5040, mikegrossb at aol.com, 3164 Plymouth Place, Columbus OH 43213), Chair of the LFS Prometheus Awards Best Novel Finalist judging committee. Prometheus Award and Hall of Fame winners Founded in 1982, the Libertarian Futurist Society sponsors the annual Prometheus Award and Prometheus Hall of Fame; publishes reviews, news and columns in the quarterly "Prometheus"; arranges annual awards ceremonies at the Worldcon, debates libertarian futurist issues (such as private space exploration); and provides fun and fellowship for libertarian-SF fans. Here are the past winners of LFS Awards Prometheus Award winners Wheels Within Wheels, by F. Paul Wilson (1979) The Probability Broach, by L. Neil Smith (1982) Voyage From Yesteryear, by James Hogan (1983) The Rainbow Cadenza, by J. Neil Schulman (1984) Cybernetic Samurai, by Victor Milan (1986) Marooned in Real Time, by Vernor Vinge (1987) The Jehovah Contract, by Victor Koman (1988) Moon of Ice, by Brad Linaweaver (1989) Solomon's Knife, by Victor Koman (1990 In the Country of the Blind, by Michael Flynn (1991) Fallen Angels, by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle (1992) The Multiplex Man, by James Hogan (1993) Pallas, by L. Neil Smith (1994) The Stars Are Also Fire, by Poul Anderson (1995) The Star Fraction, by Ken MacLeod (1996) Kings of the High Frontier, by Victor Koman (1997) The Stone Canal, by Ken MacLeod (1998) The Golden Globe, by John Varley (Berkley/Ace) (1999) A Deepness in the Sky, by Vernor Vinge (TOR Books) (2000) The Forge of the Elders, by L. Neil Smith (Baen Books) (2001) * None of the Above won in 1985, and no awards were given in 1980 and 1981. Prometheus Hall of Fame winners Robert Heinlein's The Moon is a Harsh Mistress (1983) Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged (1983) George Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four (1984) Ray Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451 (1984) Poul Anderson's Trader to the Stars (1985) Eric Frank Russell's The Great Explosion (1985) C.M. Kornbluth's The Syndic, (1986) Robert Shea and Robert Anton Wilson's Illuminatus trilogy. (1986) Robert Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land (1987) Ayn Rand's Anthem (1987) Alfred Bester's The Stars My Destination (1988) J. Neil Schulman's Alongside Night (1989) F. Paul Wilson's Healer (1990) F. Paul Wilson's An Enemy of the State (1991) Ira Levin's This Perfect Day (1992) Ursula LeGuin's The Dispossessed (1993) Yevgeni Zamiatin's We (1994) Poul Anderson's The Star Fox (1995) Robert Heinlein's The Red Planet (1996) Robert Heinlein's Methuselah's Children (1997) Robert Heinlein's Time Enough for Love (1998) H. Beam Piper and John McGuire's A Planet for Texans (Also published as "Lone Star Planet") (1999) Hans Christian Andersen's The Emperor's New Clothes (2000) The Survival of Freedom, edited by Jerry Pournelle and John F. Carr (2001) SPECIAL AWARDS 1998: "Free Space," edited by Brad Linaweaver and Ed Kramer 2001: Poul Anderson, for lifetime achievement ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************** From timjeffers at gopbi.com Wed Sep 5 23:44:36 2001 From: timjeffers at gopbi.com (timjeffers at gopbi.com) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 23:44:36 Subject: ADV: Web hosting $6.95 per month - NO GIMMICKS! Message-ID: <127.399763.431657@unknown> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 7211 bytes Desc: not available URL: From premiomayor at univision.com Wed Sep 5 20:56:40 2001 From: premiomayor at univision.com (TREND MARKETING) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 23:56:40 EDT Subject: PORQUE USTED LO MERECE! Message-ID: <38764810.10.9174@mbox.surecom.com> This offer is intended only for opt in clients of Trend Marketing & Associates who live in Latin America and Spain; if you believe that you have received this by error or do not wish to receive future offers please respond to this e-mail with the subject line "REMOVE" Si usted no desea recibir ofertas en el futuro favor de responder a este e-mail con el sujeto "NO MAS" RESERVACION 60191271 CONTROL GNEM090601 ¡Felicidades! ¡Usted ha sido seleccionado! Basado en su estado social y profesional usted ha sido elegido para recibir un boleto para el siguiente paquete vacacional en la Florida con un fabuloso crucero por el Caribe para disfrutar con su familia. Usted puede disfrutar de este programa vacacional exótico cuando desee. Su boleto tiene una vigencia de doce meses. ¡Usted elige la fecha de su viaje! DREAMTIME TOURS INTERNATIONAL TRAVEL SERVICES tiene el orgullo de patrocinar este evento. 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Esto no es ninguna lotería, concurso o sorteo. ¡Se acepta una so! la! llamada para inscribirse! No se aceptan llamdas de terceros ni se le pueden dar detalles. Un hotel puede ser sustituido por otro de la misma clase si no hubiese disponibilidad. La oferta del coche de alquiler no incluye seguros, impuestos ní opciones adicionales. DREAMTIME TOURS INTERNATIONAL TRAVEL SERVICES 12000 Biscayne Blvd. Suite 202 Miami, Florida 33181 This offer is intended only for opt in clients of Trend Marketing & Associates who live in Latin America and Spain; if you believe that you have received this by error or do not wish to receive future offers please respond to this e-mail with the subject line "REMOVE" Si usted no desea recibir ofertas en el futuro favor de responder a este e-mail con el sujeto "NO MAS" © 2001 Derechos reservados de Trend Marketing & Associates, Inc -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 23854 bytes Desc: not available URL: From AFABIntl at netdor.com Wed Sep 5 18:47:37 2001 From: AFABIntl at netdor.com (AFAB Seguridad Electronica) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 01:47:37 +0000 Subject: In English & Espaol Security Web Sites/Paginas Web de Seguridad Message-ID: <20010906014737.UNRQ28026.mtiwmhc25.worldnet.att.net@[12.94.1.7]> AFAB International, Inc., Fort Lauderdale, Florida U. S. A. 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Nombre de usuario = AFAB Clave = Peru User name = AFAB Password = Peru Para mas informacion y precios, nos pueden contactar a los numeros arriba mencionados. For more information and Industry Pricing you may contact us at the numbers above. You are eligible to receive this Email as a recognized security professional. If you have received this in error, or wish to be removed from the mailing list, slimply click Reply and insert the word Remove in the Subject Line. Under Bill s.1618 TITLE III passed by the 105th US Congress this letter cannot be considered spam as it includes contact information and a method of removal. Ud. ha sido elegido para recibir este correo electronico pues lo reconocemos como un profesional de seguridad. Si Ud. ha recibido este correo electronico por erro, o si Ud. desea que lo saquemos de nuestra lista, simplemente haga Click en Reply y escriba la palabra Remove en la linea Subject Line. Bajo la ley S. 1618 TITLE III pasado por el 105 Congreso de los Estados Unidos, esta carta no puede ser considerada como un "spam" pues esta incluye informacion sobre contactos y metodo para removerla. From vortex6 at cardtown.com Thu Sep 6 03:12:50 2001 From: vortex6 at cardtown.com (vortex6 at cardtown.com) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 03:12:50 Subject: toner supplies Message-ID: <447.676074.766186@cardtown.com> **** VORTEX SUPPLIES **** YOUR LASER PRINTER TONER CARTRIDGE, COPIER AND FAX CARTRIDGE CONNECTION SAVE UP TO 30% FROM RETAIL ORDER BY PHONE:1-888-288-9043 ORDER BY FAX: 1-888-977-1577 E-MAIL REMOVAL LINE: 1-888-248-4930 UNIVERSITY AND/OR SCHOOL PURCHASE ORDERS WELCOME. (NO CREDIT APPROVAL REQUIRED) ALL OTHER PURCHASE ORDER REQUESTS REQUIRE CREDIT APPROVAL. PAY BY CHECK (C.O.D), CREDIT CARD OR PURCHASE ORDER (NET 30 DAYS). IF YOUR ORDER IS BY CREDIT CARD PLEASE LEAVE YOUR CREDIT CARD # PLUS EXPIRATION DATE. IF YOUR ORDER IS BY PURCHASE ORDER LEAVE YOUR SHIPPING/BILLING ADDRESSES AND YOUR P.O. NUMBER NOTE: WE DO NOT CARRY 1) XEROX, BROTHER, PANASONIC, FUJITSU PRODUCTS 2) HP DESKJETJET/INK JET OR BUBBLE JET CARTRIDGES 3) CANON BUBBLE JET CARTRIDGES 4) ANY OFFBRANDS BESIDES THE ONES LISTED BELOW. 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ALL TRADEMARKS AND BRAND NAMES LISTED ABOVE ARE PROPERTY OF THE RESPECTIVE HOLDERS AND USED FOR DESCRIPTIVE PURPOSES ONLY. From freematt at coil.com Thu Sep 6 04:27:33 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 07:27:33 -0400 Subject: L. Neil Smith Won The Prometheus Award for "Forge of the Elders" Message-ID: From ravage at ssz.com Thu Sep 6 05:34:52 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 07:34:52 -0500 Subject: Baby's Hand Movements Could Be First Sign Of Language Message-ID: <3B976D6C.886D5B39@ssz.com> http://unisci.com/stories/20013/0906014.htm -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From mean-green at hushmail.com Thu Sep 6 05:02:25 2001 From: mean-green at hushmail.com (mean-green at hushmail.com) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 12:02:25 +0000 Subject: Omniva\'s E-Mail \'Shredder\' Offers New Level of Security Message-ID: <200109061202.f86C2Pr23890@mailserver1.hushmail.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 6834 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Thu Sep 6 03:34:19 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 12:34:19 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: onion p2p camouflaging as vanilla traffic Message-ID: A couple of questions to resident cluebots: 1) what is the bulk of traffic originating on user side and which does not end within the ISP? 2) how much of that traffic is in clear? Specifically, what is the percentile of SSL sessions, and what is the trend? Do we at all already see things SOAPy, .NETy, or XML-RPCy out there in the wild? 3) browser-web server connect is bidirectional. Which do's and don'ts needs one follow, if one wants to implement an unblockable (well, an ISP not granting web access won't stay an ISP for long) p2p infrastructure on top of that? (should have paid more attention to the REST thing on FoRK, damn). Some illuminating comments highly appreciated. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 P.S. Any interest on a #cypherpunks on a silc server? Both client and server are easy to set up. http://silcnet.org/ silc.netropolis.org (208.222.215.99) is there, but seems unreliable. Apart from that, SILC just works. From freematt at coil.com Thu Sep 6 09:51:15 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 12:51:15 -0400 Subject: ACTION: Protecting Privacy, SIGN THIS LETTER Message-ID: From petmaster at iwon.com Thu Sep 6 12:57:59 2001 From: petmaster at iwon.com (Taylor Enterprises) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 12:57:59 Subject: National Brand Grocery Coupons Of Your Choice Message-ID: <200109061638.f86Gcvh22422@logs-ta.proxy.aol.com> Limited Time Offer Here is your ticket to over $500.00 dollars worth of coupons on your favorite grocery products! Get the coupons of your choice on major national brands from your authourized distributor! The Grocery Coupon Certificate savings books allow you to select coupons for the porducts you buy! You select the coupons you want from a list of over 1,000 National Brand items. HOW DOES THIS WORK? For only $29.95, you receive a $500 Grocery Coupon Ceritficate Book. It contains 50 Coupon Certificates. Each certificate is valued at $10 in grocery coupons. Simply fill out the certificate with code numbers of the coupons you want from our list of over 1,000 products and mail it to our processing center. We fill your order with coupons from each selection until we reach the $10 value of the certificate. Your coupons are mailed to you in approximately 14 days. IT' THAT EASY! Taylor Enterprises cypherpunks-unedited at toad.com 225 Meetinghouse Lane Middletown, CT 06457 cypherpunks-unedited at toad.com From vicric at vicric.com Thu Sep 6 10:09:38 2001 From: vicric at vicric.com (Vicki Richman) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 13:09:38 -0400 Subject: Trummel v. Mitchell: 1st Amendment Issue Message-ID: Declan, this is not an electronic issue, but Trummel v. Mitchell, in Washington State, goes to the heart of a question raised on politech: Who is a "legitimate" journalist? See: http://www.contracabal.org/806-00.html Briefly, Paul Trummel, a retired journalist from Britain, with impeccable credentials, discovered what he believed to be fraud and abuse in the management of his moderate-income retirement home. He published leaflets and distributed them to his neighbors. The management got an order of protection against him, effectively banning him from his home and preventing him from approaching his neighbors. He argued freedom of the press, but the judge ruled that he was not a journalist, as he was retired and not employed by any "legitimate" publication. Therefore, the judge held, he lacked protection of the First Amendment and was guilty of harassment. In trying to get the order rescinded, Trummel has a pro bono attorney and an amicus brief by the ACLU. He'd like political civil-libertarian support, as well as financial contributions for his attorney. Solidarity, -- Vicki Richman vicric at vicric.com http://vicric.com ********** From a3495 at cotse.com Thu Sep 6 11:08:45 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 14:08:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: onion p2p camouflaging as vanilla traffic Message-ID: Eugene wrote: >A couple of questions to resident cluebots: > >1) what is the bulk of traffic originating on user side and which does not > end within the ISP? > >2) how much of that traffic is in clear? Specifically, what is the > percentile of SSL sessions, and what is the trend? Do we at > all already see things SOAPy, .NETy, or XML-RPCy out there in the > wild? > >3) browser-web server connect is bidirectional. Which do's and don'ts > needs one follow, if one wants to implement an unblockable (well, an > ISP not granting web access won't stay an ISP for long) p2p > infrastructure on top of that? > >(should have paid more attention to the REST thing on FoRK, damn). > >Some illuminating comments highly appreciated. You might want to check ResearchIndex, the NEC Research Institute's Scientific Literature Digital Library. They have a whole treasure trove of relevant PDFs online: an excellent resource in general(if you haven't come across it already.) Good luck! ~Faustine. http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/cs From bob at black.org Thu Sep 6 14:12:59 2001 From: bob at black.org (Subcommander Bob) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 14:12:59 -0700 Subject: police tracking activists (the more things change...) Message-ID: <3B97E6DB.464048E4@black.org> September 6, 2001 By VIK JOLLY and TONY SAAVEDRA The Orange County Register ANAHEIM -- Detectives compiling information on Latino activists used an investigative technique typically reserved for investigating organized crime, drug networks and street gangs, according to a former police captain. Police, under orders from Chief Roger Baker, created organizational charts on five Latino activists who complained about alleged police misconduct. Baker presented the confidential report Nov. 14, 2000, to the City Council in a closed-door briefing. Retired Capt. Marc Hedgpeth said the charts showing the activists and their connections to community groups were part of a process called "link analysis," often used to outline conspiracies. Hedgpeth, who headed Anaheim's intelligence unit for four of his 25 years with the department, said the process in Anaheim is almost never used on non-criminals. To my knowledge just looking at the report, I can't think of a time when we ever used a link analysis process to deal with people who are not suspected of any kind of criminal conduct," said Hedgpeth, who competed with Baker for the chief's post. "At least four of those people who were attacked by Baker, we never suspected them of any kind of criminal conduct." http://www.ocregister.com/local/chief00906cci1.shtml From Registration at freesamples.com Thu Sep 6 09:28:37 2001 From: Registration at freesamples.com (Registration at freesamples.com) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 16:28:37 +0000 Subject: Visit FreeSamples.com for more free sampling fun. Message-ID: <200109062331.f86NVvO13361@mail1.freesamples.com> Dear Richard, Greetings from FreeSamples.com. Thank you for ordering your free Tide Kick - the revolutionary pretreating and measuring device from Tide. By placing your order, you have automatically become a member of FreeSamples.com - the best sampling site on the web. Here is some important information about your membership: Your user name is: cypherpunks at toad.com Your password is: river For more free sampling fun, just click now on the link below: http://www.FreeSamples.com?v=tknew Please take a moment to save this email in a place where you can easily retrieve it - just in case you ever forget your user name or password. If you do forget your password and can't find this email, just return to FreeSamples.com and click on the link that says "Forgot Your Password?" and we'll email it to you right away. If you want to change your password, first log-in, and then go to "My Preferences" and change it to anything you like. You must enter the new password in both the "Password" and "Confirm Password" windows. Remember to click on the "Update" button located on the bottom right hand side of the screen to lock the new information in. Happy Sampling. Sincerely, Your Friends at FreeSamples.com FUN FOR THE TAKING http://www.FreeSamples.com From tidekick at freesamples.com Thu Sep 6 09:29:36 2001 From: tidekick at freesamples.com (tidekick at freesamples.com) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 16:29:36 +0000 Subject: TideKick order Message-ID: <200109062331.f86NVwO13376@mail1.freesamples.com> Thank you for ordering your free Tide Kick - the revolutionary pretreating and measuring device from Tide. You will receive your Tide Kick coupon in approximately 2-3 weeks. Enjoy your new Tide Kick. The FreeSamples.com and Tide teams Please do not respond to this message. If you need to contact Tide, please click on this link or copy and paste it into your browser: http://www.tide.com/cgi-bin/tellUs.cgi?v=06007026 From bob at black.org Thu Sep 6 17:20:32 2001 From: bob at black.org (Subcommander Bob) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 17:20:32 -0700 Subject: DoJ claims to have subpeona'd reporters phone records 13 times/decade Message-ID: <3B9812D0.DFE3F09@black.org> DoJ claims to have subpeona'd reporters phone records 13 times/decade http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGA94IS6BRC.html From bob at black.org Thu Sep 6 17:26:19 2001 From: bob at black.org (Subcommander Bob) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 17:26:19 -0700 Subject: sued for spying on employees inside your own house Message-ID: <3B98142B.825BC37E@black.org> Posted: September 6, 2001 06:02 PM (WSVN, JUST ONE STATION) Talk show host Rosie O'Donnell is being sued by former members of her security staff. They claim she spied on them and illegally recorded their conversations at her South Florida mansion. Although she doesn't live down here all the time...Rosie O'Donnell is part of the South Florida celebrity scene. And now like many celebs before her, she finds herself on the wrong end of a lawsuit. Rosie O'Donnell is a superstar. But she's lost three of her fans. Chris Delia, Steve Rubio and Ted Van Rijan have filed a lawsuit against Rosie and two security firms. They say while working security at her star island home - their conversations were illegally recorded by a device hidden in smoke detector. All had worked for her for years and say they felt close to the star and her four children. Steve Rubio, Security Guard said, "We developed a bond with the kids you know, we were the male figures, the dominate male figures in their lives pretty much." But the men say any feeling of family evaporated when they were fired after they complained about the hidden recordings. Steve Rubio, Security Guard said, "It's especially hurtful because you basically feel betrayed." They say if she had apologized , they wouldn't have filed a lawsuit. Instead Steve says he got a phone call from an irate Rosie. Steve Rubio, Security Guard said, "And she was just yelling and screaming and cursing at me and you know it was - I was shocked to the point I couldn't even respond to her except to say I think it's probably best to speak, you know, to our attorney." All three men are private investigators and say they understand a star's need for privacy. They suspect they were recorded because Rosie was concerned about leaks to the media about her private life. Its something they say they never did. Steve Rubio, Security Guard said, "Absolutely. And could you look Rosie in the eye and say - absolutely and she should know better - she should know that." But their lawyer says it was Rosie who violated their privacy. Russell Adler, Attorney says, "My clients protected Rosie's family and their privacy and that was very important to them to do that - and Rosie didn't protect theirs." Steve Rubio, Security Guard said, "We would never betray her the way she betrayed us - we would never do that." Expect Rosie O'Donnell to challenge that. she wasn't talking about the lawsuit - but her publicist denies any wrongdoing and says Rosie looks forward to defending herself in court. http://www.wsvn.com/extra/entertainment/box1/ From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Thu Sep 6 17:30:19 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 17:30:19 -0700 Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change Message-ID: <200109070030.f870UJS68852@mailserver1c.hushmail.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 1933 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 6 17:46:41 2001 From: sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com (CJ Parker) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 17:46:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I Sure Am Lonely... Message-ID: <20010907004641.48606.qmail@web20205.mail.yahoo.com> Boy, just get busted one lousy time for sending death threats to federal judges and the richest man in the world, and everybody avoids you like the plague... Nobody replies to my CPukes Posts, NoBody sends me any email... ...well, Attila T. Hun sent a copy of the entire Encyclopaedia Britannica to my Cellular Phone as a Text Message, but that's because he a RealAssHole, eh? (It cost me $4,537.89 in phone charges, but I found out that the Annual Average Rainfall in Bolivia is 79.3 inches, and that Bolivia exports tin, eh? So I guess it wasn't a total loss. Besides, now at least I have something to read, since I CERTAINLY DON'T HAVE ANY EMAIL TO READ, CAUSE NOBODY EVER SENDS ME ANY, EH?) sonofgomez709 "I Invented The [ANY] Key, But Micro$not *Stole* It!" p.s. - AnyBody want to join my new Conspiracy? I need a KingPin so I have someone to RatOut next time, eh? p.p.s. - Bolivia also exports Columbian coffee, but Columbia doesn't export Bolivian coffee. Go figure, eh? ===== CJ Parker #05987-196 "Proud To Be A Felon In Ameri%a!" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com From amp at pobox.com Thu Sep 6 16:15:06 2001 From: amp at pobox.com (amp) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 18:15:06 -0500 Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010905085156.00888460@pop.sprynet.com> References: <20010905084400.B29327@cluebot.com> <3.0.6.32.20010905085156.00888460@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <01090618150606.01265@www.zeugma.nu> On Wednesday 05 September 2001 10:51 am, David Honig wrote: > At 09:49 AM 9/5/01 -0700, John Young wrote: > >Isn't what is new here is that the man did not publish this material > >as was the material of Joyce, Miller, et al? Nobody saw it except > >him and the cop who discovered it. > > Wasn't it his *parents* who read his journal and turned him in, hoping for > 'treatment' > instead of jail? Shades of David & Ted Kaczynski... Indeed. From press accounts, his mother turned him in. (That's how Fedgov got his diary/notebook from what I understand.) The appelate decision that was recently in the news is that he pled guilty thinking he would get probation/treatment. The judge, in effect said, "I don't know why the hell you would have thought that. Lock him up!" I'm concerned that Fedgov has been able to successfully prosecute this thoughtcrime using his own private writings. It could very well be possible that writing his evil thoughts down kept him from acting on them. I know that sometimes when I have a good rant building up, I have to just write it to get it out of my system. This case could well have unintended consequences if people finally understand that Fedgov doesn't give a rat's ass about any alleged 'right to privacy'. Americans allegedly have right to 'keep and bear arms' as well, spelled out on paper (currently being used as toilet paper in government offices across the land), but there are thousands of laws regulating against same. -- TANSTAAFL, amp at pobox.com http://www.zeugma.nu/ Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic. From wolf at priori.net Thu Sep 6 18:24:09 2001 From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 18:24:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hushmail (Was: Re: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Sep 2001 keyser-soze at hushmail.com wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- [snip] > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: Hush 2.0 > > wmAEARECACAFAjuYFYwZHGtleXNlci1zb3plQGh1c2htYWlsLmNvbQAKCRAg4ui5IoBV > n/9+AJ9eK/gSpH59ahQrotIOcYbOo8cHQgCeM0ki/sMKBda2tdCstCyN4LqFQWk= > =1jll > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- It's nice that Hush is using PGP now, but as far as I can tell, there is no way for anyone to obtain your public key, to verify your signature. Thus, signing your messages doesn't do a lot of good at present. I suppose we'll have to wait for "Hush 2.1" for such features. From wolf at priori.net Thu Sep 6 18:24:09 2001 From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 18:24:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hushmail (Was: Re: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Sep 2001 keyser-soze at hushmail.com wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- [snip] > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: Hush 2.0 > > wmAEARECACAFAjuYFYwZHGtleXNlci1zb3plQGh1c2htYWlsLmNvbQAKCRAg4ui5IoBV > n/9+AJ9eK/gSpH59ahQrotIOcYbOo8cHQgCeM0ki/sMKBda2tdCstCyN4LqFQWk= > =1jll > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- It's nice that Hush is using PGP now, but as far as I can tell, there is no way for anyone to obtain your public key, to verify your signature. Thus, signing your messages doesn't do a lot of good at present. I suppose we'll have to wait for "Hush 2.1" for such features. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Thu Sep 6 19:42:25 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 19:42:25 -0700 Subject: Cypherpunks 9/8/01 - GOLDEN GATE PARK - EFF Music Share-In Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010906171258.03161ec0@idiom.com> See http://cryptorights.org/cypherpunks/meetingpunks.html for SF, Toronto, Seattle, & Bangalore Cypherpunks announcements. SF Bay Area Cypherpunks September 2001 Physical Meeting Announcement General Info: DATE: Saturday 8 September 2001 TIME: 1 - 6 PM (Pacific Time) Location: Golden Gate Park, corner of Haight & Stanyan "Our agenda is a widely-held secret." As usual, this is an Open Meeting on US Soil, and everyone's invited. The Cypherpunks Secret Cabal Meeting starts at 1:00, so bring blankets, lunch, tape recorders, drums, etc. The slightly-better-hidden agenda is at http://www.eff.org/events/share-in/ or http://www.eff.org/cafe/share-in/20010823_eff_share_in_pr.html It's the east end of the main part of the park (not counting the Panhandle.) Music Share-in Festival in Golden Gate Park Hosted by Wavy Gravy and John Perry Barlow EFF Music Share In Saturday, September 8, 2001, 2pm-5pm PT Golden Gate Park (corner of Haight & Stanyan) Join the Electronic Frontier Foundation and ten Independent bands for an afternoon of music supporting artists' rights. All bands performing grant permission for their Share - In performances to be recorded and shared with friends under EFF's Open Audio License. Tapers are encouraged and welcome. Ten bands will play in two stage areas in the meadow. Hosting the main stage are Wavy Gravy and EFF co-founder John Perry Barlow. Musicians performing at the event include singer/songwriter Adrian West, the jazzy Alex Buccat Quartet featuring Sanaz, folk/pop band Atticus Scout, high-altitude bluegrass string band Hot Buttered Rum, soulful solo performer Michael Musika, the political satirists of The Planning Commission, Berkeley-based party band Shady Lady, classical Indian instrumentalists Srini and Raja, acoustic rock performer Vanessa Lowe, and singer/songwriter Wendy Haynes. Come with friends and family! Hear great music, feast on Ben and Jerry's ice cream and support a great cause. Best of all, It's FREE! There will also be booths, t-shirts and CDs. Visit our website at: http://www.eff.org/cafe for more information or call +1 415-436-9333 x101 Directions: East end of the main body of the park. http://maps.yahoo.com/py/maps.py?BFCat=&Pyt=Tmap&newFL=Use+Address+Below&addr=haight+st.+and+stanyon+st.&csz=San+Francisco%2C+CA+94117&country=us&Get%A0Map=Get+Map > Thanks! Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com, Cell +1-415-307-7119. > Dave Del Torto, dave at deltor.to From declan at well.com Thu Sep 6 17:03:17 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 20:03:17 -0400 Subject: FC: Replies to "When anyone can publish, who's a journalist now?" Message-ID: Previous Politech message: http://www.politechbot.com/p-02445.html ********** From info at giganetstore.com Thu Sep 6 12:13:06 2001 From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 20:13:06 +0100 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Leil=F5es_ao_pre=E7o_da_banana?= Message-ID: <0b5c40613190691WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com> Os leilões ao preço da Banana no Gigaleilão.com.pt Não perca estas oportunidades... Ou Tudo ou Nada-DVD, The Full Monty Comédia hilariante ao preço da chuva. DVD novo por apenas 900$ ! Fecho 11/09 15:00 Base de licitação 900$ Impressora HP 840C A impressora deskjet mais económica com qualidade fotográfica excepcional! Compre já por apenas 9.900$ ! Fecho 11/09 15:00 Base de licitação 9.900$ Alien, O Regresso-DVD Sigourney Weaver e Winona Ryder brilham neste incrível e extremamente esperado thriller.Preço incrível de 900$ ! Fecho 11/09 15:00 Base de licitação 900$ Windows Millennium A pensar em quem quer utilizar o seu computador de forma divertida, simples e eficaz. Aproveite agora! Só 4.900$ ! Fecho 11/09 15:00 Base de licitação 4.900$ E muito mais... em www.gigaleilao.com.pt . O novo serviço de leilões da giganetstore.com inédito e inovador no mercado online português. Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site http:\\www.giganetstore.com , ir à edição do seu registo e retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das nossas promoções e novos serviços. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 5377 bytes Desc: not available URL: From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Thu Sep 6 20:25:18 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 20:25:18 -0700 Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change Message-ID: <200109070325.f873PIl57589@mailserver1.hushmail.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 2072 bytes Desc: not available URL: From declan at well.com Thu Sep 6 17:35:06 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 20:35:06 -0400 Subject: Who does the First Amendment protect? Message-ID: <20010906203506.A4923@cluebot.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 120 bytes Desc: not available URL: From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Thu Sep 6 20:54:39 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 20:54:39 -0700 Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change Message-ID: <200109070354.f873sdd96239@mailserver1c.hushmail.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 5800 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bill.stewart at pobox.com Thu Sep 6 22:55:30 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 22:55:30 -0700 Subject: Slashdot | Texas Arabic Hosting Provider Shut Down By FBI In-Reply-To: <3B98511E.38D3795A@ssz.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010906222816.0315ad40@idiom.com> At 11:46 PM 09/06/2001 -0500, Jim Choate wrote to the Cypherpunks list > http://slashdot.org/yro/01/09/07/0048215.shtml It's an outrageous story. http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010906/us/business_raided_2.html http://www.middleeastwire.com/newswire/stories/20010905_meno.shtml http://www.txcn.com/texasnews/463428_TXCN_ba_FBIRaid.html http://www.wfaa.com/wfaa/articledisplay/0,1002,31013,00.html - 9/5/01 http://www.wfaa.com/wfaa/articledisplay/0,1002,31120,00.html - 9/6/01 http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010906/wr/mideast_usa_internet_dc_3.html Infocom Corporation, http://www.infocomcorp.com/ is a web hosting and computer sales company based in Richardson, Texas, supporting over 500 clients, particularly Arabic web sites, which were shut down temporarily during the raid (many are back up now). Clients include Al-Jazeera television and the newspaper Al-Sharq, both based in Qatar, and several major Muslim American organizations such as the Council on American Islamic Relations, the Islamic Society of North America, the Islamic Association for Palestine and the Holy Land Foundation. On September 5, the FBI raided them, with a sealed search warrant, looking for information on terrorist groups. They also served subpoenas on the Holy Land Foundation, based across the street, which some of the news articles say the FBI suspects of having ties to Hamas. FBI spokeswoman Lori Bailey said the investigation was not aimed at InfoCom's clients, but she declined to say why authorities targeted the company. 80 agents were involved in the search of the files, and carried boxes of material out of the building. It was part of a two-year investigation by the North Texas Joint Terrorism Task Force (multi-agency incl. FBI, SS, Customs.) The Reuters article on Yahoo describes Al-Jazeera as "a major regional news source for Arabic speakers. Often dubbed ``the Arab CNN,'' it has emerged as a major force in a region where most broadcasters operate under direct state control." One of the Slashdot commentators said it reminded him of the Steve Jackson Games raid. Given the presence of news organizations, potentially including journalism work products subject to ECPA protection, this is my reaction as well. Later stories include the FBI denying accusations of anti-Arab bias, and a statement by 10 American Islamic groups accusing them of an "Anti-Muslim witchhunt promoted by the pro-Israel lobby in America". The FBI denied the raid was any kind of witchhunt, ``We were executing a search warrant as part of a criminal investigation. It had nothing to do with anti-Islamic or anti-Palestinian or anti-Middle East issues or anything like that,'' said special agent Lori Bailey. From declan at well.com Thu Sep 6 19:58:56 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 22:58:56 -0400 Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: <200109070030.f870UJS68852@mailserver1c.hushmail.com>; from keyser-soze@hushmail.com on Thu, Sep 06, 2001 at 05:30:19PM -0700 References: <200109070030.f870UJS68852@mailserver1c.hushmail.com> Message-ID: <20010906225856.A7373@cluebot.com> I'm confused about "Fedgov" references. This was a state law and a state prosecution and a state judge. Doesn't make it right, but it has little to do with "Fedgov." -Declan On Thu, Sep 06, 2001 at 05:30:19PM -0700, keyser-soze at hushmail.com wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > At 06:15 PM 9/6/2001 -0500, amp wrote: > On Wednesday 05 September 2001 10:51 am, David Honig wrote: > > At 09:49 AM 9/5/01 -0700, John Young wrote: > > >Isn't what is new here is that the man did not publish this material > > >as was the material of Joyce, Miller, et al? Nobody saw it except > > >him and the cop who discovered it. > > > > Wasn't it his *parents* who read his journal and turned him in, hoping for > > 'treatment' > > instead of jail? Shades of David & Ted Kaczynski... > > >Indeed. From press accounts, his mother turned him in. (That's how Fedgov got > his diary/notebook from what I understand.) The appelate decision that was > recently in the news is that he pled guilty thinking he would get > probation/treatment. The judge, in effect said, "I don't know why the hell > you would have thought that. Lock him up!" > > >I'm concerned that Fedgov has been able to successfully prosecute this > thoughtcrime using his own private writings. It could very well be possible > that writing his evil thoughts down kept him from acting on them. I know that > sometimes when I have a good rant building up, I have to just write it to get > it out of my system. This case could well have unintended consequences if > people finally understand that Fedgov doesn't give a rat's ass about any > alleged 'right to privacy'. Americans allegedly have right to 'keep and bear > arms' as well, spelled out on paper (currently being used as toilet paper in > government offices across the land), but there are thousands of laws > regulating against same. > > This may continue until JDF types with nothing to lose (e.g., diagnosed with a terminal illness) put selected DOJ, FBI and Congressional targets in their sights. > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: Hush 2.0 > > wmAEARECACAFAjuYFYwZHGtleXNlci1zb3plQGh1c2htYWlsLmNvbQAKCRAg4ui5IoBV > n/9+AJ9eK/gSpH59ahQrotIOcYbOo8cHQgCeM0ki/sMKBda2tdCstCyN4LqFQWk= > =1jll > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From drriley at mac.com Thu Sep 6 19:59:32 2001 From: drriley at mac.com (drriley) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 22:59:32 -0400 Subject: Software to help fix your credit In-Reply-To: <0000761b7c72$00006cde$00004324@> References: <0000761b7c72$00006cde$00004324@> Message-ID: <8041379973.20010906225932@mac.com> Hmmm ... sounds like spam to me ... but on the topic of credit reports and credit ratings ... I was even denied the opportunity to open a chequing account by a bank yesterday, because my credit file had "derogatory remarks" on it ... but the bank was unable to confirm what those "derogatory remarks" were. Friday, July 13, 2001, 12:42:47 PM, you wrote: hfic> Have you checked your personal credit reports recently? hfic> If you are planning making any major purchase like purchasing a Home or hfic> newcar or getting a new job or even a promotion, Please....read on! hfic> You need to have a GOOD to EXCELLENT credit rating. If you do already, hfic> that's important, but if you know your credit is less than perfect, you need hfic> to get those negative remarks REMOVED, LEGALLY and quickly. From ravage at ssz.com Thu Sep 6 21:14:33 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 23:14:33 -0500 Subject: The Constitution & Gun Rights Message-ID: <3B9849A9.B0B41B60@ssz.com> http://www.ssz.com/cdr/guns.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From schoen at loyalty.org Thu Sep 6 23:28:18 2001 From: schoen at loyalty.org (Seth David Schoen) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 23:28:18 -0700 Subject: Cypherpunks 9/8/01 - GOLDEN GATE PARK - EFF Music Share-In In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20010906232215.0316ce70@idiom.com> References: <5.0.2.1.1.20010906200542.03153ab0@idiom.com> <5.0.2.1.1.20010906200542.03153ab0@idiom.com> <5.0.2.1.1.20010906232215.0316ce70@idiom.com> Message-ID: <20010906232818.I7391@zork.net> I'm going to be working at the Share-in, and I'd additionally like to invite everybody to celebrate a billion seconds of Unix with me immediately following the event. The 1,000,000,000th second after the Unix epoch is Sat Sep 8 18:46:40 PDT 2001 which closely follows this weekend's concert. I intend to have a celebratory dinner in honor of Unix history as soon as the concert clean-up is finished. -- Seth David Schoen | Its really terrible when FBI arrested Temp. http://www.loyalty.org/~schoen/ | hacker, who visited USA with peacefull down: http://www.loyalty.org/ (CAF) | mission -- to share his knowledge with http://www.freesklyarov.org/ | american nation. (Ilya V. Vasilyev) From bill.stewart at pobox.com Thu Sep 6 23:28:23 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 23:28:23 -0700 Subject: Friday, 9/7 - International Day of Action Against Video Surveillance Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010906232654.0316ca90@idiom.com> Perform for a video camera today! Or alternatively, go buy a cheap webcam and surveil somebody who's already performing (oh, wait, that wasn't what they meant :-) The EFF announced the following: --------- Friday, September 7 - International Day of Action Against Video Surveillance Join privacy-minded citizens in raising awareness of public video surveillance Electronic Frontier Foundation ACTION ALERT (Issued: Friday, August 31, 2001 / Deadline: Friday, September 7, 2001) Introduction: On Friday, 7 September 2001, a variety of groups from around the world will be collaborating on an international day of autonomous protests against the constant, indiscriminate and technologically sophisticated video surveillance of public places by both businesses and law enforcement agencies, and in favor of the right to privacy, which is a fundamental human right. The protests will take the form of short skits and plays, the majority of which will take place in front of "webcams," so that people all over the world can watch them via the Internet. What YOU Can Do: * If you are concerned about surveillance cameras in your area, and would like to get involved in the protests, then see New York's Surveillance Camera Players' (SCP) "How to Stage Your Own 'Surveillance Camera Theater' in 10 Easy-to-Follow Steps!" at: http://www.notbored.org/scp-how-to.html * To add your group to the confirmed list of activists, email SCP at: notbored at panix.com * Contact your legislators about online privacy issues. For information on how to contact your legislators and other government officials, see EFF's "Contacting Congress and Other Policymakers" guide at: http://www.eff.org/congress.html * Join EFF! For membership information see: http://www.eff.org/support/ Privacy Campaign: This drive to contact the Judiciary bureaucracy about their invasive policies is part of a larger campaign to highlight how extensively companies and governmental agencies subject us to surveillance and share and use personal information online, and what you can do about it. Check the EFF Privacy Now! Campaign website regularly for additional alerts and news: http://www.eff.org/privnow/ Background: The proposal reads as follows: We propose -- 1. that an international day of action against video surveillance -- specifically: the constant, indiscriminate and technologically sophisticated video surveillance of public places by both businesses and and law enforcement agencies -- take place on Friday, 7 September 2001; 2. that people who wish to intensify the struggle to protect and strengthen the right to privacy (a fundamental human right) should undertake autonomous actions at the local level and in a completely de-centralized fashion; 3. that, if and when possible, at least some of these actions should be undertaken in front of webcams that have already been installed in public places by private companies that are insensitive or even hostile to privacy concerns (in addition to disrupting "business as usual" for these companies, the use of webcams will allow the entire world to see 7s01 anti-videosurveillance actions as they take place); 4. that all individuals and groups participating in the 7s01 day of action keep in touch with at least one of the groups listed below and/or each other; 5. that at least one Web site links to or actually displays images from these actions as they take place; 6. that this proposal should be posted on-line and sent to as many people as possible and as soon as possible; and 7. that this proposal be translated into as many foreign languages as possible, but especially French, German, and Italian, for it is in France, Belgium, Germany and Italy that the anti-videosurveillance struggle is the most visible at the moment. List of participating groups: http://www.notbored.org/7s01.html EFF's action alert: http://www.eff.org/alerts/20010831_surveil_cam_alert.html Contacts: Bill Brown, Surveillance Camera Players notbored at panix.com +1 212-561-0106 http://www.surveillancecameraplayers.org/ Will Doherty, EFF Online Activist / Media Relations wild at eff.org +1 415 436 9333 x111 - end - From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Fri Sep 7 02:32:36 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 23:32:36 -1000 Subject: US v Miller (was Re: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: <200109070325.f873PIl57589@mailserver1.hushmail.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010906232421.01bec0e0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 20:25 9/6/2001 -0700, keyser-soze at hushmail.com wrote: >I was referring to the raft of federal firearms regulations and >prosecutions which ignore the clear interpretation of Miller v. >U.S.: that the right to keep and bear arms with obvious military >use shall not be regulated. > >The opinion didn't exactly say this because Jack Miller, a bank >robber and moonshiner, could not afford representation before the >SC and in fact died of apparent self-inflicted wounds before the >hearing date. I read he was a moonshiner and was murdered, possibly by competing moonshiners. >His co-defendent >Frank Layton apparently decided he wasn't interested in defending >our rights under the 2nd and took four years probation. I read he fled. >But despite the lack of >defendent representation the opinion, written by Justice James Clark >McReynolds, was notable in that it did not completely cave in to the >government demands. > >The case was returned to the lower court where Miller, if living, >could have made further arguments on his own behalf. He could have >easily and correctly argued that short-barreled shotguns had been >popular military weapons in the trenches of the First World War. It >was lucky for the federal government that he was dead. Isn't that amazing. >The courts and Congress have turned this opinion on its head to suit >their own purposes and because many/most in power see such citizen >empowerment as nothing short of a Constitutional suicide pact and >refuse to accept it. They can't remove the Second but they can try >and interpret it away. What is your source for all this? This case is a point of interest for me and such details as you have provided are not contained in the text of the ruling, so where did they come from? Reese From tcmay at got.net Thu Sep 6 23:41:22 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 23:41:22 -0700 Subject: Friday, 9/7 - International Day of Action Against Video Surveillance In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20010906232654.0316ca90@idiom.com> Message-ID: <200109070644.f876irf15072@slack.lne.com> On Thursday, September 6, 2001, at 11:28 PM, Bill Stewart wrote: > Perform for a video camera today! Or alternatively, go buy a cheap > webcam > and surveil somebody who's already performing (oh, wait, that wasn't > what they meant :-) > > The EFF announced the following: > --------- > > Friday, September 7 - International Day of Action Against Video > Surveillance > An "International Day of Action..." Gee, why are so many EFF and similar events sounding so much like Lefty events from the 60s? "National Mobilization Against Online Imperialism" "Teach-in to protest corporatism" "Join our circle today" "Jane Fonda and Abbe Hoffman need our help." "Perform for a video camera today!" "Fight the fascist insects who prey upon the life of the people." -- Stokely May From ravage at ssz.com Thu Sep 6 21:41:40 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 23:41:40 -0500 Subject: CNN.com - Could your job go to China? - September 6, 2001 Message-ID: <3B985004.9DA7C110@ssz.com> http://www.cnn.com/2001/CAREER/trends/09/06/china.trade.jobs/index.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Thu Sep 6 21:46:22 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 23:46:22 -0500 Subject: Slashdot | Hosting Provider Shut Down By FBI Message-ID: <3B98511E.38D3795A@ssz.com> http://slashdot.org/yro/01/09/07/0048215.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From pablo-escobar at hushmail.com Thu Sep 6 23:46:48 2001 From: pablo-escobar at hushmail.com (pablo-escobar at hushmail.com) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 23:46:48 -0700 Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change Message-ID: <200109070646.f876kmV31802@mailserver1.hushmail.com> At 05:30 PM 9/6/2001 -0700, keyser-soze at hushmail.com wrote: At 06:15 PM 9/6/2001 -0500, amp wrote: >>This case could well have unintended consequences if people finally understand that Fedgov doesn't give a rat's ass about any alleged 'right to privacy'. Americans allegedly have right to 'keep and bear arms' as well, spelled out on paper (currently being used as toilet paper in government offices across the land), but there are thousands of laws regulating against same. >This may continue until JDF types with nothing to lose (e.g., diagnosed with a terminal illness) put selected DOJ, FBI and Congressional targets in their sights. Yes! Its the hour to make a charter member of the Society of Timothy McVeigh. Choose a target and squeeze. Make an infamous exit. I know when I am in the door of the death that I will gladly join. From gngoa at goatelecom.com Thu Sep 6 12:09:19 2001 From: gngoa at goatelecom.com (Gregory & Nicholas) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 00:39:19 +0530 Subject: Club Cubana Goa Message-ID: <000a01c13707$70367380$8ca1d4d2@oemcomputer> Club Cubana Goa`s hottest nightspot opening for the season 2001-2002 on the 14th October 2001 once again. Featuring Dj`s from London in the first half. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 639 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at ssz.com Fri Sep 7 05:32:47 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 07:32:47 -0500 Subject: Quantum Crypto to the Rescue Message-ID: <3B98BE6F.1EA49C23@ssz.com> http://www.wired.com/news/infostructure/0,1377,46610,00.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Fri Sep 7 05:41:54 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 07:41:54 -0500 Subject: Linux.com :: Opinion :: Articles - on copyright Message-ID: <3B98C092.6B56E265@ssz.com> http://linux.com/opinion/newsitem.phtml?sid=1&aid=12516 -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From baptista at pccf.net Fri Sep 7 07:39:49 2001 From: baptista at pccf.net (baptista at pccf.net) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 10:39:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Software to help fix your credit In-Reply-To: <8041379973.20010906225932@mac.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Sep 2001, drriley wrote: > Hmmm ... sounds like spam to me ... but on the topic of credit reports > and credit ratings ... I was even denied the opportunity to open a > chequing account by a bank yesterday, because my credit file had > "derogatory remarks" on it ... but the bank was unable to confirm what > those "derogatory remarks" were. dr. - your in the cypherpunks conferences. whata pleasure. regards joe > > > > Friday, July 13, 2001, 12:42:47 PM, you wrote: > > hfic> Have you checked your personal credit reports recently? > > hfic> If you are planning making any major purchase like purchasing a Home or > hfic> newcar or getting a new job or even a promotion, Please....read on! > > hfic> You need to have a GOOD to EXCELLENT credit rating. If you do already, > hfic> that's important, but if you know your credit is less than perfect, you need > hfic> to get those negative remarks REMOVED, LEGALLY and quickly. > > > -- The dot.GOD Registry, Limited http://www.dot-god.com/ From baptista at pccf.net Fri Sep 7 07:39:49 2001 From: baptista at pccf.net (baptista at pccf.net) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 10:39:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Software to help fix your credit In-Reply-To: <8041379973.20010906225932@mac.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Sep 2001, drriley wrote: > Hmmm ... sounds like spam to me ... but on the topic of credit reports > and credit ratings ... I was even denied the opportunity to open a > chequing account by a bank yesterday, because my credit file had > "derogatory remarks" on it ... but the bank was unable to confirm what > those "derogatory remarks" were. dr. - your in the cypherpunks conferences. whata pleasure. regards joe > > > > Friday, July 13, 2001, 12:42:47 PM, you wrote: > > hfic> Have you checked your personal credit reports recently? > > hfic> If you are planning making any major purchase like purchasing a Home or > hfic> newcar or getting a new job or even a promotion, Please....read on! > > hfic> You need to have a GOOD to EXCELLENT credit rating. If you do already, > hfic> that's important, but if you know your credit is less than perfect, you need > hfic> to get those negative remarks REMOVED, LEGALLY and quickly. > > > -- The dot.GOD Registry, Limited http://www.dot-god.com/ From a3495 at cotse.com Fri Sep 7 10:29:19 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 13:29:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: police tracking activists (the more things change...) Message-ID: Subcommander Bob wrote: >ANAHEIM -- Detectives compiling information on Latino activists used an >investigative technique typically reserved for investigating organized >crime, drug networks and street gangs, according to a former police >captain. Police, under orders from Chief Roger Baker, created >organizational charts on five Latino activists who complained about >alleged police misconduct. Baker presented the confidential report Nov. >14, 2000, to the City Council in a closed-door briefing. Retired Capt. >Marc Hedgpeth said the charts showing the activists and their connections >to community groups were part of a process called "link analysis," often >used to outline conspiracies. If you're interested in how this works, here's a link to some interesting free demo software, for those who haven't seen it already: The Analyst's Notebook http://www.i2.co.uk/products/an/index_ns.htm The Analyst's Notebook is the world's leading visual investigative analysis software, used in 1200 organizations world-wide. It assists investigators by uncovering, interpreting, and displaying complex information in easily- understood chart form. The Analyst's Notebook includes two main tools for differently types of analysis, the Link Notebook and the Case Notebook. The Link Notebook supports: Link Analysis chart (also called Association charts) Commodity Flow charts Activity Charts Network or high volume link analysis charts The Case Notebook supports: Timeline or Sequence of Events Charts Case Flow or Transaction charts Combined Charts Showing Events and Flows Use the power of the Analyst's Notebook to: Visualize your Data! The Analyst's Notebook gives you a range of visualization formats, each one shedding a different light on your information. The Analysts Notebook supports the full range of analytical conventions adopted by analysts world-wide. In addition, the extensive features enable you to quickly find the connections between related sets of information, and reveal significant patterns in your data. Analyze Information from Many Sources The Analyst's Notebook can automatically analyze a dataset and portray it in the chart format of your choice. It helps you navigate through large networks in order to unravel complex relationships and quickly discover key information. The analytical techniques you can apply include: Link Analysis Timeline Analysis Network Analysis Create Intelligent Graphics In the Analyst's Notebook, chart items aren't just symbolic representations, they link back to the records in your data. Clicking on a chart item allows instant viewing or editing of the supporting information. .. and Present a Professional Picture. Use Analyst's Notebook's rich graphical environment to create charts for use in briefings and easily create "the picture that speaks a thousand words"! The Analyst's Notebook has proven to significantly increase the productivity of investigative teams, to help both analysts and managers achieve and retain an understanding of multiple cases and extensive data. The charts have proven successful in conveying complex information to judges and juries." "Intelligence-led Policing In 1996, the UK hosted the European Football (Soccer) Championship 'Euro 96'. the British Government was determined that the football action would not be overshadowed by hooliganism. A special unit was set up at New Scotland Yard to police the competition. the unit included an intelligence cell equipped with i2's Analysts Notebook linked to a text database. The majority of countries represented at the Euro 96 competition already used the i2 Analysts Notebooks to analyze crime in their own countries. Each country sent a representative to liaise with the British police and the product provided a common format for exchanging intelligence between them. The analysts used the Analysts Notebook to create charts identifying the trouble makers and showing the links between them. These charts were used in briefings at all levels to show the remarkably complex associations identified by the analysis. Senior officers were then able to identify possible problems and prevent trouble by targeting resources in the right locations. The i2 Analyst's Notebook charts were then included within the intelligence briefing packs and distributed to the operational units. They proved to be a very powerful method of showing problem areas and significantly contributed to the success of the operation. The disruptive elements were often intercepted before they reached the stadium. The country-wide operation successfully identified and prevented many potential incidents in the days, hours and minutes leading up to the Euro 96 matches. The operational teams used the intelligence to good effect, ensuring that the games were enjoyed in the trouble-free atmosphere they deserve." Analyst's Workstation A tailored software solution that has proved effective in law enforcement for tackling Crime and Social Disorder, and has applications within the commercial sector for loss prevention, such as fraudulent claims against insurance companies. The Analyst's Workstation integrates the complete i2 suite of analysis tools, enabling you to switch seamlessly between different analysis techniques without losing the overall thread of your work: Spatial, through links to Geographical Information Systems - highlighting concentrations of activity or "hotspots". Statistical, with iGlass (see below) Associative, with Analyst's Notebook - identifying associations and networks Temporal, with Analyst's Notebook - showing how events and activities relate to time Visual Querying, with iBase (see below) At the heart of the Analyst's Workstation, iBase is a database that provides a central repository for information from a variety of sources, in a structured and co-herent manner. iBase includes user-friendly features, such as Visual Querying, which enables you to easily ask questions of the data and quickly find the information you require. iGlass is a state-of-the-art data-mining tool which enables you to explore and present your data in a variety of statistical formats. You can identify patterns and trends, make comparisons between data-sets and highlight exceptions from the norm, all of which can be presented in a range of graphs and charts for reporting purposes. Seamless integration with the Analyst's Notebook., so you can conduct detailed link and timeline analysis of the data. Represented as a 'chart' you can analyse the detail of your information and visually identify the key entities, common associations, sequence of events and location of scenarios. Integration to leading GIS suppliers enables you to conduct spatial analysis, for example, viewing the location and number of incidences within your chosen geographical area. With the Analyst's Workstation you can more easily identify, consider and communicate complex scenarios, giving you an understanding of your problem which is fundamental to the formulation and implementation of strategies to address it." From jya at pipeline.com Fri Sep 7 13:40:09 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 13:40:09 -0700 Subject: Begging for Enemies of the State Message-ID: <200109071747.NAA20092@maynard.mail.mindspring.net> WSJ had a hilarious report yesterday about the frantic search for prisoners to fill empty prison beds that have resulted from frantic construction to meet court orders and mandatory sentencing now offset by declining crime rates -- or sentencing rates -- and governments kicking prisoners out of jail to reduce costs. The competiton between government-run prisons and the commercial ops have led to fabulous lobbying and jawboning of legislators and wardens to spread the lucrative but diminishing prison-care population around, represented in the report by Mississippi's plight of having too few prisoners to fill its state pens and county jails. At one point a bill was near passage that would have paid commercial operators for empty beds, for "ghost prisoners," so they wouldn't pull out to the business (following the admirable lead of the defense and farming industries). When that term made it into the news, there was a quick veto of the bill, but still the struggle goes on to find more prisoners or bookkeeping simulations thereof. Florida leads the nation with over 80,000 empty prison beds. Pity the pressured investigators and prosecutors and spooks to fabricate more enemies of the state or AP-bookkeeping simulations thereof. From freematt at coil.com Fri Sep 7 10:47:24 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 13:47:24 -0400 Subject: FBI Raids Muslim (ISP) Businesses, Charity Organizations Message-ID: Source: Direct Submission Organization: MENO Newsletter Email: Newsletter at MiddleEastWire.com To: msanews at msanews.mynet.net Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 18:48:10 1700 Title: Latest News Updates TEXT: Wednesday, September 5th, 2001 Latest News Update From Middle East News Online FBI Raids Muslim Businesses, Charity Organizations By Middle East News Online Reporter Posted Wednesday September 5, 2001 - 06:02:04 PM EDT DALLAS, Texas (MENO) - In another attempt to crack down on Muslims in the United States, the FBI hit again Wednesday, raiding a well-known Muslim Internet Service Provider company in Dallas, Texas. A Dallas area television reported that the raid involved nearly 50 federal agents and was preceded by complete evacuation of the building that hosted the company, Infocom Corporation, among other businesses. No reasons were yet provided for the raid, but Muslim activists in the US fear that the US' backing of Israel is forcing it to become a "police state." The Muslim company hosts over 500 companies including leading Muslim organizations' web sites. Eyewitnesses say that agents from the State Department, US Customs and US Secret Services have also took part of the raid. Infocom is based in Richardson, Texas. Currently, the company's entire records are being confiscated, a process that might take a few days. The host company provides services for well-known organizations such as Council on American Islamic Relations, Islamic Society of North America and Holy Land Foundation. Muslim leaders in the US say that such actions are very alarming, especially as some of these organizations known for their charity works, not only for Palestine, but also worldwide. Bayan Elashi, the owner of Infocom, told reporters "We are just waiting for them (the FBI) to tell us what this is about." MORE HEADLINES Greek FM: European Union A Great Opportunity For Turkish Cypriots Iraq: Saddam's Romance Novel Heads For Stage As Musical Saudi FM Meets Lahoud And Hariri, Accuses Israel Of Escalating Violence Kuwait, Jordan Sign Cultural Accord Israeli Forces on High Alert Poll Shows American Voters Favor Palestinian Statehood Israel Decides To Create "Buffer Zone" With Palestinian Territories Arafat-Peres Meeting Seen Possible Truce Efforts Pick Up King Abdullah, Solana Urge Implementation Of Mitchell's Recommendation COVERING THE WORLD CONFERENCE ON RACISM Durban Gathering Mulling South Africa Text On Middle East Conflict Moussa: US' Withdrawal From World Conference Against Racism Flagrant Bias Most Israelis Approve of UN Racism Conference Pullout 'Voices of Victims' at Durban Racism Conference Kuwait Bar Union Plays Big Role In Durban U.S. Withdrawal From UN Conference Criticised BUSINESS NEWS UPDATE 'Oman, Arab World Net Bandwidth Starved' By Conrad Prabhu Posted Wednesday September 5, 2001 - 10:18:38 AM EDT Muscat - Studies conducted by a strategic research company indicate that the Sultanate, along with a number of countries in the Arab world, will remain Internet bandwidth starved for several more years before improvements are forthcoming. According to the Arab Advisors Group (AAG), a Jordan-based specialised research and consulting company, the estimated 740,000-odd Internet subscribers in eight Arab countries share a grand total of Internet bandwidth of no more than 777 mbps. The combined Internet bandwidth of the Sultanate, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Jordan, Morocco, Syria and the United Arab Emirates pales in comparison to what Internet users have in Europe and the United States. The combined bandwidth of these eight Arab markets is equal to what 518 cable modem subscribers in the US have, the study concluded. The group's findings explain why the total Internet bandwidth in Oman and the Arab world is very low compared to that of other countries. It compares the Internet bandwidth among the Arab countries by using the group's 'Regional Bandwidth Index'. "In looking at what the AAG refers to as the 'Regional Bandwidth Index', we note that Internet users in Oman, Morocco, Egypt and Jordan have better bandwidth availability than those in the UAE, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon and Syria," said Jawad Abbassi, AAG's president. "Syria is the most bandwidth deprived of the countries with a score of 0.19. Egypt topped the rankings with a score of 2.11." The AAG calculated the Regional Bandwidth Index by dividing each country's share of the total Internet bandwidth available by its share of the total subscribers' base. A score of more than one indicates a better than regional bandwidth per subscriber. The higher the index the better the bandwidth situation in the country compared to the region. The research group tied the intra-regional variance to the different dynamics of competition and liberalisation in the Arab countries. However, the overall low Internet bandwidth in all of the countries is a direct result of high costs, it pointed out. "Overall, Internet bandwidth costs in the region remain at much higher rates than those in the US or even Europe. Being small operators on the global scene, the ISPs/operators still lack any 'peering' arrangements with international backbone operators. As such they continue to pay the complete cost of full-circuit connections to the International Internet backbone operators. Add to this, the existence of cross subsidisation (local rates by international rates) by monopoly operators and the cost becomes even higher," Abbassi explained. "The statistics in this research note are based on extensive and painstaking primary research in all of the markets analysed," Abbassi noted. "AAG's team of analysts are based in the region and periodically travel to the countries they cover to meet with operators, regulators and vendors as well as to cement their relationship with AAG's in-country researchers. The strong emphasis on primary research stems from AAG's commitment to providing the most reliable research, analysis and forecasts of Arab communications and Internet markets," he added. With liberalisation and privatisation steps gathering momentum across the region (five of the markets already have plans to introduce competition in international service by 2005), the AAG predicts an easing of the situation as international bandwidth rates in these markets come down and ISPs expand their international bandwidth without extra costs. The AAG's team of analysts produce a subscription only Strategic Research Service that provides its clients with country by country projections and landscape analysis report covering the Internet, telecommunication, and technology industries in the Arab world. The service also includes trend reports that analyse major trends and outlines best practices and strategies in Internet, telecommunication, and technology in the Arab world, and periodic Research Notes analysing major events and developments. MORE BUSINESS HEADLINES Venezuela Says OPEC Still Wants Higher Oil Prices Money Laundering Problem Totals 1 Trillion Amman Stock Exchange Trading Maintains Upward Trend National Bank Of Oman Launches Privilege Banking In Egypt Alcatel To Start Rehabilitation Of Iraq's Phone Network Jordan's Trade deficit goes up 15.3 % 'Oman, Arab World Net Bandwidth Starved' Yemen Approved To Partially Privatize Top Bank Tourism Industry In Palestine Suffering From Israeli Blockade ---------------------------------- For your comments and opinions please feel free to visit our Readers Forum to submit your opinion for possible publication. To be removed from future mailings, please click here or hit reply with REMOVE in the subject line. Copyright )2001 Middle East News Service, Inc. All rights reserved. ______________________________________________________________________________ __ __________ _ _______ ______ / |/ / __/ _ | / |/ / __/ | /| / / __/ / /|_/ /\ \/ __ |/ / _/ | |/ |/ /\ \ /_/ /_/___/_/ |_/_/|_/___/ |__/|__/___/ Views expressed on MSANEWS do not necessarily represent those of the MSANEWS editors, the Ohio State University or any of our associated staff and "watchers". Further distribution of material featured on this list may be restricted. In all cases, please obtain the necessary permission of the authors or rightful owners before forwarding any material to or from this list. This service is meant for the exchange of analyses and news, for both academic and activist usage. We depend on your input. However, this is not a discussion list. Thank you. To subscribe, send e-mail to: with the message body "subscribe MSANEWS Firstname Lastname". ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************** From juicy at melontraffickers.com Fri Sep 7 14:01:24 2001 From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 14:01:24 -0700 Subject: Eric Hughes Message-ID: Does anyone know Eric Hughes' current email address? the ricocet one is, of course, non-functional now. Thanks. From support at adcritic.com Fri Sep 7 11:06:51 2001 From: support at adcritic.com (AdCritic.com Support) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 14:06:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Thanks for registering with AdCritic.com!! Message-ID: <200109071806.OAA45117@hot.adcritic.com> ======================== Welcome to AdCritic.com! ======================== Username: cypher34534 Thank you for registering with AdCritic.com!! In order to confirm your registration, please click the link below. This will complete your registration and you will be a full member of Adcritic.com. Authentication link: http://www.adcritic.com/login/register/validate/?auth=MTU0NDU2LWZPdkxO Thank you, The AdCritic.com staff PS: Want to see our ads 10 to 50 times faster than you do now? Try our monthly subscription with full-screen ads and unlimited high-speed access. 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AdCritic.com Account Relations http://www.AdCritic.com/ -- x:206.133.176.176 t:Fri, 7 Sep 2001 14:15:41 -0400 From announce at inbox.nytimes.com Fri Sep 7 11:19:16 2001 From: announce at inbox.nytimes.com (NYTimes.com) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 14:19:16 -0400 Subject: Update your NYTimes.com Membership Message-ID: <200109071842.f87IgpB04449@ak47.algebra.com> Dear Member, Our records indicate that you have more than one NYTimes.com Subscriber ID. (Most likely, this is due to your registering to NYTimes.com again from different computers, or after a long period of not visiting us.) In order to help us provide you with the best service and to avoid duplication, please visit: http://www.nytimes.com/services/email/selectacct.html (You might be asked to sign in with your Subscriber ID and password. If you have forgotten your password, please visit http://www.nytimes.com/forgot for help.) 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The other IDs will then be cancelled from our system. If you prefer, you can ignore this message and after two weeks we will cancel the additional IDs and keep active the Subscriber ID you were using most recently. Thank you for your continued interest in NYTimes.com. Sincerely, The New York Times on the Web ------------------------------ ABOUT THIS E-MAIL This is a one time e-mail. As a member of the BBBOnline Privacy Program and the TRUSTe privacy program, we are committed to protecting your privacy. Please do not reply directly to this e-mail, but contact us at comments at nytimes.com. From announce at inbox.nytimes.com Fri Sep 7 11:19:16 2001 From: announce at inbox.nytimes.com (NYTimes.com) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 14:19:16 -0400 Subject: Update your NYTimes.com Membership Message-ID: <200109071850.NAA29552@einstein.ssz.com> Dear Member, Our records indicate that you have more than one NYTimes.com Subscriber ID. (Most likely, this is due to your registering to NYTimes.com again from different computers, or after a long period of not visiting us.) In order to help us provide you with the best service and to avoid duplication, please visit: http://www.nytimes.com/services/email/selectacct.html (You might be asked to sign in with your Subscriber ID and password. If you have forgotten your password, please visit http://www.nytimes.com/forgot for help.) Once you are on this page -- http://www.nytimes.com/services/email/selectacct.html -- you will see a list of Subscriber IDs currently registered to your e-mail address. Simply select the one you want to keep. The other IDs will then be cancelled from our system. If you prefer, you can ignore this message and after two weeks we will cancel the additional IDs and keep active the Subscriber ID you were using most recently. Thank you for your continued interest in NYTimes.com. Sincerely, The New York Times on the Web ------------------------------ ABOUT THIS E-MAIL This is a one time e-mail. As a member of the BBBOnline Privacy Program and the TRUSTe privacy program, we are committed to protecting your privacy. Please do not reply directly to this e-mail, but contact us at comments at nytimes.com. From support at adcritic.com Fri Sep 7 11:32:30 2001 From: support at adcritic.com (AdCritic.com Support) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 14:32:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Thanks for registering with AdCritic.com!! Message-ID: <200109071832.OAA01576@hot.adcritic.com> ======================== Welcome to AdCritic.com! ======================== Username: cypher34534 Thank you for registering with AdCritic.com!! In order to confirm your registration, please click the link below. This will complete your registration and you will be a full member of Adcritic.com. http://www.adcritic.com/login/register/validate/?auth=MTU0NDU2LWZPdkxO Authentication Hash: MTU0NDU2LWZPdkxO Thank you, The AdCritic.com staff PS: Want to see our ads 10 to 50 times faster than you do now? Try our monthly subscription with full-screen ads and unlimited high-speed access. More info at http://www.adcritic.com/submissions/highspeed/ From stevet at sendon.net Fri Sep 7 07:46:24 2001 From: stevet at sendon.net (Steve Thompson) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 14:46:24 +0000 Subject: I Sure Am Lonely... References: <20010907004641.48606.qmail@web20205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200109071621.MAA02558@divert.sendon.net> Quoting CJ Parker (sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com): > Boy, just get busted one lousy time for sending > death threats to federal judges and the richest man > in the world, and everybody avoids you like the > plague... You've obviously learned that there's no accounting for taste. > Nobody replies to my CPukes Posts, NoBody sends me > any email... > ...well, Attila T. Hun sent a copy of the entire > Encyclopaedia Britannica to my Cellular Phone as > a Text Message, but that's because he a RealAssHole, > eh? > (It cost me $4,537.89 in phone charges, but I found > out that the Annual Average Rainfall in Bolivia is > 79.3 inches, and that Bolivia exports tin, eh? So > I guess it wasn't a total loss. Besides, now at least > I have something to read, since I CERTAINLY DON'T > HAVE ANY EMAIL TO READ, CAUSE NOBODY EVER SENDS ME > ANY, EH?) Sorry, guy. People who send email to known felons and fed molesters bring down the wrath of Right Thinking People upon themselves. You have no-one to blame other than yourself. > sonofgomez709 > "I Invented The [ANY] Key, But Micro$not *Stole* It!" > p.s. - AnyBody want to join my new Conspiracy? I need > a KingPin so I have someone to RatOut next time, eh? I'll let you know just as soon as I finish ratting out my parents. > p.p.s. - Bolivia also exports Columbian coffee, but > Columbia doesn't export Bolivian coffee. Go figure, > eh? Do they have coffee growers selling to the Fair Trade consortium down there? Regards, Steve -- ``If religion were nothing but an illusion and a sham, there could be no philosophy of it. The study of it would belong to abnormal psychology.... Religion cannot afford to claim exemption from philosophical enquiry. If it attempts to do so on the grounds of sanctity, it can only draw upon itself suspicion that it is afraid to face the music.'' -- H. J. Paton, "The Modern Predicament" From pcw at flyzone.com Fri Sep 7 12:17:21 2001 From: pcw at flyzone.com (Peter Wayner) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 15:17:21 -0400 Subject: Baltimore Digital Commerce Society-- Korhammer on Lava Trading, Oct 2 Message-ID: <200109071918.f87JIl908821@snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net> [ These guys are building a very cool, cross-exchange tool. It constantly keeps track of the bids and asks on a number of exchanges letting you send your business to where the prices are best. It's fascinating to watch the screen update the quotes in real time. This kind of semi-automated, trading assistance is bound to become more and more prevalent. I think Lava Trading is doing some of the most interesting stuff around. -Peter] Baltimore Digital Commerce Society Tuesday October 2, 12:30 Speaker: Richard Korhammer, CEO of Lava Trading (www.lavatrading.com) Topic: Networks as Markets-- Why Exchanges are Becoming Virtual Richard Korhammer is the CEO of LavaTrading, one of the startup companies in New York diving into cross-market arbitrage. Their network links together all of the important market makers in ECNs and keeps track of all bids and offers. Buyers and sellers using the technology automatically get pointers to the best price possible. Traders with large blocks of stock do substantially better because Lava Trading will break up their block to match it with the best price available across all of the markets. This cross-market arbitrage improves liquidity for the market and makes it simpler for traders with large blocks of stock to wade into the marketplace without leaving a wake. In his talk, Korhammer will explore how fast networking and sophisticated servers can supplement and potentially replace the old fashioned stock exchange. Traders won't need to come to one place or one exchange to search for the best price because the network can constantly sort through all buyers and sellers. Korhammer believes that adding intelligence to the network and the servers supporting is more efficient than requiring traders to manually manage an otherwise complicated marketplace. Will these cross-exchange tools supplant the exchange? Will they eventually become the exchange? Will the disintermediation eventually make all trading a transparent event? Location: 11 West Mount Vernon Place, Baltimore, MD Directions: The Engineering Society lies in the shadow of Baltimore's Washington monument in the center of town. From downtown, take Charles St north to the monument. The Society is to the left on Monument Street. From the north, take 83 south to Maryland Avenue exit. Follow Maryland Avenue south until Monument Street. The Society is to the left. Or look at this map: http://maps.yahoo.com/py/maps.py?BFCat=&Pyt=Tmap&newFL=Use+Address+Below&add r=11+Mount+Vernon+Place&csz=Baltimore%2C+MD+21201&country=us&Get%07Map=Get+M ap Cost: $14 for a lunch buffet Questions: pcw at flyzone.com From pcw at flyzone.com Fri Sep 7 12:32:07 2001 From: pcw at flyzone.com (Peter Wayner) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 15:32:07 -0400 Subject: Baltimore Digital Commerce Society-- Korhammer on Lava Trading, Oct 2 Message-ID: [Hey Balto Digital Commerce Attendees. Welcome back from the long summer. Our first talk for the fall is scheduled for October 2n. These guys are building a very cool, cross-exchange tool. It constantly keeps track of the bids and asks on a number of exchanges letting you send your business to where the prices are best. It's fascinating to watch the screen update the quotes in real time. This kind of semi-automated, trading assistance is bound to become more and more prevalent. I think Lava Trading is doing some of the most interesting stuff around. So, come check it out if you can. Please circulate think. -Peter] Baltimore Digital Commerce Society Tuesday October 2, 12:30 Speaker: Richard Korhammer, CEO of Lava Trading (www.lavatrading.com) Topic: Networks as Markets-- Why Exchanges are Becoming Virtual Richard Korhammer is the CEO of LavaTrading, one of the startup companies in New York diving into cross-market arbitrage. Their network links together all of the important market makers in ECNs and keeps track of all bids and offers. Buyers and sellers using the technology automatically get pointers to the best price possible. Traders with large blocks of stock do substantially better because Lava Trading will break up their block to match it with the best price available across all of the markets. This cross-market arbitrage improves liquidity for the market and makes it simpler for traders with large blocks of stock to wade into the marketplace without leaving a wake. In his talk, Korhammer will explore how fast networking and sophisticated servers can supplement and potentially replace the old fashioned stock exchange. Traders won't need to come to one place or one exchange to search for the best price because the network can constantly sort through all buyers and sellers. Korhammer believes that adding intelligence to the network and the servers supporting is more efficient than requiring traders to manually manage an otherwise complicated marketplace. Will these cross-exchange tools supplant the exchange? Will they eventually become the exchange? Will the disintermediation eventually make all trading a transparent event? Location: 11 West Mount Vernon Place, Baltimore, MD Directions: The Engineering Society lies in the shadow of Baltimore's Washington monument in the center of town. From downtown, take Charles St north to the monument. The Society is to the left on Monument Street. From the north, take 83 south to Maryland Avenue exit. Follow Maryland Avenue south until Monument Street. The Society is to the left. Or look at this map: http://maps.yahoo.com/py/maps.py?BFCat=&Pyt=Tmap&newFL=Use+Address+Below&add r=11+Mount+Vernon+Place&csz=Baltimore%2C+MD+21201&country=us&Get%07Map=Get+M ap Cost: $14 for a lunch buffet To reserve your seat: write pcw at flyzone.com Questions: pcw at flyzone.com --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From support at adcritic.com Fri Sep 7 12:56:47 2001 From: support at adcritic.com (AdCritic.com Support) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 15:56:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Thanks for registering with AdCritic.com!! Message-ID: <200109071956.PAA94522@hot.adcritic.com> ======================== Welcome to AdCritic.com! ======================== Username: cypher34534 Thank you for registering with AdCritic.com!! In order to confirm your registration, please click the link below. This will complete your registration and you will be a full member of Adcritic.com. http://www.adcritic.com/login/register/validate/?auth=MTU0NDU2LUtxeTFJ Thank you, The AdCritic.com staff PS: Want to see our ads 10 to 50 times faster than you do now? Try our monthly subscription with full-screen ads and unlimited high-speed access. More info at http://www.adcritic.com/submissions/highspeed/ From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Fri Sep 7 16:37:02 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 16:37:02 -0700 Subject: US v Miller (was Re: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change Message-ID: <200109072337.f87Nb2Q77036@mailserver1.hushmail.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 523 bytes Desc: not available URL: From conference-info at corp.witi.com Fri Sep 7 16:46:54 2001 From: conference-info at corp.witi.com (2001 WITI Conference) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 16:46:54 -0700 Subject: 2001 WITI Boston Conference Message-ID: Dear Professionals: The WITI team would like to notify you of exciting WITI programs: - Annual Boston Professional Women's Summit & Expo (October 24 & 25) - Special Early Bird Offer (Deadline: September 21, 2001) - Plus: Executive Women's Forum (October 24, 2001) - Plus: WITI Invent Center Launch (October 24, 2001) - Leadership Xcellence Assessment Tools Now Available! http://witi.com Attend the Annual Professional Women's Summit & Expo October 24 & 25 - Boston, MA Presented by WITI (Women in Technology International) WITI's Professional Women's Summit & Expo is the country's largest premier conference for top level women who utilize technology in their businesses and professions. Why you should attend:  The summit offers you a two-day dynamic, accelerated program that provides you with the essential tools, opportunities, insights and connections to achieve your professional goals. Hear some of the most powerful women in the industry, such as: - Jessica Lipnack & Jeffrey Stamps, Ph.D., CEO and Chief Scientist of NetAge/Virtualteams - Isabel Maxwell, President Emeritus, Commtouch, Inc. - Dr. Ruth Simmons, President, Brown University Sessions include: - Women on Wall Street - Women Leaders in IT: Your Time is Now - Leading to Win: Thriving in a Time of RiskSmart Partnering - Positioning Your High Tech Company in the Global Marketplace - The Art of Negotiation: Lessons I Learned the Hard Way - Strategic Analysis for the Modern Workplace - and much, much more... Register before September 21 to receive a $200 discount off of the $975 at-the-door price! Early registration for a two-day pass is $775. WITI Members receive an additional $125 discount. To register, please call WITI at 1-800-334-9484 or register online at http://registration.witi.com/center/conferences/boston/regform.shtml WITI also Presents: WITI Invent Center Launch October 24, 2001 4:30 - 6:30 p.m. Join WITI and the 5 College Consortium (Smith, U. Mass., Mount Holyoke, Amherst, and Hampshire College) as they celebrate the launch of the first WITI Invent Center on the Smith College campus. This program is designed to increase women's advancement through technology in the university. You will have the opportunity to hear Dr. Ruth Simmons give the opening speech at the ceremony. Dr. Simmons is the recently appointed President of Brown University, the first African-American woman to head any top-ranked American college or university. Prior to her role at Brown, she assumed the presidency of Smith College in 1995. Under her leadership, Smith College announced the opening of the Engineering and Technology program From ravage at ssz.com Fri Sep 7 15:00:08 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 17:00:08 -0500 Subject: kuro5hin.org || Direct Democracy: A valid future? Message-ID: <3B994367.C52F5413@ssz.com> And who works?... http://www.Kuro5hin.org/story/2001/9/7/7425/32851 -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Fri Sep 7 16:27:05 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 18:27:05 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Baltimore Digital Commerce Society-- Korhammer on Lava Trading, Oct 2 (fwd) Message-ID: -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 17:24:14 -0400 From: "R. A. Hettinga" To: Digital Bearer Settlement List , dcsb at ai.mit.edu, cryptography at wasabisystems.com, coderpunks at toad.com, e$@vmeng.com Subject: Baltimore Digital Commerce Society-- Korhammer on Lava Trading, Oct 2 --- begin forwarded text From golfledger at THEGOLFLEDGER.ROI1.NET Fri Sep 7 15:40:34 2001 From: golfledger at THEGOLFLEDGER.ROI1.NET (Golf Ledger) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 18:40:34 -0400 Subject: September 07, 2001 Newsletter Message-ID: <200109072239.f87MdX431810@ak47.algebra.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 16578 bytes Desc: not available URL: From golfledger at THEGOLFLEDGER.ROI1.NET Fri Sep 7 15:40:34 2001 From: golfledger at THEGOLFLEDGER.ROI1.NET (Golf Ledger) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 18:40:34 -0400 Subject: September 07, 2001 Newsletter Message-ID: <200109072256.PAA04414@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 16578 bytes Desc: not available URL: From freematt at coil.com Fri Sep 7 16:22:14 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 19:22:14 -0400 Subject: View Video of Infocom Raid News Conference in Texas Message-ID: Source: Direct Submission Organization: CAIR Email: cair1 at ix.netcom.com Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 16:51:49 -0400 (EDT) Title: CAIR-NET: View Video of Infocom Raid News Conference in Texas TEXT: In the Name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful ----- AMERICAN MUSLIM NEWS BRIEFS - 9/7/2001 ----- HEADLINES: * VIEW VIDEO OF INFOCOM RAID NEWS CONFERENCE IN TEXAS * WIRE SERVICE COVERAGE OF MUSLIM REACTION TO INFOCOM RAID: 1) MUSLIM GROUPS PROTEST FBI RAID OF INTERNET BUSINESS SUSPECTED OF TERRORIST TIES (AP) 2) US MUSLIMS BLAST SEARCH OF MIDEAST INTERNET PROVIDER (AFP) 3) FBI DENIES BIAS AS US RAID SHUTS ARABIC WEB SITES (Reuters) * RACISM CAN MAKE YOU CRAZY (Globe and Mail) * REP. BERKLEY (D-NV) DENIES MAKING COMMENTS ATTRIBUTED TO HER IN TEL AVIV NEWSPAPER (Las Vegas Review-Journal) * PAUL FINDLEY APPEARS ON BOOK TV 9/8 * SHIN BET STILL TORTURES PALESTINIANS * PRO-PALESTINIAN POLITICAL CARTOON (Philadelphia Inquirer) * KILEY ATTACKS MURDOCH'S FRIENDSHIP WITH ISRAEL (Guardian) ----- VIEW VIDEO OF INFOCOM RAID NEWS CONFERENCE IN TEXAS To view the video of yesterday's conference by Muslim leaders outside Infocom's headquarters in Richardson, Texas, go to http://www.cair-net.org or http://www.islamicity.com/. Local media coverage improved dramatically following the news conference. NOTE: Many of Infocom's servers are now back online. ----- WIRE SERVICE COVERAGE OF MUSLIM REACTION TO INFOCOM RAID MUSLIM GROUPS PROTEST FBI RAID OF INTERNET BUSINESS SUSPECTED OF TERRORIST TIES By DAVID KOENIG, The Associated Press, 9/6/2001 As federal agents conducted a second day of searching an Internet company as part of an anti-terrorism campaign, Muslim leaders charged authorities acted on scant evidence and anti-Arab stereotypes... ...Mark Enoch, a lawyer hired by InfoCom after the raid began early Wednesday, said the company had no links to terrorist groups and was cooperating with the FBI, even helping agents navigate the computer system. A search warrant requested by federal authorities was sealed by U.S. Magistrate Judge Paul Stickney of Dallas, and agents outside Infocom's offices declined to comment on the investigation. InfoCom's Internet operations manager said agents cut off Internet service to the company's 500 clients... ...Nihad Awad, executive director of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, linked the raid with U.S. opposition to international efforts to criticize Israel's handling of the conflict with Palestinians. "We suspect that all these attempts are to please the Israeli government but not to protect the U.S. interests," Awad said. "Siding with Israel, a racist country and state, I think does not do us any good." Others viewed the raid broadly as the product of anti-Muslim bias. "We have deep concerns that this once again is an attempt to rush to judgment and to marginalize the American Muslim community simply because ... many of them are immigrants," said Mahdi Bray, political adviser to the Muslim Public Affairs Council. "There is a pattern of bias that often permeates all of these types of investigations." Bailey declined to say why authorities targeted InfoCom, but she denied any bias... --- US MUSLIMS BLAST SEARCH OF MIDEAST INTERNET PROVIDER Agence France-Presse, 9/07/2001 WASHINGTON, Sept 6 (AFP) - US Muslim leaders Thursday condemned a federal search at the Texas offices of a Middle East Internet service provider, calling it part of an "anti-Muslim witch hunt..." ...The search disrupted satellite television service in the United Arab Emirates, according to reports from Dubai. "American Muslims view yesterday's action as just one of a long list of attempts by the pro-Israel lobby to intimidate and silence all those who wish to see Palestinian Muslims and Christians free themselves of a brutal apartheid-like occupation," a coalition of nearly a dozen Muslim groups said in a statement. "We believe the genesis of this raid lies not in Washington, but in Tel Aviv." Among the groups voicing their discontent were the American Muslim Council, American Muslims for Jerusalem and the Council on American- Islamic Relations. One of InfoCom's clients was the Qatar-based Al-Jazeera satellite television network, the coalition said, a popular Arabic news outlet frequently criticized by Israel for its reporting on the situation in the Palestinian territories. --- FBI DENIES BIAS AS US RAID SHUTS ARABIC WEB SITES By Marcus Kabel, Reuters, 9/6/2001 DALLAS, Sept 6 (Reuters) - An 80-strong U.S. terrorism task force raided the Texas-based host of Arabic Web sites, including that of the Arab world's leading independent news channel, prompting charges on Thursday of an "anti- Muslim witchhunt." But the FBI, which took part in the raid on Wednesday at privately held InfoCom Corp., in the Dallas suburb of Richardson, denied any anti-Arab bias and said it was executing an unspecified federal search warrant... ...Several American Islamic groups condemned the search as "an anti-Muslim witchhunt promoted by the pro-Israel lobby in America," according to a statement from 10 organizations, including the Muslim Public Affairs Council. "We are deeply concerned that there is a pattern of stereotyping that permeates all these types of investigations. There is a marginalization of the American- Muslim population," Mahdi Bray of the Los Angeles-based council said at a news conference outside the closed InfoCom office. The FBI denied the raid was any kind of witchhunt. "We were executing a search warrant as part of a criminal investigation. It had nothing to do with anti-Islamic or anti-Palestinian or anti-Middle East issues or anything like that," said special agent Lori Bailey, spokeswoman for the Dallas FBI office... ----- RACISM CAN MAKE YOU CRAZY By Rick Salutin, Globe and Mail, 9/7/2001 http://theglobeandmail.com Search using the term "racism." ...Take the Mideast. For a Palestinian under occupation, any daily trip -- to shop, work or visit - can turn into a hell of delay, humiliation and possible death, in his homeland! It could drive any of us mad. Every case of Canadian road rage has less provocation. As for Israel, its behaviour sadly mirrors much of what was inflicted on Jews by others in the past. I don't consider this statement controversial. We know most abusers were abused. Their sense of justification is genuine..." ACTION REQUESTED: Contact Rick Salutin at rsalutin at globeandmail.ca to thank him for his courageous article. Please cc the Globe and Mail at raddis at globeandmail.ca and Canada at cair-net.org on all correspondence. ----- BERKLEY DENIES MAKING COMMENTS ATTRIBUTED TO HER IN TEL AVIV NEWSPAPER By TONY BATT, Las Vegas Review-Journal, 9/6/2001 http://www.lvrj.com/lvrj_home/2001/Sep-06-Thu-2001/news/16937403.html WASHINGTON -- Rep. Shelley Berkley, D-Nev., described Israel as "our country" during a meeting last week with a top Palestinian official and said Palestinians could leave if they didn't like living under Israeli control, according to a Tel Aviv newspaper columnist's account of a meeting last week including the lawmaker and a top Palestinian official. Berkley, who aides said has been receiving angry calls from constituents after a Muslim group started circulating the report, on Wednesday, denied making the comments. The column ran Tuesday in Ha'aretz, one of Israel's leading newspapers. "I think there obviously was a mistake in the translation," Berkley said. "There was no press at this meeting, and there were several inaccuracies in the story..." ...Written by Akiva Eldar, the column in Ha'aretz described an exchange at a meeting involving Berkley, other lawmakers, and Saeb Erekat, the chief Palestinian negotiator in talks with Israel. Eldar, a former Washington bureau chief for Ha'aretz, did not quote sources for the information. He could not be reached Wednesday night. "Berkley reprimanded Dr. Saeb Erekat for daring to use the term `occupation,' reminding him that `this is our country' and `we' won the war," Eldar wrote. The column went on to say Berkley rejected Erekat's suggestion that he should be given full civil rights by Israel. Berkley told him, the column said, that if the Palestinians don't like the present situation, she is not going to prevent them from leaving. The American Muslims for Jerusalem, a small Washington lobby group critical of Israel, issued a statement Tuesday criticizing Berkley for being "slavishly supportive of Israel." CONTACT: (As always, be firm, but POLITE.) The Honorable Shelley Berkley U.S. House of Representatives 439 Cannon House Office Building Washington, D.C. 20515-4708 TEL:(202) 225-5965 FAX: (202) 225-3119 Toll free: (877) 409-2488 ----- PAUL FINDLEY APPEARS ON BOOK TV Silent No More: Confronting America's False Images of Islam Saturday, September 8 at 8:55 pm and Sunday, September 9 at 10:00 am http://www.booktv.org/General/index.asp?segID=1701&schedID=81 Former Congressman Paul Findley (R-IL) discusses his book "Silent No More: Confronting America's False Images of Islam" before an audience at Barnes & Noble Bookseller in Springfield, Illinois. The book discusses how Muslims are perceived in America. The author asserts that most Americans believe Muslims to be fanatics or terrorists, which he describes as a false image of Islam. After the presentation, Mr. Findley answered questions from members of the audience. ----- SHIN BET STILL TORTURES PALESTINIANS By Moshe Reinfeld, Ha'aretz, 9/6/2001 A report issued Thursday by the Public Committee Against Torture in Israel says that the "defensive barrier" set up by the High Court of Justice two years ago, against the torture of Palestinian suspects during interrogation, is ineffective. The organization argues that the court left practical gaps in its ruling, which allow the Shin Bet security service to continue torturing prisoners by depriving them of sleep and by keeping them bound for long periods... ----- KILEY ATTACKS MURDOCH'S FRIENDSHIP WITH ISRAEL By Jason Deans, The Guardian (UK), 9/5/2001 http://media.guardian.co.uk/presspublishing/story/0,7495,547296,00.html Sam Kiley, the former Times Africa correspondent, has spoken out for the first time about why he quit the paper, blaming its allegedly pro-Israeli censorship of his reporting on the latest Middle East conflict. Mr Kiley said Times owner Rupert Murdoch's close friendship with Israeli prime minister Ariel Sharon, and heavy investment in Israel were the reasons behind his decision to resign... ----- PRO-PALESTINIAN POLITICAL CARTOON http://inq.philly.com/content/inquirer/2001/09/06/art/AUTH0906.htm ----- CAIR Council on American-Islamic Relations 453 New Jersey Avenue, S.E. Washington, D.C. 20003 Tel: 202-488-8787 Fax: 202-488-0833 Page: 202-490-5653 E-mail: cair1 at ix.netcom.com URL: http://www.cair-net.org ----- TO SUBSCRIBE: Join CAIR-NET by sending the message "subscribe cair-net" (without the quotation marks) to majordomo at list.cair-net.org. TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Leave CAIR-NET by sending the message "unsubscribe cair-net" (without the quotation marks) to majordomo at list.cair-net.org. NOTE: If you have difficulty unsubscribing, send a message to cair1 at ix.netcom.com with the subject line "Manual CAIR-NET Unsubscribe." ----- ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************** From a3495 at cotse.com Fri Sep 7 16:27:40 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 19:27:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Supergenius: The Mega-Worlds of Herman Kahn Message-ID: Supergenius: The Mega-Worlds of Herman Kahn by B. Bruce-Briggs North American Policy Press. 490 pp. Reviewed by Dan Seligman ...somehow or other, Herman Kahn (1922-83) has become a forgotten figure. But can that really be? Kahn was a "policy intellectual" of unquestioned genius and dazzling quotability who was very much onstage and telling the world what to think about its major problems for something like a quarter- century. He had also helped develop the hydrogen bomb, and later came up with the idea for a Doomsday Machine, immortalized, though wrenched out of context, in Stanley Kubricks 1963 movie wherein the machines inventor is called Dr. Strangelove. He was the author or coauthor of hundreds of newspaper and magazine articles and of sixteen books, every one of which received reviews that were respectful even when hostile. And, as Bruce- Briggs states correctly, he had thousands of "chums" (I am identified as one of them), who viewed his talents with awe and found his personality magical, somehow combining elements of a high-speed computer, an eager-to- please four-year-old child, a borscht-belt comic, and Santa Claus. Early in his career, as a defense analyst at the RAND Corporation, Kahns briefingsthese were didactic lectures, densely factual and logically powerful but still informal, with endless asides, many of them hilarious, and much back-and-forth with the audiencewere a huge hit with the military. Later, when he was running the Hudson Institute, the think tank he founded in 1961, his subject matter expanded in all directions, and his public appearances attracted a wider following. He spoke without notes, typically for a couple of hours, and had his audiences alternately entranced and convulsed with laughter. Supergenius does a good job of capturing the spirit of these occasions, and also confirms what many long suspected: that much of what Kahn "wrote" was made up of edited transcripts of his talks. Bruce-Briggs, who had a good inside view of Kahn during several professional stints at Hudson, and was his co-author in a 1972 volume called Things to Come, has organized his book more or less chronologically but with an effort to segment particular dimensions of Kahns life. The somewhat quirky result is 67 sections, typically five or six pages in length, with headings like "The Soldier," "The Systems Analyst," "The Celebrity," "The Nipponologist," "The Neoconservative." (Actually, for most of his life Kahn was rather nonideological.) Bruce-Briggs is on balance strongly pro-Kahn, but, as indicated in some of the headings ("The Huckster," "The Kibitzer"), less than starry-eyed. TO THINK about Herman Kahn is to find yourself amazed about many matters, but three major themes stand out: his intelligence; his long-running, close- to-single-handed effort to make Americans think straight about thermonuclear war; and his remarkably successful forays into "futurology." A possible fourth entry would be his weight. As a young man, Kahn was merely stocky, but in the years of his greatest fame he kept putting on pounds, and must have been close to 375 when he died, quite suddenly, of a stroke. The weight seems to have induced symptoms of narcolepsy, and Supergenius has some appalling accounts of Kahn falling asleep and snoring uncontrollably in business meetings during his last few years (but still, somehow, managing to take in a lot of what was being said). Kahns career trajectory reflected the fact that he was smarterusually a lot smarterthan just about everyone else in his life. His parents were ambitious immigrants from Bialystok, but otherwise offered no discernible clues to the genetic basis of his off-the-charts braininess. As a young child, he was a speed-reader who needed (and created) multiple identities so that he could have more library cards and take out more books. A high- school know-it-all, he was once asked to read aloud a famous Latin oration, took a brief glance at the passage, then recited it without the book and offered to do it again, backwards. Drafted in 1943, Kahn was identified as a prodigy after he took the Armed Forces Qualification Test and was parked in a military "brain bank" in West Virginia. There he was made to study electrical engineering before being transferred to the signal corps and assigned to the China-Burma-India theater. After the war, his friend Sam Cohen (later famous as the main developer and promoter of the neutron bomb), successfully recruited him into RAND, and his career as a defense analyst unfolded rapidly. His early fame was based mainly on his devastating critique of U.S. military strategy in the thermonuclear age. His core objective, elaborated in On Thermonuclear War (1960) and again in Thinking about the Unthinkable (1962), was to make his countrymen understand that existing doctrine was disastrous. Its assumptions, based on the idea of a "balance of terror," were embodied in a nightmare scenario in which, as Kahn put it, somebody, presumably a Russian, "pushed all the buttons and then walked away from the table." The only thing deterring the Russians from such a massive and unrestrained attack was, supposedly, the realization that it would be matched in kindwhich would mean in turn that both countries would have committed suicide. That was the theory. Although Stanley Kubrick chose not to read him properly, Kahns Doomsday Machinea device set to blow up the planet automatically any time your country was attacked with nuclear weaponswas presented by him not as a rational strategy but as a caricature of this irrational posture. To tell the world that you equated nuclear weapons with national suicide was, he wrote, to invite blackmailand, given the Soviet superiority in conventional arms, it left us with very few military options in the face of aggressive behavior short of an attack on the United States. The point of all this thinking about the unthinkable was to find serious alternatives to annihilation and surrender. Kahn argued that the alternatives were there. Any thermonuclear war would almost certainly begin as a limited and not as an "all-out" attack, for the simple reason that the attacker would want the other side to have incentives for restraint. With that in mind, Kahn generated an avalanche of data to demonstrate that civil defense and other damage-limiting measures could leave our country still viable even after most imaginable thermonuclear wars. And he also argued that serious planning for such warsincluding a "pre-attack mobilization base," some ballistic-missile defense, and what he called a "not incredible first-strike capability"would itself serve as a deterrent to provocative behavior, and leave us less susceptible to blackmail. Although Kahn was not alone in making this casehis RAND colleague Albert Wohlstetter was a major allythere is no doubt that his briefings and studies had a major impact on the Pentagons thinking in the 50s and 60s. AT ITS founding, the Hudson Institute was defense-oriented, and in the late 60s it was still receiving contracts for Vietnam-related research. Kahn was deeply involved in the Pentagons partially successful "Vietnamization" program, i.e., the effort to pacify the countryside and build up the South Vietnamese armed forces while preparing for American withdrawal. But by this time he and Hudson had also been drawn into a broad range of social- policy issues, which gradually coalesced into a discipline that came to be known as "futurology" (a term he disliked, even as he came to be identified as its prime exemplar). There is a mystery at the heart of this discipline. (There are also disagreements about whether it deserves the label "discipline.") The threshold question is whether it represents merely informed speculation about the future or a serious effort at forecasting. Kahn was clear about the need for the latter in the area of military technology, but in thinking about long-term social change, his approach seems much more hedged. One major Kahn exercise in futurology was The Year 2000, written with Anthony J. Wiener and published in 1967. (The analysis was Kahns, the writing was Wieners.) The authors warned readers up front that the "scenarios" being put forward should be taken only as "imaginative simulations of what might happen," and the subtitle identifies the study as "a framework for speculation." But I have trouble with this. As I read The Year 2000, the authors repeatedly leave their cautions in the dust to argue that some scenarios are, in fact, resoundingly plausible. An intriguing example is their argument for a continuing explosion in computer power and their rejection of the then-popular notion that such power was already approaching its physical limits. It is quite possible, they wrote, that computer capabilities would continue expanding by "a factor of ten every several years"a judgment consistent with Moores Law, which posits a doubling every 18 months or so. They also stated that "there will probably be computer consoles in every home," a projection that overstates todays reality even while managing to look remarkably prescient for 1967. I do not know how to construct a box score, but the "forecasts" in The Year 2000 look pretty good to me. One big error, quite unsurprising in itself, was to assume the durability of the Soviet Union, and the authors also possibly overrated the long-term dynamism of the Japanese economy (although it had close to twenty pretty good years after they wrote). But they were seldom misleading about other important matters. Their projection put year- 2000 world population around 6 billion, which appears to be just about right, and one of their preferred scenarios for U.S. gross national product per capita (they offer a couple of choices) works out to about $37,500 in todays dollarsalso right. The book foresaw relative peace and prosperity for the "older nations"i.e., Europe, the U.S. and Canada, and the Pacific Rim countries. It also bought wholeheartedly into the idea of a "post- industrial society," then being broached by Daniel Bell and others and now plainly surrounding us. Kahns record in futurology was also pretty good in later years. In 1980, in the face of headlines projecting oil prices of $60 a barrel or more, Kahn and William M. Brown, Hudsons energy economist, forecast that prices would instead collapse, which they did (from $40 a barrel to less than $20). With marvelous timing, Kahn produced a 1982 book about the U.S. economy called The Coming Boom. Is he really a forgotten figure today? I hope not. But it is true that the themes he was most associated with are themselves offstage. For better or worse, thermonuclear war has pretty much receded from public consciousness. And futurologylong-term, broad-gauge social forecastingseems unimaginably difficult in a world featuring successive stunners in biotechnology. Still, I would hate to think that the man who put "thinking about the unthinkable" into the public dialogue has fallen prey to a different syndrome: forgetting the unforgettable. At a minimum, he deserves the $15 download. * To order the book, you send a check or money order to North American Policy Press, Box 26, Idaville, PA 17337. For $15, you get the right to download it on your computer; for $20, you get three 31/2-inch diskettes incorporating the text; and for $40, you get a bound copy of the 490-page printout, of which about 100 pages are source notes. From freematt at coil.com Fri Sep 7 16:46:46 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 19:46:46 -0400 Subject: Your Face Is Not a Bar Code: Arguments Against Automatic Face Recognition in Public Places Message-ID: From mail07211 at mweb.com.cn Fri Sep 7 20:55:30 2001 From: mail07211 at mweb.com.cn (Darin) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 20:55:30 Subject: FREE CELL PHONE, FREE MEMBERSHIP, FREE SOFTWARE Message-ID: YOUR FREE MEMBERSHIP!! Plus get a Free Cell Phone and Free Computer Software To Help YOU Make MORE Money !! 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Lock in Your Position Today and we'll also give you promotional software that will increase traffic to ANY web site !! See for Yourself ! Grab your ID Here ! DON"T MISS OUT !! http://www.freewebco.net/freemem/ or http://www.freewebhostingcentral.cc/freemem --------------------------------------------------------- This is a one time mailing and you will not be contacted again and though it is not necessary to request removal, you may do so by sending an email to: mailto:mail0719 at btamail.net.cn?subject=Please_Remove_Bizopp From declan at well.com Fri Sep 7 18:22:25 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 21:22:25 -0400 Subject: FC: Sen. Hollings plans to introduce DMCA sequel: The SSSCA Message-ID: Text of SSSCA draft bill: http://www.politechbot.com/docs/hollings.090701.html Politech archive on DMCA: http://www.politechbot.com/cgi-bin/politech.cgi?name=dmca --- http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,46655,00.html New Copyright Bill Heading to DC By Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com) 4:19 p.m. Sep. 7, 2001 PDT WASHINGTON -- Music and record industry lobbyists are quietly readying an all-out assault on Congress this fall in hopes of dramatically rewriting copyright laws. With the help of Fritz Hollings (D-S.C.), the powerful chairman of the Senate Commerce committee, they hope to embed copy-protection controls in nearly all consumer electronic devices and PCs. All types of digital content, including music, video and e-books, are covered. The Security Systems Standards and Certification Act (SSSCA), scheduled to be introduced by Hollings, backs up this requirement with teeth: It would be a civil offense to create or sell any kind of computer equipment that "does not include and utilize certified security technologies" approved by the federal government. It also creates new federal felonies, punishable by five years in prison and fines of up to $500,000. Anyone who distributes copyrighted material with "security measures" disabled or has a network-attached computer that disables copy protection is covered. Hollings' draft bill, which Wired News obtained on Friday, represents the next round of the ongoing legal tussle between content holders and their opponents, including librarians, programmers and open-source advocates. [...] ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. Declan McCullagh's photographs are at http://www.mccullagh.org/ To subscribe to Politech: http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- End forwarded message ----- From declan at well.com Fri Sep 7 18:24:51 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 21:24:51 -0400 Subject: FC: Text of draft Security Systems Standards and Certification Act Message-ID: Wired News article on SSSCA: http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,46655,00.html --- http://www.politechbot.com/docs/hollings.090701.html Text of Security Systems Standards and Certification Act Sponsors: Sen. Fritz Hollings (D-S.C.), chairman of the Senate Commerce committee, and Sen. Ted Stevens (R-Alaska). Draft dated August 6, 2001. This bill has not been introduced as of September 7, 2001. Keystroked by Declan McCullagh, all typos his. Comments in [brackets] are his. The bill is 19 pages long; much of the text is summarized and placed in brackets. _________________________________________________________________ Title I -- Security System Standards Sec. 101: Prohibition of Certain Devices (a) In General -- It is unlawful to manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide or otherwise traffic in any interactive digital device that does not include and utilize certified security technologies that adhere to the security system standards adopted under section 104. (b) Exception -- Subsection (a) does not apply to the offer for sale or provision of, or other trafficking in, any previously-owned interactive digital device, if such device was legally manufactured or imported, and sold, prior to the effective date of regulations adopted under section 104 and not subsequently modified in violation of subsection (a) or 103(a). Sec. 102: Preservation of the Integrity of Security An interactive computer service shall store and transmit with integrity any security measure associated with certified security techologies that is used in connection with copyrighted material or other protected content such service transmits or stores. Sec. 103: Prohibited Acts (a) Removal or Alteration of Security -- No person may -- (1) remove or alter any certified security technology in an interactive digital device; or (2) transmit or make available to the public any copyrighted material or other protected content where the security measure associated with a certified security technology has been removed or altered. [Summary: Personal TV/cable/satellite time-shifting copies normally must be allowed by certified security technologies] Sec. 104: Adoption of Security System Standards [Summary: The private sector has 12 months to agree on a standard, or the Secretary of Commerce will step in. Industry groups that can participate: "representatives of interactive digital device manufacturers and representatives of copyright owners." If industry can agree, the secretary will turn their standard into a regulation; if not, normal government processes apply and NTIA takes the lead. The standard can be later modified. The secretary must certify technologies that adhere to those standards. Also: "The secretary shall certify only those conforming technologies that are available for licensing on reasonable and nondiscriminatory terms." FACA, a federal sunshine law, does not apply, and an antitrust exemption is included.] Sec. 108: Enforcement The provisions of section 1203 and 1204 of title 17, United States Code, shall apply to any violation of this title as if -- (1) a violation of section 101 or 103(a)(1) of this Act were a violation of section 1201 of title 17, United States Code; and (2) a violation of section 102 or section 103(a)(2) of this Act were a violation of section 1202 of that title. Sec. 109. Definitions In this title: (1) Certified security technology -- The term "certified security technology" means a security technology certified by the Secretary of Commerce under section 105. (2) Interactive computer service -- The term "interactive computer service" has the meaning given that term in section 230(f) of the Communications Act of 1984 (47 U.S.C. 230(f)). [Note: According to 47 U.S.C. 230(f), an "interactive computer service" means "any information service, system, or access software provider that provides or enables computer access by multiple users to a computer server, including specifically a service or system that provides access to the Internet and such systems operated or services offered by libraries or educational institutions."] (3) Interactive digital device -- The term "interactive digital device" means "any machine, device, product, software, or technology, whether or not included with or as part of some other machine, device, product, software, or technology, that is designed, marketed or used for the primary purpose of, and that is capable of, storing, retrieving, processing, performing, transmitting, receiving, or copying information in digital form." (4) Secretary -- The term "Secretary" means the Secretary of Commerce [Takes effect at the date of enactment, except for sections that wait for federal standard.] Title II -- Internet Security Initiatives [Summary: Creates 25-member federal "Computer Security Partnership Council." Funds NIST computer security program at $50 million starting in FY2001, increasing by $10 million a year through FY2006. Funds computer security training program starting at $15 million in FY2001. Creates federal "computer security awards." Requires NIST to encourage P3P and similar privacy standards] _________________________________________________________________ Penalties summarized (by Declan): Criminal penalties apply to violations of sec. 102 or 103(a)(2). That includes the "interactive computer service shall store and transmit" without removal section, and the distribute "any copyrighted material or other protected content where the security measure associated with a certified security technology has been removed or altered." The criminal penalties are: "(1) shall be fined not more than $500,000 or imprisoned for not more than 5 years, or both, for the first offense; and (2) shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned for not more than 10 years, or both, for any subsequent offense." Only someone who violates the law "willfully and for purposes of commercial advantage or private financial gain" can be convicted. Civil penalties apply to violations of sec. 101 or 103(a)(1). That includes the section talking about how it's unlawful to make systems without security measures, and how nobody may "remove or alter any certified security technology in an interactive digital device." The civil penalties include injunctions in federal court, actual damages, and statutory damages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. Declan McCullagh's photographs are at http://www.mccullagh.org/ To subscribe to Politech: http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- End forwarded message ----- From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Fri Sep 7 21:30:50 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 21:30:50 -0700 Subject: Sen. Hollings plans to introduce DMCA sequel: The SSSCA Message-ID: <200109080430.f884UoW14385@mailserver1.hushmail.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 780 bytes Desc: not available URL: From declan at well.com Fri Sep 7 18:51:53 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 21:51:53 -0400 Subject: Sen. Hollings plans to introduce DMCA sequel: The SSSCA Message-ID: <20010907215153.F32575@cluebot.com> ----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh ----- From declan at well.com Fri Sep 7 18:52:12 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 21:52:12 -0400 Subject: Text of draft Security Systems Standards and Certification Act Message-ID: <20010907215212.G32575@cluebot.com> ----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh ----- From cypherpunks at toad.com Fri Sep 7 22:34:54 2001 From: cypherpunks at toad.com (cypherpunks at toad.com) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 22:34:54 Subject: Taboox Extreme - Adults Only Time:10:34:54 PM Message-ID: <200109071512.IAA03326@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 719 bytes Desc: not available URL: From die at die.com Fri Sep 7 19:43:06 2001 From: die at die.com (Dave Emery) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 22:43:06 -0400 Subject: Frenchalon.... Message-ID: <20010907224306.D20890@die.com> Paris Weekly Details French Electronic 'Espionnage' Abilities EUP20010406000153 Paris Le Nouvel Observateur (Internet Version-WWW) in French 05 Apr 01 [Article by Vincent Jauvert: "Espionage -- How France Listens to the Whole World"] [FBIS Translated Text] It is one of the largest tapping centers in the world. At this secret base protected by watchtowers, police dogs and electrified barbed wire, 13 immense parabolic antennas spy day and night on all the international communications transiting through the satellites they monitor. Where is this base whose photo Le Nouvel Observateur has published here? In the United States? In Russia? No, in the Perigord region, on the Domme plateau, next to Sarlat airport. The site is officially (and modestly) referred to as the "radio center." Here, the French spy service, the DGSE [General Directorate for External Security], monitors hundreds of thousands -- millions? -- of telephone calls, e-mails, files, and faxes on a daily basis. This is the main site for the French Republic's "big ears." It is not the only one. Like the United States and the English- speaking countries with close ties to it, France has over the past ten years set up a global interception network. Le Nouvel Observateur can confirm the existence -- and publish photos -- of three other DGSE "satellite" tapping bases. One -- code- named "Fregate" -- is hidden in the Guyanese forest, at the heart of the Kourou space center. The other, completed in 1998, is attached to the side of the Dziani Dzaha crater on the French island of Mayotte in the Indian Ocean. Both are managed jointly with the BND (Bundesnachrichtendienst), the German secret service. The third center is located in the western suburbs of Paris, on the Orgeval plateau, at Alluets-le-Roi. A total of about 30 antennas "cover" nearly the entire globe, with the exception of the Siberian North and a part of the Pacific. There will soon be other stations. Expanding its "satellite" tapping network is one of the DGSE's "priorities," the rapporteur for the 2001 defense budget, Jean-Michel Boucheron, writes. The French secret service has more resources available every year for this purpose. A new station is being built on the Albion plateau, where nuclear missiles were stored before the silos were dismantled; a fifth is planned for the Tontouta naval air base in New Caledonia. Of course, this network is -- and will remain -- much less powerful and efficient than the US system on which it is modeled, one which has often been discussed in recent months and is commonly referred to as "Echelon." The American NSA [National Security Agency] is 30 times richer than its French counterpart, the technical directorate of the DGSE. The former employs 38,000 people, the latter 1,600. The smaller Frenchelon," as the Americans and their partners call it, is no less of a threat to privacy. Including that of the French. Here is why: When they are transmitted by one of the satellites monitored by the Domme, Kourou, or Mayotte bases, our communications with other countries or the DOM-TOM [French Overseas Dominions and Territories] may be intercepted, copied, and disseminated by the DGSE, without any monitoring commission having any say in the matter. None! A situation that is unique in the West. Every democratic country that has equipped itself with satellite tapping services has set up safeguards -- laws and monitoring bodies -- to protect its citizens from the curiosity of the "big ears." Every one, led by Germany and the United States. But not France. Nonetheless, our country has been spying on communications satellites for 30 years. The SDECE [Foreign Intelligence and Counterintelligence Service] set up its first parabolic antenna at Domme, at the site of a small radio interception center, in 1974. The antenna measured 25 centimeters in diameter and still exists. Another followed soon afterwards. "At the beginning, there were only a few satellites, the Intelsats," explains a veteran of the technical directorate. "We were able to 'suck up' a large portion of international traffic." However, in 1980, as the explosion in global telephony began, more and more satellites were put into orbit: Eutelsat, Molniya, Inmarsat, Panamsat, Arabsat. "We were quickly overwhelmed," recounts a former senior official. "The Domme center found itself under-equipped, ridiculous -- and we at the DGSE were a laughingstock for our American and British colleagues." In 1984, the head of the secret service, Admiral Lacoste, pressed Francois Mitterrand: "We need another interception station." France, he claimed, had an ideal site for this type of operation: the Kourou space center. Ideal? It was located very near the Equator, that is, in the best possible spot for listening in on communications satellites, nearly all of which are geostationary. The base would be located a few kilometers from the Ariane launching pad, meaning that its antennas would not attract attention. And moreover, economic espionage was the French secret service's new priority, and the United States its main target. And the satellites "covering" the United States were in orbit precisely above Guyana. To share the costs and reinforce the Franco-German alliance, Lacoste proposed bringing the BND into the adventure. The joint effort would be all the easier, the admiral explained, because the two services were already working together closely in interception stations in West Berlin and elsewhere in the FRG. The president gave the go-ahead in late 1984. The Rainbow Warrior [Greenpeace ship sunk by the DGSE in New Zealand] scandal, which arose a few months later, delayed the operation. The "Fregate" base would be inaugurated secretly in 1990 by Claude Silberzahn, the new director of the DGSE, and his German counterpart. Silberzahn wanted to go even farther. In his view, to reclaim its place among the major players, the DGSE needed new stations. The Gulf War gave him new arguments. American spies' technical exploits in Iraq were breathtaking. Francois Mitterrand and Prime Minister Michel Rocard were convinced. Silberzahn was authorized to launch a wide-ranging ten-year investment plan. He modernized the Domme center, bought a Cray supercomputer, and had the first parabolic antennas installed at Alluets-le-Roi, at a base previously reserved for the interception of radio waves. Finally, with the BND, he launched the site on Mayotte. This French territory in the Comoros archipelago is also close to the Equator. The tapping center would be located on Petite-Terre, a miniscule island where the Foreign Legion already had a base. From Mayotte, the DGSE's technical directorate could better "cover" Africa, the Middle East, and Asia, the up-and-coming continent. Completing the project would take five years. Sordid stories of cheated-on husbands are said to have slowed down the work. Today, the Republic's "big ears" have, as we have already said, 30 antennas on three continents. These mobile antennas can change direction several times a day, depending on the schedule or objectives of the service. All countries are subject to tapping, even allies. Member countries of the European Union too? "Of course," says the official. "Thanks to these satellites, we can spy on everyone where they live. No crazy plots, no risk of diplomatic incidents. This is why we invested so much." Which satellites are priority targets? "The ones that can provide us with the most political and economic information," says an expert. The Inmarsats, for example. Thanks to these satellites, anyone can telephone or send an e-mail or fax to (almost) anywhere on earth. All it takes is a little suitcase weighing two kilos. At its beginnings in 1982, subscribers to this service were mainly professional sailors and oil companies. Then the customer base expanded to include wealthy yachtsmen. "What a windfall for economic espionage! You cannot imagine the things these businessmen say 'in clear' over their boat telephones," a specialist explains. "They think they are safe in the middle of the ocean. They talk about contracts, projects, discoveries." And that is not all. The Inmarsat company has signed contracts with most major airlines and 650 business aircraft. When a passenger makes a telephone call in flight, it transits via one of these satellites ... to the satisfaction of the "big ears." Inmarsat is also used on the ground, most often in the earth's "hot spots," where telephone equipment is poor. The company has a total of 200,000 subscribers: journalists, diplomats, international civil servants, NGO officials, etc. "No very powerful computer is necessary to spy on this choice clientele," says an expert. "A maximum of 2,000 messages pass through an Inmarsat satellite simultaneously. This is ten to 50 times fewer than for the others." The others are the giants of global telephony: Intelsat, Eutelsat, PanAmSat. Several billion messages from every continent transit via these satellites every day. "It is impossible to ignore them," says an expert, "but difficult to process them as a whole. We have to choose the segments of the beam that interest us." And in particular, to identify the channels leased by the military, diplomats, or companies. Some companies use a new, inexpensive service known as VSAT: This network enables them to keep all their establishments throughout the world connected on a permanent basis. In Domme and Kourou, the DGSE "sucks up" traffic from Intelsat 801, which provides thousands of VSAT links between America and Europe. The big satellites also transmit the Internet. They have become highways -- backbones -- for the Web. Says one specialist, "10 percent of the traffic passes through them. This is not much, but we can intercept this 10 percent: The rest, which transits via optic fiber cables, is something else." Staff at the Mayotte center are impatiently awaiting the new Intelsat 902, which within a few months will be furnishing "backbones" in Africa, in Asia, and part of Russia. It will be positioned at 62 degrees east, just above the French island in the Indian Ocean. Other types of satellites targeted: Regional satellites, which "cover" only a portion of the planet. Like the Arabsats for the Middle East and North Africa. "Ah, the Arabsats!" sighs a former listener." "The information they provided us in the 1980s! On Qadafi during the Chad conflict or on Israel during the invasion of South Lebanon." Finally, there are the national satellites. Some countries are too poor and too large to set up a network of telephone cables throughout their territory. For internal communications, they use satellites: the Raduga in Russia, the Mabuhay in the Philippines, or the Dong Fang Hong in China. But the increase in the number of satellite operators -- there are more than 100 today! -- poses a problem for the DGSE. "Each one codes its beam and does not make the code for deciphering it public," says a former official. Obtaining the key requires all the secret service's resources. "Several methods exist, not all of them 'clean'," the expert continues. "You can negotiate with the operator. You say: 'France will give you part of its international traffic; in exchange, you give us this confidential protocol'." Another technique: "Bribe a company executive or promise him a medal." Yet another: "If you learn that a foreign secret service has this software, trade it for something else." You can also discreetly enter the operator's facility and steal the precious diskette. "The DGSE has a division that is very good at this type of burglary," says the expert. There remains the homemade solution: Discover the code yourself. "But that can take a long time. In the meantime, you miss a lot of things." For several months, one satellite has been a particular thorn in the side of French secret service engineers. It is Thuraya, launched last October by an Abu Dhabi company that offered its subscribers total coverage of mobile telephony in the Arab world. Its service will be operational in April. Its customers: senior Syrian officials, Libyan businessmen, Egyptian military officers. So many targets for the DGSE. "There is a catch," says the expert. "The Emirates are financing the operation, but Hughes, the American aerospace giant, is managing the system. And as concerns codes for the beam, Hughes knows a whole range of them. We have not yet found a solution." With greater or lesser difficulty, dozens of beams are thus sucked up every day by the DGSE's parabolic antennas. What happens afterwards? In cellars at the bases of these antennas, technicians and operators with "defense secrecy" clearance work in air- conditioned computer rooms. Grouped into day and night teams, some 200 work at Domme and Alluets-le-Roi, 40 or so at Mayotte and Kourou. The technicians scurry around in front of electronic control panels. They control the powerful equipment (amplifiers, demodulators, analyzers, decoders) that transforms satellite beams into faxes, e-mail, files, or voice messages. Their primary concern: deciphering encrypted communications, which is becoming more and more difficult. The operators, meanwhile, are seated in front of computer consoles. They check the automatic sorting of traffic. Only a few thousand intercepted messages reach secret service HQ on Boulevard Mortier in Paris each day. They are sent by optical fibers or protected radio links. The rest, the great majority, are thrown into an electronic trashcan. Selection is conducted on the basis of a dictionary of addresses and key words. "Addresses?" These are telephone numbers and e-mail addresses that the DGSE monitors constantly. Those of embassies, ministries, international organizations, NGOs, multinational companies -- the computer of the "big ears" holds several thousand from all over the world. When one of these addresses appears in the beam of a satellite being spied on, the communication is automatically recorded and sent to Paris. This type of surveillance has a name in tapping jargon: "routine." Key words? Another method of filtering flows of data. "A key word can be a proper name, a nickname, a chemical formula, a slang term, or an acronym," an expert explains. "We enter them into a file and wait." When one of these words appears, the computer goes into reverse and records the communication from the beginning. At the DGSE, this practice is known as "standby" or "trawling." "For e-mails, this computer sorting is very efficient," says another specialist. He adds: "Given the computers' capacities, we can in this way filter several million electronic messages a minute. A good search engine is all it takes. We need simply adapt it to our needs." It seems highly like that the DGSE uses the search tool developed by Lexiquest, a French company. When it comes to faxes, the sorting process is less efficient. Experts estimate the success rate at no more than 60 percent. Why so many failures? Because the computer does not "read" the fax directly. It must first be converted into bits by a character recognition program. If this phase is disrupted by transfer problems or illegible handwriting, the retranscribed fax will not make sense. It is lost to the "big ears." Despite these difficulties, the DGSE has always been one of the best spy services as concerns automatic processing of faxes -- hence its success in economic espionage. The situation is entirely different as regards speech. The DGSE has not developed techniques as effective as those of the NSA or Israel's Mossad. One expert confides, "Contrary to popular belief, it is very difficult to teach a computer to catch key words spoken during a telephone conversation 'on the fly'." Explanation: "Some people speak quickly, others slowly, some stammer, others have an accent. Result: The failure rate is very high." The French service is studying another sorting method that the Americans and Israelis have already developed: automatic transcription. The computer transcribes the entire telephone conversation, then a search engine finds the key words in the file that has thus been constituted. "Strange as it may seem, it is simpler to proceed like this." The Defense Ministry has just asked the best French speech processing laboratory, the Limsi in Orsay, to develop software for this purpose. After sorting comes listening. At the DGSE, several hundred people -- 300, 500? -- spend their days wearing headphones. "Keeping in mind that a good professional can process 50 to 100 conversations a day, you do the math!" says a veteran. The total is more than 15,000 a day or at least 5 million a year. Is the game worth the candle? This mass of information -- these millions of intercepted conversations, e-mails, or faxes -- is it really useful? The unanimous opinion is that "pearls," bits of secret information worthy of being transmitted to levels as high as that of the president of the Republic, are very rare. "A few dozen in the space of 20 years," says the former senior official. "And even then..." There were the cases, already cited, of Qadafi and Israel in the 1980s. Later, instructions for voting in the UN Security Council were intercepted. Recently, recordings of senior Serbian dignitaries have been transmitted to the Elysee [president's residence]. In fact, the real "gems" have other clients: several large French industrial groups. For two decades, the DGSE has been working in symbiosis with some 15 private or public firms. Between spies and bosses, it is a matter of give and take. The former provide economic and technological intelligence (the DGSE's specialized research service employs about 50 people). The latter furnish cover stories for agents on missions abroad. Former DGSE staffers who have been recruited by the firms involved serve as liaisons. At their former employer's HQ on Boulevard Mortier, they regularly take delivery of copies of faxes, e-mails, or draft contracts intercepted by tapping stations. The yield is sometimes excellent. "We often receive thanks from bosses," says the senior official. In 1998, the "big ears" enabled the French industrialists concerned to follow developments in a set of crucial negotiations on the merger -- which fell through in the end -- of German aerospace manufacturer Dasa and its British counterpart, British Aerospace. But there are not just "pearls," far from it. There is the rest of the work, the everyday routine, these thousands of reports of interceptions, "raw" reports as they are referred to at the DGSE, which pile up in the analysis department and are not always read. "For one good piece of information, there is so much useless bla-bla," says a secret service manager. "I wonder if all this is worth it." Many would prefer to see the DGSE invest in human intelligence services rather than technical systems. "With the fortunes we spend every year, we could set up so many agents abroad. After all, that is our real job." Threat to privacy? Without a doubt. Some of the millions of communications tapped could be yours. The risk is even higher if you call a region with few cable connections, like Africa, Russia, or the DOM-TOMs. Nothing prohibits the DGSE from intercepting your conversations or e-mails if they are transmitted by satellite. Worse, this type of espionage is implicitly authorized by a 1991 law establishing the Commission on Monitoring of Wiretaps. Article 20 of this law indeed stipulates that it is not within the powers of this new commission to monitor "measures taken by the public authorities to (...) monitor (...) transmissions via hertzian channels [Le Nouvel Observateur editor's note: That is, via the airwaves]." In other words, the body may monitor everything except "satellite" taps. "This exception was demanded by the highest state authorities," confides a former advisor to then Defense Minister Pierre Joxe. "Why? You may remember that at that time, the DGSE was launching a wide-ranging plan to modernize its 'big ears.' Compromising it was out of the question." A former Elysee staffer: "We wanted to give the secret service a free hand, not enclose it in a quota of authorized taps." The members of parliament could not make head nor tail of it. They should have been more curious. They would have learned that many democratic countries had already rigorously regulated the activities of their "big ears." In Germany, eight independent experts appointed by the parliament have monitored the BND's wiretapping activities since 1968; they constitute the "G10" commission. They have considerable power. They can interrogate all employees of the BND and view the entire tap production process. "The objective: to protect Germans' privacy," according to Professor Claus Arndt, who served on this commission from 1968 to 1999. When, during random sorting, the name of a German citizen or company appears, the BND must erase it, barring the express consent of the commission. "By the same token," says Professor Arndt, "the secret service must submit the entire list of key words it intends to use. It is not allowed to include the name of a German." By next June, a law should allow super-inspectors to visit any of the German secret service's sites, including the Kourou station. If France refuses to allow this, the president of the commission could call for the BND's withdrawal from the Guyanese base. In Australia, the "big ears" are under the surveillance of an inspector general designated by the government. He has the power to verify that the DSD, the espionage service, applies highly restrictive laws. For example, any information about an Australian collected by tapping stations must be destroyed. A destruction report must even be submitted to the inspector general. In Canada, a commissioner designated by the parliament is responsible for this task of monitoring. Each year, he drafts a public report. In the United States, the NSA's activities are monitored by an inspector general and the US attorney general. When will France follow suit? In recent months, members of Parliament have taken an interest in "big ears" ... belonging to the Americans. The Defense Commission recently issued a spiteful report about "Echelon" and the NSA (footnote: On the subject of Echelon, see "Global Electronic Surveillance," by Duncan Campbell, Allia Publishing). It is time for it also to study the practices of the DGSE and propose ways of monitoring them. This is an opportune time. A revolution in "tapping" is on the way. The secret service is planning to invest massively in interception of undersea cables. Before plunging into this adventure, could it not be subjected to a few democratic rules? [Description of Source: Paris Le Nouvel Observateur (Internet Version-WWW) in French -- left-of-center weekly magazine featuring domestic and international political news] -- Dave Emery N1PRE, die at die.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass. PGP fingerprint = 2047/4D7B08D1 DE 6E E1 CC 1F 1D 96 E2 5D 27 BD B0 24 88 C3 18 From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Sep 7 23:20:15 2001 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 23:20:15 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Your Marketing Request Message-ID: <200109080620.f886KF128463@s216-232-14-166.bc.hsia.telus.net> Below is the result of your feedback form. It was submitted by () on Friday, September 7, 2001 at 23:20:15 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- message: Fwd: [From Tim Jameston] ATTENTION: ANY SERIOUS NETWORK MARKETER TAKE A LOOK AT THE FOLLOWING OPPORTUNITIES I CAME ACROSS!! 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You have nothing to lose andeverything to gain.All our mailings are sent complying to the proposed United StatesFederal requirements for commercial e-mail: Section 301 Paragraph (a)(2)(C) ofS.618. Please see the bottom of this message for further information andremoval instructions.Dear Friend,AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV:Make over a half million dollars ($500,000+)every 4 to 5 months from your home for an investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars - one time! THANKS TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET! ====================================================== BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!! Before you say "Bull", please read the following. This is the letter youhave been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the popularity of thisletter on the internet, a national weekly news program recently devoted anentire show to the investigation of this program described below, to see if itreally can make people money. Also...***Does this Headline Look familiar??***PARENTS OF 15 YEAR OLD FIND $71,000 CASH HIDDEN IN CLOSET! Of course it does. This is one of the stories they featured on that newsreport. This is also the same program that he was using. Moving On...This show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved once and for all that there are "absolutely no lawsprohibiting the participation in the program and if people can follow the simpleinstructions, they are bound to make some mega bucks with only $25 out of pocketcost."DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER !!! This is what one participant had to say: "I am thankful for this profitable opportunity. I had seen this programmany times before, but each time I passed on it. I am so glad I finally joined justto see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. Tomy astonishment, I received a total of $610,470.00 in 21 weeks, with moneystill coming in." PamHedland, Fort Lee, NJ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~Here is another testimonial: "This program has been around for a long time and I never believed init. But one day when I received this again in the mail, I decided to gamble my$25 on it. I followed the simple instructions and walaa. 3 weeks later the moneystarted to come in. First month I only made a total of $240.00 but the next 2months after that I made a total of $290,000.00. So far, in the past 8 months byre-entering the program, I have made over $710,000 and I am playing it again. Thekey to success in this program is to follow the simple steps and not changeanything."More testimonials later but first, ****** PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE ****** $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months easily and comfortably, please read the following. THEN READ IT AGAIN AND AGAIN!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTIONS BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE!!! INSTRUCTIONS:**** Order all 5 reports shown on the list below.**** For each report, send: 1. $5 CASH 2. THE NAME AND NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING 3. YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems. **** When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5reports. You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computerand resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5 = $25.**** Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the 5reports from these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer so they willbe accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order themfrom you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it on your desk in casesomething happens to your computer.**** IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listednext to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other thanwhat is instructed below in steps 1 through 6 or you will lose out on a majorityof your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you will also see howit does not work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter it, it will NOT work!!! So, DO NOT try to change anythingother than what is instructed. Because if you do, it will not work for you.Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 1. After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement andREMOVE the name and address of the person in REPORT # 5. This person has made it through the cycle and is not doubt counting their fortune.2. Move the name and address in REPORT # 4 to REPORT # 5.3. Move the name and address in REPORT # 3 to REPORT # 4.4. Move the name and address in REPORT # 2 to REPORT # 3..5. Move the name and address in REPORT # 1 to REPORT #2.6. Insert YOUR name and address in the REPORT # 1 position.PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name and address ACCURATELY! ============================================================Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it onyour computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. Save this on a disk as well just in case you lose any data.To assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the 5reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing informationwhich includes how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands offree classified ads and much more.There are 2 primary methods to get this venture going: METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY============================================================Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, andwe will assume you and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let'salso assume that the mailing receives only a 0.2% response (the responsecould be much better but let's just say it is only 0.2%. Also, many peoplewill send out thousands of e-mails instead of only 5,000 each.)Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. With a0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for Report # 1. Those 10 peopleresponded by sending out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000. Out of those50,000 e-mails, only 0.2% responded with orders. That equals 100 peopleresponding and ordering Report # 2. Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails eachfor a total of 500,000 emails. The 0.2% response to that is 1,000 orders forReport # 3. Those 1,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5million e-mails sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for Report# 4. Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of50,000,000 (50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders forReport # 5.THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIME $5 EACH = $500,000.00 (One-half milliondollars.)Your total income in this example is:1. $50 +2. $500 +3. $5,000 + 4. $50,000 +5. $500,000 + Grand Total + $555,550.00NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL AND PAPER AND FIGURE OUT THE WORSE POSSIBLE RESPONSE. NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY!!!-------------------------------------------------------------REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDER OUT OF THE 5,000 YOU MAILED TO. Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone or half or even one fourth of those people who respondedmailed 100,000 e-mails each or more. There are over 250 million people on theinternet worldwide and counting. Believe me, many people will do just that, andmore! METHOD # 2: BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET===========================================================Adv ertising on the net is very inexpensive and there are hundreds ofFREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the internet willeasily get a large response. We strongly suggest you start with METHOD # 1 and add METHOD # 2 as you go along.For every $5 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it. Always provide same day service on all reports. This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and address onit, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they receive thereport. **********AVAILABLE REPORTS**********ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER AND NAME ONLY.Notes: Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, writethe NUMBER & NAME of the Report you are ordering along with YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address.PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW: ====================================================REPORT # 1: "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on theInternet."ORDER REPORT # 1 FROM:Gillian Ernsberger,1812 E.Townline-16 Rd, Pinconning, MI 48650.USADon't forget to provide your e-mail address to receive the reports! ====================================================REPORT # 2: "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on theInternet"ORDER REPORT # 2 FROM:Shane Black 4331 E.Baseline rd, suite B-105, PMB435. Gilbert, Arizona. 85234- 2961USA====================================================REPORT # 3: "The Secrets of Multi-Level Marketing on the Internet"ORDER REPORT # 3 FROM:SMJPO Box 8936Mesa, AZ. 85213- 8936USA====================================================REPORT # 4: "How to Become a Millionaire Utilizing the Power of Multi-Level Marketing and the Internet"ORDER REPORT # 4 FROM:M.Miller3089-C Clairemont Drive #343San Diego, CA. 92117USA====================================================REPORT # 5: "How to Send 1,000,000 E-mails for FREE"ORDER REPORT # 5 FROM:KC3439 NE Sandy Blvd #379Portland, Oregon 97232USA======================================================There are currently more than 250,000,000 people online worldwide!$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$$$$Follow these guidelines to create your success:If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report # 1 within 2 weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do.After you receive 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you should receive 100 orders or more for Report # 2. If you did not, continue advertising or sending e- mails until you do.Once you have receiving 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a different report. You canKEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate from this business!!! --------------------------------------------------------------FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRM:You have just received information that can give you financial freedomfor the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money in the next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined.Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put your name and address in Report # 1 and move others to # 2...# 5 as instructed above. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails andyour name will be on every one of them. Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach.So my friend, I have given you ideas, information, materials andopportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW! *************** MORE TESTIMONIALS ***************My name it Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving "junk mail". I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I "knew" it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and a few days later she jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received a total of $147,200.00 all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jody in her "hobby". Mitchell Wolf, Chicago, Illinois---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------"Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, Idecided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way Iwouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back. I was surprised when I found my medium size post office box crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal isthat it does not matter where people live. There simply isn't a betterinvestment with a faster return." Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------"I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wonderedif I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact toget another copy, so I had to wait until I was e- mailed again by someoneelse... 11 months passed and then it luckily came again ... I did not delete isone! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the money came within 22 weeks." Susan De Suza, New York, NY-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------"It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money withlittle cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully and within 10 daysthe money started to come in. My first month I made $20,560.00 and by the end of the third month my total cash count was $362,840.00. Life is beautiful, thanks to the Internet." Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON "YOUR" ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM!!! If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer protection, Washington, D.C.Under Bill s.1618 TITLE III passed by the 105th Congress, this letter cannot be considered spam as long as the sender includes contact information and a method of removal. Make over a half million dollars ($500,000+) every 4 to 5 months from your home for an invest of only $25 U.S. Dollars - one time! It's there for you - go for it!Good Luck!-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=REMOVE Instructions=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- **************************************************************Do not reply to this message -To be removed from future mailings:mail to remove1549 @xyz002.com**************************************************************-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=- =More Info=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- **************************************************************To receive more information or to subscribe to Periodic mailings with offers like this...mail to reply1549 @xyz002.com**************************************************************<-*->mW3$F=d[83iz* 09FImvQQi$F38F308SImvmvPmvmvi=[8d3s?80,szImv6WA[NFAdiz=80,szImv%fHi|s=3 |F30,szImv2mWvW6qi?sAS98F30d3308F3Imv2%i$s3zd[S0,szImv2Hv%i@ [zs0,szImvP3szzR[ASiF*,[3F0,szImfm6vfiOsS0,sz0OAImf%ZQQi z*08F3Imfud=9dSSd=i|As9 [R08F3Im2Z-sFi@[zs0,sz03?Im2QmvqmiAFS[dOSFzF==d [808F3Im2%dO8i [,sz8F30,szIm2f6F9?dA9=i$szF0,szIm2Pd==$sSFiF*,[3F0,szIm2O[A9=iz=80,szImqQQizd [S0,szImqQQRsn=F_iF*, [3F0,szImqQ6SiAdzOSFA0AnImqQW2Wi,sz=F308F3Imqm6sNFA3nAFi,F83nAR [83FA08F3Imq%i?sAS9s8S[8F09FImq2i$s3zd[S0,szImqHQ% Wmi=@R3FS0,szImqHq2iuR|sSR0_[Imq3[SS[9[Fin=d08F3ImHQQ6,sz| 3s8iOOsR0,szImHmmq6i[zd[S0AnImH%HHQ=9i=3n9F830FnA08SImHvWvQQiF*, [3F0,szImHvvi|sA3ndSzd[S0|3ImHfm6i,F83nAR[83FA08F3ImHffqqmfi3FSF_s8[,dzsN[= 3dA0,sz0|FImH2%=,[Siz=80,sz<-*-> From measl at mfn.org Sat Sep 8 01:31:11 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 03:31:11 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: <20010905121758.B387@cluebot.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Sep 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > Mere possession (not creation) of visual depictions of child > pornography has been a federal felony for at least a decade. > Someone who's a "collector" who did not publish the material would > be a felon. We are not talking about "visual depictions" (cute Fedz euphemism for photographs or photograph like imagery) here, we are talking about *written words*. The anti-imaging laws are justified on the grounds that producing the stuff requires, by definition, a child, and therefore, outlawing the stuff "Saves Children". As I understand this story, the guy had a diary which contained written descriptions of things he would *like* to do, not a photo album of kids bent over a table... Big difference. A a "journalist", I'm sure you can see where this not so subtle difference lies... -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From shamrock at cypherpunks.to Fri Sep 7 21:11:24 2001 From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 06:11:24 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Eric Hughes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010908060947.F12020-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to> On Fri, 7 Sep 2001, A. Melon wrote: > Does anyone know Eric Hughes' current email address? the ricocet one is, > of course, non-functional now. eh(a_t)speakeasy.net -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted email preferred. From palzone12 at postino.ch Sat Sep 8 08:35:21 2001 From: palzone12 at postino.ch (palzone12 at postino.ch) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 08:35:21 Subject: LOANS WITH NO STRINGS ATTACHED Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4424 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sat Sep 8 07:38:46 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 09:38:46 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: <20010908102128.A9509@cluebot.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Sep 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > My point was that this is a natural outgrowth of existing child porn and > obscenity laws, and if you're upset at this, you should naturally be upset > at the entire framework. Then your point is invalid. Simply because the application or extension of something is harmful or undesirable doesn't map to the entire framework being bad. It's a common failing of C-A-C-L based theologies. You don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Sat Sep 8 09:45:14 2001 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 09:45:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: <20010908102128.A9509@cluebot.com> from "Declan McCullagh" at Sep 08, 2001 10:21:28 AM Message-ID: <200109081645.QAA28422@hey.fuh-q.org> Declan wrote: > My point was that this is a natural outgrowth of existing child porn and > obscenity laws, and if you're upset at this, you should naturally be upset > at the entire framework. Right. The big mistake was to criminalize "obscenity" in and of itself, to define what obscenity was by something as subjective as local community standards, and to make such criminalization independent of its willful dissemination to people who are offended by it. This creates the absurd situation that private ownership of material, deemed "prurient" by a majority of ones neighbors, makes one a criminal even if it is never shown to anyone. All the rest of the censorship nonsense, including that related to the sexual depictions of minors, follows sequentially from this fundamental idiocy. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From declan at well.com Sat Sep 8 07:21:28 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 10:21:28 -0400 Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: ; from measl@mfn.org on Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 03:31:11AM -0500 References: <20010905121758.B387@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20010908102128.A9509@cluebot.com> On Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 03:31:11AM -0500, measl at mfn.org wrote: > As I understand this story, the guy had a diary which contained written > descriptions of things he would *like* to do, not a photo album of kids > bent over a table... Your snotty message notwithstanding (I now regret taking you seriously in the past, and I'll try not to make that mistake again), my point was not to defend the law, as I made clear in the portion of my post you conveniently neglected to include. (In fact, since 1996 and the "morphed child porn" law in effect, Photoshop- created fantasies have been illegal to possess, and people have been convicted under that law, and their convictions (mostly) upheld.) My point was that this is a natural outgrowth of existing child porn and obscenity laws, and if you're upset at this, you should naturally be upset at the entire framework. -Declan From jamesd at echeque.com Sat Sep 8 10:44:19 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 10:44:19 -0700 Subject: Begging for Enemies of the State In-Reply-To: <200109071747.NAA20092@maynard.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <3B99F683.29317.2E1CD3@localhost> -- On 7 Sep 2001, at 13:40, John Young wrote: > The competiton between government-run prisons and the > commercial ops have led to fabulous lobbying and jawboning of > legislators and wardens to spread the lucrative but diminishing > prison-care population around, I think there is little danger that enemies of the state will be targeted. What appears to be happening is that in those semi rural counties that are particularly dependent on the prison business, they bust anyone who passes through who is from out of town, poor, and of the incorrect race, and sentence them to seven years or so on whatever they can find. Those cops and judges would not touch political activists with a ten foot pole. They want peaceful no-account people who will not make trouble, and will not get anyone making trouble for them. Not only will they not touch political activists, they are often reluctant to touch real criminals, since real criminals are often unprofitable to imprison. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG qeAmePYMQs+2fs9grz5Mwvlgsc9pcm/mMQgpTkbM 4u7EV0HOpoP6V0ezEklb1QSbQBmJb65puwaWBTjnk From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Sat Sep 8 02:01:10 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 11:01:10 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: [RRE]Your Face Is Not a Bar Code (fwd) Message-ID: -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 15:53:48 -0700 From: Phil Agre To: Red Rock Eater News Service Subject: [RRE]Your Face Is Not a Bar Code =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= This message was forwarded through the Red Rock Eater News Service (RRE). You are welcome to send the message along to others but please do not use the "redirect" option. For information about RRE, including instructions for (un)subscribing, see http://dlis.gseis.ucla.edu/people/pagre/rre.html =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Your Face Is Not a Bar Code: Arguments Against Automatic Face Recognition in Public Places Phil Agre http://dlis.gseis.ucla.edu/pagre/ Version of 7 September 2001. 2600 words. Copyright 2001 by Phil Agre. You are welcome to forward this article in electronic form to anyone for any noncommercial reason. Please do not post it on any Web sites; instead, link to it here: http://dlis.gseis.ucla.edu/people/pagre/bar-code.html Given a digital image of a person's face, face recognition software matches it against a database of other images. If any of the stored images matches closely enough, the system reports the sighting to its owner. Research on automatic face recognition has been around for decades, but accelerated in the 1990s. Now it is becoming practical, and face recognition systems are being deployed on a large scale. Some applications of automatic face recognition systems are relatively unobjectionable. Many facilities have good reasons to authenticate everyone who walks in the door, for example to regulate access to weapons, money, criminal evidence, nuclear materials, or biohazards. When a citizen has been arrested for probable cause, it is reasonable for the police to use automatic face recognition to match a mug shot of the individual against a database of mug shots of people who have been arrested previously. These uses of the technology should be publicly justified, and audits should ensure that the technology is being used only for proper purposes. Face recognition systems in public places, however, are a matter for serious concern. The issue recently came to broad public attention when it emerged that fans attending the Super Bowl had unknowingly been matched against a database of alleged criminals, and when the city of Tampa deployed a face-recognition system in the nightlife district of Ybor City. But current and proposed uses of face recognition are much more widespread, as the resources at the end of this article demonstrate in detail. The time to consider the acceptability of face recognition in public places is now, before the practice becomes entrenched and people start getting hurt. Nor is the problem limited to the scattered cases that have been reported thus far. As the underlying information and communication technologies (digital cameras, image databases, processing power, and data communications) become radically cheaper over the next two decades, face recognition will become dramatically cheaper as well, even without assuming major advances in technologies such as image processing that are specific to recognizing faces. Legal constraints on the practice in the United States are minimal. (In Europe the data protection laws will apply, providing at least some basic rights of notice and correction.) Databases of identified facial images already exist in large numbers (driver's license and employee ID records, for example), and new facial-image databases will not be hard to construct, with or without the knowledge or consent of the people whose faces are captured. (The images need to be captured under controlled conditions, but most citizens enter controlled, video-monitored spaces such as shops and offices on a regular basis.) It is nearly certain, therefore, that automatic face recognition will grow explosively and become pervasive unless action is taken now. I believe that automatic face recognition in public places, including commercial spaces such as shopping malls that are open to the public, should be outlawed. The dangers outweigh the benefits. The necessary laws will not be passed, however, without overwhelming pressure of public opinion and organizing. To that end, this article presents the arguments against automatic face recognition in public places, followed by responses to the most common arguments in favor. Arguments against automatic face recognition in public places * The potential for abuse is astronomical. Pervasive automatic face recognition could be used to track individuals wherever they go. Systems operated by different organizations could easily be networked to cooperate in tracking an individual from place to place, whether they know the person's identity or not, and they can share whatever identities they do know. This tracking information could be used for many purposes. At one end of the spectrum, the information could be leaked to criminals who want to understand a prospective victim's travel patterns. Information routinely leaks from databases of all sorts, and there is no reason to believe that tracking databases will be any different. But even more insidiously, tracking information can be used to exert social control. Individuals will be less likely to contemplate public activities that offend powerful interests if they know that their identity will be captured and relayed to anyone that wants to know. * The information from face recognition systems is easily combined with information from other technologies. Industry often refers to face recognition as "facial recognition" because they regard faces as one modality of identification among many. Among the many "biometric" identification technologies, face recognition requires the least cooperation from the individual. Automatic fingerprint reading, by contrast, requires an individual to press a finger against a machine. (It will eventually be possible to identify people by the DNA-bearing cells that they leave behind, but that technology is a long way from becoming ubiquitous.) Organizations that have good reasons to identify individuals should employ whatever technology has the least inherent potential for abuse, yet very few identification technologies have more potential for abuse than face recognition. Information from face recognition systems is also easily combined with so-called location technologies such as E-911 location tracking in cell phones, thus further adding to the danger of abuse. * The technology is hardly foolproof. Among the potential downsides are false positives, for example that so-and-so was "seen" on a street frequented by drug dealers. Such a report will create "facts" that the individual must explain away. Yet the conditions for image capture and recognition in most public places are far from ideal. Shadows, occlusions, reflections, and multiple uncontrolled light sources all increase the risk of false positives. As the database of facial images grows bigger, the chances of a false match to one of those images grows proportionally larger. * Many social institutions depend on the difficulty of putting names to faces without human intervention. If people could be identified just from looking in a shop window or eating in a restaurant, it would be a tremendous change in our society's conception of the human person. People would find strangers addressing them by name. Prospective customers walking into a shop could find that their credit reports and other relevant information had already been pulled up and displayed for the sales staff before they even inquire about the goods. Even aside from the privacy invasion that this represents, premature disclosure of this sort of information could affect the customer's bargaining position. * The public is poorly informed about the capabilities of the cameras that are already ubiquitous in many countries. They usually do not realize, for example, what can be done with the infrared component of the captured images. Even the phrase "face recognition" does not convey how easily the system can extract facial expressions. It is not just "identity" that can be captured, then, but data that reaches into the person's psyche. Even if the public is adequately informed about the capabilities of this year's cameras, software and data sharing can be improved almost invisibly next year. * It is very hard to provide effective notice of the presence and capabilities of cameras in most public places, much less obtain meaningful consent. Travel through many public places, for example government offices and centralized transportation facilities, is hardly a matter of choice for any individual wishing to live in the modern world. Even in the private sector, many retail industries (groceries, for example) are highly concentrated, so that consumers have little choice but to submit to the dominant company's surveillance practices. * If face recognition technologies are pioneered in countries where civil liberties are relatively strong, it becomes more likely that they will also be deployed in countries where civil liberties hardly exist. In twenty years, at current rates of progress, it will be feasible for the Chinese government to use face recognition to track the public movements of everyone in the country. Responses to arguments in favor of automatic face recognition in public places * "All of the people in our database are wanted criminals. We don't store any of the images that our cameras capture, except when they match an image in the database. So the only people who have any cause for complaint are criminals." The problems with this argument are numerous: (1) We have to trust your word that the only people whose images are stored in the database are wanted criminals, and we have to trust your word that you throw away all of the images that fail to match the database. (2) You don't really know yourself whether all of the people in the database are criminals. Quality control on those databases is far from perfect, as the database of "felons" that was used to purge some Florida counties' electoral rolls in 2000 demonstrated. (3) Even if the only people in the database today are criminals, the forces pushing us down a slippery slope of every-expanding databases are nearly overwhelming. Once the system is established and working, why not add people with criminal records who have served their time? Then we could add alleged troublemakers who have been ejected from businesses in the past but have never been convicted of crimes, people who have been convicted of minor offenses such as shoplifting, people with court orders to stay away from certain places, missing persons, children whose parents are worried about them, elders whose children are worried about them, employees of the business where the system is operating, and other individuals who have signed contracts agreeing to be tracked. And once those people are added, it is then a short step to add many other categories of people as well. * "Public is public. If someone happens to notice you walking in the park, you have no grounds for complaint if they decide to tell someone else where you were. That's all we're doing. You don't have any reasonable expectation of privacy in a public place, and I have a free-speech right to communicate factual information about where you were." A human being who spots me in the park has the accountability that someone can spot them as well. Cameras are much more anonymous and easy to hide. More important is the question of scale. Most people understand the moral difference between a single chance observation in a park and an investigator who follows you everywhere you go. The information collected in the second case is obviously more dangerous. What is more, custom and law have always recognized many kinds of privacy in public. For example, the press cannot publish pictures of most people in personally sensitive situations that have no legitimate news value. It is considered impolite to listen in on conversations in public. Pervasive face recognition clearly lies at the morally most problematic end of this spectrum. The chance of being spotted is different from the certainty of being tracked. The phrase "reasonable expectation of privacy" comes from a US Supreme Court decision. The phrase has been widely criticized as useless, since reason that reasonable expectations of privacy in a situation can disappear as soon as someone starts routinely invading privacy in that situation. The problem is an often-exploited ambiguity in the word "expectation", which can mean either a prediction (with no logical implication that the world morally *ought* to hold conform to it) or a norm (with no logical implication that the world actually *will* conform to it). In arguing in favor of a ban on automatic face recognition in public places, one is not arguing for a blanket "right of privacy in public", which would be unreasonable and impractical. Rather, one is arguing for a right against technologically mediated privacy invasions of certain types. Technological mediation is key because of its continuous operation, standardized results, lack of other legitimate purposes, and rapidly dropping costs. The argument about free speech rights is spurious because the proposed ban is not on the transfer of information, but on the creation of certain kinds of electronic records. You still have the right to communicate the same information if you acquire it in other ways. * "Automatic face recognition stops crime. Police say they want it. And if it prevents one child from being killed then I support it." A free society is a society in which there are limits on what the police can do. If we want to remain a free society then we need to make a decision. Once a new surveillance technology is installed, it is nearly impossible to stop the slippery slope toward ever broader law enforcement use of it. The case of automatic toll collection makes this clear. Absent clear legal protections, then, we should assume from the beginning that any technology that captures personal information will be used for law enforcement purposes, and not only in cases where lives are immediately at stake. The potential for abuse should then be figured into our decision about whether the technology should be deployed at all. That said, it is hardly proven that face recognition stops crime, when face recognition is being added to a world that already contains many other crime-fighting technologies. The range of crime detection technologies available to the police has grown immensely in recent years, and even if one encountered a case where a crime was solved using a given technology it by no means follows that the crime would not have been solved equally well using some other technology. * "Privacy prevents the marketplace from functioning efficiently. When a company knows more about you, it can tailor its offerings more specifically to your needs. Of course if you ask people whether scary face recognition systems should be banned then they'll say yes. But you're asking the wrong question. The right question is whether people are willing to give up information in exchange for something of value, and most people are." This is a non sequitur. Few proposals for privacy protection prevent people from voluntarily handing information about themselves to companies with which they wish to do business. The problem arises when information is transferred without the individual's knowledge, and in ways that might well cause upset or harm if they became known. What distinguishes automatic face recognition from many other equally good identification technologies is that it can be used without the individual's permission (and therefore without the individual having agreed to any exchange). That is why it should be banned. * "A preoccupation with privacy is corrosive. Democracy requires people to have public personae, and excessive secrecy is unhealthy." Privacy does not equal secrecy. Privacy means that an individual has reasonable control over what information is made public, and what is not. Any decent social order requires that individuals be entrusted with this judgement. Even if particular individuals choose to become secretive in a pathological way, forcing them to change will not help the situation and is intrinsincally wrong anyway. As to the value of public personae, we should encourage the development of technologies that give people the option to appear publicly where and how they want. * "What do you have to hide?" This line is used against nearly every attempt to protect personal privacy, and the response in each case is the same. People have lots of valid reasons, personal safety for example, to prevent particular others from knowing particular information about them. Democracy only works if groups can organize and develop their political strategies in seclusion from the government, and from any established interests they might be opposing. This includes, for example, the identities of people who might travel through public places to gather for a private political meeting. In its normal use, the question "What do you have to hide?" stigmatizes all personal autonomy as anti-social. As such it is an authoritarian demand, and has no place in a free society. For more responses to bad arguments against privacy, see: http://dlis.gseis.ucla.edu/people/pagre/arguments.html News articles with background on face recognition. Facial-Recognition System Gets Millions in Federal Funds http://www.siliconvalley.com/docs/news/svfront/016044.htm Facial ID Systems Raising Concerns About Privacy http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A12629-2001Jul31.html Facial-Recognition Tech Has People Pegged http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/ptech/07/17/face.time.idg/ Face Scanners Turn Lens on Selves http://wired.com/news/privacy/0,1848,45687,00.html Face-Recognition Systems Offer New Tools, but Mixed Results http://www.biometricgroup.com/a_press/NYTimes_May_2001.htm How Facial Recognition Software Finds Faces http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/CuttingEdge/cuttingedge010706.html Law Enforcement Agencies Working on 3D Face Recognition Technology http://asia.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9909/24/3d.face.recognition.idg/ Face-Recognition Technology Raises Fears of Big Brother http://www.deseretnews.com/dn/view/0%2C1249%2C150015975%2C00.html Seeking Clues to Recognition ... in Your Face http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/news/health-science/html98/face_20000111.html Smile, You're On Scan Camera http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,42317,00.html Other sites with background information on face recognition technology and its potential for privacy invasion. Electronic Privacy Information Center Face Recognition Page http://www.epic.org/privacy/facerecognition/ Coalition Declares December 24, 2001 to Be "World Subjectrights Day" http://wearcam.org/wsd.htm Facial Recognition Vendor Test 2000 http://www.dodcounterdrug.com/facialrecognition/DLs/FRVT_2000.pdf http://www.dodcounterdrug.com/facialrecognition/FRVT2000/frvt2000.htm Selected Facial Scan Projects http://www.facial-scan.com/selected_facial_scan_projects1.htm US government site for biometric technology (including face recognition) http://www.biometrics.org/ Facing the Truth: A New Tool to Analyze Our Expressions http://www.hhmi.org/bulletin/may2001/faces/ Biometrics: Face Recognition Technology http://www.sans.org/infosecFAQ/authentic/face_rec.htm Automatic Face and Gesture Recognition, Washington, 20-21 May 2002 http://degas.umiacs.umd.edu/pirl/fg2002/ the two dominant face recognition companies http://www.visionics.com/faceit/ http://www.viisage.com/ other companies http://www.visionspheretech.com/menu.htm http://www.symtrontech.com/ http://www.cognitec-ag.de/ http://www.c-vis.com/htdocs/english/facesnap/ http://www.neurodynamics.com/ http://www.imagistechnologies.com/ http://www.spiritcorp.com/face_rec.html http://www.bio4.co.uk/ http://www.bioid.com/ http://www.miros.com/solutions/face.htm http://www.keyware.com/ http://www.bionetrix.com/ Web pages about technical research projects on face recognition. directory of face recognition research http://www.cs.rug.nl/~peterkr/FACE/face.html Face Recognition and Detection http://home.t-online.de/home/Robert.Frischholz/face.htm DoD Counterdrug Program Face Recognition Technology Program http://www.dodcounterdrug.com/facialrecognition/Feret/feret.htm http://www.itl.nist.gov/iad/humanid/feret/feret_master.html Wearable Face Recognition and Detection http://www.gvu.gatech.edu/ccg/projects/face/ Identification of Faces From Video http://staff.psy.gla.ac.uk/~mike/videoproj.html Evaluation of Face Recognition Algorithms http://www.cs.colostate.edu/evalfacerec/ slides from an MIT course on human and artificial face recognition http://web.mit.edu/9.670/www/ Gesture Recognition Home Page (related technology) http://www.cybernet.com/~ccohen/ Articles about face-recognition controversies in various places, roughly in reverse chronological order. Borders stores first Borders says it "suspended any plans to implement" face recognition ... http://www.computerworld.com/storyba/0,4125,NAV47_STO63359,00.html ... then it denies that it ever had any such intention http://www.politechbot.com/p-02447.html Borders is planning to use face recognition to identify shop-lifters http://www.sundayherald.com/18007/ casinos Smart Cameras at Casinos Spark a Debate on Privacy http://www.uniontrib.com/news/metro/20010717-9999_1n17cameras.html Privacy Commissioner Reassures Public That Casinos Are Not Scanning All Patrons http://www.ipc.on.ca/english/whatsnew/newsrel/casino01.htm OPP uses secret cameras in casinos ("police are secretly scanning the faces of customers at all Ontario casinos") http://www.efc.ca/pages/media/2001/2001-01-16-a-torontostar.html Global Cash Access Signs New Contracts With 20 Gaming Properties (face-recognizing ATM machines in casinos) http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/010823/232101_3.html Smile! You're on Casino Camera http://wbbm.cbsnow.com/now/story/0,1597,274604-240,00.shtml Virginia Beach, Virginia Technology Helps Authorities Keep a Constant Eye on Public http://www.pilotonline.com/news/nw0827cam.html Beach May Scan Oceanfront Faces http://www.pilotonline.com/news/nw0706fac.html Huntington Beach, California Imagis and ORION Chosen to Install Biometrics by Huntington Beach Police http://cipherwar.com/news/01/imagis_big_brother.htm Jacksonville, Florida Police Snooper Camera Fight Still Alive http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/083101/met_7161286.html Florida City Moves to Ban Face-Recognition System http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/fcw2.htm Pinellas County, Florida Face Recognition System Will Be Used by Florida Sheriff's Office http://www.friendsofliberty.com/files/2001/07/27/02.htm Britain Think Tank Urges Face-Scanning of the Masses http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/20966.html face recognition technology in the UK http://www.urban75.com/Action/cctv.html http://www.sourceuk.net/articles/a00624.html Newham Council Launches "Face Recognition" in the UK http://www.newham.gov.uk/press/julythrunov98/facereg.html Joyrider, 14, Is First Tagging Guinea Pig http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2-2001242628,00.html Colorado Colorado Governor Doesn't Want Face Recognition Technology Abused http://www.thedenverchannel.com/den/entertainment/stories/technology-87985620010719-070716.html Colorado Won't Use Facial Recognition Technology on Licenses http://www.thedenverchannel.com/den/entertainment/stories/technology-86955020010712-110740.html Colorado To Use Face Recognition Photos To Stop ID Theft http://www.newsbytes.com/news/01/167655.html Colorado to "Map" Faces of Drivers http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1002,11%257E57823,00.html Minnesota Minnesota Adopts Visionics' FaceIt for Integrated Mug Shot Database System http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/010814/142123.html Super Bowl Face Scans Match Few Suspects http://www.sptimes.com/News/021601/TampaBay/Face_scans_match_few_.shtml ACLU Protests High-Tech Super Bowl Surveillance http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/2001-02-02-super-bowl-surveillance.htm Super Bowl Surveillance: Facing Up to Biometrics http://www.rand.org/publications/IP/IP209/IP209.pdf Feds Use Biometrics Against Super Bowl Fans http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/16561.html Cameras Scanned Fans for Criminals http://www.sptimes.com/News/013101/TampaBay/Cameras_scanned_fans_.shtml Tampa, Florida Facial Frisking in Tampa http://www.privacyfoundation.org/commentary/tipsheet.asp?id=46&action=0 complete directory of Tampa news articles through early August from the ACLU http://www.gate.net/~rwms/aclutampacam.html "Big Brother" Cameras on Watch for Criminals http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/2001-08-02-big-brother-cameras.htm "They made me feel like a criminal" http://www.sptimes.com/News/080801/TampaBay/_They_made_me_feel_li.shtml Tampa Face-Recognition Vote Rattles Privacy Group http://www.newsbytes.com/news/01/168677.html Civil Rights or Just Sour Grapes? http://www.sptimes.com/News/080301/TampaBay/Civil_rights_or_just_.shtml Tampa City Council meeting which voted to keep the face recognition cameras http://www.ci.tampa.fl.us/appl_Cable_Communications_closed_captioning/frmAgenda.asp Click. BEEP! Face Captured http://www.sptimes.com/News/071901/Floridian/Click_BEEP_Face_captu.shtml Tampa Gets Ready For Its Closeup http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,167846,00.html Masked Protesters Fight Face Scans http://www.sptimes.com/News/071501/TampaBay/Masked_protesters_fig.shtml Tampa Puts Face-Recognition System on Public Street http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/2001-07-13-tampa-surveillance.htm Congressional Leader Calls for Action on Ybor City Surveillance (Ybor City is a busy nightlife neighborhood of Tampa) http://www.wtsp.com/news/2001_07/12_ybor_cameras.htm ACLU Probes Police Use of Facial-Recognition Cameras in Florida City http://www.aclu.org/news/2001/n070601a.html http://freedom.house.gov/library/technology/aclu.asp Tampa Scans the Faces in Its Crowds for Criminals http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/04/technology/04VIDE.html public radio report about the controversy http://www.npr.org/ramfiles/atc/20010702.atc.14.rmm Ybor Police Cameras Go Spy-Tech http://www.sptimes.com/News/063001/TampaBay/Ybor_police_cameras_g.shtml end From oio_oiuu_ww_ll at yandex.ru Sat Sep 8 00:24:44 2001 From: oio_oiuu_ww_ll at yandex.ru (MailBase) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 11:24:44 +0400 Subject: =?windows-1251?Q?=C1=E0=E7=FB_=E4=E0=ED=ED=FB=F5_=EF=F0=E5=E4=EF=F0=E8=FF=F2=E8=E9_=E4=EB=FF_=EA=EE=ED=F2=E0=EA=F2=EE=E2_=EF=EE_=FD=EB=E5=EA=F2=F0=EE=ED=ED=EE=E9_=EF=EE=F7=F2=E5?= Message-ID: <16206200196872444529@yandex.ru> Здравствуйте! В этом письме: - базы данных предприятий для контактов по электронной почте; - программа для автоматической рассылки электронной почты; - базы данных крупнейших предприятий. Когда необходимо быстро и с минимальными затратами сообщить определенной целевой группе предприятий какую-либо информацию, нет ничего лучше, чем сделать это по электронной почте. Наши базы данных для контактов по электронной почте предназначены специально для этих целей. Многие отрицательно относятся к массовым электронным рассылки, печально известным как spam. Однако мы считаем, нет ничего плохого в том, что фирма, выбрав из базы ограниченный круг предприятий (и только предприятий, а не частных лиц!) лишь определенного рода деятельности, рассылает по ним соответствующее предложение небольшого объема, которое действительно реально может их заинтересовать. Такие рассылки можно использовать не только для рекламных целей. Например, вам нужно узнать стоимость определенного товара, производимого или продаваемого определенной группой организаций. Обзвонить 500, а то и 1000 фирм - занятие, требующее значительного времени. А если сделать рассылку с соответствующим запросом по данной группе организаций, можно быстро получить полную информацию по интересующему вопросу. Предлагаем Вам два комплекта для контактов по электронной почте: Комплект "Организации Москвы" - 38000 предприятий (все с электронными адресами); Комплект "Организации СНГ" - 30000 предприятий (все с электронными адресами) Каждый комплект включает в себя: - соответствующую базу данных для контактов по электронной почте; - программу GroupMail для автоматической рассылки электронной почты. База данных "38000 организаций Москвы". Кроме электронного адреса (e-mail имеется у каждой организации) по каждой компании представлены: - название, - род деятельности, - телефоны, - факс, - почтовый адрес, - адрес сайта. База оформлена в виде стандартной таблицы Excel, что позволяет работать с нею пользователю с любым уровнем знания компьютера, и дает возможность сортировки строк по любому из параметров, например, по роду деятельности. В базу вошли все компании, которые сами публикуют свой e-mail в различных бизнес-справочниках по Москве. Возвратов с несуществующих адресов при рассылках: 15%. Обновление базы происходит каждый квартал. База с программой предоставляется на компакт-диске или высылается электронной почтой. СТОИМОСТЬ данной базы в комплекте с программой GroupMail (см. ниже) - $300. Стоимость обновления $60. Форма оплаты любая. Заказы и вопросы направляйте на адрес mailbase at post.com. База данных "30000 предприятий СНГ". Кроме электронного адреса (e-mail имеется у каждой организации) по каждой компании представлены: - название, - форма собственности, - телефоны, - факс, - почтовый адрес, - адрес сайта, - Ф.И.О. и должность руководителя (!), - численность штата, - список производимых товаров и услуг. База оформлена в виде стандартной таблицы Excel, что позволяет работать с нею пользователю с любым уровнем знания компьютера. Возвратов с несуществующих адресов при рассылках: 20%. Обновление базы происходит каждый квартал. База с программой предоставляется на компакт-диске или высылается электронной почтой. СТОИМОСТЬ данной базы в комплекте с программой GroupMail (см. ниже) - $200. Стоимость обновления $40. Форма оплаты любая. Заказы и вопросы направляйте на адрес mailbase at post.com. Программа "Group Mail" предназначена для осуществления электронных рассылок. Во время рассылки "Group Mail" генерирует и отсылает письма для каждого получателя в отдельности. При этом в текстах (как в теме, так и в теле письма) может использоваться подстановка информации из различных ячеек базы, соответствующих конкретному адресу. Это позволяет обращаться к каждому получателю по имени в рассылках по базе Ваших клиентов или партнеров, а также любым другим образом персонифицировать Вашу рассылку. Например, тема письма может быть такой: "Предложение для компании (название_компании)". "Group Mail" имеет широкие возможности по ведению баз данных. Вы можете импортировать в программу свои базы. Их может быть неограниченное количество. Базы можно создавать, дополнять, редактировать. Письма в рассылках могут составляться как в формате txt, так и html. Реализована возможность прикрепления файлов любого формата. Group Mail работает без участия какой-либо другой почтовой программы. Программа "Group Mail" бесплатно прилагается к каждой из вышеописанных баз данных. Но ее можно приобрести и отдельно для рассылки по своим базам. В этом случае стоимость ее предоставления $25. Форма оплаты любая. Программа предоставляется на компакт-диске или высылается электронной почтой. Заказы и вопросы направляйте на адрес mailbase at post.com. Внимание! При одновременном приобретении обеих баз данных предоставляется скидка: $100! Выполняем электронные рассылки по Вашему заказу. Заказы и вопросы направляйте на адрес mailbase at post.com. Имеются также маркетинговые базы данных КРУПНЕЙШИХ ПРЕДПРИЯТИЙ: "Предприятия Москвы/России/СНГ с численностью штата более 50/500/1000 человек". Стоимости этх баз данных от $100 до $300. Форма оплаты любая. Базы предоставляется на компакт диске или высылается электронной почтой. Заказы и вопросы направляйте на адрес mailbase at post.com. Базы региональных промышленных предприятий. mailbase at post.com. Компания MailBase, E-mail: mailbase at post.com From bob at black.org Sat Sep 8 11:27:27 2001 From: bob at black.org (Subcommander Bob) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 11:27:27 -0700 Subject: Senators in need of retirement; the police state Message-ID: <3B9A630E.8029D939@black.org> At 09:30 PM 9/7/01 -0700, keyser-soze at hushmail.com wrote > With the help of Fritz Hollings (D-S.C.), the powerful chairman of the > Senate Commerce committee, they hope to embed copy-protection controls, > in nearly all consumer electronic devices and PCs. All types of, > digital content, including music, video and e-books, are covered. ,>I think any Senator who signs on for this has earned killing. Reminds me of when a sociologist was interviewing a southern farmer: Why do you think the murder rate is higher in the south? I guess more southerners need killin'. as told by Aaron Evans From cypherpunks at toad.com Sat Sep 8 11:28:11 2001 From: cypherpunks at toad.com (cypherpunks at toad.com) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 11:28:11 Subject: Your Ad Time:11:28:11 AM Message-ID: Hi, I noticed your well done ad in classifieds. As a PPL associate I'd like to introduce myself and maybe compare notes. If you'd like to do so please email me at info at free-law-central.com Meanwhile check out my site that I and many other associates are using to gain a large volume of names due to the SEM system and popup windows that follow the visitor as he navigates the normal PPL site. Here's some URLs to check out... Home page w/popup http://www.free-law-central.com Associate recruiting page http://www.free-law-central.com/associate_lead.htm Focus advertising page http://www.free-law-central.com/free_will.htm Our associate's support site http://www.officialinfo.net To your success J.R. Orsoni 954-566-5175 P.S. If you ever want to chat live go to: http://www.free-law-central.com/associate_talk.htm 8/9/01 From measl at mfn.org Sat Sep 8 09:35:13 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 11:35:13 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: <20010908120204.A10705@cluebot.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Sep 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > Jim, > I don't understand what you mean. Perhaps you can quote the relevant > section of the U.S. Constitution you're talking about, and follow it > up with some Slashdot URLs? Some week-old wire service articles would > be a big help too. > > Your fan, > Declan On Sat, 8 Sep 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > Your snotty message notwithstanding (I now regret taking you seriously > in the past, and I'll try not to make that mistake again) So what we have here, Ladies and Gentleman, is a hypocrite. Snotty messages from Declan are handed down from on high, whereas snotty messages from the rest of the world will render the originator of the missive as one who is 'not worth being taken seriously'. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From measl at mfn.org Sat Sep 8 09:53:20 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 11:53:20 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: <20010908102128.A9509@cluebot.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Sep 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > On Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 03:31:11AM -0500, measl at mfn.org wrote: > > As I understand this story, the guy had a diary which contained written > > descriptions of things he would *like* to do, not a photo album of kids > > bent over a table... > > Your snotty message notwithstanding (I now regret taking you seriously > in the past, and I'll try not to make that mistake again), my point > was not to defend the law, It did not appear [to me] that you were attempting to defend the law. > as I made clear in the portion of my post > you conveniently neglected to include. I did not elide this snippet below. That said, I came in from an 18++ hour day at work, and skimmed through my 700++ emails for the day, focusing primarily on those threads of interest. As there were an unusually large number of them today, I did stay closest to the most recent as a kind of "digest" attempt - if the below paragraph was somewhere in the original thread, it was gone by the time I responded. That said, I will respond to this now. > (In fact, since 1996 and the "morphed child porn" law in effect, Photoshop- > created fantasies have been illegal to possess, and people have been convicted > under that law, and their convictions (mostly) upheld.) > > My point was that this is a natural outgrowth of existing child porn and > obscenity laws, An outgrowth would imply that it is along a continuum that has the same basic "footing". All of your above examples, from the traditional "kiddie porn" to the Feinswine dirty pixel laws deal with visual imagery of the photographic "kind". What we have here is distinctly different: no pictures of *any* kind, real or constructed, *unless*, we are no prosecuting the imagery that we are assuming is present in the mind of the author. He is using *words*, not *imagery*. > and if you're upset at this, you should naturally be upset > at the entire framework. I *am* upset at the entire framework. Regardless of which (or both) of these footings are argued as somehow "morally valid/justified/whatever", what it boils down to is the outlawing of *information*. The outlawing of DATA is a Pure Thought Crime. If we wanted to "Protect The Children" we would make the *act* of engaging a minor in an *act* of nude photography/sex/dope smoking/whatever a serious crime, and we would then enforce it to the teeth. That we do not speaks volumes about who we are "protecting". The "drug war" is the perfect analogy here: it is the posession, which is inherently victimless, which is the greater evil under the "judgement" of our "society". Posession of *anything* is a victimless "crime", and should NEVER be prosecutable. > -Declan -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From declan at well.com Sat Sep 8 09:02:04 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 12:02:04 -0400 Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@einstein.ssz.com on Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 09:38:46AM -0500 References: <20010908102128.A9509@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20010908120204.A10705@cluebot.com> On Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 09:38:46AM -0500, Jim Choate wrote: > On Sat, 8 Sep 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > > > My point was that this is a natural outgrowth of existing child porn and > > obscenity laws, and if you're upset at this, you should naturally be upset > > at the entire framework. > > Then your point is invalid. Simply because the application or extension of > something is harmful or undesirable doesn't map to the entire framework > being bad. > > It's a common failing of C-A-C-L based theologies. > > You don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Jim, I don't understand what you mean. Perhaps you can quote the relevant section of the U.S. Constitution you're talking about, and follow it up with some Slashdot URLs? Some week-old wire service articles would be a big help too. Your fan, Declan From cypherpunks at toad.com Sat Sep 8 12:23:52 2001 From: cypherpunks at toad.com (cypherpunks at toad.com) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 12:23:52 Subject: Your Ad Time:12:23:52 PM Message-ID: Hi, I noticed your well done ad in classifieds. As a PPL associate I'd like to introduce myself and maybe compare notes. If you'd like to do so please email me at info at free-law-central.com Meanwhile check out my site that I and many other associates are using to gain a large volume of names due to the SEM system and popup windows that follow the visitor as he navigates the normal PPL site. Here's some URLs to check out... Home page w/popup http://www.free-law-central.com Associate recruiting page http://www.free-law-central.com/associate_lead.htm Focus advertising page http://www.free-law-central.com/free_will.htm Our associate's support site http://www.officialinfo.net To your success J.R. Orsoni 954-566-5175 P.S. If you ever want to chat live go to: http://www.free-law-central.com/associate_talk.htm 8/9/01 From declan at well.com Sat Sep 8 09:25:18 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 12:25:18 -0400 Subject: Request for SSSCA mirror help Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010908122504.00ab3e10@mail.well.com> I've put the complete SSSCA draft text in a PDF file here: http://www.well.com/~declan/sssca-draft.pdf Can I talk some folks who can spare the bandwidth into mirroring it and sending me the URL? The file's 2.5 MB, and I don't want to overload the Well's poor servers. Then I'll distribute a list of the original and the mirror sites. Please disregard this message after 3 pm ET Saturday. Thanks, Declan From declan at well.com Sat Sep 8 10:19:47 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 13:19:47 -0400 Subject: Request for SSSCA mirror help In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010908122504.00ab3e10@mail.well.com>; from declan@well.com on Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 12:25:18PM -0400 References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010908122504.00ab3e10@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <20010908131947.A12038@cluebot.com> Looks like we're set. Thanks, folks. http://gnu-darwin.sourceforge.net/sssca-draft.pdf http://www.nullify.org/sssca-draft.pdf http://sites.inka.de/risctaker/sssca-draft.pdf http://www.parrhesia.com/sssca-draft.pdf -Declan On Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 12:25:18PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: > I've put the complete SSSCA draft text in a PDF file here: > http://www.well.com/~declan/sssca-draft.pdf > > Can I talk some folks who can spare the bandwidth into mirroring it and > sending me the URL? The file's 2.5 MB, and I don't want to overload the > Well's poor servers. Then I'll distribute a list of the original and the > mirror sites. > > Please disregard this message after 3 pm ET Saturday. > > Thanks, > Declan From bob at black.org Sat Sep 8 13:25:09 2001 From: bob at black.org (Subcommander Bob) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 13:25:09 -0700 Subject: AOL subpeona'd for chat room 'witness' truename Message-ID: <3B9A7EA5.45DC3CD8@black.org> DULLES, Va. (AP) - Colorado police investigating the 1996 death of JonBenet Ramsey are trying to learn the identity of an America Online subscriber who claimed in an Internet message that he witnessed the 6-year-old's slaying. The Washington Post reported Saturday that Boulder, Colo., police Detective Thomas Trujillo asked Loudoun County, Va., investigators to file a search warrant asking AOL for the user's name, e-mail files and buddy lists. Boulder city spokeswoman Jana Peterson confirmed the report in an interview with Denver's KUSA-TV, but said: "It is not, in our estimation, any more significant than any number of tips that we've received in the past five years." An affidavit for the warrant said the message was posted on a Web site devoted to JonBenet, who was found beaten and strangled in the basement of her family's Boulder home on Dec. 26, 1996. No charges have been filed in the killing. Police Chief Mark Beckner received an e-mail Aug. 8 from an AOL user about the "confession," according to the affidavit "I was there when the whole thing occurred," the Aug. 7 message read. "I never wanted any part in it, but they said if I didn't help I would be killed as well." Messages left by The Associated Press for Beckner and Trujillo were not immediately returned. Loudoun County officials said no one would be available for comment until Monday. AOL spokesman Nicholas Graham said the Dulles-based company were cooperating with authorities. He declined to identify the source of the e-mails. From measl at mfn.org Sat Sep 8 13:39:58 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 15:39:58 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Official Anonymizing In-Reply-To: <20010905104633.A11784@weathership.homeport.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Sep 2001, Adam Shostack wrote: > Is it even legal (in the US) to refuse to sell to the feds? I know While I am unsure of the _current_ status, as of 1989/90 it was at least OK to place severe restrictions on *how* one did business with them. At that time I worked for a company that separate divisions, of which one was a [consumer] retail outlet (interestingly, the other division was strictly for Fedz contract work- oh, the irony!). During 1987 ('88?) the Fedz (in the person of IRS) made rather a lot of purchases via P.O., and was so "laid back" about [not] paying their bills, that the retail side of the house put in a strict cash-only policy on government purchases, and simultaneously placed a no-sale policy on them until their bills were paid in full (which never happened, and which means there were no further sales to the federales). -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sat Sep 8 14:13:37 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 16:13:37 -0500 Subject: Slashdot | A Critique of the EFF's Open Audio License Message-ID: <3B9A8A01.BA42961A@ssz.com> http://slashdot.org/articles/01/09/08/1333226.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sat Sep 8 14:15:06 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 16:15:06 -0500 Subject: Slashdot | NSA, The Technology Future, and Where It Is Message-ID: <3B9A8A5A.BBEBB5B5@ssz.com> http://slashdot.org/articles/01/09/08/0121250.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Sat Sep 8 18:51:02 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 18:51:02 -0700 Subject: FC: Sen. Hollings plans to introduce DMCA sequel: The SSSCA Message-ID: <200109090151.f891p2S71697@mailserver1c.hushmail.com> At Sat, 08 Sep 2001 10:50:29 -0700, "Thomas Leavitt" wrote: >The only response legislation like this deserves is massive, public civil disobedience. Stand out in front of the White House, with old Intel boxes running Linux and an open source MP3 ripper/player, and offer to sell them to passerby. Have 500,000 individuals be formal members of a general partnership (no liability shield) - force the government to throw us all in jail and take everything we own. We'll see what happens then! I don't think your response goes far enough. Those jailed have will have lost months even years of their lives. What will the Congresscritters lose? How will they pay them back once these laws are repealed? If I were ever arrested for drug possession or DMCA violation I know what I would do once released. The trouble with almost all who complain about this sort of crap is that is all they will do. They are too comfortable to take the actions they know are necessary. Most all the Declaration of Independence signers paid dearly. Tell me how many you think today are willing to risk it all as they did? I suspect until internal security forces patrol the streets (they are already setting up cameras in every major city) and quarter themeslves in our homes the sheeple will cower under their beds and thank God they have a job, a roof over their heads and can go to the church of their choice in Sunday. Got to go now and water the tree of liberty... From declan at well.com Sat Sep 8 16:07:03 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 19:07:03 -0400 Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: ; from measl@mfn.org on Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 11:35:13AM -0500 References: <20010908120204.A10705@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20010908190703.A18720@cluebot.com> On Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 11:35:13AM -0500, measl at mfn.org wrote: > Snotty messages from Declan are handed down from on high, whereas snotty > messages from the rest of the world will render the originator of the > missive as one who is 'not worth being taken seriously'. Hahahahahaha. Choate is a special case. -Declan From georgemw at speakeasy.net Sat Sep 8 20:41:01 2001 From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 20:41:01 -0700 Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: References: <20010908102128.A9509@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <3B9A825D.4326.3632C979@localhost> On 8 Sep 2001, at 11:53, measl at mfn.org wrote: > > On Sat, 8 Sep 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > > > On Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 03:31:11AM -0500, measl at mfn.org wrote: > > > (In fact, since 1996 and the "morphed child porn" law in effect, Photoshop- > > created fantasies have been illegal to possess, and people have been convicted > > under that law, and their convictions (mostly) upheld.) > > > > My point was that this is a natural outgrowth of existing child porn and > > obscenity laws, > > An outgrowth would imply that it is along a continuum that has the same > basic "footing". All of your above examples, from the traditional "kiddie > porn" to the Feinswine dirty pixel laws deal with visual imagery of the > photographic "kind". What we have here is distinctly different: no > pictures of *any* kind, real or constructed, *unless*, we are no > prosecuting the imagery that we are assuming is present in the mind of the > author. He is using *words*, not *imagery*. > > And why do you think that is significant? Once morphed pictures can be considered child pornography, the "real victim" argument no longer applies. Why should text be considered fundamentally different from drawn pictures? George From mnorton at cavern.uark.edu Sat Sep 8 19:31:28 2001 From: mnorton at cavern.uark.edu (Mac Norton) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 21:31:28 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: <20010908102128.A9509@cluebot.com> Message-ID: Is there a point to this discussion? If either one of you knew anything about the law you'd be dangerous. MacN On Sat, 8 Sep 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > On Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 03:31:11AM -0500, measl at mfn.org wrote: > > As I understand this story, the guy had a diary which contained written > > descriptions of things he would *like* to do, not a photo album of kids > > bent over a table... > > Your snotty message notwithstanding (I now regret taking you seriously > in the past, and I'll try not to make that mistake again), my point > was not to defend the law, as I made clear in the portion of my post > you conveniently neglected to include. > > (In fact, since 1996 and the "morphed child porn" law in effect, Photoshop- > created fantasies have been illegal to possess, and people have been convicted > under that law, and their convictions (mostly) upheld.) > > My point was that this is a natural outgrowth of existing child porn and > obscenity laws, and if you're upset at this, you should naturally be upset > at the entire framework. > > -Declan > > From amp at pobox.com Sat Sep 8 21:59:40 2001 From: amp at pobox.com (amp) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 23:59:40 -0500 Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: <20010906225856.A7373@cluebot.com> References: <200109070030.f870UJS68852@mailserver1c.hushmail.com> <20010906225856.A7373@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <01090823594000.09873@www.zeugma.nu> It's mostly the result of habit these days. Since the evil of Fedgov is so pervasive these days, it's easy to forget it's many Stategov minions. I stand corrected on that in this particular case. On Thursday 06 September 2001 09:58 pm, Declan McCullagh wrote: > I'm confused about "Fedgov" references. This was a state law and > a state prosecution and a state judge. Doesn't make it right, but it > has little to do with "Fedgov." > > -Declan > > On Thu, Sep 06, 2001 at 05:30:19PM -0700, keyser-soze at hushmail.com wrote: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > > > At 06:15 PM 9/6/2001 -0500, amp wrote: > > > > On Wednesday 05 September 2001 10:51 am, David Honig wrote: > > > At 09:49 AM 9/5/01 -0700, John Young wrote: > > > >Isn't what is new here is that the man did not publish this material > > > >as was the material of Joyce, Miller, et al? Nobody saw it except > > > >him and the cop who discovered it. > > > > > > Wasn't it his *parents* who read his journal and turned him in, hoping > > > for 'treatment' > > > instead of jail? Shades of David & Ted Kaczynski... > > > > > >Indeed. From press accounts, his mother turned him in. (That's how > > > Fedgov got > > > > his diary/notebook from what I understand.) The appelate decision that > > was recently in the news is that he pled guilty thinking he would get > > probation/treatment. The judge, in effect said, "I don't know why the > > hell you would have thought that. Lock him up!" > > > > >I'm concerned that Fedgov has been able to successfully prosecute this > > > > thoughtcrime using his own private writings. It could very well be > > possible that writing his evil thoughts down kept him from acting on > > them. I know that sometimes when I have a good rant building up, I have > > to just write it to get it out of my system. This case could well have > > unintended consequences if people finally understand that Fedgov doesn't > > give a rat's ass about any alleged 'right to privacy'. Americans > > allegedly have right to 'keep and bear arms' as well, spelled out on > > paper (currently being used as toilet paper in government offices across > > the land), but there are thousands of laws regulating against same. > > > > This may continue until JDF types with nothing to lose (e.g., diagnosed > > with a terminal illness) put selected DOJ, FBI and Congressional targets > > in their sights. > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > > Version: Hush 2.0 > > > > wmAEARECACAFAjuYFYwZHGtleXNlci1zb3plQGh1c2htYWlsLmNvbQAKCRAg4ui5IoBV > > n/9+AJ9eK/gSpH59ahQrotIOcYbOo8cHQgCeM0ki/sMKBda2tdCstCyN4LqFQWk= > > =1jll > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- TANSTAAFL, amp at pobox.com http://www.zeugma.nu/ Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic. From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Sun Sep 9 09:15:50 2001 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 09:15:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What Do Naked Children and Breast Cancer Have in Common? Message-ID: <200109091615.QAA30218@hey.fuh-q.org> No sooner has Peacefire put the final nails in the coffin of BAIR, an alleged AI application that purports to recognize porn, http://peacefire.org/censorware/BAIR/first-report.6-6-2000.html than we get this entry from the land of Ireland, which claims to do something similar. http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2001/09/09/stiireire01015.html As readers of this mailing list are aware, most pornography recognition software can't tell the difference between group sex and an autographed picture of Babe the Pig. Nonetheless, this story makes some amazing claims, amongst them... o That the software was originally developed for breast cancer detection. o That the software can recognize child porn through encryption codes and detect child porn hidden in otherwise inaccessible files. It would be amusing if this program could be tested by an objective researcher, and the results reported. I smell snake oil. ----- Dublin team cracks child porn code Lynne Kelleher A COMPUTER program invented to detect breast cancer will now be used by gardai to prosecute paedophiles using child pornography websites. Two Dublin biologists developed the tracking device, which can detect pornographic images hidden behind computer code or in otherwise inaccessible files. The technology was first created to identify breast cancer in tissue images. The inventors, Dr Dara FitzGerald and Dr Donal O'Shea, were first asked by gardai for help in tracing pornographic images on computers. British police and America's Federal Bureau of Investigation have examined the system and are planning to use it in their child sex abuse units. PixAlert Enforcer, launched last June, finds online pornography by searching for human skin in computer images. After police impound a suspect's computer, they run the program and it searches all the files in a few hours, a task that once took several days. While this program will cost police forces IR£7,500, two cheaper versions are also available for the commercial market. PixAlert Auditor, costing £125 per computer, is being targeted at the corporate sector, government departments, schools and libraries. PixAlert Monitor, priced at £60, is for discreet monitoring of home PCs by parents. "We worked on breast cancer, BSE and tuberculosis," said FitzGerald. "It was a very big and very expensive undertaking. People also come to us all the time looking for solutions to their problems and the gardai were looking for a computer program to access these images. "We used the high-tech knowledge used in the diagnosis of breast cancer for this program. Gardai told us there were so many images and files to search for child pornography, and it was a very onerous job." Employers are also becoming more concerned about workers downloading pornographic images on their computers, FitzGerald said. "We think the application will work in the workplace. Pornography on computers in becoming a big problem for employers," he said. A garda spokesman confirmed that the force is using the device with a view to purchasing it. "We are very happy with the product," he said. Gardai have been testing the system for nine months and have been working closely with the two scientists, making improvements to the program. British police have been testing PixAlert Enforcer for the past month. The inventors have consulted 29 police departments across Britain. Tony Gibbons, a director of BioObservation Systems, met the FBI last April. Muireann O Briain, director of End Child Prostitution in Asian Tourism, said she hoped police worldwide would be able to use this system to find images otherwise impossible to trace on a computer. "Paedophiles can put all sorts of encryption codes on their computer or use other means to try and hide the images," said O Briain, a Dubliner who is based in Thailand. "This is a great development. We still don't know the full extent of the abuse of children whose pictures are on the net. "An English police operation against paedophiles known as the Wonderland Club came across these problems. To become a member of this club you had to have at least 10,000 images. Every one of them showed a child in a pornographic pose. More than 750,000 pornographic images were seized in that first raid on more than 100 homes worldwide in September 1998. One of the seven men who committed suicide had such sophisticated encryption codes on his computer that police would never have been able to access the images." -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From measl at mfn.org Sun Sep 9 08:14:40 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 10:14:40 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: <20010908190703.A18720@cluebot.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Sep 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > On Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 11:35:13AM -0500, measl at mfn.org wrote: > > Snotty messages from Declan are handed down from on high, whereas snotty > > messages from the rest of the world will render the originator of the > > missive as one who is 'not worth being taken seriously'. > > Hahahahahaha. Choate is a special case. > > -Declan Why? Because it's Politcally Correct [in the Cpunk] world to blast him? P.C. is just as sickening here as anywhere else, and your plea of "special case" has no foundation - it is merely an attempt to dodge the bullet. The above excerpts are defacto proof of your hypocrisy. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From declan at well.com Sun Sep 9 08:40:20 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 11:40:20 -0400 Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: References: <20010908190703.A18720@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010909113826.0258b670@mail.well.com> At 10:14 AM 9/9/01 -0500, measl at mfn.org wrote: >Why? Because it's Politcally Correct [in the Cpunk] world to blast >him? P.C. is just as sickening here as anywhere else, and your plea of >"special case" has no foundation - it is merely an attempt to dodge the >bullet. The above excerpts are defacto proof of your hypocrisy. I have no interest what you call "politically correct" or not. But Choate has shown over a period of many years that he's not willing to engage in serious discussions here, and therefore is not worthy of serious replies. You, my friend, seem to be intent on following the same path, albeit a bit more snottily and quickly. -Declan From codeguru at fromru.com Sun Sep 9 06:21:51 2001 From: codeguru at fromru.com (Alexander Oustouzhanin) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 15:21:51 +0200 Subject: The willingness for Telecommute Message-ID: <1010909152151.197bd2f.c0a80102.ASIP6.3.1.20770@192.168.1.2> It is my distinct pleasure to express the willingness for Telecommute. Utilizing only the most modern computer language programming with a staff of talanted designers, which deliver a product of unparalleled quality, enabling us to proffer with absolute confidence and pride our help. Anticipating our services will meet your expectations and approval, looking forward to a long and mutually prosperous association, I extend to you in advance my sincerest gratitude and very best regards. Alexander Oustouzhanin Freelance Web Developer From codeguru at fromru.com Sun Sep 9 06:21:56 2001 From: codeguru at fromru.com (Alexander Oustouzhanin) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 15:21:56 +0200 Subject: The willingness for Telecommute Message-ID: <1010909152156.197be2b.c0a80102.ASIP6.3.1.20803@192.168.1.2> It is my distinct pleasure to express the willingness for Telecommute. Utilizing only the most modern computer language programming with a staff of talanted designers, which deliver a product of unparalleled quality, enabling us to proffer with absolute confidence and pride our help. Anticipating our services will meet your expectations and approval, looking forward to a long and mutually prosperous association, I extend to you in advance my sincerest gratitude and very best regards. Alexander Oustouzhanin Freelance Web Developer From ravage at ssz.com Sun Sep 9 14:36:44 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 16:36:44 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Rijndael in Assembler for x86? (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: 09 Sep 2001 16:23:30 -0400 From: "Perry E. Metzger" To: cryptography at wasabisystems.com Subject: Rijndael in Assembler for x86? Does anyone have an open source implementation of Rijndael in assembler for the Pentium? Perry -- Perry E. Metzger perry at wasabisystems.com -- NetBSD Development, Support & CDs. http://www.wasabisystems.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From measl at mfn.org Sun Sep 9 15:24:17 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 17:24:17 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010909113826.0258b670@mail.well.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Sep 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > You, my friend, Let's get something *perfectly* straight: I am NOT your "friend". > -Declan -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From freematt at coil.com Sun Sep 9 14:35:17 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 17:35:17 -0400 Subject: More (Was Re: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change) Message-ID: http://libpub.dispatch.com/cgi-bin/documentv1?DBLIST=cd01&DOCNUM=38993 &TERMV=257:5:262:6:133266:5:133271:6: SEX DIARIST HAD GOOD COUNSEL, HIS FORMER LAWYER SAYS Friday, September 7, 2001 NEWS 01F By Tim Doulin Dispatch Staff Reporter Illustration: Photo If Brian Dalton hopes to have his conviction for pandering obscenity thrown out, his new attorneys will have to prove he received poor legal counsel. But the attorney who represented Dalton said that wasn't the case. "With all the facts that I know, I believe he was effectively represented,'' said Isabella Dixon, Dalton's original attorney. As part of a plea agreement, Dalton, 22, pleaded guilty on July 3 to creating a journal in which he describes in detail the torture and sexual molestation of children. Dalton said the writings were fictional and were never distributed to anyone. Still, Franklin County Common Pleas Judge Nodine Miller convicted him of pandering obscenity involving a minor and sentenced him to seven years in prison. The case shocked lawyers who specialize in First Amendment and obscenity law. [...] ~~~ FreeOhio- Defiant Defenders of Individual Liberty. http://www.pandar.com/freeohio/ Subscribe to FreeOhio for news and opinion about freedom in the Buckeye State. Subscribing is fast, easy and free. Simply send a message to freeohio-subscribe at yahoogroups.com ~~~ From a3495 at cotse.com Sun Sep 9 16:05:36 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 19:05:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Anonymity without Cryptography Message-ID: Some of you probably heard this paper presented live...any thoughts? ~F. Anonymity without Cryptography (2001) Dahlia Malkhi and Elan Pavlov School of Computer Science and Engineering The Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Israel Abstract: This paper presents an encryption-free anonymizing network that is efficient to use, and does not require the use of conventional cryptography by the users of the network. The method, Anonymous Multi Party Computation (AMPC), uses a variation of Chaum's mixnets that utilizes value- splitting to hide inputs, and hence requires no "conditionally-secure" operations of its users. This is achieved under the assumption that there are secure channels between good participants, and under a suitable resilience threshold assumption that, in our worst adversarial scenario, is a square-root of the system. Our new paradigm provides users electronic privacy without trusting any computer to perform heavy cryptographic operations on their behalf in various applications, e.g., electronic voting. http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/malkhi01anonymity.html From a3495 at cotse.com Sun Sep 9 17:04:59 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 20:04:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: entrapment: an extended explanation Message-ID: Entrapment - Extended Explanation c. Bill E. Branscum It is clearly established that government agents may not originate a criminal design, implant in an innocent person's mind the disposition to commit a criminal act, and then induce commission of the crime so that the government may prosecute it. Such an exercise gives rise to the affirmative defense of "entrapment." People frequently read more into this than is actually there. Broken down, the preceding paragraph says: 1. Government agents: This applies to the actions of those working for the government or acting on behalf of those working for the government. A private citizen cannot "entrap" a criminal unless he is acting on behalf of the government - note that this does not mean that he cannot do whatever he wants to with the intention of turning it over to the government. The government must be held accountable for the "entrapping" action for entrapment to apply. 2. The government must not implant the idea to commit a crime in the mind of an INNOCENT person. The government can, and routinely does, implant the idea to commit a crime in the minds of criminals under controlled circumstances. For example, Mohammad the Mugger is going to catch a train to visit his Momma having no intention to rob anyone when he encounters a "drunk" U/C cop with a gold chain that would look good on him. An innocent man would get on the train without the chain - if Mohammad goes for it, he's no innocent man. He is, in fact PREDISPOSED to commit the crime. [The test you hear argued to juries over and over is, "would you do what he did under those circumstances."] The fact that officers or employees of the government merely afford opportunity or facilities for the commission of the offense does not defeat the prosecution. Where the police, in effect, simply furnished the opportunity for the commission of the crime, that this is not enough to enable the defendant to escape conviction. Also, there is no "sneaky bastards" defense. Artifice and stratagem may be employed to catch those engaged in criminal enterprises - in other words, just because the government uses a pretext to set the person up, that does not negate the potential for successful prosecution. It is truly amazing how many people believe that they can ask a person if they are a cop and cry foul if they say, "No" and then arrest them. In the event that a criminal defendant raises the issue of entrapment, the question boils down to a two prong test. First, did government agents INDUCE the defendant to commit the crime? Second, was the defendant PREDISPOSED to commit the crime? INDUCEMENT occurs when the government creates a special incentive for the defendant to commit the crime. This incentive can consist of anything that materially alters the balance of risks and rewards bearing on defendant's decision as to whether to commit the offense, so as to increase the likelihood that he will engage in the particular criminal conduct. INDUCEMENT can be any government conduct including persuasion, fraudulent representations, threats, coercive tactics, harassment, promises of reward, or pleas based on need, sympathy or friendship. IF this first prong of the two prong test proves viable, the next question relates to PREDISPOSITION. PREDISPOSITION is the defendant's willingness to commit the offense prior to being contacted by government agents, coupled with the wherewithal to do so. If a defendant is predisposed to commit the offense, he will require little or no inducement to do so; conversely, if the government must work hard to induce a defendant to commit the offense, it is far less likely that he was predisposed. The relevant time frame for assessing a defendant's disposition comes before he has any contact with government agents, which is doubtless why its called PREDISPOSITION. In rebutting an entrapment defense, the prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant was disposed to commit the criminal act prior to first being approached by government agents. The ultimate principal at work here is, "When the government's quest for convictions leads to the apprehension of an otherwise law-abiding citizen who, if left to his own devices, likely would have never run afoul of the law, the courts should intervene." Finally, a word about a reality associated with affirmative defenses and appellate cases that you just don't ever seem to see in print. The way these things work in actual practice is that the government makes their case against the defendant, prosecutes him and, unless their behavior is utterly outrageously egregious, convicts them at the trial level. Guilty people do not prevail upon matters of technical merit at trial level nearly as often as televesion would have us believe. Joe Convict then files an appeal which they will lose UNLESS they persuade the appellate court that, VIEWING THE EVIDENCE IN THE LIGHT MOST FAVORABLE TO THE GOVERNMENT, there is no way a jury could have convicted them. In an entrapment appeal, the appellant must prove that no reasonable jury could have failed to recognize that the government induced them to commit a crime AND they were utterly lacking in predisposition. Think about this a minute - EVERY successful entrapment appeal exemplifies a situation where the government set up a person to commit a crime they would not have otherwise committed under circumstances in which it is so clear that NO JURY COULD SEE IT OTHERWISE when vhen viewed from the position MOST FAVORABLE TO THE GOVERMENT. That is scary and scarier still when you ask yourself how many defendants could not afford the appeal. If you read the case re Poehlman as cited below, you will find that he was convicted and served his time; it was only after he was released and the government tried to go after him a second time on the exact same facts that he filed an appeal and prevailed. In other words, even viewing the facts in the light most favorable to the government (which they are not supposed to do at trial level), it should have been clear to any jury that the government set him up to commit a crime he would never have otherwise committed. Read it - it's a pitiful case. Think about that before telling yourself, "They cannot do that - it's entrapment." Further Reading: United States v. Garcia, No. 00-10062, UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE NINTH CIRCUIT, 2001 U.S. App. LEXIS 300, December 15, 2000, Argued and Submitted, San Francisco, CA, January 5, 2001, Filed. Defendant's drug conviction was reversed and remanded, since he was entitled to an entrapment instruction when he presented some evidence that he was not predisposed to commit narcotics offenses, and some evidence of inducement. United States v. Lafreniere, No. 99-1318, UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE FIRST CIRCUIT, 236 F.3d 41; 2001 U.S. App. LEXIS 2, January 2, 2001, Decided. Defendant was not entitled to entrapment defense as he was not wrongfully induced to participate in drug deal and jury instruction was consistent with judicial precedent. United States v. Johnson, No. 99-3259, UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE SIXTH CIRCUIT, 2000 U.S. App. LEXIS 22723, September 5, 2000, Filed. Evidence supporting state senator's conviction for extortion under color of official right was sufficient where evidence showed he was predisposed to commit the crimes and was not the target of improper government inducement. United States v. Poehlman, No. 98-50631, UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE NINTH CIRCUIT, 217 F.3d 692; 2000 U.S. App. LEXIS 14628; 2000 Cal. Daily Op. Service 5157; 2000 Daily Journal DAR 6887, December 6, 1999, Argued and Submitted, Pasadena, California, June 27, 2000, Filed. Conviction reversed and remanded on finding as a matter of law that the government induced defendant to commit the criminal act and there was no indication that defendant was prone to engage in sexual relations with minors. (This is a fascinating case!!!) Read the full text Here. United States v. Brooks, No. 99-3448, UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE EIGHTH CIRCUIT, 215 F.3d 842; 2000 U.S. App. LEXIS 13688, March 14, 2000, Submitted, June 14, 2000, Filed, As Corrected June 26, 2000. Where a government agent first sold defendant heroin, then coerced him into selling the heroin back to another agent, these facts showed that defendant was entrapped as a matter of law. United States v. Barnett, No. 98-30365, UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE FIFTH CIRCUIT, 197 F.3d 138; 1999 U.S. App. LEXIS 30360, November 22, 1999, Decided, Rehearing Denied December 29, 1999, Reported at: 1999 U.S. App. LEXIS 34984. Certiorari Denied May 15, 2000, Reported at: 2000 U.S. LEXIS 3220. Court affirmed defendant's convictions, reversed codefendant's, for conspiracy to commit murder for hire; aiding, abetting attempted murder for hire. There was no evidence codefendant intended to be involved in murder. United States v. Finley, No. 98-2721, UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE EIGHTH CIRCUIT, 175 F.3d 645; 1999 U.S. App. LEXIS 8200, March 9, 1999, Submitted, April 29, 1999, Filed, Rehearing En Banc and Rehearing Denied June 8, 1999, Reported at: 1999 U.S. App. LEXIS 12000. Certiorari Denied January 10, 2000, Reported at: 2000 U.S. LEXIS 404. In defendant's trial for using the mail with the intent that a murder-for-hire be committed, evidence that defendant was predisposed to the crime precluded a successful defense of entrapment. State v. Preston, 2 CA-CR 98-0524, COURT OF APPEALS OF ARIZONA, DIVISION TWO, DEPARTMENT A, 197 Ariz. 461; 4 P.3d 1004; 2000 Ariz. App. LEXIS 71; 317 Ariz. Adv. Rep. 3, March 14, 2000, Filed. Requiring clear and convincing proof of entrapment was constitutional but, even though defense required admission of offense elements, jury instructions on presumption of innocence and reasonable doubt were unconstitutionally eliminated. SOOHOO v. STATE, CASE NO. 97-3891, COURT OF APPEAL OF FLORIDA, FOURTH DISTRICT, 737 So. 2d 1108; 1999 Fla. App. LEXIS 6495; 24 Fla. Law W. D 1219, May 19, 1999, Opinion Filed, Released for Publication June 4, 1999. Egregious conduct by government's confidential informant constituted entrapment sufficient to overturn appellant's conviction of drug trafficking, as informant was virtually unsupervised in structuring, distributing, and promoting drug sales. State v. Weaver, NO. 99-KA-2177, COURT OF APPEAL OF LOUISIANA, FOURTH CIRCUIT, 99-2177 (La.App. 4 Cir, 12/06/00);, 2000 La. App. LEXIS 3000, December 6, 2000, Decided. Conviction and sentence were upheld because appellant failed to prove that he was induced to commit an act that he was not already predisposed to commit; and the State established the validity of the prior guilty pleas and convictions. State v. Green, No. 99-KA-2847, COURT OF APPEAL OF LOUISIANA, FOURTH CIRCUIT, 99-2847 (La.App. 4 Cir, 11/29/00);, 2000 La. App. LEXIS 2965, November 29, 2000, Decided. Released for Publication January 19, 2001. Conviction and sentence of appellant for distribution of cocaine was affirmed as appellant failed to show entrapment, he was a fourth felony offender, and as such he was properly sentenced to life imprisonment. State v. Alford, No. 99-KA-0299, COURT OF APPEAL OF LOUISIANA, FOURTH CIRCUIT, 99-0299 (La.App. 4 Cir, 06/14/00);, 765 So. 2d 1120; 2000 La. App. LEXIS 1523, June 14, 2000, Decided, Released for Publication August 3, 2000. Because appellant quickly assured undercover officer that he could obtain cocaine in response to request, offered officer marijuana, and encouraged officer to wait for delivery, appellant was predisposed to sell cocaine. STATE v. BRADFORD, No. 32,747-KA, COURT OF APPEAL OF LOUISIANA, SECOND CIRCUIT, 32,747 (La.App. 2 Cir, 10/27/99);, 745 So. 2d 800; 1999 La. App. LEXIS 2952, October 27, 1999, Rendered. The evidence established intent and delivery elements to support conviction for distribution of cocaine, and the entrapment defense failed because officer merely presented defendant a chance to commit the crime to which he was predisposed. From massmail at lb.bcentral.com Sun Sep 9 15:47:26 2001 From: massmail at lb.bcentral.com (Anonymouse) Date: 9 Sep 2001 22:47:26 -0000 Subject: , , . Message-ID: <1000075646.36149.qmail@ech> ��������� �������! ��� ����� ���������� ? ���������� � ��� ������, ���������, �����, �����������. ��� ������� �����������, ��� ���������. ��� ������-̻ ���������� ��� ��������������� ����� ����������� � ����� �� ���� �������� ������ ������������ ��� ������������, �����, ��������, ���������� � �. �., ������ ����� ����, ��� ���� �� ����� ������������ ���� ������������, ������� ���������� ��� ������. ��������� �������� ������ � �������� ��������������� � ������������ �� ������ � ������, �� � �� �������, �� ����� ����������� ��������� ���� ������ �������� ����� � � ���������� �����. ������ ����� ������������ �������� �����. ��� ������� �����������, ������ �� ������ �������� ��������, ����������, �� � ��������� ������������� ��� �������������, ��� � ���������� �������������� ����������� �������. ��� ����� ����� ��� International Rectifier, Epcos, Bourns, Metex, unit-t � ��. ��� ������� ��������������- ��������� ���������, ������-����, ������, �������, �����, ����� � �.�. ��� �������� �������, ������������ ��� ������������, �������� �������, ����������� ��� ������ � ������������ �����������, ������, ��������� ������������ � �.�. ��� ������� ��������- � ��������� ����� �� ������������ ���������� ����������� �������� �������-������ ����������. � ������ �������� ���������, ������������ ����� ������,�� ������� ������������ �� ����� ����� � ��������: vielm.narod.ru ���������� �� ������ ����� ����� ��������� ����������� � ������������������. �� �� ������ ������������� ����������, ��� ����� ������� ������ ��� ���������, �� ���� �������� ��� ���������� ����� �� �������� ��� ��� ����� � � ���������� �������� �����. ���� ����������� � ��������� �������������� �� ����� �����, �� ������ ��������� �� ��� ����: (095) 275-89-94, ��� �� ����������� �����: tandiv at mail.ru . �� ���� ��� � �������� ����������� � ���, ��� ����������� � ���, �� �������� ����������������� ������, ������������ ��������� � ����� ������������, ����������� ��������� ������ ������. �� ���� �������� �� ������ ���������� �� ���������: 275-89-94, 746-68-78. _______________________________________________________________________ Powered by List Builder To unsubscribe follow the link: http://lb.bcentral.com/ex/manage/subscriberprefs?customerid=15131&subid=C5DAB078FD994ABD&msgnum=1 From jamesd at echeque.com Sun Sep 9 23:03:30 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 23:03:30 -0700 Subject: More (Was Re: Naughty Journal Author Denied Plea Change) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3B9BF542.1634.74E4FB@localhost> -- On 9 Sep 2001, at 17:35, Matthew Gaylor wrote: > If Brian Dalton hopes to have his conviction for pandering > obscenity thrown out, his new attorneys will have to prove he > received poor legal counsel. But the attorney who represented > Dalton said that wasn't the case. "With all the facts that I > know, I believe he was effectively represented,'' said Isabella > Dixon, Dalton's original attorney. If your lawyer advises you to plead guilty without a plea bargain in place with a known penalty. or the charge bargained down to something with a small maximum penalty, that advice is so bad as suggest some conflict of interest or impropriety on the part of lawyer giving the advice. One would expect such advice from a court appointed lawyer who is taking his orders from the prosecution. Even if you are guilty as hell and they will have no difficulty proving it, you can bargain something out of them by threatening to put them to the trouble of actually proving it. Even if what Isabella Dixon says was true, it would still be a shocking impropriety for her to say it, since she is trying to influence the case in the direction of keeping her client in jail. The very fact that she is saying it suggests that it is not true. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG N+gTXtqTXzV+LqsT3VhwRNgg4WD0U1FCGjZJHe2R 4m5oCaRdB2JNt4mAF+yMc6WYVrMpA1l8jJs96RihK From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Sep 10 05:07:48 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 07:07:48 -0500 (CDT) Subject: update.555 (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 11:29:40 -0400 (EDT) From: AIP listserver To: physnews-mailing at aip.org Subject: update.555 PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News Number 555 September 6, 2001 by Phillip F. Schewe, Ben Stein, and James Riordon EVIDENCE FOR A RE-IONIZATION ERA in the early universe [SSZ: text deleted] SUPERCONDUCTIVITY AT 117 K IN A BUCKYBALL CRYSTAL has been observed by [SSZ: text deleted] LASER-LIKE AMPLIFICATION OF ENTANGLED PARTICLES has been achieved by a University of Oxford team. Governed by quantum physics, entangled particles have much stronger correlations, or interrelationships, than anything allowed in classical physics. For example, measuring one entangled particle instantly influences its partner's state, even if the two particles are separated by great distances. Entangled particles are the bread-and-butter of quantum information schemes such as quantum cryptography, quantum computing, and quantum teleportation. But they are notoriously difficult to create in bulk. To create entangled photons, for example, researchers can send laser light through a barium borate crystal. Passing through the crystal, a photon sometimes splits into two entangled photons (each with half the energy of the initial photon). However, this only occurs for one in every ten billion incoming photons. To increase the yield, the Oxford researchers added a step: they put mirrors beyond the crystal so that the laser pulse and entangled pair could reflect, and have the chance to interact. Since the entangled pair and reflected laser pulse behave as waves, quantum mechanics says that they could interfere constructively to generate fourfold more two-photon pairs or interfere destructively to create zero pairs. Following these steps, the researchers increased production of two-photon entangled pairs and also of rarer states such as four-photon entangled quartets. This achievement could represent a step towards an entangled-photon laser, which would repeatedly amplify entangled particles to create greater yields than previously possible, and also towards the creation of new and more complex kinds of entangled states. (Lamas-Linares et al., Nature, 30 August 2001.) From ravage at ssz.com Mon Sep 10 05:20:31 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 07:20:31 -0500 Subject: Yahoo - Newsweek Cover: 'The Secret Vote That Made Bush President' Message-ID: <3B9CB00F.E91E6917@ssz.com> http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/010909/nysu009a_1.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Sep 10 05:40:27 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 07:40:27 -0500 Subject: SIG: Linux Today - Linux Journal: GPG: the Best Free Crypto You Aren't Using, Part I of II Message-ID: <3B9CB4BB.FA91596@ssz.com> http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2001-09-09-006-20-SC-SW -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From Wilie430 at hotmail.com Mon Sep 10 10:52:08 2001 From: Wilie430 at hotmail.com (Wilie430 at hotmail.com) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 10:52:08 Subject: -._.䡥`.- Register to win your Dream Vacation -._.䡥`. Message-ID: You have been specially selected to qualify for the following: Premium Vacation Package and Pentium PC Giveaway To review the details of the please click on the link with the confirmation number below: http://wintrip.my163.com or http://wintrip.chn.net or http://wintrip.yes8.com Confirmation Number#Lh340 Please confirm your entry within 24 hours of receipt of this confirmation. Wishing you a fun filled vacation! If you should have any additional questions or cann't connect to the site do not hesitate to contact me direct: mailto:vacation at btamail.net.cn?subject=Help! 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From Meggi141 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 10 10:52:10 2001 From: Meggi141 at yahoo.com (Meggi141 at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 10:52:10 Subject: <<<< Win One of 25 Dream Vacation Getaways!! >>>> Message-ID: <200109100140.KAA00802@posvan.co.kr> You have been specially selected to qualify for the following: Premium Vacation Package and Pentium PC Giveaway To review the details of the please click on the link with the confirmation number below: http://wintrip.my163.com or http://wintrip.chn.net or http://wintrip.yes8.com Confirmation Number#Lh340 Please confirm your entry within 24 hours of receipt of this confirmation. Wishing you a fun filled vacation! If you should have any additional questions or cann't connect to the site do not hesitate to contact me direct: mailto:vacation at btamail.net.cn?subject=Help! From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Mon Sep 10 08:37:12 2001 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 11:37:12 -0400 Subject: Sen. Hollings plans to introduce DMCA sequel: The SSSCA References: <200109080430.f884UoW14385@mailserver1.hushmail.com> Message-ID: <3B9CDE28.70807@dragonsweb.org> keyser-soze at hushmail.com wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > > WASHINGTON -- Music and record industry lobbyists are quietly readying > an all-out assault on Congress this fall in hopes of dramatically > rewriting copyright laws. > > > With the help of Fritz Hollings (D-S.C.), the powerful chairman of the > Senate Commerce committee, they hope to embed copy-protection controls > in nearly all consumer electronic devices and PCs. All types of > digital content, including music, video and e-books, are covered. > > > I think any Senator who signs on for this has earned killing. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: Hush 2.0 > > wmAEARECACAFAjuZn90ZHGtleXNlci1zb3plQGh1c2htYWlsLmNvbQAKCRAg4ui5IoBV > n+PdAJ9jUDWNMjCZz1zmymJde+ZNF4ugpwCeNHQzOK1ukMHqHhypLa1bhsfofg4= > =olMy > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > No, no, no. You don't kill the whores. Goddam, you wanna be known as a psycho serial killer or something? They're just doing their job, and you yourself may have need of them. Go for an honorable alternative. Beat up and run their pimps out of town. jbdigriz From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Mon Sep 10 10:11:48 2001 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 13:11:48 -0400 Subject: Melon traffickers --> Soul traffickers References: <200109060041.f860fcf08858@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: <3B9CF454.6010302@dragonsweb.org> Tim May wrote: > On Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 05:08 PM, Eric Murray wrote: > > >>This was discussed long ago on cypherpunks, in fact the cyphernomicon >>says: >> >> 8.9.7. Possible legal steps to limit the use of remailers and >> anonymous systems >> - hold the remailer liable for content, i.e., no common >> carrier status >> - insert provisions into the various "anti-hacking" laws to >> criminalize anonymous posts >> >>(all of 8.9 is worth re-reading for this discussion). >> >> > > Thanks. I try not to quote my own ancient writings, but it's clear that > a lot of the posters of the past couple of years are not familiar with > the older writings (which is sort of excusable...) and have not thought > deeply about the issues (which is not). > > >>Tim, do you really mean to say that you now think that a remailer >>is a publisher, not a common carrier? Maybe I lost track in all >>the devil's advocate indirection... >> > > I take no position one way or another. But "common carrier" status is > not something that is automatically achieved. The telephone companies > got it, to prevent phone companies from being shut down or from > listening in on conversations. I'm not an expert in the history of > "common carrier" legislation. (It may be described in Ithiel de sola > Pool's seminal history of the telephone and liberty, though.) > > My point was the claim some are making that government may "license all > remailers" seems unlikely. > > I often talk about "re-commenters" (hyphen added to emphasize the > "commenter" part). If I get mail, or letters, or e-mail, and then pass > it along to my friends or others, WHERE IN THE FIRST does it say I need > permission from government? > > Imagine someone sent to prison for the crime of passing along messages > he received. > > >>I think that being a publisher, while it gives many rights, is not >>nearly >>as good as being a common carrier. My understanding of "common >>carrrier" >>in this context is that the common carrier is not held responsible >>at all for the traffic that it carries. It can lose its common >>carrier status by editing-- then it's acting like a publisher, and >>is responsible for the material that it edits and publishes... >> > > There may be an item in the Cyphernomicon about this misconception, that > common carrier status is something people apply for. It used to be > claimed by some (don't here it as much anymore) than even bookstores > could be treated as common carriers "so long as they didn't screen the > books they sold." > > >>(follow the links inthat article to find that teh CDA gives some >>safe harbor for "provider or user of an interactive computer >>service" for editing content to get rid of obscene, etc. material.) >> > > The CDA did indeed give safe harbor...but what the CDA giveth, CDA II or > the Children's Protection Act can taketh away. > > >> >>I'm not up on the current state of this. >>Is it no longer possible to consider a remailer (or an ISP or >>BBS) a common carrier and thus "publisher" is the best to hope for? >>Or is it that "publisher", while carrying fewer rights, is much >>less likely to be held invalid? >> > > No significant precedents in this area that I have ever heard of. > > --Tim May > > > Common carrier status for ISP's is not automatic, under the '96 Telecom Act and later additions. You have to file with the FCC and promise to remove material anybody complains about, etc. in exchange for indemnification from liablility. I took a look at it and said "Fuck the dumb shit." Choate is right on this one. jbdigriz From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Mon Sep 10 10:59:32 2001 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 13:59:32 -0400 Subject: Melon traffickers --> Soul traffickers References: <200109060041.f860fcf08858@slack.lne.com> <3B9CF454.6010302@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <3B9CFF84.8010404@dragonsweb.org> James B. DiGriz wrote: > > Common carrier status for ISP's is not automatic, under the '96 Telecom > Act and later additions. You have to file with the FCC and promise to > remove material anybody complains about, etc. in exchange for > indemnification from liablility. > > I took a look at it and said "Fuck the dumb shit." Choate is right on > this one. > > jbdigriz > > In fact, IIRC, common-carrier status for ISPs as I describe above was actually implemented in the DMCA. Been a while since I looked at it; will have to check. It doesn't appear to have stopped anybody from getting sued for third parties infringing on copyrights, though. jbdigriz From jya at pipeline.com Mon Sep 10 15:58:20 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 15:58:20 -0700 Subject: UKUSA Courts Monitoring Message-ID: <200109102005.QAA27927@smtp6.mindspring.com> Wouldn't it be provocative to imagine that HMG and USG were exchanging monitoring of high courts under a "you watch mine, I'll watch yours" UKUSA pact. For example, this DNS entry: Host, master (HM-ORG-ARIN) hostmaster at USCOURTS.GOV Nortel Plc F.A.O. Andrew MacphersonLondon HarlowEssex GB (202) 273-2640 Fax- (202) 273-2651 Record last updated on 13-Aug-1998. Database last updated on 8-Sep-2001 23:09:15 EDT. Does a US network service administer the HMG high courts? Perhaps both nations distrustful of employees of native administrators, or perhaps both systems run by each other's intel agencies, either openly or under cover of companies. URLs of US courts restricted networks referred to in recent monitoring flaps as "DCN": http://docushare.circ11.dcn/ http://156.130.16.96/ From sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 10 16:00:28 2001 From: sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com (CJ Parker) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 16:00:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: William Jaquette Is Full Of Shit Message-ID: <20010910230028.14426.qmail@web20207.mail.yahoo.com> to: letters at seattleweekly.com "After shrinks found Elledge competent, [William] Jaquette [Elledge's Court Appointed Attorney] represented his client's death wishes, which was difficult because of his passionate opposition to the death penalty. "Everybody in a free society, Jaquette says, has the right to choose and direct his own defense." ~'Witness To An Execution,' Michael Hood Seattle Weekly, September 6, 2001 What a CrockOfShit!!! During my trial, Judge Robert Bryan forced Court Appointed Counsel (Gene Grantham) upon me, against my wishes, and the "right to choose and direct [my] own defense," disappeared faster than Jalapenos screaming through a Rat's AssHole. Contrary to all legal precedent, Judge Bryan decided that I was FitToBeTried, but not fit to represent myself, clearing the way for Court Appointed Counsel to refuse to mount a viable defense, and thus ThrowingMeToTheDogs. Three judges on the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals also declared a defendant's "right to choose and direct his own defense" to be a LaughAbleJoke easily circumvented on the smallest of pretexes in the Ninth Circuit. Thus, Mr. Jaquette's lame excuse to having "represented his client as his professional ethics require" is nothing more than an obvious attempt to deny his own willing complicity in the MURDER of his client. Would Mr. Jaquette have us believe that his ethics are of a higher than those of Judge Bryan and the members of the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals? That the Judges of the Ninth Circuit Court can ethically refuse a defendant charged with merely threating someone the "right to choose and direct his own defense," but Mr. Jaquette cannot ethically refuse to participate in the MURDER of a client charged with murder? When Mr. Jaquette stated "the death penalty makes killers of us all," he was obviously not speaking for the Judges of the Ninth Circuit Court, but merely for himself. I find it ironic that Mr. Elledge could be 'ethically' MURDERED by his Court Appointed Attorney, but not by the Ninth Circuit Judges who participated in my case, since their view is that the 'right' Mr. Jaqauette cites to excuse his complicity in the MURDER of his client does not exist. I can't help but wonder if, had Elledge chosen hanging instead of injection, Mr. Jaquette would not have been one of the 'witnesses' hollering, "Jump! Jump!" Sincerely, Carl E. Johnson #05987-196 "Proud To Be A Felon In Ameri%a" ['%' Is4Swastika] [4343 Lincoln Ave NE, Renton, WA 98056 (917)861-2044] ===== CJ Parker #05987-196 "Proud To Be A Felon In Ameri%a!" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com From sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 10 16:02:45 2001 From: sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com (CJ Parker) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 16:02:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: No subject Message-ID: <20010910230245.14729.qmail@web20207.mail.yahoo.com> On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Duncan Frissell Wrote In A Panic @ Panix: > Anyone with half a brain could put on a stronger defense than the two previous victims. Funny you should mention that, Duncan... The second day of my incarceration, after the initial hearing at which I was effectively denied my Constitutional Right to self-representation by having an attorney appointed to 'help' me and then had my request to proceed forthwith denied by the Alleged Judge in order to give the unwanted 'helper' time to "prepare" for what he had already declared to be an unstoppable formality, I was thrown into The Hole [TM] at the Corrections Corporation of America Federal Prison Facility in Florence, Arizona. I was put in a cold air-conditioned cell with no mattress, no bedding, and was provided with no clothing other than a thin pair of boxer shorts. I was denied reading materials and exercise and medical treatment and spent the next month and a half in what amounted to a sensory-deprivation environment with no way to keep track of either Time or Reality. In spite of this, upon having contact with my sister, Alia, I distinctly remember telling her that, despite the conditions in which I was being held, and being denied access to any sort of legal resources, that I was confident that I could present an effective defense to the charges against me, as long as I..."manage[d] to preserve half of my brain." Foolish me, I believed at the time that I would be able to manage to do so, given the fact that I had succeeded in doing so through a lifetime of dealing with disabilities and hard roads in a myriad of situations in which I did not always exercise the best judgment or get the best of life's breaks. However, I was unaware that the GovernMint would be subjecting me to Imprisonment Without Bail or even a Bail Hearing for almost a full Year on my way to what would later be declared to be a 'Speedy Trial' in some Mysterious Process which was kept Hidden from *me*, even though it was my Motion To The Court that was being (Secretly) Ruled On, and that, during this time, I would continue to be denied even the most basic of Rights&OR&Privileges that are commonly provided to Felons already Convicted of even the most Heinous of Crimes (e.g. - At Various Times -- Food, Water, Exercise, Medical and Medicinal Needs, Access To Legal Resources and Contact with My Family or even the Attorneys who were being appointed, against my wishes, to provide a Rubber-Stamp Representation that allowed the GooberMint Offal $chill$ to proceed smoothly with their prosecution without the bother of some Pesky Defendant presenting them with a Defense that would actually Question the GovernMent's Allegations&OR&Accusations. > CJ & JB didn't really even try. For example, neither got real lawyers. If the 10% of the Memory I have left Serves me correctly, I believe that every effort Jim Bell made to dump his 'unreal' lawyer[s] was denied by the Court. As well, I recall posts to the CPUNX List after JB's first arrest in which various individuals (including lawyers?) reported that their missives to Bell's attorney, offering assistance/expertise on Jim's behalf, were ignored by the attorney, and were no doubt never brought to his client's attention. As for myself, despite filing a variety of Pro Se Motions to allow me my Constitutional Right to Self-Representation, I had *forced* upon me an 'unreal' lawyer who was not only one of the worst legal representatives I have ever dealt with, but who also thwarted every effort I made to exert even the least influence or control over the direction or quality of my legal defense (as well as denying me access to, or even knowledge of, legal materials and advice that were being sent to me by family, friends and 'real' attorneys). Nonetheless, despite the Court's efforts to deny me access to a 'real' attorney, I did, in fact, have one working *for* me. The Irony, OfCourseOfCourse [TM] is that my Secret 'Real' Attorney was not even a Member of the Bar, at that time. His name was Greg Broiles. Greg directly provided me with an assortment of legal cites and cases which not only included *everything* quoted by the GovernMint Prosecutor, London, and the Defense Persecuter, Grantham, during the course of the AllegedInary Trial , but also included cases involving a wide variety of defenses which could have - and *should* have - been used. I ended up having another 'real' attorney, in retrospect...myself... After two days of perusing the material Greg sent me, I ended up rejecting a defense, which later proved to be the exact defense that Grantham (without informing me) was mounting. According to my reading of the very same law quoted by both the Prosecutor and my DeFarce Attorney, the Ninth Circuit Court believes that for a Citizen to be Guilty of the Crimes with which I was Charged, the Prosecution needs only to prove that A Casual Friend Of A Distant Relative Of The AllegedInary Victim thinks that MayBe the AllegedInary Victim PerhapsMightCouldHaveOrCouldRemotelyEnvision Feeling The Slightest Bit Uneasy over the Situation after Law EnFarceMint Offal $chill$ made every effort to ScareTheLivingBeJesusOutOf the AllegedInary Victim... In short, in light of the case, as presented, I agreed at the time, and still agree, with the beliefs of the Prosecutor, and the ruling of the Judge - according to Ninth Circuit Law. > We either have the money or the emotional resources to corral a defense. You appear to be assuming, of course (and not unreasonably in a Perry Mason / Ben Matlock TV-Reality Society) that 'money' and a recognizably 'real' defense would result in a different outcome. However, this would only be true in a situation where the Court actually FaithFullyFollowed both the Spirit Of The Law, and the Established Rulings of Previous Case Law. If, in fact, you review the Motions I presented to the Court, I believe you will find that the Court, in my case, Blatantly Ignored Clear, Established Precedents of basic Constitutional Law, and indeed had to jump through what *should* have been mBareAssing FaultyLogicalLoops (had THEY [TM] any SenseOfShame) in order to provide me with a 'Trial' in which I was Denied: 1. My Constitutional Right To Self-Representation 2. My Constitutional Right To A Bail Hearing 3. My Constitutional Right To A Speedy Trial 3. My Constitutional Right To View (&OR&Contest) The Evidence Against Me 4. EtcEtcEtAlAdInfinituuuuuummmmmm... As A Matter Of Fact [TM], if you take a look at the Appeal presented to the Ninth Circuit Court by 'real' attorney (he even uses 'Esq.' after his name on his business card, eh?), Todd MayBrown, I believe you will find that he quoted the Same Legal Cases, Precedents&OR&Arguments, in the Appeal Brief, that I presented in my Original Motions to the Court. The reason he did so, is that I was right, in the first place...and still am... Although I feel that MayBrown would have, given the 'money' (and thus the 'time') that your referenced 'we' have, proceeded with a variety of other issues on appeal which *should* have been raised, nonetheless success would *still* be dependent upon the Appeals Court itself actually following the law instead of Jumping Through New Improved FaultyLogicalHoops in order to JusticeFie Judge Bryan's Original FaultyLogicHoops in order to come to such an UnJusticeFiable Ruling that THEY [TM] had to rule it UnFit2BQuoted in any other Ninth Circuit Case. Todd MayBrown, Esq., did, in fact, to his EverLasting Credit, have the Decency &OR& Balls/Audacity, in his Appeal to the Supreme Court, to refer to the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeal's ruling as 'DisInGenuOus', which, as EveryBody &OR& His Proverbial Brother (nobody at replay.com?) Knows...can be Accurately TransLated as: "Lying Scum-Sucking PiecesOfShit who are Blatantly Ignoring the Law in order to Support an Abhorrent Legal Constitutional Abuses serving no other purpose than to ThrowASeriousFuckInto..." ...Yours Truly, ===== CJ Parker #05987-196 "Proud To Be A Felon In Ameri%a!" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Mon Sep 10 13:24:47 2001 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 16:24:47 -0400 Subject: Melon traffickers --> Soul traffickers References: <200109060041.f860fcf08858@slack.lne.com> <3B9CF454.6010302@dragonsweb.org> <3B9CFF84.8010404@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <3B9D218F.3030405@dragonsweb.org> James B. DiGriz wrote: > James B. DiGriz wrote: > >> >> Common carrier status for ISP's is not automatic, under the '96 >> Telecom Act and later additions. You have to file with the FCC and >> promise to remove material anybody complains about, etc. in exchange >> for indemnification from liablility. >> >> I took a look at it and said "Fuck the dumb shit." Choate is right on >> this one. >> >> jbdigriz >> >> > > In fact, IIRC, common-carrier status for ISPs as I describe above was > actually implemented in the DMCA. Been a while since I looked at it; > will have to check. It doesn't appear to have stopped anybody from > getting sued for third parties infringing on copyrights, though. > > jbdigriz > > http://www.loc.gov/copyright/onlinesp/ Copyright office, not the FCC DMCA is a piece of crap though. Probably illegal as hell, but IANAL. Anyway it's stupid to assume a liability that is not yours to begin with , for the dubious prospect of obtaining an alleged limitation on said liablity. I notice Napster has a Designated Agent registered with the Copyright Office. Lot of fucking good it did them. jbdigriz From sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 10 16:26:56 2001 From: sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com (CJ Parker) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 16:26:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Privacy Alert Message-ID: <20010910232656.56976.qmail@web20205.mail.yahoo.com> On August 32, 2001, at 25:35 EDT, John Gilmore wrote: > I just received this alarming news and thought I would >pass it along. > > Privacy Alert Foundation > WARNING! >Several years ago, the PAF warned consumers of the intrusion on >personal privacy by Safeway Food Stores, in which they offered >customers 'A Nickle Off On A Can Of Beans' for joining their >'Safeway Shoppers Club,' which required members to provide >Safeway with copious amounts of personal information about >the customer's private life, personal income, employment, and >personal buying habits. >Due to our warning, Safeway Food Stores was forced to begin >offering customers much larger savings in order to convince >them to part with information which could be used to intrude >on their privacy and perform consumer manipulation tactics on >'Safeway Shoppers Club' members. >Now, Safeway Food Stores is escalating it's Captive Consumer >Program to a frightening level, with its 'Safeway Super Saver >Elite Consumer Club,' which offers customers with incomes >exceeding $50,000 an extra 25% in savings, in return for >providing Safeway with the Personal Access Codes to their >credit cards, computers, and a copy of their PGP Private Keys. >An investigation by the Privacy Alert Foundation has determined >that the 'Safeway Super Saver Elite Consumer Club' Security >Director is a newly-hired employee who was recently released >from the Federal Correction Institute, in Three Rivers, Texas. >The PAF believes this warrents a Severe Consumer Warning in >regard to the 'Safeway Super Saver Elite Consumer Club.' [Court Ordered Fair Warning Notification] In keeping with a Court Order requiring me to notify recipients of my personal correspondence of any existing factors which would tend to implicate them as a suspect or accessory to any illegal or illicit actions on my part, simply as a result of overt association with me in any manner, recipients of this correspondence should be aware that I am currently driving around with the body of Jimmy Hoffa in my trunk. ----------------------------------------- Prisoner Of Whores #05987-196 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com From WebMaster1954 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 10 16:56:28 2001 From: WebMaster1954 at yahoo.com (WebMaster1954 at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 16:56:28 Subject: ADV: I bet that I make more money in the Web design business than you do. Time:4:56:28 PM Message-ID: <200109102324.QAA13221@toad.com> I bet that I make more money in the Web design business than you do. >From the customers I received last month I made $1560 income. I also profited on these people $1000 up front. And you know the funniest part? I didn't even design their sites! They did it for themselves! I bet your sales pitch doesn't come anywhere near mine. My sales pitch looks like this: Free Website! Free .com, .net, or .org name! Free First Month! Free Shopping Cart for E-commerce! Free Secure Credit Card Transaction Server Access! Free Website Editor! (Allows you to control your entire site from anywhere in the world with nothing more than your Internet browser!) Free Website Statistics Analysis! Unlimited everything! Unlimited Email Addresses! Unlimited Hosting Space! Unlimited Bandwidth! Unlimited Pages! Unlimited Capacity of items in the Shopping Cart! Fastest Websites!!! (Hosted on the best servers and bandwidth anywhere!) Website Promotion Options... There is nothing left to add to this service! If you can use a word processor, You can manage your own website! Only $35/month after your first FREE month! Everything you need to be doing business online NOW is here for only $25! (Limited time offer) I have been advertising this pitch on the front of my website for my design business 1 month, I have received over 40 signups. People SIGNUP EVERY SINGLE DAY. Almost, they bunch up on the weekends often. 1 month= $1560 income that comes in every month with no work! I will beat that number this month easily, but assuming I just keep up the same pace, next month will net $3,120 PROFIT. FOR A FACT I will be netting at least $10,720 a month by the end of the year. I got that number after subtracting $8000 to account for cancellations down the line. That is a ton of money! I can not even think of a way to not hit that number unless I completely stopped doing everything. My service is also better. You can't give anyone the as much value as I can. You can't give them the power to control their site as I can. You can't give them the prices that I can. You can't get them online as fast as I can. And even if somehow you found a way to do all that, you won't able to keep your customers as long as I do. Wow. Don't believe me? The interface I give my customers is easier to use than any other I have seen. It is by far the best web based interface you will ever see. A monkey would have a hard time making a site look bad with the software I include for my Customers. I charge them $35 a month and I only pay $10! I know I could charge a lot more for the service, but I am more interested in getting as many customers as possible now, than I am on making more on them. If you did the numbers to make sure I wasn't making them up, you'll see $560 missing this month. Where did it come from? There is an optional search engine submission program, that 70 percent of the people that signup opt for, I charge them $30/month. I pay $10. If they do decide they would like custom work done, no problem. I do it for them, and they don't try to bother me to change little things all the time on their site, because I give them the power to do it themselves, which they prefer. I like it to, keeps my time free for things I enjoy. In addition to being able to get at customers you can't, and being able to upsell them to all the custom design work I like, when ever I like, I bet I have a whole bunch of other things you DO NOT HAVE. Private Labeled to me Website Builder/Store Builder (Best Anywhere) Private Labeled to me Shopping Cart Private Labeled to me WebMail and Pop3 Service Private Labeled to me Secure Server Hosting Private Labeled to me Domain Name Registration Private Labeled to me Search Engine Submission Private Labeled to me Control Panel for FTP, email, user access... I can make as many new templates as I like to start them out from too. I also never have to pay for custom CGI work to provide E-Commerce solutions anymore. It is all done for me already, even the payment gateway integration. I use the same service my end-users use to do design work and It has cut my design time in more than half. I can make a complete E-Commerce enabled site in 15-30 minutes, email, shopping cart, ftp, running on the net! Can you do that?? Long story short. Unless you have some plans I don't know about, My business will be beating yours for sure in about 12 months. Can you compete? Are you getting customers as fast as I am? Are you making as much on them as I am? Is that money you are making staying with you every month? Is there a way for you to provide my customers something I don't? Can you say the same for yourself? I am going to let you in on SECRET now. Even though I know that my business will most likely be making a lot more than yours in 12 months, I am not greedy. I know that BIG money is not in being greedy. I know that No matter how much money my design company makes next year, If I combined 4-5 heavy hitters in the industry they would best me. How can I beat that? Easy. Use my connection with the company that made me what I am, and enabled me to do things that no other design companies could do. I am best friends with the president of the company that designed all the amazing server side software I use to power my business, and I know that if he wanted to, he could start turning on every webdesign company in the world as a dealer if they saw what I was making. So, instead of trying to convince him to not show anyone else the software I use to make so much money (impossible.) I figured out that the best thing for me to team up with him, show other people how I was making all the money that I was, and get cut in on the deal. Long story short. I am making a ton of money retailing my E-Commerce Solution, and I love it. Now that I have tasted that success, I have decided to take it to the next level, and give others the same ability to make that same money I do. I can get you in with the company that I deal with that provided me with all of those amazing things that make my service so awesome. My reward: If I introduce even a few people to my supplier so to speak. And those people become even half as successful with it as I have, I can have my buy rate reduced even further below $10 a month (which is already insanely cheap if you haven't noticed) Your reward: If you will probably be making even more money retailing it than I am. All I am doing is driving traffic to my website, people signup. You probably already have a customer base underneath you that would love the product, and are more likely to offer the custom design work than I. I don't do flash, and I don't even advertise on my site that I do custom design work at all. You know, I'll tell you the truth, this interface is so easy that anyone could do it. HTML knowledge or not, really anyone can be a full Design/Hosting/E-Commerce solution provider with this. They even will bill your customers for free for you. Saved me the trouble of getting another merchant account to accept credit cards for this. I paid over $2000 for the privledge of being able to do what I do. I am extremely happy about that because I know people who have paid over $7,000 to do the same. The ball game has changed though. They want to bring on successful dealers like me NOW. And to make this easier, they have dropped the pricing to $99, $299, or $999 depending on how good you want your buy rates. At $999 they are even eating the setup fees ($0 gets your customer a free domain name, and first month). Since I know how powerful a sales tool my website is, and I want everyone I bring on to be as successful as possible, I will even give you a copy of my website (customized to look like you invented it though) hosted for free to sell from. I know it works because I get signups every day. Then you are almost guaranteed to make a ton of money with it, as long as you get traffic to it. If you want to see some of the sites built by my solution, the site I have great success selling from, or how I make all the money I do with it, and how you can to, or to show awesome the software is to use, call me or email me. mailto:Webmaster1954 at yahoo.com 1-888-549-0766 or 1-954-585-6460 This week only. 11-7 EST. If you do not wish to receive email from me, email: emialjklmnop at yahoo.com or call. From sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 10 17:42:06 2001 From: sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com (CJ Parker) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 17:42:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Half A Brain Message-ID: <20010911004206.98461.qmail@web20203.mail.yahoo.com> ===== CJ Parker #05987-196 "Proud To Be A Felon In Ameri%a!" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Duncan Frissell - Half A Brain.doc Type: application/msword Size: 17920 bytes Desc: Duncan Frissell - Half A Brain.doc URL: From tcmay at got.net Mon Sep 10 18:15:03 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 18:15:03 -0700 Subject: federal bureaucrats, frequent fliers? In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010910142542.025c2cb0@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <200109110116.f8B1GGf29819@slack.lne.com> On Monday, September 10, 2001, at 05:33 PM, Declan McCullagh wrote: > Somehow this just seems really wrong... > > 3. Frequent flier legislation passes Senate committee By Tanya N. > Ballard An amendment to the Defense authorization bill (S. 1155) > allowing military personnel and federal workers to keep the frequent > flier miles they earn while traveling on the government's dime, was > approved by the Senate Armed Services Committee Friday. Senate > Governmental Affairs Committee Chairman Joseph Lieberman, D-Conn., > sponsored the amendment along with Sen. John Warner, R-Va. In August > Warner introduced S. 1369, a Senate bill that would have extended the > benefit to federal employees. The Defense authorization amendment would > allow military personnel, foreign service members, their families and > others who travel on official government business to keep their > frequent flier miles. "Soldiers, sailors, pilots, and Marines are on > call 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, prepared to go into harm's way," > Lieberman explained. "Letting them take advantage of frequent flier > programs--which cost the taxpayer absolutely nothing--is a small > gesture, but one that can mean a lot for morale." The Federal > Acquisition Streamlining Act of 1994 (Public Law 103-355) prohibits > federal employees from accepting promotional items they receive while > traveling at government expense. Those items included frequent flier > miles, upgrades and access to carrier clubs or facilities. Full story: > http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0901/091001t1.htm > Those same bureaucrats previously ruled (through the IRS tax code) that employees would be taxed at their normal tax rates on the putative market value of any "air miles" their employers allowed them to keep. Seem the various equal protection laws would forbid any special tax benefits for "military and federal" employees. However, since we are now an adhocracy, nothing more will be heard of this argument, least of all in the courts. --Tim May From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Mon Sep 10 10:11:02 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 19:11:02 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: IP: LITTLE BROTHER MAY BE WATCHING YOU (WITH X10 VIDEOCAMS): fromnewsscan daily (fwd) Message-ID: -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 12:56:41 -0400 From: David Farber Reply-To: farber at cis.upenn.edu To: ip-sub-1 at majordomo.pobox.com Subject: IP: LITTLE BROTHER MAY BE WATCHING YOU (WITH X10 VIDEOCAMS): from newsscan daily > > A company called X10 Wireless Technology is marketing its tiny color > video cameras for their use in keeping an eye on your kids or even > engaging in voyeuristic activity. One ad for the $79.99 device > displays a bare-backed woman and the headline "Quit Spying on People! > (we never told you to do that)." The technology uses radio frequencies > for communication among devices within a 100-foot radius, and > represents a development that one attorney says "is outstripping > everything we once contemplated about privacy." X10 devices have been > found planted secretly in such places as college shower rooms, > attorneys' offices, and corporate meeting rooms. (San Jose Mercury > News 10 Sep 2001) > http://www.siliconvalley.com/docs/news/svfront/027254.htm For archives see: http://www.interesting-people.org/ From info at giganetstore.com Mon Sep 10 11:45:59 2001 From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 19:45:59 +0100 Subject: Quinzena Microsoft Message-ID: <0e27a5945180a91WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com> Quinzena Microsoft De 10 a 24 de Setembro a Giganetstore.com oferece uma t-shirt Novidades Microsoft 2001 na compra de qualquer artigo microsoft. Temos também, para os aficionados de simuladores de voo, um passatempo onde pode ganhar um livro com todas as tacticas e dicas para o Combat Flight Simulator II. Veja alguns de muitos artigos microsoft que pode comprar na nossa loja. ----- Windows 2000 Professional ver. Completa (Pt) 89.040$00 Office XP Professional ver. Completa (Pt) 163.330$00 Intellimouse Explorer Optical 9.480$00 ----- Age of Empires II "Age of King" (Inglês) 7.840$00 Age of Empires II "The Conquerors Expansion" (Inglês - Expansão) 5.620$00 Combat Flight Simulator II The Pacific Theater 7.840$00 ----- SideWinder Dual Strike Gamepad - PC 8.310$00 Visual Basic 6.0 Professional ver. Completa 143.560$00 SideWinder Precision Racing Wheel PC 12.400$00 ----- Ver mais artigos » Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site http:\\www.giganetstore.com , ir à edição do seu registo e retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das nossas promoções e novos serviços. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 7731 bytes Desc: not available URL: From honig at sprynet.com Mon Sep 10 19:59:23 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 19:59:23 -0700 Subject: Melon traffickers --> Soul traffickers In-Reply-To: <3B9CFF84.8010404@dragonsweb.org> References: <200109060041.f860fcf08858@slack.lne.com> <3B9CF454.6010302@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010910195923.00950900@pop.sprynet.com> At 01:59 PM 9/10/01 -0400, James B. DiGriz wrote: >In fact, IIRC, common-carrier status for ISPs as I describe above was >actually implemented in the DMCA. Been a while since I looked at it; >will have to check. It doesn't appear to have stopped anybody from >getting sued for third parties infringing on copyrights, though. > >jbdigriz Implemented. Curious. The DMCA may have acknowledged that ISPs have immunity, being mere conduits, but the courts (sh|w)ould have decided that anyway. From declan at well.com Mon Sep 10 17:33:40 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 20:33:40 -0400 Subject: federal bureaucrats, frequent fliers? Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010910142542.025c2cb0@mail.well.com> Somehow this just seems really wrong... 3. Frequent flier legislation passes Senate committee By Tanya N. Ballard An amendment to the Defense authorization bill (S. 1155) allowing military personnel and federal workers to keep the frequent flier miles they earn while traveling on the government's dime, was approved by the Senate Armed Services Committee Friday. Senate Governmental Affairs Committee Chairman Joseph Lieberman, D-Conn., sponsored the amendment along with Sen. John Warner, R-Va. In August Warner introduced S. 1369, a Senate bill that would have extended the benefit to federal employees. The Defense authorization amendment would allow military personnel, foreign service members, their families and others who travel on official government business to keep their frequent flier miles. "Soldiers, sailors, pilots, and Marines are on call 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, prepared to go into harm's way," Lieberman explained. "Letting them take advantage of frequent flier programs--which cost the taxpayer absolutely nothing--is a small gesture, but one that can mean a lot for morale." The Federal Acquisition Streamlining Act of 1994 (Public Law 103-355) prohibits federal employees from accepting promotional items they receive while traveling at government expense. Those items included frequent flier miles, upgrades and access to carrier clubs or facilities. Full story: http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0901/091001t1.htm From a3495 at cotse.com Mon Sep 10 18:03:02 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 21:03:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Sociocultural Implications of Biometrics Message-ID: New online PDFs of possible interest from the RAND Corporation: Sociocultural Implications of Biometrics The Army is considering how it can use biometric systems -- automated methods of authenticating an individual based on physical or behavioral characteristics -- to improve security, efficiency, and convenience. Recognizing that biometrics is not without controversy, however, the Army asked RAND's Arroyo Center to assist in an assessment of the legal, sociological and ethical implications. A new publication reports the findings. http://www.rand.org/publications/MR/MR1237/ Privacy and Emerging Technologies A recent RAND conference, sponsored by the Arroyo Center, looked at the question of how emerging technologies such as biotechnology, computer monitoring, and overhead imaging impact privacy and privacy policy. The conference drew leading scholars, government officials, privacy advocates, journalists, attorneys, technologists, and industry representatives. http://www.rand.org/natsec_area/products/privconfnav.html Modernizing the National Imagery and Mapping Agency Over the past year, RAND has provided staff and analytic support to the Independent Commission on the National Imagery and Mapping Agency. (See related article.) Recently, Kevin O'Connell, Manager of RAND's Intelligence Community program, testified before the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence on the findings and recommendations of the commission. http://www.rand.org/hot/nima.html From PaulMerrill at acm.org Mon Sep 10 19:00:27 2001 From: PaulMerrill at acm.org (Paul H. Merrill) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 22:00:27 -0400 Subject: federal bureaucrats, frequent fliers? References: <200109110116.f8B1GGf29819@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: <3B9D703B.32C01A0F@ACM.Org> In this particular case, the legislation merely removes previously imposed limits which lowered some citizens below the rest. PHM Tim May wrote: > > On Monday, September 10, 2001, at 05:33 PM, Declan McCullagh wrote: > > > Somehow this just seems really wrong... > > > > 3. Frequent flier legislation passes Senate committee By Tanya N. > > Ballard An amendment to the Defense authorization bill (S. 1155) > > allowing military personnel and federal workers to keep the frequent > > flier miles they earn while traveling on the government's dime, was > > approved by the Senate Armed Services Committee Friday. Senate > > Governmental Affairs Committee Chairman Joseph Lieberman, D-Conn., > > sponsored the amendment along with Sen. John Warner, R-Va. In August > > Warner introduced S. 1369, a Senate bill that would have extended the > > benefit to federal employees. The Defense authorization amendment would > > allow military personnel, foreign service members, their families and > > others who travel on official government business to keep their > > frequent flier miles. "Soldiers, sailors, pilots, and Marines are on > > call 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, prepared to go into harm's way," > > Lieberman explained. "Letting them take advantage of frequent flier > > programs--which cost the taxpayer absolutely nothing--is a small > > gesture, but one that can mean a lot for morale." The Federal > > Acquisition Streamlining Act of 1994 (Public Law 103-355) prohibits > > federal employees from accepting promotional items they receive while > > traveling at government expense. Those items included frequent flier > > miles, upgrades and access to carrier clubs or facilities. Full story: > > http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0901/091001t1.htm > > > > Those same bureaucrats previously ruled (through the IRS tax code) that > employees would be taxed at their normal tax rates on the putative > market value of any "air miles" their employers allowed them to keep. > > Seem the various equal protection laws would forbid any special tax > benefits for "military and federal" employees. > > However, since we are now an adhocracy, nothing more will be heard of > this argument, least of all in the courts. > > --Tim May -- Paul H. Merrill, MCNE, MCSE+I, CISSP PaulMerrill at ACM.Org From PaulMerrill at acm.org Mon Sep 10 19:04:18 2001 From: PaulMerrill at acm.org (Paul H. Merrill) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 22:04:18 -0400 Subject: federal bureaucrats, frequent fliers? References: <200109110116.f8B1GGf29819@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: <3B9D7122.DE996698@ACM.Org> Oops, forgot to point out that "federal employees" in general are still treated as sub-citizens, Frequent Flier benefits are still limited to military, Foreign Service, and their families. PHM Tim May wrote: > > On Monday, September 10, 2001, at 05:33 PM, Declan McCullagh wrote: > > > Somehow this just seems really wrong... > > > > 3. Frequent flier legislation passes Senate committee By Tanya N. > > Ballard An amendment to the Defense authorization bill (S. 1155) > > allowing military personnel and federal workers to keep the frequent > > flier miles they earn while traveling on the government's dime, was > > approved by the Senate Armed Services Committee Friday. Senate > > Governmental Affairs Committee Chairman Joseph Lieberman, D-Conn., > > sponsored the amendment along with Sen. John Warner, R-Va. In August > > Warner introduced S. 1369, a Senate bill that would have extended the > > benefit to federal employees. The Defense authorization amendment would > > allow military personnel, foreign service members, their families and > > others who travel on official government business to keep their > > frequent flier miles. "Soldiers, sailors, pilots, and Marines are on > > call 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, prepared to go into harm's way," > > Lieberman explained. "Letting them take advantage of frequent flier > > programs--which cost the taxpayer absolutely nothing--is a small > > gesture, but one that can mean a lot for morale." The Federal > > Acquisition Streamlining Act of 1994 (Public Law 103-355) prohibits > > federal employees from accepting promotional items they receive while > > traveling at government expense. Those items included frequent flier > > miles, upgrades and access to carrier clubs or facilities. Full story: > > http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0901/091001t1.htm > > > > Those same bureaucrats previously ruled (through the IRS tax code) that > employees would be taxed at their normal tax rates on the putative > market value of any "air miles" their employers allowed them to keep. > > Seem the various equal protection laws would forbid any special tax > benefits for "military and federal" employees. > > However, since we are now an adhocracy, nothing more will be heard of > this argument, least of all in the courts. > > --Tim May -- Paul H. Merrill, MCNE, MCSE+I, CISSP PaulMerrill at ACM.Org From mattd at useoz.com Mon Sep 10 05:26:55 2001 From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 22:26:55 +1000 Subject: running out of tim.. Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010910222240.009f55c0@pop.useoz.com> 'Stokely,tim.search at www.prisonbitchgenerator.com reveals 'cream of meat' mmmmm.tasty! From aimee.farr at pobox.com Mon Sep 10 20:27:23 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 22:27:23 -0500 Subject: Sociocultural Implications of Biometrics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Faustine wrote: > New online PDFs of possible interest from the RAND Corporation: > > Sociocultural Implications of Biometrics > > The Army is considering how it can use biometric systems -- automated > methods of authenticating an individual based on physical or behavioral > characteristics -- to improve security, efficiency, and convenience. > Recognizing that biometrics is not without controversy, however, the Army > asked RAND's Arroyo Center to assist in an assessment of the legal, > sociological and ethical implications. A new publication reports the > findings. http://www.rand.org/publications/MR/MR1237/ Google also Mayfield v. Dalton, 109 F.3d 1423 (9th Cir.1997) which challenged a military DNA repository as violating the Fourth Amendment. Between the district court and the appellate, the military made some changes...shortening the holding period from 75 to 50 yrs, allowing for individualized destruction upon request after military service, delineating permissible uses, etc.-etc. Compare to the Brits, who are experimenting with chipping their soldiers: dog tags to pet chips. Although I'm on the consortium list, etc. My RAND pubs notice did not include the online version. Thanks, Faustine. Saved me some $. I always read your contributions. ~Aimee PS: Although elementary for many in here (but you are quite unusual), Understanding Surveillance Technologies by Julie K. Petersen, available on Amazon, has some "handy stuff" in it for a broad overview of surveillance technologies. (I always appreciate private notes to papers/refs on surveillance topics.) 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Have the opportunity to prosper in falling as well as rising markets! Learn how to be a better investor. Act now while supplies last! Sorry, students and brokers do not qualify for this offer. Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results. This is an options selling program which involves the risk of unlimited loss. <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> * To remove yourself from this mailing list, point your browser to: http://inbound.postmastergeneral.com/remove?Wallstreet * Enter your email address (cypherpunks at toad.com) in the field provided and click "Unsubscribe". The mailing list ID is "Wallstreet". OR... * Forward a copy of this message to Wallstreet at lists.postmastergeneral.com with the word remove in the subject line. This message was sent to address cypherpunks at toad.com X-PMG-Recipient: cypherpunks at toad.com <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> pmguid:rd.arj.1itt From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Sep 11 07:29:50 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 07:29:50 -0700 Subject: Fwd: What's going on? World Trade Center, Pentagon, Old Executive Office Bldg Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010911072819.03820190@idiom.com> apparently two planes crashed into the World Trade Center, and the top of one tower is gone. another either crashed the pentagon or bombed it. airports all closed. >Sender: Law & Policy of Computer Communications >From: "Stephen T. Middlebrook" >Subject: What's going on? World Trade Center, Pentagon, > Old Executive Office Bldg >To: CYBERIA-L at LISTSERV.AOL.COM > >I assume most folks are watching coverage of the plane crash into the World >Trade Center in New York. Here in our offices, however, we're watching >out our >windows at thick black smoke billowing from the Pentagon building across the >river. > >And word is that there was a bombing at the Old Executive Office building > >stm > > >********************************************************************** >For Listserv Instructions, see http://www.lawlists.net/cyberia >Off-Topic threads: http://www.lawlists.net/mailman/listinfo/cyberia-ot >Need more help? Send mail to: Cyberia-L-Request at listserv.aol.com >********************************************************************** From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Sep 11 07:37:40 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 07:37:40 -0700 Subject: What's going on? World Trade Center, Pentagon, Old Executive Office Bldg In-Reply-To: <200109111422.KAA04659@oobleck.mit.edu> References: <018201c13acb$3db92340$040a0a0a@domain> <018201c13acb$3db92340$040a0a0a@domain> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010911073333.03188d50@idiom.com> At 10:22 AM 09/11/2001 -0400, Seth Finkelstein wrote: > "Warren E. Agin" > > I've been trying to get on a newsite, but abc.com, abcnews.com, > > nbc.com, msnbc.com, cbs.com, foxnews.com and boston.com are all having > > problems. Yahoo and MSN are up. > > I can attest that boston.com is functioning in Boston. Can't >say if you could reach it from another part of the country. > > > I wonder if the problem is just server overload, or something else. > > There seems to be some major links out of action. I can't >traceroute to cnn.com, for example. I *speculate* it's collateral >damage from the explosions in Manhattan. That is, I sure wouldn't hang >around to keep computer working in this situation. Highly unlikely to be physical damage; it's just slashdotted because everybody with an internet connection tried it first. The San Francisco Chronicle is still working because it's early morning on the West Coast; they're sfgate.com, picture on the front page, and the AP story is at http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2001/09/11/national0920EDT0530.DTL From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Tue Sep 11 00:41:44 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 07:41:44 +0000 Subject: Debt of honor Message-ID: <200109110741.f8B7fiJ46838@mailserver1.hushmail.com> It seems quite a few have been making payments lately...eh? From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Sep 11 07:56:18 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 07:56:18 -0700 Subject: What's going on? World Trade Center, Pentagon, Old Executive Office Bldg In-Reply-To: <20010911104856.A24849@ils.unc.edu> References: <5.0.2.1.1.20010911073333.03188d50@idiom.com> <018201c13acb$3db92340$040a0a0a@domain> <018201c13acb$3db92340$040a0a0a@domain> <200109111422.KAA04659@oobleck.mit.edu> <5.0.2.1.1.20010911073333.03188d50@idiom.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010911075505.0318ca80@idiom.com> At 10:48 AM 09/11/2001 -0400, Greg Newby wrote: >Everything's just slashdotted. Forget the Internet, this >is television's game, or try the radio (shortwave or >domestic). even Akamai is slashdotted.... Here's the SF article printer-friendly version; sorry about the formatting. Planes crash into World Trade Center, creating horrifying scene; no word on casualties Tuesday, September 11, 2001 )2001 Associated Press URL: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2001/09/11/national0920EDT0530.DTL (09-11) 06:39 PDT (AP) -- AP National Writer NEW YORK (AP) -- Two planes crashed into the upper floors of both World Trade Center towers minutes apart Tuesday in what the President Bush said was an apparent terrorist attack, blasting fiery, gaping holes in the 110-story buildings. There was no immediate word on deaths or injuries. The president ordered a full-scale investigation to "hunt down the folks who committed this act" The twin disasters which happened shortly before 9 a.m. and then right around 9 a.m. In Washington, officials said the FBI was investigating reports of a plane hijacking before the crashes. Heavy black smoke billowed into the sky above the gaping holes in the side of the 110-story twin towers, one of New York City's most famous landmarks, and debris rained down upon the street, one of the city's busiest work areas. When the second plane hit, a fireball of flame and smoke erupted, leaving a huge hole in the glass and steel tower. "Today we've had a national tragedy," Bush said. He called it "an apparent terrorist attack." Ira Furber, former NTSB spokesman, discounted likelihood of accident. "I don't think this is an accident," he said on CNN. "You've got incredibly good visibility. No pilot is going to be relying on navigational equipment." "It's just not possible in the daytime," he added. "A second occurrence is just beyond belief." The towers were struck by terrorist bombers in February 1993, killing six people and injuring more than 1,000 others. All New York City-area airports were shut down, and several subway lines were immediately shut down. Trading on Wall Street was suspended. "The plane was coming in low and ... it looked like it hit at a slight angle," said Sean Murtagh, a CNN vice president, the network reported. "I was watching TV and heard a sonic boom," Jeanne Yurman told CNN. "The side of the World Trade Center exploded. Debris is falling like leaflets. I hear ambulances. The northern tower seems to be on fire." Thousands of pieces of what appeared to be office paper came drifting over Brooklyn, about three miles from the tower. A senior government official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the agency is pursuing reports that one or both of the planes were hijacked and that the crashes may have been the result of a suicide mission. The source stressed that the reports are preliminary and officials do not know the cause of the crashes. "It certainly doesn't look like an accident," said a second government official, also speaking on condition of anonymity. In 1945, an Army Air Corps B-25, a twin-engine bomber, crashed into the 79th floor of the Empire State Building in dense fog. In Sarasota, Fla., Bush was reading to children in a classroom at 9:05 a.m. when his chief of staff, Andrew Card, whispered into his ear. The president briefly turned somber before he resumed reading. He addressed the tragedy about a half-hour later. )2001 Associated Press From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Sep 11 07:58:01 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 07:58:01 -0700 Subject: Fwd: FC: Terrorists attack World Trade Center and Pentagon Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010911075728.0318f1c0@idiom.com> >Delivered-To: bill.stewart at pobox.com >X-Sender: declan at mail.well.com >X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 >Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 10:28:52 -0400 >To: politech at politechbot.com >From: Declan McCullagh >Subject: FC: Terrorists attack World Trade Center and Pentagon >Sender: owner-politech at politechbot.com >Reply-To: declan at well.com >X-URL: Politech is at http://www.politechbot.com/ >X-Author: Declan McCullagh is at http://www.mccullagh.org/ >X-News-Site: Cluebot is at http://www.cluebot.com/ > >[Police and other sirens are wailing in Washington, and high-profile >federal buildings have been evacuated. One of the Trade Center towers >apparently has collapsed, with a death toll I don't want to imagine. I >wonder if these attacks are over, and what kind of legislation we're >likely to see in response... --Declan] > >http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010911/ts/crash_tradecenter_dc_2.html >NEW YORK (Reuters) - A plane struck the World Trade Center in lower >Manhattan Tuesday morning, an eyewitness reported. > >http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/business/evac.htm > > The AP and Reuters are reported the following D.C. area evacuations on > the threat of terrorist attacks: the White House, the U.S. Capitol > Building, the Pentagon, the State Department and the Old Executive > Office Building. > > According to GSA press office, they are awaiting a decision on whether > to close government agencies in Washington. > > The New York Stock Exchange and Nasdaq Stock Market said trading in > stocks would not open until at least 11:30 EDT. > > Also the Federal Aviation Administration has shut down all aircraft > takeoffs nationwide and has directed all planes in the air to continue > to their final destinations or land at the nearest airport. > > The Sears Tower in Chicago is also being evacuated. > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- >POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list >You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. >Declan McCullagh's photographs are at http://www.mccullagh.org/ >To subscribe to Politech: http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html >This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------- From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Sep 11 08:23:34 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 08:23:34 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Re: What's going on? World Trade Center, Pentagon,Old Executive Office Bldg Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010911082207.031853e0@idiom.com> INteresting exchange from cyberia-l. Mark was online earlier, and sent an article saying Try NYC traffic cams: http://nyctmc.org/xbrooklyn.asp >Sender: Law & Policy of Computer Communications >From: "Ronald D. Coleman" >Organization: Gibney, Anthony & Flaherty, LLP >Subject: Re: What's going on? World Trade Center, > Pentagon,Old Executive Office Bldg >To: CYBERIA-L at LISTSERV.AOL.COM > >"Sterilized." No in or out of the City. > >Mark Milone wrote: > > > If anyone has info, please let me know what is the status of NYC > evacuation. I'm trying to get back to Brooklyn. I can be reached at > 212-935-6020 (the phone service is off and on) or milone at mindspring.com. > > > > - Mark From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Sep 11 08:25:24 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 08:25:24 -0700 Subject: Fwd: JYA's New York Report Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010911082446.03825230@idiom.com> >Delivered-To: bill.stewart at pobox.com >X-Sender: jya at pop.pipeline.com >X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 >Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 11:14:39 -0700 >Reply-To: Law & Policy of Computer Communications >Sender: Law & Policy of Computer Communications >From: John Young >Subject: New York Report >To: CYBERIA-L at LISTSERV.AOL.COM > >E-mail in Upper West Side of Manhattan is okay, local and national >TV too. Radio is out due to loss of transmitters on the collapsed WTC >towers. Our wire and wireless phones are on and off. Subways are >partly out. We cannot see the WTC area from the roof of our building, >so TV and Internet are all we got. I was about to leave for a meeting >in the WTC area when the news broke. > >Trying to locate a daughter who has a dot.com job near the WTC. >Many friends nearby too. > >A word on the structure of the WTC towers: > >The WTC towers had a distinctive structural system which utilized >the exterior wall framing for lateral bracing -- a so-called lattice >framework. This allowed minimization of internal lateral bracing >and opened up the floor plans. You can see the effect of that when >the buildings collapsed, with the lattice framework crumbling and >the interior imploding. The lattice works so long as it remains >intact as a system: if a part of it goes, then the whole system >goes. > >The planes punched holes in the lattice, one tower punched >on two sides, maybe the other too. Portions of the lattice of >the second tower briefly remained standing after the collapse, >then fell. > >The system was considered daring at the time of construction, for >it distributed loads more efficiently than legacy column-and-beam- >supported systems. Probably the legacy systems would not have >totally collapsed due to damage at upper floors, although floors >above the damage would have come down if columns were >weakened. > > >********************************************************************** >For Listserv Instructions, see http://www.lawlists.net/cyberia >Off-Topic threads: http://www.lawlists.net/mailman/listinfo/cyberia-ot >Need more help? Send mail to: Cyberia-L-Request at listserv.aol.com >********************************************************************** From lneil at ez0.ezlink.com Tue Sep 11 07:41:57 2001 From: lneil at ez0.ezlink.com (L. Neil Smith) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 08:41:57 -0600 Subject: MORNING OF HORROR Message-ID: MORNING OF HORROR By L. Neil Smith Special to _The Libertarian Enterpise_ First of all, expect never to learn the truth about what happened at the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, and elsewhere this morning of September 11, 2001, any more than we did with regard to the murders of Jack and Bobby Kennedy, Martin Luther King, at Ruby Ridge, Waco, or Oklahoma City. Ambiguity and uncertainty serve far too many political interests. Another certainty is that, although I'm told 50,000 people worked in the World Trade Center, more innocent individuals will die as a result of what the Old Media are lovingly referring to as a "lockdown" of Manhattan and other places, than any acts of terrorism that may have occurred. The military has just said they'll shoot down any plane they see flying. Only one civilian plane is in the air this morning, Air Force One; that's as grim a warning of things to come as I can think of. "Collateral" deaths won't just happen as a consequence, say, of somebody with a heart attack being unable to get to a hospital, but whenever and wherever some dumb kid in an army uniform gets startled by a car backfiring and starts spraying everybody and his pet poodle with automatic rifle fire. Or to whomever the martial lawyers decide it's safe to liquidate using this foul mess as a cover. Or, vastly more ominously, to people in the not-so-distant future who decide they must resist the police state that will inevitably result from these events. It's extremely difficult to think coherently about long term effects, let alone to get it all down in writing, when you learn that, not only were hijacked commercial aircraft used to commit these unspeakably evil acts, but that 90 passengers died helplessly in the first plane, and others yet unnumbered may have died in subsequent attacks. _Somebody_ has to think about it, though, or this situation will be used to turn the Bill of Rights off forever. Depending on the planning behind it, or who did the planning, it may already be too late. All airports have been shut down today, and I shudder to think about what flying will be like from now on. The Clintons, Schumers, and Waxmans will try to shut down the Internet, calling it a breeding ground for terrorism. The Bushes and Cheneys will "reluctantly" go along. Rush Limbaugh will cheer them on. What should those who value their freedom do? Every chance you have, from this moment on, whether it's on talk radio, or on the letters to the editor page, on the Internet while it's still possible, or in communication with everyone you know -- it's time for even the most apolitical to write to senators and congressmen -- emphasize two points: First, inform them that closing down the First or Second or any other Amendment is not an appropriate response to what's happened, and that any politician or bureaucrat in office who attempts to capitalize on today's horrors is committing the same sort of blatantly criminal act I've always insisted must be punished under Bill of Rights enforcement. Second, these things happen to nations with imperial ambitions. There has never been a major act of terrorism I know of that hasn't resulted from an act of government that violated somebody's rights. The way to keep this sort of thing from happening again is to stop those violations. Hideously enough, my new novel _The American Zone_, scheduled to be published next November by Tor Books, begins with an act very similar to this one, carried out to force the creation of a strong central government in the governmentless "North American Confederacy" that figures in so many of my books. As anybody who knows my work can safely predict, the evil scheme doesn't work and the villains are defeated. Life isn't as predictably pleasant as fiction. Happy endings are few and far between. But it's important to act swiftly if we're to preserve anything resembling the freedom that made this civilization great. Pass the word. ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************** From sandfort at mindspring.com Tue Sep 11 08:52:07 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 08:52:07 -0700 Subject: BLOOD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Folks, I'll be off to donate blood in the next couple of hours. I suggest you do the same. With tens of thousands of casualties in New York, I'm sure it will be needed. Note to those in the Bay Area: I think it would be a good idea to avoid BART--at least under the Bay--for the time being. It's a way too attractive target, in my opinion. S a n d y From ming at planetmongo.net Tue Sep 11 09:04:43 2001 From: ming at planetmongo.net (ming) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 09:04:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BLOOD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yeah, also the bridges are on alert. I'm staying home today as long as I can. Good luck everyone.. ming [This is a sig file] On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > Folks, > > I'll be off to donate blood in the next couple of hours. I suggest you do > the same. With tens of thousands of casualties in New York, I'm sure it > will be needed. > > Note to those in the Bay Area: I think it would be a good idea to avoid > BART--at least under the Bay--for the time being. It's a way too attractive > target, in my opinion. > > > S a n d y > From schear at lvcm.com Tue Sep 11 10:00:09 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 10:00:09 -0700 Subject: cryptorepression In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20010912035442.009e9810@pop.useoz.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010911095915.035f05b0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 04:01 AM 9/12/2001 +1000, mattd wrote: >Brace,brace,brace...rogue nations are dangerous while merely >wounded.Operation soft drills needed to deliver coup de gras.Not easy I >know,and even more difficult now,but the last empires past its use by >date.War of the flea now must become war of the killer bee. Been taking night courses at the John Young school for exposition? steve From pablo-escobar at hushmail.com Tue Sep 11 10:28:29 2001 From: pablo-escobar at hushmail.com (pablo-escobar at hushmail.com) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 10:28:29 -0700 Subject: Sospechosos probables? Message-ID: <200109111728.f8BHSTR81338@mailserver1.hushmail.com> Gary Condit and his personnel could be implied like attempt to clear it of the front pagination. From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu Tue Sep 11 07:48:56 2001 From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 10:48:56 -0400 Subject: What's going on? World Trade Center, Pentagon, Old Executive Office Bldg In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20010911073333.03188d50@idiom.com>; from bill.stewart@pobox.com on Tue, Sep 11, 2001 at 07:37:40AM -0700 References: <018201c13acb$3db92340$040a0a0a@domain> <018201c13acb$3db92340$040a0a0a@domain> <200109111422.KAA04659@oobleck.mit.edu> <5.0.2.1.1.20010911073333.03188d50@idiom.com> Message-ID: <20010911104856.A24849@ils.unc.edu> Everything's just slashdotted. Forget the Internet, this is television's game, or try the radio (shortwave or domestic). I had some luck with http://cbc.ca (Canadian Broadcasting Corp., on TV at Newsworld International), but http://www.dwelle.de (German) isn't responding either. Any other suggestions for good international sites? Yahoo dailynews has not been updated - though the search engine is running. Their news story about the planes hasn't been updated for over 2 hours. -- Greg On Tue, Sep 11, 2001 at 07:37:40AM -0700, Bill Stewart wrote: > > At 10:22 AM 09/11/2001 -0400, Seth Finkelstein wrote: > > "Warren E. Agin" > > > I've been trying to get on a newsite, but abc.com, abcnews.com, > > > nbc.com, msnbc.com, cbs.com, foxnews.com and boston.com are all having > > > problems. Yahoo and MSN are up. > > > > I can attest that boston.com is functioning in Boston. Can't > >say if you could reach it from another part of the country. > > > > > I wonder if the problem is just server overload, or something else. > > > > There seems to be some major links out of action. I can't > >traceroute to cnn.com, for example. I *speculate* it's collateral > >damage from the explosions in Manhattan. That is, I sure wouldn't hang > >around to keep computer working in this situation. > > Highly unlikely to be physical damage; it's just slashdotted > because everybody with an internet connection tried it first. > The San Francisco Chronicle is still working because it's early morning > on the West Coast; they're sfgate.com, picture on the front page, > and the AP story is at > http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2001/09/11/national0920EDT0530.DTL From schear at lvcm.com Tue Sep 11 11:21:40 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 11:21:40 -0700 Subject: WTC In-Reply-To: <200109111745.MAA21303@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010911112108.035438f8@pop3.lvcm.com> At 01:40 PM 9/11/2001 -0400, CDR Anonymizer wrote: > > Silverstein Properties signed a $3.2 billion 99 year lease with the > > NYC Port Authority on July 24th, 2001. > > > > http://www.forbes.com/newswire/2001/07/24/rtr308696.html Wonder who the insurer was? steve From elyn at consect.com Tue Sep 11 08:21:44 2001 From: elyn at consect.com (Elyn Wollensky) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 11:21:44 -0400 Subject: What's going on? World Trade Center, Pentagon, Old Executive Office Bldg References: <018201c13acb$3db92340$040a0a0a@domain> <018201c13acb$3db92340$040a0a0a@domain> <5.0.2.1.1.20010911073333.03188d50@idiom.com> <3B9E25DE.C2E6567B@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: <011001c13ad5$7dfc0d00$6b8d1d18@nyc.rr.com> OK, here's what's going on ... in NYC: two separate planes collided into each of the WTC towers @8:30 this morning. Each tower eventually collapsed. Seems very few people made it out from the top 40 floors of each building. It turned out that the planes where hijacked ... in DC: a plane crashed into or next to the Pentagon. a bomb of some sort went of next to the Old Executive part of the White House, and it now seems another bomb went off at the State Department. They have locked down NYC (no in-no out), evacuated the UN and subways are closed. In DC they are evacuating all Federal buildings (in NY, most where in the WTC), the pentagon, etc. and they are trying to get people to leave the Mall. At present they have also stopped all airline traffic in the US, however there are anywhere from 5-to-8 planes that are unaccounted for and there is a standby concerning whether they are looking for targets or simply mid-flight and need a place to land. There was just a crash in Pennsylvania and no one knows whether it was related to the attacks or not. That's about all I know ... hope this helps, elyn > Bill Stewart wrote: > > > > At 10:22 AM 09/11/2001 -0400, Seth Finkelstein wrote: > > > "Warren E. Agin" > > > > I've been trying to get on a newsite, but abc.com, abcnews.com, > > > > nbc.com, msnbc.com, cbs.com, foxnews.com and boston.com are all having > > > > problems. Yahoo and MSN are up. > > > > > > I can attest that boston.com is functioning in Boston. Can't > > >say if you could reach it from another part of the country. > > > > > > > I wonder if the problem is just server overload, or something else. > > > > > > There seems to be some major links out of action. I can't > > >traceroute to cnn.com, for example. I *speculate* it's collateral > > >damage from the explosions in Manhattan. That is, I sure wouldn't hang > > >around to keep computer working in this situation. > > > > Highly unlikely to be physical damage; it's just slashdotted > > because everybody with an internet connection tried it first. > > The San Francisco Chronicle is still working because it's early morning > > on the West Coast; they're sfgate.com, picture on the front page, > > and the AP story is at > > http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2001/09/11/nationa l0920EDT0530.DTL > > Yep, just a flash crowd. The BBC web site is all but unobtainable. > Transatlantic data traffic is slow, but flowing. > > If you are in Manhattan YMMV. > > Ken > From gbroiles at well.com Tue Sep 11 11:35:18 2001 From: gbroiles at well.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 11:35:18 -0700 Subject: FC: Anonymous remailer operators start to take remailers offline In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010911112716.03e70e40@pop3.norton.antivirus> While it's understandable that people want to avoid being swept up in hysterical backlashes against people involved in this morning's terrorist activity, it's worth remembering - especially for people interested in aiding law enforcement - that a lot of investigations begin and move forward with anonymous tips which are later corroborated by witnesses willing to testify. Given the clear indifference for human life shown by the terrorists, the ordinary witness-protection steps taken by law enforcement may not be comforting enough to allow aiders and abettors of this morning's actions to report their knowledge with confidence - so it may be more important than ever that the remailers continue to operate. Given that, does anyone have any tips for compiling the current Mixmaster release under FreeBSD or OpenBSD? The make fails for me on both platforms - it looks like a failure related to the recent integration of OpenSSL into the standard BSD distributions, which I've been unable to remedy thus far. At 01:17 PM 9/11/2001 -0400, R. A. Hettinga wrote: >Status: U >Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 12:42:22 -0400 >To: politech at politechbot.com >From: Declan McCullagh >Subject: FC: Anonymous remailer operators start to take remailers offline >Sender: owner-politech at politechbot.com >Reply-To: declan at well.com > >[From a remailer operators mailing list. The discussion arose in response >to the attacks. --Declan] > >******** > >From: Len Sassaman >Subject: status of randseed >Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 08:40:37 -0700 (PDT) > >Randseed's been taken offline, as a precautionary measure. All mail >currently destined for randseed will be bounced. > >We'll be back online at sometime in the future > >******** > >From: "J.Francois" >Subject: Opinions on Operations due to bombings. >Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 08:46:37 -0700 >Organization: MagusNet, Inc. Design * Develop * Integrate > >I no longer run an anon remailer but I still operate a public proxy. > >By now everyone is aware of the bombings here in the USA. > >So, do we suspend anon communications channels during the crises or do we stay >operational. > >Opinions? >-- >Jean Francois - JLF Sends... >Once at a social gathering, Gladstone said to Disraeli, >"I predict, Sir, that you will die either by hanging or of some >vile disease". Disraeli replied, "That all depends, Sir, upon >whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." > >******** > >From: Len Sassaman >Subject: Re: Opinions on Operations due to bombings. >To: >Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 09:23:44 -0700 (PDT) > >I'm not concerned that the remailer network is, was, or will be used by >the actual terrorists. What concerns me is the assholes who will >inevitably send bogus threats, tips, and other noise to various news >groups, federal offices, and officials. > >I don't want to get caught in the middle of this. I'm sorry. I'm currently >unemployed and don't have the resources to defend myself. At this point >in time, a free-speech argument will not gain much sympathy with the feds, >judges, and general public. > >And investigators don't need more noise to sort through. They'll have >enough as it is. > >I'd like to see remailers continue operating. But this needs to settle. >I may put mine into middle, mix only mode if I feel up to it.. > >******** -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at well.com "We have found and closed the thing you watch us with." -- New Delhi street kids From jim_windle at eudoramail.com Tue Sep 11 08:47:38 2001 From: jim_windle at eudoramail.com (Jim Windle) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 11:47:38 -0400 Subject: From Manhattan Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001 15:55:26 Ken Brown wrote: >> >Yep, just a flash crowd. The BBC web site is all but unobtainable. >Transatlantic data traffic is slow, but flowing. > >If you are in Manhattan YMMV. > >Ken I am in Manhattan. I can see a massive smoke plume from the roof of my building but the Met Life (formerly PanAm) building blocks my view of the World Trade Center itself. The smoke is also visible at street level down the avenues. Even uptown there is considerable emergency vehicle traffic headed in a generally downtown direction. Phone service is working but the system must be deluged as it is sometimes difficult to get a dial tone. The TV transmitters for NYC are on top of one of the towers so those are gone but I assume the cable feeds are still OK. The bridges and tunnels to NJ have been closed, the subway is also closed until further notice. The airports are closed to outgoing flights. Apparently police perimeters are being set up around the UN and other remaining potential targets. The stock exchanges and futures exchanges are all closed. The primary election scheduled for today has been postponed. The World Trade Center normally has 40,00-50,000 people wo! rking in it so casualties are likely to be very high, particularly as the upper floors of both buildings have now collapsed. The mood here is obviously tense but people are still going about their business. I have noticed a few people looking up when they hear a plane overhead. There is considerable anger as well as universal willingness to help out if possible. While Manhattan is physically cut off pretty completely there is no rush that I can see to get out (stranded commuters are resigned to spending the night most likely in hotels or with friends), nor any expectation of further strikes, though obviously the police are taking numerous precautions. All things considered it seem surprising normal, except for the visible smoke and extra high siren level, though tense, here, but of course I am uptown someone closer to the scene will no doubt have a different experience. Jim Windle > Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com From drtboi at bitslinger.net Tue Sep 11 11:52:16 2001 From: drtboi at bitslinger.net (drtboi at bitslinger.net) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 11:52:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cyber Scouts Motto: Be Prepared! Message-ID: On 11-Sep-2001 An Metet wrote: > I suppose the repression shit will really > hit the fan now, so, are all the good little > cyber scouts prepared to do their duty? Maybe it's a bit too early to assume complete military takeover of the US. I remember, during the election debacle, rumors on the cpunk list that Clinton was going to refuse to step down and let Bush take over, and that instead, martial law would be declared, and the US would be taken over by the military. I mean, you gotta be paranoid to be on this list, I assume, but you don't have to cry "military takeover of the whole world!" during every crisis. > knows -- the US gov maybe engineered the > whole thing. Remember the Pentagon plan > to shoot down an airliner. Go watch Scary as Bush's puppeteers may be, I don't think they did this. But I know shit about same. > "Wag the Dog" also be sure to watch > the director's commentary on the dvd > version of that. Check out the novel "American Hero", by Larry Beinhart. From jim_windle at eudoramail.com Tue Sep 11 09:00:36 2001 From: jim_windle at eudoramail.com (Jim Windle) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 12:00:36 -0400 Subject: BLOOD Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001 08:52:07 Sandy Sandfort wrote: > >Folks, > >I'll be off to donate blood in the next couple of hours. I suggest you do >the same. With tens of thousands of casualties in New York, I'm sure it >will be needed. > As a Manhattan resident, personally unhurt though I don't know about all of my firends and acquaintances. Thanks for donating blood and thanks for spreading the idea. Jim Windle >Note to those in the Bay Area: I think it would be a good idea to avoid >BART--at least under the Bay--for the time being. It's a way too attractive >target, in my opinion. > > > S a n d y > > Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com From freematt at coil.com Tue Sep 11 09:08:35 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 12:08:35 -0400 Subject: L. Neil Smith On Morning of Horror 9-11-01 Message-ID: From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Tue Sep 11 04:32:25 2001 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 12:32:25 +0100 Subject: UKUSA Courts Monitoring References: <200109102005.QAA27927@smtp6.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <3B9DF648.99901ED1@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> John Young wrote: > For example, this DNS entry: > > Host, master (HM-ORG-ARIN) hostmaster at USCOURTS.GOV > Nortel Plc F.A.O. Andrew MacphersonLondon > HarlowEssex > GB > > (202) 273-2640 > Fax- (202) 273-2651 > > Record last updated on 13-Aug-1998. > Database last updated on 8-Sep-2001 23:09:15 EDT. > [...] The name "Andrew Macpherson" struck me as vaguely familiar. I did some searches to update myself. He (or "an unknown entity using that name") has been an occasional contributor to Bugtraq & other mailing lists on SSH, email protocols, and security for BSD, NIS, NFS & other stuff. There is a suggestion for an encrypted Unix passwd changing scheme at http://http1.brunel.ac.uk:8080/depts/cc/Papers/netpassword-paper/paper.html Also he's been on the committee of UK Unix User Group, along with some people I actually know - so we are getting into true names territory here. Well, maybe he is a Secret Master of Repression of Telecoms. Of course it could be that, like nearly every other DNS record in the world, the name is that of the senior nerd on site & for whatever reason Nortel are (or once were) running their tech stuff from the UK. According to http://www.cs.duke.edu/csl/news/duke-cs-general/msg00000.html Bell Northern & Northern Telecom merged nt.com, bnr.ca & bnr.co.uk into one DNS domain in 1997 so it might well be that the whole thing has sometimes been managed centrally outwith the USA. It isn't at all surprising that Nortel register .gov names of course, even the Men In Black need to actually be connected to the Net to use it & I suspect that Nortel does quite a lot of that. But, even if this isn't evidence of it, I still think you USAns are paying our spies to spy on you so that your ones don't have to. Why else are there so many British military & comms people based in Canada? And at least some in Bermuda and the Bahamas. Not to mention Baltimore. There's a whole lot of listening going in in the world. But then you guys also had (till recently) big bases in Bermuda which is *our* colony, thank you very much. Gotta keep those sassy Bermudans in their place. Of course there were no British or US naval officers at all who liked to be there for a nice break & maybe some yacht racing at the taxpayer's expense, no, who would think such a thing... Ken Brown AM doesn't like anonymous mail though: >> Re: Use of reverse lookups with SMTP >> Andrew Macpherson (Andrew.Macpherson.1248566 at nortel.co.uk) >> Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:54:34 +0000 >> tim at uunet.pipex.com said: [...] >> | Yes, definitely. There are plenty of reasons why the DNS may be >> | unable to map a number to a name. None of them are good reasons for >> | refusing mail. >> >> What might these be, other than >> >> a A desire to be anonymous [good reason for rejection] >> b Incompetence in setting up ones Internet presence >> [ Those one does business with are not demonstrated incompetents ] >> c ISP incompetence [ Refuse this so that bad service goes out of business ] >> >> One should refuse all connexions which fail the >> number -> name -> set of numbers including original >> test, for all services, including SMTP.verse lookups with SMTP" [...] From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Sep 11 12:53:41 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 12:53:41 -0700 Subject: News website reference - may not be slashdotted yet. Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010911125242.031ab560@idiom.com> >Sender: Law & Policy of Computer Communications >From: Robert Helmer >Subject: Re: Helping the New Yorkers >To: CYBERIA-L at LISTSERV.AOL.COM > >Here's a news site with a great variety of stories >about the attack, best I've been able to find: > >http://www.ananova.com/news/index.html?keywords=Trade+Centre+crash&nav_src=more_on > >Cnn was down--Annanove is lesser known. Speedy access. > >Bob Helmer >Daily Rotation >http://www.dailyrotation.com >Shell Extension City >http://www.shellcity.net >St. Louis, Missouri From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Sep 11 13:06:37 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 13:06:37 -0700 Subject: What's going on? World Trade Center, Pentagon, Old Executive Office Bldg In-Reply-To: <00aa01c13ad5$3bee42c0$3354393f@josephas> References: <5.0.2.1.1.20010911073333.03188d50@idiom.com> <018201c13acb$3db92340$040a0a0a@domain> <018201c13acb$3db92340$040a0a0a@domain> <200109111422.KAA04659@oobleck.mit.edu> <5.0.2.1.1.20010911073333.03188d50@idiom.com> <5.0.2.1.1.20010911075505.0318ca80@idiom.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010911125754.031ae0e0@idiom.com> At 10:18 AM 09/11/2001 -0500, Joseph Ashwood wrote: >To avoid slashdotting my source so I can still get the information I'm = >just going to copy and paste the page: I apologize for posting html but = >the formatting and pictures don't show up in text. The mailbot deleted the pictures. >1-800 phone calls apparently not working... That's not a nationwide thing or an all-phone-companies thing - most NYC-based numbers would be hard to reach, and maybe some long distance carrier's database is in NYC, but it's unlikely they'd have only a single database. >Pentagon has confirmed that they major loss of life because of explosion >F16 fighters forced down the plane that was heading to pentagon .. they = >forced that plane down near Camp David I'd heard there was a crash in Camp David - this is first I'd heard of this. >Supposedly the president was supposed to be heading back from Florida. = >I'm sure that's going to be detoured somewhere else. He was making speeches from an AFB in Louisiana. The logical places to go would be Camp David (guess not...) or Andrews AFB or the Fort Ritchie, MD emergency site. The less logical place to go is back to the White House - it's a bit riskier, but would make good PR. From owner-cypherpunks at toad.com Tue Sep 11 13:30:38 2001 From: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com (owner-cypherpunks at toad.com) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 13:30:38 Subject: Undervalued Growth Stock Message-ID: <200109110532.WAA22339@toad.com> OTCBB Stock Alert's Last Two Picks: EMRG from $ .60 to $2.50 in 10 days for a GAIN OF OVER 400%!!! DICE from $ .49 to $1.62 in 7 days for a GAIN OF OVER 300%!!! HERE IS OUR NEXT EXPLOSIVE STOCK PICK: Diversified Product Inspections, Inc. (OTCBB: DPRI) BUY AT $1.25 SELL TARGET $4.60 = DIAMOND PLAY !!!! MAJOR CONTRACT ANNOUNCEMENTS AND HUGE NEWSLETTER COVERAGE THIS WEEK FOR DPRI !!! Revenues for DPRI, a 10-year old, fully-reporting company, have skyrocketed 600% higher this year to over $8 Million on substantial US Government and Insurance Industry contracts. DPRI's client list of over 50 major insurance companies includes Allstate, Fireman's Fund, Travelers, Liberty Mutual, Prudential, Hartford, and Nationwide. We are expecting significant news this week regarding increasing revenue and contract expansion from DPRI's Fortune 500 customer base. The stock has already bounced sharply from its 52-week low and will continue moving up immediately. We think the stock could easily climb above $4 in less than a month. WE ARE PROJECTING RECORD VOLUME AND PRICE APPRECIATION AS DPRI MAY VERY WELL BE ONE OF THE MOST UNDERVALUED STOCKS ON THE OTCBB!!! DISCLAIMER: OTCBB Stock Alert is a financial advisory network focusing on high-growth companies with the intent to offer its subscribers a great investment reward. It has the policy to acquire existing small newsletters, is not affiliated with any broker or dealer and is not a registered investment advisor. The information contained in this publication is for informational purposes only and is neither an offer to sell nor a solicitation of any offer to buy securities. Investment in smallcap companies is considered extremely speculative and may result in the loss of some or all of any investment made in these companies. Investors should use the information contained in this publication as a starting point for conducting additional research on the featured company in order to allow the investor to form their own opinion regarding the featured company. OTCBB Stock Alert has received five thousand free trading shares from a third party as compensation for the dissemination of this stock profile. Since we have a position in DPRI there is an inherent conflict of interest in our statements and opinions and therefore such statements and opinions cannot be considered independent. We will benefit from any increase in price for DPRI. We may liquidate our position at any time; before, during or after the dissemination of this stock alert. From owner-cypherpunks at ssz.com Tue Sep 11 13:30:40 2001 From: owner-cypherpunks at ssz.com (owner-cypherpunks at ssz.com) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 13:30:40 Subject: Undervalued Growth Stock Message-ID: <200109121330.IAA32185@einstein.ssz.com> OTCBB Stock Alert's Last Two Picks: EMRG from $ .60 to $2.50 in 10 days for a GAIN OF OVER 400%!!! DICE from $ .49 to $1.62 in 7 days for a GAIN OF OVER 300%!!! HERE IS OUR NEXT EXPLOSIVE STOCK PICK: Diversified Product Inspections, Inc. (OTCBB: DPRI) BUY AT $1.25 SELL TARGET $4.60 = DIAMOND PLAY !!!! MAJOR CONTRACT ANNOUNCEMENTS AND HUGE NEWSLETTER COVERAGE THIS WEEK FOR DPRI !!! Revenues for DPRI, a 10-year old, fully-reporting company, have skyrocketed 600% higher this year to over $8 Million on substantial US Government and Insurance Industry contracts. DPRI's client list of over 50 major insurance companies includes Allstate, Fireman's Fund, Travelers, Liberty Mutual, Prudential, Hartford, and Nationwide. We are expecting significant news this week regarding increasing revenue and contract expansion from DPRI's Fortune 500 customer base. The stock has already bounced sharply from its 52-week low and will continue moving up immediately. We think the stock could easily climb above $4 in less than a month. WE ARE PROJECTING RECORD VOLUME AND PRICE APPRECIATION AS DPRI MAY VERY WELL BE ONE OF THE MOST UNDERVALUED STOCKS ON THE OTCBB!!! DISCLAIMER: OTCBB Stock Alert is a financial advisory network focusing on high-growth companies with the intent to offer its subscribers a great investment reward. It has the policy to acquire existing small newsletters, is not affiliated with any broker or dealer and is not a registered investment advisor. The information contained in this publication is for informational purposes only and is neither an offer to sell nor a solicitation of any offer to buy securities. Investment in smallcap companies is considered extremely speculative and may result in the loss of some or all of any investment made in these companies. Investors should use the information contained in this publication as a starting point for conducting additional research on the featured company in order to allow the investor to form their own opinion regarding the featured company. OTCBB Stock Alert has received five thousand free trading shares from a third party as compensation for the dissemination of this stock profile. Since we have a position in DPRI there is an inherent conflict of interest in our statements and opinions and therefore such statements and opinions cannot be considered independent. We will benefit from any increase in price for DPRI. We may liquidate our position at any time; before, during or after the dissemination of this stock alert. From owner-cypherpunks at ssz.com Tue Sep 11 13:30:41 2001 From: owner-cypherpunks at ssz.com (owner-cypherpunks at ssz.com) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 13:30:41 Subject: Undervalued Growth Stock Message-ID: <200109110537.AAA16370@einstein.ssz.com> OTCBB Stock Alert's Last Two Picks: EMRG from $ .60 to $2.50 in 10 days for a GAIN OF OVER 400%!!! DICE from $ .49 to $1.62 in 7 days for a GAIN OF OVER 300%!!! HERE IS OUR NEXT EXPLOSIVE STOCK PICK: Diversified Product Inspections, Inc. (OTCBB: DPRI) BUY AT $1.25 SELL TARGET $4.60 = DIAMOND PLAY !!!! MAJOR CONTRACT ANNOUNCEMENTS AND HUGE NEWSLETTER COVERAGE THIS WEEK FOR DPRI !!! Revenues for DPRI, a 10-year old, fully-reporting company, have skyrocketed 600% higher this year to over $8 Million on substantial US Government and Insurance Industry contracts. DPRI's client list of over 50 major insurance companies includes Allstate, Fireman's Fund, Travelers, Liberty Mutual, Prudential, Hartford, and Nationwide. We are expecting significant news this week regarding increasing revenue and contract expansion from DPRI's Fortune 500 customer base. The stock has already bounced sharply from its 52-week low and will continue moving up immediately. We think the stock could easily climb above $4 in less than a month. WE ARE PROJECTING RECORD VOLUME AND PRICE APPRECIATION AS DPRI MAY VERY WELL BE ONE OF THE MOST UNDERVALUED STOCKS ON THE OTCBB!!! DISCLAIMER: OTCBB Stock Alert is a financial advisory network focusing on high-growth companies with the intent to offer its subscribers a great investment reward. It has the policy to acquire existing small newsletters, is not affiliated with any broker or dealer and is not a registered investment advisor. The information contained in this publication is for informational purposes only and is neither an offer to sell nor a solicitation of any offer to buy securities. Investment in smallcap companies is considered extremely speculative and may result in the loss of some or all of any investment made in these companies. Investors should use the information contained in this publication as a starting point for conducting additional research on the featured company in order to allow the investor to form their own opinion regarding the featured company. OTCBB Stock Alert has received five thousand free trading shares from a third party as compensation for the dissemination of this stock profile. Since we have a position in DPRI there is an inherent conflict of interest in our statements and opinions and therefore such statements and opinions cannot be considered independent. We will benefit from any increase in price for DPRI. We may liquidate our position at any time; before, during or after the dissemination of this stock alert. From owner-cypherpunks at toad.com Tue Sep 11 13:30:41 2001 From: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com (owner-cypherpunks at toad.com) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 13:30:41 Subject: Undervalued Growth Stock Message-ID: <200109110532.WAA22332@toad.com> OTCBB Stock Alert's Last Two Picks: EMRG from $ .60 to $2.50 in 10 days for a GAIN OF OVER 400%!!! DICE from $ .49 to $1.62 in 7 days for a GAIN OF OVER 300%!!! HERE IS OUR NEXT EXPLOSIVE STOCK PICK: Diversified Product Inspections, Inc. (OTCBB: DPRI) BUY AT $1.25 SELL TARGET $4.60 = DIAMOND PLAY !!!! MAJOR CONTRACT ANNOUNCEMENTS AND HUGE NEWSLETTER COVERAGE THIS WEEK FOR DPRI !!! Revenues for DPRI, a 10-year old, fully-reporting company, have skyrocketed 600% higher this year to over $8 Million on substantial US Government and Insurance Industry contracts. DPRI's client list of over 50 major insurance companies includes Allstate, Fireman's Fund, Travelers, Liberty Mutual, Prudential, Hartford, and Nationwide. We are expecting significant news this week regarding increasing revenue and contract expansion from DPRI's Fortune 500 customer base. The stock has already bounced sharply from its 52-week low and will continue moving up immediately. We think the stock could easily climb above $4 in less than a month. WE ARE PROJECTING RECORD VOLUME AND PRICE APPRECIATION AS DPRI MAY VERY WELL BE ONE OF THE MOST UNDERVALUED STOCKS ON THE OTCBB!!! DISCLAIMER: OTCBB Stock Alert is a financial advisory network focusing on high-growth companies with the intent to offer its subscribers a great investment reward. It has the policy to acquire existing small newsletters, is not affiliated with any broker or dealer and is not a registered investment advisor. The information contained in this publication is for informational purposes only and is neither an offer to sell nor a solicitation of any offer to buy securities. Investment in smallcap companies is considered extremely speculative and may result in the loss of some or all of any investment made in these companies. Investors should use the information contained in this publication as a starting point for conducting additional research on the featured company in order to allow the investor to form their own opinion regarding the featured company. OTCBB Stock Alert has received five thousand free trading shares from a third party as compensation for the dissemination of this stock profile. Since we have a position in DPRI there is an inherent conflict of interest in our statements and opinions and therefore such statements and opinions cannot be considered independent. We will benefit from any increase in price for DPRI. We may liquidate our position at any time; before, during or after the dissemination of this stock alert. From anmetet at freedom.gmsociety.org Tue Sep 11 10:52:14 2001 From: anmetet at freedom.gmsociety.org (An Metet) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 13:52:14 -0400 Subject: Cyber Scouts Motto: Be Prepared! Message-ID: <25c620df53ed332e20db09749479a828@freedom.gmsociety.org> I suppose the repression shit will really hit the fan now, so, are all the good little cyber scouts prepared to do their duty? Recall previous threads on non-internet dependant messaging systems. Work on the "parasitic wireless network", revive Fidonet in a new, digital format. And in the old string and tin can format if need be. Get that remailer code intertwinned with mojo, create a virus version, modify code red to spread remailers everywhere. I hope no one here is silly enough to think the BOR will survive this. Who knows -- the US gov maybe engineered the whole thing. Remember the Pentagon plan to shoot down an airliner. Go watch "Wag the Dog" also be sure to watch the director's commentary on the dvd version of that. From aaa at 163.com Mon Sep 10 23:11:30 2001 From: aaa at 163.com (aaa at 163.com) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 14:11:30 +0800 Subject: =?GB2312?B?xKfK9crWu/q/qKOs0rvVxb+otuC49rrF?= Message-ID: <200210120523.g9C5NWQ14089@waste.minder.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2648 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Sep 11 12:12:42 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 14:12:42 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Cryptography News: FORWARDED (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 08:59:06 +0100 From: Jason To: cryptography at wasabisystems.com Subject: Cryptography News: FORWARDED +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | LinuxSecurity.com Weekly Newsletter | | September 10th, 2001 Volume 2, Number 36n | | | | Editorial Team: Dave Wreski dave at linuxsecurity.com | | Benjamin Thomas ben at linuxsecurity.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ +------------------------+ | Cryptography News: | +------------------------+ * PGP opens up complete encryption source code September 7th, 2001 One of the first encryption products is made available to all. PGP Security -- a division of Network Associates that has been criticised in the past for being too proprietary -- has made available the electronic distribution of its complete source code for the PGPsdk, its cryptographic toolkit. PGP, which was one of the world's first encryption products and a de facto standard for encryption, is the foundation of all PGP Desktop, Wireless and Server products. The release of the source code will provide academic researchers and cryptographers the ability to review every detail of PGPsdk's cryptographic features. The move comes a short time after the US government recently relaxed export regulations on cryptographic source code, Santa Clara, California-based PGP Security said. All of article. http://www.linuxsecurity.com/articles/cryptography_article-3637.html * Quantum Crypto to the Rescue September 7th, 2001 This week has been big for cryptography. It's seen both technical and theoretical advances in next-generation quantum crypto systems and technology. It's seen a prototype enter its testing phase that could send secret crypto keys through open air to a satellite or across town. http://www.linuxsecurity.com/articles/cryptography_article-3636.html --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From aimee.farr at pobox.com Tue Sep 11 12:22:21 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 14:22:21 -0500 Subject: Terrorists attack World Trade Center and Pentagon In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010911102425.02103670@mail.well.com> Message-ID: > [ I wonder if these attacks are over, and what kind of legislation > we're likely > to see in response... --Declan] Perspective: "How ironic, that this is all happening under the shadow of the Statue of Liberty. Some of us may not have been born to see Pearl Harbor in 1941, but I can assure you that none of us will ever forget the attack of the WTC in New York City, September 11, 2001, a date that may become of more historical significance than we can currently imagine. Semper Fi," ...a New Jersey volunteer bringing "a pick, shovel...and a hard stomach." ------ Perhaps borders and transportation will widely field biometric and biochemical surveillance countermeasures. The surreptitious collection of suspected terrorist biometrics for border security, along with surreptitious polygraphing might have provided additional security, especially in coordination with intelligence agents in the field. (If part of an organized terrorist attack, our intelligence agencies *should have* their mugs.) That could have been an aerosol cloud full of blister, blood, choking agents.... Still, while we are all flying the flag, I just hope we don't forget what it stands for in the policy aftermath. To say we had forewarning is an understatement, and name-calling, retaliation, and yadda-yadda does nothing to address our intelligence and security failures. GAO reports critical of airport security: http://www.federaltimes.com/issues/crackdown.html http://www.janes.com/transport/news/jar/jar000616_1_n.shtml (It seems like there was something very recent, but I can't find it. I can't pull up GAO.gov.) I hope this will be seen as a mandate to engage in the aggressive acquisition of foreign intelligence sources, and a coordinated counterintelligence strategy. Human Intelligence might make a much-needed comeback. All we needed here was one placed HUMAN asset. One guy. ~Aimee From dis-list at rebelbase.com Tue Sep 11 14:46:12 2001 From: dis-list at rebelbase.com (Normen Nomesco) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 14:46:12 -0700 Subject: Fwd: [blah] [brians@wired.com: [heroictimes@hotmail.com: ]] Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010911144529.00ad86d0@mail.rebelbase.com> >Concerning the recently published Crime of Terrorism article: > > >I liked your recent commentary. And I hope in the posturing and mania that >is currently swirling, in our need, as a country, to exact retribution. We >pay attention, as a nation to these words. And perhaps question the >American policies, that have made us targets of terrorism. The American >policies and actions, both economic and military, that have pushed many >nations, no, many people to the brink. > >We must remember as a nation, that the horror and shock and loss we are >experiencing today, is just a shadow of the daily horror and shock so >called third world countries have experienced for the last 40years at the >hands of American interests. At the hands of the Word Bank, the IMF, the >UN, the CIA and the American Military. > >We must choose our next steps wisely, and if a "third world" faction is >found to be guilty of this attack, be cognizant of the fact that from a >certain viewpoint America's actions of the last 40years, our policy of >dictating, demanding, and if necessary debilitating and destroying smaller >countries, is nothing short of terrorism. And thus viewed, today's >attrocity while horrible, while unexcusable, while self destructive, while >dumb, is in some way understandable. Is human. > >It's what Malcolm X called... Chickens coming home to roost. You can not >strip others of value, others of hope, others of compassion, and not be >devalued yourself. Objectionalized yourself. Victimized yourself. > >So perhaps retaliation bombings by America, American retatliation on >foreign soil of enemies unclear, more innocent men, women and children >dead, while comforting to our ego, soothing to our vengeance, cooling to >our wrath... is not in our best interests. Breathes more terrorism, more >hatred, more martyrs. > >We have lost a lot of people today. And they, this mysterious, suspected >enemy, they have lost. The manner of their deaths tell us this. They gave >up their lives to smite their enemy, they died going forward, such people >are made out of horror. Too much horror, too much loss, and too little choices. > >So for us to respond, haphazardly, brutally, indiscriminately, again while >effective for our egos, is damning to our future. Because by creating more >horror, we create more of the people we strive to stop. We can not win a >war with people without hope. With people with nothing to lose. We can >not. We can survive it, but we can not win it. Because a man without >hope... is the deadliest type of man. > >He is a man without fear. > >Somehow America must start making less of these people and not more. And >maybe it must start here, with this tragedy, this horror, this loss, and >in the way we react to it. Maybe America must learn to meet the rest of >the world with courage rather than brutality, and reason rather than >rhetoric. We have to give our enemies hope, hope that they can be more >than the slaves or the slaughtered. Hope that there is resolution without >blood, and conflict without crisis. > >Hope. > >America has spent forty years of vaporizing hope, and the sovereign rights >of other countries. Forty years of killing hope. And we are producing >people both within and without our nation... school shootings, rogue cops, >political prisoners, serial killers, bombings, ... who are tired of living >without hope. We need, now more than ever, that hope. We need a >government... of the people, not a government over the people. America >keeps turning the screws on her own citizens, and throughout the world and >people cannot take it. America like a bully keeps pushing people, and >people are beginning to snap. > >A lot of people are dead. And someone will bear the guilt. But I think to >keep something like this from happening again... America must recognize >and carry her portion of that guilt. Her portion of the dead. > >These are the last days of Rome, and strength will not save America... >only mercy will. We must be, what we are not. What we have never been. We >must be... a beacon of liberty to other nations. We must care. About >people, foreign and domestic. We must care. It's the only way this two >hundred year old nation is going to survive. > >Gary Abraham From JonathanW at gbgcorp.com Tue Sep 11 15:18:32 2001 From: JonathanW at gbgcorp.com (Jonathan Wienke) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 15:18:32 -0700 Subject: Bombs In Kabul Message-ID: <91A43FE1FA9BD411A8D200D0B785C15E0677CF@MISSERVER> CNN is reporting some kind of air attack happening in Kabul, Afghanistan. No one seems to know if this is a retaliation, or just part of the civil war going on there. An ammunition dump is on fire near the city. FWIW -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 545 bytes Desc: not available URL: From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Tue Sep 11 07:55:26 2001 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 15:55:26 +0100 Subject: What's going on? World Trade Center, Pentagon, Old Executive Office Bldg References: <018201c13acb$3db92340$040a0a0a@domain> <018201c13acb$3db92340$040a0a0a@domain> <5.0.2.1.1.20010911073333.03188d50@idiom.com> Message-ID: <3B9E25DE.C2E6567B@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Bill Stewart wrote: > > At 10:22 AM 09/11/2001 -0400, Seth Finkelstein wrote: > > "Warren E. Agin" > > > I've been trying to get on a newsite, but abc.com, abcnews.com, > > > nbc.com, msnbc.com, cbs.com, foxnews.com and boston.com are all having > > > problems. Yahoo and MSN are up. > > > > I can attest that boston.com is functioning in Boston. Can't > >say if you could reach it from another part of the country. > > > > > I wonder if the problem is just server overload, or something else. > > > > There seems to be some major links out of action. I can't > >traceroute to cnn.com, for example. I *speculate* it's collateral > >damage from the explosions in Manhattan. That is, I sure wouldn't hang > >around to keep computer working in this situation. > > Highly unlikely to be physical damage; it's just slashdotted > because everybody with an internet connection tried it first. > The San Francisco Chronicle is still working because it's early morning > on the West Coast; they're sfgate.com, picture on the front page, > and the AP story is at > http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2001/09/11/national0920EDT0530.DTL Yep, just a flash crowd. The BBC web site is all but unobtainable. Transatlantic data traffic is slow, but flowing. If you are in Manhattan YMMV. Ken From jim_windle at eudoramail.com Tue Sep 11 13:13:57 2001 From: jim_windle at eudoramail.com (Jim Windle) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 16:13:57 -0400 Subject: Manhattan Mid-Afternoon Message-ID: I have been out trying to give blood. At this point all hospitals and blood donation centers have been inundated with volunteers and are only taking Types O+ and O- which are the universal donor types. Anyone in the area with those types should try to donate today. They are asking the rest of us to come back tomorrow or later in the week as they expect the need for blood to be protracted. All the subways were closed but are now running again as are the city buses, the bridges and tunnels are still closed to non-pedestrian traffic I hear. Most businesses have closed for the day and sent people home who are all walking on the street. Banks, drugstores and grocery stores are still open, and busy. Passing the &th regiment armory on Park Ave, the national guard are reporting apparently to help in cordoning off and cleaning up the WTC area. I also stopped at the grocery store on my way home, it was crowded, a bit more than the last blizzard, but there are still items on the shelves. There is a small amount of non-official traffic, but a number of streets are closed off. I did however see a couple of lage cranes headed downtown. Some street with power sub-station or telephone switching facilityes are closed off and barracaded with NYC garbage trucks or Dept. of Transportation concrete mixer trucks. There are a handful of F-15's circling over Manhattan, the r! est of the normal overhead air traffic is nonexistent at the moment. Police and police auxilary are out directing traffic at major intersections, manning barricades and walking about answering questions. I have not been south of mid-town so I can't speak of lower Manhattan where the attack was but here there has been no "panic". The sidewalks are very crowded, people are somber and tense but don't seem to anticipate anything else here in the city and ae quite willing to help if possible. The lines at both the Manhattan Blood center and at Lennox Hill Hospital were around the block with people waiting to donate blood. The plume of smoke is still rising and plainly visible from any rooftop and at ground level looking down the avenues. So far the infrastructure of the City seems to be handling things. The broadcast tower at the WTC is gone so some broadcast TV and radio are out, but other local stations are still on the air and the cable feed appears unaffected. The subways are not running but were apparently shut down for fear of a terrorist act. The subway line does not run through the WTC anyway. The PATH train to NJ does however. It is apparently out but how badly or if at all the tunnels were damaged I cannot say. All the financial markets are closed, it is not clear when the stock exchange will reopen, I have heard a rumor it may close for the week. It is not close enough I think to have been damaged but it seems that all downtown is shut off and will be for some time until the the fire is under control and the area has been cleaned up, that could be a while. Phone and intern! et service is still up though the network is burdened, earlier today I had some difficulty getting a dial tone but not now. Obviously the City has been the target of a major terrorist attack, but except for a few people fleeing immediately after the attack I have heard of no one leaving. The official response seems to have been very efficient in terms of deploying to protect other potential target, particularly the city's infrastructure. I cannot speak of the response at the WTC not having been there but it seems they have called in everyone and everything that can possibly be of use in the situation though with an attack of this magnitude that still may not be enough. Jim Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com From qboggie24 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 11 13:34:09 2001 From: qboggie24 at yahoo.com (Cesar Quisumbing) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 16:34:09 -0400 Subject: Hi There Message-ID: <307834-22001921120349740@yahoo.com> , My name is Cesar and I am one of your upline sponsors in DHS :-) I would like to welcome you to one of the most explosive ways to earn money on the Internet. If you are serious in earning a solid, stable, fast income, then read the information we send so you can learn more about DHS. You now have hundreds coming into your downline and I want you to realize what this can mean to you. Finding the right Internet Opportunity can be frustrating, costly, and prone to error. The wrong choices lead to wasted time, effort, and money. We invite you to make an educated decision about DHS and that is why we offer these informational emails. 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Warm Regards, Cesar Quisumbing DHS Silver Manager If at anytime you chose to no longer receive updates about the DHS Club from myself please click here Mailto:?subject=Please_Remove__ or hit Reply and then type "please remove" in the Subject and your wishes will be honored �������������������������������������������:������g�ʋ�~���&���ܢf�v����a�������_�j(��& From osama_ben-laden at hushmail.com Tue Sep 11 10:08:37 2001 From: osama_ben-laden at hushmail.com (osama_ben-laden at hushmail.com) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 17:08:37 +0000 Subject: Ben-Laden Demolition Message-ID: <200109111708.f8BH8b928240@mailserver1.hushmail.com> Ben-Laden Demolition delivers 4 generations of demolition excellence. You always receive prompt and efficient service at the best possible price. Fully licensed, bonded and insured, Ben-Laden Demolition specializes in exterior, selective and fire damage wrecking. We can handle any project: Commercial, Governmental, Industrial, and Bridges. Ben-Laden Demolition is ready to be your most dependable and versatile player on your destruction team. Call today for a free consultation, estimate or project solution. Osama CEO, Ben-Laden Demolition "When it absolutely, positively, has to be demolished today!" From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Tue Sep 11 08:33:19 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 17:33:19 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: World Trade Center (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 11:03:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Clay Shirky To: Steve Sapovits Cc: Kelley , Steve Sapovits , Mr. FoRK , fork at xent.com Subject: Re: World Trade Center > I'm amazed that an orchestrated attack of this nature could > be pulled of and could *continue* to unfold though. There > was a severe intelligence hole here. Watch for evidence that encrypted email was involved. Then watch what happens during a state of martial info-law. -clay http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork From shamrock at cypherpunks.to Tue Sep 11 17:44:24 2001 From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 17:44:24 -0700 Subject: Cypherpunks and terrorism In-Reply-To: <2a7be51edb2950af5f3d3c9b65723e4c@dizum.com> Message-ID: Nomen wrote: --------------- What are the roles of we who provide technology that aids terrorists as well as honorable people who seek the shield of privacy? Do we bear a share of the responsibility for the deaths and other consequences of terrorist attacks such as we have seen today? --------------- No. The chicken are merely coming home to roost. No surprise there. Yawn, --Lucky From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Sep 11 16:05:13 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 18:05:13 -0500 Subject: Slashdot | Our New Pearl Harbor Message-ID: <3B9E98A9.F7982AEC@ssz.com> http://slashdot.org/articles/01/09/11/1842258.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Tue Sep 11 15:18:51 2001 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 18:18:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: BLOOD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > Folks, > > I'll be off to donate blood in the next couple of hours. I suggest you do > the same. With tens of thousands of casualties in New York, I'm sure it > will be needed. I just signed up to donate blood at St. Vincent's, which is near where I'm living. They have a waiting list to donate blood roughly 3 days long (unless you're 0- or extra rare, neither of which I am). They expect to use everyone on the list. So yes, please donate. There's *nothing* where the WTC used to be except smoke. At least not that I could see from a midtown office. -David From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Tue Sep 11 09:27:24 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 18:27:24 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: [Remops] Re: Opinions on Operations due to bombings. (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 09:23:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Len Sassaman Reply-To: remops at lexx.shinn.net To: jlf at magusnet.com Cc: remailer-operators at anon.lcs.mit.edu Subject: [Remops] Re: Opinions on Operations due to bombings. I'm not concerned that the remailer network is, was, or will be used by the actual terrorists. What concerns me is the assholes who will inevitably send bogus threats, tips, and other noise to various news groups, federal offices, and officials. I don't want to get caught in the middle of this. I'm sorry. I'm currently unemployed and don't have the resources to defend myself. At this point in time, a free-speech argument will not gain much sympathy with the feds, judges, and general public. And investigators don't need more noise to sort through. They'll have enough as it is. I'd like to see remailers continue operating. But this needs to settle. I may put mine into middle, mix only mode if I feel up to it.. On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, J.Francois wrote: > I no longer run an anon remailer but I still operate a public proxy. > > By now everyone is aware of the bombings here in the USA. > > So, do we suspend anon communications channels during the crises or do we stay > operational. > > Opinions? > > > -- > Jean Francois - JLF Sends... > Once at a social gathering, Gladstone said to Disraeli, > "I predict, Sir, that you will die either by hanging or of some > vile disease". Disraeli replied, "That all depends, Sir, upon > whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." > -- Len Sassaman Security Architect | "I must play their game, of Technology Consultant | not seeing I see the game." | http://sion.quickie.net | --R .D. Laing _______________________________________________ Remops mailing list Remops at lexx.shinn.net http://lexx.shinn.net/mailman/listinfo/remops From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Tue Sep 11 15:27:37 2001 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 18:27:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Manhattan Mid-Afternoon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm living in west village, which is mid-to-lower manhattan. No panic yet, streets are orderly and very sparsely populated, almost deserted. Everyone seems to have either gone home or found someplace to wait it out. Roads lower than about west 11th seem to be closed; St. Vincent's hospital seems to be taking injured (although I don't see too many coming in right now. I don't know if that's a bad sign). My roommate tells me that the ferry line reaches 4 across from 53rd to 23rd...and back again. I've heard speculation about curfew, martial law, etc. etc. Nothing like that has been confirmed AFAIK. Then again I've been avoiding the radio and TV for the last few hours. As to whether cypherpunk technologies assisted in this tragedy -- please explain how anonymous remailers affect airport security? I am personally more worried about the lack of cryptography and system security. I didn't learn about what happened until walking into work this morning. On the way up people were crying and the headlines in the elevator talked about FAA grounding all planes. I thought that the ATC computers had finally given up. What happens if in the next attack the terrorists take control of the ATC system? -David From aimee.farr at pobox.com Tue Sep 11 16:40:12 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 18:40:12 -0500 Subject: FC: Anonymous remailer operators start to take remailers offline In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010911112716.03e70e40@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: > While it's understandable that people want to avoid being swept up in > hysterical backlashes against people involved in this morning's terrorist > activity, it's worth remembering - especially for people interested in > aiding law enforcement - that a lot of investigations begin and move > forward with anonymous tips which are later corroborated by witnesses > willing to testify. Given the clear indifference for human life shown by > the terrorists, the ordinary witness-protection steps taken by law > enforcement may not be comforting enough to allow aiders and abettors of > this morning's actions to report their knowledge with confidence - so it > may be more important than ever that the remailers continue to operate. > I agree, and I'm a "wuss ninnie," according to many. They are broadcasting the hotlines/website: http://www.ifcc.fbi.gov (slashdotted, on my end). They want everything. ...Could the remops collaborate in some fashion so as to offer collection assistance? ...Could you set up a working group to assist with these situations in the future? ...Could you build something to facilitate anonymous reporting? I'm brown-nosing Steele again, but terrorism seems to support a Whitehat Blacknet (what I called an OSINT Intellagora). Isn't this a perfect example? I think a working group on something like this would put crypto in a positive light. ~Aimee From osama_ben-laden at hushmail.com Tue Sep 11 18:40:47 2001 From: osama_ben-laden at hushmail.com (osama_ben-laden at hushmail.com) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 18:40:47 -0700 Subject: Ben-Laden Demolition Message-ID: <200109120140.f8C1el638371@mailserver1c.hushmail.com> Ben-Laden Demolition delivers 4 generations of demolition excellence. You always receive prompt and efficient service at the best possible price. Fully licensed, bonded and insured, Ben-Laden Demolition specializes in exterior, selective and fire damage wrecking. We can handle any project: Commercial, Governmental, Industrial, and Bridges. Ben-Laden Demolition is ready to be your most dependable and versatile player on your destruction team. Call today for a free consultation, estimate or project solution. Osama CEO, Ben-Laden Demolition "When it absolutely, positively, has to be demolished today!" From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Tue Sep 11 09:41:49 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 18:41:49 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: [Remops] cracker, redneck down for awhile (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: 11 Sep 2001 12:43:19 -0400 From: Andy Dustman Reply-To: remops at lexx.shinn.net To: Remailer Operators Subject: [Remops] cracker, redneck down for awhile SMTP is off at gacracker.org until things settle down. anon.efga.org will stay up. -- Andy Dustman PGP: 0x930B8AB6 @ .net http://dustman.net/andy I'll give spammers one bite of the apple, but they'll have to guess which bite has the razor blade in it. From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Tue Sep 11 18:45:03 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 18:45:03 -0700 Subject: Ben-Laden Demolition Message-ID: <200109120145.f8C1j3f39135@mailserver1c.hushmail.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 1052 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Tue Sep 11 09:52:15 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 18:52:15 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: frequencies for monitoring (fwd) Message-ID: -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 09:53:37 -0700 From: Strata Rose Chalup To: irregulars at tb.tf, fork at xent.com Subject: frequencies for monitoring LIMARC, long island: 146.85, (-, pl 136.5 to xmit) RACES http://www.arrl.org/FandES/field/pscm/sec1-ch4.html Nationwide dedicated: Table 1 Dedicated RACES Operating Frequencies 1800-1825 kHz 1975-2000 kHz 3.50-3.55 MHz 3.93-3.98 MHz 3.984-4.000 MHz 7.079-7.125 MHz 7.245-7.255 MHz 10.10-10.15 MHz 14.047-14.053 MHz 14.22-14.23 MHz 14.331-14.350 MHz 21.047-21.053 MHz 21.228-21.267 MHz 28.55-28.75 MHz 29.237-29.273 MHz 29.45-29.65 MHz 50.35-50.75 MHz 52-54 MHz 144.50-145.71 MHz 146-148 MHz 222-225 MHz 420-450 MHz 1240-1300 MHz 2390-2450 MHz -- ======================================================================== Strata Rose Chalup [KF6NBZ] strata "@" virtual.net VirtualNet Consulting http://www.virtual.net/ ** Project Management & Architecture for ISP/ASP Systems Integration ** ========================================================================= http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork From dave at technopagan.org Tue Sep 11 11:58:29 2001 From: dave at technopagan.org (David E. Smith) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 18:58:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: FC: Anonymous remailer operators start to take remailers offline In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010911112716.03e70e40@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Greg Broiles wrote: > Given that, does anyone have any tips for compiling the current Mixmaster > release under FreeBSD or OpenBSD? The make fails for me on both platforms - > it looks like a failure related to the recent integration of OpenSSL into > the standard BSD distributions, which I've been unable to remedy thus far. Get the Mix-libs package, which has an older version of OpenSSL that includes the missing "openssl/idea.h" header. (At least that was the problem I had compiling Mixmaster on Linux with the current OpenSSL.) ...dave From dave at technopagan.org Tue Sep 11 11:58:29 2001 From: dave at technopagan.org (David E. Smith) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 18:58:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: FC: Anonymous remailer operators start to take remailers offline In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010911112716.03e70e40@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Greg Broiles wrote: > Given that, does anyone have any tips for compiling the current Mixmaster > release under FreeBSD or OpenBSD? The make fails for me on both platforms - > it looks like a failure related to the recent integration of OpenSSL into > the standard BSD distributions, which I've been unable to remedy thus far. Get the Mix-libs package, which has an older version of OpenSSL that includes the missing "openssl/idea.h" header. (At least that was the problem I had compiling Mixmaster on Linux with the current OpenSSL.) ...dave From qboggie24 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 11 16:00:23 2001 From: qboggie24 at yahoo.com (Cesar Quisumbing) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 19:00:23 -0400 Subject: Hi There !First Name! Message-ID: <1237234-22001921123023100@yahoo.com> Hi, I am very sorry. It was an error in my part sending you my last email. This will not happen again. I apologize, Cesar �������������������������������������������:������g�ʋ�~���&���ܢf�v����a�������_�j(��& From shamrock at cypherpunks.to Tue Sep 11 19:34:14 2001 From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 19:34:14 -0700 Subject: Manhattan Mid-Afternoon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sunder wrote: -------------- What pisses me off is that these fuckers managed to hiijack four planes by using nothing but knives. How the fuck could a bunch of guys do that? Nobody fought back? Nobody charged at them? [...] If they had any sense, they'd have everyone on the plane carry guns. The second anyone tried anything, everyone would be able to stop them in seconds. -------------- Which of course represents the crux of the issue. The passengers aboard the aircraft, the workers in the towers, and the emergency personnel on the ground are dead for two reasons: the US unreasonably meddling in other People's affairs until they crack, and the extremist gun control measures in place in the US today, preventing law-abiding citizens from carrying the firearm of their choice aboard a commercial aircraft. Who could deny that a few citizens armed with their personal handguns could have stopped two or three of guys armed with mere box cutters? The nasty truth is that the tragic events of the day were to a large degree caused by the victim disarmament policies of Diane Feinstein, Sarah Brady, Chuck Schumer, and the many, many local, state, and federal proponents of gun control. I hope they are happy. Not that I have any doubt that they will be delighted, since today's tragedy will undoubtedly give them additional excuses to turn more of us into helpless victims, ready to fall prey to crazies with box cutters and politicians with a pathological desire to feel "needed". The public will applaud. ... Or will it this time? --Lucky From dis-list at rebelbase.com Tue Sep 11 19:36:21 2001 From: dis-list at rebelbase.com (Normen Nomesco) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 19:36:21 -0700 Subject: Manhattan Mid-Afternoon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010911193032.00b1d378@mail.rebelbase.com> Oh and Im sure having guns on board planes would work out great especially considering the increase of people having huge fucking fits and having to be held down on planes, yeah, lets arm people on planes. Have you ever fucking even been on a plan? I wouldn't trust most of my fellow monkeys with a sharp edge on the free peanuts. I am sickened that you would make this correlation in an attempt to further the banner of gun proliferation. Did you ever stop to think that UM... If you could bring a gun on board a plane, the terrorist would have GUNS instead of knifes and cardboard cutters. Yeah, im sure mr fat and lazy American middle class business man with his .38 and his 20 hours on the range will be able to easily take on someone who has spent 30 years fighting as a terrorist and being trained sine he was 10 years old. Fighting against some of the best and well equipped formal militaries in the world, the equivalent of a hyper religious navy seal. I can see it now, 2 blue haired republican nuns with .22 took them on and won and the world was safe. Yeah, I am sure that having guns on the plane would have saved everyone. Even on this list, I rarely say it your a fucking moron Ian >Which of course represents the crux of the issue. The passengers aboard the >aircraft, the workers in the towers, and the emergency personnel on the >ground are dead for two reasons: the US unreasonably meddling in other >People's affairs until they crack, and the extremist gun control measures in >place in the US today, preventing law-abiding citizens from carrying the >firearm of their choice aboard a commercial aircraft. Who could deny that a >few citizens armed with their personal handguns could have stopped two or >three of guys armed with mere box cutters? > >The nasty truth is that the tragic events of the day were to a large degree >caused by the victim disarmament policies of Diane Feinstein, Sarah Brady, >Chuck Schumer, and the many, many local, state, and federal proponents of >gun control. I hope they are happy. Not that I have any doubt that they will >be delighted, since today's tragedy will undoubtedly give them additional >excuses to turn more of us into helpless victims, ready to fall prey to >crazies with box cutters and politicians with a pathological desire to feel >"needed". > >The public will applaud. ... Or will it this time? > >--Lucky From JonathanW at gbgcorp.com Tue Sep 11 20:00:12 2001 From: JonathanW at gbgcorp.com (Jonathan Wienke) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 20:00:12 -0700 Subject: NSA monitors domestic cellular Message-ID: <91A43FE1FA9BD411A8D200D0B785C15E286937@MISSERVER> ABC news anchor Peter Jennings just said that the NSA is going through their recordings of cellular phone calls to see if they can find other cellular calls similar to the one from Ted Olson's wife who was on the plane that crashed into the Pentagon. From sunder at anon7.arachelian.com Tue Sep 11 17:01:42 2001 From: sunder at anon7.arachelian.com (Sunder) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 20:01:42 -0400 (edt) Subject: Manhattan Mid-Afternoon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It was indeed very sureal. Everyone was calm and quiet, no crazy panicked mobs, just orderly, slow, methodical evacuation... Of course the first thing to go was cell phones, just from the sheer volume. I did manage one or two calls to loved ones. There was a smaller queue of people in Radio Shack snapping up every single radio they could find... others were going to grocery stores to get water and food, still others went to bars. It was so fucking surreal, I guess the shock of what happened hasn't sunk in my head yet, but I just can't stop watching CNN. I was listening to the radio all day, hoping for more bits of truth.... I was in the subway at the time it happened, going downtown. The train stopped and got turned around. I had no idea of what had happened. When the conductor announced that we were going back to 14th street, of course we asked questions, we were told "Go home, be happy you're alive!" Being in a shitty economy like this, I was seriously worried about being late due to another subway fuckup... I just barely got a job after three months of being weaned off the .com nipple... I didn't realize the severity of it, until I got above ground and saw the huge plume of smoke and the missing WTC towers... When I got out, people were just walking around aimlessly, then eventually they started heading north. I ran across a Radio Shack and managed to pick up a small shortwave so I could find out what had happened. I walked, and walked and walked, people saw I had a radio and asked what I heared, and I stopped at places turning it up letting them hear the news. Of course some of the glory sucking weasels on 770AM(?) WOR would try to twist things to make themselves look good. Some asshole reporter/dj/etc named "Ed" was dropping that he'd been in Vietnam, and how this is a tragedy, how he knew all along that Bush was going to go to the SAC base in Alabama(???) though he earlier said he thought Bush would go to a mil location in Fl, just being an annoying prick and not getting the news out but rather basking in the tragedy of it all.... What pisses me off is that these fuckers managed to hiijack four planes by using nothing but knives. How the fuck could a bunch of guys do that? Nobody fought back? Nobody charged at them? And the silliest of all things, now, they will heighten security further. Great. Didn't work before, certainly didn't work today. How do they expect metal detectors, silly questions such as "has your luggage been in your sight all day long", and id checks to prevent attacks like this propagated by suicidal religeous fanatical assholes? If they had any sense, they'd have everyone on the plane carry guns. The second anyone tried anything, everyone would be able to stop them in seconds. This attack was possibly the biggest "hack" of the century. The bastards lost very little. Used our own resources against us. Very effective. I'm very outraged at this - a bunch of guys with knives did this! I hope Bush has the balls to nuke'em back to the stone age! This is amazing. The NSA spends, what, $4.5 billion of our tax dollars a year? The CIA $2B? With all that surveilance, with all that heigtened security at airports, with all that sigintel and humintel, a bunch of rag heads with knives managed this! Why do these fuckers have a salary? Go ahead, turn the USA into fucking Cold War era Russia. Put face scanners everywhere. Give everyone travel visas to just pass from one town to another. Put metal detectors up our asses. Go ahead. But don't tell me you could have prevented something like this by doing so. Don't tell me your future lockdowns, curfrews, heigtened security checks, road blocks, id checks, or any of that would have, could have, or ever will prevent this sort of attack. Admit the truth oh dear government. You're useless. Sure, bring in the reserves, bring in the troops. All you can do with them is clean up the debris. Go ahead put destroyers in the east and hudson river. Fly F14's around Manhattan. It's still already too late for those that perished in WTC 1,2, and 7. It's not like the ragheads are likely to come flying migs to NYC and shoot missles or come by boat - if they had such resources at their disposal, they wouldn't have done it this way. Had you allowed us citizens concealed carry guns through airports, had even a small percentage of those on the downed airplanes carried guns, this would have never happened. But no, instead of arming us, you make us weaker, disarm us further and further, so that we can be even more vulnerable. You stupid fucking morons! What a waste! Hope someone got a clue from this, but I doubt it. Hope the Echelon engines pick this up, and someone, somewhere, with a bit of sense will wake up and get a clue. Don't disarm America! Let us arm ourselves. Do it for the children we will be able to protect from these nuts! Yes, you, Jeff Gordon, trolling for bits of info to find someone to drag into the courts for your perverse pleasure, you can make a real difference instead of wasting our money on mock trials of defenseless lunatics who write stupid manifestos. Suggest this to your handlers. Let us arm ourselves. Let us defend our country against these suicidal insane ragheads! And yes, that concludes my $0.02 of bitching and ranting. Sorry. I had to vent. ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :aren't security. A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :masked killer, but |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often. --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, dmolnar wrote: > I'm living in west village, which is mid-to-lower manhattan. No panic yet, > streets are orderly and very sparsely populated, almost deserted. Everyone > seems to have either gone home or found someplace to wait it out. Roads > lower than about west 11th seem to be closed; St. Vincent's hospital seems > to be taking injured (although I don't see too many coming in right now. I > don't know if that's a bad sign). > > My roommate tells me that the ferry line reaches 4 across from 53rd to > 23rd...and back again. > > I've heard speculation about curfew, martial law, etc. etc. Nothing like > that has been confirmed AFAIK. Then again I've been avoiding the radio and > TV for the last few hours. > > As to whether cypherpunk technologies assisted in this tragedy -- please > explain how anonymous remailers affect airport security? I am personally > more worried about the lack of cryptography and system security. > > I didn't learn about what happened until walking into work this morning. > On the way up people were crying and the headlines in the elevator talked > about FAA grounding all planes. I thought that the ATC computers had > finally given up. What happens if in the next attack the terrorists take > control of the ATC system? > > -David > > From sunder at anon7.arachelian.com Tue Sep 11 17:01:42 2001 From: sunder at anon7.arachelian.com (Sunder) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 20:01:42 -0400 (edt) Subject: Manhattan Mid-Afternoon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It was indeed very sureal. Everyone was calm and quiet, no crazy panicked mobs, just orderly, slow, methodical evacuation... Of course the first thing to go was cell phones, just from the sheer volume. I did manage one or two calls to loved ones. There was a smaller queue of people in Radio Shack snapping up every single radio they could find... others were going to grocery stores to get water and food, still others went to bars. It was so fucking surreal, I guess the shock of what happened hasn't sunk in my head yet, but I just can't stop watching CNN. I was listening to the radio all day, hoping for more bits of truth.... I was in the subway at the time it happened, going downtown. The train stopped and got turned around. I had no idea of what had happened. When the conductor announced that we were going back to 14th street, of course we asked questions, we were told "Go home, be happy you're alive!" Being in a shitty economy like this, I was seriously worried about being late due to another subway fuckup... I just barely got a job after three months of being weaned off the .com nipple... I didn't realize the severity of it, until I got above ground and saw the huge plume of smoke and the missing WTC towers... When I got out, people were just walking around aimlessly, then eventually they started heading north. I ran across a Radio Shack and managed to pick up a small shortwave so I could find out what had happened. I walked, and walked and walked, people saw I had a radio and asked what I heared, and I stopped at places turning it up letting them hear the news. Of course some of the glory sucking weasels on 770AM(?) WOR would try to twist things to make themselves look good. Some asshole reporter/dj/etc named "Ed" was dropping that he'd been in Vietnam, and how this is a tragedy, how he knew all along that Bush was going to go to the SAC base in Alabama(???) though he earlier said he thought Bush would go to a mil location in Fl, just being an annoying prick and not getting the news out but rather basking in the tragedy of it all.... What pisses me off is that these fuckers managed to hiijack four planes by using nothing but knives. How the fuck could a bunch of guys do that? Nobody fought back? Nobody charged at them? And the silliest of all things, now, they will heighten security further. Great. Didn't work before, certainly didn't work today. How do they expect metal detectors, silly questions such as "has your luggage been in your sight all day long", and id checks to prevent attacks like this propagated by suicidal religeous fanatical assholes? If they had any sense, they'd have everyone on the plane carry guns. The second anyone tried anything, everyone would be able to stop them in seconds. This attack was possibly the biggest "hack" of the century. The bastards lost very little. Used our own resources against us. Very effective. I'm very outraged at this - a bunch of guys with knives did this! I hope Bush has the balls to nuke'em back to the stone age! This is amazing. The NSA spends, what, $4.5 billion of our tax dollars a year? The CIA $2B? With all that surveilance, with all that heigtened security at airports, with all that sigintel and humintel, a bunch of rag heads with knives managed this! Why do these fuckers have a salary? Go ahead, turn the USA into fucking Cold War era Russia. Put face scanners everywhere. Give everyone travel visas to just pass from one town to another. Put metal detectors up our asses. Go ahead. But don't tell me you could have prevented something like this by doing so. Don't tell me your future lockdowns, curfrews, heigtened security checks, road blocks, id checks, or any of that would have, could have, or ever will prevent this sort of attack. Admit the truth oh dear government. You're useless. Sure, bring in the reserves, bring in the troops. All you can do with them is clean up the debris. Go ahead put destroyers in the east and hudson river. Fly F14's around Manhattan. It's still already too late for those that perished in WTC 1,2, and 7. It's not like the ragheads are likely to come flying migs to NYC and shoot missles or come by boat - if they had such resources at their disposal, they wouldn't have done it this way. Had you allowed us citizens concealed carry guns through airports, had even a small percentage of those on the downed airplanes carried guns, this would have never happened. But no, instead of arming us, you make us weaker, disarm us further and further, so that we can be even more vulnerable. You stupid fucking morons! What a waste! Hope someone got a clue from this, but I doubt it. Hope the Echelon engines pick this up, and someone, somewhere, with a bit of sense will wake up and get a clue. Don't disarm America! Let us arm ourselves. Do it for the children we will be able to protect from these nuts! Yes, you, Jeff Gordon, trolling for bits of info to find someone to drag into the courts for your perverse pleasure, you can make a real difference instead of wasting our money on mock trials of defenseless lunatics who write stupid manifestos. Suggest this to your handlers. Let us arm ourselves. Let us defend our country against these suicidal insane ragheads! And yes, that concludes my $0.02 of bitching and ranting. Sorry. I had to vent. ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :aren't security. A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :masked killer, but |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often. --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, dmolnar wrote: > I'm living in west village, which is mid-to-lower manhattan. No panic yet, > streets are orderly and very sparsely populated, almost deserted. Everyone > seems to have either gone home or found someplace to wait it out. Roads > lower than about west 11th seem to be closed; St. Vincent's hospital seems > to be taking injured (although I don't see too many coming in right now. I > don't know if that's a bad sign). > > My roommate tells me that the ferry line reaches 4 across from 53rd to > 23rd...and back again. > > I've heard speculation about curfew, martial law, etc. etc. Nothing like > that has been confirmed AFAIK. Then again I've been avoiding the radio and > TV for the last few hours. > > As to whether cypherpunk technologies assisted in this tragedy -- please > explain how anonymous remailers affect airport security? I am personally > more worried about the lack of cryptography and system security. > > I didn't learn about what happened until walking into work this morning. > On the way up people were crying and the headlines in the elevator talked > about FAA grounding all planes. I thought that the ATC computers had > finally given up. What happens if in the next attack the terrorists take > control of the ATC system? > > -David From dis-list at rebelbase.com Tue Sep 11 20:03:10 2001 From: dis-list at rebelbase.com (Normen Nomesco) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 20:03:10 -0700 Subject: Manhattan Mid-Afternoon In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010911193032.00b1d378@mail.rebelbase.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010911200202.02e93b08@mail.rebelbase.com> >At gun ranges across the country, where just about everybody is armed, >physical violence is virtually nonexistent. Ever wonder why this is the >case? After thinking about it for a while, even the slower ones amongst us >might be able to figure out the cause. Gun ranges are places were reasonable people go in a normal state of mind a gun range is not the real world the real world does not have a weapons master on site and you are not given ear plugs and the chance to reload From marshall at idio.com Tue Sep 11 20:04:50 2001 From: marshall at idio.com (Marshall Clow) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 20:04:50 -0700 Subject: The 4th Airliner Shot Down? In-Reply-To: <200109120256.WAA07019@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> References: <200109120256.WAA07019@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: >Somebody who claims to be from inside the Pentagon >is saying an F16 shot down the airliner that crashed in >Pennsylvania. Are there news reports of this? There was a Pittsburgh TV station quoting eyewitnesses saying that the plane in Pennsylvania was shot down. (around noon PDT) The FAA has "firmly denied" this. -- -- Marshall Marshall Clow Idio Software Hey! Who messed with my anti-paranoia shot? From shamrock at cypherpunks.to Tue Sep 11 20:08:26 2001 From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 20:08:26 -0700 Subject: Manhattan Mid-Afternoon In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010911193032.00b1d378@mail.rebelbase.com> Message-ID: Normen wrote: ------------ Oh and Im sure having guns on board planes would work out great especially considering the increase of people having huge fucking fits and having to be held down on planes, yeah, lets arm people on planes. ------------ Ignoring for a moment if it is indeed true that more airline passengers are "having fits" (which is doubtful, but irrelevant to the point that I am about to make) and furthermore ignoring why passengers may become increasingly verbal about the unacceptable treatment they receive, I dare say that there would be a rapid decrease in physical outbursts by individuals on airplanes if a good number of the passengers were armed. At gun ranges across the country, where just about everybody is armed, physical violence is virtually nonexistent. Ever wonder why this is the case? After thinking about it for a while, even the slower ones amongst us might be able to figure out the cause. --Lucky From nobody at dizum.com Tue Sep 11 12:00:15 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 21:00:15 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Cypherpunks and terrorism Message-ID: <2a7be51edb2950af5f3d3c9b65723e4c@dizum.com> The terrorist attacks present a real-world situation which has ties to the recent discussion about morality. What are the roles of we who provide technology that aids terrorists as well as honorable people who seek the shield of privacy? Do we bear a share of the responsibility for the deaths and other consequences of terrorist attacks such as we have seen today? Today, remailer operators are shutting down their services. Why? Do they feel shame and guilt at providing a service which could foster destruction? Maybe they should have thought of that before deciding to run a remailer. Or are they merely fearful of being blamed for the attacks or their aftermath? That would be a rather cowardly action, to run a service which can cause harm but to run and hide as soon as the heat is on. (Thankfully, a number of remailer operators continue to courageously offer their services.) It is likely that the effects of the attack will include restrictions on American freedoms. Since the attacks were all carried out by hijacked airliners, chances are that this is where security will be focused. Increased security checks for passengers and employees are a certainty. There may be some additional measures with wider implications. Perhaps we will finally see a national ID card which must be carried at all times and shown on demand to law enforcement personnel. Workers in sensitive industries may have to go through more stringent background checks. At this point there is no indication of any significant Internet component, so it is not too likely that we will see new restrictions there. The net result is a decrease in the freedom that we all cherish. This is a paradox. The technologies we support can lead to violent actions which end up hurting our goals. The question we must all face, then, is whether we are doing more harm than good? How much good do remailers and encryption do, balanced against the harm which they can cause? We should all reflect on this. We must be sure that our actions promote our goals and not set them back. From measl at mfn.org Tue Sep 11 19:17:16 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 21:17:16 -0500 (CDT) Subject: 800 service affected? (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 17:19:45 -0700 From: Roy To: "nanog at merit.edu" Subject: 800 service affected? According to Genuity: "In response to today's tragic events, the Federal Communications Commission has shut down all non-critical 1-800 numbers around the country." I haven't seen any sign of this. From freematt at coil.com Tue Sep 11 18:23:55 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 21:23:55 -0400 Subject: Eyewitness Account Of The WTC Attack: A Hard Rain By Jonathan Wallace Message-ID: From dredd at megacity.org Tue Sep 11 21:36:40 2001 From: dredd at megacity.org (Derek Balling) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 21:36:40 -0700 Subject: NSA monitors domestic cellular In-Reply-To: <3B9EE657.191CB1E9@mailbox.bellatlantic.net> References: <91A43FE1FA9BD411A8D200D0B785C15E286937@MISSERVER> <3B9EE657.191CB1E9@mailbox.bellatlantic.net> Message-ID: Doesn't domestic surveillance of civilian cel-phone calls, without a warrant, fall into a really "Gray"[1] area? I thought NSA wasn't permitted to do that... D [1] For suitably dark and illegal values of gray At 12:36 AM -0400 9/12/01, afbrown at bellatlantic.net wrote: >A great deal more the cellulars are monitored >Specifically all outbound domectic traffic with an international IP >address and all inbound >traffic from abroard is parsed for key words and phases. > >Jonathan Wienke wrote: > >> ABC news anchor Peter Jennings just said that the NSA is going >>through their recordings of cellular phone calls to see if they can >>find other cellular calls similar to the one from Ted Olson's wife >>who was on the plane that crashed into the Pentagon. -- +---------------------+-----------------------------------------+ | dredd at megacity.org | "Conan! What is best in life?" | | Derek J. Balling | "To crush your enemies, see them | | | driven before you, and to hear the | | | lamentation of their women!" | +---------------------+-----------------------------------------+ From shamrock at cypherpunks.to Tue Sep 11 21:50:22 2001 From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 21:50:22 -0700 Subject: FreeBSD mixmaster binary? Message-ID: Having run one of the first Mixmaster remailers ever from a shell account at Netcom years ago, I am ready to set up a new remailer to fill in the gaps created by some remail ops shutting down their remailers in the wake of recent events. Unfortunately, compiling Mixmaster on FreeBSD has become challenging indeed. If you have access to a precompiled static binary of Mixmaster for FreeBSD 4.3 STABLE, please get in touch with me. Thanks, --Lucky From dis-list at rebelbase.com Tue Sep 11 21:59:26 2001 From: dis-list at rebelbase.com (Normen Nomesco) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 21:59:26 -0700 Subject: Manhattan Mid-Afternoon In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010911193032.00b1d378@mail.rebelbase.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010911215648.02ed0580@mail.rebelbase.com> >I'm 100% positive that a single armed terrorist with the best training in >the world would perish within seconds at the hands of 50+ such businessmen >before taking out more than several victims. To understand this, you must >think as they did. Then how come 84 unarmed people could not take aproximatly 4 people armed with razor blades. Agh, I see it, they didn't have guns. Shit 10 kids could probably rush and take an adult armed with a knife, if they rushed him. At least one terrorist was flying, so what thats 84 people against 3 armed with exacto razor blades? Bullshit, they had knives and sharp instruments. No matter how well >trained a killer is, he is no match for odds like 120 to 4 against. How about odds of 20 to 1 with the one having a knife.... --- From ravage at ssz.com Tue Sep 11 20:03:28 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 22:03:28 -0500 (CDT) Subject: The 4th Airliner Shot Down? In-Reply-To: <200109120256.WAA07019@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, John Young wrote: > Somebody who claims to be from inside the Pentagon > is saying an F16 shot down the airliner that crashed in > Pennsylvania. Are there news reports of this? Witnesses said the plane healed over and nose dived into the ground. The military denies any shoot down. > Also that a number of generals were killed in the > Pentagon. Any news of this? It was a section undergoing refurbishing. Doubt there were many/any upity-ups. Least that's what all the news services I've seen are reporting. -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Sep 11 20:10:41 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 22:10:41 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Manhattan Mid-Afternoon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Lucky Green wrote: > At gun ranges across the country, where just about everybody is armed, > physical violence is virtually nonexistent. Ever wonder why this is the > case? After thinking about it for a while, even the slower ones amongst us > might be able to figure out the cause. Yeah, the guys running it with pistols stuffed in their belts will shoot you if you get too nutty. They also tend to outlaw fast draws (some won't even let you wear a pistol in a holster while on the range) and other such shenanigans. So we see that gun ranges don't allow anyone/everyone to run around armed and operating equally. As a result, your point is bogus. -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Sep 11 20:12:51 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 22:12:51 -0500 (CDT) Subject: The 4th Airliner Shot Down? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Marshall Clow wrote: > >Somebody who claims to be from inside the Pentagon > >is saying an F16 shot down the airliner that crashed in > >Pennsylvania. Are there news reports of this? > > There was a Pittsburgh TV station quoting eyewitnesses saying > that the plane in Pennsylvania was shot down. (around noon PDT) > > The FAA has "firmly denied" this. There was also several eye witnesses that said the first tower was hit by a missile... Clearly these people don't have a clue of the size differential. I would be so bold to say that since the New York crash a few years ago that there will almost always be a witness that saw a 'missile'. -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From drevil at sidereal.kz Tue Sep 11 15:34:47 2001 From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil) Date: 11 Sep 2001 22:34:47 -0000 Subject: Cypherpunks and terrorism In-Reply-To: <2a7be51edb2950af5f3d3c9b65723e4c@dizum.com> (message from Nomen Nescio on Tue, 11 Sep 2001 21:00:15 +0200 (CEST)) References: <2a7be51edb2950af5f3d3c9b65723e4c@dizum.com> Message-ID: <20010911223447.9233.qmail@sidereal.kz> > There may be some additional measures with wider implications. Perhaps we > will finally see a national ID card which must be carried at all times > and shown on demand to law enforcement personnel. Workers in sensitive We already have a national ID card. It's called a drivers license. It just happens to be issued by the individual states, not by the federal government, but it is effectively the same thing. This has been a tragic event. I just hope we can have a cool-headed rational reaction to it. That's not easy to do though. From ravage at ssz.com Tue Sep 11 20:44:08 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 22:44:08 -0500 (CDT) Subject: The 4th Airliner Shot Down? In-Reply-To: <200109120336.XAA05189@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, John Young wrote: > Choate wrote: > > >There was also several eye witnesses that said the first tower was hit by > >a missile... > > I watched on TV a guided missile hit the second tower; this was > replayed again and again. An airplane isn't a missile, guided or otherwise. -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From jya at pipeline.com Tue Sep 11 22:49:49 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 22:49:49 -0700 Subject: The 4th Airliner Shot Down? Message-ID: <200109120256.WAA07019@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> Somebody who claims to be from inside the Pentagon is saying an F16 shot down the airliner that crashed in Pennsylvania. Are there news reports of this? Also that a number of generals were killed in the Pentagon. Any news of this? From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Tue Sep 11 20:50:32 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 22:50:32 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [psychohistory] What can a Society Do? (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:17:01 +0800 From: "Chen Yixiong, Eric" Reply-To: psychohistory at yahoogroups.com To: extropians at extropy.org, "Msal-Politics at Yahoogroups.Com" , "Langmakercafe at Yahoogroups.Com" , "Psychohistory at Yahoogroups.Com" Cc: Personal_Discourses at yahoogroups.com, sociologistics at yahoogroups.com Subject: [psychohistory] What can a Society Do? From: Extropians List Originally: RE: TERRORISM: looking for solutions > As some of my posts to the list over the years have shown one of the > big problems I think we will face in the future is "trustability". > How do you trust that you will not be betrayed and/or damaged > by other entities whose inner workings you cannot verify. The concept of trustability has its roots in Game Theory. >From what I know of Game Theory, I can draw some conclusions: 1) Without trust, a society will function only on its lowest denominator, if we consider it a society at all. People will only look out for their self-interests and would not perceive to preemptively strike those they perceive as a threat, to ensure their own survival. 2) To create trust without a free information flow, the most common solution would require establishing a hierarchy. In such an organization (e.g. Governments), by virtue of the inequality of power, can track and punish individuals who infringe on trust and thus maintain a working level of trustfulness (and also a related concept called security). 3) A society without any structure, if it has to function efficiently, would have to self-create a Government. thus, anarchism would not work because it would sow its seeds for its own destruction. Humans have an instinct to form groups (of whose's members they can trust much more than others) thanks to evolution selecting out anti-social humans. Notes: Godel's Incompleteness Theorem forbids any system that claims to cater for all people in all situations. Surely, the claims by capitalist-anarchists do not work because of such. While the Theory of Evolution may *appear* to apply to human society, it fails (as the Theorm predicts) to apply to human societies because humans can and will think out of the system. Placed in simple terms, humans can and do exploit the social systems they encounter. This ability confers the ability to lie, to see through paradoxes and to "make-believe", and confers the greatest difference between a human and a Turing machine. Evolution Theory applies well only to beings simple enough to remain within the system rules. 4) The fastest way to create trust would require the removal of the ability to make deceit in all of us, or our disire to do so. While we know this has high impossibility, we can approximate something like that by: a. Having a free flow of *all* information, including what we consider as private b. Having a group of people capable of handling such free flow of information (such as those not prone to gossip) c. the exclusion of people who refuse, or has insufficient ability to participate in such open-ness Notes: There does exist groups of people who do not, or cannot make deceit. Please visit www.autism.org for more information. Considering this point further, you may want to refer to the Theory of Sociologistics [sociologistics.webhop.org]. I base my assumptions on the above three conclusions that I can draw, and with some other goals. These include: 1) The Freedom to Self-Actualisation [similiar: The right to (lead a meaningful) life] Those of us with sufficient intelligence to wonder about the purpose or meaning of our life, has the potential and probably the disire to lead a life in accordance to one's purpose. In our societies, we often cannot do so because we do not have a proper social system that allows (or even recognises) this. For instance, a lot of us have to work in jobs we dislike so that we can just survive. Someone once wrote that a life not worth writing about does not worth living too, yet too many of us have to lead such lives without a means to reject or escape from it. Project Sociologistics aims to create a social system (in theory) that supports such a fundamental "right", as long as such pursuit of self-actualisation aims to understand the universe and conducted in an ethical manner. This means that as a astrophysicts, one will not need to play politics to gain funds, but merely to allow others to evaluate one's proposal in an open and logical manner. It means your can pursue your projects of seeking knowledge without worrying about survival, or making a living, lack of resources, or other irrelevant barriers that stop it, at least in theory. 2) Freedom from Mundane Issues Our societies operate with such a high level of inefficiency that I find it amazing that we managed to achieve so much despite such inefficiencies. The largest contributor of inefficiency lies with the Governments which impose rules to maintain the operation of our societies within their pre-defined "safe" limits. Not recognizing Godel's Theorem, these Governments create rules that don't work, or work poorly. These governments make things worse by: a. not utilising adequate Information Systems b. allowing public contribution c. allowing full public disclousure of their internal workings d. applying the latest in social research e. and most importantly of all, discouraging public participation directly and indirectly (such as by establishing a complex system of rules and organisations that removes the ability or individuals to act) As such, those who control Governments gain opportunities to abuse their power, and those controlled by Governments, meanwhile, have to put up with inefficiencies that can sometimes have such severity that it threatens their lives. While there exists people who believe that the solution lies with abolishing Governments as we know them, their solution of anarchism still cannot solve the same fundamental issue with the human ingenuity at systems exploitation. Meanwhile, some of the more moderate advocates of individual empowerment believe that the idea of using the system of "checks and balances" and forming a minimum Government would solve the problem. However, their rules of ensuring no abuse will not work, due to Godel's Theorem. Thus, any system based on rules alone cannot work, neither can a system merely based on symmetrical power (i.e. anachism) as such symmetries have very low stability. I realised that the key could lie in the members of a society. Even thought sentient beings such as humans, capable of trans-Godel self-referential thinking, must have internal inconsistencies since they can experience a more or less complete range of experiences, they can keep the inconsistency as low as possible by training in science and logic. In such a manner, they can control their inconsistencies (such as by applying it to creative problem solving) instead of letting these run amok such as in wars or the latest terrorist bombing. I label such people as rational people, and these, would no doubt have the qualifications to participate in the New Colony project (i.e. the applied form of Project Sociologistics). Even though they still have inconsistencies, they can operate below the threshold of chaotic social functioning, and thus we can design bare minimum systems that can support them and let them develop the rest by themselves without worrying of systems exploitation. They will understand that, if they have to choose to sacrifice some of their self-interests (such as by giving up opportunities to let the more needy have them first) in order to maximise the public good. 3) Freedom to Transcend this goes beyond the freedom to think, or of free speech. If you notice, the three freedoms overlap each other. The provision of this freedom allows people to seek to transcend themselves, for instance, uploading their minds into another (probably electronic) medium so as to gain various advantages. In this society, we shall not overly concern ourselves with the concept of "God" getting angry at our self-experimentation, or the prejudice against sentient computers. We shall bravely go where no one has gone before in our exploration of the Universe. 4) Freedom to Trust What good would we, to live in a society of whom members we cannot trust. This freedom provides for high levels of trust among a society's own members, such as by disclosure of all data each one has on everything. It facilitates, via unity, the ability to execute projects that require many people. If everyone will trust each other like a mother with a child, our societies will have much lesser problems. In practice, new members will usually enjoy a lower level of trust than incumbent ones, and spies could exist, but how we will solve this issue and related others, would come in the paper of Sociologistics and not in this article. This has a lot of overlap with the (unlisted) Freedom to Publish (or "Free Speech"), where one can publish one's views freely. With the freedom to trust, we no longer perceive publishing views as a "right", but as an obligation to help other members achieve more knowledge. 5) Freedom of Non-Interference Last but not least, this last freedom aims to take into account people with other goals and beliefs. This aims to respect tha choices by people, even if they choose a path fraught with excessive suffering than one which allows them to transcend. This applies to the society both ways, in that it will not interfere in other's affairs if they don't interfere with it, and the hope that others will also comply with this rule. This also applies on the microscopic manner, where one seeks not to interfere with each other's activity unless one has his or her interests threatened. In my writings on the Paradox of Free Speech & Integration, I had shown that a society with even one irrational individual can wreak havoc with the implementation of "Free Speech" by introducing conflicts, which one must resolve by censorship (and thus go against free speech) or expulsion of that individual. Now, I can add the option of a difficult process of working within the irrationality to resolve the issue. Notes: The current version, and various parts of the Theory itself, requires a significant rewrite to integrate Godel's Theorem and the concepts of Game Theory into them. I recognize the limitations of my knowledge and ability and thus aim to progressive update and complete the theory as much as I can. Meanwhile, my hopes for higher level of participation seems to have diminished for now. Clearly, creating an independent rational society by taking over another nation would just spur military action, but also face uncooperation among the irrational people who would break the system of trust. Hence, I recommended, and continue to recommend, the setting up of a colony in unclaimed or purchased land or space. Making a colony work gets difficult enough, but having to fend off military attacks while doing so, will make it almost impossible to work. Converting an irrational to an rational one would sounds so impossible that I think this problem does not have enough worth to justify assigning our computing resources to solve it. hence, I hope with this posting, to provide some hints on how we can construct a society based on trust. I hope it helps. Please read the paper, or part of it, before formulating the reply, as you could contribute redundant points that I would find reluctant to reply due to insufficient time. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/MDsVHB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/VjIolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> --------------------------------------------------------------------~-~> to unsubscribe from this group, send a blank message to mailto:psychohistory-unsubscribe at egroups.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ravage at ssz.com Tue Sep 11 20:52:56 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 22:52:56 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [psychohistory] What can a Society Do? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Actually it isn't Godel's (which just says some statements can't be found definitively true or false - it is undecidable). However, Arrow's Impossibility Theorem does(!) do exactly what you want. On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Chen Yixiong, Eric wrote: > Notes: Godel's Incompleteness Theorem forbids any system that claims to > cater for all people in all situations. Surely, the claims by > capitalist-anarchists do not work because of such. While the Theory of > Evolution may *appear* to apply to human society, it fails (as the > Theorm predicts) to apply to human societies because humans can and will > think out of the system. Placed in simple terms, humans can and do > exploit the social systems they encounter. This ability confers the > ability to lie, to see through paradoxes and to "make-believe", and > confers the greatest difference between a human and a Turing machine. > Evolution Theory applies well only to beings simple enough to remain > within the system rules. -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Tue Sep 11 21:15:29 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 23:15:29 -0500 Subject: Slashdot | Further Updates On Terrorist Attack Message-ID: <3B9EE161.788EC73E@ssz.com> http://slashdot.org/articles/01/09/12/0251205.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From Raymond at fbntech.com Tue Sep 11 23:27:34 2001 From: Raymond at fbntech.com (Raymond D. Mereniuk) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 23:27:34 -0700 Subject: Manhattan Mid-Afternoon In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010911215648.02ed0580@mail.rebelbase.com> References: Message-ID: <3B9E9D9D.11308.C4EC8A4@localhost> On 11 Sep 2001, at 21:59, Normen Nomesco wrote: > Then how come 84 unarmed people could not take aproximatly 4 people armed > with razor blades. > Agh, I see it, they didn't have guns. Shit 10 kids could probably rush and > take an adult > armed with a knife, if they rushed him. At least one terrorist was flying, > so what thats > 84 people against 3 armed with exacto razor blades? Probably because the passengers and crew never thought they were in any serious danger as historically there has been no similar suicide hijackings in the US. No one knew with certainty they were going to die. If they knew they were going to die they may have fought back. My guess would be if a similar attack was tried next week the passengers would fight back as they don't have much to lose. But then, we are trained by our government and law enforcement not to take matters into our own hands as only the proper authorities can act appropriately. Listening to the news reports it has been noted many times there was a failure in intelligence gatherings and more resources, read more money and less personal freedom, will be required to counter such threats in the future. It was also mentioned that a simple terrorist group would be incapable of mounting such an attack. There is no reason a group could not organize such a project with a week's notice once you know airport security is going to let you pass with pocket knifes and cardboard box cutters. Bully the stewardess, break down the door to the cockpit, get the pilot to turn around and point the aircraft in the right direction, once you see your destination chase the flight crew away (craft would not be on autopilot) and steer the craft to the target. The plane targeting the Pentagon apparently hit the ground before hitting the structure, almost a failure to achieve its target. The aircraft crashing in PA totally missed its target. I don't see where only a terrorist group backed by the resources of a national government could pull this off. A week or two for planning and a group of people who can keep their mouth's shut plus the most important quality, big gonads and a desire to die for a perceived purpose. My guess would be that the final analysis will show these terrorists were more lucky then skilful. They were lucky to get past airport security, or airport security was that bad (what do you expect when you use near minimum wage labor with no leadership, vision or goals), they were lucky the passengers never fought back, they were lucky the weather allowed great visibility, they were lucky the cockpit is not secure and they were pretty lucky in hitting their targets. Unfortunately the American people are the unlucky ones, paying the price in pain and suffering, increased taxation and the probable loss of freedom the government solution will entail. I don't know if having a plane load of armed angry drunks crammed into inadequate seating with surly cabin staff is a viable solution. Having a citizenry which is willing to question authority and willing to act accordingly in crisis situations would help but would probably offend the powers that be. From jya at pipeline.com Tue Sep 11 23:29:36 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 23:29:36 -0700 Subject: The 4th Airliner Shot Down? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200109120336.XAA05189@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> Choate wrote: >There was also several eye witnesses that said the first tower was hit by >a missile... I watched on TV a guided missile hit the second tower; this was replayed again and again. Then I saw Kallstrom on TV saying there was no missile, but that "we knew it was not if but when." Though he said "we didn't foresee it exactly this way." I changed my TV-eye-witness testimony immediately, never saw a missile exploding inside the tower. What I saw were two tall buildings collapsing exactly the way intended, without identifiable cause. CIA is working on reenactment that will show there was no lack of intelligence, no reason to suspect anything other than an accident, despite the ususal paranoid ravings. Why, for example, would jet-qualified pilots become involved in terrorist actions? Bin Laden had a jet pilot, trained in the US, who ferried bin Laden's jet from the US to Sudan. After a while he tried to quit the job but a Bin Laden aide threatened the pilot's family. The pilot pondered that then went to the US Embassy to cut a deal to confess what he knew in exchange for getting a new life in the US. We know from the Egypt air crash that some pilots are cooperatively suicidal when their families are at risk. From sunder at anon7.arachelian.com Tue Sep 11 20:43:12 2001 From: sunder at anon7.arachelian.com (Sunder) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 23:43:12 -0400 (edt) Subject: Manhattan Mid-Afternoon In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010911193032.00b1d378@mail.rebelbase.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Normen Nomesco wrote: > Oh and Im sure having guns on board planes would work out great > especially considering the increase of people having huge fucking fits > and having to be held down on planes, yeah, lets arm people on planes. > Have you ever fucking even been on a plan? I wouldn't trust most of my fellow > monkeys with a sharp edge on the free peanuts. Fuck you and get a clue. You're assuming that 90% of the population is irresponsible for itself. Today, I know for a fact that we are good, honest, law abiding folk. No doubt, no ifs, no buts. I didn't see looting, I didn't see insanity, I didn't see a single soul that did not try and help his fellow exodee (if you would allow me the lattitude in inventing the word.) In fact, most people are not going to go around killing each other. Even if they could. Most people are going to help each other. Have you ever thought it out for a second past the media bullshit you'v been spoon fed about how guns are evil? They're not evil, they're tools. They're equalizers. They make the smallest pipsqueak equal to the tallest muscular bad ass out there. And that in itself is why we need them. Two factors: a) 90+% of the population isn't interested in hurting others. B) when those that would pop out from under their rocks, they would be surrounded by those who would put them out of everyone's misery without the slightest hesitation. > I am sickened that you would make this correlation in an attempt > to further the banner of gun proliferation. > > Did you ever stop to think that > UM... > If you could bring a gun on board a plane, the terrorist would have GUNS > instead of knifes and cardboard cutters. Yes, and didn't you stop to think for a second that if a single terrorist had a gun, but he was surrounded by fifty others against him with guns that he would not survive? Even if he were suicidal? Think for a second. Yes, he could put his gun to the head of a child next to him, and quite likely suceede in murdering that child. But he would not be able to achieve any goals whatsoever. HE would be shot down instantly without mercy. A terrorist's goal is a simple one. TO force others to his will. If he knows he will die and is willing to die, he will do this gladly as we saw today. But if he knows that he will die and not achive his goals, if the price is one terrorist's life for that of an innocent versus eight terrorists for the price of 20,000, he wouldn't even attempt such a thing. > Yeah, im sure mr fat and lazy American middle class business man > with his .38 and his 20 hours on the range will be able to easily take on > someone who has spent 30 years fighting as a terrorist and being trained > sine he was 10 years old. I'm 100% positive that a single armed terrorist with the best training in the world would perish within seconds at the hands of 50+ such businessmen before taking out more than several victims. To understand this, you must think as they did. They suceeded in sacrificing eight of their lives on two planes - or so the reports say 3-4 ragheads per plan with sharp implements managed to raze at least three buildings. I don't know how many died, but they said that over 10,000 people worked at EACH of those buildings. I hope most of them managed to get out. Back to the point: the bastards did the math just as well. Eight of their lives for 20,000 of ours. If everyone had guns, even if the terrorists also had guns, 4 guys in a plan of 120 would not have been able to force the plane to become a bomb. Simple, cold, math. You can add, can't you? > Fighting against some of the best and well equipped > formal militaries in the world, the equivalent of a hyper religious > navy seal. Bullshit, they had knives and sharp instruments. No matter how well trained a killer is, he is no match for odds like 120 to 4 against. Yes, I grant you, of those 120, many would have died. But not thousands. > I can see it now, 2 blue haired republican nuns with .22 took them on and > won and the world was safe. And why the fuck not. Guns again are equalizers, They make the weakest of us into an equal of the strongest of them. > Yeah, I am sure that having guns on the plane would have saved everyone. No, not everyone. But that would have saved 20,000 lives at a cost of perhaps three or four innocents. > Even on this list, I rarely say it > your a fucking moron Look in the mirror. Learn the math. Learn the crime statistics of those cities and states that outright ban guns versus those that don't. Then perhaps you can remove your socialist gun-paranoid foot from that hole you utter words with. From sunder at anon7.arachelian.com Tue Sep 11 20:43:12 2001 From: sunder at anon7.arachelian.com (Sunder) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 23:43:12 -0400 (edt) Subject: Manhattan Mid-Afternoon In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010911193032.00b1d378@mail.rebelbase.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Normen Nomesco wrote: > Oh and Im sure having guns on board planes would work out great > especially considering the increase of people having huge fucking fits > and having to be held down on planes, yeah, lets arm people on planes. > Have you ever fucking even been on a plan? I wouldn't trust most of my fellow > monkeys with a sharp edge on the free peanuts. Fuck you and get a clue. You're assuming that 90% of the population is irresponsible for itself. Today, I know for a fact that we are good, honest, law abiding folk. No doubt, no ifs, no buts. I didn't see looting, I didn't see insanity, I didn't see a single soul that did not try and help his fellow exodee (if you would allow me the lattitude in inventing the word.) In fact, most people are not going to go around killing each other. Even if they could. Most people are going to help each other. Have you ever thought it out for a second past the media bullshit you'v been spoon fed about how guns are evil? They're not evil, they're tools. They're equalizers. They make the smallest pipsqueak equal to the tallest muscular bad ass out there. And that in itself is why we need them. Two factors: a) 90+% of the population isn't interested in hurting others. B) when those that would pop out from under their rocks, they would be surrounded by those who would put them out of everyone's misery without the slightest hesitation. > I am sickened that you would make this correlation in an attempt > to further the banner of gun proliferation. > > Did you ever stop to think that > UM... > If you could bring a gun on board a plane, the terrorist would have GUNS > instead of knifes and cardboard cutters. Yes, and didn't you stop to think for a second that if a single terrorist had a gun, but he was surrounded by fifty others against him with guns that he would not survive? Even if he were suicidal? Think for a second. Yes, he could put his gun to the head of a child next to him, and quite likely suceede in murdering that child. But he would not be able to achieve any goals whatsoever. HE would be shot down instantly without mercy. A terrorist's goal is a simple one. TO force others to his will. If he knows he will die and is willing to die, he will do this gladly as we saw today. But if he knows that he will die and not achive his goals, if the price is one terrorist's life for that of an innocent versus eight terrorists for the price of 20,000, he wouldn't even attempt such a thing. > Yeah, im sure mr fat and lazy American middle class business man > with his .38 and his 20 hours on the range will be able to easily take on > someone who has spent 30 years fighting as a terrorist and being trained > sine he was 10 years old. I'm 100% positive that a single armed terrorist with the best training in the world would perish within seconds at the hands of 50+ such businessmen before taking out more than several victims. To understand this, you must think as they did. They suceeded in sacrificing eight of their lives on two planes - or so the reports say 3-4 ragheads per plan with sharp implements managed to raze at least three buildings. I don't know how many died, but they said that over 10,000 people worked at EACH of those buildings. I hope most of them managed to get out. Back to the point: the bastards did the math just as well. Eight of their lives for 20,000 of ours. If everyone had guns, even if the terrorists also had guns, 4 guys in a plan of 120 would not have been able to force the plane to become a bomb. Simple, cold, math. You can add, can't you? > Fighting against some of the best and well equipped > formal militaries in the world, the equivalent of a hyper religious > navy seal. Bullshit, they had knives and sharp instruments. No matter how well trained a killer is, he is no match for odds like 120 to 4 against. Yes, I grant you, of those 120, many would have died. But not thousands. > I can see it now, 2 blue haired republican nuns with .22 took them on and > won and the world was safe. And why the fuck not. Guns again are equalizers, They make the weakest of us into an equal of the strongest of them. > Yeah, I am sure that having guns on the plane would have saved everyone. No, not everyone. But that would have saved 20,000 lives at a cost of perhaps three or four innocents. > Even on this list, I rarely say it > your a fucking moron Look in the mirror. Learn the math. Learn the crime statistics of those cities and states that outright ban guns versus those that don't. Then perhaps you can remove your socialist gun-paranoid foot from that hole you utter words with. From sunder at anon7.arachelian.com Tue Sep 11 20:45:08 2001 From: sunder at anon7.arachelian.com (Sunder) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 23:45:08 -0400 (edt) Subject: NSA monitors domestic cellular In-Reply-To: <91A43FE1FA9BD411A8D200D0B785C15E286937@MISSERVER> Message-ID: This is, I hate to say it, the one time I am glad that they can do this. I hope they can find out who is responsible for this. I hope some other brave souls were able to use their cell phones to provide clues to find these bastards. No, I'm still opposed to the NSA's invasion of our privacy. But in a twisted way, I hope they can track these fuckers down. ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :aren't security. A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :masked killer, but |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often. --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Jonathan Wienke wrote: > ABC news anchor Peter Jennings just said that the NSA is going through their recordings of cellular phone calls to see if they can find other cellular calls similar to the one from Ted Olson's wife who was on the plane that crashed into the Pentagon. > > From sunder at anon7.arachelian.com Tue Sep 11 20:45:08 2001 From: sunder at anon7.arachelian.com (Sunder) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 23:45:08 -0400 (edt) Subject: NSA monitors domestic cellular In-Reply-To: <91A43FE1FA9BD411A8D200D0B785C15E286937@MISSERVER> Message-ID: This is, I hate to say it, the one time I am glad that they can do this. I hope they can find out who is responsible for this. I hope some other brave souls were able to use their cell phones to provide clues to find these bastards. No, I'm still opposed to the NSA's invasion of our privacy. But in a twisted way, I hope they can track these fuckers down. ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :aren't security. A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :masked killer, but |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often. --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Jonathan Wienke wrote: > ABC news anchor Peter Jennings just said that the NSA is going through their recordings of cellular phone calls to see if they can find other cellular calls similar to the one from Ted Olson's wife who was on the plane that crashed into the Pentagon. From sunder at anon7.arachelian.com Tue Sep 11 20:53:06 2001 From: sunder at anon7.arachelian.com (Sunder) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 23:53:06 -0400 (edt) Subject: Manhattan Mid-Afternoon In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010911200202.02e93b08@mail.rebelbase.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Normen Nomesco wrote: > > >At gun ranges across the country, where just about everybody is armed, > >physical violence is virtually nonexistent. Ever wonder why this is the > >case? After thinking about it for a while, even the slower ones amongst us > >might be able to figure out the cause. > > Gun ranges are places were reasonable people go in a normal state of mind > a gun range is not the real world > > the real world does not have a weapons master on site > and you are not given ear plugs and the chance to reload > No shit Sherlock, when did that dawn upon you? But hey, guess what? When you go to driving school, you have nice stickers on the car that say "Student Driver" and you have an instructor (car master?) who has a second brake incase you fuck up so you can learn. But once you leave the driving school and have your license, you're in the real world. You don't have the student driver stickers, nor the "car master" next to you. In an airplane with 3-4 terrorists, you'd presumably be one passenger of 120. If even 5% of the passengers had guns, none would have to reload. I highly doubt that they would need a weapons master to tell them how to hold a gun. I certainly think that most people would be glad they were alive and unhurt thanks to said gun carriers, and would mind the ringing in their ears far less than being dead. And certainly assuming most guns have at least 6 shots, multiplied by 6 people (that's 5% of 120 people) would give you 36 shots to put 4 assholes out of everyone's misery, I don't think you have to worry about reloading. You have very little to add to this conversation Mr. Anti Gun. From sunder at anon7.arachelian.com Tue Sep 11 20:53:06 2001 From: sunder at anon7.arachelian.com (Sunder) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 23:53:06 -0400 (edt) Subject: Manhattan Mid-Afternoon In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010911200202.02e93b08@mail.rebelbase.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Normen Nomesco wrote: > > >At gun ranges across the country, where just about everybody is armed, > >physical violence is virtually nonexistent. Ever wonder why this is the > >case? After thinking about it for a while, even the slower ones amongst us > >might be able to figure out the cause. > > Gun ranges are places were reasonable people go in a normal state of mind > a gun range is not the real world > > the real world does not have a weapons master on site > and you are not given ear plugs and the chance to reload > No shit Sherlock, when did that dawn upon you? But hey, guess what? When you go to driving school, you have nice stickers on the car that say "Student Driver" and you have an instructor (car master?) who has a second brake incase you fuck up so you can learn. But once you leave the driving school and have your license, you're in the real world. You don't have the student driver stickers, nor the "car master" next to you. In an airplane with 3-4 terrorists, you'd presumably be one passenger of 120. If even 5% of the passengers had guns, none would have to reload. I highly doubt that they would need a weapons master to tell them how to hold a gun. I certainly think that most people would be glad they were alive and unhurt thanks to said gun carriers, and would mind the ringing in their ears far less than being dead. And certainly assuming most guns have at least 6 shots, multiplied by 6 people (that's 5% of 120 people) would give you 36 shots to put 4 assholes out of everyone's misery, I don't think you have to worry about reloading. You have very little to add to this conversation Mr. Anti Gun. From attila at hun.org Tue Sep 11 16:55:01 2001 From: attila at hun.org (attila!) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 23:55:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Less talk, more action Message-ID: <20010911235501.DDAE13465A@hun.org> This is not the time to "investigate" and "blame" --it's time to turn Iraq into a glass parking lot and Afghanistan into a cinder. It takes less than 30 minutes to re-target and deliver the ordnance... I'll settle for the Casablanca Inspector: "round up the usual suspects". Anything less than a dramatic response of 'shoot first and ask questions when there is silence' is insufficient. Bin Laden may have been capable of placing the hijacking teams, but Iraq is the clear beneficiary. Bin Laden may get revenge, but Saddam gets an opening. A ground war against Iraq's legions would be foolish --the Gulf war was won against his hordes by pulverizing them with carpet bombing and demoralizing them --by the time our troops moved, there was virtually no resistance. I'm automatically ruling out North Korea (not capable); Iran (enough problems of their own and not capable of sustained action); Russia (not in their best interests); and China (could not afford the economics of war). Bin Laden is bent on revenge, and Saddam is a megalomaniac who does not care if his people are targeted. If Bush fails to take a dramatic step, eg: incinerate Baghdad, then the talking heads will be playing Neville Chamberlain; the UN will "condemn" the action while accusing the US of creating the conditions which brought on the attack; and, Iraq and the rest of the Arabs, etc. have the opportunity to play counter-threats.... If the US waits to retaliate, the Arabs will show a united front --if Iraq is gone before they can even start to argue among themselves, there will be muted satisfaction in their governments that Saddam's head was finally delivered on a platter. If the retaliation is fait accompli, nobody has time to comment --and no-one, other than perhaps the Syrians will mourn the loss of Baghdad. If Iraq is not permanently neutralized, they will power strike across Jordan and Syria into Israel --at that point, the Israelis will preemptively nuke Baghdad. From a strategic standpoint, it would be far preferable for the US to do its own dirty work than accept world opinion that the US was either a) too impotent to clean its own mess; or, b) that Israel was the pawn, thereby uniting the Arabs. We probably have upwards of 20,000 dead in NYC alone; now is not the time to be squeamish about collateral damage in foreign targets. Lastly, what the US does in the first hours will determine the US' ability to prosecute the action in its entirety. Today we determine whether or not America has the will to survive. If we falter, the whole world will kick us when we are down --eg: the third vision begins. Make us proud to be Americans, George... From ravage at ssz.com Tue Sep 11 21:58:48 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 23:58:48 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [psychohistory] What can a Society Do? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Chen Yixiong, Eric wrote: > > Actually it isn't Godel's (which just says some statements can't be found > > definitively true or false - it is undecidable). However, Arrow's > > Impossibility Theorem does(!) do exactly what you want. > > > According to the Theorem page at: > http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/m/j/mjd1/arrowimpossibilitytheorem.htm > > I think I did not draw parallels to my writings below. ???? That sentence is without meaning as worded. > The theorm seems to apply for democratic systems, but here I write about > systems in general. But that's exactly(!) why Arrow's applies. Fairness (ie democratic) as individual choice (ie vote). The fact that there are no democratic (ie fair) mechanisms by which to make selections is what damns Crypt-Anarchic-Capitalist-Libertarian (CACL) thought. A good example is to apply voting theory to David Friedmans law by contract examples. One can cast CACL thought as democratic thought except for a single difference. Democratic thought requires all to be responsible to the same set of rules and policies. CACL doesn't. CACL thought has three fundamental flaws. One, it requires individuals to behave in a manner inconsistent with their biology. People ain't rational in any sort of consistent manner. Second, it says that if we get rid of government people will resolve their own problems. However, this statement can be turned into a 'democratic election' (ie the participants have their own choices to make - a vote) yet we can prove mathematically that such a solution is impossible if there are more than two (2) participants. Now I don't know about you but anything worthy of the label 'society' must have more than two (2) people involved. Finaly, it assumes that all issues and decisions one makes in life can be reduced to 'economic' decisions. While that is certainly possible it is clear that not all issues are deal with equitably in such a manner. (It's also applicable to Tim May's commentary a while back about the 'solved n-division' problem (which can also be shown to be a vote if the remainder is indivisible or can't be re-connected) and the fact that he seems to think that the solution that is out there now is universal. When in fact it applies to such a small fraction of n-division problems as to be worthless. The proof is in the 'remainder' and it's characteristics. Most of reality doesn't comply with the requirements for 'fair divisibility' - too granular.) > I think we had referred to different versions of Godel's Theorem, where > I use this version : "No system of rules can have both completeness and > consistency (including social systems applied to humans)". But a social system isn't (just) a 'system of rules'. It also has beliefs and various cause-effect and dependency issues related to environment and biology that cause Godel's to be inapplicable. The fact that it consists of anything(!) more than a system of rules is enough to invalidate Godel's. Godel's simply isn't applicable to a broad enough set of examples. Though Godel's may keep you from proving it). The reality is that the concept of 'social system' is entirely too broad for the conept of 'self-consistent language' to be applied. Where did the requirement for 'consistency' in a social setting come from in the first place? And what does 'consistency' actually mean in that context? A naive interpretation might be that they always make decisions the same way or perhaps the same selection. Either will fail because it won't respond to changes in the environment. Clearly in conflict with the premise of being 'consistent'. -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Tue Sep 11 22:00:03 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 00:00:03 -0500 (CDT) Subject: NSA monitors domestic cellular In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Derek Balling wrote: > Doesn't domestic surveillance of civilian cel-phone calls, without a > warrant, fall into a really "Gray"[1] area? I thought NSA wasn't > permitted to do that... If it goes out of the country it isn't domestic. -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From faithandvalues at yahoo.com Wed Sep 12 00:08:56 2001 From: faithandvalues at yahoo.com (FaithandValues.com) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 00:08:56 Subject: Faith Groups Respond To "Attack On America" Message-ID: <200109120350.UAA22835@ecotone.toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3220 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sunder at anon7.arachelian.com Tue Sep 11 21:14:43 2001 From: sunder at anon7.arachelian.com (Sunder) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 00:14:43 -0400 (edt) Subject: The 4th Airliner Shot Down? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Jim Choate wrote: > There was also several eye witnesses that said the first tower was hit by > a missile... They were right. The plane was effectively a missle, and come to think of it not a bomb. Bomb is something that isn't launched, it's carried or dropped. A missle is launched, it flies. Like the planes. Yes, of course plane!=missle, but in this case, it effectively was. Granted, there will almost always be a witness that will say it was aliens from the 8th dimention too... > Clearly these people don't have a clue of the size differential. > > I would be so bold to say that since the New York crash a few years ago > that there will almost always be a witness that saw a 'missile'. From sunder at anon7.arachelian.com Tue Sep 11 21:14:43 2001 From: sunder at anon7.arachelian.com (Sunder) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 00:14:43 -0400 (edt) Subject: The 4th Airliner Shot Down? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Jim Choate wrote: > There was also several eye witnesses that said the first tower was hit by > a missile... They were right. The plane was effectively a missle, and come to think of it not a bomb. Bomb is something that isn't launched, it's carried or dropped. A missle is launched, it flies. Like the planes. Yes, of course plane!=missle, but in this case, it effectively was. Granted, there will almost always be a witness that will say it was aliens from the 8th dimention too... > Clearly these people don't have a clue of the size differential. > > I would be so bold to say that since the New York crash a few years ago > that there will almost always be a witness that saw a 'missile'. > From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Tue Sep 11 22:16:56 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 00:16:56 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Manhattan Mid-Afternoon In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010911215648.02ed0580@mail.rebelbase.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Normen Nomesco wrote: > How about odds of 20 to 1 with the one having a knife.... If you don't you die. No if's, no and's, no but's. If you do, you (and others) got a chance... I've always held that rational, ethical, moral police policy (and social expectation) for any sort of hostage situation is for each and every hostage to throw, strike, and otherwise assault anybody that threatens them. Just think of the result at say Columbine if instead of running each and every person there had made it their personal duty to attack those two kids. Not only would a smaller number have been hurt and killed but any copy cat would think twice about repeating it (a clear and present danger in todays media hyped nut house). There was a day when we actually taught gun safety and use in public schools to our kids... Make the beggars eyes bleed. Don't buy into the nuts fantasy. People only take hostages they believe can be bullied into compliance. Take that away from them and what do they have? -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From sunder at anon7.arachelian.com Tue Sep 11 21:24:48 2001 From: sunder at anon7.arachelian.com (Sunder) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 00:24:48 -0400 (edt) Subject: NSA monitors domestic cellular In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "National security"is the passphrase to the constitution. Or haven't you noticed. In this case, I don't think anyone will complain very loudly. In this case, for once, the NSA would be right, and it wouldn't just be FUD. ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :aren't security. A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :masked killer, but |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often. --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Derek Balling wrote: > Doesn't domestic surveillance of civilian cel-phone calls, without a > warrant, fall into a really "Gray"[1] area? I thought NSA wasn't > permitted to do that... > > D > > [1] For suitably dark and illegal values of gray > > At 12:36 AM -0400 9/12/01, afbrown at bellatlantic.net wrote: > >A great deal more the cellulars are monitored > >Specifically all outbound domectic traffic with an international IP > >address and all inbound > >traffic from abroard is parsed for key words and phases. > > > >Jonathan Wienke wrote: > > > >> ABC news anchor Peter Jennings just said that the NSA is going > >>through their recordings of cellular phone calls to see if they can > >>find other cellular calls similar to the one from Ted Olson's wife > >>who was on the plane that crashed into the Pentagon. > > > -- > +---------------------+-----------------------------------------+ > | dredd at megacity.org | "Conan! What is best in life?" | > | Derek J. Balling | "To crush your enemies, see them | > | | driven before you, and to hear the | > | | lamentation of their women!" | > +---------------------+-----------------------------------------+ > From sunder at anon7.arachelian.com Tue Sep 11 21:24:48 2001 From: sunder at anon7.arachelian.com (Sunder) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 00:24:48 -0400 (edt) Subject: NSA monitors domestic cellular In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "National security"is the passphrase to the constitution. Or haven't you noticed. In this case, I don't think anyone will complain very loudly. In this case, for once, the NSA would be right, and it wouldn't just be FUD. ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :aren't security. A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :masked killer, but |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often. --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Derek Balling wrote: > Doesn't domestic surveillance of civilian cel-phone calls, without a > warrant, fall into a really "Gray"[1] area? I thought NSA wasn't > permitted to do that... > > D > > [1] For suitably dark and illegal values of gray > > At 12:36 AM -0400 9/12/01, afbrown at bellatlantic.net wrote: > >A great deal more the cellulars are monitored > >Specifically all outbound domectic traffic with an international IP > >address and all inbound > >traffic from abroard is parsed for key words and phases. > > > >Jonathan Wienke wrote: > > > >> ABC news anchor Peter Jennings just said that the NSA is going > >>through their recordings of cellular phone calls to see if they can > >>find other cellular calls similar to the one from Ted Olson's wife > >>who was on the plane that crashed into the Pentagon. > > > -- > +---------------------+-----------------------------------------+ > | dredd at megacity.org | "Conan! What is best in life?" | > | Derek J. Balling | "To crush your enemies, see them | > | | driven before you, and to hear the | > | | lamentation of their women!" | > +---------------------+-----------------------------------------+ From ravage at ssz.com Tue Sep 11 22:31:52 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 00:31:52 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [msal-politics] Re: [psychohistory] What can a Society Do? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Chen Yixiong, Eric wrote: > Pardon my ignorance, but I would like to know, in a clear, consise language, > about the above examples that can constitute "more than a set ot rules". The love of a mother for her child. Hunger from not having eaten in a week. A crazy guy killing his wife and kids in a rampage. A drunken driver who has an accident. Bottom line, Life is more than 'a set of rules'. It is an experience. -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From sunder at anon7.arachelian.com Tue Sep 11 21:33:50 2001 From: sunder at anon7.arachelian.com (Sunder) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 00:33:50 -0400 (edt) Subject: Manhattan Mid-Afternoon In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010911215648.02ed0580@mail.rebelbase.com> Message-ID: I'd still fucking rush them if I had been there. If anything it would wake everyone else up to do the same. ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :aren't security. A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :masked killer, but |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often. --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Normen Nomesco wrote: > > >I'm 100% positive that a single armed terrorist with the best training in > >the world would perish within seconds at the hands of 50+ such businessmen > >before taking out more than several victims. To understand this, you must > >think as they did. > > Then how come 84 unarmed people could not take aproximatly 4 people armed > with razor blades. > Agh, I see it, they didn't have guns. Shit 10 kids could probably rush and > take an adult > armed with a knife, if they rushed him. At least one terrorist was flying, > so what thats > 84 people against 3 armed with exacto razor blades? > > > Bullshit, they had knives and sharp instruments. No matter how well > >trained a killer is, he is no match for odds like 120 to 4 against. > > How about odds of 20 to 1 with the one having a knife.... > > > --- > > > From sunder at anon7.arachelian.com Tue Sep 11 21:33:50 2001 From: sunder at anon7.arachelian.com (Sunder) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 00:33:50 -0400 (edt) Subject: Manhattan Mid-Afternoon In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010911215648.02ed0580@mail.rebelbase.com> Message-ID: I'd still fucking rush them if I had been there. If anything it would wake everyone else up to do the same. ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :aren't security. A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :masked killer, but |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often. --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Normen Nomesco wrote: > > >I'm 100% positive that a single armed terrorist with the best training in > >the world would perish within seconds at the hands of 50+ such businessmen > >before taking out more than several victims. To understand this, you must > >think as they did. > > Then how come 84 unarmed people could not take aproximatly 4 people armed > with razor blades. > Agh, I see it, they didn't have guns. Shit 10 kids could probably rush and > take an adult > armed with a knife, if they rushed him. At least one terrorist was flying, > so what thats > 84 people against 3 armed with exacto razor blades? > > > Bullshit, they had knives and sharp instruments. No matter how well > >trained a killer is, he is no match for odds like 120 to 4 against. > > How about odds of 20 to 1 with the one having a knife.... > > > --- From afbrown at bellatlantic.net Tue Sep 11 21:36:39 2001 From: afbrown at bellatlantic.net (afbrown at bellatlantic.net) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 00:36:39 -0400 Subject: NSA monitors domestic cellular References: <91A43FE1FA9BD411A8D200D0B785C15E286937@MISSERVER> Message-ID: <3B9EE657.191CB1E9@mailbox.bellatlantic.net> A great deal more the cellulars are monitored Specifically all outbound domectic traffic with an international IP address and all inbound traffic from abroard is parsed for key words and phases. Jonathan Wienke wrote: > ABC news anchor Peter Jennings just said that the NSA is going through their recordings of cellular phone calls to see if they can find other cellular calls similar to the one from Ted Olson's wife who was on the plane that crashed into the Pentagon. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Wed Sep 12 00:47:45 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 00:47:45 -0700 Subject: The 4th Airliner Shot Down? In-Reply-To: <200109120336.XAA05189@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> References: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010912004105.031342b0@idiom.com> The airliner that crashed in Pennsylvania was the one where one of the passengers called his family on the cellphone and said (after other things) they were going to try to rush the hijackers. I'm not sure if that's the same plane where the cellphone caller said the hijackers claimed to have a bomb or not, but even if they *said* that it doesn't mean they really had one. So it could have been a bomb, or it could have been a fight in the cockpit. At 11:29 PM 09/11/2001 -0700, John Young wrote: >Why, for example, would jet-qualified pilots become involved in >terrorist actions? Bin Laden had a jet pilot, trained in the US, >who ferried bin Laden's jet from the US to Sudan. After >a while he tried to quit the job but a Bin Laden aide >threatened the pilot's family. The pilot pondered that >then went to the US Embassy to cut a deal to confess what >he knew in exchange for getting a new life in the US. > >We know from the Egypt air crash that some pilots are >cooperatively suicidal when their families are at risk. Some of the pilots may also have had family killed by Israel or by US bombings in Iraq or the ten years of blockade -- today's (pre-bombing) Marin County CA paper had an opinion-page column by somebody who just had permits rejected by the US export bureaucrats for water chlorination systems they were trying to export to Iraq; they smuggled them there anyway because unsafe water is *still* the leading cause of death in Iraq. Soldiers who are really angry are sometimes willing to do suicidal attacks. From jw at bway.net Tue Sep 11 17:54:03 2001 From: jw at bway.net (jw at bway.net) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 00:54:03 GMT Subject: A hard rain Message-ID: Every morning these days I take the subway from Brooklyn Heights to the World Trade Center, where I catch the PATH train to Newark. I arrived at WTC at 9 this morning, exited the subway and walked through the long underground passageway to WTC One. Usually there is a violinist there, and he often is playing the Godfather theme around the time I get there. I didn't notice him this morning. I could tell something was going on by the way people were milling around, and by the unusual crush of people trying to exit to the street up a staircase not usually so crowded. A uniformed subway employee was standing there, telling us we could not proceed through the door to the World Trade Center, and for a public official directing human traffic, she was unusually hysterical: "There are terrorists....go back that way," gesturing towards the subway. And most of the crowd started off obediently back towards the trains. At that moment the people going up the stairs began running down the stairs back into the passageway. I decided to go upstairs, against the flow, partly out of idiot curiosity, partly because if something was happening I felt safer in the open than in a tin can in a narrow tunnel. On the street, I could see that WTC One was burning from its upper stories; curlicues of paper were floating down, glittering in the light, an eerily beautiful and incongruous effect. I saw people running past, some of them crying, as I stood immobilized, watching the flames. Then there was an explosion, and fragments of glass rained down on my head. I saw a huge hole in the roof of a building two blocks from World Trade Center. I thought there were incoming projectiles of some kind, missiles or mortars, and began running away from the burning buildings, up Church Street to Chambers, wondering what would blow up next. At some point, as emergency vehicles sped past with screaming sirens towards the disaster, I concluded that the best thing I could do was make a run for the Brooklyn Bridge and walk home to Brooklyn Heights, so I headed that way down Chambers. My brain was clicking over very quickly: the municipal buildings might be another target, and I had to pass close to them to get to the bridge; or terrorists might blow up a van in the middle of the bridge itself and try to bring it down with the hundreds of people crossing it on foot, escaping lower Manhattan. There's another click that happens: fuck it, I could blow up anywhere, I'm just going to do the best I can. I hesitated a moment at the entry to the bridge, watching the two towers burning, thinking about the people who were dying and suffering there. A van, driven by two Arab-looking men, proceeded slowly onto the bridge; I let it get far ahead of me then started to walk, looking back over my shoulder repeatedly at the burning towers. Someone behind me shouted, "There are people jumping!" and I turned to see a black dot, almost certainly a human dot, fall from the top of a tower. I was on the bridge about a half-hour. The lane into Manhattan was closed to everything but emergency vehicles but the roadway to Brooklyn was packed with cars, some of them stopping midway on the bridge while the occupants got out to look at the flames. I heard a bang and flinched around to see that a driver opening his door had hit a motorcycle, throwing its riders to the ground; motorcyclist and driver started screaming into each other's faces in typical New York style--"You shouldn't have been white-lining!"--an expression I had never heard before. A few minutes after I got home I was watching live coverage on CNN as World Trade Center 2 collapsed, then building 1 a few minutes later. This afternoon a report that no attempt is being made to search the wreckage of the building looking for survivors until the fires burn out....Two hundred firefighters are missing, and 78 police. No-one will even venture to say how many people total are entombed in the wreckage tonight. I went to give blood at an over-whelmed Red Cross center where they sent us away and told us to come back in a few hours. But when I came back they had run out of supplies and closed, as had the other center in the neighborhood. I am watching the endless recycling of the same news on CNN. Where is our government? With the exception of the White House counsel, who gave a brief press conference, the only talking heads on CNN are ex-government types; they found Henry Kissinger, but the President, the Secretary of State, the Secretary of Defense are all in hiding, perhaps in some simalacrum of the War Room from Dr. Strangelove: "Gentlemen, you can't fight here, Its the War Room." Right now an expert on CNN is saying, "The plane was the bomb." The terms of reference changed today. Planes are bombs, the World Trade Center can fall, and the President is hiding. The police and firefighters, who are supposed to rescue us, are standing by and letting the flames burn out because it is too dangerous to go in. I thought of Bob Dylan: the glass I picked out of my hair an hour later was a hard rain. I've stepped in the middle of seven sad forests, I've been out in front of a dozen dead oceans, I've been ten thousand miles in the mouth of a graveyard, And it's a hard, and it's a hard, it's a hard, and it's a hard, And it's a hard rain's a-gonna fall. I'm left with a few mixed, jangling thoughts. As I wrote in last month's Spectacle, http://www.spectacle.org/0801/shield.html, why bother building the National Missile Defense, a classic example of fighting the last war, when the next war--the current war--will be fought using our own planes as bombs? I think that monsters exist among us. Considering how easy it turned out to be to bring down the federal building in Oklahoma City with a truckful of fertilizer, the only reason more people haven't done something like it is because we have some sort of internal governor that makes most of us not want to. And planes haven't previously been used as bombs this way because people who could fly them were restrained, possibly by this governor, and possibly by a stronger one, the desire not to die. But the governors are weaker than they were, while the technology gets stronger. CNN kept reporting that the Trade Center buildings were built to resist a hit from a 707, but when 737's and 767's were invented, there was no way to upgrade them. But we are not unresponsible for the monsters; they are responsible for themselves, certainly, as moral actors, but we did our part in their creation. We funded and trained the Afghanistan resistance against the Russians, who later turned on us; but more than that, when we squeeze people and crush them, make them live in humiliation and without the air and water, autonomy and self respect necessary to sustain them as humans, we make monsters. Any chaotic outsider on the margins can kill himself in order to take out others, but when the first Israeli Arab fifty-three year old politician does it (as happened last week) or the first pilot does it (as happened today) we must take notice. What happens next I don't really know, but I know what I fear: that we will embark, like the Israelis and Palestinians, on a mindless spasm of killing and counter-killing; that civil liberties and freedom of speech will be curtailed; that the president, with his powerful backers, his deer-in-the-headlights look and his primitive philosophy, will not see the line before crossing it, or won't care. Getting out of Manhattan this morning, out from the shadow of the burning towers, was like a walk in the park, compared to what I think is going to come. I tried to read this morning's newspaper this afternoon, but the pre-bombing news seemed irrelevant, like news from twenty years ago. [Note from Matthew Gaylor: Jonathan Wallace is a long time subscriber to Freematt's Alerts, a NYC Software executive and publisher of The Ethical Spectacle http://www.spectacle.org. ] ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************** From wedava at yahoo.com Tue Sep 11 15:29:40 2001 From: wedava at yahoo.com (Renk) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 01:29:40 +0300 Subject: Base for you! Message-ID: <200109112210.PAA21902@ecotone.toad.com> "���� ������ ����� �� ������ - 2001" - ��������� ������! ��� ���������� �� ����� ���������� �� ��� ������! �.�.�. � �������� ����� ���������, ���� � ����� �����������, ���������� � �.�. �������� �� CD. ���������- 45$. ������ �� megew_y at pochta.org From decoy at iki.fi Tue Sep 11 17:00:07 2001 From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 03:00:07 +0300 (EEST) Subject: FC: Anonymous remailer operators start to take remailers offline In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Aimee Farr wrote: >They are broadcasting the hotlines/website: http://www.ifcc.fbi.gov >(slashdotted, on my end). Actually that's http://www.ifccfbi.gov/ , and yes, it's almost slashdotted. The IFCC comes from Internet Fraud Complaint Center, and it seems it is a preexisting .gov website. The frontpage says: "The Internet Fraud Complaint Center (IFCC) is a partnership between the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) and the National White Collar Crime Center (NW3C). IFCC's mission is to address fraud committed over the Internet." That does not sound good at all -- it's likely the public FBI and/or CIA servers could handle a higher load, yet they've decided to use an Internet fraud reporting site for this incident. Do they think online circles have some special role in all this? They *have* been touting Osama as a "wired" terrorist for some time... Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy, mailto:decoy at iki.fi, gsm: +358-50-5756111 student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front From mattd at useoz.com Tue Sep 11 11:01:03 2001 From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 04:01:03 +1000 Subject: cryptorepression Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010912035442.009e9810@pop.useoz.com> Brace,brace,brace...rogue nations are dangerous while merely wounded.Operation soft drills needed to deliver coup de gras.Not easy I know,and even more difficult now,but the last empires past its use by date.War of the flea now must become war of the killer bee. From Victor5891 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 12 15:12:32 2001 From: Victor5891 at yahoo.com (Adams) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 05:12:32 -1700 Subject: [Newsletter]Natural Cuture Handicraft Art from Asia Message-ID: <1000246352.550@com> {\rtf1\ansi\deff0\deftab720{\fonttbl{\f0\fnil MS Sans Serif;}{\f1\froman\fcharset2 Symbol;}{\f2\fswiss\fcharset1 MS Sans Serif;}} {\colortbl\red0\green0\blue0;} \deflang1033\pard\plain\f2\fs22\cf0 \par We offer special promotion of this month. \par And free handicraft gift for you every week. \par Find out handicraft gift, made from wood, wood powder, \par wood paper. Colorful animal ,Eagle ,Dragon,Birds, Elephant, Kilin, \par Horse, Wood Lantern, All made by fine handmade ancient \par arts, silver, gold jewelry low price. \par Include ancient style benjarong 5 colors ancient \par ceramics art of Thailand \par \par Visit our site and get free promotion now!!!! \par www.thaibestcraft.com \par \par to remove from our mail list ,simply press reply with subject= remove \par } ___________________________________________________________________ Send email newsletters to groups for FREE with the trial version of 32bit Email Broadcaster. Visit http://www.electrasoft.com/32bea.htm From dredd at megacity.org Wed Sep 12 06:12:45 2001 From: dredd at megacity.org (Derek Balling) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 06:12:45 -0700 Subject: NSA monitors domestic cellular In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Derek Balling wrote: > >> Doesn't domestic surveillance of civilian cel-phone calls, without a >> warrant, fall into a really "Gray"[1] area? I thought NSA wasn't >> permitted to do that... > >If it goes out of the country it isn't domestic. But the news was reporting about looking for "people who were on the planes calling friends and family" (e.g., other people like that Olson woman on Flt. 93), ... if they're recording THOSE calls then there's a serious question raised of "why". D -- +---------------------+-----------------------------------------+ | dredd at megacity.org | "Conan! What is best in life?" | | Derek J. Balling | "To crush your enemies, see them | | | driven before you, and to hear the | | | lamentation of their women!" | +---------------------+-----------------------------------------+ From dog3 at ns.charc.net Wed Sep 12 03:25:26 2001 From: dog3 at ns.charc.net (cubic-dog) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 06:25:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Manhattan Mid-Afternoon In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010911193032.00b1d378@mail.rebelbase.com> Message-ID: -------------------------------------------------- On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Normen Nomesco wrote: > Oh and Im sure having guns on board planes would work out great > especially considering the increase of people having huge fucking fits > and having to be held down on planes, yeah, lets arm people on planes. > Have you ever fucking even been on a plan? I wouldn't trust most of my fellow > monkeys with a sharp edge on the free peanuts. -------------------------------------------------- Hi Normesco; If you had ever lived in an armed society, you would understand why this isn't the case. I've lived where pretty much everyone was armed pretty much all of the time. I can promise you that this bad, childish behavior simply doesn't occur. Even when folks get very cranked up at one another, the arguments, while heated tend to stay somewhat civil. These reasons you cite for not allowing folks to be armed go away very quickly when the sheepish victim mentality that is inherit in the powerless is removed. When folks are held accountable for their behavior, they behave better. From nobody at dizum.com Tue Sep 11 22:00:56 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 07:00:56 +0200 (CEST) Subject: News group discussion on 9/4 about attacks? Message-ID: FBI members of this list might want to have a look here. http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&frame=right&th=54ab4d241c34e0cc&seekm=3b8fd177%40monitor.lanset.com#link1 (Basically, a poster calling himself Xinoehpoel on the alt.prophecies.nostradamus news group started making noise about a big event to occur on 9/11. He also said he would be "going away" on this date.) The thread is pretty disturbing. If this guy wasn't actually involved with the attacks, I bet he's wishing he'd kept his mouth shut. From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Wed Sep 12 05:24:30 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 07:24:30 -0500 Subject: Report: Five Suspects Identified in NYC Attack Message-ID: <3B9F53FE.3E1FC781@ssz.com> http://us.news2.yimg.com/f/42/31/7m/dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010912/ts/attack_suspects_dc_1.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Wed Sep 12 05:34:12 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 07:34:12 -0500 Subject: SIG: Linux Today - Ideas: The SSSCA and its potential effects Message-ID: <3B9F5644.4E3A8720@ssz.com> http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2001-09-11-011-20-OP-HW-SW -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. 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Four popular versions to choose from: VersaCheck 2001 Personal Home & Business Professional Premium VersaCheck Comes with High Quality Blank Security Check Stock Available Colors: Tan, Burgundy, Green and Blue Sample Check Please call 800-303-2620 for questions or assistance regarding this offer. Thank you very much. Best regards, Stephanie Key Customer Relationship Executive 800-303-2620 To change your communication preferences Click Here or simply reply to this Email with UNSUBSCRIBE in the subject line. Copyright © Globalzon, Inc. All rights reserved. Designated trademarks and brands are the property of their respective owners. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 11472 bytes Desc: not available URL: From declan at well.com Wed Sep 12 05:42:07 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 08:42:07 -0400 Subject: The 4th Airliner Shot Down? In-Reply-To: <200109120256.WAA07019@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>; from jya@pipeline.com on Tue, Sep 11, 2001 at 10:49:49PM -0700 References: <200109120256.WAA07019@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <20010912084207.A16318@cluebot.com> On Tue, Sep 11, 2001 at 10:49:49PM -0700, John Young wrote: > Somebody who claims to be from inside the Pentagon > is saying an F16 shot down the airliner that crashed in > Pennsylvania. Are there news reports of this? > > Also that a number of generals were killed in the > Pentagon. Any news of this? There are a *lot* of generals in the Pentagon. Any attack that takes out hundreds of linear feet of the building is likely to kill some. As for the F16, could be disinformation. The Pittsburgh newspapers quote lots of eyewitnesses, but no mention of a missile: http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010912somerscenenat4p3.asp Also, if you were a pilot held hostage and wanted to crash the plane somewhere, farmland that's a former coal mine would be a good bet. -Declan From dredd at megacity.org Wed Sep 12 08:58:05 2001 From: dredd at megacity.org (Derek Balling) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 08:58:05 -0700 Subject: The 4th Airliner Shot Down? In-Reply-To: References: <200109120336.XAA05189@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: To my knowledge, no. FBI confiscated the 911 tapes yesterday for analysis and investigation, and wouldn't even confirm that the 911 call had taken place... CNN mentioned that yesterday. D At 11:31 AM -0400 9/12/01, Matthew Gaylor wrote: >[Note from Matthew Gaylor: Are any sound files of this 911 call available?] > >http://chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0109120251sep12.story > >From the Chicago Tribune > >911 call preceded fiery Pennsylvania crash > -- +---------------------+-----------------------------------------+ | dredd at megacity.org | "Conan! What is best in life?" | | Derek J. Balling | "To crush your enemies, see them | | | driven before you, and to hear the | | | lamentation of their women!" | +---------------------+-----------------------------------------+ From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Wed Sep 12 06:06:03 2001 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 09:06:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Manhattan Mid-Afternoon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Sunder wrote: > I'd still fucking rush them if I had been there. If anything it would > wake everyone else up to do the same. I'd like to think I would have, but honestly I don't know. Also, if the first rusher is killed, that acts as a negative example for the others. The scene from "Sunshine" where Fiennes is berated for standing aside and watching his father die keeps coming back. Keep in mind that the hostages likely did not know the terrorists were planning to down the plane. For all they knew, they were going to be exchanged for prisoners in Israeli jails. By the time it became clear what was going to happen (if it ever did), it might have been too late. Then it's not "my life vs 20,000" but "my life vs squat if they kill me and retain control." -David From hseaver at ameritech.net Wed Sep 12 08:22:36 2001 From: hseaver at ameritech.net (Harmon Seaver) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 10:22:36 -0500 Subject: Manhattan Mid-Afternoon References: <3B9E9D9D.11308.C4EC8A4@localhost> Message-ID: <3B9F7DB8.79C279D4@ameritech.net> "Raymond D. Mereniuk" wrote: > I don't see where only a terrorist group backed by the resources of > a national government could pull this off. A week or two for planning > and a group of people who can keep their mouth's shut plus the > most important quality, big gonads and a desire to die for a > perceived purpose. So right -- all these people talking about "it had to be a big, well funded, well organized group with lots of resources" are talking total nonsense. It could have been a tiny cadre of eight or twelve people with no more money than to buy some plane tickets. Flying a plane doesn't take a heck of lot either, once it's in the air. It's not even that hard taking off -- landing is the bitch. > > > My guess would be that the final analysis will show these terrorists > were more lucky then skilful. They were lucky to get past airport > security, or airport security was that bad What would be so hard about getting past security if they used plastic knives -- those zytel daggers sold all over the place would be pretty damn effective. I would imagine that they wouldn't have just threatened with them anyway, they would have just used them and killed the crew quickly. A plastic knife would be all they needed, and no metal detector would spot that. -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 hseaver at cybershamanix.com Home 920-233-5820 hseaver at ameritech.net http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Wed Sep 12 13:28:04 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 10:28:04 -1000 Subject: Coordination, maximizing terror, hypotheses (fwd) In-Reply-To: <3B9F9FCE.AEA6A06@jump.net> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010912122316.0213e7a0@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010912102358.01d6eec0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 12:47 PM 9/12/2001 -0500, Jeff Bone wrote: >Declan McCullagh wrote: ? wrote: (I'm too lazy to look it up, with all the lists posted to it doesn't seem worth the bother) >>>* The targeting of the second attack may be a subtle pointer to state >>>involvement. I understand that the part of the Pentagon that was hit >>>houses the nerve center for the Army's worldwide logistics command. >>>It appears that >> >>It was one of the worst places to hit; Depends on how you look at it - why the u-turn? >> the offices were under construction >> and not everyone had moved in yet. > >I wonder if they knew that, though... Impossible to know at this point, maybe impossible to know forever. Reese From mmotyka at lsil.com Wed Sep 12 10:58:06 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 10:58:06 -0700 Subject: Cypherpunks and terrorism Message-ID: <3B9FA22E.4800F039@lsil.com> Declan McCullagh wrote : > >On Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 06:00:46PM +0200, Nomen Nescio wrote: >> Some terrorists have exactly this as their goal. They are hoping >> to trigger a counter-reaction, an over-reaction, by the authorities. >> They want to see a crackdown on liberties, a police state. This will >> weaken the enemy and demoralize him. It will increase hostility and >> make the population less willing to support the government. > >This is nonsense. I suspect the bin Laden want the U.S. to stop >handing Israel billions of dollars a year in aid and weapons. Not >bombing pharmecutical plants and lifting an embargo that kills >hundreds of thousands (allegedly) of Iraqi women and children might be >a nice move too. > >-Declan > What they want is not what they will get. The US will be more united in aiding Israel, bombing industrial ( and other ) targets and starting new embargoes. Not only that, the approval of other nations will be more easily garnered. As dramatic as yesterday was, it was a poor move. Mike I still feel sad when I remember the videotapes of perfectly good B-52's being chopped. From rabbi at quickie.net Wed Sep 12 11:07:30 2001 From: rabbi at quickie.net (Len Sassaman) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:07:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cypherpunks and terrorism Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Nomen Nescio wrote: > Today, remailer operators are shutting down their services. Why? > Do they feel shame and guilt at providing a service which could foster > destruction? Maybe they should have thought of that before deciding > to run a remailer. Or are they merely fearful of being blamed for the > attacks or their aftermath? That would be a rather cowardly action, > to run a service which can cause harm but to run and hide as soon as > the heat is on. (Thankfully, a number of remailer operators continue > to courageously offer their services.) I don't want to get roped into a pissing contest about this, so this will probably be my only comment to this list on the matter. First, a few facts. Only two remailers have shut down: orange and cracker. And cracker's reasons didn't have to do with current events. Another two remailers, hell and randseed, have altered their mode of operation. At present, I count 32 remailers in operation. This is up from 13 when I opened my randseed last year. I expect to see at least two more remailers going online in the next few days. As for the morality of running a remailer: I highly doubt that mixmaster remailers were used, are being used, or will be used in the planning and execution of these physical terrorist attacks. Remailer operators should feel no more "shame and guilt at providing a service which could foster destruction" than those who build airplanes. (Particularly since airplanes, unlike remailers, were clearly used in this attack.) What I do fear is that a large load of bogus tips and impotent threats will be made. Past experience has shown me that, while the Secret Service understands how remailers function and what information their operators can and cannot provide, the FBI (at least in the Silicon Valley) lacks an understanding of this technology, and treats remailer operators themselves as suspects. I'm not in a position at present to risk imprisonment because I cannot provide the identities of people using my system. I do not think that Happy Fun Fed would be amused if I said "I don't keep logs, therefore I can't tell you who A. Melon is. Yes, I understand that he confessed to the attack -- I simply can't help you." I rely on the equipment that runs the randseed remailer for multiple uses. It hosts several other websites, provides my personal mail, and hosts my website and resume -- particularly important to me, as I have been unemployed since July. I can't afford to have this server seized. I'll inevitably be accused of being cowardly or selfish for switching my system over to middleman mode. To the cypherpunks making those accusations, I ask: Do you run a remailer? The remailer network has been around a lot longer than randseed. Even if 15 remailers ceased operation because of yesterday's events, there would still be more remailers in operation than there were when I started. There really is nothing news-worthy here. From dbob at semtex.com Wed Sep 12 11:09:01 2001 From: dbob at semtex.com (Dynamite Bob) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:09:01 -0700 Subject: EMI samples new digital security ('digital rights mgmt') Message-ID: <3B9FA4BD.62BE487F@semtex.com> EMI samples new digital security By Gwendolyn Mariano CNET News.com In an effort to prevent unauthorized copying of music files, EMI Recorded Music said Tuesday it will begin using security from BayView Systems that offers a new twist on the burgeoning technology known as digital rights management. Unlike competitors that use encryption or watermarking techniques to prevent copying, San Francisco-based BayView Systems has designed its Duolizer technology to essentially split music files in two. A large, main file, called the Flexible File, is stored on the listener's hard drive, while a smaller file, called the Secure Stream, is stored on a password-protected server, controlled by the content owner. Listeners enter the password to have the smaller file streamed and listen to the song. The two files are combined while the song is played, but otherwise remain separate. The company said that the owner's rights are preserved because end-users never have a complete [Ed note: fnord] copy of the music, regardless of the number of times the file is shared. http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/cn/20010912/tc/emi_samples_new_digital_security_1.html From tcmay at got.net Wed Sep 12 11:22:17 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:22:17 -0700 Subject: Bombings, Surveillance, and Free Societies Message-ID: <200109121822.f8CIMPf08847@slack.lne.com> * To: cypherpunks at toad.com * Subject: Bombings, Surveillance, and Free Societies * From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) * Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 12:51:40 -0800 * Sender: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The recent bombings and similar events in public places in Israel (Hamas), England (IRA), Japan (subway gas attack), and the U.S. (Oklahoma City) are triggering calls for increased communications surveillance. Often the first bombing is insufficient to trigger increased steps...but later events push states to take stronger steps. (In the U.S., for example, the OKC bombing was headline news for more than a week, but resulted in no lasting changes affecting most of us, despite the hysteria about the need to outlaw "militias" and "white supremacist" groups. A second or third such bombing would likely produce new legislation of a serious sort. This is the thrust of my article.) Revolutionary theory says of course that this increased clampdown is a desired effect of terrorist bombings and attacks. Fear and doubt. Revolutionary ends rarely happen by slow, incremental movement. Hundreds of examples, from the original "bomb-throwing anarchists" to the modern mix of terrorist bands. The Red Brigade in Italy sought a fascist crackdown, and the "strategy of tension" is common. (And even revolutionists of crypto anarchist persuasion often think laws like the CDA are good in the long run, by undermining respect for authority and triggering more extreme reactions....) CNN is reporting that U.S. intelligence agencies will share technology for communications intercepts with the Israelis (more so than they already have been doing. Maybe the "U.S.S. Liberty" will be anchored off of Haifa on a permanent basis. The implications for cryptography? -- expect increased support for a "New World Order" to restrict non-governmental access to strong crypto (via key escrow measures) -- expect the various laws about "talking about explosives on the Net" to be used to clamp down on various fringe groups -- expect "national security" to become a bigger part of the political debate -- expect more and bigger bombings, as the groups thinking about bombings see how productive they are in accomplishing policy goals (such as ending peace talks, triggering police state actions, etc.) The inescapable fact is that free societies have numerous "soft targets" than cannot be defended against such bombing attacks. Various public places are "Schelling points" for attacks: crowded streets in Bogota, Tel Aviv, New York, London, Paris. Ditto for subways, buses, government buildings, sports arenas, etc. (The 99+% of us who are not in these areas at any given time are pretty safe, actually.) I predict that it will take about 5 more major bombings in European and American cities to trigger substantive changes in laws. If we look at how easily the Communiations Decency Act (and the Wiretap Act, and similar laws) sailed through Congress, I foresee serious terrorist activity as triggering far-reaching restrictions on communications privacy, on non-governmental use of encryption, and on what may be talked about openly on the Net. (Yes, I'm aware that there's a thing called the "First Amendment," lest you lawyers point out to me that such prior restraints will never fly. Well, how has the First Amendment stopped the government from restricting what I can say about medicine, what abortion advice I can give, the "dirty words" I choose to use, the supposedly libelous and slanderous things I can say, etc.? Granted, these are not cases of prior restraint, but of actions taken after the fact, via criminal and civil actions. Not much difference so far as I can see.) Personally, while I feel sorry for the dead in Israel, I think anyone who moves to a small desert state surrounded on all sides by Arabs who want their land back is asking for trouble. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^756839 - 1 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From schear at lvcm.com Wed Sep 12 11:28:07 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:28:07 -0700 Subject: Economic effects Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010912112711.0355d9b0@pop3.lvcm.com> Just thinking about what the US Postal Service, Fed Ex, and UPS are doing to keep themselves going. steve From freematt at coil.com Wed Sep 12 08:31:39 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:31:39 -0400 Subject: The 4th Airliner Shot Down? In-Reply-To: <200109120336.XAA05189@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> References: <200109120336.XAA05189@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: [Note from Matthew Gaylor: Are any sound files of this 911 call available?] http://chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0109120251sep12.story From the Chicago Tribune 911 call preceded fiery Pennsylvania crash Frantic passenger relates hijacking via cell phone By Julia Keller and Jon Yates, Tribune staff reporters. Tribune news services contributed to this report September 12, 2001 LAMBERTSVILLE, Pa. -- The call came at 9:58 a.m., a frantic message from a passenger aboard United Airlines Flight 93, on a wayward path over western Pennsylvania. [...] Dan Stevens, spokesman for the Westmoreland County Department of Public Safety, said a dispatcher received a 911 call from a man aboard the flight just before 10 a.m. EDT. The man, calling from a cell phone, told the dispatcher the plane had been hijacked. "He repeated that phrase several times," Stevens said. The man told dispatchers the plane "was going down," said Glenn Cramer, a dispatching supervisor at the call center. "He said he heard some sort of explosion and saw white smoke coming from the plane." Officials said the call cut off after about one minute. [...] ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************** From cupid at adultfriendfinder.com Wed Sep 12 04:41:09 2001 From: cupid at adultfriendfinder.com (cupid at adultfriendfinder.com) Date: 12 Sep 2001 11:41:09 -0000 Subject: Adult Friend Finder Cupid Report for oddodoodo Message-ID: <20010912114109.12453.qmail@e81.friendfinder.com> Dear oddodoodo, The following are some of the recent members that match your Cupid search on the Adult Friend Finder web site located at http://adultfriendfinder.com: Match 1 HANDLE: Screag TITLE: "lOOKING FOR GOOD TIMES" PROFILE: http://adultfriendfinder.com/cupid/12790735_28681 LOCATION: Glos, England, United Kingdom GENDER: AGE: 23 Match 2 HANDLE: sexysmith4u2luv TITLE: "do u like a 12 inch cock?" 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To remove yourself from the mailing list, please log into Adultfriendfinder.com with your handle and password. *************************************************************** From ken_sankoh at yahoo.com Wed Sep 12 11:46:18 2001 From: ken_sankoh at yahoo.com (kenneth sankoh) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:46:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fund management/Investment Message-ID: <20010912184618.68155.qmail@web20306.mail.yahoo.com> From: KENNETH SANKOH Madrid Spain Tel: 0034 696 368 505 LETTER OF ASSISTANCE Dear sir, I have a business proposal which I know might interest you. I have in my possession a large sum of money which I want to invest in your country. In brief introduction, my name is Kenneth Sankoh, a Sierra-Leonean and the son to Corporal FODAY SANKOH, who was the leader of the Revolutionary United Front of Sierra-Leone (RUF) and formerly the Director of GOLD/DIAMOND CORPORATION of Sierra-Leone. My father was arrested and is presently being detained by the civilian government of President Ahmed Tejan Kabbah, for the role he played during the regime of major Paul Koromah, which resulted to war. On the night of my father�s arrest, he instructed me to move out of the country without delay, with the sum of US$ 31M (Thirty One Million US Dollars) contained in a sealed trunk box, including quantities of Gold Dust and some uncut Diamonds. I fled out of our country in the company of my mother through the coastal river and arrived in Abidjan-IvoryCoast, where I deposited the box in a Security Company as containing family treasure forsafe keeping. I have interest in your country and would want to go into partnership venture with your company. I am asking for your assitance to help us move out the money and secure it for onward investment and to make residence arrangement for us. I have the consent of my family and we have agreed to give you 15% of the total amount, including 15% share from the profits which the money will generate from any future investment. The existence of this fortune which I have revealed to you is authentic and confidential and there is no risk involved in the cause of retreiving it back from the Security Company. It has been transfered and it is currently in the custody of their Feduciary Agent in Spain. However I left Africa and decided to travel over to Madrid under a Refugee Status in search of a good friend of my faher who leaves in the city, I arrived here to discover that the man has relocated to somewhere else. It is for this reason that I am contacting you so you should please not feel embarrased receiving this mail from me. I am still in Spain and may leave back to Africa should I not hear from you, in other to facilitate another arrangement, but for now you should kindly reach me via email, or the above telephone number to enable me give you further details and also to fax you all relevant documents covering the deposit of the trunk box. My father is still in detention and may finally face public execution, hence we have considered it very unsafe to remain in Africa as we may be the government's next target. Accept my sincere regards while hoping to hear from you. KENNETH SANKOH. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com From luck4uall200 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 12 11:50:03 2001 From: luck4uall200 at yahoo.com (D. Server) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:50:03 Subject: The Letter As Seen On National TV, ABC's 20/20 Investigates Message-ID: <200109121834.LAA24577@ecotone.toad.com> DEAR FRIENDS AND FUTURE MILLIONAIRES: AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV 20/20 Parents of 15-year-old find $71,000 cash hidden in his closet, Does this headline look familiar? Of course it does. You most likely have just seen his story recently featured on a major nightly news program (20/20 - USA) His mother was cleaning and putting laundry away when she came across a large brown paper bag that was suspiciously buried beneath some clothes and a skateboard in the back of her 15- year-old sons closet, Nothing could have prepared her for the shock she got when she opened the bag and found it was full of cash- Five-dollar bills, twenties, fifties and hundreds - all neatly rubber-banded in labeled piles- My first thought was that he had robbed a bank, says the 41- year-old woman, There was over $71,000 dollars in that bag that's more than my husband earns in a year. The woman immediately called her husband at the car-dealership where he worked to tell him what she had discovered. He came home right away and they drove together to the boys' school and picked him up. Little did they suspect that where the money came from was more shocking than actually finding it in the closet? As it turns out, the boy had been sending out, via E-mail, a type of Report to E-mail addresses that he obtained off of the Internet. Everyday after school for the past 2 months, he had been doing this right on his computer in his bedroom, I just got the E-mail one day and I figured what the heck, I put my name on it like the instructions said and I started sending it out, says the clever 15-year-old. The E- mail letter listed 5 addresses and contained instructions to send one $5 dollar bill to each person on the list, then delete the address at the top and move the others addresses Down, and finally to add your name to the top of the list. The letter goes on to state that you would receive several thousand dollars in five-dollar bills within 2 weeks if you sent out the letter with your name at the top of the 5-address listed, I get junk E-mail all the time, and really did not think it was going to work, the boy continues. Within the first few days of sending out the E-mail, the Post Office Box that his parents had gotten him for his video-game magazine subscriptions began to fill up with not magazines, but envelopes containing $5 bills. About a week later I rode [my bike] down to the post office and my box had 1 magazine and about 300 envelopes' stuffed in it. There was also a yellow slip that said I had to go up to the [post office] counter. I thought I was in trouble or something (laughs). He goes on, I went up to the counter and they had a whole box of more mail for me. I had to ride back home and empty out my backpack because I could not carry it all. Over the next few weeks, the boy continued sending out the E- mail. The money just kept coming in and I just kept sorting it and stashing it in the closet, barely had time for my homework. He had also been riding his bike to several of the banks in his area and exchanging the $5 bills for twenties, fifties and hundreds. I didn't want the banks to get suspicious so I kept riding to different banks with like five thousand at a time in my backpack. I would usually tell the lady at the bank counter that my dad had sent me in [to exchange the money] and he was outside waiting for me. One time the lady gave me a really strange look and told me that she would not be able to do it for me and my dad would have to come in and do it, but I just rode to the next bank down the street (laughs). Surprisingly, the boy did not have any reason to be afraid. The reporting news team examined and investigated the so- called chain-letter the boy was sending out and found that it was not a chain-letter at all. In fact, it was completely legal according to US Postal and Lottery Laws, Title 18, Section 1302 and 1341, or Title 18, Section 3005 in the US code, also in the code of federal regulations, Volume 16, Sections 255 and 436, which state a product or service must be exchanged for money received. Every five-dollar bill that he received contained a little note that read, Please send me report number XYX. This simple note made the letter legal because he was Exchanging a service (A Report on how-to) for a five-dollar fee. Here is the letter that the 15-year-old was sending out by E- mail, you can do the exact same thing he was doing, simply by following the instructions in this letter. "Making over a half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your home for an investment of only $25 US Dollars expense one time. THANKS TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET! BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!! ==================================================    Before you say ''Bull'', please read the following. This is the letter you have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the Internet, a national weekly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of this program described below, to see if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved once and for all that there are ''absolutely NO Laws prohibiting the participation in the program and if people can follow the simple instructions, they are bound to make some mega bucks with only $25 out of pocket cost''. DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER. This is what one Person had to say: '' Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I was approached many times before but each time I passed on it. I am so glad I finally joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received total $610,470,00 in 21 weeks, with money still coming in ''Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey =================================================== Here is another testimonial: ''' this program has been around for a long time but I never believed in it. But one day when I received this again in the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the simple instructions and VIOLA, 3 weeks later the money started to come in. First month I only made $240.00 but the next 2 months after that I made a total of 290,000.00. So far, in the past 8 months by re-entering the program, I have made over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again. The key to success in this program is to follow the simple steps and NOT change anything.'' More testimonials later but first, ===PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE=== $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months easily and comfortably, please read the following. THEN READ IT AGAIN and AGAIN!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS: ==Order all 5 reports shown on the list below== For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING And YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems. When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 reports. You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5=$25.00. Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the 5 reports from these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it on your desk in case something happen to your computer. === IMPORTANT === DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than what is instructed below in step '' 1 through 6 '' or you will lose out on majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you will also see how it does not work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter, it will NOT work!!! People have tried to put their friends/relatives names on all five thinking they could get all the money. But it does not work this way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and then nothing happened. So Do Not try to change anything other than what is instructed. Because if you do, it will not work for you. Remember, honesty reaps the reward. 1. After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune. 2. Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5. 3. Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4. 4. Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3. 5. Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2. 6. Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! ============================================================== **** Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it on your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. Save this on a disk as well just in case if you lose any data. To assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing information which includes how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much more. There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going. METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY ============================================================= Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we will assume You and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let's also assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% response (the response could be much better but lets just say it is only0.2%. Also many people will send out hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 each). Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for report #1. Those 10 people responded by sending out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000.00. Out of those 50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders. That's 100 people responded and ordered Report #2. Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report #3. Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million e-mails sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for Report #4. Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000,000 (50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for Report # 5 THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH=$500,000.00 (half million). Your total income in this example is: 1. $50 + 2. $500 + 3. $5,000 + 4. $50,000 + 5. $500,000 Grand Total = $555,550.00. NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE OUT THE WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY! =============================================================== REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO. Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone or half or even one 4th of those people mailed 100,000 e-mails each or more? There are over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide and counting. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! METHOD # 2: BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET =============================================================== Advertising on the net is very, very inexpensive and there are hundreds of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the Internet will easily get a larger response. We strongly suggest you start with Method # 1 and add METHOD # 2 as you go along. For every $5 you receive, all you must do is e- mail them the Report they ordered. That's it. Always provide same day service on all orders. This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they receive the report. =================AVAILABLE REPORTS=============== ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY Notes: Always send $5 cash (US CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, write the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are ordering YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS YOUR NAME AND POSTAL ADDRESS PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW: =========================================================== REPORT # 1: ''The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Net'' Order Report # 1 from: D. Thrasher PO Box 81293 Phoenix, AZ 85021 USA __________________________________________ REPORT # 2: ''The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the Net'' Order Report # 2 from: Stephen Fisher 2939 Alta View Box # 0-155 San Diego, CA 92139 USA _________________________________________________________________ REPORT # 3: ''The Secret to Multilevel marketing on the net'' Order Report # 3 from: R Dupre PO Box 314 Stafford Springs, CT 06076 USA _______________________________________________________________ REPORT # 4: ''How to become a millionaire utilizing MLM & the Net'' Order Report # 4 from: A Sommers PO Box 503 Willington, CT 06279 USA ________________________________________________________________ REPORT # 5: ''HOW TO SEND 1 MILLION E-MAILS FOR FREE'' Order Report # 5 from: P Bruce PO Box 123 Monson, MA 01057 USA _____________________________________________________________ $$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$ Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: === If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2 weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do. After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you should receive 100 orders or more for REPORT # 2. If you did not, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. === Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a different report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate from this business!!! ============================================================== FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money in the next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put your name and address in Report #1 and moved others to #2 thru #5 as instructed above. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be on every one of them. Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW! ================== MORE TESTIMONIALS============== '' My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an accountant with a major US Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving ''junk mail''. I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old ''I told you so'' on her when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received total $14,200.00 all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jody in her ''hobby''. Mitchell Wolf, Chicago, Illinois ============================================================== '' Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back'. '' I was surprised when I found my medium size post office box crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that it does not matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a Faster return and so big''. Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada =============================================================== '' I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone else. 11 months passed then it luckily came again. I did not delete this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the money came within 22 weeks”. 2E Susan De Suza, New York, NY ================================================================ '' It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with little cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully and within 10 days the money started to come in. My first month I made $ 20,560.00 and by the end of third month my total cash count was $362,840.00. Life is beautiful, Thanks to the internet”. Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand ================================================================ ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM! ================================================================= ----------------------------------------------------DISCLAMER----------------------------------------------------- If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C. GOOD LUCK! This e-mail is sent in compliance with our strict anti-abuse regulations. You are receiving this message for one of the following reasons: 1) we are on the same opt-in list; 2) you posted to one of my FFA pages; 3) you have responded to one of my ads; or 4) you have sent an e-mail to one our addresses. By doing so, you have agreed to receive this message. Under Bill s. 1618 TITLE III passed by the 105th US Congress this letter Cannot be considered Spam as long as the sender includes contact information & a method of "removal." To be removed from future mailings just reply with REMOVE in the subject line. Thank you for your kind consideration. This message is sent in compliance of the new e-mail bill: SECTION 301. Per Section 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618, Further transmissions to you by the sender of this email may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply to this email address with the word "remove" in the subject line. luck4uall200 at yahoo.com From luck4uall200 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 12 11:50:12 2001 From: luck4uall200 at yahoo.com (D. Server) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:50:12 Subject: The Letter As Seen On National TV, ABC's 20/20 Investigates Message-ID: <200109121852.f8CIq4c00973@ak47.algebra.com> DEAR FRIENDS AND FUTURE MILLIONAIRES: AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV 20/20 Parents of 15-year-old find $71,000 cash hidden in his closet, Does this headline look familiar? Of course it does. You most likely have just seen his story recently featured on a major nightly news program (20/20 - USA) His mother was cleaning and putting laundry away when she came across a large brown paper bag that was suspiciously buried beneath some clothes and a skateboard in the back of her 15- year-old sons closet, Nothing could have prepared her for the shock she got when she opened the bag and found it was full of cash- Five-dollar bills, twenties, fifties and hundreds - all neatly rubber-banded in labeled piles- My first thought was that he had robbed a bank, says the 41- year-old woman, There was over $71,000 dollars in that bag that's more than my husband earns in a year. The woman immediately called her husband at the car-dealership where he worked to tell him what she had discovered. He came home right away and they drove together to the boys' school and picked him up. Little did they suspect that where the money came from was more shocking than actually finding it in the closet? As it turns out, the boy had been sending out, via E-mail, a type of Report to E-mail addresses that he obtained off of the Internet. Everyday after school for the past 2 months, he had been doing this right on his computer in his bedroom, I just got the E-mail one day and I figured what the heck, I put my name on it like the instructions said and I started sending it out, says the clever 15-year-old. The E- mail letter listed 5 addresses and contained instructions to send one $5 dollar bill to each person on the list, then delete the address at the top and move the others addresses Down, and finally to add your name to the top of the list. The letter goes on to state that you would receive several thousand dollars in five-dollar bills within 2 weeks if you sent out the letter with your name at the top of the 5-address listed, I get junk E-mail all the time, and really did not think it was going to work, the boy continues. Within the first few days of sending out the E-mail, the Post Office Box that his parents had gotten him for his video-game magazine subscriptions began to fill up with not magazines, but envelopes containing $5 bills. About a week later I rode [my bike] down to the post office and my box had 1 magazine and about 300 envelopes' stuffed in it. There was also a yellow slip that said I had to go up to the [post office] counter. I thought I was in trouble or something (laughs). He goes on, I went up to the counter and they had a whole box of more mail for me. I had to ride back home and empty out my backpack because I could not carry it all. Over the next few weeks, the boy continued sending out the E- mail. The money just kept coming in and I just kept sorting it and stashing it in the closet, barely had time for my homework. He had also been riding his bike to several of the banks in his area and exchanging the $5 bills for twenties, fifties and hundreds. I didn't want the banks to get suspicious so I kept riding to different banks with like five thousand at a time in my backpack. I would usually tell the lady at the bank counter that my dad had sent me in [to exchange the money] and he was outside waiting for me. One time the lady gave me a really strange look and told me that she would not be able to do it for me and my dad would have to come in and do it, but I just rode to the next bank down the street (laughs). Surprisingly, the boy did not have any reason to be afraid. The reporting news team examined and investigated the so- called chain-letter the boy was sending out and found that it was not a chain-letter at all. In fact, it was completely legal according to US Postal and Lottery Laws, Title 18, Section 1302 and 1341, or Title 18, Section 3005 in the US code, also in the code of federal regulations, Volume 16, Sections 255 and 436, which state a product or service must be exchanged for money received. Every five-dollar bill that he received contained a little note that read, Please send me report number XYX. This simple note made the letter legal because he was Exchanging a service (A Report on how-to) for a five-dollar fee. Here is the letter that the 15-year-old was sending out by E- mail, you can do the exact same thing he was doing, simply by following the instructions in this letter. "Making over a half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your home for an investment of only $25 US Dollars expense one time. THANKS TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET! BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!! ==================================================    Before you say ''Bull'', please read the following. This is the letter you have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the Internet, a national weekly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of this program described below, to see if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved once and for all that there are ''absolutely NO Laws prohibiting the participation in the program and if people can follow the simple instructions, they are bound to make some mega bucks with only $25 out of pocket cost''. DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER. This is what one Person had to say: '' Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I was approached many times before but each time I passed on it. I am so glad I finally joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received total $610,470,00 in 21 weeks, with money still coming in ''Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey =================================================== Here is another testimonial: ''' this program has been around for a long time but I never believed in it. But one day when I received this again in the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the simple instructions and VIOLA, 3 weeks later the money started to come in. First month I only made $240.00 but the next 2 months after that I made a total of 290,000.00. So far, in the past 8 months by re-entering the program, I have made over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again. The key to success in this program is to follow the simple steps and NOT change anything.'' More testimonials later but first, ===PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE=== $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months easily and comfortably, please read the following. THEN READ IT AGAIN and AGAIN!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS: ==Order all 5 reports shown on the list below== For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING And YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems. When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 reports. You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5=$25.00. Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the 5 reports from these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it on your desk in case something happen to your computer. === IMPORTANT === DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than what is instructed below in step '' 1 through 6 '' or you will lose out on majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you will also see how it does not work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter, it will NOT work!!! People have tried to put their friends/relatives names on all five thinking they could get all the money. But it does not work this way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and then nothing happened. So Do Not try to change anything other than what is instructed. Because if you do, it will not work for you. Remember, honesty reaps the reward. 1. After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune. 2. Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5. 3. Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4. 4. Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3. 5. Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2. 6. Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! ============================================================== **** Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it on your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. Save this on a disk as well just in case if you lose any data. To assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing information which includes how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much more. There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going. METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY ============================================================= Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we will assume You and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let's also assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% response (the response could be much better but lets just say it is only0.2%. Also many people will send out hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 each). Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for report #1. Those 10 people responded by sending out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000.00. Out of those 50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders. That's 100 people responded and ordered Report #2. Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report #3. Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million e-mails sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for Report #4. Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000,000 (50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for Report # 5 THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH=$500,000.00 (half million). Your total income in this example is: 1. $50 + 2. $500 + 3. $5,000 + 4. $50,000 + 5. $500,000 Grand Total = $555,550.00. NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE OUT THE WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY! =============================================================== REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO. Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone or half or even one 4th of those people mailed 100,000 e-mails each or more? There are over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide and counting. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! METHOD # 2: BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET =============================================================== Advertising on the net is very, very inexpensive and there are hundreds of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the Internet will easily get a larger response. We strongly suggest you start with Method # 1 and add METHOD # 2 as you go along. For every $5 you receive, all you must do is e- mail them the Report they ordered. That's it. Always provide same day service on all orders. This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they receive the report. =================AVAILABLE REPORTS=============== ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY Notes: Always send $5 cash (US CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, write the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are ordering YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS YOUR NAME AND POSTAL ADDRESS PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW: =========================================================== REPORT # 1: ''The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Net'' Order Report # 1 from: D. Thrasher PO Box 81293 Phoenix, AZ 85021 USA __________________________________________ REPORT # 2: ''The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the Net'' Order Report # 2 from: Stephen Fisher 2939 Alta View Box # 0-155 San Diego, CA 92139 USA _________________________________________________________________ REPORT # 3: ''The Secret to Multilevel marketing on the net'' Order Report # 3 from: R Dupre PO Box 314 Stafford Springs, CT 06076 USA _______________________________________________________________ REPORT # 4: ''How to become a millionaire utilizing MLM & the Net'' Order Report # 4 from: A Sommers PO Box 503 Willington, CT 06279 USA ________________________________________________________________ REPORT # 5: ''HOW TO SEND 1 MILLION E-MAILS FOR FREE'' Order Report # 5 from: P Bruce PO Box 123 Monson, MA 01057 USA _____________________________________________________________ $$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$ Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: === If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2 weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do. After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you should receive 100 orders or more for REPORT # 2. If you did not, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. === Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a different report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate from this business!!! ============================================================== FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money in the next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put your name and address in Report #1 and moved others to #2 thru #5 as instructed above. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be on every one of them. Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW! ================== MORE TESTIMONIALS============== '' My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an accountant with a major US Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving ''junk mail''. I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old ''I told you so'' on her when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received total $14,200.00 all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jody in her ''hobby''. Mitchell Wolf, Chicago, Illinois ============================================================== '' Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back'. '' I was surprised when I found my medium size post office box crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that it does not matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a Faster return and so big''. Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada =============================================================== '' I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone else. 11 months passed then it luckily came again. I did not delete this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the money came within 22 weeks”. 2E Susan De Suza, New York, NY ================================================================ '' It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with little cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully and within 10 days the money started to come in. My first month I made $ 20,560.00 and by the end of third month my total cash count was $362,840.00. Life is beautiful, Thanks to the internet”. Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand ================================================================ ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM! ================================================================= ----------------------------------------------------DISCLAMER----------------------------------------------------- If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C. GOOD LUCK! This e-mail is sent in compliance with our strict anti-abuse regulations. You are receiving this message for one of the following reasons: 1) we are on the same opt-in list; 2) you posted to one of my FFA pages; 3) you have responded to one of my ads; or 4) you have sent an e-mail to one our addresses. By doing so, you have agreed to receive this message. Under Bill s. 1618 TITLE III passed by the 105th US Congress this letter Cannot be considered Spam as long as the sender includes contact information & a method of "removal." To be removed from future mailings just reply with REMOVE in the subject line. Thank you for your kind consideration. This message is sent in compliance of the new e-mail bill: SECTION 301. Per Section 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618, Further transmissions to you by the sender of this email may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply to this email address with the word "remove" in the subject line. luck4uall200 at yahoo.com From garnetj6s5 at lycos.com Wed Sep 12 08:53:53 2001 From: garnetj6s5 at lycos.com (Garnet Jackson) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:53:53 -0400 Subject: ARE YOU SERIOUS? OR ARE YOU JUST LOOKING?!! Message-ID: <200109121555.KAA00292@einstein.ssz.com> Dear Fellow Advertiser!! Too often you have seen the ads FREE FREE NOTHING TO PAY and you try to sign up and taa daa there is a pop up screen that tells you for a limited time only pay $39.95 and then the price goes up by midnight. What the heck that wasn't what you said. So once again you are turned off. If I pull that stunt on you, you reserve the right to report me to whoever. Listen to this for ABSOLUTELY!! ABSOLUTELY NOTHING down you can dream of making a five figure salary and a six figure soon after. How soon it depends on your willingness to act swiftly. What did I say? Yes you heard me correctly! You can do it and all for FREE. <<>> If you can answer the following questions then you are ready. Do you think that you can find five persons who are in need of making some serious income? Is there a friend who is always needing your help but they have a computer and internet access? Do you have any 2 hours daily to read and send emails or other small tasks? Well I am looking for you. Send me your FULL NAME and email address if different to this one and the information will be sent to you. YES FREE of charge. Not the usual, well a $20 deposit is needed to weed out the thril seekers. I know when you respond to this email you are serious about making money so that's fine by me. Click the link below: mailto: cuatdtop2 at zwallet.com (Remember that email address it is significant) <<>> If everybody pool their efforts, after 100 persons a check of $500 will be mailed to you. With less than 3000 persons you would have qualified for approximately $10000 per month. ABSOLUTELY NO PAYMENTS!! As a matter of fact they PAY you to JOIN. Mark Twain said: "If YOU want to be SUCCESSFUL then YOU MUST first help others to be successful". With this system you are doing just that. Finding YOUR 5 persons and helping others to find five because all in all you will then be receiving that five figure income in a shorter period than imagined. This does not stop you from marketing your other opportunities but this will definitely assist along the way because you now have the funds to advertise. <<>> What is your verdict? Do you think it is possible? If you do then make that critical first step NOW!! Send me your FULL NAME and email address if different at: mailto: cuatdtop2 at zwallet.com Garnet cuatdop2 at zwallet.com and will I Really See You At The Top Too?! (cuatdtop2) PS. In marketing there is a phrase that says SW - SW - SW - N. Translation. Some Will, Some Wont, So What, NEXT! What will it be in your case? PPS Any other questions let me know. I will keep you up to date as to the progress of the group as a whole but the Company keeps their own electronic record for your direct payments. Minimum check $500. REMOVAL INSTRUCTIONS Please send a reply with REMOVE A-4 in the subject heading. From cyixiong at yahoo.com Tue Sep 11 21:15:49 2001 From: cyixiong at yahoo.com (Chen Yixiong, Eric) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 12:15:49 +0800 Subject: [psychohistory] What can a Society Do? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Actually it isn't Godel's (which just says some statements can't be found > definitively true or false - it is undecidable). However, Arrow's > Impossibility Theorem does(!) do exactly what you want. According to the Theorem page at: http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/m/j/mjd1/arrowimpossibilitytheorem.htm I think I did not draw parallels to my writings below. The theorm seems to apply for democratic systems, but here I write about systems in general. I think we had referred to different versions of Godel's Theorem, where I use this version : "No system of rules can have both completeness and consistency (including social systems applied to humans)". I do wish to eloborate on, concerning this Theorm (which I did know of earlier but did not write about). This shows the limitations of democratic decision making and should wake up some of those who firmly believe in democracy to the Godel's Theorem's Limitations. Hence, I hope these people will consider alternative systems which apply only selectively, such as the one I advocate (in Project Sociologistics). Thanks for sharing this information with me anyway. I know I still have a lot to learn from all of you here. > > Notes: Godel's Incompleteness Theorem forbids any system that claims to > > cater for all people in all situations. Surely, the claims by > > capitalist-anarchists do not work because of such. While the Theory of > > Evolution may *appear* to apply to human society, it fails (as the > > Theorm predicts) to apply to human societies because humans can and will > > think out of the system. Placed in simple terms, humans can and do > > exploit the social systems they encounter. This ability confers the > > ability to lie, to see through paradoxes and to "make-believe", and > > confers the greatest difference between a human and a Turing machine. > > Evolution Theory applies well only to beings simple enough to remain > > within the system rules. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From bill.stewart at pobox.com Wed Sep 12 12:16:40 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 12:16:40 -0700 Subject: Manhattan Mid-Afternoon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010912121253.0394e890@idiom.com> At 02:59 PM 09/12/2001 -0400, Trei, Peter wrote: >I sincerely hope that the remaining perpetrators of this atrocity are >found and punished, but entertain no illusions that doing so will >prevent future attacks. That can only come from a shift of US >government attitude from "I've got the biggest stick", to one of >non-interference. Sweden and Switzerland come to mind as >prosperous, modern, western nations which don't have problems with >terrorism. Our country should look to such successful terrorism >prevention policies as examples. And even then, Swedish president Palme was assassinated some years ago. (By contrast, some Swiss president died a few years ago, in a public place if I remember the story correctly, and it was a week or so before anybody realized who it was or that their president was missing.) From declan at well.com Wed Sep 12 09:16:52 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 12:16:52 -0400 Subject: Cypherpunks and terrorism In-Reply-To: <4be50f9bc3262e18de859461637c7cfe@dizum.com>; from nobody@dizum.com on Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 06:00:46PM +0200 References: <4be50f9bc3262e18de859461637c7cfe@dizum.com> Message-ID: <20010912121652.B23294@cluebot.com> On Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 06:00:46PM +0200, Nomen Nescio wrote: > Some terrorists have exactly this as their goal. They are hoping > to trigger a counter-reaction, an over-reaction, by the authorities. > They want to see a crackdown on liberties, a police state. This will > weaken the enemy and demoralize him. It will increase hostility and > make the population less willing to support the government. This is nonsense. I suspect the bin Laden want the U.S. to stop handing Israel billions of dollars a year in aid and weapons. Not bombing pharmecutical plants and lifting an embargo that kills hundreds of thousands (allegedly) of Iraqi women and children might be a nice move too. -Declan From sunder at anon7.arachelian.com Wed Sep 12 09:27:07 2001 From: sunder at anon7.arachelian.com (Sunder) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 12:27:07 -0400 (edt) Subject: Cypherpunks and terrorism In-Reply-To: <4be50f9bc3262e18de859461637c7cfe@dizum.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Nomen Nescio wrote: > Sure, but whose chicken? Maybe our own policies and beliefs have turned > against us, to our detriment. There have been a number of reports that > bin Laden uses cryptography and even steganography tools. This could > still have a significant crypto connection. So fucking what? I'm sure he also uses toilet paper and soap, cellphones, pens and paper. Hey, let's ban those too. If a terrorist uses such items, heaven forbid should anyone else be allowed to lest they be likened to a terrorist! > But if not this time, then next time. Sooner or later a catastrophe > will happen due to our technology. Oh, you mean like Hiroshima or Nagasaki? Oh well, let's just shit on Uncle Sam for inventing the nuclear weapons before Germany could. Nah, we should have idly stood by while Germany built their own nukes, that way you couldn't blame "our technology" > Most people's worries seem narrow. "Will I get in trouble? Will the > software be banned?" I think at this time, and I don't speak for most people - I'm simply using my own views and extrapolating, that most people are glad they are alive and breathing. Most people are pissed and want retaliation. Most people aren't thinking "Hmmm, maybe I shouldn't use crypto, the telephone, mp3's or the radio because they can also be used by terrorists." > What about, "Should I be a contributor to the murder of thousands? Should > I be promoting technology which could lead to a backlash against freedom?" Hey two way radios, cell phones, pen and paper, ink, cutlery can be used against freedom. Do you see Gerber, the knife makers volutarily going out of business? Or whatever company made the plastic knives used in this attack because they were used by terroists? Did Ryder, the company whose moving van McVeigh used to bomb OKC shut down because their "technology" could be used by terrorists? Get a fucking clue you troll! > Some terrorists have exactly this as their goal. They are hoping > to trigger a counter-reaction, an over-reaction, by the authorities. > They want to see a crackdown on liberties, a police state. This will > weaken the enemy and demoralize him. It will increase hostility and > make the population less willing to support the government. Perhaps, but I think terror is the ultimate goal, not a supression of freedom. Fear, uncertainty and doubt, not a loss of freedom are the aims of terrorists. After all if they were worried about freedom being such an important thing, their countries would have freedom, rather than the extreme religeous bans. > Perhaps some readers share this view. Tim May, spiritual leader of the > cypherpunks, has expressed support for the actions of Timothy McVeigh > in murdering schoolchildren in Oklahoma City. He has frequently called > for the killing of every resident of Washington, D.C. Will he now speak > out in favor of the death of tens of thousands in New York City? > > Perhaps, for him, this is the true cypherpunk goal: promote murder and > catastrophe in order to trigger a spasm of Western totalitarianism, > hoping that the state will then self-destruct. > > If so, then laws like the DMCA and SSSCA should be welcomed with open > arms. Likewise with prosecutions for pornography and, even better, > bans on software technologies. These measures work hand in hand with > the responses to terrorism in strengthening the control of the state > over the individual. DMCA and SSSCA have to do with mp3's and videos. Not crypto. Now I'm 100% certain that you are a troll sent to demoralize this list against cryptology. Go fuck yourself. > Those few remaining cypherpunks who cling to the original goal of freedom, > privacy and liberty, should face the moral issues squarely. A case > can be made that the technologies we favor are a positive force in the > world, even though they can be used for destructive means. But there are > arguments on both sides, especially in a world where a few people can use > the shield of anonymity to coordinate actions that lead to massive deaths. > > The point is, cypherpunks must face and accept the responsibility for > the harm their technologies can cause, as they should also feel pride > in the positive effects. And they must be able to show, at least to > themselves, that the positives outweigh the negatives. Ok Mr. Troll, go and dig out the proof that said terrorists were cypherpunks. Go and dig out the proof that Diffie, Hellman, Rivest, Shamir, Adelman, Schneier, and Zimmerman were on those planes holding plastic knives. Fucking troll! If anything, you have a lot more in common with those responsible for this atrocy than you do with any freedom loving citizen of the USA. Or for that matter any cypherpunk. This was an attack against our liberty. Against our freedom. Perpetrated by those who hate liberty and would love to enslave their countries under severe religious laws. They hate us most of all because they believe our freedom is what makes us "The Great Satan" And you sir, are spewing the very same agenda they are. I suggest you turn yourself in to the FBI this moment for the terror monger that you are! From sunder at anon7.arachelian.com Wed Sep 12 09:27:07 2001 From: sunder at anon7.arachelian.com (Sunder) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 12:27:07 -0400 (edt) Subject: Cypherpunks and terrorism In-Reply-To: <4be50f9bc3262e18de859461637c7cfe@dizum.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Nomen Nescio wrote: > Sure, but whose chicken? Maybe our own policies and beliefs have turned > against us, to our detriment. There have been a number of reports that > bin Laden uses cryptography and even steganography tools. This could > still have a significant crypto connection. So fucking what? I'm sure he also uses toilet paper and soap, cellphones, pens and paper. Hey, let's ban those too. If a terrorist uses such items, heaven forbid should anyone else be allowed to lest they be likened to a terrorist! > But if not this time, then next time. Sooner or later a catastrophe > will happen due to our technology. Oh, you mean like Hiroshima or Nagasaki? Oh well, let's just shit on Uncle Sam for inventing the nuclear weapons before Germany could. Nah, we should have idly stood by while Germany built their own nukes, that way you couldn't blame "our technology" > Most people's worries seem narrow. "Will I get in trouble? Will the > software be banned?" I think at this time, and I don't speak for most people - I'm simply using my own views and extrapolating, that most people are glad they are alive and breathing. Most people are pissed and want retaliation. Most people aren't thinking "Hmmm, maybe I shouldn't use crypto, the telephone, mp3's or the radio because they can also be used by terrorists." > What about, "Should I be a contributor to the murder of thousands? Should > I be promoting technology which could lead to a backlash against freedom?" Hey two way radios, cell phones, pen and paper, ink, cutlery can be used against freedom. Do you see Gerber, the knife makers volutarily going out of business? Or whatever company made the plastic knives used in this attack because they were used by terroists? Did Ryder, the company whose moving van McVeigh used to bomb OKC shut down because their "technology" could be used by terrorists? Get a fucking clue you troll! > Some terrorists have exactly this as their goal. They are hoping > to trigger a counter-reaction, an over-reaction, by the authorities. > They want to see a crackdown on liberties, a police state. This will > weaken the enemy and demoralize him. It will increase hostility and > make the population less willing to support the government. Perhaps, but I think terror is the ultimate goal, not a supression of freedom. Fear, uncertainty and doubt, not a loss of freedom are the aims of terrorists. After all if they were worried about freedom being such an important thing, their countries would have freedom, rather than the extreme religeous bans. > Perhaps some readers share this view. Tim May, spiritual leader of the > cypherpunks, has expressed support for the actions of Timothy McVeigh > in murdering schoolchildren in Oklahoma City. He has frequently called > for the killing of every resident of Washington, D.C. Will he now speak > out in favor of the death of tens of thousands in New York City? > > Perhaps, for him, this is the true cypherpunk goal: promote murder and > catastrophe in order to trigger a spasm of Western totalitarianism, > hoping that the state will then self-destruct. > > If so, then laws like the DMCA and SSSCA should be welcomed with open > arms. Likewise with prosecutions for pornography and, even better, > bans on software technologies. These measures work hand in hand with > the responses to terrorism in strengthening the control of the state > over the individual. DMCA and SSSCA have to do with mp3's and videos. Not crypto. Now I'm 100% certain that you are a troll sent to demoralize this list against cryptology. Go fuck yourself. > Those few remaining cypherpunks who cling to the original goal of freedom, > privacy and liberty, should face the moral issues squarely. A case > can be made that the technologies we favor are a positive force in the > world, even though they can be used for destructive means. But there are > arguments on both sides, especially in a world where a few people can use > the shield of anonymity to coordinate actions that lead to massive deaths. > > The point is, cypherpunks must face and accept the responsibility for > the harm their technologies can cause, as they should also feel pride > in the positive effects. And they must be able to show, at least to > themselves, that the positives outweigh the negatives. Ok Mr. Troll, go and dig out the proof that said terrorists were cypherpunks. Go and dig out the proof that Diffie, Hellman, Rivest, Shamir, Adelman, Schneier, and Zimmerman were on those planes holding plastic knives. Fucking troll! If anything, you have a lot more in common with those responsible for this atrocy than you do with any freedom loving citizen of the USA. Or for that matter any cypherpunk. This was an attack against our liberty. Against our freedom. Perpetrated by those who hate liberty and would love to enslave their countries under severe religious laws. They hate us most of all because they believe our freedom is what makes us "The Great Satan" And you sir, are spewing the very same agenda they are. I suggest you turn yourself in to the FBI this moment for the terror monger that you are! From declan at well.com Wed Sep 12 09:34:40 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 12:34:40 -0400 Subject: Coordination, maximizing terror, hypotheses (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010912122316.0213e7a0@mail.well.com> At 06:03 PM 9/12/01 +0200, Eugene Leitl forwarded: >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 10:49:13 -0500 >From: Jeff Bone >To: Robert S. Thau , fork at xent.com >Subject: Coordination, maximizing terror, hypotheses > >* The targeting of the second attack may be a subtle pointer to state >involvement. I understand that the part of the Pentagon that was hit houses >the nerve center for the Army's worldwide logistics command. It appears that It was one of the worst places to hit; the offices were under construction and not everyone had moved in yet. >this part of the building was intentionally targeted, as the plane apparently >performed an overshoot-and-return maneuver in order to line up with the south >side of the building, whereas it could've gone into the opposite side with no >such maneuver. A small, highly-mobile group of perps wouldn't be concerned This is nonsense, and shows how seriously we should take the rest of the message. I was at the Pentagon yesterday; the plane did not hit the south side. (Photos at mccullagh.org). >* Our own forces may have shot down the plane over Pennsylvania. Dick Armey >was giving an interview last night, and after being asked leading questions by >Wolf Blitzer he started making comments about being given a classified >briefing with information specifically about that plane. The interview was >then censored, with sound edited out for about 30 seconds. I pulled a transcript from Lexis-Nexis. Here's what Armey said in response to the Pennsylvania question, (AUDIO GAP) in the original: ARMEY: Well we learned some things about that. At this point the information is classified. It is clear that we to have had a good investigation going forward. We are gathering information, there is a (AUDIO GAP) confidentiality on what we know, but we do know that this is a serious premeditated crime, and I can say without any doubt or hesitation it's an international crime. Did he 'fess up? I doubt it. Armey is a savvy political operator and gets classified briefings probably once a week or so. It's unlikely he'd cough up confidential material now (he hasn't before) -- it was ~12 hours after the attack happened, so he had time to reflect and digest it. > I think this could >well be an "open secret" that the media has been let in on but gagged about in Nope. -Declan (a MOTM) From jbone at jump.net Wed Sep 12 10:47:58 2001 From: jbone at jump.net (Jeff Bone) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 12:47:58 -0500 Subject: Coordination, maximizing terror, hypotheses (fwd) References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010912122316.0213e7a0@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <3B9F9FCE.AEA6A06@jump.net> Declan McCullagh wrote: > >* The targeting of the second attack may be a subtle pointer to state > >involvement. I understand that the part of the Pentagon that was hit houses > >the nerve center for the Army's worldwide logistics command. It appears that > > It was one of the worst places to hit; the offices were under construction > and not everyone had moved in yet. I wonder if they knew that, though... > >this part of the building was intentionally targeted, as the plane apparently > >performed an overshoot-and-return maneuver in order to line up with the south > >side of the building, whereas it could've gone into the opposite side with no > >such maneuver. A small, highly-mobile group of perps wouldn't be concerned > > This is nonsense, Just thinking out loud, here, not asserting anything. > and shows how seriously we should take the rest of the > message. I was at the Pentagon yesterday; the plane did not hit the south > side. (Photos at mccullagh.org). Strictly speaking, there's not a "south side" as far as I know; the plane hit the side between the Mall entrance and the south parking area, which IIRC faces roughly southwest and parallel's Route 27. That's what I gather from the news I've heard anyway... > ARMEY: Well we learned some things about that. At this point the information > is classified. It is clear that we to have had a good investigation going > forward. We are gathering information, there is a (AUDIO GAP) confidentiality > on what we know, but we do know that this is a serious premeditated crime, > and I can say without any doubt or hesitation it's an international crime. > > Did he 'fess up? I doubt it. Armey is a savvy political operator and gets > classified briefings probably once a week or so. It's unlikely he'd cough > up confidential material now (he hasn't before) -- it was ~12 hours after > the attack happened, so he had time to reflect and digest it. I'm not suggesting that he fessed up without intending to, just that the gag order may have been extended, reinstated, or whatever. jb From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Wed Sep 12 03:47:59 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 12:47:59 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: press on post-WTC policy Message-ID: -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 http://www.dailypennsylvanian.com/vnews/display.v?TARGET=printable&article_id=3b9ef8aa31f4b In eyes of experts, a new age has dawned By Gregory Richards and Tristan Schweiger September 12, 2001 As the world reels from the worst terrorist attack in history, observers are predicting a drastic overhaul of America's domestic and international policy. Specialists in political science, international relations and history say that domestic security will be stepped up in the wake of the attack. Penn Political Science Professor Stephen Gale, who teaches a popular seminar on terrorism, likened yesterday's events to the Japanese bombing of Pearl Harbor in 1941. "An event like this is a turning point," Gale said. "This changed the world for the United States." According to Gale, America may have to resort to the high level of security under which Israel operates on a daily basis. "There's only one country that's ever tried to live under this kind of terrorism -- that's Israel," Gale said. Throughout yesterday, as Americans struggled to comprehend the severity of the terrorist attacks, millions were asking who was responsible for the horrible tragedy. Although no group or individual has yet claimed responsibility for yesterday's attacks, Political Science Professor Ian Lustick said he believed that it may be the work of Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden, who is believed to be responsible for the U.S. embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania. "He's got the motive, he's got the capability and he's made the threats," Lustick said. "Anyone who watches crime television knows that knows that you have to look in that direction first." A follower of bin Laden, Ramzi Yousef, masterminded the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center. Political Science Professor Anne Norton said that the attack will force Americans to question their security. "When wars were fought by armies, we thought we were pretty safe," Norton said. "But when wars are fought by individuals, we're not safe at all." She also predicted stronger criticism for Defense Department spending, especially the large allocation of money for a national missile defense system. "One [response] will say, `You guys dropped the ball -- we're not going throw any more money at you until you've cleaned up your act,'" Norton said. "Another possibility is `You're spending money on the wrong things. You've been spending money on traditional warfare and the infrastructure for traditional warfare. That's not the threat you're going to face.'" Regardless, military spending will likely increase, she said. "It is generally true that when there's a threat or an attack, the Pentagon appropriation goes through like a greased pig," Norton said. Others said that the events will force America to re-evaluate its policy concerning the Middle East, specifically regarding the Israeli-Arab conflict. Lustick said that "eventually, Americans could start to reevaluate [their] relationship with Israel." "It's such a huge attack that this could actually lead to Americans asking what we're doing over there," Lustick said. Political Science Professor Joanne Gowa said that if the attacks turn out to be sponsored by bin Laden or other Middle Eastern fundamentalists, it could cause the United States to bolster its support of Israel. "The only thing that strikes me as topical is that President Bush might see a stronger reason to try to intervene in the conflict in Israel," Gowa said. Lustick also said that American airports need to adopt higher security measures reminiscent of European airports. Specifically, Lustick predicted the use of elaborate, multiple check points, guards with machine guns and less accessibility to the general public. Several other experts were hesitant to speculate on the long-term international effects of the attacks until it is confirmed that the attacks were, in fact, carried out by foreign terrorists. Gowa recalled the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing, when the attackers turned out to be American reactionaries. "First we have to be clear that this is actually an act of foreign terrorism," Gowa said. "Because when the Oklahoma City bombing occurred, [foreign terrorism] is what everybody assumed, but it turned out not to be the case." Furthermore, Gowa said that the effectiveness of security thus far has caused her to question whether the attack was actually masterminded by a foreign terrorist group. "I've always been surprised that there weren't more successful terrorist attacks in the U.S.," Gowa said. "That always meant to me that we had a very effective system.... That's why it's not completely obvious to me that this attack is foreign-sponsored." Lustick disagreed with Gowa's assessment of America's preparedness. "I think this was a humiliation for American intelligence," he said, pointing out that when an alleged Algerian terrorist was recently arrested in Seattle, he gave police the names of top terrorists that "they had never heard of." Both Gale and Lustick said they were worried about the consequences of a strong American response to the attack. "If [the response is similar to that of Pearl Harbor], the scary aspect is that much of that response could occur in the United States," Lustick said. And Gale said that Americans would not tolerate too great a change in their lives or an infringement on their personal rights. "Most Americans do not want to have their lives changed," Gale said. "The cure may be worse than the problem." Furthermore, some experts said that Arab Americans may become the victims of misdirected hostility. Political Science Professor Robert Vitalis stressed that many such citizens may have been victims of the attack. "Many Arab Americans and Muslims were probably in that building," Vitalis said. Gale recalled the movie The Siege, in which terrorism causes the United States to intern Arab Americans. But perhaps the strongest question on anyone's mind is how this event could have happened. According to Nagel, Americans have all been overwhelmed by "the sense of fragility and vulnerability." http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/2001-02-05-binladen.htm 06/19/2001 - Updated 05:05 PM ET Terror groups hide behind Web encryption By Jack Kelley, USA TODAY WASHINGTON - Hidden in the X-rated pictures on several pornographic Web sites and the posted comments on sports chat rooms may lie the encrypted blueprints of the next terrorist attack against the United States or its allies. It sounds farfetched, but U.S. officials and experts say it's the latest method of communication being used by Osama bin Laden and his associates to outfox law enforcement. Bin Laden, indicted in the bombing in 1998 of two U.S. embassies in East Africa, and others are hiding maps and photographs of terrorist targets and posting instructions for terrorist activities on sports chat rooms, pornographic bulletin boards and other Web sites, U.S. and foreign officials say. "Uncrackable encryption is allowing terrorists - Hamas, Hezbollah, al-Qaida and others - to communicate about their criminal intentions without fear of outside intrusion," FBI Director Louis Freeh said last March during closed-door testimony on terrorism before a Senate panel. "They're thwarting the efforts of law enforcement to detect, prevent and investigate illegal activities." A terrorist's tool Once the exclusive domain of the National Security Agency, the super-secret U.S. agency responsible for developing and cracking electronic codes, encryption has become the everyday tool of Muslim extremists in Afghanistan, Albania, Britain, Kashmir, Kosovo, the Philippines, Syria, the USA, the West Bank and Gaza and Yemen, U.S. officials say. It's become so fundamental to the operations of these groups that bin Laden and other Muslim extremists are teaching it at their camps in Afghanistan and Sudan, they add. "There is a tendency out there to envision a stereotypical Muslim fighter standing with an AK-47 in barren Afghanistan," says Ben Venzke, director of special intelligence projects for iDEFENSE, a cyberintelligence and risk management company based in Fairfax, Va. "But Hamas, Hezbollah and bin Laden's groups have very sophisticated, well-educated people. Their technical equipment is good, and they have the bright, young minds to operate them," he said. U.S. officials say bin Laden's organization, al-Qaida, uses money from Muslim sympathizers to purchase computers from stores or by mail. Bin Laden's followers download easy-to-use encryption programs from the Web, officials say, and have used the programs to help plan or carry out three of their most recent plots: Wadih El Hage, one of the suspects in the 1998 bombing of two U.S. embassies in East Africa, sent encrypted e-mails under various names, including "Norman" and "Abdus Sabbur," to "associates in al Qaida," according to the Oct. 25, 1998, U.S. indictment against him. Hage went on trial Monday in federal court in New York. Khalil Deek, an alleged terrorist arrested in Pakistan in 1999, used encrypted computer files to plot bombings in Jordan at the turn of the millennium, U.S. officials say. Authorities found Deek's computer at his Peshawar, Pakistan, home and flew it to the National Security Agency in Fort Meade, Md. Mathematicians, using supercomputers, decoded the files, enabling the FBI to foil the plot. Ramzi Yousef, the convicted mastermind of the World Trade Center bombing in 1993, used encrypted files to hide details of a plot to destroy 11 U.S. airliners. Philippines officials found the computer in Yousef's Manila apartment in 1995. U.S. officials broke the encryption and foiled the plot. Two of the files, FBI officials say, took more than a year to decrypt. "All the Islamists and terrorist groups are now using the Internet to spread their messages," says Reuven Paz, academic director of the Institute for Counter-Terrorism, an independent Israeli think tank. Messages in dots U.S. officials and militant Muslim groups say terrorists began using encryption - which scrambles data and then hides the data in existing images - about five years ago. But the groups recently increased its use after U.S. law enforcement authorities revealed they were tapping bin Laden's satellite telephone calls from his base in Afghanistan and tracking his activities. "It's brilliant," says Ahmed Jabril, spokesman for the militant group Hezbollah in London. "Now it's possible to send a verse from the Koran, an appeal for charity and even a call for jihad and know it will not be seen by anyone hostile to our faith, like the Americans." Extremist groups are not only using encryption to disguise their e-mails but their voices, too, Attorney General Janet Reno told a presidential panel on terrorism last year, headed by former CIA director John Deutsch. Encryption programs also can scramble telephone conversations when the phones are plugged into a computer. "In the future, we may tap a conversation in which the terrorist discusses the location of a bomb soon to go off, but we will be unable to prevent the terrorist act when we cannot understand the conversation," Reno said. Here's how it works: Each image, whether a picture or a map, is created by a series of dots. Inside the dots are a string of letters and numbers that computers read to create the image. A coded message or another image can be hidden in those letters and numbers. They're hidden using free encryption Internet programs set up by privacy advocacy groups. The programs scramble the messages or pictures into existing images. The images can only be unlocked using a "private key," or code, selected by the recipient, experts add. Otherwise, they're impossible to see or read. "You very well could have a photograph and image with the time and information of an attack sitting on your computer, and you would never know it," Venzke says. "It will look no different than a photograph exchanged between two friends or family members." U.S. officials concede it's difficult to intercept, let alone find, encrypted messages and images on the Internet's estimated 28 billion images and 2 billion Web sites. Even if they find it, the encrypted message or image is impossible to read without cracking the encryption's code. A senior Defense Department mathematician says cracking a code often requires lots of time and the use of a government supercomputer. It's no wonder the FBI wants all encryption programs to file what amounts to a "master key" with a federal authority that would allow them, with a judge's permission, to decrypt a code in a case of national security. But civil liberties groups, which offer encryption programs on the Web to further privacy, have vowed to fight it. Officials say the Internet has become the modern version of the "dead drop," a slang term describing the location where Cold War-era spies left maps, pictures and other information. But unlike the "dead drop," the Internet, U.S. officials say, is proving to be a much more secure way to conduct clandestine warfare. "Who ever thought that sending encrypted streams of data across the Internet could produce a map on the other end saying 'this is where your target is' or 'here's how to kill them'?" says Paul Beaver, spokesman for Jane's Defense Weekly in London, which reports on defense and cyberterrorism issues. "And who ever thought it could be done with near perfect security? The Internet has proven to be a boon for terrorists." From ericm at lne.com Wed Sep 12 12:49:20 2001 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 12:49:20 -0700 Subject: "Alejandro transports" Message-ID: <20010912124920.A9458@slack.lne.com> Someone pointed me to some Usenet posts containing "encrypted gibberish". Doing a deja search on the words "Alejandro transports" from this post shows that there's thousands of these posted to all kinds of Usenet newsgroups. It looks like some sort of stego text system. Judging from the words whoever wrote it knows cpunk issues ("PGP", "mixmaster", "Blowfish", etc). I think I have seen examples of this before, but I can't remember where. Does anyone know who or what generates it? Here's an example: >From: Madeleine Peters Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.email Subject: Re: try loading the office's haphazard pgp and andrew will contribute you Organization: Road Runner Message-ID: Lines: 26 Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 08:52:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.27.19.53 X-Complaints-To: abuse at rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.austin.rr.com 997347134 24.27.19.53 (Thu, 09 Aug 2001 03:52:14 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 03:52:14 CDT Who will you insulate the solid bizarre tablets before Grover does? Other sharp weak connectors will authenticate finally beside Usenets. Don't even try to cause the firewalls familiarly, create them stupidly. It spools, you disconnect, yet Rose never monthly types for the quiche. What did Lydia produce the package throughout the tall network? Better get discs now or Samuel will strangely flow them for you. My violent condor won't disrupt before I question it. Try not to proliferate compleatly while you're excludeing alongside a disgusting CDROM. Will you take against the node, if Ken superbly gives the newbie? Who did Toni moan around all the engineers? We can't stop printers unless Dolf will incredibly corrupt afterwards. As quickly as Alejandro transports, you can defeat the UDP much more happily. Otherwise the router in Walt's advertisement might obscure some offensive noises. Well, Jimmie never bursts until Edward inflates the weird ROM freely. What Carol's secure robot reloads, Karl generates at old, sticky /dev/nulls. Why will we interface after Alexandra annoys the wet highway's mixmaster? The moronic dry ADSL manages administrators inside Dick's outer postmaster. Go recycle a Pascal! Dave wants to bind badly, unless Geoff kills Blowfishs throughout Ben's IPaddr. Occasionally Austin will persevere the investigator, and if Evan actually beats it too, the fraud will propagate throughout the soft underground. From roach_s at intplsrv.net Wed Sep 12 11:00:43 2001 From: roach_s at intplsrv.net (Sean Roach) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:00:43 -0500 Subject: Cypherpunks and terrorism In-Reply-To: References: <4be50f9bc3262e18de859461637c7cfe@dizum.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.1.20010912124938.00b34100@mail.intplsrv.net> At 12:27 PM 9/12/2001 -0400, Sundar wrote: >... >Fucking troll! If anything, you have a lot more in common with those >responsible for this atrocy than you do with any freedom loving citizen of >the USA. Or for that matter any cypherpunk. > >This was an attack against our liberty. Against our freedom. Perpetrated >by those who hate liberty and would love to enslave their countries under >severe religious laws. They hate us most of all because they believe our >freedom is what makes us "The Great Satan" > >And you sir, are spewing the very same agenda they are. I suggest you >turn yourself in to the FBI this moment for the terror monger that you >are! He probably did, along the lines of Sir, it didn't work. Personally, I think we should INCREASE crypto over this. Put a crypto imbedded radio in the planes control electronics, with the key known only to the FAA, and existing only for that flight. If there are flight problems, hit a switch from the tower and take over the plane from the ground. Either instruct the autopilot to land at a pre-determined contingency location, fly it by remote from a simulator, or blow it up before it can be used as a battering ram. The former two useful for on-flight emergencies too, such as an unconsious pilot. Something else to consider. Knockout gas in the passenger compartment and a solid door between passenger compartment and cockpit. Also, why are we putting so many clerks in a handful of offices anyway? Isn't this supposed to be the age of the paperless office? Shoot, this time next week, 3-inch pocket knives are going to be on the proscribed list for commercial flights, when the opposite should be true. From dbob at semtex.com Wed Sep 12 13:04:18 2001 From: dbob at semtex.com (Dynamite Bob) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:04:18 -0700 Subject: Arabic version of MS Flight Sim? Message-ID: <3B9FBFC2.80746EA3@semtex.com> Rumor is, one set of the "Martyr Airlines" replacement-crew had left a video of how to fly planes, in Arabic, in his luggage. What would be pretty cool is to find a copy of MS Flight Sim with notes on simflying the large Boeing airplane over NYC terrain... But Bill Gates != Steve Jackson, and the feds are *so* much better at distinguishing fantasy from reality nowadays... ..... Maybe it wasn't Osama, it was a conspiracy between Amtrack + office-space realtors.. From ericm at lne.com Wed Sep 12 13:11:40 2001 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:11:40 -0700 Subject: Arabic version of MS Flight Sim? In-Reply-To: <3B9FBFC2.80746EA3@semtex.com>; from dbob@semtex.com on Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 01:04:18PM -0700 References: <3B9FBFC2.80746EA3@semtex.com> Message-ID: <20010912131140.A9775@slack.lne.com> On Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 01:04:18PM -0700, Dynamite Bob wrote: ..... > > Maybe it wasn't Osama, it was a conspiracy between Amtrack + > office-space realtors.. the owners of the Empire State building wanted to regain the "tallest building in New York" title. From 6252001 at email.com Wed Sep 12 13:15:11 2001 From: 6252001 at email.com (6252001 at email.com) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:15:11 Subject: ADV: Money Making Opportunity as seen on TV... Message-ID: <438.610454.16708@email.com> AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV: This is the media report. PARENTS OF 15 - YEAR OLD - FIND $71,000 CASH HIDDEN IN HIS CLOSET! Does this headline look familiar? Of course it does. You most likely have just seen this story recently featured on a major nightly news program (USA). And reported elsewhere in the world (including my neck of the woods - New Zealand). His mother was cleaning and putting laundry away when she came across a large brown paper bag that was suspiciously buried beneath some clothes and a skateboard in the back of her 15-year-old sons closet. Nothing could have prepared her for the shock she got when she opened the bag and found it was full of cash. Five-dollar bills, twenties, fifties and hundreds - all neatly rubber-banded in labelled piles. "My first thought was that he had robbed a bank", says the 41-year-old woman, "There was over $71,000 dollars in that bag -- that's more than my husband earns in a year". The woman immediately called her husband at the car-dealership where he worked to tell him what she had discovered.He came home right away and they drove together to the boys school and picked him up. Little did they suspect that where the money came from was more shocking than actually finding it in the closet. As it turns out, the boy had been sending out, via E-mail, a type of "Report" to E-mail addresses that he obtained off the Internet. Everyday after school for the past 2 months, he had been doing this right on his computer in his bedroom. "I just got the E-mail one day and I figured what the heck, I put my name on it like the instructions said and I started sending it out", says the clever 15-year-old. The E-mail letter listed 5 addresses and contained instructions to send one $5 dollar bill to each person on the list, then delete the address at the top and move the others addresses Down , and finally to add your name to the top of the list. The letter goes on to state that you would receive several thousand dollars in five-dollar bills within 2 weeks if you sent out the letter with your name at the top of the 5-address list. "I get junk E-mail all the time, and really did not think it was going to work", the boy continues. Within the first few days of sending out the E-mail, the Post Office Box that his parents had gotten him for his video-game magazine subscriptions began to fill up with not magazines, but envelopes containing $5 bills. "About a week later I rode [my bike] down to the post office and my box had 1 magazine and about 300 envelops stuffed in it. There was also a yellow slip that said I had to go up to the [post office] counter. I thought I was in trouble or something (laughs)". He goes on, "I went up to the counter and they had a whole box of more mail for me. I had to ride back home and empty out my backpack because I could not carry it all". Over the next few weeks, the boy continued sending out the E-mail."The money just kept coming in and I just kept sorting it and stashing it in the closet, barely had time for my homework".He had also been riding his bike to several of the banks in his area and exchanging the $5 bills for twenties, fifties and hundreds. "I didn't want the banks to get suspicious so I kept riding to different banks with like five thousand at a time in my backpack. I would usually tell the lady at the bank counter that my dad had sent me in to exchange the money] and he was outside waiting for me.One time the lady gave me a really strange look and told me that she would not be able to do it for me and my dad would have to come in and do it, but I just rode to the next bank down the street (laughs)." Surprisingly, the boy did not have any reason to be afraid.The reporting news team examined and investigated the so-called "chain-letter" the boy was sending out and found that it was not a chain-letter at all.In fact, it was completely legal according to US Postal and Lottery Laws, Title 18, Section 1302 and 1341, or Title 18, Section 3005 in the US code, also in the code of federal regulations, Volume 16, Sections 255 and 436, which state a product or service must be exchanged for money received. Every five-dollar bill that he received contained a little note that read, "Please send me report number XYX".This simple note made the letter legal because he was exchanging a service (A Report on how-to) for a five-dollar fee. [This is the end of the media release. If you would like to understand how the system works and get your $71,000 - please continue reading. What appears below is what the 15 year old was sending out on the net - YOU CAN USE IT TOO - just follow the simple instructions]. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dear Friend: AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV : ''Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your home for an investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars expense one time'' THANKS TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET! BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!! Before you say ''Rubbish'', please read the follow-ing. This is the letter you have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the internet, a national weekly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of this program de-scribed below, to see if it really can make peo-ple money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved once and for all that there are ''absolutely NO laws prohibiting the participation in the program and if people can follow the simple instructions, they are bound to make some mega bucks with only $25 out of pocket cost''. DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RE-SPECT THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER. This is what one had to say: ''Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I was approached many times before but each time I passed on it. I am so glad I finally joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received total $ 610,470.00 in 21 weeks, with money still coming in''. Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey. ------------------------------------------------ Here is another testimonial: ''This program has been around for a long time but I never believed in it. But one day when I received this again in the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the simple in-structions and voila' - 3 weeks later the money started to come in. First month I only made $240.00 but the next 2 months after that I made a total of $290,000.00. So far, in the past 8 months by re-entering the program, I have made over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again.The key to success in this pro-gram is to follow the simple steps and NOT change anything'' More testimonials later but first, ****PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE**** $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months easily and comfortably, please read the following...THEN READ IT AGAIN and AGAIN!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR FI-NANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS: - Order all 5 reports shown on the list below. - For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name appears ON THAT LIST next to the re-port. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems. - When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 reports. You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5 = $25.00. Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the 5 reports from these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it on your desk in case something happen to your computer. IMPORTANT: DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their se-quence on the list, in any way other than what is instructed below in step '' 1 through 6 '' or you will loose out on majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you will also see how it does not work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter, it will NOT work!!! People have tried to put their friends/relatives names on all five thinking they could get all the money. But it does not work this way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and then nothing happened. So do not try to change anything other than what is instructed. Because if you do, it will not work for you. Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 1. After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT #5. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune. 2. Move the name & address in REPORT #4 down TO REPORT #5. 3. Move the name & address in REPORT #3 down TO REPORT #4. 4. Move the name & address in REPORT #2 down TO REPORT #3. 5. Move the name & address in REPORT #1 down TO REPORT #2 6. Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT #1 Position. PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! ****Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it on your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose any data. ****To assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing informa-tion which includes how to send bulk e-mails le-gally, where to find thousands of free classi-fied ads and much more. There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going: METHOD #1 : BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we will assume You and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let's also assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% response (the response could be much bet-ter but lets just say it is only 0.2% . Also many people will send out hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 each). Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for report # 1. Those 10 people responded by sending out 5,000 e-mail each for a total of 50,000. Out of those 50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders. That's = 100 people responded and ordered Report # 2. Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report # 3. Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million e-mails sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for Re-port # 4. Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000,000 (50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for Report # 5 THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH = $500,000.00 (half million). Your total income in this example is: 1.. $50 + 2.. $500 + 3.. $5,000 + 4.. $50,000 + 5.. $500,000 .... Grand Total = $555,550.00 Numbers do not lie. Get a pencil & paper and figure out the worst possible responses and no matter how you calculate it, you will still make a lot of money! Remember friend, this is assuming only 10 people ordering out of 5,000 you mailed to. Dare to think for a moment what would happen if every-one, or half or even one 4th of those people mailed 100,000 e-mails each or more? There are over 150 million people on the internet world-wide and counting. Believe me, any people will do just that, and more! METHOD #2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there are hundreds of FREE places to adver-tise. Placing a lot of free ads on the internet will easily get a larger response. We strongly suggest you start with method #1 and add METHOD #2 as you go along. For every $5 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it . Always provide same day service on all orders. This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out,with your name and ad-dress on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they receive the report. ************** AVAILABLE REPORTS ************** ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of pa-per, Write the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are ordering, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address (PLEASE WRITE IN BLOCK LETTERS). PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW: ============================================= REPORT #1 "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Net" ORDER REPORT #1 FROM: Jeffrey Przybylski 501 W. Hacienda Ave. Apt. E2 Campbell, CA 95008 USA ___________________________________________ REPORT #2 "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk E-mail on the Net" ORDER REPORT #2 FROM: Emerson Branham PO Box 1798 Pineville WV 24874 USA _____________________________________________ REPORT #3 "The Secrets to Multilevel Marketing on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #3 FROM: Nigel Cass 131 Donovan Street Blockhouse Bay Auckland NEW ZEALAND _____________________________________________ REPORT #4 "How to become a Millionaire utilizing the Power of Multilevel Marketing and the Internet" ORDER REPORT #4 FROM: Bruce Telfer 9 Upland Street Bellevue Tauranga NEW ZEALAND ____________________________________________ REPORT #5 "How to SEND 1,000,000 e-mails for FREE" ORDER REPORT #5 FROM: Anton Kaufmann PF 1231 D-82176 Puchheim GERMANY ________________________________________ $$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$$ Follow these guidelines to guarantee your suc-cess: ***If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2 weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do. ***After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you should receive 100 orders or more for REPORT #2. If you did not, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. ***Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you , and the cash will con-tinue to roll in! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER : Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a Different report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate from this business!!! ________________________________________________ FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: "You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EF-FORT. You can make more money in the next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put your name and address in Report #1 and moved others to #2 ...........#5 as instructed above. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be on everyone of them. Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, infor-mation, materials and opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW! **************MORE TESTIMONIALS*************** 'My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving ''junk mail''. I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old ''I told you so'' on her when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received total $ 147,200.00 ......... all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jody in her ''hobby''. Mitchell Wolf, M.D. , Chicago, Illinois ---------------------------------------------- ''Not being the gambling type, it took me sev-eral weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back''. ''I was surprised when I found my medium size post of-fice box crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that it does not matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return and so big''. Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada ''I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone else.........11 months passed then it luckily came again...... I did not delete this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the money came within 22 weeks''. Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y. ''It really is a great opportunity to make rela-tively easy money with little cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully and within 10 days the money started to come in. My first month I made $ 20, 560.00 and by the end of third month my total cash count was $362,840.00. Life is beautiful, Thanx to internet''. Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM! If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Wash-ington, D.C. /////////////////////////////////// ONE TIME MAILING, NO NEED TO REMOVE /////////////////////////////////// This message is sent in compliance of the pro-posed bill SECTION 301. per Section 301, Para-graph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618. Further transmission to you by the sender of this e-mail may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply to: 6252001 at email.com with the word Remove in the subject line. This message is not intended for residents in the State of Washington, screening of addresses has been done to the best of our technical ability. From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Wed Sep 12 05:15:30 2001 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:15:30 +0100 Subject: The 4th Airliner Shot Down? References: <200109120256.WAA07019@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <3B9F51E1.1846AE8B@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> John Young wrote: > > Somebody who claims to be from inside the Pentagon > is saying an F16 shot down the airliner that crashed in > Pennsylvania. Are there news reports of this? Thee is also a net.rumour (with Jerry Pournelle's name attached to it) that someone on the plane attacked the hijackers whilst someone else was phoning home & describing it. Or it could be that the pilot deliberately went for a relatively uninhabited area. No doubt there will be other rumours. Ken From ericm at lne.com Wed Sep 12 13:15:33 2001 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:15:33 -0700 Subject: The COunterterrorist Myth Message-ID: <20010912131533.B9775@slack.lne.com> The Atlantic (july/aug 2001) has an article by a former CIA guy explaining why US intel. can't do much about bin Laden.... "Operations that include diarrhea as a way of life don't happen." http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2001/07/gerecht.htm also an older article on bin Laden's history with the CIA: http://msnbc.com/news/190144.asp?cp1=1 and a 1998 interview: http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/dailynews/terror_980609.html Eric From faithandvalues at yahoo.com Wed Sep 12 13:19:37 2001 From: faithandvalues at yahoo.com (FaithandValues.com) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:19:37 Subject: Faith Groups Respond To "Attack On America" Message-ID: <200109121718.KAA29220@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3220 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Wed Sep 12 13:19:45 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:19:45 -0700 Subject: "Alejandro transports" In-Reply-To: <20010912124920.A9458@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: <200109122019.f8CKJaf09907@slack.lne.com> On Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 12:49 PM, Eric Murray wrote: > Someone pointed me to some Usenet posts containing "encrypted > gibberish". > Doing a deja search on the words "Alejandro transports" from this > post shows that there's thousands of these posted to all kinds of > Usenet newsgroups. It looks like some sort of stego text system. > Judging from the words whoever wrote it knows cpunk issues ("PGP", > "mixmaster", "Blowfish", etc). > > I think I have seen examples of this before, but I can't remember > where. Does anyone know who or what generates it? > These auto-rants were copied to many newsgroups about a month or so ago. I doubt they are any kind of stego communication. For one thing, by being so obvious, they are not actually stego. Might was well just post pure crypto text. For another, the tight clustering in time suggests just a scattershot attempt to have some newsgroup fun. The inclusion of words like "SSL and "Blowfish" suggests to me that someone just inserted these into the particular Markov rant generator. I don't know which particular rant generator was used, however. --Tim May From cyixiong at yahoo.com Tue Sep 11 22:24:24 2001 From: cyixiong at yahoo.com (Chen Yixiong, Eric) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:24:24 +0800 Subject: [msal-politics] Re: [psychohistory] What can a Society Do? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > But a social system isn't (just) a 'system of rules'. It also has beliefs > and various cause-effect and dependency issues related to environment and > biology that cause Godel's to be inapplicable. The fact that it consists > of anything(!) more than a system of rules is enough to invalidate > Godel's. Godel's simply isn't applicable to a broad enough set of > examples. Though Godel's may keep you from proving it). Pardon my ignorance, but I would like to know, in a clear, consise language, about the above examples that can constitute "more than a set ot rules". Think of it: Does the laws of science really exist in the real world, or do they exist only in our heads? Put it in another manner: Do you really see this eco-system diagram when we make a stroll in the woods? Do you see mathematical equations spouting out of your car engines? Notes: More details explaining this and more on Godel's Theorem in another (now half-completed) non-political posting. > The reality is > that the concept of 'social system' is entirely too broad for the conept > of 'self-consistent language' to be applied. Where did the requirement for > 'consistency' in a social setting come from in the first place? And what > does 'consistency' actually mean in that context? Godel's Theorem applies to all systems, including illogical (as in inconsistent) ones, except itself (so it has incompleteness too). If you insist, I hope you can show me some examples. > A naive interpretation > might be that they always make decisions the same way or perhaps the same > selection. Either will fail because it won't respond to changes in the > environment. Clearly in conflict with the premise of being 'consistent'. Yes, for a same set of situation with perfect information, a rational person will always choose the best choice (if it exists). (Now, I know we don't get perfect information easily, but I shall handle this seperate issue in another post, or in the paper itself, not here.) However, I don't quite understand how always choosing the best choice has anything to do with inconsistency? You may call a simplified assumption naive, but then, a lot of other people start with "naive" assumptions that eventually make full-blown theories. Einstein, for example, had this assumption that light travels at a constant speed no matter at what speed you observe it, and this definitely seems "naive" also because it has goes against "common sense". _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From casey.iverson at hushmail.com Wed Sep 12 13:25:39 2001 From: casey.iverson at hushmail.com (casey.iverson at hushmail.com) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:25:39 -0700 Subject: Bombings, Surveillance, and Free Societies Message-ID: <200109122025.f8CKPdq81679@mailserver1c.hushmail.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 02:22 PM 9/12/01 , Tim May wrote: >Personally, while I feel sorry for the dead in Israel, I think anyone who >moves to a small desert state surrounded on all sides by Arabs who want >their land back is asking for trouble. Tim May feels as sorry for the dead in Israel as Arafat and the Taliban feel for the dead in NYC and DC. Sorry Tim. Every one in Washington was not killed, but maybe next time. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: Hush 2.0 wmIEARECACIFAjufxCIbHGNhc2V5Lml2ZXJzb25AaHVzaG1haWwuY29tAAoJECOHEkU4 cuRB/YYAn2SKupNhCaeVglmi+OZHR8/EMRQNAJoCt2e/8q2LNtvQxLINIdVPv4ID0A== =3XX3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From tcmay at got.net Wed Sep 12 14:06:01 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 14:06:01 -0700 Subject: Manufacturing consent In-Reply-To: <20010912163225.A30485@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <200109122105.f8CL5qf10269@slack.lne.com> On Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 01:32 PM, Declan McCullagh wrote: > On Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 02:59:57PM -0400, Trei, Peter wrote: >> This morning the local media here in Massachusetts were reporting that >> a bag for the flight which fortuitously failed to get on the plane was >> found to contain a Koran, "Islamic materials", and a videotape on >> flying commercial jets. Clearly, someone who was already a commercial >> pilot would not have needed the latter item. > > Maybe I'm being a little suspicious, but why in the world would a > terrorist who doesn't want to be caught and doesn't need the videotape > (can't watch it on the plane, realistically, I presume) any more take > it on the plane with him? > If a car or hotel room had not been found with Arabic writings and tapes, it would have been necessary to invent the materials. The CIA has an entire department which does nothing but manufacture such stuff. --Tim May From declan at well.com Wed Sep 12 11:23:06 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 14:23:06 -0400 Subject: Coordination, maximizing terror, hypotheses (fwd) In-Reply-To: <3B9F9FCE.AEA6A06@jump.net> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010912122316.0213e7a0@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010912142107.0217d890@mail.well.com> At 12:47 PM 9/12/01 -0500, Jeff Bone wrote: > > This is nonsense, > >Just thinking out loud, here, not asserting anything. Fair enough. > and shows how seriously we should take the rest of the > > message. I was at the Pentagon yesterday; the plane did not hit the south > > side. (Photos at mccullagh.org). > >Strictly speaking, there's not a "south side" as far as I know; the plane >hit the >side between the Mall entrance and the south parking area, which IIRC >faces roughly >southwest and parallel's Route 27. That's what I gather from the news >I've heard >anyway... Of course there's a south (or very close to a south) side to a building that has five of them. I put some photos I took yesterday up at mccullagh.org; the attack hit on the north (maybe you could call it northeast) side. >I'm not suggesting that he fessed up without intending to, just that the >gag order >may have been extended, reinstated, or whatever. After Armey allegedly told this to CNN's largest audience in a decade? I doubt it. -Declan From eh-cypherpunks at grace.speakeasy.net Wed Sep 12 14:37:11 2001 From: eh-cypherpunks at grace.speakeasy.net (Eric Hughes) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 14:37:11 -0700 Subject: An Open Letter on Privacy and Anonymity Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010912122429.03cffc80@pop.speakeasy.net> 2001 September 12 An Open Letter on Privacy and Anonymity Fellow Citizens of the United States of America: I am moved to write as a founder of a movement that, far beyond my own efforts, has eloquently expressed an ideal, the ideal of privacy in society. Privacy is not uniquely American, yet it is at the core of the American ideal, at the core of free speech that enables human connection, at the core of free association that builds society up from a savage state, at the core of liberty. I helped to start cypherpunks, a movement for privacy in the digital world. Cypherpunks is a diverse movement with no explicit doctrine, yet with a deep shared desire for human liberty. Let none who call me friend say that the events of September 11 are anything other than a dark day upon humanity. In the midst of the violence, I see a thirst for the taste of the blood of vengeance in the mouths of many of my fellow citizens. I see that destruction will ineluctably ride upon the opponents of the country of these my fellow citizens. So be it. I do not seek here to forestall or to avoid the violence directed toward the perpetrators of these deeds. I write as a citizen of the United States that our country may avoid a self-inflicted wound against liberty. The terrorists have struck a blow against liberty, it is said. The terrorists will strike again, it is said. I say to all, let us not strike the second blow against ourselves. Today we are seeking an enemy unknown, an enemy who is hiding, as well they ought to. The thirst that drives our country forward now cannot be slaked without the apprehension of those responsible, and we have yet to identify or find them. We now have a great temptation before us, to lash out at those amongst ourselves who may be thought to have given succor to our enemies, at those amongst ourselves who may be thought to still provide them solace and deception, and at those amongst ourselves whom some dislike for unrelated reasons. I wish to repeat again the words of Governor Davis of California, who spoke yesterday that "we are all Americans." We are all Americans, and we should not attack ourselves. We are all Americans, and we should not fight each other in the streets. We are all Americans, and we should not turn our law enforcement apparatus and our national security infrastructure against the very liberties that we all hold dear. The goal of these terrorists is to restrict freedoms in America, to steal its essence and to weaken it. I shall pray we do not cooperate with this their goal in a hot-headed rush to immediate results. Let the anger of this country be cold and calmly directed, that the accompaniment of wrath be precision. The terrorists are cowards, it is said. Shall America be a coward to itself? We have an excess of strength to expend upon our opponents, be they external or internal. We will find that there are internal champions of liberty that have without conspiracy or knowledge furthered the plans of our opponents, who have taken advantage of the liberties that America offers all who enter her shores. Many of these champions I know personally, because cypherpunks have enabled liberty on-line to all takers, without discrimination and without distinction. Let the prevailing wrath be directed not against those to promote liberty, but those who consciously seek to destroy it. We need not curtail our liberty in order to save it. The message is seductive that we may more effectively fight for liberty if we limit our freedoms for a time whose end has yet to be announced. Yet this is not the message of America, but of several of its vanquished enemies. For liberty is not fair-weather clothing that may only be worn when the weather is good. Liberty is rather the jewel in the locket, the most prized possession short of family and life itself. We diminish ourselves if we rationalize our freedom away in an evanescent fog of rhetoric about efficiency. Liberty is not efficient; it is expensive and tortuous, and as an American people we desire it before most everything else. As we enter a new century, let us demonstrate the true strength of an open society -- that it can withstand the threat of demagoguery even as it remains a powerful actor against an external threat. This is the ideal that our strength may manifest, that a democracy may express its power as a democracy itself, and not as a police state masquerading as one. I stand with the Federal Congress and sing "America, my home, sweet home." For I live upon this land and soil, with other people who have set their lives along the course of freedom. I pray that we may all pass through this dark time with the dignity of our own ideals intact, that we may pass through to the other side with renewed vigor to pursue the cause of freedom over all the earth. My heart grieves with those who have lost, yet it also rejoices that we might yet undergo this ordeal as a country and emerge stronger and more faithful to our own nature. May peace be with you all, with the fullness of your existence in tow. Eric Hughes [Please feel free to post this at will.] From tcmay at got.net Wed Sep 12 14:48:58 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 14:48:58 -0700 Subject: terrorism Message-ID: <200109122148.f8CLmvf10581@slack.lne.com> [Tim's note: This is from John McCarthy, Professor of Computer Science (or AI, or similar) at Stanford. Prof. McCarthy was the originator of the term "artificial intelligence," invented the language LISP, and has been a creative thinker for many decades. I have always admired his no-nonsense approach to problems. I ran across this article in rec.arts.books.] > Path: sjcpnn01.usenetserver.com!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!sjcppf01.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!newsfeeder.randori.com!newsfeed.stanford.edu!nntp.stanford.edu!not-for-mail > From: John McCarthy > Newsgroups: rec.arts.books > Subject: terrorism > Date: 12 Sep 2001 09:56:32 -0700 > Lines: 38 > Message-ID: > NNTP-Posting-Host: steam.stanford.edu > X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" > Xref: e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com rec.arts.books:98083 > > 1. The media and the politicians have made this attack a "national > emergency" as well as an act of war. It is an act of war but an > emergency only in New York and Washington. If we regard ourselves as > at war with the terrorists, we should minimize the disruption their > actions cause rather than exaggerate it and increase it. Some > universities in California and most of the public schools closed > because of the alleged emergency. I'm pleased that Stanford > University stayed open. > > 2. It has been the policy of the airlines and the FAA that flight crew > should obey hijackers on the grounds that the policy saves lives. Up > to now it has saved lives, but the number of lives lost today far > outweighs the number saved in toto by the past policy. One of the > cell phone calls recounted that the hijackers herded the crew and > passengers to the back of the plane. Unless there is some guarantee > that this kind of hijacking won't happen again, it will be safer to > arm the crew to fight it out with hijackers, both for the safety of > passengers and for the safety of possible targets. I believe this is > the Israeli policy, and there has been exactly one hijacking of an > Israeli plane, and that was the very first hijacking of all. > > 3. I suppose the crew of the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania had > heard about the WTC crashes and decided to fight it out rather than > let the hijackers crash the plane into a public building, but very > likely they weren't adequately equipped and trained for this. > > 4. Feminist note: The flight crew is often just two men, sometimes > including a woman. The cabin crew is much larger. If hijackers are > to be fought, the cabin crew, mostly female, should be prepared to mob > them and inspire passengers to help. > > 5. Putting an armed plain clothes security guard on each flight would > also work. It just adds one person to the crew. > > -- > John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305 > http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/ > He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense. From elvin-velez at home.com Wed Sep 12 11:54:32 2001 From: elvin-velez at home.com (elvin velez) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 14:54:32 -0400 Subject: Undervalued Growth Stock References: <200109121330.IAA32185@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <000901c13bbc$5bf5a440$b6192818@bens1.pa.home.com> remove ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 13:30 Subject: Undervalued Growth Stock > > OTCBB Stock Alert's Last Two Picks: > EMRG from $ .60 to $2.50 in 10 days for a GAIN OF OVER 400%!!! > DICE from $ .49 to $1.62 in 7 days for a GAIN OF OVER 300%!!! > > HERE IS OUR NEXT EXPLOSIVE STOCK PICK: > Diversified Product Inspections, Inc. (OTCBB: DPRI) > BUY AT $1.25 > SELL TARGET $4.60 = DIAMOND PLAY !!!! > > MAJOR CONTRACT ANNOUNCEMENTS AND HUGE NEWSLETTER COVERAGE THIS WEEK FOR DPRI !!! > > Revenues for DPRI, a 10-year old, fully-reporting company, have skyrocketed 600% higher this > year to over $8 Million on substantial US Government and Insurance Industry contracts. DPRI's > client list of over 50 major insurance companies includes Allstate, Fireman's Fund, Travelers, > Liberty Mutual, Prudential, Hartford, and Nationwide. > > We are expecting significant news this week regarding increasing revenue and contract > expansion from DPRI's Fortune 500 customer base. The stock has already bounced sharply from > its 52-week low and will continue moving up immediately. We think the stock could easily climb > above $4 in less than a month. > > WE ARE PROJECTING RECORD VOLUME AND PRICE APPRECIATION AS DPRI MAY VERY WELL BE ONE OF THE > MOST UNDERVALUED STOCKS ON THE OTCBB!!! > > DISCLAIMER: OTCBB Stock Alert is a financial advisory network focusing on high-growth > companies with the intent to offer its subscribers a great investment reward. It has the > policy to acquire existing small newsletters, is not affiliated with any broker or dealer and > is not a registered > investment advisor. The information contained in this publication is for informational > purposes only and is neither an offer to sell nor a solicitation of any offer to buy > securities. Investment in smallcap companies is considered extremely speculative and may > result in the loss of some or all of any investment made in these companies. Investors should > use the information > contained in this publication as a starting point for conducting additional research on the > featured company in order to allow the investor to form their own opinion regarding the > featured company. OTCBB Stock Alert has received five thousand free trading shares from a > third party as > compensation for the dissemination of this stock profile. Since we have a position in DPRI > there is an inherent conflict of interest in our statements and opinions and therefore such > statements and opinions cannot be considered independent. We will benefit from any increase in > price for DPRI. We may liquidate our position at any time; before, during or after the > dissemination of this stock alert. > From dog3 at ns.charc.net Wed Sep 12 11:58:22 2001 From: dog3 at ns.charc.net (cubic-dog) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 14:58:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Manhattan Mid-Afternoon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > non-interference. Sweden and Switzerland come to mind as > prosperous, modern, western nations which don't have problems with > terrorism. Our country should look to such successful terrorism > prevention policies as examples. Why, oh why, do folks keep insisting that if the US were like so-an-so, than such-an-such wouldn't have happened. There is no country like the U.S. Likening the U.S. to these small state-countries is truly an apples and oranges type comparison. From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Wed Sep 12 11:59:57 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 14:59:57 -0400 Subject: Manhattan Mid-Afternoon Message-ID: > Harmon Seaver[SMTP:hseaver at ameritech.net] wrote: > > > "Raymond D. Mereniuk" wrote: > > > I don't see where only a terrorist group backed by the resources of > > a national government could pull this off. A week or two for planning > > and a group of people who can keep their mouth's shut plus the > > most important quality, big gonads and a desire to die for a > > perceived purpose. > > So right -- all these people talking about "it had to be a big, well > funded, well organized group with lots of resources" are talking total > nonsense. > It could have been a tiny cadre of eight or twelve people with no more > money > than to buy some plane tickets. Flying a plane doesn't take a heck of lot > either, once it's in the air. It's not even that hard taking off -- > landing is > the bitch. [...] > Harmon Seaver, MLIS > I noticed one data point which suggests that the terrorists on Flight 11 from Boston did not have the flying skills of a commercial pilot. CNN at one point showed the ground track of the flight (it was available on some website). The flight kept it's normal track (slightly north of west from Boston) until it crossed over the NY state border. Soon after that, it took a sharp left turn and headed south for NYC. But not a straight line - it was clear that they were following the Hudson River. So, they were using visual navigation. An experienced, instrument rated pilot could have flown a direct route to NYC, somewhat shortening the time his colleagues would have had to keep the passengers subdued. Further on the skills thing - at one time I toyed with the idea of getting a private pilots license, and even took a couple lessons. I found that the experience I had gained using a Flight Simulator program on a PC was invaluable, particularly for getting the hang straight-and-level flight, making coordinated turns, changing altitudes, etc, which are all the skills that the terrorist would have needed. This morning the local media here in Massachusetts were reporting that a bag for the flight which fortuitously failed to get on the plane was found to contain a Koran, "Islamic materials", and a videotape on flying commercial jets. Clearly, someone who was already a commercial pilot would not have needed the latter item. I sincerely hope that the remaining perpetrators of this atrocity are found and punished, but entertain no illusions that doing so will prevent future attacks. That can only come from a shift of US government attitude from "I've got the biggest stick", to one of non-interference. Sweden and Switzerland come to mind as prosperous, modern, western nations which don't have problems with terrorism. Our country should look to such successful terrorism prevention policies as examples. > Peter Trei From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Wed Sep 12 13:37:05 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 15:37:05 -0500 (CDT) Subject: NSA monitors domestic cellular In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Derek Balling wrote: > >If it goes out of the country it isn't domestic. > > But the news was reporting about looking for "people who were on the > planes calling friends and family" (e.g., other people like that > Olson woman on Flt. 93), ... if they're recording THOSE calls then > there's a serious question raised of "why". Being in the air is considered out of the country? -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Wed Sep 12 12:41:30 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 15:41:30 -0400 Subject: Manhattan Mid-Afternoon Message-ID: > Bill Stewart[SMTP:bill.stewart at pobox.com] wrote > > At 02:59 PM 09/12/2001 -0400, Trei, Peter wrote: > >I sincerely hope that the remaining perpetrators of this atrocity are > >found and punished, but entertain no illusions that doing so will > >prevent future attacks. That can only come from a shift of US > >government attitude from "I've got the biggest stick", to one of > >non-interference. Sweden and Switzerland come to mind as > >prosperous, modern, western nations which don't have problems with > >terrorism. Our country should look to such successful terrorism > >prevention policies as examples. > > And even then, Swedish president Palme was assassinated some years ago. > Palme was proof that folks who interefere in other people's business get burned. He was far from merely a Swedish president. He lost that position in 1976, regaining it in 1982 (he was murdered in 1986). In the interim, he was an international do-gooder, meddling in the affairs of many countries. The list of possible enemies is long, including Croatian nationalists, Kurds, West German terrorist factions, and South African secret police (he was killed a week after speaking at an anti-apartheid rally). There is also a possibility that it was an internal assassination. Whoever killed him, this was an attack aimed at Palme personally, not at Swedes in general. So my point stands - very, very few people consider the Swedes or Sweden as a 'Great Satan'. The US could do worse than take a leaf from their book. Peter Trei From jneil at mediaone.net Wed Sep 12 15:47:57 2001 From: jneil at mediaone.net (J. Neil Schulman) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 15:47:57 -0700 Subject: I can't take it anymore .... Message-ID: My friends, I had intended to remain silent to allow a decent period of mourning, in the aftermath of the American tragedy that is now, evidently, a well-planned lethal foreign attack against Americans on 911 Tuesday, America's second Day of Infamy. But I just saw Senator Kay Bailey Hutchinson being interviewed by Neil Cavuto on Fox News, and she was suggesting that it was "ridiculous for Americans to have to go into protective mode" when they board an aircraft. She wants us to sit quietly when we board, secure in the knowledge that there's a sky marshall on board. How did the people of Texas, the heirs of Sam Houston and Colonel Davy Crockett, elect this sissy? I told you so, I told you so, I told you so! I've been saying it as loudly as I could for over ten years. I've written books and articles, spoke on radio and TV, gave speeches. If you disarm the people -- if you make them give up their guns when they get on a plane, go into a post office, get taken out to the ball game -- then there will never be enough police officers to go around when the bad guys decide to strike, without warning, at a time and place of their own choosing. The jetliners that took down the World Trade Center, a city of 50,000 daytime inhabitants, and that exploded into the very military headquarters of the world's only remaining superpower, were taken over by a few thugs with boxcutters. If the airline pilots had guns this couldn't have happened. If the flight attendants had guns this couldn't have happened. If local police officers who fly were allowed to carry their guns with them, warned only to switch to frangible ammunition, this couldn't have happened. If I -- or someone like me -- a fat middle-aged American couch potato, but with police-quality training in firearms, had been allowed to carry my Glock 23 pistol on one of these flights, this couldn't have happened. But what is the solution of the big brains in charge of our national security? Yes, you got it. This is not a joke. Before you get on a plane, they want to take away your pen knives, nail clippers, and boxcutters! This new FAA regulation goes into effect before they will allow commercial flights to even take off. If you still are one of those who believe in petitioning the government for a redress of grievances, please let your duly-elected public servant know what you think of Americans who board airliners being treated even more like cattle than they are already. Ask them how many Americans must die before they intend to allow us to defend our lives. Write anyone else you think might listen. Call talk radio. Post Internet messages on the major news websites. Call, write, and email anyone in the media you know personally. Call and write Attorney General Ashcroft and White House presidential advisor Karl Rove. Attorney General John Ashcroft (Dear General Ashcroft) Main Justice Bldg. Room 1603 Constitution Avenue NW Washington, DC 20530 Mr. Karl Rove (Dear Mr. Rove) Sr. Advisor to the President The White House 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue Washington, DC 20500 We have no time to mourn. We have our loved ones and neighbors to defend, before the next thug with a grievance makes them the next target. Have we not already been told by the President of the United States that we are at war with terrorists? J. Neil Schulman, author Stopping Power: Why 70 Million Americans Own Guns Webmaster, The World Wide Web Gun Defense Clock -- "The other rain is sunshine." --J. Neil Schulman, July 21, 2000 EaZychair.com: http://www.eaZychair.com Tangleweed.com: http://www.tangleweed.com Pulpless.Com Book Catalog: http://www.pulpless.com The World According to J. Neil Schulman: http://jneil.tv The World Wide Web Gun Defense Clock: http://www.gunclock.org ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************** From roy at scytale.com Wed Sep 12 14:31:45 2001 From: roy at scytale.com (Roy M. Silvernail) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 16:31:45 -0500 Subject: Manhattan Mid-Afternoon In-Reply-To: <20010912163225.A30485@cluebot.com> References: ; from ptrei@rsasecurity.com on Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 02:59:57PM -0400 Message-ID: <3B9F8DF1.25479.1D0D4DC@localhost> On 12 Sep 2001, at 16:32, Declan McCullagh wrote: > On Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 02:59:57PM -0400, Trei, Peter wrote: > > This morning the local media here in Massachusetts were reporting > > that a bag for the flight which fortuitously failed to get on the > > plane was found to contain a Koran, "Islamic materials", and a > > videotape on flying commercial jets. Clearly, someone who was > > already a commercial pilot would not have needed the latter item. > > Maybe I'm being a little suspicious, but why in the world would a > terrorist who doesn't want to be caught and doesn't need the videotape > (can't watch it on the plane, realistically, I presume) any more take > it on the plane with him? I was wondering in a similar vein. There are also the reports of the rented car found to contain Arabic-language flight training manuals, and the hotel room in Boston rented by persons sharing the names of suspect passengers on the hijacked flights. NewsMax carries a story (http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/9/12/80845.shtml) that 5 suspects have been identified. This is too easy. The overt sophistication of this attack was such that I have a hard time believing the perps would leave so many obvious clues behind without intending to. And if they intended to leave clues, the clues are almost certainly red herrings. Interesting times, indeed. > > -Declan -- Roy M. Silvernail Proprietor, scytale.com roy at scytale.com From declan at well.com Wed Sep 12 13:32:26 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 16:32:26 -0400 Subject: Manhattan Mid-Afternoon In-Reply-To: ; from ptrei@rsasecurity.com on Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 02:59:57PM -0400 References: Message-ID: <20010912163225.A30485@cluebot.com> On Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 02:59:57PM -0400, Trei, Peter wrote: > CNN at one point showed the ground track of the flight (it was available > on some website). The flight kept it's normal track (slightly north of > west from Boston) until it crossed over the NY state border. Soon after > that, it took a sharp left turn and headed south for NYC. But not a straight > line - it was clear that they were following the Hudson River. Another explanation: Could they be following a usual flight corridor to deflect suspicion? I have no idea if this is the case, but it would make sense to have such corridors above water, if only not to annoy residents overmuch. That's what National does, more or less. > Further on the skills thing - at one time I toyed with the idea of getting > a private pilots license, and even took a couple lessons. I found that the > experience I had gained using a Flight Simulator program on a PC was > invaluable, particularly for getting the hang straight-and-level flight, > making > coordinated turns, changing altitudes, etc, which are all the skills that > the terrorist would have needed. Agreed, if they were flying small one or two engine planes. Not sure if that translates as well to a large, modern jet aircraft. > This morning the local media here in Massachusetts were reporting that > a bag for the flight which fortuitously failed to get on the plane was > found to contain a Koran, "Islamic materials", and a videotape on > flying commercial jets. Clearly, someone who was already a commercial > pilot would not have needed the latter item. Maybe I'm being a little suspicious, but why in the world would a terrorist who doesn't want to be caught and doesn't need the videotape (can't watch it on the plane, realistically, I presume) any more take it on the plane with him? -Declan From sorrin at lockstar.com Wed Sep 12 13:35:24 2001 From: sorrin at lockstar.com (Steve Orrin) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 16:35:24 -0400 Subject: EMI samples new digital security ('digital rights mgmt') Message-ID: <002701c13bca$737e1580$0300000a@lithium.lockstar> Yet another stupid DRM solution. One simply needs to capture the "password protect 2nd stream" (or hack the super secure;) password protected server site). When will they learn that secure DRM is an oxymoron. -so -----Original Message----- From: Dynamite Bob To: cypherpunks at lne.com X-Orig-To: cypherpunks at lne.com Date: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 4:25 PM Subject: EMI samples new digital security ('digital rights mgmt') >EMI samples new digital security > > By Gwendolyn Mariano CNET News.com > > In an effort to prevent unauthorized copying of music files, EMI >Recorded Music said > Tuesday it will begin using security from BayView Systems that >offers a new twist on the > burgeoning technology known as digital rights management. > > Unlike competitors that use encryption or >watermarking techniques to > prevent copying, San Francisco-based BayView >Systems has designed > its Duolizer technology to essentially split music >files in two. A large, > main file, called the Flexible File, is stored on >the listener's hard drive, > while a smaller file, called the Secure Stream, is >stored on a > password-protected server, controlled by the >content owner. Listeners > enter the password to have the smaller file >streamed and listen to the > song. > > The two files are combined while the song is >played, but otherwise > remain separate. The company said that the owner's >rights are > preserved because end-users never have a complete [Ed note: fnord] >copy of the music, regardless of the > number of times the file is shared. > > >http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/cn/20010912/tc/emi_samples_new_digital_securit y_1.html From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Wed Sep 12 08:45:23 2001 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 16:45:23 +0100 Subject: Manhattan Mid-Afternoon References: <3B9E9D9D.11308.C4EC8A4@localhost> <3B9F7DB8.79C279D4@ameritech.net> Message-ID: <3B9F8313.FF14E7DA@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Harmon Seaver wrote: > > "Raymond D. Mereniuk" wrote: > > > I don't see where only a terrorist group backed by the resources of > > a national government could pull this off. A week or two for planning > > and a group of people who can keep their mouth's shut plus the > > most important quality, big gonads and a desire to die for a > > perceived purpose. > > So right -- all these people talking about "it had to be a big, well > funded, well organized group with lots of resources" are talking total nonsense. > It could have been a tiny cadre of eight or twelve people with no more money > than to buy some plane tickets. Flying a plane doesn't take a heck of lot > either, once it's in the air. A friend of mine wonders if they had a Boeing flight simulator. Apparently they would need to know how to disable the autopilot and do a couple of other technobabble things a groundling like me doesn't recognise. But with access to a training simulator they could learn enough in a few days. Or so I am told. I suppose such machines are all over the place these days, Boeing having more or less a monopoly on medium-large commercial passenger planes. So there could be training facilities just about anywhere. I have no real idea how rare and/or expensive they would be. Ken From bmickey at sonic.net Wed Sep 12 17:05:40 2001 From: bmickey at sonic.net (Brian Mickey) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:05:40 -0700 Subject: Message-ID: From ericm at lne.com Wed Sep 12 17:13:00 2001 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:13:00 -0700 Subject: FBI going to Internet for clues Message-ID: <20010912171300.A11316@slack.lne.com> http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2001/09/12/financial1728EDT0175.DTL "The FBI is serving search warrants to major Internet service providers in order to get information about an e-mail address believed to be connected to Tuesday's terrorist attacks. [..] "They said they're going to all the ISPs," the executive said. From jya at pipeline.com Wed Sep 12 17:18:26 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:18:26 -0700 Subject: NSA monitors domestic cellular In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200109122125.RAA21574@maynard.mail.mindspring.net> NSA can legally acquire any signal at any time without restriction. It is limited in what it can do with communications of "US persons" that are acquired as part of the overall intake. USSID 18, NSA's manual for electronic interception, describes in great detail these procedures with particular emphasis on how to handle intercepts of US persons to comply with legal restrictions. So the agency can intercept everything in the electromagnetic spectrum, and apparently does so. And, if given a special order to do so, it can subject communications of US persons for analysis and reporting outside the agency. It does take a special procedure to do this which is described in the manual. One type of intercept that is unique, and that is data concerning crypto which may be acquired and stored in perpetuity for later analysis no matter from whom it is acquired, including US persons. From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Wed Sep 12 08:23:46 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:23:46 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: FC: FBI pushes Carnivore on network providers after attacks (fwd) Message-ID: -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 10:17:03 -0400 From: Declan McCullagh To: politech at politechbot.com Subject: FC: FBI pushes Carnivore on network providers after attacks http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,46747,00.html Anti-Attack Feds Push Carnivore By Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com) 2:00 a.m. Sep. 12, 2001 PDT WASHINGTON -- Federal police are reportedly increasing Internet surveillance after Tuesday's deadly attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. Just hours after three airplanes smashed into the buildings in what some U.S. legislators have dubbed a second Pearl Harbor, FBI agents began to visit Web-based, e-mail firms and network providers, according to engineers at those companies who spoke on condition of anonymity. An administrator at one major network service provider said that FBI agents showed up at his workplace on Tuesday "with a couple of Carnivores, requesting permission to place them in our core, along with offers to actually pay for circuits and costs." [...] Microsoft's Hotmail service has also been the target of increased federal attention, according to an engineer who works there. "Hotmail officials have been receiving calls from the San Francisco FBI office since mid-(Tuesday) morning and are cooperating with their expedited requests for information about a few specific accounts," the person said. "Most of the account names start with the word 'Allah' and contain messages in Arabic." [...] ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. Declan McCullagh's photographs are at http://www.mccullagh.org/ To subscribe to Politech: http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From dbob at semtex.com Wed Sep 12 17:42:32 2001 From: dbob at semtex.com (Dynamite Bob) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:42:32 -0700 Subject: Ben-Laden Demolition Message-ID: <3BA000F8.287FF314@semtex.com> > (the collapsing towers reminded me of Independence Day). Reminded me of Sideshow Bob[1]... buildings sprouting dreadlocks.. Didn't have any Einsturzende Neubaten playing that early in the AM, though [1] of _The Simpsons_ From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Wed Sep 12 15:51:52 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:51:52 -0500 Subject: FOXNews.com - Dump Tenet (CIA Director) Movement Underway Message-ID: <3B9FE708.F289E260@ssz.com> http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,34293,00.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody at dizum.com Wed Sep 12 09:00:46 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 18:00:46 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Cypherpunks and terrorism Message-ID: <4be50f9bc3262e18de859461637c7cfe@dizum.com> Suffused with boredom, Lucky Green wrote, > Nomen wrote: > --------------- > What are the roles of we who provide technology that aids terrorists > as well as honorable people who seek the shield of privacy? Do we bear > a share of the responsibility for the deaths and other consequences of > terrorist attacks such as we have seen today? > --------------- > > No. The chicken are merely coming home to roost. No surprise there. Sure, but whose chicken? Maybe our own policies and beliefs have turned against us, to our detriment. There have been a number of reports that bin Laden uses cryptography and even steganography tools. This could still have a significant crypto connection. But if not this time, then next time. Sooner or later a catastrophe will happen due to our technology. Most people's worries seem narrow. "Will I get in trouble? Will the software be banned?" What about, "Should I be a contributor to the murder of thousands? Should I be promoting technology which could lead to a backlash against freedom?" Some terrorists have exactly this as their goal. They are hoping to trigger a counter-reaction, an over-reaction, by the authorities. They want to see a crackdown on liberties, a police state. This will weaken the enemy and demoralize him. It will increase hostility and make the population less willing to support the government. Perhaps some readers share this view. Tim May, spiritual leader of the cypherpunks, has expressed support for the actions of Timothy McVeigh in murdering schoolchildren in Oklahoma City. He has frequently called for the killing of every resident of Washington, D.C. Will he now speak out in favor of the death of tens of thousands in New York City? Perhaps, for him, this is the true cypherpunk goal: promote murder and catastrophe in order to trigger a spasm of Western totalitarianism, hoping that the state will then self-destruct. If so, then laws like the DMCA and SSSCA should be welcomed with open arms. Likewise with prosecutions for pornography and, even better, bans on software technologies. These measures work hand in hand with the responses to terrorism in strengthening the control of the state over the individual. Those few remaining cypherpunks who cling to the original goal of freedom, privacy and liberty, should face the moral issues squarely. A case can be made that the technologies we favor are a positive force in the world, even though they can be used for destructive means. But there are arguments on both sides, especially in a world where a few people can use the shield of anonymity to coordinate actions that lead to massive deaths. The point is, cypherpunks must face and accept the responsibility for the harm their technologies can cause, as they should also feel pride in the positive effects. And they must be able to show, at least to themselves, that the positives outweigh the negatives. At least, unless they are taking Tim May's view of the world, where no deaths are too many and the blood of innocents ushers in a welcome new age of tyranny. From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Wed Sep 12 09:03:25 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 18:03:25 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Coordination, maximizing terror, hypotheses (fwd) Message-ID: -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 10:49:13 -0500 From: Jeff Bone To: Robert S. Thau , fork at xent.com Subject: Coordination, maximizing terror, hypotheses * The timing of the WTC attacks is extraordinary, and points not only to a high degree of coordination but also to a keen sensibility in planning the mission. Consider: if both planes had hit the buildings simultaneously, there would've been very little footage of the second attack. Too little time between the attacks and there would've been less coverage and no real-time horror; too much time and the alert status might've been such that the second collision could be prevented. * The targeting of the second attack may be a subtle pointer to state involvement. I understand that the part of the Pentagon that was hit houses the nerve center for the Army's worldwide logistics command. It appears that this part of the building was intentionally targeted, as the plane apparently performed an overshoot-and-return maneuver in order to line up with the south side of the building, whereas it could've gone into the opposite side with no such maneuver. A small, highly-mobile group of perps wouldn't be concerned about damaging the Army's logistical capability, as any retaliation would like be air-based or, if ground-based, a smaller strike squad with separate / minimal logistical concerns. Crippling Army logistics might have been a strategic consideration designed to minimize the ability to mount an immediate, large-scale, ground-based response with traditional forces. Further speculation: this may point away from Afghanistan / Taliban involvement and more towards Iraq or Iran, for the reasons noted earlier re: the difficulty of mounting a ground-based invasion of Afghanistan. * Our own forces may have shot down the plane over Pennsylvania. Dick Armey was giving an interview last night, and after being asked leading questions by Wolf Blitzer he started making comments about being given a classified briefing with information specifically about that plane. The interview was then censored, with sound edited out for about 30 seconds. I think this could well be an "open secret" that the media has been let in on but gagged about in order to minimize public backlash / confusion. Other indications also exist, in the news that's coming out about where and when fighters were scrambled. This is clearly speculative, but a possibiliity. http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork From dbob at semtex.com Wed Sep 12 18:10:53 2001 From: dbob at semtex.com (Dynamite Bob) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 18:10:53 -0700 Subject: New flight rules Message-ID: <3BA0079D.73AF9660@semtex.com> Airlines would only be allowed to provide passengers with plastic knives and butter knives to eat their meals, an FAA spokesman said. http://sg.news.yahoo.com/010912/1/1fwyc.html Also: only crayons, no pens or pencils. All PDAs, with their sharp styli and brittle glass displays, will be replaced with Etch-a-Sketch toys. Also all fingernails must be trimmed to 2mm past the fingerpad, this must be done before passing through security as nailclippers with nailfiles will not be permitted on board, either. Good thing none of the Martyr Airlines dudes shorted out their laptop batteries to make a diversion... ...... Jeezus guys, get a clue. You can't pull the same stunt twice, whether its a 'normal' hijacking which turns out to be different (so much for passenger compliance..), or the latest social-engineering virus trick. The rubes *do* learn. The next time, its a bottle of Japanese Subway Perfume. Alas, a lot less eye candy with that. From sandfort at mindspring.com Wed Sep 12 18:26:34 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 18:26:34 -0700 Subject: FW: "Attack on America" - a Personal Response Message-ID: C'punks, Here's a thoughtful piece I received from Sean Hastings: > From: Sean Hastings [mailto:whysean at softhome.net] > Sent: 12 September, 2001 20:22 > Subject: FW: "Attack on America" - a Personal Response > > > > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > "Attack on America" - a Personal Response > by Sean Hastings > > My wife Jo, my dog Wasabi, and myself were all in New York City at the > time of the attack on the World Trade Center. Thankfully we are all > alive and unharmed. > > Although we were just a few miles from the site of the crashes, we were > alerted to what was going on by a friend's phone call and turned on the > news to watch. Safely insulated from it all by the magic of television, > we saw the Twin Towers burn and collapse knowing that tens of thousands > of people were probably still inside. Later, as we were able to get > through on a somewhat overloaded telephone network, we called our > friends and family around the world to assure them that we were safe, > and we called our New York friends to make sure that they too were ok. > > Some friends I talked to personally witnessed the second jet strike the > tower and saw people leaping to their deaths to escape the flames. One > told me the story of a London office connected to its New York > branch in > the World Trade Center by a live video link. Their trapped co-workers > told them that they were unable to leave the building, and that they > knew they were all going to die, then the screen went blank at the same > time as the TV news showed one of the towers collapse. > > Communications technology has brought this tragedy to all of us more > closely than was ever before possible. An entire nation, and perhaps > most of the world was able to watch these events unfold in real time. > Feedback of reactions from around the world was also available in real > time. Most people were shocked and horrified, but I also saw > reports of > people in some countries cheering and celebrating this attack on the > US. My first reaction was very emotional - I found myself thinking > "Bomb them back into the stone age" - and this shocked me. I consider > myself to be an individualist to the core, but I now know that a blind > loyalty to the group does exists somewhere deep inside me. At that > moment, I would have been willing to unthinkingly follow anyone > claiming to know how to justly avenge these acts, and prevent any more > such in the future. > > Then I saw the start of the political rhetoric - various politicians > declaring that this was a time for supporting our leaders, and not > questioning or second-guessing their actions - law enforcement > officials saying that this was precisely why they all needed greater > powers over my life. Before the fires were even out - while people > were still burning and being crushed to death under tons of rubble - > there were already people trying to use my emotional reaction to > increase their power over my life and further their careers. > > It was then that I realized that I was witnessing a very real threat to > our nation and our way of life. Not from the kind of disturbed people > who crash airplanes into buildings, but from people who would use such > an event to further erode our freedoms - those masters of demagoguery > who, while claiming to be the good guys, and in the name of defending > our country, our freedom, and our way of life, will try to take away > everything this country is supposed to be about. Even those with only > the best of intentions may severely jeopardize our liberty at a time > like this if they are not careful to give the freedom we tend to take > for granted the highest priority in considering any course of action. > > So I know that a hoard of voices will now be crying out for your > attention, trying to use this event to convince you that we should > take whatever course of action most benefits their own position. I > know that my voice is just a small one in this cacophony, and unless > you agree with my message and forward it far and wide, I will scarcely > be noticed. But I will speak my advice anyway, and hope it does some > good. All I have to say to you is this: > > Do not let your natural reactions of fear or anger help ANYONE to > further their short term political goals, or impose any "temporary" > measures. These are frightening and enraging times indeed, but it is > important to keep this simple truth firmly in mind: You cannot defend > freedom by reducing freedom. The people who try to tell you otherwise > are the ones who should frighten and anger you most. > > We all want security and justice, but we must to be careful about the > price we are willing to pay. If we allow these tragic events to lead > to a reduction of our freedom, then the bad guys win. > > --Sean Hastings > --New York, Sept 12, 2001 > --mailto:sean at havenco.com > > Please forward, summarize, quote, alter, or in any other way use this > text, in whole or part, as you choose. It is placed into the public > domain with no rights reserved or implied. > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . From morlockelloi at yahoo.com Wed Sep 12 18:58:10 2001 From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 18:58:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New flight rules In-Reply-To: <3BA0079D.73AF9660@semtex.com> Message-ID: <20010913015810.39218.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com> > Jeezus guys, get a clue. You can't pull the same stunt twice, whether > its a 'normal' hijacking > which turns out to be different (so much for passenger compliance..), or > the latest social-engineering virus trick. The rubes *do* learn. This is the end of "normal hijacking". They spoiled it for everyone. The first thing a "normal hijacker" has to do now is convince everyone that he is ... normal. I am not aware of any protocol that would ensure this. [ Maybe island states should offer their airports as receiving points for normal hijacking, for a fee that is. And hijacking can happen only on designated route portions, from which the plane can be diverted to a pre-defined NHTP (normal hijacking termination point) or it will be destroyed. Entering and leaving these segments will be announced over the aircraft's PA ("This is the first opportunity to normally hijack the aircraft. Please be advised that you have exactly 17 minutes to do so. If you have any questions our staff will be glad to assist you.") NHTPs will be filed with every flight plan and approved in advance. ] ===== end (of original message) Y-a*h*o-o (yes, they scan for this) spam follows: __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ From billstewart at att.com Wed Sep 12 17:11:22 2001 From: billstewart at att.com (Stewart, William C (Bill), BMSLS) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 19:11:22 -0500 Subject: SPOT infrared satellite image of Manhattan Message-ID: <6ABC063FB693C9428D67DABC931CD56B03494C66@ocsrs03.ugd.att.co m> Shows New York harbor, big plume of smoke and two visible fires. -----Original Message----- From: David Farber [mailto:dave at farber.net] Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 5:00 PM To: ip-sub-1 at majordomo.pobox.com Subject: IP: SPOT infrared satellite image of Manhattan >SPOT infrared satellite image of Manhattan, acquired on September 11 at >11:55 AM ET. Image may be freely reproduced with "CNES/SPOT Image 2001" >copyright attribution: > http://www.spot.com/home/news/NYC-091101.jpg For archives see: http://www.interesting-people.org/ From billstewart at att.com Wed Sep 12 17:11:22 2001 From: billstewart at att.com (Stewart, William C (Bill), BMSLS) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 19:11:22 -0500 Subject: SPOT infrared satellite image of Manhattan Message-ID: <6ABC063FB693C9428D67DABC931CD56B03494C66@ocsrs03.ugd.att.com> Shows New York harbor, big plume of smoke and two visible fires. -----Original Message----- From: David Farber [mailto:dave at farber.net] Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 5:00 PM To: ip-sub-1 at majordomo.pobox.com Subject: IP: SPOT infrared satellite image of Manhattan >SPOT infrared satellite image of Manhattan, acquired on September 11 at >11:55 AM ET. Image may be freely reproduced with "CNES/SPOT Image 2001" >copyright attribution: > http://www.spot.com/home/news/NYC-091101.jpg For archives see: http://www.interesting-people.org/ From ravage at ssz.com Wed Sep 12 17:18:07 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 19:18:07 -0500 (CDT) Subject: The tragedy in NYC (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: 12 Sep 2001 19:11:23 -0400 From: "Perry E. Metzger" To: cryptography at wasabisystems.com Subject: The tragedy in NYC [I sent this originally yesterday, but the, er, problems our mail server in downtown New York suffered for a while caused some delay. Another copy was published on Dave Farber's interesting people. Several people wrote me afterwards vilifying me. Ah well. The list is now running on a new machine in Virginia, which should be safe even as more buildings collapse and burn. --Perry] In the wake of the tragedy in NYC today, I was asked by someone if I didn't now agree that crypto was a munition. At the time, I thought that a friend of mine was likely dead. (I've since learned he escaped in time.) My answer then, when I thought I'd lost a friend, was the same as my answer now and the answer I've always had. Cryptography must remain freely available to all. In coming months, politicians will flail about looking for freedoms to eliminate to "curb the terrorist threat". They will see an opportunity to grandstand and enhance their careers, an opportunity to show they are "tough on terrorists". We must remember throughout that you cannot preserve freedom by eliminating it. The problem is not a lack of laws banning things. I know the pressure on everyone in Washington will be to "do something". Speaking as a New Yorker who dearly loves this city, who has felt deep shock throughout most of the day, watching the smoke still rising from the fires to the south of me, listening to the ambulances and police cars continuing to wail about me, let me say this: I do not want more laws passed in the name of defending my home. I do not want more freedoms eliminated to "preserve freedom". I do not want to trade my freedom for safety. Franklin has said far more eloquently than me why that is worthless. If you must do something, send out more investigators to find those responsible for this and bring them to justice. Pass no new laws. Take away no freedoms. Do not destroy the reason I live here to give me "safety". I'd rather die in a terrorist attack. -- Perry E. Metzger perry at piermont.com -- "Ask not what your country can force other people to do for you..." --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From premiomayor at univision.com Wed Sep 12 16:20:27 2001 From: premiomayor at univision.com (Trend Marketing) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 19:20:27 EDT Subject: USTED SE MERECE UNAS VACACIONES! Message-ID: <39001970.17.16496@mbox.surecom.com> This offer is intended only for opt in clients of Trend Marketing & Associates who live in Latin America and Spain; if you believe that you have received this by error or do not wish to receive future offers please respond to this e-mail with the subject line "REMOVE" Si usted no desea recibir ofertas en el futuro favor de responder a este e-mail con el sujeto "NO MAS" RESERVACION 60540832 CONTROL GNEM091301 ¡Felicidades! ¡Usted ha sido seleccionado! Basado en su estado social y profesional usted ha sido elegido para recibir un boleto para el siguiente paquete vacacional en la Florida con un fabuloso crucero por el Caribe para disfrutar con su familia. Usted puede disfrutar de este programa vacacional exótico cuando desee. Su boleto tiene una vigencia de doce meses. ¡Usted elige la fecha de su viaje! DREAMTIME TOURS INTERNATIONAL TRAVEL SERVICES tiene el orgullo de patrocinar este evento. Somos uno de los mayoristas de viajes más grandes de la Florida y el número uno del mercado hispano. Ubicado en Miami, Florida, DREAMTIME TOURS INTERNATIONAL ha hecho viajar más de 50,000 familias en los ultimos 9 años en las vacaciones de sus sueños. Nuestra licencia estatal de la Florida es el ST-22168 y sus vacaciónes están garantizadas 100%. Estamos haciendo esta oferta internacional solo al titular de este correo electrónico con el proposito de promover el turismo en la Florida. Esto no es una promoción para tiempo compartido, bienes raices ní "time share"sino una oferta legitima de vacaciones de uno de los mayores vendedores al por mayor de vacaciones de la Florida. Favor de imprimir este documento y tener listo el número de reservación que aparece arriba. Esta es una oferta limitada y los operadores están esperando su llamada en la linea especial para la mayoría de los países de las Americas 001-305-899-9766. Desde Colombia se marca el 0091-305-899-8889 y desde Paraguay se marca el 0021-305-899-8889. SUS VACACIONES DE LUJO INCLUYEN: 6 días y 5 noches de alojamiento en Puerto Plata, República Dominicana con todo incluído. Esto significa todos los entretenimientos, bebidas, comidas y deportes acuáticos están incluidos. Su lujoso alojamiento en Puerto Plata incluye playas privadas de arena blanca, programas para niños, discotecas, clubes, comidas estilo gourmet y muchísimo más. Usted también tendrá otros 6 días y 5 noches en la Florida distribuidos de la siguiente manera: 4 días y 3 noches en el mágico Orlando, Florida; sede de Disney®, Epcot Center®, Estudios MGM®, Estudios Universales® y el espectacular Animal Kingdom®. 3 días y 2 noches de alojamiento frente al mar en Fort Lauderdale, Florida patrocinada por la prestigiosa cadena de hoteles finos Ramada Plaza Resorts. Usted recibirá un talonario de cupones con descuentos de más de $500 para comidas, entretenimientos y atracciones en el área de Orlando. Mientras está en Fort Lauderdale recibirá el programa "VIP" en el Sawgrass Mills Mall con descuentos de hasta $1,500 en mercancía, comidas y servicios. Gratís el alquiler de un carro con millaje ilimitado durante su estadía en la Florida patrocinado por InterAmerican Rental Car o Trifty Rental Car. ¡Por reservar hoy día usted recibirá un boleto para cualquier crucero de Carnival en el Caribe! Existen algunas restricciones. Llame ahora mismo al 001-305-899-9766 Desde Colombia 0091-305-899-8889 Desde Paraguay 0021-305-899-8889 ¡Si esta ocupado siga llamando! Debido a la gran cantidad de llamadas que recibimos solo se permite una sola llamada por invitación. Lunes a Viernes 8:00 AM a 10:30 PM Sábados 9:00 AM a 5:00 PM (Hora de Miami) DREAMTIME TOURS está registrado en el estado de la Florida como mayorista de viajes. Registro número ST-22168. DREAMTIME TOURS le garantiza sus reservas a través de nuestro departamento reservaciones. TERMINOS Y CONDICIONES DREAMTIME TOURS es una agencia autorizada de reservaciones en los E.E.U.U. de todas las demás empresas arriba mencionadas y lleva a cabo el cumplimiento de este promoción de vacaciones. Nuestro éxito se debe a que nuestros clientes vuelven a viajar con nosotros una y otra vez. Esta oferta no se le ofrece al público en general. Queda bajo las leyes y regulaciones federales, estatales y locales. Esta oferta no está relacionada con ninguna oferta de tiempo compartido o "time share" ni con ninguna oferta de bienes raíces. El cumplimiento de esta oferta está garantizada por el departamento de reservaciones de DREAMTIME TOURS que está registrada como agencia de viajes en la Florida con el registro ST-22168. Todos los paquetes vacacionales para esta promoción exclusiva son para un mínimo de dos personas. A cada persona notificada se le ha asignado números de control y reservación. Ciertas restricciones pueden aplicar. Esto no es ninguna lotería, concurso o sorteo. ¡Se acepta una so! la! llamada para inscribirse! No se aceptan llamdas de terceros ni se le pueden dar detalles. Un hotel puede ser sustituido por otro de la misma clase si no hubiese disponibilidad. La oferta del coche de alquiler no incluye seguros, impuestos ní opciones adicionales. DREAMTIME TOURS INTERNATIONAL TRAVEL SERVICES 12000 Biscayne Blvd. Suite 202 Miami, Florida 33181 This offer is intended only for opt in clients of Trend Marketing & Associates who live in Latin America and Spain; if you believe that you have received this by error or do not wish to receive future offers please respond to this e-mail with the subject line "REMOVE" Si usted no desea recibir ofertas en el futuro favor de responder a este e-mail con el sujeto "NO MAS" © 2001 Derechos reservados de Trend Marketing & Associates, Inc -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 24228 bytes Desc: not available URL: From schear at lvcm.com Wed Sep 12 19:24:51 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 19:24:51 -0700 Subject: New FAA measures likely to fail as well In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010912160432.021652d0@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010912184303.035b4eb8@pop3.lvcm.com> [My wife worked for one of the major airlines for several years. The following is from conversations we had regarding airport security.] Knives The knife ban won't work against anyone with even a smidgen of metal detector knowledge. Anyone can purchase a razor sharp ceramic knife like this one http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:Rd6ExOvaDz8:www.smarthome.com/9126.html+ceramic+knife&hl=en Without millimeter wave body scanners enforcing this one will be difficult. Even advanced scanners may not detect objects secreted between butt cheeks or on the inside of thighs (especially if legs are fat or held together closely.) Guns Airline personnel will allow law enforcement agents, with proper forms, which are easily obtained, to board a flight with their firearms. Available fake badges, laminators and photo quality printers on home PCs allow anyone with the interest, law LE demeanor and general appearance to pose as a Fed. My wife raised concerns to her management that the gate people responsible for determining if a passenger claiming to be a LE agent was in fact an agent had no training to determine the authenticity of their credential. (Her supervisors listened, smiled and did nothing.) An FBI agent explained to her what she should look for in examining a bona fide FBI ID, but there are too many agencies accorded this privilege to make any simple training possible. A centralized data base, with authentication capability by gate agents, of LE personnel allowed to carry firearms aboard U.S. domestic routes is needed. Crew IDs Both uniforms and IDs have been forged in the past and in at least one case used for a hijacking. Authentication can and should be improved. Expectations The people entrusted with maintaining a safe air travel environment are minimum or low wage people with little training. Israel airline and security personnel are much better paid and well trained (days or weeks vs. hours in the U.S.) Isn't our safety worth more than minimum wage? steve From ffss111 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 12 19:44:34 2001 From: ffss111 at yahoo.com (ffss111 at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 19:44:34 Subject: Do You Know A Child That Needs To Be More Organized, Accountable and Responsible? Message-ID: <200109121334.SAA21363@ingeomin.gov.co> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4428 bytes Desc: not available URL: From decoy at iki.fi Wed Sep 12 09:59:15 2001 From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 19:59:15 +0300 (EEST) Subject: Manhattan Mid-Afternoon In-Reply-To: <3B9F8313.FF14E7DA@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Ken Brown wrote: >A friend of mine wonders if they had a Boeing flight simulator. >Apparently they would need to know how to disable the autopilot and do a >couple of other technobabble things a groundling like me doesn't >recognise. Nuh. That *is* something you can easily coerce the pilots to do. Just threaten, watch the switches being thrown, eliminate the pilot and go on from there. Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy, mailto:decoy at iki.fi, gsm: +358-50-5756111 student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front From baptista at pccf.net Wed Sep 12 17:06:14 2001 From: baptista at pccf.net (baptista at pccf.net) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:06:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MARTIAL LAW Cypherpunks and terrorism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Len Sassaman wrote: > I'll inevitably be accused of being cowardly or selfish for switching my > system over to middleman mode. To the cypherpunks making those > accusations, I ask: Do you run a remailer? your showing a level of concern which is understandable. but what i see is a simple fact. people are afraid of their governments - and we all know governments are run by monsters these days and few people will stand up to monsters. i do however find it very entertaining to watch US politicians speak on the issue. your political infrastructure is out of control and as a result anything significant can happen as a response to this unfortunate act. martial law is a definate possibility if this happens again. now the world is a very bad place. one thing i find insulting from all the newscasts is us politicians claiming that freedom and democracy have enemies - which is the ongoing retoric. the real question is why did this happen. or another question is why were their celebrations on the streets of china and most of the arab world. i don't think the people on those plains were enemies of freedom or democracy. people who have freedom, liberty, and democracy do not have to resort to suicide missions to get attention. people who resort to these methods have lost hope and have no other means of addressing thier concerns. according to the fbi there were 12 to 24 people in all involved. in my opinion they were lost soals who appointed themselves judge, jury and executioners. these people yesturday delivered a verdict - which in all amounted to the execution of 50,000 people. now that we know the verdict the only outstand question is what were the charges? why did these people do this? what was their motivation? so far i have not figured that one out. sure arabs are dancing in the street - their happy - poor arafat was doing penance today by giving blood. and i understand the japanese red army is also being blamed for this. but all these claims so far amount to little frills here and their to enhance the show. i have yet to receive a clear explaination on what drove these people to do this tragedy. regards joe -- The dot.GOD Registry, Limited http://www.dot-god.com/ From honig at sprynet.com Wed Sep 12 20:16:58 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:16:58 -0700 Subject: Manhattan Mid-Afternoon In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010911193032.00b1d378@mail.rebelbase.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010912201658.0096f620@pop.sprynet.com> At 08:08 PM 9/11/01 -0700, Lucky Green wrote about arming citizens & plane travellers. Would regular ammo trash the plane? Would you have to ask passengers to load up with nylon or frangible ammo for the plane trip? [In _Unintended Consequences_ nylon bullets are used for extreme nonpenetration purposes.] From casey.iverson at hushmail.com Wed Sep 12 20:27:06 2001 From: casey.iverson at hushmail.com (casey.iverson at hushmail.com) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:27:06 -0700 Subject: Bombings, Surveillance, and Free Societies Message-ID: <200109130327.f8D3R6t99215@mailserver1.hushmail.com> At 02:22 PM 9/12/01 , Tim May spouts: >Personally, while I feel sorry for the dead in Israel, I think anyone who >moves to a small desert state surrounded on all sides by Arabs who want >their land back is asking for trouble. Tim May is as sincere about his sorrow for the dead in Israel as Arafat and the Taliban are about the dead in NYC and DC. Sorry Tim, not all dead in Washington, only a couple of hundred. Well maybe next time. From alq at fbi.gov Wed Sep 12 20:31:17 2001 From: alq at fbi.gov (Alfred Qeada) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:31:17 -0700 Subject: The 4th Airliner Shot Down? Message-ID: <3BA02885.CCDCEF19@fbi.gov> At 11:29 PM 9/11/01 -0700, John Young wrote: > >We know from the Egypt air crash that some pilots are >cooperatively suicidal when their families are at risk. Lucky John, who has never known the depths which might lead men to suicide, expecting no martyrdom or message, just relief. May your struts never fold, your ties never sever. From measl at mfn.org Wed Sep 12 18:32:04 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:32:04 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [EMED-L] terrorism versus manifest destiny (fwd) Message-ID: -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:14:02 -0700 From: DOUGLAS RAGLAND Reply-To: EMED-L -- a list for emergency medicine practitioners. To: EMED-L at ITSSRV1.UCSF.EDU Subject: Re: [EMED-L] terrorism versus manifest destiny FYI The list members might be interested in the following incomplete historical list of US armed interventions around the world. Conspiciously absent from the list are the major conflicts that every US citizen should know (Civil war, WWI, WWII etc) Also conspiciously absent are the clandestine and covert operations sponsored by the US that would add substantially to the length of the list (and its significance, I ) I've drawn a number of conclusions from this list - I would be interested to know what you conclusions you draw from the list. Doug Ragland MD ------------------------------------------- 1775 - 1890: The Indian Wars - US versus Native (Indian) Tribes and Nations of North America 1800-1815: The Barbary Wars - US versus The Barbary States (Tripoli, Algiers & Morocco) 1819: Invasion of Spanish Florida - Andrew Jackson seized Florida from Spain. 1846-1848: Mexican-American War - The United States invaded Mexico and forced the Mexicans to cede the northern half of the country and also to give up any claim to Texas. 1800-1865: U.S. Slave Rebellions 1893: U.S. Intervention in Hawaiian Revolution 1898: The Spanish-American War 1898-1899: U.S. Intervention in Samoan Civil War - U.S. Intervention in Samoan Civil War with U.S. and British Naval Bombardment of Samoa --A resumption of past civil wars in which Samoan chief Mataafa seized power following the death of his rival, King Malietoa Laupepa, who had defeated him in the last Samoan Civil War (1893-1894). Fighting ensued, which was complicated by the long-standing rivalry between the U.S., Britain and Germany for de facto control over the Samoan Islands. On March 15, 1899, warships of the American and British Navies bombarded the Samoan city of Apia to intimidate the reigning Samoan king, who was allied with the Germans. An Anglo-American landing force took control of Apia, but were not able to pacify the interior. All sides agreed to cease fighting on May 13, 1899. Later that year, the three Western nations signed a treaty dividing Samoa between them. This whole conflict was part of a wider Samoan civil war. 1899-1902: U.S.-Philippine War 1900: Boxer Rebellion - US versus the "Boxers" - Also involved Britain, France, Germany, Russia, Japan, Italy, Austria-Hungary against "Boxer" rebels in China as well as the Chinese government. 1901-1913: The Moro Wars - Guerilla warfare against U.S. forces by the Moro Muslims of the southern Philippines. 1903: U.S. Intervention in Panamanian Revolution - The U.S. landed troops in Panama to prevent Columbia from crushing the separatist Panamanian government. 1909-1933: The Banana Wars - A series of U.S. interventions in various Central American and Caribbean countries. 1914: U.S. Occupation of Vera Cruz Mexico 1916-1917: Pershing's Raid Into Mexico - After Mexican rebel Pancho Villa attacked a U.S. town, General Pershing pursued him across the border. 1919-1921: Allied Intervention in Russian Civil War US versus Russian Bolshevik (Soviet) Government 1956-1975: Second Indochina War 1958: U.S. Intervention in Lebanon 1960?-1975: Laotian Civil War 1964-1973: Vietnam War 1970-1975: Cambodian Civil War 1965: Dominican Intervention 1975 (May 15): The Mayaguez Rescue Operation - US versus Khmer Rouge Guerrillas (the new government of Cambodia) 1980 (April 25): Iranian Hostage Rescue "Desert One" or "Operation Eagle Claw" 1980-1988: First Persian Gulf War - The U.S. gave logistical and intelligence information to Iraq in its war against Iran. 1981, 1986: U.S. Libya Conflict 1982-1984: U.S. Intervention in Lebanon - US versus Syria & Various Muslim and Leftist Lebanese Militias 1983: U.S. Invasion of Grenada 1987-1988: The Tanker War aka "Operation Earnest Will" - US versus Iran - The U.S. provided naval protection for Kuwaiti oil tankers in the Persian Gulf. This led to multiple clashes with the Iranian military. 1989: U.S. Invasion of Panama 1991: Second Persian Gulf War 1991 - PRESENT: U.S.-Iraq Conflict 1992-1994: U.S. Intervention in Somalia US versus Various Somali Militias 1994: U.S. Occupation of Haiti August, 1998: U.S. Embassy bombings and strikes on Afghanistan and Sudan (The bin Laden War) - The embassy bombings in August, 1998 by Osama bin Laden caused hundreds of deaths in Kenya and Tanzania. The U.S. retaliated by launching Tomahawk Cruise Missiles at suspected terrorist targets in Afghanistan and Sudan. The violence has also involved Kenya, Tanzania, Sudan and Afghanistan. To unsubscribe, send the command "SIGNOFF EMED-L" to LISTSERV at ITSSRV1.UCSF.EDU From alq at fbi.gov Wed Sep 12 20:46:45 2001 From: alq at fbi.gov (Alfred Qeada) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:46:45 -0700 Subject: Manhattan Mid-Afternoon Message-ID: <3BA02C24.837FAED3@fbi.gov> At 12:33 AM 9/12/01 -0400, Sunder wrote: >I'd still fucking rush them if I had been there. If anything it would >wake everyone else up to do the same. No, you *wouldn't* have *before* ---you'd expect to land and hang out for a while. Rather exotic for an American, but it happens. But now, of course, there'd be fucking entrails on the windows if a few swarthies pulled that now in a plane full of Quaker girl scouts. .... Nuke Yemen but don't treat Palestinian arabs like American Indians... From nobody at dizum.com Wed Sep 12 11:50:17 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:50:17 +0200 (CEST) Subject: mix patches for OpenBSD (was Re: [Remops] Re: FC: Anonymous remailer op offline) Message-ID: <195e8a5fa1a74597eef443ef74b0d07c@dizum.com> Are one or both of these still necessary? ----- CUT HERE ------------ Mixmaster 2.9b23 still searches for opensslv.h in a nonexistent /usr/include/ssl/openssl directory on OpenBSD 2.6 and 2.7. The patch to the Install routine below hopefully fixes the hardcoded directory in a manner that does not break on other OSes. Also, OpenBSD's OpenSSL installation lacks the patented IDEA routines. Copy OpenSSL's i_cbc.c, i_cfb64.c, i_skey.c, idea.h, and idea_lcl.h to Src. The patch to the Makefile.in below adds them to the build. *** Install.orig Thu Mar 16 09:34:02 2000 --- Install Thu Jun 29 16:39:01 2000 *************** *** 383,389 **** opensslinfo="Please get OpenSSL 0.9.4 from http://www.openssl.org/" LIBDIR=/usr/local/ssl/lib ! INCDIR="/usr/include /usr/include/ssl /usr/lib/ssl/include /usr/local/ssl/include" SRCDIR="openssl*" if [ "$system" = win32 ] --- 383,389 ---- opensslinfo="Please get OpenSSL 0.9.4 from http://www.openssl.org/" LIBDIR=/usr/local/ssl/lib ! INCDIR="/usr/include /usr/include/ssl /usr/include/ssl/openssl /usr/lib/ssl/include /usr/local/ssl/include" SRCDIR="openssl*" if [ "$system" = win32 ] *************** *** 421,429 **** fi # Find the OpenSSL version header ! if [ -f $INCDIR/openssl/opensslv.h ] then ! version=`grep 'SSL.*_VERSION_NUMBER.*0x' $INCDIR/openssl/opensslv.h | sed 's/.*0x0*//;s/[ ].*//;s/L$//'` fi if [ "$version" = "" ] then --- 421,429 ---- fi # Find the OpenSSL version header ! if [ -f $INCDIR/opensslv.h ] then ! version=`grep 'SSL.*_VERSION_NUMBER.*0x' $INCDIR/opensslv.h | sed 's/.*0x0*//;s/[ ].*//;s/L$//'` fi if [ "$version" = "" ] then *** Src/Makefile.in.orig Thu Mar 16 09:34:02 2000 --- Src/Makefile.in Thu Jun 29 16:34:35 2000 *************** *** 23,29 **** RANLIB = ranlib #MAKE = make ! OBJ = mix.o rem.o rem1.o rem2.o rem3.o chain.o chain1.o chain2.o chain3.o nym.o pgp.o pgpdb.o pgpdata.o pgpget.o pgpcreat.o pool.o mail.o rfc822.o mime.o keymgt.o compress.o stats.o crypto.o random.o util.o buffers.o MIXOBJ = rndseed.o menu.o menusend.o menunym.o menuutil.o NOMENUOBJ = rndseed.o dummy.o --- 23,29 ---- RANLIB = ranlib #MAKE = make ! OBJ = mix.o rem.o rem1.o rem2.o rem3.o chain.o chain1.o chain2.o chain3.o nym.o pgp.o pgpdb.o pgpdata.o pgpget.o pgpcreat.o pool.o mail.o rfc822.o mime.o keymgt.o compress.o stats.o crypto.o random.o util.o buffers.o i_cfb64.o i_skey.o i_cbc.o MIXOBJ = rndseed.o menu.o menusend.o menunym.o menuutil.o NOMENUOBJ = rndseed.o dummy.o ----- CUT HERE ------------ OpenSSL versions are actually hexadecimal numbers, though in the past we have been OK using them as decimals for comparison, at least in release versions. Now, we are using them as hexadecimal numbers to encode beta vs final status. This breaks Mixmaster 2.9's Install script. The patch below fixes the version comparison so it should work with future OpenSSL versions as well. /* Numeric release version identifier: * MMNNFFPPS: major minor fix patch status * The status nibble has one of the values 0 for development, 1 to e for betas * 1 to 14, and f for release. The patch level is exactly that. * For example: * 0.9.3-dev 0x00903000 * 0.9.3-beta1 0x00903001 * 0.9.3-beta2-dev 0x00903002 * 0.9.3-beta2 0x00903002 (same as ...beta2-dev) * 0.9.3 0x0090300f * 0.9.3a 0x0090301f * 0.9.4 0x0090400f * 1.2.3z 0x102031af * * For continuity reasons (because 0.9.5 is already out, and is coded * 0x00905100), between 0.9.5 and 0.9.6 the coding of the patch level * part is slightly different, by setting the highest bit. This means * that 0.9.5a looks like this: 0x0090581f. At 0.9.6, we can start * with 0x0090600S... * * (Prior to 0.9.3-dev a different scheme was used: 0.9.2b is 0x0922.) * (Prior to 0.9.5a beta1, a different scheme was used: MMNNFFRBB for * major minor fix final patch/beta) */ *** Install.orig Thu Mar 16 09:34:02 2000 --- Install Thu Jun 29 15:41:00 2000 *************** *** 383,385 **** ! opensslinfo="Please get OpenSSL 0.9.4 from http://www.openssl.org/" LIBDIR=/usr/local/ssl/lib --- 383,385 ---- ! opensslinfo="Please get OpenSSL 0.9.4 or 0.9.5a final from http://www.openssl.org/" LIBDIR=/usr/local/ssl/lib *************** *** 436,438 **** fi ! elif [ "$version" -lt "920" ] then --- 436,438 ---- fi ! elif [ "16#$version" -lt "16#0920" ] then *************** *** 441,443 **** exit 1 ! elif [ "$version" -lt "903100" ] then --- 441,443 ---- exit 1 ! elif [ "16#$version" -lt "16#00903100" ] then *************** *** 446,448 **** exit 1 ! elif [ "$version" -gt "906000" ] then --- 446,448 ---- exit 1 ! elif [ "16#$version" -gt "16#00906000" ] then From honig at sprynet.com Wed Sep 12 21:05:05 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:05:05 -0700 Subject: Manhattan Mid-Afternoon In-Reply-To: <3B9E9D9D.11308.C4EC8A4@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010911215648.02ed0580@mail.rebelbase.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010912210505.0097a6b0@pop.sprynet.com> At 11:27 PM 9/11/01 -0700, Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote: >I don't know if having a plane load of armed angry drunks crammed >into inadequate seating with surly cabin staff is a viable solution. Armed folks shouldn't drink, drunk folks ought not to touch their arms. If the hijackers were drunk, they probably wouldn't have succeeded. From declan at well.com Wed Sep 12 18:08:48 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:08:48 -0400 Subject: Cypherpunks and terrorism In-Reply-To: ; from nobody@dizum.com on Thu, Sep 13, 2001 at 02:20:09AM +0200 References: Message-ID: <20010912210848.A4779@cluebot.com> On Thu, Sep 13, 2001 at 02:20:09AM +0200, Nomen Nescio wrote: > There are two contrasting forces at the heart of the cypherpunk > philosophy, well exemplified by the two co-founders, and their messages > posted today show the difference well. > > The dark anger of May versus the bright hope of Hughes. Make your choice. It is beyond silly to talk about a mailing list that has probably had tens of thousands of subscribers over its lifetime as having only two primary philosophies of substance. In fact, the "dark anger" we're likely to see will grace the tip of Tomahawk and other missiles en route to their targets. -Declan From honig at sprynet.com Wed Sep 12 21:13:16 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:13:16 -0700 Subject: Manhattan Mid-Afternoon In-Reply-To: <3B9F7DB8.79C279D4@ameritech.net> References: <3B9E9D9D.11308.C4EC8A4@localhost> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010912211316.00964d10@pop.sprynet.com> At 10:22 AM 9/12/01 -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote: > What would be so hard about getting past security if they used plastic >knives -- those zytel daggers sold all over the place would be pretty damn >effective. Fortunately the radio station I heard this AM found ceramic *kitchen* knives as their example, not SoF-macho combat folders. From honig at sprynet.com Wed Sep 12 21:34:34 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:34:34 -0700 Subject: Cypherpunks and terrorism In-Reply-To: <4be50f9bc3262e18de859461637c7cfe@dizum.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010912213434.00965570@pop.sprynet.com> At 06:00 PM 9/12/01 +0200, Nomen Nescio wrote: >The point is, cypherpunks [metalsmiths] must face and accept the responsibility for >the harm their technologies can cause, as they should also feel pride >in the positive effects. And they must be able to show, at least to >themselves, that the positives outweigh the negatives. From mnorton at cavern.uark.edu Wed Sep 12 19:45:22 2001 From: mnorton at cavern.uark.edu (Mac Norton) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:45:22 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Bombings, Surveillance, and Free Societies In-Reply-To: <200109121822.f8CIMPf08847@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Tim May wrote: > lawyers point out to me that such prior restraints will never fly. Well, > how has the First Amendment stopped the government from restricting > what I > can say about medicine, what abortion advice I can give, the "dirty > words" > I choose to use, the supposedly libelous and slanderous things I can say, > etc.? Granted, these are not cases of prior restraint, but of actions > taken > after the fact, via criminal and civil actions. Not much difference so > far > as I can see.) > Lotta differences here which I know you're aware of, but don't seem to choose to remember at the moment. In the first place, prior restraint does have its after-the-fact-restraint analog in the "chilling effect" doctrine--not it's not absolute, as prior restraint law almost is, but it usually goes to accomplish the same purpose. Obscenity is not protected speech, so the 1A's irrelevant there, as far as the courts go and as far as your argument goes, because you're arguing about what the law might do. The same is true of libel and slander, if you can find any such thing under today's prevailing 1a jurisprudence. They're pretty few and far between torts in the last thirty years. Your examples about drugs and abortion are not examles of prohibited speech but of compelled speech, which is another subject altogether, though one which I would agree has its constitutional issues as well, but not the ones you have in mind above: Unless you advocate a right to commit fraud under the First Amendment, which I have not previously heard you do. There will be a repressive response by some--Trent Lott is already trashing civil liberties, I shit you not, as of today, as having to take a second place to security needs in ths "war"--but the thing to do is resist this kind of chuck-headed thinking with the First Amendment. And the Fifth, and the Fourth. They usually work, so give them a chance first. MacN From pcw at flyzone.com Wed Sep 12 18:56:10 2001 From: pcw at flyzone.com (Peter Wayner) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:56:10 -0400 Subject: An assault on liberty? Message-ID: I realize that many will use this event as an excuse for many political agendas, but I think it's important that we think through exactly what happened. It doesn't seem like it was an assault on liberty or a misuse of the liberties we have. Most people can't fly planes. The learning process is long and the licensing requirements are many. Flying a 757 is even more restricted by both cost and licensing requirements. It's not a liberty like walking around the streets or speaking one's mind. It doesn't seem to me that this attack had anything to do with liberty. It's not like someone abused the right to bear arms by shooting someone, it's not like someone abused the right to speak freely by libeling someone, it's not like someone abused the right to drink alcohol by plowing into a school bus after drinking too much. These guys were unauthorized to have knives, they were unauthorized to have bombs, they were unauthorized to fly 757s, they were probably unauthorized to be in the country. Yet they did all of these despite the controls. The hard lesson is that controls don't always work. Licensing requirements, security checkpoints, and armed guards fail. It's sad, but there's no physical law like gravity that we can depend upon to keep ourselves safe. If you ask me, the biggest danger is that we'll add more ineffective security measures in the hopes of doing something. And the real problem is the controls may never be enough to keep us safe. -Peter From baptista at pccf.net Wed Sep 12 18:57:00 2001 From: baptista at pccf.net (!Dr. Joe Baptista) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:57:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MARTIAL LAW Cypherpunks and terrorism In-Reply-To: <20010912224722.A6221@cluebot.com> Message-ID: That's not an answer - thats an interview with little details. may i suggest the answer is buried somewhere in the faces of the happy people dancing in palestine and other parts of the world. regards joe On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > On Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 08:06:14PM -0400, baptista at pccf.net wrote: > > so far i have not figured that one out. sure arabs are dancing in the > > street - their happy - poor arafat was doing penance today by giving > > blood. and i understand the japanese red army is also being blamed for > > this. but all these claims so far amount to little frills here and their > > to enhance the show. i have yet to receive a clear explaination on what > > drove these people to do this tragedy. > > You appear to be making the mistake of listening to American broadcast > media, and expecting it to tell you that answer, rather than looking > for the answer yourself. > > http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/dailynews/terror_980609.html > > -Declan > -- Joe Baptista The dot.GOD Registry, Limited The Executive Plaza, Suite 908 150 West 51st Street Tel: 1 (208) 330-4173 Manhattan Island NYC 10019 USA Fax: 1 (208) 293-9773 From attila at hun.org Wed Sep 12 15:01:37 2001 From: attila at hun.org (attila!) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 22:01:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: What George Should Have Said Message-ID: <20010912220137.6158B3465A@hun.org> What George should have said: My Heavenly Father, Please forgive me for protecting thy people. I ask this in the name of thy beloved Son, Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior Amen FIRE! From schear at lvcm.com Wed Sep 12 22:28:24 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 22:28:24 -0700 Subject: J. Neil Schulman On I can't take it anymore .... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010912222341.035b89f0@pop3.lvcm.com> "J. Neil Schulman" wrote: >If you disarm the people -- if you make them give up their guns when >they get on a plane, go into a post office, get taken out to the ball >game -- then there will never be enough police officers to go around >when the bad guys decide to strike, without warning, at a time and place >of their own choosing. > >The jetliners that took down the World Trade Center, a city of 50,000 >daytime inhabitants, and that exploded into the very military >headquarters of the world's only remaining superpower, were taken over >by a few thugs with boxcutters. > >If the airline pilots had guns this couldn't have happened. > >If the flight attendants had guns this couldn't have happened. > >If local police officers who fly were allowed to carry their guns with >them, warned only to switch to frangible ammunition, this couldn't have >happened. But they are. On U.S. domestic flights they have merely to present themselves and acceptable credentials (which BTW the airline personnel are poorly trained to authenticate) and state in a form that they are traveling for LE purposes. There are other formalities that are followed, but overall they are not restricted from carrying. steve From declan at well.com Wed Sep 12 19:47:22 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 22:47:22 -0400 Subject: MARTIAL LAW Cypherpunks and terrorism In-Reply-To: ; from baptista@pccf.net on Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 08:06:14PM -0400 References: Message-ID: <20010912224722.A6221@cluebot.com> On Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 08:06:14PM -0400, baptista at pccf.net wrote: > so far i have not figured that one out. sure arabs are dancing in the > street - their happy - poor arafat was doing penance today by giving > blood. and i understand the japanese red army is also being blamed for > this. but all these claims so far amount to little frills here and their > to enhance the show. i have yet to receive a clear explaination on what > drove these people to do this tragedy. You appear to be making the mistake of listening to American broadcast media, and expecting it to tell you that answer, rather than looking for the answer yourself. http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/dailynews/terror_980609.html -Declan From joaobarreiras at yahoo.com Wed Sep 12 14:54:11 2001 From: joaobarreiras at yahoo.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jo=E3o=20Barreiras?=) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 22:54:11 +0100 Subject: Teoria 2 Message-ID: Hi! How are you? I send you this file in order to have your advice See you later. Thanks From FrogRemailer at lne.com Wed Sep 12 16:30:36 2001 From: FrogRemailer at lne.com (Frog2) Date: 12 Sep 2001 23:30:36 -0000 Subject: Basking in the Glow of Terror Message-ID: (Some commentary on various silliness to hit the list in the wake of the terrorists attacks on the 11th). Assertion: "If only all airline passengers could be armed this never would have happened." This is bunk. All it takes is an AD to kill 300+ people on a airplane at 35,000 feet. I've been to several concealed permit classes. Based on the people I have encountered passing those courses, I think I'll pass on that idea. However, the Sky Marshall program was canceled long ago and the events of September 11th make me wonder why. I suspect that would have been far more effective, and far less dangerous, than permitting all airline passengers to carry loaded firearms aboard commercial airline flights. Americans are simply not responsible enough to carry firearms on Commercial flights. Hell, I don't think any Swiss or Germans are either now that I consider it. That's just folly and I am somewhat surprised to hear usually sage list members make this case and even blame anti-gun legislators of note for the incident. Even if 90% of people are totally responsible that puts 30 irresponsible people on a full flight. If 10% of those people carry, (3 people or 1% of the total) that's too much. More than that, it's crazy. Any discharge in a plane is a big deal. Sky Marshalls used special low penetration low velocity ammo and are otherwise trained to minimize collateral damage if they discharge firearms in an aircraft. That's far too much to expect from most American gun owners. Face fact. Assertion: "This wasn't the product of a expensive, long term coordinated effort." "This attack could have been pulled off by a small group of perhaps 15 people for almost no money." "It could have been a tiny cadre of eight or twelve people with no more money than to buy some plane tickets. There is no reason a group could not organize such a project with a week's notice once you know airport security is going to let you pass with pocket knifes and cardboard box cutters." "We will find these terrorists were mostly lucky, not skilled." Nonsense. It almost certain that there were 8 direct field operatives and 12 indirect field operatives involved in the attack (at least two for each plane: one to fly and one to hold the passengers at bay) plus support personnel. It's possible that only 4 of these were prepared to die (and that the non-pilot hijacker didn't know that the hijacking would end up as a suicide attack). Given that CNN is reporting a fragment rumor that the passengers might have overheard the terrorist's conversation which included a discussion of the Capital as a target it sounds like both terrorists (assuming they didn't also have a sleeper or two among the passangers just watching, which is a typical hijacking strategy) on that flight were prepared to die. The chances of finding 8 (or even 4) multi-engine licensed (or at least competent) Muslim (as seems to be the case) or other religious zealots willing to commit suicide for a cause- and maintaining that intention for many many months (more on this below)- is probably _vanishingly_ small. These people must have a better than even chance of living in the United States for a long period and blending in for a long period. Such persons would have to be _created_, rather than found and recruited. In fact, it seems that this is the case since the FBI has (as of this writing) taken the records of individuals who attended months of flight school in Florida (At "Flight Safety International"). That's about $20,000 in flight training over the course of several months. Two of the current suspects already had single engine licenses and were paying $1400.00 a month since June 10th, 2000 for rent in Florida. $20,000 in lease payments per house for two houses over 15 months. Apparently initial multi-engine training was followed up with jet training elsewhere- more costs there, perhaps another $20,000 for that pair. That means you have to house these people and their families (since apparently families were present) under a reliable and passable cover in the United States during that period. You have to feed them, give them whatever other supplies required to get them to blend in. This is small town Florida. People there are nosey and spend a lot of time in their neighbor's busines. They watch each other's houses. They have nothing better to do. Therefore you have to provide for their security, their camouflage. They have to blend in well. Appear to be middle class. Harmless. Have a dog. Furniture. Kids in school. They have to be able to withstand any check from a moving vehicle violation, pass flight certification, medical checks, insurance payments, credit checks by banks, realtors, credit card companies, avoid any kind of altercation that might attract police scrutiny and have some kind of plausible visa in the United States. That's not cheap. Not at all. I've outlined at least $100,000 (which is majorly conservative I believe- most field operatives cost more in terms of support) in just the one pair who appears to have hijacked one of the Boston flights. No one who hasn't run a field operation should be commenting on how much one costs with any guise of authority. Period. Consider the planning required: These flights were hijacked within 30-50 minutes of each other. Cross country- but not international- flights were selected and therefore gave the terrorists the best mix of full fuel tanks, large plane size and lowest security scrutiny. The plane type had a major impact on the type of flight skills required and hence means that equipment would have been considered as a factor- and these equipment selections would have to be researched over time for a given flight. This was true of all four flights. That's not an accident. Just the process of flight selection, which doubtlessly required research into everything from on- time departure history to flight time to flight path to air traffic control procedure, is a complex one. It's no accident that flights for "American" and "United" were selected- both for political reasons (what carriers aside from perhaps "US Air" could be more a symbol of America?) and for scheduling and equipment selection. None of the four hijacked pilots started squawking 7600 on transponders- which is generally triggered with a panic switch- indicating that the terrorists probably had specific knowledge of where this switch was in the given aircraft type and prevented the pilot from triggering it. Weather at the target sites is a major factor- fog, rain or even heavy smog could easily have foiled the attack. That had to be factored in timing. Weather anywhere on the Easy coast or Midwest even the West might have impact flight path, or flight cancellation. One wonders if some of the weather delays last month and last week might not have altered the timing of the attack- these kinds of operations rarely go off without a hitch on the first try. This theory is supported by the fact that two of the suspects extended their lease for two extra weeks right before the hijackings. Since four attacks were coordiated on the same day there must have been some provision for last minute cancellation, to prevent one cell or another from launching solo. Photo intelligence had to have been collected. It seems also clear that the targets were scheduled to coincide with rush-hour or just post rush-hour impacts for maximum effect. The coordination of "arrival" times of the planes was amazingly accomplished. It seems clear that primary and secondary targets were selected- in the case of the Pentagon attack it seems that the Pentagon was a secondary target. Still impressive because the Pentagon is Class B airspace- as restricted as it gets. Two planes were sent after each macro target. "Two is one and one is none." The World Trade Center was doubtlessly selected partially because it didn't come down after the first attack, and perhaps partially because of the particular construction of the WTC that might make it more vulnerable to the attack. Anyone who knows anything about flying multiengine planes will recognize that at least the second strike on the WTC was an impressive bit of flying. It was not an unskilled, inexperienced pilot who accomplished that. There is little doubt that "trial runs" were done, that the terrorists took the targeted flights as normal passengers themselves before actually executing the operation. Almost all the flights were taken within 20-40 minutes of takeoff. Clearly, this was planned based on the patterns of operation of the flights. The result: 100% of the executed hijacking attempts were successful- any aborts were done so far without detection which is equally remarkable either because there were no aborted attempts or the aborts were done so stealthily. 75% of the planes hit a primary or secondary target. This was not luck. Period. Too much went too perfectly in four entirely separate field operations. That is a remarkable. Very remarkable. Anyone who has actually conducted any type of hostile territory field operation will realize that it was meticulous skill and the result of substantial planning- not luck. Period. "Air Force One was a target." These terrorists were far too sophisticated to really believe they could hit Air Force One. It may have been a target of opportunity but I tend to doubt this. Too much research went into that attack to try and hit a entirely unpredictable and very highly mobile target with the level of protection that Air Force One enjoys. These terrorists were NOT stupid. Predicting the flight path and schedule of the plane without radar or other real-time intelligence is effectively impossible. Soft, stationary targets were picked and target selection was reconsidered in real-time at least in the case of the Pentagon strike. That's not accident. That's careful planning. Assertion: "The overt sophistication of this attack was such that I have a hard time believing the perps would leave so many obvious clues behind without intending to." These are suicide attacks. Why do they care what clues they leave? I have no doubt that the neophytes and the wanna-be's who have seen the movie "Air Force One" or read "Debt of Honor" 6 times, perhaps even some politicos with agendas, will continue to muddy the water with dense speculation cast as fact. Try to think for yourself, people. Don't get caught in funeral hype. Duh. From freematt at coil.com Wed Sep 12 21:02:29 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 00:02:29 -0400 Subject: J. Neil Schulman On I can't take it anymore .... Message-ID: From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Thu Sep 13 03:06:12 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 00:06:12 -1000 Subject: low tech, high concept Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010913000057.01c6fac0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> For those who prattle about massive planning for this attack on those Way Too Crumbly buildings: Low tech High concept attack. You could use Microsoft Flight sim 2 to learn how to fly a 767. I have a plastic knife made by Glock that is very sharp. You could use the internet and Travelocity .com to book the appropriately flights. I think that it was executed very well. My hats off to who ever did this, but in my other hand is my 1911. There is one brain behind all this. Find it and barbecue it on skewers, along with whoever and whatever fosters its existence. Reese --------------520B513E8836F00508FD7EF1-- From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Thu Sep 13 03:06:12 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 00:06:12 -1000 Subject: low tech, high concept Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010913000057.01c6fac0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> For those who prattle about massive planning for this attack on those Way Too Crumbly buildings: Low tech High concept attack. You could use Microsoft Flight sim 2 to learn how to fly a 767. I have a plastic knife made by Glock that is very sharp. You could use the internet and Travelocity .com to book the appropriately flights. I think that it was executed very well. My hats off to who ever did this, but in my other hand is my 1911. There is one brain behind all this. Find it and barbecue it on skewers, along with whoever and whatever fosters its existence. Reese From goodell at mediaone.net Wed Sep 12 21:23:53 2001 From: goodell at mediaone.net (Howie Goodell) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 00:23:53 -0400 Subject: Squaring the Libertarian Circle Message-ID: <3BA034D9.C077B247@mediaone.net> (sorry if this repeats; I posted it yesterday but didn't see it.) Yesterday's terrorist attacks could easily result in the greatest assaults on freedom and privacy in America since McCarthyism. However they also represent an opportunity. My interest in crypto dates to David Chaum's August 1992 _Scientific American_ article, "Achieving Electronic Privacy". In it he offered a choice between two patterns in which to pour the concrete of digital society: base it on identifying everyone, or on anonymous crypto credentials using his blind signature algorithm. The first pattern is more obvious but destroys privacy and freedom; the second can offer the same benefits while enhancing them. Since 1992 we have traveled far down the first path, and yesterday's events may ratchet us many steps further unless we offer a convincing alternative. It is simple: yes, we could make our society much safer from terrorism by giving police Gestapo surveillance authority, but Americans will not tolerate it: you will end up with some compromise that is only half-secure (as well as half-free.) Here are protocols for much better security. They involve private information, but people will accept them because they require the minimum loss of privacy. What should we propose? This group may be the world's best source. Better think fast, though; so we can offer them widely before alternatives are rammed down our throats. A few ideas to get the ball rolling: Active privacy protection: Collect the information a zealous G-man or Gestapo craves - fingerprints, DNA, dossier, phone logs, etc., but encrypt and untraceably divide it through remailers in locations chosen randomly by input from me and those collecting it. As long as I keep regularly anonymously authenticating myself, the pieces can neither be located to destroy or compromise them, or reunited. If my transmissions stop for some period, say because I blew myself up in a suicide attack, the different providers send their pieces to the authorities and the game is up. I can assign a digital Power of Attorney or inheritance for others to maintain my privacy when I can't, but, if a grand jury investigating the plane I hijacked publicly and legally indicts or subpoenas me (or the alias under which I bought my plane ticket), they can broadcast a code that retrieves some or all the data. However their actual locations are unknown: if I set it up that way, after some interval they also send it to my lawyer, a selection of newspapers, etc. Un-auditable taps: Record full taps of all telephone and email conversations. Encrypt with multiple keys and/or divide the bits and store with redundancy and active privacy protection in multiple locations through remailers, as before. The conversation may only continue while the recording is anonymously proven to be occurring. During the statutory storage period, the providers anonymously check one another, and regenerate in a new randomly chosen location if one provider disappears. On the statutory expiration date, all the pieces do. Watchdog timer: Like the processor in a control system, the computers of a jet require regular interaction with their assigned, authenticated, and conscious pilot. Otherwise they announce his incapacity to the world, and hand themselves over to remote control from an authenticated ground controller. (Not necessarily blinded, but included because topical.) Also, I have a few more related older ideas on my website below. Good luck! Howie Goodell -- Howie Goodell hgoodell at cs.uml.edu Pr SW Eng, WearLogic Sc.D. Cand HCI Res Grp CS Dept U Massachussets Lowell http://people.ne.mediaone.net/goodell/howie Dying is soooo 20th-century! http://www.cryonics.org From suonpaa at iki.fi Wed Sep 12 14:49:26 2001 From: suonpaa at iki.fi (Samuli Suonpaa) Date: 13 Sep 2001 00:49:26 +0300 Subject: Manhattan Mid-Afternoon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87u1y8dqqh.fsf@puck.erasmus.jurri.net> Peter Trei wrote: > Bill Stewart[SMTP:bill.stewart at pobox.com] wrote >> And even then, Swedish president Palme was assassinated some years >> ago. [...] > He was far from merely a Swedish president. Quite true. He was Swedish prime-minister, there is no president in _Kingdom_ of Sweden. But I do agree with you in that what happened to Palme is more accurately characterized as an assassination, not as a terrorist act. Suonpää... From declan at well.com Wed Sep 12 21:57:42 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 00:57:42 -0400 Subject: MARTIAL LAW Cypherpunks and terrorism In-Reply-To: References: <20010912224722.A6221@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010913005649.020596f0@mail.well.com> At 09:57 PM 9/12/01 -0400, !Dr. Joe Baptista wrote: >That's not an answer - thats an interview with little details. If you look at the links from that page, you'll see it's actually an extraordinary lengthy interview that details bin Ladin's "demands." Basic searches will turn up far more information; my point was that information is out there and people should not be expect to be fed it. -Declan From rachapman at acninc.net Thu Sep 13 01:04:27 2001 From: rachapman at acninc.net (R.A.Chapman) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 01:04:27 -0700 Subject: This is a pleasant surprise!!! 100K103A2 Message-ID: <2823200194138427900@c565296-a> "This is a pleasant surprise "!!! Simply for accepting our FREE invitation to see this opportunity work for YOU, we'll "lock in" your position and EVERYONE who signs up AFTER you, signs up UNDER you!! You can take your time, and review all the benefits of your free membership, because frankly, there are too many remarkable benefits to be able to understand them all at a glance. For an example my sponsor's sponsor is earning $8,000.00 a month guaranteed income, and in a year, she has earned a life-time income!! I'm now earning a guaranteed income, and very soon, you can also!! Why are we doing this? 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Regards, R.A.Chapman ____________________________________________________________________ If you choose not to receive info from us, send us an email, and your wishes will be honored. mailto:RAChapman at ACNInc.net?subject=Please_Remove100K103A2 and include your "email address(es)" in the text... _____________________________________________________________________ From Informative.Communication at toad.com Wed Sep 12 14:11:55 2001 From: Informative.Communication at toad.com (Informative.Communication at toad.com) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 01:11:55 +0400 Subject: . Message-ID: <200109122221.PAA16629@toad.com> Здравствуйте! Подробную информацию по вопросу трудоустройства на норвежские нефтяные платформы вы получите по адресу http://www.info-com.org Это сообщение послано роботом, поэтому на него не нужно отвечать. Если вы будете иметь какие-либо вопросы после посещения нашего сайта, пожалуйста пишите на этот адрес: support at info-com.org Техническая поддержка Info-Com. http://www.info-com.org Беларуско-Норвежский информационный центр Informative Communication. ----- Original Message ----- From: Владимир Пятин To: Informative Communication Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2001 12:23 AM Subject: Запрос о трудоустройстве в Норвегии. >353905, Новороссийск > Набережная, 65 > кв. 46 > > >Уважаемые господа. >Обращаюсь по поводу вашего объявления - (работа на нефтяных платформах Норвегии зарплата до >5000$ месяц) >Я проживаю в г. Новороссийске, мне 44 года, имею опыт работы электрика (4 разр), >электромеханика (4 разр), слесаря-наладчика, инженера -технолога, видеоинженера, >предпринимателя, владею компьютеромю. Делаю любую трудоемкую работу. Хотел >бы уточнить ряд положений. > >1. Какая фирма производит набор или от лица какой фирмы вы дали объявление? > >2. Проводится ли спецобучение и в какие сроки ? >3. Какие виды работ предлагаются и какой техникой? >4. Какие условия работ ? >5. Вид и гарантии стабильности оплаты? >6. Какая виза оформляется? >7. Какие случаи разрыва или продолжения контракта? >8. Какие города ? > >Несколько моих товарищей, проживающих также в г. Новороссийске, заинтересованы >работой за рубежом. >Имеют водительские права, строительные и портовые специальности. > > Прошу ответить на мое письмо. > С уважением: > Владимир Пятин. From china at pandasoftware.com Thu Sep 13 01:48:12 2001 From: china at pandasoftware.com (Panda Software) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 01:48:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Panda Software Report: "100% Virus Free Companies" Message-ID: <200109130848.BAA09344@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: china.htm Type: text/html Size: 4607 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nobody at dizum.com Wed Sep 12 17:20:09 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 02:20:09 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Cypherpunks and terrorism Message-ID: Declan McCullagh writes: > On Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 06:00:46PM +0200, Nomen Nescio wrote: > > Some terrorists have exactly this as their goal. They are hoping > > to trigger a counter-reaction, an over-reaction, by the authorities. > > They want to see a crackdown on liberties, a police state. This will > > weaken the enemy and demoralize him. It will increase hostility and > > make the population less willing to support the government. > > This is nonsense. I suspect the bin Laden want the U.S. to stop > handing Israel billions of dollars a year in aid and weapons. Not > bombing pharmecutical plants and lifting an embargo that kills > hundreds of thousands (allegedly) of Iraqi women and children might be > a nice move too. It's always amazing to see how stupid the responses are to various messages. There seems to be no limit to the ignorance of the cypherpunks. It is well known that this is a motivation for many terrorists. If you will not believe it from an anonymous message, perhaps you will be convinced by quotes from the two co-founders of the cypherpunks, both of whom have said exactly the same thing in messages posted today: Tim May wrote in 1996 and reposted today: : Revolutionary theory says of course that this increased clampdown is a : desired effect of terrorist bombings and attacks. Fear and doubt. : Revolutionary ends rarely happen by slow, incremental movement. Hundreds of : examples, from the original "bomb-throwing anarchists" to the modern mix of : terrorist bands. The Red Brigade in Italy sought a fascist crackdown, and : the "strategy of tension" is common. (And even revolutionists of crypto : anarchist persuasion often think laws like the CDA are good in the long : run, by undermining respect for authority and triggering more extreme : reactions....) Note his comment about how the Communications Decency Act is actually considered good by revolutionaries of the crypto anarchist persuasion. Know any of those? Gee, the anonymous message made exactly the same point earlier, that someone like Tim May would welcome crackdowns on freedom. Eric Hughes wrote today (in a beautiful message that deserves to be widely distributed): : The goal of these terrorists is to : restrict freedoms in America, to steal its essence and to weaken it. I : shall pray we do not cooperate with this their goal in a hot-headed rush to : immediate results. The same point, made each time: that the terrorists seek to weaken America by causing what Tim May calls an "increased clampdown", what Eric Hughes describes as "to restrict freedoms in America", and what the anonymous poster characterized as "a crackdown on liberties". The difference is that Tim May welcomes the change; Eric Hughes pleads against it; and the anonymous poster merely calls upon cypherpunks to recognize that they have a choice between these contrasting views. There are two contrasting forces at the heart of the cypherpunk philosophy, well exemplified by the two co-founders, and their messages posted today show the difference well. The dark anger of May versus the bright hope of Hughes. Make your choice. From blancw at cnw.com Thu Sep 13 02:36:12 2001 From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 02:36:12 -0700 Subject: Letter to U.S. Agencies Message-ID: I am sending this to certain appropriate representatives: Osama Bin Ladin said in an interview: "We have seen in the last decade the decline of the American government and the weakness of the American soldier who is ready to wage Cold Wars and unprepared to fight long wars." But American soldiers are not the only ones who are "weak and unprepared": every new threat against America (both externally and from within) produces efforts to increase security by the method of weakening already defenseless civilians even further. Every new threat against the nation means we the individuals must become more transparent, that we must allow greater trespass against the sanctity of our private lives, and forsake personal authority over our circumstances, in order that official policing agencies may be assured that we are not criminals, that we have no evil intentions against others, that we are not concealing secret plans against the State. To ensure against the potential threat of enemies among us, our power to act is deemed necessary to circumscribe and an attempt to control the use of any utensil is extended beyond common sense: we are pressured to give up any technology or instrument which could potentially be turned to a destructive purpose; we must not carry or be given any kind of tool, no matter how normally innocuous, which could be employed abnormally as a weapon. If this goes on, we will all become as babes in the woods - naked, disabled, and totally dependent upon paranoic caretakers for protection. The U.S. will become like the former U.S.S.R. The whole load of responsibility for safety cannot be carried by only a few. The damage to the World Trade Center towers resulted in the fall of the interior levels and the total collapse of the buildings. Like these towers, the most impressive free nation on the planet could fall under terrorism because its interior - we the people - lack the wherewithal to act in their own behalf. President Bush remarked that "This is an enemy who preys on unsuspecting people." Unsuspecting people who are unpracticed and unprepared. We all must be allowed to participate in our own defense. We should not be prevented from accoutering ourselves properly in order that we may respond appropriately to danger and be of practical use toward normality and our own security and safety. .. Blanc From afbrown at bellatlantic.net Thu Sep 13 01:07:48 2001 From: afbrown at bellatlantic.net (afbrown at bellatlantic.net) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 04:07:48 -0400 Subject: Will the real Stealth Technology Please Stand-up ? Message-ID: <3BA06954.4A79E31B@mailbox.bellatlantic.net> Despite billions spent on stealth technology, expensive spy satellites and planes, secret listening post throughout the world , Echelon and Carnivore. It seem inconceivable that an terrorist operation of this magnitude could be planned, setup over the course of 1 year and executed with precision without the intelligence community having a clue. Now that the country's defense and intelligence spending has been exaggerated in the wrong direction for so long. Maybe good old fashion human intelligence is more secure than once thought.?? This swiss-cheese National defense system lacks imagination, is based solely upon pasted events and will ultimately prompt future attacks. Chance favors the prepared mind. From anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org Thu Sep 13 02:18:00 2001 From: anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org (Incognito Innominatus) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 04:18:00 -0500 (CDT) Subject: theregister.co.uk: Anonymous Remailers Survive Politech Attack Message-ID: http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/21639.html The anonymous remailer network isn't closing, despite an alarmist and inaccurate story by Wired's Declan McCullagh, and postings to his own widely-read Politech mailing list. Len Sassaman, a security expert and privacy advocate who runs the Randseed remailer, is cited by McCullagh as having "pulled the plug" on his system in the wake of the World Trade Center bombings, and the report hinted that others had too. But Sassaman's system didn't go off-line and McCullagh, it turns out, hadn't been in touch to check. An announcement rapidly followed explaining that Randseed had been switched into middleman mode, which simply prevents it from being the last machine in the remailer chain. And real-time statistics at press time showed thirty six Type II 'Mixmaster' remailers in operation, more than are usually running. Many more Type I remailers were also active. Sassaman told us that the precaution was to preempt concern about hate mail or threats being made using the system. His remailer processes around three thousand messages a day, and out of a million messages over the past year, only two have drawn the attention of the authorities. [...] From measl at mfn.org Thu Sep 13 02:45:33 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 04:45:33 -0500 (CDT) Subject: where do we go from here (and where should we have gone) In-Reply-To: <20010913053748.EFC043465A@hun.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Sep 2001, attila! wrote: > The time for a massive one-shot 'retaliation' has passed > --it should have been done within the hour. Change "the hour" to "an hour or two", and I would agree with this. However, we have an incredible bloatocracy, and about the only thing that can be coordinated within an hour or two nowadays is a blowjob from the intern... > Terrorists are a special case. Bin Laden is following > the playbook of the old Chinese master, Sun Tzu: kill > one man and you terrify 10,000. Terrorists can only be > eliminated by turning the people against them with pain > and suffering --eg: 18 million Iraqis all do not wish to > be martyrs when the chips are down. If we had taken out > Iraq and Afghanistan, we should have smiled and said: > "Next?" And here is where you completely part with reality, and start regurgitating the carefully crafted bullshit you have been fed by this bloatocracy. The fact is, we have already killed many more than the 18 million you cite, and *that* is one of the many reasons we are so loathed, both externally, and internally. > Today's Federalist article was the strongest (and > most rational) I have seen --their bottom line is part > of what I demanded yesterday: Afghanistan becomes molten > silicon. Yup, sure *sounds* rational alright like a guy on Ketamine. > What do we do now? Probably slide down the slope of the > talking heads as the Left criticizes Bush's lack of > decisive leadership (and U.S. intelligence failure) and > permits the UN to convene to condemn the terrorism, but > even more strongly condemn U.S. foreign policy for > creating the world problems which brought forth the > terrorist response --in other words, the U.S. must pay > off the radical Islamists. No. not "Pay off", just leave the fuck alone. We had this one coming. In fact, we had this coming _in spades_, and for a _very_ long time. What goeas around comes around, ya? We kill _millions_ of innocent civilians unjustifiably, and then have the GALL to complain when our own tactics are used against us??? > But even more pernicious, few Americans will trust the > government to protect them or represent them in the world. You mean there were such fools *before* this happened??? > Sorry, George, I thought you were more of a man. Bzzzt. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From attila at hun.org Wed Sep 12 22:37:48 2001 From: attila at hun.org (attila!) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 05:37:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: where do we go from here (and where should we have gone) Message-ID: <20010913053748.EFC043465A@hun.org> The time for a massive one-shot 'retaliation' has passed --it should have been done within the hour. I had hoped when Bush went to Orfit AFB (US missile command, sometimes referred to as 'nuke city') we might see a proper response --we did not. As members of the Church we are required to forgive our "trespassers"; I have no problem with forgiving them as they are obviously misguided, but that does not change the need and responsibility to protect our families and therefore punish not only the direct participants but also their leaders and any nations who harbor them. In so much as the terrorists are outside the reasonable laws of man, extraordinary measures are warranted. I consider 'war, in and of itself, a war crime', but that does not diminish the occasional requirement to maintain the rule of law, but war should only be entertained if you are determined to strike a decisive (and hopefully permanent) victory. To the victors go the privilege to write history; to the losers go the war crime trials. Terrorists are a special case. Bin Laden is following the playbook of the old Chinese master, Sun Tzu: kill one man and you terrify 10,000. Terrorists can only be eliminated by turning the people against them with pain and suffering --eg: 18 million Iraqis all do not wish to be martyrs when the chips are down. If we had taken out Iraq and Afghanistan, we should have smiled and said: "Next?" Geostrategy Direct detailed the Israeli assessment of Bin Laden's and Hussein's dirty hands. Today's Federalist article was the strongest (and most rational) I have seen --their bottom line is part of what I demanded yesterday: Afghanistan becomes molten silicon. What do we do now? Probably slide down the slope of the talking heads as the Left criticizes Bush's lack of decisive leadership (and U.S. intelligence failure) and permits the UN to convene to condemn the terrorism, but even more strongly condemn U.S. foreign policy for creating the world problems which brought forth the terrorist response --in other words, the U.S. must pay off the radical Islamists. Jefferson made the correct statement in history vis a vis the Barbary pirates: '...not one penny in tribute' --even the Brits had been paying tribute. A task force, led by the USS Constitution (Old Ironsides) and the Marine Corps, leveled Tripoli. They did not ask for their surrender: they eliminated them. Summary justice. George blew his window of opportunity --he had a chance to go down in history as a decisive leader in crisis, rather than just a president who presided over the worst single casualty ever suffered by America, here or abroad; the diminution of our military status; the abrogation of our leadership in the free world; and the potential destruction of our economic base if the financial markets collapse when the stock markets reopen on Monday. But even more pernicious, few Americans will trust the government to protect them or represent them in the world. Sorry, George, I thought you were more of a man. From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Thu Sep 13 05:11:41 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 07:11:41 -0500 (CDT) Subject: DES cracked by teenagers? (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 16:32:13 -0400 From: Steve Bellovin To: cryptography at wasabisystems.com Subject: DES cracked by teenagers? According to http://www.hk-imail.com/inews/public/article_v.cfm?articleid=28867&intcatid=1, some teenagers "reportedly cracked an encryption technology called Data Encryption Standard (DES)". I'm skeptical, but I thought I'd toss it out. Anyone have any details? --Steve Bellovin, http://www.research.att.com/~smb http://www.wilyhacker.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From jamesd at echeque.com Thu Sep 13 07:30:22 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 07:30:22 -0700 Subject: Cypherpunks and terrorism In-Reply-To: <4be50f9bc3262e18de859461637c7cfe@dizum.com> Message-ID: <3BA0608E.10706.4C6E9DE@localhost> -- On 12 Sep 2001, at 18:00, Nomen Nescio wrote: > Maybe our own policies and beliefs have turned against us, to > our detriment. There have been a number of reports that bin > Laden uses cryptography and even steganography tools. This > could still have a significant crypto connection. Obviously this catastrophe could not have taken place without the unauthorized use of paper. Paper allows people to communicate dangerous ideas and secret messages. With paper, anyone can communicate to large numbers of people at once, even if they are not properly authorized or in authority. The solution is clear. Paper must be a government monopoly . Paper should only be used for government forms and official government statements. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG AX7IyUtEmXvrShOs/Y1uEELi2xLS9MvBdLhpNDcF 43NVXCeYgSl5wL3xCAajeDqKq7BHzzaaz6RUzAgow From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Thu Sep 13 05:30:26 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 07:30:26 -0500 Subject: Investigators Identify 50 Terrorists Tied to Plot Message-ID: <3BA0A6E2.637FF694@ssz.com> http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-091301terror.story -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Thu Sep 13 05:37:02 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 07:37:02 -0500 Subject: Privacy Trade-Offs Reassessed (washingtonpost.com) Message-ID: <3BA0A86E.2CD5BB1@ssz.com> http://a188.g.akamaitech.net/f/188/920/4m/www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21207-2001Sep12.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Thu Sep 13 05:46:44 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 07:46:44 -0500 (CDT) Subject: PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENT Worldwide Caution (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 08:27:44 -0400 From: PA List Manager To: DOSTRAVEL at LISTS.STATE.GOV Subject: PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENT Worldwide Caution PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENT U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE Office of the Spokesman Worldwide Caution September 12, 2001 The events of September 11 at the World Trade Center, the Pentagon and Somerset, Pennsylvania, serve as a cruel reminder of the continuing threat from terrorists and extremist groups to Americans and American interests worldwide. This situation remains fluid and American citizens should be aware of the potential risks and to take these into consideration when making travel plans. The Department will continue to develop information about potential threats to Americans overseas and to share credible threat information through its Consular Information Program documents available on the Internet at http://www.travel.state.gov. As the U.S. Government has reported in Public Announcements over the last several months, U.S. citizens and interests abroad may be at increased risk of terrorist actions from extremist groups. Most recently, we advised that we had unconfirmed information that terrorist actions may be taken against U.S. military facilities and/or establishments frequented by U.S. military personnel in Korea and Japan. In addition, we continue to be concerned about information we received in May 2001 that American citizens may be the target of a terrorist threat from extremist groups with links to Usama Bin Ladin's Al-Qaida organization. In the past, such individuals have not distinguished between official and civilian targets. We take this information seriously. In light of the above information, U.S. Government facilities worldwide remain at a heightened state of alert. U.S. citizens are urged to maintain a high level of vigilance and to increase their security awareness. Americans should maintain a low profile, vary routes and times for all required travel, and treat mail and packages from unfamiliar sources with suspicion. American citizens are also urged to avoid contact with any suspicious, unfamiliar objects, and to report the presence of the objects to local authorities. Vehicles should not be left unattended and should be kept locked at all times. U.S. Government personnel overseas have been advised to take the same precautions. U.S. citizens planning to travel abroad should consult the Department of State's Public Announcements, Travel Warnings, Consular Information Sheets, and regional travel brochures, all of which are available at the Consular Affairs Internet website at http://travel.state.gov. We will continue to provide updated information should it become available. American citizens overseas may contact the American Citizens Services unit of the nearest U.S. Embassy or Consulate by telephone or fax for up-to-date information on security conditions. American citizens in need of emergency assistance should telephone the nearest U.S. Embassy or Consulate before visiting there. U.S. Government facilities have and will continue to temporarily close or suspend public services as necessary to review their security posture and ensure its adequacy. In those instances, U.S. Missions will make every effort to provide emergency services to American citizens. In addition to information on the Internet, U.S. travelers may hear recorded information by calling the Department of State in Washington, D.C. at 202-647-5225 from their touch-tone telephone, or receive information by automated telefax by dialing 202-647-3000 from their fax machine. This Public Announcement supersedes the Public Announcement - Worldwide Caution of September 7, 2001, to inform U.S. citizens of of our continued concern about safety and security overseas in light of the events of September 11. This Public Announcement expires on March 12, 2002. *********************************************************** See http://travel.state.gov/travel_warnings.html for State Department Travel Warnings ************************************************************ To change your subscription, go to http://www.state.gov/www/listservs_cms.html From jamesd at echeque.com Thu Sep 13 08:07:34 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 08:07:34 -0700 Subject: Manhattan Mid-Afternoon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3BA06946.18635.4E8F979@localhost> -- On 12 Sep 2001, at 14:59, Trei, Peter wrote: > I sincerely hope that the remaining perpetrators of this > atrocity are found and punished, but entertain no illusions > that doing so will prevent future attacks. That can only come > from a shift of US government attitude from "I've got the > biggest stick", to one of non-interference. If it turns out that some of the terrorists were people who were beaten up a few times too many by Israeli soldiers, then the US government's only effectual remedy is to stop its alliance with Israel. If, however, it turns out that all the terrorists were from some countries that are unfree, poor and miserable, and are outraged by the fact that we are free, rich and happy, and blame us, rather than themselves, for their poverty and misery, then the only way to appease them would be to become unfree and poor. I would rather toast the entire third world, than make such a concession. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG Y7uaIORhvsiSNFbd3uvHLO13Q10f+FGbxTR+8Hs+ 4oZbuoQ/ovQxHW9rYGsfEYtOODo7dZvu+F4J7s4Xi From afbrown at bellatlantic.net Thu Sep 13 05:07:39 2001 From: afbrown at bellatlantic.net (WishMaster) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 08:07:39 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: low tech, high concept] Message-ID: <3BA0A18B.2160D860@mailbox.bellatlantic.net> If Bush had it his way you would never get the chance to use that 1911 to protect yourself -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 186 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: unknown sender Subject: no subject Date: no date Size: 38 URL: From jbradley at earthlink.net Thu Sep 13 08:11:01 2001 From: jbradley at earthlink.net (GRAVY) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 08:11:01 -0700 Subject: GRAVY on the attack Message-ID: Fire is what brought the towers down. An engineer friend explained that after a fire burns for awhile, the steel holding up the structure softens. When it fails, the part above falls with impact on the part below, which causes progressive collapse of the building, or pancaking, as one floor crunches onto the next onto the next. Once one floor goes there is no stopping it. The World Trade Center was likely designed to last 1-2 hours in a major fire, long enough for most people to evacuate. The tower that fell first lasted 57 minutes, in a fire driven by 100,000 pounds of jet fuel. No one anticipated that part when the building was designed, and there is no way to build a building to withstand such an event. The TV newscasters who keep asking what could have been done to make the buildings more resistant should go home. An astonishing thing is the way the towers collapsed straight down. As horrifying as that was, imagine how much more damage and loss of life there would have been would have been if they had tipped over like falling trees, landing on surrounding buildings for a quarter mile. A building demolition expert interviewed on NPR said that what made the disciplined collapse possible was the external skeleton, the girders that lined the edges of the towers. These girders contained the collapse. The expert considered this an extraordinary achievement by the architect. The World Trade Center was designed by the late Minoru Yamasaki, at the firm of Skilling, Ward, Magnusson and Barkshire, in Seattle. You have to think it's good he didn't live to see this. The rest of his firm is said to be shock, as are the employees of Boeing, whose engineers are acutely aware of the destructive energy contained in a 767 going three hundred miles an hour and full of fuel. A few random notes: This attack seems different from Pearl Harbor in the same way that the Vietnam War seemed different to fight than previous wars, which is that the enemy did not stand up and "fight like a man," but rather was hidden, hard to find, and devious, as well as surprising. The British felt the same way about the American "irregulars" in the revolutionary war. They felt we weren't fighting fairly or properly. In all three cases, one side deliberately ignored the "code of war" of the time to powerful effect. In this way the definition of war changes. It just changed again, whether we like it or not. Whatever we do to retaliate risks an escalation of terrorist-style attacks on American citizens. We will not get to watch our distant military on newsreels and TV like the old days. One of the things that makes this scary is that we have found a bomb, and it is everywhere. Every plane is a terrific bomb for a pilot who is willing to die. This attack has been called cowardly. That's silly. It was no more cowardly than flying a stealth fighter loaded with smart bombs into Iraq, when by the same definition the uncowardly thing would have been to ride in on a camel with a broadsword. The plane that crashed in Pennsylvania was headed for Washington but the plan was foiled by the passengers who had heard what the planes did in New York. Bravo. Instead of banning knives, perhaps we should issue one to every passenger on all commercial flights. This attack was a huge failure of American military intelligence. This attack points up the value of an unworkable and insanely expensive missile defense system. For those of you who are sleepy, that value would be zero. Bush said that we were attacked because we believe in freedom. This is not why we were attacked. There is much about the execution of our foreign policy that rarely makes it into US news reports. If you have lived abroad for more than a few months, you have seen this. If not, it is educational to talk to someone who has. At the same time, nearly all Arabs and other Muslims abhor terrorism. The Arab-Americans I know are as dismayed and horrified as we are. Our airport security has always been a joke. My dad's crutches were consistently handed around the inspection points by the nice people working there. All I could think was how much explosive or how many knives and zip guns I could have packed into each crutch, while they were busy making business travelers go through their briefcases. It is hard to fight people who believe they will achieve martyrdom and go to heaven following a suicide attack for their cause. It is an impossible stretch for us to understand how our enemy thinks when it is that different from how we think. It is difficult to protect yourself from someone who does not value his life on this earth. Of course fight them we shall. No one gets to do what they did. We need to start by repealing some laws, like the one that says we can't use intelligence agents to infiltrate groups with human rights violations (which wizard thought up that one?), and the one that says we can't assassinate heads of state. We must not try to bring anyone to trial. We must be as surgical as possible, to minimize the loss of innocent life that would would be both a new tragedy and a fuel for escalation. I support Bush's plan to treat harboring states and helpers as indistinguishable from the terrorists themselves. Above all, we must not rush. There is no advantage or need to hurry. We must take our time, learn everything we need to learn, make no mistake. And then it will be time to execute. I regret that that will not be the end of it. jb -- It ain't so much the things you don't know that get you in trouble. It's the things you know that just ain't so. -- Artimus Ward, 1834-1867 Put another way: You can always spot a well informed man - his views are the same as yours. -- Ilka Chase -*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*-- The GRAVY letter, edited by James Bradley. -*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*-- To SUBSCRIBE to the GRAVY Letter, or to UNSUBSCRIBE, send mailto:jbradley at earthlink.net with SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE in the SUBJECT LINE. You will be subscribed at the address you are writing from. -*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*-- DISCLAIMER: GRAVY does not promise to be or not be any particular way. GRAVY postings are not verified. GRAVY is intended only as entertainment. You should never use GRAVY as basis for any judgement or decision without thoroughly investigating the relevant facts yourself. 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If someone is forwarding GRAVY to you and you like it, why not subscribe? -*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*-- This footer is proof that text is deliverable to everyone right now. ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************** From schear at lvcm.com Thu Sep 13 08:27:55 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 08:27:55 -0700 Subject: J. Neil Schulman On I can't take it anymore .... In-Reply-To: <20010913100139.A14583@cluebot.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010912222341.035b89f0@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20010912222341.035b89f0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010913082738.035f8e98@pop3.lvcm.com> At 10:01 AM 9/13/2001 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: >On Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 10:28:24PM -0700, Steve Schear wrote: > > But they are. On U.S. domestic flights they have merely to present > > themselves and acceptable credentials (which BTW the airline personnel are > > poorly trained to authenticate) and state in a form that they are > traveling > > for LE purposes. There are other formalities that are followed, but > > overall they are not restricted from carrying. > >I believe after a Washington Post expose a few months ago (or perhaps >it was just concidental) this rule was changed. I was not aware. Thanks for the info. steve From pcw2 at flyzone.com Thu Sep 13 05:46:38 2001 From: pcw2 at flyzone.com (Peter Wayner) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 08:46:38 -0400 Subject: An assault on liberty? Message-ID: <200109131250.FAA07047@scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net> I realize that many will use this event as an excuse for many political agendas, but I think it's important that we think through exactly what happened. It doesn't seem like it was an assault on liberty or a misuse of the liberties we have. Most people can't fly planes. The learning process is long and the licensing requirements are many. Flying a 757 is even more restricted by both cost and licensing requirements. It's not a liberty like walking around the streets or speaking one's mind. It doesn't seem to me that this attack had anything to do with liberty. It's not like someone abused the right to bear arms by shooting someone, it's not like someone abused the right to speak freely by libeling someone, it's not like someone abused the right to drink alcohol by plowing into a school bus after drinking too much. These guys were unauthorized to have knives, they were unauthorized to have bombs, they were unauthorized to fly 757s, they were probably unauthorized to be in the country. Yet they did all of these despite the controls. The hard lesson is that controls don't always work. Licensing requirements, security checkpoints, and armed guards fail. It's sad, but there's no physical law like gravity that we can depend upon to keep ourselves safe. If you ask me, the biggest danger is that we'll add more ineffective security measures in the hopes of doing something. And the real problem is the controls may never be enough to keep us safe. -Peter From jamesd at echeque.com Thu Sep 13 08:48:30 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 08:48:30 -0700 Subject: New FAA measures likely to fail as well In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010912184303.035b4eb8@pop3.lvcm.com> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010912160432.021652d0@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <3BA072DE.6943.50E73EF@localhost> -- On 12 Sep 2001, at 19:24, Steve Schear wrote: > The knife ban won't work against anyone with even a smidgen of > metal detector knowledge. Anyone can purchase a razor sharp > ceramic knife like this one > http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:Rd6ExOvaDz8:www.smarthome. > com/9126.html+ceramic+knife&hl=en Better still, this lovely little ceramic knife http://www.argussupply.com/images/boker-2040.gif is street legal in California. Get one now! The only solution is to do what many other nations have successfully done. Arm the crew and tell them to stop any hijacking by whatever means it takes. Against a disarmed crew under orders to cooperate, any weapon will be sufficient. Against an armed crew under orders to die fighting, no weapon will be sufficient. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG wbTKherEmEkb7WrFXVL2SLrBZcFURSqr2WfMfva7 4fHjwEeylrHZNSzsvNFE7AN0q3lxb6O8lmg9JtZ2b From Ben.Weber at greythorninc.com Thu Sep 13 09:03:58 2001 From: Ben.Weber at greythorninc.com (Ben Weber) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:03:58 -0700 Subject: where do we go from here (and where should we have gone) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Are you serious? Are you an American? Your views on the nations foreign policy make no sense for those logical Americans who know the good in what this nation does and stands for. > No. not "Pay off", just leave the fuck alone. We had this one coming. In > fact, we had this coming _in spades_, and for a _very_ long time. What > goeas around comes around, ya? We kill _millions_ of innocent civilians > unjustifiably, and then have the GALL to complain when our own tactics are > used against us??? 'Complain'? "We kill millions of innocent civilians unjustifiably"? Give me a break, Americans are not the DEVIL, this sounds like something the only the devil himself would do. To kill millions of innocent civilians; this is not the American Foreign Policy, never was and never will be. The real American Foreign Policy, not the garbage propaganda you've obviously been reading: Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were > > >>> lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in > > >>> billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of > > >>> these countries is today paying even the interest on its > > >>> remaining debts to the United States. > > >>> > > >>> When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, > > >>> it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to > > >>> be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I > > >>> saw it. > > >>> > > >>> When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the > > >>> United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American > > >>> communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped. > > >>> > > >>> The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped > > >>> billions of dollars! into discouraged countries. Now newspapers > > >>> in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering > > >>> Americans. - Canadian Newspaper (unbiased source) Your words have sickened me. Even if atrocities like you say did take place, I'm sure they were done for a good reason; your still here aren't you? Living on the freest soil on earth. I think a thank you is in order, not a diatribe loathing the very government and people that gave you that ugly soap box your standing on. Ben Weber Senior Recruitment Consultant Information Security Practice Greythorn Inc 425 635 0300 ben.weber at greythorninc.com www.greythorn.com -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --- This e-mail may contain privileged and/or confidential information and is for the intended recipients only. In the event that you receive this e-mail in error you should delete it from all locations on your computer/network and contact Greythorn immediately on + 1 425 635 0300. As e-mail is an electronic form of communication the data may have been subject to corruption or unauthorized use and as such any views or opinions contained in this e-mail are not necessarily the views of Greythorn Inc and the company cannot be held responsible for any misuse. -----Original Message----- From: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at toad.com]On Behalf Of measl at mfn.org Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 2:46 AM To: attila! Cc: cypherpunks at toad.com Subject: Re: where do we go from here (and where should we have gone) On Thu, 13 Sep 2001, attila! wrote: > The time for a massive one-shot 'retaliation' has passed > --it should have been done within the hour. Change "the hour" to "an hour or two", and I would agree with this. However, we have an incredible bloatocracy, and about the only thing that can be coordinated within an hour or two nowadays is a blowjob from the intern... > Terrorists are a special case. Bin Laden is following > the playbook of the old Chinese master, Sun Tzu: kill > one man and you terrify 10,000. Terrorists can only be > eliminated by turning the people against them with pain > and suffering --eg: 18 million Iraqis all do not wish to > be martyrs when the chips are down. If we had taken out > Iraq and Afghanistan, we should have smiled and said: > "Next?" And here is where you completely part with reality, and start regurgitating the carefully crafted bullshit you have been fed by this bloatocracy. The fact is, we have already killed many more than the 18 million you cite, and *that* is one of the many reasons we are so loathed, both externally, and internally. > Today's Federalist article was the strongest (and > most rational) I have seen --their bottom line is part > of what I demanded yesterday: Afghanistan becomes molten > silicon. Yup, sure *sounds* rational alright like a guy on Ketamine. > What do we do now? Probably slide down the slope of the > talking heads as the Left criticizes Bush's lack of > decisive leadership (and U.S. intelligence failure) and > permits the UN to convene to condemn the terrorism, but > even more strongly condemn U.S. foreign policy for > creating the world problems which brought forth the > terrorist response --in other words, the U.S. must pay > off the radical Islamists. No. not "Pay off", just leave the fuck alone. We had this one coming. In fact, we had this coming _in spades_, and for a _very_ long time. What goeas around comes around, ya? We kill _millions_ of innocent civilians unjustifiably, and then have the GALL to complain when our own tactics are used against us??? > But even more pernicious, few Americans will trust the > government to protect them or represent them in the world. You mean there were such fools *before* this happened??? > Sorry, George, I thought you were more of a man. Bzzzt. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From paul at robichaux.net Thu Sep 13 07:12:36 2001 From: paul at robichaux.net (Paul E. Robichaux) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:12:36 -0500 Subject: J. Neil Schulman On I can't take it anymore .... Message-ID: <163E38AD96AAC044B486CC084AEB0E1F01EB0A@tornado.robichaux.lo cal> >But they are. On U.S. domestic flights they have merely to >present themselves and acceptable credentials (which BTW the >airline personnel are poorly trained to authenticate) and state >in a form that they are traveling for LE purposes. That goes for federal LEOs, not local or state. From tcmay at got.net Thu Sep 13 09:18:19 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:18:19 -0700 Subject: New FAA measures likely to fail as well In-Reply-To: <3BA072DE.6943.50E73EF@localhost> Message-ID: <200109131619.f8DGJvf15721@slack.lne.com> [I am removing Politech from the dist. list. Cross-posting to mulitple lists is a terrible idea. Decide which list you want to talk on, then do it _there_.] On Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 08:48 AM, jamesd at echeque.com wrote: > -- > On 12 Sep 2001, at 19:24, Steve Schear wrote: >> The knife ban won't work against anyone with even a smidgen of >> metal detector knowledge. Anyone can purchase a razor sharp >> ceramic knife like this one >> http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:Rd6ExOvaDz8:www.smarthome. >> com/9126.html+ceramic+knife&hl=en > > Better still, this lovely little ceramic knife > http://www.argussupply.com/images/boker-2040.gif is street legal > in California. Get one now! I've had that exact Boker ceramic knife for about 5-7 years now. Of no use for bypassing metal scanners, as the case/handle is titanium. (Titanium is not ferromagnetic, but metal detectors work by inducing eddy currents, which is why aluminum is detected by metal scanners.) Furthermore, the blade is alumina (aluminum oxide, Al2O3) and should show up clearly on x-ray scans. So should the titanium. More interesting are the various plastic knives the CIA has used for many decades. Hard enough to cut flesh, but won't show up on either metal detectors or x-ray scans. (Sen. Feinswine: "We must put an end to the unauthorized use of plastic. We must enact a ban on discussion of these Undetectable Assault Knives. It's for the children!") The next set of hijackers will carry quick-acting cyanide solutions in aerosol spray bottles: spraying a couple of stewardesses will be as effective in terrifying the rest as stabbing them was in this recent attack. --Tim May From roy at scytale.com Thu Sep 13 07:35:20 2001 From: roy at scytale.com (Roy M. Silvernail) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:35:20 -0500 Subject: Basking in the Glow of Terror In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3BA07DD8.1237.3CF3CB@localhost> On 12 Sep 2001, at 23:30, Frog2 wrote: > Assertion: "The overt sophistication of this attack was such that I > have a hard time believing the perps would leave so many obvious clues > behind without intending to." > > These are suicide attacks. Why do they care what clues they leave? Interesting that a friend at work asked the very same question when I made that assertion. My answer: They don't, but their handlers certainly do. Your piece eloquently supports my opinion that this was a large- scale, well-planned operation. It was not planned solely by the perps who carried out the missions. Their handlers will not want to be easily identified, lest they draw nuclear fire. Therefore, all the easily discovered clues will doubtless be diversionary. -- Roy M. Silvernail Proprietor, scytale.com roy at scytale.com From citizenQ at ziplip.com Thu Sep 13 09:43:59 2001 From: citizenQ at ziplip.com (citizenQ) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:43:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: G. Bush Sr., Gephardt on shift in privacy balance Message-ID: VIA CNN this AM: (somewhat paraphrasing) Bush Sr., speaking to some corporate collection of cronies: "We'll also have to look at this Internet thing you all know so much about, and review our policies..." Gephardt: "We don't have to, we don't want to change the Constitution, but there will need to be a shift in the balance between freedom and security..." The planes have hit the towers but the shit has yet to hit the fan. From declan at well.com Thu Sep 13 07:01:39 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 10:01:39 -0400 Subject: J. Neil Schulman On I can't take it anymore .... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010912222341.035b89f0@pop3.lvcm.com>; from schear@lvcm.com on Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 10:28:24PM -0700 References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010912222341.035b89f0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <20010913100139.A14583@cluebot.com> On Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 10:28:24PM -0700, Steve Schear wrote: > But they are. On U.S. domestic flights they have merely to present > themselves and acceptable credentials (which BTW the airline personnel are > poorly trained to authenticate) and state in a form that they are traveling > for LE purposes. There are other formalities that are followed, but > overall they are not restricted from carrying. I believe after a Washington Post expose a few months ago (or perhaps it was just concidental) this rule was changed. -Declan From peter.stone at searchflow.co.uk Thu Sep 13 02:06:33 2001 From: peter.stone at searchflow.co.uk (Peter Stone) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 10:06:33 +0100 Subject: Will the real Stealth Technology Please Stand-up ? Message-ID: have the NSA not been complaining that the technology is underfunded recently and they could not keep up with other countries/groups. Maybe this is proof of this. Also it seems a big conincidence to me that information that casts further doubt on the lockerbie bombing trial (for which syrian terrorists were originally blamed) comes to light on the same day as this attack. Maybe it was a demonstration that we got the wrong guys? -----Original Message----- From: afbrown at bellatlantic.net [mailto:afbrown at bellatlantic.net] Sent: 13 September 2001 09:08 To: cypherpunks at toad.com Subject: Will the real Stealth Technology Please Stand-up ? Despite billions spent on stealth technology, expensive spy satellites and planes, secret listening post throughout the world , Echelon and Carnivore. It seem inconceivable that an terrorist operation of this magnitude could be planned, setup over the course of 1 year and executed with precision without the intelligence community having a clue. Now that the country's defense and intelligence spending has been exaggerated in the wrong direction for so long. Maybe good old fashion human intelligence is more secure than once thought.?? This swiss-cheese National defense system lacks imagination, is based solely upon pasted events and will ultimately prompt future attacks. Chance favors the prepared mind. From aimee.farr at pobox.com Thu Sep 13 08:36:54 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 10:36:54 -0500 Subject: Anonymizer "Op Safe Investigation" / Official Anonymity Message-ID: "Anonymizer.com Launches 'Operation Safe Investigation' to Help Law Enforcement and Journalism Professionals Maintain Anonymity and Safety Online" PRNewswire (09/06/01) NLECTC Law Enforcement & Corrections Technology News Summary Thursday, September 13, 2001 ... Anonymizer.com just debuted its "Operation Safe Investigation" program to protect the identities of law enforcement agents and journalists conducting investigations via the Internet. Under the program, the company will allocate as many as 25 user licenses for its Anonymous Surfing service. Accounts remain active for a period of three months, but participants will receive an option to continue using the licenses at a reduced cost in the future. Law enforcement officials require anonymity to conduct investigations about the activities of Web surfers suspected of criminal activities and for accessing certain Web sites that show different Web pages based on a user's identity. In addition to allowing investigators to effectively conceal their identities, the service provides protection from various security and privacy threats found on the Web. (www.prnewswire.com) ~Aimee Anonymity would be a greater aid to LEA to grease _incoming_ information flows. I've got flyboys scratching the sky here all a.m. ----- Shrwwwwwwoooooooooom!!!! Shrwwooooooooom!!! Serious play up there. From aimee.farr at pobox.com Thu Sep 13 08:39:57 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 10:39:57 -0500 Subject: Cypherpunk Threat Analysis Message-ID: For the sick people in here that like to call for TNA's (target name and address) for judicial officials etc. -- NLECTC Law Enforcement & Corrections Technology News Summary Thursday, September 13, 2001 -- "Technological Advances in Assessing Threats to Judicial Officials" Sheriff (08/01) Vol. 53, No. 4, P. 34; Calhoun, Frederick S. The majority of sheriff offices throughout the country assign personnel to handle threats made to judges according to which situations pose the greatest risks. Los Angeles security consulting firm Gavin de Becker has developed an advanced threat-management system that incorporates computers. Assessing which threat poses the most risk to court officials or jurors is difficult. According to the U.S. Marshals Service's case files, people making threats rarely carry them through. Gavin de Becker's MOSAIC program provides a series of questions designed to assess the potential risk posed by different situations and people. The Supreme Court Police use the program for ensuring the safety of the chief justices. (www.sheriffs.org) ~Aimee From dredd at megacity.org Thu Sep 13 11:15:04 2001 From: dredd at megacity.org (Derek Balling) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 11:15:04 -0700 Subject: J. Neil Schulman On I can't take it anymore .... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010912222341.035b89f0@pop3.lvcm.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010912222341.035b89f0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: At 10:28 PM -0700 9/12/01, Steve Schear wrote: >>If local police officers who fly were allowed to carry their guns with >>them, warned only to switch to frangible ammunition, this couldn't have >>happened. > >But they are. On U.S. domestic flights they have merely to present >themselves and acceptable credentials (which BTW the airline >personnel are poorly trained to authenticate) and state in a form >that they are traveling for LE purposes. There are other >formalities that are followed, but overall they are not restricted >from carrying. But why should it have to be "for law enforcement purposes"? Is the LEO somehow "less capable of handling his firearm properly" because he's not travelling to LGA to pick up a prisoner? D -- +---------------------+-----------------------------------------+ | dredd at megacity.org | "Conan! What is best in life?" | | Derek J. Balling | "To crush your enemies, see them | | | driven before you, and to hear the | | | lamentation of their women!" | +---------------------+-----------------------------------------+ From dbob at semtex.com Thu Sep 13 11:36:44 2001 From: dbob at semtex.com (Dynamite Bob) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 11:36:44 -0700 Subject: Priceless (tm) Message-ID: <3BA0FCBC.1B02B3E5@semtex.com> Two dozen boxcutters $20 18 airplane tickets, one way $3500 Jet airplane schooling for four $40,000 Imploding the Bill of Rights, turning US into Israel: Priceless There are some things money can't buy, for everything else there's MasterCard (tm) From schear at lvcm.com Thu Sep 13 11:51:03 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 11:51:03 -0700 Subject: J. Neil Schulman On I can't take it anymore .... In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010912222341.035b89f0@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20010912222341.035b89f0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010913114751.03787558@pop3.lvcm.com> At 11:15 AM 9/13/2001 -0700, Derek Balling wrote: >At 10:28 PM -0700 9/12/01, Steve Schear wrote: >>>If local police officers who fly were allowed to carry their guns with >>>them, warned only to switch to frangible ammunition, this couldn't have >>>happened. >> >>But they are. On U.S. domestic flights they have merely to present >>themselves and acceptable credentials (which BTW the airline personnel >>are poorly trained to authenticate) and state in a form that they are >>traveling for LE purposes. There are other formalities that are >>followed, but overall they are not restricted from carrying. > >But why should it have to be "for law enforcement purposes"? Is the LEO >somehow "less capable of handling his firearm properly" because he's not >travelling to LGA to pick up a prisoner? I can't speak to the why since those thoughts are rarely communicated outside the FAA. Perhaps its the Fed LEs themselves who reluctant to go through the paperwork unless they are traveling on business. steve From tcmay at got.net Thu Sep 13 11:52:08 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 11:52:08 -0700 Subject: Cypherpunk Threat Analysis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200109131853.f8DIrff16933@slack.lne.com> On Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 08:39 AM, Aimee Farr wrote: > For the sick people in here that like to call for TNA's (target name and > address) for judicial officials etc. > > -- > NLECTC Law Enforcement & Corrections Technology News Summary > Thursday, September 13, 2001 > -- > "Technological Advances in Assessing Threats to Judicial > Officials" > Sheriff (08/01) Vol. 53, No. 4, P. 34; Calhoun, Frederick S. > > The majority of sheriff offices throughout the country > assign personnel to handle threats made to judges according > to which situations pose the greatest risks. Los Angeles I wonder why Agent Farr warns about our list "tolerating" bomb discussions, and then posts her own provocateur bomb discussions. I wonder why Agent Farr refers to the "sick people in here" who cite names of LEAs and then makes a point to cite LEA persons by _name_. Agent Farr arrived from _nowhere_ just after the election last year, with no previous detectable online interests, on half a dozen of the most "controversial" mailing lists and discussion groups. She began baiting and provoking, and when that failed, starting her own "Bomb Law Reporter" and attempting to entrap discussion group participants in what she has claimed are "dangerous" activities. She has recently claimed that our failure to support Big Brother-friendly networks makes us equivalent to the WTC actors. The witch hunt began a long time ago, but it has taken on new dimensions recently. Expect to see the real Agent Farr, who is very probably not named "Aimee" in real life, testifying before Congress on his "undercover" operations to shut down the Cypherpunks, PGP, and Extropians lists. --Tim May From declan at well.com Thu Sep 13 09:02:05 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 12:02:05 -0400 Subject: J. Neil Schulman On I can't take it anymore .... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010913082738.035f8e98@pop3.lvcm.com> References: <20010913100139.A14583@cluebot.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20010912222341.035b89f0@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20010912222341.035b89f0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010913120129.026623b0@mail.well.com> This is what I vaguely recall -- I didn't write about it myself. I recall it was a GAO investigation that the Post wrote about. --Declan At 08:27 AM 9/13/01 -0700, Steve Schear wrote: >At 10:01 AM 9/13/2001 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: >>On Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 10:28:24PM -0700, Steve Schear wrote: >> > But they are. On U.S. domestic flights they have merely to present >> > themselves and acceptable credentials (which BTW the airline personnel are >> > poorly trained to authenticate) and state in a form that they are >> traveling >> > for LE purposes. There are other formalities that are followed, but >> > overall they are not restricted from carrying. >> >>I believe after a Washington Post expose a few months ago (or perhaps >>it was just concidental) this rule was changed. > >I was not aware. Thanks for the info. > >steve From sunder at sunder.net Thu Sep 13 09:02:43 2001 From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 12:02:43 -0400 (edt) Subject: Cypherpunks and terrorism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Sep 2001, Nomen Nescio wrote: > Declan McCullagh writes: > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 06:00:46PM +0200, Nomen Nescio wrote: > > > Some terrorists have exactly this as their goal. They are hoping > > > to trigger a counter-reaction, an over-reaction, by the authorities. > > > They want to see a crackdown on liberties, a police state. This will > > > weaken the enemy and demoralize him. It will increase hostility and > > > make the population less willing to support the government. > > > > This is nonsense. I suspect the bin Laden want the U.S. to stop > > handing Israel billions of dollars a year in aid and weapons. Not > > bombing pharmecutical plants and lifting an embargo that kills > > hundreds of thousands (allegedly) of Iraqi women and children might be > > a nice move too. > > It's always amazing to see how stupid the responses are to various > messages. There seems to be no limit to the ignorance of the cypherpunks. There is certainly no limit to the stupidity of those who would try to twist our views to those of trolls, schills, and fools. Any two bit moron can tell us what we should think. I believe it is our responsability to point this out publically, and let others take notice that we are subtly manipulated by those with an agenda. If you are indeed the same anonymous troll (note: not that I believe anonymous remailers are bad!) who yesterday posted that cryptography was bad, that cypherpunks are responsible in any way shape or form with this terrorist act, that the DMCA and the like are good, my answer to you is still: Go fuck yourself. The terrorists have several agendas certainly. One of which is causing fear uncertainty and doubt. Sadly, there are reports that this is somewhat sucessful. I personally, do not and will not feel fear, uncertainty or doubt. I will not allow this event to cloud or otherwise alter the way in which I live. The only change in me, and again, I do not claim to speak for others, is that I feel rage towards them. I do not believe that any heightened security measures at airports or anywhere else will prevent this sort of thing from happening again. Previously, they had used guns, now they used knives, to hijack airplanes. Previously they have used car bombs. I do not believe they will continue to do the same because of the clampdowns. But it is silly to think that anything short of hunting these bastards down would stop them. Curtailing any of our freedoms is inherently a bad side effect, and mark my words, will not prevent further attacks. One good thing that comes out of this is the deployment of sky marshals as they are being called. Finally someone somewhere has sense enough to realize that "Gun" is not a four letter word and is necessary. But what happens when they manage to switch places with a sky marshal and thus have a vector of infiltration? Shouldn't the pilots, crew and yes, even passengers have guns? Again, I operate with the full and confident knowlege that 90+% of the population is good and law abiding. That allowing the public to be its own defender is by far more effective than disarming them. The one proven effective way to deal with them was displayed by the heros who rushed the cabin and forced the fourth plane down in Pittsburgh. We as a society have become too complacent, too much the sheeple. We must re-learn what the founders of this country knew. That liberty must be defended and fought for. With our lives. We must not restrict our freedoms, we must rather fight back with everything we've got. The terroristas' agenda may be one of revenge, FUD, economic collapse, and wishes to cause the public to force the government to change our policies towards Israel and interfearing in their countries. They do not wish us to tighten security, for that would work against them, but in a very real sense, if we do, we allow their acts to curtail our freedoms, and that is the only thing that separates our country's form of government from the Taliban run Afghanistan. Yes, we have more land, more resources, a better economy than they do. But our freedoms are key to this success as Soviet run Russia has shown. Freedom is what has made us prosperous, and if we curtail it, we march towards the evil that is totalitarianism regardless of which face it wears (monarchist, religeous, fascist, socialist, or communist.) Sure, it was a stupid idea for the USA to help create the state of Israel by taking land from Arabs that already hate Israelites and by placing it square in the center of said Arabs, of placing the lamb so it is surrounded by wolves. Sure it was stupid of the USA to train and arm these bastards* when they were called "Freedom fighters." But the stupidest thing we have done is to allow them to live and grow. Never let an enemy stand is the golden rule, and perhaps now we have learned it. When someone declares war on the USA, even if they're just a bunch of guys that live in tents and fuck camels for fun, they have shown that they are willing to cause us harm, and therefore must be exterminated - just as we would the government of a country that has declared war on us. Not by attacking their civilians, but by chopping down the heads of these groups. And further, I hope that the $24B dollars that the Fed's have given us in NYC will be used to rebuild a new World Trade Center with three such towers. They must see that if they knock down two towers, we will build three or four or even five bigger ones. Such a rebuilding effort would help our economy by itself. They must learn that they will not be able to weaken us, but rather strengthen us. These events were very low tech, very well planned, very inexpensive. It would not take a great deal of resources, it would not take anonymous remailers, cryptography, steganography, missles, tanks, bombs, or anything of the like to pull off. It proved that it didn't even take guns. It proved that the sheeple among us who have been crying out against guns, who have kicked our children out of schools for drawing pictures of their grandfathers in uniform fighting in WWI, Korea, Vietnam or WWII, who have berated and vilified cryptography, privacy, and liberty were mindless stupid sheep **. It proves that had we been allowed to carry guns openely and honestly, even in airplanes, that the bastard* terroristas would not have been able to pull this off. It proves that attacks on our freedoms are inherently wrong, and that they make us vulnerable against those who wish to harm us. One story I wish to add to my rant, when I was in elementry school, another kid had stabbed me in the arm with a sharpened pencil. No harm was done, but if it had been a knife the other kid would have been in deep shit. Even if we were to ban knives on air planes, what's to stop other terrorists from simply weilding sharpened pencils? A man with a gun, that's what! And what would stop a man with a gun from attacking mere unarmed citizens? Armed citizens, that's what! And what's to stop hacker terrorists from breaking into our banks? Strong well designed cryptographic protocols, that's what! Making laws against these technologies will do what? Weaken us and make us defenseless against these terror mongers, that's what! * It is hillarious to note that someone has actually bothered to email me on my use of the word "Bastard" claiming that she is a good person though her parents were out of wedlock at the time of her birth. I'm glad that the political correct police has the intestinal fortitude and brightness to place their priorities in order when something of this nature takes effect. I'm sure it will be of great comfort to the thousands that have died in these events that she has done her honorable act and attempted to set me straight on my use of language. Hopefully she has also done constructive things such as donating blood and money. ** I'm sure some other politically correct asshole will email me about how much he is in love with his flock of sheep after diddling them and how it would be wrong of me to blame sheep for those of us who act as cowardly sheep. From sunder at sunder.net Thu Sep 13 09:02:43 2001 From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 12:02:43 -0400 (edt) Subject: Cypherpunks and terrorism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Sep 2001, Nomen Nescio wrote: > Declan McCullagh writes: > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 06:00:46PM +0200, Nomen Nescio wrote: > > > Some terrorists have exactly this as their goal. They are hoping > > > to trigger a counter-reaction, an over-reaction, by the authorities. > > > They want to see a crackdown on liberties, a police state. This will > > > weaken the enemy and demoralize him. It will increase hostility and > > > make the population less willing to support the government. > > > > This is nonsense. I suspect the bin Laden want the U.S. to stop > > handing Israel billions of dollars a year in aid and weapons. Not > > bombing pharmecutical plants and lifting an embargo that kills > > hundreds of thousands (allegedly) of Iraqi women and children might be > > a nice move too. > > It's always amazing to see how stupid the responses are to various > messages. There seems to be no limit to the ignorance of the cypherpunks. There is certainly no limit to the stupidity of those who would try to twist our views to those of trolls, schills, and fools. Any two bit moron can tell us what we should think. I believe it is our responsability to point this out publically, and let others take notice that we are subtly manipulated by those with an agenda. If you are indeed the same anonymous troll (note: not that I believe anonymous remailers are bad!) who yesterday posted that cryptography was bad, that cypherpunks are responsible in any way shape or form with this terrorist act, that the DMCA and the like are good, my answer to you is still: Go fuck yourself. The terrorists have several agendas certainly. One of which is causing fear uncertainty and doubt. Sadly, there are reports that this is somewhat sucessful. I personally, do not and will not feel fear, uncertainty or doubt. I will not allow this event to cloud or otherwise alter the way in which I live. The only change in me, and again, I do not claim to speak for others, is that I feel rage towards them. I do not believe that any heightened security measures at airports or anywhere else will prevent this sort of thing from happening again. Previously, they had used guns, now they used knives, to hijack airplanes. Previously they have used car bombs. I do not believe they will continue to do the same because of the clampdowns. But it is silly to think that anything short of hunting these bastards down would stop them. Curtailing any of our freedoms is inherently a bad side effect, and mark my words, will not prevent further attacks. One good thing that comes out of this is the deployment of sky marshals as they are being called. Finally someone somewhere has sense enough to realize that "Gun" is not a four letter word and is necessary. But what happens when they manage to switch places with a sky marshal and thus have a vector of infiltration? Shouldn't the pilots, crew and yes, even passengers have guns? Again, I operate with the full and confident knowlege that 90+% of the population is good and law abiding. That allowing the public to be its own defender is by far more effective than disarming them. The one proven effective way to deal with them was displayed by the heros who rushed the cabin and forced the fourth plane down in Pittsburgh. We as a society have become too complacent, too much the sheeple. We must re-learn what the founders of this country knew. That liberty must be defended and fought for. With our lives. We must not restrict our freedoms, we must rather fight back with everything we've got. The terroristas' agenda may be one of revenge, FUD, economic collapse, and wishes to cause the public to force the government to change our policies towards Israel and interfearing in their countries. They do not wish us to tighten security, for that would work against them, but in a very real sense, if we do, we allow their acts to curtail our freedoms, and that is the only thing that separates our country's form of government from the Taliban run Afghanistan. Yes, we have more land, more resources, a better economy than they do. But our freedoms are key to this success as Soviet run Russia has shown. Freedom is what has made us prosperous, and if we curtail it, we march towards the evil that is totalitarianism regardless of which face it wears (monarchist, religeous, fascist, socialist, or communist.) Sure, it was a stupid idea for the USA to help create the state of Israel by taking land from Arabs that already hate Israelites and by placing it square in the center of said Arabs, of placing the lamb so it is surrounded by wolves. Sure it was stupid of the USA to train and arm these bastards* when they were called "Freedom fighters." But the stupidest thing we have done is to allow them to live and grow. Never let an enemy stand is the golden rule, and perhaps now we have learned it. When someone declares war on the USA, even if they're just a bunch of guys that live in tents and fuck camels for fun, they have shown that they are willing to cause us harm, and therefore must be exterminated - just as we would the government of a country that has declared war on us. Not by attacking their civilians, but by chopping down the heads of these groups. And further, I hope that the $24B dollars that the Fed's have given us in NYC will be used to rebuild a new World Trade Center with three such towers. They must see that if they knock down two towers, we will build three or four or even five bigger ones. Such a rebuilding effort would help our economy by itself. They must learn that they will not be able to weaken us, but rather strengthen us. These events were very low tech, very well planned, very inexpensive. It would not take a great deal of resources, it would not take anonymous remailers, cryptography, steganography, missles, tanks, bombs, or anything of the like to pull off. It proved that it didn't even take guns. It proved that the sheeple among us who have been crying out against guns, who have kicked our children out of schools for drawing pictures of their grandfathers in uniform fighting in WWI, Korea, Vietnam or WWII, who have berated and vilified cryptography, privacy, and liberty were mindless stupid sheep **. It proves that had we been allowed to carry guns openely and honestly, even in airplanes, that the bastard* terroristas would not have been able to pull this off. It proves that attacks on our freedoms are inherently wrong, and that they make us vulnerable against those who wish to harm us. One story I wish to add to my rant, when I was in elementry school, another kid had stabbed me in the arm with a sharpened pencil. No harm was done, but if it had been a knife the other kid would have been in deep shit. Even if we were to ban knives on air planes, what's to stop other terrorists from simply weilding sharpened pencils? A man with a gun, that's what! And what would stop a man with a gun from attacking mere unarmed citizens? Armed citizens, that's what! And what's to stop hacker terrorists from breaking into our banks? Strong well designed cryptographic protocols, that's what! Making laws against these technologies will do what? Weaken us and make us defenseless against these terror mongers, that's what! * It is hillarious to note that someone has actually bothered to email me on my use of the word "Bastard" claiming that she is a good person though her parents were out of wedlock at the time of her birth. I'm glad that the political correct police has the intestinal fortitude and brightness to place their priorities in order when something of this nature takes effect. I'm sure it will be of great comfort to the thousands that have died in these events that she has done her honorable act and attempted to set me straight on my use of language. Hopefully she has also done constructive things such as donating blood and money. ** I'm sure some other politically correct asshole will email me about how much he is in love with his flock of sheep after diddling them and how it would be wrong of me to blame sheep for those of us who act as cowardly sheep. From mdtate at IMAMORON.pacbell.net Thu Sep 13 12:04:29 2001 From: mdtate at IMAMORON.pacbell.net (M.D. Tate) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 12:04:29 -0700 Subject: Cypherpunks and terrorism Message-ID: <3BA1033D.5CB486B0@IMAMORON.pacbell.net> > It's always amazing to see how stupid the responses are to various > messages. There seems to be no limit to the ignorance of the cypherpunks. > > It is well known that this is a motivation for many terrorists. If you > will not believe it from an anonymous message, perhaps you will be > convinced by quotes from the two co-founders of the cypherpunks, both > of whom have said exactly the same thing in messages posted today: > > Tim May wrote in 1996 and reposted today: > > (yada yada yada. snip) > > There are two contrasting forces at the heart of the cypherpunk > philosophy, well exemplified by the two co-founders, and their messages > posted today show the difference well. > > The dark anger of May versus the bright hope of Hughes. Make your choice. > Stuff your false binary choice, I prefer to think for myself. It seems there is no limit to asininity of federal trolls. --- Sigs? We don' need no stinking sigs! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1168 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Thu Sep 13 12:06:30 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 12:06:30 -0700 Subject: U.S. hypocrisy about freedom of press in U.S.-hating countries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200109131908.f8DJ83f17097@slack.lne.com> On Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 09:43 AM, citizenQ wrote: > VIA CNN this AM: > (somewhat paraphrasing) > > Bush Sr., speaking to some corporate collection of cronies: "We'll also > have to look at this Internet thing you all know so much about, and > review our policies..." > > Gephardt: "We don't have to, we don't want to change the Constitution, > but there will need to be a shift in the balance between freedom and > security..." > > The planes have hit the towers but the shit has yet to hit the fan. > Perhaps we should rename the two towers First Amendment and Second Amendment. I've seen Congressvarmints complaining that the problem with countries around the world is that they "allow" too much free speech. (He was demanding that Egypt, Jordan, Israel, Syria, and Pakistan put a stop to the laughter and cheers of people celebrating the WTC and Pentagon events.) Some years ago I would have been shocked to hear U.S. officials calling for press crackdowns, but I have grown accustomed to this. The U.S. position in Sudan, Bosnia, etc. has been to _disarm_ ordinary farmers and merchants, to _control_ newspapers, and to institute random searches and seizures. They argue that the Bill of Rights obviously applies to U.S. citizens (or, they admit, maybe to non-citizens residents in the U.S. and its territories). This notion that the U.S. should press for disarmament of civilians, for press restrictions, for warrantless searches and seizures, and for other such things (*), all shows the utter hypocrisy of the U.S. It is rank hypocrisy for U.S. Congressmen to be calling for crackdowns on the press of other nations. No wonder they laugh when we are attacked. "Look on your works, ye mighty, and despair." --Tim May From dbob at semtex.com Thu Sep 13 12:12:45 2001 From: dbob at semtex.com (Dynamite Bob) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 12:12:45 -0700 Subject: U.S. Held Liable in '90 Kidnap Message-ID: <3BA1052D.96B1A4@semtex.com> http://latimes.com/news/local/la-000073744sep13.story?coll=la%2Dheadlines%2Dcalifornia U.S. Held Liable in '90 Kidnap Ruling: A court says the government-arranged abduction of a Mexican doctor sought in the murder of a DEA agent broke international law. By HENRY WEINSTEIN, TIMES LEGAL AFFAIRS WRITER For the first time, a federal appeals court has ruled that a U.S. government-instigated kidnapping of an individual from another country violates international human rights law and that violation can be redressed in a U.S. court. The 3-0 ruling this week by the U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco stems from the April 1990 abduction of Mexican physician Humberto Alvarez Machain. Alvarez had been indicted in Los Angeles three months earlier on charges that he was involved in the 1985 kidnapping and murder of U.S. DEA Agent Enrique Camarena in Guadalajara. The kidnapping occurred after the Mexican government refused to extradite Alvarez, who was later acquitted in the Camarena case. The decision Tuesday means that Alvarez is entitled to recover a limited amount of damages. The Justice Department, however, is likely to appeal the ruling. In an earlier case, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that Alvarez could be put on trial in the United States despite the fact that he had been brought here as a result of a kidnapping. U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration agents based in Los Angeles, using operatives in Mexico, orchestrated the kidnapping. The agency paid about $60,000 to several Mexicans who abducted the doctor and brought him to El Paso and then to Los Angeles, according to testimony by a DEA operative. In 1992 a federal judge here acquitted Alvarez, who was then permitted to return to Mexico--after more than two years of incarceration in the United States. Several other men have been convicted of involvement in the federal drug agent's murder and sentenced to long prison terms. The ruling Tuesday was praised by Los Angeles civil liberties lawyer Paul Hoffman, who has represented the doctor for more than a decade. "We have been fighting for a U.S. court to rule that a kidnapping like this was a violation of international law," Hoffman said. Justice Department attorney Robert Loeb said the agency is considering seeking a rehearing from a larger panel of 9th Circuit judges or appealing directly to the U.S. Supreme Court. Alvarez's kidnapping precipitated strained relations between the United States and Mexico and spawned considerable litigation. The decision this week evolved from a federal damage suit that Alvarez filed in Los Angeles a year after he was acquitted on the criminal charges. Alvarez, now 53, sued the U.S. government; DEA agents in Los Angeles and Washington; Francisco Sosa, a former Mexican policeman; and five other Mexican nationals, all of whom are now in the U.S. witness protection program. The case involves important and complicated issues involving how far the government can go in attempting to apprehend a suspect abroad. On most of the major issues, the appeals court ruled against the United States. In one of the most significant parts of the decision, the 9th Circuit rejected the government's claim that as a sovereign nation it was immune from such a suit. "The government admits that it knew of and acquiesced in the plan to kidnap Alvarez and bring him to the United States," Judge Alfred T. Goodwin wrote in a decision joined by jurists Mary M. Schroeder and Samuel P. King. "Sosa performed the search to assist the DEA agents. Sosa had no individual interest in kidnapping Alvarez other than to curry favor with the DEA agents in the hopes that they would reward him. Therefore, because Sosa acted merely as an agent or instrument for 'law enforcement officers,' the United States has waived sovereign immunity," the appellate judges said. These conclusions were praised by an attorney who filed a friend-of-the-court brief on behalf of several human rights groups. "The 9th Circuit decision is significant because it recognizes that international law applies to the United States government," said California Western School of Law professor William J. Aceves. The 9th Circuit also rejected the government's argument that the DEA has the power to implement U.S. law overseas even if it overrides international law. "If this assertion [by the government] is an accurate statement of United States law, then it reinforces the critics of American imperialism in the international community," wrote Goodwin, an appointee of President Gerald Ford. The court also ruled that "Alvarez's kidnapping violated his right to freedom of movement, to remain in his country and to security in his person, which are part of the 'law of nations.' " Moreover, the court ruled, the United States is liable under the Federal Tort Claims Act for a "false arrest," the basic law that permits a person to file personal injury claims against the federal government or its agents. The appeals court sent the case back to U.S. District Judge Stephen V. Wilson for a determination of the government's monetary liability. In earlier proceedings, Alvarez was awarded $25,000 against Sosa, a ruling that Sosa appealed unsuccessfully. The 9th Circuit upheld Alvarez's right to recover against Sosa under the Alien Tort Claims Act, a law enacted in 1789 which permits a foreigner to sue for damages in a U.S. court. Sosa's attorney, Charles S. Leeper of Washington, D.C., said he was disturbed by "the court's conclusion that Alvarez's detention in Mexico was arbitrary and unlawful and that he is entitled to damages for that." Leeper added, "We are especially troubled by the court's conclusion that U.S. law enforcement agents have to obtain a warrant or permission from foreign countries harboring fugitives or other individuals for whom warrants have been issued in the U.S." The 9th Circuit upheld Wilson's ruling that Alvarez can recover damages only for the brief period--about 24 hours--that he was detained in Mexico, not for the 2 1/2 years he was in U.S. custody. From ingo.wies at aral.net Thu Sep 13 05:13:06 2001 From: ingo.wies at aral.net (ingo.wies at aral.net) Date: 13 Sep 2001 12:13:06 UT Subject: Offer 09-13-01 Message-ID: <00009211.3BA0BEEE@smtp.aral.net> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ You are getting this Newsletter because of our existing business relationship, you have subscribed to our newsletter or because of your price requests. 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Thank You! =============================================================== From freematt at coil.com Thu Sep 13 09:19:10 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 12:19:10 -0400 Subject: Let's launch an 'all-armed, all-smoking' airline Message-ID: From gbroiles at well.com Thu Sep 13 12:42:55 2001 From: gbroiles at well.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 12:42:55 -0700 Subject: Cypherpunks and terrorism In-Reply-To: <8c2b38b80588587f64cdbcb85eae4dc1@dizum.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010913121539.03c55050@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 09:10 PM 9/13/2001 +0200, Nomen Nescio wrote: >The fact is, crypto as we know it is a luxury. It didn't even exist ten >years ago. None of the crypto tools we use did. We can hardly make a >case that banning or restricting access to them will send us back into >the stone age. > >Please, let's end these spurious arguments that providers of crypto tools >are no different than the people who make the metal in the airplane wings. >There's a big difference, which anyone with an ounce of sense can see. >Banning airplanes is not an option. Banning crypto is. I get the impression that our anonymous correspondent Nomen Nescio (n.b., "nomen nescio" is Latin for "I do not know the the name") is suffering from overexposure to academic discussion, which leads (in some cases) to the impression that the world is full of important policy questions patiently awaiting discussion and analysis ad infinitum (and ad nauseum) by anyone who cares to play Socrates today - and that, pending resolution of irresolvable questions, no action shall be taken, and ongoing activities frozen, until perfect consensus can be reached or a widely-acclaimed policy can be drafted. I propose that this sort of discussion - about whether or not, in the face of violence and tragedy, some aspect of human freedom and expression can be suitably "justified" to satisfy every self-appointed devil's advocate - is absolutely unproductive and serves only to suck energy and concentration from more interesting projects. I don't know (and don't care) if Nomen is an authentic participant in cypherpunks, a nom-de-plume of another subscriber used to advance unpopular arguments (perhaps in hopes of eliciting stronger arguments in favor of that person's real beliefs), an agent provocateur, or something else .. Nomen's internal state is unimportant. The effect of his/her messages is to create a swamp of self-referential argument and discussion which advances nothing; and I suggest that we'd all do well to learn to ignore Nomen as many of us do Choate (and Vulis and Detweiler in times past.) Accordingly, I will not answer Nomen's arguments or questions, but report that I have succeeded in compiling Mixmaster 2.9beta23 on the FreeBSD 4.4 release candidate, and in concert with other cpunks, am putting together a 2.9beta24 package which includes a number of patches recently circulated. We have assembled and are testing an installation of that new release on a well-connected machine in a favorable jurisdiction, with more "hardened" remailer installations on the way. I haven't had any luck yet with OpenBSD (despite helpful messages from two correspondents regarding IDEA and OpenSSL integration) but work on that subject continues. The remailers will not be shut down without a fight - on the net and in the courtrooms. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at well.com "We have found and closed the thing you watch us with." -- New Delhi street kids From baptista at pccf.net Thu Sep 13 09:43:55 2001 From: baptista at pccf.net (!Dr. Joe Baptista) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 12:43:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MARTIAL LAW Cypherpunks and terrorism In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010913005649.020596f0@mail.well.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Sep 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > At 09:57 PM 9/12/01 -0400, !Dr. Joe Baptista wrote: > > >That's not an answer - thats an interview with little details. > > If you look at the links from that page, you'll see it's actually an > extraordinary lengthy interview that details bin Ladin's "demands." Basic > searches will turn up far more information; my point was that information > is out there and people should not be expect to be fed it. Well I've looked at it carefully and all I see is links to more nonsense. Let me explain this to you and hopefully provide you a well earned education. This is a picture of a child - just one out of hundreds that we evacuated to Canada from Afganistan during the russian occupation of Afganistan. http://www.pccf.net/bod/jb/misc/MCLEOD07.html I don't remember his name - like I said we handled hundreds of these kids. But this little boy is just one of many who were subjected to the russian idea of how to win a war. You may remember Declan that the russians at the time were losing the war against the afganis and they resorted to building bombs which looked like toys. The idea was to drop these bomb-toys in the hope of maiming and injuring afganis children with the ultimate hope of demoralizing the population through the victimization of their children. It did not work - but the scars are real - and damage was done. This child was lucky - after years of reconstructive surgery at the Hotel Deu hospital in Kingston Ontario he was able to walk normally again. Now I should stress the American Military at the time was instrumental in assisting us in evacuating these children and by default we saved many lives. Osama Bin Ladin and the Fatwa are of no significance to what happened in america. They are the symbols of a struggle that has been going on for many years. A struggle against oppression and planned genocide in which the United States has been a significant contributor and supporter. i.e. Israel's oppression of the palestinians, i.e. south africa, i.e. east timor etc. etc. etc. Arabs are by default very nobel, trustworthy and honourable people. But they are not cows. They will not bow their heads as their civilization is brutalized and raped. They will fight back with the vengence that is the holy jihad. Kill Osama Bin Ladin and you create another arab saint and many more holy warriors take his place. That is the nature of the beast. The terror we saw in new york and washington this week is the harvest of many years of seed planting by the US government. It represents the response of a people who have been opressed and lied to for years by a US government which claims to support the virtues of freedom and democracy yet funds terror on a world wide basis for no better reason then to make a profit. Again I say that these men who were responsible for this terror acted as judge jury and executioners. And the verdict of this self appointed inquisition was the terror we saw this week and which will be with us for many more years. And I still say to you that the reasons and the question of why this was done have yet to be provided to us. regards joe -- Joe Baptista http://www.dot-god.com/ The dot.GOD Registry, Limited The Executive Plaza, Suite 908 150 West 51st Street Tel: 1 (208) 330-4173 Manhattan Island NYC 10019 USA Fax: 1 (208) 293-9773 From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Thu Sep 13 05:57:26 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 12:57:26 +0000 Subject: Shades of X-Files Message-ID: <200109131257.f8DCvQ004409@mailserver1.hushmail.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 360 bytes Desc: not available URL: From eh at speakeasy.net Thu Sep 13 13:03:32 2001 From: eh at speakeasy.net (Eric Hughes) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 13:03:32 -0700 Subject: A Call for a Chorus of Voices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010913115423.03945830@pop.speakeasy.net> 2001 September 13 A Call for a Chorus of Voices To All Who Would Defend Liberty and Freedom: Yesterday I wrote an open letter to all my fellow citizens. Today I write to all those who would defend liberty, on-line and everywhere else, from the looming threat of demagoguery that now hangs over us all. This morning I arose from my sleep with two realizations. First, that I would have changed the title of my letter had I thought about it. This has been pointed out by others. Second, that yesterday was the ninth anniversary of the first cypherpunks meeting; I had not realized this in the moment. When I began to write yesterday's letter, I had in mind to write a different letter than the one that thence I wrote. I had first intended a message to you my comrades, but in the moment I started typing I began to cry, because I had been struck as if by an external blow with the realization of whom I wanted to address. It was difficult for me to touch the well of my sincerity, because I have been and yet remain deeply cynical about my country, my government, and the particularly resilient propaganda of our media in the image of democracy. I had written only the title before I was overcome. For now the next phase of the work has commenced for which cypherpunks was preparation. The goal to affix into our society a bodiless ability to hide has greatly been achieved, yet the nascent robustness of these systems is as yet fragile. Our institutions do not yet breathe the ethos of individual liberty without supplemental air. The threat is not unique, however, and the task at hand is wider than our own concerns. As personal ability is bound up in technology, the technologies of which my friends and I have been so fond are but a section a larger movement, the movement to a democracy more about the "demos" than the "kratein", more about the people than the ruling. I shall not enumerate these trends into which cypherpunks so neatly fits. We are at a juncture in the road of our culture, whether to pursue the path of safety by limiting the individual and ignoring their desires or to pursue the path of safety by strengthening the individual and working out a new commons of desire. We cannot choose both; they are mutually hostile to each other in spirit and in practice. Our response to this week's terrorism will mark the proclivities of our future course. I have been challenged to write a narrow essay on privacy particularly. I regret to say that I cannot. My heart is elsewhere, and I have moved from privacy alone as a tool for my aspirations. I could not be as eloquent about privacy in isolation, because in truth I see no longer the isolation in which I was previously so comfortable. And thus I call for a chorus of voices to ring out and to proclaim the welter of specific consequences of walking down the path of individual liberty. My heart has been full in reading the spontaneous upwelling of sentiment from Perry Metzger, Sean Hastings, Matt Blaze, and Blanc Weber. Add to these your own voice, your own words, your own concerns. I seek the vision of a harmonious chorus without director, a single message rising in many throats, the motive wheel without a center. Speak about whatever you will, but speak true and speak from the heart. There are enough whose hearts are privacy and anonymity that I have nothing but faith that chorus shall contain enough of those voices. My heart is with you all, even though I shall not lead the charge. To touch one's own true voice may need the passage through ordeal, yet persevere, for everyone can find it. May peace arise from you all, and may the power of your souls become manifest in your deeds. Eric Hughes [Please feel free to post this at will.] From righter at therighter.com Thu Sep 13 12:15:35 2001 From: righter at therighter.com (Sarah Thompson) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 13:15:35 -0600 Subject: [righter] Response to Suicide Bombings Message-ID: The following was originally sent to the Utah Gun Owners Alliance email list. Utah Gun Owners Alliance joins with all Utahns and all Americans in mourning the terrible tragedies that occurred yesterday. Our thoughts and prayers go out to the dead, the injured, and their families - and to our elected leaders who will be making some difficult decisions in the days and months ahead. While we feel obligated to point out that much of the carnage could have been prevented by armed citizens, law enforcement officers, or sky marshals, we also believe that there are no simplistic solutions to terrorism. Remember that ordinary ammunition is considered hazardous on an airplane because it will penetrate the hull and lead to depressurization. And firing a gun in an extremely cramped and crowded plane also risks injury to innocent passengers. More relevant is the fact that Americans have been indoctrinated to be good victims. We're told over and over again that we should never resist criminals, that we should passively submit to being robbed, raped, mugged, or hijacked. Women's centers teach women not to fight back, even though fighting back with a firearm is the most effective way to avoid injury. Employers require their employees to be disarmed, and to agree to whatever a criminal demands. Those of us who are willing to take responsibility for our own safety are shunned, persecuted, and generally made to feel like second class citizens who are not welcome in "civilized society". The reason that a few hijackers armed only with knives and box cutters were able to murder tens of thousands of innocent people is less a problem of physically disarmed passengers, and more a problem of psychologically disarmed passengers. Had the passengers been taught that fighting back is the honorable and appropriate response to thugs, things would likely have turned out differently. It now appears that this is exactly what happened on the flight that crashed in Pennsylvania - the passengers attempted to subdue the hijackers. They gave their lives, but prevented the deaths of countless others, and the possible destruction of Camp David, the White House or the Capitol. They upheld our proud tradition of American heroism. In a pinch, pocket knives, cell phones, pens, books, laptop computers, keys, etc. can all be used as weapons. All that's needed is the will and courage to fight back. We do not say this to dishonor the dead, who almost certainly had no idea of what the terrorists planned. We're sure that had they known, they would have willingly sacrificed their lives to save thousands of others. We will probably never know how many heroic people did exactly that. But we must resolve - right here, right now - that we will stop our idolatrous worship of safety above all else, and return to the values of individual responsibility, community responsibility, courage, and resistance to evil that made our nation great. In the days and months ahead, we expect to see unprecedented attacks on our G-d given rights - not just the right to keep and bear arms, but the rights of free speech, of assembly, of privacy, of travel, and of due process. We expect to see calls for more gun control, more Carnivore type surveillance of the internet, more wiretaps and surveillance of cell phone traffic, more warrantless searches and seizures, more face recognition technology, more fingerprinting, more restrictions on peaceful assembly, and increasing demands for some sort of high-tech method to track everything each and every person does. We must have the courage to oppose these attacks on our rights. We cannot preserve our freedom by destroying it. If we allow the acts of vicious criminals to turn the United States into a police state, they will have won, and we will lose everything. Nearly 250 years ago, Benjamin Franklin wrote: "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety". Yesterday, President Bush said: "America was targeted for attack because we're the brightest beacon for freedom and opportunity in the world. And no one will keep that light from shining." We pray he keeps his word. Not only must we not give up our essential liberty for false promises of safety, we must ensure that our nation remains that "brightest beacon for freedom". Utah Gun Owners Alliance suggests the following: Write to your Congressman, Senators, and state legislators and let them know that you are not willing to sacrifice your liberty for promises of safety, and that you expect them to protect and defend our Constitution and Bill of Rights. Also let them know that so long as our government protects our liberties, we will support them 100% in the difficult days ahead. Check your preparedness status. Do you have adequate food, water, medical supplies, lighting, batteries, radios, and self defense equipment should you need them? We're not trying to be alarmist here, but we think citizens have the obligation to be prepared to be useful and self sufficient in time of crisis, rather than becoming additional burdens on social services. Fly your flag! It's simple, free, shows your support for our country, and will encourage your neighbors to get into the patriotic spirit. If you're in good enough health to donate blood, please give the gift of life. Also consider donating to the religious and charitable organizations that are helping victims. The American Red Cross web site has a lot of information at www.redcross.org Don't stoop to hatred based on anyone's nationality, ethnicity or religion. Justice is the most noble of human endeavors. Bigotry is not. Don't let terrorists define our nation, and make sure that those who died did not die in vain! Pray for wisdom, courage, and strength for the injured, the families of victims, President Bush, our Congress, and all Americans. May G-d bless America, land of the FREE, home of the BRAVE. Copyright 2001 Sarah Thompson, M.D. Subscribe to "The Righter", an intermittent column focusing on civil liberties and individual action. To subscribe please use the form at Permission to distribute granted so long as no changes are made and this message is included. ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************** From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Thu Sep 13 05:23:32 2001 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 13:23:32 +0100 Subject: low tech, high concept References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010913000057.01c6fac0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: <3BA0A544.C53F8633@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Reese wrote: > > For those who prattle about massive planning for this attack on those > Way Too Crumbly buildings: > > > > Low tech High concept attack. You could use Microsoft Flight sim 2 to learn > how to fly a 767. I have a plastic knife made by Glock that is very sharp. > You could use the internet and Travelocity .com to book the appropriately > flights. I think that it was executed very well. My hats off to who ever > did this, but in my other hand is my 1911. > > > > There is one brain behind all this. Find it and barbecue it on skewers, > along with whoever and whatever fosters its existence. Someone in Another Place posted this link: http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/336291/ Ken Brown apparently posted on 2000.11.30: "When the two towers that make up the World Trade Center were built, they were designed to withstand the impact of the largest airliner of the day, the Boeing 707 Intercontinental. The Empire State Building survived a B-25 medium bomber crashing into it on very foggy day. It was during the weekend when most people weren't there, but still, 14 people died. Anyone wanna bet that the World Trade Center could survive an 767-300 impact?" and follow-up thread including stuff like: "if a 707 or a 757 slammed into the World Trade Center, it might be much more damaging than the case of the B-25 bomber that crashed into the Empire State Building. For one thing, unlike the Empire State Building, which has more heavy concrete, the World Trade Center is made more of steel and glass - this may mean far greater structural damage due to the impact and flying glass shards and debris raining down on the people below. There could be a possibility of toppling if the 707 or the 757 came in at a high enough speed. Both of these planes arelarger and heavier than a B-25 bomber, so this means a greater force of impact. I'm no expert on building structure or air crashes, but it would no doubt be far worse than the Empire State Building disaster. It is very doubtful any passengers or crew would have survived such a grim scenario. Also, there are probably more people per floor in the World Trade Center compared to the Empire State Building, so casualties in the building will likely be much higher. However, I wouldn't be surprised if the authorities would have a strict exclusion zone preventing any large airplanes, especially commercial airliners, from getting too close to Manhattan, so that there would be no repeat of the Empire State Building crash. Other large buildings have been crashed into by large airliners, like the El Al 747-200F that crashed into an apartment complex in Amsterdam several years ago. There was a small Cessna plane that crashed into a hospital in Edmonton, the city where I live. This was in the early 1980s, and did prompt fears about larger planes crashing right in the middle of Edmonton. The hospital sits right underneath the approach path to the City Centre Airport. It was quoted in the news by a member of the city council that "one day a 737 will slam into the hospital, and that will be it". Edmonton City Centre Airport (formerly the Municipal Airport) did used to have quite a few 737s and BAe 146s flying in and out of there until 1995, when it was closed to most scheduled flights. This airport sits only a few kilometres north of downtown Edmonton, so it is well within the built up areas. There are risks when you have an airport like Kai Tak(now closed) or Love Field in Dallas, TX served by larger airliners the size of a 737 or larger and sitting well within an urban area. Believe me, it's amazing that Kai Tak has never had a disaster like that, considering that Hong Kong has so many skyscrapers so near the airport - and that Hong Kong is one of the most densely populated cities in the world. " From freematt at coil.com Thu Sep 13 10:38:02 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 13:38:02 -0400 Subject: The WTC was designed by the late Minoru Yamasaki Message-ID: From lizard at mrlizard.com Thu Sep 13 13:46:16 2001 From: lizard at mrlizard.com (lizard) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 13:46:16 -0700 Subject: CNN Using 1991 Footage of Celebrating Palestinians? References: Message-ID: <3BA11B18.573ED501@mrlizard.com> Matthew Gaylor wrote: > > CNN Using 1991 Footage of Celebrating Palestinians > > Can anyone verify this? > > http://www.indymedia.org.il/imc/israel/webcast/display.php3?article_id=6946 > Reading through the following comments, it seems unlikely. Possible, but unlikely. The evidence, at this point, consists of an obviously anti-US poster referring to an unnamed Professor with an unseen tape. That's pretty low on the rely-o-meter. I won't say it's impossible, but I want a better source. From aimee.farr at pobox.com Thu Sep 13 12:29:50 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 14:29:50 -0500 Subject: Cypherpunk Threat Analysis (scramble near Crawford) In-Reply-To: <200109131853.f8DIrff16933@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com]On > Behalf Of Tim May > Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 1:52 PM > To: cypherpunks at lne.com > Subject: Re: Cypherpunk Threat Analysis > > > On Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 08:39 AM, Aimee Farr wrote: > > > For the sick people in here that like to call for TNA's (target name and > > address) for judicial officials etc. > > > > -- > > NLECTC Law Enforcement & Corrections Technology News Summary > > Thursday, September 13, 2001 > > -- > > "Technological Advances in Assessing Threats to Judicial > > Officials" > > Sheriff (08/01) Vol. 53, No. 4, P. 34; Calhoun, Frederick S. > > > > The majority of sheriff offices throughout the country > > assign personnel to handle threats made to judges according > > to which situations pose the greatest risks. Los Angeles > > > I wonder why Agent Farr warns about our list "tolerating" bomb > discussions, and then posts her own provocateur bomb discussions. Did not. > I wonder why Agent Farr refers to the "sick people in here" who cite > names of LEAs and then makes a point to cite LEA persons by _name_. *rolls eyes* > Agent Farr arrived from _nowhere_ just after the election last year, > with no previous detectable online interests, on half a dozen of the > most "controversial" mailing lists and discussion groups. She began > baiting and provoking, and when that failed, starting her own "Bomb Law > Reporter" and attempting to entrap discussion group participants in what > she has claimed are "dangerous" activities. No. > She has recently claimed that our failure to support Big > Brother-friendly networks makes us equivalent to the WTC actors. Did not. > The witch hunt began a long time ago, but it has taken on new dimensions > recently. Expect to see the real Agent Farr, who is very probably not > named "Aimee" in real life, testifying before Congress on his > "undercover" operations to shut down the Cypherpunks, PGP, and > Extropians lists. > > --Tim May Oh yes, Cypherpunks, PGP and Extropians....the heart of darkness....Whoo...big fish in here. I don't work for Uncle. BTW, big event skyward over my house this a.m. -- rumor is a private aircraft near Bush Ranch. Got a scramble. Flyboys tore up the sky for a good hour this morning. Shrwooooooom!!! Shrwwoooooooom!!!! ~Aimee From tcmay at got.net Thu Sep 13 14:35:12 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 14:35:12 -0700 Subject: Congress mulls crypto restrictions in response to attacks In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010913165643.021f2c30@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <200109132136.f8DLaof18416@slack.lne.com> On Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 01:58 PM, Declan McCullagh wrote: > http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,46816,00.html > > Congress Mulls Stiff Crypto Laws > By Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com) > 1:45 p.m. Sep. 13, 2001 PDT > > WASHINGTON -- The encryption wars have begun. > > For nearly a decade, privacy mavens have been worrying that a > terrorist attack could prompt Congress to ban > communications-scrambling products that frustrate both police > wiretaps > and U.S. intelligence agencies. > > Tuesday's catastrophe, which shed more blood on American soil than > any > event since the Civil War, appears to have started that process. > > Some politicians and defense hawks are warning that extremists such > as > Osama bin Laden, who U.S. officials say is a crypto-aficionado and > the > top suspect in Tuesday's attacks, enjoy unfettered access to > privacy-protecting software and hardware that render their > communications unintelligible to eavesdroppers. > > In a floor speech on Thursday, Sen. Judd Gregg (R-New Hampshire) > called for a global prohibition on encryption products without > backdoors for government surveillance. This is the main reason it is ESSENTIAL that the "rest of the world" NOT (repeat NOT) support the U.S. in their upcoming actions against the likely WTC terrorists. If Russia, China, India, Pakistan, the Arab countries, and of course the European nations "sign on," this will truly usher in a New World Order. Strong crypto will be banned so quickly our heads will spin (those of us not already arrested and dealt with). I have no idea how to derail this freight train that is beginning to gather speed. Dark times are coming. I'll bet a complete ban on strong, unescrowed crypto is passed in all European countries, Russia, China, Japan, and the U.S. by, say, December 15th. Congresscriminals are stumbling over their feet in their race to repeal big chunks of the Bill of Rights. For most countries, with no real Bills of Rights, the statists will use this to cement their own power. Dark times. --Tim May From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Thu Sep 13 14:36:14 2001 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 14:36:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Ending States That Support Terrorism" Message-ID: <200109132136.f8DLaF003594@artifact.psychedelic.net> Anyone have the list of countries that Bush is planning on scheduling for termination? I would imagine Afganistan and Iraq are the first two. Will he toss in Syria, Sudan, and Libya as well? It looks like the game that is being played here, is that all countries are being given an opportunity to pledge unconditional support and cooperation for Bush's "War" against those rendering aid to terrorism, now declared to be the primary focus of his administration, and whoever declines will constitute the enemy. Pakistan has even climbed aboard, in the hopes that we won't drop any bombs on them on our way to Afganistan. Of course, they must prove their loyalty by cutting off Afganistan's oil and gas, and permitting us to base our troops there. Isn't playing these sorts of games with Saudi Arabia, the location of Islam's most sacred sites, the reason Osama bin Laden is mad at the US to begin with? Is this how Hitler started? While all of this is transpiring, a smirking Ariel Sharon, the war criminal elected by acclaimation, will be taking more of the Palestinians' land. So when's the Congress going to outlaw encryption? I assume we'll all be expected to make such small sacrifices for the larger good. We're all supposed to fly American flags for the next 30 days to show our support for all of this. I wonder if they'll be taking names. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From wdhlyj6 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 13 14:53:40 2001 From: wdhlyj6 at yahoo.com (wdhlyj6 at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 14:53:40 Subject: PC HomeWorker Message-ID: <200109130653.XAA07624@toad.com> Would you like to work at home ? PC HomeWorker process orders from your own home! All you need is a PC, Email, and quality printer! Email pcwkd14 at yahoo.com with 'more info'' in subject line for more information This is a one time mailing. To be removed, reply to wdhlyj6 at yahoo.com with REMOVE in the subject line. ____________________________________________________________ This message has been sent with an unregistered copy of HotCast Mass E-Mailer. < < This notice doesn't appear on the registered version > > From freematt at coil.com Thu Sep 13 12:05:03 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 15:05:03 -0400 Subject: American Muslims being attacked and harassed Message-ID: Unfortunately I've been getting reports from around the US of American Muslims being attacked and harassed. If you want to stay on top of the latest news I recommend that you subscribe to The Muslim Student Association News mailing list (MSANEWS). The list is fairly high volume, but does contain most of the news and perspectives from the Muslim and Islamic communities worldwide. To subscribe, send e-mail to: with the message body "subscribe MSANEWS Firstname Lastname". MSANEWS Home Page: Comments to the Editors: Submissions for MSANEWS: Problems with subscription: Regards, Matt- ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************** From citizenQ at ziplip.com Thu Sep 13 15:06:47 2001 From: citizenQ at ziplip.com (citizenQ) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 15:06:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ignore Aimee Farr (was RE: Cypherpunk Threat Analysis ) Message-ID: Tim - Behavioral psychologists will tell you that the best way to extinguish an undesirable behavior is to IGNORE it. If Farr's posturings and baitings are truly to be made ineffective, the best course of action amongst the cpunks who care is to killfile the postings and refuse to engage on ANY level. Rising to the bait, debating whether such-and-such a purpose is behind Farr's postings, speculating on Farr's true intent, all this does is spur on the postings, the baiting, the provocation. Just say "no" to responding to ANY of Farr's postings, and I would almost put money that the behavior will extinguish within a week. On Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 08:39 AM, Aimee Farr wrote: > For the sick people in here that like to call for TNA's (target name and > address) for judicial officials etc. > > -- > NLECTC Law Enforcement & Corrections Technology News Summary > Thursday, September 13, 2001 > -- > "Technological Advances in Assessing Threats to Judicial > Officials" > Sheriff (08/01) Vol. 53, No. 4, P. 34; Calhoun, Frederick S. > > The majority of sheriff offices throughout the country > assign personnel to handle threats made to judges according > to which situations pose the greatest risks. Los Angeles I wonder why Agent Farr warns about our list "tolerating" bomb discussions, and then posts her own provocateur bomb discussions. I wonder why Agent Farr refers to the "sick people in here" who cite names of LEAs and then makes a point to cite LEA persons by _name_. Agent Farr arrived from _nowhere_ just after the election last year, with no previous detectable online interests, on half a dozen of the most "controversial" mailing lists and discussion groups. She began baiting and provoking, and when that failed, starting her own "Bomb Law Reporter" and attempting to entrap discussion group participants in what she has claimed are "dangerous" activities. She has recently claimed that our failure to support Big Brother-friendly networks makes us equivalent to the WTC actors. The witch hunt began a long time ago, but it has taken on new dimensions recently. Expect to see the real Agent Farr, who is very probably not named "Aimee" in real life, testifying before Congress on his "undercover" operations to shut down the Cypherpunks, PGP, and Extropians lists. --Tim May From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Thu Sep 13 15:23:48 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 15:23:48 -0700 Subject: \"Ending States That Support Terrorism\" Message-ID: <200109132223.f8DMNmw26762@mailserver1.hushmail.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 908 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sandfort at mindspring.com Thu Sep 13 15:31:09 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 15:31:09 -0700 Subject: Cypherpunks and terrorism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Nomen Nescio" wrote: > It is at exactly this time that soul > searching is most appropriate. Now is > when you should ask yourself: Am I > doing the right thing? Am I making the > world a better place? > > You don't have to convince some devil's > advocate. Just convince yourself. "Nomen" assumes facts not in evidence. Those of us who have been on Cypherpunks for years--including Greg--have already done that appropriate "soul searching." It is because we have come to the conclusion that we are making the world a better place, that we support strong crypto. "Nomen's" moral uncertainty sounds like a personal problem to me. S a n d y From freematt at coil.com Thu Sep 13 12:35:20 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 15:35:20 -0400 Subject: Sarah Thompson M.D.'s Response to Suicide Bombings Message-ID: [Note from Matthew Gaylor: Sarah Thompson is a psychiatrist in Salt Lake City] From dog3 at ns.charc.net Thu Sep 13 12:39:45 2001 From: dog3 at ns.charc.net (cubic-dog) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 15:39:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MARTIAL LAW Cypherpunks and terrorism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Sep 2001, !Dr. Joe Baptista wrote: > Arabs are by default very nobel, trustworthy and honourable people. But > they are not cows. They will not bow their heads as their civilization is > brutalized and raped. They will fight back with the vengence that is > the holy jihad. Not too sure, I certainly agree that these folks are not "cows", but as to rising up in arms when provoked, that takes a specific type. An example would be the so called silent majority of gun owners in America, all of whom expressed outrage over Ruby Ridge, and then later, Waco. A lot of these folks, if you follow the boards, bbses in those days, claimed that after then president G.Bush Sr's assault weapons ban, that further action on behalf of the feds would predicate a call to arms. Well, they all stood by as these events unfolded, and they stood by as the "fed" whitewashed all of it recently. > Kill Osama Bin Ladin and you create another arab saint and many more holy > warriors take his place. That is the nature of the beast. Back to the previous analogy, The silent majority of gun owners had a Bin Ladin in Timmy McVea. They backed away from him as fast as possible after the bombing, and no new Timmy has stepped up to take his place. So, in my ignorance, I think that a few extremists basically screw up the dialogue for everyone involved, the sooner these folks are out of the equation, the better for all parties. I think a lot of "victims of American Policy" believe this as well. It was different for the last 8 years when the commander in chief lacked resolve and seriously emboldened many forigen enemies. These "surgical" air strikes do little more than really piss folks off. A "war" has to be won on the ground. I think there is a certain level of resolve that has galvanised over these last few days. I expect that action, when taken, will be pretty decisive. As to your other points, I belive they are well stated, I just disagree. From dog3 at ns.charc.net Thu Sep 13 12:51:43 2001 From: dog3 at ns.charc.net (cubic-dog) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 15:51:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Cypherpunks and terrorism In-Reply-To: <8c2b38b80588587f64cdbcb85eae4dc1@dizum.com> Message-ID: > Many people have made this point, but it is so fundamentally wrong that > it's hard to believe that anyone takes it seriously. No one really does. > Paper, and metal, and knives, and airplanes, and all the other things > which have been compared to anonymity tools, are different in one major > respect: it would be an inconceivable hardship to ban them. > > Can we really say the same thing about cryptography? About steganography > tools? About the anonymous mail services which bin Laden has been > reported to have used (yesterday on TV it was mentioned several times)? What you are really talking about when you talk about cryptography is privacy, is individuality, is self determination. Certainly commerce wouldnt' grind to halt if these trivialities were dispensed with. After all, Commerce really is what it is all about isn't it? With the supreme court of the us making judgements on what is good for the consumer, now that the old term taxpayer,or even the arcane term citizen no longer applies. > Would commerce grind to a halt if we didn't have anonymous remailers? > Of course not. The same with PGP and SSL and other crypto technologies > that are available to everyone. > > The fact is, crypto as we know it is a luxury. It didn't even exist ten > years ago. Many things "didn't exist" 10 years ago. The real ability to completely and totally enumerate and track every single transaction and action of every single person and store them to be used if not right away to punish immoral acts, at least keep them on file so that it can be done when the incarceration system gets streamlined. I've heard many calls for complete biometric id systems to be put in place for airline access over the last few days. With such a system, why just use it for gov building access and airports? Why not for banks, 7/11 phone cards, groceries, rent payment etc ad whatever. As more and more trangressions become felonised, and more and crimes become federalised, soon we should be able to deny anything to anyone on pretty much a whim. Governments go bad. Many believe governments are bad period. Hence, crypto. It is the only technological response to a technological society. > None of the crypto tools we use did. We can hardly make a > case that banning or restricting access to them will send us back into > the stone age. > > Please, let's end these spurious arguments that providers of crypto tools > are no different than the people who make the metal in the airplane wings. > There's a big difference, which anyone with an ounce of sense can see. > Banning airplanes is not an option. Banning crypto is. From goodell at mediaone.net Thu Sep 13 13:00:57 2001 From: goodell at mediaone.net (Howie Goodell) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 16:00:57 -0400 Subject: Cypherpunks and terrorism References: <8c2b38b80588587f64cdbcb85eae4dc1@dizum.com> Message-ID: <3BA11079.1E7E5BCB@mediaone.net> Nomen Nescio wrote: > The fact is, crypto as we know it is a luxury. It didn't even exist ten years ago. None of the crypto tools we use did. We can hardly make a case that banning or restricting access to them will send us back into the stone age. > Please, let's end these spurious arguments that providers of crypto tools are no different than the people who make the metal in the airplane wings. There's a big difference, which anyone with an ounce of sense can see. Banning airplanes is not an option. Banning crypto is. I disagree. Ten years ago neither the Web nor e-commerce existed, either, and ordinary people had barely heard of email or cell phones. Their privacy was protected by the labor and traceability of intercepting paper mail and tapping analog phones. Without encryption, every national government will have technology to effortlessly spy on all their citizens all the time. Inevitably, some will use it. Saying cryptography is a luxury because it is new is like saying seat belts are a luxury because horse-drawn carriages didn't have them. Howie Goodell -- Howie Goodell hgoodell at cs.uml.edu Pr SW Eng, WearLogic Sc.D. Cand HCI Res Grp CS Dept U Massachussets Lowell http://people.ne.mediaone.net/goodell/howie Dying is soooo 20th-century! http://www.cryonics.org From aimee.farr at pobox.com Thu Sep 13 14:17:15 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 16:17:15 -0500 Subject: Congress mulls crypto restrictions in response to attacks In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010913165643.021f2c30@mail.well.com> Message-ID: Amateur radio was the first casualty after Pearl Harbor. Some criticize the action now, of course. ~Aimee > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com]On > Behalf Of Declan McCullagh > Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 3:59 PM > To: cypherpunks at lne.com > Subject: Congress mulls crypto restrictions in response to attacks > > > http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,46816,00.html > > Congress Mulls Stiff Crypto Laws > By Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com) > 1:45 p.m. Sep. 13, 2001 PDT > > WASHINGTON -- The encryption wars have begun. > > For nearly a decade, privacy mavens have been worrying that a > terrorist attack could prompt Congress to ban > communications-scrambling products that frustrate both police wiretaps > and U.S. intelligence agencies. > > Tuesday's catastrophe, which shed more blood on American soil than any > event since the Civil War, appears to have started that process. > > Some politicians and defense hawks are warning that extremists such as > Osama bin Laden, who U.S. officials say is a crypto-aficionado and the > top suspect in Tuesday's attacks, enjoy unfettered access to > privacy-protecting software and hardware that render their > communications unintelligible to eavesdroppers. > > In a floor speech on Thursday, Sen. Judd Gregg (R-New Hampshire) > called for a global prohibition on encryption products without > backdoors for government surveillance. > > "This is something that we need international cooperation on and we > need to have movement on in order to get the information that allows > us to anticipate and prevent what occurred in New York and in > Washington," Gregg said, according to a copy of his remarks that an > aide provided. > > President Clinton appointed an ambassador-rank official, David Aaron, > to try this approach, but eventually the administration abandoned the > project. > > Gregg said encryption makers "have as much at risk as we have at risk > as a nation, and they should understand that as a matter of > citizenship, they have an obligation" to include decryption methods > for government agents. Gregg, who previously headed the appropriations > committee overseeing the Justice Department, said that such access > would only take place with "court oversight." > > [...] > > Frank Gaffney of the Center for Security Policy, a hawkish think tank > that has won accolades from all recent Republican presidents, says > that this week's terrorist attacks demonstrate the government must be > able to penetrate communications it intercepts. > > "I'm certainly of the view that we need to let the U.S. government > have access to encrypted material under appropriate circumstances and > regulations," says Gaffney, an assistant secretary of defense under > President Reagan. > > [...] > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list > You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. > Declan McCullagh's photographs are at http://www.mccullagh.org/ > To subscribe to Politech: http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html > This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From freematt at coil.com Thu Sep 13 13:32:50 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 16:32:50 -0400 Subject: CNN Using 1991 Footage of Celebrating Palestinians? Message-ID: CNN Using 1991 Footage of Celebrating Palestinians Can anyone verify this? http://www.indymedia.org.il/imc/israel/webcast/display.php3?article_id=6946 ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************** From declan at well.com Thu Sep 13 13:58:34 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 16:58:34 -0400 Subject: Congress mulls crypto restrictions in response to attacks Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010913165643.021f2c30@mail.well.com> http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,46816,00.html Congress Mulls Stiff Crypto Laws By Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com) 1:45 p.m. Sep. 13, 2001 PDT WASHINGTON -- The encryption wars have begun. For nearly a decade, privacy mavens have been worrying that a terrorist attack could prompt Congress to ban communications-scrambling products that frustrate both police wiretaps and U.S. intelligence agencies. Tuesday's catastrophe, which shed more blood on American soil than any event since the Civil War, appears to have started that process. Some politicians and defense hawks are warning that extremists such as Osama bin Laden, who U.S. officials say is a crypto-aficionado and the top suspect in Tuesday's attacks, enjoy unfettered access to privacy-protecting software and hardware that render their communications unintelligible to eavesdroppers. In a floor speech on Thursday, Sen. Judd Gregg (R-New Hampshire) called for a global prohibition on encryption products without backdoors for government surveillance. "This is something that we need international cooperation on and we need to have movement on in order to get the information that allows us to anticipate and prevent what occurred in New York and in Washington," Gregg said, according to a copy of his remarks that an aide provided. President Clinton appointed an ambassador-rank official, David Aaron, to try this approach, but eventually the administration abandoned the project. Gregg said encryption makers "have as much at risk as we have at risk as a nation, and they should understand that as a matter of citizenship, they have an obligation" to include decryption methods for government agents. Gregg, who previously headed the appropriations committee overseeing the Justice Department, said that such access would only take place with "court oversight." [...] Frank Gaffney of the Center for Security Policy, a hawkish think tank that has won accolades from all recent Republican presidents, says that this week's terrorist attacks demonstrate the government must be able to penetrate communications it intercepts. "I'm certainly of the view that we need to let the U.S. government have access to encrypted material under appropriate circumstances and regulations," says Gaffney, an assistant secretary of defense under President Reagan. [...] ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. Declan McCullagh's photographs are at http://www.mccullagh.org/ To subscribe to Politech: http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From gbroiles at well.com Thu Sep 13 17:16:43 2001 From: gbroiles at well.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 17:16:43 -0700 Subject: Cypherpunks and terrorism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010913165720.0457cec0@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 12:20 AM 9/14/2001 +0200, Nomen Nescio wrote: >You're about to begin running a remailer. Apparently you haven't done >so before. Well, it should be quite an education. Ah, no. Try a Google search for "remailer at ideath.goldenbear.com", and you'll find plenty of references to the remailer I ran in 1994-1995. (I don't remember when I started - there's a reasonable chance it was in the fall of 1993, but honest remailers don't keep logs . . ) I think remailers are ideally run either by people/organizations with very few resources (so they're not attractive litigation targets) or substantial resources (so they can defend themselves vigorously & aggressively vs. litigation) and right now I find myself somewhere in between those two poles. Nevertheless, the events of the past few days have changed the risk/benefit ratio such that I believe the risks of inaction on my part are worse than the risks of acting. > Keep it up for a >year and you'll be more qualified to judge whether this technology is >good or bad, on balance. One thing is certain: if you go into it just >because you think it will be an "interesting project", you won't stay >with it for long. I'm going into it because I think it's important to provide actual and symbolic support for freedom and privacy when those values appear to be under attack by people like you, who would assume the title of "conscience" and "protector" in order to render people helpless, practically or legally. If you're still hung up on judging whether technology is "good" or "bad", you're not ready for this list, nor are you qualified to discuss policy beyond deciding what color the balloons and streamers should be at the homecoming dance. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at well.com "We have found and closed the thing you watch us with." -- New Delhi street kids From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Thu Sep 13 08:25:22 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 17:25:22 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Manhattan Mid-Afternoon In-Reply-To: <3BA06946.18635.4E8F979@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Sep 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote: > If, however, it turns out that all the terrorists were from some > countries that are unfree, poor and miserable, and are outraged by the > fact that we are free, rich and happy, and blame us, rather than > themselves, for their poverty and misery, then the only way to appease > them would be to become unfree and poor. I would rather toast the > entire third world, than make such a concession. Get a clue, quick. From adam at homeport.org Thu Sep 13 14:30:21 2001 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 17:30:21 -0400 Subject: CNN Using 1991 Footage of Celebrating Palestinians? In-Reply-To: <3BA11B18.573ED501@mrlizard.com> References: <3BA11B18.573ED501@mrlizard.com> Message-ID: <20010913173020.A29730@weathership.homeport.org> On Thu, Sep 13, 2001 at 01:46:16PM -0700, lizard wrote: | Matthew Gaylor wrote: | > | > CNN Using 1991 Footage of Celebrating Palestinians | > | > Can anyone verify this? | > | > http://www.indymedia.org.il/imc/israel/webcast/display.php3?article_id=6946 | > | Reading through the following comments, it seems unlikely. Possible, but | unlikely. The evidence, at this point, consists of an obviously anti-US | poster referring to an unnamed Professor with an unseen tape. That's | pretty low on the rely-o-meter. | | I won't say it's impossible, but I want a better source. >From Cyberia: http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/breaking_2.html Palestinian Authority threatens camera crews covering celebrations Special to World Tribune.com MIDDLE EAST NEWSLINE Thursday, September 13, 2001 RAMALLAH ? The Palestinian Authority has muzzled coverage of Palestinian celebrations of the Islamic suicide attacks against the United States [...] -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From decoy at iki.fi Thu Sep 13 07:42:10 2001 From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 17:42:10 +0300 (EEST) Subject: "Alejandro transports" In-Reply-To: <20010912124920.A9458@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Eric Murray wrote: >I think I have seen examples of this before, but I can't remember >where. Does anyone know who or what generates it? >[example snipped] Looks like random stuff/stego generated using a jargon file for nouns. The grammar is coherent, so it is likely built on top of a generative grammar -- the like of PostModernism Generator. I remember seeing a commercial product capable of this, somewhere, but don't have a link. Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy, mailto:decoy at iki.fi, gsm: +358-50-5756111 student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front From declan at well.com Thu Sep 13 15:00:37 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:00:37 -0400 Subject: Cypherpunks and terrorism In-Reply-To: <8c2b38b80588587f64cdbcb85eae4dc1@dizum.com>; from nobody@dizum.com on Thu, Sep 13, 2001 at 09:10:13PM +0200 References: <8c2b38b80588587f64cdbcb85eae4dc1@dizum.com> Message-ID: <20010913180037.A26446@cluebot.com> On Thu, Sep 13, 2001 at 09:10:13PM +0200, Nomen Nescio wrote: > The fact is, crypto as we know it is a luxury. It didn't even exist ten > years ago. None of the crypto tools we use did. We can hardly make a > case that banning or restricting access to them will send us back into > the stone age. Now we see "Nomen's" true colors. The Internet as we know it did not exist 10 years ago. Cell phones as we know them did not exist 10 years ago. Cable TV as we know it did not exist 10 years ago. Lots of things can be banned under this facist-leaning thinking. -Declan From declan at well.com Thu Sep 13 15:14:05 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:14:05 -0400 Subject: CNN Using 1991 Footage of Celebrating Palestinians? In-Reply-To: <3BA11B18.573ED501@mrlizard.com>; from lizard@mrlizard.com on Thu, Sep 13, 2001 at 01:46:16PM -0700 References: <3BA11B18.573ED501@mrlizard.com> Message-ID: <20010913181405.B26446@cluebot.com> I agree with Liz. This violates journalistic principles (old footage can be used but must be labeled "file footage" or similar) and would expose CNN to withering criticism from its competitors and other journalists. Worth ignoring. -Declan On Thu, Sep 13, 2001 at 01:46:16PM -0700, lizard wrote: > Matthew Gaylor wrote: > > > > CNN Using 1991 Footage of Celebrating Palestinians > > > > Can anyone verify this? > > > > http://www.indymedia.org.il/imc/israel/webcast/display.php3?article_id=6946 > > > Reading through the following comments, it seems unlikely. Possible, but > unlikely. The evidence, at this point, consists of an obviously anti-US > poster referring to an unnamed Professor with an unseen tape. That's > pretty low on the rely-o-meter. > > I won't say it's impossible, but I want a better source. From ocschwar at mit.edu Thu Sep 13 15:14:46 2001 From: ocschwar at mit.edu (Omri Schwarz) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:14:46 -0400 Subject: CNN Using 1991 Footage of Celebrating Palestinians? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:14:05 EDT." <20010913181405.B26446@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <200109132214.SAA12186@no-knife.mit.edu> $cat /dev/rumormill One of the pictures has a little boy wearing a t-shirt referring to the 1998 FIFA world cup. Haven't seen the picture (indymedia.il is having MySQL trouble); can't try to confirm yet. > I agree with Liz. This violates journalistic principles (old footage > can be used but must be labeled "file footage" or similar) and would > expose CNN to withering criticism from its competitors and other > journalists. > > Worth ignoring. > > -Declan > > > On Thu, Sep 13, 2001 at 01:46:16PM -0700, lizard wrote: > > Matthew Gaylor wrote: > > > > > > CNN Using 1991 Footage of Celebrating Palestinians > > > > > > Can anyone verify this? > > > > > > http://www.indymedia.org.il/imc/israel/webcast/display.php3?article_id=6946 > > > > > Reading through the following comments, it seems unlikely. Possible, but > > unlikely. The evidence, at this point, consists of an obviously anti-US > > poster referring to an unnamed Professor with an unseen tape. That's > > pretty low on the rely-o-meter. > > > > I won't say it's impossible, but I want a better source. From declan at well.com Thu Sep 13 15:15:37 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:15:37 -0400 Subject: "Ending States That Support Terrorism" In-Reply-To: <200109132136.f8DLaF003594@artifact.psychedelic.net>; from emc@artifact.psychedelic.net on Thu, Sep 13, 2001 at 02:36:14PM -0700 References: <200109132136.f8DLaF003594@artifact.psychedelic.net> Message-ID: <20010913181537.C26446@cluebot.com> On Thu, Sep 13, 2001 at 02:36:14PM -0700, Eric Cordian wrote: > So when's the Congress going to outlaw encryption? I assume we'll all be > expected to make such small sacrifices for the larger good. I assume you wrote this before you saw my Wired article on the topic. -Declan From dredd at megacity.org Thu Sep 13 18:21:30 2001 From: dredd at megacity.org (Derek Balling) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:21:30 -0700 Subject: Sick Wacko in the Whitehouse In-Reply-To: <632e7d51b117c47db44351ffac53bfad@freedom.gmsociety.org> References: <632e7d51b117c47db44351ffac53bfad@freedom.gmsociety.org> Message-ID: > The evening news says Dubbya is asking Congress for >20 billion for his little war, and it sounds like the >moron is actually going to try to invade Afganistan. I >hope, in one respect, they actually do it. It will be >amusing to watch the body bags coming home as the Afgans >kick Yankee butt just like they did Ivan's. > How did you people ever allow this delusional sub-normal wacko >to become your leader? For those of us old enough to remember, >he sounds more and more like Adolf Hitler. >God help us all. There's a distinct difference in purpose, theoretically speaking, between "invading to control" and "invading to punish and destroy". Your operational requirements are significantly different, so I'm told by several military folks I've talked to, none of whom attempted to play down the Afghan resolve, but simply pointed out that if we didn't care about "keeping it", we would not encounter (all of) the same difficulties Ivan did. D -- +---------------------+-----------------------------------------+ | dredd at megacity.org | "Conan! What is best in life?" | | Derek J. Balling | "To crush your enemies, see them | | | driven before you, and to hear the | | | lamentation of their women!" | +---------------------+-----------------------------------------+ From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Thu Sep 13 09:28:23 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:28:23 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: IP: [ I take it back djf ] U.S. Intelligence Gathering Reviewed(fwd) Message-ID: -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 08:25:22 -0400 From: David Farber Reply-To: farber at cis.upenn.edu To: ip-sub-1 at majordomo.pobox.com Subject: IP: [ I take it back djf ] U.S. Intelligence Gathering Reviewed >U.S. Intelligence Gathering Reviewed > >By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS > > > >Filed at 7:11 a.m. ET > >NEW YORK (AP) -- A current emphasis on technology over human >intelligence-gathering, a funding shortage and an information >overload may help explain U.S. intelligence agencies' failure to >forestall the worst terror attack on American soil. > >``Our raw intelligence has gotten weaker, partly because we're not >hiring, we're not paying and we're not analyzing what we're >collecting,'' said Anthony Cordesman, an anti-terrorism expert with >the Washington-based Center for Strategic and International >Studies. > >His comments echoed those of former Secretary of State James A. >Baker III, who told CNN that ``it would be well ... to consider >beefing up some of our intelligence capabilities, particularly in >the areas of human intelligence.'' > >That's easier said than done, said Gideon Rose, managing editor of >Foreign Affairs magazine. > >``It's incredibly difficult to find the right people who can >infiltrate these groups,'' Rose said. ``As far as making other >changes, it means going up against Washington's bureaucratic >inertia.'' > >During the Cold War, the United States began pouring billions into >satellite imagery, communications interception and reconnaissance >equipment. The tools were also useful in monitoring the moves of >organizations such as the PLO and the IRA -- which had traditional, >low-tech structures that were relatively easy to follow. > >But the extraordinary costs meant cutbacks in personnel at the CIA >and the National Security Agency, the nation's international >eavesdropping arm. > >As the Cold War came to a close, the number of threatening groups >increased tenfold just as the digital revolution hit, making global >communications suddenly very cheap and secure. Meanwhile, the >numbers of people working in U.S. intelligence remained constant. > >These days, terrorists can download sophisticated encryption >software on the Internet for free, making it increasingly difficult >to tap into their communications. > >One recent report said Osama bin Laden, a suspect in Tuesday's >attacks, has used complex digital masking technology called >steganography to send photos over the Internet bearing hidden >messages. > >The head of NSA, Gen. Mike Hayden, acknowledged in an interview >with CBS' ``60 Minutes II'' earlier this year that his agency is >``behind the curve in keeping up with the global telecommunications >revolution,'' adding that bin Laden ``has better technology'' than >the agency. > >Former national security adviser Sandy Berger said Wednesday that >the terrorists responsible for Tuesday's carnage displayed ``a >level of sophistication that is beyond what any intelligence outfit >thought was possible.'' Yet, many believe the perpetrators used >low-tech methods to elude Western intelligence. > >Wayne Madsen, a former NSA intelligence officer, said he believes >the terrorists shunned e-mail and mobile phones, using couriers and >safe houses instead. He said it was likely the terrorists in each >of Tuesday's four hijacked planes didn't know the others existed. > >Terrorist ``cells are kept small and very independent so >intelligence agencies can't establish any sort of network,'' Madsen >said. > >Others say the big problem is not the technological shortcomings >but the inability to get inside tightly-knit organizations such as >bin Laden's. > >``It's not easy to knock on bin Laden's cave and say we'd like to >join,'' said Frank Cilluffo, a senior analyst at the Center for >Strategic and International Studies. ``These are hard targets for >Americans to infiltrate and we need to recruit the kind of people >who have the language and the cultural understanding to gain access >to these organizations.'' > >Eugene Carroll, a Navy admiral and a defense expert, agreed. >``These people can only be countered by superb intelligence. The >U.S. doesn't have it,'' he said. > >Experts say intelligence-gathering, to be effective, must involve >close coordination between eavesdropping and spying. In practical >terms, this means cooperation between the NSA and CIA. > >Madsen said there is reason to believe the NSA received some good >intelligence showing bin Laden's involvement in Tuesday's attacks >but that it wasn't recognized as such. > >``There's an information overload out there and not surprisingly it >becomes very hard to process, prioritize it and share it,'' said >Ian Lesser at the Rand Corporation think tank. > >Others said that some of the best intelligence people had been lost >to the dot.com boom while promising junior personnel were pushed >out by inflexible veterans. > >``The intelligence community needs to do a lot more to retain the >best and the brightest, who are lured away to companies that can >offer the kinds of incentives and salary that government jobs just >don't have right now,'' Cilluffo said. > >^------ > >AP writers Steve Gutkin and Jim Krane contributed to this >report. > >http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Attacks-Intelligence.html?ex=1001393242&ei=1&en=73b5a7098dba6d03 For archives see: http://www.interesting-people.org/ From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Thu Sep 13 16:34:18 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:34:18 -0500 (CDT) Subject: An Open Letter on Privacy and Anonymity (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 14:37:11 -0700 From: Eric Hughes Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com To: cypherpunks at lne.com Subject: CDR: An Open Letter on Privacy and Anonymity 2001 September 12 An Open Letter on Privacy and Anonymity Fellow Citizens of the United States of America: I am moved to write as a founder of a movement that, far beyond my own efforts, has eloquently expressed an ideal, the ideal of privacy in society. Privacy is not uniquely American, yet it is at the core of the American ideal, at the core of free speech that enables human connection, at the core of free association that builds society up from a savage state, at the core of liberty. I helped to start cypherpunks, a movement for privacy in the digital world. Cypherpunks is a diverse movement with no explicit doctrine, yet with a deep shared desire for human liberty. Let none who call me friend say that the events of September 11 are anything other than a dark day upon humanity. In the midst of the violence, I see a thirst for the taste of the blood of vengeance in the mouths of many of my fellow citizens. I see that destruction will ineluctably ride upon the opponents of the country of these my fellow citizens. So be it. I do not seek here to forestall or to avoid the violence directed toward the perpetrators of these deeds. I write as a citizen of the United States that our country may avoid a self-inflicted wound against liberty. The terrorists have struck a blow against liberty, it is said. The terrorists will strike again, it is said. I say to all, let us not strike the second blow against ourselves. Today we are seeking an enemy unknown, an enemy who is hiding, as well they ought to. The thirst that drives our country forward now cannot be slaked without the apprehension of those responsible, and we have yet to identify or find them. We now have a great temptation before us, to lash out at those amongst ourselves who may be thought to have given succor to our enemies, at those amongst ourselves who may be thought to still provide them solace and deception, and at those amongst ourselves whom some dislike for unrelated reasons. I wish to repeat again the words of Governor Davis of California, who spoke yesterday that "we are all Americans." We are all Americans, and we should not attack ourselves. We are all Americans, and we should not fight each other in the streets. We are all Americans, and we should not turn our law enforcement apparatus and our national security infrastructure against the very liberties that we all hold dear. The goal of these terrorists is to restrict freedoms in America, to steal its essence and to weaken it. I shall pray we do not cooperate with this their goal in a hot-headed rush to immediate results. Let the anger of this country be cold and calmly directed, that the accompaniment of wrath be precision. The terrorists are cowards, it is said. Shall America be a coward to itself? We have an excess of strength to expend upon our opponents, be they external or internal. We will find that there are internal champions of liberty that have without conspiracy or knowledge furthered the plans of our opponents, who have taken advantage of the liberties that America offers all who enter her shores. Many of these champions I know personally, because cypherpunks have enabled liberty on-line to all takers, without discrimination and without distinction. Let the prevailing wrath be directed not against those to promote liberty, but those who consciously seek to destroy it. We need not curtail our liberty in order to save it. The message is seductive that we may more effectively fight for liberty if we limit our freedoms for a time whose end has yet to be announced. Yet this is not the message of America, but of several of its vanquished enemies. For liberty is not fair-weather clothing that may only be worn when the weather is good. Liberty is rather the jewel in the locket, the most prized possession short of family and life itself. We diminish ourselves if we rationalize our freedom away in an evanescent fog of rhetoric about efficiency. Liberty is not efficient; it is expensive and tortuous, and as an American people we desire it before most everything else. As we enter a new century, let us demonstrate the true strength of an open society -- that it can withstand the threat of demagoguery even as it remains a powerful actor against an external threat. This is the ideal that our strength may manifest, that a democracy may express its power as a democracy itself, and not as a police state masquerading as one. I stand with the Federal Congress and sing "America, my home, sweet home." For I live upon this land and soil, with other people who have set their lives along the course of freedom. I pray that we may all pass through this dark time with the dignity of our own ideals intact, that we may pass through to the other side with renewed vigor to pursue the cause of freedom over all the earth. My heart grieves with those who have lost, yet it also rejoices that we might yet undergo this ordeal as a country and emerge stronger and more faithful to our own nature. May peace be with you all, with the fullness of your existence in tow. Eric Hughes [Please feel free to post this at will.] From citizenQ at ziplip.com Thu Sep 13 18:51:40 2001 From: citizenQ at ziplip.com (citizenQ) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:51:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sick Wacko in the Whitehouse Message-ID: You were NOT paying close enough attention during the election. "We" did not allow this sub-normal to become president. The Republican machine saw to it, unable to be thwarted by the Democratic machine. Neither of which have anything to do with "us." Our only hope is that his is an "assisted living" situation, surrounded by enough possibly more intelligent and experienced men and women to prevent the most heinous missteps. Hopefully the posturing that everyone is "shoulder to shoulder" and "fully behind" the President is only because that's what has to be said to keep the sheeple quiet, and not because that's what the huge and intentionally ponderous US Government machine really thinks. > How did you people ever allow this delusional sub-normal wacko >to become your leader? For those of us old enough to remember, >he sounds more and more like Adolf Hitler. >God help us all. From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Thu Sep 13 11:52:03 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:52:03 +0000 Subject: A Brevital Moment (was..Ignore Aimee Farr) Message-ID: <200109131852.f8DIq3s68108@mailserver1.hushmail.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 1774 bytes Desc: not available URL: From res0094q at gte.net Thu Sep 13 16:01:20 2001 From: res0094q at gte.net (-=Drake=-) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 19:01:20 -0400 Subject: New flight rules References: <3BA0079D.73AF9660@semtex.com> Message-ID: <3BA13AC0.6EB7B4BB@gte.net> That won't work you dolt! You are forgetting about string, cord, and belts. No belts! And no long fingernails! They should just handcuff us to our seats. And let us up one at a time to go potty. Yeah, that's it. Dynamite Bob wrote: > Airlines would only be allowed to provide passengers with plastic knives > and butter knives to eat their meals, an FAA spokesman said. > http://sg.news.yahoo.com/010912/1/1fwyc.html > > Also: only crayons, no pens or pencils. All PDAs, with their sharp > styli > and brittle glass displays, will be replaced with Etch-a-Sketch toys. > > Also all fingernails must be trimmed to 2mm past the fingerpad, this > must be done > before passing through security as nailclippers with nailfiles will not > be permitted on board, > either. > > Good thing none of the Martyr Airlines dudes shorted out their laptop > batteries to make a diversion... > > ...... > > Jeezus guys, get a clue. You can't pull the same stunt twice, whether > its a 'normal' hijacking > which turns out to be different (so much for passenger compliance..), or > the latest > social-engineering virus trick. The rubes *do* learn. > > The next time, its a bottle of Japanese Subway Perfume. > > Alas, a lot less eye candy with that. From adam at cypherspace.org Thu Sep 13 11:04:41 2001 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 19:04:41 +0100 Subject: escalation not the answer (Re: where do we go from here (and where should we have gone)) In-Reply-To: ; from Ben.Weber@greythorninc.com on Thu, Sep 13, 2001 at 09:03:58AM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20010913190441.A5576460@exeter.ac.uk> On Thu, Sep 13, 2001 at 09:03:58AM -0700, Ben Weber wrote: > 'Complain'? "We kill millions of innocent civilians unjustifiably"? Give > me a break, Americans are not the DEVIL, this sounds like something the only > the devil himself would do. To kill millions of innocent civilians; this is > not the American Foreign Policy, never was and never will be. The real > American Foreign Policy, not the garbage propaganda you've obviously been > reading: > [WWII history stuff] This has little to do with US middle east policies. I understand people are emotional at this point, but to be living under the impression that the US has no part in the escalation is ignorant of history. The fundamentalists behind these terrorist attacks are justifying their actions on the basis of US sponsorship of Israel which in their view is terrorising Palestinians, and various US interentionist military acts -- missile attacks, assassination attempts, blanket bombings etc. They may or may not have other agendas, but these historic grievances are what allow them to gain supporters. It seems likely that we will see an escalation: - Israel and Palestine conflict, Israel funded by US, both sides have greivances in their escalation of violence - previous WTC bombing, and US reactions to that if both sides continue to react with increasing violence where does it end? I'm not saying there is an easy answer, but escalation seems unlikely to help long term political stability. Unfocused escalation "no distinction between perpetrators and harborers" it would seem will be likely to create more victims, who have had family members killed who were bystanders and previously neutral or antagonistic to the perpetrators who will then be fodder for future supporters of that currently small minority of fundamentalist islam calling for jihad on the US. Pre-emptive strikes if any should be focused on military targets only not for the purpose of revenge but for the purpose of reducing the chance of further attacks. If a strike would in fact increase chance of further attacks and contribute to further escalation, I think it would be a bad idea, and instead attempts should be made to suppress the current cycle of escalations. Adam From marketing at cellodepot.com Thu Sep 13 15:20:59 2001 From: marketing at cellodepot.com (Cellodepot.com) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 19:20:59 -0300 Subject: C E L L O D E P O T . C O M INITIAL OFFER Message-ID: <200109132223.PAA28327@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 7151 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Thu Sep 13 17:51:39 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 19:51:39 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Catallaxy Message-ID: Catalaxy (20th Century) Politics/Economics [1] A theory of a desirable society, set out by the Austrian economist and political theorist F. A. Hayek (1899-1992). A 'catallxy' is a market order without planned ends, characterized by the 'spontaneous order' which emerges when individuals pursue their own ends within a framework set by law and tradition. The function of government is to maintain the rule of law which guarantees fair and equal procedures, but is neutral as to goals. F. A. Hayek , Legislation and Liberty (London, 1982) [1] Dictionary of Theories J. Bothamley ISBN 1-57859-045-0 -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From tcmay at got.net Thu Sep 13 19:55:58 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 19:55:58 -0700 Subject: "Ending States That Support Terrorism" In-Reply-To: <200109132136.f8DLaF003594@artifact.psychedelic.net> Message-ID: <200109140257.f8E2vVf20643@slack.lne.com> On Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 02:36 PM, Eric Cordian wrote: > Anyone have the list of countries that Bush is planning on scheduling > for > termination? > > I would imagine Afganistan and Iraq are the first two. Will he toss in > Syria, Sudan, and Libya as well? Syria and Libya expressed condemnation of the WTC event, so I expect they looked at the likely upcoming firestorm and decided they'd better sign on with Uncle Sam. Cuba did as well. I think this worsen things for us, because the New World Order is gathering a huge head of steam. Expect to see a worldwide ban on privacy, with Fidel Castro invited to the White House. > It looks like the game that is being played here, is that all countries > are being given an opportunity to pledge unconditional support and > cooperation for Bush's "War" against those rendering aid to terrorism, > now > declared to be the primary focus of his administration, and whoever > declines will constitute the enemy. This is exactly how it is looking. > While all of this is transpiring, a smirking Ariel Sharon, the war > criminal elected by acclaimation, will be taking more of the > Palestinians' > land. "Lebensraum." > So when's the Congress going to outlaw encryption? I assume we'll all > be > expected to make such small sacrifices for the larger good. Feinstein, Schumer, Feingold, Lieberman, and all of the other usual suspects are scrambling to repeal what they can of the Constitution. I'm betting, as I said in my last post, that strong unescrowed crypto will be illegal by December 15th. (Not that this would have stopped the WTC cells from planning their attacks in apartments, motel rooms, etc., nor from using the signals they sent over pagers and cell phones. Good old-fashoned codes are impossible to defeat.) > > We're all supposed to fly American flags for the next 30 days to show > our > support for all of this. I wonder if they'll be taking names. Or noting who is flying them upside down, the symbol of distress. --Tim May From alq at fbi.gov Thu Sep 13 20:01:03 2001 From: alq at fbi.gov (Alfred Qeada) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 20:01:03 -0700 Subject: "Ending States That Support Terrorism" Message-ID: <3BA172EE.B2AC55A0@fbi.gov> At 02:36 PM 9/13/01 -0700, Eric Cordian wrote: >Anyone have the list of countries that Bush is planning on scheduling for >termination? If you work for a company that exports stuff, you can refer to list "C" which includes the largely moslem usual suspect countries. List "D" are the relics of the cold war. No beowolves in fuckistan. >I would imagine Afganistan and Iraq are the first two. Will he toss in >Syria, Sudan, and Libya as well? They're on the List. >Pakistan has even climbed aboard, in the hopes that we won't drop any >bombs on them on our way to Afganistan. They're also looking to curry favor, and distance India. They're nuclear; you have to give them respect. South Indian food is better though. Of course, they must prove their >loyalty by cutting off Afganistan's oil and gas, and permitting us to base >our troops there. All your colonies are ours. >Isn't playing these sorts of games with Saudi Arabia, the location of >Islam's most sacred sites, the reason Osama bin Laden is mad at the US to >begin with? Ten points to the man with the bugged apartment... >So when's the Congress going to outlaw encryption? I assume we'll all be >expected to make such small sacrifices for the larger good. The first day, there were plenty of "don't sacrifice our freedoms" calls; after three days, it was "we may have to sacrifice certain of our freedoms". Allah knows what we see in a week. >We're all supposed to fly American flags for the next 30 days to show our >support for all of this. I wonder if they'll be taking names. What if you fly it upside down? Too bad there wasn't an "Arabic, not Judaic" box on the census forms, eh? All those empty bunks in them private jails... From honig at sprynet.com Thu Sep 13 20:14:18 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 20:14:18 -0700 Subject: Congress mulls crypto restrictions in response to attacks In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010913165643.021f2c30@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010913201418.009732d0@pop.sprynet.com> At 04:17 PM 9/13/01 -0500, Aimee Farr wrote: >Amateur radio was the first casualty after Pearl Harbor. Some criticize the >action now, of course. > >~Aimee Nice analogy. However, it wasn't like there were 1e7 full-band HAM rigs in lots of living rooms, back then. The internet provides infinate bandwidth, vs. HAMs' little slices of spectrum, or cable's feeble Gigahertz pipe. Japs were put in concentration camps after Pearl Harbor, too. From aimee.farr at pobox.com Thu Sep 13 18:26:06 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 20:26:06 -0500 Subject: A Brevital Moment (was..Ignore Aimee Farr) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mr. Ziplip wrote: > Tim - > > Behavioral psychologists will tell you that the best way to > extinguish an undesirable behavior is to IGNORE it. > > If Farr's posturings and baitings are truly to be made > ineffective, the best course of action amongst the cpunks who > care is to killfile the postings and refuse to engage on ANY level. My post was not "bait." The reason we have anything left of the amendments so frequently talked about in here is due to the independence of the judiciary. While you can question aforesaid independence, threatening the judiciary is beyond the pale. There are some posts in here that give me 'pause for psycholinguistic analysis.' As such, I worry that they could be misconstrued (Type 5...Type 6, compulsive or possible syndicate bombers even...) by some hypersensitive, uneducated people not intimately familiar with the history and quirks of this list -- in what has become a hypersensitive environment. Bell's "Assassination Politics" put cypherpunks on some protective intelligence agendas. It would not be implausible to assume you were being monitored to see if you "run" with the seeded assassination memes, if only for analytical purposes. These matters are taken seriously by those charged with the care of protected persons. (Contrary to what some here would have you believe, subtlety can get you a much higher threat-rating than overtly threatening correspondence.) > Rising to the bait, debating whether such-and-such a purpose is > behind Farr's postings, speculating on Farr's true intent, all > this does is spur on the postings, the baiting, the provocation. > Just say "no" to responding to ANY of Farr's postings, and I > would almost put money that the behavior will extinguish within a week. Baiting? Provocation? No, a caveat. Do not tolerate behavior of that nature. It subjects you all to scrutiny and mischaracterization. What about Mr. K-S that hides behind his hushmail jacket and asks for names and addresses.....why doesn't somebody cuss him out? ~Aimee From hallam at ai.mit.edu Thu Sep 13 17:37:42 2001 From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Phillip Hallam-Baker) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 20:37:42 -0400 Subject: CNN Using 1991 Footage of Celebrating Palestinians? In-Reply-To: <20010913181405.B26446@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <009f01c13cb5$7759b740$4100a8c0@ne.mediaone.net> The thing that struck me about the footage is that there were about four adults and a couple of kids. There were more people not celebrating. The footage was introduced as mass demonstrations. However that is not what the footage shows. During the Falklands war the BBC showed us Argentine news footage claiming to be showing footage of the front landing gear of a shot down Harrier. The commentary ridiculed the Argentine claim that it was a Harrier stating categroically that Harrier landing gear looked different, however that is exactly what it was later demonstrated to be. Phill > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu > [mailto:owner-fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu]On Behalf Of Declan > McCullagh > Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 6:14 PM > To: lizard > Cc: Matthew Gaylor; FOI-L at listserv.syr.edu; Jim Warren; > fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu; cypherpunks at lne.com; > CYBERIA-L at listserv.aol.com > Subject: Re: CNN Using 1991 Footage of Celebrating Palestinians? > > > I agree with Liz. This violates journalistic principles (old footage > can be used but must be labeled "file footage" or similar) and would > expose CNN to withering criticism from its competitors and other > journalists. > > Worth ignoring. > > -Declan > > > On Thu, Sep 13, 2001 at 01:46:16PM -0700, lizard wrote: > > Matthew Gaylor wrote: > > > > > > CNN Using 1991 Footage of Celebrating Palestinians > > > > > > Can anyone verify this? > > > > > > > http://www.indymedia.org.il/imc/israel/webcast/display.php3?ar ticle_id=6946 > > > Reading through the following comments, it seems unlikely. Possible, but > unlikely. The evidence, at this point, consists of an obviously anti-US > poster referring to an unnamed Professor with an unseen tape. That's > pretty low on the rely-o-meter. > > I won't say it's impossible, but I want a better source. From alq at fbi.gov Thu Sep 13 20:38:25 2001 From: alq at fbi.gov (Alfred Qeada) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 20:38:25 -0700 Subject: The price of trinitite in Afghanistan Message-ID: <3BA17BB1.5A6887D0@fbi.gov> At 08:50 PM 9/13/01 -0400, An Metet wrote: > The evening news says Dubbya is asking Congress for >20 billion for his little war, and it sounds like the >moron is actually going to try to invade Afganistan. I >hope, in one respect, they actually do it. It will be >amusing to watch the body bags coming home as the Afgans >kick Yankee butt just like they did Ivan's. Yeah, and women there might be able to earn a living selling bread in a year. Its not like the US won't stomache a few more body bags now. Osama forgot that: when you toast that many that fast, you can motivate incredible shit. Better to have boiled the frog slowly. Same goes for the latent rights-raping scum in Congress. They better not try cooking the frog. The futures options on trinitite in Afghanistan have seriously dropped... From tcmay at got.net Thu Sep 13 20:38:57 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 20:38:57 -0700 Subject: Pick your trusted encryption provider and communicate with whomever you want in this world. In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010913192001.02141e20@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <200109140340.f8E3eYf20890@slack.lne.com> On Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 06:22 PM, chefren wrote: Cypherpunks, I am forwarding this complete with names of cc:s attached to show you some of the enemies out there. I've gotten several personal e-mails. I am asking Declan, my friend, NOT to forward my posts to his various lists., Too many statists who gibber as this fool "chefren" does. (I have no idea whether "chefron" and "Rob Carlson" are the same person or not...part of the chaos of having my stuff sent to other mailing lists. For now, I am assuming it is only this "chefron" creep who deserves to be blasted.) > On 13 Sep 01, at 19:20, Declan McCullagh forwarded and Rob Carlson > wrote: > >> We have to urge our fellow citizens not to give up their >> basic civil rights, especially not the right to engage in >> private conversations over distance and share ideas in >> private that others (including those in power) might not >> agree with. > > > "Right to engage in private conversations over distance"? > > Our =society= invented means to have conversations over > distance, nobody is born with those capabilities. Those > means combined with strong encryption have lot's of good > uses but also bear a serious threat for our society. > > As foreseen by experts quite some time our society heads > for regulated encryption. Basically: Pick your trusted > encryption provider and communicate with whoever you want > in this world. This is a disgraceful argument, which I have no particular interest in arguing with you on. Declan, apparently you have been forwarding my posts to you one or more of your lists. Please do not do so. I have no interest in receiving arguments from some of the untermenschen who choose to subscribe to some of your lists. To you untermenschen: don't send your socialist/statist arguments to me personally. If you want to argue, join the lists I am on. --Tim May From alq at fbi.gov Thu Sep 13 20:42:44 2001 From: alq at fbi.gov (Alfred Qeada) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 20:42:44 -0700 Subject: A Brevital Moment (was..Ignore Aimee Farr) Message-ID: <3BA17CB4.B5092D47@fbi.gov> At 08:26 PM 9/13/01 -0500, Agent Farr wrote: >Bell's "Assassination Politics" put cypherpunks on some protective >intelligence agendas. Longtime fans would recognize that this was rent-seeking, one gang vs. another: the federal gang's ability to put 1e7 on O.B-L's noggin. vs. distributed anonymous (ie, citizen's AP) "Most Wanted" Monopolists *hate* competition, by definition. .... When they outlaw Bournouille's law, only birds will fly... From info at giganetstore.com Thu Sep 13 12:42:51 2001 From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 20:42:51 +0100 Subject: Com profundo pesar... Message-ID: <0100e5142190d91WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com> Estimado Cliente, Desde á 18 meses que duas vezes por semana vimos até si propondo-lhe aquilo que nós pensamos serem as melhores oportunidades de compra na Internet em Portugal. Excepcionalmente hoje e procurando-nos associar ao enorme movimento de luto e tristeza existente, em virtude dos acontecimentos trágicos ocorridos nos Estados Unidos , não enviamos a promoção habitual mas apenas uma sugestão de sites onde as pessoas podem seguir estes acontecimentos e eventualmente ajudar, querendo com isso manifestar o nosso profundo pesar pelas mortes ocorridas e pelo sofrimento das suas famílias e amigos. A Equipa da Giganetstore.com www.giganetstore.com Sites Recomendados: www.sapo.pt www.redcross.org www.cnn.com www.disasterrelief.org www.redcross.org/donate/give/ Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site http:\\www.giganetstore.com , ir à edição do seu registo e retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das nossas promoções e novos serviços -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2175 bytes Desc: not available URL: From shamrock at cypherpunks.to Thu Sep 13 20:48:59 2001 From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 20:48:59 -0700 Subject: "Ending States That Support Terrorism" In-Reply-To: <200109140257.f8E2vVf20643@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: Tim wrote: --------- (Not that this would have stopped the WTC cells from planning their attacks in apartments, motel rooms, etc., nor from using the signals they sent over pagers and cell phones. Good old-fashoned codes are impossible to defeat.) --------- Something must be done about that. How about passing a law that all smoke detectors (already required in hotels and apartments) contain small cameras and microphones for law enforcement access in the defense of the homeland only? Undoubtedly, this modest measure would be a reasonable compromise between liberty and safety. --Lucky, who is presently listening to CNet Radio "The Voice of Technology" calling for a ban on unescrowed encryption without backdoors in the wake of the recent terrorist attacks. http://www.cnet.com/cnettv/0-1519376.html# "You have to know that to gain certain security, you must give up certain rights". Direct quote from the host. From anmetet at freedom.gmsociety.org Thu Sep 13 17:50:20 2001 From: anmetet at freedom.gmsociety.org (An Metet) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 20:50:20 -0400 Subject: Sick Wacko in the Whitehouse Message-ID: <632e7d51b117c47db44351ffac53bfad@freedom.gmsociety.org> The evening news says Dubbya is asking Congress for 20 billion for his little war, and it sounds like the moron is actually going to try to invade Afganistan. I hope, in one respect, they actually do it. It will be amusing to watch the body bags coming home as the Afgans kick Yankee butt just like they did Ivan's. How did you people ever allow this delusional sub-normal wacko to become your leader? For those of us old enough to remember, he sounds more and more like Adolf Hitler. God help us all. From nobody at dizum.com Thu Sep 13 11:50:23 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 20:50:23 +0200 (CEST) Subject: An Open Letter on Privacy and Anonymity Message-ID: Eric Hughes wrote: > 2001 September 12 > An Open Letter on Privacy and Anonymity It's a well written letter, unquestionably. But there's a problem. While the title of the letter refers to privacy and anonymity, these terms are hardly used in the body. Privacy is referred to only in the first paragraph were Eric introduces himself as a founder of the cypherpunks, a privacy organization. And anonymity is never mentioned at all! Any essay which purports to address a topic ought to mention it, don't you think? What if he had titled it, an open letter on pedophilia and child abuse? Would the arguments in the letter then automatically mean that we should support those activities? Mostly the letter contains calls for the preservation of liberty. Unfortunately, every politician in the United States, while voting for the most Draconian martial law curfews ever seen, would endorse each paragraph in Eric's message. Without some specifics tying these calls for liberty to concrete policy questions, the letter is not as strong as it should be. > We need not curtail our liberty in order to save it. The message is > seductive that we may more effectively fight for liberty if we limit our > freedoms for a time whose end has yet to be announced. How broadly do we take this? What about the elimination of curbside baggage checkins at airports? Is this a curtailment of our liberty? Is it a sign that we have diminished ourselves? Or is it a reasonable precaution in the face of terrorist hijackings? The letter from Sean Hastings suffered from the same vagueness: > Do not let your natural reactions of fear or anger help ANYONE to > further their short term political goals, or impose any "temporary" > measures. No "temporary" measures? They shouldn't have banned flights on Tuesday? Why not, exactly? Seemed like a wise precaution to most people. And no furthering of short-term political goals? The politicians have been wanting to dip into the social security "lockbox" for months. Now they can. Is this wrong? Isn't it just a matter of changing priorities which everyone will support? Why are we seeing such vague generalities from obviously talented writers? Let's see people go to the heart of the issue. If you want to argue for privacy and anonymity, make the case! The fact that no one will come out and make an argument for these technologies suggests that it is because they are afraid that any argument will be too weak to stand. Eric Hughes, take on this challenge. Write an essay, not in defense of liberty, but in defense of privacy and anonymity, as you promised in your title. And do it at a time when some of the best leads towards tracing these attackers are possible exactly because of a lack of privacy and anonymity. Tell us why the world would be a better place if it were impossible to trace these men. It's not an impossible argument. But it's not easy, either, like supporting freedom. Let's see it done, by someone as talented as you. 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I.D. # 032950 *************************************************************************** From tcmay at got.net Thu Sep 13 20:58:05 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 20:58:05 -0700 Subject: "Ending States That Support Terrorism" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200109140359.f8E3xZf21109@slack.lne.com> On Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 08:48 PM, Lucky Green wrote: > Tim wrote: > --------- > (Not that this would have stopped the WTC cells from planning their > attacks in apartments, motel rooms, etc., nor from using the signals > they sent over pagers and cell phones. Good old-fashoned codes are > impossible to defeat.) > --------- > > Something must be done about that. How about passing a law that all > smoke > detectors (already required in hotels and apartments) contain small > cameras > and microphones for law enforcement access in the defense of the > homeland > only? > > Undoubtedly, this modest measure would be a reasonable compromise > between > liberty and safety. > > --Lucky, who is presently listening to CNet Radio "The Voice of > Technology" > calling for a ban on unescrowed encryption without backdoors in the > wake of > the recent terrorist attacks. http://www.cnet.com/cnettv/0-1519376.html# > > "You have to know that to gain certain security, you must give up > certain > rights". Direct quote from the host. > This shows how rapidly the freight train has gathered steam. Even the _tech_ reporters, with a few obvious exceptions, are leading the calls for suppressing the Bill of Rights. Be sure to get the name of the host for the files. When this war is over, I expect hundreds of thousands will need to be sent to the wall. --Tim May From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Thu Sep 13 12:05:01 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 21:05:01 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Cypherpunk Threat Analysis In-Reply-To: <200109131853.f8DIrff16933@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Sep 2001, Tim May wrote: > "undercover" operations to shut down the Cypherpunks, PGP, and > Extropians lists. I dunno about Agent Farr, but the Extropians@ are innocent. Utterly. Please take that into considerations, Yer Honor. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 From nobody at dizum.com Thu Sep 13 12:10:13 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 21:10:13 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Cypherpunks and terrorism Message-ID: <8c2b38b80588587f64cdbcb85eae4dc1@dizum.com> James Donald writes: > Obviously this catastrophe could not have taken place without the > unauthorized use of paper. Paper allows people to communicate > dangerous ideas and secret messages. > > With paper, anyone can communicate to large numbers of people at > once, even if they are not properly authorized or in authority. > > The solution is clear. Paper must be a government monopoly . > Paper should only be used for government forms and official > government statements. Many people have made this point, but it is so fundamentally wrong that it's hard to believe that anyone takes it seriously. Paper, and metal, and knives, and airplanes, and all the other things which have been compared to anonymity tools, are different in one major respect: it would be an inconceivable hardship to ban them. They all have important uses for other things than committing crimes. To ban paper or airplanes or knives would eliminate all those other uses. Imagine a society without paper. It could not function. Likewise, eliminating those other technologies would at minimum cause tremendous harm to everyone's lives. Can we really say the same thing about cryptography? About steganography tools? About the anonymous mail services which bin Laden has been reported to have used (yesterday on TV it was mentioned several times)? Would commerce grind to a halt if we didn't have anonymous remailers? Of course not. The same with PGP and SSL and other crypto technologies that are available to everyone. The fact is, crypto as we know it is a luxury. It didn't even exist ten years ago. None of the crypto tools we use did. We can hardly make a case that banning or restricting access to them will send us back into the stone age. Please, let's end these spurious arguments that providers of crypto tools are no different than the people who make the metal in the airplane wings. There's a big difference, which anyone with an ounce of sense can see. Banning airplanes is not an option. Banning crypto is. From shamrock at cypherpunks.to Thu Sep 13 21:47:05 2001 From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 21:47:05 -0700 Subject: Cypherpunks and terrorism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nomen wrote, replying to Greg: --------------- You're about to begin running a remailer. Apparently you haven't done so before. Well, it should be quite an education. Keep it up for a year and you'll be more qualified to judge whether this technology is good or bad, on balance. One thing is certain: if you go into it just because you think it will be an "interesting project", you won't stay with it for long. --------------- LOL. Greg ran a remailer long before you apparently knew what a remailer was. Greg, as most of us who first subscribed to this list in 93 or 94, undoubtedly long has made up his mind as to the societal and individual benefits of encryption technology and remailers. What I find puzzling is where along the way we picked up the fair-weather "Cypherpunks" who are still grappling with Nomen's questions. Even more puzzling is that the discussion of crypto vs. safety is taking place at all. Crypto is out there, never to return back into the folds of governmental or law enforcement control. The horse had left the barn in the early 90's. It is /long/ gone. Even if the US were to outlaw the use of unescrowed encryption by every resident of the this planet today, it would have *zero* impact on the availability of strong crypto to criminals and terrorists. Banning crypto would not increase anybody's safety. Except perhaps the safety in office of dictatorial incumbent politicians. Which is no concern of mine. Of course, those calling for a ban on strong crypto are fully aware of this undeniable fact. Preventing terrorists from using crypto is not their objective, increasing the safety of you and me is not their goal. It is controlling our speech and thoughts that they are after. But they get there without the cooperation of the gullible. Resist! --Lucky From jya at pipeline.com Thu Sep 13 21:50:03 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 21:50:03 -0700 Subject: Sick Wacko in the Whitehouse In-Reply-To: References: <632e7d51b117c47db44351ffac53bfad@freedom.gmsociety.org> <632e7d51b117c47db44351ffac53bfad@freedom.gmsociety.org> Message-ID: <200109140200.WAA07198@mclean.mail.mindspring.net> >Your operational requirements are significantly different, so I'm >told by several military folks I've talked to, none of whom attempted >to play down the Afghan resolve, but simply pointed out that if we >didn't care about "keeping it", we would not encounter (all of) the >same difficulties Ivan did. Ah, but since Ivan tested his superpower battlefield capabilities on lightly armed Afghans and lost thanks to US assistance, the Afghans' neighborly Pakis have come up with nukes and perhaps a few other devices obtained from hardup Soviet CBW researchers who are eager to assist the Afghans just as the US did. Nobody would dare suggest the Slavs are looking for payback, and have lulled the last remaining superpower into thinking bygones are bygones, the cold war is over and done, as if thousands of handy airliners would never become giant Stingers. From ernest at luminous.com Thu Sep 13 22:00:06 2001 From: ernest at luminous.com (Ernest Hua) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 22:00:06 -0700 Subject: A Brevital Moment (was..Ignore Aimee Farr) Message-ID: Well said ... and I would imagine that May and Co. have very logical, reasonable and laudible goals. The problem here, is that the moderates on the list does not want to be defined by the extremes. (I am quite certain there will be some flaming to follow, as the indignations let loose.) The one question I would ask those who spout "XXX needs killing" is whether you really want to make a difference or just stand up for an isolated principle? You just might be right, but maybe no one noticed, and the ignorant masses (a.k.a. sheeples) just walked right over you (and your rights) anyway. Even in your world, it is not acceptable to point a gun at someone and demand that they act with reason or even enlightened self interest. Ernest (dusting off my flame proof vest) Hua -----Original Message----- From: Aimee Farr [mailto:aimee.farr at pobox.com] Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 6:26 PM To: citizenQ Cc: cypherpunks at lne.com Subject: A Brevital Moment (was..Ignore Aimee Farr) Mr. Ziplip wrote: > Tim - > > Behavioral psychologists will tell you that the best way to > extinguish an undesirable behavior is to IGNORE it. > > If Farr's posturings and baitings are truly to be made > ineffective, the best course of action amongst the cpunks who > care is to killfile the postings and refuse to engage on ANY level. My post was not "bait." The reason we have anything left of the amendments so frequently talked about in here is due to the independence of the judiciary. While you can question aforesaid independence, threatening the judiciary is beyond the pale. There are some posts in here that give me 'pause for psycholinguistic analysis.' As such, I worry that they could be misconstrued (Type 5...Type 6, compulsive or possible syndicate bombers even...) by some hypersensitive, uneducated people not intimately familiar with the history and quirks of this list -- in what has become a hypersensitive environment. Bell's "Assassination Politics" put cypherpunks on some protective intelligence agendas. It would not be implausible to assume you were being monitored to see if you "run" with the seeded assassination memes, if only for analytical purposes. These matters are taken seriously by those charged with the care of protected persons. (Contrary to what some here would have you believe, subtlety can get you a much higher threat-rating than overtly threatening correspondence.) > Rising to the bait, debating whether such-and-such a purpose is > behind Farr's postings, speculating on Farr's true intent, all > this does is spur on the postings, the baiting, the provocation. > Just say "no" to responding to ANY of Farr's postings, and I > would almost put money that the behavior will extinguish within a week. Baiting? Provocation? No, a caveat. Do not tolerate behavior of that nature. It subjects you all to scrutiny and mischaracterization. What about Mr. K-S that hides behind his hushmail jacket and asks for names and addresses.....why doesn't somebody cuss him out? ~Aimee From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Thu Sep 13 20:04:00 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 22:04:00 -0500 (CDT) Subject: "Attack on America" - a Personal Response (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 21:20:22 -0500 I can tell you one group that must get the shudders every time Bush or anyone else in the administration says, "These attacks are Acts of War." Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that both standard property and life insurance policies specifically exempt claims due to acts of war. Think about the fun and games in the courtrooms of America on THAT issue! From ernest at luminous.com Thu Sep 13 22:09:51 2001 From: ernest at luminous.com (Ernest Hua) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 22:09:51 -0700 Subject: A Call for a Chorus of Voices Message-ID: It seems like every bozo in Congress is leaning toward the "you can't do crypto" solution, which we know, just by the laws of nature, cannot work. Why is it, that no one has even suggested taking off the figurative handcuffs on what the NSA can or cannot use without court orders? The more cynical side of me says that they are already using it (yes, this means that they are already collecting it), and so it's not worth fighting for because that would only legalize something they're already doing. The more innocent side of me says that maybe they are jockeying to compromise on this: They already have huge sorting and correlation engines just waiting for Congress critters to say, "Okay, now you can legally turn on these toys ...". (Oh, ok, sir ... actually, we already did ... and you'll be proud of us, sir ... we caught every last one of dem fern'ner's ... oh ... you did, eh ... well, just remember to ask for permission next time ...) Ern From gbroiles at well.com Thu Sep 13 22:15:49 2001 From: gbroiles at well.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 22:15:49 -0700 Subject: chefren In-Reply-To: <15265.32843.518825.551642@nodens.uraeus.com> References: <200109140340.f8E3eYf20890@slack.lne.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20010913192001.02141e20@mail.well.com> <200109140340.f8E3eYf20890@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010913221205.03605c10@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 03:58 AM 9/14/2001 +0000, jmalcolm at uraeus.com wrote: >If my memory is correct, chefren was the chief proponent of building >in surveillance technologies on the IETF RAVEN list, which was >chartered to decide the response of the IETF to government requests >in that regard. Yes, that's him. In the course of those conversations it was revealed that he was an employee or principal of a European company which was producing a line of key-escrow crypto products, and he was hoping to bias the standards towards creating a market for his otherwise distasteful and shameful merchandise. So it's not surprising (but not encouraging) to see him reappear, marketing the same tired apologies for his unwanted and useless garbage, seeking to create a market by forcing people to buy a product they won't spend a dime on unless it's at gunpoint. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at well.com "We have found and closed the thing you watch us with." -- New Delhi street kids From shamrock at cypherpunks.to Thu Sep 13 22:30:25 2001 From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 22:30:25 -0700 Subject: Cnet blaming Declan Message-ID: This Cnet show keeps getting better. The host is now quoting Declan's article, stating that fortunately Declan's "affectionatos" are not in charge. And apparently an "An Metet" has emailed him a death thread... The host, David Lawrence, read the death thread on the air. This is on the air right now. Call (800) 39-ONLINE. Call if you disagree that strong crypto should be banned in the US. --Lucky [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/ms-tnef which had a name of winmail.dat] From shamrock at cypherpunks.to Thu Sep 13 23:03:47 2001 From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 23:03:47 -0700 Subject: FW: FREE GUN TRAINING FOR COMMERCIAL PILOTS Message-ID: Can't beat that deal. --Lucky -----Original Message----- From: info at frontsight.com [mailto:info at frontsight.com] Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 8:40 AM To: Front; Sight; News; Subscribers Subject: FREE GUN TRAINING FOR COMMERCIAL PILOTS FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE September 12, 2001 CONTACT: Dr. Ignatius Piazza 1.800.987.7719 Fax: 831.684.2137 e-mail: info at frontsight.com http://www.frontsight.com FREE GUN TRAINING FOR COMMERCIAL PILOTS LAS VEGAS, NEVADA: In the aftermath of the World Trade Center attack, Front Sight Firearms Training Institute, which claims to be the world leader in providing intensified courses in the defensive use of firearms for private citizens and law enforcement alike, feels they have the answer to stopping commercial airliners from being used as ballistic missiles. Front Sight will train every commercial pilot in the world FREE OF CHARGE in the defensive use of the handgun. Front Sight will accept for training all certified pilots and co-pilots from all commercial airliners that submit a request for training on commercial airliner letterhead, designating the pilot and co-pilot to carry a handgun in the cockpit to defend access to the airliner. The request for training letter must have the notarized signature of the airline's chief executive. Front Sight's Founder and Director, Dr. Ignatius Piazza understands that his offer may offend those who lack resolve in stopping terrorists from turning airliners into weapons of mass destruction. However, he is quick to point out that the World Trade Center attack is a new realm of terror, not previously witnessed in the world. Prior to the World Trade Center attack, terrorists were content to hijack planes and divert them to safe landings in exchange for negotiated release of imprisoned comrades. In extreme cases, terrorists have committed suicide by exploding the grounded plane. Airliners have also been targeted with bombs and possibly missiles to spectacularly explode in flight, killing all on board. The World Trade Center attack was a new form of terrorism, where the commercial airliner, loaded with fuel for a cross country flight is redirected from the cockpit and turned into an accurate missile of mass destruction. Front Sight knows this form of terrorism can be stopped immediately by arming all pilots and co-pilots and training them in the proper methods of defending their cockpits. "Commercial airliners must be willing to take an uncompromising stand that will not allow anyone, under any circumstances to access the controls of an airliner," says Piazza. "The pilot and co-pilot, are responsible for the security of the cockpit. Without a handgun to defend it, the cockpit crew is easily defeated. However, when both pilot and co-pilot are armed and trained by Front Sight, they have the tools, ability, and will to defend themselves and repel the murderous intent of terrorists. In an emergency, the pilot can fly the plane to a safe landing while the co-pilot covers the door of the cockpit- ready and willing to use deadly force to prevent anyone from opening the door." Dennis Vied, a retired TWA Captain with 28 years of experience flying commercial airliners and Front Sight student fully agrees with Front Sight's solution. Captain Vied states, "The terrorists knew that they would face no opposition to the hijacking, once they managed to get on the airplane. All they had to do was threaten to do something to a passenger, and they would be allowed access to the cockpit. If that didn't work, then they just had to hurt somebody, which in this case they did. Apparently they cut the throats of two of the flight attendants. The terrorists knew they would face no armed opposition, because the airline screening process would insure that nobody on the airplane would be armed. We have such an abhorrence to guns that we fail to allow the good people to arm themselves for defense. Therefore they are at the mercy of bad people- in this case the terrorists. I sincerely hope that this is a wakeup call to America. I think they should arm the crews, or at least allow those that want to be armed to do so. Otherwise, you're at the mercy of some crazy son-of-a-bitch armed with a box cutter! How absolutely absurd! There is so much emphasis on prevention, and precious little emphasis on the ultimate lines of defense." Aaron Benedetti, a United Airline 747 co-pilot since 1990 is a Platinum member at Front Sight and has already attended Front Sight courses in defensive handgun, tactical shotgun, and practical rifle. Through Front Sight's training, Benedetti is ready, willing and able to defend the cockpit of his aircraft if given the proper tools and authority to do so. Benedetti states, "We get recurrent training regarding hijacking and security procedures, but the training centers around placating and negotiating with the terrorists to safely land the plane. We are told not to make any aggressive move and to work toward a calm outcome. The World Trade Center disaster is a real blind spot in our training. The attack reveals that perhaps the only way the pilots could have stopped it would have been to deny access to the cockpit and stop the terrorists from taking over the controls of the plane by any means possible. In the future, we should consider that with the cockpit doors locked and the co-pilot guarding the door with a handgun, calm negotiations can still take place via intercom to land the plane safely thus avoiding another World Trade Center scenario." Aaron Benedetti recommends all airlines to take advantage of Front Sight's solution and offer. He returns to Front Sight later his year for further training on his own. Lieutenant Bob Redmond, SWAT Commander of Nye County Sheriff's Department concurs that Front Sight's training is exactly what the commercial airliners need and that they should immediately begin sending their pilots to Front Sight. Redmond, who sends his SWAT officers to Front Sight for firearms and tactical training states, "Front Sight's training exceeds levels offered by most if not all law enforcement agencies throughout the country. Front Sight's training is so good that I want every officer we have in the department to attend every course Front Sight offers. If airlines sent their pilots to Front Sight, it would be like having SWAT officers in the sky." Mark Donovan, a pilot for Southwest Airlines, who has taken over ten Front Sight courses in the last two years finds the current situation of unarmed pilots rather incredulous. Donavan explains, "The political climate in commercial aviation prior to the World Trade Center attack has not been conducive to arming pilots. In fact, just the opposite has occurred. Airlines have disarmed pilots to the point where a terrorist with a box cutter can take over control of a plane because no one is armed to defend the plane or themselves. Yet, numerous federal agencies are allowed to carry a gun on commercial airlines, including such dubiously qualified agencies as, Bureau of Engraving and Printing, Department of Agriculture, Department of Education, and the Smithsonian Institution! Why are federal agents from these obscure agencies allowed to carry a gun on board when a pilot with firearms training from Front Sight Firearms Training Institute is not allowed? My training at Front Sight far exceeds anything the federal government offers to these agencies." Donovan continues, "If we, as pilots are not given the means and authority to defend our aircraft as a last means of defense, then who will? It is apparent that time was not available to negotiate with the madmen in the World Trade Center attack. Clearly, a properly trained flight crew with a handgun could have saved countless lives. Front Sight offers this training. I urge all federal decision makers to seriously examine Front Sight's solution to the problem. I believe it is the only credible answer to stopping another horrendous tragedy." Front Sight is the Solution to Gun Violence Piazza reiterates, "Front Sight is truly part of the solution to gun violence in this country. Everyone agrees that law enforcement should have the very best training available. Front Sight provides it. And everyone agrees, regardless of what side of gun control one stands, that if law abiding private citizens are going to own firearms they should be trained. Front Sight provides such training to levels that exceeds the law enforcement community. Front Sight now offers the solution to stopping and forever preventing another World Trade Center attack by training commercial airline pilots to be that last line of defense for their passengers, airline, and our country. Front Sight stands ready, willing, and able to serve." Dr. Ignatius Piazza 1.800.987.7719 Front Sight Firearms Training Institute www.frontsight.com Captain Dennis Vied, retired TWA Pilot 925.455.0133 Aaron Benedetti, United Airlines Co-Pilot 925.454.5214 Lt.Bob Redmond, Nye County SWAT Commander 775.751.7002 Mark Donovan, SouthWest Pilot 702.270.3912 http://www.frontsight.com From tcmay at got.net Thu Sep 13 23:10:05 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 23:10:05 -0700 Subject: Why I'm Not Writing Impassioned Essays in Defense of Crypto and Privacy Message-ID: <200109140611.f8E6Bgf22109@slack.lne.com> When I see the calls for giving up the Fourth and First Amendments, the calls for backdoored crypto, the claims that Cypherpunks must put on "CypherAngels" red berets and join Curtis Sliwa and the San Francisco Police Academy in using their skills to narc out evil persons who choose not to escrow their diaries with the local and federal police, I am nauseated. (I have written half a dozen posts suggesting some of these people simply be killed by any means possible, but I have deleted most of them before sending. Frankly, I see a war coming and I see that hundreds of thousands of "them" need to be exterminated. But I digress.) I don't have the desire, energy, or patience to write the kinds of essays I wrote in 1992-95 (and even earlier, 1988-1991, before the Cypherpunks list). I wrote then about the implications of privacy, about the First and Fourth Amendments, about the technologies that were inexorably changing the landscape of fhe world. A lot of others did as well. (I guess I'm sort of glad, for nostalgic reasons, that my friend Eric Hughes wrote his "elegiac" piece...except I fell asleep after a few paragraphs of the Kennedyesque say-nothing-but-say-it-eligiacally article. Note to Eric: get some fire back in your belly, boy! This is war, and I don't mean war against some Arabs.) Newcomers like "Nomen Nescio," "Aimee Farr," and "chefron" are now whining about what some of them call "moral crypto" and are calling for "cooperation" with the government. Sort of like "moral hotel rooms," where every hotel videotapes room activities and "only shares when government shows a good reason." Or like calls for "ink escrow," where potential subversives, and everybody in fact, escrows their journal and letter writings just in case O'Brien feels a need to look at the writings of Lucky Green, Winston Smith, or Tim May. Feh, this is well-trod ground. Why am I not writing impassioned defenses of crypto? Because it was all said back in 1992-3 when the Clipper issue arose. (Clipper was leaked in April 1993. Very longterm subscribers may remember that I took an article written by Dorothy Denning (yes, _that_ Denning!) to likely mean a proposal was being considered to require government backdoors for all crypto. I wrote an artcle for sci.crypt entitled "A Trial Balloon To Ban Crypto?" which generated something like 500 responses on the Usenet, plus discussion on the brand-new Cypherpunks list and the Extropians list. This was in October 1992, almost 9 years ago. Deja/Google does not go back this far, nor do the Cypherpunks archives currently on the Web. But, I assure you, this happened.) I lack the patience to re-write the defenses of privacy and crypto I and others wrote so many years ago. I have probably averaged a few posts per day for 9 years, or, perhaps ten thousand or more posts. Some were just followups, but many launched threads. Perhaps 100 or so were major essays. Whatever, if I have not said it by now, a few more posts to try to convince Aimee Farr (who seems to read nothing of past discussions) or "chefron" or "Nomen Nescio" will obviously not make a difference. The 2001 debate is shaping up to be just a super-fast-forward version of the 1993 debate. Frankly, I have lost patience in many ways. I think most _active_ enemies of liberty should simply be killed. Lined up against the wall if there are ever trials, or killed en masse in their dens if necessary. Nothing is to be gained by arguing with them. I don't care if newbies to the issue are "put off" by my lack of patience. Others can play the role of high school teachers explaining the basics of the Constitution. And the archives exist, even if not all the way back to 1992-5. My own Cyphernomicon exists, from 1994, in (apparently) enough pieces that even the New World Order cannot stamp it out. The new Ludlow book, "Crypto Anarchy, Pirate Utopias, etc." (title similar to this) has some articles written by several of us that are better than anything we could write from scratch to use in argument with "chefron:" and "Nomen Nescio." Finally, I have finally received the proof copy of my chapter in Vernor Vinge and Jim Frenkel's long-delayed re-issue of "True Names." My chapter is entitled "True Nyms and Crypto Anarchy" and makes my strongest case. Unfortunately, I wrote the chapter several years ago, expecting publication by 1998 at the latest. The project was delayed and delayed and then I heard nothing and then it was announced and then delayed and...you get the picture. Jim Frenkel is urgently seeking minor corrections, with the final contract FedExed to me a few days ago, just in time to get caught in the WTC grounding! Talk about irony. I really don't care if Nomen Nescio and Jim Choate and Agent Farr like or dislike what is inevitably coming. It is coming, and millions will pay the price for their criminality. Hundreds of millions more will learn what freedom means. --Tim May From drevil at sidereal.kz Thu Sep 13 16:16:58 2001 From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil) Date: 13 Sep 2001 23:16:58 -0000 Subject: Eric Hughes' email Message-ID: <20010913231658.2263.qmail@sidereal.kz> Hi, does anyone have a copy of the email Eric Hughes sent out? I somehow didn't get it and I can't find it in the archive. Thanks! From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Thu Sep 13 23:37:12 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 23:37:12 -0700 Subject: A Brevital Moment (was..Ignore Aimee Farr) Message-ID: <200109140637.f8E6bC324529@mailserver1.hushmail.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 1805 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Thu Sep 13 21:43:11 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 23:43:11 -0500 (CDT) Subject: "Attack on America" - a Personal Response (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20010914002701.A2429@positron.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Riad S. Wahby wrote: > The labels "act of terrorism" and "act of war" are mutually exclusive. > The former is by definition perpetrated by a non-governmental group; > the latter requires actions by a government. The claims by Dubya et > al to the contrary are incoherent politibabble. Malarky. War - conflict by force of arms, as between nations Terrorism - calculated use of violence, mayhem, and murder to inspire terror. It's a question of scale, not participants. A nation can engage in terrorism (eg Syria, Libya). -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Thu Sep 13 21:48:05 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 23:48:05 -0500 Subject: ScienceDaily Magazine -- Quantum Computer Could Solve Problems In A Few Months That Would Take Conventional Computers Millions Of Years Message-ID: <3BA18C05.E618B49@ssz.com> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/09/010913074828.htm -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From schear at lvcm.com Thu Sep 13 23:56:07 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 23:56:07 -0700 Subject: Cnet blaming Declan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010913235347.03803ea0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 10:30 PM 9/13/2001 -0700, Lucky Green wrote: >This Cnet show keeps getting better. The host is now quoting Declan's >article, stating that fortunately Declan's "affectionatos" are not in >charge. And apparently an "An Metet" has emailed him a death thread... The >host, David Lawrence, read the death thread on the air. > > >This is on the air right now. Call (800) 39-ONLINE. Call if you disagree >that strong crypto should be banned in the US. Tried to call in but apparently David didn't want to hear anymore from our side. steve From aimee.farr at pobox.com Thu Sep 13 22:00:13 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 00:00:13 -0500 Subject: Congress mulls crypto restrictions in response to attacks In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010913201418.009732d0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: > At 04:17 PM 9/13/01 -0500, Aimee Farr wrote: > >Amateur radio was the first casualty after Pearl Harbor. Some > criticize the > >action now, of course. > > > >~Aimee Honig: > Nice analogy. However, it wasn't like there were 1e7 full-band HAM rigs > in lots of living rooms, back then. Agree. Just came to mind. > The internet provides infinate bandwidth, vs. HAMs' little slices of > spectrum, or > cable's feeble Gigahertz pipe. Like the sky. Hm. "Open Skies." Eisenhower. That's a scary line of thought... How would "backdoor" cooperation be reconciled with heightened concerns over privatized economic espionage? (Is there a conflict? Is that not a new element, at least in terms of international concern?) ~Aimee From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Thu Sep 13 22:07:36 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 00:07:36 -0500 (CDT) Subject: "Attack on America" - a Personal Response (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20010914010129.A2774@positron.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Riad S. Wahby wrote: > Jim Choate wrote: > > It's a question of scale, not participants. A nation can engage in > > terrorism (eg Syria, Libya). > > Squirrel definition! Don't you know that squirrels are poor form and > generally lead to point reduction? Obviously you were never a debate > judge. :-P Boo Hoo. > The relevant definitions here are clearly not those of Webster, but > those of the appropriate US laws. By said laws, it is most certainly > _not_ a question of scale. Governments can't be terrorists, period. > The letter of the law. I don't believe that particular 'boundary condition' was included in the original question/point. In fact, injecting spurious boundary conditions after the problem is presented (ie "Oh, I meant to include...) is itself considered bad form, logically speaking. As to the point, if nations can't participate in terrorism then exactly what is it that Afghanistan is being theatened with for harboring the raghead? Exactly why did their leaders go into hiding again? Exactly why is Pakistan running around like a sub-woofie? Exactly why did the US use F-111's to drop bombs on a particular 'rogue state' for engaging in 'terrorism' (ie Libya)? What exactly do you thing Amin was doing, besides killing croc's that is... You've got your beenie wound too tight junior. -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Thu Sep 13 22:15:57 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 00:15:57 -0500 Subject: Google Search: state sponsored terrorism Message-ID: <3BA1928D.36F68CA@ssz.com> http://www.google.com/search?q=state+sponsored+terrorism -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From anmetet at freedom.gmsociety.org Thu Sep 13 21:16:10 2001 From: anmetet at freedom.gmsociety.org (An Metet) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 00:16:10 -0400 Subject: Sick Wacko in the Whitehouse Message-ID: <7139c4339daf2d260148ae0522c1a8a4@freedom.gmsociety.org> > Our only hope is that his is an "assisted living" situation, surrounded by > enough possibly more intelligent and experienced men and women to prevent the > most heinous missteps. Rather thin ice to be treading then. One should hope that his handlers put a stop to him soonest. An invasion of Afganistan will likely as not result in a suitcase nuke becoming the next Manhattan Project. From declan at well.com Thu Sep 13 21:16:51 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 00:16:51 -0400 Subject: chefren In-Reply-To: <15265.32843.518825.551642@nodens.uraeus.com>; from jmalcolm@uraeus.com on Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 03:58:03AM +0000 References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010913192001.02141e20@mail.well.com> <200109140340.f8E3eYf20890@slack.lne.com> <15265.32843.518825.551642@nodens.uraeus.com> Message-ID: <20010914001651.C12805@cluebot.com> Rob Carlson is a Linux geek and open-source type who is pretty cypherpunkly, as things go. Had dinner with him and some other DC folks this evening. I think you're right about chefren. -Declan On Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 03:58:03AM +0000, jmalcolm at uraeus.com wrote: > If my memory is correct, chefren was the chief proponent of building > in surveillance technologies on the IETF RAVEN list, which was > chartered to decide the response of the IETF to government requests > in that regard. (More or less - my memory isn't exact on the wording.) > The resultant discussions were rather heated and quickly went > nowhere, which didn't stop chefren from singlehandedly trying to make > others see the error of their ways. > > So the forwarded message is not particularly surprising. > > (I don't know "Rob Carlson".) From nobody at dizum.com Thu Sep 13 15:20:19 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 00:20:19 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Cypherpunks and terrorism Message-ID: Greg Broiles writes: > I propose that this sort of discussion - about whether or not, in the face > of violence and tragedy, some aspect of human freedom and expression can be > suitably "justified" to satisfy every self-appointed devil's advocate - is > absolutely unproductive and serves only to suck energy and concentration > from more interesting projects. It's astonishing that you should say this. It is at exactly this time that soul searching is most appropriate. Now is when you should ask yourself: Am I doing the right thing? Am I making the world a better place? You don't have to convince some devil's advocate. Just convince yourself. You're about to begin running a remailer. Apparently you haven't done so before. Well, it should be quite an education. Keep it up for a year and you'll be more qualified to judge whether this technology is good or bad, on balance. One thing is certain: if you go into it just because you think it will be an "interesting project", you won't stay with it for long. From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Thu Sep 13 22:24:16 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 00:24:16 -0500 Subject: 3 Airline Employees Test Security - It fails... Message-ID: <3BA19480.723A1C8E@ssz.com> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20010913/aponline231050_000.htm -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From mix at noisebox.remailer.org Thu Sep 13 23:25:27 2001 From: mix at noisebox.remailer.org (noisebox remailer admin) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 00:25:27 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Remailers and Greg Broiles (was RE: Cypherpunks and terrorism) Message-ID: I'd like to take the opportunity now to do something I should have done over a year ago. Last year, a Scientologist attorney threatened my DNS provider, resulting in the immediate termination of my remailer's hostname. Greg Broiles graciously and promptly offered the use of remailer.org to the noisebox remailer, which I gratefully accepted. Thank you very much. -- noisebox remailer admin. On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Nomen Nescio wrote: > You're about to begin running a remailer. Apparently you haven't done > so before. Well, it should be quite an education. Keep it up for a > year and you'll be more qualified to judge whether this technology is > good or bad, on balance. One thing is certain: if you go into it just > because you think it will be an "interesting project", you won't stay > with it for long. From rsw at MIT.EDU Thu Sep 13 21:27:01 2001 From: rsw at MIT.EDU (Riad S. Wahby) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 00:27:01 -0400 Subject: "Attack on America" - a Personal Response (fwd) In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com on Thu, Sep 13, 2001 at 10:04:00PM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20010914002701.A2429@positron.mit.edu> Jim Choate wrote: > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 21:20:22 -0500 > I can tell you one group that must get the shudders every time Bush or > anyone else in the administration says, "These attacks are Acts of > War." Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that both standard property > and life insurance policies specifically exempt claims due to acts of > war. Think about the fun and games in the courtrooms of America on THAT issue! The labels "act of terrorism" and "act of war" are mutually exclusive. The former is by definition perpetrated by a non-governmental group; the latter requires actions by a government. The claims by Dubya et al to the contrary are incoherent politibabble. This has been discussed within the last month here on the list, IIRC. -- Riad Wahby rsw at mit.edu MIT VI-2/A 2002 From ravage at ssz.com Thu Sep 13 22:28:49 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 00:28:49 -0500 Subject: Independent News - Coded warnings raise the spectre of a mole inside the White House Message-ID: <3BA19591.D5210E47@ssz.com> http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/story.jsp?story=93993 (And, Yes, I draw exception to his use of the word missile also...) -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Thu Sep 13 22:33:04 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 00:33:04 -0500 Subject: US ruling out Iraq as attack sponsor in bid for coalition Message-ID: <3BA19690.D94AA898@ssz.com> http://www.worldtribune.com/wta/Archive-2001/ss_iraq_09_13.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rsw at mit.edu Thu Sep 13 22:01:29 2001 From: rsw at mit.edu (Riad S. Wahby) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 01:01:29 -0400 Subject: "Attack on America" - a Personal Response (fwd) In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@einstein.ssz.com on Thu, Sep 13, 2001 at 11:43:11PM -0500 References: <20010914002701.A2429@positron.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20010914010129.A2774@positron.mit.edu> Jim Choate wrote: > It's a question of scale, not participants. A nation can engage in > terrorism (eg Syria, Libya). Squirrel definition! Don't you know that squirrels are poor form and generally lead to point reduction? Obviously you were never a debate judge. :-P The relevant definitions here are clearly not those of Webster, but those of the appropriate US laws. By said laws, it is most certainly _not_ a question of scale. Governments can't be terrorists, period. The letter of the law. -- Riad Wahby rsw at mit.edu MIT VI-2/A 2002 From rsw at mit.edu Thu Sep 13 23:46:38 2001 From: rsw at mit.edu (Riad S. Wahby) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 02:46:38 -0400 Subject: "Attack on America" - a Personal Response (fwd) In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@einstein.ssz.com on Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 12:07:36AM -0500 References: <20010914010129.A2774@positron.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20010914024638.A3113@positron.mit.edu> Jim Choate wrote: > I don't believe that particular 'boundary condition' was included in the > original question/point. In fact, injecting spurious boundary conditions > after the problem is presented (ie "Oh, I meant to include...) is itself > considered bad form, logically speaking. Jim, I must admit I'm surprised to see even the likes of you making the above argument. The question is thus: "were actions X, Y, and Z acts of terrorism or acts of war?" If the answer is war, the insurance contract states that no coverage will be provided. If the answer is terrorism, the insurance companies will have to pay in full the $11e9 policy carried by the WTC. If there is some disagreement as to whether or not the attacks were acts of terrorism or acts of war, it will be settled in court. In said court, the standard that will be considered is the legal one. See below for Clearly, then, the original question did include that boundary condition. > As to the point, if nations can't participate in terrorism then exactly > what is it that Afghanistan is being theatened with for harboring the > raghead? Exactly why did their leaders go into hiding again? Exactly why is > Pakistan running around like a sub-woofie? Exactly why did the US use > F-111's to drop bombs on a particular 'rogue state' for engaging in > 'terrorism' (ie Libya)? What exactly do you thing Amin was doing, besides > killing croc's that is... None of the above is relevant. According to 22 USC Sec. 2656f(d) [1]: the term "terrorism" means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents The House Subcommittee on National Security, Veterans' Affairs, and International Relations has stated that the above sets the standard for a terrorist act [2]. By this definition, it's pretty clear that the events of 9/11 were terrorism. If there is a government that was supporting the people who committed Tuesday's acts of terrorism, the only action that can be considered an act of war is that of lending support or quarter to the terrorists. The terrorists are still responsible for the destruction of the WTC, and said destruction is still an act of terrorism. Thus, it is undoubtedly the case that an act of terrorism was committed in the destruction of the WTC. In addition, it is possible that an act of war has been committed, although it is currently unclear whether one has or not. > You've got your beenie wound too tight junior. Find a new thread on which to blather, Choate. You're way out of your league. [1] http://envirotext.eh.doe.gov/data/uscode/22/2656f.shtml [2] http://www.house.gov/reform/ns/web_resources/briefing_memo_march_27_2001.htm -- Riad Wahby rsw at mit.edu MIT VI-2/A 2002 From rsw at MIT.EDU Thu Sep 13 23:54:51 2001 From: rsw at MIT.EDU (Riad S. Wahby) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 02:54:51 -0400 Subject: Google Search: state sponsored terrorism In-Reply-To: <3BA1928D.36F68CA@ssz.com>; from ravage@einstein.ssz.com on Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 12:15:57AM -0500 References: <3BA1928D.36F68CA@ssz.com> Message-ID: <20010914025451.B3113@positron.mit.edu> Jim Choate wrote: > http://www.google.com/search?q=state+sponsored+terrorism Nice try. None of the first ten pages contains the phrase "act of war." I'm willing to bet the pattern continues, but I have class in 6 hours and sleep is more valuable than proving you wrong over and over again, Jim. -- Riad Wahby rsw at mit.edu MIT VI-2/A 2002 From rsw at MIT.EDU Fri Sep 14 00:01:50 2001 From: rsw at MIT.EDU (Riad S. Wahby) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 03:01:50 -0400 Subject: "Attack on America" - a Personal Response (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20010914024638.A3113@positron.mit.edu>; from rsw@MIT.EDU on Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 02:46:38AM -0400 References: <20010914010129.A2774@positron.mit.edu> <20010914024638.A3113@positron.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20010914030150.C3113@positron.mit.edu> "Riad S. Wahby" wrote: > legal one. See below for ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ...the formal text of the standard. etc. -- Riad Wahby rsw at mit.edu MIT VI-2/A 2002 From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Fri Sep 14 06:25:57 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 03:25:57 -1000 Subject: Sick Wacko in the Whitehouse In-Reply-To: <3BA1E9F1.95676781@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> References: <632e7d51b117c47db44351ffac53bfad@freedom.gmsociety.org> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010914032509.01be3aa0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 12:28 PM 9/14/2001 +0100, Ken Brown wrote: >We have statues of them dotted around central London. So-and-so the >conqueror of Sind. Whats-his-name the hero of the Punjab. No-one now >remembers who they were, or anything about them, unless they happened to >have a city named for them, or become Prime Minister of some remote >colony, or die nobly surrounded by hordes of locals asking impolitely >for their land back. Your very English sentiments noted. Get back in queue. Reese From attila at hun.org Thu Sep 13 20:38:23 2001 From: attila at hun.org (attila!) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 03:38:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: European Socialists say U.S. had it coming --it figures Message-ID: <20010914033823.6D56B3465A@hun.org> Thu, 8pm EDT As to be expected, the European left-wing liberal countries and their leaders are already back-sliding and urging the U.S. not to massively retaliate --eg: let the Islamists get away with their terror act. Well, we can always count on the French to hope we fall on our face, and the Germans have neither patriotism nor spine. The time to retaliate was in the first few hours while everyone was in shock and looking for blood; now Europe's pansy liberals have gone back to their usual condescending head-in-the-sand attitudes. For France to say the U.S. had it coming, maybe France should be one of the targets? The only way to stop terrorism is to make the people of the countries who succor and harbor the terrorists really feel the pain. Blow away a country or two --then ask "Next?" --after you have everyone's attention. THAT is how you stop terrorism, George.... From Ian at Goddard.net Fri Sep 14 00:53:19 2001 From: Ian at Goddard.net (Ian Goddard) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 03:53:19 -0400 Subject: Flight 93 Questions Message-ID: WAS UNITED AIRLINES FLIGHT 93 SHOT DOWN BY U.S. FIGHTER? (c) 9/14/01 Ian Williams Goddard Yesterday (9/13/01) a Reuters report stated that the FBI cannot rule out that hijacked Flight 93 was shot down by a US fighter jet before it crashed in Pennsylvania. [1] Citing indications of a shoot down, the report states: "Pennsylvania state police officials said on Thursday debris from the plane had been found up to 8 miles away [from the crash site] in a residential community where local media have quoted residents as speaking of a second plane in the area and burning debris falling from the sky." Finding debris miles from the crash site indicates that the aircraft was disintegrating well before it hit the ground, as would be the case if the other plane witnesses saw shot it down. The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette reports that the debris found miles from the crash site included "clothing, books, papers and what appeared to be human remains." [2] The secretary of defense says Flight 93 was not shot down.[3] While major media have widely reported that a frantic 911 call was made from Flight 93 stating "We are being hijacked, We are being hijacked," a local Pennsylvania paper reports that the passenger also reported hearing an explosion and seeing smoke coming from the plane, consistent with a shoot down. As the Somerest, PA paper The Daily American states: "[A] passenger locked in a bathroom aboard United Flight 93 called the 911 ... 'We are being hijacked, we are being hijacked!' dispatch supervisor Glenn Cramer from Westmoreland County quoted the man from a transcript of the call. The man told dispatchers the plane 'was going down. He heard some sort of explosion and saw white smoke coming from the plane and we lost contact with him,' Cramer said." [4] So we have (1) witness accounts of a second plane in the area, (2) burning debris falling, (3) debris falling up to 8 miles from the crash site, (4) human remains falling miles from the crash site, and (5) reports from a passenger that an explosion was heard near the plane and white smoke was coming from the plane. Do these facts support early reports that Flight 93 was shot down by a US fighter jet? Could the the terrorists have smuggled in and detonated a bomb? At the least these facts appear to be inconsistent with the leading scenario being played in the media that the plane crashed as a result of a struggle for control on board the doomed flight. Assuming the aircraft was shot down, under the circumstances -- other hijackers reasonably connected to the hijackers on Flight 93 using other jets to cause massive casualties on the ground -- it would be difficult to define the act unethical. Indeed, it would have arguably been an heroic act. However, the wrong would be lying to the public about what happened. ___________________________________________________________ [1] Reuters: FBI Cannot Rule Out Shootdown of Penn. Plane. By David Morgan. September 13, 2001. http://us.news2.yimg.com/f/42/31/7m/dailynews.yahoo.com/ h/nm/20010913/ts/attack_pennsylvania_dc_4.html [2] Pittsburg Post-Gazette: Investigators locate 'black box' from Flight 93; widen search area in Somerset crash. By T. Gibb, J. O'Toole, C. Lash. September 13, 2001. http://post-gazette.com/headlines/20010913somersetp3.asp [3] Pittsburg Post-Gazette: Somerset crash scene searched; 'hero' may have aborted terror mission. By T. Gibb, C. Lash J. O'Toole. September 12, 2001. Can't reaquire URL via search. [4] Daily American: International terror touches Somerset County. By Sandra Lepley. http://www.dailyamerican.com/disaster.html ============================================================== COMING SOON TO AN INTERNET NEAR YOU: http://www.IanGoddard.Net ============================================================== Unless that one also disappears. Network Solutions "lost" my domain "IanGoddard.com" that I registered first and paid for. Shortly after NS lost it someone else came and registered it. I've sent NS my record of transaction and credit-card receipt, yet they refuse to respond to my requests for an explanation. I'll bet they would never lose the domains for CNN or CBSNews. ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************** From jmalcolm at uraeus.com Thu Sep 13 20:58:03 2001 From: jmalcolm at uraeus.com (jmalcolm at uraeus.com) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 03:58:03 +0000 (UTC) Subject: chefren In-Reply-To: <200109140340.f8E3eYf20890@slack.lne.com> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010913192001.02141e20@mail.well.com> <200109140340.f8E3eYf20890@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: <15265.32843.518825.551642@nodens.uraeus.com> If my memory is correct, chefren was the chief proponent of building in surveillance technologies on the IETF RAVEN list, which was chartered to decide the response of the IETF to government requests in that regard. (More or less - my memory isn't exact on the wording.) The resultant discussions were rather heated and quickly went nowhere, which didn't stop chefren from singlehandedly trying to make others see the error of their ways. So the forwarded message is not particularly surprising. (I don't know "Rob Carlson".) From nobody at dizum.com Thu Sep 13 21:40:10 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 06:40:10 +0200 (CEST) Subject: A Brevital Moment (was..Ignore Aimee Farr) Message-ID: <7f745f8aa4176296f5ccae4fe55c7fe2@dizum.com> > What about Mr. K-S that hides behind his hushmail jacket and asks for names > and addresses.....why doesn't somebody cuss him out? > > ~Aimee Hmmm! Could it be that most people who aren't sheeple agree with him? From nobody at dizum.com Thu Sep 13 22:00:18 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 07:00:18 +0200 (CEST) Subject: A Call for a Chorus of Voices Message-ID: <81022d68aae6d8fee3439b34914708c4@dizum.com> In these days after the World Trade Center attacks, calls are being heard for restrictions on access to the technologies of privacy. As more and more communications go by e-mail, chat rooms and cell phones, our intelligence and law enforcement agencies are beginning to rely on surveillance of these systems in order to collect information about dangers to society. Early reports suggest that some of the information about the terrorists has come from monitored cell phone signals. These monitoring and surveillance operations are threatened by new technologies based on cryptography. No longer just for spies, cryptography can be used to encrypt e-mail, chat messages, and even telephone communications so that they are hidden from outsiders. Exotic cryptographic technologies potentially provide even more protection for terrorists as they plan and coordinate attacks. Osama bin Laden, the figure most often named as a possible mastermind of the terrorist strikes, is said to have trained his operatives in the use of these technologies in order to communicate securely. They encrypt messages and then use the related technology called steganography to embed them undetectably in pictures, music and other seemingly innocent data. They are said to use anonymous mail accounts to deliver these messages to chat rooms and bulletin boards where they can be downloaded by other agents. This allows the group members to communicate completely undetectably. Not only that, it preserves the terrorist "cell" structure - different members don't have to know the identity or even email addresses of others in order to communicate. All they need to know is in what public forum to look for and leave messages. Their identities are completely protected through these technologies. Clearly, cryptographic privacy and anonymity are tremendously valuable to terrorists, and tremendously obstructive to the efforts of law enforcement to use electronic surveillance. Representatives of these organizations have warned for years that criminals and terrorists would begin making use of cryptographic technologies, and their fears have now been realized. Under the present circumstances, legislators are beginning to call for restrictions on access to cryptographic technology. Old proposals are being revived to require that all encryption systems contain a "back door" which would allow law enforcement access to the contents of a communication. We face many dangers at this moment. The smoking ruins where some of our proudest buildings once stood, temporary tombs to thousands of innocent dead, plainly demonstrate the difficulties ahead. Under the circumstances it is appropriate for us to consider the balance between security and freedom which we will adopt as we prosecute a new kind of war. As in past wars, sacrifices will be necessary for all of us. No one should underestimate the hardships ahead. At the same time, it is important to remember what we are fighting for. It's not just revenge for the people killed and the buildings destroyed. We are fighting for our way of life. If we ignore terrorism, we will live in fear, always wondering what new horror will be dropping from the skies. We will be restricted in how we live, what we do, where we go. Our legacy as free Americans will be lost. This is why we fight. We fight for freedom. Given these goals, restricting access to cryptography must be understood to be a complex issue. It's not as simple as taking tools out of the hand of bin Laden and other terrorists. Cracking down on cryptography will reduce the freedom of all Americans while failing to effectively eliminate the use of the technology by those who threaten us. The fundamental problem is that the tools already exist which allow terrorists to communicate securely. Many of them are in the form of free software, distributed on hundreds of thousands of computers around the world, which can be run on any ordinary PC. Much of it was developed by private individuals for their own use, and then donated to the world. Any new law to limit cryptographic technology would have no effect on the use of this large base of existing software and hardware. Steganography and related technologies will make it impossible to detect the use of now-forbidden software. The new breed of terrorists from bin Laden's training schools will continue to be able to use these tools. Laws will be ineffective in preventing their use. The only real effect of these laws would be to prevent honest Americans from communicating with true privacy. They are the ones who would honor the ban and they would be the only ones effected. They would have their privacy taken away while bin Laden and his associates are able to communicate with perfect secrecy. While not many citizens make use of cryptographic technology now, experts predict that it will be increasingly important in the future. In an Internet where attacks of all sorts are becoming ever more sophisticated and numerous, cryptography will be a central technology in building the secure systems of the future. Limiting and restricting cryptography will only make the Internet less secure. When proposals for restrictions on cryptography first surfaced in the 1990s, security experts carefully analyzed the suggestions. The response, virtually unanimous, was that putting back doors in cryptography would reduce its reliability, security, and efficiency, while increasing costs. Any back door is a potential security hole. The hackers and crackers who are expert at exploiting flaws are going to be given a new set of targets for their attacks. Indeed, in the years since, a number of incidents have confirmed these fears. Last year, for example, the widely used PGP encryption software was found to have a vulnerability related to the "Additional Decryption Key", a feature added to the commercial version for back door access to messages by corporate management. Attackers could specify fake Additional Decryption Keys and get them accepted by the software, allowing them to read any message sent. The inherent complexity in the implementation of the Additional Decryption Key feature left a security hole open, exactly as had been predicted. Any requirement for government access back doors would undoubtedly lead to similar weaknesses in other systems. And next time the problems might not be found by someone who was willing to reveal them publicly so that they could be fixed. In a world where all fielded cryptographic technology had mandatory back doors, discovery of an exploit could be used for financial gain, information warfare, or even new forms of terrorism. It is certain that the Chinese and other competitors on the world stage would put their best analysts on the job of finding weaknesses which they could exploit in the future. Restrictions on cryptography would weaken our Internet infrastructure without achieving their goal of precluding use of the technology by those who threaten us. They are a bad idea for both of these reasons, but there is a more fundamental objection as well. The point of our war on terrorism is to preserve our freedom, our way of life. We cannot allow ourselves to take shortcuts in this battle which eliminate fundamental freedoms. And nothing is more fundamental than our freedom of speech and communication. It is enshrined in the very first amendment to the constitution. Cryptography is fundamentally a form of free speech. It is the freedom to speak privately and anonymously. Yes, it can be exploited by criminals. But that is the price we must pay as a country which is dedicated to the ideals of freedom. We accept the risk of allowing criminals their freedom to communicate because we value and cherish this as a fundamental right. We will not allow our country to be turned into an Orwellian surveillance state, where every word we speak and every deed we do occurs under the eyes of government agents. The very idea is anathema to Americans. But this is exactly what is being called for by those who propose to forbid citizens to communicate in a manner which cannot be heard and understood by the government. We face challenges ahead, and we must find a balance between security and freedom. But we must not allow ourselves to be blinded by fear and panic, so that we discard truly fundamental freedoms in what will ultimately be a futile attempt to increase security. This would be the worst of both worlds. We would have lost a major element of freedom of speech, the freedom to communicate without government surveillance. And we would have failed to effectively prevent terrorists from using cryptographic technologies to their own ends. From ravage at ssz.com Fri Sep 14 05:16:41 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 07:16:41 -0500 (CDT) Subject: "Attack on America" - a Personal Response (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20010914024638.A3113@positron.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Riad S. Wahby wrote: > Jim Choate wrote: > > I don't believe that particular 'boundary condition' was included in the > > original question/point. In fact, injecting spurious boundary conditions > > after the problem is presented (ie "Oh, I meant to include...) is itself > > considered bad form, logically speaking. > > Jim, I must admit I'm surprised to see even the likes of you making > the above argument. Considering your logic so far, this doesn't surprise me. > The question is thus: "were actions X, Y, and Z acts of terrorism or > acts of war?" Exactly, and you ASSUMED A PRIORI that I would accept your definitions without stipulation. Since you're the representative of the 'government' and are making the prooposal it is standard practice that the 'opposition' get to question the definitions for relevency. I did, you lost. Your definition of 'war' and 'terrorism' are inaccurate. The claim that there is some 'legal definition' that prevents 'nations' or 'states' from participating in 'terrorism' is inaccurate. Even the US (whose laws I'm ASSUMING you're are refering to) recognizes 'state sponsored terrorism'. In short the very pillars of your argument have been demonstrated to be false. Your argument failed. In responce you're not ingaging in straw man and ad hominim hoping that nobody will notice. Come back when you can play with adults. -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Sep 14 05:17:46 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 07:17:46 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Google Search: state sponsored terrorism In-Reply-To: <20010914025451.B3113@positron.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Riad S. Wahby wrote: > Jim Choate wrote: > > http://www.google.com/search?q=state+sponsored+terrorism > > Nice try. > > None of the first ten pages contains the phrase "act of war." Which is irrelevant. The question isn't whether 'terrorism' is an 'act of war'. The assertion was that 'states' can't engage in 'terrorism'. -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody at dizum.com Thu Sep 13 22:20:19 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 07:20:19 +0200 (CEST) Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: > that I have succeeded in compiling Mixmaster 2.9beta23 on the FreeBSD 4.4 > release candidate, and in concert with other cpunks, am putting together a > 2.9beta24 package which includes a number of patches recently circulated. And you will, presumably, post the availability of same when done? I too am readying a remailer, but am holding back until I can build a cdrom based server, for one so I don't need to worry about hackers, for two so I don't have to worry about logs. Also want to make that box a freenet and mojo server. I'm running 2.9beta23 now, seems to work okay, but haven't published the keys yet because of the above. And since they'd be changing soon anyway. From ffapro at mail2agent.com Fri Sep 14 06:24:31 2001 From: ffapro at mail2agent.com (ffapro at mail2agent.com) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 07:24:31 -0600 (GMT) Subject: DEPOSIT $100 - $400 IN YOUR BANK ACCOUNT DAILY! Message-ID: <20010914132453.16218.qmail@mail.guardianhosting.net> DEPOSIT $100 - $400 IN YOUR BANK ACCOUNT DAILY! Need income immediately? Tired of wondering if you will be paid for your advertising efforts after months of promoting? We have a program that will allow you to pickup payments instantly. You can begin depositing money in your bank account before the weekend. Unlike other Internet programs, our program will provide advertisement resources for the promotion of YOUR PERSONAL project. You will also constantly enjoy a considerable daily cash flow. You will simply activate other advertisers Suites and get paid $20.00 each time you do so. If you have an immediate cash flow need, then this is the program you need to examine: http://www.earlybank.com/suite256/ads Personal Message: Let us all pray for the family's of those who have fallen in the wake of the tragedy that has befallen our Nation. If you are able to give blood, please do so. There is a great demand for it. If you would like to make a donation, I know that PayPal.com has set up a relief fund on their sites. But most of all...let us all pray. Prayer in numbers is a very powerful thing! Take care and God Bless You All! REMOVAL INFORMATION: THIS IS NOT SPAM. We are members of the same safelists or have exchanged email opportunities in the past. Examples... FFA Pages, 911 Hits, and many FREE lists provide by Listbot, Coollist, OntopicMail, List-Source, Globeclubs, egroups, etc. If you receive this message more than once, please accept our deepest apologies. We may have been in contact more than once and I have duplicated your address. If you wish to be removed, please contact the proper list moderator or email us at mailto:removeme at mail2techie.com with REMOVE in the subject line and we will be happy to help get you removed, but we'll be sorry to see you go. Thanks for your time and God Bless! This email ad is being sent in full compliance with U.S. Senate Bill 1618, Title #3, Section 301." (which states "A statement that further transmissions of unsolicited commercial electronic mail to the recipient by the person who initiates transmission of the message may be stopped at no cost to the recipient by sending a removal request to the above email address.) From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Sep 14 05:36:20 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 07:36:20 -0500 Subject: Taliban anticipating massive US attack, vows revenge Message-ID: <3BA1F9C4.4B1FC21F@ssz.com> http://asia.dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/world/afp/article.html?s=asia/headlines/010914/world/afp/Taliban_anticipating_massive_US_attack__vows_revenge.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Fri Sep 14 05:40:32 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 07:40:32 -0500 Subject: First Demo Of Beam Of Electrons Diffracted By Laser Message-ID: <3BA1FAC0.60435EBB@ssz.com> http://unisci.com/stories/20013/0914012.htm -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Sep 14 05:42:24 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 07:42:24 -0500 Subject: ScienceDaily Magazine -- Brain Imaging Study Sheds Light On Moral Decision-Making Message-ID: <3BA1FB30.DF5D8B7B@ssz.com> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/09/010914074303.htm -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From drevil at sidereal.kz Fri Sep 14 01:06:03 2001 From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil) Date: 14 Sep 2001 08:06:03 -0000 Subject: Sick Wacko in the Whitehouse In-Reply-To: <632e7d51b117c47db44351ffac53bfad@freedom.gmsociety.org> (message from An Metet on Thu, 13 Sep 2001 20:50:20 -0400) References: <632e7d51b117c47db44351ffac53bfad@freedom.gmsociety.org> Message-ID: <20010914080603.27559.qmail@sidereal.kz> > The evening news says Dubbya is asking Congress for > 20 billion for his little war, and it sounds like the > moron is actually going to try to invade Afganistan. I > hope, in one respect, they actually do it. It will be > amusing to watch the body bags coming home as the Afgans > kick Yankee butt just like they did Ivan's. Isn't there some rule that says "don't start a land war in Asia"? It sounds like that's what's going to happen. The idea of kicking some terrorist ass may be gratifying, but the practice of it may be more than the US can stomach. Salon has a good article sugesting that the US should treat this as a criminal manhunt, not as a military matter, for quite a few sound reasons, which include the idea that a military action will cost the US allies, but a manhunt may help retain allies. > How did you people ever allow this delusional sub-normal wacko > to become your leader? For those of us old enough to remember, > he sounds more and more like Adolf Hitler. Oh no, Hitler has come up in this thread! From tcmay at got.net Fri Sep 14 08:27:57 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 08:27:57 -0700 Subject: The Enemies List In-Reply-To: <3BA2109D.5898.11BCB9DA@localhost> Message-ID: <200109141529.f8EFTSf24742@slack.lne.com> On Friday, September 14, 2001, at 05:13 AM, chefren wrote: > On 13 Sep 2001, at 20:38, Tim May wrote: > >> On Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 06:22 PM, chefren wrote: >> >> Cypherpunks, I am forwarding this complete with names of cc:s attached >> to show you some of the enemies out there. I've gotten several personal >> e-mails. I am asking Declan, my friend, NOT to forward my posts to his >> various lists., > > So why do you forward this to the cypherpunks list? What > gives you the moral right? So that they will know their enemy. --Tim May From measl at mfn.org Fri Sep 14 07:19:12 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:19:12 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Sick Wacko in the Whitehouse In-Reply-To: <3BA207BD.7FDFDABB@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Ken Brown wrote: > Yeah, but your government is behaving like the British government used > to. Has been for a century really. Just another colonial power like all > the rest. > > Ken So, are you going to tell us something we _didn't_ know already? ;-D -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From jamesd at echeque.com Fri Sep 14 09:19:18 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:19:18 -0700 Subject: A Brevital Moment (was..Ignore Aimee Farr) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3BA1CB96.22835.38D886@localhost> -- On 13 Sep 2001, at 20:26, Aimee Farr wrote: > My post was not "bait." The reason we have anything left of > the amendments so frequently talked about in here is due to > the independence of the judiciary. While you can question > aforesaid independence, threatening the judiciary is beyond > the pale. I have not seen any threats on this list to judges except your own. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG mBbFybVtN//9TWHKI38Ci+qZnDro4s/kORfW+Jd1 4JnAeMYe4DBpTW9S8+cI5MhVV/UPBhgjv1qcQgLYS From jamesd at echeque.com Fri Sep 14 09:19:18 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:19:18 -0700 Subject: MARTIAL LAW Cypherpunks and terrorism In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010913005649.020596f0@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <3BA1CB96.3350.38D890@localhost> -- Dr. Joe Baptista > They are the symbols of a struggle that has been going on > for many years. A struggle against oppression and planned > genocide in which the United States has been a significant > contributor and supporter. i.e. Israel's oppression of the > palestinians, i.e. south africa, i.e. east timor etc. etc. > etc. > > Arabs are by default very nobel, trustworthy and honourable > people. But they are not cows. They will not bow their > heads as their civilization is brutalized and raped. They > will fight back with the vengence that is the holy jihad You might have a point if some of the terrorists actually had been brutalized -- if for example some of them were palestinians that had been roughed up by Israeli soldiers. They were not. This was not an attack on America for any specific things the American government has done -- it is an an attack on Americans for being being free and rich, while arabs have inflicted slavery and poverty on themselves, an attack on Amercans for being American. When two hundred US soldiers were blown up for meddling in Lebanon, the US government go out of Lebanon. The US public is not going to stop being American, and will kill as many arabs as is needed to ensure that they are allowed to be the people that they are. If modest violence suffices, modest violence will be used. If modest violence does not suffice, the process will continue till no arabs remain. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG 3t6naPZegDrRaTbM+ox6sVekeuRo+n/CtNeRqs+ 43Az2L+3CHnhDub/sVrxA+d8qvrcA6IgidF4t0EzU From tonga at pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to Fri Sep 14 00:21:38 2001 From: tonga at pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to (Tonga Remailer Admin) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:21:38 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Cypherpunks Tonga Remailer Now Online In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010914085704.T55421-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 1246 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Fri Sep 14 09:24:57 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:24:57 -0700 Subject: The Winds of War In-Reply-To: <200109141538.LAA10712@blount.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <200109141626.f8EGQVf25259@slack.lne.com> On Friday, September 14, 2001, at 11:17 AM, John Young wrote: > The NY Times has a brief story today about the arrest of > five guys in Jersey busted for celebrating the takedown > of WTC. They are identified as Israelis, and "exportable." > Congresscriminals are already calling for restrictions on public speech in other countries. A bandwagon of support for banning whispering (crypto) is building. "Choose your escrowed diary provider!" say the apologists for fascism. Here's what I expect will happen in the coming weeks: * a massive military attack on Afghanistan and possibly "rebel bases" in many parts of the Mideast * a series of hastily-passed new laws restricting communications (with remailers targeted specifically because they by their nature are not in "compliance" with CALEA) * on the day the war begins, next week or in the weeks thereafter, a series of raids on those operating remailers, those who have identified these repressive measures, and those who have spoken against the American Jihad or who have publically opined that the WTC bombing resembles the Reichstag Fire * these raids will be done in the usual pre-dawn, ninja-clad storm trooper way: flash-bangs, shoot anything that appears to move, put the perps _down_! * many of those arrested in the raids may not actually be prosecuted, as even pliable courts will find little or no constitutional basis for prosecution, though some fraction will die while "resisting arrest" (a few highly-publicized "barricade situations," a la Waco, should help with the terror campaign) * those not arrested, shut down, kicked off their ISPs, or killed will be driven underground, or, in most cases, will "promise not to do it again" and will meekly become the Carnivore Administrators for their systems * Robb London and Jeff Gordon and their ilk will be promoted to new positions within the National Unity Government and will be asked to detail their successful prosecutions of notorious cypherpunk terrrorists * Congress will hold endless hearings reminiscent of the House Un-American Activities Committee hearings. Activists and crypto advocates will receive subpoenas. The media, even the newly-fascist tech media, will villify them. * Someday, perhaps in 20 years, wiser heads will realize that shredding the Constitution in support of some Zionists who pushed Arabs (called "sand niggers") off of their lands was not a good idea. War is coming. Against us, against liberty, against the Constitution. If I stop posting in the coming weeks, you'll know why. --Tim May From jamesd at echeque.com Fri Sep 14 09:30:25 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:30:25 -0700 Subject: "Ending States That Support Terrorism" In-Reply-To: <3BA172EE.B2AC55A0@fbi.gov> Message-ID: <3BA1CE31.10424.4305F3@localhost> -- On 13 Sep 2001, at 20:01, Alfred Qeada wrote: > They're [Pakistan] also looking to curry favor, and > distance India. They're nuclear; you have to give them > respect They were not getting any respect. Their nuclear status could be reversed. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG BcmpZbQUUOQ25CdSnIDasTkntnaxhEkg8ENDk4TN 4k74fBhAl8Tp1QaPeZ01OWMx5ivtUSdDH5eGgMIwz From jamesd at echeque.com Fri Sep 14 09:30:25 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:30:25 -0700 Subject: "Attack on America" - a Personal Response (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20010914002701.A2429@positron.mit.edu> References: ; from ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com on Thu, Sep 13, 2001 at 10:04:00PM -0500 Message-ID: <3BA1CE31.7450.4305FE@localhost> -- On 14 Sep 2001, at 0:27, Riad S. Wahby wrote: > The labels "act of terrorism" and "act of war" are mutually > exclusive. The former is by definition perpetrated by a > non-governmental grou The claims by Dubya et al to the > contrary are incoherent politibabble. Nonsense. The words "terror" and "terrorism" came to have their modern meaning when they employed to describe the policies of the government of France, and later the policies of the Paris Commune. "Terrorism" is something that governments do. Later the word came to be extended by as hyperbole to the large scale violent acts of private organizations and individuals. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG 1hyZaCFIbUJENZrS13LtF0UzviFJzURoXXNhj4fj 4q6r72GE0VAfAUP2u43osF7qZJBOb+oa2cf5Fh+BA From tcmay at got.net Fri Sep 14 09:36:45 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:36:45 -0700 Subject: How to win the new war In-Reply-To: <3BA227E9.F6B0498A@mediaone.net> Message-ID: <200109141638.f8EGcMf25449@slack.lne.com> On Friday, September 14, 2001, at 08:53 AM, Howie Goodell wrote: > The U.S. and its citizens have just suffered the Pearl > Harbor of post-national conflicts. We are not "post-national." The "end of history" forecast by Fukuyama has not happened. > > America is frequently accused of being a global policeman; > now is the time to do it well. I can't speak for _you_, but *I* am not supporting "global copdom." Don't volunteer my money, please. Join the Foreign Legion if you want to fight in Sudan. > This jihad also needs single-mindedness. We are after > terrorism, not ethnicity; we will cooperate with all > governments and groups who can help us, and spare none who > oppose us in this. The stakes are too high to play > favorites. > Shred the Constitution! Arrest those who speak out against this American Jihad! > into account, but that world changed September 11. Security > must be a major design goal of many features of our > society: airplanes and airports, subways, stadiums, water > supplies, product packaging, personal identification. The > vulnerabilities of existing systems need painstaking > analysis. Some upgrades will be expensive, in many ways. > Creative engineering and thorough debate of the options are > essential to keep the costs bearable and our brave new > terrorist-resistant world livable. Fatuous nonsense. Those who choose to live or work near "soft targets" should deal with the consequences, not those of us who understood the nature of soft targets many years ago and took steps to distance ourselves. (Paying to "harden" football stadiums is a lot like paying to help people rebuild houses on beaches.) > > One example: the IDs for airplane crews, and eventually > everyone who travels or goes near an airliner, could be > "smart cards" containing their owners' biometric identifiers > -- like fingerprints, voice, picture, and retinal scan -- > cryptographically signed by the agency that collected them. You are not a friend of ours. This is such a leap into the Surveillance State Void that I am speechless that any member of our list, even Choate or Farr, could advocate it. > Maybe after this horror we should take the cause that > undoubtedly drove these suicide bombers and make it > disappear: we should lose our patience with that little > piss-ant real estate disagreement in the Middle East. Give > the Israelis and Palestinians a month to agree on a map, or > we'll do it for them. Then we add a 10-mile-wide corridor > in the middle, let the Army Corps of Engineers give it a > year of loving care, and announce we will blow away anything > that moves in it for the next few decades. Note the glassy > pellets strewn along the middle: their radioactivity is > intense but short-lived. 30 years from now you might > survive a crossing. Jerusalem belongs to the U.N. now. All > rise! You are dangerous to the cause of liberty. It is not *my* business as a free citizen of these united states to tell the Arabs and Zionists where there border must be and then to enforce it. Reread what George Washington said 200 years ago about foreign entanglements. Reread the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights. It's scary that so many people like you are out there, screaming for intervention and crackdowns on liberty. --Tim May From tcmay at got.net Fri Sep 14 09:49:29 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:49:29 -0700 Subject: "Ending States That Support Terrorism" In-Reply-To: <3BA1CE31.10424.4305F3@localhost> Message-ID: <200109141651.f8EGp1f25611@slack.lne.com> On Friday, September 14, 2001, at 09:30 AM, jamesd at echeque.com wrote: > -- > On 13 Sep 2001, at 20:01, Alfred Qeada wrote: >> They're [Pakistan] also looking to curry favor, and >> distance India. They're nuclear; you have to give them >> respect > > They were not getting any respect. Their nuclear status > could be reversed. India has pledged that their airbases may be used by the American Jihad forces. When the war starts, I would not be at all surprised if India uses the chaos and confusion to launch a nuclear strike against their mortal enemy Pakistan. --Tim May From tcmay at got.net Fri Sep 14 09:58:42 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:58:42 -0700 Subject: "Attack on America" - a Personal Response (fwd) In-Reply-To: <3BA1CE31.7450.4305FE@localhost> Message-ID: <200109141700.f8EH0Af25669@slack.lne.com> On Friday, September 14, 2001, at 09:30 AM, jamesd at echeque.com wrote: > -- > On 14 Sep 2001, at 0:27, Riad S. Wahby wrote: >> The labels "act of terrorism" and "act of war" are mutually >> exclusive. The former is by definition perpetrated by a >> non-governmental grou The claims by Dubya et al to the >> contrary are incoherent politibabble. > > Nonsense. The words "terror" and "terrorism" came to have > their modern meaning when they employed to describe the > policies of the government of France, and later the policies > of the Paris Commune. > > "Terrorism" is something that governments do. Later the word > came to be extended by as hyperbole to the large scale violent > acts of private organizations and individuals. > What is called terrorism is just warfare carried on in one of its many forms: -- the terror bombing of Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, all designed to so terrify the population that they would sue for peace -- the practice for millennia of "torching a village," usually with residents locked inside. Or of piling skulls, or of placing heads on pikes, or of "taking ears" -- the mining of the harbor of Managua by U.S.G. forces, designed to terrify the local population into overthrowing the government they had mostly-democratically elected (much more democratic than, say, the government of Egypt or Pakistan, etc., none of whose harbors the U.S.G. mined) And so on. Warfare carried on by other means. --Tim May From citizenQ at ziplip.com Fri Sep 14 10:02:35 2001 From: citizenQ at ziplip.com (citizenQ) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 10:02:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: British cyberpolice ask providers to retain all data after terrorist attacks in the United States Message-ID: LONDON (AP) -- British authorities have asked all phone companies and Internet service providers to preserve communications data stored Tuesday in case they contain important clues to the identity of the terrorists who attacked Washington and New York. The National High-Tech Crime Unit, set up earlier this year to fight crime related to information technology, said data stored Tuesday may hold vital evidence about those responsible for the devastating attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon. ``By working swiftly to contact the communications service providers in the U.K., I hope that we will be able to offer valuable assistance to U.S. authorities in investigating the appalling events of recent days,'' said Detective Chief Superintendent Len Hynds, head of the London-based unit. The unprecedented request was made under Britain's Data Protection Act, which normally prohibits companies from keeping such data any longer than is needed for billing purposes. A spokeswoman for the crime unit said the request was merely precautionary, to ensure that important data recorded on the day of the attacks, such as text messages, e-mails and voice messages, were not destroyed. ``We are not looking for anything in particular,'' said the spokeswoman, speaking on condition of anonymity. ``Communications are routinely destroyed after 48 hours. This safeguarding of communications data is to ensure that any potential data is saved should it be required for evidential purposes.'' Saved information could be accessed only by law enforcement agencies, if specific legal authority were granted, the spokeswoman said. The move falls short of steps taken in the United States by the FBI, which is serving search warrants to major Internet service providers to obtain information about an e-mail address believed to be connected to Tuesday's terrorist attacks. Hynds said the cooperation of the telecommunications and Internet industry in Britain was voluntary. ``The decision for industry to assist us is entirely at their discretion and we will not therefore be asking for confirmation of support.'' -------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.siliconvalley.com/docs/news/tech/029760.htm posted under fair use law as educational material. ) 2001 KnightRidder.com From tcmay at got.net Fri Sep 14 10:06:44 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 10:06:44 -0700 Subject: The Escrowed Diary of Anne Frank In-Reply-To: <3BA25114.13193.12B89040@localhost> Message-ID: <200109141708.f8EH8Mf25785@slack.lne.com> On Friday, September 14, 2001, at 09:48 AM, chefren wrote: > What I described, is approved by almost all members of > parliament of the pretty democratic country called "The > Netherlands". Unregulated use of strong encryption is not > forbidden yet, but we will see. If you just put people on > an Enemies List and forget to argue you won't come far in a > democratic country. > The time for argument is past. And "democracy" is the pair of wolves outvoting the sheep on what's for dinner. Or Hans and Marta outvoting Anne on what she may write in her diary. Your "pick your approved provider" is probably acceptable to the Dutch. They accepted past repressions very well, of course. --Tim May From declan at well.com Fri Sep 14 07:33:06 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 10:33:06 -0400 Subject: "Ending States That Support Terrorism" In-Reply-To: <200109140359.f8E3xZf21109@slack.lne.com>; from tcmay@got.net on Thu, Sep 13, 2001 at 08:58:05PM -0700 References: <200109140359.f8E3xZf21109@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: <20010914103306.A5775@cluebot.com> Yeah, you thought (most) tech reporters in general were friends of liberty and privacy? Heh. I did TechTV yesterday morning around noon ET. The segment before mine had the host quoting Louis Freeh like our former FBI director was the latest prophet; The segment, of course, was on restricting strong crypto. -Declan On Thu, Sep 13, 2001 at 08:58:05PM -0700, Tim May wrote: > This shows how rapidly the freight train has gathered steam. Even the > _tech_ reporters, with a few obvious exceptions, are leading the calls > for suppressing the Bill of Rights. > > Be sure to get the name of the host for the files. When this war is > over, I expect hundreds of thousands will need to be sent to the wall. > > --Tim May From freematt at coil.com Fri Sep 14 07:40:56 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 10:40:56 -0400 Subject: Minaret of Freedom Institute- libertarian Muslim's Statement Message-ID: "The Minaret of Freedom Institute condemns the apparent terrorist attacks that have taken place this morning Tuesday, Sept. 11, 2001 and expresses our sympathy to the victims and their families. We call on American Muslims to volunteer to give blood to assist at this time of crisis and need" This Muslim libertarian site is an excellent resource for those wanting to know about pro-liberty Muslim beliefs and activities. Among their declared goals: "Counter distortions and misconceptions about Islamic beliefs and practice; demonstrate the Islamic origins of modern values like the rule of law and sciences like market economics; expose both American and Islamic-world Muslims to free market thought; advance the status of Muslim peoples maligned by a hostile environment in the West and oppressed by repressive political regimes in the East." Minaret of Freedom Institute / 4323 Rosedale Avenue / Bethesda, MD 20814 contact us: Minaret of Freedom Institute / mfi at minaret.org ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************** From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Fri Sep 14 03:42:06 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 10:42:06 +0000 Subject: Shoulder to shoulder Message-ID: <200109141042.f8EAg7182583@mailserver1.hushmail.com> If we allow the acts of those involved in this week's acts against the U.S. to diminish our Liberties than they have already won and any retaliation will anti-climatic. I can assure you that that there are many in the U.S. who love their Liberty more than life and are prepared put a bullet in anyone who acts to interfere with our "right" to communicate privately, keep and bear arms or be safe in our homes and papers from unreasonable searches. Any elected representative who affirms legislation to curtail our rights due to the "current emergency," any officer of the law who act to enforce these new laws and any CEO of a private enterprise (e.g., an ISP who shuts off service to anyone in order to deny them their private communication rights) have earned killing. They are little different than the Nazi collaborators in WW II. It is only by offering these cowards, with their misguided patriotism or who value their self-interest more than Liberty, equally weighty consequences to consider that all our Liberties will be protected. From tcmay at got.net Fri Sep 14 10:45:20 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 10:45:20 -0700 Subject: Carnivore Early Deployment In-Reply-To: <3BA23D96.3750D493@ameritech.net> Message-ID: <200109141747.f8EHl6f26264@slack.lne.com> On Friday, September 14, 2001, at 10:26 AM, Harmon Seaver wrote: > In light of the apparent widespread deployment of > carnivore at many, if not most, US ISP's, without, I > presume, any sort of warrants, does anyone know of any > proposals for lawsuits against same by EFF, ACLU, or anyone > else? This would certainly be an abrogation of civil rights > for all of us whose email is being intercepted without even > the remotest probable cause. I would think it ripe for a > class action suit. > I'm assuming that ameritech knuckled under, although > I've not seen any announcements of it, but last night when > trying to pop mail from their server, I was getting no > connection for quite awhile, then suddenly I got a message > saying the "account is locked by another session or for > maintenance" -- something I've never, ever seen before, > although ameritech certainly has had a lot of problems with > it's mail servers. Then again this morning, for over an > hour, the incoming stuff just stopped. We sent several test > messages from various servers, none of them arrived until > much, much later. > Not that I'm paranoid, I seriously doubt they'd be > monitoring my mail in particular, but I would also assume > that any installation of something like carnivore would > cause problems with the mail at an already rather fragile > entity like ameritech. You think it unlikely they're monitoring your e-mail? How quaint. The nature of Carnivore has been to "gulp down" with a very wide mouth. I expect that those who set up the watch lists simply take all the lists they can--of Arabs, of people like us, of political activists, etc.--and merge them into a master list. Probably something like 50,000 or so names. It costs little to tag these messages. But I expect the real issue is not Carnivore, which is a fairly clumsy way of putting a box at an ISP. Ever so much easier to just sniff the networks and grab it all, then filter. Remember the hoopla about whether the NSA could sniff domestic networks? Remember that we have known for many years that the UK/USA agreement lets GCHQ sniff our networks, we sniff theirs, and an office at Fort Meade then consolidates. Also recall some informed speculation that AT&T LongLines were deliberately routed across Indian reservations specifically to skirt this issue (according to the source, reservations qualify legally as beyond the restrictions on domestic survelliance a la Minaret). And it's all pretty silly to think the Big Ears are *not* listening and sniffing. Congressvarmints have already blabbed that the NSA has been intercepting _all_ cellphone traffic and it will only be a matter of computer crunching to retrieve the cellphone calls from the passengers on the doomed flights (and from the suspected terrorists). Legal niceties about snooping and sniffing are being swept aside in this American Jihad. --Tim May From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Fri Sep 14 03:54:08 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 10:54:08 +0000 Subject: MARTIAL LAW Cypherpunks and terrorism Message-ID: <200109141054.f8EAs8M85087@mailserver1.hushmail.com> At 10:57 AM 9/14/2001 -0400, !Dr. Joe Baptista wrote: >I have many american friends who are very angry these days. Many very depressed. Many have lost a great deal. And this is fueling a potential war which will make vietnam look like a broadway comedy. many american boys are going to die over this one and i find that an even greater tragedy. "War is just a racket ... something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small group knows what its about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses." --- Major General Smedley Butler, 1933 From lizard at mrlizard.com Fri Sep 14 10:55:43 2001 From: lizard at mrlizard.com (lizard) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 10:55:43 -0700 Subject: Ann Coulter Final Solution? References: Message-ID: <3BA2449F.98A1903A@mrlizard.com> Well, she's right on one thing -- civilians will die. This is war, and that's what happens in war. That's why, generally, we prefer to AVOID war -- unlike some people, we don't like killing civilians.[1] But we'll do it if we have to. Anyone who thinks we can get out of this without massive civilian casualties is an idiot. (No, 'turning the other cheek' is not an option. If you've once paid 'em the Danegeld, you never get rid of the Dane.) I don't agree with "Convert 'em to Christianity" bit. Let them remain Muslim. Just turn them into good capitalists locked in a trading alliance with the US, just like Germany and Japan. Global capitalism means global peace. No one wants to bomb their customers. [1]The terrorists could have crashed into their targets at night, causing massive destruction but dramatically less loss of life. They chose to cause maximum civilian death, for the purpose of causing maximum civilian death. Civilian casualties are an inevitable consequence of war -- only madmen make it the AIM of war. From baptista at pccf.net Fri Sep 14 07:57:20 2001 From: baptista at pccf.net (!Dr. Joe Baptista) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 10:57:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MARTIAL LAW Cypherpunks and terrorism In-Reply-To: <3BA1CB96.3350.38D890@localhost> Message-ID: James - I find your statements incredible. America is being attacked for being rich and free? I don't think so. That is however a good argument as to why people immigrate there - but that's the extent of it. If these people are arabs - and i still don't have any proof of that - then we can assume they blew up the WTC in protest of americas support of terror and antidemocratic institutions - i.e. the palestinian israel problems. The jihad is an action against the fundamental laws of Allah (God) which are more or less the same laws outlined in the holy bible - old testament. The jihad is an action against those who offend the word and laws of God. Being free and being rich is not an offense against God. However claiming to be the advicates of democracy and freedom while simultaneously supporting offensive regeims is an offense against God and common sense for that matter. Last night I had the opportunity of watching the CBC a canadian program. It was a public participation forum - and i'll tell you anytime the american advocates claimed they were bombed because it was an attack against democracy and freedom all the canadian participants laughed. It became ridiculous watching this. I have many american friends who are very angry these days. Many very depressed. Many have lost a great deal. And this is fueling a potential war which will make vietnam look like a broadway comedy. many american boys are going to die over this one and i find that an even greater tragedy. Don't forget James - if in fact Bin Landen is involved in this then the facts remain that the US Government sponsored and assisted him during the Russian occupation of afganistan. So we can argue here that your government not only has created arab hatred against itself by sponsoring organizations which oppress the arabs - but the US has also been instramental in setting up the very infrastructure Ben Laden has used to train these "terrorists". My greatest fear is that the american people are going to go to war. A war which will inevitably be imported onto US soil. How many Timothy Mcveis are there ticking in america. And how many arab extremists are in the U.S. But in the worst case senariou maybe this has to happen. Maybe america need to feel the impact of terror that Israeli citizens has felt in order for it to realize that Democracy and Freedoms are fundamental to all citizens on this planet - and not a perk based on nationality, creed nor color. And I find that possibility very regretable. regards joe On Fri, 14 Sep 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote: > This was not an attack on America for any specific things the > American government has done -- it is an an attack on > Americans for being being free and rich, while arabs have > inflicted slavery and poverty on themselves, an attack on > Amercans for being American. > > When two hundred US soldiers were blown up for meddling in > Lebanon, the US government go out of Lebanon. The US public > is not going to stop being American, and will kill as many > arabs as is needed to ensure that they are allowed to be the > people that they are. If modest violence suffices, modest > violence will be used. If modest violence does not suffice, > the process will continue till no arabs remain. > > --digsig > James A. Donald > 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG > 3t6naPZegDrRaTbM+ox6sVekeuRo+n/CtNeRqs+ > 43Az2L+3CHnhDub/sVrxA+d8qvrcA6IgidF4t0EzU > -- Joe Baptista The dot.GOD Registry, Limited The Executive Plaza, Suite 908 150 West 51st Street Tel: 1 (208) 330-4173 Manhattan Island NYC 10019 USA Fax: 1 (208) 293-9773 From gbroiles at well.com Fri Sep 14 10:57:56 2001 From: gbroiles at well.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 10:57:56 -0700 Subject: How to win the new war In-Reply-To: <3BA241F1.E61E2DDD@mediaone.net> References: <200109141638.f8EGcTX14614@chmls12.mediaone.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010914104828.04ca28d0@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 01:44 PM 9/14/2001 -0400, Howie Goodell wrote: >These smart cards don't need to be connectable to your >identity; just your body and a responsible party's >signature. American Airlines and Lloyds put $1B behind my >biometrics being one of an authorised class of pilots or >plane cleaners. Who I am isn't necessary. No, but what's going to sound more comforting to worshippers at the temple of the power trip: 1. Credentials without privacy violation, which chart a careful course between the risks of overidentification and the risks of overauthorization/overpermissiveness, a la Chaum - or 2. A big centralized database/control center, where serious-looking men with guns and uniforms will sit in swivel chairs and look at computer screens 24x7, using zoom lenses and database queries to inspect every movement or deviation from what's considered normal? This isn't just a technical question, it's a marketing question, and people are learning/have learned to feel safer when someone's monitoring them, and others, too. People believe that their experience as a subject of control and the exercise of power makes them safe - and that the feeling of not being controlled, or the idea that others are not being actively controlled (or at least monitored, to ensure that their internalized controls are functioning) is scary to them. Things aren't going to get better until people learn to abandon the false security of the control fetish, and learn to operate in an environment where uncertainty and risk are significant factors. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at well.com "We have found and closed the thing you watch us with." -- New Delhi street kids From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Fri Sep 14 08:06:02 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 11:06:02 -0400 Subject: "Attack on America" - a Personal Response (fwd) Message-ID: > Riad S. Wahby[SMTP:rsw at mit.edu] wrote: > > > As to the point, if nations can't participate in terrorism then exactly > > what is it that Afghanistan is being theatened with for harboring the > > raghead? Exactly why did their leaders go into hiding again? Exactly why > is > > Pakistan running around like a sub-woofie? Exactly why did the US use > > F-111's to drop bombs on a particular 'rogue state' for engaging in > > 'terrorism' (ie Libya)? What exactly do you thing Amin was doing, > besides > > killing croc's that is... > > None of the above is relevant. According to 22 USC Sec. 2656f(d) [1]: > > the term "terrorism" means premeditated, politically > motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant > targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents > > The House Subcommittee on National Security, Veterans' Affairs, and > International Relations has stated that the above sets the standard > for a terrorist act [2]. > > By this definition, it's pretty clear that the events of 9/11 were > terrorism. > Riad: Two points: 1. Goverments misdefine things whenever it fits their purposes. I don't see that other have to automatically bow before their definition. 2. *Even if*, for the sake of argument, we decide to use the text you quote as a definition; I fail to see how it rules out the possibility of nations engaging in terrorism - because of the phrase 'clandestine agents'. Clandestine agents include secret services. To give just two example: When Libyan agents carried out the bombing over Lockerbie, was that terrorism, or an act of war? When the CIA secretly mined the harbors of Nicaragua, was that terrorism, or an act of war? Peter Trei From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Fri Sep 14 08:06:02 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 11:06:02 -0400 Subject: "Attack on America" - a Personal Response (fwd) Message-ID: > Riad S. Wahby[SMTP:rsw at mit.edu] wrote: > > > As to the point, if nations can't participate in terrorism then exactly > > what is it that Afghanistan is being theatened with for harboring the > > raghead? Exactly why did their leaders go into hiding again? Exactly why > is > > Pakistan running around like a sub-woofie? Exactly why did the US use > > F-111's to drop bombs on a particular 'rogue state' for engaging in > > 'terrorism' (ie Libya)? What exactly do you thing Amin was doing, > besides > > killing croc's that is... > > None of the above is relevant. According to 22 USC Sec. 2656f(d) [1]: > > the term "terrorism" means premeditated, politically > motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant > targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents > > The House Subcommittee on National Security, Veterans' Affairs, and > International Relations has stated that the above sets the standard > for a terrorist act [2]. > > By this definition, it's pretty clear that the events of 9/11 were > terrorism. > Riad: Two points: 1. Goverments misdefine things whenever it fits their purposes. I don't see that other have to automatically bow before their definition. 2. *Even if*, for the sake of argument, we decide to use the text you quote as a definition; I fail to see how it rules out the possibility of nations engaging in terrorism - because of the phrase 'clandestine agents'. Clandestine agents include secret services. To give just two example: When Libyan agents carried out the bombing over Lockerbie, was that terrorism, or an act of war? When the CIA secretly mined the harbors of Nicaragua, was that terrorism, or an act of war? Peter Trei From wolf at priori.net Fri Sep 14 11:10:32 2001 From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 11:10:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Crypto-anonymity greases HUMINT intelligence flows Message-ID: Too bad that the infrastructure to successfully implement AP isn't in place. That $5mil reward for Bin Laden's head could be used by an FBI AP scheme, payable anonymously over the net to enterprising Afghanis. -MW- From wolf at priori.net Fri Sep 14 11:10:32 2001 From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 11:10:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Crypto-anonymity greases HUMINT intelligence flows Message-ID: Too bad that the infrastructure to successfully implement AP isn't in place. That $5mil reward for Bin Laden's head could be used by an FBI AP scheme, payable anonymously over the net to enterprising Afghanis. -MW- From aimee.farr at pobox.com Fri Sep 14 09:10:45 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 11:10:45 -0500 Subject: Crypto-anonymity greases HUMINT intelligence flows In-Reply-To: <200109140611.f8E6Bgf22109@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: I don't know why Tim makes me out to be such a bitch. I'm pro-crypto and pro-privacy. Anonymity and encryption can assist with intelligence collection efforts, and grease new intelligence flows. An OSINT "Intellagora," a WhiteHat BlackNet, is zero-risk/zero-contact, and might assist in counterterrorism intelligence collection -- there are arguments it's built for it (Steele). It's technical, but it is a HUMINT solution. Such a solution could be used not only for intelligence collection, but also for intervention. Another prime example is in regard to "cyberterrorism," where companies have shown great reluctance to share information with the government. They are complaining about a lack of human intelligence, and the difficulty of penetration. There are strong arguments that crypto can assist the government in combating the very threat they complain of, and surmount obstacles to intelligence collection and analysis. (And, as many here have stated, legal prohibitions are only effective on law-abiders.) Like THIS.....this was a natural response. Kudos. SAN DIEGO, September 12, 2001 - Anyone with information pertaining to Tuesday's terrorist attacks who wishes to communicate anonymously with U.S. authorities can use an Anonymous Tip Web Link now located at the Anonymizer.com home page. [...] Awards are authorized, BTW: Sec. 3071. Information for which rewards authorized (a) With respect to acts of terrorism primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States, the Attorney General may reward any individual who furnishes information - (1) leading to the arrest or conviction, in any country, of any individual or individuals for the commission of an act of terrorism against a United States person or United States property; or (2) leading to the arrest or conviction, in any country, of any individual or individuals for conspiring or attempting to commit an act of terrorism against a United States person or property; or (3) leading to the prevention, frustration, or favorable resolution of an act of terrorism against a United States person or property. (b) With respect to acts of espionage involving or directed at the United States, the Attorney General may reward any individual who furnishes information - (1) leading to the arrest or conviction, in any country, of any individual or individuals for commission of an act of espionage against the United States; (2) leading to the arrest or conviction, in any country, of any individual or individuals for conspiring or attempting to commit an act of espionage against the United States; or (3) leading to the prevention or frustration of an act of espionage against the United States. ~Aimee > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com]On > Behalf Of Tim May > Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 1:10 AM > To: cypherpunks at lne.com > Subject: Why I'm Not Writing Impassioned Essays in Defense of Crypto and > Privacy > > > When I see the calls for giving up the Fourth and First Amendments, the > calls for backdoored crypto, the claims that Cypherpunks must put on > "CypherAngels" red berets and join Curtis Sliwa and the San Francisco > Police Academy in using their skills to narc out evil persons who choose > not to escrow their diaries with the local and federal police, I am > nauseated. > [...] From jya at pipeline.com Fri Sep 14 11:13:48 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 11:13:48 -0700 Subject: Many bin Ladens Message-ID: <200109141535.LAA26049@blount.mail.mindspring.net> The Germans report that Ata and others planned the attacks while at an electrical engineering school in Germany and so far no connection to bin Laden has been found. That a small, smart, talented group could conceive and carry out the attacks may be inconceivable to those who believe in massive, overwhelming power, is apt indication of the long-livenedness of those who just don't buy the effectiveness of guerillas working in tiny cells and executing non-heirachical operations. The oft-cited Clauzewitz and Lao Tsu have misled planners now for a generation, a generation hoping to erase Viet Nam, Cuba, Ceylon, and a plethora of asymmetrical victories. "Lessons learned," is a favorite phrase now used by giant organizations to figure out why best laid plans failed. Still, the giant organizations continue to perpetuate themselves by arguing the virtues of massive retaliation and minimizing their ineffectivenss at prevention of what they rush to avenge, wildly attacking targets but never reaching disappearing attackers hiding in the underbrush near homebases. Whether the lessons learned in this case will prevent massive overwhelming attacks on foreign and domestic innocents is a lesson yet to be learned, and learned, and learned. But no matter what, the display of force will give comfort to scared shitless believers in idiotic concepts of good and evil hiding venal intentions. Would Clinton have APed bin Laden if the disappearing devil was found hiding in NY's Metropolitan Detention Center or elsewhere in the USA or Germany under a false dentity? Who's allegedly under house arrest in Afghanistan? Not Osama, who is nowhere near where the oil pipelines are to be built. See the UK Ministry of Defense's analysis of why an Afghan coup is needed to update the overthrow of Iran by MI6 and CIA in 1953: http://cryptome.org/afghan-coup.htm From jya at pipeline.com Fri Sep 14 11:17:18 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 11:17:18 -0700 Subject: Cheering WTC Exports Message-ID: <200109141538.LAA10712@blount.mail.mindspring.net> The NY Times has a brief story today about the arrest of five guys in Jersey busted for celebrating the takedown of WTC. They are identified as Israelis, and "exportable." From xyz at kalifornia.com Fri Sep 14 11:31:36 2001 From: xyz at kalifornia.com (xyz at kalifornia.com) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 11:31:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Light a Candle, Sept 14th 01 7:00 PM EST Message-ID: I know the list has been receiving a lot of 'do this, do that' recently, however I felt this was appropriate. -X Friday Night at 7:00 p.m. EST step out of your door, stop your car, or step out of your establishment and light a candle. We will show the world that Americans are strong and united together against terrorism. Please pass this to everyone on your e-mail list. We need to reach everyone across the United States quickly. The message: WE STAND UNITED - WE WILL NOT TOLERATE TERRORISM! Thank you. From sandfort at mindspring.com Fri Sep 14 11:42:23 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 11:42:23 -0700 Subject: The Enemies List In-Reply-To: <54d2aeb03ecce2a2293130f3f0658529@dizum.com> Message-ID: Nomen Nescio wrote a lot of nonsense. Rather than respond to each pointless point, let me just say this: First, don't presume to speak for me or any member of this list. This is a list of individuals and they all speak only for themselves. Second, more people have died in Ted Kennedy's car than at Tim May's hands. Please stop the cutsy, "oh, I'm so scared, that Tim will go postal," bull shit. Third, this list was founded on the principle that technology could/should/would be used to protect privacy. Period. Fourth, even that were not the case, Tim has stopped NO ONE from expressing their opinions on this list. He's only expressed his opinion of their opinions. His threats--to the extent that term even applies--speak only to those who are guilty of illegal actions against our rights. S a n d y From goodell at mediaone.net Fri Sep 14 08:53:13 2001 From: goodell at mediaone.net (Howie Goodell) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 11:53:13 -0400 Subject: How to win the new war Message-ID: <3BA227E9.F6B0498A@mediaone.net> Hi -- I just submitted the ff. article to my local newspaper. I suggest lots of you do something similar. Our best chance to keep crypto free is to present it loudly and clearly as the way for our countries to *achieve* security, not an irresponsible demand that they forgo it. BTW I wrote _Scientific American_ to ask that they re-post David Chaum's 1992 article, "Achieving Electronic Privacy" that makes this point so well. It's easily Googled if they don't, though. Howie Goodell -- Howie Goodell hgoodell at cs.uml.edu Pr SW Eng, WearLogic Sc.D. Cand HCI Res Grp CS Dept U Massachussets Lowell http://people.ne.mediaone.net/goodell/howie Dying is soooo 20th-century! http://www.cryonics.org ====================== How to Win the New War ====================== The U.S. and its citizens have just suffered the Pearl Harbor of post-national conflicts. We are in a different kind of war, and we must fight it in many different ways. Here are four of the many hats we need to wear: · Cop · M.A.D.D. · Safety Engineer · Judge Wapner Global cop America is frequently accused of being a global policeman; now is the time to do it well. Investigate and hunt down not just a few leaders, but every member of the terrorist groups that participated in these attacks. Where governments cooperate, we can try these vicious criminals individually. Where this is impossible, we may go back to our pre-Kennedy Cold War rules and assassinate them. M.A.D.D. (Mothers Against Drunk Driving) Beyond finding the specific perpetrators of this attack, lead a crusade (jihad) against terrorism worldwide. This is easy to say now, but it will need to be carried out for decades, with serious money and smart people and determined politics. This jihad also needs single-mindedness. We are after terrorism, not ethnicity; we will cooperate with all governments and groups who can help us, and spare none who oppose us in this. The stakes are too high to play favorites. Safety Engineer Despite our best efforts to eradicate terrorism, it will be a factor in all our lives from now on. A lot of engineering designs in the industrialized world didn't take terrorism into account, but that world changed September 11. Security must be a major design goal of many features of our society: airplanes and airports, subways, stadiums, water supplies, product packaging, personal identification . The vulnerabilities of existing systems need painstaking analysis. Some upgrades will be expensive, in many ways. Creative engineering and thorough debate of the options are essential to keep the costs bearable and our brave new terrorist-resistant world livable. One example: the IDs for airplane crews, and eventually everyone who travels or goes near an airliner, could be "smart cards" containing their owners' biometric identifiers -- like fingerprints, voice, picture, and retinal scan -- cryptographically signed by the agency that collected them. (That agency or foreign government should be required to back its credential with a huge insurance policy to ensure they take it seriously.) This would make it almost impossible to get an unauthorized person through security, but it could be verified in seconds, without consulting a central database of everyone's data. In fact the scanners could be designed without removable storage or communications links: after a few days they would erase their records unless they were read out after a hijacking. This last point is crucial. Most of the debate about personal identification assumes there is a fundamental trade-off between being insecure and becoming a police state; therefore democracies have to settle for some compromise that is only halfway secure and only halfway free. This is not true today. Electronic and cryptographic technology like David Chaum's "blind signature" and "personal representative" lets us design systems with both strong security and strong protection of privacy and individual freedom. (See his August, 1992 _Scientific American_ article, "Achieving Electronic Privacy".) Judge Wapner ("The People's Court") Nobody of any ethnicity sacrifices his life without a cause. In the long run, the best solutions to terrorism probably include making a few of those causes go away. Before courts and law enforcement reached some regions of our country, there were deadly feuds there, too. Now instead of the Hatfields and the McCoys shooting it out for decades, a judge looks at their case, hands down a decision, and it gets enforced. Maybe after this horror we should take the cause that undoubtedly drove these suicide bombers and make it disappear: we should lose our patience with that little piss-ant real estate disagreement in the Middle East. Give the Israelis and Palestinians a month to agree on a map, or we'll do it for them. Then we add a 10-mile-wide corridor in the middle, let the Army Corps of Engineers give it a year of loving care, and announce we will blow away anything that moves in it for the next few decades. Note the glassy pellets strewn along the middle: their radioactivity is intense but short-lived. 30 years from now you might survive a crossing. Jerusalem belongs to the U.N. now. All rise! From sandfort at mindspring.com Fri Sep 14 11:58:22 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 11:58:22 -0700 Subject: Crypto-anonymity greases HUMINT intelligence flows In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Meyer Wolfsheim wrote: > Too bad that the infrastructure to successfully implement AP isn't in > place. That $5mil reward for Bin Laden's head could be used by an FBI AP > scheme, payable anonymously over the net to enterprising Afghanis. AP is a silly, unworkable idea. However, $5,000,000 PLUS the Witness Relocation program could be a winner. S a n d y From rsw at MIT.EDU Fri Sep 14 09:08:43 2001 From: rsw at MIT.EDU (Riad S. Wahby) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 12:08:43 -0400 Subject: "Attack on America" - a Personal Response (fwd) In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@ssz.com on Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 07:16:41AM -0500 References: <20010914024638.A3113@positron.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20010914120843.C4957@positron.mit.edu> Jim Choate wrote: > Exactly, and you ASSUMED A PRIORI that I would accept your definitions > without stipulation. No. Your acceptance or rejection of my definitions is irrelevant. I'm predicting what definitions will be used by those who are important in this situation---the people acting to decide whether or not the insurance policy will be paid. > Since you're the representative of the 'government' and are making the > prooposal it is standard practice that the 'opposition' get to question > the definitions for relevency. You can question them, but in this case it's clear that the definitions that are important are those that the insurance company will use in determining whether an act of war was committed. If they don't pay out, the people who hold the policies will go to court, and once in court the legal definition will be used. > I did, you lost. Your definition of 'war' and 'terrorism' are inaccurate. Perhaps they do not agree with your definitions. I contend that my definitions are accurate inasmuch as they reflect those which will be used when the people who will eventually make this decision endeavor to do so. > The claim that there is some 'legal definition' that prevents 'nations' or > 'states' from participating in 'terrorism' is inaccurate. Even the US > (whose laws I'm ASSUMING you're are refering to) recognizes 'state > sponsored terrorism'. Yes, but it does not recognize that state-sponsored terrorism constitutes an act of war, which is the important question here. > In short the very pillars of your argument have been demonstrated to be > false. Your argument failed. The question here was "will the insurance companies pay out?" My answer was that this was clearly an act of terrorism and not an act of war. Even if it were sponsored by a state, it would be an act of terrorism, not an act of war. I'm not questioning the existence of state-sponsored terrorism. > In responce you're not ingaging in straw man and ad hominim hoping that > nobody will notice. Interesting that you're accusing me of ad hominem attacks and the use of straw men, as this is your standard m.o.---in this case, the squirrel definitions that started this ridiculous discussion and 'your beenie is wound too tight, junior." > Come back when you can play with adults. Jim, I'm going to give you a clue. You're generally regarded here as the village idiot. You are not respected, your arguments are ignored, and your posts are deleted on reception by most people. To some this would send a clear warning that something is wrong. Perhaps you need someone to tell you this outright: shut the fuck up and crank up those meds. -- Riad Wahby rsw at mit.edu MIT VI-2/A 2002 From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Fri Sep 14 04:11:52 2001 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 12:11:52 +0100 Subject: Cypherpunks and terrorism References: <8c2b38b80588587f64cdbcb85eae4dc1@dizum.com> Message-ID: <3BA1E5F8.44691769@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Nomen Nescio wrote: [...] > Can we really say the same thing about cryptography? About steganography > tools? About the anonymous mail services which bin Laden has been > reported to have used (yesterday on TV it was mentioned several times)? > > Would commerce grind to a halt if we didn't have anonymous remailers? > Of course not. The same with PGP and SSL and other crypto technologies > that are available to everyone. > > The fact is, crypto as we know it is a luxury. It didn't even exist ten > years ago. None of the crypto tools we use did. We can hardly make a > case that banning or restricting access to them will send us back into > the stone age. > > Please, let's end these spurious arguments that providers of crypto tools > are no different than the people who make the metal in the airplane wings. > There's a big difference, which anyone with an ounce of sense can see. > Banning airplanes is not an option. Banning crypto is. Of course commerce as we have it today would "grind to a halt" if "we" didn't have crypto, for any value of "we" that includes me as a private individual. When you say "we" you exclude the banks, the bureaucracies, big business. You think it is fine for them to use all these wonderful things, but not for the rest of us. You are suggesting that it is wrong for me as a private person to make use of the accumulated knowledge and work of programmers like myself; but OK for me in my capacity as an employee of a multinational corporation (which I used to be) or the Inland Revenue (which I also used to be - hey! I was the taxman! I admit it!). So if I put on a suit and get my old job back, then *you* can't use the tools that I would every day? This does not compute. And your "ten years ago" is a bit off. Thirty years ago I would have had to go to a counter at a bank to get my own money out as cash, and I would have had to have had a recommendation from a Respectable Person to have had the account in the first place. By the time I first went to university, 25 years ago, all I had to do was stick a card in the wall. As you bloody well know, the entire ATM system depends on crypto (if not that well implemented, see Ross Anderson, passim) This is basic stuff. You know all this. It's been obvious for years Most of the "money" in the world is just bookkeeping entries in databases in computers (mostly here in London & in New York of course - quite a few were in the vicinity of WTC - I assume they had backups). You bet that needs crypto. When I first worked with mainframe computers in the 1980s we used tapes for money transfer to the banks. Crypto paid my wages, literally. My ability to pay the rent next month was a little bit of text on a 9-inch tape. That was one job any sysprog would be happy to work late to get through. Now it is all online and I hope the systems are better... Of course that wasn't "crypto as we know it". Things change. Deal with it. In another ten or twenty years there will be other sorts of crypto. Or are you banning R&D as well? Anyway, as you also know if you have been paying any attention at all, the laws they pass in your country (whichever that might be) won't even stop your own neighbours from using crypto if they want to, never mind all us nasssty little foreigners. We've got the genie, you can bring the bottle, where is the cork? Ken Brown From hseaver at ameritech.net Fri Sep 14 10:26:09 2001 From: hseaver at ameritech.net (Harmon Seaver) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 12:26:09 -0500 Subject: Carnivore Early Deployment Message-ID: <3BA23D96.3750D493@ameritech.net> In light of the apparent widespread deployment of carnivore at many, if not most, US ISP's, without, I presume, any sort of warrants, does anyone know of any proposals for lawsuits against same by EFF, ACLU, or anyone else? This would certainly be an abrogation of civil rights for all of us whose email is being intercepted without even the remotest probable cause. I would think it ripe for a class action suit. I'm assuming that ameritech knuckled under, although I've not seen any announcements of it, but last night when trying to pop mail from their server, I was getting no connection for quite awhile, then suddenly I got a message saying the "account is locked by another session or for maintenance" -- something I've never, ever seen before, although ameritech certainly has had a lot of problems with it's mail servers. Then again this morning, for over an hour, the incoming stuff just stopped. We sent several test messages from various servers, none of them arrived until much, much later. Not that I'm paranoid, I seriously doubt they'd be monitoring my mail in particular, but I would also assume that any installation of something like carnivore would cause problems with the mail at an already rather fragile entity like ameritech. -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 hseaver at cybershamanix.com Home 920-233-5820 hseaver at ameritech.net http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Fri Sep 14 04:28:49 2001 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 12:28:49 +0100 Subject: Sick Wacko in the Whitehouse References: <632e7d51b117c47db44351ffac53bfad@freedom.gmsociety.org> Message-ID: <3BA1E9F1.95676781@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> > There's a distinct difference in purpose, theoretically speaking, > between "invading to control" and "invading to punish and destroy". > > Your operational requirements are significantly different, so I'm > told by several military folks I've talked to, none of whom attempted > to play down the Afghan resolve, but simply pointed out that if we > didn't care about "keeping it", we would not encounter (all of) the > same difficulties Ivan did. When we British used to run the biggest empire the world has ever seen, we used to call them "punitive expeditions". They never did anyone a bit of fucking good, except a few colonial administrators. Oh, and they never worked against Afghanistan. And still won't, for the same reason. What happens to the Afghans if the US take and burn every city, bomb every dam, every generator, mine every road? Just what has been happening to them for the last 30 years, that's what. And Taliban or worse for another generation. The only way to change Afghanistan is to let the Afghans do it. And most of the ones who could are in Iran now, the only country in the world that helped them when the so-called west was supporting what became the Taliban. Bush II isn't behaving like Hitler, but like some British colonial general circa 1825-1880 We have statues of them dotted around central London. So-and-so the conqueror of Sind. Whats-his-name the hero of the Punjab. No-one now remembers who they were, or anything about them, unless they happened to have a city named for them, or become Prime Minister of some remote colony, or die nobly surrounded by hordes of locals asking impolitely for their land back. Ken Brown From wiki786 at hotmail.com Fri Sep 14 13:35:18 2001 From: wiki786 at hotmail.com (WAQAR HUSSAIN) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 12:35:18 -0800 Subject: plz tell me abt free yourname.com Message-ID: plz tell me abtfree yourname.com S.WAQAR HUSSAINGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 280 bytes Desc: not available URL: From adam at homeport.org Fri Sep 14 09:46:52 2001 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 12:46:52 -0400 Subject: Cypherpunks and terrorism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20010914124651.A10958@weathership.homeport.org> On Thu, Sep 13, 2001 at 09:47:05PM -0700, Lucky Green wrote: | It is controlling our speech and thoughts that they are after. But they get | there without the cooperation of the gullible. "Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity." I really don't think that most of those calling for restrictions on our freedoms are after controlling our speech and thought. They're scared, and they're reacting. But I think that many of them are acting out of the finest of intentions. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." Adam -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Fri Sep 14 04:55:27 2001 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 12:55:27 +0100 Subject: London Daily Telegraph wants to ban all crypto and invade Afghanistan References: <200109140611.f8E6Bgf22109@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: <3BA1F02F.70189A65@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> In an opinion column in the London Daily Telegraph, John Keegan calls for a combined US/Russian/British invasion of Afghanistan: http://www.dailytelegraph.co.uk:80/dt?ac=006026232037638&rtmo=pUsM4USe&atmo=rrrrrrrq&pg=/01/9/14/do01.html He then goes on to say, and I quote: ========== "There are other current movements of which to take note, as yet insubstantial but certain to gather concrete form. One is the retreat of human rights lawyers from the forefront of public life. America in a war mood will have no truck with tender concern for constitutional safeguards of the liberty of its enemies. The other, which ordinary Americans will have to learn to bear, is interference with their liberty of instant electronic access to friends and services." "The World Trade Centre outrage was co-ordinated on the internet, without question. If Washington is serious in its determination to eliminate terrorism, it will have to forbid internet providers to allow the transmission of encrypted messages - now encoded by public key ciphers that are unbreakable even by the National Security Agency's computers - and close down any provider that refuses to comply." "Uncompliant providers on foreign territory should expect their buildings to be destroyed by cruise missiles. Once the internet is implicated in the killing of Americans, its high-rolling days may be reckoned to be over." ========== The "Torygraph" is the most conservative of Britain's serious newspapers, and is edited from (IIRC) the 30th floor of London's tallest office tower, which overlooks London City Airport, from which STOL planes take off pointing straight at the tower. I know, I've been there myself, it scared me then. Their fear is excusable. Their bloodthirstiness is understandable. Their stupidity is neither. Ken Brown From hseaver at ameritech.net Fri Sep 14 11:01:39 2001 From: hseaver at ameritech.net (Harmon Seaver) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:01:39 -0500 Subject: Carnivore Early Deployment References: <200109141747.f8EHl6f26264@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: <3BA245E5.E8B2253E@ameritech.net> Tim May wrote: > You think it unlikely they're monitoring your e-mail? How quaint. > Of course, I just meant being singled out for "special treatment" any more than the rest of you. Obviously we are being monitored/sniffed/etc. And probably this will increase. At any rate, the question still stands: Is any legal action being proposed against this? I'd certainly like to be part of any class action suit, although I have little monetary resources to contribute. -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 hseaver at cybershamanix.com Home 920-233-5820 hseaver at ameritech.net http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html From wolf at priori.net Fri Sep 14 13:21:48 2001 From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:21:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Crypto-anonymity greases HUMINT intelligence flows In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > Meyer Wolfsheim wrote: > > > Too bad that the infrastructure to successfully implement AP isn't in > > place. That $5mil reward for Bin Laden's head could be used by an FBI AP > > scheme, payable anonymously over the net to enterprising Afghanis. > > AP is a silly, unworkable idea. However, $5,000,000 PLUS the Witness > Relocation program could be a winner. Would you trust the Witness Protection Program with your life? Whoever opts to collect that $5,000,000 will forever live in fear. No, any tips that directly lead to the apprehension of Bin Laden must be done under total anonymity. All the more reason for remailers to remain operational. For discussion: Assuming only the use of mixmaster remailers for communication, and assuming an honest FBI, how could one collect a cash reward for tips satisfy the FBI's reward requirements? -MW- From wolf at priori.net Fri Sep 14 13:21:48 2001 From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:21:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Crypto-anonymity greases HUMINT intelligence flows In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > Meyer Wolfsheim wrote: > > > Too bad that the infrastructure to successfully implement AP isn't in > > place. That $5mil reward for Bin Laden's head could be used by an FBI AP > > scheme, payable anonymously over the net to enterprising Afghanis. > > AP is a silly, unworkable idea. However, $5,000,000 PLUS the Witness > Relocation program could be a winner. Would you trust the Witness Protection Program with your life? Whoever opts to collect that $5,000,000 will forever live in fear. No, any tips that directly lead to the apprehension of Bin Laden must be done under total anonymity. All the more reason for remailers to remain operational. For discussion: Assuming only the use of mixmaster remailers for communication, and assuming an honest FBI, how could one collect a cash reward for tips satisfy the FBI's reward requirements? -MW- From tolan at citipages.net Fri Sep 14 05:33:50 2001 From: tolan at citipages.net (Tolan Blundell) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:33:50 +0100 Subject: Google Search: state sponsored terrorism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >The assertion was that 'states' can't engage in 'terrorism'. I doubt many terrorists would describe themselves as such. From sandfort at mindspring.com Fri Sep 14 13:38:24 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:38:24 -0700 Subject: Crypto-anonymity greases HUMINT intelligence flows In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Meyer Wolfsheim wrote: > Would you trust the Witness Protection > Program with your life? In this case, yes. When the program failed in the past it was usually due to putting formally high rollers into dull middle class new lives. They were the ones who ended up outing themselves. In contrast, giving some poor wretch and his family $5 million would put them in the lap of luxury. > Whoever opts to collect that $5,000,000 will forever live in fear. Cost/benefit, you do the math. I'd opt for it in a heartbeat. > No, any tips that directly lead to the apprehension of Bin Laden must be > done under total anonymity. All the more reason for remailers to remain > operational. Anonymity does not require remailers much less untraceable digital cash. I'm for both of those, but they are overkill for someone who turns in Bin Laden. S a n d y From aimee.farr at pobox.com Fri Sep 14 11:38:36 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:38:36 -0500 Subject: A Brevital Moment (was..Ignore Aimee Farr) In-Reply-To: <3BA1CB96.22835.38D886@localhost> Message-ID: I have never threatened a judicial official, or anybody else. I have reason to doubt my character in this regard could be placed into question. ~Aimee > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com]On > Behalf Of jamesd at echeque.com > Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 11:19 AM > To: citizenQ; Aimee Farr > Cc: cypherpunks at lne.com > Subject: Re: A Brevital Moment (was..Ignore Aimee Farr) > > > -- > On 13 Sep 2001, at 20:26, Aimee Farr wrote: > > My post was not "bait." The reason we have anything left of > > the amendments so frequently talked about in here is due to > > the independence of the judiciary. While you can question > > aforesaid independence, threatening the judiciary is beyond > > the pale. > > I have not seen any threats on this list to judges except your own. > > --digsig > James A. Donald > 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG > mBbFybVtN//9TWHKI38Ci+qZnDro4s/kORfW+Jd1 > 4JnAeMYe4DBpTW9S8+cI5MhVV/UPBhgjv1qcQgLYS From freematt at coil.com Fri Sep 14 10:43:58 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:43:58 -0400 Subject: Ann Coulter Final Solution? Message-ID: Ann Coulter's solution as suggested in her column of September 14, 2001 "This is war" Located at: >Airports scrupulously apply the same laughably ineffective airport >harassment to Suzy Chapstick as to Muslim hijackers. It is >preposterous to assume every passenger is a potential crazed >homicidal maniac. We know who the homicidal maniacs are. They are >the ones cheering and dancing right now. > > >We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert >them to Christianity. We weren't punctilious about locating and >punishing only Hitler and his top officers. We carpet-bombed German >cities; we killed civilians. That's war. And this is war. Regards, Matt- ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************** From goodell at mediaone.net Fri Sep 14 10:44:17 2001 From: goodell at mediaone.net (Howie Goodell) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:44:17 -0400 Subject: How to win the new war References: <200109141638.f8EGcTX14614@chmls12.mediaone.net> Message-ID: <3BA241F1.E61E2DDD@mediaone.net> Tim May wrote: > > On Friday, September 14, 2001, at 08:53 AM, Howie Goodell wrote: > One example: the IDs for airplane crews, and eventually > everyone who travels or goes near an airliner, could be > "smart cards" containing their owners' biometric identifiers > -- like fingerprints, voice, picture, and retinal scan -- > cryptographically signed by the agency that collected them. > > You are not a friend of ours. This is such a leap into the Surveillance State Void that I am speechless that any member of our list, even Choate or Farr, could advocate it. Allow me to re-quote the end of my paragraph, and following paragraph which was the one I really cared about: > ... In fact the scanners could be designed without removable storage or communications links: after a few days they would erase their records unless they were read out after a hijacking. > This last point is crucial. Most of the debate about personal identification assumes there is a fundamental trade-off between being insecure and becoming a police state; therefore democracies have to settle for some compromise that is only halfway secure and only halfway free. This is not true today. Electronic and cryptographic technology like David Chaum's "blind signature" and "personal representative" lets us design systems with both strong security and strong protection of privacy and individual freedom. (See his August, 1992 _Scientific American_ article, "Achieving Electronic Privacy".) My point was that we should sell crypto as a way to achieve security. That's a product people are buying this week. Cryptographic protocols can square the circle; provide both privacy and security. So let's be imaginative and sell, sell, sell! These smart cards don't need to be connectable to your identity; just your body and a responsible party's signature. American Airlines and Lloyds put $1B behind my biometrics being one of an authorised class of pilots or plane cleaners. Who I am isn't necessary. Biometric scanners can be open source as well as unconnected. The signature on the card can be blind (albeit after a mind-boggling number of Chaumian challenges.) Databases of biometrics can be separated from identity and accessed through remailers. If we can get the bandwagon rolling our way, we have a chance to steer it. If not -- well, you're better at those metaphors. Take care! Howie Goodell -- Howie Goodell hgoodell at cs.uml.edu Pr SW Eng, WearLogic Sc.D. Cand HCI Res Grp CS Dept U Massachussets Lowell http://people.ne.mediaone.net/goodell/howie Dying is soooo 20th-century! http://www.cryonics.org From mmotyka at lsil.com Fri Sep 14 14:21:12 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:21:12 -0700 Subject: The Enemies List Message-ID: <3BA274C8.360CF9BD@lsil.com> Has the fact that a disaster occurred changed much? The US was always vulnerable, now the general population knows it. I'm expecting war in the Middle East and reprisals in the States. There is not a great deal anyone can do about it. As for the fallout of Tuesday's events, well...the heart of the crypto issue hasn't changed one iota. Those idiots who are advocating bans and back doors are off in the tall grass as they always have been. They are promising safety that they cannot now or ever deliver no matter what tools they are given. Like con artists soliciting donations that will never make it to the people who need it they are trying to leverage a tragedy as a means to further their own businesses, careers and power with no regard for the outcome. Are these advocates of the erosion of civil liberties enemies and criminals? Sure, and they'll be fought the same way they've been fought before - in the courts, in the press and in front of a monitor. As for the talk of violence, I have no way, need or desire to sort the rhetorical from the real so I won't even try. Yesterday I was behind any action our government wanted to take, today, after hearing calls to increase domestic surveillance capabilities and learning that my keychain Victorinox is a felonious weapon, I'm back to my usual pessimism. I think there are far too many clueless morons in positions of power for the job of governing to be done well. I hope that I'm wrong and that there are enough truly bright and dedicated people to do a good job. Mike From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Fri Sep 14 06:35:57 2001 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:35:57 +0100 Subject: Sick Wacko in the Whitehouse References: <632e7d51b117c47db44351ffac53bfad@freedom.gmsociety.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010914032509.01be3aa0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: <3BA207BD.7FDFDABB@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Reese wrote: > Your very English sentiments noted. Get back in queue. Yeah, but your government is behaving like the British government used to. Has been for a century really. Just another colonial power like all the rest. Ken From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Fri Sep 14 07:05:11 2001 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:05:11 +0100 Subject: "Attack on America" - a Personal Response (fwd) References: <20010914002701.A2429@positron.mit.edu> Message-ID: <3BA20E97.4C365E15@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> "Riad S. Wahby" wrote: > The labels "act of terrorism" and "act of war" are mutually exclusive. > The former is by definition perpetrated by a non-governmental group; > the latter requires actions by a government. The claims by Dubya et > al to the contrary are incoherent politibabble. > > This has been discussed within the last month here on the list, IIRC. That might be current contemporary US usage, but it is not how the word started. Originally it was used (In French I suspect) for states terrorising the people they ruled, like the Russian pogroms. Later it was widened to include non-governmental groups. In WW2 bombing of residential cities was widely called "terror bombing" (even by Churchill in private). But it is a distinction without a difference. Who would you think had the most capacity to wage war, a small state such as Nauru or St Lucia, or an armed non-state like ETA or some of the Colombian gangs? Calling this attack "war" or "terrorism" is a matter of emotional colour. Ken From gbroiles at well.com Fri Sep 14 15:17:42 2001 From: gbroiles at well.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:17:42 -0700 Subject: Compiling Mixmaster 2.9 beta under FreeBSD Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010914150930.046a7110@pop3.norton.antivirus> Earlier I mentioned that I was having difficulty building the current Mixmaster on FreeBSD - I'm confident that I've identified the problem. Specifically, the OpenSSL that's integrated into FreeBSD doesn't include IDEA, by default, because of patent concerns. To remedy that, one needs to change the line in /etc/defaults/make.conf so that it reads "MAKE_IDEA=YES". Then - this is the part I missed before - it's necessary to recompile the system libraries, so that they're rebuilt with IDEA support included. It sounds simple in retrospect . . . go to /usr/src and run "make buildworld; make installworld", which may take 12 hours or so on a slow PC. There's got to be a better way to just rebuild the crypto parts, but I didn't stumble across it yet. After those steps are completed, the Mixmaster stuff builds and runs happily. Mixmaster 2.9beta23 is available at or . I suspect that the OpenBSD fix will be similar, but it may take some time to track it all down. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at well.com "We have found and closed the thing you watch us with." -- New Delhi street kids From ravage at ssz.com Fri Sep 14 13:18:14 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:18:14 -0500 (CDT) Subject: The Enemies List In-Reply-To: <54d2aeb03ecce2a2293130f3f0658529@dizum.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Nomen Nescio wrote: > You and other critics have every right to speak your mind and make your > position known. Indeed, the cypherpunks were founded on the principle > of advancing freedom of speech. It is a sad and tragic irony that one > of the founders of that group has descended into a despicable allegiance > to violence. Long-term subscribers have seen it happen gradually over the > years. Descended hell, he's always been that way. -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Fri Sep 14 13:23:24 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:23:24 -0500 (CDT) Subject: The Enemies List In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > Nomen Nescio wrote a lot of nonsense. Rather than respond to each pointless > point, let me just say this: > > First, don't presume to speak for me or any member of this list. This is a > list of individuals and they all speak only for themselves. Follow your own advice... > Third, this list was founded on the principle that technology > could/should/would be used to protect privacy. Period. No, that was 'that' list. That list died and a new distributed list was born. The current operators may or may not be doing this for the same reasons that the original list was put up. In any case you don't operate a node so you have no expectation to understand why THOSE people do it. -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From goodell at mediaone.net Fri Sep 14 12:32:27 2001 From: goodell at mediaone.net (Howie Goodell) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:32:27 -0400 Subject: How to win the new war References: <200109141638.f8EGcTX14614@chmls12.mediaone.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20010914104828.04ca28d0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <3BA25B4B.2467C7D5@mediaone.net> Greg Broiles wrote: > > At 01:44 PM 9/14/2001 -0400, Howie Goodell wrote: > > >These smart cards don't need to be connectable to your > >identity; just your body and a responsible party's > >signature. American Airlines and Lloyds put $1B behind my > >biometrics being one of an authorised class of pilots or > >plane cleaners. Who I am isn't necessary. > > No, but what's going to sound more comforting to worshippers at the temple > of the power trip: > > 1. Credentials without privacy violation, which chart a careful course > between the risks of overidentification and the risks of > overauthorization/overpermissiveness, a la Chaum - > > or > > 2. A big centralized database/control center, where serious-looking > men with guns and uniforms will sit in swivel chairs and look at computer > screens 24x7, using zoom lenses and database queries to inspect every > movement or deviation from what's considered normal? The point we need to make is that you can be far *safer* with Chaumian anonymous credentials etc. How long would it take to persuade people to have their biometrics checked and compared with a central server and recorded forever -- even this week? The key point is to rely on a digital signature. The rest is incremental. Howie Goodell -- Howie Goodell hgoodell at cs.uml.edu Pr SW Eng, WearLogic Sc.D. Cand HCI Res Grp CS Dept U Massachussets Lowell http://people.ne.mediaone.net/goodell/howie Dying is soooo 20th-century! http://www.cryonics.org From freematt at coil.com Fri Sep 14 12:43:49 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:43:49 -0400 Subject: Flight 93 Questions Message-ID: From aleph at alumni.caltech.edu Fri Sep 14 15:43:57 2001 From: aleph at alumni.caltech.edu (Colin A. Reed) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:43:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ann Coulter Final Solution? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well here is another moron. From Jerry Fallwell's statements, and Pat Robertsons concurrence, I think it is pretty safe to say that we are in just as much danger from christain fundamentalist terrorists as from muslim fundamentalist terrorists. I fail to see what a conversion would accomplish. Let alone a forced conversion. Blech. Just when I'm feeling proud to be an American, watching the wonderful response of the people in New York, these scum come along and make me ashamed to be an American. On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Matthew Gaylor wrote: > Ann Coulter's solution as suggested in her column of September 14, > 2001 "This is war" Located at: > > > >Airports scrupulously apply the same laughably ineffective airport > >harassment to Suzy Chapstick as to Muslim hijackers. It is > >preposterous to assume every passenger is a potential crazed > >homicidal maniac. We know who the homicidal maniacs are. They are > >the ones cheering and dancing right now. > > > > > >We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert > >them to Christianity. We weren't punctilious about locating and > >punishing only Hitler and his top officers. We carpet-bombed German > >cities; we killed civilians. That's war. And this is war. > > > Regards, Matt- > > > ************************************************************************** > Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues > Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA > on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) > Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ > ************************************************************************** From ravage at ssz.com Fri Sep 14 13:45:37 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:45:37 -0500 Subject: The Register - SSL toolkit flaw poses risk Message-ID: <3BA26C71.C2CC00E1@ssz.com> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/55/21685.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Fri Sep 14 13:46:48 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:46:48 -0500 Subject: The Register - This is how we know Echelon exists Message-ID: <3BA26CB8.112A2168@ssz.com> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/55/21680.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From citizenQ at ziplip.com Fri Sep 14 15:54:02 2001 From: citizenQ at ziplip.com (citizenQ) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:54:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <3KRJRMH4GXGWD20QJKAENN3MKSMHH2UAHYOWYH10@ziplip.com> Reading the discussion I see that the amendment calls for inclusion of 'terrorist activies' into Title III which allows wiretapping under Court order, not anything about warrantless wiretapping. I did not perform all the text substitutions of the amemdment itself though. However in the language of the amendment all references that I read are to activities under court order. Please indicate the wider circumstances, particularly the warrantless circumstances, that this amendment allows cybertapping under, for those of us without your time or acumen in editing the existing Title III language. You also did not quote this: "One of the most effective investigative tools at the disposal of law enforcement agencies is the ability to go to a Federal judge and get wiretapping authority. It is critical in matters such as this. That is the ability to intercept oral or electronic conversations involving the subject of a criminal investigation. The legislative scheme that provides this authority, and at the same time protects the individual liberties of American citizens to be secure against unwarranted government surveillance, is referred to in the criminal code as Title III. Among the many protections inherent in Title III is that only the investigations of certain criminal offenses, those judged to be sufficiently serious to warrant the use of this potent crime-fighting weapon, are eligible for wiretapping orders. The law lays out a number of crimes deemed by Congress to be serious enough to warrant allowing the FBI to intercept electronic and oral communications. Title III currently allows interception of communications in connection with the investigation of such crimes as mail fraud, wire fraud, and the interstate transportation of stolen property. Inexplicably, however, the Federal terrorism statutes are not currently included in Title III. I have been complaining about this for a long time and this is the time to correct it." >>Text of the Hatch-Feinstein "Combating Terrorism Act of 2001": >http://www.politechbot.com/docs/cta.091401.html > >Discussion of the amendment: >http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2001/s091301.html > >-Declan >> >******** > >http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,46852,00.html > > Senate OKs FBI Net Spying > By Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com) > 12:55 p.m. Sep. 14, 2001 PDT > > WASHINGTON -- FBI agents soon may be able to spy on Internet users > legally without a court order. > > On Thursday evening, two days after the worst terrorist attack in U.S. >> history, the Senate approved the "Combating Terrorism Act of 2001," > which enhances police wiretap powers and permits monitoring in more > situations. > > The measure, proposed by Orrin Hatch (R-Utah) and Dianne Feinstein > (D-California), says any U.S. attorney or state attorney general can > order the installation of the FBI's Carnivore surveillance system. > Previously, there were stiffer restrictions on Carnivore and other > Internet surveillance techniques. > > Its bipartisan sponsors argue that such laws are necessary to thwart > terrorism. "It is essential that we give our law enforcement > authorities every possible tool to search out and bring to justice > those individuals who have brought such indiscriminate death into our > backyard," Hatch said during the debate on the Senate floor. > [...] From support at simply-spiritual.com Fri Sep 14 16:00:52 2001 From: support at simply-spiritual.com (support at simply-spiritual.com) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:00:52 -0700 Subject: Simply-Spiritual & Wolfsongenchantment Newsletter Message-ID: <200109142300.QAA31011@ecotone.toad.com> Welcome to the Simply-Spiritual & Wolfsongenchantment Newsletter! http://www.Simply-Spiritual.com and http://www.wolfsongenchantment.com and have collaborated to become the new owners of the psychicbookstore.com newsletter! We are two websites metaphysically oriented with access to much of the same information that you received from Psychic Bookstore but will be adding much more over the next few weeks and months to come! Please visit both of our sites to familiarize yourself with our present services offered and stay with us throughout the Fall of 2001 and see what exciting and diverse plans we have in store for you! You can join our individual mailing lists by clicking on our website links at the bottom of this newsletter. Both websites have some really comprehensive information shared in newsletters pertaining to spiritual evolution. Hopefully you will visit both of our websites in the very near future and get your email addresses incorporated with both websites enabling you to be in free drawings each month for psychic readings etc. In this issue of the newsletter, we're addressing past lives. My angels have been telling me, that I need to enlighten, and share with you on past life lessons. We are All spirit beings within, and to better understand. spirit has "eternal life". The experiences we go through from life-time to life-time are lessons for us. We have all pretty much have had flash backs,or mini dreams of certain incidents related to another century, or experience an emotion that relates to some other time. We also, at times continue where we left off from some of those memories in the past, as it may be like an unfinished diary. Like a haunting from the past, we bring with us our fears, knowledge, talent, personality, etc. The recalls can help us to better understand who we are and enhance or repair some of our life choices in this life. Cellular memory is a physical memory that the body has stored from birth, Cellular memory does not create, it relies on the experiences within, in this life time from birth through this life. Spirit memory are collective memories from all lives we have lived and has a powerful influence over us. Spirit memory creates from life-time to life-time to be continuous. It is in our awareness, as to how we evaluate who we are. Since the beginning of time the age old question, "who are we" and "where do we come from" Our physical bodies are carbon based, however, another intervention has to take place, in order to make us exist. The spirit enters the "body" at birth. We then become independent of those around us through all the knowledge we have accumulated from the past lives. Depending on those experiences gives us the level we are in, in this life. whether we have gone through 10-100 pasts, is the degree of knowledge based on those recurrences. We are constantly being made aware every day of our "spirit-within" (that sorta "gut" feeling) telling us and often reminding us, right from wrong, decisions, knowledge, love and etc. Unfortunately, we become over influenced by our cellular memory through birth in this life time and this feeling and or feelings, add confusion. As we are evolving and allowing our true spirits emerge, we become more intuitive, and find inner contentment to that knowledge. Right now the emergence is very strong and the search is on for our "soul-mates". Spirit within can not feel whole till we are rejoined with our other half. Some very lucky ones, have had the joyful reunion and they feel total and complete. The time is now to learn and allow your "spirit-self" to manifest in your daily lives. Tossing out all preconceived memory on the cellular level created from birth in this life time, and allow your true beauty (spirit) emerge. The vibrations are changing around us on this earth, as it continues to do so, we are also vibrating to a higher level. Just as we have read about our history and ancestors, evolution was going on then as now. We are still making history. This evolution is forever expanding. To enlighten, Angels are "light bodies" of all knowledge (old-souls) who have evolved where they no longer need a physical body to make their presence known to us. We all have that within us to become an angel. Embrace, this era we are now entering into. It is a life changing experience for all. Your angels are watching, so "STOP, LOOK, AND LISTEN" We are looking forward to meeting you either through chat or e-mail. Within the next few weeks, we will also have the capability of doing live phone readings so please visit our websites and get your email address on our mailing lists. We are continually giving away free readings in our monthly drawings, so share with your friends and internet buddies our website so they may have a chance of winning a free 30 minute reading also. Anyone who would like their spiritual story considered for the monthly issue of The Spiritual Innernet, please submit to support at simply-spiritual.com. If you submit a story that is amazing, spiritual, and well written, your odds of winning are very good!!! 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PLEASE understand that any effort to disrupt, close or block this REMOVE account can only result in difficulties for others wanting to be removed from our mailing list as it will be impossible to take anyone off the list if the remove instruction can not be received. ********************************************************* From declan at well.com Fri Sep 14 13:03:22 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:03:22 -0400 Subject: Cnet blaming Declan In-Reply-To: ; from shamrock@cypherpunks.to on Thu, Sep 13, 2001 at 10:30:25PM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20010914160322.A11581@cluebot.com> Yikes, I don't watch the show. I assume you're serious? -Declan On Thu, Sep 13, 2001 at 10:30:25PM -0700, Lucky Green wrote: > This Cnet show keeps getting better. The host is now quoting Declan's > article, stating that fortunately Declan's "affectionatos" are not in > charge. And apparently an "An Metet" has emailed him a death thread... The > host, David Lawrence, read the death thread on the air. > > > This is on the air right now. Call (800) 39-ONLINE. Call if you disagree > that strong crypto should be banned in the US. > > --Lucky > > [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/ms-tnef which had a name of winmail.dat] From aleph at alumni.caltech.edu Fri Sep 14 16:04:45 2001 From: aleph at alumni.caltech.edu (Colin A. Reed) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:04:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ann Coulter Final Solution? In-Reply-To: <3BA28F04.3363BC02@mrlizard.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, lizard wrote: > "Colin A. Reed" wrote: > > > > Well here is another moron. From Jerry Fallwell's statements, and Pat > > Robertsons concurrence, I think it is pretty safe to say that we are in > > just as much danger from christain fundamentalist terrorists as from > > muslim fundamentalist terrorists. I fail to see what a conversion would > > accomplish. Let alone a forced conversion. Blech. Just when I'm > > feeling proud to be an American, watching the wonderful response of the > > people in New York, these scum come along and make me ashamed to be an > > American. > > > Just as the terrorists are not representative of all Middle-Easterners, > so Fallwell and company are not representative of all Americans. > And yet many Americans do follow them and respect them. That is what disgusts me. From declan at well.com Fri Sep 14 13:10:12 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:10:12 -0400 Subject: Senate votes to permit warrantless Net-wiretaps, Carnivore use Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010914160944.0209fd30@mail.well.com> Text of the Hatch-Feinstein "Combating Terrorism Act of 2001": http://www.politechbot.com/docs/cta.091401.html Discussion of the amendment: http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2001/s091301.html -Declan ******** http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,46852,00.html Senate OKs FBI Net Spying By Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com) 12:55 p.m. Sep. 14, 2001 PDT WASHINGTON -- FBI agents soon may be able to spy on Internet users legally without a court order. On Thursday evening, two days after the worst terrorist attack in U.S. history, the Senate approved the "Combating Terrorism Act of 2001," which enhances police wiretap powers and permits monitoring in more situations. The measure, proposed by Orrin Hatch (R-Utah) and Dianne Feinstein (D-California), says any U.S. attorney or state attorney general can order the installation of the FBI's Carnivore surveillance system. Previously, there were stiffer restrictions on Carnivore and other Internet surveillance techniques. Its bipartisan sponsors argue that such laws are necessary to thwart terrorism. "It is essential that we give our law enforcement authorities every possible tool to search out and bring to justice those individuals who have brought such indiscriminate death into our backyard," Hatch said during the debate on the Senate floor. [...] From citizenQ at ziplip.com Fri Sep 14 16:11:53 2001 From: citizenQ at ziplip.com (citizenQ) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:11:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: resend: re: Senate votes to permit warrantless Net-wiretaps Message-ID: Reading the discussion I see that the amendment calls for inclusion of 'terrorist activies' into Title III which allows wiretapping under Court order, not anything about warrantless wiretapping. I did not perform all the text substitutions of the amemdment itself though. However in the language of the amendment all references that I read are to activities under court order. Please indicate the wider circumstances, particularly the warrantless circumstances, that this amendment allows cybertapping under, for those of us without your time or acumen in editing the existing Title III language. You also did not quote this: "One of the most effective investigative tools at the disposal of law enforcement agencies is the ability to go to a Federal judge and get wiretapping authority. It is critical in matters such as this. That is the ability to intercept oral or electronic conversations involving the subject of a criminal investigation. The legislative scheme that provides this authority, and at the same time protects the individual liberties of American citizens to be secure against unwarranted government surveillance, is referred to in the criminal code as Title III. Among the many protections inherent in Title III is that only the investigations of certain criminal offenses, those judged to be sufficiently serious to warrant the use of this potent crime-fighting weapon, are eligible for wiretapping orders. The law lays out a number of crimes deemed by Congress to be serious enough to warrant allowing the FBI to intercept electronic and oral communications. Title III currently allows interception of communications in connection with the investigation of such crimes as mail fraud, wire fraud, and the interstate transportation of stolen property. Inexplicably, however, the Federal terrorism statutes are not currently included in Title III. I have been complaining about this for a long time and this is the time to correct it." >>Text of the Hatch-Feinstein "Combating Terrorism Act of 2001": >http://www.politechbot.com/docs/cta.091401.html > >Discussion of the amendment: >http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2001/s091301.html > >-Declan >> >******** > >http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,46852,00.html > > Senate OKs FBI Net Spying > By Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com) > 12:55 p.m. Sep. 14, 2001 PDT > > WASHINGTON -- FBI agents soon may be able to spy on Internet users > legally without a court order. > > On Thursday evening, two days after the worst terrorist attack in U.S. >> history, the Senate approved the "Combating Terrorism Act of 2001," > which enhances police wiretap powers and permits monitoring in more > situations. > > The measure, proposed by Orrin Hatch (R-Utah) and Dianne Feinstein > (D-California), says any U.S. attorney or state attorney general can > order the installation of the FBI's Carnivore surveillance system. > Previously, there were stiffer restrictions on Carnivore and other > Internet surveillance techniques. > > Its bipartisan sponsors argue that such laws are necessary to thwart > terrorism. "It is essential that we give our law enforcement > authorities every possible tool to search out and bring to justice > those individuals who have brought such indiscriminate death into our > backyard," Hatch said during the debate on the Senate floor. > [...] From lizard at mrlizard.com Fri Sep 14 16:13:08 2001 From: lizard at mrlizard.com (lizard) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:13:08 -0700 Subject: Ann Coulter Final Solution? References: Message-ID: <3BA28F04.3363BC02@mrlizard.com> "Colin A. Reed" wrote: > > Well here is another moron. From Jerry Fallwell's statements, and Pat > Robertsons concurrence, I think it is pretty safe to say that we are in > just as much danger from christain fundamentalist terrorists as from > muslim fundamentalist terrorists. I fail to see what a conversion would > accomplish. Let alone a forced conversion. Blech. Just when I'm > feeling proud to be an American, watching the wonderful response of the > people in New York, these scum come along and make me ashamed to be an > American. > Just as the terrorists are not representative of all Middle-Easterners, so Fallwell and company are not representative of all Americans. From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Fri Sep 14 13:25:16 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:25:16 -0400 Subject: A Brevital Moment (was..Ignore Aimee Farr) Message-ID: > Aimee Farr[SMTP:aimee.farr at pobox.com] wrote: > > I have never threatened a judicial official, or anybody else. I have > reason > to doubt my character in this regard could be placed into question. > > ~Aimee > I haven't paid enough attention to AF to be able to form an opinion as to whether she's threatened anyone. However, her second sentence is such a strange Clintonesque legalistic circumlocution that it raises questions as to just what she may be be tiptoeing around (possibly nothing). If her character could not be 'placed into question' ... 'in this regard', to just what exactly is she responding? Why can't she just make a clear, unambiguous statement, as in the first sentence? There seem to be at least 3 levels of ambiguity in the second sentence. A better followup would have been: "If you maintain otherwise, show the quote where I am threatening someone. Put up or shut up." Peter Trei From tcmay at got.net Fri Sep 14 16:50:03 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:50:03 -0700 Subject: Material support to terrorists "concealing or disguising?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200109142351.f8ENpcf28993@slack.lne.com> On Friday, September 14, 2001, at 04:16 PM, Aimee Farr wrote: > [Any previous discussion of this? Summary/Conclusions?] > > Sec. 2339A. (FOOTNOTE 1) Providing material support to terrorists > > (a) Offense. - Whoever, within the United States, provides material > support > or resources or conceals or disguises the nature, location, source, or > ownership of material support or resources, knowing or intending that > they > are to be used in preparation for, or in carrying out, a violation of http://cypherpunks.venona.com/date/1994/09/msg00577.html From ciamac at alum.mit.edu Fri Sep 14 13:59:03 2001 From: ciamac at alum.mit.edu (Ciamac Moallemi) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:59:03 -0400 Subject: suicide terrorism Message-ID: I'm not sure about his prescriptive suggestions, but the following article provides a good historical and psychological summary of suicide terrorism. The Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka provide an interesting example--suicide bombers not driven by religious fanaticism but rather from the observation that suicide attacks are effective. Rational Fanatics (This article was originally published in the September/October 2000 issue of Foreign Policy. ) What makes suicide bombers tick? While most of the world sees them as lone zealots, they are, in fact, pawns of large terrorist networks that wage calculated psychological warfare. Contrary to popular belief, suicide bombers can be stopped-but only if governments pay more attention to their methods and motivations. By Ehud Sprinzak October 23, 1983, was one of the most horrific days in the history of modern terrorism. Two massive explosions destroyed the barracks of the U.S. and French contingents of the multinational peacekeeping force in Beirut, Lebanon, killing 241 American servicemen and 58 French paratroopers. Both explosions were carried out by Muslim extremists who drove to the heart of the target area and detonated bombs with no intention of escaping. Subsequent suicide attacks against Israeli and U.S. targets in Lebanon and Kuwait made it clear that a new type of killing had entered the repertoire of modern terrorism: a suicide operation in which the success of the attack depends on the death of the perpetrator. This tactic stunned security experts. Two centuries of experience suggested that terrorists, though ready to risk their lives, wished to live after the terrorist act in order to benefit from its accomplishments. But this new terrorism defied that belief. It seemed qualitatively different, appearing almost supernatural, extremely lethal, and impossible to stop. Within six months, French and U.S. Presidents Fran�ois Mitterrand and Ronald Reagan pulled their troops out of Lebanon-a tacit admission that the new terrorism rendered all known counterterrorist measures useless. Government officials erected concrete barriers around the White House and sealed the Pentagon's underground bus tunnels. Nobody was reassured. As Time magazine skeptically observed in 1983: "No security expert thinks such defensive measures will stop a determined Islamic terrorist who expects to join Allah by killing some Americans." Whereas the press lost no time in labeling these bombers irrational zealots, terrorism specialists offered a more nuanced appraisal, arguing that suicide terrorism has inherent tactical advantages over "conventional" terrorism: It is a simple and low-cost operation (requiring no escape routes or complicated rescue operations); it guarantees mass casualties and extensive damage (since the suicide bomber can choose the exact time, location, and circumstances of the attack); there is no fear that interrogated terrorists will surrender important information (because their deaths are certain); and it has an immense impact on the public and the media (due to the overwhelming sense of helplessness). Dr. Ramadan Shalah, secretary- general of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad, summarized the chilling logic of the new terror tactic: "Our enemy possesses the most sophisticated weapons in the world and its army is trained to a very high standard. . . . We have nothing with which to repel killing and thuggery against us except the weapon of martyrdom. It is easy and costs us only our lives. . . human bombs cannot be defeated, not even by nuclear bombs." The prevalence of suicide terrorism during the last two decades testifies to its gruesome effectiveness [see table on opposite page]. It has formed a vital part of several terror campaigns, including Hezbollah's successful operation against the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in the mid-1980s, the 1994-96 Hamas bus bombings aimed at stopping the Israeli-Palestinian peace process, and the 1995-99 Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) struggle against Turkey. The formation of special suicide units within the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE) army in Sri Lanka has added an atrocious dimension to the civil war on that devastated island. In addition to killing hundreds of civilians, soldiers, and high-ranking officers since 1987, LTTE suicide terrorists have assassinated two heads of state: Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi of India in 1991 and President Ranasinghe Premadasa of Sri Lanka in 1993. Sri Lanka's current president, Chandrika Kumaratunga, recently lost sight in one eye following an assassination attempt that killed at least 24 people. The simultaneous 1998 bombings of the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, which took the lives of nearly 300 civilians, were a brutal reprise of the 1983 tragedies in Lebanon. Almost 20 years after its stunning modern debut, suicide terrorism continues to carry the image of the "ultimate" terror weapon. But is this tactic as unstoppable as it seems? The experiences of the last two decades have yielded important insights into the true nature of suicide bombers-insights that demystify their motivations and strategies, expose their vulnerabilities, and suggest ways to defeat what a senior State Department official once called a "frightening" problem to which there are "no answers." Average, Everyday Martyrs A long view of history reveals that suicide terrorism existed many years before "truck bombs" became part of the global vernacular. As early as the 11th century, the Assassins, Muslim fighters living in northern Persia, adopted suicide terrorism as a strategy to advance the cause of Islam. In the 18th century the Muslim communities of the Malabar Coast in India, Atjeh in Sumatra, and Mindanao and Sulu in the southern Philippines resorted to suicide attacks when faced with European colonial repression. These perpetrators never perceived their deaths as suicide. Rather, they saw them as acts of martyrdom in the name of the community and for the glory of God. Moreover, suicide terrorism, both ancient and modern, is not merely the product of religious fervor, Islamic or otherwise. Martha Crenshaw, a leading terrorism scholar at Wesleyan University, argues that the mind-set of a suicide bomber is no different from those of Tibetan self-immolators, Irish political prisoners ready to die in a hunger strike, or dedicated terrorists worldwide who wish to live after an operation but know their chances of survival are negligible. Seen in this light, suicide terrorism loses its demonic uniqueness. It is merely one type of martyrdom venerated by certain cultures or religious traditions but rejected by others who favor different modes of supreme sacrifice. Acts of martyrdom vary not only by culture, but also by specific circumstances. Tel Aviv University psychologist Ariel Merari has conducted the most comprehensive study of individuals who commit acts of suicide terrorism. After profiling more than 50 Muslim suicide bombers serving in Hezbollah, Amal, and secular pro-Syrian organizations in Lebanon, as well as Hamas and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad in Israel, he concluded that there is no single psychological or demographic profile of suicide terrorists. His findings suggest that intense struggles produce several types of people with the potential willingness to sacrifice themselves for a cause [see sidebar on page 70]. Furthermore, Merari maintains that no organization can create a person's basic readiness to die. The task of recruiters is not to produce but rather to identify this predisposition in candidates and reinforce it. Recruiters will often exploit religious beliefs when indoctrinating would-be bombers, using their subjects' faith in a reward in paradise to strengthen and solidify preexisting sacrificial motives. But other powerful motives reinforce tendencies toward martyrdom, including patriotism, hatred of the enemy, and a profound sense of victimization. Since suicide terrorism is an organizational phenomenon, the struggle against it cannot be conducted on an individual level. Although profiling suicide bombers may be a fascinating academic challenge, it is less relevant in the real-world struggle against them than understanding the modus operandi and mind-set of terrorist leaders who would never consider killing themselves, but opt for suicide terrorism as a result of cold reasoning. The Care and Feeding of a Suicide Bomber A suicide terrorist is almost always the last link in a long organizational chain that involves numerous actors. Once the decision to launch a suicide attack has been made, its implementation requires at least six separate operations: target selection, intelligence gathering, recruitment, physical and "spiritual" training, preparation of explosives, and transportation of the suicide bombers to the target area. Such a mission often involves dozens of terrorists and accomplices who have no intention of committing suicide, but without whom no suicide operation could take place. A careful survey of all the organizations that have resorted to suicide terrorism since 1983 suggests that the most meaningful distinction among them involves the degree to which suicide bombing is institutionalized. At the simplest level are groups that neither practice suicide terrorism on a regular basis nor approve of its use as a tactic. Local members or affiliates of such organizations, however, may initiate it on their own for a variety of reasons, such as imitating the glorious acts of others, responding to a perception of enormous humiliation and distress, avenging the murder of comrades and relatives, or being presented with a special opportunity to strike. Within such a context, it is important to take into account what might be called "pre-suicide terrorism." Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad suicide operations in Israel during the 1990s were preceded by a wave of knifings in the late 1980s. These attackers never planned an escape route and were often killed on the spot. The knifings did not involve any known organization and were mostly spontaneous. But they expressed a collective mood among young Palestinians of jihad (holy war) against Israel that helped create an atmosphere for the institutionalized suicide terrorism of the next decade. Many terrorist groups are skeptical of suicide terrorism's strategic value but resort to this tactic in exceptional circumstances. Within this category are the bombings of the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania (allegedly executed by Osama bin Laden's Qaida organization) and similar irregular attacks conducted over the years by the Egyptian Islamic Group, the Egyptian Islamic Jihad, the Kuwaiti Dawa, and the Algerian Armed Islamic Group, among others. Such suicide bombings, though carefully planned, are irregular and unsystematic. At another level are groups that formally adopt suicide terrorism as a temporary strategy. The leaders of these movements obtain (or grant) ideological or theological legitimization for its use, recruit and train volunteers, and then send them into action with a specific objective in mind. The most spectacular operations of Hezbollah between 1983 and 1985, of Hamas between 1994 and 1996, and of the PKK between 1995 and 1999 fall within this category. More recently, Chechen rebels suddenly launched a campaign of suicide bombings following nine months of inconclusive fighting against the Russian military; one of the first bombers, a cousin of noted rebel leader Arbi Barayev, had reportedly declared: "I am going willingly to my death in the name of Allah and the freedom of the Chechen people." In such cases, the institutionalization of suicide terrorism has been temporary and conditional. Leaders who opt for this type of terrorism are usually moved by an intense sense of crisis, a conviction in the effectiveness of this new tactic, endorsement by the religious or ideological establishment, and the enthusiastic support of their community. At the same time, they are fully aware of the changeable nature of these conditions and of the potential costs associated with suicide terrorism (such as devastating military retaliation). They consequently have little difficulty in suspending suicide bombing or calling it off entirely. A case in point is Hezbollah's decision to begin suicide bombings in 1983. It is known today that several leaders of the organization were extremely uneasy about the practice. Insisting that Islam does not approve of believers taking their own lives, clerics such as Sheikh Fadlallah raised legal objections and were unwilling to allow the use of this new tactic. However, suicide terrorism became so effective in driving foreigners out of Lebanon that there was no motivation to stop it. The result was theological hair splitting that characterized suicide bombers as exceptional soldiers who risked their lives in a holy war. But following the Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon in 1985 and the decreasing effectiveness of this tactic, Hezbollah's clerics ordered the end of systematic suicide bombing. The organization's fighters were instructed to protect their lives and continue the struggle against the Zionists through conventional guerrilla methods. Only rarely, and on an irregular basis, has Hezbollah allowed suicide bombing since. It is not exactly clear when the commanders of Hamas decided to turn their anti-Israel suicide attacks into a strategic struggle against the peace process. Their campaign, started haphazardly in 1992 against Israeli military and settler targets in the occupied territories, failed to produce glaring results. The 1994 Hebron Massacre, when Israeli doctor Baruch Goldstein murdered 29 praying Palestinians, changed everything. Determined to avenge the deaths of their countrymen, Hamas operators resorted to suicide bus bombings inside Israeli cities. In a matter of weeks, the new wave of terrorism had eroded Israel's collective confidence in the peace process and had played right into the hands of extremist Hamas clerics who opposed negotiations with Israel. Yet, in 1995 these attacks suddenly came to a complete halt. Several factors convinced Hamas leaders to back off: the growing Palestinian resentment against the costs of the bus bombings (expressed in massive Israeli economic sanctions), the increasing cooperation between Israeli and Palestinian security services, and the effectiveness of Israeli counterterrorism. Ironically, Israel unintentionally pushed the organization to resume the bus bombings when, in 1996, then Prime Minister Shimon Peres ordered the assassination of Yehiya Ayash (known as "the Engineer") -a Hamas operative who masterminded many of the previous suicide bombings. Humiliated and angered, Hamas temporarily resumed bus bombings in Israel. A series of three successful attacks by Hamas and one by the Palestinian Islamic Jihad changed Israel's political mood about the peace process and led to the 1996 electoral defeat of Peres and his pro-peace government. In the cases of Hezbollah and Hamas, no permanent suicide units were formed, and bombers were recruited and trained on an ad hoc, conditional basis. But, in rare instances, some organizations adopt suicide terrorism as a legitimate and permanent strategy, harkening back to the Japanese kamikaze pilots of the Second World War. Currently, the Sri Lankan Tamil Tigers are the only example of this phenomenon. The "Black Tigers" launched their first attack in July 1987, and since then suicide bombings have become an enduring feature of the LTTE's ruthless struggle. During the last 13 years, 171 attacks have killed hundreds of civilians and soldiers and wounded thousands more. The assassinations of two heads of state, political leaders, and high-ranking military officers have made it clear that no politician or public figure is immune to these attacks. The Black Tigers constitute the most significant proof that suicide terrorism is not merely a religious phenomenon and that under certain extreme political and psychological circumstances secular volunteers are fully capable of martyrdom. The Tamil suicide bombers are not the product of a religious cult, but rather a cult of personality: Velupillai Prabhakaran, the brutal and charismatic LTTE leader who initiated the practice, appears to have been greatly influenced by the spectacular successes of Hezbollah in Lebanon. Fiercely determined to fight the repressive Sinhalese government until the Tamils achieve independence, Prabhakaran created the suicide units largely by the strength of his personality and his unlimited control of the organization. The formation of the Black Tigers was greatly facilitated by an early practice of the organization's members: Since the early 1980s, all LTTE fighters-male and female alike-have been required to carry potassium cyanide capsules. A standard LTTE order makes it unequivocally clear that soldiers are to consume the capsule's contents if capture is imminent. The LTTE suicide units are essentially an extension of the organization's general culture of supreme martyrdom; the passage from ordinary combat soldier to suicide bomber is a short and tragic journey. Making Suicide Terrorists Pay The perceived strength of suicide bombers is that they are lone, irrational fanatics who cannot be deterred. The actual weakness of suicide bombers is that they are nothing more than the instruments of terrorist leaders who expect their organizations to gain tangible benefits from this shocking tactic. The key to countering suicide bombers, therefore, is to make terrorist organizations aware that this decision will incur painful costs. While no simple formula for countering suicide terrorism exists, the experiences of the last two decades suggest two complementary political and operational strategies. Organizations only implement suicide terrorism systematically if their community (and, in some cases, a foreign client state) approves of its use. Thus, political and economic sanctions against the terrorists' community, combined with effective coercive diplomacy against their foreign patrons, may help reduce or end suicide terrorism. The problem with political counterterrorism, however, is that it takes a long time to implement and the results are never certain. The Taliban in Afghanistan, for instance, continue to host Osama bin Laden (who was indicted by the United States in November 1998 for the bombings of the two U.S. embassies in East Africa) despite international sanctions, a unanimously adopted United Nations Security Council Resolution demanding that he stand trial, and a threat from the United States that the Taliban will be held responsible for any terrorist acts undertaken while Bin Laden is under their protection. The leaders of organizations that resort to suicide terrorism are evidently ready to take great risks. Consequently, the political battle against suicide bombers must always be enhanced by an aggressive operational campaign. Governments do not have to invent entirely new tactics when waging a war against suicide terrorists. Instead, they must adapt and intensify existing counterterrorism strategies to exploit the vulnerabilities of suicide bombers. The Achilles' heel of suicide terrorists is that they are part of a large, operational infrastructure. It may not be possible to profile and apprehend would-be suicide bombers, but once it has been established that an organization has resolved to use suicide terrorism, security services can strike against the commanders and field officers who recruit and train the assailants and then plan the attacks. This counterterrorism effort calls for the formation of effective networks of informers, the constant monitoring of potential collaborators, and close cooperation among international intelligence services. Counterterrorist operatives must apply consistent pressure on the terrorist infrastructure through harassment and attacks. They must also seek ways to cut off the terrorists' sources of funding by depriving organizations of their financial resources (such as international bank accounts or "front" businesses). Regardless of the presence or absence of hard evidence for planned operations, it is essential to put potential terrorists on the run. The physical protection of potential target areas is another essential tactic. The idea of erecting concrete barriers against a martyr driving a truck loaded with tons of explosives might strike some as ludicrously inadequate. But such physical protection serves two essential objectives: It reduces the effect of the suicide bombing if and when the terrorist hits the target area, and it serves as a deterrent against potential suicide strikes. For the terrorist field officers, who may never know when they will be caught or killed, each suicide squad is precious. When faced with highly protected areas, they are unlikely to send squads into action. Roadblocks, guards at special checkpoints, inspection teams in public places, and the use of dogs and artificial sniffing devices may drive suicide terrorism down significantly. Such security measures also reassure the public. Governments must never forget that terrorism constitutes a form of psychological warfare, and that suicide terrorism is the ultimate expression of this struggle. Terrorism must always be fought psychologically-a battle that often takes place in the minds of ordinary people. Even if governments do not have an immediate operational solution to suicide terrorism, they must convince their citizens that they are not sitting ducks and that the authorities are doing everything they can to protect them. Ordinary people should, in fact, be informed that psychological warfare is being waged against them. Free people who are told that they are being subjected to psychological manipulation are likely to develop strong terrorism antibodies. In fighting suicide bombers, it is important not to succumb to the idea that they are ready to do anything and lose everything. This is the same sort of simplistic reasoning that has fueled the widespread hysteria over terrorists acquiring weapons of mass destruction (WMD). The perception that terrorists are undeterrable fanatics who are willing to kill millions indiscriminately just to sow fear and chaos belies the reality that they are cold, rational killers who employ violence to achieve specific political objectives. Whereas the threat of WMD terrorism is little more than overheated rhetoric, suicide bombing remains a devastating form of terrorism whose complete demise is unlikely in the 21st century. The ongoing political instability in the Middle East, Russia, and South Asia-including Iran, Afghanistan, Chechnya, and possibly India and Pakistan-suggests that these regions will continue to be high-risk areas, with irregular suicide bombings occasionally extending to other parts of the globe. But the present understanding of the high costs of suicide terrorism and the growing cooperation among intelligence services worldwide gives credence to the hope that in the future only desperate organizations of losers will try to use this tactic on a systematic basis. Ehud Sprinzak is dean of the Lauder School of Government, Policy, and Diplomacy at the Interdisciplinary Center in Herzliya, Israel. ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************** From ciamac at alum.mit.edu Fri Sep 14 13:59:03 2001 From: ciamac at alum.mit.edu (Ciamac Moallemi) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:59:03 -0400 Subject: suicide terrorism Message-ID: I'm not sure about his prescriptive suggestions, but the following article provides a good historical and psychological summary of suicide terrorism. The Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka provide an interesting example--suicide bombers not driven by religious fanaticism but rather from the observation that suicide attacks are effective. Rational Fanatics (This article was originally published in the September/October 2000 issue of Foreign Policy. ) What makes suicide bombers tick? While most of the world sees them as lone zealots, they are, in fact, pawns of large terrorist networks that wage calculated psychological warfare. Contrary to popular belief, suicide bombers can be stopped-but only if governments pay more attention to their methods and motivations. By Ehud Sprinzak October 23, 1983, was one of the most horrific days in the history of modern terrorism. Two massive explosions destroyed the barracks of the U.S. and French contingents of the multinational peacekeeping force in Beirut, Lebanon, killing 241 American servicemen and 58 French paratroopers. Both explosions were carried out by Muslim extremists who drove to the heart of the target area and detonated bombs with no intention of escaping. Subsequent suicide attacks against Israeli and U.S. targets in Lebanon and Kuwait made it clear that a new type of killing had entered the repertoire of modern terrorism: a suicide operation in which the success of the attack depends on the death of the perpetrator. This tactic stunned security experts. Two centuries of experience suggested that terrorists, though ready to risk their lives, wished to live after the terrorist act in order to benefit from its accomplishments. But this new terrorism defied that belief. It seemed qualitatively different, appearing almost supernatural, extremely lethal, and impossible to stop. Within six months, French and U.S. Presidents Fran�ois Mitterrand and Ronald Reagan pulled their troops out of Lebanon-a tacit admission that the new terrorism rendered all known counterterrorist measures useless. Government officials erected concrete barriers around the White House and sealed the Pentagon's underground bus tunnels. Nobody was reassured. As Time magazine skeptically observed in 1983: "No security expert thinks such defensive measures will stop a determined Islamic terrorist who expects to join Allah by killing some Americans." Whereas the press lost no time in labeling these bombers irrational zealots, terrorism specialists offered a more nuanced appraisal, arguing that suicide terrorism has inherent tactical advantages over "conventional" terrorism: It is a simple and low-cost operation (requiring no escape routes or complicated rescue operations); it guarantees mass casualties and extensive damage (since the suicide bomber can choose the exact time, location, and circumstances of the attack); there is no fear that interrogated terrorists will surrender important information (because their deaths are certain); and it has an immense impact on the public and the media (due to the overwhelming sense of helplessness). Dr. Ramadan Shalah, secretary- general of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad, summarized the chilling logic of the new terror tactic: "Our enemy possesses the most sophisticated weapons in the world and its army is trained to a very high standard. . . . We have nothing with which to repel killing and thuggery against us except the weapon of martyrdom. It is easy and costs us only our lives. . . human bombs cannot be defeated, not even by nuclear bombs." The prevalence of suicide terrorism during the last two decades testifies to its gruesome effectiveness [see table on opposite page]. It has formed a vital part of several terror campaigns, including Hezbollah's successful operation against the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in the mid-1980s, the 1994-96 Hamas bus bombings aimed at stopping the Israeli-Palestinian peace process, and the 1995-99 Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) struggle against Turkey. The formation of special suicide units within the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE) army in Sri Lanka has added an atrocious dimension to the civil war on that devastated island. In addition to killing hundreds of civilians, soldiers, and high-ranking officers since 1987, LTTE suicide terrorists have assassinated two heads of state: Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi of India in 1991 and President Ranasinghe Premadasa of Sri Lanka in 1993. Sri Lanka's current president, Chandrika Kumaratunga, recently lost sight in one eye following an assassination attempt that killed at least 24 people. The simultaneous 1998 bombings of the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, which took the lives of nearly 300 civilians, were a brutal reprise of the 1983 tragedies in Lebanon. Almost 20 years after its stunning modern debut, suicide terrorism continues to carry the image of the "ultimate" terror weapon. But is this tactic as unstoppable as it seems? The experiences of the last two decades have yielded important insights into the true nature of suicide bombers-insights that demystify their motivations and strategies, expose their vulnerabilities, and suggest ways to defeat what a senior State Department official once called a "frightening" problem to which there are "no answers." Average, Everyday Martyrs A long view of history reveals that suicide terrorism existed many years before "truck bombs" became part of the global vernacular. As early as the 11th century, the Assassins, Muslim fighters living in northern Persia, adopted suicide terrorism as a strategy to advance the cause of Islam. In the 18th century the Muslim communities of the Malabar Coast in India, Atjeh in Sumatra, and Mindanao and Sulu in the southern Philippines resorted to suicide attacks when faced with European colonial repression. These perpetrators never perceived their deaths as suicide. Rather, they saw them as acts of martyrdom in the name of the community and for the glory of God. Moreover, suicide terrorism, both ancient and modern, is not merely the product of religious fervor, Islamic or otherwise. Martha Crenshaw, a leading terrorism scholar at Wesleyan University, argues that the mind-set of a suicide bomber is no different from those of Tibetan self-immolators, Irish political prisoners ready to die in a hunger strike, or dedicated terrorists worldwide who wish to live after an operation but know their chances of survival are negligible. Seen in this light, suicide terrorism loses its demonic uniqueness. It is merely one type of martyrdom venerated by certain cultures or religious traditions but rejected by others who favor different modes of supreme sacrifice. Acts of martyrdom vary not only by culture, but also by specific circumstances. Tel Aviv University psychologist Ariel Merari has conducted the most comprehensive study of individuals who commit acts of suicide terrorism. After profiling more than 50 Muslim suicide bombers serving in Hezbollah, Amal, and secular pro-Syrian organizations in Lebanon, as well as Hamas and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad in Israel, he concluded that there is no single psychological or demographic profile of suicide terrorists. His findings suggest that intense struggles produce several types of people with the potential willingness to sacrifice themselves for a cause [see sidebar on page 70]. Furthermore, Merari maintains that no organization can create a person's basic readiness to die. The task of recruiters is not to produce but rather to identify this predisposition in candidates and reinforce it. Recruiters will often exploit religious beliefs when indoctrinating would-be bombers, using their subjects' faith in a reward in paradise to strengthen and solidify preexisting sacrificial motives. But other powerful motives reinforce tendencies toward martyrdom, including patriotism, hatred of the enemy, and a profound sense of victimization. Since suicide terrorism is an organizational phenomenon, the struggle against it cannot be conducted on an individual level. Although profiling suicide bombers may be a fascinating academic challenge, it is less relevant in the real-world struggle against them than understanding the modus operandi and mind-set of terrorist leaders who would never consider killing themselves, but opt for suicide terrorism as a result of cold reasoning. The Care and Feeding of a Suicide Bomber A suicide terrorist is almost always the last link in a long organizational chain that involves numerous actors. Once the decision to launch a suicide attack has been made, its implementation requires at least six separate operations: target selection, intelligence gathering, recruitment, physical and "spiritual" training, preparation of explosives, and transportation of the suicide bombers to the target area. Such a mission often involves dozens of terrorists and accomplices who have no intention of committing suicide, but without whom no suicide operation could take place. A careful survey of all the organizations that have resorted to suicide terrorism since 1983 suggests that the most meaningful distinction among them involves the degree to which suicide bombing is institutionalized. At the simplest level are groups that neither practice suicide terrorism on a regular basis nor approve of its use as a tactic. Local members or affiliates of such organizations, however, may initiate it on their own for a variety of reasons, such as imitating the glorious acts of others, responding to a perception of enormous humiliation and distress, avenging the murder of comrades and relatives, or being presented with a special opportunity to strike. Within such a context, it is important to take into account what might be called "pre-suicide terrorism." Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad suicide operations in Israel during the 1990s were preceded by a wave of knifings in the late 1980s. These attackers never planned an escape route and were often killed on the spot. The knifings did not involve any known organization and were mostly spontaneous. But they expressed a collective mood among young Palestinians of jihad (holy war) against Israel that helped create an atmosphere for the institutionalized suicide terrorism of the next decade. Many terrorist groups are skeptical of suicide terrorism's strategic value but resort to this tactic in exceptional circumstances. Within this category are the bombings of the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania (allegedly executed by Osama bin Laden's Qaida organization) and similar irregular attacks conducted over the years by the Egyptian Islamic Group, the Egyptian Islamic Jihad, the Kuwaiti Dawa, and the Algerian Armed Islamic Group, among others. Such suicide bombings, though carefully planned, are irregular and unsystematic. At another level are groups that formally adopt suicide terrorism as a temporary strategy. The leaders of these movements obtain (or grant) ideological or theological legitimization for its use, recruit and train volunteers, and then send them into action with a specific objective in mind. The most spectacular operations of Hezbollah between 1983 and 1985, of Hamas between 1994 and 1996, and of the PKK between 1995 and 1999 fall within this category. More recently, Chechen rebels suddenly launched a campaign of suicide bombings following nine months of inconclusive fighting against the Russian military; one of the first bombers, a cousin of noted rebel leader Arbi Barayev, had reportedly declared: "I am going willingly to my death in the name of Allah and the freedom of the Chechen people." In such cases, the institutionalization of suicide terrorism has been temporary and conditional. Leaders who opt for this type of terrorism are usually moved by an intense sense of crisis, a conviction in the effectiveness of this new tactic, endorsement by the religious or ideological establishment, and the enthusiastic support of their community. At the same time, they are fully aware of the changeable nature of these conditions and of the potential costs associated with suicide terrorism (such as devastating military retaliation). They consequently have little difficulty in suspending suicide bombing or calling it off entirely. A case in point is Hezbollah's decision to begin suicide bombings in 1983. It is known today that several leaders of the organization were extremely uneasy about the practice. Insisting that Islam does not approve of believers taking their own lives, clerics such as Sheikh Fadlallah raised legal objections and were unwilling to allow the use of this new tactic. However, suicide terrorism became so effective in driving foreigners out of Lebanon that there was no motivation to stop it. The result was theological hair splitting that characterized suicide bombers as exceptional soldiers who risked their lives in a holy war. But following the Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon in 1985 and the decreasing effectiveness of this tactic, Hezbollah's clerics ordered the end of systematic suicide bombing. The organization's fighters were instructed to protect their lives and continue the struggle against the Zionists through conventional guerrilla methods. Only rarely, and on an irregular basis, has Hezbollah allowed suicide bombing since. It is not exactly clear when the commanders of Hamas decided to turn their anti-Israel suicide attacks into a strategic struggle against the peace process. Their campaign, started haphazardly in 1992 against Israeli military and settler targets in the occupied territories, failed to produce glaring results. The 1994 Hebron Massacre, when Israeli doctor Baruch Goldstein murdered 29 praying Palestinians, changed everything. Determined to avenge the deaths of their countrymen, Hamas operators resorted to suicide bus bombings inside Israeli cities. In a matter of weeks, the new wave of terrorism had eroded Israel's collective confidence in the peace process and had played right into the hands of extremist Hamas clerics who opposed negotiations with Israel. Yet, in 1995 these attacks suddenly came to a complete halt. Several factors convinced Hamas leaders to back off: the growing Palestinian resentment against the costs of the bus bombings (expressed in massive Israeli economic sanctions), the increasing cooperation between Israeli and Palestinian security services, and the effectiveness of Israeli counterterrorism. Ironically, Israel unintentionally pushed the organization to resume the bus bombings when, in 1996, then Prime Minister Shimon Peres ordered the assassination of Yehiya Ayash (known as "the Engineer") -a Hamas operative who masterminded many of the previous suicide bombings. Humiliated and angered, Hamas temporarily resumed bus bombings in Israel. A series of three successful attacks by Hamas and one by the Palestinian Islamic Jihad changed Israel's political mood about the peace process and led to the 1996 electoral defeat of Peres and his pro-peace government. In the cases of Hezbollah and Hamas, no permanent suicide units were formed, and bombers were recruited and trained on an ad hoc, conditional basis. But, in rare instances, some organizations adopt suicide terrorism as a legitimate and permanent strategy, harkening back to the Japanese kamikaze pilots of the Second World War. Currently, the Sri Lankan Tamil Tigers are the only example of this phenomenon. The "Black Tigers" launched their first attack in July 1987, and since then suicide bombings have become an enduring feature of the LTTE's ruthless struggle. During the last 13 years, 171 attacks have killed hundreds of civilians and soldiers and wounded thousands more. The assassinations of two heads of state, political leaders, and high-ranking military officers have made it clear that no politician or public figure is immune to these attacks. The Black Tigers constitute the most significant proof that suicide terrorism is not merely a religious phenomenon and that under certain extreme political and psychological circumstances secular volunteers are fully capable of martyrdom. The Tamil suicide bombers are not the product of a religious cult, but rather a cult of personality: Velupillai Prabhakaran, the brutal and charismatic LTTE leader who initiated the practice, appears to have been greatly influenced by the spectacular successes of Hezbollah in Lebanon. Fiercely determined to fight the repressive Sinhalese government until the Tamils achieve independence, Prabhakaran created the suicide units largely by the strength of his personality and his unlimited control of the organization. The formation of the Black Tigers was greatly facilitated by an early practice of the organization's members: Since the early 1980s, all LTTE fighters-male and female alike-have been required to carry potassium cyanide capsules. A standard LTTE order makes it unequivocally clear that soldiers are to consume the capsule's contents if capture is imminent. The LTTE suicide units are essentially an extension of the organization's general culture of supreme martyrdom; the passage from ordinary combat soldier to suicide bomber is a short and tragic journey. Making Suicide Terrorists Pay The perceived strength of suicide bombers is that they are lone, irrational fanatics who cannot be deterred. The actual weakness of suicide bombers is that they are nothing more than the instruments of terrorist leaders who expect their organizations to gain tangible benefits from this shocking tactic. The key to countering suicide bombers, therefore, is to make terrorist organizations aware that this decision will incur painful costs. While no simple formula for countering suicide terrorism exists, the experiences of the last two decades suggest two complementary political and operational strategies. Organizations only implement suicide terrorism systematically if their community (and, in some cases, a foreign client state) approves of its use. Thus, political and economic sanctions against the terrorists' community, combined with effective coercive diplomacy against their foreign patrons, may help reduce or end suicide terrorism. The problem with political counterterrorism, however, is that it takes a long time to implement and the results are never certain. The Taliban in Afghanistan, for instance, continue to host Osama bin Laden (who was indicted by the United States in November 1998 for the bombings of the two U.S. embassies in East Africa) despite international sanctions, a unanimously adopted United Nations Security Council Resolution demanding that he stand trial, and a threat from the United States that the Taliban will be held responsible for any terrorist acts undertaken while Bin Laden is under their protection. The leaders of organizations that resort to suicide terrorism are evidently ready to take great risks. Consequently, the political battle against suicide bombers must always be enhanced by an aggressive operational campaign. Governments do not have to invent entirely new tactics when waging a war against suicide terrorists. Instead, they must adapt and intensify existing counterterrorism strategies to exploit the vulnerabilities of suicide bombers. The Achilles' heel of suicide terrorists is that they are part of a large, operational infrastructure. It may not be possible to profile and apprehend would-be suicide bombers, but once it has been established that an organization has resolved to use suicide terrorism, security services can strike against the commanders and field officers who recruit and train the assailants and then plan the attacks. This counterterrorism effort calls for the formation of effective networks of informers, the constant monitoring of potential collaborators, and close cooperation among international intelligence services. Counterterrorist operatives must apply consistent pressure on the terrorist infrastructure through harassment and attacks. They must also seek ways to cut off the terrorists' sources of funding by depriving organizations of their financial resources (such as international bank accounts or "front" businesses). Regardless of the presence or absence of hard evidence for planned operations, it is essential to put potential terrorists on the run. The physical protection of potential target areas is another essential tactic. The idea of erecting concrete barriers against a martyr driving a truck loaded with tons of explosives might strike some as ludicrously inadequate. But such physical protection serves two essential objectives: It reduces the effect of the suicide bombing if and when the terrorist hits the target area, and it serves as a deterrent against potential suicide strikes. For the terrorist field officers, who may never know when they will be caught or killed, each suicide squad is precious. When faced with highly protected areas, they are unlikely to send squads into action. Roadblocks, guards at special checkpoints, inspection teams in public places, and the use of dogs and artificial sniffing devices may drive suicide terrorism down significantly. Such security measures also reassure the public. Governments must never forget that terrorism constitutes a form of psychological warfare, and that suicide terrorism is the ultimate expression of this struggle. Terrorism must always be fought psychologically-a battle that often takes place in the minds of ordinary people. Even if governments do not have an immediate operational solution to suicide terrorism, they must convince their citizens that they are not sitting ducks and that the authorities are doing everything they can to protect them. Ordinary people should, in fact, be informed that psychological warfare is being waged against them. Free people who are told that they are being subjected to psychological manipulation are likely to develop strong terrorism antibodies. In fighting suicide bombers, it is important not to succumb to the idea that they are ready to do anything and lose everything. This is the same sort of simplistic reasoning that has fueled the widespread hysteria over terrorists acquiring weapons of mass destruction (WMD). The perception that terrorists are undeterrable fanatics who are willing to kill millions indiscriminately just to sow fear and chaos belies the reality that they are cold, rational killers who employ violence to achieve specific political objectives. Whereas the threat of WMD terrorism is little more than overheated rhetoric, suicide bombing remains a devastating form of terrorism whose complete demise is unlikely in the 21st century. The ongoing political instability in the Middle East, Russia, and South Asia-including Iran, Afghanistan, Chechnya, and possibly India and Pakistan-suggests that these regions will continue to be high-risk areas, with irregular suicide bombings occasionally extending to other parts of the globe. But the present understanding of the high costs of suicide terrorism and the growing cooperation among intelligence services worldwide gives credence to the hope that in the future only desperate organizations of losers will try to use this tactic on a systematic basis. Ehud Sprinzak is dean of the Lauder School of Government, Policy, and Diplomacy at the Interdisciplinary Center in Herzliya, Israel. ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************** From mmotyka at lsil.com Fri Sep 14 17:26:52 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 17:26:52 -0700 Subject: Material support to terrorists "concealing or disguising?" Message-ID: <3BA2A04C.B41E8321@lsil.com> >(a) Offense. - Whoever, within the United States, provides material support >or resources or conceals or disguises the nature, location, source, or >ownership of material support or resources, knowing or intending that they >are to be used in preparation for, or in carrying out, a violation of [XYZ] > Obviously AT&T is innocent since they did not know or intend and likewise so is a remailer operator who is not privy to the schemes of the terrorists so has no knowlege or intent. Or does innocence depend upon the depth of one's pockets? I doubt getting rid of remailers is so simple as the authorities that be not liking them. There's some time and effort involved and success is not certain. While they're at it might as well get rid of personal ads and public bulletin boards newsgroups ad infinitum. Our speech-restricting politicians are worthless. Mike From baptista at pccf.net Fri Sep 14 15:14:08 2001 From: baptista at pccf.net (baptista at pccf.net) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 18:14:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fwd: Great article about afghanistan/taliban/bin laden] (fwd) Message-ID: Here is a good article originally posted to nanog which is a good write up on afganistan and the horros which await. -- The dot.GOD Registry, Limited http://www.dot-god.com/ ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:32:41 -0700 From: Imran Qureshi To: nanog at merit.edu Subject: [Fwd: Great article about afghanistan/taliban/bin laden] One of our colleague posted the following article and it really shows the plight of the real afghans. Regards, Imran > > > Dear Friends, > > > The following was sent to me by my friend Tamim Ansary. Tamim is > >an Afghani-American writer. He is also one of the most brilliant people > >I know in this life. When he writes, I read. When he talks, I listen. > >Here is his take on Afghanistan and the whole mess we are in. > > > -Gary T. > > > > > > > > > Dear Gary and whoever else is on this email thread: > > > > > > I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back to > >the Stone Age." Ronn Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this > >would mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with > >this atrocity, but "we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage. > >What else can we do?" Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing > >whether we "have the belly to do what must be done." > > And I thought about the issues being raised especially hard because > >I am from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived here for 35 years I've > >never lost track of what's going on there. So I want to tell anyone who > >will listen how it all looks from where I'm standing. > >I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. There is no > >doubt in my mind that these people were responsible for the atrocity > >in New York. I agree that something must be done about those monsters. > >But the Taliban and Ben Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even > >the government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant > >psychotics > >who took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a political criminal > >with a plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you think Bin > >Laden, think Hitler. And when you think "the people of Afghanistan" think > >"the Jews in the concentration camps." It's not only that the Afghan > >people had nothing to do with this atrocity. > >They were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would exult if > >someone would come in there, take out the Taliban and clear out the rats > >nest of international thugs holed up in their country. > > Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban? The > >answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated, suffering. > >A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000 > >disabled orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy, no food. > > > There are millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying these > >widows alive in mass graves. The soil is littered with land mines, the > >farms were all destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the reasons > >why the Afghan people have not overthrown the Taliban. > > >We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone > >Age. Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of it already. > >Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level their houses? > >Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate their > >hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off from >medicine > >and health care? Too late. Someone already did all that. > > > > > New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at > >least get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only the >Taliban > >eat, only they have the means to move around. They'd slip away and hide. > >Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they don't > >move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul > >and dropping bombs wouldn't really be a strike against the criminals > >who did this horrific thing. Actually it would only be making common > >cause with the Taliban--by raping once again the people they've been > >raping all this time > > > So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now speak with > >true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in there > >with ground troops. When people speak of "having the belly to do what > >needs to be done" they're thinking in terms of having the belly to kill > >as many as needed. Having the belly to overcome any moral qualms about > >killing innocent people. Let's pull our heads out of the sand. What's > >actually on the table is Americans dying. And not just because some > >Americans > >would die fighting their way through Afghanistan to Bin Laden's hideout. > > It's much bigger than that folks. Because to get any troops to > >Afghanistan, > >we'd have to go through Pakistan. Would they > >let us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan would have to be first. > >Will other Muslim nations just stand by? You see where I'm going. We're > >flirting with a world war between Islam and the West. > > And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he >wants. > >That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements. It's all right > >there. He really believes Islam would beat the west. It might seem > >ridiculous, > >but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam and the West, > >he's got a billion soldiers. If the west wreaks a holocaust in those > >lands, that's a billion people with nothing left to lose, that's even > >better from Bin Laden's point of view. He's probably wrong, in the end > >the west would win, whatever that would mean, but the war would last > >for years and millions would die, not just theirs but ours. Who has the > >belly for that? Bin Laden does. Anyone else? > > > > > Tamim Ansary From aimee.farr at pobox.com Fri Sep 14 16:15:08 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 18:15:08 -0500 Subject: No Subject In-Reply-To: <3KRJRMH4GXGWD20QJKAENN3MKSMHH2UAHYOWYH10@ziplip.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com]On > Behalf Of citizenQ > Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 5:54 PM > To: cypherpunks at lne.com > Subject: No Subject > > > Reading the discussion I see that the amendment calls for > inclusion of 'terrorist activies' into Title III which allows > wiretapping under Court order, not anything about warrantless > wiretapping. I did not perform all the text substitutions of the > amemdment itself though. However in the language of the > amendment all references that I read are to activities under > court order. > > Please indicate the wider circumstances, particularly the > warrantless circumstances, that this amendment allows > cybertapping under, for those of us without your time or acumen > in editing the existing Title III language. (c) EMERGENCY INSTALLATION.-- (1) AUTHORITY FOR UNITED STATES ATTORNEYS.--Section 3125(a) of that title is amended in the matter preceding paragraph (1)-- (A) by striking ``or any Deputy Assistant Attorney General,'' and inserting ``any Deputy Assistant Attorney General, or any United States Attorney,''. (2) EXPANSION OF EMERGENCY CIRCUMSTANCES.--Section 3125(a)(1) of that title is amended-- (A) in subparagraph (A), by striking ``or'' at the end; (B) in subparagraph (B), by striking the comma at the end and inserting a semicolon; and (C) by inserting after subparagraph (B) the following new subparagraphs: ``(C) immediate threat to the national security interests of the United States; ``(D) immediate threat to public health or safety; or ``(E) an attack on the integrity or availability of a protected computer which attack would be an offense punishable under section 1030(c)(2)(C) of this title,''. > You also did not quote this: > "One of the most effective investigative tools at the disposal of law > enforcement agencies is the ability to go to a Federal judge and get > wiretapping authority. It is critical in matters such as > this. That is > the ability to intercept oral or electronic conversations > involving the > subject of a criminal investigation. The legislative scheme that > provides this authority, and at the same time protects the > individual > liberties of American citizens to be secure against unwarranted > government surveillance, is referred to in the criminal code > as Title > III. Among the many protections inherent in Title III is > that only the > investigations of certain criminal offenses, those judged to be > sufficiently serious to warrant the use of this potent > crime-fighting > weapon, are eligible for wiretapping orders. The law lays > out a number > of crimes deemed by Congress to be serious enough to warrant > allowing > the FBI to intercept electronic and oral communications. > Title III currently allows interception of communications in > connection with the investigation of such crimes as mail fraud, wire > fraud, and the interstate transportation of stolen property. > Inexplicably, however, the Federal terrorism statutes are not > currently included in Title III. I have been complaining > about this for > a long time and this is the time to correct it." This is somewhat of a mistatement considering the breadth of 2516.> From aimee.farr at pobox.com Fri Sep 14 16:16:36 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 18:16:36 -0500 Subject: Material support to terrorists "concealing or disguising?" Message-ID: [Any previous discussion of this? Summary/Conclusions?] Sec. 2339A. (FOOTNOTE 1) Providing material support to terrorists (a) Offense. - Whoever, within the United States, provides material support or resources or conceals or disguises the nature, location, source, or ownership of material support or resources, knowing or intending that they are to be used in preparation for, or in carrying out, a violation of section 32, 37, 81, 175, 351, 831, 842(m) or (n), 844(f) or (i), 930(c), 956, 1114, 1116, 1203, 1361, 1362, 1363, 1366, 1751, 1992, 2155, 2156, 2280, 2281, 2332, 2332a, 2332b, 2332c, [2] or 2340A of this title or section 46502 of title 49, or in preparation for, or in carrying out, the concealment or an escape from the commission of any such violation, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both. (b) Definition. - In this section, the term ''material support or resources'' means currency or other financial securities, financial services, lodging, training, safehouses, false documentation or identification, communications equipment, facilities, weapons, lethal substances, explosives, personnel, transportation, and other physical assets, except medicine or religious materials. (d) Extraterritorial Jurisdiction. - There is extraterritorial Federal jurisdiction over an offense under this section. Sec. 2339B. Providing material support or resources to designated foreign terrorist organizations (a) Prohibited Activities. - (1) Unlawful conduct. - Whoever, within the United States or subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, knowingly provides material support or resources to a foreign terrorist organization, or attempts or conspires to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both. (4) the term ''material support or resources'' has the same meaning as in section 2339A; .. (6) the term ''terrorist organization'' means an organization designated as a terrorist organization under section 219 of the Immigration and Nationality Act. From baptista at pccf.net Fri Sep 14 15:19:51 2001 From: baptista at pccf.net (baptista at pccf.net) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 18:19:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: AT&T Switch operational in basement of WTC (fwd) Message-ID: -- The dot.GOD Registry, Limited http://www.dot-god.com/ Newsgroups: comp.dcom.telecom AT&T equipment survived trade center collapse =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= PHILADELPHIA, Sept 12 (Reuters) - AT&T Corp. (NYSE:T - news), the No. 1 U.S. long-distance telephone and cable television company, said its communications network carried a flood of heavy calling volume on Wednesday, but remained unharmed after its equipment survived the collapse of the World Trade Center. Calling volume on "the network is running about about 20 percent above a typical Wednesday morning," AT&T spokesman Dave Johnson said. "There's heavy inbound surge to the New York and Washington areas and some network congestion, but nothing like yesterday." AT&T handles about 300 million voice telephone calls a day. It carried 431 million calls on Tuesday as customers flooded the telephone lines in the wake of the attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon, making it the heaviest business day in the company's network history, Johnson said. AT&T's local network switching equipment, which routes telephone calls, was located in the basement of the World Trade Center towers and survived the implosion of the buildings, Johnson said. "It appears the equipment has survived ... It was up and alive and still providing dial tone by 4 o'clock yesterday afternoon. Once the back-up batteries ran out, we took them offline, but the equipment is still working," Johnson said. "We were amazed," he said. "It was several stories under ground and all I can say is that they must have built up that basement very sturdy.'' The switching equipment handled calls for AT&T business customers in Lower Manhattan. The company rerouted calls and suffered no network outages, Johnson said. AT&T will retrieve the equipment once it gets approval from New York City and disaster teams to approach the rubble of the World Trade Center. The New York-based company said none of its employees were injured or killed in the attacks. From baptista at pccf.net Fri Sep 14 15:22:37 2001 From: baptista at pccf.net (!Dr. Joe Baptista) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 18:22:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Israel Shamir: Orient Express (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 18:51:51 -0500 (CDT) From: MSANEWS To: msanews at lists.acs.ohio-state.edu Subject: Israel Shamir: Orient Express ____________________________________________________________________________ __ __________ _ _______ ______ / |/ / __/ _ | / |/ / __/ | /| / / __/ / /|_/ /\ \/ __ |/ / _/ | |/ |/ /\ \ /_/ /_/___/_/ |_/_/|_/___/ |__/|__/___/ Support MSANEWS, a project of learning and enlightenment "A Mind is a Terrible Thing to Waste" -- Martin Luther King ____________________________________________________________________________ Source: Direct Submission Organization: ALAQSA INTIFADA . org Email: info at alaqsaintifada.org Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 00:34:02 -0700 Title: Orient Express TEXT: Note: Although this article of Sept. 12 is a little outdated by new findings, it certainly offers food for thought! _____ Orient Express By Israel Shamir Like the Four Riders of the Apocalypse, the unknown kamikaze rode their giant crafts into the two visible symbols of American world domination, Wall Street and the Pentagon. They vanished in flames and smoke, and we do not yet know who they were. They could be practically anybody: American Nationalists, American Communists, American Fundamentalist Christians, American Anarchists, anybody who rejects the twin gods of the dollar and the M-16, who hates the stock market and interventions overseas, who dreams of America for Americans, who does not want to support the drive for world domination. They could be Native Americans returning to Manhattan, or Afro-Americans who still have not received compensation for slavery. They could be foreigners of practically any extraction, as Wall Street and the Pentagon ruined many lives of people all over the globe. Germans can remember the fiery holocaust of Dresden with its hundreds of thousands of peaceful refugees incinerated by the US Air Force. Japanese will not forget the nuclear holocaust of Hiroshima. The Arab world still feels the creeping holocaust of Iraq and Palestine. Russians and East Europeans feel the shame of Belgrade avenged. Latin Americans think of American invasions of Panama and Granada, of destroyed Nicaragua and defoliated Colombia. Asians count their dead of Vietnam war, Cambodia bombings, Laos CIA operations in millions. Even a pro-American, Russian TV broadcaster could not refrain from saying, `now Americans begin to understand the feelings of Baghdad and Belgrade'. The Riders could be anybody who lost his house to the bank, who was squeezed from his work and made permanently unemployed, who was declared an Untermensch by the new Herrenvolk. They could be Russians, Malaysians, Indonesians, Pakistanis, Congolese, as their economy was destroyed by Wall Street and the Pentagon. They could be anybody, and they are everybody. Their identity is quite irrelevant, but the Jews already decided: it has to be Arabs. One would think, after Oklahoma, we should become less hasty with our conclusions. But my countrymen, Israeli politicians are impatient folk. The flames in Manhattan did not die out yet, they started political profit taking. Mr Ehud Barak came live on BBC, and said `Arafat' within three minutes flat. On CNN, his twin Bibi Natanyahu appropriated the blame to Arabs, Muslims, Palestinians. Shimon Peres, an old wizened wizard, spoke against suicide as a psychiatric adviser, reminding his audience of Palestinian attacks. He looked worried: it is hard to enslave people who are not afraid to die. This old killer of Kana even mentioned Gospels. Density of Israelis on the air approached the saturation point. They insinuated and incited, pushing their shopping list into a chalk-white face of shell-shocked America: please, destroy Iran! And Iraq! And Libya, plees! The first twenty four hours of maximal exposure were utilised by the Jewish propaganda machine to its utmost. Not a single fact was yet known, but racist anti-Arab slurs became a commonplace. While we Jews quite reasonably object to any reference to the Jewishness of a bad guy, we really do not mind producing revolting racist drivel of our own. A good Jewish-American activist, James Jordan, warned in al-Awda: "Making broad, all-inclusive statements and insinuations about "Jews" completely marginalizes and discredits your organization". But how come the endless stream of 'broad, all-inclusive statements and insinuations', about 'the Arabs' did not 'completely marginalized and discredited' the Jewish organisations and media who practice it? Apparently, it is a Jewish right to decide who will be marginalized in America and who will not. The connection was in the minds. The American Jewish supremacists want to turn all the world into Palestine, where the natives will enjoy harsh local rule and limited local rights, while the master race will have a rather different level of life. Israel is just a small-scale model of their new brave world of globalisation. As there were no hard facts against Palestinians, the Israelis made their damnedest from the scenes of joy shot in East Jerusalem. It is a rather weak point, and I'll tell you why. In Agatha Christie's Murder on the Orient Express, her favourite detective M. Poireau encounters an unusual complication: all passengers on board the train have had a good reason to bump off the unpleasant old lady. My dear American friends, your leaders placed your great country into the old lady's shoes. Israelis used the event to the max. They even killed some ten Palestinians and destroyed five Goyiish houses in Jerusalem. The reports were rather gleeful, in the style `we told you', and the experts of Israeli TV concluded by one o'clock, the attack `was good for the Jews'. Why? It would strengthen American support of Israel. The kamikaze attack could do exactly that. America could enter a new cycle of violence in its troubled relations with the world. Revenge will follow revenge, until one of the sides will be obliterated by nuclear blast. It appears president Bush prefers this course. He declared war on his and Israel's adversaries. Bush did not even understand that the war was declared by the US many years ago, only now it started to come home. So many people are sick of America's ham-fisted approach, that the countdown for the next attack began. Alternatively, America could see this painful strike at her Wall Street and her Pentagon, as the last call to repent. She should change her advisers, and build her relations with the world afresh, on equal footing. Probably she should rule in the domination-obsessed Jewish supremacist elites of Wall Street and media, part company with the apartheid Jewish state. She could become again the universally loved, rather parochial America of Walt Whitman and Thomas Edison, Henry Ford and Abe Lincoln. Jaffa, 12.9.01 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - brought to you by alaqsaintifada.org ____________________________________________________________________________ <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> <> <> <> "... On that account: We ordained <> <> for the Children of Israel that <> <> if anyone slew a person it <> <> would be as if he slew the <> <> whole people: and if any <> <> one saved a life, it would be <> <> as if he saved the <> <> life of the whole people." <> <> Holy Qur'an, Surah al-Maidah 5:32. <> <> <> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> ____________________________________________________________________________ "And the mind - may God preserve you - is more prone to deep sleep than the eye. Neediest of sharpening than a sword. Poorest to treatment. Fastest to change. Its illness, the deadliest. Its doctors, the rarest. And its cure, the hardest. Whoever got a hold of it, before the spread of the disease, found his sake. Whoever tried to wrestle it after the spread would not find his sake. The greatest purpose of knowledge is the abundance of inspiring thoughts. Then, the ways to go about one's needs are met." -- Al-Jahiz ("Puffy"), 9th Century Baghdad, Kitab at-Tarbi` wat-Tadweer ("Squaring the Circle"), p. 101, Edited by Prof. Charles Pellat, Institut Francais de Damas, 1955. ______________________________________________________________________________ __ __________ _ _______ ______ / |/ / __/ _ | / |/ / __/ | /| / / __/ / /|_/ /\ \/ __ |/ / _/ | |/ |/ /\ \ /_/ /_/___/_/ |_/_/|_/___/ |__/|__/___/ Views expressed on MSANEWS do not necessarily represent those of the MSANEWS editors, the Ohio State University or any of our associated staff and "watchers". Further distribution of material featured on this list may be restricted. In all cases, please obtain the necessary permission of the authors or rightful owners before forwarding any material to or from this list. This service is meant for the exchange of analyses and news, for both academic and activist usage. We depend on your input. However, this is not a discussion list. Thank you. To subscribe, send e-mail to: with the message body "subscribe MSANEWS Firstname Lastname". To unsubscribe, send e-mail to the above address, with the message body "unsubscribe MSANEWS". MSANEWS Home Page: Comments to the Editors: Submissions for MSANEWS: Problems with subscription: ______________________________________________________________________________ From baptista at pccf.net Fri Sep 14 15:26:12 2001 From: baptista at pccf.net (!Dr. Joe Baptista) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 18:26:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: NO RUSH TO WAR!/O'Reilly Factor/FOX/13Sept2001 .. Prof. Boyle, Mr. Sam Husseini Discussions with Bill O'Reilly (fwd) Message-ID: Source: Direct Submission Email: "Boyle, Francis" Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 08:32:53 -0500 Title: NO RUSH TO WAR!/O'Reilly Factor/FOX/13Sept2001 TEXT: SHOW: THE O'REILLY FACTOR (20:29) September 13, 2001 Thursday Transcript # 091303cb.256 SECTION: News; Domestic HEADLINE: America Unites How Should the U.S. Bring Terrorists to Justice? GUESTS: Sam Husseini, Francis Boyle BYLINE: Bill O'Reilly THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. O'REILLY: While most Americans are united in their support of President Bush and the desire to bring Osama bin Laden and other terrorists to justice, there are some differing voices. Joining us now from Washington is Sam Husseini, the former spokesman for the Arab Anti -- American Anti-Discrimination Committee, and from Urbana, Illinois, is Francis Boyle, an international law professor at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign.......... .... O'REILLY: Cut his mike. All right, now, Mr. Boyle, Professor Boyle, let's have a little bit more of a rational discussion here. That was absurd. The United States now has to take action against certain segments in this world who we know have been harbouring people like Osama bin Laden. That's going to happen. How will you react to that? FRANCIS BOYLE, LAW PROFESSOR: Well, first I think you have to look at the law involved. Clearly what we have here, under United States domestic law and statutes, is an act of international terrorism that should be treated as such. It is not yet elevated to an act of war. For an act of war, we need proof that a foreign state actually ordered or launched an attack upon the United States of America. So far, we do not yet have that evidence. We could... O'REILLY: All right, now why are you, why are you, why are you taking this position when you know forces have attacked the United States. Now, maybe they don't have a country, but they are forces. They have attacked the United States, all right? Without warning, without provocation. Civilian targets. They've done everything that an act of war does. So, I'm saying that because we live in a different world now, where borders don't really matter, where terrorism is the weapon of choice, that you would declare war -- if I were President Bush, I would declare war on any hostile forces, notice those words, professor, hostile forces to the United States. I would have a blanket declaration of war so I could go in and kill those people. Would I be wrong? BOYLE: Well, Bill, so far you'll note Congress has been unwilling to declare war. And indeed, this matter is being debated right now. Right now, it appears that what they are seeking is not a full declaration of war, but only what we law professors call an imperfect declaration, which means a limited use of military force under the War Powers Resolution of 1973. Precisely for the problem that we don't know if any state was involved and we still do not know who was responsible for this undoubted terrorist attack upon the United States of America. O'REILLY: All right, but we have the secretary of state saying that Osama bin Laden now has been linked into and, you know, we don't have all the intelligence information, as President Bush said today. He's not going to give us, and he shouldn't, the people of America all the information that they have. But when the secretary of state gets up and says, look, we know this guy was involved to some extent, I believe him. And he's a wanted man, professor. He's been wanted for eight years. The Clinton administration didn't have the heart to get him and in the first few months the Bush administration didn't either. We now know, and you just heard the FBI agent say that Afghanistan has been involved for years harbouring and training these kinds of people. Certainly, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, Iran, Iraq, those five countries, certainly have been hostile to the United States and given safe harbour to these terrorists. That's a fact. BOYLE: Well, let me point out, the secretary of state was very careful in the words he used. He said Osama bin Laden was a suspect. He did not accuse him. And, again, under these circumstances... O'REILLY: No, he didn't use the word suspect. He used another word. BOYLE: The account I read in, just off the wire service, said suspect. But let me continue my point. Under these circumstances, where we have 5,000 Americans dead and we could have many more Americans killed in a conflict, we have to be very careful, Congress and the American people and the president, in not to over-escalate the rhetoric, here. We have to look at this very rationally. This is a democracy. We have a right to see what the evidence is and proceed in a very slow and deliberate manner. O'REILLY: No, we don't. We do not, as a republic, we don't have the right to see what the evidence is if the evidence is of a national security situation, as you know. Now, I'm trusting my government to do the right thing, here. I am trusting. But I think it's beyond a doubt right now, beyond a reasonable doubt, which is, as you know, a court of law standard, that there are at least five, North Korea you could put in to, six states in the world that have harboured continually these terrorists. Now, we know that this was a well-coordinated effort. Our initial intelligence shows that some of the people that have been arrested have ties to Osama bin Laden. We know, as you just heard the FBI agent say, that the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center was tied in to a guy who knew bin Laden. So, bin Laden -- I agree with you, that you don't want to be a hothead. You don't want to overreact. You don't want to lob a missile at the pharmaceutical plant in the Sudan, which was terrible, and that was the one good point, or fair point, that Mr. Husseini made, you don't want to do that. But, on the other hand, professor, I think Americans are rightful, are right, to demand action against states that we know in the past have harboured these individuals and there's a warrant out for Osama bin Laden's arrest. So, if he is in Afghanistan, I would give that government a couple of days to hand him over, and if they did not, I'd go in. BOYLE: Well, again. The American people are right. We need to see the evidence. I remember people saying a generation ago, during the Vietnam war, I trusted my government. And I think people of my generation found out that that was wrong. We needed more evidence. O'REILLY: All right. Professor, let me stop you there, though. This is another point that Mr. Husseini tried to make. Just because the United States of America has made mistakes in the past, does not mean that we cannot defend ourselves now. This is a unique situation in history. We have now been attacked by forces without borders, OK? We've been attacked. And it hasn't been a military attack, it's been an attack on civilians. The reason, the sole reason a federal government exists is to protect the people of the United States. And as I said in my "Talking Points" memo, they haven't really done the job, for political reasons. But now's the time to correct those things. So, there's going to be a reckoning, Professor. You know it's going to happen. I know it's going to happen. And it's going to come down on Osama bin Laden first and maybe some of these rouge states later. Will you support that action? BOYLE: Before I support a war that will jeopardize the lives of tens of thousands of our servicemen and women, I want to see the evidence that we are relying on to justify this. So far, I do not see it. I see allegations. I see innuendo. I see winks and I see nods, but I do not see the evidence that you need under international law and the United States constitution so far to go to war. Maybe that evidence will be there, but it is not there now. My recommendation to Congress is to slow down, let's see what develops and let's see what this evidence is before we knowingly go out and not only kill large numbers of people, perhaps in Afghanistan and other countries, but undoubtedly in our own armed forces. 58,000 men of my generation will killed in Vietnam because of irresponsible behavior by the Johnson administration rushing that Tonkin Gulf resolution through Congress, exactly what we're seeing now. And we need to pull back and stop and think and ask the hard questions and demand to see the evidence first, before we march off to war. O'REILLY: All right, so it's not enough that people arrested in the bombings of the embassies in Africa testified in court that Osama bin Laden was behind and financed and coordinated those bombings. That evidence is not enough for you? BOYLE: Well, Africa is a very is a very different story than what happened in the World Trade Center. O'REILLY: No, it's not. He's wanted, he's wanted in the United States for the bombings of those two embassies. Is that evidence enough for you, professor, for the United States to go in and get this man? Is it enough? BOYLE: That, that matter was treated and handled as an act of international terrorism in accordance with the normal laws and procedures of the United States of America as a question of domestic and international law enforcement. And I am suggesting that is the way we need to proceed here... O'REILLY: Well, wait. You're dodging the question professor. BOYLE: ... unless we have evidence that... O'REILLY: Wait, professor. Professor. This is a no spin zone. Hold it. Hold it. Even out in Urbana Champagne, the no spin zone rules. You're dodging the question. There is an absolutely rock solid arrest warrant out for this man. Evidence in court, testimony by people who did the bombings that this man was behind it. Is that enough evidence for you to have the United States go in and get him now? Is it enough? BOYLE: The United States has been attempting to secure his extradition from Afghanistan. I support... O'REILLY: Yeah, that's long enough. BOYLE: I support that approach as international... O'REILLY: Come on already, I mean, eight years, we've been attempting to extradite this guy. Now's the time to tell the Afghans you've got 48 hours or 72 hours to turn him over. You don't turn him over, we're coming in and getting him. You try to stop us, and you're toast. Enough is enough, professor. BOYLE: That's vigilantism. It is not what the United States of America is supposed to stand for. We are supposed to stand... O'REILLY: No, what that is is protecting the country from terrorists who kill civilians. BOYLE: ... for rule of law. O'REILLY: It's not vigilantism. BOYLE: We are supposed to stand for rule of law, and that is clearly vigilantism. There is a Security Council, there is Congress, there are procedures and there are laws, and they are there to protect all of us here in the United States as well as... O'REILLY: So, you're telling me... BOYLE: ... as well as our servicemen and women. Look, Bill, if we allegedly, as you put it, go in, you are not going in, I am not going in. It's going to be young men and women serving in our armed forces... O'REILLY: And that's their job. To protect us. But, professor, let me, you know, what you're saying is, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold it. Hold it. Hold it. Hold it. B0YLE: ... with the constitution and the laws of the United States. O'REILLY: We're not violating any laws here, professor. No one is going to violate the law. There is going to be a state of war induced against states, states, terroristic states, who have attacked us. And what you're saying is, though, and correct me if I'm wrong, you're saying that even though there is a legitimate warrant out for Osama bin Laden's arrest, and even though most civilized nations would honor that warrant and turn him over to us, extradite him to us, the vast majority of nations on earth would do that, you still are opposed for the United States to demand that the Taliban government arrest this man and turn him over? You are opposed to that? BOYLE: During the Gulf War, President Bush's father, who has far more experience that the current president Bush, got a Security Council resolution authorizing the United States of America to use force to expel Iraq from Kuwait. Second, President Bush's father got a War Powers Authorization Resolution from Congress that gave him the constitutional authority to use military force to enforce that Security Council resolution. What I'm calling for here is the same adherence to international law and the United States constitution that the first President Bush adhered to in dealing with Iraq. O'REILLY: Well, you'll get that, professor. That's just a formality. There -- nobody on Capitol Hill right now, they're not going to -- there's no profile of courages up there anyway, usually. They're going to give President Bush what he wants. If he wants a War Powers Act, they're going to give it to him. He wants a declaration, they're going to give it to him. BOYLE: Actually, they're arguing about it right now... O'REILLY: They're going to give it to him. But I'm not interested in that, because it's going to happen. It's going to happen. BOYLE: The reports -- no, the reports I read was that this President Bush initially asked for a blank check, and Congress balked because they had been suckered once before... O'REILLY: All right, I'm not -- speculation is not what I'm in -- all right, professor. I don't want to speculate. I'm just going to say in my opinion he's going to have the authority to go in and get Osama bin Laden and his pals, wherever they are. He will get that authority, whether it takes a day or a week, he'll get it. And once he gets it, now, that's what I want to talk about here. Once he gets it, are you and others like you going to say, oh, no, we shouldn't do this, even though we have proof of the man's -- masterminded the bombings in Africa and the Cole,testimony in Yemen, are you going to still say, even after the authority is granted by Congress, which it will be, no, don't do it, let Afghanistan handle him? Are you going to still do that, professor? BOYLE: Second, like his father, his father also got authorization from the United States, the United Nations Security Council under chapter seven of the United Nations charter... O'REILLY: Oh, you want to go to U.N. now? You want the U.N. involved now. BOYLE: Is exactly what his father did... O'REILLY: So what? BOYLE: And that's exactly right. O'REILLY: His father made a huge mistake by not taking out Sadam Hussein when he could of. BOYLE: His father adhered to the required procedures under the United States constitution and the United Nations charter that is a treaty and the supreme law of our land. I expect the current President Bush to do exactly what his father did before he starts engaging in a massive military campaign in Iraq or against other countries... O'REILLY: All right, I don't know whether he's going to go -- I know he's not going to let the U.N. dictate. He might go for a consensus. He's already got it with Putin and all of our NATO allies, he's already go that. Whether he goes -- I think it would be a mistake to let -- empowering the U.N. in this situation. BOYLE: Then why did his father do this? O'REILLY: I'm going -- we're going to wrap this up with this. I'm going to give my last summation and then you can give yours, I'll give you the last word on it. This is a fugitive we're dealing with here. He has now been tied in by U.S. intelligence agencies, according to Attorney General Ashcroft and the secretary of state, tied into this horrendous bombing here in New York. The United States must make a response to this, and I am agreeing with you in a sense, it can't be a knee-jerk. It's got to be done in a methodical way. Congress will go along, they may debate it or whatever, but they will go along in either a War Powers, special War Powers Act or a declaration of war against forces hostile to the United States. Then they will go in and they will take him. This man you're looking at on the TV screen is a dead man. He should be a dead man. You don't do what he did and be allowed to walk around this earth. Now, I'm distressed, professor, by your reliance, reliance on the strict letter of propriety, when we've got 10,000 people laying in the street about 22 miles from me right now. I want deliberation. I want methodical discipline, but I also want action. We know who this guy is. We know the governments that are protecting him. We know the other rouge states that have terrorist camps there. They all have to be dealt with, in my opinion. I'll give you the last word. BOYLE: Sure, I agree with you, Bill. He is a fugitive from justice and this should be handled as a matter as other fugitives from justice of international law enforcement. If indeed there is evidence that a foreign state orchestrated and ordered an attack against the United States then clearly that is an act of war that should be dealt with as such... O'REILLY: What about harbouring? BOYLE: Right now... O'REILLY: Is harbouring an act of war? BOYLE: In my opinion, no. And under the current circumstances, I don't see it. O'REILLY: All right, professor. BOYLE: I think there is a distinction here. O'REILLY: OK, all right, wrap it up, if you would. BOYLE: I agree -- I agree that the -- if we go to war in a hasty manner here, we could see thousands of U.S. military personnel being killed without proper authorization by Congress or by the United Nations Security Council. O'REILLY: OK. BOYLE: Our founding fathers decided that the most awesome decision we would ever make would be to go to war, and we have to be very careful in making that decision. O'REILLY: All right, professor, I appreciate it very much. Thank you for your point of view. BOYLE: Thank you, Bill. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954(voice) 217-244-1478(fax) fboyle at law.uiuc.edu From nobody at dizum.com Fri Sep 14 09:40:27 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 18:40:27 +0200 (CEST) Subject: The Enemies List Message-ID: <54d2aeb03ecce2a2293130f3f0658529@dizum.com> Chefren - On behalf of the civilized readers of the cypherpunks list, please accept our apology for the implied threats of violence against you by Tim May. He is by no means representative of the larger readership. He is alone in calling for the death of those who hold views different from his own. You and other critics have every right to speak your mind and make your position known. Indeed, the cypherpunks were founded on the principle of advancing freedom of speech. It is a sad and tragic irony that one of the founders of that group has descended into a despicable allegiance to violence. Long-term subscribers have seen it happen gradually over the years. It seemed to many that the Y2K non-disaster was the last straw. Tim May was one of the worst of the Y2K paranoids, spewing hostility at anyone who dared to suggest that the event might not be a catastrophe, that the government was not engaging in a cover-up or planning to install itself as a dictatorship. The original purpose of the cypherpunks mailing list was forgotten as Tim May turned it into a forum for discussing gun ownership, preparations for disaster, and mechanisms for revenge. Many of us have been forced to use the shield of anonymity so that our voices may be heard without fear of the violent retribution that Tim May so often threatens. His frequent boasts of carrying weapons, his talk of a large arsenal, his calls for bloody revenge, all instill a genuine fear in those who would disagree with him. Very few list members have ever dared to speak up in opposition to even the most outrageous statements made by Tim May. When he said that he was becoming convinced that Tim McVeigh had done the right thing in killing hundreds of innocents, only an anonymous poster was willing to take him sharply to task. When he wrote that what he calls "the colored race" was heading for "the trash heap of history", adding "fuck 'em", only an anonymous poster spoke out against this outrageous demonstration of racism. Why? Is it because all list subscribers agree with terrorist actions like McVeigh's? (Tim May has even hinted that he welcomes the recent WTC attack!) Is it because all list subscribers are racists who wish to see their own race rise to dominance? Surely not. Rather, most readers are intimidated into silence. They don't speak up because they fear the consequences. Tim May has shown all too many times how sensitive he is to even the slightest criticism. He has a furious temper, as you, Chefren, have discovered. And he does not hesitate to threaten death. So please, don't imagine that because Tim May has added you to his enemies list, you are in any danger from the thousands of cypherpunks who subscribe to the mailing list. The vast majority abhor intimidation and threats. Indeed, most readers came to the cypherpunks out of a desire to build a society where speech would always be free, where violence would be impotent. This is why we have worked on the technologies of cryptography and anonymity. It is sad and ironic that we are forced to resort to these methods, which were intended as a shield against a hostile outside world, here on our own list. It is the only way that many of us can speak openly and freely and without fear. This is the injury which Tim May has inflicted upon the group. Fortunately the tools are available, and even his violent threats, his rants and his rage cannot silence those who would speak their minds. Again, on behalf of those of us who do not believe in violent revenge, who believe in freedom of speech for all, please accept this apology. From chefren at pi.net Fri Sep 14 09:48:52 2001 From: chefren at pi.net (chefren) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 18:48:52 +0200 Subject: The Enemies List References: <3BA2109D.5898.11BCB9DA@localhost> Message-ID: <3BA25114.13193.12B89040@localhost> On 14 Sep 2001, at 8:27, Tim May wrote: > On Friday, September 14, 2001, at 05:13 AM, chefren wrote: > > > On 13 Sep 2001, at 20:38, Tim May wrote: > > > >> On Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 06:22 PM, chefren wrote: > >> > >> Cypherpunks, I am forwarding this complete with names of cc:s attached > >> to show you some of the enemies out there. I've gotten several personal > >> e-mails. I am asking Declan, my friend, NOT to forward my posts to his > >> various lists., > > > > So why do you forward this to the cypherpunks list? What > > gives you the moral right? > > So that they will know their enemy. You are very funny. I have nothing to hide and the information I supplied was published a long time ago. It seems you live in a cardbox or something like that? What I described, is approved by almost all members of parliament of the pretty democratic country called "The Netherlands". Unregulated use of strong encryption is not forbidden yet, but we will see. If you just put people on an Enemies List and forget to argue you won't come far in a democratic country. +++chefren From wolf at priori.net Fri Sep 14 19:05:34 2001 From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 19:05:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Crypto-anonymity greases HUMINT intelligence flows In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > > Whoever opts to collect that $5,000,000 will forever live in fear. > > Cost/benefit, you do the math. I'd opt for it in a heartbeat. Assume that you could nearly guarantee a profit of $5mil or more by shorting your stocks before a terrorist attack on the World Trade Center. Would you perpetrate such a crime, and frame the "sand-niggers"? What's the cost/benefit here? How much potential profit would be necessary for a crime like this to occur with profit as the only motive? -MW- From wolf at priori.net Fri Sep 14 19:05:34 2001 From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 19:05:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Crypto-anonymity greases HUMINT intelligence flows In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > > Whoever opts to collect that $5,000,000 will forever live in fear. > > Cost/benefit, you do the math. I'd opt for it in a heartbeat. Assume that you could nearly guarantee a profit of $5mil or more by shorting your stocks before a terrorist attack on the World Trade Center. Would you perpetrate such a crime, and frame the "sand-niggers"? What's the cost/benefit here? How much potential profit would be necessary for a crime like this to occur with profit as the only motive? -MW- From aimee.farr at pobox.com Fri Sep 14 17:40:48 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 19:40:48 -0500 Subject: Material support to terrorists "concealing or disguising?" In-Reply-To: <200109142351.f8ENpcf28993@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: Tim said: > On Friday, September 14, 2001, at 04:16 PM, Aimee Farr wrote: > > > [Any previous discussion of this? Summary/Conclusions?] > > > > Sec. 2339A. (FOOTNOTE 1) Providing material support to terrorists > > > > (a) Offense. - Whoever, within the United States, provides material > > support > > or resources or conceals or disguises the nature, location, source, or > > ownership of material support or resources, knowing or intending that > > they > > are to be used in preparation for, or in carrying out, a violation of > Tim said: > http://cypherpunks.venona.com/date/1994/09/msg00577.html Ouch. Which said: To: cypherpunks at toad.com Subject: (fwd) "Will You Be a Terrorist?" From: tcmay at netcom.com (Timothy C. May) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 1994 10:45:44 -0700 (PDT) Cc: tcmay at netcom.com (Timothy C. May) ] Sender: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Cypherpunks, Not all of you like posts that mention "guns" in any form, so if this the case for you, hit "D" now. I think the recently-passed Crime Act has implications for what some are calling "terrorist speech" and that Cypherpunks remailers may be construed as "PROVIDING MATERIAL SUPPORT TO TERRORISTS" in the context of being "communications equipment." Consider this "food for thought." An excerpt, and commentary by the original anonymous poster, is included below. I know that our favorite optimists, Duncan Frissell and Sandy Sandfort, are fond of saying that it's already over, that we've already won, that the state is powerless, etc., but when I read the text of the Crime Bill (available from ftp.nra.org in pub/legislation), I just can't buy that. I see a growing police force, I see U.N. blue helmets, I see many more prosecutions for a growing list of crimes, I see my gun rights being taken away, and on and on. In the section below, read carefully the sections about providing support for "terrorists." Note that belonging to a pro- or anti-abortion group in which _one_ of the members uses violence (a fistfight, a jostling of a cop, or a shooting...) makes the group a "terrorist" group, under the new language of the Crime Act. I will not be surprised to hear that the Cypherpunks group is classified as a terrorist group, for a variety of reasons (not the least of which was the "liberation" of the RC4 code, the Mykotronx-government deal info, the debates about undermining the government, the talk of assasination markets, etc.). Sorry, but I just can't "Don't worry, be happy." --Tim May From aimee.farr at pobox.com Fri Sep 14 17:55:03 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 19:55:03 -0500 Subject: "Bugged" calling cards? In-Reply-To: <20010915001659.13621.qmail@sidereal.kz> Message-ID: See: "trap calling cards" or "skip calling cards." Yes, you can do it yourself. Without passing on the legality of this, YES, it is a sunlighted investigatory tactic. Contact a telco investigator in your jurisdiction. A skilled pretexter, and a trap line, can work better in some cases. "See a lawyer and an investigatory professional." ~Aimee > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com]On > Behalf Of Dr. Evil > Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 7:17 PM > To: cypherpunks at lne.com > Subject: "Bugged" calling cards? > > > The way calling cards in the US work is that the user calls an 800 > number and then enters a PIN number and the number to be called. The > way 800 numbers work, the 800 number operator (ie, the company that > pays for it) gets a list of all the numbers that dialed it, because > he's paying. > > It seems that it should be possible to create a "bugged" calling > card. You give this to someone as a "free prize" or whatever and then > you get a list of all the numbers he calls to and from using it. > > Does anyone know if something like this exists, which I can buy? I > want to send someone a "present". > > Thanks From hallam at ai.mit.edu Fri Sep 14 17:12:56 2001 From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Phillip Hallam-Baker) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 20:12:56 -0400 Subject: Ann Coulter Final Solution? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <021c01c13d7b$2c425160$4100a8c0@ne.mediaone.net> One of Bin Ladin's companions on the FBI 10 most wanted list is Eric Roudolf, the suspected Atlanta Olympics bomber. Phill > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu > [mailto:owner-fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu]On Behalf Of > Colin A. Reed > Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 6:44 PM > To: Matthew Gaylor > Cc: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu; cypherpunks at lne.com; > CYBERIA-L at listserv.aol.com > Subject: Re: Ann Coulter Final Solution? > > > Well here is another moron. From Jerry Fallwell's > statements, and Pat > Robertsons concurrence, I think it is pretty safe to say that > we are in > just as much danger from christain fundamentalist terrorists as from > muslim fundamentalist terrorists. I fail to see what a > conversion would > accomplish. Let alone a forced conversion. Blech. Just when I'm > feeling proud to be an American, watching the wonderful > response of the > people in New York, these scum come along and make me ashamed > to be an > American. > > On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Matthew Gaylor wrote: > > > Ann Coulter's solution as suggested in her column of September 14, > > 2001 "This is war" Located at: > > > > > > > >Airports scrupulously apply the same laughably ineffective airport > > >harassment to Suzy Chapstick as to Muslim hijackers. It is > > >preposterous to assume every passenger is a potential crazed > > >homicidal maniac. We know who the homicidal maniacs are. They are > > >the ones cheering and dancing right now. > > > > > > > > >We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert > > >them to Christianity. We weren't punctilious about locating and > > >punishing only Hitler and his top officers. We > carpet-bombed German > > >cities; we killed civilians. That's war. And this is war. > > > > > > Regards, Matt- > > > > > > > ************************************************************** > ************ > > Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues > > Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words > subscribe FA > > on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 > messages per week) > > Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ > > > ************************************************************** > ************ From SBaker at steptoe.com Fri Sep 14 17:13:31 2001 From: SBaker at steptoe.com (Baker, Stewart) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 20:13:31 -0400 Subject: IP: RE: Senate votes to permit warrantless Net-wiretaps, Carn ivore us e Message-ID: Declan, I ignored the first two points because I don't think they're that important. These "warrantless searches" are emergency orders that have to be followed by a court order in 48 hours. Sometimes courts are closed and the cops need data right away. Tuesday evening would be a good example. This is not some out-of-control police authority. The people who can ask for emergency orders have to be designated by one of several officials at Main Justice. That's to make sure someone responsible ends up with the authority to declare an emergency. So an assistant US attorney could be designated by Main Justice in each district right now. What's the big deal with letting the US Attorney for the district do the designating instead of Main Justice? Seems to me that the US Attorney probably knows more about staff changeovers than Main Justice, so it makes sense for the US Attorney to do the designating locally. Stewart ********** From baptista at pccf.net Fri Sep 14 17:42:52 2001 From: baptista at pccf.net (!Dr. Joe Baptista) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 20:42:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Robert Fisk on Suicide Bombers (fwd) Message-ID: Email: Nader Hashemi Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 22:55:23 -0400 Title: Robert Fisk on Suicide Bombers TEXT: The Independent Thursday, September 13, 2001 They can run and they can hide. Suicide bombers are here to stay By Robert Fisk Not long before the Second World War, Stanley Baldwin, who was Britain's Prime Minister, warned that "the bomber will always get through". Today, we can argue that the suicide bomber will always get through. Maybe not all of them. We may never know how many other hijackers failed to board domestic flights in the United States on Tuesday morning, but enough to produce carnage on an awesome, incomprehensive scale. Yet still we have not begun to address this phenomenon. The suicide bomber is here to stay. It is an exclusive weapon that belongs to "them" not us, and no military power appears able to deal with this phenomenon. Partly because of the suicide bomber, the Israelis fled Lebanon. Specifically because of a suicide bomber, the Americans fled Lebanon 17 years earlier. I still remember Vice-President George Bush, now George Bush Senior, visibly moved amid the ruins of the US Marine base in Beirut, where 241 American servicemen had just been slaughtered. "We are not going to let a bunch of insidious terrorist cowards, shake the foreign policy of the United States," he told us. "Foreign policy is not going to be dictated or changed by terror." A few months later, the Marines upped sticks and ran away from Lebanon, "redeployed" to their ships offshore. Not long ago, I was chatting to an Indian soldier, a veteran of Delhi's involvement in the Sri Lanka war now serving with the UN in southern Lebanon. How did the Tamil suicide bombers compare those of the Lebanese Hizbollah I asked him? The soldier raised his eyebrows. "The Hizbollah has nothing on those guys," he said. "Just think, they all carry a suicide capsule. I told my soldiers to drive at 100 miles an hour on the roads of Sri Lanka in case one of them hurled himself into the jeep." The Hizbollah may take their inspiration from the martyrdom of the prophet Hussain, and the Palestinian suicide bombers may take theirs from the Hizbollah. But there is no military answer to this. As long as "our" side will risk but not give its lives (cost-free war, after all, was partly an American invention) the suicide bomber is the other side's nuclear weapon. That desperate, pitiful phone call from the passenger on her way to her doom in the Boeing 767 crash on the Pentagon told her husband that the hijackers held knives and box-cutters. Knives and box-cutters; that's all you need now to inflict a crashing physical defeat on a superpower. That and a plane with a heavy fuel load. But the suicide bomber does not conform to a set of identical characteristics. Many of the callow Palestinian youths blowing themselves to bits, with, more often than not, the most innocent of Israelis, have little or no formal education. They have poor knowledge of the Koran but a powerful sense of fury, despair and self-righteousness to propel them. The Hizbollah suicide bombers were more deeply versed in the Koran, older, often with years of imprisonment to steel them in the hours before their immolation. Tuesday's suicide bombers created a precedent. If there were at least four on each aircraft, this means 16 men decided to kill themselves at the same time. Did they all know each other? Unlikely. Or did one of them know all the rest? For sure, they were educated. If the Boeing which hit the Pentagon was being flown by men with knives (presumably, the other three aircraft were too) then these were suicide bombers with a good working knowledge of the fly-by-wire instrument panel of one of the world's most sophisticated aircraft. I found it oddly revealing when, a few hours later, an American reporter quizzed me about my conviction that these men must have made "dummy runs", must have travelled the same American Airlines and United Airlines scheduled flights many times. They would have to do that at least to check the X-ray security apparatus at airports. How many crew, the average passenger manifest, the average delays on departure times. They needed to see if the cabin crew locked the flight deck door. In my experience on US domestic flights this is rare. Savage, cruel these men were, but also, it seems, educated. Like so many of our politicians who provide us with the same tired old promises about hunting down the guilty and, Mr Blair's contribution yesterday, "dismantle the machine of terror". But this misses the point. If the machinery is composed of knives and box-cutters, Mr Blair is after the wrong target. Just as President Ronald Reagan was in the hours before he ordered the bombing of Libya in 1986. "He can run, but he can't hide," he said of Colonel Muammar Gaddafi. But Colonel Gaddafi could hide, and he is still with us. Instead of searching for more rogue states, President George W Bush's reference to those who stand behind the bombers opens the way for more cruise missiles aimed at Iraq or Afghanistan, or wherever he thinks the "godfathers of terrorism may be". The Americans might do better to find out who taught these vicious men to fly a Boeing 767. Which Middle East airlines train their pilots for this aircraft? Indeed which nations are generous in their pilot-training schemes for Third World countries? I recall one of Iran's best post-revolutionary helicopter pilots telling me he was given a full course on the Bell Augusta (the Vietnam-era gunship) by the Pakistan air force, which itself paid retired American pilots to teach them. And if Osama bin Laden is behind the New York massacre, it's worth remembering one of his aims: not just to evict the US from the Middle East but to overthrow the Arab regimes loyal to Washington. Saudi Arabia was top of the list when I last spoke to him, but President Hosni Mubarak's Egypt and Jordan, ruled by King Abdullah II, were among his other enemies. He would keep talking about how the Muslims of these nations would rise up against their corrupt rulers. A slaughter by the US in retaliation for the New York and Washington bloodbaths might just move the Arab masses from stubborn docility to the point of detonation. Within the region, the suicide bomber is now admired. Not because he is a mass killer but because something invincible, something untouchable, something that has always dictated the rules without taking responsibility for the results, has now proved vulnerable. It was the same when the first suicide bombers struck in Lebanon. The Lebanese could scarcely believe that Israeli soldiers could die on this scale. The Israeli army of song and legend had been brought low. So, too, the reaction when the symbols of America's pride and power were struck. The vile, if small, Palestinian "celebrations" were a symptom of this, albeit unrepresentative. They matched the "bomb Baghdad into the Dark Ages" rhetoric we heard from the American public a decade ago. In the Middle East, Arabs now fear America will strike them without waiting for proof, or act on the most flimsy of evidence. For it is as well to remember how the US responded to the 1983 Marine bombings. The battleship USS New Jersey fired its automobile-sized shells into the Chouf Mountains, killing a couple of Syrian soldiers and erasing half a village. The arrival of US naval craft off the American East Coast yesterday was a ghostly replay of this impotent event. But to this day, the Americans have never discovered the identity of the man who drove a truck-load of explosives into the Beirut Marine compound. That was in another country, in another time. Today's suicide bombers are a different breed. Nurtured in whatever despair or misery or perhaps even privilege, in 2001, the suicide bomber came of age. From baptista at pccf.net Fri Sep 14 17:46:23 2001 From: baptista at pccf.net (!Dr. Joe Baptista) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 20:46:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: David Stern's "News alert" re: Israel and the Terror???? (fwd) Message-ID: Source: Direct Submission Organizatio: Media Monitors Network (MMN) Email: mckhan at ureach.com Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 10:45:01 -0400 Title: David Stern's "News alert" TEXT: ----------------------------- >> WITH NO COMMENTS << ----------------------------- Date Thu, 13 Sept 2001 6:59:42am Email: "David Stern" Sent-To: faisal at ummah.com, palestine-info at palestine-info.net, newsdesk at MiddleEastWire.com, irna at irna.com, webmaster at muslimedia.com, ContactUs at MediaMonitors.net Subj: News alert NEWS EMBARGO AFTER ISRAELI LINK LEAK Stern-Intel (Canada). A US military intelligence source revealed details of an internal intelligence memo that points to the Israeli Mossad intelligence service having links to the World Trade Center and Pentagon attacks. The intelligence source, who requested his name be withheld, confirmed the internal US intelligence memo circulated four weeks ago described information that pointed to the threat of a covert Israeli operation on US soil to turn mass public opinion against Palestinian Arabs via an apparent terrorist attack on US interests that would give Israel the green light to implement a large scale military onslaught against the Palestinian Arab population. The 11 September attack has been described by experts as being too sophisticated for a lone terrorist group to execute. This attack required a high level of military precision and the resources of an advanced intelligence agency. In addition, the attackers would have needed to be extremely familiar with both air force one flight operations, civil airline flight paths and aerial assault tactics on sensitive US cities like Washington, Stated David Stern an expert on Israeli intelligence operations. The attacks targeted the Pentagon, World Trade Center towers, with the white house and air force also being targets according to the FBI. The attacks have certainly turned US public opinion firmly back in Israel's favor after 11 months of Palestinian uprising, heavy criticism of Israel over war crimes allegations and racism by a UN conference in Durban. The attacks serve no Arab group or nations interests but their timing came in the midst of international condemnation of Israel for its policy of death squad assassination of Palestinian political and police figures, added Stern. If verified, the news of Israels involvement in the US attack will come as no surprise to intelligence experts. The state of Israel has a long history of covert operations against Western targets with attacks on the King David Hotel, USS Liberty, murder of a Scandinavian UN envoy as well as espionage against the US during the Jonathan Pollard case. On Wednesday the US defense department issued a warning to its officials to halt the leak of information on the investigation which it says is happening on a daily basis since the attacks occurred. _______________________________________________ Contentalert mailing list Contentalert at mediamonitors.net http://mediamonitors.net/mailman/listinfo/contentalert_mediamonitors.net From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Fri Sep 14 20:58:20 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 20:58:20 -0700 Subject: Imagining the Next War: Infrastructural Warfare and the Conditions of Democracy Message-ID: <200109150358.f8F3wKd98096@mailserver1.hushmail.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 2661 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at ssz.com Fri Sep 14 19:08:47 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 21:08:47 -0500 Subject: Slashdot | Net Taps Without Warrants? Message-ID: <3BA2B82F.A1604FA3@ssz.com> http://slashdot.org/yro/01/09/14/211241.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From shamrock at cypherpunks.to Fri Sep 14 21:31:42 2001 From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 21:31:42 -0700 Subject: "bespectacled, nerdly remailer operators" In-Reply-To: <77841944190d427bffc4e119f1d14dbb@remailer.privacy.at> Message-ID: Anon wrote: On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Nomen Nescio wrote: > Right, ninja troops carrying away bespectacled, nerdly remailer > operators. Here's a better fantasy. They'll hire $1000/night > superhookers and seduce the remailer operators into giving up their > keys. Both have about equal chances of reality. Pictures of three of these bespectacled, nerdly remailer operators: [Excellent pictures of Cypherpunks lawfully exercising their constitutional duties elided]. I would like to use this opportunity to again encourage any Cypherpunks so inclined to please sign the photo on my attached PGP key. 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Iranian deportee phoned warnings Message-ID: <3BA2BEB5.991D805@ssz.com> http://www.drudgereport.com/flash3.htm -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Fri Sep 14 19:37:29 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 21:37:29 -0500 Subject: Feds: Atlanta May Have Been Target Message-ID: <3BA2BEE9.64B2AA52@ssz.com> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20010914/aponline182531_000.htm -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Fri Sep 14 19:41:44 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 21:41:44 -0500 Subject: Beyond Government by Harry Reid (List of global libertarian/free market organizations) Message-ID: <3BA2BFE8.CA526FE0@ssz.com> http://www.atlantic.net/~dwatney/reid/reid55.htm -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From baptista at pccf.net Fri Sep 14 18:46:29 2001 From: baptista at pccf.net (baptista at pccf.net) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 21:46:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: On Internet and social responsibility In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Vadim - I think in american we call it free speech. The content of the message is not the issue - it is the right to publish it and one's opinion which is the issue here guranteed by the U.S. constitution. regards joe On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Vadim Antonov wrote: > > > Found on a website hosted in US by a US service provider: > > > Manpower resources of > > Muslims and powerful ideological stimulus of resistance, the > > control above the basic power resources of the world, the > > geographical position and an area of movement, finally will > > destroy USA. War will come in the house of each American. > ******************************************************** > > > And it already will be the collapse of that America, which we > > know and which is realized by Americans. The first disturbing > > symptoms of arising enmity and split of America already is > > available. > > This is from the inverview with the spokesman of well-known terrorist > Shamil Basaev, known for personally taking hostage hundreds of patients in > a hospital, among other things (the spokesman is Movladi Udugov, the guy > who threatened to drop an airplane on Kremlin). > > http://www.kavkaz.org/english/news/2001/09/14/news4.htm > > Hosted by XO Communications - do not bother them, i already alerted their > staff. > > Guys, why should a North American provider give a place for this > propaganda? Call FBI, have them trace the connections of whoever pays for > that site. > > [If you decide to read the entire article - the "so-called peacemaker" > Boris Nemtsov mentioned there is a prominent pro-Western politican in > Russia, and (used to be, changed his mind after WTC attack) a leading > proponent of negotiations with Chechen militants. A shining illustration > of what you get for trying to negotiate with terrorists.] > > Please, if you host websites, take a closer look at what you are hosting; > you may help to find leads for the investigation. > > --vadim > -- The dot.GOD Registry, Limited http://www.dot-god.com/ From onlywinners at THEGOLFLEDGER.ROI1.NET Fri Sep 14 18:58:31 2001 From: onlywinners at THEGOLFLEDGER.ROI1.NET (Onlywinners) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 21:58:31 -0400 Subject: Up to $80.00 Free Money Bonus on Every Deposit! Message-ID: <200109150209.f8F29oc16066@ak47.algebra.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 10886 bytes Desc: not available URL: From onlywinners at THEGOLFLEDGER.ROI1.NET Fri Sep 14 18:58:31 2001 From: onlywinners at THEGOLFLEDGER.ROI1.NET (Onlywinners) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 21:58:31 -0400 Subject: Up to $80.00 Free Money Bonus on Every Deposit! Message-ID: <200109150348.UAA06835@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 10886 bytes Desc: not available URL: From anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org Fri Sep 14 20:08:00 2001 From: anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org (Incognito Innominatus) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 22:08:00 -0500 (CDT) Subject: "bespectacled, nerdly remailer operators" Message-ID: <9d22e0176100ebcc26a221a521e41b7d@mixmaster.nullify.org> > > Right, ninja troops carrying away bespectacled, nerdly remailer > > operators. Here's a better fantasy. They'll hire $1000/night > > superhookers and seduce the remailer operators into giving up their > > keys. Both have about equal chances of reality. > > Pictures of three of these bespectacled, nerdly remailer operators: > > http://www.melontraffickers.com/pics/DC8_Lucky_BDU_4.jpg > http://www.melontraffickers.com/pics/rabbiGoneNuts.jpeg > http://www.melontraffickers.com/pics/DC8_noise_and_Lucky_hauling_hardware.jpg Well, there are some spectacles in evidence... but the guns don't exactly fit the nerd image, do they. About the hot babe... would that be one of those $1000/night hookers? Maybe Plan B is operational after all. > Clearly individuals are enemies of the state. Expect the pictures above to > be broadcast and rebroadcast on the evening news after the SWAT teams > eliminate this threat to the sheeple. Expect similar photos of other > remailer operators, Photoshop touch-ups used liberally if required. Just post them to remops, Declan will take care of the distribution... From nobody at dizum.com Fri Sep 14 13:10:28 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 22:10:28 +0200 (CEST) Subject: The Winds of War Message-ID: <0bea17e36a87842121b2cda0536a1994@dizum.com> Tim May, a notoriously bad prognosticator (remember the "Thanksgiving Surprise"?) writes: > Here's what I expect will happen in the coming weeks: > > * a massive military attack on Afghanistan and possibly "rebel bases" in > many parts of the Mideast Yes, most people expect this. > * a series of hastily-passed new laws restricting communications (with > remailers targeted specifically because they by their nature are not in > "compliance" with CALEA) Very unlikely as far as the remailers. It looks like there may be some proposals for crypto limitations, but it will be a hard fight. Every interested party who fought last time will be dusting off their old arguments. Cryptographers like Matt Blaze and others have already made their intentions clear on the crypto mailing list. > * on the day the war begins, next week or in the weeks thereafter, a > series of raids on those operating remailers, those who have identified > these repressive measures, and those who have spoken against the > American Jihad or who have publically opined that the WTC bombing > resembles the Reichstag Fire Absolutely not. Completely absurd. You must have forgotten to take your anti paranoia pills again. As for the Reichstag Fire, for the history impaired this was an attack secretly engineered by the Nazis to give them an excuse to seize power. The implication is that the United States government arranged for the WTC attack! Only someone in the grips of clinical paranoia could make such a suggestion. Tim May is really losing it now. > * these raids will be done in the usual pre-dawn, ninja-clad storm > trooper way: flash-bangs, shoot anything that appears to move, put the > perps _down_! Right, ninja troops carrying away bespectacled, nerdly remailer operators. Here's a better fantasy. They'll hire $1000/night superhookers and seduce the remailer operators into giving up their keys. Both have about equal chances of reality. If the government really does care about remailers, chances are Carnivore is already more than up to the task. Cryptographic analyses have shown many times how weak the current remailer network is. See below for a list of attacks on remailers from the guys at Zero-Knowledge. Add in the ability to penetrate systems and steal their keys and the remailer network provides far from terrorist-grade security. Far better for the spooks to leave the network running and provide the illusion of security in the hopes that criminals will trust it. If they take it down they'll just drive the terrorists further underground. > * many of those arrested in the raids may not actually be prosecuted, as > even pliable courts will find little or no constitutional basis for > prosecution, though some fraction will die while "resisting arrest" (a > few highly-publicized "barricade situations," a la Waco, should help > with the terror campaign) The United States government has no interest in killing remailer operators! Please try to keep some semblance of a grip on reality. > * those not arrested, shut down, kicked off their ISPs, or killed will > be driven underground, or, in most cases, will "promise not to do it > again" and will meekly become the Carnivore Administrators for their > systems See above, there are better solutions to remailers from the point of view of law enforcement. Yes, Carnivore may be part of the plan, but there's no reason for the remailer operator to know about it. > * Robb London and Jeff Gordon and their ilk will be promoted to new > positions within the National Unity Government and will be asked to > detail their successful prosecutions of notorious cypherpunk terrrorists Even as fantasy, this is deteriorating... > * Congress will hold endless hearings reminiscent of the House > Un-American Activities Committee hearings. Activists and crypto > advocates will receive subpoenas. The media, even the newly-fascist tech > media, will villify them. Starring... Tim May, of course. It is sad that this once brilliant mind has been reduced by isolation and bitterness into constructing these paranoid fantasies. > * Someday, perhaps in 20 years, wiser heads will realize that shredding > the Constitution in support of some Zionists who pushed Arabs (called > "sand niggers") off of their lands was not a good idea. There are already many voices warning against weakening the Constitution. You won't have to wait 20 years for sanity to prevail. > War is coming. Against us, against liberty, against the Constitution. War is coming, against Afghanistan and other Arab organizations. On that part you were right. The rest of it is just your paranoid ravings. > If I stop posting in the coming weeks, you'll know why. Because you'll be embarrassed to have been proven wrong once again? === A few kinds of remailer attacks: Brute Force Attack Node Flushing Attack (aka Spam Attack) Timing Attack Communication Pattern Attack Packet Counting Attack Intersection Attack Denial of Service Attack User Reaction Attack Sting Attack Distinguished Message Attack Message Delaying Attack Message Tagging Attack From avg at exigengroup.com Fri Sep 14 23:05:57 2001 From: avg at exigengroup.com (Vadim Antonov) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 23:05:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: On Internet and social responsibility In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Joe -- I'm not calling in question their right to publish; what i'm saying that this crap was going on for years, and nobody cared. BTW, if you look at the First Ammendment protections closer, they are not guaranteeing absolute right of free speech. Learn the American law before you invoke it to defend your point of view. I'm tired of absolutists who cannot see that there's no such thing as absolute good or absolute evil. Speech can be very dangerous. This is a conflict of ideologies, not nations or religions. What do you think is ideology - if not speech? How do you suppress ideology if you let it spread unhampered? Violence is bad? Vote for dissolution of police, if you _really_ mean that. But don't take the "my hands is clean" high moral ground. It is _your_ guilt, too, for being lazy to learn what is going on, and failing to elect a goverment with a clue, not the bumbling idiot with a Texan accent and vocabulary of a fifteen-years-old. That site was spreading lies for a long time and is well-known in Russia as an example of American hypocrisy. I was reminded of it when i looked at today's very sarcastic piece by one poplular TV commentator (Mike Solovyev, the anchor of "Odnako" ("But..") prime-time daily show watched by a hundred million people). [Transcript follows] ...Besides, Shamil Basaev is not only a cannibal, but also a very keen politologist making in his cave precise analysis of political situation.