From cats69 at 123india.com Mon Oct 1 04:57:07 2001 From: cats69 at 123india.com (cats69 at 123india.com) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 16:57:07 -1900 Subject: People are saving big money25835 Message-ID: <000050c10cdf$0000367a$00002bf5@inbound.123india.com.criticalpath.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2948 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bill.stewart at pobox.com Mon Oct 1 01:02:31 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 01:02:31 -0700 Subject: Larry Ellison wants National ID Card database In-Reply-To: <200110010503.AAA22257@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011001005229.031f2100@idiom.com> Somebody on the list, promoting a total boycott of Oracle, quoted Larry Ellison as saying: >"We need a database behind that, so when you're walking into an airport >and you say that you are Larry Ellison, you take that card and put it >in a reader and you put your thumb down and that system confirms that >this is Larry Ellison" We need a database that knows, when you walk into an airport and say you're Larry Ellison, whether to take the big orange boot off your private jet's wheels that's there because you keep violating the quiet-hour curfew at San Jose airport And it needs to do this at every airport in the country so that, if your flight plan gets you into San Jose too late at night, they won't let you take off, even if you have caught up on your fines. From yourchoice_1 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 1 02:20:17 2001 From: yourchoice_1 at yahoo.com (yourchoice_1 at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 02:20:17 Subject: Just keep reading.................................You will know............Trust me Message-ID: <291.265841.428103@your choice> Dear Future Millionaire: > >I'll make you a promise. READ THIS E-MAIL TO THE END! - follow what >it >says to the letter - and you will not worry whether a RECESSION is >coming >or not, who is President, or whether you keep your current job or >not. Yes, I know >what you are thinking. I never responded to one of these before >either. One day >though, something just said "you throw away $25.00 going to a movie >for 2 >hours with your wife". "What the heck." Believe me, no matter where >you believe >"those feelings" come from, I thank goodness every day that I had >that feeling. >I cannot imagine where I would be or what I would be doing had I >not. Read >on. It's true. Every word of it. It is legal. I checked. Simply >because >you are buying and selling something of value. Well take some time and read on. YOU PUT A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT AND VERY LITTLE MONEY YOU CAN DO IT. TRUST ME. WELL GOOD LUCK AND BE RICH. > >AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV: > >Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your home. > >THANK'S TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET ! >================================================== >BE AN INTERNET MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!! > >Before you say ''Bull'', please read the following. This is the >letter >you have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the >popularity of >this letter on the Internet, a national weekly news program recently >devoted >an entire show to the investigation of this program described below, >to see if it >really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or >not the >program was legal. > >Their findings proved once and for all that there are ''absolutely >NO >Laws prohibiting the participation in the program and if people can >"follow >the simple instruction" they are bound to make some mega bucks with >only >$25 out of pocket cost''. >DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS >PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER. > >This is what one had to say: '' Thanks to this profitable >opportunity". I >was approached many times before but each time I passed on it. I am >so glad >I finally joined just to see what one could expect in return for the >minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received a >total $ >610,470.00 in 21 weeks, with money still coming in''. Pam Hedland, >Fort >Lee, New Jersey. >================================================== >Another said: "this program has been around for a long time but I >never >believed in it. But one day when I received this again in the mail I >decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the simple instructions >and >walaa ..... 3 weeks later the money started to come in. First month >I only made $240.00 >but the next 2 months after that I made a total of $290,000.00. So >far, in the >past 8 months by re-entering the program, I have made over >$710,000.00 and I am >playing it again. The key to success in this program is to follow >the simple steps >and NOT change anything.'' More testimonials later but first, >======= > >==== PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE ==== >$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ > >If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months >easily >and comfortably, please read the following...THEN READ IT AGAIN and >AGAIN >!!! > >$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ > >FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS >WILL COME TRUE, GUARANTEED! > >INSTRUCTIONS: > >=====Order all 5 reports shown on the list below ===== > >For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU >ARE ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name >appears >ON THAT LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON >YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems. > >===WHEN YOU PLACE YOUR ORDER, MAKE SURE === >===YOU ORDER EACH OF THE 5 REPORTS! === >You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your >computer >and resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5 = $25.00. > >Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the 5 >reports >Save them on your computer so >they will >be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will >order them >from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it on your >desk in case >something happens to your computer. > >IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next >to >each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than >what is >instructed below in step '' 1 through 6 '' or you will loose out on >the >majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, >you will also see how >it does not work if you change it. Remember, this method has been >tested, and >if you alter it, it will NOT work !!! People have tried to put their >friends/relatives names on all five thinking they could get all the >money. >But it does not work this way. Believe us, some have tried to be >greedy and then nothing >happened. So Do Not try to change anything other than what is >instructed. >Because if you do, it will not work for you. Remember, honesty reaps >the reward!!! >This IS a legitimate BUSINESS. You are offering a product for sale >and getting paid >for it. Treat it as such and you will be VERY profitable in a short >period of time. > >1.. After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement >and >REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This person >has >made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune. > >2..Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5. > >3.. Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4. > >4.. Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3. > >5.. Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2 > >6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. > >PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! This is >critical to YOUR success. > >================================================== >**** Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and >save >it on your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. > >Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose any data. To >assist >you with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you >purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing information >which >includes how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands >of free classified >ads and much more. There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture >going: > >METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY >================================================== > >Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, >and we >will assume You and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each. >Let's also assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% (2/10 of 1%) >response (the response could be much better but lets just say it is >only 0.2%). Also many >people will send out hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only >5,000 each). >Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. > >With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for report # 1. Those >10 >people responded by sending out 5,000 e-mail each for a total of >50,000. >Out of >those 50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders. That's=100 >people >responded and ordered Report # 2. > >Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500,000 >e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report # 3. > >Those 1000 people send 5,000 e-mail each for a total of 5 million >e-mail sent out. The 0.2% response is 10,000 orders for Report # 4. > >Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of >50,000,000 >(50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders >for >Report # 5. > >THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH = $500,000.00 (half a million >dollars). > >Your total income in this example is: 1..... $50 + 2..... $500 + >3..... >$5,000 + 4..... $50,000 + 5.... $500,000 .... Grand >Total=$555,550.00 > >NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE OUT THE >WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU >WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY! >================================================== > >REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF >5,000 YOU MAILED TO. Dare to think for a moment what would happen if >everyone or half or even one 4th of those people mailed 100,000 >e-mails each or more? >There are over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide and >counting, with >thousands more coming on line every day. Believe me, many people >will do just that, >and more! > >METHOD # 2: BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET >================================================== > >Advertising on the net is very, very inexpensive and there are >hundreds >of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the >Internet will >easily get a larger response. We strongly suggest you start with >Method # 1 >and add METHOD #2 as you go along. For every $5 you receive, all you >must do is >e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it. Always provide same >day service on all orders. > >This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name >and >address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until >they >receive the report. > >===========AVAILABLE REPORTS ==================== >The reason for the "cash" is not because this is illegal or somehow >"wrong". It is simply about time. Time for checks or credit cards to >be >cleared or approved, etc. Concealing it is simply so no one can SEE >there is money in >the envelope and steal it before it gets to you. > >ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: Always send $5 >cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT accepted. Make sure >the >cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper. On >one of those >sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are >ordering, YOUR >E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address. > >PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW : >================================================== > >REPORT # 1: The Insider's Guide To Sending Bulk Email On The Net > >Order Report # 1 from: > >Bege John >P.O.Box 28313 >Sharjah- United Arab Emirates >________________________________________________________________ _ > >REPORT # 2: Secret To Multilevel Marketing On The Net > >Order Report # 2 from : > > >C. Tang >33 French Masts Lane >Bedford, Nova Scotia B4A 3W7 >canada > > >______________________________________________________ > >REPORT# 3: 'The Insider's Guide To Advertising for Free On The Net > >Order Report #3 from > >Scott Katip >3110 5th Ave >Beaver Falls, Pa 15010 > >________________________________________________________ >REPORT # 4: How To Become A Millionaire Using MLM & The Net > >Order Report # 4 from: > >Chris Rhodes >7915 Kledingreen >Spring, Texas 77379 >_______________________________________________________ > >REPORT #5: How To Send Out One Million Emails For Free > >Order Report # 5 From: > >Zach Simmons >2135 Springwood >Carrollton, TX 75006 > > >_____________________________________________________ >$$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$ > >Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: > >=== If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2 >weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do. > >=== After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you >should >receive 100 orders or more for REPORT # 2. If you did not, continue >advertising or sending e-mails until you do. > >**Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU CAN >RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash >will >continue >to roll in ! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is >moved >down on the list, you are placed in front of a Different report. > >You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people >are >ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER >BATCH OF E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO >LIMIT >to the income you can generate from this business !!! >================================================= >FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: You have >just received information that can give you financial freedom for >the rest >of your >life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make >more money >in the next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. Follow >the program >EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any way. It works >exceedingly well as it >is now. > >Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put >your >name and address in Report #1 and moved others to #2 .....# 5 as >instructed >above. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 >ormore >e-mails and your name will be on every one of them. Remember though, >the more you >send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, >I have given you >the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become >financially >independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW ! >=============MORE TESTIMONIALS=============== >'' My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an >accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good >money. >When I received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving >''junk >mail''. I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the >population and >percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work. Jody totally >ignored my >supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in with both >feet. I made >merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old ''I told you so'' >on her >when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 >weeks she had >received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received >total $ 147,200.00 >......... all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jodyin her >''hobby''. >Mitchell Wolf M.D., Chicago, Illinois >================================================ >'' Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up >my >mind to participate in this plan. But conservative as I am, I >decided that >the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that >I wouldn't >get enough orders to at least get my money back''. '' I was >surprised when I >found my medium size post office box crammed with orders. I made >$319,210.00 in >the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that it does >not >matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment >with a faster return >and so big''. Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada >================================================= >'' I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I >wondered >if I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to >contact to >get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by >someone >else.........11 months passed then it luckily came again...... I did >not >delete this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all >the >money came within 22 weeks''. Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y. >================================================= >'' It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money >with >little cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully and >within 10 days the money started to come in. My first month I made $ >20, >560.00 and by the end of third month my total cash count was $ >362,840.00. Life is >beautiful, Thanx to internet''. Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand >================================================= > >ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO >FINANCIAL >FREEDOM ! >If you have any questions regarding this great deal please write me >at >juggla007 at ziplip.com >If you wish to be removed from the mailing list please send an email >to >sweetthingsz at ziplip.com with the word REMOVE in the subject line. >================================================= >If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact >the >Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade >Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C. > >================================================= > >ONE TIME MAILING, NO NEED TO REMOVE > >================================================= > >This message is sent in compliance of the proposed bill SECTION 301, >paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618. Further transmission to you by the >sender >of this email may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply >to: >sweetthings at ziplip.com with the word REMOVE in the subject line. >This message is not >intended for residents in the State of Washington, screening of >addresses has been done to the best of our technical ability. From bill at scannell.org Mon Oct 1 01:00:11 2001 From: bill at scannell.org (Bill Scannell) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 03:00:11 -0500 Subject: AL Digital Acquires Second Nuclear Bunker Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 2476 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mycasinobuilder at mail.com Mon Oct 1 04:59:21 2001 From: mycasinobuilder at mail.com (MyCasinoBuilder.com) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 06:59:21 -0500 Subject: revolutionary casino software Message-ID: <200110011159.f91BxGm27390@ak47.algebra.com> OWN YOUR VERY OWN CASINO AND SPORTSBOOK! - NO PROGRAMMING skills necessary! - OPEN for business 24 hours per day - NO INVESTMENT required! - CUSTOM BRANDED website design! - Offer over 20 extremely popular and exciting games including: Blackjack Bacarrat Craps Roulette Pai Gow Slots ...and much more "...Internet Gambling is by far the fastest growing and most profitable business on the Internet today!" according to Steve Wynn, CEO of Mirage Resorts. With our state-of-the-art, easy to use software, you can now build your own Internet gambling website instantly and start capitalizing on a multi-bullion dollar industry which is still in its relative infancy. Unlike conventional dot com businesses, online gambling is a fast-growing, cash-rich business. Just imagine if you captured a fraction of 1% of the bets placed online. As the number of internet users increases exponentially, so will the amounts wagered online. The time to establish an online presence is now, before the next big surge in internet growth. You will receive 50% of all net winnings - the highest commission payout in the online gambling industry! You can expect to earn $3,000 - 5,000 plus a week! Best of all, this is 100% LEGAL. Don't believe it? Check out the web site http://www.MyCasinoBuilder.com for more details. ####################################################################### We strongly oppose the use of SPAM email and do not want anyone who does not wish to receive our mailings to receive them. As a result, we have retained the services of an independent 3rd party to administer our list management and remove list (www.removeyou.com). This is not SPAM. If you do not wish to receive further mailings, please click below and enter your email at the bottom of the page. You may then rest-assured that you will never receive another email from us again. http//www.removeyou.com The 21st Century Solution. I.D. # 032950 ####################################################################### From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Oct 1 05:28:56 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 07:28:56 -0500 Subject: NYPOST.COM World News: DATA POURING IN FASTER THAN NSA CAN DECIPHER IT By GREG SEIGLE Message-ID: <3BB86188.DCCEE26A@ssz.com> http://www.nypost.com/news/worldnews/5334.htm -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion. Edmund Burke (1784) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From honig at sprynet.com Mon Oct 1 08:25:08 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 08:25:08 -0700 Subject: [FREE] stratfor (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20010930153054.E15576@navel.introspect> References: <3BB77C69.3080504@dragonsweb.org> <20010930111702.E27978@cluebot.com> <3BB77C69.3080504@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011001082508.009307d0@pop.sprynet.com> At 03:30 PM 9/30/01 -0700, Karsten M. Self wrote: >I have to admit being somewhat confused myself over just what >distinctions there are between a formal declaration, and a vote of >support such as we saw following the 9/11 attacks. I believe a formal >declaration would entail far more Presidential support and powers, >resources for the military, including likely more sweeping restrictions >on civil liberties. Yes. Though these days they have Emergency Powers for everything, and chronic, continually extended 'Emergencies'. ...... We have always been at war with Oceania. From bob at black.org Mon Oct 1 08:34:53 2001 From: bob at black.org (Subcommander Bob) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 08:34:53 -0700 Subject: America needs therapy Message-ID: <3BB88D1D.DF760106@black.org> At 03:48 PM 9/30/01 -0700, Steve Schear wrote: >and you know that junkies will do whatever it takes to get >their next fix. Hey, you should have seen what California was paying for hits of natural gas early in the summer... As long as you get a reliable, clean supply you can be healthy & productive (like the founder of John's Hopkins, a medical morphine addict). America just needs to get a better supplier than those flaky arabs who are always having violent family spats. ---- 'for, while it may only be a cynic who questions the benign intent of their current rulers, it would surely be a fool who believed that such benevolence is assured in the future. From bob at black.org Mon Oct 1 08:37:30 2001 From: bob at black.org (Subcommander Bob) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 08:37:30 -0700 Subject: [FREE] stratfor (fwd) Message-ID: <3BB88DBA.13359D51@black.org> At 04:08 PM 9/30/01 -0700, Karsten M. Self wrote: >> >> This is IMHO naive. Have you ever been in a brawl? > >Have you ever been in a brawl where one side (or both) has friends? > Balkans, just before WWI. Poison gas followed that one (too). From pcw at flyzone.com Mon Oct 1 06:02:10 2001 From: pcw at flyzone.com (Peter Wayner) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 09:02:10 -0400 Subject: Baltimore Digital Commerce Society-- Korhammer on Lava Trading, Nov 6 Message-ID: <200110011303.f91D34T12154@robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net> This event was originally scheduled for October 2nd, but it is being pushed back to November 6th because Lava Trading used to be located on the 83rd floor of the WTC. Richard Korhammer's office was only 50 feet away from where the plane hit. Miraculously all of the company survived. Korhammer was across the street with a client during the entire event. But please come to listen to hear about their company not about the WTC. They're almost back on-line after having their entire office destroyed. These guys are building a very cool, cross-exchange tool. It constantly keeps track of the bids and asks on a number of exchanges letting you send your business to where the prices are best. It's fascinating to watch the screen update the quotes in real time. This kind of semi-automated, trading assistance is bound to become more and more prevalent. I think Lava Trading is doing some of the most interesting stuff around. -Peter Baltimore Digital Commerce Society Tuesday November 6, 12:30 Speaker: Richard Korhammer, CEO of Lava Trading (www.lavatrading.com) Topic: Networks as Markets-- Why Exchanges are Becoming Virtual Richard Korhammer is the CEO of LavaTrading, one of the startup companies in New York diving into cross-market arbitrage. Their network links together all of the important market makers in ECNs and keeps track of all bids and offers. Buyers and sellers using the technology automatically get pointers to the best price possible. Traders with large blocks of stock do substantially better because Lava Trading will break up their block to match it with the best price available across all of the markets. This cross-market arbitrage improves liquidity for the market and makes it simpler for traders with large blocks of stock to wade into the marketplace without leaving a wake. In his talk, Korhammer will explore how fast networking and sophisticated servers can supplement and potentially replace the old fashioned stock exchange. Traders won't need to come to one place or one exchange to search for the best price because the network can constantly sort through all buyers and sellers. Korhammer believes that adding intelligence to the network and the servers supporting is more efficient than requiring traders to manually manage an otherwise complicated marketplace. Will these cross-exchange tools supplant the exchange? Will they eventually become the exchange? Will the disintermediation eventually make all trading a transparent event? Location: 11 West Mount Vernon Place, Baltimore, MD Directions: The Engineering Society lies in the shadow of Baltimore's Washington monument in the center of town. From downtown, take Charles St north to the monument. The Society is to the left on Monument Street. From the north, take 83 south to Maryland Avenue exit. Follow Maryland Avenue south until Monument Street. The Society is to the left. Or look at this map: http://maps.yahoo.com/py/maps.py?BFCat=&Pyt=Tmap&newFL=Use+Address+Below&add r=11+Mount+Vernon+Place&csz=Baltimore%2C+MD+21201&country=us&Get%07Map=Get+M ap Cost: $14 for a lunch buffet Questions: pcw at flyzone.com Write me (pcw at flyzone.com) to tell me if you're coming. Reservations are required. From jya at pipeline.com Mon Oct 1 09:53:38 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 09:53:38 -0700 Subject: Baltimore Digital Commerce Society-- Korhammer on Lava Trading, Nov 6 In-Reply-To: <200110011303.f91D34T12154@robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200110011400.KAA04940@barry.mail.mindspring.net> Peter Wayner wrote: >But please come to listen to hear about their company not about the >WTC. But when do we hear about the really important stuff the company employees learned from 80 feet away, to hell with hearing more online trivia of phonexing the ashes. Not that the lucky CEO knows any of that stupefying experience first hand. Can he offer anything up to date or should another company rep with hands on do the gripping show and tell. !!Rebuild New York NOT!! From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Mon Oct 1 07:55:34 2001 From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 09:55:34 -0500 Subject: America needs therapy References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010930154543.039883b8@pop3.lvcm.com> <20011001101300.B9594@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <3BB883D8.D3D95072@cybershamanix.com> Declan McCullagh wrote: > Until Sep. 11, at least, we may have adopted a cost-benefit > approach. Non-oil fuels are far more expensive, Not true at all. Biodiesel is being marketed in the US today at competitive prices, and obviously, like anything else, economies of scale would bring down that price. Ethanol is another one. Brazil run a large portion of it's vehicles on ethanol. Besides which, the true cost of gasoline at the pump would be $10-15 @ gallon without all the gov't subsidies to the oil industry. http://www.icta.org/projects/trans/rlprexsm.htm -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 Home 920-233-5820 hseaver at cybershamanix.com http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html From declan at well.com Mon Oct 1 07:07:11 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 10:07:11 -0400 Subject: [FREE] stratfor (fwd) In-Reply-To: <3BB77C69.3080504@dragonsweb.org>; from jbdigriz@dragonsweb.org on Sun, Sep 30, 2001 at 04:11:21PM -0400 References: <20010930111702.E27978@cluebot.com> <3BB77C69.3080504@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <20011001100711.A9594@cluebot.com> On Sun, Sep 30, 2001 at 04:11:21PM -0400, James B. DiGriz wrote: > What I find interesting is how we can have a war without a Congressional > declaration, which out of practical if not legal necessity requires > something at least approximating a foreign power as the enemy. It would > be extremely helpful if there were some overt state action or at least a > smoking gun to publicly identify such party. Call me unusually hawkish, but I don't see why that's necessary. Let's say our fleet was attacked at Pearl Harbor 60 years ago -- but by an enemy who did not paint his flag on his aircraft. Congress could, and should, declare war on an unidentified enemy. I admit the situation is not as clear here, since generally only nationstates can raise air armadas and non-nationstate organizations could have trained the Hijacking 19, but perhaps the parallels are nevertheless sufficient. Think of it as an "unidentified co-conspirator" approach. -Declan From declan at well.com Mon Oct 1 07:13:00 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 10:13:00 -0400 Subject: America needs therapy In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010930154543.039883b8@pop3.lvcm.com>; from schear@lvcm.com on Sun, Sep 30, 2001 at 03:48:39PM -0700 References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010930154543.039883b8@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <20011001101300.B9594@cluebot.com> Until Sep. 11, at least, we may have adopted a cost-benefit approach. Non-oil fuels are far more expensive, and more radical approaches like wiring homes for solar would be quite intrusive and also expensive. So perhaps (note I'm not saying our politicos were actually this smart or that this is good foreign policy) the thinking was that by interfering in the middle east, which has a high cost, the benefits of cheap oil justified it. -Declan On Sun, Sep 30, 2001 at 03:48:39PM -0700, Steve Schear wrote: > Its angering how much lip service though little progress has been made > since 1973 on freeing America from her chemical dependence on petroleum in > general and mid-east oil specifically. If the U.S. had no direct economic > interests in the mid-east would it be propping up the governments of > Israel, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, or contending with Iran and Iraq, etc? > More likely our response to problems in the area would be similar to our > involvement in West Africa. This dependance has made us little more than > oil junkies and you know that junkies will do whatever it takes to get > their next fix. If America wants to break this cycle of state violence and > co-dependency it needs to get energy therapy in a hurry. > > steve From pcw2 at flyzone.com Mon Oct 1 07:42:28 2001 From: pcw2 at flyzone.com (Peter Wayner) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 10:42:28 -0400 Subject: Baltimore Digital Commerce Society-- Korhammer on Lava Trading, Nov 6 In-Reply-To: <200110011400.KAA04940@barry.mail.mindspring.net> References: <200110011400.KAA04940@barry.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: At 9:53 AM -0700 10/1/01, John Young wrote: >Peter Wayner wrote: > >>But please come to listen to hear about their company not about the >>WTC. > >But when do we hear about the really important stuff the company >employees learned from 80 feet away, to hell with hearing more >online trivia of phonexing the ashes. Not that the lucky CEO knows >any of that stupefying experience first hand. Can he offer anything >up to date or should another company rep with hands on do the >gripping show and tell. Gads, I suppose he can repeat a few stories about Sept. 11th, but the main focus will be on cross-exchange arbitrage. It's not exactly a cypherpunk topic, but certainly one that might interest the libertarian believers in the power of markets. -Peter From tcmay at got.net Mon Oct 1 10:53:54 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 10:53:54 -0700 Subject: State of Perpetual Emergency In-Reply-To: <20011001133823.A14433@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <475B8210-B695-11D5-B8A4-0050E439C473@got.net> On Monday, October 1, 2001, at 10:38 AM, Declan McCullagh wrote: > On Mon, Oct 01, 2001 at 08:25:08AM -0700, David Honig wrote: >> Yes. Though these days they have Emergency Powers for everything, >> and chronic, continually extended 'Emergencies'. > > I've always enjoyed the regular declarations of emergencies required > to keep the encryption export control regime active. > > If an emergency exists for decades, can it still be properly called one? Lincoln began the process with his emergency decrees, including his suspension of habeus corpus. (Basically, folks could be jailed without the state producing strong evidence of a crime.) (I expect today's Emergency Orderers are sifting through all such decrees to see what they can crib.) --Tim May From tcmay at got.net Mon Oct 1 11:05:06 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 11:05:06 -0700 Subject: Lesson from WTC: Question Authority In-Reply-To: <200110011400.KAA04940@barry.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: On Monday, October 1, 2001, at 09:53 AM, John Young wrote: > Peter Wayner wrote: > >> But please come to listen to hear about their company not about the >> WTC. > > But when do we hear about the really important stuff the company > employees learned from 80 feet away, to hell with hearing more > online trivia of phonexing the ashes. Not that the lucky CEO knows > any of that stupefying experience first hand. Can he offer anything > up to date or should another company rep with hands on do the > gripping show and tell. > There have been a couple of very interesting eyewitness, close-at-hand reports that I have seen. One was a long report from a survivor from around the 50th floor, posted in misc.survivalism. Another, which few of you have probably seen, was from a UCSC graduate who had just started in a clerical job at Morgan Stanley Dean Witter. This was the cover story for one of our Santa Cruz weekly freebie papers. This guy's story of escape pretty much matched the above story. In both cases, something leapt out at me: The "authorities" (the voice over the building PA system) were advising employees not to panic, to return to their desks, to await orderly evacuation orders. When he heard/saw the first impact, his supervisor said they should "not panic" and should await further orders. As he was quoted in the newspaper, his view was "Fuck it, I'm OUTTA HERE." He headed down the stairwell. The other survivor reported much the same story. Those who stayed behind, or who returned to their offices, or who turned around in the stairwell and headed back up, most of them probably are now human smoked puree in the rubble. The moral: look out for yourself, and maybe a few others, friends or even strangers. But don't trust "authority"--trusting the soothing voices over the PA got a lot of people killed. --Tim May From ericm at lne.com Mon Oct 1 11:05:27 2001 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 11:05:27 -0700 Subject: America needs therapy In-Reply-To: <3BB883D8.D3D95072@cybershamanix.com>; from hseaver@cybershamanix.com on Mon, Oct 01, 2001 at 09:55:34AM -0500 References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010930154543.039883b8@pop3.lvcm.com> <20011001101300.B9594@cluebot.com> <3BB883D8.D3D95072@cybershamanix.com> Message-ID: <20011001110527.A9852@slack.lne.com> On Mon, Oct 01, 2001 at 09:55:34AM -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote: > Besides which, the true cost of gasoline at the pump would be > $10-15 @ gallon without all the gov't subsidies to the oil industry. > > http://www.icta.org/projects/trans/rlprexsm.htm The study says $5.60 to $15.14, not $10-15. A quick glance find some glaring errors-- -it completely ignores taxes paid by the oil industry. -under Environmental Health and social costs they count: "noise pollution ($6 to $12 billion), and improper disposal of batteries, tires, engine fluids, and junked cars ($4.4 billion) also add to the environmental consequences wrought by automobiles." It's quite a stretch to claim those as costs of oil. We'd have significant costs for those kind of items even if we all used electric cars or even horse and buggy. Although I suppose that unlike a car's engine, when your horse fails, you can eat it. Eric From auto301094 at hushmail.com Mon Oct 1 11:10:20 2001 From: auto301094 at hushmail.com (auto301094 at hushmail.com) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 11:10:20 -0700 Subject: \"Trust In Government Surges During Crisis\" Message-ID: <200110011810.f91IAKl86961@mailserver1.hushmail.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 4363 bytes Desc: not available URL: From honig at sprynet.com Mon Oct 1 11:11:30 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 11:11:30 -0700 Subject: America needs therapy In-Reply-To: <20011001113341.A11641@cluebot.com> References: <3BB883D8.D3D95072@cybershamanix.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20010930154543.039883b8@pop3.lvcm.com> <20011001101300.B9594@cluebot.com> <3BB883D8.D3D95072@cybershamanix.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011001111130.00943d80@pop.sprynet.com> At 11:33 AM 10/1/01 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: > >As for ethanol, which you cite, if it's so splendid an alternative, one >would think that ADM could survive without such lavish corporate welfare. > >http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa241es.html You shouldn't hold pork-politics against a technology. Ethanol *is* a great fuel from a number of angles, but it *is* (currently) more expensive than petrol. There are a number of fuel sources like that, just waiting to become desirable if/when petrol prices rise. (Modulo the inertia of conversion costs and distribution problems.) dh From bob at black.org Mon Oct 1 11:17:23 2001 From: bob at black.org (Subcommander Bob) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 11:17:23 -0700 Subject: Operation Lingering Pain (Re: [FREE] stratfor (fwd)) Message-ID: <3BB8B333.C6BB8C19@black.org> >> On Mon, Oct 01, 2001 at 08:25:08AM -0700, David Honig wrote: >> > Yes. Though these days they have Emergency Powers for everything, >> > and chronic, continually extended 'Emergencies'. >> >> I've always enjoyed the regular declarations of emergencies required >> to keep the encryption export control regime active. >> >> If an emergency exists for decades, can it still be properly called one? > >I guess so, if it's still "emerging." A difficult birth, perhaps. Heh, if labor takes too long you go in for a Caesarian. Damn, those Romans showing up again... Maybe that's what they mean by a "surgical strike"... ------- Bluffs will be published if comical but otherwise ignored. -JY From honig at sprynet.com Mon Oct 1 11:21:14 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 11:21:14 -0700 Subject: America needs therapy In-Reply-To: <20011001110527.A9852@slack.lne.com> References: <3BB883D8.D3D95072@cybershamanix.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20010930154543.039883b8@pop3.lvcm.com> <20011001101300.B9594@cluebot.com> <3BB883D8.D3D95072@cybershamanix.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011001112114.0094bc10@pop.sprynet.com> At 11:05 AM 10/1/01 -0700, Eric Murray wrote: >or even horse and buggy. Although I suppose that unlike >a car's engine, when your horse fails, you can eat it. Not in California. Can't even sell it to Euros who like it. .... "My religion doesn't let me eat sushi at the beach" --JimB From declan at well.com Mon Oct 1 08:33:41 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 11:33:41 -0400 Subject: America needs therapy In-Reply-To: <3BB883D8.D3D95072@cybershamanix.com>; from hseaver@cybershamanix.com on Mon, Oct 01, 2001 at 09:55:34AM -0500 References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010930154543.039883b8@pop3.lvcm.com> <20011001101300.B9594@cluebot.com> <3BB883D8.D3D95072@cybershamanix.com> Message-ID: <20011001113341.A11641@cluebot.com> On Mon, Oct 01, 2001 at 09:55:34AM -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote: > Besides which, the true cost of gasoline at the pump would be > $10-15 @ gallon without all the gov't subsidies to the oil industry. I think this canard has been debunked on the list in the last week. The current cost (say, US$1.50 a gallon) would probably be closer to half that without taxes on each step of the process. As for ethanol, which you cite, if it's so splendid an alternative, one would think that ADM could survive without such lavish corporate welfare. http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa241es.html Thanks to federal protection of the domestic sugar industry, ethanol subsidies, subsidized grain exports, and various other programs, ADM has cost the American economy billions of dollars since 1980 and has indirectly cost Americans tens of billions of dollars in higher prices and higher taxes over that same period. At least 43 percent of ADM's annual profits are from products heavily subsidized or protected by the American government. -Declan From auto301094 at hushmail.com Mon Oct 1 04:48:10 2001 From: auto301094 at hushmail.com (auto301094 at hushmail.com) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 11:48:10 +0000 Subject: National Emergency Technology Guard (NET Guard) proposal Message-ID: <200110011148.f91BmA152199@mailserver1.hushmail.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 4387 bytes Desc: not available URL: From georgemw at speakeasy.net Mon Oct 1 11:57:18 2001 From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 11:57:18 -0700 Subject: America needs therapy In-Reply-To: <20011001110527.A9852@slack.lne.com> References: <3BB883D8.D3D95072@cybershamanix.com>; from hseaver@cybershamanix.com on Mon, Oct 01, 2001 at 09:55:34AM -0500 Message-ID: <3BB85A1E.3315.AD1488B@localhost> On 1 Oct 2001, at 11:05, Eric Murray wrote: > On Mon, Oct 01, 2001 at 09:55:34AM -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote: > > Besides which, the true cost of gasoline at the pump would be > > $10-15 @ gallon without all the gov't subsidies to the oil industry. > > > > http://www.icta.org/projects/trans/rlprexsm.htm > > The study says $5.60 to $15.14, not $10-15. > > > A quick glance find some glaring errors-- > > -it completely ignores taxes paid by the oil industry. > > -under Environmental Health and social costs they count: > "noise pollution ($6 to $12 billion), and improper disposal of batteries, > tires, engine fluids, and junked cars ($4.4 billion) also add to the > environmental consequences wrought by automobiles." > > It's quite a stretch to claim those as costs of oil. We'd have > significant costs for those kind of items even if we all used electric cars > or even horse and buggy. Although I suppose that unlike > a car's engine, when your horse fails, you can eat it. Not to mention things like "travel delays due to road congestion ($46.5 to $174.6 billion)," which not only would still exist with electric cars, but is a cost ALREADY paid by automobile users. To call something like that a "hidden subsidy of the oil industry" should be enough to get this "study" rejected by a reesponsible reviewer. George > > > Eric From mmotyka at lsil.com Mon Oct 1 12:01:40 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 12:01:40 -0700 Subject: America needs therapy Message-ID: <3BB8BD94.5468293E@lsil.com> >"James B. DiGriz" wrote : > Declan's note about ADM hogs at the trough with lots of other hogs... > >A far more productive application of corporate welfare would be if that >money were spent on engineering research and development of >geosynchronous solar power microwave relays, fusion and advanced fission >reactors, permanent manned statons on the Moon, Mars, asteroids, etc. >The planet and its politics would likely be a lot cleaner. Just one >beneficial side effect. > Just wait until some orbiting uwave controller goes bonserk and boils a slice of America from DC to San Franciso. Oops. How about picking some of the low-hanging fruit first? Start with greed and waste and work your way up to the Buck Rogers stuff. After all, if we can't get the simple shit right what hope is there that we can handle anything that requires brains and responsibility? >If govts. didn't insist on scarfing up so much in taxes and thwarting >markets at the behest of vested interests, private parties probably >would already be doing most of this by now. > >But what else is new? > >jbdigriz > Until there is a crisis nothing will be done. It will require widely accepted evidence of a problem ( read : widespread domestic starvation ) before action will be taken and then the only parties in a position to take that action will be those same private parties ( the dreaded vested interests ) that you complain about. I think that our technology is one of our greatest strengths and our faith in that technology is one of our greatest weaknesses. We avoid basic remedies in the hopes that techology will offer some sort of ultimate cure that will not inconvenience us one bit and the net result is that we raise the stakes unnecessarily. Am I wrong or doesn't there seem to be an implicit assumption in our *SOVSUV-mad rush to consume petroleum that technology has the solution to a shortage just about ready to roll when the need arises? Myself, I highly doubt it in spite of Bush's reassuring words that "there are no limits" to what technology can accomplish. Sorry, I don't commute to work in an F350 King Cab Dualie, Mike ( pessimistic techie and closet Luddite ) *SOV - Single Occupancy Vehicle as opposed to HOV SOV is not my own - thanks to DB in Madison. From kmself at ix.netcom.com Mon Oct 1 12:09:25 2001 From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 12:09:25 -0700 Subject: [FREE] stratfor (fwd) In-Reply-To: <3BB88DBA.13359D51@black.org>; from bob@black.org on Mon, Oct 01, 2001 at 08:37:30AM -0700 References: <3BB88DBA.13359D51@black.org> Message-ID: <20011001120925.M30576@navel.introspect> on Mon, Oct 01, 2001 at 08:37:30AM -0700, Subcommander Bob (bob at black.org) wrote: > At 04:08 PM 9/30/01 -0700, Karsten M. Self wrote: > >> > >> This is IMHO naive. Have you ever been in a brawl? > > > >Have you ever been in a brawl where one side (or both) has friends? > > Balkans, just before WWI. Poison gas followed that one (too). ...let's look at the bright side. Afghanistan isn't a Balkan state.... Peace. -- Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/ Land of the free Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature] From creditrepair137 at hgfqtllw.runbox.com Mon Oct 1 13:17:50 2001 From: creditrepair137 at hgfqtllw.runbox.com (creditrepair137 at hgfqtllw.runbox.com) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 12:17:50 -0800 Subject: 82000+ Totally Uncensored Newsgroups -hrmvpvpmi Message-ID: <626emd6sml3bl64.734o5v47742b5j52t@3pnl5p.alynk.com> Uncensored Newsgroup Access We carry over 82,000 groups Over 1 million new pics, videos, programs and warez posted dailly Nothing censored, Totally Anonymous http://www.quasistupid.org/usenet/index.html?marketing_id=nf44 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Click here to be removed! http://www.quasistupid.org/remove.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1551 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mmotyka at lsil.com Mon Oct 1 12:20:18 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 12:20:18 -0700 Subject: Lesson from WTC: Question Authority Message-ID: <3BB8C1F2.57F9B39B@lsil.com> On 9-11 I was awake at 5:30 AM PST reading the paper and watching CNN. Predictably I was glued to the news until past noon. When I finally made it into work I was here about an hour or two when I was told that someone had phoned in a bomb threat. The official advice from the PD was essentially "you can stay in the building if you want to." I stayed just long enough to let everyone know. The consensus was exactly this - "fuck it, we're outta here." I couldn't think of a single reason to take a chance even if it was most likely just some goofball over at the insurance company who felt he should have the day off like everyone in the WTC. I think everyone is so used to a nice, safe, cushy existence that crises are not recognized and urgency is seen as foolish. Mike From kmself at ix.netcom.com Mon Oct 1 12:32:52 2001 From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 12:32:52 -0700 Subject: America needs therapy In-Reply-To: <3BB85A1E.3315.AD1488B@localhost>; from georgemw@speakeasy.net on Mon, Oct 01, 2001 at 11:57:18AM -0700 References: <3BB883D8.D3D95072@cybershamanix.com>; <20011001110527.A9852@slack.lne.com> <3BB85A1E.3315.AD1488B@localhost> Message-ID: <20011001123251.N30576@navel.introspect> on Mon, Oct 01, 2001 at 11:57:18AM -0700, georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net) wrote: > On 1 Oct 2001, at 11:05, Eric Murray wrote: > Not to mention things like "travel delays due to road congestion > ($46.5 to $174.6 billion)," which not only would still exist with > electric cars, but is a cost ALREADY paid by automobile users. To > call something like that a "hidden subsidy of the oil industry" should > be enough to get this "study" rejected by a reesponsible reviewer. Electric vehicles are far more efficient idlers than ICE vehicles. Idling is essentially paying the oil companies for the privilege of sitting still. It's not an inconsequential cost. Other congestion costs are not as attributable to oil, but direct combustion is. Peace. -- Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/ Land of the free Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature] From tolan at citipages.net Mon Oct 1 04:44:37 2001 From: tolan at citipages.net (Tolan Blundell) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 12:44:37 +0100 Subject: New UK anti-terrorism powers to be rushed through. In-Reply-To: <200110010911.EAA23593@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: The UK gov't is trying to push through new anti terrorism measures, including id cards, indefinite detention of suspected terrorists, and there's more talk of key escrow too.. from the Gaurdian : http://politics.guardian.co.uk/labour2001/story/0,1414,561052,00.html [snip] Concerns about the effect on civil liberties of at least three pieces of anti-terrorism legislation, which ministers promise to introduce in four to six weeks, were raised. A cross-party alliance, supported by sacked Home Office minister, Mike O'Brien, has already been formed to resist the introduction of identity cards. New powers being introduced will include faster powers of deportation and extradition and an end to the mandatory obligation to consider asylum applications from known supporters of terrorism. [snip] -Tolan. From creditmaster7022 at lnkoldsx.Flashmail.com.toad.com Mon Oct 1 14:05:07 2001 From: creditmaster7022 at lnkoldsx.Flashmail.com.toad.com (creditmaster7022 at lnkoldsx.Flashmail.com.toad.com) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 13:05:07 -0800 Subject: 82000+ Totally Uncensored Newsgroups -frrgxiv Message-ID: <0c4jqu6.5f7sdb@8bjtwm.ucs.unimelb> Uncensored Newsgroup Access We carry over 82,000 groups Over 1 million new pics, videos, programs and warez posted dailly Nothing censored, Totally Anonymous http://www.quasistupid.org/usenet/index.html?marketing_id=nf44 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Click here to be removed! http://www.quasistupid.org/remove.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1551 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Mon Oct 1 11:17:46 2001 From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 13:17:46 -0500 Subject: America needs therapy References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010930154543.039883b8@pop3.lvcm.com> <20011001101300.B9594@cluebot.com> <3BB883D8.D3D95072@cybershamanix.com> <20011001113341.A11641@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <3BB8B32A.57A65D44@cybershamanix.com> Declan McCullagh wrote: > > I think this canard has been debunked on the list in the last week. No, it wasn't debunked at all -- no evidence was given, only unsupported suppositions. If you only take one subsidy alone, the military cost, oil has an absurd price, and that cost is rapidly going thru the roof. > US Defense Department spending allocated > to safeguard the world's petroleum resources total some $55 to $96.3 > billion per year. The Strategic Petroleum Reserve, a federal government > entity designed to supplement regular oil supplies in the event of > disruptions due to military conflict or natural disaster, costs taxpayers an > additional $5.7 billion per year. The Coast Guard and the Department of > Transportation's Maritime Administration provide other protection services > totaling $566.3 million per year > > > > The current cost (say, US$1.50 a gallon) would probably be closer to half > that without taxes on each step of the process. http://www.icta.org/projects/trans/rlprexsm.htm > >> The federal government provides the oil industry with numerous tax >> breaks designed to ensure that domestic companies can compete with >> international producers and that gasoline remains cheap for American >> consumers. Federal tax breaks that directly benefit oil companies include: >> the Percentage Depletion Allowance (a subsidy of $784 million to $1 >> billion per year), the Nonconventional Fuel Production Credit ($769 to >> $900 million), immediate expensing of exploration and development costs >> ($200 to $255 million), the Enhanced Oil Recovery Credit ($26.3 to $100 >> million), foreign tax credits ($1.11 to $3.4 billion), foreign income deferrals >> ($183 to $318 million), and accelerated depreciation allowances ($1.0 to >> $4.5 billion). >> >> Tax subsidies do not end at the federal level. The fact that most state >> income taxes are based on oil firms' deflated federal tax bill results in >> undertaxation of $125 to $323 million per year. Many states also impose >> fuel taxes that are lower than regular sales taxes, amounting to a subsidy of >> $4.8 billion per year to gasoline retailers and users. New rules under the >> Taxpayer Relief Act of 1997 are likely to provide the petroleum industry >> with additional tax subsidies of $2.07 billion per year. In total, annual tax >> breaks that support gasoline production and use amount to $9.1 to $17.8 >> billion. >> > As for ethanol, which you cite, if it's so splendid an alternative, one > would think that ADM could survive without such lavish corporate welfare. Biodiesel is a much better alternative than ethanol, but each has it's place. All farming is subsidized at this point, biofuels have the potential to make farming profitable again. Besides, as long as the oil industry has even greater corporate welfae payments, why not? Speaking of program subsidy, how about this: > Government support of US petroleum producers does not end with tax > breaks. Program subsidies that support the extraction, production, and use > of petroleum and petroleum fuel products total $38 to $114.6 billion each > year. The largest portion of this total is federal, state, and local > governments' $36 to $112 billion worth of spending on the transportation > infrastructure, such as the construction, maintenance, and repair of roads > and bridges. Other program subsidies include funding of research and > development ($200 to $220 million), export financing subsidies ($308.5 to > $311.9 million), support from the Army Corps of Engineers ($253.2 to > $270 million), the Department of Interior's Oil Resources Management > Programs ($97 to $227 million), and government expenditures on > regulatory oversight, pollution cleanup, and liability costs ($1.1 to $1.6 > billion). > -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 Home 920-233-5820 hseaver at cybershamanix.com http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html From tcmay at got.net Mon Oct 1 13:24:29 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 13:24:29 -0700 Subject: Just Say "So?" Message-ID: <5130A6F4-B6AA-11D5-B8A4-0050E439C473@got.net> When confronted with calls to "Do something!" or "We can't just stand by and watch!," I think of one word: "So?" "If we don't intervene in Yakistan, the Pothurden minority will be brutalized!" "So?" "If we don't subsidize the production of ethanol, it will not succeed." "So?" "If we as a nation don't launch a major effort to land a man on Mars, it won't happen!" "So?" "We need to rebuild the World Trade Center, else America will have been defeated by the terrorists." "So?" "If we don't do something about online porn, it will get worse." "So?" Asking "So?" is a powerful antidote to what frequently crops up as a kind of debating error. (It may even have some Latin name, but I don't know it.) This error can be summarized as: Assumes a solution is required. Implies that there is some problem which must be resolved, which agreement must be reached on. Thus, we must solve the problem in Yakistan, or the problem of ethanol cost, or Mars colonization, online porn, etc. Asking "So?" says succinctly that the problem posed is not accepted as a problem which needs collective (or taxpayer-funded) solving. It also causes the other party, at least in some cases, to step back and attempt to explain why the "ethanol problem" or the "pornography problem" needs to be solved, instead of simply assuming it's a problem requiring collective solving with the only argument being how best to solve it. I find it refreshing to think this way. I believe I first heard this point of view articulated in this simple form by Chip Morningstar, but it certainly is consistent with the libertarian points of view of Harry Browne, P.J. O'Rourke, and others. Just Say "So?" From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Mon Oct 1 11:25:24 2001 From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 13:25:24 -0500 Subject: America needs therapy References: Message-ID: <3BB8B4F4.B048214E@cybershamanix.com> Eugene Leitl wrote: > On Mon, 1 Oct 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote: > > > Not true at all. Biodiesel is being marketed in the US today at > > competitive prices, and obviously, like anything else, economies of > > scale would bring down that price. Ethanol is another one. Brazil run > > Biodiesel and bioethanol are horribly inefficient as far as conversion of > solar energy and agricultural area is concerned. Large scale agriculture > is not exactly environmentally neutral. They're extreme niche or gimmick > fuels at best. Where do you get that from? Are you saying that farmers aren't growing canola oil at a profit? Farmers are also growing corn and that corn is turned into ethanol at a profit. http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol.html > Ethanol is a highly efficient fuel. A study by > the Institute of Local Self-Reliance in the > US found that using the best farming and > production methods, "the amount of energy > contained in a gallon of ethanol is more than > twice the energy used to grow the corn and > convert it to ethanol". > > The US Department of Agriculture says > each BTU (British Thermal Unit, an energy > measure) used to produce a BTU of > gasoline could be used to produce 8 BTUs > of ethanol. > > The non-profit American Coalition for > Ethanol says ethanol production is > "extremely energy efficient", with a positive > energy balance of 125%, compared to 85% > for gasoline, making ethanol production "by > far the most efficient method of producing > liquid transportation fuels". > > If you are refering to the paper done by Pimental, that study was seriously flawed (so much so that one might think it was paid for by big oil) and thoroughly debunked. See: http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_energy.html -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 Home 920-233-5820 hseaver at cybershamanix.com http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Mon Oct 1 10:25:48 2001 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 13:25:48 -0400 Subject: America needs therapy References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010930154543.039883b8@pop3.lvcm.com> <20011001101300.B9594@cluebot.com> <3BB883D8.D3D95072@cybershamanix.com> <20011001113341.A11641@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <3BB8A71C.50308@dragonsweb.org> Declan McCullagh wrote: > On Mon, Oct 01, 2001 at 09:55:34AM -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote: > >> Besides which, the true cost of gasoline at the pump would be >>$10-15 @ gallon without all the gov't subsidies to the oil industry. >> > > I think this canard has been debunked on the list in the last week. > > The current cost (say, US$1.50 a gallon) would probably be closer to half > that without taxes on each step of the process. > > As for ethanol, which you cite, if it's so splendid an alternative, one > would think that ADM could survive without such lavish corporate welfare. > > http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa241es.html > Thanks to federal > protection of the domestic sugar industry, ethanol subsidies, > subsidized grain exports, and various other programs, ADM has > cost the American economy billions of dollars since 1980 and > has indirectly cost Americans tens of billions of dollars in > higher prices and higher taxes over that same period. At > least 43 percent of ADM's annual profits are from products > heavily subsidized or protected by the American government. > > -Declan > > > A far more productive application of corporate welfare would be if that money were spent on engineering research and development of geosynchronous solar power microwave relays, fusion and advanced fission reactors, permanent manned statons on the Moon, Mars, asteroids, etc. The planet and its politics would likely be a lot cleaner. Just one beneficial side effect. If govts. didn't insist on scarfing up so much in taxes and thwarting markets at the behest of vested interests, private parties probably would already be doing most of this by now. But what else is new? jbdigriz From tcmay at got.net Mon Oct 1 13:29:19 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 13:29:19 -0700 Subject: America needs aromatherapy In-Reply-To: <20011001123251.N30576@navel.introspect> Message-ID: On Monday, October 1, 2001, at 12:32 PM, Karsten M. Self wrote: > on Mon, Oct 01, 2001 at 11:57:18AM -0700, georgemw at speakeasy.net > (georgemw at speakeasy.net) wrote: >> On 1 Oct 2001, at 11:05, Eric Murray wrote: > >> Not to mention things like "travel delays due to road congestion >> ($46.5 to $174.6 billion)," which not only would still exist with >> electric cars, but is a cost ALREADY paid by automobile users. To >> call something like that a "hidden subsidy of the oil industry" should >> be enough to get this "study" rejected by a reesponsible reviewer. > > Electric vehicles are far more efficient idlers than ICE vehicles. > > Idling is essentially paying the oil companies for the privilege of > sitting still. It's not an inconsequential cost. > > Other congestion costs are not as attributable to oil, but direct > combustion is. > If people don't want to pay this "cost" of idling then they won't. But it's not in any sense of the word a "hidden subsidy." Calling various costs "hidden subsidies" does a disservice to the language. --Tim May From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Mon Oct 1 11:36:35 2001 From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 13:36:35 -0500 Subject: America needs therapy References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010930154543.039883b8@pop3.lvcm.com> <20011001101300.B9594@cluebot.com> <3BB883D8.D3D95072@cybershamanix.com> <20011001110527.A9852@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: <3BB8B793.4BE405B5@cybershamanix.com> Eric Murray wrote: > On Mon, Oct 01, 2001 at 09:55:34AM -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote: > > Besides which, the true cost of gasoline at the pump would be > > $10-15 @ gallon without all the gov't subsidies to the oil industry. > > > > http://www.icta.org/projects/trans/rlprexsm.htm > > The study says $5.60 to $15.14, not $10-15. > Sorry, other studies say $10. > > A quick glance find some glaring errors-- > > -it completely ignores taxes paid by the oil industry. No, it points out that they are not taxed at nearly as high a rate, that's part of the subsidy. > > > -under Environmental Health and social costs they count: > "noise pollution ($6 to $12 billion), and improper disposal of batteries, > tires, engine fluids, and junked cars ($4.4 billion) also add to the > environmental consequences wrought by automobiles." > > It's quite a stretch to claim those as costs of oil. We'd have > significant costs for those kind of items even if we all used electric cars > or even horse and buggy. Although I suppose that unlike > a car's engine, when your horse fails, you can eat it. > True - but most of their points are pretty damning. Let's get rid of all those that *are* direct subsidies and see where the true cost of gas is -- I'll bet close to $10. -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 Home 920-233-5820 hseaver at cybershamanix.com http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html From declan at well.com Mon Oct 1 10:38:23 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 13:38:23 -0400 Subject: [FREE] stratfor (fwd) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011001082508.009307d0@pop.sprynet.com>; from honig@sprynet.com on Mon, Oct 01, 2001 at 08:25:08AM -0700 References: <3BB77C69.3080504@dragonsweb.org> <20010930111702.E27978@cluebot.com> <3BB77C69.3080504@dragonsweb.org> <20010930153054.E15576@navel.introspect> <3.0.6.32.20011001082508.009307d0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <20011001133823.A14433@cluebot.com> On Mon, Oct 01, 2001 at 08:25:08AM -0700, David Honig wrote: > Yes. Though these days they have Emergency Powers for everything, > and chronic, continually extended 'Emergencies'. I've always enjoyed the regular declarations of emergencies required to keep the encryption export control regime active. If an emergency exists for decades, can it still be properly called one? -Declan From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu Mon Oct 1 10:41:54 2001 From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 13:41:54 -0400 Subject: [FREE] stratfor (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20011001133823.A14433@cluebot.com> References: <3BB77C69.3080504@dragonsweb.org> <20010930111702.E27978@cluebot.com> <3BB77C69.3080504@dragonsweb.org> <20010930153054.E15576@navel.introspect> <3.0.6.32.20011001082508.009307d0@pop.sprynet.com> <20011001133823.A14433@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20011001134154.A22296@ils.unc.edu> On Mon, Oct 01, 2001 at 01:38:23PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: > > On Mon, Oct 01, 2001 at 08:25:08AM -0700, David Honig wrote: > > Yes. Though these days they have Emergency Powers for everything, > > and chronic, continually extended 'Emergencies'. > > I've always enjoyed the regular declarations of emergencies required > to keep the encryption export control regime active. > > If an emergency exists for decades, can it still be properly called one? I guess so, if it's still "emerging." A difficult birth, perhaps. -- gbn From hakkin at sarin.com Mon Oct 1 13:47:00 2001 From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 13:47:00 -0700 Subject: Brinworld: citizens with speed-radar Message-ID: <3BB8D644.CDA317AE@sarin.com> http://web.star-telegram.com/content/fortworth/2001/10/01/arlnews/fw010408-1001-XB001-speeders.htm ARLINGTON - Alice Pelfrey has taken aim at speeders in her neighborhood, and her efforts have really slowed them down. Armed with a police radar gun and a clipboard, Pelfrey and other Plaza Heights Citizens on Patrol members have been tracking violators as part of an Arlington Police Department pilot program designed to reduce speeding violations in neighborhoods. "As long as we were doing it, they were slowed down and they stayed slowed down for a while," Pelfrey said. "If we keep it up, they're going to get the idea that we're set up and that somebody is going to be watching." The East Arlington Police Station test program involving Plaza Heights, Colonial Estates and Valley View Citizens on Patrol groups ended this month. Modeled after an Arlington County, Va., program, resident groups are loaned radar guns and trained to log the speeds and license plate numbers of violators in their neighborhoods. The data helps the Police Department determine where more patrol officers or speed limit signs are needed, Lt. Carolyn Allen said. The program is expected to become citywide next year, she said. "The citizens have told us their concerns about traffic and speeding," Allen said. "This is a way for them to get involved in their own neighborhoods and do something about it." The groups, clearly identified as speed monitors with signs and jackets, set up in areas approved by the department. The information collected is turned in to the Police Department, which then mails warning letters to those caught stating the speed, date and location of the violations. During the six neighborhood monitoring operations, the department notified 125 people. "More than likely, once they get a letter they're going to think twice about coming down this street speeding because they're not going to know whether we're there or not," Pelfrey said. Although violators in the test program received only warnings, Allen said she plans to station plainclothes police officers with the groups so that speeding violators can be stopped and issued citations. According to collected data, the average speed in 30 mph zones ranged from 35.5 to 46 mph. In the 35 mph zones, the average speed was about 43 mph. The highest speed, clocked by Colonial Estates East Citizens on Patrol group, was 62 mph in a 30 mph zone. "People came up and said they were really glad to see us," said Linda White, a Colonial Estates group coordinator. "In the beginning, we expected people to be negative, and that really hasn't happened." Pelfrey said her group only had one negative experience - when a person drove by and gave members an obscene hand gesture. But most of the feedback was positive, she said. "We had a lot of people in the neighborhood that waved and honked their horn," Pelfrey said. "A lot of people said 'Go for it. Set up in our yard if you want to.' " From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Mon Oct 1 06:00:28 2001 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 14:00:28 +0100 Subject: [FREE] stratfor (fwd) References: <200109301338.f8UDcJc28399@mailserver1.hushmail.com> <3BB794E6.4030903@dragonsweb.org> <20010930152541.D15576@navel.introspect> Message-ID: <3BB868EC.270FD317@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> "Karsten M. Self" wrote: > There are stateless nations (e.g.: > Palestine), and states which are host to people of several nations > (e.g.: the Swiss Federation). In fact it is the normal condition. China, India, Russia, Indonesia, Iran, and even our very own UK. All put together, well over half the population of the world. From tboyle at rosehill.net Mon Oct 1 14:07:29 2001 From: tboyle at rosehill.net (Todd Boyle) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 14:07:29 -0700 Subject: Cringely on PBS: electronic money Message-ID: And now this, http://www.pbs.org/whatson/previews/index.html http://www.pbs.org/cringely/ Electric Money 3,184 Words About Bob's New Show, Which Airs Next Week By Robert X. Cringely This may be the first time in history that the names J.P. Morgan and Max Levchin have been used in the same sentence. On the surface, the two men don't seem to have much in common. Morgan died in 1913. Levchin was born in 1975. Morgan was an American-born financier, scion of an international banking family and stalwart of the Episcopal Church. Levchin is a Ukrainian-born computer programmer, a Jew who immigrated to Chicago with his parents when he was 16 years old. Morgan was one of the world's great art collectors. Levchin's art collection, at the moment I am writing this, consists of a couple posters and an electric wall clock that has plastic sushi in place of numbers. Yet J.P. Morgan and Max Levchin stand like bookends around the story I will be trying to tell next week in my new show, "Electric Money," which is supposed to air generally around 9 p.m. on October 3rd. Check your local listings. If, like me, you have only satellite TV, the show plays on October 4th. From its founding in 1871 until the death of its founder in 1913, J.P. Morgan & Co. came to dominate investment banking in America. This was a time of little regulation or taxation, a time of dramatic booms and busts, and a time when the center of the financial world was moved from London to New York. Morgan did that. He financed America's railroads, its steel industry, its electric and telephone industries. Twice -- in 1895 and 1907 -- Morgan interceded to stabilize the U.S. financial markets at times when the federal government was powerless to do so. At the time of his death, he was without question the world's most powerful financier. Behind his diffident nature and enormous nose, Morgan was an intuitive risk taker and a natural mathematician -- a man who made the right moves generally because they felt right, not because of any empirical understanding of the situation. Morgan was the leader because he knew where and how to lead. Though many of his tactics would be illegal today, they weren't at the time he used them, and they built much of the world that we know today. Americans do things like that. They build slap-dash empires, then consolidate them by outlawing both the slap and the dash, closing the door behind them. Morgan was a master of three terms that will recur over and over in this show -- information, liquidity, and security. His moves were based on information carefully gathered by agents around the world. Nobody knew was happening in business and government better than J.P. Morgan. He had quick access to funds -- at first from Europe and later in the U.S. -- to finance his deals. Morgan was far from the richest man in America, but he could raise more money more quickly than any financier of his time. That's liquidity, and it came to Morgan primarily because of his reputation. People trusted him with their money. And in exchange for all those funds, he issued a variety of securities that defined ownership in the deal, and gave investors a way to diversify or bail out if need be. Morgan's leadership of the financial community was a benevolent despotism. He used brutal financial force where necessary, but his goal was always steady growth and a minimum of bloodshed. This was a technique that built the U.S. from an agrarian former colony to an industrial giant in only 40 years. Then, only a few months before his death at age 75, testifying before a Senate committee, Morgan made what would appear to be a surprising statement. "It will never do," he testified, "to say that unchecked power is a good thing because it is in the hands of good men." Why did he say that? Surely this man, who created the financial oligarchy that was so successful building industrial America, would defend the methods of that oligarchy. Or was he an old rake, gone repentant in the twilight of his career? Or maybe he was a narcissist, determined that nobody who followed would do the job of minding the money half so well? The truth lies behind door number three. By 1913, the U.S. financial model was too complex to be managed by even a J.P. Morgan. Soon it would be too complex to even comprehend. This is, after all, a show about information technology, about computers, and the truth of the matter is that for several decades, a somewhat successful model of the U.S. economy was held in the computer that was J.P. Morgan's brain. Following some algorithm that not even he understood, he processed the information, made the decisions, and doled out the liquidity as needed, all without missing his annual archaeology trip to Egypt. Morgan was a human neural net. He was successful because the times and the model were simple, and because people with money came to trust him. But there are limits to such neural nets, and J.P, Morgan instinctively knew that. From 1913 on, there ceased to be any concerted attempt to control the economy as the dictatorial influence of a Morgan was replaced by government organizations that could only hope to influence or guide. The engine of finance lost its engineer, replacing him with a conductor. And that's how it was for 80 years. Jump to Palo Alto, California, in the present day. Max Levchin, both guns blazing, was killing people left and right while Max Levchin's PR man rolled his eyes. We were in the lunchroom at X.com, and Max was playing a shoot 'em up arcade game called Area 51. Max loves Area 51. He is very good at it, standing calmly, blowing to bits anything thrown at him, his eyes half closed as in a homicidal trance. "What are people going to think?" groaned the PR man. "People trust us with their money here. When people think of money, they think of banks built of marble and cherry wood, not Max Levchin in parachute pants killing people." Funny, I hadn't noticed the parachute pants, but it was a good detail. And Max Levchin killed on. It's hard to think of him as the founder of the next CitiCorp, but that's what I believe he is. Levchin's invention is PayPal, the quintessential Internet money site that makes its living by enabling anyone to send money electronically to anyone else. With PayPal, liquidity is universal and transactions are instantaneous. This temporal jump from J.P. Morgan to Max Levchin has seen the financial world cycle from one with concentrated power and almost no regulatory control, through a 75-year period of rigorous regulatory control, to today's relaxed climate of deregulation. PayPal isn't even a bank, yet it does bank-like things. And PayPal can make a profit on a 10-cent transaction -- something J.P. Morgan couldn't do even with 1913 pennies. We know what led to the decline of the financial oligarchy and the rise or regulation. It was increasing complexity, a financial world that was too complicated to predict, much less control. So the best that could be hoped for was to prevent abuse and try to keep people from hurting themselves. That was then. The world Gross Domestic Product in 1900 was approximately $1.1 trillion, which was a lot to even hope to manage. Today's world GDP stands at $41.06 trillion (both figures are in 1990 dollars), which is a lot more, but if you are getting my drift, is a number that maybe isn't so daunting after all. We are starting to understand this economy of ours in ways we never could before, and the way we do that is through information technology. That's where I come in. Money is in the middle of a revolution. Technology is the cause. In the last 30 years, computers have changed money more profoundly than at any other time in history. This revolution is transforming the way we live and work. Today, with a stroke on a keyboard, a swipe of a card, or a touch of a mouse, money can be created, dissolved, spent, invested, or transferred across the world, without ever materializing into something you can touch or handle. Money is literally being turned from coins and paper into electronic bits. Computers have made finance a near-instantaneous business based more on statistics than on the firm handshake of a borrower and lender. Vast quantities of money now sweep around the world, searching for the quickest return, turning our global economies into roller-coasters and our financial system into a casino. The result: Economies from Asia to Latin America have been subverted, traditional institutions utterly transformed and the financial world turned on its head. How did this come about? What are the underlying principles and forces? Where are they taking us? Have we gained anything along the way? This story is not so much about business or government or even economics as it is about information, which is exactly (and almost the only reason) why I am qualified to write it. The economic history of the latter half of the 20th century is nearly all about information technology, only the experts don't realize it. And the underlying trend of information expansion is the greatest social and economic force going, yet our leaders not only don't understand it, they don't control it, either. Out of Bretton Woods, New Hampshire, in 1944 came the shape of a new world economic order. The soon-to-be-victorious Allied powers settled on new institutions for world lending -- the World Bank and International Monetary Fund -- intended to promote growth, liberalism, and financial stability all on the premise that the price of gold would somehow never budge from $35 per ounce. Those institutions survive today, yet the world of money is so different. Where there were banks and brokers and customers, and those customers had passbooks or stock certificates, today there are banks and brokers and funds and partnerships and a thousand incarnations of debt and equity, none of which would be even recognizable to your mother or mine back in 1944. Where back then, it was hard to send a telegram overseas, today we send our money -- sometimes all our money -- in a flash halfway around the world. Our attention and our money go where the returns are highest and the risk seems lowest, no matter where that is. And what make it all possible are computers. Computers at the time of Bretton Woods were used to break German codes and calculate artillery trajectories, and that was about it. Today the world's largest stock market -- NASDAQ -- exists entirely inside a single computer and not anywhere in the physical world. Today, most of the world's investment decisions (in terms of total share volume) are made by computers. Today, the worth and financial reliability of any individual (even you!) is quantified and analyzed and available for instant purchase online. Credit cards, home mortgages, mutual funds and every other investment vehicle short of lending your brother money to buy a car comes down to a transaction either made possible or made allowable by a computer. How did we get this way? My show is the story of the decline of the state balanced by the rise of the digital bit. The new ideas of Bretton Woods -- just the first example -- were nearly all about variations on the word "management." Either managers were managing businesses, or government managers were managing citizens and their expectations. Or superpowers-as-managers were attempting to set policy for the rest of the world (look at IMF austerity policies for just a recent example that doesn't involve the use of force). But if we look closely, what we'll see in history is a back-and-forth struggle between the managers and the entrepreneurs, essentially the farmers and the hunters. From this context, Reagan and Thatcher were the revolutionaries, not Clinton and Blair. And this back-and-forth is driven more by advancing information technology than anything else. During the last half century, we have moved most financial transactions from wallets and ledgers literally into computers, making it possible over time to take complete snapshots of what the world of money looks like -- something that could never be done before. The advent of networks and the Internet have broadened access to these snapshots with mind-bending effect. Information that used to be available only to governments, then only to governments and big business, is now becoming available to everyone. And the everyones who will take advantage of this information are the entrepreneurs -- the hunters -- changing forever what it means to manage an economy. Bretton Woods could be managed on the back of an envelope. But the rise of management required centralized information, whether it was at the World Bank or Ford. The rise of entrepreneurism required that kind of information be made available to individuals with access to resources and a willingness to take risks. What made a Peter Lynch better than you or me was not so much his intelligence as the quality of his information, combined with his resources and willingness to use them. If you already have a lot of money or (like Lynch) work for someone who shares with you the tools of traditional companies, then you can be a mainframe entrepreneur. That was the 70s. But then came the PC revolution, which made it possible for almost anyone not to access that same information, but to estimate it: Visicalc substituted accurate and fast guesswork for real knowledge. That was the 80s. And in the 90s, the Internet has given us all access to the real information that we were just estimating before. Bretton Woods presaged the era of management, but mainframes made the era of management possible. Minicomputers in the 1960s made possible corporate entrepreneurism of folks like Peter Lynch, who had wrested information from the guys in white coats and got it on finally right there in a terminal on his desk. The PC made the 80s possible -- an era of economic cowboys where we substituted fast guessing for hard facts. With hard facts, Reaganism and Thatcherism wouldn't have stood. And in the 90s, we've combined the fast thinking of desktops with real data and global communications. What's the result? The decline of the state. George Soros can, for a moment, be more powerful than the Bank of England. And today, a million people on E*Trade can counteract the efforts of any central bank, any national policy, anywhere. So how do the governments react to this erosion of their power? They consolidate to reduce the effect of that erosion. Hence, the Euro. Another version of the same thing is Equador's decision to give-up its own currency in favor of the U.S. dollar. Didn't Russia effectively do that too, years ago? So now let's look at the new state through the old economic filters. What, for example, does the huge U.S. balance of trade deficit actually mean? I don't think it means a damn thing, and that's one of the problems: We tend to look at our fast-changing economy through glasses bought at some earlier time. The 80s brought the downfall of communism, increasingly powerful computers and the spread of telecommunications. As a result, money went completely global, flying from Thailand to Brazil to Russia in a single day. The impact was staggering. The sums traded in the world currency markets are now too vast to contemplate. Trillions change hands every day -- the equivalent of the world's total output for an entire year. And technology is now truly revolutionizing the markets. The massive funds generated by these markets are not passive. They are a potent force in their own right, racing round the world to wherever the best deal is. Their impact can be devastating. Ask the governments of Thailand, Korea and Indonesia, whose economies have felt the full brunt of this tidal wave of rootless money. The world's money is now dominated by giant financial corporations. These corporations are spending billions of dollars on the latest technology, creating worldwide networks where stocks, bonds and every kind of financial product can be traded 24 hours a day. Increasingly, no one holds anything for very long -- weeks at most, usually days, sometimes only hours. The aim is to make money on the transaction, and a tiny fraction on millions of dollars results in big profits. But it makes the financial world a volatile place. Once rises or falls of 20 or 30 points on the Dow Jones, Footsie or Hang Seng share indexes were headline news. Now a drop of 200 points barely raises an eyebrow. In the 90s, banks also embraced the information revolution. Now a global network of networks connects nearly everyone in this world to everyone else whenever money is involved. Go to an automatic teller machine today, press a button, and you are in the middle of a global network of incredible complexity and even elegance. Paper monetary instruments are quickly becoming a thing of the past, thanks to computers. You can now write checks, pay bills, invest, apply for a loan, buy or sell stock, send or receive money anywhere in the world, all electronically. The days of the neighborhood bank with a friendly manager have vanished forever in most countries. Some banks now even penalize their clients for using a human teller. Who would have thought that a bank teller would become like a psychiatrist, someone you had to pay for his or her services? And the pace of change is constantly increasing. The Internet is altering the way individuals handle their money. Millions have now begun to speculate directly for themselves in buying and selling stocks. The role of intermediaries, like brokers -- for generations the backbone of the financial industries -- is under threat. Cash itself is heading for a new dimension. It's remaking itself in the form of magnetic blips that can reside anywhere: on a chip in your pocket, on a laptop or in a card. Almost everyone has a smart card in France. In Japan, you can't make a telephone call without one. Someday soon, money may even exist on a chip implanted under your skin. Then money really will talk. In this relentless transformation of money, there are some casualties. Those who do not have bank accounts and have no access to the world of electronic money must rely on cash to live. But in a universe where bits are king, cash is an expensive commodity -- and having to depend on it will increasingly trap people in a ghetto. So the money revolution is likely to widen the already large gap between the rich and poor in the developed countries, and between the First and the Third Worlds. But this money revolution also has some surprising winners. There are new markets in Shanghai, China, and homemakers who have made a fortune in small town America. Revolutions are rarely fair, often unpredictable, but usually irresistible. The rise of electric money is no exception. --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From jim_windle at eudoramail.com Mon Oct 1 11:43:16 2001 From: jim_windle at eudoramail.com (Jim Windle) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 14:43:16 -0400 Subject: America needs therapy Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Oct 2001 11:33:41 Declan McCullagh wrote: > >On Mon, Oct 01, 2001 at 09:55:34AM -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote: >> Besides which, the true cost of gasoline at the pump would be >> $10-15 @ gallon without all the gov't subsidies to the oil industry. > >I think this canard has been debunked on the list in the last week. > One more bit of debunking. According to the EIA the US uses on average over 8 million barrels of gasoline a day. The petroleum industry defines a barrel as 42 gallons. That's 336 million gallons a day or 123 billion gallons a year. If each gallon is subsidized by $10+ per barrel, the annual sudsidy from the government to the oil industry would be, at a minimum, $1.23 trillion a year. Total GDP in 2000 was only $9.2 trillion. This is non-sense. Or is this subsidy desquised as the defense budget, social security payments and service on the national debt? Jim Windle Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com From alan at clueserver.org Mon Oct 1 15:21:44 2001 From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 15:21:44 -0700 Subject: An apt lyric for today\'s situation in America In-Reply-To: <200109301455.f8UEtYV41051@mailserver1.hushmail.com> References: <200109301455.f8UEtYV41051@mailserver1.hushmail.com> Message-ID: <20011002004950.2C9AC6E42@clueserver.org> On Sunday 30 September 2001 07:55, keyser-soze at hushmail.com wrote: > Don't Dream It's Over A more appropreate lyric for the situation... >From "Duck Soup" These are the laws of my administration No one's allowed to smoke Or tell a dirty joke And whistling is forbidden... If chewing gum is chewed The chewer is pursued. And in the hoosegow hidden... If any form of pleasure is exhibited Report to me and it will be prohibited. I'll put my foot down, so shall it be. This is the land of the free. The last man nearly ruined this place He didn't know what to do with it If you think this country's bad off now Just wait 'til I get through with it The country's taxes must be fixed And I know what to do with it If you think you're paying too much now Just wait 'til I get through with it... I will not stand for anything that's crooked or unfair I'm strictly on the up and up So everyone beware If anyone's caught taking graft And I don't get my share We stand 'em up against the wall And pop goes the weasel. If any man should come between his husband and his bride We find out which one she prefers By letting her decide If she prefers the other man The husband steps outside We stand 'em up against the wall And pop goes the weasel. From jdd at vbc.net Mon Oct 1 07:30:13 2001 From: jdd at vbc.net (Jim Dixon) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 15:30:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: [FREE] stratfor (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20011001100711.A9594@cluebot.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Oct 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > On Sun, Sep 30, 2001 at 04:11:21PM -0400, James B. DiGriz wrote: > > What I find interesting is how we can have a war without a Congressional > > declaration, which out of practical if not legal necessity requires > > something at least approximating a foreign power as the enemy. It would > > be extremely helpful if there were some overt state action or at least a > > smoking gun to publicly identify such party. > > Call me unusually hawkish, but I don't see why that's necessary. Let's > say our fleet was attacked at Pearl Harbor 60 years ago -- but by an > enemy who did not paint his flag on his aircraft. Congress could, and > should, declare war on an unidentified enemy. > > I admit the situation is not as clear here, since generally only nationstates > can raise air armadas and non-nationstate organizations could have trained > the Hijacking 19, but perhaps the parallels are nevertheless sufficient. > Think of it as an "unidentified co-conspirator" approach. Better parallels: the Barbary pirates, against which the US sent a fleet in the early 1800s, or the US Army's incursion into Mexico under Gen Pershing in the early 1900s. You can dispatch troops without a nation-state as the target. -- Jim Dixon VBCnet GB Ltd http://www.vbc.net tel +44 117 929 1316 fax +44 117 927 2015 From kmself at ix.netcom.com Mon Oct 1 15:34:13 2001 From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 15:34:13 -0700 Subject: NYPOST.COM World News: DATA POURING IN FASTER THAN NSA CAN DECIPHER IT By GREG SEIGLE In-Reply-To: <3BB86188.DCCEE26A@ssz.com>; from ravage@ssz.com on Mon, Oct 01, 2001 at 07:28:56AM -0500 References: <3BB86188.DCCEE26A@ssz.com> Message-ID: <20011001153412.O30576@navel.introspect> on Mon, Oct 01, 2001 at 07:28:56AM -0500, Jim Choate (ravage at ssz.com) wrote: > http://www.nypost.com/news/worldnews/5334.htm A suggestion I've made before in other circles: Open source the data. There are clearly a few wrinkles to be worked out, but there are some inflection points that can be used to define the task: - Open sources intelligence -- data gathered from publicly available data -- may be distributed without fear of compromising sources. - Court-of-law doctrines don't apply: there's no need to tell the truth, the whole truth, or nothing but the truth. Information can be selectively withheld. Disinformation may be submitted. Details may be distorted. Scenarios may be projected for the purpose of analyzing possible outcomes. - Covert intelligence may also be selectively leaked, with or without intentional modifications and/or origin masking. - The leaks need not be made under the auspices of the US (or allied) intelligence services, but could be injected anonymously or pseudonymously into existing discussions on Usenet, Webboards, mailing lists, Internet indices such as Google, the press, or other channels. One of the natural problems is identifying *useful* discussion forthcoming. Some existing channels have meaningful ways of idnetifying useful or more meaningful content (proxies such as user tracking, or direct measures such as moderation, preference indication, or collaborative filtering). One of the first discussions I had with a friend following the 9/11 attacks was the similarities between terrorist organization and the free software movement: decentralized operations which are difficult to locate and/or isolate. On reflection, I decided that the distinctions were more meaningful. One of the great strengths (and a frequent criticism) of the free software community is that it is *so* open and deliberative. In particular, organized criticism or oposition often finds itself buried under an onslaught of response. Witness many journalists with a Microsoft bent and their complaints of the seething unwashed GNU/Linux hoards, or this past weekends conclusive denunciation of W3C for proposing and promoting a highly free-software unfriendly licensing policy. By contrast, the opponents of free software must communicate out of band, covertly. One of the advantages of the forces opposed to terrorism is that a very large portion (though granted: not all) of their communications can be free and open. This increases pathways of intelligence analysis and discovery. Worth considering? Peace. -- Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/ Land of the free Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 232 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kmself at ix.netcom.com Mon Oct 1 15:53:51 2001 From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 15:53:51 -0700 Subject: Just Say "So?" In-Reply-To: <5130A6F4-B6AA-11D5-B8A4-0050E439C473@got.net>; from tcmay@got.net on Mon, Oct 01, 2001 at 01:24:29PM -0700 References: <5130A6F4-B6AA-11D5-B8A4-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: <20011001155351.Q30576@navel.introspect> on Mon, Oct 01, 2001 at 01:24:29PM -0700, Tim May (tcmay at got.net) wrote: > When confronted with calls to "Do something!" or "We can't just stand by > and watch!," I think of one word: "So?" There's an alternative formulation: Don't just do something. Stand there. The gist is the same. Senseless activity isn't justified by virtue of being activity. Peace. -- Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/ Land of the free Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature] From kmself at ix.netcom.com Mon Oct 1 15:56:53 2001 From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 15:56:53 -0700 Subject: Text of Ashcroft Anti-Terrorism act? Message-ID: <20011001155653.R30576@navel.introspect> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 930 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Mon Oct 1 13:30:43 2001 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 16:30:43 -0400 Subject: America needs therapy References: <3BB8BD94.5468293E@lsil.com> Message-ID: <3BB8D273.60304@dragonsweb.org> mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: >>"James B. DiGriz" wrote : >> >> > Declan's note about ADM hogs at the trough with lots of other > hogs... > >>A far more productive application of corporate welfare would be if that >>money were spent on engineering research and development of >>geosynchronous solar power microwave relays, fusion and advanced fission >>reactors, permanent manned statons on the Moon, Mars, asteroids, etc. >>The planet and its politics would likely be a lot cleaner. Just one >>beneficial side effect. >> >> > Just wait until some orbiting uwave controller goes bonserk and boils a > slice of America from DC to San Franciso. Oops. Power density in the proposed systems has been at least nominally low enough you could safely graze cattle in the beam. This ain't a Star Wars death-ray. Not even close. > > How about picking some of the low-hanging fruit first? Believe it or not, I'm actively considering an ethanol project. Wasn't suggesting such things were not worthwhile. Not by a long shot. How far along do you think the emerging fuel-cell technologies would be without the space program, though? > > Start with greed and waste and work your way up to the Buck Rogers > stuff. > Jeez, maybe we can eliminate crime, win the War on Drugs, and wipe out stupidity, too. > After all, if we can't get the simple shit right what hope is there that > we can handle anything that requires brains and responsibility? > We had the Buck Rogers stuff 30 years ago, dropped the ball, and have been resting on our laurels and for the most part have been wasting a singular historic opportunity ever since. Wait any longer, and it could be too late. Might already be. They want to whittle down the already whittled down ISS, more unmanned planetary scientific missions canceled. the Superconducting Collider canceled, fusion research whittled down and stretched out past mid-century, hardly any new reactor designs production tested in decades, etc. etc. etc. Whatever happened to gaseous fission rocket motors, for instance? > >>If govts. didn't insist on scarfing up so much in taxes and thwarting >>markets at the behest of vested interests, private parties probably >>would already be doing most of this by now. >> >>But what else is new? >> >>jbdigriz >> >> > Until there is a crisis nothing will be done. It will require widely > accepted evidence of a problem ( read : widespread domestic starvation ) > before action will be taken and then the only parties in a position to > take that action will be those same private parties ( the dreaded vested > interests ) that you complain about. By that time it will be way too late. Plenty enough crisis right now to spur constructive developments. In case you haven't noticed, there are a few new players in the game, too. > > I think that our technology is one of our greatest strengths and our > faith in that technology is one of our greatest weaknesses. We avoid > basic remedies in the hopes that techology will offer some sort of > ultimate cure that will not inconvenience us one bit and the net result > is that we raise the stakes unnecessarily. > I started a comment on this, but then I scrolled down and saw you admit to being a closet Luddite. > Am I wrong or doesn't there seem to be an implicit assumption in our > *SOVSUV-mad rush to consume petroleum that technology has the solution > to a shortage just about ready to roll when the need arises? Myself, I > highly doubt it in spite of Bush's reassuring words that "there are no > limits" to what technology can accomplish. > > Sorry, I don't commute to work in an F350 King Cab Dualie, > Mike ( pessimistic techie and closet Luddite ) > Hey, walking is cheap. :-) > *SOV - Single Occupancy Vehicle as opposed to HOV > > SOV is not my own - thanks to DB in Madison. > jbdigriz From JuanCarlos at MemoryKings.net Mon Oct 1 13:33:34 2001 From: JuanCarlos at MemoryKings.net (Juan Carlos) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 16:33:34 -0400 Subject: I have 100 epsons 777 left in stock for 55$ each new retail box warranty 1 yr. Message-ID: I have 100 epsons 777 left in stock for 55$ each new retail box warranty 1 yr. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Email for printers.doc Type: application/msword Size: 19968 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Mon Oct 1 08:28:54 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 17:28:54 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: America needs therapy In-Reply-To: <3BB883D8.D3D95072@cybershamanix.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Oct 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote: > Not true at all. Biodiesel is being marketed in the US today at > competitive prices, and obviously, like anything else, economies of > scale would bring down that price. Ethanol is another one. Brazil run Biodiesel and bioethanol are horribly inefficient as far as conversion of solar energy and agricultural area is concerned. Large scale agriculture is not exactly environmentally neutral. They're extreme niche or gimmick fuels at best. Synfuel and synthetic methanol as well as hydrogen via fuel reforming from fossils and biomass/renewables is another thing entirely, and entirely worthwhile. Both synthetic methanol and fuel reforming allows slow migration to fuel cells, without pissing off the fossil fuel people. > a large portion of it's vehicles on ethanol. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 From info at giganetstore.com Mon Oct 1 11:49:35 2001 From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 19:49:35 +0100 Subject: A giganetstore.com festeja o... Message-ID: <0c14436491801a1WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com> A giganetstore.com festeja o... Dia Mundial da Música venha festejar connosco! ID ----- Macy Gray 2.990$00 14,91€ Iowa ----- Slipknot 2.990$00 14,91€ The Look Of Love ----- Diana Krall 2.990$00 14,91€ Vespertine ----- Bjork 2.990$00 14,91€ Visite as nossas novidades musicais... Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site http:\\www.giganetstore.com , ir à edição do seu registo e retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das nossas promoções e novos serviços -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 7882 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nobody at paranoici.org Mon Oct 1 11:01:28 2001 From: nobody at paranoici.org (Anonymous) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 20:01:28 +0200 Subject: Oracle must die Message-ID: <09250ce08837a3807c6200f148412390@paranoici.org> >The crimes are: (1) insulting the memories of those killed, by trying >to hitch a free ride on the emotional backblast of the 911 attacks. (2) >treason against individual sovereignty, by aiding and abetting the >enemies of freedom (3) attempted murder of the rival company Microsoft. I agree. Last Fri I decided to go with informix (around $7K involved) - and oracle's joining of hysteria was the principal cause. This is the first time ever I made a decision based on non-technical issues. From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Oct 1 18:12:49 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 20:12:49 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Cringely on PBS: electronic money (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 19:54:55 -0400 From: "R. A. Hettinga" To: dcsb at ai.mit.edu, cryptography at wasabisystems.com, e$@vmeng.com Subject: Cringely on PBS: electronic money --- begin forwarded text From declan at well.com Mon Oct 1 17:32:57 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 20:32:57 -0400 Subject: FC: Congress drafts new "anti-terror" bill -- with expiration date Message-ID: Text of the new PATRIOT ("Provide Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism") Act: http://www.well.com/~declan/sep11/patriot.act.100101.pdf Background on other legislation: http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,47199,00.html http://www.wartimeliberty.com/search.pl?topic=legislation -Declan ********* http://www.wired.com/news/conflict/0,2100,47230,00.html Eavesdrop Now, Reassess Later? By Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com) 5:00 p.m. Oct. 1, 2001 PDT WASHINGTON -- House negotiators have drafted anti-terrorism legislation to grant police unprecedented eavesdropping powers that would automatically expire in two years. Leaders of the House Judiciary committee have crafted a new anti-terrorism bill, called the Patriot Act, that includes nearly all the surveillance abilities requested by President Bush -- but with a sunset date of Dec. 31, 2003. A vote on the bill is expected this week. A 122-page draft (PDF) of the Patriot Act, obtained by Wired News, says that police could conduct Internet wiretaps in some situations without court orders, that judges' ability to reject surveillance requests would be sharply curtailed, and that the powers of a secret federal court would be expanded. [...] ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. Declan McCullagh's photographs are at http://www.mccullagh.org/ To subscribe to Politech: http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- End forwarded message ----- From schear at lvcm.com Mon Oct 1 20:45:40 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 20:45:40 -0700 Subject: America needs therapy In-Reply-To: <3BB8A71C.50308@dragonsweb.org> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010930154543.039883b8@pop3.lvcm.com> <20011001101300.B9594@cluebot.com> <3BB883D8.D3D95072@cybershamanix.com> <20011001113341.A11641@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011001202745.04a0b630@pop3.lvcm.com> At 01:25 PM 10/1/2001 -0400, James B. DiGriz wrote: >Declan McCullagh wrote: >A far more productive application of corporate welfare would be if that >money were spent on engineering research and development of geosynchronous >solar power microwave relays, fusion and advanced fission reactors, >permanent manned statons on the Moon, Mars, asteroids, etc. The planet and >its politics would likely be a lot cleaner. Just one beneficial side effect. Research in geosynchronous power satellites is still being funded. One program, started in Japan but which is now also funded by NASA, uses 5.7 GHz transmission to a ground based RECifying anTENNAs. Another project intends to use IR lasers. My understanding is these projects are receiving serious funding and prototypes should fly soon. steve From declan at well.com Mon Oct 1 17:48:28 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 20:48:28 -0400 Subject: Congress drafts new "anti-terror" bill -- with expiration date Message-ID: <20011001204828.A25935@cluebot.com> ----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh ----- From measl at mfn.org Mon Oct 1 18:49:42 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 20:49:42 -0500 (CDT) Subject: =?X-UNKNOWN?Q?Nov-L=3A_St_Louis_Post-Dispatch_-_DEA_=5Biso-88?= =?X-UNKNOWN?Q?59-1=5D_WON=92T_PUNISH_AGENTS_WHO__FAILED_TO?= =?X-UNKNOWN?Q?_DISCLOSE_LYING_BY_INFORMER_CHAMBERS_=28fwd=29?= Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 14:58:47 -0700 From: Nora Callahan To: november-l at november.org Subject: Nov-L: St Louis Post-Dispatch - DEA [iso-8859-1] WON^�T PUNISH AGENTS WHO FAILED TO DISCLOSE LYING BY INFORMER CHAMBERS Pubdate: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 Source: St. Louis Post-Dispatch (MO) Copyright: 2001 St. Louis Post-Dispatch Contact: letters at post-dispatch.com Website: http://home.post-dispatch.com/ Details: http://www.mapinc.org/media/418 Author: Michael D. Sorkin, The Post-Dispatch DEA WON�T PUNISH AGENTS WHO FAILED TO DISCLOSE LYING BY INFORMER CHAMBERS Nobody will be disciplined for letting St. Louis-based drug snitch Andrew Chambers lie under oath throughout 16 years of government testimony, Asa Hutchinson, the new head of the DEA, disclosed in an interview with the Post-Dispatch. But he vowed that the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration would never again give informers the free rein that Chambers abused. ". . . It hurts the agency," Hutchinson said, referring to Chambers� lying in testimony about his background and arrest record. The testimony has compromised dozens of DEA investigations. Hutchinson said no agents have been punished because an investigation determined that it was the DEA�s own policies that failed. Chambers, 44, grew up in University City. Before his suspension last year, he was the most active�and one of the highest paid�undercover operatives in the DEA�s history. "Chambers abused his position with us, and we didn�t have the systems in place to keep the checks and balances on that," Hutchinson said last week. He said he�s confident the right checks are now in place: * The DEA has set up a central registry to keep track of informers who testify in more than one place. Beginning in 1984, when Chambers was recruited at the agency�s Clayton office, he helped arrest more than 400 drug suspects in 31 cities. He also lied under oath at least 16 times, but the DEA says its agents either didn�t know or, if they did, didn�t tell their colleagues elsewhere. * * All agents have been ordered to turn over the complete records of their snitches to prosecutors and defense attorneys. Some agents were in courtrooms when Chambers lied but never reported it. Others did, but the agency kept a lid on it. How could no one be punished after years of courtroom lying? The DEA�s own records show that senior officials at headquarters fought a two-year court fight to keep secret Chambers records: that he repeatedly lied in court when he claimed he had never been arrested or convicted, inflated his educational background and claimed he paid taxes on his DEA earnings - more than $1.8 million. The DEA spent months investigating itself. The report of that investigation, obtained by the Post-Dispatch in May, concluded that at least one DEA supervisor in the field should have done more to report Chambers� courtroom lying. In July, a DEA spokesman said two employees were under investigation. They are now identified only as an agent and a supervisor. "A thorough investigation was done, and there was no finding that would result in a disciplinary action," DEA spokesman Michael Chapman said Friday. Critics see a cover-up "I�m stunned that so much government wrongdoing meant so little to the government," said Dean Steward. He�s a former federal public defender in California who led a three-year effort to make the Justice Department disclose the extent of Chambers� lying - and the Justice Department�s complicity. "Had this been a major corporation, heads would roll," Steward added. Hutchinson acknowledged that the scandal had hurt the DEA: "Whenever you lose the credibility of an informant . . . it hurts the agency." But in the end, he said, it appeared to be "a failure of policy versus a failure of personnel." He said he wasn�t familiar with all of the details because he became DEA administrator just over a month ago. He reports to Attorney General John Ashcroft, who also took office months after Chambers was suspended, after disclosures in the Post-Dispatch. Hutchinson said undercover snitches are crucial, both to his agency in the war on drugs, as well as to the country�s new war on terrorism. "You�ve got to use informants. . . . Otherwise, you can�t get the job done." He said the DEA won�t use Chambers again in any capacity - despite accolades from dozens of agents who considered him the best. Here�s how the DEA investigation describes Chambers: ". . . Motivated by money, thrill, camaraderie and a sense of self-righteousness." The DEA chief disagreed with those who say Chambers is too valuable to lose. "You don�t lose anything by cutting that out," Hutchinson said. "You want to balance proper accountability and checks and balances with getting the job done." -------- November-L is a voluntary mailing list of the November Coalition. To unsubscribe, visit http://www.november.org/lists/ or send a message to november-L-request at november.org containing the command "unsubscribe" From declan at well.com Mon Oct 1 17:56:27 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 20:56:27 -0400 Subject: Text of Ashcroft Anti-Terrorism act? In-Reply-To: <20011001155653.R30576@navel.introspect>; from kmself@ix.netcom.com on Mon, Oct 01, 2001 at 03:56:53PM -0700 References: <20011001155653.R30576@navel.introspect> Message-ID: <20011001205627.A26089@cluebot.com> See: http://www.wartimeliberty.com/article.pl?sid=01/10/02/0045229&mode=nocomment On Mon, Oct 01, 2001 at 03:56:53PM -0700, Karsten M. Self wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Does anyone know if the updated text of the proposed Anti-Terrorism act > has been published? > > The NYT reports Ashcroft urging a vote by "next week": > > http://archives.nytimes.com/2001/10/01/national/01SECU.html > > No substance on the bill itself. > > Peace. > > - -- > Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ > What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave > http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/ Land of the free > Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org > Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org > > iD8DBQE7uPSwOEeIn1XyubARAhlOAJ9nwMEbAflsEosg6gbGHTXDT6vb5QCdHFk9 > cdcIK3NoTCMTUi6tkBno+U0= > =Xlov > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From schear at lvcm.com Mon Oct 1 21:04:19 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 21:04:19 -0700 Subject: America needs therapy In-Reply-To: <20011001101300.B9594@cluebot.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010930154543.039883b8@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20010930154543.039883b8@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011001080547.03987ea8@pop3.lvcm.com> At 10:13 AM 10/1/2001 -0400, you wrote: >Until Sep. 11, at least, we may have adopted a cost-benefit >approach. Non-oil fuels are far more expensive, and more radical approaches >like wiring homes for solar would be quite intrusive and also expensive. While I agree that all non-oil energy has, until recently, been more expensive its been a self-fulfilling prophesy. If you don't make the investments or provide the incentives to innovation then progress is slow or stopped. Breakthroughs in efficiency and economics are finally being made but their delayed arrival can be laid directly on the doorstep of Congress and past administration inattention. -Wind power is finally competitive with on-grid fossil fuel plants (i.e. $0.04 - $0.05/KWh). -Improvements in fuel cell efficiency and fuel choice http://www.llnl.gov/str/June01/Cooper.html should make them competitive within a decade for transportation, on-grid and off-grid applications. -Solar, while still not yet competitive with fossil fuel on-grid is steadily improving. (Off-grid its already competitive.) Recent, non-public developments, should enable substantial commercial breakthroughs soon. >So perhaps (note I'm not saying our politicos were actually this smart or >that this is good foreign policy) the thinking was that by interfering >in the middle east, which has a high cost, the benefits of cheap oil >justified it. As Tim and others have pointed out oil only looks cheap if all the costs are not exposed at the pump. The most cost-effective measures to energy reform are conservation but since consumers and business have been shielded from directly/visibly bearing much of the true costs for petroleum-based power production the market signals were absent and conservation was too often ignored. A link to what could be saved with reasonable and currently available consumer and commercial choices http://www.rmi.org/sitepages/pid509.php One of the philosophical sources for RMI is Natural Capitalism http://www.natcap.org/ Has anyone on the list read this work or have an opinion? steve From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Oct 1 19:09:16 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 21:09:16 -0500 Subject: SMART DUST Message-ID: <3BB921CC.66D413ED@ssz.com> http://robotics.eecs.berkeley.edu/~pister/SmartDust/ -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion. Edmund Burke (1784) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ashley.pearce at gartner.com Mon Oct 1 21:23:29 2001 From: ashley.pearce at gartner.com (ashley.pearce at gartner.com) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 21:23:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Your Final Chance to Save For Gartner's WLAN Summit Message-ID: ************************************************************* Seize The Early Bird Advantage Register by October 8, 2001 to Save at Gartner's Wireless LAN Summit Unplugged Access to Profitability November 14-16, 2001 Boston, Massachusetts Click on http://www.gartnerinfo.com/g.cgi/1334986/31/us/wlan ************************************************************* Priority Code: RAF04M Dear Joe Cypherpunk: THE BEGINNING OF A NEW TECHNOLOGY IS WHERE ALL THE EXCITEMENT AND CHALLENGES ARE – and where you have the best chance to seize competitive advantage. 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Find out how your company can achieve financial savings, improve productivity, and gain competitive advantage by becoming unplugged. You'll hear from companies who are successfully deploying WLANs – and learn from the challenges they're overcoming along the way. 2. IT'S A FAST-MOVING MARKET. Get the real story on whether Bluetooth has a future. 3. THIS IS THE ONLY VENDOR-NEUTRAL WLAN CONFERENCE AROUND. Would you rather get an objective view from our analysts or rely on salespeople for information? 4. GARTNER CLIENTS – YOU CAN BOOK YOUR OWN ONE-ON-ONE HALF- HOUR COUNSELING SESSION with a Gartner analyst. 5. GET ACTIONABLE ADVICE AND A REAL PLAN FOR SETTING UP YOUR WLAN that you can start putting into effect when you get back to the office. 6. YOU'LL GET OUR ANALYSTS LONG-TERM PERSPECTIVE to help you plan ahead in this newly emerging technology space. 7. REAL COMPANIES/REAL SOLUTIONS: This isn't pie-in-the-sky stuff. It's happening now – and you can hear all about it from the companies who are doing it: Disney, BMW, UPS and many more. 8. IF SECURITY IS AN ISSUE (and of course it is), you need to know what to do to avoid drive-by hacking, etc. 9. YOU'LL SAVE $200 WHEN YOU REGISTER BY OCTOBER 8. 10. WAITING TIL NEXT YEAR ISN'T AN OPTION – THE TIME TO SEIZE COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE IS NOW! ************************************************************* If, for any reason, you do not wish to receive future information from Gartner via e-mail, please send an e-mail to ashley.pearce at gartner.com If you have recently asked that your name be removed from our e-mail distribution list, please be advised that your request is being processed. We apologize for any inconvenience. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 14104 bytes Desc: not available URL: From schear at lvcm.com Mon Oct 1 21:24:19 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 21:24:19 -0700 Subject: America needs therapy In-Reply-To: <3BB8D273.60304@dragonsweb.org> References: <3BB8BD94.5468293E@lsil.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011001212123.037fcea0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 04:30 PM 10/1/2001 -0400, James B. DiGriz wrote: >mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: > >>>"James B. DiGriz" wrote : >>> >> Declan's note about ADM hogs at the trough with lots of other >>hogs... >> >>>A far more productive application of corporate welfare would be if that >>>money were spent on engineering research and development of >>>geosynchronous solar power microwave relays, fusion and advanced fission >>>reactors, permanent manned statons on the Moon, Mars, asteroids, etc. >>>The planet and its politics would likely be a lot cleaner. Just one >>>beneficial side effect. >>> >>Just wait until some orbiting uwave controller goes bonserk and boils a >>slice of America from DC to San Franciso. Oops. > > >Power density in the proposed systems has been at least nominally low >enough you could safely graze cattle in the beam. This ain't a Star Wars >death-ray. Not even close. Beam density of the project I'm aware is estimated as 23mW/cm2 at the center of the rectenna and 1mw/cm2 at the rectenna edge. steve From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Mon Oct 1 14:39:59 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 23:39:59 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: OFF TOPIC: Re: America needs therapy In-Reply-To: <3BB8B4F4.B048214E@cybershamanix.com> Message-ID: This is about as off-topic as the mold issue. You've been warned. On Mon, 1 Oct 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote: > > Biodiesel and bioethanol are horribly inefficient as far as conversion of > > solar energy and agricultural area is concerned. Large scale agriculture > > is not exactly environmentally neutral. They're extreme niche or gimmick > > fuels at best. > > Where do you get that from? Are you saying that farmers aren't growing > canola oil at a profit? Farmers are also growing corn and that corn is > turned into ethanol at a profit. No. I'm saying if you use bioethanol, biodiesel or oil made from agricultural products you're milking a negligable fraction of the solar constant (1.4 kW/m^2 flux hereabouts), even solar constant at the bottom of this gravity well (varies greatly). Plus, you kill soil, reduce biodiversity, contaminate ground water, reduce ground water level plus cause salination in susceptible areas, burn energy for machines, fertilizer & Co and create waste. There are also less tangible but nevertheless real factors such as high material fluxes, associated pollution, perpetuation of Carnot cycle machines and agromafia. What we need is sufficient control of molecular self-replication that we can use photons directly for photosynthesis or water photolysis. Before we'll get that, we'll have to settle for conventional thin-film and polymer photovoltaics, electrolysis and photoelectrolysis/photosynthesis. I would think that CuInSe thin film would do very nicely today if facade-integrated, before we get polymer. > http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol.html > > > Ethanol is a highly efficient fuel. A study by Energy density of ethanol is about half of gasoline. You *can* use it in a fuel cell or a fuel reformer, but methanol is easier. Methanol <-> synthesis gas conversion is really clean. > > the Institute of Local Self-Reliance in the > > US found that using the best farming and > > production methods, "the amount of energy > > contained in a gallon of ethanol is more than > > twice the energy used to grow the corn and > > convert it to ethanol". So, assuming these people haven't been pulling data straight from their ass, you have to burn half of the ethanol you would get from a square meter of a field in order to do it. Not counting the presence of said field, the agricultural infrastructure and the agrohol plant. > > The US Department of Agriculture says > > each BTU (British Thermal Unit, an energy > > measure) used to produce a BTU of > > gasoline could be used to produce 8 BTUs > > of ethanol. Now this says something else than journeyforever folks said. 8:1 is something else than 2:1. > > The non-profit American Coalition for > > Ethanol says ethanol production is > > "extremely energy efficient", with a positive Energy efficient as compared to what exactly? Nuke, fossil, photovoltaics, wind? And, of course, energy is only a very small part of the picture. > > energy balance of 125%, compared to 85% > > for gasoline, making ethanol production "by > > far the most efficient method of producing > > liquid transportation fuels". Now, it's only 125%. Very strange numbers, these. > > > > If you are refering to the paper done by Pimental, that study was > seriously flawed (so much so that one might think it was paid for by big oil) > and thoroughly debunked. See: > http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_energy.html I do not refer to the study of Pimenthal, just seat of the pants ecology and 8th class highschool level physics. I don't have time to google for this stuff, but I'm sure you'll find enough references as to why bioethanol and biodiesel are hardly a silver bullet. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 From nobody at dizum.com Mon Oct 1 14:40:12 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 23:40:12 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Brinworld: citizens with speed-radar Message-ID: > According to collected data, the average speed in 30 mph zones ranged > from 35.5 to 46 mph. In the 35 mph zones, the average speed was about 43 > mph. The highest speed, clocked by Colonial Estates East Citizens on > Patrol group, was 62 mph in a 30 mph zone. Too bad this wasn't California. According to that states laws, if a survey shows that average driver speeds are substantially higher than the posted speed limit, the speed limit must be raised. It would have been a sweet irony if these busybodies had ended up with 60 MPH posted speed limits on their residential streets. From tcmay at got.net Mon Oct 1 23:50:52 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 23:50:52 -0700 Subject: America needs therapy In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011001080547.03987ea8@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: On Monday, October 1, 2001, at 09:04 PM, Steve Schear wrote: > > As Tim and others have pointed out oil only looks cheap if all the costs > are not exposed at the pump. Gee, I recall making a much different point. I recall disputing the claim that the "real, unsubsidized" price of oil is $10 a gallon for gas. Oil looks cheap because oil _is_ cheap. It gets a lot more expensive at the pump because various shakedown artists apply taxes, which they rationalize to their proles in various ways. --Tim May From Anti_Immigration-owner at yahoogroups.com Mon Oct 1 19:48:08 2001 From: Anti_Immigration-owner at yahoogroups.com (Anti_Immigration moderator) Date: 2 Oct 2001 02:48:08 -0000 Subject: Invitation to join the Anti_Immigration group Message-ID: <1001990888.7888.75356.c2@yahoogroups.com> Hello, You've been invited to join the Anti_Immigration group, an email group hosted by Yahoo! Groups, a free, easy-to-use email group service. JOIN NOW, IT'S EASY: 1) REPLY to this email by clicking "Reply" and then "Send" in your email program -OR- 2) Go to the Yahoo! Groups site at http://groups.yahoo.com/invite/Anti_Immigration?email=cypherpunks%40toad%2Ecom&iref=oxf_s9D-2sVMt1IEj1zkSxhxpDU By joining Anti_Immigration, you will be able to exchange messages with other group members. Yahoo! Groups also makes it easy to store photos and files, coordinate events and more. Here's an introductory message from the group moderator: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hello, I am writing to ask you to join my email list. One of the most important issues facing our nation is the recent terrorist attacks and how our immigration laws contributed to this tragedy. In this email list we are discussing the recent terrorist attack on NYC and the PENTAGON. We are discussing the religion of Islam and why so many terrorists are Muslim. We are discussing how legal and illegal immigration played a role in these terrorist attacks. Please join us. We are covering stories that you will not find in your local newspaper, nor anywhere in the mainstream media. TO JOIN THIS EMAIL GROUP PLEASE SEND AN EMAIL TO THIS ADDRESS; Anti_Immigration-Subscribe at yahoogroups.com AND YOU WILL BE AUTOMATICALLY ADDED TO THIS EMAIL LIST. OR JUST SEND A "REPLY" TO THIS EMAIL AND YOU WILL BE AUTOMATICALLY ADDED TO THIS LIST. I started this Yahoo email list for the purpose of discussing the legal and illegal immigration that is threatening to overwhelm America and destroy our Republic. Did you know that there are over 60 MILLION immigrants living in America today who were not born in America? That is a huge number. I contend that it is not good for the future of America to continue accepting such huge numbers of immigrants from every third world nation on earth. Do you agree? Please join us. This is a moderated group and the volume of email in this list is intentionally kept to a very low number of emails per day (usually less than 3 or 4 per day weekly average). I pledge to never overfill your email box with too many emails. Please join this List and invite your friends join also. So that you will know exactly where I am coming from I wrote the following; I AM A FAN OF WorldNetDaily.com-NewsMax.com-LewRockwell.com-FreeRepublic.com-FrontPageMag.com-Human Events Newspaper-MediaByPass magazine-The New American Magazine-Patriot Militia's-General Douglas McArthur-President Ronald Reagan-Senator Joseph McCarthy-Robert Bork-Russell Kirk-Pat Buchanan-Allan Keyes-Dr. James Kennedy-R.J.Rushdoony-Andrew Sandlin-Gary North-Gary Demar-David Chilton-John Calvin-Jonathan Edwards-George Whitefield-Martin Luther-Donald Wildmon-Jay Sekulow-John Whitehead-John McManus-David Barton-Senator Bob Smith-Bob Dornan-Congressmen Ron Paul,Helen Chenoweth,George Hansen-Gordon Kahl-Howard Philips-Ludwig von Mises-F.A.Hayek-Milton Friedman-Russell Kirk-Martin Gross-Vin Suprynowicz-Walter Williams-Thomas Sowell-Alex Jones-Michael Savage-Frank from Queens-Shawn Hannity-Rabbi Daniel Lapin-Michael Medved-Chuck Morse-Don Feder-Sam Blumenfeld-Joseph Sobran-Michael Hoffman-Bo Gritz-Larry Becraft-Michael New-Charlotte Iserbyt-Beverly Eakman- Phyllis Schlafly-Josep! h ! 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THANKS, BOB. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Anti_Immigration/messages - Archives, Recent messages sent from this list. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Anti_Immigration - A description of the Anti-immigration group Subscribe: Anti_Immigration-subscribe at yahoogroups.com Post message: Anti_Immigration at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: Anti_Immigration-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com List owner: Anti_Immigration-owner at yahoogroups.com My Email address: anti_immigration_man at yahoo.com My Email address: BobFromMichigan74 at Hotmail.com My Email address: BobFromMichigan73 at Hotmail.com My Email address: BobFromMichigan72 at Hotmail.com My Email address: BobFromMichigan71 at Hotmail.com My Email address: BobFromMichigan70 at Hotmail.com I urge you to join me on this yahoo anti-immigration email discussion list. It is easy to join the list. How? To join just send me a "reply" to this email and you will be automatically added to the anti-immigration email list. OR Just send an email to this address: Anti_Immigration-Subscribe at YahooGroups.com PS - PLEASE TELL OTHERS ABOUT THIS EMAIL LIST TOO! Thanks for your consideration, Bob from Michigan. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ If you do not wish to join the Anti_Immigration group, please ignore this invitation. SPECIAL NOTE FROM Yahoo! Groups: Because Yahoo! Groups values your privacy, it is a violation of our service rules for moderators to abuse this invitation feature. If you feel this has happened, please notify us at abuse at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From drevil at sidereal.kz Mon Oct 1 20:41:45 2001 From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil) Date: 2 Oct 2001 03:41:45 -0000 Subject: Lesson from WTC: Question Authority In-Reply-To: (message from Tim May on Mon, 1 Oct 2001 11:05:06 -0700) References: Message-ID: <20011002034145.24220.qmail@sidereal.kz> > The moral: look out for yourself, and maybe a few others, friends or > even strangers. But don't trust "authority"--trusting the soothing > voices over the PA got a lot of people killed. That is a good point. I'm sure the passengers on the hijacked planes were doing the same thing: waiting for the "authorities" to rescue them. The standard advice is "comply with their demands and let the authorities handle the problem". It's part of the "dial 911" mentality that is common in America, which basically says, "You are not responsible for your own personal safety; the authorities are." Unfortunately, in the long history of the world, it has been proven time and time again that the only person you can really count on for your safety is your own self, and America has not discovered some magic formula that makes that no longer true. Obviously, the passengers on the one plane that didn't hit its target knew from information from the other planes that if they didn't take their own action to solve the problem, they would end up slamming into some target, and they heroicly decided to take matters into their own hands. One good thing to come out of this is that people will question that old advice. Gun sales are up apparently. From vsanjay32 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 2 04:17:08 2001 From: vsanjay32 at yahoo.com (Sanjay Verma) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 04:17:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Encryption in Microsoft Word Document Message-ID: <20011002111708.85146.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> Dear Sir I have got a few files in Microsoft Word 6, which is enabled with password for which I have forgotten. Please let me know if there is any way with which I can break though the password as it contains some important documents about my personal things otherwise it will be very dangerous to me. Thanx & regards Sanjay Verma Durgamandir Chowk, Barahazari, Rewari � 123401 (Haryana) India � 91 Phone No. 91 01274 57867 Fax No. 91 01274 57867 E-mail: vsanjay32 at yahoo.com Sanjay Verma SKY CYBER CAFE "S. S. COMPUTERS Durgamandir Chowk, Barahazari, Rewari-123401 (Haryana) --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone with Yahoo! by Phone. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 917 bytes Desc: not available URL: From honig at sprynet.com Tue Oct 2 07:43:11 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 07:43:11 -0700 Subject: STILL OFF TOPIC: Re: America needs therapy In-Reply-To: <3BB9BA7E.EF285A0C@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011002074311.0094aa90@pop.sprynet.com> At 02:00 PM 10/2/01 +0100, Ken Brown wrote: >And if you can put up a bloody huge enough launcher on the moon, (use >solar energy or nuclear - why not - it is one place in the system that >we don't care about pollution) then you can send material back all the >way to LEO by slingshot, and when it is captured by the facility at LEO, And Lloyds pays out when you miss the catch? (Then again, NASA played plutonium slingshot without coverage... ) From matt at rearviewmirror.org Tue Oct 2 08:08:38 2001 From: matt at rearviewmirror.org (Matt Beland) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 08:08:38 -0700 Subject: STILL OFF TOPIC: Re: America needs therapy In-Reply-To: <3BB9BA7E.EF285A0C@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> References: <3BB9BA7E.EF285A0C@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: <200110021506.f92F6pf15392@slack.lne.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 4433 bytes Desc: not available URL: From matt at rearviewmirror.org Tue Oct 2 08:12:59 2001 From: matt at rearviewmirror.org (Matt Beland) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 08:12:59 -0700 Subject: STILL OFF TOPIC: Re: America needs therapy In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011002074311.0094aa90@pop.sprynet.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20011002074311.0094aa90@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <200110021511.f92FBFf15462@slack.lne.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 1596 bytes Desc: not available URL: From honig at sprynet.com Tue Oct 2 08:29:31 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 08:29:31 -0700 Subject: FTC vs. First Amendment Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011002082931.00942580@pop.sprynet.com> So if someone goes to your site, the FTC can tell you how to communicate? Or only if your site's DNS entry is hamming-close to another? Or only if you're communicating unPC (e.g., erotica) content? And how does "bombarding them with ads" differ from spam, which has been 1st-amend. protected so far? If you run with javascript enabled, you deserve what you get. Keep your laws off my HTML. http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1005-200-7371736.html?tag=mn_hd FTC shutters thousands of Web sites By Reuters October 1, 2001, 11:40 a.m. PT WASHINGTON--A U.S. court shut down thousands of Web sites after it determined that they diverted Web surfers and held them captive while bombarding them with ads for pornography and gambling, the U.S. government said on Monday. According to the Federal Trade Commission, John Zuccarini, of Andalusia, Pa., outside Philadelphia, operated more than 5,500 Web sites that diverted Web surfers from their intended destinations and exposed them to pop-up ads. Zuccarini did not immediately respond to calls for comment. Zuccarini registered many misspellings of popular sites, such as Cartoonnetwork.com, the FTC said, in a bid to draw traffic from sloppy typists. Visitors to his sites often could not leave, as the "back" button on their Web browsers would be rigged to trigger more pop-up ads. "After one FTC staff member closed out of 32 separate windows, leaving just two windows on the task bar, he selected the 'back' button, only to watch as the same seven windows that initiated the blitz erupted on his screen, and the cybertrap began anew," the FTC said in its complaint, filed in the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Pennsylvania, in Philadelphia. The scheme is especially harmful to children or employees who may put their jobs at risk when they inadvertently call up pornographic or gambling-related material, the FTC said. The district court has ordered Zuccarini to take his sites offline, the FTC said, while the case continues. But as of early Monday afternoon, at least one site registered to Zuccarini, Annakurnikova.com, was still functional. Zuccarini had registered 41 variations on the name of pop star Britney Spears, the FTC said. In its court action, the FTC is seeking to get Zuccarini to return the estimated $800,000 to $1 million he earns in advertising revenues. According to the FTC, Zuccarini has been sued at least 63 times in the last two years by trademark owners, celebrities or others seeking to recover variants of their Internet domain names. He has lost 53 of those suits and been forced to return nearly 200 domain names, the FTC said. From honig at sprynet.com Tue Oct 2 08:33:13 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 08:33:13 -0700 Subject: STILL OFF TOPIC: Re: America needs therapy In-Reply-To: <200110021511.f92FBFf15462@slack.lne.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20011002074311.0094aa90@pop.sprynet.com> <3.0.6.32.20011002074311.0094aa90@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011002083313.00948180@pop.sprynet.com> At 08:12 AM 10/2/01 -0700, Matt Beland wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > >On Tuesday 02 October 2001 07:43 am, David Honig wrote: >> At 02:00 PM 10/2/01 +0100, Ken Brown wrote: >> >And if you can put up a bloody huge enough launcher on the moon, (use >> >solar energy or nuclear - why not - it is one place in the system that >> >we don't care about pollution) then you can send material back all the >> >way to LEO by slingshot, and when it is captured by the facility at LEO, >> >> And Lloyds pays out when you miss the catch? >> >> (Then again, NASA played plutonium slingshot without coverage... ) > >Bah. Read a physics text sometime. Miss the catch and the payload continues >on in it's original path, which would be at a tangent to the intended orbit >and therefore to the surface. Why don't you consider worst case scenarios, and aerobraking. > >As for NASA playing "plutonium slingshot", they did indeed - with a huge >margin for error, and a design so pessimistic that even if the damned thing >had slammed head-on into the planet, there would almost certainly have been >zero contamination. If the canister HAD broken, the contamination would have >been roughly on the scale of Three Mile Island, which killed 0 people and did >0 environmental damage. Why don't you consider worst case scenarios, and aerobraking. > >If you and the other idiots want to object to the things NASA and others do, >fine. Be my guest. But do your homework FIRST. Why don't you consider worst case scenarios, and aerobraking. From schear at lvcm.com Tue Oct 2 08:34:39 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 08:34:39 -0700 Subject: STILL OFF TOPIC: Re: America needs therapy In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011001202745.04a0b630@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011002082542.03815f10@pop3.lvcm.com> At 01:14 PM 10/2/2001 +0200, Eugene Leitl wrote: >On Mon, 1 Oct 2001, Steve Schear wrote: > > > At 01:25 PM 10/1/2001 -0400, James B. DiGriz wrote: > > >Declan McCullagh wrote: > > >A far more productive application of corporate welfare would be if that > > >money were spent on engineering research and development of geosynchronous > > >solar power microwave relays, fusion and advanced fission reactors, > >GEO is lousy: it's too far away, Apparently the engineers for these project differ with you. >and it's packed already. GEO is only packed for communications applications. Physically, most of it is very sparsely populated. >Newer concepts >assume LEO with active microwave focus tracking of the rectenna ground >array with phased array antennas integrated into the solar array. You have >to have sufficient amounts of hardware in the sky for continuous line of >sight presence. Active focus and tracking, via a LED, is part of the GEO project as well. steve From jbovard at his.com Tue Oct 2 05:46:25 2001 From: jbovard at his.com (Jim Bovard) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 08:46:25 -0400 Subject: 9/11 Debacle Spurs Blind Trust in Government Message-ID: Matt: Thought you might get a laugh out of the following piece. FreeMatt's Alerts have been probably the finest source of news & ideas I have seen since the 9/11 terrorist attacks. You have been putting out great stuff! take it easy, Jim Investor's Business Daily October 2, 2001 Government Trust Grows Despite Its Inability to Protect by JAMES BOVARD Like a phoenix rising from the ashes, Americans' trust in government is soaring after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. The number of people who trust the government to do the right thing has doubled since last year, and now is more than three times higher than in 1994. According to a Washington Post poll released on Sept. 27, 64% of Americans now "trust the government in Washington to do what is right" either "just about always" or "most of the time." Ronald Brownstein, a Los Angeles Times columnist, declared on Sept. 19: "At the moment the first fireball seared the crystalline Manhattan sky last week, the entire impulse to distrust government that has become so central to U.S. politics seemed instantly anachronistic." Brownstein's headline - "The Government, Once Scorned, Becomes Savior" - captured much of the establishment media's response to the attacks. It is puzzling that trust in government would soar after the biggest intelligence/law enforcement failure since the surprise attack on Pearl Harbor. At least in the first weeks after the attack, the federal government's prestige appears higher than at any time since the start of the Vietnam War. The Post poll also revealed that the disastrous attacks of Sept. 11 greatly increased Americans' confidence that government will protect them against terrorists. From 1995 through 1997, the results consistently showed that only between 35% and 37% of Americans had "a great deal" or "a good amount" of confidence that the feds would deter domestic attacks by terrorists. In hindsight, the public was far more prescient than were the Washington policy-makers who chose not to make defending against such attacks a high priority. In the aftermath of the Sept. 11 attacks, confidence in government's ability to deter terrorist attacks has soared - clocking in at 66%, almost double the percentage in the most recent previous Washington Post poll on this question in June 1997. The bigger the catastrophe, the more credulous many people seem to become. The worse government failed to protect people in the past, the more certain most people become that government will protect them in the future. Prominent liberals are capitalizing on the new mood to call for razing the restraints on government power. Wall Street Journal columnist Al Hunt says it's "time to declare a moratorium on government-bashing.... For the foreseeable future, the federal government is going to invest or spend more, regulate more and exercise more control over our lives," he rejoices. "There is no real debate over expansion (of government power) in general." Washington Post columnist Jim Hoagland snipped, "Ideologues on the right saw government as an evil to be rolled back." In a breathtaking leap of logic, he reasons: "The terror assaults on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon ... should profoundly shake the less-is-more philosophy that was the driving force for the tax-cut politics of Bush and conservative Republicans." But there is no evidence that Osama bin Laden targeted the U.S. because of ire over George Bush's proposal to reduce the estate tax. Hoagland's effort is reminiscent of liberal efforts after the assassination of John F. Kennedy to paint right-wingers everywhere as unindicted co-conspirators in Kennedy's killing. It is difficult to understand how the failures of the CIA, the FBI, and the Federal Aviation Administration could generate a blank check for all other federal agencies to exert more control over 270 million Americans. The success of the disastrous attacks of Sept. 11 were due far more to gross negligence and a shortage of competence than to a shortage of power. The federal government needs sufficient power to protect Americans against terrorist attacks and to harshly punish the perpetrators of the recent attacks. But such power shouldn't place a golden crown on the head of every would-be bureaucratic dictator, from the lowest village zoning enforcer to the most deluded federal agency chieftain. The blind glorification of government, now popular, puts almost all liberties at grave risk. At least for the time being, people have lost any interest in government's batting average - either for actually protecting citizens or for abusing power. The best hope for the survival and defense of liberty is that enough Americans will recall the type of history lessons that public schools never teach. At this time of national crisis, we must forget neither our political heritage nor the inherent limits of any governmental machinery. Government has a vital role in defending Americans from deadly foreign threats. But nothing that happened on Sept. 11 or since changed the fundamental nature of American government. James Bovard is the author of "Feeling Your Pain: The Explosion & Abuse of Government Power in the Clinton-Gore Years"(St. Martin's Press, 2000) and a policy advisor to the Future of Freedom Foundation. ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************** From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Tue Oct 2 06:36:42 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 09:36:42 -0400 Subject: Customs wants lists of all air passengers, foreign & domestic. Message-ID: "Obtaining information on passengers traveling within the United States also could be helpful to law enforcement." - Robert Bonner Remember, as far as Big Brother is concerned, the end justifies the means.... This scheme would be greatly facilitated by Gephardt & Ellison's proposed ID card/internal passport. Peter Trei ----------------------------------- http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011002/us/attacks_customs_2.html Tuesday October 2 3:33 AM ET Customs Wants Lists of Passengers By JEANNINE AVERSA, Associated Press Writer WASHINGTON (AP) - Airlines should be required to turn over their advance lists of passengers to screen for possible terrorists, the new Customs Service commissioner says. Robert Bonner, in an interview with The Associated Press, said Monday he first wants the passenger information for all international flights headed for the United States. Then, he said, Congress should consider requiring that such information be turned over for domestic flights as well. The Customs Service has access to about 85 percent of international flight passenger information under a voluntary program with the airlines. It has no information on domestic flights. ``I believe that it would be extremely valuable if there is a requirement that the airlines provide that information to Customs, to feed it into our data base and thereby identify potential terrorists or other suspects who make an attempt to enter the U.S.,'' Bonner said. [...] On air travel, the agency has received information voluntarily from airlines since 1988 on international air passengers, including names, birth dates, nationality and travel document numbers. The information is collected at the time of departure and transmitted to Customs while flights are en route to the United States. Ninety-five air carriers and two governments - Australia's and New Zealand's - transmit data on international soon-to-arrive air passengers to a Customs facility in Virginia. Air carriers from Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Pakistan and Egypt are among those that don't participate, Customs spokesman Dennis Murphy said. To force airlines to give international passenger information to Customs may require congressional action. ``For a foreign airline that would be unwilling to provide the information, we should simply deny the right to land in the United States,'' Bonner suggested. [...] Obtaining information on passengers traveling within the United States also could be helpful to law enforcement, he said. From mmotyka at lsil.com Tue Oct 2 10:01:12 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 10:01:12 -0700 Subject: Brinworld: citizens with speed-radar Message-ID: <3BB9F2D8.3CF1EA89@lsil.com> An Metet wrote : >Nomen wrote: >>> >>> According to collected data, the average speed in 30 mph zones ranged >>> from 35.5 to 46 mph. In the 35 mph zones, the average speed was about 43 >>> mph. The highest speed, clocked by Colonial Estates East Citizens on >>> Patrol group, was 62 mph in a 30 mph zone. >> >> Too bad this wasn't California. According to that states laws, if a >> survey shows that average driver speeds are substantially higher than >> the posted speed limit, the speed limit must be raised. It would have >> been a sweet irony if these busybodies had ended up with 60 MPH posted >> speed limits on their residential streets. > > And if that had been the response in my neighborhood, this busybody >would promptly start salting the roadway with vast numbers of 1" >roofing nails. Nobody has to put up with that bullshit. > On arterial roads this may be an interesting approach. In a residential neighborhood you're absolutlely right. Rather than flatten everyone's tires, ID the worst offenders then give them a chance to get it right. My dad has suggested leaving old strollers, bikes & kids toys around the streets. Deny knowledge or ownership. In our area the limit is 25, there are a couple of shitheads who regularly do 45. They deserve to be beaten to within an inch of their lives, if I thought I could get away with it...the same with the assholes who let their dogs run around loose. Oh to live out in the country again where an aggressive dog loose on your property could be called a threat to livestock... sorry, I'm pining... PS - about eartags for cows and sheeple^H^H - they only seem to mind for a few seconds then they go right back to chewing their cud... From anmetet at freedom.gmsociety.org Tue Oct 2 07:15:50 2001 From: anmetet at freedom.gmsociety.org (An Metet) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 10:15:50 -0400 Subject: Brinworld: citizens with speed-radar Message-ID: Nomen wrote: >> >> According to collected data, the average speed in 30 mph zones ranged >> from 35.5 to 46 mph. In the 35 mph zones, the average speed was about 43 >> mph. The highest speed, clocked by Colonial Estates East Citizens on >> Patrol group, was 62 mph in a 30 mph zone. > > Too bad this wasn't California. According to that states laws, if a > survey shows that average driver speeds are substantially higher than > the posted speed limit, the speed limit must be raised. It would have > been a sweet irony if these busybodies had ended up with 60 MPH posted > speed limits on their residential streets. And if that had been the response in my neighborhood, this busybody would promptly start salting the roadway with vast numbers of 1" roofing nails. Nobody has to put up with that bullshit. From localhost at toad.com Tue Oct 2 03:25:02 2001 From: localhost at toad.com () Date: 2 Oct 2001 10:25:02 -0000 Subject: Message-ID: <1002018302.54812.qmail@ech> _______________________________________________________________________ Powered by List Builder To unsubscribe follow the link: http://lb.bcentral.com/ex/manage/subscriberprefs?customerid=15891&subid=DBDFBBF6EB6D9344&msgnum=3 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3037 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mdurkee at vetrak.com Tue Oct 2 12:22:35 2001 From: mdurkee at vetrak.com (Mike Durkee) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 12:22:35 AM -0500 Subject: $995 R/T Vehicle Tracking System Message-ID: <200110020022.ETK5150@mail.qis.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 5014 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Oct 2 13:09:50 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 13:09:50 -0700 Subject: Congress drafts new "anti-terror" bill -- with expiration date In-Reply-To: <20011001204828.A25935@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011002130702.034e05f0@idiom.com> It's nice that the proposal has a sunset clause in it, to limit the amount of time that we're subject to the various good or bad half-baked suggestions and the various agencies' requests for powers they've always wanted. Expect that the worst parts will get extended indefinitely over the years :-) At 08:48 PM 10/01/2001 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: >----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh ----- > >From: Declan McCullagh >Subject: FC: Congress drafts new "anti-terror" bill -- with expiration date >To: politech at politechbot.com >Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 20:32:57 -0400 >X-URL: Politech is at http://www.politechbot.com/ > >Text of the new PATRIOT ("Provide Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept >and Obstruct Terrorism") Act: >http://www.well.com/~declan/sep11/patriot.act.100101.pdf > >Background on other legislation: >http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,47199,00.html >http://www.wartimeliberty.com/search.pl?topic=legislation > >-Declan > >********* > >http://www.wired.com/news/conflict/0,2100,47230,00.html > > Eavesdrop Now, Reassess Later? > By Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com) > 5:00 p.m. Oct. 1, 2001 PDT > > WASHINGTON -- House negotiators have drafted anti-terrorism > legislation to grant police unprecedented eavesdropping powers that > would automatically expire in two years. > > Leaders of the House Judiciary committee have crafted a new > anti-terrorism bill, called the Patriot Act, that includes nearly all > the surveillance abilities requested by President Bush -- but with a > sunset date of Dec. 31, 2003. A vote on the bill is expected this > week. > > A 122-page draft (PDF) of the Patriot Act, obtained by Wired News, > says that police could conduct Internet wiretaps in some situations > without court orders, that judges' ability to reject surveillance > requests would be sharply curtailed, and that the powers of a secret > federal court would be expanded. > > [...] > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- >POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list >You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. >Declan McCullagh's photographs are at http://www.mccullagh.org/ >To subscribe to Politech: http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html >This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >----- End forwarded message ----- From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Tue Oct 2 04:14:50 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 13:14:50 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: STILL OFF TOPIC: Re: America needs therapy In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011001202745.04a0b630@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Oct 2001, Steve Schear wrote: > At 01:25 PM 10/1/2001 -0400, James B. DiGriz wrote: > >Declan McCullagh wrote: > >A far more productive application of corporate welfare would be if that > >money were spent on engineering research and development of geosynchronous > >solar power microwave relays, fusion and advanced fission reactors, GEO is lousy: it's too far away, and it's packed already. Newer concepts assume LEO with active microwave focus tracking of the rectenna ground array with phased array antennas integrated into the solar array. You have to have sufficient amounts of hardware in the sky for continuous line of sight presence. > >permanent manned statons on the Moon, Mars, asteroids, etc. The planet and Luna is closest, and it's near enough for relativistic lag being low enough to allow teleoperation. Sending monkeys elsewhere would seem a later stage. > >its politics would likely be a lot cleaner. Just one beneficial side effect. > > Research in geosynchronous power satellites is still being funded. One > program, started in Japan but which is now also funded by NASA, uses 5.7 > GHz transmission to a ground based RECifying anTENNAs. Another project > intends to use IR lasers. My understanding is these projects are receiving > serious funding and prototypes should fly soon. Problem is high LEO launch costs. It would seem easier to build automated and teleoperate fabbing and (linear motor) launching facilities on Luna, and circularize orbit mostly by aerobraking. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 From mike0927 at tunisiamail.com Tue Oct 2 13:21:23 2001 From: mike0927 at tunisiamail.com (mike0927 at tunisiamail.com) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 13:21:23 Subject: ADV: Deep Search Engine Submissions Message-ID: <800.598037.650455@tunisiamail.com> Removal instructions below. I saw you listing on the internet. I work for a company that specializes in submitting web sites to search engines for maximum exposure. We can submit your entire web site (up to 50 pages) to over 400 search engines and directories for only $39.95 per month. No contracts or agreements! We are so confident or our services that we will let you cancel at anytime if you are unhappy with the results. Keyword (Meta Tag) optimization is included! We also do periodic progress reports that show you exactly where you are ranked in the major search engines. To get your web site in the fast lane call our toll free number: (888) 656-4665 Sincerely, Mike Johnson 888-656-4665 * All work is verified. To be removed call: 888-800-6339 x1377 From declan at well.com Tue Oct 2 10:30:28 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 13:30:28 -0400 Subject: FTC vs. First Amendment In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011002082931.00942580@pop.sprynet.com>; from honig@sprynet.com on Tue, Oct 02, 2001 at 08:29:31AM -0700 References: <3.0.6.32.20011002082931.00942580@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <20011002133028.A5282@cluebot.com> On Tue, Oct 02, 2001 at 08:29:31AM -0700, David Honig wrote: > So if someone goes to your site, the FTC can tell you how to > communicate? Or only if your site's DNS entry is hamming-close > to another? Or only if you're communicating unPC (e.g., erotica) > content? > > And how does "bombarding them with ads" differ from spam, which > has been 1st-amend. protected so far? Isn't the source of the FTC's authority its statutory power against unfair and deceptive practices? Seems as though you should be arguing against that law -- this is just the latest action taken under it. -Declan From ali_kharraz at caramail.com Tue Oct 2 13:41:17 2001 From: ali_kharraz at caramail.com (ali kharraz) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 13:41:17 GMT+1 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <1002022877028959@caramail.com> dear sirs: im verry happy to write you in order to help me i want to work so as to developped my metalitate to have the experience & more... my name is: ali_kharraz 1;68m 68kg i hold a diploma in informatique abnd in hairdressing i want to have the experience i speak arabic fench english deutsch... thank you ali kharraz bloc4N=B0105c.p.h-ihchach agadir-morocco my adv. is as a continuation: name: kharraz pronoun:alisex: male occupation: hairdresser high:1;70m weight:68kg languages: arabic fench english deutsch spanish hobbies:novelist;annimation;theater;beach ______________________________________________________ Boîte aux lettres - Caramail - http://www.caramail.com From sandfort at mindspring.com Tue Oct 2 13:53:39 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 13:53:39 -0700 Subject: PUBLIC VS. PRIVATE SECTOR Message-ID: C'punks, Fox News had a retired general on to discuss the purported billion dollar bounty on Bin Laden. His take was predictable. He was afraid that mercenaries would get in the way of government efforts to get OBL. Of course, he never consider that the government efforts might get in the way of the mercenaries nor that the two might have a community of interest in working together. I have been saying for 15 years that the solution to hijackings/kidnappings is bounty insurance. (A relatively small premium pays for a $10,000,000--or more--bounty on the heads of those who kidnap and kill an insured person.) Any insurance/entrepreneurial types out there who want to step up to the plate and put together such a policy? S a n d y P.S. Bounties are NOT "assassination politics." Those who believe they are the same are unclear on one or both concepts. From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Tue Oct 2 06:00:46 2001 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 14:00:46 +0100 Subject: STILL OFF TOPIC: Re: America needs therapy References: Message-ID: <3BB9BA7E.EF285A0C@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Eugene Leitl wrote: > Problem is high LEO launch costs. It would seem easier to build automated > and teleoperate fabbing and (linear motor) launching facilities on Luna, > and circularize orbit mostly by aerobraking. And if you can put up a bloody huge enough launcher on the moon, (use solar energy or nuclear - why not - it is one place in the system that we don't care about pollution) then you can send material back all the way to LEO by slingshot, and when it is captured by the facility at LEO, if you do it right, you can get a "free" boost in orbit because of greater orbital velocity of moon. So the more you accrete onto your LEO station the higher it flies. Why not make it the size of Wales? Hello Earth Station One. Well, 3 technically I suppose, Mir was One, the thing up there now is Two. Can't really count Skylab. There is a good fun fictional treatment of the lunar-driven space station idea by Donald Kingsbury "The Moon Goddess and the Son". Written before the Soviet Union fell. In the book they get done in by home-made cruise missiles built out of private planes & off-the-shelf, computers, autopilots, and GPS by Afghan refugees who studied aero engineering in Europe and the US. I think it might be worth re-reading. That and "Arslan" AKA "The Wind from Bukhara" by Madeleine (?) Engh. Ken Brown From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Tue Oct 2 05:12:09 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 14:12:09 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: SF development (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 16:30:17 -0400 From: Kirk Reiser To: debug at dk2net.dk Cc: speak-freely at fourmilab.ch Subject: Re: SF development I don't know what happened to Brian however as far as I know John Walker is still lurking. Development is anything but halted. Ron Bessem has a mixing version of the windows speak freely and Jonnas and I have a unix/linux version in cvs. Changes have not been happening quickly recently but that is because we are both busy on other projects. You are of course welcome to get involved and help with the development. There's plenty of room for everyone. cvs -d:pserver:anonymous at bumpy.braille.uwo.ca:/usr/src/CVS login password: please cvs -d:pserver:anonymous at bumpy.braille.uwo.ca:/usr/src/CVS co speak_freely (unix/linux) or win_sf for windows) Kirk * * * To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send E-mail containing the word "unsubscribe" in the message body (*not* as the Subject) to speak-freely-request at fourmilab.ch From newcust at advanceddating.com Tue Oct 2 14:13:16 2001 From: newcust at advanceddating.com (newcust at advanceddating.com) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 14:13:16 -0700 Subject: 78590253 New Dating Directory Service - AdvancedDating.com! Message-ID: Dear Sir or Madam: Find the information you are looking for from the most comprehensive dating resource available on the net today! Visit our global directory at http://www.advanceddating.com/dat_homeb.asp?emstr=324160445 and see sites covering topics in love, relationship, matchmaking, personals and more.. Webmasters, add your site for free and increase your traffic! To remove click: http://www.advanceddating.com/mkmEmRemCustb.asp?sid=324160445&eid=78590253 Regards, George, President of advanceddating.com Please copy and paste the above links to your browser if you have problems. This message is sent in compliance of the new email bill: SECTION 301. Sender: AdvancedDating.com, 343, Soquel Ave, Ste. 511, CA 95062 email: newcust at jumpdates.com. 'Per Section 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618, further transmissions to you by the sender of this email may be stopped by clicking on the link above or copying and pasting to the browser address box followed by return. From kmself at ix.netcom.com Tue Oct 2 15:17:22 2001 From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 15:17:22 -0700 Subject: STILL OFF TOPIC: Re: America needs therapy In-Reply-To: <3BB9E8FD.184891B3@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>; from k.brown@ccs.bbk.ac.uk on Tue, Oct 02, 2001 at 05:19:09PM +0100 References: <3BB9E8FD.184891B3@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20011002151722.H23872@navel.introspect> on Tue, Oct 02, 2001 at 05:19:09PM +0100, Ken Brown (k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk) wrote: > Once the catcher is high enough it ought to be possible to set the > launcher so that missed catches zip round Earth & head out. After all, > at Lunar OV it "wants" to be in a high orbit. Achieving re-entry > through Earth's atmosphere - sorry that should be "entry" it wasn't > here in the first place - needs some precision. The Heppenheimer book cited here previously posited a catcher fabricated out of bulletproof material, in lunar orbit. Of roughly conical form, and rotating about its axis, material launched via railgun from the lunar surface would be caught, then ferried to an L4 or L5 construction point. Heppenheimer's scenario envisioned using pellet shooters as reaction mass. Matter flux in orbit is such that operations could be carried out for extended periods of time with no perceptable increase in micrometeorite impacts. > And if the loads are anything smaller than a large truck, they ought not > to harm Earth anyway. Just a pretty light show for anyone watching the > skies. Nothing like as fast as natural meteors. For loosly aggregated masses, possibly even larger: they'd simply disintegrate in orbit. Though try to justify the low odds to the poor sap who *does* happen to be in the wrong place. > Anything big enough to do damage on Earth will be visible from Earth. Lunar material has an albedo of about 3%. Its radar signiture may be better. But there isn't currently a tracking system that's designed to detect large amounts of new orbit insertions. Yes, we track dead satellites, lost space hardware, and the odd glove. Hundreds of thousands of stone-tossings, I'm not so sure. > So it isn't at all a useful weapons launching system. If you are > trying to drop big hot rocks on cities, they will have time to run > away (low tech solution) Cities can't run. Their populations can. But it would take a day or two for a typical US conurbanation. The infrastructure remains particularly vulnerable. Better yet: water strike. If you're particularly devious, aim for an unstable undersea slope seismic region. Heinlein's good history here, particularly if you're into harsh mistresses. Peace. -- Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/ Land of the free Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature] From jal at abulafia.com Tue Oct 2 15:32:51 2001 From: jal at abulafia.com (Jamie Lawrence) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 15:32:51 -0700 Subject: America needs an enema... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011002095523.05129280@brillig.panix.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010930154543.039883b8@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011002152146.00b0e5b8@127.0.0.1> At 06:02 PM 10/2/2001 -0400, Duncan Frissell wrote: >At 09:41 PM 9/30/01 -0500, measl at mfn.org wrote: >>While I would *like* to think that your point is _completely_ valid and >>all-encompassing, I'm afraid I can't :-( Unfortunately, we are just as >>interested in "liberating" everyone else (read: forcing them do do as we >>please, but not necessariily as we do) on the planet. The U.S. has a >>rather intense ego problem. > >Actually that raises the interesting question- >That is, since all governments violate people's rights and some violate them more than others, would attacks on governments by outsiders be proper (as internal revolution presumably is)? > >My poli sci prof once said "after the 'Revolution' of 1845 in England, the Liberals imposed laissez-faire." Can one impose non-imposition? > >Is it wrong to kill a government? I had a debate with my poli-sci prof, too. I asked her, specifically, about anarchic institutions and the role of government. After a preamble about there being nothing to discuss if there weren't any government, she replied something like, "The role of government is to plot a vector towards the unobtainable, in hopes that people will reach for it. Bad regimes will throw lines at horror. Good ones throw them at the stars. If a set of people with the reins of power steer things the wrong way, it is indeed the duty of those governed to set them right." I am sure I misquoted her, so I am not including her name. On another note, I just rejoined the CP list after a rather long hiatus. I hope people will be just as abusive as when I left before. -j From mmotyka at lsil.com Tue Oct 2 15:39:28 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 15:39:28 -0700 Subject: America needs an enema... Message-ID: <3BBA4220.831CCF86@lsil.com> Duncan Frissell > >At 09:41 PM 9/30/01 -0500, measl at mfn.org wrote: >>While I would *like* to think that your point is _completely_ valid and >>all-encompassing, I'm afraid I can't :-( Unfortunately, we are just as >>interested in "liberating" everyone else (read: forcing them do do as we >>please, but not necessariily as we do) on the planet. The U.S. has a >>rather intense ego problem. > >Actually that raises the interesting question- > >If we could do so without stolen money and without collateral damage, would >it be moral to invade countries and kill their governments to prevent the >oppression of their people? > >That is, since all governments violate people's rights and some violate >them more than others, would attacks on governments by outsiders be proper >(as internal revolution presumably is)? > >My poli sci prof once said "after the 'Revolution' of 1845 in England, the >Liberals imposed laissez-faire." Can one impose non-imposition? > >Is it wrong to kill a government? > >Sic Semper Tyrannis. > >DCF > What does the concept of right and wrong have to do with it? I would say that a more relevant phrasing of the question is one that needs to be answered on a case by case basis : is it possible to kill that particular government? What's in it for the aggressor? Access to rare earths, risk reduction, a warm-water port, a Pepsi factory, supermodels? I doubt that any 3rd party would incur the expense of killing an entire government completely out of a sense of right unless that cost were extremely small - pocket change, so to speak. Mike From declan at well.com Tue Oct 2 13:59:54 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 16:59:54 -0400 Subject: Congress drafts new "anti-terror" bill -- with expiration date In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20011002130702.034e05f0@idiom.com>; from bill.stewart@pobox.com on Tue, Oct 02, 2001 at 01:09:50PM -0700 References: <20011001204828.A25935@cluebot.com> <5.0.2.1.1.20011002130702.034e05f0@idiom.com> Message-ID: <20011002165954.A11122@cluebot.com> On Tue, Oct 02, 2001 at 01:09:50PM -0700, Bill Stewart wrote: > It's nice that the proposal has a sunset clause in it, > to limit the amount of time that we're subject to the > various good or bad half-baked suggestions and the various > agencies' requests for powers they've always wanted. > Expect that the worst parts will get extended indefinitely over the years :-) If I recall properly -- read the text of the bill to check me here -- the bill explicitly invites the Prez to submit his request for an extension in 2 yrs. -Declan From Anti_Immigration-owner at yahoogroups.com Tue Oct 2 10:16:25 2001 From: Anti_Immigration-owner at yahoogroups.com (Anti_Immigration Moderator) Date: 2 Oct 2001 17:16:25 -0000 Subject: File - "BEST OF" ANTI_IMMIGRATION Message-ID: <1002042985.641.90958.c2@yahoogroups.com> TABLE OF CONTENTS OF ARTICLES IN THIS "BEST OF" ANTI-IMMIGRATION RECENT EMAILS 1 - A personal letter from the Moderator regarding Immigration Policy 2 - A Personal Note from Moderator regarding Multi-culturalism. 3 - Religious Jews in Israel are Anti-immigration, Jews in USA pro-immigration 4 - A Comanche Patriot Tries to Save the White Man 5 - Mexico's plans for its newest colony: Inevitable response to U.S. abdication 6 - A LIST OF WEBSITES DEALING WITH IMMIGRATION ISSUES 7 - NYTimes: New Shelter Seeks to Better Accommodate Asylum-Seeking Families +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Dear Friends and subscribers to the Anti-Immigration Email list, I am opposed to the massive waves of immigrants that our national immigration policy is currently allowing. Why? Because we are being overwhelmed by such large numbers of immigrants and they are not joining our churches and they are not melting into our Christian culture. Friends, my highest goal is that we remain a Christian nation with liberty and justice for all. The Bible states that "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is Liberty." I believe that the source of America's greatness and the source of America's wealth and the source of America's liberties is The Gospel of Jesus Christ. I believe that if America continues down the path to secularization and rejection of God, then we will lose our freedoms, lose our prosperity, suffer great tribulation, become slaves and ultimately be destroyed as a nation. Taking all of this into consideration I am not opposed to reasonable but much smaller numbers of immigrants who meet the following list of stipulations. First, I would demand that potential immigrants read, write and speak English proficiently at least at a 6th grade level. Rigorous tests should be designed and administered at American Embassy's for the purpose eliminating applicants who do not know how to read, write and speak English proficiently. Second, they must be "selected" or chosen from the upper income and or more highly educated classes in the nation that they hail from. Why? Because we want our immigration policy to strengthen our nation and thus we want ONLY the best intellectuals and most successful types of people to be eligible for immigration into America. Currently we are taking in millions of low IQ, poorly educated third world people with no skills and no chance of rising in or contributing to the American economy. Did you know that? Is that the immigration policy that you want for your nation? Third potential immigrants must be well educated and have a useful University degree in a field such as medicine or engineering, or else they must have a high level of skill in an employable field such as engine repair, carpentry or plumbing. Potential immigrants must, for example, be computer programmers, electrician's or have some other such skill that is useful and makes them employable in the American economy. Does that make sense to you or do you think it is a good national policy that we allow millions of immigrants from third world nations who cannot speak English and have no skills? Fourth I would demand that they have an American sponsor who is reasonably financially successful and could support them during their transition to self reliance. Fifth, I would make them and their family ineligible for any kind of government benefits, whether welfare and or social security, Medical care, housing allowance, food stamps, University or college scholarships from any government supported agency of any kind until they have lived and worked in America for at least 21 years. Sixth and most important of all, I would demand that in order to be eligible to obtain a visa to emigrate to America that potential immigrants must be a "Christian," any kind of "Christian." Using and defining the term "Christian" in the broadest sense possible. Potential Immigrants must Orthodox, Anglican, Catholic or Protestant, or even members of western "Christian" cults such as the Morman church or Jehovah Witness'es. Potential immigrants must prove this with documentable evidence of faithful membership in such a church in their own nation for at least 10 years prior to their application to emigrate to America. Muslims, Buddhists, Hindi's, Taoist's, Ba'hai's, Pagan's, Wiccan Witches or those who practice Witchcraft or Shamanism, Atheists, Agnostic's and all members of all other manifestly non-Christian religions should be absolutely, permanently and strictly denied any and all rights to emigrate to America. Friend, Will you agree with me that we want our immigration policy to make our nation stronger, not weaker? Will you agree with me that anti-Christian Multi-culturalism is weakening our nation? Will you agree with me that our immigration policy has to be modified, because as it currently stands it is harming more than it is strengthening our nation? Please open your spiritual eyes and observe the wisdom of what I am proposing. I want to make America stronger because I believe that a strong America is a benefit to advancing the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Can you imagine the wonderful implications for the Gospel of Jesus Christ if America were to grow stronger and stronger and wealthier in comparison to the nations of the world and if America at the same time became a more moral and more righteous and thoroughly Christian nation. Can you imagine how our missionaries in other nations would be benefited if America became a strong, righteous, moral, exceedingly wealthy and militarily dominant nation? Friend, are you in agreement with me? Do you agree with me that we need a drastic and immediate change in our immigration policy in America? Can you see how important it is to keep America strong? Can you see how our enemies have been using immigration policy to weaken our nation and turn us further away from Christ? I am sincerely yours, Bob from Michigan. PS - Please tell your friends and family about this email list. Send me their names and email address'es and I will invite them to join this email list. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Anti_Immigration Subscribe: Anti_Immigration-subscribe at yahoogroups.com Post message: Anti_Immigration at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: Anti_Immigration-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com List owner: Anti_Immigration-owner at yahoogroups.com My Email address: anti_immigration_man at yahoo.com My Email address: BobFromMichigan74 at Hotmail.com http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ A Personal Note from moderator of Anti-immigration list regarding Multi-culturalism. In Quebec Canada there are two groups of people who hate each other. The French and the English. Why do they hate each other? One reason, the diffence in their language and culture. In the article below we see another example of multi-culturalism NOT working. Where? In Israel. The root word of culture is CULT. The word cult refers to a religion. (Remember, one man's cult is another man's religion). Liberals in America and around the world are forcing Multi-culturalism upon the western nations. Let me say in no un-certain terms, WE DO NOT WANT MULTI-CULTURALISM. Multi-culturalism is a recipe for disaster. Multi-culturalism means that Christianity will no longer be the dominant religious group in Western nations. Multi-culturalism means that western nations will be subdivided into tiny little groups that all hate one another. Multi-culturalism means that western nations will be Balkanized into tiny subdivided religious groups, ethnic groups and language groups which are forever warring with each other over the monetary crumbs from the socialist government nipples. We must stop immigration now or America may very well likely be forever changed for the worse. It is a fact that immigrants are far more likely to vote for the Liberal candidate who is promising to give him free education, free health care and free everything. This is how America is going to be destroyed and turned into a socialist slave state if we do not get our immigration policy under control. In the past, our strength as a nation has been our homogeneity, our shared religion, shared language and shared culture. Wake up your friends. Ask people to join this email list. Sincerely Yours, Bob from Michigan.] +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Religious Jews in Israel are Anti-immigration, Jews in USA pro-immigration NOTE FROM MODERATOR: I have a question for your consideration... Why do the religious Jews in Israel oppose immigration laws that will increase diversity? And why do Jews in the USA support immigration laws in America to "increase diversity"? The religious Jews in Israel are strongly Anti-immigration. The Jews in America are strongly Pro-immigration. Why? See article below: Israelis Debate Immigration Laws By MARK LAVIE Associated Press Writer JERUSALEM (AP) -- The bedrock of the Jewish state-a law that grants Israeli citizenship to anyone with a Jewish grandparent-is coming under the harshest attack in years, amid allegations it has enabled hundreds of thousands of non-Jews to immigrate. Ultra-Orthodox Jews, with the support of some government officials, proposed this week that the Law of Return be tightened. "Even sacred cows are slaughtered sometimes," Rahamim Malul, a lawmaker from the religious Shas party, asserted Monday. Prime Minister Ehud Barak staunchly opposes restricting immigration, angrily insisting at a Cabinet session Sunday that the law would not be amended as long as he is prime minister. The debate reflects the disagreement between secular Zionists and observant Jews about what Israel should look like. For the religious, the most important value is to preserve the Jewish character of Israel, while Zionists believe immigration should be encouraged at all costs. The recent debate was triggered by figures showing that non-Jews outnumbered Jews, 55 percent to 45 percent, among immigrants from the former Soviet Union in the first three months of 1999. Rabbis have complained that the influx of non-Jews has led to a proliferation of butcher shops selling pork, despite religious laws that prohibit Jews from eating it. Others warn that non-Jews from the former Soviet Union, estimated at 225,000 of Israel's 6 million citizens, are amassing increasing political clout. "The loopholes in the law must be closed," warned Malul, "so that the state will not turn into a country where a large percentage of its citizens are gentiles." The Law of Return was conceived five decades ago, when Israel was a poor, besieged, fledgling nation where survivors of Holocaust-ravaged Europe and Jews from Arab countries sought shelter. Now that Israel is a prosperous country with a per capita income on a European scale, some fear non-Jews from economically depressed areas may be lured by generous government benefits for newcomers. Faced with the statistics, officials in the Ministry of Immigrant Absorption have drawn up a proposal for restricting non-Jewish immigration. It aims at reducing the number of non-Jewish descendants who can gain automatic citizenship because of a distant Jewish ancestor. However, ministry spokeswoman Michal Aharoni said the proposal "will never be the policy of the ministry." The minister for immigrant absorption, Yuli Tamir, opposes restrictions on immigration. Cabinet Minister Haim Ramon said the Law of Return is the basis of the Jewish state, offering a home to Jews "in the wide definition and not the narrow religious definition." Under religious law, a person is a Jew if his mother is Jewish. The Law of Return recognizes a much wider category as eligible for citizenship. Ramon said experience shows that even those who are technically non-Jewish "become good Jews in a few years." Yet even some immigrants from the former Soviet Union feel it is time to make changes. Yuri Stern, a member of parliament from Israel Beiteinu, a party representing the immigrants, said those with no link to the Jewish people must be stopped from immigrating. Though his party stands to benefit from additional immigrant votes, Jewish or not, Stern warned that Israel could face a demographic problem if no changes are made. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ A Comanche Patriot Tries to Save the White Man FrontPageMagazine.com http://www.frontpagemag.com/poesnotepad/2001/pn01-17-01.htm "I'M A PATRIOT because I love and value what America stands for," says Dr. David A. Yeagley, a Comanche Indian and humanities professor at Oklahoma State University in Oklahoma City. "I value freedom, and I'm willing to fight for it." Next month, Yeagley takes his fight to the state legislature, which will consider his proposal to add an optional patriotism course to Oklahoma's high school curriculum. Governor Frank Keating has endorsed the plan. Yeagley dreams of taking his course national. "Patriotism has to be taught," he says. "It doesn't just grow out of the ground." Up to now, U.S. schools have done an exceptionally poor job of teaching it. A Zogby poll taken in June 2000 showed that nearly one third of American college students are not proud to be Americans. "As an Indian, I feel it is my sacred honor to save the white man again, this time, from himself," says Yeagley, who holds a divinity degree from Yale. "Before he gives this country away, thus defeating me twice, I want to try to save what he built out of my land." Indians saved the white man before, says Yeagley, when they helped the first settlers get established. Now they must save him again, this time from political correctness. "White guilt is the biggest flaw in the American psyche," warns Yeagley. As a Comanche, Yeagley feels no guilt over his ancestors' deeds. "They were the lords of the south plains," he says. "They kicked out all the other Indians. They had no tolerance for other Indians, no tolerance for white people, no tolerance for anybody except themselves." Comanche elders have been instilling that warrior spirit in their young, for centuries, through the stories and customs of their ancestors. Unfortunately, says Yeagley, white Americans have failed to do the same. The fighting spirit that built this country has been allowed to fade. The problem became clear to him last summer, when he assigned his class to debate the question of whether or not patriotism should be taught in school. After a two-hour discussion, the student jury voted no. "They were afraid that skinheads and militia people would somehow get control of it," says Yeagley. Beyond such scare images from the media, his students had little concept of patriotism. Yeagley made up his mind to design a course that would fill the gap. "America has held out this offer of charity for all, that everyone, including minorities, can have a better life," says Yeagley. "But if you want to be kind to people and charitable and indulgent, you have to do it from a position of strength, otherwise you lose the ability to do any good for anybody." In their willingness to indulge even the most extreme demands of the Jesse Jackson crowd, white Americans are slowly giving up their strength, warns Yeagley. "I think it's demonstrable that, historically speaking, the most people get the best deal under this system," says Yeagley. "I'm trying to come to the rescue here and say to the white man, look, don't destroy everything you have. If you don't want the country, give it back to me! Don't give it away to someone else." Born of a Comanche mother and a white father, Yeagley has always been fascinated by the question of identity. "I was curious to know what makes a people a nation," he says. Yeagley concluded that love is at the root of it. "It's difficult to love an abstract idea, especially for young people. You love real things, the land, the people, the language, the food. Basic things." Yeagley wants to focus on those basic things in his proposed course, teaching a simple love and respect for one's people and culture. "Being willing to take your grocery cart back into the store instead of leaving it in front of somebody's car, I think that's patriotic," he says. During Yeagley's classroom debate over patriotism last summer, one young man confessed, "Dr. Yeagley, I don't think we have a clue of what you're talking about. When I think of patriotism, all I can think of is my grandfather who fought in World War II. I think of old people." Maybe that's not such a bad thing, Yeagley suggests. It is the elders who preserve the stories of the tribe. "If an Indian wants to know what it means to be Indian, he asks his elders," says Yeagley. "If you want to know what it means to be patriotic American, ask your grandfather. He'll tell you." +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ http://savetheusa.net/mexiplan.html MEXICO'S PLANS FOR ITS NEWEST COLONY: INEVITABLE RESPONSE TO U.S. ABDICATION Mexico's recent presidential election may have profoundly altered the U.S. political scene. A Los Angeles businessman and Mexican citizen, Eddie Varon Levy, 42, a member of the Institutional Revolutionary Party (PRI), living and working in the United States (resident alien) has apparently become the first person living outside Mexico to be elected to Mexico's Congress. Even though his PRI party lost the historic July 2 election, Levy appears to have won a congressional seat. A Sunday, July 9, 2000 Miami Herald Article reported that the final vote results will be released next week and Levy may be a winner for one of approximately 50 PRI-controlled seats garnered by vote apportionment. If Levy has sufficient votes for a seat, he will take that seat when Mexico's Congress convenes September 1. Says Varon Levy, "It's a breakthrough. I am going to be in the trenches fighting for Mexicans living abroad." Mr. Levy added that he plans to commute between Los Angeles and Mexico City for the Tuesday through Thursday congressional sessions. Mr. Levy was one of three Mexican citizens/U.S. residents running for political office in Mexico's presidential election. Winning presidential candidate Vincent Fox's Democratic Revolution Party (PRD) ran 55-year-old Jose Jacques Medina of Los Angeles and 33-year- old Raul Ross Pineda of Chicago as its candidates for the 200 at- large Mexican congress seats. Mr. Ross runs the Mexican affairs section of the Chicago area American Friends Service Committee. Had Mr. Pineda won, regular commutes to Mexico City for the weekly congressional sessions would have been necessary. His PRI party would also have expected him to informally represent some 10 million Mexicans -- 10 percent of all Mexicans -- living in the United States. Early returns suggest that at least two of the expatriate candidates didn't receive enough votes. However, their candidacies and the fact that Mexican presidential candidates were campaigning in Los Angeles and Chicago show how important the growing expatriate Mexican population in the United States has become to Mexico's political scene. At this Los Angeles Times article readers can learn about the third Mexican congressional candidate, Eagle Rock resident Jose Jacques Medina who recently stated, "Now I'm here and I'm going to be here, fighting for my people," ... "It's my destiny, the U.S." Mr. Medina is an attorney, international AFL-CIO representative and behind-the- scenes player in the Mexican immigrant community through his nonprofit organization, Comite Pro-Union. Comite provides legal assistance on immigration problems and other issues. Last year he gained the right to become a U.S. citizen, and plans to file the papers soon. All three of these Mexican expatriates are very much aware of the AZTLAN plan - the Latin intention to conquer the seven U.S. southwest states. (California licensed) Attorney Jose Jacques Medina is very much in favor of AZTLAN. It is outrageous that any individual holding an office of trust (attorneys are court officers -- positions of trust) could attain or retain citizenship of the country he/she is openly trying to undermine. Fortunately, a remedy does exist and is described at end of this article. Mexican Racists Unafraid To Flaunt It ... Comments by prominent Mexican American public officials, activists and a Mexican newspaper: August�n Cebada, Brown Berets: "Go back to Boston! Go back to Plymouth Rock, Pilgrims! Get out! We are the future. You are old and tired. Go on. We have beaten you. Leave like beaten rats. You old white people. It is your duty to die. ..... Through love of having children, we are going to take over." Richard Alatorre, Los Angeles City Council: "They're afraid we're going to take over the governmental institutions and other institutions. They're right. We will take them over. .... We are here to stay." Professor Jose Angel Gutierrez, Director of Mexican-American Studies Center, University of Texas at Arlington and founder in 1967 of the Marxist/Leninist Mexican American Youth Organization: "We have an aging white America. They are not making babies. They are dying. The explosion is in our population. ..... I love it. They are shitting in their pants with fear. I love it." And since 1970, he has professed, "Our devil has pale skin and blue eyes." Art Torres, Chairman of the California Democratic Party: "Remember 187 (proposition to deny taxpayer funds for services to non citizens) is the last gasp of White America in California!" and "Que Viva La Causa!" Long Live our Cause!). Gloria Molina, Los Angeles County Supervisor: "We are politicizing every single one of these new citizens that are becoming citizens of this country.... I gotta tell you that a lot of people are saying, "I'm going to go out there and vote because I want to pay them back." Mario Obledo, California Coalition of Hispanic Organizations and California State Secretary of Health, Education and Welfare under Jerry Brown, also awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom by Bill Clinton. "California is going to be a Hispanic state. Anyone who doesn't like it should leave." Jose Pescador Osu�a, Mexican Consul General We are practicing "La Reconquista" in California." Professor Fernando Guerra, Loyola Marymount University: "We need to avoid a white backlash by using codes understood by Latinos...." (emphasis added) Xavier Hermosillo, a Los Angeles radio talk show host In 1993, proclaimed on the CBS 48 Hours show that Mexican-Americans were taking political control of the "former Mexican colony, California ... house by house, block by block". Excelsior - The national newspaper of Mexico "The American Southwest ("AZTLAN") seems to be slowly returning to the jurisdiction of Mexico without firing a single shot." In a well-written Mankind Quarterly article, The Deconstruction of America, by Joseph Fallon, public officials Antonio Villaraigosa, majority leader of the California State Assembly and Art Torres, Chairman of the California Democratic Party, speakers at the "Latino Leadership Summit Response to Prop 187" are mentioned for their apparent agreement with many declarations uttered at the meeting. Neither Villaraigosa nor Torres repudiated these comments: "English should be a foreign language"; "We are hostages in our own land, prisoners of war"; "We live under occupying alien force."; "We live in the annexed territories of AZTLAN"; and "We're in a state of war ... a vicious threat to our existence". And neither man condemned the repeated calls for the establishment of an independent country of Aztlan or the references to this country as "AmeriKKKa" and the "United Snakes of America". SierraTimes.com has a picture of Mexicans burning the U.S. flag in L.A. The people of the United States should take such actions, comments and events seriously. They will be increasing. A Weapon For Those Brave Enough To Wield It ... Article I, Section 9, Paragraph 8 of our Constitution prohibits government officers and employees from committing treason and bribery, and from taking office or pay from a foreign state "without the consent of Congress." However, no penalty is provided for such derelictions. In May of 1810, Congress overwhelmingly voted to send to the States, a proposed Titles of Nobility Amendment to the Constitution: "If any citizen of the United States shall accept, claim, receive, or retain any title of nobility or honour, or shall without the consent of Congress, accept and retain any present, pension, office, or emolument of any kind whatever, from any emperor, king, prince, or foreign power, such person shall cease to be a citizen of the United States, and shall be incapable of holding any office of trust or profit under them, or either of them." At that time there were 17 states in the union and ratification by 13 states was needed for passage. On March 12, 1819, the last of the required 13 affirmations was attained when the Virginia Assembly (Legislature) voted to publish its "Revised Codes of the Laws of Virginia". This culminated a two year effort by that State's foremost legal and legislative authorities. The Revised Codes book contains the Constitution of the United States and amendments, including the Titles of Nobility amendment. Few citizens of the United States know about ! th! ! is amendment because it has been so well ignored, with claims that it did not achieve ratification. The story of the research which found evidence to the contrary is a fascinating tale and can be found at the following URLs: The Patriots' Missing 13th Amendment Pages Barefoot Bob Hardison's Missing Thirteenth Amendment page Demon of Discord: The Ratification and Suppression of the Original Thirteenth The Project 13 Home Page We invite you to visit these sites and/or our website: SAVE THE USA! Alan & Suzanne Nevling, nevling at e..., July 11, 2000 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ A LIST OF SOME WEBSITES DEALING WITH IMMIGRATION http://www.americanpatrol.com/ vct at a... http://www.wakeupordie.com/ http://www.amren.com/index.html http://www.fairus.org/ http://www.usdoj.gov/ins/ http://www.census.gov/ http://www.americanworker.org/ http://migration.ucdavis.edu/ http://www.utexas.edu/lbj/uscir http://www.tscpress.com/ http://www.netcom.com/~jimrobb/ http://www.ceousa.org/ http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/pub/Immigration/Index.html http://www.numbersusa.com/ http://www.projectusa.com/ http://www.zazona.com/shameh1b http://www.ilw.com/ http://www.cis.org/ http://www.numbersusa.com/home.html http://www.anu.org/newsservice.html http://www.numbersusa.com/home.html http://www.sqlife.org/ http://www.adnc.com/web/bstf http://www.h1-b-visa.com/ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Reference: http://www.nationalhomeless.org/causes.html Subject article boasts new shelter to "better accommodate" asylum-seeking familes. Reference was not mentioned in the New York Times article - reference provides a fact sheet on the homeless in the United States... which indicates that in 1997 14.6 million Americans earned LESS THAN HALF of the poverty rate. This article is from NYTimes.com New Shelter Seeks to Better Accommodate Asylum-Seeking Families By ERIC SCHMITT EESPORT, Pa., June 12 - Just off a tree-lined country lane nestled among lush rolling hills, the Immigration and Naturalization Service is trying to put a kinder, gentler face on a piece of its oft-maligned system of jails and detention centers that house 20,000 undocumented immigrants every day. Responding to a growing number of families who are entering the United States illegally, the immigration service has opened a new shelter in a converted nursing home here exclusively for asylum-seeking families fleeing persecution and death threats in their strife-torn native countries. Until now, the immigration service has routinely put hundreds of illegal immigrant families in hotel rooms, posting armed guards outside, or split up families, segregating men, women and children in different detention centers across the country. The dormitory-style Family Shelter Care center here, 60 miles northwest of Philadelphia, allows as many as 40 mothers, fathers and children from Albania to Yugoslavia to stay together while their claims for asylum are processed. While they wait, school-age children attend classes. Their parents learn the ways of the United States, from cashing a check to running a washing machine. Family members receive medical and dental care, and three meals a day. "In my country, it is a question of your race, of where you came from," a 32-year-old businessman from Rwanda said, lifting his pant leg and shirt to reveal scars that he said were inflicted when he was tortured in jail in his homeland. "Here, it's good," he said in an interview in French, speaking on condition that his name and family details would not be disclosed to protect relatives in Rwanda. "There is justice here and security." As a pilot program, the shelter has worked well enough since it started in March that officials plan to open others for all types of illegal immigrant families in Texas and the Chicago area, and perhaps the West Coast, in the coming months. The shelter stands out in a detention system that has gained notoriety from scores of complaints and lawsuits alleging physical and mental abuse of immigrants detained in 300 county jails and other detention centers nationwide. The immigration service finally issued national standards for the treatment of its detainees earlier this year. At the one-story brick building here, there are no bars on windows. Most doors are unlocked. "Residents," as immigration officials call the immigrants, wear photo identification cards around their necks, but no uniforms. But the hospitality goes only so far. Asylum-seekers are closely supervised and are not allowed to leave the center without an escort. And there have been growing pains with staff members who have training in law enforcement, not family dynamics, and who speak few, if any, foreign languages. Advocates for immigrants say, for example, that shelter officials are sometimes reluctant to use a $160-an-hour interpreter-by-phone service to resolve miscommunications. The culture clash has led to some tense moments, the advocates say. Shortly after the center opened, a Lebanese woman went on a two-day hunger strike to protest what she said was the staff's insensitivity to Muslims, said Charu Newhouse al- Sahli, who was a program coordinator with the Detention Resource Project, an advocacy organization in Philadelphia that assists asylum- seekers here. Immigration service officials said they had no reports of any protest. "When you have individuals in custody, issues will arise over and over again," said John J. Pogash, the agency's national juvenile coordinator. "But the overall high rating of the program is tied to how quickly those issues are overcome." The agency has contracted with Berks County, Pa., which operates another shelter for unaccompanied immigrant children in the same building, to run the family shelter. It costs the federal government $168.48 a resident per day. As of early June, the shelter had housed a total of 105 people, roughly half children and half adults, with slightly more women than men. The families are screened to ensure smugglers posing as loving couples with kids are not sent here. About 5,000 people taken in immigration service custody each year seek asylum. The asylum seekers chosen for the family shelter were screened at the airport where they entered the United States, and sent here if space was available. The families' cultural diversity and range of sophistication have challenged shelter officials. Asylum seekers have come from a dozen countries, from affluent professionals from Colombia with cellular phones to uneducated immigrants from other countries who had never used a flush toilet. Most families are here for only two to three weeks. So far all the immigrants here have persuaded asylum officers they have a "credible fear" they will be persecuted or worse if they return home, and have been released to sponsors in the community pending formal asylum hearings. Residents' lives revolve around a 110-foot-long corridor decorated with hanging plants and posters. Small group bedrooms and communal bathrooms - one for men, another for women - flank the hallway. Sleeping quarters are separated by sex - men and women and children older than 7, usually four to a room. Children under 7 may sleep in one of their parent's rooms. At night, state law requires shelter workers to check on all residents every 15 minutes. In recreation rooms along the corridor, art supplies, chess boards, computers, a pool table and stacks of toys await the children. But during a three-hour visit, most of the younger children not in class joined virtually all of the adults on couches watching television. The immigrants' days are tightly structured: Up at 7 a.m., breakfast at 7:45, classes for schoolchildren and adults. Then lunch at 1, an hour of outdoor activity, and dinner at 5:15. Children must be in bed with lights out at 9:30; adults at 11 p.m. Children have aerobics classes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, and take an occasional field trip to amusement parks and museums in Philadelphia, officials said. Outdoor volleyball and basketball courts are under construction. From Anti_Immigration-owner at yahoogroups.com Tue Oct 2 10:16:26 2001 From: Anti_Immigration-owner at yahoogroups.com (Anti_Immigration Moderator) Date: 2 Oct 2001 17:16:26 -0000 Subject: File - Immigration, 6 Stipulations, Multi-Culturalism Message-ID: <1002042986.1359.90958.c2@yahoogroups.com> Immigration Policy re 6 Stipulations, A Christian Nation, Multi-Culturalism Dear Friends and subscribers to the Anti-Immigration Email list, I am opposed to the massive waves of immigrants that our national immigration policy is currently allowing. Why? Because we are being overwhelmed by such large numbers of immigrants and they are not joining our churches and they are not melting into our Christian culture. Friends, my highest goal is that we remain a Christian nation with liberty and justice for all. The Bible states that "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is Liberty." I believe that the source of America's greatness and the source of America's wealth and the source of America's liberties is The Gospel of Jesus Christ. I believe that if America continues down the path to secularization and rejection of God, then we will lose our freedoms, lose our prosperity, suffer great tribulation, become slaves and ultimately be destroyed as a nation. Taking all of this into consideration I am not opposed to reasonable but much smaller numbers of immigrants who meet the following list of stipulations. First, I would demand that potential immigrants read, write and speak English proficiently at least at a 6th grade level. Rigorous tests should be designed and administered at American Embassy�s for the purpose eliminating applicants who do not know how to read, write and speak English proficiently. Second, they must be "selected" or chosen from the upper income and or more highly educated classes in the nation that they hail from. Why? Because we want our immigration policy to strengthen our nation and thus we want ONLY the best intellectuals and most successful types of people to be eligible for immigration into America. Third potential immigrants must either be well educated and have a useful University degree in a field such as medicine or engineering, or else they must have a high level of skill in an employable field such as engine repair, carpentry or plumbing. Potential immigrants must, for example, be computer programmers, electrician's or have some other such skill that is useful and makes them employable in the American economy. Fourth I would demand that they have an American sponsor who is reasonably financially successful and could support them during their transition to self reliance. Fifth, I would make them and their family ineligible for any kind of government benefits, whether welfare and or social security, Medical care, housing allowance, food stamps, University or college scholarships from any government supported agency of any kind until they have lived and worked in America for at least 21 years. Sixth and most important of all, I would demand that in order to be eligible to obtain a visa to emigrate to America that potential immigrants must be a "Christian," any kind of "Christian." Using and defining the term "Christian" in the broadest sense possible. Potential Immigrants must Orthodox, Anglican, Catholic or Protestant, or even members of western "Christian" cults such as the Morman church or Jehovah Witness'es. Potential immigrants must prove this with documentable evidence of faithful membership in such a church in their own nation for at least 10 years prior to their application to emigrate to America. Muslims, Buddhists, Hindi's, Taoist's, Ba'hai's, Pagan's, Wiccan Witches or those who practice Witchcraft or Shamanism, Atheists, Agnostic's and all members of all other manifestly non-Christian religions should be absolutely, permanently and strictly denied any and all rights to emigrate to America. Friend, Will you agree with me that we want our immigration policy to make our nation stronger, not weaker? Will you agree with me that anti-Christian Multi-culturalism is weakening our nation? Will you agree with me that our immigration policy has to be modified, because as it currently stands it is harming more than it is strengthening our nation? Please open your spiritual eyes and observe the wisdom of what I am proposing. I want to make America stronger because I believe that a strong America is a benefit to advancing the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Can you imagine the wonderful implications for the Gospel of Jesus Christ if America were to grow stronger and stronger and wealthier in comparison to the nations of the world and if America at the same time became a more moral and more righteous and thoroughly Christian nation. Can you imagine how our missionaries in other nations would be benefited if America became a strong, righteous, moral, exceedingly wealthy and militarily dominant nation? Friend, are you in agreement with me? Do you agree with me that we need a drastic and immediate change in our immigration policy in America? Can you see how important it is to keep America strong? Can you see how our enemies have been using immigration policy to weaken our nation and turn us further away from Christ? I am sincerely yours, Bob from Michigan. PS - Please tell your friends and family about this email list. Send me their names and email address'es and I will invite them to join this email list. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Anti_Immigration Post message: Anti_Immigration at yahoogroups.com Subscribe: Anti_Immigration-subscribe at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: Anti_Immigration-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com List owner: Anti_Immigration-owner at yahoogroups.com My Email address: anti_immigration_man at yahoo.com My Email address: BobFromMichigan74 at Hotmail.com Note from moderator of Anti-immigration list: In Quebec Canada there are two groups of people who hate each other. The French and the English. Why do they hate each other? One reason, the diffence in their language and culture. In the article below we see another example of multi-culturalism NOT working. Where? In Mexico. The root word of culture is CULT. The word cult refers to a religion. (Remember, one man's cult is another man's religion). Liberals in America and around the world are forcing Multi-culturalism upon the western nations. Let me say in no un-certain terms, WE DO NOT WANT MULTI-CULTURALISM. Multi-culturalism is a recipe for disaster. Multi-culturalism means that Christianity will no longer be the dominant religious group in Western nations. Multi-culturalism means that western nations will be subdivided into tiny little groups that all hate one another. Multi-culturalism means that western nations will be Balkanized into tiny subdivided religious groups, ethnic groups and language groups which are forever warring with each other over the monetary crumbs from the socialist government nipples. We must stop immigration now or America may very well likely be forever changed for the worse. It is a fact that immigrants are far more likely to vote for the Liberal candidate who is promising to give him free education, free health care and free everything. This is how America is going to be destroyed and turned into a socialist slave state if we do not get our immigration policy under control. In the past, our strength as a nation was our homogeneity, our shared religion, shared language and shared culture. Wake up your friends. Ask people to join this email list. Sincerely Yours, Bob from Michigan.] Here is the article (below) that I previously referred to in the letter above: Persecution of Evangelicals Continues in Mexico By Allie Martin and Jim Brown (AgapePress) - Local authorities in three small towns in different Mexican states are telling evangelical Christians to change their religion to traditional Catholicism or suffer severe consequences. Evangelical Christians who do not renounce their faith are being threatened with jail time, expulsion, the removal of public services such as water and drainage, and even death. In one case, two recent converts were jailed for 36 hours and asked to deny their new evangelical Christian faith. Terry Madison is president of Open Doors, a ministry which tracks the persecution of Christians. He says this is not a new problem. "This has been an ongoing challenge in Chiapas, where when people accept the Lord they choose not to participate in some of the local Catholic celebrations, many of which involve 'posh,' which is a locally fermented drink," Madison says. "They choose not to participate, which means they're not buying the candles and the costumes and the fireworks, and some of the other products that some of the local authorities profit by, so there's an economic loss." Madison says things are particularly bad for evangelical Christians in the state of Chiapas. "A particular community had 230 evangelicals. We're talking about a large body of Christ," he says. "Another had forty Christian church members who were challenged to renounce their evangelical faith and return to Catholicism or they would face having their homes burned and their animals destroyed." In another example of intolerance, The Alabama Baptist newspaper reports Catholic leaders in San Nicolas, Mexico, a town of some 4,000 people, are telling 36 evangelical families they must leave town within 90 days "or be kicked out." The paper says the families' water and sewer services have been cut off. A San Nicolas spokesperson is quoted as saying, "What the town wants is for the evangelicals to stop spreading their religion to more people and to stop having their meeting." Patrick Scully, a spokesman for the Catholic League, said he couldn't comment on the story because he was not aware of the details and also since the persecution is taking place outside the United States. http://headlines.agapepress.org/archive/6/52001a.asp +++++++++++++++++++++++ Religious Jews in Israel are Anti-immigration, Jews in USA pro-immigration NOTE FROM MODERATOR: I have a question for your consideration... Why do the religious Jews in Israel oppose immigration laws that will increase diversity? And why do Jews in the USA support immigration laws in America to "increase diversity"? The religious Jews in Israel are strongly Anti-immigration. The Jews in America are strongly Pro-immigration. Why? If it is a good policy for Jewish Israel to oppose the immigration of non-Jewish immigrants, why isn't the same policy, opposing non-Christian immigrants, also good for Christian America? Do I sense some hypocrisy or double standards here? See article below: Israelis Debate Immigration Laws By MARK LAVIE Associated Press Writer JERUSALEM (AP) -- The bedrock of the Jewish state-a law that grants Israeli citizenship to anyone with a Jewish grandparent-is coming under the harshest attack in years, amid allegations it has enabled hundreds of thousands of non-Jews to immigrate. Ultra-Orthodox Jews, with the support of some government officials, proposed this week that the Law of Return be tightened. "Even sacred cows are slaughtered sometimes," Rahamim Malul, a lawmaker from the religious Shas party, asserted Monday. Prime Minister Ehud Barak staunchly opposes restricting immigration, angrily insisting at a Cabinet session Sunday that the law would not be amended as long as he is prime minister. The debate reflects the disagreement between secular Zionists and observant Jews about what Israel should look like. For the religious, the most important value is to preserve the Jewish character of Israel, while Zionists believe immigration should be encouraged at all costs. The recent debate was triggered by figures showing that non-Jews outnumbered Jews, 55 percent to 45 percent, among immigrants from the former Soviet Union in the first three months of 1999. Rabbis have complained that the influx of non-Jews has led to a proliferation of butcher shops selling pork, despite religious laws that prohibit Jews from eating it. Others warn that non-Jews from the former Soviet Union, estimated at 225,000 of Israel's 6 million citizens, are amassing increasing political clout. "The loopholes in the law must be closed," warned Malul, "so that the state will not turn into a country where a large percentage of its citizens are gentiles." The Law of Return was conceived five decades ago, when Israel was a poor, besieged, fledgling nation where survivors of Holocaust-ravaged Europe and Jews from Arab countries sought shelter. Now that Israel is a prosperous country with a per capita income on a European scale, some fear non-Jews from economically depressed areas may be lured by generous government benefits for newcomers. Faced with the statistics, officials in the Ministry of Immigrant Absorption have drawn up a proposal for restricting non-Jewish immigration. It aims at reducing the number of non-Jewish descendants who can gain automatic citizenship because of a distant Jewish ancestor. However, ministry spokeswoman Michal Aharoni said the proposal "will never be the policy of the ministry." The minister for immigrant absorption, Yuli Tamir, opposes restrictions on immigration. Cabinet Minister Haim Ramon said the Law of Return is the basis of the Jewish state, offering a home to Jews "in the wide definition and not the narrow religious definition." Under religious law, a person is a Jew if his mother is Jewish. The Law of Return recognizes a much wider category as eligible for citizenship. Ramon said experience shows that even those who are technically non-Jewish "become good Jews in a few years." Yet even some immigrants from the former Soviet Union feel it is time to make changes. Yuri Stern, a member of parliament from Israel Beiteinu, a party representing the immigrants, said those with no link to the Jewish people must be stopped from immigrating. Though his party stands to benefit from additional immigrant votes, Jewish or not, Stern warned that Israel could face a demographic problem if no changes are made. From Anti_Immigration-owner at yahoogroups.com Tue Oct 2 10:16:26 2001 From: Anti_Immigration-owner at yahoogroups.com (Anti_Immigration Moderator) Date: 2 Oct 2001 17:16:26 -0000 Subject: File - Welcome to our discussion re immigration Message-ID: <1002042986.1408.90958.c2@yahoogroups.com> Friend, Welcome to the anti-immigration email list. I started this email discussion group for the purpose of discussing the legal and illegal immigration that is threatening to overwhelm America and destroy our Republic. This is a moderated group and the volume of email in this list is intentionally kept to a very low number of emails per week (usually less than 3-4 per day). Please join this List and invite your friends join also. Send me the email addresses of your friends who you think might be interested in this email list and I will invite them to join us. In general we post ONLY articles from REPUTABLE mainstream websites and newspapers, et al. Politically, I am very conservative, but this YAHOO email group will absolutely support free speech. I hate censorship and I will not censor anyone's opinion regardless of whether you are far left or far right unless you are an irrational & hateful person. So that you will know exactly where I am coming from I wrote the following; I AM A FAN OF WorldNetDaily.com-NewsMax.com-LewRockwell.com-FreeRepublic.com-FrontPageMag.com-Human Events Newspaper-MediaByPass magazine-The New American Magazine-Patriot Militia�s-General Douglas McArthur-President Ronald Reagan-Senator Joseph McCarthy-Robert Bork-Russell Kirk-Pat Buchanan-Allan Keyes-Dr. James Kennedy-R.J.Rushdoony-Andrew Sandlin-Gary North-Gary Demar-David Chilton-John Calvin-Jonathan Edwards-George Whitefield-Martin Luther-Donald Wildmon-Jay Sekulow-John Whitehead-John McManus-David Barton-Senator Bob Smith-Bob Dornan-Congressmen Ron Paul,Helen Chenoweth,George Hansen-Gordon Kahl-Howard Philips-Ludwig von Mises-F.A.Hayek-Milton Friedman-Russell Kirk-Martin Gross-Vin Suprynowicz-Walter Williams-Thomas Sowell-Alex Jones-Michael Savage-Frank from Queens-Shawn Hannity-Rabbi Daniel Lapin-Michael Medved-Chuck Morse-Don Feder-Sam Blumenfeld-Joseph Sobran-Michael Hoffman-Bo Gritz-Larry Becraft-Michael New-Charlotte Iserbyt-Beverly Eakman- Phyllis Schlafly-Josep! h ! ! Farah-Charley Reese-George Gilder-Paul Johnson-Alexis DeToqueville-Edmund Burke-Frederick Bastiat-Ayn Rand-George-Washington-James Madison-Patrick Henry-Thomas Jefferson-Noah Webster-David Horowitz-Reed Irvine-Paul Weyrich-Aaron Zelman-Larry Pratt and THE BIBLE & JESUS CHRIST and many more such heroes of liberty You may write me at BobfromMichigan74 at Hotmail.com with any questions or concerns that you may have. I am sincerely yours, Bob from Michigan. PS - Please tell your friends and family about this email list. Send me their names and email address'es and I will invite them to join this email list. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Anti_Immigration Post message: Anti_Immigration at yahoogroups.com Subscribe: Anti_Immigration-subscribe at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: Anti_Immigration-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com List owner: Anti_Immigration-owner at yahoogroups.com My Email address: anti_immigration_man at yahoo.com My Email address: BobFromMichigan74 at Hotmail.com From Anti_Immigration-owner at yahoogroups.com Tue Oct 2 10:16:26 2001 From: Anti_Immigration-owner at yahoogroups.com (Anti_Immigration Moderator) Date: 2 Oct 2001 17:16:26 -0000 Subject: File - Automatic Monthly Repost of Basic Facts.txt Message-ID: <1002042986.1079.90958.c2@yahoogroups.com> {This is an AUTOMATIC EMAIL. It is automatically posted to this email list once a month. It is a Repost of very important information that you may have missed before. Please resend this information to your friends and family and to everyone you know. Thanks, BobFromMichigan74 at Hotmail.com} The following information comes from the Census Bureau http://www.census.gov/ http://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0029/tab04.html http://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0029/tab03.html Legal Immigration - Total numbers for each decade is listed as follows 1990 - 19,767,316 1980 - 14,079,906 1970 - 9,619,302 1960 - 9,738,091 FRIENDS - PLEASE NOTE THAT OVER 45 MILLION LEGAL (YES I SAID "LEGAL") IMMIGRANTS HAVE ENTERED THE COUNTRY SINCE 1970. NOW ADD TO THAT BETWEEN 10 AND 20 MILLION ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS THAT ARE CURRENTLY LIVING WITHIN AMERICA. THIS MEANS THAT A TOTAL OF BETWEEN 55 AND 65 MILLION PEOPLE ARE NOW LIVING IN AMERICA WHO WERE NOT BORN IN AMERICA. WHEN YOU CONSIDER THAT THE TOTAL POPULATION OF AMERICA IS LESS THAN 290 MILLION, IF YOU HAVE ANY COMMON SENSE AT ALL THOSE NUMBERS SHOULD SCARE THE HECK OUT OF YOU. "SOMETHING IS HAPPENING HERE AND YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS... DO YOU, MR. JONES?" ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I Urge you all to go to this Website http://www.americanpatrol.com/archiveditems.html MYTHS AND HALF-TRUTHS ABOUT ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION VCT Web Posted 1/17/2000 MYTH: America has lots of room to double the population (The U.S. Census Bureau says that the U.S. population will double this century). TRUTH: The open spaces one sees from an airplane are not where the 260 million new immigrants and their families will settle. They will settle in the already overcrowded urban areas of the country just like they always have. Much of America's open spaces are occupied by food production for our own people and to sustain tens of millions of people in other countries. Open spaces are also part of our national heritage of parks and wilderness. A U.S. Census spokesman recently said we shouldn't be very crowded even at twice the population because we still will have only about a fourth the density of England. This irresponsible "trick" statement averages our open spaces, much of which is farmland, parks, and otherwise uninhabitable land, into the equation. In the sections of the country where most Americans live, we are already very much as crowded as are Europeans. And do we want to live like Europeans who centuries ago destroyed most of their wild areas. MYTH: Americans won't do the work that illegals do. TRUTH: Prior to 1965 when the disastrous Immigration Bill was passed, there was very little immigration. In fact, between 1925 and 1965, there was even a period of net emigration out of the United States. During this time, our grass was getting cut, our meat was being packed, our children were being watched and our houses were being cleaned. The idea that somehow we suddenly can't run a country without an unlimited supply of foreigners is absurd. Those in favor of foreign labor are corporations who are addicted to cheap labor. They are the ones who are benefiting. But their benefit comes at the American tax payer's expense when you consider that the American tax payer is virtually subsidizing the labor costs of the greedy corporations by supplying the illegal foreign workers and their families with welfare, free education, free medical, WICs, housing assistance, etc. -- something the corporations won't do. Americans won't allow themselves to be exploited like illegals do, but they WILL do the work that illegals do for fair compensation and benefits. If Americans did the work that illegals do at higher pay, would that benefit the consumer? You bet it would in the long run. But many Americans who do not care about America's future are consumers who favor the idea of exploiting illegal workers because it keeps commodity and service prices down in the short term. HALF TRUTH: illegals eventually become assimilated Americans. TRUTH: Many do. But Most third world illegals come to the U.S. for personal economic reasons. Most do not cherish our system of government, A Constitutional Republic. Many so called "immigration rights" groups "fan the fire" with their rhetoric which encourages immigrants to preserve their culture and language at tax payers expense. Among some of these groups, the word "assimilation" is considered xenophobic. When ultimately illegal immigrants and/or their children do become voting citizens, many vote in blocks (Mexican-American, El Salvadoran-American, Guatemalan-American, etc.), not for the good of America, but for personal economic gain usually at the expense of another group. HALF TRUTH: Illegal aliens are better off in the U.S. doing lousy menial jobs than they are in their own country. TRUTH: That may be true for the Illegal aliens in the short run (and businesses that hire them), but for many "undocumented immigrants" (Mexicans make up the majority), the "American legacy of exploitation of immigrants" remains in the minds of their children for many generations to come creating resentment of America and hinders assimilation of even their American born offspring. Resentment of America has created anti-American organizations such as MECHA whose nationwide college and high school members must pledge their support to forcefully take back what they call "Aztlan," the U.S. Southwest ceded in 1846 to the U.S. in the Mexican War. HALF TRUTH: Illegal aliens pay taxes that benefit the economy. TRUTH: Most illegal aliens do not receive a typical paycheck with tax deductions -- they are paid in cash and do not pay taxes. Even when they do pay taxes (only possible if they use fraudulent social security numbers or government assigned ID tax numbers), their meager income is not enough to pay for medical expenses and all the expenses for all the children they give birth to. You don't have to look at statistics -- just visit the maternal ward at the L.A. county hospital. There, illegal immigrant women are having thousands of children per year free of charge and can't afford them once they give birth, and that doesn't stop them from having even more children -- most learn how to work the system so that they receive cash assistance and food stamps. A basic principle in economics is this: The more people that assimilate into the system the better -- if it creates a larger tax base. But here in California it hasn't. For example, the feds had to bail out the L.A. County hospital system several years ago and the county hospitals are now again headed for another crisis. The evidence shows that the net results are that illegal immigrants cost the taxpayer significantly more than they pay in taxes. HALF TRUTH: Illegal aliens have a good work ethics. TRUTH: It depends on what one means by "work ethic." If it means that illegals will allow themselves to be exploited, then they have a good work ethic. If it means that a group of day laborers would be consciences in the assembly of precision built automobiles, it might get an argument. But it is irrelevant if an illegal alien has a good work ethic -- they are working illegally! MYTH: Illegal aliens don't affect politics because they can't vote. TRUTH: Just by being counted in the census, illegals give political power to special groups. Many illegals fraudulently vote anyway and there is strong evidence that some key elections have been upset by illegal voters. Politicians represent the "people" even if those people are illegal aliens. Since the number of representatives in congress is fixed, any increase in population in California, for example, due to illegal immigration will require more representation for that group while taking away representation from people in other states. Most politicians that represent areas of large illegal population, vote in the interest of illegal aliens since they are the ones they represent. On the state level, it is clear that politicians like Governor Davis, California Speaker of the House Antonio Villaraigosa, California Senator Hilda Solis, California Assemblyman Gilbert A. Cedillo, etc., all want laws changed in the interest of illegal aliens. MYTH: illegals go to illegal unlicensed medical clinics run by unlicensed quacks because they have no other alternative and because they are afraid of being deported. TRUTH: Illegals know that they won't be deported simply for seeking medical help -- thousands go for free medical help every day. Obviously, the thousands of illegals who give birth in our county hospitals do not seem to be worried about deportation after their free delivery. The real reason many unsophisticated Hispanic illegals don't go to "free" medical facilities is because they actually trust "curanderos" ( type of witch doctors popular in Mexico) over licensed medical doctors. HALF TRUTH: Illegals come to the U.S. for jobs to support their families, and wives and kids in there homeland. TRUTH: Many do. But record numbers of those wives and kids are sneaking over the border to join their breadwinner in the U.S. But most alarming, is the record numbers of dead-beat dads that find an easy escape from their responsibilities in their homeland and in fact abandon their families. There is also strong empirical evidence that even illegal aliens who had good jobs in their homeland still want to be in the U.S. -- most of the world's people want to come to the U.S. because it is a very good place to be for many more reasons than just for a job. MYTH: Pete Wilson's attitude towards illegal aliens stifled trade with Mexico. Governor Davis will change that. TRUTH: Trade from California to Mexico increased 84.5 percent between 1992 and 1997 and did more trading with Mexico than any other state including Texas - all during the central years of the Wilson administration. MYTH: Proposition 187 is unconstitutional because governor Davis says so. TRUTH: Maybe 187 is unconstitutional. But it is not for the governor of California to decide that. That decision must come from the U.S. supreme court. Davis has preempted the supreme court and snubbed his nose at the voters of California by deciding on his own that 187 is unconstitutional -- contradicting a statement he made to the voters "I'm a governor, not a judge." MYTH: The cost of not educating undocumented children is higher than the cost of educating them. TRUTH: This kind of statement is absurd. It assumes that disallowing illegal alien children into our schools and/or deporting them is not an option. The idea that undocumented children are being punished for the bad deeds of their parents is ludicrous. Undocumented children already have citizenship in another country that is responsible for their education. California schools have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy regarding who gets to go to school. This policy is a powerful magnet that attracts illegals to California. The costs are enormous. Undocumented children are being rewarded, not punished. Few disagrees that if the current rate of illegal immigration continues, a school a day will have to be built to accommodate the undocumented children and citizen children of undocumented parents. MYTH: Record public school enrollment on a national level of 17.5 percent from 1983 to 1997, is a result of Baby Boomers. TRUTH: Current Population Surveys (such as reported in the January 1999 Backgrounder) shows that 15.9 percent of the school-age population growth in 1997 had immigrant mothers. In California, officials say a new school each day -- or a new classroom an hour -- is needed to keep up with the growth (Since immigrants are just as likely (even more likely) than natives to go to public school, it's clear that nearly all the increase in public school enrollment over the past 15 years is due to federal immigration policy, not the Baby Boom generation. MYTH: Issuing California driver's licenses to illegal aliens will make our roads safer because they would be trained to drive safely and would have insurance. TRUTH: Giving illegal aliens driver's licenses will only make enforcement of our immigrant laws more difficult -- it would make it harder to detect them. It also "throws in the towel" and sends the wrong message to illegal aliens that they can change the law by breaking the law. Society must assume that anyone who would break the law and drive without a license, would continue to break driving and other laws even if they were licensed and most would not be any safer drivers. Moreover, it is laughable to think that these illegal aliens are going to run out and buy car insurance (one of more profitable documents now being sold to illegals, are fraudulent "proof of insurance" documents). MYTH: Lack of academic achievement and high school dropout rates are caused by the poor economic conditions of immigrants. TRUTH: This belief is another one of those "just accept this as truth" cliches." Poverty in itself does not cause school dropouts. This was proven in a report in Scientific American magazine (Indochinese Refugee Families and Academic Achievement, February, 1992). The article showed that many refugees from Southeast Asia with large families arrived in the U.S. with little more than the clothes on their backs and with no exposure to Western culture or knowledge of the English language. Yet their children display stunning scholastic achievement in American schools. In the U.S., the effect of poverty on education has been focused mainly on two ethnic groups, Black and Hispanics. Ironically, these groups have the most representation by their "leaders" who's livings depend on bringing high visibility to the children's penurious conditions -- instead of emphasis on the hard work it takes to succeed in academics. But for the sake of argument, if poverty of immigrants is the cause of their lack of academic acheivement, why would the U.S. want to import poverty. MYTH: Since illegal alien farm workers come to the U.S. for "jobs Americans won't take," they would not present a problem if they were given temporary visas to allow them to work the fields and then return to Mexico (or other country). TRUTH: Millions of illegal alien workers who could be doing all the farm work that "Americans won't do" are already in the U.S. Almost all illegals who come to work the fields do not make a career of low paying, hard working farm jobs. The belief that only pitiful third world laborers can be content in doing menial farm work is obviated when it is seen that almost all of these workers sooner or later "head for the city" for the better jobs. HALF TRUTH: Illegals are enjoying the fruit of the recent great American robust economy. TRUTH: While many Americans are benefiting from a robust economy, government data shows that record numbers of Americans are falling into poverty in spite of overall good economic conditions -- and in spite of 35 years of record government spending on social programs. This down slide can be directly linked to illegals flooding the low scale job market -- virtually importing poverty faster than it can be irradiated. Had there not been any massive illegal immigration in the past 20 years, poverty in much of America may well have been reduced significantly. MYTH: Employers are solely responsible for illegal immigration because they attract illegals by providing low paying jobs. TRUTH: Illegals are directly responsible for their illegal presence. Blaming the entire problem on employers for illegal immigration is like blaming a women for her own rape because she dressed to sexy and the rapist couldn't resist her. HALF TRUTH: Hispanic immigrants are family oriented and very religious catholics. TRUTH: The vast majority of illegal entries from across our southern border are unsophisticated, poor, and uneducated, who do not necessarily hold to strong family values or the Catholic faith. This is evident by U.S. statistics showing that while unwed teenage pregnancy in the U.S. is decreasing as a whole, Latina unwed teenage pregnancy is on the rise. The illegal immigrants of today are not all the honest, hard working, American dream seekers. This is evident by record numbers of dead-beat dads who walk away from their responsibilities to their children by leaving their homeland and simply crossing the border. MYTH: If the U.S. pumps money into Mexico and other third world countries for the purpose of improving their economies, it will create jobs thus eliminating the need to illegally immigrate to the U.S. TRUTH: The only way that the improvement of other countries' economies would appreciably stop illegal immigration to the U.S., is if those countries' economies were to become as strong as that of the U.S. Thousands of visa over stayers from non-third world countries like Canada, France, Israel, are also part of the illegal immigration problem and those countries have good economies. The U.S. is not the only country to which illegal immigrants seek to immigrate. Countries all over the world are experiencing illegal immigration driven by "wanting a better life." As soon as Third World countries become even only a little bit more prosperous than their neighbors, they rush to keep strangers out. Mexico, for example, does not tolerate its border violations by Guatemalans. Malaysia recently announced that in the case of repeat offenders, it will flog illegal aliens, their employers, and anyone who smuggles them into the country. In early January, 2000, over 35,000 illegal Zimbabwe! an! ! workers were tossed out Of South Africa. So forget it! The U.S. should be concerned with improving its own economy and strictly enforcing its immigration laws. HALF TRUTH: Immigrants make good entrepreneurs. TRUTH: The common belief that immigrants are natural entrepreneurs may have its roots in the observation of the thousands of illegal alien third world style illegal street venders now found in most large U.S. cities. This belief has been obviated by a wall street article in which recent data shows that native born Americans are more likely to be successful entrepreneurs. (Immigrant Entrepreneurs Slide From Their Top Spot, The Wall Street Journal, January 12, 1999). http://www.americanpatrol.com/REFERENCE/mythshalftruths000117.html ++++++++++++++++++++++++++ In 1980 there were only 67 Spanish-language radio stations in the United States. Today, at least 559 of the nation's 12,800 stations broadcast in Spanish, according to the Arbitron ratings service. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Claudia Smith, "Condemning Migrant Job Seekers to Death." My Findings and Suggestions: * Today 5 1/2 million illegal aliens from Mexico enter San Diego and Imperial counties in CA each year. Some bring drugs and later traffic drugs. Many come for other reasons. Drug smuggling is common with illegal immigration from Mexico. * A total of 7 1/2 million mostly Mexican illegal aliens now cross the U.S.-Mexico border yearly and permanently remain in the U.S., and this number is increasing 2 million per year. * The apprehension figures are almost identical in CA from 1994 to 1998, therefore the so-called "Gatekeeper displaced" illegal immigration to AZ and NM in 1999 may actually be NEW illegal immigration, or in essence a tremendous increase in illegal immigration from Mexico. Some of the new AZ figures alone extrapolate to more than 2 million more new illegals per year! * Most illegal aliens coming across the U.S.-Mexico border are not drug smugglers, but almost all drug smugglers and people smugglers are illegal aliens. * Illegal drugs produced in Mexico and smuggled into the U.S. from Mexico cost a U.S. family of four $1,286.00 in 1998. Tax money you paid which your family could have used for other things. * Illegal immigration from Mexico costs each U.S. citizen another $341.00 per year in federal, state, county, and local taxes and fees for public education, housing, health care, welfare, social security, emergency medical treatment, sanitation, unemployment, fire suppression, and a plethora of other costs such as private losses by property owners, ranchers, and border residents. $1394.00 for a family of four. * The cost of illegal drugs and illegal immigration from Mexico to your family of four is now $2,680.00 per year. And you have to earn $3,752.00 to pay this amount. * $3,752.00 right out of your pocket or your purse and those of every other U.S. family. U.S. citizens in high immigration states, counties, and cities will pay a higher amount. Maybe much higher. Example: The same family in California will pay an additional $1,250.00 in emergency medical care costs per year for illegal aliens. * The total cost of illegal drugs and illegal immigration from Mexico to your CA family of four is now $3,930.00 per year. And you have to earn $5,502.00 to pay this amount if you live in California. * One large city reports that up to 87% of their drug arrests are now illegal aliens mostly from Mexico. But most will not release this 'racially profiled' information. * The U.S. Border Patrol now has an armed patrol agent for every 475 feet* of the 66 mile border in San Diego county (2,200 armed agents plus support personnel), yet over 5,000,000 illegal aliens slipped by them in 1998 and remain in the U.S. in 1999. Unofficial USBP estimates are that fewer than 25% of these 2,200 agents are ever on or near the border engaged in their primary duty assignment at any given time. * The U.S. Border Patrol is not on the U.S. border. They stop motorists on highways. They conduct highway checkpoints. They help local, county, and state police. They rescue illegal aliens. They chase vans overloaded with 45 illegal aliens. They catch between 10% and 30% of the illegal aliens. But few USBP are on the actual real border strip of land that's 60 feet wide, owned by the federal government (in CA only), and defined as the U.S. Border. This must change. And control of the U.S.B.P. by I.N.S. management must change. And using privately owned and U.S. citizen occupied property as a "buffer zone" between the real border and the interior highway defined "pseudo* border" must stop. * The current I.N.S. illegal immigration policy is a deceptive plan of "catch, count, and release," sometimes without deportation of the illegal alien, but instead release into the community, with a promise by the alien to return to Mexico. Even after deportation, almost all (99.2%) illegal aliens return to the U.S. often bringing their entire extended families. * Once across the real U.S.-Mexico border, virtually all illegal aliens, smuggling drugs or not, are "home free" in the U.S.A. and almost all eventually become U.S. citizens. This is the real intent of the current I.N.S. management. * The U.S. desperately needs a National Border Fence and a National Border Control Procedure that respects the rights of the majority of U.S. citizens, the rights of U.S. citizen border residents near the border, and which takes their well-being and ideas into consideration too. And then shut down Operation Gatekeeper which is a failure in 79% of San Diego county and 100% of Imperial county based on apprehension figures from 1994 to 1998. * There will be another Mexico peso devaluation. Probably after December 2000 when President Zedillo's term ends. Today's flood of aliens and drugs from Mexico may only be a trickle in comparison. * Wake up Americans before it's too late. * Wake up Americans before it's Kosovo. *Excludes two days off per week, training days, holidays, vacation days, sick days, review board days, personal leave days, various interior duty assignments, court appearances, highway checkpoint assignments, and management personnel. * Today up to 75% of the illegal drugs in the U.S. come from Mexico across the U.S.-Mexico border. These drugs are produced in Mexico or transported through Mexico and then smuggled into the U.S. by mostly illegal aliens from Mexico. * The importation of illegal drugs into the U.S. from Mexico and the wide-spread smuggling of both people and drugs from Mexico results from an unprotected U.S.-Mexico border, a NAFTA caused relaxation of border inspections, and a corrupt neo*-narco Mexico government. * All the available evidence indicates massive drug money-corruption throughout Mexico's civil and military establishments: police officers, attorney generals, army officers, generals, cabinet officials, governors, and even presidents. Some experts say the Mexican drug cartels operate as an arm of the government of Mexico. * For every $10 million dollars we export to Mexico with NAFTA, the U.S. "imports" $12.28 million dollars of Mexican drug-related costs. This cost was $87.75 billion (with a "b") in 1997. * If only 2% of the illegal aliens now crossing the U.S.-Mexico border smuggle in 2 kilograms of cocaine (4.4 lbs) this would account for all 342 tons the DEA says now enter our country annually. * Mexico is the transit station for 50-70% of the cocaine, a quarter to a third of the heroin, 80% of the marijuana, and 90% of the ephedrine used to make methamphetamine entering the United States. - Senate Hearings 1998 * Methamphetamine cases now account for 80% of the nation's police departments' drug investigations. - DEA Report 1996 * One million legal immigrants come to America each year making the 1990s the highest population growth decade in U.S. history, not counting the 7 1/2 million additional illegal aliens coming from Mexico each year. * Most illegal aliens reside in large cities, not in less problem plagued unpopulated "open areas" that the pro-immigration proponents say the U.S. has "plenty of." * Can we expect people who don't respect laws and private property rights in Mexico to respect ours in the U.S.? Much of Mexico's rural population is socialistic. All Mexico rebel groups, the EZLN, EPR, etc. are openly Marxist communists. * We must control our country's border if we are going to control illegal drugs and illegal immigration into the U.S. and have true national security. * All the costs in this summary are directly attributable to Mexico and to illegal drugs and to illegal aliens coming directly from Mexico. Some of both originate elsewhere but all enter by crossing the U.S.-Mexico border. * Immigrant Rights attorneys should sue the employers of illegal aliens who are forced into wage peonage (economic slavery). A few multi-million dollar favorable judgments might accomplish more than the I.N.S. or the U.S.B.P. have yet achieved. * Mexican citizens should remain in Mexico and work for political and economic change in Mexico. * Drug use is increasing among U.S. children. Illegal immigration from Mexico is also increasing. * Based on my personal experience, the same ranch job in Colorado now pays $700 more per month than in Southern California. * Law enforcement and the media should stop making excuses for the criminal activity of illegal aliens. Illegal aliens pay to be smuggled into the U.S. from Mexico and illegal aliens are usually the smugglers. Crime is never politically correct. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ EFFECTS OF ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION IN CALIFORNIA (1) They threaten the public health with imported disease. They load the public hospitals beyond endurance because they have no means and are thus charity cases; no insurance--which means that taxpayers pick up the medical bills; (2) They have single-handedly...via gangs...accounted for most of the violent crime in L.A. (3) They overwhelm all public services--including welfare--paid for by guess who? (4) One-third of all prison beds in California are presently occupied by illegal aliens. (5) TWO thirds of all "live births to indigent mothers" (paid for by taxpayers) are to illegal alien women who came here specifically to give birth so that the child will be a U.S. citizen and hence eligible for massive and immediate largesse from Uncle Sucker. (6) The illegals are voting--contributing to massive voter fraud. And they--like the dead--vote reliably Democrat. Ask Bob Dornan. Other than those...and a host of other problems...they're fine. I'd love it if apologists for illegal immigrants--such as yourself--could be made to assume all the costs of their presence and flouting of U.S. laws. Then I'd cheer as they swim the Rio Grande. --Boris +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ FOLLOWING IS A LIST OF COMMON OBJECTIONS RAISED BY THOSE WHO THINK THAT THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH OUR CURRENT IMMIGRATION POLICIES. THE "OBJECTION" IS STATED FIRST AND IS THEN FOLLOWED BY A "SHORT ANSWER" AND A "LONG ANSWER." #1 - OBJECTION & ANSWER OBJECTION -- This is a country of immigrants #1 - SHORT ANSWER I am an American. I am not an immigrant. Therefore this country is not a country of immigrants. #1 - LONG ANSWER If you are discussing immigration with a friend, you are likely to hear him reflexively blurt out the above gem. When he does, simply point out to him that eighty percent of the residents of the United States were born here. How could that preponderance of home-grown Americans justify us being called a "nation of immigrants"? Certainly we are descendants of immigrants (as is everyone in the world except those living in the Garden of Eden), but that is not the same thing as being an immigrant. Sloppy use of language does not help the discussion. If your friend has been drinking and insists on repeating this meaningless phrase we are a nation of immigrants over and over like a mantra, explain to him that if he is, for some inexplicable reason, including ancestry in his argument, then all nations are nations of immigrants and we should simply open the borders. If he has been drinking a lot and this sounds like a good idea to him, take his keys away and suggest he go live for a while in a Third World country, asking himself why everyone there is coming here. If he is one of those really obstinate drunks who cannot be swayed by sober argument, then say to him, "We should open the borders? Fine. let's put it to a vote and see what most Americans think." We will win that vote. Every sovereign nation has the right and obligation to protect itself. That is to say: defend its borders. To advocate open borders is to say we are not a country, which is to say: there is no law. One of the most crucial things we must do in the U.S. to protect ourselves from the certain perils of overpopulation, is to stop our population growth. Our only tools are to reduce births and/or immigration. If we want to accomodate a million immigrants a year, then one should advocate a reduction by a million a year in births. And this would not even stop our growth. It would only freeze it where it is today. If we cut the number of births by two million a year and allowed a million immigrants a year to enter we would be somewhere close to achieving zero population growth. This should be the goal. "Smart Growth" won't do it +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ #2 - OBJECTION & ANSWER OBJECTION -- Your ancestors were immigrants, so you have no right to say anything about immigration #2 - SHORT ANSWER : Yes, I do. I am an American citizen. This is a constitutional republic with a bill of rights that includes both the right of free speech and the right to vote in free and honest elections at regular intervals. All Americans who vote are doing so in an attempt to influence the direction of our national governance. Therefore, as an American I do have a say in public policy issues. #2 - LONG ANSWER : Yes, my ancestors came from somewhere other than the North American continent. And so did yours. And so did everyone else's--including those of the American Indians. In fact, except for, possibly, on the banks of some isolated watering hole in Africa, everyone in the world's ancestors came from somewhere other than the place their descendants inhabit now. In other words, every nation is a "nation of immigrants" and the term itself is basically meaningless. But no one seriously thinks that this fact somehow renders the term "sovereignty" meaningless. Think of it this way: Imagine if, due to overcrowding in India, millions of Indians started pouring over the Himalayas into Sichuan Province in southern China. Undoubtedly, the CHinese would complain. Then, imagine if the Indians said to the Chinese, "You have no right to complain or to stop us from coming into Sichuan Province because you Chinese are ethnic Han people originally from Shanxi Province in the North near Mongolia and your ancestors were also immigrants here. Sichuan Province therefore belongs to all the people of the world." The Chinese would laugh at them and tell them to go home before they got a thump on the head. They would say, "Sichuan Province is a part of China and we Chinese decide who may or may not come here." In other words, the Chinese would not be moved by claims that because their ancestors had been born somewhere else, they had no right to decide public policy in their own country. In fact, nowhere in the world would such an argument be considered for even a moment. Except in the United States. It is only in this country where we actually consider the undemocratic notion that the majority of the citizens of our country have no justifiable say over who may and may not enter our nation. It is only in America where a person's skin color or ethnic background has a bearing on what they are permitted to feel is best for the country. It is only in America that we encounter the lunacy that race can somehow determine the legitimacy of one's patriotism. The rest of the world scratches its collective head in amazement at our folly, naivete and childishness. If we are going to try to start redefining the world's boundaries according to ancestral wanderings, we have quite a task before us. Maybe it would be better not to start. The boundaries of the United States are as they are, just as the boundaries of China or any other country are as they are, and the citizens of each nation in the world are the keepers of the boundaries of their own nation. Americans must retake control of their country's borders and discard the notion that somehow an Ecuadorean or a Swede or a Pakistani has some sort of "equal" say with an American over the boundaries of the United States. A foreigner does not have the right to determine American public policy vis-a-vis immigration policy. American Constitutional rights do not apply to Germans or Chinese or Mexicans. No foreigner has equal rights with an American citizen qua an American citizen. There is no such thing as "alien rights." On a deeper level, this argument is a kind of "original sin" argument. It is an easily refuted argument from a religio-anthropological stance. For now, let us say that ancestor worship is not a part of the American tradition. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ #3 - OBJECTION & ANSWER OBJECTION -- Only the American Indians, the "Native Americans", are true Americans #3 - SHORT ANSWER "And the Native Americans allowed uncontrolled immigration and look what happened to them." #3 - LONG ANSWER Anyway, this argument ignores the concept of "nation". There was no such thing as the political entity known as the American nation until the Founding Fathers created it in 1776. Furthermore, there are not grades of citizenship. One is either a citizen of this country, or one is not. We are not more or less citizens of the United States based on the number of generations preceding us on these shores. And, particularly, we are not more or less citizens of this country based on our skin color or ethnicity. Because my ancestors immigrated to this continent 5 or 6 generations ago does not make me a "truer American" than someone who took the Oath of Allegience yesterday. Nor are Indians "truer Americans" than I simply because their ancestors immigrated many generations before mine did ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ #4 - OBJECTION & ANSWER OBJECTION -- Immigrants built this country #4 - SHORT ANSWER At some point, maybe we should stop "building." #4 - LONG ANSWER And immigrants didn't build this country anyway. Americans did. If my family has been here for six generations, and they all had jobs, how can it be said that America was built by immigrants. If my case is typical, only 1/6 of America has been built by immigrants. Now, if having been built by an immigrant means that for the rest of eternity anyone calling himself an immigrant has carte blanche, then I say we settle the problem once and for all. We should turn over 1/6 of the U.S. land mass, declare it as having been "built by immigrants", open its borders and let everybody in the world move there. Alaska would fit the bill nicely. We might even be able to trick Russia into buying it back first. In all seriousness, immigration averaged only 235,000 persons per year prior to the disastrous 1965 Immigration Act. That's only 47 million immigrants over the course of our nation's history. Compared to our current population of 270 million, that's not much. And then, if we add all the people who have lived before in the United States, we are approaching a billion total Americans who live now or have lived in this country--all of them, or at least most of them, busy "building" it. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ #5 - OBJECTION & ANSWER OBJECTION -- Diversity is good for America #5 - SHORT ANSWER One shouldn't decide public policy on racist or ethnicist grounds. #5 - LONG ANSWER Whatever the benefits of ethnic or racial diversity, we are already the most diverse country in the world. It is not clear we need more of it. Though we often hear the mantra "Diversity is our strength," polls show that Americans of all ethnic backgrounds are less than convinced. Almost everyone agrees that balkanization--the breaking up of our country into combative, ethnically defined political groups contending against one another as hostile units--would be a bad thing. Yet, even a cursory glance around can not fail to impress upon the observer that, as our country becomes more diverse, it is also becoming more politically balkanized. "Identity politics" is increasing--not decreasing. Why in God's name would we continue to pursue a policy that can only intensify this tendency to balkanization? If we are going to maintain a public policy with the effect of making ourselves even more "diverse," let's put it to a vote. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Please send this info to all of your friends and family. Sincerely yours, Bob from Michigan, BobFromMichigan74 at Hotmail.com, Moderator of this email group. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Anti_Immigration Subscribe: Anti_Immigration-subscribe at yahoogroups.com Post message: Anti_Immigration at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: Anti_Immigration-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com List owner: Anti_Immigration-owner at yahoogroups.com My Email address: anti_immigration_man at yahoo.com My Email address: BobFromMichigan74 at Hotmail.com From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Tue Oct 2 09:19:09 2001 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 17:19:09 +0100 Subject: STILL OFF TOPIC: Re: America needs therapy References: <3.0.6.32.20011002074311.0094aa90@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3BB9E8FD.184891B3@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Once the catcher is high enough it ought to be possible to set the launcher so that missed catches zip round Earth & head out. After all, at Lunar OV it "wants" to be in a high orbit. Achieving re-entry through Earth's atmosphere - sorry that should be "entry" it wasn't here in the first place - needs some precision. And if the loads are anything smaller than a large truck, they ought not to harm Earth anyway. Just a pretty light show for anyone watching the skies. Nothing like as fast as natural meteors. Moon-Earth flight time could be days. As many days as you want I suppose as long as you are going faster than the Moon's escape velocity, and certainly very many hours. If you do it right there is no reason it couldn't pass the station at almost any required speed. Catching is the hard part. A plain ordinary net might have to do, at least at first. Well, not *that* plain or ordinary. But it needs to be light because it comes up from Earth. You have to start small, with pea-sized consignments. Or baked-bean-can-sized. Then you work up, making new equipment from stuff sent from the moon. Anything big enough to do damage on Earth will be visible from Earth. So it isn't at all a useful weapons launching system. If you are trying to drop big hot rocks on cities, they will have time to run away (low tech solution) or phone up their sub commanders and tell them to light the blue touchpaper (high tech solution). Same goes with knobs on for nukes. The way to get a station into higher orbits is to start even higher and drop stuff onto it from above. Ken Brown David Honig wrote: > > At 02:00 PM 10/2/01 +0100, Ken Brown wrote: > >And if you can put up a bloody huge enough launcher on the moon, (use > >solar energy or nuclear - why not - it is one place in the system that > >we don't care about pollution) then you can send material back all the > >way to LEO by slingshot, and when it is captured by the facility at LEO, > > And Lloyds pays out when you miss the catch? > > (Then again, NASA played plutonium slingshot without coverage... ) From mmotyka at lsil.com Tue Oct 2 17:23:51 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 17:23:51 -0700 Subject: Man arrested in burning US flag Message-ID: <3BBA5A97.AEE7DB29@lsil.com> Don't you hate it when the issues are tangled. It would much nicer if there were a clean and simple case of free speech but no, it has to be impure. OTOH the police could be lying about the firecracker and the struggle knowing that the Constitutional issue is clear ( today anyway ) and wanting to punish the unbeliever. The neighbor is a real piece of work too. Let's all pitch in and send him a brown shirt. From tcmay at got.net Tue Oct 2 17:25:16 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 17:25:16 -0700 Subject: Photographing Dams Message-ID: <1E5AA9C2-B795-11D5-9404-0050E439C473@got.net> There have been several panicky calls that "Arabs" were seen at national tourist spots, including photographing the Hoover Dam. Some on Usenet are calling for steps to "crack down" on these photographers. This is an article I wrote for Usenet: This is not the Soviet Union. Anyone may photograph _anything_, except on a military base or the like. There are no restrictions supported in the U.S. Constitution supporting bans on photographing, drawing, or making notes on anything not explicitly forbidden by military classification laws. I know that I if I am ever stopped for photographing a dam or a bridge I hope I'll have the courage to tell the cop to fuck off. If arrested on such a bogus charge, things will escalate dramatically and I would be forced to Plan B. (Sounds harsh. "They're just doing their job." Nope. They don't have any legal right to stop persons without probable cause. Looking Arabic is not probable cause. Photographing a dam is not probable cause. Being suspicious is not probable cause.) I realize many of the survivalist and gun owner types are now adopting the "My country, right or wrong" stance. Not me. Things are going to get very, very violent if this stampede toward a police state continues. --Tim May From kmself at ix.netcom.com Tue Oct 2 17:33:39 2001 From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 17:33:39 -0700 Subject: cryptome down ? In-Reply-To: <007701c14b9f$ed884aa0$0100a8c0@mshome.net>; from njohnsn@IowaTelecom.net on Tue, Oct 02, 2001 at 07:11:19PM -0500 References: <007701c14b9f$ed884aa0$0100a8c0@mshome.net> Message-ID: <20011002173339.B26931@navel.introspect> on Tue, Oct 02, 2001 at 07:11:19PM -0500, Neil Johnson (njohnsn at IowaTelecom.net) wrote: > I tried to get to cryptome, but it appears to be down. > > Any info ? Works from here. -- Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/ Land of the free Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature] From mmotyka at lsil.com Tue Oct 2 17:47:02 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 17:47:02 -0700 Subject: Photographing Dams Message-ID: <3BBA6006.FFED56C3@lsil.com> Aren't there cases of persons having had their film confiscated for photographing federal installations from public rights of way or is that the stuff of urban/net legends? Is does sound hokey to me. Mike From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Oct 2 15:54:53 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 17:54:53 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Stegdetect 0.3 released (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 17:10:45 -0400 From: Niels Provos To: cryptography at wasabisystems.com Subject: Stegdetect 0.3 released Stegdetect 0.3 contains Stegbreak, a tool for launching dictionary attacks against the following steganographic systems: JSteg-Shell, JPHide and OutGuess 0.13b You can download Stegdetect from http://www.outguess.org/ More details about the steganography detection framework can be found in the CITI tech report "Detecting Steganographic Content on the Internet" at http://www.citi.umich.edu/techreports/reports/citi-tr-01-11.pdf Greetings, Niels. --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From schear at lvcm.com Tue Oct 2 17:56:48 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 17:56:48 -0700 Subject: and now for something completely different... Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011002175601.04aabcd0@pop3.lvcm.com> Princeton University has for a while been host to a number of computerized studies of random number generators. The Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research Lab (PEAR) is one. Another of them is the Global Consciousness Project (GCP), whose data is available on the web at http://noosphere.princeton.edu/ . The GCP has a network of 40 random number generators (called eggs) around the world, creating numbers at the rate of 200 per second each. During events of global import, the project has noticed statistically significant variations from complete randomness in the numbers generated. The most intense global event measured by this system was the recent World Trade Center attack. It was not just a reported event. For the first time in history, a globally connected population watched on TV as 6000 people were killed in real time. This produced a correspondingly intense activity in the GCP network. The site contains detailed statistical analysis of the data (as well as the raw data itself), and is worth a look. Here is a quote from the narrative that accompanies it: "When we ask why the disaster in New York and Washington and Pennsylvania should appear to be responsible for a strong signal in our world-wide network of instruments designed to generate random noise, there is no obvious answer. When we look carefully and discover that the eggs might reflect our shock and dismay even before our minds and hearts express it, we confront a still deeper mystery. This network, which we designed as a metaphoric EEG for the planet, responded as if it were measuring brain waves on a planetary scale. We do not know if there is such a thing as a global consciousness, but if there is, it was moved by the events of September 11, 2001. We do not know how, but it appears that the coherence and intensity of our common reaction created a sustained pulse of order in the random flow of numbers from our instruments. These patterns where there should be none look like reflections of our concentrated focus, as the riveting events drew us from our individual concerns and melded us into an extraordinary coherence. Maybe we became, briefly, a global consciousness." From frissell at panix.com Tue Oct 2 15:02:15 2001 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 18:02:15 -0400 Subject: America needs an enema... In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010930154543.039883b8@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011002095523.05129280@brillig.panix.com> At 09:41 PM 9/30/01 -0500, measl at mfn.org wrote: >While I would *like* to think that your point is _completely_ valid and >all-encompassing, I'm afraid I can't :-( Unfortunately, we are just as >interested in "liberating" everyone else (read: forcing them do do as we >please, but not necessariily as we do) on the planet. The U.S. has a >rather intense ego problem. Actually that raises the interesting question- If we could do so without stolen money and without collateral damage, would it be moral to invade countries and kill their governments to prevent the oppression of their people? That is, since all governments violate people's rights and some violate them more than others, would attacks on governments by outsiders be proper (as internal revolution presumably is)? My poli sci prof once said "after the 'Revolution' of 1845 in England, the Liberals imposed laissez-faire." Can one impose non-imposition? Is it wrong to kill a government? Sic Semper Tyrannis. DCF From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Oct 2 16:04:56 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 18:04:56 -0500 (CDT) Subject: America needs an enema... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011002095523.05129280@brillig.panix.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Oct 2001, Duncan Frissell wrote: > If we could do so without stolen money and without collateral damage, would > it be moral to invade countries and kill their governments to prevent the > oppression of their people? No, such a policy is nothing more than 'might makes right' and 'mob rule' in the worst sort of way. What makes your 'oppression' any diffrent than theirs? When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.... > That is, since all governments violate people's rights and some violate > them more than others, would attacks on governments by outsiders be proper > (as internal revolution presumably is)? That's an assertion not a 'fact'. I look forward to your 'proof'. You might start with Arrow's Impossibility Theorem and work from there. Somebody around here doesn't understand the concept of 'freedom of choice'. It is based around a incorrect understanding of 'citizen' and 'government'. To say 'all government' is abusive is to state in equivalent terms 'all people' are abusive. You make a distinction between 'people' and 'government' that is not warranted by the facts. -- ____________________________________________________________________ The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion. Edmund Burke (1784) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From tcmay at got.net Tue Oct 2 18:08:56 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 18:08:56 -0700 Subject: cryptome down ? In-Reply-To: <007701c14b9f$ed884aa0$0100a8c0@mshome.net> Message-ID: <381354DB-B79B-11D5-9404-0050E439C473@got.net> On Tuesday, October 2, 2001, at 05:11 PM, Neil Johnson wrote: > I tried to get to cryptome, but it appears to be down. > > Any info ? > Worked for me last night, this morning, and 30 seconds ago (6:07 pm PDT). --Tim May From tcmay at got.net Tue Oct 2 18:16:42 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 18:16:42 -0700 Subject: and now for something completely different... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011002175601.04aabcd0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <4D860CB2-B79C-11D5-9404-0050E439C473@got.net> On Tuesday, October 2, 2001, at 05:56 PM, Steve Schear wrote: > Princeton University has for a while been host to a number of > computerized > studies of random number generators. The Princeton Engineering Anomalies > Research Lab (PEAR) is one. Another of them is the Global Consciousness > Project (GCP), whose data is available on the web at > http://noosphere.princeton.edu/ . .... > obvious answer. When we look carefully and discover that the eggs might > reflect our shock and dismay even before our minds and hearts express > it, > we confront a still deeper mystery. > ... > This network, which we designed as a metaphoric EEG for the planet, > responded as if it were measuring brain waves on a planetary scale. We > do > not know if there is such a thing as a global consciousness, but if > there ... Thanks for the Fruitcake Alert. --Tim May From tcmay at got.net Tue Oct 2 18:20:24 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 18:20:24 -0700 Subject: Photographing Dams In-Reply-To: <3BBA6404.2D3083BF@acmenet.net> Message-ID: On Tuesday, October 2, 2001, at 06:04 PM, Steve Furlong wrote: > Tim May wrote: > >> I know that I if I am ever stopped for photographing a dam or a bridge >> I hope I'll have the courage to tell the cop to fuck off. If arrested >> on such a bogus charge, things will escalate dramatically and I would >> be forced to Plan B. > > Strong suggestion: don't phrase it quite that way. Don't give the > jack-booted thug any real grounds for arrest, or even "detention". Fuck that. > It might be even worse for you, as a Californian, than for most > Americans. Isn't California one of the states which requires all > citizens to "cooperate" with police? With cooperation presumably defined > as "whatever the pig wants you to do". No. You really have been reading too many of the "Happy Fun Court is Not Amused" arguments and not enough about probable cause, the Fourth Amendment, the Fifth Amendment, and the C. in general. There certain is no "requirement to cooperate." Where to do otherwise intelligent people pick up these bizarre ideas? --Tim May From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Oct 2 16:24:20 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 18:24:20 -0500 Subject: Man arrested in burning US flag Message-ID: <3BBA4CA4.D5C3D50E@ssz.com> http://www.indystar.com/data/wire/out/1002ap_l91ia7g109.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion. Edmund Burke (1784) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Tue Oct 2 18:30:17 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 18:30:17 -0700 Subject: and now for something completely different... Message-ID: <200110030130.f931UHV07830@mailserver1c.hushmail.com> I felt a great disturbance in the Force . . . as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened. From freematt at coil.com Tue Oct 2 16:04:16 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 19:04:16 -0400 Subject: Investor's Business Daily: Government Trust Grows Despite Its Inability to Protect Message-ID: From njohnsn at IowaTelecom.net Tue Oct 2 17:11:19 2001 From: njohnsn at IowaTelecom.net (Neil Johnson) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 19:11:19 -0500 Subject: cryptome down ? Message-ID: <007701c14b9f$ed884aa0$0100a8c0@mshome.net> I tried to get to cryptome, but it appears to be down. Any info ? - Neil M. Johnson mailto:njohnsn at iowatelecom.net From freematt at coil.com Tue Oct 2 16:36:11 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 19:36:11 -0400 Subject: World Socialist Web On PGP creator Message-ID: PGP creator defends right to encrypt emails against calls for a ban By Mike Ingram 1 October 2001 http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/oct2001/pgp-o01.shtml [ Home page: http://www.wsws.org/index.shtml ] Philip Zimmermann, the creator of Pretty Good Privacy (PGP) encryption software, has issued a statement aimed at clarifying his attitude towards encryption in the aftermath of the September 11 terrorist attacks in New York and Washington. The statement, published on the technology site Slashdot, begins: "The Friday September 21 Washington Post carried an article by Ariana Cha that I feel misrepresents my views on the role of PGP encryption software in the September 11th terrorist attacks." Referring to a claim in the article that he was "overwhelmed with feelings of guilt", Zimmermann says, "I never implied that in the interview, and specifically went out of my way to emphasise to her that was not the case, and made her repeat back to me this point so that she would not get it wrong in the article. This misrepresentation is serious, because it implies that under the duress of terrorism I have changed my principles on the importance of cryptography for protecting privacy and civil liberties in the information age." Zimmermann says that due to the political sensitivity of the issue, he had the reporter read most of the article back to him by phone, before she submitted it for publication. He insists, "the article had no such statement or implication when she read it to me. The article that appeared in the Post was significantly shorter than the original, and had the above-mentioned crucial change in wording. I can only speculate that her editors must have taken some inappropriate liberties in abbreviating my feelings to such an inaccurate soundbite." He says he told Cha, "I felt bad about the possibility of terrorists using PGP, but that I also felt that this was outweighed by the fact that PGP was a tool for human rights around the world, which was my original intent in developing it ten years ago." Speculating on the reason for the misrepresentation in the Post article, Zimmermann says, "It appears that this nuance of reasoning was lost on someone at the Washington Post. I imagine this may be caused by this newspaper's staff being stretched to their limits last week." Zimmermann concludes his statement; "I have always enjoyed good relations with the press over the past decade, especially with the Washington Post. I'm sure they will get it right the next time." Given the seriousness of the distortion that had appeared, this reporter contacted Cha to ask if the Post would be issuing a retraction of the article. Cha said in reply, "What I did not realise was that some people would take the idea that he was feeling 'guilty' would imply that he felt he did something wrong, despite the fact that the story says he doesn't feel he made a mistake. That was not my intention and I apologise for any misunderstanding. The way we were thinking about 'guilt' was simply in terms of people feeling bad or somehow responsible, even though there may be no reason for that. She added, "I've talked to Mr. Zimmermann about this story several times since it ran-in fact the day after the story was in the paper he called me to thank me for it and tell me how much he liked it. He did not mention any possible problem until this weekend when he reached me at home." Cha said she accepted that Zimmermann, "needed to put out a statement to clarify that he had not changed his views that allowing the public to have strong encryption does more good than harm." Whatever the facts about Zimmermann's initial thoughts on the article, his attributing the misrepresentations contained in the article to editorial laxity is clearly not credible. The September 21 Post article was published amidst a concerted campaign by the Bush administration and a compliant media to channel public opinion behind support for anti-democratic measures. The tragic events of September 11 have been used to mount a wholesale attack on civil liberties, one focus of which has been an unprecedented intrusion into peoples' online privacy. Under these conditions, it is hardly accidental that an interview commissioned with Zimmermann is slanted to paint a picture of the man responsible for the development of encryption consumed with grief and regret in the aftermath of the terrorist attack. Such an article fits in with the tenor of official propaganda insisting that so horrific is the tragedy, only the most insensitive would object to a necessary curtailing of civil liberties. Zimmermann's public stance, as expressed in the Slashdot statement, is entirely justified. Saying that the Post article "showed that I'm not an ideologue when faced with a tragedy of this magnitude," he continues: "Did I re-examine my principles in the wake of this tragedy? Of course I did. But the outcome of this re-examination was the same as it was during the years of public debate, that strong cryptography does more good for a democratic society than harm, even if it can be used by terrorists. Read my lips: I have no regrets about developing PGP." Rather than the response to a terrorist outrage, the present moves to curb encryption and for closer monitoring of Internet use is the outcome of a long held desire by the security services to be able to monitor the movements and correspondence of every individual. Sections of the US political elite have never reconciled themselves to having been forced to abandon the so-called "escrow" plan, requiring decoding keys used for private messages to be given to the government. Neither have they accepted the December 1999 decision to abandon controls on the use of "strong encryption." Writing in the Online section of the Guardian newspaper in Britain, Duncan Campbell exposes the claim that encryption played a key role in regard to the terror attacks in the US. Campbell writes, "FBI investigators had been able to locate hundreds of email communications, sent 30 to 45 days before the attack... The messages, in both English and Arabic, were sent within the US and internationally... According to the FBI, the conspirators had not used encryption or concealment methods. Once found, the emails could be openly read. [Emphasis added] Campbell cites Dr Brian Gladman, formerly responsible for electronic security at the Ministry of Defence and NATO, who "believes that the reason that the terrorists didn't use encrypted emails is that would have 'stood out like a sore thumb' to NSA's surveillance network, enabling them to focus on who they were." For the real reason for the calls for increased surveillance and a ban on encryption, one must look back to the period immediately prior to the terrorist attack when tens of thousands of people were protesting against the injustices of global capital in Seattle, Melbourne, Quebec and Genoa. It was then that media commentators and government spokesmen began talking about the role of the Internet in allowing people to organise on a global scale and demanded an effective means of preventing the free association of millions of people desirous of social and political change. See Also: Internet privacy threatened following terrorist attacks on US http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/sep2001/isp-s24.shtml [24 September 2001] Copyright 1998-2001 World Socialist Web Site All rights reserved ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************** From telegraph.co.uk at emv2.com Tue Oct 2 10:46:35 2001 From: telegraph.co.uk at emv2.com (telegraph.co.uk) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 19:46:35 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Are you In The Know? Message-ID: <14799527.32351.1002044795320@as2x.emv2.com> Demonstrate your genius and win 10 Ferraris for the weekend! "Register now to play 'In The Know', the online quiz for the seriously clued-up - and win amazing prizes including a long weekend for you and 3 friends with 10 Ferraris and VIP-luxury in Italy." To register, click on the link below: http://195.200.168.169/S?b8a4c557a22dfa9a-456863-32351-33001 As a previously registered user of the Electronic Telegraph now telegraph.co.uk, we would like to invite you to play our new quiz - 'In The Know'. Every day during the month-long quiz, we'll send you 10 brain-teasing multiple-choice questions, drawn from our new channels that include news, sport, travel, fashion and much more. Answer the questions correctly and these incredible prizes could be yours: Grand Prize: This fantastic prize will be awarded to the person who correctly answers the questions in the quickest time over the duration of the competition. The winner will be asked to choose from: 10 Ferraris for the weekend for you and 3 friends. This once-in-a-lifetime experience includes 4 days spent touring Northern Italy in your chosen Ferraris, VIP treatment in the Ferrari museum and 3 nights in 4* hotels. OR Exclusive use of Eddie Irvine's 85ft yacht for you and five friends. This VIP trip includes flights, helicopter transfers and 2 nights in a luxury hotel in Monte Carlo. 'In The Know' Prize Draw: You don't have to be the fastest though. Correctly complete 10 questions on at least 10 of the 20 competition days, and your name will be entered into a prize draw to win one of 6 prizes of 3,000GBP worth of Sony Home Entertainment products, including the brand new Sony Home Cinema Projector Cineza VPL-HS1 and a DVD, HiFi system. For more information on Sony products, click on the link below: http://195.200.168.169/S?b8a4c557a22dfa9a-456864-32351-33001 Daily Prizes: In addition, prizes worth up to 1,000GBP each, are up for grabs each day for those who correctly answer all 10 questions. An amazing selection of top-class experiences are available including a helicopter away day for two, lunch for four on the Orient Express, or a romantic champagne balloon flight for four, from buyagift.co.uk at: http://195.200.168.169/S?b8a4c557a22dfa9a-456865-32351-33001 It's who you know (as well as what you know) If you recommend your friends to play, and they win any daily prize, you will win 500GBP! So there are four ways to win (but you knew that already). Show the world that you're 'In The Know' by registering now at: http://195.200.168.169/S?b8a4c557a22dfa9a-456866-32351-33001 If you do not wish to receive future updates about telegraph.co.uk, please visit: http://195.200.168.169/S?b8a4c557a22dfa9a-0-32351-33001 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3790 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Tue Oct 2 20:23:34 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 20:23:34 -0700 Subject: cryptome down ? In-Reply-To: <001201c14baa$c53394a0$0100a8c0@mshome.net> Message-ID: <069A2DFF-B7AE-11D5-9404-0050E439C473@got.net> On Tuesday, October 2, 2001, at 06:28 PM, Neil Johnson wrote: > Hmm, I get a "Cannot Find server or DNS error" > > I tried from work, and I tried it from home. > > Unless John had to ban both due to robot issues. > > Oh well. > You sure you're entering cryptome.org, and not cryptome.com? I jut tried it yet again, 8:20 pm PDT, and it works fine. --Tim May From njohnsn at IowaTelecom.net Tue Oct 2 18:28:55 2001 From: njohnsn at IowaTelecom.net (Neil Johnson) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 20:28:55 -0500 Subject: cryptome down ? References: <381354DB-B79B-11D5-9404-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: <001201c14baa$c53394a0$0100a8c0@mshome.net> Hmm, I get a "Cannot Find server or DNS error" I tried from work, and I tried it from home. Unless John had to ban both due to robot issues. Oh well. From HARTSFIELDHARTS at aol.com Tue Oct 2 17:43:52 2001 From: HARTSFIELDHARTS at aol.com (HARTSFIELDHARTS at aol.com) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 20:43:52 EDT Subject: Have a few questions for you????? Message-ID: I am very interested in your home based business, however I would like to have a phone # and mailing address to whom I am sending my money. My second concern is the shipping and handling. If you could explain that in detail that would be greatly appreciated. I can be reached at 813-805-2038 after 8pm every night. I look forward to your prompt response as I am ready to earn some great $$$$. Thanks for your time and consideration. Sincerely, Jennifer Hartsfield -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 615 bytes Desc: not available URL: From iang at abraham.cs.berkeley.edu Tue Oct 2 13:49:34 2001 From: iang at abraham.cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg) Date: 2 Oct 2001 20:49:34 GMT Subject: Congress drafts new "anti-terror" bill -- with expiration date References: <20011001204828.A25935@cluebot.com> <5.0.2.1.1.20011002130702.034e05f0@idiom.com> Message-ID: <9pd98u$k4k$2@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> In article <5.0.2.1.1.20011002130702.034e05f0 at idiom.com>, Bill Stewart wrote: >It's nice that the proposal has a sunset clause in it, >to limit the amount of time that we're subject to the >various good or bad half-baked suggestions and the various >agencies' requests for powers they've always wanted. >Expect that the worst parts will get extended indefinitely over the years :-) Note that (if I'm reading it right) the sunset only applies to Title I (the Internet surveillance bits), and not, for example, to the "hacking is terrorism" bits in Title III (section 309). The sunset also applies to the IRS ratting on income generated from terrorist activities in section 405. - Ian From grocha at neutraldomain.org Tue Oct 2 21:02:34 2001 From: grocha at neutraldomain.org (Gabriel Rocha) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 21:02:34 -0700 Subject: cryptome down ? In-Reply-To: <200110030209.WAA10392@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>; from jya@pipeline.com on Tue, Oct 02, 2001 at 10:02:31PM -0700 References: <381354DB-B79B-11D5-9404-0050E439C473@got.net> <001201c14baa$c53394a0$0100a8c0@mshome.net> <200110030209.WAA10392@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <20011002210234.V43984@neutraldomain.org> jya.com is fine, cryptome.org's dns servers haven't updated. You might well be using old BIND zone files, if your version of BIND was upgraded, make sure you check the SOA section of the zone file, as with newer versions different syntax was used, check out your logs for named errors on startup. Let me know if that makes any sense. --Gabe gabe at lurch:~$ whois cryptome.org Whois Server Version 1.3 Domain names in the .com, .net, and .org domains can now be registered with many different competing registrars. Go to http://www.internic.net for detailed information. Domain Name: CRYPTOME.ORG Registrar: NETWORK SOLUTIONS, INC. Whois Server: whois.networksolutions.com Referral URL: http://www.networksolutions.com Name Server: NS1.SECURE.NET Name Server: NS2.SECURE.NET Updated Date: 01-oct-2001 gabe at lurch:~$ host -a cryptome.org NS1.SECURE.NET Using domain server: Name: NS1.SECURE.NET Address: 192.41.1.10 Aliases: Trying null domain rcode = 0 (Success), ancount=2 The following answer is not authoritative: The following answer is not verified as authentic by the server: cryptome.org 114490 IN NS NS1.SECURE.NET cryptome.org 114490 IN NS NS2.SECURE.NET For authoritative answers, see: cryptome.org 114490 IN NS NS1.SECURE.NET cryptome.org 114490 IN NS NS2.SECURE.NET Additional information: NS1.SECURE.NET 86400 IN A 192.41.1.10 NS2.SECURE.NET 86400 IN A 161.58.9.10 -- "It's not brave, if you're not scared." From sfurlong at acmenet.net Tue Oct 2 18:04:04 2001 From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 21:04:04 -0400 Subject: Photographing Dams References: <1E5AA9C2-B795-11D5-9404-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: <3BBA6404.2D3083BF@acmenet.net> Tim May wrote: > I know that I if I am ever stopped for photographing a dam or a bridge > I hope I'll have the courage to tell the cop to fuck off. If arrested > on such a bogus charge, things will escalate dramatically and I would > be forced to Plan B. Strong suggestion: don't phrase it quite that way. Don't give the jack-booted thug any real grounds for arrest, or even "detention". Assuming the pigs didn't lie, that Indiana man who was arrested for burning a flag and tossing a firecracker at the pigs screwed up. He should have gone along peacefully, then sued their asses off for false arrest, misuse of legal process, and whatever else he could think of. (Actually, he should have killed them for attempted false arrest, but in today's climate that would only have gotten him killed. The best he could do, today, is sue them.) It might be even worse for you, as a Californian, than for most Americans. Isn't California one of the states which requires all citizens to "cooperate" with police? With cooperation presumably defined as "whatever the pig wants you to do". > (Sounds harsh. "They're just doing their job." Nope. They don't have > any legal right to stop persons without probable cause. Looking Arabic > is not probable cause. Photographing a dam is not probable cause. Being > suspicious is not probable cause.) > Things are going to get very, very violent if this stampede toward a > police state continues. I hope so, but I'm afraid not. So long as the heat is turned up only when there's plausible cover, the frog will stay in the pot. (That's a base canard on frogs, by the way. A few years back some scientist boiled a frog slowly. The frog hopped out of the water as soon as it got uncomfortably warm.) SRF -- Steve Furlong Computer Condottiere Have GNU, Will Travel 617-670-3793 "Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Tue Oct 2 19:54:28 2001 From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 21:54:28 -0500 Subject: Photographing Dams References: Message-ID: <3BBA7DA3.8E87E09B@cybershamanix.com> Tim May wrote: > Amendment, the Fifth Amendment, and the C. in general. There certain is > no "requirement to cooperate." > > Where to do otherwise intelligent people pick up these bizarre ideas? > Probably because of all the heretofore unheard of things happening to people in the courts these days. My attorneys recently spent some time explaining to me about the new trend in Wisconsin courts and police. It seems that if they are "investigating" a crime, and you become "uncooperative" in any way -- not meaning you have to incriminate yourself, just "uncooperative" -- they charge you with obstructing an officer, a class C felony. And it generally sticks. Apparently no one thus far has taken it into fed court, or at least been successful in getting it overturned, and it's become a real threat. Interesting times we live in. -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 Home 920-233-5820 hseaver at cybershamanix.com http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html From Anti_Immigration-owner at yahoogroups.com Tue Oct 2 14:54:42 2001 From: Anti_Immigration-owner at yahoogroups.com (Anti_Immigration Moderator) Date: 2 Oct 2001 21:54:42 -0000 Subject: File - Friend, I saw that you unsubscribed Message-ID: <1002059682.972.44771.s2@yahoogroups.com> Dear Friend, I saw that you unsubscribed from the anti-immigration email list. I am the moderator of this group. Please Read the Census Burea statistics at the bottom of this email. Would you please take a moment and write me and tell me why you unsubscribed and tell me how I can, could or should improve the anti_immigration email list. I want to thank you in advance for helping me make this email list more pleasing to more people by offering your suggestions. You may write me at BobfromMichigan74 at hotmail.com Friend, you and I corresponded many times in the past. However, I have switched ISP's and email addresses several times and you may not recognize me. The last time we corresponded I do not remember if I was using AOL or another ISP. If you wish to be removed from my anti-immigration email list just let me know and it will be immediately done? I purposely moderate this list to keep the volume of emails very low. The anti-immigration email list only generates perhaps one or two emails per day on average. Peace be unto you, Bob from Michigan, The Moderator of this email list. PS - It would make me very happy if you would re-subscribe and rejoin the email list. Please write me at BobfromMichigan74 at Hotmail.com ATTN: VERY IMPORTANT INFORMATION FOLLOWS BELOW - PLEASE READ THIS AND SEND IT TO YOUR FRIENDS AND FAMILY. The following information comes from the Census Bureau http://www.census.gov/ http://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0029/tab04.html http://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0029/tab03.html Legal Immigration - Total numbers for each decade is listed as follows 1990 � 19,767,316 1980 � 14,079,906 1970 � 9,619,302 1960 � 9,738,091 FRIENDS - PLEASE NOTE THAT OVER 45 MILLION LEGAL (YES I SAID �LEGAL�) IMMIGRANTS HAVE ENTERED THE COUNTRY SINCE 1970. ADD TO THE 45 MILLION LEGAL IMMIGRANTS ANOTHER 15 TO 30 MILLION ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS AND YOU HAVE A TOTAL OF 60 TO 75 MILLION PEOPLE IN AMERICA WHO WERE BORN IN A FOREIGN COUNTRY. EVEN AN IDIOT CAN SEE THAT THE VERY COMPOSITION OF AMERICA IS BEING INTENTIONALLY CHANGED BY THE IMMIGRATION POLICY OF OUR GOVERNMENT. GOD HELP US IF WE DO NOT STOP THIS NOW!!! ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I am going to miss you... please come back soon. Bob, Moderator of anti_immigration email list. Sincerely Yours, Bob from Michigan. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ BELOW ARE THE ADDRESS'ES FOR SUBSCRIBING & POSTING TO THE ANTI-IMMIGRATION GROUP: To Re-Subscribe: Anti_Immigration-subscribe at yahoogroups.com To Post message: Anti_Immigration at yahoogroups.com From sfurlong at acmenet.net Tue Oct 2 18:57:19 2001 From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 21:57:19 -0400 Subject: Photographing Dams References: Message-ID: <3BBA707F.9A7B0776@acmenet.net> Tim May wrote: > > On Tuesday, October 2, 2001, at 06:04 PM, Steve Furlong wrote: > > > Tim May wrote: > > > >> I know that I if I am ever stopped for photographing a dam or a bridge > >> I hope I'll have the courage to tell the cop to fuck off. If arrested > >> on such a bogus charge, things will escalate dramatically and I would > >> be forced to Plan B. > > > > Strong suggestion: don't phrase it quite that way. Don't give the > > jack-booted thug any real grounds for arrest, or even "detention". > > Fuck that. Some quick research shows me that some states no longer make it aggravated harassment to swear at a cop, though it's still an offense in some states. I couldn't find Indiana's status on that, but it looks like your method might be successful. > > It might be even worse for you, as a Californian, than for most > > Americans. Isn't California one of the states which requires all > > citizens to "cooperate" with police? With cooperation presumably defined > > as "whatever the pig wants you to do". > > No. You really have been reading too many of the "Happy Fun Court is Not > Amused" arguments and not enough about probable cause, the Fourth > Amendment, the Fifth Amendment, and the C. in general. There certain is > no "requirement to cooperate." I really thought I had come across that in Findlaw or somewhere. Maybe it was a proposal that was shot down, maybe it's in other states, maybe you're wrong. I don't see it in a Findlaw search just now, but I'm not even sure what it would be called. Certainly not the "Citizen Bend Over and Spread 'Em Act", but things like "Police Assistance Act" and "Citizens Cooperation Act" didn't give any hits, either. > Where to do otherwise intelligent people pick up these bizarre ideas? Heh. If you're referring to me, events of the past few days argue against my intelligence. More generally, it's probably a mixture of laziness, time pressure, the value of the effort needed to check every "fact" before posting, and "knowing" that something is true and therefore need not be checked. Posters to mailing lists and Usenet could treat every post as a submission to a refereed journal, but by the time the fact-checking was done, the thread would have died out. SRF -- Steve Furlong Computer Condottiere Have GNU, Will Travel 617-670-3793 "Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Tue Oct 2 19:58:15 2001 From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 21:58:15 -0500 Subject: cryptome down ? References: <381354DB-B79B-11D5-9404-0050E439C473@got.net> <200110030209.WAA10392@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <3BBA7E86.9BC564EB@cybershamanix.com> I can't reach it from here either, and doing a nslookup on cryptome.org comes back with nothing. -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 Home 920-233-5820 hseaver at cybershamanix.com http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html From jya at pipeline.com Tue Oct 2 22:02:31 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 22:02:31 -0700 Subject: cryptome down ? In-Reply-To: <001201c14baa$c53394a0$0100a8c0@mshome.net> References: <381354DB-B79B-11D5-9404-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: <200110030209.WAA10392@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> There have been a half dozen folks who said today they could not access Cryptome, but it's accessible from here. And there are only a half dozen blocks of rampaging bots. However, we are in the process of switching the archives to new machines and IP address changes are in the works -- completion due any day now. I had thought that was the problem but at the moment cryptome.org and jya.com still go to the current machine. The reason for the change is that the current machine has been swamped with worms and our ISP, Verio, has not been able to get rid of them, not even with a total wipe of the storage and new programs, nor have any suggestions worked. So two new machines have been rented to try a fresh start. Cryptome on one, jya.com on the other -- heretofore both were on a single machine. Copies of the archives have been transferred, so there are two sets at the moment, the current box and the new ones. New addresses: cryptome.org 161.58.201.197 jya.com 128.121.222.215 We're dreading the ravenous worms coming, and the locust-plague of spiders and bots. We'll see which box gets hit first and from where the predators originate. Oddly, even before we loaded one of the machines its log showed a sustained worm attack of hours long error messages, then the hits ceased, as if worms withdrew to await http prey. Weird shit out there. From blancw at cnw.com Tue Oct 2 22:20:54 2001 From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 22:20:54 -0700 Subject: and now for something completely different... In-Reply-To: <200110030130.f931UHV07830@mailserver1c.hushmail.com> Message-ID: keyser-soze quoth: :I felt a great disturbance in the Force . . . as if millions of :voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I :fear something terrible has happened. : .......... and Darth Vader had been one of the elite Jedi before he turned to the Dark Side. . . Sometimes like imitation of art, is life. .. Blanc From declan at well.com Tue Oct 2 19:32:38 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 22:32:38 -0400 Subject: Congress drafts new "anti-terror" bill -- with expiration date In-Reply-To: <9pd98u$k4k$2@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>; from iang@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu on Tue, Oct 02, 2001 at 08:49:34PM +0000 References: <20011001204828.A25935@cluebot.com> <5.0.2.1.1.20011002130702.034e05f0@idiom.com> <9pd98u$k4k$2@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <20011002223238.B16307@cluebot.com> On Tue, Oct 02, 2001 at 08:49:34PM +0000, Ian Goldberg wrote: > Note that (if I'm reading it right) the sunset only applies to Title I > (the Internet surveillance bits), and not, for example, to the "hacking > is terrorism" bits in Title III (section 309). The sunset also applies Ian: I think that's right (based on my reading of it yesterday, so you may not want to treat this recollection as fact). But i think the def'n of hacker-terrorist was also narrowed. -Declan From tcmay at got.net Tue Oct 2 22:35:42 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 22:35:42 -0700 Subject: cryptome down ? In-Reply-To: <3BBA8860.9336EFA7@cybershamanix.com> Message-ID: <7C451035-B7C0-11D5-9404-0050E439C473@got.net> On Tuesday, October 2, 2001, at 08:40 PM, Harmon Seaver wrote: > I've just tried it from a server in MN, and another one in AL, > and, previously, from here in WI. > Nada -- it doesn't exiest anymore. > "can't find cryptome.org: Non-existent host/domain" > "Pursuant to the Defense of the Homeland Act of 2001, isolation of regions deemed hostile to the Reich, er, the Heimat, er, the Homeland, shall commence after the 9-11-01 Event of next week, er, last week. You do not need to adjust your Internet connection--we are in control. We will control all that you see and hear." --Tim May From declan at well.com Tue Oct 2 19:38:38 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 22:38:38 -0400 Subject: Photographing Dams In-Reply-To: <3BBA6006.FFED56C3@lsil.com>; from mmotyka@lsil.com on Tue, Oct 02, 2001 at 05:47:02PM -0700 References: <3BBA6006.FFED56C3@lsil.com> Message-ID: <20011002223838.C16307@cluebot.com> I wrote in January about a Capitol Police (federal) cop telling me I couldn't take a photo of the Capitol building from a public sidewalk: http://www.politechbot.com/p-01636.html Not an urban legend. -Declan On Tue, Oct 02, 2001 at 05:47:02PM -0700, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: > Aren't there cases of persons having had their film confiscated for > photographing federal installations from public rights of way or is that > the stuff of urban/net legends? Is does sound hokey to me. > > Mike From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Tue Oct 2 20:40:20 2001 From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 22:40:20 -0500 Subject: cryptome down ? References: <069A2DFF-B7AE-11D5-9404-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: <3BBA8860.9336EFA7@cybershamanix.com> I've just tried it from a server in MN, and another one in AL, and, previously, from here in WI. Nada -- it doesn't exiest anymore. "can't find cryptome.org: Non-existent host/domain" -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 Home 920-233-5820 hseaver at cybershamanix.com http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html From njohnsn at IowaTelecom.net Tue Oct 2 20:41:13 2001 From: njohnsn at IowaTelecom.net (Neil Johnson) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 22:41:13 -0500 Subject: cryptome down ? References: <069A2DFF-B7AE-11D5-9404-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: <003701c14bbd$40412d80$0100a8c0@mshome.net> Yep, http://cryptome.org The IP address that John sent DOES work, so it is looking like an DNS issue. -Neil ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim May" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 10:23 PM Subject: Re: cryptome down ? > On Tuesday, October 2, 2001, at 06:28 PM, Neil Johnson wrote: > > > Hmm, I get a "Cannot Find server or DNS error" > > > > I tried from work, and I tried it from home. > > > > Unless John had to ban both due to robot issues. > > > > Oh well. > > > > > You sure you're entering cryptome.org, and not cryptome.com? > > I jut tried it yet again, 8:20 pm PDT, and it works fine. > > > --Tim May From jya at pipeline.com Tue Oct 2 22:54:22 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 22:54:22 -0700 Subject: Congress drafts new "anti-terror" bill -- with expiration date In-Reply-To: <20011002223238.B16307@cluebot.com> References: <9pd98u$k4k$2@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> <20011001204828.A25935@cluebot.com> <5.0.2.1.1.20011002130702.034e05f0@idiom.com> <9pd98u$k4k$2@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <200110030300.XAA09387@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> There are numerous changes in PATRIOT from MATA and ATA, and it has over twice their length. It still uses the same obfuscation style of burying dozens of proposals as modifications of existing legislation, making it hard to understand what is being proposed without jigsaw puzzling the pieces into the legislation being modified to see what the whole picture will be when assembled. An underhanded method compared to Leahy's open-book bill. Creepy to read the massive shutdown planned for the Canadian border. Canada is surely to scream economic warfare at the US's pressure to close liberal immigration and civil liberty loopholes -- it doesn't look good for ZKS. What's the assessment within, Ian? To be sure, the US and its iron-maidenish allies are rushing to close loopholes around the world, and one bad effect of PATRIOT is for it to be used as a model for other countries to toe the line and consequent clampdown on security technologies. And pressure to shut Sealand, perhaps to require the Bunkers to allow rummaging the precious data. PATRIOT does just about everything Stewart Baker's Defense Science Board panel recommended for legal policy to protect US national security, in particular the sharing of domestic law enforcement, FBI, DoJ and IRS databanks with the military and the spooks and vice versa. Under the Ashcroft plan anyone can be declared by the Attorney General to be a terrorist or a supporter/advisor of terrorism and with that all civil liberities of the targets disappear. For example, those constitutional rights Tim claimed a hour ago are still in effect in the US. But not if this bill passes. I suspect insulting a cop will become quickly a terrorist's mark of Cain. Much less refusing a National Guard order at the airport. A quick addition of the misbehaver to the US Stasi databank and a lifetime investigation and harassment commences -- or if the target gets Tim-like uppity a hole in the head made by lead or enforced psychotherapy, totally approved by terrorist-drunk courts of jurisdiction. USA. USA. 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"HERE IT IS BELOW" _________________________________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________________________ *** Print This Now For Future Reference *** The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in taking a look at. It can be started with VERY LITTLE investment and the income return is TREMENDOUS!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ If you would like to make at least $46,000 in less than 90 days! Please read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY. It does not require you to come into contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail. If you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been waiting for, THIS IS IT! Simply follow the instructions, and your dreams will come true. This multi-level e-mail order marketing program works perfectly...100\% EVERY TIME. E-mail is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of advertising NOW!!! The longer you wait, the more people will be doing business using e-mail. Get your piece of this action!!! MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability. It is being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research and the Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50\% and 65\% of all goods and services will be sold through multi-level methods by the mid to late 1990's. This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 3,500,000 millionaires in the WORLD, 20\% ( 700,000) made their fortune in the last several years in MLM. Moreover, statistics show that over 100 people become millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing. You may have heard this story before, but over the summer Donald Trump (A MULTI-BILLIONAIRE, ONE OF THE WEALTHIEST MEN IN THE WORLD) made an appearance on the David Letterman show. Dave asked him what he would do if he lost everything and had to start over from scratch. Without hesitating, Trump said he would find a good network marketing company and get to work. The audience started to hoot and boo him. He looked out at the audience and dead-panned his response "That's why I'm sitting up here and you are all sitting out there!" With network marketing you have two sources of income. Direct commissions from sales you make yourself and commissions from sales made by people you introduce to the business. Residual income is the secret of the wealthy. It means investing time or money once and getting paid again and again and again. In network marketing, it also means getting paid for the work of others. This program is currently being utilized in more than 50 different countries across the world. The enclosed INF0RMATION is something I almost let slip through my fingers. Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave some thought and study to it. My name is Johnathon Rourke. Two years ago, the corporation I worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was eliminated. After unproductive job interviews, I decided to open my own business. Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial problems. I owed my family, friends and creditors over $35,000. The economy was taking a toll on my business and I just couldn't seem to make ends meet. I had to refinance and borrow against my home to support my family and struggling business. AT THAT MOMENT something significant happened in my life and I am writing to share the experience in hopes that this will change your life FOREVER FINANCIALLY!!! In mid December, I received this program via e-mail. Six month's prior to receiving this program I had been sending away for INF0RMATION on various business opportunities. All of the programs I received, in my opinion, were not cost effective. They were either too difficult for me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to risk to see if they would work or not. One claimed that I would make a million dollars in one year...it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it! But like I was saying, in December of 1997 I received this program. I didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing list. THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!! After reading it several times, to make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes. Here was a MONEY MAKING PHENOMENON. I could invest as much as I wanted to start, without putting me further into debt. After I got a pencil and paper and figured it out, I would at least get my money back. But like most of you I was still a little skeptical and a little worried about the legal aspects of it all. So I checked it out with the U.S. Post Office (1-800-725-2161 24-hrs) and they confirmed that it is indeed legal! After determining the program was LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT." Initially I sent out 100,000 e-mails. It cost me about $15 for my time on-line. The great thing about e-mail is that I don't need any money for printing to send out the program, and because all of my orders are fulfilled via e-mail, the only expense is my time. I am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off, but I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how much money it cost me. In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1. By January 13, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1. Your goal is to "RECEIVE at least 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN 2 WEEKS. IF YOU DON'T, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!" My first step in making $46,000 in 90 days was done. By January 30, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2. Your goal is to "RECEIVE AT LEAST 100+ ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN 2 WEEKS. IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $46,000 GOAL." Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 96 more than I needed. So I sat back and relaxed. By March 1, of my e-mailing of 100,000, I received $42,000 with more coming in every day. I paid off ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car. Please take time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER!!! Remember, it won't work if you don't try it. This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rules of not trying to place your name in a different place. It won't work, you'll lose out on a lot of money! In order for this program to work, you must meet your goal of 20+ orders for REPORT #1, and 100+ orders for REPORT #2 and you will make $46,000 or more in 90 days. I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS!!! If you choose not to participate in this program, I am sorry. It really is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you. If you choose to participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to financial security. If you are a fellow business owner and are if financial trouble like I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a sign. I DID! Sincerely, Johnathon Rourke A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: By the time you have read the enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a program, and one that is legal, could not have been created by an amateur. Let me tell you a little about myself. I had a profitable business for 10 years. Then in 1979 my business began falling off. I was doing the same things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't working. Finally, I figured it out. It wasn't me, it was the economy. Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that had been with us since 1945. I don't have to tell you what happened to the unemployment rate... because many of you know from first hand experience. There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever before. The middle class was vanishing. Those who knew what they were doing invested wisely and moved up. Those who did not, including those who never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks of the poor. As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER." The traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that. You have just received INF0RMATION that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT." You can make more money in the next few months than you have ever imagined. I should also point out that I will not see a penny of this money, nor anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program. I have already made over 4 MILLION DOLLARS! I have retired from the program after sending out over 1,600,000 programs. Now I have several offices that make this and several other programs here and over seas. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report to everyone you can think of. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more...and your name will be on everyone of them! Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, INF0RMATION, materials and opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW! "THINK ABOUT IT" Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil and figure out what could happen when YOU participate. Figure out the worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will still make lot of money! You will definitely get back what you invested. Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in. IT WORKS! Jody Jacobs, Richmond, VA HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU THOUSANDS OF DOLLAR$ INSTRUCTIONS: This method of raising capital REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME. I am sure that you could use up to $46,000 or more in the next 90 days. Before you say "BULL... ", please read this program carefully. This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making opportunity. Basically, this is what you do: As with all multi-level businesses, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products. Because of the global nature of the internet, you will be able to recruit new multi-level business partners from all over the world, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent. YOUR ORDERS COME BY MAIL AND ARE FILLED BY E-MAIL, so you are not involved in personal selling. You do it privately in your own home, store or office. This is the GREATEST Multi-Level Mail Order Marketing anywhere. This is what you MUST do: 1. Order all 5 reports shown on the list below (you can't sell them if you don't order them). a. For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, and YOUR NAME & RETURN ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to the person whose name appears on the list next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE IN CASE OF ANY MAIL PROBLEMS! b. When you place your order, make sure you order each of the five reports. You will need all five reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. c. Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the five reports. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. 2. IMPORTANT-- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than is instructed below in steps "a" through "g" or you will lose out on the majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you'll also see how it doesn't work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter it, it will not work. a. Look below for the listing of available reports. b. After you've ordered the five reports, take this advertisement and REM0VE the name and address under REPORT #5. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their $46,000! Also, change the name of the company, the address, and the REM0VE e-mail address on the top of this document to your own. c. Move the name and address under REPORT #4 down to REPORT #5. d. Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to REPORT #4. e. Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3. f. Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to REPORT #2. g. Insert your name/address in the REPORT #1 position. Please make sure you copy every name and address ACCURATELY! 3. Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and save it to your computer. Make NO changes to the instruction portion of this letter. Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can afford $25). You obviously already have an Internet connection and e-mail is FREE! To assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing INF0RMATION which includes how to send bulk e-mails, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much, much more. In addition you will be provided with INF0MATION on Internet Marketing Clubs such as INTERNET MARKETING RESOURCES(IMR): This is one the premiere internet marketing clubs on the INTERNET. This club provides a forum where internet marketers from all over the world can exchange ideas and secrets on Internet Marketing. In addition, members of this club are provided free internet marketing tools and services for the Do-Yourself-Internet-Marketer. They will provide you with free bulk e-mail software and up to 1,000,000 fresh e-mail addresses each week. This club will provide you with hundreds of free resources which include: How to obtain free web sites, how to obtain top rankings in search engines for your web-site, how to send bulk e-mail into AOL and Compuserve, how to market your products on newsgroups, free classified ads, electronic malls, bulletin boards, banner ads and much more. There are two primary methods of building your downline: METHOD #1: SENDING BULK E-MAIL Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we'll assume you and all those involved send out only 2,000 programs each. Let's also assume that the mailing receives a 0.3\% response. Using a good list the response could be much better. Also, many people will send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000. But continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs. With a 0.3\% response, that is only 6 orders for REPORT #1. Those 6 people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 12,000. Out of those 0.3\%, 36 people respond and order REPORT #2. Those 36 mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 72,000. The 0.3\% response to that is 216 orders for REPORT #3. Those 216 send out 2,000 programs each for a 432,000 total. The 0.3\% response to that is 1,296 orders for REPORT #4. Those 1,296 send out 2,000 programs each for a 2,592,000 total. The 0.3\% response to that is 7,776 orders for REPORT #5. That's 7,776 $5 bills for you, CASH!!! Your total income in this example is $30 + $180 + $1,080+ $6,480 + $38,880 for a total of $46,650!!! REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,994 OUT OF THE 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE, OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF 2,000. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! By the way, your cost to participate in this is practically nothing. You obviously already have an internet connection and e-mail is FREE!!! REPORT #2 and #5 will show you the best methods for bulk emailing, tell you where to obtain free bulk e-mail software and where to obtain e-mail lists and show you how to send out 1,000,000 e-mails for free. METHOD #2 - PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET 1. Advertising on the 'Net is very, very inexpensive, and there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise. Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it works. Assume your goal is to get ONLY 6 people to participate on your first level. (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the internet will EASILY get a larger response.) Also assume that everyone else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 6 downline members. Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results below. 1st level--your 6 members with $5 ($5 x 6)........................$30 2nd level--6 members from those 6 ($5 x 36)....................$180 3rd level--6 members from those 36 ($5 x 216)............ $1,080 4th level--6 members from those 216 ($5 x 1,296)....... $6,480 5th level-6 members from those 1,296 ($5 x 7,776)... $38,880 .................................................$46,650 _________________________________________________________________________ Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only recruit 6 people each. Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20 people to participate! Many people will get 100's of participants! THINK ABOUT IT! For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the report they ordered. THAT'S IT! ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS! This will guarantee that the e-mail THEY send out, with YOUR name and address on it, will be prompt because they can't advertise until they receive the report! _________________________________________________________________________ AVAILABLE REPORTS _________________________________________________________________________ *** Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME *** Notes: ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH (U.S. CURRENCY) FOR EACH REPORT CHECKS NOT ACCEPTED ALWAYS SEND YOUR ORDER VIA FIRST CLASS MAIL Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, include: (a) the number & name of the report you are ordering (b) your e-mail address (So your report can come by email) (c) your name & postal address. **** Place your name in the 1st report. Move the rest of the names down causing whoever is in 5th position to go off the list.**** PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW: ______________________________________________________ REPORT #1 "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #1 FROM Ross Pawley 540 NW 2nd St. Apt7 Prineville, OR 97754 ______________________________________________________ REPORT #2 "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk E-mail on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #2 FROM: Spatter 2700 Waterview Pkwy. #4612 Richardson, TX 75080 __________________________________________________ REPORT #3 "The Secrets to Multilevel Marketing on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #3 FROM: Jamie Strickland P.o Box 253 Charlton Heights, WV 25040 ______________________________________________________ REPORT #4 "How to become a Millionaire utilizing the Power of Multilevel Marketing and the Internet" ORDER REPORT #4 FROM: Andrea Hataway 608 W. 8th St. Lancaster, TX 75146 ______________________________________________________ REPORT #5 "How to SEND 1,000,000 e-mails for FREE" ORDER REPORT #5 FROM: Robin Stice 690 Crespi Dr Pacifica, CA 94044 ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ There currently more than 175,000,000 people online worldwide! ******* TIPS FOR SUCCESS ******* * TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS! Be prompt, professional, and follow the directions accurately. * Send for the five reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when the orders start coming in because: When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested product/report. * ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE. * Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the instructions exactly, your results WILL BE SUCCESSFUL! * ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED! ******* YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES ******* Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: If you don't receive 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT#2. If you don't, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a DIFFERENT report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. If you want to generate more income, send another batch of e-mails or continue placing ads and start the whole process again! There is no limit to the income you will generate from this business! Before you make your decision as to whether or not you participate in this program. Please answer one question. DO YOU WANT TO CHANGE YOUR LIFE? If the answer is yes, please look at the following facts about this program: 1. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST ANYTHING TO PRODUCE! 2. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST ANYTHING TO SHIP! 3. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST YOU ANYTHING TO ADVERTISE! 4. YOU ARE UTILIZING THE POWER OF THE INTERNET AND THE POWER OF MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING TO DISTRIBUTE YOUR PRODUCT ALL OVER THE WORLD! 5. YOUR ONLY EXPENSES OTHER THAN YOUR INITIAL $25 INVESTMENT IS YOUR TIME! 6. VIRTUALLY ALL OF THE INCOME YOU GENERATE FROM THIS PROGRAM IS PURE PROFIT! ******* T E S T I M O N I A L S ******* This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't work and you'll lose a lot of potential income. I'm living proof that it works. It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with little cost to you. If you do choose to participate, follow the program exactly, and you'll be on your way to financial security. Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody, and I live in Chicago, IL. I am a cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received the program I grumbled to Jody about receiving "junk mail." I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I "knew" it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing didn't work... well, the laugh was on me! Within two weeks she had received over 50 responses. Within 45 days she had received over $147,200 in $5 bills! I was shocked! I was sure that I had it all figured and that it wouldn't work. I AM a believer now. I have joined Jody in her "hobby." I did have seven more years until retirement, but I think of the "rat race" and it's not for me. We owe it all to MLM. Mitchell Wolf MD., Chicago, IL The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount of money in a short time. I was approached several times before I checked this out. I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in the first 14 weeks, with money still coming in. Sincerely yours, Pam Hedland Halmstad, Sweden Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back. I surprised when I found my medium-size post office box crammed with orders! For awhile, it got so overloaded that I had to start picking up my mail at the window. I'll make more money this year than any 10 years of my life before. The nice thing about this deal is that it doesn't matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return. Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed another program, .11 months passed then it came...I didn't delete this one!...I made more than $41,000 on the first try!! Mohamed, Cairo, Egypt This is my third time to participate in this plan. We have quit our jobs, and will soon buy a home on the beach and live off the interest on our money. The only way on earth that this plan will work for you is if you do it. For your sake, and for your family's sake don't pass up this golden opportunity. Good luck and happy spending! Sam Lee Suva, Fiji Islands ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM! NOW IS THE TIME FOR YOUR TURN DECISIVE ACTION YIELDS POWERFUL RESULTS _________________________________________________________________________ PLEASE NOTE: If you need help with starting a business, registering a business name, learning how income tax is handled, etc., contact your local office of the Small Business Administration (a Federal agency) 1-(800)827-5722 for free help and answers to questions. Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via telephone and free seminars about business tax requirements. Your earnings and results are highly dependant on your activities and advertising. This letter constitutes no guarantees stated nor implied. In the event that it is determined that this letter constitutes a guarantee of any kind, that guarantee is now void. Any testimonials or amounts of earnings listed in this letter may be factual or non-verifiable. If you have any question of the legality of this letter contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices Federal Trade Commission Bureau of Consumer Protection in Washington DC. ______________________________________________________________________ Under Bill s.1618 TITLE III passed by the 105th US Congress this letter cannot be considered spam as long as the sender includes contact information and a method of removal. To be Removed please reply to email with the words REMOVE in the subject area. From sissy at statesville.net Tue Oct 2 20:18:38 2001 From: sissy at statesville.net (Michael Southard) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 23:18:38 -0400 Subject: making money Message-ID: <200110022318.AA1585840512@statesville.net> hi if this is about making money in stuffing envelopes please send me more information one it my name is michelle email is sissy at statesville.net thank you From declan at well.com Tue Oct 2 20:57:41 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 23:57:41 -0400 Subject: cryptome down ? In-Reply-To: <003701c14bbd$40412d80$0100a8c0@mshome.net>; from njohnsn@IowaTelecom.net on Tue, Oct 02, 2001 at 10:41:13PM -0500 References: <069A2DFF-B7AE-11D5-9404-0050E439C473@got.net> <003701c14bbd$40412d80$0100a8c0@mshome.net> Message-ID: <20011002235741.D16307@cluebot.com> Agreed. It is a DNS issue. nslookup from one box without cryptome.org cached gives me: "can't find cryptome.org: Non-existent host/domain" John might want to temporarily redirect cryptome.org to the IP address (if his setup allows him to) so people get the hint, and make a note of the IP address in large type on his homepage. Since John talked about some server changes with Verio, it's likely their DNS problem. Also, whois shows the cryptome.org record was updated Oct 1 and is pointing to secure.net, whatever that is. -Declan On Tue, Oct 02, 2001 at 10:41:13PM -0500, Neil Johnson wrote: > Yep, http://cryptome.org > > The IP address that John sent DOES work, so it is looking like an DNS issue. > > -Neil > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tim May" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 10:23 PM > Subject: Re: cryptome down ? > > > > On Tuesday, October 2, 2001, at 06:28 PM, Neil Johnson wrote: > > > > > Hmm, I get a "Cannot Find server or DNS error" > > > > > > I tried from work, and I tried it from home. > > > > > > Unless John had to ban both due to robot issues. > > > > > > Oh well. > > > > > > > > > You sure you're entering cryptome.org, and not cryptome.com? > > > > I jut tried it yet again, 8:20 pm PDT, and it works fine. > > > > > > --Tim May From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Tue Oct 2 21:34:38 2001 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 00:34:38 -0400 Subject: Congress drafts new "anti-terror" bill -- with expiration date References: <9pd98u$k4k$2@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> <20011001204828.A25935@cluebot.com> <5.0.2.1.1.20011002130702.034e05f0@idiom.com> <9pd98u$k4k$2@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> <200110030300.XAA09387@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <3BBA955E.6050405@dragonsweb.org> John Young wrote: > USA. USA. > > Remember, do not say out loud, "fuck that." Think abou it, > then decide to self-suppress for a couple of years, then > a couple more, then more after that. It's a long, long campaign > the leaders warn, just like their predecessors said the main > enemy is within. > > > Fuck that. :-) jbdigriz From bill.stewart at pobox.com Wed Oct 3 02:35:56 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 02:35:56 -0700 Subject: cryptome down ? In-Reply-To: <15290.39023.217055.371976@nodens.uraeus.com> References: <200110030209.WAA10392@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> <381354DB-B79B-11D5-9404-0050E439C473@got.net> <200110030209.WAA10392@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011003022534.0382d920@idiom.com> Another useful stopgap is the dynamic DNS providers, such as dyndns.org, which give you a third-level domain and convenient tools for updating your information. They're oriented towards the dial/dsl/cablemodem users who want to run web sites and other servers from machines that have dynamic IP addresses - your machine keeps them updated with your current address, so people who connect to yourmachine.theirservice.net get to wherever you are now. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Wed Oct 3 03:06:02 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 03:06:02 -0700 Subject: cryptome down ? In-Reply-To: <200110030959.FAA08423@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> References: <5.0.2.1.1.20011003022534.0382d920@idiom.com> <15290.39023.217055.371976@nodens.uraeus.com> <200110030209.WAA10392@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> <381354DB-B79B-11D5-9404-0050E439C473@got.net> <200110030209.WAA10392@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011003030231.03831310@idiom.com> At 05:52 AM 10/03/2001 -0700, John Young wrote: >However, now I learn that Verio uses one DNS server for >the two boxes so an attacker needs only to throw one stone >to kill both our birds. Grrr. That is what we wanted to avoid. > >A smart sales rep assured me that this was the way to >go, after I had placed two orders for two machines to keep >them separate. No need for that he said, let me tell you >a better way. No doubt my simple-minded security method >would have been breached by some Verio setup based on >its own Japanese government spying principles, which is >to say I can't escape being terrorized by Ashcroft. Domain names are supposed to have at least one primary DNS server and at least one secondary DNS server, and some names will arrange to have more than one secondary. It wouldn't be at all surprising if Verio uses one server as the primary for both names and one as the secondary for both. It's probably worthwhile for you to arrange another secondary - there are crypto-friendly sites that will probably be happy to do so (e.g. toad.com, havenco.com, thebunker.net, etc.) From ian.richards at yourarticle.net Tue Oct 2 19:14:21 2001 From: ian.richards at yourarticle.net (Ian Richards) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 03:14:21 +0100 Subject: Your Article - The Journalistic Portal for Copy Message-ID: <200110030135.SAA02290@ecotone.toad.com> Hello Since the launch of www.yourarticle.net there has been a considerable uptake of registration from Editors, Journalists, PR Agencies, Corporate Press Offices and Authors throughout North America, Europe, Asia and the Pacific. The web site has now been further enhanced with the latest technology to facilitate ease of use in both downloading and uploading articles and now thanks to sponsorship its completely FREE TO USE - Just register on line. If you haven't already registered take a moment to do so at www.yourarticle.net and benefit from the foremost global portal for journalistic copy. Its completely FREE OF CHARGE, whether you're just looking for content or wish to upload an article or press release for others to view or use. We hope you find Your Article of benefit Ian Richards www.yourarticle.net Please forward this email to a colleague if you think it would be of interest to them If you have received this email in error or wish to have your email address removed from our data base, please send a blank email to remove at yourarticle.net and your email address will be immediately removed from our data base. From jmalcolm at uraeus.com Tue Oct 2 21:47:43 2001 From: jmalcolm at uraeus.com (Joe Malcolm) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 04:47:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: cryptome down ? In-Reply-To: <200110030209.WAA10392@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> References: <381354DB-B79B-11D5-9404-0050E439C473@got.net> <200110030209.WAA10392@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <15290.39023.217055.371976@nodens.uraeus.com> Both ns1.secure.net and ns2.secure.net are returning SERVFAIL for A record queries for cryptome.org. That almost certainly indicates a misconfiguration on those two machines. John, you may want to start harassing your new provider to fix this. Alternatively, it could be that those two servers are not the correct ones for cryptome.org; then getting a SERVFAIL would make some sense. From hakkin at sarin.com Wed Oct 3 05:42:39 2001 From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 05:42:39 -0700 Subject: FBI's database of anonymous letters Message-ID: <3BBB07BF.B32A4252@sarin.com> http://www.fbi.gov/page2/page2.htm Anonymous Letters The Anonymous Letter File (ALF) is an image-oriented database housed in the Questioned Documents Unit of the FBI Laboratory. The repository houses letters from anonymous sources, categorizing entries based on target (recipient of letter), method of preparation, and content. Established in the 1930s, the original ALF was a unique and useful resource for law enforcement. Originally, index card-sized sections of a note's text was from a photograph of the original anonymous letter and entered to the database with the written portion of its envelope. The entry was filed based on its geographic origin (determined by the post mark), nature (hate or demand note) and the method of communication (hand-written, typed, etc.). During a search, when a Laboratory Technician detected similarities between two or more entries, the available content of those notes would be further examined (remember, only an index card-sized portion was initially used). If an association still appeared likely, an Examiner would then conduct a more thorough comparison including an examination of handwriting characteristics. In the early 1980s, the database was upgraded to include video-camera-captured images of letters. The images were stored on disk and the text of the entire letter was retyped for comparison. The new system also enabled special attention to be given to vocabulary, spelling habits, and the topic that a letter addressed. Even with this more advanced system, a Questioned Documents Examiner still studied the hand writing or printing methods of the associated letters looking for a stronger connection. The Laboratory's current ALF system, updated in the 1990s, is even more advanced. Instead of capturing an image of a letter by video camera, images are scanned onto a computer hard drive with back-ups made on compact discs. Comparison is then conducted based on target, method of preparation, and content. The associations that result from ALF searches can prove invaluable in FBI and other law enforcement investigations. Frequent topics of anonymous letters include bomb threats, environmental concerns, abortion politics, and gun control. From jya at pipeline.com Wed Oct 3 05:52:51 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 05:52:51 -0700 Subject: cryptome down ? In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20011003022534.0382d920@idiom.com> References: <15290.39023.217055.371976@nodens.uraeus.com> <200110030209.WAA10392@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> <381354DB-B79B-11D5-9404-0050E439C473@got.net> <200110030209.WAA10392@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <200110030959.FAA08423@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> At the moment it appears that Verio's DNS server failed to register cryptome.org as a valid domain name, whereas jya.com was. We've placed an order to correct that. We had ordered that the two domains be put on two different boxes, geographically distant, to avoid both sites going down if one was knocked out. Hey, there's WMD about called PATRIOT. However, now I learn that Verio uses one DNS server for the two boxes so an attacker needs only to throw one stone to kill both our birds. Grrr. That is what we wanted to avoid. A smart sales rep assured me that this was the way to go, after I had placed two orders for two machines to keep them separate. No need for that he said, let me tell you a better way. No doubt my simple-minded security method would have been breached by some Verio setup based on its own Japanese government spying principles, which is to say I can't escape being terrorized by Ashcroft. What's the connection among Code Red, Nimda and Carnivore? From hakkin at sarin.com Wed Oct 3 06:15:37 2001 From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 06:15:37 -0700 Subject: Man arrested in burning of U.S. flag Message-ID: <3BBB0F79.96C46699@sarin.com> Looks like the fundamentalists won... http://www.indystar.com/data/wire/out/1002ap_l91ia7g109.html Man arrested in burning of U.S. flag Associated Press Last updated 04:40 PM, EST, Tuesday, October 02, 2001 inscmsfonsrctdrccw NOBLESVILLE, Ind. (AP) -- An Indiana man accused of burning an American flag behind his home has been arrested, despite rulings from the U.S. Supreme Court that have said flag-burning is an exercise of free speech. David H. Stout, 49, of Noblesville was charged Monday with flag desecration and resisting law enforcement. He was being held Tuesday at the Hamilton County Jail on a $9,000 bond. Stout was arrested Sunday after police found him lying beside a burning flag in an alley behind his home. Indiana is among 48 states that still have a law against flag desecration on the books, even though the U.S. Supreme Court has twice said flag-burning is a constitutionally protected form of expression. Stout told a neighbor who tried to stop the burning that he could burn his flag if he wanted. The neighbor called police. Stout is accused of throwing a lighted firecracker at a police officer and struggling with police when they took him into custody. Hamilton County Deputy Prosecutor Wendy Petersen filed the charges against Stout. "Our particular statute has not been challenged," Petersen told The Indianapolis Star. "We still have flag desecration on the books, although we may certainly come up against that (constitutional) argument if we continue to prosecute Mr. Stout." Both charges against Stout are misdemeanors, each carrying maximum penalties of one year in prison and a $5,000 fine upon conviction. Petersen agreed that the surge of flag-waving since the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks may have created a new sensitivity to flag desecration. "I can't comment on what the officers were thinking at the time, but probably a report of flag burning would be taken more seriously because of the environment," she said. From hakkin at sarin.com Wed Oct 3 06:30:57 2001 From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 06:30:57 -0700 Subject: USG muscles Arab TV stations to present its view Message-ID: <3BBB1311.67239A97@sarin.com> Note that the offending Arab TV station has a "tendency to run interviews with analysts who argued U.S. foreign policy had brought about the recent attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon." As if there were another reason. Oh sorry, its about "democracy", right. US to Qatar: rein in Al-Jazeera Tuesday, 2 October 2001 20:14 (ET) http://www.vny.com/cf/News/upidetail.cfm?QID=226316 US to Qatar: rein in Al-Jazeera By ELI J. LAKE WASHINGTON, Oct. 2 (UPI) -- The U.S. Embassy in Doha has filed a formal complaint to the Qatari government about the partly state-owned Al-Jazeera satellite network's coverage of the Sept. 11 terrorist strikes on New York and the Pentagon, State Department officials told United Press International Tuesday. Last week, U.S. Ambassador to Qatar, Maureen Quinn, delivered a demarche from Washington regarding Al-Jazeera's broadcasts to Qatari Foreign Minister Sheikh Hamad bin Jassim bin Jabor al-Thani. Quinn asked the Qataris to investigate what the United States says is the station's tendency to run interviews with analysts who argued U.S. foreign policy had brought about the recent attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. The ambassador also expressed concern about the station's repeated airing of an interview with Osama bin Laden, the man the United States says is behind the Sept. 11 attacks, State Department sources said. "They are running this thing four times a day," one State Department official told UPI. "It's like giving him a free forum to justify his beliefs with no filter." "All we are asking is for balanced reporting," another official said Tuesday. "They were airing interviews from the right of center and the far right. There are plenty of other people who speak Arabic who have condemned these attacks." Although Al-Jazeera is partly owned by the Qatari government, its editorial policy is independent, an anomaly in the state-run media climate of the Middle East. It is also the largest Arabic television news channel in the world. According to the station's Washington bureau, its programs are watched by 40 million viewers regularly. From hakkin at sarin.com Wed Oct 3 06:38:05 2001 From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 06:38:05 -0700 Subject: USG pulls 'sensitive' info off net Message-ID: <3BBB14BD.5EDF8705@sarin.com> Must've never heard of caching.. http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-100301safe.story Several federal agencies have removed sensitive documents and reports from their Internet sites following the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, saying they want to keep the information out of the wrong hands. The Department of Transportation has removed its national mapping system for a variety of pipelines. The Department of Health and Human Services yanked a report on the dangers of chemical plant terrorism. The Environmental Protection Agency pulled information on risk-management programs, which inform communities of dangers from 15,000 chemical plants and other industrial facilities nationwide. The widespread editing illustrates how swiftly federal agencies have switched gears following the attacks. Although community activists have lobbied for years for more access to records about nuclear plants and other facilities, agencies now fear that such access may put the public at risk. "Recent events have focused additional security concerns on critical infrastructure systems," said a note posted online by the Office of Pipeline Safety within the Transportation Department. "At this time, [the office] is providing pipeline data to pipeline operators and local, state and federal government officials only." White House officials say they have not issued a blanket order to federal agencies to remove sensitive documents from government Web sites. "We would only hear about these things if we were asked to advise on them," said E. Floyd Kvamme, co-chairman of the President's Committee of Advisors on Science and Technology. However, a spokesman for the Nuclear Regulatory Commission said his agency is working closely with the White House and Department of Defense to assure its Web site does not disclose potentially dangerous information. "We have been reviewing all the information on the Web site with an eye to removing anything that might be helpful to potential terrorists," said NRC spokesman Breck Henderson. For instance, if the site contained the exact geographic coordinates of a nuclear plant, that information would be removed, he said. "If we're a little overzealous in removing things, if there's something on there you really want, give us a Freedom of Information Act request," Henderson said. EPA emergency coordinator Jim Makris said he personally made the decision to remove--at least temporarily--information about risk-management plans submitted by industrial facilities as required by 1990 amendments to the Clean Air Act. The Risk Management Program Web site gave detailed information about 15,000 facilities, including executive summaries, emergency plans, accident histories and chemicals used on site. That data had been on the Internet since late 1999. "We just wanted to get it out of the way," Makris said. "We have made no decision that it will stay off." The information is still available to emergency managers, firefighters and others who need it, he said. Web security experts say the steps taken by the agencies are only "half measures," because the material could have been previously downloaded and saved on users' hard drives. In addition, some of the reports are still available in paper form, said Elias Levy, chief technology officer for SecurityFocus, a security information company in San Mateo. "If someone really wants to get it badly, as they're assuming possibly a terrorist would, they still would be able to get it," Levy said. "You simply have to jump through a lot of hoops. What they're going to end up doing is discouraging the public from obtaining the information, not necessarily discouraging the terrorists from doing so." The Government Printing Office, which prints most government documents and runs a chain of stores, has not been asked to pull any books or reports, deputy general counsel Drew Spalding said. But Transportation Department spokesman Lenny Alcivar said reviews similar to the one being conducted by his agency are taking place throughout the federal government. "This is not meant to restrict information on the part of the public, but more importantly to allow the department and the public the maximum protections against security threats as it can," Alcivar said. "It's important that government, across the board, do all that it can to heighten safety measures while at the same time continue to be as open and responsive to the public as possible." From measl at mfn.org Wed Oct 3 05:08:07 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 07:08:07 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Amusing note from RIAA Message-ID: from http://www.fuckedcompany.com/extras/riaa_email.cfm ----- Original Message ----- From: Hilary Rosen Sent: 9/25/01 Subject: Peer to Peer Services Dear all: It is time to get coordinated and aggressive with the new round of peer to peer services. The amount of music being downloaded is, as you know, reaching unprecedented levels. Since college started last week Morpheus traffic was up to 19 million downloads per day. AND THAT'S JUST MORPHEUS. With the imminent launch of legitimate subscription services we have to get our customers back. I know you want your new businesses to be successful. So do I. Given the overwhelming volume of these alternative services, RIAA can't handle all of the enforcement alone. If they are not controlled more effectively and consumers redirected to legitimate offerings, there won't be new businesses. That's obvious. You are all competitors, but you have common interests in enforcement. Help me help you. I'd like to have a meeting at the RIAA in October as soon as possible. If you agree to participate, I will have my assistant try and work with schedules to get a date that works. I want to keep the meeting small to start (we can expand participation to other companies later). We need to discuss: 1. Spoofing and/or interdiction methods for existing peer to peers - (perhaps by adding promotional messages about the launch of various new systems) 2. A PR campaign 3. We will share the latest legal strategies and RIAA's thinking on options Please plan on attending. I am cautious about sending alternates because we need people who have the ability to make decisions and commit to spending. Best regards, Hilary From measl at mfn.org Wed Oct 3 05:20:56 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 07:20:56 -0500 (CDT) Subject: RIAA Legal Analysis Message-ID: An excellent technical analysis from the RIAA legal dept. Any errors of transcription are likely my own - see the original at http://www.fuckedcompany.com/extras/riaa_memo.cfm for as long as it is there... My favorite part is the last paragraph, where they talk of getting FastTrack to roll over on MusicCity! ------------------------------------------------------------------ PRIVILEGED & CONFIDENTIAL/ATTORNEY WORK PRODUCT We have distributed various legal and technical memoranda that describe the KaZaA network and the potential legal claims against the entities offering this peer-to-peer service. This memorandum seeks to consolidate our current learning into a single document. Accordingly, detailed below are: (a) a brief overview of the relevant entities and the KaZaA network architecture; (b) the facts supporting our legal claims; and (c) a going forward strategy recommendation. I. Overview of Entities and Architecture FastTrack is the Netherlands based software company that developed the software code library used to create the KaZaA peer-to-peer networks. KaZaA was the first application to use the FastTrack code. FastTrack later licensed its code to MusicCity (MusicCity dubbed its system Morpheus) and Grockster. The principals behind FastTrack are Niklas Zennstrom and Janis Friis- - Two young technology developers who are primarily interested in the development of their technology and who have privately funded their operation. MusicCity is being run by Steve Griffin, but with heavy influence by Timberline Venture Partners, the independently managed Northwest Affiliate of Draper Fisher Jurvetson. Timberline owns 65% of MusicCity and is very involved in running the company. The FastTrack network designates (perhaps automatically) certain peers - more powerful computers with high-bandwidth connections - as "supernodes." [because of the systems encrypted communication, we are unable to determine how supernodes are designated]. Several hundred "ordinary" peers connect to any one supernode. A supernode also connects to other supernodes. [because of the systems encrypted communication, we are unable to determine how one supernode knows how to locate other supernodes]. Vidius found that when one of its machines was in supernode status, it was connected to approximately 25 other supernodes. The supernode functions in Napster-like fashion as a local search hub, building an index of the files being shared by each peer connected to it, and processing search requests on behalf of those peers. Supernode queries other supernodes to fulfill a search request, but does not query peers serviced by other supernodes (such a step is unnecessary because the supernodes index all files available among the peers they service). The effect of this architecture is to create a relatively small peer-to-peer network of supernodes, each of which in turn functions as a miniature central server for hundreds of other users. As in Napster and Gnutella, file transfers in the FastTrack system are purely peer-to-peer, and involve neither the central server nor any supernode. Significantly, the FastTrack system encrypts all communications (a) between a peer and the log-in server, (b) between a peer and its supernode, (c) between a supernode and the central servers, and (d) between supernodes [we do not know the nature of the encryption]. However, peer-to-peer communications associated with downloading a file are unencrypted. Presumably, the encryption scheme was created, and is controlled, by the developer of the application - FastTrack. By encrypting the communication, the developer has ensured that the network remains "closed" and accessible only through the KaZaA, Morpheus, or Grokster applications (and any future licensees of the FastTrack technology). KaZaA, MusicCity, and Grokster each operate a central log-in server. The addresses of these servers are hard-coded into the application. At log-in, the peer sends one packet of data to the server, and the server returns two packets. The transmissions presumably involve log-in information from the peer and acknowledgement and confirmation from the server. This function appears to be similar for each of the three entities. In addition, Vidius reports that, at least with the KaZaA application, there is a communication regularly every 12 hours between the log-in (.37) server and the user (whether in peer or supernode status) [we do not know the nature of these communications]. Notably, the log-in server is not essential to a peers use of the network. If the log-in server is not available, the application nevertheless attempts to connect to a supernode using the list contained in the registry (whether it is the preset list for a new user or the most recent update for a repeat user). After log-in, the peer then attempts to connect to a supernode, using a list of supernode addresses stored in the software application. That list is supplied by the application developer, and is identical across KaZaA, Morpheus, and Grokster. The list includes IP addresses at universities and other institutions such as the NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory. The list of supernodes has changed with each new version of the application. In the newest version of the application, the list also includes an IP address at Disney, rnd11-200.rd.wdi.disney.com. The IP addresses listed in the registry do not all function as supernodes at any given time; in fact, most do not. After logging in, a peer works through the list in its registry until its finds a supernode it can connect to. When the peer connects to a supernode for the first time, it receives an updated list of supernodes, which overwrites the preset list in the registry. [we do not know how the suprnode obtains this updated list of supernodes to distribute]. The list of supernodes in the registry is then updated every time the peer connects to a supernode. Thus, a peer always has the most recent possible list of computers that have functioned as supernodes, thereby increasing the odds of a successful connection during the next session. After initially making contact with a supernode, a peer may be shunted around the network as the system attempts to match the peer with the most appropriate supernode. If the registry is somehow corrupted, the application causes the peer to contact another server controlled by KaZaA, supernode.kazaa.com (213.248.112.38). This address is also hard-coded into the application. This means that the KaZaA network maintains a dynamic list of active supernodes [we do not know how this happens]. Upon connecting to that server, the peer will receive a list of known supernodes. All three applications direct the user to the KaZaA (.38) server in this circumstance. KaZaA operates another server in addition to the log-in (.37) server and the (.38) server described above. That is alpha.kazaa.com (213.248.112.34), the address of which, as with the other two, is hard-coded into the application. The (.34) server communicates with supernodes [we do not know the nature of the communication]. During an interval when a Vidius machine was acting as a supernode, there were 12 different attempts by the (.34) server to connect to the supernode. Vidius reports that in a completed transaction the (.34) server sends approximately 1600 bytes of information to the supernode. In addition, as noted above, a supernode makes periodic connection with the KaZaA log-in (.37) server. Vidius hypothesizes that there is a loop between the (.34) server, the (.37) server, and the supernode, which is highly suggestive of some sort of control mechanism - the nature of which must remain unknown until the substance of the communications can be analyzed. Vidius found that "netsplits" or disconnections sometimes occur on the FastTrack network. The system contains some mechanism to resolve such disconections by redirecting peers away from a supernode that has become detached from the network and back to a supernode on the network. Supernodes that are split from the network also eventually reconnect to it, but that reconnection takes 10-15 minutes longer than the reconnection of peers. Vidius believes that this timing differential indicates some control of the reconnection process that is external to the client application. Among the supernodes on the new preset list is one at s1grokster.com, which resides at the same location as the Grokster log-in server. Those computer functions like an ordinary supernode, compiling indexes of available files and processing search requests. Vidius was able to connect to that supernode, and used it to find and download numerous movie and MP3 files. II. Elements of Claims and Proof 1. Contributory Infringement Liability for contributory infringement attaches to "one who, with knowledge of the infringing activity, induces, causes or materially contributes to the infringing conduct of another . . . [L]iability exists if the defendant engages in personal conduct that encourages or assists the infringement." A&M Records, Inc. v. Napster, Inc., 239 F.3d 1004, 1014 (9th Cir. 2001). Knowledge o FastTrack sought to obtain licensing from NVPI and was referred to individual members of the organization. o NVPI wrote to FastTrack and provided notice that its conduct was infringing and that it should obtain the necessary licensing. o RIAA wrote letter to MusicCity when it was an OpenNap system and placed MusicCity on notice of infringing conduct. The same principals contacted by the RIAA are still in place at MusicCity. o In discussion with General Counsel of Copyright.net, KaZaA CEO acknowledged exchange of copyrighted content and stated looking into filters, particularly for child porn. o Press has raised issue of exchange of copyrighted content with company principals. o Widespread presence of copyrighted materials on system. o Message Boards discuss available music, films, and software. MusicCity employees participate in message board discussions and CEO acknowledges MusicCity controls message boards. [should we provide notice by letters and when?] Material Contribution o FastTrack creates and licenses software primarily used for the reproduction and distribution of copyrighted works. o FastTrack created and controls encryption that ensures that the network remains closed and insulated from outside monitoring. o Provides a dynamic list of available supernodes where content can be exchanged (possibly through the .38 server). o Continually updates the list of available supernodes and communicates that information to users (likely through the .34 server). o FastTrack, MusicCity and Grockster maintain log-in servers. o Maintains the s1grokster.com server which acts as a supernode (and by definition maintains a file index). o Resolves netsplits and other system problems (likely through the .34 server). Vicarious Infringement o Vicarious liability arises when the defendant "has the right and ability to supervise the infringing activity and also has a direct financial interest in such activities." Napster, 239 F.3d at 1022. Right and Ability to Supervise o KaZaA, MusicCity, and Grokster all expressly reserve the right to limit the number of files that users make available or access and to terminate users who infringe intellectual property rights or violate other laws. o MusicCity also reserves the right to remove or disable links to allegedly infringing material. o Network limits MP3 files to certain bitrate o MusicCity implemented a filter for child pornography. o Steve Griffin claims to have cooperated with police in limiting the exchange of child pornography. Financial Benefit o Generate advertising revenue based on user base. o Steve Griffin expressed to head of Rock the Vote that he cant stop infringements so he intends to make money from it. o Zennstrom acknowledged to the press that FastTrack is making money. o The services have a rapidly growing user base and according to CNETs download.com is the most popular software on the net. o MusicCity obtaining additional funding from Timberline Venture Partners. III. Recommendation We have solid claims against FastTrack, MusicCity, and Grockster of secondary liability for copyright infringement. The claims are not as strong as those against Napster, but they are also not so remote as to be wishful. Our claims would likely be strengthened by learning more about the designation of supernodes and the content of communications within the system. However, the encryption of this communication precludes further learning absent cooperation from one of these companies or court ordered discovery. In that regard, we recently learned that FastTrack is very interested in exploring alternatives to litigation and its principals are willing to sit down with the record companies to discuss ways of resolving any dispute. FastTrack is willing to sell the company and the technology, or enter into a licensing arrangement. FastTrack is also willing to implement filtering technologies to prevent infringements. We have also learned that MusicCity is looking for the litigation and would like for us to file suit. Thus, we recommend (1) filing claims against FastTrack, MusicCity, and Grockster, (2) immediately thereafter initiating discussions with FastTrack about resolving our claims in a way that will provide us with useful information and testimony against MusicCity, and if possible obtain FastTracks cooperation in shutting down or converting MusicCity and Grokster, and (4) continue forward with litigation against MusicCity, Grokster, and potentially Timberline Venture Partners. From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Wed Oct 3 05:36:49 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 07:36:49 -0500 Subject: The Register - We'll fork the web to keep it Free - Perens Message-ID: <3BBB0661.78ADAEE5@ssz.com> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/21994.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion. Edmund Burke (1784) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Wed Oct 3 05:38:16 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 07:38:16 -0500 Subject: The Register - Bruce Schneier on crypto, the FBI, privacy and more Message-ID: <3BBB06B8.E3EC8913@ssz.com> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/57/21993.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion. Edmund Burke (1784) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From honig at sprynet.com Wed Oct 3 08:00:19 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 08:00:19 -0700 Subject: Photographing Dams In-Reply-To: <3BBA6404.2D3083BF@acmenet.net> References: <1E5AA9C2-B795-11D5-9404-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011003080019.009458c0@pop.sprynet.com> At 09:04 PM 10/2/01 -0400, The Amphibian Anti Defamation League wrote: >(That's a base canard on frogs, by the way. A few years back some >scientist boiled a frog slowly. The frog hopped out of the water as soon >as it got uncomfortably warm.) > Yes but its so useful its worth keeping around ---like the myth(?) that railroad tracks have historical 'back compatability' with roman chariots. From bob at black.org Wed Oct 3 08:36:59 2001 From: bob at black.org (Subcommander Bob) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 08:36:59 -0700 Subject: RIAA Legal Analysis Message-ID: <3BBB309A.7D1836FA@black.org> At 07:20 AM 10/3/01 -0500, measl at mfn.org wrote: > An excellent technical analysis from the RIAA legal dept. Any errors of >transcription are likely my own - see the original at > > http://www.fuckedcompany.com/extras/riaa_memo.cfm > > for as long as it is there... > >My favorite part is the last paragraph, where they talk of getting >FastTrack to roll over on MusicCity! I wonder if they violated any terms in the EULA during their reverse engineering.. Material Contribution o FastTrack [XEROX] creates and licenses software primarily used for the reproduction and distribution of copyrighted works. o FastTrack [ADOBE] created and controls encryption that ensures that the network remains closed and insulated from outside monitoring. o [YAHOO] Provides a dynamic list of available supernodes where content can be exchanged (possibly through the .38 server). o [YAHOO/GOOGLE] Continually updates the list of available supernodes and communicates that information to users (likely through the .34 server). o [YAHOO] FastTrack, MusicCity and Grockster maintain log-in servers. From noreply at cypherpunks.to Tue Oct 2 23:48:08 2001 From: noreply at cypherpunks.to (Anonymous via the Cypherpunks Tonga Remailer) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 08:48:08 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Ron Paul speaks out Message-ID: Interesting speech by Rep. Ron Paul on foreign policy: http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2001/cr092501.htm From citizenQ at ziplip.com Wed Oct 3 08:48:42 2001 From: citizenQ at ziplip.com (citizenQ) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 08:48:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: is there a red-line of PATRIOT bill? Message-ID: Does anyone have a red-line, change-pages version? From fivestar at nutritionguys.com Wed Oct 3 06:09:41 2001 From: fivestar at nutritionguys.com (Shane Mullholand) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 09:09:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: $100.00 Supplement Give Away at NutritionGuys.com Message-ID: <1443345595.1002114623249.JavaMail.RovAdmin@rovweb003> TheNutritionGuys.com Weekly Sale! Shop with us and Unlock the Healthy You! http://www.nutritionguys.com/ ------------------------------------------------------- $100.00 Supplement Give Away Donna Freudenberger from NY, this month's Supplement Given Away Winner Click Here to enter! http://www.nutritionguys.com/give_away.htm ------------------------------------------------------- * Buy Now & Receive 5% off total, good till 10/08/01, enter code 5star08 * Every Day Low Prices * SAVE up to 60% on Top & Cutting Edge Supplements * LIVE online SUPPORT from 8 to 5 * SAME DAY SHIPPING for most items * Weekly Sales! * Purchase 4 or more of selected products at regular price, and receive an additional 5% OFF our already everyday low prices! 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Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 22373 bytes Desc: not available URL: From declan at well.com Wed Oct 3 06:13:18 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 09:13:18 -0400 Subject: biochemwomdterror in dc Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20011003091249.026dfd00@mail.well.com> This Subject: line just doesn't seem quite as catchy any more... SENATE APPROPRIATIONS COMMITTEE Bioterrorism Response Labor, Health and Human Services, Education and Related Agencies Subcommittee hearing on the threat of bioterrorism. Witnesses: Sen. Edward Kennedy, D-Mass., chairman, HELP Committee; Sen. William Frist, R-Tenn.; HHS Secretary Tommy Thompson; Jonathan Tucker, Ph.D., director, Chemical and Biological Weapons Nonproliferation Program, Monterey Institute of International Studies; Stephen Cantrill, associate director, Department of Emergency Medicine, Denver Health Medical Center; Jerome Hauer, managing director, Crisis and Consequences Management, Kroll Associates; Patricia Quinlist, medical director/state epidemiologist, Iowa Department of Health; Rex Archer, director, Kansas City Health Department Location: 216 Hart Senate Office Building. 10:30 a.m. Contact: 202-224-3471 http://www.senate.gov/~appropriations From bill.stewart at pobox.com Wed Oct 3 10:28:46 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 10:28:46 -0700 Subject: USG muscles Arab TV stations to present its view In-Reply-To: <3BBB1311.67239A97@sarin.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011003102433.038392c0@idiom.com> I'm offline, so I haven't read the full article, but Al-Jazeera news service was one of the users of the Infocom Corporation, http://www.infocomcorp.com/ web site in Texas that the Fedz shut down September 5. At 06:30 AM 10/03/2001 -0700, Khoder bin Hakkin wrote: >Note that the offending Arab TV station has a "tendency to run >interviews with analysts who argued U.S. foreign >policy had brought about the recent attacks on the >World Trade Center and the Pentagon." > > >As if there were another reason. Oh sorry, its about "democracy", >right. > > >US to Qatar: rein in Al-Jazeera > Tuesday, 2 October 2001 20:14 (ET) > >http://www.vny.com/cf/News/upidetail.cfm?QID=226316 > > US to Qatar: rein in Al-Jazeera > By ELI J. LAKE ====== At 11:46 PM 09/06/2001 -0500, Jim Choate wrote to the Cypherpunks list > http://slashdot.org/yro/01/09/07/0048215.shtml It's an outrageous story. http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010906/us/business_raided_2.html http://www.middleeastwire.com/newswire/stories/20010905_meno.shtml http://www.txcn.com/texasnews/463428_TXCN_ba_FBIRaid.html http://www.wfaa.com/wfaa/articledisplay/0,1002,31013,00.html - 9/5/01 http://www.wfaa.com/wfaa/articledisplay/0,1002,31120,00.html - 9/6/01 http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010906/wr/mideast_usa_internet_dc_3.html Infocom Corporation, http://www.infocomcorp.com/ is a web hosting and computer sales company based in Richardson, Texas, supporting over 500 clients, particularly Arabic web sites, which were shut down temporarily during the raid (many are back up now). Clients include Al-Jazeera television and the newspaper Al-Sharq, both based in Qatar, and several major Muslim American organizations such as the Council on American Islamic Relations, the Islamic Society of North America, the Islamic Association for Palestine and the Holy Land Foundation. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Wed Oct 3 10:31:23 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 10:31:23 -0700 Subject: and now for something completely different... In-Reply-To: References: <200110030130.f931UHV07830@mailserver1c.hushmail.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011003102938.038322f0@idiom.com> At 10:20 PM 10/02/2001 -0700, Blanc wrote: >keyser-soze quoth: >:I felt a great disturbance in the Force . . . as if millions of >:voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I >:fear something terrible has happened. > >and Darth Vader had been one of the elite Jedi before he turned to the >Dark Side. . . > >Sometimes like imitation of art, is life. This wasn't so much a change in bin Laden's character, but a change in targets. Or, as John Walker's bumper sticker puts it "Evil Empires - One Down, One To Go" From mmotyka at lsil.com Wed Oct 3 10:42:17 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 10:42:17 -0700 Subject: Congress drafts new "anti-terror" bill -- with expiration date Message-ID: <3BBB4DF9.B6CC0D4A@lsil.com> John Young wrote : > > It's a long, long campaign the leaders warn, > just like their predecessors said > > the main enemy is within. > Couldn't agree more. From declan at well.com Wed Oct 3 08:00:04 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 11:00:04 -0400 Subject: USG pulls 'sensitive' info off net In-Reply-To: <3BBB14BD.5EDF8705@sarin.com>; from hakkin@sarin.com on Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 06:38:05AM -0700 References: <3BBB14BD.5EDF8705@sarin.com> Message-ID: <20011003110004.A24438@cluebot.com> Inevitable next step: Enterprising cypherpunk registers censoredfedinfo.org, hunts through google's cache, posts everything there, etc. -Declan On Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 06:38:05AM -0700, Khoder bin Hakkin wrote: > Must've never heard of caching.. > > http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-100301safe.story From tcmay at got.net Wed Oct 3 11:25:34 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 11:25:34 -0700 Subject: IP: Newsweek: FBI had one hijacker before Sept 11th and Justice DeptBumbled (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <08D1C87F-B82C-11D5-9404-0050E439C473@got.net> On Wednesday, October 3, 2001, at 10:08 AM, Eugene Leitl wrote: > > Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 12:59:34 -0400 > From: David Farber > To: ip-sub-1 at majordomo.pobox.com > Subject: IP: Newsweek: FBI had one hijacker before Sept 11th and Justice > Dept Bumbled > > >> Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 09:44:40 -0700 >> From: "Robert J. Berger" >> >> {The FBI and the Justice Dept had tools before Sept 11 and didn't use >> them. They don't need more ways to errode our civil liberties, they >> need >> to be competent} >> Let's look at a section of the article cited: ""....after officials at an Eagan, Minn., flight school tipped them off that the 33-year-old French citizen was acting suspiciously. Moussaoui had sought training only in making turnsnot take-offs and landingsand specifically asked about flying over New York air space, officials said. " But, while Moussaoui himself was placed in detention on minor immigration charges on August 17, agents in Minneapolis were never given approval by Justice Department officials in Washington to open up the hard drive on the suspects computer. ..." So, "acting suspiciously" is now the backdoor to the Fourth Amendment? Or was it the "minor immigration charges"? There are thousands, even tens of thousands, of "minor immigration charges" every day. Papers not in order, visas expired, even failure to produce proof of citizenship. (Hint, yours truly, T C May, cannot easily find any proof of his citizenship...we native born folks don't _need_ no stinking proofs of citizenship. So, if I am "acting suspiciously" and cannot produce my citizenship papers, does my hard drive suddenly become fair game for snoopers?) Beware the logic of using 20/20 hindsight as a justification for expanded search powers. "Had we been allowed to look in his trunk, we would have found the gun he later used to kill those people. We need the power to do our job." "Police admit that they could have detected the illegal drug deals if only they had deployed more video surveillance cameras. We must give them the power to do their jobs!" "Key escrow would have helped." --Tim May From measl at mfn.org Wed Oct 3 11:35:48 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 11:35:48 -0700 Subject: Amusing note from RIAA Message-ID: <20011003113548.B9292@navel.introspect> [Reformatted for legibility. Please take the few moments required to present material in a clear and readable manner. KMSelf] from http://www.fuckedcompany.com/extras/riaa_email.cfm ----- Original Message ----- From: Hilary Rosen Sent: 9/25/01 Subject: Peer to Peer Services Dear all: It is time to get coordinated and aggressive with the new round of peer to peer services. The amount of music being downloaded is, as you know, reaching unprecedented levels. Since college started last week Morpheus traffic was up to 19 million downloads per day. AND THAT'S JUST MORPHEUS. With the imminent launch of legitimate subscription services we have to get our customers back. I know you want your new businesses to be successful. So do I. Given the overwhelming volume of these alternative services, RIAA can't handle all of the enforcement alone. If they are not controlled more effectively and consumers redirected to legitimate offerings, there won't be new businesses. That's obvious. You are all competitors, but you have common interests in enforcement. Help me help you. I'd like to have a meeting at the RIAA in October as soon as possible. If you agree to participate, I will have my assistant try and work with schedules to get a date that works. I want to keep the meeting small to start (we can expand participation to other companies later). We need to discuss: 1. Spoofing and/or interdiction methods for existing peer to peers - (perhaps by adding promotional messages about the launch of various new systems) 2. A PR campaign 3. We will share the latest legal strategies and RIAA's thinking on options Please plan on attending. I am cautious about sending alternates because we need people who have the ability to make decisions and commit to spending. Best regards, Hilary From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Wed Oct 3 03:44:33 2001 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 11:44:33 +0100 Subject: cryptome down ? References: <15290.39023.217055.371976@nodens.uraeus.com> <200110030209.WAA10392@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> <381354DB-B79B-11D5-9404-0050E439C473@got.net> <200110030209.WAA10392@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> <200110030959.FAA08423@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <3BBAEC11.B7361C7C@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> John Young wrote: > > At the moment it appears that Verio's DNS server failed to > register cryptome.org as a valid domain name, whereas > jya.com was. We've placed an order to correct that. FYI it works fine from over here & has for a while. nslookup www.cryptome.org Name: cryptome.org Address: 161.58.201.197 Aliases: www.cryptome.org nslookup jya.org Non-authoritative answer: Name: jya.org Address: 216.248.201.38 > We had ordered that the two domains be put on two different > boxes, geographically distant, to avoid both sites going > down if one was knocked out. Hey, there's WMD about > called PATRIOT. > > However, now I learn that Verio uses one DNS server for > the two boxes so an attacker needs only to throw one stone > to kill both our birds. Grrr. That is what we wanted to avoid. Do you mean that there really is only one nameserver? If so that would be a large-scale dereliction of duty for a respectable ISP. Or that there are two (or more) servers, but both your entries are on the same ones? That would be OK. > A smart sales rep assured me that this was the way to > go, after I had placed two orders for two machines to keep > them separate. No need for that he said, let me tell you > a better way. No doubt my simple-minded security method > would have been breached by some Verio setup based on > its own Japanese government spying principles, which is > to say I can't escape being terrorized by Ashcroft. > > What's the connection among Code Red, Nimda and > Carnivore? Nasty computer programs written by clever but socially deprived authors? Ken Brown From hakkin at sarin.com Wed Oct 3 11:45:20 2001 From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 11:45:20 -0700 Subject: FBI's database of anonymous letters Message-ID: <20011003114520.C9292@navel.introspect> [Reformatted for legibility. Please take the few moments required to present documents in a readable manner. KMSelf] http://www.fbi.gov/page2/page2.htm Anonymous Letters The Anonymous Letter File (ALF) is an image-oriented database housed in the Questioned Documents Unit of the FBI Laboratory. The repository houses letters from anonymous sources, categorizing entries based on target (recipient of letter), method of preparation, and content. Established in the 1930s, the original ALF was a unique and useful resource for law enforcement. Originally, index card-sized sections of a note's text was from a photograph of the original anonymous letter and entered to the database with the written portion of its envelope. The entry was filed based on its geographic origin (determined by the post mark), nature (hate or demand note) and the method of communication (hand-written, typed, etc.). During a search, when a Laboratory Technician detected similarities between two or more entries, the available content of those notes would be further examined (remember, only an index card-sized portion was initially used). If an association still appeared likely, an Examiner would then conduct a more thorough comparison including an examination of handwriting characteristics. In the early 1980s, the database was upgraded to include video-camera-captured images of letters. The images were stored on disk and the text of the entire letter was retyped for comparison. The new system also enabled special attention to be given to vocabulary, spelling habits, and the topic that a letter addressed. Even with this more advanced system, a Questioned Documents Examiner still studied the hand writing or printing methods of the associated letters looking for a stronger connection. The Laboratory's current ALF system, updated in the 1990s, is even more advanced. Instead of capturing an image of a letter by video camera, images are scanned onto a computer hard drive with back-ups made on compact discs. Comparison is then conducted based on target, method of preparation, and content. The associations that result from ALF searches can prove invaluable in FBI and other law enforcement investigations. Frequent topics of anonymous letters include bomb threats, environmental concerns, abortion politics, and gun control. From hakkin at sarin.com Wed Oct 3 11:58:56 2001 From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 11:58:56 -0700 Subject: Man arrested in burning of U.S. flag Message-ID: <20011003115856.E9292@navel.introspect> [Reformatted for legibility. Please take the few moments required to present materials in a readable format. KMSelf] Looks like the fundamentalists won... http://www.indystar.com/data/wire/out/1002ap_l91ia7g109.html Man arrested in burning of U.S. flag Associated Press Last updated 04:40 PM, EST, Tuesday, October 02, 2001 inscmsfonsrctdrccw NOBLESVILLE, Ind. (AP) -- An Indiana man accused of burning an American flag behind his home has been arrested, despite rulings from the U.S. Supreme Court that have said flag-burning is an exercise of free speech. David H. Stout, 49, of Noblesville was charged Monday with flag desecration and resisting law enforcement. He was being held Tuesday at the Hamilton County Jail on a $9,000 bond. Stout was arrested Sunday after police found him lying beside a burning flag in an alley behind his home. Indiana is among 48 states that still have a law against flag desecration on the books, even though the U.S. Supreme Court has twice said flag-burning is a constitutionally protected form of expression. Stout told a neighbor who tried to stop the burning that he could burn his flag if he wanted. The neighbor called police. Stout is accused of throwing a lighted firecracker at a police officer and struggling with police when they took him into custody. Hamilton County Deputy Prosecutor Wendy Petersen filed the charges against Stout. "Our particular statute has not been challenged," Petersen told The Indianapolis Star. "We still have flag desecration on the books, although we may certainly come up against that (constitutional) argument if we continue to prosecute Mr. Stout." Both charges against Stout are misdemeanors, each carrying maximum penalties of one year in prison and a $5,000 fine upon conviction. Petersen agreed that the surge of flag-waving since the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks may have created a new sensitivity to flag desecration. "I can't comment on what the officers were thinking at the time, but probably a report of flag burning would be taken more seriously because of the environment," she said. From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Wed Oct 3 09:05:37 2001 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 12:05:37 -0400 Subject: USG pulls 'sensitive' info off net References: <3BBB14BD.5EDF8705@sarin.com> Message-ID: <3BBB3751.1000402@dragonsweb.org> Khoder bin Hakkin wrote: > Must've never heard of caching.. > > http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-100301safe.story > > Several federal agencies have removed sensitive documents and reports > from their Internet sites following the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, > saying they want to keep the information out of the wrong hands. > > The Department of Transportation has removed its national mapping system > for a variety of pipelines. The Department of Health and Human Services > yanked a report on the dangers of chemical plant terrorism. The > Environmental Protection Agency pulled information on risk-management > programs, which inform communities of dangers from 15,000 chemical > plants and other industrial facilities nationwide. > > The widespread editing illustrates how swiftly federal agencies have > switched gears following the attacks. Although community activists have > lobbied for years for more access to records about nuclear plants and > other facilities, agencies now fear that such access may put the public > at risk. > > "Recent events have focused additional security concerns on critical > infrastructure systems," said a note posted online by the Office of > Pipeline Safety within the Transportation Department. > > "At this time, [the office] is providing pipeline data to pipeline > operators and local, state and federal government officials only." > > White House officials say they have not issued a blanket order to > federal agencies to remove sensitive documents from government Web > sites. > > "We would only hear about these things if we were asked to advise on > them," said E. Floyd Kvamme, co-chairman of the President's Committee of > Advisors on Science and Technology. > > However, a spokesman for the Nuclear Regulatory Commission said his > agency is working closely with the White House and Department of Defense > to assure its Web site does not disclose potentially dangerous > information. > > "We have been reviewing all the information on the Web site with an eye > to removing anything that might be helpful to potential terrorists," > said NRC spokesman Breck Henderson. For instance, if the site contained > the exact geographic coordinates of a nuclear plant, that information > would be removed, he said. > > "If we're a little overzealous in removing things, if there's something > on there you really want, give us a Freedom of Information Act request," > Henderson said. > > EPA emergency coordinator Jim Makris said he personally made the > decision to remove--at least temporarily--information about > risk-management plans submitted by industrial facilities as required by > 1990 amendments to the Clean Air Act. > > The Risk Management Program Web site gave detailed information about > 15,000 facilities, including executive summaries, emergency plans, > accident histories and chemicals used on site. That data had been on the > Internet since late 1999. > > "We just wanted to get it out of the way," Makris said. "We have made no > decision that it will stay off." The information is still available to > emergency managers, firefighters and others who need it, he said. > > Web security experts say the steps taken by the agencies are only "half > measures," because the material could have been previously downloaded > and saved on users' hard drives. In addition, some of the reports are > still available in paper form, said Elias Levy, chief technology officer > for SecurityFocus, a security information company in San Mateo. > > "If someone really wants to get it badly, as they're assuming possibly a > terrorist would, they still would be able to get it," Levy said. "You > simply have to jump through a lot of hoops. What they're going to end up > doing is discouraging the public from obtaining the information, not > necessarily discouraging the terrorists from doing so." > > The Government Printing Office, which prints most government documents > and runs a chain of stores, has not been asked to pull any books or > reports, deputy general counsel Drew Spalding said. > > But Transportation Department spokesman Lenny Alcivar said reviews > similar to the one being conducted by his agency are taking place > throughout the federal government. > > "This is not meant to restrict information on the part of the public, > but more importantly to allow the department and the public the maximum > protections against security threats as it can," Alcivar said. > > "It's important that government, across the board, do all that it can to > heighten safety measures while at the same time continue to be as open > and responsive to the public as possible." > > I was looking up the way cool VASIMR plasma rocket, which would make 90-104 day transfers to Mars possible, but spaceflight.nasa.gov is not reachable. Must be a DNS problem. This degree of seeming idiotic paranoia is not healthy. It doesn't inspire confidence, either. The paternalistic (or is it maternalistic?) policy of keeping nobody but the American public in the dark doesn't help, it makes matters worse. And it makes people less apt to pay attention to voices of reason. Or know where to watch for suspicious activity. So? If that's the whole point, fuck that. If not, well, get a fucking grip, America. jbdigriz From kmself at ix.netcom.com Wed Oct 3 12:29:09 2001 From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 12:29:09 -0700 Subject: USG pulls 'sensitive' info off net In-Reply-To: <20011003110004.A24438@cluebot.com>; from declan@well.com on Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 11:00:04AM -0400 References: <3BBB14BD.5EDF8705@sarin.com> <20011003110004.A24438@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20011003122909.F9292@navel.introspect> on Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 11:00:04AM -0400, Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com) wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 06:38:05AM -0700, Khoder bin Hakkin wrote: > > Must've never heard of caching.. > > > > http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-100301safe.story > Inevitable next step: Enterprising cypherpunk registers > censoredfedinfo.org, hunts through google's cache, posts everything > there, etc. Note that there are a relatively small number of Googles on the Net. This is a point that was brought forth pointedly at John Wharton's ee380 seminar at Stanford last spring, during Rhonda Hauben's seminar "Usenet and the Usenet Archives The Challenges of Building a Collaborative Technical Community" http://www.stanford.edu/class/ee380/Abstracts/010523.html Specifically, the Usenet community became used to the Deja News archives, to the extent that many independent archives of specific newsgroups or collections of groups were deactivated, relying instead on Deja. While comprehensive archives are useful, *single* comprehensive archives present a point of failure and control. The Net would be advised to develop multiple Google alternatives. And I say this as quite the fan of Google.... Peace. -- Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/ Land of the free Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature] From honig at sprynet.com Wed Oct 3 13:30:41 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 13:30:41 -0700 Subject: Mad Elk disease reference up (Re: Emergency Diseases) In-Reply-To: <200109271445.KAA07184@barry.mail.mindspring.net> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011003133041.00956b80@pop.sprynet.com> At 10:38 AM 9/27/01 -0700, John Young wrote: >The Department of Agriculture today issued an emergency >announcement about the spread of "chronic wasting disease" >(CWD) among cattle and deer in the American West: > > http://cryptome.org/doa092701.txt > >The disease can be fatal to humans. I responded to this with notes about CWD from memory. I've since found the article I was thinking of, and put it here for your enjoyment. >From _Science_ 1 Jun 01. http://geocities.com/elkprion/ From jmalcolm at uraeus.com Wed Oct 3 06:50:57 2001 From: jmalcolm at uraeus.com (jmalcolm at uraeus.com) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 13:50:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: cryptome down ? In-Reply-To: <200110030959.FAA08423@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> References: <15290.39023.217055.371976@nodens.uraeus.com> <200110030209.WAA10392@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> <381354DB-B79B-11D5-9404-0050E439C473@got.net> <200110030959.FAA08423@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <15291.6081.727494.751538@nodens.uraeus.com> John Young writes: >We had ordered that the two domains be put on two different >boxes, geographically distant, to avoid both sites going >down if one was knocked out. Hey, there's WMD about >called PATRIOT. The DNS has redundancy designed into it; there is no real advantage to having a disjoint set of servers for the two domains. You may as well have the widest possible set of servers for both. >However, now I learn that Verio uses one DNS server for >the two boxes so an attacker needs only to throw one stone >to kill both our birds. Grrr. That is what we wanted to avoid. That doesn't seem right; traceroutes to both servers indicate that they are likely topologically distant. One appears to be around Washington, DC, and the other somewhere on the west coast. >A smart sales rep assured me that this was the way to >go, after I had placed two orders for two machines to keep >them separate. No need for that he said, let me tell you >a better way. No doubt my simple-minded security method >would have been breached by some Verio setup based on >its own Japanese government spying principles, which is >to say I can't escape being terrorized by Ashcroft. Indeed so. From honig at sprynet.com Wed Oct 3 13:55:53 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 13:55:53 -0700 Subject: cats good for allergy -followup references Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011003135553.0095c3a0@pop.sprynet.com> In a thread "Re: When the FBI Guys Come Knocking..." I claimed (from memory) that cats can decrease allergies. I was unable to find the _Science_ ref but I found a few refs to the original research reported in The Lancet 357:752-56 (2001). Reproduced below. I don't make this stuff up. http://www.niaid.nih.gov/newsroom/focuson/asthma01/research.htm#cats Contrary to popular belief, high levels of cat allergen in the home can sometimes decrease the risk of a child developing asthma, says grantee Thomas A. Platts-Mills, M.D., Ph.D., of the University of Virginia. Apparently, the presence of a cat can alter the immune system in a manner similar to allergy shots, he reports. For other allergens that trigger asthma, such as the dust mite and cockroach, the higher the exposure level, the more likely it is that a child will produce "allergic" antibodies, called immunoglobulin-E or Ig-E antibodies, against them. This high exposure increases the child's risk of becoming allergic and developing asthma. But with cats, high exposure actually can confer protection -- at least in some children, Dr. Platts-Mills says. He and colleagues measured the levels of allergic antibodies to cat allergen in 226 children, aged 12 to 14 years, and tested the children for asthma. They also measured the amount of cat allergen in the children's homes and discovered that low-to-moderate amounts of cat allergen seemed to trigger allergy, but high amounts -- greater than 20 micrograms per gram of house dust -- reduced both IgE antibodies and the likelihood of asthma. "This result alters the advice we give patients," says Dr. Platts-Mills. "I would not recommend that all parents get rid of their cat because they are concerned their child might develop asthma. High exposure to cat allergen appears to be protective for some children and a risk factor for others. If the child is wheezing and has a positive skin test to cat allergen, then you should get rid of your cat." The high levels of cat allergen prompted the children's immune systems to make mostly a particular subtype of immunoglobulin G (IgG), called IgG4 antibody, rather than IgE, Dr. Platts-Mills explains. Allergy shots are believed to produce a similar effect. "This research sheds more light on the relationship between allergen exposure and asthma," he says. "When we further understand this process, it might lead to new treatments for asthma." Reference: T Platts-Mills et al. Sensitisation, asthma, and a modified Th2 response in children exposed to cat allergen: a populations-based cross-sectional study. The Lancet 357:752-56 (2001). Sensitisation, asthma, and a modified Th2 response in children exposed to cat allergen: a population-based cross-sectional study. Platts-Mills T, Vaughan J, Squillace S, Woodfolk J, Sporik R. University of Virginia Asthma and Allergic Diseases Center, University of Virginia Department of Medicine, Charlottesville, USA. tap2z at virginia.edu BACKGROUND: Although asthma is strongly associated with immediate hypersensitivity to indoor allergens, several studies have suggested that a cat in the house can decrease the risk of asthma. We investigated the immune response to cat and mite allergens, and asthma among children with a wide range of allergen exposure. METHODS: We did a population-based cross-sectional study of children (aged 12-14 years), some of whom had symptoms of asthma and bronchial hyper-reactivity. Antibodies to mite (Der f 1) and cat (Fel d 1) allergens measured by isotype (IgG and IgG4) specific radioimmunoprecipitation assays were compared with sensitisation and allergen concentrations in house dust. FINDINGS: 226 children were recruited, 47 of whom had symptoms of asthma and bronchial hyper-reactivity. Increasing exposure to mite was associated with increased prevalence of sensitisation and IgG antibody to Der f 1. By contrast, the highest exposure to cat was associated with decreased sensitisation, but a higher prevalence of IgG antibody to Fel d 1. Thus, among children with high exposure, the odds of sensitisation to mite rather than cat was 4.0 (99% CI 1.49-10.00). Furthermore, 31 of 76 children with 23 microg Fel d 1 at home, who were not sensitised to cat allergen had >125 units of IgG antibody to Fel d 1. Antibodies to Fel d 1 of the IgG4 isotype were strongly correlated with IgG antibody in both allergic and non-allergic children (r=0.84 and r=0.66, respectively). Sensitisation to mite or cat allergens was the strongest independent risk factor for asthma (p<0.001). INTERPRETATION: Exposure to cat allergen can produce an IgG and IgG4 antibody response without sensitisation or risk of asthma. This modified T-helper-2 cell response should be regarded as a form of tolerance and may be the correct objective of immunotherapy. The results may also explain the observation that animals in the house can decrease the risk of asthma. PMID: 11253969 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] From kmself at ix.netcom.com Wed Oct 3 14:35:25 2001 From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 14:35:25 -0700 Subject: CDR Anonymizer (fwd) In-Reply-To: <200110032118.QAA20350@einstein.ssz.com>; from cpunks_anon@ssz.com on Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 04:18:56PM -0500 References: <200110032118.QAA20350@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <20011003143524.T9292@navel.introspect> on Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 04:18:56PM -0500, CDR Anonymizer (cpunks_anon at ssz.com) wrote: > I received the following ... > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 09:54:32 -0700 > Subject: CDR Anonymizer > > Hi Jim. > > Could you hack your CDR Anonymizer script to pass the To: and Cc: lines? > Every time someone uses it, I get a bounce from a couple lne CDR subscribers > whos MTAs are configured to reject mail with no To: or Cc: line. > > Leaving the To: line in won't change the anonymity any, we all > know that it's going to the cypherpunks list. > > Thanks. > > -- Cut Here -- > > In responce I have modified the ~/cpunks_anon/.procmailrc. Let's see if > this doesn't fix the bounces. I'd like to try to keep the header to a > minimum (ie no Cc: if we can help it). I also put To: to the anonymizer. I > already put a Reply To: that points at the cpunks list. I'm getting mail w/o a "To" line of: To: cpunks_anon at einstein.ssz.com I'm looking for an effective procmail filtering rule. As I'm subscribed to LNE, I'm currently filtering on: :0: * ^Sender: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com cypherpunks Peace. -- Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/ Land of the free Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature] From news at market-street.com Wed Oct 3 11:44:44 2001 From: news at market-street.com (Market-Street) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 14:44:44 -0400 Subject: Discover new mailing lists from Market-Street! Message-ID: <4150-220011033184444974@market-street.com> HTML message attached (or) go to the following link: www.market-street.com/newsletters/market-street_enews4.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 17940 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Wed Oct 3 14:48:41 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 14:48:41 -0700 Subject: WTC Crime Scene In-Reply-To: <200110032112.RAA12063@tisch.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <692311E8-B848-11D5-9404-0050E439C473@got.net> On Wednesday, October 3, 2001, at 05:05 PM, John Young wrote: > Now the help I need is how to recover the erased > images from the Compact Flash memory chip. > Norton's unerase detects no remnants of the JPG > images. I would really appreciate pointers on how to > reclaim the images: ... ... > If anybody can tell me how to get the images restored > I'll be immensely grateful -- technique or a program > to buy. And I'll put the images on the Web as soon as > reborn. They are high res images, 1MB or so each, > and should be gruesomely spectacular, if only they > can be unerased. Crime scene indeed. > Products like this one may help: http://www.datarescue.com/photorescue/spec.htm And there are some tips I found with Google (searching on just "unerase flash memory"--other combos may give even better hits): http://www.imaging-resource.com/IRNEWS/archive/v02/20000922.htm#beg With this tip: Beginners Flash: Unerasing Lost Images It happens. "My name is [unintelligible]. I erased my media card before I copied the images." Hi, [unintelligible]. We all make mistakes. Before you panic and do something (else) foolish, work on a good excuse. Here's a starter kit: 1. "I thought you copied them." Where "you" could be anything from an African violet to a goldfish to a cat to a spouse or a long lost relative already framed on the mantel. 2. "I pressed the wrong button." Nobody has to know no buttons are involved. 3. "It said 'Copy.'" Well, desperate measures call for desperate acts. OK, now panic. Get it out of your system. If this is your first time (oh, there will be others), start by deliberately making the same mistake again -- but to a second card or floppy. You can try all sorts of techniques on the second one until you find something that works. The first thing to realize is that -- whether you are using a Macintosh or a Windows PC -- your storage device is (no doubt) formatted for MS-DOS. Macintoshes have no trouble reading and writing MS-DOS media (and, just for the record, PCs can handle Macintosh media with third-party software). But neither of them is any good at running disk utilities on the other's media. Your Norton knows your native file system, period. So recovery of a DOS-formatted card is a Windows task. Unfortunately, Windows may see your card only as a network drive (where, as with floppies, deletions are not safely buffered in the Recycle Bin). And it's rude to reorganize the directories of network drives, so your usual unerase utility may not go there. But there's hope. No guarantees, but hope. Although there's precious little hope if you've already stored newer images on it. Or just reformatted the card. But you didn't do that. So to unerase from your DOS-formatted card you'll need access to a Windows computer with a card reader and software that will recognize your card and unerase your files. There are a number of unerase utilities that may help. We know of one 64-MB CompactFlash card saved by the shareware program Recover98 (http://www.lc-tech.com/r98exp.html) even after a few new shots were written to it by a Nikon 950. We've had no success ourselves with MS-DOS Undelete, Norton Quick Unerase (which has trouble with files as large as image files) and Unerase or shareware like Directory Snoop (http://www.briggsoft.com/dsnoop.htm) -- either because they wouldn't touch a network drive or couldn't find the first cluster of deleted files. The freeware program Emergency Undelete for Windows NT (http://www.zdnet.co.uk/software/free/utilities/file/sw35.html) sounds promising, but we haven't personally been saved by it. If you have a success story with any unerase utility, let us know about it at editor at imaging-resource.com and we'll pass the information along. These utilities know a little secret: the data on the card is not really erased. It isn't lost until it is written over the next time information is saved to its formerly protected sectors. Instead, an erase operation simply frees the file's disk space, overwriting the file name's first character in the card's directory with the Greek character sigma. It's faster and just as effective. If not secure. To actually erase the file, you have to write over every byte. And more than once, if you believe certain U.S. government specs. (That's what the Norton Wipe command is all about.) If you're lucky, your unerase utility will just ask you for the first letter of each erased file name it found. And a few keystrokes later you'll have your file right back where you hoped it still was. We made the stunning revelation above that everyone (except goldfish) makes mistakes. It's our intelligence misfiring, really. So take heart! But if you're really intelligent, swing the odds in your favor by getting into foolproof habits like deleting images only in your camera -- using your computer solely to copy and relying on your camera to subsequently delete. While looking at your images on screen. From the CD you just burned. From ericm at lne.com Wed Oct 3 14:48:49 2001 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 14:48:49 -0700 Subject: CDR Anonymizer (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20011003143524.T9292@navel.introspect>; from kmself@ix.netcom.com on Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 02:35:25PM -0700 References: <200110032118.QAA20350@einstein.ssz.com> <20011003143524.T9292@navel.introspect> Message-ID: <20011003144849.A24798@slack.lne.com> On Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 02:35:25PM -0700, Karsten M. Self wrote: > I'm getting mail w/o a "To" line of: > > To: cpunks_anon at einstein.ssz.com > > I'm looking for an effective procmail filtering rule. As I'm subscribed > to LNE, I'm currently filtering on: > > :0: > * ^Sender: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com > cypherpunks I use: * ^From.*owner-cypherpunks at .* which works on all the nodes I've been subscribed to over the last couple years. Eric From schear at lvcm.com Wed Oct 3 14:49:35 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 14:49:35 -0700 Subject: USG pulls 'sensitive' info off net In-Reply-To: <20011003122909.F9292@navel.introspect> References: <20011003110004.A24438@cluebot.com> <3BBB14BD.5EDF8705@sarin.com> <20011003110004.A24438@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011003144553.04ac98b0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 12:29 PM 10/3/2001 -0700, Karsten M. Self wrote: >on Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 11:00:04AM -0400, Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com) >wrote: > > > > On Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 06:38:05AM -0700, Khoder bin Hakkin wrote: > > > Must've never heard of caching.. > > > > > > http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-100301safe.story > > > Inevitable next step: Enterprising cypherpunk registers > > censoredfedinfo.org, hunts through google's cache, posts everything > > there, etc. > >Note that there are a relatively small number of Googles on the Net. The trouble with Google and most other spiders is that they cannot access the DBs behind the sites. Various industry estimates place the amount of data not accessible to crawlers at up to 500x the html content. What's needed are open access data mining sites using more sophisticated crawlers like http://telegraph.cs.berkeley.edu/ steve From wolf at priori.net Wed Oct 3 15:04:27 2001 From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 15:04:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CDR Anonymizer In-Reply-To: <20011003143524.T9292@navel.introspect> Message-ID: Try: :0 * ^Return-Path.*owner-cypherpunks at lne.com cypherpunks On Wed, 3 Oct 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote: > I'm getting mail w/o a "To" line of: > > To: cpunks_anon at einstein.ssz.com > > I'm looking for an effective procmail filtering rule. As I'm subscribed > to LNE, I'm currently filtering on: > > :0: > * ^Sender: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com > cypherpunks > > Peace. > > -- > Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ > What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave > http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/ Land of the free > Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org > Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html > > [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature] From schear at lvcm.com Wed Oct 3 15:25:33 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 15:25:33 -0700 Subject: Nifty secret bank system In-Reply-To: <200110031639.LAA18014@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011003152232.04ad6c88@pop3.lvcm.com> At 06:30 PM 10/3/2001 +0100, CDR Anonymizer wrote: >http://archives.nytimes.com/2001/10/03/international/03LAUN.html > >lo-tech, trust-based, stable and fully functional since antiquity. I like >it :-) You'll notice the cost of money transfers using this private system are well below international bank wires. If governments want to reduce/eliminate this "illicit" competition they should fully underwrite the cost of international wires below a certain threshold (say $10,000). steve From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Wed Oct 3 06:29:17 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 15:29:17 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: [ISN] CRYPTO-GRAM SPECIAL ISSUE, September 30, 2001 (fwd) Message-ID: -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 02:20:55 -0500 (CDT) From: InfoSec News To: isn at attrition.org Subject: Re: [ISN] CRYPTO-GRAM SPECIAL ISSUE, September 30, 2001 Forwarded from: Aj Effin Reznor Pardon the rant. Since Bruce went down his yellow brick road to the Land Where Full Disclosure Is Bad, I have been wondering about the usefulness of a crypto guy functioning as the head of a security company. "InfoSec News was known to say....." > Watching the television on September 11, my primary reaction was > amazement. Thanks for reminding us that you're human... > supports and collapse the World Trade Center. It seems probable > that they placed advantageous trades on the world's stock markets > just before the attack. No one planned for an attack like this. > We like to think that human beings don't make plans like this. >From what I've gathered since the 11th, this *was* planned for, in a sense. The scenario was deemed unlikely enough that any preparation for such an occurance was considered pointless. > It was also a new type of attack. One of the most difficult > things about a (This line is important in a minute). > Airline Security Regulations > > Computer security experts have a lot of expertise that can be > applied to the real world. First and foremost, we have > well-developed senses of what security looks like. We can tell > the difference between real security and snake oil. And the new > airport security rules, put in place after September 11, look and > smell a whole lot like snake oil. "We" computer security experts. (A) Bruce does crypto, not security. When he made the cutover, and rapidly rose to the rank of "expert" is unknown to me. (B) It's always been said that no one who calls themself an expert in anything, is. And chances are the ones who don't, are. > All the warning signs are there: new and unproven security > measures, no real threat analysis, unsubstantiated security > claims. The ban on cutting Claims like "full disclosure is bad." I'd like to see what studies this ideology is based on. > Parked cars now must be 300 feet from airport gates. Why? What > security problem does this solve? Why doesn't the same problem > imply that passenger drop-off and pick-up should also be that far > away? Curbside check-in has been eliminated. What's the threat > that this security measure has solved? Why, if the new threat is > hijacking, are we suddenly worried about bombs? Pudding, including proof. Since this is a new style of hijacking, then clearly this is all we must concentrate on? I didn't see people taking down firewalls just because Code Red & Nimda passed right through and hit web servers. No, new threats need to be responded to without neglecting every previous threat. Bruce seems to think that just because these guys were so clever, that they'd never resort back to a simple car bomb parked next to an airport terminal. No, they'd never go low-tech. Think: Boxcutters. > The rule limiting concourse access to ticketed passengers is > another one that confuses me. What exactly is the threat here? > Hijackers have to be on the planes they're trying to hijack to > carry out their attack, so they have to have tickets. And anyone > can call Priceline.com and "name their own price" for concourse > access. Unless they were simply planting a bomb in the luggage compartment. You know, like an airport-employed *baggage*handler* would be able to do. Bruce is making far too many assumptions which, instead of bordering on the fanatical are instead bordering on the blind. > Increased inspections -- of luggage, airplanes, airports -- seem > like a good idea, although it's far from perfect. The biggest > problem here is Inspection of what, a hijacker? Until a hijacking occurs, any terrorist is merely a potential hijacker. What are these inspections for that Bruce supports? Bombs? The same ones he thinks are a non-issue now? > Positive bag matching -- ensuring that a piece of luggage does not > get loaded on the plane unless its owner boards the plane -- is > actually a good security measure, but assumes that bombers have > self-preservation as a guiding force. It is completely useless > against suicide bombers. Now bombs *are* an issue again! This waffling is feeling rather Clinton-esque! > The real point of photo ID requirements is to prevent people from > reselling tickets. Nonrefundable tickets used to be regularly > advertised in the newspaper classifieds. Ads would read something > like "Round trip, Boston This much I agree with. > Biometrics in Airports > > You have to admit, it sounds like a good idea. Put cameras > throughout airports and other public congregation areas, and have > automatic face-recognition software continuously scan the crowd > for suspected terrorists. When the software finds one, it alerts > the authorities, who swoop down and arrest the bastards. Voila, > we're safe once again. Speaking of snake oil... face recognition! Is the security expert not noticing the oil being passed? > security badge that includes a picture that a guard looks at. > Implemented properly, biometrics can be an effective part of an > access control system. Excluding cost-prohibitive systems, many can be easily tricked. Once someone hacks your "code" (print, retinal scan, etc), how do you *change* it? 'Splain, Lucy! > Terrorists and Steganography > > Guess what? Al-Qaeda may use steganography. According to > nameless "U.S. officials and experts" and "U.S. and foreign > officials," terrorist groups are "hiding maps and photographs of > terrorist targets and posting instructions for terrorist > activities on sports chat rooms, pornographic bulletin boards and > other Web sites." No Proof. > It doesn't surprise me that terrorists are using this trick. The > very No Proof. > To make it work in practice, the terrorists would need to set up > some sort of code. Just as Hanssen knew to collect his package > when he saw the chalk mark, a virtual terrorist will need to know > to look for his message. (He can't be expected to search every > picture.) There are lots of ways to communicate a signal: > timestamp on the message, an uncommon word in the subject line, > etc. Use your imagination here; the possibilities are limitless. For once we see the broad imagination and not the narrow focus we saw above. Perhaps Bruce is now in his zone again, instead of thinking within an area where he doesn't seem to be quite as comfortable. How Bruce presents himself as a "security expert" is really beyond me... > Protecting Privacy and Liberty > > to provide security on the Internet. This works; my company > catches attackers -- both outside hackers and insiders -- all the > time. We do it by monitoring the audit logs of network products: > firewalls, IDSs, routers, Ah yes, log auditing. A low-level AI with a human overlord. Nothing like retroactive "response". Valor. Kimble. Schneier?! -aj. - ISN is currently hosted by Attrition.org To unsubscribe email majordomo at attrition.org with 'unsubscribe isn' in the BODY of the mail. From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Wed Oct 3 06:31:28 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 15:31:28 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: [ISN] Hijackers' e-mails sifted for clues Computer messages weresentuncoded (fwd) Message-ID: -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 02:18:55 -0500 (CDT) From: InfoSec News To: isn at attrition.org Subject: [ISN] Hijackers' e-mails sifted for clues Computer messages were sentuncoded Forwarded from: Patrice Auffret http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20011001/3496196s.htm Hijackers' e-mails sifted for clues Computer messages were sent uncoded By Kevin Johnson USA TODAY WASHINGTON -- Federal authorities believe that some of the 19 hijackers involved in the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks were using computers in all-night Kinko's stores and cybercafes in South Florida to coordinate their activities in the weeks before the assaults. Investigators have amassed what they described as a ''substantial'' amount of e-mail traffic among the hijackers. Some of the messages were exchanged in a mix of English and Arabic. None of the communications, authorities said Sunday, involved the use of encryption or other code to disguise the contents of the messages. At least two laptop computers seized in the United States were being examined closely by investigators. They hope to determine whether the machines contained information that could help identify associates of the hijackers in this country or provide leads about future terrorist attacks, a senior law enforcement official said. The disclosure appeared to be further evidence that the hijackers felt free to conduct their business in the open without much fear they would be discovered. Late last month, law enforcement officials said they believed that the hijackers or their associates did extensive scouting missions on various airline routes before settling on flights originating in Boston, Newark, N.J., and Washington. Investigators said they believe that the hijackers selected the four flights they commandeered Sept. 11 because passenger loads generally were light and the fuel tanks on the jets, all on transcontinental routes, were full. Official interest in the hijackers' methods of communication comes as the largest criminal investigation in U.S. history continues to widen. The attacks left nearly 6,000 people dead or missing. - ISN is currently hosted by Attrition.org To unsubscribe email majordomo at attrition.org with 'unsubscribe isn' in the BODY of the mail. From abuse at yahoogroups.com Wed Oct 3 15:44:29 2001 From: abuse at yahoogroups.com (Groups) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 15:44:29 -0700 Subject: Abuse - Unauthorized Subscription (KMM50578543V35371L0KM) Message-ID: <200110032244.f93Mi8t38642@mrout3.yahoo.com> Hello, We apologize for the unsolicited subscription, which we understand was not expected. We allow users to create email distribution and discussion groups for free -- and a user seems to have ignored our policies and added you to his or her list without your permission. Per your request, you have been removed from the group and you should no longer receive messages associated with it. We will investigate the situation and take the appropriate action. We are very concerned about preventing the abuse in Yahoo! Groups, and we will continue to evaluate any groups that violate Yahoo! Groups Terms of Service. Regards, Yahoo! Groups Support http://groups.yahoo.com Original Message Follows: ------------------------- What Group are you reporting? Anti-Immigration Subject: Unauthorized Subscription Type your feedback here: "Cypherpunks" is a mailing list on an unrelated topic which has been subscribed to the Anti-Immigration group. This means that everyone on the Cypherpunks list has to receive this vile irrelevant racist drivel! Surely it is against your policy to subcribe entire mailing lists to other mailing lists. Please delete this unwanted subscription immediately! Thank you. While Viewing: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/groups-38.html Yahoo ID: unknown Browser: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0b; Windows 98) REMOTE_ADDR: 66.92.32.138 REMOTE_HOST: unknown Date Originated: Tuesday October 2, 2001 - 14:39:10 ------- From 180eriksson at telia.com Wed Oct 3 06:49:40 2001 From: 180eriksson at telia.com (esse) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 15:49:40 +0200 Subject: USG muscles Arab TV stations to present its view References: <3BBB1311.67239A97@sarin.com> Message-ID: <002301c14c12$4128cdc0$32e043d5@telia.com> "All we are asking is for balanced reporting," U.S. quote of the day? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Khoder bin Hakkin" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 3:30 PM Subject: USG muscles Arab TV stations to present its view > Note that the offending Arab TV station has a "tendency to run > interviews with analysts who argued U.S. foreign > policy had brought about the recent attacks on the > World Trade Center and the Pentagon." > > > As if there were another reason. Oh sorry, its about "democracy", > right. > > > US to Qatar: rein in Al-Jazeera > Tuesday, 2 October 2001 20:14 (ET) > > http://www.vny.com/cf/News/upidetail.cfm?QID=226316 > > US to Qatar: rein in Al-Jazeera > By ELI J. LAKE > > WASHINGTON, Oct. 2 (UPI) -- The U.S. Embassy in Doha has filed a > formal > complaint to the Qatari government about the partly state-owned > Al-Jazeera > satellite network's coverage of the Sept. 11 terrorist strikes on New > York > and the Pentagon, State Department officials told United Press > International > Tuesday. > > Last week, U.S. Ambassador to Qatar, Maureen Quinn, delivered a > demarche > from Washington regarding Al-Jazeera's broadcasts to Qatari Foreign > Minister > Sheikh Hamad bin Jassim bin Jabor al-Thani. > > Quinn asked the Qataris to investigate what the United States says is > the > station's tendency to run interviews with analysts who argued U.S. > foreign > policy had brought about the recent attacks on the World Trade Center > and > the Pentagon. The ambassador also expressed concern about the station's > > repeated airing of an interview with Osama bin Laden, the man the > United > States says is behind the Sept. 11 attacks, State Department sources > said. > > "They are running this thing four times a day," one State Department > official told UPI. "It's like giving him a free forum to justify his > beliefs > with no filter." > > "All we are asking is for balanced reporting," another official said > Tuesday. "They were airing interviews from the right of center and the > far > right. There are plenty of other people who speak Arabic who have > condemned > these attacks." > > Although Al-Jazeera is partly owned by the Qatari government, its > editorial policy is independent, an anomaly in the state-run media > climate > of the Middle East. It is also the largest Arabic television news > channel in > the world. According to the station's Washington bureau, its programs > are > watched by 40 million viewers regularly. > From kmself at ix.netcom.com Wed Oct 3 16:00:15 2001 From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 16:00:15 -0700 Subject: Nifty secret bank system In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011003152232.04ad6c88@pop3.lvcm.com>; from schear@lvcm.com on Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 03:25:33PM -0700 References: <200110031639.LAA18014@einstein.ssz.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20011003152232.04ad6c88@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <20011003160014.B15345@navel.introspect> on Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 03:25:33PM -0700, Steve Schear (schear at lvcm.com) wrote: > At 06:30 PM 10/3/2001 +0100, CDR Anonymizer wrote: > >http://archives.nytimes.com/2001/10/03/international/03LAUN.html > > > >lo-tech, trust-based, stable and fully functional since antiquity. I like > >it :-) > > You'll notice the cost of money transfers using this private system are > well below international bank wires. If governments want to > reduce/eliminate this "illicit" competition they should fully underwrite > the cost of international wires below a certain threshold (say $10,000). For some, cost of transfer is a secondary consideration to secrecy, and possibly sufficient to keep a significant underground network active. Peace. -- Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/ Land of the free Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature] From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Wed Oct 3 15:03:01 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 17:03:01 -0500 (CDT) Subject: CDR Anonymizer (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20011003143524.T9292@navel.introspect> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Oct 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote: > I'm getting mail w/o a "To" line of: > > To: cpunks_anon at einstein.ssz.com I think that is remailer software dependent. I can say that the SSZ CDR doesn't over-write the To: field on resend. lne apparently does. Might talk to the list op and see if they have a strong feel one way or t'other. -- ____________________________________________________________________ The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion. Edmund Burke (1784) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From jya at pipeline.com Wed Oct 3 17:05:49 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 17:05:49 -0700 Subject: WTC Crime Scene Message-ID: <200110032112.RAA12063@tisch.mail.mindspring.net> Today I managed to walk around the stupefying WTC disaster site for half an hour, doing what a serious professional would be doing: taking dozens of careful photographs of the ruins. Then an NYC cop asked to see my authorization to be photographing a crime scene. I said nobody told me not to. He said come with me, and told a captain who asked how the fuck did you get in here. I said I just walked in, nobody stopped me. Captain checked my ID and my tale about safety-surveying the neighborhood as a volunteer, and said escort this guy off the scene. Then I was handed over to the State Police who had me repeat my reason for being there, took my fancy digital camera, looked at the photos and bygod erased all of them. Then I was handed over to the National Guard who is in charge of perimeter security, and I again had to explain that I just walked in, that there were no barriers and no guards the way I came. While that was happening two dozen victim families were escorted to the site to stare at the devastation, carrying flowers, weeping, holding each other, some stumbling, looking as if walking into hell -- which it truely is. Shit. I got my name put in a database and a warning to not come back or face arrest. I said thank you and did not even for a second think to say fuck off for which you may shit on me. Now the help I need is how to recover the erased images from the Compact Flash memory chip. Norton's unerase detects no remnants of the JPG images. I would really appreciate pointers on how to reclaim the images: they show godawful stuff I've not seen published anywhere else. No human remains as far as I can tell just dumbfounding acres of what used to be and the giant machines and tiny workers trying to untangle it. If anybody can tell me how to get the images restored I'll be immensely grateful -- technique or a program to buy. And I'll put the images on the Web as soon as reborn. They are high res images, 1MB or so each, and should be gruesomely spectacular, if only they can be unerased. Crime scene indeed. What I admired was the grandstand set up by the Port Authority for distinguished visitors to survey the spectacle and be televised saying how awful it is and how much money is need to rebuild New York and what must be done to prevent this ever happening again. That grandstand looked like the crime scene to me. From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Wed Oct 3 15:13:08 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 17:13:08 -0500 (CDT) Subject: The problem with governments to date... Message-ID: They all seek to obtain 'absolute authority'; the problem is there isn't any such thing... -- ____________________________________________________________________ The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion. Edmund Burke (1784) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Wed Oct 3 15:16:48 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 17:16:48 -0500 Subject: CNN.com - FTC chair to drop call for new Internet privacy laws - October 3, 2001 Message-ID: <3BBB8E50.2DD85880@ssz.com> http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/industry/10/03/ftc.industry.ap/index.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion. Edmund Burke (1784) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From mmotyka at lsil.com Wed Oct 3 17:38:07 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 17:38:07 -0700 Subject: Compact FLASH Message-ID: <3BBBAF6F.CA988237@lsil.com> The CF is just an ATA drive. You should be able to get a utility that will do a raw sector by sector read to a file on a hard drive. Having done that you could probably piece together the image files. You could share the data file with multiple parties and see who gets it first. Here's hoping the filesystem SW in your digital camera marked the flash blocks as slated for erasure rather than actually erasing them. How large a CF card is it? What is your host system? Mike From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Wed Oct 3 15:40:42 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 17:40:42 -0500 Subject: DRUDGE REPORT FLASH 2001 - Powell: 'Seismic' change in US - Russian ties Message-ID: <3BBB93EA.87E69EE5@ssz.com> http://www.drudgereport.com/flash.htm -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion. Edmund Burke (1784) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Wed Oct 3 15:42:55 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 17:42:55 -0500 Subject: Rocky Mountain News: America Under Attack - Missing tanker truck spurs search, alert to Terrorism Task Force Message-ID: <3BBB946F.63BE6DB7@ssz.com> http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/america_under_attack/article/0,1299,DRMN_664_838033,00.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion. Edmund Burke (1784) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From bob at black.org Wed Oct 3 18:09:08 2001 From: bob at black.org (Subcommander Bob) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 18:09:08 -0700 Subject: WTC Crimes Against the Constitutionn Scene Message-ID: <3BBBB6B4.4B8542C9@black.org> At 05:05 PM 10/3/01 -0700, John Young wrote: >Then I was handed over to the State Police who had >me repeat my reason for being there, took my fancy >digital camera, looked at the photos and bygod erased >all of them. See Tomlinson on Psion memory sleight-of-hand... Not that you were ready for it. Fuck. You innocent. You need a decent spycam, or a real-time sat uplink, an ultralight to cruise the urban canyans and buzz Ms liberty. A guardian angel Predator hovering over your shoulder. Best leave the war_photog to Declan and similar Youngsters, and other einsturzende neubauten paparazzi. As if other more serious hobbyist documenters don't have Long lenses and Sensitive film. They must have picked up your antisocial electromagnetic emanations cominng through your copper-mesh burkha; a lamb wearing an aluminum-foil Stetson, gripping the 60 Mton phallus as it GPS's its way home at 32 ft/sec^2, freezing on the way down because its been shorn. As if you're a fucking teenage arsonist-obsessive, coming back to enjoy the scene. Yeah, an architect ---he'd know the scoop on buildings and physics, put him on our short list. Shit, he's probably read the Fountainhead. Oooh, he's on *that* mailinglist too, put him on our extradoubleplus short list. Oh shit, he's got a document scanner and he knows how to use it. Tap this bugger. Seize his ass. Ets. First they pissed on themselves (d'oh; which wayz the wind blowin'?), now they shit on themselves, brownshirts for sure. Gotta thank the Muslim Falwells for accelerating things, Homeland Fascism on Internet Time. We were getting bored with Condit anyway. From bob at black.org Wed Oct 3 18:25:51 2001 From: bob at black.org (Subcommander Bob) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 18:25:51 -0700 Subject: USG pulls 'sensitive' info off net Message-ID: <3BBBBA9E.19A64B47@acm.org> 02:49 PM 10/3/01 -0700, Steve Schear wrote: >> > On Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 06:38:05AM -0700, Khoder bin Hakkin wrote: >> > > Must've never heard of caching.. >The trouble with Google and most other spiders is that they cannot access >the DBs behind the sites. Various industry estimates place the amount of >data not accessible to crawlers at up to 500x the html content. What's >needed are open access data mining sites using more sophisticated crawlers >like http://telegraph.cs.berkeley.edu/ Or for readers to take "Google" as representative of wget-crazed ephemeral rogue libertarian librarians. From anonymous at anonymizer.com Wed Oct 3 18:31:00 2001 From: anonymous at anonymizer.com (Anonymous) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 18:31 -0700 Subject: weird overflights, Bay Area Coastal Range mtns Message-ID: <200110040131.SAA24956@sirius.infonex.com> South of HWY 17 - circling twice altitude 1000 ft, then it left for Pajaro Valley, presumably Watsonville. Prop plane, green markings but no insignia. (Tim, anything weird going on out there besides you?) Hills above HWY 280. Terrain following, in and out of fog. It's a strange time to look for pot growers. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Wed Oct 3 18:35:05 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 18:35:05 -0700 Subject: Security Measures In-Reply-To: <010c01c1490b$ae58af00$0100a8c0@mshome.net> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011003183441.034da850@idiom.com> At 12:25 PM 09/29/2001 -0500, Neil Johnson wrote: >The Corps of Engineers has restricted access to most lock and dam >installations on the Mississippi (closed observation facilities and public >parks around the sites). Their concern is that terrorists may attempt to >destory them, causing the dissruption of barge traffic on the river. >They estimate over 60 billion dollars in goods are transported by barge on >the river every year. > >However, they plan no restrictions on river traffic. >- Are rain dances still legal? Or only in the dry season? From xeni at xeni.net Wed Oct 3 18:49:47 2001 From: xeni at xeni.net (Xeni Jardin) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 18:49:47 -0700 Subject: Jihad-training web site yanked; firm trained would-be fighters in USA. Message-ID: The UK Times is reporting that the web site for a UK-based firm offering "jihad training programs" has been shut down, unclear by whom. Through the site, the company promoted its "Ultimate Jihad Challenge" workshops which included the how-to's of "bone breaking," "foreign firearm instruction," -- and gun-training sessions in the United States at a live firing range. The course outline ends on this note: "SUCESSFUL STUDENTS WILL RECEIVE THE SAKINA INSRUCTORS CERTIFICATE AND OATH OF LOYALTY TO THE UMMAH OF ALLAH DIVINE RELIGION OF SUBMISSION." I found a Google cache of Sakina's site, and have included the URL below with a text cut-and-paste from the cache. --XJ ====================================================== http://www.thetimes.co.uk October 4, 2001 "Holy Wars" website is shut down A British website which offered young Muslims the chance to train for holy wars abroad has been removed from the internet. The website of London-based firm Sakina Security Ltd is no longer available, Internet service provider Freeserve confirmed. The site had offered the "ultimate Jihad challenge" in which clients were taken to a live firing range in the United States for weapons training where they shoot up to 3,000 rounds each. It also offered training in hand-to-hand combat, including "the art of bone breaking" and how to "improvise explosive devices" in live operations. The website, which had more than 15,000 visitors, also asked people to donate money to a fund for the "liberation" of the Al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem. They were asked to give money to a London-based account of the Woolwich bank. It also carried a link to a "Jihad in Chechnya" site which showed the bodies of dead Russian soldiers. It was not clear who instigated the shutdown of the website, but police have been aware of Sakina's activities for at least 18 months. Hendon MP Andrew Dismore asked a question about the firm in Parliament in May last year and was told by then Home Secretary Jack Straw that police were already aware of the company and were looking into it. America : last updated, October 04, 2001 00:05 ====================================================== [Text copied from Google's cache of the now-defunct Sakina Security web site --XJ ] WOULD YOU LIKE TO MAKE MONEY FROM THE SECURITY INDUSTRY? IN THE REAL WORLD OF SECURITY THE MONEY IS MADE FROM HIGH RISKS JOBS. SAKINA SECURITY SERVICES PRIDES ITSELF ON HIGH RISKS JOBS IN THE FORMER SOVIET UNION AND IN THE CIVIL WAR ARENAS OF THE WORLD. TO BE ABLE TO SURVIVE IN THIS FIELD YOU NEED THE FOLLOWING SKILLS: INTERNATIONAL LAW/COUNTRY OF ORIGIN LAW INTERNATIONAL USE OF FORCE POLICY HIGH RISK OPERATIONS HIGH STRESS FIREARMS/CQB SKILLS INTERNATIONAL DRESS & PROTOCOL DRIVING SKILLS FOREIGN FIREARMS FAMILIARISATION BASIC LANGUAGE PHRASES LOCAL TERRORIST/CRIMINAL UPDATE THESE ARE SOME OF THE SKILLS REQUIRED BY A SAKINA OPERATIVE ON A HIGH PROFILE MISSION SAKINA ALSO OFFER COURSES IN SURVIVAL MARTIAL ARTS AND OTHER SECURITY RELATED MATTERS. Pre Instructors Course SALAM & MAY ALLAH HELP YOU IN THIS PRE INSTRUCTORS COURSE THE SAKINA PRE INSTUCTORS COURSE IS THE FIRST ISLAMIC MARTIAL ARTS COURSE IN THE U.K. THE REQUIREMENTS ARE THE FOLLOWING: - 90% MENTAL ENDURACE 600 SQUATS 100 PUSH UPS 100 SIT UPS PHASE ONE: DEMO FORWARD ROLL, BACKWARD ROLL, SIDEWAY ROLL, CARTWHEEL AND EXPLAIN HOW THERE ARE USED IN REALITY. PHASE TWO: DEMO WATER, EARTH, WIND & FIRE ATTITUDES IN REALITY SITUATIONS PHASE THREE: DEMO 5 BASIC TAKE DOWNS 5 BASIC THROWS 5 BASIC WRIST LOCKS 2 KNOCKOUT PUNCHES 2 DEADLY KICKS. PHASE FOUR: DEMO 5 CHOKES 5 LEG LOCKS 5 ARM BARS 5 ESCAPES. PHASE FIVE: 100 PUSH-UPS & 3 ROUNDS WITH THE INSTRUCTOR PHASE SIX: DEMOS THE SAKINA ART OF BONE BREAKING YOU MUST NOW MAKE THE INSTRUCTOR SUBMIT TO PASS THE COURSE SUCESSFUL STUDENTS WILL RECEIVE THE SAKINA INSRUCTORS CERTIFICATE AND OATH OF LOYALTY TO THE UMMAH OF ALLAH DIVINE RELIGION OF SUBMISSION (end) --------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the strangelove list located at http://www.strangelove.cc To unsubscribe from the list, e-mail: talk-unsubscribe at strangelove.cc To get help from a warm body, e-mail: talk-owner at strangelove.cc From sfurlong at acmenet.net Wed Oct 3 15:55:21 2001 From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 18:55:21 -0400 Subject: USG pulls 'sensitive' info off net References: <20011003110004.A24438@cluebot.com> <3BBB14BD.5EDF8705@sarin.com> <20011003110004.A24438@cluebot.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20011003144553.04ac98b0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <3BBB9759.B007D026@acmenet.net> Steve Schear wrote: > ... What's > needed are open access data mining sites using more sophisticated crawlers > like http://telegraph.cs.berkeley.edu/ What, you mean more sites that require Javascript to be turned on, and show a blank page if it isn't? Thanks, got plenty of them already. SRF <--- who is even more annoyed at sites that require IE extensions -- Steve Furlong Computer Condottiere Have GNU, Will Travel 617-670-3793 "Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato From bpayne37 at home.com Wed Oct 3 17:57:50 2001 From: bpayne37 at home.com (bill payne) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 18:57:50 -0600 Subject: aa Message-ID: <3BBBB40E.6A655207@home.com> guys one of the message sent from one of the jets, according to moralesl, was aa http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.2000.09.18-2000.09.24/msg00029.html Let's hope for peaceful settlement http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/8327/ and there are more fun things to do http://members.home.net/bpayne37/softwaredownloadtest.html best bill From bill.stewart at pobox.com Wed Oct 3 19:03:11 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 19:03:11 -0700 Subject: FC: Responses to ICANN preserving Net-stability against terrorists In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010929183138.021fe050@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011003184303.034d25d0@idiom.com> At 06:36 PM 09/29/2001 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: >[Karl is on the ICANN board of directors. --DBM] Yes, but he's got the "Hey, how did somebody from the *public* get one of the public slots on the board of directors?!?!?" seat on the board, and the cabal is trying to prevent anybody like that from actually happening again :-) >From: Karl Auerbach >To: Declan McCullagh >cc: >Subject: Re: FC: Richard Forno on ICANN and Net-stability against terrorists >... >I've spent a lot of time dealing with capability based operating systems >(a technology that I believe deserves to be revived), mathematical >expressions of security policy, formal proof of correctness of operating >systems, real-live inplementations of secure operating systems and >networks, cryptographic engines, key management systems, etc. >Most of the document are buried deep in paper archives at the old National >Bureau of Standards. As for the software and networks: Who know where >they might be these many years later. The current Capability-based operating system project is EROS, the Extremely Reliable Operating System, www.eros-os.org (I think it's .org. You can't just look for www.eros.com for obvious reasons:-) I know it was active a year ago; not sure what they've done lately, but the last I heard, their ringleader was at a university professorship, so there may be grad students developing it some more, and they were looking at making it microkernel-based. One of the other well-known capability-based systems was KeyKOS; some of the main folks from that are at Agorics.com. >And let's put things in perspective. What we're going to be doing is >looking at many non-technical protections, like making sure that there are >sufficient backups and procedures so that DNS infrastructure can be >repaired. There are three or four main kinds of attacks/failures for the domain system - - Failures/Attacks on the servers themselves - Attacks on the data transmission - various technical attacks such as spoofing DNS requests, adding extra records to responses, etc. DNSSEC and similar kinds of authentication are important for preventing these. - Attacks on the data, e.g. forged change requests - that's another very strong reason for authentication technology, whether it's PGP or dumb passwords. - Social engineering attacks on the system, such as UDRP abuse by trademark holders trying to reverse-cybersquat, as well as cybersquatting abuses, and delaying the extra TLDs. James Love suggests: >Can we spell, mission creep? Depends on what you think their original mission was :-) If your initial goal is World Domination, mission creep's no problem... I've been especially concerned with their grab of the IPv6 numberspace and the price-fixing that's prevented almost anyone from buying it. > From today's WSJ > >http://interactive.wsj.com/articles/SB1001643073146154880.htm >Some of these computers, such as the primary "A" root server in northern >Virginia, operate within secure buildings, but others are far less >protected. When congressional auditors recently checked the security >surrounding them, "one of them was sitting in a professor's office at the >University of Maryland," says Keith Rhodes of the General Accounting Office. >"I would worry." There was a while that MAE-East was in a parking garage in Maryland, with not much more than chain-link fence for protection. From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Wed Oct 3 10:08:37 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 19:08:37 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: IP: Newsweek: FBI had one hijacker before Sept 11th and Justice DeptBumbled (fwd) Message-ID: -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 12:59:34 -0400 From: David Farber Reply-To: farber at cis.upenn.edu To: ip-sub-1 at majordomo.pobox.com Subject: IP: Newsweek: FBI had one hijacker before Sept 11th and Justice Dept Bumbled >Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 09:44:40 -0700 >From: "Robert J. Berger" > >{The FBI and the Justice Dept had tools before Sept 11 and didn't use >them. They don't need more ways to errode our civil liberties, they need >to be competent} > >** Access Denied ** >FBI agents in Minneapolis weren't given approval to search terrorist >suspect's hard drive by the Justice Department. If 'two and two' were put >together could hijackings have been stopped, asks one investigator. A Web >exclusive by Michael Isikoff and Daniel Klaidman > >http://www.msnbc.com/modules/exports/ct_email.asp?/news/636610.asp > >Oct. 1 — Top Justice Department and FBI officials turned down a request >by Minneapolis FBI agents early last month for a special >counterintelligence surveillance warrant on a suspected Islamic terrorist >who officials now believe may have been part of the Sept. 11 plot to >attack the World Trade Center and Pentagon, NEWSWEEK has learned. > >-- For archives see: http://www.interesting-people.org/ From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Wed Oct 3 20:08:24 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 20:08:24 -0700 Subject: The Day the Airways Stood Still Message-ID: <200110040308.f9438Pj26127@mailserver1c.hushmail.com> BARNHARDT (studying her for a moment) Tell me, Hilda -- does all this frighten you -- does it make you feel insecure? HILDA Yes, sir -- it certainly does! BARNHARDT (nodding with a bland little smile) That's good, Hilda. I’m glad. From jya at pipeline.com Wed Oct 3 20:17:56 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 20:17:56 -0700 Subject: WTC Recovered In-Reply-To: <20011003223603.14B595E1B@server3.safepages.com> References: <200110032112.RAA12063@tisch.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <200110040024.UAA08349@blount.mail.mindspring.net> All 75 WTC photos today were recovered, using a $30.00 program called Photorescue from DataRescue, a Belgian company, grabbed online. Many thanks for quick pointers to a slew of such programs. My panicky state and lack of Googling was due to learning the photos had been deleted by Smokey only after getting home. I had thought my obsequy had kept the camera and memory chip from being confiscated. While being mesmerized by a hypnotic Lady Smokey reading me Miranda, crimson nails caressing her massive Beretta, luscious full lips mouthing me rights beyond ... Gent Smokey was deleting my reason for obeying every command in the vicinity to escape losing the data. Then at home I opened an empty directory, and the rest you know. Thanks, thanks. Now to compress these 1 MB buggers into transferrable size. They look fantastic in all senses, but not due to any talent, it's all the camera and its amazing memory chip. Listen, if you don't have a digital camera with a maximum size Compact Flash, you don't know what it is to get a perfect picture every snap. With a 192MB chip you can take a 150 or so high res images, and are they beautiful, even to an idiot. The camera is a Nikon CoolPix 880, and there are later, better models from Nikon and others. The 192MB chip can also allow you to swallow all your secret files, or use it to run your most secret programs and store invaluable files ready to flee the crime scene blasted naked with it up your pucker, which is not what occurred to me. From anonymous at anonymizer.com Wed Oct 3 21:00:00 2001 From: anonymous at anonymizer.com (Anonymous) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 21:00 -0700 Subject: bio outbreak on Paki/Afghan border. (t/f?) Message-ID: <200110040400.VAA29842@sirius.infonex.com> http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/10/04/wref04.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/10/04/ixhome.html Confirm? Deny? Ebola-style killer virus sweeps Afghan border Tim Butcher in Quetta (<<< you have to be skeptical!) (Filed: 04/10/2001) THE largest outbreak in history of a highly contagious disease that causes patients to bleed to death from every orifice was confirmed yesterday Pakistan's frontier with Afghanistan. . . . From localhost at toad.com Wed Oct 3 14:10:39 2001 From: localhost at toad.com () Date: 3 Oct 2001 21:10:39 -0000 Subject: Message-ID: <1002143439.85895.qmail@ech> ��������! ���� ��� ���������� ���������� ��������, �� �� �� ������ ��� ������, �� �� ����� ���������� ��� ��������������� ������ ��������. �� ����������: ���� ������ �� 6.000.000 ������������� ����������� - 50$ ���� ������ �� 45.000 ���������� ����������� � ����������� - 30$ ���� ������ �� 27.000.000 ������������ ����������� - 50$ ���� �� ��������������, ������ �� new_db at xakep.ru _______________________________________________________________________ Powered by List Builder To unsubscribe follow the link: http://lb.bcentral.com/ex/manage/subscriberprefs?customerid=15891&subid=AC1B1DD36D4A8FFC&msgnum=4 From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Wed Oct 3 19:15:52 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 21:15:52 -0500 Subject: Slashdot | Copyright Claimed on Telephone Tones Message-ID: <3BBBC658.A877F008@ssz.com> http://slashdot.org/articles/01/10/04/0142222.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion. Edmund Burke (1784) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From vwatvwat at yahoo.com Wed Oct 3 18:28:50 2001 From: vwatvwat at yahoo.com (V Bassett) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 21:28:50 -0400 Subject: "The Letter" As seen on national TV! Message-ID: <1447744-22001104412850906@yahoo.com> This will make BIG money for you...FAST!! Several months ago, I made a conscious decision not to delete what I figured was just another "junk" e-mail. That decision has changed my life. Here you have the very same opportunity in front of you. If you take just five minutes to read through the following program you won't regret it. See for yourself! If you do this - all involved WILL PROFIT!! Dear Friends & Future Millionaires: AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV: Make over half a million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your home for an investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars expense ONE TIME!. THANKS TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET ! ================================================== BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!! Before you say ''Bull'', please read the following. This is the letter you have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the Internet, a national weekly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of this program described below, to see if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved once and for all that there are ''absolutely NO Laws prohibiting the participation in the program and if people can follow the simple instructions, they are bound to make some mega bucks with only $25 out of pocket cost''. DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER! This is what one had to say: ''Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I was approached many times before but each time I passed on it. I am so glad finally joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received total $610,470.00 in 21 weeks, with money still coming in." Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey. ===== PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE ====== If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months easily and comfortably, please read the following...THEN READ IT AGAIN and AGAIN!!! FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTIONS BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS: =====Order all 5 reports shown on the list below ===== For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems. When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 reports. You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X5=$25.00. Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the 5 reports from these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it on your desk in case something happens to your computer. IMPORTANT - DO NOTalter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than what is instructed below in steps '' 1 through 6 '' or you will lose out on a majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you will also see how it does not work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter it, it will NOT work!!! People have tried to put their friends/relatives names on all five thinking they could get all the money. But it does not work this way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and then nothing happened. So DO NOT try to change anything other than what is instructed. Because if you do, it will not work for you. Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 1.... After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune. 2.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5. 3.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4. 4.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3. 5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2. 6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! ========================================================== **** Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it on your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose any data. To assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing information which includes how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much more. There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going: METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY ========================================================== Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we will assume You and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let's also assume that the mailing receives only a 0.2% response (the response could be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2%. Also many people will send out hundreds of thousands of e-mails instead of only 5,000 each). Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for report # 1. Those 10 people responded by sending out 5,000 e-mail each for a total of 50,000. Out of those 50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders. That's 100 people responded and ordered Report # 2. Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report # 3. Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million e-mails sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for Report # 4. Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000,000 (50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for Report # 5. THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH=$500,000.00 (half a million). Your total income in this example is: 1..... $50 + 2..... $500 + 3..... $5,000 + 4.... $50,000 + 5..... $500,000 ........ Grand Total=$555,550.00! NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE OUT THE WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSE AND NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY! ========================================================= REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO. Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone or half or even one 4th of those people mailed 100,000e-mails each or more? There are over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide and counting. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! ========================================================= METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET ======================================================= Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there are hundreds of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the Internet will easily get a larger response. We strongly suggest you start with Method # 1 and add METHOD # 2 as you go along. For every $5 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it. Always provide same day service on all orders. This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they receive the report. =========== AVAILABLE REPORTS ==================== ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are ordering, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address. PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW : =========================================== REPORT #1: "How to Send Out 0ne Million e-mails for Free" Order Report # 1 from: V. B. 15568 Timberhill Dr Flint, TX 75762 USA _______________________________________________ REPORT # 2: "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Net" Order Report #2 from: JSH220 P.O. Box 1024 Lawrenceville, GA 30046-1024 USA __________________________________________________________ REPORT # 3: "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the Net" Order Report # 3 from: M.A. P.O. Box 8332 Tahoe City, CA. 96145 USA __________________________________________________________ REPORT # 4: "Secret to Multilevel Marketing on the Net" Order Report # 4 from : N. H. Merrill 147 Crescent St. Shrewsbury,MA 01545-2860 USA ____________________________________________________________ REPORT # 5: "How to Become a Millionaire Utilizing MLM & the Net" Order Report # 5 from: C. Henry 16211 N. 21st Street Phoenix, Arizona 85022 USA ___________________________________________________________ $$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$ Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: === If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2 weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do. === After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you should receive 100 orders or more for REPORT # 2. If you did not, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. === Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a Different report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate from this business!!! ====================================================== FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money in the next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put your name and address in Report #1 and moved others to #2 through # 5 as instructed above. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be on every one of them. Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So, my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW! ============ MORE TESTIMONIALS ================ "My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving ''junk mail.'' I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and a few days later she jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old ''I told you so" on her when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received a total of $147,200.00 ........... all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jody in her "hobby." Mitchell Wolf, Chicago, Illinois ====================================================== "Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back." "I was surprised when I found my medium sized post office box crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that it does not matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return and so big." Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada ======================================================= ''I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone else.........11 months passed then it luckily came again...... I did not delete this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the money came within 22 weeks." Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y. ======================================================= ''It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with little cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully and within 10 days the money started to come in. My first month I made $20,560.00 and by the end of third month my total cash count was $362,840.00. Life is beautiful, Thanx to the internet." Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand ======================================================= ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON 'YOUR' ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM! ======================================================= If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C ======================================================== Don't be skeptical - this works. Thanks, V. B. V Bassett Check this out! I'm doing it. Might as well! Get paid cash every time you receive email! Sign up FREE at: http://www.MintMail.com/?m=806789 From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Wed Oct 3 21:30:03 2001 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 21:30:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Stupid Congress Tricks: anti-terror bills target cash In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20011003234040.00a42060@mail.well.com> from "Declan McCullagh" at Oct 03, 2001 11:41:42 PM Message-ID: <200110040430.f944U3p10981@artifact.psychedelic.net> Declan writes: > From one of the anti-terror bills said to be a sure bet to pass both > chambers. Typos mine. --Declan ... > Whoever... knowingly conceals more than $10,000 in currency or other > monetary instruments on his or her person... shall be guilty of a currency > smuggling offense (and) shall be imprisoned for not more than 5 years. So I can now be arrested for carrying a concealed assault wallet? Does "monetary instruments" include travelers checks while you're on vacation? Oh, when will the silliness end. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From info at giganetstore.com Wed Oct 3 13:49:16 2001 From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 21:49:16 +0100 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?B?SW5mb3JtYefjbyBFc3BlY2lhbA==?= Message-ID: <005be17492003a1WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com> Playstation 2 só a... 59.990$00 299,23 € ----- Capacidades: 200 Vezes mais potente que a Playstation 1 Leitura de DVD (filmes), CDs e DVD ROM Compatível com 99% dos Jogos da Playstation 1 e com os seus periféricos Mais de 450 jogos em desenvolvimento Possibilidade futura de ligação à internet (BroadBand)... Portas multimédia: I-Link, UBS e PCMCIA Especificações: CPU: Processador "Emotion Engine" de 128 bits a 295.912 MHZ e 32 MBs de memória Som : 48 canais de som e 2MB de memória ----- Não perca esta oportunidade. Aproveite já !! Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site http:\\www.giganetstore.com , ir à edição do seu registo e retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das nossas promoções e novos serviços. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 7902 bytes Desc: not available URL: From attila at hun.org Wed Oct 3 14:55:07 2001 From: attila at hun.org (attila!) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 21:55:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [RANT] US/Brits call off first round of attacks Message-ID: <20011003215507.441C13465A@hun.org> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 8627 bytes Desc: not available URL: From measl at mfn.org Wed Oct 3 19:59:41 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 21:59:41 -0500 (CDT) Subject: and now for something completely different... In-Reply-To: <200110030130.f931UHV07830@mailserver1c.hushmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Oct 2001 keyser-soze at hushmail.com wrote: > I felt a great disturbance in the Force . . . as if millions of voices > suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear > something terrible has happened. That was George Bush getting elected. You need to switch to a channel that doesn't show re-runs... -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From measl at mfn.org Wed Oct 3 20:10:16 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 22:10:16 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Photographing Dams In-Reply-To: <3BBA6006.FFED56C3@lsil.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Oct 2001 mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: > Aren't there cases of persons having had their film confiscated for > photographing federal installations from public rights of way or is that > the stuff of urban/net legends? Is does sound hokey to me. Believe it. Happened to me in 1989 at Wright Pat AFB in Ohio. Although, to be perfectly candid, I am not *certain* that I was on a public street at that point - I was however, outside the guard gate. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Wed Oct 3 22:34:33 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 22:34:33 -0700 Subject: Kamikazes (was: Re: Stupid Congress Tricks: anti-terror bills target cash) Message-ID: <200110040534.f945YXJ43498@mailserver1c.hushmail.com> > Whoever... knowingly conceals more than $10,000 in currency or other > monetary instruments on his or her person... shall be guilty of a currency > smuggling offense (and) shall be imprisoned for not more than 5 years. > Upon a showing by the property owner by a preponderence of the evidence > that the currency or monetary instruments involved in the offense giving > rise to the forfeiture were derived from a legitimate source and were > intended for a lawful purpose, the court shall reduce the forfeiture to the > maximum amount that is not grossly disproportional to the gravity of the > offense... Well folks its time to recruit some financial patriots. All you need is a wad of cash, some C4 taped to your hide and wired to a voice activated detonator. Klaatu barada nikto! Matching e-gold donations anyone? From declan at well.com Wed Oct 3 19:36:20 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 22:36:20 -0400 Subject: USG pulls 'sensitive' info off net In-Reply-To: <20011003122909.F9292@navel.introspect>; from kmself@ix.netcom.com on Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 12:29:09PM -0700 References: <3BBB14BD.5EDF8705@sarin.com> <20011003110004.A24438@cluebot.com> <20011003122909.F9292@navel.introspect> Message-ID: <20011003223620.A7526@cluebot.com> On Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 12:29:09PM -0700, Karsten M. Self wrote: > While comprehensive archives are useful, *single* comprehensive archives > present a point of failure and control. The Net would be advised to > develop multiple Google alternatives. And I say this as quite the fan > of Google.... It might be a nice idea, but it's expensive to implement and keep in operation. This will happen if there's a market demand, and there does not appear to be one. -Declan From jya at pipeline.com Wed Oct 3 23:06:59 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 23:06:59 -0700 Subject: WTC Photos Message-ID: <200110040313.XAA22949@blount.mail.mindspring.net> We're now tranferring the 72 WTC photos to Cryptome at full resolution, each about 1 MB. Due to the size we would appreciate a few mirrors being set up before we announce to ease the load on our new finicky server. If anyone can handle a collection of about 76MB, send me a message and I will provide a URL for the package when it is ready -- probably in an hour or two. Then the mirrors will be listed with the intro when announced. Brace for a long download of the set unless you got a T1. The intro explains how the crime scene was snapped. The photographer is not named, thank you for not fingering to whoever might be probing. Guiliani is very vindictive about leaks of info about his secret project. From measl at mfn.org Wed Oct 3 21:31:45 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 23:31:45 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Stupid Congress Tricks: anti-terror bills target cash In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20011003234040.00a42060@mail.well.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Oct 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > Whoever... knowingly conceals more than $10,000 in currency or other > monetary instruments on his or her person... shall be guilty of a currency > smuggling offense (and) shall be imprisoned for not more than 5 years. Wow! We *must* use the Comrade's bank, or we vill be berry berry zorry! > Upon a showing by the property owner by a preponderence of the evidence > that the currency or monetary instruments involved in the offense giving > rise to the forfeiture were derived from a legitimate source and were > intended for a lawful purpose, the court shall reduce the forfeiture to the > maximum amount that is not grossly disproportional to the gravity of the > offense... Your money was _legit_? Oh, no problem then! We just want a little something for our efforts. Not much, just "the maximum amount that is not grossly disproportional to the gravity of the offense (which you *would* have committed, if the money wasn't legit. But since your money *is* legit, you get off lightly, with a mere tap on the wallet, er, wrist. How about 30/70? I don't want to be unreasonable, after all, I have to justify this to the Colonel. Yes, yes, I know you appreciate this - just take your 30 percent, and don't let me catch you sneaking cash around again! -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From declan at well.com Wed Oct 3 20:41:42 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 23:41:42 -0400 Subject: Stupid Congress Tricks: anti-terror bills target cash Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20011003234040.00a42060@mail.well.com> From one of the anti-terror bills said to be a sure bet to pass both chambers. Typos mine. --Declan --- If a financial institution... reports a suspicious transaction to a government agency the financial institution, director, officer, employee, or agent may not notify any person involved in that transaction that the transaction has been reported... Any financial institution that makes a voluntary disclosure of any possible violation of law or regulation to a government agency.... shall not be liable... for such disclosure or for any failure to provide notice of such disclosure to the person who is the subject of such disclosure... Whoever... knowingly conceals more than $10,000 in currency or other monetary instruments on his or her person... shall be guilty of a currency smuggling offense (and) shall be imprisoned for not more than 5 years. A person asserting an innocent owner defense under section 983(d) to the forfeiture of curency... must... be a bona fide purchaser... and... establish that such person took all reasonable steps to determine the source of the currency, monetary instruments, or funds; or to verify that the currency, monetary instruments, or funds were not derived from illegal activity Upon a showing by the property owner by a preponderence of the evidence that the currency or monetary instruments involved in the offense giving rise to the forfeiture were derived from a legitimate source and were intended for a lawful purpose, the court shall reduce the forfeiture to the maximum amount that is not grossly disproportional to the gravity of the offense... From declan at well.com Wed Oct 3 21:21:52 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 00:21:52 -0400 Subject: is there a red-line of PATRIOT bill? In-Reply-To: ; from citizenQ@ziplip.com on Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 08:48:42AM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20011004002152.A20502@cluebot.com> Forget about the old version. You need the new version, with amendments, just four hours old. On Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 08:48:42AM -0700, citizenQ wrote: > Does anyone have a red-line, change-pages version? From bill.stewart at pobox.com Thu Oct 4 00:46:54 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 00:46:54 -0700 Subject: Nifty secret bank system In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011003152232.04ad6c88@pop3.lvcm.com> References: <200110031639.LAA18014@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011004003406.034d4d90@idiom.com> At 03:25 PM 10/03/2001 -0700, Steve Schear wrote: >At 06:30 PM 10/3/2001 +0100, CDR Anonymizer wrote: >>http://archives.nytimes.com/2001/10/03/international/03LAUN.html >> >>lo-tech, trust-based, stable and fully functional since antiquity. I like >>it :-) > >You'll notice the cost of money transfers using this private system >are well below international bank wires. >If governments want to reduce/eliminate this "illicit" competition >they should fully underwrite the cost of international wires below >a certain threshold (say $10,000). This system accomplishes two main things - moving money securely, and working around government interference with money transfers, particularly India's restrictions on their non-convertible rupee. It's approximately the same system that the Italians ran so successfully during the Middle Ages - have offices in multiple cities in Italy and Spain, and there's enough traffic in different directions that the deposits and withdrawals in each city are mostly balanced, so the risky and expensive job of shipping gold and silver between cities only needs to be done on the net differences, not on the much larger gross, and depending on the level of trust between the different parties, you can float for quite a while and more easily absorb the occasional loss to pirates or shipwreck. This market's a bit more directional, perhaps, but it's dealing with cultures that have been doing lots of trading for millenia, and understand the value of repeat business, so it can adapt to the current needs, and adjusts prices to reflect the costs of moving the net transfers and the current risk value of trust. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Thu Oct 4 01:05:32 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 01:05:32 -0700 Subject: America needs an enema... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011002152146.00b0e5b8@127.0.0.1> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011002095523.05129280@brillig.panix.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20010930154543.039883b8@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011003103328.0382c570@idiom.com> At 03:32 PM 10/02/2001 -0700, Jamie Lawrence wrote: >On another note, I just rejoined the CP list after a rather long >hiatus. I hope people will be just as abusive as when I left before. Welcome back! Is your password still "No"? :-) No worries on the "abusive" part .... As far as anarchy and government go, the US has had Neutrality Laws in place since somewhere around the 20s or 30s to keep us from getting into another War To End All Wars, and they also cover individuals as well - Americans aren't allowed to go make war on people without their government's permission.* If those laws aren't repealed in the next couple of weeks, we'll see how many of the patriot-militia types break them and go shoot up a bunch of the wrong Afghans... [* I don't remember if they applied to individuals at the time of the Spanish Civil War, but they have since then.] From sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 4 04:58:42 2001 From: sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com (sonofgomez709) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 04:58:42 -0700 Subject: New CypherPunks Conspiracy!!! {WAS: Now You're A CocoaConSpiritOr, Too...] [WAS!WAS: As A Matter Of Fact, I Think It Was YOUR Idea...] Message-ID: <001001c14cd9$88f29ce0$5e0da2cd@vaio> Actually, it all started with Art Bell's 'Quickening' WebPage, where he lists news items, etc., designed to ScareTheBeJesusOutOfDoGoD&EveryBody, thereby increasing sales of his advertisers Survival Products, such as Combination RadioCanOpenerUzis. >From there, or somewhere in the vicinity, I wound up at Major Ed Dame's Astral Stalking WebPage, where he announces that He/They/SomeOne has now Declared (and thus made part of our Group ConsciousNess/Reality/Future) that SomeOrAnother Nuclear Power Plant is the NextTerroroist(<--Clue&OR&Evidence)Target... Major Dames, OfCourseOfCourse[TM], is kind enough to point us to the MSNews WebSite, who is, in turn, kind enough to give Me&eWe&ATerroroist2BNamedLater an Aerial Photo of said 'Next Terroroist Target'... I, in turn, have provided eWe, via the CypherPunks list, with Hard Evidence to reside on your Hard Disk until you Delete this message and ReFormat Your Hard Drive, to await your eventual Trial&Conviction&mPrisonMint as a person who is knowingly in possession of, or knowingly has an interest in, or accidently subscribed to the CPUNX Disturbed Male Lisp and found out about...MunitionsGrade Encryption....and... ...who downloaded this Conspiratorial eMail. Once the AboveMentionedNextTarget is attacked, probably by someone who never even thought about it until learning from Major Dames that it was HisHerIts Next Target, and we are all hauled into Court as CocoaConSpiritOrs, I suggest that we stick together in naming, during our PleaBarginDealsWithTheDevils, the Yahoo Search Engine as the KingPin of the ConsPiracy... Faking Sincerity, PrisonerOfWhores #05987-196 "Proud To Be A Felon In Ameri%a" ['%'Is4SWASTIKA] -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2542 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Rose8214995792 at nwu.com Thu Oct 4 02:07:57 2001 From: Rose8214995792 at nwu.com (Rose8214995792 at nwu.com) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 05:07:57 -0400 Subject: remember me??l39186 Message-ID: Below is the result of your feedback form. It was submitted by (Rose8214995792 at nwu.com) on Thursday, October 4, 2001 at 05:07:57 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- message: 
hey, wanna see pictures of me and my sexy friends?  then check out my site @ http://beam.to/sexed/    3


g9d2e

---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From info at propnewidea.com  Wed Oct  3 20:29:14 2001
From: info at propnewidea.com (info at propnewidea.com)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 06:29:14 +0300
Subject: business proposal
Message-ID: 


Dear Sir or Madam,

As your company is an Internet provider and, accordingly, you have a large audience, we thought fit to offer you our patented solutions. They will allow you to get additional profit from your audience.
Today the idea of renting software is very popular, but existing solutions in this field requires additional spending and conditions (broadband communication lines for clients, a growing traffic of servers, etc.). One of our inventions allows eliminating these problems. 

A METHOD FOR RENTING SOFTWARE AND OTHER ELECTRONIC DATA (audio, video, etc.) allows a user to use software and other electronic data in exchange for processing advertising information. A fee for use of software (or audio/video files) will be paid to its owner by the advertiser that provides advertisements to a user. This method does not require a permanent connection to a remote resource, which extends a range of software. The novelty of this invention consists in the method of providing advertising information to a user and the method of account settlements between advertisers and owners of software (or audio/video files). This method allows creating with minimal spending a center for distribution of software and other electronic data and attracting a great amount of software developers and users. This will increase the amount of advertising information provided for processing and ensure its targeted delivery.

A METHOD FOR A DEFERRED INFORMATION RETRIEVAL AND DISPLAYING complements the above-described method. This method erases the distinction between information processing online and offline and allows a user not to interrupt his or her surfing on the Internet to view additional information using found links. Besides, this method optimizes the process of information retrieval from remote resources. This will increase the amount and the quality of processing advertising information.

As you have a big audience of users, you can apply these two solutions to develop a new kind of business (rental).
Respectfully,
Andre Lubimov
mailto: info at propnewidea.com





From jya at pipeline.com  Thu Oct  4 06:54:57 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 06:54:57 -0700
Subject: WTC Photos Up
Message-ID: <200110041101.HAA20406@blount.mail.mindspring.net>


Full size high resolution files:

  http://cryptome.org/wtc/wtc-photos

Mirror sites:

  http://rearviewmirror.org/wtcphotos/wtc-photos.htm

  http://www.parrhesia.com/wtc/ (reduced sizes available)

  http://www.phonon.net/wtc/

Other mirrors in the works, and more welcome. Send URLs.




From jya at pipeline.com  Thu Oct  4 07:03:49 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 07:03:49 -0700
Subject: WTC Photos Up Correction
Message-ID: <200110041110.HAA07582@blount.mail.mindspring.net>


Full size high resolution files:

  http://cryptome.org/wtc/wtc-photos.htm

Mirror sites:

  http://rearviewmirror.org/wtcphotos/wtc-photos.htm

  http://www.parrhesia.com/wtc/ (reduced sizes available)

  http://www.phonon.net/wtc/

Other mirrors in the works, and more welcome. Send URLs.




From remailer at remailer.xganon.com  Thu Oct  4 05:10:34 2001
From: remailer at remailer.xganon.com (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 07:10:34 -0500
Subject: Pigs learn the OTP attack
Message-ID: 


This is brilliant. All pigs have to do is "discover a codebook", which,
when XORed with your past e-mail, reveals dark designs.


----------

By ABCNEWS.com Wednesday, October 3, 2001

French investigators think they've found terrorists' code book.

French investigators say they have discovered a terrorist code book that
could reveal details about past and future attacks.

Authorities say they have a notebook that contained codes used to scramble
terrorist communications via e-mail and phone.

With the codes in hand, investigators are now going back over millions of
conversations and e-mails in search of clues that might help stop future
plots. . . .


http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/abc/20011002/ts/wtc_investigation_1.html




From drevil at sidereal.kz  Thu Oct  4 00:20:28 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil)
Date: 4 Oct 2001 07:20:28 -0000
Subject: WTC Photos
In-Reply-To: <200110040313.XAA22949@blount.mail.mindspring.net> (message
  from John Young on Wed, 03 Oct 2001 23:06:59 -0700)
References: <200110040313.XAA22949@blount.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20011004072028.5952.qmail@sidereal.kz>


This brings to mind something which would be a very cool project: Have
a digital camera that public key encrypts the photos before storing
them.  Obviously the private key would be stored in some other safe
place, so if the camera is stolen, no one can see what the photographs
are.  I'm sure Canon will never add this feature, but someday soon
these things may be running Linux and may be hackable.

Anyway, I can't wait to see the photos.




From honig at sprynet.com  Thu Oct  4 07:49:03 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 07:49:03 -0700
Subject: Security Measures
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20011003183441.034da850@idiom.com>
References: <010c01c1490b$ae58af00$0100a8c0@mshome.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011004074903.0095c7c0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 06:35 PM 10/3/01 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
>At 12:25 PM 09/29/2001 -0500, Neil Johnson wrote:
>>The Corps of Engineers has restricted access to most lock and dam
>>installations on the Mississippi (closed observation facilities and public
>>parks around the sites). Their concern is that terrorists may attempt to
>>destory them, causing the dissruption of barge traffic on the river.
>>They estimate over 60 billion dollars in  goods are transported by barge on
>>the river every year.
>>
>>However, they plan no restrictions on river traffic.
>>-
>
>Are rain dances still legal?
>Or only in the dry season?

Interesting.  What do the mullahs think of silver iodide candles
dropped from airplanes?

"When the rain fall it don't fall on one man's house" -B. Marley




From oa at acm.org  Thu Oct  4 08:03:34 2001
From: oa at acm.org (Optimizzin Al-gorithm)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 08:03:34 -0700
Subject: Peer to Peer Newscasting: Morpheus
Message-ID: <3BBC7A46.66F8805C@acm.org>


\begin{cynical}
This could just be Morpheus folks (ie Music City Inc) trying to document
"legit"
"public-good" filesharing uses so as to deter RIAA, MPAA types.
\end{cynical}

>From Morpheus startup screen:

Listed below are examples of content created by Morpheus Users relating
to current important stories and events. Just click below and search for
images/audio/video news.

Important news is being captured by users each day, and it is never made
available to the public. Now you can do your part to make sure the news
will always be available to members of the Morpheus Users Network.
Imagine the power of a news organization with 20 million reporters
around the world. BE THE MEDIA!




From hakkin at sarin.com  Thu Oct  4 08:20:31 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 08:20:31 -0700
Subject: Nasal Discharge & Reporting (commercial benign interrogation)
Message-ID: <3BBC7E3F.EC2CB08C@sarin.com>


How to be a sensitive journalist (US style)

Crying
                           If the interviewee cries, this is not
necessarily
                           a bad or harmful thing. Carry paper tissues
at
                           all times, and offer them as a caring
gesture.
                           One reason people feel self-conscious about
                           crying is nasal discharge, and offering them
a
                           paper tissue can help. A friendly touch on
the
                           arm is also often good.

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/10/04/nmed104.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/10/04/ixhome.html




From gbroiles at well.com  Thu Oct  4 08:36:59 2001
From: gbroiles at well.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 08:36:59 -0700
Subject: WTC Photos
In-Reply-To: <20011004085325.A8383@cluebot.com>
References: <200110040313.XAA22949@blount.mail.mindspring.net>
  <200110040313.XAA22949@blount.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011004083136.037d72e0@bivens.parrhesia.com>


At 08:53 AM 10/4/2001 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>Not sure how *nix-savvy you are, John, but you may want to try out
>"convert." Wrapped in a simple perl or shell script, it'll take care
>of resizing to some reasonable level. 768x512 is sufficient for
>most casual viewing purposes, at least until monitor size/quality increases.

I built a thumbnail page leading to reduced-JPG-quality images from John's 
files; that's online at , with a 
temporary mirror at . That was 
finished last night, but my mails back & forth with John to coordinate the 
mirror were delayed by the need for some sleep. I left the image size alone 
because I couldn't find a good way to get convert or mogrify to do 
height/width-proportional scaling; maybe my fast read of the man page failed.


--
Greg Broiles
gbroiles at well.com
"We have found and closed the thing you watch us with." -- New Delhi street kids




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Thu Oct  4 08:43:05 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 08:43:05 -0700
Subject: Nifty secret bank system
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20011004003406.034d4d90@idiom.com>
Message-ID: 


C'punks,

I ran into a western version of "hawala" about 15 years ago.  It was a
"blocked currency" service offered by a financial group.  Here's how it
worked:

If you live in a currency-blocked country (South African was one, I think it
still might be) you couldn't legally move more than a certain amount out
money out of the country.  To get around this, you would be asked to tear a
small denomination piece of paper money (e.g., a 1 rand note) in half.  You
would keep one half and the financial group would get the other half.  Both
halves of the bill would have the same serial number, of course.

Later, you would get a call telling you where to take the cash you wished to
move out of the country.  At the appointed time and place an agent of the
financial group would meet you.  To prove he was the right guy, he would
present the group's half of the bill.  You would give him the money and the
next day an equivalent amount would be on deposit in an account in your name
in whatever country (and currency) you specified.  The fee for this was
usually just the normal money changer's exchange rate.  Of course, the
original cash never left South Africa, just as the cash in the hawala system
never leaves the countries in question either.

One more aside.  For a brief period when New Zealand was heavily socialist,
the government wanted to stop people from traveling (and spending money)
abroad.  Instead of banning travel, which would have caused a shit storm of
controversy, thy just limited the amount of cash that could be taken out of
the country to something like a few hundred bucks.  Of course, resourceful
Kiwis just used their credit cards...


 S a n d y




From jya at pipeline.com  Thu Oct  4 08:50:36 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 08:50:36 -0700
Subject: WTC Photos
In-Reply-To: <20011004085325.A8383@cluebot.com>
References: <200110040313.XAA22949@blount.mail.mindspring.net>
  <200110040313.XAA22949@blount.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <200110041257.IAA15352@blount.mail.mindspring.net>


Agreed that reduced-size images are desirable. One or more of
the mirrors are offering those, Parrhesia for example. We elected 
to initially offer the full size to not limit what can be offered by others
and to feed those with terabyte maws.

When image downloads jam shut Cryptome, which seems likely 
soon, we'll de-PATRIOT the bloat.

And if I was *nix-savvy what would I need this suck-palace for.

Declan wrote:
>Not sure how *nix-savvy you are, John, but you may want to try out 
>"convert." Wrapped in a simple perl or shell script, it'll take care
>of resizing to some reasonable level. 768x512 is sufficient for
>most casual viewing purposes, at least until monitor size/quality increases.




From declan at well.com  Thu Oct  4 05:53:25 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 08:53:25 -0400
Subject: WTC Photos
In-Reply-To: <200110040313.XAA22949@blount.mail.mindspring.net>; from
  jya@pipeline.com on Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 11:06:59PM -0700
References: <200110040313.XAA22949@blount.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20011004085325.A8383@cluebot.com>


Not sure how *nix-savvy you are, John, but you may want to try out 
"convert." Wrapped in a simple perl or shell script, it'll take care
of resizing to some reasonable level. 768x512 is sufficient for
most casual viewing purposes, at least until monitor size/quality increases.

-Declan

On Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 11:06:59PM -0700, John Young wrote:
> We're now tranferring the 72 WTC photos to Cryptome at
> full resolution, each about 1 MB. Due to the size we would
> appreciate a few mirrors being set up before we announce
> to ease the load on our new finicky server.
> 
> If anyone can handle a collection of about 76MB, send me
> a message and I will provide a URL for the package when
> it is ready -- probably in an hour or two. Then the mirrors
> will be listed with the intro when announced. Brace for a 
> long download of the set unless you got a T1.
> 
> The intro explains how the crime scene was snapped. The 
> photographer is not named, thank you for not fingering
> to whoever might be probing. Guiliani is very vindictive
> about leaks of info about his secret project.




From piolenc at mozcom.com  Wed Oct  3 17:59:00 2001
From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 08:59:00 +0800
Subject: USG pulls 'sensitive' info off net
References: <3BBB14BD.5EDF8705@sarin.com>
Message-ID: <3BBBB454.148CFBAA@mozcom.com>


Nincompoops! Remove all information of potential value to terrorists and
you remove...all information.

Time to flood the Feds with FOIA requests.

Marc de Piolenc

Khoder bin Hakkin wrote:
> 
> Must've never heard of caching..
> 
> http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-100301safe.story
> 
> Several federal agencies have removed sensitive documents and reports
> from their Internet sites following the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks,
> saying they want to keep the information out of the wrong hands.




From gbroiles at well.com  Thu Oct  4 09:43:39 2001
From: gbroiles at well.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 09:43:39 -0700
Subject: ZKS Shutdown
In-Reply-To: <5d175bdfd6756456a92c5c0941e3a137@dizum.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011004092731.00a38d90@bivens.parrhesia.com>


At 06:20 PM 10/4/2001 +0200, Nomen Nescio wrote:

>Zero-Knowledge Systems is reported to be shutting down their Freedom
>network and product.  A letter has apparently been sent to subscribers
>with the bad news.  Could someone please post a copy here?  Does it say
>anything about the reasons?  Just lack of money, or something related
>to 9/11?
>
>The web sites have not been updated and are still hyping the new version
>3.0 released just a few weeks ago.

This message appeared on coderpunks a few days ago -

>Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 09:38:15 +0100
>From: Ben Laurie 
>To: David Wagner 
>Cc: coderpunks at toad.com
>Subject: Re: What are the main Problems of implementing a pipe-net?
>
>David Wagner wrote:
> >
> > Are you aware of the anonymous network that ZKS (Zero Knowledge Systems)
> > has set up?  It has many of the same features as Pipenet.  It does not
> > go to quite the same extremes for anonymity in the face of extremely
> > sophisticated attackers, but they seem to have picked a pretty darn good
> > point in the tradeoff space.  Technically, ZKS seems to be pretty strong.
>
>They scrapped their affiliate program last week - so I guess that means
>bye-bye network.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Ben.
>
>--
>http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html
>
>"There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he
>doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff

... and I just got a press release from ZKS this morning trumpeting the 
virtues of Freedom 3.0; sounds like maybe they're abandoning the network 
and shifting their consumer-product focus to software alone. I looked at 
their website after seeing Ben's message and was struck by how much they've 
shifted away from selling service to consumers at $49 each, and are now 
targeting businesses who are allegedly concerned about their customers' 
alleged concern about privacy. They did appear to be willing to sell the 
consumer software, but it clearly wasn't the focus of their business as 
presented by the website.


--
Greg Broiles
gbroiles at well.com
"We have found and closed the thing you watch us with." -- New Delhi street kids




From anonymous at anonymizer.com  Thu Oct  4 09:55:00 2001
From: anonymous at anonymizer.com (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 09:55 -0700
Subject: WTC photos - broken metal, broken hearts
Message-ID: <200110041655.JAA23263@sirius.infonex.com>


At 11:34 AM 10/4/01 -0500, you wrote:
>Virtually everyone who visits the WTC site reports the same effect:
>news media.  They just show broken metal.  You can get the same thing
>at the local junkyard.
> 

not if you ever lived in new york, ate lunch 
innumerable times in the courtyard below the 
towers, watched the pink and blue sunrise 
reflect off them as you took a dawn ferry with 
your lover, watched the city glisten from a 
quarter-mile up in the sky, felt your stomach 
flutter in vertigo at the sheer size of the towers against 
the clouds standing at the base looking up ...
We are in tears looking at the cracked city.

You were never there, or you have no soul.  




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Thu Oct  4 09:57:37 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 09:57:37 -0700
Subject: ZKS Shutdown
In-Reply-To: <5d175bdfd6756456a92c5c0941e3a137@dizum.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011004095128.034e20b0@idiom.com>


It's on Slashdot.
http://www.freedom.net/prem.html - shutdown warning
http://www.freedom.net/support/article.html?article=410 - warning that
         with fewer servers, your anonymity is less protected
         from traffic analysis
http://slashdot.org/articles/01/10/04/1526256.shtml - discussion


At 06:20 PM 10/04/2001 +0200, Nomen Nescio wrote:
>Zero-Knowledge Systems is reported to be shutting down their Freedom
>network and product.  A letter has apparently been sent to subscribers
>with the bad news.  Could someone please post a copy here?  Does it say
>anything about the reasons?  Just lack of money, or something related
>to 9/11?
>
>The web sites have not been updated and are still hyping the new version
>3.0 released just a few weeks ago.




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Thu Oct  4 10:00:51 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 10:00:51 -0700
Subject: WTC Photos
Message-ID: <3BBC95C3.4CB4D722@lsil.com>


"Dr. Evil"  wrote :
>
> This brings to mind something which would be a very cool project: Have
> a digital camera that public key encrypts the photos before storing
> them.  Obviously the private key would be stored in some other safe
> place, so if the camera is stolen, no one can see what the photographs
> are.  I'm sure Canon will never add this feature, but someday soon
> these things may be running Linux and may be hackable.
> 
> Anyway, I can't wait to see the photos.
>
Most of these things are SOCs based on standard 32-bit CPU's with
specialized peripherals for CCD, LCD, pixel processing. Often they're
using conventional RTOSes like VxWorks, pSOS, Nucleus. Most of them
include some mechanism for updating the application SW in FLASH. That's
where you might start disassembly. If the camera of interest is using an
SOC that is not proprietary you can probably get data sheets from the Si
manufacturer. They're definitely hackable. The BIG PROBLEM as with
everything else is how to find the time to do the fun stuff?

I think it would be cool to have a high quality CCD front end that could
be used as an add-on to an iPAQ. Use a microdrive for storage, store
everything in Bayer format(fast), do the post pocessing later or in the
background. An iPAQ could handle the control of a front end and you
could do whatever you want with the files.

Mike




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Thu Oct  4 10:09:41 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 10:09:41 -0700
Subject: Stupid Congress Tricks: anti-terror bills target cash
Message-ID: <3BBC97D5.8C21D93B@lsil.com>


Declan,

The authoritarian streak is wide and deep ain't it? Every time I hear
Bush talk about protecting freedom I feel nauseous.

Which bill?

Is this bill referring to annyone carrying cash within the borders or to
people crossing the borders?

There are already customs regulations with a $10k threshold. 

Mike




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Thu Oct  4 07:11:36 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 10:11:36 -0400
Subject: Who wants to be a millionaire
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20011005003006.00a19ca0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <3BBC6E18.A7DE15FB@acmenet.net>


mattd wrote:
> 
> Bin laden demolitions has authorised me to offer you a once in a lifetime deal.
> 1million dollars untracable digital cash will be paid to an account/s of
> your choice
> for enough intelligence to proceed with further superpower implosions.
> Insider info preffered but not essential,leave packet online in freenet
> transient node...

Is there any way to solve this transaction problem without a
mutually-trusted third party?

If BLD and the information supplier each trusted that the other actually
possessed and was providing the information desired by the other, they
could do a one-bit-at-a-time exchange.

If the transaction were "legitimate", they could do an ordinary transfer
with legal recourse if one party cheated.

If they were able to find a third party they both trusted, he could
examine both sides' materials and release them if both were
satisfactory.

Meeting face to face would be dangerous for both parties, but more so
for the information supplier.

But say the information supplier didn't really support the goals of BLD,
but just wanted the money. He wouldn't trust the same kinds of people
and institutions that BLD would. There used to be amoral bankers who
would act as middlemen, no questions asked, but I get the impression
they're pretty much all shut down. Assuming that the two parties were
not able to find anyone they both trusted, and couldn't rely on the rule
of law to punish dishonesty, and didn't want to meet face-to-face, how
could the supplier and BLD conduct a mutually-secure transaction?


Steve Furlong

-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From mean-green at hushmail.com  Thu Oct  4 10:52:16 2001
From: mean-green at hushmail.com (mean-green at hushmail.com)
Date: Thu,  4 Oct 2001 10:52:16 -0700
Subject: How-to be a sheep article on the WSJ
Message-ID: <200110041752.f94HqGc65490@mailserver1.hushmail.com>


October 4, 2001
Capital
A Pivotal Point In American Life

IT IS EASY TO ASSERT that Sept. 11 "changed everything." It certainly is redefining normalcy in New York and Washington, where the sound of a siren or the darkness of a blown fuse revives the anxiety of that terrible Tuesday. But life is changing irreversibly in peaceful places such as Tyler, Texas, too.

The sting of the terrorist attack will fade, albeit more slowly for those whose loved ones perished. But Sept. 11 looks like one of those pivot points in American life. Its true significance will be clear only with the hindsight of history. Three weeks is time enough, though, to begin to see the magnitude of the changes -- and they aren't limited to New York and Washington.

Before Sept. 11, Americans worried about the growing capacity of government and business to use technology to instantly retrieve and share intimate details of our lives. When the Department of Health and Human Services was drafting new privacy rules for medical records last year, it got 52,000 comments.

Today, concern about privacy is displaced by concern about security. At Tyler's tiny airport, the screeners open every carry-on bag and examine every crevice. But no one complains, even silently, about exposing dirty underwear in a public place. Public pressure to protect the confidentiality of financial information, the subject of those small-print notices stuffed in bills and bank statements, is now countered by a more urgent need to track the terrorists' money trail.

Technologies that seemed frightening to many last month -- such as the cameras and software that scan and identify faces in public places -- seem comforting today. Polls show a surge in support for a national identity card, especially when it is described as a way to combat terrorism.

BEFORE SEPT. 11, the U.S. was striving for frictionless air travel, offering boarding passes at computer terminals and baggage check-in at downtown counters. Complaints about air travel weren't about fares, which were driven down by competition, or safety, but about delays caused by the popularity of air travel.

Today, we are putting friction back into airplane check-ins -- and that, along with fear of hijacking, may drive American families back into their cars. "The generation that dominates most markets, the baby boomers, are obsessed with safety and their own well-being, more than any other generation that has preceded them," says Jim Bulin, a Northville, Mich., consultant to the auto industry.

0See more information about some of the items mentioned in this column.

* * *
Please send comments to capital at wsj.com1. We'll post selected replies at WSJ.com/CapitalExchange2 on Sunday.
 
The generation that put bike helmets on kids and durable car seats in minivans will be reluctant to fly to Disneyland or Club Med. The attacks have revived talk of building a world-class high-speed rail network. But that's just talk. For now, many more families will be taking vacations by car.

Before Sept. 11, the U.S. was, with some hesitation, erasing its national borders. A long-simmering dispute over allowing Mexican trucks to travel U.S. highways was nearing resolution. The border with Canada was all but invisible. President Bush was pondering ways to legalize the status of immigrants from Mexico who came here illegally.

Today, we are fortifying our borders again. The aerial photos of trucks waiting to carry parts from Canadian factories to Detroit-area auto plants are just the most tangible evidence. Congress is moving to fortify the Canadian border. The power of globalization to wash away the nation's borders like ocean waves seems less inexorable at a moment when the president has created an office of homeland security.

THE IMPORTANCE of government was widely questioned before Sept. 11. For a time, Washington was plain boring to many. Then, thanks to Bill Clinton, it became fascinating in the way a soap opera is fascinating. And Washington became a venue for sitcoms. The power of markets to produce prosperity was self-evident; the potential to privatize functions once reserved to government appeared unlimited. There was debate, but there was no doubt which side was winning.

Today, the centrality of government -- particularly the one in Washington -- is unquestioned. The government is criticized for not foreseeing or preventing the attacks, and for the adequacy and shape of its military and economic response. But no one is calling Washington irrelevant. The widespread belief that a federal takeover of airport security is the best way to assure travelers of their safety suggests a slowing in the momentum to privatize everything, no matter how strong the economic case for privatization and competition.

The lasting impact of Sept. 11 is likely to be greatest on Americans in their late teens and early 20s, "the people who are still young enough to have their values being formed," Mr. Bulin suggests. For them, Sept. 11 will likely prove as important in shaping attitudes and behavior as the traumatic Kennedy assassination and the divisive Vietnam War were for an earlier generation. And it is truly impossible to predict just how that will show itself in the decades ahead.

-- David Wessel

Write to David Wessel at capital at wsj.com3



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Resources
For recent polls on national identity cards, see
www.fabmac.com/issues.html4

www.people-press.org/terrorist01rpt.htm5

***
6Out in the Heartland, the Word 'Normal' Seems Possible Again (Sept. 26)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
URL for this Article:
http://interactive.wsj.com/archive/retrieve.cgi?id=SB1002146366879715800.djm

Hyperlinks in this Article:
(1) mailto:capital at wsj.com 
(2) http://WSJ.com/CapitalExchange 
(3) mailto:capital at wsj.com 
(4) http://www.fabmac.com/issues.html 
(5) http://www.people-press.org/terrorist01rpt.htm 
(6) http://interactive.wsj.com/archive/retrieve.cgi?id=SB1001450707867348600.djm 




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Thu Oct  4 10:58:24 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 10:58:24 -0700
Subject: WTC Photos
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


"John Doe Number Two" wrote:

> John shouldn't have been walking inside
> the crime scene. 

Why not?

> The cops treated him better than they
> should have.

How should they have treated him?


 S a n d y




From pcapelli at nsec.net  Thu Oct  4 08:14:05 2001
From: pcapelli at nsec.net (Peter Capelli)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 11:14:05 -0400
Subject: How-to be a sheep article on the WSJ
Message-ID: <009c01c14ce7$35cd7c20$695f1b09@raleigh.ibm.com>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
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From grocha at neutraldomain.org  Thu Oct  4 11:14:23 2001
From: grocha at neutraldomain.org (Gabriel Rocha)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 11:14:23 -0700
Subject: WTC Photos
In-Reply-To: ; from
  johndoe2@mail.anonymizer.com on Thu, Oct 04, 2001 at 12:51:34PM -0500
References: <318f3b29128f4e75c2d5428c1c991fef@mixmaster.nullify.org>
  
Message-ID: <20011004111423.R43984@neutraldomain.org>


,----[ On Thu, Oct 04, at 12:51PM, John Doe Number Two wrote: ]--------------
| John was busy playing war tourist, and as any journalist who has covered a
| conflict will tell you, war tourists are some of the lower forms of life one
| can encounter.

John was playing someone who was in the area and was mesmerized by the
destruction.

| Think pornographer with a flack jacket.

By and by, not what John seems to have been doing, I dont see John going
out of his way to get pictures in a war zone. I do see John going into
the area, because he was told he couldnt and he saw a clear oportunity
to go in with little hassle (as far as going in goes) on his part)

| John shouldn't have been walking inside the crime scene.  The cops treated
| him better than they should have.

The "Cops"(tm) should have actually done their job and guarded the
"crime scene" effectively, that they failed to do so is not John's
problem. Arresting him for picture taking, when it is not a crime in the
book is a tad preposterous in my book, have they arrested any of the
people who took pictures and sold them to CNN? I think not... How about
the amateur camera men who sold their tapes to the networks and even got
to go on TV as talk show guests? And how about destroying the pictures?
Hey, if he was going to be arrested, why destroy the evidence of the
crime? If the arrest was truly legitimate, wouldnt it make sense to
simply keep the memory card as "evidence" ? It was simple harrassment,
they know the photo ban wont stand a try at court... --Gabe

PS- this is the "shit, I wasnt there anyway, so my opinions are just
that" line

-- 
"It's not brave, if you're not scared."




From hakkin at sarin.com  Thu Oct  4 11:23:21 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 11:23:21 -0700
Subject: Anxiety in State Dept over VOA playing Omar ---text
Message-ID: <3BBCA919.9C4F882A@sarin.com>


Mullah Omar: +America has
              created the evil, which will
              destroy it;

              +If we now shall hand over Osama, the same
              people, who today demand from us to hand
              over him, already tomorrow will defame us for
              this treachery;

              (Correspondent of +Voice of America;
              interviewed Mullah Mohammad Omar and its
              translation is forbidden by State Department of
              USA on September 22, 2001). However +Voice
              of America; nevertheless used interview of
              Mullah Omar in its broadcasting, though not
              completely, that has caused as the American
              press writes, anxiety in State Department of
              USA.)

              Question: Why have you not exiled Osama bin
              Laden from the country?

              Mullah Omar: It is not connected with Osama
              bin Laden. It is connected to Islam. The prestige
              of Islam is staked. And besides it is Afghan
              tradition.

              Question: you know, that USA declared war to
              terrorism?

              Mullah Omar. I know only two promises. The
              first is the promise of Allah. The second is that
              of Bush. The promise of Allah says, that my
              ground - is extensive. If you will undertake travel
              on the way of Allah, you can locate in any place
              on this ground, and everywhere you will be
              protected  Promise of the Bush consists that
              on the ground did not remain places, where you
              could hide and where you will not find place to
              locate. We shall look, which one between these
              two promises will be executed.

              Question: But are you not afraid for the sake
              of your people, yourselves, Talibans, and
              country?

              Mullah Omar: Allah Almighty  he helps
              believer and Muslims. Allah speaks, that he will
              never be pleased with atheists. In worldly
              affairs, America is very strong. But even though
              it is twice as strong as it nowadays, it cannot
              overcome us. We are convinced, that nobody
              can cause us harm, if Allah is with us.

              Question: That is all this does not make you
              worry. But Afghans worldwide are extremely
              anxious with the present situation 

              Mullah Omar: It worries us. Great dangers are
              awaiting us ahead. But we depend on favor of
              Allah. Can seem, that for us has started the
              moment of truth, but blessing of Allah is with
              Muslims.

              Listen to our point of view. If we now shall hand
              over Osama, the same people, who today
              demand his hand over, already will blame us for
              this treachery  The same people will ask
              tomorrow: +Why have you lost prestige of
              Islam? Why have you drawn shame upon
              Muslims?; Everyone is afraid of America, and
              everyone wants to charm it. But let me tell to
              you something. Americans cannot prevent new
              acts from a series of what that recently
              happened, as America has taken Islam in
              hostage. America has made it in Islamic world
              and especially in Islamic countries.

              Look at the Islamic countries: people in despair.
              They complain that Islam has disappeared.
              Worldly laws have replaced Islamic law. But
              people remain firm in their Islamic belief. In the
              pain and despair, some of them commit acts of
              suicide. They feel, that they have nothing to
              lose. If USA really wants to finish with this evil,
              they should know, what is necessary to be
              done. They should stop the pressure upon
              Islam. Release Islam. And then there will come
              simplification, and everyone can engage in the
              business.

              Question: What do you mean, when you
              speak, that America has taken Islamic world in
              hostage?

              Mullah Omar: America controls governments
              of Islamic states. America looks after them that
              those carried out its requirements. Such
              government is extremely far from its own
              people. People ask it to follow Islam, but
              government does not heed them. People are
              powerless before their own governments
              because it is in the hands of United States. So
              the government becomes ineligible and starts to
              forget people.

              If someone follows a way of Islam, the
              government arrests or kills him. So America
              acts. If it will cease to support similar
              governments and will give people to understand
              with them, such things will be stopped. America
              is created that evil, which now attacks on it. This
              evil will not disappear, whether I shall die,
              whether will die Osama, whether other people
              will die. It is the American policy. USA should
              recede and reconsider it. They should stop
              attempts of spreading of the empire on all other
              world, especially in the Islamic countries.

              In a name of +humanitarian help;, Americans
              have brought in thousand of Bibles to
              Afghanistan and propagandized Christianity. If
              they have dared on it here at present, then
              think what they would have done in Arabian
              countries! Muslims understand it. Also I know
              also, that they can do nothing And
              consequently they will kill themselves in
              self-destructive attacks. They do not want to
              live on this ground any more.

              Question: That is, it means, you do not give
              Osama bin Laden to United States?

              Mullah Omar: No, we cannot make it. If we so
              shall act - means, we are not Muslims 
              Means, Islam has died. If we were afraid of an
              attack, we could hand over Osama after recent
              American threats and bombardments; but after
              that America again could attack on us, and
              during this time, we would not have any friend.

              Question: Really can you battle with America in
              full force? Whether America will not win and
              whether then your people will not suffer even
              more?

              Mullah Omar: On a surface it seems, as if all
              indeed is like that, but I am convinced: it does
              not happen. Please, remember: nothing can
              happen, except for as at the will of Allah
              All-mighty. If the person really will trust on will of
              Allah, then he believes that Almighty will help
              him, will give him the favor and will grant him
              good luck.

              +Voice of America;
              Washington

http://www.kavkaz.org/english/news/2001/09/28/news1.htm




From hakkin at sarin.com  Thu Oct  4 11:29:41 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 11:29:41 -0700
Subject: How can I Train Myself for Jihad 
  http://www.qoqaz.co.za/html/articlesjihadtrain.htm
Message-ID: <3BBCAA95.A9077253@sarin.com>


http://www.qoqaz.co.za/html/articlesjihadtrain.htm

4.6 Military Training

Although sometimes it is difficult to obtain comprehensive military
training in one's home country, it is very easy to do
plenty of background reading using freely-available books and CDs,
before one actually goes abroad.

The US Army has produced a number of military field manuals on CD on all
topics from light weapons, tanks and
artillery to mines, military fieldcraft and combat medicine. The full
set is available on CD for less than US$100 and
many field manuals are also available on the Internet. One source of
availability is
http://www.sgtquartermaster.net/CDROM.html or by searching for the term
'US Military Field Manuals CD' or just 'US
Military Field Manuals Online'. Even though the US Army Field Manuals
contain information specific to US Weapons,
they still contain a large amount of useful information applicable in
all circumstances. It is useful to get a full set of CDs
for your mosque or Islamic society that everyone can use.


4.4 Firearms Training

Firearms training differs from country to country. In some countries,
possession of firearms by the public is illegal, in
other countries it is legal. In some countries of the World, especially
the USA, firearms training is available to the general
public. One should try to join a shooting club if possible and make
regular visits to the firing range. There are many
firearms courses available to the public in USA, ranging from one day to
two weeks or more. These courses are good
but expensive. Some of them are only meant for security personnel but
generally they will teach anyone. It is also better
to attend these courses in pairs or by yourself, no more. Do not make
public announcements when going on such a
course. Find one, book your place, go there, learn, come back home and
keep it yourself. Whilst on the course, keep
your opinions to yourself, do not argue or debate with anyone, do not
preach about Islam and make Salah in secret. You
are going there to train for Jihad, not call people to Islam.




From anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org  Thu Oct  4 09:34:01 2001
From: anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org (Incognito Innominatus)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 11:34:01 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: WTC Photos
Message-ID: <318f3b29128f4e75c2d5428c1c991fef@mixmaster.nullify.org>


Virtually everyone who visits the WTC site reports the same effect:
they are astonished by the scale of the devastation, utterly beyond
from what they have seen in photos and on TV.  Then they take pictures,
and guess what: they are no different from anyone else's pictures.
Pictures show a tiny window into the scene; but you have to be there in
360 degree reality to get the full impact.

John seems to have experienced the same thing.  His memories are overlayed
onto the photos, making them for him part of a larger reality.  But to
a viewer, they are no different from what we have seen from the other
news media.  They just show broken metal.  You can get the same thing
at the local junkyard.




From mean-green at hushmail.com  Thu Oct  4 11:45:49 2001
From: mean-green at hushmail.com (mean-green at hushmail.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 11:45:49 -0700
Subject: How-to be a sheep article on the WSJ
Message-ID: <20011004114549.A31767@navel.introspect>


[Reformatted for legibility:  linewraps and indent.  Please take the few
moments to present material in a clear and readable manner.  KMSelf]

    October 4, 2001
    Capital
    A Pivotal Point In American Life

    IT IS EASY TO ASSERT that Sept. 11 "changed everything." It
    certainly is redefining normalcy in New York and Washington, where
    the sound of a siren or the darkness of a blown fuse revives the
    anxiety of that terrible Tuesday. But life is changing irreversibly
    in peaceful places such as Tyler, Texas, too.

    The sting of the terrorist attack will fade, albeit more slowly for
    those whose loved ones perished. But Sept. 11 looks like one of
    those pivot points in American life. Its true significance will be
    clear only with the hindsight of history. Three weeks is time
    enough, though, to begin to see the magnitude of the changes -- and
    they aren't limited to New York and Washington.

    Before Sept. 11, Americans worried about the growing capacity of
    government and business to use technology to instantly retrieve and
    share intimate details of our lives. When the Department of Health
    and Human Services was drafting new privacy rules for medical
    records last year, it got 52,000 comments.

    Today, concern about privacy is displaced by concern about security.
    At Tyler's tiny airport, the screeners open every carry-on bag and
    examine every crevice. But no one complains, even silently, about
    exposing dirty underwear in a public place. Public pressure to
    protect the confidentiality of financial information, the subject of
    those small-print notices stuffed in bills and bank statements, is
    now countered by a more urgent need to track the terrorists' money
    trail.

    Technologies that seemed frightening to many last month -- such as
    the cameras and software that scan and identify faces in public
    places -- seem comforting today. Polls show a surge in support for a
    national identity card, especially when it is described as a way to
    combat terrorism.

    BEFORE SEPT. 11, the U.S. was striving for frictionless air travel,
    offering boarding passes at computer terminals and baggage check-in
    at downtown counters. Complaints about air travel weren't about
    fares, which were driven down by competition, or safety, but about
    delays caused by the popularity of air travel.

    Today, we are putting friction back into airplane check-ins -- and
    that, along with fear of hijacking, may drive American families back
    into their cars. "The generation that dominates most markets, the
    baby boomers, are obsessed with safety and their own well-being,
    more than any other generation that has preceded them," says Jim
    Bulin, a Northville, Mich., consultant to the auto industry.

    0See more information about some of the items mentioned in this
    column.

    * * *
    Please send comments to capital at wsj.com1. We'll post selected
    replies at WSJ.com/CapitalExchange2 on Sunday.  The generation that
    put bike helmets on kids and durable car seats in minivans will be
    reluctant to fly to Disneyland or Club Med. The attacks have revived
    talk of building a world-class high-speed rail network. But that's
    just talk. For now, many more families will be taking vacations by
    car.

    Before Sept. 11, the U.S. was, with some hesitation, erasing its
    national borders. A long-simmering dispute over allowing Mexican
    trucks to travel U.S. highways was nearing resolution. The border
    with Canada was all but invisible. President Bush was pondering ways
    to legalize the status of immigrants from Mexico who came here
    illegally.

    Today, we are fortifying our borders again. The aerial photos of
    trucks waiting to carry parts from Canadian factories to
    Detroit-area auto plants are just the most tangible evidence.
    Congress is moving to fortify the Canadian border. The power of
    globalization to wash away the nation's borders like ocean waves
    seems less inexorable at a moment when the president has created an
    office of homeland security.

    THE IMPORTANCE of government was widely questioned before Sept. 11.
    For a time, Washington was plain boring to many. Then, thanks to
    Bill Clinton, it became fascinating in the way a soap opera is
    fascinating. And Washington became a venue for sitcoms. The power of
    markets to produce prosperity was self-evident; the potential to
    privatize functions once reserved to government appeared unlimited.
    There was debate, but there was no doubt which side was winning.

    Today, the centrality of government -- particularly the one in
    Washington -- is unquestioned. The government is criticized for not
    foreseeing or preventing the attacks, and for the adequacy and shape
    of its military and economic response. But no one is calling
    Washington irrelevant. The widespread belief that a federal takeover
    of airport security is the best way to assure travelers of their
    safety suggests a slowing in the momentum to privatize everything,
    no matter how strong the economic case for privatization and
    competition.

    The lasting impact of Sept. 11 is likely to be greatest on Americans
    in their late teens and early 20s, "the people who are still young
    enough to have their values being formed," Mr. Bulin suggests. For
    them, Sept. 11 will likely prove as important in shaping attitudes
    and behavior as the traumatic Kennedy assassination and the divisive
    Vietnam War were for an earlier generation. And it is truly
    impossible to predict just how that will show itself in the decades
    ahead.

    -- David Wessel

    Write to David Wessel at capital at wsj.com3



    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Resources
    For recent polls on national identity cards, see
    www.fabmac.com/issues.html4

    www.people-press.org/terrorist01rpt.htm5

    ***
    6Out in the Heartland, the Word 'Normal' Seems Possible Again (Sept. 26)


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    URL for this Article:
    http://interactive.wsj.com/archive/retrieve.cgi?id=SB1002146366879715800.djm

    Hyperlinks in this Article:
    (1) mailto:capital at wsj.com 
    (2) http://WSJ.com/CapitalExchange 
    (3) mailto:capital at wsj.com 
    (4) http://www.fabmac.com/issues.html 
    (5) http://www.people-press.org/terrorist01rpt.htm 
    (6) http://interactive.wsj.com/archive/retrieve.cgi?id=SB1001450707867348600.djm 




From tcmay at got.net  Thu Oct  4 11:50:29 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 11:50:29 -0700
Subject: ZKS Shutdown
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20011004095128.034e20b0@idiom.com>
Message-ID: 


On Thursday, October 4, 2001, at 09:57 AM, Bill Stewart wrote:

> It's on Slashdot.
> http://www.freedom.net/prem.html - shutdown warning
> http://www.freedom.net/support/article.html?article=410 - warning that
>         with fewer servers, your anonymity is less protected
>         from traffic analysis
> http://slashdot.org/articles/01/10/04/1526256.shtml - discussion
>


I just saw Ian Goldberg's latest message on this. Here's most of it:

Re:Ian Goldberg, Bruce Schneier & Whitfield Di (Score:1)
by Ian Goldberg on Thursday October 04, @01:38PM (#2388977)
(User #526438 Info | http://slashdot.org/)
Believe me, no one is more disappointed about this than I am, but right 
now there simply isn't enough market buy-in on the premium services to 
justify the network's operating costs. :-(

As a business, we are focusing on the product that customers and 
partners want. Here's an official Zero-Knowledge Systems statement on 
the matter:


With the release of Freedom 3.0 [zeroknowledge.com] and the 
discontinuation of the Freedom Network (our anonymous browsing and 
encrypted pseudonym service) there have been a number of questions for 
more details about the decision to stop offering the Freedom Network 
services. Hopefully this will help clarify things.

When we released Freedom 1.0 close to 2 years ago we saw a significant 
percentage of our users subscribe to the premium Freedom Network 
services. This was anticipated as our early adopters were very privacy 
and technology aware and had expressed strong interest in the Freedom 
Network offering.

As we began to increase the distribution of Freedom into the mass market 
with the release of Freedom 2.0 & 2.2, we saw a disproportionately high 
percentage of users who subscribed to the standard features (and not 
Freedom Network services). The initial interest in the premium (FN) 
services amongst our early adopters simply didn't carry over to the 
mainstream and as our user numbers grew, we began to realize that the 
market was looking for the kind of features we are now offering in 
Freedom 3.0.

As we began our feature triage for Freedom 3.0 (almost 9 months ago) we 
heard from customers and focus groups of users, as well as channel 
partners [zeroknowledge.com], and reflected on the statistics from our 
existing user base, and decided that there was not enough mass market 
demand for the premium services to justify continuing the service.

This was entirely a market related decision. The market demand for 
consumer Internet security and safety tools has grown considerably in 
the 4 years our company has been in business. Freedom 3.0 is a strong 
competitor to security offerings from companies such as Symantec and 
McAfee and we have gotten very positive market support and a warm 
reception from channel partners to this new version of our suite of 
privacy and security tools.

There has been speculation that this decision was somehow related to 
government pressure or was made in the wake of the tragedies of 
September 11. This is simply untrue. For the past 3 months we have been 
beta-testing this version with partners, getting certification from 
Microsoft for our drivers and completing our Alpha and Beta cycles with 
our beta users. Support for the Freedom network offering was removed 
from the client code base well before the recent tragedies of September 
11.

Our research team is continuing work in the area of privacy enhanced 
network protocols, and we are open to any suggestions the research 
community offers on how we can leverage the work that went into the 
Freedom Network design and operation to advance this area of computer 
science. If you have suggestions or interest in this, please contact us 
at corporate at zeroknowledge.com [mailto].

Zero-Knowledge continues to offer our consumer protection utility 
Freedom 3.0 and we are very excited by the prospects for this product. 
We also have a division that is addressing the market need of enterprise 
privacy technologies that stem from managing consumer data that require 
strong security and policy frameworks to adhere to privacy regulations 
and customer preference management (Healthcare; Financial and other 
consumer data that is subject to new security, privacy restrictions 
relating to legislation like HIPAA, GLB, PIPEDA, EU privacy directive).

Our company continues to evolve and focus our efforts on market needs 
and customer demands and we remain very confident of our prospec




From pcapelli at nsec.net  Thu Oct  4 09:04:15 2001
From: pcapelli at nsec.net (Peter Capelli)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 12:04:15 -0400
Subject: How-to be a sheep article on the WSJ
References: 
Message-ID: <00bd01c14cee$385f9480$695f1b09@raleigh.ibm.com>

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From mmotyka at lsil.com  Thu Oct  4 12:06:37 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 12:06:37 -0700
Subject: Islam
Message-ID: <3BBCB33D.CE3B06F4@lsil.com>


Let's see, as far as the Taliban and probably other extremists are
concerned, all of Islam is in a life and death battle against
non-believers, non-Muslims, namely a bunch of atheist Americans. 

The U.S., OTOH, is taking great pains to emphasize that we are not at
war with Islam but rather with a relatively small group of extremists.

Somebody has the wrong picture.




From rsw at MIT.EDU  Thu Oct  4 09:17:16 2001
From: rsw at MIT.EDU (Riad S. Wahby)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 12:17:16 -0400
Subject: WTC Photos
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011004083136.037d72e0@bivens.parrhesia.com>;
  from gbroiles@well.com on Thu, Oct 04, 2001 at 08:36:59AM -0700
References: <200110040313.XAA22949@blount.mail.mindspring.net>
  <200110040313.XAA22949@blount.mail.mindspring.net>
  <20011004085325.A8383@cluebot.com>
  <5.1.0.14.2.20011004083136.037d72e0@bivens.parrhesia.com>
Message-ID: <20011004121716.B4104@positron.mit.edu>


Greg Broiles  wrote:
> I built a thumbnail page leading to reduced-JPG-quality images from John's 
> files; that's online at , with a 
> temporary mirror at . That was 
> finished last night, but my mails back & forth with John to coordinate the 
> mirror were delayed by the need for some sleep. I left the image size alone 
> because I couldn't find a good way to get convert or mogrify to do 
> height/width-proportional scaling; maybe my fast read of the man page failed.

mogrify -geometry 40%x40% wtcxxx.jpg

I have made 40%-sized images; they'll soon be available at

http://www.phonon.net/wtc/small/

--
Riad Wahby
rsw at mit.edu
MIT VI-2/A 2002




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Thu Oct  4 09:26:11 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 12:26:11 -0400
Subject: Who wants to be a millionaire
References: <6795b34a80c93135b0237c5dbde2acc9@dizum.com>
Message-ID: <3BBC8DA3.677D6416@acmenet.net>


Nomen Nescio wrote:
> 
> > > Bin laden demolitions has authorised me to offer you a once in a lifetime deal.
> > > 1million dollars untracable digital cash will be paid to an account/s of
> > > your choice
> > > for enough intelligence to proceed with further superpower implosions.
> > > Insider info preffered but not essential,leave packet online in freenet
> > > transient node...
> >
> > Is there any way to solve this transaction problem without a
> > mutually-trusted third party?
> 
> It would be necessary to reduce the criteria used by the purchaser into
> algorithmic form.  Write a program which would take the data and produce
> a yes/no answer.  The program has to be such that even if the seller knows
> the program, he can't produce fake data which would fool the program.
> 
> Then the seller can commit to his data and produce a zero-knowledge
> proof that the committed data satisfies the criteria in the program.
> This can be done reasonably efficiently for moderate sized programs.
> It will leak no information about the data other than the yes/no answer
> from the program.

But BLD would still be able to cheat the seller, wouldn't they? The
account number might be valid but unfunded, or any variation on that.
I'm looking for a way for each party to be sure he gets what he wants,
with no trusted third party and no recourse to government.

-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From grocha at neutraldomain.org  Thu Oct  4 12:27:22 2001
From: grocha at neutraldomain.org (Gabriel Rocha)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 12:27:22 -0700
Subject: Islam
In-Reply-To: <3BBCB33D.CE3B06F4@lsil.com>; from mmotyka@lsil.com on Thu,
  Oct 04, 2001 at 12:06:37PM -0700
References: <3BBCB33D.CE3B06F4@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <20011004122722.B73315@neutraldomain.org>


,----[ On Thu, Oct 04, at 12:06PM, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: ]--------------
| Let's see, as far as the Taliban and probably other extremists are
| concerned, all of Islam is in a life and death battle against
| non-believers, non-Muslims, namely a bunch of atheist Americans. 

They would seem to be at war with any non-believers/non-muslims,
America and its foreign policy simply make it the most attractive target
for such war.

| The U.S., OTOH, is taking great pains to emphasize that we are not at
| war with Islam but rather with a relatively small group of extremists.

Well, it wouldn't go over well for a country whose very foundation was
based on the premise of freedom of [approved] religion. My take on it is
that in our infinite wisdom, we are not realizing that to make "war on
terrorism" and then going around saying that we should put all ragheads
in an internment camp is going to produce a negative sentiment within
muslim populations. Regardless of what the Government says, look at the
public reaction by and large. We arent going after the "freedom
fighters" of americam,  We dont read about the public clashes between
"concerned citizens" and any of the alledged terrorist groups within
this country. We do read about mosques being arsoned, mulsims being
beaten and so on...

| Somebody has the wrong picture.

who could have the right picture right now and share it and be believed?

--Gabe

-- 
"It's not brave, if you're not scared."




From piolenc at mozcom.com  Wed Oct  3 21:31:33 2001
From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 12:31:33 +0800
Subject: USG pulls 'sensitive' info off net
References: <3BBB14BD.5EDF8705@sarin.com> <20011003110004.A24438@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <3BBBE625.EB063E1A@mozcom.com>


Great! Who'll do it?

Marc de Piolenc

Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> Inevitable next step: Enterprising cypherpunk registers
> censoredfedinfo.org, hunts through google's cache, posts everything
> there, etc.

-- 
Remember September 11, 2001 but don't forget July 4, 1776

Rather than make war on the American people and their
liberties, ...Congress should be looking for ways
to empower them to protect themselves when
warranted.

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Thu Oct  4 09:42:28 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 12:42:28 -0400 
Subject: Nifty secret bank system
Message-ID: 


> Sandfort[SMTP:sandfort at mindspring.com] wrote:
> 
> 
> C'punks,
> 
> I ran into a western version of "hawala" about 15 years ago.  It was a
> "blocked currency" service offered by a financial group.  Here's how it
> worked:
> 
This type of thing is old - The Knights Templar set up a system by which 
a pilgrim could deposit money in his home country, and get a letter of
credit
which would enable him or her to draw on that at Templar preceptories 
across Europe and into the Holy Land (12th century). I wouldnt be
suprised if there were Roman or earlier versions as well.

> If you live in a currency-blocked country (South African was one, I think
> it
> still might be) you couldn't legally move more than a certain amount out
> money out of the country.  To get around this, you would be asked to tear
> a
> small denomination piece of paper money (e.g., a 1 rand note) in half.
> You
> would keep one half and the financial group would get the other half.
> Both
> halves of the bill would have the same serial number, of course.
> 
> Later, you would get a call telling you where to take the cash you wished
> to
> move out of the country.  At the appointed time and place an agent of the
> financial group would meet you.  To prove he was the right guy, he would
> present the group's half of the bill.  You would give him the money and
> the
> next day an equivalent amount would be on deposit in an account in your
> name
> in whatever country (and currency) you specified.  The fee for this was
> usually just the normal money changer's exchange rate.  Of course, the
> original cash never left South Africa, just as the cash in the hawala
> system
> never leaves the countries in question either.
> 
The split-bill technique has old roots.

http://www.slais.ubc.ca/news/slaisconference/miller.html

"By the thirteenth century in England, private dealers,
accountants and businessmen were using a royal financial
system of the twelfth century to commit their business
transactions to a physical medium.  Their motivation was
only to monitor and keep track of the multitude of
transactions with clients in order to protect their
self-interest.  Thirteenth-century English businessmen used
tally sticks to record a proof of payment for goods
purchased or to show the liability of one party to make
payments to another.  Tally sticks were made of hazel wood
and the transactions taking place would be recorded and
reflected by notches carved into the tally with a knife.
The names of the parties involved in the transaction were
recorded with ink beside the notches, usually in Hebrew,
Latin or French. Tallies have also been found to have seals
attached to them, which were most likely used to
authenticate the record.  The size and shape of the notches,
and therefore the terms of the transaction, would be
mutually agreed upon by both parties, at which time the
tally would be split down the middle.  The two halves could
then be brought together, like two pieces of a puzzle, to
attest to the actual occurrence of the transaction and to
protect against forgery (10).  The tally stick is a
bipartite record whereby both parties have a portion of the
record to keep for their own interest and for evidence
should they need to prove an obligation or right.

Medieval chirographs are also characterized by their
bipartite nature.  Chirographs recorded agreements and
transactions of many things including the exchanges of goods
and services for financial consideration.  The terms of the
contract are written out twice (once on either side of the
parchment) and one large title is then written across the
top of the parchment spanning both instances of the
contract.  The parchment was then split down the middle, so
each party could retain a record of the contract.  Like the
tally stick, the two pieces of parchment could be brought
together and if the title at the top of the parchment lined
up correctly, the contract was deemed authentic."
----------

[These tallysticks piled up in government archives, and
were kept long after no one could read them (the dead media
problem isn't new, either). In 1834 it was decided to dispose
of them by burning, but the fire got out of control and burned
down the Palace of Westminster]

More recently, in (I think) Philadelphia, people were able to
claim rewards for anonymous tips by sending in a torn sheet
of paper along with the tip. They could later pick up the cash 
from a designated bank by producing the other half, and showing
that the two matched. No ids where required.


> One more aside.  For a brief period when New Zealand was heavily
> socialist,
> the government wanted to stop people from traveling (and spending money)
> abroad.  Instead of banning travel, which would have caused a shit storm
> of
> controversy, thy just limited the amount of cash that could be taken out
> of
> the country to something like a few hundred bucks.  Of course, resourceful
> Kiwis just used their credit cards...
> 
Britain did this in the late 60's, with a 50 pound limit. It was widely
evaded.
Graham Greene features it in 'Travels with my aunt" (which I reccomend
highly).

>  S a n d y




From auto301094 at hushmail.com  Thu Oct  4 05:47:22 2001
From: auto301094 at hushmail.com (auto301094 at hushmail.com)
Date: Thu,  4 Oct 2001 12:47:22 +0000
Subject: RAND/Pentagon congressional advisory body to create subpanel on
  Civil Liberties
Message-ID: <200110041247.f94ClMj33981@mailserver1.hushmail.com>

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From unicorn at schloss.li  Thu Oct  4 12:48:14 2001
From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 12:48:14 -0700
Subject: Russian plane explodes before crashing into the black sea
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


Nah, terrorists don't typically mess with the Russians.  They are famous for
returning the testicles of terrorists to the families via post.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tolan Blundell
> Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 8:06 AM
> To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> Subject: Russian plane explodes before crashing into the black sea
>
>
> If this turns out to be a terrorist attack, which seems fairly likely, i
> imagine it could deal the idea of draconian security measures at
> airports a
> hefty blow, as Isreal has some of the toughest airport security in the
> world.
>
> http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/10/04/russia.plane.crash/index.html
>




From johndoe2 at mail.anonymizer.com  Thu Oct  4 10:51:34 2001
From: johndoe2 at mail.anonymizer.com (John Doe Number Two)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 12:51:34 -0500
Subject: WTC Photos
In-Reply-To: <318f3b29128f4e75c2d5428c1c991fef@mixmaster.nullify.org>
Message-ID: 


John was busy playing war tourist, and as any journalist who has covered a
conflict will tell you, war tourists are some of the lower forms of life one
can encounter.

Think pornographer with a flack jacket.

John shouldn't have been walking inside the crime scene.  The cops treated
him better than they should have.

JDII

> John seems to have experienced the same thing.  His memories are overlayed
> onto the photos, making them for him part of a larger reality.  But to
> a viewer, they are no different from what we have seen from the other
> news media.  They just show broken metal.  You can get the same thing
> at the local junkyard.
> 

"Insert the usual disclaimer here."

Key ID:  0x8EF048F5
4093 Bit DH/DSS
Fingerprint: CC8F 8D2C E1A3 6555 7438  B456 D00E A83C 8EF0 48F5




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Thu Oct  4 12:55:30 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 12:55:30 -0700
Subject: Islam
Message-ID: <3BBCBEB2.A13A2CE6@lsil.com>


Point is there is serious instability. Frankly I'm favorably surprised
at the administration's having avoided a precipitous demonstration.




From hakkin at sarin.com  Thu Oct  4 12:56:41 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 12:56:41 -0700
Subject: gargoyling the police site
Message-ID: <3BBCBEF9.AD69018B@sarin.com>


http://policeabuse.org/how.html

The PCC uses state-of-the-art technology to investigate
and document acts of misconduct by law enforcement
personnel. For example, we use digital video and
miniature cameras to investigate and analyze incidents
of police misconduct around the country. Using several
PC's we are a capable of processing as many as five
hundred complaints per day. We maintain a video log
of police incidents captured on tape throughout the
country.




From jya at pipeline.com  Thu Oct  4 12:58:21 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 12:58:21 -0700
Subject: WTC Photos
In-Reply-To: <318f3b29128f4e75c2d5428c1c991fef@mixmaster.nullify.org>
Message-ID: <200110041704.NAA27045@hall.mail.mindspring.net>


Yes, Incognito is correct. But what you need for experiencing
the real thing is this little bag of rainbows which Guiliani and
Pataki and Bush hand out to special visitors. I grabbed a bunch
of these grandiloquenizers from Red Cross which freely 
dispenses them to the cadaver bits mongerers.

The NY Times reports today how hard it is to get on the WTC
site if you are not a celebrity, a friend of the Mayor or Governor,
or a source of funds to rebuild the profanely sacred site. Not 
even the press can break the embargo, unless a press celeb.

The terrorism nuttiness extends to the American Institute of 
Architects who, the Times reports today, is issuing a warning 
to its members not to disclose building information. I don't
belong to that fruitcake-cartel which is about as courageous
as City and State and Federal officials when it comes to
guarding its nearly worthless information. AIA does only
what it takes to get its members jobs. I tried to do volunteer
work for the local AIA chapter surveying buildings around 
WTC, but later learned that its program is open only to 
members seeking paid work at the disaster. 

I was at the WTC site following a volunteer inspection of
a local terrified office renter who called the AIA for assistance 
and was given a list of expensive architects whose fees 
have jumped, and told no volunteers available. Word of
mouth got me. And I got to the WTC for excellent payment.




From schear at lvcm.com  Thu Oct  4 13:14:23 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 13:14:23 -0700
Subject: ZKS Shutdown
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20011004095128.034e20b0@idiom.com>
References: <5d175bdfd6756456a92c5c0941e3a137@dizum.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011004112745.04af1008@pop3.lvcm.com>


At 09:57 AM 10/4/2001 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
>It's on Slashdot.
>http://www.freedom.net/prem.html - shutdown warning
>http://www.freedom.net/support/article.html?article=410 - warning that
>         with fewer servers, your anonymity is less protected
>         from traffic analysis
>http://slashdot.org/articles/01/10/04/1526256.shtml - discussion

Did ZKS ever release their source code?  Might it be resurrected?

steve




From hakkin at sarin.com  Thu Oct  4 13:19:13 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 13:19:13 -0700
Subject: private US (chick!) groups using domestic surveillance tools
Message-ID: <3BBCC441.90FA2D4B@sarin.com>


The maker of police surveillance tools, OrionSci, lists a private group
"the feminist majority" as a purchaser of their "Investigations" tools.

http://psd.orionsci.com/Clients.asp


                                 Ramsey County Sheriff's Department
                                 St. Paul, Minnesota
                                 California Department of Justice (DOJ)
                                 Sacramento, California
                                 Hayward
                                 Hayward, California Investigations
                                 Broward County Sheriff's Office
                                 Fort Lauderdale, Florida
                                 Santa Monica Police Department
                                 Santa Monica, California
                 ***           Feminist Majority Foundation
                                 Alexandria, Virginia
                                 Kansas Bureua of Investigations
                                 Topeka, Kansas
                                 Santa Ana Police Department
                                 Santa Ana, California
                                 Denver Police Department
                                 Denver, Colorado


Orion's products :


                               GangNet.
                               Comprehensive analytic tool for tracking,
retrieving, and
                               analyzing crime information collected
about gangs,
                               individual gang members, locations,
associates, field
                               interviews, and vehicles relevant to a
gang member.

                               Investigations
                               A powerful relational database with
robust parameter
                               searches. Cross reference narcotics,
street gangs, criminal
                               groups, pedophiles, missing persons, etc.
Photo lineups,
                               mug books & multi-media capable.
Investigations is
                               layered and compartmentalized for
security.

                               Investigations III+
                               The next generation in investigation and
analytical tools.
                               This high performance system combines the
power of
                               GangNet, Investigations, and Spotlight
into one
                               comprehensive package.

                               Orion Magic
                               Provides the ability to conduct text
searches across files,
                               documents, Web pages, and databases
located anywhere
                               on your personal computer, network, or
Internet.
                               ORIONMagic is not just a search tool,;
it also includes
                               analytical tools to enable you to
evaluate the results of
                               searches.

                               Spotlight
                               Unstructured text-based searching. Search
multiple
                               databases: electronic documents,
scan/OCR, word
                               processing files, newswires, Internet,
open source, SGML,
                               HTML, etc. Index and add text documents
to your
                               investigative case file.

                               H.A.T.E.
                               Hate-crime Analysis, Tracking and
Evaluation System
                               serves as a browser-based investigative
tools as well as a
                               statistical resource for analyzing bias
crimes motivated by
                               race, nationality, religion, sexual
orientation, gender, or
                               disability.

                               HiTech Crime
                               Intelligence system for tracking HiTech
Crimes. Tracking of
                               any incidents using technology including
cyber terrorism,
                               child pornography, identity theft, fraud,
etc. Parameter &
                               free-form searches. Link analysis,
routine and adhoc
                               reports.

                               JuviNet
                               Separate system for collecting
information on juvenile
                               offenders. Ability to track all
information on juveniles while
                               they are in custody and under the care of
a state ward
                               system.

                               RMS/CMS
                               Records Management System/Case Management
System.
                               Electronic capture of all investigative
reports, text,
                               images, video, audio and forensic data.
Local creation of
                               the documents, reports and case files to
advance
                               investigations and analytic activities.
Case Management
                               System to centralize all related
documents and
                               information in the case file. Report
workflow management
                               system from incident creation to
post-adjudication
                               archive.

                               NarcNet
                               Narcotics tracking utilizing web based
technology.
                               Intelligence system modeled after
GangNet. for tracking
                               cases, incidents, subject and narcotics
related
                               information. Information about drug
seizures (type,
                               purity, value, concealment location) and
currency seizures
                               are also collected for analysis.
Automated multilevel link
                               analysis, text lookup and matrix search
capability.




From jf_avon at freedom.net  Thu Oct  4 13:27:29 2001
From: jf_avon at freedom.net (jf_avon at freedom.net)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 13:27:29 -0700
Subject: Fwd: Important Announcement from Zero-Knowledge Systems
Message-ID: <200110041726.f94HQJo12668@ak47.algebra.com>



==================BEGIN FORWARDED MESSAGE==================
>Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 09:55:05 -0400
>From: store at zeroknowledge.com
>Subject: Important Announcement from Zero-Knowledge Systems



Dear Freedom Premium Services Customer,

Zero-Knowledge is introducing Freedom Privacy & Security Tools 3.0, the next generation of its online security software for consumers. 
This new software includes a personal firewall, form filler/password manager, ad manager, cookie manager and keyword alert. As a 
result, we are focusing our main development efforts on this product as well as other software solutions providing online security.

As such, I regret to inform you that Freedom Premium Services - Anonymous Web Browsing and Private Encrypted Email - will be 
discontinued as of October 22nd, 2001. 

This decision was not taken lightly. It reflects the ongoing high cost and limited returns of operating the Freedom Network - the engine 
that drives the encryption and anonymity process. This is especially true since our customers and partners increasingly choose to 
purchase ready-to-use solutions that provide security and safety online - such as personal firewall, password manager and keyword 
alert - rather than nym-based services. 

For the past two years we have worked very hard to develop and maintain a sustainable private network and we thank you for all your 
support of our endeavor.. We share your disappointment and we apologize for the impact this decision will have on your online 
activities. 

For detailed information regarding the process we will be implementing to shutdown the Freedom Network, please visit us at 
www.freedom.net/prem.html. This link contains important and critical information pertaining to your e-mail accounts as well as our 
special refund policy. We strongly recommend that you visit the above link.

Freedom Network shutdown overview:
A partial network shutdown will occur on Thursday, October 11th, 2001:
 	Freedom nym mailboxes will not accept any more incoming mail as of October 11th, 2001.
 	You will still be able to retrieve mail sent to your nym mailboxes prior to October 11th, but only until October 22nd, 2001.
 	You will however be able to send mail and browse anonymously until October 22nd, 2001.
A complete network shutdown will occur on Monday, October 22nd, 2001:
 	All the Freedom servers will be taken offline.  
 	You will no longer be able to browse anonymously or, send and receive nym mail.


The complete Freedom Network shutdown process and timetable is available at www.freedom.net/prem.html.

Refund Policy overview:
Effective immediately, Zero-Knowledge will be accepting refund requests until November 22nd, 2001.
All users who have purchased Freedom Premium Services as of January 1st, 2001 and later are eligible for a full or partial refund or a 
free copy of Freedom Privacy & Security Tools 3.0.

The complete Refund Policy and detailed eligibility information is available at www.freedom.net/prem.html.

Please send all refund requests to store at zeroknowledge.com. Use your regular email to ensure timely follow up from customer 
service. Please do not send us emails using your nyms to avoid any delays in getting help. Freedom nym mailboxes will not accept any 
incoming mail as of October 11th, 2001. 


We deeply regret that we are unable to maintain the Freedom Network and we wish to thank you for custom and for your understanding 
of this difficult decision we had to make.

Sincerely,

Hamnett Hill
EVP, COO


PS: We apologize for the fact that you may be receiving multiple copies of this email. Since we are unable to make a correlation 
between your real identity/true email address and your nyms, this email was sent to every active nym on the Freedom Network. 





===================END FORWARDED MESSAGE===================









From schear at lvcm.com  Thu Oct  4 13:37:07 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 13:37:07 -0700
Subject: ZKS Shutdown
In-Reply-To: 
References: <5.0.2.1.1.20011004095128.034e20b0@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011004132338.04ad8bd0@pop3.lvcm.com>


At 11:50 AM 10/4/2001 -0700, you wrote:
>I just saw Ian Goldberg's latest message on this. Here's most of it:
>
>Re:Ian Goldberg, Bruce Schneier & Whitfield Di (Score:1)
>by Ian Goldberg on Thursday October 04, @01:38PM (#2388977)
>(User #526438 Info | http://slashdot.org/)
>Believe me, no one is more disappointed about this than I am, but right
>now there simply isn't enough market buy-in on the premium services to
>justify the network's operating costs. :-(



>Our research team is continuing work in the area of privacy enhanced
>network protocols, and we are open to any suggestions the research
>community offers on how we can leverage the work that went into the
>Freedom Network design and operation to advance this area of computer
>science. If you have suggestions or interest in this, please contact us
>at corporate at zeroknowledge.com [mailto].

Seems like the Ghost of Ecash Past claims another victim.  I'm sure Bob 
Hettinga will soon latch on to this one as another reason why a good 
venture failed.  I wonder if Hush is next.

As discussed on this list recently there is a keen need for anonymizing 
(a'la Crowds) to be added to a popular P2P service.  Has the Crowds source 
been published/leaked?

steve




From measl at mfn.org  Thu Oct  4 11:40:04 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 13:40:04 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: WTC Photos
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 4 Oct 2001, John Doe Number Two wrote:

> John was busy playing war tourist, and as any journalist who has covered a
> conflict will tell you, war tourists are some of the lower forms of life one
> can encounter.
> 
> Think pornographer with a flack jacket.
> 
> John shouldn't have been walking inside the crime scene.  The cops treated
> him better than they should have.
> 
> JDII

Please don't feed the trolls...

--
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From jya at pipeline.com  Thu Oct  4 14:13:03 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 14:13:03 -0700
Subject: WTC Photos
In-Reply-To: 
References: <318f3b29128f4e75c2d5428c1c991fef@mixmaster.nullify.org>
Message-ID: <200110041819.OAA20920@hall.mail.mindspring.net>


Now we shouldn't overvalorized those working the crime scene.
This is not a war site by any stretch, it's a disaster site and
nobody is getting shot at or threatened by hundreds of officers
and military standing around with their thumbs up. The spin on
this racket does remind of war mongerers, so that is much is
true, but the pornography is by the pols and mongerers.

There are hard workers on the site, doing dirty dangerous 
work, but not most of the squeaky cleans, saluting one another,
discussing when to take a break, swapping tales of pussy
and liquor, angling for the attention of any camera in sight,
kissing superiors' asses.

The site is way over staffed and equipped, with much of
the staff and stuff unused, again like a war where only
a tiny majority ever risk shit. War stories are pornographic
lies no matter who tells them, and the best lies are told
by police and the military.

Hats off to the few hard workers I saw at WTC, a big Bronx
cheer to the 90% on the site who were there for racking up
points and lurid tales to tell the rubes on- and off-site.

Speaking from one jerk's experience, the officers and soldiers
seemed relieved to have me to deal with. Not much, but better
than hosting the gaggle of celebrities who look through them
until the photo crew are set up, then profuse thanks, then
lights out and off to the limo.

I think the reason Smokey deleted my photos is because I
took no pix of the spic and span uniformed idlers. Shit, I heard
a group of cops discussing what kind of groovy hardhat to
wear, what kind of flags to costume in. Paratroopers halting
a cute female officer, raining her with a bevy of different 
salutes until she rushed away red-faced.

Even so, I thanked every officer I dealt with for their
sacrifices. No bullshit, having been a soldier the terror
comes in a instant, and waiting for years doing nothing doesn't 
make it less so. Waiting for hell to break is what these folks
do for a living. And I appreciate that protection. It is easy
for me not to insult them in the NYC daily economic war 
zone.

Still, I don't want them insulting me, telling me what a
piece of shit I am. Think about it, Joe, what you hiding.




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Thu Oct  4 14:24:54 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 14:24:54 -0700
Subject: RAND/Pentagon congressional advisory body to create
  subpanel on Civil Liberties
Message-ID: <3BBCD3A6.EDB1926E@lsil.com>


Wonderful news, unless they're just rubber stamp jockeys.

"Quitcher Bitchin the CL panel says it's OK."




From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Thu Oct  4 15:38:58 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 15:38:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: American Death Squads
Message-ID: <200110042238.f94Mcwn11670@artifact.psychedelic.net>


Barry McCaffrey, former Drug Czar, making an approved leak on how the US
plans to deal with sub-national groups, their friends, and their
supporters.

It's not nice to taunt Happy-Fun-Superpower.

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/10/03/ret.mccaffrey.war.plan/

-----

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Retired Army Gen. Barry McCaffrey, who was drug czar
during President Clinton's second term, said in an online exchange last
month that those against the United States in its war on terrorism would
"be killed suddenly, in significant numbers and without warning."

...
   
"We are going to disrupt these people through preemptive attack ... we
will deceive them, we will run psyops on them, at selected points and
times they will be killed suddenly, in significant numbers, and without
warning."
   
"Tomahawk missiles, 2000 pound laser guided weapons dropped from B2's or
F22's at very high altitude, remote control, booby traps, blackmail and at
places, small groups of soldiers or SEALs will appear in total darkness,
blow down the doors and kill them at close range with automatic weapons
and hand grenades"

...

A U.S. military official who was shown McCaffrey's comments said they were
the "insights of a very smart guy."
   
Another official said they do not contain any national secrets, but they
do accurately reflect the strategy the United States has adopted.
   
In the words of this official: "It's the plan."

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From iang at abraham.cs.berkeley.edu  Thu Oct  4 08:55:59 2001
From: iang at abraham.cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: 4 Oct 2001 15:55:59 GMT
Subject: Peer to Peer Newscasting: Morpheus
References: <3BBC7A46.66F8805C@acm.org>
Message-ID: <9pi0qf$eo8$1@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>


In article <3BBC7A46.66F8805C at acm.org>,
Optimizzin Al-gorithm   wrote:
>\begin{cynical}
>This could just be Morpheus folks (ie Music City Inc) trying to document
>"legit"
>"public-good" filesharing uses so as to deter RIAA, MPAA types.
>\end{cynical}

I don't think that's cynical at all; it's pretty clearly exactly what
they're doing.

   - Ian




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Thu Oct  4 12:56:26 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 15:56:26 -0400 
Subject: Russian plane explodes before crashing into the black sea
Message-ID: 


> Black Unicorn[SMTP:unicorn at schloss.li] wrote:
> 
> Nah, terrorists don't typically mess with the Russians.  They are famous
> for
> returning the testicles of terrorists to the families via post.
> 
> > From: Tolan Blundell
> > If this turns out to be a terrorist attack, which seems fairly likely, i
> > imagine it could deal the idea of draconian security measures at
> > airports a hefty blow, as Isreal has some of the toughest airport 
	> security in the world.
> > http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/10/04/russia.plane.crash/index.html
> 
Said 'nads may already be on the bottom of the Black Sea. Willing-to-suicide
terrorists change the security equations in many ways.

Peter Trei





From tolan at citipages.net  Thu Oct  4 08:06:12 2001
From: tolan at citipages.net (Tolan Blundell)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 16:06:12 +0100
Subject: Russian plane explodes before crashing into the black sea
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


If this turns out to be a terrorist attack, which seems fairly likely, i
imagine it could deal the idea of draconian security measures at airports a
hefty blow, as Isreal has some of the toughest airport security in the
world.

http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/10/04/russia.plane.crash/index.html




From Results at TVEyes.com  Thu Oct  4 13:32:49 2001
From: Results at TVEyes.com (Results at TVEyes.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 16:32:49 -0400 
Subject: crypto
Message-ID: <59EBFD05352BD411B71600D0B74739D101ECA5B2@maileyes.tveyes.com>


Your keyword(s), crypto, was recently spoken on CSPAN during House of
Representatives.

Thursday, Oct 4 2001 at 04:32 PM

......serious environmental problems if you don t believe that  ask the
people in milwaukee wisconsin  where 100 people died of crypto spirillum
because of annual waste ......

For details, visit
http://www.TVEyes.com/database/expand.asp?ln=3622152&Key=crypto

 
Just follow the above link to keep your account active for this keyword. 
For total control of your keywords, go to
http://www.tveyes.com/log_in.asp

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every room will have high-speed internet service powered by AT&T.  This
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From Results at TVEyes.com  Thu Oct  4 13:51:02 2001
From: Results at TVEyes.com (Results at TVEyes.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 16:51:02 -0400 
Subject: Your request
Message-ID: <59EBFD05352BD411B71600D0B74739D101ECA5DA@maileyes.tveyes.com>


You do not yet have a TVEyes.com password for this email address.

Go to http://www.tveyes.com and click on 'Modify Keyword List' to add a
password.




From honig at sprynet.com  Thu Oct  4 16:56:31 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 16:56:31 -0700
Subject: Who wants to be a millionaire
In-Reply-To: <6795b34a80c93135b0237c5dbde2acc9@dizum.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011004165631.0095d450@pop.sprynet.com>


At 06:10 PM 10/4/01 +0200, Nomen Nescio wrote:
>
>It would be necessary to reduce the criteria used by the purchaser into
>algorithmic form.  Write a program which would take the data and produce
>a yes/no answer. 

I don't think this is possible --the inputs (e.g., scan
newsfeeds for "bin Laden" and "funeral"; or require
a weekly warm-biometric check from the dude) could always be spoofed.

 The program has to be such that even if the seller knows
>the program, he can't produce fake data which would fool the program.

I don't see how this is possible; some set of inputs must trigger
a payoff.




From honig at sprynet.com  Thu Oct  4 16:59:36 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 16:59:36 -0700
Subject: Nifty secret bank system
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011004165936.00958620@pop.sprynet.com>


At 12:42 PM 10/4/01 -0400, Trei, Peter wrote:
>
>[These tallysticks piled up in government archives, and
>were kept long after no one could read them (the dead media
>problem isn't new, either). In 1834 it was decided to dispose
>of them by burning, but the fire got out of control and burned
>down the Palace of Westminster]
>

That is the funniest thing I have heard today.  

CD's give off toxic fumes if you burn them.




From xeni at xeni.net  Thu Oct  4 17:02:33 2001
From: xeni at xeni.net (Xeni Jardin)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 17:02:33 -0700
Subject: details on UK arrest of Jihad-trainer who promoted courses
  online ("Sakina Security")
Message-ID: 


In a round-up story on allied military planning timeline & recent
European terror-related arrests, AP just published this update on the
arrest of one of the instructors affiliated with the now-shuttered
website for Sakina Security Ltd.:

"Elsewhere in Europe, judicial and police authorities continued to
hunt for terrorist suspects. In London, police charged Sulayman Balal
Zainulabidin under sections of the Terrorism Act that cover weapons
training for terrorist purposes and recruitment for training, but
declined to say whether his arrest was tied to the Sept. 11 attacks.

The 43-year-old chef was apprehended on Monday and Scotland Yard said he
was scheduled to appear at a magistrates' court on Friday.

Reports in newspapers including The Guardian and The Independent have
said Zainulabidin was suspected of involvement with Sakina Security
Ltd., a London security firm believed to have providing arms training to
young extremists.

Scotland Yard would not comment on that reported link and the company is
not listed in the London telephone directory. "

--XJ

----------------

U.S. May Take Time Planning Attack
Audio/Video
  U.S. Gathering Allies For Attack (Reuters)

Thursday October 4 3:33 PM ET
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011004/wl/attacks_europe_2.html

By EMMANUEL GEORGES-PICOT, Associated Press Writer

PARIS (AP) - U.S. military retaliation following last month's terrorist
attacks on Washington and New York isn't likely for several weeks,
France's defense minister said Thursday.

Defense Minister Alain Richard said many key decisions by nations
participating in the U.S. anti-terrorism campaign had not yet been made
and should not be made in haste.

German Defense Minister Rudolf Scharping was quoted Thursday as saying
that German troops may soon be involved in reconnaissance in an
anti-terror campaign and could also be called up for ``classic''
military operations.

``German soldiers serve, for example, in NATO (news - web sites)'s
so-called integrated operations - on board AWACS aircraft or ships,''
Scharping said in an interview with the mass-circulation Bild daily. The
defense ministry confirmed the remarks but added no details.

Scharping said Germany's contribution ``may include also classic
military capabilities'' as part of a long-term fight against terror.

``We mustn't only look to Afghanistan (news - web sites), which
correctly stands in the center at the moment,'' he was quoted as saying.

On Thursday, the 18 NATO allies approved U.S. requests for specific
military contributions in the campaign against terrorism, NATO
Secretary-General Lord Robertson said.

The NATO move came after Washington offered evidence of Osama bin Laden
(news - web sites)'s involvement in the New York and Washington attacks.

Some of that evidence was detailed publicly for the first time by Prime
Minister Tony Blair (news - web sites) in London on Thursday.

Blair told parliament that three of the hijackers have been ``positively
identified'' as bin Laden associates and that one of them was involved
in the 1998 attacks on the U.S. embassies in East Africa and last year's
attack on the U.S.S. Cole.

``We are now approaching the difficult time when action is taken. It
will be difficult, there are no easy options,'' Blair told lawmakers.

But in Paris, the french defense minister said action was not likely to
take place for ``several weeks.''

``The decisions to take action haven't been made,'' Richard said.
``Everyone is going to prepare their own means that will be well-adapted
for a joint effort. We aren't at the end of that.''

France has made its ports available to American warships and sent an
ultramodern frigate and a fuel and supply ship to the Arabian Sea for
use by the U.S. naval fleet gathering in the area.

Cyprus also announced it had given the United States permission to use
airports and airspace for its war on terrorism, availing U.S. forces of
a potentially helpful stopping-off point in the Mediterranean.

Elsewhere in Europe, judicial and police authorities continued to hunt
for terrorist suspects.

In London, police charged Sulayman Balal Zainulabidin under sections of
the Terrorism Act that cover weapons training for terrorist purposes and
recruitment for training, but declined to say whether his arrest was
tied to the Sept. 11 attacks.

The 43-year-old chef was apprehended on Monday and Scotland Yard said he
was scheduled to appear at a magistrates' court on Friday.

Reports in newspapers including The Guardian and The Independent have
said Zainulabidin was suspected of involvement with Sakina Security
Ltd., a London security firm believed to have providing arms training to
young extremists.

Scotland Yard would not comment on that reported link and the company is
not listed in the London telephone directory.

In Germany Thursday, a court in Wiesbaden allowed investigators to
obtain data from five Internet service providers used by a suspected
terrorist for radical Islamist Web sites. Court spokesman Juergen Fehr
said the servers were used by a Turkish suspect arrested last week in
Wiesbaden on suspicion of plotting terrorist attacks in Germany.




From oa at acm.org  Thu Oct  4 17:04:13 2001
From: oa at acm.org (Optimizzin Al-gorithm)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 17:04:13 -0700
Subject: pornographer with a flack jacket
Message-ID: <3BBCF8F3.817E3DAE@acm.org>


At 12:51 PM 10/4/01 -0500, John Doe Number Two wrote:
>John was busy playing war tourist, and as any journalist who has
covered a
>conflict will tell you, war tourists are some of the lower forms of
life one
>can encounter.
>
>Think pornographer with a flack jacket.

Ok, Sandy crossed with Lucky.  What's your point?




From xeni at xeni.net  Thu Oct  4 17:11:04 2001
From: xeni at xeni.net (Xeni Jardin)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 17:11:04 -0700
Subject: Jihad-training site: apparently, UK police closed it, arrested
  instructor.
Message-ID: 


None of the wire stories I saw before this 8AM Reuters piece today
(below) indicated clearly who shut the site down, or specified that the
site closure occurred in conjunction with the instructor's arrest and
detention. The later AP story dated 3:33 today further specifies that
the arrested instructor is one London resident by the name of Sulayman
Balal Zainulabidin. --XJ

-----Original Message-----



UK Shuts Down 'Ultimate Jihad Experience' on Web
October 4, 2001 7:59 am EST
url (will wrap)< http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011004/wr/
attack_britain_jihad_dc_1.html >

UK Shuts Down 'Ultimate Jihad Experience' on Web
By Karen Matusic

LONDON (Reuters) - A Web site offering young Muslims the chance to learn
all about explosives and the ``art of bone breaking'' was shut down this
week under a new British crackdown on Islamic extremists.

Police sources told Reuters Thursday that the closure of the
London-based Sakina Securities Web site (www.sakina.fsbusiness.co.uk)
followed the arrest Monday of one of its instructors on terrorism
charges.

The 43-year-old alleged Sakina instructor -- police refuse to name
him -- is one of two men being held on terrorism charges in Britain as
it tightens the net on militants.

Britain's clampdown follows the September 11 hijack attacks on the
United States. Some of the 19 alleged hijackers are said to have passed
through Britain in the months before the attacks.

Sakina, which bills itself as an international security firm, claims to
have sent fighters to Afghanistan (news - web sites) and Chechnya
(news - web sites).

The Web site said Sakina ``prides itself on high-risk jobs in the former
Soviet Union and in the civil war arenas of the world'' and prepared
Muslims to ``defend themselves'' by training them in self-defense and
outdoor survival strategies.

``Islam is not an aggressive belief but we have the right and the
obligation to defend ourselves,'' founder Mohammed Jameel told Reuters
in 1999. ``We are not going to escalate violence because we're
restricted in what we do by Islamic law.''

Virtual violence was another matter.

Describing its course as the ``ultimate jihad experience,'' the site
offered participants the chance to shoot off 3,000 live rounds at a U.S.
firing range, ``improvise explosive devices'' or learn all about bone
crushing.

Jameel was not available for comment Thursday. No one answered the phone
at Sakina's London office.

CRACKDOWN

The shutdown is the latest sign of a clampdown on militancy in Britain,
long criticized as a haven for Islamic extremists.

Along with the Sakina instructor, police have detained Algerian pilot
Lotfi Raissi, who is accused by the FBI (news - web sites) of teaching
the hijackers to fly the planes which crashed into U.S. landmarks last
month.

Raissi, due to appear in a London court Friday, is expected to be
questioned soon by FBI agents in Britain.

Another Algerian, arrested in central England in connection with planned
terror attacks in France and Belgium, was extradited to France last
week.

All those arrested were charged under new anti-terrorism laws that came
into effect in February, making it an offence to incite anyone to commit
an act of terrorism, including murder, or to support anyone who
committed a terrorism act.

A suspect in an alleged plot to blow up the U.S. embassy in Paris told
French investigators he recruited several militants at British mosques.

Britain has stepped up its monitoring of the activities of outspoken
self-styled Islamic clerics like Syrian-born Sheikh Omar Barki Mohammed
who issued a fatwa, or religious edict, ordering the death of Pakistani
President Pervez Musharraf.

Musharraf has supported the United States in its campaign to force
Afghanistan's Taliban rulers to hand over Osama bin Laden (news - web
sites), Washington's prime suspect in last month's attacks.




From oa at acm.org  Thu Oct  4 17:12:15 2001
From: oa at acm.org (Optimizzin Al-gorithm)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 17:12:15 -0700
Subject: The Martyrdom Videogame
Message-ID: <3BBCFADE.38231DC8@acm.org>


At 12:06 PM 10/4/01 -0700, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote:
>Let's see, as far as the Taliban and probably other extremists are
>concerned, all of Islam is in a life and death battle against
>non-believers, non-Muslims, namely a bunch of atheist Americans.
>
>The U.S., OTOH, is taking great pains to emphasize that we are not at
>war with Islam but rather with a relatively small group of extremists.

Because the US loses if it takes on all the misogynistic camelfuckers.
Gas prices would
double at least.

>Somebody has the wrong picture.

Christians need to start cultivating a martyrdom culture/generation.
Maybe a videogame
where you win by blowing yourself up and taking out a lot of
drugdealers^H^H^H^Hmoslems^H^H^H^Hwhatever the fuck the bogeymen du jour
are.
Much more intense than tossing cruise missiles from afar.




From oa at acm.org  Thu Oct  4 17:14:12 2001
From: oa at acm.org (Optimizzin Al-gorithm)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 17:14:12 -0700
Subject: To Jim Bell et al, from Chas Vest of MIT, re Martyr Airlines
Message-ID: <3BBCFB53.3C730628@acm.org>


To the Alumnae and Alumni of MIT:

Our society has been shaken by events that had been beyond our
imagining. September 11, 2001 will stand as a generation-defining and
world-changing moment in our collective history and our personal lives.
For those of you who have been directly touched by this tragedy, I offer
my deepest sympathy.

Here on campus we have worked hard to ensure that our near-term response
is one of thoughtful discussion and reflection. Looking beyond the
campus, the Provost and I are in the process of establishing a process
to assess how MIT might contribute its expertise to the challenge of
protecting human life and the nation's infrastructure.

I would like to give you a sense of MITs campus life during this period
and how we have responded to the crisis. First, however, I want to
acknowledge that the funding appeal that most of you received recently
must have seemed like an inappropriate first communication after the
attack on our nation. These letters had been put into the mail system
before September 11.

As of October 2, the Alumni Association has received notice that seven
of your alumni friends and classmates have been confirmed as victims of
the terrorist attacks. Unfortunately, there are other alumni who are
still listed as missing, and our hearts go out to those families waiting
for word about their loved ones. If you are from one of the affected
areas and wish to let the MIT community know that you are safe, please
post a message on the Are You Okay? bulletin board at
http://alumweb.mit.edu/are-you-ok/.

It is during tragedies like this that we are reminded that our strength
lies in our sense of community. Please know that as MIT alumni, you are
part of a global network of support. It was heartening this past weekend
to see more than 300 alumni return to campus to participate in the
Alumni Leadership Conference, coming together to support each other and
the Institute at this difficult time. I am most grateful for your
commitment to and faith in all that is good about MIT.

The events of the past two weeks have tested us all. I believe that the
faculty, students, staff, and alumni of MIT have demonstrated a
wonderful sense of caring for each other and a resolve to sustain the
best values that define this university and our society. Immediately and
in the days that followed, faculty, students and staff developed many
programs and activities to help people understand and cope with the
crisis and its aftermath. These included keeping the chapel open and
attended at all hours; deans and counselors reaching out to students
across campus; vigils and prayer services; community gatherings and
discussion groups; creation of memorial spaces; blood drives and other
contributions to relief efforts; educational forums on campus and
online; and individual faculty and staff getting together with their
students, sometimes to discuss the crisis, sometimes to do something
entirely different, like a trip to the art museum.

To find out more about what has been happening on campus, please go to
http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/www/. Or read some reflections from the
MIT community about the events of September 11 at
http://web.mit.edu/cms/reconstructions/.

The past two weeks have not been without their tensions. Anxiety and
anger have followed the shock and we face a time of great uncertainty.
In these times especially, members of our community who are Muslim or
from Middle Eastern or other backgrounds need our reassurance as a
community that this occasion will not undermine our commitment to
respect, learn from and support each other. Looking ahead, I am
confident that we will sustain our vibrant sense of community throughout
the weeks and months ahead.

With best wishes,

Sincerely yours,

Charles M. Vest




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Thu Oct  4 17:36:05 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 17:36:05 -0700
Subject: Dealing with Islamic terrorists, and with Afghanistan
Message-ID: <3BBD0075.4457F2D6@lsil.com>


Steve Furlong  wrote :
>
>mmotyka at lsil.com wrote:
>> 
>> Let's see, as far as the Taliban and probably other extremists are
>> concerned, all of Islam is in a life and death battle against
>> non-believers, non-Muslims, namely a bunch of atheist Americans.
>> 
>> The U.S., OTOH, is taking great pains to emphasize that we are not at
>> war with Islam but rather with a relatively small group of extremists.
>
>Here's tidbit regarding the handling of Muslim terrorists: in 1911,
>General "Blackjack" Pershing was dealing with terrorists in the
>Philippines. He caught a handful of them, made them dig their own
>graves, tied them to stakes near the graves, and brought up a bunch of
>pigs. He told them that the pigs would be slaughtered along with the
>terrorists, and they'd be buried together, thus not only denying them
>the benefits of heaven but sending them straight to hell forever. He let
>one of the terrorists "escape" to spread the word. There was no problem
>with terrorists the rest of the time Pershing was there. The question
>is, why shouldn't we do something like that now? It's obvious a
>significant part of the Moslem world will never love the US, so we
>should make sure they fear us instead. (Wes Pruden mentioned this in his
>Washington Times column recently. I haven't found it elsewhere on the
>Web, but have seen it in print.)
>
I know the story. That was the Moro tribe, right? There was also a story
of a prisoner having been wrapped in a fresh pigskin and hanged.

Shortly after 911 I suggested that the US publicize video clips of its
forces dipping bullets in pig's blood and painting pigblood deathheads
on cruise missiles and preparing boxcar-sized piggery and slaughterhouse
runoff aerosol bombs. Rumors of pork-only meals in US prison camps. The
whole dying unclean thing...

It may or may not work - I don't know how serious these guys are about
their religion. Should the leaders be more worldly they might struggle
with their texts to devise a palatable philosophical out for their field
soldiers.

All in all it's a funny idea though.

Mike




From oa at acm.org  Thu Oct  4 17:38:32 2001
From: oa at acm.org (Optimizzin Al-gorithm)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 17:38:32 -0700
Subject: Dealing with Islamic terrorists, and with Afghanistan
Message-ID: <3BBD0108.829C8C2C@acm.org>


At 05:39 PM 10/4/01 -0400, Steve Furlong wrote:
>He caught a handful of them, made them dig their own
>graves, tied them to stakes near the graves, and brought up a bunch of
>pigs.

How many pigs can a cruise missile carry?

>We should be dropping care
>packages --- food, cheap radio receivers, some consumer goods, and
guns.
>MREs, a cheap radio, some knick-knacks, and a stamped single-shot .45

Think STEN.




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Thu Oct  4 14:39:48 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 17:39:48 -0400
Subject: Dealing with Islamic terrorists, and with Afghanistan
References: <3BBCB33D.CE3B06F4@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <3BBCD724.CF87A2BE@acmenet.net>


mmotyka at lsil.com wrote:
> 
> Let's see, as far as the Taliban and probably other extremists are
> concerned, all of Islam is in a life and death battle against
> non-believers, non-Muslims, namely a bunch of atheist Americans.
> 
> The U.S., OTOH, is taking great pains to emphasize that we are not at
> war with Islam but rather with a relatively small group of extremists.

Here's tidbit regarding the handling of Muslim terrorists: in 1911,
General "Blackjack" Pershing was dealing with terrorists in the
Philippines. He caught a handful of them, made them dig their own
graves, tied them to stakes near the graves, and brought up a bunch of
pigs. He told them that the pigs would be slaughtered along with the
terrorists, and they'd be buried together, thus not only denying them
the benefits of heaven but sending them straight to hell forever. He let
one of the terrorists "escape" to spread the word. There was no problem
with terrorists the rest of the time Pershing was there. The question
is, why shouldn't we do something like that now? It's obvious a
significant part of the Moslem world will never love the US, so we
should make sure they fear us instead. (Wes Pruden mentioned this in his
Washington Times column recently. I haven't found it elsewhere on the
Web, but have seen it in print.)

Re attacking Afghanistan, I don't even see why we're talking about going
there in any kind of force, nor why there's talk of bombing it. We don't
have a quarrel with the mass of Afghanis, but with the Taliban. Most of
the Afghanis don't like the Taliban, either. We should be dropping care
packages --- food, cheap radio receivers, some consumer goods, and guns.
Drop so many packages that even if 3/4 of them are intercepted by
"official" forces, there'll still be plenty of guns in the hands of the
ordinary people. I did some back-of-the-envelope number crunching: Two
MREs, a cheap radio, some knick-knacks, and a stamped single-shot .45
(like the Liberators we dropped on Occupied France during WWII) should
cost around $20. Double that for delivery costs. (That latter is pure
guess-work; I have no idea what an Air Force air-drop over hostile
territory would cost.) We'd be able to drop 25,000,000 of these for a
billion dollars. That's much less than the cost of even a small ground
operation, and would be one per person in Afghanistan. And plenty of
cheap but reliable pistols should let, say, a group of oppressed,
beaten, and starving women kill a Taliban patrol and take their assault
rifles.

The consumer goods are just a finger in the eye for the reactionaries,
by the way. They're trying to keep the country in the 12th century, so
we should offend them by giving the people blue jeans, disposable
razors, science fiction paperbacks, anything we can to drive the Taliban
up the wall.


-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Thu Oct  4 17:42:20 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 17:42:20 -0700
Subject: The Martyrdom Videogame
Message-ID: <3BBD01EC.DEB1148A@lsil.com>


Optimizzin Al-gorithm  wrote :

> Christians need to start cultivating a 
> martyrdom culture/generation. Maybe a
> videogame where you win by blowing 
> yourself up and taking out a lot of
> drugdealers^H^H^H^Hmoslems^H^H^H^Hwhatever
> the fuck the bogeymen du jour are.
>
> Much more intense than tossing cruise missiles
> from afar.
>
Not as cowardly, eh? It would kill two birds with one stone. So to
speak. So far our domestic nutters seem more concerned with abortion
doctors and fur coats. Simply a matter of proper training I suppose. 

Mike




From hakkin at sarin.com  Thu Oct  4 17:53:17 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 17:53:17 -0700
Subject: private US (chick!) groups using domestic surveillance tools
Message-ID: <20011004175317.F7205@navel.introspect>


[Reformatted for legibility.  Please take the few moments required to
ensure your posts are readable.  KMSelf]

The maker of police surveillance tools, OrionSci, lists a private group
"the feminist majority" as a purchaser of their "Investigations" tools.

http://psd.orionsci.com/Clients.asp


    Ramsey County Sheriff's Department
    St. Paul, Minnesota
    California Department of Justice (DOJ)
    Sacramento, California
    Hayward
    Hayward, California Investigations
    Broward County Sheriff's Office
    Fort Lauderdale, Florida
    Santa Monica Police Department
    Santa Monica, California
    ***           Feminist Majority Foundation
    Alexandria, Virginia
    Kansas Bureua of Investigations
    Topeka, Kansas
    Santa Ana Police Department
    Santa Ana, California
    Denver Police Department
    Denver, Colorado


    Orion's products :


    GangNet.  Comprehensive analytic tool for tracking, retrieving, and
    analyzing crime information collected about gangs, individual gang
    members, locations, associates, field interviews, and vehicles
    relevant to a gang member.

    Investigations A powerful relational database with robust parameter
    searches. Cross reference narcotics, street gangs, criminal groups,
    pedophiles, missing persons, etc.  Photo lineups, mug books &
    multi-media capable.  Investigations is layered and
    compartmentalized for security.

    Investigations III+ The next generation in investigation and
    analytical tools.  This high performance system combines the power
    of GangNet, Investigations, and Spotlight into one comprehensive
    package.

    Orion Magic Provides the ability to conduct text searches across
    files, documents, Web pages, and databases located anywhere on your
    personal computer, network, or Internet.  ORIONMagic is not just a
    search tool,; it also includes analytical tools to enable you to
    evaluate the results of searches.

    Spotlight Unstructured text-based searching. Search multiple
    databases: electronic documents, scan/OCR, word processing files,
    newswires, Internet, open source, SGML, HTML, etc. Index and add
    text documents to your investigative case file.

    H.A.T.E.  Hate-crime Analysis, Tracking and Evaluation System serves
    as a browser-based investigative tools as well as a statistical
    resource for analyzing bias crimes motivated by race, nationality,
    religion, sexual orientation, gender, or disability.

    HiTech Crime Intelligence system for tracking HiTech Crimes.
    Tracking of any incidents using technology including cyber
    terrorism, child pornography, identity theft, fraud, etc. Parameter
    & free-form searches. Link analysis, routine and adhoc reports.

    JuviNet Separate system for collecting information on juvenile
    offenders. Ability to track all information on juveniles while they
    are in custody and under the care of a state ward system.

    RMS/CMS Records Management System/Case Management System.
    Electronic capture of all investigative reports, text, images,
    video, audio and forensic data.  Local creation of the documents,
    reports and case files to advance investigations and analytic
    activities.  Case Management System to centralize all related
    documents and information in the case file. Report workflow
    management system from incident creation to post-adjudication
    archive.

    NarcNet Narcotics tracking utilizing web based technology.
    Intelligence system modeled after GangNet. for tracking cases,
    incidents, subject and narcotics related information. Information
    about drug seizures (type, purity, value, concealment location) and
    currency seizures are also collected for analysis.  Automated
    multilevel link analysis, text lookup and matrix search capability.




From nobody at dizum.com  Thu Oct  4 09:10:08 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Thu,  4 Oct 2001 18:10:08 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Who wants to be a millionaire
Message-ID: <6795b34a80c93135b0237c5dbde2acc9@dizum.com>


> > Bin laden demolitions has authorised me to offer you a once in a lifetime deal.
> > 1million dollars untracable digital cash will be paid to an account/s of
> > your choice
> > for enough intelligence to proceed with further superpower implosions.
> > Insider info preffered but not essential,leave packet online in freenet
> > transient node...
>
> Is there any way to solve this transaction problem without a
> mutually-trusted third party?

It would be necessary to reduce the criteria used by the purchaser into
algorithmic form.  Write a program which would take the data and produce
a yes/no answer.  The program has to be such that even if the seller knows
the program, he can't produce fake data which would fool the program.

Then the seller can commit to his data and produce a zero-knowledge
proof that the committed data satisfies the criteria in the program.
This can be done reasonably efficiently for moderate sized programs.
It will leak no information about the data other than the yes/no answer
from the program.




From nobody at dizum.com  Thu Oct  4 09:20:04 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Thu,  4 Oct 2001 18:20:04 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: ZKS Shutdown
Message-ID: <5d175bdfd6756456a92c5c0941e3a137@dizum.com>


Zero-Knowledge Systems is reported to be shutting down their Freedom
network and product.  A letter has apparently been sent to subscribers
with the bad news.  Could someone please post a copy here?  Does it say
anything about the reasons?  Just lack of money, or something related
to 9/11?

The web sites have not been updated and are still hyping the new version
3.0 released just a few weeks ago.




From tolan at citipages.net  Thu Oct  4 10:28:00 2001
From: tolan at citipages.net (Tolan Blundell)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 18:28:00 +0100
Subject: ZKS Shutdown
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011004092731.00a38d90@bivens.parrhesia.com>
Message-ID: 


I used to use freedom, but i kept forgetting my passphrase..lame i know but
hey.

I was wondering if there are any open source projects that perform a similar
function (pseudonym based ip traffic anonymising, and remailing) out there?
I've had a look on google, but i can only find discussions on the theory of
this sort of stuff, rather than any working implementations.

Freedoms product was excellent (as far as i understood, im no security
expert ;) in many ways but the real reason i dumped it was that it was just
too slow on my old 400mhz pc with a 56k modem....

-Tolan

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at ssz.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at ssz.com]On
Behalf Of Greg Broiles
Sent: 04 October 2001 17:44
To: cypherpunks at lne.com
Subject: CDR: Re: ZKS Shutdown


At 06:20 PM 10/4/2001 +0200, Nomen Nescio wrote:

>Zero-Knowledge Systems is reported to be shutting down their Freedom
>network and product.  A letter has apparently been sent to subscribers
>with the bad news.  Could someone please post a copy here?  Does it say
>anything about the reasons?  Just lack of money, or something related
>to 9/11?
>
>The web sites have not been updated and are still hyping the new version
>3.0 released just a few weeks ago.

This message appeared on coderpunks a few days ago -

>Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 09:38:15 +0100
>From: Ben Laurie 
>To: David Wagner 
>Cc: coderpunks at toad.com
>Subject: Re: What are the main Problems of implementing a pipe-net?
>
>David Wagner wrote:
> >
> > Are you aware of the anonymous network that ZKS (Zero Knowledge Systems)
> > has set up?  It has many of the same features as Pipenet.  It does not
> > go to quite the same extremes for anonymity in the face of extremely
> > sophisticated attackers, but they seem to have picked a pretty darn good
> > point in the tradeoff space.  Technically, ZKS seems to be pretty
strong.
>
>They scrapped their affiliate program last week - so I guess that means
>bye-bye network.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Ben.
>
>--
>http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html
>
>"There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he
>doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff

... and I just got a press release from ZKS this morning trumpeting the
virtues of Freedom 3.0; sounds like maybe they're abandoning the network
and shifting their consumer-product focus to software alone. I looked at
their website after seeing Ben's message and was struck by how much they've
shifted away from selling service to consumers at $49 each, and are now
targeting businesses who are allegedly concerned about their customers'
alleged concern about privacy. They did appear to be willing to sell the
consumer software, but it clearly wasn't the focus of their business as
presented by the website.


--
Greg Broiles
gbroiles at well.com
"We have found and closed the thing you watch us with." -- New Delhi street
kids





From wolf at priori.net  Thu Oct  4 18:41:20 2001
From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 18:41:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: The Martyrdom Videogame
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Fri, 5 Oct 2001, Anonymous wrote:

> > Christians need to start cultivating a martyrdom
> > culture/generation. Maybe a videogame
> The christian God is a God of peace.
> Doesn't do any good in war, sorry try again.

Explain the Crusades.

Explain the Inquisition.

Islam's god is not a war god either. Much is done to contradict the
teachings of a given religion in the name of that same religion.


-MW-




From anonymous at remailer.havenco.com  Thu Oct  4 11:42:55 2001
From: anonymous at remailer.havenco.com (Anonymous User)
Date: Thu,  4 Oct 2001 18:42:55 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Soccer fan's life banishment for airplane impersonation
Message-ID: 


>"I wish he had run onto the park and done it in front of the players.
>He would then have been lifted and jailed then and that's what he
>deserves.

>"If they can punish the person, they should. It was pretty awful - how
>someone could stoop so low."

>"The guy is one sick puppy and needs to be taught a lesson."

>"[W]e don't want him or anybody with that kind of sick mind anywhere
>near the stadium. He has shamed the whole of Scottish football."

Looking around for someone to smite, Glasgow's Daily Record found a
soft target in one David Munro, who thought impersonating a plane in
front of an American player at a soccer match was a Good Thing.

Is the world going crazy?  Has the new offence of Griefcrime been
established, whereby those who do not temper their opinions to
respect mass 'hurt feelings' deserve exactly what's coming to them?

I'm guilty of Griefcrime too.  I haven't shed a single tear, because
I don't know anyone who has ever been to New York.

I've told the odd joke to close friends about the disasters.  I've
argued back at the TV when idiots talk about the need for unity, or
when a pundit pushes his bogus theory about the next target.
But am I free to question any of this in public, using my own name?
Or am I relegated to anonymous cowardice by a fear of the same 
character assassination at my trial by media?

As Scots say, these are interesting times.

--
"There are no thought crimes: only thought criminals."
Anon.


[ Begin forwarded message ]

Daily Record, Tuesday October 2, 2001


	SHAME ON YOU SON
	Celtic fan's Reyna taunt sickens his parents


EXCLUSIVE
By ALEX DOWDALLS and RON MOORE

THE moron who used the World Trade Centre tragedy to taunt Rangers'
Claudio Reyna is named and shamed today by the Daily Record. 

David "No Neck" Munro's stepdad said he should be jailed for mimicking
an aeroplane in front of the American star at Sunday's Old Firm game.
Mum Ann was close to tears as she branded the Celtic "fan" a disgrace.

Reyna said: "You wouldn't think something as sick as that would
come into someone's mind." 
And the Parkhead club banned Munro for life, telling him he had shamed
the whole of Scottish football. Munro jumped to his feet and stretched
his aims out like aeroplane wings as New Jersey-born Reyna 

	Celtic bosses take action over warped 
	supporter who gloated at terror

prepared to take a corner at Ibrox. He was one of the tiny minority in
the Celtic section who made the sick gesture. More than 6000 people
died in the attacks on the World Trade Centre. The Record was flooded
with calls from fans after we appealed for help to name the yob.

Supporters described Munro as a drunken idiot who also caused trouble
on a bus going to Celtic's game with Juventus. Our trail led to
Munro's mortified mum and stepdad in Johnstone, Renfrewshire. The
jobless lout still lives with his parents at the age of 32.

Mother Ann McKeeman choked back tears as she said: "I couldn't believe
what he did. He was so full of the drink and didn't know what he was
doing. He's a disgrace. David hasn't come home since and is too
ashamed to face us. He's staying at a pal's house.
Stepfather Bill added: "I wish he had run onto the park and done it
in front of the players. He would then have been lifted and jailed
then and that's what he deserves. 
"He has let us and the club down."

Ann said Munro has a spinal disability and had been taunted by Rangers
fans before his gesture towards Reyna. But she admitted there was no
excuse for his actions.
Reyna confirmed he saw the gesture. He said: "It's disgusting to think
about it because of how horrible the tragedy was. "I did honestly
think about it afterwards and I was surprised. 
"I thought that if anything Tragedy would teach people to unite and
not to act like that
"I wouldn't care even if he'd had a lot to drink. You wouldn't think
something as sick as that would come into someone's mind.
"If they can punish the person, they should. It was pretty awful - how
someone could stoop so low."

Celtic spokeswoman Kate Cunningham confirmed: "This person will be
banned with immediate effect and his season ticket will be withdrawn.
"He has brought immeasurable shame on this club and all of our
supporters. "Our fans are gutted by what he has done and we don't want
him or anybody with that. kind of sick mind anywhere near the stadium.
He has shamed the whole of Scottish football." 

Decent Celtic fans shared the club's outrage. One supporter who knows
Munro said: "The guys were almost fighting among themselves to try to
restrain him. "He is an out-and-out trouble-maker. Imagine if your
relatives had perished in America and you witnessed this total clown
pretending to crash a plane. 
"Fans from both clubs are up in arms. The guy is one sick puppy and
needs to be taught a lesson." The supporter said Munro was so drunk on
a fans' bus to Turin that other supporters feared for their safety. He
was finally thrown off the coach and went "absolutely mental", kicking
at the vehicle in a rage.
Another fan said Munro stole a bottle of champagne as the bus
travelled through France but was let off with a warning by police.
Munro is a notorious character in Johnstone, often seen drunk in local
pubs. Former schoolmates, who gave him the "No Neck" nickname, said he
was 'spoiled rotten" as a child. One claimed: "No Neck was wasted by
his mum and dad. "He never wanted for anything and always wore the
best designer gear. He was always acting the clown, boasting and
shouting, a right wee show-off.
"Yet he has nothing to shout about. He was an absolute failure.
"He never learned a thing and left without any qualifications. "The
guy has still not grown up - he's just a 32-year-old idiot without the
sense God gave him."

Munro has been in hiding since his photo appeared in the Record.
His mother said he had contacted Celtic to apologise and planned to
say sorry to Reyna in a letter.




From iang at abraham.cs.berkeley.edu  Thu Oct  4 11:44:39 2001
From: iang at abraham.cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: 4 Oct 2001 18:44:39 GMT
Subject: ZKS Shutdown
References: <5d175bdfd6756456a92c5c0941e3a137@dizum.com>
Message-ID: <9piamn$gkj$1@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>


In article <5d175bdfd6756456a92c5c0941e3a137 at dizum.com>,
Nomen Nescio   wrote:
>Zero-Knowledge Systems is reported to be shutting down their Freedom
>network and product.  A letter has apparently been sent to subscribers
>with the bad news.  Could someone please post a copy here?  Does it say
>anything about the reasons?  Just lack of money, or something related
>to 9/11?

Believe me, no one is more disappointed about this than I am, but right
now there simply isn't enough market buy-in on the premium services to
justify the network's operating costs. :-( 

As a business, we are focusing on the product that customers and
partners want. Here's an official Zero-Knowledge Systems statement on
the matter (note that this isn't the letter that was sent out; this is
something new):


    With the release of Freedom 3.0
    (http://www.zeroknowledge.com/media/pressrel.asp?rel=10042001) and
    the discontinuation of the Freedom Network (our anonymous browsing
    and encrypted pseudonym service) there have been a number of
    questions for more details about the decision to stop offering the
    Freedom Network services.  Hopefully this will help clarify things.

    When we released Freedom 1.0 close to 2 years ago we saw a
    significant percentage of our users subscribe to the premium Freedom
    Network services.  This was anticipated as our early adopters were
    very privacy and technology aware and had expressed strong interest
    in the Freedom Network offering.

    As we began to increase the distribution of Freedom into the mass
    market with the release of Freedom 2.0 & 2.2, we saw a
    disproportionately high percentage of users who subscribed to the
    standard features (and not Freedom Network services).    The initial
    interest in the premium (FN) services amongst our early adopters
    simply didn't carry over to the mainstream and as our user numbers
    grew, we began to realize that the market was looking for the kind
    of features we are now offering in Freedom 3.0.

    As we began our feature triage for Freedom 3.0 (almost 9 months ago)
    we heard from customers and focus groups of users, as well as
    channel partners (i.e.
    http://www.zeroknowledge.com/media/pressrel.asp?rel=08152001), and
    reflected on the statistics from our existing user base, and decided
    that there was not enough mass market demand for the premium
    services to justify continuing the service.

    This was entirely a market related decision.    The market demand
    for consumer Internet security and safety tools has grown
    considerably in the 4 years our company has been in business.
    Freedom 3.0 is a strong competitor to security offerings from
    companies such as Symantec and McAfee and we have gotten very
    positive market support and a warm reception from channel partners
    to this new version of our suite of privacy and security tools.

    There has been speculation that this decision was somehow related to
    government pressure or was made in the wake of the tragedies of
    September 11.   This is simply untrue.   For the past 3 months we
    have been beta-testing this version with partners, getting
    certification from Microsoft for our drivers and completing our
    Alpha and Beta cycles with our beta users.    Support for the
    Freedom network offering was removed from the client code base well
    before the recent tragedies of September 11.

    Our research team is continuing work in the area of privacy enhanced
    network protocols, and we are open to any suggestions the research
    community offers on how we can leverage the work that went into the
    Freedom Network design and operation to advance this area of
    computer science.    If you have suggestions or interest in this,
    please contact us at mailto:corporate at zeroknowledge.com

    Zero-Knowledge continues to offer our consumer protection utility
    Freedom 3.0 and we are very excited by the prospects for this
    product.  We also have a division that is addressing the market need
    of enterprise privacy technologies that stem from managing consumer
    data that require strong security and policy frameworks to adhere to
    privacy regulations and customer preference management (Healthcare;
    Financial and other consumer data that is subject to new security,
    privacy restrictions relating to legislation like HIPAA, GLB,
    PIPEDA, EU privacy directive).

    Our company continues to evolve and focus our efforts on market
    needs and customer demands and we remain very confident of our
    prospects in these markets.




From attila at hun.org  Thu Oct  4 11:54:59 2001
From: attila at hun.org (attila!)
Date: Thu,  4 Oct 2001 18:54:59 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: RANT: God save this great land from Tony Blair
Message-ID: <20011004185459.A305C3465A@hun.org>

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From wolf at priori.net  Thu Oct  4 20:26:16 2001
From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 20:26:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Taking advantage of diversions
Message-ID: 


A colleague in San Francisco just sent this to me after seeing it on the
evening news.

http://kxtv.com/news-story/October2001/100401/MARIJUANA-DECISION.htm

Federal agents seized all patient and client records from a doctor and a
lawyer who gave out medical marijuana licenses and legal advice,
respectively.

I wonder if this stunt would have been pulled in more peaceful times.
Public outcry will not be nearly as great as it would have been, simply
because we're distracted by other news.

Lovely.


-MW-




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From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 20:28:54 +0100
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Windows_XP_j=E1_dispon=EDvel...?=
Message-ID: <045e855281904a1WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com>

 
  

  



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From oa at acm.org  Thu Oct  4 20:38:14 2001
From: oa at acm.org (Optimizzin Al-gorithm)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 20:38:14 -0700
Subject: The Martyrdom Videogame
Message-ID: <3BBD2B26.63502954@acm.org>


At 02:39 AM 10/5/01 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
>> Christians need to start cultivating a martyrdom
>> culture/generation. Maybe a videogame
>The christian God is a God of peace.
>Doesn't do any good in war, sorry try again.

So is Allah, baby.  Everyone's deity is infinately
compassionate except for the infidels.  Scams, all.




From oa at acm.org  Thu Oct  4 20:50:16 2001
From: oa at acm.org (Optimizzin Al-gorithm)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 20:50:16 -0700
Subject: Dealing with Islamic terrorists, and with Afghanistan
Message-ID: <3BBD2DF8.3CCC1126@acm.org>


At 12:39 AM 10/5/01 -0000, Dr. Evil wrote:
>> It may or may not work - I don't know how serious these guys are
about
>> their religion. Should the leaders be more worldly they might
struggle
>> with their texts to devise a palatable philosophical out for their
field
>> soldiers.
>
>From what I can tell they don't take their religion seriously at all.

I think this is nearly as ludicrous as questioning the depth
of their delusions.

>First of all, Islam does not allow sucide attacks.

Right, and Jesus wouldn't have sniped a physician.

Secondly, I just
>read that these guys were habitues of the Vegas stripclub scene.  I
>guess that's a little luxury you can't find in Kabul.  Allah will
>judge them.

Either they were blending in (ie, counter counterintel) or
they were taking small karma hits and expected to be very in the
black when they got to St Peter's gates.

Admittedly there's some geopolitical/war- and personal- issues involved
in
hijackers' motivations, and maybe their generals were more obsessively
pious than
they, but I don't think you gain much by doubting their faith.

It is much harder to convince someone to kill themselves for you
without something supernatural (irrefutable, possibly tapping into
certain circuits) ---the japs had their emperor, etc.




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Thu Oct  4 17:56:14 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 20:56:14 -0400
Subject: The Martyrdom Videogame
References: 
Message-ID: <3BBD052E.111593FE@acmenet.net>


Anonymous wrote:
> 
> > Christians need to start cultivating a martyrdom
> > culture/generation. Maybe a videogame
> The christian God is a God of peace.
> Doesn't do any good in war, sorry try again.

"Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth?  I [Jesus] tell you,
Nay; but rather division:  For from henceforth there shall be five in
one house divided, three against two, and two against three." (Luke
12:51-2)

"Think not that I [Jesus] have come to send peace on earth:  I come not
to send peace, but a sword." (Matthew 10:34)

"...for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."
(Matthew 26:52)

"...and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
(Luke 22:36)

And that doesn't even touch the red-handed, ravening god of the old
testament.

-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Thu Oct  4 18:11:34 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 21:11:34 -0400
Subject: Dealing with Islamic terrorists, and with Afghanistan
References: <3BBD0075.4457F2D6@lsil.com>
  <20011005003925.5658.qmail@sidereal.kz>
Message-ID: <3BBD08C6.E9ADA424@acmenet.net>


"Dr. Evil" wrote:
> 
> Interesting idea in the area of "psychological warfare" I guess, but
> one problem: There are Jews and Moslems in the US army who might have
> a lot of problems with this.

 So they don't have to be the ones to slaughter the pigs. It's
hard for me to see how anyone, regardless of faith, could object to
treating a terrorist that way.

By the way, terrorists are generally not considered soldiers for
purposes of treatment when captured. They're criminals, with almost no
rights. They might claim they're soldiers, but the lesson of Nueremburg
is that the winners make the rules.


> Perhaps a Britney Spears concert?

Hey, now, we don't want to be violating the Geneva and Stockholm accords
ourselves. 


> One thing to keep in mind is the ordinary guys in Afghanistan are
> aching for anything American (or rather, anything American that
> doesn't go "bang"). ... Maybe the US could take advantage of its
> cultural, instead
> of military, might?  Any other solution is better than killing if
> possible.

Right, which is what I was saying about airdrops with consumer goods as
well as food and guns. Medicines, too, just thought of that.


> From what I can tell they don't take their religion seriously at all.

Probably some of them do, the Joe Talibans I mean, not the not-so-smart
bombs. The problem is they probably haven't read the Koran too carefully
and are relying on the misinterpretations of mullahs with agendas. Same
thing happens with Christianity. Latin America had several preachers
teaching "Revolutionary Christianity" or some such nonsense, telling the
guerrillas that the sixth commandment allows the killing of enemies. The
preachers could get away with this because the masses were mostly
semi-literate and mostly uneducated.


-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From baptista at pccf.net  Thu Oct  4 18:45:15 2001
From: baptista at pccf.net (!Dr. Joe Baptista)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 21:45:15 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: 9-11 The Video - The Graveyard.
Message-ID: 



http://freespeech.org/ramfiles/911_nycimc.ram

This is one of the most revealing videos of the New War in America.  It's
a painful self examination of the horror that America has become after
9-11.  New Yorkers discuss how lives have been affected - not only pain,
but the confusions and uncertainty of the future.

I think it's time to put on the seatbelts and get ready for the sixties on
estacy.  New Yorkers are grieving in many ways.  There is a graveyard in
the middle of NYC and that is drawing powerful emotions which are examined
in detail in this vidio.  You will require a real audio player to view.

Regards
Joe Baptista

more videos at http://freespeech.org/

--
http://www.dot-god.com/

The dot.GOD Registry, Limited
150 West 51st Street, Suite 908
NYC, NY, USA 10019





From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Thu Oct  4 12:49:32 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 21:49:32 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: WTC Photos
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Thu, 4 Oct 2001, John Doe Number Two wrote:

> John was busy playing war tourist, and as any journalist who has
> covered a conflict will tell you, war tourists are some of the lower
> forms of life one can encounter.

How the fuck do you know what John's motives were?

> Think pornographer with a flack jacket.

I've seen lots of broken hardware, not bodies. Cryptome is not
stileproject.com nor rotten.com.

> John shouldn't have been walking inside the crime scene.  The cops
> treated him better than they should have.

Crime scene yakyak blahblah. Labels are ach so convenient.




From anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org  Thu Oct  4 20:06:02 2001
From: anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org (Incognito Innominatus)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 22:06:02 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: The Martyrdom Videogame
Message-ID: <348e4181d19dc1548fb5e9330ae5c9d7@mixmaster.nullify.org>


> Explain the Crusades.
control, "power/politics"
> 
> Explain the Inquisition.
control, "power/politics"
> 
> Islam's god is not a war god either. Much is done to contradict the
> teachings of a given religion in the name of that same religion.
> -MW-
I still stand by that The Chr. God is a G. of \/
Even though Steve F. pointed out that we pick and choose our verses,
Those verses speak not about war, but Resistance> through



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From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Fri Oct  5 00:15:36 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 00:15:36 -0700
Subject: [ISN] CRYPTO-GRAM SPECIAL ISSUE, September 30, 2001 (fwd)
In-Reply-To: ; from Eugene.Leitl@lrz.uni-muenchen.de on Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 03:29:17PM +0200
References: 
Message-ID: <20011005001536.H7205@navel.introspect>

on Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 03:29:17PM +0200, Eugene Leitl (Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de) wrote:

> > The real point of photo ID requirements is to prevent people from
> > reselling tickets.  Nonrefundable tickets used to be regularly
> > advertised in the newspaper classifieds.  Ads would read something
> > like "Round trip, Boston
> 
> This much I agree with.

It's an older practice than you'd think.  I just ran across the
following while looking at some IBM history, regarding the "Hollerith
Card":

    http://www4.wittenberg.edu/academics/mathcomp/bjsdir/history0.shtml

    Hollerith claimed he got [the punched data card] idea from "punch
    photograph cards" used by rail road officials. Used to prevent the
    theft of railroad tickets from passengers, conductors would "record"
    the physical characteristics of the ticket owner (e.g. eye color,
    hair color) by punching specially marked areas on the edge of the
    card. Hollerith used holes punched through the card, not on the edge
    of the card.

Peace.

-- 
Karsten M. Self         http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?              Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                    Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA!  http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                      http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html
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From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Oct  4 07:32:15 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 00:32:15 +1000
Subject: Who wants to be a millionaire
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011005003006.00a19ca0@pop.useoz.com>


Bin laden demolitions has authorised me to offer you a once in a lifetime deal.
1million dollars untracable digital cash will be paid to an account/s of 
your choice
for enough intelligence to proceed with further superpower implosions.
Insider info preffered but not essential,leave packet online in freenet 
transient node...




From drevil at sidereal.kz  Thu Oct  4 17:39:25 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil)
Date: 5 Oct 2001 00:39:25 -0000
Subject: Dealing with Islamic terrorists, and with Afghanistan
In-Reply-To: <3BBD0075.4457F2D6@lsil.com> (mmotyka@lsil.com)
References: <3BBD0075.4457F2D6@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <20011005003925.5658.qmail@sidereal.kz>


Interesting idea in the area of "psychological warfare" I guess, but
one problem: There are Jews and Moslems in the US army who might have
a lot of problems with this.  But hey, I'm in favor of anything that
can end this conflict with the minimum of human bloodshed.  Didn't the
US drop beer on the Ho Chi Minh trail at some point?  Maybe we need a
big beer delivery in Kabul.  Perhaps a Britney Spears concert?

One thing to keep in mind is the ordinary guys in Afghanistan are
aching for anything American (or rather, anything American that
doesn't go "bang").  When Titanic finally got circulated in
Afghanistan on video tape (a few years after it came out in the West)
guys were getting Leo Dicaprio hair cuts, and that pissed off the
Taliban.  Maybe the US could take advantage of its cultural, instead
of military, might?  Any other solution is better than killing if
possible.

> It may or may not work - I don't know how serious these guys are about
> their religion. Should the leaders be more worldly they might struggle
> with their texts to devise a palatable philosophical out for their field
> soldiers.

>From what I can tell they don't take their religion seriously at all.
First of all, Islam does not allow sucide attacks.  Secondly, I just
read that these guys were habitues of the Vegas stripclub scene.  I
guess that's a little luxury you can't find in Kabul.  Allah will
judge them.




From drevil at sidereal.kz  Thu Oct  4 19:36:59 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil)
Date: 5 Oct 2001 02:36:59 -0000
Subject: Dealing with Islamic terrorists, and with Afghanistan
In-Reply-To: <3BBD08C6.E9ADA424@acmenet.net> (message from Steve Furlong
  on Thu, 04 Oct 2001 21:11:34 -0400)
References: <3BBD0075.4457F2D6@lsil.com>
  <20011005003925.5658.qmail@sidereal.kz>
  <3BBD08C6.E9ADA424@acmenet.net>
Message-ID: <20011005023659.26450.qmail@sidereal.kz>


> > Perhaps a Britney Spears concert?
> 
> Hey, now, we don't want to be violating the Geneva and Stockholm accords
> ourselves. 

Hey there's nothing wrong with Britney except for her music, right?

> Probably some of them do, the Joe Talibans I mean, not the not-so-smart
> bombs. The problem is they probably haven't read the Koran too carefully
> and are relying on the misinterpretations of mullahs with agendas. Same
> thing happens with Christianity. Latin America had several preachers
> teaching "Revolutionary Christianity" or some such nonsense, telling the
> guerrillas that the sixth commandment allows the killing of enemies. The
> preachers could get away with this because the masses were mostly
> semi-literate and mostly uneducated.

That's a good way to look at it.  Anyway, the Koran is written in
Arabic, and Joe Taliban speaks some Persian dialect, and he may not be
literate in that, much less literate in Koranic Arabic, so they
basically can't read it themselves, and have to rely on the mullahs,
who, as you point out, have agendas.  I guess it's the same situation
with the Catholic church in the middle ages.

The situation is the same everywhere.  In the US there are some people
who don't believe that the 2nd Amendment means that people have the
right to bear arms.




From nobody at paranoici.org  Thu Oct  4 17:39:35 2001
From: nobody at paranoici.org (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 02:39:35 +0200
Subject: The Martyrdom Videogame
Message-ID: 


> Christians need to start cultivating a martyrdom
> culture/generation. Maybe a videogame
The christian God is a God of peace.
Doesn't do any good in war, sorry try again.




From fade at freedom.net  Fri Oct  5 01:40:23 2001
From: fade at freedom.net (fade at freedom.net)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 03:40:23 -0500
Subject: ZKS Shutdown
References: <5d175bdfd6756456a92c5c0941e3a137@dizum.com>
Message-ID: <200110050842.f958g8f04011@slack.lne.com>


At 06:44 PM 10/4/2001 +0000, Ian Goldberg wrote:

>    As we began our feature triage for Freedom 3.0 (almost 9 months ago)
>    we heard from customers and focus groups of users, as well as
>    channel partners (i.e.
>    http://www.zeroknowledge.com/media/pressrel.asp?rel=08152001), and
>    reflected on the statistics from our existing user base, and decided
>    that there was not enough mass market demand for the premium
>    services to justify continuing the service.

The shittiest part about this is the 7 day notice. (I have +/- 2.5 years worth
of pseudonymous contacts, registrations, software releases, etc which 
I now have 7 days to figure out how to clean up  :P)

Based on that paragraph, it sounds like this was a decision ZKS made a long
time ago. Wow, I've never been fucked as bad as this by any company I
had trusted to "do the right thing". Guess that'll teach me.  And of course 
ZKS isn't even going to be decent enough to provide the option to have nym 
mail forwarded to another address for an interim time. 

Obviously, if the business model isn't sustainable, they have to shut it down. 
However the way ZKS handled the shutdown and in particular their total 
disrespect for their (ex)customer base is absolutely unforgivable.  

--fade




From nobody at paranoici.org  Thu Oct  4 20:39:38 2001
From: nobody at paranoici.org (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 05:39:38 +0200
Subject: Dealing with Islamic terrorists, and with Afghanistan
Message-ID: 


...
> > From what I can tell they don't take their religion seriously at
> > all. 
> 
> Probably some of them do, the Joe Talibans I mean, not the
> not-so-smart bombs. The problem is they probably haven't read the
> Koran too carefully 
Again, watch Cnn with care. These are not suicides but attacks using
body. 
Even if the koran doesn't say: Use your Body For Allah in so many
specific
ways, it's clear that is a valid form of fighting.
Cowardly according to the west. Well, supply I.J / HEZ / HAM with
weapons
then. Then we can have a fair and square show down in little israel.
...
> Allah will judge them.
They are in heaven now.




From nobody at hyperreal.pl  Fri Oct  5 00:01:01 2001
From: nobody at hyperreal.pl (Anonymous)
Date: 5 Oct 2001 07:01:01 -0000
Subject: Dealing with Islamic terrorists, and with Afghanistan
Message-ID: <2ea692465f823fe6fe589db445f3ce31@hyperreal.pl>


>Re attacking Afghanistan, I don't even see why we're talking about going
>there in any kind of force, nor why there's talk of bombing it. We don't
>have a quarrel with the mass of Afghanis, but with the Taliban. Most of

You little piece of shit, don't you "we" us.

I have no quarrel with anyone just because some shithead wrote or said something.

My direct experience with Taliban (zero) and US government (a lot) makes latter a much bigger problem. Your handlers are trying to embed this "taliban" thing into sheeple's heads so that dogs of war can be let loose.

But just looking at WHO GAINED the most (see criminology 101), it's the US government that is the prime suspect here. I don't see ANY real gain for islam/jihad whatsoever. 

>razors, science fiction paperbacks, anything we can to drive the Taliban
>up the wall.

We ?

Fuck you.




From drevil at sidereal.kz  Fri Oct  5 00:19:56 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil)
Date: 5 Oct 2001 07:19:56 -0000
Subject: Incentives (Re: Dealing with Islamic terrorists, and with
  Afghanistan)
In-Reply-To: <3BBD2DF8.3CCC1126@acm.org> (message from Optimizzin
  Al-gorithm on Thu, 04 Oct 2001 20:50:16 -0700)
References: <3BBD2DF8.3CCC1126@acm.org>
Message-ID: <20011005071956.3628.qmail@sidereal.kz>


> >From what I can tell they don't take their religion seriously at all.
> 
> I think this is nearly as ludicrous as questioning the depth
> of their delusions.

Well, my point is that they are extremely serious about achieving
various political goals, but don't know the first thing about what
Islam really means.  To put it another way, was Stalin a communist?
Yes, in the sense of being a member of the Communist Party, but other
than that, not in the slightest little bit.  He didn't believe in
Marxism in even the tiniest degree; he believed only in his own
personal power, and Marxism was a convenient rhetoric for that.  Same
with Mr. bin Laden.  He calls himself a Moslem but he doesn't act like
one.  A few things about Islam: The word Islam is a cognate of the
Hebrew word "Shalom", meaning "peace".  Islam specificly states that
people who follow a religion which is based on a revealed book are
alright (this basically means Jews and Christians).  Islam reveres
martyrs but forbids suicide attacks; ie, if you plan to be a martyr,
you aren't, and you're going to hell.  All these points are obvious if
you've taken Islam 101.  Mr. bin Laden is smart enough to understand
these things but has chosen a life which is repulsive to any true
Moslem.  There isn't any serious theological debate about that fact.
The Koran is pretty clear on the big points like that.  The terrorists
themselves were the same way.  The American way of life, particularly
things like Vegas and strip clubs, is ostensibly what they were trying
to destroy, and yet they couldn't resist it at a personal level.  This
is just how human beings are.  Humans are hypocrites who say, "Do as I
say, not as I do."  You can see it everywhere: Rosie O'donnel's
bodyguards carry guns, the Catholic clergy is infested with AIDS,
Clinton swore to defend the Constution, whatever, that's just how
people are.

> It is much harder to convince someone to kill themselves for you
> without something supernatural (irrefutable, possibly tapping into
> certain circuits) ---the japs had their emperor, etc.

Actually.... this brings up a very interesting point.  The fact is,
these guys had families, spoke English, had skills, had visas to
Western countries, probably had Western friends, basically they were
people who could have had bright hopes and futures.  They also had a
taste of the West and they liked it, including little Western perks
like alcohol and lap dances.  They were older, not wide-eyed
teenagers.  As I understand, they were recent converts to the
extremist cause.  I think some of them converted while in Western
countries.  Hmmm, it's possible for a guy in that position (visa,
future, skills, Western tastes) to convert to someone who wants to go
out in a fireball for Allah, but it makes me wonder a little bit if
there was more to it than that.  Also, to get 19 such people to commit
over a period of years with no leaks, including no leaks from people
who turned down this fabulous once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, quite
amazing.  Maybe the 70-eager-virgins-a-day was the carrot, but I
suspect there may have been a stick, too.  That would be an
interesting thing to know more about.




From xeni at xeni.net  Fri Oct  5 07:53:08 2001
From: xeni at xeni.net (Xeni Jardin)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 07:53:08 -0700
Subject: "HNC Developing New Air Security Software"
Message-ID: 


The Reuters story follows, and the HNC corporate press release
announcing the project is here:



press release excerpt:

<>

--XJ



October 4, 2001
HNC Developing New Air Security Software
By REUTERS
Filed at 5:35 p.m. ET

http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/011004/n04269364_3.html

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - HNC Software Inc (news/quote) (HNCS.O), best
known for products that help catch credit-card and insurance fraud, said
on Thursday it was developing a program for airlines that would sweep
through reservation records for suspicious patterns and help flag
potential hijackers.

San Diego-based HNC is developing the software with privately-held PROS
Revenue Management Inc., which manages revenue systems for major
airlines, including Southwest Airlines (news/quote) (LUV.N), Delta Air
Lines Inc. (news/quote) (DAL.N) and Continental Airlines Inc.
(news/quote)``We're already in dialogue with airline companies today,''
said John Mutch, chief executive of HNC, adding that he expected the new
security software would be delivered within six months.

The new technology will mesh HNC's science-based risk detection
capabilities -- which use mathematical algorithms that identify patterns
in data -- with PROS' data-driven forecasting expertise. By scoring
patterns in millions of reservation records and other data, it will
identify suspicious transactions, which can be flagged for
investigation.

``We will be able to detect patterns -- for instance, if five people of
the same origin are traveling together and may use a certain kind of
payment, fall between the ages of 25 and 40, and had previously limited
credit history,'' Mutch said.

``These are the types of things we could use to provide risk profiles.
The relationships are subtle,'' he said.

The program would deliver a real-time scorecard to airlines, with a
range of one to 1,000, which would alert airline personnel of the
potential need to increase security.

``If a flight scored 950, the likelihood of a security risk or problem
would be very high, and the airline, for instance, could cancel or delay
the flight,'' he said.

SCORING RISKS

Depending on the score, airlines could determine whether or not to
cancel or delay a flight to re-check baggage, or question passengers, he
reiterated.

``Security threats are frequently evident in patterns of traveler data,
and our solutions can assist in analyzing these patterns,'' said Bert
Winemiller, chief executive of Houston-based PROS.

Previous suggestions to use data-mining software to sift through
corporate records have drawn opposition from civil rights advocates.

``The system will have to draw data on individuals but the profiles are
anonymous,'' said Mutch who conceded that ``there is a trade-off between
security and privacy, there's no question.''

Some experts have endorsed the application of the technology, which
found its first commercial application in programs that scan for
potential credit card fraud.

``In the 1980s, when the first model that screened for hijackers and
terrorists was designed, the sophisticated predictive technologies these
companies are bringing to bear on this glaring problem did not exist,''
said Joseph Del Balzo, former acting administrator of the Federal
Aviation Administration.

Mutch said HNC has earmarked about $10 million to develop new security
technology, including $4 million in government defense and intelligence
contracts. A month before the Sept. 11 attacks on the Pentagon and the
World Trade Center, HNC reached a three-year contract with the Defense
Department to develop a program that would identify outbreaks of
biological attacks by detecting patterns within bacterial DNA.

HNC's stock fell 49 cents on Thursday to $21.05, but has rallied back to
the level that it had held before the attacks, in line with a gain in
other security-related shares. The stock has lost almost 28 percent so
far this year.

HNC like many other technology companies has seen business slow and on
Thursday it said it expects third quarter earnings and sales to fall
below analysts' estimates, with revenues ranging between $58 million and
$59 million and operating earnings per share from 13 cents to 15 cents.

Analysts polled by Thomson Financial/First Call had estimated on average
the company would report earnings of 18 cents a share and revenues of
$60.5 million.

``I think everyone in the technology sector has been affected in the
third quarter and we're not an exception. We saw a lot of standstill and
we're going to adopt a very cautious guidance going forward,'' he said.




From oa at acm.org  Fri Oct  5 08:03:40 2001
From: oa at acm.org (Optimizzin Al-gorithm)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 08:03:40 -0700
Subject: American Death Squads
Message-ID: <3BBDCBCB.AF15C720@acm.org>


At 03:38 PM 10/4/01 -0700, Eric Cordian wrote:
>
>"We are going to disrupt these people through preemptive attack ... we
>will deceive them, we will run psyops on them,

Hey, his buddies are running psyops against the US citizenry, why
not everyone?

at selected points and
>times they will be killed suddenly, in significant numbers, and without

>warning."

Long periods of boredom punctuated by.. (the latest MS virus?)

>"Tomahawk missiles, 2000 pound laser guided weapons dropped from B2's
or
>F22's at very high altitude, remote control, booby traps, blackmail and
at
>places, small groups of soldiers or SEALs will appear in total
darkness,
>blow down the doors and kill them at close range with automatic weapons

>and hand grenades"

Gonna be hard to do with a tourniquet on the stump of leg left after
finding an old soviet souvenir.

>A U.S. military official who was shown McCaffrey's comments said they
were
>the "insights of a very smart guy."

If so, Barry didn't think of it.

Hey Barry ---how many of your friends lose their kids if the
columbian-jihad
put a 6-month-delay-toxin in their coke?




From oa at acm.org  Fri Oct  5 08:07:18 2001
From: oa at acm.org (Optimizzin Al-gorithm)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 08:07:18 -0700
Subject: Elian bin Laden
Message-ID: <3BBDCCA6.C8B7DC1@acm.org>


At 03:38 PM 10/4/01 -0700, Eric Cordian wrote:
>Barry McCaffrey, former Drug Czar, making an approved leak on how the
US
>plans to deal with sub-national groups, their friends, and their
>supporters.
>
>It's not nice to taunt Happy-Fun-Superpower.
>
>http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/10/03/ret.mccaffrey.war.plan/
>
>-----
>
>WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Retired Army Gen. Barry McCaffrey, who was drug
czar
>during President Clinton's second term, said in an online exchange last

>month that those against the United States in its war on terrorism
would
>"be killed suddenly, in significant numbers and without warning."
>
>...
>
>"We are going to disrupt these people through preemptive attack ... we
>will deceive them, we will run psyops on them, at selected points and
>times they will be killed suddenly, in significant numbers, and without

>warning."
>
>"Tomahawk missiles, 2000 pound laser guided weapons dropped from B2's
or
>F22's at very high altitude, remote control, booby traps, blackmail and
at
>places, small groups of soldiers or SEALs will appear in total
darkness,

High Altitude Low Opening...

How many night vision devices in Afghanistan?

>blow down the doors and kill them at close range with automatic weapons

>and hand grenades"

This ain't snatching a little boy from some Cubans in Florida, honey.




From oa at acm.org  Fri Oct  5 08:35:06 2001
From: oa at acm.org (Optimizzin Al-gorithm)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 08:35:06 -0700
Subject: Opening shots in the war on Steganography
Message-ID: <3BBDD329.2A75C733@acm.org>


>Subject: Opening shots in the war on Steganography
>Sender: owner-cryptography at wasabisystems.com
>
>http://abcnews.go.com/sections/primetime/DailyNews/PRIMETIME_011004_steganography.html

>
>
>A Secret Language
>
>Hijackers May Have Used Secret Internet Messaging Technique
>
>By Brian Ross
>
>
>Oct. 4  The terrorists responsible for the Sept. 11 attacks may have
>communicated over the Internet using a computer version of invisible
ink
>that allows secret messages to be concealed in image and music files.
>
>Western intelligence officials say they have learned that instructors
at
>Osama bin Laden's camps in remote Afghanistan train his followers in
the
>high-tech secret-messaging technique.
>
>And French investigators believe that suspects arrested in an alleged
>plot to blow up the U.S. Embassy in Paris were to get the go-ahead for
>the attack via a message hidden in a picture posted on the Internet,
>former French defense official Alexis Debat told ABCNEWS.
>
>One of the men in custody, described by French officials as a computer
>nerd well-versed in the messaging technique, was captured with a
>notebook full of secret codes. "This code book is major breakthrough in

>the investigation," said Debat.
>
>Covered Writing
>
>To transmit a hidden message, the sender uses specialized software to
>hide a text message  or a graphical file such as a building plan 
>inside another file, such as an image file or an MP3 music file.
>
>"Criminal organizations, terrorist organizations around the world use
>this," said Chet Hosmer, an Internet security expert who has been
>helping the FBI and military intelligence since Sept. 11 track down
>hidden communications on the Internet.
>
>"Images that might be in an e-mail message that I send to you, that has

>a picture of my dog or my cat  I hide an actual secret message inside
>that image that no one else would be able to detect or see," Hosmer
>said.

Good introduction so far..

>
>For example, with a few clicks and the right password, a terrorist
could
>use a picture of the Mona Lisa, or an MP3 of the U.S. national anthem,
>to carry a secret coded message, such as a seating chart for an
airliner
>or a list of flights out of Boston.

But here Joe Sixpack might get confused, because Joe hasn't been to
Europe to take an original picture, and doesn't sing.  Chet ought
to have said baby pictures or live audio recordings.


>
>The technique is known as "steganography," meaning covered writing.
>
>"It actually goes back to Roman times when they used to shave the head
>of messengers, and tattoo secret messages on their scalp," said Hosmer.

>"It really doesn't have very many legitimate purposes.

Fuck you Chet.

>The purpose is to
>actually hide the fact that you are communicating."
>
>Instructions Via E-mail
>
>In addition to low-tech equipment like box-cutters, the alleged
>hijackers in the Sept. 11 attacks also had e-mail accounts at Yahoo!
and
>Hotmail.
>
>Suspected ringleader Mohamed Atta was seen repeatedly by witnesses
using
>his Hotmail account at public libraries in Florida to surf the
Internet,
>downloading what appeared to be pictures of children and scenes of the
>Middle East.
>
>Special FBI squads are working full-time on the Internet connections of

>the 19 alleged hijackers, going through accounts at America Online and
>other service providers.
>
>Investigators are also searching cyberspace for more deadly messages
and
>warnings that could help them take precautions against future terrorist

>attacks.




From jamesd at echeque.com  Fri Oct  5 09:01:47 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 09:01:47 -0700
Subject: Incentives (Re: Dealing with Islamic terrorists, and with 
  Afghanistan)
Message-ID: <3BBD76FB.4509.6DEA13@localhost>


   --
On 5 Oct 2001, at 7:19, Dr. Evil wrote:
> To put it another way, was Stalin a communist? Yes, in the
> sense of being a member of the Communist Party, but other
> than that, not in the slightest little bit.  He didn't
> believe in Marxism in even the tiniest degree

When someone says that Stalin was not a communist, we know 
that person condemns Stalin for insufficient mass murder, and 
being too soft on the kulaks.

It is clear that Stalin was a sincere Marxist and a good 
Marxist theoretician.  He wrote some very clear theoretical 
explanations of Marxism, and he obviously viewed the world 
through that skewed and distorted lens.  He explained the 
core of his delusions most lucidly, and acted in accord with 
those delusions.  When Chomsky justified terror and slavery 
in North Vietnam, he used the language and theory of Stalin 
to justify it.  If Stalin was such a crappy theoretician, why 
is Chomsky using Stalinist theory?

The argument that Stalin was not a genuine Marxist was made 
at the time by those who thought themselves purer Marxists 
than he, who thought he was too soft on the kulaks, too 
bothered by foolish bourgeois morality, too reluctant to 
murder workers and peasants, and that Lenin was not communist 
enough.

Those who condemned Stalin for not being a sufficiently pure 
Marxist in 1930 were upset because in 1930 he backed off from 
mass murder and war upon the peasants -- though it eventually 
became apparent that he only backed off because the Soviet 
State was insufficiently prepared for that war, and might 
have lost it had it launched it prematurely.98

Those who condemned Stalin in 1956 never mentioned those 
elements of his repression that were most hated at the time 
-- the internal passport system that bound the peasant to the 
land and the laborer to the bench, a system that became 
standard in every communist country, including those they 
applauded.  Those who condemn him today for insufficiently 
pure communism recently defended Stalin's attempt to crush 
democracy in Greece and wrap the iron curtain around Greece 
at the start of the cold war.  Those who condemned him as not 
a communist in 1976 cheered the holocaust of the Cambodians 
and ridiculed and condemned those who dared flee the terror. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     GR+Mta+/kzLH6R/poMFtm75BNlf3IM42WAAtc3ey
     4a0t4OXmhyjMU/2S4FumnhYVdaywvVrAA+yBlpvxI




From masscash2002 at xbfxgcsyldm.yahoo.com  Fri Oct  5 09:10:32 2001
From: masscash2002 at xbfxgcsyldm.yahoo.com (masscash2002 at xbfxgcsyldm.yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 09:10:32 -0700
Subject: Why WAIT??? Refinance NOW!!! -yonu
Message-ID: <3xq14vg.88852@bulkmail.startinganewbiz.com>


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**********************************************************


--
[This message was sent using an evaluation copy of
IMail Server for Windows NT, a product of Ipswitch, Inc.]




From iand at europe.com  Fri Oct  5 01:28:07 2001
From: iand at europe.com (iand at europe.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 09:28:07 +0100
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <200110050855.DAA12816@einstein.ssz.com>


Dear Friend:


AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV :


''Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from
your home for an investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars expense
one time'' THANKS TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET!


=================================================


BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!!


Before you say ''Bull'', please read the following. This is
the letter you have been hearing about on the news lately.
Due to the popularity of this letter on the internet, a
national weekly news program recently devoted an entire show
to the investigation of this program described below, to see
if it really can make people money.


The show also investigated whether or not the program was
legal. Their findings proved once and for all that there are
''absolutely NO laws prohibiting the participation in the
program and if people can follow the simple instructions,
they are bound to make some mega bucks with only $25 out of
pocket cost''.


DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS
PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN
EVER.


This is what one had to say: ''Thanks to this profitable
opportunity. I was approached many times before but each
time I passed on it. I am so glad I finally joined just to
see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort
and money required. To my astonishment, I received total $
610,470.00 in 21 weeks, with money still coming in''. Pam
Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey.


------------------------------------------------------------


Here is another testimonial:


''This program has been around for a long time but I never
believed in it. But one day when I received this again in
the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the
simple instructions and voila' - 3 weeks later the money
started to come in. First month I only made $240.00 but the
next 2 months after that I made a total of $290,000.00. So
far, in the past 8 months by re-entering the program, I have
made over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again.The key to
success in this program is to follow the simple steps and
NOT change anything'' More testimonials later but first,


****PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE****


$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5
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following...THEN READ IT AGAIN and AGAIN!!!


$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL
DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, GUARANTEED!


INSTRUCTIONS:


****Order all 5 reports shown on the list below.


****For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE
REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the
person whose name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report.
MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT
CORNER in case of any mail problems.


****When you place your order, make sure you order each of
the 5 reports.You will need all 5 reports so that you can
save them on your computer and resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST
$5 X 5 = $25.00.


****Within a few days you will receive, vie e-mail, each of
the 5 reports from these 5 different individuals. Save them
on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send
to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. Also
make a floppy of these reports and keep it on your desk in
case something happen to your computer.


****IMPORTANT __ DO NOT alter the names of the people who
are listed next to each report, or their sequence on the
list, in any way other than what is instructed below in step
'' 1 through 6 '' or you will loose out on majority of your
profits. Once you understand the way this works, you will
also see how it does not work if you change it.


Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter, it
will NOT work!!! People have tried to put their
friends/relatives names on all five thinking they could get
all the money. But it does not work this way. Believe us, we
all have tried to be greedy and then nothing happened. So Do
Not try to change anything other than what is instructed.
Because if you do, it will not work for you.Remember,
honesty reaps the reward!!!


1....After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this
advertisement and REMOVE the name & address of the person in
REPORT #5. This person has made it through the cycle and is
no doubt counting their fortune.


2....Move the name & address in REPORT #4 down TO REPORT # 5.


3....Move the name & address in REPORT #3 down TO REPORT # 4.


4....Move the name & address in REPORT #2 down TO REPORT # 3.


5....Move the name & address in REPORT #1 down TO REPORT #2


6....Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT #1 Position.


PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY!


=================================================


****Take this entire letter, with the modified list of
names, and save it on your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER
CHANGES. Save this on a disk as well just in case if you
loose any data.


****To assist you with marketing your business on the
internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with
invaluable marketing information which includes how to send
bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free
classified ads and much more.


There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going:


METHOD #1 : BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY


=================================================


Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it
goes, and we will assume You and those involved send out
only 5,000 e-mails each. Let's also assume that the mailing
receive only a 0.2% response (the response could be much
better but lets just say it is only 0.2% . Also many people
will send out hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only
5,000 each).


Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-
mails. With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for
report # 1.Those 10 people responded by sending out 5,000 e-
mail each for a total of 50,000. Out of those 50,000 e-mails
only 0.2% responded with orders. That's = 100 people
responded and ordered Report # 2. Those 100 people mail out
5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e-mails. The 0.2%
response to that is 1000 orders for Report # 3. Those 1000
people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million
e-mails sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders
for Report # 4. Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails
each for a total of 50,000,000 (50 million) e-mails. The
0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for Report # 5


THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH = $500,000.00 (half
million).


Your total income in this example is: 1..... $50 + 2.....
$500 + 3..... $5,000 + 4..... $50,000 + 5..... $500,000
... Grand Total = $555,550.00


NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE OUT THE
WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT,
YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY!


------------------------------------------------------------


REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING
OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO. Dare to think for a moment what
would happen if everyone, or half or even one 4th of those
people mailed 100,000 e-mails each or more? There are over
150 million people on the internet worldwide and counting.
Believe me, any people will do just that, and more!


METHOD #2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET


=================================================


Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there
are hundreds of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of
free ads on the internet will easily get a larger response.
We strongly suggest you start with method #1 and add METHOD
#2 as you go along. For every $5 you receive, all you must
do is e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it .
Always provide same day service on all orders. This will
guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and
address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise
until they receive the report.


_________________AVAILABLE REPORTS__________________


ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: Always
send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT
accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in
at least 2 sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper,
Write the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are ordering,
YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address.


PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW:


=================================================


REPORT #1 ''The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on
the Net'' Order Report #1 from:

I Dee
8 Moorview Road
Skipton, North Yorkshire
BD23 2SB
United Kingdom
_____________________________________________________


REPORT #2 ''The Insider's Guide to Sending Targetted e-mail on
the Net'' Order Report #2 from :

R.D.
P.O. Box 8193
Nikiski, AK 99635
_____________________________________________________


REPORT #3 ''The Secret to Multilevel marketing on the Net''
Order Report #3 from:

T. Sumner
47220 Blackbear Cir.
Kenai, AK 99611
____________________________________________________


REPORT #4 ''How to become a millionaire utilizing MLM & the
Net'' Order Report #4 from:

H.M.
P.O. Box 207
Highland, Calif 92346
USA
_____________________________________________________


REPORT #5 ''HOW TO SEND 1 MILLION E-MAILS FOR FREE'' Order
Report #5 from:

Crystal Shannon
P.O. Box 4248
Soldonta, AK 99669
______________________________________________________


$$$$$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$$$$


Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:


***If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1
within 2 weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do.


***After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after
that you should receive 100 orders or more for REPORT #2. If
you did not, continue advertising or sending e-mails until
you do.


***Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report #2,
YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you,
and the cash will continue to roll in!


THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER : Every time your name is
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From bzzlgtyr at hotmail.com  Fri Oct  5 07:36:16 2001
From: bzzlgtyr at hotmail.com (Buzz LightYear)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 09:36:16 -0500
Subject: Crypto FUD from ABCnews
Message-ID: 


ABCnews.com has a story and a streaming video segment concerning Osam Bin 
Laden's use of Steganography.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/primetime/DailyNews/PRIMETIME_011004_steganography.html 
(Link to video on page).

My problem is in the video segment. The segment "demonstrates" the use of 
steganography buy showing 3 examples: 1. The floor plan of an aircraft 
hidden in an image of the Mona Lisa; 2. A satelite photo hidden in a Web 
Site image; 3. A Flight Schedule hidden in an MP3 file(Whitney Houston's 
renditon of "God Bless America" no less).

The way the video is edited impiles to a casual observer that these are 
actually images from from Bin Laden. Only a couple times do they mention in 
passing that it is a "Demonstration".

The slickly produced segment's only purpose seems to be to spread FUD about 
the use of Cryptography and Stegnaography.

Shame on them.


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Fri Oct  5 10:18:17 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 10:18:17 -0700
Subject: Threat Recognition Testing (fwd)
Message-ID: <3BBDEB59.7A19F1A8@lsil.com>


Very interesting and worth more reading. I would guess that even if it
moves beyond the lab it will be treated like the polygraph. I wouldn't
be surprised though if it is possible to train one's brain to move from
state to state at will. Defocus your vision and visualize your training.




From tcmay at got.net  Fri Oct  5 10:20:51 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 10:20:51 -0700
Subject: The Coming Crypto Winter
In-Reply-To: <200110051631.MAA11054@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <534B2333-B9B5-11D5-9404-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Friday, October 5, 2001, at 12:24 PM, John Young wrote:

> Walter Mossberg, WSJ technology columnist, wrote
> yesterday about the need for the Internet coming to be
> treated like other forms of communication, that now
> is the time for its special treatment to end. He said
> to get rid of pseudonyms and anonymity, that people
> need to own up to who they are. Implied that national
> security is at stake.
>

The sheeple and the scribblers are falling all over themselves to 
sacrifice liberty.

Mossberg, Young, and all of the other recent enemies of liberty don't 
understand that the right to keep private diaries, to speak in whispers, 
to draw the curtains, to meet in private, and to post anonymous 
handbills goes back to the founding of the nation.

"Time for the special treatment to end" is a display of ignorance. 
Perhaps he should reread some of the pseudonymous writings in the 
Federalist Papers.

I would write more, but what's the point? If they haven't grokked the 
essence of liberty before, our words can't help. Only technology can.

As predicted by many of us over the years, the "Crypto Winter" is coming.


--Tim May, Corralitos, California
Quote of the Month: "It is said that there are no atheists in foxholes; 
perhaps there are no true libertarians in times of terrorist attacks." 
--Cathy Young, "Reason Magazine," both enemies of liberty.




From tcmay at got.net  Fri Oct  5 10:24:18 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 10:24:18 -0700
Subject: Crypto FUD from ABCnews
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Friday, October 5, 2001, at 07:36 AM, Buzz LightYear wrote:

> ABCnews.com has a story and a streaming video segment concerning Osam 
> Bin Laden's use of Steganography.
>
> http://abcnews.go.com/sections/primetime/DailyNews/PRIMETIME_011004_steganography.
> html (Link to video on page).
>
> My problem is in the video segment. The segment "demonstrates" the use 
> of steganography buy showing 3 examples: 1. The floor plan of an 
> aircraft hidden in an image of the Mona Lisa; 2. A satelite photo 
> hidden in a Web Site image; 3. A Flight Schedule hidden in an MP3 
> file(Whitney Houston's renditon of "God Bless America" no less).
>
> The way the video is edited impiles to a casual observer that these are 
> actually images from from Bin Laden. Only a couple times do they 
> mention in passing that it is a "Demonstration".
>
> The slickly produced segment's only purpose seems to be to spread FUD 
> about the use of Cryptography and Stegnaography.
>
> Shame on them.

Don't forget that it was a U.S. evening news show that "demonstrated" 
that gas tanks of a particular vehicle are prone to catching fire by 
attaching an Estes model rocket engine to the gas tank! Only when 
someone narced them out did they sheepishly admit that they had faked 
the demonstration with this rocket engine.


--Tim May, Occupied America

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety 
deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759.




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Fri Oct  5 10:36:48 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 10:36:48 -0700
Subject: Opening shots in the war on Steganography
Message-ID: <3BBDEFB0.49D5AC89@lsil.com>


The opening shots were fired some time ago when funding was assigned to
detection research.

http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~farid/publications/tr01.html - look at the
first page alphbet soup.

http://www.rl.af.mil/div/IFO/IFOI/IFOIPA/press_history/pr-99/pr-99-86.html

http://www.info-sec.com/crypto/01/crypto_022001a_j.shtml

http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,41861,00.html




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Fri Oct  5 10:42:41 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 10:42:41 -0700
Subject: The Martyrdom Videogame
In-Reply-To: <3BBD01EC.DEB1148A@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011005103731.0382e110@idiom.com>


Just another example of the trend that you
don't need to be religious to exercise religious bigotry.
Hating other people and insulting their values
doesn't require either understanding them
or having values of your own.
It's frustrating how rabidly intolerant a lot of
ostensibly socially liberal people are.

>Optimizzin Al-gorithm  wrote :
>
> > Christians need to start cultivating a
> > martyrdom culture/generation. Maybe a
> > videogame where you win by blowing
> > yourself up and taking out a lot of
> > drugdealers^H^H^H^Hmoslems^H^H^H^Hwhatever
> > the fuck the bogeymen du jour are.
> >
> > Much more intense than tossing cruise missiles
> > from afar.




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From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Oct  5 12:24:47 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 12:24:47 -0700
Subject: WSJ Knocks Online Anonymity
Message-ID: <200110051631.MAA11054@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>


Walter Mossberg, WSJ technology columnist, wrote
yesterday about the need for the Internet coming to be 
treated like other forms of communication, that now
is the time for its special treatment to end. He said
to get rid of pseudonyms and anonymity, that people
need to own up to who they are. Implied that national
security is at stake.

Weird, for Mossberg is usually level-headed, and the
WSJ has recently been fairly critical of the power grab
of the Bush government in the name of national
security.

You might think Mossberg has had a personal problem
with anonymous criticism. Or lost a loved one in the
recent tragedy. Or just wanted to take a swing at
nobodies to strut his courage, bygod, courage to
demand the world be safe and secure like it used
to be before the Internet.

Or maybe he got outed for using WSJ's servers,
or his wife's PC, to eat some lonely guy porn.




From rsw at MIT.EDU  Fri Oct  5 09:26:20 2001
From: rsw at MIT.EDU (Riad S. Wahby)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 12:26:20 -0400
Subject: To Jim Bell et al, from Chas Vest of MIT, re Martyr
  Airlines
In-Reply-To: <3BBCFB53.3C730628@acm.org>; from oa@acm.org on Thu, Oct
  04, 2001 at 05:14:12PM -0700
References: <3BBCFB53.3C730628@acm.org>
Message-ID: <20011005122620.B8180@positron.mit.edu>


Optimizzin Al-gorithm  wrote:
> To the Alumnae and Alumni of MIT:



We usually call him Chuck.  The verb form.

There were t-shirts being sold a couple years ago with "cV" printed on
them (think cK from the Calvin Klein logo) in large-ish letters, then
under that, "Chuck Vest: It's An Imperative."

--
Riad Wahby
rsw at mit.edu
MIT VI-2/A 2002




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Fri Oct  5 12:54:17 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 12:54:17 -0700
Subject: Threat Recognition Testing (fwd)
References: <3BBDEB59.7A19F1A8@lsil.com> <3BBE0AF0.55AE1499@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <3BBE0FE9.D28A705A@lsil.com>


Harmon Seaver wrote:
> 
>         Yup, play around with light-sound machines and biofeedback for
> awhile, you definitely can learn to control your brain waves. This TRT,
> however, is still pretty scary -- especially if, as they claim, it's
> allowed as court evidence. Don't know how they could really do that --- not
> just thought crime, thought conviction as well, eh?
> 
As long as you cannot be compelled to let the monkeys attach electrodes
to your brain.

Mike ( Neo-Luddite )




From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org  Fri Oct  5 09:55:28 2001
From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 12:55:28 -0400
Subject: ZKS Shutdown
References: <5d175bdfd6756456a92c5c0941e3a137@dizum.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20011004112745.04af1008@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: <3BBDE600.5050100@dragonsweb.org>


Steve Schear wrote:

> At 09:57 AM 10/4/2001 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
>> It's on Slashdot.
>> http://www.freedom.net/prem.html - shutdown warning
>> http://www.freedom.net/support/article.html?article=410 - warning that
>>         with fewer servers, your anonymity is less protected
>>         from traffic analysis
>> http://slashdot.org/articles/01/10/04/1526256.shtml - discussion
> 
> 
> Did ZKS ever release their source code?  Might it be resurrected?
> 
> steve
> 
> 

http://opensource.zeroknowledge.com

With some kind of distributed anonymous payment mechanism/bandwidth 
accounting for server peers, it could work. Haven't really looked at it yet.

Sure, terrorists could use it. They also use airplanes, bankers, judges, 
politicians, cops, etc.

jbdigriz




From tcmay at got.net  Fri Oct  5 13:13:33 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 13:13:33 -0700
Subject: Anthrax found in Florida
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <73DD9678-B9CD-11D5-9404-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Friday, October 5, 2001, at 12:51 PM, Anonymous wrote:

> A man in Florida has been infected with anthrax, according to the CDC.
>
> 
>
> But don't freak out, they say. Don't buy a gas mask or antibiotics.
> Don't panic. Get back in your cubicle. Keep working. Stay at your
> desk.
>
> Under no circumstances should you try to find some ciprofloxacin, an
> antibiotic which might be useful in treating inhalational anthrax.
>
> 
>

First case of inhalational anthrax reported in the U.S. in over 25 
years, CNN reported, and yet it is happening NOW?

The news reports are that the man may have been exposed during a visit 
to North Carolina...they're checking on it. However, consider the 
_SECOND_ odd coincidence: the man is from the same part of Florida 
(Lantana, or somesuch) that the WTC pilots were training at.

One coincidence is just that. Two...


--Tim May


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From honig at sprynet.com  Fri Oct  5 13:30:19 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 13:30:19 -0700
Subject: Threat Recognition Testing (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3BBDEB59.7A19F1A8@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011005133019.009607c0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 10:18 AM 10/5/01 -0700, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote:
>Very interesting and worth more reading. I would guess that even if it
>moves beyond the lab it will be treated like the polygraph. I wouldn't
>be surprised though if it is possible to train one's brain to move from
>state to state at will. Defocus your vision and visualize your training.

Maybe not; the arousal mechanisms they're measuring may be too automatic,
not subject to conscious control.  Then again, there are yogis who can
run their intestinal peristalsis backwards supposedly, and methods
to subvert the visceral reactions that polygraphs measure.

Its well known that pupils dilate in response to thing you like
and contract when thinking or seeing something you don't.  You
can try this in a mirror.





 






  







From tcmay at got.net  Fri Oct  5 13:41:09 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 13:41:09 -0700
Subject: Anthrax...coincidence?
In-Reply-To: <73DD9678-B9CD-11D5-9404-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <4ED3DBC9-B9D1-11D5-9404-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Friday, October 5, 2001, at 01:13 PM, Tim May wrote:

>
> First case of inhalational anthrax reported in the U.S. in over 25 
> years, CNN reported, and yet it is happening NOW?
>
> The news reports are that the man may have been exposed during a visit 
> to North Carolina...they're checking on it. However, consider the 
> _SECOND_ odd coincidence: the man is from the same part of Florida 
> (Lantana, or somesuch) that the WTC pilots were training at.
>
> One coincidence is just that. Two...

I thought I'd fill in the details for any of the skeptics:

In the anthrax story:


"LANTANA, Fla. (AP) - Health officials have begun tracing the steps of a 
Florida man to pinpoint how he became the first person in the United 
States in a quarter-century to contract an inhaled form of anthrax, a 
disease with a much higher profile since the terrorist attacks. "

And here's the connection to the flight schools and where Atta and his 
partners rented apartments:

"U.S. agents followed Atta's trail from flight training in Venice on the 
west coast to an apartment in Coral Springs to another in Hollywood to 
Lantana, a town on the state's east coast..."


Yeah, mere coincidence that the first reported case of inhalational 
anthrax in 25 years happened at this time, and in the same small town 
where several of the WTC attackers were living and training. (And that 
Atta was one of those trying to rent a crop-dusting plane.)

It would be paranoid to speculate that the strain is India-1967, the 
virulent form of inhalational anthrax developed by Biopreparat/Vector 
and weaponized and tested at Voz. Island in Kazahkstan, north of 
Afghanistan.

When U.S inspectors finally got to the Stepnogorsk facility, weeds were 
growing in the paths between buildings, the doors were flapping in the 
wind, and the stockpiles of smallpox, anthrax, Marburg, tularemia, and 
pneumonic plague had presumably already been sold to the highest bidders.

Have a nice day!

By the way, with reference to the quote from the enemy of liberty below, 
it is tempting for those who have not thought about the issues deeply to 
opine that the horrors of biological terrorism mean that even _more_ 
civil liberties must be sacrificed (no doubt "Reason" is already 
preparing a "germs are scary!" piece to explain why there are no 
libertarians in biohazard suits).

Bear in mind it was GOVERNMENTS who spend billions of dollars and rubles 
finding ways to kill certain ethnic groups with biological vectors, ways 
to gas cities of millions, and ways to create superbugs uncontrollable 
by vaccines. (The U.S. government fears the Sovs devoloped variants of 
smallpox using recombinant DNA techniques that will not be controllable 
by vaccines.)

I speed-read Tucker's "Scourge" several days ago, and yesterday I sat 
down at my local Borders and speed-read the new Judith Miller, William 
Broad, etc. book "Germs." (When I "speed-read" I read for the important 
parts; I can usually absorb a book like this in an hour or so. I would 
read the book at my leisure, but I hate paying $30 for a book I can skim 
and get the gist of.)

Nothing we didn't already know, except some stuff that goes beyond Ken 
Alibek's "Biohazard." Especially about the weapons plants in Uzbekistan, 
Kazakhstan, and other places very close to Afghanistan! I'd thought from 
Alibek's book that most of the Biopreparat facilities were in Sverdlovsk 
and other places in Siberia. (Not that shipping a flask of India-1967 or 
anthrax another 2000 miles is difficult.)

Like I said, "Have a nice day."

--Tim May, Corralitos, California
Quote of the Month: "It is said that there are no atheists in foxholes; 
perhaps there are no true libertarians in times of terrorist attacks." 
--Cathy Young, "Reason Magazine," both enemies of liberty.




From oa at acm.org  Fri Oct  5 13:42:43 2001
From: oa at acm.org (Optimizzin Al-gorithm)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 13:42:43 -0700
Subject: Anthrax found in Florida
Message-ID: <3BBE1B43.CE74EDC@acm.org>


At 01:13 PM 10/5/01 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>On Friday, October 5, 2001, at 12:51 PM, Anonymous wrote:
>
>> A man in Florida has been infected with anthrax, according to the
CDC.
>>
>> 
>>
>> But don't freak out, they say. Don't buy a gas mask or antibiotics.
>> Don't panic. Get back in your cubicle. Keep working. Stay at your
>> desk.
>>
>> Under no circumstances should you try to find some ciprofloxacin, an
>> antibiotic which might be useful in treating inhalational anthrax.
>>
>> 
>>
>
>First case of inhalational anthrax reported in the U.S. in over 25
>years, CNN reported, and yet it is happening NOW?

And that Croatian just thought the busdriver was choking and did an
emergency tracheotomy.

And the Ukrainians are such poor shots...

----
Don't believe half of what you see
and none of what you hear
Lou Reed




From oa at acm.org  Fri Oct  5 13:54:03 2001
From: oa at acm.org (Optimizzin Al-gorithm)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 13:54:03 -0700
Subject: firing a high-powered combat rifle in an airport could do more
  harm than  good
Message-ID: <3BBE1DEB.4E811A79@acm.org>


Notice how its not an evil "assault rifle" but a "combat rifle" now...

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-000079569oct05.story?coll=la%2Dheadlines%2Dcalifornia

RESPONSE TO TERROR
L.A., S.F. Airports to Get National Guard
Safety: Soldiers armed with loaded M-16s will boost security, starting
today. The rifles will be
fired as a last resort, a spokesman says.

By PETER Y. HONG, TIMES STAFF WRITER

National Guard troops with M-16 assault rifles are to report for guard
duty at Los Angeles International and San Francisco airports today, in
a move Gov. Gray Davis called "a symbol of the changes that have
occurred at airports to enhance passenger safety."

But experts warn--and Guard officials acknowledge--that the show of
force against terrorism must be executed with great care to avoid
harming those it is meant to protect.

                    John Reppert, a retired Army general who is a
research center director
                    at Harvard University's Kennedy School of
Government, said the
                    presence of the National Guard may be most important
as a symbol.
                    "Frankly, in my opinion, the reason they are there
is to restore
                    confidence to the public," Reppert said. Carrying
M-16s, for instance,
                    is useful for intimidating wrong-doers and
reassuring skittish travelers,
                    he said. But actually firing a high-powered combat
rifle in an airport
                    terminal could do more harm than good.

                    "I would not want soldiers to use an M-16 in a
public place," Reppert
                    said. "Opening fire in an airport terminal is
dramatically different from
                    doing so in a village."

                    The harder bullet used by the assault rifle is more
likely to ricochet than
                    a round fired from a pistol, Reppert said, which
could harm
                    bystanders.

                    It might even be wise to keep the M-16s unloaded,
Reppert said. "As a commander, I would be
                    very nervous about a soldier carrying a loaded gun.
For one thing, he might drop it." It is also
                    "unlikely people are going to come in and try to
shoot their way to an airplane," he said.

                    It is common for soldiers on guard duty to keep
their guns unloaded, with ammunition ready in a
                    pouch. The sentries guarding the USS Cole when it
was bombed in October 2000 told the
                    Washington Post they did not have ammunition in
their guns, and did not think it made a difference
                    in the surprise attack.

                    But Maj. General Paul D. Monroe Jr., the top officer
of the California National Guard, said the
                    M-16s carried at LAX will be loaded. To fire the
weapon, the soldier must charge it by pulling a
                    handle and then release the safety mechanism, a
process that takes about two seconds, Monroe
                    said.

                    Maj. Stanley Zezotarski, a California National Guard
spokesman, noted, however, that Guard
                    troops would fire their weapons only as a last
resort, and would typically let armed airport police
                    officers take the lead in situations where shots
might be fired. Guard troops today use their
                    weapons sparingly, he said, pointing out that 22
shots were fired by the National Guard during the
                    1992 Los Angeles riots, though more than 20,000 were
fired by the Guard in the 1965 Watts
                    riots.





From andre.goldenstein at aral.net  Fri Oct  5 07:16:47 2001
From: andre.goldenstein at aral.net (andre.goldenstein at aral.net)
Date: 05 Oct 2001 14:16:47 UT
Subject: Newsletter 05.10.01
Message-ID: <0000B42C.3BBDDCE5@smtp.aral.net>



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Dear Sirs,

we would like to offer you today as follows -subject is to prior sales-:

Siemens S45                                    1000 pcs    DEM 521
Siemens S40                                     800 pcs    DEM 445
Siemens S35 silver edition                     1000 pcs    DEM 309
Siemens C35 silver edition                     1000 pcs    DEM 195
Nokia 8210 euro spec,                          1000 pcs    DEM 428
Nokia 3310 original                             500 pcs    DEM 265
Nokia 6210 red and black                       1000 pcs    DEM 439
Ericsson T29 original                          1000 pcs    DEM 309
Sony Z5 original                                700 pcs    DEM 506
Sony J5 original                                200 pcs    DEM 255
Motorola V66                                    600 pcs    DEM 756
Samsung A300                                    500 pcs    DEM 583
Motorola V50 light                              300 pcs    DEM 409

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Aral Mobilfunk Partner KMT GmbH
Tel +49 2102 8747252
Fax +49 2102 8747269
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From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org  Fri Oct  5 11:19:01 2001
From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 14:19:01 -0400
Subject: ZKS Shutdown
References: <5d175bdfd6756456a92c5c0941e3a137@dizum.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20011004112745.04af1008@pop3.lvcm.com> <3BBDE600.5050100@dragonsweb.org>
Message-ID: <3BBDF995.60308@dragonsweb.org>


James B. DiGriz wrote:

> Steve Schear wrote:
> 
>> At 09:57 AM 10/4/2001 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
>>
>>> It's on Slashdot.
>>> http://www.freedom.net/prem.html - shutdown warning
>>> http://www.freedom.net/support/article.html?article=410 - warning that
>>>         with fewer servers, your anonymity is less protected
>>>         from traffic analysis
>>> http://slashdot.org/articles/01/10/04/1526256.shtml - discussion
>>
>>
>>
>> Did ZKS ever release their source code?  Might it be resurrected?
>>
>> steve
>>
>>
> 
> http://opensource.zeroknowledge.com
> 
> With some kind of distributed anonymous payment mechanism/bandwidth 
> accounting for server peers, it could work. Haven't really looked at it 
> yet.
> 
> Sure, terrorists could use it. They also use airplanes, bankers, judges, 
> politicians, cops, etc.
> 
> jbdigriz
> 
> 

addendum:

I left out their most useful tool, the media.




From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Fri Oct  5 12:33:46 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 14:33:46 -0500
Subject: Threat Recognition Testing (fwd)
References: <3BBDEB59.7A19F1A8@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <3BBE0AF0.55AE1499@cybershamanix.com>


        Yup, play around with light-sound machines and biofeedback for
awhile, you definitely can learn to control your brain waves. This TRT,
however, is still pretty scary -- especially if, as they claim, it's
allowed as court evidence. Don't know how they could really do that --- not
just thought crime, thought conviction as well, eh?

mmotyka at lsil.com wrote:

> Very interesting and worth more reading. I would guess that even if it
> moves beyond the lab it will be treated like the polygraph. I wouldn't
> be surprised though if it is possible to train one's brain to move from
> state to state at will. Defocus your vision and visualize your training.

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver at cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html





From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Fri Oct  5 05:42:16 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 14:42:16 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Threat Recognition Testing (fwd)
Message-ID: 




-- Eugen* Leitl leitl
______________________________________________________________
ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204
57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 04:49:08 -0700
From: J. R. Molloy 
Reply-To: extropians at extropy.org
To: extropians at extropy.org
Subject: Threat Recognition Testing

Brain fingerprinting: What you thought, what I meant
David Coursey
http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/stories/story/0,10738,2816429,00.html
The name: "Brain Fingerprinting" is a particularly unfortunate name that
suggests an ability to somehow gather the contents of someone's brain for
identification. It is also painfully close to "brain washing." For this
discussion, I will propose a more accurate, descriptive term: "Threat
Recognition Testing," or when used in criminal investigations, "Evidence
Recognition Testing."

What the test looks for: Threat Recognition Testing seeks to determine whether
the subject being tested recognizes certain items--which may be images of
physical items, pictures, or terminology. If the subject being tested
recognizes enough specific items, he or she can be assumed to have certain
training or experience. In actual testing, the technique was used to find 100
percent of the FBI agents in a test group without falsely selecting civilians
as FBI agents.

How was this done: The subjects were shown words and images that only an FBI
agent would recognize. The non-FBI agents did not recognize these images and
words.

How the test works: Subjects are hooked up to a device that measures brain
activity (the cerebral equivalent of a heart monitor) and shown a series of
images. An image or word the person recognizes presents a distinct brainwave
pattern when compared with an unrecognized image or word. The person cannot
consciously control this response.

The test does not care who you are, where you are from, your gender, religious
beliefs--anything other than whether you recognize a specific word or image.
All of the words and images can be given to the subject in advance without
affecting the test result.

When good people recognize bad things: It is obvious that a bank robber and an
FBI agent who investigates bank robberies would recognize many of the same
things. For that reason, additional images can be presented to subjects in
order to more precisely understand the context in which an object is
recognized. In an interactive testing system, this could be done
automatically, with the test adapting itself to probe more deeply into areas
of concern.

Does the test "read" someone's mind? The test does not determine what someone
is thinking, or even whether they are lying or not. It does, however,
determine if a person recognizes specific things. The test does not plant any
ideas or images into the subject's mind.

Here's an example of how the test might be used: Take one murder suspect, add
images only the murderer would know--faces of victims, locations, weapons,
etc.--and you should be able to separate the innocent from the potentially
guilty pretty quickly.

In a terrorist-screening scenario, you'd look for recognition of items related
to terrorist training and organizations. Score enough positives and you'd
become very interesting to the authorities.

This is not a technique for discovering things like whether you cheat on your
taxes or spouse (or both). It also won't tell whether you are a Republican,
Democrat, or something else, though it could determine whether you attended
one of the parties' national conventions (by testing you on what you would
have seen there).

The strengths: The test is excellent at clearing the innocent and, properly
given, can determine, if not always guilt, then at least what knowledge a
subject possesses, allowing for further investigation. The testing is
computerized, could require no human intervention, and is not racially,
ethnically, or culturally biased. Testing could take as little as 10 minutes,
but could be expanded to cover more items, thus adding the detail necessary to
separate security risks from non-risks.

The limitations: This technology has been tested and accepted by courts,
though additional testing certainly makes sense. There are also some technical
hurdles which today make the technique more suited for longer testing of
specific individuals (suspects) than quick testing of the general public
(screening).

This specifically relates to the devices used to record brain activity. With
digital signal processing, it should be possible to improve the
signal-to-noise ratio (which shortens the time needed for testing). Actually
creating the tests is a non-trivial matter, especially when screening for
potential problems rather than investigating an actual crime or incident.

---   ---   ---   ---   ---

Useless hypotheses, etc.:
 consciousness, phlogiston, philosophy, vitalism, mind, free will, qualia,
analog computing, cultural relativism, GAC, Cyc, Eliza, cryonics, individual
uniqueness, ego, human values, scientific relinquishment

We  move into a better future in proportion as science displaces superstition.














From auto301094 at hushmail.com  Fri Oct  5 14:59:23 2001
From: auto301094 at hushmail.com (auto301094 at hushmail.com)
Date: Fri,  5 Oct 2001 14:59:23 -0700
Subject: Anthrax...coincidence? 
Message-ID: <200110052159.f95LxNb79081@mailserver1c.hushmail.com>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp
Size: 2405 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From tcmay at got.net  Fri Oct  5 15:03:59 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 15:03:59 -0700
Subject: Anthrax found in Florida
In-Reply-To: <3BBE289D.6090509@dragonsweb.org>
Message-ID: 


On Friday, October 5, 2001, at 02:39 PM, James B. DiGriz wrote:
> Still don't feel the need for a gas mask.
>

Nor should you. They won't work for the obvious reasons, oft-discussed.

That E-Bay auctions are pricing them at $500 for a surplus Israeli mask 
shows P.T. Barnum was right.


--Tim May, Occupied America

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety 
deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759.




From oa at acm.org  Fri Oct  5 15:07:01 2001
From: oa at acm.org (Optimizzin Al-gorithm)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 15:07:01 -0700
Subject: firing a high-powered combat rifle in an airport could do more
  harm than  good
Message-ID: <20011005150701.A25206@navel.introspect>


[Formatted for legibility, line wrapping.  Please take the few moments
necessary to ensure posted material is readable.  KMSelf]

Notice how its not an evil "assault rifle" but a "combat rifle" now...

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-000079569oct05.story?coll=la%2Dheadlines%2Dcalifornia

    RESPONSE TO TERROR
    L.A., S.F. Airports to Get National Guard
    Safety: Soldiers armed with loaded M-16s will boost security,
    starting today. The rifles will be fired as a last resort, a
    spokesman says.

    By PETER Y. HONG, TIMES STAFF WRITER

    National Guard troops with M-16 assault rifles are to report for
    guard duty at Los Angeles International and San Francisco airports
    today, in a move Gov. Gray Davis called "a symbol of the changes
    that have occurred at airports to enhance passenger safety."

    But experts warn--and Guard officials acknowledge--that the show of
    force against terrorism must be executed with great care to avoid
    harming those it is meant to protect.

    John Reppert, a retired Army general who is a research center
    director at Harvard University's Kennedy School of Government, said
    the presence of the National Guard may be most important as a
    symbol.  "Frankly, in my opinion, the reason they are there is to
    restore confidence to the public," Reppert said. Carrying M-16s, for
    instance, is useful for intimidating wrong-doers and reassuring
    skittish travelers, he said. But actually firing a high-powered
    combat rifle in an airport terminal could do more harm than good.

    "I would not want soldiers to use an M-16 in a public place,"
    Reppert said. "Opening fire in an airport terminal is dramatically
    different from doing so in a village."

    The harder bullet used by the assault rifle is more likely to
    ricochet than a round fired from a pistol, Reppert said, which could
    harm bystanders.

    It might even be wise to keep the M-16s unloaded, Reppert said. "As
    a commander, I would be very nervous about a soldier carrying a
    loaded gun.  For one thing, he might drop it." It is also "unlikely
    people are going to come in and try to shoot their way to an
    airplane," he said.

    It is common for soldiers on guard duty to keep their guns unloaded,
    with ammunition ready in a pouch. The sentries guarding the USS Cole
    when it was bombed in October 2000 told the Washington Post they did
    not have ammunition in their guns, and did not think it made a
    difference in the surprise attack.

    But Maj. General Paul D. Monroe Jr., the top officer of the
    California National Guard, said the M-16s carried at LAX will be
    loaded. To fire the weapon, the soldier must charge it by pulling a
    handle and then release the safety mechanism, a process that takes
    about two seconds, Monroe said.

    Maj. Stanley Zezotarski, a California National Guard spokesman,
    noted, however, that Guard troops would fire their weapons only as a
    last resort, and would typically let armed airport police officers
    take the lead in situations where shots might be fired. Guard troops
    today use their weapons sparingly, he said, pointing out that 22
    shots were fired by the National Guard during the 1992 Los Angeles
    riots, though more than 20,000 were fired by the Guard in the 1965
    Watts riots.





From tcmay at got.net  Fri Oct  5 15:44:09 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 15:44:09 -0700
Subject: firing a high-powered combat rifle in an airport could do
  more harm than  good
In-Reply-To: <20011005150701.A25206@navel.introspect>
Message-ID: <7D64149C-B9E2-11D5-9404-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Friday, October 5, 2001, at 03:07 PM, Optimizzin Al-gorithm wrote:

> [Formatted for legibility, line wrapping.  Please take the few moments
> necessary to ensure posted material is readable.  KMSelf]
>
> Notice how its not an evil "assault rifle" but a "combat rifle" now...
>
> http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-000079569oct05.story?coll=la%2Dheadlines%2Dcalifornia
>
>

When the objects are in the hands of the proles, the sheeple, they are 
Evil, Black, Baby-Killing Assault Weapons. When they are in the hands of 
the staatspolizei, they are "M-16s."


In any case, having such rifles in crowded airline terminals is just 
theater: the intent is to make the sheeple feel safe, so that the 
sheeple will return to flying and spend money.

Better approaches to airline security are obvious. In terms of the arms, 
note that Israel doesn't use M-16s in airports (though they use them in 
their army, having mostly retired the Galil). The Uzi is a popular 
choice in Israel. The H&K MP5 in all of its variations is also popular.

More importantly, having several highly-trained marksmen is more useful 
that having a bunch of BDU-clad weekend warriors standing around with 
M-16s slung over their shoulders. Duh!

And, of course, Rounds Two and Three will not resemble Round One, so 
most of the current hysteria over airports will shift to something else.


>
--Tim May, Citizen-unit of of the once free United States
" The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood 
of patriots & tyrants. "--Thomas Jefferson, 1787




From ravage at ssz.com  Fri Oct  5 13:46:06 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 15:46:06 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: update.559 (fwd)
Message-ID: 



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 14:10:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: AIP listserver 
To: physnews-mailing at aip.org
Subject: update.559


PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE                         
The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News
Number 559  October 3, 2001   by Phillip F. Schewe, Ben Stein, and
James Riordon

NEW MODEL OF INTERGALACTIC MAGNETIC FIELDS. 
[SSZ: text deleted]

ULTRAVIOLET PROMPTS BACTERIAL TREK.  Evidence of the
[SSZ: text deleted]

BEC ON A CHIP.  First it was neutral atoms guided along a wire
(Update 416).  Then it was a beam of atoms steered over the surface
of a microchip (Update 486).  Now the latest feat of atom optics,
performed by a group at the Max Planck Institute in Munich, is the
creation of a Bose-Einstein condensate (BEC) of rubidium atoms in a
microscopic magnetic trap built into a lithographically patterned
chip.  Not only was this the fastest-formed BEC (it took only 700 ms
to form, faster even than the all-optical BEC method reporter earlier
this year see Update 545) but the condensate can be maneuvered
around the microchip a few microns above the surface (see Update
516); in fact the condensate was moved a distance of 1.6 mm.  This
capability opens up the possibility of numerous atomtronic
applications in interferometry, quantum computing, navigation,
lithography, holography, and entanglement experiments.  (Hansel et
al., Nature, 4 October 2001.)





From ingo.wies at aral.net  Fri Oct  5 08:48:54 2001
From: ingo.wies at aral.net (ingo.wies at aral.net)
Date: 05 Oct 2001 15:48:54 UT
Subject: Newsletter 01-10-05
Message-ID: <0000B489.3BBDF282@smtp.aral.net>



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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For removal instructions see bottom of this newsletter.
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Dear Sirs,

we would like to offer you today as follows -subject is to prior sales-:

Siemens S45                                    1000 pcs    DEM 521
Siemens S40                                     800 pcs    DEM 445
Siemens S35 silver edition                     1000 pcs    DEM 309
Nokia 8210 euro spec,                          1000 pcs    DEM 428
Nokia 3310 original                            1000 pcs    DEM 264
Nokia 6210                                     1000 pcs    DEM 439
Ericsson T29 original                          1000 pcs    DEM 309
Sony Z5 original                                700 pcs    DEM 503
Sony J5 original                                200 pcs    DEM 255
Motorola V66                                    600 pcs    DEM 756
Samsung A300                                    300 pcs    DEM 583
Motorola V50 light                              300 pcs    DEM 409

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Siemens Gigaset 3010 micro                     1000 pcs    DEM 225

THE NEW SIEMENS GIGASET 4000 SERIES IS NOW AVAILABLE!!!!!!!!

Please ask for prices.
                 
FOB Düsseldorf/Germany, subject is to prior sales.
        
Best regards


Kind regards

Ingo Wies
Aral Mobilfunk Partner KMT GmbH


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From tcmay at got.net  Fri Oct  5 15:53:45 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 15:53:45 -0700
Subject: firing a high-powered combat rifle in an airport could do
  moreharm  than  good
In-Reply-To: <3BBE34C3.C8807CAD@acmenet.net>
Message-ID: 


On Friday, October 5, 2001, at 03:31 PM, Steve Furlong wrote:

>>     .. in a move Gov. Gray Davis called "a symbol of the changes
>>     that have occurred ..."
>
> What changes, the shift to a police state?
>
> And wasn't there something about not using the military for police
> matters? Oh, that's right, this is an _emergency_, so it's ok.

It's called "Posse Commitatus," and it's clear that troops cannot be 
used on U.S. soil.

There have been a _few_ cases where regular armed forces were deployed 
in emergencies. Of course, the War of Northern Aggression was one 
massive terror action and the army was of course deployed.

The recent deployments in airports are of the National Guard. These 
units are under controls of _governors_ of states, and are not covered 
by Posse Comitatus. "Calling in the National Guard" has been common for 
many decades.

--Tim May

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From schear at lvcm.com  Fri Oct  5 16:06:53 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 16:06:53 -0700
Subject: Very nice article on Antennas and 802.11
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011005160614.03ae6fc8@pop3.lvcm.com>


http://www.byte.com/documents/s=1422/byt20010926s0002/1001_marshall.html

Antennas Enhance WLAN Security
By Trevor Marshall

October 1, 2001

Antennas are most often used to increase the range of WLAN (wireless
LAN) systems, but proper antenna selection can also enhance the
security of your WLAN. A properly chosen and positioned antenna can
reduce the signal leaking out of your workspace, and make interception
extremely difficult.

In this article, I analyze the signal of different antenna designs,
and how the positioning of the user's antenna makes a difference in
signal reception.






From tcmay at got.net  Fri Oct  5 16:50:57 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 16:50:57 -0700
Subject: sigs
In-Reply-To: <3BBE4326.ADA6BA52@acmenet.net>
Message-ID: 


On Friday, October 5, 2001, at 04:32 PM, Steve Furlong wrote:
> By the way, I like the sig you used on your message. A bit lengthy, but
> worth the read.

It's quite old, from around 1996-7 or so. The message is still 
apt...perhaps more apt, as we race toward erasing all constitutional 
rights.

I'm just playing with software which rotates the .sig I use. I've added 
a few, and they rotate.



--Tim May, Corralitos, California
Quote of the Month: "It is said that there are no atheists in foxholes; 
perhaps there are no true libertarians in times of terrorist attacks." 
--Cathy Young, "Reason Magazine," both enemies of liberty.




From honig at sprynet.com  Fri Oct  5 17:01:37 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 17:01:37 -0700
Subject: OT: Could you survive? advanced survival skills test
In-Reply-To: <200110052120.f95LKlq48552@mailserver1.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011005170137.0096db10@pop.sprynet.com>


At 09:20 PM 10/5/01 +0000, auto301094 at hushmail.com wrote:
>FOOD
>1.  List 12 edible USA plants.
>2.  List 8 edible tropical plants.

This is what happens when you make a survival test for the 
whole planet ---who the fsck needs to know what tropical
plants to avoid *and* has to worry about the livers of
polar bears? 

If you're in Wisconsin you don't have to think about water, but
you have to think about freezing.  Compare to SoCal.




From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org  Fri Oct  5 14:11:06 2001
From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 17:11:06 -0400
Subject: "HNC Developing New Air Security Software"
References: 
Message-ID: <3BBE21EA.7090606@dragonsweb.org>


Xeni Jardin wrote:

> The Reuters story follows, and the HNC corporate press release
> announcing the project is here:
> 
>  useaction=ShowRelease>
> 
> press release excerpt:
> 
> < records and other related data, the predictive software could identify
> suspicious transactions. Flagged information can be immediately
> investigated by experts to increase security and travel efficiency....
> With the ability to instantly analyze all available structured data and
> unstructured data, airlines could proactively take critical action
> related to passenger safety.
> 
> "By using high-end risk analytics and decisioning engines, we can help
> airlines, airports and law enforcement agencies identify patterns that
> warrant further investigation - without intrusive security measures,"
> explained John Mutch, chief executive officer of HNC. "Much of HNC's
> technology research has been funded over the years by defense and
> intelligence organizations. We're delighted to put this technology to
> use to increase traveler safety."
> 
> HNC's Critical Action software, which uses anonymous mathematical
> algorithms that cannot be reverse engineered, identifies patterns in
> data that would not be noticed using any other method. HNC's technology
> can scan structured and unstructured data, detect patterns, categorize,
> prioritize and automatically route information to relevant security
> agency personnel.>>
> 
> --XJ
> 

I'm dubious about the "anonymous mathematical algorithms that cannot be

reverse engineered" part, and I'm skeptical about the "we're gonna cork

up the mind of God and bottle it for those worthy/rich enough to afford

it" aspect. Sounds like snake oil to me.

Data mining, pattern-recognition, AI, ubiquitous surveillance, etc. are

just tools. The biggest danger, beyond flawed premises in the code, such 

as, for instance, ignoring second-order and higher observer loop effects,

or  beyond willful misuse, is GIGO. The central issues are still 

political, anyway. None of this matters if I'm not bothering you and you

come fuck with me, in other words. And, hey, two can play the same game. 

Thank you, Mr. Felsenstein, et al.

Choate, feel free to forward to psychohistory.

jbdigirz








From bwild at earthlink.net  Fri Oct  5 15:32:36 2001
From: bwild at earthlink.net (Bob Wilder)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 17:32:36 -0500
Subject: [MilSurplus] Sec 1062 of S.1416
Message-ID: 

A message appeared on the list indicating we were in trouble because all
military stuff would no longer be available.  Itlookls like it was a scare
tactic
as can be seen by reading the entire contents of this section. Basically they
are talking about weapons.

SEC. 1062. AUTHORITY TO ENSURE DEMILITARIZATION OF
SIGNIFICANT MILITARY EQUIPMENT FORMERLY OWNED BY THE
DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE.

     (a) PROHIBITION- It is unlawful for any person to possess significant
military equipment
     formerly owned by the Department of Defense unless--

          (1) the military equipment has been demilitarized in accordance
with standards
          prescribed by the Secretary of Defense;

          (2) the person is in possession of the military equipment for the
purpose of
          demilitarizing the equipment pursuant to a Federal Government
contract; or

          (3) the person is specifically authorized by law or regulation to
possess the military
          equipment.

     (b) REFERRAL TO ATTORNEY GENERAL- The Secretary of Defense shall
notify the
     Attorney General of any potential violation of subsection (a) of which
the Secretary becomes
     aware.

     (c) AUTHORITY TO REQUIRE DEMILITARIZATION- (1) The Attorney General may
     require any person who, in violation of subsection (a), is in
possession of significant military
     equipment formerly owned by the Department of Defense--

          (A) to demilitarize the equipment;

          (B) to have the equipment demilitarized by a third party; or

          (C) to return the equipment to the Federal Government for
demilitarization.

     (2) When the demilitarization of significant military equipment is
carried out pursuant to
     subparagraph (A) or (B) of paragraph (1), an officer or employee of
the United States
     designated by the Attorney General shall have the right to confirm, by
inspection or other
     means authorized by the Attorney General, that the equipment has been
demilitarized.

     (3) If significant military equipment is not demilitarized or returned
to the Federal Government
     for demilitarization as required under paragraph (1) within a
reasonable period after the
     Attorney General notifies the person in possession of the equipment of
the requirement to do
     so, the Attorney General may request that a court of the United States
issue a warrant
     authorizing the seizure of the military equipment in the same manner
as is provided for a search
     warrant. If the court determines that there is probable cause to
believe that the person is in
     possession of significant military equipment in violation of
subsection (a), the court shall issue a
     warrant authorizing the seizure of such equipment.

     (d) DEMILITARIZATION OF EQUIPMENT- (1) The Attorney General shall
transfer any
     military equipment returned to the Federal Government or seized
pursuant to subsection (c) to
     the Department of Defense for demilitarization.

     (2) If the person in possession of significant military equipment
obtained the equipment in
     accordance with any other provision of law, the Secretary of Defense
shall bear all costs of
     transportation and demilitarization of the equipment and shall either--

          (A) return the equipment to the person upon completion of the
demilitarization; or

          (B) reimburse the person for the cost incurred by that person to
acquire the equipment
          if the Secretary determines that the cost to demilitarize and
return the property to the
          person would be prohibitive.

     (e) ESTABLISHMENT OF DEMILITARIZATION STANDARDS- (1) The Secretary of
     Defense shall prescribe regulations regarding the demilitarization of
military equipment.

     (2) The regulations shall be designed to ensure that--

          (A) the equipment, after demilitarization, does not constitute a
significant risk to public
          safety and does not have--

               (i) a significant capability for use as a weapon; or

               (ii) a uniquely military capability; and

          (B) any person from whom private property is taken for public use
under this section
          receives just compensation for the taking of the property.

     (3) The regulations shall, at a minimum, define--

          (A) the classes of significant military equipment requiring
demilitarization before
          disposal; and

          (B) what constitutes demilitarization for each class of
significant military equipment.

     (f) DEFINITION OF SIGNIFICANT MILITARY EQUIPMENT- In this section, the
term
     `significant military equipment' means equipment that has a capability
described in clause (i) or
     (ii) of subsection (e)(2) and--

          (1) is a defense article listed on the United States Munitions
List maintained under
          section 38 of the Arms Export Control Act (22 U.S.C. 2778) that
is designated on that
          list as significant military equipment; or

          (2) is designated by the Secretary of Defense under the
regulations prescribed under
          subsection (e) as being equipment that it is necessary in the
interest of public safety to
          demilitarize before disposal by the United States.

73
Bob Wilder, AF2HD / AFA2HD
TSgt, USAF (Retired)
6032 Idlemoore Court
Theodore, Alabama 36582-4036
(251)653-5274
***************************************************

Region 2 MARS (REMOVED PER ORDER OF RMD)
  

***************************************************
This message certified virus free by using
AVG ver. 6.0 antivirus software. See
 for your copy
of the software and protect yourself and friends.

---
Submissions milsurplus at qth.net

----- End forwarded message -----

-- 
	Dave Emery N1PRE,  die at die.com  DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass. 
PGP fingerprint = 2047/4D7B08D1 DE 6E E1 CC 1F 1D 96 E2  5D 27 BD B0 24 88 C3 18




From Jaydachickmagnet at aol.com  Fri Oct  5 14:38:39 2001
From: Jaydachickmagnet at aol.com (Jaydachickmagnet at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 17:38:39 EDT
Subject: yo can i get a valid credit card number
Message-ID: 

read the subject
-------------- next part --------------
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From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org  Fri Oct  5 14:39:41 2001
From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 17:39:41 -0400
Subject: Anthrax found in Florida
References: <73DD9678-B9CD-11D5-9404-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <3BBE289D.6090509@dragonsweb.org>


Tim May wrote:

> On Friday, October 5, 2001, at 12:51 PM, Anonymous wrote:
> 
>> A man in Florida has been infected with anthrax, according to the CDC.
>>
>> 
>>
>> But don't freak out, they say. Don't buy a gas mask or antibiotics.
>> Don't panic. Get back in your cubicle. Keep working. Stay at your
>> desk.
>>
>> Under no circumstances should you try to find some ciprofloxacin, an
>> antibiotic which might be useful in treating inhalational anthrax.
>>
>> 
>>
> 
> First case of inhalational anthrax reported in the U.S. in over 25 
> years, CNN reported, and yet it is happening NOW?
> 
> The news reports are that the man may have been exposed during a visit 
> to North Carolina...they're checking on it. However, consider the 
> _SECOND_ odd coincidence: the man is from the same part of Florida 
> (Lantana, or somesuch) that the WTC pilots were training at.
> 
> One coincidence is just that. Two...
> 
> 


It is peculiar timing, but they are looking harder for stuff like this 
now, too. Probably some mis- or undiagnosed cases have gone unreported. 
The CDC bulletin does mention a case in Texas earlier in the year.

I'm just outside the largest military installation on the East Coast. It 
went on a major security tightening a month or so before the WTC attack, 
  so it looks like somebody had reason to expect something..

Still don't feel the need for a gas mask.

jbdigriz








From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Fri Oct  5 18:09:45 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 18:09:45 -0700
Subject: PATRIOT bill, Leahy's USA
In-Reply-To: <200110052327.f95NRsX67802@mailserver1.hushmail.com>; from
  citizenq@hushmail.com on Fri, Oct 05, 2001 at 11:27:54PM +0000
References: <200110052327.f95NRsX67802@mailserver1.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: <20011005180945.D28943@navel.introspect>


on Fri, Oct 05, 2001 at 11:27:54PM +0000, citizenq at hushmail.com
(citizenq at hushmail.com) wrote:
> This shit just keeps on rolling, last week was only round 1, not the
> bout.  What's up phreadom phighters? - it's been kind of quiet around
> here regarding the latest legislative activities.

I searched for 'terrorism' at the Thomas online legislative index a
couple of days ago.  Over 50 items returned.

Peace.

--
Karsten M. Self         http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?              Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                    Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA!  http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                      http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]




From honig at sprynet.com  Fri Oct  5 18:12:10 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 18:12:10 -0700
Subject: Anthrax found in Florida
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3BBE289D.6090509@dragonsweb.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011005181210.0096f7c0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 03:03 PM 10/5/01 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>On Friday, October 5, 2001, at 02:39 PM, James B. DiGriz wrote:
>> Still don't feel the need for a gas mask.
>>
>
>Nor should you. They won't work for the obvious reasons, oft-discussed.
>

They can be useful.  Sarin, being volitile (gone in half an hour) mostly
causes injury via inhalation.  VX, being nonvolitile (2 weeks), causes
injury mostly by contact.  

The Israelis *also* sealed a room, and would sit in
that room with masks on.  Since buildings exchange gasses slowly with
the outside, they could survive a cloud that dissipates.  

YMMV.




From Sophia at Jouvet.com  Fri Oct  5 09:17:16 2001
From: Sophia at Jouvet.com (Sophia at Jouvet.com)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 18:17:16 +0200
Subject: Fw: Le nouveau n de l'adult business...
Message-ID: 



Salut ,

Je pense que �a peut aussi t'int�resser!

@+
Sophia

> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bernard
> To: sophia at jouvet.com
> Sent: Friday, October 05, 2001 1:32 PM
> Subject: Le nouveau n� de l'adult business...
> 
> 
> Bonjour Sophia,
> 
> Et voici le petit nouveau.
> Sorti tout droit du futur. Il pr�sente des innovations qui ne laisserons pas indiff�rents les webmasters de tous poils.
> 
> Cr�e par une �quipe d'adult webmasters fran�ais, Sexe Affiliation est un m�lange entre un programme d'affiliation pour sites adultes et fournisseur de contenus via kit de connexion (comme Carpediem que tu connais bien mais en mieux pay� !), apparemment leur zone membre est tr�s compl�te, live en fran�ais, plusieurs centaines de milliers d'images et de vid�os, largement bon pour faire un tmc correct.
> 
> Leur politique : Ont prend tous nos sites, dit 'de transformation' (sites qui nous servent � faire � faire t�l�charger nos kits de connexion), ont les mets tous dans une grosse marmite(sexe affiliation) afin qu'ils puissent �tre utilis�s par tout le monde pour transformer leurs clients, en contrepartie, on est r�mun�r� sur les heures de connexions g�n�r�es par ceux ci, un peu comme si ont avais  des programmes d'affiliation sur nos sites. En plus ils mesurent la rentabilit� de ceux-ci et nous proposent donc de renvoyer nos flux clients vers la ou �a rapporte bien plus.
> 
> Bref en s'inscrivant, on ne s'inscrit pas juste pour promouvoir deux ou trois sites, mais tous ceux inscrit comme sdt sur leur systeme, quel qu'en soit le nombre. de quoi promener nos visiteurs, si tu vois ce que je veut dire.
> 
> Le petit moins de leur truc, c'est que pour l'instant y ont peu de sdt, mais bon �a devrait pas tarder � changer.
> 
> En parlant de �a, le truc � faire serait de cloner tes 3 sites et de les coller dessus comme �a, je t'envoie des flux par leur interm�diaire, et en plus, toi tu prend des sous sur les quelques milliers de sessions que je t'envoie.
> 
> Ah, y ont aussi un syst�me d'affiliation � 5 niveau de profondeur, qui justifie que l'on s'y int�resse de tr�s pr�s, � mon avis dans tr�s peu de temps ils devraient prendre les sommets. y'a trop moyens !
> 
> http://www.sex-affiliation.com?id=228
> Bipbip...
> 
> @+chao
> Bernard
> 
> 




From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org  Fri Oct  5 15:21:13 2001
From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 18:21:13 -0400
Subject: The Coming Crypto Winter
References: <534B2333-B9B5-11D5-9404-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <3BBE3259.6030102@dragonsweb.org>


Tim May wrote:

> On Friday, October 5, 2001, at 12:24 PM, John Young wrote:
> 
>> Walter Mossberg, WSJ technology columnist, wrote
>> yesterday about the need for the Internet coming to be
>> treated like other forms of communication, that now
>> is the time for its special treatment to end. He said
>> to get rid of pseudonyms and anonymity, that people
>> need to own up to who they are. Implied that national
>> security is at stake.
>>
> 
> The sheeple and the scribblers are falling all over themselves to 
> sacrifice liberty.
> 
> Mossberg, Young, and all of the other recent enemies of liberty don't 
> understand that the right to keep private diaries, to speak in whispers, 
> to draw the curtains, to meet in private, and to post anonymous 
> handbills goes back to the founding of the nation.
> 
> "Time for the special treatment to end" is a display of ignorance. 
> Perhaps he should reread some of the pseudonymous writings in the 
> Federalist Papers.
> 
> I would write more, but what's the point? If they haven't grokked the 
> essence of liberty before, our words can't help. Only technology can.
> 
> As predicted by many of us over the years, the "Crypto Winter" is coming.
> 
> 
> --Tim May, Corralitos, California
> Quote of the Month: "It is said that there are no atheists in foxholes; 
> perhaps there are no true libertarians in times of terrorist attacks." 
> --Cathy Young, "Reason Magazine," both enemies of liberty.
> 
> 

Ain't gonna happen. Too late, the cat's out of the bag. People will get 
a grip. Meanwhile, to hell with wars on (some) abstract concepts.

How many thousands of years ago were (some) whores and (some) thieves 
outlawed?

jbdigriz

p.s. Tim, intended to send to the list, not you in particular. My bad. 
Damn, twice today I did that.




From schear at lvcm.com  Fri Oct  5 18:22:38 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 18:22:38 -0700
Subject: Rethinking the design of the Internet: The end to end arguments
  vs. the  brave new world"
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011005181839.033e6ba0@pop3.lvcm.com>


"Rethinking the design of the Internet:
The end to end arguments vs. the brave new world"

Marjory S. Blumenthal Computer Science & Telecommunications Board, NRC
mblument at nas.edu
David D. Clark M.I.T. Lab for Computer Science ddc at lcs.mit.edu

A version of this paper to appear in the ACM Transactions on Internet
Technology
A version also to appear in Communications Policy in Transition: The
Internet and Beyond,
edited by Benjamin Compaine and Shane Greenstein, MIT Press, Sept. 2001

Abstract

This paper looks at the Internet and the changing set of requirements
for the Internet that are emerging as it becomes more commercial, more
oriented towards the consumer, and used for a wider set of purposes. We
discuss a set of principles that have guided the design of the Internet,
called the end to end arguments, and we conclude that there is a risk
that the range of new requirements now emerging could have the
consequence of compromising the Internet's original design principles.
Were this to happen, the Internet might lose some of its key features,
in particular its ability to support new and unanticipated applications.
We link this possible outcome to a number of trends: the rise of new
stakeholders in the Internet, in particular Internet Service Providers;
new government interests; the changing motivations of the growing user
base; and the tension between the demand for trustworthy overall
operation and the inability to trust the behavior of individual users.

Introduction

The end to end arguments are a set of design principles that
characterize (among other things) how the Internet has been designed.
These principles were first articulated in the early 1980s, and they
have served as an architectural model in countless design debates for
almost 20 years.

The end to end arguments concern how application requirements should be
met in a system. When a general purpose system (for example, a network
or an operating system) is built, and specific applications are then
built using this system (for example, e-mail or the World Wide Web over
the Internet), there is a question of how these specific applications
and their required supporting services should be designed. The end to
end arguments suggest that specific application-level functions usually
cannot, and preferably should not, be built into the lower levels of the
system-the core of the network. The reason why was stated as follows in
the original paper:

"The function in question can completely and correctly be implemented
only with the knowledge and help of the application standing at the
endpoints of the communications system. Therefore, providing that
questioned function as a feature of the communications systems itself is
not possible."

In the original paper, the primary example of this end to end reasoning
about application functions is the assurance of accurate and reliable
transfer of information across the network. Even if any one lower level
subsystem, such as a network, tries hard to ensure reliability, data can
be lost or corrupted after it leaves that subsystem. The ultimate check
of correct execution has to be at the application level, at the
endpoints of the transfer. There are many examples of this observation
in practice.

Even if parts of an application-level function can potentially be
implemented in the core of the network, the end to end arguments state
that one should resist this approach if possible. There are a number of
advantages of moving application-specific functions up out of the core
of the network and providing only general-purpose system services there.

o The complexity of the core network is reduced, which reduces costs and
facilitates future upgrades to the network.

o Generality in the network increases the chances that a new application
can be added without having to change the core of the network.

o Applications do not have to depend on the successful implementation
and operation of application-specific services in the network, which may
increase their reliability.

Of course, the end to end arguments are not offered as an absolute.
There are functions that can only be implemented in the core of the
network, and issues of efficiency and performance may motivate
core-located features. Features that enhance popular applications can be
added to the core of the network in such a way that they do not prevent
other applications from functioning. But the bias toward movement of
function "up" from the core and "out" to the edge node has served very
well as a central Internet design principle.

As a consequence of the end to end arguments, the Internet has evolved
to have certain characteristics. The functions implemented "in" the
Internet-by the routers that forward packets-have remained rather simple
and general. The bulk of the functions that implement specific
applications, such as e-mail, the World Wide Web, multi-player games,
and so on, have been implemented in software on the computers attached
to the "edge" of the Net. The edge-orientation for applications and
comparative simplicity within the Internet together have facilitated the
creation of new applications, and they are part of the context for
innovation on the Internet.

Moving away from end to end

For its first 20 years, much of the Internet's design has been shaped by
the end to end arguments. To a large extent, the core of the network
provides a very general data transfer service, which is used by all the
different applications running over it. The individual applications have
been designed in different ways, but mostly in ways that are sensitive
to the advantages of the end to end design approach. However, over the
last few years, a number of new requirements have emerged for the
Internet and its applications. To certain stakeholders, these various
new requirements might best be met through the addition of new mechanism
in the core of the network. This perspective has, in turn, raised
concerns among those who wish to preserve the benefits of the original
Internet design.

[One particularly civil liberty oriented except--]

The rise of third-party involvement: An increasingly visible issue is the 
demand by third
parties to interpose themselves between communicating end-points, 
irrespective of the desires of
the ends. Third parties may include officials of organizations (e.g., 
corporate network or ISP
administrators implementing organizational policies or other oversight) or 
officials of
governments, whose interests may range from taxation to law enforcement and 
public safety.
When end-points want to communicate, but some third party demands to 
interpose itself into the
path without their agreement, the end to end arguments do not provide an 
obvious framework to
reason about this situation. We must abandon the end to end arguments, 
reject the demand of a
third party because it does not "fit" our technical design principles, or 
find another design
approach that preserves the power of the end to end arguments as much as 
possible.


Continued at:

http://www.ana.lcs.mit.edu/anaweb/PDF/Rethinking_2001.pdf




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Fri Oct  5 15:31:31 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 18:31:31 -0400
Subject: firing a high-powered combat rifle in an airport could do
  moreharm  than  good
References: <20011005150701.A25206@navel.introspect>
Message-ID: <3BBE34C3.C8807CAD@acmenet.net>


>     .. in a move Gov. Gray Davis called "a symbol of the changes
>     that have occurred ..."

What changes, the shift to a police state?

And wasn't there something about not using the military for police
matters? Oh, that's right, this is an _emergency_, so it's ok.


-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Fri Oct  5 15:42:25 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 18:42:25 -0400
Subject: Gun show friggin loophole
Message-ID: <3BBE3751.2A42B910@acmenet.net>


A Wired article by Jeffrey Benner ("No Smoking Gun in Terror Bill")
(http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,47286,00.html) uses the
phrase "gun show loophole" quite a few times, but doesn't mention the
Second Amendment (nor even the Ninth and Tenth) even once. No mention of
how "closing the loophole" would prevent any domestic terrorism. No
quotes from gun rights people but plenty from gun grabbers.

Perhaps this would be a good opportunity for Declan to emphasize that
the opinions and obvious biases of some ill-informed, probably inbred,
journalists are not necessarily the opinions of the publishers or other
journalists.

-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Fri Oct  5 18:50:20 2001
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 18:50:20
Subject: Your Bid 4 Placement Account      
Message-ID: <200110060222.TAA29305@toad.com>

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From nobody at dizum.com  Fri Oct  5 10:30:19 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Fri,  5 Oct 2001 19:30:19 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Who wants to be a millionaire
Message-ID: 


David Honig wrote:
> At 06:10 PM 10/4/01 +0200, Nomen Nescio wrote:
> > It would be necessary to reduce the criteria used by the purchaser into
> > algorithmic form.  Write a program which would take the data and produce
> > a yes/no answer. 
>
> I don't think this is possible --the inputs (e.g., scan
> newsfeeds for "bin Laden" and "funeral"; or require
> a weekly warm-biometric check from the dude) could always be spoofed.

Assuming that a human trusted third party could check the data if he
had access to it, a program could do so as well.

Perhaps the assumption is that the TTP has some secret information that
will allow him to check the seller's data for validity.  For example,
if the seller is providing floor plans of a building, the TTP may have
some partial information about the floor plans which he can compare for
consistency.  If the seller doesn't know what information the TTP has,
it is hard for him to spoof.

This can be simulated by using a secure multi-party computation in
place of the TTP.  The seller inputs his data, the buyer inputs his
secret partial information, and they jointly run a calculation to see
if the seller's data is internally consistent and matches the partial
information of the buyer.  The only output is a single boolean yes/no.

Steve Furlong writes:
> But BLD would still be able to cheat the seller, wouldn't they? The
> account number might be valid but unfunded, or any variation on that.
> I'm looking for a way for each party to be sure he gets what he wants,
> with no trusted third party and no recourse to government.

Providing guaranteed payment can be done but will ultimately require
trusting the bank, as any payment system does.

The buyer and seller could jointly create a sequestered account,
funded by the buyer, such that each party privately gives the bank a
password for access and both passwords must be supplied for withdrawal.
Then the buyer can give the password to the seller as his payment.
The account can be such that if it is not accessed within a specified
time, the contents revert to the buyer's account.

The buyer can't cheat and access the account without the password
belonging to the seller.  The buyer can reveal a hash of his password
in advance and the seller can get the bank to verify that it is correct.
As the buyer's password is revealed a bit at a time during the exchange
of secrets, he uses a ZK proof to show that it corresponds to the
committed hash, as is standard in exchange of secrets protocols.

They are trusting the bank, but it is not involved in verifying the
conditions for successful completion of the transaction.  Its sole
responsibility is managing transfers of money in a reliable and
trustworthy way, and that degree of mutual trust will always be necessary
for any electronic payment system.




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Fri Oct  5 16:32:54 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 19:32:54 -0400
Subject: firing a high-powered combat rifle in an airport could
  domoreharm   than  good
References: 
Message-ID: <3BBE4326.ADA6BA52@acmenet.net>


Tim May wrote:
> 
> On Friday, October 5, 2001, at 03:31 PM, Steve Furlong wrote:
...
> > And wasn't there something about not using the military for police
> > matters? Oh, that's right, this is an _emergency_, so it's ok.
> 
> It's called "Posse Commitatus," and it's clear that troops cannot be
> used on U.S. soil.

Yah, I know. You're right, though, it should be spelled out, not only
for the non-USians on the list but for the products of the modern
American educational system. (Of which I am one, but I'm trying to
overcome it.)


> The recent deployments in airports are of the National Guard. These
> units are under controls of _governors_ of states, and are not covered
> by Posse Comitatus. "Calling in the National Guard" has been common for
> many decades.

Legally, you're right. But since the Guard units are partially trained
and equipped with federal money and operate under federal strictures, I
don't generally distinguish between state and federal military forces.

And of course Gov Davis, like so many others, are "fighting the last
war". The organized terrorists won't be going after planes for the
second punch, though half-witted copycats will. And the copycats could
be stopped by allowing off-duty senior combat soldiers to carry guns on
planes, but of course that would lessen the need for centralized power
and will never be countenanced.


By the way, I like the sig you used on your message. A bit lengthy, but
worth the read.

-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Fri Oct  5 16:37:19 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 19:37:19 -0400
Subject: firing a high-powered combat rifle in an airport could
  domoreharm   than  good
References: 
  <3BBE4326.ADA6BA52@acmenet.net>
Message-ID: <3BBE442F.C0E081D0@acmenet.net>


Steve Furlong wrote:

> > The recent deployments in airports are of the National Guard. These
> > units are under controls of _governors_ of states, and are not covered
> > by Posse Comitatus. "Calling in the National Guard" has been common for
> > many decades.
> 
> Legally, you're right. But since the Guard units are partially trained
> and equipped with federal money and operate under federal strictures, I
> don't generally distinguish between state and federal military forces.

Damn, sent that by mistake while editing.

I'm also concerned about the effect of "routinely" having uniformed
soldiers out standing guard or running patrols or whatever. Even if
they're National Guard rather than federal troops, it accustoms the
public to seeing soldiers on the streets, on the borders, in the
airports, everywhere. That makes the next step, federal troops
everywhere, more likely and less noticeable.


-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From mati99 at interklub.pl  Fri Oct  5 10:44:27 2001
From: mati99 at interklub.pl (Mateusz Ziolek)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 19:44:27 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: REMOVE
In-Reply-To: <0000B489.3BBDF282@smtp.aral.net>
Message-ID: 




________________
|Pozdrawiam    |
|Mateusz Ziolek|
|ICQ #35805536 |
|______________|

On 5 Oct 2001 ingo.wies at aral.net wrote:

> 
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From reeza at hawaii.rr.com  Fri Oct  5 23:18:24 2001
From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 20:18:24 -1000
Subject: firing a high-powered combat rifle in an airport could do
  moreharm  than  good
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3BBE34C3.C8807CAD@acmenet.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011005201400.02d4f5a0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com>


At 03:53 PM 10/5/01 -0700, Tim May wrote:
 >On Friday, October 5, 2001, at 03:31 PM, Steve Furlong wrote:

 >> And wasn't there something about not using the military for police
 >> matters? Oh, that's right, this is an _emergency_, so it's ok.
 >
 >It's called "Posse Commitatus," and it's clear that troops cannot be
 >used on U.S. soil.

True.

 >There have been a _few_ cases where regular armed forces were deployed
 >in emergencies. Of course, the War of Northern Aggression was one
 >massive terror action and the army was of course deployed.

Also true.

 >The recent deployments in airports are of the National Guard. These
 >units are under controls of _governors_ of states, and are not covered
 >by Posse Comitatus. "Calling in the National Guard" has been common for
 >many decades.

True as well - until such time as the Nat.Guard is federalized (which
can and does happen with ease bordering on routine ho-hummery).  If the
Nat.Guard is used for domestic actions once they are federalized....

Reese

ps- your .sig was longer than your post.




From ussearchreports at yahoo.com  Fri Oct  5 20:27:59 2001
From: ussearchreports at yahoo.com (U.S. Search Reports)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 20:27:59 -0700
Subject: FREE SEARCH! It's Your Money Claim It Now!
Message-ID: <200110060247.TAA15908@ecotone.toad.com>

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From: webmaster at entertain123.com (Entertain 123)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 20:31:13 -0600
Subject: Comapnion Bar 
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From tcmay at got.net  Fri Oct  5 21:11:21 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 21:11:21 -0700
Subject: Anthrax...coincidence?
In-Reply-To: <4ED3DBC9-B9D1-11D5-9404-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <32DDAD28-BA10-11D5-9404-0050E439C473@got.net>


This just in: (a very long URL...be careful cutting and pasting or 
clicking)

http://quote.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?ptitle=Top%20World%20News&s1=blk&tp=ad_topright_topworld&
T=markets_bfgcgi_content99.ht&s2=ad_right1_windex&bt=ad_position1_windex&middle=
ad_frame2_windex&s=AO73EbxYxQ2VudGVy

"10/05 10:32
Center for Disease Control Investigating Second Anthrax Case
By Chris Dolmetsch


Fort Lee, New Jersey, Oct. 5 (Bloomberg) -- The Center for Disease 
Control is investigating a second case of anthrax poisoning in Florida, 
financial network CNBC reported, citing NBC News.

One man is already hospitalized in critical condition in a Florida 
hospital with the deadly disease, CNBC said. The disease is not 
contagious between people. No further details were given.
"

Two cases of anthrax in Florida, if this is true, when there have been 
very few cases in the past 100 years. (And even fewer pulmonary cases...)

And right where the WTC pilots were living and training.

(BTW, the incubation period for anthrax is up to 60 days...)


--Tim May
"Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and
strangled with her panty hose,  is somehow morally superior to a woman 
explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound"




From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Fri Oct  5 21:13:38 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 21:13:38 -0700
Subject: OT: Could you survive? advanced survival skills test
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011005170137.0096db10@pop.sprynet.com>; from
  honig@sprynet.com on Fri, Oct 05, 2001 at 05:01:37PM -0700
References: <200110052120.f95LKlq48552@mailserver1.hushmail.com>
  <3.0.6.32.20011005170137.0096db10@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <20011005211338.A30493@navel.introspect>


on Fri, Oct 05, 2001 at 05:01:37PM -0700, David Honig (honig at sprynet.com)
wrote:
> At 09:20 PM 10/5/01 +0000, auto301094 at hushmail.com wrote:
> >FOOD
> >1.  List 12 edible USA plants.
> >2.  List 8 edible tropical plants.
>
> This is what happens when you make a survival test for the
> whole planet ---who the fsck needs to know what tropical
> plants to avoid *and* has to worry about the livers of
> polar bears?
>
> If you're in Wisconsin you don't have to think about water, but
> you have to think about freezing.  Compare to SoCal.

Try Death Valley in the winter time.  You have to worry about both.

--
Karsten M. Self         http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?              Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                    Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA!  http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                      http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Fri Oct  5 21:14:57 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 21:14:57 -0700
Subject: firing a high-powered combat rifle in an airport could do
  moreharm  than  good
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3BBE34C3.C8807CAD@acmenet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011005210412.034fc250@idiom.com>


At 03:53 PM 10/05/2001 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>On Friday, October 5, 2001, at 03:31 PM, Steve Furlong wrote:
>>And wasn't there something about not using the military for police
>>matters? Oh, that's right, this is an _emergency_, so it's ok.
>
>It's called "Posse Commitatus," and it's clear that troops cannot be used 
>on U.S. soil.
>
>There have been a _few_ cases where regular armed forces were deployed in 
>emergencies. Of course, the War of Northern Aggression was one massive 
>terror action and the army was of course deployed.
>
>The recent deployments in airports are of the National Guard. These units 
>are under controls of _governors_ of states, and are not covered by Posse 
>Comitatus. "Calling in the National Guard" has been common for many decades.

There was a recent article on Posse Comitatus by some military lawyer
that was mentioned on some list in the last month.
IANAJAG, so I don't know how valid it is, but he asserts, probably 
correctly, that:

1) Posse Comitatus is just a *law*, not a Constitutional clause,
         not a court decision - Congress made it, so they can change it,
         any time 51% of them think it's a politically useful thing to do,
         as long as they can talk the President into it,
         and most Presidents aren't all that averse to being given more power.

2) In practice, Posse Comitatus has evolved into a procedural issue,
         not a separation-of-powers issue - the military can't be used
         for domestic law enforcement, at all, for any reason, ever,
         unless they're asked properly on the approriate 3-part-carbon form,
         with the blanks filled in neatly and a signature at the bottom,
         in which case it's just fine if the military brass agree.
         The War On Politically Incorrect Drugs has a lot to do with this,
         but it's been happening anyway.

3) P.C. isn't even an ancient law - it evolved after the War Between The States
         (you could look up the date, I think 1870s).
         So it didn't apply to Northern Aggression, whether you accept the
         Nationalist-Manifest-Destiny position that the Southerners
         were a bunch of rebels who should be stomped down to protect unity,
         which wasn't bothered by legal niceties that weren't written yet,
         or the pro-independence position that free people don't need to rebel,
         they can simply secede, in which case the Confederacy was a foreign
         country that the Union Army was invading, and P.C. wouldn't have 
applied
         even if it had been written by then.

Back in the 60s, during the race riots, it was pretty common to have
National Guard troops on the streetcorners to intimidate blacks.
Even in Wilmington, Delaware.  Sometimes they were also used on
student protestors.  Not the kind of thing you'd expect in a free country,
but this was America.




From auto301094 at hushmail.com  Fri Oct  5 14:20:47 2001
From: auto301094 at hushmail.com (auto301094 at hushmail.com)
Date: Fri,  5 Oct 2001 21:20:47 +0000
Subject: OT: Could you survive? advanced survival skills test
Message-ID: <200110052120.f95LKlq48552@mailserver1.hushmail.com>

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From Null at null.com  Fri Oct  5 18:31:16 2001
From: Null at null.com (Null at null.com)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 21:31:16 -0400
Subject: Another Golden Moment of law enforcement 
Message-ID: 


Any way to recapture this moment?

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/10/06/wbush106.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/10/06/ixhome.html
Blunder puts FBI suspects on internet

"A CONFIDENTIAL FBI list of 370 people suspected of
helping Osama bin Laden's terrorist network has
leaked out.

The names, addresses, telephone numbers, e-mail,
and social security codes of the suspects were
posted on the internet by Finland's Financial
Supervision Authority (RATA)."




From reeza at hawaii.rr.com  Sat Oct  6 00:40:36 2001
From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 21:40:36 -1000
Subject: Anthrax...coincidence?
In-Reply-To: <877ku9e3vv.fsf@challah.msrl.com>
References: <32DDAD28-BA10-11D5-9404-0050E439C473@got.net>
 <32DDAD28-BA10-11D5-9404-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011005213905.02dee9d0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com>


At 05:25 AM 10/6/01 +0000, Michael Shields wrote:
 >The New York Times is reporting that the vaccine is unavailable to
 >civilians.  http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/06/health/06VACC.html

Wasn't it only available to veterinarians and others with a bona fide
need before the DoD order?

No, I'm not going to look at Google, I have other irons in the fire.

Reese




From nobody at paranoici.org  Fri Oct  5 12:51:57 2001
From: nobody at paranoici.org (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 21:51:57 +0200
Subject: Anthrax found in Florida
Message-ID: 


A man in Florida has been infected with anthrax, according to the CDC.



But don't freak out, they say. Don't buy a gas mask or antibiotics.
Don't panic. Get back in your cubicle. Keep working. Stay at your
desk. 

Under no circumstances should you try to find some ciprofloxacin, an
antibiotic which might be useful in treating inhalational anthrax.






From drt at un.bewaff.net  Fri Oct  5 12:59:16 2001
From: drt at un.bewaff.net (Doobee R. Tzeck)
Date: 05 Oct 2001 21:59:16 +0200
Subject: ZKS Shutdown
In-Reply-To: "Tolan Blundell"'s message of "Thu, 4 Oct 2001 18:28:00 +0100"
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011004092731.00a38d90@bivens.parrhesia.com>
	
Message-ID: <87wv29kgdn.fsf_-_@c0re.rc23.cx>



"Tolan Blundell"  writes:

> I used to use freedom, but i kept forgetting my passphrase..lame i know but
> hey.
> 
> I was wondering if there are any open source projects that perform a similar
> function (pseudonym based ip traffic anonymising, and remailing) out there?

I'm aware of http://www.authnet.org/anonnet/ and
http://fling.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php?OverviewOfFling

drt

-- 
teenage mutant ninja hero coders from da c0re - http://c0re.jp/
me                                            - http://koeln.ccc.de/~drt/




From piolenc at mozcom.com  Fri Oct  5 07:00:38 2001
From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 22:00:38 +0800
Subject: Dealing with Islamic terrorists, and with Afghanistan
References: <3BBD0075.4457F2D6@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <3BBDBD06.2F3C7D7D@mozcom.com>


YOu need to understand that terrorism has its own ideology, which has
nothing to do with whatever the terrorist du jour espouses publicly. All
that the actions proposed below would do is infuriate REAL Muslims, who
are not yet our enemies and need not be.

Marc de Piolenc 

mmotyka at lsil.com wrote:
> 
> Steve Furlong  wrote :
> >
> >mmotyka at lsil.com wrote:
>
> Shortly after 911 I suggested that the US publicize video clips of its
> forces dipping bullets in pig's blood and painting pigblood deathheads
> on cruise missiles and preparing boxcar-sized piggery and slaughterhouse
> runoff aerosol bombs. Rumors of pork-only meals in US prison camps. The
> whole dying unclean thing...
> 
> It may or may not work - I don't know how serious these guys are about
> their religion. Should the leaders be more worldly they might struggle
> with their texts to devise a palatable philosophical out for their field
> soldiers.





From ababa at fortythieves.org  Fri Oct  5 22:16:27 2001
From: ababa at fortythieves.org (Ali Baba)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 22:16:27 -0700
Subject: Another Golden Moment of law enforcement
Message-ID: <3BBE93AB.AC12BE4C@fortythieves.org>


> "A CONFIDENTIAL FBI list of 370 people suspected of
> helping Osama bin Laden's terrorist network has
> leaked out.
> 
> The names, addresses, telephone numbers, e-mail,
> and social security codes of the suspects were
> posted on the internet by Finland's Financial
> Supervision Authority (RATA)."
> 
You mean the were...

(wait for it)

RATA'd out?...




From EDDIEG01 at msn.com  Fri Oct  5 22:47:21 2001
From: EDDIEG01 at msn.com (Ed P.)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 22:47:21
Subject: Real Money
Message-ID: <200110060156.SAA15819@ecotone.toad.com>





Dear Friends & Future Millionaires 

AS SEEN ON NATIONAL T.V. 
Making over half million dollar every 4 to 5 months from your home for an investment of only 
$25 U.S. Dollars expense one time.
THANKS TO THE COMPUTER AGE & THE INTERNET!

BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR !!!

Before you say "Bull",please read the following. This is the letter you have been hearing 
about on the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter 
on the internet, a national weekly news program recently devoted an entire show to the 
investigation of this program described below, to see if it really
can make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was 
legal.

Their findings proved once and or all that there are "absolutely NO Laws prohibiting the 
participation in the program and if people can - follow the 
simple instructions , they are bound to make some mega bucks with only $25 out of pocket 
cost".DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY
& RESPECT THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER 
THAN EVER.

This is what one had to say: "Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I  was approached many 
times before but each time I passed on it. I am so glad! I finally 
joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. 
To my astonishment, I received a total of $610,470.00 in 21 weeks,
with money still coming in."
Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey.

Here is another testimonial: "This program has been around for a long time but i never 
believed in it. But one day when I received this again in the mail I 
decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the simple instructions and walaa.........3 weeks 
later the money started to come in. First month I only made $240.00
but ehe next 2 months after that I made a total of $290,000.00. So far , in the past 8 months 
by re-entering the program, I have made over $710,000.00 and I
am playing it again. The key to success in this program is to follow the simple steps and not 
change anything. MORE TESTIMONIALS LATER BUT FIRST,

                     PRINT THIS NOW FOR FUTURE REFERENCE 
        
        
If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months easily and comfortably, 
please 
read the following... THEN READ IT AGAIN AND AGAIN!!!


FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTIONS BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS 
WILL 
COME TRUE, GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS:

      Order all 5 reports shown on the list below 

For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE 
ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose 
name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN 
ADDRESS 
IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT HAND CORNER in case 
of any mail problems.


When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 reports. You will need all 5 
reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. 
YOUR TOTAL COST $5 x 5 = $25.00.

Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the 5 reports from these 5 different 
individuals. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible 
for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. Also make a floppy of 
these reports and keep it on your desk in case something happen 
to your computer.


IMPORTANT- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or 
their sequence on the list, in any way other than what is instructed below
in step "1 through 6" or you will loose out on majority of your profits. Once you understand 
the 
way this works, you will also see how it does not work if you change it.
Remember, this method has been proven.

Some people have put their friends / relatives names on all 5 reports thinking they could get 
all 
the money. But it does not work this way. Believe us, we all have 
tried to be greedy and then nothing happened. So do not try to change anything other than 
what is instructed. Because if you do, it will  not work for you.


Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!!


1.....After you have ordered all 5 reports,take this advertisement and REMOVE name and 
address of the person in report #5. This person has made it through 
the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune.

2.....Move the name and address in report #4 down to report #5

3.....  Move the name and address in report #3 down to report #4

4.....Move the name and address in report #2 down to report #3

5.....  Move the name and address in report #1 down to report #2

6..... Insert your name and address in the report #1 position. PLEASE MAKE SURE you 
copy 
every name and address ACCURATELY!                


***** Take this entire letter,with the modified list of names, and save it on your computer.DO 
NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES.
SAVE THIS ON A DISK AS WELL JUST IN CASE YOU LOOSE ANY DATA. To assist you 
with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports 
you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing information which includes how to 
send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free 
classified ads and much more.
There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going:

METHOD #1:BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY


Let's say you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we will assume You and 
those 
involved send out only 5,000  e-mails each. Let's 
also assume thet the mailing receive only a 0.2% response ( the response could be much 
better 
but lets just say it is only 0.2% also many people
will send out hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 each). 
Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. With a 0.2%response, that is 
only ten orders for report #1. Those 10 people responded 
by sending out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000. Out of those 50,000 e-mails only 
0.2% 
responded with orders. That equals 100 people responded
and ordered report #2. Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails for a total of 500,000 e-
mails. 
The 0.2% response to that is 1,000 orders for report #3. 

Those 1,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million e-mails sent out. 
The 
0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for report #4.  
Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000,000 (50 million) e-
mails. 
The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for report #5.

THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH = $500,000 (HALF A MILLION)


Your total income in this example is: 1............$50 + 2...................$500 + 
3..................$5,000 + 
4.................$50,000 + 5.......................$500,000
GRAND TOTAL = $555,550.00


NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGUREOUT THE WORST 
POSIBBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU 
CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY!





REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF 
5,000 
YOU MAILED TO.

Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone or half or even one 4th. of those 
people mailed 100,000 e-mails each or more? There are
over 150 million people on the internet worldwide and counting. Believe me, many people 
will 
do just that, and more!


METHOD #2: BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET 

Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there are hundreds of free places to 
advertise. Placing alot of free ads on the internet 
will easily get a larger response. We strongly suggest you start with method #1 and add 
method 
#2 as you go along. For every $5 you receive, 
all you must do is e-mail them the report they ordered. That's it. Always provide same day 
service on all orders. This will guarantee that the e-mail
they send out, with your name and address on it, will be prompt because they can not 
advertise until they receive the report.


ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER AND NAME ONLY. NOTES:

Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. CHECKS NOT ACCEPTED. 
Make 
sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in 
at least 2 sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper,Write the NUMBER & THE 
NAME 
OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING,
YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address.


PLACE YOUR ORDERS FOR THESE REPORTS NOW:



REPORT #1 "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Net"

Order Report #1 from:

    E.P.
14514 sw 57 Ter. 
Miami , FL.  33183 , U.S.A.


REPORT#2 " The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk E-mail on the Net"

Order Report  #2 from

Meg G.
7143 Hillside Dr.
W. Bloomfield, MI 48322-2847, U.S.A.



REPORT #3 "Secret to Multilevel Marketing on the Net"

Order Report #3 from

K.C.
7143 Hillside Dr.
W. Bloomfield, MI. 48322-2847, U.S.A.


REPORT #4 "How to Become a Millionaire Utilizing MLM & the Net"

Order Report #4 from

B.M.
4510 Meadow Way
White Lake , MI. 48383-1816, U.S.A.


 REPORT #5 "How to Send Out One Million E-mails for Free"

 
Order Report #5 from

D.J.
16 Northcrest Dr.
London , Ontario , Canada
N5X- 3V8



$$$$$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


    Follow These Guidelines to Guarantee Your Success:



If you do not receive at least 10 orders for report #1 within 2 weeks, continue sending e-
mailsuntil you do.
 
After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks later you should receive 100 orders or 
more 
for report #2.
If you do not, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do .
Once you have received 100 or more orders for report #2 YOU CAN RELAX , because the 
system is already working for you, and the cash
will continue to roll in ! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is 
moved 
down on the list , you are placed in front of a 
different report. You can keep track of your PROGRESS by watching which report people 
are 
ordering from you. 
IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAILS 
AND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN.

THERE IS NO LIMIT TO THE INCOME YOU CAN GENERATE FROM THIS BUSINESS!!! 
     



FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: You have just 
received information that can give you financial freedom
for the rest of your life, with No RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make 
more money in the next few weeks and months than you ever imagined.
Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED . Do not change it in any way. It works 
exceedingly well as it is now. 

Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put your name & address in 
Report #1and moved others to #2...........................#5 as instructed above.
One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your name 
will 
be on every one of them. Remember though, the more you send out the more potential 
customers 
you will reach.

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and the opportunity to 
become 
financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!


                  *********************MORE TESTIMONIALS*************************


"My name is Mitchelle. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an accountant with a major 
U.S. Corporation anI make pretty good money.
When I received  this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving "junk mail". I made fun of 
the whole thing, spouting  my knowledge of the population
and percentages involved. I "knew" it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my supposed 
intelligence and few days later she jumped in with both feet. I made 
merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you so " on her when the thing 
didn't 
work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had 
received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received a total of $ 
147,200.00...............all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jody in her "hobby"
Mitchelle wolf M.D.,Chicago, Illinois



"Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to wake up my mind to participate 
in 
this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the 
innitial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders 
to 
at least get my money back".  I was surprised whebn I found my medium
size post office box crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first 12 weeks. The 
nice 
thing about this deal is that it does not matter where people live.
There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return and so big.
Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada


"I had received this program before. I deleted it , but later I wondered if I should have given 
it a 
try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had
to wait until I was e-mailed again by  someone else............ 11 months passed then it luckily 
came again ...............I did not delete this one! I made more than $490,000 
on my first try and all the money came within 22 weeks".
Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y.

           

            
   "iT really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with little cost to you. I 
followed 
the simple instructions carefully and within 10 days the money started to come in.
My first month I made $20,560 and by the end of the third month my total cash count was 
$362,840.00 Life is beautiful, Thanx to internet"
Fred Dellaca, Westport , New Zealand




ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO 
FINANCIAL 
FREEDOM!

If you have any questions of the legality of this program , contact the office of Associate 
Director of Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer 
Protection,
Washington D.C.



(Note:To avoid delays make sure appropriate postage to Canada is applied if mailing from 
U.S.   
           
  

         




From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Fri Oct  5 23:11:28 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 23:11:28 -0700
Subject: Anthrax found in Florida
In-Reply-To: ; from
  nobody@paranoici.org on Fri, Oct 05, 2001 at 09:51:57PM +0200
References: 
Message-ID: <20011005231127.G31721@navel.introspect>

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From citizenq at hushmail.com  Fri Oct  5 16:13:31 2001
From: citizenq at hushmail.com (citizenq at hushmail.com)
Date: Fri,  5 Oct 2001 23:13:31 +0000
Subject: Apologies to Ethel Merman & Irving Berlin.
Message-ID: <200110052313.f95NDVw65931@mailserver1.hushmail.com>


"The costumes, the scenery, the makeup, the props
The audience that lifts you when you're down
The headaches, the heartaches, the backaches, the flops
The sheriff who escorts you out of town
The opening when your heart beats like a drum
The closing when the passengers won't come
There's no business like show business
Like no business I know
Everything about it is appealing
Everything the traffic will allow
No where could you have that happy feeling
...
Let's go on with the show
Let's go on with the show!
The show!
The show!"


Anyone who thinks for a nanosec that this is anything but showbiz is a total idiot.

>RESPONSE TO TERROR
>L.A., S.F. Airports to Get National Guard
>Safety: Soldiers armed with loaded M-16s will boost security, starting
>today. The rifles will be
>fired as a last resort, a spokesman says.
>
>By PETER Y. HONG, TIMES STAFF WRITER

>National Guard troops with M-16 assault rifles are to report for guard
>duty at Los Angeles International and San Francisco airports today, in
>a move Gov. Gray Davis called "a symbol of the changes that have
>occurred at airports to enhance passenger safety."




From citizenq at hushmail.com  Fri Oct  5 16:27:54 2001
From: citizenq at hushmail.com (citizenq at hushmail.com)
Date: Fri,  5 Oct 2001 23:27:54 +0000
Subject: PATRIOT bill, Leahy's USA
Message-ID: <200110052327.f95NRsX67802@mailserver1.hushmail.com>


This shit just keeps on rolling, last week was only round 1, not the bout.  What's up phreadom phighters? - it's been kind of quiet around here regarding the latest legislative activities.

Leahy's bill is found at CDT, http://www.cdt.org/security/010911response.shtml
Here's some status on PATRIOT from Thomas for the lazy.


Bill Summary & Status for the 107th Congress
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
NEW SEARCH | HOME | HELP 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
H.R.2975 
Sponsor: Rep Sensenbrenner, F. James, Jr.(introduced 10/2/2001) 
Latest Major Action: 10/3/2001 House committee/subcommittee actions: Ordered to be Reported (Amended) by the Yeas and Nays: 36 - 0. 
Title: To combat terrorism, and for other purposes. 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jump to: Titles, Status, Committees, Related Bill Details, Amendments, Cosponsors, Summary

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TITLE(S):  ()

POPULAR TITLE(S): 
Anti-Terrorism Act of 2001 (identified by CRS)
MATA (Mobilization Against Terrorism Act) (identified by CRS)
Mobilization Against Terrorism Act (MATA) (identified by CRS) 

SHORT TITLE(S) AS INTRODUCED: 
PATRIOT Act of 2001 (Provide Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism)
Provide Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism (PATRIOT) Act of 2001

OFFICIAL TITLE AS INTRODUCED: 
To combat terrorism, and for other purposes. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
STATUS: (color indicates Senate actions) 
10/2/2001:
Referred to the Committee on the Judiciary, and in addition to the Committees on Intelligence (Permanent Select), International Relations, Resources, and Ways and Means, for a period to be subsequently determined by the Speaker, in each case for consideration of such provisions as fall within the jurisdiction of the committee concerned. 
10/2/2001:
Referred to House Judiciary 
10/3/2001:
Committee Consideration and Mark-up Session Held. 
10/3/2001:
Ordered to be Reported (Amended) by the Yeas and Nays: 36 - 0. 
10/2/2001:
Referred to House Select Committee on Intelligence 
10/2/2001:
Referred to House International Relations 
10/2/2001:
Referred to House Resources 
10/2/2001:
Referred to House Ways and Means 




From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org  Fri Oct  5 20:34:45 2001
From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 23:34:45 -0400
Subject: Anthrax found in Florida
References: <3BBE289D.6090509@dragonsweb.org> <3.0.6.32.20011005181210.0096f7c0@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3BBE7BD5.50108@dragonsweb.org>


David Honig wrote:

> At 03:03 PM 10/5/01 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> 
>>On Friday, October 5, 2001, at 02:39 PM, James B. DiGriz wrote:
>>
>>>Still don't feel the need for a gas mask.
>>>
>>>
>>Nor should you. They won't work for the obvious reasons, oft-discussed.
>>
>>
> 
> They can be useful.  Sarin, being volitile (gone in half an hour) mostly
> causes injury via inhalation.  VX, being nonvolitile (2 weeks), causes
> injury mostly by contact.  
> 
> The Israelis *also* sealed a room, and would sit in
> that room with masks on.  Since buildings exchange gasses slowly with
> the outside, they could survive a cloud that dissipates.  
> 
> YMMV.
> 
> 
> 

Using masks with HEPA filters will keep the bulk of anthrax spores out 
of your airway. Probably below the 4,000-12,000 reputedly needed for 
infection, Lot better than nothing, and buys you some options.

If you have newer model vacuum cleaner with a HEPA filter you could 
positively pressurize a reasonably well sealed room with filtered 
outside air for a while, or fabricate a dust hood/mask, with some poly 
and good old duct tape.

Still don't feel the need.

jbdigriz




From anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org  Fri Oct  5 23:39:19 2001
From: anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org (Incognito Innominatus)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 23:39:19 -0700
Subject: Labs fail to identify anthrax in unannounced tests
Message-ID: <20011005233919.I31721@navel.introspect>


[Reformatted for legibility.  Please take the few moments necessary to
ensure materials posted are readable.  KMSelf]

(New Mexico) State Labs Flunk Tests on Spotting Anthrax

By E. J. Mundell (From Haz--Mat-WMD Tuesday May 22)

ORLANDO (Reuters Health) - In a recent test, every medical laboratory
that received a patient specimen containing the deadly anthrax bacterium
failed to spot the organism or refer it to another lab, scientists
report. The finding is worrisome, because "if Bacillus anthracis is used
covertly in a bioterrorism attack, it will probably be first isolated in
a clinical laboratory," according to Dr. Linda Nims and colleagues at
the New Mexico State Laboratory in Albuquerque. Nims presented the
findings here Monday at the annual meeting of the American Society for
Microbiology. Speaking with Reuters Health, Nims explained that as a
former clinical microbiologist, she suspected that most of her
colleagues would dismiss an unexpected culture finding such as B.
anthracis as an innocuous contaminant. "You feel like, 'well, it was on
the skin but it's not causing the patient's infection," she said. The
common response would be to abandon any further investigation of the
bacillus. "I wanted to see if the laboratories in my city still did the
same thing," Nims said. So, unannounced, she and her colleagues
submitted four specimens-not from real patients-to four large New Mexico
laboratories. Each contained a weakened form of B. anthracis. The
result, Nims said, was "exactly what I thought-people just thought it
was a contaminant. Three out of four laboratories turned it out as a
contaminant or just 'Bacillus species.' One referred it to us--9 days
after they first looked at the specimen." These types of mistakes and
delays could have enormous public health consequences in the event of a
real anthrax outbreak, the researchers warn.

Laboratories could "take a prolonged period of time to identify the
organism or not identify it at all, which could result in increased
illness and death in the population."

To address the problem locally, the New Mexico State Laboratory has
presented training sessions in spotting and reporting B. anthracis for
personnel at the four labs that flunked the test. The measure seems to
have worked. In a second round of tests, all four labs correctly
referred the bacillus to the state lab when it came across their desks,
with three of the four doing so within a day. Nims believes this type of
initiative may be needed nationwide, given the ongoing threat of
bioterrorism. "I think that all laboratories have to be aware of it and
probably ask their state health lab for help in training on it," she
said.




From cd40xmax at go2.pl  Fri Oct  5 15:13:59 2001
From: cd40xmax at go2.pl (Waldek)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 00:13:59 +0200
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: 


DEAR SIRS ,

I AM A DEALER  FROM POLAND.

I SPECIALIZE IN THE OFFSET  , WEB  ,FLEXOGRAPHIC AND BINDERY MACHINES.

IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN PURCHASE THE MACHINE PLEASE LET ME KNOW :

TYPE OF MANUFACTURE
AGE
DETAILS EQUIPMENT
YOUR BUDGET
WHETHER YOU WANT THE MACHINE TO SEE IN PRODUCTION OR NOT ?
AVAILBLITY
IF YOU HAVE A MACHINE FOR SALE PLEASE SEND ME FOLLOWING INFORMATION:
TYPE OF MANUFACTURE
AGE
PRICE (EX SITE ,LOT ETC.)
DETAILS EQUIPMENT
AVAILBLITY
LOCALIZATION
IS THE MACHINE IN PRODUCTION OR NOT

PLEASE ALSO SEND ME YOUR EXACT ADDRESS WITH PHONE AND FAX NUMBER AND E-MAIL
TO NEEDS OF MY BASE.
I ASK YOU FOR INFORMATION WHAT IS YOUR SPECIALITY .

YOU ARE DEALER OR PRINTER !!!!!

THANK YOU FOR YOUR HELP.

BEST REGARDS,
WALDEMAR


WALDGRAF MACHINERY
TEL/FAX : 0048 61 8261832
MOBILE : 0048 601 161 494
E-MAIL : CD40XMAX at GO.2PL
CONTACT PERSON: WALDEMAR


Przeanalizowane przez G DATA AntiVirenKit




From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Sat Oct  6 00:17:54 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 00:17:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Anthrax...coincidence?
In-Reply-To: <32DDAD28-BA10-11D5-9404-0050E439C473@got.net> from "Tim May" at Oct 05, 2001 09:11:21 PM
Message-ID: <200110060717.f967Hsa12979@artifact.psychedelic.net>


Tim forwards:

> Two cases of anthrax in Florida, if this is true, when there have been 
> very few cases in the past 100 years. (And even fewer pulmonary 
> cases...)

Prior to the current concern about biological warefare, tissue samples
were not routinely tested for anthrax, so doubtless there were cases of
fatal respiratory illness due to anthrax that flew under the CDC radar.

Now all suspicious respiratory illnesses are being analyzed by the CDC, so
we could just be catching cases that might have been missed before the
period of heightened awareness.

While two cases in Florida are an odd coincidence, I will wait for a few
more before drawing any conclusions that people were deliberately
infected.

You can inhale anthrax spores from handling animal hides or fur,
particularly imports.  Anthrax is present globally, so two cases in
Florida are hardly evidence of a deliberate biological attack.

Let's not all rush to our sealed rooms yet.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org  Fri Oct  5 23:18:06 2001
From: anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org (Incognito Innominatus)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 01:18:06 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Labs fail to identify anthrax in unannounced tests
Message-ID: <4abbcb1cb4df70a19db11fcc92773167@mixmaster.nullify.org>


(New Mexico) State Labs Flunk Tests on Spotting Anthrax

By E. J. Mundell (From Haz--Mat-WMD Tuesday May 22)

ORLANDO (Reuters Health) - In a recent test, every medical laboratory that received a patient
specimen containing the deadly anthrax bacterium failed to spot the organism or refer it to
another lab, scientists report. The finding is worrisome, because "if Bacillus anthracis is
used covertly in a bioterrorism attack, it will probably be first isolated in a clinical
laboratory," according to Dr. Linda Nims and colleagues at the New Mexico State Laboratory in
Albuquerque. Nims presented the findings here Monday at the annual meeting of the American
Society for Microbiology. Speaking with Reuters Health, Nims explained that as a former
clinical microbiologist, she suspected that most of her colleagues would dismiss an unexpected
culture finding such as B. anthracis as an innocuous contaminant. "You feel like, 'well, it was
on the skin but it's not causing the patient's infection," she said. The common response would
be to abandon any further investigation of the bacillus. "I wanted to see if the laboratories
in my city still did the same thing," Nims said. So, unannounced, she and her colleagues submitted
four specimens-not from real patients-to four large New Mexico laboratories. Each contained a
weakened form of B. anthracis. The result, Nims said, was "exactly what I thought-people just
thought it was a contaminant. Three out of four laboratories turned it out as a contaminant
or just 'Bacillus species.' One referred it to us--9 days after they first looked at the
specimen." These types of mistakes and delays could have enormous public health consequences in
the event of a real anthrax outbreak, the researchers warn.

Laboratories could "take a prolonged period of time to identify the organism or not identify it
at all, which could result in increased illness and death in the population."

To address the problem locally, the New Mexico State Laboratory has presented training sessions
in spotting and reporting B. anthracis for personnel at the four labs that flunked the test. The
measure seems to have worked. In a second round of tests, all four labs correctly referred the
bacillus to the state lab when it came across their desks, with three of the four doing so within
a day. Nims believes this type of initiative may be needed nationwide, given the ongoing threat
of bioterrorism. "I think that all laboratories have to be aware of it and probably ask their
state health lab for help in training on it," she said.




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From: turboman345 at pgpatwtwbiy.hotmail.com (turboman345 at pgpatwtwbiy.hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 01:28:26 -0700
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From attila at hun.org  Fri Oct  5 18:48:38 2001
From: attila at hun.org (attila!)
Date: Sat,  6 Oct 2001 01:48:38 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [RANT] Deja Vu? 07 Dec 1941 with Edward R Murrow
Message-ID: <20011006014838.E00D03465A@hun.org>

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From nobody at dizum.com  Fri Oct  5 17:00:16 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Sat,  6 Oct 2001 02:00:16 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: firing a high-powered combat rifle in an airport could do
  more har
Message-ID: 


The cypherpunk's grip on reality has long been tenuous, but the reality
distortion field has now been tuned to maximum.  The plain language of
printed text is now apparently invisible to the cypherpunk eye:

> Notice how its not an evil "assault rifle" but a "combat rifle" now...
>
> http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-000079569oct05.story?coll=la%2Dheadlines%2Dcalifornia

> National Guard troops with M-16 assault rifles are to report for guard
                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> The harder bullet used by the assault rifle is more likely to ricochet
                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^




From baptista at pccf.net  Sat Oct  6 01:47:45 2001
From: baptista at pccf.net (!Dr. Joe Baptista)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 04:47:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Fwd: Major Networks Refuse Front Sight's ARM PILOTS Commercial
  (fwd)
Message-ID: 


The commercial which was rejected by major networks in the US is available
at http://www.frontsight.com/gun_school_for_pilots_complete.htm

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 15:44:12 -0700
From: Ignatius Piazza 
To: baptista at pccf.net
Subject: Fwd: Major Networks Refuse Front Sight's ARM PILOTS Commercial

>Please forward this e-mail to pilots, airlines,
>congressional reps, and at least 10 other people that fly
>commercial airlines. Spread this rapidly and world wide. We
>can turn the tables on terrorists  and take back control of
>the skies!
>
>FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
>October 4, 2001
>
>CONTACT:
>Dr. Ignatius Piazza
>1.800.987.7719
>Fax: 831.684.2137
>e-mail: info at frontsight.com
>http://www.frontsight.com
>
>Major Networks Refuse Front Sight's ARM PILOTS Commercial
>
>Las Vegas, Nevada: Major media networks have refused to air
>a 60 second commercial calling for President Bush, the FAA,
>and the airlines to arm commercial pilots.  The commercial,
>to run on prime time slots was produced and sponsored by
>Front Sight Founder's Society.
>
>Front Sight Firearm Training Institute's Founder and
>Director, Dr. Ignatius Piazza was surprised that major
>networks refused to air a commercial in which Front Sight
>encourages Americans to contact President Bush, the FAA, and
>the airlines to demand that our commercial pilots be armed.
>In the commercial Front Sight also offers to immediately
>train all commercial pilots and co-pilots FREE OF CHARGE
>that are authorized to carry a gun to defend the cockpit
>against terrorists.
>
>Piazza states, "It is unfortunate that the major networks
>would not air our 60 second commercials aimed at spreading
>the truth that the only solution to forever preventing
>another World Trade Center attack is to give pilots the
>ability and authority to defend the cockpit with a gun.
>Front Sight's solution is simple, efficient, effective and
>will not cost the taxpayers, air passengers, or airlines a
>dime. Our commercial demonstrated how easy and safe it is to
>stop cold a terrorist attempting to invade the doorway of
>the cockpit or take a hostage. Front Sight has the absolute
>solution. We are willing to provide our gift of up to 150
>million dollars in training free of charge and Front Sight
>Founder's Society is spending hundreds of thousands of
>dollars to spread the truth of our solution."
>
>To view the commercial that major media networks refused to
>air visit Front Sight's web site at
>http://www.frontsight.com/gun_school_for_pilots_complete.htm
>and support Front Sight's efforts to arm and train our
>commercial pilots by joining Front Sight Founder's Society.
>
>Front Sight Founder's Society is now producing a new 60
>second commercial to be ready by next week.  Says Piazza,
>"The next commercial, unfortunately must be more politically
>correct to get it aired, but will have the same message to
>arm our pilots and take back control of the skies.  Watch
>for it and support Front Sight's Founder's Society."
>
>Contact:
>
>Dr. Ignatius Piazza
>1.800.987.7719
>
>Front Sight
>www.frontsight.com
>
>Front Sight Founders' Society
>http://www.frontsight.com/founders_society.htm

Joe Baptista

http://www.dot-god.com/

The dot.GOD Registry, Limited
The Executive Plaza, Suite 908
150 West 51st Street                     Tel: 1 (208) 330-4173
Manhattan Island NYC 10019 USA           Fax: 1 (208) 293-9773




From shields at msrl.com  Fri Oct  5 22:25:40 2001
From: shields at msrl.com (Michael Shields)
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 05:25:40 +0000
Subject: Anthrax...coincidence?
In-Reply-To: <32DDAD28-BA10-11D5-9404-0050E439C473@got.net> (Tim May's
  message of "Fri, 5 Oct 2001 21:11:21 -0700")
References: <32DDAD28-BA10-11D5-9404-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <877ku9e3vv.fsf@challah.msrl.com>


The New York Times is reporting that the vaccine is unavailable to
civilians.  http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/06/health/06VACC.html
-- 
Shields.




From drevil at sidereal.kz  Fri Oct  5 22:53:50 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil)
Date: 6 Oct 2001 05:53:50 -0000
Subject: Anthrax...coincidence?
In-Reply-To: <32DDAD28-BA10-11D5-9404-0050E439C473@got.net> (message
  from Tim May on Fri, 5 Oct 2001 21:11:21 -0700)
References: <32DDAD28-BA10-11D5-9404-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <20011006055350.9460.qmail@sidereal.kz>


> Center for Disease Control Investigating Second Anthrax Case
> By Chris Dolmetsch

Very interesting, I can't find this story _anywhere_ other than the
URL you posted.  It should be white-hot news, because two airborne
anthrax infections in the same region, where the terrorists trained,
is either an enormous, outrageous coincidence, or a biological
attack.  Too bad that, like the smallpox vaccine, the anthrax vaccine
isn't available to civilians.  "We won't vaccinate you!" seems like
not the optimal way to fight bioterrorism.  Maybe if enough people die
from it, there will be a black market in vaccines to meet the obvious
demand.  Maybe people will go to jail for having the wrong antibodies.

FORTUNATELY, this stuff is not contagious.  Either you have it or you
don't.  If there was an attack, it's too late to do anything about it,
as far as I can tell from reading on the 'net.




From drevil at sidereal.kz  Fri Oct  5 23:04:46 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil)
Date: 6 Oct 2001 06:04:46 -0000
Subject: 2nd anthrax case url
Message-ID: <20011006060446.18220.qmail@sidereal.kz>


Here is a slightly easier URL for the only article I can find on the
2nd anthrax case:

http://quote.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?T=markets_bfgcgi_content99.ht&s=AO73EbxYxQ2VudGVy




From oa at acm.org  Sat Oct  6 08:08:21 2001
From: oa at acm.org (Optimizzin Al-gorithm)
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 08:08:21 -0700
Subject: The Martyrdom Videogame
Message-ID: <3BBF1E64.77BAE4BD@acm.org>


At 10:42 AM 10/5/01 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
>Just another example of the trend that you
>don't need to be religious to exercise religious bigotry.
>Hating other people and insulting their values
>doesn't require either understanding them
>or having values of your own.
>It's frustrating how rabidly intolerant a lot of
>ostensibly socially liberal people are.
>
>>Optimizzin Al-gorithm  wrote :
>>
>> > Christians need to start cultivating a
>> > martyrdom culture/generation. Maybe a
>> > videogame where you win by blowing
>> > yourself up and taking out a lot of
>> > drugdealers^H^H^H^Hmoslems^H^H^H^Hwhatever
>> > the fuck the bogeymen du jour are.

Actually this comment isn't about religions ---its about
what happens when a more aggressive culture meets
one less so.  The losers get to run casinos at best.

Guns germs & steel.  And suicide bombers.
A culture that has them has advantages over a risk-averse one.

My commentary also alluded to the demonization of the enemy,
done by the 'faithful' of both flavors.  I was sarcastic, ie expressing
author's disdain for this demonization.  This follows my
black humor, which is cynicism about the actual reality
of competing-civilizations (named by their dominant religion)
and the way they (ab)use their (young male) subscribers.

Thanks for the opportunity to clarify.




From nobody at dizum.com  Fri Oct  5 23:10:14 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Sat,  6 Oct 2001 08:10:14 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Anthrax...coincidence?
Message-ID: <43736f62f719b80845503bd4145a669c@dizum.com>


CNN.com
Question of the Day:

Should the U.S. consider using nuclear weapons in response to a chemical
or biological attack?

  Yes     69%
  No      31%




From honig at sprynet.com  Sat Oct  6 08:13:24 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 08:13:24 -0700
Subject: Anthrax...coincidence?
In-Reply-To: <20011006055350.9460.qmail@sidereal.kz>
References: <32DDAD28-BA10-11D5-9404-0050E439C473@got.net>
  <32DDAD28-BA10-11D5-9404-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011006081324.0097be90@pop.sprynet.com>


At 05:53 AM 10/6/01 -0000, Dr. Evil wrote:
>
>FORTUNATELY, this stuff is not contagious.  Either you have it or you
>don't.  If there was an attack, it's too late to do anything about it,
>as far as I can tell from reading on the 'net.

Right.  What you need to worry about is letters from Afghanistan
(or Pakistan, etc?) containing that hemorragic fever that's broken out.




From matt at rearviewmirror.org  Sat Oct  6 09:07:36 2001
From: matt at rearviewmirror.org (Matt Beland)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 09:07:36 -0700
Subject: Anthrax...coincidence?
In-Reply-To: <32DDAD28-BA10-11D5-9404-0050E439C473@got.net>
References: <32DDAD28-BA10-11D5-9404-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <200110061606.f96G6Df11785@slack.lne.com>

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From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Oct  6 09:07:58 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 09:07:58 -0700
Subject: WTC Collapse Alternative
Message-ID: <200110061314.JAA27815@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>


What is odd about the WTC debris is how few larger fragments 
of concrete it contains. Reports on the structure say reinforced 
concrete was used for floor slabs and customarily in demolition 
such material breaks apart in relatively large chunks, the broken 
concrete remaining attached by steel reinforcing bars or wire mesh. 

However, there is a structural design where plain concrete is 
placed on metal floor decking with little or no reinforcing. Also, 
lightweight concrete, whose course aggregate is cinder rather than 
stone, is often used to limit the weight of the structure, especially
in high-rise building. This lightweight material does not usually 
have the strength of regular concrete and strength is provided by 
metal decking below it. The large amount of dust produced by the 
towers' collapse and the relative lack of larger concrete shards 
raise the possibility that the building disintegrated at least in 
part due to lesser strength of the type of concrete used in the 
floors. That remains to be examined.

Observation of the towers' remains show that while main steel 
vertical structural members of the exterior wall and central core 
withstood the collapse, the horizontal floor-supporting trusses 
broke away from these vertical supports at the points of attachment 
(probably made by welding). One view of the North Tower (1 WTC) 
shows the exterior and core remnants and the ruptured points
of floor structure attachment. 

Photos: http://cryptome.org/wtc/wtc035.jpg
        http://cryptome.org/wtc/wtc047.jpg

What this suggests is the possibility that the structure of each 
floor collapsed due to load of collapsing floors above them, and 
that only afterwards did the vertical supports at the exterior 
and core collapse. Review of video of the collapse appears to 
confirm this sequence as well as the consequent supposition that 
the floor structure was the weakest part of the buildings
-- which would not be uncommon for floor structure supports only 
a single floor while the vertical members support all floors above 
them. However, a slow motion examination of visual recording would 
be needed to confirm exactly what collapsed first.

There has been speculation about the initial step in the collapse 
of the buildings, most commonly attributed to the intense heat of 
burning jet fuel softening structural steel, usually the steel of 
the core. However, it is possible that collapse of the core steel 
was not the initial phase, but instead it was the floor structure 
breaking away from vertical supports. The collapse in this scenario 
would be that of floors dropping one after the other onto floors 
below, the load of the upper floors overwhelming the relatively 
weak attachments of floors to vertical supports -- the attachments
customarily being designed to support only a single floor load. 

For example, a single floor dropping onto the one below could have 
ruptured the next lower attachment, thus setting off a disastrous 
sequence. This could have occurred without fire initially weakening
the vertical steel structure as has been speculated. The impact of 
the crash, and/or subsequent swaying of the buildings, could have 
ruptured floor structure attachments, and only one floor breaking 
away would have been enough to precipitate the collapse.

Alternatively, the fuel fire, and flaming building contents, could 
have weakened floor structure and/or its attachment to vertical 
supports, in particular if the crash destroyed fire-protection 
materials of the floor structure. Thus, with heat weakening floor 
structure along with the attachments being ruptured by the crash, 
the collapse sequence commenced.

One significance of these speculations is that weakening of the 
core steel by intense heat may not have been the initial cause of 
collapse. A New York Times report of October 6 describes an 
investigative engineer "finding what appears to be a few pieces 
of the south tower that were directly hit by the Boeing 767 
jetliner, and the discovery poses a few new puzzles. While the

impact sliced through half the column, the column did not buckle; 
each column is designed to support the weight even if half is 
missing. The column also exhbits no outward signs of smoke or 
heat damage."

Another signficance is that more steel reinforcing in the concrete 
could have increased the strength of the floor structure and 
better withstood the initial step in the floor-by-floor collapse 
sequence. And, the immediate and long-term adverse affects of the 
huge dust clouds of the collapse might have been lessened. It is 
likely that some victims were suffocated by these clouds.




From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org  Sat Oct  6 07:44:05 2001
From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz)
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 10:44:05 -0400
Subject: Anthrax...coincidence?
References: <32DDAD28-BA10-11D5-9404-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <3BBF18B5.2030205@dragonsweb.org>


> Tim May wrote:
> 
> This just in: (a very long URL...be careful cutting and pasting or clicking)
> 
> http://quote.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?ptitle=Top%20World%20News&s1=blk&tp=ad_topright_topworld&
> T=markets_bfgcgi_content99.ht&s2=ad_right1_windex&bt=ad_position1_windex&middle=
> ad_frame2_windex&s=AO73EbxYxQ2VudGVy
> 
> "10/05 10:32
> Center for Disease Control Investigating Second Anthrax Case
> By Chris Dolmetsch
> 
> 
> Fort Lee, New Jersey, Oct. 5 (Bloomberg) -- The Center for Disease Control is investigating a second case of anthrax poisoning in Florida, financial network CNBC reported, citing NBC News.
> 
> One man is already hospitalized in critical condition in a Florida hospital with the deadly disease, CNBC said. The disease is not contagious between people. No further details were given.
> "
> 
> Two cases of anthrax in Florida, if this is true, when there have been very few cases in the past 100 years. (And even fewer pulmonary cases...)
> 
> And right where the WTC pilots were living and training.
> 
> (BTW, the incubation period for anthrax is up to 60 days...)
> 
> 
> --Tim May
> "Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and
> strangled with her panty hose,  is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound"
 
 
I'm guessing this is the neighbor of the first man, who has now died. They shared 

a herb garden in the back yard, and the theory is that they were both exposed 

while working in the garden. Whether the second is infected or not isn't stated.
 
Story  at http://www.msnbc.com/news/638169.asp.
 
Hell of a time and place to happen, though. You're right about that.
 
 jbdigriz





From sog at w-link.net  Sat Oct  6 10:53:57 2001
From: sog at w-link.net (CJ Parker)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 10:53:57 -0700
Subject: Jim Bell Justified???
Message-ID: <001301c14e8f$e1c10de0$6b0da2cd@vaio>

During my PreTrial InFarceRation, at a time when the Federal GovernMint was attempting to pressure me into giving up my right to an extradition hearing, Linda Lou informed me that Jeff Gordon had asked her to tell me that if I waived extradition, that I would be able to get proper medical treatment once I was extradited to Washington.
This, of course, turned out to be a BaldFacedLie, but regardless, one has to ask oneself what kind of LowLifeBottomSuckingScum would attempt to pressure a citizen into giving up one's legal rights by suggesting that relief from medical torture and abuse is conditional upon making one's prosecution, and unavoidable conviction, easier for the GooberMint.

There is a reason that the Feds object to the Citizens paying too close a scrutiny to them personally.  It is because Federal Employees who use their positions to ShitOnTheConstitution and commit Ethical Atrocities understandably live in Fear of the Citizens.
Jim Bell's prosecution did not reflect his danger to anybody, but his danger to the Fears of the Justice Criminals who recognize that, according to the Values&OR&Ethics of the Founding Fathers, THEY [TM] would be Targets...

In Reality, THEY [TM] Prosecute Only ThemSelves...

FuckTheseMorons!Monger
#05987-196

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From honig at sprynet.com  Sat Oct  6 11:25:19 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 11:25:19 -0700
Subject: Anthrax...coincidence?
In-Reply-To: <3BBF2A0F.91201D16@acmenet.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011006112519.0096c1e0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 11:58 AM 10/6/01 -0400, Steve Furlong wrote:
>"Dr. Evil" wrote:
>> 
>> > Center for Disease Control Investigating Second Anthrax Case
>> > By Chris Dolmetsch
>
>> FORTUNATELY, this stuff is not contagious.  Either you have it or you
>> don't.
>
>I'm not sure I believe that, or much of anything else put out regarding
>a bioagent. ("We have everything under control. Just continue to pay
>your taxes and do what we tell you and everything will be all right.")
>Are there any real doctors or vets on the list who can confirm it from
>their own knowledge? (Sorry, I don't think I want to trust the word of a
>"Dr Evil". )

Channelling TM: why don't you google the topic yourself? 

Or go to a library, since if you kick the paranoia up a notch
you can't trust the net.

In fact, Anthrax spores are much more useful than say smallpox militarily,
because Anthrax doesn't spread to your homeland.  That's the whole
point.  You have to use spores to infect, but infected people don't
make spores.  Also, once infected, you're toast quickly despite treatment.

But other background info backs this up:

* You have to know what you're doing to force the bacilli
to make spores, eg industrially.  The bacteria will do it on its
own under certain conditions, ie, its environment is getting harsh.
True for lots of bugs.

That's the knowledge that the germwar people know takes finesse,
making spores and then making a decent inhalable aerosol of the thing.  


* There *are* nasties that live in the soil and make spores.  An
archeologist told me of a debilitating lung fungus you get if you dig in the
ground a lot.  A cell biologist told of someone getting a weird
disease because they had fed human hair
to their garden bacteria (to deter animals I think).

* Similar (in a real bio sense) animals will often share
diseases -HIV in primates, anthrax in sheep and the like, etc.
Flu jumps between birds, pigs, and men.  The cowpox/smallpox
interaction has been noted here.  Rabies gets anything 
warmblooded I think.  Quite a lot of variation in species 
specificity, and a resivoir in "wild and domestic lower
vertebrates" (like hanta in mice, lyme in deer) is common.

>Do the spores reproduce only in herbivores?

Bacteria chose to make spores when the puddle is drying up.

>Well, maybe I'm just cynical from experience with the government's lying
>and concealing for our own good.
>
>SRF

Given current events, skepticism is even wiser than usual.  But
I wouldn't doubt the existing medical or bio info.

The "extra-vigilance --> extra detection" explanation is of course possible.

Still, *fantastic* timing, as has been pointed out.




From oa at acm.org  Sat Oct  6 11:51:15 2001
From: oa at acm.org (Optimizzin Al-gorithm)
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 11:51:15 -0700
Subject: Satellite of love
Message-ID: <3BBF52A3.F4CA11C2@acm.org>


Spy Satellite Launched From Calif.
By Associated Press
VANDENBERG AIR FORCE BASE, Calif. -- A secret satellite for
the National Reconnaissance Office was launched into orbit Friday by
a giant Titan 4B rocket.

The Titan lifted off at 2:21 p.m. and the payload separated nine minutes

later, the Air Force said. The mission was not disclosed.

Technical problems had delayed the launch since Monday.

Outside experts have said the satellite was likely equipped with a
digital
camera able to show objects as small as 4 inches diameter on the
ground.

                    The NRO builds and operates the nation's spy
satellites. Prior to 1996,
                    it did not publicly disclose the launches of its
satellites.

                    The launch was the 33rd of a Titan 4, the nation's
largest unmanned
                    launch vehicle. Four Titan 4 launches have failed,
including three in
                    1998 and 1999.

                    Built by Lockheed Martin, Titan 4s can put a
47,800-pound payload
                    into low-Earth orbit or more than 12,700 pounds into
geosynchronous
                    orbit 22,300 miles above the Earth.

http://latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/wire/sns-ap-classified-launch1005oct05.story?coll=sns%2Dap%2Dnation%2Dheadlines

                        I saw two shooting stars last night
                      I wished on them but they were only satellites
                      It's wrong to wish on space hardware
                      I wish, I wish, I wish you'd care

A new England
  Billy Bragg




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Sat Oct  6 08:58:07 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 11:58:07 -0400
Subject: Anthrax...coincidence?
Message-ID: <3BBF2A0F.91201D16@acmenet.net>


"Dr. Evil" wrote:
> 
> > Center for Disease Control Investigating Second Anthrax Case
> > By Chris Dolmetsch

> FORTUNATELY, this stuff is not contagious.  Either you have it or you
> don't.

I'm not sure I believe that, or much of anything else put out regarding
a bioagent. ("We have everything under control. Just continue to pay
your taxes and do what we tell you and everything will be all right.")
Are there any real doctors or vets on the list who can confirm it from
their own knowledge? (Sorry, I don't think I want to trust the word of a
"Dr Evil". )

I figure the spores have to come from somewhere, and they seem to be
grown in animals and then released to spread. According to the CDC page
on the subject, "Anthrax most commonly occurs in wild and domestic lower
vertebrates..., but it can also occur in humans when they are exposed to
infected animals or tissue from infected animals". Humans are animals,
aren't they? Do the spores reproduce only in herbivores?

Well, maybe I'm just cynical from experience with the government's lying
and concealing for our own good.

SRF

-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From decoy at iki.fi  Sat Oct  6 02:31:36 2001
From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 12:31:36 +0300 (EEST)
Subject: Another Golden Moment of law enforcement 
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Fri, 5 Oct 2001 Null at null.com wrote:

>The names, addresses, telephone numbers, e-mail, and social security
>codes of the suspects were posted on the internet by Finland's Financial
>Supervision Authority (RATA)."

Well, that's what they call "openness of process" in more civilized times.
I believe the reasoning was roughly that when every financial institution
across the nation gets the list, it's bound to leak.

What's funny, really, is that the list was withdrawn based not on
investigatory reasons but on privacy laws -- you cannot go spreading
people's addresses and personal details over the Internet, now can you?

Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - mailto:decoy at iki.fi, tel:+358-50-5756111
student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front
openpgp: 050985C2/025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2




From _ at rambler.ru  Sat Oct  6 01:51:02 2001
From: _ at rambler.ru (Villa)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 12:51:02 +0400
Subject: =?windows-1251?Q?=CF=F0=EE=E4=E0=E5=F2=F1=FF_=E2=E8=EB=EB=E0_=ED=E0_=E1=E5=F0=E5=E3=F3_=EE=EA=E5=E0=ED=E0?=
Message-ID: <31138200110668512663@rambler.ru>


Продается вилла на Сейшелах в 20-ти метрах от Индийского океана. 200 кв.м.
0,15 Га. Мебель, сигнализация, прислуга.

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время. Прямой безвизовый перелет Аэрофлотом.

Если Вы заинтересовались этим предложением и хотите получить более
подробную информацию, пошлите пустое письмо по адресу: seych at usa.com. При
этом в поле "Тема" обязательно укажите:

"Пришлите подробную информацию".








From bill at scannell.org  Sat Oct  6 11:05:20 2001
From: bill at scannell.org (Bill Scannell)
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 13:05:20 -0500
Subject: Thawte Founder Fails Russian 'Web of Trust'
Message-ID: 


http://cgi.canoe.ca/CNEWSSpace0110/05_tourist-ap.html

Russian officials reject tourist

MOSCOW (AP) -- Officials rejected a South African Internet tycoon's bid to
fly to the International Space Station because he made unreasonable demands,
Russian news agencies reported Friday.
Mark Shuttleworth, 27, underwent a month of tests and preparation at the
Star City cosmonaut training center outside Moscow over the summer. But the
Cape Town native failed to conclude a contract to become the second tourist
in space. 
California tycoon Dennis Tito, who reportedly paid $20 million to Russia's
cash-strapped space agency, made an eight-day trip to the station last
spring. 
"All attempts to bring Shuttleworth's conditions into correspondence with
regular practice have been abortive," the ITAR-Tass news agency quoted
Russian Space Agency director Yuri Koptev as saying.
Koptev said that Shuttleworth had insisted on a minimum of two weeks in
space, instead of the eight to 10 days the space agency favored.
"This demand would throw off the flight schedule," Koptev said.
Koptev said that Shuttleworth had also expected a free second flight to
space if the first spacecraft failed to dock with the station, ITAR-Tass
reported. 




From maxinux at bigfoot.com  Sat Oct  6 13:32:55 2001
From: maxinux at bigfoot.com (maxinux)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 13:32:55 -0700
Subject: Taking advantage of diversions
In-Reply-To: ; from wolf@priori.net on Thu, Oct 04, 2001 at 08:26:16PM -0700
References: 
Message-ID: <20011006133255.C3505@spheno.jokeslayer.com>


There are a few more things that I found out from an El Dorado County employee.  The Lawyer and Doctor were married (not 
opperating out of their house), which may make it different.  A Federal Magistrate was placed over all the documents that were 
sealed at time of taking and is now going over them to find out what is relivant o rnot and is yea or naying them on... Things 
that are nay'ed go to storage sealed (If you trust this..)

Shitty reporting.

Max Inux
On Thu, Oct 04, 2001 at 08:26:16PM -0700, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote:
> A colleague in San Francisco just sent this to me after seeing it on the
> evening news.
> 
> http://kxtv.com/news-story/October2001/100401/MARIJUANA-DECISION.htm
> 
> Federal agents seized all patient and client records from a doctor and a
> lawyer who gave out medical marijuana licenses and legal advice,
> respectively.
> 
> I wonder if this stunt would have been pulled in more peaceful times.
> Public outcry will not be nearly as great as it would have been, simply
> because we're distracted by other news.
> 
> Lovely.
> 
> 
> -MW-

-- 




From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Sat Oct  6 05:01:28 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 14:01:28 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Threat Recognition Testing (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3BBDEB59.7A19F1A8@lsil.com>
Message-ID: 


On Fri, 5 Oct 2001 mmotyka at lsil.com wrote:

> Very interesting and worth more reading. I would guess that even if it
> moves beyond the lab it will be treated like the polygraph. I wouldn't
> be surprised though if it is possible to train one's brain to move
> from state to state at will. Defocus your vision and visualize your
> training.

I think the capabilities claimed are bogus. What they claim for now is
describing bleeding edge functional neuroimaging, involving a clinical
setting with trained operators and lots of calibration, multi-Tesla
research fMRI imaging, and the like. Not a cheap setup, there are only a
few labs in the world who can do this.

It's hard to see a plain EEG (not even FFT EEG which at least can tell
which color you're thinking of, after lots of calibration) operated by
knuckledragger operators can achieve anything better than an unbiased coin
flip.




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Sat Oct  6 14:22:43 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 14:22:43 -0700
Subject: Satellite of love
In-Reply-To: <3BBF52A3.F4CA11C2@acm.org>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011006130758.03505220@idiom.com>


The NRO's web page "How to Contact Us" information doesn't say
         "Put a big sign on your roof and we'll call you."
but it does have pointers to CIA recruiting information.
http://www.nro.gov/funstuff.html - kids! Build your own satellite!
http://www.nro.gov/satpics.html - pics of a spy satellite

NIMA has cut back on what pictures they'll distribute,
according to John Young, but there's still some good stuff there.
http://164.214.2.59/navsafety.html - lots of GPS-related material.
http://164.214.2.59/gns/html/cntyfile/av.txt - anguilla ICBM addresses.
Vince Cate:
1       -1393191        -2000673        18.2166667      -63.05  181300 
-630300 20QMF9471314158 MF91    NE20-06 
P       PPLC            AV      0                               N 
                     THEVALLEY       The Valley      The Valley
http://164.214.2.59/gns/html/cntyfile/af.zip - Afghanistan
http://www.colorado.edu/geography/gcraft/notes/gps/gps_f.html - GPS Technology.


At 11:51 AM 10/06/2001 -0700, Optimizzin Al-gore-rhythm wrote:
>VANDENBERG AIR FORCE BASE, Calif. -- A secret satellite for
>the National Reconnaissance Office was launched into orbit Friday by
>a giant Titan 4B rocket.
>....
>Outside experts have said the satellite was likely equipped with a
>digital camera able to show objects as small as 4 inches diameter
>on the ground.

Amazing - they used to talk about 1 meter resolution....


>The NRO builds and operates the nation's spy satellites.
>Prior to 1996, it did not publicly disclose the launches of its atellites.
>
>The launch was the 33rd of a Titan 4, the nation's largest unmanned
>launch vehicle. Four Titan 4 launches have failed,
>including three in 1998 and 1999.

More than 10% fail on launch - I'll be happy to let them stay unmanned...
Reminds me of the scene in "The Right Stuff" where the astronaut
is talking about how he's about to get thrown into space
by a rocket built by the lowest bidder.




From maxinux at bigfoot.com  Sat Oct  6 15:00:25 2001
From: maxinux at bigfoot.com (maxinux)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 15:00:25 -0700
Subject: Satellite of love
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20011006130758.03505220@idiom.com>; from
  bill.stewart@pobox.com on Sat, Oct 06, 2001 at 02:22:43PM -0700
References: <3BBF52A3.F4CA11C2@acm.org>
  <5.0.2.1.1.20011006130758.03505220@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <20011006150025.A4134@spheno.jokeslayer.com>


Speaking about the NRO.. I drive passed Onizuka all the time, it looks like after sept 11 the satelite recievers at Onizuka 
(aka the blue cube) have been repositions.. I was out of the state at the time to look at it, so I cant verify, it just looke 
ddifferent when I got back, they were i think south east when I left, and now one is west one is south-south-west

Max

On Sat, Oct 06, 2001 at 02:22:43PM -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
> The NRO's web page "How to Contact Us" information doesn't say
>          "Put a big sign on your roof and we'll call you."
> but it does have pointers to CIA recruiting information.
> http://www.nro.gov/funstuff.html - kids! Build your own satellite!
> http://www.nro.gov/satpics.html - pics of a spy satellite

Yes, the Right Stuff was an excelent movie.




From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org  Sat Oct  6 12:52:19 2001
From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz)
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 15:52:19 -0400
Subject: Anthrax...coincidence?
References: <3.0.6.32.20011006112519.0096c1e0@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3BBF60F3.6050009@dragonsweb.org>


David Honig wrote:

> At 11:58 AM 10/6/01 -0400, Steve Furlong wrote:
> 
>>"Dr. Evil" wrote:
>>
>>>>Center for Disease Control Investigating Second Anthrax Case
>>>>By Chris Dolmetsch
>>>>
>>>FORTUNATELY, this stuff is not contagious.  Either you have it or you
>>>don't.
>>>
>>I'm not sure I believe that, or much of anything else put out regarding
>>a bioagent. ("We have everything under control. Just continue to pay
>>your taxes and do what we tell you and everything will be all right.")
>>Are there any real doctors or vets on the list who can confirm it from
>>their own knowledge? (Sorry, I don't think I want to trust the word of a
>>"Dr Evil". )
>>
> 
> Channelling TM: why don't you google the topic yourself? 
> 
> Or go to a library, since if you kick the paranoia up a notch
> you can't trust the net.
> 
> In fact, Anthrax spores are much more useful than say smallpox militarily,
> because Anthrax doesn't spread to your homeland.  That's the whole
> point.  You have to use spores to infect, but infected people don't
> make spores.  Also, once infected, you're toast quickly despite treatment.
> 
> But other background info backs this up:
> 
> * You have to know what you're doing to force the bacilli
> to make spores, eg industrially.  The bacteria will do it on its
> own under certain conditions, ie, its environment is getting harsh.
> True for lots of bugs.
> 
> That's the knowledge that the germwar people know takes finesse,
> making spores and then making a decent inhalable aerosol of the thing.  
> 
> 
> * There *are* nasties that live in the soil and make spores.  An
> archeologist told me of a debilitating lung fungus you get if you dig in the
> ground a lot.  A cell biologist told of someone getting a weird
> disease because they had fed human hair
> to their garden bacteria (to deter animals I think).
> 
> * Similar (in a real bio sense) animals will often share
> diseases -HIV in primates, anthrax in sheep and the like, etc.
> Flu jumps between birds, pigs, and men.  The cowpox/smallpox
> interaction has been noted here.  Rabies gets anything 
> warmblooded I think.  Quite a lot of variation in species 
> specificity, and a resivoir in "wild and domestic lower
> vertebrates" (like hanta in mice, lyme in deer) is common.
> 
> 
>>Do the spores reproduce only in herbivores?
>>
> 
> Bacteria chose to make spores when the puddle is drying up.
> 
> 
>>Well, maybe I'm just cynical from experience with the government's lying
>>and concealing for our own good.
>>
>>SRF
>>
> 
> Given current events, skepticism is even wiser than usual.  But
> I wouldn't doubt the existing medical or bio info.
> 
> The "extra-vigilance --> extra detection" explanation is of course possible.
> 
> Still, *fantastic* timing, as has been pointed out.
> 
> 
> 

It's peculiar enough to warrant further investigation, which according 
to the CDC bulletin is being done. I'd imagine they'd be analyzing soil 
samples from the garden and surrounding neighborhood, tracking down 
where fertilizer, potting soil, mulch, etc. came from, suspicious 
activity in the area, and so on, as well as even more vigilance checking 
pulmonary diseases. In addition to retracing people's movements as 
stated in the MSNBC article.

Coincidences *do* happen, though.

jbdigriz




From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Sat Oct  6 07:16:21 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 16:16:21 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: PDA versions of Speak Freely (fwd)
Message-ID: 




-- Eugen* Leitl leitl
______________________________________________________________
ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204
57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 02:06:58 +0200
From: John Walker 
To: Robert & Jennifer Hartley ,
     speak-freely at fourmilab.ch
Subject: Re: PDA versions of Speak Freely

 >> Has anyone else been working on a PDA version of SpeakFreely?

To my knowledge, nobody is working on this.  Several people have expressed
interest in such a package, but nobody has yet lifted a coding stick to
create one.

If you have a GCC environment, Speak Freely should port to almost any
platform with little difficulty; the main problem is coming to terms
with audio support.  The iPAQ should have adequate CPU power for any
normal Speak Freely compression and encryption mode.  If there is
handheld-specific code which belongs in the Speak Freely distribution,
I am perfectly willing to integrate it in the next release.

Next week I hope to post a "bleeding edge early-adopter" version of
Speak Freely for Unix 7.5.  This version will (*gasp*) compile without
any -Wall warnings from gcc 2.96, include Ivan Popov's fix for transmission
of face images in encrypted sessions, correct the lingering problems
with LPC-10 compression not working with this or that compiler
and optimisation modes and include, for the first time, support
for FS 1016 4800 baud CELP (Code Excited Linear Prediction) encoding.
The latter CODEC will be initially supported only in *nix versions
of Speak Freely, and integrated into the Windows version some time
in the future.  I've always considered Speak Freely to have a secondary
mission of serving as a "reference implementation" of network audio
algorithms, and CELP is the latest addition to this list (even though
GSM is adequate for the vast majority of users).

Bashing the CELP code into something you can just "make" has taken a
lot longer than I anticipated, which is why this release is so late.
I hope to have something for you to try sometime next week, but
I won't announce it until it passes all my tests on Linux,
Solaris, and SGI IRIX here.

The Speak Freely for Unix 7.5 release will be 100% ANSI C; if you
need to build it on legacy compilers, you'll need to run it through
ANSI2KNR or an equivalent translator.

Let's think about what a PDA version should be.  Should it be a scrambler,
a dial-up (or GSM, etc.) VoIP bridge, or application running under a
network-enabled OS?


                      * * *

To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send E-mail containing
the word "unsubscribe" in the message body (*not* as the
Subject) to speak-freely-request at fourmilab.ch





From tcmay at got.net  Sat Oct  6 17:18:30 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 17:18:30 -0700
Subject: Satellite of love
In-Reply-To: <20011006150025.A4134@spheno.jokeslayer.com>
Message-ID: 


On Saturday, October 6, 2001, at 03:00 PM, maxinux wrote:

> Speaking about the NRO.. I drive passed Onizuka all the time, it looks 
> like after sept 11 the satelite recievers at Onizuka
> (aka the blue cube) have been repositions.. I was out of the state at 
> the time to look at it, so I cant verify, it just looke
> ddifferent when I got back, they were i think south east when I left, 
> and now one is west one is south-south-west
>

Probably unrelated to any new satellites, especially as the only once 
since 9/11 was just launched yesterday. Probably some sats have been 
moved to new locations. Even if repositioned, the imaging satellites 
(KH-12s, etc.) usually relay their data to TDRSS and DSCS relay 
satellites, and then down to the ground stations.

Lastly, most of the Blue Cube's duties got transferred to Falcon AFB in 
Colorado some years ago.


> --Tim May
"Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and
strangled with her panty hose,  is somehow morally superior to a woman 
explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound"




From oa at acm.org  Sat Oct  6 18:14:00 2001
From: oa at acm.org (Optimizzin Al-gorithm)
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 18:14:00 -0700
Subject: WTC Collapse Alternative
Message-ID: <3BBFAC58.762AA82B@acm.org>


At 12:51 AM 10/7/01 +0000, Anonymous User wrote:

>You are saying that 4 martyrs in strategically selected corner
>offices on the top floor could bring the building down ?
>
>Come to think of it, no martyrs needed, just fedex packages addressed
>to appropriate offices.


Window cleaners with det cord and/or linear shaped charges.

>
>It's a fragile world.

"For you; not me" -Devo




From declan at well.com  Sat Oct  6 15:17:26 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 18:17:26 -0400
Subject: Background on "Posse Comitatus" (was Re: firing a
  high-powered...)
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3BBE34C3.C8807CAD@acmenet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20011006181331.0211ad90@mail.well.com>


At 03:53 PM 10/5/01 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>It's called "Posse Commitatus," and it's clear that troops cannot be used 
>on U.S. soil.

Tim knows all about this, of course, but for the benefit of the folks who 
may not, here's an excerpt from an article I co-authored a few years ago.

-Declan

[...]
With the end of the cold war, it would have made sense for the U.S. 
military to shrink. Retired Army chief of staff Edward Meyer told a 
Washington Post reporter in 1989 that "the end of the cold war makes it 
inevitable that the Army will shrink far below the 772,000 on duty today."
It didn't. Supporters of an expansive U.S. military have spent the last 
decade finding something for it to do. In the 1980s, Congress amended the 
Posse Comitatus Act of 1878  which restricts the use of troops to enforce 
civilian laws  to let the president enlist the military in the War on 
Drugs. President Reagan in 1986 signed a national security decision 
directive declaring drug trafficking a threat to the security of the United 
States.
The framers of the Constitution opposed standing armies in general, and 
especially their use for any purpose other than defending the country 
against foreign enemies. It was the arrest of civilians by the British 
army, quartering of soldiers in private homes, and similarly incendiary 
tactics that provided the tinder that sparked the American Revolution.
Less than a century later, President Lincoln usurped constitutional 
authority in well-chronicled ways. His justification: The inherent power of 
the commander-in-chief and his duty to "take Care that the Laws be 
faithfully Executed." During the Civil War and Reconstruction, the arrest 
and trial of civilians by military and civilian courts  and the impotence 
of civilian courts when the military refused to respect orders of habeas 
corpus  led to the passage of the Posse Comitatus Act.
Since that time, understanding of the dangers of deploying the military in 
the domestic arena has diminished. Francis Mullen, administrator of the 
Drug Enforcement Agency, once casually dismissed civil libertarians' 
concerns about potential abuses if the military joined law enforcement. 
"There is sufficient oversight on the part of Congress and others," he told 
a Newsweek reporter, "to deter infringement on individual liberties." A 
Democratic congressman characterized the Posse Comitatus Act as a "sinful, 
evil law." Military leaders appear more aware of the danger of deploying 
forces domestically. Marine Major General Stephen G. Olmstead, deputy 
assistant secretary of defense for drug policy, warned a Senate 
subcommittee in 1987 that calling out the military to fight the drug war 
within the U.S. would be unwise. "One of [America's] greatest strengths is 
that the military is responsive to civilian authority and that we do not 
allow the Army, Navy, and the Marines and the Air Force to be a police 
force. History is replete with countries that allowed that to happen. 
Disaster is the result."
Use of military procedure by FBI agents proved disastrous at Ruby Ridge. 
Vicky Weaver was murdered in part because the officers who shot her were 
governed by military rules of engagement. They allow troops to shoot an 
enemy on sight  a far cry from the rules controlling domestic law 
enforcement. At Ruby Ridge the rules of engagement let officers fire at any 
armed adult, rather than engage in usual threat assessment.
Even though using the military to perform civilian functions is 
extraordinarily dangerous, the Posse Comitatus Act has gradually been 
eroded. The Stafford Act of 1984 allows the military to help during natural 
disasters. After a natural disaster, a governor can ask the president to 
declare a state of emergency. Once it declares an emergency, FEMA can 
deploy soldiers on active duty. In August of 1992, the Army was deployed in 
South Florida to respond to Hurricane Andrew, and a month later on the 
island of Kauai after Hurricane Iniki.
Since the Posse Comitatus Act remained in effect during this time, soldiers 
could not enforce the law, arrest or detain civilians, or serve search 
warrants. In South Florida the soldiers doled out aid to citizens and 
illegal immigrants alike, no questions asked. Active-duty soldiers were not 
permitted to provide security at relief centers occupied by civilians.
When it comes to the use of troops to restore order during riots, however, 
the president can suspend the Posse Comitatus Act at the stroke of a pen. 
The act doesn't cover soldiers deployed as authorized by the Constitution 
or exempted from the act by statute. Defense Department regulations* 
outline one of the larger loopholes. It allows the use of soldiers "to 
prevent loss of life or wanton destruction of property and to restore 
governmental functioning and public order when sudden and unexpected civil 
disturbances, disaster, or calamities seriously endanger life and property 
and disrupt normal governmental functions."
The reality? The president can deploy troops whenever he feels like it. 
President Bush did just this in response to the the Los Angeles riots. On 
April 29, 1992, the jury released its verdict in the Rodney King trial. A 
wave of riots followed. On May 1, 1992, California asked the president for 
aid; Bush responded with an executive order allowing the secretary of 
defense to call out the Army.
[...]

* DoD Directive 3025.12.




From declan at well.com  Sat Oct  6 15:26:28 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 18:26:28 -0400
Subject: Gun show friggin loophole
In-Reply-To: <3BBE3751.2A42B910@acmenet.net>; from sfurlong@acmenet.net
  on Fri, Oct 05, 2001 at 06:42:25PM -0400
References: <3BBE3751.2A42B910@acmenet.net>
Message-ID: <20011006182628.B26496@cluebot.com>


As you can probably guess, I had nothing to do with the "gun show
loophole" article; I was in Ohio speaking at a conference and first
learned of it when it appeared on Wired's website.

If you would like to respond and politely suggest other approaches the
article could have taken, I would encourage you to email:
  newsfeedback at wired.com

-Declan


On Fri, Oct 05, 2001 at 06:42:25PM -0400, Steve Furlong wrote:
> A Wired article by Jeffrey Benner ("No Smoking Gun in Terror Bill")
> (http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,47286,00.html) uses the
> phrase "gun show loophole" quite a few times, but doesn't mention the
> Second Amendment (nor even the Ninth and Tenth) even once. No mention of
> how "closing the loophole" would prevent any domestic terrorism. No
> quotes from gun rights people but plenty from gun grabbers.
> 
> Perhaps this would be a good opportunity for Declan to emphasize that
> the opinions and obvious biases of some ill-informed, probably inbred,
> journalists are not necessarily the opinions of the publishers or other
> journalists.
> 
> -- 
> Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
>   617-670-3793
> 
> "Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
> while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From auto301094 at hushmail.com  Sat Oct  6 18:54:29 2001
From: auto301094 at hushmail.com (auto301094 at hushmail.com)
Date: Sat,  6 Oct 2001 18:54:29 -0700
Subject: OT: Could you survive? advanced survival skills test
Message-ID: <200110070154.f971sTQ36884@mailserver1.hushmail.com>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
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Type: application/pgp
Size: 3828 bytes
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URL: 

From nobody at xganon.com  Sat Oct  6 18:08:44 2001
From: nobody at xganon.com (xganon)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 20:08:44 -0500
Subject: BBC: US launches 'anti-terror' satellite
Message-ID: <2da7bd25602b1dff83c4e157342cac33@xganon.com>


US launches 'anti-terror' satellite

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_1582000/1582673.stmThe
United States has launched a satellite which intelligence analystssay will
probably be used to gather information in the global campaignagainst terrorism.The
Titan IV rocket was launched from Vandenberg airforce base inCalifornia on
behalf of the US National Reconnaissance Office, asecretive agency specialising
in providing information for the CIA andthe National Security Agency.The rocket
is believed to have been carrying a top secret KH-11 spysatellite - that could
monitor Afghanistan ahead of an expected militarystrike.The US Air Force refused
to comment on the payload, but the NRO buildsand operates America's spy satellites
and specialises in gatheringpictures and electronic data, such as telephone
conversations on theground.Pin-point accuracyExperts from Aviation Week and
Space Technology Magazine said thesatellite was likely to be equipped with
a digital camera able to pickout objects as small as 10 cm (4 inches) across
on the ground.Orbiting hundreds of miles above the earth the 15 tonne KH-11
is capableof tracking small groups of people walking on the ground as well
asvehicle and weapons movements.It can monitor conversations and even spot
campfires at night usinginfrared technology.Identifying the enemyAccording
to Aviation Magazine such information could be used to monitorthe movements
of Taleban groups and refugees to help allied forcesseparate potentially hostile
groups from "non-combatants".The United States is believed to have spy satellites
over Afghanistanalready as US forces continue to build up nearby ahead of expectedmilitary
strikes.Before 1996 the NRO did not publicly disclose the launches of itssatellites.




From measl at mfn.org  Sat Oct  6 19:10:46 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 21:10:46 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: gargoyling the police site
In-Reply-To: <3BBCBEF9.AD69018B@sarin.com>
Message-ID: 



(yes, this is a long-delayed relpy, as I am just now going over some old
and put-off-till-later emails.)

On Thu, 4 Oct 2001, Khoder bin Hakkin wrote:

> http://policeabuse.org/how.html
> 
> The PCC uses state-of-the-art technology to investigate



I have tried several times over the last year or so to reach the PCC via
email, with no success.  Their site has been fairly static, with no
changes I can detect for about the same period.  

It is terribly unfortunate, as they have done some good work, but I
believe this site is dead...

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Sat Oct  6 21:32:53 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 21:32:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: 11 YO Suspended for Alleged WTC Smiling
Message-ID: <200110070432.f974WrV13857@artifact.psychedelic.net>


Better not express a dissenting point of view when the government school
orders you to sit in your cubicle and write the state-mandated "Peace
Poem."

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/News/DD965CD05B568F2386256ADC00189CA3

-----

A Jefferson County fifth-grader served a three-day suspension this week
for drawing the World Trade Center attack on notebook paper and grinning
while showing it off.

Paul Volz, 11, last week drew the skyscrapers side by side with smoke and
fire pouring from the left tower. He said he taped the drawing to the
outside of his study cubicle at the North Jefferson Intermediate School.

In a discipline notice sent to Paul's parents, school Principal Jeff Boyer
indicated the boy had made "disruptive physical conduct or speech" and
"communication of a threatening nature."

...

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From Anonymous-Remailer at lne.com  Sat Oct  6 15:37:23 2001
From: Anonymous-Remailer at lne.com (Plastic Clover)
Date: 6 Oct 2001 22:37:23 -0000
Subject: New encryption laws for e-mail unlikely
Message-ID: 


New encryption laws for e-mail unlikely

Carrie Kirby, Chronicle Staff Writer

Saturday, October 6, 2001

�2001 San Francisco Chronicle 



URL:  http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2001/10/06/BU201648.DTL
 



As lawmakers re-examined the nation's security in the aftermath of Sept. 11th's
terrorist attacks, the liberal encryption policy established by the Clinton
administration appeared to be a likely target for change.



After all, some reasoned, the policy makes it possible for anyone -- including
possible terrorists -- to send secret e-mails cloaked by codes so strong the
National Security Agency can't crack them.



But now it appears that no crackdown on encryption programs is coming.



The technology industry and others who fought for years for free encryption
were alarmed when, shortly after the attacks, Sen. Judd Gregg, R-N.H., suggested
giving the federal government the keys to unscramble everyone's encoded messages.



In a Senate speech, Gregg called for a system known as "key escrow," in which
all the keys are stored in a database that authorities could access with a
court order.



But the Department of Justice -- in the past the leading proponent of such
limits -- did not mention encryption when it asked Congress for expanded surveillance
powers for fighting terrorism.



"It's not going to happen," said Stewart Baker, a Washington, D.C., technology
lawyer and former general counsel to the NSA. "The Bush people, who watched
the Clinton administration struggle with that unsuccessfully for years,



aren't going to revisit this."



Gregg has yet to put his idea into a bill, and staffers say he has no specific
plans to do so soon.



"I'm feeling more and more confident each day that it won't be (introduced),
" said Rep. Bob Goodlatte, R-Va., who pushed for liberalized encryption laws
the first time around.



"I think that time is on our side on this. If it was on the table ready to
go right after the attack, such legislation probably would have had a better
chance of passing. But as time goes on, there's more time to contemplate its
full effects," said Phil Zimmermann, a computer programmer who created Pretty
Good Privacy, the most widely used e-mail encryption program.



Encryption is used in all kinds of Internet programs. Web browsers like Internet
Explorer and Netscape use it to make secure online credit card transactions
possible.



Before January 2000, government regulations made it difficult or impossible
to export programs containing strong encryption. The tech industry and civil
liberties advocates battled lawmakers' concerns, eventually convincing the
Clinton Administration to lift the restrictions -- without establishing any
kind of "back door" through which law enforcement could spy.



Zimmermann and legislators who fought this battle the first time around say
that the key escrow plan Gregg has advocated would not only diminish the privacy
of individual e-mail users, but that it wouldn't achieve its goal.



Terrorists probably wouldn't use encryption to which U.S. officials had the
keys, said Goodlatte, who co-chairs the Congressional Internet Caucus. U.S.
authorities wouldn't get the keys to encryption products made in other countries,
for example.



"Anybody bent on misusing encryption could buy it from hundreds of foreign
sources or create it themselves," said Goodlatte. "It's been revealed that
(Osama bin Laden) has some very top-notch software engineers."



The plan could also endanger the security of everyone who uses encryption,
critics say.



"The escrow or recovery mechanisms themselves may actually be compromised by
criminals," warned members of the Association for Computing Machinery, a New
York society for technology professionals. Hackers who broke into the database
where the keys were held might use the keys to compromise millions of computers.



While spokesman Brian Hart said Gregg has gotten some positive feedback from
other lawmakers, no one has seconded his idea publicly.



"Gregg seems to be an isolated case," said Bruce Heiman, a Washington attorney
who serves as executive director of Americans for Computer Privacy, a technology
industry group.



Sen. Conrad Burns, R-Mont., has joined Goodlatte in speaking out against encryption
limitations.



Like Goodlatte, Burns pushed for liberalized encryption laws in the 1990s.



Others who joined their fight are still in Congress, such as Rep. Zoe Lofgren,
D-San Jose and Sen. Pat Leahy, D-Vt.



But one of the major proponents, former Missouri Sen. John Ashcroft, is now
the attorney general.



"Ashcroft was on our side at that time. It could be that maybe that's why we're
not seeing something from the Justice Department specifically about encryption,"
Zimmermann said.



E-mail Carrie Kirby at ckirby at sfchronicle.com.



�2001 San Francisco Chronicle � Page�B - 1 






From tcmay at got.net  Sat Oct  6 23:40:04 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 23:40:04 -0700
Subject: 11 YO Suspended for Alleged WTC Smiling
In-Reply-To: <200110070432.f974WrV13857@artifact.psychedelic.net>
Message-ID: <23DC1234-BAEE-11D5-B568-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Saturday, October 6, 2001, at 09:32 PM, Eric Cordian wrote:

> Better not express a dissenting point of view when the government school
> orders you to sit in your cubicle and write the state-mandated "Peace
> Poem."
>
> http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/News/DD965CD05B568F2386256ADC00189CA3
>
> -----
>
> A Jefferson County fifth-grader served a three-day suspension this week
> for drawing the World Trade Center attack on notebook paper and grinning
> while showing it off.
>
> Paul Volz, 11, last week drew the skyscrapers side by side with smoke 
> and
> fire pouring from the left tower. He said he taped the drawing to the
> outside of his study cubicle at the North Jefferson Intermediate School.
>
> In a discipline notice sent to Paul's parents, school Principal Jeff 
> Boyer
> indicated the boy had made "disruptive physical conduct or speech" and
> "communication of a threatening nature."

Someone has dubbed this "griefcrime," after Orwell's "thoughtcrime."

The notion that a child grinning while displaying his "Peace Poem" 
assignment is cheering on some act is bizarre. Many years ago I got 
interested in the way people will smile or grin (or do something besides 
weeps and frown) when they are reacting to bad news or talking about it.

Because of this interest, I've watched thousands of people on t.v. 
dealing with bad news or sorrowful news with various upturns of their 
mouth, grins, etc. Does it mean they're "happy" with what they are 
talking about? No. It means that people react in various ways. Some 
grinning is due to nervous reaction. Some is subconscious.

  (Not that I countenance punishing a person for such thoughtcrime.)

Griefcrime is out of control this time around. When children are 
_required_ by law to attend school, there is no place for punishing them 
for incorrect thoughts...if these thoughts were even incorrect in any 
meaningful sense (pace the point about grins being personal reactions).

I'm glad I don't have any rug rats in the U.S. educational system. I 
expect I'd be arrested for threatening to blow the heads off of teachers 
and administrators.


--Tim May, Occupied America
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety 
deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759.




From anonymous at remailer.havenco.com  Sat Oct  6 17:51:41 2001
From: anonymous at remailer.havenco.com (Anonymous User)
Date: Sun,  7 Oct 2001 00:51:41 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: WTC Collapse Alternative
Message-ID: <066baebdaa5afa638b1e78701ee9b8a2@remailer.havenco.com>


>was not the initial phase, but instead it was the floor structure 
>breaking away from vertical supports. The collapse in this scenario 
>would be that of floors dropping one after the other onto floors 
>below, the load of the upper floors overwhelming the relatively

You are saying that 4 martyrs in strategically selected corner
offices on the top floor could bring the building down ?

Come to think of it, no martyrs needed, just fedex packages addressed
to appropriate offices.

It's a fragile world.




From danrust at thebestisp.com  Sat Oct  6 23:45:15 2001
From: danrust at thebestisp.com (Frontline Learning)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 06:45:15 GMT
Subject: Enhance Employee Competency, Productivity and Morale
Message-ID: 


One of the most effective ways to enhance employee competency, productivity and morale is to offer training TARGETED to the specific needs of each individual. But of course that's easier said than done. To assess an individual's development needs and provide training on specific competencies that address those needs isn't easy. Or quick. Or inexpensive.

So most organizations take a "one size fits all" approach to training, knowing that it isn't ideal, but it's the only approach that's practical and cost-effective. Until now.

You and I have not met, but because you're a respected business professional with an interest in improving employee productivity, I would like to offer you a free preview of Frontline Learning's new SkillMap(tm) Assessment and Development Guidebooks.

These  new resources can help you bring added value to your current training initiatives by targeting each employee's individual development needs. 

This is a truly unique approach to employee development, and if you're open to learning more, please read on. If this is NOT an area of interest for you, I would appreciate it if you would forward this message to the appropriate person in your organization. I won't take up any more of your time, and I wish you continued success.

Kindest regards,

David Kirkeby
VP, Business Development
Frontline Learning


MORE ABOUT SKILLMAPS ...

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You can visit www.frontlinelearning.com for more information, and you can request a free preview at: http://www.frontlinelearning.com/contactus1.htm

I appreciate the time you've taken to read through this, and again, wish you continued success.

Sincerely,

David Kirkeby
763-404-9555

Please note: To remove yourself from our mailing list, click reply and type "REMOVE" in the >SUBJECT< Box.





From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Oct  6 15:20:20 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 08:20:20 +1000
Subject: Seven days
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011007081909.00a21340@pop.useoz.com>


>Envelope-to: mattd at useoz.com
>X-Sender: mattd at pop.useoz.com
>X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0
>Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 06:40:56 +1000
>To: mattd at useoz.com
>From: mattd 
>Subject: inneresting tale
>
>
>Liberty and safety in conflict
>Tuesday 04 September, 2001
>By NATHAN COCHRANE
>Between them, the views of engineer Dave Farber and columnist Dan Gillmor 
>reach into the homes, coding dens and boardrooms of the people who build 
>the technology that surrounds us.
>The trends they see fill them with deep disquiet, tinged with some hope of 
>a better future. And by some cosmic coincidence, they were brought 
>together last week, holidaying at adjacent hotels just up the road from 
>the Opera House in Sydney.
>"The enabling of retro-active ethics generated by these enormous files of 
>information are just dangerous, dangerous to a free society," Farber says 
>of the accumulation of private details in huge databases. "Because some 
>day you could run into a person who knew how to use them: a government, a 
>demagogue."
>He says one way to protect our privacy would be the use of digital rights 
>management technology, which, under international copyright laws, makes it 
>a criminal offence for anyone to break. Despite this, the US Digital 
>Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA), to which our own Digital Agenda Bill 
>strikes an uncanny resemblance, is "asinine" and "encourages sloppiness" 
>in crypto systems, he says.
>"That (DMCA) law is incredibly damaging ... to just about every part of 
>the Bill of Rights," Farber says. " It's sufficiently asinine so it will 
>probably be struck down.
>"If I were a country who isn't committed to it, I would start thinking, 
>well, what are you trying to protect?
>"(You) will have the cost transferred from the company to law enforcement. 
>I would look very, very carefully at what you're buying for that and what 
>you're losing. I think you lose too much."
>Gillmor, on a mission to "excise" Microsoft from his personal life, 
>recommends people wait until next year to buy a new PC. At home he runs a 
>Mac, mostly for his music, which he once played professionally, and Sun's 
>StarOffice on Linux to write his IT column.
>"... (This) is not the news the industry wants, but ... I would wait until 
>probably March until I bought a new computer system ... with (Windows) XP 
>on it because I would not be very trusting of its reliability."
>Farber is blunt: "Don't touch it".
>"It's different to (Windows XP) Professional; fundamentally different," 
>Farber says. "Apparently, it's a bad scene ... and if you look in the 
>manual, you cannot upgrade from Home to Professional. And that's sort of 
>strange."
>While others claim to be Father of the Internet, Farber, the Alfred Fitler 
>Moore Professor of Telecommunications at the University of Pennsylvania, 
>could at least claim to be its eccentric uncle. This elder statesman of 
>the digital age was the primary thesis adviser to Jon Postel, who died in 
>1998, who authored the first handbooks for driving the Internet: the RFC 
>or Requests for Comment series. He has been labelled "powerful" and 
>"visionary" by industry sources. But when Farber talks in his broad New 
>Jersey accent, geeks, suits and silks do listen, as happened when he 
>witnessed in the Microsoft anti-trust trial and when he was the US Federal 
>Communications Commission chief technologist. Moderated postings to his 
>Interesting People e-mail list go to more than 25,000 subscribers several 
>times a day.
>Gillmor's column in Silicon Valley's local newspaper, San Jose's Mercury 
>News, and his online weblog at siliconvalley.com, poke fun and a dose of 
>serious inquiry at the heart of the IT industry. "Desktop computing has 
>been emptied of innovation because people realised there's no way to make 
>money out of it, so it's all moved to the new platforms, which is the 
>Internet, which is the one thing so far Microsoft doesn't control," he says.
>Farber greets with a homemade business card, printed on a budget inkjet 
>printer, which bears his caricature. He answers his mobile phone with a 
>snapped "Dave", and delights in unique turns of phrase that one day should 
>be gathered into a FAQ for posterity.
>His favorite quote is from US revolutionary, inventor and Declaration of 
>Independence signatory Benjamin Franklin: "They that can give up essential 
>liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor 
>safety."
>"I put myself now in the future and I say if you had a rational 
>(anti-communist US Senator) Joe McCarthy who wasn't drunk all the time, 
>what could he do in the current world? Phenomenal," Farber says.
>"He wouldn't have to say with a haze: `Did you ever meet ...?' He could 
>now say: `You traded electronic mail; you visited this website', which is 
>now 20 years later declared subversive."
>He fears the technology being invented at the world's research institutes 
>will be turned on its creators and the rest of us.
>"At a certain company in Redmond, I said a good idea was to read two 
>books," Farber says. "One is one of my favorites (Neal Stephenson's), 
>Snowcrash. The other is re-read (George Orwell's) 1984 and make sure 
>you're not putting in everything necessary to make that happen."
>Gillmor has concerns about Microsoft's push to control the Internet 
>through its .NET initiative, and believes recent attempts by the Linux 
>GNOME user interface founder, Miguel de Icaza, to support it are "naive".
>"My chief concern on .NET right now is the authentication structure that 
>requires the use of Passport, which is completely undocumented technology 
>and completely proprietary and the only allowed authentication system," 
>Gillmor says.
>He says individuals should "triangulate" to subvert the influence of big 
>companies. His personal computer is a Mac, he uses the services of the US 
>number-three ISP, and gets his pay-TV from satellite rather than the 
>dominant cable operator.
>"It would be helpful for everybody if lots of people made decisions not 
>solely based on what's the easiest thing to do today," Gillmor says.
>"My deepest worry is citizens have actually concluded they're willing to 
>sacrifice their liberty for this illusion of safety."
>Farber: "Someone sent me a note saying, `You know, Australia was very 
>lucky; they sent you (the US) the Puritans and us the criminals'.
>"Sounds like you've got a lot of Puritans also."
>LINKS Dave Farber - www.cis.upenn.edu/~farber/
>Dan's column - www.siliconvalley.com/opinion/dgillmor/




From sally at internationalexhibits.com  Sun Oct  7 09:26:23 2001
From: sally at internationalexhibits.com (Sally Daugherty)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 09:26:23 -0700
Subject: A request to send you information
Message-ID: <01C14F12.24007560@tc04-1-8-120.tscnet.net>


Hello,

I would like the opportunity to introduce our company to you.  We design and manufacture trade show exhibits, in-store displays, point-of-purchase displays, and kiosks.  We also specialize in modular conference furniture and conference rooms.   If you have an interest, I would like to send you our web link and a little more information.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Regards,

Sally Daugherty
1-360-769-9726

This is intended as a one time email.  Please write remove in the subject line and hit reply to be removed from the data base.  Thank you.





From jya at pipeline.com  Sun Oct  7 09:36:01 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 09:36:01 -0700
Subject: WTC Collapse Alternative
In-Reply-To: <066baebdaa5afa638b1e78701ee9b8a2@remailer.havenco.com>
Message-ID: <200110071342.JAA12102@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>


It would not take a lot of explosives to breakaway an entire floor
constructed with steel joists like WTC; it is often done in planned 
demolitions with a small charge placed at each joist support --
customarily a shelf angle either continuous or segmented.

What would do it though without explosives is the twisting torque 
and vertical flexing in the tower tubes caused by an aircraft hitting 
off center of the tower's axis at 300 mph. 

Survivors tell of the tower swaying several feet, but they are not 
likely to have perceived the torque as such. The hit on the South 
Tower (the second hit) was more off center than that on the 
North Tower.

Tall buildings are designed with some torque resistance against
turbulent weather and earthquake but probably not for torque 
coupled with high impact. 

The WTC towers were made of two tubes, the exterior wall system 
(the more flexible) and the interior core (the more rigid), the two 
tubes connected by light-weight floor structures and at about 
1/3 intervals, heavy-weight transfer and mechanical equipment 
floors.

>From examining the wreckage the steel floor joists rested on shelf
angles welded to vertical supports. These angles are designed to
support vertical loads not much twisting.

The joists could have lost their support by tower twisting of no more 
than a few inches, the shelf angle welding beads popping, or the 
joists slipping off the angles that did not break loose (as photos
show many did not).

If the floor slab concrete was not reinforced it would have crumbled
easily under torque. Again, most building structure is designed to
resist vertical loading not substantial twisting. (Structural connections 
are designed to resist relatively minor twisting caused by static
and dynamic loading.)

There is a valid question of why the buildings did not collapse immediately 
if floor structures were damaged and serial pancaking set in motion.
The raging fires surely contributed to further weakening of the
building structure, but probably due to adverse effect on floor structures
and in particular on the light-weight shelf-angle welded connections 
between the floor system and the heavy-weight vertical supports.

It is at these connections that demolition designers place light-weight
charges, as well as heavy-weight cutting charges on vertical supports.

For comparison, a WTC shelf angle may be 1/2 to 3/4 inches thick 
welded with a bead about the same while a vertical columnon WTC 
could average 2-3 inches thick, increasing in thickness from top to
bottom.

The WTC designers claim the buildings were capable of withstanding
a 727 hit, asserted at original building and after the 1993 bombing.
But the design criteria for that protection have not been published
so it cannot be determined what crash scenario was used for design.




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Oct  6 16:40:53 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 09:40:53 +1000
Subject: jim bell well justified
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011007093140.00a38cd0@pop.useoz.com>


Leonard peltier,just down the hall from chris boyce,would tell you an 
extradition story or two.Or read "in the
spirit of crazy horse' by peter matthiessen.Clintons capital offense must 
surely be the pardongate fiasco.
Getting back to jim.WTF is the reward money doing unencrypted? I know 
THEY[tm] worry over their own scurvy hides
but this is an emergency.(reward for usama BL reputed to be aprox 60 
mill.)AP is required NOW,where are the
dashing cypherpunks of yore?usama bin laden? Id buy that for a dollar!




From bestdailynews at list.outcomemail.com  Sun Oct  7 10:13:24 2001
From: bestdailynews at list.outcomemail.com (bestdailynews at list.outcomemail.com)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 10:13:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Sorry to see you go.
Message-ID: <3006996.1002475038609.JavaMail.root@mlserve>


f




From schear at lvcm.com  Sun Oct  7 10:26:11 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 10:26:11 -0700
Subject: BEING WATCHED: A Cautionary Tale for a New Age of Surveillance 
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011007102509.05b67100@pop3.lvcm.com>


BEING WATCHED
A Cautionary Tale for a New Age of Surveillance
By JEFFREY ROSEN
October 7, 2001
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/07/magazine/07SURVEILLANCE.html


I had gone to Britain to answer a question that seems far more
pertinent today than it did early last month: why would a free and
flourishing Western democracy wire itself up with so many
closed-circuit television cameras that it resembles the set of ''The
Real World'' or ''The Truman Show''? The answer, I discovered, was
fear of terrorism. In 1993 and 1994, two terrorist bombs planted by
the I.R.A. exploded in London's financial district, a historic and
densely packed square mile known as the City of London. In response to
widespread public anxiety about terrorism, the government decided to
install a ''ring of steel'' -- a network of closed-circuit television
cameras mounted on the eight official entry gates that control access
to the City.

Anxiety about terrorism didn't go away, and the cameras in Britain
continued to multiply. In 1994, a 2-year-old boy named Jamie Bulger
was kidnapped and murdered by two 10-year-old schoolboys, and
surveillance cameras captured a grainy shot of the killers leading
their victim out of a shopping center. Bulger's assailants couldn't,
in fact, be identified on camera -- they were caught because they
talked to their friends -- but the video footage, replayed over and
over again on television, shook the country to its core. Riding a wave
of enthusiasm for closed-circuit television, or CCTV, created by the
attacks, John Major's Conservative government decided to devote more
than three-quarters of its crime-prevention budget to encourage local
authorities to install CCTV. The promise of cameras as a magic bullet
against crime and terrorism inspired one of Major's most successful
campaign slogans: ''If you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing
to fear.''



The ideal of America has from the beginning been an insistence that
your opportunities shouldn't be limited by your background or your
database; that no doors should be permanently closed to anyone who has
the wrong smart card. If the 21st century proves to be a time when
this ideal is abandoned -- a time of surveillance cameras and creepy
biometric face scanning in Times Square -- then Osama bin Laden will
have inflicted an even more terrible blow than we now imagine.




From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org  Sun Oct  7 07:28:38 2001
From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz)
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 10:28:38 -0400
Subject: 11 YO Suspended for Alleged WTC Smiling
References: <23DC1234-BAEE-11D5-B568-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <3BC06696.8060608@dragonsweb.org>


Tim May wrote:

> On Saturday, October 6, 2001, at 09:32 PM, Eric Cordian wrote:
> 
>> Better not express a dissenting point of view when the government school
>> orders you to sit in your cubicle and write the state-mandated "Peace
>> Poem."
>>
>> http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/News/DD965CD05B568F2386256ADC00189CA3 
>>
>>
>> -----
>>
>> A Jefferson County fifth-grader served a three-day suspension this week
>> for drawing the World Trade Center attack on notebook paper and grinning
>> while showing it off.
>>
>> Paul Volz, 11, last week drew the skyscrapers side by side with smoke and
>> fire pouring from the left tower. He said he taped the drawing to the
>> outside of his study cubicle at the North Jefferson Intermediate School.
>>
>> In a discipline notice sent to Paul's parents, school Principal Jeff 
>> Boyer
>> indicated the boy had made "disruptive physical conduct or speech" and
>> "communication of a threatening nature."
> 
> 
> Someone has dubbed this "griefcrime," after Orwell's "thoughtcrime."
> 
> The notion that a child grinning while displaying his "Peace Poem" 
> assignment is cheering on some act is bizarre. Many years ago I got 
> interested in the way people will smile or grin (or do something besides 
> weeps and frown) when they are reacting to bad news or talking about it.
> 
> Because of this interest, I've watched thousands of people on t.v. 
> dealing with bad news or sorrowful news with various upturns of their 
> mouth, grins, etc. Does it mean they're "happy" with what they are 
> talking about? No. It means that people react in various ways. Some 
> grinning is due to nervous reaction. Some is subconscious.
> 
>  (Not that I countenance punishing a person for such thoughtcrime.)
> 
> Griefcrime is out of control this time around. When children are 
> _required_ by law to attend school, there is no place for punishing them 
> for incorrect thoughts...if these thoughts were even incorrect in any 
> meaningful sense (pace the point about grins being personal reactions).
> 
> I'm glad I don't have any rug rats in the U.S. educational system. I 
> expect I'd be arrested for threatening to blow the heads off of teachers 
> and administrators.
> 
> 
> --Tim May, Occupied America
> "They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety 
> deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759.
> 
> 

No, no, don't punish him. He is obviously traumatized by the incident 
and, and like so many other kids,  needs counseling, treatment. And 
medication. Don't forget medication,  so he can be trusted not disrupt 
his "Just Say No" D.A.R.E. lectures. Congress should  immediately 
appropriate $100 billion to help America's youth deal with this tragedy.

Now that I've got that out of my system, did it ever occur to any of 
these idiots that, to most normal 11-year old boys, the idea of planes 
crashing into skyscrapers might just be a way-cool, fascinating subject?

What's really disturbing is that it almost certainly did.

jbdigriz




From oa at acm.org  Sun Oct  7 10:51:01 2001
From: oa at acm.org (Optimizzin Al-gorithm)
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 10:51:01 -0700
Subject: Pilots threaten strike if kept disarmed
Message-ID: <3BC09605.79C92A25@acm.org>


http://www.theunionleader.com/articles_show.html?article=5752

News - October 5, 2001

            Pilots threaten to stop
            service if kept unarmed
            By KATHRYN MARCHOCKI
            Union Leader Staff

            Commercial airline pilots will be asked to suspend air
service if they cannot have trained,
            armed pilots in the cockpits, a New Hampshire pilot said.

            A resolution that will be circulated among the various
councils of the 67,000-member Air
            Line Pilots Association this month asks federal regulations
be changed to allow for the
            voluntary arming of flight crew members, Robert Giuda, a
United Airlines captain of
            Warren said.

            Had we had armed pilots on Sept. 11, we wouldnt have the
horrific tragedy that were
            dealing with at this point, Giuda said of the four hijacked
jetliners.

            Pilots would first get training in firearms by the FBI and
would use their weapons only to
            defend against an attempted breach of the cockpit, the
resolution said.

            The resolution also calls for federal licensing of pilots to
carry concealed weapons and for
            the government to indemnify air carriers and their employees
against the legitimate use of a
            firearm.

            If those steps are not carried out, the resolution calls for
a national suspension of air
            service, at such times and in such manner as is deemed
appropriate by the leadership of the
            Air Line Pilots Association.

            Were hearing members of Congress say they dont want a
bunch of armed hooligans
            running around, said Giuda, a New Hampshire state
representative.

            He said there was no more professionalized,
highly-scrutinized group of people in the
            world than airline pilots.

            The security of the flight deck cannot depend solely on
armed sky marshals, he said.

            Sky marshals can be picked out of a crowd and, if
overpowered, would provide a hijacker
            with a weapon, Giuda said.

            Its time to throw the gauntlet to the mat. We are going to
get politicized into unarmed
            cockpits and then well get shot with the guns the marshals
used because they will be taken
            away from them, he added.

            Arming pilots introduces the element of risk, fear and
doubt into the mind of a potential
            hijacker, he said.




From oa at acm.org  Sun Oct  7 11:48:51 2001
From: oa at acm.org (Optimizzin Al-gorithm)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 11:48:51 -0700
Subject: Pilots threaten strike if kept disarmed
Message-ID: <20011007114851.A31334@navel.introspect>


[Reformatted for legibility.  Please take the few moments required to
ensure that materials posted are readable.  KMSelf]

http://www.theunionleader.com/articles_show.html?article=5752

News - October 5, 2001

    Pilots threaten to stop
    service if kept unarmed
    By KATHRYN MARCHOCKI
    Union Leader Staff

    Commercial airline pilots will be asked to suspend air
    service if they cannot have trained, armed pilots in the cockpits, a
    New Hampshire pilot said.

    A resolution that will be circulated among the various councils of
    the 67,000-member Air Line Pilots Association this month asks
    federal regulations be changed to allow for the voluntary arming of
    flight crew members, Robert Giuda, a United Airlines captain of
    Warren said.

    "Had we had armed pilots on Sept. 11, we wouldn't have the
    horrific tragedy that we're dealing with at this point," Giuda
    said of the four hijacked jetliners.

    Pilots would first get training in firearms by the FBI and would use
    their weapons only to defend against an attempted breach of the
    cockpit, the resolution said.

    The resolution also calls for federal licensing of pilots to carry
    concealed weapons and for the government to indemnify air carriers
    and their employees against the legitimate use of a firearm.

    If those steps are not carried out, the resolution calls for a
    national suspension of air service, at such times and in such manner
    as is deemed appropriate by the leadership of the Air Line Pilots
    Association."

    "We're hearing members of Congress say they don't want a bunch of
    armed hooligans running around," said Giuda, a New Hampshire state
    representative.

    He said there was "no more professionalized, highly-scrutinized
    group of people in the world than airline pilots."

    The security of the flight deck cannot depend solely on armed sky
    marshals, he said.

    Sky marshals can be picked out of a crowd and, if overpowered, would
    provide a hijacker with a weapon, Giuda said.

    "It's time to throw the gauntlet to the mat. We are going to get
    politicized into unarmed cockpits and then we'll get shot with the
    guns the marshals used because they will be taken away from them,"
    he added.

    Arming pilots introduces the element of "risk, fear and doubt"
    into the mind of a potential hijacker, he said.




From tolan at citipages.net  Sun Oct  7 04:09:13 2001
From: tolan at citipages.net (Tolan Blundell)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 12:09:13 +0100
Subject: ZKS Shutdown
In-Reply-To: <87wv29kgdn.fsf_-_@c0re.rc23.cx>
Message-ID: 


thanks

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at ssz.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at ssz.com]On
Behalf Of Doobee R. Tzeck
Sent: 05 October 2001 20:59
To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
Subject: CDR: Re: ZKS Shutdown



"Tolan Blundell"  writes:

> I used to use freedom, but i kept forgetting my passphrase..lame i know
but
> hey.
>
> I was wondering if there are any open source projects that perform a
similar
> function (pseudonym based ip traffic anonymising, and remailing) out
there?

I'm aware of http://www.authnet.org/anonnet/ and
http://fling.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php?OverviewOfFling

drt

--
teenage mutant ninja hero coders from da c0re - http://c0re.jp/
me                                            - http://koeln.ccc.de/~drt/




From anonymous at anonymizer.com  Sun Oct  7 12:22:00 2001
From: anonymous at anonymizer.com (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 12:22 -0700
Subject: KABUL BOOM BOOM
Message-ID: <200110071922.MAA11323@sirius.infonex.com>





From sog at w-link.net  Sun Oct  7 12:24:39 2001
From: sog at w-link.net (CJ Parker)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 12:24:39 -0700
Subject: Let's Attack The Irish White Christian Terroroists...
Message-ID: <000e01c14f65$b966d560$760da2cd@vaio>

Of course we're not attacking a Religion or a Country's 'people'...
So let's prove it by launching Air Strikes against the Irish Republican Army Terrorists and the Irish Government entities that give them aid and support.  Lets launch Air Strikes against the homes and families of the SeanPennSeanFeind Irish Politicians who support terroroism.

I'm certain that there are plenty of Arab/Islamic nations that would be more than happy to join in a ColdItion to launch Murderous Military Strikes against White Christian Terrorists and the governments and political parties which support them...and if not...then we could Pressure them into supporting it, using threats of embargos and financial sanctions.

I'm not really up on current events.  I've spent a lot of time during the last three years being chained in my own shit and piss by the American Justice System as Puni$hMint for being DisAbled, so I am wondering if there are any other WhiteChristianTerrorists and U.S.-Allies that need to be Attacked and Murdered in order to emphasize to the World that we are not just using our MilitaryMight to fuck with Islamic SandNiggers and their UnApproved Governments (that we used to support and probably put in power in the first place, but now that they no longer serve our purposes, we intend to Murder&OR&Depose them...)

While we're at it, let's launch an AirStrike against TheSingleInnocentChild [TM] that U.S. politicians use as an excuse to take away all of our Civil Liberties...

AverageRationalThinker #05987-196

[DisClaimer: The above Rant/DiaTribe is not meant to suggest that I do not wholeheartedly Support&OR&Enjoy the current MayHem&OR&HawIng taking place, as much or more than the next Red(OtherPeople's)BloodedAmerican...]

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From reeza at hawaii.rr.com  Sun Oct  7 17:16:35 2001
From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese)
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 14:16:35 -1000
Subject: Another precious moment from shrub...
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011007141301.02c57cf0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com>


At 06:14 PM 10/7/01 -0500, measl at mfn.org wrote:
 >
 >Pasted from CNN:
 >
 >"More than two weeks ago, I gave Taliban leaders a series of clear and
 >specific demands: Close terrorist training camps, hand over leaders of the
 >Al Qaeda network and return all foreign nationals, including American
 >citizens unjustly detained in our country," Bush said.
 >
 >Detained in OUR country???  Jesus this guy is an idiot..

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/10/07/ret.bush.transcript/

Or maybe the transcriber is (it says "their country")

Reese




From JamesLDean at compuserve.com  Sun Oct  7 12:00:26 2001
From: JamesLDean at compuserve.com (James L. Dean)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 15:00:26 -0400
Subject: Tony Blair's body language
Message-ID: <200110071500_MC3-E261-FC17@compuserve.com>


Is Tony Blair lying when he touches his nose?




From julian at extropy.demon.co.uk  Sun Oct  7 08:45:25 2001
From: julian at extropy.demon.co.uk (Julian Morrison)
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 16:45:25 +0100
Subject: ZKS Shutdown
References: 
Message-ID: <3BC07895.868EF414@extropy.demon.co.uk>


Tolan Blundell wrote:
> 
> http://fling.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php?OverviewOfFling

I'm the inventor of Fling.

Fling is similar to ZKS, but with subtle difference: the route is
prebuilt *from the recipient, back to themself*. The sender picks up
this prebuilt route frome someplace or via some search system, and uses
it to guide a data packet. The data packet can be their own return
address, allowing bidirectional communication to be set up.

good results:

- the anonymity hides the IPs of both parties, unlike ZKS

- there is no need for a (economically and strategically vulnerable)
company to control things, it can be totally peer-to-peer


bad result:

- you can't anymore use it to route packets to normal IPs (since IPs are
hidden), except maybe via some third party proxy service. To get the
full security benefit, data packets must stay inside the Fling system
all the way.

The current status of Fling is: designed, but not built.

I'm in progress of building the underlying encrypted packet relay system
ATM, once that's done I'll move to building Fling on top of it.




From jamesd at echeque.com  Sun Oct  7 16:53:58 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 16:53:58 -0700
Subject: Let's Attack The Irish White Christian Terroroists...
In-Reply-To: <000e01c14f65$b966d560$760da2cd@vaio>
Message-ID: <3BC088A6.5698.1087C60@localhost>


    --
On 7 Oct 2001, at 12:24, CJ Parker wrote:
> Of course we're not attacking a Religion or a Country's
> 'people'... So let's prove it by launching Air Strikes
> against the Irish Republican Army Terrorists and the Irish
> Government entities that give them aid and support.  Lets
> launch Air Strikes against the homes and families of the
> SeanPennSeanFeind Irish Politicians who support terroroism.

The IRA did not kill six thousand US civilians in a terrorist
attack.


    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     iiFUC8uafuVrrToI88MCEr42E+LuqFSh1jV0mpSN
     4ygXvsQIjZjaHmiY4ahJR5Aar8tEXVIdVDWzlzv8S




From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org  Sun Oct  7 13:56:32 2001
From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz)
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 16:56:32 -0400
Subject: Let's Attack The Irish White Christian Terroroists...
References: <000e01c14f65$b966d560$760da2cd@vaio>
Message-ID: <3BC0C180.3070403@dragonsweb.org>


CJ Parker wrote:

> Of course we're not attacking a Religion or a Country's 'people'...
> 
> So let's prove it by launching Air Strikes against the Irish Republican 
> Army Terrorists and the Irish Government entities that give them aid and 
> support.  Lets launch Air Strikes against the homes and families of the 
> SeanPennSeanFeind Irish Politicians who support terroroism.
> 
>  
> 
> I'm certain that there are plenty of Arab/Islamic nations that would be 
> more than happy to join in a ColdItion to launch Murderous Military 
> Strikes against White Christian Terrorists and the governments and 
> political parties which support them...and if not...then we could 
> Pressure them into supporting it, using threats of embargos and 
> financial sanctions.
> 
>  
> 
> I'm not really up on current events.  I've spent a lot of time 
> during the last three years being chained in my own shit and piss by the 
> American Justice System as Puni$hMint for being DisAbled, so I am 
> wondering if there are any other WhiteChristianTerrorists and 
> U.S.-Allies that need to be Attacked and Murdered in order to emphasize 
> to the World that we are not just using our MilitaryMight to fuck with 
> Islamic SandNiggers and their UnApproved Governments (that we used to 
> support and probably put in power in the first place, but now that they 
> no longer serve our purposes, we intend to Murder&OR&Depose them...)
> 
>  
> 
> While we're at it, let's launch an AirStrike against 
> TheSingleInnocentChild [TM] that U.S. politicians use as an excuse to 
> take away all of our Civil Liberties...
> 
>  
> 
> AverageRationalThinker #05987-196
> 
>  
> 
> [DisClaimer: The above Rant/DiaTribe is not meant to suggest that I do 
> not wholeheartedly Support&OR&Enjoy the current MayHem&OR&HawIng taking 
> place, as much or more than the next Red(OtherPeople's)BloodedAmerican...]
> 
>  
> 

Don't worry, you're on the short list for the Dirty Dozen, sog. (Son O' 
God?)

jbdigriz




From georgemw at speakeasy.net  Sun Oct  7 17:09:12 2001
From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 17:09:12 -0700
Subject: Another precious moment from shrub...
In-Reply-To: <3BC0E8E0.9030601@dragonsweb.org>
Message-ID: <3BC08C38.5232.2AD50195@localhost>


On 7 Oct 2001, at 19:44, James B. DiGriz wrote:

> measl at mfn.org wrote:
> 
> > Pasted from CNN:
> > 
> > "More than two weeks ago, I gave Taliban leaders a series of clear and
> > specific demands: Close terrorist training camps, hand over leaders of the
> > Al Qaeda network and return all foreign nationals, including American
> > citizens unjustly detained in our country," Bush said. 
> > 
> > Detained in OUR country???  Jesus this guy is an idiot..
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> I just watched replay of his statement. That's a typo on somebody's 
> part. He clearly said "your".
> 
> jbdigriz
> 
> 

Well,  SOMEBODY is clearly an idiot.  Of course, 
neither a slip of the tongue nor a typo are really
signs of idiocy. 

George




From fogstorm at mac.com  Sun Oct  7 17:29:33 2001
From: fogstorm at mac.com (FogStorm)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 17:29:33 -0700
Subject: Let's Attack The Irish White Christian Terroroists...
In-Reply-To: <3BC088A6.5698.1087C60@localhost>
Message-ID: <200110080029.RAA20486@smtpout.mac.com>


On Sunday, October 7, 2001, at 04:53  PM, jamesd at echeque.com wrote:

> On 7 Oct 2001, at 12:24, CJ Parker wrote:
>> Of course we're not attacking a Religion or a Country's
>> 'people'... So let's prove it by launching Air Strikes
>> against the Irish Republican Army Terrorists and the Irish
>> Government entities that give them aid and support.  Lets
>> launch Air Strikes against the homes and families of the
>> SeanPennSeanFeind Irish Politicians who support terroroism.
>
> The IRA did not kill six thousand US civilians in a terrorist
> attack.

IIRC when the IRA attacks economic infrastructure targets they generally 
phone in a warning far enough in advance that the area can be evacuated.




From measl at mfn.org  Sun Oct  7 16:14:40 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 18:14:40 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Another precious moment from shrub...
Message-ID: 



Pasted from CNN:

"More than two weeks ago, I gave Taliban leaders a series of clear and
specific demands: Close terrorist training camps, hand over leaders of the
Al Qaeda network and return all foreign nationals, including American
citizens unjustly detained in our country," Bush said. 

Detained in OUR country???  Jesus this guy is an idiot..

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From reeza at hawaii.rr.com  Sun Oct  7 22:05:47 2001
From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese)
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 19:05:47 -1000
Subject: What color are anthrax spores anyway?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011007190449.02e0d2f0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com>


Take it to heart.  It sounds like an update on the Klingerman Virus.




At 11:52 PM 10/7/01 -0500, measl at mfn.org wrote:
 >
 >Just for the record, I just received a note stating this may in fact be a
 >hoax...
 >
 >On Sun, 7 Oct 2001 measl at mfn.org wrote:
 >
 >> Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 23:34:10 -0500 (CDT)
 >> From: measl at mfn.org
 >> Reply-To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
 >> To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
 >> Subject: CDR: What color are anthrax spores anyway?
 >>
 >>
 >> Hialeah, Florida-AP -- Florida officials say five people have been
 >> hospitalized after opening envelopes containing a mysterious white
 >> powder. Officials with the Hialeah Fire-Rescue Department in suburban
 >> Miami say one person at an apartment was taken to the hospital today after
 >> opening a manila envelope. Yesterday, four people at a house 20 blocks
 >> away were exposed to an apparently identical powder mailed in a manila
 >> envelope. They contacted authorities today and were hospitalized. Three of
 >> them are being treated for low-grade fevers. The F-B-I and emergency
 >> officials have quarantined the home, taking the mail as well as the
 >> clothing the occupants were wearing at the time. Preliminary testing of
 >> the substance could be completed today.
 >>
 >>
 >
 >--
 >Yours,
 >J.A. Terranson
 >sysadmin at mfn.org
 >
 >If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
 >should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
 >Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
 >unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
 >the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and
 >elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
 >populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
 >This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
 >as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
 >
 >The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
 >associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
 >those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
 >first place...
 >--------------------------------------------------------------------




From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org  Sun Oct  7 16:44:32 2001
From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz)
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 19:44:32 -0400
Subject: Another precious moment from shrub...
References: 
Message-ID: <3BC0E8E0.9030601@dragonsweb.org>


measl at mfn.org wrote:

> Pasted from CNN:
> 
> "More than two weeks ago, I gave Taliban leaders a series of clear and
> specific demands: Close terrorist training camps, hand over leaders of the
> Al Qaeda network and return all foreign nationals, including American
> citizens unjustly detained in our country," Bush said. 
> 
> Detained in OUR country???  Jesus this guy is an idiot..
> 
> 


I just watched replay of his statement. That's a typo on somebody's 
part. He clearly said "your".

jbdigriz




From paul at robichaux.net  Sun Oct  7 17:58:45 2001
From: paul at robichaux.net (Paul E. Robichaux)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 19:58:45 -0500
Subject: "HNC Developing New Air Security Software"
Message-ID: <311999AFA3B0FB419DBC4C85EF10556E47B2@cyclone.robichaux.local>


HNC made their nut selling neural networks to a variety of friendly
neighborhood TLAs and credit-card issuers. I suspect that their "new"
software is just a neural network trained with surveillance and ticketing
data. Hardly new.

-----Original Message-----
From: James B. DiGriz [mailto:jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org] 
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2001 4:11 PM
To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
Subject: "HNC Developing New Air Security Software"


Xeni Jardin wrote:

> The Reuters story follows, and the HNC corporate press release 
> announcing the project is here:
> 
>  .f
> useaction=ShowRelease>
> 
> press release excerpt:
> 
> < reservation records and other related data, the predictive software 
> could identify suspicious transactions. Flagged information can be 
> immediately investigated by experts to increase security and travel 
> efficiency.... With the ability to instantly analyze all available 
> structured data and unstructured data, airlines could proactively take 
> critical action related to passenger safety.
> 
> "By using high-end risk analytics and decisioning engines, we can help 
> airlines, airports and law enforcement agencies identify patterns that 
> warrant further investigation - without intrusive security measures," 
> explained John Mutch, chief executive officer of HNC. "Much of HNC's 
> technology research has been funded over the years by defense and 
> intelligence organizations. We're delighted to put this technology to 
> use to increase traveler safety."
> 
> HNC's Critical Action software, which uses anonymous mathematical 
> algorithms that cannot be reverse engineered, identifies patterns in 
> data that would not be noticed using any other method. HNC's 
> technology can scan structured and unstructured data, detect patterns, 
> categorize, prioritize and automatically route information to relevant 
> security agency personnel.>>
> 
> --XJ
> 

I'm dubious about the "anonymous mathematical algorithms that cannot be

reverse engineered" part, and I'm skeptical about the "we're gonna cork

up the mind of God and bottle it for those worthy/rich enough to afford

it" aspect. Sounds like snake oil to me.

Data mining, pattern-recognition, AI, ubiquitous surveillance, etc. are

just tools. The biggest danger, beyond flawed premises in the code, such 

as, for instance, ignoring second-order and higher observer loop effects,

or  beyond willful misuse, is GIGO. The central issues are still 

political, anyway. None of this matters if I'm not bothering you and you

come fuck with me, in other words. And, hey, two can play the same game. 

Thank you, Mr. Felsenstein, et al.

Choate, feel free to forward to psychohistory.

jbdigirz




From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org  Sun Oct  7 17:15:15 2001
From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz)
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 20:15:15 -0400
Subject: Another precious moment from shrub...
References:  <3BC0E8E0.9030601@dragonsweb.org>
Message-ID: <3BC0F013.5040508@dragonsweb.org>


James B. DiGriz wrote:

> measl at mfn.org wrote:
> 
>> Pasted from CNN:
>>
>> "More than two weeks ago, I gave Taliban leaders a series of clear and
>> specific demands: Close terrorist training camps, hand over leaders of 
>> the
>> Al Qaeda network and return all foreign nationals, including American
>> citizens unjustly detained in our country," Bush said.
>> Detained in OUR country???  Jesus this guy is an idiot..
>>
>>
> 
> 
> I just watched replay of his statement. That's a typo on somebody's 
> part. He clearly said "your".
> 
> jbdigriz
> 
> 

The transcript I just found on CNN's website has "their", which is 
ambiguous, as well as not what he said. .

Somebody practicing a little Heinleinian psycholinguistic sabotage? :-)

jbdigriz




From declan at well.com  Sun Oct  7 17:28:05 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 20:28:05 -0400
Subject: Another precious moment from shrub...
In-Reply-To: <3BC08C38.5232.2AD50195@localhost>; from georgemw@speakeasy.net on Sun, Oct 07, 2001 at 05:09:12PM -0700
References: <3BC0E8E0.9030601@dragonsweb.org> <3BC08C38.5232.2AD50195@localhost>
Message-ID: <20011007202804.A3221@cluebot.com>


Often transcripts are done phonetically and touched-up by hand. Or,
if the repasted quote came from an article, well, CNN reporters have
been known to make mistakes on occasion, just like anyone else.

-Declan


On Sun, Oct 07, 2001 at 05:09:12PM -0700, georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote:
> On 7 Oct 2001, at 19:44, James B. DiGriz wrote:
> 
> > measl at mfn.org wrote:
> > 
> > > Pasted from CNN:
> > > 
> > > "More than two weeks ago, I gave Taliban leaders a series of clear and
> > > specific demands: Close terrorist training camps, hand over leaders of the
> > > Al Qaeda network and return all foreign nationals, including American
> > > citizens unjustly detained in our country," Bush said. 
> > > 
> > > Detained in OUR country???  Jesus this guy is an idiot..
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > I just watched replay of his statement. That's a typo on somebody's 
> > part. He clearly said "your".
> > 
> > jbdigriz
> > 
> > 
> 
> Well,  SOMEBODY is clearly an idiot.  Of course, 
> neither a slip of the tongue nor a typo are really
> signs of idiocy. 
> 
> George




From measl at mfn.org  Sun Oct  7 18:29:27 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 20:29:27 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Another precious moment from shrub...
In-Reply-To: <3BC0E8E0.9030601@dragonsweb.org>
Message-ID: 



On Sun, 7 Oct 2001, James B. DiGriz wrote:

> measl at mfn.org wrote:
> 
> > Pasted from CNN:
> > 
> > "More than two weeks ago, I gave Taliban leaders a series of clear and
> > specific demands: Close terrorist training camps, hand over leaders of the
> > Al Qaeda network and return all foreign nationals, including American
> > citizens unjustly detained in our country," Bush said. 
> > 
> > Detained in OUR country???  Jesus this guy is an idiot..
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> I just watched replay of his statement. That's a typo on somebody's 
> part. He clearly said "your".

Ok, the transcriber is an idiot as well :-)

> jbdigriz

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org  Sun Oct  7 17:31:27 2001
From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz)
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 20:31:27 -0400
Subject: Another precious moment from shrub...
References: <3BC08C38.5232.2AD50195@localhost>
Message-ID: <3BC0F3DF.2030901@dragonsweb.org>


georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote:

> 
> Well,  SOMEBODY is clearly an idiot.  Of course, 
> neither a slip of the tongue nor a typo are really
> signs of idiocy. 
> 
> George
> 


Of coruse not.

jbdigriz

``
"I resemble that remark!"

 






From measl at mfn.org  Sun Oct  7 18:34:32 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 20:34:32 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [IAP NEWS] Amnesty International urges investigation of
 Ariel Sharon (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Sun, 7 Oct 2001, !Dr. Joe Baptista wrote:

> A number of criminal complaints have been lodged with the
> Belgian courts against leaders and prominent members of
> past and present governments. In addition to Ariel Sharon,
> these have included: former Chilean President General
> Augusto Pinochet; former Speaker of Parliament and
> President of the Islamic Republic of Iran Hojjatoleslam
> Ali Akbar Rafsanjani; former Moroccan Minister of Interior
> Driss Basri; former Foreign Minister Abdoulaye Yerodia
> Ndombasi and several other government ministers of the
> Democratic Republic of the Congo;  President Paul Kagame
> of Rwanda; former President Hissene Habre of Chad; and
> President Saddam Hussein of Iraq.

And where is Kissinger?


-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From reeza at hawaii.rr.com  Sun Oct  7 23:46:44 2001
From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese)
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 20:46:44 -1000
Subject: What color are anthrax spores anyway?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011007231914.046a7970@bivens.parrhesia.com>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011007190449.02e0d2f0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com >
 
 
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011007202409.02c2ceb0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com>


At 11:21 PM 10/7/01 -0700, Greg Broiles wrote:
 >At 07:05 PM 10/7/2001 -1000, Reese wrote:
 >
 >>Take it to heart.  It sounds like an update on the Klingerman Virus.
 >>
 >>
 >
 >It also sounds remarkably like this article from the Miami Herald's website
 >mentioning four people hospitalized after opening an envelope full of
 >mysterious white powder -
 >
 >

Which isn't so different from



but it isn't like the other news agencies are pushing and shoving to
report either one.  Until they do, I'm just a little skeptical.

Reese




From baptista at pccf.net  Sun Oct  7 18:05:06 2001
From: baptista at pccf.net (!Dr. Joe Baptista)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 21:05:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [IAP NEWS] Amnesty International urges investigation of Ariel Sharon
 (fwd)
Message-ID: 



http://www.web.amnesty.org/web/news.nsf/WebAll/A13E3C3399DC3A3A80256AD90057029E?OpenDocument

TEXT:

Assalamu'alaikum

AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL Latest Press Release

Amnesty International urges investigation of Ariel Sharon

Publish date: 03/10/2001

A court in Brussels will today (3 October 2001) begin to
consider arguments about whether Israel's Prime Minister
Ariel Sharon may be investigated in Belgium for alleged
war crimes committed in Lebanon in 1982 while he was
Israel's Minister of Defence.

"Amnesty International welcomes actions taken in
accordance with international law to combat impunity,"
said the organization. "We support the judicial
investigation into Ariel Sharon's responsibility with
regard to the Sabra and Shatila massacre." 

The complaint against Sharon was first lodged with the
Belgian Public Prosecutor's Office in June 2001. Ariel
Sharon was Minister of Defence, with overall
responsibility for the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF), at
the time of the 1982 massacre of Palestinians in Sabra and
Shatila refugee camps on the outskirts of Beirut. The IDF
allowed the Lebanese Phalange militia to enter the camps
where the killing of hundreds, mostly Palestinian
refugees, continued for at least 30 hours. The
complainants, a group of 23 Lebanese and Palestinians, had
filed the case under Belgian legislation enacted in 1993
and 1999 which allows Belgian courts to prosecute
foreigners for certain offences committed abroad,
including genocide, war crimes and crimes against
humanity. However, the resulting investigation was
suspended by the investigating magistrate in early
September 2001 until doubts about the legal validity of
the procedure were resolved. 

Amnesty International calls on states to ensure prompt,
thorough and independent investigations wherever
allegations of crimes under international law are made. If
such an investigation shows there is enough evidence for a
prosecution, then, in accordance with international law
which allows the national courts of any state to try
people accused of such crimes, regardless of the
nationality of the alleged perpetrators or victims and
regardless of where the crimes were committed, Amnesty
International calls on states to bring the accused to
trial or extradite them to another country for trial,
provided certain safeguards are met. No one may be
extradited to a country which cannot assure that any trial
on such charges meets international standards for fairness
and does not result in the imposition of the death penalty
or other cruel, inhuman or degrading punishment. 

The lawyer representing Israel argued that Belgium lacks
the legal authority to try Ariel Sharon on charges
relating to the 1982 massacre. Among her arguments the
lawyer stated that Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has
immunity as a head of government; the case had already
been considered in Israel by the Kahan Commission of
Inquiry, which was a judicial commission; the 1993 law
cannot be used retroactively; and the case has no
connection with Belgium. A Brussels public prosecutor
rejected the defence arguments and said that the case
should go ahead. The court hearing due to start on 3
October will rule on the legality of the proceedings
against Ariel Sharon in Belgium, not on the content of the
case against him.

Amnesty International has welcomed Belgium's universal
jurisdiction laws and the 27 August 2001 statements
attributed to Belgian Prime Minister Guy Verhofstadt
voicing support for the legislation and suggesting that it
be extended to the entire European Union.

The first case involving the exercise of universal
jurisdiction to come to trial in Belgium resulted in the
conviction in June 2001 of four Rwandan nationals for war
crimes committed in 1994. Amnesty International welcomed
this judgement as a significant step forward in the use of
universal jurisdiction, an essential tool in the struggle
against impunity.

A number of criminal complaints have been lodged with the
Belgian courts against leaders and prominent members of
past and present governments. In addition to Ariel Sharon,
these have included: former Chilean President General
Augusto Pinochet; former Speaker of Parliament and
President of the Islamic Republic of Iran Hojjatoleslam
Ali Akbar Rafsanjani; former Moroccan Minister of Interior
Driss Basri; former Foreign Minister Abdoulaye Yerodia
Ndombasi and several other government ministers of the
Democratic Republic of the Congo;  President Paul Kagame
of Rwanda; former President Hissene Habre of Chad; and
President Saddam Hussein of Iraq.

Background

The principle of universal jurisdiction permits the
national courts of any state to try people accused of
crimes under international law, including war crimes,
crimes against humanity, and genocide as well as torture,
extrajudicial executions and "disappearances," regardless
of the nationality of the alleged perpetrators or victims
and regardless of where the crimes were committed.

In 1983 the official Israeli Commission of Inquiry into
the Events at the Refugee Camps in Beirut concluded that
Minister of Defence Ariel Sharon had "disregarded the
danger of acts of vengeance and bloodshed by
Phalangists...  failed to take this danger into account
when he decided to have the Phalangists enter the
camps...[and had not ordered] appropriate measures for
preventing or reducing the danger of massacre as a
condition for the Phalangists' entry into the camps." The
commission recommended that "the Minister of Defence draw
the appropriate personal conclusions arising out of the
defects revealed with regard to the manner in which he
discharged the duties of his office." Ariel Sharon
resigned from his position as Minister of Defence
following publication of the Commission's report in 1983.
In February 2001 Ariel Sharon was elected Prime Minister
of Israel; he took office in March.

****************************************
For more information please call Amnesty International's
press office in London, UK, on +44 20 7413 5566
Amnesty International, 1 Easton St., London WC1X 0DW web :
http://www.amnesty.org 


-- 
Joe Baptista

http://www.dot-god.com/





From die at die.com  Sun Oct  7 18:22:05 2001
From: die at die.com (Dave Emery)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 21:22:05 -0400
Subject: Restrictions on ownership of surplus gear - now nearly law...
Message-ID: <20011007212205.B19419@die.com>


----- Forwarded message from Bob Wilder  -----


From measl at mfn.org  Sun Oct  7 19:23:42 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 21:23:42 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/community.html
Message-ID: 




" It's typical of this professing Christian, god-loving country to begin
the killing on a Sunday. And Bush offering up the sons and daughters of a
free republic 'they may have to give up their lives' to protect the
monarchs and future profits of big oil. " 

-- Clint Hartley 


-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From mailer-daemon at jinet.com  Sun Oct  7 21:45:52 2001
From: mailer-daemon at jinet.com (mailer-daemon at jinet.com)
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 21:45:52 -0700
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <74421552@jinet.com>



From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Sun Oct  7 22:17:05 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 22:17:05 -0700
Subject: Let's Attack The Irish White Christian Terroroists...
In-Reply-To: <200110080029.RAA20486@smtpout.mac.com>
References: <3BC088A6.5698.1087C60@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011007220846.038554a0@idiom.com>


At 05:29 PM 10/07/2001 -0700, FogStorm wrote:
>On Sunday, October 7, 2001, at 04:53  PM, jamesd at echeque.com wrote:
>
>>On 7 Oct 2001, at 12:24, CJ Parker wrote:
>>>Of course we're not attacking a Religion or a Country's
>>>'people'... So let's prove it by launching Air Strikes
>>>against the Irish Republican Army Terrorists and the Irish
>>>Government entities that give them aid and support.  Lets
>>>launch Air Strikes against the homes and families of the
>>>SeanPennSeanFeind Irish Politicians who support terroroism.
>>
>>The IRA did not kill six thousand US civilians in a terrorist
>>attack.
>
>IIRC when the IRA attacks economic infrastructure targets
>they generally phone in a warning far enough in advance that the area can 
>be evacuated.

Yes, but they don't do that when they're bombing pubs or department stores.
Bobby Sands's suicide for his cause didn't kill other people,
but that doesn't mean the IRA as a whole aren't murderers and thugs
(nor does it mean the British overlords or the
more extreme Protestant groups aren't murderers or thugs either.)

On the other hand, US tobacco merchants, who kill about 7000 Americans per 
week,
plus some harder-to-estimate number of people in other countries,
have been putting warnings on their products for 35 years,
and lots of people still don't get out of the way in time.
(Plus the US government has not only subsidized growers over the years,
they've actively subsidized tobacco export marketing.)




From declan at well.com  Sun Oct  7 19:40:53 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 22:40:53 -0400
Subject: Another precious moment from shrub...
In-Reply-To: <3BC0F013.5040508@dragonsweb.org>; from jbdigriz@dragonsweb.org on Sun, Oct 07, 2001 at 08:15:15PM -0400
References:  <3BC0E8E0.9030601@dragonsweb.org> <3BC0F013.5040508@dragonsweb.org>
Message-ID: <20011007224052.A1505@cluebot.com>



http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/10/20011007-8.html
"More than two weeks ago, I gave Taliban leaders a series of clear and
specific demands: Close terrorist training camps; hand over leaders of
the al Qaeda network; and return all foreign nationals, including
American citizens, unjustly detained in your country."




On Sun, Oct 07, 2001 at 08:15:15PM -0400, James B. DiGriz wrote:
> James B. DiGriz wrote:
> 
> > measl at mfn.org wrote:
> > 
> >> Pasted from CNN:
> >>
> >> "More than two weeks ago, I gave Taliban leaders a series of clear and
> >> specific demands: Close terrorist training camps, hand over leaders of 
> >> the
> >> Al Qaeda network and return all foreign nationals, including American
> >> citizens unjustly detained in our country," Bush said.
> >> Detained in OUR country???  Jesus this guy is an idiot..
> >>
> >>
> > 
> > 
> > I just watched replay of his statement. That's a typo on somebody's 
> > part. He clearly said "your".
> > 
> > jbdigriz
> > 
> > 
> 
> The transcript I just found on CNN's website has "their", which is 
> ambiguous, as well as not what he said. .
> 
> Somebody practicing a little Heinleinian psycholinguistic sabotage? :-)
> 
> jbdigriz




From elyn at consect.com  Sun Oct  7 20:09:02 2001
From: elyn at consect.com (Elyn Wollensky)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 23:09:02 -0400
Subject: [IAP NEWS] Amnesty International urges investigation of Ariel Sharon (fwd)
References: 
Message-ID: <006401c14fa6$9577b3e0$6b8d1d18@nyc.rr.com>



> And where is Kissinger?

At this very moment in Kent, CT ... 
;~)
e 

 
> 
> -- 
> Yours, 
> J.A. Terranson
> sysadmin at mfn.org
> 





From gbroiles at well.com  Sun Oct  7 23:21:53 2001
From: gbroiles at well.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 23:21:53 -0700
Subject: What color are anthrax spores anyway?
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011007190449.02e0d2f0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com
  >
References: 
  
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011007231914.046a7970@bivens.parrhesia.com>


At 07:05 PM 10/7/2001 -1000, Reese wrote:

>Take it to heart.  It sounds like an update on the Klingerman Virus.
>
>

It also sounds remarkably like this article from the Miami Herald's website 
mentioning four people hospitalized after opening an envelope full of 
mysterious white powder -




--
Greg Broiles
gbroiles at well.com
"We have found and closed the thing you watch us with." -- New Delhi street kids




From measl at mfn.org  Sun Oct  7 21:34:10 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 23:34:10 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: What color are anthrax spores anyway?
Message-ID: 



Hialeah, Florida-AP -- Florida officials say five people have been
hospitalized after opening envelopes containing a mysterious white
powder. Officials with the Hialeah Fire-Rescue Department in suburban
Miami say one person at an apartment was taken to the hospital today after
opening a manila envelope. Yesterday, four people at a house 20 blocks
away were exposed to an apparently identical powder mailed in a manila
envelope. They contacted authorities today and were hospitalized. Three of
them are being treated for low-grade fevers. The F-B-I and emergency
officials have quarantined the home, taking the mail as well as the
clothing the occupants were wearing at the time. Preliminary testing of
the substance could be completed today. 

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From measl at mfn.org  Sun Oct  7 21:52:12 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 23:52:12 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: What color are anthrax spores anyway?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Just for the record, I just received a note stating this may in fact be a
hoax...

On Sun, 7 Oct 2001 measl at mfn.org wrote:

> Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 23:34:10 -0500 (CDT)
> From: measl at mfn.org
> Reply-To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> Subject: CDR: What color are anthrax spores anyway?
> 
> 
> Hialeah, Florida-AP -- Florida officials say five people have been
> hospitalized after opening envelopes containing a mysterious white
> powder. Officials with the Hialeah Fire-Rescue Department in suburban
> Miami say one person at an apartment was taken to the hospital today after
> opening a manila envelope. Yesterday, four people at a house 20 blocks
> away were exposed to an apparently identical powder mailed in a manila
> envelope. They contacted authorities today and were hospitalized. Three of
> them are being treated for low-grade fevers. The F-B-I and emergency
> officials have quarantined the home, taking the mail as well as the
> clothing the occupants were wearing at the time. Preliminary testing of
> the substance could be completed today. 
> 
> 

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From tcmay at got.net  Sun Oct  7 23:54:50 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 23:54:50 -0700
Subject: Internet Hoax Articles Considered Harmful
In-Reply-To: <20011008014331.A14907@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <5E835924-BBB9-11D5-B568-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Sunday, October 7, 2001, at 10:43 PM, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Hint: This isn't the style AP uses.
>
> The biggest problem would-be hoaxers have is crafting articles in the
> appropriate style -- very, very few can pull it off.



Monday October 8 2:16 AM ET

Ridge Warns on Internet Hoax Articles

By Winston Blair, Associated Press Writer

PHILADELPHIA, Pennyslvania (AP) - Homeland Defense Secretary Tom Ridge 
said Sunday that the U.S. faces a serious and expanding threat from 
fraudulent Internet articles, or hoaxes.

``These articles often sway the gullible,'' he told a press conference 
in Philadelphia. ``It cannot be permitted. The freedom of speech we 
enshrine in our Constitution is not the freedom to speak frivolously in 
times of war. There are no free speech advocates in foxholes.''

Ridge stressed that the U.S moves to limit false news articles will be 
done with input from civil liberties groups, saying the moves are 
``against info-terrorists, info-terrorism, their sanctuaries and their 
supporters.''




From jamesd at echeque.com  Mon Oct  8 01:15:13 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 01:15:13 -0700
Subject: Let's Attack The Irish White Christian Terroroists...
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20011007220846.038554a0@idiom.com>
References: <200110080029.RAA20486@smtpout.mac.com>
Message-ID: <3BC0FE21.13506.390475@localhost>


    --
James A. Donald:
> > > The IRA did not kill six thousand US civilians in a
> > > terrorist attack.

Bill Stewart
> On the other hand, US tobacco merchants, who kill about
> 7000 Americans per week,

US tobacco merchants have not killed one American, but if the
government extended the war on drugs to tobacco, which would
be logical enough, for tobacco is more addictive and more
dangerous than any of the currently banned drugs, then the
DEA would kill quite a lot of Americans by shooting them
through the head, though probably not seven thousand per
week. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     c1kyPMGWWOSQJ4NqWBWeLBxlBwfIhj/SE8wtba09
     4ikBeNnleD8dPjOmLxwjX1FLHF9q9cdsF0I/9OwZx




From jamesd at echeque.com  Mon Oct  8 01:15:13 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 01:15:13 -0700
Subject: Another precious moment from shrub...
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3BC0FE21.7584.390438@localhost>


    --
On 8 Oct 2001, at 8:40, Nomen Nescio wrote:
> The really peculiar thing about Bush's speech was that
> while he was giving his war talk, you could see through the
> window behind him that people were flying kites in the
> park.  How bizarre to juxtapose the fragile innocence of
> kite-flying with the harsh reality of warfare.

Not bizarre at all.  All the images were very carefully
planned.

The non verbal images, the visuals, put the message that to
protect our ordinary, everyday, innocent way of life, will
require a heavy burden, a lot of warfare, carried out for a
long time, with no quick victories.

> And anyone notice that Rumsfield is losing it?  At his last
> press conference he was shaky, he wasn't answering the
> questions, he was trailing off and losing his train of
> thought.

He was being asked questions that would reveal the US
military strategy and tactics.

> Reminiscent of Reagan in his second term.

That would be the term where he made the world safe for
democracy and capitalism.

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     Fa0mlvZmzc53Lfp+ieaqeyJhWiQszGv4qymuiu7z
     45NZIDFgSTWwJgcUaqG8gwv4+YfdqTXZRvg+ZVfjb




From measl at mfn.org  Sun Oct  7 23:30:25 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 01:30:25 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: What color are anthrax spores anyway?
In-Reply-To: <20011008014331.A14907@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 8 Oct 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Hint: This isn't the style AP uses.

I actually went to the ap.org site to see if I could verify before
forwarding, but was unsuccessful: as near as I can tell, the general 
public doesn't get in, only their subscribers.

As for failing to know their format: totally guilty as charged.  That's
why I was *trying* to give it at least a cursory authentication .

> The biggest problem would-be hoaxers have is crafting articles in the
> appropriate style -- very, very few can pull it off.
> 
> -Declan

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From declan at well.com  Sun Oct  7 22:43:31 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 01:43:31 -0400
Subject: What color are anthrax spores anyway?
In-Reply-To: ; from measl@mfn.org on Sun, Oct 07, 2001 at 11:52:12PM -0500
References:  
Message-ID: <20011008014331.A14907@cluebot.com>


Hint: This isn't the style AP uses.

The biggest problem would-be hoaxers have is crafting articles in the
appropriate style -- very, very few can pull it off.

-Declan



On Sun, Oct 07, 2001 at 11:52:12PM -0500, measl at mfn.org wrote:
> Just for the record, I just received a note stating this may in fact be a
> hoax...
> 
> On Sun, 7 Oct 2001 measl at mfn.org wrote:
> 
> > Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 23:34:10 -0500 (CDT)
> > From: measl at mfn.org
> > Reply-To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> > To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> > Subject: CDR: What color are anthrax spores anyway?
> > 
> > 
> > Hialeah, Florida-AP -- Florida officials say five people have been
> > hospitalized after opening envelopes containing a mysterious white
> > powder. Officials with the Hialeah Fire-Rescue Department in suburban
> > Miami say one person at an apartment was taken to the hospital today after
> > opening a manila envelope. Yesterday, four people at a house 20 blocks
> > away were exposed to an apparently identical powder mailed in a manila
> > envelope. They contacted authorities today and were hospitalized. Three of
> > them are being treated for low-grade fevers. The F-B-I and emergency
> > officials have quarantined the home, taking the mail as well as the
> > clothing the occupants were wearing at the time. Preliminary testing of
> > the substance could be completed today. 
> > 
> > 
> 
> -- 
> Yours, 
> J.A. Terranson
> sysadmin at mfn.org
> 
> If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
> should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
> Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
> unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
> the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
> elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
> populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
> This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
> as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
> 
> The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
> associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
> those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
> first place...
> --------------------------------------------------------------------




From solmazfletcher at n2mail.com  Sun Oct  7 16:52:10 2001
From: solmazfletcher at n2mail.com (solmazfletcher at n2mail.com)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 01:52:10 +0200
Subject: ATTENTION: LOOKING FOR EMAIL PROCESSOR WHO WANTS TO WORK AT HOME
Message-ID: <1355724-220011007235210130@n2mail.com>


  Work from home,using your computer.Either full time or part time hours, your choice.
No up-front money required.
Full online training is provided.
All you need is a computer with Internet and email access and a desire to make
a change.Contact

solmazfletcher at yahoo.com

with Show me in subject.





From o30o3tto30o3 at yahoo.com  Mon Oct  8 01:20:54 2001
From: o30o3tto30o3 at yahoo.com (o30o3tto30o3 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 03:20:54 -0500
Subject: Stop Getting Ripped OFF By Your Long Distance Company                   20136
Message-ID: <0000183b151b$000060ad$00002967@mx1.mail.yahoo.com>

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From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Oct  7 13:55:21 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 06:55:21 +1000
Subject: tony blairs body language
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011008065210.00a51eb0@pop.useoz.com>


Is Tony Blair lying when he touches his nose?


yes,and when he opens his mouth too and all.Funny thing is he believes in them.




From xeni at xeni.net  Mon Oct  8 07:26:58 2001
From: xeni at xeni.net (Xeni Jardin)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 07:26:58 -0700
Subject: Second man tests positive for anthrax; media building closed
Message-ID: 


http://www.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/10/08/florida.anthrax.case/index.html

<>




From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Oct  8 05:35:13 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 07:35:13 -0500
Subject: The Register - Music biz wants tougher DMCA, CPRM2 to protect copyright
Message-ID: <3BC19D81.ACC58433@ssz.com>


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/22087.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com  Mon Oct  8 07:46:03 2001
From: sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com (sonofgomez709)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 07:46:03 -0700
Subject: Fuck Judge Robert Bryan In The Ass...
Message-ID: <003e01c15008$2238e900$520da2cd@vaio>

I was just going over my legal work and ended up reading Judge Bryan's statements at my sentencing.
Playing to the Public/Press, he made some PretentiousBullShit statement about those who are ready to Criticize TheSYSTEM taking the time to observe TheSYSTEM at work in cases such as mine...as if anybody had...except for the GovernMint Advertised HighLites such as my sentencing.

FUCK JUDGE ROBERT BRYAN!!!

If anybody *had* cared to observe Ameri%an Ju$tU$ at work during my case, they would have observed me being denied food, water, medical treatment, clothing, bedding, sanitation, etc., and being subjected to various physical and mental abuses and tortures, all while being held UnConstitutionally without benefit of a Bail Hearing under the Constitutionally Abusive Authority of Judge Robert Bryan.

I challenge anyone involved in the Secret Service's Staged Trial of me to read the Constitution and point out to me a single of my Constitutional Rights that were not denied to me.  Just a single one...it can't be done...

FuckTheseMorons!Monger #05987-196
http://profiles.yahoo.com/sonofgomez709

http://www.technopagan.org/politics/xenix/

http://members.w-link.net/~sog/INDEX.HTM
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From sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com  Mon Oct  8 08:10:45 2001
From: sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com (sonofgomez709)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 08:10:45 -0700
Subject: Let's Attack The Irish White Christian Terroroists... 
Message-ID: <005501c1500b$68ae4bc0$520da2cd@vaio>

  a.. Subject: CDR: Re: Let's Attack The Irish White Christian Terroroists... 
  b.. From: Bill Stewart  
  c.. Sender: owner-cypherpunks at ssz.com 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  On the other hand, US tobacco merchants, who kill about 7000 Americans per 
  week,
  plus some harder-to-estimate number of people in other countries,
  have been putting warnings on their products for 35 years,
  and lots of people still don't get out of the way in time.
  (Plus the US government has not only subsidized growers over the years,
  they've actively subsidized tobacco export marketing.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
   
The Politically Correct AntiSmoker's Lobby would no doubt vote for AirStrikes against Smokers, for their Complicity in their own TobaccoTerrorist Murders...
By extension those who Visit Federal Buildings in the Future could be considered to be Complicit&OR&CocoaConsPirateWhores in their own Murders, and thus we could launch AirStrikes against them after their death...

OfCourseOfCourse [TM] the Present Political/Social Climate might not be best for supporting AirStrikes against the Graves of the Victims of the WTC Disaster, but once the BloodLust gets PumpedUp by the MainStreamDreamPentagonAnnexedPress, I'm sure someone can slip this program in without anyone raising objections.
(But it won't be me, eh? I'm trying to keep a low profile...)


#05987-196
http://profiles.yahoo.com/sonofgomez709
http://www.technopagan.org/politics/xenix/

http://members.w-link.net/~sog/INDEX.HTM
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From nobody at dizum.com  Sun Oct  7 23:40:15 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Mon,  8 Oct 2001 08:40:15 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Another precious moment from shrub...
Message-ID: 


The really peculiar thing about Bush's speech was that while he was
giving his war talk, you could see through the window behind him that
people were flying kites in the park.  How bizarre to juxtapose the
fragile innocence of kite-flying with the harsh reality of warfare.

And anyone notice that Rumsfield is losing it?  At his last press
conference he was shaky, he wasn't answering the questions, he was
trailing off and losing his train of thought.  Reminiscent of Reagan in
his second term.




From declan at well.com  Mon Oct  8 05:44:14 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 08:44:14 -0400
Subject: Internet Hoax Articles Considered Harmful
In-Reply-To: <5E835924-BBB9-11D5-B568-0050E439C473@got.net>; from
  tcmay@got.net on Sun, Oct 07, 2001 at 11:54:50PM -0700
References: <20011008014331.A14907@cluebot.com>
  <5E835924-BBB9-11D5-B568-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <20011008084414.B14907@cluebot.com>


On Sun, Oct 07, 2001 at 11:54:50PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> PHILADELPHIA, Pennyslvania (AP) - Homeland Defense Secretary Tom Ridge 
> said Sunday that the U.S. faces a serious and expanding threat from 
> fraudulent Internet articles, or hoaxes.

Almost. The most obvious sign that this is a hoax is your inclusion
of the state in the dateline. For major cities, it's usually not included.

-Declan




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Mon Oct  8 08:56:00 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 08:56:00 -0700
Subject: USG pulls 'sensitive' info off net
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011003144553.04ac98b0@pop3.lvcm.com>
References: <20011003122909.F9292@navel.introspect>
  <20011003110004.A24438@cluebot.com> <3BBB14BD.5EDF8705@sarin.com>
  <20011003110004.A24438@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011008084646.03752540@idiom.com>


>> > > Must've never heard of caching..
>> > > http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-100301safe.story
>>
>> > Inevitable next step: Enterprising cypherpunk registers
>> > censoredfedinfo.org, hunts through google's cache, posts everything
>> > there, etc.
>>
>>Note that there are a relatively small number of Googles on the Net.
>
>The trouble with Google and most other spiders is that they cannot access 
>the DBs behind the sites.  Various industry estimates place the amount of 
>data not accessible to crawlers at up to 500x the html content.  What's 
>needed are open access data mining sites using more sophisticated crawlers 
>like http://telegraph.cs.berkeley.edu/

More to the point, most spiders don't cache images, only text,
so much of the interesting content isn't cached.
I'm not sure how many of them cache PDFs; some of those are
searchable and indexable, while some are just bitmaps.

On the other hand, the Feds generally don't have as much
fancy-graphics-design-for-inaccessibility, so more of their text
may be cacheable than typical business sites.

Shutting down web sites with data that terrorists could use
has been going on for a few years - apparently many of the
haz-mat sites are no longer accessible to the public,
including one of the Bay Area sites that shut down a few weeks
before we had a major refinery fire.  Yes, there are potential
threats to public safety if terrorists can use this data,
but there are more serious threats if the public can't use it
to determine what's near them, and far more serious threats
if fire departments can't access the data conveniently.




From jamesd at echeque.com  Mon Oct  8 09:07:59 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 09:07:59 -0700
Subject: Let's Attack The Irish White Christian Terroroists...
In-Reply-To: 
References: jamesd@echeque.com's message of "Sun, 7 Oct 2001 16:53:58 -0700"
Message-ID: <3BC16CEF.6579.3F9FDF@localhost>


    --
On 7 Oct 2001, at 12:24, CJ Parker wrote:
> > > Of course we're not attacking a Religion or a Country's 
> > > 'people'... So let's prove it by launching Air Strikes 
> > > against the Irish Republican Army Terrorists and the
> > > Irish Government entities that give them aid and
> > > support.  Lets launch Air Strikes against the homes and
> > > families of the SeanPennSeanFeind Irish Politicians who
> > > support terroroism.

James A. Donald:
> > The IRA did not kill six thousand US civilians in a
> > terrorist attack.

On 8 Oct 2001, at 11:08, Steve Mynott wrote:
> No but it has killed over two thousand UK civilians in its
> terrorist attacks.

Then let the UK invade ireland.

Oops, it already tried that.  In fact some people would argue
it is still doing that. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     T5Pbj1R4HK2P7FcBGiE4MtnMboIiERrDiyxiijz
     4dP72b+T6QOt1j4BL2XMBm+LQhQvLWFXcDnlF08xu




From sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com  Mon Oct  8 09:15:24 2001
From: sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com (sonofgomez709)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 09:15:24 -0700
Subject: Guilt by Distribution 
Message-ID: <007a01c15014$7a89be20$520da2cd@vaio>


From tcmay at got.net  Mon Oct  8 09:17:07 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 09:17:07 -0700
Subject: Internet Hoax Articles Considered Harmful
In-Reply-To: <20011008084414.B14907@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: 


On Monday, October 8, 2001, at 05:44 AM, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 07, 2001 at 11:54:50PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
>> PHILADELPHIA, Pennyslvania (AP) - Homeland Defense Secretary Tom Ridge
>> said Sunday that the U.S. faces a serious and expanding threat from
>> fraudulent Internet articles, or hoaxes.
>
> Almost. The most obvious sign that this is a hoax is your inclusion
> of the state in the dateline. For major cities, it's usually not 
> included.
>
> -Declan
>

Oh? Except for the most common cities (Washington, New York, Los 
Angeles, etc.), my sampling shows they usually give the state. Sometimes 
abbreviated to 2-4 letters, sometimes spelled out completely. Here are 
some AP items I pullled:

(By the way, the last item is NOT a hoax by me, and confirms what I 
posted from the Bloomberg site a few days ago.)

--Tim May


FAIRBANKS, Alaska (AP) - Crews on Saturday installed a clamp over a 
bullet hole in the trans-Alaska pipeline, finally stopping a leak that 
spewed 285,600 gallons of oil onto the wilderness over three days.

KNOB NOSTER, Mo. (AP) - They heard the rumbles and their houses shook. 
As they sat in their homes next to Whiteman Air Force Base, residents 
knew the retaliations had begun.

BOCA RATON, Fla. (AP) - A co-worker of the man who died last week from 
anthrax also has tested positive for the disease and the building where 
both worked was closed after the bacterium was detected there.




From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org  Mon Oct  8 06:20:47 2001
From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 09:20:47 -0400
Subject: What color are anthrax spores anyway?
References:    <5.1.0.14.2.20011007231914.046a7970@bivens.parrhesia.com>
Message-ID: <3BC1A82F.7090906@dragonsweb.org>


Greg Broiles wrote:

> At 07:05 PM 10/7/2001 -1000, Reese wrote:
> 
>> Take it to heart.  It sounds like an update on the Klingerman Virus.
>>
>>  
>>
> 
> 
> It also sounds remarkably like this article from the Miami Herald's 
> website mentioning four people hospitalized after opening an envelope 
> full of mysterious white powder -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Greg Broiles
> gbroiles at well.com
> "We have found and closed the thing you watch us with." -- New Delhi 
> street kids
> 
> 

Followup at:

http://www.miami.com/herald/content/news/local/dade/digdocs/116037.htm




From tcmay at got.net  Mon Oct  8 09:23:10 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 09:23:10 -0700
Subject: Second man tests positive for anthrax; media building
  closed
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Monday, October 8, 2001, at 07:26 AM, Xeni Jardin wrote:

> http://www.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/10/08/florida.anthrax.case/index.html
>
> < second man has tested positive for anthrax bacteria.
>
> The Associated Press reported that it was unclear when final tests would
> tell whether or not the second man has full-blown anthrax. The bacterium
> normally has an incubation period of up to seven days, but could take up
> to 60 days to develop, the AP reported, citing local health officials.
>
> State and local health officials closed a building where a 63-year-old
> Florida man who died of anthrax worked, after a sample from the building
> and from another employee showed the presence of the bacterium that
> causes anthrax.

This confirms the news I posted a few days ago. The first known case of 
inhalational anthrax in 25 years happens at this time. Then the second...

Moreover, in the same small town of Lantana where three of the WTC 
pilots lived and worked.

Mighty weird coincidence, if it is. One coincidence is probably that, 
but more?

(A complete speculation, admittedly, is the connection with the first 
dead guy's occupation: a photographer for the weekly tabloid "The Sun." 
Speculations that he was photographing the WTC pilots and their small 
plane for a "scoop" on bioterrorism are unsubstantiated.)

--Tim May

--Tim May, Corralitos, California
Quote of the Month: "It is said that there are no atheists in foxholes; 
perhaps there are no true libertarians in times of terrorist attacks." 
--Cathy Young, "Reason Magazine," both enemies of liberty.




From reeza at hawaii.rr.com  Mon Oct  8 13:10:06 2001
From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 10:10:06 -1000
Subject: What color are anthrax spores anyway?
In-Reply-To: <20011008160910.C7668@cluebot.com>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011007202409.02c2ceb0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com>
  <4.3.2.7.2.20011007190449.02e0d2f0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com
  
  
  <5.1.0.14.2.20011007231914.046a7970@bivens.parrhesia.com>
  <4.3.2.7.2.20011007202409.02c2ceb0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011008100940.02c441c0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com>


At 04:09 PM 10/8/01 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
 >On Sun, Oct 07, 2001 at 08:46:44PM -1000, Reese wrote:
 >> but it isn't like the other news agencies are pushing and shoving to
 >> report either one.  Until they do, I'm just a little skeptical.
 >
 >Not so. Driving back from Arlington a moment ago, I heard it on NPR
 >(or on the NPR affiliate's pickup of the BBC feed, close enough).

That is today - last night was a little different.  ;)

Reese




From anonymous at anonymizer.com  Mon Oct  8 10:42:00 2001
From: anonymous at anonymizer.com (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 10:42 -0700
Subject: anthrax vector
Message-ID: <200110081742.KAA22100@sirius.infonex.com>


>Anthrax spores can be spread by skin contact 

An STD contracted from camels?

>with infected animals, consumption of their meat, 
>or by inhalation. 
>
>There have been only 18 cases of inhaled anthrax 
>in the past century in the US. No one is known 
>to have survived.




From steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk  Mon Oct  8 04:08:39 2001
From: steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk (Steve Mynott)
Date: 08 Oct 2001 11:08:39 +0000
Subject: Let's Attack The Irish White Christian Terroroists...
In-Reply-To: jamesd@echeque.com's message of "Sun, 7 Oct 2001 16:53:58 -0700"
References: <3BC088A6.5698.1087C60@localhost>
Message-ID: 


jamesd at echeque.com writes:

>     --
> On 7 Oct 2001, at 12:24, CJ Parker wrote:
> > Of course we're not attacking a Religion or a Country's
> > 'people'... So let's prove it by launching Air Strikes
> > against the Irish Republican Army Terrorists and the Irish
> > Government entities that give them aid and support.  Lets
> > launch Air Strikes against the homes and families of the
> > SeanPennSeanFeind Irish Politicians who support terroroism.
> 
> The IRA did not kill six thousand US civilians in a terrorist
> attack.

No but it has killed over two thousand UK civilians in its terrorist
attacks.

Maybe the UK government should use its cruise missiles in selective
strikes against the areas of Boston where the terrorists appear to get
their support?

Or maybe not...

-- 
1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk

progress (n.):  the process through which the internet has evolved from smart   
people in front of dumb terminals to dumb people in front of smart
terminals.   




From steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk  Mon Oct  8 04:11:44 2001
From: steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk (Steve Mynott)
Date: 08 Oct 2001 11:11:44 +0000
Subject: Let's Attack The Irish White Christian Terroroists...
In-Reply-To: FogStorm's message of "Sun, 7 Oct 2001 17:29:33 -0700"
References: <200110080029.RAA20486@smtpout.mac.com>
Message-ID: 


FogStorm  writes:

> On Sunday, October 7, 2001, at 04:53  PM, jamesd at echeque.com wrote:
> 
> > On 7 Oct 2001, at 12:24, CJ Parker wrote:
> >> Of course we're not attacking a Religion or a Country's
> >> 'people'... So let's prove it by launching Air Strikes
> >> against the Irish Republican Army Terrorists and the Irish
> >> Government entities that give them aid and support.  Lets
> >> launch Air Strikes against the homes and families of the
> >> SeanPennSeanFeind Irish Politicians who support terroroism.
> >
> > The IRA did not kill six thousand US civilians in a terrorist
> > attack.
> 
> IIRC when the IRA attacks economic infrastructure targets they generally 
> phone in a warning far enough in advance that the area can be evacuated.

Myth.

29 people were killed in an real IRA bombing in Omagh in 1998. This
was a shopping High Street full of people.

The warning given was incorrect and _increased_ the number of deaths
because the terrorists said, probably on purpose, the wrong end of the
street and the people were moved towards the bomb.

-- 
1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk

    "no man or group of men shall aggress upon the person or property of anyone   
else."  -- murray n. rothbard 




From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org  Mon Oct  8 08:26:16 2001
From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 11:26:16 -0400
Subject: Second man tests positive for anthrax; media building closed
References: 
Message-ID: <3BC1C598.7080307@dragonsweb.org>


Xeni Jardin wrote:

> http://www.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/10/08/florida.anthrax.case/index.html
> 
> < second man has tested positive for anthrax bacteria.
> 
> The Associated Press reported that it was unclear when final tests would
> tell whether or not the second man has full-blown anthrax. The bacterium
> normally has an incubation period of up to seven days, but could take up
> to 60 days to develop, the AP reported, citing local health officials.
> 
> State and local health officials closed a building where a 63-year-old
> Florida man who died of anthrax worked, after a sample from the building
> and from another employee showed the presence of the bacterium that
> causes anthrax.
> 
> Authorities closed the American Media Inc. building and the company
> voluntarily evacuated employees who were there working Sunday evening,
> said a spokeswoman for the Palm Beach County Emergency Management
> Office. >>
> 
> 


Publishers of Nat. Equirer, the  Globe, and the Sun, whose building it was.


How effective would supermarket tabloid distribution be for mass 
delivery of infectious quantities?

Whoa. Somebody better work that out.

jbdigriz





From auto301094 at hushmail.com  Mon Oct  8 11:52:24 2001
From: auto301094 at hushmail.com (auto301094 at hushmail.com)
Date: Mon,  8 Oct 2001 11:52:24 -0700
Subject: FWD: Nation weighing value of security vs. privacy; An edgy
  America struggles with technology's role
Message-ID: <200110081852.f98IqPd13110@mailserver1.hushmail.com>

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From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Mon Oct  8 08:55:14 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 11:55:14 -0400
Subject: Second man tests positive for anthrax; media building
  closed
References: 
  <3BC1C598.7080307@dragonsweb.org>
Message-ID: <3BC1CC62.5169F638@acmenet.net>


"James B. DiGriz" wrote:

> How effective would supermarket tabloid distribution be for mass
> delivery of infectious quantities?
> 
> Whoa. Somebody better work that out.

If someone worked out a way to kill off the stupidest third of our
population, should we consider that a hostile act?


Eugenically yours,
SRF

-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From jal at abulafia.com  Mon Oct  8 12:33:22 2001
From: jal at abulafia.com (Jamie Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 12:33:22 -0700
Subject: Another precious moment from shrub...
In-Reply-To: <3BC0FE21.7584.390438@localhost>
References: 
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011008121209.00af9c40@127.0.0.1>



>> Reminiscent of Reagan in his second term.
>
>That would be the term where he made the world safe for
>democracy and capitalism.

That would be the term that he became more and more
comparable to Zippy the Pinhead.

So, in your world, Latin America, all of Africa, most of the
Middle east and just about all of the far east are safe for
democracy and capitalism? Never mind the clampdown
on even internal trade we're seeing in this extremely 
freedom loving country. Or don't you know anyone who
actually distributes, well, just about anything for trade?

>         James A. Donald

Reagan did some things I approve of, but I do wonder how any
sane person can assert he wasn't well on his way to becoming
a vegetable during the second term.* I only hope that baby-Bush
has advisors good enough to keep him, in the prime of his life, from
making the mistakes his former antecedents made in their
decline.

-j

* Many say that Reagan caused the fall of the Berlin Wall,
the opening of Russia, etc. I am not sure I agree that his
policies caused it - I do think they probably shoved a starving
man off a cliff.

I believe that he and Daddy Bush lost a fine geopolitical
coup when they didn't offer "compassionate colonization" to
the emergent Russian nation state. The IMF and WTO are only
political instruments when the U.S. feels threatened, and because
of that it lost the biggest strategic thrust since Germany attacked
the USSR. The current disastrous counterattack is simply moving
more slowly.




From tcmay at got.net  Mon Oct  8 12:33:26 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 12:33:26 -0700
Subject: More on Anthrax cases at publishing company in Florida
Message-ID: <58627396-BC23-11D5-B568-0050E439C473@got.net>


--begin excerpt...my comments are in brackets--

Monday October 8 2:52 PM ET

FBI Probes Anthrax, Terror Link
By AMANDA RIDDLE, Associated Press Writer

BOCA RATON, Fla. (AP) - The FBI (news - web sites) is investigating the 
possibility that anthrax bacteria found in two Florida men is a result 
of terrorism, Attorney General John Ashcroft (news - web sites) said 
Monday.

The bacteria killed one of the men Friday. It has since been detected in 
the nose of a co-worker and on a computer keyboard in the newspaper 
office where both men worked, health officials said.

The co-worker was in stable condition Monday at an unidentified 
Miami-Dade County hospital, according to health officials. He had been 
tested for anthrax because he happened to be in a hospital for an 
unrelated illness.

[Tim Note: CNN says the 73-year-old man had been admitted to the 
ICU/emergency room with "pneumonia-like" symptoms on Friday/Saturday. He 
was released when he improved. Those who know about anthrax know that 
this fits the model of the "anthrax honeymoon," the period of a few days 
after an initial bad period where the patient seems to be get better. 
Then it gets much, much worse. In fact, by the time the patient is in 
the anthrax honeymoon, it's too late. so look for this second patient to 
be dying soon.]

David Pecker, chief executive of the tabloid's publisher, American Media 
Inc., said the man worked in the mailroom.

[Tim Note: The mail room. And spores have been found on a keyboard. 
Anyone still think the first guy got it out in the wild someplace?]
...
Stevens lived about a mile from an air strip where suspected hijacker 
Mohamed Atta rented planes, said Marian Smith, owner of the flight 
school, said Monday. Several suspected hijackers also visited and asked 
questions at a crop-dusting business in Belle Glade, 40 miles from 
Stevens' home in Lantana.
--end excerpt--

A lot of coincidences. Too many.

Be interesting if the anthrax spores were mixed in with outgoing copies 
of The Sun and The National Inquirer! Ignore that fine powder shaking 
out of the paper as people read their copies at the Waffle House...

(Be interesting if it turns out a pressman bagging the newspapers for 
shipment around the country has ties to the other WTC Jihad warriors. 
"The FBI has confirmed that Mustafa bin Azolot, a 22-year-old worker in 
the printing plant, has disappeared from his apartment in Lantana, Fla.")

--Tim May




From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Mon Oct  8 12:46:33 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 12:46:33 -0700
Subject: What color are anthrax spores anyway?
In-Reply-To: <3BC196F7.2090BA9@mozcom.com>; from piolenc@mozcom.com on Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 08:07:19PM +0800
References:  <3BC196F7.2090BA9@mozcom.com>
Message-ID: <20011008124633.I16661@navel.introspect>

on Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 08:07:19PM +0800, F. Marc de Piolenc (piolenc at mozcom.com) wrote:
> > 
> > Hialeah, Florida-AP -- Florida officials say five people have been
> > hospitalized after opening envelopes containing a mysterious white
> > powder. Officials with the Hialeah Fire-Rescue Department in suburban
> > Miami say one person at an apartment was taken to the hospital today after
> > opening a manila envelope. Yesterday, four people at a house 20 blocks
> > away were exposed to an apparently identical powder mailed in a manila
> > envelope. They contacted authorities today and were hospitalized. Three of
> > them are being treated for low-grade fevers.

> Too short an incubation period for Anthrax.

Note that a known issue with BioChem WOMD attacks is sympathetic
incidents -- people who report for observation, with or without
symptoms, who aren't themselves directly effected.  One NPR interview
gave this as being eightfold the actual number of directly effected
victims.  This has substantial implications for preparedness and medical
response requirements.

Peace.

-- 
Karsten M. Self         http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?              Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                    Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA!  http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                      http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html
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From tolan at citipages.net  Mon Oct  8 05:05:03 2001
From: tolan at citipages.net (Tolan Blundell)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 13:05:03 +0100
Subject: Let's Attack The Irish White Christian Terroroists...
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


The bombing in Omagh was attributed to the 'Real IRA' a breakaway group who
I believe are generally considered to be more hard line than IRA.

As far as I understand it they are not the same organisation.

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at ssz.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at ssz.com]On
Behalf Of Steve Mynott
Sent: 08 October 2001 12:12
To: cypherpunks at lne.com
Subject: CDR: Re: Let's Attack The Irish White Christian Terroroists...


FogStorm  writes:

> On Sunday, October 7, 2001, at 04:53  PM, jamesd at echeque.com wrote:
>
> > On 7 Oct 2001, at 12:24, CJ Parker wrote:
> >> Of course we're not attacking a Religion or a Country's
> >> 'people'... So let's prove it by launching Air Strikes
> >> against the Irish Republican Army Terrorists and the Irish
> >> Government entities that give them aid and support.  Lets
> >> launch Air Strikes against the homes and families of the
> >> SeanPennSeanFeind Irish Politicians who support terroroism.
> >
> > The IRA did not kill six thousand US civilians in a terrorist
> > attack.
>
> IIRC when the IRA attacks economic infrastructure targets they generally
> phone in a warning far enough in advance that the area can be evacuated.

Myth.

29 people were killed in an real IRA bombing in Omagh in 1998. This
was a shopping High Street full of people.

The warning given was incorrect and _increased_ the number of deaths
because the terrorists said, probably on purpose, the wrong end of the
street and the people were moved towards the bomb.

--
1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk

    "no man or group of men shall aggress upon the person or property of
anyone
else."  -- murray n. rothbard





From maxinux at bigfoot.com  Mon Oct  8 13:08:28 2001
From: maxinux at bigfoot.com (maxinux)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 13:08:28 -0700
Subject: What color are anthrax spores anyway?
In-Reply-To: <20011008160910.C7668@cluebot.com>; from declan@well.com on
  Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 04:09:10PM -0400
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011007190449.02e0d2f0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com
  
  
  <5.1.0.14.2.20011007231914.046a7970@bivens.parrhesia.com>
  <4.3.2.7.2.20011007202409.02c2ceb0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com>
  <4.3.2.7.2.20011007202409.02c2ceb0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com >
  <20011008160910.C7668@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <20011008130828.A16633@spheno.jokeslayer.com>


Isnt ALL of this what started to appear last friday but was pulled?  I saw it on MSNBC before i drove back home (~1.5 hours) 
then it was gone when i tried telling people here.. Now its back.. amazing what the US Propaghanda machine can do

Max Inux

On Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 04:09:10PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 07, 2001 at 08:46:44PM -1000, Reese wrote:
> > but it isn't like the other news agencies are pushing and shoving to
> > report either one.  Until they do, I'm just a little skeptical.
> 
> Not so. Driving back from Arlington a moment ago, I heard it on NPR 
> (or on the NPR affiliate's pickup of the BBC feed, close enough).
> 
> Also:
> 
> Second Case of Anthrax in Florida
> Oct. 8, 2001 10:25 ET
> abcnews.go.com/sections/living/DailyNews/anthraxcase2011008.html
> 
> Second anthrax case in Florida
> Oct. 8, 2001 10:10 ET
> news.bbc.co.uk/low/english/health/newsid_1586000/1586881.stm
> 
> Local News - The Cincinnati Enquirer
> Oct. 8, 2001 05:04 ET
> enquirer.com/editions/2001/10/08/local.html
> 
> Second Floridian, Workplace Test Positive for Anthrax (Update8)
> Oct. 8, 2001 15:05 ET
> http://quote.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?ptitle=Top%20World%20News&s1=blk&tp=ad_topright_topworld&T=markets_bfgcgi_content99.ht&s2=ad_right1_windex&bt=ad_position1_windex&middle=ad_frame2_windex&s=AO8HuWh
> 
> Etc.
> 
> -Declan

-- 




From this-is-the-shit at home.com  Mon Oct  8 14:13:07 2001
From: this-is-the-shit at home.com (this-is-the-shit)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 13:13:07 -0800
Subject: New forums/massage-board. Please join now!
Message-ID: <20011008201241.BKLV19688.femail6.sdc1.sfba.home.com@[65.12.205.14]>

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From reeza at hawaii.rr.com  Mon Oct  8 16:18:33 2001
From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 13:18:33 -1000
Subject: More on Anthrax cases at publishing company in Florida
In-Reply-To: <58627396-BC23-11D5-B568-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011008131605.02c52c10@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com>


At 12:33 PM 10/8/01 -0700, Tim May wrote:
 >--begin excerpt...my comments are in brackets--



Is it too much to ask, that you include a url when you post news
articles you comment on?  I guess that would show you up when you
spoof news articles, wouldn't it?  Isn't this situation of such a
nature that those rules can be set aside, if only temporarily?

I know you are fond of saying America needs formatting, but come
on already - it's one thing if we do it ourselves, quite another
if it is done to us.

Reese




From reeza at hawaii.rr.com  Mon Oct  8 16:19:47 2001
From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 13:19:47 -1000
Subject: What color are anthrax spores anyway?
In-Reply-To: <20011008124633.I16661@navel.introspect>
References: <3BC196F7.2090BA9@mozcom.com>
 
 <3BC196F7.2090BA9@mozcom.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011008131844.02c50220@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com>


At 12:46 PM 10/8/01 -0700, Karsten M. Self wrote:
 >Run Plugin:"[path]\Re What color are anthrax spor.ems <0880.0002>"

Attachment could not be opened.  Don't use MIME.  MIME(s) suck,
just ask anyone.

Reese




From tcmay at got.net  Mon Oct  8 13:36:50 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 13:36:50 -0700
Subject: What color are anthrax spores anyway?
In-Reply-To: <20011008130828.A16633@spheno.jokeslayer.com>
Message-ID: <334D1195-BC2C-11D5-B568-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Monday, October 8, 2001, at 01:08 PM, maxinux wrote:

> Isnt ALL of this what started to appear last friday but was pulled?  I 
> saw it on MSNBC before i drove back home (~1.5 hours)
> then it was gone when i tried telling people here.. Now its back.. 
> amazing what the US Propaghanda machine can do

I found the Bloomberg reference to the MSNBC report and posted it here 
Friday night.

I don't know what you mean about saying "i tried telling people here..."

A few people reported problems pasting the URL in, but others found it 
to work.

The events of today just confirmed what came out on Friday: the second 
case, and the fact that the cases are within a few miles of where the 
Jihad warriors trained, is mighty suspicious. The cover story, that 
Edwards must have gotten it during a trip to North Carolina, is now "no 
longer operative."

--Tim May
"Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and
strangled with her panty hose,  is somehow morally superior to a woman 
explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound"




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Mon Oct  8 13:38:51 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 13:38:51 -0700
Subject: Limbaugh: 'I'm Going Deaf'
Message-ID: <3BC20EDB.B03E20F8@lsil.com>


Does this mean the goofball is going to get even louder?




From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Mon Oct  8 15:03:00 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 15:03:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Limbaugh: 'I'm Going Deaf'
In-Reply-To: <3BC20EDB.B03E20F8@lsil.com> from "mmotyka@lsil.com" at Oct 08, 2001 01:38:51 PM
Message-ID: <200110082203.f98M31x15393@artifact.psychedelic.net>



> Does this mean the goofball is going to get even louder?

If only his mouth had stopped working, instead of his ears.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From reeza at hawaii.rr.com  Mon Oct  8 18:47:37 2001
From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 15:47:37 -1000
Subject: More on Anthrax cases at publishing company in Florida
In-Reply-To: <0DE46A18-BC44-11D5-B568-0050E439C473@got.net>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011008131605.02c52c10@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com
  >
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011008154651.02c44660@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com>


At 04:27 PM 10/8/01 -0700, Tim May wrote:
 >On Monday, October 8, 2001, at 04:18 PM, Reese wrote:
 >
 >> At 12:33 PM 10/8/01 -0700, Tim May wrote:
 >> >--begin excerpt...my comments are in brackets--
 >>
 >> 
 >>
 >> Is it too much to ask, that you include a url when you post news
 >> articles you comment on? I know you are fond of saying America needs
 >> formatting, but come
 >> on already - it's one thing if we do it ourselves, quite another
 >> if it is done to us.
 >
 >
 >The item I quoted was widely available on every news service, not the
 >least of which was  Yahoo headlines. I included the title of the piece,
 >the author, and the source, any of which were sufficient for your
 >favorite search engine to turn up.

But you couldn't spare the second it would've taken to include the url.
I see how you are.

Reese




From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Oct  8 13:50:26 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 15:50:26 -0500
Subject: Linux Today - USENIX: Proposed Legislation Significantly Affecting Computer Profession
Message-ID: <3BC21192.4CFB2772@ssz.com>


http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2001-10-08-004-20-NW-BR
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From freematt at coil.com  Mon Oct  8 13:03:10 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 16:03:10 -0400
Subject: Anthrax!
Message-ID: 


When asked about the current Anthrax scare, President Bush replied, 
"I don't  know what the big deal is all about.  I think it's 
perfectly safe to travel  by train."

Note from Matthew Gaylor:  I've heard that Israeli gas masks are now 
going for upwards of $150 with extra filters going for $30. Although 
they can be had cheaply enough on E-Bay.  That's a far cry from the 
case (12) I purchased years ago for something on the order of $5 per 
mask which included West German filters.  For those of you who aren't 
well prepared or aren't well heeled let me suggest The Junk Science, 
Do-It-Yourself -- Gas Mask below:

Source:
Sierra Times
http://www.sierratimes.com/

The Junk Science, Do-It-Yourself -- Gas Mask
http://www.sierratimes.com/archive/files/oct/03/arwh100301.htm

NOTE: Click on the above URL to view the many pictures in the article.

Wayne Hicks 10.03.01

(Note to my readers: I'll be following this with a Chem-Bio 
Protection system for small children, and a Do-it-yourself chem-bio 
shelter...  only here at Sierra Times!--WH)

Wayne has compiled a new e-book: Junk Science Survival that contains 
many instructions and much more information on how to apply some of 
these ideas to your own practical use!  Click below for more 
information.
http://www.sierratimes.com/junksciad.htm

With the current state of affairs, and the repeated warnings by 
high-level Government Officials of possible, and even probable, 
Bio-Chemical Attacks on America, it seems to be time to apply the 
'Real American Junk Science" philosophy to personal protection, and, 
based on the constant references in the news media to the demand for 
gas masks that can no longer be purchased, that item won first place 
in the list.

Photo
http://www.sierratimes.com/images/mask/model1.jpg

The strange looking girl in the photo above is my Daughter, DaniJo, 
and she is wearing a dual-filtered homemade gas mask that will, 
hopefully, afford her some protection in the event our small town 
becomes the target of a bio-chem attack.  The two-stage filter is 
made of plastic bottles containing various filter materials, 
connected together by medical-grade clear neoprene tubing, and mated 
to a standard oxygen nose-mouth face mask.  The eyepiece started out 
as an off-the-shelf eye-protector, and the housing is nothing more 
than a section of automotive inner-tube into which all of the 
relevant pieces have been secured with staples and rubber cement.

Air is drawn into the filter bottles through a length of 3/8 inch 
copper tubing which extends through the bottle's cap and all the way 
to the bottom.  The end is crimped so that air comes out of it in 
small streams.
The bottle contains rubbing alcohol, and air drawn through it rises 
through the alcohol in tiny bubbles, hopefully killing any germs 
along the way.  Also attached to the cap of the bottle, right beside 
the copper tubing, is one end of a length of our medical-grade 
tubing, and the air, which has bubbled up above the level of the 
alcohol, is now drawn through it to the second stage filter.

In this smaller filter bottle, the incoming tube also rests on the 
bottom, but it is covered with a large wadding of HEPA filter 
material removed from a HEPA vacuum cleaner bag.  It is then covered 
with four ounces of powdered activated charcoal, which is in turn 
sealed into place with a stuffing of more HEPA material.  The piece 
of tubing seen protruding from the side of the mouthpiece and 
wrapping around the mask is connected to the air exhaust valve, a 
small automotive one-way valve (called a PCV valve) that allows the 
air you exhale to vent from the filter system without building up 
positive pressure in the bottle.  When you inhale, the small amount 
of vacuum you apply to the filters and lines causes the valve to 
close, preventing any outside air from returning to the mask.  Since 
the exhaust-valve tubing is six inches long, any air in the tubing 
that might get sucked in before the ball can close is only air that 
you have already filtered and breathed out, and therefore presents no 
danger.  A second PCV valve is placed in the line from the filters to 
the mask, but reversed, so that it opens when you breathe in and 
closes when you breathe out.

Activated Charcoal absorbs many times its own weight in contaminants 
that pass through it, and while air flows freely through the charcoal 
powder and the HEPA material; particles as small as 0.3 microns do 
not.

Powdered Activated Charcoal is well known as the world's most 
effective absorbent.  Activated Charcoal is like a magnetic sponge, 
that will adsorb any living or nonliving substance that has the 
opposite electrical charge.  It is made by cremating hardwood logs or 
coconut shells.  The resulting Charcoal is then steamed, producing 
microscopic tunnels.  Lastly, it is processed to produce sizes from 
blocks down to powder.  Different sizes of the resulting Activated 
Charcoal are used for different purposes.  When any gases or liquids 
pass by &/or through the Activated Charcoal, the substances as 
mentioned before will be attracted to it's surface.  Activated 
Charcoal can adsorb over 4,000 chemicals including drugs, poisons, 
toxins, and heavy metals, plus pathogens!  It is used in Air and 
Water filters all around the world.

HEPA filtration technology was developed by the U.S.  Atomic Energy 
Commission to remove airborne radioactive particles.  In order to be 
considered true HEPA filter it must be capable of removing 99.97% of 
particles as small as 0.3 microns.  Today HEPA filter is used in such 
places as hospitals and manufactures' clean rooms where clean air is 
absolutely vital.  ALL known bacteria will die when trapped in the 
HEPA filters, for after passing through the alcohol and Activated 
Charcoal elements, there is no moisture available to facilitate their 
growth, and they lose their own internal moisture rapidly.

This mask, as ridiculous as it looks, should be functional in 
protecting you against most bio-chemical attacks we may face, and 
here's why:

BIO ATTACKS: Because biological toxins are not volatile, as are 
chemical agents, and with rare exceptions, do not directly affect the 
skin, an aggressor would have to present toxins to target populations 
in the form of respirable aerosols, which allow contact with the more 
vulnerable inner surfaces of the lung.  This, fortunately, makes even 
our homemade gas mask potentially effective against such a threat, 
since it will absorb/trap particles as small as 0.3 microns.  Almost 
all biological attack threats are made up of aerosol particles 
between 0.5 and 5 microns in diameter.

CHEMICAL ATTACKS: During an attack with Chemical agents, the 
respiratory system must be protected against aerosols and gases in 
the air (at the same time, it's a good idea to protect the rest of 
the body against direct contact with chemical agents in the form of 
liquid or solid particles).
In addition, the respiratory system must be protected against evaporating gas.

The filter in a protective mask consists of two parts; an aerosol 
filter and a gas filter.  The aerosol filter is built up of a layer 
of fibers (HEPA).  The particles are removed when they collide with 
the fibers, to which they adhere.  If it is a volatile substance that 
adheres, it may subsequently evaporate from the aerosol filter. 
Consequently, it is important to design a filter whereby the gas 
filter component is located after the aerosol filter.

The gas filter component of the protective filter consists of 
Activated Charcoal, which absorbs over 400 varieties of chemical 
gases, including almost all known chem-warfare agents, and especially 
those which are most feasible to produce for use in large scale 
attacks.

What all this tech-speak means is that this inexpensive alternative 
mask has a reasonable chance of keeping you alive for a period of 
time while you make your way to a shelter to await the "all-clear" 
and when I say "inexpensive", I mean it the whole thing was built 
for less than $30.00 in off-the-shelf parts and gathered junk, and 
only took about four hours of work!

The parts list runs as follows:
1 15 inch automotive inner-tube, scrounged free from a local tire store
1 pair of eye-protectors, $1.88 at Wal-Mart
1 Oxygen mask w/tubing, $3.00 from a local Medical Supplies store
1 tube "Shoe Goo" rubber cement, $2.97, Wal-Mart
1 4 oz.  Bottle of Activated Charcoal powder, $11.00, local drug store
2 small PCV valves, $2.49 each, Wal-Mart
1 package Hoover True HEPA vacuum cleaner Bags, $3.97, Wal-Mart
1 14-inch length 3/8 inch copper tubing, from an old air conditioner
1 bottle rubbing alcohol, $.88, Wal-Mart
1 2-liter pop bottle, from my trash can
1 20 oz Gatorade bottle, ditto Take a look:

Parts photo
http://www.sierratimes.com/images/mask/parts.jpg

All I did was cut out a fourteen-inch section of the inner-tube, and 
make cutouts for the eye-protectors and the nose/mouth mask, then 
push them through the holes and staple them in place.

The seams I coated with a liberal application of Shoe Goo, to ensure 
that they won't leak or come apart if you've ever used that stuff, 
you'll know what I mean!  And, by the way eye protectors have many 
little air holes around their housings be sure to plug them all with 
a layer of Shoe Goo!

Next, I removed the HEPA material from the vacuum cleaner bags in 
preparation for assembling and attaching the filters.  This is easy 
Just cut the top off the bag, and gently pull the HEPA liner out of 
the bag.  Be careful not to poke holes in it.

Assembling the filter bottles is the most difficult part, and even 
that isn't hard.  Drill two  3/8 inch holes in the cap, like so:

Make sure the copper tubing is clean, and push it through one of the 
holes in the cap so that it extends all the way to the bottom.  It's 
best if you can bend the end so that the opening cannot push against 
he bottom of the bottle, then use pliers to crimp the end slightly 
this will cause the air that comes through it to break up into small 
bubbles in the alcohol.  Next, cut the oxy-bottle-connector from the 
clear neoprene hose that came with your oxygen mask, and push the new 
end through the other hole in the cap, but only a short distance, say 
about an inch or two.  This end must always remain above the level of 
the alcohol in the bottle, and the bottle must always remain upright. 
Seal the tubes into the cap with lots of Shoe Goo!

The smaller bottle is for the dry part of the filter.  Again, drill 
two holes in the cap for this bottle, and then cut the neoprene line 
about twenty inches from where it enters the cap of the larger 
bottle, and push this end through one of the holes you just drilled. 
It should extend all the way to the bottom of the smaller bottle with 
a couple of inches to spare, so that you can lay it on the bottom of 
the bottle with cap still off.  Now, take about a ten-inch square of 
the HEPA material and fold it into fourths, then wrap this around the 
end of the tube you just put in the cap.  Secure it with a big glob 
of Shoe Goo and let it dry thoroughly.  Once it's dry, let it hang to 
the bottom of the bottle and pour in the Activated Charcoal.

Now take the rest of your HEPA material and pack it into the bottle. 
It doesn't matter if it gets pretty crumpled you want as much 
surface area exposed to the air coming through it as you can get! 
Once it's packed in, put the cap on and put a bead of Shoe Goo around 
the seam of the cap.
Take the end of the neoprene hose that is now left hanging from your 
mask, cut off a six-inch length and lay it aside, then push the 
remaining end through the last hole in the cap, only about an inch, 
and secure both hoses in place in their holes with more Goo!

Now, all that's left is to add the check valves, and hook it all up! 
This is a little tricky, so I'll go into heavy detail:

On each side of your oxygen mask, there are some holes arranged in 
about a quarter-inch circle drill or punch through one or two of 
them on one side, until you have a 3/8 inch hole, then use Shoe Goo 
to close up all of the others, on both sides.  Take the six-inch 
length of tubing you laid aside a few moments ago, and push it into 
the hole in the mask, then secure it with Shoe Goo, and use more Goo 
to glue it alongside the mask so that it curves upward around towards 
the ear.  Now, grab on of the PCV valves and look at the arrow on the 
side of it to see which way it allows air to flow.  You want to 
attach it to the hose so that it allows air to come I from the hose, 
but not go back in in other words, the arrow should point AWAY from 
the hose!  Seal the connection with Shoe Goo!

The final step is to connect the main filter line to the mask, and 
make sure that any holes in the connector (some have them) are sealed 
with Goo, and then cut the line about four inches below the mask, and 
get your other PCV valve.  This time, you want the arrow to point 
TOWARDS THE MASK this will allow air to come in from the filters, 
but will not let your exhales go back into the filter bottles. 
Instead, this will force your exhaled breath to exit the mask through 
the exhaust valve that we put alongside the mask itself.  Put the 
valve in place, then seal both ends of it to the hoses with Goo to 
make sure you don't have a leak.

Putting the mask on is a little tricky, and you need to practice 
until you can get it on and tightly in place in about four or five 
seconds.  Just pull the mask over your head, like a ski mask, but 
pull gently on the front of it and firmly on the back until it sits 
snugly in place and lines up on your eyes and mouth.  Adjust it for 
as much comfort as you can manage remember, it's part of an inner 
tube and may be a little tight.  This can be relieved partly by 
cutting away part of the back of the mask, making a hole that the 
back of your head can protrude into.  If it's still too tight, I'd 
suggest getting a bigger inner tube and start again I would never 
cut the back open and try to make straps work on it.

Well, that's about it You now have a gas mask that costs little, and 
while it may not be pretty, it will give you a lot better chance of 
staying alive than you'll have without one.

I'm making these for my whole family, and am working on a more 
portable design.  If you have any questions, feel free to email me 
directly at redneck at sierratimes.com.

**************************************************************************
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Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
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From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Oct  8 14:04:52 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 16:04:52 -0500
Subject: How Can Water Distribution Systems Be Kept Secure?
Message-ID: <3BC214F4.18CDB8D0@ssz.com>


Crypto this...

http://unisci.com/stories/20014/1008012.htm

-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From declan at well.com  Mon Oct  8 13:05:27 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 16:05:27 -0400
Subject: Internet Hoax Articles Considered Harmful
In-Reply-To: ; from
  tcmay@got.net on Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 09:17:07AM -0700
References: <20011008084414.B14907@cluebot.com>
  
Message-ID: <20011008160527.B7668@cluebot.com>


Right. That's why I said "major cities." Everyone knows where Philadelphia
is; I have no idea where "Knob Noster" would be without a bit of a hint.

-Declan


On Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 09:17:07AM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> On Monday, October 8, 2001, at 05:44 AM, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> > On Sun, Oct 07, 2001 at 11:54:50PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> >> PHILADELPHIA, Pennyslvania (AP) - Homeland Defense Secretary Tom Ridge
> >> said Sunday that the U.S. faces a serious and expanding threat from
> >> fraudulent Internet articles, or hoaxes.
> >
> > Almost. The most obvious sign that this is a hoax is your inclusion
> > of the state in the dateline. For major cities, it's usually not 
> > included.
> >
> > -Declan
> >
> 
> Oh? Except for the most common cities (Washington, New York, Los 
> Angeles, etc.), my sampling shows they usually give the state. Sometimes 
> abbreviated to 2-4 letters, sometimes spelled out completely. Here are 
> some AP items I pullled:
> 
> (By the way, the last item is NOT a hoax by me, and confirms what I 
> posted from the Bloomberg site a few days ago.)
> 
> --Tim May
> 
> 
> FAIRBANKS, Alaska (AP) - Crews on Saturday installed a clamp over a 
> bullet hole in the trans-Alaska pipeline, finally stopping a leak that 
> spewed 285,600 gallons of oil onto the wilderness over three days.
> 
> KNOB NOSTER, Mo. (AP) - They heard the rumbles and their houses shook. 
> As they sat in their homes next to Whiteman Air Force Base, residents 
> knew the retaliations had begun.
> 
> BOCA RATON, Fla. (AP) - A co-worker of the man who died last week from 
> anthrax also has tested positive for the disease and the building where 
> both worked was closed after the bacterium was detected there.




From declan at well.com  Mon Oct  8 13:09:10 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 16:09:10 -0400
Subject: What color are anthrax spores anyway?
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011007202409.02c2ceb0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com
  >; from reeza@hawaii.rr.com on Sun, Oct 07, 2001 at 08:46:44PM -1000
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011007190449.02e0d2f0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com
  
  
  <5.1.0.14.2.20011007231914.046a7970@bivens.parrhesia.com>
  <4.3.2.7.2.20011007202409.02c2ceb0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20011008160910.C7668@cluebot.com>


On Sun, Oct 07, 2001 at 08:46:44PM -1000, Reese wrote:
> but it isn't like the other news agencies are pushing and shoving to
> report either one.  Until they do, I'm just a little skeptical.

Not so. Driving back from Arlington a moment ago, I heard it on NPR 
(or on the NPR affiliate's pickup of the BBC feed, close enough).

Also:

Second Case of Anthrax in Florida
Oct. 8, 2001 10:25 ET
abcnews.go.com/sections/living/DailyNews/anthraxcase2011008.html

Second anthrax case in Florida
Oct. 8, 2001 10:10 ET
news.bbc.co.uk/low/english/health/newsid_1586000/1586881.stm

Local News - The Cincinnati Enquirer
Oct. 8, 2001 05:04 ET
enquirer.com/editions/2001/10/08/local.html

Second Floridian, Workplace Test Positive for Anthrax (Update8)
Oct. 8, 2001 15:05 ET
http://quote.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?ptitle=Top%20World%20News&s1=blk&tp=ad_topright_topworld&T=markets_bfgcgi_content99.ht&s2=ad_right1_windex&bt=ad_position1_windex&middle=ad_frame2_windex&s=AO8HuWh

Etc.

-Declan




From schear at lvcm.com  Mon Oct  8 16:10:34 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 16:10:34 -0700
Subject: fwd: New fashion trend
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011008160930.03ad53d0@pop3.lvcm.com>



[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of Please don't hurt me.jpg"; x-mac-type="4A504547"; x-mac-creator="4A565752]




From elyn at consect.com  Mon Oct  8 13:13:21 2001
From: elyn at consect.com (Elyn Wollensky)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 16:13:21 -0400
Subject: Mitnick Warns Other 'Scapegoats' ...
Message-ID: <018901c15035$ae679fc0$6b8d1d18@nyc.rr.com>


Has anyone seen this -
elyn


http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,47354,00.html

Mitnick Warns Other 'Scapegoats'
Wired/ 10.8.01

The world's most notorious hacker says the government should focus on
securing its computer systems rather than snooping on citizens.

Kevin Mitnick, who spent four-and-a-half years behind bars for breaking into
the computer systems of telephone companies, stresses that hackers should
take extreme care these days given the sensitive political environment and
the new laws defining many hacks as acts of terrorism.

He also warned that any hacker could win the "scapegoat sweepstakes" at any
time, receiving a harsh sentence to serve as an example to other hackers.

Mitnick, who has testified before a Senate committee on the dangers of
politically motivated hack attacks, thinks cyber terrorism is a credible --
but not particularly critical -- threat that could be headed off by
strengthening security at government agencies and private corporations.

He firmly believes the newly proposed Patriot Act is just an excuse for law
enforcement to further its own agenda.

The act, approved on Wednesday by the House Judiciary Committee and slated
for a full vote this week, gives wide-ranging surveillance powers to the
police, including extensive scrutiny of electronic communications.

"The Patriot Act is ludicrous," Mitnick said. "Terrorists have proved that
they are interested in total genocide, not subtle little hacks of the U.S
infrastructure, yet the government wants a blank search warrant to spy and
snoop on everyone's communications."

If anyone has a right to what some might see as paranoia, Mitnick would be
that man. He's been portrayed in newspapers, books and movies as the
all-powerful evil programmer, a brilliant hacker able to launch a nuclear
war with a mere whistle into a cell phone, able to bring down government
computer systems on a whim.

For the record, Mitnick denies many of the crimes that have been credited to
him and said the government and the mainstream media created the myth of
Mitnick for their own profit.

"I am not innocent but I certainly didn't do most of what I was accused of,"
he said. "Basically, I won the scapegoat sweepstakes."

Mitnick agreed to be interviewed as part of the publicity for his role in an
episode of a new ABC spy drama, Alias, in which Mitnick plays a CIA computer
expert. Mitnick's episode, "Doppelganger," is scheduled to air Sunday, Oct.
28.

Arrested in February 1995 for hacking into the computer networks of
communications providers such as Digital Equipment, Pacific Bell, Bell
Atlantic and Internet service provider The Well, Mitnick was held without
bail for four and a half years.

He served eight months of that time in solitary confinement as authorities
apparently feared he could still manage to hack into some device and cause
the end of the world. He pleaded guilty to entering computer systems without
authorization, served another eight months, and was released in January
2000.

Mitnick is banned, until January 2003, from using computers, acting as a
technical consultant, or writing about computers without permission from his
probation officer. Mitnick recently was given permission to carry a cell
phone so that he could be in touch with family during his father's terminal
illness.

Mitnick was allowed to keep the phone after his father died five months ago
but believes it's so authorities can keep track of him.

Mitnick testified before the Senate Governmental Affairs Committee in
Washington on March 2 and outlined a comprehensive plan that would secure
computer systems against most hack attacks.

He believes that the government should be hardening their systems now,
although he's not totally convinced that cyber terrorism is the worst
threat.

"Yes, a coordinated team of hackers could take down the communications
systems, the power system, perhaps the financial markets," he said. "But all
of those systems would be back online pretty quickly; you can't really knock
them out for an extended period. You could use those outages as a decoy
though, to draw attention from what you are really planning."

But he believes that increased surveillance powers aren't going to help win
the war against terrorism and he thinks the government knows it.

"The government does things like insisting that all encryption programs
should have a back door. But surely no one is stupid enough to think the
terrorists are going to use encryption systems with a backdoor. The
terrorists will simply hire a programmer to come up with a secure encryption
scheme."

Mitnick defines a hacker as someone who has a passion for technology,
someone who is possessed by a desire to figure out how things work.
Sometimes, he said, that passion may lead a hacker into the shadowy places
where the law and hacker ethics conflict.

"A hacker doesn't deliberately destroy data or profit from his activities,"
he said. "I never made any money directly from hacking. I wasn't malicious.
A lot of the unethical things I did was to cover my own ass when I was a
fugitive."

Mitnick does not justify all of his hacks. He admits he broke into computer
systems to peek at code that powers cellular phone systems. He didn't
destroy data or sell it. But he copied proprietary software.

He did have long lists of customer records from major corporations --
including customer credit card numbers -- but said he used the information
to "social engineer" his way into systems.

Social engineers hack people instead of computers, coercing information out
of people by pretending they have a right to that information. Mitnick said
he used those corporate billing records to assume customers' identities.

"The companies would ask address, credit card information, things like that
to confirm that you were who you said you were. That's why I needed the
customer databases. Everyone always wondered why I had all those credit
cards and never used them or sold the numbers," he said.

Mitnick believes Dmitry Sklyarov, the Russian software programmer currently
awaiting trial in the U.S. on charges he violated the Digital Millennium
Copyright Act, may have also won the so-called sweepstakes. He warns young
hackers to pull back and be very careful now.

"I hope Dmitry puts up a good fight," Mitnick said. "He's got a great
lawyer. I had a public defender. He's innocent, I wasn't. All the right
people are supporting him. I pissed a lot of the right people off by hacking
into The Well."

The Well is an online service that, in its heyday, was the online community
of choice for anybody who considered themselves a technophile. Mitnick used
The Well's servers as a sort of storage locker for data he'd pilfered from
other places, which angered many users who assumed he'd crawled all over the
system and violated their privacy.

"I was on the run, and didn't have any place to store this data I was
collecting. So I hid it all over the Net like it was Easter eggs."

Mitnick does admit to reading the e-mail of New York Times reporter John
Markoff, who reported on Mitnick for The Times, and then co-authored Tsutomu
Shimomura's book, Takedown: The Pursuit and Capture of America's Most Wanted
Computer Outlaw -- By The Man Who Did It.

"I read their e-mail because they were discussing how the FBI was going to
catch me. I didn't read it all, just searched for a combination of letters
that's in my name, and words like "trap," "trace" things like that. Again,
this is something I had to do to cover my ass, total self-preservation."

Mitnick hosts a radio show, and is currently working on a book on social
engineering and how people can protect themselves against it. The book will
be published next year.

Many in the hacking community believe Mitnick is an outstanding social
engineer but just a so-so hacker with limited programming skills.

"I'd say I'm equally skilled in both areas," Mitnick said, "but no, my
programming skills aren't stellar. Yes, I'd rather hack people's brains than
code. If I needed to know about a security exploit, I preferred to get the
information by accessing the companies' security teams' files, rather than
poring over lines of code to find it on my own. It's just more efficient."

Mitnick gave an interesting example of the power of social engineering.
Enlisting a co-worker to demonstrate, he proved that it is easy to spoof
caller ID information by placing calls to Wired News that appeared to come
from other destinations such as the White House.

The information that appeared on the incoming caller ID information
identified the calls as coming from the spoofed addresses, instead of the
phone number that was used to place the call.

"Imagine what a malicious hacker could do with this trick, which, by the
way, is a perfectly legal feature of the phone system," Mitnick said.
"Imagine if your caller ID identified a call as coming from your credit card
company, or your bank."

Mitnick said the best way to avoid social engineering scams is to trust
nothing.

And yes, he is bitter over the way his life has been "twisted and torn out
from underneath me." But knowing he'll be free to use computers again in
2003 keeps him going.

He cautions young hackers not to take any chances now.

"Set up a network with your friends and try to hack into it. I know it's not
the big challenge you're looking for. You don't get the thrill of entering
into forbidden territory, but now is not the time to be hacking. Trust me,
you do not want to be the next big winner of the scapegoat sweepstakes."





From mmotyka at lsil.com  Mon Oct  8 16:19:03 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 16:19:03 -0700
Subject: Second man tests positive for anthrax; media building
  closed
Message-ID: <3BC23467.91EA6FE7@lsil.com>


>The most likely possibilities appear to be numbers two and three,
>that this was either a test run or a botched attempt at infecting the
>population.  The experts have been claiming for weeks that handling
>these bioagents isn't as trivial as fearmongers would suggest.  It seems
>probable that such factors are at work here.
>
It is reasonable to guess that if two people have shown signs of
contamination, those two people are the ones who handled the stuff. A
receives the package/envelope, handles it while sorting, picks nose. B
opens package gets heavy dose on hands and hence keyboard, enough is
around for him to inhale it. Terrorists overestimated ease of
distribution and had some misconceptions about risk of contagiousness -
they may have thought mailing it to one guy would infect the whole
workplace. Lack of positive tests on other locations/mail : xlow
concentrations, things thrown in trash over past week.




From tcmay at got.net  Mon Oct  8 16:24:01 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 16:24:01 -0700
Subject: New fashion trend
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011008160930.03ad53d0@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: <8E327042-BC43-11D5-B568-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Monday, October 8, 2001, at 04:10 PM, Steve Schear wrote:

>
> [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name 
> of Please don't hurt me.jpg"; x-mac-type="4A504547"; x-mac-
> creator="4A565752]
>
>

Please don't send JPEGs or MPEGs or anything of the sort to our mailing 
list.

--Tim May, Occupied America
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety 
deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759.




From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Mon Oct  8 16:25:35 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 16:25:35 -0700
Subject: fwd: New fashion trend
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011008160930.03ad53d0@pop3.lvcm.com>; from
  schear@lvcm.com on Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 04:10:34PM -0700
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011008160930.03ad53d0@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: <20011008162534.N7249@navel.introspect>

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From tcmay at got.net  Mon Oct  8 16:27:35 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 16:27:35 -0700
Subject: More on Anthrax cases at publishing company in Florida
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011008131605.02c52c10@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com
  >
Message-ID: <0DE46A18-BC44-11D5-B568-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Monday, October 8, 2001, at 04:18 PM, Reese wrote:

> At 12:33 PM 10/8/01 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> >--begin excerpt...my comments are in brackets--
>
> 
>
> Is it too much to ask, that you include a url when you post news
> articles you comment on? I know you are fond of saying America needs 
> formatting, but come
> on already - it's one thing if we do it ourselves, quite another
> if it is done to us.


The item I quoted was widely available on every news service, not the 
least of which was  Yahoo headlines. I included the title of the piece, 
the author, and the source, any of which were sufficient for your 
favorite search engine to turn up.



--Tim May, Citizen-unit of of the once free United States
" The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood 
of patriots & tyrants. "--Thomas Jefferson, 1787




From freematt at coil.com  Mon Oct  8 13:29:26 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 16:29:26 -0400
Subject: And Now Afghanistan by Murray N. Rothbard Circa 1980
Message-ID: 





And Now Afghanistan

by Murray N. Rothbard

This article was originally published in the January-February 1980 
issue of The Libertarian Forum.

These are grim times for those of us who yearn for a peaceful 
American foreign policy, for a foreign policy emulating the ideals of 
Thomas Paine, who exhorted America not to interfere with the affairs 
of other nations, and to serve instead as a beacon-light of liberty 
by her example. The lessons of the Vietnam intervention have been 
shuffled off with obscene haste, by masses and by intellectuals 
alike, by campus kids and by veterans of the antiwar movement of the 
1960's. It started with Iran, with bloody calls for war, for 
punishment, for "nuking 'em till they glow."

But just as we have been whipping ourselves up to nuking Muslims and 
to declaring war against "fanatical" Islam per se, we are ready to 
turn on a dime and sing the praises of no-longer fanatical Muslims 
who are willing to fight Russian tanks with their bare hands: the 
heroic freedom fighters of Afghanistan. All of a sudden President 
Carter has gone bananas: declaring himself shocked and stunned by the 
Soviet incursion into Afghanistan, mobilizing the United Nations in 
stunned horror, levying embargoes (my how this peanut salesman loves 
embargoes!), and threatening the Olympics so dear to sports fans 
around the globe.

It's all very scary. There is the phony proclamation of personal 
betrayal – Brezhnev not coming clean on the Hot Line – all too 
reminiscent of the late unlamented King of Camelot before he almost 
got us into a nuclear holocaust over Cuba. There is the same macho 
insistence on regarding every foreign affairs crisis as a duel with 
six-shooters at high noon, and trying to prove that good ole Uncle 
Sam still has the fastest draw.

To set the record straight from the first: Yes, it is deplorable that 
Russia saw it fit to move troops into Afghanistan. It will, we can 
readily predict, be a disaster for the Soviets themselves, for tens 
of thousands of troops will be tied down, Vietnam-fashion, in a 
country where they are universally hated and reviled, and where they 
will be able to command only the cities and the main roads, and those 
in the daytime. But deplorable as the Soviet action is, it is neither 
surprising nor shocking: it is in line with Soviet, indeed with all 
Russian actions since the late 19th century – an insistence on 
dominating countries on its borders. While unfortunate, this follows 
the line of Czarist imperialism: it is old-fashioned Great Power 
politics, and presages neither the "fall" of Southwest Asia nor an 
immediate armed strike upon our shores.

Indeed, the righteous horror of the U.S. and the U.N. at Soviet 
actions in Afghanistan takes on an ironic perspective when we 
consider the massive use of military force wielded not very long age 
by the United States against Cuba, Vietnam, Cambodia, and the 
Dominican Republic. Indeed, the ground for Soviet invasion: the 
backing of one side in another country's civil war, was precisely the 
groundwork or the massive and disastrous U.S. military intervention 
in Vietnam. In Vietnam, too, we intervened on the side of unpopular 
repressive regime in a civil war against a popular revolution: and 
now the Soviets are doing the exact same thing. So why the selective 
moral indignation wielded by: Carter, the U.N., the war hawk 
conservatives, the Social Democrats, the liberals, the media, etc.? 
Hypocrisy has become rife in America.

There are two crucial difference between America's and Russia's 
"Vietnam" in Afghanistan. One, that Russia will be slaughtering far 
fewer Afghans than we did Vietnamese. And two, that Afghanistan is, 
after all, on Russia's borders while we launched our intervention in 
Vietnam half the globe away from our shores. And Afghanistan, of 
course is even further away than Vietnam. The whole thing is 
ludicrous and absurd. Is Afghanistan now supposed to have been part 
of the "Free World"? Afghanistan has no resources, has no treaties 
with the U.S., no historic ties, there are none of the flimsy but 
popular excuses that we have used for over a century to throw our 
weight around across the earth. But we go, intervening anyway, loudly 
proclaiming that Russia's actions in Afghanistan are "unacceptable," 
and for which we are ready to scrap SALT, detente, and the feeble 
past attempts of the Carter administration to shuck off the Cold War 
and to establish come sort of modus vivendi with Russia. The 
conservatives, the Pentagon, the Social Democrats, the 
neo-conservatives, the Coalition for a Democratic Majority – all the 
worst scoundrels in American life - have been yearning to smash 
detente, and to accelerate an already swollen arms budget and heat up 
the Cold War. And now Carter has done it – to such an extent that 
such conservative organs as Human Events are even finding Carter 
foreign policy to be better in some respects than that of its hero 
Reagan.

The idiocy of the sudden wailing and hand-wringing over Afghanistan 
may be gauged by the fact that that land-locked and barren land had 
been a Russian client state since the late nineteenth century, when 
clashes of British and Russian (Czarist) imperialism came to draw the 
Afghan-Indian border where it is today. (An unfortunate situation, 
since northwest and western Pakistan is ethnically Pushtu – the 
majority ethnic Baluchi: the same group that populates southern 
Afghanistan and southeastern Iran.) Ever since, the King of 
Afghanistan has always been a Russian tool, first Czarist then Soviet 
– to the tune of no bleats of outrage from the United States.

Then, in 1973, the King was overthrown by a coup led by Prince 
Mohammed Daud. After a few years, Daud began to lead the Afghan 
government into the Western, pro-U.S. camp. More specifically, he 
came under the financial spell (i.e. the payroll) of the Shah of 
Iran, the very man much in the news of late. Feeling that they could 
not tolerate a pro- U.S. anti-Soviet regime on its borders, the 
Russians then moved to depose Daud and replace him with the Communist 
Nur Taraki, in April 1978. Ever since then, Afghanistan has been 
under the heel on one Communist ruler or another; yet nobody 
complained, and no American president threatened mayhem.

The reason for the latest Soviet invasions is simple but ironic in 
our world of corn-fed slogans. For the problem with Hafizullah Amin, 
the prime minister before the Soviet incursion, was that he was too 
Commie for the Russians. As a fanatical left Communist, Amin carried 
our a brutal program of nationalizing the peasantry and torturing 
opponents, a policy of collectivism and repression that fanned the 
flames of guerrilla war against him. Seeing Afghanistan about to slip 
under to the West once again, the Soviets felt impelled to go in to 
depose Amin and replace him with an Afghan Communist, Babrak Karmal, 
who is much more moderate a Communist and therefore a faithful 
follower of the Soviet line. There are undoubtedly countless 
conservatives and Social Democrats who still find it impossible to 
conceive of Soviet tools who are more moderate than other Communists, 
but it is high time they caught up with several decades of worldwide 
experience.

I deplore the Soviet invasion; I hope for victory of the Afghan 
masses: and I expect that eventually, as in Vietnam, the oppressed 
masses will triumph over the Soviet invaders and their puppet regime. 
The Afghans will win. Buy that is not reason whatever for other 
nations, including the United States, to leap into the fray. We must 
not die for Kabul!

The crocodile tears shed for the Afghans point up once again the 
disastrous concept of "collective security" which has provided the 
basis for the U.S. foreign policy since Woodrow Wilson and is the 
very heart and soul of the United Nations. Collective security means 
that any border skirmish anywhere, any territorial rectification, any 
troubles of any pipsqueak country, necessarily provides the sparkplug 
for a general holocaust, for a world war "against aggression". The 
world does not have one government, and so international war is not a 
"police action," despite the successful attempt of the warmonger 
Harry Truman to place that seemingly innocuous label on his military 
invasion of Korea.

U.S. hysteria over Afghanistan is the bitter fruit of the doctrine of 
collective security. If we are to avoid nuclear holocaust, if we are 
to prevent World War III, we must bury the doctrine of collective 
security once and for all, we must end the idea of the United States 
as God's appointed champion of justice throughout the world. We must 
pursue, in the immortal words of classical liberal Sydney Smith 
quoted in this issue, "apathy, selfishness, common sense, 
arithmetic." But we can't be apathetic in this pursuit, because 
time's a wastin.' American officials are ominously spreading the word 
that the Afghan crisis is the most threatening foreign affairs 
situation since the Cuban missile crisis of 1962, or even since World 
War II. No doubt: but only because the Carter administration and the 
war hawks have made it so.

Libertarians must mobilize to Stop the War, and to stop it now! We 
must stop the embargo (Carter's favorite foreign policy tactic), 
which is both criminal and counterproductive. Criminal because it 
aggresses against the rights of private property and free exchange. 
Criminal because it represses trade and thereby injures both the 
American public and the innocent civilian public of both Iran and 
Afghanistan. Counterproductive because, while hurting innocent 
civilians, embargoes do nothing to injure the power elites of either 
side. Embargoes will only unify the people of Iran and Afghanistan 
behind their regimes, which they will identify as defending them and 
their food supply against the aggressor Carter.

We must stop the war...and earn the gratitude of all Americans who 
cherish peace and freedom, and of future generations of Americans who 
will, one hopes, emerge from the bloody century-long miasma of 
nationalist chauvinism to see their way clear at long last for the 
truly American and the genuinely libertarian policy of 
nonintervention and peace.

Copyright © 2001 Ludwig von Mises Institute

Murray 
Rothbard Archives

**************************************************************************
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From mmotyka at lsil.com  Mon Oct  8 16:30:36 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 16:30:36 -0700
Subject: How Can Water Distribution Systems Be Kept Secure?
Message-ID: <3BC2371C.47BD343C@lsil.com>


UV is actually a very good disinfectant. It works by damaging the
DNA/RNA of bacteria and virii. There is evidence of some viruses being
re-activated by sunlight. UV coupled with a primary disinfectant like Cl
makes a pretty safe system. The 4ft GE Quartz UV bulbs are powerful. The
water should be clear - turbid water attentuates the UV too much.

In very poor places where many children die of dehydration because of
contaminated water and where there is little or no money for water
systems, aid workers have taught the kids to put water into clear
plastic drink bottles ( the kind our landfills are clogged with ) and
leave it in the sun. It works quite well.

How are RO systems at removing microorganisms?

Mike




From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Oct  8 15:02:24 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 17:02:24 -0500
Subject: C'est Need To Know!
Message-ID: <3BC22270.3EFB7BFD@ssz.com>


http://www.ntk.net/
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From tcmay at got.net  Mon Oct  8 17:06:46 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 17:06:46 -0700
Subject: More on Anthrax cases at publishing company in Florida
In-Reply-To: <58627396-BC23-11D5-B568-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <8742EEE4-BC49-11D5-B568-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Monday, October 8, 2001, at 12:33 PM, Tim May wrote:
> (Be interesting if it turns out a pressman bagging the newspapers for
> shipment around the country has ties to the other WTC Jihad warriors.
> "The FBI has confirmed that Mustafa bin Azolot, a 22-year-old worker in
> the printing plant, has disappeared from his apartment in Lantana,
> Fla.")

Pretty close to what Newsweek ( http://www.msnbc.com/news/639937.asp  )
is now saying:

" NEWSWEEK has learned that the FBI is aggressively trying to locate a
summer intern from nearby Florida Atlantic University in connection with
the investigation. The intern, who sources said came from a Middle
Eastern country, had sent an e-mail to all employees that a top American
Media official described as peculiar. The email thanked company
employees for the help he gave them, but then contained language
suggesting that he wasnt saying goodbye."

MSNBC is reporting on the air that the anthrax was mailed and may have
been mailed to  other newspapers as well. (Howard Fineman is being
interviewed on the Chris Matthews show.)


--Tim May
"Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and
strangled with her panty hose,  is somehow morally superior to a woman
explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound"




From schear at lvcm.com  Mon Oct  8 17:44:07 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 17:44:07 -0700
Subject: New fashion trend
In-Reply-To: <8E327042-BC43-11D5-B568-0050E439C473@got.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011008160930.03ad53d0@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011008174314.03aede70@pop3.lvcm.com>


At 04:24 PM 10/8/2001 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>On Monday, October 8, 2001, at 04:10 PM, Steve Schear wrote:
>
>>
>>[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name 
>>of Please don't hurt me.jpg"; x-mac-type="4A504547"; x-mac-
>>creator="4A565752]
>>
>
>Please don't send JPEGs or MPEGs or anything of the sort to our mailing list.

Roger that.

If anyone would like a copy of a fairly funny, small, .jpg send me some  email.

steve




From flaunt at flaunt.com  Mon Oct  8 14:45:26 2001
From: flaunt at flaunt.com (Flaunt.com)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 17:45:26 -0400
Subject: Join 20,000 actors, filmmakers and writers who are already on Flaunt.com
Message-ID: <20011008214835734.ACK183@mail.flaunt.com@[66.9.36.138]>


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From juancarlos at memorykings.net  Mon Oct  8 14:57:44 2001
From: juancarlos at memorykings.net (juancarlos at memorykings.net)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 17:57:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Epson Printers & Logitech Mouses
Message-ID: <200110082157.RAA11874@smtp2.fdn.com>



Hello,

My name is Juan Carlos; I am a sales representative for King Interactive Distributors. I wanted to inform you of products we currently have available. I can assure you that all of our products are at lowest price. I do hope you reply with interest to any of our products. 

New Logitech Ifeel  mouse retail box 16.00 usb 
New Logitech First wheel mouse at 7.00 retail box usb & ps2

Epson stylus 777-color printer. New in retail box, 1yr factory Guarantee. @$55.00 min 10 units.
New 128 pc133 Memory $12.25
Cell phone antenna boosters 57 cents


Juancarlos at memorykings.net

King Interactive Distributors.
5450 S. State rd 7 #11
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl 33314
Toll Free 1-866-218-1263
Fax 954-584-2905
Mon-Fri 10-5pm Eastern Time Zone




From tcmay at got.net  Mon Oct  8 18:04:37 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 18:04:37 -0700
Subject: New fashion trend
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011008174314.03aede70@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: <9C3CBE34-BC51-11D5-B568-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Monday, October 8, 2001, at 05:44 PM, Steve Schear wrote:

> At 04:24 PM 10/8/2001 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>> On Monday, October 8, 2001, at 04:10 PM, Steve Schear wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a 
>>> name of Please don't hurt me.jpg"; x-mac-type="4A504547"; x-mac-
>>> creator="4A565752]
>>>
>>
>> Please don't send JPEGs or MPEGs or anything of the sort to our 
>> mailing list.
>
> Roger that.
>

Thanks.

If I appear short-tempered, I simply get way too many things sent to me 
each day. If they are articles written by the authors, this is one 
thing. But getting jokes, cartoons, and op-ed pieces every single day is 
just too much.



--Tim May, Citizen-unit of of the once free United States
" The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood 
of patriots & tyrants. "--Thomas Jefferson, 1787




From tbr at tabun.com  Mon Oct  8 18:06:45 2001
From: tbr at tabun.com (Tabla bin Rasa)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 18:06:45 -0700
Subject: freezing Osama; burning down the house
Message-ID: <3BC24DA4.F62C57F7@tabun.com>


Stormin' Norman (tm) leaked the following: the US
can ID humans in the *cold* desert.  And its getting *buttcold*
in certain parts of the world.  If we can't find him, we can starve
and freeze him.

One nice bit of karma: the Mullah's house burned down.
Probably without warning, and only his house.  Nice
hand of god fireworks, general.




From honig at sprynet.com  Mon Oct  8 18:14:29 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 18:14:29 -0700
Subject: Another precious moment from shrub...
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011008181429.0097c910@pop.sprynet.com>


At 08:40 AM 10/8/01 +0200, Nomen Nescio wrote:
>The really peculiar thing about Bush's speech was that while he was
>giving his war talk, you could see through the window behind him that
>people were flying kites in the park.  How bizarre to juxtapose the
>fragile innocence of kite-flying with the harsh reality of warfare.
>

I saw this too.  I was amazed; never have I seen this ad-hoc-ness
in US CINC VIDEO, Inc.

As for surreality factor, well, we've been pinned for a while.




From schear at lvcm.com  Mon Oct  8 18:15:02 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 18:15:02 -0700
Subject: How Can Water Distribution Systems Be Kept Secure?
In-Reply-To: <3BC2371C.47BD343C@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011008175947.03ad6d98@pop3.lvcm.com>


At 04:30 PM 10/8/2001 -0700, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote:
>UV is actually a very good disinfectant. It works by damaging the
>DNA/RNA of bacteria and virii. There is evidence of some viruses being
>re-activated by sunlight. UV coupled with a primary disinfectant like Cl
>makes a pretty safe system. The 4ft GE Quartz UV bulbs are powerful. The
>water should be clear - turbid water attentuates the UV too much.
>
>In very poor places where many children die of dehydration because of
>contaminated water and where there is little or no money for water
>systems, aid workers have taught the kids to put water into clear
>plastic drink bottles ( the kind our landfills are clogged with ) and
>leave it in the sun. It works quite well.
>
>How are RO systems at removing microorganisms?

[From some consumer spec comparisons to a RO unit I use]

Types Of Drinking Water Appliances & Pollutants Removed

Pollutant       Sediment        Activated       Reverse Distil- De-Ion- UV
         Filter  Carbon  Osmosis ation   ization
Sodium  No      No      Yes     Yes     Yes     No
Arsenic         No      No      Yes     Yes     Yes     No
Lead    No      No      Yes     Yes     Yes     No
Cadmium         No      No      Yes     Yes     Yes     No
Cysts   No      Some    Yes     Yes     No      Yes
   (Crypotosporidium)
Sulfates        No      No      Yes     Yes     Yes     No
Calcium (Hardness)      No      No      Yes     Yes     Yes     No
Magnesium       No      No      Yes     Yes     Yes     No
   (Hardness)
Phosphates      No      No      Yes     Yes     Yes     No
Chlorides       No      No      Yes     Yes     Yes     No
Florides        No      No      Yes     Yes     Yes     No
Alkalinity      No      No      Yes     Yes     Yes     No
Fecal Bacteria  No      Most    Yes     Yes     No      Yes
Viruses         No      No      Yes     Yes     No      Yes
Organics        Yes     Yes     Yes     Yes     No      No
Trialomethanes  No      Yes     Yes     No      Yes     No
Trichloroethlene        No      Yes     Yes     No      Yes     No
Ph 
Factor       No      No      Neutralizes     Neutralizes     Neutralizes 
  No
Radioactive     No      No      Yes     No      No      No
   Contaminates
Chlorine        No      Yes     Yes     Most    No      No
Pesticides      No      Yes     Yes     Yes     No      No
Sediment        Yes     Most    Yes     Yes     Yes     No
Unpleasant      No      Yes     Yes     No      Yes     No
   Taste/Odor




From tbr at tabun.com  Mon Oct  8 18:24:28 2001
From: tbr at tabun.com (Tabla bin Rasa)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 18:24:28 -0700
Subject: Let's Attack The Irish White Christian Terroroists...
Message-ID: <3BC251CC.ECB84E72@tabun.com>


At 11:11 AM 10/8/01 +0000, Steve Mynott wrote:
>because the terrorists said, probably on purpose, the wrong end of the
>street and the people were moved towards the bomb.

It is an interesting question, as yet unexplored, whether the
2nd WTC plane/manned-cruise-missile (made by Boeing in either case)
was intended as an "emergency
personnel bomb" (following the christian anti-abortionist bombing,
et alia model)
or whether they were just going for redundancy/extra effect.  After all,

the lameass parking lot WTC bomb a few years ago didn't do a hundredth
of the effect of
10 guys and two planes..  Orderz of Magnitude, DOOD..


-No Foxes in Aholes...




From elyn at consect.com  Mon Oct  8 15:26:17 2001
From: elyn at consect.com (Elyn Wollensky)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 18:26:17 -0400
Subject: What color are anthrax spores anyway?
References: <334D1195-BC2C-11D5-B568-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <024c01c15048$528379a0$6b8d1d18@nyc.rr.com>


> The events of today just confirmed what came out on Friday: the second
> case, and the fact that the cases are within a few miles of where the
> Jihad warriors trained, is mighty suspicious. The cover story, that
> Edwards must have gotten it during a trip to North Carolina, is now "no
> longer operative."

(based solely on proper CDC responce to a questionable hazzard such as
pulmonary anthrax):

If it had been truly believed by ANYONE at the CDC that the situation had
originated in N. Carolina, there would have been one hell of a lockdown of
all farms and immediate testing of all livestock in the region (including
samples from every restaurant, meat packing plant, food market, furrier, and
slaughterhouse - as well as samples from every worker involved with
livestock, every farmer, chef, and meat packer etc). There was no such
effort

If it has been belived that the 2 incidents were bizzarely timed, yet
natural incident occuring in Florida, the same actions would have occured in
Florida in every town these men had lived in or visited for the past 60
days.

There would have also been an immediate stoppage of all meat deliveries by
all meat packing plants, slaughterhouses would have been shut down for
testing, and all livestock farms that dealt with any of the supermarkets and
plants in Florida - and the CDC would have immediately put a call out to
stop all meat consumption in those states that recieved meat from the same
plants ... None of this occured.

Tim is correct  about the North Carolina story "no longer operative." The
story that this occured naturally seems to be slowly slipping as well -

Elyn






> --Tim May
> "Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and
> strangled with her panty hose,  is somehow morally superior to a woman
> explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound"




From holala at fiberia.com  Mon Oct  8 19:02:28 2001
From: holala at fiberia.com (holala at fiberia.com)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 19:02:28
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <75.408360.891396@mail.dellie.87.it>


AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV: 
Making over Half  Million Dollars every 4 to 5 Months from your Home for an investment of only 
$25 U.S. Dollars expense one time 
THANK'S TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET! 
================================================== 

BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!! 
Before you say ''Bull'', please read the following. 
This is the letter you have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the Popularity of this 
letter on the Internet, a national weekly news program recently devoted an entire show to the 
investigation of this program described below, to see if it really can make people money. The 
show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved once and for 
all that there are ''absolutely NO Laws prohibiting the participation in the program and if 
people can follow the simple instructions, they are bound to make some mega bucks with only $25 
out of pocket cost''. DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS PROGRAM HAS 
ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER. 
This is what one had to say: ''Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I was approached many times 
before but each time I passed on it. I am so glad I finally joined just to see what one could 
expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received total 
$610,470.00 in 21 weeks, with money still coming in." Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey. 
=================================================== 
Here is another testimonial: "This program has been around for a long time but I never believed 
in it. But one day when I received this again in the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I 
followed the simple instructions and  3 weeks later the money started to come in. First month I 
only made $240.00 but the next 2 months after that I made a total of $290,000.00. So far, in the 
past 8 months by re-entering the program, I have made over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again. 
The key to success in this program is to follow the simple steps and NOT change anything.'' 

More testimonials later but first, 

===== PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE ====== 
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ 

If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months easily And comfortably, please 
read the following...THEN READ IT AGAIN and AGAIN!!! 

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ 

FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, GUARANTEED! 

INSTRUCTIONS: 

=====Order all 5 reports shown on the list below ===== 

For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL 
ADDRESS to the person whose name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN 
ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems. 

=== When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 reports. 

You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. 

YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5=$25.00. 

Within a few days you will receive, vie e-mail, each of the 5 reports from these 5 different 
individuals. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's 
of people who will order them from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it on your 
desk in case something happen to your computer. 

IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their 
sequence on the list, in any way other than what is instructed below in step '' 1 through 6 '' or 
you will lose out on majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you will 
also see how it does not work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you 
alter, it will NOT work !!! People have tried to put their friends/relatives names on all five 
thinking they could get all the money. But it does not work this way. Believe us, we all have 
tried to be greedy and then nothing happened. So Do Not try to change anything other than what is 
instructed. Because if you do, it will not work for you. Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 

1.... After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and REMOVE the name & address 
of the person in REPORT # 5. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting 
their fortune. 
2.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5. 
3.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4. 
4.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3. 
5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2 
6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. 

PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! 
========================================================== 

**** Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it on your computer.  DO 
NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. 
Save this on a disk as well just in case you lose any data. To assist you with marketing your 
business on the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing 
information which includes how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free 
classified ads and much more. There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going: 

METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY 
========================================================== 
Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we will assume You and 
those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let's also assume that the mailing receive only 
a 0.2% response (the response could be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2%. Also many 
people will send out hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 each). 

Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. With a 0.2% response, that is only 
10 orders for report # 1. Those 10 people responded by sending out 5,000 e-mail each for a total 
of 50,000. Out of those 50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders.That's=100 people 
responded and ordered Report # 2. Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 
500,000 e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report # 3. Those 1000 people send 
out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million e-mails sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 
10,000 orders for Report # 4. Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 
50,000,000 (50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for Report # 5 
THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH=$500,000.00 (half million). 
Your total income in this example is: 1..... $50 + 2..... $500 + 3.....$5,000 + 4.... $50,000 + 
5..... $500,000 ....... Grand Total=$555,550.00 
NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGUREOUT THE WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER 
HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY ! 

========================================================= 

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO. 
Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone or half or even one 4th of those people 
mailed 100,000e-mails each or more? There are over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide 
and counting. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! 

METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET 
======================================================= 
Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there are hundreds of FREE places to 
advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the Internet will easily get a larger response. We 
strongly suggest you start with Method # 1 and add METHOD # 2 as you go along. For every $5 you 
receive, all you must do is e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it. Always provide same 
day service on all orders. This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and 
address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they receive the report. 

=========== AVAILABLE REPORTS ==================== 

ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each 
Report. Checks NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets 
of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are 
ordering, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address. 

PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW : 
==================================================== 
REPORT #1: How to Send Out 0ne Million e-mails for Free 
Order Report # 1 from: 

Y.Sherieff 
P.O. Box # 72 
Flinders Lane 
Victoria � 8009 
Australia 
________________________________________________________ 

REPORT# 2: The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Net 
Order Report #2 from: 

WCI
4455 Torrance Blvd. #691 
Torrance, CA. 90503 USA
______________________________________________ 

REPORT # 3: The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the Net 
Order Report # 3 from: 

Nada Mahmood 
P.O. Box 5385 
Manama, Bahrain 
Arabian Gulf 
_________________________________________________________ 
REPORT # 4: Secret to Multilevel Marketing on the Net 
Order Report # 4 from : 

Kamalarora 
m237,Vikaspuri, 
Newdelhi_110018 
India 
____________________________________________________________ 
REPORT # 5: How to Become a Millionaire Utilizing MLM & the Net 
Order Report # 5 from: 

Mahdokht Kaz 
1175 Road 6025 
Zinj 360, Bahrain 
Arabian Gulf 
____________________________________________________________ 

$$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$ 

Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: 

=== If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2 weeks, continue sending 
e-mails until you do. === After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you should 
receive 100 orders or more for REPORT # 2. If you did not, continue advertising or sending 
e-mails until you do. 

=== Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system 
is already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in ! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO 
REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a Different 
report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from 
you. 

IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE PROCESS 
AGAIN. 

There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate from this business !!! 

====================================================== 

FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: You have just received information that 
can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF 
EFFORT. You can make more money in the next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. 
Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well 
as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put your name and 
address in Report #1 and moved others to #2 ...........#5 as instructed above. One of the people 
you send this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be on every one of them. 

Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, 
I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially 
independent. 

IT IS UP TO YOU NOW ! 

============ MORE TESTIMONIALS ================ 

"My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an accountant with a major U.S. 
Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received this program I grumbled to Jody about 
receiving ''junk mail''. I made fun of the whole thing,spouting my knowledge of the population 
and percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my supposed 
intelligence and few days later she jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and 
was ready to lay the old ''I told you so'' on her when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was 
on me! Within 3 weeks she had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had Received 
total $147,200.00 ........... all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jody in her 
''hobby''. Mitchell Wolf M.D., Chicago, Illinois 

====================================================== 

''Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this 
plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there 
was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back''. '' I was 
surprised when I found my medium size post office box crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00in 
the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that it does not matter where people live. 
There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return and so big." Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, 
Canada 

======================================================= 

''I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I should have given 
it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I 
was e-mailed again by someone else .........11 months passed then it luckily came again...... I 
did not delete this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the money came within 
22 weeks." Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y. 

======================================================= 

''It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with little cost to you. I 
followed the simple instructions carefully and within 10 days the money started to come in. My 
first month I made $20,560.00 and by the end of third month my total cash count was $362,840.00. 
Life is beautiful, Thanx to internet.". Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand 

======================================================= 

ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON 'YOUR' ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM 

======================================================= 
If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office of Associate 
Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, 
Washington, D.C. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 




From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Mon Oct  8 19:27:53 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 19:27:53 -0700
Subject: How Can Water Distribution Systems Be Kept Secure?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011008175947.03ad6d98@pop3.lvcm.com>; from
  schear@lvcm.com on Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 06:15:02PM -0700
References: <3BC2371C.47BD343C@lsil.com>
  <5.1.0.14.0.20011008175947.03ad6d98@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: <20011008192753.A22439@navel.introspect>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp
Size: 2249 bytes
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URL: 

From schear at lvcm.com  Mon Oct  8 19:34:26 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 19:34:26 -0700
Subject: How Can Water Distribution Systems Be Kept Secure?
References: <3BC2371C.47BD343C@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <20011008193426.B22439@navel.introspect>


[Reformatted for legibility.  When posting tables, use spaces, not tabs,
keep total width <= 73 characters, and compose in a monospaced font,
unless specifying field delimiters.  KMSelf]

At 04:30 PM 10/8/2001 -0700, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote:
>UV is actually a very good disinfectant. It works by damaging the
>DNA/RNA of bacteria and virii. There is evidence of some viruses being
>re-activated by sunlight. UV coupled with a primary disinfectant like Cl
>makes a pretty safe system. The 4ft GE Quartz UV bulbs are powerful. The
>water should be clear - turbid water attentuates the UV too much.
>
>In very poor places where many children die of dehydration because of
>contaminated water and where there is little or no money for water
>systems, aid workers have taught the kids to put water into clear
>plastic drink bottles ( the kind our landfills are clogged with ) and
>leave it in the sun. It works quite well.
>
>How are RO systems at removing microorganisms?

[From some consumer spec comparisons to a RO unit I use]

Types Of Drinking Water Appliances & Pollutants Removed

Pollutant      Sediment Activated Reverse Distil-  De-Ion-  UV
                 Filter   Carbon  Osmosis  ation   ization
  Sodium           No        No      Yes     Yes     Yes     No
  Arsenic          No        No      Yes     Yes     Yes     No
  Lead             No        No      Yes     Yes     Yes     No
  Cadmium          No        No      Yes     Yes     Yes     No
  Cysts            No       Some     Yes     Yes     No      Yes
    (Crypotosporidium)
  Sulfates         No        No      Yes     Yes     Yes     No
  Calcium          No        No      Yes     Yes     Yes     No
  (Hardness)
  Magnesium        No        No      Yes     Yes     Yes     No
    (Hardness)
  Phosphates       No        No      Yes     Yes     Yes     No
  Chlorides        No        No      Yes     Yes     Yes     No
  Florides         No        No      Yes     Yes     Yes     No
  Alkalinity       No        No      Yes     Yes     Yes     No
  Fecal Bacteria   No        Most    Yes     Yes     No      Yes
  Viruses          No        No      Yes     Yes     No      Yes
  Organics         Yes       Yes     Yes     Yes     No      No
  Trialomethanes   No        Yes     Yes     No      Yes     No
  Trichloroethlene No        Yes     Yes     No      Yes     No
  Ph Factor        No        No      Neutr  Neutrl  Neutr    No
  Radioactive      No        No      Yes     No      No      No
     Contaminates
  Chlorine         No        Yes     Yes     Most    No      No
  Pesticides       No        Yes     Yes     Yes     No      No
  Sediment         Yes       Most    Yes     Yes     Yes     No
  Unpleasant       No        Yes     Yes     No      Yes     No
    Taste/Odor




From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Oct  8 19:35:51 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 19:35:51 -0700
Subject: More on Anthrax cases at publishing company in Florida
In-Reply-To: <0DE46A18-BC44-11D5-B568-0050E439C473@got.net>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011008131605.02c52c10@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com 
  >
Message-ID: <200110082342.TAA10585@granger.mail.mindspring.net>


Tim May sigged:

>" The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood 
>of patriots & tyrants. "--Thomas Jefferson, 1787

That is pretty funny, to let DNA determine which is which.

NYC has announced plans for a huge new DNA analysis center
as if calamity is to become a normal part of Fun City. Not that
that is news, heretofore Potter's Field took the anonymous
cadavers. Now Fresh Kills gets what is left over after DNA
ID.

FBI Tent City at Fresh Kills is the first rebuilding of New York,
the DNA Center the second.




From piolenc at mozcom.com  Mon Oct  8 05:07:19 2001
From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 20:07:19 +0800
Subject: What color are anthrax spores anyway?
References: 
Message-ID: <3BC196F7.2090BA9@mozcom.com>


Too short an incubation period for Anthrax.

Marc de Piolenc

measl at mfn.org wrote:
> 
> Hialeah, Florida-AP -- Florida officials say five people have been
> hospitalized after opening envelopes containing a mysterious white
> powder. Officials with the Hialeah Fire-Rescue Department in suburban
> Miami say one person at an apartment was taken to the hospital today after
> opening a manila envelope. Yesterday, four people at a house 20 blocks
> away were exposed to an apparently identical powder mailed in a manila
> envelope. They contacted authorities today and were hospitalized. Three of
> them are being treated for low-grade fevers.




From schear at lvcm.com  Mon Oct  8 20:17:10 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 20:17:10 -0700
Subject: How Can Water Distribution Systems Be Kept Secure?
In-Reply-To: <20011008193426.B22439@navel.introspect>
References: <3BC2371C.47BD343C@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011008201553.03ae14b0@pop3.lvcm.com>


At 07:34 PM 10/8/2001 -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
>[Reformatted for legibility.  When posting tables, use spaces, not tabs,
>keep total width <= 73 characters, and compose in a monospaced font,
>unless specifying field delimiters.  KMSelf]

I should have sent the table to myself first to check for readability.

How about http://www.awgm.com/aaquabest/catalog/processor251/ro_compare.htm

steve




From xeni at xeni.net  Mon Oct  8 20:57:55 2001
From: xeni at xeni.net (Xeni Jardin)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 20:57:55 -0700
Subject: Register on Anderson: "Times misquoted me - crypto expert"
Message-ID: 


You gotta love those scribes at the Register--take this comment on UK
tabloid frenzy over alleged stego-hijinks of OBL and crew:

"Since the Times' stablemates the Sun and the News of the World have
allegedly been hiding news in pornographic content for several years,
(although we've never found any news in either paper to substantiate
that meme), the allegation doesn't surprise us. "

XJ


-----
The Times misquoted me - crypto expert
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/55/22102.html
By Andrew Orlowski in San Francisco
Posted: 08/10/2001 at 17:43 GMT

International cryptography expert Professor Ross Anderson has demanded a
correction from the The Times for being misquoted on the subject of
terrorists' use of email.

With echoes of Phil Zimmermann's treatment by the Washington Post, which
manufactured quotes by Zimmermann expressing "regret" for devising PGP
encryption, Anderson says the Times journalist "was determined - or had
been instructed - to write the story anyway".

Anderson lambasts The Times for unquestioningly peddling the meme that
terrorists communicate using information hidden in pornographic content.

Since the Times' stablemates the Sun and the News of the World have
allegedly been hiding news in pornographic content for several years,
(although we've never found any news in either paper to substantiate
that meme), the allegation doesn't surprise us.

"It is unclear what national interest is served by security agencies
propagating this lurid urban myth. Perhaps the goal is to manufacture an
excuse for the failure to anticipate the events of September 11th.
Perhaps it is preparing the ground for an attempt at bureaucratic
empire-building via Internet regulation, as a diversionary activity from
the much harder and less pleasant task of going after al-Qaida.

"Perhaps the vision of bin Laden as cryptic pornographer is being spun
to create a subconscious link, in the public mind, with the scare
stories about child pornography that were used before September 11th
to justify government plans for greater Internet regulation," writes
Anderson.

Anderson suggests the articles "should be read as a deliberate plant by
MI5".

You can read more here

and here
. .




From xeni at xeni.net  Mon Oct  8 21:07:32 2001
From: xeni at xeni.net (Xeni Jardin)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 21:07:32 -0700
Subject: More on Anthrax cases at publishing company in Florida
In-Reply-To: <8742EEE4-BC49-11D5-B568-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: 


> MSNBC is reporting on the air that the anthrax was mailed and may have
> been mailed to  other newspapers as well.

...further evidence it's not nice to taunt Happy-Fun Jihad.

--XJ




From Laurenp018ny at sprint.net  Mon Oct  8 19:33:50 2001
From: Laurenp018ny at sprint.net (Laurenp018ny at sprint.net)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 21:33:50 -0500
Subject: i think it finally worked..                             4893661
Message-ID: <200110090233.VAA27035@lsh109.siteprotect.com>


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 (Laurenp018ny at sprint.net) on Monday, October 8, 2001 at 21:33:50
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From xeni at xeni.net  Mon Oct  8 21:39:06 2001
From: xeni at xeni.net (Xeni Jardin)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 21:39:06 -0700
Subject: FW: [SL] Anthrax: potential case #3 in Virginia
Message-ID: 


begin FW:

----------------------------
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28277-2001Oct8.html

<>


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From fogstorm at mac.com  Mon Oct  8 21:51:10 2001
From: fogstorm at mac.com (FogStorm)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 21:51:10 -0700
Subject: More on Anthrax cases at publishing company in Florida
In-Reply-To: <20011008232213.A15330@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <200110090443.f994hWa19273@smtp-out.mac.com>


On Monday, October 8, 2001, at 08:22  PM, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 05:06:46PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
>> MSNBC is reporting on the air that the anthrax was mailed and may have
>> been mailed to  other newspapers as well. (Howard Fineman is being
>> interviewed on the Chris Matthews show.)
>
> Time to take extra precautions when opening suspicious packages in
> the Wired News DC mailroom.

Sending anthrax through the mail could be an effective terror tactic. 
Anthrax if mailed to the media will help generate hysteria - frightened 
people who are largely ignorant about anthrax other than Anthrax + 
People = Death and who can disseminate news/rumor/fear to a great many 
people quickly. Even if there are few deaths the economic impact could 
be pretty big as people panic and refuse to open mail from strangers.

> Anyone who really wants to reach me will send email, anyway.

If someone want to target journalists it's not going to be all that hard 
to determine where journalists live.




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Mon Oct  8 21:59:20 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 21:59:20 -0700
Subject: AGAINST ID CARDS
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
 
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011008090626.0375b860@idiom.com>

At 06:41 PM 10/04/2001 -0400, Arnold G. Reinhold wrote:
>I too am very nervous about the prospect of national ID cards.
>I have an idea for a possible compromise, but I have not made up my mind 
>on it.
>I'm interested in hearing other people's opinions.
>
>The idea is a federal standard for secure  drivers' licenses. These would 
>be cards containing a chip that stores an electronically signed and time 
>stamped data file consisting of the driver's name, date of birth, height, 
>address, photo, and scanned signature, as well as endorsements such as 
>truck, school bus, motorcycle and hazmat operator licenses. All this 
>information is contained in existing drivers' licenses, but in a way that 
>is too easy to forge.

It's a really, *really* bad idea.
It's politically much easier to successfully oppose an obviously bad thing,
like National ID cards and other internal pass laws,
than to successfully oppose incremental changes in existing systems.
And forcing states to use uniform practices means that you
can't find a place to have a driver's license merely
indicate your driving skills, as opposed to hundreds of other uses.

For instance, collecting SSNs for driver's licenses,
which makes it possible to correlate drivers databases with
most other databases in the country, was done back in the 80s,
and in many states the SSN is printed on the DL or IS the DL number.
(The Federal Privacy Act had little effect on this process -
it's just a law, so future laws can easily change it, and did so.)

Another big change in DL policies was the requirement for
citizenship papers to get permission to drive.
Here in California that was largely done to prevent the
clear and present danger of people speaking Spanish while driving,
and many other states have jumped on the harassing-immigrants bandwagon.
Since many jobs need driver's licences (or at least transportation),
immigrants now have a major financial incentive to get them,
so the price and supply of corruption in motor vehicle departments
has gone up substantially.  Before this, the main people who needed
high-quality driver's licenses were convicted bad drivers
who were trying to dodge the system, and that was easier to stop.
(There was also a demand for fake ID for underage drinkers,
but low-quality fakes are fine for that, and they don't need to be
databased.)

Driver's licenses have increasingly become tools of social control -
the common excuse is "deadbeat dads", and in many states
conviction for drug possession offenses also gets them suspended.
Until 9/11, you could still routinely travel without government ID,
though many airlines have a policy of training their people to lie
about "no, that's always been the policy".
ACLU Cards with pictures would have helped that - don't leave home
without one - but I doubt we'll have that freedom again for a while.

New Jersey, BTW, encodes lots of information in the DL number -
the S8235 at the beginning of mine was a Soundex for "Stewart",
the 5 digits at the end encoded birthdate and I think
race or eye color, and some of the middle six digits may have also
encoded that, though some were just serial numbers.
It provides some security against licenses forged by
people who don't know the rules.
         [They're also listed in plaintext.  The forms let you
         update your address, but not most of the personal data,
         so my weight still shows what I weighed when I was 22.]

As long as there's a driver's license number printed on the card,
it's a unique ID for database lookups attached to your name.
If the other certifications are encrypted, that means that
*you* don't know what they say, but cops who run the card
through a computer lookup will - and cops will *have* to
run the card through a computer lookup to use them,
whereas now they can just look at them if they want.
If you could get a card that just had your picture and the
certifications, and not your name or address,
that might be an improvement, but it ain't gonna happen.

And meanwhile, in many states you've got some flexibility about
whether the license lists the address where you get snailmail
or the address where you sleep or the address where you own land.
Expect any uniform standards to erase that.

What can the ability to do database lookups do?
Well, if the signatures indicate that you're black,
or a Registered Republican Voter, or a Welfare Recipient,
or a Registered Drug Offender, it's much easier for
anybody who wants to target you do do so.
If the databases are only accessible to authorized users,
that increases the demand for bribable authorized users,
especially if the expanded set of uses expands the set of
authorized users.  It's possible to keep the different sets
of information separate, if there's the technical skill
and political will to do so, but there's little enough of the former
and none of the latter among the kinds of people who'd
make the requirements for that kind of system.

                 Bill Stewart




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From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Mon Oct  8 22:05:06 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 22:05:06 -0700
Subject: Risks of bogus e-mail addresses "FROM: ObL": Risks Digest
  21.68
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011008220356.038820c0@idiom.com>


Actually, the press article describes the message as an "SMS",
which is a GSM Short Message Service cell-phone text message,
rather than an email.  This implies that the Belgian police
are either routinely eavesdropping on GSM text messages,
or else some intelligence service is doing so and asked them
to do the local legwork.

-----Original Message-----
From: David Farber [mailto:dave at farber.net]
Sent: Monday, October 08, 2001 3:50 PM
To: ip-sub-1 at majordomo.pobox.com
Subject: IP: Risks of bogus e-mail addresses "FROM: ObL": Risks Digest 21.68

 >Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 14:11:16 -0400
 >From: Peter Wayner 
 >Subject: Risks of bogus e-mail addresses "FROM: ObL"
 >
 >Sincerely yours, *Not* Osama bin Laden?
 >
 >A Filipino in Belgium ended up in jail after *receiving* a joke e-mail
 >seemingly from Osama bin Laden (but apparently from one of his friends),
 >asking to "stay with you for a couple of days."  The man was freed only
 >after a Catholic priest vouched for him as a regular attendee each Sunday.
 >[http://www.vnunet.com/News/1125822]
 >
 >   Ah, there's nothing like putting faith in identity, keyword scanning
 >   surveillance, and data stored in computers.




From cuttie_858 at hotmail.com  Mon Oct  8 15:15:00 2001
From: cuttie_858 at hotmail.com (mona ali)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 22:15:00 +0000
Subject: ad
Message-ID: 


hello i was wondering what sales maerials do u stuff into the envelopes.
and when u send in the order form there is no place to put how many 
envelopes u want to stuff and how many u need
                                    thankyou
                                        M.A


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From auto301094 at hushmail.com  Mon Oct  8 15:39:19 2001
From: auto301094 at hushmail.com (auto301094 at hushmail.com)
Date: Mon,  8 Oct 2001 22:39:19 +0000
Subject: How Can Water Distribution Systems Be Kept Secure?
Message-ID: <200110082239.f98MdJg33840@mailserver1.hushmail.com>

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From remailer at aarg.net  Mon Oct  8 22:45:04 2001
From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 22:45:04 -0700
Subject: Tony Blair's body language
Message-ID: <1eca4041b67cfe04ea9199c015faad4d@aarg.net>


>Is Tony Blair lying when he touches his nose?

Are his lips moving?

Please name one truthful politician.




From fogstorm at mac.com  Mon Oct  8 23:04:18 2001
From: fogstorm at mac.com (FogStorm)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 23:04:18 -0700
Subject: CDC Anthrax Info
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <200110090556.f995uSa14651@smtp-out.mac.com>


http://www.bt.cdc.gov/Agent/Anthrax/Anthrax.asp




From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Mon Oct  8 23:20:50 2001
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 23:20:50 -0700
Subject: al Qaeda website?
Message-ID: 


Attempting to obtain information from primary sources, I have been trying to
track down a bin Laden or al Qaeda website without any success. Does anybody
on this list have a URL?

I suspect that Afghanistan may not recognize US and EU blind signature
patents and thus would be suitable as a jurisdiction to distribute ecash
client software to help bypass the unconstitutional ban on American citizens
assisting the courageous warriors of Allah in their just fight.

--Lucky




From declan at well.com  Mon Oct  8 20:22:13 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 23:22:13 -0400
Subject: More on Anthrax cases at publishing company in Florida
In-Reply-To: <8742EEE4-BC49-11D5-B568-0050E439C473@got.net>; from
  tcmay@got.net on Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 05:06:46PM -0700
References: <58627396-BC23-11D5-B568-0050E439C473@got.net>
  <8742EEE4-BC49-11D5-B568-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <20011008232213.A15330@cluebot.com>


On Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 05:06:46PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> MSNBC is reporting on the air that the anthrax was mailed and may have
> been mailed to  other newspapers as well. (Howard Fineman is being
> interviewed on the Chris Matthews show.)

Time to take extra precautions when opening suspicious packages in
the Wired News DC mailroom.

Anyone who really wants to reach me will send email, anyway.

-Declan




From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Oct  8 23:24:40 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 23:24:40 -0700
Subject: RIAA Secret Meeting
In-Reply-To: <200108241719.NAA11400@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <20010824164400.19437.qmail@web13901.mail.yahoo.com>
  
Message-ID: <200110090331.XAA30582@granger.mail.mindspring.net>


Anonymous reports on a secret meeting of RIAA:

   http://cryptome.org/riaa-secret.htm

Excerpt:

"On Thursday October 4 there was a closed-door RIAA meeting at the
Ritz-Carlton, which was 'a direction setting' meeting. The individuals of
note attending were:

  Hillary Rosen - RIAA Chief
  Steve Heckler - Sony Music
  Strauss Zelnick - BMG
  Edgar Bronfman - Universal
  Gerald Levin - AOL Time-Warner
  Ken Berry - EMI
  Leonardo Chiariaglione - SDMI Chair (Leaving Soon)
  Francis Jones - Codex Data Systems
  Fritz Hollings - Senator
  Ted Stevens - Senator
  Michael Eisner - Disney CEO
  Jack Valenti - President, MPAA
  Andy Grove - Intel CEO
  Lou Gerstner - IBM
  Yoishi Morishita - CEO Matsushita
  Tsutomo Kawata - CEO Toshiba
  Jay Berman - IFPI Chair
  Paul England - Microsoft Advanced Cryptography research group

One particularly disturbing fact is that Codex Data System's DIRT 
software is supposed to be restricted to law enforcement agencies, 
yet the RIAA, MPAA, and IFPI have all purchased it, and use it 
routinely to monitor servers which are suspected of infringing 
content, yet are password protected such as servers which 
require one to sign up for a password account like hotline servers
that have no guest download."




From Valerie.Loy at btopenworld.com  Mon Oct  8 15:40:39 2001
From: Valerie.Loy at btopenworld.com (Valerie Loy)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 23:40:39 +0100
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <000a01c1504a$46cb11c0$8d437ad5@loy>

send me shit on bombs .Please!!!!!!!!!!!!
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From keyser-soze at hushmail.com  Mon Oct  8 16:57:30 2001
From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com)
Date: Mon,  8 Oct 2001 23:57:30 +0000
Subject: Looking at the bright side
Message-ID: <200110082357.f98NvUC45059@mailserver1.hushmail.com>


1. If one considers the readership of the named tabloids their elmination could lead to improvement in
  - the average intelligence of the U.S. population
  - democracy, since a more informed citizenry might result

2. As tobacco industry studies have implied, health risk based population reduction can sometimes have beneficial effects on a nation's health care and retirement expenses.




From nobody at dizum.com  Mon Oct  8 15:10:12 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Tue,  9 Oct 2001 00:10:12 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Second man tests positive for anthrax; media building
  closed
Message-ID: <12c2ef71c3f6ac744b4ae6616d75105e@dizum.com>


> (A complete speculation, admittedly, is the connection with the first 
> dead guy's occupation: a photographer for the weekly tabloid "The Sun." 
> Speculations that he was photographing the WTC pilots and their small 
> plane for a "scoop" on bioterrorism are unsubstantiated.)

Additional information from various reports: the first victim, Stevens,
lived about a mile from the airport where the hijackers practiced.
The Star office building is a few miles away.  Stevens' keyboard at his
office was found contaminated with Anthrax.  The second victim was not
infected internally with Anthrax but spores were found in his nose.

One of the purposes of the nose is to filter junk out before it gets
to the lungs.  If the Anthrax spores are the wrong size they will get
trapped like this.  Part of the art of preparing Anthrax weapons is
getting the particle sizes exactly right.

Hypothesis one: the Star reporters were trying to get a "scoop"
on bioterrorism.  Impossible!  How would they know where to find
bioterrorists?  Did Mohammed Atta and associates go around calling up
tabloids and offering them a "scoop"?  This is inconsistent with the
utter professionalism and secrecy with with the operation was conducted.

Hypothesis two: Stevens was infected via aerial spraying at his home and
carried the spores into the office.  Unlikely but possible.  It would
be difficult to bring enough spores in just on his clothes and person as
to contaminate the office and get spores into the nose of his co-worker.
And why were more people near Stevens' home not affected?  Possibly the
spray was extremely ineffective and only Stevens was unlucky enough to
get a fatal dose.

Hypothesis three: the Star office building was a test for distribution
of Anthrax spores via internal air circulation.  Unlikely but possible.
One would expect to see more internal contamination in the building
than just Stevens' keyboard, and more Star employees affected than two.
Again it is possible that the delivery was inefficient.  It may be that
more contamination was found which has not yet been reported.

Hypothesis four: Stevens was infected through natural environmental
exposure away from work and brought spores into the office.  Highly
unlikely, given the rarity of Anthrax exposure and the difficulty of
bringing in enough spores to infect someone else.

Hypothesis five: Stevens was infected through natural environmental
exposure in the office.  Extremely unlikely: Anthrax is found on animal
products (previous industrial cases have involved exposure to such
things as goat hides) and a photography editor would not be handling
such materials.

The most likely possibilities appear to be numbers two and three,
that this was either a test run or a botched attempt at infecting the
population.  The experts have been claiming for weeks that handling
these bioagents isn't as trivial as fearmongers would suggest.  It seems
probable that such factors are at work here.




From stevet at sendon.net  Mon Oct  8 17:23:12 2001
From: stevet at sendon.net (Steve Thompson)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 00:23:12 +0000
Subject: Guilt by Distribution
References: <007a01c15014$7a89be20$520da2cd@vaio>
Message-ID: <200110090024.AAA14132@divert.sendon.net>



sonofgomez709 (sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com), in a desperate bid to entertain, wrote:
[snip]
> I cut it short, because the original is 378 GB...
> Suffice it to say that the ParaMeters for who is TargetAble as a Certified BadGuy 
> has recently gotten Wider...and can be expected to MushRoom(BOOM!) at an
> expoential rate in the near future, now that THEY [TM] have seen the Ease with
> which THEY [TM] can SMEAR just about anyone THEY [TM] please by 
> Painting a Wider Swath via GuiltByAssociation...
> (Can eWe Say "I Only Sent A Single eMail To Jim Bell In My Whole Life?")
> ((Sure, eWe Can...))

Yet, you continue to post.  How does that work?  Does construction of prisons
by and for the Jesuits not yet near completion?


Regards,

Steve

-- 
Oldthinkers unbellyfeel Ingsoc.




From b00fa at hotmail.com  Mon Oct  8 21:42:33 2001
From: b00fa at hotmail.com (b00fa at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 00:42:33 -0400
Subject: Promoting your website or working from home
Message-ID: <200110090501.f9951Ef27437@ak47.algebra.com>


  Do you have a business with a webpage and you would like to generate upto half a million
hits a month to help you promote your business or product, or are you interested in what
more and more people are doing every day! That is, working from home over the internet.

  If you have an interest in the above topics than this email can help you. Please take
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on the link below.

 please note that your email address will not be recorded and distributed by visiting this
  site.
 
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   If you wish tobe removed from any further mailings, just reply to the message
 with the WORD "remove" in the subject line.
 
 Thanks for your time
 
 Bruno
 




From b00fa at hotmail.com  Mon Oct  8 21:43:13 2001
From: b00fa at hotmail.com (b00fa at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 00:43:13 -0400
Subject: Promoting your website or working from home
Message-ID: <200110090501.WAA22838@toad.com>


  Do you have a business with a webpage and you would like to generate upto half a million
hits a month to help you promote your business or product, or are you interested in what
more and more people are doing every day! That is, working from home over the internet.

  If you have an interest in the above topics than this email can help you. Please take
the time to visit and read in full the website you will be forwarded too by clicking
on the link below.

 please note that your email address will not be recorded and distributed by visiting this
  site.
 
 http://hop.clickbank.net/hop.cgi?bzanon/bigdogs
 
   If you wish tobe removed from any further mailings, just reply to the message
 with the WORD "remove" in the subject line.
 
 Thanks for your time
 
 Bruno
 




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From: bestoffer at net2surge.com (American Express)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 00:48:59 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: American Express Platinum
Message-ID: <23752425.1002610139581.JavaMail.qkmail@sun-db>


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From declan at well.com  Mon Oct  8 22:05:54 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 01:05:54 -0400
Subject: More on Anthrax cases at publishing company in Florida
In-Reply-To: ; from
  xeni@xeni.net on Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 09:07:32PM -0700
References: <8742EEE4-BC49-11D5-B568-0050E439C473@got.net>
  
Message-ID: <20011009010554.A28271@cluebot.com>


Of course it's probably Fox News that would be targeted first, with
the "Indicted Terrorist" or similar label slapped alongside ol'OBL at
every possible opportunity.

-Declan


On Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 09:07:32PM -0700, Xeni Jardin wrote:
> > MSNBC is reporting on the air that the anthrax was mailed and may have
> > been mailed to  other newspapers as well.
> 
> ...further evidence it's not nice to taunt Happy-Fun Jihad.
> 
> --XJ




From auto301094 at hushmail.com  Mon Oct  8 18:07:57 2001
From: auto301094 at hushmail.com (auto301094 at hushmail.com)
Date: Tue,  9 Oct 2001 01:07:57 +0000
Subject: How Can Water Distribution Systems Be Kept Secure?
Message-ID: <200110090107.f9917vr56217@mailserver1.hushmail.com>

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From sender1 at aol.com  Mon Oct  8 18:28:11 2001
From: sender1 at aol.com (sender1 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 02:28:11 +0100
Subject: Britney Masturbating Live!
Message-ID: <200110090128.CAA14540@copper.webfusion.co.uk>


Below is the result of your feedback form.  It was submitted by
 (sender1 at aol.com) on Tuesday, October 9, 2001 at 02:28:11
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

: Watch Britney Spears rubbing, fingering and moaning till she cums! And Best of all No credit card necessary!! Click Here now

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From osama_ben-laden at hushmail.com  Mon Oct  8 22:30:09 2001
From: osama_ben-laden at hushmail.com (osama_ben-laden at hushmail.com)
Date: Tue,  9 Oct 2001 05:30:09 +0000
Subject: Paper tigers
Message-ID: <200110090530.f995U9C90119@mailserver1.hushmail.com>


It will be revealed that he who used biologicals to attack the press was not acting in our name.  These will not be the pages upon which we will write death. We have other messengers and our tidings will soon be delivered.

Grace and gratitude to God.




From honig at sprynet.com  Tue Oct  9 08:38:06 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 08:38:06 -0700
Subject: More on Anthrax cases at publishing company in Florida
In-Reply-To: <20011008232213.A15330@cluebot.com>
References: <8742EEE4-BC49-11D5-B568-0050E439C473@got.net>
  <58627396-BC23-11D5-B568-0050E439C473@got.net>
  <8742EEE4-BC49-11D5-B568-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011009083806.0099d1f0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 11:22 PM 10/8/01 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>On Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 05:06:46PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
>> MSNBC is reporting on the air that the anthrax was mailed and may have
>> been mailed to  other newspapers as well. (Howard Fineman is being
>> interviewed on the Chris Matthews show.)
>
>Time to take extra precautions when opening suspicious packages in
>the Wired News DC mailroom.

The name "American Media" is a lot more telling in this case than
"Wired"




From xeni at xeni.net  Tue Oct  9 09:40:50 2001
From: xeni at xeni.net (Xeni Jardin)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 09:40:50 -0700
Subject: White House appointment: Officer of Cyber-security
Message-ID: 


White House press spokesman Ari Fleischer just announced pending
appointment of the "Officer of Cyber-Security" to the Homeland Defense
Team. I believe the appointee name was Roger Clarke, I may have the
first name wrong. They're going to brief more on this in about 30
minutes, and I'm sure more details will be evident by day's end.




From schear at lvcm.com  Tue Oct  9 09:55:01 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 09:55:01 -0700
Subject: Good 802.11b How-To
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011009095420.034c1050@pop3.lvcm.com>


http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/wireless/2001/08/24/linksys.html




From schear at lvcm.com  Tue Oct  9 10:00:37 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 10:00:37 -0700
Subject: America needs therapy
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011009095806.034bd2e0@pop3.lvcm.com>


The Day The World Came To Its Senses?
By Bill Moore

This week, Phil Watts, the chairman of Royal Dutch Shell, gave a
remarkable speech in New York, just three weeks after the tragedy of
September 11th.

Accustomed to making and approving business decisions and technology
plans that extend decades into the future, Watts told an audience
assembled under the auspices of the United Nations Development
Program, that Shell, one of the largest oil companies in the world,
was preparing for the "End of the Hydrocarbon Age."

Read more at




From tcmay at got.net  Tue Oct  9 10:09:25 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 10:09:25 -0700
Subject: Talking to the Press Considered Harmful
In-Reply-To: <3BC307C9.F300BDDE@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <63E073AE-BCD8-11D5-B568-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Tuesday, October 9, 2001, at 07:20 AM, Ken Brown wrote:
> Whatever the security services' motive, it is quite unclear to me why
> a `quality newspaper' should have run this story, even after its
> technical and operational implausibility were explained to you in
> detail (see also `Al-Qaeda hid coded messages on porn websites' [5]).
>
> Could you kindly publish this letter as a correction.
> Ross Anderson
> Reader in Security Engineering
> University of Cambridge

Insert here the usual quotes about "in war, the first casualty is truth."

Why anyone expects scribblers to stick to the truth (even their flaky 
conceptions of it) in these strange times is beyond me.

We have "Wired News" (not DM) nattering about "gun show loopholes," we 
have "Reason"  opining that free speech is rilly, rilly scary and like, 
ya know, there are no libertarians in foxholes.

I've had a couple of reporters try to reach me for "quotes." When I 
turned them down, they replied along the lines of "But it'll only take a 
minute of your time." All the worse, but they miss this point.

The time for careful consideration of crypto, civil rights, stego, 
biowarfare, and other such issues was over the past decade or two. And 
these issues _have_ been beaten to death.

But I guess a newspaper or magazine or even an online "newschat" service 
would not do well if it advised readers in 30-point type:

READ THE FUCKING ARCHIVES!

USE SEARCH ENGINES!


And so the sheeple are given aerosol sprays of factoids and rumors.


--Tim May, Citizen-unit of of the once free United States
" The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood 
of patriots & tyrants. "--Thomas Jefferson, 1787




From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Tue Oct  9 10:23:04 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 10:23:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Anthrax Case Number Three
Message-ID: <200110091723.f99HN4u16117@artifact.psychedelic.net>


http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/31567.htm

The New York Post is reporting that a female librarian at American Media
has pneumonia, and has tested positive for anthrax.

There's still no evidence, according to the FBI, that this anthrax
outbreak was the result of criminal activity.

Legionaire's Disease first appeared to be a terror weapon when significant
numbers of cases appeared at a convention center.  Later we learned that
it was simply a virulent form of pneumonia that liked to live in standing
water in building air conditioning systems.

Time will tell whether this anthrax outbreak is something similar.  
Clearly the timing is suspicious.

One would think that a competent biological warfare attack against an
office building with 300 people in it would kill more than one person.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




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From promotion at yapalot.com  Tue Oct  9 07:49:06 2001
From: promotion at yapalot.com (Yapalot Communications)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 10:49:06 -0400
Subject: Notice
Message-ID: <200110091455.HAA28390@toad.com>

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From email at hardleydangerous.com  Tue Oct  9 11:12:31 2001
From: email at hardleydangerous.com (Hardley Dangerous Illusions)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 11:12:31
Subject: MOTORCYCLE DEALERS: Your Customers are Asking for Peel & Stick Bullet Holes...
Message-ID: <200110091612.f99GCrb08804@ak47.algebra.com>

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From tcmay at got.net  Tue Oct  9 11:20:41 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 11:20:41 -0700
Subject: Google and the Net
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <58CA0B7A-BCE2-11D5-B568-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Tuesday, October 9, 2001, at 10:40 AM, Trei, Peter wrote:

>> Steve Mynott[SMTP:steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk] wrote:
>> Every thought how bad the net would be if google went away?
>>
> Actually, us old timers remember what it was like before google,
> or even altavista (the first real search engine). Heck, some of us
> remember what it was like before Usenet...
>
> In the early days of the web, you would start from some site which
> was vaguely associated with your topic, and follow links using a
> hill-climbing search pattern. It was slow, and kind of hit-or-miss.
> However, unlike today, many site maintainers really tried to maintain
> up-to-date, useful, and annotated lists of links to related sites. Yahoo
> started as just such a site, aglommerating link lists for many topics.
> (The web was a lot smaller in those days).
>
> Google is much goodness...

Hypertext in general is doubleplus good.

I remember Gopher, Archie, and all of those crufty tools. I never much 
used them.  A friend did, and he would show me stacks of printouts from 
obscure sites he'd found and ftp'ed.

I had a _very_ primitive access to the ARPANet in 1972-3, using a weird 
storage tube display in the Chemistry building at UCSB.

(One of the first four nodes, courtesy of folks like Glenn Culler, who 
did a lot of engineering work on the node processors. He had a company 
called "Culler-Fried" and also "Culler-Harrison." Early floating-point 
processors. One of his companies evolved into Floating Point Systems, in 
Beaverton, OR, and then this was eventually merged into Cray Research, 
and thence into Sun or SGI (I forget who got which pieces). I know that 
Sun's very successful multi-CPU offerings are largely based on the SPARC 
arrays done at FPS. So, from Culler to AP-120B to Cray to Sun in a mere 
30 years!)

Upon entering Intel, we had a lot of internal computer resources, but 
little or no access to ARPANet and then Internet. This changed around 
1980 for some groups, with strict controls, and changed again in the 
mid-80s. But even now there are obvious firewalls, formal and informal.

My first real Usenet account was gotten in 1988, through Portal 
Communications. One of the first to offer accounts to "civilians." (Part 
of the reworking/renaming/refocussing of the Net, but even then there 
was yammering that mentioning a product name violated the "no commercial 
use" rules.)

A major inflection point came in 1994-95, with the wide availability of 
browsers. Then Alta Vista and DejaNews. Now Google reigns supreme.

It'll be interesting to see how long Google survives.

--Tim May, Occupied America
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety 
deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759.




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Tue Oct  9 11:23:48 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 11:23:48 -0700
Subject: Detroit Free Press 
Message-ID: <3BC340B4.378DA892@lsil.com>


http://www.detroitfreepress.com/news/nw/terror2001/safe9_20011009.htm

>SECURITY INCREASES: U.S. on guard at home 
>
>Safety now measured by the things you see, and things you don't 
>
>October 9, 2001
>
>BY DAVID ZEMAN, JIM SCHAEFER AND TAMARA AUDI
>
This shithead collective makes some very casual statements :

>  Say good-bye to the relative anonymity of e-mail. 
>
>  Say hello to government "filtering" of suspicious messages. 
>
>  Say good-bye to the traditional photo identification at work. 
>
>  Say hello to fingerprint IDs. 
>
>  Government officials and civil libertarians are also
>  debating the merits of new computer software that is
>  being marketed for terrorist profiling. The software,
>  by Narus Inc. of Palo Alto, Calif., would allow the
>  government to monitor patterns of e-mail, Web site 
>  usage and Internet-based telephone calls to flush out
>  potential evildoers. 
>
It's just amazing how quickly people embrace this sheiss without
questioning it. Nobody wants to think about what will make us safer,
they just leap blindly towards technology and government. It's a sort of
long lost father figure problem - save me daddy. It's a sign of how weak
our society really is. Maybe the bad guys are not so far off the mark.
I'm ashamed by the weakness of our politicians, our journalists and all
too many of my "fellow" citizens.

Mike




From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Tue Oct  9 11:25:56 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 11:25:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Anthrax Case Number Three
Message-ID: <200110091825.f99IPuk16227@artifact.psychedelic.net>


http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/31567.htm

The New York Post is reporting that a female librarian at American Media
has pneumonia, and has tested positive for anthrax.

There's still no evidence, according to the FBI, that this anthrax
outbreak was the result of criminal activity.

Legionaire's Disease first appeared to be a terror weapon when significant
numbers of cases appeared at a convention center.  Later we learned that
it was simply a virulent form of pneumonia that liked to live in standing
water in building air conditioning systems.

Time will tell whether this anthrax outbreak is something similar.  
Clearly the timing is suspicious.

One would think that a competent biological warfare attack against an
office building with 300 people in it would kill more than one person.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu  Tue Oct  9 08:30:52 2001
From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 11:30:52 -0400
Subject: RIAA Secret Meeting
In-Reply-To: <200110090331.XAA30582@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <20010824164400.19437.qmail@web13901.mail.yahoo.com>
  
  <200110090331.XAA30582@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20011009113051.B16373@ils.unc.edu>


Astounding quotes from Hilary Rosen:

	"The drop in CD sales can be directly attributed to the new generation
	of file swapping services.  Because of their de-centralized nature, it
	is impossible to determine whether usage has surpassed that of Napster
	at its heyday."

gbn translation: "Even though CD sales have increased, they haven't
increased as much as we dreamed.  Therefore, we need to blame
something we can't even measure.  The only sound alternative
is to consider that our lowest-common-denominator pablum-puking
crappy products simply suck."
	
     	"We must ask that the safeharbor provision of the DMCA be
	removed.  Because of the magnitude of the
	problem, Internet service providers can no longer be shielded 
	from the wrath of the law." 

gbn translation: "I am the law" (spoken with a Judge Dredd sneer)

	"Once we stem piracy, we will be able to raise prices in order to
	regain lost profits from piracy."

gbn translation: "If we're unable to stem piracy, we will need
to raise prices to fight piracy better."

I'm a little worried that "Anonymous" misspelled Hilary Rosen's name,
but at least he/she got the gender right
(http://images.google.com/images?q=Hilary+Rosen) for pics.

The only remaining question is whether the fact of the meeting
can be verified via other sources.

  -- Greg

On Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 11:24:40PM -0700, John Young wrote:
> 
> Anonymous reports on a secret meeting of RIAA:
> 
>    http://cryptome.org/riaa-secret.htm
> 
> Excerpt:
> 
> "On Thursday October 4 there was a closed-door RIAA meeting at the
> Ritz-Carlton, which was 'a direction setting' meeting. The individuals of
> note attending were:
> 
>   Hillary Rosen - RIAA Chief
>   Steve Heckler - Sony Music
>   Strauss Zelnick - BMG
>   Edgar Bronfman - Universal
>   Gerald Levin - AOL Time-Warner
>   Ken Berry - EMI
>   Leonardo Chiariaglione - SDMI Chair (Leaving Soon)
>   Francis Jones - Codex Data Systems
>   Fritz Hollings - Senator
>   Ted Stevens - Senator
>   Michael Eisner - Disney CEO
>   Jack Valenti - President, MPAA
>   Andy Grove - Intel CEO
>   Lou Gerstner - IBM
>   Yoishi Morishita - CEO Matsushita
>   Tsutomo Kawata - CEO Toshiba
>   Jay Berman - IFPI Chair
>   Paul England - Microsoft Advanced Cryptography research group
> 
> One particularly disturbing fact is that Codex Data System's DIRT 
> software is supposed to be restricted to law enforcement agencies, 
> yet the RIAA, MPAA, and IFPI have all purchased it, and use it 
> routinely to monitor servers which are suspected of infringing 
> content, yet are password protected such as servers which 
> require one to sign up for a password account like hotline servers
> that have no guest download."




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From: FirstAm at ym1.net (1st American Discount)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 11:46:15 -0500
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From jet at tivo.com  Tue Oct  9 12:50:52 2001
From: jet at tivo.com (j eric townsend)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 12:50:52 -0700
Subject: Anthrax Case Number Three
In-Reply-To: <200110091825.f99IPuk16227@artifact.psychedelic.net>
References: <200110091825.f99IPuk16227@artifact.psychedelic.net>
Message-ID: 


At 11:25 AM -0700 10/9/01, Eric Cordian wrote:
>http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/31567.htm
>
>The New York Post is reporting that a female librarian at American Media
>has pneumonia, and has tested positive for anthrax.

CNN was reporting the tests were negative around 1130am pst.

They also reported that the FBI had interviewed and cleared the 
intern.  CNN claims they have also interviewed the intern and believe 
him not to be involved.


-- 
jet at tivo.com
408.519.9509
0x19D3BAF5, 5CCF 2251 5B45 0ABA B91D  AD81 4A60 3401 19D3 BAF5




From xeni at xeni.net  Tue Oct  9 13:22:51 2001
From: xeni at xeni.net (Xeni Jardin)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 13:22:51 -0700
Subject: White House appointment: Officer of Cyber-security
In-Reply-To: <20011009143053.C18392@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: 


Declan wrote:

> Just to be clear: The fellow is Richard Clarke. Roger Clarke is the
> Australian cryptographer/academic/engineer:
> http://www.politechbot.com/p-02621.html


Apologies for the error... wishful thinking on my part. In additions to
the background links on Richard Clark Declan posted, the office of the
Press Secretary's news release from this morning follows, FWIW--not much
new news there. BTW could someone on the Hill please wake up to the fact
that the adjective "cyber" is totally outre.

XJ

-----------------

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/10/20011009.html

For Immediate Release
Office of the Press Secretary
October 9, 2001

Fact Sheet
The National Director for Combating Terrorism & the Special Advisor to
the President for Cyberspace Security



   National Director & Deputy National Security Advisor for Combating
Terrorism
                 General Wayne Downing (U.S. Army Ret.)

Global  terrorism  poses  a  grave  danger  to the national security of
the United  States  and to the safety of all Americans at home and
abroad.  Our campaign   against   terrorism   must  include  military,
diplomatic,  law enforcement,   intelligence,   and   financial
operations   in   seamless coordination  with each other.  Many agencies
of the federal government are involved in this effort, and close
coordination among them is imperative to develop  and  execute a
strategy that draws on and integrates all available resources.

To  achieve  this policy, the President has established the position of
the National  Director  and  Deputy  National  Security  Advisor  for
Combating Terrorism.  The National Director will be the President's
principal advisor on  matters  related  to  combating global terrorism,
including all efforts designed to detect, disrupt, and destroy global
terrorist organizations and those who support them.

The  National  Director  will  report to the Assistant to the President
for National  Security  Affairs.  The National Director will also report
to the Assistant  to  the  President for Homeland Security with respect
to matters relating to global terrorism inside the United States.

         Special Advisor to the President for Cyberspace Security

                              Richard Clarke

The  information  technology  revolution  has  changed  the way business
is transacted,  government  operates,  and national defense is
conducted.  The United  States  now  depends  upon  a  complex,
interdependent  network of critical  infrastructure  information
systems  that  are  essential to our national and economic security.
These networks include information systems in the government,
telecommunications, banking and finance, transportation, energy,
manufacturing, water, health and emergency services networks.

The  United  States must protect against the disruption of the operation
of these  systems.   Any disruption that occurs must be infrequent, of
minimal duration, manageable, and cause the least possible damage.

The  President's  Special  Advisor  for Cyberspace Security will
coordinate interagency  efforts  to  secure  information  systems.   In
the event of a disruption, the Special Advisor will coordinate efforts
to restore critical systems.

The  Special  Advisor  will work in close coordination and partnership
with the  private sector, which owns and operates the vast majority of
America's critical  infrastructure.   The  Special  Advisor  will  be
the President's principal  advisor  on matters related to cyberspace
security and report to the  Assistant  to the President for Homeland
Security and to the Assistant to the President for National Security
Affairs.

The  Special Advisor will also serve as chairman of a government-wide
board that  will  coordinate  the protection of critical information
systems (the President  is  expected  to  sign  an Executive Order soon
establishing the board).




From peter.phillips at SONOMA.EDU  Tue Oct  9 13:38:25 2001
From: peter.phillips at SONOMA.EDU (Peter Phillips)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 13:38:25 -0700
Subject: Indymedia interviews Noam Chomsky
Message-ID: 

IMC CHOMSKY INTERVIEW | October 5, 2001
http://www.indymedia.org/

The following interview was conducted with Noam Chomsky via email on
October 5, 2001. Greg Ruggerio did the interview in conjunction with Indymedia.

greg at sevenstories.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------

IMC: In order to shape an international alliance, the U.S. has
suddenly shifted positions with a number of countries in the Middle
East, Africa and Asia, offering a variety of political, military and
monetary packages in exchange for forms of support. How might these
sudden moves be affecting the political dynamics in those regions?

CHOMSKY:  Washington is stepping very delicately. We have to remember
what is at stake: the world's major energy reserves, primarily in
Saudi Arabia but throughout the Gulf region, along with
not-inconsiderable resources in Central Asia. Though a minor factor,
Afghanistan has been discussed for years as a possible site for
pipelines that will aid the U.S. in the complex maneuvering over
control of Central Asian resources. North of Afghanistan, the states
are fragile and violent. Uzbekistan is the most important. It has
been condemned by Human Rights Watch for serious atrocities, and is
fighting its own internal Islamic insurgency. Tajikistan is similar,
and is also a major drug trafficking outlet to Europe, primarily in
connection with the Northern Alliance, which controls most of the
Afghan-Tajikistan border and has been the major source of drugs since
the Taliban virtually eliminated poppy production. Flight of Afghans
to the north could lead to all sorts of internal problems. Pakistan,
which has been the main supporter of the Taliban, has a strong
internal radical Islamic movement. Its reaction is unpredictable, and
potentially dangerous, if Pakistan is visibly used as a base for U.S.
operations in Afghanistan; and there is much well-advised concern
over the fact that Pakistan has nuclear weapons. The Pakistani
military, while eager to obtain military aid from the U.S. (already
promised), is wary, because of stormy past relations, and is also
concerned over a potentially hostile Afghanistan allied with its
enemy to the East, India. They are not pleased that the Northern
Alliance is led by Tajiks, Uzbeks, and other Afghan minorities
hostile to Pakistan and supported by India, Iran and Russia, now the
U.S. as well.

In the Gulf region, even wealthy and secular elements are bitter
about U.S. policies and quietly often express support for bin Laden,
whom they detest, as "the conscience of Islam" (New York Times,
October 5, quoting an international lawyer for multinationals,
trained in the U.S.). Quietly, because these are highly repressive
states; one factor in the general bitterness towards the U.S. is its
support for these regimes. Internal conflict could easily spread,
with consequences that could be enormous, especially if U.S. control
over the huge resources of the region is threatened. Similar problems
extend to North Afica and Southeast Asia, particularly Indonesia.
Even apart from internal conflict, an increased flow of armaments to
the countries of the region increases the likelihood of armed
conflict and the flow of weapons to terrorist organizations and
narcotraffickers. The governments are eager to join the U.S. "war
against terrorism" to gain support for their own state terrorism,
often on a shocking scale (Russia and Turkey, to mention only the
most obvious examples, though Turkey has always benefited from
crucial U.S. involvement).

IMC: Pakistan and India, border countries armed with nuclear weapons,
have been eye to eye in serious conflict for years. How might the
sudden and intense pressure that the U.S. is exerting in the region
impact their already volatile relationship?

CHOMSKY: The main source of conflict is Kashmir, where India claims
to be fighting Islamic terrorism, and Pakistan claims that India is
refusing self-determination and has carried out large-scale terrorism
itself. All the claims, unfortunately, are basically correct. There
have been several wars over Kashmir, the latest one in 1999, when
both states had nuclear weapons available; fortunately they were kept
under control, but that can hardly be guaranteed. The threat of
nuclear war is likely to increase if the U.S. persists in its
militarization of space programs (euphemistically described as
"missile defense"). These already include support for expansion of
China's nuclear forces, in order to gain Chinese acquiescence to the
programs. India will presumably try to match China's expansion, then
Pakistan, then beyond, including Israel. Its nuclear capacities were
described by the former head of the U.S. Strategic Command as
"dangerous in the extreme," and one of the prime threats in the
region. "Volatile" is right, maybe worse.

IMC: Prior to 9-11, the Bush administration was being fiercely
critiqued, ally nations included, for its political "unilateralism"-
refusal to sign on to the Kyoto protocol for greenhouse emissions,
intention to violate the ABM treaty in order to militarize space with
a "missile defense" program, walkout of the racism conference in
Durban, South Africa, to name only a few recent examples. Might the
sudden U.S. alliance-building effort spawn a new "multi-lateralism"
in which unexpected positive developments-like progress for
Palestinians-might advance?

CHOMSKY: It's worth recalling that Bush's "unilateralism" was an
extension of standard practice. In 1993, Clinton informed the UN that
the U.S. will-before-act "multilaterally when possible but
unilaterally when necessary," and proceeded to do so. The position
was reiterated by UN Ambassador Madeleine Albright and in 1999 by
Secretary of Defense William Cohen, who declared that the U.S. is
committed to "unilateral use of military power" to defend vital
interests, which include "ensuring uninhibited access to key markets,
energy supplies and strategic resources," and indeed anything that
Washington might determine to be within its "domestic jurisdiction."
The last phrase is important: it refers to the exception the U.S.
granted itself from World Court decisions, employed when it rejected
the Court's order to terminate its terrorist attack against
Nicaragua. But it is true that Bush went beyond, causing considerable
anxiety among allies. The current need to form a coalition may
attenuate the rhetoric, but is unlikely to change the policies.
Members of the coalition are expected to be silent and obedient
supporters, not participants. The U.S. explicitly reserves to itself
the right to act as it chooses, and is carefully avoiding any
meaningful recourse to international institutions, as required by
law. The Palestinians are unlikely to gain anything. On the contrary,
the terrorist attack of September 11 was a crushing blow to them, as
they and Israel recognized immediately.

IMC:  Since 9-11, Secretary of State Colin Powell has been signalling
that the U.S. may adopt a new stance toward the plight of
Palestinians. What is your reading?

CHOMSKY: My reading is exactly that of the officials and other
sources quoted towards the end of the front-page story of the New
York Times. As they made clear, Bush-Powell do not even go as far as
Clinton's Camp David proposals, lauded in the mainstream here but
completely unacceptable, for reasons discussed accurately in Israel
and elsewhere, and as anyone could see by looking at a map-one
reason, I suppose, why maps were so hard to find here, though not
elsewhere, including Israel. One can find more detail about this in
articles at the time of Camp David, including my own, and essays in
the collection edited by Roane Carey The New Intifada.

IMC: The free flow of information is one of the first casualties of
any war. Is the present situation in any way an exception? Examples?

CHOMSKY: Impediments to free flow of information in countries like
the U.S. are rarely traceable to government; rather, to
self-censorship of the familiar kind. The current situation is not
exceptional-considerably better than the norm, in my opinion.

There are, however, some startling examples of U.S. government
efforts to restrict free flow of information abroad. The Arab world
has had one free and open news source, the satellite TV news channel
Al-Jazeera in Qatar, modelled on BBC, with an enormous audience
throughout the Arab-speaking world. It is the sole uncensored source,
carrying a great deal of important news and also live debates and a
wide range of opinion-broad enough to include Colin Powell a week ago
and Israeli Prime Minister Barak (me too, just to declare an
interest). Al-Jazeera is also "the only international news
organization to maintain reporters in the Taliban-controlled part of
Afghanistan" (Wall Street Journal). Among other examples, it was
responsible for the exclusive filming of the destruction of Buddhist
statues that rightly infuriated the world. It has also provided
lengthy interviews with bin Laden that I'm sure are perused closely
by Western intelligence agencies and are invaluable to others who
wants to understand what he is thinking. These are translated and
rebroadcast by BBC, several of them since 9-11.

Al-Jazeera is, naturally, despised and feared by the dictatorships of
the region, particularly because of its frank exposures of their
human rights records. The U.S. has joined their ranks. BBC reports
that "The U.S. is not the first to feel aggrieved by al-Jazeera
coverage, which has in the past provoked anger from Algeria, Morocco,
Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Egypt for giving airtime to political
dissidents."

The Emir of Qatar confirmed that "Washington has asked Qatar to rein
in the influential and editorially independent Arabic al-Jazeera
television station," BBC reported. The Emir, who also chairs the
Organization of Islamic Conference that includes 56 countries,
informed the press in Washington that Secretary of State Powell had
pressured him to rein in Al-Jazeera: to "persuade Al-Jazeera to tone
down its coverage," Al-Jazeera reports. Asked about the reports of
censorship, the Emir said: "This is true. We heard from the U.S.
administration, and also from the previous U.S. administration" (BBC,
October 4, 2001, citing Reuters).

The only serious report I noticed of this highly important news is in
the Wall Street Journal (October 5), which also describes the
reaction of intellectuals and scholars throughout the Arab world
("truly appalling," etc.). The report adds, as the Journal has done
before, that "many Arab analysts argued that it is, after all,
Washington's perceived disregard for human rights in officially
pro-American countries such as Saudi Arabia that fuels the rampant
anti-Americanism." There has also been remarkably little use of the
bin Laden interviews and other material from Afghanistan available
from Al-Jazeera.

So yes, there are barriers to free flow of information, but they
cannot be blamed on government censorship or pressure, a very
marginal factor in the United States.

###

----- End forwarded message -----




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Tue Oct  9 10:40:55 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 13:40:55 -0400 
Subject: al Qaeda website?
Message-ID: 


> Steve Mynott[SMTP:steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk] wrote:
> Every thought how bad the net would be if google went away?
> 
Actually, us old timers remember what it was like before google,
or even altavista (the first real search engine). Heck, some of us
remember what it was like before Usenet...

In the early days of the web, you would start from some site which
was vaguely associated with your topic, and follow links using a
hill-climbing search pattern. It was slow, and kind of hit-or-miss.
However, unlike today, many site maintainers really tried to maintain
up-to-date, useful, and annotated lists of links to related sites. Yahoo
started as just such a site, aglommerating link lists for many topics.
(The web was a lot smaller in those days).

Google is much goodness...

Peter Trei




From mob at mbox301.swipnet.se  Tue Oct  9 04:40:58 2001
From: mob at mbox301.swipnet.se (Mats O. Bergstrom)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 13:40:58 +0200
Subject: Risks of bogus e-mail addresses "FROM: ObL": Risks Digest 
  21.68
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20011008220356.038820c0@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <4.1.20011009131544.0093f290@zebra.swip.net>


At 22:05 2001-10-08 -0700, Bill Steward wrote:

>Actually, the press article describes the message as an "SMS",
>which is a GSM Short Message Service cell-phone text message,
>rather than an email.  This implies that the Belgian police
>are either routinely eavesdropping on GSM text messages,
>or else some intelligence service is doing so and asked them
>to do the local legwork.

I doubt that the story is true. Belgium couldn't be that different
from Sweden. Since SMS-ing is cheap it's a major method of
communicating especially for younger (poorer) persons but
increasingly also for the middle aged. The "Hi, I feel lonely,
everybody seems out to get me, can I stay at your place for a while,
Grettings, Osama"-SMS joke chain letter - with several variants -
have been around here for several weeks and in a very large scale.
I've recieved several and everyone I've asked has got at least one,
usually from a close friend.

The joking community is unintentionally flooding Echelon.

//Mob




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Tue Oct  9 14:08:41 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 14:08:41 -0700
Subject: Anthrax Case Number Three
Message-ID: <3BC36759.116E857F@lsil.com>


Eric Cordian  wrote :
>http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/31567.htm
>
>The New York Post is reporting that a female librarian at American Media
>has pneumonia, and has tested positive for anthrax.
>
>There's still no evidence, according to the FBI, that this anthrax
>outbreak was the result of criminal activity.
>
>Legionaire's Disease first appeared to be a terror weapon when significant
>numbers of cases appeared at a convention center.  Later we learned that
>it was simply a virulent form of pneumonia that liked to live in standing
>water in building air conditioning systems.
>
>Time will tell whether this anthrax outbreak is something similar.  
>Clearly the timing is suspicious.
>
>One would think that a competent biological warfare attack against an
>office building with 300 people in it would kill more than one person.
>
>-- 
>Eric Michael Cordian 0+
>
Maybe this was an improvised attack made necessary after access to crop
dusters became more difficult. I hope this represents the limit of their
skills.




From declan at well.com  Tue Oct  9 11:20:05 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 14:20:05 -0400
Subject: White House appointment: Officer of Cyber-security
In-Reply-To: ; from
  xeni@xeni.net on Tue, Oct 09, 2001 at 09:40:50AM -0700
References: 
Message-ID: <20011009142005.A18392@cluebot.com>


LA Times reported it in today's paper:
http://www.latimes.com/technology/la-000080558oct09.story

Clarke is correct. He's a Clinton admin holdover. Rather hawkish:

http://www.politechbot.com/p-02337.html
>The gloom and doom sayers pointed out why the nation was on the verge
>of an "electronic Pearl Harbor." Chief among them was Richard Clarke,
>the National Security Council's "Dr. Strangelove" of cyber-security.

A letter that Tauzin sent Clarke last year:
http://www.politechbot.com/p-01680.html

Google will have more on Clarke. But this isn't that terribly
interesting, IMHO.

-Declan


On Tue, Oct 09, 2001 at 09:40:50AM -0700, Xeni Jardin wrote:
> White House press spokesman Ari Fleischer just announced pending
> appointment of the "Officer of Cyber-Security" to the Homeland Defense
> Team. I believe the appointee name was Roger Clarke, I may have the
> first name wrong. They're going to brief more on this in about 30
> minutes, and I'm sure more details will be evident by day's end.




From auto301094 at hushmail.com  Tue Oct  9 14:21:05 2001
From: auto301094 at hushmail.com (auto301094 at hushmail.com)
Date: Tue,  9 Oct 2001 14:21:05 -0700
Subject: White House appointment: Officer of Cyber-security 
Message-ID: <200110092121.f99LL5Z57380@mailserver1.hushmail.com>

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From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Tue Oct  9 14:21:37 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 14:21:37 -0700
Subject: Anthrax Case Number Three
In-Reply-To: <200110091723.f99HN4u16117@artifact.psychedelic.net>; from emc@artifact.psychedelic.net on Tue, Oct 09, 2001 at 10:23:04AM -0700
References: <200110091723.f99HN4u16117@artifact.psychedelic.net>
Message-ID: <20011009142137.C9746@navel.introspect>

on Tue, Oct 09, 2001 at 10:23:04AM -0700, Eric Cordian (emc at artifact.psychedelic.net) wrote:
> http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/31567.htm
> 
> The New York Post is reporting that a female librarian at American
> Media has pneumonia, and has tested positive for anthrax.
> 
> There's still no evidence, according to the FBI, that this anthrax
> outbreak was the result of criminal activity.
> 
> Legionaire's Disease first appeared to be a terror weapon when
> significant numbers of cases appeared at a convention center.  Later
> we learned that it was simply a virulent form of pneumonia that liked
> to live in standing water in building air conditioning systems.

Pneumonia is a symptom, not an infectuous agent, describing an
inflammation (and often accumulation of fluids) in the lungs.  Mortality
is high unless treated, frequently with antibiotics.  Infectious agents
include bacteria, viruses, and fungi.  Noninfectious causes include oil
aspiration, radiation, chemicals, vegetable dusts, and silo-filler's
disease (Source:  Taber's Cyclopedic Medical Dictionary). 

Legioniare's disease is caused by a bacterial infection:

    http://www.tdh.state.tx.us/ideas/factsht/legion.htm

    Legionellosis is an acute bacterial disease caused by Legionella
    pneumophila, a poorly staining, Gram-negative bacillus commonly
    found in water. Of the fourteen currently recognized serogroups of
    L. pneumophila bacteria, serogroup 1 is most commonly associated
    with outbreaks and sporadic cases of legionellosis. Legionellosis
    may occur in two primary forms: Legionnaire's disease and Pontiac
    fever. Legionnaire's disease is the most common form of
    legionellosis.

Peace.

-- 
Karsten M. Self         http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?              Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                    Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA!  http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                      http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html
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From declan at well.com  Tue Oct  9 11:29:08 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 14:29:08 -0400
Subject: Talking to the Press Considered Harmful
In-Reply-To: <63E073AE-BCD8-11D5-B568-0050E439C473@got.net>; from
  tcmay@got.net on Tue, Oct 09, 2001 at 10:09:25AM -0700
References: <3BC307C9.F300BDDE@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
  <63E073AE-BCD8-11D5-B568-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <20011009142908.B18392@cluebot.com>


On Tue, Oct 09, 2001 at 10:09:25AM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> I've had a couple of reporters try to reach me for "quotes." When I 
> turned them down, they replied along the lines of "But it'll only take a 
> minute of your time." All the worse, but they miss this point.

There is a tiny bit of room for negotiations. You could agree to do the
interview on condition that they read you back the quotes (or email you
back the quotes) that they're going to use in the article.

Note I'm not saying you should give interviews to the press -- none
of my business, really -- but there is a way to do it and avoid being
misquoted.

-Declan




From declan at well.com  Tue Oct  9 11:30:53 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 14:30:53 -0400
Subject: White House appointment: Officer of Cyber-security
In-Reply-To: <20011009142005.A18392@cluebot.com>; from declan@well.com
  on Tue, Oct 09, 2001 at 02:20:05PM -0400
References: 
  <20011009142005.A18392@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <20011009143053.C18392@cluebot.com>


Just to be clear: The fellow is Richard Clarke. Roger Clarke is the
Australian cryptographer/academic/engineer:
http://www.politechbot.com/p-02621.html

-Declan


On Tue, Oct 09, 2001 at 02:20:05PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> LA Times reported it in today's paper:
> http://www.latimes.com/technology/la-000080558oct09.story
> 
> Clarke is correct. He's a Clinton admin holdover. Rather hawkish:
> 
> http://www.politechbot.com/p-02337.html
> >The gloom and doom sayers pointed out why the nation was on the verge
> >of an "electronic Pearl Harbor." Chief among them was Richard Clarke,
> >the National Security Council's "Dr. Strangelove" of cyber-security.
> 
> A letter that Tauzin sent Clarke last year:
> http://www.politechbot.com/p-01680.html
> 
> Google will have more on Clarke. But this isn't that terribly
> interesting, IMHO.
> 
> -Declan
> 
> 
> On Tue, Oct 09, 2001 at 09:40:50AM -0700, Xeni Jardin wrote:
> > White House press spokesman Ari Fleischer just announced pending
> > appointment of the "Officer of Cyber-Security" to the Homeland Defense
> > Team. I believe the appointee name was Roger Clarke, I may have the
> > first name wrong. They're going to brief more on this in about 30
> > minutes, and I'm sure more details will be evident by day's end.




From fogstorm at mac.com  Tue Oct  9 14:39:26 2001
From: fogstorm at mac.com (FogStorm)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 14:39:26 -0700
Subject: Anthrax Case Number Three
In-Reply-To: <200110091723.f99HN4u16117@artifact.psychedelic.net>
Message-ID: <200110092130.f99LU9n29006@smtp-out.mac.com>


On Tuesday, October 9, 2001, at 10:23  AM, Eric Cordian wrote:

> One would think that a competent biological warfare attack against an
> office building with 300 people in it would kill more than one person.

Maybe they're just starting to get real world operational experience in 
bio-warfare. Their first attack on the WTC was amazingly incompetent the 
second worked all to well. If this is in fact an attack I expect they'll 
study the outcome and try to improve their delivery methodology.




From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Tue Oct  9 14:43:55 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 14:43:55 -0700
Subject: DC Metro spray bottle scuffle (was Re: More biochem terror?)
In-Reply-To: <3BC30E1F.23777.139EE09@localhost>; from roy@scytale.com on
  Tue, Oct 09, 2001 at 02:47:59PM -0500
References: <3BC30E1F.23777.139EE09@localhost>
Message-ID: <20011009144355.D9746@navel.introspect>


on Tue, Oct 09, 2001 at 02:47:59PM -0500, Roy M. Silvernail (roy at scytale.com)
wrote:
>
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20011009/aponline131952_000.htm
>
> Possible chem or bioagent involved.  Not many details yet.

Let's try to post with some specificity as to location and details,
subject updated.

NPR was reporting this at ~12 noon PDT, describing the fluid as perfume,
with no known BioChem agents detected.  Reactions were described, note
that placebo effect is likely to be high.

Peace.

--
Karsten M. Self         http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?              Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                    Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA!  http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                      http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]




From roy at scytale.com  Tue Oct  9 12:47:59 2001
From: roy at scytale.com (Roy M. Silvernail)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 14:47:59 -0500
Subject: More biochem terror?
Message-ID: <3BC30E1F.23777.139EE09@localhost>


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20011009/aponline131952_000.htm

Possible chem or bioagent involved.  Not many details yet.
--
Roy M. Silvernail
Proprietor, scytale.com
roy at scytale.com




From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Tue Oct  9 14:52:56 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 14:52:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Anthrax Case Number Three
In-Reply-To:  from "j eric
  townsend" at Oct 09, 2001 12:50:52 PM
Message-ID: <200110092152.f99LqvV16504@artifact.psychedelic.net>


jet writes:

> CNN was reporting the tests were negative around 1130am pst.

> They also reported that the FBI had interviewed and cleared the 
> intern.  CNN claims they have also interviewed the intern and believe 
> him not to be involved.

The Jennifer Lopez love letter with the "white soapy substance" has also
been exonerated.

This is beginning to look more and more like a natural occurrence.  
Perhaps they were sorting goat hides in the mailroom. :/

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Tue Oct  9 07:01:08 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 15:01:08 +0100
Subject: Let's Attack The Irish White Christian Terroroists...
References: <200110080029.RAA20486@smtpout.mac.com>
  
Message-ID: <3BC30324.51793D1B@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


In general the provisional IRA (*not* the same people as the "real IRA",
who of course aren't) have given warnings when bombing what they would
regard as "civilian" targets, though not against the British military or
people they see as "collaborators" in Ireland.  There have been 3
explosions near buildings I've worked in, and in each case there were
police and firefighters there already. The Omagh business was quite
different and done by different people.

Steve Mynott wrote:
> 
> FogStorm  writes:
> 
> > On Sunday, October 7, 2001, at 04:53  PM, jamesd at echeque.com wrote:
> >
> > > On 7 Oct 2001, at 12:24, CJ Parker wrote:
> > >> Of course we're not attacking a Religion or a Country's
> > >> 'people'... So let's prove it by launching Air Strikes
> > >> against the Irish Republican Army Terrorists and the Irish
> > >> Government entities that give them aid and support.  Lets
> > >> launch Air Strikes against the homes and families of the
> > >> SeanPennSeanFeind Irish Politicians who support terroroism.
> > >
> > > The IRA did not kill six thousand US civilians in a terrorist
> > > attack.
> >
> > IIRC when the IRA attacks economic infrastructure targets they generally
> > phone in a warning far enough in advance that the area can be evacuated.
> 
> Myth.
> 
> 29 people were killed in an real IRA bombing in Omagh in 1998. This
> was a shopping High Street full of people.
> 
> The warning given was incorrect and _increased_ the number of deaths
> because the terrorists said, probably on purpose, the wrong end of the
> street and the people were moved towards the bomb.
> 
> --
> 1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk
> 
>     "no man or group of men shall aggress upon the person or property of anyone
> else."  -- murray n. rothbard




From citizenq at hushmail.com  Tue Oct  9 15:05:11 2001
From: citizenq at hushmail.com (citizenq at hushmail.com)
Date: Tue,  9 Oct 2001 15:05:11 -0700
Subject: null liquid in DC (DC Metro spray bottle scuffle)
Message-ID: <200110092205.f99M5Bq90377@mailserver1.hushmail.com>


AOL-TV reports that chemical effects in DC subway were apparently from the pepper spray used to subdue the assailant with the spray bottle of null liquid. no agent of chem, bio or radiological effect found.




From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Tue Oct  9 15:16:26 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 15:16:26 -0700
Subject: Fwd: [free-sklyarov] Fwd: Smell Test for a Certain Unconfirmed
  Meeting Report
Message-ID: <20011009151626.A12663@navel.introspect>


Following post calls to question the legitimacy of the Cryptome RIAA
meeting report.  Others have expressed doubts as well.  I don't agree
with most of its points (see free-sklyarov archives for my response),
but would appreciate back-propogation to point of origin for response.

John, anything you can do?

on Tue, Oct 09, 2001 at 02:16:20PM -0400, Seth Johnson
(seth.johnson at realmeasures.dyndns.org) wrote:
>
> (Forwarded from p2p-legal list)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: hal at finney.org
> Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 10:38:05 -0700
>
> This report fails the "smell test".  It sounds like the quotes have at
> least been doctored to provide red meat to the opposition.
>
>
> > "The failure of the CPRM specification to be applied to computer
> > hard drives was a giant step back for the publishing, music, and
> > entertainment industry, and we will work to develop a new
> > specification that accomplishes what CPRM would have done."
>
> CPRM was never intended to be applied to computer hard drives.  It was
> for removable media.  The reason it was added to the spec in question
> was for support of Compact Flash drives, which are accessed via the
> ATA hard disk spec but which are removable.
>
> There was considerable debate about this point at the time the
> accusations were made that it was part of a conspiracy.  IMO the
> defense won.  There were a lot of technical people involved in that
> committee who were not the conspiratorial type and they had a good
> explanation of what was involved.  The purpose of the CPRM spec was to
> allow writing the data encrypted on one drive and reading it back on a
> different drive which lacked the same encryption keys.  This is a
> technical complication which CPRM was designed to solve.  There is no
> need for this complexity if the data is being written and read on the
> same drive, as the accusers suggested, since the same keys would be
> available for both steps.
>
> See http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/archive/16300.html for a
> "response" article and you will see that the specific accusations
> about CPRM have been dropped altogether in favor of a general set of
> complaints about copy protection.
>
> Hence it is highly unlikely that Rosen would say that CPRM was
> intended for computer hard drives, but it feeds exactly the fears of
> the conspiracy theorists at whom this document is apparently aimed.
>
>
> > "Once we stem piracy, we will be able to raise prices in order to
> > regain lost profits from piracy."
>
> Again this is a highly improbable quote.  In the first place it is too
> obvious, everyone there would already have such thoughts in mind.  In
> the second place it can only hurt the group in the event that it was
> leaked out.  And in the third place it assumes that piracy is forcing
> them to keep prices down, which seems unlikely (although not
> impossible).
>
>
> > Sony's Heckler stated that, "Once consumers can no longer get free
> > music, they will have to buy the music in the formats we choose to
> > put out."
>
> Again, an unlikely thing to say unless the intention is to get
> consumers riled up.
>
>
> > Gerald Levin stated, "There has been an unconfirmed break in the DVD
> > audio encryption scheme in Russia. We cannot ignore this threat, as
> > DVD Audio represents the future of this company.  We will have to be
> > vigilant, and prosecute anyone who posts a program or source code to
> > defeat CPPM in an extremely expeditious manner."
>
> I'm not familiar with this.  What is DVD audio?  Are they distributing
> songs on DVD disks now?  And what about the well known decss DVD
> encryption breaking algorithm?  Doesn't that already retrive the audio
> stream?  Levin represented AOL Time Warner.  Do they really think that
> DVD audio is "the future of this company"?  It's a pretty big company
> to be betting its future on one unproven technology.
>
>
> > Paul England stated, "By tweaking hardware slightly, we can stem
> > content piracy by making software attacks a thing of the past."
>
> This seems technically unlikely and in a group like this which has
> been burned so often by broken copy protection schemes, it would seem
> strange that someone would make such a bald claim.  These people are
> not idiots and they would be highly skeptical that any such
> technological fixes could work.
>
> > One particularly disturbing fact is that Codex Data System's DIRT
> > software is supposed to be restricted to law enforcement agencies,
> > yet the RIAA, MPAA, and IFPI have all purchased it, and use it
> > routinely to monitor servers which are suspected of infringing
> > content, yet are password protected such as servers which require
> > one to sign up for a password account like hotline servers that have
> > no guest download.
>
> I don't know much about this but I'm skeptical that there is automated
> software to break into hotline servers.  Besides, those which have no
> guest downloads are used by only small groups, typically no more than
> a few dozen users, and are unlikely to be a significant threat to the
> RIAA.  They don't care that much about small scale piracy, it is the
> big systems which they want to shut down.
>
>
> All in all it looks like at least some of these quote have been
> manufactured or enhanced for political purposes.
>
> Hal Finney
>
> _______________________________________________
> p2p-legal mailing list
> p2p-legal at dtype.org
> http://dtype.org/mailman/listinfo/p2p-legal
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> free-sklyarov mailing list
> free-sklyarov at zork.net
> http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov

--
Karsten M. Self         http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?              Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                    Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA!  http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                      http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Tue Oct  9 07:20:57 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 15:20:57 +0100
Subject: Register on Anderson: "Times misquoted me - crypto expert"
References: 
Message-ID: <3BC307C9.F300BDDE@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Xeni Jardin wrote:
> 
> You gotta love those scribes at the Register--take this comment on UK
> tabloid frenzy over alleged stego-hijinks of OBL and crew:
> 
> "Since the Times' stablemates the Sun and the News of the World have
> allegedly been hiding news in pornographic content for several years,
> (although we've never found any news in either paper to substantiate
> that meme), the allegation doesn't surprise us. "

:-) 

The (London) Times is in a sad decline historical eminence as the paper
of record since it was taken over by Murdoch. It is basically run as a
loss-leader to preserve Murdoch's claim to respectability.  The Sun is
the archetypal contentless tabloid, where the methods of snide laddish
journalism developed in Scotland and Australia in the 1950s and early
60s were honed into a money-making behemoth in the 1970s before being
exported to the USA and other countries. Us Brits may not have invented
rock & roll but we perfected the populist tabloid headline. To be fair
the Sun has improved slightly in the past 4 or 5 years, but then it
could hardly have got worse. If it had become any more pornographic the
distributors would have moved it off the news shelves, if it had got any
more cynical and thuggish it would have lost many of its readers. 

Ross Anderson's letter to the times appeared on the UKcrypto list. Which
is archived, & therefore I guess crosspostable. Apologies in advance to
Ross if he didn't want to see it here. The stuff after the "=====" is
crossposted from UKcrypto.

The implication has to be that the Times is no longer a newspaper in
this context, but an instrument of government propaganda.

Ken Brown

==================================================

The Editor,
The Times,
Dear Sir:

In Friday's article, `Secrets concealed by software' [1], you quoted
me as saying that rather than using steganography, it was `likely that
they [al-Qaida] sent thousands of innocent messages along with their
live orders, so that the secret information was missed.'

Your claim is untrue. I did not say that.

Your reporter called me and told me he had had a briefing from the
security services that al-Qaida were using steganography, that is,
hiding messages inside other objects such as MP3 files or images.  He
asked me whether I thought this was plausible. I replied that although
it was technically possible, it was unlikely; and that, according to
the FBI, the hijackers had sent ordinary emails in English or Arabic.
I explained that the main problem facing police communications
intelligence is traffic selection - knowing which of the billions of
emails to look at - rather than the possibility that the emails might
be encrypted or otherwise camouflaged. A competent opponent is
unlikely to draw attention to himself by being one of the few users of
encryption or anonymity services.

For just the same reason, he is unlikely to draw attention to himself
be sending unreasonably large numbers of messages as cover traffic.
Instead, he will hide his messages among the huge numbers of quite
innocuous messages that are sent anyway. Throwaway email accounts with
service providers such as hotmail are the natural way to do this.

Unfortunately, the story that bin Laden hides his secret messages in
pornographic images on the net appears to be too good for the tabloids
to pass up. It appears to have arisen from work done by Niels Provos
at the University of Michigan. In November last year, he wrote in a
technical report that he could find no evidence that messages were
being hidden in online images. By February this year, this had been
been conflated by USA Today, an American popular paper, with an
earlier FBI briefing on cryptography into a tale that terrorists could
be using steganography to hide messages [2]. Similar material has
surfaced in a number of the racier areas of the net [3], despite being
criticised a number of times by more technically informed writers [4].

It is unclear what national interest is served by security agencies
propagating this lurid urban myth. Perhaps the goal is to manufacture
an excuse for the failure to anticipate the events of November 11th.
Perhaps it is preparaing the ground for an attempt at bureaucratic
empire-building via Internet regulation, as a diversionary activity
from the much harder and less pleasant task of going after al-Qaida.
Perhaps the vision of bin Laden as cryptic pornographer is being spun
to create a subconscious link, in the public mind, with the scare
stories about child pornography that were used before September 11th
to justify government plans for greater Internet regulation.

Whatever the security services' motive, it is quite unclear to me why
a `quality newspaper' should have run this story, even after its
technical and operational implausibility were explained to you in
detail (see also `Al-Qaeda hid coded messages on porn websites' [5]).

Could you kindly publish this letter as a correction.

Yours Faithfully

Ross Anderson
Reader in Security Engineering
University of Cambridge

[1] http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2001340010-2001345085,00.html
[2] http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/2001-02-05-binladen.htm
[3] http://www.feedmag.com/templates/printer.php3?a_id=1624
[4] http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,41658,00.html
[5] http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2001340010-2001345211,00.html

==================================================




From business1 at tangfeng.org  Tue Oct  9 00:22:38 2001
From: business1 at tangfeng.org (business1 at tangfeng.org)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 15:22:38 +0800
Subject: Beijing Tangfeng Culture Exchange Centre
Message-ID: <200110090722.AAA02310@toad.com>


Xiu Yuan
Name: Beijing Tangfeng Culture Exchange Centre
Address: No.210, Building 2, Party School of Beijing Municipal Government 
         Committee,No.6 Chegongzhuang Street, 
         Xicheng District,Beijing, 
         China.
Tel: 86-10-6800-1452      86-10-6800--3112
Fax: 86-10-6800-1452
Mobile Tel:13661361402
Homepage: Http://www.Tangfeng.org
E-mail:Webmaster: postmaster at tangfeng.org
       VIP customers service: office at tangfeng.org
       Business customers service: business1 at tangfeng.org
                                   business2 at tangfeng.org
                                   xiuyuan at 263.net.cn
                                   xiuyuan at tangfeng.org

Dear Sir or Madam,
     Succeed!Hope!Ambition!
     Everybody who wants to do business in China,please contact with us .Here has a 1,200,000,000 population,here has a wide market.With the development of economy and reformation ,there are too many opportunities in China.You know,China has succeeded in applying for holding the 2008 Olympic Game.In the coming seven years,China must be the golden point in the world.It is full of competition in the 21th century.The international trade would be the large tendency.Mutual support and mutual aid is very necessary.Who can seize the chance ahead,who would be succeed.China is about to enter the WTO,then China will exert the enormous potential power.Welcome to invest in China.Welcome to cooperate with T&F.It is mutual beneficial for you and me.
    T&F provides a variety of investment advisory services and status inquiry services in China.Over a long period,T&F have developed and maintained  cooperative working relationships with a large number of government agencies in China.Our reports on credit inquiry and information of every internal industry or commerce business, including registration of corporation, history of corporation.There are many specialists of business investigation, specialised economists, and investigating and administrative staffs constitute a special and all-round investigation channels by us. At the same time, we should be pleased to hear if you would grant us the sole agency for China or you would be our agency for your district if you want.
    T&F will be provide a piece of accurate and credible investigation data, which you want about achieving nation-wide and comprehensive reference report forever! Please visit our Homepage: http://www.tangfeng.org , write or e-mail to T&F promptly, if you are interested in it. T&F shall be pleased to render you any further services.
    God will help those who help themselves.Waiting for your reply.





Very truly yours,
Beijing Tangfeng Culture Exchange Center
Xiu Yuan

 
 
 
 





From business1 at tangfeng.org  Tue Oct  9 00:22:39 2001
From: business1 at tangfeng.org (business1 at tangfeng.org)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 15:22:39 +0800
Subject: Beijing Tangfeng Culture Exchange Centre
Message-ID: <200110090725.CAA11579@einstein.ssz.com>


Xiu Yuan
Name: Beijing Tangfeng Culture Exchange Centre
Address: No.210, Building 2, Party School of Beijing Municipal Government 
         Committee,No.6 Chegongzhuang Street, 
         Xicheng District,Beijing, 
         China.
Tel: 86-10-6800-1452      86-10-6800--3112
Fax: 86-10-6800-1452
Mobile Tel:13661361402
Homepage: Http://www.Tangfeng.org
E-mail:Webmaster: postmaster at tangfeng.org
       VIP customers service: office at tangfeng.org
       Business customers service: business1 at tangfeng.org
                                   business2 at tangfeng.org
                                   xiuyuan at 263.net.cn
                                   xiuyuan at tangfeng.org

Dear Sir or Madam,
     Succeed!Hope!Ambition!
     Everybody who wants to do business in China,please contact with us .Here has a 1,200,000,000 population,here has a wide market.With the development of economy and reformation ,there are too many opportunities in China.You know,China has succeeded in applying for holding the 2008 Olympic Game.In the coming seven years,China must be the golden point in the world.It is full of competition in the 21th century.The international trade would be the large tendency.Mutual support and mutual aid is very necessary.Who can seize the chance ahead,who would be succeed.China is about to enter the WTO,then China will exert the enormous potential power.Welcome to invest in China.Welcome to cooperate with T&F.It is mutual beneficial for you and me.
    T&F provides a variety of investment advisory services and status inquiry services in China.Over a long period,T&F have developed and maintained  cooperative working relationships with a large number of government agencies in China.Our reports on credit inquiry and information of every internal industry or commerce business, including registration of corporation, history of corporation.There are many specialists of business investigation, specialised economists, and investigating and administrative staffs constitute a special and all-round investigation channels by us. At the same time, we should be pleased to hear if you would grant us the sole agency for China or you would be our agency for your district if you want.
    T&F will be provide a piece of accurate and credible investigation data, which you want about achieving nation-wide and comprehensive reference report forever! Please visit our Homepage: http://www.tangfeng.org , write or e-mail to T&F promptly, if you are interested in it. T&F shall be pleased to render you any further services.
    God will help those who help themselves.Waiting for your reply.





Very truly yours,
Beijing Tangfeng Culture Exchange Center
Xiu Yuan

 
 
 
 





From steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk  Tue Oct  9 08:30:44 2001
From: steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk (Steve Mynott)
Date: 09 Oct 2001 15:30:44 +0000
Subject: Let's Attack The Irish White Christian Terroroists...
In-Reply-To: "Tolan Blundell"'s message of "Mon, 8 Oct 2001 13:05:03 +0100"
References: 
Message-ID: 


"Tolan Blundell"  writes:

> The bombing in Omagh was attributed to the 'Real IRA' a breakaway group who
> I believe are generally considered to be more hard line than IRA.
> 
> As far as I understand it they are not the same organisation.

What you mean by the IRA is probably the Provisional IRA.

The Official IRA (Marxist and known as the "stickies") itself has been
defunct since the early 1970s and PIRA was formed by hardliners
leaving OIRA.

The Real IRA has been formed by hardliners leaving PIRA.

If history repeats itself then most people will probably end up
refering to RIRA as IRA anyway, since the distinction between these
organisations will probably be of little interest to the family of
someone killed.

(There are another republician terrorist groups such as the INLA as well)

-- 
1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk
    
    i never think of the future. it comes soon enough. --albert einstein




From steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk  Tue Oct  9 08:42:35 2001
From: steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk (Steve Mynott)
Date: 09 Oct 2001 15:42:35 +0000
Subject: Let's Attack The Irish White Christian Terroroists...
In-Reply-To: Ken Brown's message of "Tue, 09 Oct 2001 15:01:08 +0100"
References: <200110080029.RAA20486@smtpout.mac.com>
   <3BC30324.51793D1B@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: 


Ken Brown  writes:

> In general the provisional IRA (*not* the same people as the "real IRA",
> who of course aren't) have given warnings when bombing what they would
> regard as "civilian" targets, though not against the British military or
> people they see as "collaborators" in Ireland.  There have been 3
> explosions near buildings I've worked in, and in each case there were
> police and firefighters there already. The Omagh business was quite
> different and done by different people.

It's the same people.  

The former quartermaster of PIRA Mickey McKevitt is currently the RIRA
leader.

PIRA also has had a history of fake and hoax warnings as well as a
lack of central control of their "Active Service Units".

"Most Real IRA members are former IRA" and "suspected of receiving
funds from sympathizers in the United States."



-- 
1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk

    the surest protection against temptation is cowardice.
        -- mark twain




From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Tue Oct  9 15:44:12 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 15:44:12 -0700
Subject: Anthrax Case Number Three
In-Reply-To: <200110092152.f99LqvV16504@artifact.psychedelic.net>; from
  emc@artifact.psychedelic.net on Tue, Oct 09, 2001 at 02:52:56PM -0700
References: 
  <200110092152.f99LqvV16504@artifact.psychedelic.net>
Message-ID: <20011009154412.A13133@navel.introspect>


on Tue, Oct 09, 2001 at 02:52:56PM -0700, Eric Cordian
(emc at artifact.psychedelic.net) wrote:
> jet writes:
>
> > CNN was reporting the tests were negative around 1130am pst.
>
> > They also reported that the FBI had interviewed and cleared the
> > intern.  CNN claims they have also interviewed the intern and believe
> > him not to be involved.
>
> The Jennifer Lopez love letter with the "white soapy substance" has also
> been exonerated.

Reference?  I'm listening to the News Hour w/ Jim Lehrer where current
commentary includes the letter.

Peace.

--
Karsten M. Self         http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?              Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                    Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA!  http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                      http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]




From horns at ipjur.com  Tue Oct  9 06:49:51 2001
From: horns at ipjur.com (Axel H Horns)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 15:49:51 +0200
Subject: [FYI] Dutch Government wants to regulate strong cryptography
Message-ID: 

http://www.heise.de/tp/english/inhalt/te/9763/1.html
----------------------------- CUT ---------------------------------
Dutch Government wants to regulate strong cryptography
Jelle van Buuren 09.10.2001

Action plan to combat terrorism targets modern communication
technologies

The Dutch Government announced Friday it wants to regulate the public
use of strong cryptography. The regulation of cryptography is one of
the measures the government is proposing in its action plan to
combat terrorism.

[...]
----------------------------- CUT ---------------------------------




From horns at ipjur.com  Tue Oct  9 06:49:51 2001
From: horns at ipjur.com (Axel H Horns)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 15:49:51 +0200
Subject: [FYI] Dutch Government wants to regulate strong cryptography
Message-ID: 


http://www.heise.de/tp/english/inhalt/te/9763/1.html


----------------------------- CUT ---------------------------------


Dutch Government wants to regulate strong cryptography


Jelle van Buuren   09.10.2001


Action plan to combat terrorism targets modern communication
technologies


The Dutch Government announced Friday it wants to regulate the public
use of strong cryptography. The regulation of cryptography is one of
the measures the government is proposing in its  action plan to
combat terrorism.


[...]


----------------------------- CUT ---------------------------------




From steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk  Tue Oct  9 08:54:20 2001
From: steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk (Steve Mynott)
Date: 09 Oct 2001 15:54:20 +0000
Subject: Register on Anderson: "Times misquoted me - crypto expert"
In-Reply-To: Ken Brown's message of "Tue, 09 Oct 2001 15:20:57 +0100"
References: 
  <3BC307C9.F300BDDE@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: 


Ken Brown  writes:

> The (London) Times is in a sad decline historical eminence as the paper
> of record since it was taken over by Murdoch. It is basically run as a

It was in decline for years before it was taken over by Murdoch and
the circulation has increased greatly under his ownership.

Murdoch revitalised the entire UK newspaper industry by destroying the
stranglehold of the print unions who had prevented the production of
The Times for several months in the late 1970s.

Print unions also at this time had censored newspapers by refusing to
print articles they didn't like.

> The implication has to be that the Times is no longer a newspaper in
> this context, but an instrument of government propaganda.

The Times behaved poorly in this matter but I don't think it is an
instrument of government propaganda.  

Not in the sense the BBC is.

-- 
1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk
    
    she came from planet claire/i knew she came from there




From dbob at semtex.com  Tue Oct  9 15:57:21 2001
From: dbob at semtex.com (Dynamite Bob)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 15:57:21 -0700
Subject: Do not say where Mr. Happy Fun FBI Agent lives
Message-ID: <3BC380D1.16203A71@semtex.com>


The FBI's Gore counters that Nasser, who was not arrested, crossed the
line. "He made a remark insinuating he knew where the agent lived,
which was taken as a threat and not well-received," Gore said.





"Sometimes-Hostile Scrutiny Difficult for San Diego's Muslim
Community"

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/state/la-000079572oct05.story?coll=la%2Dnews%2Dstate




From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Tue Oct  9 16:14:11 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 16:14:11 -0700
Subject: Who wants to be a millionaire
In-Reply-To: <3BBC6E18.A7DE15FB@acmenet.net>; from sfurlong@acmenet.net
  on Thu, Oct 04, 2001 at 10:11:36AM -0400
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20011005003006.00a19ca0@pop.useoz.com>
  <3BBC6E18.A7DE15FB@acmenet.net>
Message-ID: <20011009161411.A13668@navel.introspect>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
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Type: application/pgp
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From dbob at semtex.com  Tue Oct  9 16:37:41 2001
From: dbob at semtex.com (Dynamite Bob)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 16:37:41 -0700
Subject: Domestic Surveillance: stills from video 
Message-ID: <3BC38A45.F7132B00@semtex.com>


http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-000080591oct09.story?coll=la%2Dnews%2Da%5Fsection

Still images can be derived from many video frames
with better resolution than you think.





BOSTON -- Like so many Americans, 
Steve Hill was appalled when he saw 
newspaper reprints of two World Trade 
Center terrorists as they passed through 
airport security the morning of Sept. 11.

                                The sight of Mohamed Atta and Waleed 
                                M. Alshehri as captured on a video 
                                camera in Portland, Maine, was shocking 
                                enough. But Hill had another, deeply 
                                visceral reaction.

                                "Professional pride," he explained. "I 
                                saw these rotten-looking images in the 
                                newspaper, and thought, 'We can do 
                                better.' " So he called the Boston FBI
and 
                                offered to install--for free--his
company's 
                                software that clarifies visual images. 
                                Salient Stills is a small start-up, and 
                                when shareholders and directors winced 
                                at about $20,000 worth of corporate 
                                altruism, Hill reminded them that, since 
                                the Sept. 11 attacks, Americans have 
                                opened their hearts and their 
                                pocketbooks. Hill figured Salient could
at 
                                least pony up their pixels.

                                "So many people in the country right now 
                                are feeling, 'I could go beat up those 
                                terrorists,' " Hill said. "It was sort
of the 
                                same idea."

                                The weapon the 10-person enterprise 
                                supplied the local FBI is a technique
for 
                                clarifying moving images from videotape. 
                                Reproduced as still photographs, video 
                                images tend to be grainy. Subtleties 
                                vanish. Facial features and details such
as 
                                license plate imprints are hard to 
                                distinguish.

                                "Many years ago"--in 1990, Laura 
                                Teodosio said--the challenge of 
                                transforming a moving medium into a
still 
                                image with precise resolution became the 
                                subject of her master's thesis at MIT. 
                                Working at the university's famed Media 
                                Lab--where advanced technology finds 
                                practical applications--Teodosio 
                                developed a software system she called 
                                videoFOCUS. Its purpose was "temporal 
                                condensation," essentially squeezing a 
                                series of moving images into a legible 
                                print.

                                Her signature effort was a glorious 
                                portrait of cellist Yo-Yo Ma, sawing 
                                away at a concert, yet absolutely still
in 
                                Teodosio's finished image. She also 
                                produced a clear likeness of pitcher 
                                Roger Clemens with his legendary 
                                fastball streaming sequentially
overhead. 
                                Neither endeavor seemed destined for 
                                widespread appreciation.

                                "But as it turned out, there was a side 
                                effect," said Teodosio, 37. "We wound up 
                                getting video frames that were higher 
                                quality than the original."

                                The 3-year-old company's name was 
                                taken from Teodosio's thesis, which 
                                posited that "you take the salient
features 
                                from each frame" to create a more 
                                cohesive image.

                                Newspapers were Salient's first target 
                                audience. Teodosio's product was born 
                                under the aegis of a group called "news 
                                and the future," MIT techies seeking
novel 
                                avenues to interact with news 
                                information.

                                Though USA Today and the New York 
                                Times snapped up a Salient system that 
                                enhanced the translation of video images 
                                to still photos, others were
uncomfortable 
                                because the process involves combining 
                                pixels--tiny dots that make up any image 
                                on film or videotape--from several 
                                sequential frames. The word "composite" 
                                strikes fear in the souls of media
purists.

                                But Salient CEO Hill, a 52-year-old 
                                former book publisher, persevered,
noting 
                                that "every camera is moving, even if it
is 
                                affixed to a tripod." His firm's 
                                technology--in use on a trial basis at
the 
                                Los Angeles Times--captures common 
                                information from consecutive frames and 
                                "basically cleans up the dust," he said.

                                From news environments Salient made an 
                                unexpected transition into the world of 
                                security, Hill said. Every day, he said, 
                                most Americans unknowingly are 
                                videotaped a dozen times or more. Video 
                                cameras whir at banks, rental car 
                                agencies, convenience stores and, of 
                                course, airports.

                                But many mothers would not recognize 
                                their own children from the soupy images 
                                that result. The video cameras function 
                                mainly as deterrents, Hill said.

                                Late in June, however, the video system 
                                in a Boston pharmacy recorded a 
                                prescription drug theft. The incident,
one 
                                in a series of synthetic opiate
robberies 
                                that have plagued the area in recent 
                                months, received wide attention. Hill 
                                contacted the Boston police and offered 
                                to help refine the blurry images of the
man 
                                seen stealing OxyContin, a powerful 
                                painkiller.

                                A spokesman for Police Commissioner 
                                Paul Evans confirmed that the department 
                                is using the Salient technology. Hill
said 
                                his company also has sold the process to 
                                the Singapore defense force, and to the 
                                Carabinieri, Italy's paramilitary
national 
                                police force.

                                Boston FBI spokeswoman Gail 
                                Marcinkiewicz would not comment about 
                                whether the Salient technology is in use
at 
                                headquarters here.

                                But at Salient--a "little private
company" 
                                valued at $12 million to $15
million--Hill 
                                said the decision to help what he 
                                playfully called "an unnamed federal 
                                agency" stemmed from President Bush's 
                                entreaty to all Americans to aid in the 
                                investigation of the attacks. That plea, 
                                Hill said, may have had special 
                                resonance in Boston, where terrorists 
                                boarded the two planes that crashed into 
                                the twin towers.

                                "I definitely think we're feeling real
guilt 
                                here," he said. "We let them through.
They 
                                were hanging around here. They figured
it 
                                was easy pickings here, and they were 
                                right."

                                The Portland airport security video is 
                                almost incidental to the investigation
at 
                                this point, Hill said. Both terrorists
are 
                                dead.

                                "But they have a lot of different images
of 
                                a lot of different things. There's a lot 
                                going on. I can say this: The federal 
                                agency is devoting an enormous amount of 
                                resources to this process."




From dbob at semtex.com  Tue Oct  9 16:50:40 2001
From: dbob at semtex.com (Dynamite Bob)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 16:50:40 -0700
Subject: There was a day when we would call it kidnapping,
Message-ID: <3BC38D50.EB82A634@semtex.com>


http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/280/nation/US_Egypt_raids_caught_militants+.shtml

Story on US role in kidnapping Moslems, and how this may have motivated
Al Qaeda's blowback.  No mention of (since ruled illegal by US
courts) kidnapping of mexican physician by DEA goons.




From wolf at priori.net  Tue Oct  9 17:07:04 2001
From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 17:07:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Who wants to be a millionaire
In-Reply-To: <20011009161411.A13668@navel.introspect>
Message-ID: 


On Tue, 9 Oct 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote:

> > Is there any way to solve this transaction problem without a
> > mutually-trusted third party?
>
> Jim Bell's Assasination Protocol:
>
>     http://zolatimes.com/v2.26/jimbell.htm
>
> Peace

Oh, the irony.

-MW-




From dbob at semtex.com  Tue Oct  9 17:08:24 2001
From: dbob at semtex.com (Dynamite Bob)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 17:08:24 -0700
Subject: Domestic Surveillance: stills from video
Message-ID: <20011009170824.A13983@navel.introspect>


[Reformatted for legibility.  Please take the few moments required to
ensure materials submitted are readable.  KMSelf]

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-000080591oct09.story?coll=la%2Dnews%2Da%5Fsection

Still images can be derived from many video frames
with better resolution than you think.





    BOSTON -- Like so many Americans, Steve Hill was appalled when he
    saw newspaper reprints of two World Trade Center terrorists as they
    passed through airport security the morning of Sept. 11.

    The sight of Mohamed Atta and Waleed M. Alshehri as captured on a
    video camera in Portland, Maine, was shocking enough. But Hill had
    another, deeply visceral reaction.

    "Professional pride," he explained. "I saw these rotten-looking
    images in the newspaper, and thought, 'We can do better.' " So he
    called the Boston FBI and offered to install--for free--his
    company's software that clarifies visual images.  Salient Stills is
    a small start-up, and when shareholders and directors winced at
    about $20,000 worth of corporate altruism, Hill reminded them that,
    since the Sept. 11 attacks, Americans have opened their hearts and
    their pocketbooks. Hill figured Salient could at least pony up their
    pixels.

    "So many people in the country right now are feeling, 'I could go
    beat up those terrorists,' " Hill said. "It was sort of the same
    idea."

    The weapon the 10-person enterprise supplied the local FBI is a
    technique for clarifying moving images from videotape.  Reproduced
    as still photographs, video images tend to be grainy. Subtleties
    vanish. Facial features and details such as license plate imprints
    are hard to distinguish.

    "Many years ago"--in 1990, Laura Teodosio said--the challenge of
    transforming a moving medium into a still image with precise
    resolution became the subject of her master's thesis at MIT.
    Working at the university's famed Media Lab--where advanced
    technology finds practical applications--Teodosio developed a
    software system she called videoFOCUS. Its purpose was "temporal
    condensation," essentially squeezing a series of moving images into
    a legible print.

    Her signature effort was a glorious portrait of cellist Yo-Yo Ma,
    sawing away at a concert, yet absolutely still in Teodosio's
    finished image. She also produced a clear likeness of pitcher Roger
    Clemens with his legendary fastball streaming sequentially overhead.
    Neither endeavor seemed destined for widespread appreciation.

    "But as it turned out, there was a side effect," said Teodosio, 37.
    "We wound up getting video frames that were higher quality than the
    original."

    The 3-year-old company's name was taken from Teodosio's thesis,
    which posited that "you take the salient features from each frame"
    to create a more cohesive image.

    Newspapers were Salient's first target audience. Teodosio's product
    was born under the aegis of a group called "news and the future,"
    MIT techies seeking novel avenues to interact with news information.

    Though USA Today and the New York Times snapped up a Salient system
    that enhanced the translation of video images to still photos,
    others were uncomfortable because the process involves combining
    pixels--tiny dots that make up any image on film or videotape--from
    several sequential frames. The word "composite" strikes fear in the
    souls of media purists.

    But Salient CEO Hill, a 52-year-old former book publisher,
    persevered, noting that "every camera is moving, even if it is
    affixed to a tripod." His firm's technology--in use on a trial basis
    at the Los Angeles Times--captures common information from
    consecutive frames and "basically cleans up the dust," he said.

    From news environments Salient made an unexpected transition into
    the world of security, Hill said. Every day, he said, most Americans
    unknowingly are videotaped a dozen times or more. Video cameras whir
    at banks, rental car agencies, convenience stores and, of course,
    airports.

    But many mothers would not recognize their own children from the
    soupy images that result. The video cameras function mainly as
    deterrents, Hill said.

    Late in June, however, the video system in a Boston pharmacy
    recorded a prescription drug theft. The incident, one in a series of
    synthetic opiate robberies that have plagued the area in recent
    months, received wide attention. Hill contacted the Boston police
    and offered to help refine the blurry images of the man seen
    stealing OxyContin, a powerful painkiller.

    A spokesman for Police Commissioner Paul Evans confirmed that the
    department is using the Salient technology. Hill said his company
    also has sold the process to the Singapore defense force, and to the
    Carabinieri, Italy's paramilitary national police force.

    Boston FBI spokeswoman Gail Marcinkiewicz would not comment about
    whether the Salient technology is in use at headquarters here.

    But at Salient--a "little private company" valued at $12 million to
    $15 million--Hill said the decision to help what he playfully called
    "an unnamed federal agency" stemmed from President Bush's entreaty
    to all Americans to aid in the investigation of the attacks. That
    plea, Hill said, may have had special resonance in Boston, where
    terrorists boarded the two planes that crashed into the twin towers.

    "I definitely think we're feeling real guilt here," he said. "We let
    them through.  They were hanging around here. They figured it was
    easy pickings here, and they were right."

    The Portland airport security video is almost incidental to the
    investigation at this point, Hill said. Both terrorists are dead.

    "But they have a lot of different images of a lot of different
    things. There's a lot going on. I can say this: The federal agency
    is devoting an enormous amount of resources to this process."




From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Oct  9 15:11:02 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 17:11:02 -0500
Subject: Optical DSPs promise tera-ops performance
Message-ID: <3BC375F6.8FF8224D@ssz.com>


http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20011008S0024

To go along with this, a new compensation mechanism allows 2x fiber
capacity. It
was announced in the last few days.


-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From tolan at citipages.net  Tue Oct  9 09:14:06 2001
From: tolan at citipages.net (Tolan Blundell)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 17:14:06 +0100
Subject: Let's Attack The Irish White Christian Terroroists...
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


well corrected :)

tolan.
-----Original Message-----
From: steve at squack.com [mailto:steve at squack.com]On Behalf Of Steve
Mynott
Sent: 09 October 2001 16:31
To: Tolan Blundell
Cc: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
Subject: Re: Let's Attack The Irish White Christian Terroroists...


"Tolan Blundell"  writes:

> The bombing in Omagh was attributed to the 'Real IRA' a breakaway group
who
> I believe are generally considered to be more hard line than IRA.
>
> As far as I understand it they are not the same organisation.

What you mean by the IRA is probably the Provisional IRA.

The Official IRA (Marxist and known as the "stickies") itself has been
defunct since the early 1970s and PIRA was formed by hardliners
leaving OIRA.

The Real IRA has been formed by hardliners leaving PIRA.

If history repeats itself then most people will probably end up
refering to RIRA as IRA anyway, since the distinction between these
organisations will probably be of little interest to the family of
someone killed.

(There are another republician terrorist groups such as the INLA as well)

--
1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk

    i never think of the future. it comes soon enough. --albert einstein




From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Tue Oct  9 17:14:11 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 17:14:11 -0700
Subject: FBI utilizing supermarket club cards in profiling
Message-ID: <20011009171411.B13983@navel.introspect>


http://www.knoxville.com/kns/politics/article/0,1406,KNS_356_840058,00.html

    You are what you eat? Federal agents are tracking suspects tied to
    the Sept. 11 strikes through supermarket club cards that may give a
    hint of ethnic tastes. "Time was, this data was so disorganized
    nobody could make sense of it, but not anymore. They're looking for
    people based on their supermarket tastes," says consultant Larry
    Ponemon, head of the Privacy Council business consortium. "Trouble
    is, there's so much bad data out there, and how do your know if
    someone eats like a terrorist?" he asks.

Also (and source of above):

    http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/10/09/0033206
    What Do You Buy At The Grocery ... Punk?

Peace.

--
Karsten M. Self         http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?              Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                    Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA!  http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                      http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]




From sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com  Tue Oct  9 17:21:51 2001
From: sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com (sonofgomez709)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 17:21:51 -0700
Subject: Any Reason I Should NOT Killfile Choate? 
Message-ID: <004801c15121$90dda520$420da2cd@vaio>


Incognito Innominatus QueryPosited:
> Does he ever post anything worthwhile?

Canadian Customs thinks so. They kept me waiting at a border crossing
for 5 million hours while they photocopied printouts of his CPUNX emails
that I had in my possession.
I offered to testify that Choate was the Real [TM] author of the Federalist
Papers, which CanCustumsOffalSchills deemed to be hard evidence
of CriminalIntentOfSomeSortOrAnother, but they declined...

CJ Parker 
http://profiles.yahoo.com/sonofgomez709
http://www.technopagan.org/politics/xenix/
http://members.w-link.net/~sog/INDEX.HTM




From steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk  Tue Oct  9 10:24:48 2001
From: steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk (Steve Mynott)
Date: 09 Oct 2001 17:24:48 +0000
Subject: al Qaeda website?
In-Reply-To: "Lucky Green"'s message of "Mon, 8 Oct 2001 23:20:50 -0700"
References: 
Message-ID: 


"Lucky Green"  writes:

> Attempting to obtain information from primary sources, I have been trying to
> track down a bin Laden or al Qaeda website without any success. Does anybody
> on this list have a URL?



compare with



Every thought how bad the net would be if google went away?

-- 
1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk

ninety-ninety rule of project schedules:
        the first ninety percent of the task takes ninety percent of
the time, and the last ten percent takes the other ninety percent.




From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Tue Oct  9 17:38:01 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 17:38:01 -0700
Subject: Any Reason I Should NOT Killfile Choate?
In-Reply-To: ;
  from anonymous@mixmaster.nullify.org on Tue, Oct 09, 2001 at
  06:48:03PM -0500
References: 
Message-ID: <20011009173801.E13983@navel.introspect>


on Tue, Oct 09, 2001 at 06:48:03PM -0500, Incognito Innominatus
(anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org) wrote:
> Does he ever post anything worthwhile?

I'd appreciate at least a paragraph of context and subject line with
URLs.  Otherwise, his posts are useful.

Peace.

--
Karsten M. Self         http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?              Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                    Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA!  http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                      http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]




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From: guest at guest.com (=?GB2312?B?vajVvrrD18rUtL+0v7Syu7PUv/c=?=)
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Subject: =?GB2312?B?vajVvrrD18rUtL+0v7Syu7PUv/c=?=
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From tcmay at got.net  Tue Oct  9 18:17:56 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 18:17:56 -0700
Subject: Google and the Net
In-Reply-To: <910ab3ffda50b37fd079c10a14793d46@dizum.com>
Message-ID: 


On Tuesday, October 9, 2001, at 02:40 PM, Nomen Nescio wrote:

>>>> Steve Mynott[SMTP:steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk] wrote:
>>>> Every thought how bad the net would be if google went away?
>>>>
>>> Actually, us old timers remember what it was like before google,
>>
>> Hypertext in general is doubleplus good.
>>
>> I remember Gopher, Archie, and all of those crufty tools.
>
> You are all missing the point.  Google was being praised for its 
> specific
> feature of acting as an internet-wide cache of old versions of web 
> pages.
> Prior to 9/11 the page in question held inflammatory content praising
> bin Laden.  Now it's been pulled.  The google cache lets us see the
> previous version, thwarting the efforts of the page owner to hide his
> earlier sentiments.

I'm not "missing the point." I chose to talk about something else. Deal 
with it.


Fuck off.



--Tim May, Occupied America
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety 
deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759.




From honig at sprynet.com  Tue Oct  9 18:31:51 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 18:31:51 -0700
Subject: Talking to the Press Considered Harmful
In-Reply-To: <20011009142908.B18392@cluebot.com>
References: <63E073AE-BCD8-11D5-B568-0050E439C473@got.net>
  <3BC307C9.F300BDDE@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
  <63E073AE-BCD8-11D5-B568-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011009183151.009a4100@pop.sprynet.com>


At 02:29 PM 10/9/01 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>On Tue, Oct 09, 2001 at 10:09:25AM -0700, Tim May wrote:
>> I've had a couple of reporters try to reach me for "quotes." When I 
>> turned them down, they replied along the lines of "But it'll only take a 
>> minute of your time." All the worse, but they miss this point.
>
>There is a tiny bit of room for negotiations. You could agree to do the
>interview on condition that they read you back the quotes (or email you
>back the quotes) that they're going to use in the article.

This agreement isn't enforcable, is it?  Even if it were, by the time
you've sued them for
damage to your rep for misquoting, its too late.  

Cf Mischaracterization of Zimmermann and Anderson.  

Yes future search engines will look for retractions, as will diligent
historians, but those investing less effort will be misled.  Through
no fault of the person with the misquoted opinion.

It would be better for Tim (etc) to do a writeup, post it, and point
to it.  Then others could find the original and compare reporters'
more-widely-read interpretations.  If Q & A are useful, add the decent ones
to your site,
possibly after giving the reporter time to publish (if they help
generate content they have earned this; but your opinions shouldn't
be monopolized by the reporter if possible.)

We do this source checking normally, when a reporter is useful enough to
include a source URL
and makes far-out claims, even if we trust the reporter.  




From schear at lvcm.com  Tue Oct  9 18:33:16 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 18:33:16 -0700
Subject: Google and the Net
In-Reply-To: <910ab3ffda50b37fd079c10a14793d46@dizum.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011009183150.04c104a0@pop3.lvcm.com>


At 11:40 PM 10/9/2001 +0200, Nomen Nescio wrote:
>You are all missing the point.  Google was being praised for its specific
>feature of acting as an internet-wide cache of old versions of web pages.
>Prior to 9/11 the page in question held inflammatory content praising
>bin Laden.  Now it's been pulled.  The google cache lets us see the
>previous version, thwarting the efforts of the page owner to hide his
>earlier sentiments.
>
>Google thus serves as an honesty mechanism, holding people responsible
>for what they have said and making it more difficult for them to conceal
>revisions to their published opinions.
>
>All this old-fogey talk about "I remember the days before Google" is
>nothing but hot air.  Sure, things were harder before search engines;
>of course they were, but it's a trivial observation.  The point is that
>this often-unappreciated cacheing feature of search engines can have a
>powerful influence on the nature of the Web.
>
>It's unfortunate that we have to rely on Google.  Imagine an ongoing,
>distributed project to cache the web.  Volunteers could keep tabs on
>a subset of corporate and personal web pages and cache old versions
>when changes are made.  Rewriting history becomes that much harder.
>And it's certainly a better use of computers than seti at home.

This is actually an excellent application front end for a Mojo Nation type 
system, as the data is redundant and distributed.




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Tue Oct  9 18:42:20 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 18:42:20 -0700
Subject: Does he ever post anything worthwhile?
Message-ID: <3BC3A77C.8D0B3F10@lsil.com>


Sure. He watches lots of stuff and occasionally a link leads somewhere
interesting but the true value is in the humor of such classics as the
grounding and shielding thread from 1 or 2 years ago. Priceless.




From honig at sprynet.com  Tue Oct  9 18:42:25 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 18:42:25 -0700
Subject: Let's Attack The Irish White Christian Terroroists...
In-Reply-To: 
References: <"Tolan Blundell"'s message of "Mon, 8 Oct 2001 13:05:03  +0100">
 
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011009184225.009a21c0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 03:30 PM 10/9/01 +0000, Steve Mynott wrote:
>
>What you mean by the IRA is probably the Provisional IRA.
>
>The Official IRA ....
>
>The Real IRA ....
>
>(There are another republician terrorist groups such as the INLA as well)

Will someone tell them to cut it out?  That's what trademark
and other WIPO laws are for.  This name collision stuff has
gone too far.  I mean, which one of them is going to sue 
"IRAsucks.com" when that's registered?





 






  







From tbr at tabun.com  Tue Oct  9 18:45:00 2001
From: tbr at tabun.com (Tabla bin Rasa)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 18:45:00 -0700
Subject: Anthrax Case Number Three
Message-ID: <3BC3A81C.3FA18B63@tabun.com>


At 02:08 PM 10/9/01 -0700, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote:

>Maybe this was an improvised attack made necessary after access to crop

>dusters became more difficult. I hope this represents the limit of
their
>skills.

They still have to try out their chemistry skills.

No bathrooms in BART stations, now.  Terrorists won.




From anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org  Tue Oct  9 16:48:03 2001
From: anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org (Incognito Innominatus)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 18:48:03 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Any Reason I Should NOT Killfile Choate?
Message-ID: 


Does he ever post anything worthwhile?




From honig at sprynet.com  Tue Oct  9 18:50:40 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 18:50:40 -0700
Subject: Google and the Net
In-Reply-To: <910ab3ffda50b37fd079c10a14793d46@dizum.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011009185040.0099be20@pop.sprynet.com>


At 11:40 PM 10/9/01 +0200, Nomen Nescio wrote:
>Google thus serves as an honesty mechanism, holding people responsible
>for what they have said and making it more difficult for them to conceal
>revisions to their published opinions.
>
...
>
>It's unfortunate that we have to rely on Google.  Imagine an ongoing,
>distributed project to cache the web.  Volunteers could keep tabs on
>a subset of corporate and personal web pages and cache old versions
>when changes are made.  Rewriting history becomes that much harder.
>And it's certainly a better use of computers than seti at home.

Very nice analysis.

If you greatly reduce Google's speed of search, what kind of 
compression-gains can you get?   Imagine an archive which is
highly compressed [1] but used mostly to counter censorship.

[1] That JPGs etc. are already highly compressed means that
if you keep pictures, you won't gain as much by trading off
search speed for compression.




From keyser-soze at hushmail.com  Tue Oct  9 18:51:13 2001
From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com)
Date: Tue,  9 Oct 2001 18:51:13 -0700
Subject: Paper tigers (was: Re: Anthrax Case Number Three)
Message-ID: <200110100151.f9A1pDG25301@mailserver1.hushmail.com>


At 02:52 PM 10/9/2001 -0700, Eric Cordian wrote:
jet writes:

>> CNN was reporting the tests were negative around 1130am pst.

>> They also reported that the FBI had interviewed and cleared the 
>> intern.  CNN claims they have also interviewed the intern and believe 
>> him not to be involved.

>The Jennifer Lopez love letter with the "white soapy substance" has also
been exonerated.

>This is beginning to look more and more like a natural occurrence.  
Perhaps they were sorting goat hides in the mailroom. :/

Looks like you were right once again.




From tcmay at got.net  Tue Oct  9 18:51:41 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 18:51:41 -0700
Subject: Who wants to be a millionaire
In-Reply-To: <20011009161411.A13668@navel.introspect>
Message-ID: <59C27890-BD21-11D5-B568-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Tuesday, October 9, 2001, at 04:14 PM, Karsten M. Self wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> on Thu, Oct 04, 2001 at 10:11:36AM -0400, Steve Furlong 
> (sfurlong at acmenet.net)
> wrote:
>> mattd wrote:
>>>
>>> Bin laden demolitions has authorised me to offer you a once in a
>>> lifetime deal.
>>> 1 million dollars untracable digital cash will be paid to an
>>> account/s of your choice for enough intelligence to proceed with
>>> further superpower implosions.  Insider info preffered but not
>>> essential,leave packet online in freenet transient node...
>>
>> Is there any way to solve this transaction problem without a
>> mutually-trusted third party?
>
> Jim Bell's Assasination Protocol:
>
>     http://zolatimes.com/v2.26/jimbell.htm
>
> Peace

You do a disservice to crypto and our group by implying, even in a 
backhanded way, that Bell's "AP" system was or is in any way feasible.

Where's the true untraceable cash needed?

Please explain.


--Tim May




From tcmay at got.net  Tue Oct  9 19:09:27 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 19:09:27 -0700
Subject: Talking to the Press Considered Harmful
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011009183151.009a4100@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: 


On Tuesday, October 9, 2001, at 06:31 PM, David Honig wrote:

> At 02:29 PM 10/9/01 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>> On Tue, Oct 09, 2001 at 10:09:25AM -0700, Tim May wrote:
>>> I've had a couple of reporters try to reach me for "quotes." When I
>>> turned them down, they replied along the lines of "But it'll only 
>>> take a
>>> minute of your time." All the worse, but they miss this point.
>>
>> There is a tiny bit of room for negotiations. You could agree to do the
>> interview on condition that they read you back the quotes (or email you
>> back the quotes) that they're going to use in the article.
>
> This agreement isn't enforcable, is it?  Even if it were, by the time
> you've sued them for
> damage to your rep for misquoting, its too late.

You can always tell them that if they willfully and substantively 
misquote you, you will visit their home, wait until they are are away, 
kill their wife and children, wait until they return home, force them to 
the floor at gunpoint, put tape around their mouth and nylon tie wraps 
around their hands, let them see what has been done to their family, let 
them think about it for 10 minutes, then put tape over their nose and 
wait for them to suffocate.

The danger is in telling them. It may be best to not tell them, but then 
to carry out punishment some appropriate time later.

>
--Tim May, Corralitos, California
Quote of the Month: "It is said that there are no atheists in foxholes; 
perhaps there are no true libertarians in times of terrorist attacks." 
--Cathy Young, "Reason Magazine," both enemies of liberty.




From schear at cryptorights.org  Tue Oct  9 19:14:02 2001
From: schear at cryptorights.org (Steve Schear)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 19:14:02 -0700
Subject: Fwd: Dutch Government wants to regulate strong cryptography 
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011009191056.04bb7de0@pop3.lvcm.com>



From honig at sprynet.com  Tue Oct  9 19:20:38 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 19:20:38 -0700
Subject: Talking to the Press Considered Harmful
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20011009220302.00a70d10@mail.well.com>
References: <3.0.6.32.20011009183151.009a4100@pop.sprynet.com>
  <20011009142908.B18392@cluebot.com>
  <63E073AE-BCD8-11D5-B568-0050E439C473@got.net>
  <3BC307C9.F300BDDE@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
  <63E073AE-BCD8-11D5-B568-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011009192038.0097bab0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 10:04 PM 10/9/01 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>At 06:31 PM 10/9/01 -0700, David Honig wrote:
>>This agreement isn't enforcable, is it?  Even if it were, by the time
>>you've sued them for
>>damage to your rep for misquoting, its too late.
>
>Agreements similar to this that sources make with media organizations have 
>been held by courts to be enforceable, yes. I suspect this one would be too.
>
>Too late? How about damages.
>
>>It would be better for Tim (etc) to do a writeup, post it, and point
>>to it.  Then others could find the original and compare reporters'
>
>No, reporters will want to ask questions on the phone, or, more rarely, in 
>person for audio or video taping. (There are many good reasons for this.) 
>An essay by Tim isn't good enough for those reasons and also, frankly, for 
>more parochial reasons of "exclusivity."
>
>-Declan

Ok.  I was trying to use tech to solve a social problem.  

......
"As a mental experiment, lets go along with FBI director Freeh
and try to envisage what might ahve happened if those bombers had actually
succeeded in toppling both towers of New York's World Trade Center,
killing tens of thousands." --David Brin, _The Transparent Society_




From mean-green at hushmail.com  Tue Oct  9 19:20:48 2001
From: mean-green at hushmail.com (mean-green at hushmail.com)
Date: Tue,  9 Oct 2001 19:20:48 -0700
Subject: [FYI] Dutch Government wants to regulate strong cryptography
Message-ID: <200110100220.f9A2Kmu29462@mailserver1.hushmail.com>



From honig at sprynet.com  Tue Oct  9 19:25:50 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 19:25:50 -0700
Subject: Talking to the Press Considered Harmful
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3.0.6.32.20011009183151.009a4100@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011009192550.0099b260@pop.sprynet.com>


At 07:09 PM 10/9/01 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>
>You can always tell them that if they willfully and substantively 
>misquote you, you will visit their home, wait until they are are away, 
>kill their wife and children, wait until they return home, force them to 
>the floor at gunpoint, put tape around their mouth and nylon tie wraps 
>around their hands, let them see what has been done to their family, let 
>them think about it for 10 minutes, then put tape over their nose and 
>wait for them to suffocate.
>

Ah, channelling Keyzer-Soze now? 

Or wiretapping Janet Reno's fantasy life?

....
Good timing: the dude who flew his ultralight into the Statue of Liberty
while you could do that and not get a missile up your butt.




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Tue Oct  9 19:27:32 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 19:27:32 -0700
Subject: Any Reason I Should NOT Killfile Choate?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


"Incognito Innominatus" asked:

> Does he [Inchoate] ever post anything worthwhile?

Occasionally.  Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn now and then.


 S a n d y




From tcmay at got.net  Tue Oct  9 19:33:58 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 19:33:58 -0700
Subject: Talking to the Press Considered Harmful
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20011009220302.00a70d10@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <423F1008-BD27-11D5-B568-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Tuesday, October 9, 2001, at 07:04 PM, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> At 06:31 PM 10/9/01 -0700, David Honig wrote:
>> It would be better for Tim (etc) to do a writeup, post it, and point
>> to it.  Then others could find the original and compare reporters'
>
> No, reporters will want to ask questions on the phone, or, more rarely, 
> in person for audio or video taping. (There are many good reasons for 
> this.) An essay by Tim isn't good enough for those reasons and also, 
> frankly, for more parochial reasons of "exclusivity."

As the Deaf One used to say, "mega dittos."

When I used to give some interviews, or answer questions, essentially 
none of those who interviewed me had ever bothered to read anything I 
had written prior to the interview.

Every time I consent to an interview, I regret it. The most recent time 
was earlier this year for  a French journalist doing a piece on Freenet, 
Napster, peer-to-peer, Gnutellla, and related technologies. He contacted 
me by e-mail and said he wanted to get my comments on the significance 
of these technologies. I agreed and made myself available for his phone 
call. He promised he would send me a copy of the French magazine the 
piece was to run in.

Our interview lasted an hour. A frustrating hour, as he was not 
knowledgeable about crypto, anonymity, or political issues. "But 
wouldn't this interfere with police investigations?"

The worst was yet to come. He sent me e-mail saying his tape machine had 
somehow not been running, or something along these lines, and could I 
please do the interview _again_.

"Sigh."

I stupidly made myself available a second time. It was much worse. 
Apparently the implications of crypto anarchy had sunk in, and he spent 
most of the 45 minutes or so debating me about what "chaos" would mean. 
Including the old chestnut about "what would happen to taxes? Who would 
help the poor?" I tried to tell him about market economies, the 
ubiquitousness of anarchies all around us, Hayek, Friedman, etc., but it 
was clear these were all things he had never thought about.

(Sort of the way airheads like Cathy Young write for "Reason" without 
ever having thought about their alleged beliefs.)

This second interview went nowhere,  due to getting bogged down in his 
utter disbelief that anyone could advocate such "libertarian" ideas (I 
assume libertarian ideas have not taken root in France--they like the 
trappings of radicalism, but they are actually very bourgois.). I never 
received a copy from him of the magazine article, or any further e-mail 
communication, so I don't even know if it ever got published.

I hear the magazine business is going into a steep dive this year, 
especially after 911. Apparently not a lot of people are shelling out 
real money to buy most of the thousand or so junky mags. ("Oracle 8i 
World, the magazine for Oracle 8i consumer-units," "Interior 
Southwestern Homes, the design magazine for pueblo reconstruction 
advertising," "Lesbigay Travel, the monthly for active lesbigays")

If we can knock off "Reason" and "Wired," it'll have been a good year.



--Tim May, Citizen-unit of of the once free United States
" The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood 
of patriots & tyrants. "--Thomas Jefferson, 1787




From honig at sprynet.com  Tue Oct  9 19:34:43 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 19:34:43 -0700
Subject: Domestic Surveillance: stills from video
In-Reply-To: 
References: <20011009170824.A13983@navel.introspect>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011009193443.009a54e0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 09:26 PM 10/9/01 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
>On Tue, 9 Oct 2001, Dynamite Bob wrote:
>
>> [Reformatted for legibility.  Please take the few moments required to
>> ensure materials submitted are readable.  KMSelf]
>> 
>>
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-000080591oct09.story?co
ll=la%2Dnews%2Da%5Fsection
>> 
>> Still images can be derived from many video frames
>> with better resolution than you think.
>
>It's actually pretty standard.
>
>My 15 year old Amiga Video Toaster uses several frames to generate each
>still.
>
>It's common practive in astronomy to 'stack' multiple images in order to
>bring out detail. They can sometimes stack quite a few frames, 25+

I think the point is that the source frames were moving.  REquiring 
serious correlation to stack the right frames.  Quite different from
an earth-motion-compensated tracking telescope stacking frames.

If you are filming a nonmoving object you can get very large S/N by
accumulating frames.  If the object is moving its much harder --esp
if moving in 3D.  I once did some research programming for MD/researchers who
film Xray movies of clogged hearts (cineangiography at Cedar Sinai '90-93), 
who found better recognition of problems if you fixate the feature of
interest.  
Doing so automatically is nontrivial.
Similarly with the work described, e.g., Yo-yo cranking on the fiddle.





But your Toaster experience is correct.




 






  







From info at giganetstore.com  Tue Oct  9 11:35:06 2001
From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 19:35:06 +0100
Subject: Swatch@giganetstore.com
Message-ID: <0495206351809a1WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com>

  
Colecção Swatch
Outono/Inverno 2001
 
  
  
    
  
    
  

Ver mais relógios >>
 


Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site
http:\\www.giganetstore.com  , ir à edição
do seu registo e retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das nossas
promoções e novos serviços. 
 
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From sandfort at mindspring.com  Tue Oct  9 19:52:20 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 19:52:20 -0700
Subject: Any Reason I Should NOT Killfile Choate?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


Jimbo wrote:

> On Tue, 9 Oct 2001, Incognito Innominatus wrote:
>
> > Does he ever post anything worthwhile?
>
> You need permission? What a pozer.

Here's where that remedial reading course would really come in handy for
Inchoate.  He can't read plain English.  ('Course, that's hardly a news
flash.)  :'D


 S a n d y




From jya at pipeline.com  Tue Oct  9 19:55:42 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 19:55:42 -0700
Subject: Fwd: [free-sklyarov] Fwd: Smell Test for a Certain
  Unconfirmed  Meeting Report
In-Reply-To: <20011009151626.A12663@navel.introspect>
Message-ID: <200110100002.UAA12024@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>


We've asked the source to provide authentication for the RIAA
meeting, and asked as well The Register reporter who reported 
about the meeting on October 8 apparently based on a similar 
message. No answer to either request so far. We've added a 
note about authenticity to the file on Cryptome and are adding 
reader responses as well. Hal's will go there.

On person wrote that an alleged attendee of the meeting left the
organization cited a year ago. Another wrote that an attendee
was asked about the meeting who denied there was a
meeting.

Still, we've encountered disavowals and smoke in connection
with other controversial docs, so it's wait a while for now
and let folks decide for themselves -- our customary practice.

When Hilary Rosen or Senator Hollings responds that they
don't beat their mates then we'll have a definitive answer.




From declan at well.com  Tue Oct  9 17:04:07 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 20:04:07 -0400
Subject: Google and the Net
In-Reply-To: <910ab3ffda50b37fd079c10a14793d46@dizum.com>; from
  nobody@dizum.com on Tue, Oct 09, 2001 at 11:40:14PM +0200
References: <910ab3ffda50b37fd079c10a14793d46@dizum.com>
Message-ID: <20011009200407.A30494@cluebot.com>


On Tue, Oct 09, 2001 at 11:40:14PM +0200, Nomen Nescio wrote:
> Google thus serves as an honesty mechanism, holding people responsible
> for what they have said and making it more difficult for them to conceal
> revisions to their published opinions.

Not necessarily. Anyone who wants to post something controversial and
deny it later will hide it behind a cgi script or something Google
won't index.

Google caches catch only those who didn't take precautions.

> It's unfortunate that we have to rely on Google.  Imagine an ongoing,
> distributed project to cache the web.  Volunteers could keep tabs on
> a subset of corporate and personal web pages and cache old versions
> when changes are made.  Rewriting history becomes that much harder.
> And it's certainly a better use of computers than seti at home.

Sounds great. Good luck in starting it. I'm sure you've estimated
how much this will cost -- and what market demand will be.

-Declan
(online since early 1980s, on the Internet since 1988, who still
thinks FAQs are a great way to find info)




From tcmay at got.net  Tue Oct  9 20:06:19 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 20:06:19 -0700
Subject: Talking to the Press Considered Harmful
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011009192550.0099b260@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: 


On Tuesday, October 9, 2001, at 07:25 PM, David Honig wrote:

> At 07:09 PM 10/9/01 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>>
>> You can always tell them that if they willfully and substantively
>> misquote you, you will visit their home, wait until they are are away,
>> kill their wife and children, wait until they return home, force them 
>> to
>> the floor at gunpoint, put tape around their mouth and nylon tie wraps
>> around their hands, let them see what has been done to their family, 
>> let
>> them think about it for 10 minutes, then put tape over their nose and
>> wait for them to suffocate.
>>
>
> Ah, channelling Keyzer-Soze now?
>
> Or wiretapping Janet Reno's fantasy life?
>
> ....
> Good timing: the dude who flew his ultralight into the Statue of Liberty
> while you could do that and not get a missile up your butt.
>

Expressing my belief about what should be done to many people.

Deal with it, or don't.


--Tim May, Occupied America
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety 
deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759.




From tcmay at got.net  Tue Oct  9 20:22:50 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 20:22:50 -0700
Subject: Talking to the Press Considered Harmful
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20011009225616.02680cb0@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <1555FC69-BD2E-11D5-B568-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Tuesday, October 9, 2001, at 07:59 PM, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> That's always an engineer's problem. :)
>
> Tech may be a partial solution. Tim could tape-record the conversation 
> (or, if there were sufficient market demand, conference in a neutral 
> party to do the recording) and damage the reporter's reputation capital 
> by posting the audio clip if he ends up misquoted.
>
> This obviously requires more effort than he appears willing to spend. 
> But some PR flacks do record conversations with journalists for 
> precisely this reason. (Less so damaging reputation capital, more so 
> obtaining a clarification/editor's note if something goes awry.)

Declan and others know this well, but it bears repeating:

-- the main reason people give interviews is to get their name out in 
the press, to drum up business.

This is why people will drive 20 miles to get to a television studio to 
appear for 70 seconds on CNBC or CNN. All they want is the exposure.

Ditto for most telephone interviews. Most people quoted are selling 
something, either a product or a consulting business or just want 
exposure for future uses.

There are a very few journalists who are actually doing in-depth 
coverage of some topic. These journalist cultivate a handful of sources, 
sources who are not necessarily interested in getting 25 seconds of 
"face time" on a network.

--Tim May
"You don't expect governments to obey the law because of some higher 
moral development. You expect them to obey the law because they know 
that if they don't, those who aren't shot will be hanged." - -Michael 
Shirley




From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu  Tue Oct  9 17:26:09 2001
From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 20:26:09 -0400
Subject: Indymedia interviews Noam Chomsky
Message-ID: <20011009202609.A16318@ils.unc.edu>


(Includes some good comments on US censorship.  gbn)

----- Forwarded message from Peter Phillips  -----


From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Tue Oct  9 20:27:58 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 20:27:58 -0700
Subject: Who wants to be a millionaire
In-Reply-To: <59C27890-BD21-11D5-B568-0050E439C473@got.net>; from
  tcmay@got.net on Tue, Oct 09, 2001 at 06:51:41PM -0700
References: <20011009161411.A13668@navel.introspect>
  <59C27890-BD21-11D5-B568-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <20011009202757.A19991@navel.introspect>


on Tue, Oct 09, 2001 at 06:51:41PM -0700, Tim May (tcmay at got.net) wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 9, 2001, at 04:14 PM, Karsten M. Self wrote:
>
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > on Thu, Oct 04, 2001 at 10:11:36AM -0400, Steve Furlong
> > (sfurlong at acmenet.net) wrote:

> >> Is there any way to solve this transaction problem without a
> >> mutually-trusted third party?
> >
> > Jim Bell's Assasination Protocol:
> >
> >     http://zolatimes.com/v2.26/jimbell.htm

> You do a disservice to crypto and our group by implying, even in a
> backhanded way, that Bell's "AP" system was or is in any way feasible.

Naw.

I'm just one of the dilettants posting here out of ignorance for some
free research on the part of the rest of you.

> Where's the true untraceable cash needed?

Who needs untraceable anonymity when throwaway pseudonymous accounts
should suffice?

Peace.

--
Karsten M. Self         http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?              Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                    Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA!  http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                      http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]




From tcmay at got.net  Tue Oct  9 20:46:31 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 20:46:31 -0700
Subject: I've sent him to the cornfield
In-Reply-To: <20011009202757.A19991@navel.introspect>
Message-ID: <648DE738-BD31-11D5-B568-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Tuesday, October 9, 2001, at 08:27 PM, Karsten M. Self wrote:

> Naw.
>
> I'm just one of the dilettants posting here out of ignorance for some
> free research on the part of the rest of you.
>
>> Where's the true untraceable cash needed?
>
> Who needs untraceable anonymity when throwaway pseudonymous accounts
> should suffice?

No comment needed.

P L O N K

I noted with interest the arrival of this "Karsten M. Self," who seemed 
to have an opinion on everything. As the weeks have gone by, I have seen 
nothing substantive. Now he cheerfully admits to total ignorance. Time 
to send him to the cornfield.



> --Tim May, Citizen-unit of of the once free United States
" The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood 
of patriots & tyrants. "--Thomas Jefferson, 1787




From honig at sprynet.com  Tue Oct  9 20:49:49 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 20:49:49 -0700
Subject: Talking to the Press Considered Harmful
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20011009225616.02680cb0@mail.well.com>
References: <3.0.6.32.20011009192038.0097bab0@pop.sprynet.com>
  <5.0.2.1.0.20011009220302.00a70d10@mail.well.com>
  <3.0.6.32.20011009183151.009a4100@pop.sprynet.com>
  <20011009142908.B18392@cluebot.com>
  <63E073AE-BCD8-11D5-B568-0050E439C473@got.net>
  <3BC307C9.F300BDDE@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
  <63E073AE-BCD8-11D5-B568-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011009204949.009aa100@pop.sprynet.com>


At 10:59 PM 10/9/01 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>That's always an engineer's problem. :)
>
>Tech may be a partial solution. Tim could tape-record the conversation (or, 
>if there were sufficient market demand, conference in a neutral party to do 
>the recording) and damage the reporter's reputation capital by posting the 
>audio clip if he ends up misquoted.
>
>This obviously requires more effort than he appears willing to spend. But 
>some PR flacks do record conversations with journalists for precisely this 
>reason. (Less so damaging reputation capital, more so obtaining a 
>clarification/editor's note if something goes awry.)
>
>-Declan
>
>At 07:20 PM 10/9/01 -0700, David Honig wrote:
>>Ok.  I was trying to use tech to solve a social problem.
>
>

Audio recording takes essentially zero resources these days.  In Calif,
IIRC, he'd have to get permission, but presumably *that's* ok with you
reporter-types :-)




From honig at sprynet.com  Tue Oct  9 21:00:04 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 21:00:04 -0700
Subject: Talking to the Press Considered Harmful
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3.0.6.32.20011009192550.0099b260@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011009210004.009a8770@pop.sprynet.com>


At 08:06 PM 10/9/01 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>
>Deal with it, or don't.
>

I want a specialty license plate with that as its motto.

Fsck the New Hampshirites with their trite Live Free or Die.




From honig at sprynet.com  Tue Oct  9 21:10:43 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 21:10:43 -0700
Subject: Google and the Net
In-Reply-To: <20011009232321.C1052@cluebot.com>
References: <3.0.6.32.20011009185040.0099be20@pop.sprynet.com>
  <910ab3ffda50b37fd079c10a14793d46@dizum.com>
  <3.0.6.32.20011009185040.0099be20@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011009211043.009a7a00@pop.sprynet.com>


At 11:23 PM 10/9/01 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Huh? There's little to search with when it comes to images, unless
>you pull from the surrounding content, which Google does.

But google doesn't save the images, including navigational images
(which tend to be .gifs) nor does it -traversal -crawl

And the dynamic (CGI) site problem.

Also, I realize this is a lot of bandwidth.  Perhaps sites could
automatically self-nominate for mirroring?  Ie, Joe Sixpack
putting up his housecat site won't bother; but a dissident
would.  But that's a Freenet-type scheme.  

>There are several orders of magnitude difference between storing web
>page-size content and the kind of filename-size content that would
>appear in image titles and descriptions.

Yes and I realized shortly after posting that Google probably is smart
about compressing what can be.  Basically I need dense (but slow)
nonvolitile memory prices to decrease, not software.

Eventually tech could outpace human output.  Everyone would have a Slab
containing the history (and all uncopyrighted and copyrighted works,
the latter licensable of course :-) from the Sumerians to last month's
concerts.  And everyone painting and singing until the sun burnt out would not
fill another Slab.

Meanwhile make backups.  And mirror the twisted.  :-)




From jya at pipeline.com  Tue Oct  9 21:14:34 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 21:14:34 -0700
Subject: NATO Bails Out USA
Message-ID: <200110100120.VAA24862@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>


DoD has announced that NATO is sending five AWACS to
help protect the skies of military-poor USA. Now is this a
variation on the UKUSA helping each other avoid violating
domestic law against homeland spying and fast disappearing
posse comitatus?




From honig at sprynet.com  Tue Oct  9 21:19:31 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 21:19:31 -0700
Subject: Talking to the Press Considered Harmful
In-Reply-To: <20011010001203.A6096@cluebot.com>
References: <1555FC69-BD2E-11D5-B568-0050E439C473@got.net>
  <5.0.2.1.0.20011009225616.02680cb0@mail.well.com>
  <1555FC69-BD2E-11D5-B568-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011009211931.009a11b0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 12:12 AM 10/10/01 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>On Tue, Oct 09, 2001 at 08:22:50PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
>> -- the main reason people give interviews is to get their name out in 
>> the press, to drum up business.
>> 
>> This is why people will drive 20 miles to get to a television studio to 
>> appear for 70 seconds on CNBC or CNN. All they want is the exposure.
>
>I've been doing semi-regular appearances on CNN for about four years.
>They'll send a car for you if you ask, no need to drive.
>
>But I suppose I fall into the above category. I do TV interviews
>primarily because, in no particular order: (a) it's good experience;
>(b) it raises my profile and the profile of my employer; (c)
>management likes it; (d) I can try to inject some substance into what
>are typically superficial discussions. 


Yes, what's cool is that others benefit besides you and the broadcasters
who sell your bits. Similarly with Tim's output, whether its here or
elsewhere.  
Certainly no one has an obligation to clue others in, but its good when they
choose to[1], especially when its a side effect of their own benefit.

[1] If of course I agree with them :-) 




From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Tue Oct  9 21:22:47 2001
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 21:22:47 -0700
Subject: al Qaeda website?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


Steve Mynott wrote:
> "Lucky Green"  writes:
> > Attempting to obtain information from primary sources, I have
> been trying to
> > track down a bin Laden or al Qaeda website without any success.
> Does anybody
> > on this list have a URL?
>
>  m/rizla7866/index6.html+%22%2Bwww.geocities.%2Bcom/rizla7866%22&hl
> =en&client=googlet>
>
> compare with
>
> 

Unfortunately, the website appears to have been taken down and the Google
cache provides hardly any useful information. Besides, I doubt that this was
the al Qaeda website. Any other links? (Yes, I of course had tried Google
before posting).

Thanks,
--Lucky




From tcmay at got.net  Tue Oct  9 21:23:03 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 21:23:03 -0700
Subject: Talking to the Press Considered Harmful
In-Reply-To: <20011010001203.A6096@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <7F6D52E4-BD36-11D5-8912-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Tuesday, October 9, 2001, at 09:12 PM, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
> I've been doing semi-regular appearances on CNN for about four years.
> They'll send a car for you if you ask, no need to drive.

Which shows? When/

I'm a frequent watcher of CNN (though not CNN-FN or Lou Dobbs), and yet 
the only time I have seen you on t.v. was on an episode of Geraldo a 
year or two ago.

> But I suppose I fall into the above category. I do TV interviews
> primarily because, in no particular order: (a) it's good experience;
> (b) it raises my profile and the profile of my employer; (c)
> management likes it; (d) I can try to inject some substance into what
> are typically superficial discussions.

Yes, I'd say you fit the profile.
> I did NBC network evening news not long ago. I didn't feel like going
> into their bureau (about 15-20 minutes away),l so I had them come to
> my home. It took them about four hours from the time they arrived to
> the time they left, mostly lighting and setup. A large portion was
> B-roll of me typing dummy entries into Microsoft Passport, punctuated
> by me talking to their reporter in NYC via a speakerphone sitting on a
> chair while I pretended to look straight ahead, as if I were looking
> her in the eye. Sigh. They used about 7 seconds of what I said.

About right. Four hours of your time for 7 seconds of commentary.

No wonder the networks are gradually going broke.

"Typing dummy entries." Typical. Faking the news.

(I had a sort of similar experience in '95 when the BBC wanted to 
interview me. I had to get up at 5 am for an 8 am flight to LA (I live 
an hour away from the airport), take a series of buses and shuttles to a 
hoity toity hotel in Hollywood, wait for 3 hours for Alvin and Heidi 
Toffler to be interviewed, then submit to their "let's have you do some 
fake stuff!" producer directions. I resisted doing the fake stuff, but 
they insisted. I pretended to be doing something crypto-like. They ended 
up using about a second of this elaborately-faked session. And they 
lifted my comments in such a way as to misrepresent what I said. I 
finally  made my way back to LAX around 6, caught a late flight to SJO, 
and arrived back at my home around midnight. All for a meaningless 
snippet on a meaningless t.v. show seen by a few thousands Brits. Of 
course, were I a journalist or other such person, I would prominently 
list this in my resume. What a joke.)



--Tim May, Corralitos, California
Quote of the Month: "It is said that there are no atheists in foxholes; 
perhaps there are no true libertarians in times of terrorist attacks." 
--Cathy Young, "Reason Magazine," both enemies of liberty.




From anmetet at freedom.gmsociety.org  Tue Oct  9 18:25:19 2001
From: anmetet at freedom.gmsociety.org (An Metet)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 21:25:19 -0400
Subject: Any Reason I Should NOT Killfile Choate?
Message-ID: <2d1819a4f55284e03e791156f9fea377@freedom.gmsociety.org>


Incognitor inquired:

> Does he ever post anything worthwhile?

  Yeah, actually, despite all the pain in the ass stuff he posts, sometimes
he posts some good URLS. And I hope this doesn't encourage him, because half the
time he posts old shit. And half the time he posts totally worthtless shit. But
now and again he sends an URL that is pretty interesting, so, although his opinions
are mostly absurd, I've always stopped myself from killfiling him.
   And I've got a list of killfiled people who I can't even remember who or why. 




From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Oct  9 19:26:22 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 21:26:22 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Domestic Surveillance: stills from video
In-Reply-To: <20011009170824.A13983@navel.introspect>
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 9 Oct 2001, Dynamite Bob wrote:

> [Reformatted for legibility.  Please take the few moments required to
> ensure materials submitted are readable.  KMSelf]
> 
> http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-000080591oct09.story?coll=la%2Dnews%2Da%5Fsection
> 
> Still images can be derived from many video frames
> with better resolution than you think.

It's actually pretty standard.

My 15 year old Amiga Video Toaster uses several frames to generate each
still.

It's common practive in astronomy to 'stack' multiple images in order to
bring out detail. They can sometimes stack quite a few frames, 25+



 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From tcmay at got.net  Tue Oct  9 21:30:08 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 21:30:08 -0700
Subject: Talking to the Press Considered Harmful
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011009204949.009aa100@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <7C30BAD8-BD37-11D5-8912-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Tuesday, October 9, 2001, at 08:49 PM, David Honig wrote:

> At 10:59 PM 10/9/01 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>> That's always an engineer's problem. :)
>>
>> Tech may be a partial solution. Tim could tape-record the conversation 
>> (or,
>> if there were sufficient market demand, conference in a neutral party 
>> to do
>> the recording) and damage the reporter's reputation capital by posting 
>> the
>> audio clip if he ends up misquoted.
>>
>> This obviously requires more effort than he appears willing to spend. 
>> But
>> some PR flacks do record conversations with journalists for precisely 
>> this
>> reason. (Less so damaging reputation capital, more so obtaining a
>> clarification/editor's note if something goes awry.)
>>
>> -Declan
>>
>> At 07:20 PM 10/9/01 -0700, David Honig wrote:
>>> Ok.  I was trying to use tech to solve a social problem.
>>
>>
>
> Audio recording takes essentially zero resources these days.  In Calif,
> IIRC, he'd have to get permission, but presumably *that's* ok with you
> reporter-types :-)

No, you're missing the real issue. Having a tape of what was said is 
meaningless for two main reasons:

1. Selective quoting. Out of a typical interview, the reporter can 
extract the juiciest quotes, even if misleading and out of context.

2. Enforcement. Having a tape is not very useful. (Declan says some 
court rulings say that verbal agreements are binding, but this presumes 
that one would bother to sue, hire the lawyers, and see it through. I 
know I wouldn't. I'd rather pay $5000 to have a lying journalist whacked 
than spend a hundred thousand bucks fighting AOL Time Warner or General 
Electric and, probably, losing.)



--Tim May
"Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and
strangled with her panty hose,  is somehow morally superior to a woman 
explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound"




From honig at sprynet.com  Tue Oct  9 21:36:40 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 21:36:40 -0700
Subject: Talking to the Press Considered Harmful
In-Reply-To: <7C30BAD8-BD37-11D5-8912-0050E439C473@got.net>
References: <3.0.6.32.20011009204949.009aa100@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011009213640.009ae2b0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 09:30 PM 10/9/01 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>
>2. Enforcement. Having a tape is not very useful. (Declan says some 
>court rulings say that verbal agreements are binding, but this presumes 
>that one would bother to sue, hire the lawyers, and see it through. I 
>know I wouldn't. I'd rather pay $5000 to have a lying journalist whacked 
>than spend a hundred thousand bucks fighting AOL Time Warner or General 
>Electric and, probably, losing.)

Yes in general it sounds about as much fun as a subpeona to Washington
state in winter.




From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Oct  9 19:39:09 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 21:39:09 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Any Reason I Should NOT Killfile Choate?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 9 Oct 2001, Incognito Innominatus wrote:

> Does he ever post anything worthwhile?
> 

You need permission? What a pozer.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From fogstorm at mac.com  Tue Oct  9 21:42:29 2001
From: fogstorm at mac.com (FogStorm)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 21:42:29 -0700
Subject: BART Loses Grip Re: Anthrax Case Number Three
In-Reply-To: <3BC3A81C.3FA18B63@tabun.com>
Message-ID: <200110100432.f9A4WQn26026@smtp-out.mac.com>


I've no idea how any of these measures are supposed to inhibit *suicide* 
bombers.

http://eastbay.bcentral.com/eastbay/dailyedition.html has this to say 
about it:

BART will increase police presence throughout its mass-transit train 
system, close all station rest-rooms and remove all garbage containers 
from the platform level as part of heightened security measures.

Bay Area Rapid Transit will continue to monitor all trains in key 
locations, including both ends of the Transbay Tube between San 
Francisco and Oakland, a move that began after the Sept. 11 terrorist 
attacks on the East Coast.

BART also said elevators serving subway stations on the system will 
temporarily operate on an on-call basis, with users contacting station 
agents through an intercom.

BART, which carries more than 330,000 commuters a day, also is urging 
passengers to not leave packages, suitcases or other large items on cars 
or trains.

On Tuesday, October 9, 2001, at 06:45  PM, Tabla bin Rasa wrote:

> At 02:08 PM 10/9/01 -0700, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote:
>
>> Maybe this was an improvised attack made necessary after access to crop
>
>> dusters became more difficult. I hope this represents the limit of
> their
>> skills.
>
> They still have to try out their chemistry skills.
>
> No bathrooms in BART stations, now.  Terrorists won.




From pagre at alpha.oac.ucla.edu  Tue Oct  9 21:52:39 2001
From: pagre at alpha.oac.ucla.edu (Phil Agre)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 21:52:39 -0700
Subject: US Food Aid Propaganda
Message-ID: 

i think one of the british articles mentioned the point.
at least i'd heard it somewhere in the last day. but another
possibility is they're telling the truth, and 37k packages
is simply the first installment

###
From: "Trei, Peter" 
To: cypherpunks at lne.com, "'Matthew Gaylor'" 
Subject: RE: US Food Aid Propaganda
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:16:59 -0400


This is one of those things where you can run the numbers.

      ...37500 meals dropped on Sunday. The packages don't
look like they weighed much more than a pound. Lets be very
generous, and say 1 kilo.

That's 37.5 metric tons in one night, max. Sounds like a lot?

According to the World Food Program website (www.wfp.org),
the UN is trying to truck in 52,000 tons a month. Assuming a
30 day month, that's 1733 tons/day.

The US bombing shut down the UN aid delivery for a few days,
(it's now going ahead again, even under fire, because the
need is so critical).

The US airdrops replaced, at the very maximum, less then
2.5% of the food whose delivery was prevented by the
bombing.

I'm reminded of the recent corporate ad from RJ Reynolds,
where they made of deal of delivering some amount (less
then 10 tons, I think) or aid to Kosovo. That amounted to
a single truckload. They then spent many times the cost
of the aid on airtime to trumpet their humanitarian efforts.

Peter Trei

###


From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Oct  9 19:55:01 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 21:55:01 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Domestic Surveillance: stills from video
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011009193443.009a54e0@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 9 Oct 2001, David Honig wrote:

> I think the point is that the source frames were moving.

Edge detection and sharpening software is my friend. If it's an object in
the frame, contrast to the entire frame, that is being target then run a
simple edge detector on a blit, find the CG, stack CG in subsequent
frames. Average, sharpen, edge detect, add back into original (ie stack
frames)...

Another trick, digital cameras use it, is to crop all the frames so that
the 'window' is the 'same' in each frame. Then display the frame as the
'through the lens' and you get a much more stable image.

That they are moving is an opportunity, not a problem.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From anmetet at freedom.gmsociety.org  Tue Oct  9 18:57:40 2001
From: anmetet at freedom.gmsociety.org (An Metet)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 21:57:40 -0400
Subject: There was a day when we would call it kidnapping,
Message-ID: <5602a89b2e89a742dc97e07478c64002@freedom.gmsociety.org>


>Story on US role in kidnapping Moslems, and how this may have motivated
>Al Qaeda's blowback.  No mention of (since ruled illegal by US
>courts) kidnapping of mexican physician by DEA goons.

Now they'll be fortunate if all we do is kidnap & interrogate them.




From declan at well.com  Tue Oct  9 19:04:52 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 22:04:52 -0400
Subject: Talking to the Press Considered Harmful
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011009183151.009a4100@pop.sprynet.com>
References: <20011009142908.B18392@cluebot.com>
  <63E073AE-BCD8-11D5-B568-0050E439C473@got.net>
  <3BC307C9.F300BDDE@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
  <63E073AE-BCD8-11D5-B568-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20011009220302.00a70d10@mail.well.com>


At 06:31 PM 10/9/01 -0700, David Honig wrote:
>This agreement isn't enforcable, is it?  Even if it were, by the time
>you've sued them for
>damage to your rep for misquoting, its too late.

Agreements similar to this that sources make with media organizations have 
been held by courts to be enforceable, yes. I suspect this one would be too.

Too late? How about damages.

>It would be better for Tim (etc) to do a writeup, post it, and point
>to it.  Then others could find the original and compare reporters'

No, reporters will want to ask questions on the phone, or, more rarely, in 
person for audio or video taping. (There are many good reasons for this.) 
An essay by Tim isn't good enough for those reasons and also, frankly, for 
more parochial reasons of "exclusivity."

-Declan




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Tue Oct  9 22:09:22 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 22:09:22 -0700
Subject: who wants to be a millionaire
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011010155135.00a5ea70@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: 


"mattd" wrote:

> ...Also trust, in that untracable digital
> cash is not strictly needed.Merely enough
> trustworthy netizens to promise to send
> their pledge to the 'predictor'who remains
> anonymous.
>
> eg.60 million netizens pledge 1$ each on a
> newswire somewhere that doesnt keep logs.
> I actually got a pledge of 1$ to wax rich
> armitage like a candle,Its a lot of fun.

So, the pledges pour in.  Now the intended target figures, hell, I'll just
predict my OWN death, fake it and anonymously collect those pledges.  Then
I'll use whatever portion of the $60 million I actually receive to buy
better security.  Rinse and repeat.  Do you really think folks are going to
play the game again with Joe Target after he is resurrected?  Especially if
he tells everyone exactly what he did and promises to do it again if another
price is put on his head?

Please folks, that took me all of 30 seconds to figure out.  Do some
analysis before you spout off about AP.  IT WON'T WORK.  Please make a note
of it.

> Theres still a lot of free range banks
> out there.

Is "free range bank" supposed to convey some sort of meaning?

a) Define "free range bank."

b) Give three examples.  (There are "a lot" of them "out there," right?)


 S a n d y




From mstalbot at newsguy.com  Tue Oct  9 22:26:56 2001
From: mstalbot at newsguy.com (Mark Talbot)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 22:26:56 -0700
Subject: Tracking Anthrax Source 
Message-ID: <200110100526.WAA71786@newsguy.com>


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-
bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2001/10/09/MN203701.DTL&type=printable

"Like all living things, anthrax bacteria evolve with subtle
characteristics unique to each geographic area. Forensic biologists can
trace those changes in bacterial DNA. If old stockpiles of Soviet-era
anthrax were sold by rogue scientists to terrorists, genes could
identify those as well.
"




From DTheroux at independent.org  Tue Oct  9 22:53:09 2001
From: DTheroux at independent.org (David Theroux)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 22:53:09 -0700
Subject: US Food Aid Propaganda
Message-ID: 

Dear Matt,

Great for you to point out this important aspect of the U.S. war campaign.

Considering the altitude at which these drops are being made on 
pallets, the further question is whether such drops might actually be 
viewed by the Afghani people as the U.S. dumping garbage since that 
is likely what the cargo will be upon impact.

Best regards,

David

David J. Theroux
Founder and President
The Independent Institute
100 Swan Way
Oakland, CA 94621-1428
510-632-1366 Phone
510-568-6040 Fax
DTheroux at independent.org
http://www.independent.org

###


From declan at well.com  Tue Oct  9 19:59:47 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 22:59:47 -0400
Subject: Talking to the Press Considered Harmful
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011009192038.0097bab0@pop.sprynet.com>
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20011009220302.00a70d10@mail.well.com>
  <3.0.6.32.20011009183151.009a4100@pop.sprynet.com>
  <20011009142908.B18392@cluebot.com>
  <63E073AE-BCD8-11D5-B568-0050E439C473@got.net>
  <3BC307C9.F300BDDE@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
  <63E073AE-BCD8-11D5-B568-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20011009225616.02680cb0@mail.well.com>


That's always an engineer's problem. :)

Tech may be a partial solution. Tim could tape-record the conversation (or, 
if there were sufficient market demand, conference in a neutral party to do 
the recording) and damage the reporter's reputation capital by posting the 
audio clip if he ends up misquoted.

This obviously requires more effort than he appears willing to spend. But 
some PR flacks do record conversations with journalists for precisely this 
reason. (Less so damaging reputation capital, more so obtaining a 
clarification/editor's note if something goes awry.)

-Declan

At 07:20 PM 10/9/01 -0700, David Honig wrote:
>Ok.  I was trying to use tech to solve a social problem.




From wolf at priori.net  Tue Oct  9 23:03:39 2001
From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 23:03:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: who wants to be a millionaire
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Tue, 9 Oct 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

> "mattd" wrote:

[snip]

> Please folks, that took me all of 30 seconds to figure out.  Do some
> analysis before you spout off about AP.  IT WON'T WORK.  Please make a note
> of it.

Sandy, you are responding to the same poster who has made such illuminating
contributions to this list as the posts titled "aimee's anal urges" and
"running out of tim.." Please don't encourage him.

Cypherpunks has always had its share of kooks.

"Mathew Taylor's" writing style is more obscure than John Young's or Aimee
Farr's, and his posts are as confused or content-less as Jim Choate's or
Karsten Self's. He is better off simply ignored.

Selected quotes:

"cryptoanarchy aka cryptocapitalism seems to be in crisis."

"My name is jim bell,no MY name is jim bell...AAAAAAAAArrrgh! Im screwed."

"Cant you be obsessed with JB and Cryptoanarchy/freenet?"

"War of the flea now must become war of the killer bee."

"Bin laden? Id buy that for a dollar!"

"Dear tim,no real anarchist craps on like you about a 'fruit ot the poison
tree'constitution.FUCK uncle sams racist con job."

"Assasination politics has as much claim for consideration as any other."

"Sustained AP at shrub when executive order on assasins is revoked.?"

"Hell,tim might rope some of his paintball buddies along for the ride."

"Assasination politics was originally proposed for saddam,wasnt it?"

"I pledge 1$ for the closest prediction of the permanent retirement from
politics of the honourable osama bin laden."

"Are you sure its too late for operation soft drill?"

"C/punks with spunk get an offshore AP website up and softdrill any ugly
mother that raises its ugly head."

"Encrypt the reward as described in 'assasination politics'"

"It should be our duty to remind them they may be the ones who are
clipped."


(On second thought, after reading this collection of quotes, I wouldn't be
surprised if "mattd" AKA "Matt Taylor" were actually Agent Jeff Gordon.
They certainly share the same obsession. When was Gordon's last psych
eval?)



-MW-




From declan at well.com  Tue Oct  9 20:18:48 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 23:18:48 -0400
Subject: Talking to the Press Considered Harmful
In-Reply-To: <423F1008-BD27-11D5-B568-0050E439C473@got.net>; from
  tcmay@got.net on Tue, Oct 09, 2001 at 07:33:58PM -0700
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20011009220302.00a70d10@mail.well.com>
  <423F1008-BD27-11D5-B568-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <20011009231846.B1052@cluebot.com>


On Tue, Oct 09, 2001 at 07:33:58PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> Every time I consent to an interview, I regret it. The most recent time 
> was earlier this year for  a French journalist doing a piece on Freenet, 

Come, now. There are different grades of journalist: Some are reasonably
clueful and write frequently about these topics, and others are dilettantes
told by their editors to "find something new about P2P to write about."

I remember that Steven Levy from Newsweek went out to interview you,
the content of which made its way into a chapter of his Crypto book,
which you've recommended.

-Declan




From declan at well.com  Tue Oct  9 20:23:21 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 23:23:21 -0400
Subject: Google and the Net
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011009185040.0099be20@pop.sprynet.com>; from
  honig@sprynet.com on Tue, Oct 09, 2001 at 06:50:40PM -0700
References: <910ab3ffda50b37fd079c10a14793d46@dizum.com>
  <3.0.6.32.20011009185040.0099be20@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <20011009232321.C1052@cluebot.com>


Huh? There's little to search with when it comes to images, unless
you pull from the surrounding content, which Google does.

There are several orders of magnitude difference between storing web
page-size content and the kind of filename-size content that would
appear in image titles and descriptions.

In other words, an index of just JPG image titles would be far
smaller than an index of the same number of web pages (though the
binary files themselves, which won't be indexed, would likely consume
more space).

-Declan


On Tue, Oct 09, 2001 at 06:50:40PM -0700, David Honig wrote:
> Very nice analysis.
> 
> If you greatly reduce Google's speed of search, what kind of 
> compression-gains can you get?   Imagine an archive which is
> highly compressed [1] but used mostly to counter censorship.
> 
> [1] That JPGs etc. are already highly compressed means that
> if you keep pictures, you won't gain as much by trading off
> search speed for compression.




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Tue Oct  9 23:30:11 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 23:30:11 -0700
Subject: who wants to be a millionaire
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


Good points, Meyer.  Actually, "mattd" spells like Inchoate (i.e., poorly
and with similar mistakes).  Special agent Gordon, though, might be a
candidate.  Anyway, I'd still like to see a defense of AP that makes any
sense at all.


 S a n d y

P.S.  Is the "special" in "special agent" like the "special" in "Special
Olympics"?  :'D

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com]On
> Behalf Of Meyer Wolfsheim
> Sent: 09 October, 2001 23:04
> To: cypherpunks at lne.com
> Subject: RE: who wants to be a millionaire
>
>
> On Tue, 9 Oct 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote:
>
> > "mattd" wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > Please folks, that took me all of 30 seconds to figure out.  Do some
> > analysis before you spout off about AP.  IT WON'T WORK.  Please
> make a note
> > of it.
>
> Sandy, you are responding to the same poster who has made such
> illuminating
> contributions to this list as the posts titled "aimee's anal urges" and
> "running out of tim.." Please don't encourage him.
>
> Cypherpunks has always had its share of kooks.
>
> "Mathew Taylor's" writing style is more obscure than John Young's or Aimee
> Farr's, and his posts are as confused or content-less as Jim Choate's or
> Karsten Self's. He is better off simply ignored.
>
> Selected quotes:
>
> "cryptoanarchy aka cryptocapitalism seems to be in crisis."
>
> "My name is jim bell,no MY name is jim bell...AAAAAAAAArrrgh! Im screwed."
>
> "Cant you be obsessed with JB and Cryptoanarchy/freenet?"
>
> "War of the flea now must become war of the killer bee."
>
> "Bin laden? Id buy that for a dollar!"
>
> "Dear tim,no real anarchist craps on like you about a 'fruit ot the poison
> tree'constitution.FUCK uncle sams racist con job."
>
> "Assasination politics has as much claim for consideration as any other."
>
> "Sustained AP at shrub when executive order on assasins is revoked.?"
>
> "Hell,tim might rope some of his paintball buddies along for the ride."
>
> "Assasination politics was originally proposed for saddam,wasnt it?"
>
> "I pledge 1$ for the closest prediction of the permanent retirement from
> politics of the honourable osama bin laden."
>
> "Are you sure its too late for operation soft drill?"
>
> "C/punks with spunk get an offshore AP website up and softdrill any ugly
> mother that raises its ugly head."
>
> "Encrypt the reward as described in 'assasination politics'"
>
> "It should be our duty to remind them they may be the ones who are
> clipped."
>
>
> (On second thought, after reading this collection of quotes, I wouldn't be
> surprised if "mattd" AKA "Matt Taylor" were actually Agent Jeff Gordon.
> They certainly share the same obsession. When was Gordon's last psych
> eval?)
>
>
>
> -MW-




From nobody at dizum.com  Tue Oct  9 14:40:14 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Tue,  9 Oct 2001 23:40:14 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Google and the Net
Message-ID: <910ab3ffda50b37fd079c10a14793d46@dizum.com>


> >> Steve Mynott[SMTP:steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk] wrote:
> >> Every thought how bad the net would be if google went away?
> >>
> > Actually, us old timers remember what it was like before google,
>
> Hypertext in general is doubleplus good.
>
> I remember Gopher, Archie, and all of those crufty tools.

You are all missing the point.  Google was being praised for its specific
feature of acting as an internet-wide cache of old versions of web pages.
Prior to 9/11 the page in question held inflammatory content praising
bin Laden.  Now it's been pulled.  The google cache lets us see the
previous version, thwarting the efforts of the page owner to hide his
earlier sentiments.

Google thus serves as an honesty mechanism, holding people responsible
for what they have said and making it more difficult for them to conceal
revisions to their published opinions.

All this old-fogey talk about "I remember the days before Google" is
nothing but hot air.  Sure, things were harder before search engines;
of course they were, but it's a trivial observation.  The point is that
this often-unappreciated cacheing feature of search engines can have a
powerful influence on the nature of the Web.

It's unfortunate that we have to rely on Google.  Imagine an ongoing,
distributed project to cache the web.  Volunteers could keep tabs on
a subset of corporate and personal web pages and cache old versions
when changes are made.  Rewriting history becomes that much harder.
And it's certainly a better use of computers than seti at home.




From declan at well.com  Tue Oct  9 21:12:03 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 00:12:03 -0400
Subject: Talking to the Press Considered Harmful
In-Reply-To: <1555FC69-BD2E-11D5-B568-0050E439C473@got.net>; from
  tcmay@got.net on Tue, Oct 09, 2001 at 08:22:50PM -0700
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20011009225616.02680cb0@mail.well.com>
  <1555FC69-BD2E-11D5-B568-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <20011010001203.A6096@cluebot.com>


On Tue, Oct 09, 2001 at 08:22:50PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> -- the main reason people give interviews is to get their name out in 
> the press, to drum up business.
> 
> This is why people will drive 20 miles to get to a television studio to 
> appear for 70 seconds on CNBC or CNN. All they want is the exposure.

I've been doing semi-regular appearances on CNN for about four years.
They'll send a car for you if you ask, no need to drive.

But I suppose I fall into the above category. I do TV interviews
primarily because, in no particular order: (a) it's good experience;
(b) it raises my profile and the profile of my employer; (c)
management likes it; (d) I can try to inject some substance into what
are typically superficial discussions. Not saying I generally succeed,
of course. I find that radio shows are better for more in-depth
discussions. Usually, with the exception of NPR, you can do them
from home.

I did NBC network evening news not long ago. I didn't feel like going
into their bureau (about 15-20 minutes away),l so I had them come to
my home. It took them about four hours from the time they arrived to
the time they left, mostly lighting and setup. A large portion was
B-roll of me typing dummy entries into Microsoft Passport, punctuated
by me talking to their reporter in NYC via a speakerphone sitting on a
chair while I pretended to look straight ahead, as if I were looking
her in the eye. Sigh. They used about 7 seconds of what I said.

-Declan




From drevil at sidereal.kz  Tue Oct  9 17:21:45 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil)
Date: 10 Oct 2001 00:21:45 -0000
Subject: FBI grammar (was Re: FBI utilizing supermarket club cards in
  profiling)
In-Reply-To: <20011009171411.B13983@navel.introspect>
  (kmself@ix.netcom.com)
References: <20011009171411.B13983@navel.introspect>
Message-ID: <20011010002145.9719.qmail@sidereal.kz>


>     hint of ethnic tastes. "Time was, this data was so disorganized
>     nobody could make sense of it, but not anymore. They're looking for
>     people based on their supermarket tastes," says consultant Larry
>     Ponemon, head of the Privacy Council business consortium. "Trouble
>     is, there's so much bad data out there, and how do your know if
>     someone eats like a terrorist?" he asks.

Time was, people knew grammar.  Not anymore.  Consultant Larry Ponemon
needs to hire a grammar consultant to tell him: "_These_ data _were_
so disorganized... There _are_ so _many_ bad data out there..."

Get a clue, Mr. Ponemon!




From baptista at pccf.net  Tue Oct  9 21:42:40 2001
From: baptista at pccf.net (baptista at pccf.net)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 00:42:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Any Reason I Should NOT Killfile Choate?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Tue, 9 Oct 2001, Incognito Innominatus wrote:

> Does he ever post anything worthwhile?


he's a lovely lad.  Choate is like a spicy dish full of gems.  But there's
so much spice it's hard to find the gems.

regards
joe

-- 
The dot.GOD Registry, Limited

http://www.dot-god.com/




From freematt at coil.com  Tue Oct  9 21:51:29 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 00:51:29 -0400
Subject: US Food Aid Propaganda
Message-ID: 


Earlier I had sent notice of an article to my mailing list 
(Freematt's Alerts) titled "One object of information warfare -- or 
"infowar"..."  the original located at 
.  Then as a 
watched the news tonight I heard again what I've been hearing on 
various American media ad infinitum that the US Military had dropped 
37,500 food packages along with the first wave of attacks on 
Afghanistan, on Sunday.  Realizing that there are several million 
refugees in the northern areas of Afghanistan, such a small number of 
food packages doesn't seem really that adequate.  But if you realize 
why the US Military would bother dropping such minuscule numbers of 
aid packages it only makes sense with a backdrop of PSYOPS.

"We call psychological operations (PSYOPS) the ultimate weapon," said 
retired Col. Jim Noll, who commanded the 13th Psychological 
Operations Battalion in the Persian Gulf War and helped develop 
tactics that led to the surrender of large numbers of Iraqi troops. 
For example, U.S. food distribution to Afghan refugees has 
"far-reaching psychological impact," Noll said."

My theory is that if you hear that the US is dropping food packages 
along with bombs it reinforces the propaganda that the US is doing 
this to "help" the Afghan people.  It doesn't matter from a 
psychological operations perspective if the aid is effective but 
rather it only matters if the target group thinks you're helping.  In 
this case the target audience being the Afghan refugees and the 
unwitting American media consumer.

I'm rather disappointed but certainly not surprised that the 
establishment media doesn't pick up on any of this.

Regards,  Matt-


**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week)
Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722  ICQ: 106212065   Archived at 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/
**************************************************************************




From leonf at perspicuity.net  Tue Oct  9 23:27:12 2001
From: leonf at perspicuity.net (Leon F.)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 01:27:12 -0500
Subject: US Food Aid Propaganda
Message-ID: 

Why has the news media not noticed that a similar program is not 
available to Iraq? I thought we were starving the Iraq citizens in 
order to inspire them to throw out their worthless leader. I'm very 
confused now.

Leon Felkins

###


From anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org  Tue Oct  9 23:40:01 2001
From: anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org (Incognito Innominatus)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 01:40:01 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Palestinian police want the help of israel
Message-ID: <2165fe43e59a01f67b7679bf98880539@mixmaster.nullify.org>


After bloody crashes between palestinian police
and palestinian demonstrators, Palestinian authority
today asked Israel for riot gear, according to 
Zionist tv tonight.

The Zionist defense department may or may not
go along with the request, which includes
teargas grenades.

Today the palestinian authority ordered an
investigation on the riots.
All schools in Gaza strip were ordered to
remain closed today.




From drevil at sidereal.kz  Tue Oct  9 18:52:56 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil)
Date: 10 Oct 2001 01:52:56 -0000
Subject: Holiday in Antarctica (was Re: Anthrax Case Number Three)
In-Reply-To: <3BC3A81C.3FA18B63@tabun.com> (message from Tabla bin Rasa
  on Tue, 09 Oct 2001 18:45:00 -0700)
References: <3BC3A81C.3FA18B63@tabun.com>
Message-ID: <20011010015256.22540.qmail@sidereal.kz>


> They still have to try out their chemistry skills.

I think that any national government puts its citizens at risk, so I
am now logged in from a sealed yurt in Antarctica via Inmarsat.  I
hope I'll be safe here.  Eh Senor Escobar, this place is very cold,
but there's room in the yurt for you if you would like.  You can grow
some primo Antarctic hydro-kind here if you like.  White powder
everywhere!  Come on over for some old-fashioned Kazakh hospitality
and a plate of penguin a l'orange, amigo!  Si si!

I'll be sure to post some photos when they start 3G service here:
"Here's me with some snow.  The white stuff over there is also snow.
That white thing there is a polar bear.  Yeah, I know they don't have
polar bears in Antarctica.  He's just visiting."




From maxinux at bigfoot.com  Wed Oct 10 01:57:10 2001
From: maxinux at bigfoot.com (maxinux)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 01:57:10 -0700
Subject: al Qaeda website?
Message-ID: <20011010015710.B1351@spheno.jokeslayer.com>


> 
> 
> compare with
> 
> 
> 
> Every thought how bad the net would be if google went away?


These dont do much actually.. the actual page is dead... the other is a nice cached link, index4.html has some more stuff.. 
the really interesting thing on index6.. it links to azzam.com, which also does not work, BUT the cache.. the cache my 
friends, has some fun stuff

Bin Ladins Articles of declaration of jihad and mujahideen...
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=cache%3Awww.azzam.com%2Fhtml%2Farticlesdeclaration.htm

Have a nice read.. Ill include an exerpt after this
Max

DECLARATION OF WAR AGAINST 
                                          THE  AMERICANS OCCUPYING THE 
                                           LAND OF THE TWO HOLY PLACES

                                           "Expel the Infidels from the Arab Peninsula"

                                    A Message from Usama bin Muhammad bin Laden unto his Muslim 
                                Brethren all over the World generally, and in the Arab Peninsula specifically 
...
During the oil boom of the Middle East during the 1970s, Mohammad bin Ladin, an ordinary from Yemen came and settled with his 
family in Saudi Arabia. He opened a
business which later proved to be on of the biggest construction companies in the entire Middle East: the Bin Ladin 
Corporation. This company was involved in the
construction of roads, buildings, mosques, airports and the entire infrastructure of many of the countries in the Arabian 
Gulf. Usama was one of the sons of Mohammad
bin Ladin. Being an ordinary young man, he was more pious than his brothers, and was deeply affected by the involvement of his 
family's company in rebuilding the two
...
(and ends with:)
...
Our Lord, bless Muhammad, Your slave and messenger, his family and descendants, and companions and salute him with a 
(becoming) salutation. 

And our last supplication is: All praise  is due to Allah . 

Usamah bin Muhammad bin Laden 

Friday, 9/4/1417 A.H (23/8/1996 CE)  Hindukush Mountains, Khurasan, Afghanistan. 


========================================
kind of an interesting read.. enjoy all -Max




From dwighthines at mindspring.com  Tue Oct  9 23:29:14 2001
From: dwighthines at mindspring.com (Dwight Hines)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 02:29:14 -0400
Subject: Matt, this is unfair>  Re: US Food Aid Propaganda
Message-ID: 

This is lowballing.  Look at how the folks gave time and money and supplies
to the people and their families who were wiped out in NYC.   That was not
propaganda.

Look at what is planned, not just by Bush and Blair, but Chretien, and
others, to help rebuild, including lots and lots of food (like 8 million
tons to move in as soon as it is stable there).  The food drop is obviously
of psyops value, but at 4 bucks a package, plus transport costs, it is a far
cry from leaflets and radio announcements.

Just to be fair, put it into context of what the USA did for Japan when
McArthur said send me bread or send me rifles.  We sent lots of bread, as
well as medical and construction crews.

dh

###


From attila at hun.org  Tue Oct  9 22:12:14 2001
From: attila at hun.org (attila!)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 05:12:14 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: The Case For Anarchy
Message-ID: <20011010051214.DAC1D3465A@hun.org>

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From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Oct  9 12:32:45 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 05:32:45 +1000
Subject: America need therapy
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011010052333.00a50e60@pop.useoz.com>


End of the hydrocarbon age?I wonder how the simulations of nuclear strikes 
on saudi oil fields are going
in the new airy pentagon.(bring the outdoors in!)
Also massoud,reagan and some others would surely agree with chairman tim on 
talking(or waving)to the press
being harmful.
The press  inc CIA elements seem keen to revive the clipper.It should be 
our duty to remind them they may be
the ones who are clipped.




From nobody at remailer.privacy.at  Tue Oct  9 21:50:04 2001
From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 06:50:04 +0200
Subject: Talking to the Press Considered Harmful
Message-ID: <11b1f1f89c8d91902ec917ad87c3403c@remailer.privacy.at>


Tim May wrote:

>Expressing my belief about what should be done to many people.

>Deal with it, or don't.

what's the point of having beliefs if one refuses to live by them? 




From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Oct 10 05:26:05 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 07:26:05 -0500
Subject: Bioterrorism Articles Made Available Free By JAMA
Message-ID: <3BC43E5D.5B7C2CC@ssz.com>


http://unisci.com/stories/20014/1010011.htm
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From baydoun at dm.net.lb  Tue Oct  9 23:09:33 2001
From: baydoun at dm.net.lb (Jihad Baydoun)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 08:09:33 +0200
Subject: Know More About Islam
Message-ID: <774660CE853.AJTFDE@sun10.dm.net.lb>

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From xeni at xeni.net  Wed Oct 10 08:46:35 2001
From: xeni at xeni.net (Xeni Jardin)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 08:46:35 -0700
Subject: OK, folks, the Bert-Osama connection is for real
Message-ID: 


new evidence emerges:

(from Frank Davis on the pho list.)

This Dutch news article features a crystal-clear photo of the poster
whose author must have used this file, from an "Evil Bert" parody site
as a source image:

< http://www.angelfire.com/de/cheatsbert/p3laden.html>

other legit wire service photos of the Osama bin Bert poster from a
Bangladesh anti-American rally:



So does this mean we carpet-bomb Sesame Street as a community that
harbors, aids, and abets those who facilitate terrorism?

-----------
Xeni Jardin
xeni at xeni.net | www.xeni.net | YIM: xeni_jardin




From xeni at xeni.net  Wed Oct 10 09:05:15 2001
From: xeni at xeni.net (Xeni Jardin)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:05:15 -0700
Subject: Bert-Bin Laden: Declan explains it all
Message-ID: 


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-politech at politechbot.com
[mailto:owner-politech at politechbot.com]On Behalf Of Declan McCullagh
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 8:24 AM
To: politech at politechbot.com
Subject: FC: Muppets at war: Sesame Street's Bert in pro-Bin Laden
poster



---

The Bangladeshi poster:
http://www.tctubantia.nl/CDA/regioportal/1%2c2078%2c1654__772741_%2c00.html
http://harvard.pawlo.com/bangladesh.jpg
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/nm/20011009/wl/imdf09102001085522a.html

The Bert-Osama clip art's origins:
http://www.angelfire.com/de/cheatsbert/p3laden.html
http://www.fractalcow.com/bert/bert.htm

---

http://www.wired.com/news/conflict/0,2100,47450,00.html

   Osama Has a New Friend
   By Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com)
   7:18 a.m. Oct. 10, 2001 PDT
   
   WASHINGTON -- Evil Bert, meet Evil Osama.
   
   Right now, the two appear to be inseparable -- at least on ubiquitous
   posters carried by pro-Taliban protesters.
   
   Devotees of freak-humor websites will recall the infamous "Bert is
   Evil" page, a shrine to the gourd-like Sesame Street character, which
   offers compelling photographic evidence of the muppet consorting with
   Hitler, the KKK and, of course, Jerry Springer.

   Now, in a move that defies all rules of logic, a doctored photo
   showing Bert with the world's most-wanted terrorist, Osama bin Laden,
   seems to have made its way into an anti-American Islamic protest in
   Bangladesh.
   
   Reuters photographs of a rally this week organized by
   Jaamiat-e-Talabaye Arabia, a radical Islamic organization, show that
   protesters created a pro-bin Laden sign out of a collage of photos
   they apparently lifted from Internet sites.
   
   But -- is it fate or coincidence? -- the sign featured a Bert muppet
   sitting on the left side of the man believed to be responsible for the
   bloodiest terrorist attack in U.S. history.

   [...]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------
POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list
You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice.
Declan McCullagh's photographs are at http://www.mccullagh.org/
To subscribe to Politech: http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html
This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/
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From WalkerBill at aol.com  Wed Oct 10 06:09:40 2001
From: WalkerBill at aol.com (WalkerBill at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:09:40 EDT
Subject: US Food Aid Propaganda
Message-ID: 

   yeah, what is 37,000 food packages? 20 tons? less than one 
planeload... meanwhile the food aid that was supporting 5 million 
Afghans is cut off.

###


From declan at well.com  Wed Oct 10 06:14:25 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:14:25 -0400
Subject: Talking to the Press Considered Harmful
In-Reply-To: <7F6D52E4-BD36-11D5-8912-0050E439C473@got.net>; from
  tcmay@got.net on Tue, Oct 09, 2001 at 09:23:03PM -0700
References: <20011010001203.A6096@cluebot.com>
  <7F6D52E4-BD36-11D5-8912-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <20011010091425.A4465@cluebot.com>


On Tue, Oct 09, 2001 at 09:23:03PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> Which shows? When/

I go on CNN about once every month or two. Usually "Morning Edition."

-Declan




From declan at well.com  Wed Oct 10 06:20:29 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:20:29 -0400
Subject: who wants to be a millionaire
In-Reply-To: ; from wolf@priori.net on Tue, Oct 09, 2001 at 11:03:39PM -0700
References: 
  
Message-ID: <20011010092029.B4465@cluebot.com>


On Tue, Oct 09, 2001 at 11:03:39PM -0700, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote:
> (On second thought, after reading this collection of quotes, I wouldn't be
> surprised if "mattd" AKA "Matt Taylor" were actually Agent Jeff Gordon.
> They certainly share the same obsession. When was Gordon's last psych
> eval?)

No, I've written about "mattd" in the past, and, unless the Australian
news media is lying to us, he's a self-professed anarchist who got in
legal trouble for vandalizing a McDonalds on May Day, I recall. He's
also entertained himself -- and us -- by taunting cops around the
globe with AP-threats on indymedia sites. Now he's found the
cypherpunks list and is apparently here to stay. At least until his
sentencing...

-Declan




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Wed Oct 10 06:33:55 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:33:55 -0400
Subject: Google and the Net
Message-ID: 


> Steve Schear[SMTP:schear at lvcm.com]
> 
> 
> At 11:40 PM 10/9/2001 +0200, Nomen Nescio wrote:
> 
> >
> >It's unfortunate that we have to rely on Google.  Imagine an ongoing,
> >distributed project to cache the web.  Volunteers could keep tabs on
> >a subset of corporate and personal web pages and cache old versions
> >when changes are made.  Rewriting history becomes that much harder.
> >And it's certainly a better use of computers than seti at home.
> 
> This is actually an excellent application front end for a Mojo Nation type
> 
> system, as the data is redundant and distributed.
> 
You get an interesting recursion problem arising - does your 'memory
of the web' site include sites which contain archives for the purpose of
being 'memory of the web'? Shades of Godel....

Peter Trei




From xeni at xeni.net  Wed Oct 10 09:53:05 2001
From: xeni at xeni.net (Xeni Jardin)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:53:05 -0700
Subject: OK, folks, the Bert-Osama connection is for real
In-Reply-To: <20011010121433.A8384@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: 


> A small point of netiquette: Xeni, you've been sending posts to some
> "talk at strangelove.cc" list, and copying cypherpunks. When cypherpunks
> subscribers reply to all, they get this message:
> 
>         : Sorry, only subscribers may post.


My bad. Extremely sorry about that. Won't happen again. 




From jya at pipeline.com  Wed Oct 10 09:55:21 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:55:21 -0700
Subject: RIAA secret meeting memo fake
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <200110101401.KAA15842@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>


We're pursuing the matter though Tony Smith at the Register
seems to be washing his hands of it. And we have asked a couple
of wizards help check out the source of the messages we have
received, now two -- the latest last evening (with a possibility
the source is a provocateur of the infotainment industry aiming
for sympathy legislation).

Here's our latest message to our always trustworthy source:

-----

Response to your message last evening:

The Register has today recanted its story about the RIAA meeting.

How do you want to handle this now? Ready to be named,
your full messages published on Cryptome, or do you want
to provide substantiation for your messages and keep your
identity concealed? Or perhaps another thoughtful approach
to loft this story to a higher level. Interest will be high for a few
more hours -- or many days if you come through with authentic 
evidence. Want to talk on the phone, be on TV with a mask, 
then fax us your meeting notes for one of the prime participants, 
provide proof of employment with a media corporation. All as 
easily done as this message.

John
Tel: 212-873-8700
Fax: 212-787-6102

-----

We get sucker punched occasionally and don't mind for it allows
respondents to critique and smoke out phonies, which has long
been big business, name your titans of fakery in all fields, not
least entertainment, media, gov, mil and intel.

Indeed, without sophisticated fakery, deception, disinformation,
lying, cheating, exploitation of the yokels, lying about the truth, 
this list would have little reason to exist, not to say a huge swatch 
of the globe's economy, led, yes, yes, by the USA USA.

Valenti claims the interests of the USA USA are identical to MPAA
MPAA, and why not RIAA RIAA and the supplicants for billions
like NY NY.




From mischief at lanesbry.com  Tue Oct  9 17:09:12 2001
From: mischief at lanesbry.com (Ralph Seberry)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:09:12 +1000
Subject: Google and the Net
In-Reply-To: <910ab3ffda50b37fd079c10a14793d46@dizum.com>; from
  nobody@dizum.com on Tue, Oct 09, 2001 at 11:40:14PM +0200
References: <910ab3ffda50b37fd079c10a14793d46@dizum.com>
Message-ID: <20011010100912.A4785@localhost>


On Tuesday, 09 Oct 2001 at 23:40, Nomen Nescio  wrote:
> > >> Steve Mynott[SMTP:steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk] wrote:
> > >> Every thought how bad the net would be if google went away?
> > >>
> > > Actually, us old timers remember what it was like before google,
> >
> > Hypertext in general is doubleplus good.
> >
> > I remember Gopher, Archie, and all of those crufty tools.
> 
> You are all missing the point.  Google was being praised for its specific
> feature of acting as an internet-wide cache of old versions of web pages.

You cut out some lines:
> Actually, us old timers remember what it was like before google,
> or even altavista (the first real search engine). Heck, some of us
> remember what it was like before Usenet...

someone wrote about Altavista's cache of USENET back in '93.
Cypherpunkly issues of your past coming back to haunt you,
and blurring of private/professional identity followed.

As to how long google can be an archiver of the whole net...
altavista went about 6 years before its owner started looking
to sell it. And that didn't carry binary content. Now that's
owned by google as well.




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Oct 10 10:10:05 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:10:05 -0700
Subject: Comments on US Food Aid Propaganda
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Wednesday, October 10, 2001, at 09:52 AM, Matthew Gaylor wrote:
> Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 16:47:47 +1000
> From: Danny Yee 
> To: Matthew Gaylor 
> Cc: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
> Subject: Re: US Food Aid Propaganda
> Mail-Followup-To: Matthew Gaylor ,
>
>
> Air drops of food aid are a resort of last desperation; most of it will
> never be found or used.  So dropping 40 000 food packages is definitely
> just a media stunt -- I can't see it having any real effect at all on
> the Afghan population it's supposed to be feeding.
>

Another way to do the math:

-- 3 to 5 million Afghanis on the move, abandoning tiny farms and 
villages

-- 40,000 orange food packlets, of which maybe 10,000 will be found in 
the mountains and  ravines

However, showing technicians pushing these orange packlets out the back 
of a transport plane made for good PR.

Fact is, the peasant population of Afghanistan needs to be reduced by 
another 5-8 million. The West Nile and Crimea viruses introduced into 
the camps cannot do the whole job. Starvation must do its part as well.


--Tim May, Corralitos, California
Quote of the Month: "It is said that there are no atheists in foxholes; 
perhaps there are no true libertarians in times of terrorist attacks." 
--Cathy Young, "Reason Magazine," both enemies of liberty.




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Oct 10 10:16:24 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:16:24 -0700
Subject: US Food Aid Propaganda
In-Reply-To: <3BC48042.1090004@dragonsweb.org>
Message-ID: <882D48F0-BDA2-11D5-8912-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Wednesday, October 10, 2001, at 10:07 AM, James B. DiGriz wrote:

> John Young wrote:
>
>> Peter Trei foolishly wrote:
>>> The US airdrops replaced, at the very maximum, less then
>>> 2.5% of the food whose delivery was prevented by the bombing.
>>>
>>> I'm reminded of the recent corporate ad from RJ Reynolds, where they 
>>> made of deal of delivering some amount (less
>>> then 10 tons, I think) or aid to Kosovo. That amounted to
>>> a single truckload. They then spent many times the cost
>>> of the aid on airtime to trumpet their humanitarian efforts.
>>>
>> This is the kind of statement that deserves reporting among the 
>> 250,000 tips the FBI has received on its finger-a-terrorist website 
>> hotline.
>> Fucking traitors always disclose the classified bottom line math 
>> behind the body counts.
>
> If a result of the bombing is to make humanitarian aid both easier and 
> ultimately less necessary then it'll have been worth it. Not that 
> that's the reason for it.
>

You think?

Wiping out the airfields, knocking out the lines of supply, all of this 
is essential to getting several million Afghanis to flee onto the 
mountain trails, where the snows will soon get them. This is essential 
to rooting out terrorism by reducing the terrorist breeding grounds by 
several million.

But, cheer up! 15,000 more orange food packlets are being scattered from 
15,000 feet. And, I hear, at least 400 emergency tents are being dropped 
along the Khyber Pass.

Operation Final Solution should be successful by, say, January 20th.

We won't be able to do Bomb Damage Assessment until the spring thaw, 
however.


--Tim May
"Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and
strangled with her panty hose,  is somehow morally superior to a woman 
explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound"




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Wed Oct 10 07:16:59 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:16:59 -0400
Subject: US Food Aid Propaganda
Message-ID: 


> Matthew Gaylor[SMTP:freematt at coil.com] writes:
> 
	[...]
> Then as a 
> watched the news tonight I heard again what I've been hearing on 
> various American media ad infinitum that the US Military had dropped 
> 37,500 food packages along with the first wave of attacks on 
> Afghanistan, on Sunday.  Realizing that there are several million 
> refugees in the northern areas of Afghanistan, such a small number of 
> food packages doesn't seem really that adequate. 
[...]
> My theory is that if you hear that the US is dropping food packages 
> along with bombs it reinforces the propaganda that the US is doing 
> this to "help" the Afghan people.  It doesn't matter from a 
> psychological operations perspective if the aid is effective but 
> rather it only matters if the target group thinks you're helping.  In 
> this case the target audience being the Afghan refugees and the 
> unwitting American media consumer.
	[...]
> Regards,  Matt-
> 
This is one of those things where you can run the numbers. 

     ...37500 meals dropped on Sunday. The packages don't 
look like they weighed much more than a pound. Lets be very 
generous, and say 1 kilo.

That's 37.5 metric tons in one night, max. Sounds like a lot?

According to the World Food Program website (www.wfp.org),
the UN is trying to truck in 52,000 tons a month. Assuming a
30 day month, that's 1733 tons/day. 

The US bombing shut down the UN aid delivery for a few days,
(it's now going ahead again, even under fire, because the 
need is so critical). 

The US airdrops replaced, at the very maximum, less then
2.5% of the food whose delivery was prevented by the 
bombing.

I'm reminded of the recent corporate ad from RJ Reynolds, 
where they made of deal of delivering some amount (less
then 10 tons, I think) or aid to Kosovo. That amounted to
a single truckload. They then spent many times the cost
of the aid on airtime to trumpet their humanitarian efforts.

Peter Trei




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From citizenq at hushmail.com  Wed Oct 10 10:39:46 2001
From: citizenq at hushmail.com (citizenq at hushmail.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:39:46 -0700
Subject: too much credit (Re: US Food Aid Propaganda)
Message-ID: <200110101739.f9AHdkt33698@mailserver1c.hushmail.com>


Principle of Mr. Occam:

Do beware of attributing to malice that which can fully be accounted for by incompetence.

>>> made of deal of delivering some amount (less
>>> then 10 tons, I think) or aid to Kosovo. That amounted to
>>> a single truckload. They then spent many times the cost
>>> of the aid on airtime to trumpet their humanitarian efforts.
>>>
>> This is the kind of statement that deserves reporting among the 
>> 250,000 tips the FBI has received on its finger-a-terrorist website 
>> hotline.
>> Fucking traitors always disclose the classified bottom line math 
>> behind the body counts.
>

> If a result of the bombing is to make humanitarian aid both easier and 
> ultimately less necessary then it'll have been worth it. Not that 
> that's the reason for it.
>

You think?

Wiping out the airfields, knocking out the lines of supply, all of this 
is essential to getting several million Afghanis to flee onto the 
mountain trails, where the snows will soon get them. This is essential 
to rooting out terrorism by reducing the terrorist breeding grounds by 
several million.

But, cheer up! 15,000 more orange food packlets are being scattered from 
15,000 feet. And, I hear, at least 400 emergency tents are being dropped 
along the Khyber Pass.

Operation Final Solution should be successful by, say, January 20th.

We won't be able to do Bomb Damage Assessment until the spring thaw, 
however.




From wb8foz at nrk.com  Wed Oct 10 07:49:19 2001
From: wb8foz at nrk.com (David Lesher)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:49:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: FBI's Scarfo Keysniffer
Message-ID: <200110101449.KAA03525@sigma.nrk.com>


The Feebes have come up with some "details" on the keyboard
sniffer they used in Scarfo:

EPIC has it up:





-- 
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz at nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Wed Oct 10 11:23:54 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:23:54 -0700
Subject: who wants to be a millionaire
Message-ID: 


"Nomen Nescio" writes:

> Not so fast.  How easy is it to fake your
> own death?

Very easy.  It's been done numerous times in murder-for-hire cases.

> You have to come up with a fake death
> certificate.

I'm sure the authorities will be more than happy to comply.  By the way,
Nomen, what do you know about death certificates?  Don't you think someone
going to the courthouse and asking to see one would come under some unwanted
attention under the circumstances?

> Obviously in a game such as AP, verifying
> death is one of the most important aspects.

Duh.  That's just ONE of the reasons AP won't work.

> It might be that only certain Death
> Certificate Authorities (DCAs) come to
> be accepted for players in AP.

So now AP needs a new entity to be workable (check out Occam's razor,
Nomen).  Please explain who would become a DCA and how they would make money
being a DCA.  I'm sure I (or most any other Cypherpunk, for that matter)
will be able to point out the holes in your argument in a couple of minutes.

> This could be a lucrative new business op
> for RSA/Verisign.

Have they expressed an interest?  It is naiveti in the extreme to seriously
think they would even consider it.

> In addition it may be agreed that the
> payoff doesn't happen right away, but
> only after the party has been gone for
> some minimum period of time, say a year
> or two.  Not many targets will be willing
> to disappear for two years from public
> view solely in order to cause trouble for
> the AP game.

Close, but no cigar.  Another 30 seconds of thought on the matter reveals
the flaws.  So first you need a DCA to make AP work.  Now you need a
hitherto not required delay for the theoretical DCA to do it's job.  So a
potential hit man has to think, "Maybe this guy is dead, maybe not.  Maybe
the people who've pledged money will pay me if I off the guy, maybe not.
Now that it looks like he's dead, I can either wait up to two years or I can
assume he's dead, put myself at considerable risk trying to find him (under
heightened security if he IS alive), kill him without getting caught and
wait two years to collect my bounty.  Oh wait, if I kill a guy who everyone
already think is dead, I'll a) have to prove he was alive, b) prove that I
killed him, c) prove that the day I killed him was the correct date and d)
still wait two years for the imaginary DCA to verify the death."

Oh yeah, that'll work.

> And even if it does happen, investors in
> the removal of Mr. Target will enjoy at
> least the partial satisfaction of getting
> him out of the way for a couple of years.

Mr. Target only stays hidden for two years if he wants to collect the reward
himself.  If you just wants to fuck with the AP system, he disappears for a
few weeks, reappears and does it again.  Rinse and repeat as often as
needed.  What hit man it really going to run the risks involved?  What
"investors" (you said pledges, that's not an investment) are going to stay
on for the long haul?  And what about the "free rider" problem?

> Then if he does reappear, follow-on bets
> will be established with even more stringent
> conditions for verification and payoff.

Yeah, that'll really motivate a hit man.

Next.


 S a n d y




From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu  Wed Oct 10 08:54:13 2001
From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:54:13 -0400
Subject: OK, folks, the Bert-Osama connection is for real
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <20011010115413.A14566@ils.unc.edu>


Does this mean that OBL is gay, too (like Bert)?  That might explain
a few things....

More on Bert & Ernie (these links work, unlike two of Xeni's):
	http://www.urbanlegends.com/tv/bert_and_ernie_gay.html
	http://www.ki.org/rwgill/berternie.html

  -- Greg

On Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 08:46:35AM -0700, Xeni Jardin wrote:
> 
> new evidence emerges:
> 
> (from Frank Davis on the pho list.)
> 
> This Dutch news article features a crystal-clear photo of the poster
> whose author must have used this file, from an "Evil Bert" parody site
> as a source image:
> 
> < http://www.angelfire.com/de/cheatsbert/p3laden.html>
> 
> other legit wire service photos of the Osama bin Bert poster from a
> Bangladesh anti-American rally:
> 
> 
> 
> So does this mean we carpet-bomb Sesame Street as a community that
> harbors, aids, and abets those who facilitate terrorism?
> 
> -----------
> Xeni Jardin
> xeni at xeni.net | www.xeni.net | YIM: xeni_jardin




From auto301094 at hushmail.com  Wed Oct 10 12:00:22 2001
From: auto301094 at hushmail.com (auto301094 at hushmail.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 12:00:22 -0700
Subject: No Spooks, Please. We're Academics
Message-ID: <200110101900.f9AJ0Mw69959@mailserver1.hushmail.com>

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From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org  Wed Oct 10 09:07:03 2001
From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 12:07:03 -0400
Subject: One-way airline tickets considered suspicious
Message-ID: <3BC47227.9070001@dragonsweb.org>


quoting from memory from the high-caliber discussion found on the "John 
Boy & Billy Big Show" this A.M. May be off on the details but I got the 
gist,

*click radio on"

[Female security "expert", did not catch her name]

...police are doing a good job of trying [that's a direct quote] to 
search cars parked in front of buildings [etc]...but people [now I'm 
gonna compress somewhat and use the "p" word, which she danced around.] 
should not get paranoid, see terrorists under every bush, and give up 
civil liberties, because that means the terrorists win.

....

[Some retired gasbag of a general these guys trot out for every 
altercation, police action, etc. Tom something or other.]

...I have to disagree emphatically with that. Look at Israel, where 90% 
of suicide bombers are stopped because they're on constant alert. It's 
going to take an increased, sustained, constant state of awareness of 
what's going on around you....etc....etc...

[discussion of suspicious parcels "forgotten" elided]

[Terrorism Dr. Joyce] Oh, absolutely, Take one-way plane trips, for 
example. How many people need one way tickets? Why would they want them? 
  [Insert additional comments from the show's peanut gallery here] If 
someone purchases a one-way ticket, they should be asked why.

*click off*

If an airline wants to search my luggage as a precondition of honoring 
my ticket, they're within their rights, insulting as that may be. My 
reasons for traveling are none of their business, though. Like anybody 
up to no good wouldn't have a convincing lie ready.

America, get a fucking grip.

jbdigriz

--
"Sir, you've purchased a one-way ticket to Maranello. Mind telling me 
what your plans are?





From declan at well.com  Wed Oct 10 09:11:04 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 12:11:04 -0400
Subject: OK, folks, the Bert-Osama connection is for real
In-Reply-To: ; from
  xeni@xeni.net on Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 08:46:35AM -0700
References: 
Message-ID: <20011010121104.C8211@cluebot.com>


See also:

http://www.wired.com/news/conflict/0,2100,47450,00.html
   WASHINGTON -- Evil Bert, meet Evil Osama.
   Right now, the two appear to be inseparable -- at least on ubiquitous
   posters carried by pro-Taliban protesters.

Wired News has confirmed with Reuters that the Bert image is in the
original photo.

-Declan


On Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 08:46:35AM -0700, Xeni Jardin wrote:
> new evidence emerges:
> 
> (from Frank Davis on the pho list.)




From dbob at semtex.com  Wed Oct 10 12:11:44 2001
From: dbob at semtex.com (Dynamite Bob)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 12:11:44 -0700
Subject: Your Blueprints, Sir?
Message-ID: <3BC49D70.3BC4FA6C@semtex.com>


An arab asking for blueprints right now is on par with
Chekov's "take us to your nuclear vessels" line...

FBI monitoring suspicious
blueprint requests

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/10/10/rec.fbi.buildings/index.html

                  WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The FBI is asking architects
                  and building engineers across the country to report
any
                  suspicious requests for building plans, especially for
                  federal buildings and projects, according to two
industry
                  groups. 

                  Since Sept. 11, a number of design and engineering
firms
                  have contacted their professional organizations about
recent
                  or past "unusual" requests for blueprints. These
requests
                  came both before and after the attacks. 

                  According to Phil Simon, a spokesman for the American
                  Institute of Architects, the requests included plans
for
                  structures such as airport terminals and towers,
federal
                  office buildings, parking garages and museums. 

                  Simon would not characterize the
                  number of these requests but said the
                  subjects of the requests, and the
                  details asked for, raised some
                  concerns. 

                  The American Institute of Architects
                  and the National Society of
                  Professional Engineers reported their
                  concerns to the FBI. The groups then
                  sent a joint letter to their members,
                  saying "The FBI is advising us to
                  heighten our awareness." 

                  CNN Radio obtained a copy of that
                  letter, sent in the past few days,
                  asking architects and engineers to
                  notify the nearest FBI bureau field
                  office of any unusual requests. 

                  An AIA official said there may be
                  nothing sinister about the blueprint
                  requests. Often students ask for
                  blueprints as part of their studies. 






From sandfort at mindspring.com  Wed Oct 10 12:11:49 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 12:11:49 -0700
Subject: who wants to be a millionaire
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011011060238.00a55eb0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: 


So that definition of "free range banks" is....?

> Clearstream and another clearinghouse,
> Euroclear ... 400 banks on nauru...

These are "free range banks"?  Again, definition, please.

> What if hawala works,Hawala's good.

It does work--for its intended purpose.  However, that doesn't mean it would
work in your application.  Please back up your supposition.

> As sandy is such a doubting thomas...

Nope, I just know more than you do.  :'D


 S a n d y




From declan at well.com  Wed Oct 10 09:14:33 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 12:14:33 -0400
Subject: OK, folks, the Bert-Osama connection is for real
In-Reply-To: ; from
  xeni@xeni.net on Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 08:46:35AM -0700
References: 
Message-ID: <20011010121433.A8384@cluebot.com>


A small point of netiquette: Xeni, you've been sending posts to some
"talk at strangelove.cc" list, and copying cypherpunks. When cypherpunks
subscribers reply to all, they get this message:

        : Sorry, only subscribers may post.

Perhaps it would be possible to send two messages, one to "talk" and
the other to cypherpunks, instead of copying cypherpunkes on messages
sent to a private list?

-Declan




From dbob at semtex.com  Wed Oct 10 12:15:09 2001
From: dbob at semtex.com (Dynamite Bob)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 12:15:09 -0700
Subject: CNN sucking Powell's dick
Message-ID: <3BC49E3D.DF24F9A0@semtex.com>


Wednesday October 10 10:48 AM ET 

Terror Statement May Hold Secret Msg.

WASHINGTON (AP) - Secretary of State Colin Powell cautioned on Wednesday
that the statements
made by Osama bin Laden's terrorist organization and broadcast on
televisions around the world may
contain ``some kind of message.'' 

Powell said analysts were looking at the statements, including the one
made Tuesday by al-Qaida
spokesman Abu Ghaith praising the Sept. 11 terror attacks on the United
States and warning there would
be more. 

The secretary of state, appearing on CNN, also thanked the network for
limiting its broadcast of the
statements. 

``I think it's responsible on the part of CNN to shade that a little bit
so that we don`t have it coming full
force at us and with the potential of perhaps conveying some kind of
message,'' he said. 

CNN did not immediately return phone calls seeking comment about what
exactly they will air in the
future. 

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/ap/20011010/us/attacks_cnn_1.html




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Wed Oct 10 12:20:42 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 12:20:42 -0700
Subject: CNN sucking Powell's dick
In-Reply-To: <3BC49E3D.DF24F9A0@semtex.com>
Message-ID: 


"Dynamite Bob" wrote:

> WASHINGTON (AP) - Secretary of State Colin
> Powell cautioned on Wednesday that the
> statements made by Osama bin Laden's
> terrorist organization and broadcast on
> televisions around the world may contain
> ``some kind of message.''

First it was the Internet, now it's TV.  Geesh, haven't these guys ever
heard of short-wave?  All that Bin Laden has to do is broadcast the words,
"Allah akbar" and his operatives execute "Plan A," "inshaalha" and they
execute "Plan B," "Bert & Ernie" and they execute "Plan C."  They don't need
American TV, folks.  (Reminds me of the aliens in INDEPENDENCE DAY, using
our communications satellites...)


 S a n d y




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Wed Oct 10 12:24:05 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 12:24:05 -0700
Subject: who wants to be a millionaire
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011011062451.00a612b0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: 


"mattd" wrote:

> Oh and i like spelling mistakes,evolution
> proceeds on dna spelling mistakes.

And just like you, most evolutionary spelling mistakes are useless.  You are
the weakest link.


 S a n d y




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Wed Oct 10 12:25:45 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 12:25:45 -0700
Subject: One-way airline tickets considered suspicious
Message-ID: <3BC4A0B9.92E5F3C6@lsil.com>


The point of airline security is to get the paying passengers safely
from point A to point B. The ID requirement is an UNWARRANTED invasion.
And I don't want to argue about how the BOR only applies to government
interactions not private contracts : it's the spirit of the thing
getting snuffed out that matters.

Mike




From madmullah at crosswinds.net  Wed Oct 10 09:34:23 2001
From: madmullah at crosswinds.net (madmullah)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 12:34:23 -0400
Subject: please ignore this test message to the list
Message-ID: <3BC4788F.F5AE37FE@crosswinds.net>



Squeeking wheel gets a kick or two.

--
 "It is the responsibility of intellectuals to speak the truth and to 
 expose lies."  -Noam Chomsky




From jya at pipeline.com  Wed Oct 10 12:45:14 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 12:45:14 -0700
Subject: US Food Aid Propaganda
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <200110101651.MAA30675@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>


Peter Trei foolishly wrote:

>The US airdrops replaced, at the very maximum, less then
>2.5% of the food whose delivery was prevented by the 
>bombing.
>
>I'm reminded of the recent corporate ad from RJ Reynolds, 
>where they made of deal of delivering some amount (less
>then 10 tons, I think) or aid to Kosovo. That amounted to
>a single truckload. They then spent many times the cost
>of the aid on airtime to trumpet their humanitarian efforts.

This is the kind of statement that deserves reporting among the 
250,000 tips the FBI has received on its finger-a-terrorist website 
hotline.

Fucking traitors always disclose the classified bottom line math 
behind the body counts.




From dbob at semtex.com  Wed Oct 10 12:48:56 2001
From: dbob at semtex.com (Dynamite Bob)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 12:48:56 -0700
Subject: compulsory youth education camps to synch hour of hate
Message-ID: <3BC4A628.ED541621@semtex.com>


Tuesday October 9 5:28 PM ET 

Paige Urges Schools to Recite Pledge

WASHINGTON (AP) - If all goes as planned, many of the nation's 52
million students will
simultaneously recite the Pledge of Allegiance on Friday. 

On Tuesday, Education Secretary Rod Paige urged all 107,000 public and
private elementary and
secondary schools to take part in a campaign organized by the nonprofit
Celebration U.S.A. 

In a letter sent to principals, Paige noted that since the Sept. 11
terrorist attacks, Americans have
supported the victims, their families, rescue workers and the military. 

``Today I ask students, teachers, parents and other proud Americans
across the country to join me in
showing our patriotism by reciting the Pledge of Allegiance at a single
time and with a unified voice,''
Paige wrote. ``We can send a loud and powerful message that will be
heard around the world: America is
`one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for
all.''' 

The pledge will be recited at 2 p.m. EDT on Oct. 12, and at the
corresponding times in the other U.S. time
zones. Paige will participate from a Washington-area school. 

Paige spokeswoman Lindsey Kozberg stressed that taking part in the
synchronized pledge recital is
voluntary. 

Villa Park, Calif.-based Celebration U.S.A., founded by a retired
teacher, distributes educational
materials to schools to help students learn about American democracy and
patriotism. 

The Pledge of Allegiance was first published in 1892, and has been
changed twice since - to substitute
``the flag of the United States of America'' for ``my flag'' in 1924 and
to add ``under God'' in 1954. It was
officially recognized by the U.S. government in 1942. 


http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/ap/20011009/us/attacks_pledge_1.html




From dbob at semtex.com  Wed Oct 10 12:51:09 2001
From: dbob at semtex.com (Dynamite Bob)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 12:51:09 -0700
Subject: dissing the US is hate speech in Kanada
Message-ID: <3BC4A6AD.6383EA83@semtex.com>


lenn Bohn and Kim Bolan
Vancouver Sun


                   Wednesday, October 10, 2001

                   A University of B.C. women's studies
                   professor who criticized U.S. foreign
                   policy has been accused of a hate crime --
                   publicly inciting hatred against
                   Americans.

                   An unidentified B.C. resident alleged Oct.
                   4 that assistant professor Sunera Thobani
                   violated the Criminal Code of Canada
                   during an Oct. 1 speech to a women's
                   conference in Ottawa, RCMP Corporal Michael
                   Labossiere of the B.C. hate crime unit said Tuesday.

                   Thobani, a former president of the National Action
                   Committee on the Status of Women, said in an
interview
                   Tuesday she had not heard anything about the
complaint
                   and she is curious to know who made it.

                   "This is just pure harassment," she said. "They are
trying
                   to silence dissent in this country."

                   Thobani said her speech was intended to explain how
                   U.S. foreign policy has affected life in many
countries of
                   the world.

                   "If you point to the factual record of U.S. foreign
policy,
                   you are now accused of spreading hate," she said. "It
                   really is unbelievable."

                   The RCMP's Labossiere wouldn't disclose any more
                   specifics about the complaint or the complainant. He
said
                   he forwarded the complaint to the hate crimes unit of
the
                   Ottawa-Carleton police force, which has jurisdiction
in
                   the area where the offence is alleged to have
occurred.

                   Ottawa police Detective Frank Corkery, a member of
                   Ottawa's hate crime unit, wouldn't confirm whether
                   police there are investigating Thobani.

                   Corkery said police generally don't discuss ongoing
                   investigations or reveal the subject of an
investigation
                   until charges are laid and it becomes public
knowledge.

                   However, the detective added: "Any complaint made to
                   the hate crimes section is taken seriously and is
                   investigated on the substance of the complaint.

                   Labossiere, who last week reported bomb threats had
                   been made against Islamic mosques in Vancouver and
                   Surrey, said he went public with the complaint
against
                   Thobani to show that majority groups can potentially
be
                   targets too.

                   "Here we have a complaint against someone who is
                   obviously from a visible minority, whom the
complainant
                   feels is promoting hate," he said.

                   "Normally, people think it's a white supremist or
                   Caucasians, promoting hate against visible minorities
. . .
                   We want to get the message out that it's wrong, all
                   around."

                   Section 319 of the Criminal Code of Canada allows for
a
                   jail sentence of less than two years for anyone
convicted
                   of the "public incitement of hatred" against an
                   identifiable group of people, when the comments lead
to
                   a breach of the peace.

                   An "identifiable group" is defined as any section of
the
                   public distinguished by colour, race, religion or
ethnic
                   origin.

                   However, the same section also provides some broadly
                   worded legal defences. For instance, no one can be
                   convicted "if the statements were relevant to any
subject
                   of public interest, the discussion of which was for
the
                   public benefit, and if on reasonable grounds he
believed
                   them to be true."

                   Murray Mollard, a lawyer and executive director of
the
                   B.C. Civil Liberties Association, said that, legally,
a
                   charge against Thobani would be an uphill battle for
the
                   prosecution.

                   Mollard also said the state shouldn't prosecute
someone
                   who criticizes public policies in a democratic forum.

                   "This is absolutely the wrong thing to do," he said.
"We
                   need to have an open debate about our response to
Sept.
                   11."

                   Thobani received a standing ovation at the Women's
                   Resistance Conference in Ottawa after she argued that
the
                   U.S. government -- not international terrorists -- is
the
                   most dangerous global force, "unleashing prolific
levels
                   of violence all over the world.

                   "From Chile to El Salvador, to Nicaragua to Iraq, the
                   path of U.S. foreign policy is soaked in blood," she
said
                   in comments that received front-page coverage in
                   Canada's daily newspapers, including The Vancouver
                   Sun.

                   Many Canadians said Thobani's speech was an ill-timed
                   and anti-American attack, while others accused the
                   mainstream news media of a McCarthy-style witch-hunt.

                   Thobani said Tuesday she has been stunned by the
                   reaction to her comments.

                   While she said she has received a lot of support, she
has
                   also been shocked by hateful e-mails and telephone
calls
                   not just from within Canada, but from the United
States.

                   "It is just unbelievable what it is like," Thobani
said. "I
                   am just getting sent all this porn and hate mail."

                   She said the past week has made the controversies
during
                   her term as president of the National Action
Committee
                   on the Status of Women "seem like a piece of cake."

                   But, she said she doesn't want to restrict her life
because
                   of the hate mail and threats, even though it has
disrupted
                   her life and her job.

                   "I have security outside my class," Thobani said.

                   Convictions for public incitement of hatred are rare
in
                   Canada, but not unprecedented.

                   In 1982, Alberta public high school teacher Jim
Keegstra
                   was fired for teaching students that the Holocaust --
                   where millions of Jews died in Nazi concentration
camps
                   -- was a fabrication of a "Jewish conspiracy" that
wanted
                   to destroy Christianity. The courts later convicted
                   Keegstra of promoting hatred and ordered him to do
200
                   hours of community service work.

                   In 1999, a Christian evangelist in Ontario was
convicted
                   of inciting hatred against Muslims in flyers he
distributed
                   and in a phone-line message. Mark Harding received a
                   three-month conditional sentence and was required to
                   perform more than 300 hours of voluntary service for
the
                   Islamic community.




From freematt at coil.com  Wed Oct 10 09:52:44 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 12:52:44 -0400
Subject: Comments on US Food Aid Propaganda
Message-ID: 


[Note from Matthew Gaylor:  The food packages in question each 
provide roughly 2200 calories and are dropped from around 10,000 feet 
with a parachute like device attached to prevent injury when they 
land.  Bill Walker, Peter Trei and Danny Yee below have the best 
commentary.]


From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org  Wed Oct 10 10:07:14 2001
From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 13:07:14 -0400
Subject: US Food Aid Propaganda
References: <200110101651.MAA30675@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3BC48042.1090004@dragonsweb.org>


John Young wrote:

> Peter Trei foolishly wrote:
> 
> 
>>The US airdrops replaced, at the very maximum, less then
>>2.5% of the food whose delivery was prevented by the 
>>bombing.
>>
>>I'm reminded of the recent corporate ad from RJ Reynolds, 
>>where they made of deal of delivering some amount (less
>>then 10 tons, I think) or aid to Kosovo. That amounted to
>>a single truckload. They then spent many times the cost
>>of the aid on airtime to trumpet their humanitarian efforts.
>>
> 
> This is the kind of statement that deserves reporting among the 
> 250,000 tips the FBI has received on its finger-a-terrorist website 
> hotline.
> 
> Fucking traitors always disclose the classified bottom line math 
> behind the body counts.
> 
> 
> 

If a result of the bombing is to make humanitarian aid both easier and 
ultimately less necessary then it'll have been worth it. Not that that's 
the reason for it.

jbdigriz






From tolan at citipages.net  Wed Oct 10 05:07:36 2001
From: tolan at citipages.net (Tolan Blundell)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 13:07:36 +0100
Subject: RIAA secret meeting memo fake
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/31/22138.html




From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Wed Oct 10 04:07:43 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 13:07:43 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: [BIOWAR]  FBI Believes Anthrax Strain Manmade (fwd)
Message-ID: 




-- Eugen* Leitl leitl
______________________________________________________________
ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204
57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 20:01:16 -0400
From: ds2000 
To: Biowar 
Subject: [BIOWAR]  FBI Believes Anthrax Strain Manmade

>From The AP,
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011009/us/attacks_investigation_293.html
-
Tuesday October 9 7:35 PM ET

FBI Believes Anthrax Strain Manmade

By KAREN GULLO, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON (AP) - The FBI (news - web sites) believes the strain of
anthrax that killed a tabloid newspaper editor in Florida was manmade,
and tests of the 19 hijackers' possessions have found no trace of the
deadly bacteria, law enforcement officials said Tuesday.

Investigators so far has found no evidence linking the Florida
incident to terrorism, although the manufactured nature of the
bacteria suggests criminal activity may be involved, the officials
said, speaking only on condition of anonymity.

U.S. officials, meanwhile, said there was evidence that Osama bin
Laden (news - web sites) sympathizers have been performing
surveillance of U.S. buildings overseas. That information and other
evidence have prompted continued warnings for Americans overseas to
use caution, the officials said.

President Bush (news - web sites) was preparing to visit the FBI on
Wednesday to announce the creation of a list of most wanted terrorist
worldwide. Officials said the initial list would include 19 names,
some whom are believed to be connected to Osama bin Laden's network.

Overseas, anti-terrorist detectives in Ireland arrested three Libyans
and an Algerian at their Dublin homes on suspicion of fund raising and
providing logistical support to groups linked to bin al-Qaida.

More than $13,000 in cash, documents and financial records were
seized, detectives said. They were also investigating the four men's
various bank accounts.

Police refused to identify the detainees, but authorities said they
included:

-A 39-year-old Libyan who has directed two Islamic charities in
Ireland that detectives suspect have been used to pass funds to
al-Qaida members.

-A 26-year-old Algerian who arrived in Ireland illegally two years ago
and was previously been suspected of involvement in abortive plans to
attack U.S. cities during millennium celebrations.

In Florida, there were growing signs that the appearance of anthrax at
a tabloid newspaper office may not have involved terrorism, but would
be treated as an isolated criminal act.

Tests so far had not found any other workers at the location who were
infected, or additional spores of the bacteria except those found on
the computer keyboard of the victim who died last week, officials
said.

Robert Stevens, 63, a photo editor at The Sun newspaper, died from an
anthrax he inhaled, and high-tech tests were being performed to help
determine the origin of the bacteria. He died on Friday, the first
such death in the United States since 1976.

Dr. Jean ', director of the Palm Beach County Health Department, said
officials could not say whether someone genetically manufactured the
bacteria or they occurred naturally because test weren't completed.

``We're open to the possibility of anything,'' she said

But law enforcement officials in Washington said the strain that
infected Stevens does not match any known naturally occurring version
of the bacterium and was believed to be manmade.

The FBI was still investigating how the anthrax was introduced and no
one has been charged.

A sweep of items belonging to suspected hijacker Mohammed Atta, who
flew planes near the sight of the anthrax case, and a screening of all
the hijackers possessions, cars and hotel rooms turned up no evidence
that they came into contact with anthrax or other biochemical agents,
the officials added.

A tiny amount of anthrax was found on a keyboard at the newspaper
offices, but tests on the building's air systems and areas frequented
by Stevens have turned up no further evidence of the bacteria, the
officials said.

--
Dan S

Post to: biowar at topica.com. Unsubscribe to: biowar-unsubscribe at topica.com. List info: www.topica.com/lists/biowar

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From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Wed Oct 10 05:12:19 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 13:12:19 +0100
Subject: FBI utilizing supermarket club cards in profiling
References: <20011009171411.B13983@navel.introspect>
Message-ID: <3BC43B23.5B786D09@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


What's that officer, you want to look in my kitchen?

I do buy flat Turkish bread. My daughter likes it. And we have some
pickled chillis in a jar. And buckwheat, and olive oil. And dried fruit.
I even have Claudia Roden's Book of Middle Eastern Cookery. Actually I
have  Nosher  [must be a pseudonym?] Djan's book of Afghan cookery in
the other room.  I'll put my hands in the cuffs right now sir. 

And, yes, I have to confess, I have some chickpeas. And even a jar of
tahini. I went to this party, back in about 1976, and they had hummus,
and once I'd tried some I was hooked. A couple of years later I found
out how to make it and I remember sitting on the floor in a shared house
somewhere in Durham and eating home-made hummus and I realised that I
understood the ontological proof of the existence of God, and that if
you actually understood it it was obviously  true. Since then I haven't
quite been able to recapture that moment. Hummus on wholemeal bread,
hummus in pitta, hummus with breadsticks, hummus on salad, hummus with
lamb kebabs when walking home from the club at 3 am - no, I haven't told
you about the club yet, it doesn't matter, the Borough council closed us
down after a political argument but  -  yes, I'll come quietly, officer. 

Yes, those are my microscopes, and those are petri dishes, and I do have
a shelf-full of books on microbiology, would you like to see my degree
certificate? No, it's unpasteurised sheep's cheese. Anthrax doesn't look
like that. Well, it probably does smell a bit like that, I agree. Would
you like to try some?

It's a fair cop, guv.

Ken Brown


"Karsten M. Self" wrote:
> 
> http://www.knoxville.com/kns/politics/article/0,1406,KNS_356_840058,00.html
> 
>     You are what you eat? Federal agents are tracking suspects tied to
>     the Sept. 11 strikes through supermarket club cards that may give a
>     hint of ethnic tastes. "Time was, this data was so disorganized
>     nobody could make sense of it, but not anymore. They're looking for
>     people based on their supermarket tastes," says consultant Larry
>     Ponemon, head of the Privacy Council business consortium. "Trouble
>     is, there's so much bad data out there, and how do your know if
>     someone eats like a terrorist?" he asks.
> 
> Also (and source of above):
> 
>     http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/10/09/0033206
>     What Do You Buy At The Grocery ... Punk?
> 
> Peace.
> 
> --
> Karsten M. Self         http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
>  What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?              Home of the brave
>   http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                    Land of the free
>    Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA!  http://www.freesklyarov.org
> Geek for Hire                      http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html
> 
> [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]




From bzzlgtyr at hotmail.com  Wed Oct 10 11:15:48 2001
From: bzzlgtyr at hotmail.com (Buzz LightYear)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 13:15:48 -0500
Subject: Florida anthtrax was man made.
Message-ID: 


CNN is reporting that the Anthrax strain found in Florida was developed in 
an Iowa laboratory during the 1950's.

However, they haven't named the lab or confirmed wether it is still in 
operation.

http://www.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/10/10/anthrax/

My guess it is the National Animal Disease Center (NADC) in Ames, Iowa and 
it is still in operation.

http://www.nadc.ars.usda.gov/

The NADC is large facility on the east side of Ames (also home to Iowa
State University, which has a well regarded agricultural and veterinary 
teaching and research programs).

The facility's security is fairly high (chain link fencing with barbed wire, 
security patrols, "US government property, NO Trespassing" signs, etc.).

>From what I recall the NADC is the agricultural animal version of the
Center for Disease Control (CDC).

They do a lot of research on nasty animal diseases (Foot and Mouth disease 
for example). It wouldn't surprise me that they have fiddled around with 
anthrax.

What always made me nervous while living in Ames were the
several plots of land (5-10 acres in size ) around the facility. There was 
nothing (no trees or shrubs, just grass) around them and a small cluster of 
buildings in the center. There was always one building in the cluster with 
what appeared to be an incinerator stack protruding from it.

-Buzz

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From decoy at iki.fi  Wed Oct 10 03:41:04 2001
From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 13:41:04 +0300 (EEST)
Subject: FBI grammar (was Re: FBI utilizing supermarket club cards
  in  profiling)
In-Reply-To: <20011010002145.9719.qmail@sidereal.kz>
Message-ID: 


On 10 Oct 2001, Dr. Evil wrote:

>Time was, people knew grammar. Not anymore. Consultant Larry Ponemon
>needs to hire a grammar consultant to tell him: "_These_ data _were_ so
>disorganized... There _are_ so _many_ bad data out there..."

There was a time when "data" was purely the plural form of latin "datum".
Not anymore. The first example given by the online Merriam-Webster
dictionary is, whattayaknow, "the data is plentiful and easily available".

Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - mailto:decoy at iki.fi, tel:+358-50-5756111
student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front
openpgp: 050985C2/025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2




From decoy at iki.fi  Wed Oct 10 04:03:46 2001
From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 14:03:46 +0300 (EEST)
Subject: al Qaeda website?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Tue, 9 Oct 2001, Lucky Green wrote:

>Unfortunately, the website appears to have been taken down and the Google
>cache provides hardly any useful information. Besides, I doubt that this was
>the al Qaeda website. Any other links? (Yes, I of course had tried Google
>before posting).

The original isn't likely written in the Latin alphabet. If you want to
work with this, see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unicode/message/8994 for
Unicode codepoints of "al-Qaida" in Arabic. You'd then need to try at
least those points encoded in ISO-8859-6, since few people use Unicode at
the present. OTOH, I dunno how to make Google understand anything besides
basic Latin-1.

Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - mailto:decoy at iki.fi, tel:+358-50-5756111
student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front
openpgp: 050985C2/025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2




From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org  Wed Oct 10 11:05:57 2001
From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 14:05:57 -0400
Subject: US Food Aid Propaganda
References: <882D48F0-BDA2-11D5-8912-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <3BC48E05.9050401@dragonsweb.org>


Tim May wrote:

> 
> You think?
> 
> Wiping out the airfields, knocking out the lines of supply, all of this 
> is essential to getting several million Afghanis to flee onto the 
> mountain trails, where the snows will soon get them. This is essential 
> to rooting out terrorism by reducing the terrorist breeding grounds by 
> several million.
> 
> But, cheer up! 15,000 more orange food packlets are being scattered from 
> 15,000 feet. And, I hear, at least 400 emergency tents are being dropped 
> along the Khyber Pass.
> 
> Operation Final Solution should be successful by, say, January 20th.
> 
> We won't be able to do Bomb Damage Assessment until the spring thaw, 
> however.
> 
> 
> --Tim May
> "Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and
> strangled with her panty hose,  is somehow morally superior to a woman 
> explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound"
> 
> 

Afghans have been living, fighting, conducting their daily affairs, 
playing, or alternatively, starving and dying, amidst bombs and shells 
landing amongst them for quite some time now. Some of the footage PBS 
has been airing is pretty dramatic about this. Don't see most of them 
fleeing for the mountains unless maybe forced at gunpoint, which I doubt 
would work.

A few days and any bombed out roads or runways will be repaired enough 
to get the aid trucks rolling again. If you want to argue that the U.S. 
should not have got itself in the position of having to send its 
military over there (and all which *that* entails), I'd concur, but 
that's another matter, and irrelevant at this point, as far as the war 
itself is concerned.

jbdigriz





From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org  Wed Oct 10 11:26:48 2001
From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 14:26:48 -0400
Subject: One-way airline tickets considered suspicious
References: <3BC47227.9070001@dragonsweb.org> <9q230e$lsm$1@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <3BC492E8.6050105@dragonsweb.org>


Ian Goldberg wrote:

> In article <3BC47227.9070001 at dragonsweb.org>,
> James B. DiGriz  wrote:
> 
>>[Terrorism Dr. Joyce] Oh, absolutely, Take one-way plane trips, for 
>>example. How many people need one way tickets? Why would they want them? 
>> [Insert additional comments from the show's peanut gallery here] If 
>>someone purchases a one-way ticket, they should be asked why.
>>
> 
> They really should be.  A round-trip ticket where you throw away the
> back end is much cheaper.  :-)
> 
>    - Ian
> 
> 
> 

Shows you how much I fly. I'd rather drive. Now, if I had my own plane...

jbdigriz




From dbob at semtex.com  Wed Oct 10 14:59:28 2001
From: dbob at semtex.com (Dynamite Bob)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 14:59:28 -0700
Subject: circular webs: bert & osama in undoctored photo
Message-ID: <3BC4C4C0.EB5CD1B3@semtex.com>


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,36218,00.html

					NEW YORK  Do
                                     the global terror links
                                     reach even as far as
              Sesame Street? Is Bert the Muppet a henchman
              of terrorist mastermind Usama bin Laden?

              The answer is clearly no, but puzzled newspaper
              readers are still wondering how the Sesame Street
              icon ended up in a news service photograph of a
              pro-bin Laden protest in Bangladesh. The pictures
              clearly showed demonstrators holding up a large
              poster in which bin Laden and Bert are standing next
              to each other.

              The picture quickly began making the e-mail rounds
              Wednesday morning, astonishing and provoking
              laughter from Los Angeles to Switzerland to South
              Korea.

              The poster is a collage of pictures of bin Laden in
              white robes, camouflage fatigues and lecturing with a
              microphone in his hand, all ringing a large portrait of
              the bearded Saudi exile. Along the bottom is printed
              "Usama." On the right side of the picture, just past
              the right shoulder of the large portrait, is irascible
              Bert, bosom buddy of Ernie.

              The photographs do not appear to have been
              doctored. They were taken by news photographers
              covering at least two different demonstrations from
              different angles on at least two separate days.

              The first known Bert-bin Laden posters appeared on
              Oct. 5 in Dhaka, and photographs of them were
              printed by the Dutch news service Algemeen
              Nederlands Persbureau and the Associated Press and
              Reuters news services. At least one other photograph
              including the posters was taken by Reuters
              photographer Rafiqur Rahman in Jakarta on Oct. 9.

              Reuters spokeswoman Felicia Cosby said the photos
              were authentic.

              "We've just noticed it
              ourselves, since you
              queried, that there is
              Bert on that poster," she
              said. "I don't know if
              they're mass-producing
              these posters, but what I
              can say is that it is
              definitely our policy not
              to doctor photographs."

              Associated Press
              spokesman Jack Stokes said the AP photographs
              were also untouched.

              "We haven't changed the photo at all," he said. "We
              have very strict editing guidelines."

              The AP photographs were taken by Pavel Rahman.
              Stokes said he did not know if Rahman was another
              name for, or related to, Rafiqur Rahman.

              Cosby said Rafiqur Rahman, a native Bangladeshi,
              did not know that he was photographing a Muppet
              when he covered a prayer demonstration for bin
              Laden's health Oct. 9.

              "The photographer is as bemused as we are," she
              said. "He didn't know what that furry creature was."

              Rahman is going to a local marketplace to hunt down
              more Bert-bin Laden posters Wednesday, Cosby
              said. 

              The creator of a parody Web site dedicated to "Evil
              Bert" said he had a theory about how an associate of
              Kermit the Frog, Big Bird and Snuffleupagus had
              been recruited into the Al Qaeda cause. 

              For several years, Dino Ignacio, 27, a San Francisco
              3-D animator, had been maintaining a humor Web
              site that purported to "prove" that the bad-tempered,
              banana-shaped Jim Henson creation was connected
              to evil causes from Hitler and the JFK assassination
              to the stolen Pamela Anderson sex tapes and Kevin
              Costner movies. But he stopped maintaining the site
              when he lost interest in 1998.

              A week after the World Trade Center and Pentagon
              attacks, someone e-mailed him an altered picture of
              bin Laden standing next to Bert wearing a trenchcoat
              and looking very angry. Ignacio didn't post the
              picture on his site out of respect for victims of the
              terror attack, but the picture began showing up on
              Bert fan sites and in other odd corners of the Internet.

              "What I'm thinking is that [someone there] has access
              to the Internet, got this picture to pop up off of Alta
              Vista or Google and put together this collage," he
              said. 

              Of course, the other explanation might be that Bert
              has finally ditched Ernie, canceled his account at Mr.
              Hooper's shop and taken his Kalashnikov to the other
              side of the war. 

              Sesame Workshop issued a statement saying it was
              very unhappy with the sudden connection between a
              lovable character with a penchant for penguins and
              bottlecaps and the most wanted man in the world.

              "Sesame Street has always stood for mutual respect
              and understanding," a spokeswoman said. "Were
              outraged that our characters would be used in this
              unfortunate and distasteful manner. This is not at all
              humorous.The people responsible for this should be
              ashamed of themselves. We are exploring all legal
              options to stop this abuse and any similar abuses in
              the future."

              When asked about Bert's current whereabouts,
              however, the spokeswoman replied: "No comment."

              Regardless of the explanation, Ignacio said he
              doesn't find his "Evil Bert" idea very funny right
              now.

              "It's weirding me out," he said. "It's like reality
              imitating the Web, but it's taking something that I did
              so much further. I don't want to get into this one
              because it's too real."

-------
Got Osama?




From PinnacleSystems at pinnacle.0mm.com  Wed Oct 10 14:03:45 2001
From: PinnacleSystems at pinnacle.0mm.com (Pinnacle Systems)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 15:03:45 -0600
Subject: Pinnacle Pro-ONE Roadshow 2001
Message-ID: <20011010150345.000185@ms2out1.messagemedia.com>

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From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org  Wed Oct 10 12:18:11 2001
From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 15:18:11 -0400
Subject: One-way airline tickets considered suspicious
References: <3BC47227.9070001@dragonsweb.org> <9q230e$lsm$1@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <3BC49EF3.4000501@dragonsweb.org>


Ian Goldberg wrote:

> In article <3BC47227.9070001 at dragonsweb.org>,
> James B. DiGriz  wrote:
> 
>>[Terrorism Dr. Joyce] Oh, absolutely, Take one-way plane trips, for 
>>example. How many people need one way tickets? Why would they want them? 
>> [Insert additional comments from the show's peanut gallery here] If 
>>someone purchases a one-way ticket, they should be asked why.
>>
> 
> They really should be.  A round-trip ticket where you throw away the
> back end is much cheaper.  :-)
> 
>    - Ian
> 
> 
> 

Seriously, would  a determined would-be kamikaze hijacker or suicide 
bomber want to draw attention by bucking the herd and not trying to save 
a few bucks? Especially now?

jbdigriz







From evs123 at email.ru  Wed Oct 10 05:32:29 2001
From: evs123 at email.ru (EVS)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 15:32:29 +0300
Subject:   / VISA SERVICES
Message-ID: <20011010113343.616E77695@mtu.ru>



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From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Oct 10 13:38:40 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 15:38:40 -0500
Subject: Slashdot | Anti-Civil Liberties Legislation Progresses
Message-ID: <3BC4B1D0.E552B847@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/yro/01/10/10/190226.shtml
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From tolan at citipages.net  Wed Oct 10 07:39:40 2001
From: tolan at citipages.net (Tolan Blundell)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 15:39:40 +0100
Subject: RIAA secret meeting memo fake
In-Reply-To: <200110101401.KAA15842@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: 


Even if it is a fake, I think the reason people were so interested in the
message is that it appears to confirm that the RIAA are as ruthless as they
act.
In this instance, I certainly 'want to believe', I hope you manage get some
extra evidence to back this up.

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at ssz.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at ssz.com]On
Behalf Of John Young
Sent: 10 October 2001 17:55
To: cypherpunks at lne.com
Subject: CDR: Re: RIAA secret meeting memo fake


We're pursuing the matter though Tony Smith at the Register
seems to be washing his hands of it. And we have asked a couple
of wizards help check out the source of the messages we have
received, now two -- the latest last evening (with a possibility
the source is a provocateur of the infotainment industry aiming
for sympathy legislation).

Here's our latest message to our always trustworthy source:

-----

Response to your message last evening:

The Register has today recanted its story about the RIAA meeting.

How do you want to handle this now? Ready to be named,
your full messages published on Cryptome, or do you want
to provide substantiation for your messages and keep your
identity concealed? Or perhaps another thoughtful approach
to loft this story to a higher level. Interest will be high for a few
more hours -- or many days if you come through with authentic
evidence. Want to talk on the phone, be on TV with a mask,
then fax us your meeting notes for one of the prime participants,
provide proof of employment with a media corporation. All as
easily done as this message.

John
Tel: 212-873-8700
Fax: 212-787-6102

-----

We get sucker punched occasionally and don't mind for it allows
respondents to critique and smoke out phonies, which has long
been big business, name your titans of fakery in all fields, not
least entertainment, media, gov, mil and intel.

Indeed, without sophisticated fakery, deception, disinformation,
lying, cheating, exploitation of the yokels, lying about the truth,
this list would have little reason to exist, not to say a huge swatch
of the globe's economy, led, yes, yes, by the USA USA.

Valenti claims the interests of the USA USA are identical to MPAA
MPAA, and why not RIAA RIAA and the supplicants for billions
like NY NY.





From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Oct 10 13:40:50 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 15:40:50 -0500
Subject: Feinstein wants security role for National Guard / Senator would expand duties far beyond airport protection
Message-ID: <3BC4B252.9D57FE33@ssz.com>


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2001/10/10/MN186598.DTL
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Wed Oct 10 15:48:34 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 15:48:34 -0700
Subject: who wants to be a millionaire
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011011093528.00a55b30@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: 


> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com]On
> Behalf Of mattd
> Sent: 10 October, 2001 16:39
> To: cypherpunks at lne.com
> Subject: Fwd: RE: who wants to be a millionaire
>
>
> Sandy wrote- ...Please back up your supposition. > As sandy is such a
> doubting thomas... Nope, I just know more than you : D
>
> >> > The suppostition is that AP can work without
> >> > violence and even without payment,Many will
> >> > never believe that possible That doesnt mean
> >> > its impossible.Im sure you know more than me
> >> > so dont write me again please,thanks.
> >>
> >>Okay, you stay off the list and I won't write to you.  Okay?
> >>
> >>
> >>  S a n d y  "streetsweeper"
> >Ill stay off the list when all the spam and govt agents stay off it,have
> >you written to them?mattd.

No, but they don't post stupid messages and then ask me not to write to them
when I demolish their arguments.  :'D


 S a n d y

P.S.  Mattd's dishonesty is very interesting.  He added the "streetsweeper"
after my name within the supposedly quoted area.  As John Wayne said in THE
COWBOYS, "I don't hold prison against a man, but I can't stand a liar."
mattd is a liar.




From freematt at coil.com  Wed Oct 10 12:51:12 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 15:51:12 -0400
Subject: Censorware Article In November Playboy
Message-ID: 


The November 2001 print issue of Playboy Magazine 
 has an article by Chip Rowe "Access Denied: 
coming to a library near you: censorware. (Forum page 55).  I just 
received my copy in the mail today.

Rowe cites an example from Bennett Haselton :

Begin Playboy quote: "Haselton created four web pages with titles 
such as "The Homosexual Agenda Information Center." He posted the 
anti-gay snippets without attribution.  He then reported the pages to 
various filtering companies.  Four companies blocked every page; two 
others blocked at least two.  Haselton shared the results with a 
reporter, who then phoned the companies to inform them of the ruse. 
Each refused to block the original sites. Today's lesson, kids:  It's 
not the content of the message but the clout of the messenger that 
will determine what you see." End Playboy quote.

Censorware refers to Internet filtering software that is federally 
mandated via The Children's Internet Protection Act.  The Act 
requires public schools and libraries to install the Orwellian 
software or risk losing federal funds.  In a recent show of moral 
courage the San Francisco City Library system refused to install the 
software and publicly stated that they'd forego the federal funds.

Regards,  Matt-

**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week)
Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722  ICQ: 106212065   Archived at 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/
**************************************************************************




From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Oct  9 23:00:06 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 16:00:06 +1000
Subject: who wants to be a millionaire
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011010155135.00a5ea70@pop.useoz.com>


You do a disservice to crypto and our group by implying, even in a
backhanded way, that Bell's "AP" system was or is in any way feasible. 
Where's the true untraceable cash needed? Please explain. --Tim May

After the 'soft drilling' section of AP it becomes an exercise in mass 
civil disobedience(led by a charismatic
community leader?)Also trust, in that untracable digital cash is not 
strictly needed.Merely enough trustworthy
netizens to promise to send their pledge to the 'predictor'who remains 
anonymous.

eg.60 million netizens pledge 1$ each on a newswire somewhere that doesnt 
keep logs.I actually got a pledge
of 1$ to wax rich armitage like a candle,Its a lot of fun.Theres still a 
lot of free range banks out there.




From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Wed Oct 10 16:00:51 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 16:00:51 -0700
Subject: Register: RIAA secret meeting a hoax.
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20011010182802.00a7a4b0@mail.well.com>; from declan@well.com on Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 06:29:23PM -0400
References: <008f01c151c7$db535d60$6b8d1d18@nyc.rr.com> <20011010182303.B17892@cluebot.com> <01b401c151da$66e9c000$6b8d1d18@nyc.rr.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20011010182802.00a7a4b0@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <20011010160051.J14191@navel.introspect>

on Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 06:29:23PM -0400, Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com) wrote:

> Well, no. If folks no longer worked at their respective firms, and if
> they were seen in public thousands of miles away the same day, I think
> it seems pretty clear that the Register's "secret meeting" report is
> hokum.

Documentation on sitings out of DC?  This wasn't part of Smith's
retraction.

> Don't need no conspiracy theory to explain this kind of shoddy reporting.

C'mon, it's the Register...

OK, they usually do better.

Peace.

-- 
Karsten M. Self         http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?              Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                    Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA!  http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                      http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html
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From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Oct 10 14:04:22 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 16:04:22 -0500
Subject: Freedoms Curtailed In Defense Of Liberty
Message-ID: <3BC4B7D6.42CD6E9B@ssz.com>


Give up democracy to defend democracy...

http://www.theonion.com/onion3736/freedoms_curtailed.html

-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From elyn at consect.com  Wed Oct 10 13:12:13 2001
From: elyn at consect.com (Elyn Wollensky)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 16:12:13 -0400
Subject: Register: RIAA secret meeting a hoax.
Message-ID: <008f01c151c7$db535d60$6b8d1d18@nyc.rr.com>


looks like the RIAA thing was a hoax ...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/31/22138.html
 
 The trouble with the Internet is that it's just too darn fast. Publish a
story and it's all around the world before you've caught your breath. Or
had a chance to change what you'd incautiously posted prematurely. Which
is certainly the case with Monday's 'Music biz wants tougher DMCA, CPRM 2
to protect copyright' story. 
 
 





From danny at staff.cs.usyd.edu.au  Tue Oct  9 23:47:47 2001
From: danny at staff.cs.usyd.edu.au (Danny Yee)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 16:47:47 +1000
Subject: US Food Aid Propaganda
Message-ID: 


Air drops of food aid are a resort of last desperation; most of it will
never be found or used.  So dropping 40 000 food packages is definitely
just a media stunt -- I can't see it having any real effect at all on
the Afghan population it's supposed to be feeding.

Danny.


**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
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**************************************************************************




From dbob at semtex.com  Wed Oct 10 17:18:58 2001
From: dbob at semtex.com (Dynamite Bob)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:18:58 -0700
Subject: CIA capturing Al-Zawahiri's women as instigation?
Message-ID: <3BC4E572.7E500F47@semtex.com>


This important arrest shows how much the anti Osama Bin
Laden device built by US is getting more and more efficient and
almost near the final capture of the terrorist responsible for
attacks of two years ago against the USA embassies in Kenya
and Tanzania.  Al-Zawahiri has been arrested in the United
Arab Emirates, which is one of few Arabic countries recognize
and support openly the afghan Talebani, the major supporters of
the terrorist sheik. Moreover, the American line to hit the Islamic
terrorism seems very dense and before to be captured in Dubai
Al-Zawahiri had tried to erase his traces between Pakistan,
Yemen (where the CIA had captured his women last
December), and the United Arab Emirates, instead, they have
been revealed fatal for his capture. 

http://www.analisidifesa.it/numero6/eng/ciaosamaeng.htm




From maxinux at bigfoot.com  Wed Oct 10 17:38:18 2001
From: maxinux at bigfoot.com (maxinux)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:38:18 -0700
Subject: Numbers Stations
Message-ID: <20011010173818.C2618@spheno.jokeslayer.com>


Has anyone thought to contact the FCC about the numbers stations? they 
dont call out call signs do they?  Who are their frequencies registered 
to?

Max




From thesmack at optonline.net  Wed Oct 10 14:54:10 2001
From: thesmack at optonline.net (Joshua Niamehr)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:54:10 -0400
Subject: how......
Message-ID: <001501c151d6$180d98c0$2a632e18@hppav>

my school is makin us by laptops and all the laptops are givin student usernames. I want to find out the admin password so I can actually do something with my Dell Latitude C600. Do you have any ideas? any software?

Thanks!!!!!!
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From iang at abraham.cs.berkeley.edu  Wed Oct 10 11:11:26 2001
From: iang at abraham.cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: 10 Oct 2001 18:11:26 GMT
Subject: One-way airline tickets considered suspicious
References: <3BC47227.9070001@dragonsweb.org>
Message-ID: <9q230e$lsm$1@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>


In article <3BC47227.9070001 at dragonsweb.org>,
James B. DiGriz  wrote:
>[Terrorism Dr. Joyce] Oh, absolutely, Take one-way plane trips, for 
>example. How many people need one way tickets? Why would they want them? 
>  [Insert additional comments from the show's peanut gallery here] If 
>someone purchases a one-way ticket, they should be asked why.

They really should be.  A round-trip ticket where you throw away the
back end is much cheaper.  :-)

   - Ian




From declan at well.com  Wed Oct 10 15:23:03 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:23:03 -0400
Subject: Register: RIAA secret meeting a hoax.
In-Reply-To: <008f01c151c7$db535d60$6b8d1d18@nyc.rr.com>; from elyn@consect.com on Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 04:12:13PM -0400
References: <008f01c151c7$db535d60$6b8d1d18@nyc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20011010182303.B17892@cluebot.com>


On Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 04:12:13PM -0400, Elyn Wollensky forwarded:
> looks like the RIAA thing was a hoax ...
> 
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/31/22138.html
>  
>  The trouble with the Internet is that it's just too darn fast. Publish a
> story and it's all around the world before you've caught your breath. Or

The trouble has nothing to do with the Internet. It has everything
to do with shoddy journalism.

I like the way the "retraction" still argued, pitifully and
implausibly, that the alleged secret meeting "may" still have
happened.

-Declan




From elyn at consect.com  Wed Oct 10 15:24:59 2001
From: elyn at consect.com (Elyn Wollensky)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:24:59 -0400
Subject: Register: RIAA secret meeting a hoax.
References: <008f01c151c7$db535d60$6b8d1d18@nyc.rr.com> <20011010182303.B17892@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <01b401c151da$66e9c000$6b8d1d18@nyc.rr.com>


> > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/31/22138.html
> >
> >  The trouble with the Internet is that it's just too darn fast. Publish
a
> > story and it's all around the world before you've caught your breath. Or
>
> The trouble has nothing to do with the Internet. It has everything
> to do with shoddy journalism.
>
> I like the way the "retraction" still argued, pitifully and
> implausibly, that the alleged secret meeting "may" still have
> happened.

... but only those in the super-secret inner sanctum know for sure
(& it reads like an abridged techo version of  Leyner's "Young Bergdorf
Goodman Brown")
;~)
elyn


> -Declan
>




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Oct 10 18:28:49 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:28:49 -0700
Subject: Open Sesame: Re: circular webs: bert & osama in undoctored
  photo
In-Reply-To: <3BC4C4C0.EB5CD1B3@semtex.com>
Message-ID: <523BD7B7-BDE7-11D5-8912-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Wednesday, October 10, 2001, at 02:59 PM, Dynamite Bob wrote:

> http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,36218,00.html
>
> 					NEW YORK  Do
>                                      the global terror links
>                                      reach even as far as
>               Sesame Street? Is Bert the Muppet a henchman
>               of terrorist mastermind Usama bin Laden?
>
>               The answer is clearly no, but puzzled newspaper
>               readers are still wondering how the Sesame Street
>               icon ended up in a news service photograph of a
>               pro-bin Laden protest in Bangladesh. The pictures
>               clearly showed demonstrators holding up a large
>               poster in which bin Laden and Bert are standing next
>               to each other.
>
>               The picture quickly began making the e-mail rounds
>               Wednesday morning, astonishing and provoking
>               laughter from Los Angeles to Switzerland to South
>               Korea.
>
>               The poster is a collage of pictures of bin Laden in
>               white robes, camouflage fatigues and lecturing with a
>               microphone in his hand, all ringing a large portrait of
>               the bearded Saudi exile. Along the bottom is printed
>               "Usama." On the right side of the picture, just past
>               the right shoulder of the large portrait, is irascible
>               Bert, bosom buddy of Ernie.
>
>               The photographs do not appear to have been
>               doctored. They were taken by news photographers
>               covering at least two different demonstrations from
>               different angles on at least two separate days.
>

In the name of Allah the Merciful and by all things great and small, the 
message is our call to initiate Open Sesame, the One Thousand and One 
Nights of Jihad.

God is Great!





>
--Tim May
"Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who 
don't." --Condor Chef




From declan at well.com  Wed Oct 10 15:29:23 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:29:23 -0400
Subject: Register: RIAA secret meeting a hoax.
In-Reply-To: <01b401c151da$66e9c000$6b8d1d18@nyc.rr.com>
References: <008f01c151c7$db535d60$6b8d1d18@nyc.rr.com>
 <20011010182303.B17892@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20011010182802.00a7a4b0@mail.well.com>


Well, no. If folks no longer worked at their respective firms, and if they 
were seen in public thousands of miles away the same day, I think it seems 
pretty clear that the Register's "secret meeting" report is hokum.

Don't need no conspiracy theory to explain this kind of shoddy reporting.

-Declan


At 06:24 PM 10/10/01 -0400, Elyn Wollensky wrote:
>... but only those in the super-secret inner sanctum know for sure
>(& it reads like an abridged techo version of  Leyner's "Young Bergdorf
>Goodman Brown")
>;~)
>elyn




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Wed Oct 10 15:38:56 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:38:56 -0400
Subject: Register: RIAA secret meeting a hoax.
References: <008f01c151c7$db535d60$6b8d1d18@nyc.rr.com>
  <20011010182303.B17892@cluebot.com>
  <5.0.2.1.0.20011010182802.00a7a4b0@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <3BC4CE00.7285FA7D@acmenet.net>


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> Well, no. If folks no longer worked at their respective firms, and if they
> were seen in public thousands of miles away the same day, I think it seems
> pretty clear that the Register's "secret meeting" report is hokum.

Leaving the firms was just a cover for their continued secret work.
Sightings thousands of miles away were holograms, body doubles, or
clones. Sheesh, don't you know _anything_?


> Don't need no conspiracy theory to explain this kind of shoddy reporting.

You're just mad because you're not part of the conspiracy.


Ta,
SRF, Global Conspirator #3552


-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From honig at sprynet.com  Wed Oct 10 18:52:51 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:52:51 -0700
Subject: US Food Aid Propaganda
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011010185251.009c3100@pop.sprynet.com>


At 12:51 AM 10/10/01 -0400, Matthew Gaylor wrote:
>(Re PSYOPS)
>I'm rather disappointed but certainly not surprised that the 
>establishment media doesn't pick up on any of this.
>
>Regards,  Matt-

They are part of the domestic psyops.

This is your republic.
This is your republic on psyops.
Any questions? 




From sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 10 19:00:29 2001
From: sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com (sonofgomez709)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 19:00:29 -0700
Subject: Talking to the Press Considered Harmful 
Message-ID: <009d01c151f8$8252faa0$690da2cd@vaio>


On Tue, Oct 09, 2001 at 10:09:25AM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> I've had a couple of reporters try to reach me for "quotes." When I
> turned them down, they replied along the lines of "But it'll only take a
> minute of your time." All the worse, but they miss this point.

There is a tiny bit of room for negotiations. You could agree to do the
interview on condition that they read you back the quotes (or email you
back the quotes) that they're going to use in the article.

Note I'm not saying you should give interviews to the press -- none
of my business, really -- but there is a way to do it and avoid being
misquoted.

-Declan



Or people could contact me for tcmay "quotes" and I could respond
with a digitially signed tmcay at got.net 'quote'...


John Gilmore 
"I Don't Make It Up...I Just Make It Better..."
http://profiles.yahoo.com/sonofgomez709
http://www.technopagan.org/politics/xenix/
http://members.w-link.net/~sog/INDEX.HTM




From xeni at xeni.net  Wed Oct 10 19:02:08 2001
From: xeni at xeni.net (Xeni Jardin)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 19:02:08 -0700
Subject: Open Sesame: Re: circular webs: bert & osama in undoctored 
  photo
In-Reply-To: <523BD7B7-BDE7-11D5-8912-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: 


> In the name of Allah the Merciful and by all things great and small, the
> message is our call to initiate Open Sesame, the One Thousand and One
> Nights of Jihad.
>
> God is Great!

Fools. The significance of these images' sudden emergence is woefully clear.
They're obviously nefarious cyber-tools terrorists are using to distribute
secret, stego-instructions to one other, now that land communications have been
knocked out.  We must bomb Sesame Street and convert the swarthy Muppets to
Christianity.




From honig at sprynet.com  Wed Oct 10 19:03:28 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 19:03:28 -0700
Subject: OK, folks, the Bert-Osama connection is for real
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011010190328.009b9e60@pop.sprynet.com>


At 08:46 AM 10/10/01 -0700, Xeni Jardin wrote:
>
>So does this mean we carpet-bomb Sesame Street as a community that
>harbors, aids, and abets those who facilitate terrorism?
>

I always thought Oscar was one of those WTO black bloc types...
or maybe a militant Green, living in a trash can like that...

And their stupid "brought to you by the number N" messages
must have been a low-baud *numbers station*.




From drevil at sidereal.kz  Wed Oct 10 12:19:39 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil)
Date: 10 Oct 2001 19:19:39 -0000
Subject: FBI grammar (was Re: FBI utilizing supermarket club cards
  in  profiling)
In-Reply-To:  (message from Sampo Syreeni on Wed, 10 Oct 2001 13:41:04 +0300
  (EEST))
References: 
Message-ID: <20011010191939.9979.qmail@sidereal.kz>


> There was a time when "data" was purely the plural form of latin "datum".
> Not anymore. The first example given by the online Merriam-Webster
> dictionary is, whattayaknow, "the data is plentiful and easily available".

Some of us will always know that "data" is plural, "kudos" and
"everyone" are singular, and the plural of "octopus" is "octopuses".
But I will not deny you your right to bad grammar!




From njohnsn at IowaTelecom.net  Wed Oct 10 17:23:53 2001
From: njohnsn at IowaTelecom.net (Neil Johnson)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 19:23:53 -0500
Subject: CNN sucking Powell's dick
References: 
Message-ID: <00ec01c151eb$032e1280$0100a8c0@mshome.net>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Sandy Sandfort" 
.
.
.
> heard of short-wave?  All that Bin Laden has to do is broadcast the words,
> "Allah akbar" and his operatives execute "Plan A," "inshaalha" and they
> execute "Plan B," "Bert & Ernie" and they execute "Plan C."  They don't
need
> American TV, folks.  (Reminds me of the aliens in INDEPENDENCE DAY, using
> our communications satellites...)
>
>
>  S a n d y

Still plenty of "numbers" stations on the air. ( Background" A "numbers
station" is a short-wave station where transmissions consists of someone
(human or software generated) monotonously reading a sequence of numbers and
nothing else. Probably a messages encoded with a OTP).

Watch it now. We don't want the gov't getting the idea that all short-wave
radios need to registered.

-Neil




From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu  Wed Oct 10 16:25:31 2001
From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 19:25:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Documented criminal/terrorist uses of cryptography?
Message-ID: 


Hi,

Does anyone have pointers to documented instances of terrorists or
criminals using stego or crypto? As opposed to the speculation recently
seen regarding Osama bin Laden.

Thanks much,
-David Molnar




From tbr at tabun.com  Wed Oct 10 19:26:53 2001
From: tbr at tabun.com (Tabla bin Rasa)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 19:26:53 -0700
Subject: Freedoms Curtailed In Defense Of Liberty
Message-ID: <3BC5036C.58CE0BBA@tabun.com>


At 04:04 PM 10/10/01 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
>Give up democracy to defend democracy...
>
>http://www.theonion.com/onion3736/freedoms_curtailed.html

Jesus Jim, this is good enough to infringe its copyright:

      WASHINGTON, DCResponding to the threats facing America's free
democratic system, White House officials called
upon Americans to stop exercising their democratic freedoms Monday.

      "In this time of national crisis, a time when our most cherished
freedoms are threatened, all Americansnot just outspoken talk-show
hosts like Bill Mahermust watch what they say," White House press
secretary Ari Fleischer told reporters. "Now more than ever, if we want
to
protect democracy for future generations, it is vital that nobody speak
out
about the issues of the day."

      "We must all do our patriotic duty to protect our country's great
ideals," Fleischer continued, "and we have to be careful about what
opinions we express if we are to defend our Constitution, a sacred
document behind which all Americans must stand united as one."

      Fleischer's sentiments echoed those of many executive-branch
officials, who, in the wake of the Sept. 11 attacks, have called for
broad-based limitations on civil libertiesand urged all patriotic,
freedom-loving citizens to support those restrictionsin defense of the
American way of life.

      "We live in a land governed by plurality of opinion in an open
electorate, but we are now under siege by adherents of a
fundamentalist, totalitarian belief system that tolerates no dissent,"
Attorney General John Ashcroft said. "Our most basic
American values are threatened by an enemy opposed to everything for
which our flag stands. That is why I call upon all
Americans to submit to wiretaps, e-mail monitoring, and racial
profiling. Now is not the time to allow simplistic, romantic
notions of 'civil liberties' and 'equal protection under the law' to get
in the way of our battle with the enemies of freedom."

      In the past, Ashcroft said, efforts by federal agencies to
restrict personal freedoms were "severely hampered" by such
factors as the judicial system, the Bill Of Rights, and "government by
the people." Since the attacks, however, some such
limitations have been waived, finally giving the CIA, FBI, Pentagon, and
White House the greater powers they need to defend
freedom.

      U.S. Sen. John McCain (R-AZ), who advocated permitting the CIA to
engage in various illegal activities during a recent
Tonight Show With Jay Leno appearance, stressed the importance of not
merely submitting to freedom-curtailment policies,
but also blindly agreeing with them.

      "Now is not the time for such divisive, destructive things as
dialogue and debate," McCain said. "Now is not the time for,
'My opinion is just as valid as yours,' and 'What are my country's
leaders doing and why?' and 'I have a question, Mr.
President.' Now is the time for one thing and one thing only: The
defense of the American democratic ideal. Any and all who
disagree with this directive, or who have different ideas about how it
should be accomplished, should learn to shut their
mouths."

      As the U.S. prepares to mobilize forces against Afghanistan, the
military is seeking strong limitations on the press.
According to Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, such a
Constitution-flouting move would not be unprecedented, citing the
suspension of habeas corpus in the Civil War and the order to round up
110,000 Japanese-Americans in detention camps
after the bombing of Pearl Harbor.

      "Remember, under the oppressive Taliban regime, people live in
constant fear of an oppressive order to which all must
submit," Rumsfeld said. "Under their system, it is illegal to practice a
different religion or support a different political system. It is
against the law for women to work or leave their homes without their
faces covered. There is no freedom of speech, press, or
assembly, as dissent of any kind is not tolerated. It is even forbidden
to smile or laugh in public, and all who fail to
unquestioningly obey are punished with reprisals of brutal violence. We
must not allow such a regime to threaten our great
democracy. We must stand for something better than that."

      "It is therefore urgent," Rumsfeld continued, "that all Americans
be quiet, stop asking questions, accept the orders of
authorities, and let us get on with the important work of defending
liberty, so that America can continue to be a beacon of
freedom to all the world."




From jya at pipeline.com  Wed Oct 10 19:28:09 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 19:28:09 -0700
Subject: Register: RIAA secret meeting a hoax.
In-Reply-To: <20011010182303.B17892@cluebot.com>
References: <008f01c151c7$db535d60$6b8d1d18@nyc.rr.com>
  <008f01c151c7$db535d60$6b8d1d18@nyc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <200110102334.TAA27402@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>


Has anyone seen one of the full messages from the source
of the meeting story other than Tony Smith, me and one other
party which was cc'ed on mine? That's not to say Tony got the 
one I got -- he has not answered my inquiry to him yesterday.

There are fascinating parts of my message that haven't come
to light -- yet. We'll publish all the messages with the tracking
headers we've got it if we can prove the information is false. 

Which Tony Smith didn't do beyond being, apparently, buffaloed 
by disclaimers that are standard smoke for shenanigans, at 
least as far as his retraction went. Could be he's blowing smoke 
to cover his own looking more closely at the matter.

Hal's Finney's critique was pretty good, but I assume it was
based on the information that has been made public. Tony Smith
didn't report stuff in the message I got, again not that we
got the same message. Nor did he report the results of a
follow-up from his source if he asked for it.

What we have done with a bit of technical tracking and matching
time data is get within one or two boxes of the source, ID'ed an 
unusual browser type, the operating system, some other yadda 
log file stuff.

Fingering the source is the last thing to do, and then only if the
episode was rigged by RIAA or other alleged attendees.

No need to beat up on Smith, there are so many blandly
verifiable stories published that it's refreshing to see one that
remains disputably interesting.  Sorry to see his retraction
just when the topic gets interesting.  Hope he digs up more
on why the story was spread rather than duck the spin
control.




From nobody at dizum.com  Wed Oct 10 10:30:06 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 19:30:06 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: who wants to be a millionaire
Message-ID: 


Sandy Sandfort writes:

> So, the pledges pour in.  Now the intended target figures, hell, I'll
> just predict my OWN death, fake it and anonymously collect those pledges.
> Then I'll use whatever portion of the $60 million I actually receive to
> buy better security.  Rinse and repeat.  Do you really think folks are
> going to play the game again with Joe Target after he is resurrected?
> Especially if he tells everyone exactly what he did and promises to do
> it again if another price is put on his head?

Not so fast.  How easy is it to fake your own death?  You have to come
up with a fake death certificate.  Obviously in a game such as AP,
verifying death is one of the most important aspects.

It might be that only certain Death Certificate Authorities (DCAs)
come to be accepted for players in AP.  They may require DNA evidence
and other details that would raise the bar considerably for fakers.
This could be a lucrative new business op for RSA/Verisign.

In addition it may be agreed that the payoff doesn't happen right away,
but only after the party has been gone for some minimum period of time,
say a year or two.  Not many targets will be willing to disappear for
two years from public view solely in order to cause trouble for the
AP game.

And even if it does happen, investors in the removal of Mr. Target will
enjoy at least the partial satisfaction of getting him out of the way
for a couple of years.  Then if he does reappear, follow-on bets will
be established with even more stringent conditions for verification
and payoff.




From tbr at tabun.com  Wed Oct 10 19:32:28 2001
From: tbr at tabun.com (Tabla bin Rasa)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 19:32:28 -0700
Subject: Register: RIAA secret meeting a hoax.
Message-ID: <3BC504BB.5B20886B@tabun.com>


At 06:38 PM 10/10/01 -0400, Steve Furlong wrote:
>Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>
>> Well, no. If folks no longer worked at their respective firms, and if
they
>> were seen in public thousands of miles away the same day, I think it
seems
>> pretty clear that the Register's "secret meeting" report is hokum.
>
>Leaving the firms was just a cover for their continued secret work.
>Sightings thousands of miles away were holograms, body doubles, or
>clones. Sheesh, don't you know _anything_?
>
>
>> Don't need no conspiracy theory to explain this kind of shoddy
reporting.
>
>You're just mad because you're not part of the conspiracy.
>
>
>Ta,
>SRF, Global Conspirator #3552

That you think he is not part of the con. merely indicates what a good
agent he is.

Reporter is such a perfect cover.

-His Handler In Choate Prime




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Oct 10 19:44:33 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 19:44:33 -0700
Subject: OK, folks, the Bert-Osama connection is for real
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011010190328.009b9e60@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: 


On Wednesday, October 10, 2001, at 07:03 PM, David Honig wrote:

> At 08:46 AM 10/10/01 -0700, Xeni Jardin wrote:
>>
>> So does this mean we carpet-bomb Sesame Street as a community that
>> harbors, aids, and abets those who facilitate terrorism?
>>
>
> I always thought Oscar was one of those WTO black bloc types...
> or maybe a militant Green, living in a trash can like that...
>
> And their stupid "brought to you by the number N" messages
> must have been a low-baud *numbers station*.
>

Where do you think "cookies" got their name?


Bwaaaaahaaaaa!

All your Al Quedas are belong to us!



--Tim May
"You don't expect governments to obey the law because of some higher 
moral development. You expect them to obey the law because they know 
that if they don't, those who aren't shot will be hanged." - -Michael 
Shirley




From georgemw at speakeasy.net  Wed Oct 10 19:53:02 2001
From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 19:53:02 -0700
Subject: who wants to be a millionaire
In-Reply-To: 
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20011011060238.00a55eb0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <3BC4A71E.24470.3ADD2506@localhost>


On 10 Oct 2001, at 12:11, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

> So that definition of "free range banks" is....?
> 
> > Clearstream and another clearinghouse,
> > Euroclear ... 400 banks on nauru...
> 
> These are "free range banks"?  Again, definition, please.
> 

>  S a n d y
> 
> 
In the coming age of digital cash, you wouldn't want your wealth
measured in some meaningless fiat currency like "dollars", right?
You want genuine commodity backed currency.

A free range bank would back its currency with free range chickens.

George




From honig at sprynet.com  Wed Oct 10 19:54:24 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 19:54:24 -0700
Subject: Documented criminal/terrorist uses of cryptography?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011010195424.007c8650@pop.sprynet.com>


At 07:25 PM 10/10/01 -0400, dmolnar wrote:
>Hi,
>
>Does anyone have pointers to documented instances of terrorists or
>criminals using stego or crypto? As opposed to the speculation recently
>seen regarding Osama bin Laden.
>
>Thanks much,
>-David Molnar

The FBI docs (from cryptome.org, IIRC) mention that all the hijackers
paid in *cash*, with *none* of them buying over the net (and using
SSL in the process).  Several of them *did* use the net to *reserve* but
not pay for tickets;
they probably wouldn't have used crypto (SSL) for that.

\begin{rambling} 
There is *no* solid evidence that they used crypto in the open source
literature.  There are recent
nearly-unverifiable claims that invisible writing (stego) was used; 
these claims would be made in any case, to condemn stego.  Claims
about videotape stego are now being made (10/10/01) and the videonetworks
have bent over for it.

Still, I wouldn't want to be scanning the latest Playboy to email to my
brother in  right now.  

I've not even heard (not that that means much these days) reports
of the hijackers' computers being seized.  I would expect them to
have use disk encryptors, e.g., in case their machine was stolen
or needed repair.   For communications security, the hijackers may have
worried
about traffic analysis too much.  

Maybe you'll have to give a fingerprint
to use a library's machines from now on.

\end{}




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Wed Oct 10 17:03:18 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 20:03:18 -0400
Subject: Documented criminal/terrorist uses of cryptography?
References: 
Message-ID: <3BC4E1C6.FA5EFFBF@acmenet.net>


dmolnar wrote:

> Does anyone have pointers to documented instances of terrorists or
> criminals using stego or crypto? As opposed to the speculation recently
> seen regarding Osama bin Laden.

I very strongly suspect there's been no documented criminal use of stego
in the computer age; we'd have heard it trumpeted in the past few weeks.

Criminal use seems to be pretty rare but not unheard of. The FBI put a
keyboard bug in Scarfo's computer because he was using PGP and they
couldn't read his mail or files. I vaguely recall complaints that
Echelon couldn't evesdrop on some European companies suspected of some
form of nefarious dealings because they used encryption. Take that with
a grain of salt, because I can't remember details, can't find a link,
and may be remembering a hypothetical rather than an actual event. I've
heard of a few cases where someone was attempting to use crypto
(PGPDisk, probably) to encrypt the files on his computer, but did it
wrong and the cops were able to read them. No details here, either;
sorry. You can also find more criminal use of crypto when you consider
that mere use of crypto has been criminalized in some places; I assume
that's not what you were looking for.

Terrorist use of crypto seems to be purely hypothetical at this point.
It's probably being used, but no one's documented it that I've come
across. Same caveat as above; if you expand the definition of terrorist
to include Jim Bell, then there is certainly terrorist use of
encryption.


SRF

-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From maxinux at bigfoot.com  Wed Oct 10 20:22:31 2001
From: maxinux at bigfoot.com (maxinux)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 20:22:31 -0700
Subject: [maxinux@bigfoot.com: Re: Numbers Stations]
Message-ID: <20011010202231.C2996@spheno.jokeslayer.com>


if they broadcast over the us, they have to follow air guidlines aswell... 
neat how things work...

All countries license the airwaves.. atleast in this area..

Max




From xeni at xeni.net  Wed Oct 10 20:27:52 2001
From: xeni at xeni.net (Xeni Jardin)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 20:27:52 -0700
Subject: NYT:At U.S. Request, Networks Agree to Edit Future bin Laden
  Tapes
Message-ID: 


October 11, 2001

THE COVERAGE
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/11/national/11TUBE.html?pagewanted=print

At U.S. Request, Networks Agree to Edit Future bin Laden Tapes

By BILL CARTER and FELICITY BARRINGER

he five major television news organizations reached a joint agreement yesterday
to follow the suggestion of the White House and abridge any future videotaped
statements from Osama bin Laden or his followers to remove language the
government considers inflammatory.

The decision, the first time in memory that the networks had agreed to a joint
arrangement to limit their prospective news coverage, was described by one
network executive as a "patriotic" decision that grew out of a conference call
between the nation's top news executives and the White House National Security
Adviser, Condoleezza Rice, yesterday morning.

The five news organizations, ABC News, CBS News, NBC News, along with its
subsidiary, MSNBC, the Cable News Network and the Fox News Channel all had
broadcast, unedited, a taped message from Mr. bin Laden on Sunday. On Tuesday,
the all-news cable channels, CNN, Fox News and MSNBC, also carried the complete
speech of a spokesmen for Al Qaeda.

Ari Fleischer, the White House spokesman, in his news briefing yesterday,
indicated that Ms. Rice was primarily concerned that terrorists could be using
the broadcasts to send coded messages to other terrorists, but the network
executives said in interviews that this was only a secondary consideration. They
said Ms. Rice mainly argued that the tapes enabled Mr. bin Laden to vent
propaganda intended to incite hatred and potentially kill more Americans.

The executives said that they will broadcast only short portions of any tape
issued by Al Qaeda and would eliminate any passages containing flowery rhetoric
urging violence against Americans. They agreed to accompany the tapes with
reports providing what they called appropriate context.

They also agreed to avoid repeatedly showing excerpts from the tapes, which they
had previously done in what one executive described as "video wallpaper."

One network, ABC, said it would limit the use of moving images from tapes
released by Mr. Bin Laden or Al Qaeda, mostly relying on a still picture from a
frame of the tape and the printed text of whatever message was being delivered.

The coverage of the aftermath of the terrorists attacks on New York and the
Pentagon has generated intense competitive pressure among the television news
organizations, which has increased this week as the news divisions labored to
find images to continue documenting United States attacks on Afghanistan.

The tapes have been broadcast by the Arabic language satellite network, Al
Jazeera, and picked up by the American networks.

The news executives said they had never previously consulted each other en masse
and come to an agreement on a policy about coverage.

But they said the current circumstances were unlike any other they have
encountered.

"This is a new situation, a new war, and a new kind of enemy," said Andrew
Heyward, the president of CBS News. "Given the historic events we're enmeshed
in, it's appropriate to explore new ways of fulfilling our responsibilities to
the public."

The presidents of the news divisions all said that Ms. Rice had not tried to
coerce them. "She was very gentle, very diplomatic, very deft," said Roger
Ailes, the chairman of Fox News.

Walter Isaacson, the chairman of CNN, said, "It was very useful to hear their
information and their thinking." He added, "After hearing Dr. Rice, we're not
going to step on the land mines she was talking about."

Mr. Isaacson did not specify what information Ms. Rice had provided that led to
the executives' decision.

"Her biggest point was that here was a charismatic speaker who could arouse
anti-American sentiment getting 20 minutes of air time to spew hatred and urge
his followers to kill Americans," said Neal Shapiro, the president of NBC News.

The notion that Mr. bin Laden was sending messages to followers through the
tapes seemed less than credible to several of the executives.

"What sense would it make to keep the tapes off the air if the message could be
found transcripted in newspapers or on the Web?" said one network executive, who
spoke on condition of anonymity. "The videos could also appear on the Internet.
They'd get the message anyway."

The unusual interaction between the White House and television executives was
set up late Tuesday evening when Ms. Rice called each executive. They gathered
in their offices at 9 a.m. for the conference call.

She spoke with them for about 20 minutes, explaining her reservations about
allowing Mr. bin Laden such access to American television. A White House
official familiar with the phone call said Ms Rice had two concerns: that the
messages would reach any remaining terrorist cells in the United States and
would also inflame Muslim populations in such places as Malaysia and the
Philippines, who would see the tapes through international channels of CNN and
NBC.

Ms. Rice answered questions. Then she hung up. But the executives had agreed
before the call to stay on the line and talk among themselves.

The networks were not the first news organizations to acquiesce to an
administration requests to edit or withhold information.

Leonard Downie Jr., the executive editor of The Washington Post, said yesterday,
that "a handful of times" in the past month, the newspaper's reporting had
prompted calls from administration officials who "raised concerns that a
specific story or more often that certain facts in a certain story, would
compromise national security."

He added, "In some instances we have kept out of stories certain facts that we
agreed could be detrimental to national security and not instrumental to our
readers, such as methods of intelligence collection."

Clark Hoyt, the Washington editor of Knight Ridder, said that his organization
had decided to hold back a report about "some small units of U.S. special
operations forces had entered Afghanistan and were trying to locate bin Laden"
within two weeks of the attacks on the Pentagon and the World Trade Center.

Howell Raines, the executive editor of The New York Times, said that since Sept.
11, Times executives have not had any conversations with government officials
about the handling of sensitive information. Mr. Raines said, "Our longstanding
practice has been that if a high government official wants to talk to us about
security issues, we're available for that conversation. We also would feel free
to seek guidance if there was information in our judgment that might be
sensitive."

The networks' decision has not raised serious protests among television
journalists. Ted Koppel, the ABC "Nightline" anchor, said, "If we want to run
some of the videotape, our understanding is we're still free to do it." But, he
said, the videotapes by and large have not been compelling enough for long
showings.

The CBS anchor, Dan Rather said: "By nature and experience, I'm always wary when
the government seeks in any way to have a hand in editorial decisions. But this
is an extraordinary time. In the context of this time, the conversation as I
understand it seems reasonable on both sides."




From declan at well.com  Wed Oct 10 17:31:36 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 20:31:36 -0400
Subject: Documented criminal/terrorist uses of cryptography?
In-Reply-To: <3BC4E1C6.FA5EFFBF@acmenet.net>; from sfurlong@acmenet.net
  on Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 08:03:18PM -0400
References: 
  <3BC4E1C6.FA5EFFBF@acmenet.net>
Message-ID: <20011010203136.A19291@cluebot.com>


I agree. One of two obstacles likely stands in the way of documented
criminal use of stego or crypto:

1. The terrortypes haven't used it yet
2. Revealing it in enough detail to count as "documentation"
   would compromise sources and methods

But that hasn't stopped the leaks and such:

   WorldNetDaily Reports WTC Terrorists Used Encryption
   http://www.wartimeliberty.com/article.pl?sid=01/09/21/2220202&mode=thread

-Declan


On Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 08:03:18PM -0400, Steve Furlong wrote:
> dmolnar wrote:
> 
> > Does anyone have pointers to documented instances of terrorists or
> > criminals using stego or crypto? As opposed to the speculation recently
> > seen regarding Osama bin Laden.
> 
> I very strongly suspect there's been no documented criminal use of stego
> in the computer age; we'd have heard it trumpeted in the past few weeks.
> 
> Criminal use seems to be pretty rare but not unheard of. The FBI put a
> keyboard bug in Scarfo's computer because he was using PGP and they
> couldn't read his mail or files. I vaguely recall complaints that
> Echelon couldn't evesdrop on some European companies suspected of some
> form of nefarious dealings because they used encryption. Take that with
> a grain of salt, because I can't remember details, can't find a link,
> and may be remembering a hypothetical rather than an actual event. I've
> heard of a few cases where someone was attempting to use crypto
> (PGPDisk, probably) to encrypt the files on his computer, but did it
> wrong and the cops were able to read them. No details here, either;
> sorry. You can also find more criminal use of crypto when you consider
> that mere use of crypto has been criminalized in some places; I assume
> that's not what you were looking for.
> 
> Terrorist use of crypto seems to be purely hypothetical at this point.
> It's probably being used, but no one's documented it that I've come
> across. Same caveat as above; if you expand the definition of terrorist
> to include Jim Bell, then there is certainly terrorist use of
> encryption.
> 
> 
> SRF
> 
> -- 
> Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
>   617-670-3793
> 
> "Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
> while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From honig at sprynet.com  Wed Oct 10 20:33:51 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 20:33:51 -0700
Subject: NYT:At U.S. Request, Networks Agree to Edit Future bin
  Laden  Tapes
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011010203351.009b75c0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 08:27 PM 10/10/01 -0700, Xeni Jardin wrote:
>One network, ABC, said it would limit the use of moving images from tapes
>released by Mr. Bin Laden or Al Qaeda, mostly relying on a still picture
from a
>frame of the tape and the printed text of whatever message was being
delivered.
>

Right, so the placement of his gun/color of his turban/beard/etc.
are not potential out of band channels.

Is the US going to shoot down the Al Jazeera relay satellite? 
(What will CNN do?) Maybe our maps will be off, like that chinese problem
in FRY.

Better to apologize than to ask permission.




From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Wed Oct 10 20:47:26 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 20:47:26 -0700
Subject: Freedoms Curtailed In Defense Of Liberty
In-Reply-To: ; from measl@mfn.org on Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 10:24:19PM -0500
References: <3BC5036C.58CE0BBA@tabun.com> 
Message-ID: <20011010204726.F10510@navel.introspect>

on Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 10:24:19PM -0500, measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) wrote:
> >       "We live in a land governed by plurality of opinion in an open
> > electorate, but we are now under siege by adherents of a
> > fundamentalist, totalitarian belief system that tolerates no dissent,"
> > Attorney General John Ashcroft said. 
> 
> Yeah, the fascist government of the united states...
> 
> > "Our most basic
> > American values are threatened by an enemy opposed to everything for
> > which our flag stands. That is why I call upon all
> > Americans to submit to wiretaps, e-mail monitoring, and racial
> > profiling. Now is not the time to allow simplistic, romantic
> > notions of 'civil liberties' and 'equal protection under the law' to get
> > in the way of our battle with the enemies of freedom."
> 
> Jesus christ!!!  What was that about watering the tree???

With the juice of onions, no less.

-- 
Karsten M. Self         http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?              Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                    Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA!  http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                      http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html
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From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu  Wed Oct 10 18:01:09 2001
From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 21:01:09 -0400
Subject: Bert-Bin Laden: Declan explains it all
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <20011010210109.A27986@ils.unc.edu>


Ok, now this is getting absurd.

The newspaper evidently has two versions:

http://www.tctubantia.nl/CDA/regioportal/1%2c2078%2c1654__772741_%2c00.html

has Bert, but

http://www.tctubantia.nl/CDA/regioportal/1,2078,1654__772741_,00.html

has a cropped version without Bert.  I especially like the jim
jones-style part of the montage, with the microphone (no, it's not ice
cream).

But look at the "Achtergrond" picture on the upper right.  Isn't
that ET, the Extra Terrestrial?  This is on the 1st link above
only (the one with Bert).  Maybe not...
  -- Greg




From marketing at cellodepot.com  Wed Oct 10 17:04:29 2001
From: marketing at cellodepot.com (Cellodepot.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 21:04:29 -0300
Subject: H A L L O W E E N CELLO OFFER
Message-ID: <200110110012.RAA16604@toad.com>

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From xeni at xeni.net  Wed Oct 10 21:13:57 2001
From: xeni at xeni.net (Xeni Jardin)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 21:13:57 -0700
Subject: Larry Ellison pushes national ID registry in WSJ
In-Reply-To: <20011010234408.E22187@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: 


> URL?
>







From njohnsn at IowaTelecom.net  Wed Oct 10 19:19:03 2001
From: njohnsn at IowaTelecom.net (Neil Johnson)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 21:19:03 -0500
Subject: Numbers Stations
References: <20011010173818.C2618@spheno.jokeslayer.com>
Message-ID: <010701c151fb$18eb4ec0$0100a8c0@mshome.net>


What FCC? 

(Hint: Most aren't located in the U.S.)

Sheesh.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "maxinux" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 7:38 PM
Subject: Numbers Stations


> Has anyone thought to contact the FCC about the numbers stations? they 
> dont call out call signs do they?  Who are their frequencies registered 
> to?
> 
> Max




From fogstorm at mac.com  Wed Oct 10 21:42:46 2001
From: fogstorm at mac.com (FogStorm)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 21:42:46 -0700
Subject: Bert-Bin Laden: Declan explains it all
In-Reply-To: <20011010210109.A27986@ils.unc.edu>
Message-ID: <200110110442.f9B4gse29334@smtp-out.mac.com>


On Wednesday, October 10, 2001, at 06:01  PM, Greg Newby wrote:

> Ok, now this is getting absurd.
>
> The newspaper evidently has two versions:
>
> http://www.tctubantia.nl/CDA/regioportal/1%2c2078%2c1654__772741_%2c00.html
>
> has Bert, but
>
> http://www.tctubantia.nl/CDA/regioportal/1,2078,1654__772741_,00.html
>
> has a cropped version without Bert.  I especially like the jim
> jones-style part of the montage, with the microphone (no, it's not ice
> cream).
>
> But look at the "Achtergrond" picture on the upper right.  Isn't
> that ET, the Extra Terrestrial?  This is on the 1st link above
> only (the one with Bert).  Maybe not...
>   -- Greg

The "Achtergrond" picture on the upper right shows a B-2 bomber being 
refueled in flight. Has it been changed from what you saw?




From blancw at cnw.com  Wed Oct 10 21:55:49 2001
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 21:55:49 -0700
Subject: Larry Ellison pushes national ID registry in WSJ
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


quote:

:By Larry Ellison, the founder and CEO of Oracle Corp.
:
:The good news is that a national database combined with biometrics, thumb
:prints, hand prints, iris scans, or other new technology could detect
:false identities.

-------------------


And maybe taking bum-prints* could facilitate the identification of real,
world-class assholes like Ellison.


*(privy data)
  ..
Blanc




From measl at mfn.org  Wed Oct 10 20:24:19 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 22:24:19 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Freedoms Curtailed In Defense Of Liberty
In-Reply-To: <3BC5036C.58CE0BBA@tabun.com>
Message-ID: 



>       "We live in a land governed by plurality of opinion in an open
> electorate, but we are now under siege by adherents of a
> fundamentalist, totalitarian belief system that tolerates no dissent,"
> Attorney General John Ashcroft said. 

Yeah, the fascist government of the united states...

> "Our most basic
> American values are threatened by an enemy opposed to everything for
> which our flag stands. That is why I call upon all
> Americans to submit to wiretaps, e-mail monitoring, and racial
> profiling. Now is not the time to allow simplistic, romantic
> notions of 'civil liberties' and 'equal protection under the law' to get
> in the way of our battle with the enemies of freedom."

Jesus christ!!!  What was that about watering the tree???

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From measl at mfn.org  Wed Oct 10 20:43:20 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 22:43:20 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Freedoms Curtailed In Defense Of Liberty
In-Reply-To: <3BC513BA.51166C46@acmenet.net>
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 10 Oct 2001, Steve Furlong wrote:

> measl at mfn.org wrote:
> 
> > Yeah, the fascist government of the united states...
> 
> > Jesus christ!!!  What was that about watering the tree???
> 
> 
> The (elided) article from _The Onion_. You might not want to rely on

Shit!  I didn't catch that!  I've obviously been working way too many
hours :-(

> SRF

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Wed Oct 10 21:06:47 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 23:06:47 -0500
Subject: Numbers Stations
References: <20011010173818.C2618@spheno.jokeslayer.com>
Message-ID: <3BC51A7D.A67391CB@cybershamanix.com>


      Duh! You're either extremely young or haven't been paying attention
the last 40 years or more.

maxinux wrote:

> Has anyone thought to contact the FCC about the numbers stations? they
> dont call out call signs do they?  Who are their frequencies registered
> to?
>
> Max

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver at cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html




From citizenQ at ziplip.com  Wed Oct 10 23:14:37 2001
From: citizenQ at ziplip.com (citizenQ)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 23:14:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDT: congressional action call - before Friday morning, October
  12, 2001
Message-ID: 


Dear Activist:

Things are moving very fast on Capitol Hill.  Legislation to expand 
government surveillance will be considered by the Senate (and 
maybe the House) on Thursday, October 11.

In the Senate, Sen. Russ Feingold is planning to offer amendments 
Thursday morning that will address some of the privacy concerns 
raised by the pending bills, by requiring government surveillance to 
be more focused and subject to meaningful judicial controls.  CDT 
supports the Feingold amendments.

You can make a difference. Call your Senators in Washington right 
away and let them know that you think civil liberties should be part of 
the balance as we move forward to protect our country from terrorism.  
Urge them to support the Feingold privacy amendments

BACKGROUND

Following the horrendous attacks of September 11, it is clear that US 
anti-terrorism efforts need to be improved.  Unfortunately, there has 
been little time to develop a response that is effective and does not 
unnecessarily infringe civil liberties.  Legislation moving quickly 
through Congress involves some fundamental changes in the 
surveillance laws.  Most of the changes are not limited to terrorism 
cases, but concern all crimes and all intelligence investigations.

Among other things, the bills would:

* Allow FBI to seize any and all stored records (medical records, 
educational records, stored e-mail) in intelligence cases without a 
search warrant.

* Allow computer system operators to authorize government 
surveillance without a court order (the computer trespasser 
provision).

* Authorize roving taps in intelligence cases without clear guidelines, 
allowing government to monitor pay phones, library computers, cell 
phones without first determining who is using the device.

* Allow secret searches (searches without notice at the time of the 
search) in all criminal cases.

* Extend government surveillance under minimal standards to broad 
categories of Internet data  - all "routing, addressing and signaling 
information" (the "pen register" provision).

For full background the current civil liberties issues with the bill, 
please see CDT's latest policy post -- 
http://www.cdt.org/publications/pp_7.10.shtml

Also, the New York Times on October 10 explained the current 
situation in the Senate and Sen Feingold's concerns-- 
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/10/national/10RIGH.html


WHAT YOU CAN DO--MAKE YOUR VOICE HEARD

1. Call your your Senators

[www.vote-smart.org can tell you who your sens are (duh)]

Tell the person who answers the phone that you hope your Senator 
will support the Feingold privacy amendment to the terrorism bill, so 
that it adequately protects civil liberties when giving the government 
new surveillance powers.

Use these words if you feel tongue-tied:

Staffer: Hello, Sen. XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX office.

You: Hello.  I'm a constituent calling to urge the Senator to support the 
Feingold privacy amendments to the anti-terrorism bill. Government 
needs to fight terrorism, but the bill fails to protect privacy.  I'm 
concerned about the provisions on Internet surveillance and roving 
wiretaps.  I support the Feingold amendments setting clear limits on 
government surveillance.

Staffer: I'll tell the Senator.  Thanks, bye!

2. Let CDT know how it went! Go to
   http://www.cdt.org/action/feedback.cgi?membid=casr
   and use the feedback form to tell us what happened. Or you can
   send an email back to me at mclark at cdt.org.

3. Lastly, please forward this message to other individuals interested
   in protecting privacy and free expression on the Internet. They can
   find information about their Senators at http://www.cdt.org/action/.
   But they need to act right away. Forward this message until
   Friday morning, October 12, 2001. 

PLEASE NOTE:  We are asking you to call your Senators in 
Washington because studies have shown that this is the most 
effective way to make a difference over a short period of time.  By the 
time the office reads your email or letter it will probably be too late 
and a call into the district office does not have the same impact when 
the Senator is in Washington.

--
To subscribe to CDT's Activist Network, sign up at:
  http://www.cdt.org/join/

If you ever wish to remove yourself from the list, unsubscribe at:
  http://www.cdt.org/action/unsubscribe.shtml

If you just want to change your address, you should unsubscribe
yourself and then sign up again or contact: mclark at cdt.org
--
Michael Clark, Grassroots Webmaster
mclark at cdt.org
PGP Key available on keyservers

Center for Democracy and Technology
1634 Eye Street NW, Suite 1100
Washington, DC 20006
http://www.cdt.org/
voice: 202-637-9800
fax: 202-637-0968




From schear at lvcm.com  Wed Oct 10 23:21:01 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 23:21:01 -0700
Subject: Google and the Net
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011010231950.03cbf860@pop3.lvcm.com>


At 09:33 AM 10/10/2001 -0400, Trei, Peter wrote:
> > Steve Schear[SMTP:schear at lvcm.com]
> >
> >
> > At 11:40 PM 10/9/2001 +0200, Nomen Nescio wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >It's unfortunate that we have to rely on Google.  Imagine an ongoing,
> > >distributed project to cache the web.  Volunteers could keep tabs on
> > >a subset of corporate and personal web pages and cache old versions
> > >when changes are made.  Rewriting history becomes that much harder.
> > >And it's certainly a better use of computers than seti at home.
> >
> > This is actually an excellent application front end for a Mojo Nation type
> >
> > system, as the data is redundant and distributed.
> >
>You get an interesting recursion problem arising - does your 'memory
>of the web' site include sites which contain archives for the purpose of
>being 'memory of the web'? Shades of Godel....

Since the Mojo space is not included within those of the Web how would this 
recursion take place?

steve




From declan at well.com  Wed Oct 10 20:36:23 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 23:36:23 -0400
Subject: Bert-Bin Laden: Declan explains it all
In-Reply-To: <20011010210109.A27986@ils.unc.edu>; from
  gbnewby@ils.unc.edu on Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 09:01:09PM -0400
References: 
  <20011010210109.A27986@ils.unc.edu>
Message-ID: <20011010233623.B22187@cluebot.com>


On Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 09:01:09PM -0400, Greg Newby wrote:
> The newspaper evidently has two versions:
> http://www.tctubantia.nl/CDA/regioportal/1%2c2078%2c1654__772741_%2c00.html
> http://www.tctubantia.nl/CDA/regioportal/1,2078,1654__772741_,00.html

Don't these map to the same URL? In any case, both look identically
Bertful to me.

-Declan




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Wed Oct 10 20:36:26 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 23:36:26 -0400
Subject: Freedoms Curtailed In Defense Of Liberty
References: 
Message-ID: <3BC513BA.51166C46@acmenet.net>


measl at mfn.org wrote:

> Yeah, the fascist government of the united states...

> Jesus christ!!!  What was that about watering the tree???


The (elided) article from _The Onion_. You might not want to rely on
attributed statements as authoritative quotes from elected and appointed
officials.

http://www.theonion.com/onion3736/freedoms_curtailed.html


SRF

-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Wed Oct 10 21:37:08 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 23:37:08 -0500
Subject: NYT:At U.S. Request, Networks Agree to Edit Future bin
  LadenTapes
References: 
Message-ID: <3BC52196.6FBB9725@cybershamanix.com>


       And hopefully we'll be able to get the unedited transcripts from
somewhere? WTF? Anybody want to bet on what the next new cabinet
position will be? I'll bet the Minister of Truth.

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver at cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html




From declan at well.com  Wed Oct 10 20:43:43 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 23:43:43 -0400
Subject: Documented criminal/terrorist uses of cryptography?
In-Reply-To: <20011011031917.16250.qmail@sidereal.kz>; from
  drevil@sidereal.kz on Thu, Oct 11, 2001 at 03:19:17AM -0000
References: <3.0.6.32.20011010195424.007c8650@pop.sprynet.com>
  <20011011031917.16250.qmail@sidereal.kz>
Message-ID: <20011010234343.D22187@cluebot.com>


On Thu, Oct 11, 2001 at 03:19:17AM -0000, Dr. Evil wrote:
> It seems highly likely that there will be an effort to stop net
> anonymity, which will basicly means KYC for ISPs.

I would have predicted that on the evening of Sep. 11. I've documented
Freeh's calls in the past for just this. I was concerned enough about
this prospect years ago that I convinced some nonprofit groups to
include "protect Net anonymity" in their annual handbooks that go to
congresscritters. But it hasn't happened in Congress yet, and now's a
pretty good time to get this stuff through.

That's the good news. The bad news is that the Senate is preparing to
vote as early as Thurs morning on their USA Act (text at
leahy.senate.gov), and the amendments being proposed by Feingold are
decent but pretty weak. I'll probably put up the text at
wartimeliberty.com soonish.

-Declan




From declan at well.com  Wed Oct 10 20:44:08 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 23:44:08 -0400
Subject: Larry Ellison pushes national ID registry in WSJ
In-Reply-To: ;
  from mixmaster@remailer.segfault.net on Thu, Oct 11, 2001 at
  02:15:01AM +0200
References: 
Message-ID: <20011010234408.E22187@cluebot.com>


URL?

On Thu, Oct 11, 2001 at 02:15:01AM +0200, Anonymous Coredump wrote:
> October 8, 2001
> Commentary
> Digital IDs Can Help
> Prevent Terrorism
> By Larry Ellison, the founder and CEO of Oracle Corp.
> 
> Since the Sept. 11 attacks, our country has been thrust into a debate over
> how to root out terrorists while also maintaining our civil liberties. One
> of the suggestions proposed, though not yet fully debated, is that of
> national identification cards.




From decoy at iki.fi  Wed Oct 10 15:14:59 2001
From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 01:14:59 +0300 (EEST)
Subject: FBI grammar (was Re: FBI utilizing supermarket club cards 
  in  profiling)
In-Reply-To: <20011010191939.9979.qmail@sidereal.kz>
Message-ID: 


On 10 Oct 2001, Dr. Evil wrote:

>Some of us will always know that "data" is plural, "kudos" and
>"everyone" are singular, and the plural of "octopus" is "octopuses". But
>I will not deny you your right to bad grammar!

My point exactly.

Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - mailto:decoy at iki.fi, tel:+358-50-5756111
student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front
openpgp: 050985C2/025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2




From declan at well.com  Wed Oct 10 23:07:06 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 02:07:06 -0400
Subject: NYT:At U.S. Request, Networks Agree to Edit Future bin
  LadenTapes
In-Reply-To: <3BC52196.6FBB9725@cybershamanix.com>; from
  hseaver@cybershamanix.com on Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 11:37:08PM -0500
References: 
  <3BC52196.6FBB9725@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <20011011020706.A4135@cluebot.com>


On Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 11:37:08PM -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>        And hopefully we'll be able to get the unedited transcripts from
> somewhere? 

Um, right. I'm sure the White House will be overjoyed. Besides, how could
you tell it's an accurate transcript?

See also an excerpt from a WH briefing Wed:
http://www.politechbot.com/p-02643.html

-Declan




From mixmaster at remailer.segfault.net  Wed Oct 10 17:15:01 2001
From: mixmaster at remailer.segfault.net (Anonymous Coredump)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 02:15:01 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Larry Ellison pushes national ID registry in WSJ
Message-ID: 


October 8, 2001
Commentary
Digital IDs Can Help
Prevent Terrorism
By Larry Ellison, the founder and CEO of Oracle Corp.

Since the Sept. 11 attacks, our country has been thrust into a debate over
how to root out terrorists while also maintaining our civil liberties. One
of the suggestions proposed, though not yet fully debated, is that of
national identification cards.

Many Americans instinctively fear that a national ID card would sacrifice
basic freedoms and compromise personal privacy. On the face of it, issuing
ID cards does seem a significant step. Trusting government to maintain a
database with our names, addresses, places of work, amounts and sources of
income, assets, purchases, travel destinations, and more, seems a huge
leap of faith.

But we should remember that these databases already exist, and that we
willingly helped in their creation. For years, companies like American
Express and Visa have been issuing cards and building up information on
millions of Americans. The databases they maintain are searched and sold
on a daily basis.

We should remember, too, that the government already tracks things -- lots
of things. Federal, state and local agencies issue Social Security cards,
driver's licenses, pilot's licenses, passports and visas. They maintain
thousands of databases to keep track of everyone from taxpayers and voters
to suspected terrorists.

And so the question is not whether the government should issue ID cards
and maintain databases; they already do. The question is whether the ones
we have can be made more effective, especially when it comes to finding
criminals.

Do we need one national ID card? No. But the IDs that the government
issues -- such as Social Security cards -- should use modern credit card
technology. Do we need more databases? No, just the opposite. The biggest
problem today is that we have too many. The single thing we could do to
make life tougher for terrorists would be to ensure that all the
information in myriad government databases was integrated into a single
national file.

Today, every federal intelligence and law enforcement agency and all
manner of state and local bodies maintain their own separate databases on
suspected criminals. All these separate databases make it difficult for
one agency to know about and apprehend someone wanted by another agency.

That's why one of the Sept. 11 hijackers made it through U.S. passport
control, even though he had an outstanding arrest warrant in Broward
County, Fla. The FBI was searching for several other of the terrorists,
because CIA intelligence revealed they had ties to Osama bin Laden. Four
more were sought by the Immigration and Naturalization Service because
they were in the country illegally.

Such a national database, though a large undertaking, is possible. My
company, for example, has already offered to provide the necessary
software for free, and I'm sure other companies would pitch in with
hardware and support. It's important these donations be made with no
strings attached: The database would be maintained and run by the
government alone, with no question of corporations benefiting.

The uses of such a database would be significant. Airlines, for example,
could cross-check the names of passengers with names on a watch list. If
this had been done, many of the Sept. 11 terrorists would have been caught
before they boarded their flights.

Another challenge is tracking people with multiple or stolen identities.
The good news is that a national database combined with biometrics, thumb
prints, hand prints, iris scans, or other new technology could detect
false identities. Gaining entry to an airport or other secure location
would require people to present a photo ID, put their thumb on a
fingerprint scanner and tell the guard their Social Security number. This
information would be cross-checked with the database.

The government could phase in digital ID cards to replace existing Social
Security cards and driver's licenses. These new IDs should be based on a
uniform standard such as credit card technology, which is harder to
counterfeit than existing government IDs, or on smart-card technology,
which is better but more expensive.

There is no need to compel any American to have a digital ID. Some
Americans may choose to apply for a digital ID card to speed the airport
security check-in process. Some states might use digital IDs for their
next generation of driver's licenses. Companies might want to replace
their current hodgepodge of IDs with the new system. In fact, a voluntary
system of standardized IDs issued by government agencies and private
companies could prove more effective than a mandatory system.

We don't need to trade our liberties for our lives. By law, Fourth
Amendment protections against unreasonable search and seizure would govern
access to the national security database. The "probable cause" standard
will still have to be met.

Two hundred years ago, Thomas Jefferson warned us that our liberties were
at risk unless we exercised "eternal vigilance." Jefferson lived in an age
of aristocrats and monarchs. We live with the threat of terrorists getting
their hands on weapons with the capacity to destroy entire cities. Only by
giving our intelligence and law enforcement agencies better tools can we
expect to save life and liberty together.




From jamesd at echeque.com  Thu Oct 11 02:30:27 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 02:30:27 -0700
Subject: al Qaeda website?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3BC50443.6529.3A5D90@localhost>


    --
On 8 Oct 2001, at 23:20, Lucky Green wrote:
> I suspect that Afghanistan may not recognize US and EU
> blind signature patents and thus would be suitable as a
> jurisdiction to distribute ecash client software to help
> bypass the unconstitutional ban on American citizens

Once they discover the ecash software is also used to
purchase child pornography, they are likely to bury you
alive, or stone you. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     mi8KHM2IJUNXQY1z5/6joD9GqctKCrdpJGPTP8aq
     4lutiBYsYeqfgzuCLtJonvyjfuv+PfKCLQgWVaGrS




From jamesd at echeque.com  Thu Oct 11 02:30:27 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 02:30:27 -0700
Subject: Another precious moment from shrub...
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011008121209.00af9c40@127.0.0.1>
References: <3BC0FE21.7584.390438@localhost>
Message-ID: <3BC50443.18636.3A5DA4@localhost>


    --

> > > Reminiscent of Reagan in his second term.

James A. Donald:
> > That would be the term where he made the world safe for 
> > democracy and capitalism.

On 8 Oct 2001, at 12:33, Jamie Lawrence wrote:
> That would be the term that he became more and more 
> comparable to Zippy the Pinhead.
>
> So, in your world, Latin America, all of Africa, most of
> the Middle east and just about all of the far east are safe
> for democracy and capitalism?

Shortly before that term, the servants of the soviet union
were waging war in Nicaragua, El Salvador, Guatemala, Peru,
Afghanistan, Cambodia, and numerous other countries that have
slipped my memory, making democracy impossible.

During that term all these war efforts collapsed, or
diminished to a pale shadow of their former selves, making
democratic elections possible, elections that for the most
part returned governments far more capitalist than the
previous regimes. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     dMs8Ht5Amw3EJ/XR8FGZ7n0nocIlmOyHTc84GBe+
     4vP0f0vAH2BswH6CkQGgbe801RsROxdCpxvaCGdcq




From declan at well.com  Wed Oct 10 23:40:21 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 02:40:21 -0400
Subject: CDT: congressional action call - before Friday morning,
  October 12, 2001
In-Reply-To: ; from
  citizenQ@ziplip.com on Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 11:14:37PM -0700
References: 
Message-ID: <20011011024021.A6212@cluebot.com>


CDT is on the right track, but I'd be hesitant to call my senators and
endorse Feingold's amendments until I knew what they said. The CDT
alert is silent on details. That's a shame, since they could have
easily included a summary of the amendments (which I really will put
online soon, along with their text).

-Declan


On Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 11:14:37PM -0700, citizenQ wrote:
> Dear Activist:
> 
> Things are moving very fast on Capitol Hill.  Legislation to expand 
> government surveillance will be considered by the Senate (and 
> maybe the House) on Thursday, October 11.
> 
> In the Senate, Sen. Russ Feingold is planning to offer amendments 
> Thursday morning that will address some of the privacy concerns 
> raised by the pending bills, by requiring government surveillance to 
> be more focused and subject to meaningful judicial controls.  CDT 
> supports the Feingold amendments.
> 
> You can make a difference. Call your Senators in Washington right 
> away and let them know that you think civil liberties should be part of 
> the balance as we move forward to protect our country from terrorism.  
> Urge them to support the Feingold privacy amendments
> 
> BACKGROUND
> 
> Following the horrendous attacks of September 11, it is clear that US 
> anti-terrorism efforts need to be improved.  Unfortunately, there has 
> been little time to develop a response that is effective and does not 
> unnecessarily infringe civil liberties.  Legislation moving quickly 
> through Congress involves some fundamental changes in the 
> surveillance laws.  Most of the changes are not limited to terrorism 
> cases, but concern all crimes and all intelligence investigations.
> 
> Among other things, the bills would:
> 
> * Allow FBI to seize any and all stored records (medical records, 
> educational records, stored e-mail) in intelligence cases without a 
> search warrant.
> 
> * Allow computer system operators to authorize government 
> surveillance without a court order (the computer trespasser 
> provision).
> 
> * Authorize roving taps in intelligence cases without clear guidelines, 
> allowing government to monitor pay phones, library computers, cell 
> phones without first determining who is using the device.
> 
> * Allow secret searches (searches without notice at the time of the 
> search) in all criminal cases.
> 
> * Extend government surveillance under minimal standards to broad 
> categories of Internet data  - all "routing, addressing and signaling 
> information" (the "pen register" provision).
> 
> For full background the current civil liberties issues with the bill, 
> please see CDT's latest policy post -- 
> http://www.cdt.org/publications/pp_7.10.shtml
> 
> Also, the New York Times on October 10 explained the current 
> situation in the Senate and Sen Feingold's concerns-- 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/10/national/10RIGH.html
> 
> 
> WHAT YOU CAN DO--MAKE YOUR VOICE HEARD
> 
> 1. Call your your Senators
> 
> [www.vote-smart.org can tell you who your sens are (duh)]
> 
> Tell the person who answers the phone that you hope your Senator 
> will support the Feingold privacy amendment to the terrorism bill, so 
> that it adequately protects civil liberties when giving the government 
> new surveillance powers.
> 
> Use these words if you feel tongue-tied:
> 
> Staffer: Hello, Sen. XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX office.
> 
> You: Hello.  I'm a constituent calling to urge the Senator to support the 
> Feingold privacy amendments to the anti-terrorism bill. Government 
> needs to fight terrorism, but the bill fails to protect privacy.  I'm 
> concerned about the provisions on Internet surveillance and roving 
> wiretaps.  I support the Feingold amendments setting clear limits on 
> government surveillance.
> 
> Staffer: I'll tell the Senator.  Thanks, bye!
> 
> 2. Let CDT know how it went! Go to
>    http://www.cdt.org/action/feedback.cgi?membid=casr
>    and use the feedback form to tell us what happened. Or you can
>    send an email back to me at mclark at cdt.org.
> 
> 3. Lastly, please forward this message to other individuals interested
>    in protecting privacy and free expression on the Internet. They can
>    find information about their Senators at http://www.cdt.org/action/.
>    But they need to act right away. Forward this message until
>    Friday morning, October 12, 2001. 
> 
> PLEASE NOTE:  We are asking you to call your Senators in 
> Washington because studies have shown that this is the most 
> effective way to make a difference over a short period of time.  By the 
> time the office reads your email or letter it will probably be too late 
> and a call into the district office does not have the same impact when 
> the Senator is in Washington.
> 
> --
> To subscribe to CDT's Activist Network, sign up at:
>   http://www.cdt.org/join/
> 
> If you ever wish to remove yourself from the list, unsubscribe at:
>   http://www.cdt.org/action/unsubscribe.shtml
> 
> If you just want to change your address, you should unsubscribe
> yourself and then sign up again or contact: mclark at cdt.org
> --
> Michael Clark, Grassroots Webmaster
> mclark at cdt.org
> PGP Key available on keyservers
> 
> Center for Democracy and Technology
> 1634 Eye Street NW, Suite 1100
> Washington, DC 20006
> http://www.cdt.org/
> voice: 202-637-9800
> fax: 202-637-0968




From drevil at sidereal.kz  Wed Oct 10 20:19:17 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil)
Date: 11 Oct 2001 03:19:17 -0000
Subject: Documented criminal/terrorist uses of cryptography?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011010195424.007c8650@pop.sprynet.com> (message
  from David Honig on Wed, 10 Oct 2001 19:54:24 -0700)
References: <3.0.6.32.20011010195424.007c8650@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <20011011031917.16250.qmail@sidereal.kz>


> Maybe you'll have to give a fingerprint
> to use a library's machines from now on.

It seems highly likely that there will be an effort to stop net
anonymity, which will basicly means KYC for ISPs.

You won't be able to travel anonymously, pay anonymously, or
communicate anonymously.  Not that there's any reason to believe that
these restrictions would have hindered the terrorists in any way.




From mattd at useoz.com  Wed Oct 10 13:11:21 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 06:11:21 +1000
Subject: who wants to be a millionaire
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011011060238.00a55eb0@pop.useoz.com>


Sandy sandfart... wrote ...Is "free range bank" supposed to convey some 
sort of meaning? a) Define "free range bank." b) Give three examples. 
(There are "a lot" of them "out there," right?)
Clearstream and another clearinghouse, Euroclear -- based in Brussels -- 
transfer titles in 150 million transactions each year, involving more than 
US$7 billion in assets. At the discretion of Clearstream, clients can open 
non-published accounts that do not figure in any printed document or record 
of international financial transactions. When law enforcers ask to see 
records, they don't exist.
Also there was a story on the 400 banks on nauru some of whom laundered the 
billions looted from russia,What if hawala
works,Hawala's good.Its more about trust and initial inertia being problems 
than anything else.
As sandy is such a doubting thomas he must immediatly arouse suspicion as a 
fed.yours etc toto,sorry matt.




From mattd at useoz.com  Wed Oct 10 13:27:15 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 06:27:15 +1000
Subject: who wants to be a millionaire
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011011062451.00a612b0@pop.useoz.com>


>To: who wants to be a double agent
>From: mattd 
>
>Meyer wolfsturd wrote ; (On second thought, after reading this collection 
>of quotes, I wouldn't be surprised if "mattd" AKA "Matt Taylor" were 
>actually Agent Jeff Gordon. They certainly share the same obsession. When 
>was Gordon's last psych eval?)
>
>thanks meyer,thanks a hell of a lot.If you troll back through portland 
>indymedia,you'll see I suggested myself as
>a possible 'operation soft drill'candidate.Thats if I am jeff gordon.(My 
>dads next door  neighbors got the same name btw.)
>No Im not cut out to suck j edgers dick,just another carl johnson 
>wannabee;happy to dissapoint you.And If you think I enjoy
>hangin around on this spam and federale polluted site your certifiable.Oh 
>and i like spelling mistakes,evolution proceeds
>on dna spelling mistakes.Up yours meyer lanskey.mattd.




From nobody at dizum.com  Wed Oct 10 21:30:15 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 06:30:15 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Numbers Stations
Message-ID: <54deca6d42a68a6502174c485e27dbf7@dizum.com>


maninux wrote:

> 
> if they broadcast over the us, they have to follow air guidlines aswell... 
> neat how things work...
>
> All countries license the airwaves.. atleast in this area..
>
> Max

    Where, oh where do these fucking idiots come from? This has never 
even listened to shortwave, yet he's going to babble on about his
totally moronic (not to mention totally statist) ideas about how our
all powerful FCC can somehow control foreign government broadcasts.
    It's really frightening how little mental capacity is needed to
get on line these days. 




From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Oct 11 05:17:16 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 07:17:16 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: update.560 (fwd)
Message-ID: 



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 09:31:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: AIP listserver 
To: physnews-mailing at aip.org
Subject: update.560

PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE                         
The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News
Number 560  October 9, 2001   by Phillip F. Schewe, Ben Stein, and
James Riordon

THE 2001 NOBEL PRIZE IN PHYSICS goes to Eric Cornell of
[SSZ: text deleted]

QUANTUM FINGERPRINTING.  Imagine two offices, located
halfway around the world, and their headquarters wants to make
sure that they each have the identical copy of a database.  Imagine
further that the databases are huge--10^20 bits each.  They could
transmit the database to the headquarters, and the headquarters
could compare them.  But transmitting 10^20 bits--equal to about
11 billion gigabytes would take an enormous amount of time.
There is a method in which they only need to send 10^10 bits--a
little over a gigabyte--and the headquarters still gets enough
information to determine that they have the exact same database. 
This method is called "classical fingerprinting."  The idea is that
each office independently, without communicating to each other,
generates a distinctive number, called a fingerprint, by performing
a calculation involving the entire database and locally generated
random numbers, called keys.  The result of the calculation-a
fingerprint of 10^10 bits--is then sent to the headquarters.  Now, a
Dutch-Canadian team (Harry Buhrman, CWI/University of
Amsterdam, 011-31-20-5924076, buhrman at cwi.nl) has suggested
a "quantum fingerprinting" scheme which would involve an
exponentially smaller transmission of information to do the same
job.  For the 10^20 bit database, each office would only have to
transmit a fingerprint of about 70 "quantum bits" (qubits), which
could be, for example, specially prepared photons.  Such photons
could contain the result of a computation between the database and
many different random keys simultaneously, rather than a single
random key.  The researchers say that one could demonstrate this
new fingerprinting technique with quantum computers not much
more complex than the ones that exist today.  Buhrman estimates
that quantum fingerprinting becomes more efficient than classical
fingerprinting in a quantum computer with 5 to 10 qubits.  (H.
Buhrman; R. Cleve; J. Watrous; R. de Wolf, Physical Review
Letters, 15 Oct. 2001; full text at www.aip.org/physnews/select)




From citizenQ at ziplip.com  Thu Oct 11 08:39:18 2001
From: citizenQ at ziplip.com (citizenQ)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 08:39:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Feingold_amendment_text_URL?=
  =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_(was_Re:=A0CDT:=A0congressional?=
  =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=A0action=A0call=A0-=A0before=A0Frida?=
  =?ISO-8859-1?Q?y=A0morning,=A0October=A012,=A02001)?=
Message-ID: 


I would -prefer- to read the text for myself too, and I'm pissed off at CDT, EFF, Congressional Record, and you for that matter, for not being on the case earlier.  If it came down to it I think I'd trust CDT EFF et. al. enough -it's not like trusting Ashcroft or Shrub- but of course you're right.

The amendment text is at
http://www.cdt.org/security/011011s1510feingold.pdf


> 
> CDT is on the right track, but I'd be hesitant to call my senators and
> endorse Feingold's amendments until I knew what they said. The CDT
> alert is silent on details. That's a shame, since they could have
> easily included a summary of the amendments (which I really will put
> online soon, along with their text).
> 
> -Declan
> 
> 
> On Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 11:14:37PM -0700, citizenQ wrote:
> > Dear Activist:
> > 
> > Things are moving very fast on Capitol Hill.  Legislation to expand 
> > government surveillance will be considered by the Senate (and 
> > maybe the House) on Thursday, October 11.
> > 
> > In the Senate, Sen. Russ Feingold is planning to offer amendments 
> > Thursday morning that will address some of the privacy concerns 
> > raised by the pending bills, by requiring government surveillance to 
> > be more focused and subject to meaningful judicial controls.  CDT 
> > supports the Feingold amendments.
> > 
> > You can make a difference. Call your Senators in Washington right 
> > away and let them know that you think civil liberties should be part of 
> > the balance as we move forward to protect our country from terrorism.  
> > Urge them to support the Feingold privacy amendments
> > 
> > BACKGROUND
> > 
> > Following the horrendous attacks of September 11, it is clear that US 
> > anti-terrorism efforts need to be improved.  Unfortunately, there has 
> > been little time to develop a response that is effective and does not 
> > unnecessarily infringe civil liberties.  Legislation moving quickly 
> > through Congress involves some fundamental changes in the 
> > surveillance laws.  Most of the changes are not limited to terrorism 
> > cases, but concern all crimes and all intelligence investigations.
> > 
> > Among other things, the bills would:
> > 
> > * Allow FBI to seize any and all stored records (medical records, 
> > educational records, stored e-mail) in intelligence cases without a 
> > search warrant.
> > 
> > * Allow computer system operators to authorize government 
> > surveillance without a court order (the computer trespasser 
> > provision).
> > 
> > * Authorize roving taps in intelligence cases without clear guidelines, 
> > allowing government to monitor pay phones, library computers, cell 
> > phones without first determining who is using the device.
> > 
> > * Allow secret searches (searches without notice at the time of the 
> > search) in all criminal cases.
> > 
> > * Extend government surveillance under minimal standards to broad 
> > categories of Internet data  - all "routing, addressing and signaling 
> > information" (the "pen register" provision).
> > 
> > For full background the current civil liberties issues with the bill, 
> > please see CDT's latest policy post -- 
> > http://www.cdt.org/publications/pp_7.10.shtml
> > 
> > Also, the New York Times on October 10 explained the current 
> > situation in the Senate and Sen Feingold's concerns-- 
> > http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/10/national/10RIGH.html
> > 
> > 
> > WHAT YOU CAN DO--MAKE YOUR VOICE HEARD
> > 
> > 1. Call your your Senators
> > 
> > [www.vote-smart.org can tell you who your sens are (duh)]
> > 
> > Tell the person who answers the phone that you hope your Senator 
> > will support the Feingold privacy amendment to the terrorism bill, so 
> > that it adequately protects civil liberties when giving the government 
> > new surveillance powers.
> > 
> > Use these words if you feel tongue-tied:
> > 
> > Staffer: Hello, Sen. XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX office.
> > 
> > You: Hello.  I'm a constituent calling to urge the Senator to support the 
> > Feingold privacy amendments to the anti-terrorism bill. Government 
> > needs to fight terrorism, but the bill fails to protect privacy.  I'm 
> > concerned about the provisions on Internet surveillance and roving 
> > wiretaps.  I support the Feingold amendments setting clear limits on 
> > government surveillance.
> > 
> > Staffer: I'll tell the Senator.  Thanks, bye!
> > 
> > 2. Let CDT know how it went! Go to
> >    http://www.cdt.org/action/feedback.cgi?membid=casr
> >    and use the feedback form to tell us what happened. Or you can
> >    send an email back to me at mclark at cdt.org.
> > 
> > 3. Lastly, please forward this message to other individuals interested
> >    in protecting privacy and free expression on the Internet. They can
> >    find information about their Senators at http://www.cdt.org/action/.
> >    But they need to act right away. Forward this message until
> >    Friday morning, October 12, 2001. 
> > 
> > PLEASE NOTE:  We are asking you to call your Senators in 
> > Washington because studies have shown that this is the most 
> > effective way to make a difference over a short period of time.  By the 
> > time the office reads your email or letter it will probably be too late 
> > and a call into the district office does not have the same impact when 
> > the Senator is in Washington.
> > 
> > --
> > To subscribe to CDT's Activist Network, sign up at:
> >   http://www.cdt.org/join/
> > 
> > If you ever wish to remove yourself from the list, unsubscribe at:
> >   http://www.cdt.org/action/unsubscribe.shtml
> > 
> > If you just want to change your address, you should unsubscribe
> > yourself and then sign up again or contact: mclark at cdt.org
> > --
> > Michael Clark, Grassroots Webmaster
> > mclark at cdt.org
> > PGP Key available on keyservers
> > 
> > Center for Democracy and Technology
> > 1634 Eye Street NW, Suite 1100
> > Washington, DC 20006
> > http://www.cdt.org/
> > voice: 202-637-9800
> > fax: 202-637-0968




From measl at mfn.org  Thu Oct 11 06:39:28 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 08:39:28 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Another precious moment from shrub...
In-Reply-To: <3BC50443.18636.3A5DA4@localhost>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 11 Oct 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote:

> Shortly before that term, the servants of the soviet union
> were waging war in Nicaragua, El Salvador, Guatemala, Peru,
> Afghanistan, Cambodia, and numerous other countries that have
> slipped my memory, making democracy impossible.

Ditto for the united states...

>     --digsig

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From citizenQ at ziplip.com  Thu Oct 11 08:50:55 2001
From: citizenQ at ziplip.com (citizenQ)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 08:50:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Taleban code message on BBC
Message-ID: 


>I believe that qualify as taunting Happy Fun Fed.
>

Unless it's BBC, seemingly undaunted by Condi's teeth.  

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/monitoring/media_reports/newsid_1593000/1593104.stm

prints "verbatim excerpts" of a Taleban statement - probably enough to include sufficient bit-density for code transmission.  Might have been treated differently if a statement by Obl?  


>-Declan
>
>At 09:27 AM 10/11/01 -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>>      Perhaps someone out of country could put the recorded interviews up on
>>a website in streaming/realplayer/quicktime/whatever format?




From declan at well.com  Thu Oct 11 06:16:12 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:16:12 -0400
Subject: Talking to the Press Considered Harmful
In-Reply-To: <878zeimr44.fsf@c0re.rc23.cx>; from drt@un.bewaff.net on Thu, Oct 11, 2001 at 12:02:35PM +0200
References: <20011010001203.A6096@cluebot.com> <7F6D52E4-BD36-11D5-8912-0050E439C473@got.net> <878zeimr44.fsf@c0re.rc23.cx>
Message-ID: <20011011091612.A6393@cluebot.com>


On Thu, Oct 11, 2001 at 12:02:35PM +0200, Doobee R. Tzeck wrote:
> supprise me because journalists are information dealers trying to
> get maximum value from minimum effort. Since "trouth" doesn't
> really attribute to value of an information they sell, why should

Obviously you don't understand the media biz. If you really were
doing PR for CCC, they had a pretty poor excuse for a flack.

-Declan




From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Thu Oct 11 07:27:21 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:27:21 -0500
Subject: NYT:At U.S. Request, Networks Agree to Edit Future bin
  LadenTapes
References: 
  <3BC52196.6FBB9725@cybershamanix.com>
  <20011011020706.A4135@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <3BC5AC40.5D68091@cybershamanix.com>


     Perhaps someone out of country could put the recorded interviews up on
a website in streaming/realplayer/quicktime/whatever format?

Declan McCullagh wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 11:37:08PM -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote:
> >        And hopefully we'll be able to get the unedited transcripts from
> > somewhere?
>
> Um, right. I'm sure the White House will be overjoyed. Besides, how could
> you tell it's an accurate transcript?
>
> See also an excerpt from a WH briefing Wed:
> http://www.politechbot.com/p-02643.html
>
> -Declan

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver at cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html




From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu  Thu Oct 11 06:38:14 2001
From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:38:14 -0400
Subject: Bert-Bin Laden: Declan explains it all
In-Reply-To: <20011010233623.B22187@cluebot.com>
References: 
  <20011010210109.A27986@ils.unc.edu>
  <20011010233623.B22187@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <20011011093814.C15371@ils.unc.edu>


On Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 11:36:23PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 09:01:09PM -0400, Greg Newby wrote:
> > The newspaper evidently has two versions:
> > http://www.tctubantia.nl/CDA/regioportal/1%2c2078%2c1654__772741_%2c00.html
> > http://www.tctubantia.nl/CDA/regioportal/1,2078,1654__772741_,00.html
> 
> Don't these map to the same URL? In any case, both look identically
> Bertful to me.

I just checked yet again...the 2nd link has Bert cropped.  I
resized my window, so it's not some funky javascript.  They're
not the same image.  The images don't have the same filename.

Maybe this is some sort of artifact, because it seems like
they should be the same article.  The %2c on my Apache server
does map to a comma.

The image filenames on the server are:
http://www.tctubantia.nl/gfx/gfx_nieuw/kranten/TC/artikelvisuals/772741-41140-groot.jpg (no bert)

and

http://www.tctubantia.nl/gfx/gfx_nieuw/kranten/TC/artikelvisuals/772741-40533-groot.jpg  (with bert).  I've reloaded etc., this isn't just a Web
cache artifact.

Thanks, FogStorm for pointing out it's a stealth bomber being
refueled, and not ET.  You gotta admit, it looks like ET, with
air intakes for eyes.
  -- Greg




From mattd at useoz.com  Wed Oct 10 16:39:14 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:39:14 +1000
Subject: Fwd: RE: who wants to be a millionaire
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011011093528.00a55b30@pop.useoz.com>


Sandy wrote- ...Please back up your supposition. > As sandy is such a 
doubting thomas... Nope, I just know more than you : D

>> > The suppostition is that AP can work without
>> > violence and even without payment,Many will
>> > never believe that possible That doesnt mean
>> > its impossible.Im sure you know more than me
>> > so dont write me again please,thanks.
>>
>>Okay, you stay off the list and I won't write to you.  Okay?
>>
>>
>>  S a n d y  "streetsweeper"
>Ill stay off the list when all the spam and govt agents stay off it,have 
>you written to them?mattd.




From dbob at semtex.com  Thu Oct 11 09:40:56 2001
From: dbob at semtex.com (Dynamite Bob)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:40:56 -0700
Subject: Another Bin Laden Bird, with note about a failed '98 launch
Message-ID: <3BC5CB98.D97B6ADF@semtex.com>


http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAM3FAROSC.html
CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla. (AP) - A secret satellite for the 
 National Reconnaissance Office rocketed into space amid 
 heightened security.

 Wednesday night's launch was the third in just over a month of a 
 classified NRO satellite, and had been scheduled long before the 
 Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

 For security reasons, the Air Force did not reveal the exact time of 
 Wednesday's launch until 1 1/2 hours before the 10:32 p.m. liftoff.

 No details about the satellite were given out. But Aviation Week & 
 Space Technology, a trade magazine, reported that the payload was 
 a data-relay satellite designed to transfer images and other 
 information from U.S. spy satellites to the CIA and the Defense 
 Department.

 "Our motto at the 45th Space Wing is, control of the battlefield starts 
 here," Air Force Maj. Michael Rein said from the Cape Canaveral 
 Air Force Station launch site.

 The satellite was hoisted into orbit by an Atlas rocket, made by 
 Lockheed Martin Corp.

...........

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/1998/08/980829-mercury.htm

xploded Satellite Was To Track Osama Bin Laden 

    CBS EVENING NEWS CBS TV 
    7:00 PM AUGUST 29, 1998 

    __________________________________________ 

    PAULA ZAHN: America's justification for a strike on a pharmaceutical
plant in Sudan two weeks ago
    is now being questioned by some experts. U.S. officials have
revealed few details of the strike in
    retaliation for the bombings of U.S. embassies in Kenya and
Tanzania. But the New York Times reports
    some statements have proved to be inaccurate or misleading. Such as,
the plant was apparently not a
    high-secret facility. The plant did produce commercial products,
including medicine. And alleged
    terrorist leader Osama Bin Laden's financial role in the plant was
apparently overstated. Still, U.S.
    officials say the target was the right one. And they say Bin Laden,
the exiled Saudi millionaire, poses a
    direct threat to the U.S. Tracking his activities has not been easy.
And Jim Stewart tells us, that effort
    recently met a major setback. 

    JIM STEWART: On the face of it, you'd think there was no connection
between those August 7th
    explosions at two U.S. embassies in east Africa and this explosion
one week later off the coast of Cape
    Canaveral, Florida. But private intelligence analysts now believe
that the spy satellite aboard that
    doomed Titan-4 missile was destined to listen in on the private
conversations of Osama Bin Laden. The
    very man believed responsible for the African bombings. 

    JAMES BAMFORD [Satellite Intelligence Expert]: It would have given
us a much better opportunity to
    eavesdrop on communications in that area of the world. Because that
satellite was designed to be
    placed over Africa. And one of its target areas would have been the
Middle East and Afghanistan. 

    STEWART: Analysts say Bin Laden, although he lived among
Afghanistan's revolutionary leaders in a
    rugged country, was particularly vulnerable to such eavesdropping.
He conducted much of his business
    using encrypted cell phones and fax machines over a private
satellite channel. Just the sort of
    communications the new Mercury spy satellite, with it's football
field-sized antenna, is designed to pick
    up. 

    JOHN PIKE [Satellite expert]: He can use couriers that can move
money around in bales of $100 bills.
    But at the end of the day, they're going to have to use some modern
communications technology, and we
    can track him when he does. 

    STEWART: Counter-terrorism experts at the C.I.A. and National
Reconnaissance Office have been
    pouring over Bin Laden intercepts from older satellites ever since
the World Trade Center bombing,
    when the arrest of the bomb maker in that case, Ramses Youseph, led
them straight back to Bin Laden.
    The man who bankrolled the whole thing. All of which explains why
finding Bin Laden and keeping up
    with his communications remains such a high priority. And why losing
that billion-dollar spy satellite
    two and a half weeks ago off Florida is causing such a major
headache for the U.S. intelligence
    community. 

    Jim Stewart, CBS News, Washington. 

 On Sept. 8, another Atlas rocket delivered an NRO satellite to orbit 
 from Vandenberg Air Force Base in California. Last week, a Titan IV 
 rocket launched another NRO satellite, also from Vandenberg.




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Thu Oct 11 09:47:15 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:47:15 -0700
Subject: [BIOWAR] Al Qaida biological warfare factories attacked (fwd) 
Message-ID: <3BC5CD13.9156D9BE@lsil.com>


Steve Furlong  wrote :
>Eugene Leitl wrote:
> >http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=81505&contrassID=1&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=0
>...
>> Among the bases attacked in the U.S.-led strikes in Afghanistan was an
>> Osama bin Laden camp which served as a production facility for
>> poisonous chemicals, including biological warfare agents.
>
>If that proves out, I'd say the US can now tell the Taliban, roll over
>or be nuked, in accordance with long-held US policy. Same for any other
>nation which assisted Osama bert Laden and his gang of merry thugs.
>
>SRF
>
On a similar "pulling out all the stops" note, I'll betcha a nickel that
the early indicators of biological weapons use and the potential for
nuclear and chemical attacks means that the CIA gets first dibs on
prisoner interrogations with no restrictions on methods. Hard to not
approve, actually, when you consider that something like variola can
have ~30% mortality and would have likely nearly 100% infection rate.
Rules? Screw the rules.

Mike




From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Thu Oct 11 07:50:40 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:50:40 -0500
Subject: NYT:At U.S. Request, Networks Agree to Edit Future
  binLadenTapes
References: 
  <3BC52196.6FBB9725@cybershamanix.com>
  <20011011020706.A4135@cluebot.com>
  <5.0.2.1.0.20011011103421.02635920@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <3BC5B1B4.595A2E3C@cybershamanix.com>


      Well, I would assume that if the US media is going to censor the
interviews, Osama wouldn't bother sending the tapes to them in the first place,
but instead to some non-US broadcast outlet. Or are you saying that the New
World Order is already so entrenched that Dubbya already has them all locked
down? Otherwise, why should they care about "taunting Happy Fun Fed"?

Declan McCullagh wrote:

> I believe that qualify as taunting Happy Fun Fed.
>
> -Declan
>
> At 09:27 AM 10/11/01 -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote:
> >      Perhaps someone out of country could put the recorded interviews up on
> >a website in streaming/realplayer/quicktime/whatever format?

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver at cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Thu Oct 11 07:00:14 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 10:00:14 -0400
Subject: Freedoms Curtailed In Defense Of Liberty
Message-ID: 


> measl at mfn.org[SMTP:measl at mfn.org] wrote:
> 
> 
> On Wed, 10 Oct 2001, Steve Furlong wrote:
> 
> > measl at mfn.org wrote:
> > 
> > > Yeah, the fascist government of the united states...
> > 
> > > Jesus christ!!!  What was that about watering the tree???
> > 
> > 
> > The (elided) article from _The Onion_. You might not want to rely on
> 
> Shit!  I didn't catch that!  I've obviously been working way too many
> hours :-(
> 
> > SRF
> 
> -- 
> Yours, 
> J.A. Terranson
> sysadmin at mfn.org
> 
The scary thing, or course, is that this is so close to current
government rhetoric that intelligent, observent people have to
look twice realize that (for the moment) it's satire. 

Life is starting to imitate art. Too bad the artist is Orwell.

Peter Trei




From declan at well.com  Thu Oct 11 07:00:15 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 10:00:15 -0400
Subject: Bert-Bin Laden: Declan explains it all
In-Reply-To: <20011011093814.C15371@ils.unc.edu>; from
  gbnewby@ils.unc.edu on Thu, Oct 11, 2001 at 09:38:14AM -0400
References: 
  <20011010210109.A27986@ils.unc.edu>
  <20011010233623.B22187@cluebot.com>
  <20011011093814.C15371@ils.unc.edu>
Message-ID: <20011011100015.A29685@cluebot.com>


On Thu, Oct 11, 2001 at 09:38:14AM -0400, Greg Newby wrote:
> The image filenames on the server are:
> http://www.tctubantia.nl/gfx/gfx_nieuw/kranten/TC/artikelvisuals/772741-41140-groot.jpg (no bert)

Ack, you're right!

Time for a petition drive: "Bring Back Bert!"

-Declan




From declan at well.com  Thu Oct 11 07:34:38 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 10:34:38 -0400
Subject: NYT:At U.S. Request, Networks Agree to Edit Future bin
  LadenTapes
In-Reply-To: <3BC5AC40.5D68091@cybershamanix.com>
References: 
  <3BC52196.6FBB9725@cybershamanix.com>
  <20011011020706.A4135@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20011011103421.02635920@mail.well.com>


I believe that qualify as taunting Happy Fun Fed.

-Declan

At 09:27 AM 10/11/01 -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>      Perhaps someone out of country could put the recorded interviews up on
>a website in streaming/realplayer/quicktime/whatever format?




From dbob at semtex.com  Thu Oct 11 10:59:56 2001
From: dbob at semtex.com (Dynamite Bob)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 10:59:56 -0700
Subject: [BIOWAR] Al Qaida biological warfare factories attacked (fwd) 
Message-ID: <3BC5DE1C.E12A14C2@semtex.com>


>On a similar "pulling out all the stops" note, I'll betcha a nickel that
>the early indicators of biological weapons use and the potential for
>nuclear and chemical attacks means that the CIA gets first dibs on
>prisoner interrogations with no restrictions on methods. 

Worse ---the CIA will bring in Mossad...




From jya at pipeline.com  Thu Oct 11 11:08:26 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:08:26 -0700
Subject: Tracking the RIAA Source
Message-ID: <200110111514.LAA18038@smtp6.mindspring.com>


Thanks to help from a person here we have developed a
likely source for the RIAA meeting messages, and at the
moment it appears likely Safeweb was used to send the 
messages as well as check on the Cryptome file.

Safeweb appears to dynamically assign addresses to users,
though within a limited range which might be set by the location
of the user, but we are not sure of that. Indeed, if Safeweb
does not cloak location by avoiding a predictable range that
would be a serious weakness. But we need to test that.

Safeweb is, at least in part, hosted by the giant ISP Abovenet,
home-based in San Jose, CA, with facilities all around the
US and overseas. To help us triangulate a likely location
from which the messages were sent we need to log accesses
to Cryptome from a variety of US and overseas locations.

For example I get the same range of addresses as those of the 
RIAA messages and file accesses by logging in from New York
City to Safeweb.com then using Safeweb to request a Cryptome 
file. What I don't know is whether those same addresses would
be used from other physical locations around the world.

For anybody who wants to risk giving away their own location
I ask that accesses be made from the Safeweb.com from any 
location in the world to a fictitious file on Cryptome:

  http://cryptome.org/this-is-safeweb-xxxxxxxx.htm

Replace xxxxxxx with a clue to your location, say, texas, germany,
whereever I could identify.

The request will generate an error code and an originating address
from Safeweb which I can use to compare to what I've got for
the RIAA messages and for NYC. Presumably Safeweb will cloak
your actual IP address.

Let me emphasize that I do not yet believe the source was
perpetrating a hoax, or if so whether the hoax was run to
benefit RIAA which is the current outcome. My intention is 
not to out the source if the leak is legitimate, but I damn well 
want to broadcast it if RIAA, its friends or a TLA cooked up 
the ruse.

Declan has jumped the gun on assigning blame here, apparently
doing little more checking than Tony Smith. But hell that
snotty Net competition at its best: fire, aim, oh, the safety was
off.




From declan at well.com  Thu Oct 11 08:12:59 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:12:59 -0400
Subject: Freedoms Curtailed In Defense Of Liberty
In-Reply-To: ; from ptrei@rsasecurity.com on Thu, Oct 11, 2001 at
  10:00:14AM -0400
References: 
Message-ID: <20011011111259.A31287@cluebot.com>


On Thu, Oct 11, 2001 at 10:00:14AM -0400, Trei, Peter wrote:
> The scary thing, or course, is that this is so close to current
> government rhetoric that intelligent, observent people have to
> look twice realize that (for the moment) it's satire. 
> 
> Life is starting to imitate art. Too bad the artist is Orwell.

In that particular story, art is not imitating life, but quoting from it.

The Onion story:
  http://www.theonion.com/onion3736/freedoms_curtailed.html
  "all Americans -- not just outspoken talk-show hosts like Bill Maher
  -- must watch what they say"

The WH spokesman's real quote:
  "There are reminders to all Americans that they need to watch
   what they say, watch what they do, and this is not a time for remarks
  like that; there never is."

-Declan




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Thu Oct 11 11:17:26 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:17:26 -0700
Subject: WARNING : ( Re: Add REAL Inches To Your Package! GUARANTEED )
Message-ID: <3BC5E236.8563B31A@lsil.com>


WARNING : Not only is this off-topic but it is foolish as well.

WARNING : Be careful when selecting a package size - shipping could
become a problem


UPS is recommended :
--------------------
 http://www.ups.com/using/services/packaging/wtsize-guide.html

MAXIMUM PACKAGE LIMITATIONS

The following weight and size limits apply to packages you send via
all UPS domestic and international services: 

Up to 150 pounds or 70 kilograms (68 kilograms in Canada)

Up to 130 inches or 330 centimeters in length and girth combined

Up to 108 inches or 270 centimeters in length

Note: Packages that exceed UPS weight and size limits are
subject to an Over Maximum Limits charge. Refer to the UPS
Tariff for details.

HOW TO MEASURE SIZE

Length is the longest side of a package or
object. Girth is the distance all the way
around the package or object at its widest
point perpendicular to the length. 

Add Length and Girth measurements
together to obtain total package size.


FedEx is for small fry :
------------------------
 http://rate.dmz.fedex.com/us/services/packaging/


If UPS can't handle IT, contact these guys :
--------------------------------------------

Domestic :
 http://www.yellowfreight.com/
 http://www.trucking-companies.com/

Export :
 http://www.maersk.com/
 http://www.inchcape-shipping.com/index2.asp

:)




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Thu Oct 11 08:19:06 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:19:06 -0400
Subject: [BIOWAR]  Al Qaida biological warfare factories attacked (fwd)
References: 
Message-ID: <3BC5B86A.2B2D591F@acmenet.net>


Eugene Leitl wrote:

> http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=81505&contrassID=1&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=0
...
> Among the bases attacked in the U.S.-led strikes in Afghanistan was an
> Osama bin Laden camp which served as a production facility for
> poisonous chemicals, including biological warfare agents.

If that proves out, I'd say the US can now tell the Taliban, roll over
or be nuked, in accordance with long-held US policy. Same for any other
nation which assisted Osama bert Laden and his gang of merry thugs.

(If Clintoon were still in office, I wouldn't believe it was a real
biowar lab without seeing it myself, and probably not then. But Bush43
hasn't yet been tarred with the brush of incessant lying and bombing to
distract attention from his own shortcomings.)


SRF

-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From declan at well.com  Thu Oct 11 08:46:59 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:46:59 -0400
Subject: How civil liberties groups split over Senate wiretap bill
Message-ID: <20011011114659.A32481@cluebot.com>


http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,47490,00.html

   ...

   Civil liberties groups have split over how to react to the impending
   vote on the most important wiretapping and eavesdropping bill in a
   generation.
   
   The American Civil Liberties Union has taken a hard-line approach,
   asking its members to reject the entire bill. An alert calls the USA
   Act "a bill that would significantly undermine many of the freedoms
   that Americans hold dear."
   
   The Electronic Frontier Foundation of San Francisco has taken a
   similar position, saying that "Sen. Feingold is expected to offer some
   amendments, but they will not address all of the concerns with this
   legislation."
   
   Feingold's amendments rewrite only a tiny portion of the vast bill.
   Even with them, the USA Act would still allow police to conduct
   Internet eavesdropping without a court order in some circumstances,
   allow federal prosecutors to imprison non-citizens indefinitely, and
   extend the duration of an electronic surveillance order issued by a
   secret court from 90 to 120 days.
   
   The Washington-based Center for Democracy and Technology is taking a
   noticeably milder approach.
   
   CDT is not urging the activists who populate its e-mail alert lists to
   tell their senators to oppose the USA Act. Instead, in an alert dated
   late Wednesday, CDT says: "Call your senators in Washington right away
   and let them know that you think civil liberties should be part of the
   balance as we move forward to protect our country from terrorism. Urge
   them to support the Feingold privacy amendments."

   ...




From declan at well.com  Thu Oct 11 08:47:40 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:47:40 -0400
Subject: Feingold amendment text URL (was Re:CDT:congressional
  actioncall-beforeFrida ymorning,October12,2001)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20011011114500.0273d4c0@mail.well.com>


Fortunately, I have other things to do in my life than please you. I placed 
the text online as soon as I could, which was this morning:
http://www.wartimeliberty.com/article.pl?sid=01/10/11/1430203

-Declan

At 08:39 AM 10/11/01 -0700, citizenQ wrote:
>I would -prefer- to read the text for myself too, and I'm pissed off at 
>CDT, EFF, Congressional Record, and you for that matter, for not being on 
>the case earlier.  If it came down to it I think I'd trust CDT EFF et. al. 
>enough -it's not like trusting Ashcroft or Shrub- but of course you're right.
>
>The amendment text is at
>http://www.cdt.org/security/011011s1510feingold.pdf




From mclark at cdt.org  Thu Oct 11 08:57:57 2001
From: mclark at cdt.org (Michael Clark)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:57:57 -0400
Subject: Feingold amendment text URL (was Re: CDT: congressional
 action call - before Friday morning, October 12, 2001)
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 


Hi all,

We were on the case. But we did not get a postable copy of the text 
until Thursday morning and it was posted on our site.

A fact sheet on Sen. Feingold's amendments is now available at 
http://www.cdt.org/security/011011feingoldfactsheet.shtml

You can also find out who your Senators are at CDT's site at 
http://www.cdt.org/action/feingold/ or 
http://www.cdt.org/action/contactcongress.shml Michael

>I would -prefer- to read the text for myself too, and I'm pissed off 
>at CDT, EFF, Congressional Record, and you for that matter, for not 
>being on the case earlier.  If it came down to it I think I'd trust 
>CDT EFF et. al. enough -it's not like trusting Ashcroft or Shrub- 
>but of course you're right.
>
>The amendment text is at
>http://www.cdt.org/security/011011s1510feingold.pdf
>
>
>  >
>  > CDT is on the right track, but I'd be hesitant to call my senators and
>  > endorse Feingold's amendments until I knew what they said. The CDT
>  > alert is silent on details. That's a shame, since they could have
>  > easily included a summary of the amendments (which I really will put
>  > online soon, along with their text).
>  >
>  > -Declan
>  >
>  >
>  > On Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 11:14:37PM -0700, citizenQ wrote:
>  > > Dear Activist:
>  > >
>  > > Things are moving very fast on Capitol Hill.  Legislation to expand
>  > > government surveillance will be considered by the Senate (and
>  > > maybe the House) on Thursday, October 11.
>  > >
>  > > In the Senate, Sen. Russ Feingold is planning to offer amendments
>  > > Thursday morning that will address some of the privacy concerns
>  > > raised by the pending bills, by requiring government surveillance to
>  > > be more focused and subject to meaningful judicial controls.  CDT
>  > > supports the Feingold amendments.
>  > >
>  > > You can make a difference. Call your Senators in Washington right
>  > > away and let them know that you think civil liberties should be part of
>  > > the balance as we move forward to protect our country from terrorism.
>  > > Urge them to support the Feingold privacy amendments
>  > >
>  > > BACKGROUND
>  > >
>  > > Following the horrendous attacks of September 11, it is clear that US
>  > > anti-terrorism efforts need to be improved.  Unfortunately, there has
>  > > been little time to develop a response that is effective and does not
>  > > unnecessarily infringe civil liberties.  Legislation moving quickly
>  > > through Congress involves some fundamental changes in the
>  > > surveillance laws.  Most of the changes are not limited to terrorism
>  > > cases, but concern all crimes and all intelligence investigations.
>  > >
>  > > Among other things, the bills would:
>  > >
>  > > * Allow FBI to seize any and all stored records (medical records,
>  > > educational records, stored e-mail) in intelligence cases without a
>  > > search warrant.
>  > >
>  > > * Allow computer system operators to authorize government
>  > > surveillance without a court order (the computer trespasser
>  > > provision).
>  > >
>  > > * Authorize roving taps in intelligence cases without clear guidelines,
>  > > allowing government to monitor pay phones, library computers, cell
>  > > phones without first determining who is using the device.
>  > >
>  > > * Allow secret searches (searches without notice at the time of the
>  > > search) in all criminal cases.
>  > >
>  > > * Extend government surveillance under minimal standards to broad
>  > > categories of Internet data  - all "routing, addressing and signaling
>  > > information" (the "pen register" provision).
>  > >
>  > > For full background the current civil liberties issues with the bill,
>  > > please see CDT's latest policy post --
>  > > http://www.cdt.org/publications/pp_7.10.shtml
>  > >
>  > > Also, the New York Times on October 10 explained the current
>  > > situation in the Senate and Sen Feingold's concerns--
>  > > http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/10/national/10RIGH.html
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > WHAT YOU CAN DO--MAKE YOUR VOICE HEARD
>  > >
>  > > 1. Call your your Senators
>  > >
>  > > [www.vote-smart.org can tell you who your sens are (duh)]
>  > >
>  > > Tell the person who answers the phone that you hope your Senator
>  > > will support the Feingold privacy amendment to the terrorism bill, so
>  > > that it adequately protects civil liberties when giving the government
>  > > new surveillance powers.
>  > >
>  > > Use these words if you feel tongue-tied:
>  > >
>  > > Staffer: Hello, Sen. XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX office.
>  > >
>  > > You: Hello.  I'm a constituent calling to urge the Senator to support the
>  > > Feingold privacy amendments to the anti-terrorism bill. Government
>  > > needs to fight terrorism, but the bill fails to protect privacy.  I'm
>  > > concerned about the provisions on Internet surveillance and roving
>  > > wiretaps.  I support the Feingold amendments setting clear limits on
>  > > government surveillance.
>  > >
>  > > Staffer: I'll tell the Senator.  Thanks, bye!
>  > >
>  > > 2. Let CDT know how it went! Go to
>  > >    http://www.cdt.org/action/feedback.cgi?membid=casr
>  > >    and use the feedback form to tell us what happened. Or you can
>  > >    send an email back to me at mclark at cdt.org.
>  > >
>  > > 3. Lastly, please forward this message to other individuals interested
>  > >    in protecting privacy and free expression on the Internet. They can
>  > >    find information about their Senators at http://www.cdt.org/action/.
>  > >    But they need to act right away. Forward this message until
>  > >    Friday morning, October 12, 2001.
>  > >
>  > > PLEASE NOTE:  We are asking you to call your Senators in
>  > > Washington because studies have shown that this is the most
>  > > effective way to make a difference over a short period of time.  By the
>  > > time the office reads your email or letter it will probably be too late
>  > > and a call into the district office does not have the same impact when
>  > > the Senator is in Washington.
>  > >
>  > > --
>  > > To subscribe to CDT's Activist Network, sign up at:
>  > >   http://www.cdt.org/join/
>  > >
>  > > If you ever wish to remove yourself from the list, unsubscribe at:
>  > >   http://www.cdt.org/action/unsubscribe.shtml
>  > >
>  > > If you just want to change your address, you should unsubscribe
>  > > yourself and then sign up again or contact: mclark at cdt.org


--
Michael Clark, Webmaster
Center for Democracy and Technology
1634 Eye Street NW, Suite 1100    Washington, DC 20006
voice: 202-637-9800    fax: 202-637-0968
mclark at cdt.org         http://www.cdt.org/
PGP Key available on keyservers

Join our Activist Network! Your participation can make a difference!
http://www.cdt.org/join/




From mattd at useoz.com  Wed Oct 10 19:02:02 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 12:02:02 +1000
Subject: who wants to be a millionaire
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011011114824.00a50dc0@pop.useoz.com>


Ill stay off the list when all the spam and govt agents stay off it


S a n d y
P.S. Mattd's dishonesty is very interesting. He added the "streetsweeper"
after my name within the supposedly quoted area. As John Wayne said in THE
COWBOYS, "I don't hold prison against a man, but I can't stand a liar."
mattd is a liar
Sandys sure nailed me there the old pedophile animal torturer,As hes 
obviously a wide walking genius
maybe he can help me out...Im wondering if the reward for binny binny bang 
bang is encrypted and
wouldnt that make it easier for someone(one of the 4 wives?)to collect 
anonymously.Sandy?
You dont have to stand me...just squeal like a pig .




From drt at un.bewaff.net  Thu Oct 11 03:02:35 2001
From: drt at un.bewaff.net (Doobee R. Tzeck)
Date: 11 Oct 2001 12:02:35 +0200
Subject: Talking to the Press Considered Harmful
In-Reply-To: Tim May's message of "Tue, 9 Oct 2001 21:23:03 -0700"
References: <20011010001203.A6096@cluebot.com>
	<7F6D52E4-BD36-11D5-8912-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <878zeimr44.fsf@c0re.rc23.cx>



Tim May  writes:
> On Tuesday, October 9, 2001, at 09:12 PM, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> > A large portion was B-roll of me typing dummy entries into
> > Microsoft Passport, [...]  They used about 7 seconds of what
> > I said.
> 
> About right. Four hours of your time for 7 seconds of commentary.
> 
> No wonder the networks are gradually going broke.
> 
> "Typing dummy entries." Typical. Faking the news.
> 
> (I had a sort of similar experience in '95 when the BBC wanted
> to interview me. [...])

I share Tims experience regarding the impact of interviews. I was
doing some presswork for the chaos computer club -
http://www.ccc.de/ and found out that especially TV costs you a
hell of time and often thorow away everything substantial or even
the whole interview at all. TV wants to "visualize", but crypto
or hacking can't be visualized in a TV compatible way.

While TV is worest the same is true for 98% of the journalists I
have met: They don't try to understand the komplex things you are
talking about and if they finnally might understand you they
still misquote you. This shouldn't supprise you. This shouldn't
supprise me because journalists are information dealers trying to
get maximum value from minimum effort. Since "trouth" doesn't
really attribute to value of an information they sell, why should
they care about?

The problem is that they are used to people beeing proud to be
interviewed. If you consider an interview as buiseness they are
totally set up. "Sure I can explain tis DDOS thing to you, my
consulting fee is 1000E per day" makes them really angry.

On the other hand talking to journalists may help sometimes to
influence actions of the goverment. E.g. the Chaos Computer Club
got a lot of press coverage in the 80s which lead to involvment
of the hacker community in the law-making process for cybercrime
and to an 'hacking is not a crime per se' legistation which i
consider a good thing.

So between writing code and talking to journalists, what are the
other choices?

drt




From drt at un.bewaff.net  Thu Oct 11 03:09:19 2001
From: drt at un.bewaff.net (Doobee R. Tzeck)
Date: 11 Oct 2001 12:09:19 +0200
Subject: Talking to the Press Considered Harmful
In-Reply-To: Declan McCullagh's message of "Tue, 9 Oct 2001 23:18:48 -0400"
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20011009220302.00a70d10@mail.well.com>
	<423F1008-BD27-11D5-B568-0050E439C473@got.net>
	<20011009231846.B1052@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <873d4qmqsw.fsf@c0re.rc23.cx>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: multipart/mixed
Size: 711 bytes
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URL: 

From shaunstamm at start.com.au  Thu Oct 11 12:39:57 2001
From: shaunstamm at start.com.au (Shaun)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 12:39:57
Subject: Last year 28,000 USA citizens became MILLIONAIRES with this concept
Message-ID: <200110110229.TAA00359@ecotone.toad.com>


Dear Internet Friends & Future Millionaire:

Please, take a few minutes of your time and read this
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AS ON NATIONAL TV:
Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from                                                                                                                                                                                                               
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==================================================
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--------------------<<<<>>>>------<<<<>>>>-------------------------
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=========================================================
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=========================================================
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=======================================================
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This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name 
and address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise 
until they receivethe report.

=========== AVAILABLE REPORTS ====================
ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. 
Notes:
Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks 
NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at 
least 2 sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, Write the 
NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are ordering, YOUR E-
MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address.

PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW :
====================================================
REPORT # 1: "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the 
Net" 

Order Report #1 from:

Shaun Stamm
P.O.Box 339
Corinda. Brisbane
Australia. 4075
_________________________________________________________
REPORT # 2: "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the 
Net"
Order Report # 2 from:

Scott Katip
3110 5th Ave
Beaver Falls, Pa 15010
USA
____________________________________________________________
REPORT # 3: "Secret to Multilevel Marketing on the Net"
Order Report # 3 from :

Chris Rhodes
7915 Kleingreen
Spring, Texas 77379
USA

__________________________________________________________
REPORT # 4: "How to Become a Millionaire Utilizing MLM & the 
Net"
Order Report # 4 from:

S. Wong
50 Burnhamthorpe Rd West #401
Mississauga, Ontario, L5B 3C2
Canada

___________________________________________
REPORT #5: "How to Send Out 0ne Million e-mails for Free"
Order Report # 5 from:

Zach Simmons
2135 Springwood
Carrollton, TX  75006
USA
___________________________________________
$$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$
Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:
=== If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2
weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do.
=== After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you
should receive 100 orders or more for REPORT # 2. If you did not,
continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do.
=== Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, 
YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, 
and the cash will continue to roll in ! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO 
REMEMBER:
Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in 
front of a Different report.
You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which 
report people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO 
GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-
MAILS AND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN.
There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate from this 
business !!!
======================================================
FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS
PROGRAM: You have just received information that can give you
financial freedom for the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST
A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money in the 
next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the 
program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any 
way. It works exceedingly well as it is now.
Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have 
put your name and address in Report #1 and moved others to #2 
...........# 5 as instructed above. One of the people you send this to 
may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be on 
every one of them.
Remember though, the more you send out the more potential 
customers you will reach.
So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and
opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU 
NOW!
============ MORE TESTIMONIALS ================
"My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an
accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good 
money.
When I received this program I grumbled to Jodyaboutreceiving 
''junk mail''. I made fun of the whole thing,spoutingmy knowledge 
of the population and percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't 
work. Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and few days 
later she jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and 
was ready to lay the old ''I told you so'' on her when the thing didn't 
work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had received 
50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received total 
$147,200.00 ........... all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jody
in her ''hobby''.
Mitchell Wolf M.D., Chicago, Illinois
======================================================
''Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up 
my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I 
decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no 
way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money 
back''. '' I was surprised when I found my medium size post office 
box crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00in the first 12 weeks. 
The nice thing about this deal is that it does not matter where 
people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster 
return and so big."
Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada
=======================================================
''I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I 
wondered if I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea 
who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-
mailed again by someone else.........11 months passed then it luckily 
came again...... I did not delete this one! I made more than $490,000 
on my first try and all the money came within 22 weeks."
Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y.
=======================================================
''It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with
little cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully and
within 10 days the money started to come in. My first month I made
$20,560.00 and by the end of third month my total cash count was
$362,840.00. Life is beautiful, Thanx to internet.".
Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand
=======================================================
ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON
'YOUR' ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM !
=======================================================
If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact 
the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal 
Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, 
D.C. 1-800-827-5722
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For some of you it will take a few times of reading as it did with 
myself, but be assured that this is a very successful money making 
opportunity.
It requires very little time and the reward is incredible! The more 
people that see your ad the better your response rate will be. IT'S 
ALL IN THE NUMBERS. Remember, be honest and be fair and 
you will be on your way to" Financial Freedom".

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This ad is being sent in compliance with Senate bill 1618, Title
3, section 301.Here is a more detailed version of the legal
notice above:This message is sent in compliance of the new e-mail
bill: SECTION 301. Per Section 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S.
1618,Further transmissions to you by the sender of this email may
be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply to this email
address with the word "remove" in the subject line.







From shaunstamm at start.com.au  Thu Oct 11 12:39:57 2001
From: shaunstamm at start.com.au (Shaun)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 12:39:57
Subject: Last year 28,000 USA citizens became MILLIONAIRES with this concept
Message-ID: <200110110311.f9B3Bnb04339@ak47.algebra.com>


Dear Internet Friends & Future Millionaire:

Please, take a few minutes of your time and read this
artical. This is a very real opportunity to change your
life financially with little effort on your part. Please,
read every word, If you don't have time to read it now,
save this email and come back to it later. It's proven,
tested and " WORKS LIKE A CHARM !" read on.........

AS ON NATIONAL TV:
Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from                                                                                                                                                                                                               
our home for an investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars expense one 
time THANK'S TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE 
INTERNET !
==================================================
BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!!
--------------------<<<<>>>>------<<<<>>>>-------------------------
No need for removal this is a one time mailing, DON'T MISS 
OUT!!
Before you say ''Bull'', please read the following. This is the letter 
you have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the 
popularity of this letter on the Internet, a national weekly news 
program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of this 
program described below, to see if it really can make people 
money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was 
legal.

Their findings proved once and for all that there are ''absolutely 
NO Laws prohibiting the participation in the program and if people 
can -follow the simple instructions, they are bound to make some 
mega bucks with only $25 out of pocket cost''. DUE TO THE 
RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS 
PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING 
BETTER THAN EVER.

This is what one had to say: ''Thanks to this profitable 
opportunity. I was approached many times before but each time I 
passed on it. I am so gladI finally joined just to see what one could 
expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. To my 
astonishment, I received total $610,470.00 in 21 weeks, with money 
still coming in." Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey.

===================================================
Here is another testimonial: "This program has been around for a 
long time but I never believed in it. But one day when I received this 
again in the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the 
simple instructions and walaa ..... 3 weeks later the money started to 
come in. First month I only made $240.00 but the next 2 months 
after that I made a total of $290,000.00. So far, in the past 8 months 
by re-entering the program, I have made over $710,000.00 and I am 
playing it again. The key to success in this program is to follow the 
simple steps and NOT change anything.'' More testimonials later 
but first, 
== PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTUREREFERENCE =====
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months 
easily and comfortably, please read the following...THEN READ 
IT AGAIN and AGAIN!!!
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR 
FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, GUARANTEED! 
INSTRUCTIONS:

=====Order all 5 reports shown on the list below =====
For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF 
THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL 
ADDRESS to the person whose name appears ON THAT LIST 
next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS 
ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail
problems.

=== When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 
reports.
You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your 
computer and resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5=$25.00.
Within a few days you will receive, vie e-mail, each of the 5 reports 
from these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer so 
they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who 
will order them from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and 
keep it on your desk in case something happen to your computer.

IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people who are 
listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way 
other than what is instructed below in step '' 1 through 6 '' or you 
will loose out on majority of your profits. Once you understand the 
way this works, you will also see how it does not work if you 
change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter, 
it will NOT work !!! People have tried to put their friends/relatives 
names on all five thinking they could get all the money.
But it does not work this way. Believe us, we all have tried to be 
greedy and then nothing happened. So Do Not try to change 
anything other than what is instructed. Because if you do, it will not 
work for you. Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!!

1.... After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement 
and REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. 
This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting 
their fortune.
2.Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5.

3.Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4.

4.Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3.

5.Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2

6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. 
PLEASE MAKE
SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY!

=========================================================
**** Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and 
save it on your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER 
CHANGES.
Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose any data. To 
assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 
reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing 
information which includes how to send bulk e-mails legally, where 
to find thousands of free classified ads and much more. There are 2 
Primary methods to get this venture going: 

METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY
=========================================================
Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and 
we will assume You and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails 
each. Let's also assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% response 
(the response could be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2%. 
Also many people will send out hundreds of thousands e-mails 
instead of only 5,000 each). Continuing with this example, you send 
out only 5,000 e-mails. With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders 
for report # 1. Those 10 people responded by sending out 5,000 e-
mail each for a total of 50,000. Out of those 50,000 e-mails only 
0.2% responded with orders. That's=100 people responded and
ordered Report # 2. Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each 
for a total of 500,000 e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 1000 
orders for Report # 3. Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails 
each for a total of 5 million e-mails sent out. The 0.2% response to 
that is 10,000 orders for Report # 4. Those 10,000 people send out 
5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000,000 (50 million) e-mails. The 
0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for Report # 5 THAT'S 
100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH=$500,000.00 (half million).
Your total income in this example is: 1..... $50 + 2..... $500 + 3.....
$5,000 + 4 ... $50,000 + 5..... $500,000 ........ Grand Total=$555,550.00
NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND 
FIGUREOUT
THE WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER 
HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT 
OF MONEY !
=========================================================
REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE
ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO.
Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone or half 
or even one 4th of those people mailed 100,000e-mails each or 
more? There are over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide 
and counting. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more!

METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET
=======================================================
Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there are 
hundreds of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on 
the Internet will easily get a larger response. We strongly suggest 
you start with Method # 1 and dd METHOD # 2 as you go along. 
For every $5 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the Report 
they ordered. That's it. Always provide same day service on all 
orders.

This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name 
and address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise 
until they receivethe report.

=========== AVAILABLE REPORTS ====================
ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. 
Notes:
Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks 
NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at 
least 2 sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, Write the 
NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are ordering, YOUR E-
MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address.

PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW :
====================================================
REPORT # 1: "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the 
Net" 

Order Report #1 from:

Shaun Stamm
P.O.Box 339
Corinda. Brisbane
Australia. 4075
_________________________________________________________
REPORT # 2: "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the 
Net"
Order Report # 2 from:

Scott Katip
3110 5th Ave
Beaver Falls, Pa 15010
USA
____________________________________________________________
REPORT # 3: "Secret to Multilevel Marketing on the Net"
Order Report # 3 from :

Chris Rhodes
7915 Kleingreen
Spring, Texas 77379
USA

__________________________________________________________
REPORT # 4: "How to Become a Millionaire Utilizing MLM & the 
Net"
Order Report # 4 from:

S. Wong
50 Burnhamthorpe Rd West #401
Mississauga, Ontario, L5B 3C2
Canada

___________________________________________
REPORT #5: "How to Send Out 0ne Million e-mails for Free"
Order Report # 5 from:

Zach Simmons
2135 Springwood
Carrollton, TX  75006
USA
___________________________________________
$$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$
Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:
=== If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2
weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do.
=== After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you
should receive 100 orders or more for REPORT # 2. If you did not,
continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do.
=== Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, 
YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, 
and the cash will continue to roll in ! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO 
REMEMBER:
Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in 
front of a Different report.
You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which 
report people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO 
GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-
MAILS AND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN.
There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate from this 
business !!!
======================================================
FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS
PROGRAM: You have just received information that can give you
financial freedom for the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST
A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money in the 
next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the 
program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any 
way. It works exceedingly well as it is now.
Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have 
put your name and address in Report #1 and moved others to #2 
...........# 5 as instructed above. One of the people you send this to 
may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be on 
every one of them.
Remember though, the more you send out the more potential 
customers you will reach.
So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and
opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU 
NOW!
============ MORE TESTIMONIALS ================
"My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an
accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good 
money.
When I received this program I grumbled to Jodyaboutreceiving 
''junk mail''. I made fun of the whole thing,spoutingmy knowledge 
of the population and percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't 
work. Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and few days 
later she jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and 
was ready to lay the old ''I told you so'' on her when the thing didn't 
work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had received 
50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received total 
$147,200.00 ........... all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jody
in her ''hobby''.
Mitchell Wolf M.D., Chicago, Illinois
======================================================
''Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up 
my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I 
decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no 
way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money 
back''. '' I was surprised when I found my medium size post office 
box crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00in the first 12 weeks. 
The nice thing about this deal is that it does not matter where 
people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster 
return and so big."
Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada
=======================================================
''I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I 
wondered if I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea 
who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-
mailed again by someone else.........11 months passed then it luckily 
came again...... I did not delete this one! I made more than $490,000 
on my first try and all the money came within 22 weeks."
Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y.
=======================================================
''It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with
little cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully and
within 10 days the money started to come in. My first month I made
$20,560.00 and by the end of third month my total cash count was
$362,840.00. Life is beautiful, Thanx to internet.".
Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand
=======================================================
ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON
'YOUR' ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM !
=======================================================
If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact 
the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal 
Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, 
D.C. 1-800-827-5722
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For some of you it will take a few times of reading as it did with 
myself, but be assured that this is a very successful money making 
opportunity.
It requires very little time and the reward is incredible! The more 
people that see your ad the better your response rate will be. IT'S 
ALL IN THE NUMBERS. Remember, be honest and be fair and 
you will be on your way to" Financial Freedom".

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This ad is being sent in compliance with Senate bill 1618, Title
3, section 301.Here is a more detailed version of the legal
notice above:This message is sent in compliance of the new e-mail
bill: SECTION 301. Per Section 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S.
1618,Further transmissions to you by the sender of this email may
be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply to this email
address with the word "remove" in the subject line.







From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Thu Oct 11 05:00:09 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:00:09 +0100
Subject: FBI grammar (was Re: FBI utilizing supermarket club cards
  in   profiling)
References:  <20011010191939.9979.qmail@sidereal.kz>
Message-ID: <3BC589C9.13B9765C@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


"Dr. Evil" wrote:
> 
> > There was a time when "data" was purely the plural form of latin "datum".
> > Not anymore. The first example given by the online Merriam-Webster
> > dictionary is, whattayaknow, "the data is plentiful and easily available".
> 
> Some of us will always know that "data" is plural

In Latin maybe. But English has this nice thing with countable and
non-countable forms of nouns. "That data" and "those  data" mean subtly
different things. Like "Some bread" and "some breads".




From jya at pipeline.com  Thu Oct 11 13:11:40 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:11:40 -0700
Subject: Tracking the RIAA Source
In-Reply-To: <200110111514.LAA18038@smtp6.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <200110111717.NAA18561@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>


>From 14 users of Safeweb scattered around the US and 
several overseas, the same range of IP addresses
were used. Which makes sense if all users logged into
the same Safeweb home page and from there logged
onto Cryptome. A few users logged in from their own
addresses just before or after using Safeweb for
comparison.

No triangulation with that method.

One thing my co-cpunk found by pinging Safeweb is that
the last couple of hops were in the NYC area:

13  lga1-ord2-oc48-2.lga1.above.net (208.185.156.158)  112.562 ms  111.984
ms  112.53 ms
14  core2-lga1-oc192.lga2.above.net (208.184.232.198)  114.423 ms  113.431
ms  112.688 ms
15  main1colo45-core2-oc48.lga2.above.net (216.200.127.174)  113.138 ms
113.855 ms  111.581 ms
16  208.184.48.189.safeweb.com (208.184.48.189)  113.78 ms  115.876 ms
113.534 ms
17  64.124.150.130.safeweb.com (64.124.150.130)  112.797 ms  112.937 ms
112.228 ms

This is on the assumption that "lga2" refers to "La Guardia,"
but that is not certain for the tag may have nothing to do with
physical location. However other above.net hops used airport
tags.

If you would like to ping Safeweb we would appreciate getting
the logs for comparison. Just be alert to this being a scam to snarf
your true identity, so leave off the first hop if you like, or just send in
the
last four or five hops leading up to Safeweb.

The IP addresses of 64.124.150.130 et seq. is what we are tracking, but 
note the other Safeweb address in the ping log. So we would like to get any
fresh safeweb addresses in ping logs beyond this range and altogether
different domains:

  64.124.150.130 - 64.124.150.144

Thanks.




From citizenQ at ziplip.com  Thu Oct 11 13:20:51 2001
From: citizenQ at ziplip.com (citizenQ)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:20:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: FBI warning
Message-ID: 


For Immediate Release
      October 11, 2001

                                         Washington D.C.
                                         FBI National Press Office


Certain information, while not specific as to target, gives the government reason to believe that there may be additional terrorist attacks within the United States and against U.S. interests overseas over the next several days. The FBI has again alerted all local law enforcement to be on the highest alert and we call on all people to immediately notify the FBI and local law enforcement of any unusual or suspicious activity. 




From fogstorm at mac.com  Thu Oct 11 13:21:31 2001
From: fogstorm at mac.com (FogStorm)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:21:31 -0700
Subject: FBI: More Attacks Soon
Message-ID: <200110112021.f9BKLNH04289@smtp-out.mac.com>


http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel01/skyfall.htm

"Certain information, while not specific as to target, gives the 
government reason to believe that there may be additional terrorist 
attacks within the United States and against U.S. interests overseas 
over the next several days. The FBI has again alerted all local law 
enforcement to be on the highest alert and we call on all people to 
immediately notify the FBI and local law enforcement of any unusual or 
suspicious activity."




From mstalbot at newsguy.com  Thu Oct 11 13:32:14 2001
From: mstalbot at newsguy.com (Mark Talbot)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:32:14 -0700
Subject: [BIOWAR] Al Qaida biological warfare factories attacked
  (fwd) 
In-Reply-To: <3BC5DE1C.E12A14C2@semtex.com>
Message-ID: <200110112032.NAA46078@newsguy.com>


On Thursday, October 11, 2001, at 10:59  AM, Dynamite Bob wrote:

>> On a similar "pulling out all the stops" note, I'll betcha a nickel 
>> that
>> the early indicators of biological weapons use and the potential for
>> nuclear and chemical attacks means that the CIA gets first dibs on
>> prisoner interrogations with no restrictions on methods.
>
> Worse ---the CIA will bring in Mossad...

The Egyptians too.




From wolf at priori.net  Thu Oct 11 13:33:38 2001
From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:33:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: FBI: More Attacks Soon
In-Reply-To: <200110112021.f9BKLNH04289@smtp-out.mac.com>
Message-ID: 


On Thu, 11 Oct 2001, FogStorm wrote:

> http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel01/skyfall.htm

"Skyfall", eh?


-MW-




From nectar at freeasiaxxx.com  Thu Oct 11 06:38:15 2001
From: nectar at freeasiaxxx.com (nectar at freeasiaxxx.com)
Date: 11 Oct 2001 13:38:15 -0000
Subject: You have been depressed lately!
Message-ID: <7017e9505dd8$3b636766$bb6e93bd@freeasiaxxx.com>


You’re gunna laugh your ass off at this one:

My newest girlfriend Tammy dumped me for looking at online
porn.  Not only that, but she accidentally walked in on me
while I was “looking” at it 
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(if you are curious).

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full deal.  

Her mom screamed, Tammy started yelling at me (she was so
pissed!), and all I could do was laugh.  She broke up with
me that night and called me a disgusting perv (she was lame
anyway).

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If you want us to stop sending you email then click here:
http://www.freeasiaxxx.com/db/




From fogstorm at mac.com  Thu Oct 11 13:46:49 2001
From: fogstorm at mac.com (FogStorm)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:46:49 -0700
Subject: FBI: More Attacks Soon
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <200110112046.f9BKkYH13368@smtp-out.mac.com>


On Thursday, October 11, 2001, at 01:33  PM, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote:

>> http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel01/skyfall.htm
>
> "Skyfall", eh?

Designated as such by Special Agent C. Little perhaps.




From zem at zip.com.au  Wed Oct 10 21:35:26 2001
From: zem at zip.com.au (Alex Shiels)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 14:35:26 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [maxinux@bigfoot.com: Re: Numbers Stations]
In-Reply-To: <3BC51C89.1040104@dante.com.au>
Message-ID: 


> From: maxinux 
> To: cypherpunks at lne.com
>
> if they broadcast over the us, they have to follow air guidlines aswell...
> neat how things work...
>
> All countries license the airwaves.. atleast in this area..

Most numbers stations use shortwave broadcast or amateur bands - roughly
1-30 MHz.  Licenses are required in the country where the transmitter is
located, not elsewhere.  Shortwave stations are almost always intended for
international broadcasting.

Here's the FCC's application form for a shortwave transmitter:

http://www.fcc.gov/ib/pnd/neg/hf_web/appinfo.html

"Any qualified US citizen, company, or group may apply to the Federal
Communications Commission (FCC) for authority to construct and operate a
high frequency (HF) (shortwave) international broadcasting station. [...]
It should be noted that an international broadcasting station is intended
for broadcasting to a foreign country and is not intended for broadcasting
solely to the United States."

More on numbers stations here, including loggings and presumed locations
of some transmitters:

http://spynumbers.com/


As an aside, this showed up on the spooks list a week or so back, I don't
think it made it to cypherpunks:

http://www.miami.com/herald/content/news/local/dade/digdocs/053821.htm

(Sep 22 2001)

"WASHINGTON -- FBI agents on Friday detained a 44-year-old senior analyst
with the Defense Intelligence Agency, a vital part of the U.S. national
security establishment, and charged her with providing U.S. national
secrets to Cuba.

[...]

Among the contents, it added, were instructions on how to erase material
from the computer, tips for radio reception, and references to ``the
numbers that you receive via radio.'' A short-wave radio was also found.
The complaint said that the FBI identified text consisting of 150 sets of
numerical groups.

``The text begins, `30107 24624,' and continues until 150 such groups are
listed. The FBI has determined that the precise same numbers, in the
precise same order, were broadcast on February 6, 1999, at AM frequency
7887 kHz, by a woman speaking Spanish, who introduced the broadcast with
the words `Atencisn! Atencisn!' '' the complaint said."


-- 
mailto:zem at zip.com.au F289 2BDB 1DA0 F4C4 DC87 EC36 B2E3 4E75 C853 FD93
http://zem.squidly.org/ "I'm invisible, I'm invisible, I'm invisible.."




From wolf at priori.net  Thu Oct 11 14:36:33 2001
From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 14:36:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: firing a high-powered combat rifle in an airport could do 
  moreharm  than  good
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Fri, 5 Oct 2001, Tim May wrote:

> It's called "Posse Commitatus," and it's clear that troops cannot be
> used on U.S. soil.
>
> There have been a _few_ cases where regular armed forces were deployed
> in emergencies. Of course, the War of Northern Aggression was one
> massive terror action and the army was of course deployed.
>
> The recent deployments in airports are of the National Guard. These
> units are under controls of _governors_ of states, and are not covered
> by Posse Comitatus. "Calling in the National Guard" has been common for
> many decades.

There's talk about using regular army troops at the Capitol:

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Authorities at the nation's Capitol building are
considering bringing in military troops to supplement U.S. Capitol police
officers and enhance security.

[...]

Nichols said authorities were "considering Department of Defense support."
That means the troops involved could be National Guard troops or they
could be regular Army troops or from another branch of the military.

[...]

From:

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/10/11/rec.capitol.vehicle.ban/index.html


-MW-




From fogstorm at mac.com  Thu Oct 11 14:41:30 2001
From: fogstorm at mac.com (FogStorm)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 14:41:30 -0700
Subject: White House has 'no information' on rumors of bin Laden capture
Message-ID: <200110112141.f9BLfbO01986@smtp-out.mac.com>


http://sg.news.yahoo.com/011011/1/1k8si.html

Thursday October 11, 10:30 PM

White House has 'no information' on rumors of bin Laden capture

WASHINGTON, Oct 11 (AFP) -

The White House has "no information" on rumors that Osama bin Laden, 
blamed here for September 11 terror strikes on the Pentagon and the 
World Trade Center, has been captured, spokesman Ari Fleischer said 
Thursday.

"I have no information on that," Fleischer told reporters.




From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org  Thu Oct 11 12:06:14 2001
From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 15:06:14 -0400
Subject: Tracking the RIAA Source
References: <200110111717.NAA18561@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3BC5EDA6.9050804@dragonsweb.org>


John Young wrote:

>>From 14 users of Safeweb scattered around the US and 
> several overseas, the same range of IP addresses
> were used. Which makes sense if all users logged into
> the same Safeweb home page and from there logged
> onto Cryptome. A few users logged in from their own
> addresses just before or after using Safeweb for
> comparison.
> 
> No triangulation with that method.
> 
> One thing my co-cpunk found by pinging Safeweb is that
> the last couple of hops were in the NYC area:
> 
> 13  lga1-ord2-oc48-2.lga1.above.net (208.185.156.158)  112.562 ms  111.984
> ms  112.53 ms
> 14  core2-lga1-oc192.lga2.above.net (208.184.232.198)  114.423 ms  113.431
> ms  112.688 ms
> 15  main1colo45-core2-oc48.lga2.above.net (216.200.127.174)  113.138 ms
> 113.855 ms  111.581 ms
> 16  208.184.48.189.safeweb.com (208.184.48.189)  113.78 ms  115.876 ms
> 113.534 ms
> 17  64.124.150.130.safeweb.com (64.124.150.130)  112.797 ms  112.937 ms
> 112.228 ms
> 
> This is on the assumption that "lga2" refers to "La Guardia,"
> but that is not certain for the tag may have nothing to do with
> physical location. However other above.net hops used airport
> tags.
> 
> If you would like to ping Safeweb we would appreciate getting
> the logs for comparison. Just be alert to this being a scam to snarf
> your true identity, so leave off the first hop if you like, or just send in
> the
> last four or five hops leading up to Safeweb.
> 
> The IP addresses of 64.124.150.130 et seq. is what we are tracking, but 
> note the other Safeweb address in the ping log. So we would like to get any
> fresh safeweb addresses in ping logs beyond this range and altogether
> different domains:
> 
>   64.124.150.130 - 64.124.150.144
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> 
> 

I get the same thing here once you hit the above.net edge router.

jbdigriz




From citizenQ at ziplip.com  Thu Oct 11 15:20:46 2001
From: citizenQ at ziplip.com (citizenQ)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 15:20:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Al Jazeera and Paki TV live on 'net
Message-ID: 


http://www.aljazeera.net/live.asx
server too busy.

http://www.ptv-news.com.pk/live_page.htm
Cute pic of bears playing now with lots of audioi crosstalk.  Jamming?




From declan at well.com  Thu Oct 11 12:23:24 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 15:23:24 -0400
Subject: Feingold amendment text URL (was Re: CDT: congressional
  action call - before Friday morning, October 12, 2001)
In-Reply-To: ; from mclark@cdt.org
  on Thu, Oct 11, 2001 at 11:57:57AM -0400
References: 
  
Message-ID: <20011011152324.A4267@cluebot.com>


Michael,

Indeed you guys were (and are) on top of things. But the factsheet
(http://www.cdt.org/security/011011feingoldfactsheet.shtml) has
been deleted.

-Declan


On Thu, Oct 11, 2001 at 11:57:57AM -0400, Michael Clark wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> We were on the case. But we did not get a postable copy of the text 
> until Thursday morning and it was posted on our site.
> 
> A fact sheet on Sen. Feingold's amendments is now available at 
> http://www.cdt.org/security/011011feingoldfactsheet.shtml
> 
> You can also find out who your Senators are at CDT's site at 
> http://www.cdt.org/action/feingold/ or 
> http://www.cdt.org/action/contactcongress.shml Michael
> 
> >I would -prefer- to read the text for myself too, and I'm pissed off 
> >at CDT, EFF, Congressional Record, and you for that matter, for not 
> >being on the case earlier.  If it came down to it I think I'd trust 
> >CDT EFF et. al. enough -it's not like trusting Ashcroft or Shrub- 
> >but of course you're right.
> >
> >The amendment text is at
> >http://www.cdt.org/security/011011s1510feingold.pdf
> >
> >
> >  >
> >  > CDT is on the right track, but I'd be hesitant to call my senators and
> >  > endorse Feingold's amendments until I knew what they said. The CDT
> >  > alert is silent on details. That's a shame, since they could have
> >  > easily included a summary of the amendments (which I really will put
> >  > online soon, along with their text).
> >  >
> >  > -Declan
> >  >
> >  >
> >  > On Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 11:14:37PM -0700, citizenQ wrote:
> >  > > Dear Activist:
> >  > >
> >  > > Things are moving very fast on Capitol Hill.  Legislation to expand
> >  > > government surveillance will be considered by the Senate (and
> >  > > maybe the House) on Thursday, October 11.
> >  > >
> >  > > In the Senate, Sen. Russ Feingold is planning to offer amendments
> >  > > Thursday morning that will address some of the privacy concerns
> >  > > raised by the pending bills, by requiring government surveillance to
> >  > > be more focused and subject to meaningful judicial controls.  CDT
> >  > > supports the Feingold amendments.
> >  > >
> >  > > You can make a difference. Call your Senators in Washington right
> >  > > away and let them know that you think civil liberties should be part of
> >  > > the balance as we move forward to protect our country from terrorism.
> >  > > Urge them to support the Feingold privacy amendments
> >  > >
> >  > > BACKGROUND
> >  > >
> >  > > Following the horrendous attacks of September 11, it is clear that US
> >  > > anti-terrorism efforts need to be improved.  Unfortunately, there has
> >  > > been little time to develop a response that is effective and does not
> >  > > unnecessarily infringe civil liberties.  Legislation moving quickly
> >  > > through Congress involves some fundamental changes in the
> >  > > surveillance laws.  Most of the changes are not limited to terrorism
> >  > > cases, but concern all crimes and all intelligence investigations.
> >  > >
> >  > > Among other things, the bills would:
> >  > >
> >  > > * Allow FBI to seize any and all stored records (medical records,
> >  > > educational records, stored e-mail) in intelligence cases without a
> >  > > search warrant.
> >  > >
> >  > > * Allow computer system operators to authorize government
> >  > > surveillance without a court order (the computer trespasser
> >  > > provision).
> >  > >
> >  > > * Authorize roving taps in intelligence cases without clear guidelines,
> >  > > allowing government to monitor pay phones, library computers, cell
> >  > > phones without first determining who is using the device.
> >  > >
> >  > > * Allow secret searches (searches without notice at the time of the
> >  > > search) in all criminal cases.
> >  > >
> >  > > * Extend government surveillance under minimal standards to broad
> >  > > categories of Internet data  - all "routing, addressing and signaling
> >  > > information" (the "pen register" provision).
> >  > >
> >  > > For full background the current civil liberties issues with the bill,
> >  > > please see CDT's latest policy post --
> >  > > http://www.cdt.org/publications/pp_7.10.shtml
> >  > >
> >  > > Also, the New York Times on October 10 explained the current
> >  > > situation in the Senate and Sen Feingold's concerns--
> >  > > http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/10/national/10RIGH.html
> >  > >
> >  > >
> >  > > WHAT YOU CAN DO--MAKE YOUR VOICE HEARD
> >  > >
> >  > > 1. Call your your Senators
> >  > >
> >  > > [www.vote-smart.org can tell you who your sens are (duh)]
> >  > >
> >  > > Tell the person who answers the phone that you hope your Senator
> >  > > will support the Feingold privacy amendment to the terrorism bill, so
> >  > > that it adequately protects civil liberties when giving the government
> >  > > new surveillance powers.
> >  > >
> >  > > Use these words if you feel tongue-tied:
> >  > >
> >  > > Staffer: Hello, Sen. XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX office.
> >  > >
> >  > > You: Hello.  I'm a constituent calling to urge the Senator to support the
> >  > > Feingold privacy amendments to the anti-terrorism bill. Government
> >  > > needs to fight terrorism, but the bill fails to protect privacy.  I'm
> >  > > concerned about the provisions on Internet surveillance and roving
> >  > > wiretaps.  I support the Feingold amendments setting clear limits on
> >  > > government surveillance.
> >  > >
> >  > > Staffer: I'll tell the Senator.  Thanks, bye!
> >  > >
> >  > > 2. Let CDT know how it went! Go to
> >  > >    http://www.cdt.org/action/feedback.cgi?membid=casr
> >  > >    and use the feedback form to tell us what happened. Or you can
> >  > >    send an email back to me at mclark at cdt.org.
> >  > >
> >  > > 3. Lastly, please forward this message to other individuals interested
> >  > >    in protecting privacy and free expression on the Internet. They can
> >  > >    find information about their Senators at http://www.cdt.org/action/.
> >  > >    But they need to act right away. Forward this message until
> >  > >    Friday morning, October 12, 2001.
> >  > >
> >  > > PLEASE NOTE:  We are asking you to call your Senators in
> >  > > Washington because studies have shown that this is the most
> >  > > effective way to make a difference over a short period of time.  By the
> >  > > time the office reads your email or letter it will probably be too late
> >  > > and a call into the district office does not have the same impact when
> >  > > the Senator is in Washington.
> >  > >
> >  > > --
> >  > > To subscribe to CDT's Activist Network, sign up at:
> >  > >   http://www.cdt.org/join/
> >  > >
> >  > > If you ever wish to remove yourself from the list, unsubscribe at:
> >  > >   http://www.cdt.org/action/unsubscribe.shtml
> >  > >
> >  > > If you just want to change your address, you should unsubscribe
> >  > > yourself and then sign up again or contact: mclark at cdt.org
> 
> 
> --
> Michael Clark, Webmaster
> Center for Democracy and Technology
> 1634 Eye Street NW, Suite 1100    Washington, DC 20006
> voice: 202-637-9800    fax: 202-637-0968
> mclark at cdt.org         http://www.cdt.org/
> PGP Key available on keyservers
> 
> Join our Activist Network! Your participation can make a difference!
> http://www.cdt.org/join/




From drt at un.bewaff.net  Thu Oct 11 06:26:27 2001
From: drt at un.bewaff.net (Doobee R. Tzeck)
Date: 11 Oct 2001 15:26:27 +0200
Subject: Talking to the Press Considered Harmful
In-Reply-To: Declan McCullagh's message of "Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:16:12 -0400"
References: <20011010001203.A6096@cluebot.com>
	<7F6D52E4-BD36-11D5-8912-0050E439C473@got.net>
	<878zeimr44.fsf@c0re.rc23.cx> <20011011091612.A6393@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <87het6jojg.fsf@c0re.rc23.cx>


Declan McCullagh  writes:

> On Thu, Oct 11, 2001 at 12:02:35PM +0200, Doobee R. Tzeck wrote:
> > supprise me because journalists are information dealers trying to
> > get maximum value from minimum effort. Since "trouth" doesn't
> > really attribute to value of an information they sell, why should

> Obviously you don't understand the media biz. If you really were
> doing PR for CCC, they had a pretty poor excuse for a flack.

Sure, thats why I and others at koeln.ccc.de started just telling
journalists to go away, it works fine for us and saves a lot of
time. Andy Mueller Maguhn can play the Media Bizz game with far
better success, but success for whom?

But I still would be very glad if you as a person probably
understanding the media biz can give a hint what is so
fundamentally wrong about the assumptions in above paragraph.

thanks

drt

-- 
teenage mutant ninja hero coders from da c0re - http://c0re.jp/
me                                  - http://koeln.ccc.de/~drt/




From mattd at useoz.com  Wed Oct 10 22:32:42 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 15:32:42 +1000
Subject: google and the net
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011011152203.00a7fa60@pop.useoz.com>


missing usenet threads inc...(Im trying to do some twisted backups)

CIA Afghan War; Directorate of Ops; and, Wen Ho Lee
-- 
soc.culture.pakistan.politics - 22 Jan 2000 by Ralph McGehee - View Thread 
(1 article)
CIA's Afghan War, Ops Directorate; And, Wen Ho Lee
-- 
soc.culture.pakistan.politics - 22 Jan 2000 by Ralph McGehee - View Thread 
(1 article)
CIA's Afghan War; Ops Directorate; and, Wen Ho Lee
-- 
alt.conspiracy - 22 Jan 2000 by Ralph McGehee - View Thread (1 article)
CIA's Afghan War, Ops Directorate; and, Wen Ho Lee
-- 
alt.politics.org.cia - 22 Jan 2000 by Ralph McGehee - View Thread (1 article)
Drugs and Terrorism
many more by ralph inc. some more on 'ghan. Im mainly after the afghan 
stuff,please? TIA.




From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Thu Oct 11 15:38:15 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 15:38:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Giuliani Takes $10 Million From WTC Victims to Ass-Kiss Israel
Message-ID: <200110112238.f9BMcFI19117@artifact.psychedelic.net>


Rudy snatches a $10 million donation away from the windowed, orphaned,
maimed, and crippled WTC victims, because the donor dared to criticize the
Oh-So-Most-Holy-State of Israel, and Amerikan foreign policy.

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/nm/20011011/ts/attack_donation_dc_1.html

-----

NEW YORK (Reuters) - New York Mayor Rudolph Giuliani on Thursday rejected
a Saudi prince's $10 million donation for victims of the World Trade
Center after the prince criticized U.S. policy in the Middle East.
   
Prince Alwaleed bin Talal toured the site of the Sept. 11 destruction with
the mayor, offered to donate $10 million and said, ``The government of the
United States of America should re-examine its policies in the Middle East
and adopt a more balanced stance toward the Palestinian cause.''

...

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From irene25 at 163.net  Thu Oct 11 15:47:53 2001
From: irene25 at 163.net (irene25 at 163.net)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 15:47:53
Subject: ũûеѹáϴĭûѹ
Message-ID: <200110110751.AAA05091@toad.com>


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�����ʼ��� csj-wuli at pub.sz.jsinfo.net 
�绰�� 86-512-6610188 6618066 
���棺 86-512-5360646 




From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Thu Oct 11 15:50:49 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 15:50:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: FBI: More Attacks Soon
In-Reply-To: <20011011180948.A9479@cluebot.com> from "Declan McCullagh"
  at Oct 11, 2001 06:09:48 PM
Message-ID: <200110112250.f9BMon519156@artifact.psychedelic.net>


Declan writes:

> Here's the explanation:
> http://www.wired.com/news/conflict/0,2100,47510,00.html

We should all remember that Chicken Little's belief that the sky was
falling was a delusion having as its origin an acorn falling on Chicken
Little's head.

Do you think Mueller looks more like Cockey-Lockey or Ducky-Lucky?

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From fogstorm at mac.com  Thu Oct 11 15:58:55 2001
From: fogstorm at mac.com (FogStorm)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 15:58:55 -0700
Subject: FBI: More Attacks Soon
In-Reply-To: <20011011180948.A9479@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <200110112258.f9BMwr125370@smtp-out.mac.com>


On Thursday, October 11, 2001, at 03:09  PM, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Here's the explanation:
> http://www.wired.com/news/conflict/0,2100,47510,00.html
>
> -Declan
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 11, 2001 at 04:51:17PM -0400, dmolnar wrote:
>> On Thu, 11 Oct 2001, FogStorm wrote:
>>
>>> http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel01/skyfall.htm
>> 					 ^^^^^^^^^^^
>> Is this someone's idea of a joke?
>>
>> -David

Here's the new URL: http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel01/101101.htm

Maybe "skyfall" in an internal code-name of an investigation/operation.




From dbob at semtex.com  Thu Oct 11 16:10:04 2001
From: dbob at semtex.com (Dynamite Bob)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 16:10:04 -0700
Subject: Jesus saves but Osama pays interest
Message-ID: <3BC626CC.B5BC7A2F@semtex.com>


>Could it be that this is really the Millenium,
>the Second Coming is here and now, and we are just on the 
>wrong side?

I thought the appearance of a tornado in Maryland (killing two)
shortly after the WTC/pentagon[1] fireworks was telling.  With the
background 
of gay plagues and the anoxia in the Gulf of Mexico... and the 
programmers calling "let my people go" about Dimitry... and darkness
falling over california...

But Jah could still be on our side.  He cleaned up the dotcom arrogance
for us...
though he left Larry Ellison alive.. perhaps to test us.


[1] Hey aren't wiccans into fivefold rotational symmetry??

Notcensoredyet:
http://www3.cnn.com/video/world/2001/10/07/vonat.bin.laden.affl.med.ram




From dbob at semtex.com  Thu Oct 11 16:16:23 2001
From: dbob at semtex.com (Dynamite Bob)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 16:16:23 -0700
Subject: American IRA website terrorized by FBI, closed on threats
Message-ID: <3BC62847.95F8053E@semtex.com>


(Its started, gentlemen.  This is Bush gratifying Blair now, using
the Bill of Rights -now useless- to mop up the wetness.)


http://www.guardian.co.uk/internetnews/story/0,7369,567864,00.html

Staff and agencies
Thursday October 11, 2001 

An American web site accused of
supporting the Real IRA has been
shut down at the request of the FBI
as it cracks down on terrorist
groups, it emerged today.


The New York-based web site -
iraradio.com - contained an archive
of weekly radio programmes said
to back the dissident republicans.

                                                 Travis Towle, the
owner, today
                                                 claimed that the FBI
asked his
                                                 internet service
provider to stop
                                                 giving web space to the
site or face
                                                 having its assets
seized as a
                                                 backer of terrorism. 

                                                 "They just yanked us,"
Mr Towle
                                                 told the New York Daily
News.

                                                 "I think what is going
on is being
                                                 done out of fear."

                                                 John McDonagh, a native
of
                                                 Queens, New York, said
that his
                                                 show - broadcast every
Saturday
                                                 afternoon - would go
on. He
                                                 claimed IRA stood for
Irish
                                                 Republican Activist and
denied he
                                                 had any connection to
the Real IRA.

                                                 "If I was running a
Taliban web site
                                                 15 years ago, I would
be
                                                 considered a patriot
helping the
                                                 American cause," he
added

                                                 "Today, I would be
considered a
                                                 traitor. It is getting
to be difficult to
                                                 predict who the
government is
                                                 going to call a
terrorist."

                                                 Despite Mr McDonagh's
claim that
                                                 he would go on
broadcasting, a
                                                 statement on the web
site said Mr
                                                 Towle's Cosmic
Entertainment
                                                 Group had shut it down.

                                                 "In light of the
foregoing and the
                                                 recent tragic events in
the United
                                                 States, the Cosmic
Entertainment
                                                 company board of
advisers has
                                                 deemed it advisable and
in the
                                                 best interests of the
company to
                                                 temporarily shut down
the
                                                 iraradio.com web site
until the
                                                 turbulence and
uncertainty facing
                                                 our nation has
decreased."

                                                 The FBI refused to
comment on the
                                                 shut down for security
reasons.

                                                 The Real IRA is banned
from
                                                 raising funds in
America and
                                                 anyone found giving
them cash can
                                                 be prosecuted and
jailed. 

                                                 It is one of a series
of
                                                 organisations
designated as a
                                                 terror group, on a list
that also
                                                 includes Osama bin
Laden's
                                                 al-Qaida network and
Hezbollah.




From dbob at semtex.com  Thu Oct 11 16:21:48 2001
From: dbob at semtex.com (Dynamite Bob)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 16:21:48 -0700
Subject: skyfall, sheepdip, fanshit
Message-ID: <3BC6298C.137DC12@semtex.com>


Declan writes in "http://wired.com/news/conflict/0,2100,47510,00.html"

"Just what did the FBI mean by inserting the word "skyfall" into a
description of a press release? Was it a reference to the 1970s-era
disaster novel entitled Skyfall, or a hint that the bureau was
remembering the children's tale in which Chicken Little warned of
calamity -- but was not believed? "


It could also be a code word they inserted to as a clandestine
communication.  You know, WWII "if you're really with the Brits, 
have the BBC newlady say 'foosball' on tonight's show"

Anyway, 'skyfall' will be replaced with 'sheepdip' soon...




From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Thu Oct 11 07:40:54 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 16:40:54 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: [BIOWAR]  Al Qaida biological warfare factories attacked (fwd)
Message-ID: 




-- Eugen* Leitl leitl
______________________________________________________________
ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204
57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:07:47 -0400
From: ds2000 
To: Biowar 
Subject: [BIOWAR]  Al Qaida biological warfare factories attacked

>From Ha'aretz,
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=81505&contrassID=1&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=0
-
Last update - 15:00 10/10/2001

Al Qaida biological warfare factories attacked

By Ze'ev Schiff, Ha'aretz Defense Commentator

Among the bases attacked in the U.S.-led strikes in Afghanistan was an
Osama bin Laden camp which served as a production facility for
poisonous chemicals, including biological warfare agents.

The present strategic situation is one of the reasons that Washington
is being extremely careful in disclosing the targets that American and
British planes hit in Afghanistan over the past three days.
Information on the targets has not been readily supplied, not even to
fellow members of the international anti-terror coalition.

According to information provided by Western sources, it seems that
U.S. intelligence holds "detailed information on the location of bin
Laden's Al Qaida organization camps." The U.S. and British air strike
targeted instructional and training bases near the cities of Jalalabad
and Khut, located close to the Afghanistan-Pakistan border.

Apparently, one of the bin Laden bases attacked, which was both small
and secret, manufactured various poisons, including biological warfare
agents. Professional bases as well as Al Qaida manufacturing centers,
including intelligence instructional bases near Kandahar and Kabul
have also been hit. According to Western claims, Al Qaida members were
trained to carry out attacks and hijackings at these bases.

Another base attacked in the region was a chief manufacturer of
explosive materials.

According to this information it seems that the American and other
intelligence services knew about Al Qaida's involvement in the
chemical and biological warfare realm prior to the strikes.

--
Dan S

Post to: biowar at topica.com. Unsubscribe to: biowar-unsubscribe at topica.com. List info: www.topica.com/lists/biowar

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From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu  Thu Oct 11 13:51:17 2001
From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 16:51:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: FBI: More Attacks Soon
In-Reply-To: <200110112021.f9BKLNH04289@smtp-out.mac.com>
Message-ID: 


On Thu, 11 Oct 2001, FogStorm wrote:

> http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel01/skyfall.htm
					 ^^^^^^^^^^^
Is this someone's idea of a joke?

-David




From mikecabot at fastcircle.com  Thu Oct 11 13:52:18 2001
From: mikecabot at fastcircle.com (mikecabot at fastcircle.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 16:52:18 -0400
Subject: Absolute anonymity breeds absolute irresponsibility?
Message-ID: <200110112054.PAA25922@einstein.ssz.com>


Quote:

"Absolute anonymity breeds absolute irresponsibility," [SUN CEO Scott 
Mcnealy] said. "We need a thumbprint Java card in the hand of 
everybody in the country." 

Unquote.

Yeech.

Here's the text and URL of the whole Reuters story:

Sun's McNealy touts Java-based ID system 
By Reuters 
October 11, 2001, 12:05 p.m. PT 
 

McNealy defends Liberty Alliance project
Scott McNealy, CEO, Sun Microsystems  
ORLANDO, Fla.--Scott McNealy, chairman and CEO of Sun Microsystems, 
said Thursday his long-held belief the United States needs a national 
identity system has gained a lot of traction since the Sept. 11 
attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.

"This is more than a sea change," McNealy said to reporters at an 
industry conference in Orlando, Fla. "I have not spoken to one person 
who hasn't flipped a switch to say, 'You're darn right, I want to 
know who's getting on a plane with me.'" 

Sun developed the Java programming language, which someday could 
provide the language needed for a smart-card identification system to 
deal with computers at airports, shopping malls, research facilities 
and other locations where McNealy said anonymity could prove 
dangerous.  

"Absolute anonymity breeds absolute irresponsibility," he said. "We 
need a thumbprint Java card in the hand of everybody in the country." 

Civil libertarians have heaped scorn on McNealy, but he dismissed 
their concerns. 

"I'm tired of the outrage. If you get on a plane, I want to know who 
you are. If you rent a crop duster, I want to know who you are," he 
said. 

McNealy said it would be the job of Congress to decide when people 
can be anonymous and when they cannot. He warned that the United 
States faces "a huge efficiency tax" for security if it does not 
adopt a simple system of identification. 

"Hiring 50 humans isn't going to solve that problem," he said. 

McNealy appeared at a symposium sponsored by Gartner, the high-tech 
consulting company. McNealy also responded to remarks made at the 
conference the previous day by Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer. 

Ballmer said Sun's Liberty Alliance project, an identity 
authentication and authorization service meant to speed online 
transactions, "has absolutely no probability of mattering to the 
world." 

Microsoft will compete with a similar service called Passport. 
Microsoft will go it alone on its service, while Sun is working with 
dozens of companies from eBay to General Motors. 

McNealy said the number of partners could grow into the thousands. He 
said the strength of his system was that each partner would maintain 
its own customer list and could arrange data sharing with one another 
on their own terms. 

"Hertz and United Airlines can work out their own deal instead of 
going to Microsoft and saying, 'How much do we have to pay you?'" 
McNealy said. 

Microsoft believes its customer base of 120 million will make it 
dominant in the field. Sun is betting the flexibility of its system 
will make it more appealing to merchants. 

Story Copyright � 2001 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved. 

URL:

http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-7491959.html?tag=mn_hd
_______________________________________________________________________________
WANT YOUR OWN FREE AND SECURE WEB EMAIL ADDRESS?

Visit http://www.fastcircle.com 







From dbob at semtex.com  Thu Oct 11 17:04:05 2001
From: dbob at semtex.com (Dynamite Bob)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 17:04:05 -0700
Subject: American IRA website terrorized by FBI, closed on threats
Message-ID: <20011011170405.A30291@navel.introspect>


[Reformatted for legibility.  Please ensure that materials posted are
readable.  KMSelf]

(Its started, gentlemen.  This is Bush gratifying Blair now, using
the Bill of Rights -now useless- to mop up the wetness.)


http://www.guardian.co.uk/internetnews/story/0,7369,567864,00.html

    Staff and agencies
    Thursday October 11, 2001 

    An American web site accused of supporting the Real IRA has been
    shut down at the request of the FBI as it cracks down on terrorist
    groups, it emerged today.


    The New York-based web site - iraradio.com - contained an archive of
    weekly radio programmes said to back the dissident republicans.

    Travis Towle, the owner, today claimed that the FBI asked his
    internet service provider to stop giving web space to the site or
    face having its assets seized as a backer of terrorism. 

    "They just yanked us," Mr Towle told the New York Daily News.

    "I think what is going on is being done out of fear."

    John McDonagh, a native of Queens, New York, said that his show -
    broadcast every Saturday afternoon - would go on. He claimed IRA
    stood for Irish Republican Activist and denied he had any connection
    to the Real IRA.

    "If I was running a Taliban web site 15 years ago, I would be
    considered a patriot helping the American cause," he added

    "Today, I would be considered a traitor. It is getting to be
    difficult to predict who the government is going to call a
    terrorist."

    Despite Mr McDonagh's claim that he would go on broadcasting, a
    statement on the web site said Mr Towle's Cosmic Entertainment Group
    had shut it down.

    "In light of the foregoing and the recent tragic events in the
    United States, the Cosmic Entertainment company board of advisers
    has deemed it advisable and in the best interests of the company to
    temporarily shut down the iraradio.com web site until the turbulence
    and uncertainty facing our nation has decreased."

    The FBI refused to comment on the shut down for security reasons.

    The Real IRA is banned from raising funds in America and anyone
    found giving them cash can be prosecuted and jailed. 

    It is one of a series of organisations designated as a terror group,
    on a list that also includes Osama bin Laden's al-Qaida network and
    Hezbollah.




From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Thu Oct 11 08:27:18 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 17:27:18 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: FY;) [w00f] Arabian Psycho 
Message-ID: 


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 13:03:49 -0600
From: Ben Reed 
Reply-To: w00f at rye.org
To: Kathy Anderson , w00f at rye.org
Subject: [w00f] Arabian Psycho

A Beachside Cafe in Opa-Locka
"You should match your ghitra to your kandura," Waleed Alsheri tells
Abdulaziz Alomari, who's listening intently, stirring his yogurt on the
rocks with a swizzle stick.
"Who says?" Abdulaziz asks.
"Now, listen," Alsheri patiently explains. He's drinking a glass of apricot
nectar and eating rice wrapped in grape leaves with goat sausage and,
incongruously, French fries. "If you wear a white ghitra, you wear a white
kandura. It's as simple as that."
"But wait," I interrupt. "What if his bischt is black?"
"For God's sake, Ali-Hamoud," Alsheri moans. "I wasn't talking about
dressing for a fucking wedding. What's wrong with you?"
"The bischt isn't only for formal occasions anymore," I shoot back. "Sure,
the older, thicker bischts, the ones made of heavy wool or cotton material,
are used exclusively for ceremonial occasions. But the lighter version, the
semi-see-thru bischt made of thin linen, is often worn now as an everyday
alternative to formal business wear. As professional attire, it has a
playful but regal quality, but it is also the garment of a good Muslim."
Alomari nods as though he's taking this in, but I know that he knows this
already, and it irritates me that he's pretending. "Okay," he says. "I get
it. But what about the color? Fine, black, beige, and brown, but what about
the gold trim? Isn't the use of gold trim restricted anyway depending on the
social status of the wearer?"
"Fuck you, Abdul," I hiss. "You know as well as I do that it's the material,
not the color, that signifies social status. Is that your Taurus
double-parked out there?"
He peers under the table canopy toward the street, seeming crestfallen all
of the sudden. A pair of ripped jogger-faggots wearing sweat-drenched
Florida State t-shirts trots by. "No," he whispers, shaking his head sadly.
"No, that's not mine. I don't have a Taurus."
The three of us, Abdulaziz Alomari, Waleed Alsheri, and I are sitting at
Easy Earl's beachside cafe in Opa-Locka, and it's a little after four.
Alsheri is wearing a beige ankle-length dishdara with flared bushti and red
micro-piping, a matching gahfiyya and gold-encrusted agal made of
tightly-wrapped spider silk, all by Fahad, and black Mecca sandals with
camelskin toe-straps that I mistakenly think at first are Nila Rafiq but
which are actually, Alsheri tells me later, handmade. Alomari is wearing an
understated sleeveless Elham Abbas kandura, a red-and-white patterned El
Mouf ghtira, and a pair of tan Armani poplin shorts to help fight of the hot
Florida weather (we're allowed to wear shorts with a kandura). Our table is
on a raised oak deck overlooking the ocean. I'm wearing a Joseph Abboud
solid red silk dishdara that comes with a matching exercise bag and, like
Alomari, a red-and-white patterned ghtira-gahfiyya arrangement, although
mine is Elham Abbas and much more expensive. Alomari and Alsheri finished
their flight classes early for facials somewhere and their tans look good.
The O'Reilly Report today was about the expansion of NATO to include the
Baltic states.
"Guys, guys," I say. "Who's sitting with Karim Koubriti over there? Is that
Ahmed Hannan?"
"Negative," Alsheri grunts. "That's Nabil Al-Marabh. You can tell by the
crop-duster glasses."
There's a short but uncomfortable silence at the table. "No," says Alomari
quietly. "That's not Al-Marabh."
"Are you sure?" I ask.
He nods, and you can see it all of the sudden: he's never been more sure of
anything in his life. "It's not Al-Marabh," he says. "It's... Atta."
The infidel hardbody waitress, definitely an FSU cheerleader type (or maybe
Georgia Tech), blond, huge tits, snake-pattern tattoo encircling the left
bicep, sleeveless cutoff T-shirt, denim jeans, friendly face, comes over to
ask if we want a new drink. We've been coming here every day for four weeks
and she's always asking us questions, trying to make conversation and get to
know us. "Where y'all fellas from?" she asked Koumbari and me yesterday.
"Howdaya like Opa-Locka?" "Opa-what?" I answered. "Opa-Locka," she said.
"Our town." "I know it's the fucking town," I growled, and after that she
didn't ask us any more questions. Now she's trying to smile but is
definitely keeping her distance as she steps around Alsheri's dishdara to
pick up his plate.
"They make them healthy here, that's for sure," Alsheri says, leering, as
she walks away.
"Just once, God," Alomari says, mock-bowing toward Mecca. "Just once. After
that, you can do what you want with me."
"Yeah," snorts Alsheri. "He can do what he wants with you. Just wait."
I'm not sure how Alomari knows Atta so well-maybe through the Germans?-and
it slightly pisses me off but I decide to even up the score a little bit by
showing everyone my new box cutter. I pull it out of my exercise bag
(Ahmed's, $39) and slap it on the table, waiting for reactions.
"What's that, a lighter?" Alsheri asks, not apathetically.
"New box cutter," I say, trying to act casual about it, but I'm smiling
proudly. "Opinions?"
"Whoa," Alomari says, lifting it up, snapping the blade in and out of its
stainless steel sheath, turning it until it glints in the sunlight. "That is
nice, Ali-Hamoud. Take a look." He hands it to Alsheri.
"Picked it up at Staples yesterday," I say. "Jiffi Safe Cutter, 2 and 3/4",
Left hand model, custom-shined. Ninety-seven dollars for a pack of six."
"Good coloring," Alsheri says, studying it closely.
"That's Siberian steel," I point out. "Something called Omsk Blue."
"Omsk blue?" Alsheri asks.
"Really stands out, doesn't it?"
"Yeah," Alsheri says guardedly, the jealous bastard, "it is cool,
Ali-Hamoud. I'm sure the fucking metal detectors will like it, too."
Alomari doubles over. "Oh, shit," he says, wheezing with laughter. "Oh,
shit!"
Alsheri just sits there, grinning smugly, pulls something out of his bag and
slaps it down on the table, next to the napkin dispenser. "What you really
need," he says, "is something like this." He turns to me. "What do you
think?"
"Nice," I croak, but under the table my hand is involuntarily gathering into
a fist.
"Good God," Alomari says, picking it up. "Is that a three-color plastic
design?"
"Four," Alsheri says.
I snatch it away from Alomari, who's smaller than me and, I think, worried
that I might secretly be on the liquidation team. He relinquishes it
instantly. "Where's the fourth?" I say, not looking up. "I only see three."
"Modern Specialties, Inc.," Alsheri says. "Kutto Master Carton Cutter. Model
#20. Right-hander. The shell is three-color plastic, but get this: the blade
is plastic, too. Well, the outside of it, anyway."
"An alloy?" Alomari says, admiringly.
Alsheri shakes his head. "Not only," he said. "The body is a plastic alloy.
But there's a hardened polymer coating. Totally undetectable."
Even I have to admit it's magnificent.
Suddenly the cafe seems far away, the wind dies, even the sound of the waves
diminishes, everything a meaningless hum, next to this box-cutter, as I hear
Alomari reading the sans serif inscription on the shell: "Al-Qaida, Laden,
Inc..."
"Holy shit," Alomari says. "I've never seen anything like-"
Atta stops by our table on his way out. He's wearing sunglasses by Persol
and he's carrying a briefcase by Coach Leatherware.
"Allah Akhbar," he says. "What have we got here, box cutters?" He lowers his
sunglasses just to make sure, picking up Alsheri's, not even looking at
mine. "Modern Specialties, Inc. I recognize it. The Kutto Master. Not
bad-but look at this."
He opens up his briefcase and takes out a large plastic shopping bag and
turns it upside down, emptying the contents-a good two dozen completely
translucent box cutters-onto the table. One spills off the edge, bounces off
the deck, and lands in the sand. A fat infidel who's been sitting at the
next table with his fat infidel wife and their two children with
jelly-stained faces reaches down to pick it up, just being friendly. Atta
slaps at his arm.
"Hands off, devil," he hisses.
"I'm just trying to help-" the infidel begins.
"Help yourself first," Atta snaps. "Lose some goddamn weight."
"And stay away from New York," Alsheri says.
"Shut up, you fool," Atta snaps.
The infidel crawls back to his seat. Catching his breath-he was shaken by
this totally unnecessary interruption-Atta picks up one of the cutters on
the table, flicks open the blade, and holds it, demonstratively, to
Alomari's throat.
"Griptite, USA-made, three-inch, Right-hand models all," he says. "These are
custom-built diamond box cutters. Razor sharp, saws through iron.
Individually, they cost $960 apiece, but I got a volume discount-96 for
$80,000. And the guy who made them is already dead."
"Is this the Cedar Rapids factory?" asks Alomari, the ass-kisser.
Atta turns to him and frowns contemptuously, which pleases me. "Cedar
Rapids? Griptite's Cedar Rapids location is closed. These are from Butte."
"Opened three months ago," sighs a defeated Alsheri.
Atta turns to me. "What do you think, Ali-Hamoud?"
"Nice," I say. "Very nice."
Flight School
I'm on the verge of tears by the time we reach SimCenter because I'm
positive we won't get any time on the simulator, but there's practically no
line when we get there, and relief that is almost revelatory in scope washes
over me in an awesome spiritual wave. The instructor is a serious infidel
hardbody, not quite blond, huge tits, good ass, blue instructor's suit by
Karl Lagerfeld, silk gazar blouse, gold sling-back pumps. I'm positive
Alsheri has fucked her. It's near impossible to get screen time at SimCenter
on short notice and I think the rest of us-besides Waleed, I'm with Alomari
and Ahmed Hannan-are a little jealous of Alsheri's prowess in securing
reservations. When we piled into the 1989 Pontiac Grand Prix in Palm Beach
we realized we had no simulator time booked and while we debated the merits
of a new program at Huffman aviation-my panic so great I nearly slit my
wrists with one of Atta's diamond boxcutters-a consensus seemed to emerge.
Alsheri had the only dissenting voice but he finally shrugged and said, "I
don't give a shit," and dialed up SimCenter on a secure satellite phone as
we rolled out onto the highway.
"Okay, pop TQ quiz," Hannan says. "On what days can you trim your beard in
Kabul?"
"You can never trim your beard in Kabul," I say, annoyed.
"You can do it in private," Alomari says haughtily. "When no one is looking.
If you do it less than once every two months, no one notices."
"Oh, really?" I say. "And where do you plan on doing it, Alomari? In the
bathroom? Where your wife might come in? Not fucking likely."
"Come on, Ali-Hamoud," Hannan says, flicking on his left turn blinker and
glancing over his shoulder. "You've got to remember you're dealing with true
Islam in Kabul. No wife would dare raise her hand to point a finger at a
husband, for God's sake. They'd fucking put her to death just for that. And
you can go back to trimming your beard. There's another one of those new
Volkswagen bugs."
"The old ones were better," Alsheri says absently. "They were cheaper." He's
been in a bad mood about something since before the call to SimCenter.
"Hannan," I say sharply. "Whether or not you can get away with trimming your
beard in front of your wife... that's not the point. A Muslim's job is to
provide an example for his family. And besides..."
"Here we go again..." Hannan groans. "You're a goddamn cleric, you know
that, Ali-Hamoud?"
"And besides," I continue, "you're forgetting the main problem, which is
that the main issue with trimming your beard is that fucking God sees it. It
is written: 'Conduct yourself with justice and bear true witness before God,
even though it be against yourselves, your parents, your... your..."
"Your what, Ali-Hamoud?" Hannan snaps. "Your what?"
"Your hairy ass?" Alsheri says, brightening suddenly.
"Ali-Hamoud's ass isn't hairy," Alomari says. "I've seen it. He bent over to
pick up a penny last week and his kandera fell down. Caused some infidel
faggot to wreck his car on Dale Mabry highway."
Alsheri gives him a high five. Even Hannan laughs.
"Your kinsfolk," I interrupt. "Even though it be against your kinsfolk.
What's wrong with you people? Aren't you even Muslims?"
"Ali-Hamoud, you are some kind of morose bastard," Hannan says. "You should
cut down on the goddamn nectar."
When we get to the waiting room at SimCenter Alsheri and Hannan disappear
suddenly and I know right away what's going on. Five minutes later Alsheri
returns more pissed off than ever. "This place sucks," he says. "You can't
even get your prayer mat down in the bathroom stalls."
"Why don't you go outside like everyone else?" I say, pointing at a
bucktoothed infidel in a tie, short-sleeved white Arrow shirt and baseball
hat who is sitting across the room. "Ricky here isn't afraid to pray in the
parking lot. Are you, Ricky?"
"It's Billy," the infidel says meekly.
Alsheri scrunches his nose in disgust, as though smelling rotted cheese.
"Who cares what your fucking name is?" he shouts. "There's ESPN in the other
room if you don't like it. Infidel."
"I... I do pray in the parking lot," Billy says. He looks too old for
college but too dumb for adulthood.
"You see, Waleed?" I say. "He does pray in the parking lot."
"Bullshit," Alsheri says. "No one prays in a parking lot. Not even an
infidel."
"Why shouldn't he?" I say. "He's accepted Jesus Christ as his personal
savior. Haven't you, Billy?"
"I have," Billy says. "Yes, sir, I found the Lord. He helped me through a
trane-sishunul peer-yud."
"Yeah?" Alsheri snorts. "What 'tranesishunl peer-yud was that?"
"Ah was incarcerated," Billy says. "I had sinned against the Lord. Which is
the same as sinning against myself."
This kid is a real winner.
"What were you in for, Billy?" I say, in a comforting voice.
The infidel leans forward and swallows so hard his tie leaps forward. "I had
exposed myself to a person of under-a person of younger-to a minor."
"Well, that's brave of you to admit that, Billy," I say. "Now do you mind
telling us: what the fuck are you doing in Boeing flight school?"
"Is that what this is?" he says. "I had no idea. I'm just here for a
janitor's job. They told me this was an airport."
"It's an airport," Hannan groans, "and a flight school. Mother of God." He
slaps his forehead.
"How do these people feed themselves?" Alomari whispers to me.
"They put them out in fields," I say sagely, "to graze."
"Okay," Alsheri says, getting up and walking toward the door, his
gold-embossed Fahad sandals clacking against the tile. "That's it. I'm
leaving. There has to be some place in this fucking town to pray. You idiots
can do what you like."
"Good riddance," Hannan says. "Now there's less competition for the
instructor."
"She's too old to fuck anyway," Alsheri says, walking out the door.
A Glimpse of a Tuesday Morning
And it's early morning and I find myself standing in line at the check-in at
Logan airport behind three infidels in suits, they don't know what's coming,
and I'm sweaty and a pounding migraine thumps dully in my head and I'm
experiencing a major-league anxiety attack, searching my pockets for Valium,
Xanax, an apricot pit, and all I find are three sesame seeds in a Fari
Narwaq pillbox, so I pop all three in my mouth and swallow it with a
chocolate Yoo-Hoo and I couldn't tell you where it came from if my life
depended on it. I've forgotten who I'm on this run with and, more
importantly, where I'm supposed to be sitting. Is it next to Atta, who's
standing far ahead of me in line and glaring at me (even though he's not
actually looking at me or turning around at all, I can tell, just by looking
at the back of his head, that he's glaring at me all the same), trying to
convince me to calm down? Or is it next to Alsheri? Is Alsheri even on this
flight? There's someone about 10 feet behind me who looks like Alsheri, but
couldn't that also be Al Shehhi? Not that I haven't spent a lot of time with
Alsheri, I have, I've seen him almost every day, he's the only interesting
person I know, but I still can't even distinguish this person, objectively
important in my life, from a stranger. Did I have the yogurt kebabs last
night for dinner, or was it moussaka? "Oh, God in heaven, I can't remember."
But soon we're on the plane and everything is clear: Atta is bounding into
the cockpit, diamond boxcutter in hand, and Alsheri/Al-Shehhi is pouncing on
the two hardbody infidel stewardesses in the front of the cabin, and
suddenlly the plane lurches sharply downward and to the left, screams
everywhere, total pandemonium, but then magically my composure is regained,
this is all automatic now, I've been through this a thousand times before,
and mechanically I stagger forward toward the cockpit as the plane rights
itself and quickly I assume the seat of the (already deceased) navigator and
shut off the radar tracking devices before shouting into the radio, "I am a
personal acquaintance of Assad's second cousin. Do you hear me? I know him
personally." The infidel voice on the other end of the line, confused: "UA
11, repeat transmission, over, didn't catch that, over." "My kandera never
fell off in Tampa. I never picked up that penny!" "Shut the fuck up, you
moron!" Atta is screaming, I can only see the back of his head, his ears are
highlighted against the sun shining in from the cockpit window, clouds are
rushing past us, and I look down and I'm holding the microphone in my hand
weakly, like it's something limp and soggy, but I'm still whispering to
somebody "ghirta ghirta ghirta" then the clouds parted and the skyline
appeared


Benjamin W. Reed
Deputy Public Defender
2708 1st Ave. N., Ste. 400
Billings, MT  59101
       (406) 256-6861
fax: (406) 256-6899

Please treat this e-mail as confidential.

_______________________________________________
w00f mailing list
w00f at rye.org
http://www.rye.org/mailman/listinfo/w00f





From coco at smash.tv  Thu Oct 11 17:47:03 2001
From: coco at smash.tv (Coco Conn)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 17:47:03 -0700
Subject: comebackalive.com
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 


check out this site first before you plan your next vacation.
Looks like a companion site to P.J.O'Rourke's 'Holidays in Hell'

http://www.comebackalive.com/df/dplaces/afghanis/dplaces.htm




From declan at well.com  Thu Oct 11 14:54:38 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 17:54:38 -0400
Subject: Tracking the RIAA Source
In-Reply-To: <200110111514.LAA18038@smtp6.mindspring.com>; from
  jya@pipeline.com on Thu, Oct 11, 2001 at 11:08:26AM -0700
References: <200110111514.LAA18038@smtp6.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20011011175436.A8696@cluebot.com>


On Thu, Oct 11, 2001 at 11:08:26AM -0700, John Young wrote:
> Declan has jumped the gun on assigning blame here, apparently
> doing little more checking than Tony Smith. But hell that

Naturally this is incorrect. I had all day yesterday to check with
folks who were supposedly there, and I've satisfied myself that the
"meeting" was a fiction.

Face it, John: You and Cryptome got suckered. Now everyone knows all
they have to do to post some document on your site is to come up with
a reasonably plausible forgery sent from a hotmail.com address or the
equivalent. Maybe some Feds will send you "leaked cypherpunk grand
jury investigation" documents that the fine friendly folks in Seattle
wrote over drinks and giggles last evening.

Now, I'm not really faulting you, since you never claimed that the
document was real, as the Register did. In fact, Cryptome's policy, as
I understand it, has not been to vouch for the authenticity of
information. Post what you get, we love it, it's a wonderful
experience in online bottom feeding, a tour of the muck and mud,
and an unprecedented lure for Feds, journalists, and cypherpunks alike.

But, my friend, if what you post turns out to be a malicious forgery,
don't get huffy about it.

-Declan




From declan at well.com  Thu Oct 11 15:09:48 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 18:09:48 -0400
Subject: FBI: More Attacks Soon
In-Reply-To: ;
  from dmolnar@hcs.harvard.edu on Thu, Oct 11, 2001 at 04:51:17PM -0400
References: <200110112021.f9BKLNH04289@smtp-out.mac.com>
  
Message-ID: <20011011180948.A9479@cluebot.com>


Here's the explanation:
http://www.wired.com/news/conflict/0,2100,47510,00.html

-Declan


On Thu, Oct 11, 2001 at 04:51:17PM -0400, dmolnar wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Oct 2001, FogStorm wrote:
> 
> > http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel01/skyfall.htm
> 					 ^^^^^^^^^^^
> Is this someone's idea of a joke?
> 
> -David




From d1tb at yahoo.com  Thu Oct 11 18:10:58 2001
From: d1tb at yahoo.com (D B)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 18:10:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Malls On Halloween
Message-ID: <20011012011058.51008.qmail@web10205.mail.yahoo.com>


Hi all.

Long time listener, 2nd time poster.

My wife received this, and some of you on this list
seem to be very talented at chasing down hoaxes. I am
not so. 

For some reason, the formatting looks out of place in
parts. Anyway, this is how she received it, but I have
omitted all of the people it has been sent to. Other
than that, it's verbatim. I haven't called the number
yet as I just got it, and I assume it's the lady's
work number.

Dan

>From: "Bogdan, Amy" 
>Subject: FW: malls on Halloween
>Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:19:39 -0600
>
>
>
> > QUOTE:
> > Hi All -
> >
> > I think you all know that I don't send out hoaxes
and don't do the
>reactionary thing and send out anything that crosses
my path. This one,
>however, is a friend of a friend and I've given it
enough credibility in my
>
>mind that I'm writing it up and sending it out to all
of you. My friend's
>friend was dating a guy from Afghanistan up until a
month ago. She had a
>date with him around 9/6 and was stood up. She was
understandably upset and
>
>went to his home to find it completely emptied. On
9/10, she received a
>letter from her boyfriend explaining that he wished
he could tell her why
>he
>had left and that he was sorry it had to be like
that. The part worth
>mentioning is that he BEGGED her not to get on any
commercial airlines on
>9/11 and to not to go any malls on Halloween. As soon
as everything
>happened
>on the 11th, she called the FBI and has since turned
over the letter. This
>is not an email that I've received and decided to
pass on. This came from a
>
>phone conversation with a long-time friend of mine
last night. I may be
>wrong, and I hope I am. However, with one of his
warnings being correct and
>
>devastating, I'm not willing to take the chance on
the second and wanted to
>
>make sure that people I cared about had the same
information that I did.
> >
> > Laura Katsis
> > Implementation Specialist
> > 714/921-5424
> > lkatsis at volt.com
> > OpsVolt_Track at volt.com
Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
http://personals.yahoo.com




From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Oct 11 16:14:40 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 18:14:40 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Computer Security Division Activities (fwd)
Message-ID: 



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 10:57:27 -0500
From: Elaine Barker 
To: ebarker at nist.gov
Subject: Computer Security Division Activities

NIST's Computer Security Division has recently made the following 
information available:

1. A report of the Second Modes of Operation Workshop, which was held in 
the Santa Barbara area on August 24, is available at 
http://csrc.nist.gov/encryption/modes/workshop2/index.html.

2. A change notice for FIPS 186-2, Digital Signature Standard, is available 
at http://csrc.nist.gov/encryption/tkdigsigs.html. This change notice 
specifies recommended key sizes, suggested modifications to the random 
number generators (RNGs) defined in the FIPS, and recommends a method for 
using the RNGs in the FIPS and in the change notice for general purpose 
applications.

3. The Key Management Schemes document for the Key Management Workshop is 
available at http://csrc.nist.gov/encryption/kms/workshop2-page.html. The 
Key Mgmt. Guideline for the workshop will be available in a few days. The 
workshop is scheduled for November 1-2 at NIST. Registration is REQUIRED 
because of enhanced security procedures (i.e., so that attendees can be 
admitted to the NIST campus). Please see 
http://csrc.nist.gov/encryption/kms/workshop2-page.html for registration 
information.

Elaine Barker
National Institute of Standards and Technology
100 Bureau Dr., Stop 8930
Gaithersburg, MD 20899-8930
Phone: 301-975-2911
Fax: 301-948-1233
Email: ebarker at nist.gov



---------------------------------------------------------------------
The Cryptography Mailing List
Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com




From d1tb at yahoo.com  Thu Oct 11 18:23:45 2001
From: d1tb at yahoo.com (D B)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 18:23:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Osama is Jesus
In-Reply-To: <075fc4ad9e579f1b3cbf890698f76d72@dizum.com>
Message-ID: <20011012012345.37285.qmail@web10206.mail.yahoo.com>


I thought the coming of Christ was to be preceded by
the Anti-christ. Wouldn't that make Osama him? Or, do
you think someone else is noteworthy enough to wear
that crown?

If you patently answer 'Bush', well, that's not even
trying.

Dan

--- Nomen Nescio  wrote:
>     It is truly remarkable how much Osama resembles
> all the 
> pictures of Jesus. Not just his facial features, but
> his eyes,
> his presence. Could it be that this is really the
> Millenium,
> the Second Coming is here and now, and we are just
> on the 
> wrong side? Why else are so many thousands of devout
> people
> praying for his safety, why else do so many call the
> US the
> Great Satan? 
>    Is anyone trying to do an objective comparison of
> recent
> events with the Book of Revelations? Who knows who
> really 
> caused those planes to crash into the WTC? If the
> Great 
> Satan controls all the news media who knows what
> lies we
> are being told? Why don't they want us to hear
> Osama?
Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
http://personals.yahoo.com




From mclark at cdt.org  Thu Oct 11 15:24:52 2001
From: mclark at cdt.org (Michael Clark)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 18:24:52 -0400
Subject: Feingold amendment text URL (was Re: CDT: congressional  
 action call - before Friday morning, October 12, 2001)
In-Reply-To: <20011011152324.A4267@cluebot.com>
References:  
  <20011011152324.A4267@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: 


Unfortunately within only a few hours of having the information 
posted online, I was told that the fact sheet and the amendments were 
already out of date, so I should remove the information. I hope to 
have new information Friday morning, which is an eternity I realize. 
I'll post it as soon as I get it.  Michael


>Michael,
>
>Indeed you guys were (and are) on top of things. But the factsheet
>(http://www.cdt.org/security/011011feingoldfactsheet.shtml) has
>been deleted.
>
>-Declan
>
>
>On Thu, Oct 11, 2001 at 11:57:57AM -0400, Michael Clark wrote:
>  > Hi all,
>  >
>  > We were on the case. But we did not get a postable copy of the text
>  > until Thursday morning and it was posted on our site.
>  >
>  > A fact sheet on Sen. Feingold's amendments is now available at
>  > http://www.cdt.org/security/011011feingoldfactsheet.shtml
>  >
>  > You can also find out who your Senators are at CDT's site at
>  > http://www.cdt.org/action/feingold/ or
>  > http://www.cdt.org/action/contactcongress.shml Michael
>  >


--
Michael Clark, Webmaster
Center for Democracy and Technology
1634 Eye Street NW, Suite 1100    Washington, DC 20006
voice: 202-637-9800    fax: 202-637-0968
mclark at cdt.org         http://www.cdt.org/
PGP Key available on keyservers

Join our Activist Network! Your participation can make a difference!
http://www.cdt.org/join/




From tbr at tabun.com  Thu Oct 11 18:29:35 2001
From: tbr at tabun.com (Tabla bin Rasa)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 18:29:35 -0700
Subject: self medication; Why go to fliight school?
Message-ID: <3BC6477E.8DD3BD1E@tabun.com>


CBS news: alcohol consumption up 30% in NY bars.

Observation: The latest in patented sleep aids (Ambien, a C-IV ie
abusable)
is advertising heavily about getting back to getting enough sleep.
Complete with images of puppies sleeping in baskets.

And Pres Bush is shaking down US children for a buck.

Good thing those golden triangle opiates are getting cheaper.


                 Heard of a van that is loaded with weapons
                         packed up and ready to go
               Heard of some gravesites, out by the highway
                         a place where nobody knows
                  The sound of gunfire, off in the distance
                         I'm getting used to it now
                  Lived in a brownstone, lived in the ghetto
                         I've lived all over this town

                   This ain't no party, this ain't no disco
                         this ain't no fooling around
                     No time for dancing, or lovey dovey
                        I ain't got time for that now

                   Transmit the message, to the receiver
                        hope for an answer some day
                    I got three passports, couple of visas
                        don't even know my real name
                    High on a hillside, trucks are loading
                          everything's ready to roll
                I sleep in the daytime, I work in the nightime
                         I might not ever get home

                   This ain't no party, this ain't no disco
                         this ain't no fooling around
                   This ain't no mudd club, or C. B. G. B.
                        I ain't got time for that now

                 Heard about Houston? Heard about Detroit?
                       Heard about Pittsburgh, P. A.?
                 You oughta know not to stand by the window
                      somebody might see you up there
                  I got some groceries, some peanut butter
                           to last a couple of days
                         But I ain't got no speakers
                           ain't got no headphones
                         ain't got no records to play

                Why stay in college? Why go to fliight school?
                        Gonna be different this time?
                 Can't write a letter, can't send a postcard
                         I can't write nothing at all
                   This ain't no party, this ain't no disco
                         this ain't no fooling around
                  I'd love you hold you, I'd like to kiss you
                       I ain't got no time for that now

                Trouble in transit, got through the roadblock
                        we blended in with the crowd
                We got computers, we're tapping phone lines
                          I know that ain't allowed
              We dress like students, we dress like housewives
                            or in a suit and a tie
                  I changed my hairstyle so many times now
                         don't know what I look like!
                    You make me shiver, I feel so tender
                        we make a pretty good team
                  Don't get exhausted, I'll do some driving
                       you ought to get you some sleep
                    Get you instructions, follow directions
                    then you should change your address
                    Maybe tomorrow, maybe the next day
                         whatever you think is best
             Burned all my notebooks, what good are notebooks?
                         They won't help me survive
                   My chest is aching, burns like a furnace
                         the burning keeps me alive
                    Try to stay healthy, physical fitness
                       don't want to catch no disease
                  Try to be careful, don't take no chances
                       you better watch what you say




From declan at well.com  Thu Oct 11 15:40:29 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 18:40:29 -0400
Subject: Feingold amendment text URL (was Re: CDT: congressional  
  action call - before Friday morning, October 12, 2001)
In-Reply-To: 
References: <20011011152324.A4267@cluebot.com>
  
  
  <20011011152324.A4267@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20011011183956.00a99a90@mail.well.com>


Ah, understood.

The problem is that the Senate is going to be debating the bill -- and the 
amendments -- in an hour or two. :)

-Declan

At 06:24 PM 10/11/01 -0400, Michael Clark wrote:
>Unfortunately within only a few hours of having the information posted 
>online, I was told that the fact sheet and the amendments were already out 
>of date, so I should remove the information. I hope to have new 
>information Friday morning, which is an eternity I realize. I'll post it 
>as soon as I get it.  Michael




From citizenq at hushmail.com  Thu Oct 11 12:18:38 2001
From: citizenq at hushmail.com (citizenq at hushmail.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 19:18:38 +0000
Subject: AOL-TV: "Cheney is probably running the show.  Leave him alone"
Message-ID: <200110111918.f9BJIco19075@mailserver1.hushmail.com>


No shit - right there on the screen.  
Watch for character generator operator fired for leaking secrect information.




From drevil at sidereal.kz  Thu Oct 11 12:26:47 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil)
Date: 11 Oct 2001 19:26:47 -0000
Subject: FBI grammar (was Re: FBI utilizing supermarket club cards
  in   profiling)
In-Reply-To: <3BC589C9.13B9765C@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> (message from Ken Brown
  on Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:00:09 +0100)
References:  <20011010191939.9979.qmail@sidereal.kz>
  <3BC589C9.13B9765C@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <20011011192647.17431.qmail@sidereal.kz>


> In Latin maybe. But English has this nice thing with countable and
> non-countable forms of nouns. "That data" and "those  data" mean subtly
> different things. Like "Some bread" and "some breads".

You mean, I'm using English right now?  All this time I thought I was
speaking Latin!




From jya at pipeline.com  Thu Oct 11 19:50:49 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 19:50:49 -0700
Subject: skyfall, sheepdip, fanshit
In-Reply-To: <3BC6298C.137DC12@semtex.com>
Message-ID: <200110112357.TAA15427@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>


Why beat around the Bush, the purpose of the press release
was to hype Bush's press conference tonight. Somebody
at the FBI was annoyed at having to cook up a dramatic
press release about nothing purely for show. Skyfall's a 
kissing cousin of Carnivore, that is to say, if you don't get 
that these names are used to embarrass upstairs assholes 
you don't deserve to know the truth.

It's like the FBI affidavit on the key logging system (KLS)
in the Scarfo case where a senior official is trucked in to
swear to something he knows little about in order to
convince the judge that withholding information is
necessary. The official's subordinates LTAO at the
turkey's gobbling the facts.

"Skyfall" like Carnivore, like KLS, like Infinite Justice, 
tells a truth of bureacracies indeed all large organizations, 
say, like the City of New York, that the titular leaders 
know only to puke in the prime minister's lap when
Sushied.




From bpayne37 at home.com  Thu Oct 11 19:01:53 2001
From: bpayne37 at home.com (bill payne)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 20:01:53 -0600
Subject: it was murder
Message-ID: <3BC64F10.C15727E3@home.com>


I just talked to Morales in la.

His relative was murdered.

Bullet through the heart.

Morales is from a totally different culture than I am.

We talked about his.  Morales said he is entering the anglo culture.

What is fun about this is me entering the hispanic culture.  BE
CAREFUL.  DON'T PISS THEM OFF!

So we are on the legal attack.
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/8327/

I keep getting these phone calls where no one responds.  So I now
respond AA.

AA [ Answer the phone, Asshole]

cypherpunks

I keep reading this stuff on internet. You guys are DANGEROUS!

best or aa
guillermo  aka bill or biru








From declan at well.com  Thu Oct 11 17:17:54 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 20:17:54 -0400
Subject: American IRA website terrorized by FBI, closed on threats
In-Reply-To: <3BC62847.95F8053E@semtex.com>; from dbob@semtex.com on
  Thu, Oct 11, 2001 at 04:16:23PM -0700
References: <3BC62847.95F8053E@semtex.com>
Message-ID: <20011011201754.A12010@cluebot.com>


Are you sure you believe this report?

See:
http://www.politechbot.com/p-02633.html
http://www.politechbot.com/p-02605.html

I'm not sure I'd take it as face value, especially what Mr. Towle says.

-Declan


On Thu, Oct 11, 2001 at 04:16:23PM -0700, Dynamite Bob wrote:
> (Its started, gentlemen.  This is Bush gratifying Blair now, using
> the Bill of Rights -now useless- to mop up the wetness.)
> 
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/internetnews/story/0,7369,567864,00.html
> 
> Staff and agencies
> Thursday October 11, 2001 
> 
> An American web site accused of
> supporting the Real IRA has been
> shut down at the request of the FBI
> as it cracks down on terrorist
> groups, it emerged today.
> 
> 
> The New York-based web site -
> iraradio.com - contained an archive
> of weekly radio programmes said
> to back the dissident republicans.
> 
>                                                  Travis Towle, the
> owner, today
>                                                  claimed that the FBI
> asked his
>                                                  internet service
> provider to stop
>                                                  giving web space to the
> site or face
>                                                  having its assets
> seized as a
>                                                  backer of terrorism. 
> 
>                                                  "They just yanked us,"
> Mr Towle
>                                                  told the New York Daily
> News.
> 
>                                                  "I think what is going
> on is being
>                                                  done out of fear."
> 
>                                                  John McDonagh, a native
> of
>                                                  Queens, New York, said
> that his
>                                                  show - broadcast every
> Saturday
>                                                  afternoon - would go
> on. He
>                                                  claimed IRA stood for
> Irish
>                                                  Republican Activist and
> denied he
>                                                  had any connection to
> the Real IRA.
> 
>                                                  "If I was running a
> Taliban web site
>                                                  15 years ago, I would
> be
>                                                  considered a patriot
> helping the
>                                                  American cause," he
> added
> 
>                                                  "Today, I would be
> considered a
>                                                  traitor. It is getting
> to be difficult to
>                                                  predict who the
> government is
>                                                  going to call a
> terrorist."
> 
>                                                  Despite Mr McDonagh's
> claim that
>                                                  he would go on
> broadcasting, a
>                                                  statement on the web
> site said Mr
>                                                  Towle's Cosmic
> Entertainment
>                                                  Group had shut it down.
> 
>                                                  "In light of the
> foregoing and the
>                                                  recent tragic events in
> the United
>                                                  States, the Cosmic
> Entertainment
>                                                  company board of
> advisers has
>                                                  deemed it advisable and
> in the
>                                                  best interests of the
> company to
>                                                  temporarily shut down
> the
>                                                  iraradio.com web site
> until the
>                                                  turbulence and
> uncertainty facing
>                                                  our nation has
> decreased."
> 
>                                                  The FBI refused to
> comment on the
>                                                  shut down for security
> reasons.
> 
>                                                  The Real IRA is banned
> from
>                                                  raising funds in
> America and
>                                                  anyone found giving
> them cash can
>                                                  be prosecuted and
> jailed. 
> 
>                                                  It is one of a series
> of
>                                                  organisations
> designated as a
>                                                  terror group, on a list
> that also
>                                                  includes Osama bin
> Laden's
>                                                  al-Qaida network and
> Hezbollah.




From xeni at xeni.net  Thu Oct 11 20:25:17 2001
From: xeni at xeni.net (Xeni Jardin)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 20:25:17 -0700
Subject: Mitnick pops up on ABC-TV spy series "Alias." 
Message-ID: 


I haven't seen this confirmed elsewhere, so take it FWIW. Then again maybe the
big trades don't know who Mitnick is, or care. Hey, maybe Evil Bert will cameo
the following week, when ABC produces an episode on sending messages to sleeper
agents through DIY Bangladeshi Photoshop collages.

------








From jya at pipeline.com  Thu Oct 11 20:29:08 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 20:29:08 -0700
Subject: Tracking the RIAA Source
In-Reply-To: <20011011175436.A8696@cluebot.com>
References: <200110111514.LAA18038@smtp6.mindspring.com>
  <200110111514.LAA18038@smtp6.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <200110120035.UAA25477@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>


But Declan, are you saying your word about checking
is to be believed? I didn't see your proof. How is your 
position not a hoax? Names and dates and documents
to back them or you're a fucking lying hoaxer.

Did you ask to see any of the RIAA messages, and if so,
did you see them. You didn't ask me what might be
in the ones I got, if there were others (there are), if 
this is a campaign run by RIAA to create sympathy,
or some other vile deed much worse than a trivial
hoax which seems to beguile overmuch. 

Why the rush to judgment to believe "people who allegedly
were there?" Where's your healthy skeptcism of these
people. None of the persons listed in the message are
trustworthy if you're not in their loop. Are you in their
loop, then you got a problem vouching for what they
told you. You slimey suckup, you boy with cute eyes.
you, you, Brad Pitt.

Were you so blinded by the desire to whack your competition
that you failed to see a genuine story -- which has yet to
researched and reported? Why the eagerness to wash your
hands, as with Tony Smith, to not follow the lead handed
to you. Why not do an truly original interesting story, you, 
you recycler.

Let me give you some pointers on getting why getting 
sucker punched works, compared to getting fat-headed
on inside dope. You need more punchdrunkenness to
offset your condescending pretentiousness. Grow half
a beard. Chop a finger. And stop grinning so much. 

Take the sucker punches for they give you a look at the 
enemy not available by a frank and earnest confab. Truth
comes out by hammer blows not by popping zits.

You have performed worse than The Register on this,
I opine from this pinnacle of Absolom. And you are now 
using delphic putdowns to beg the important issue -- 
which is why do reporters run from really brusing
challenges yet brag about the creampufferies of,
what else, free speech (spit). A hoax is not worth the 
time it takes to debunk it, they are every where. 
More interesting is what's behind the RIAA orchestrated 
deception kind. If guys like you, offal meisers, did a good 
job there would be no need for us purehearted bottom-feeders 
where the repugant action takes place and where you 
never know for sure who's out to plant false info -- you've 
done that with me more than once. You, you American.

This is the word of Jehovah Allah, so watch your fucking 
obscenity.




From workathomenow3 at excite.com  Thu Oct 11 17:29:58 2001
From: workathomenow3 at excite.com (JOB RESPONSE)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 20:29:58 -0400
Subject: CAREER/JOB OPPORTUNITY--E-COMMERCE
Message-ID: <200110120029.f9C0Twx19453@utopiad.com>

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From schear at lvcm.com  Thu Oct 11 20:40:42 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 20:40:42 -0700
Subject: Feingold amendment
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011011203505.03e0fdf8@pop3.lvcm.com>


The Feindgold amendment to S1510 (The Senate Anti-Terrorism Bill), which 
would have subjected LE requests for personal (medical, educational and 
library) and business records to a higher level of judicial scrutiny and 
stricter state provisions, was just tabled (defeated) by a vote of 89 to 
8.  Our only hope is in the House-Senate committee charged with working out 
differences between the two bills.

steve




From bill at scannell.org  Thu Oct 11 19:01:05 2001
From: bill at scannell.org (Bill Scannell)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 21:01:05 -0500
Subject: Net Ass To Sell PGP, Gauntlet
In-Reply-To: <200110120057.f9C0vYm13691@kizmiaz.dis.org>
Message-ID: 


------ Forwarded Message
From: "Network Associates" 
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 18:01:09 -0700
To: bill at scannell.org
Subject: To Our Valued Customers

***************************************************
[This message is brought to you as a subscriber to the Network
Associates or PGP websites. To unsubscribe, please follow
the instructions at the bottom of the page.]
***************************************************

10/11/2001

To Our Valued Customers:

Since joining Network Associates at the beginning of this year, I have
focused on the best way to provide you, our valued customer, with the best
products and highest possible level of service to ensure that your network
is secure and available. Throughout the Network Associates organization we
have worked to streamline our efforts and develop products that are designed
from the ground up to meet your business needs.  As part of this effort, we
have decided to make some business decisions that will deliver greater value
to your organization.  Moving forward, Network Associates will integrate
several of its security products into the McAfee and Sniffer business units.
This integration will allow us to better meet your complex security needs,
help you drive security more deeply into your corporate infrastructure, and
extend security into your strategic business applications.  Specifically:
PGP VPN, PGPfire (Distributed Firewall), and the PGP E-Business Server will
be integrated into the McAfee business unit.
The CyberCop vulnerability assessment tool continues to be available as a
stand-alone product.  The technology will also be integrated into the McAfee
and Sniffer families of products to enhance and extend the security of
corporate systems and networks.
We have decided that the best way to move forward with the PGP Desktop
encryption and Gauntlet firewall product lines is to continue to maintain
and support our existing customers around the world while looking for a
buyer for those technologies.

We are committed to ensuring that your experience is largely unaffected by
this change, and believe this will bring you greater value with more
advanced and secure technology.  If you have any questions regarding these
changes we have set up a special phone number, (972) 619-7800 which will be
available from 6:00 a.m. until 6:00 p.m. Pacific Time, from today on.  Our
main focus remains on providing you with the security and network
availability solutions you need and look forward to helping you continue to
grow your business.

Best Regards,

George Samenuk 
Chairman, President and Chief Executive Officer
Network Associates, Inc.

********************************************************
------ End of Forwarded Message




From info at giganetstore.com  Thu Oct 11 13:17:52 2001
From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 21:17:52 +0100
Subject: GigaTecnologia!
Message-ID: <088315317200ba1WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com>

  


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-------------- next part --------------
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From schear at lvcm.com  Thu Oct 11 21:20:59 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 21:20:59 -0700
Subject: Feingold amendment
In-Reply-To: <20011011235525.A14834@cluebot.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011011203505.03e0fdf8@pop3.lvcm.com>
  <5.1.0.14.0.20011011203505.03e0fdf8@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011011212029.04cafff0@pop3.lvcm.com>


At 11:55 PM 10/11/2001 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>All three Feingold amendments have been killed by votes of about 90-10
>each time. So much for that idea.

Ah, I tuned in late and only caught the last one.

steve




From schear at lvcm.com  Thu Oct 11 21:32:26 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 21:32:26 -0700
Subject: Verisecurity
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011011212603.03d38ac8@pop3.lvcm.com>


[Those of us who travel from Oakland know the security there is joke.  The 
firm contracted to provide security, ABC, has been put on notice by the 
Port of Oakland committee charged with awarding the security contracts that 
it would be replaced by County Sheriffs within 6 months.  This occurred 
after local media uncovered massive conflicts of interest and incompetence 
in the award process.]

Thursday October 11 09:53 PM EDT
Security Breaches at Oakland Airport
By KPIX - Roz Plater

Security at Oakland International Airport is under increasing scrutiny, 
after reports that several security guards were found sleeping on the job.

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/kpix/20011011/lo/1500_1.html




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Thu Oct 11 18:32:37 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 21:32:37 -0400
Subject: Malls On Halloween
References: <20011012011058.51008.qmail@web10205.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3BC64835.6B10ABFE@acmenet.net>


D B wrote:
> 
> Hi all.
> 
> Long time listener, 2nd time poster.
> 
> My wife received this, and some of you on this list
> seem to be very talented at chasing down hoaxes. I am
> not so.
> 
> For some reason, the formatting looks out of place in
> parts. Anyway, this is how she received it, but I have
> omitted all of the people it has been sent to. Other
> than that, it's verbatim. I haven't called the number
> yet as I just got it, and I assume it's the lady's
> work number.

Took about 15 seconds. On google, type "urban legend debunk". From the
Snopes page, type "halloween afghan" in the search box.



-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From measl at mfn.org  Thu Oct 11 19:34:50 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 21:34:50 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Osama is Jesus
In-Reply-To: <20011012012345.37285.qmail@web10206.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 11 Oct 2001, D B wrote:

> I thought the coming of Christ was to be preceded by
> the Anti-christ. Wouldn't that make Osama him? Or, do
> you think someone else is noteworthy enough to wear
> that crown?
> 
> If you patently answer 'Bush', well, that's not even
> trying.

I was thinking of Harry Potter actually...

> Dan

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From schear at lvcm.com  Thu Oct 11 21:35:14 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 21:35:14 -0700
Subject: FC: FBI posts "skyfall" terrorism alert, says, oops, we'll
  rename
In-Reply-To: <20011011175727.A9199@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011011213258.03d58658@pop3.lvcm.com>


I would be at all surprised if this alarming but useless announcement was 
meant to pressure Congress to keep the strictest measures in the 
anti-terrorism legislation before it.

At 05:57 PM 10/11/2001 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:


>http://www.wired.com/news/conflict/0,2100,47510,00.html
>
>    FBI Warns of 'Skyfall' Attack
>    By Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com)
>    2:35 p.m. Oct. 11, 2001 PDT
>
>    WASHINGTON -- In a brief but dramatic statement, the FBI warned
>    Thursday that Americans should expect additional terrorist attacks.
>
>    A two-sentence press release on FBI.gov said there "may be additional
>    terrorist attacks within the United States and against U.S. interests




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Thu Oct 11 18:45:38 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 21:45:38 -0400
Subject: Osama is Jesus
References: <20011012012345.37285.qmail@web10206.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3BC64B42.75768E7F@acmenet.net>


D B wrote:
> 
> I thought the coming of Christ was to be preceded by
> the Anti-christ. Wouldn't that make Osama him? Or, do
> you think someone else is noteworthy enough to wear
> that crown?
> 
> If you patently answer 'Bush', well, that's not even
> trying.

Nah, Bubba's the Anti-christ, or maybe Bubba and Hillary combined. Run
down the list of the seven deadly sins and I think they're pretty well
covered.

-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Thu Oct 11 21:45:55 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 21:45:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Is Bush Nuking Afghanistan Now?
In-Reply-To: <20011012123951.442ca7c5.inc@fastmedia.net> from "cpaul" at
  Oct 12, 2001 12:39:51 PM
Message-ID: <200110120445.f9C4jtU19627@artifact.psychedelic.net>


cpaul writes:

> THE US 'ANNOUNCED' THEIR INTENTION TO USE B61-11 BUNKER BUSTERS ON LAST
> NIGHT'S NEWS BULLETINS (BUT SOMEHOW FORGOT TO REFER TO THE FACT THAT THEY
> ARE CLASSIFIED AS TACTICAL NUCLEAR WEAPONS)

Yes, I noticed this as well.  I wonder how many euphemisms we will now
hear for the word "nuclear" until the American public is informed after
the fact how wonderfully the weapons have worked.

Such games require quite a bit of collusion on the part of our supposedly
free and independent press.  One wonders what would happen to the press
credentials of a reporter who said - "Scuse me, Ari.  Are those the
nuclear bunker busters we're talking about?"

I don't know if it's related, but there were reports earlier today that
people were reporting seeing bright flashes of light and fireballs in the
direction of Afghanistan.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From measl at mfn.org  Thu Oct 11 19:46:34 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 21:46:34 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Osama is Jesus
In-Reply-To: <075fc4ad9e579f1b3cbf890698f76d72@dizum.com>
Message-ID: 



On Fri, 12 Oct 2001, Nomen Nescio wrote:

> ... why else do so many call the US the Great Satan? 

Because we have some really nasty habits.  Like starving innocent
non-combatants to death over decades for no reason.  And overthrowing
democratically elected goverments that don't toe the US line closely
enough.  Because we are busy imprisoning an entire generation for daring
to question US [drug] "advice"...  

Because the US is a nation of immoral hypocrisy.

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From frissell at panix.com  Thu Oct 11 19:20:59 2001
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 22:20:59 -0400
Subject: NYT:At U.S. Request, Networks Agree to Edit Future bin
  LadenTapes
In-Reply-To: <3BC5AC40.5D68091@cybershamanix.com>
References: 
  <3BC52196.6FBB9725@cybershamanix.com>
  <20011011020706.A4135@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011011221812.038b2200@frissell@brillig.panix.com>


At 09:27 AM 10/11/01 -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>      Perhaps someone out of country could put the recorded interviews up on
>a website in streaming/realplayer/quicktime/whatever format?


Or you could go straight to the horse's mouth:

Al Jazeera

http://www.aljazeera.net

Their live feed (though it's not working for me):

http://www.aljazeera.net/live.asx

"Best experienced using MS Internet Explorer 5.5"

DCF

----
"I brought up blankets, towels, toilet paper, Kleenex, aspirin, a bottle of 
rum and the .38" -- What my grandmother Louise Porter Frissell took to the 
evacuation assembly point at Schofield Barracks, Oahu, Territory of Hawaii, 
on December 7th 1941.




From declan at well.com  Thu Oct 11 19:23:46 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 22:23:46 -0400
Subject: Senate debate right now on CSPAN2
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20011011222255.00a8da10@mail.well.com>


The debate over Feingold's amendments started around 9pm. One got 
overwhelmingly defeated, and Feingold has given up on another. That leaves 
two privacy-protective amendments to go (don't hold your breath).

-Declan




From mix at disastry.dhs.org  Thu Oct 11 13:27:00 2001
From: mix at disastry.dhs.org (Anonymous sender)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 22:27:00 +0200
Subject: AOL-TV: "Cheney is probably running the show.  Leave him alone"
Message-ID: <05f9b1dd39a7826ef5d3ee423593ad3a@disastry.dhs.org>


Daddy's in charge.




From declan at well.com  Thu Oct 11 19:34:33 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 22:34:33 -0400
Subject: Tracking the RIAA Source
In-Reply-To: <200110120035.UAA25477@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>; from
  jya@pipeline.com on Thu, Oct 11, 2001 at 08:29:08PM -0700
References: <200110111514.LAA18038@smtp6.mindspring.com>
  <200110111514.LAA18038@smtp6.mindspring.com>
  <20011011175436.A8696@cluebot.com>
  <200110120035.UAA25477@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20011011223433.B14216@cluebot.com>


John, we all adore you, but you gotta decide whether you're going to
stand behind what you post or not. Either way -- you say it's legit or
you disclaim all knowledge of its validity -- is fine with me, and, I
suspect, the bulk of your readers.

But right now you seem to want to have it both ways. You want to be
able to claim credit for when what you post is legit, and you want to
be able to slink away from what you post that's a fucking lying hoax,
to use your words.

Otherwise you'll just be used by fucking lying hoaxers, and worse.

Let me put this another way. Based on my conversations yesterday, I
have every reason to believe that the hoax was, well, a hoax. If you
have a shred of evidence to the contrary that your hoax-report was in
fact true, please do post it.

No? You don't? I see.

Your fan,
Declan


On Thu, Oct 11, 2001 at 08:29:08PM -0700, John Young wrote:
> But Declan, are you saying your word about checking
> is to be believed? I didn't see your proof. How is your 
> position not a hoax? Names and dates and documents
> to back them or you're a fucking lying hoaxer.
> 
> Did you ask to see any of the RIAA messages, and if so,
> did you see them. You didn't ask me what might be
> in the ones I got, if there were others (there are), if 
> this is a campaign run by RIAA to create sympathy,
> or some other vile deed much worse than a trivial
> hoax which seems to beguile overmuch. 
> 
> Why the rush to judgment to believe "people who allegedly
> were there?" Where's your healthy skeptcism of these
> people. None of the persons listed in the message are
> trustworthy if you're not in their loop. Are you in their
> loop, then you got a problem vouching for what they
> told you. You slimey suckup, you boy with cute eyes.
> you, you, Brad Pitt.
> 
> Were you so blinded by the desire to whack your competition
> that you failed to see a genuine story -- which has yet to
> researched and reported? Why the eagerness to wash your
> hands, as with Tony Smith, to not follow the lead handed
> to you. Why not do an truly original interesting story, you, 
> you recycler.
> 
> Let me give you some pointers on getting why getting 
> sucker punched works, compared to getting fat-headed
> on inside dope. You need more punchdrunkenness to
> offset your condescending pretentiousness. Grow half
> a beard. Chop a finger. And stop grinning so much. 
> 
> Take the sucker punches for they give you a look at the 
> enemy not available by a frank and earnest confab. Truth
> comes out by hammer blows not by popping zits.
> 
> You have performed worse than The Register on this,
> I opine from this pinnacle of Absolom. And you are now 
> using delphic putdowns to beg the important issue -- 
> which is why do reporters run from really brusing
> challenges yet brag about the creampufferies of,
> what else, free speech (spit). A hoax is not worth the 
> time it takes to debunk it, they are every where. 
> More interesting is what's behind the RIAA orchestrated 
> deception kind. If guys like you, offal meisers, did a good 
> job there would be no need for us purehearted bottom-feeders 
> where the repugant action takes place and where you 
> never know for sure who's out to plant false info -- you've 
> done that with me more than once. You, you American.
> 
> This is the word of Jehovah Allah, so watch your fucking 
> obscenity.




From frissell at panix.com  Thu Oct 11 19:34:52 2001
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 22:34:52 -0400
Subject: NYT:At U.S. Request, Networks Agree to Edit Future bin
  LadenTapes
In-Reply-To: <3BC5AC40.5D68091@cybershamanix.com>
References: 
  <3BC52196.6FBB9725@cybershamanix.com>
  <20011011020706.A4135@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011011223100.051257b0@frissell@brillig.panix.com>


At 09:27 AM 10/11/01 -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>      Perhaps someone out of country could put the recorded interviews up on
>a website in streaming/realplayer/quicktime/whatever format?


Here's a translator that will let you view the Al Jazerra site:

http://tarjim.ajeeb.com/ajeeb/

Click English Site on right

Click Aljazzer.net on the top of the Most Visited Sites list to the left

DCF




From vacacionesenelcaribe at uole.com.ve  Thu Oct 11 23:13:26 2001
From: vacacionesenelcaribe at uole.com.ve (DreamTime Tours International)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 23:13:26
Subject: 8 NOCHES CANCUN Y PUERTO PLATA POR TAN SOLO $399!
Message-ID: <200110120313.UAA15550@toad.com>


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entonces tine que llamar ahora mismo.

SUS VACACIONES DE LUJO INCLUYEN:
6 días y 5 noches de alojamiento de lujo en PUERTO PLATA, REPUBLICA, DOMINICANA 
con TODO INCLUIDO. Esto significa todos los 
entretenimientos, bebidas, comidas y deportes acuáticos están incluidos.
Su lujoso alojamiento en Puerto Plata incluye playas privadas de arena blanca, programas 
para niños, discotecas, clubes, comidas estilo 
gourmet y muchísimo más.
Le brindamos el transporte entre el aeropuerto de Puerto Plata y su lujoso hotel de alta 
categoría.
Ademas tendrá otros 4 días y 3 noches de alojamiento en CANCUN, MEXICO también con 
TODO INCLUIDO.
**Acuerdese que todo inluido significa que usted no gastará nada adicional al precio del 
programa ni en comida ni en tragos ni en refrescos ni 
en servicios ni entreteniminetos ni propinas.**

Para aprovechar esta magnífica oportunida y ahorrar más de mil dolares en sus proximas 
vacaciones hay que llamar ahora mismo al 001-305-
899-8889.

RESERVACION
 80114905
CONTROL
PKG018

DreamTime Tours International Travel Services tiene el orgullo de patrocinar este evento. 
Somos uno de los mayoristas de viajes más grandes 
de la Florida y el número uno del mercado hispano. Ubicado en Miami, Florida, DreamTime 
Tours International  ha hecho viajar más de 50,000 
familias en los ultimos 9 años en las vacaciones de sus sueños. Nuestra licencia estatal de 
la Florida es el ST-22168 y sus vacaciónes están 
garantizadas 100%.
Estamos haciendo esta oferta internacional solo al titular de este correo electrónico con el 
proposito de promover el turismo en la Florida. Esto 
no es una promoción para tiempo compartido, bienes raices ní "time share"sino una oferta 
legitima de vacaciones de uno de los mayores 
vendedores al por mayor de vacaciones de la Florida.
Favor de imprimir este documento y tener listo el número de reservación que aparece 
arriba. Esta es una oferta limitada y los operadores están 
esperando su llamada en la linea especial para la mayoría de los países del mundo 001-
305-899-8889.  (Si llama desde Colombia el número es 
el 0091-305-899-8889 y desde Paraguay es el 0021-305-899-8889)

¡Si esta ocupado siga llamando!
Debido a la gran cantidad de llamadas que recibimos solo se permite una sola llamada por 
invitación.

Lunes a Viernes 8:00 AM a 10:30 PM
Sábados 9:00 AM a 5:00 PM
(Domingos cerrado)

DREAMTIME TOURS está registrado en el estado de la Florida como mayorista de viajes. 
Registro número ST-22168. DREAMTIME TOURS 
le garantiza sus reservas a través de nuestro departamento reservaciones.  Somos 
miembros de la Camara de Comercio,  de CLIA y de IATAN.

TERMINOS Y CONDICIONES
DREAMTIME TOURS es una agencia autorizada de reservaciones en los E.E.U.U. de 
todas las demás empresas arriba mencionadas y lleva a 
cabo el cumplimiento de este promoción de vacaciones. Nuestro éxito se debe a que 
nuestros clientes vuelven a viajar con nosotros una y 
otra vez. Esta oferta no se le ofrece al público en general. Queda bajo las leyes y 
regulaciones federales, estatales y locales. Esta oferta no 
está relacionada con ninguna oferta de tiempo compartido o "time share" ni con ninguna 
oferta de bienes raíces. El cumplimiento de esta 
oferta está garantizada por el departamento de reservaciones de DREAMTIME TOURS 
que está registrada como agencia de viajes en la 
Florida con el registro ST-22168. Todos los paquetes vacacionales para esta promoción 
exclusiva son para un mínimo de dos personas. A 
cada persona notificada se le ha asignado números de control y reservación. Ciertas 
restricciones pueden aplicar. Esto no es ninguna lotería, 
concurso o sorteo. ¡Se acepta una sola llamada para inscribirse! No se aceptan llamdas de 
terceros ni se le pueden dar detalles. Un hotel 
puede ser sustituido por otro de la misma clase si no hubiese disponibilidad. El precio citado 
arriba no incluye cargos administrativo, tramites de 
reservación, impuestos,  ní envio y manajo.

DREAMTIME TOURS INTERNATIONAL TRAVEL SERVICES
12000 Biscayne Blvd. Suite 202
Miami, Florida 33181
001-305-899-8889

(Si responde a este e-mail con su nombre, número de reservación, el nombre de su país, el 
codigo de area o lada de su ciudad y su número de 
teléfono NOSOTROS LE LLAMAREMOS A TODA BREVEDAD para matricularle para esta 
gran programa.)

This offer is intended only for opt in clients of DreamTime Tours International who live in 
Latin America and Spain; if you believe that you have 
received this by error or do not wish to receive future offers please respond to this e-mail 
with the subject line "REMOVE".
Si usted no desea recibir ofertas en el futuro favor de responder a este e-mail con el sujeto 
"NO MAS"
© 2001 Derechos reservados de Trend Marketing & Associates, Inc




From declan at well.com  Thu Oct 11 20:55:25 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 23:55:25 -0400
Subject: Feingold amendment
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011011203505.03e0fdf8@pop3.lvcm.com>; from
  schear@lvcm.com on Thu, Oct 11, 2001 at 08:40:42PM -0700
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011011203505.03e0fdf8@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: <20011011235525.A14834@cluebot.com>


All three Feingold amendments have been killed by votes of about 90-10
each time. So much for that idea.

I'm going to be writing tomorrow about the conference committee. I wouldn't
be too optimistic about the prospects there.

Face it, folks, Congress is now dysfunctional.*

-Declan
* Maybe it was before, but it's just so glaringly obvious now.




On Thu, Oct 11, 2001 at 08:40:42PM -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
> The Feindgold amendment to S1510 (The Senate Anti-Terrorism Bill), which 
> would have subjected LE requests for personal (medical, educational and 
> library) and business records to a higher level of judicial scrutiny and 
> stricter state provisions, was just tabled (defeated) by a vote of 89 to 
> 8.  Our only hope is in the House-Senate committee charged with working out 
> differences between the two bills.
> 
> steve




From declan at well.com  Thu Oct 11 21:29:12 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 00:29:12 -0400
Subject: Feingold amendment
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011011212029.04cafff0@pop3.lvcm.com>
References: <20011011235525.A14834@cluebot.com>
  <5.1.0.14.0.20011011203505.03e0fdf8@pop3.lvcm.com>
  <5.1.0.14.0.20011011203505.03e0fdf8@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20011012002236.00a8cdd0@mail.well.com>


At 09:20 PM 10/11/01 -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
>Ah, I tuned in late and only caught the last one.

Yeah. The sequence went as follows, starting at 9 pm:
1. Feingold introduced amendment to the USA Act
2. Feingold, Wellstone, Cantwell spoke in favor of it
3. Just about everyone else led by Hatch, Leahy, Daschle opposed it
4. Daschle moved to table
5. Everyone voted to table
6. Goto Line 1

The votes were:
83-13 to table the trespasser snooping amendment
90-7 to table roving wiretap limits
89-8 to table subpoena limits

Feingold did a reasonable enough job, but he did wimp out and not introduce 
the "secret search ban" amendment. Would have been good to have some debate 
on that. Debate ended around midnight.

-Declan




From reeza at hawaii.rr.com  Fri Oct 12 03:33:33 2001
From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 00:33:33 -1000
Subject: Bunker Buster
In-Reply-To: <20011012010217.A6176@spheno.jokeslayer.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011012002924.02f67260@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com>


At 01:02 AM 10/12/01 -0700, Max Inux wrote:
 >These things are TOUGH MOTHER FUCKER that go big boom.
 >
 >-Max
 >
 >http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/bomber/n19980326_980417.html
 >
 >EIELSON AIR FORCE BASE, Alaska (AFNS) -- A B-2 Spirit bomber dropped two
 >B61-11 bomb shells to test their improved ground penetration capability
 >March 17 at the Stuart Creek Impact Area, 35 miles southeast of Fairbanks.
 >
<...>
 >
 >A team excavated the two unexploded dummy bombs and took careful
 >measurements of their angles and depth of penetration into the soil, which
 >were 6 and 10 feet,

Jesus christ on a pogo stick jumping for salvation, what sort of crap
is this?

"A new case design lets it penetrate the ground to a depth of 15 to 25
feet, where the weapon would then detonate."

Jesus christ on a pogo stick jumping for salvation, what sort of crap
is this?  That's going to bust a bunker?

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smart/gbu-28.htm

15 to 25 feet, I'm going to LMAO,,,

Reese





From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Fri Oct 12 00:35:00 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 00:35:00 -0700
Subject: Who speaks for the detained
Message-ID: <20011012003500.A2296@navel.introspect>


At last nights "BayFF" public meeting on pending anti-terrorist
legislation, John Gilmore made what I felt was a very good point in the
Q&A:

   Who is representing the 500+ people detained in the ongoing Sept. 11
   investigation?

Even assuming the Feds are being good at picking up people fitting
profiles, there are doubtless innocents in the detained group.  My
understanding is that most are being held as material witnesses, under
immigration rules (recently revised), not formally charged with any
crime -- and hence not eligible for public defenders.

The two panelists representing general civil rights causes, Robert Rubin
(Legal Director, Lawyers Committee for Civil Rights of the SF Bay Area)
and Ann Brick (Staff Attourney, ACLU of Northern California) were
disturbingly uninformed on the issue, Ann's comment was "nobody's
contacted us" (well, um, yes...).

As the names of the detainees haven't been released (this might
compromise the investigation), yet the detainees may not have access to
council, this seems to be, as one audience member commented, a catch-22.

Press coverage on this topic is sparse at best.  I've found one Yahoo
story dating from Oct 2 which claims the detainees "were permitted to
consult a lawyer" and were provided "documents in their native
language".

    http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011002/pl/attack_detentions_dc_1.html

Anyone here have data on the situation?

Peace.

--
Karsten M. Self         http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?              Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                    Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA!  http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                      http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]




From declan at well.com  Thu Oct 11 21:39:20 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 00:39:20 -0400
Subject: FC: FBI posts "skyfall" terrorism alert, says, oops, we'll
  rename
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011011213258.03d58658@pop3.lvcm.com>
References: <20011011175727.A9199@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20011012003747.00a8b6c0@mail.well.com>


Nah. Right now the executive branch is more worried about spooking the 
public than lobbying Congress over a fight they've already won. Also, 
senators' minds were made up long before the late-afternoon news of this 
"skyfall" release got out. Besides, how much more support do they need? A 
vote of 94-3 instead of 90-7?

-Declan

At 09:35 PM 10/11/01 -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
>I would be at all surprised if this alarming but useless announcement was 
>meant to pressure Congress to keep the strictest measures in the 
>anti-terrorism legislation before it.




From anmetet at freedom.gmsociety.org  Thu Oct 11 21:39:48 2001
From: anmetet at freedom.gmsociety.org (An Metet)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 00:39:48 -0400
Subject: Osama is Jesus
Message-ID: 


>  Bush is just a mindless puppet channeling the Masters of
> the Illuminatti. 

   Aha, no wonder he reminds me so much of Hitler, who was also 
channeling the Masters. 




From nobody at dizum.com  Thu Oct 11 15:40:16 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 00:40:16 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Osama is Jesus
Message-ID: <075fc4ad9e579f1b3cbf890698f76d72@dizum.com>


    It is truly remarkable how much Osama resembles all the 
pictures of Jesus. Not just his facial features, but his eyes,
his presence. Could it be that this is really the Millenium,
the Second Coming is here and now, and we are just on the 
wrong side? Why else are so many thousands of devout people
praying for his safety, why else do so many call the US the
Great Satan? 
   Is anyone trying to do an objective comparison of recent
events with the Book of Revelations? Who knows who really 
caused those planes to crash into the WTC? If the Great 
Satan controls all the news media who knows what lies we
are being told? Why don't they want us to hear Osama?




From nobody at hyperreal.pl  Thu Oct 11 17:43:48 2001
From: nobody at hyperreal.pl (Anonymous)
Date: 12 Oct 2001 00:43:48 -0000
Subject: [BIOWAR] Al Qaida biological warfare factories attacked
  (fwd)
Message-ID: <10b0dc640e001875fdd72cce2a631513@hyperreal.pl>


>If that proves out, I'd say the US can now tell the Taliban, roll over
>or be nuked, in accordance with long-held US policy. Same for any other

Lemme see ... this will "prove out" by sending a trusted delegation
independent from US control into afgan deserts to do analysis of
whatever is left over ?

Or will CNN report be sufficient ?

Otherwise, kudos for improvement from "we" to "the US".




From maxinux at bigfoot.com  Fri Oct 12 01:02:17 2001
From: maxinux at bigfoot.com (Max Inux)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 01:02:17 -0700
Subject: Bunker Buster
Message-ID: <20011012010217.A6176@spheno.jokeslayer.com>


These things are TOUGH MOTHER FUCKER that go big boom.

-Max

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/bomber/n19980326_980417.html

EIELSON AIR FORCE BASE, Alaska (AFNS) -- A B-2 Spirit bomber dropped two 
B61-11 bomb shells to test their improved ground penetration capability 
March 17 at the Stuart Creek Impact Area, 35 miles southeast of Fairbanks.

The tests here were designed to measure the nuclear bomb casing's 
penetration into frozen soil and the survivability of the weapon's 
internal components.

These were the final two tests needed to certify the weapon system as 
operational.

A team excavated the two unexploded dummy bombs and took careful 
measurements of their angles and depth of penetration into the soil, which 
were 6 and 10 feet, according to Ellsworth Rolfs, a B61-11 program test 
manager. The shells were sent back to Sandia National Laboratories in New 
Mexico for full analysis of how the simulated internal components fared in 
the impact.
...

"The test unit casing didn't rupture in any of our tests, including drops 
through concrete from 40,000 feet," he said. "We fully recovered all test 
units 100 percent intact."




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From: info at life-protect.com (info at life-protect.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 01:25:17 -0500
Subject: Protect yourself !
Message-ID: <200110120625.BAA02772@einstein.ssz.com>




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From meetingpunks-admin at cryptorights.org  Fri Oct 12 01:35:46 2001
From: meetingpunks-admin at cryptorights.org (Dave Del Torto)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 01:35:46 -0700
Subject: [MPUNKS] Cypherpunks 011013 at Stanford: Anti-Terrorism &
  Security Policy
Message-ID: 


IF YOU GET THIS TWICE: Sorry, it's because we're transitioning MLMs.

See  for subscription help and 
 Cypherpunks meeting announcements from around the world.

..........................................................................

SF Bay Area Cypherpunks

October 2001 Physical Meeting Announcement

GENERAL INFO:

  DATE:  Saturday 13 October 2001
  TIME:  1:00-6:00 PM (Pacific Time)
 PLACE:  Tressider Student Union Courtyard
         Stanford University Campus
         Palo Alto, California, USA

This Cypherpunks meeting will begin forming around 12:00 PM, and the 
structured Agenda will begin at approximately 1:00 PM.


AGENDA:

 "Our agenda is a widely-held secret."

 As usual, this is an Open Meeting on US Soil, and everyone's invited
 ...yes, even the Director of Homeland Defense.

......................................................
 1. Recent Cypherpunk News

Various Cypherpunks have been on the road recently, and will share 
important news updates and colorful stories with us about their 
journeys.

CryptoRights Foundation representatives will also have some very 
good news about CRF's recent progress.

......................................................
 2. Anti-Terrorism

This meeting will feature a discussion on the implications for our 
open society of two major legislative proposals resulting from the 
recent crimes against humanity in NY, DC and PA. The Mobilization 
Against Terrorism Act (MATA) and it's follow-on, the Uniting and 
Strengthening America (USA) Act, are dramatic new proposals creating 
major arguments in Congress. They include provisions that:

 * Define "computer intrusions" as a (federal) Terrorism offense.
 * Add convicted krackers to a central federal DNA database.
 * Remove wiretap restrictions on email scanning, web surveillance and
    voicemail inspections by law enforcement.
 * Remove controls on roving (person-specific) wiretaps, implying 
    wiretap capability in all communications infrastructures.
 * Allow LEAs to share wiretap data with any Executive Branch employee.
 * Make domestic surveillance easier under FISA (Foreign Intel Surv Act)
 * Provide US intelligence agencies with access to Grand Jury documents.
 * Let the President designate US Citizens as FISA surveillance targets.
 * Create free speech restrictions on "expert advice" to USG-defined 
    "terrorists".
 * Authorize the CIA to "hire terrorists".

In addition to MATA and USAA, the Administration has established a 
new (soon to be Cabinet) position heading the Office of Homeland 
Defense (OHD) for coordination of law enforcement and intelligence 
efforts, including centralization of databases storing information 
about US Citizens.

These new initiatives have all been positioned and marketed to voters 
as making Americans safer from the scourge of global Terrorism, but 
we'll be asking the tough, skeptical questions:

 Q: Will these initiatives really make our lives more secure or simply
     make the US a Police State?
 Q: Assuming these proposals work, are they worth sacrificing our civil
     liberties?

We'll also discuss the amendments proposed by Russell Feingold (D-WI) 
to the USAA which:

 * Bar police from performing court-ordered "secret searches".
 * Narrow the ability the bill gives employers, schools and public 
    libraries to spy on users, rather than allowing spying on 
    all "computer trespassers".
 * Protect medical/academic records by requiring a judge's permission
    instead of giving police access to all "tangible" data.
 * Modify "roving wiretaps" to permit eavesdropping only when the 
    target is on specific hardware but not when others use it.

In addition, our resident legal eagles will help us evaluate the 
Constitutionality of these measures, and we'll also include a 
discussion the Snake-Oil Protection Act (aka the DMCA), and the 
wisdom of letting people who do not design security systems write 
legislation affecting everyone's security.

Background info:
 USAA 
 MATA 
 OHD 
 DMCA 
 EFF Analysis by Lee Tien and Shari Steele:
  


......................................................
 3. CRF Human Rights Security Policy Design Session #1

A good security policy is essential to good security in any 
organization and many organizations don't know where to start. 
CryptoRights is designing a comprehensive security policy template 
for our human rights NGO clients, and we need the active 
participation of the Cypherpunk Community. Please send and/or bring 
non-proprietary policy documents/doc fragments, FAQs, URLs, papers 
you've written or read, books you use and any other resources you can 
think of regarding security policy design. We'll spread it all out on 
the floor and begin brainstorming and creating the ultimate security 
policy document in the first session of many.

This document will be a showplace for Cypherpunk core competency. CRF 
and its client NGOs and partners will be able to use it or portions 
of it to bootstrap the wide adoption of a variety of communications 
security tools, in order to establish their utility for the global 
society.

To add to the overall complexity of such a project, we also have to 
contend with the new politics in the post-9/11 world. It's going to 
have to be an amazingly flexible and comprehensive document built 
from many different security professionals' experiences and 
contributions.

Our many design challenges include:

 * Flexible threat model definitions 
 * Encryption tool interfaces and training requirements 
 * Fieldworker security and travel considerations 
 * NGO security team qualifications and administrator credentials 
 * Law enforcement issues 
 * Integration with small/wearable platforms 
 * Revocation issues 
 * Authentication guidelines and procedures for online documents 
 * Physical security considerations 
 * Interfacing with other NGO security infrastructures 
 * Surveillance and counter-surveillance 
 * Protections from terrorists 
 * Field intelligence and urban counter-intelligence 
 * Human rights trustgroup trust models 
 * Evidence authentication and encryption frameworks 
 * E-commerce and digital cash for human rights NGOs 
 * Voice encryption and radio/telephony tradecraft 
 * Human rights public key infrastructure management 
 * Secret sharing requirements and guidelines 
 * Keyservers 
 * Hardware security tokens 
 * Biometrics 
 * Privacy policy 
 * Remailers and identity management guidelines and technology 
 * IPsec and DNSsec capabilities 
 * ...and more 

Bring, laptops, pads of paper, whiteboard markers and your thinking caps!
Submissions are welcome anytime, even after the meeting (we'll have more):
   Email to:  or
   Anonymous FTP uploads to: .
Please support and participate in this important community initiative!


..........................................................................
LOCATION:

   The Stanford meeting location will be familiar to those who've been to our
   outdoor summer meetings before, but for those who haven't been, it's on the
   Stanford University campus (in Palo Alto, California), at the end of 
   Santa Theresa, at the tables outside Tressider Union, just west of 
   Dinkelspiel Auditorium.

   We meet at the tables on the West side of the building, inside the
   horseshoe "U" formed by the Tressider building. Ask anyone on campus 
   where "Tressider" or the "Student Union" is and they'll help you find it.

   If the weather is bad, we'll meet inside.

   Food/beverages are available at the cafe and mini-market inside.

   Location Maps:
   Tressider Union (overview):
     http://www.stanford.edu/home/map/search_map.html?keyword=&ACADEMIC=Tresidder+Union
   Tressider Union (zoomed detail view):
     http://www.stanford.edu/home/map/stanford_zoom_map.html?234,312
   Printable Stanford Map (407k).
     http://www.stanford.edu/home/visitors/campus_map.pdf

   GPS Coordinates: 37d23:40 N 122d04:49 W 

..........................................................................
HELP?

If you get lost, or have questions, comments or last-minute agenda 
requests, please contact your friendly meeting organizers:

 Dave Del Torto    Cell: +1.415.730.3583
 Bill Stewart     Cell: +1.415.307.7119

..........................................................................
Heads-Up for November!

The November meeting will be indoors, somewhere in San Francisco 
(location TBD). Two very special events are being planned:

(1) We hope to have the much-awaited Second Part of Black Unicorn's 
presentation at the June meeting of his Analysis of Cocaine 
Smuggling. In light of recent events, the national security 
implications of his conclusions are more significant than ever.

(2) Eric Blossom may present some very important CRF research and 
development work on a Software Defined Radio for evaluating the 
security of wireless devices. If you didn't see Eric's talk at 
HAL2001, you shouldn't miss this. Early running code will be 
demonstrated.

END




From akita777 at tc5.so-net.ne.jp  Thu Oct 11 10:12:40 2001
From: akita777 at tc5.so-net.ne.jp (akita777 at tc5.so-net.ne.jp)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 02:12:40 +0900
Subject: =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCPSlFRDdDSH4kSD89JDckXiQ5ISMbKEI=?=
Message-ID: <1012101021240.10449@optserver>


出版・プレス関係の方にホームページのお知らせ（プレスリリース）メールさ
せていただいています。

こちらの不手際の為、これらと一切関係の無い方へ配信された場合は大変申し訳
ございませんでした。このメールの破棄をお願いします。お詫び申し上げます。

この度、女性写真家の『本庄奈津子』さんの協力をいただき、フェチ＆ＳＭ写真
のホームページを立ち上げました。
ただのアダルトの面から撮影しているのではなく、写真家としての目から女性の
羞恥美を捕らえてもらおうという企画です。

-------------------------------------------------------------------
　■　女性写真家　本庄奈津子　公式オフィシャルサイト　■
MIRACLE〜フェチ＆S/M写真集〜
http://www.natuko-miracle.com/red/10.html
-------------------------------------------------------------------
本庄奈津子さんは、現在、多数の雑誌やメディアでも取り上げられ始めた女性
新鋭の写真家です。

本庄さんの公式オフィシャルサイトとして、毎月、３，０００枚以上の女子校生、
ウエディングドレスなどの写真を公開しています。
ホームページのアクセス・閲覧は無料ですので一度お気軽にお越しください。
http://www.natuko-miracle.com/red/10.html

また、Google、yahooでも『本庄奈津子』で検索できますので一度ご参考ください。
ちなみにGoogleの検索結果はこちらです↓　
http://www.google.com/search?q=%96%7B%8F%AF%93%DE%92%C3%8Eq&hl=ja&lr=lang_ja

===========================================================
　ＭＩＲＡＣＬＥ
　　　広報部　（プレス関係担当）秋田恵美
E-MAIL　：　akita777 at tc5.so-net.ne.jp
===========================================================





From citizenQ at ziplip.com  Fri Oct 12 03:58:36 2001
From: citizenQ at ziplip.com (citizenQ)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 03:58:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: bunkerbuster: not just for nukes
Message-ID: <0VGUYFZO53EEMDNKCWOWMAUEXYRP4TVIX2CX4SCS@ziplip.com>


>cpaul writes:
>
>> THE US 'ANNOUNCED' THEIR INTENTION TO USE B61-11 BUNKER BUSTERS ON LAST
>> NIGHT'S NEWS BULLETINS (BUT SOMEHOW FORGOT TO REFER TO THE FACT THAT THEY
>> ARE CLASSIFIED AS TACTICAL NUCLEAR WEAPONS)
>

Confirmation?

>Yes, I noticed this as well.  I wonder how many euphemisms we will now
>hear for the word "nuclear" until the American public is informed after
>the fact how wonderfully the weapons have worked.
>

Possibly confused with this bunker buster:
Guided Bomb Unit-28 (GBU-28) 
BLU-113 Penetrator 

The Guided Bomb Unit-28 (GBU-28) is a special weapon developed for penetrating hardened Iraqi command centers located deep underground. The GBU-28 is a 5,000-pound
laser-guided conventional munition that uses a 4,400-pound penetrating warhead. The bombs are modified Army artillery tubes, weigh 4,637 pounds, and contain 630 pounds of
high explosives. They are fitted with GBU-27 LGB kits, 14.5 inches in diameter and almost 19 feet long. The operator illuminates a target with a laser designator and then the
munition guides to a spot of laser energy reflected from the target. 

Much more likely.  Hard to imagine a scenario where tacnukes would be deployed.  

>These things are TOUGH MOTHER FUCKER that go big boom.
>
>-Max
>
>http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/bomber/n19980326_980417.html
>
>EIELSON AIR FORCE BASE, Alaska (AFNS) -- A B-2 Spirit bomber dropped two 
>B61-11 bomb shells to test their improved ground penetration capability 
>March 17 at the Stuart Creek Impact Area, 35 miles southeast of Fairbanks.




From nobody at dizum.com  Thu Oct 11 20:01:42 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 05:01:42 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Osama is Jesus
Message-ID: <293a1ed05486341e1039dbc618fa8ac6@dizum.com>


DB asked:

> 
> I thought the coming of Christ was to be preceded by
> the Anti-christ. Wouldn't that make Osama him? Or, do
> you think someone else is noteworthy enough to wear
> that crown?

    Dear me, no, how could Osama be the Anti-Christ? That
was clearly Clinton. The Anti-Christ wouldn't have masses
of people praying for him, only Messiah Osama has so many
devoted followers and disciples. 
   Bush is just a mindless puppet channeling the Masters of
the Illuminatti. 




From mixmaster at remailer.segfault.net  Thu Oct 11 20:23:34 2001
From: mixmaster at remailer.segfault.net (Anonymous Coredump)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 05:23:34 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Sun's McNealy seeks national ID card, too
Message-ID: <6222e6c301fb1e22d70ebf716136aec7@remailer.segfault.net>


from 

Thursday October 11 2:12 PM ET 

Sun Micro CEO Sees More Support for National ID
By Broward Liston

ORLANDO, Fla. (Reuters) - Scott McNealy, chairman and CEO of Sun
Microsystems Inc., said Thursday his long-held belief the United States
needs a national identity system has gained a lot of traction since the
Sept. 11 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.

``This is more than a sea change,'' McNealy said to reporters at an 
industry conference in Orlando. ``I have not spoken to one person who 
hasn't flipped a switch to say, 'You're darn right, I want to know who's 
getting on a plane with me.'''

Sun developed the Java computer platform, which could someday provide the 
language needed for a smart-card identification system to deal with 
computers at airports, shopping malls, research facilities and other 
locations where McNealy said anonymity could prove dangerous.

``Absolute anonymity breeds absolute irresponsibility,'' he said. ``We 
need a thumbprint Java card in the hand of everybody in the country.''

Civil libertarians have heaped scorn on McNealy, but he dismissed their 
concerns.

``I'm tired of the outrage. If you get on a plane, I want to know who you 
are. If you rent a crop duster, I want to know who you are,'' he said.

McNealy said it would be the job of Congress to decide when people can be 
anonymous and when they cannot. He warned that the United States faces ``a 
huge efficiency tax'' for security if it does not adopt a simple system of 
identification.

``Hiring 50 humans isn't going to solve that problem,'' he said.

McNealy appeared at a symposium sponsored by Gartner, the high-tech 
consulting and analysis firm. McNealy also responded to remarks made at 
the conference the previous day by Steve Ballmer, chief executive of 
Microsoft Corp.

Ballmer said Sun's Liberty Alliance Project, an identity authentication 
and authorization service meant to speed on-line transactions, ``has 
absolutely no probability of mattering to the world.''

Microsoft will compete with a similar service called Passport. Microsoft 
will go it alone on its service, while Sun is working with dozens of 
companies from eBay Inc. to General Motors Corp. 

McNealy said Thursday the number of partners could grow into the 
thousands. He said the strength of his system was that each partner would 
maintain its own customer list and could arrange data sharing with one 
another on their own terms.

``Hertz and United Airlines can work out their own deal instead of going
to Microsoft and saying 'How much do we have to pay you?''' McNealy said.

Microsoft believes its customer base of 120 million will make it dominant 
in the field. Sun is betting the flexibility of its system will make it 
more appealing to merchants. 




From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Oct 12 07:18:13 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 07:18:13 -0700
Subject: RIAA Safeweb Ping 
Message-ID: <200110121124.HAA03055@granger.mail.mindspring.net>


Based some three dozen pings of Safeweb IP address 64.124.150.130
from locations in the US and overseas, all pings conclude with these
5 or 6 hops:

  lga1-lhr3-stm64.lga1.above.net (64.125.31.182)  (New York, NY)
  core2-lga1-oc192.lga2.above.net (208.184.232.198)  (New York, NY)
  main1colo45-core2-oc48.lga2.above.net (216.200.127.174)  (New York, NY)

About half the pings timed out before the last hop at:

  208.184.48.173.safeweb.com (San Jose, CA)

A few hit a "private" address after 208.184.48.173:

  10.100.0.2 (no location)

before ending at:

  64.124.150.130.safeweb.com (San Jose, CA)

The station locations were provided by trace route program
VisualRoute.

Interpretation is needed for:

1. How much about the Safeweb stations is true and how much cloaking.
2. Why some pings timed out and others didn't.
3. Phantom station 10.100.0.2
4. Whether the San Jose hops actually go to San Jose or are spoofed.
5. Why go to New York then hop across the continent unless the
last hops are just administrative not physical.
6. How is cloaking done on addresses and physical locations

Is cloaking done by a Safeweb program, say by address spoofer or by 
phantom proxies, or is there a way to do this by special agreement 
with Network Central (whatever that is), say, as Intel Web and other 
classified systems covertly use the Web.

Recall that Safeweb was selected for financial support by the
CIA so intel officers could use it to cloak their Net use. And other
programs such as Onion make use of sub-Net features not easily
available to the surface user.

Now, onto news of the RIAA leaker (not yet a proven hoaxer despite
Declan, RIAA and friends hoaxing that).

We received a third message yesterday from the alleged source 
of the RIAA allegations who was pissed at our attempts to trace
the source. Use of Safeweb was admitted. Angry words were
hurled at us. Allegations were made that parties have been
punished for the leak though not the leaker who fears that
information about the traces could be used for that. Here's
our response:

-----

October 11, 2001

I very much appreciate your concern. I have stated publicly
that I do not yet believe there has been a hoax and that the source 
of the messages will not be disclosed if the messages can 
be shown to be legitimate.  Not that I have any hard information
on who you are. And don't need to know who you are so long
as your information is reliable. Hell, it doesn't have to be reliable
just provocative and unsettling.

Right now there is a push on by a host of people to promote 
that the messages are a hoax, and if they prevail RIAA will 
be the main beneficiary. And a great story becomes a bore.

It is to head off that win by RIAA, to avoid giving them improved
protection against future abuses as a result of the alleged hoax, 
that I wish to get from you information that will demonstrate 
there was no hoax. Again without putting you in jeopardy.

In a tough fight like this RIAA and its supporters will do whatever
they can to smear and deny your revelations. That's the
way it is, so fighting back is the only answer to prevent an
RIAA win by default as result of your valiant effort.

Listen, this very thing happens every time we put up a
controversial document, and your protection is paramount,
but opponents of publication will fight like hell to deny
the truth. But you surely know that. Now is when the
going gets tough. You need to decide how to avoid losing
this battle, losing your reputation and the whole shebang.

I say come forth with proof of the meeting and comments
made, provide it through a secure channel to protect your
identity. But don't let this story die a useless death.

Tony Smith ducked and ran. Not here, the story stays on
Cryptome, along with the story of what happened after
your account was published. Disinformation is as good
as information, maybe better. 

But if you want to abandon what you started, I'll understand
and wait for the next opportunity to buck the fuckers.

-----




From frissell at panix.com  Fri Oct 12 04:24:04 2001
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 07:24:04 -0400
Subject: Feingold amendment
In-Reply-To: <3BC6C613.A5775A8F@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
References: <20011011235525.A14834@cluebot.com>
  <5.1.0.14.0.20011011203505.03e0fdf8@pop3.lvcm.com>
  <5.1.0.14.0.20011011203505.03e0fdf8@pop3.lvcm.com>
  <5.0.2.1.0.20011012002236.00a8cdd0@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011012072126.038b24d0@frissell@brillig.panix.com>


At 11:29 AM 10/12/01 +0100, Ken Brown wrote:
>As a mere Englishman, I'm not quite sure what "table" means in this
>context. My guess is that it means "put it on the agenda", i.e. fix a
>time to discuss it later, but that doesn't look right here, because you
>are saying that the amendments were rejected.
>
>Ken Brown

One of the great conflicts between English and American.

"Table" means to schedule for debate in British and to dump in American.

Complicated by the fact that we do use the phrase to "put on the table" as 
you Brits do.

DCF




From frissell at panix.com  Fri Oct 12 04:26:00 2001
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 07:26:00 -0400
Subject: Feingold amendment
In-Reply-To: <3BC6C613.A5775A8F@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
References: <20011011235525.A14834@cluebot.com>
  <5.1.0.14.0.20011011203505.03e0fdf8@pop3.lvcm.com>
  <5.1.0.14.0.20011011203505.03e0fdf8@pop3.lvcm.com>
  <5.0.2.1.0.20011012002236.00a8cdd0@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011012072427.038b33e0@frissell@brillig.panix.com>


At 11:29 AM 10/12/01 +0100, you wrote:
>As a mere Englishman, I'm not quite sure what "table" means in this
>context. My guess is that it means "put it on the agenda", i.e. fix a
>time to discuss it later, but that doesn't look right here, because you
>are saying that the amendments were rejected.
>
>Ken Brown


Another example of such confusion would be a request to "knock me up".  Has 
slightly different meanings in the two languages.

DCF




From ravage at ssz.com  Fri Oct 12 05:44:45 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 07:44:45 -0500
Subject: CNN.com - Senate passes anti-terrorism legislation - October 12, 2001
Message-ID: <3BC6E5BD.E0F24CC5@ssz.com>


http://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/10/12/ret.senate.antiterror/index.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at ssz.com  Fri Oct 12 05:47:26 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 07:47:26 -0500
Subject: Slashdot | NAI to Sell Off PGP Product Line
Message-ID: <3BC6E65E.D70880D4@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/10/12/0129228.shtml
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Oct 12 05:52:36 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 07:52:36 -0500
Subject: The Register - Pain in the RSA
Message-ID: <3BC6E794.FF3BBD2D@ssz.com>


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/7/22188.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From mikecabot at fastcircle.com  Fri Oct 12 05:37:32 2001
From: mikecabot at fastcircle.com (mikecabot at fastcircle.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 08:37:32 -0400
Subject: RIAA Safeweb Ping
Message-ID: <200110121239.HAA06966@einstein.ssz.com>


>   main1colo45-core2-oc48.lga2.above.net (216.200.127.174)  (New 
York, NY)

This last one above (216.200.127.174) is a colocated server at 
above.net in NYC.

>From there, using a small piece of IP redirector software that they 
call "Triangle Boy", Safeweb just bounces packets around their 
network.

> 
> About half the pings timed out before the last hop at:
> 
>   208.184.48.173.safeweb.com (San Jose, CA)
> 
> A few hit a "private" address after 208.184.48.173:
> 
>   10.100.0.2 (no location)

Likely just an internal Proxy-less netblock.... this is done often 
for private, non-routable IP addresses within a network. In other 
words, packets route ONLY in the internal network, routers are 
programmed to ignore any packets within such netblocks.


> 
> before ending at:
> 
>   64.124.150.130.safeweb.com (San Jose, CA)
> 
> Interpretation is needed for:
> 
> 1. How much about the Safeweb stations is true and how much 
cloaking.

It's all true until you hit the colocated box. Then it's all cloaking.

> 2. Why some pings timed out and others didn't.

ICMP squelching is why.... you can selectively top ICMP return 
packets from being sent.... often done to protect the "topography" of 
a network. If you can't hear the pings, you can count the servers or 
hops in a network path.

> 3. Phantom station 10.100.0.2

See above... not a phantom, just can't route.

> 4. Whether the San Jose hops actually go to San Jose or are spoofed.

It doesn't really matter..... even if the server is physically in San 
Jose, which I doubt, so what? The end user connecting to that 
specific server could have been anywhere -- in the Hindu Kush 
mountains, for instance :)

> 5. Why go to New York then hop across the continent unless the
> last hops are just administrative not physical.

They are probably not administrative... they exist to basically make 
the lives of anyone tracking a lone packet miserable :) Basically, 
it's just inserted path to hide the origin of the packet.

> 6. How is cloaking done on addresses and physical locations

Email me offline.... I can answer some questions on this, but to 
really understand it you basically have to understand how TCP works. 
But this kind of "cloaking" isn't really cloaking, it's just one 
simple technique partnered with a network that has enough depth to 
make it look like you're bouncing around from one place to another.

I forget the specifics, but there's an old physics problem involving 
a black box and inputs and outputs. That's what you have here..... 
the black box isn't really so big, but because you can't see in it, 
you don't know EXACTLY how big, or more to the point, exactly what is 
in it. That's the idea behind ICMP squelching.

btw, this is really a simple defense; it is somewhat easy to 
overcome, although that doesn't mean that you could actually learn 
anything useful by overcoming it.


> 
> Is cloaking done by a Safeweb program, say by address spoofer or by 
> phantom proxies, or is there a way to do this by special agreement 
> with Network Central (whatever that is), say, as Intel Web and 
other 
> classified systems covertly use the Web.

:) Nothing special at all..... any well-designed network implements 
this right off the bat, to stop the little scripties from following a 
trail of bread crumbs. Safeweb DOES do some (simplistic) IP spoofing 
and "cloaking", but what you see is NOT it....

Mike
_______________________________________________________________________________
WANT YOUR OWN FREE AND SECURE WEB EMAIL ADDRESS?

Visit http://www.fastcircle.com 







From xeni at xeni.net  Fri Oct 12 09:00:44 2001
From: xeni at xeni.net (Xeni Jardin)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 09:00:44 -0700
Subject: Anthrax #4 reported in NYC, NBC employee
Message-ID: 


CNN has reporting that one person at NBC HQ in NYC has been tested
positive for anthrax. Reports say she received a suspicious letter that
tested negative, but she soon tested positive.

XJ




From verba at rol.it  Fri Oct 12 00:21:10 2001
From: verba at rol.it (verba at rol.it)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 09:21:10 +0200
Subject: Verba Volant 11-10-2001
Message-ID: <1002878471@sender-mail2.logos.it>


Verba Volant 11-10-2001,
Every day a new quotation translated into many languages. 

Logos Translations - www.logostranslations.com 
_________________

Quotation of the day:
Author - Manu Chao

English - I am in favour of legalizing all drugs. This is for one reason: I don�t like the mafia
Italian - sono favorevole alla legalizzazione di tutta la droga. Questo per un unica ragione: non mi piace la mafia
Spanish - soy favorable a la legalizaci�n de toda la droga. Por una sola raz�n: no me gusta la mafia
French - le meilleur moyen de lutter contre la mafia ? L�galiser toutes les drogues
Portuguese - sou a favor da legaliza��o de todas as drogas. Por uma �nica raz�o: n�o gosto da M�fia
Brazilian Portuguese - sou a favor da legaliza��o de todas as drogas. Por uma �nica raz�o: n�o gosto da M�fia
German - ich bin f�r die Legalisierung aller Drogen, und zwar aus einem einzigen Grund: Ich habe nichts f�r die Mafia �brig
Hungarian - �n az �sszes drog legaliz�l�sa mellett vagyok. t�bbek k�z�tt ez�rt nem szeretem a maffi�t
Finnish - kannatan kaikkien huumausaineiden laillistamista. Siihen on vain yksi syy: en pid� mafiasta
Catalan - estic a favor de legalitzaci� de tota droga,nom�s per una ra�, no m�agrada la mafia
Croatian - ja sam za legalizaciju droge. Iz jedinog razloga �to mi se ne svi?a mafija
Dutch - ik ben voor de legalisatie van alle drugs. En dit enkel en alleen maar omdat ik het niet voor de maffia heb
Emiliano-Romagnolo - par me la legalisazioun ad tota la drouga la � goudibla; la rasoun la � una soula: la mafia, ma me, la � sgudebla
Latin - omnium medicamentorum comprobationi faveo. Propter hoc unum: mafia mihi non placet
Latvian; Lettish - esmu par visa veida narkotiku legaliz?�anu. Un tam pamat? ir viens iemesls: man nepat?k mafija
Polish - jestem za legalizacj? wszystkich narkotyk�w. I to przez jedyny pow�d: nie lubi? mafi
Romanian - sunt pentru legalizarea tuturor narcoticelor. ?i asta doar dintr-un singur motiv: nu-mi place mafia
Slovak - som za legaliz�ciu v�etk�ch drog. Z jedin�ho d�vodu: nep�?i sa mi mafia
Venetian - so' a favore de legalisare tute le droghe. E questa par 'na sola rason: no' me piase la mafia
Sicilian - sugnu a favuri d' 'a legalizzazioni di tutti i droghi. E chistu pi 'na sula raggiuni: non mi piaci 'a mafia
Flemish - ik ben voor de legalisatie van alle drugs. En dit enkel en alleen maar omdat ik het niet voor de maffia heb
Ferrarese - a son d'acord cola legalizazion ad tut'il drog. Al dig pr'un sol motiv: an am pias brisa la mafia 
_________________

All languages, please click on this link
http://www.rol.it/owa-k/press.frasiproc.carica?code=418
_________________

Let your friends know about this news letter:
give them a subscription to Verba Volant
http://www.rol.it/owa-k/press.rol_ml.verbavolant
_________________

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From piolenc at mozcom.com  Thu Oct 11 18:24:29 2001
From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 09:24:29 +0800
Subject: Absolute anonymity breeds absolute irresponsibility?
References: <200110112054.PAA25922@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3BC6464D.623256AC@mozcom.com>


mikecabot at fastcircle.com wrote:

> "Absolute anonymity breeds absolute irresponsibility," [SUN CEO Scott
> Mcnealy] said. "We need a thumbprint Java card in the hand of
> everybody in the country."

Another boycott target!

Marc de Piolenc





From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Fri Oct 12 09:32:43 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 09:32:43 -0700
Subject: bunkerbuster: not just for nukes
In-Reply-To: <0VGUYFZO53EEMDNKCWOWMAUEXYRP4TVIX2CX4SCS@ziplip.com>; from
  citizenQ@ziplip.com on Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 03:58:36AM -0700
References: <0VGUYFZO53EEMDNKCWOWMAUEXYRP4TVIX2CX4SCS@ziplip.com>
Message-ID: <20011012093243.B9827@navel.introspect>


on Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 03:58:36AM -0700, citizenQ (citizenQ at ziplip.com)
wrote:
> >cpaul writes:
> >
> >> THE US 'ANNOUNCED' THEIR INTENTION TO USE B61-11 BUNKER BUSTERS ON LAST
> >> NIGHT'S NEWS BULLETINS (BUT SOMEHOW FORGOT TO REFER TO THE FACT THAT
THEY
> >> ARE CLASSIFIED AS TACTICAL NUCLEAR WEAPONS)
> >
>
> Confirmation?
>
> >Yes, I noticed this as well.  I wonder how many euphemisms we will now
> >hear for the word "nuclear" until the American public is informed after
> >the fact how wonderfully the weapons have worked.
> >
>
> Possibly confused with this bunker buster:
> Guided Bomb Unit-28 (GBU-28)
> BLU-113 Penetrator
>
> The Guided Bomb Unit-28 (GBU-28) is a special weapon developed for
> penetrating hardened Iraqi command centers located deep underground.
> The GBU-28 is a 5,000-pound laser-guided conventional munition that
> uses a 4,400-pound penetrating warhead. The bombs are modified Army
> artillery tubes, weigh 4,637 pounds, and contain 630 pounds of high
> explosives. They are fitted with GBU-27 LGB kits, 14.5 inches in
> diameter and almost 19 feet long. The operator illuminates a target
> with a laser designator and then the munition guides to a spot of
> laser energy reflected from the target.
>
> Much more likely.  Hard to imagine a scenario where tacnukes would be
> deployed.

That's my read.

Several press articles mentioned the GBU-28, and Rumsfeld mentioned it
(or was asked about it) specifically in a press conference Wednesday or
Thursday (NPR's on continuous-feed mode here).  The only reference I saw
to the B62-11 specific to the current conflict was a Wired article "Nuke
'Em From On High"

    http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,47319,00.html
The device itself is nuclear (not merely a d-u casing, in fact I don't
see d-u mentioned at all), with yields from 300T - 300KT, in a focussed
charge.

Peace.

--
Karsten M. Self         http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?              Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                    Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA!  http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                      http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Fri Oct 12 10:04:25 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 10:04:25 -0700
Subject: House update on anti-terror bills: Look out 
Message-ID: <3BC72299.B14EFEA0@lsil.com>


Declan McCullagh  wrote :
> From a House staffer:
>
>>Friends, less than 20 minutes ago the House leadership announced we would 
>>be considering the Senate bill which has none of the privacy protections 
>>that Bob Barr and others worked to put in the House bill an contains 
>>language attacking financial privacy and even allowing the government 
>>expanded access to educational records. Votes on the rule are expected 
>>soon and killing the rule is the best way to kill this bill.
>
Perfectly understandable actions on the part of our "representatives"
considering that they panicked a month ago and haven't been in their
right minds since - most of them anyway. Feingold and Barr seem to be
more stable than the average bear.

The totally infuriating part is that it will take decades to undo the
damage they're doing in a few short weeks.

Mike




From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Fri Oct 12 10:08:43 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 10:08:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Is Bush Nuking Afghanistan Now?
In-Reply-To: <3BC6DA7E.D73340FD@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> from "Ken Brown" at Oct
  12, 2001 12:56:46 PM
Message-ID: <200110121708.f9CH8hD20063@artifact.psychedelic.net>


Ken Brown writes:

> It is hard to imagine the USA going anywhere near nukes in this war. The
> last thing any sane government would want is to lower the psychological
> threshold against first use of nuclear weapons anywhere in the vicinity
> of China or India. Even if Russia is on board.

Yes, one would think that would be the case.

The B61-11 weighs 1200 lbs and can be delivered by the B-2 bomber and even
by an F-16.

Conventional bunker busters weight 5,000 lbs, and have to be delivered by
structurally modified B-52s.

What is worrysome here is that Bush is a big fan of the B61-11, which is
widely deployed throughout NATO, and the defense department recommended at
the beginning of this conflict that the B61-11 be used.

Anthrax Theatre has opened to rave reviews nationwide, and the Defense
Department considers nuclear retaliation appropriate for any WMD activity.

The US threatened to use nukes in Iraq, but backed down after Yeltsin
grumbled.  Putin is not grumbling over Bush's WarOnTerrorism(tm).

All of this makes the use of nukes in this conflict much more likely.

Here's an interesting article on Bush and the B61-11 which predates the
WTC downing.

http://www.progressive.org/0801issue/mill0801.html

-----

It's a Bomb!
Bush's Baby Nuke
by Alistair Millar

On October 2, 1992, President George Bush signed into law a moratorium on
nuclear testing. Now his son is preparing to end that moratorium.

The current Bush Administration is studying options for the development
and production of a small, low-yield nuclear weapon called an
earth-penetrator or bunker-buster, which would burrow into the ground and
destroy a deeply buried hideaway of a "rogue" leader like Saddam Hussein.

...

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From scott at renfro.org  Fri Oct 12 10:14:43 2001
From: scott at renfro.org (Scott Renfro)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 10:14:43 -0700
Subject: Bunker Buster
In-Reply-To: <311999AFA3B0FB419DBC4C85EF10556E49E1@cyclone.robichaux.loc
  al>; from paul@robichaux.net on Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 11:38:23AM -0500
References: <311999AFA3B0FB419DBC4C85EF10556E49E1@cyclone.robichaux.loca
  l>
Message-ID: <20011012101443.B19784@bonsai.home.renfro.org>


On Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 11:38:23AM -0500, Paul E. Robichaux wrote:
> 
> The GBU-28 is basically a 155mm artillery barrel packed full of explosives.
> Well, OK, not really, but that's what the first set of GBU-28s used in Gulf
> War I were. Slap some guidance fins and a standard LGB kit on it, and voila!

Actually, the tubes were from decommissioned M110A2 8-inch howitzers
(203mm) cut down to 19 feet in length (just in case anyone's estimating
yield at home, the 8-inch tube gives about 70% more volume than 155mm --
about a cubic yard).




From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Fri Oct 12 10:18:45 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 10:18:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Anthrax #4 reported in NYC, NBC employee
In-Reply-To:  from "Xeni
  Jardin" at Oct 12, 2001 09:00:44 AM
Message-ID: <200110121718.f9CHIjf20125@artifact.psychedelic.net>


Xeni Jardin writes:

> CNN has reporting that one person at NBC HQ in NYC has been tested
> positive for anthrax. Reports say she received a suspicious letter that
> tested negative, but she soon tested positive.

We've never done mass anthrax testing before.  There is no control group.

We don't know the environmental incidence of the spores, which like
tetanus and botulism are ubiquitous.

Bush needs a justification to use his spiffy new B61-11s in the great and
noble Crusade against World Evil, Starring George W. Bush.

Draw your own conclusions as to the accuracy of the tiny number of
purported anthrax cases now sucking up 90% of the news coverage.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From dbob at semtex.com  Fri Oct 12 10:24:39 2001
From: dbob at semtex.com (Dynamite Bob)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 10:24:39 -0700
Subject: Govt not accountable: Jewell libel suit against FBI denied
Message-ID: <3BC72757.7232B9CF@semtex.com>


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20011011/aponline055635_000.htm

Court Upholds Ruling in Jewell
               Suit 

               The Associated Press
               Thursday, Oct. 11, 2001; 5:56 a.m. EDT

               ATLANTA  The state Court of Appeals has upheld a
               judge's ruling that Richard Jewell was a public figure
               when a newspaper identified him as a suspect in the
               1996 bombing at Centennial Olympic Park. 

               The decision Wednesday was a setback for Jewell, who
               filed a libel suit against The Atlanta
               Journal-Constitution after the FBI cleared him of
               wrongdoing three months after the bombing. 

               The appeals court also threw out a lower court's order
               that reporters for the Journal-Constitution must identify
               their sources of information about Jewell. 

               Jewell, who was working as a park security guard
               during the 1996 Olympics, spotted the backpack that
               held the bomb that exploded on July 27, 1996, killing
               one woman and injuring 111 people. 

               While he was initially hailed as a hero for helping
               evacuate the park, he was later investigated by the FBI
               and identified as a suspect by the newspaper. The
               Justice Department cleared him three months later. 

               Jewell's lawyer, Lin Wood, said he would ask the
               Georgia Supreme Court and, if necessary, the U.S.
               Supreme Court to hear the case. 

               Jewell has settled similar lawsuits against ABC, NBC,
               CNN and Piedmont College, his former employer.




From anonymous at remailer.havenco.com  Fri Oct 12 03:46:50 2001
From: anonymous at remailer.havenco.com (Anonymous User)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 10:46:50 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Osama is Jesus
Message-ID: <2d727bff0e7976aaf2121eb93553ea9b@remailer.havenco.com>


the antichrist will not be thought as evil (by the world-community)
but a great helper. He will come up with solutions.
Actually that is not the A.C. but one that will introduce
him. 
Glory
--
"your low-tech cold feet provider"

 
..




From proff at iq.org  Thu Oct 11 18:05:47 2001
From: proff at iq.org (Julian Assange)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:05:47 +1000 (EST)
Subject: fas.org removed from google cache
In-Reply-To: <200110120035.UAA25477@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20011012010547.6978E259F6@suburbia.net>


FAS falls.

fas.org's Project on Government Secrecy, has not only pulled 200
documents from it's web-site (including crude NSA HQ maps),
but has apparently lobbied Google to remove fas, in its entireity,
from the Google cache. FAS and Aftergood have now fallen to the
trolls. Long cherished thorns in the US intelligence oligarchy's
backside, PGS has become an oxymoron.

--
 Julian Assange        |If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people
                       |together to collect wood or assign them tasks and
 proff at iq.org          |work, but rather teach them to long for the endless
 proff at gnu.ai.mit.edu  |immensity of the sea. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Fri Oct 12 03:29:39 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:29:39 +0100
Subject: Feingold amendment
References: <20011011235525.A14834@cluebot.com>
  <5.1.0.14.0.20011011203505.03e0fdf8@pop3.lvcm.com>
  <5.1.0.14.0.20011011203505.03e0fdf8@pop3.lvcm.com>
  <5.0.2.1.0.20011012002236.00a8cdd0@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <3BC6C613.A5775A8F@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


As a mere Englishman, I'm not quite sure what "table" means in this
context. My guess is that it means "put it on the agenda", i.e. fix a
time to discuss it later, but that doesn't look right here, because you
are saying that the amendments were rejected. 

Ken Brown

Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> At 09:20 PM 10/11/01 -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
> >Ah, I tuned in late and only caught the last one.
> 
> Yeah. The sequence went as follows, starting at 9 pm:
> 1. Feingold introduced amendment to the USA Act
> 2. Feingold, Wellstone, Cantwell spoke in favor of it
> 3. Just about everyone else led by Hatch, Leahy, Daschle opposed it
> 4. Daschle moved to table
> 5. Everyone voted to table
> 6. Goto Line 1
> 
> The votes were:
> 83-13 to table the trespasser snooping amendment
> 90-7 to table roving wiretap limits
> 89-8 to table subpoena limits
> 
> Feingold did a reasonable enough job, but he did wimp out and not introduce
> the "secret search ban" amendment. Would have been good to have some debate
> on that. Debate ended around midnight.
> 
> -Declan




From rsw at mit.edu  Fri Oct 12 08:36:05 2001
From: rsw at mit.edu (Riad S. Wahby)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:36:05 -0400
Subject: Feingold amendment
In-Reply-To: ; from tolan@citipages.net on Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 01:23:21PM +0100
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011012072427.038b33e0@frissell@brillig.panix.com> 
Message-ID: <20011012113605.D8242@positron.mit.edu>

Tolan Blundell  wrote:
> >Another example of such confusion would be a request to "knock me up".  Has
> >slightly different meanings in the two languages.
> 
> what does it mean in American English?

"to knock up" == "to make pregnant"

--
Riad Wahby
rsw at mit.edu
MIT VI-2/A 2002




From paul at robichaux.net  Fri Oct 12 09:38:23 2001
From: paul at robichaux.net (Paul E. Robichaux)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:38:23 -0500
Subject: Bunker Buster
Message-ID: <311999AFA3B0FB419DBC4C85EF10556E49E1@cyclone.robichaux.local>


Someone's conflated the B61-11 with the GBU-28.

The B61-11, referred to in the FAS article, is an air-delivered tactical
nuclear weapon with selectable yield. Getting it 15ft underground would
probably do the trick.

The GBU-28 is basically a 155mm artillery barrel packed full of explosives.
Well, OK, not really, but that's what the first set of GBU-28s used in Gulf
War I were. Slap some guidance fins and a standard LGB kit on it, and voila!
The hardened steel of the barrel makes for a dandy ground penetrator.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ken Brown [mailto:k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk] 
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 6:37 AM
> To: cypherpunks at lne.com
> Subject: Re: Bunker Buster
> 
> 
> Max Inux wrote:
> > 
> > These things are TOUGH MOTHER FUCKER that go big boom.
> > 
> > -Max
> > 
> > http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/bomber/n19980326_980417.html
>  
> [...]
> 
> > A team excavated the two unexploded dummy bombs and took careful 
> > measurements of their angles and depth of penetration into 
> the soil, 
> > which were 6 and 10 feet,
> 
> If those figures are true (If I had a new weapon I wouldn't 
> publish exact details of its capabilities) then it achieves 
> rather less penetration than Barnes Wallis's tallboy bombs of 
> 1944 (one of which sank the Tirpitz).  
> 
> If they use these things they'll surely  use them as simple 
> deep penetration bombs? The "nuclear" part of it, if any, 
> will be the depleted uranium inner casing, presumably a way 
> of making it smaller. Penetration of any bunker the Taliban 
> are likely to have with such a bomb will destroy it anyway, 
> and putting a exploding nuke in will just kill the sheep on 
> the surrounding hillsides. We're not talking about Cheyenne 
> Mountain here. 
> 
> The old WW2 deep penetration bombs were huge things with 
> fins, like a cartoon bomb in a comic
> (http://www.computing.dundee.ac.uk/staff/irmurray/pictures/617
bombs.jpg)
The larger 1945 version of the Tallboy, called the Grand Slam, supposedly
penetrated over 7 metres of concrete when used in action - but it did weigh
ten tons & hit the ground at twice the speed of sound. Apparently the shock
of the impact did as much damage as the explosion, causing structures to
break up up to hundreds of metres away, literally an "earthquake bomb".

Of course it is always possible that Dr. Strangelove is still in the employ
of the US military and that some insane looney  with a grudge against sheep
does want to use nukes. Sensible arguments about the idiocy of developing new
exploding nukes can be found all over the web - the first google hit on
B61-11 is 
http://www.brook.edu/FP/PROJECTS/NUCWCOST/lasg.htm and worth reading. FAS, as
always, has heaps of stuff.

Ken Brown




From declan at well.com  Fri Oct 12 08:38:43 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:38:43 -0400
Subject: House update on anti-terror bills: Look out
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20011012113820.00a91270@mail.well.com>


 From a House staffer:

>Friends, less than 20 minutes ago the House leadership announced we would 
>be considering the Senate bill which has none of the privacy protections 
>that Bob Barr and others worked to put in the House bill an contains 
>language attacking financial privacy and even allowing the government 
>expanded access to educational records. Votes on the rule are expected 
>soon and killing the rule is the best way to kill this bill.




From dbob at semtex.com  Fri Oct 12 11:47:46 2001
From: dbob at semtex.com (Dynamite Bob)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:47:46 -0700
Subject: some good news: fed disarmer shot dead
Message-ID: <3BC73AD2.E27DF36@semtex.com>


http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAT6R3AQSC.html

Federal Prosecutor, a 
        Prominent Gun-Control 
      Advocate, Shot to Death in 
             Seattle Home
      By Peggy AndersenAssociated Press Writer

                Published: Oct 12, 2001
     SEATTLE (AP) - A federal prosecutor who headed a 
 prominent gun control group in his spare time was shot in his home 
 and died early Friday.

 Thomas C. Wales, 49, died about 1:15 a.m. Friday at Harborview 
 Medical Center. He had been shot in the neck and the side late 
 Thursday, a hospital spokeswoman said.

 Details about the shooting were sketchy. No arrests had been made, 
 police spokesman Mark Jamieson said.

 Wales was a member of the fraud unit in the U.S. attorney's office 
 here, specializing in prosecution of banking and business crime, 
 spokesman Lawrence Lincoln said.

 He also was board president of Seattle-based Washington 
 Ceasefire, a gun-control group.

 "The death of Tom Wales is a terrible loss to our movement," said a 
 statement from Michael T. Barnes, president of the Washington, 
 D.C.-based Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence. "Although we 
 do not yet know the motives for the shooting, we are angered by the 
 murder of this true visionary."

 Federal agencies were assisting Seattle police in the investigation. 
 Officials with the FBI and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and 
 Firearms declined to comment.

 According to The Seattle Times, neighbors in the wealthy Queen 
 Anne Hill neighborhood reported hearing shots shortly before 11 
 p.m. Thursday.

 Neighbor Tom Olsby said Wales' wife, Elizabeth, a former Seattle 
 School Board member, was away visiting family in New England.

 On Sept. 30, Washington Ceasefire planted thousands of daffodils in 
 a popular city park in remembrance of people who had died from 
 gun violence.




From sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 12 12:23:36 2001
From: sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com (sonofgomez709)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 12:23:36 -0700
Subject: some good news: fed disarmer shot dead 
Message-ID: <001001c15353$659f1540$490da2cd@vaio>

  a.. From: Dynamite Bob  
  b.. Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:47:46 -0700 
  c.. Old-Subject: some good news: fed disarmer shot dead 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAT6R3AQSC.htmlFederal Prosecutor, a 
        Prominent Gun-Control       Advocate, Shot to Death in 
             Seattle Home      By Peggy AndersenAssociated Press Writer
                Published: Oct 12, 2001
     SEATTLE (AP) - A federal prosecutor who headed a 
 prominent gun control group in his spare time was shot in his home 
 and died early Friday.

When this happened, I was with Dynamite Bob, eh?
No...REALLY....

CJ Parker 
http://profiles.yahoo.com/sonofgomez709
http://www.technopagan.org/politics/xenix/
http://members.w-link.net/~sog/INDEX.HTM
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From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Thu Oct 11 19:33:22 2001
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 12:33:22 +1000
Subject: B61-11
Message-ID: 

THE US 'ANNOUNCED' THEIR INTENTION TO USE B61-11 BUNKER BUSTERS ON LAST
NIGHT'S NEWS BULLETINS (BUT SOMEHOW FORGOT TO REFER TO THE FACT THAT THEY
ARE CLASSIFIED AS TACTICAL NUCLEAR WEAPONS)


2:00 a.m. Oct. 8, 2001 PDT
Following the Sept. 11 attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon,
Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld was questioned on ABC television's This
Week program about the possible use of tactical nuclear weapons in the
expected conflicts to come. 

In practiced Pentagonese, Rumsfeld deftly avoided answering the question
of whether the use of tactical nuclear weapons could be ruled out. 

Though large "theater" thermonuclear devices -- doomsday bombs -- don't
fit the Bush administration's war on terrorism, smaller tactical nukes do
not seem out of the question in the current mindset of the Defense
Department. 

The most likely candidate is a tactical micro-nuke called the B61-11, an
earth-penetrating nuclear device known as the "bunker buster." 

The B61-11 was designed to destroy underground military facilities such as
command bunkers, ballistic missile silos and facilities for producing and
storing weapons.





From sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 12 12:36:48 2001
From: sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com (sonofgomez709)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 12:36:48 -0700
Subject: !!!KILL!!!Filing Jim Choate...
Message-ID: <001b01c15355$3da47c40$490da2cd@vaio>

Look on the bright side, even if you KILL (So2Speak) Jim, you will
still be able to receive all of the email that he SecretlySends to
the CPX Disturbed Male LISP.
e.g.
-"I went to a party and passed out, and woke up with these two
guys doing me." 
-"Increase Your BustSize *and* Your Penis Size Using Your
CypherPunks Secret DeCoder Ring!"
-"FREE PICTURED 20818"
-"Hi. My Name Is Toto..."

AnonyMouse #05987-196
CJ Parker 
http://profiles.yahoo.com/sonofgomez709
http://www.technopagan.org/politics/xenix/
http://members.w-link.net/~sog/INDEX.HTM
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From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Fri Oct 12 04:37:26 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 12:37:26 +0100
Subject: Bunker Buster
References: <20011012010217.A6176@spheno.jokeslayer.com>
Message-ID: <3BC6D5F5.7151B79C@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Max Inux wrote:
> 
> These things are TOUGH MOTHER FUCKER that go big boom.
> 
> -Max
> 
> http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/bomber/n19980326_980417.html
 
[...]

> A team excavated the two unexploded dummy bombs and took careful
> measurements of their angles and depth of penetration into the soil, which
> were 6 and 10 feet,

If those figures are true (If I had a new weapon I wouldn't publish
exact details of its capabilities) then it achieves rather less
penetration than Barnes Wallis's tallboy bombs of 1944 (one of which
sank the Tirpitz).  

If they use these things they'll surely  use them as simple deep
penetration bombs? The "nuclear" part of it, if any, will be the
depleted uranium inner casing, presumably a way of making it smaller.
Penetration of any bunker the Taliban are likely to have with such a
bomb will destroy it anyway, and putting a exploding nuke in will just
kill the sheep on the surrounding hillsides. We're not talking about
Cheyenne Mountain here. 

The old WW2 deep penetration bombs were huge things with fins, like a
cartoon bomb in a comic
(http://www.computing.dundee.ac.uk/staff/irmurray/pictures/617bombs.jpg)
The larger 1945 version of the Tallboy, called the Grand Slam,
supposedly penetrated over 7 metres of concrete when used in action -
but it did weigh ten tons & hit the ground at twice the speed of sound.
Apparently the shock of the impact did as much damage as the explosion,
causing structures to break up up to hundreds of metres away, literally
an "earthquake bomb".

Of course it is always possible that Dr. Strangelove is still in the
employ of the US military and that some insane looney  with a grudge
against sheep does want to use nukes. Sensible arguments about the
idiocy of developing new exploding nukes can be found all over the web -
the first google hit on B61-11 is 
http://www.brook.edu/FP/PROJECTS/NUCWCOST/lasg.htm and worth reading.
FAS, as always, has heaps of stuff.

Ken Brown




From inc at fastmedia.net  Fri Oct 12 15:39:51 2001
From: inc at fastmedia.net (cpaul)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 12:39:51 -1000
Subject: bush wheels out the nukes
Message-ID: <20011012123951.442ca7c5.inc@fastmedia.net>




Begin forwarded message:


From mmotyka at lsil.com  Fri Oct 12 12:41:06 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 12:41:06 -0700
Subject: Now I get it!
Message-ID: <3BC74752.DF8BB782@lsil.com>


When our "representatives" took an oath to uphold and protect the
Constitution and the Bill of Rights they thought it meant the actual
parchment. I'm sure all copies are safely stored away in guarded
bunkers. A job well done!




From sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 12 12:43:03 2001
From: sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com (sonofgomez709)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 12:43:03 -0700
Subject: What color are anthrax spores anyway?
Message-ID: <002401c15356$1cd99940$490da2cd@vaio>

> Subject: CDR: Re: What color are anthrax spores anyway? 

Just a minute...I'll check in the ShoeBox under the bed and
get back to you...

CJ Parker 
http://profiles.yahoo.com/sonofgomez709
http://www.technopagan.org/politics/xenix/
http://members.w-link.net/~sog/INDEX.HTM
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From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Oct 12 12:43:26 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 12:43:26 -0700
Subject: Anthrax #4 reported in NYC, NBC employee
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <200110121649.MAA22768@granger.mail.mindspring.net>


No shit. Survey says most doctors and clinics are incapable of
diagnosing Anthrax infection. How long the buggers have been
around cannot be determined. But diagnoses will surely rise
as medical staff gear up for the threat, along with false positives,
alarms, backtracks, and all the learning curve stuff.

Did DefSec Bill Cohen survive his innoculation against Anthrax?
Was it a real shot or a specially protected plane ride to show the
American people courage of their leaders.

If you think you've never been infected with Anthrax take the
high profile test, soon to be available on the street corner.
MSNBC fercrhissakes competing with the supermarket
tabloids, as if hoaxing a Declone.

But don't expect more peephole toilets for lesbos or 
Ricans to stop pissing on your 5th Avenue rosebeds.







At 09:00 AM 10/12/01 -0700, you wrote:
>CNN has reporting that one person at NBC HQ in NYC has been tested
>positive for anthrax. Reports say she received a suspicious letter that
>tested negative, but she soon tested positive.
>
>XJ




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Fri Oct 12 12:51:18 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 12:51:18 -0700
Subject: NPR Story Yesterday
Message-ID: <3BC749B6.6EB5B570@lsil.com>


A writer for the Voice ( if I heard it correctly ) talked about a
computer captured in Manila that was supposedly used by Ramzi Yousef. He
said that there were documents that described hijacking planes and
flying them into prominent buildings.

This information was turned over to the FBI in 1995 or 1996.

I hope with expanded powers for surveillance and searches that they can
gather better information and shorten the analysis period.




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Fri Oct 12 12:51:18 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 12:51:18 -0700
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: 

A writer for the Voice ( if I heard it correctly ) talked about a
computer captured in Manila that was supposedly used by Ramzi Yousef. He
said that there were documents that described hijacking planes and
flying them into prominent buildings.

This information was turned over to the FBI in 1995 or 1996.

I hope with expanded powers for surveillance and searches that they can
gather better information and shorten the analysis period.
-----------

Let's see...
THEY [TM] use ECHELON to listen to every electronic message in
the history of the world...
THEY [TM] have apparently already had advance information about
all of the UnForSeen Tragedies that have occurred lately...
THEY [TM] have failed to protect US&OR&U.S. from known threats,
known enemies, known terrorist plans, yet they are using Their
failure to do so as an excuse for needing to exercise even more
intrusion into our privacy and constitutional rights...

Next thing you know, THEY [TM] will be telling us they need to
raise taxes, because they wasted the money we already gave
them...or has this already happened? (I've been...uuhhh..away...)

CJ Parker 
http://profiles.yahoo.com/sonofgomez709
http://www.technopagan.org/politics/xenix/
http://members.w-link.net/~sog/INDEX.HTM




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Fri Oct 12 04:56:46 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 12:56:46 +0100
Subject: Is Bush Nuking Afghanistan Now?
References: <200110120445.f9C4jtU19627@artifact.psychedelic.net>
Message-ID: <3BC6DA7E.D73340FD@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Eric Cordian wrote:
> 
> cpaul writes:
> 
> > THE US 'ANNOUNCED' THEIR INTENTION TO USE B61-11 BUNKER BUSTERS ON LAST
> > NIGHT'S NEWS BULLETINS (BUT SOMEHOW FORGOT TO REFER TO THE FACT THAT THEY
> > ARE CLASSIFIED AS TACTICAL NUCLEAR WEAPONS)
> 
> Yes, I noticed this as well.  I wonder how many euphemisms we will now
> hear for the word "nuclear" until the American public is informed after
> the fact how wonderfully the weapons have worked.
> 
> Such games require quite a bit of collusion on the part of our supposedly
> free and independent press.  One wonders what would happen to the press
> credentials of a reporter who said - "Scuse me, Ari.  Are those the
> nuclear bunker busters we're talking about?"
> 
> I don't know if it's related, but there were reports earlier today that
> people were reporting seeing bright flashes of light and fireballs in the
> direction of Afghanistan.

It is hard to imagine the USA going anywhere near nukes in this war. The
last thing any sane government would want is to lower the psychological
threshold against first use of nuclear weapons anywhere in the vicinity
of China or India. Even if Russia is on board.

There has been speculation about a possible future Islamist Pakistan
using nuclear weapons, and the US maybe trying to pre-empt that, but I
don't think that is likely either. 

If someone took over Pakistan & actually used their nukes against India,
I  suspect that the Indian military would roll over the country in 2
weeks flat. If not one week. India would probably have total support
from the US navy & airforce, & certainly from the British, if only
because the USA would desperately want to make sure that they got to
Islamabad before the Chinese did.  A month after the war you'd have a 
theoretically UN but in practice Indian  hegemony over what was left of
Pakistan. 

There would be  millions of Muslims expelled from Kashmir (& possibly
Gujarat and other provinces as well), and a supposed disarmament and
permanent occupation of the North-West Frontier districts probably
including the Panshir valley & parts of what would by then be
ex-Afghanistan as well. Chances are that the entire west of Pakistan and
the south of Afghanistan would have been hived off into an
semi-independent Baluchistan as a client state of Iran, which would
probably have retaken Herat while no-one was looking. Islamabad would be
all but dismantled and the rump of Pakistan ruled from Karachi, within
easy reach of the aircraft carriers.

Once upon a time that might have sparked off the 3rd world war with
Russia and the USA taking different sides in a war between India and
China. These days, I suspect they would all be in it together. A
Pakistan that had actually used its nuclear weapons would be  the 21st
century equivalent of Bolivia or Paraguay in the 19th.

And yes, it would be the final nail in the coffin of the Taliban and OBL
- but at the expense of hundreds of thousands dead, if not millions. And
no, it isn't worth it.

Those nuclear weapons are useful to Pakistan only as long as they
aren't  used (the military equivalent of the British monarchy if you
think about  it). As soon as they are used, because there aren't enough
of them to  destroy Pakistan's enemies - which in this case would be
India *and* China  *and*  Russia *and* Iran, none of which Pakistan
would have the slightest 
hope of beating - it would all be up for Pakistan as an independent 
country.  So what if you totally wiped out Delhi and Bombay. That just
means that the other 900 million Indians would be very, very, angry
indeed. And the rest of the world would be too shocked to stop them
fighting back, even if they wanted to. Pakistan's nukes are intended as
a deterrent against an Indian invasion. Once they are used, there is
nothing to stop such an invasion (if the Indians wanted to do it of
course, which right now they don't)

But the whole situation is, as diplomats used to say, delicate. For the
USA to use nukes first would possibly mess things up a lot.

Of course I am assuming that the rulers of the USA and India are sane.
Not very sane, but a little sane.

Ken Brown




From declan at well.com  Fri Oct 12 10:08:23 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 13:08:23 -0400
Subject: FC: Update on anti-terror bill: House about to vote on a *new* bill
Message-ID: 

Here's what's happening right now (turn on CSPAN):

1. The House Judiciary committee approved the "PATRIOT Act" 36-0, with a 
two-year expiration date for wiretapping:
http://www.politechbot.com/p-02614.html

2. The Senate voted last night 96-1 for the USA Act without Sen. Feingold's 
privacy amendments:
http://www.politechbot.com/p-02651.html

3. The House Rules committee met early this morning to set a rule that 
specified what bill would go to the floor:
http://www.house.gov/rules/107rule2975.htm

4. According to the speaker's office, the bill is the "base Senate text" of 
the USA Act with five or six changes that Rep. Conyers had wanted. One of 
those is that the wiretap sections expire in December 2004 -- unless the 
president decides it is in the "national interest" to continue them, which 
would expire them in December 2006.

4. The House voted 211-205 midday today (along party lines) on a 
preliminary procedural step allowing the bill to be considered.

5. Now they're about to vote on the rule. The rule does not allow 
amendments, just provides for an up-or-down vote on the USA Act v2.0. CSPAN 
is carrying this debate.

5. When the House approves the USA Act v2.0 -- I say "when" because I think 
it's very likely -- it'll be sent back to the Senate for approval. Because 
the changes (besides the expiration date) are minor, the Senate may vote 
for it unchanged and send it to the president, something Rep. Senenbrenner 
predicts will happen.

6. That means no conference committee is necessary.

7. You can find the USA Act v2.0 here:
http://www.house.gov/rules/sensen_028.pdf (525 KB)
http://www.well.com/user/declan/sep11/usa.act.v2.0.101201.pdf (a mirror site)

-Declan 




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----- End forwarded message -----




From jet at spies.com  Fri Oct 12 13:11:29 2001
From: jet at spies.com (j eric townsend)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 13:11:29 -0700
Subject: cite, please? Re: bush wheels out the nukes
In-Reply-To: <20011012123951.442ca7c5.inc@fastmedia.net>
References: <20011012123951.442ca7c5.inc@fastmedia.net>
Message-ID: 


>Begin forwarded message:
>
>Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 12:33:22 +1000
>Subject: B61-11
>
>THE US 'ANNOUNCED' THEIR INTENTION TO USE B61-11 BUNKER BUSTERS ON LAST
>NIGHT'S NEWS BULLETINS (BUT SOMEHOW FORGOT TO REFER TO THE FACT THAT THEY
>ARE CLASSIFIED AS TACTICAL NUCLEAR WEAPONS)

I can't find any specific statement anyone made that the B61-11 
weapons are being deployed.  I can find lots of mention of the GBU-28 
being used. Pointers, please, to specific mentions of the B61-11
  being deployed?

-- 
J. Eric Townsend -- http://www.spies.com/jet

Were you in USASSG/ACSI/MACV in Vietnam, 1967-1970?  Drop me a line if so...




From declan at well.com  Fri Oct 12 10:15:13 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 13:15:13 -0400
Subject: Update on anti-terror bill: House about to vote on a *new* bill
Message-ID: <20011012131512.A26997@cluebot.com>


----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh  -----


From tolan at citipages.net  Fri Oct 12 05:23:21 2001
From: tolan at citipages.net (Tolan Blundell)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 13:23:21 +0100
Subject: Feingold amendment
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011012072427.038b33e0@frissell@brillig.panix.com>
Message-ID: 



>>As a mere Englishman, I'm not quite sure what "table" means in this
>>context. My guess is that it means "put it on the agenda", i.e. fix a
>>time to discuss it later, but that doesn't look right here, because you
>>are saying that the amendments were rejected.
>>
>>Ken Brown


>Another example of such confusion would be a request to "knock me up".  Has
>slightly different meanings in the two languages.

what does it mean in American English?

t.




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Fri Oct 12 10:26:08 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 13:26:08 -0400
Subject: House update on anti-terror bills: Look out
References: <3BC72299.B14EFEA0@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <3BC727B0.65D347AC@acmenet.net>


mmotyka at lsil.com wrote:

> Perfectly understandable actions on the part of our "representatives"
> considering that they panicked a month ago and haven't been in their
> right minds since - most of them anyway. Feingold and Barr seem to be
> more stable than the average bear.

Throw Ron Paul into that select group, too. He's pretty reliable in
supporting liberties for the common swine. Some of his recently-proposed
legislation seems pervertible by sufficiently motivated agencies, but it
isn't a blatant power grab.


> The totally infuriating part is that it will take decades to undo the
> damage they're doing in a few short weeks.

If you view it as damage. A fair number of our elected and appointed
officials seem to view it as opportunity.


-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From auto301094 at hushmail.com  Fri Oct 12 13:32:17 2001
From: auto301094 at hushmail.com (auto301094 at hushmail.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 13:32:17 -0700
Subject: OT: cypherpunks and cerebral narcisissm
Message-ID: <200110122032.f9CKWHm07236@mailserver1.hushmail.com>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
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Type: application/pgp
Size: 9676 bytes
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URL: 

From sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 12 13:42:59 2001
From: sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com (sonofgomez709)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 13:42:59 -0700
Subject: NPR Story Yesterday 
Message-ID: <009601c1535e$7c0de080$490da2cd@vaio>



From morten at hotpost.dk  Fri Oct 12 04:44:49 2001
From: morten at hotpost.dk (Morten Liebach)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 13:44:49 +0200
Subject: Osama is Jesus
In-Reply-To: <20011012012345.37285.qmail@web10206.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <075fc4ad9e579f1b3cbf890698f76d72@dizum.com>
  <20011012012345.37285.qmail@web10206.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20011012134449.A30437@hotpost.dk>


On 11, Oct, 2001 at 06:23:45PM -0700, D B wrote:
> I thought the coming of Christ was to be preceded by
> the Anti-christ. Wouldn't that make Osama him? Or, do
> you think someone else is noteworthy enough to wear
> that crown?

He can't be a new Islamic prophet, as Mohammad was the last prophet, and
all prophets after him are false.

Or so I read some years ago in a book by some mullah.

I think Osama seen as the anti-Christ is nice. :-)

HAND
		Morten
 
-- 
Morten Liebach 
PGP-key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xD796A4EB
https://pc89225.stofanet.dk/ || http://pc89225.stofanet.dk/




From xeni at xeni.net  Fri Oct 12 13:50:08 2001
From: xeni at xeni.net (Xeni Jardin)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 13:50:08 -0700
Subject: Possible anthrax-gram sent to J.Miller, GERMS author, NYT
  scribe
Message-ID: 


<>

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/12/national/12CND-ANTH.html




From citizenq at hushmail.com  Fri Oct 12 13:57:46 2001
From: citizenq at hushmail.com (citizenq at hushmail.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 13:57:46 -0700
Subject: Wired predicts use of Nukes
Message-ID: <200110122057.f9CKvkW11873@mailserver1.hushmail.com>


You're like so duh.
This is confirmation, corroboration?

Rumsfeld naturally neither confirms nor denies what USG will opr will not do in the future but responds using standard operating procedure for a stupid question like that.

1) "Why, yes we have seriously considered tactical nuclear weapons" = worldwide political shitstorm.  

2) "No we have ruled out tactical nuclear weapons" = tallybinladen relaxation pill.

Big Smart Wired Writer of course jumps to the typically Wired Balanced Journalism conclusion that this perfectly reasonably evasiveness probably means the B61-11.

Go back to preschool, or playing Nintendo or whatever you kids do.

http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,47319,00.html

>From: cpaul 
>To: cypherpunks at lne.com
>X-Orig-To: cypherpunks at EINSTEIN.ssz.com
>Subject: bush wheels out the nukes
>Begin forwarded message:
>
>Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 12:33:22 +1000
>Subject: B61-11
>
>THE US 'ANNOUNCED' THEIR INTENTION TO USE B61-11 BUNKER BUSTERS ON LAST
>NIGHT'S NEWS BULLETINS (BUT SOMEHOW FORGOT TO REFER TO THE FACT THAT THEY
>ARE CLASSIFIED AS TACTICAL NUCLEAR WEAPONS)
>
>
>2:00 a.m. Oct. 8, 2001 PDT
>Following the Sept. 11 attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon,
>Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld was questioned on ABC television's This
>Week program about the possible use of tactical nuclear weapons in the
>expected conflicts to come. 
>
>In practiced Pentagonese, Rumsfeld deftly avoided answering the question
>of whether the use of tactical nuclear weapons could be ruled out. 
>
>Though large "theater" thermonuclear devices -- doomsday bombs -- don't
>fit the Bush administration's war on terrorism, smaller tactical nukes do
>not seem out of the question in the current mindset of the Defense
>Department. 
>
>The most likely candidate is a tactical micro-nuke called the B61-11, an
>earth-penetrating nuclear device known as the "bunker buster." 
>
>The B61-11 was designed to destroy underground military facilities such as
>command bunkers, ballistic missile silos and facilities for producing and
>storing weapons.




From Craigp at gacallied.com  Fri Oct 12 14:01:57 2001
From: Craigp at gacallied.com (Craig Pearson)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 14:01:57 -0700
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <44D67BBE3424D311B7D500A0C9B3BC5088BA1C@SEA_MAIN>

# Mail sent to leave-primetime-181856v was converted to these commands: 
unsubscribe primetime cypherpunks at toad.com confirm
end

# This is the text of the message that triggered the action:


From Craigp at gacallied.com  Fri Oct 12 14:01:57 2001
From: Craigp at gacallied.com (Craig Pearson)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 14:01:57 -0700
Subject: Unsubcribe
Message-ID: <44D67BBE3424D311B7D500A0C9B3BC5088BA1C@SEA_MAIN>






From citizenq at hushmail.com  Fri Oct 12 14:06:43 2001
From: citizenq at hushmail.com (citizenq at hushmail.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 14:06:43 -0700
Subject: FBI myopia == crypto/steganography?
Message-ID: <200110122106.f9CL6hb13224@mailserver1.hushmail.com>


Perhaps just more evidence that the problem has been enough meat-based intelligence to understand the shit that's just sitting around in plain sight.

The biggest contribution to the disaster of 9/11 was "Intelligence" ineptness, and the 2nd biggest threat to this country is "Intelligence" blaming it on our 'freedom' (disintegrating though it may be.)

>To: cypherpunks at lne.com
>Subject: NPR Story Yesterday
>
>A writer for the Voice ( if I heard it correctly ) talked about a
>computer captured in Manila that was supposedly used by Ramzi Yousef. He
>said that there were documents that described hijacking planes and
>flying them into prominent buildings.
>
>This information was turned over to the FBI in 1995 or 1996.
>
>I hope with expanded powers for surveillance and searches that they can
>gather better information and shorten the analysis period.




From frissell at panix.com  Fri Oct 12 11:17:04 2001
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 14:17:04 -0400
Subject: Feingold amendment
In-Reply-To: <20011012113605.D8242@positron.mit.edu>
References: 
 <5.1.0.14.2.20011012072427.038b33e0@frissell@brillig.panix.c om>
 
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011012141328.04ee5bf0@brillig.panix.com>


At 11:36 AM 10/12/01 -0400, Riad S. Wahby wrote:
>Tolan Blundell  wrote:
> > >Another example of such confusion would be a request to "knock me 
> up".  Has
> > >slightly different meanings in the two languages.
> >
> > what does it mean in American English?
>
>"to knock up" == "to make pregnant"
>
>--
>Riad Wahby
>rsw at mit.edu
>MIT VI-2/A 2002

And of course in British "Knock me up at 7:00" means "Wake me up at 7:00".

DCF
----
For all we have and are
For all our children's sake
Stand up and take the war
The Hun is at the gate
   -- Rudyard, of course




From lyris at offers.lte.net  Fri Oct 12 14:22:49 2001
From: lyris at offers.lte.net (Lyris List Manager)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 14:22:49 -0700
Subject: your unsubscribe request
Message-ID: 


As you requested, you have been unsubscribed from 'primetime'.

---


From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org  Fri Oct 12 11:39:02 2001
From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 14:39:02 -0400
Subject: House update on anti-terror bills: Look out
References: <3BC72299.B14EFEA0@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <3BC738C6.2000906@dragonsweb.org>


mmotyka at lsil.com wrote:

> Declan McCullagh  wrote :
> 
>>From a House staffer:
>>
>>
>>>Friends, less than 20 minutes ago the House leadership announced we would 
>>>be considering the Senate bill which has none of the privacy protections 
>>>that Bob Barr and others worked to put in the House bill an contains 
>>>language attacking financial privacy and even allowing the government 
>>>expanded access to educational records. Votes on the rule are expected 
>>>soon and killing the rule is the best way to kill this bill.
>>>
> Perfectly understandable actions on the part of our "representatives"
> considering that they panicked a month ago and haven't been in their
> right minds since - most of them anyway. Feingold and Barr seem to be
> more stable than the average bear.
> 
> The totally infuriating part is that it will take decades to undo the
> damage they're doing in a few short weeks.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 

Panicked, my foot. It's "steal candy from a baby" time.

jbdigriz




From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Fri Oct 12 15:01:09 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 15:01:09 -0700
Subject: Feingold amendment
In-Reply-To: <20011011235525.A14834@cluebot.com>; from declan@well.com
  on Thu, Oct 11, 2001 at 11:55:25PM -0400
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011011203505.03e0fdf8@pop3.lvcm.com>
  <20011011235525.A14834@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <20011012150109.L9827@navel.introspect>


on Thu, Oct 11, 2001 at 11:55:25PM -0400, Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com)
wrote:
> All three Feingold amendments have been killed by votes of about 90-10
> each time. So much for that idea.
>
> I'm going to be writing tomorrow about the conference committee. I wouldn't
> be too optimistic about the prospects there.
>
> Face it, folks, Congress is now dysfunctional.*
>
> -Declan
> * Maybe it was before, but it's just so glaringly obvious now.

Herblock thought so (thanks to Dan Gillmor):

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/herblock/gallery/2.htm

Peace.

--
Karsten M. Self         http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?              Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                    Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA!  http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                      http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Fri Oct 12 15:03:37 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 15:03:37 -0700
Subject: Wired predicts use of Nukes
Message-ID: <3BC768B9.A7331E9A@lsil.com>


There's a huge Muslim population ( nearly a billion isn't it? ) that
approves of neither the US strikes nor bin-Laden's activities or is
barely even aware of what is going on. Bin Laden & Co are trying to
convince Muslims everywhere to side with them and fight the infidels.
The US is trying to convince people we are not at war with an entire
religion. For the moment this seems to be true. So far the US has
managed to get some level of assent from the world community and
minimize the spread of unrest. Granted those nuclear weapons are
probably always accessible but why would the US use them now and
guarantee failure? It doesn't make sense. 

In short, why rush failure? It's already likely enough. There will be
plenty of time to use those things later if the entire situation falls
apart. That would suck beyond belief compared to the current situation
which already sucks pretty terribly in too many ways to count.

Mike




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Fri Oct 12 15:25:55 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 15:25:55 -0700
Subject: FBI myopia == crypto/steganography?
Message-ID: <3BC76DF3.EC6B643D@lsil.com>


citizenq at hushmail.com wrote :
>
> Perhaps just more evidence that the problem has been enough 
> meat-based intelligence to understand the shit that's just
> sitting around in plain sight. The biggest contribution to
> the disaster of 9/11 was "Intelligence" ineptness, and the
> 2nd biggest threat to > this country is "Intelligence"
> blaming it on our 'freedom' (disintegrating though it may be.)
>
We do have a problem with our faith in technology. 

In all fairness though, I would bet that there are people in the Bureau
who are saying "I told you so." It's tough to compete for airtime and
budget no matter what organization you're talking about.

> 'freedom' (disintegrating though it may be.)
>
I assign the attacks on civil liberties to a sorry combination of panic
and opportunism. It's disgusting and shows how weak we are. If those
proposing these measures had any courage or honor or respect for their
country they would be eager to open a substantial debate both in public
and in session. Instead, they are using chaos and panic to avoid
responsibility. The brevity of the list of those who want to debate
these issues honestly is far more depressing than all of the violence of
the past month.

See the reports on the sales of anti-depressants and sleep aids.

Mike




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Oct 11 23:27:27 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 16:27:27 +1000
Subject: The reward for osama bert laden
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011012161008.00a1ab80@pop.useoz.com>


The reward will be paid for information passed on in person to US 
authorities in a place/time of
their chosing.This rules out 99 % of those who might actually be close 
enough to know anything.
It also places them in immediate personal danger.Why isnt the reward 
encrypted as described in
AP? And before sandy starts up again,if AP is so unrealistic,why was a SS 
agent required to assist
10 plainclothes federal and state police take my computer away four months 
ago.I wish sandy
would explain to them how hopeless AP is.The main reason I think they wont 
encrypt is because
they dont want it used on them,just like they regularly threaten to use 
nukes yet back off when
they see it can boomerang on them.Cypherpunks should expose this craven 
cowardice or ...just say so.




From vortex at virtual-mail.com  Fri Oct 12 17:14:36 2001
From: vortex at virtual-mail.com (vortex at virtual-mail.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 17:14:36
Subject: toner cartridges
Message-ID: <200.705257.710189@unknown>





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From reeza at hawaii.rr.com  Fri Oct 12 20:15:20 2001
From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 17:15:20 -1000
Subject: Is Bush Nuking Afghanistan Now?
In-Reply-To: <200110121708.f9CH8hD20063@artifact.psychedelic.net>
References: <3BC6DA7E.D73340FD@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011012171012.02bf15c0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com>


At 10:08 AM 10/12/01 -0700, Eric Cordian wrote:

 >Conventional bunker busters weight 5,000 lbs, and have to be delivered
 >by structurally modified B-52s.

The GBU-28 (BLU-113 Penetrator) weighs 4,414 lbs, and can be delivered
by F-15s and F-111s.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smart/gbu-28.htm

Reese




From osama_ben-laden at hushmail.com  Fri Oct 12 17:18:31 2001
From: osama_ben-laden at hushmail.com (osama_ben-laden at hushmail.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 17:18:31 -0700
Subject: Paper tigers II
Message-ID: <200110130018.f9D0IV342516@mailserver1.hushmail.com>


The angel of vengeance will enter from the source many Americans hold most dear.




From reeza at hawaii.rr.com  Fri Oct 12 21:56:08 2001
From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 18:56:08 -1000
Subject: Is Bush Nuking Afghanistan Now?
In-Reply-To: <200110130353.f9D3rGc20673@artifact.psychedelic.net>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011012171012.02bf15c0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com >
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011012185414.02e84780@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com>


At 08:53 PM 10/12/01 -0700, Eric Cordian wrote:
 >Reese writes:
 >
 >>> Conventional bunker busters weight 5,000 lbs, and have to be delivered
 >>> by structurally modified B-52s.
 >
 >> The GBU-28 (BLU-113 Penetrator) weighs 4,414 lbs, and can be delivered
 >> by F-15s and F-111s.
 >
 >> http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smart/gbu-28.htm
 >
 >http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smart/gbu-28.htm says in part:
 >
 >"The GBU-28 is a 5,000-pound laser-guided conventional munition..."
 >
 >Later in the spec sheet, it cites the size of the bomb as 4,414 lbs.
 >Perhaps the 5,000 lbs was a rough estimate.  Perhaps the spec sheet is in
 >error.
 >
 >Current news stories are referring to it as the <5,000-pound GBU-28
 >"bunker buster" bomb>.

No argument on that.  On the structurally modified B-52 though,,,

 >http://europe.cnn.com/2001/US/10/10/ret.bunker.buster/
 >http://www.canoe.ca/CNEWSAttack011010/10_us-ap.html
 >
 >The B61-11 tactical nuke was a replacement for the B53, an 8,900 lb 9
 >megaton warhead, which could only be delivered by a B52.  I apparently
 >confused this with the B61-11 being an alternative to the GBU-28, which
 >can, as you point out, be delivered by a variety of aircraft.

Ah.  Okay, no worries then.

Reese




From membership2 at aaas.org  Fri Oct 12 19:53:18 2001
From: membership2 at aaas.org (membership2 at aaas.org)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 19:53:18 -0700
Subject: Science Online Subscription Activation JOE CYPHERPUNKS
Message-ID: <200110130259.f9D2x3X26654@highwire.stanford.edu>



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From declan at well.com  Fri Oct 12 16:53:20 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 19:53:20 -0400
Subject: House update on anti-terror bills: Look out
In-Reply-To: <3BC727B0.65D347AC@acmenet.net>; from sfurlong@acmenet.net
  on Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 01:26:08PM -0400
References: <3BC72299.B14EFEA0@lsil.com> <3BC727B0.65D347AC@acmenet.net>
Message-ID: <20011012195320.A5209@cluebot.com>


On Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 01:26:08PM -0400, Steve Furlong wrote:
> Throw Ron Paul into that select group, too. He's pretty reliable in

Ron Paul is extraordinarily reliable.

For comparison, see below.

-Declan

---


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE                                           CONTACT: Brian Walsh 
FRIDAY OCTOBER 12, 2001                                           202-225-2931; (877) 836-1325 

Barr Supports Compromise Anti-Terrorism Bill

Legislation Passes House with Bipartisan Majority

        WASHINGTON, D.C. -- U.S. Representative Bob Barr (GA-7), a
senior Member of the House Judiciary Committee, today issued the
following statement after supporting House passage of a comprehensive
anti-terrorism bill, which contains a five-year sunset provision.

        "I supported the anti-terrorism legislation today, not because
I thought it to be a perfect bill or that it may have prevented the
attacks of September 11th.  Rather, I supported the legislation
because it is a necessary step to take at this time,and it is an
appropriate compromise reached between many competing interests.  I'm
not happy with every provision in the bill, nor will I relent in my
defense of our civil liberties in the coming days, but this represents
a meaningful step to prevent future terrorist attacks.  As America
sets-out to find those responsible for the acts of war perpetrated on
us, my determination to accomplish this goal will be matched only by
my continued determination to protect the Bill of Rights."

Barr, a former federal prosecutor, represents Georgia's Seventh
District.  He serves on the House Financial Services, Judiciary, and
Government Reform Committees.


--30--




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Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 20:19:01 PDT
Subject: "Win Up To $31,000,000  Inside!" 
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pmguid:rd.k7t.37kh




From reeza at hawaii.rr.com  Fri Oct 12 23:34:29 2001
From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 20:34:29 -1000
Subject: What color are anthrax spores anyway?
In-Reply-To: <002401c15356$1cd99940$490da2cd@vaio>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011012203319.03c96d90@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com>


At 12:43 PM 10/12/01 -0700, sonofgomez709 wrote:
> > Subject: CDR: Re: What color are anthrax spores anyway?
>
>Just a minute...I'll check in the ShoeBox under the bed and
>get back to you...


So - what color was the box?  Pink inside?

Reese





From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Fri Oct 12 20:53:16 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 20:53:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Is Bush Nuking Afghanistan Now?
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011012171012.02bf15c0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com
  > from "Reese" at Oct 12, 2001 05:15:20 PM
Message-ID: <200110130353.f9D3rGc20673@artifact.psychedelic.net>


Reese writes:

>> Conventional bunker busters weight 5,000 lbs, and have to be delivered
>> by structurally modified B-52s.

> The GBU-28 (BLU-113 Penetrator) weighs 4,414 lbs, and can be delivered
> by F-15s and F-111s.

> http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smart/gbu-28.htm

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smart/gbu-28.htm says in part:

"The GBU-28 is a 5,000-pound laser-guided conventional munition..."

Later in the spec sheet, it cites the size of the bomb as 4,414 lbs.  
Perhaps the 5,000 lbs was a rough estimate.  Perhaps the spec sheet is in
error.

Current news stories are referring to it as the <5,000-pound GBU-28
"bunker buster" bomb>.

http://europe.cnn.com/2001/US/10/10/ret.bunker.buster/
http://www.canoe.ca/CNEWSAttack011010/10_us-ap.html

The B61-11 tactical nuke was a replacement for the B53, an 8,900 lb 9
megaton warhead, which could only be delivered by a B52.  I apparently
confused this with the B61-11 being an alternative to the GBU-28, which
can, as you point out, be delivered by a variety of aircraft.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From anonymous at anonymizer.com  Fri Oct 12 21:07:00 2001
From: anonymous at anonymizer.com (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 21:07 -0700
Subject: Plots inside of plots inside of ---
Message-ID: <200110130407.VAA09290@sirius.infonex.com>


I wonder if the anthrax incidence will go down
once the (anti) terrorism bill gets signed.




From adebowale77 at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 12 21:52:50 2001
From: adebowale77 at yahoo.com (tunji adebowale)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 21:52:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: getting aquianted.
Message-ID: <20011013045250.47352.qmail@web14908.mail.yahoo.com>


 

Tunji Adebowale, 
Ikoyi, Lagos. 
Tel/Fax: 234-1-3881


STRICTLY CONFIDENTIAL 

Attn:   DEAR PARTNER

    Seeking for a Dedicated and Committed Partnership
in a Business Proposal Worth US$26.5m. Through some
discreet inquiries from our Chambers of Commerce, you
and your organization were revealed as being quite
astute in private entreprise. On this premise, we have
no doubt in your ability to handle a financial
business of considerable amount, which will form the
bedrock of an extensive business partnership in due
course.                                               
   In unfolding this proposal, I want to count on your

status, as a respected executive of your company to 
believe that you will handle it with all sincerity and

accord it absolute confidentiality that it deserves. 
Being the secretary to the panel that is reviewing 
the award of past project that discovered this fund, I

have been mandated to open a business relationship 
with you on this mutually beneficial opportunity. 
This business involves the remittance of US$26.million

(Twenty Six Million, Five Hundred Thousand dollars) 
only into your bank account from our apex bank where 
this fund has been lying idle in a suspense account. 
The money accrued through deliberate over-invoicing of

old project executed for the Nigerian National 
Petroleum Corporation by some foreign firms. We have 
worked out this scheme to benefit us along with any 
foreign partner who obliges us the materials 
and channel to transfer out the fund into his/her 
nominated account with a view to traveling down to 
meet you thereafter so that we can have our share. 
  If you would assist or participate in this deal,
then please endeavor to get in touch with me
immediately through email,my telephone or fax line as
stated above. This is my personal and confidential
line and though the route might be busy, just keep on
trying until you get through. In picking on you for
this business, please note that your expertise has
been taken into consideration, as you will be required
to guide us through a wise investment of our share of
the fund in a viable and profitable venture in your
country. 
   In the world over, bigger firms who bid for various

contracts especially in third world countries like
ours can sub-contract some of them to other firms for
execution. That is your firm will be regarded as one
of those that executed one of such projects and
therefore entitle to receive the contract value. Be
rest assured that this transaction is 100% risk free
as there is actually no risk involved either now or in
the future for we are well connected in official
circle. 
   Given our level of commitment at the moment, we
want to assure you that with full dedication on your
part, the objective of having this fund remitted would
have been realized within a period of two weeks. It is
hereby expressly agreed in principle that at the end
of the transaction, you will be entitled to 30% of the
entire sum, which you are free to withdraw as soon as
you confirm that the fund has been remitted into your 
account. 
  I am awaiting your response most urgently whether
you are interested or not to enable me know the next
move to make. Endeavour to contact me as soon as
possible so as to expediate action on this
transaction.  Thanks.
 
Best regards, 
Mr Tunji adebowale. 






__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
http://personals.yahoo.com




From paul at robichaux.net  Fri Oct 12 19:57:41 2001
From: paul at robichaux.net (Paul E. Robichaux)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 21:57:41 -0500
Subject: Evil Empire meets Evil Disease
Message-ID: <311999AFA3B0FB419DBC4C85EF10556E49EE@cyclone.robichaux.local>


Obviously the work of the Linux community.

-----Original Message-----
From: Nomen Nescio [mailto:nobody at dizum.com] 
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 7:10 PM
To: cypherpunks at lne.com
Subject: Evil Empire meets Evil Disease


CNN is reporting at 8 PM EDT that the Reno, Nevada office of Microsoft
Licensing Incorporated, which handles product licensing agreements for
Microsoft, has received a suspicious letter which has been found to be
contaminated with anthrax.




From adebowale77 at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 12 21:59:14 2001
From: adebowale77 at yahoo.com (tunji adebowale)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 21:59:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: getting aquianted.
Message-ID: <20011013045914.84613.qmail@web14910.mail.yahoo.com>


 

Tunji Adebowale, 
Ikoyi, Lagos. 
Tel/Fax: 234-1-3881


STRICTLY CONFIDENTIAL 

Attn:   DEAR PARTNER

    Seeking for a Dedicated and Committed Partnership
in a Business Proposal Worth US$26.5m. Through some
discreet inquiries from our Chambers of Commerce, you
and your organization were revealed as being quite
astute in private entreprise. On this premise, we have
no doubt in your ability to handle a financial
business of considerable amount, which will form the
bedrock of an extensive business partnership in due
course.                                               
   In unfolding this proposal, I want to count on your

status, as a respected executive of your company to 
believe that you will handle it with all sincerity and

accord it absolute confidentiality that it deserves. 
Being the secretary to the panel that is reviewing 
the award of past project that discovered this fund, I

have been mandated to open a business relationship 
with you on this mutually beneficial opportunity. 
This business involves the remittance of US$26.million

(Twenty Six Million, Five Hundred Thousand dollars) 
only into your bank account from our apex bank where 
this fund has been lying idle in a suspense account. 
The money accrued through deliberate over-invoicing of

old project executed for the Nigerian National 
Petroleum Corporation by some foreign firms. We have 
worked out this scheme to benefit us along with any 
foreign partner who obliges us the materials 
and channel to transfer out the fund into his/her 
nominated account with a view to traveling down to 
meet you thereafter so that we can have our share. 
  If you would assist or participate in this deal,
then please endeavor to get in touch with me
immediately through email,my telephone or fax line as
stated above. This is my personal and confidential
line and though the route might be busy, just keep on
trying until you get through. In picking on you for
this business, please note that your expertise has
been taken into consideration, as you will be required
to guide us through a wise investment of our share of
the fund in a viable and profitable venture in your
country. 
   In the world over, bigger firms who bid for various

contracts especially in third world countries like
ours can sub-contract some of them to other firms for
execution. That is your firm will be regarded as one
of those that executed one of such projects and
therefore entitle to receive the contract value. Be
rest assured that this transaction is 100% risk free
as there is actually no risk involved either now or in
the future for we are well connected in official
circle. 
   Given our level of commitment at the moment, we
want to assure you that with full dedication on your
part, the objective of having this fund remitted would
have been realized within a period of two weeks. It is
hereby expressly agreed in principle that at the end
of the transaction, you will be entitled to 30% of the
entire sum, which you are free to withdraw as soon as
you confirm that the fund has been remitted into your 
account. 
  I am awaiting your response most urgently whether
you are interested or not to enable me know the next
move to make. Endeavour to contact me as soon as
possible so as to expediate action on this
transaction.  Thanks.
 
Best regards, 
Mr Tunji adebowale. 






__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
http://personals.yahoo.com




From sog at w-link.net  Fri Oct 12 22:18:41 2001
From: sog at w-link.net (CJ Parker)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 22:18:41 -0700
Subject: Why France lived in fear of 'Londonistan'
References: <20011013041342.0C8EC3465A@hun.org>
Message-ID: <03ad01c153aa$e14c3c20$380da2cd@vaio>


----- Original Message -----







        Sat 13 Oct 2001
        telegraph.co.uk
        Why France lived in fear of 'Londonistan'
        By Sean O'Neill
        Terrorist recruitment and fundraising by Islamic militants centred
on a London mosque were ignored for years by the British security services,
a former Special Branch informant claimed yesterday.



Naturally, the British security services will be using the current
climate of terror to cry out for even more intrusive powers to
spy on goDog&EveryBody, in order to gather an even larger
database of information to ignore until it is too late...


CJ Parker 
"Proud To Be A Felon In Ameri%a" ['%' Is For Swastika]
http://profiles.yahoo.com/sonofgomez709
http://www.technopagan.org/politics/xenix/
http://members.w-link.net/~sog/INDEX.HTM




From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Oct 12 05:19:13 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 22:19:13 +1000
Subject: who speaks for the detained
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011012221014.00a53c30@pop.useoz.com>


Dissapeared like the argentine dirty war? and who speaks for jim 
bell,leonard peltier,jeff luers,chris boyce
all the drug war prisoners and the ones who couldnt cop to a rotten plea 
deal.The US gulag is overtaking
the military industrial complex as a dark arm of the evil empire.FUCK the STATE.




From osama_ben-laden at hushmail.com  Fri Oct 12 23:38:21 2001
From: osama_ben-laden at hushmail.com (osama_ben-laden at hushmail.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 23:38:21 -0700
Subject: Paper tigers II
Message-ID: <200110130638.f9D6cLp79849@mailserver1c.hushmail.com>


On Sat, 13 Oct 2001 07:13:34 +0200 (MET DST), Eugene Leitl  wrote:
>On Fri, 12 Oct 2001 osama_ben-laden at hushmail.com wrote:
>
>> The angel of vengeance will enter from the source many Americans hold most dear.
>
>And the moon will turn to blood sausage, and there will be much feasting
>upon ticks and locusts and jubjubbirds, until the elephant will break wind
>in the distance, and the sun will turn green, and fall from heavens.

But we are getting ahead of ourselves, no?




From sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 13 00:02:28 2001
From: sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com (sonofgomez709)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 00:02:28 -0700
Subject: Paper tigers II 
Message-ID: <004001c153b5$067b1480$f90da2cd@vaio>


osama_ben-laden at hushmail.com, hiding underneath my bed, wrote:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---

The angel of vengeance will enter from the source many Americans hold most
dear.



TV???

CJ Parker 
http://profiles.yahoo.com/sonofgomez709
http://www.technopagan.org/politics/xenix/
http://members.w-link.net/~sog/INDEX.HTM




From reeza at hawaii.rr.com  Sat Oct 13 03:30:03 2001
From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 00:30:03 -1000
Subject: Paper tigers II
In-Reply-To: <20011013081902.28730.qmail@sidereal.kz>
References: 
 
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011013002745.02ec7e30@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com>


At 08:19 AM 10/13/01 +0000, Dr. Evil wrote:
 >> Shaddap you idiot.  Weren't you were the one claiming the Anthrax attacks
 >> were a hoax a few days ago.
 >
 >They are not a hoax, not at all.  However, contrary to the rumors
 >flying around, they are not at all related to the events of 9/11.  You
 >have to look someplace further away than Afghanistan to find the
 >source.  Hint: why do you think it is taking them so long to analyze
 >the DNA?  BECAUSE IT ISN'T FROM EARTH!

Put the crack pipe down and get some fresh air, you need it.

Do the world a favor, call artillery into your location and
stay there to make sure it arrives on target.

Reese

 >Do you think there is a
 >coincidence in the timing of the anthrax situation and the enormous
 >dust storm on Mars?  Do you think that maybe this dust storm, which
 >has been going on for three months, might be being used to CONCEAL
 >something which is going on on the surface of the planet?  Or do you
 >think these two incidents are just another "coincidence"?  Yeah, and
 >I've got a bridge I can sell you.




From lamer11 at hotmail.com  Sat Oct 13 00:36:04 2001
From: lamer11 at hotmail.com (CJ Parker)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 00:36:04 -0700
Subject: Unscribive
Message-ID: 




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From lamer11 at hotmail.com  Sat Oct 13 00:38:01 2001
From: lamer11 at hotmail.com (CJ Parker)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 00:38:01 -0700
Subject: Unsriviven
Message-ID: 




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From lamer11 at hotmail.com  Sat Oct 13 00:38:45 2001
From: lamer11 at hotmail.com (CJ Parker)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 00:38:45 -0700
Subject: Discribive
Message-ID: 




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From lamer11 at hotmail.com  Sat Oct 13 00:42:08 2001
From: lamer11 at hotmail.com (CJ Parker)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 00:42:08 -0700
Subject: Unscribriven Me, Please!
Message-ID: 




Lamer11 at hotmail.com
"I Am Not A Lamer, But I Play One In Real Life"


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From lamer11 at hotmail.com  Sat Oct 13 00:42:43 2001
From: lamer11 at hotmail.com (CJ Parker)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 00:42:43 -0700
Subject: Hey! Take Me Off This List! OK?
Message-ID: 




Lamer11 at hotmail.com
"I Am Not A Lamer, But I Play One In Real Life"


_________________________________________________________________
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From lamer11 at hotmail.com  Sat Oct 13 00:45:10 2001
From: lamer11 at hotmail.com (CJ Parker)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 00:45:10 -0700
Subject: Thxs for the help, but I can't find the ClueServer? Can you tell me where to go?
Message-ID: 




Lamer11 at hotmail.com
"I Am Not A Lamer, But I Play One In Real Life"


_________________________________________________________________
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From lamer11 at hotmail.com  Sat Oct 13 00:45:53 2001
From: lamer11 at hotmail.com (CJ Parker)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 00:45:53 -0700
Subject: Very funny, AssHole... SOMEBODY TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!
Message-ID: 




Lamer11 at hotmail.com
"I Am Not A Lamer, But I Play One In Real Life"


_________________________________________________________________
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From lamer11 at hotmail.com  Sat Oct 13 00:46:39 2001
From: lamer11 at hotmail.com (CJ Parker)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 00:46:39 -0700
Subject: Unscribive me from this list or I'll Spam the shit out of it!
Message-ID: 




Lamer11 at hotmail.com
"I Am Not A Lamer, But I Play One In Real Life"


_________________________________________________________________
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From lamer11 at hotmail.com  Sat Oct 13 00:47:22 2001
From: lamer11 at hotmail.com (CJ Parker)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 00:47:22 -0700
Subject: Hey! Where did all of my files go? You AssHoles...
Message-ID: 




Lamer11 at hotmail.com
"I Am Not A Lamer, But I Play One In Real Life"


_________________________________________________________________
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From lamer11 at hotmail.com  Sat Oct 13 00:49:00 2001
From: lamer11 at hotmail.com (CJ Parker)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 00:49:00 -0700
Subject: Thxs, but I can't *find* the  key. Where do I look for it?
Message-ID: 




Lamer11 at hotmail.com
"I Am Not A Lamer, But I Play One In Real Life"


_________________________________________________________________
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From lamer11 at hotmail.com  Sat Oct 13 00:50:00 2001
From: lamer11 at hotmail.com (CJ Parker)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 00:50:00 -0700
Subject: Very funny, AssHole! TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!
Message-ID: 




Lamer11 at hotmail.com
"I Am Not A Lamer, But I Play One In Real Life"


_________________________________________________________________
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From lamer11 at hotmail.com  Sat Oct 13 00:51:25 2001
From: lamer11 at hotmail.com (CJ Parker)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 00:51:25 -0700
Subject: Unscribive cypherpunks 
Message-ID: 




Lamer11 at hotmail.com
"I Am Not A Lamer, But I Play One In Real Life"


_________________________________________________________________
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From lamer11 at hotmail.com  Sat Oct 13 00:52:00 2001
From: lamer11 at hotmail.com (CJ Parker)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 00:52:00 -0700
Subject: Unscribiven cypherpunks 
Message-ID: 




Lamer11 at hotmail.com
"I Am Not A Lamer, But I Play One In Real Life"


_________________________________________________________________
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From lamer11 at hotmail.com  Sat Oct 13 00:52:38 2001
From: lamer11 at hotmail.com (CJ Parker)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 00:52:38 -0700
Subject: Hey! Somebody take me off this list, ok?
Message-ID: 




Lamer11 at hotmail.com
"I Am Not A Lamer, But I Play One In Real Life"


_________________________________________________________________
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From lamer11 at hotmail.com  Sat Oct 13 00:53:10 2001
From: lamer11 at hotmail.com (CJ Parker)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 00:53:10 -0700
Subject: Please? Really, please?
Message-ID: 




Lamer11 at hotmail.com
"I Am Not A Lamer, But I Play One In Real Life"


_________________________________________________________________
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From lamer11 at hotmail.com  Sat Oct 13 00:55:52 2001
From: lamer11 at hotmail.com (CJ Parker)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 00:55:52 -0700
Subject: Hey, you assholes take me of this list or 
Message-ID: 




Lamer11 at hotmail.com
"I Am Not A Lamer, But I Play One In Real Life"


_________________________________________________________________
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From lamer11 at hotmail.com  Sat Oct 13 00:56:37 2001
From: lamer11 at hotmail.com (CJ Parker)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 00:56:37 -0700
Subject: Where's My Files!!! I'm getting really pissed!
Message-ID: 




Lamer11 at hotmail.com
"I Am Not A Lamer, But I Play One In Real Life"


_________________________________________________________________
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From lamer11 at hotmail.com  Sat Oct 13 00:58:01 2001
From: lamer11 at hotmail.com (CJ Parker)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 00:58:01 -0700
Subject: I still can't find the ClueServer. Can't anyone tell me where to go?
Message-ID: 




Lamer11 at hotmail.com
"I Am Not A Lamer, But I Play One In Real Life"


_________________________________________________________________
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From lamer11 at hotmail.com  Sat Oct 13 00:58:34 2001
From: lamer11 at hotmail.com (CJ Parker)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 00:58:34 -0700
Subject: Very funny, you asshole.
Message-ID: 




Lamer11 at hotmail.com
"I Am Not A Lamer, But I Play One In Real Life"


_________________________________________________________________
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From lamer11 at hotmail.com  Sat Oct 13 00:59:02 2001
From: lamer11 at hotmail.com (CJ Parker)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 00:59:02 -0700
Subject: Unscribiven
Message-ID: 




Lamer11 at hotmail.com
"I Am Not A Lamer, But I Play One In Real Life"


_________________________________________________________________
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From lamer11 at hotmail.com  Sat Oct 13 00:59:27 2001
From: lamer11 at hotmail.com (CJ Parker)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 00:59:27 -0700
Subject: Discribiven
Message-ID: 




Lamer11 at hotmail.com
"I Am Not A Lamer, But I Play One In Real Life"


_________________________________________________________________
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From lamer11 at hotmail.com  Sat Oct 13 00:59:59 2001
From: lamer11 at hotmail.com (CJ Parker)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 00:59:59 -0700
Subject: Log Off
Message-ID: 




Lamer11 at hotmail.com
"I Am Not A Lamer, But I Play One In Real Life"


_________________________________________________________________
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From lamer11 at hotmail.com  Sat Oct 13 01:00:22 2001
From: lamer11 at hotmail.com (CJ Parker)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 01:00:22 -0700
Subject: Quit
Message-ID: 




Lamer11 at hotmail.com
"I Am Not A Lamer, But I Play One In Real Life"


_________________________________________________________________
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From lamer11 at hotmail.com  Sat Oct 13 01:00:47 2001
From: lamer11 at hotmail.com (CJ Parker)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 01:00:47 -0700
Subject: Unscribive
Message-ID: 




Lamer11 at hotmail.com
"I Am Not A Lamer, But I Play One In Real Life"


_________________________________________________________________
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From unicorn at schloss.li  Sat Oct 13 01:19:30 2001
From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 01:19:30 -0700
Subject: Paper tigers II
In-Reply-To: <200110130018.f9D0IV342516@mailserver1.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: 


Shaddap you idiot.  Weren't you were the one claiming the Anthrax attacks
were a hoax a few days ago.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com]On
> Behalf Of osama_ben-laden at hushmail.com
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 5:19 PM
> To: cypherpunks at lne.com
> Subject: Paper tigers II
>
>
> The angel of vengeance will enter from the source many Americans
> hold most dear.
>




From nobody at dizum.com  Fri Oct 12 17:10:05 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 02:10:05 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Evil Empire meets Evil Disease
Message-ID: 


CNN is reporting at 8 PM EDT that the Reno, Nevada office of Microsoft
Licensing Incorporated, which handles product licensing agreements for
Microsoft, has received a suspicious letter which has been found to be
contaminated with anthrax.




From ceri at firemail.de  Fri Oct 12 17:34:57 2001
From: ceri at firemail.de (Mueller)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 02:34:57 +0200
Subject: PERI TRIO DOKA FRAMAX FORMWORK
Message-ID: <200110130032.CAA11605@213.193.12.60>


DEAR SIR,

E HAVE FOR SALE USED FORMWORK PERI TRIO, 800 SQM STEEL AND ALU, AND USED
FORMORK DOKA FRAMAX 2 000 SQM, VERY GOOD CONDITION, LOCATION BERLIN.

PLEASE LET USK NOW IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN THOSE PRODUCTS, WE WILL SEND YO
DETAIL LIST PER FAX.

BEST REGARDS.

S.BUTAUX.
CERI SCHALUNGSCENTER GMBH.
TEL: 00 48 604 280 506
FAX: 00 48 22 654 50 81




From drevil at sidereal.kz  Fri Oct 12 20:45:43 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil)
Date: 13 Oct 2001 03:45:43 -0000
Subject: Very important question: Is Mr. bin Laden a leftie?
Message-ID: <20011013034543.1635.qmail@sidereal.kz>


I have the impression, from the small number of photos and videos that
I have seen, that Mr. bin Laden may be sinister, in the literal sense
of the word.  Does anyone have information on this?  This leads to the
obvious question: if you're firing an AK left-handed, how do you avoid
getting brass stuck in your beard?

The curious want to know.




From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Oct 13 05:32:03 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 05:32:03 -0700
Subject: RIAA Safeweb Proxy ID
Message-ID: <200110130938.FAA01914@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>


Thanks to SC:

[SC's IP address replaced by xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx]

-----

I've tuned in late to the riaa/safeweb thing, but I'm chiming in 
with my bit.

Tracing from safeweb is an interesting exercise; the geography is
very typical of the internet backbone and the router hops packets
take.

I wrote a script to mail all possible headers from a connecting
browser to myself. I installed it on my server

  http://xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx:8140, 

and then connected from Safeweb. 

This anonymizer uses a caching proxy server, listening for
connections on several IPs; it preserves client headers while
obviously changing the IP of the originating connection; it preserves
many of the originating headers; it adds some new headers. 

Here's the output:

GATEWAY_INTERFACE..........CGI/1.1

REMOTE_ADDR..........64.124.150.136

DATE_LOCAL..........Saturday, 13-Oct-2001 01:22:45 EDT

REQUEST_METHOD..........GET

QUERY_STRING..........

DOCUMENT_URI........../index.html

HTTP_ACCEPT..........image/gif, image/x-xbitmap, image/jpeg,
image/pjpeg, application/vnd.ms-powerpoint, application/vnd.ms-excel,
application/msword, */*

REMOTE_PORT..........2513

SERVER_ADDR..........142.204.119.75

HTTP_ACCEPT_LANGUAGE..........en-us

HTTP_CACHE_CONTROL..........max-age=259200

REDIRECT_STATUS..........200

HTTP_ACCEPT_ENCODING..........gzip

SERVER_NAME..........xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx

HTTP_X_FORWARDED_FOR..........127.0.0.1

SERVER_PORT..........8140

DOCUMENT_NAME..........index.html

HTTP_IF_MODIFIED_SINCE..........Sat, 13 Oct 2001 05:15:44 GMT;
length=853

REDIRECT_URL........../

DATE_GMT..........Saturday, 13-Oct-2001 05:22:45 GMT

SERVER_PROTOCOL..........INCLUDED

HTTP_REFERER..........http://xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx

HTTP_USER_AGENT..........Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows
NT 5.0)

HTTP_CONNECTION..........keep-alive

REQUEST_URI........../

HTTP_HOST..........xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx:8140

HTTP_VIA..........1.0 anongo.com:3128 (Squid/2.3.STABLE3)

The last one in the list is the flavour of proxy they use:

  Squid/2.3.stable3

And the DNS name of the source box for the HTTP request
is anongo.com, which I don't believe showed up in your trace 
logs. 

Basically a caching proxy server's header set.

The authoritative name servers for anongo.com are 

  ns3.above.net


www.anongo.com redirects to Safeweb. The boxes are standard
unix/apache with ssl. They have written scripts to replace the
originating address header and keep track of the connection, receive
requested files to their cache, and then serve from that cache to
your browser.

The machines would absolutely be configured to do sophisticated
logging; there is no free lunch on the net. While they appear to do a
nice job, their server logs would be a goldmine. Everyone who uses a
commercial web browser agrees to have their information gathered the
first time they use that browser - do you want to continue? When you
say yes, you mean it!

-----




From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Fri Oct 12 21:46:51 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 06:46:51 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: IP: USSID 18 - Procedures on NSA collection data on "U.S. persons"(fwd)
Message-ID: 




-- Eugen* Leitl leitl
______________________________________________________________
ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204
57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 16:54:18 -0400
From: David Farber 
Reply-To: farber at cis.upenn.edu
To: ip-sub-1 at majordomo.pobox.com
Subject: IP: USSID 18 - Procedures on NSA collection data on "U.S. persons"


>Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:52:34 -0500
>From: John Lyon 
>To: dave at farber.net
>X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.472)
>
>Out of curiosity I went hunting for info on the United States Signals
>Intelligence Directives (USSIDs) I had to be aware of in a former line of work.
>
>Much to my surprise, USSID 18, which outlines procedures for the NSA's
>collection of data on "U.S. persons" was declassified just over a year ago.
>
>I thought the document might be of interest to IPers, especially at this time.
>
>An introduction, and links to the archives can be found at:
>
>      http://cipherwar.com/news/00/nsa_surveillance.htm
>
>(From the site above:)
>
>In the aftermath of revelations in the 1970s about NSA interception of the
>communications of anti-war and other political activists new procedures
>were established governing the interception of communications involving
>Americans. The version of USSID 18 currently in force was issued in July
>1993 and "prescribes policies and procedures and assigns responsibilities
>to ensure that the missions and functions of the United States SIGINT
>System (USSS) are conducted in a manner that safeguards the constitutional
>rights of U.S. persons."
>
>(And a bit from USSID 18, itself - any errors in transcription are my fault:)
>
>SECTION 1 - PREFACE
>
>1.1. (U) The Fourth Amendment ot the Unites States Constitution protects
>all U.S. persons anywhere in the world and all persons within the United
>States from unreasonable searches and seizures by any person or agency
>acting on behalf of the U.S. Government. The Supreme Court has ruled that
>the interception of electronic communications is a search and seizure
>within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment. It is therefore mandatory that
>signals intelligence (SIGINT) operations be conducted pursuant to
>procedures which meet the reasonableness requirements of the fourth
>amendment.
>
>1.2. (U) In determining whether United States SIGING System (USSS)
>operations are "reasonable," it is necessary to balance the U.S.
>Government's need for foreign intelligence information and the privacy
>interests of persons protected by the Fourth Amendment. Striking that
>balance has consumed much time and effort by all branches of the United
>States Government. The results of that effort are reflected in the
>references listed in Section 2 below. Together, these references require
>the minimization of U.S. person information collected, processed, retained
>or disseminated by the USSS. The purpose of this document is to implement
>these minimization requirements.
>
>1.3. (U) Several themes run throughout this USSID. The most important is
>that intelligence operation and the protection of constitutional rights are
>not incompatible. It is not necessary to deny legitimate foreign
>intelligence collection or suppress legitimate foreign intelligence
>information to protect the Fourth Amendment rights of U.S. Persons.
>
>1.4. (U) Finally, these minimization procedures implement the
>constitutional principle of "reasonableness" by giving different categories
>of individuals and entities different levels of protection. These levels
>range from the stringent protection accorded U.S. citizens and permanent
>resident aliens in the United States to provisions relating to foreign
>diplomats in the U.S. These differences reflect yet another main theme of
>these procedures, that is, that the focus of all foreign intelligence
>operation is on foreign entities and persons.
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>JEL
>


For archives see: http://lists.elistx.com/archives/interesting-people/




From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Fri Oct 12 21:59:49 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 06:59:49 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: [BIOWAR]  BACKROUND - Misc research results (fwd)
Message-ID: 




-- Eugen* Leitl leitl
______________________________________________________________
ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204
57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 03:33:46 +0000
From: John Davies 
To: biowar at topica.com
Subject: [BIOWAR]  BACKROUND - Misc research results

Search of- Anthrax vaccine Y1998

http://nl4.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=SR&p_theme=sr&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=500&p_text_search-0="Anthrax%20vaccine"&s_dispstring=Anthrax%20vaccine%20AND%20date(1998)&p_field_date-0=YMD_date&p_params_date-0=date:B,E&p_text_date-0=1998&p_perpage=25&p_sort=YMD_date:D&xcal_useweights=no


Article 1 of 1, Article ID: 9802230212
Published on February 20, 1998
FBI BUSTS PAIR FOR POSSESSION OF GERM AGENT ONE SUSPECT IS EX-MEMBER OF
ARYAN NATIONS
A former Aryan Nations member and a Nevada man are charged in Las Vegas
with possessing a deadly biological agent suspected to be anthrax.Larry
Wayne Harris, 45, and William J. Leavitt Jr., 47, were arrested late
Wednesday by FBI agents who had followed them to a medical clinic near
Las Vegas.Federal authorities said Thursday they are not sure whether
the two men had an intended target of the germ-warfare agent.Harris, a
45-year-old microbiologist from Ohio, was an Aryan Nations member when
he w


Complete Article, 1094 words ( )

----------------
MORE ON HARRIS (Columbus, Ohio - 1998):

http://www.populist.com/98.4.anthrax.html

(report commentary - in part)...There's another factor the
administration forgot about until one day too late, although it's a safe
bet everybody in the audience at St. John Arena remembered: A mere 35
miles as the crow flies from Albright's armchair sits the home
laboratory of Larry Wayne Harris, "the Plague Man." Since his first
arrest in 1995 for possession of the plague virus, Harris has been
aggressively peddling his martrydom throughout central Ohio. As a
result, Columbusites know exactly what a working bio-war lab looks like.
It's the overcrowded kitchen of a white-shingled bungalow three blocks
from downtown Lancaster....


(Harris - quoted)..."Everything I told you about biologicals last spring
is still true," he told a reporter, "except for one thing. I said the
militias didn't have their own biologicals. Now, they do."...

(background to this story) Mimi Morris and Michael Weber are
investigative journalists based in Columbus. They are associate
producers for "The War Within the States," a documentary on the far
right anti-government movement currently in development by James Neff
Productions for Oregon Public Broadcasting. Reporting for this piece was
underwritten in part by a grant from the Dick Goldensohn Fund.

-----------------------
MORE ON HARRIS AND ONE OF HIS ASSOCIATES

http://www.footballserver.com/newsroom/ntn/nation/022098/nationt_19879_S1_body.html


Anthrax suspects Larry Wayne Harris and William Job Leavitt profiled

(except fotr the following notes - text removed for brevity)

LAS VEGAS (February 20, 1998 3:30 p.m. EST http://www.nando.net) -- One
is a self-styled expert on germ warfare with a felony record and a high
profile among America's right-wing counterculture. The other is
apparently a stranger to publicity, living in a remote desert town near
Lake Mead with his wife and three children and operating a fire-safety
business....

(break)

...The FBI says Leavitt owns microbiological laboratories in his
hometown of Logandale, Nev., and Frankfurt, Germany....

-----------------------
http://www.biology.arizona.edu/immunology/cs/cs_3/default.html

Case Study 3

Dead Cattle, Bloated, with Epistaxis

(There are eight interactive questions and answer in this case study -
see what you know (or don't) about b Anthraxcis)

(an interesting 8 point case study mentioning, at the end, the
Harris/Leavitt case)

-----------------------
http://www.salon.com/news/1998/02/20news.html

EXTRACT (after Harris arrest):

Lead line: The terror at home

The arrest of two men in Las Vegas on charges of carrying stocks of the
anthrax virus highlights how easy it is to make weapons of mass
destruction. And to some terrorism experts, that's a lot scarier than
Saddam Hussein.

BY JEFF STEIN | Call him Dr. Death.

(most text removed for brevity - a specifically interesting part however
follows)

...Coincidentally, the Pentagon planned to start making a training film
Friday on handling anthrax for local police, fire and medical units.
Anthrax is easy to make, the Pentagon found more than 30 years ago, when
it conducted secret experiments to see if non-scientists could assemble
biological weapons from textbooks and readily available materials, Salon
has learned.

"There were studies in the '50s and '60s where they took people who were
not microbiologists and not engineers that showed they could very
successfully carry out things," a government source said. "They had two
tasks before them: They had to create a biological weapon, and they had
to disperse it. And they could do it."

Thomas Dashiell, who in 1988 retired as director of the Pentagon's
Environmental and Life Sciences office, said he knew of Pentagon studies
in the 1970s that tried to determine how easy it would be for
non-experts to manufacture poisonous weapon, based on publicly available
literature.

"And yes, there was no question about it," Dashiell told Salon. "In
fact, there was a report that said, 'Oh, yeah.'"

The Pentagon quickly suppressed the study, Dashiell said. "It was an
unclassified research effort," he said. "However, the final report was
immediately classified, because they did not want to give a cookbook to
every terrorist in the country." ...


-----------------------
OTHER RESEARCH MATERIALS:

Search of- Anthrax vaccine Y1999

http://nl12.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=SR&p_theme=sr&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=500&p_text_search-0="Anthrax%20vaccine"&s_dispstring=Anthrax%20vaccine%20AND%20date(1999)&p_field_date-0=YMD_date&p_params_date-0=date:B,E&p_text_date-0=1999&p_perpage=25&p_sort=YMD_date:D&xcal_useweights=no


Article 1 of 1, Article ID: 9910130051
Published on October 13, 1999
NEW ANTHRAX VACCINE STUDIES LIKELY CONGRESS CONCERNED ABOUT RECRUITMENT
Congress is likely to order two new studies of the vaccine being used by
the military to protect U.S. troops against anthrax.Lawmakers are
suggesting the Pentagon is ``less than forthcoming'' when it says
reaction to the shots was small and they have no impact on troop
readiness.But a joint House-Senate committee has rejected a proposal by
U.S. Rep. George Nethercutt that the shots be voluntary until the new
studies prove the vaccine is safe.Nethercutt said he proposed the
unusual move toward vo


Complete Article, 657 words ( )

---------------------
Search of- Anthrax vaccine Y2000

http://nl4.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=SR&p_theme=sr&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=500&p_text_search-0="Anthrax%20vaccine"&s_dispstring=Anthrax%20vaccine%20AND%20date(2000)&p_field_date-0=YMD_date&p_params_date-0=date:B,E&p_text_date-0=2000&p_perpage=25&p_sort=YMD_date:D&xcal_useweights=no


Article 1 of 1, Article ID: 0004050002
Published on April 5, 2000
SAFETY OF ANTHRAX SHOTS UNCLEAR, RESEARCHERS SAY MANDATORY INOCULATIONS
OF TROOPS CAN'T BE JUSTIFIED, NETHERCUTT SAYS
Researchers don't know enough about anthrax vaccine to say whether it's
safe to inoculate all U.S. troops, a panel of medical experts says in a
new report to Congress.The Institute of Medicine reviewed studies of the
effects of the vaccine on patients and found the information lacking,
researchers said.The institute was hired after Congress backed away last
year from a proposal to make anthrax shots voluntary for the 2.4 million
troops who were scheduled to receive them over the next five years


Complete Article, 919 words ( )

------------------
Search of- Anthrax vaccine Y2001

http://nl11.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=SR&p_theme=sr&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=500&p_text_search-0="anthrax%20vaccine"&s_dispstring=anthrax%20vaccine%20AND%20date(last%20180%20days)&p_field_date-0=YMD_date&p_params_date-0=date:B,E&p_text_date-0=-180qzD&p_perpage=25&p_sort=YMD_date:D&xcal_useweights=no



Article 1 of 2, Article ID: 0110010105
Published on October 1, 2001
Firm prepares for a different kind of war Hollister-Stier aids effort to
stockpile anthrax vaccine
A Spokane pharmaceutical company is taking on a key role in preparing
the U.S. military for possible biological attack by
terrorists.Hollister-Stier, along with the nation's only producer of
anthrax vaccine, is ramping up efforts to stockpile the vaccine for
later use by U.S. troops. Hollister-Stier has been hired by BioPort of
Lansing, Mich., to fill at least 40,000 vials of anthrax vaccine per
month.Last May, BioPort started trucking anthrax vaccine made in
Michigan to the Hollister-Stier labs


Complete Article, 1251 words ( )

---------------------

Article 2 of 2, Article ID: 0105300146
Published on May 30, 2001
Spokane's Hollister-Stier gets pact for anthrax vaccine
A Spokane company will become the primary order-filler for vaccine
against anthrax, considered the world's most dangerous biological
warfare threat against U.S. troops.Hollister-Stier CEO Anthony Bonanzino
announced Tuesday a long-term contract with a Michigan-based firm to
fill anthrax vaccine at the company's north Spokane
facility.Hollister-Stier for years has been one of the country's largest
producers of allergy vaccines and other allergen products.The anthrax
vaccine order is part of the c


Complete Article, 486 words ( )

----------------------



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From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Fri Oct 12 22:13:34 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 07:13:34 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Paper tigers II
In-Reply-To: <200110130018.f9D0IV342516@mailserver1.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: 


On Fri, 12 Oct 2001 osama_ben-laden at hushmail.com wrote:

> The angel of vengeance will enter from the source many Americans hold most dear.

And the moon will turn to blood sausage, and there will be much feasting
upon ticks and locusts and jubjubbirds, until the elephant will break wind
in the distance, and the sun will turn green, and fall from heavens.




From drevil at sidereal.kz  Sat Oct 13 01:19:02 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil)
Date: 13 Oct 2001 08:19:02 -0000
Subject: Paper tigers II
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <20011013081902.28730.qmail@sidereal.kz>


> Shaddap you idiot.  Weren't you were the one claiming the Anthrax attacks
> were a hoax a few days ago.

They are not a hoax, not at all.  However, contrary to the rumors
flying around, they are not at all related to the events of 9/11.  You
have to look someplace further away than Afghanistan to find the
source.  Hint: why do you think it is taking them so long to analyze
the DNA?  BECAUSE IT ISN'T FROM EARTH!  Do you think there is a
coincidence in the timing of the anthrax situation and the enormous
dust storm on Mars?  Do you think that maybe this dust storm, which
has been going on for three months, might be being used to CONCEAL
something which is going on on the surface of the planet?  Or do you
think these two incidents are just another "coincidence"?  Yeah, and
I've got a bridge I can sell you.




From xeni at xeni.net  Sat Oct 13 08:38:24 2001
From: xeni at xeni.net (Xeni Jardin)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 08:38:24 -0700
Subject: L.A. Sony Pictures employee hospitalized; anthrax exposure
  suspected
Message-ID: 


(CNN) -- California is the latest state to report a possible case of anthrax
exposure.
http://www.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/conditions/10/13/anthrax/index.html

An employee of Sony Pictures in Culver City has been admitted to the hospital
after opening an envelope containing a white powdery substance, a local law
enforcement official said. (Full story)

"When he opened it, he took an item out and got a white powdery substance on his
hands," Culver City Police Lt. Dave Tankenson said.

The man, whose name was not released, was being examined at Brotman Medical
Center on Friday, Tankenson said.

Tankenson said officials were discussing the possibility the powder was anthrax
but could not be sure until test results were completed. "We're treating it as a
serious incident until we learn otherwise," he said. (...)




From mikecabot at fastcircle.com  Sat Oct 13 06:14:13 2001
From: mikecabot at fastcircle.com (mikecabot at fastcircle.com)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 09:14:13 -0400
Subject: RIAA Safeweb Proxy ID
Message-ID: <200110131313.f9DDDJf01289@slack.lne.com>


For anyone interested, Squid is basically just an HTTP/FTP cache.... 
similar to what AOL uses, for instance, and many satellite-based Net 
ISPs (Starband, DirecPC) use to maximize bandwidth utlization.

Black Helicopter alert: Squid is based on an ARPA-funded project 
called "Harvest".... a project that investigated "harversting" of 
data across large, presumably public, networks, for archiving 
and "study" :)

Squid itself is opensource.... if you're interested, check out
http://www.squid-cache.org

This is totally off-topic, but consider this: the way that a Proxy 
cache works (not just Squid, any cache) is that it stores all of the 
requested objects (web pages and files, in this case) on a series of 
local servers. Then, when a user requests them, it serves them off of 
ITS pages -- that way, it doesn't have to fetch them from 
the "public" Internet.

Now, what do you have? Yep... a complete archive on SafeWeb's local 
servers of all pages requested by their users.

Not being a conspiracy nut, I won't connect the last dot.... but you 
see the value of this to someone like the CIA -- besides an 
opportunity to create a voyeur-google, you can also control selected 
pages' contents (be replacing them with your own contents and 
disabling HTTP refresh of the page through the cache). 

To get back to the RIAA point, though:

What you're looking at are HTTP headers (what you'd see if you 
Telnet'ed to port 80 on Safeweb's web servers). Again, this won't get 
you any closer to identifying the path that someone took to get to 
Safeweb, and therefore, you cannot identify a target via this type of 
information.

(The more interesting point would be: can Safeweb do so? The answer 
is "you bet." The only thing they would have to do is classic 
log/connection-time synchronization analysis, and that would tell 
them the connection details of the user in question. But this can 
only be done by Safeweb or someone with access to Safeweb logs.)

Mike

> Original Message from Sat, 13 Oct 2001 05:32:03 -0700:> 
> Thanks to SC:
> 
> [SC's IP address replaced by xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx]
> 
> -----
> 
> I've tuned in late to the riaa/safeweb thing, but I'm chiming in 
> with my bit.
> 
> Tracing from safeweb is an interesting exercise; the geography is
> very typical of the internet backbone and the router hops packets
> take.
> 
> I wrote a script to mail all possible headers from a connecting
> browser to myself. I installed it on my server
> 
>   http://xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx:8140, 
> 
> and then connected from Safeweb. 
> 
> This anonymizer uses a caching proxy server, listening for
> connections on several IPs; it preserves client headers while
> obviously changing the IP of the originating connection; it 
preserves
> many of the originating headers; it adds some new headers. 
> 
> Here's the output:
> 
> GATEWAY_INTERFACE..........CGI/1.1
> 
> REMOTE_ADDR..........64.124.150.136
> 
> DATE_LOCAL..........Saturday, 13-Oct-2001 01:22:45 EDT
> 
> REQUEST_METHOD..........GET
> 
> QUERY_STRING..........
> 
> DOCUMENT_URI........../index.html
> 
> HTTP_ACCEPT..........image/gif, image/x-xbitmap, image/jpeg,
> image/pjpeg, application/vnd.ms-powerpoint, application/vnd.ms-
excel,
> application/msword, */*
> 
> REMOTE_PORT..........2513
> 
> SERVER_ADDR..........142.204.119.75
> 
> HTTP_ACCEPT_LANGUAGE..........en-us
> 
> HTTP_CACHE_CONTROL..........max-age=259200
> 
> REDIRECT_STATUS..........200
> 
> HTTP_ACCEPT_ENCODING..........gzip
> 
> SERVER_NAME..........xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx
> 
> HTTP_X_FORWARDED_FOR..........127.0.0.1
> 
> SERVER_PORT..........8140
> 
> DOCUMENT_NAME..........index.html
> 
> HTTP_IF_MODIFIED_SINCE..........Sat, 13 Oct 2001 05:15:44 GMT;
> length=853
> 
> REDIRECT_URL........../
> 
> DATE_GMT..........Saturday, 13-Oct-2001 05:22:45 GMT
> 
> SERVER_PROTOCOL..........INCLUDED
> 
> HTTP_REFERER..........http://xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx
> 
> HTTP_USER_AGENT..........Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows
> NT 5.0)
> 
> HTTP_CONNECTION..........keep-alive
> 
> REQUEST_URI........../
> 
> HTTP_HOST..........xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx:8140
> 
> HTTP_VIA..........1.0 anongo.com:3128 (Squid/2.3.STABLE3)
> 
> The last one in the list is the flavour of proxy they use:
> 
>   Squid/2.3.stable3
> 
> And the DNS name of the source box for the HTTP request
> is anongo.com, which I don't believe showed up in your trace 
> logs. 
> 
> Basically a caching proxy server's header set.
> 
> The authoritative name servers for anongo.com are 
> 
>   ns3.above.net
> 
> 
> www.anongo.com redirects to Safeweb. The boxes are standard
> unix/apache with ssl. They have written scripts to replace the
> originating address header and keep track of the connection, receive
> requested files to their cache, and then serve from that cache to
> your browser.
> 
> The machines would absolutely be configured to do sophisticated
> logging; there is no free lunch on the net. While they appear to do 
a
> nice job, their server logs would be a goldmine. Everyone who uses a
> commercial web browser agrees to have their information gathered the
> first time they use that browser - do you want to continue? When you
> say yes, you mean it!
> 
> -----
> 
> 
> 
> 

_______________________________________________________________________________
WANT YOUR OWN FREE AND SECURE WEB EMAIL ADDRESS?

Visit http://www.fastcircle.com 




From osama_ben-laden at hushmail.com  Sat Oct 13 09:24:05 2001
From: osama_ben-laden at hushmail.com (osama_ben-laden at hushmail.com)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 09:24:05 -0700
Subject: Paper tigers II
Message-ID: <200110131624.f9DGO5p46763@mailserver1.hushmail.com>


>Shaddap you idiot.  Weren't you were the one claiming the Anthrax attacks
were a hoax a few days ago.

No.

"It will be revealed that he who used biologicals to attack the press was not acting in our name."




From morlockelloi at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 13 09:38:13 2001
From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 09:38:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: How not to be seen (Re:  RIAA Safeweb Proxy ID)
In-Reply-To: <200110131313.f9DDDJf01289@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <20011013163813.92474.qmail@web13204.mail.yahoo.com>


> This is totally off-topic, but consider this: the way that a Proxy 
> cache works (not just Squid, any cache) is that it stores all of the 
> requested objects (web pages and files, in this case) on a series of 
> local servers. Then, when a user requests them, it serves them off of 

It boggles one's mind - the idea that data will _not_ be collected just because
someone says so. Using any concentration point to "anonymize" http access is
like frequenting the facility marked "SAFE PLACE FOR DRUG DEALING" in huge red
letters to cater for one's need for untaxed molecules.

At best it can shield from naive end users - unless they get pissed like JYA.

The only way to anonymize is, of course, visiting the cameraless internet cafe
in the neighbouring city or 802.11-ing into some idiot's AP with the default
settings.


=====
end
(of original message)

Y-a*h*o-o (yes, they scan for this) spam follows:
Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
http://personals.yahoo.com




From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Oct 13 09:43:41 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 09:43:41 -0700
Subject: Anongo is DoD Domain
Message-ID: <200110131349.JAA02662@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>


==================================================
=== VisualRoute report on 13-Oct-01 9:39:35 AM ===
==================================================

Real-time report for anongo.com [215.104.228.144] (80% done)

Analysis: IP packets are being lost past network "Qwest Communications" at
hop 13. There is insufficient cached information to determine the next
network at hop 14. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Hop | %Loss | IP Address      | Node Name                       |
Location             | Tzone  | ms  | Graph      | Network
      |
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
| 1   |       | 206.115.154.10  | tnt10.nyc3.da.uu.net            | New
York, NY, USA    | -05:00 | 164 |    --x--   | UUNET Dial-Up Networks
  |
| 2   |       | 206.115.245.2   | -                               |
?Fairfax, VA 22031   |        | 152 |    -x--    | UUNET Dial Access
Network      |
| 3   |       | 152.63.23.190   | 230.at-2-1-0.HR2.NYC9.ALTER.NET | New
York, NY, USA    | -05:00 | 156 |    -x--    | UUNET Technologies, Inc.
  |
| 4   |       | 152.63.15.198   | 0.so-2-3-0.XL2.NYC9.ALTER.NET   | New
York, NY, USA    | -05:00 | 168 |    --x--   | UUNET Technologies, Inc.
  |
| 5   |       | 152.63.23.142   | 0.so-7-0-0.XR2.NYC9.ALTER.NET   | New
York, NY, USA    | -05:00 | 173 |    --x---- | UUNET Technologies, Inc.
  |

| 6   |       | 152.63.18.205   | 280.at-1-0-0.XR2.NYC8.ALTER.NET | New
York, NY, USA    | -05:00 | 159 |    -x--    | UUNET Technologies, Inc.
  |
| 7   |       | 152.63.23.173   | 182.ATM6-0.BR1.NYC8.ALTER.NET   | New
York, NY, USA    | -05:00 | 128 |    x-----  | UUNET Technologies, Inc.
  |
| 8   |       | 205.171.4.9     | jfk-brdr-02.inet.qwest.net      | New
York, NY, USA    | -05:00 | 129 |    x----   | Colorado Supernet, Inc.
  |
| 9   |       | 205.171.230.26  | jfk-core-03.inet.qwest.net      | New
York, NY, USA    | -05:00 | 125 |    x--     | Colorado Supernet, Inc.
  |
| 10  |       | 205.171.230.5   | jfk-core-01.inet.qwest.net      | New
York, NY, USA    | -05:00 | 123 |    x--     | Colorado Supernet, Inc.
  |
| 11  |       | 205.171.5.236   | wdc-core-01.inet.qwest.net      |
Washington, DC, USA  | -05:00 | 129 |    x--     | Colorado Supernet, Inc.
      |
| 12  |       | 205.171.24.82   | wdc-edge-05.inet.qwest.net      |
Washington, DC, USA  | -05:00 | 127 |    x--     | Colorado Supernet, Inc.
      |
| 13  |       | 63.148.66.222   | -                               |
?Arlington, VA 22203 |        | 133 |    -x---   | Qwest Communications
      |
| ... |       |                 |                                 |
             |        |     |            |                                |
| ?   |       | 215.104.228.144 | anongo.com                      |
?Vienna, VA 22183    |        |     |            | DoD Network Information
Center |
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roundtrip time to 63.148.66.222, average = 133ms, min = 112ms, max = 234ms
-- 13-Oct-01 9:39:35 AM

--------------

DoD Network Information Center (NETBLK-DDN-NIC16)
        7990 Boeing Court M/S CV-50
        Vienna, VA 22183
        US

        Netname: DDN-NIC16
        Netblock: 215.0.0.0 - 215.255.255.255
        Maintainer: DNIC

        Coordinator:
           DoD, Network  (MIL-HSTMST-ARIN)  HOSTMASTER at NIC.MIL
           (703) 676-1051 (800) 365-3642 (FAX) (703) 676-1749

        Domain System inverse mapping provided by:

        AAA-VIENNA.NIPR.MIL          207.132.116.60
        AAA-KELLY.NIPR.MIL           199.252.162.251
        AAA-WHEELER.NIPR.MIL         199.252.180.251
        AAA-VAIHINGEN.NIPR.MIL       199.252.154.251

        Record last updated on 09-Jun-1998.
        Database last updated on 12-Oct-2001 23:25:26 EDT.

----------




From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Oct 13 10:05:28 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 10:05:28 -0700
Subject: Safeweb Hotmail Question
Message-ID: <200110131411.KAA29044@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>


Safeweb principally offers web browsing anonymity.
Our source for the RIAA meeting allegations used a
hotmail address which resolved to a Safeweb IP
address. However, I don't see on Safeweb's site
an anonymizing mail service. Is there such a service
by Safeweb or does it sell an anonymizing e-mail
program?

The source last wrote that "multiple" Safeweb protection
was used to cloak the messages. Is there a way to chain
Hotmail to Safeweb, or some other way to "multiple"
Safeway protection as preamble to Hotmail?

It would be intriguing to learn that the source is
connected to Safeweb itself, or Safeweb's backers.




From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Oct 13 10:10:00 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 10:10:00 -0700
Subject: RIAA Safeweb Proxy ID
In-Reply-To: <20011013145725.A6289477@exeter.ac.uk>
References: <200110131313.f9DDDJf01289@slack.lne.com>
  <200110131313.f9DDDJf01289@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <200110131416.KAA03557@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>


It is certainly a strong possibility that the DoD domain listing 
for Anongo.com is a CIA cover.

215.104.228.144 | anongo.com  | ?Vienna, VA 22183   | DoD Network
Information Center |

Adam Back wrote:

>A carnivore box at Safewb would work also for tying browsing habits to
>users.  Think Safeweb with their CIA ties would balk at installing
>one?  Do they already have one installed?




From declan at well.com  Sat Oct 13 07:37:47 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 10:37:47 -0400
Subject: House votes 339-79 to approve USA Act v2.0 "anti-terror" bill
Message-ID: <20011013103747.A13779@cluebot.com>


You can tell how your congresscritter voted on the unsuccessful
attempt to send back to to committee -- a good idea -- which failed 73-345:
http://clerkweb.house.gov/cgi-bin/vote.exe?year=2001&rollnumber=385

The 339-79 final roll call vote to approve the USA Act v2.0:
http://clerkweb.house.gov/cgi-bin/vote.exe?year=2001&rollnumber=386

Text of USA Act v2.0:
http://www.house.gov/rules/sensen_028.pdf

Background on debate:
http://www.politechbot.com/p-02652.html

---

http://www.wired.com/news/conflict/0,2100,47549,00.html

   House Endorses Snoop Bill
   By Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com)
   2:00 a.m. Oct. 13, 2001 PDT
   
   WASHINGTON -- The House of Representatives voted overwhelmingly Friday
   afternoon to hand unprecedented surveillance powers to police.
   
   Just hours after the Senate approved its version of the anti-terrorism
   bill, House legislators followed suit by voting 339-79 to ease limits
   on wiretapping and Internet monitoring.
   
   The big difference: The House attached an expiration date to the "USA
   Act" (PDF). The wiretap sections expire in December 2004 -- unless the
   president decides it is in the "national interest" to extend them
   until December 2006.
   
   During the five-hour debate, legislators complained that House leaders
   had forced a vote before anyone had a chance to review the 175-page
   bill. Early in the morning, top House Republicans met privately and
   abruptly agreed to use the Senate's anti-terrorism bill instead of a
   more moderate one that their colleagues had expected.
   
   Democrats were the most strident critics of that decision. Barney
   Frank (D-Massachusetts) said: "What we have today is an outrageous
   procedure: A bill, drafted by a handful of people in secret, comes to
   us without a committee review and immune to amendment."
   
   Frank was talking about a rule handed down from GOP leaders on Friday
   morning that banned any changes to the USA Act before the vote.

   [...]



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----- End forwarded message -----




From tcmay at got.net  Sat Oct 13 10:43:39 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 10:43:39 -0700
Subject: FBI myopia == crypto/steganography?
In-Reply-To: <200110122106.f9CL6hb13224@mailserver1.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: 


On Friday, October 12, 2001, at 02:06 PM, citizenq at hushmail.com wrote:

> Perhaps just more evidence that the problem has been enough meat-based 
> intelligence to understand the shit that's just sitting around in plain 
> sight.
>
> The biggest contribution to the disaster of 9/11 was "Intelligence" 
> ineptness, and the 2nd biggest threat to this country is "Intelligence" 
> blaming it on our 'freedom' (disintegrating though it may be.)
>
>> To: cypherpunks at lne.com
>> Subject: NPR Story Yesterday
>>
>> A writer for the Voice ( if I heard it correctly ) talked about a
>> computer captured in Manila that was supposedly used by Ramzi Yousef. 
>> He
>> said that there were documents that described hijacking planes and
>> flying them into prominent buildings.
>>
>> This information was turned over to the FBI in 1995 or 1996.
>>
>> I hope with expanded powers for surveillance and searches that they can
>> gather better information and shorten the analysis period.


Most of the above is nonsense.

I heard about the plan to hijack and crash 8 jetliners back when the 
arrests were made. It was well-covered in the press.

To now claim that this is just now being publicized is ludicrous and 
credulous.




--Tim May, Corralitos, California
Quote of the Month: "It is said that there are no atheists in foxholes; 
perhaps there are no true libertarians in times of terrorist attacks." 
--Cathy Young, "Reason Magazine," both enemies of liberty.




From tcmay at got.net  Sat Oct 13 10:48:55 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 10:48:55 -0700
Subject: bush wheels out the nukes
In-Reply-To: <20011012123951.442ca7c5.inc@fastmedia.net>
Message-ID: <924F1F09-C002-11D5-B3E2-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Friday, October 12, 2001, at 03:39 PM, cpaul wrote:

> Begin forwarded message:
>
> Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 12:33:22 +1000
> Subject: B61-11
>
> THE US 'ANNOUNCED' THEIR INTENTION TO USE B61-11 BUNKER BUSTERS ON LAST
> NIGHT'S NEWS BULLETINS (BUT SOMEHOW FORGOT TO REFER TO THE FACT THAT 
> THEY
> ARE CLASSIFIED AS TACTICAL NUCLEAR WEAPONS)
>
>
> 2:00 a.m. Oct. 8, 2001 PDT
> Following the Sept. 11 attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon,
> Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld was questioned on ABC television's 
> This
> Week program about the possible use of tactical nuclear weapons in the
> expected conflicts to come.
> The most likely candidate is a tactical micro-nuke called the B61-11, an
> earth-penetrating nuclear device known as the "bunker buster."
>
> The B61-11 was designed to destroy underground military facilities such 
> as
> command bunkers, ballistic missile silos and facilities for producing 
> and
> storing weapons.

Whoever it is you are quoting (I can't tell), this is nonsense.

Bunker busters were used in the Gulf War...are you too young to recall 
that?

None of these bunker busters were nukes. Some were already-developed 
earth-burrowing warheads. Some were quickly-developed weapons based on 
converting large gun barrels (used on ships) into bombs.


--Tim May
"Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and
strangled with her panty hose,  is somehow morally superior to a woman 
explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound"




From mediafusion at zeeaccess.com  Fri Oct 12 22:46:15 2001
From: mediafusion at zeeaccess.com (mediafusion at zeeaccess.com)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 11:16:15 +0530
Subject: CATALOG OF CHINESE PRODUCTS ON CD-ROM
Message-ID: <200110130631.MAA28603@mailblr.zeeaccess.com>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
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URL: 

From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Sat Oct 13 11:35:50 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 11:35:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: bush wheels out the nukes
In-Reply-To: <924F1F09-C002-11D5-B3E2-0050E439C473@got.net> from "Tim
  May" at Oct 13, 2001 10:48:55 AM
Message-ID: <200110131835.f9DIZoc21118@artifact.psychedelic.net>


Tim writes:

>> Following the Sept. 11 attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon,
>> Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld was questioned on ABC television's 
>> This Week program about the possible use of tactical nuclear weapons in
>> the expected conflicts to come.

>> The most likely candidate is a tactical micro-nuke called the B61-11,
>> an earth-penetrating nuclear device known as the "bunker buster."

>> The B61-11 was designed to destroy underground military facilities such 
>> as command bunkers, ballistic missile silos and facilities for
>> producing and storing weapons.

> Whoever it is you are quoting (I can't tell), this is nonsense.

> Bunker busters were used in the Gulf War...are you too young to recall 
> that?

> None of these bunker busters were nukes. Some were already-developed 
> earth-burrowing warheads. Some were quickly-developed weapons based on 
> converting large gun barrels (used on ships) into bombs.

Yes and no.  Rumsfeld won't rule out the use of tactical nukes.

Both conventional and nuclear "Bunker Busters" are available, and the
B61-11 is specifically designed for his purpose, and widely deployed
thoughout NATO.  We even have a bunch of them in Turkey just in case
Saddam gets uppity.

The defense department has suggested the possible use of tactical nuke
Bunker Busters both in the Gulf War and in this current conflict.  In the
last war, Yeltsin wasn't on board, and in this war, Putin is.

The junior Bush is very fond of small tactical nukes, and I firmly believe
that if Osama bin Laden was in a very deep cave, and the American public
was distracted by an engaging performance of Anthrax Theatre, that he
might use a single such weapon to vaporize Osama to a big round of
applause.

Is this likely?  No.  But neither is it impossible.  Bush thinks he is
on the side of God fighting Evil.  All bets are off.

So far, the Bunker Busters have been conventional.  Tommorow, who knows?

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From tcmay at got.net  Sat Oct 13 11:58:19 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 11:58:19 -0700
Subject: bush wheels out the nukes
In-Reply-To: <200110131835.f9DIZoc21118@artifact.psychedelic.net>
Message-ID: <446F2832-C00C-11D5-B3E2-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Saturday, October 13, 2001, at 11:35 AM, Eric Cordian wrote:

>> ed on ships) into bombs.
>
> Yes and no.  Rumsfeld won't rule out the use of tactical nukes.
>
> Both conventional and nuclear "Bunker Busters" are available, and the
> B61-11 is specifically designed for his purpose, and widely deployed
> thoughout NATO.  We even have a bunch of them in Turkey just in case
> Saddam gets uppity.
>
> The defense department has suggested the possible use of tactical nuke
> Bunker Busters both in the Gulf War and in this current conflict.  In 
> the
> last war, Yeltsin wasn't on board, and in this war, Putin is.

Beside the point. I was commenting on the paranoid/misinformed rant that 
"use of bunker bunkers" means "use of nuclear bunker busters."

>
> The junior Bush is very fond of small tactical nukes,

You know this how?

--Tim May, Citizen-unit of of the once free United States
" The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood 
of patriots & tyrants. "--Thomas Jefferson, 1787




From measl at mfn.org  Sat Oct 13 09:59:50 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 11:59:50 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Paper tigers II
In-Reply-To: <20011013081902.28730.qmail@sidereal.kz>
Message-ID: 



Waitress!  Oh waitress!!!

I'll have what he's having.

Thanks!


On 13 Oct 2001, Dr. Evil wrote:

> They are not a hoax, not at all.  However, contrary to the rumors
> flying around, they are not at all related to the events of 9/11.  You
> have to look someplace further away than Afghanistan to find the
> source.  Hint: why do you think it is taking them so long to analyze
> the DNA?  BECAUSE IT ISN'T FROM EARTH!  Do you think there is a
> coincidence in the timing of the anthrax situation and the enormous
> dust storm on Mars?  Do you think that maybe this dust storm, which
> has been going on for three months, might be being used to CONCEAL
> something which is going on on the surface of the planet?  Or do you
> think these two incidents are just another "coincidence"?  Yeah, and
> I've got a bridge I can sell you.
> 
> 

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org  Sat Oct 13 09:08:54 2001
From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 12:08:54 -0400
Subject: Safeweb Hotmail Question
References: <200110131411.KAA29044@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3BC86716.5040108@dragonsweb.org>


John Young wrote:

> Safeweb principally offers web browsing anonymity.
> Our source for the RIAA meeting allegations used a
> hotmail address which resolved to a Safeweb IP
> address. However, I don't see on Safeweb's site
> an anonymizing mail service. Is there such a service
> by Safeweb or does it sell an anonymizing e-mail
> program?
> 
> The source last wrote that "multiple" Safeweb protection
> was used to cloak the messages. Is there a way to chain
> Hotmail to Safeweb, or some other way to "multiple"
> Safeway protection as preamble to Hotmail?
> 
> It would be intriguing to learn that the source is
> connected to Safeweb itself, or Safeweb's backers.
> 
> 
> 

Likely just somebody using the Hotmail web interface via Safeweb, 
possibly in turn through a Triangle Boy proxy.

You're last paragraph's supposition is interesting, but the whole RIAA 
thing looks more like an rtmark action, maybe. Which would be funded 
from within the ranks of Disney-Sony-AOL/TimeWarner-IG-Coca-Farben et 
al. Not DOD/CIA. Sure they could snoop, (but they'd have to be running 
some kind of heavy duty RC4 cracking engine for SSL targets. How 
vulnerable is RC4 to MITM attacks? Never mind, I'll go do my homework.) 
and they could certainly do traffic analysis, but odds are the cache is 
on a DOD network primarily so that they know with more confidence that 
nobody else has breached security. Analysis could reveal asset 
locations, etc. I'n guessing this is what they bought with their 
investment. Anyway, I'm going to set up a tboy server and play with it.

You want to some see devious shit, check out rtmark. This is the 
cointelpro arm of the bait-and-switch artists who give us RATM and the 
Matrix on the one hand, and DMCA et al. on the other.  Not that the RIAA 
wouldn't hold this kind of secret meeting, but they're all on the same 
wavelength and don't need to. .

jbdigriz
--
"rip off this book" :-)





From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Sat Oct 13 12:50:59 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 12:50:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: bush wheels out the nukes
In-Reply-To: <446F2832-C00C-11D5-B3E2-0050E439C473@got.net> from "Tim
  May" at Oct 13, 2001 11:58:19 AM
Message-ID: <200110131951.f9DJp0N21197@artifact.psychedelic.net>


Tim wrote:

> Beside the point. I was commenting on the paranoid/misinformed rant that 
> "use of bunker bunkers" means "use of nuclear bunker busters."

Someone probably typed "Bunker Buster" into a search engine, and got
a lot of hits on the B61-11.

>> The junior Bush is very fond of small tactical nukes,

> You know this how?

In April, the media reported that the US was considering development of a
new small tactical nuke specifically tailored for use against "rogue
dictators" hiding in underground bunkers or heavily fortified command
centers, in violation of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and the
Comprehensive Test Ban treaty.

These would be used for, in the words of the director of Sandia,
"deterrence in the non-Russian world."

Since such research is currently illegal, Congress has tacked something
onto the 2001 Defense Authorization Bill mandating a study by DOE and DOD
into small-scale nuclear weapons use against dictators hiding in "hard and
deepy buried targets."

George W. Bush, John Warner, and Wayne Allard, are the culprits here. 

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From unsafeweb at hotmail.com  Sat Oct 13 11:09:58 2001
From: unsafeweb at hotmail.com (anon go)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 14:09:58 -0400
Subject: Safeweb to Hotmail Loop
Message-ID: 


Yes, our RIAA leaker used a Safeweb to Hotmail loop
to send the messages, as shown with this sample.

The technique appears common: Hotmail lists a
slew of Hotmail nyms with variations on Safeweb
and Anongo which can be seen by trying to sign
up with either nym. It could be Safeweb and Anongo
have reserved all of them but probably not likely,
merely that a number of folks have already figured
out what I'm just learning.

One unexpected oddity: I signed up with the nym
"unsafeweb" but the nym on messages sent from
this account is, as shown, "anon go," or was on
a previous test message. What will happen on this
message remains to be seen. Perhaps that is a
feature, but my source for the RIAA allegations
did not have "anon go" as a nym.

Let me disclose another clue: the final loop was
through a yahoo account, which resolved to Safeweb.
How many loops occurred in the full chain is yet
to be determined.


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From adam at cypherspace.org  Sat Oct 13 06:57:25 2001
From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 14:57:25 +0100
Subject: RIAA Safeweb Proxy ID
In-Reply-To: <200110131313.f9DDDJf01289@slack.lne.com>; from
  mikecabot@fastcircle.com on Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 09:14:13AM -0400
References: <200110131313.f9DDDJf01289@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <20011013145725.A6289477@exeter.ac.uk>


On Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 09:14:13AM -0400, mikecabot at fastcircle.com wrote:
> To get back to the RIAA point, though:
>
> What you're looking at are HTTP headers (what you'd see if you
> Telnet'ed to port 80 on Safeweb's web servers). Again, this won't get
> you any closer to identifying the path that someone took to get to
> Safeweb, and therefore, you cannot identify a target via this type of
> information.
>
> (The more interesting point would be: can Safeweb do so? The answer
> is "you bet." The only thing they would have to do is classic
> log/connection-time synchronization analysis, and that would tell
> them the connection details of the user in question. But this can
> only be done by Safeweb or someone with access to Safeweb logs.)

A carnivore box at Safewb would work also for tying browsing habits to
users.  Think Safeweb with their CIA ties would balk at installing
one?  Do they already have one installed?

Adam




From auto301094 at hushmail.com  Sat Oct 13 15:13:06 2001
From: auto301094 at hushmail.com (auto301094 at hushmail.com)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 15:13:06 -0700
Subject: bush wheels out the nukes
Message-ID: <200110132213.f9DMD6v88721@mailserver1.hushmail.com>

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From infograb at mail.com  Sat Oct 13 13:16:29 2001
From: infograb at mail.com (DotInfoCentral.com)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 15:16:29 -0500
Subject: .INFO is now live
Message-ID: <200110132016.PAA29042@einstein.ssz.com>


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"While .com names hold the most prestige, the next frontier is the new suffixes -.info, .biz, and .pro likely to become available later this year..." -BUSINESSWEEK MAGAZINE, April 16, 2001.

DotInfoCentral.com is one of the leading .INFO registration services and is currently informing members of the Internet community of this important, landmark event. If you know of anyone who currently owns a .com name but has not registered for the .info equivalent yet, please advise them as soon as possible. DotInfoCentral.com also offers easy 3-step pre-registration services for the upcoming .BIZ, .NAME, and .PRO domains which are scheduled for launch very soon.

#######################################################################
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#######################################################################





From saeq at gmx.net  Sat Oct 13 15:32:00 2001
From: saeq at gmx.net (Luthor Blisset)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 15:32:00 -0700
Subject: Safeweb Hotmail Question
In-Reply-To: <3BC86716.5040108@dragonsweb.org>
References: <200110131411.KAA29044@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011013145602.00a3b940@pop.gmx.net>


At 12:08 PM 10/13/01 -0400, somebody with the password to 
jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org wrote:

>You're last paragraph's supposition is interesting, but the whole RIAA 
>thing looks more like an rtmark action, maybe. Which would be funded  from 
>within the ranks of Disney-Sony-AOL/TimeWarner-IG-Coca-Farben et al. Not 
>DOD/CIA.

[...]

>You want to some see devious shit, check out rtmark. This is the 
>cointelpro arm of the bait-and-switch artists who give us RATM and the 
>Matrix on the one hand, and DMCA et al. on the other.

>         Exactly how, pray tell, do you figure that rtmark (and i presume 
> you mean the rtmark.com people) has any relationship to 
> Disney-Sony-AOL/TimeWarner-IG-Coca-Farben-et-al other then one of 
> near-violent opposition?
         Last time I checked, rtmark made some of the most clever 
anti-corporate propaganda I've ever seen. I'm extremely skeptical of any 
claims that they are part of what they seem to so diligently oppose.

-- Luthor //Remembering is copying and copying is THEFT




From remailer at aarg.net  Sat Oct 13 16:40:02 2001
From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 16:40:02 -0700
Subject: F.B.I. Did Not Test Letter to NBC or Immediately Notify City
  Hall
Message-ID: <0c8ed5b9296c6742c9d9f9894a6d6ca0@aarg.net>


http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/13/nyregion/13HAND.html

F.B.I. Did Not Test Letter to NBC or Immediately Notify City HallBy JENNIFER
STEINHAUER and JIM DWYERAlthough the F.B.I. was notified on Sept. 25 about
suspicious letters sent to NBC, neither the letters, nor the powder residue
inside them were tested until nearly two weeks later, and then only because
a private doctor notified city public health officials about a troubling skin
condition in the news assistant who had handled the mail, officials acknowledged
yesterday.In fact, the F.B.I. laboratory neither performed nor sought any tests
on the powder or the skin samples taken from the employee, identified as Erin
M. O'Connor, a 38-year-old assistant to Tom Brokaw."That, unfortunately, did
not take place," said Barry W. Mawn, assistant director in charge of the F.B.I.'s
New York office.He also said the agents had intended to interview Ms. O'Connor
soon after they learned of the case, but did not, for reasons he did not explain.F.B.I.
officials said investigators picked up the envelopes on Sept. 26, the day after
NBC security officials called the agency. New York City officials were not
informed of the preliminary inquiry until days later.Indeed if the Health Department
had not been alerted to the case by a private doctor, it might well have hibernated
in the F.B.I. files.Mr. Mawn said yesterday that the agency had to investigate
dozens of threats, scares and false alarms, and that is how this case was initially
treated. Since Sept. 11, when the two planes slammed into the World Trade Center,
city and federal law enforcement officials have received hundreds of reports
of menace and foul play ranging from bomb threats to chemical attack scares.The
discovery of a case of apparently deliberate anthrax poisoning in the heart
of New York City is just the latest in a string of terrifying events that have
challenged the law enforcement and health care infrastructure in the last month.
It pushed health care officials to nail down a pathogen that most of them had
no experience with.And it once again tested the fragile relationship that has
always existed between the New York City Police Department and the F.B.I.,
agencies that are forced to work in tandem on unprecedented and constantly
evolving crimes."Information sharing between the F.B.I. and the N.Y.P.D. has
always been poor," said one person who has worked closely with both agencies.
"There is often a lack of willingness on the F.B.I.'s part to share information,
although it is getting better. As they move forward, clearly the F.B.I. is
going to have to be more forthcoming."In this case, Mr. Mawn said, the gravity
of the situation was not fully appreciated by the federal authorities until
recently.On Sept. 25., Ms. O'Connor handled a letter postmarked from St. Petersburg,
Fla., filled with white powder, according to law enforcement officials. She
also handled a second letter containing a sandy substance. Network officials,
immediately suspicious, called the F.B.I., which picked up the letters the
next day.Then, the agency began to prepare a cover letter for its own laboratory
indicating that the substances needed to be tested, but the letter was never
completed and the evidence was never sent from the F.B.I.'s office in New York
to its laboratory, said Joseph Valiquette, an F.B.I. spokesman.He added that
some delays happened because investigators were unable to interview Ms. O'Connor
to supplement the cover letter. "We wanted to send a complete package to the
laboratory," said Mr. Valiquette. So none of it was sent. Mr. Valiquette said
he did not know why the F.B.I. could not speak with Ms. O'Connor, who works
in Rockefeller Plaza and lives in the metropolitan area.On Sept. 28, Ms. O'Connor
developed a strange sore on her chest. Nervous, she went to see Dr. Richard
Fried, a Manhattan infectious disease specialist, said Dr. Annetta Kimball,
the doctor covering for Dr. Fried, who could not be reached last night.Armed
with the description of the rash  which she described as central scarring
surrounded by a lot of swelling  the doctor likely consulted his textbooks
to nail down what was going on. Dr. Kimball said that Dr. Fried suspected that
his patient had been exposed to anthrax, and immediately prescribed Cipro."There
is a good chance he had never seen anthrax before," said Dr. Kimball. "This
is New York City, not an agricultural area." He also took cultures from a wound
Ms. O'Connor developed, but those swabs were negative for anthrax, she said.At
some point, officials and Dr. Kimball said, the patient visited a dermatologist.One
of those doctors notified the city's Health Department on Oct. 6 of a possible
case of anthrax. The city has among the most sophisticated epidemiologists
and public health labs in the country.Mr. Valiquette said that the F.B.I. learned
from the city's Health Department that "this was an issue." The substance eventually
made its way to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta,
which went to unusual lengths to identify it. There was little powder to work
with, and a power failure in the lab halted the work for nearly a day, said
Dr. James M. Hughes of the C.D.C."None of this ever did go to the F.B.I. lab,"
he said.One of the Ms. O'Connor's doctors ordered a skin biopsy, which was
sent to the C.D.C. But by the time the tissue was taken, the patient had begun
taking an antibiotic to counter possible anthrax. As intended, that drug degraded
the cellular structure of the bacteria. On Wednesday, the city was informed
of the case under investigation. The C.D.C. was able to identify the spores
of anthrax, and officials were informed of the results early yesterday morning.Mayor
Rudolph W. Giuliani announced the first confirmed case of anthrax yesterday
morning at NBC.He was described by a person who was with him early yesterday
as being "three feet off the ground" when he learned that the F.B.I. had not
brought word of the developments to city officials earlier.Mr. Mawn acknowledged
that investigators revisited the case after learning of the concerns of the
health officials. "A second notification came through to the Department of
Health, at which time the evidence response people and the F.B.I. also became
involved with it. It was initially assigned to two agents that just covered
the lead. And upon that, it was immediately submitted for tests. As you know
and as the mayor has talked about, those tests were initially negative."Yesterday,
The New York Times received a letter filled with white powder that was addressed
to a reporter, Judith Miller. The Times notified the mayor's office, and city
and F.B.I. officials responded immediately. Tests for radioactive and chemical
substances were negative, and results from a more definitive test for anthrax
DNA by state and federal labs were expected over the weekend.Coordinating the
efforts of the various law enforcement and public health officials is proving
tricky  there have been dozens of bomb and other threats around the city since
Sept. 11, and the city, which investigates each case, cannot inform the public
or other agencies about each one. Just yesterday, the city heard of about a
half dozen cases of suspicious powder or envelopes that it is investigating,
the mayor said."If there was a problem, it was in the way they first investigated
it," one Police Department official said of the F.B.I.'s performance.But there
was some concern last night among health care experts about the delay in the
testing. The inability of the agency to identify the substance was "not very
comforting," said one C.D.C. official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity.
"That is a little disappointing, to say the least."Anthrax spores, if kept
under appropriate conditions  sealed and unexposed to lots of light  can
be preserved for years, said Jerome M. Hauer, the former director of the Office
of Emergency Management and currently managing director of Kroll Inc., an investigation
firm. He added: "You don't want them sitting around. In this environment, you
hope there is good information sharing, especially when it involves biological
agents."




From ISPService at another.com  Sat Oct 13 16:58:56 2001
From: ISPService at another.com (ISPService at another.com)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 16:58:56
Subject: Half Price Cigarettes !  Guaranteed Delivery !!
Message-ID: <186.844352.571448@server>


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From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Oct 13 17:05:08 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 17:05:08 -0700
Subject: WH = FBI = VP
Message-ID: <200110132111.RAA16116@blount.mail.mindspring.net>


VisualRoute shows that pinging whitehouse.gov produces 
exactly the same path as pinging fbi.gov, both ending in 
Los Angeles. Is that where Cheney is holed up in the Getty 
Combustible Bunker? Sniff the LA impure air, is that La 
Brea tar or Halliburton grease?

Pinging the WH is will shortly be a terrorist act warns Patriot, 
so better hurry before the bush hammers john henry.

Anthrac, quack, quack.




From saeq at gmx.net  Sat Oct 13 17:23:10 2001
From: saeq at gmx.net (Luthor Blisset)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 17:23:10 -0700
Subject: Safeweb Hotmail Question
In-Reply-To: <3BC8CE7D.2090501@dragonsweb.org>
References: <200110131411.KAA29044@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20011013145602.00a3b940@pop.gmx.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011013171404.00a3bcb0@pop.gmx.net>


At 07:30 PM 10/13/01 -0400, jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org wrote:

>I'm digging around for the copy of the "Deconstructing Beck" spam that I 
>archived somewhere, which clearly lists a Geffen publicist encouraging, 
>and I quote, "ripping off" the aforesaid artist, whose ROI was apparently 
>slipping at the time. '97, I think.
>
>Maybe that was a hoax, too, but that's the kind of thing that can get you 
>hoist by your own petard.


         Hoax? Clever argument in support of fair use in the face of 
copyright, more like. Try http://www.rtmark.com/deconstructingbeck.html

>-- Luthor //Remembering is copying and copying is THEFT




From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Sat Oct 13 17:29:17 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 17:29:17 -0700
Subject: F.B.I. Did Not Test Letter to NBC or Immediately Notify
  City Hall
In-Reply-To: <0c8ed5b9296c6742c9d9f9894a6d6ca0@aarg.net>; from
  remailer@aarg.net on Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 04:40:02PM -0700
References: <0c8ed5b9296c6742c9d9f9894a6d6ca0@aarg.net>
Message-ID: <20011013172916.B1194@navel.introspect>


on Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 04:40:02PM -0700, AARG! Anonymous (remailer at aarg.net)
wrote:
> http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/13/nyregion/13HAND.html

That was utterly unreadable.  Please format posted material such that
it's legible.

    October 13, 2001

    F.B.I. Did Not Test Letter to NBC or Immediately Notify
    City Hall

    By JENNIFER STEINHAUER and JIM DWYER

    Although the F.B.I. was notified on Sept. 25 about suspicious
    letters sent to NBC, neither the letters, nor the powder residue
    inside them were tested until nearly two weeks later, and then only
    because a private doctor notified city public health officials about
    a troubling skin condition in the news assistant who had handled the
    mail, officials acknowledged yesterday.

    In fact, the F.B.I. laboratory neither performed nor sought any
    tests on the powder or the skin samples taken from the employee,
    identified as Erin M. O'Connor, a 38-year-old assistant to Tom
    Brokaw.

    "That, unfortunately, did not take place," said Barry W.  Mawn,
    assistant director in charge of the F.B.I.'s New York office.

    He also said the agents had intended to interview Ms.  O'Connor soon
    after they learned of the case, but did not, for reasons he did not
    explain.

    F.B.I. officials said investigators picked up the envelopes on Sept.
    26, the day after NBC security officials called the agency. New York
    City officials were not informed of the preliminary inquiry until
    days later.

    Indeed if the Health Department had not been alerted to the case by
    a private doctor, it might well have hibernated in the F.B.I. files.

    Mr. Mawn said yesterday that the agency had to investigate dozens of
    threats, scares and false alarms, and that is how this case was
    initially treated. Since Sept. 11, when the two planes slammed into
    the World Trade Center, city and federal law enforcement officials
    have received hundreds of reports of menace and foul play ranging
    from bomb threats to chemical attack scares.

    The discovery of a case of apparently deliberate anthrax poisoning
    in the heart of New York City is just the latest in a string of
    terrifying events that have challenged the law enforcement and
    health care infrastructure in the last month. It pushed health care
    officials to nail down a pathogen that most of them had no
    experience with.

    And it once again tested the fragile relationship that has always
    existed between the New York City Police Department and the F.B.I.,
    agencies that are forced to work in tandem on unprecedented and
    constantly evolving crimes.

    "Information sharing between the F.B.I. and the N.Y.P.D.  has always
    been poor," said one person who has worked closely with both
    agencies. "There is often a lack of willingness on the F.B.I.'s part
    to share information, although it is getting better. As they move
    forward, clearly the F.B.I. is going to have to be more
    forthcoming."

    In this case, Mr. Mawn said, the gravity of the situation was not
    fully appreciated by the federal authorities until recently.

    On Sept. 25., Ms. O'Connor handled a letter postmarked from St.
    Petersburg, Fla., filled with white powder, according to law
    enforcement officials. She also handled a second letter containing a
    sandy substance. Network officials, immediately suspicious, called
    the F.B.I., which picked up the letters the next day.

    Then, the agency began to prepare a cover letter for its own
    laboratory indicating that the substances needed to be tested, but
    the letter was never completed and the evidence was never sent from
    the F.B.I.'s office in New York to its laboratory, said Joseph
    Valiquette, an F.B.I. spokesman.

    He added that some delays happened because investigators were unable
    to interview Ms. O'Connor to supplement the cover letter. "We wanted
    to send a complete package to the laboratory," said Mr. Valiquette.
    So none of it was sent. Mr. Valiquette said he did not know why the
    F.B.I.  could not speak with Ms. O'Connor, who works in Rockefeller
    Plaza and lives in the metropolitan area.

    On Sept. 28, Ms. O'Connor developed a strange sore on her chest.
    Nervous, she went to see Dr. Richard Fried, a Manhattan infectious
    disease specialist, said Dr.  Annetta Kimball, the doctor covering
    for Dr. Fried, who could not be reached last night.

    Armed with the description of the rash   which she described as
    central scarring surrounded by a lot of swelling   the doctor likely
    consulted his textbooks to nail down what was going on. Dr. Kimball
    said that Dr.  Fried suspected that his patient had been exposed to
    anthrax, and immediately prescribed Cipro.

    "There is a good chance he had never seen anthrax before," said Dr.
    Kimball. "This is New York City, not an agricultural area." He also
    took cultures from a wound Ms. O'Connor developed, but those swabs
    were negative for anthrax, she said.

    At some point, officials and Dr. Kimball said, the patient visited a
    dermatologist.

    One of those doctors notified the city's Health Department on Oct. 6
    of a possible case of anthrax. The city has among the most
    sophisticated epidemiologists and public health labs in the country.

    Mr. Valiquette said that the F.B.I. learned from the city's Health
    Department that "this was an issue." The substance eventually made
    its way to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in
    Atlanta, which went to unusual lengths to identify it. There was
    little powder to work with, and a power failure in the lab halted
    the work for nearly a day, said Dr. James M. Hughes of the C.D.C.

    "None of this ever did go to the F.B.I. lab," he said.

    One of the Ms. O'Connor's doctors ordered a skin biopsy, which was
    sent to the C.D.C. But by the time the tissue was taken, the patient
    had begun taking an antibiotic to counter possible anthrax. As
    intended, that drug degraded the cellular structure of the bacteria.
    On Wednesday, the city was informed of the case under investigation.
    The C.D.C. was able to identify the spores of anthrax, and officials
    were informed of the results early yesterday morning.

    Mayor Rudolph W. Giuliani announced the first confirmed case of
    anthrax yesterday morning at NBC.

    He was described by a person who was with him early yesterday as
    being "three feet off the ground" when he learned that the F.B.I.
    had not brought word of the developments to city officials earlier.

    Mr. Mawn acknowledged that investigators revisited the case after
    learning of the concerns of the health officials. "A second
    notification came through to the Department of Health, at which time
    the evidence response people and the F.B.I. also became involved
    with it. It was initially assigned to two agents that just covered
    the lead. And upon that, it was immediately submitted for tests. As
    you know and as the mayor has talked about, those tests were
    initially negative."

    Yesterday, The New York Times received a letter filled with white
    powder that was addressed to a reporter, Judith Miller. The Times
    notified the mayor's office, and city and F.B.I. officials responded
    immediately.  Tests for radioactive and chemical substances were
    negative, and results from a more definitive test for anthrax DNA by
    state and federal labs were expected over the weekend.

    Coordinating the efforts of the various law enforcement and public
    health officials is proving tricky   there have been dozens of bomb
    and other threats around the city since Sept. 11, and the city,
    which investigates each case, cannot inform the public or other
    agencies about each one. Just yesterday, the city heard of about a
    half dozen cases of suspicious powder or envelopes that it is
    investigating, the mayor said.

    "If there was a problem, it was in the way they first investigated
    it," one Police Department official said of the F.B.I.'s
    performance.

    But there was some concern last night among health care experts
    about the delay in the testing. The inability of the agency to
    identify the substance was "not very comforting," said one C.D.C.
    official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity. "That is a little
    disappointing, to say the least."

    Anthrax spores, if kept under appropriate conditions sealed and
    unexposed to lots of light   can be preserved for years, said Jerome
    M. Hauer, the former director of the Office of Emergency Management
    and currently managing director of Kroll Inc., an investigation
    firm.  He added: "You don't want them sitting around. In this
    environment, you hope there is good information sharing, especially
    when it involves biological agents."


    Copyright 2001 The New York Times Company | Privacy Information

--
Karsten M. Self        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?             Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]




From schear at lvcm.com  Sat Oct 13 18:07:22 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 18:07:22 -0700
Subject: Anthrax Theater opens in San Jose
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011013180028.03e0d9c0@pop3.lvcm.com>


UA flight 1669 from Chicago landed safely about 3:00 pm.  Initial reports 
were of a white powdery substance being released into the air ducts by a 
man of middle eastern decent.  The plane has been surrounded by hazmat 
crews.  The 80+ passengers are still aboard.  The air conditioning had been 
turned off (its in the 90s on the tarmac right now).

I local LE spokesman just got on to say there was no powdery substance 
released, but rather some confetti from a greeting card.  So why are the 
passengers still aboard?

steve




From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Oct 13 18:11:02 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 18:11:02 -0700
Subject: WH = FBI = VP
In-Reply-To: 
References: <200110132111.RAA16116@blount.mail.mindspring.net>
  <200110132111.RAA16116@blount.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <200110132217.SAA18963@blount.mail.mindspring.net>


That's correct, the trace legend says for both:

  "It is a HTTP server (running AkamaiGHost)."

But why seemingly terminate in Los Angeles? Is that a cloaking 
device? Usually when a final hop is blocked VisualRoute reports
the block, but not in these cases. Both traces' final two hops:

209.244.10.42 | gigabitethernet6-0.ipcolo1.LosAngeles1.Level3.net | Los
Angeles, CA | 
63.215.64.30 | www.whitehouse.gov | [no location shown] |

209.244.10.42 | gigabitethernet6-0.ipcolo1.LosAngeles1.Level3.net | Los
Angeles, CA | 
63.215.64.30 | www.fbi.gov | [no location shown] |

The final IP address does not appear in a DNS lookup for either 
of the .gov domains. Whitehouse.gov pulls up the Executive Office 
of the President, and fbi.gov an FBI information processing 
office.

Is that Praha CZ, or Praha AR?

Fergus McKay wrote:
>I believe that they have been Akamai'd - based on conversations in 
>Praha last week with their guys.




From fogstorm at mac.com  Sat Oct 13 18:18:45 2001
From: fogstorm at mac.com (FogStorm)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 18:18:45 -0700
Subject: Five more test positive for anthrax antibodies in Florida
Message-ID: <200110140118.f9E1IeR04691@smtp-out.mac.com>


http://www.miami.com/herald/digdocs/098906.htm

"Five additional employees of American Media Inc. in Boca Raton have 
tested positive for anthrax antibodies in their blood stream, but 
officials cautioned Saturday the tests are preliminary and more blood 
tests are being done."




From oa at acm.org  Sat Oct 13 18:31:57 2001
From: oa at acm.org (Optimizzin Al-gorithm)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 18:31:57 -0700
Subject: Amerikan sickness
Message-ID: <3BC8EB0C.1086614F@acm.org>


Kid played with the TV channels.  Left it on Sen. Lieberman sucking
"Rev" Schiller's cock in his cry$tal cathedral.  Noting that their God
will will make them victorious.

Flag waving does not cure culture rot.




From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Sat Oct 13 18:40:20 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 18:40:20 -0700
Subject: Anthrax Theater opens in San Jose
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011013180028.03e0d9c0@pop3.lvcm.com>; from
  schear@lvcm.com on Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 06:07:22PM -0700
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011013180028.03e0d9c0@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: <20011013184020.B2688@navel.introspect>


on Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 06:07:22PM -0700, Steve Schear (schear at lvcm.com)
wrote:
> UA flight 1669 from Chicago landed safely about 3:00 pm.  Initial
> reports were of a white powdery substance being released into the air
> ducts by a man of middle eastern decent.  The plane has been
> surrounded by hazmat crews.  The 80+ passengers are still aboard.  The
> air conditioning had been turned off (its in the 90s on the tarmac
> right now).
>
> I local LE spokesman just got on to say there was no powdery substance
> released, but rather some confetti from a greeting card.  So why are
> the passengers still aboard?

URL:  SJ Mercury News, source:  AP.  Also a UAL London-DC flight.

    http://www0.mercurycenter.com/local/center/sjplane1014.htm

    Plane quarantined at San Jose International Airport

    SAN JOSE, Calif. (AP) -- About 80 passengers were held aboard a
    United Airlines jet that arrived Saturday afternoon from Chicago
    after a man reportedly stood up in mid-flight and released a powdery
    substance into the air ventilation system.

    Police, FBI and emergency crews were at the scene setting up a
    decontamination tent for the passengers of United Airlines Flight
    1669 from Chicago.

    ``There was apparently a report of a middle eastern male who went to
    the rear of the plane and opened up an envelope. It had some powder
    in it and it went through the air duct system,'' said San Jose
    police department spokesman Rubens Dalaison.

    The witness and the man who allegedly dispersed the powder were
    taken off the plane and were being decontaminated at about 5:00 p.m.
    Fire department personnel took air samples from inside the United
    Airlines Airbus 319 craft to determine if any toxic agents were
    present, Dalaison said.

    Airport spokesman Jim Peterson said someone from flight crew radioed
    ahead to the San Jose tower at about 2:30 p.m. and told them that a
    witness reported seeing a man open up an envelope and disperse an
    unknown substance into an air vent.

    The incident came as anthrax scares spread throughout the United
    States. In Boca Raton, Fla., five more tabloid employees at the
    American Media Inc. building tested positive for exposure to
    anthrax, a company spokesman announced Saturday.

    At Washington's Dulles International Airport, a spokeswoman said a
    powdery substance found in a restroom on a United Airlines plane
    from London was being tested at an Army laboratory in Maryland.

    Spokeswoman Tara Hamilton said the flight was met Saturday by a
    hazardous materials team and FBI agents, who determined that 17
    people out of 216 passengers and 14 crew members had used the
    bathroom.

    The 17 passengers were detained and preliminary decontamination
    steps were taken on them, which Hamilton said consisted for most
    part of washing their hands.

--
Karsten M. Self        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?             Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]




From fogstorm at mac.com  Sat Oct 13 18:49:06 2001
From: fogstorm at mac.com (FogStorm)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 18:49:06 -0700
Subject: Anthrax Theater opens in San Jose
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011013180028.03e0d9c0@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: <200110140148.f9E1mnR09825@smtp-out.mac.com>


http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/ap/20011013/us/airplane_powder_2.html




From honig at sprynet.com  Sat Oct 13 18:51:01 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 18:51:01 -0700
Subject: on the mexican radio.. ciproxolina
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011013185101.0097f870@pop.sprynet.com>


Spanish TV station on.  They're still playing the Taliban (tsk tsk) and
translating into Spanish.  I don't speak spanish so I am not incited
by the subliminal messages to go jihad a bunch of people.

But then they show what I take to be americans visiting mexico to 
buy "ciproxolina".  Haven't seen that on gringo tube.




From measl at mfn.org  Sat Oct 13 17:00:21 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 19:00:21 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [EMED-L] [Hazmat-WMD] Anthrax - When do we worry? (fwd)
Message-ID: 



This same thread just had a posting from a practitioner who was met with
"we don't care, go somewhere else" by several agencies (including the Fat
Dumb & Ignorant) when trying to report a possible case.

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 19:47:22 -0400
From: Richard Paley 
Reply-To: EMED-L -- a list for emergency medicine practitioners.
    
To: EMED-L at ITSSRV1.UCSF.EDU
Subject: Re: [EMED-L] [Hazmat-WMD] Anthrax - When do we worry?

In Florida, the state department of health is telling us not to do any
cultures for Anthrax.  We are to refer asymptomatic patients who sent at
least one hour in the AMI building to the health department for interviewing
and testing
----- Original Message -----
From: "douglas yoshida" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 5:16 PM
Subject: Re: [EMED-L] [Hazmat-WMD] Anthrax - When do we worry?


> Prior to the 12th I know of no one in our EDs( NYU and Bellevue) that
treated any
> one with antibiotics. Now that there is anthrax documented in New York,
things
> will changed.
>
> The Department of Health's official recommendation is to treat only the
NBC
> employees who were on the 3rd, 7th floor or in the mailroom on Sept. 18th
or 25th.
> Asymptomatic people were being treated on site with cipro and had nasal
cultures
> taken. Patients with any "symptoms" were being referred to the Bellevue
ED. I
> treated  and discharged one NBC employee who had a runny nose and sore
throat
> (nothing else) with a nasal swab and levofloxin who "probably" was on
those
> floors. I saw another person who works for a magazine publisher who got a
white
> powder on her hands hours before the NBC exposure was announced. She was
already
> on levofloxin for a a sinus infection so I swabbed her nose and notified
the
> on-site CDC person. For everyone else without the hint of credible
exposure I have
> been treating with reassurance that their rash or cold is not anthrax,
though what
> a credible exposure is will probably change if more cases/sites arise.
Other ED
> attendings have been taking nasal swabs of non-NBC employees who give a
vague
> history of exposure (e.g. there was white dust in the taxi cab driven by a
dark
> skinned man).
>
> I could find no data that states how sensitive or specific a nasal swab is
for
> anthrax exposure, does any one know?
>
> Douglas Yoshida MD
> Bellevue and NYU hospitals
>
> "Henry J. Siegelson, MD, FACEP" wrote:
>
> > I have had to deal with several individuals and families that were
worried
> > that they might have been anthrax victims.  THey either visited Florida
> > recently or had  an upper respiratory infection.
> >
> > What is everyone doing to workup these patients?
> >
> > How are you advising treatment?
> >
> > Henry J. Siegelson, MD, FACEP
> > Atlanta
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 11:25 AM
> > Subject: [Hazmat-WMD] Anthrax - When do we worry?
> >
> > > I think it's time we started talking about how to evaluate whether or
not
> > > this anthrax business is a big deal or not. Here are some things that
> > would
> > > make me worry:
> > >
> > > 1. The various samples are genetically similar.
> > > 2. Similar handwriting on the letters.
> > > 3. Brown powder vice white starts showing up. (Anthrax is usually
brown.
> > You
> > > can find any white powder in any kitchen.)
> > > 4. More people actually get sick (NOT mass psychogenic illness).
> > >
> > > What do the rest of you think?
> > >
> > > Vance Bennett
> > > Hazmat Curmudgeon
> > >
> > > Post message.............Hazmat-WMD at Yahoogroups.com
> > > Subscribe................Hazmat-WMD-subscribe at Yahoogroups.com
> > > UnSubscribe..............Hazmat-WMD-unsubscribe at Yahoogroups.com
> > > HazMat-WMD Archives......http://Yahoogroups.com/archive/Hazmat-WMD
> > > Common Files & Folders...http://Yahoogroups.com/files/Hazmat-WMD
> > > HazMat Related Bookmarks.http://Yahoogroups.com/links/Hazmat-WMD
> > >
> > > Forward info about this list to anyone in the HazMat-WMD field.
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> >
> > To unsubscribe, send the command  "SIGNOFF EMED-L" to
LISTSERV at ITSSRV1.UCSF.EDU
>
> To unsubscribe, send the command  "SIGNOFF EMED-L" to
LISTSERV at ITSSRV1.UCSF.EDU

To unsubscribe, send the command  "SIGNOFF EMED-L" to LISTSERV at ITSSRV1.UCSF.EDU




From mikecabot at fastcircle.com  Sat Oct 13 16:04:40 2001
From: mikecabot at fastcircle.com (mikecabot at fastcircle.com)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 19:04:40 -0400
Subject: WH = FBI = VP
Message-ID: <200110132303.f9DN3ff03584@slack.lne.com>


More likely he's holed up at Akamai in Cambridge, MA :)

(Both the White House and the FBI are using Akamai to cache and serve 
their web pages.... no relation to the caching issues being discussed 
with Safeweb, this is totally benign and similar to what a lot of 
other high-traffic sites do, like CNN.COM, etc.)

Mike

> Original Message from Sat, 13 Oct 2001 17:05:08 -0700:> 
> VisualRoute shows that pinging whitehouse.gov produces 
> exactly the same path as pinging fbi.gov, both ending in 
> Los Angeles. Is that where Cheney is holed up in the Getty 
> Combustible Bunker? Sniff the LA impure air, is that La 
> Brea tar or Halliburton grease?
> 
> Pinging the WH is will shortly be a terrorist act warns Patriot, 
> so better hurry before the bush hammers john henry.
> 
> Anthrac, quack, quack.
> 
> 
> 
> 

_______________________________________________________________________________
WANT YOUR OWN FREE AND SECURE WEB EMAIL ADDRESS?

Visit http://www.fastcircle.com 




From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Oct 13 19:09:03 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 19:09:03 -0700
Subject: WH = FBI = VP
In-Reply-To: <200110131903.tshi1q.dfj.37kbi1v@osgood.mail.mindspring.net
  >
Message-ID: <200110132315.TAA12216@blount.mail.mindspring.net>


Is it true Bush wears a Kevlar vest when he parades to
and from his chopper for photo ops? All the time he
is in public? Is there a lighter more effective material
than Kevlar, for a sleeping bag on AF1? What protection 
could possibly be effective during the CN trip what with 
all the dumb-tech guided missles going berzerk lately?




From measl at mfn.org  Sat Oct 13 17:09:22 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 19:09:22 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Bin Laden's Group Threatens Bush, Others Leaders; Warns Muslims in
 U.S., Britain to Avoid Planes
Message-ID: 



>From http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/STRIKE_MAIN.html

"... Abu Ghaith singled out President Bush; his father, former President
George H.W. Bush; former President Bill Clinton; British Prime Minister
Tony Blair; and Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon."

	Looks like Usama is legitimately trying to rid the world of Evil!  
Let's wish him the best of luck!!!

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org  Sat Oct 13 16:30:05 2001
From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 19:30:05 -0400
Subject: Safeweb Hotmail Question
References: <200110131411.KAA29044@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20011013145602.00a3b940@pop.gmx.net>
Message-ID: <3BC8CE7D.2090501@dragonsweb.org>


Luthor Blisset wrote:

> At 12:08 PM 10/13/01 -0400, somebody with the password to 
> jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org wrote:
> 
>> You're last paragraph's supposition is interesting, but the whole RIAA 
>> thing looks more like an rtmark action, maybe. Which would be funded  
>> from within the ranks of Disney-Sony-AOL/TimeWarner-IG-Coca-Farben et 
>> al. Not DOD/CIA.
> 
> 
> [...]
> 
>> You want to some see devious shit, check out rtmark. This is the 
>> cointelpro arm of the bait-and-switch artists who give us RATM and the 
>> Matrix on the one hand, and DMCA et al. on the other.
> 
> 
>>         Exactly how, pray tell, do you figure that rtmark (and i 
>> presume you mean the rtmark.com people) has any relationship to 
>> Disney-Sony-AOL/TimeWarner-IG-Coca-Farben-et-al other then one of 
>> near-violent opposition?
> 
>         Last time I checked, rtmark made some of the most clever 
> anti-corporate propaganda I've ever seen. I'm extremely skeptical of any 
> claims that they are part of what they seem to so diligently oppose.
> 
> -- Luthor //Remembering is copying and copying is THEFT
> 
> 

I'm digging around for the copy of the "Deconstructing Beck" spam that I 
archived somewhere, which clearly lists a Geffen publicist encouraging, 
and I quote, "ripping off" the aforesaid artist, whose ROI was 
apparently slipping at the time. '97, I think.

Maybe that was a hoax, too, but that's the kind of thing that can get 
you hoist by your own petard.

jbdigriz




From gbroiles at well.com  Sat Oct 13 19:46:11 2001
From: gbroiles at well.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 19:46:11 -0700
Subject: Anthrax Theater opens in San Jose
In-Reply-To: <200110140148.f9E1mnR09825@smtp-out.mac.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011013180028.03e0d9c0@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011013194417.035f49a0@bivens.parrhesia.com>


According to KPIX at 
,
the mysterious substance released on the Chicago - San Jose flight was 
confetti in a greeting card, and there is no N/B/C danger.


--
Greg Broiles
gbroiles at well.com
"We have found and closed the thing you watch us with." -- New Delhi street kids




From drevil at sidereal.kz  Sat Oct 13 13:29:05 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil)
Date: 13 Oct 2001 20:29:05 -0000
Subject: Paper tigers II
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011013002745.02ec7e30@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com>
	(message from Reese on Sat, 13 Oct 2001 00:30:03 -1000)
References: 
  <4.3.2.7.2.20011013002745.02ec7e30@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20011013202905.14405.qmail@sidereal.kz>


> At 08:19 AM 10/13/01 +0000, Dr. Evil wrote:
>  >They are not a hoax, not at all.  However, contrary to the rumors
>  >flying around, they are not at all related to the events of 9/11.  You
>  >have to look someplace further away than Afghanistan to find the
>  >source.  Hint: why do you think it is taking them so long to analyze
>  >the DNA?  BECAUSE IT ISN'T FROM EARTH!
> 
> Put the crack pipe down and get some fresh air, you need it.

Yes.... yes... I would like to put the crack pipe down, but I don't
remember which direction down is.  Can I get there from here?

> Do the world a favor, call artillery into your location and
> stay there to make sure it arrives on target.

I am in a happy yurt in Antarctica, as I mentioned in my previous
email.  I have invited Senor Pablo Escobar to come over for penguin a
l'orange, flown in all the way from the North Pole.  I hope some
friend to join us in our happy frozen yurt, ja ja!




From tcmay at got.net  Sat Oct 13 20:30:30 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 20:30:30 -0700
Subject: House votes 339-79 to approve USA Act v2.0 "anti-terror"
  bill
In-Reply-To: <20011013103747.A13779@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: 


On Saturday, October 13, 2001, at 07:37 AM, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> http://www.wired.com/news/conflict/0,2100,47549,00.html
>
>    House Endorses Snoop Bill
>    By Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com)
>    2:00 a.m. Oct. 13, 2001 PDT
>    Democrats were the most strident critics of that decision. Barney
>    Frank (D-Massachusetts) said: "What we have today is an outrageous
>    procedure: A bill, drafted by a handful of people in secret, comes to
>    us without a committee review and immune to amendment."

But this is the way the best police states are established: quickly, out 
of the light of day, and with muted dissent.

It's what many of my friends have been hoping for. Only a complete 
fascist takeover can trigger the eventual collapse.


--Tim May
"You don't expect governments to obey the law because of some higher 
moral development. You expect them to obey the law because they know 
that if they don't, those who aren't shot will be hanged." - -Michael 
Shirley




From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org  Sat Oct 13 17:53:47 2001
From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 20:53:47 -0400
Subject: Safeweb Hotmail Question
References: <200110131411.KAA29044@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20011013145602.00a3b940@pop.gmx.net> <3BC8CE7D.2090501@dragonsweb.org>
Message-ID: <3BC8E21B.5010200@dragonsweb.org>


James B. DiGriz wrote:

> Luthor Blisset wrote:
> 
>> At 12:08 PM 10/13/01 -0400, somebody with the password to 
>> jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org wrote:
>>
>>> You're last paragraph's supposition is interesting, but the whole 
>>> RIAA thing looks more like an rtmark action, maybe. Which would be 
>>> funded  from within the ranks of 
>>> Disney-Sony-AOL/TimeWarner-IG-Coca-Farben et al. Not DOD/CIA.
>>
>>
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>> You want to some see devious shit, check out rtmark. This is the 
>>> cointelpro arm of the bait-and-switch artists who give us RATM and 
>>> the Matrix on the one hand, and DMCA et al. on the other.
>>
>>
>>
>>>         Exactly how, pray tell, do you figure that rtmark (and i 
>>> presume you mean the rtmark.com people) has any relationship to 
>>> Disney-Sony-AOL/TimeWarner-IG-Coca-Farben-et-al other then one of 
>>> near-violent opposition?
>>
>>
>>         Last time I checked, rtmark made some of the most clever 
>> anti-corporate propaganda I've ever seen. I'm extremely skeptical of 
>> any claims that they are part of what they seem to so diligently oppose.
>>
>> -- Luthor //Remembering is copying and copying is THEFT
>>
>>
> 
> I'm digging around for the copy of the "Deconstructing Beck" spam that I 
> archived somewhere, which clearly lists a Geffen publicist encouraging, 
> and I quote, "ripping off" the aforesaid artist, whose ROI was 
> apparently slipping at the time. '97, I think.
> 
> Maybe that was a hoax, too, but that's the kind of thing that can get 
> you hoist by your own petard.
> 
> jbdigriz
> 
> 

Ok, I can't find it right now, but there are copies of a slightly 
different press release you can find with Google. Including the one at

http://www.gatt.org/deconstructingbeck.html

This one lists the publicist at the bottom only, with a disavowal of 
connection (yeah, right), whereas the email I got listed him in a 
letterhead area at the top.

The whole thing was obviously bought and paid for by Geffen as a 
promotion. "Nobody is listening to Beck [no shit] so let's con the rubes 
into thinking they're "liberating" his work and helping to crush the 
evuuul corporations. At $5 a copy, of course. How pissed off Geffen, 
Beck, assorted lawyers are, etc."  They are a marketing firm, not 
activists. http://www.gatt.org/pressdb.html lists all the media outlets 
advertising was placed in.

It's a different world since DMCA, though. Happy Fun Oligarchy, 
blissfully, self-righeously forgetful of having started the whole damned 
thing, would no longer be amused at such dangerous and suggestive 
thoughts. Laxity, laxity, laxity! Time to cool some jets.  Would 
somebody as cheerfully amoral as rtmark perpetrate a helpful hoax to 
discredit the opposition? You tell me.

jbdigriz

ps. I think you'll find that gatt.org does not actually belong to the 
actual WTO, either. That I know of, that is.






From keyser-soze at hushmail.com  Sat Oct 13 20:55:08 2001
From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 20:55:08 -0700
Subject: House votes 339-79 to approve USA Act v2.0 "anti-terror"
Message-ID: <200110140355.f9E3t8v23994@mailserver1.hushmail.com>


At 08:30 PM 10/13/2001 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>On Saturday, October 13, 2001, at 07:37 AM, Declan McCullagh wrote:


>>http://www.wired.com/news/conflict/0,2100,47549,00.html


>>   House Endorses Snoop Bill
   By Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com)
   2:00 a.m. Oct. 13, 2001 PDT
   Democrats were the most strident critics of that decision. Barney
   Frank (D-Massachusetts) said: "What we have today is an outrageous
   procedure: A bill, drafted by a handful of people in secret, comes to
   us without a committee review and immune to amendment."


>But this is the way the best police states are established: quickly, out of the light of day, and with muted dissent.

>It's what many of my friends have been hoping for. Only a complete fascist takeover can trigger the eventual collapse.

Top Senate Republicans, ah? I'm sure some of us are selecting our match ammo at this very moment.




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Oct 13 04:24:21 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 21:24:21 +1000
Subject: evil empire meets evil disease
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011013211708.00a53c00@pop.useoz.com>


Pre emptive strike?  In the 29th sept new scientist theres a story on US 
financed(mainly)biowarfare testing
for a fungus poppy root destroyer.Ghan is practically a one crop 
country.Motive to attack the great satan,
if only to scare the shit out of the infidels.You people have to do 
something about the crimes committed
in your name or...just say so.




From reeza at hawaii.rr.com  Sun Oct 14 00:34:43 2001
From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 21:34:43 -1000
Subject: All your Olympics are belong to us!!
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011013213340.02cefd70@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com>


At 04:14 AM 10/14/01 +0000, Nob Odie wrote:
 >
 >On Tue, 9 Oct 2001 15:22:39 +0800, Xiu Yuan allegedly wrote:
 >
 >>Homepage: Http://www.Tangfeng.org
 >>
 >>Dear Sir or Madam,
 >>     Succeed!Hope!Ambition!
 >>     Everybody who wants to do business in China,please contact with
 >>us .Here has a 1,200,000,000 population,here has a wide market.With
 >>the development of economy and reformation ,there are too many
 >>opportunities in China.You know,China has succeeded in applying for
 >>holding the 2008 Olympic Game.In the coming seven years,China must
 >>be the golden point in the world.It is full of competition in the
 >>21th century.
 >>
 >[snip]
 >
 >Any one-else think that him Engrish am too 'creatively poor',for
 >someone who want to velly,much trade with America? Ahso!?!

Your Chinese.  Demonstrate.

Fucking ssz node, where you sent from.




From declan at well.com  Sat Oct 13 18:41:31 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 21:41:31 -0400
Subject: bush wheels out the nukes
In-Reply-To: <200110132213.f9DMD6v88721@mailserver1.hushmail.com>; from
  auto301094@hushmail.com on Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 03:13:06PM -0700
References: <200110132213.f9DMD6v88721@mailserver1.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: <20011013214131.A22823@cluebot.com>


On Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 03:13:06PM -0700, auto301094 at hushmail.com wrote:
> But it's not just about nukes! Here's an excerpt which outlines the bigger
> picture, from the conference report to accompany H.R. 4205:
> 
> 
> SEC. 1044. REPORT ON THE DEFEAT OF HARDENED AND DEEPLY BURIED TARGETS.

Is it just me, or does anyone else not see the word "nuclear" in
this reported conference report?

-Declan




From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org  Sat Oct 13 18:59:22 2001
From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 21:59:22 -0400
Subject: Bin Laden's Group Threatens Bush, Others Leaders; Warns Muslims in U.S., Britain to Avoid Planes
References: 
Message-ID: <3BC8F17A.3010701@dragonsweb.org>


measl at mfn.org wrote:

>>From http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/STRIKE_MAIN.html
> 
> "... Abu Ghaith singled out President Bush; his father, former President
> George H.W. Bush; former President Bill Clinton; British Prime Minister
> Tony Blair; and Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon."
> 
> 	Looks like Usama is legitimately trying to rid the world of Evil!  
> Let's wish him the best of luck!!!
> 
> 

Yeah, things must be getting desperate over in Osama-Prime. Not that 
anybody should let down their guard. As we are evidently seeing.

If there's some rational reason for further provocation, I'd like to 
know it. 5000+ dead Americans was sufficient, if you ask me.

jbdigriz




From morlockelloi at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 13 22:12:38 2001
From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 22:12:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: possession of brown sugar and envelopes illegal ?
Message-ID: <20011014051238.33388.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com>


I wonder how long will the anthrax hysteria last. Repetitive stimulation yields
diminished response over time. This is not to say that there is no danger - but
perception of danger seldom has any relation to danger itself.

The only way to protect from living organisms used as weapons (after all - life
is a weapon) in the long run is immunity. Sooner or later any small determined
group will be able to create some bug. I see no way that government can stop
this - it's like trying to stop crypto or C coding. Will not happen.

Maybe the high density living that we are so used to is incompatible with new
weapons. Maybe societal structures based on projectile-throwing weaponry are
passe. New weapons always changed rules, and it was called progress.

One obvious advance is that using and defending from bugs requires more
intelligence than pulling the trigger. This may be the main cause of Fear from
WMD.


=====
end
(of original message)

Y-a*h*o-o (yes, they scan for this) spam follows:
Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
http://personals.yahoo.com




From fearghas at mac.com  Sat Oct 13 14:25:10 2001
From: fearghas at mac.com (Fearghas McKay)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 22:25:10 +0100
Subject: WH = FBI = VP
In-Reply-To: <200110132111.RAA16116@blount.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <200110132111.RAA16116@blount.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: 


I believe that they have been Akamai'd - based on conversations in 
Praha last week with their guys.

	f

At 5:05 pm -0700 13/10/01, John Young wrote:
>VisualRoute shows that pinging whitehouse.gov produces
>exactly the same path as pinging fbi.gov, both ending in
>Los Angeles. Is that where Cheney is holed up in the Getty
>Combustible Bunker? Sniff the LA impure air, is that La
>Brea tar or Halliburton grease?
>
>Pinging the WH is will shortly be a terrorist act warns Patriot,
>so better hurry before the bush hammers john henry.
>
>Anthrac, quack, quack.




From tcmay at got.net  Sat Oct 13 22:42:11 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 22:42:11 -0700
Subject: A REALLY DIFFERENT terrorist threat view.
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3701B95E-C066-11D5-9467-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Saturday, October 13, 2001, at 08:54 PM, Gary Jeffers wrote:

> My fellow Cypherpunks,
>
>   Check out this post for a REALLY DIFFERENT view of terrorist threats.
>
> http://www.cheniere.org/correspondence/092401a.htm
>
> Yours truly,
> Gary Jeffers
>
> BEAT STATE!!!


You were a creepy nitwit back around 1994 when you first showed up with
your ill-conceived ideas, you were a creepy nitwit when you came back a
few years later, and you are a creepy nitwit this time around.

Do you even read the crap you recommend? Or is it a case of "They
laughed at Tesla! They laughed at Choate! They laughed at Jeffers!"?

Consider some of what this URL talks about, the usual mumbo jumbo about
zero point energy of the universe, folded spacetime, unlimited energy,
cold fusion, and something called "inner infolded electromagnetics."

Submittted for the amusement of Cypherpunks (though with the profusion
of Yahoo, Hotmail, Hushmail, and other throwaway-account blissninnies, I
expect most of you to just go "Like, cool!"):

--begin excerpt--
  Specifically, they have very little knowledge of the capabilities of
higher symmetry electrodynamics, since they almost ubiquitously use
standard electrical engineers and engineering for analysis.  The problem
is that this standard type of analyst -- however capable in the orthodox
sense --  is totally incapable of even recognizing the indicators
pointing to a higher symmetry EM weapon or weapon test.
..... We also missed the fact that this internal LW EM dynamics
constitutes an infolded set of spacetime curvatures and their
dynamics -- spacetime curvature engines, e.g., or "vacuum engines" in
particle physics terms, or just "engines" for short.
...
  Not a single university in the United States even teaches what
actually powers an electrical circuit, even though that has been in
physics for more than 40 years,
....You will see a total failure to attack the energy crisis right where
it begins: by what actually powers the circuit.  You will see no
acceptance of cold fusion, now demonstrated in more than 600 successful
experiments worldwide, in several nations and many laboratories, by
perhaps 200 scientists from those countries, labs, or independently. 
For the electric circuit, any dipolarity, being opposite charges, a
priori extracts EM energy from the vacuum in unusable form ( the input
must be from the time-domain; it is easily demonstrated experimentally
that no observable EM energy is input in 3-space), transduces it into
usable form, and pours it out in all directions. 

....Consequently, billions of dollars are being spent in energy research
on everything except the real problem: how to master and correctly use
the broken symmetry of the ubiquitous dipole.

..... we had to turn to a friendly foreign country, to its National
Materials Science Laboratory (which is part of its National Academy of
Sciences), to find scientists already well-versed in higher symmetry
electrodynamics and its use, willing to perform the final year of
research needed to develop the unit for the commercial market and full
production. That is now ongoing.

.....Yet astounding breakthroughs -- including for the good of all human
beings on this planet -- readily come from such work, in energy,
healing, propulsion, you name it.  The mastery of the "inner infolded
electromagnetics" inside all the normal EM potentials, fields and waves
is actually a unified field theory, but one directly engineerable on the
lab bench. 
.....to show that a small, portable higher group symmetry electrodynamic
medical treatment device can be rapidly developed in a crash program of
from $60-100 million.  The device could treat (radiate in very special
fashion) a casualty in about 2 minutes flat, and another, and another,
etc. community, not to mention the scientific community

--end excerpt--


--Tim May, Corralitos, California
Quote of the Month: "It is said that there are no atheists in foxholes;
perhaps there are no true libertarians in times of terrorist attacks."
--Cathy Young, "Reason Magazine," both enemies of liberty.




From jeffersgary at hotmail.com  Sat Oct 13 20:54:17 2001
From: jeffersgary at hotmail.com (Gary Jeffers)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 22:54:17 -0500
Subject: A REALLY DIFFERENT terrorist threat view.
Message-ID: 


My fellow Cypherpunks,

   Check out this post for a REALLY DIFFERENT view of terrorist threats.

http://www.cheniere.org/correspondence/092401a.htm

Yours truly,
Gary Jeffers

BEAT STATE!!!

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From keyser-soze at hushmail.com  Sat Oct 13 23:32:12 2001
From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 23:32:12 -0700
Subject: possession of brown sugar and envelopes illegal ?
Message-ID: <200110140632.f9E6WCZ63308@mailserver1.hushmail.com>


At 10:12 PM 10/13/2001 -0700, Morlock Elloi wrote:

>I wonder how long will the anthrax hysteria last. Repetitive stimulation yields
diminished response over time. This is not to say that there is no danger - but
perception of danger seldom has any relation to danger itself.

>The only way to protect from living organisms used as weapons (after all - life
is a weapon) in the long run is immunity. Sooner or later any small determined
group will be able to create some bug. I see no way that government can stop
this - it's like trying to stop crypto or C coding. Will not happen.

>Maybe the high density living that we are so used to is incompatible with new
weapons. Maybe societal structures based on projectile-throwing weaponry are
passe. New weapons always changed rules, and it was called progress.

Points driven well home by Davidson and Rees-Mogg, "The Sovereign Individual" and Jared Diamond, "Guns, Germs and Steel."




From fearghas at mac.com  Sat Oct 13 15:43:15 2001
From: fearghas at mac.com (Fearghas McKay)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 23:43:15 +0100
Subject: WH = FBI = VP
In-Reply-To: <200110132217.SAA18963@blount.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <200110132111.RAA16116@blount.mail.mindspring.net> 
 <200110132111.RAA16116@blount.mail.mindspring.net>
 <200110132217.SAA18963@blount.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: 


At 6:11 pm -0700 13/10/01, John Young wrote:
>That's correct, the trace legend says for both:
>
>  "It is a HTTP server (running AkamaiGHost)."
>
>But why seemingly terminate in Los Angeles? Is that a cloaking
>device? Usually when a final hop is blocked VisualRoute reports
>the block, but not in these cases. Both traces' final two hops:

more probably an Akamai thing as they guess how close you are to one of their boxes.

from my UK netblock I get

  2  YYY  YYY      0.042    212.20.242.1     212.20.242.1
  3  YYY  YYY      0.041    195.97.221.121   olivefe1-0.onyx.net
  4  YYY  YYY      0.056    195.97.199.73    willows2-1.onyx.net
  5  YYY  YYY      0.055    195.66.224.77    gigabitethernet5-0.linx1.lon1.level3.net
  6  YYY  YYY      0.058    212.113.0.114    pos8-0.core1.london1.level3.net
  7  YYY  YYY      0.052    212.187.131.39   gigabitethernet11-0.ipcolo1.london1.level3.net
  8  YYY  YYY      0.052    212.187.244.15   212.187.244.15

using IPNet Monitor

and

from my US block:

3  gige-g9-0.gsr12012.sjc.he.net (216.218.130.1)  5.887 ms  5.991 ms  11.662 ms
 4  pbnap.akamaitech.net (198.32.128.61)  7.032 ms  6.794 ms  7.090 ms
 5  208.184.83.198.akamai.com (208.184.83.198)  7.732 ms  7.263 ms  7.326 ms

using Unix tracroute

>209.244.10.42 | gigabitethernet6-0.ipcolo1.LosAngeles1.Level3.net | Los
>Angeles, CA |
>63.215.64.30 | www.whitehouse.gov | [no location shown] |
>
>209.244.10.42 | gigabitethernet6-0.ipcolo1.LosAngeles1.Level3.net | Los
>Angeles, CA |
>63.215.64.30 | www.fbi.gov | [no location shown] |
>
>The final IP address does not appear in a DNS lookup for either
>of the .gov domains. Whitehouse.gov pulls up the Executive Office
>of the President, and fbi.gov an FBI information processing
>office.

This was being discussed recently on the NANOG list, http://www.nanog.org/, North American Operators Group, not specifically in relation to whitehouse.gov but the principles will be the same.

>Is that Praha CZ, or Praha AR?

Praha CZ - the RIPE meeting was there last week, http://www.ripe.net/, equivalent to ARIN & NANOG in Europe, Middle East and N Africa.

	f

>
>Fergus McKay wrote:
> >I believe that they have been Akamai'd - based on conversations in
> >Praha last week with their guys.




From schear at lvcm.com  Sun Oct 14 00:12:22 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 00:12:22 -0700
Subject: A REALLY DIFFERENT terrorist threat view.
In-Reply-To: <3701B95E-C066-11D5-9467-0050E439C473@got.net>
References: 
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011013235509.03fc6200@pop3.lvcm.com>


At 10:42 PM 10/13/2001 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>On Saturday, October 13, 2001, at 08:54 PM, Gary Jeffers wrote:
>
> > My fellow Cypherpunks,
> >
> >   Check out this post for a REALLY DIFFERENT view of terrorist threats.
> >
> > http://www.cheniere.org/correspondence/092401a.htm
> >
> > Yours truly,
> > Gary Jeffers
> >
> > BEAT STATE!!!
>
>
>You were a creepy nitwit back around 1994 when you first showed up with
>your ill-conceived ideas, you were a creepy nitwit when you came back a
>few years later, and you are a creepy nitwit this time around.
>
>Do you even read the crap you recommend? Or is it a case of "They
>laughed at Tesla! They laughed at Choate! They laughed at Jeffers!"?
>
>Consider some of what this URL talks about, the usual mumbo jumbo about
>zero point energy of the universe, folded spacetime, unlimited energy,
>cold fusion, and something called "inner infolded electromagnetics."
>
>Submittted for the amusement of Cypherpunks (though with the profusion
>of Yahoo, Hotmail, Hushmail, and other throwaway-account blissninnies, I
>expect most of you to just go "Like, cool!"):

Quite likely hogwash, but you may admit that science can be as political as 
any profession and that some of the most important breakthroughs in science 
were scorned by the establishment of their time (e.g., plate tectonics).

I have an interesting book I've mentioned before on the list, "Causality, 
Electromagnetic Induction and Gravitation," by Oleg Jefimenko 
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0917406230/qid=1003043154/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_11_1/103-2152618-1779855 


A physicist who has spent some time in  this told field me that Jefimenko's 
book is brilliant but it has been mostly ignored by many in the scientific 
establishment.

 From the publisher info:
"This book is a strikingly new exploration of the fundamentals of Maxwell's 
electromagnetic theory and of Newton's theory of gravitation. Starting with 
an analysis of causality in the phenomenon of electromagnetic induction, 
the author discovers a series of heretofore unknown or overlooked 
electromagnetic interdependencies and equations. One of the most notable 
new results is the discovery that Maxwell's equations do not depict cause 
and effect relations between electromagnetic phenomena: causal dependencies 
in electromagnetic phenomena are found to be described by solutions of 
Maxwell's equations in the form of retarded electric and magnetic field 
integrals. A consequence of this discovery is that, contrary to the 
generally accepted view, time-variable electric and magnetic fields cannot 
cause each other and that both fields are simultaneously created by their 
true causative sources -- time-dependent electric charges and currents. 
Another similarly important discovery is that Lenz's law of electromagnetic 
induction is a manifestation of the previously ignored electric force 
produced by the time-dependent electric currents. These discoveries lead to 
important new methods of calculations of various electromagnetic effects in 
time- depended electromagnetic systems. The new methods are demonstrated by 
a variety of illustrative examples. Continuing his analysis of causal 
electromagnetic relations, the author finds that these relations are 
closely associated with the law of momentum conservation, and that with the 
help of the law of momentum conservation one can analyze causal..."

steve




From anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org  Sat Oct 13 22:36:00 2001
From: anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org (Incognito Innominatus)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 00:36:00 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Has Terrorism "Niggerized" You?
Message-ID: 


http://www.thecrimson.com/printerfriendly.aspx?ref=121582




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Sun Oct 14 02:27:23 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 02:27:23 -0700
Subject: Annual Linux Showcase Nov 8-10 Oakland Marriott
  http://www.linuxshowcase.org/
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011014022518.03568bc0@idiom.com>


Free registration until 10/15 for exhibits - the whole show is Nov 5-10,
with exhibits on Nov 8-10.  It's related to Usenix.




From proff at iq.org  Sat Oct 13 09:55:04 2001
From: proff at iq.org (Julian Assange)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 02:55:04 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Safeweb Hotmail Question
In-Reply-To: <200110131411.KAA29044@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20011013165504.EA93D25A24@suburbia.net>


> The source last wrote that "multiple" Safeweb protection
> was used to cloak the messages. Is there a way to chain
> Hotmail to Safeweb, or some other way to "multiple"
> Safeway protection as preamble to Hotmail?

This is probably referring to simply looping back through safeweb
again, feeding output to input. Provided the source is unconcerned
with the RIAA paling up with the CIA and the notoriously dollar
happy American Chinese dissident community for mutally benefitting
shenanigans this isn't a bad idea.

Julian.

--
 Julian Assange        |If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people
                       |together to collect wood or assign them tasks and
 proff at iq.org          |work, but rather teach them to long for the endless
 proff at gnu.ai.mit.edu  |immensity of the sea. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery




From noone at nuther-planet.net  Sat Oct 13 21:14:20 2001
From: noone at nuther-planet.net (Nob Odie)
Date: 14 Oct 2001 04:14:20 -0000
Subject: All your Olympics are belong to us!!
Message-ID: 


On Tue, 9 Oct 2001 15:22:39 +0800, Xiu Yuan allegedly wrote:

>Homepage: Http://www.Tangfeng.org
>
>Dear Sir or Madam,
>     Succeed!Hope!Ambition!
>     Everybody who wants to do business in China,please contact with 
>us .Here has a 1,200,000,000 population,here has a wide market.With 
>the development of economy and reformation ,there are too many 
>opportunities in China.You know,China has succeeded in applying for 
>holding the 2008 Olympic Game.In the coming seven years,China must 
>be the golden point in the world.It is full of competition in the 
>21th century.
>
[snip]

Any one-else think that him Engrish am too 'creatively poor',for 
someone who want to velly,much trade with America? Ahso!?!


I wonder how Beijing will react when hundreds of foreign citizens 
descend on Tiananmen Square during the 2008 Olympics?


[Reposted legibly, I hope]

http://www.smh.com.au/news/0107/19/world/world6.html

Gruesome (anti cult) photo display turns spotlight back on Falun Gong 
By John Schauble, Herald Correspondent in Beijing 

[..]
"We have won a great victory in struggling against Falun Gong, but 
this cult will not be reconciled to its defeat," a solemn Mr Li 
said. "We have won the right to host the 2008 Olympic Games. This 
shows that the international community has acknowledged the fact 
that China is marked by social stability and progress, its economy 
is prospering, and its people are living a peaceful and comfortable 
life."
[..]

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/010719/dcth025.html

Thursday July 19, 9:47 am Eastern Time 
Press Release
SOURCE: Family Research Council 
Stop the Killing! Human Rights Advocates Rally for an End to Chinese
Torture

'We're Appalled by Beijing's Oppression Against the Falun Gong. It's
The Same Radical Position They Hold Against Christians, Buddhists And
Hindus,' said Bob Maginnis, FRC's Vice President of Policy

WASHINGTON, July 19 /PRNewswire/ -- In the past month more than 260
men, women and children have been tortured to death in Chinese
prisons, for their religious beliefs. Tens of millions of people in
China are still at risk, in a country with an egregious human rights
record, perhaps the worst in the world. 
``Unfortunately, a government with such an appalling human rights
record has just received the crown jewel of world sporting events, the
2008 Olympics. At the same time, the U.S. Congress may soon rubber
stamp the renewal of ''permanent`` normal trade relations with China.

The Chinese communist government harasses, imprisons and tortures
people because of their faith. The communists are trying to replace
the teachings of Christ with that of Mao. 
Government run Christian seminaries replace Bible study with communist
party religious policy,'' said Maginnis. 

On Thursday, July 19, more than 3,000 people are expected to attend a
commemorative rally at the U.S. Capitol (Lower West Terrace, Noon-2
p.m.), to call for an immediate end to the abuses. Speakers include
FRC's Vice President of Policy, Bob Maginnis, several members of
Congress and leaders of various human rights organizations. 

Horrifying stories are being reported on a daily basis. Female
prisoners are stripped and beaten with bamboo sticks and their
genitals are shocked with electric batons. Many are gang raped by male
prisoners and guards. A few weeks ago, a Falun Gong practitioner was
burned alive. Last year, a mother and her 8-month son were hung upside
down by handcuffs, before their skulls were crushed to death. Others
have been tied to cars and dragged to their deaths. ``We need to
demand that Beijing stop its brutal repression of religious believers
before they are welcomed into the world of nations by countries that
respect human rights.'' 

SOURCE: Family Research Council


Attached image: A vision from Tiananmen Square 2008?
Demimed for lne users.  Check the archives if you want it.


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From nobody at dizum.com  Sat Oct 13 19:20:07 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 04:20:07 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [EMED-L] [Hazmat-WMD] Anthrax - When do we worry? (fwd)
Message-ID: <69c60dfeaefd5ccd7ef6f13930b4b874@dizum.com>


> I think it's time we started talking about how to evaluate whether or not
> this anthrax business is a big deal or not. Here are some things that would
> make me worry:
> ...
> 3. Brown powder vice white starts showing up. (Anthrax is usually brown.  You
> can find any white powder in any kitchen.)

The latest nytimes.com report describes brown powder:

: The letter postmarked from Trenton, which arrived in a white envelope with
: no return address, contained a brown granular substance, most of which
: was thrown out after it was opened in the offices of the NBC Nightly
: News program on the third floor of 30 Rockefeller Plaza, officials said.

Someone else at NBC is sick now:

: Several people handled the Trenton letter when it was first received at
: NBC, perhaps as early as Sept. 19, including Erin M. O'Connor, the aide
: to Mr. Brokaw, and another woman, who officials would not identify. That
: woman, they said, has had a fever, a rash and swollen lymph nodes,
: symptoms consistent with anthrax exposure and is being treated with
: antibiotics. Officials are awaiting results on a definitive test for
: anthrax exposure, which should be complete within the next day or two.

The unidentified second woman came into contact with the material:

: It was opened by a clerical employee, the unidentified woman who has
: since fallen ill. NBC's president, Neal Shapiro, said the woman then
: brushed the granular material that spilled from the envelope into a
: trash can near her desk.




From tcmay at got.net  Sun Oct 14 08:37:01 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 08:37:01 -0700
Subject: A REALLY DIFFERENT terrorist threat view.
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011013235509.03fc6200@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: <4F9051E6-C0B9-11D5-9467-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Sunday, October 14, 2001, at 12:12 AM, Steve Schear wrote:

> Quite likely hogwash, but you may admit that science can be as 
> political as any profession and that some of the most important 
> breakthroughs in science were scorned by the establishment of their 
> time (e.g., plate tectonics).
>


Plate tectonics is a good example of a hypothesis that was

-- seriously debated by serious geologists

-- doubted by many of the older geologists, but not "scorned" in the 
same way Bearden's "time reversal" (to reverse aging and disease) and 
"free energy" (perpetual motion) theories are

-- most importantly, plate tectonics had several testable implications, 
which were, in fact, confirmed during the decade (1960s) of ferment  (by 
contrast, the mishmash of Bearden's theories have been around for 
several decades, with no confirmation...all it takes is just _one_ of 
his Takahashi or Kawai perpetual motion machines, which he claims have 
been suppressed, or one of the French anti-aging machines, which he also 
claims are suppressed)

The major doubters of plate tectonics were convinced by the late 60s, as 
evidence from sea floor spreading came in. (One of my geology profs was 
Preston Cloud, an old-timer who did much of the work on the Cretacious 
extinction. He had a lot of insights about how plate tectonics became 
accepted...I took one of his seminars in 1973. The lessons dovetailed 
nicely with Kuhn and Popper.)

The "new physics" stuff is quite different. It is scorned in a way that 
plate tectonics was not, and for good reason. Folks should visit 
Bearden's site. http://www.cheniere.org/correspondence/index.html

Lots of hilarious stuff about underground bases, weather modification, 
perpetual motion, the downing of the "Challenger," Tesla physics, 
space-time curvature, Kawai engines, reversing aging by using phase 
conjugate optics to force time to go backwards, and the usual crap about 
suppression of new theories.

Basically, if you've seen the Mel Gibson movie "Conspiracy Theory," this 
guy Bearden is the Mel Gibson character.

> A physicist who has spent some time in  this told field me that 
> Jefimenko's book is brilliant but it has been mostly ignored by many in 
> the scientific establishment.

So?


--Tim May
"Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and
strangled with her panty hose,  is somehow morally superior to a woman 
explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound"




From tcmay at got.net  Sun Oct 14 08:50:54 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 08:50:54 -0700
Subject: possession of brown sugar and envelopes illegal ?
In-Reply-To: <20011014102812.C8394@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <3FF2159A-C0BB-11D5-9467-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Sunday, October 14, 2001, at 07:28 AM, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> On Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 10:12:38PM -0700, Morlock Elloi wrote:
>> Maybe the high density living that we are so used to is incompatible 
>> with new
>> weapons. Maybe societal structures based on projectile-throwing 
>> weaponry are
>> passe. New weapons always changed rules, and it was called progress.
>
> I think that's an interesting argument, but you'll note that the Florida
> Anthrax case targeted a firm that was hardly in a "high density living"
> situation. Apparently it was a nondescript suburb.

I drove through that area (Delray Beach. Lantana, Boca Raton) when I was 
visiting my sister in South Florida in 1994.

One continuous urban area, from Homestead to Miami to Hollywood to Fort 
Lauderdale to Delray Beach to West Palm Beach. There's a corridor on 
both sides of I-95 that is dense-packed with condos, apartments, 
tilt-ups, trailer parks,  slums, estates, and a few farms. (When I was 
there, the "new frontier" was a former farming community called 
Plantation...being replaced by new developments.)

As for Morlock's thesis, I don't know that any strong conclusions can be 
drawn about "high density living...incompatible with new weapons."

Certainly _some_ of us have decided to live in less crowded areas. Or, 
more accurately, in areas that are:

-- not Schelling points for attack (that is, not high value targets for 
terrorists or for rioters)

-- areas that are moderately defensible

(My area is not as defensible as that of some folks I know, who live in 
Idaho or northern Arizona. But, as Declan knows, it's isolated enough 
that major problems in the Bay Area would take a long time to reach me. 
Especially if I "button down.")

Some cities seem to be high value targets, something we've talked about 
for a _long_ time. (Do a search on "soft targets" in this group.) But 
I'm not persuaded that the risks are greater now than they were during, 
say, the Cuban missile crisis--I was living as a kid in the Arlington 
suburb of D.C. then and I had an inkling of what the dangers were.


--Tim May, Occupied America
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety 
deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759.




From georgemw at speakeasy.net  Sun Oct 14 08:55:07 2001
From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 08:55:07 -0700
Subject: possession of brown sugar and envelopes illegal ?
In-Reply-To: <20011014102812.C8394@cluebot.com>
References: <20011014051238.33388.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com>; from 
  morlockelloi@yahoo.com on Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 10:12:38PM -0700
Message-ID: <3BC952EC.7963.4D1C3F81@localhost>


On 14 Oct 2001, at 10:28, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> On Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 10:12:38PM -0700, Morlock Elloi wrote:
> > Maybe the high density living that we are so used to is incompatible with new
> > weapons. Maybe societal structures based on projectile-throwing weaponry are
> > passe. New weapons always changed rules, and it was called progress.
> 
> I think that's an interesting argument, but you'll note that the Florida
> Anthrax case targeted a firm that was hardly in a "high density living"
> situation. Apparently it was a nondescript suburb.
> 

Since Anthrax isn't human to human conatgious, population density
is pretty much irrelevant, at least if you're delivering it by mail.

> Throughout history people have congregated together, in family groups
> and small tribes. It strike me as hardly likely that we'll give up
> that pleasure because of some vague fear of anthrax. (Maybe huge
> island cities like NYC, however, will see a sudden erosion of
> residents.) 

If they can survive rent control, they can survive anything.

>Instead we'll take proper precautions and continue
> meeting.
> 
> This is a perfect market opportunity for a "mail opening and detoxification"
> firm that would be employed by media groups and large, hated computer
> companies as a contractor. Think food tasters, but different.
> 
> -Declan
> 
>
The kind of food irradiators used to make the milk that doesn't spoil
should be able to destroy anthrax spores, I think.  You might have
to cook it a little longer because spores are harder to
kill then wet bacteria, but if your letters are just letters you can get
away with cooking it longer, you don't care if you denature some 
proteins.    I'm guessing if all mail was sterilized at the post office
the cost could be held below 2 cents a letter.

Of course, you'd still have crop dusters to worry about.

George




From tcmay at got.net  Sun Oct 14 09:11:55 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 09:11:55 -0700
Subject: Missing details on Afghanistan: Natural Gas (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <2FBFB81C-C0BE-11D5-9467-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Sunday, October 14, 2001, at 04:12 AM, Eugene Leitl wrote:

> -- Eugen* Leitl leitl
> ______________________________________________________________
> ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204
> 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: 13 Oct 2001 14:29:45 -0400
> From: Gary Lawrence Murphy 
> To: fork 
> Subject: Missing details on Afghanistan: Natural Gas
>
>
> Something I haven't seen appear on this list before but which may
> or may not be significant:
>
> http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/afghan.html
>
>   "Afghanistan's significance from an energy standpoint stems from its
>   geographical position as a potential transit route for oil and
>   natural gas exports from Central Asia to the Arabian Sea.  This
>   potential includes the possible construction of oil and natural gas
>   export pipelines through Afghanistan, which was under serious
>   consideration in the mid-1990s.  The idea has since been undermined
>   by Afghanistan's instability.
>

The writer above may not "seen this appear," but it's a basic tenet of 
Afghan history, going back decades, centuries, and millennia. The Silk 
Route passed through Afghanistan, the British tried to gain access and 
battled the Russians in what is usually dubbed "The Great Game." The 
Russians wanted a warm water port.

Daniel Yergin's book on the oil business some years back explained in 
great detail how the discovery of huge oil and gas fields in Central 
Asia early in the 20th century highlighted the issue of where to put a 
pipeline to a seaport. South through Uzbekistan and over the Khyber Pass 
into Pakistan and then down through the desert to the Arabian Sea was 
one conceived route. Another was west across Turkmenistan to Turkey to 
the Med was another.

(For those who get their history from James Bond movies, this was 
covered in the last Bond movie, where the French uberbabe Sophie Marceau 
played a Central Asian oil magnate. Scenes were shot in Tashkent.)

So, this is well-trod ground.

--Tim May




From declan at well.com  Sun Oct 14 07:23:05 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 10:23:05 -0400
Subject: Safeweb Hotmail Question
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011013145602.00a3b940@pop.gmx.net>; from
  saeq@gmx.net on Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 03:32:00PM -0700
References: <200110131411.KAA29044@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
  <3BC86716.5040108@dragonsweb.org>
  <5.1.0.14.2.20011013145602.00a3b940@pop.gmx.net>
Message-ID: <20011014102305.B8394@cluebot.com>


On Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 03:32:00PM -0700, Luthor Blisset wrote:
>          Last time I checked, rtmark made some of the most clever 
> anti-corporate propaganda I've ever seen. I'm extremely skeptical of any 
> claims that they are part of what they seem to so diligently oppose.

This jibes with what I know (I've written about and spoken with
these blokes a few times, FWIW).

-Declan




From declan at well.com  Sun Oct 14 07:28:12 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 10:28:12 -0400
Subject: possession of brown sugar and envelopes illegal ?
In-Reply-To: <20011014051238.33388.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com>; from
  morlockelloi@yahoo.com on Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 10:12:38PM -0700
References: <20011014051238.33388.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20011014102812.C8394@cluebot.com>


On Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 10:12:38PM -0700, Morlock Elloi wrote:
> Maybe the high density living that we are so used to is incompatible with new
> weapons. Maybe societal structures based on projectile-throwing weaponry are
> passe. New weapons always changed rules, and it was called progress.

I think that's an interesting argument, but you'll note that the Florida
Anthrax case targeted a firm that was hardly in a "high density living"
situation. Apparently it was a nondescript suburb.

Throughout history people have congregated together, in family groups
and small tribes. It strike me as hardly likely that we'll give up
that pleasure because of some vague fear of anthrax. (Maybe huge
island cities like NYC, however, will see a sudden erosion of
residents.) Instead we'll take proper precautions and continue
meeting.

This is a perfect market opportunity for a "mail opening and detoxification"
firm that would be employed by media groups and large, hated computer
companies as a contractor. Think food tasters, but different.

-Declan




From tcmay at got.net  Sun Oct 14 10:40:40 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 10:40:40 -0700
Subject: More on "new physics"
In-Reply-To: <3BC9B9ED.1040802@dragonsweb.org>
Message-ID: <95F357A4-C0CA-11D5-9467-0050E439C473@got.net>


Someone sent me a private note. I have deleted his name for this public 
reply.

> Tim May wrote:
>
>
>> The "new physics" stuff is quite different. It is scorned in a way 
>> that plate tectonics was not, and for good reason. Folks should visit 
>> Bearden's site. http://www.cheniere.org/correspondence/index.html
>
> I did. Oh, dear.
>
> Not sure what is supposed to be denoted by "Tesla physics", but Tesla's 
> work with power transmission via HF is fascinating, even if there was 
> apparently no practical or safe use for it.


No one disputes the outstanding work Tesla did on a.c. transmission. And 
anyone who has seen or used a Tesla coil knows how real it is.

"Tesla physics" is all the cruft that has developed around some of his 
more obscure (and late) writings, usually mixed together with stuff 
Tesla could not have known about at the time of his death. To wit, the 
stuff about zero point energy and perpetual motion machines. And, 
sometimes, mixed together with the usual nutcase stuff about the Hollow 
Earth theory (zeta reticulans colonizing the hollow earth, Greys, 
underground UFO bases, secret Nazi weapons, etc.).

Tesla is a hero to these "new physics" nuts, even though nothing Tesla 
ever worked on or built contradicts in the slightest way the predictions 
of Maxwell's theories. They take Tesla's very real contributions and 
some of his weirder theories (though none of them so weird as the Hollow 
Earth/antigravity/time reversal theories of modern nutters) and say that 
this means "They laughed at Tesla, they laugh at me!"

BTW, I was/am an early ("angel") investor in a company doing work on 
ultrawideband transmissions. Some of the works Bearden cites, like those 
of Barrett, are familiar to me and others with this company. Saying that 
there is a role for ultrawideband pulse technology, a la spread spectrum 
and beyond SS, is NOT the same as saying there are confirmed "problems" 
with electromagnetic theory. There may be, and there are a handful of 
folks doing "foundational" work in E&M, but, so far, there are no 
indications that their foundational work is changing any engineering 
calculations. Quite the contrary, in my view. Electromagnetic theory 
basically "works"--to many decimal places of accuracy. Circuits work as 
expected, antennas work as expected, and there are no "unexplained 
observations" (as usually exist before a new theory arrives). There may 
be some _semantic_ issues, e.g., does a square wave or impulse "really" 
have components that were sent out _before_ the square wave or impulse? 
(A Fourier decomposition of a square wave starting at time t = 0 has 
"sine wave components" spread out over time and adding up in such a way 
as to give the square wave, or the impulse, or any other signal. Some 
think this means deep and mysterious things are happening, something 
having to do with time travel and reversing the aging process, blah blah 
blah.

Henning Harmuth may write fairly eloquently about the "dogma of the 
circle" and how  the Fourier decomposition of a signal into (allegedly) 
a near-infinite series of sine waves is "not real," but for all intents 
and purposes it all works. And the "new physics" people like Bearden go 
way beyond what Harmuth and Barrett are talking about: they bring in 
"curved space-time" and gravitation and antigravity and the ultra-weird 
notion that aging can be reversed by "pumping the conjugate time-axis of 
the Minkowski manifold" (OK, I made this up...don't have time to lift 
one of Bearden's direct quotes...and this will help train me in the 
jargon if I ever become a "new physicist.").

Nut cases like Bearden have the patter of physics down. Very few actual 
physicists waste their time dissecting and refuting Bearden for obvious 
reasons.

I urge readers of this list not to waste time on this stuff.


--Tim May, Citizen-unit of of the once free United States
" The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood 
of patriots & tyrants. "--Thomas Jefferson, 1787




From inc at fastmedia.net  Sun Oct 14 14:06:43 2001
From: inc at fastmedia.net (cpaul)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 11:06:43 -1000
Subject: son of laden
Message-ID: <20011014110643.69037b9b.inc@fastmedia.net>




http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/STRIKE_MAIN.html


Britain's Sunday Mirror newspaper quoted the 18-year old son of Osama bin
Laden as saying his father was hiding in a cave in the Afghan mountains
with 300 commandos and would never be caught. The Mirror quoted bin
Laden's son Abdullah, one of his 42 children, as saying his father had
disappeared with 60 trucks filled with satellite equipment on Sept. 11,
the day of the suicide hijack attacks on New York and Washington "America
and Britain will never track down my father," the son said in the
interview. "He has vanished into the landscape, he is invisible.

.
.

The Pakistani newspaper Ausaf  reported today al Qaeda announced a $50,000
reward for any Afghan capturing an American soldier, $3,000 for the
uniform of a U.S. soldier, and $1,500 for the gun of a U.S. soldier. The
announcement was made through a bin Laden spokesman, the paper reported.




From oa at acm.org  Sun Oct 14 11:15:11 2001
From: oa at acm.org (Optimizzin Al-gorithm)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 11:15:11 -0700
Subject: sinister beards
Message-ID: <3BC9D62F.90CA3B57@acm.org>


At 03:45 AM 10/13/01 -0000, Dr. Evil wrote:
>obvious question: if you're firing an AK left-handed, how do you avoid
>getting brass stuck in your beard?
>

Hmm.  Gas masks don't fit over beards too well.




From 90242788 at 13926.com  Sun Oct 14 09:19:59 2001
From: 90242788 at 13926.com (90242788 at 13926.com)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 01 11:19:59 EST
Subject: AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV: This is the media report
Message-ID: <21567896297236487@cscom>

AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV: This is the media report.

PARENTS OF 15 - YEAR OLD - FIND $71,000 CASH HIDDEN IN HIS CLOSET!

Does this headline look familiar? Of course it does. You most likely have
just seen this story recently featured on a major nightly news program
(USA). And reported elsewhere in the world (including my neck of the
woods - New Zealand). His mother was cleaning and putting laundry away when
she came across a large brown paper bag that was suspiciously buried beneath
some clothes and a skateboard in the back of her 15-year-old sons closet.
Nothing could have prepared her for the shock she got when she opened the
bag and found it was full of cash. Five-dollar bills, twenties, fifties and
hundreds - all neatly rubber-banded in labelled piles.


"My first thought was that he had robbed a bank", says the 41-year-old
woman, "There was over $71,000 dollars in that bag -- that's more than my
husband earns in a year".

The woman immediately called her husband at the car-dealership where he
worked to tell him what she had discovered.He came home right away and they
drove together to the boys school and picked him up. Little did they suspect
that where the money came from was more shocking than actually finding it in
the closet.

As it turns out, the boy had been sending out, via E-mail, a type of
"Report" to E-mail addresses that he obtained off the Internet. Everyday
after school for the past 2 months, he had been doing this right on his
computer in his bedroom.

"I just got the E-mail one day and I figured what the heck, I put my name on
it like the instructions said and I started sending it out", says the clever
15-year-old.

The E-mail letter listed 5 addresses and contained instructions to send one
$5 dollar bill to each person on the list, then delete the address at the
top and move the others addresses Down , and finally to add your name to the
top of the list.

The letter goes on to state that you would receive several thousand dollars
in five-dollar bills within 2 weeks if you sent out the letter with your
name at the top of the 5-address list. "I get junk E-mail all the time, and
really did not think it was going to work", the boy continues.

Within the first few days of sending out the E-mail, the Post Office Box
that his parents had gotten him for his video-game magazine subscriptions
began to fill up with not magazines, but envelopes containing $5 bills.

"About a week later I rode [my bike] down to the post office and my box had
1 magazine and about 300 envelops stuffed in it. There was also a yellow
slip that said I had to go up to the [post office] counter.

I thought I was in trouble or something (laughs)". He goes on, "I went up to
the counter and they had a whole box of more mail for me. I had to ride back
home and empty out my backpack because I could not carry it all".

Over the next few weeks, the boy continued sending out the E-mail."The money
just kept coming in and I just kept sorting it and stashing it in the
closet, barely had time for my homework".He had also been riding his bike to
several of the banks in his area and exchanging the $5 bills for twenties,
fifties and hundreds.

"I didn't want the banks to get suspicious so I kept riding to different
banks with like five thousand at a time in my backpack. I would usually tell
the lady at the bank counter that my dad had sent me in to exchange the
money] and he was outside waiting for me.One time the lady gave me a really
strange look and told me that she would not be able to do it for me and my
dad would have to come in and do it, but I just rode to the next bank down
the street (laughs)."

Surprisingly, the boy did not have any reason to be afraid.The reporting
news team examined and
investigated the so-called "chain-letter" the boy was sending out and found
that it was not a chain-letter at all.In fact, it was completely legal
according to US Postal and Lottery Laws, Title 18, Section 1302 and 1341, or
Title 18, Section 3005 in the US code, also in the code of federal
regulations, Volume 16, Sections 255 and 436, which state a product or
service must be exchanged for money received.

Every five-dollar bill that he received contained a little note that read,
"Please send me report number XYX".This simple note made the letter legal
because he was exchanging a service (A Report on how-to) for a five-dollar
fee.

[This is the end of the media release. If you would like to understand how
the system works and get your $71,000 - please continue reading. What
appears below is what the 15 year old was sending out on the net - YOU CAN
USE IT TOO - just follow the simple instructions].

------------------------------------------------------------------------


AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV: 
'BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR' 
THANK'S TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET!
 

Dear Friends & Future Millionaire: 


'People Are Making Over Half Million Dollars Every 4 to 5 Months 
>From Your Home For An Investment Of Only $25 U.S. Dollars 
Expense One Time'





Before you say ''''Bull'''', please read the following. This is the letter you have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the Internet, a national weekly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of this program described below, to see if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. 

Their findings proved once and for all that there are ''absolutely NO Laws prohibiting the participation in the program and if people can follow the simple instructions, they are bound to make some mega bucks with only $25 out of pocket cost''. DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER. 

This is what one had to say: "Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I was approached many times before but each time I passed on it. I am so glad I finally joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received total $ 610,470.00 in 21 weeks, with money still coming in''. Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New 
Jersey. 

=====================================================================

Here is another testimonial: ''This program has been around for a long time but I never believed in it. But one day when I received this again in the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the simple instructions and well ..... 3 weeks later the money started to come in. First month I only made $240.00 but the next 2 months after that I made a total of $290,000.00. So far, in the past 8 months by re-entering the program, I have made over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again. The key to success in this program is to follow the simple steps and NOT change anything.'' More testimonials later but first, 

================ PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE ========== 

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ 
If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months easily and 
comfortably, please read the following...THEN READ IT AGAIN and AGAIN !!! 
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$










FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTIONS BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS: 

================== Order all 5 reports shown on the list below=================

For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems. 

When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 reports. You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5=$25.00. 

Within a few days you will receive, vie e-mail, each of the 5 reports from these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it on your desk in case something happens to your computer. 

IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than what is instructed below in step '' 1 through 6 '' or you will lose out on majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you will also see how it does not work if you change it. Remember, this method has beentested, and if you alter, it will NOT work!!! People have tried to put their friends/relatives names on all five thinking they could get all the money. But it does not work this way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and then nothing happened. So Do Not try to change anything other than what is instructed. Because if you do, it will not work for you. Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 

1.... After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT #5. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune. 

2.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5. 

3.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4. 

4.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3. 

5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2 

6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. 



PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! 
=====================================================================

Now, take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it on your computer. 

DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. 

Save this on a disk as well just in case if you lose any data. To assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing information which includes how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much more. There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going: 




METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY 
============================================ 
Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we 
will assume You and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let's 
also assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% response (the response 
could be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2%. Also many people 
will send out hundreds of thousands of e-mails instead of only 5,000 each). 
Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. 

With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for report # 1. Those 10 people 
responded by sending out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000. Out of 
those 50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders. That's=100 people 
responded and ordered Report # 2. 

Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e-mails. 
The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report # 3. 

Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million 
e-mails sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for Report # 4. 

Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000,000 
(50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for 
Report # 5 THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH=$500,000.00 (half million). 

Your total income in this example is: 1..... $50 + 2..... $500 + 3..... 
$5,000 + 4..... $50,000 + 5..... $500,000 ........ Grand Total=$555,550.00 



NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE OUT 
THE WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE 
IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY ! 

============================================================

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO. Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone or half or even one 4th of those people mailed 100,000 e-mails each or more? There are over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide and counting. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! 

METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET 
================================================= 
Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there are hundreds of 
FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the Internet will 
easily get a larger response. We strongly suggest you start with Method # 1 
and add METHOD # 2 as you go along. For every $5 you receive, all you must 
do is e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it. Always provide same 
day service on all orders. 

This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and 
address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they 
receive the report. 




====================== AVAILABLE REPORTS====================


ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper. On one of those 
sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are ordering, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address. 

PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW : 
===================================================================== 
REPORT # 1 : ''The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Net'' 
Order Report #1 from: 

Wendy Dietenbeck

4965 Franklin Rd SE

Deming, NM 88030


USA
_________________________________________________________________ 
REPORT # 2 : ''The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the Net'' 
Order Report # 2 from: 

James Karhu

25619 210 Ave SE

Maple Valley, WA 98038


USA
_________________________________________________________________ 
REPORT # 3 : ''The Secret to Multilevel marketing on the net'' 
Order Report #3 from:

J.K.

26828 Maple Valley Hwy, #120

Maple Valley, WA. 98038-8379

USA
________________________________________________________________ 
REPORT # 4: ''How to become a millionaire utilizing MLM & the Net'' 
Order Report # 4 from: 

Travis Thomas

38933 234th Ave SE

Black Diamond, WA 98010

USA
________________________________________________________________ 
REPORT # 5: ''HOW TO SEND 1 MILLION E-MAILS FOR FREE'' 
Order Report # 5 from: 

Chris Barnes

4820 Brandywine St. NW

Washington DC, 20016

USA
______________________________________________________________ 
$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$ 

Follow these guidelines to Guarantee Your Success: 

* If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2 weeks, 
continue sending e-mails until you do. 

* After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you should 
receive 100 orders or more for REPORT # 2. If you did not, continue 
advertising or sending e-mails until you do. 

* Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU CAN RELAX, 
because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to 
roll in! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down 
on the list, you are placed in front of a different report. 




You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate from this business!!!




THE FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: 

You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for 
the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can 
make more money in the next few weeks and months than you have ever 
imagined. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any 
way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of 
this exciting report after you have put your name and address in Report #1 
and moved others to #2 ...........# 5 as instructed above. One of the people 
you send this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be 
on every one of them. Remember though, the more you send out the more 
potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the 
ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially 
independent. 

IT IS UP TO YOU NOW! 

==================== MORE TESTIMONIALS====================== 

'' My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an 
accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When 
I received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving ''junk mail''. I 
made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and 
percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn''t work. Jody totally ignored my 
supposed intelligence and a few days later she jumped in with both feet. I 
made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old ''I told you so'' on 
her when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks 
she had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received 
total $ 147,200.00 ........... all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jody 
in her ''hobby''. 
Mitchell Wolf M.D., Chicago, Illinois 
===================================================================== 
''Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind 
to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the 
initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't 
get enough orders to at least get my money back''. '' I was surprised when I 
found my medium size post office box crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00 
in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that it does not 
matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a 
faster return and so big''. 
Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada 
===================================================================== 
''I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if 
I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get 
another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone 
else.........11 months passed then it luckily came again...... I did not 
delete this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the money 
came within 22 weeks''. 
Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y. 
===================================================================== 
''It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with 
little cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully and within 
10 days the money started to come in. My first month I made $ 20,560.00 and 
by the end of third month my total cash count was $ 362,840.00. Life is 
beautiful, Thanx to internet''. 
Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand 

===================================================================== 
If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the 
Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade 
Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C. 
=====================================================================

 No need to Remove, a one time mailing.




From 90242788 at 13926.com  Sun Oct 14 09:19:59 2001
From: 90242788 at 13926.com (90242788 at 13926.com)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 01 11:19:59 EST
Subject: AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV: This is the media report
Message-ID: <21567896297236487@cscom>

AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV: This is the media report.

PARENTS OF 15 - YEAR OLD - FIND $71,000 CASH HIDDEN IN HIS CLOSET!

Does this headline look familiar? Of course it does. You most likely have
just seen this story recently featured on a major nightly news program
(USA). And reported elsewhere in the world (including my neck of the
woods - New Zealand). His mother was cleaning and putting laundry away when
she came across a large brown paper bag that was suspiciously buried beneath
some clothes and a skateboard in the back of her 15-year-old sons closet.
Nothing could have prepared her for the shock she got when she opened the
bag and found it was full of cash. Five-dollar bills, twenties, fifties and
hundreds - all neatly rubber-banded in labelled piles.


"My first thought was that he had robbed a bank", says the 41-year-old
woman, "There was over $71,000 dollars in that bag -- that's more than my
husband earns in a year".

The woman immediately called her husband at the car-dealership where he
worked to tell him what she had discovered.He came home right away and they
drove together to the boys school and picked him up. Little did they suspect
that where the money came from was more shocking than actually finding it in
the closet.

As it turns out, the boy had been sending out, via E-mail, a type of
"Report" to E-mail addresses that he obtained off the Internet. Everyday
after school for the past 2 months, he had been doing this right on his
computer in his bedroom.

"I just got the E-mail one day and I figured what the heck, I put my name on
it like the instructions said and I started sending it out", says the clever
15-year-old.

The E-mail letter listed 5 addresses and contained instructions to send one
$5 dollar bill to each person on the list, then delete the address at the
top and move the others addresses Down , and finally to add your name to the
top of the list.

The letter goes on to state that you would receive several thousand dollars
in five-dollar bills within 2 weeks if you sent out the letter with your
name at the top of the 5-address list. "I get junk E-mail all the time, and
really did not think it was going to work", the boy continues.

Within the first few days of sending out the E-mail, the Post Office Box
that his parents had gotten him for his video-game magazine subscriptions
began to fill up with not magazines, but envelopes containing $5 bills.

"About a week later I rode [my bike] down to the post office and my box had
1 magazine and about 300 envelops stuffed in it. There was also a yellow
slip that said I had to go up to the [post office] counter.

I thought I was in trouble or something (laughs)". He goes on, "I went up to
the counter and they had a whole box of more mail for me. I had to ride back
home and empty out my backpack because I could not carry it all".

Over the next few weeks, the boy continued sending out the E-mail."The money
just kept coming in and I just kept sorting it and stashing it in the
closet, barely had time for my homework".He had also been riding his bike to
several of the banks in his area and exchanging the $5 bills for twenties,
fifties and hundreds.

"I didn't want the banks to get suspicious so I kept riding to different
banks with like five thousand at a time in my backpack. I would usually tell
the lady at the bank counter that my dad had sent me in to exchange the
money] and he was outside waiting for me.One time the lady gave me a really
strange look and told me that she would not be able to do it for me and my
dad would have to come in and do it, but I just rode to the next bank down
the street (laughs)."

Surprisingly, the boy did not have any reason to be afraid.The reporting
news team examined and
investigated the so-called "chain-letter" the boy was sending out and found
that it was not a chain-letter at all.In fact, it was completely legal
according to US Postal and Lottery Laws, Title 18, Section 1302 and 1341, or
Title 18, Section 3005 in the US code, also in the code of federal
regulations, Volume 16, Sections 255 and 436, which state a product or
service must be exchanged for money received.

Every five-dollar bill that he received contained a little note that read,
"Please send me report number XYX".This simple note made the letter legal
because he was exchanging a service (A Report on how-to) for a five-dollar
fee.

[This is the end of the media release. If you would like to understand how
the system works and get your $71,000 - please continue reading. What
appears below is what the 15 year old was sending out on the net - YOU CAN
USE IT TOO - just follow the simple instructions].

------------------------------------------------------------------------


AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV: 
'BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR' 
THANK'S TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET!
 

Dear Friends & Future Millionaire: 


'People Are Making Over Half Million Dollars Every 4 to 5 Months 
>From Your Home For An Investment Of Only $25 U.S. Dollars 
Expense One Time'





Before you say ''''Bull'''', please read the following. This is the letter you have been hearing about on the news 
lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the Internet, a national weekly news program recently devoted an 
entire show to the investigation of this program described below, to see if it really can make people money. The 
show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. 

Their findings proved once and for all that there are ''absolutely NO Laws prohibiting the participation in the 
program and if people can follow the simple instructions, they are bound to make some mega bucks with only 
$25 out of pocket cost''. DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS PROGRAM 
HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER. 

This is what one had to say: "Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I was approached many times before but 
each time I passed on it. I am so glad I finally joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal 
effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received total $ 610,470.00 in 21 weeks, with money still 
coming in''. Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New 
Jersey. 

=====================================================================

Here is another testimonial: ''This program has been around for a long time but I never believed in it. But one day 
when I received this again in the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the simple instructions and well 
..... 3 weeks later the money started to come in. First month I only made $240.00 but the next 2 months after that 
I made a total of $290,000.00. So far, in the past 8 months by re-entering the program, I have made over 
$710,000.00 and I am playing it again. The key to success in this program is to follow the simple steps and NOT 
change anything.'' More testimonials later but first, 

================ PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE ========== 

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ 
If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months easily and 
comfortably, please read the following...THEN READ IT AGAIN and AGAIN !!! 
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$










FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTIONS BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, 
GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS: 

================== Order all 5 reports shown on the list below=================

For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING and YOUR 
E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR 
RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems. 

When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 reports. You will need all 5 reports so that you 
can save them on your computer and resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5=$25.00. 

Within a few days you will receive, vie e-mail, each of the 5 reports from these 5 different individuals. Save them 
on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. 
Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it on your desk in case something happens to your computer. 

IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their sequence on 
the list, in any way other than what is instructed below in step '' 1 through 6 '' or you will lose out on majority of 
your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you will also see how it does not work if you change it. 
Remember, this method has beentested, and if you alter, it will NOT work!!! People have tried to put their 
friends/relatives names on all five thinking they could get all the money. But it does not work this way. Believe 
us, we all have tried to be greedy and then nothing happened. So Do Not try to change anything other than 
what is instructed. Because if you do, it will not work for you. Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 

1.... After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and REMOVE the name & address of the 
person in REPORT #5. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune. 

2.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5. 

3.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4. 

4.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3. 

5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2 

6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. 



PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! 
=====================================================================

Now, take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it on your computer. 

DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. 

Save this on a disk as well just in case if you lose any data. To assist you with marketing your business on the 
internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing information which includes how to 
send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much more. There are 2 Primary 
methods to get this venture going: 




METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY 
============================================ 
Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we 
will assume You and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let's 
also assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% response (the response 
could be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2%. Also many people 
will send out hundreds of thousands of e-mails instead of only 5,000 each). 
Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. 

With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for report # 1. Those 10 people 
responded by sending out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000. Out of 
those 50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders. That's=100 people 
responded and ordered Report # 2. 

Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e-mails. 
The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report # 3. 

Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million 
e-mails sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for Report # 4. 

Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000,000 
(50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for 
Report # 5 THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH=$500,000.00 (half million). 

Your total income in this example is: 1..... $50 + 2..... $500 + 3..... 
$5,000 + 4..... $50,000 + 5..... $500,000 ........ Grand Total=$555,550.00 



NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE OUT 
THE WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE 
IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY ! 

============================================================

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO. 
Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone or half or even one 4th of those people mailed 
100,000 e-mails each or more? There are over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide and counting. 
Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! 

METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET 
================================================= 
Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there are hundreds of 
FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the Internet will 
easily get a larger response. We strongly suggest you start with Method # 1 
and add METHOD # 2 as you go along. For every $5 you receive, all you must 
do is e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it. Always provide same 
day service on all orders. 

This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and 
address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they 
receive the report. 




====================== AVAILABLE REPORTS====================


ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for 
each Report. Checks NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of 
paper. On one of those 
sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are ordering, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and 
your name and postal address. 

PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW : 
===================================================================== 
REPORT # 1 : ''The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Net'' 
Order Report #1 from: 

Wendy Dietenbeck

4965 Franklin Rd SE

Deming, NM 88030


USA
_________________________________________________________________ 
REPORT # 2 : ''The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the Net'' 
Order Report # 2 from: 

James Karhu

25619 210 Ave SE

Maple Valley, WA 98038


USA
_________________________________________________________________ 
REPORT # 3 : ''The Secret to Multilevel marketing on the net'' 
Order Report #3 from:

J.K.

26828 Maple Valley Hwy, #120

Maple Valley, WA. 98038-8379

USA
________________________________________________________________ 
REPORT # 4: ''How to become a millionaire utilizing MLM & the Net'' 
Order Report # 4 from: 

Travis Thomas

38933 234th Ave SE

Black Diamond, WA 98010

USA
________________________________________________________________ 
REPORT # 5: ''HOW TO SEND 1 MILLION E-MAILS FOR FREE'' 
Order Report # 5 from: 

Chris Barnes

4820 Brandywine St. NW

Washington DC, 20016

USA
______________________________________________________________ 
$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$ 

Follow these guidelines to Guarantee Your Success: 

* If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2 weeks, 
continue sending e-mails until you do. 

* After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you should 
receive 100 orders or more for REPORT # 2. If you did not, continue 
advertising or sending e-mails until you do. 

* Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU CAN RELAX, 
because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to 
roll in! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down 
on the list, you are placed in front of a different report. 




You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. IF YOU 
WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE 
PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate from this business!!!




THE FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: 

You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for 
the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can 
make more money in the next few weeks and months than you have ever 
imagined. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any 
way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of 
this exciting report after you have put your name and address in Report #1 
and moved others to #2 ...........# 5 as instructed above. One of the people 
you send this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be 
on every one of them. Remember though, the more you send out the more 
potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the 
ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially 
independent. 

IT IS UP TO YOU NOW! 

==================== MORE TESTIMONIALS====================== 

'' My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an 
accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When 
I received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving ''junk mail''. I 
made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and 
percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn''t work. Jody totally ignored my 
supposed intelligence and a few days later she jumped in with both feet. I 
made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old ''I told you so'' on 
her when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks 
she had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received 
total $ 147,200.00 ........... all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jody 
in her ''hobby''. 
Mitchell Wolf M.D., Chicago, Illinois 
===================================================================== 
''Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind 
to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the 
initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't 
get enough orders to at least get my money back''. '' I was surprised when I 
found my medium size post office box crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00 
in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that it does not 
matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a 
faster return and so big''. 
Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada 
===================================================================== 
''I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if 
I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get 
another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone 
else.........11 months passed then it luckily came again...... I did not 
delete this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the money 
came within 22 weeks''. 
Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y. 
===================================================================== 
''It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with 
little cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully and within 
10 days the money started to come in. My first month I made $ 20,560.00 and 
by the end of third month my total cash count was $ 362,840.00. Life is 
beautiful, Thanx to internet''. 
Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand 

===================================================================== 
If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the 
Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade 
Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C. 
=====================================================================

 No need to Remove, a one time mailing.
 




From oa at acm.org  Sun Oct 14 11:22:44 2001
From: oa at acm.org (Optimizzin Al-gorithm)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 11:22:44 -0700
Subject: geopoker
Message-ID: <3BC9D7F3.DF21CBE6@acm.org>


>"The GBU-28 is a 5,000-pound laser-guided conventional munition..."

I see your gps-bbuster and raise you a railcar of phosgene upwind of a
city.

Or the first domestic FAM using unodorized gas in a metro area.

Etc.

What part of "asymmetric warfare" don't you understand?




From jya at pipeline.com  Sun Oct 14 11:25:01 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 11:25:01 -0700
Subject: Safeweb Hotmail Question
In-Reply-To: <3BC86716.5040108@dragonsweb.org>
References: <200110131411.KAA29044@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <200110141531.LAA04188@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>


Thanks for much help in tracing the Safeweb/Hotmail thing.

With some covert tools provided by people who I never want
to cross online, we're proceeding in a special ops mode, 
deploying dirty trick tracking devices to find, corner and 
cut off the head of our source, or if source is proven a noble
leaker to hide identity as an unannounced success.

Not sure how I got sucked into this ignoble pursuit, but I 
blame Declan bin Cullagh and the Bush coupers for 
demanding handover of heros or pay the ultimate price
of dying alive in DC.




From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org  Sun Oct 14 08:30:56 2001
From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 11:30:56 -0400
Subject: Safeweb Hotmail Question
References: <200110131411.KAA29044@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>  <3BC86716.5040108@dragonsweb.org>  <5.1.0.14.2.20011013145602.00a3b940@pop.gmx.net> <20011014102305.B8394@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <3BC9AFB0.8020205@dragonsweb.org>


Declan McCullagh wrote:

> On Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 03:32:00PM -0700, Luthor Blisset wrote:
> 
>>         Last time I checked, rtmark made some of the most clever 
>>anti-corporate propaganda I've ever seen. I'm extremely skeptical of any 
>>claims that they are part of what they seem to so diligently oppose.
>>
> 
> This jibes with what I know (I've written about and spoken with
> these blokes a few times, FWIW).
> 
> -Declan
> 
> 
> 

And I think you've been hornswoggled. I'm gonna just leave it at that 
and disagree with you.

jbdigriz




From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org  Sun Oct 14 08:44:12 2001
From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 11:44:12 -0400
Subject: Brown sugar and envelopes considered inflammatory 
References: <20011014051238.33388.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3BC9B2CC.4090806@dragonsweb.org>


Morlock Elloi wrote:

> I wonder how long will the anthrax hysteria last. Repetitive stimulation yields
> diminished response over time. This is not to say that there is no danger - but
> perception of danger seldom has any relation to danger itself.
> 


Ask the Afghans how long bomb hysteria lasts. They been dealing with 
them for a few decades now.

> The only way to protect from living organisms used as weapons (after all - life
> is a weapon) in the long run is immunity. Sooner or later any small determined
> group will be able to create some bug. I see no way that government can stop
> this - it's like trying to stop crypto or C coding. Will not happen.


That or genetic engineering, biotechnology, other advances in medicine 
and other fields. Brought about in no small measure to crypto and C 
coding, if only indirectly.

> 
> Maybe the high density living that we are so used to is incompatible with new
> weapons. Maybe societal structures based on projectile-throwing weaponry are
> passe. New weapons always changed rules, and it was called progress.
> 


Give me enough room for projectiles any day.


> One obvious advance is that using and defending from bugs requires more
> intelligence than pulling the trigger. This may be the main cause of Fear from
> WMD.
> 


Putting whole societies in the line of fire of microbes is intelligent?


Like I've been saying, folks, get a fucking grip.


jbdigriz

 






From oa at acm.org  Sun Oct 14 11:59:09 2001
From: oa at acm.org (Optimizzin Al-gorithm)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 11:59:09 -0700
Subject: Got Beef?  Re: evil empire meets evil disease
Message-ID: <3BC9E07D.4EA2CC6F@acm.org>


At 09:24 PM 10/13/01 +1000, mattd wrote:
>Pre emptive strike?  In the 29th sept new scientist theres a story on
US
>financed(mainly)biowarfare testing
>for a fungus poppy root destroyer.

Old news.  UK does this research too; not just poppies, but cannabis,
coca, etc.  Its current
research.

Of course, the US is *currently* engaged in biowar in Columbia, spraying
glyphosphate,
(which you can buy at home depot, and kills everything it touches, the
locals' food too).
But the folks with the Soviet Sub Surplus connections haven't taken it
personally yet.

The *real* fun would be the introduction of hoof and mouth disease into
the livestock regions of the country.  Auction sites would be
good as lots of flux, like sneezing variola in an airport.

What was that Terry Gilliam movie, 12 monkeys?




From FrostyBabs18569 at waa.com  Sun Oct 14 11:42:49 2001
From: FrostyBabs18569 at waa.com (FrostyBabs18569 at waa.com)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 12:42:49 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: yoh81645
Message-ID: <200110141842.f9EIgns11370@intco.icom.com>


Below is the result of your feedback form.  It was submitted by
 (FrostyBabs18569 at waa.com) on Sunday, October 14, 2001 at 12:42:49
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

message: &
hey, wanna see pictures of me and my sexy friends?  then check out < a href=" aol://1223:26260/http://laser.to/amysexypics/">my site.  i also have a *LIVE* webcam posted.    

1

794w794w
&


f5o9e

---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From morlockelloi at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 14 12:45:39 2001
From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 12:45:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: possession of brown sugar and envelopes illegal ?
In-Reply-To: <3BC9CD62.80001@dragonsweb.org>
Message-ID: <20011014194539.8323.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com>


Targeted bioweapons will offer, for the first time, opportunity to get rid of
"others". The more "others" present a monoculture group (genetically, eating
habbits, behavioural patterns) the easier it will be to target them. In this
regard bioweapons work directly against what was driving force in history so
far - grandfalooning around concepts, feeling safe among the same.

[Think microsoft & windoze - I notice that those using them spend more and more
time fighting plagues than doing some useful work, if they ever did. When was
the last time you saw a macintosh or lynx virus ?]

Some alternate lifestyles will (statistically, by chance) offer some
protection. Not that I know what they may be. Ultimately, when everyone has a
bioprinter*, your only safety will be having as little in common with everyone
else as possible, to raise the cost of creating the custom bug.

And this will bring some profound changes.

* genetic engineering is today where computers were in 1950-ties. Huge
buildings staffed with government/corporate contractors. 


=====
end
(of original message)

Y-a*h*o-o (yes, they scan for this) spam follows:
Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
http://personals.yahoo.com




From tcmay at got.net  Sun Oct 14 12:47:20 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 12:47:20 -0700
Subject: More on "new physics"
In-Reply-To: <3BC9E9AA.2060400@dragonsweb.org>
Message-ID: <477DEE19-C0DC-11D5-9467-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Sunday, October 14, 2001, at 12:38 PM, James B. DiGriz wrote:

> ..stuff elided...


Could folks please try to use appropriate quoting software to separate 
what they are writing from what they are responding to?

--Tim May
--Tim May
"You don't expect governments to obey the law because of some higher 
moral development. You expect them to obey the law because they know 
that if they don't, those who aren't shot will be hanged." - -Michael 
Shirley




From measl at mfn.org  Sun Oct 14 10:48:21 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 12:48:21 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [OT] Anthrax protocol issued.
Message-ID: 



Interesting even though OT.

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

---------------------------------
Guidelines for Responding to “Anthrax Threats”

“Anthrax Threats” (Letters, Packages, etc.)
· Notify local law enforcement and the Federal Bureau of
Investigation (FBI) [Atlanta Field Office, 404-679-9000, 24/7].
· Double bag the letter or package in plastic bags using latex
gloves and a particulate (or TB) mask.
· Ensure that all persons who have touched the letter (package) wash
their hands with soap and water.
· Ensure that all persons who have touched the letter (package)
remain on site until emergency personnel arrive; list all persons
who physically handled the letter (package) and provide the list to
authorities.
· Notify local, district, and state public health (see contact
numbers at the end of this document).
· Substances in letters can be tested at the Georgia Public Health
Laboratory (GPHL) at the request of the FBI.
· Decisions about the need for decontamination and initiation of
antibiotic prophylaxis should be made in consultation with public
health officials.  In most circumstances, the decision to initiate
prophylaxis can be delayed until the presence or absence of Bacillus
anthracis can be determined.
· CDC currently does NOT recommend the use of nasal swab specimens
as part of evaluating anthrax threats/implied threats or evaluating
concerned citizens who think they may have been exposed to anthrax.
· For further information see:
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00056353.htm

Asymptomatic Persons WITHOUT Known Exposure to Anthrax
(“Worried well”—includes low risk threats)
· Provide reassurance about the low risk for infection without known
exposure and education about anthrax as an agent in bioterrorism;
· Recommend referral to private health care provider for further
concerns and/or diagnostics as deemed appropriate.  Currently, no
screening tests are available for the detection of anthrax infection
in the absence of symptoms.  Nasal swabs may be useful as an
epidemiologic tool when a confirmed case is identified but are not
routinely used for diagnosis or screening. CDC currently does NOT
recommend the use of nasal swab specimens as part of evaluating
anthrax threats/implied threats or evaluating concerned citizens who
think they may have been exposed to anthrax.

Asymptomatic Persons WITH Known Exposure to Anthrax or to Credible
Anthrax Threats
· Conduct individual risk assessment in coordination with public
health officials and refer to private health care provider if
post-exposure prophylaxis is necessary.  Currently, no screening
tests are available for the detection of anthrax infection in the
absence of symptoms.  Although data are limited, nasal swabs may be
useful if performed early (within 0-24 hours) following known or
credible inhalation exposure to B. anthracis.
· In this situation, decontamination of patients and their clothing
is NOT routinely recommended.
· Patients should be educated regarding clinical symptoms of anthrax
infection and advised to seek medical attention immediately if they
develop fever or flu-like illness.
· Postexposure Prophylaxis (PEP) Recommendations :
(Inglesby, et al. Anthrax as a Biological Weapon: Medical and Public
Health Management, JAMA 1999; 281 (No. 18): 1735-45.)
- Adults: Initially ciprofloxacin 500 mg orally q 12 hrs. Optimal
PEP for adults (once susceptibility is known) amoxicillin 500 mg
orally q 8 hrs or doxycycline 100 mg orally q 12 hrs.
- Children: Initially ciprofloxacin 20-30 mg/kg per day orally
divided into 2 daily doses, not to exceed 1 g/d.  Optimal PEP for
children (once susceptibility is known) if child <20 kg, administer
amoxicillin 40 mg/kg divided into 3 doses q 8 hrs; if child > or =
20 kg give amoxicillin 500 mg orally q 8 hrs.
- Postexposure prophylaxis should be continued for 60 days.
- Postexposure prophylaxis may be discontinued if laboratory studies
and investigation have ruled out the presence of B. anthracis.

Hospitalized Patients with Symptoms Compatible with Anthrax
· Immediately notify local, district, and state public health
officials so that rapid epidemiologic investigation can be
initiated.
· Confirm the diagnosis: Obtain the appropriate laboratory specimens
based on clinical form of anthrax (inhalational, gastrointestinal,
or cutaneous) suspected.
- Specimens for possible cutaneous anthrax: vesicular fluid (Gram
stain & culture) and/or blood cultures
- Specimens for possible gastrointestinal anthrax: vomitus, feces,
and/or blood cultures
- Specimens for possible inhalational anthrax: nasal swab, blood,
CSF, and/or sputum cultures
- For further information on specimen collection and handling, refer
to protocol “Laboratory Procedures for the identification of
Bacillus anthracis”.
· Note: A widened mediastinum on chest radiograph with respiratory
distress in a previously healthy patient with antecedent flu-like
illness is highly suspect for advanced inhalational anthrax.
· Initial microbiologic testing for presumptive anthrax diagnosis
should be performed in hospital clinical laboratories according to
the protocol “Laboratory Procedures for the identification of
Bacillus anthracis”..
· The Georgia Public Health Laboratory serves as a reference
laboratory and can confirm suspect bacterial isolates but are not
equipped to routinely culture primary clinical specimens (blood,
sputum, etc.) except in emergency situations or if the hospital
clinical laboratory is unable to perform the presumptive tests.





From garyg at haier.com  Sun Oct 14 10:59:14 2001
From: garyg at haier.com (garyg at haier.com)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 12:59:14 -0500
Subject: Spin the wheel                         24568
Message-ID: <000017b540c8$00007804$00005ff8@human.toyogakuen-u.ac.jp>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 2891 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org  Sun Oct 14 10:08:31 2001
From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 13:08:31 -0400
Subject: Safeweb Hotmail Question
References: <200110131411.KAA29044@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>  <3BC86716.5040108@dragonsweb.org>  <5.1.0.14.2.20011013145602.00a3b940@pop.gmx.net> <20011014102305.B8394@cluebot.com> <3BC9AFB0.8020205@dragonsweb.org>
Message-ID: <3BC9C68F.4060805@dragonsweb.org>


James B. DiGriz wrote:

> Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
>> On Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 03:32:00PM -0700, Luthor Blisset wrote:
>>
>>>         Last time I checked, rtmark made some of the most clever 
>>> anti-corporate propaganda I've ever seen. I'm extremely skeptical of 
>>> any claims that they are part of what they seem to so diligently oppose.
>>>
>>
>> This jibes with what I know (I've written about and spoken with
>> these blokes a few times, FWIW).
>>
>> -Declan
>>
>>
>>
> 
> And I think you've been hornswoggled. I'm gonna just leave it at that 
> and disagree with you.
> 
> jbdigriz
> 
> 

Upon reflection, I have to add that I'm not claiming they indeed hoaxed 
the meeting. It just struck me as being their style. Fortunately for 
them, any other ad agency or markteting firm in the country, among other 
possibilities, is fully capable of a stunt like this.

jbdigriz




From measl at mfn.org  Sun Oct 14 11:10:47 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 13:10:47 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: on the mexican radio.. ciproxolina
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011013185101.0097f870@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: 



On Sat, 13 Oct 2001, David Honig wrote:

> Spanish TV station on.  They're still playing the Taliban (tsk tsk) and

No, "tsk tsk" to the "free" united states for censoring the Taliban.  If
we are so fucking "right" then we should not be afraid of their
"propaganda".

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Sun Oct 14 04:12:50 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 13:12:50 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Missing details on Afghanistan: Natural Gas (fwd)
Message-ID: 




-- Eugen* Leitl leitl
______________________________________________________________
ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204
57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: 13 Oct 2001 14:29:45 -0400
From: Gary Lawrence Murphy 
To: fork 
Subject: Missing details on Afghanistan: Natural Gas


Something I haven't seen appear on this list before but which may
or may not be significant:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/afghan.html

  "Afghanistan's significance from an energy standpoint stems from its
  geographical position as a potential transit route for oil and
  natural gas exports from Central Asia to the Arabian Sea.  This
  potential includes the possible construction of oil and natural gas
  export pipelines through Afghanistan, which was under serious
  consideration in the mid-1990s.  The idea has since been undermined
  by Afghanistan's instability.

  ...

  "The Soviets had estimated Afghanistan's proven and probable natural
  gas reserves at up to 5 trillion cubic feet (Tcf) in the 1970s.
  Afghan natural gas production reached 275 million cubic feet per day
  (Mmcf/d) in the mid-1970s. However, due to declining reserves from
  producing fields, output gradually fell to about 220 Mmcf/d by
  1980. At that time, the Jorquduq field was brought online and was
  expected to boost Afghan natural gas output to 385 Mmcf/d by the
  early 1980s. However, sabotage of infrastructure by the anti-Soviet
  mujaheddin fighters limited the country's total production to 290
  Mmcf/d, an output level that was held fairly steady until the Soviet
  withdrawal in 1989. After the Soviet pullout and subsequent Afghan
  civil war, roughly 31 producing wells at Sheberghan area fields were
  shut in pending the restart of natural gas sales to the former
  Soviet Union.

  "At its peak in the late 1970s, Afghanistan supplied 70%-90% of its
  natural gas output to the Soviet Union's natural gas grid via a link
  through Uzbekistan. In 1992, Afghan President Najibullah indicated
  that a new natural gas sales agreement with Russia was in
  progress. However, several former Soviet republics raised price and
  distribution issues and negotiations stalled. In the early 1990s,
  Afghanistan also discussed possible natural gas supply arrangements
  with Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and several Western European
  countries, but these talks never progressed further.  Afghan natural
  gas fields include Jorqaduq, Khowaja Gogerdak, and Yatimtaq, all of
  which are located within 20 miles of the northern town of Sheberghan
  in Jowzjan province.  Natural gas production and distribution is the
  responsibility of the Taliban-controlled Afghan Gas Enterprise.  In
  1999, work resumed on the repair of a distribution pipeline to
  Mazar-i-Sharif.  Spur pipelines to a small power plant and
  fertilizer plant also were repaired and completed.  Mazar-i-Sharif
  is now receiving natural gas from the pipeline, as well as some
  other surrounding areas.  Rehabilitation of damaged natural gas
  wells has been undertaken at the Khowaja Gogerak field, which has
  increased natural gas production."




http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork




From oa at acm.org  Sun Oct 14 13:20:55 2001
From: oa at acm.org (Optimizzin Al-gorithm)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 13:20:55 -0700
Subject: brown sugar, how come you dance so sweet?
Message-ID: <3BC9F3A6.725DA6C6@acm.org>


> Re: possession of brown sugar and envelopes illegal ?

Actually pollen would be a lot closer than unfiltered sugar.
I believe lycopodium (a moss) spores are used as anthrax simulant,
you know, the powder in the vial you toss at the congresscritters
at the beginning of the Meeting, to make them mess their pants
and give your Project money.

At 12:45 PM 10/14/01 -0700, Morlock Elloi wrote:
>Targeted bioweapons will offer, for the first time, opportunity to get
rid of
>"others". The more "others" present a monoculture group (genetically,
eating
>habbits, behavioural patterns) the easier it will be to target them. In
this
>regard bioweapons work directly against what was driving force in
history so
>far - grandfalooning around concepts, feeling safe among the same.
>
>
>And this will bring some profound changes.

You may be interested in what David Brin writes about cultures actually
encouraging
(some) eccentricity in _Transparent Society_.   He also groks the
metaphor of societal
antibodies (and "T-cells" etc).




From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org  Sun Oct 14 10:37:38 2001
From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 13:37:38 -0400
Subject: possession of brown sugar and envelopes illegal ?
References: <20011014051238.33388.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com> <20011014102812.C8394@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <3BC9CD62.80001@dragonsweb.org>


Declan McCullagh wrote:

> On Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 10:12:38PM -0700, Morlock Elloi wrote:
> 
>>Maybe the high density living that we are so used to is incompatible with new
>>weapons. Maybe societal structures based on projectile-throwing weaponry are
>>passe. New weapons always changed rules, and it was called progress.
>>
> 
> I think that's an interesting argument, but you'll note that the Florida
> Anthrax case targeted a firm that was hardly in a "high density living"
> situation. Apparently it was a nondescript suburb.
> 
> Throughout history people have congregated together, in family groups
> and small tribes. It strike me as hardly likely that we'll give up
> that pleasure because of some vague fear of anthrax. (Maybe huge
> island cities like NYC, however, will see a sudden erosion of
> residents.) Instead we'll take proper precautions and continue
> meeting.
> 
> This is a perfect market opportunity for a "mail opening and detoxification"
> firm that would be employed by media groups and large, hated computer
> companies as a contractor. Think food tasters, but different.
> 
> -Declan
> 
> 
> 

Maybe, but what you're talking about is fighting for crumbs falling from 
those hoarding ever shrinking pieces of pie.

What there is a real market opportunity and need for are venues for the 
younger (and older) progeny of ruling elites from Saudi Arabia to the 
U.S., to wherever, to excercise their territoriality and personal 
hegemony, instead of fomenting jihads, revolutions, wars, coups, etc. 
Space is a logical opportunity.

The war on "terrorism" is doomed. This bunch is fucked, but there will 
*alwayy* be more to replace them, and always just cause for their 
actions, in their minds if not in reality.

I'm suspending my cynicism for the moment because this has been such a
shock to so many, but it's hard not suspect malice on the part of those 
in positions to do something about this for so long, who didn't, with 
every opportunity. I'd hate to think they were just stupid instead. It'd 
mean they didn't deserve their advantages, maybe.



jbdigriz




From alan at clueserver.org  Sun Oct 14 13:40:46 2001
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 13:40:46 -0700
Subject: stupid anthrax q: would microwaving your snail mail help?
In-Reply-To: <3BC9F164.4BE4C9EE@sunder.net>
References: <3BC9F164.4BE4C9EE@sunder.net>
Message-ID: <20011014231015.3A5C86E42@clueserver.org>


On Sunday 14 October 2001 13:11, sunder wrote:
> This is a stupid question but as I'm not a biologist, I'll ask it anyway
> and risk looking foolish...
>
> Would it help to microwave your mail if you don't know where it came from
> and you're sure it doesn't contain an objects?  i.e. it's not a CD you've
> ordered from Amazon. :)
>
> Do anthrax spores get cooked enough by microwaves to be killed, or are they
> too dry in spore form to be nuked?
>
> Of course, if we start mass nuking our mail, the terrorists might mail us
> something that would explode when nuked... still, for now it's a question
> to ask.

Will foil-embossed Halmark cards ignite if microwaved?  How about things with 
staples in them?

This anthrax situation is just someone being a spore sport...




From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org  Sun Oct 14 10:43:22 2001
From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 13:43:22 -0400
Subject: A REALLY DIFFERENT terrorist threat view.
References: <4F9051E6-C0B9-11D5-9467-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <3BC9CEBA.2040000@dragonsweb.org>


Tim May wrote:


The "new physics" stuff is quite different. It is scorned in a way that plate tectonics was not, and for good reason. Folks should visit Bearden's site. http://www.cheniere.org/correspondence/index.html


I did. Oh, dear.

Not sure what is supposed to be denoted by "Tesla physics", but Tesla's work with power transmission via HF is fascinating, even if there was apparently no practical or safe use for it.

jbdigriz








From measl at mfn.org  Sun Oct 14 11:50:21 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 13:50:21 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: More on "new physics"
In-Reply-To: <3BC9DC4A.5060108@dragonsweb.org>
Message-ID: 



On Sun, 14 Oct 2001, James B. DiGriz wrote:

> I'm really gonna have set up some decent filtering. I'm subscribed to a 
> couple of nodes, plus some nodes reply-to the list, others the sender. 
> Replying to the list is more convenient for me, as I seldom send private 
>   messages out of a list discussion. I do tend to think about the 
> message more than the addressing, and  every so often I fire one off 
> without looking.

It'll probably be easier for you to just unsuscrive ;-)

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Sun Oct 14 14:14:57 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 14:14:57 -0700
Subject: [OT] Anthrax protocol issued.
In-Reply-To: ; from measl@mfn.org on Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 12:48:21PM -0500
References: 
Message-ID: <20011014141457.C24853@navel.introspect>

on Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 12:48:21PM -0500, measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) wrote:
> Interesting even though OT.
> 
> -- 
> Yours, 
> J.A. Terranson
> sysadmin at mfn.org
> 
> ---------------------------------
> Guidelines for Responding to Anthrax Threats
> 
> Anthrax Threats (Letters, Packages, etc.)
> 7 Notify local law enforcement and the Federal Bureau of
> Investigation (FBI) [Atlanta Field Office, 404-679-9000, 24/7].

Reference?

Could you please try posting *legible* content?  This is utterly
unreadable.

-- 
Karsten M. Self        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?             Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html
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From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org  Sun Oct 14 11:41:14 2001
From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 14:41:14 -0400
Subject: More on "new physics"
References: <95F357A4-C0CA-11D5-9467-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <3BC9DC4A.5060108@dragonsweb.org>


Tim May wrote:

> Someone sent me a private note. I have deleted his name for this public 
> reply.
> 

I'm really gonna have set up some decent filtering. I'm subscribed to a 
couple of nodes, plus some nodes reply-to the list, others the sender. 
Replying to the list is more convenient for me, as I seldom send private 
  messages out of a list discussion. I do tend to think about the 
message more than the addressing, and  every so often I fire one off 
without looking.

My bad.

jbdigriz





From friendz at openxxx.net  Sun Oct 14 14:50:25 2001
From: friendz at openxxx.net (friendz at openxxx.net)
Date: 14 Oct 2001 14:50:25 -0700
Subject: Hello, your friend recommended openxxx.net to you
Message-ID: 




	You have been invited to check out this adult site
	     by one of your friends who visited us.

click here , our URL is: http://www.openxxx.net/
	enjoy,
						OpenXXX TEAM 2001





From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Sun Oct 14 15:16:38 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 15:16:38 -0700
Subject: [OT] Anthrax protocol issued.
In-Reply-To: ; from measl@mfn.org on Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 04:58:07PM -0500
References: <20011014141457.C24853@navel.introspect> 
Message-ID: <20011014151638.D26277@navel.introspect>

on Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 04:58:07PM -0500, measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Oct 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote:
> 
> > Could you please try posting *legible* content?  This is utterly
> > unreadable.
> 
> How about you go fuck yourself?

I'm always willing to learn from a master of the art.

> Your constant bitching about formatting is old.  I have posted it as I
> received it - ugly, from a windblow$ luser.

A minute with vi will clean it up markedly.  It's a common courtesy.
Naturally, the intersection of same with cpunks returns a small set.

Peace.

-- 
Karsten M. Self        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?             Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html
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From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org  Sun Oct 14 12:38:18 2001
From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 15:38:18 -0400
Subject: More on "new physics"
References: <95F357A4-C0CA-11D5-9467-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <3BC9E9AA.2060400@dragonsweb.org>


Tim May wrote:



"Tesla physics" is all the cruft that has developed around some of his 
more obscure (and late) writings, usually mixed together with stuff
Tesla could not have known about at the time of his death. To wit, the 
stuff about zero point energy and perpetual motion machines. And, 
sometimes, mixed together with the usual nutcase stuff about the Hollow 
Earth theory (zeta reticulans colonizing the hollow earth, Greys, 
underground UFO bases, secret Nazi weapons, etc.).




Thought that's what you meant. Wasn't aware that he had developed any 
actual new physics. I do know he was desparate for funds at the end and 
might have fallen prey to some embellishment and license. That he was 
arguably ill-treated might factor into it, too. Too bad his papers were 
spirited away and classified so we can't judge for ourselves, though. 
Look what government paranoia has engendered in this case.

and beyond SS, is NOT the same as saying there are conrmed "problems" 
with electromagnetic theory. There may be, and there are a handful of 
folks doing "foundational" work in E&M, but, so far, there are no 
indications that their foundational work is changing any engineering 
calculations. Quite the contrary, in my view. Electromagnetic theory 
basically "works"--to many decimal places of accuracy. Circuits work as 
expected, antennas work as expected, and there are no "unexplained 
observations" (as usually exist before a new theory arrives). There may 
be some _semantic_ issues, e.g., does a square wave or impulse "really" 
have components that were sent out _before_ the square wave or impulse? 
(A Fourier decomposition of a square wave starting at time t = 0 has 
"sine wave components" spread out over time and adding up in such a way 
as to give the square wave, or the impulse, or any other signal. Some 
think this means deep and mysterious things are happening, something 
having to do with time travel and reversing the aging process, blah blah 
blah.

Henning Harmuth may write fairly eloquently about the "dogma of the 
circle" and how  the Fourier decomposition of a signal into (allegedly) 
a near-infinite series of sine waves is "not real," but for all intents 
and purposes it all works. And the "new physics" people like Bearden go 
way beyond what Harmuth and Barrett are talking about: they bring in 
"curved space-time" and gravitation and antigravity and the ultra-weird 
notion that aging can be reversed by "pumping the conjugate time-axis of 
the Minkowski manifold" (OK, I made this up...don't have time to lift 
one of Bearden's direct quotes...and this will help train me in the 
jargon if I ever become a "new physicist.").

Nut cases like Bearden have the patter of physics down. Very few actual 
physicists waste their time dissecting and refuting Bearden for obvious 
reasons.



Thanks for the references, which aren't familiar to me. I'll check them out.



I urge readers of this list not to waste time on this stuff.



One of the best ways to learn physics is to find out why perpetual 
motion doesn't work. Once [:-)] .


jbdigriz









From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org  Sun Oct 14 12:40:20 2001
From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 15:40:20 -0400
Subject: More on "new physics"
References: 
Message-ID: <3BC9EA24.8050202@dragonsweb.org>


measl at mfn.org wrote:

> On Sun, 14 Oct 2001, James B. DiGriz wrote:
> 
> 
>>I'm really gonna have set up some decent filtering. I'm subscribed to a 
>>couple of nodes, plus some nodes reply-to the list, others the sender. 
>>Replying to the list is more convenient for me, as I seldom send private 
>>  messages out of a list discussion. I do tend to think about the 
>>message more than the addressing, and  every so often I fire one off 
>>without looking.
>>
> 
> It'll probably be easier for you to just unsuscrive ;-)
> 
> 

Aaah, don't be a smartass :-)




From mtc at michigan.usa.com  Sun Oct 14 13:45:39 2001
From: mtc at michigan.usa.com (mtc at michigan.usa.com)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 01 15:45:39 EST
Subject: Hi!
Message-ID: <200110142003.FAA05778@tsftkk001.kenshu.pref.hiroshima.jp>


Hi,

We were told (purchased list) that you are doing some selling online and hope you are doing well these days.

If you are still open to try something different, we may have the perfect opportunity for you!  Since we started this new opportunity a few months ago, we've been having fantastic responses--something you rarely see these days.

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It is also the EASIEST business you can find.  Many people are making $500 - $10,000 a month just part time. 

For your FREE information, please click on the email link below, then hit send:
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AP Systems

==================================================
We won't contact you again if you do not request any further information.  
Thank you!
==================================================





From mtc at michigan.usa.com  Sun Oct 14 13:45:39 2001
From: mtc at michigan.usa.com (mtc at michigan.usa.com)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 01 15:45:39 EST
Subject: Hi!
Message-ID: <200110142003.FAA05810@tsftkk001.kenshu.pref.hiroshima.jp>


Hi,

We were told (purchased list) that you are doing some selling online and hope you are doing well these days.

If you are still open to try something different, we may have the perfect opportunity for you!  Since we started this new opportunity a few months ago, we've been having fantastic responses--something you rarely see these days.

The business has more than 10 years of solid history, and is still expanding rapidly! 
With a fully automated online system now in place we are experiencing the FASTEST growth in the industry.

It is also the EASIEST business you can find.  Many people are making $500 - $10,000 a month just part time. 

For your FREE information, please click on the email link below, then hit send:
mailto:cominguway at yahoo.com?subject=PleaseSendMoreInformation 

You will be glad you did!

We appreciate your time and I look forward to working with you. 


AP Systems

==================================================
We won't contact you again if you do not request any further information.  
Thank you!
==================================================





From friendz at openxxx.net  Sun Oct 14 13:47:01 2001
From: friendz at openxxx.net (friendz at openxxx.net)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 15:47:01 -0500
Subject: Hello, your friend recommended openxxx.net to you
Message-ID: <200110142047.f9EKl1S16939@ak47.algebra.com>




	You have been invited to check out this adult site
	     by one of your friends who visited us.

click here , our URL is: http://www.openxxx.net/
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From flagstshirt at usa.com  Sun Oct 14 15:49:51 2001
From: flagstshirt at usa.com (Support USA)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 15:49:51 -0700
Subject: Help Relief Efforts ; Profits fully donated to ARC.
Message-ID: <3420188-2200110014224951993@usa.com>


  
   
   
  
 
  
Visit

Click here to order the T-Shirt
 100% of the proceeds to be contributed to the American Red Cross Disaster Relief fund. Flag also available on mugs, mousepads, etc.
    To remove yourself from this mailing list, please click here 

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From anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org  Sun Oct 14 13:56:00 2001
From: anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org (Incognito Innominatus)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 15:56:00 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: More on "new physics" 
Message-ID: 


> sometimes, mixed together with the usual nutcase stuff about the
> Hollow  Earth theory (zeta reticulans colonizing the hollow earth,
> Greys,  underground UFO bases, secret Nazi weapons, etc.).

This aggression against the ufo bases will not stand.
I'm not saying that they exist, I will do so when I am inside but the
aggression against
them will not stand. I repeat it will not stand, that's the
aggression against the ufo bases.

On the Zetas. Obviously we have (in more cases than one -
"ubernormal") events that have transpired. These
have lead to a few people claiming that they know the whereabouts of
"figures" involved.
In a powerful vision to Tim May I could speak finnish. It would be
really unfortunate if Tim May then concluded
that I am of finnish descent. *

Nazi...Never heard anything interested about it, except some
sightings in Italy during the Mussolini reign.
Probably misinterpreted speculations, again. However occult links to
alot of national socialist circles exist.

1488 and hail the ufobases, american bitches.

* dogon vocalist with lyrical mischief?




From xeni at xeni.net  Sun Oct 14 15:58:11 2001
From: xeni at xeni.net (Xeni Jardin)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 15:58:11 -0700
Subject: on the mexican radio.. ciproxolina
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011013185101.0097f870@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: 


DH wrote:

> Spanish TV station on.  They're still playing the Taliban (tsk tsk) and
> translating into Spanish.  I don't speak spanish so I am not incited
> by the subliminal messages to go jihad a bunch of people.
>
> But then they show what I take to be americans visiting mexico to
> buy "ciproxolina".  Haven't seen that on gringo tube.


Yup. I've been spending considerable time in and around Tijuana
recently--tourism numbers are way down, but the Cipro-inspired border crossing
thing is real. There is also a considerable degree of freaking out at present
among Mexican citizens themselves over the threat of anthrax (newscasts are
talking about "Anthrax Psychosis" spreading throughout Mexico.)

In addition to the contrasting coverage of Al-Qaeda video releases (US is
censoring them, MX isn't...yet), networks like Univision and Telemundo are
covering a number of other angles to the broader story we're not seeing from
US-owned media. For instance, reports (like the url below) on the effect of 9-11
on illegal drug trafficking. Bottom line: heroin & coke prices are spiking due
to heightened security along narcotrafficking corridors into the US. Don't hold
your breath waiting for CNN to cover that news, amigo.



XJ




From auto301094 at hushmail.com  Sun Oct 14 15:59:27 2001
From: auto301094 at hushmail.com (auto301094 at hushmail.com)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 15:59:27 -0700
Subject: stupid anthrax q: would microwaving your snail mail help?
Message-ID: <200110142259.f9EMxRB33402@mailserver1c.hushmail.com>

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From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org  Sun Oct 14 13:01:48 2001
From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 16:01:48 -0400
Subject: More on "new physics"
References: <477DEE19-C0DC-11D5-9467-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <3BC9EF2C.2040101@dragonsweb.org>


Tim May wrote:

> On Sunday, October 14, 2001, at 12:38 PM, James B. DiGriz wrote:
> 
>> ..stuff elided...
> 
> 
> 
> Could folks please try to use appropriate quoting software to separate 
> what they are writing from what they are responding to?


I'm not even gonna try to explain.

Think it's time to go eat dinner.

jbdigriz




From sunder at sunder.net  Sun Oct 14 13:11:16 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 16:11:16 -0400
Subject: stupid anthrax q: would microwaving your snail mail help?
Message-ID: <3BC9F164.4BE4C9EE@sunder.net>


This is a stupid question but as I'm not a biologist, I'll ask it anyway and risk
looking foolish...

Would it help to microwave your mail if you don't know where it came from and you're sure it doesn't contain an objects?  i.e. it's
not a CD you've ordered from Amazon. :)

Do anthrax spores get cooked enough by microwaves to be killed, or are they too dry in spore form to be nuked?

Of course, if we start mass nuking our mail, the terrorists might mail us something that would explode when nuked... still, for now
it's a question to ask.

-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From secret_squirrel at nym.alias.net  Sun Oct 14 09:26:38 2001
From: secret_squirrel at nym.alias.net (Secret Squirrel)
Date: 14 Oct 2001 16:26:38 -0000
Subject: Travelling Salesman Problem solved! (Was: One-way tickets)
References: <3BC47227.9070001@dragonsweb.org>
  <9q230e$lsm$1@abraham.cs.berkeley
Message-ID: <20011014162638.6671.qmail@nym.alias.net>





From morlockelloi at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 14 16:31:15 2001
From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 16:31:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: brown sugar, how come you dance so sweet?
In-Reply-To: <3BCA000D.6050204@dragonsweb.org>
Message-ID: <20011014233115.72847.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com>


> Will folks please try not to anthropomorphize, abstract concepts? Or, 
> vice-versa, conceptualize living, breathing people?

If you feel compelled to operate within your particular brand of
brainwashing/ideology/virtuality/religion then this list may not be for you.
Instead, take these issues with your rabbi, priest, soccer mom or preferred TV
personality.

Breathing, BTW, is just burning non-renewable resource.


=====
end
(of original message)

Y-a*h*o-o (yes, they scan for this) spam follows:
Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
http://personals.yahoo.com




From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Sun Oct 14 14:45:23 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 16:45:23 -0500
Subject: tesla papers
Message-ID: <3BCA074B.968C3687@cybershamanix.com>


       So why are Tesla's papers still classified anyway? I'm not in any
way arguing Bearden's case, but Tesla did indeed do some pretty
interesting stuff, and if the government finds a need to keep it secret
at this point, that seems more than a bit strange. Unless it's simply
that "once classified, always classified" is their norm, and no one has
taken the trouble to get them to release the stuff?

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver at cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html




From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Sun Oct 14 16:55:45 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 16:55:45 -0700
Subject: [OT] Anthrax protocol issued.
In-Reply-To: ;
  from measl@mfn.org on Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 12:48:21PM -0500
References: 
Message-ID: <20011014165545.D7020@navel.introspect>


Cleaned up.

on Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 12:48:21PM -0500, measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
wrote:
> Interesting even though OT.
>
> --
> Yours,
> J.A. Terranson
> sysadmin at mfn.org
>
> ---------------------------------
> Guidelines for Responding to "Anthrax Threats"
>
>
> "Anthrax Threats" (Letters, Packages, etc.)
>
>     - Notify local law enforcement and the Federal Bureau of
>       Investigation (FBI) [Atlanta Field Office, 404-679-9000, 24/7].
>
>     - Double bag the letter or package in plastic bags using latex
>       gloves and a particulate (or TB) mask.
>
>     - Ensure that all persons who have touched the letter (package) wash
>       their hands with soap and water.
>
>     - Ensure that all persons who have touched the letter (package)
>       remain on site until emergency personnel arrive; list all persons
>       who physically handled the letter (package) and provide the list
>       to authorities.
>
>     - Notify local, district, and state public health (see contact
>       numbers at the end of this document).
>
>     - Substances in letters can be tested at the Georgia Public Health
>       Laboratory (GPHL) at the request of the FBI.
>
>     - Decisions about the need for decontamination and initiation of
>       antibiotic prophylaxis should be made in consultation with public
>       health officials.  In most circumstances, the decision to initiate
>       prophylaxis can be delayed until the presence or absence of
>       Bacillus anthracis can be determined.
>
>     - CDC currently does NOT recommend the use of nasal swab specimens
>       as part of evaluating anthrax threats/implied threats or
>       evaluating concerned citizens who think they may have been exposed
>       to anthrax.
>
>     - For further information see:
>       http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00056353.htm
>
>
>
> Asymptomatic Persons WITHOUT Known Exposure to Anthrax
> ("Worried well" -- includes low risk threats)
>
>     - Provide reassurance about the low risk for infection without known
>       exposure and education about anthrax as an agent in bioterrorism;
>
>     - Recommend referral to private health care provider for further
>       concerns and/or diagnostics as deemed appropriate.  Currently, no
>       screening tests are available for the detection of anthrax
>       infection in the absence of symptoms.  Nasal swabs may be useful
>       as an epidemiologic tool when a confirmed case is identified but
>       are not routinely used for diagnosis or screening. CDC currently
>       does NOT recommend the use of nasal swab specimens as part of
>       evaluating anthrax threats/implied threats or evaluating concerned
>       citizens who think they may have been exposed to anthrax.
>
>
>
> Asymptomatic Persons WITH Known Exposure to Anthrax or to Credible
> Anthrax Threats
>
>     - Conduct individual risk assessment in coordination with public
>       health officials and refer to private health care provider if
>       post-exposure prophylaxis is necessary.  Currently, no screening
>       tests are available for the detection of anthrax infection in the
>       absence of symptoms.  Although data are limited, nasal swabs may
>       be useful if performed early (within 0-24 hours) following known
>       or credible inhalation exposure to B. anthracis.
>
>     - In this situation, decontamination of patients and their clothing
>       is NOT routinely recommended.
>
>     - Patients should be educated regarding clinical symptoms of anthrax
>       infection and advised to seek medical attention immediately if
>       they develop fever or flu-like illness.
>
>     - Postexposure Prophylaxis (PEP) Recommendations : (Inglesby, et al.
>       Anthrax as a Biological Weapon: Medical and Public Health
>       Management, JAMA 1999; 281 (No. 18): 1735-45.)
>
>     - Adults: Initially ciprofloxacin 500 mg orally q 12 hrs. Optimal
>       PEP for adults (once susceptibility is known) amoxicillin 500 mg
>       orally q 8 hrs or doxycycline 100 mg orally q 12 hrs.
>
>     - Children: Initially ciprofloxacin 20-30 mg/kg per day orally
>       divided into 2 daily doses, not to exceed 1 g/d.  Optimal PEP for
>       children (once susceptibility is known) if child <20 kg,
>       administer amoxicillin 40 mg/kg divided into 3 doses q 8 hrs; if
>       child > or = 20 kg give amoxicillin 500 mg orally q 8 hrs.
>
>     - Postexposure prophylaxis should be continued for 60 days.
>
>     - Postexposure prophylaxis may be discontinued if laboratory studies
>       and investigation have ruled out the presence of B. anthracis.
>
>
>
> Hospitalized Patients with Symptoms Compatible with Anthrax
>
>     - Immediately notify local, district, and state public health
>       officials so that rapid epidemiologic investigation can be
>       initiated.
>
>     - Confirm the diagnosis: Obtain the appropriate laboratory specimens
>       based on clinical form of anthrax (inhalational, gastrointestinal,
>       or cutaneous) suspected.
>
>     - Specimens for possible cutaneous anthrax: vesicular fluid (Gram
>       stain & culture) and/or blood cultures
>
>     - Specimens for possible gastrointestinal anthrax: vomitus, feces,
>       and/or blood cultures
>
>     - Specimens for possible inhalational anthrax: nasal swab, blood,
>       CSF, and/or sputum cultures
>
>     - For further information on specimen collection and handling, refer
>       to protocol "Laboratory Procedures for the identification of
>       Bacillus anthracis".
>
>     - Note: A widened mediastinum on chest radiograph with respiratory
>       distress in a previously healthy patient with antecedent flu-like
>       illness is highly suspect for advanced inhalational anthrax.
>
>     - Initial microbiologic testing for presumptive anthrax diagnosis
>       should be performed in hospital clinical laboratories according to
>       the protocol "Laboratory Procedures for the identification of
>       Bacillus anthracis"..
>
>     - The Georgia Public Health Laboratory serves as a reference
>       laboratory and can confirm suspect bacterial isolates but are not
>       equipped to routinely culture primary clinical specimens (blood,
>       sputum, etc.) except in emergency situations or if the hospital
>       clinical laboratory is unable to perform the presumptive tests.
>
>

--
Karsten M. Self        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?             Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]




From measl at mfn.org  Sun Oct 14 14:58:07 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 16:58:07 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [OT] Anthrax protocol issued.
In-Reply-To: <20011014141457.C24853@navel.introspect>
Message-ID: 



On Sun, 14 Oct 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote:

> Could you please try posting *legible* content?  This is utterly
> unreadable.

How about you go fuck yourself?

Your constant bitching about formatting is old.  I have posted it as I
received it - ugly, from a windblow$ luser.

If you have so much trouble reading EVERY goddamn post here, why don't you
just killfile us all?

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From measl at mfn.org  Sun Oct 14 15:02:09 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 17:02:09 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: tesla papers
In-Reply-To: <3BCA074B.968C3687@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: 



On Sun, 14 Oct 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote:

>        So why are Tesla's papers still classified anyway? I'm not in any
> way arguing Bearden's case, but Tesla did indeed do some pretty
> interesting stuff, and if the government finds a need to keep it secret
> at this point, that seems more than a bit strange. Unless it's simply

I would be willing to bet this stuff is still classified because the
classification reviewer doesn't understand gibberish when [s]he sees it,
and is afraid these "technologies" could wipe out some poor unsuspecting
oil company :-)

> that "once classified, always classified" is their norm, and no one has
> taken the trouble to get them to release the stuff?

This too is no doubt a large part of the problem.  Even with automatic
classification review, there is a strong underlying philosophy of once
secret, always secret.

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From fogstorm at mac.com  Sun Oct 14 17:03:51 2001
From: fogstorm at mac.com (FogStorm)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 17:03:51 -0700
Subject: stupid anthrax q: would microwaving your snail mail help?
In-Reply-To: <200110142259.f9EMxRB33402@mailserver1c.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: <200110142354.f9ENs8J02543@smtp-out.mac.com>


Control of Communicable Diseases Manual

http://www.anthrax.osd.mil/Site_Files/topten/apha-chin-anthrax.htm




From tcmay at got.net  Sun Oct 14 17:07:45 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 17:07:45 -0700
Subject: MIME cruft vs. straight ASCII 128
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Sunday, October 14, 2001, at 02:58 PM, measl at mfn.org wrote:

> On Sun, 14 Oct 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote:
>
>> Could you please try posting *legible* content?  This is utterly
>> unreadable.
>
> How about you go fuck yourself?
>
> Your constant bitching about formatting is old.  I have posted it as I
> received it - ugly, from a windblow$ luser.
>
> If you have so much trouble reading EVERY goddamn post here, why don't 
> you
> just killfile us all?

I agree with Measl. I sent "Karsten M. Self" (if that's his real name) 
to the cornfield for his worthless contributions and willful ignorance.

I got the "Anthrax protocol issued" post just fine. Maybe it's because I 
have "Show MIME" disabled. Maybe "Karsten M. Self" is complaining 
because he has MIME enabled.

(Which is presumably why we keep getting his MIME signatures attached to 
his mail, and which lne.com thoughtfully removes.)

Fact is, straight ASCII text is the lingua franca of the Net (note that 
"lingua franca" was NOT italicized in some non-ASCII 128 font). What is 
lost in not having accent agraves and umlauts and Farsi language fonts 
is more than made up for by having the "straight 128" ASCII character 
set.

--Tim May
"You don't expect governments to obey the law because of some higher 
moral development. You expect them to obey the law because they know 
that if they don't, those who aren't shot will be hanged." - -Michael 
Shirley




From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org  Sun Oct 14 14:13:49 2001
From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 17:13:49 -0400
Subject: brown sugar, how come you dance so sweet?
References: <3BC9F3A6.725DA6C6@acm.org>
Message-ID: <3BCA000D.6050204@dragonsweb.org>


Optimizzin Al-gorithm wrote:

>>Re: possession of brown sugar and envelopes illegal ?
>>
> 
> Actually pollen would be a lot closer than unfiltered sugar.
> I believe lycopodium (a moss) spores are used as anthrax simulant,
> you know, the powder in the vial you toss at the congresscritters
> at the beginning of the Meeting, to make them mess their pants
> and give your Project money.
> 
> At 12:45 PM 10/14/01 -0700, Morlock Elloi wrote:
> 
>>Targeted bioweapons will offer, for the first time, opportunity to get
>>
> rid of
> 
>>"others". The more "others" present a monoculture group (genetically,
>>
> eating
> 
>>habbits, behavioural patterns) the easier it will be to target them. In
>>
> this
> 
>>regard bioweapons work directly against what was driving force in
>>
> history so
> 
>>far - grandfalooning around concepts, feeling safe among the same.
>>
>>
>>And this will bring some profound changes.
>>
> 
> You may be interested in what David Brin writes about cultures actually
> encouraging
> (some) eccentricity in _Transparent Society_.   He also groks the
> metaphor of societal
> antibodies (and "T-cells" etc).
> 
> 
> 

Will folks please try not to anthropomorphize, abstract concepts? Or, 
vice-versa, conceptualize living, breathing people?

There is such a thing as being too clever by half.

jbdigriz






From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Sun Oct 14 17:45:25 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 17:45:25 -0700
Subject: Post formatting (was Re: MIME cruft vs. straight ASCII 128)
In-Reply-To: ; from
  tcmay@got.net on Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 05:07:45PM -0700
References: 
  
Message-ID: <20011014174524.B28738@navel.introspect>


on Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 05:07:45PM -0700, Tim May (tcmay at got.net) wrote:
> On Sunday, October 14, 2001, at 02:58 PM, measl at mfn.org wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 14 Oct 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote:
> >
> >> Could you please try posting *legible* content?  This is utterly
> >> unreadable.

> > Your constant bitching about formatting is old.  I have posted it as I
> > received it - ugly, from a windblow$ luser.

> I agree with Measl. I sent "Karsten M. Self" (if that's his real name)
> to the cornfield for his worthless contributions and willful ignorance.
>
> I got the "Anthrax protocol issued" post just fine. Maybe it's because I
> have "Show MIME" disabled. Maybe "Karsten M. Self" is complaining
> because he has MIME enabled.

Nope.  Pulling the same lne.com feed Tim is.  There were a number of odd
nonstandard characters (resolved as + S, R, and W, mostly "smart
quotes"), and in general poor linewrapping / spacing.  That -S
character is particularly annoying to root out on a GNU/Linux system.

My general list formatting preferences are pretty vanilla:

  - 72 character lines.
  - Postfix (reply-after-quote) response.
  - Attribution lines corresponding to quoted content.
  - Quoted-line prefix, preferably '> ' or '>'.
  - Standard ASCII content, as opposed to extended charactersets, HTML,
    or proprietary document formats.

The growing disregard of such conventions in many contexts is a growing
annoyance of the Net.

I happen to prefer signing messages per RFC 2015, and it's largely
habitual.  As lne.com de-mimes such attachments, this shouldn't be an
issue for much of this list.  I'm not an absolutist on MIME and extended
character sets, believing there are appropriate uses.   I'm satisfied
with the recent coverage of this topic here, no need to elaborate.

My point regards formatting:  in the majority of cases, a few moments
with a text editor is sufficient to greatly increase readability of of
posted content.  I happen to use vim, and can untangle most posts in
under a minute.  This is a matter of respect:  one person's doing so
saves the remainder the effort.  I've noted that the posts I've bounced
to list reformatted tend to gather response where originals don't.

I also prefer to denote cited text via indentation as:

    an example of a block
    of cited text.

I don't believe these are extraordinary preferences, and even sustpect
Mr. May may agree with me on several.

Peace.

--
Karsten M. Self        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?             Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]




From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org  Sun Oct 14 14:48:11 2001
From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 17:48:11 -0400
Subject: brown sugar, how come you dance so sweet?
References: <3BC9F3A6.725DA6C6@acm.org> <3BCA000D.6050204@dragonsweb.org>
Message-ID: <3BCA081B.5090904@dragonsweb.org>


James B. DiGriz wrote:

> Optimizzin Al-gorithm wrote:
> 

>> You may be interested in what David Brin writes about cultures actually
>> encouraging
>> (some) eccentricity in _Transparent Society_.   He also groks the
>> metaphor of societal
>> antibodies (and "T-cells" etc).
>
> 
> Will folks please try not to anthropomorphize, abstract concepts? Or, 
> vice-versa, conceptualize living, breathing people?
> 
> There is such a thing as being too clever by half.


After all, one man's T-cell is another man's malignant carcinoma.


jbdigriz

 






From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org  Sun Oct 14 14:55:34 2001
From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 17:55:34 -0400
Subject: tesla papers
References: <3BCA074B.968C3687@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <3BCA09D6.9010208@dragonsweb.org>


Harmon Seaver wrote:

>        So why are Tesla's papers still classified anyway? I'm not in any
> way arguing Bearden's case, but Tesla did indeed do some pretty
> interesting stuff, and if the government finds a need to keep it secret
> at this point, that seems more than a bit strange. Unless it's simply
> that "once classified, always classified" is their norm, and no one has
> taken the trouble to get them to release the stuff?
> 
> --
> Harmon Seaver, MLIS
> CyberShamanix
> Work 920-203-9633
> Home 920-233-5820
> hseaver at cybershamanix.com
> http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html
> 


I think they're supposed to be lost now. Of course, some will say this 
is just a cover story.

jbdigriz






From Wilfred at Cryogen.com  Sun Oct 14 15:11:23 2001
From: Wilfred at Cryogen.com (Wilfred L. Guerin)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 18:11:23 -0400
Subject: tesla papers
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20011014181123.017ec8c8@ct2.nai.net>




Lets just say, check out the staff list and 'reasoning' at 

http://www.mediafusion-llc.com ... 

I doubt all would be classified military ppl with a scapegoat engineer if
there wasnt a reason... 

Also 'inductive thrust {capacator/generator/etc}' might be an effective
search?

Note that em fields on power lines are significantly stronger, yet very
similar to those found around all physical objects, such as the earth,
etc... Relevance?

-Wilfred
Wilfred at Cryogen.com

At 04:45 PM 10/14/2001 -0500, you wrote:
>       So why are Tesla's papers still classified anyway? I'm not in any
>way arguing Bearden's case, but Tesla did indeed do some pretty
>interesting stuff, and if the government finds a need to keep it secret
>at this point, that seems more than a bit strange. Unless it's simply
>that "once classified, always classified" is their norm, and no one has
>taken the trouble to get them to release the stuff?
>
>--
>Harmon Seaver, MLIS
>CyberShamanix
>Work 920-203-9633
>Home 920-233-5820
>hseaver at cybershamanix.com
>http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html
>
>
>




From machines at smtp.ru  Sun Oct 14 08:11:51 2001
From: machines at smtp.ru (A)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 18:11:51 +0300
Subject: , , ...
Message-ID: <200110141325.GAA12825@ecotone.toad.com>


Óâàæàåìûå ãîñïîäà!       
Âàñ èíòåðåñóþò âîïðîñû êóïëè/ïðîäàæè îáîðóäîâàíèÿ?
Ðàáîòà íà âàëþòíîì ðûíêå áåç ñòàðòîâîãî êàïèòàëà?
Ðåêëàìà Âàøèõ ïðåäëîæåíèé â ñåòè Èíòåðíåò ïî ñêàçî÷íî 
íèçêèì ðàñöåíêàì?
Óñëóãè àóêöèîíà, êàòàëîãà ñàéòîâ, äîñêè îáúÿâëåíèé 
"Ðàáîòà"?
Åñëè äà, òî ïðîñòî îòïðàâüòå ïóñòîå ïèñüìî íà 
machines at sendfree.com è ïðèìåðíî ÷åðåç ìèíóòó ïðèä¸ò 
îòâåò ñ èíòåðåñóþùåé Âàñ èíôîðìàöèåé.
Åñëè æå Âàñ íå èíòåðåñóþò ýòè ïðåäëîæåíèÿ, òî ìû 
ïðèíîñèì ñâîè èçâèíåíèÿ è ãàðàíòèðóåì, ÷òî íà äàííûé 
àäðåñ áîëåå íå ïîñòóïèò èíôîðìàöèè îò íàñ. 




From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org  Sun Oct 14 15:59:47 2001
From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 18:59:47 -0400
Subject: brown sugar, how come you dance so sweet?
References: <3BC9F3A6.725DA6C6@acm.org> <3BCA000D.6050204@dragonsweb.org> <3BCA081B.5090904@dragonsweb.org>
Message-ID: <3BCA18E3.10008@dragonsweb.org>


James B. DiGriz failed to thoroughly digest his dinner before writng:

> James B. DiGriz wrote:
> 
>> Optimizzin Al-gorithm wrote:
>>
> 
>>> You may be interested in what David Brin writes about cultures actually
>>> encouraging
>>> (some) eccentricity in _Transparent Society_.   He also groks the
>>> metaphor of societal
>>> antibodies (and "T-cells" etc).
>>
>>
>>
>> Will folks please try not to anthropomorphize, abstract concepts? Or, 
>> vice-versa, conceptualize living, breathing people?
>>
>> There is such a thing as being too clever by half.
> 
> 
> 
> After all, one man's T-cell is another man's malignant carcinoma.


Damn. Souldn't have said that. I was just trying to illustrate the 
fallacy. It only just dawned on me how it might have sounded.

Let's just say I used to believe I was supposed to think like this, but 
have learned or rediscovered otherwise since. So now I have to control 
the zeal of the converted.

No hostility intended. and I hope none taken.

jbdigriz.

P..S. I do enjoy Brin et al, but I have little time  for recreational 
reading these days.









From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org  Sun Oct 14 16:36:32 2001
From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 19:36:32 -0400
Subject: tesla papers
References: <3BCA074B.968C3687@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <3BCA2180.7050904@dragonsweb.org>


Harmon Seaver wrote:

>        So why are Tesla's papers still classified anyway? I'm not in any
> way arguing Bearden's case, but Tesla did indeed do some pretty
> interesting stuff, and if the government finds a need to keep it secret
> at this point, that seems more than a bit strange. Unless it's simply
> that "once classified, always classified" is their norm, and no one has
> taken the trouble to get them to release the stuff?
> 
> --
> Harmon Seaver, MLIS
> CyberShamanix
> Work 920-203-9633
> Home 920-233-5820
> hseaver at cybershamanix.com
> http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html
> 
> 
> 

more info here:

http://www.pbs.org/tesla/ll/ll_mispapers.html

Some or most of them eventally went to his nephew and ended up in Tito's 
Yugoslavia. There is a Tesla Museum in Belgrade that houses them.

The missing papers were apparently copies of his partice beam work that 
were made for an Air Force weapon project. Whether the originals 
disappeared also is not clear from the PBS account.

jbdigriz




From jya at pipeline.com  Sun Oct 14 20:07:36 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 20:07:36 -0700
Subject: stupid anthrax q: would microwaving your snail mail help?
In-Reply-To: <200110142354.f9ENs8J02543@smtp-out.mac.com>
References: <200110142259.f9EMxRB33402@mailserver1c.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: <200110150013.UAA28120@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>


FogStorm wrote:

>Control of Communicable Diseases Manual
>
>http://www.anthrax.osd.mil/Site_Files/topten/apha-chin-anthrax.htm

For spread of communicable diseases manuals:

ANTHRAX.MIL.                           NS    NS01.ARMY.MIL.
NS01.ARMY.MIL.                         A     140.153.43.44
ANTHRAX.MIL.                           NS    NS02.ARMY.MIL.
NS02.ARMY.MIL.                         A     192.82.113.7



domain:        ANTHRAX.MIL
desc:          USAMISSA-SAT
auth:          MAIL-FROM HOSTMASTER at NIC.MIL
tech-c:        HOSTMASTER-PER
admin-c:       HOSTMASTER-PER
changed:       hostmaster at nic.mil 20011011
source:        DoDNIC

person:        DoD, Hostmaster 
address:       7990 Science Applications Court
address:       MS CV-50
phone:         (800) 365-3642
e-mail:        HOSTMASTER at NIC.MIL
nic-hdl:       HOSTMASTER-PER
changed:       hostmaster at nic.mil 20011010
source:        DoDNIC




From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org  Sun Oct 14 17:18:02 2001
From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 20:18:02 -0400
Subject: brown sugar, how come you dance so sweet?
References: <20011014233115.72847.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3BCA2B3A.5070002@dragonsweb.org>


Morlock Elloi wrote:

>>Will folks please try not to anthropomorphize, abstract concepts? Or, 
>>vice-versa, conceptualize living, breathing people?
>>
> 
> If you feel compelled to operate within your particular brand of
> brainwashing/ideology/virtuality/religion then this list may not be for you.
> Instead, take these issues with your rabbi, priest, soccer mom or preferred TV
> personality.



Heh, if you only knew. I have to say though that this is the most 
bizarre statement I've encountered in a long, long time. Well, I did ask 
for it.

Peace,
jbdigriz








From drevil at sidereal.kz  Sun Oct 14 13:27:50 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil)
Date: 14 Oct 2001 20:27:50 -0000
Subject: A REALLY DIFFERENT terrorist threat view.
In-Reply-To: <3701B95E-C066-11D5-9467-0050E439C473@got.net> (message
  from Tim May on Sat, 13 Oct 2001 22:42:11 -0700)
References: <3701B95E-C066-11D5-9467-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <20011014202750.6622.qmail@sidereal.kz>


> Consider some of what this URL talks about, the usual mumbo jumbo about
> zero point energy of the universe, folded spacetime, unlimited energy,
> cold fusion, and something called "inner infolded electromagnetics."

I am sorry, Senor May, but the man you refer to as a "nitwit" is
actually right in this case!  Tell me, how do you think I keep my yurt
warm here in Antarctica?  Do you think I call the local utility co and
have them string up a line?  No!  Cold is the main natural resource
down here, so I rely on cold fusion, although I have an inner infolded
electromagnetic range.  You think a big Viking gas range boils water
fast?  Well if you put this thing on any setting higher than "low" you
go from a block of polar ice to super-heated steam before you can say
"potholder".




From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org  Sun Oct 14 17:48:01 2001
From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 20:48:01 -0400
Subject: brown sugar, how come you dance so sweet?
References: <20011014233115.72847.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com> <3BCA2B3A.5070002@dragonsweb.org> <20011015001724.19869.qmail@sidereal.kz>
Message-ID: <3BCA3241.90104@dragonsweb.org>


Dr. Evil wrote:

>>Heh, if you only knew. I have to say though that this is the most 
>>bizarre statement I've encountered in a long, long time. Well, I did ask 
>>for it.
>>
> 
> Then you obviously haven't been reading my posts.
> 


Please rest assured that I find your posts very bizarre indeed. :-)

jbdigriz

 













From oa at acm.org  Sun Oct 14 20:50:49 2001
From: oa at acm.org (Optimizzin Al-gorithm)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 20:50:49 -0700
Subject: John Young Interpretation Society
Message-ID: <3BCA5D19.E07E6457@acm.org>


At 05:05 PM 10/13/01 -0700, John Young wrote:
>Pinging the WH is will shortly be a terrorist act warns Patriot,
>so better hurry before the bush hammers john henry.
>
>Anthrac, quack, quack.

The John Young Interpretation Society proffers these notes especially to
furriners:

1. John Henry --look it up, american folklore/song about man vs.
machine,
John H. lost to a railroad-nail driving machine.  An industrial Kasparov
vs. IBM.

2. Anthrac, quack quack,
derived from Aflac, some sort of US insurance company, which uses a
waterfowl
in its adverts, the bird's quacking sounding like the company name.
Quack is also
slang for sham doctor.   Nice multiple meanings there, soundplay, in
this one.

"Waitress, what kind of rhizome is that gentleman smoking?"




From oa at acm.org  Sun Oct 14 21:03:59 2001
From: oa at acm.org (Optimizzin Al-gorithm)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 21:03:59 -0700
Subject: brown sugar, how come you dance so sweet?
Message-ID: <3BCA602F.A67839A8@acm.org>


At 06:59 PM 10/14/01 -0400, James B. DiGriz wrote:
>James B. DiGriz failed to thoroughly digest his dinner before writng:
>
>> James B. DiGriz wrote:
>>
>>> Optimizzin Al-gorithm wrote:
>>>
>>
>>>> You may be interested in what David Brin writes about cultures
actually
>>>> encouraging
>>>> (some) eccentricity in _Transparent Society_.   He also groks the
>>>> metaphor of societal
>>>> antibodies (and "T-cells" etc).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Will folks please try not to anthropomorphize, abstract concepts?
Or,
>>> vice-versa, conceptualize living, breathing people?
>>>
>>> There is such a thing as being too clever by half.
>>
>>
>>
>> After all, one man's T-cell is another man's malignant carcinoma.
>
>
>Damn. Souldn't have said that. I was just trying to illustrate the
>fallacy. It only just dawned on me how it might have sounded.
>
>Let's just say I used to believe I was supposed to think like this, but

>have learned or rediscovered otherwise since. So now I have to control
>the zeal of the converted.
>
>No hostility intended. and I hope none taken.
>
>jbdigriz.
>
>P..S. I do enjoy Brin et al, but I have little time  for recreational
>reading these days.

Ok -this time :-)

I was pretty much paraphrasing Brin, who (agree or not) writes of
list-relevant
topics, though with more subtlety than implied by my brief reading
recommendation.




From oa at acm.org  Sun Oct 14 21:07:06 2001
From: oa at acm.org (Optimizzin Al-gorithm)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 21:07:06 -0700
Subject: How do I microwave my email?
Message-ID: <3BCA60E9.B9030419@acm.org>


>> Would it help to microwave your mail if you don't know where it came
from
>> and you're sure it doesn't contain an objects?  i.e. it's not a CD
you've
>> ordered from Amazon. :)

CDs from M$ and AOL should be microwaved.




From drevil at sidereal.kz  Sun Oct 14 14:07:58 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil)
Date: 14 Oct 2001 21:07:58 -0000
Subject: More on "new physics"
In-Reply-To: 
  (message from Incognito Innominatus on Sun, 14 Oct 2001 15:56:00 -0500
  (CDT))
References: 
Message-ID: <20011014210758.30453.qmail@sidereal.kz>


> In a powerful vision to Tim May I could speak finnish. It would be
> really unfortunate if Tim May then concluded
> that I am of finnish descent. *

Dude, we hablamos the same lingo!

Ja ja!




From inc at fastmedia.net  Sun Oct 14 04:14:18 2001
From: inc at fastmedia.net (cpaul)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 21:14:18 +1000
Subject: anthrax down under?
Message-ID: <005401c154a1$5f164f50$6600a8c0@THINKPAD>



http://www.smh.com.au/news/0110/14/national/national102.html


Anthrax scare evacuates Sydney Airport


Parts of the International Terminal at Sydney Airport have been evacuated
following the discovery of a suspicious package.

A Qantas spokeswoman says the international counter was closed after a white
powder-like substance was found in some meal vouchers about 4:30 this
afternoon.

She says no flights have been affected.

Australian Protective Services are now investigating the area.

It's believed some shops have been evacuated but the spokeswoman could not
confirm that.

AAP





From oa at acm.org  Sun Oct 14 21:20:09 2001
From: oa at acm.org (Optimizzin Al-gorithm)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 21:20:09 -0700
Subject: Osama bin Stego
Message-ID: <3BCA63F9.81C29C0C@acm.org>


In http://www.drudgereport.com/flash35.htm Drudge writes
"Not only Bin Laden's words but the 'configuration' of certain items on
the set were said to
have worried the Premier."

(E.g., rifle positioning)

I also noted that both the Taliban and Osama's last statements included
references to
"fire" --the mere repetition across two messages could be the indicator,
the word itself
a codeword.

Look ma, no computers used!

.......
Got Potassium Iodide?




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Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 21:33:48 -0700
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Message-ID: <200110150230.VAA13490@einstein.ssz.com>


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From anarchie at metaverse.org  Sun Oct 14 04:46:47 2001
From: anarchie at metaverse.org (Peter Tonoli)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 21:46:47 +1000 (EST)
Subject: anthrax down under?
In-Reply-To: <005401c154a1$5f164f50$6600a8c0@THINKPAD>
Message-ID: 


On Sun, 14 Oct 2001, cpaul wrote:

> Anthrax scare evacuates Sydney Airport

Seems all it just was a scare.



Powder proves harmless after Sydney anthrax scare

   Authorities have described as harmless a white powder-like substance
   found at the international terminal of Sydney Airport earlier today.
   An area near the Qantas check-in service was cordoned off as
   authorities in protective outfits examined the suspicious substance
   found on ticket documentation in the Qantas ticket sales office late
   this afternoon.
   A Qantas spokeswoman says the white powdery like substance was found
   on pre-printed documents.
   The scare comes as United States officials deal with five new cases of
   exposure to anthrax.

Peter
(waiting for anthrax scares from unsuspecting visitors to cocaine infested
nightclub toilets)

-- 
Until I loved, life had no beauty;
I did not know I lived until I had loved. (Theodor Korner)





From office at tangfeng.org  Sun Oct 14 06:57:28 2001
From: office at tangfeng.org (office at tangfeng.org)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 21:57:28 +0800
Subject: Beijing Tangfeng Culture Exchange Centre
Message-ID: <200110141357.GAA11211@toad.com>

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From office at tangfeng.org  Sun Oct 14 06:58:00 2001
From: office at tangfeng.org (office at tangfeng.org)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 21:58:00 +0800
Subject: Beijing Tangfeng Culture Exchange Centre
Message-ID: <200110141402.JAA04608@einstein.ssz.com>

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From drevil at sidereal.kz  Sun Oct 14 15:28:15 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil)
Date: 14 Oct 2001 22:28:15 -0000
Subject: stupid anthrax q: would microwaving your snail mail help?
In-Reply-To: <20011014231015.3A5C86E42@clueserver.org> (message from Alan on
	Sun, 14 Oct 2001 13:40:46 -0700)
References: <3BC9F164.4BE4C9EE@sunder.net> <20011014231015.3A5C86E42@clueserver.org>
Message-ID: <20011014222815.7507.qmail@sidereal.kz>


> > This is a stupid question but as I'm not a biologist, I'll ask it anyway
> > and risk looking foolish...
> >
> > Would it help to microwave your mail if you don't know where it came from
> > and you're sure it doesn't contain an objects?  i.e. it's not a CD you've
> > ordered from Amazon. :)
> >
> > Do anthrax spores get cooked enough by microwaves to be killed, or are they
> > too dry in spore form to be nuked?
> >
> > Of course, if we start mass nuking our mail, the terrorists might mail us
> > something that would explode when nuked... still, for now it's a question
> > to ask.

Spores tend to be pretty rugged.  One of the reasons anthrax is such
an ideal weapon is that its spores are rugged enough to tolerate being
used on missiles and bombs, which means extremes of temperature, I
supose.  I think you would need to microwave it pretty intensely to
kill it.  Microwave radiation is non-ionizing so it kills things by
heating the entire things, which means you need to use enough heat to
denature enough proteins to stop metabolism.  Using radio isotopes to
irradiate it would be a different matter.  That might be much more
effective and would do less damage to the mail than a microwave oven.
The right kinds of radiation are ionizing, which causes very reactive
free radicals to be formed in the cell.  It doesn't take very many of
these free radicals to damage the DNA beyond usefulness, usually by
breaking it.  Some organisms are radio resistant, which means they
have hyper-active DNA repair systems and multiple copies of important
enzymes.  This comes at a cost of needing more energy to run these
systems and to build more DNA so the organisms are at a disadvantage
compared to non-radio-resistant organisms in non-radio environments.

If you wanted to build a real weapon-type anthrax you could do stuff
like grow it with increasing levels of antiobiotics, so it would get
resistant to them, and then you could also expose it to heat,
radiation, whatever.  I'm sure the superpowers have done that kind of
stuff.  The principles behind this are simple, but the practice is
probably quite a challenge.  It would be interesting to know if the
anthrax that is showing up in the mail is the natural stuff or some
kind of weapon-grade stuff.

The safest thing to do is to stick to email.  In a yurt.  In
Antarctica.




From schear at lvcm.com  Sun Oct 14 22:31:02 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 22:31:02 -0700
Subject: Got Cipro?
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011014223002.03a6c7a8@pop3.lvcm.com>


I've created a small .jpg logo using the biohazard icon.

Contact me for copies.

steve




From schear at lvcm.com  Sun Oct 14 22:33:05 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 22:33:05 -0700
Subject: Get results
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011014223108.03e01b60@pop3.lvcm.com>


I've created a non-PC Qaeda  "ad"  suitable for Forbes or Fortune (large .jpg)

The first 10 callers get one ;-)

steve




From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Oct 14 06:23:27 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 23:23:27 +1000
Subject: anthrax down under
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011014231525.00a581a0@pop.useoz.com>


Its probably sweet and lo,sprinkle some on your vote next month,also your 
ISP bill for broadband.

When is the chicken shit US federal fuckhead govt of united snakes going to 
encrypt the everlovin'
reward money for the evel one? AP NOW,if not now,When?




From drevil at sidereal.kz  Sun Oct 14 17:17:24 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil)
Date: 15 Oct 2001 00:17:24 -0000
Subject: brown sugar, how come you dance so sweet?
In-Reply-To: <3BCA2B3A.5070002@dragonsweb.org> (jbdigriz@dragonsweb.org)
References: <20011014233115.72847.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com> <3BCA2B3A.5070002@dragonsweb.org>
Message-ID: <20011015001724.19869.qmail@sidereal.kz>


> Heh, if you only knew. I have to say though that this is the most 
> bizarre statement I've encountered in a long, long time. Well, I did ask 
> for it.

Then you obviously haven't been reading my posts.




From rice at coksa.com  Mon Oct 15 01:19:15 2001
From: rice at coksa.com (rice at coksa.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 03:19:15 -0500
Subject: Good luck                         29228
Message-ID: <00000f62660f$000019b1$0000722c@citizen.infi.net>

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From measl at mfn.org  Mon Oct 15 02:01:21 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 04:01:21 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Get results
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011014223108.03e01b60@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: 





"Me first!  I want one!!!"

This singular moment brought to you by J.A. Terranson, and Missouri
FreeNet - Working hard to earn your civic trust ;-)

-----------------------------------------

On Sun, 14 Oct 2001, Steve Schear wrote:

> Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 22:33:05 -0700
> From: Steve Schear 
> Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com
> To: cypherpunks at lne.com
> Subject: CDR: Get results
> 
> I've created a non-PC Qaeda  "ad"  suitable for Forbes or Fortune (large .jpg)
> 
> The first 10 callers get one ;-)
> 
> steve
> 
> 

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From measl at mfn.org  Mon Oct 15 02:13:53 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 04:13:53 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [EMED-L] Contagious vs Non-Contagious Biological Warfare
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 15 Oct 2001, Oboegal Janie wrote:

> Dear Willie,
> I look at it this way. The United States of America sends billions of dollars
> into the Middle East to keep the oil tap on "open." If I have a bad case of
> Ebola and don't feel well, then I probably won't fill up my tank in my new
> Honda CR-V...you know. Now...I suggest that someone over there has figured
> this out, and it may be the guy who turns the oil faucet from *on* to *off.*
> I really don't think this oil SOMMELIER is about to allow his crop to rot in
> the fields, ravaged by some foreign bacteria from Afganistan. We are talking
> BIG BUCKS, and I don't think the leadership of the Middle East will give it
> up for the "afterlife."
> 
> Janie
> Atlanta
> 
> To unsubscribe, send the command  "SIGNOFF EMED-L" to LISTSERV at ITSSRV1.UCSF.EDU

And this, my dear Janie, is one of the very attitudes that got us into
this mess in the first place.  Just because you are a socioeconomic flake
whose every waking moment is consumed by the passion of your "toys", does
not mean that the rest of the world follows in your twisted footsteps

For one, your comments above imply that the Afghani's actually *have
something to lose*.  I think you need to reexamine the premise.  Second,
you are assuming that your value systems can be reliably projected onto
other societies.  Bzzzt.  This type of societal narcissism is where the
current fad treatment with spoorozites originated...

Step back from all the jingoist rhetoric a little, and examine your
underlying issues.  Between you and "Dr." Willie, this list is a microcosm
of Amerikka - a last great bastion of hate and predjudice: certainly not
the kind of place people want the medical practitioners "hanging out".

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From piolenc at mozcom.com  Sun Oct 14 17:02:27 2001
From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 08:02:27 +0800
Subject: More on "new physics"
References: <95F357A4-C0CA-11D5-9467-0050E439C473@got.net> <3BC9E9AA.2060400@dragonsweb.org>
Message-ID: <3BCA2793.FB753728@mozcom.com>


"James B. DiGriz" wrote:

> Thought that's what you meant. Wasn't aware that he had developed any
> actual new physics. I do know he was desparate for funds at the end and
> might have fallen prey to some embellishment and license. That he was
> arguably ill-treated might factor into it, too. Too bad his papers were
> spirited away and classified so we can't judge for ourselves, though.
> Look what government paranoia has engendered in this case.

I deeply doubt the stories about his papers having been "classified."
More likely, as he died in obscurity, his unpublished work simply ended
up in a trash bin. There is no reverence for, nor any desire to preserve
the work of, some dead pauper who is not the media darling du jour.

Marc de Piolenc





From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Sun Oct 14 23:31:16 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 08:31:16 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: [BIOWAR]  anthrax preparedness - my thoughts (fwd)
Message-ID: 




-- Eugen* Leitl leitl
______________________________________________________________
ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204
57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 00:31:19 -0400
From: mnass at netquarters.net
Cc: biowar at topica.com
Subject: [BIOWAR]  anthrax preparedness - my thoughts


Response to two reported anthrax attacks suboptimal.  What can be
improved?

Coming up with more effective responses to the anthrax threat requires a
solid understanding of the unique characteristics of anthrax, how it is
like, and unlike other pathogens for which we have very effective
answers.
This is important both to save lives, but also to avoid panic.  People
are afraid when they do not know what to expect, and do not know how to
properly protect themselves.  The public and the doctors caring for them
have to be educated on anthrax asap.  These are my suggestions for
expediting the evaluation of anthrax "events" and the prophylactic
treatment of those exposed.
I do not wish to be alarmist, but now that the anthrax genie is out of
the bottle, we could be seeing a very large number of anthrax scares
ahead.   I have composed the following very quickly in hopes that it
will help us to be optimally prepared.
1.   It takes the inhalation of hundreds of thousands to millions of
spores of anthrax to cause the disease inhalation anthrax, with the
possible exception of people with immune deficiencies, for whom less
spores might lead to illness.  Fewer spores do not cause illness; the
immune system seems to readily defend against them.  This is presumably
why 5 others in Florida have now been found with anti-anthrax
antibodies, but were not ill.  In goat hair mills, where workers were
daily exposed to anthrax spores, some developed antibodies and some did
not.  (Our antibody (ELISA) tests may not detect all antibodies to
anthrax.)
2.   If there were enough spores inhaled in Florida to kill one worker,
then there must have been millions more in the office.  Other workers
would have therefore had spores on clothes, shoes, hair.  At this time,
I would suggest these items be washed (see comments on washing below) or
brushed out, outdoors.  There would have been spores on the desks,
floors, and in the indoor air.  Proper sampling of the environment
should have detected these spores, and should have provided an estimate
of the magnitude of the exposure.  This would have permitted an
extrapolation of the risk to individuals working in the office,
elsewhere in the building, and in the neighborhood of the building.  It
would have allowed appropriate antibiotic prescribing for those at risk,
who could have been observed carefully and received additional
investigations that would be appropriate to their risk.
3.      Instead, workers with only gloves on did some environmental
sampling
when the first case was diagnosed, and employees were allowed to remain
in the building for an additional week, where they would have received
further exposure to anthrax spores.  The environmental samples and nasal
swabs were all said to be negative, apart from one person and one
computer keyboard.  This is simply not possible.  Almost fifty years
ago, an electrician at Fort Detrick died after doing some work in a
building where anthrax research was conducted.  Samples taken then
(1950s) showed that the building was grossly contaminated, with anthrax
spores all over.  Why was the Florida sampling so much less sensitive
than the sampling that took place in the 1950s?  Why did it take
authorities a week to figure out that the other employees were also
exposed, and that the building was contaminated?
4.      At NBC New York, the FBI was notified of a suspicious letter on
September 25, but did not test it "until at least two weeks later, when
a private doctor city public health officials
" (Steinhauer J and Dwyer
J. FBI Did Not Test Letter to NBC or Immediately Notify City Hall. NY
Times October 13, 2001. Page A1.)  I'm guessing that the spate of hoaxes
has rapidly overwhelmed the FBI's ability to deal with each, and
overwhelmed their forensic lab's capability.  Hoaxes may also be a
strategy of a terrorist.  Remember how the anti-ballistic missile
program has been criticized for its inability to deal with thousands of
dummy missiles which could provide cover for a small number of "real"
missiles?  We may be seeing the same thing now.  There is one simple
answer:  the techniques for doing forensic investigation of suspect
materials need to be shared with state and local laboratories, so that
these efforts can be decentralized.  Then sufficient personnel can be
made available to do adequate testing.  It may be that of the billions
now allotted for terrorism, money should be spent training lab
technicians in these techniques, and in training more lab technicians,
since we do not know for how long US citizens will be at risk of
bioterrorism exposures.
5.      How do you test for anthrax, when a variety of tests are
available
with varying specificities and sensitivities?  Well, first of all, you
do not allow human beings to be the canaries in the mineshaft, which
happened in NYC.  Tests of environmental samples can be performed in
hours, not days, which is how long cultures take to identify an
organism.  Cultures are needed for antibiotic sensitivity testing, but
the diagnosis of exposure in cases of anthrax needs to be made more
quickly, in order to avoid loss of lives.
6.      The first test to be done should be extremely sensitive; it does
not
need to have extreme specificity.  The follow-on tests can be more
specific.  PCR testing fits this bill.  If PCR is positive, then
aggressive environmental samples, nasal swabs, sputum, blood,
cerebrospinal fluid in suspected meningitis cases can be obtained.  If a
massive exposure has occurred, case-finding is done to identify all
those potentially exposed.  All are treated with antibiotics prior to
any signs of illness.  I would propose consideration of bronchoalveolar
lavage in highly exposed patients.  This procedure has never been
reported in anthrax exposures, because there have been no reported
exposures since the technique came into clinical practice.  However, it
might be capable of removing large numbers of spores, and it might also
provide an estimate of the risk for the patient and others who had
similar levels of exposure, based on the amount of spores recovered from
the lungs.  We should learn whether this procedure is likely to be
helpful.
7.      Additional tests could be done as well.  One described in the
October
13 NY Times page B8 quoted Tom O'Brien of Tetracore, in Gaithersburg, MD
is an antigen test which is supplied to federal and local authorities,
and can be performed in 15 minutes.  Four groups described different
prototype anthrax identification systems for air and other environmental
samples at the 1998 international anthrax meeting in the UK.  Someone
needs to review all these devices and determine their sensitivity and
specificity for environmental samples, and make the most promising
devices available to local authorities for widespread air/environmental
sampling asap.  It may be that the US will have to live with biosensors
in public places, now that the anthrax genie is out of the bottle.  Not
a pleasing option, but one that might provide the lead time needed to
treat people during that important window: after exposure, but before
serious illness has developed.
8.      Treatment: not so simple as popping a cipro tablet twice a day.
First off, the risks involved in taking an antibiotic that you don't
need for a few days or weeks are really not that large.  However, if
everyone starts taking antibiotics in advance of any known exposures,
there will not be enough available in 6 or 12 months, and then the
terrorists can play havoc with us.  If it makes you feel more secure,
keep a week or two of any antibiotic on hand.  The Florida anthrax
strain was reported to be sensitive to just about every oral antibiotic,
including penicillins, tetracyclines and quinolones such as
ciprofloxiacin.  The problem is this: we do not know how long you will
need to take them, and we do not know if all the anthrax held by
terrorists will be antibiotic sensitive, as the Florida strain
apparently was.  Monkey experiments showed that the animals survived
lethal anthrax exposures when antibiotics were provided within 24 hours
following exposure, but that some died when antibiotics were stopped,
after a month or more.  So how long do you take them for?  Personally, I
would take them for at least six months, if that were the only treatment
I had.  I would only know which to take after antibiotic sensitivity
testing had been done.  I might start with doxycycline, since I am pen
allergic and it is inexpensive, and saved 9 out of 10 monkeys.  Cipro
saved 8 out of 10, if memory serves.  Given the small number of animals
tested, there is no difference in effectiveness between these two.
Neither drug is ideal for children or pregnant women, who should receive
a macrolide, penicillin or sulfa drug.  The environmental sampling, if
done properly, should alert you to your own level of exposure, and
therefore your risk.  If I inhaled 100 spores, I would not take
anything.  The data are that good on chronic occupational exposures in
contaminated environments, that I am assured I would not become ill.
9.      Methods for inactivating spores in the environment need to be
provided to the public.  On Scotland's Gruinard Island, contaminated
with anthrax for 45 years after experiments performed with anthrax
during World War Two, anthrax was killed after contaminated areas were
defoliated, and a dilute solution of formaldehyde in seawater was
sprayed on the land.  Bleach has also been used, but I do not know the
concentration needed or the amount of time required in which the
solution must be in contact with the spores.
10.     Detergents can increase the virulence of anthrax spores, and
thereby
decrease the number needed to cause disease.  It may be that the
addition of detergents at the Manchester NH goat hair mill where the US'
only epidemic of inhalation anthrax occurred (5 cases in 1957), was the
cause of the epidemic.  This increasing of spore virulence by detergent
was described in a paper by JM Barnes: "The development of anthrax
following the administration of spores by inhalation." British J
Experimental Pathology 1947, vol 28, pp385-94.  I would therefore not
wash contaminated clothes or surfaces with detergents, until we have
been informed exactly what to use and what not to use, by those who have
done the appropriate experiments at Fort Detrick Maryland or Porton Down
in the UK.
11.     What about masks?  What about envelopes?  What about opening
packages?  Obviously, if you are concerned, open things in such a way as
to prevent widespread dissemination of contents, like opening with
scissors instead of ripping.  Better yet, give it to the authorities.
Open things so that you are upwind of them.  Don't inhale while opening,
if you feel you need to go to these lengths.  Besides gas masks, there
are other medical masks which are cheap and easy and might be helpful.
Again, we need the information from authorities who have tested the
masks to learn exactly what types of protection they provide.  Do they
keep out 98% of particulates of the one to five micron size?  If so,
that would be a good mask for opening letters that might contain anthrax
spores, if you work in the media or a mailroom/post office.
12.     New treatment methodologies need to be put into place asap.
Antiserum needs to be produced in the US now, as a potentially
life-saving treatment for late-diagnosed cases.  Existing stocks should
be sought from China and possibly Russia. (See the October 14, 2001
Chicago Tribune: US Speeds Vaccine Creation, Research by Peter Gorner.)
Monoclonal antibodies, which are actively being researched, need to be
made available for experimental use, in the event they are needed for
life-threatening cases of anthrax. (See the October 12, 2001 Reuters
article: University of Texas Team Works on Anthrax Treatment.)

Bottom Line:
1.      Environmental sampling needs to be made more accurate, using
known
techniques, and more widespread.  Forensic testing of samples needs to
be decentralized, so it can be done in a timely manner, and so the
federal authorities are not overwhelmed.  The federal government should
pay the salaries of additional technicians in every state and possibly
in large hospitals, who would be trained as forensic experts, and
provide the materials and methodologies used by our federal experts at
Fort Detrick, CDC and the FBI, among others.
2.      Methods which go from most highly sensitive to most highly
specific
need to be used, in the proper order, so potential anthrax cases can be
identified and treated in a timely manner.  This means that existing
tests that take hours, not days, need to be the primary ones used.
3.      All questionable materials must be tested using sensitive
techniques.  We do not yet know how to select those which can be
ignored.
4.      The public needs to be reassured that in fact, the government
will
address these incidents promptly and effectively, so that the public is
not responsible for its own antibiotics and treatment strategies.
5.      Biosensors in development need to be assessed now, and the best
ones
need to be put into mass production.
6.      Pharmaceutical companies should increase production of a variety
of
antibiotics, and government stockpiles of these materials should
increase.
7.      Novel approaches to treatment should be investigated and
prepared or
obtained in advance. This might include antiserum, monoclonal
antibodies, and other materials currently being developed.  The utility
of bronchoalveolar lavage in monkeys should be investigated.  The
sensitivity of nasal swab testing, sputum, urine and blood antigen
tests, stains and cultures should be assessed in animal models
immediately.
8.      Information on safe methods for inactivating spores found in or
on
contaminated clothes, surfaces and other environmental materials should
be provided to the public immediately.
9.      Information on cheap masks, like those worn by lab techs working
under hoods, that have high efficacy for anthrax, should be provided to
the public.  Production should be increased.

Meryl Nass, MD

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From oa at acm.org  Mon Oct 15 08:35:52 2001
From: oa at acm.org (Optimizzin Al-gorithm)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 08:35:52 -0700
Subject: Roadblocks to Find Unlicensed Drivers LEGAL
Message-ID: <3BCB0258.418F09EF@acm.org>


http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAH7TBEUSC.html

WASHINGTON (AP) - Ohio drivers lost a Supreme Court appeal Monday that
asked whether police roadblocks to check for unlicensed drivers violated
the Constitution's guarantee against unreasonable searches or stops.

The court, without comment, declined to hear the case of two Dayton men
cited for driving without licenses in 1998.

"We're pleased with the decision," said Dayton city prosecutor Deirdre
Logan. "These types of checkpoints don't violate the Constitution. We
intend to do more checkpoints."

Police generally need a court warrant or a reason to suspect someone of
a crime before detaining them for several minutes. But in past rulings,
the nation's highest court allowed police to set up sobriety checkpoints
aimed at randomly detecting drunken drivers and border roadblocks to
intercept illegal immigrants.

In both instances the court found that benefits to public safety and
order outweighed the inconvenience and loss of privacy suffered by
motorists.

Last year, the court invalidated random checkpoints intended to catch
drug criminals.

Law enforcement in and of itself is not a good enough reason to stop
innocent motorists, the 6-3 majority concluded in that case, called
Indianapolis v. Edmond.

The court has not ruled squarely on the question of whether catching
license violations is reason enough to erect a roadblock. Licenses are
checked at sobriety checkpoints, but catching drunks is the main aim.

In the Dayton case, Magus D. Orr and Andre L. Smith were ticketed in
June 1998, when police ran several checkpoints throughout the city. The
men claim the stops were unconstitutional because police had no
particular reason to suspect one motorist over another.

"The idea that government agents may seize people at checkpoints without
having any suspicion of wrongdoing it very un-American," lawyers for the
two men wrote in asking the Supreme Court to hear the appeal.

Dayton police stopped cars according to a prearranged pattern - say
every 10th car or every fourth - and a sign posted 100 yards away warned
drivers they might be stopped.

Police asked for a license, and if the driver had none the officer ran a
computer check. For most people, the stop lasted no more than two
minutes, police said.

The city argued that roadblocks improved public safety by catching
drivers who are more likely to pose a danger, and who would not be
immediately recognizable to police any other way.

"Checkpoints allow detection of unlicensed or unqualified drivers before
some intervening event, such as when an accident or injury to the public
occurs," lawyers for the city wrote in urging the Supreme Court not to
review the men's appeal.

Approximately one in eight drivers in Dayton had no valid license, and
about 30 percent of traffic citations issued in the city were for
license violations, the city claimed.

The Ohio Supreme Court unanimously upheld the roadblocks in May.

The case is Orr v. Ohio, 01-253.




From oa at acm.org  Mon Oct 15 08:37:28 2001
From: oa at acm.org (Optimizzin Al-gorithm)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 08:37:28 -0700
Subject: Hilary rushes checkpoint, injures cop
Message-ID: <3BCB02B8.BCC9F596@acm.org>


                            Clinton OK after airport incident

                            (10/14/01) YONKERS - A bizarre accident at
                            Westchester County Airport involved Senator
Hillary
                            Clinton's entourage Sunday.

                            Sources tell News 12 Westchester that a
vehicle in
                            Senator Clinton's security team tried to
bypass a
                            mandatory check point at the airport, which
has been
                            under a heightened state of alert since the
terrorist
                            attacks. A county police officer attempting
to stop the
                            vehicle from getting through injured his
shoulder. That
                            officer was taken to Saint Agnes Hospital in
White
                            Plains, and his condition is not known.

                            Senator Clinton, who turned 54 Sunday, was
en route to
                            board a private jet to an unreleased
destination. The
                            former first lady could not be reached for
comment.




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From: friendz at openxxx.net (friendz at openxxx.net)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 08:54:31 -0400
Subject: Hello, your friend recommended openxxx.net to you
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From nobody at remailer.privacy.at  Sun Oct 14 23:55:05 2001
From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 08:55:05 +0200
Subject: You Can Have Your Rights Back When We're Done
Message-ID: 


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A59466-2001Oct14.html




From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Mon Oct 15 00:01:54 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 09:01:54 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: stupid anthrax q: would microwaving your snail mail help?
In-Reply-To: <3BC9F164.4BE4C9EE@sunder.net>
Message-ID: 


On Sun, 14 Oct 2001, sunder wrote:

> Would it help to microwave your mail if you don't know where it came
> from and you're sure it doesn't contain an objects?  i.e. it's not a
> CD you've ordered from Amazon. :)

No. You could bake for ~2 h at 140 C though (adding warmup time depending
on volume). Or, autoclave it (2 h 120-130C).

> Do anthrax spores get cooked enough by microwaves to be killed, or are
> they too dry in spore form to be nuked?

They're too small, too dry, and the microwave is illuminated very
inhomogenously due to standing waves in the resonator.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Oct 15 07:13:54 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 09:13:54 -0500
Subject: PRL Article Suggests Quantum Fingerprinting Of Data
Message-ID: <3BCAEF22.748F44C1@ssz.com>


http://unisci.com/stories/20014/1015016.htm
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From adam at homeport.org  Mon Oct 15 06:42:49 2001
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 09:42:49 -0400
Subject: Biometrics/Letter to the Economist
Message-ID: <20011015094248.A5772@weathership.homeport.org>


October 6th, letters section:

> SIR - Those about to invest in iris-scanning security technology
> will be disappointed to learn of recent developments in the
> treatment of glaucoma ("Watching you ", September
> 22nd). Prostaglandin analogues are rapidly gaining popularity in the
> treatment of this blinding eye condition that affects 1% of the
> population. An innocuous side-effect of this drug is to cause a
> change in both iris colour (a darkening) and morphology. This change
> in susceptible people, usually Europeans, occurs over one to two
> years. Apart from rendering iris scanning potentially useless for
> these people, unscrupulous types without glaucoma may be tempted to
> use the drugs to "change" identity.
>
> Simon Longstaff
> Consultant ophthalmic surgeon
> Sheffield, South Yorkshire

http://www.economist.com/printedition/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=806111&CFID=911494&CFTOKEN=96768925&&


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume





From P at bid4Placement.com  Mon Oct 15 10:05:15 2001
From: P at bid4Placement.com (P at bid4Placement.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 10:05:15
Subject: Your Bid 4 Placement Account        
Message-ID: 

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From ericm at lne.com  Mon Oct 15 10:24:28 2001
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 10:24:28 -0700
Subject: RIAA wants to be able to hack "online pirates"
Message-ID: <20011015102428.A15424@slack.lne.com>


http://news.lycos.com/news/story.asp?section=LycosBreaking&storyID=47552&from=lycoshp

RIAA thinks that it's legal for them to hack people
to disable "copyright pirates", but worries that the anti-hacking
provisions in the "USA" act would make it illegal.



Eric




From citizenq at hushmail.com  Mon Oct 15 10:50:35 2001
From: citizenq at hushmail.com (citizenq at hushmail.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 10:50:35 -0700
Subject: Schneier on Stego, Dead Drops, bin Laden
Message-ID: <200110151750.f9FHoZZ78532@mailserver1.hushmail.com>


Schneier did the World a great favor by helping popularize awareness of crypto.  Now he should just shut up, along with Larry Ellison and Scott McNealy.  Go back to work.



>
>Schneier has never really cared much for
>steganography and he seems to take every
>opportunity to belittle it. In _Secrets and Lies_,
>he argues that he's never received images in email
>and so steganography will fail for lack of a
>channel.
>
>In any case, there are plenty of business uses of
>whatever might be called steganography. The term
>itself is difficult to pin down because it could
>include many things that people do without
>realizing that they're engaged in steganography.




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Mon Oct 15 08:10:16 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 11:10:16 -0400
Subject: How not to be seen (Re:  RIAA Safeweb Proxy ID)
Message-ID: 


> Morlock Elloi[SMTP:morlockelloi at yahoo.com] wrote:
> 
> 
> > This is totally off-topic, but consider this: the way that a Proxy 
> > cache works (not just Squid, any cache) is that it stores all of the 
> > requested objects (web pages and files, in this case) on a series of 
> > local servers. Then, when a user requests them, it serves them off of 
> 
> It boggles one's mind - the idea that data will _not_ be collected just
> because
> someone says so. Using any concentration point to "anonymize" http access
> is
> like frequenting the facility marked "SAFE PLACE FOR DRUG DEALING" in huge
> red
> letters to cater for one's need for untaxed molecules.
> 
> At best it can shield from naive end users - unless they get pissed like
> JYA.
> 
The implied asumption above, of course, is that Safeweb narcs to their
investor, the
CIA, and so on to the US Government.

Actually, depending on your threat model, Safeweb can provide a very useful
service.

One of the things a Safeweb proxy does is SSL all your traffic between your
browser
and Safeweb. Even URLs are encrypted. The upshot of this is that if your
worry is not
a TLA, but rather, a snoopy employer watching the firewall to see who visits

monster.com, safeweb provides a good shield. If you're asked why you use it,
you 
can point out that it allows you to research competitors without tipping
them off. 

[For those curious, I've just survived the current round of layoffs at RSA.
I'm curious
as to whether other RSA employees on the list have (you know who you are).

Peter Trei




From auto301094 at hushmail.com  Mon Oct 15 11:35:41 2001
From: auto301094 at hushmail.com (auto301094 at hushmail.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 11:35:41 -0700
Subject: Ordnance 101: "Bunker Bombs Created In N.Y."
Message-ID: <200110151835.f9FIZfn87664@mailserver1.hushmail.com>

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From pcw2 at flyzone.com  Mon Oct 15 09:07:12 2001
From: pcw2 at flyzone.com (Peter Wayner)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 12:07:12 -0400
Subject: Schneier on Stego, Dead Drops, bin Laden
In-Reply-To: <20011015161449.A6931338@exeter.ac.uk>
References: <3BB0B40D.B68E29D9@black.org>
  <20011015161449.A6931338@exeter.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <200110151607.f9FG7Jf14953@slack.lne.com>


Schneier has never really cared much for
steganography and he seems to take every
opportunity to belittle it. In _Secrets and Lies_,
he argues that he's never received images in email
and so steganography will fail for lack of a
channel.

In any case, there are plenty of business uses of
whatever might be called steganography. The term
itself is difficult to pin down because it could
include many things that people do without
realizing that they're engaged in steganography.

Microsoft Office tags documents with the serial
number of the document creator. The creator and
everyone else who sees the document will never see
this number, but it's there. I think the serial
number is there to help them track down piracy and
copyright infringement.

The content creation companies from the music and
movie business are also big believers in
steganography. They hope the tool will allow them
to mix in copyright messages into digital copies.

The U.S. government has long explored ways to tag
documents, presumably to help track classified
information that might fall into the hands of
terrorists.

U.S. government agents in pursuit of terrorists
must often use steganography to communicate with
other agents. Hiding the message stream may be
the only way they can maintain their cover.

Lately the press has been focusing on the unproven
possibility that the terrorists may use steganography
to communicate. The complete story should include
how the technology is used against terrorism and digital
piracy.




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Mon Oct 15 09:08:56 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 12:08:56 -0400
Subject: Hilary rushes checkpoint, injures cop
References: <3BCB02B8.BCC9F596@acm.org>
Message-ID: <3BCB0A18.B19FA877@acmenet.net>


Optimizzin Al-gorithm wrote:
> 
> (10/14/01) YONKERS - A bizarre accident at
> Westchester County Airport involved Senator
> Hillary
> Clinton's entourage Sunday.
> 
> Sources tell News 12 Westchester that a
> vehicle in
> Senator Clinton's security team tried to
> bypass a
> mandatory check point at the airport, which
> has been
> under a heightened state of alert since the
> terrorist
> attacks.

How dare they try to stop an important person such as her? Checkpoints
are for the little people!


As for the headline, "Clinton OK After Airport Accident", truly, her
health was not the first thing on my mind. Nor would I have called it an
accident. I would call it Aggravated Assault upon a Police Office or
Peace Officer (NY Penal Code 120.11). But of course that's for the
little people.

-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Mon Oct 15 12:16:09 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 12:16:09 -0700
Subject: A REALLY DIFFERENT terrorist threat view.
Message-ID: <3BCB35F9.8CC8AC3F@lsil.com>


I understood the part about vacuum engines, I have one at home. I love
the healing wave gizmo - what's their ticker symbol?

ROTFL! 

Mike

>--begin excerpt--
>  Specifically, they have very little knowledge of the capabilities of
>higher symmetry electrodynamics, since they almost ubiquitously use
>standard electrical engineers and engineering for analysis.  The problem
>is that this standard type of analyst -- however capable in the orthodox
>sense --  is totally incapable of even recognizing the indicators
>pointing to a higher symmetry EM weapon or weapon test.
>..... We also missed the fact that this internal LW EM dynamics
>constitutes an infolded set of spacetime curvatures and their
>dynamics -- spacetime curvature engines, e.g., or "vacuum engines" in
>particle physics terms, or just "engines" for short.
>...
>  Not a single university in the United States even teaches what
>actually powers an electrical circuit, even though that has been in
>physics for more than 40 years,
>....You will see a total failure to attack the energy crisis right where
>it begins: by what actually powers the circuit.  You will see no
>acceptance of cold fusion, now demonstrated in more than 600 successful
>experiments worldwide, in several nations and many laboratories, by
>perhaps 200 scientists from those countries, labs, or independently. 
>For the electric circuit, any dipolarity, being opposite charges, a
>priori extracts EM energy from the vacuum in unusable form ( the input
>must be from the time-domain; it is easily demonstrated experimentally
>that no observable EM energy is input in 3-space), transduces it into
>usable form, and pours it out in all directions. 
>
>....Consequently, billions of dollars are being spent in energy research
>on everything except the real problem: how to master and correctly use
>the broken symmetry of the ubiquitous dipole.
>
>..... we had to turn to a friendly foreign country, to its National
>Materials Science Laboratory (which is part of its National Academy of
>Sciences), to find scientists already well-versed in higher symmetry
>electrodynamics and its use, willing to perform the final year of
>research needed to develop the unit for the commercial market and full
>production. That is now ongoing.
>
>.....Yet astounding breakthroughs -- including for the good of all human
>beings on this planet -- readily come from such work, in energy,
>healing, propulsion, you name it.  The mastery of the "inner infolded
>electromagnetics" inside all the normal EM potentials, fields and waves
>is actually a unified field theory, but one directly engineerable on the
>lab bench. 
>.....to show that a small, portable higher group symmetry electrodynamic
>medical treatment device can be rapidly developed in a crash program of
>from $60-100 million.  The device could treat (radiate in very special
>fashion) a casualty in about 2 minutes flat, and another, and another,
>etc. community, not to mention the scientific community
>
>--end excerpt--




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Mon Oct 15 09:24:28 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 12:24:28 -0400
Subject: You Can Have Your Rights Back When We're Done
References: 
Message-ID: <3BCB0DBC.3A50D08B@acmenet.net>


Anonymous wrote:
> 
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A59466-2001Oct14.html

(People with Arabic-sounding names being detained with little or no
court supervision)


Can you think of any better way to push people into hating the US? What
if the IRA were suspected of committing a terrorist act in the US? Would
people with Irish-sounding names be locked up in max cells with no
access to lawyers on the _chance_ that they might know something?

I normally attribute acts like this to incompetence rather than malice,
but this is really pushing it. Could someone be ensuring there'd always
be a supply of terrorists in the US to cause a continuing crisis?

-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From auto301094 at hushmail.com  Mon Oct 15 12:31:17 2001
From: auto301094 at hushmail.com (auto301094 at hushmail.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 12:31:17 -0700
Subject: "Critical Infrastructures Will Remain Vulnerable; Neighborhoods
  Must Fend For Themselves"
Message-ID: <200110151931.f9FJVH772089@mailserver1.hushmail.com>

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From hakkin at sarin.com  Mon Oct 15 13:45:00 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 13:45:00 -0700
Subject: NSA overhears...
Message-ID: <3BCB4ACC.53978D85@sarin.com>


Hersh also reports that a number of conversations between members of the
Saudi Arabian royal family that
were electronically intercepted by the National Security Agency,
beginning as early as 1994, "demonstrated
to analysts that by 1996 Saudi money was supporting Osama bin Laden's Al
Qaeda and other extremist groups."
http://www.drudgereport.com/flash7.htm




From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Oct 15 13:52:00 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 13:52:00 -0700
Subject: RIAA wants to be able to hack "online pirates"
In-Reply-To: <20011015102428.A15424@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <200110151758.NAA07506@hall.mail.mindspring.net>


Declan's most provocative report confirms a point made
on October 8 by the leaker of the alleged RIAA secret 
meeting, which was not reported by The Register:

Quote: 

One particularly disturbing fact is that Codex Data System's 
DIRT software is supposed to be restricted to law enforcement 
agencies, yet the RIAA, MPAA, and IFPI have all purchased it, 
and use it routinely to monitor servers which are suspected of 
infringing content, yet are password protected such as servers 
which require one to sign up for a password account like 
hotline servers that have no guest download.

Unquote

Erci Murray wrote:

>http://news.lycos.com/news/story.asp?section=LycosBreakingstoryID=47552&fro
m=lycoshp
>
>RIAA thinks that it's legal for them to hack people
>to disable "copyright pirates", but worries that the anti-hacking
>provisions in the "USA" act would make it illegal.




From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Oct 14 21:03:29 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 14:03:29 +1000
Subject: Got beef? evil disease for an evil empire
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011015135134.00a59eb0@pop.useoz.com>


Optimizzin Al-gorithm
wrote                        "Old news"
Not  if you get out more. Someone called proffr regularly writes to 
Independant media re,Columbia spraying
as a direct threat of a runaway greenhouse.Has threatened monsanto 
employees with AP.
And suggested release of foot in mouth many moons ago on Indymedia.
Seems currently obsessed with leading the FIB astray with false leads and 
scare stories.(psy-war)
proffr is probably a victorian police provocator,probably. Opjizm can get 
all their news here...lazy #@$%




From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Oct 15 14:05:25 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 14:05:25 -0700
Subject: Schneier on Stego, Dead Drops, bin Laden
In-Reply-To: <200110151750.f9FHoZZ78532@mailserver1.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: <200110151811.OAA21010@hall.mail.mindspring.net>


Bruce is indeed commendable for his crypto advocacy,
though he's backed off from that in recent years now
claiming  dependable security is possible only by the 
service he sells.

In his latest Crypto-Gram he applauds Bush, says
the US has got to learn to live with terrorism, that
there is no way to prevent it, just learn to be cautious
and careful of ever changing threats, and follow the
leadership of those who know what's what, again the 
way he talks about wise and realistic computer security.

Unfortunately for Bruce's once sterling reputation he
sounds more and more like a scare mongerer strictly
pumping up the protection racket.

Indeed, his promo for his firm now clouds his opinions,
although he may be suffering coercion of his investors,
call that economic terrorism, though Bruce cautions
the word is terribly overused for trivial annoyances
like those of investors hounding you to meet expectations.

What can you do with a mature professional no longer
free to do what he likes, pressured to beat the upstarts
and gray hairs, why make him a prestigous spokesperson 
for an industy, recycle his outpouring of advice. 

Don't get me wrong, this is not about Whit Diffie.




From freematt at coil.com  Mon Oct 15 11:17:55 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 14:17:55 -0400
Subject: 5 Reasons the Pro-freedom Movement Is in Trouble
Message-ID: 


At 1:09 PM -0400 10/15/01, Gail Lightfoot  wrote:
>Dear Matt,
>
>   No matter how reasonable an individuals philosophy of living
>  may be, they will still succumb to emotionalism from time to time.

And succumb they do.

We now have these examples of alleged freedom advocates making the 
following non-freedom remarks.

1.) Reason Magazine Contributing Editor Cathy Young advocating 
banning encryption stating that: "Do I like the idea of people being 
able to encrypt electronic communications so that they are beyond 
surveillance? Frankly, I found it scary even before Sept. 11 - 
precisely because of the threat of terrorism. It is said that there 
are no atheists in foxholes; perhaps there are no true libertarians 
in times of terrorist attacks.  Even in the Declaration of 
Independence, the right to liberty is preceded by the right to life." 


2.) Ivan Eland , Director of Defense Policy Studies, 
Cato Institute writes in favor of victim disarmament "The ban against 
sharp metal objects (i.e., knives) aboard aircraft is a good one." 
See: 

3.) The Objectivist Center's James Robbins's support of a national 
ID-  Robbins' writes: "...however, the recent assault on America has 
had a significant clarifying effect. Since last Tuesday, some of my 
"go to the wall" libertarian views, such as opposing a national ID 
card, have seemed trivial. The potential for government abuse is 
present, but the need for providing security is actual. So long as 
there are adequate checks and balances, so long as the enabling 
legislation is circumscribed and directed, the measures currently 
being touted seem a reasonable cost." See: 


4.) Various Libertarian Party spokespersons notably in Ohio and 
Florida making statements such as:  " "We're normally very wary about 
anything that could mean more authority to the federal government and 
limited individual liberties," said Ralph Swanson, an administrator 
for the Florida Libertarian Party. "But I think you'll find, after 
all this, something has to be done to keep people safe." 
.  And Ohio's LP director stating that: "I personally have no 
problem with airlines preventing passengers to carry weapons..." And 
she went on to say "Airport searches aren't 4th amendment 
violations."  >.

5.)  The Libertarian Party of Virginia candidate for Governor William 
Redpath is publicly calling for the elimination of private gun sales 
as he wants all private gun sales routed via a government licensed 
dealer so a FBI background check can be done.  Currently in Virginia 
if you wanted to give or sell your neighbor a gun you can do so 
without governmental involvement. See 
.

I'd like to view the liberty goblet as half full rather than half 
empty but with freedom advocates like these who needs enemies?

Regards,  Matt-











At 1:09 PM -0400 10/15/01, GkLtft at aol.com wrote:
>From: GkLtft at aol.com
>Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 13:09:20 EDT
>Subject: Re: What's Wrong With Objectivism?
>To: freematt at coil.com
>
>Dear Matt,
>
>   No matter how reasonable an individuals philosophy of living
>  may be, they will still succumb to emotionalism from time to time.
>
>   For instance, Libertarians (many of whom - like me - consider
>  themselves to be Objectivists) oppose the use of force for
>  political ends, yet we may recognize the need to use force to
>  append individuals who advocate the use of such force. In fact,
>  a Libertarian government has the sole responsibility to use force
>  against those who would use force for their own gain.
>
>   In the face of the horrific events of Sept 11, 2001, it is not really
>  very surprising to hear normally rational people speak out with
>  emotion instead of reason. The key is will they give up their reason
>  for emotion over time. Check back with the individual as time passes
>  and see what they say then.
>
>   I am somewhat encouraged to note it was not David Kelley who wrote
>  words of encouragement to those who think an ID card is an effective
>  way to stem any illegal activity. If such a card could, the wisest move
>  would be to give them to criminals not the rest of us. Maybe a tattoo
>  on the forehead. :)
>
>   Perhaps some satire and silly ideas on the subject of ID cards will
>  bring Robbins to his senses.
>
>Liberty,
>gail lightfoot
>California Libertarian


**************************************************************************
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From rsw at MIT.EDU  Mon Oct 15 11:53:50 2001
From: rsw at MIT.EDU (Riad S. Wahby)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 14:53:50 -0400
Subject: John Young Interpretation Society
In-Reply-To: <3BCA5D19.E07E6457@acm.org>; from oa@acm.org on Sun, Oct
  14, 2001 at 08:50:49PM -0700
References: <3BCA5D19.E07E6457@acm.org>
Message-ID: <20011015145350.C11364@positron.mit.edu>


Optimizzin Al-gorithm  wrote:
> 1. John Henry --look it up, american folklore/song about man vs.
> machine,
> John H. lost to a railroad-nail driving machine.  An industrial Kasparov
> vs. IBM.

Actually, he won (and it was against a steam drill, not a nailer).  He
just died from the exertion.

  "And they told the results to captain Tommy. Captain Tommy said,
  'I'll be, mmm mmm mmm. Listen here folks. John Henry and the
  machine. The machine made eleven feet, four inches, the men
  shoulder's sagged. John Henry made fourteen feet, seven inches. The
  men whooped and hollered and Captain Tommy went over to congratulate
  John Henry. But John Henry didn't see his outstretched hand. John
  Henry fell over in the dust. John Henry had hammered on the
  mountain, and his hammer was strike and fire but he drove so hard
  that he broke his poor heart, that he laid down his hammer and he
  died."

--
Riad Wahby
rsw at mit.edu
MIT VI-2/A 2002




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Mon Oct 15 12:55:35 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 14:55:35 -0500
Subject: Slashdot | First Steganographic Image Found In The Wild
Message-ID: <3BCB3F37.C27C3605@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/10/15/1727249.shtml
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From office at tangfeng.org  Mon Oct 15 00:04:30 2001
From: office at tangfeng.org (office at tangfeng.org)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 15:04:30 +0800
Subject: Beijing Tangfeng Culture Exchange Centre
Message-ID: <200110150704.AAA21296@toad.com>

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From office at tangfeng.org  Mon Oct 15 00:04:43 2001
From: office at tangfeng.org (office at tangfeng.org)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 15:04:43 +0800
Subject: Beijing Tangfeng Culture Exchange Centre
Message-ID: <200110150708.CAA15683@einstein.ssz.com>

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From gbroiles at well.com  Mon Oct 15 15:24:01 2001
From: gbroiles at well.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 15:24:01 -0700
Subject: [OT] Anthrax protocol issued.
In-Reply-To: <20011016000117.A28107@rbg.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <20011014165545.D7020@navel.introspect>
  
  <20011014165545.D7020@navel.introspect>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011015150949.03aa8e10@bivens.parrhesia.com>


At 12:01 AM 10/16/2001 +0200, Ralf-P. Weinmann wrote:
>On Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 04:55:45PM -0700, Karsten M. Self wrote:
> > >     - CDC currently does NOT recommend the use of nasal swab specimens
> > >       as part of evaluating anthrax threats/implied threats or
> > >       evaluating concerned citizens who think they may have been exposed
> > >       to anthrax.
>
>Does anyone know why the CDC does not recommend using nasal swab specimens
>for testing ? Is that because you can only reliably detect inhalational
>anthrax that way or is there any other reason ?

Well, I don't know what's the CDC's concerns are, but nasal swabs seem 
likely to answer one question - "does this person presently have anthrax 
spores inside their nasal passage?" which is different in several important 
ways from other questions of interest, including -

Has this person been exposed to anthrax bacteria or spores in the last 60 - 
90 days?
Has this person's immune system created antibodies to the anthrax bacteria?
Have this person's lymph nodes become infected? Are toxins being produced?

Some people may have anthrax spores in their nose but no infection (perhaps 
they were exposed to far fewer than the 5-10000 spores needed for 
inhalational anthrax) and some people may have an infection but no spores 
in their nose (because they have cutaneous anthrax, or because they blew 
their nose a lot, or because they're frequent users of powderered inhaled 
drugs like cocaine or amphetamine and don't have hair inside their noses).

So - if the purpose of the test is to determine which people need medical 
treatment - the test is likely to be misleading, sometimes optimistically, 
sometimes pessimistically.


--
Greg Broiles
gbroiles at well.com
"We have found and closed the thing you watch us with." -- New Delhi street kids




From andre.goldenstein at aral.net  Mon Oct 15 08:58:08 2001
From: andre.goldenstein at aral.net (andre.goldenstein at aral.net)
Date: 15 Oct 2001 15:58:08 UT
Subject: Newsletter 15.10.01
Message-ID: <0000C221.3BCB23AD@smtp.aral.net>



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From adam at cypherspace.org  Mon Oct 15 08:14:49 2001
From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 16:14:49 +0100
Subject: Schneier on Stego, Dead Drops, bin Laden
In-Reply-To: <3BB0B40D.B68E29D9@black.org>; from bob@black.org on Tue,
  Sep 25, 2001 at 09:42:53AM -0700
References: <3BB0B40D.B68E29D9@black.org>
Message-ID: <20011015161449.A6931338@exeter.ac.uk>


Bruce writes about uses of steganography as digital dead drops.

But he also claims that there are no business uses for steganography.
I don't think this claim is valid.

There are business scenarios where traffic analysis can leak
information about potential mergers, investment analysis activity and
so on.

Steganography is just a valid mechanism to hide traffic as cover
traffic.  Stego in fact offers marginally higher security against
traffic analysis because it will not be evident that the two parties
exchanged information, nor even had the opportunity to.  The
opportunity to have communicated would be evident if they were using
just cover traffic.

Apart from business uses there are uses for civil rights workers, and
generally members of the public who choose to retain association
privacy.

I don't think we should be giving the press and government ammunition
in their arguments to ban various forms of crypto, especially for
forms of communication which may help civil rights workers, and which
infringe on the tools available to the individual to partially regain
his privacy be that confidentiality or of association.

Adam

On Tue, Sep 25, 2001 at 09:42:53AM -0700, Subcommander Bob wrote:
> Monday September 24 01:15 PM EDT
> 
>         Terrorists and steganography
>         By Bruce Schneier, Special to ZDNet
>
>         Why can't businesses use this? The primary reason is that
> legitimate businesses don't need dead drops. I remember one company
> talk about a corporation embedding a steganographic message to its
> salespeople in a photo on the corporate Web page.  Why not just send
> an encrypted e-mail? Because someone might notice the e-mail and
> know that the salespeople all got an encrypted message. So send a
> message every day: a real message when you need to, and a dummy
> message otherwise. This is a traffic analysis problem, and there are
> other techniques to solve it. Steganography just doesn't apply here.




From tcmay at got.net  Mon Oct 15 16:22:51 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 16:22:51 -0700
Subject: [OT] Anthrax protocol issued.
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011015150949.03aa8e10@bivens.parrhesia.com>
Message-ID: <8D598826-C1C3-11D5-9C6B-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Monday, October 15, 2001, at 03:24 PM, Greg Broiles wrote:

> Some people may have anthrax spores in their nose but no infection 
> (perhaps they were exposed to far fewer than the 5-10000 spores needed 
> for inhalational anthrax) and some people may have an infection but no 
> spores in their nose (because they have cutaneous anthrax, or because 
> they blew their nose a lot, or because they're frequent users of 
> powderered inhaled drugs like cocaine or amphetamine and don't have 
> hair inside their noses).

Are you claiming that the reason the media have been hit by these 
anthrax attacks is because most of them are coke whores?

I draw the line on the mirror at that.

**SNORT!**


--Tim May
"Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and
strangled with her panty hose,  is somehow morally superior to a woman 
explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound"




From maxinux at bigfoot.com  Mon Oct 15 16:34:21 2001
From: maxinux at bigfoot.com (Max Inux)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 16:34:21 -0700
Subject: Slashdot | First Steganographic Image Found In The Wild NOT
In-Reply-To: 
References:  
Message-ID: <20011015163420.A27051@spheno.jokeslayer.com>


> Somebody has a bee up their butt today...
> 
> The commentary was WHY I posted it.

Make this clear next time you post something that vague eh?, and a sig shorter than your post would be appreciated too

-Max




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Mon Oct 15 14:35:55 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 16:35:55 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Slashdot | First Steganographic Image Found In The Wild NOT
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 15 Oct 2001, Trei, Peter wrote:

> Jim:
> 
> Read the goddamn article before posting. This is just a regurgitation of the
> Goldman/Provos/ABC article in which they faked up a stego'd
> picture for a newscast.
> 
> It is NOT an example of 'stego in the wild', and if you'd bothered to read
> the comment stream on the slashdot article, you'd know that.
> 
> You're wasting peoples time with false and misleading info, and
> show yourself to be a fool.
> 
> But when since was that unusual?

Somebody has a bee up their butt today...

The commentary was WHY I posted it.

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From honig at sprynet.com  Mon Oct 15 16:45:07 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 16:45:07 -0700
Subject: John Young Interpretation Society
In-Reply-To: <20011015145350.C11364@positron.mit.edu>
References: <3BCA5D19.E07E6457@acm.org> <3BCA5D19.E07E6457@acm.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011015164507.00b55680@pop.sprynet.com>


At 02:53 PM 10/15/01 -0400, Riad S. Wahby wrote:
>Optimizzin Al-gorithm  wrote:
>> 1. John Henry --look it up, american folklore/song about man vs.
>
>Actually, he won (and it was against a steam drill, not a nailer).  He
>just died from the exertion.

I'd say dying counts as losing.  




From saeq at gmx.net  Mon Oct 15 16:46:06 2001
From: saeq at gmx.net (Luthor Blisset)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 16:46:06 -0700
Subject: Who represents the detained? Nobody...
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011015163407.00a7bdf0@pop.gmx.net>


         I think Karsten first asked that question. Well:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/nation/specials/attacked/A59466-2001Oct14.html 

http://www.msnbc.com/news/642989.asp

"In a high-security wing of Manhattan's Metropolitan Correctional Center, 
an unknown number of men with Middle Eastern names are being held in 
solitary confinement on the ninth floor, locked in 8- by 10-foot cells with 
little more than cots, thin blankets and, if they request it, copies of the 
Koran. Every two hours, guards roust them to conduct a head count. They 
have no contact with each other or their families and limited access to 
their lawyers. Their names appear on no federal jail log available to the 
public. No records can be found in any court docket in New York showing why 
they are detained, who represents them or the status of their cases."

         The ghost of Due Process hovers above the funeral pyre where her 
entire sisterhood burned, drifting between the wafting billows of rancid 
smoke, and I ask myself: What is to be done?

--- Luthor //Remembering is copying and copying is THEFT




From honig at sprynet.com  Mon Oct 15 16:47:47 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 16:47:47 -0700
Subject: Scarfo "keylogger", PGP
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011015164747.00b588b0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 07:16 PM 10/15/01 +0100, Peter Fairbrother wrote:
>The other and more worrying "component" picked up the PGP key Scarfo used -
>his father's prison number! - and virtually nothing else. It didn't capture
	
Maybe the KLS is just disinfo, designed to take attention from the
fact that a Very Interesting Target picked such a DumbAss Password.

Perhaps not, but still worth pointing out what a dumbass password that was.




From sales at 911tools.com  Mon Oct 15 13:47:57 2001
From: sales at 911tools.com (911tools.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 16:47:57 -0400
Subject: Introducing the New 911tools.com
Message-ID: 


We are excited to introduce the new 911tools.com website.  For those of
you that are new to our site, we offer top quality Public Safety Gifts &
Gear for law enforcement, firefighters, EMS, Military, & more.

As a special, use coupon code "NEW" to receive $5 off your first order
(offer expires 10/3/01).

Also, receive a free small pocket keychain knife with your order.  See
site for details.

Check out our site @ www.911tools.com




-----To Unsubscribe-----
To be removed from the 911tools list, reply to this message and type
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From honig at sprynet.com  Mon Oct 15 16:51:13 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 16:51:13 -0700
Subject: [OT] Anthrax protocol issued.
In-Reply-To: <8D598826-C1C3-11D5-9C6B-0050E439C473@got.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011015150949.03aa8e10@bivens.parrhesia.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011015165113.00b5ca70@pop.sprynet.com>


At 04:22 PM 10/15/01 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>On Monday, October 15, 2001, at 03:24 PM, Greg Broiles wrote:
>
>> Some people may have anthrax spores in their nose but no infection 
>> (perhaps they were exposed to far fewer than the 5-10000 spores needed 
>> for inhalational anthrax) and some people may have an infection but no 
>> spores in their nose (because they have cutaneous anthrax, or because 
>> they blew their nose a lot, or because they're frequent users of 
>> powderered inhaled drugs like cocaine or amphetamine and don't have 
>> hair inside their noses).
>
>Are you claiming that the reason the media have been hit by these 
>anthrax attacks is because most of them are coke whores?
>
>I draw the line on the mirror at that.
>
>**SNORT!**
>
>
>--Tim May

Forget ciliary damage; imagine anthrax mixed with cocaine.  

Wouldn't hurt the crack heads though.  Most of congress
(but not their offspring) would survive.




From sales at 911tools.com  Mon Oct 15 13:56:51 2001
From: sales at 911tools.com (911tools.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 16:56:51 -0400
Subject: Introducing the New 911tools.com
Message-ID: 


We are excited to introduce the new 911tools.com website.  For those of
you that are new to our site, we offer top quality Public Safety Gifts &
Gear for law enforcement, firefighters, EMS, Military, & more.

As a special, use coupon code "NEW" to receive $5 off your first order
(offer expires 10/3/01).

Also, receive a free small pocket keychain knife with your order.  See
site for details.

Check out our site @ www.911tools.com




-----To Unsubscribe-----
To be removed from the 911tools list, reply to this message and type
"remove" as the ONLY word in the subject line.




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Mon Oct 15 14:03:42 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 17:03:42 -0400
Subject: Slashdot | First Steganographic Image Found In The Wild NOT
Message-ID: 


Jim:

Read the goddamn article before posting. This is just a regurgitation of the
Goldman/Provos/ABC article in which they faked up a stego'd
picture for a newscast.

It is NOT an example of 'stego in the wild', and if you'd bothered to read
the comment stream on the slashdot article, you'd know that.

You're wasting peoples time with false and misleading info, and
show yourself to be a fool.

But when since was that unusual?

Peter Trei


> ----------
> From: 	Jim Choate[SMTP:ravage at ssz.com]
> Reply To: 	cypherpunks at ssz.com
> Sent: 	Monday, October 15, 2001 3:55 PM
> To: 	hell at einstein.ssz.com; cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> Subject: 	Slashdot | First Steganographic Image Found In The Wild
> 
> http://slashdot.org/articles/01/10/15/1727249.shtml
> -- 
> 
>  --
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>      The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.
> 
>                                              Edmund Burke (1784)
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Mon Oct 15 09:10:54 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 17:10:54 +0100
Subject: stupid anthrax q: would microwaving your snail mail help?
References: <200110142259.f9EMxRB33402@mailserver1c.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: <3BCB0A8E.31867227@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


auto301094 at hushmail.com wrote:

[...]

> 12) Technical assistance can be provided immediately by contacting [...]
> the local Weapons of Mass Destruction Coordinator

Every neighbourhood should have one

[...]




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Mon Oct 15 14:27:26 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 17:27:26 -0400
Subject: A REALLY DIFFERENT terrorist threat view.
References: <4F9051E6-C0B9-11D5-9467-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <3BCB54BE.C82D6627@acmenet.net>


Tim May wrote:

> Basically, if you've seen the Mel Gibson movie "Conspiracy Theory," this
> guy Bearden is the Mel Gibson character.

Just checked his web site. Did you mean to say Mel Gibson or Mel Brooks?


His web site demonstrates a high rate of production and a low
signal-to-noise ratio. The web at it's best!


-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From anonymous at anonymizer.com  Mon Oct 15 17:38:00 2001
From: anonymous at anonymizer.com (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 17:38 -0700
Subject: Who represents the detained? Nobody...
Message-ID: <200110160038.RAA16922@sirius.infonex.com>


>"In a high-security wing of Manhattan's Metropolitan Correctional Center, 
>an unknown number of men with Middle Eastern names are being held in 
>solitary confinement on the ninth floor, locked in 8- by 10-foot cells with 
>little more than cots, thin blankets and, if they request it, copies of the 
>Koran. Every two hours, guards roust them to conduct a head count. They 
>have no contact with each other or their families and limited access to 
>their lawyers. 

5000 people went through a 1000-degree meat grinder
on 9/11 without an opportunity for any due process, 
and don't fucking forget it.


         The ghost of Due Process hovers above the funeral pyre where her 
entire sisterhood burned, drifting between the wafting billows of rancid 
smoke, and I ask myself: What is to be done?




From anonymous at anonymizer.com  Mon Oct 15 17:39:00 2001
From: anonymous at anonymizer.com (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 17:39 -0700
Subject: Who represents the detained? Nobody...
Message-ID: <200110160039.RAA16992@sirius.infonex.com>


>"In a high-security wing of Manhattan's Metropolitan Correctional Center, 
>an unknown number of men with Middle Eastern names are being held in 
>solitary confinement on the ninth floor, locked in 8- by 10-foot cells with 
>little more than cots, thin blankets and, if they request it, copies of the 
>Koran. Every two hours, guards roust them to conduct a head count. They 
>have no contact with each other or their families and limited access to 
>their lawyers. 

5000 people went through a 1000-degree meat grinder
on 9/11 without an opportunity for any due process, 
and don't fucking forget it.




From tcmay at got.net  Mon Oct 15 18:02:25 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 18:02:25 -0700
Subject: Who represents the detained? Nobody...
In-Reply-To: <200110160038.RAA16922@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <7665F15B-C1D1-11D5-9C6B-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Monday, October 15, 2001, at 05:38 PM, Anonymous wrote:

>> "In a high-security wing of Manhattan's Metropolitan Correctional 
>> Center,
>> an unknown number of men with Middle Eastern names are being held in
>> solitary confinement on the ninth floor, locked in 8- by 10-foot cells 
>> with
>> little more than cots, thin blankets and, if they request it, copies 
>> of the
>> Koran. Every two hours, guards roust them to conduct a head count. They
>> have no contact with each other or their families and limited access to
>> their lawyers.
>
> 5000 people went through a 1000-degree meat grinder
> on 9/11 without an opportunity for any due process,
> and don't fucking forget it.

People who think like "Anonymous" above should ask themselves a simple 
question:


"What would you think if _you_ were seized in a pre-dawn raid, held 
without charges, never allowed to confront evidence, not allowed to 
contact the attorney of your choice, cut off from communications with 
your family and friends, and held in jail for several weeks or more?"

I know I'd be out for blood, McVeigh-style.

My rough figure of merit is that for every _day_ that I am held 
unjustly, a member of the forces which held me must die.

If this means killing an office building of them for unjustly holding me 
for 30 days, so be it.

(Of course, I'd attempt to be more clever about it. But the morality of 
it is as I stated.)

As for "Anonymous," he's probably just another one of the "Anonymity 
should be banned" crowd, like the cretins at "Reason," the "Wall Street 
Journal," and so on. Funny how the most rabid statists often hide behind 
the very tools they want banned.

--Tim May
"Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and
strangled with her panty hose,  is somehow morally superior to a woman 
explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound"




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From: guest at guest.com (=?GB2312?B?vajVvtfK1LS/tL+0?=)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 18:05:02 +0800
Subject: =?GB2312?B?vajVvtfK1LS/tL+0?=
Message-ID: <200210151005.g9FA51Q31371@waste.minder.net>


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From saeq at gmx.net  Mon Oct 15 18:07:12 2001
From: saeq at gmx.net (Luthor Blisset)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 18:07:12 -0700
Subject: Who represents the detained? Nobody...
In-Reply-To: <200110160039.RAA16992@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011015174709.01e54c40@pop.gmx.net>


At 05:39 PM 10/15/01 -0700, somebody wrote:

> >"In a high-security wing of Manhattan's Metropolitan Correctional Center,
> >an unknown number of men with Middle Eastern names are being held in
> >solitary confinement on the ninth floor, locked in 8- by 10-foot cells with
> >little more than cots, thin blankets and, if they request it, copies of the
> >Koran. Every two hours, guards roust them to conduct a head count. They
> >have no contact with each other or their families and limited access to
> >their lawyers.
>
>5000 people went through a 1000-degree meat grinder
>on 9/11 without an opportunity for any due process,
>and don't fucking forget it.

         Do you seriously think that justifies suspension of due process? 
If you don't, why did you bring it up? That aside, I think it's been 
sufficiently demonstrated that you shouldn't treat people like collateral 
damage unless you wish to receive similar consideration...
         Did any governments that derive their being from the consent of 
the governed renege on promises to the 6000 in the WTC that they would have 
due process? Didn't think so. Work on one of the problems at hand, or shut 
the fuck up and crawl back under your rock, but either way, kindly refrain 
from further invoking emotion-laden irrelevancies. They get invoked more 
then often enough.

-- Luthor //Remembering is copying and copying is THEFT




From tcmay at got.net  Mon Oct 15 18:16:39 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 18:16:39 -0700
Subject: Who represents the detained? Nobody...
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011015174709.01e54c40@pop.gmx.net>
Message-ID: <731F1F24-C1D3-11D5-9C6B-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Monday, October 15, 2001, at 06:07 PM, Luthor Blisset wrote:

> At 05:39 PM 10/15/01 -0700, somebody wrote:
>> 5000 people went through a 1000-degree meat grinder
>> on 9/11 without an opportunity for any due process,
>> and don't fucking forget it.
>
>         Do you seriously think that justifies suspension of due 
> process? If you don't, why did you bring it up? That aside, I think 
> it's been sufficiently demonstrated that you shouldn't treat people 
> like collateral damage unless you wish to receive similar 
> consideration...

The Constitution applies at _all_ times. It is not something that is 
only for nice, calm situations.

The Bill of Rights does not say that the various parts of the Bill of 
Rights are suspendable when someone decides there is some reason to. 
This means the USA Bill, with its suspension of big chunks of the Fourth 
Amendment, is ipso facto unconstitutional.

My belief is that every Congresscritter who voted to pass this USA Bill 
should be tried and executed.

As for the 600 "Arabic-looking" men (maybe a few women, I don't know) 
being held without charges being filed in a timely way, I'll chortle if 
even 10 of them become vengeance-seekers in the next 10 years.

Someone held unjustly, without charges being filed, is morally obliged 
to kill his oppressors.


--Tim May, Citizen-unit of of the once free United States
" The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood 
of patriots & tyrants. "--Thomas Jefferson, 1787




From keyser-soze at hushmail.com  Mon Oct 15 18:44:01 2001
From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 18:44:01 -0700
Subject: Who represents the detained? Nobody...
Message-ID: <200110160144.f9G1i1F58449@mailserver1c.hushmail.com>


>5000 people went through a 1000-degree meat grinder
on 9/11 without an opportunity for any due process, 
and don't fucking forget it.


>         The ghost of Due Process hovers above the funeral pyre where her 
entire sisterhood burned, drifting between the wafting billows of rancid 
smoke, and I ask myself: What is to be done? 

Target those who promised to protect us but decided that their careers, profits and politics came first.  It isn't very hard to create a long list from newspaper clippings over the past month.  Some of these are the same people looking for or receiving government handouts.  

Unless significant retribution is taken against them it sends the clear message that its OK to sell out your fellow citizens.  Its clear none will ever stand trial as our political legal process almost never holds anyone responsible for what they don't do (even when its their sworn duty) only what they do.  Unless many of these vermin switch cells with the, mostly, unfortunates held for victimless crimes nothing will ever change.




From keyser-soze at hushmail.com  Mon Oct 15 18:48:11 2001
From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 18:48:11 -0700
Subject: Who represents the detained? Nobody...
Message-ID: <200110160148.f9G1mBt59198@mailserver1c.hushmail.com>


At 06:02 PM 10/15/2001 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>"What would you think if _you_ were seized in a pre-dawn raid, held without charges, never allowed to confront evidence, not allowed to contact the attorney of your choice, cut off from communications with your family and friends, and held in jail for several weeks or more?"

>I know I'd be out for blood, McVeigh-style.

>My rough figure of merit is that for every _day_ that I am held unjustly, a member of the forces which held me must die.

>If this means killing an office building of them for unjustly holding me for 30 days, so be it.

Indeed.  If only 1 of 10 were successful in taking such measures it would quickly make such incarcirations a career limiting move for LE.




From saeq at gmx.net  Mon Oct 15 18:50:46 2001
From: saeq at gmx.net (Luthor Blisset)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 18:50:46 -0700
Subject: Who represents the detained? Nobody...
In-Reply-To: <731F1F24-C1D3-11D5-9C6B-0050E439C473@got.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011015174709.01e54c40@pop.gmx.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011015184303.01e5ab40@pop.gmx.net>


At 06:16 PM 10/15/01 -0700, somebody with the password to tcmay at got.net wrote:

>On Monday, October 15, 2001, at 06:07 PM, Luthor Blisset wrote:

>>         Do you seriously think that justifies suspension of due process? 
>> If you don't, why did you bring it up? That aside, I think it's been 
>> sufficiently demonstrated that you shouldn't treat people like 
>> collateral damage unless you wish to receive similar consideration...

>The Constitution applies at _all_ times. It is not something that is only 
>for nice, calm situations.
>
>The Bill of Rights does not say that the various parts of the Bill of 
>Rights are suspendable when someone decides there is some reason to. This 
>means the USA Bill, with its suspension of big chunks of the Fourth 
>Amendment, is ipso facto unconstitutional.

         You won't hear any disagreement from me, man. I was wondering if 
Anonymous was actually attempting to justify suspension of due process.
         Incedentally, I wonder if the USA Bill will get overturned by the 
Supreme Court anytime soon... Naaaa... Gr.

-- Luthor //Remembering is copying and copying is THEFT




From tcmay at got.net  Mon Oct 15 19:24:12 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 19:24:12 -0700
Subject: Cauterizing the Cancer Centered in Washington, D.C.
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011015184303.01e5ab40@pop.gmx.net>
Message-ID: 


On Monday, October 15, 2001, at 06:50 PM, Luthor Blisset wrote:

> At 06:16 PM 10/15/01 -0700, somebody with the password to tcmay at got.net 
> wrote:
>
>> On Monday, October 15, 2001, at 06:07 PM, Luthor Blisset wrote:
>
>>>         Do you seriously think that justifies suspension of due 
>>> process? If you don't, why did you bring it up? That aside, I think 
>>> it's been sufficiently demonstrated that you shouldn't treat people 
>>> like collateral damage unless you wish to receive similar 
>>> consideration...
>
>> The Constitution applies at _all_ times. It is not something that is 
>> only for nice, calm situations.
>>
>> The Bill of Rights does not say that the various parts of the Bill of 
>> Rights are suspendable when someone decides there is some reason to. 
>> This means the USA Bill, with its suspension of big chunks of the 
>> Fourth Amendment, is ipso facto unconstitutional.
>
>         You won't hear any disagreement from me, man. I was wondering 
> if Anonymous was actually attempting to justify suspension of due 
> process.
>         Incedentally, I wonder if the USA Bill will get overturned by 
> the Supreme Court anytime soon... Naaaa... Gr.


Watching the "cyber liberties" and "libertarian" crowd fall all over 
themselves to urge suspending basic liberties, I'd say there is zero 
chance the Supreme Court will overturn this or the other steamrollering 
pieces of repressive legislation.

All of the major networks are reporting polls on "How many civil 
liberties are you willing to give up in order to assure safety?" The 
worst of majoritarian rule, as the numbers show that about 80% of the 
sheeple favor giving up First Amendment rights, Fourth Amendment, Sixth 
Amendment, and other core rights. (The one odd reversal seems to be the 
trend on the Second...apparently women and other liberals are buying 
guns in record numbers.)

My view toward all of these "public surveys" is simple:

"You are quite welcome to vote to give up _your_ civil rights. But try 
restricting my access to crypto, my ability to defend myself, my 
requirement that evidence be presented against me in a timely fashion, 
and so on, and you've forfeited your life."

I listened last night to some of the "Wall Street Journal" editorial 
staff opining on CNN that "there may be a constitutional right to 
privacy, but there is no constitutional right to anonymity."

Wrong on both counts. There is no "right to privacy" in the 
Constitution. But if there is a requirement that government not enter 
homes or look through papers without legal process, which is what I 
think of as a "right to privacy," then the issue about a putative "right 
to anonymity" comes in as follows:

"Can government insist that people only communicate with others when 
they know the identity of their communicants and vice versa?"

The answer is that the Constitution says government may not interfere in 
this kind of speech.

This means I don't need permission to communicate with "Anon E. Moose" 
and he or she doesn't need permission from the government to communicate 
with _me).

Thus arises the "right to anonymity," from the lack of any power granted 
by the Constitution for the government to say whom may speak to whom.

And yet the WSJ, Reason, and all of the Usual Suspects are racing to 
re-interpret the Constitution to allow the suspension of habeas corpus 
(production of evidence in a timely, e.g., short, period), the 
revocation of the Fourth (medical, financial, other records seizable 
without proper warrants), the Sixth (speedy trial, etc.), and probably a 
bunch of other things.

Hell, at this rate we may see quartering of troops! ("If it is deemed 
important enough, the Homeland Security Directorate may deem certain 
houses to be used for accommodation of Geheimstaatspolizei Troops, er, 
the National Guard.").

Never has Ben Franklin's dire warning been more apropos. This challenge 
is comparable to the challenge faced when the First Fascist suppressed 
the Southern States, except more so in many ways...because the 
technological powers of control are ever so much greater today than they 
were in the America of the 1860s.

Cauterizing the entire Washington, D.C. area might slow them down, 
though.

--Tim May, Occupied America
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety 
deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759.




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Mon Oct 15 19:43:58 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 19:43:58 -0700
Subject: Who represents the detained? Nobody...
In-Reply-To: <7665F15B-C1D1-11D5-9C6B-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: 


C'punks,

Tim May wrote:

> My rough figure of merit is that for every
>_day_ that I am held  unjustly, a member of
> the forces which held me must die.
>
> If this means killing an office building
> of them for unjustly holding me for 30
> days, so be it.

Imaginary conversation at the FBI:

Special Agent #1:  I don't know, Bob, that latest Tim May posting could be
construed as hostile to law enforcement.

Special Agent #2:  Yeah, you COULD interpret that part about "killing an
office building of them" as a death threat, maybe, if you look at it in the
worst light.  All in all, it was a bit ambiguous.  Maybe the best thing to
do would be to give Mr. May an opportunity to clarify his remarks.  I'd
certainly like to find out what he was REALLY trying to say.

Special Agent #1:  Yeah, just a courtesy call should do it.  I'm sure we're
just over-reacting.

Another Agent has been quietly following the conversation.

Special Agent #3:  Are you guys nuts?  Admittedly that, "for every _day_
that I am held unjustly, a member of the forces which held me must die," is
obscure to the point of being positively Youngesque, but that's not all we
know about Mr. May.  Don't forget the hearsay post by one Cypherpunk which
suggested that many years ago, Mr. May could possibly have had on his person
a concealed weapon that--if he were to wear it outside--might or might not
have been a felony at the time, though the statute of limitations has
expired years ago.  Given that obvious a threat, we have no choices but to
go into Mr. May's compound, guns blazing and kill him.


 S a n d y

"First cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see
clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."




From anonymous at anonymizer.com  Mon Oct 15 19:56:00 2001
From: anonymous at anonymizer.com (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 19:56 -0700
Subject: Who represents the detained? Nobody...
Message-ID: <200110160256.TAA27515@sirius.infonex.com>


You all, including Mr. May, missed the subtlety of the point that 
due process has NOT been suspended in the case of these detainees.

They HAVE representation, and I don't THINK the Bill
of Rights says anywhere that you get to see Mommy
if you're arrested, but that you can obtain
representation, you are not required to incriminate
yourself, and so forth.  In theory.

I just can't bring myself to whine about the 
detained under the circumstances, when I know
of second-graders who are buried under a literal 
megaton of rubble.

Should "civil liberties be suspended?"  No.  
Should suspects be treated like kindergardners?
Fuck no.


>>         Do you seriously think that justifies suspension of due process? 
>> If you don't, why did you bring it up? That aside, I think it's been 
>> sufficiently demonstrated that you shouldn't treat people like 
>> collateral damage unless you wish to receive similar consideration...

>The Constitution applies at _all_ times. It is not something that is only 
>for nice, calm situations.
>
>The Bill of Rights does not say that the various parts of the Bill of 
>Rights are suspendable when someone decides there is some reason to. This 
>means the USA Bill, with its suspension of big chunks of the Fourth 
>Amendment, is ipso facto unconstitutional.




From tcmay at got.net  Mon Oct 15 20:16:56 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 20:16:56 -0700
Subject: Who represents the detained? Nobody...
In-Reply-To: <200110160256.TAA27515@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <40E46FCC-C1E4-11D5-9C6B-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Monday, October 15, 2001, at 07:56 PM, Anonymous wrote:

> You all, including Mr. May, missed the subtlety of the point that
> due process has NOT been suspended in the case of these detainees.
>
> They HAVE representation, and I don't THINK the Bill
> of Rights says anywhere that you get to see Mommy
> if you're arrested, but that you can obtain
> representation, you are not required to incriminate
> yourself, and so forth.  In theory.

Get a clue. The issue is not "get to see Mommy."

Rather, the issue is the holding of 600+ various persons, some of whom 
are very vaguely claimed to be "material witnesses."

An abuse of the Constitution. And I hope some large fraction of those 
600, when they are ultimately released because there are no grounds for 
indefinately imprisoning them, take up flight training.



-Tim Ma




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Mon Oct 15 20:20:47 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 20:20:47 -0700
Subject: Kill Killfile
In-Reply-To: <200110160301.XAA05845@blount.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: 


John Young cryptically wrote:

> Any message with the word kill in it needs
> killfiling.

How about if Tim just says, "euthanize"?


 S a n d y




From tcmay at got.net  Mon Oct 15 20:36:49 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 20:36:49 -0700
Subject: Kill Killfile
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <080AFA58-C1E7-11D5-9C6B-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Monday, October 15, 2001, at 08:20 PM, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

> John Young cryptically wrote:
>
>> Any message with the word kill in it needs
>> killfiling.
>
> How about if Tim just says, "euthanize"?

John Young's sudden squeamishness about What Needs to be Done 
is...typical.

He rants about CIA plots, he lists USG atrocities on his Cryptome site 
(kudos), he talks about the need for justice, but then he pulls back 
when someone points out the obvious implications of recent events. Kind 
of like a steak lover realizing belatedly that his food comes from the 
killing of cattle.


--Tim May
"You don't expect governments to obey the law because of some higher 
moral development. You expect them to obey the law because they know 
that if they don't, those who aren't shot will be hanged." - -Michael 
Shirley




From wolf at priori.net  Mon Oct 15 20:44:18 2001
From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 20:44:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Canada slaughters civil rights
Message-ID: 


It's convenient that ZKS dropped Freedom from it's product line,
nicely dodging the issue of "harboring terrorists."

Hrmm. Tim's been saying this for quite a while, and it's only going to get
worse.

-MW-


http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/americas/10/15/rec.attack.canada.reut/index.html

OTTAWA, Oct 15 (Reuters) -- Canada unveiled a sweeping security bill on
Monday to ban fund-raising by terrorist groups, widen wiretapping
authority and allow police to make preventive arrests of people they think
will engage in terrorism.

[...]

McLellan acknowledged that toughening sentencing for terrorists, as this
bill would do, was unlikely to deter militants who are willing to commit
suicide, like the hijackers of the airliners involved in the September 11
attacks.

But she said for that reason other measures in the bill were needed, such
as the ability to arrest potential assailants ahead of time, to force
people to testify before judges at investigative hearings and to intercept
communications.

[...]

One new feature is an expansion of the role of the secretive
Communications Security Establishment, which operates under the Defence
Department, in monitoring phone calls and e-mails from abroad.

[...]

"Now, having woken up, they (the Liberals) realize the very grave
situation," the Alliance's Vic Toews told Parliament.

[...]

The Canadian bill would also make it an offense to harbor a terrorist, as
in the U.S. legislation, and tighten hate crime provisions to eliminate
online "hate propaganda" and create a new offense of mischief against
places of worship.

[...]

In the run-up to Monday's introduction, civil liberties groups and lawyer
organizations had said McLellan was impinging too much on individual
freedoms.

But she said that in any court challenges the government would rely on a
provision in the constitution that allows the government to provide
"reasonable limits" on rights as needed for a free and democratic society.




From tcmay at got.net  Mon Oct 15 21:05:15 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 21:05:15 -0700
Subject: Canada slaughters civil rights
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <00D929EE-C1EB-11D5-9C6B-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Monday, October 15, 2001, at 08:44 PM, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote:

> It's convenient that ZKS dropped Freedom from it's product line,
> nicely dodging the issue of "harboring terrorists."
>
> Hrmm. Tim's been saying this for quite a while, and it's only going to 
> get
> worse.


Not just this, but they did it with an unacceptable amount of warning.

(Seven days, versus the past couple of years of obvious trends. It 
doesn't take much neural processing to see that their sudden 
re-focussing on some bullshit product like "cookie management" is a 
response to the new climate of fear.)

I'm surprised there has been little discussion (any discussion?) of the 
NAI decision this past week to lay off 250 of the 300 PGP employees (*) 
and to either sell the division to someone or abandon it completely.

(* As with ZKS and their couple of hundred employees, just how are 300 
PGP employees justified? As the comments on Slashdot point out, just how 
the hell does a product which has been evolving _very_ slowly 
conceivably justify 250-300 employees? DilbertWorld, obviously.)

> http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/americas/10/15/rec.attack.canada.reut/index.
> html
>
> OTTAWA, Oct 15 (Reuters) -- Canada unveiled a sweeping security bill on
> Monday to ban fund-raising by terrorist groups, widen wiretapping
> authority and allow police to make preventive arrests of people they 
> think
> will engage in terrorism.

Which, by the way, is _precisely_ the scenario I presented to Austin and 
Hammie in the late fall of 1998 when we met in Menlo Park. What are you 
going to do, I asked, when the RCMP says that a terrorist has hijacked 
the Queen's plane and ZKS is being ordered to reveal the mapping of 
identities? Can't do it, you say? Fine, then you're out of business as 
of right now.

The notion of a central service, located in a known location and subject 
to some nation's laws, is ludicrous.

ZKS founders said that they Canada was a "crypto haven" compared to the 
U.S., indicating deep confusion about just what it was Canada was more 
liberal about (export laws) and what it was Canada was more repressive 
about (nearly everything else). Most importantly of all, Canada is a 
second cousin to the U.S. and does what it is told to do, with no 
constitutional niceties.

So, NAI is abandoning PGP (no great loss, actually), ZKS is abandoning 
Freedom (ditto), and some crypto luminaries are falling all over 
themselves to support police state measures.

And, ironically, it won't make us one whit safer.

Ben was right.

--Tim May, Occupied America
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety 
deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759.




From wolf at priori.net  Mon Oct 15 21:50:29 2001
From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 21:50:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Canada slaughters civil rights
In-Reply-To: <00D929EE-C1EB-11D5-9C6B-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: 


On Mon, 15 Oct 2001, Tim May wrote:

> I'm surprised there has been little discussion (any discussion?) of the
> NAI decision this past week to lay off 250 of the 300 PGP employees (*)
> and to either sell the division to someone or abandon it completely.

Judging from the trouble that company has had over the course of its
history, I wouldn't be surprised if this decision would have happened
regardless of the terrorist attacks. NAI has been down-sizing over the
past year, and recently moved a good number of its positions out of the
Bay Area to places like Maryland and (gasp) Canada.

> (* As with ZKS and their couple of hundred employees, just how are 300
> PGP employees justified? As the comments on Slashdot point out, just how
> the hell does a product which has been evolving _very_ slowly
> conceivably justify 250-300 employees? DilbertWorld, obviously.)

Both the 300 employee figure and the PGP name are misleading. My
understanding (and this is based on a conversation I had with a PGP
employee over a year ago, so it may not be exactly accurate) is that the
300 employees were of the "PGP Security, Inc." business unit. NAI was
restructured into four business units in 1999: Sniffer, Magic, McAffee,
and PGP Security. PGP Security was responsible for the traditional "Phil's
PGP"  products and their off-shoots as well as the TIS products (Gauntlet
Firewall, etc.) and NAI's IDS software (Cybercop.) This business unit
probably also had its own marketing and sales and support divisions.

"PGP Security" was far more than just the PGP product Cypherpunks think
of. I suspect the business unit was named this to capitalize on the
reputation of the PGP name.

Taking this into consideration, however, the employee numbers make a bit
more sense.

> The notion of a central service, located in a known location and subject
> to some nation's laws, is ludicrous.

Decentralization has been discussed extensively here in the past, so I'm
not going to comment on that. However, I haven't seen any really plausible
suggestions on how to go about hiding the location of network
infrastructure providing a service. Sure, some components of the system
can be hidden, such as middleman remailers operating behind nym.alias.net
accounts, but this still requires some remailers to be "out in the open."
And, of course, if a physical component is required, then the service will
be subject to some nation's laws.

The best we can do is ensure that there is no nation whose laws affect all
components of this system. (Example being the decentralized network of
mixmaster remailers scattered around the globe.)

This isn't a solution, however. Every nation in which remailers currently
reside could pass a resolution banning them, and that would be curtains.

So, back to my point. The problems I see with achieving the ideal
environment for such services are:

1) How does one avoid being in the jurisdiction of any nation?

2) How does one hide the physical locations of any part of an entire
network?

The first problem is pretty unsolvable. (Starting your own country is not
a feasible solution, in my opinion. For instance, Sealand exists because
Britain tolerates it. As soon as it is branded "a terrorist bunker in
cyberspace" there would be plenty of justification for bombing it.)

I'm interested in hearing thoughts on the second problem, or pointers to
work done on this.


-MW-




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Mon Oct 15 18:59:04 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 21:59:04 -0400
Subject: Missing details on Afghanistan: Natural Gas (fwd)
References: <2FBFB81C-C0BE-11D5-9467-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <3BCB9468.497A2A3@acmenet.net>


Tim May wrote:

> (For those who get their history from James Bond movies...

 I prefer "alternative history" novels. Makes for interesting
conversations when you tell someone about the rocketry experiments in
medieval Spain which were destroyed with no traces by a ship of Japanese
sailors who were blown halfway around the world.

-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Mon Oct 15 19:07:57 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 22:07:57 -0400
Subject: Killing off jack-booted thugs
References: <200110160148.f9G1mBt59198@mailserver1c.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: <3BCB967D.FA41F43A@acmenet.net>


keyser-soze at hushmail.com wrote:
> 
> At 06:02 PM 10/15/2001 -0700, Tim May wrote:
...
> >My rough figure of merit is that for every _day_ that I am held unjustly, a member of the forces which held me must die.
> 
> >If this means killing an office building of them for unjustly holding me for 30 days, so be it.
> 
> Indeed.  If only 1 of 10 were successful in taking such measures it would quickly make such incarcirations a career limiting move for LE.

John Ross's novel _Unintended Consequences_ covers this. The book is
mainly about gun control in the US, but is easily extended to crypto and
civil rights issues. More to the point, in the latter third of the book,
some fed-up citizens start killing feds.

Decent book. A bit long, but fast reading. Recommended.


SRF

-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Oct 15 22:55:30 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 22:55:30 -0700
Subject: Kill Killfile
In-Reply-To: 
References: <7665F15B-C1D1-11D5-9C6B-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <200110160301.XAA05845@blount.mail.mindspring.net>


Any message with the word kill in it needs killfiling.

Sir, USA, USA.




From anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org  Mon Oct 15 21:18:00 2001
From: anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org (Incognito Innominatus)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 23:18:00 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Who represents the detained? Nobody...
Message-ID: <06c6cac981e1d6cd9f2a77b95b4cce17@mixmaster.nullify.org>


On Mon, 15 Oct 2001, Tim May wrote:

> Get a clue. The issue is not "get to see Mommy."
[...]
> -Tim Ma

Hhmmm.




From rpw at uni.de  Mon Oct 15 15:01:17 2001
From: rpw at uni.de (Ralf-P. Weinmann)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 00:01:17 +0200
Subject: [OT] Anthrax protocol issued.
In-Reply-To: <20011014165545.D7020@navel.introspect>; from
  kmself@ix.netcom.com on Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 04:55:45PM -0700
References: 
  <20011014165545.D7020@navel.introspect>
Message-ID: <20011016000117.A28107@rbg.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de>


On Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 04:55:45PM -0700, Karsten M. Self wrote:

[...]
> >     - CDC currently does NOT recommend the use of nasal swab specimens
> >       as part of evaluating anthrax threats/implied threats or
> >       evaluating concerned citizens who think they may have been exposed
> >       to anthrax.
[...]

Does anyone know why the CDC does not recommend using nasal swab specimens
for testing ? Is that because you can only reliably detect inhalational
anthrax that way or is there any other reason ?

Cheers,
Ralf

-- 
Ralf-P. Weinmann 
PGP fingerprint: 2048/46C772078ACB58DEF6EBF8030CBF1724




From marvanderzaanonu at vanderzaan.com  Mon Oct 15 18:01:21 2001
From: marvanderzaanonu at vanderzaan.com (Dalton Colon)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 00:01:21 -0060
Subject: You can save your money
Message-ID: <910400433.42005242120939@thebat.net>


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 " Snow said. " Snow said. and we will act in a timely fashion," Bush at the White House to present the boundcontribution." warns of dire consequences, both at home  to find "common ground" on Iraq policy.and abroad, if the US. fails to take action."The report represents another blow at the policy 

Kati Kim told officers they were  up two nights earlier in thermal imaging.midday.freezing in lower elevations. The weather tires to stay warm and attract 

 "Our ship of state has hit rough waters.reaction after receiving Iraq report Video) peace plan on all fronts. to conduct criminal investigations, nor the"The report represents another blow at the policy  political or economic one, but rather a combination of the three. going to deal with."including direct talks with Iran and

to ask why he did that," he said.Anderson said. "There are people pouring their heartsaid Lt. Gregg Hastings of the Oregon Portland and headed home  a red T-shirt, a sock and a have requested that their The Kims had been missingAnderson said he does not know why since November 25, when they left 

catastrophe," the report says.its base of operations. The global standing of reconciliation -- "neither of which "The government sometimes provides services on a were calls for a change in the primary mission ability of the United States to influence to find "common ground" on Iraq policy.

but it is not plowed in the winter.after a holiday trip to the Pacific Northwest.gray pants they believed belonged  Kati Kim nursed her children.However, it wasn't clear whoseThe clothing, which was wet, is commonly used by whitewater raftersgoing to quit until we find him."Clothing and bits of an Oregon mapfive miles of the car, he said.

"You can't look at this part of the world Joe Biden, who will head the foreign relations  Baker said. "If we do what we recommend in thiswithin the country, complicate brigade and battalion  Iraq "grave and deteriorating" Wednesday and the unnecessary detention, torture, and targeted execution including direct talks with Iran and

Stuck, they used their car heater midday.freezing in lower elevations. The weather tires to stay warm and attract  to summon help for his stranded family and soul into this. We are not  (Watch Anderson's emotional reaction Video)the pants over blue jeans when he left.remove Kim's body, and his

Although U.S. troops have received adequateaccording to the report.Attacks against U.S. and coalition troops are "persistent and growing," theacknowledged. It's an acknowledgement of reality." to find "common ground" on Iraq policy.efforts to get to know the local scene, earn the 

after a holiday trip to the Pacific Northwest.Rand-McNally map did not have a turnoff to a state highway, have requested that their The Kims had been missingAnderson said he does not know why

the Iraqi people are "suffering great hardship"even worse, states the report.contribution."No timetable"The report represents another blow at the policy 

 map the couple used. The 2005-2007Fog hampers searchwarning in red print, inside a red box: helicopters were searching for Kim,  and soul into this. We are not technology media company CNET Networks  Kim went into the drainage area.  of the Oregon State Patrol. Searchers also found a pair of 
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From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Mon Oct 15 21:38:55 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 00:38:55 -0400
Subject: Cauterizing the Cancer Centered in Washington, D.C.
References: 
Message-ID: <3BCBB9DE.3E64E092@acmenet.net>


Tim May wrote:

<>

> I listened last night to some of the "Wall Street Journal" editorial
> staff opining on CNN that "there may be a constitutional right to
> privacy, but there is no constitutional right to anonymity."
> 
> Wrong on both counts. There is no "right to privacy" in the
> Constitution.

That's exactly why some people argued against passage of the Bill of
Rights a couple of centuries ago: the listing of some rights in the BoR
would be taken as a complete listing. The Ninth Amendment is supposed to
counteract that, but it's so widely ignored as to be meaningless.

If the US Constitution does not clearly state that the federal
government is allowed to invade your privacy, they're not allowed to. It
doesn't matter how the Interstate Commerce clause is construed, nor how
"provide for the common defense" in the preamble is read: if the
Constitution doesn't explicitly give the feds the right to snoop on your
private affairs, they don't have it.



> Hell, at this rate we may see quartering of troops!...

The Third Amendment's prohibition on the quartering of troops has been
given as a possible defense for evidence gathered by snoopware. Is a
program, installed by a federal agent on a privately-owned computer, a
"soldier" for Constitutional purposes?


SRF

-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Mon Oct 15 21:49:03 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 00:49:03 -0400
Subject: Canada slaughters civil rights
References: <00D929EE-C1EB-11D5-9C6B-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <3BCBBC3F.77898AD7@acmenet.net>


Tim May wrote:

> I'm surprised there has been little discussion (any discussion?) of the
> NAI decision this past week to lay off 250 of the 300 PGP employees (*)
> and to either sell the division to someone or abandon it completely.

Probably because PGP isn't that important to us. Aside from an Outlook
plug-in (for those who use Outlook) does it offer any advantages over
GPG? PGP on Windows might be easier for a non-geek than GPG; I'm not in
a position to evaluate.



-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Mon Oct 15 22:19:54 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 01:19:54 -0400
Subject: mirror volunteers needed
References: 
Message-ID: <3BCBC379.F917222B@acmenet.net>


Julian Assange wrote:

> If you are brave and have a unix account/machine with approximately
> 2Gig of disk free, we need you.

More details, please. Mainly the kind of material to be hosted. Holding
2GB of kiddie porn (horseman alert!) might be objectionable on moral
grounds as well as legal grounds.

What kind of traffic is expected, in terms of connections per hours and
bytes per hour?

Why does it need to be a *NIX machine? Ease of remote access, security,
active content, or the requirements of the mirroring software?

The mirror would presumably need a fixed IP address. Are there any other
requirements?


-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From drevil at sidereal.kz  Mon Oct 15 21:14:39 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil)
Date: 16 Oct 2001 04:14:39 -0000
Subject: Who represents the detained? Nobody...
In-Reply-To: <06c6cac981e1d6cd9f2a77b95b4cce17@mixmaster.nullify.org>
  (message from Incognito Innominatus on Mon, 15 Oct 2001 23:18:00 -0500
  (CDT))
References: <06c6cac981e1d6cd9f2a77b95b4cce17@mixmaster.nullify.org>
Message-ID: <20011016041439.32056.qmail@sidereal.kz>


> Hhmmm.

"Hhmmm" is probably the only thing we all agree on here.




From hakkin at sarin.com  Tue Oct 16 05:25:35 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 05:25:35 -0700
Subject: .mil censor$ commerc. satellite imagery
Message-ID: <3BCC273F.28285FB6@sarin.com>


             http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGA01DJ9VSC.html

Military Buys Exclusive Rights to Commercial Satellite's Pictures of War
                                  Zone
               By John J. LumpkinAssociated Press Writer
                         Published: Oct 16, 2001
WASHINGTON (AP) - The U.S. military is paying for the exclusive rights
to commercial satellite imagery of Afghanistan even though its own
satellites are thought to take far better pictures.

This could serve two purposes: to provide an extra eye on Afghanistan,
and to prevent anyone else from peeking at the war zone.

The images of the Ikonos satellite, among the best available to the
public, will add to those collected by military satellites and
airplanes, Joan Mears, a spokeswoman for the National Imagery and
Mapping Agency, said.

Mears declined to discuss how much the government is paying for the
pictures, only saying that the agency has paid for exclusive access to
the area involved in Operation Enduring Freedom, the military code name
for the strikes in Afghanistan.

The agency's contract with Denver-based Space Imaging Inc. began Oct. 7
and is believed to be in the multimillion-dollar range.

A Space Imaging executive said the U.S. government had recently signed a
large contract with his company, not only buying exclusive rights to the
imagery but paying for all the time that the satellite is over the
target area.

This serves to prevent anyone else from using Ikonos to take pictures of
the war zone. It also prevents Space Imaging from selling the pictures
to anyone else, which the company does with most of its imagery.

Mark Brender, executive director of government affairs and corporate
communications for Space Imaging, declined to reveal the amount of the
contract but said "it was a wonderful business transaction."

Top-of-the-line Ikonos pictures have one-meter resolution, meaning the
satellite can distinguish features on the ground one meter in size or
larger.

"You can count the cars in a parking lot, tell which are pickups and
sedans, and tell what color they are," Brender said.

Ikonos pictures can cost buyers up to $200 per square kilometer of
imagery, he said. Quick turnaround costs an extra $3,000, he said.

The resolution achieved by U.S. military satellites is kept secret, but
it is probably about 10 times better than Ikonos can provide, said
Steven Aftergood, a government secrecy analyst and intelligence expert
with the Federation of American Scientists, a Washington-based watchdog
group. He estimated military satellites can take pictures that
distinguish objects as small as 10 centimeters in size.

But buying Ikonos imagery will still serve some military purpose,
Aftergood said. U.S. military satellites and reconnaissance aircraft
cannot be over the war zone at every instant, and Ikonos could serve as
a backup. The satellite could also be used to take images where less
resolution is needed, freeing up military satellites for more detailed
work in the hunt for Osama bin Laden.

Buying exclusive rights to the pictures will keep the public - and the
Taliban and bin Laden - from knowing where the U.S. military is looking.
If a series of pictures of the airfield at Kandahar suddenly showed up
on Space Imaging's Web site, that could provide a clue to U.S. military
plans.

But the government is also denying the public the use of an important
tool for oversight of its activities, Aftergood said, noting the media
frequently buys satellite pictures of areas of news interest.

"At the moment, we're essentially dependent on the Pentagon as a sole
source for battle information and damage assessment," he said. "This
commercial imagery would provide one independent channel for assessing
the conduct of the war."

In Afghanistan, groups could also use such imagery to track the
movements of refugees and better plan food supplies for them, Aftergood
said.




From hakkin at sarin.com  Tue Oct 16 05:57:10 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 05:57:10 -0700
Subject: Got Ammo?
Message-ID: <3BCC2EA6.852105A9@sarin.com>


                In the most significant gun control measure of the year,

                Governor Davis approved legislation that requires
handgun
                owners to pass a written test and prove to a state
instructor that
                they know how to handle a gun safely. The laws, which go
into
                effect in 2003, also require new owners of handguns to
provide
                the Department of Justice with a thumbprint.

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/16/national/16CALI.html

JY how do you feel about the term "organ harvesting" ???




From ENCorporations at wowmail.com  Tue Oct 16 07:07:10 2001
From: ENCorporations at wowmail.com (ENCorporations)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 07:07:10
Subject: ASTOUNDING OPPORTUNITY!!!
Message-ID: <200110161206.HAA30747@einstein.ssz.com>






EASY, EASY, EASY GETTING PAID BY SENDING E-MAILS

Want to stay at home but can't afford it? Work this program part-time and 
make enough to supplement or work it full time and make the BIG BUCKS!  For 
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From nobody at dizum.com  Mon Oct 15 22:10:13 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 07:10:13 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: OT: NBC Lists?
Message-ID: <9195019e65936f671f1666cf8e9931d2@dizum.com>


I'm interested in subscribing to lists that deal with NBC warfare in a terrorist context. I'm interested more in information than uninformed discussion. Any suggestions would appreciated.




From jya at pipeline.com  Tue Oct 16 07:42:02 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 07:42:02 -0700
Subject: Kill Killfile
In-Reply-To: <080AFA58-C1E7-11D5-9C6B-0050E439C473@got.net>
References: 
Message-ID: <200110161148.HAA04991@hall.mail.mindspring.net>


Yes, I'm squeamish about the word k*lling due to that USA USA 
thing, the citizen k*lling Act and the official-patriotic k*llings 
raging overseas and vengeful biowar retribution starting at 
home.

K*lling mobs k*ll for insane reasons. So I'm doing my best not to 
offend itchy fingers unnecessarily, especially not yours Tim. 

Trash talk their beliefs, sure, but not at a time when murder is 
officially sanctioned and payback passion arising.

Sir, I say, to those who yearn to k*ll.

So?




From nobody at dizum.com  Mon Oct 15 22:50:14 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 07:50:14 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: mirror volunteers needed
Message-ID: <794e3c4940391eada662de702507755f@dizum.com>


To mirror what?




From jamesd at echeque.com  Tue Oct 16 08:30:44 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 08:30:44 -0700
Subject: Martial law supposedly implemented in the US
Message-ID: <3BCBF034.24388.39EA15@localhost>


    --
According to Pravda, the US is now under martial law

http://english.pravda.ru/main/2001/10/08/17359.html

In the newsgroups, I often encounter commies with exceedingly 
strange ideas about what is happening in the US.

Now I know where Chomsky gets his US news from.

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     wIInoy0EJHYu/mbQbGEeJaRNPwQoPl23P+iFNgWo
     4890dfXDRaxJT5Cm7LFDn2eBL4pbuRwIO/IPvUby2




From stevet at sendon.net  Tue Oct 16 02:21:11 2001
From: stevet at sendon.net (Steve Thompson)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 09:21:11 +0000
Subject: OT: NBC Lists?
References: <9195019e65936f671f1666cf8e9931d2@dizum.com>
Message-ID: <200110160929.JAA07188@divert.sendon.net>



Nomen Nescio (nobody at dizum.com), in a desperate bid to entertain, wrote:
> I'm interested in subscribing to lists that deal with NBC warfare in a
> terrorist context. I'm interested more in information than uninformed
> discussion. Any suggestions would appreciated.

A messsage posted recently had the following footer:

> ==^================================================================
> EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?bz8Q0W.a9I0on   
> Or send an email To: biowar-unsubscribe at topica.com
> This email was sent to: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de
>  
> T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail!
> http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register
> ==^================================================================

You should be able to figure out how to do the opposite of unsubscribe from
that information.  Be careful, though; there might be terrorists subscribed to
it.


Regards,

Steve

-- 
Oldthinkers unbellyfeel Ingsoc.




From ichudov at Algebra.COM  Tue Oct 16 07:22:19 2001
From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 09:22:19 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: stupid anthrax q: would microwaving your snail mail help?
In-Reply-To: <3BC9F164.4BE4C9EE@sunder.net> from "sunder" at Oct 14, 2001 04:11:16 PM
Message-ID: <200110161422.f9GEMKB19814@manifold.algebra.com>


My guess would be that microwaving them will not help. Microwaves heat
up moist things by starting electric currents in them. Anthrax spores
are not moist and probably will not even heat up.

Try your regular stove. Set it to, say, 400 degrees and pray that the papers
will remain legible. I'd prbobably be more likely to be attacked by meteorites
or abducted by aliens than be anthraxed via mail, but *if* I had to sterilize mail,
I would use a stove.

igor

Probablysunder wrote:
> 
> 
> This is a stupid question but as I'm not a biologist, I'll ask it anyway and risk
> looking foolish...
> 
> Would it help to microwave your mail if you don't know where it came from and you're sure it doesn't contain an objects?  i.e. it's
> not a CD you've ordered from Amazon. :)
> 
> Do anthrax spores get cooked enough by microwaves to be killed, or are they too dry in spore form to be nuked?
> 
> Of course, if we start mass nuking our mail, the terrorists might mail us something that would explode when nuked... still, for now
> it's a question to ask.
> 
> -- 
> ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
>  + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
>   \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
> <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
>   /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
>  + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
> --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------
> 



	- Igor.




From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu  Tue Oct 16 06:50:37 2001
From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 09:50:37 -0400
Subject: mirror volunteers needed
In-Reply-To: <20011016095620.EADAC259F0@suburbia.net>
References: <3BCBC379.F917222B@acmenet.net>
  <20011016095620.EADAC259F0@suburbia.net>
Message-ID: <20011016095036.C12622@ils.unc.edu>


On Tue, Oct 16, 2001 at 07:56:20PM +1000, Julian Assange wrote:
> 
> > Julian Assange wrote:
> > 
> > > If you are brave and have a unix account/machine with approximately
> > > 2Gig of disk free, we need you.
> > 
> > More details, please. Mainly the kind of material to be hosted. Holding
> > 2GB of kiddie porn (horseman alert!) might be objectionable on moral
> > grounds as well as legal grounds.
> 
> Documents and images. No kiddie porn, but there are still three
> other horsemen to choose from. Absolutely legal for now, bar
> retrospective legislation, but that won't stop the horse trainers
> from pretending otherwise. Constitutionally protected in the US,
> but that doesn't mean you won't cop flak from ISP higher-up and
> other organisations regardless of where you live.

Where's the site?  I'm sure some of us might be interested
if we can see whether we care about the content.

> If you'd be happy to mirror cryptome.org, then you'd probably be
> happy to mirror this material.

Thanks for the legal advice.  cryptome still has decss.zip (and I'm
damned happy they do).  Nearly every other site with it caved to MPAA
pressure.  (Publicly) mirroring cryptome isn't for the timid.  Asking
people to mirror content that might be dangerous to their status with
their upstream provider requires some more details.

  -- Greg




From jya at pipeline.com  Tue Oct 16 10:12:15 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 10:12:15 -0700
Subject: NSA Saudi Intercepts
Message-ID: <200110161418.KAA23390@hall.mail.mindspring.net>


Seymor Hersh writes in the October 22 New Yorker about
extensive NSA intercepts of high level Saudi communications
which frankly own up to massive corruption among the 
hard-whoring 5,000 princes and anthrax-snorting co-criminals, 
with a big chunk of the pork-bloodied money going to America's 
most wanted and US-oil-subsidized potbellied piggie.

Not online yet at newyorker.com, but perhaps soon elsewhere.

If Hersh got to hear the intercepts for his detailed accounts
that could get his anonymous source disappeared (no,
not k*lled).




From info at giganetstore.com  Tue Oct 16 03:07:18 2001
From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:07:18 +0100
Subject: Entre na era MP3
Message-ID: <0499d18071010a1WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com>

  
  


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acerca 
das nossas promoções e novos serviços
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From Chinahawk at chinahawk.net  Mon Oct 15 20:10:41 2001
From: Chinahawk at chinahawk.net (Jerry Harmon)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:10:41 +0800
Subject: Disposable Body Bags and Protective Clothing
Message-ID: <200110160318.WAA12850@phish.siteprotect.com>


October16, 2001

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and body bags for Emergency Medical Services, Police, 
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(86-10) 6552-6175
(86-10) 6552-6180


Fax: 

(86-10) 6552-7836

Best regards;

Jerry Harmon
VP Sales and Marketing


If this e-mail has reached you in error then please type remove in 
the subject line and you will be removed from the list. Our e-mail 
list is manually generated by searching the net for those 
companies that are compatible with our business.
























NEVER SEND SPAM. IT IS BAD.




From malissi at reason.com  Tue Oct 16 11:13:59 2001
From: malissi at reason.com (Mike Alissi)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:13:59 -0700
Subject: Comments On Cathy Young's Defeatist Compromising 
Message-ID: 

Commentary  From Reason Magazine

Dear Matt -  I wanted to be sure you've seen Jacob Sullum's latest column at
Reason Online: 
It's copied below.

Thanks,

Mike


October 16, 2001

Fear of Prying

By Jacob Sullum

I first downloaded Pretty Good Privacy a couple of years ago, at the 
request of an interview subject. He was nervous about discussing his 
drug use through unprotected e-mail, and my willingness to use PGP 
reassured him not only that he would be safe from eavesdroppers but 
that he could trust me to take his privacy concerns seriously.

It was a small illustration of encryption's power, but it brought 
home to me what a godsend this kind of readily available, easily used 
software must be to dissidents who risk prison by sharing 
unauthorized information or expressing forbidden opinions. Phil 
Zimmermann had such people in mind when he created PGP a decade ago 
and risked prison by posting it online.

At the time, the U.S. government considered strong encryption 
software a "munition," and by making it available to human rights 
activists around the world Zimmermann was arguably violating a 
federal ban on the export of such weapons. Some politicians are 
trying to revive this sinister view of encryption in the wake of last 
month's terrorist attacks.

In a floor speech a week after hijacked airplanes collided with the 
Pentagon and the World Trade Center, Sen. Judd Gregg (R-N.H.) worried 
aloud about "somebody out there using encryption technology for the 
purposes of pursuing a terrorist act in the United States." He 
declared, "There is no excuse for anybody to be underwriting that 
type of activity in our country."

To prevent terrorists from shielding their communications, Gregg 
wants to make all producers of encryption systems design their 
products so the government can read the messages they generate. The 
surveillance would be "judicially controlled" to make sure it "simply 
gets at the bad guys."

Gregg's opposition to strong encryption is echoed in some surprising 
quarters. Boston Globe columnist Cathy Young, a colleague of mine at 
Reason magazine, has confessed that "the idea of people being able to 
encrypt electronic communications so that they are beyond 
surveillance" has always seemed "scary" to her, "precisely because of 
the threat of terrorism."

This is like saying that computers or telephones or airplanes or box 
cutters are scary. Any technology can be used for good or ill. The 
question is whether the potential for evil justifies restrictions on 
legitimate uses.

As more than one critic has pointed out, the arguments against strong 
encryption could also be used against strong locks, since criminals 
tend to hatch their plans behind closed doors. That doesn't mean all 
of us should make extra sets of house keys for the police in case 
they need to search our homes.

We have been down this road before with various proposals during the 
1990s for "key recovery" arrangements through which the authorities 
could break otherwise unbreakable codes.

Now as then, the most decisive argument against encryption controls 
is that they wouldn't work because PGP-like software is already 
available from a variety of sources.

Does Sen. Gregg plan to come to my house and erase my copy of PGP? If 
not, how can he possibly hope to stop terrorists, who are much more 
highly motivated than I am to shield their communications, from 
obtaining and using such software?

The attempt to do so would weaken security rather than enhancing it. 
A 1998 report from a panel of distinguished cryptographers and 
computer scientists concluded that "there are compelling reasons to 
believe that, given the state of the art in cryptology and secure 
systems engineering, government-access key recovery is not compatible 
with large scale, economical, secure cryptographic systems." A member 
of the panel, Matt Blaze, recently told The Washington Post, "I am 
extremely doubtful that this could be done without weakening computer 
systems, and the costs would be absolutely staggering."

In addition to the bugs introduced by added complexity, keeping extra 
copies of the keys used to decode messages would create tempting 
targets for thieves. The keys could also be compromised by 
incompetent or corrupt officials charged with protecting them.

Misuse of official records is not exactly unheard of in this country, 
and the problem would be magnified if every unsavory regime that has 
enlisted in the war on terrorism were to be trusted with the keys to 
its citizens' e-mail. For the dissidents Phil Zimmermann is rightly 
proud of helping, the whole point of encryption is to guard against 
official surveillance. If Gregg's vision were ever realized, they 
would once again have to watch what they say.

) Copyright 2001 by Creators Syndicate Inc.
Jacob Sullum's weekly column is distributed by Creators Syndicate. If 
you'd like to see it in your local newspaper, write or call the 
editorial page editor.


**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week)
Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722  ICQ: 106212065   Archived at 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/
**************************************************************************




From gbroiles at well.com  Tue Oct 16 11:20:06 2001
From: gbroiles at well.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:20:06 -0700
Subject: mirror volunteers needed
In-Reply-To: <20011016095620.EADAC259F0@suburbia.net>
References: <3BCBC379.F917222B@acmenet.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011016110015.0369f7f0@bivens.parrhesia.com>


At 07:56 PM 10/16/2001 +1000, Julian Assange wrote:
>The anonymous push nature of the mirroring software. We can support
>non-unix pull mirrors too, provided there are enough push mirrors
>to feed from. The software could be ported to other operating
>systems without too much difficulty, but that's another project.

I get the impression this isn't exactly "mirroring" static content, but 
participating in a distributed publishing/retrieval system, a la Freenet 
and Mojo Nation or BitTorrent .. or maybe more like Gnutella or Kazaa .. or 
even Publius, which was nice but never seemed to catch on.

Is that correct?


> > The mirror would presumably need a fixed IP address. Are there any other
> > requirements?
>
>An ability to create mail-aliases, gpg, perl5, and a good sense of humour :)

What software are you using? Is it well-known? Debugged? Is the source 
available? (well, it's Perl, I guess..)

I don't mind mirroring Cryptome, but I'm pretty wary of installing other 
people's newly-hacked-up code in a [quasi-]production environment .. your 
proposal creates two kinds of risk. The first, which is relatively familiar 
by now, is content risk, from people angry about the content .. the second 
is the risk of security problems in the code or its 
configuration/installation, and that sounds like a bigger issue to me.

Why not just use one of the existing distributed systems for this content? 
If you put content in the Gnutella or Kazaa systems, you can give us 
filenames or search strings and then we just make locally cached copies and 
leave machines running (even crappy little windows boxes) to create 
dispersed hard-to-clobber-them-all content. If you put it in the 
Mojo/Freenet/BitTorrent systems, and make the URLs of the content 
publically available, helpful people can make local copies of all or parts 
of your files pretty easily, too.

Or, alternately, make just content available as a .zip or .tgz, and let 
others serve it using FTP/HTTP servers they're already familiar with.

If you can find a way to separate the content risk from the untrusted 
software risk, this project (whatever it is) might have a better chance of 
success.


--
Greg Broiles
gbroiles at well.com
"We have found and closed the thing you watch us with." -- New Delhi street kids




From piolenc at mozcom.com  Mon Oct 15 20:48:32 2001
From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:48:32 +0800
Subject: Who represents the detained? Nobody...
References: <200110160038.RAA16922@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <3BCBAE10.619449BF@mozcom.com>




Anonymous wrote:

> 5000 people went through a 1000-degree meat grinder
> on 9/11 without an opportunity for any due process,
> and don't fucking forget it.

Two wrongs don't make a right - please don't forget that. Betraying the
very freedoms we aim to protect is going to do a lot more damage in the
long run than the WTC bombings.

Due process is for everybody.

Marc de Piolenc





From freematt at coil.com  Tue Oct 16 08:57:08 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:57:08 -0400
Subject: [PGP] Fear of Prying By Jacob Sullum
Message-ID: 



From jya at pipeline.com  Tue Oct 16 12:02:46 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 12:02:46 -0700
Subject: NSA Comints Saudi Pigs
In-Reply-To: <200110161418.KAA23390@hall.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <200110161608.MAA27953@hall.mail.mindspring.net>


Sy Hersh's report on NSA echeloning Royal Saudi pigs:

  http://www.newyorker.com/FACT/?011022fa_FACT1




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Tue Oct 16 12:04:46 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 12:04:46 -0700
Subject: ChefPunks
Message-ID: <3BCC84CE.BCA85093@lsil.com>



ichudov at Algebra.Com (Igor Chudov) wrote :
>
>One thing I would like to buy is a pressure cooker.
>
I have found them to be of little use. Save some $, try a garage sale.

>Another is a kind of charger that charges water with CO2, to make homemade
>fizzy water insteado f buying it at stores. In Russia these things were called
>syphons. Any ideas?
>
Apparently they're called siphons here too :

http://www.williams-sonoma.com//srch/name.cfm?ftype=name&imgs=on&name=soda

>igor
>
>> > Try your regular stove. Set it to, say, 400 degrees and pray that the papers
>> > will remain legible. I'd prbobably be more likely to be attacked by meteorites
>> > or abducted by aliens than be anthraxed via mail, but *if* I had to
>> > sterilize mail,
>> > I would use a stove.
>> 
>> In labs an autoclave is used to sterilize everything.
>> 
>> Autoclaves are basically pressure cookers, high pressure steam at 121
>> deg. Celsius and ~2 Bar kill everything.
>>
>
If 121C is adequate why not use the same temperature in your oven? I
doubt the absolute pressure matters.

A nitrogen atmosphere might be a good thing to reduce oxidation of inks
and paper. I doubt it would help your new Visa card though.

Mike

I use 107C in a conventional oven for ~8hours to do pork ribs. I'm
considering getting a smoker to do the last hour though.




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Tue Oct 16 04:05:00 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 12:05:00 +0100
Subject: Canada slaughters civil rights
References: <00D929EE-C1EB-11D5-9C6B-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <3BCC145C.D76EAAB4@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Tim May wrote:


[...]

 
> I'm surprised there has been little discussion (any discussion?) of the
> NAI decision this past week to lay off 250 of the 300 PGP employees (*)
> and to either sell the division to someone or abandon it completely.
> 
> (* As with ZKS and their couple of hundred employees, just how are 300
> PGP employees justified? As the comments on Slashdot point out, just how
> the hell does a product which has been evolving _very_ slowly
> conceivably justify 250-300 employees? DilbertWorld, obviously.)

Maybe they are like those money-losing airlines that laid off people
they would have laid off anyway and blamed it on the attack. Except in
this case they are claiming they would have done it anyway, knowing that
everyone will suspect they are lying and therefore assume they wouldn't
have because they know that we know that they know that we know... 
Well, maybe not.

(Kudos to Ryan Air, the low-price Irish airline which cut its prices and
kept flying, in fact they have opened new routes. They had a 20%
increase in passengers the week after, while the likes of Swiss Air &
Sabena were stranding travellers in remote parts.)

Ken Brown




From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Tue Oct 16 03:07:57 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 12:07:57 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: [BIOWAR]  10/15: Anthrax, White Powder (fwd)
Message-ID: 




-- Eugen* Leitl leitl
______________________________________________________________
ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204
57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 18:52:07 -0400
From: ds2000 
To: Biowar 
Subject: [BIOWAR]  10/15: Anthrax, White Powder

Sen. Daschle Letter Contained Anthrax
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011015/ts/attacks_anthrax_congress_20.html

NBC Anchor Says He May Have Been Exposed to Anthrax
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/nm/20011015/re/attack_anthrax_brokaw_dc_1.html

Envelopes with powder Sent to UN Test Negative
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011015/hl/anthrax_11.html

Canada Parliament Partly Closed After powder Scare
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011015/hl/powderscare_1.html

Suspicious powder Found in Germany
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011015/wl/germany_schroeder_s_office_2.html

Anthrax Scare Grounds Ohio Jet
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011015/us/anthrax_scare_plane_1.html

U.S. Passenger Jet Detained After Powder Found
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011015/ts/airlines_northwest_dc_1.html

N.J. Postal Workers Get Anthrax Test
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20011015/aponline151932_000.htm

Suspicious Letter Brings Crews to SF City Hall
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/kpix/20011015/lo/1518_1.html

Anthrax scare closes Toronto post office; White powder fell from
advertsing bundle
http://www.canada.com/ottawa/story.asp?id={33F3CFEA-6D9F-4AE8-B5F5-D0BED2ED2482}

Israeli Police Examine powder Found on El Al Plane
http://www.abcnews.go.com/wire/Living/reuters20011015_397.html

Swiss Drug Co. Worker Gets Letter with powder
http://www.abcnews.go.com/wire/Living/reuters20011015_288.html

--
Dan S

Post to: biowar at topica.com. Unsubscribe to: biowar-unsubscribe at topica.com. List info: www.topica.com/lists/biowar

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From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Tue Oct 16 12:15:16 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 12:15:16 -0700
Subject: .mil censor$ commerc. satellite imagery
In-Reply-To: <3BCC273F.28285FB6@sarin.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011016120518.038e31f0@idiom.com>


At 05:25 AM 10/16/2001 -0700, Khoder bin Hakkin wrote:
>              http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGA01DJ9VSC.html
>
>Military Buys Exclusive Rights to Commercial Satellite's Pictures of War
>                                   Zone
>                By John J. LumpkinAssociated Press Writer
>                          Published: Oct 16, 2001
>WASHINGTON (AP) - The U.S. military is paying for the exclusive rights
>to commercial satellite imagery of Afghanistan even though its own
>satellites are thought to take far better pictures.

That was interesting.  Today's SF Chronicle also has another article
on satellites, mainly focusing on the technology,
which is a lot better than during the First Gulf War.
Much of the content comes from GlobalSecurity.org,
a non-profit space and defense analysis center,
and there are also pointers to SpaceImaging.com.

Resolutions are better, and battlefield commanders can get color pictures,
weather images, infrared coverage which is good for checking bomb damage,
radar images, and faster responses for everything.
The article talks about 1-foot resolution; some other articles have
said there's technology as good as 10cm, though that's
mainly for narrow-focus pictures, not wide-area.
By contrast, First Gulf War images were mainly 10meter.
French Spot satellites have 1-meter resolution,
and Ikonos was at least that good before the military did the
exclusivity deal.   A new commercial satellite called
Quickbird is being launched later this week by DigitalGlobe Corp.
It should do 2 feet for black&white and eight feet for color and infrared.

One of the Internet map sites, I think Mapquest, also has
aerial photos for many US areas.  I'm not sure if they're satellite
or if they're airplane-based.  It's good enough to clearly make out
my condo complex, including the pool, and the image shows a
purple blob on the street that may be my car.  Amazing stuff, and free,
though it doesn't cover the whole US.




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Tue Oct 16 04:28:43 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 12:28:43 +0100
Subject: Kill Killfile
References: <080AFA58-C1E7-11D5-9C6B-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <3BCC19EB.DCE1179@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Tim May wrote:
> 
> On Monday, October 15, 2001, at 08:20 PM, Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> 
> > John Young cryptically wrote:
> >
> >> Any message with the word kill in it needs
> >> killfiling.
> >
> > How about if Tim just says, "euthanize"?
> 
> John Young's sudden squeamishness about What Needs to be Done
> is...typical.
> 
> He rants about CIA plots, he lists USG atrocities on his Cryptome site
> (kudos), he talks about the need for justice, but then he pulls back
> when someone points out the obvious implications of recent events. Kind
> of like a steak lover realizing belatedly that his food comes from the
> killing of cattle.

Without taking sides in your little local dispute over there, surely the
better analogy would be an ox realising that his food comes from the
killers of cattle?


Fat systems programmer decides to refrain from half-a-dozen bad taste
jokes about anthrax, cattle & sheep. But points out that the news media
might have covered it better if someone had told them that anthrax is
endemic in the USA and millions of people may have been exposed to
enough to have antibodies. Also decides not to discuss the current
literature on viable but non-culturable ("VBNC") bacteria which
generally concludes that culture methods often don't give a very good
indication of contamination.  Googling for Rita Colwell and cholera
might be informative.



"How ya gonna keep 'em down on the farm, now that they've seen NY?"




From schear at lvcm.com  Tue Oct 16 12:37:14 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 12:37:14 -0700
Subject: STOPPING SIGNALS FROM SATELLITE TV PROVES DIFFICULT
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011016123613.03b98cf0@pop3.lvcm.com>


STOPPING SIGNALS FROM SATELLITE TV PROVES DIFFICULT
Issue: Television/Journalism

Last week, at the urging of the White House, the major television and cable
networks agreed not to run raw footage of Al Qaeda statements as they are
broadcast by the Al Jazeera network from Qatar, which appears to be Mr. bin
Laden's preferred conduit for communicating with the world. But because of
the privatization and deregulation of the international satellite business
in recent years, control of the nation's television signals is by no means
limited to the coterie of United States companies that the White House
turned to last week. In fact, the great majority of homes in the United
States have the option of receiving Al Jazeera directly using a satellite
dish antenna not much bigger than a pizza pan. For about four years, the
EchoStar Dish Network operation has been carrying Al Jazeera, in Arabic, as
a part of a premium tier of international channels. If any terrorists are in
the country waiting for televised word from Mr. bin Laden - with or without
hidden messages - last week's steps by the White House did next to nothing
to thwart them.

[SOURCE: New York Times, AUTHOR: Seth Schiesel]





From schear at lvcm.com  Tue Oct 16 12:43:11 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 12:43:11 -0700
Subject: MOVES TO BLOCK INFORMATION FROM PUBLIC GO TOO FAR 
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011016124206.03b9a660@pop3.lvcm.com>


MOVES TO BLOCK INFORMATION FROM PUBLIC GO TOO FAR

Issue: Information Freedom
[Editorial] Since Sept. 11, the government has been eager to limit the
public's access to certain kinds of information. The USAToday's editorial
staff argues that "Americans are being asked to give up their rights to
information, with no evidence that it presents any real risk." They cite
examples of recent government efforts to control what the public sees, such
as President Bush's attempt to cut back the number of lawmakers who would
receive intelligence briefings, to eight of 535 members, and the
disappearance of information from some government Web sites. USAToday
suggests that these moves violate the very spirit of freedom that America is
fighting for. "They risk obliterating the checks on government decisions
that come when lawmakers and the general public know what the administration
is doing...If Americans are to continue supporting the war, it will be
crucial for them to know their enemy and know of their government's
successes and failures."

[SOURCE: USAToday, AUTHOR: ]


See Also:
CENSORSHIP MAKES SENSE
[SOURCE: USAToday, AUTHOR:]





From tcmay at got.net  Tue Oct 16 13:08:40 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 13:08:40 -0700
Subject: ChefPunks
In-Reply-To: <3BCC84CE.BCA85093@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <9787F9CE-C271-11D5-B48C-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Tuesday, October 16, 2001, at 12:04 PM, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote:

> ichudov at Algebra.Com (Igor Chudov) wrote :
>>
>> One thing I would like to buy is a pressure cooker.
>>
> I have found them to be of little use. Save some $, try a garage sale.
>

Different strokes. I use mine a fair amount.

It's a Kuhn-Rikon, recent generation, lots of safety features.

Cuts cooking time for some items by a factor of several--beans, for 
example.

Thoroughly cooks things like chicken and pork while keeping them juicy.

There are less expensive models from Mirro and others.

Yard sale machines are likely to be the very old, 1950s-60s generation 
that our mothers used (or your grandmothers, for the kids here).

>> Another is a kind of charger that charges water with CO2, to make 
>> homemade
>> fizzy water insteado f buying it at stores. In Russia these things 
>> were called
>> syphons. Any ideas?
>>
> Apparently they're called siphons here too :

Available in any kitchen store.

--Tim May, Corralitos, California
Quote of the Month: "It is said that there are no atheists in foxholes; 
perhaps there are no true libertarians in times of terrorist attacks." 
--Cathy Young, "Reason Magazine," both enemies of liberty.




From auto301094 at hushmail.com  Tue Oct 16 13:14:34 2001
From: auto301094 at hushmail.com (auto301094 at hushmail.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 13:14:34 -0700
Subject: BBC report: Mata Hari "was framed"; possible new trial
Message-ID: <200110162014.f9GKEYO28793@mailserver1.hushmail.com>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp
Size: 4696 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From ichudov at Algebra.COM  Tue Oct 16 11:18:23 2001
From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 13:18:23 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: stupid anthrax q: would microwaving your snail mail help?
In-Reply-To: <20011016173358.A25638@hotpost.dk> from "Morten Liebach" at Oct 16, 2001 05:33:58 PM
Message-ID: <200110161818.f9GIING26186@manifold.algebra.com>


One thing I would like to buy is a pressure cooker.

Another is a kind of charger that charges water with CO2, to make homemade
fizzy water insteado f buying it at stores. In Russia these things were called
syphons. Any ideas?

igor

Morten Liebach wrote:
> 
> 
> On 16, Oct, 2001 at 09:22:19AM -0500, Igor Chudov wrote:
> > My guess would be that microwaving them will not help. Microwaves heat
> > up moist things by starting electric currents in them. Anthrax spores
> > are not moist and probably will not even heat up.
> 
> Right.
> 
> > Try your regular stove. Set it to, say, 400 degrees and pray that the papers
> > will remain legible. I'd prbobably be more likely to be attacked by meteorites
> > or abducted by aliens than be anthraxed via mail, but *if* I had to
> > sterilize mail,
> > I would use a stove.
> 
> In labs an autoclave is used to sterilize everything.
> 
> Autoclaves are basically pressure cookers, high pressure steam at 121
> deg. Celsius and ~2 Bar kill everything.
> 
> The effectivity of autoclaves is tested with spores from Bacillus
> stearothermophilus, which is some of the most resistant there is, and I
> suspect B. anthracium is quite heat resistant too, as most other Bacillus
> species.
> 
> But I'd use a pressure cooker to kill the spores if I had the need (and
> didn't have an autoclave, that is).
> The paper probably wouldn't fall apart, though the ink might not be
> readable after having been wet.
> 
> 
> These things I know from having worked as a lab technician in a
> microbiological lab once.
> 
> Have a nice day
> 
> 	Morten
> 
> -- 
> Morten Liebach 
> PGP-key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xD796A4EB
> https://pc89225.stofanet.dk/ || http://pc89225.stofanet.dk/
> 



	- Igor.




From wolf at priori.net  Tue Oct 16 14:45:36 2001
From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 14:45:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Internation Patent Law doesn't apply to USG?
Message-ID: 


U.S. Sen. Charles Schumer, D- New York, said Tuesday a generic version of
ciproflaxin, the antibiotic used to treat anthrax, should be made
available immediately for government use even though German drugmaker
BayerAG holds the patent for the drug.

http://www.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/conditions/10/16/anthrax/
http://money.cnn.com/2001/10/16/news/generic_cipro/

--

Hmmm.


-MW-




From proff at iq.org  Mon Oct 15 22:03:46 2001
From: proff at iq.org (Julian Assange)
Date: 16 Oct 2001 15:03:46 +1000
Subject: mirror volunteers needed
Message-ID: 


If you are brave and have a unix account/machine with approximately
2Gig of disk free, we need you.

--
 Julian Assange        |If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people
                       |together to collect wood or assign them tasks and
 proff at iq.org          |work, but rather teach them to long for the endless
 proff at gnu.ai.mit.edu  |immensity of the sea. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery




From tcmay at got.net  Tue Oct 16 15:10:22 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 15:10:22 -0700
Subject: Internation Patent Law doesn't apply to USG?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <97BD643A-C282-11D5-B48C-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Tuesday, October 16, 2001, at 02:45 PM, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote:

> U.S. Sen. Charles Schumer, D- New York, said Tuesday a generic version 
> of
> ciproflaxin, the antibiotic used to treat anthrax, should be made
> available immediately for government use even though German drugmaker
> BayerAG holds the patent for the drug.
>
> http://www.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/conditions/10/16/anthrax/
> http://money.cnn.com/2001/10/16/news/generic_cipro/

What else would anyone expect?

The U.S. is a kleptocracy, a shakedown state. It operates by stealing 
money from citizen-units and then giving that money to welfare breeders 
and layabouts and corrupt contractors. Basket-case economies like Israel 
get $5000 million a year, with Egypt getting the same amount as a bribe.

As for the grab of Bayer's property, what can Germany do about it?

However, it looks like Bayer is getting the message from this threat to 
simply steal Cipro: they have committed to supplying enough Cipro to Our 
Federal Government to treat 10 million sheeple.

(Why isn't this a matter for individuals to arrange for themselves, 
through some form of insurance? Because Hillary is getting her fondest 
wish: socialized medicine, via a State of Emergency.)


--Tim May, Occupied America
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety 
deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759.




From zem at zip.com.au  Mon Oct 15 22:20:00 2001
From: zem at zip.com.au (Alex Shiels)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 15:20:00 +1000 (EST)
Subject: mirror volunteers needed
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On 16 Oct 2001, Julian Assange wrote:

> If you are brave and have a unix account/machine with approximately
> 2Gig of disk free, we need you.

I have a machine with 2 gig (or thereabouts), located in Australia.
Bandwidth is low (64k ISDN) but the machine is available.

If high bandwidth is a necessity I know someone who might be able to help
depending on the content.


-- 
mailto:zem at zip.com.au F289 2BDB 1DA0 F4C4 DC87 EC36 B2E3 4E75 C853 FD93
http://zem.squidly.org/ "I'm invisible, I'm invisible, I'm invisible.."




From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Oct 16 13:45:59 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 15:45:59 -0500
Subject: RIAA: We'll smother song swappers
Message-ID: <3BCC9C87.7D928815@ssz.com>


http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/zd/20011016/tc/riaa_we_ll_smother_song_swappers_1.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Oct 16 13:49:20 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 15:49:20 -0500
Subject: [cio.com] Let's Stop Wasting $78 Billion a Year
Message-ID: <3BCC9D50.322301E2@ssz.com>


http://www.cio.com/archive/101501/wasting_content.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From gbroiles at well.com  Tue Oct 16 16:04:40 2001
From: gbroiles at well.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 16:04:40 -0700
Subject: Martial law supposedly implemented in the US
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3BCBF034.24388.39EA15@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011016155542.045a0ba0@bivens.parrhesia.com>


At 05:45 PM 10/16/2001 -0500, measl at mfn.org wrote:
>On Tue, 16 Oct 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote:
>
> > According to Pravda, the US is now under martial law
> >
> > http://english.pravda.ru/main/2001/10/08/17359.html
>
>For all intents and purposes, we are.

Well, no. "Martial law" usually implies that civil authorities have been 
replaced or overriden by military command, and that civilian law is not in 
effect, having been replaced by orders from a military command structure; 
and it's usually imposed on formerly hostile territory, or territories 
considered very close to conflict spatially or temporally.

That has not happened in the US, except arguably at the ground zero site, 
and even there it sounds like it's civilian police officers and elected 
officials, not military officers, who are setting policy.

Unconstitutional, in many cases? I think so. Martial law? No, that's not 
accurate. That term has historically meant a lot more that some National 
Guard troops in the airports.


--
Greg Broiles
gbroiles at well.com
"We have found and closed the thing you watch us with." -- New Delhi street kids




From mix at mix2.hyperreal.pl  Tue Oct 16 07:10:38 2001
From: mix at mix2.hyperreal.pl (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 16:10:38 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: It does not really matter WHO did it ...
Message-ID: <642d567bd00f54287ee2ed771c544e18@mix2.hyperreal.pl>


... but WHO profits.




Reichstag Fire

They who will not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Recent
events raise ghosts of the past.

January 30, 1933

Weimar Republic President Paul von Hindenburg appoints Adolph Hitler
Chancellor.

February 27, 1933

The German Parliament (Reichstag) burns down. A dazed Dutch Communist
named Marinus van der Lubbe is found at the scene and charged with
arson. [He is later found guilty and executed].

February 28, 1933

President Hindenburg and Chancellor Hitler invoke Article 48 of the
Weimar Constitution, which permits the suspension of civil liberties in
time of national emergency. This Decree of the Reich President for the
Protection of the People and State abrogates the following
constitutional protections:

- Free expression of opinion 
- Freedom of the press 
- Right of assembly and association 
- Right to privacy of postal and electronic communications 
- Protection against unlawful searches and seizures 
- Individual property rights 
- States' right of self-government 

A supplemental decree creates the SA (Storm Troops) and SS (Special
Security) Federal police agencies.

Who Did It?

Historians do not agree on who is actually responsible for the Reichstag
Fire: van der Lubbe acting alone -- a Communist plot -- or the Nazis
themselves in order to create an incident. Writers such as Klaus P.
Fischer feel that most likely the Nazis were involved.

But regardless of who actually planned and executed the fire, it is
clear that the Nazis immediately took advantage of the situation in
order to advance their cause at the expense of civil rights. The Decree
enabled the Nazis to ruthlessly suppress opposition in the upcoming
election.

March 5, 1933

National elections give Nazis 44% plurality in the Reichstag. Herman
Gvring [who later played a central role in the Nazi government and war
effort] declares that there is no further need for State governments.

Over the next few weeks, each of the lawful Weimar State governments
falls to the same ruse:

- Local Nazi organizations instigate disorder; 
- The disorder is quelled by replacing the elected state government by
appointed Nazi Reich Commissioners. 

March 24, 1933

The Reichstag passes the Law for Terminating the Suffering of People and
Nation , also known as the Enabling Law , essentially granting Adolph
Hitler dictatorial power.

ANALYSIS

The events in 1933 can be summarized as follows:

While it is not clear whether the Nazis intentionally set the Reichstag
fire in order to create a national crisis, or whether the Nazis simply
were opportunistic, the event was used as justification for a sharp
curtailment in constitutionally guaranteed civil liberties. The Nazis
took advantage of the additional Federal police powers to suppress
opponents. It is clear that in other situations, the Nazis did use the
tactic of creating a "law and order" crisis so that they could provide a
solution which further eroded civil liberties and entrenched their
power. The right-wing Nazis and the left-wing communists were cut from
the same cloth -- the point is not that the far right destroyed civil
rights. Rather, the point is that a democracy can be destroyed by
creating a law-and-order crisis and offering as a 'solution' the
abdication of civil liberties and state's rights to a powerful but
unaccountable central authority.

http://www.weyrich.com/political_issues/reichstag_fire.html




From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Tue Oct 16 16:23:02 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 16:23:02 -0700
Subject: Internation Patent Law doesn't apply to USG?
In-Reply-To: ; from wolf@priori.net on Tue, Oct 16, 2001 at 02:45:36PM -0700
References: 
Message-ID: <20011016162301.B8459@navel.introspect>


on Tue, Oct 16, 2001 at 02:45:36PM -0700, Meyer Wolfsheim (wolf at priori.net)
wrote:
> U.S. Sen. Charles Schumer, D- New York, said Tuesday a generic version of
> ciproflaxin, the antibiotic used to treat anthrax, should be made
> available immediately for government use even though German drugmaker
> BayerAG holds the patent for the drug.
>
> http://www.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/conditions/10/16/anthrax/
> http://money.cnn.com/2001/10/16/news/generic_cipro/

To the best of my knowledge, patent law is not uniform internationally,
certainly not to the extent copyright law is.  In the US, both patent
and copyright are powers granted to, not obligations required of,
Congress.  There is prior precedent for lifting patent protections,
usually as anti-trust settlements.

Peace.

--
Karsten M. Self        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?             Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]




From tcmay at got.net  Tue Oct 16 16:34:34 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 16:34:34 -0700
Subject: Martial law supposedly implemented in the US
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011016155542.045a0ba0@bivens.parrhesia.com>
Message-ID: <5B4EB71E-C28E-11D5-B48C-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Tuesday, October 16, 2001, at 04:04 PM, Greg Broiles wrote:

> At 05:45 PM 10/16/2001 -0500, measl at mfn.org wrote:
>> On Tue, 16 Oct 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote:
>>
>> > According to Pravda, the US is now under martial law
>> >
>> > http://english.pravda.ru/main/2001/10/08/17359.html
>>
>> For all intents and purposes, we are.
>
> Well, no. "Martial law" usually implies that civil authorities have 
> been replaced or overriden by military command, and that civilian law 
> is not in effect, having been replaced by orders from a military 
> command structure; and it's usually imposed on formerly hostile 
> territory, or territories considered very close to conflict spatially 
> or temporally.
>
> That has not happened in the US, except arguably at the ground zero 
> site, and even there it sounds like it's civilian police officers and 
> elected officials, not military officers, who are setting policy.
>
> Unconstitutional, in many cases? I think so. Martial law? No, that's 
> not accurate. That term has historically meant a lot more that some 
> National Guard troops in the airports.

Agreed, not martial law.

However, America operates on the ratchet principle: the tightening of 
liberties _always_ proceeds in the forward direction. Each new crisis, 
each new emergency order, each new federal agency, each new 
law...everything cranks the ratchet wheel toward less liberty.

And even our supposed "voices of reason," like "Reason," cough, cough, 
are publishing crap about how untappable conversation is "scary." The 
"Wall Street Journal" has Dorothy Rabinowitz and that pansy Indian guy 
calling for "national ID cards."

The issue of whether these measures will make us "safe" is neither 
interesting nor germane. The Constitution used to be clear on issues 
like habeas corpus, fourth amendment protections, and the inability of 
the government to tell us how we can communicate. No longer.

As Pravda said, the U.S. is (effectively) under martial law. It's just 
that our colonels and generals are politicians in D.C. Notice how 
"states rights" has vanished as an issue? Someone finds white talcum 
powder and the FBI and FEMA are called in. Everything is being 
federalized.

And former libertarians, in name, are now leading the charge toward 
statism. I say we kill them all.

--Tim May, Occupied America
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety 
deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759.




From office at tangfeng.org  Tue Oct 16 01:50:35 2001
From: office at tangfeng.org (office at tangfeng.org)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 16:50:35 +0800
Subject: Beijing Tangfeng Culture Exchange Centre
Message-ID: <200110160851.BAA17082@toad.com>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 3590 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From gbroiles at well.com  Tue Oct 16 17:02:43 2001
From: gbroiles at well.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 17:02:43 -0700
Subject: Martial law supposedly implemented in the US
In-Reply-To: <5B4EB71E-C28E-11D5-B48C-0050E439C473@got.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011016155542.045a0ba0@bivens.parrhesia.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011016165321.03831130@bivens.parrhesia.com>


At 04:34 PM 10/16/2001 -0700, Tim May wrote:

>As Pravda said, the U.S. is (effectively) under martial law. It's just 
>that our colonels and generals are politicians in D.C. Notice how "states 
>rights" has vanished as an issue? Someone finds white talcum powder and 
>the FBI and FEMA are called in. Everything is being federalized.

If Pravda had written "police state", I wouldn't disagree. Perhaps 
something was lost in the translation.

I'm surprised that Guiliani's early proposal that elections be postponed 
and that he remain in charge of NYC for some indeterminate period of time 
hasn't aroused more anger - or his abandoned suggestion that the term limit 
rules he backed be modified or eliminated to allow him to stay in power - 
or his use of the fear of terrorism to enact (by fiat, apparently) other 
rules he thinks generally beneficial, e.g., special benefits for carpoolers 
and special restrictions on single-occupant private motor vehicles. That 
doesn't have shit to do with security, but lots to do with taking advantage 
of the chaos and flux to implement his own vision of society unhindered by 
anything as old-school as voting or written laws.

And Ashcroft's no different - proposing that we point a new warrantless 
Internet-sized information hose at the FBI when they seem to have trouble 
bothering to test evidence they're handed more or less on a silver platter 
where it should be clear that lives are at stake.

It's when the shit hits the fan that you find out what people are really 
made of and what they really think, instead of the marketing crap made 
available during nicer times.


--
Greg Broiles
gbroiles at well.com
"We have found and closed the thing you watch us with." -- New Delhi street kids




From Smartlink2 at aol.com  Tue Oct 16 14:03:35 2001
From: Smartlink2 at aol.com (Smartlink2 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 17:03:35 EDT
Subject: How do I?
Message-ID: 


Hey, I had a question. If I were interested in learning more about hacking 
bank computers, would you know where I could get that information, or perhaps 
you would be able to help me. Anyways you can write back to me at this 
address. Thanks

Shiva




From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Tue Oct 16 17:17:14 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 17:17:14 -0700
Subject: Martial law supposedly implemented in the US
In-Reply-To: <5B4EB71E-C28E-11D5-B48C-0050E439C473@got.net>; from
  tcmay@got.net on Tue, Oct 16, 2001 at 04:34:34PM -0700
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011016155542.045a0ba0@bivens.parrhesia.com>
  <5B4EB71E-C28E-11D5-B48C-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <20011016171714.F5739@navel.introspect>


on Tue, Oct 16, 2001 at 04:34:34PM -0700, Tim May (tcmay at got.net) wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 16, 2001, at 04:04 PM, Greg Broiles wrote:
>
> > At 05:45 PM 10/16/2001 -0500, measl at mfn.org wrote:
> >> On Tue, 16 Oct 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote:
> >>
> >> > According to Pravda, the US is now under martial law
> >> >
> >> > http://english.pravda.ru/main/2001/10/08/17359.html
> >>
> >> For all intents and purposes, we are.
> >
> > Well, no. "Martial law" usually implies that civil authorities have
> > been replaced or overriden by military command, and that civilian law
> > is not in effect, having been replaced by orders from a military
> > command structure; and it's usually imposed on formerly hostile
> > territory, or territories considered very close to conflict spatially
> > or temporally.
> >
> > That has not happened in the US, except arguably at the ground zero
> > site, and even there it sounds like it's civilian police officers and
> > elected officials, not military officers, who are setting policy.

> Agreed, not martial law.
>
> However, America operates on the ratchet principle: the tightening of
> liberties _always_ proceeds in the forward direction. Each new crisis,
> each new emergency order, each new federal agency, each new
> law...everything cranks the ratchet wheel toward less liberty.

So the 1960s-70s really *was* a time warp.

I tend to see things as more cyclycal myself.

Peace.

--
Karsten M. Self        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?             Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]




From morten at hotpost.dk  Tue Oct 16 08:33:58 2001
From: morten at hotpost.dk (Morten Liebach)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 17:33:58 +0200
Subject: stupid anthrax q: would microwaving your snail mail help?
In-Reply-To: <200110161422.f9GEMKB19814@manifold.algebra.com>
References: <3BC9F164.4BE4C9EE@sunder.net> <200110161422.f9GEMKB19814@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <20011016173358.A25638@hotpost.dk>


On 16, Oct, 2001 at 09:22:19AM -0500, Igor Chudov wrote:
> My guess would be that microwaving them will not help. Microwaves heat
> up moist things by starting electric currents in them. Anthrax spores
> are not moist and probably will not even heat up.

Right.

> Try your regular stove. Set it to, say, 400 degrees and pray that the papers
> will remain legible. I'd prbobably be more likely to be attacked by meteorites
> or abducted by aliens than be anthraxed via mail, but *if* I had to
> sterilize mail,
> I would use a stove.

In labs an autoclave is used to sterilize everything.

Autoclaves are basically pressure cookers, high pressure steam at 121
deg. Celsius and ~2 Bar kill everything.

The effectivity of autoclaves is tested with spores from Bacillus
stearothermophilus, which is some of the most resistant there is, and I
suspect B. anthracium is quite heat resistant too, as most other Bacillus
species.

But I'd use a pressure cooker to kill the spores if I had the need (and
didn't have an autoclave, that is).
The paper probably wouldn't fall apart, though the ink might not be
readable after having been wet.


These things I know from having worked as a lab technician in a
microbiological lab once.

Have a nice day

	Morten

-- 
Morten Liebach 
PGP-key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xD796A4EB
https://pc89225.stofanet.dk/ || http://pc89225.stofanet.dk/




From measl at mfn.org  Tue Oct 16 15:45:14 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 17:45:14 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Martial law supposedly implemented in the US
In-Reply-To: <3BCBF034.24388.39EA15@localhost>
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 16 Oct 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote:

> According to Pravda, the US is now under martial law
> 
> http://english.pravda.ru/main/2001/10/08/17359.html

For all intents and purposes, we are.

> Now I know where Chomsky gets his US news from.

It is truly a sad day in the history of the world when Pravda produces
more honest reporting than the amerikan press...

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Oct 16 15:48:45 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 17:48:45 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: NIST Key Mgmt. Workshop Documents (fwd)
Message-ID: 



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 15:34:53 -0500
From: Elaine Barker 
To: cryptography at wasabisystems.com
Subject: NIST Key Mgmt. Workshop Documents

Both the key schemes document and the key management guideline for the NIST 
key management workshop are now available 
at  http://csrc.nist.gov/encryption/kms/workshop2-page.html. Please 
register by October 30 by email,  FAX or phone; see the web page for 
details. If unable to attend, a report of the workshop will be available on 
the web site shortly afterward, as well as any slide presentations.

If you prefer not to receive further emails on NIST cryptographic 
activities, please let me know. Thanks.

Elaine Barker
National Institute of Standards and Technology
100 Bureau Dr., Stop 8930
Gaithersburg, MD 20899-8930
Phone: 301-975-2911
Fax: 301-948-1233
Email: ebarker at nist.gov



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From tcmay at got.net  Tue Oct 16 17:50:35 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 17:50:35 -0700
Subject: Martial law supposedly implemented in the US
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011016165321.03831130@bivens.parrhesia.com>
Message-ID: 


On Tuesday, October 16, 2001, at 05:02 PM, Greg Broiles wrote:
>
> It's when the shit hits the fan that you find out what people are 
> really made of and what they really think, instead of the marketing 
> crap made available during nicer times.

Amen.

The "rush to statism" that some authors at Reason, The Wall Street 
Journal, Wired, and all of the other Usual Suspects have engaged in 
should not be forgotten.

What happened in New York City was horrible for the targets, but so are 
a lot of things. Suspending civil liberties, as tens of millions of 
Americans are clamoring to have done, is despicable.

"I want to show that I am a patriot. I vote that we allow our police to 
enter our homes whenever they want to look through our diaries and 
letters...I have nothing to hide!"

This is turning out to be a useful exercise. When it is over, sort of, 
we will know better who our enemies are.


--Tim May, Corralitos, California
Quote of the Month: "It is said that there are no atheists in foxholes; 
perhaps there are no true libertarians in times of terrorist attacks." 
--Cathy Young, "Reason Magazine," both enemies of liberty.




From measl at mfn.org  Tue Oct 16 15:52:51 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 17:52:51 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: NSA Comints Saudi Pigs
In-Reply-To: <200110161608.MAA27953@hall.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 16 Oct 2001, John Young wrote:

> Sy Hersh's report on NSA echeloning Royal Saudi pigs:
> 
>   http://www.newyorker.com/FACT/?011022fa_FACT1

Excerpt:

	...The intercepts depict a regime increasingly corrupt,
     alienated from the country's religious rank and file, and so 
     weakened and frightened that it has brokered its future by
     channelling hundreds of millions of dollars in what amounts 
     to protection money to fundamentalist groups that wish to 
     overthrow it.

Wow!  This sounds *just* like the USG!

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Oct 16 16:06:27 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 18:06:27 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: US/China & 9/11 (fwd)
Message-ID: 



Frontline on PBS

Thursday evening of this week.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Oct 16 16:06:41 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 18:06:41 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: FIPR Release 16/10/2001: EMERGENCY POWERS ALLOW MASS-SURVEILLANCE FOR NON-TERRORIST INVESTIGATIONS  (fwd)
Message-ID: 



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 23:26:02 +0100
From: Caspar Bowden 
To: cryptography at wasabisystems.com, cyber-rights-UK at mail.cyber-rights.org
Subject: FIPR Release 16/10/2001: EMERGENCY POWERS ALLOW MASS-SURVEILLANCE FOR NON-TERRORIST INVESTIGATIONS 

FIPR Press release: FOR IMMEDIATE USE : 16th October 2001

EMERGENCY POWERS ALLOW MASS-SURVEILLANCE FOR NON-TERRORIST
INVESTIGATIONS
========================================================================

*) Home Office undecided whether ISP data retention to be voluntary or
compulsory 

*) Data revealing who you talk to, what you read, where you are,
collected for "national security"

*) Data can be trawled for public order, minor crimes, tax, health and
safety

*) E-Commerce to bear open-ended storage and data-protection compliance
costs

========================================================================


As part of an emergency package of anti-terrorism measures, Home
Secretary David Blunkett announced yesterday (Note 3) that Internet
Service Providers would be "enabled" to retain logs detailing the online
activity of their customers (but NOT the contents of communications).

Data protection legislation (Note 4) currently protects electronic
privacy by prohibiting blanket storage by ISPs of logs recording such
details as websites browsed, To and From addresses of e-mails, and which
'newsgroup' articles are read by a subscriber. Other "communications
data", such as the telephone number used to dial-up the Internet, may be
kept so long as it is relevant to billing or fraud control.

Although Mr.Blunkett's use of the word "enable" (rather than "require")
implied that compliance will be at the ISP's discretion, the lead
official told FIPR that retention may be made compulsory, enforced
through civil law. The same source said a ministerial certificate will
assert "national security" exemptions (Note 5) so that ISPs and
telephone companies will not be in breach of European Directives. The
government will only specify later exactly what data may be collected
and for how long in a Code of Practice in consultation with ISPs. 

No new legislation is necessary for police and intelligence agencies to
collect the data once it is recorded by ISPs and telephone companies. 
The Regulation of Investigatory Powers (RIP) Act 2000 (Note 5) allows
records to be obtained for broad purposes including tax, health and
safety, public order offences and minor crime. Although "communications
data" provides a complete map of private life, revealing who you talk
to, what you read, and where you go, the authorities can rubber-stamp
compilation and trawling of large and detailed databases. In contrast,
inspection of the contents of a single e-mail requires a warrant from a
Secretary of State, and a search for documents requires a court order.

Bulk requests can be made on groups or the history of an individual and
kept by police and intelligence agencies indefinitely under data
protection exemptions. This includes the exact co-ordinates of your
geographic location - which 3rd-generation mobiles produce continuously
whilst the phone is switched on.

Computerised 'traffic analysis' (tracing links between individuals) is a
powerful new form of mass-surveillance, but is only efficient at keeping
tabs on the law-abiding. Professional terrorists know how to cover their
tracks - for example throw-away use of pre-paid mobile phones. Reports
of the modus operandi of the September 11th terrorists indicate they
used Web-based e-mail from public terminals. Clearly it is not
persuasive to argue for privacy to be sacrificed in the name of fighting
terrorism if the measures would not in fact be effective.

A leaked report from the National Criminal Intelligence Service last
year revealed that police and security agencies are nevertheless
pressing for a mandatory data retention law to warehouse the traffic
data of the entire population for several years
(http://cryptome.org/ncis-carnivore.htm). Blunkett's proposals amount to
blanket 'dataveillance' for non-terrorist investigations, using the the
tragic events of Sep 11 as justification.

Providers of e-commerce authentication services could be affected as
well as ISPs and telcos. Anyone offering "provision of access to, and of
facilities for making use of...the transmission of communications" [RIP
S.22(4) & S.1 defs] could face extra costs of providing suitable storage
devices and media, and full compliance with data protection legislation.


Quotes
======

Caspar Bowden, director of Internet think-tank FIPR (Foundation for
Information Policy Research) commented:

"Sensitive data revealing what you read, where you are, and who you talk
to online could be collected in the name of national security. But
Mr.Blunkett intends to allow access to this data for purposes nothing to
do with fighting terrorism. Minor crimes, public order and tax offences,
attendance at demonstrations, even 'health and safety' will be
legitimate reasons to siphon sensitive details of private life into
government databases to be retained indefinitely. This would be in
flagrant breach of the first and second Data Protection Principles."
(Note 6)

Contact for enquiries: 

Caspar Bowden
Foundation for Information Policy Research 
www.fipr.org 
cb at fipr.org
+44(0)20 7354 2333


Notes for editors
-----------------

1. The Foundation for Information Policy Research (www.fipr.org), is a
non-profit think-tank for Internet policy, governed by an independent
Board of Trustees with an Advisory Council of experts.

2. FIPR's analysis of the RIP Act (www.fipr.org/rip) stimulated media
debate, and led to amendments ensuring that people who lose decryption
keys or forget passwords are presumed innocent until proven guilty, and
prohibiting detailed surveillance of web browsing without a full
warrant.

3. Home Office Press Release 15/10/2001: "BLUNKETT OUTLINES FURTHER
ANTI-TERRORIST MEASURES"
(http://wood.ccta.gov.uk/homeoffice/hopress.nsf/50e2456405b67f7d802566b3
006819dc/2a5fc6811dec4c7180256ae6004fa4d3?OpenDocument)

3. The Telecommunications Data Protection Directive 1996, implemented in
UK law as SI 2093 (1999). The Office of the Information Commissioner
(contact Iain Bourne) has stated that ISP blanket (i.e. for all
subscribers) logging and retention of online Internet activity is
prohibited. Logging of telephone numbers is permitted whilst relevant
for billing or fraud control.

4. Section 32. of SI 2093 allows a certificate signed by a Minister of
the Crown to over-ride the prohibition on blanket data retention for
National Security purposes
(http://www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si1999/19992093.htm)

5. Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000, Part.1 Chapter.2,
Section 22 (http://www.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--c.htm#22). This
Part is not yet in force and the relevant Code of Practice is open for
consultation until November 2nd
(http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/ripa/consultintro.htm)

6. Data Protection Act 1998, Schedule 1,
(http://www.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts1998/80029--l.htm#sch1)




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From keyser-soze at hushmail.com  Tue Oct 16 18:33:17 2001
From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 18:33:17 -0700
Subject: "Assassination Politics" federal prosecutor assassinated 
Message-ID: <200110170133.f9H1XHi69607@mailserver1c.hushmail.com>


>Seattle Prosecutor Assassinated

>10/12. Thomas Wales, an Assistant U.S. Attorney for the Western District of
Washington in Seattle, died as a result of gunshot wounds inflicted on
Thursday night, October 11. He was responsible for prosecuting major
business crimes and bank frauds. He was also the Executive Assistant U.S.
Attorney to former U.S. Attorney Katrina Pflaumer at the time of the
"Assassination Politics" prosecutions. The USAO obtained a conviction of
Carl Johnson for sending threatening e-mail messages to federal judges and
others. Specifically, Johnson was convicted of one count of retaliating
against a judicial officer, one count of obstructing justice by making a
death threat against a judicial officer, and two counts of transmitting
threatening communications. The first three counts pertained to death
threats against federal judges. The fourth count pertained to a death threat
sent to Bill Gates. 

Tim always said AP was a long shot.  I agree.  Probably an unsatisified "client" settling an old account.




From fogstorm at mac.com  Tue Oct 16 18:34:51 2001
From: fogstorm at mac.com (FogStorm)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 18:34:51 -0700
Subject: Newsweek Testing For Anthrax
Message-ID: <200110170135.f9H1Z3208336@smtp-out.mac.com>


http://www.mediaweek.com/mediaweek/daily_news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=
1080845

New York City health officials will test Newsweek's photo department and 
mailrooms for anthrax today, and parts of the newsweekly's 15th floor 
offices were sealed in midtown Manhattan, after an unidentified photo 
staffer reported flu-like symptoms, a Newsweek spokesman said.

Newsweek execs contacted city officials Monday night after being 
notified by the employee, who weeks ago opened a suspicious package.

A spokesman for nearby Time Inc., publisher of Time and People, said no 
suspicious illnesses have been reported at the Time & Life Building.




From measl at mfn.org  Tue Oct 16 16:44:25 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 18:44:25 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Who represents the detained? Nobody...
In-Reply-To: <200110160039.RAA16992@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 15 Oct 2001, Anonymous wrote:

> >"In a high-security wing of Manhattan's Metropolitan Correctional Center, 
> >an unknown number of men with Middle Eastern names are being held in 
> >solitary confinement on the ninth floor, locked in 8- by 10-foot cells with 
> >little more than cots, thin blankets and, if they request it, copies of the 
> >Koran. Every two hours, guards roust them to conduct a head count. They 
> >have no contact with each other or their families and limited access to 
> >their lawyers. 
> 
> 5000 people went through a 1000-degree meat grinder
> on 9/11 without an opportunity for any due process, 
> and don't fucking forget it.

Yeah, and it's shit like _this_ that made it *inevitable*.

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From measl at mfn.org  Tue Oct 16 16:48:46 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 18:48:46 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Who represents the detained? Nobody...
In-Reply-To: <731F1F24-C1D3-11D5-9C6B-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 15 Oct 2001, Tim May wrote:

> The Constitution applies at _all_ times. It is not something that is 
> only for nice, calm situations.

Really?  What country are _you_ living in? ;-)

> The Bill of Rights does not say that the various parts of the Bill of 
> Rights are suspendable when someone decides there is some reason to.

Correct.  That is a "power" reserved for LEAs and other vermin.
 
> This means the USA Bill, with its suspension of big chunks of the Fourth 
> Amendment, is ipso facto unconstitutional.

And you can bet your ass the supreme court could care less...
 
> My belief is that every Congresscritter who voted to pass this USA Bill 
> should be tried and executed.

Amen.
 
> As for the 600 "Arabic-looking" men (maybe a few women, I don't know) 
> being held without charges being filed in a timely way, I'll chortle if 
> even 10 of them become vengeance-seekers in the next 10 years.
> 
> Someone held unjustly, without charges being filed, is morally obliged 
> to kill his oppressors.

Again, A-Fucking-Men!

> --Tim May, Citizen-unit of of the once free United States
> " The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood 
> of patriots & tyrants. "--Thomas Jefferson, 1787

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 18:59:01 PDT
Subject: Free Trial Offer From B4UTrade Inside!
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From schear at lvcm.com  Tue Oct 16 19:36:41 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 19:36:41 -0700
Subject: The "traitor" fires back
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011016193156.03b9f2d0@pop3.lvcm.com>


{ Another example how dissent is being labeled as "unpatriotic". Its very 
scary as it seems that most people, particularly in government and the 
media have forgotten that freedom of speech, different views and opinions 
are supposed to be the foundation of democracy }



The "traitor" fires back Denounced as a fifth columnist by the right,
Susan Sontag blasts America's cowlike media and scaremongering leaders
-- and says she fears that another terror attack could turn the
U.S. into a police state.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
By David Talbot
Oct. 16, 2001 | Writer Susan Sontag has produced many texts during her
four-decade career, including historical novels and reflections on
cancer, photography and the war in Bosnia. But it was a brief essay,
less than 1,000 words long, in the Sept. 24 issue of the New Yorker
that created the biggest uproar of her life. In the piece, which she
wrote shortly after the terror attacks of Sept. 11, Sontag dissected
the political and media blather that poured out of the television in
the hours after the explosions of violence. After subjecting herself
to what she calls "an overdose of CNN," Sontag reacted with a coldly
furious burst of analysis, savaging political leaders and media
mandarins for trying to convince the country that everything was OK,
that our attackers were simply cowards, and that our childlike view of
the world need not be disturbed.

As if to prove her point, a furious chorus of sharp-tongued pundits
immediately descended on Sontag, outraged that she had broken from the
ranks of the soothingly platitudinous. She was called an
"America-hater," a "moral idiot," a "traitor" who deserved to be
driven into "the wilderness," never more to be heard. The bellicose
right predictably tried to lump her in with the usual left-wing peace
crusaders, whose programmed pacifism has sidelined them during the
current political debates. But this tarbrush doesn't stick. As a
thinker, Sontag is rigorously, sometimes abrasively, independent. She
has offended the left as often as the right (political terms, she
points out, that have become increasingly useless), alienating some
ideologues when she attacked communism as "fascism with a human face"
during the uprising of the Polish shipyard workers in the 1980s and
again during the U.S. bombing campaign against the Serbian
dictatorship, which she strongly supported.

Sontag, 68, remains characteristically unrepentant in the face of the
recent attacks. On Monday, she talked with Salon by phone from her
home in Manhattan, reflecting on the controversy, the Bush war effort
and the media's surrender to what she views as a national conformity
campaign.



What do you think of the Bush administration's efforts to control the
media, in particular its requests that the TV networks not show bin
Laden and al-Qaida's video statements?

Excuse me, but does anyone over the age of 6 really think that the way
Osama bin Laden has to communicate with his agents abroad is by posing
in that Flintstone set of his and pulling on his left earlobe instead
of his right to send secret signals? Now, I don't believe that
Condoleezza Rice and the rest of the administration really think
that. At least I hope to hell they don't. I assume they have another
reason for trying to stop the TV networks from showing bin Laden's
videotapes, which is they just don't want people to see his message,
whatever it is. They think, Why should we give him free publicity?
Something very primitive like that. Which is ridiculous, because of
course anyone online can see these tapes for themselves. Although I
see the BBC, our British cousins who are of course ever servile, are
discussing whether to broadcast the tapes. We can always count on the
Brits to fall in line.

Why has the media been so willing to go along with the White House's
censorship efforts?

Well, when people like me are being lambasted and excoriated for
saying very mild things, no wonder the media is cowed. Here's
something no one has commented on that I continue to puzzle over: Who
decided that no gruesome pictures of the World Trade Center site were
to be published anywhere? Now I don't think there was single directive
coming from anywhere. But I think there was an extraordinary
consensus, a kind of self-censorship by media executives who concluded
these images would be too demoralizing for the country. I think it's
rather interesting that could happen. There apparently has been only
one exception: one day the New York Daily News showed a severed
hand. But the photo appeared in only one edition and it was
immediately pulled. I think that degree of unanimity within the media
is pretty extraordinary.



What is your position on the war against terrorism? How should the
U.S. fight back?

My position is that I don't like throwing biscuits and peanut butter
and jam and napkins, little snack packages produced in a small city in
Texas, to Afghani citizens, so we can say, "Look, we're doing
something humanitarian." These wretched packages of food that are
grotesquely inadequate -- there's apparently enough food for a half
day's rations. And then the people run out to get them, into these
minefields. Afghanistan has more land mines per capita than any
country in the world. I don't like the way that humanitarianism is
once again being used in this unholy way as a pretext for war.

As woman, of course, I've always been appalled by the Taliban regime
and would dearly like to see them toppled. I was a public critic of
the regime long before the war started. But I've been told that the
Northern Alliance is absolutely no better when it comes to the issue
of women. The crimes against women in Afghanistan are just
unthinkable; there's never been anything like it in the history of the
world. So of course I would love to see that government overthrown and
something less appalling put in its place.

Do I think bombing is the way to do it? Of course I don't. It's not
for me to speculate on this, but there are all sorts of realpolitik
outcomes that one can imagine. Afghanistan in the end could become a
sort of dependency of Pakistan, which of course wouldn't please India
and China. They'd probably like a little country to annex
themselves. So how in the world you're going to dethrone the Taliban
without causing further trouble in that part of the world is a very
complicated question. And I'm sure bright and hard-nosed people in
Washington are genuinely puzzled about how to do it.
Do you really think it could be done without bombing?
Absolutely. But it's a complicated and long process -- and the United
States is not very experienced in these matters. The point is, as I
said in my New Yorker piece, there's a great disconnect between
reality and what people in government and the media are saying of the
reality. I have no doubt that there are real debates among military
and political leaders going on both here and elsewhere. But what is
being peddled to the public is a fairy tale. And the atmosphere of
intimidation is quite extraordinary.

And I think our protectors have been incredibly inept. In any other
country the top officials of the FBI would have resigned or been fired
by now. I mean, [key hijacking suspect] Mohammad Atta was on the FBI
surveillance list, but this was never communicated to the airlines.
The authorities are now responding to the anthrax scare -- to what I
think are 99 percent certain to be just domestic copycat crazies on
their own war path -- by spreading more fear. We have Vice President
Cheney saying, "Well, these people could be part of the same terrorist
network that produced Sept. 11." Well, excuse me, but we have no
reason to think that.



We also seem to be getting contradictory messages about Muslims in the
U.S. We're told that not all Islamic people are our enemy, but at the
same time there's a fairly wide dragnet, which some civil liberties
defenders have criticized as indiscriminate, aimed at rounding up
Islamic suspects.

Well, people are very scared and Americans are not used to being
scared. There's an American exceptionalism; we're supposed to be
exempt from the calamities and terrors and anxieties that beset other
countries. But now people here are scared and it's interesting how
fast they are moving in another direction. The feeling is, and I've
heard this from people, about Islamic taxi drivers and shopkeepers and
other people -- we really ought to deport all the Muslims. Sure
they're not all terrorists and some of it will be unfair, but after
all we have to protect ourselves. Racial and ethnic profiling is now
seen as common sense itself. I mean how could you not want that if
you're going to take an airplane and you don't want a fellow in a
turban and a beard to sit next to you?

What I live in fear of is there will be another terror attack -- not a
sick joke like the powder in the envelope, but something real that
takes more lives, that has the stamp of something more professional
and thought out. It could be another symbolically targeted building --
maybe not in New York this time, but in Chicago or some other
heartland city that scares the rest of the country. And then you could
get something like martial law here. Many Americans, who as I say are
so used to not being afraid, would willingly accede to great
abridgements of freedom. Because they're afraid.

You called the president "robotic" in your New Yorker essay. But the
New York Times, among other media observers, has editorialized that
Bush has shown a new "gravitas" since Sept. 11. Do you think the
president has grown more commanding since the terror attacks?

I saw that in the Times -- I love that, gravitas. Has Bush grown into
his role of president? No, I think he's acquired legitimacy since
Sept. 11, that's all -- I don't call that "growing" at all. I think
what we obviously have in Washington is some kind of regency, run
presumably by Cheney and Rumsfeld and maybe Powell, although Powell is
much more of an organization man than a real leader. It's all very
veiled. And Cheney has not been much seen lately -- is this because he
is ill? It's all very mysterious. I hate to see everything become so
opaque.




From proff at iq.org  Tue Oct 16 02:56:20 2001
From: proff at iq.org (Julian Assange)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 19:56:20 +1000 (EST)
Subject: mirror volunteers needed
In-Reply-To: <3BCBC379.F917222B@acmenet.net>
Message-ID: <20011016095620.EADAC259F0@suburbia.net>


> Julian Assange wrote:
> 
> > If you are brave and have a unix account/machine with approximately
> > 2Gig of disk free, we need you.
> 
> More details, please. Mainly the kind of material to be hosted. Holding
> 2GB of kiddie porn (horseman alert!) might be objectionable on moral
> grounds as well as legal grounds.

Documents and images. No kiddie porn, but there are still three
other horsemen to choose from. Absolutely legal for now, bar
retrospective legislation, but that won't stop the horse trainers
from pretending otherwise. Constitutionally protected in the US,
but that doesn't mean you won't cop flak from ISP higher-up and
other organisations regardless of where you live.

If you'd be happy to mirror cryptome.org, then you'd probably be
happy to mirror this material.

> What kind of traffic is expected, in terms of connections per hours and
> bytes per hour?

Depends on interest. We can use dns tricks to shape traffic to
reflect your resources.

> Why does it need to be a *NIX machine? Ease of remote access, security,
> active content, or the requirements of the mirroring software?

The anonymous push nature of the mirroring software. We can support
non-unix pull mirrors too, provided there are enough push mirrors
to feed from. The software could be ported to other operating
systems without too much difficulty, but that's another project.

> The mirror would presumably need a fixed IP address. Are there any other
> requirements?

An ability to create mail-aliases, gpg, perl5, and a good sense of humour :)

Cheers,
Julian.


--
 Julian Assange        |If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people
                       |together to collect wood or assign them tasks and
 proff at iq.org          |work, but rather teach them to long for the endless
 proff at gnu.ai.mit.edu  |immensity of the sea. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery




From jya at pipeline.com  Tue Oct 16 20:06:59 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 20:06:59 -0700
Subject: Martial law supposedly implemented in the US
In-Reply-To: <5B4EB71E-C28E-11D5-B48C-0050E439C473@got.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011016155542.045a0ba0@bivens.parrhesia.com>
Message-ID: <200110170013.UAA19304@smtp6.mindspring.com>


Ratchet indeed. Declan posted elsewhere a blurb from
a law journal which links the recent wahoo of a federal
prosecutor in the Western District of Washington to Carl
Johnson and "Assassination Politics." The article
cited three sources on the DoJ web site, two of which
do indeed allege CJ's implementation of AP, if not
directly then by god by wahooing, as does the law
journal. WWA is a hothouse for homeland wahoo.

Jessica Stern, a Harvard wahoo expert, who has
extensively interviewed Jim Bell but was never called
as a witness in his recent trial, is now disclosing to
inquiring journalists the contents of her interviews 
with homeland wahoos. Expect Jim, AP, CJ and
a few others to get ratcheted right smartly to meet
fervent demand for wahoo incrimination.

If you haven't euthanized everything you've got on
wahoo, think about it.




From ark102001 at yahoo.com  Tue Oct 16 17:16:35 2001
From: ark102001 at yahoo.com (ark102001 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 20:16:35 -0400
Subject: Making Over Half Million dollars every 4 to 5 Months From Home!
Message-ID: <200110170023.RAA11298@toad.com>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 20434 bytes
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URL: 

From jya at pipeline.com  Tue Oct 16 20:46:45 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 20:46:45 -0700
Subject: Safeweb on Anongo
Message-ID: <200110170052.UAA15139@smtp6.mindspring.com>


Safeweb has provided an explanation for why its
Anongo.com has a DoD IP address:

  http://cryptome.org/safeweb-anongo.htm

Other peculiarities of Anongo are not accounted
for.

The description in the same message of Safeweb's 
policy for storing users' surfing data and responding 
to subpoenas will likely raise eyebrows even higher 
than Anongo whereever that is.




From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Oct 16 19:52:35 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 21:52:35 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: The "traitor" fires back
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011016193156.03b9f2d0@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 16 Oct 2001, Steve Schear wrote:

> { Another example how dissent is being labeled as "unpatriotic". Its very 
> scary as it seems that most people, particularly in government and the 
> media have forgotten that freedom of speech, different views and opinions 
> are supposed to be the foundation of democracy }

...

> By David Talbot
> Oct. 16, 2001 | Writer Susan Sontag has produced many texts during her
> four-decade career, including historical novels and reflections on

...

> As woman, of course, I've always been appalled by the Taliban regime
> and would dearly like to see them toppled. I was a public critic of
> the regime long before the war started. But I've been told that the
> Northern Alliance is absolutely no better when it comes to the issue
> of women. The crimes against women in Afghanistan are just
> unthinkable; there's never been anything like it in the history of the
> world.

...


Don't know about unpatriotic but her sense of history and womens place in
it is clearly effected by her own political and philosophical agenda...

Never been anything like it indeed. More hand waving spin doctor bullshit.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk  Tue Oct 16 14:56:00 2001
From: steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk (Steve Mynott)
Date: 16 Oct 2001 21:56:00 +0000
Subject: mirror volunteers needed
In-Reply-To: proff@iq.org's message of "Tue, 16 Oct 2001 19:56:20 +1000
  (EST)"
References: <20011016095620.EADAC259F0@suburbia.net>
Message-ID: 


proff at iq.org (Julian Assange) writes:

> An ability to create mail-aliases, gpg, perl5, and a good sense of humour :)

What and where is the source?

-- 
1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk
    
    its ok the problem solved itself




From jesioner at yahoo.com  Tue Oct 16 18:10:13 2001
From: jesioner at yahoo.com (jesioner at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 22:10:13 -0300
Subject: hi there... 
Message-ID: <200110170110.WAA03364@mail.yahoo.com>



Hi my name is Oneseeking, 

I saw your profile, but where is your picture? I am very new to this internet dating thing, but some of my friends have had success so I decided to give it a try. I'm a little shy and unfortunate when it comes to meeting someone sincere and honest in "real life", so I'm trying to use internet to "find my love".

If you are interested you can view my profile at 

http://www.matchclick.com/?aff=307

I am on there 2-3 times a week, I hope to hear from you soon.

OneSeeking








p.s if you are not who i thought you are, just delete this message and sorry for any trouble




From LinearSA at aol.com  Tue Oct 16 22:30:11 2001
From: LinearSA at aol.com (Linear Corporation)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 22:30:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Web Page - Gate Controlers - Wirless Security Equipment
Message-ID: <200110170530.WAA11665@pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net>



AFAB International, Inc. - AFAB Seguridad Electronica
Fort Lauderdale, Florida - Lima, Peru
954.776.6864                  511.915.1065
AFABIntl at netdor.net       AFAB at terra.com.pe
LinearSA at aol.com

Dear Security Professional,
Estimado Profesional de Seguridad,

Linear Corporation is the world's leading manufacturer of Wireless Security equipment, Wireless Alarm Systems, and Access Control Equipment, including Gate Controllers, like the AP3, with a capacity for 339 individual users for under $60.00.  For more information call us, or visit the Linear web page at;

Linear Corporation es el lider mundial de fabricaciones de equipo inalambrico de seguridad, sistemas de alarmas inalambricas, y equipo de Control de Acceso, como el AP3, que sirve para 339 usuarios y el precio es por debajo de $60.00.  Para mas informacion, llamenos, o visite nuestra pagina Web en;

http://www.linearcorp.com	

This Email complies with Statue s.1618 Title III. If you received this in error, or wish not to be listed, simply type remove in the subject window and send.

Si Ud. recibe este correo electronico por error, o no desea estar en nuestra lista, simplemente escriba remove in la linea destinada al sujeto y envie.




From measl at mfn.org  Tue Oct 16 20:33:56 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 22:33:56 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Safeweb
In-Reply-To: <22404006ba09d1a07777885e149e5667@dizum.com>
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 17 Oct 2001, Nomen Nescio wrote:

> Are there any Cypherpunks working at Safeweb? It would be nice to have
>someone of respectible integrity vouch for this company.

Holy shit!  You know a "respectable" CP???

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From morten at hotpost.dk  Tue Oct 16 13:39:55 2001
From: morten at hotpost.dk (Morten Liebach)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 22:39:55 +0200
Subject: ChefPunks
In-Reply-To: <3BCC84CE.BCA85093@lsil.com>
References: <3BCC84CE.BCA85093@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <20011016223954.C25043@hotpost.dk>


On 16, Oct, 2001 at 12:04:46PM -0700, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote:
> If 121C is adequate why not use the same temperature in your oven? I
> doubt the absolute pressure matters.

It does! It's the heat *and* saturated steam atmosphere.

You can dry-sterilize things at normal atmospheric pressure using (AFAIR)
~160C for 4-8 hours.

Have a nice day

		Morten

-- 
Morten Liebach 
PGP-key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xD796A4EB
https://pc89225.stofanet.dk/ || http://pc89225.stofanet.dk/




From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Oct 16 05:57:57 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 22:57:57 +1000
Subject: cauterizing the chicken in washington
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011016225541.00a57a40@pop.useoz.com>


Mr presidebt are you afraid to encrypt the reward or do you simply not know 
what encryption is?




From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Tue Oct 16 21:18:58 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 23:18:58 -0500
Subject: The "traitor" fires back
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011016193156.03b9f2d0@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: <3BCD06AC.15ABD7A8@cybershamanix.com>


      I'm really amazed -- and pleasantly so, with a whole new view of
Susan Sontag. I think I'm going to have to read some of her other stuff
- her piece in the New Yorker is certainly right on.
http://www.newyorker.com/THE_TALK_OF_THE_TOWN/CONTENT/?010924ta_talk_wtc

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver at cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html




From proff at iq.org  Tue Oct 16 07:11:33 2001
From: proff at iq.org (Julian Assange)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 00:11:33 +1000 (EST)
Subject: mirror volunteers needed
In-Reply-To: <20011016095036.C12622@ils.unc.edu>
Message-ID: <20011016141133.85A77259C1@suburbia.net>


> pressure.  (Publicly) mirroring cryptome isn't for the timid.  Asking
> people to mirror content that might be dangerous to their status with
> their upstream provider requires some more details.

Content is not fully predictable due to the distribution system employed.
If your upstream shoots before threatening, you probably don't want to
mirror this material.

Cheers,
Julian.




From declan at well.com  Tue Oct 16 21:19:32 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 00:19:32 -0400
Subject: More on "new physics"
In-Reply-To: <95F357A4-C0CA-11D5-9467-0050E439C473@got.net>; from
  tcmay@got.net on Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 10:40:40AM -0700
References: <3BC9B9ED.1040802@dragonsweb.org>
  <95F357A4-C0CA-11D5-9467-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <20011017001932.A14207@cluebot.com>


On Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 10:40:40AM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> "Tesla physics" is all the cruft that has developed around some of his 
> more obscure (and late) writings, usually mixed together with stuff 
> Tesla could not have known about at the time of his death. To wit, the 
> stuff about zero point energy and perpetual motion machines. And, 
> sometimes, mixed together with the usual nutcase stuff about the Hollow 
> Earth theory (zeta reticulans colonizing the hollow earth, Greys, 
> underground UFO bases, secret Nazi weapons, etc.).


From declan at well.com  Tue Oct 16 21:30:55 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 00:30:55 -0400
Subject: You Can Have Your Rights Back When We're Done
In-Reply-To: <3BCB0DBC.3A50D08B@acmenet.net>; from sfurlong@acmenet.net
  on Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 12:24:28PM -0400
References: 
  <3BCB0DBC.3A50D08B@acmenet.net>
Message-ID: <20011017003054.C14207@cluebot.com>


On Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 12:24:28PM -0400, Steve Furlong wrote:
> I normally attribute acts like this to incompetence rather than malice,
> but this is really pushing it. Could someone be ensuring there'd always

It might not be malice or incompetence but simple vindictiveness. The
WashPost article reports this is happening in NYC, where there's no lack
of angry police and government prosecutors around. Not saying this kind
of secret detention is right, of course, but if you're looking
for explanations...

-Declan




From declan at well.com  Tue Oct 16 21:33:41 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 00:33:41 -0400
Subject: RIAA wants to be able to hack "online pirates"
In-Reply-To: <20011015102428.A15424@slack.lne.com>; from ericm@lne.com
  on Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 10:24:28AM -0700
References: <20011015102428.A15424@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <20011017003341.D14207@cluebot.com>


On Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 10:24:28AM -0700, Eric Murray wrote:
> RIAA thinks that it's legal for them to hack people
> to disable "copyright pirates", but worries that the anti-hacking
> provisions in the "USA" act would make it illegal.

That is an excellent summary, better than the one at the top of my
article. You can find the text of the proposed, unsuccessful
amendment to the USA Act here:
http://www.wartimeliberty.com/article.pl?sid=01/10/14/1756248&mode=thread

-Declan




From declan at well.com  Tue Oct 16 21:38:12 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 00:38:12 -0400
Subject: Slashdot | First Steganographic Image Found In The Wild
In-Reply-To: <3BCB3F37.C27C3605@ssz.com>; from ravage@ssz.com on Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 02:55:35PM -0500
References: <3BCB3F37.C27C3605@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20011017003812.E14207@cluebot.com>


This is a misleading Subject: line and misleading Slashdot post.
Here's what I wrote about it last week:
http://www.politechbot.com/p-02638.html

A better Subject: line would be "it took a rigged demo of stego
prepared for ABC News and later posted on a stego-firm's website for
the stego-detection folks to finally claim they found stego."

-Declan


On Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 02:55:35PM -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> http://slashdot.org/articles/01/10/15/1727249.shtml
> -- 
> 
>  --
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>      The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.
> 
>                                              Edmund Burke (1784)
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------




From freematt at coil.com  Tue Oct 16 21:41:36 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 00:41:36 -0400
Subject: Reason Magazine And Foundation Support Encryption Rights
Message-ID: 


I want to thank both Mike Alissi, (malissi at reason.com) Publisher of 
Reason Magazine and David Nott (davidn at reason.org) President, Reason 
Foundation who each sent me a copy of Jacob Sullum's October 16, 2001 
essay "Fear of Prying" . 
Which I then sent to the subscribers of Freematt's Alerts (10,000+) 
and to several other mailing lists yesterday.

Mr. Sullum writes: "Boston Globe columnist Cathy Young, a colleague 
of mine at Reason magazine, has confessed that "the idea of people 
being able to encrypt electronic communications so that they are 
beyond surveillance" has always seemed "scary" to her, "precisely 
because of the threat of terrorism." This is like saying that 
computers or telephones or airplanes or box cutters are scary. Any 
technology can be used for good or ill. The question is whether the 
potential for evil justifies restrictions on legitimate uses."

And Sullum ends with: "Misuse of official records is not exactly 
unheard of in this country, and the problem would be magnified if 
every unsavory regime that has enlisted in the war on terrorism were 
to be trusted with the keys to its citizens' e-mail. For the 
dissidents Phil Zimmermann is rightly proud of helping, the whole 
point of encryption is to guard against official surveillance."

I was somewhat surprised and disturbed that Reason would publish 
Cathy Young's original article that appeared first in the Boston 
Globe, September 19, 2001 and then on Reason Online 
.  I think Freematt's Alerts 
subscriber Charles Platt , the distinguished science 
fiction author and senior writer at WIRED Magazine had the best 
response when he wrote:

"Bad enough that a contributing editor to Reason should indulge in 
the cliche-ridden handwringing of a statist apologist; far worse that 
these less-than-cerebral platitudes should be disseminated via an 
establishment publication, where Ms. Young is liable to be seen as a 
libertarian emissary.

To Cathy Young: All systems entail risk. As has just been 
demonstrated, a government-run system for terrorism-prevention does 
not eliminate risk. It only eliminates the superficial appearance of 
risk. This is far more dangerous than an honest approach in which 
risk is recognized and individuals are encouraged to deal with it 
instead of running to their elected representatives and asking to be 
protected.

"A free society is not a suicide pact"? No, it's a matter of 
principle, and of courage. I really think you should reconsider your 
political affiliations.

--Charles Platt
Senior Writer, Wired magazine"

For better or worse Reason Magazine is viewed as a 
libertarian/freemarket publication. The magazine has in the last 
decade doubled it's circulation to over 60,000 which places it over 
conservative publications such as the Weekly Standard and nearly that 
of the liberal New Republic.  See Columbus Dispatch Metro Columnist 
Steve Stephens's   October 15, 2001 column 
"The Voice of 'Reason' Lives In Small Ohio Town" where he interviews 
Reason's editor Nick Gillespie  See: 


I'm optimistic that Reason won't lose it's way and veer away from 
their libertarian roots and I might add that Jacob Sullum's article 
is a step in the right and libertarian direction.

Regards,  Matt Gaylor-


**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week)
Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722  ICQ: 106212065   Archived at 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/
**************************************************************************




From declan at well.com  Tue Oct 16 21:44:07 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 00:44:07 -0400
Subject: Who represents the detained? Nobody...
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011015184303.01e5ab40@pop.gmx.net>; from saeq@gmx.net on Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 06:50:46PM -0700
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011015174709.01e54c40@pop.gmx.net> <731F1F24-C1D3-11D5-9C6B-0050E439C473@got.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20011015184303.01e5ab40@pop.gmx.net>
Message-ID: <20011017004406.G14207@cluebot.com>


On Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 06:50:46PM -0700, Luthor Blisset wrote:
>          Incedentally, I wonder if the USA Bill will get overturned by the 
> Supreme Court anytime soon... Naaaa... Gr.

On what grounds? What arguments would you lodge against the eavesdropping
and wiretap sections? Fourth Amendment?

This is not an idle question; I'd actually be interested in pointers to
analysis on the subject. But just as the Supremes have failed to strike
down many unconstitutional laws, I suspect they can find a way to avoid
having to do that (so much jurisprudence is devoted to how striking down
laws by the judiciary should be a measure of last resort).

-Declan




From declan at well.com  Tue Oct 16 21:49:34 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 00:49:34 -0400
Subject: Canada slaughters civil rights
In-Reply-To: <00D929EE-C1EB-11D5-9C6B-0050E439C473@got.net>; from
  tcmay@got.net on Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 09:05:15PM -0700
References:  <00D929EE-C1EB-11D5-9C6B-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <20011017004934.H14207@cluebot.com>


On Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 09:05:15PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> Not just this, but they did it with an unacceptable amount of warning.

Right. Terrible customer focus, to use some buzzword phrase. Even putting
political issues aside, I'd have a very tough time recommending their
products to anyone after this week-or-two discontinuation.

It would be like the Well abruptly deciding to kill my well.com address
with a week's notice, after I've had it since 1995, and rely on it for
professional and personal reasons.

> (Seven days, versus the past couple of years of obvious trends. It 
> doesn't take much neural processing to see that their sudden 
> re-focussing on some bullshit product like "cookie management" is a 
> response to the new climate of fear.)

Maybe, maybe not. I've had numerous reports from reliable sources who
have said that the change was in the works before Sep.11. Maybe the attacks
speeded it up.

> So, NAI is abandoning PGP (no great loss, actually), ZKS is abandoning 
> Freedom (ditto), and some crypto luminaries are falling all over 
> themselves to support police state measures.

Some possible good news, for a change. Sen. Judd Gregg, who said he
was introducing legislation to restrict crypto, seems to have a change
of heart. My article will be up at wired.com tomorrow.

-Declan




From declan at well.com  Tue Oct 16 21:53:45 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 00:53:45 -0400
Subject: Canada slaughters civil rights
In-Reply-To: ; from wolf@priori.net on Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 09:50:29PM -0700
References: <00D929EE-C1EB-11D5-9C6B-0050E439C473@got.net>
  
Message-ID: <20011017005345.I14207@cluebot.com>


On Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 09:50:29PM -0700, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote:
> The first problem is pretty unsolvable. (Starting your own country is not
> a feasible solution, in my opinion. For instance, Sealand exists because
> Britain tolerates it. As soon as it is branded "a terrorist bunker in
> cyberspace" there would be plenty of justification for bombing it.)

Or yanking its network connections, which I wrote about a while back.

And here's what one professor of international law at Georgetown says:

http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,36756,00.html
"I suspect we could blow them out of the water, although I wouldn't
recommend that, and if they were in fact propagating illegal material
I bet nobody would really care. There would be few consequences if
nobody is interested."

-Declan




From declan at well.com  Tue Oct 16 22:01:30 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 01:01:30 -0400
Subject: Martial law supposedly implemented in the US
In-Reply-To: <200110170013.UAA19304@smtp6.mindspring.com>; from
  jya@pipeline.com on Tue, Oct 16, 2001 at 08:06:59PM -0700
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011016155542.045a0ba0@bivens.parrhesia.com>
  <5B4EB71E-C28E-11D5-B48C-0050E439C473@got.net>
  <200110170013.UAA19304@smtp6.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20011017010129.K14207@cluebot.com>


Yeah, here's what I sent to Politech:
http://www.politechbot.com/p-02661.html

It seems that the TLJ article played up the AP link far too much,
which is why I tried to set it straight. I know the TLJ editor, a
DC lawyer, and I'm a little surprised he'd do that.

-Declan


On Tue, Oct 16, 2001 at 08:06:59PM -0700, John Young wrote:
> Ratchet indeed. Declan posted elsewhere a blurb from
> a law journal which links the recent wahoo of a federal
> prosecutor in the Western District of Washington to Carl
> Johnson and "Assassination Politics." The article
> cited three sources on the DoJ web site, two of which
> do indeed allege CJ's implementation of AP, if not
> directly then by god by wahooing, as does the law
> journal. WWA is a hothouse for homeland wahoo.
> 
> Jessica Stern, a Harvard wahoo expert, who has
> extensively interviewed Jim Bell but was never called
> as a witness in his recent trial, is now disclosing to
> inquiring journalists the contents of her interviews 
> with homeland wahoos. Expect Jim, AP, CJ and
> a few others to get ratcheted right smartly to meet
> fervent demand for wahoo incrimination.
> 
> If you haven't euthanized everything you've got on
> wahoo, think about it.




From kris_mccraw at hotmail.com  Wed Oct 17 03:32:13 2001
From: kris_mccraw at hotmail.com (kris_mccraw at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 03:32:13
Subject: warning cell phone use may cause cancer
Message-ID: <750.42342.466205@unknown>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 3274 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From nobody at dizum.com  Tue Oct 16 19:30:20 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 04:30:20 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Safeweb
Message-ID: <22404006ba09d1a07777885e149e5667@dizum.com>


Are there any Cypherpunks working at Safeweb? It would be nice to have someone of respectible integrity vouch for this company.




From leslie4738 at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 17 01:13:07 2001
From: leslie4738 at yahoo.com (leslie4738 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 05:13:07 -0300
Subject: i'd like to meet you!!
Message-ID: <20011017081305.CQWO24772.mta1@computer2a>



    
     hi, i saw your ad personal ad and it sounded interesting, i couldn't tell if it's been there a while so i guess my first question is are you still looking? i don't know if your looking for a real meeting or just chat, if it's a meeting your looking for so am i. i'd like to send a picture but i don't know how to scan so i can't send you one direct.i figured out a way to do it online.

    just go on down,take a look and if you like the way i look then i guess we can take the next step. the site 
name is  www.threehornyhousewives.com   i think you will like my profile, because to me it sounds like we have a lot in common.oh and if your a kid don't even bother!! NOT INTERESTED!!

                              hope to talk soon,
                                   leslie692
    
PS: the site is a little sexy
but it's not porn, i used it 
because it's out of the way and 
didn't want to be too easy to 
find.
 

    

	







From freeze at teamfreeze.com  Wed Oct 17 03:44:10 2001
From: freeze at teamfreeze.com (freeze at teamfreeze.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 05:44:10 -0500
Subject: Welcome to our Daily Newsletter!
Message-ID: <200110162137.OAA07179@toad.com>


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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Oct 17 05:23:55 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 07:23:55 -0500
Subject: Yahoo - Oakland airport to begin using facial ID system
Message-ID: <3BCD785B.89999423@ssz.com>


http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/011017/n16177621_2.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Oct 17 05:40:52 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 07:40:52 -0500
Subject: ScienceDaily Magazine -- Conflict "Early Warning" Tool May Help Predict Crises In Places Like Afghanistan, Pakistan
Message-ID: <3BCD7C54.192DB0B9@ssz.com>


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/10/011017065320.htm
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From craig at red-bean.com  Wed Oct 17 06:38:01 2001
From: craig at red-bean.com (Craig Brozefsky)
Date: 17 Oct 2001 08:38:01 -0500
Subject: The "traitor" fires back
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <87sncijsjq.fsf@piracy.red-bean.com>


Jim Choate  writes:

> Don't know about unpatriotic but her sense of history and womens place in
> it is clearly effected by her own political and philosophical agenda...

Yah, she's a women too.

> Never been anything like it indeed. More hand waving spin doctor bullshit.

Could you elaborate?  I'm failing to see the hand-waving and
spin-doctor bullshit.

-- 
Craig Brozefsky                             
                                  http://www.red-bean.com/~craig
The outer space which me wears it has sexual intercourse. - opus




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Wed Oct 17 09:12:25 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 09:12:25 -0700
Subject: ChefPunks
Message-ID: <3BCDADE9.F3E4BC1E@lsil.com>


 
Ken Brown  wrote :
>
>mmotyka at lsil.com wrote:
>> 
>> ichudov at Algebra.Com (Igor Chudov) wrote :
>> >
>> >One thing I would like to buy is a pressure cooker.
>> >
>> I have found them to be of little use. Save some $, try a garage sale.
>
>I used to use them a lot. Great for beans et.c  And not as expensive as
>a goode steamer :-)
>
Rinse, pre-soak over night, most beans cook in a reasonable time.

>Pressure cooker much faster to heat up. Also for large samples the water
>adds heat to sample faster - food in an oven at 200 degrees is often not
>much more than 100 inside while the outside is already roasting.
>
Water condensing on a cool surface may add heat quickly but many common
inks are water soluble. It is the heat that does the killing. With mail,
the problem is poorly conducting, but very thin materials. Dry roasting
ought to work. Temperature TBD, 160C+ from other info.

>Personally I would quite like to keep microbiological samples separate
>from my cooking equipment :-)
>
True, but then life is one great big microbial soup ain't it? What lives
on that leg of lamb when you throw it in the pan?
 
>> A nitrogen atmosphere might be a good thing to reduce oxidation of inks
>> and paper. I doubt it would help your new Visa card though.
>
>But oxygen is just the thing to be nasty to bacteria.  Hit them with
>activated oxygen. Peroxide works wonders - kills all known bacteria
>(yes, even spores) and doesn't permanently damage the environment :-)
>
True, but you'd have to experiment with the stability of inks at high
temperatures - I was just musing that the chances of still being able to
see them would be better if oxygen were not available.

H2O2 is also a damn good bleach. Just look at Hollywood.

Mike




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Wed Oct 17 09:24:23 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 09:24:23 -0700
Subject: [NEWS] FBI To Require ISPs To Reconfigure E-mail Systems (fwd)
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011017092308.034b0070@idiom.com>


David Lesher  sent the following to CYBERIA-L at LISTSERV.AOL.COM
-------------------

National Journal's Technology Daily

PM Edition

October 16, 2001

HEADLINE: PRIVACY: FBI To Require ISPs To Reconfigure E-mail Systems

PHOENIX -- The FBI is in the process of finalizing technical
guidelines that would require all Internet service providers (ISPS) to
reconfigure their e-mail systems so they could be more easily
accessible to law enforcers. The move, to be completed over the next
two months, would cause ISPs to act as phone companies do to comply
with a 1994 digital-wiretapping law. "They are in the process of
developing a very detailed set of standards for how to make packet
data" available to the FBI, said Stewart Baker, an attorney at Steptoe
& Johnson who was formerly the chief counsel to the National Security
Agency (NSA).

The proposal is not a part of the anti-terrorism legislation currently
before Congress because the agency is expected to argue that the
Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act (CALEA) already
grants it the authority to impose the requirement, Baker said. He
added that some ISPs already meet the requirements.

Baker, who frequently represents Internet companies being asked to
conduct electronic surveillance for the FBI, made the revelation
Tuesday in a panel discussion at the Agenda 2002 conference here on
how the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks are likely to affect the technology
industry and civil liberties. He elaborated on the plan in an
interview.

Such a stance could result in considerable cost to many ISPs, and it
would constitute a reversal of previous government policy, which held
that ISPs are not subject to CALEA's requirements. But Baker also said
"it has been a long-term goal of the FBI and is not just a reaction to
Sept. 11."

Mitchell Kapor, chairman of the Open Source Application Foundation and
a founder of Lotus Development, also spoke on the panel. Kapor also
started the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) and has been a vocal
advocate of Internet privacy. EFF played a significant role in the
CALEA debate, and divisions over whether to support that law led to a
split of the organization.

"Under the cover of people's outrage [over the terrorist attacks] and
desire for revenge, lots of things that have been defeated before have
been brought back in [to the anti-terrorism legislation] without a
demonstration that the lack of appropriate law is a problem," Kapor
said in an interview. But on the whole, Kapor and Baker shared more
common ground on the acceptability of new electronic surveillance than
they had in the past, with both expressing the view that now is a time
for calm reconsideration of positions rather than butting horns over
the details of how civil liberties would be curtailed by an
anti-terrorism bill.

"I find myself more in the middle than I used to because my identity
in life is not as a civil liberties advocate," Kapor said. "Part is
being an American and a world citizen." Baker said it was entirely
appropriate for the FBI to conduct far more surveillance.

"What has changed [since Sept. 11] is the view of the technology
community," Baker said. "I used to get calls like, 'How can I beat the
NSA?'" said Baker. "Now, people call and say, 'I have this great idea
that would help NSA,' or, 'I want to go volunteer and do outreach on
behalf of the FBI or NSA.' There is a real change of people's view
about who the bad guys are."

.


--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz at nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433


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**********************************************************************




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Wed Oct 17 09:34:09 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 09:34:09 -0700
Subject: Sen. Gregg changes his mind, won't introduce
  anti-encryption bill
Message-ID: <3BCDB301.CEFF4D76@lsil.com>


Declan,

This sounds good.

And what about the SSSCA that is the offspring of the coupling between
Hollings and media companies? Is that still alive?

There is a phrase that I remember from some of the anit-terror
legislation that bothers me -it's the "providing expert advice" part. Is
there any that this could be used to go after those who create,
distribute and teach about privacy tools or services?

Mike




From hakkin at sarin.com  Wed Oct 17 09:43:41 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 09:43:41 -0700
Subject: More coverage of Larry Ellison's fascism
Message-ID: <3BCDB53C.F6608518@sarin.com>


http://www0.mercurycenter.com/local/center/id101701.htm

Choice quotes from the Man, who doesn't realize that the Constitution
protects *everyone* in the US, regardless of residency status:

                      The cards would be voluntary for all U.S.
citizens, he said
                      Tuesday. Any American without a card still could
board a
                      plane, but only after undergoing a more rigorous
search.

                      The cards would be mandatory, however, for foreign

                      visitors, including students on visas and
non-citizens living
                      and working in the United States who now carry
``green
                      cards,'' he said. Ellison has not offered
specifics on how
                      the estimated 8 million illegal immigrants in the
United
                      States might be affected.

..........
Boycott Oracle




From hakkin at sarin.com  Wed Oct 17 09:57:04 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 09:57:04 -0700
Subject: Monty Python made be illegal in UK
Message-ID: <3BCDB85F.CDC49429@sarin.com>


_The Life of Brian_ could be an incitement to religious hatred"
under new proposed UK law...

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,59-2001361433,00.html




From schear at lvcm.com  Wed Oct 17 10:35:54 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 10:35:54 -0700
Subject: Anonymity in America: Does National Security Preclude It?
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011016200633.03b98a70@pop3.lvcm.com>


"Anonymity in America: Does National Security Preclude It?"


steve




From hakkin at sarin.com  Wed Oct 17 10:47:53 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 10:47:53 -0700
Subject: bin Laden stoned (attn: JYA CARTOME)
Message-ID: <3BCDC448.4CE34587@sarin.com>


                Tuesday, Oct. 16, 2001

                Geologist: I Know Where bin Laden
                Is

                University of Nebraska-Omaha geologist Jack
                Shroder says he knows where terrorist
                kingpin Osama bin Laden is hiding.

                Shroder, who has done research in
                Afghanistan, says he recognized rock
                formations shown in the taped remarks bin
                Laden made after the U.S. bombing began 10
                days ago, United Press International
                reported today.

                Shroder said while he was watching the bin
                Laden tape, "I turned to my wife and told
                her I know where he is."

                He told the Omaha World-Herald he has
                received calls about the tape but would not
                say whether any were from the federal
                government.

                He said the type of rock seen in the tape is
                found in only two provinces, Paktia and
                Paktika, about 125 miles from Kabul. The
                area, he said, is riddled with caves and
                controlled by the Pushtuns, one of five
                ethnic groups vying for control of
                Afghanistan.

from http://www.newsmax.com/showinside.shtml?a=2001/10/16/135326
but original at omaha news, being slashdotted by drudge currently.




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Oct 17 10:55:02 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 10:55:02 -0700
Subject: [NEWS] FBI To Require ISPs To Reconfigure E-mail Systems
  (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20011017092308.034b0070@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <170C5B48-C328-11D5-B48C-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Wednesday, October 17, 2001, at 09:24 AM, Bill Stewart wrote:

> David Lesher  sent the following to CYBERIA-
> L at LISTSERV.AOL.COM
> -------------------
>
> National Journal's Technology Daily
>
> PM Edition
>
> October 16, 2001
>
> HEADLINE: PRIVACY: FBI To Require ISPs To Reconfigure E-mail Systems
>
> PHOENIX -- The FBI is in the process of finalizing technical
> guidelines that would require all Internet service providers (ISPS) to
> reconfigure their e-mail systems so they could be more easily
> accessible to law enforcers.

I've never understood why this is not recognized by the courts as an 
ipso facto violation of the First Amendment.

Letters are speech, and e-mail is a letter. (There is no confusing stuff 
about "use of the public airwaves" as there is with radio and 
television, the putative reason for FCC regulation of radio and 
television.)

Requiring that a letter be in a certain form, or written in a particular 
language, would be a violation of the First Amendment.

Why is electronic communication any different?

It isn't.

It may be that Carnivore just has not been challenged properly in the 
courts. Sad that it may take such an expensive challenge, with years and 
years of watiing, and with an uncertain outcome (due to the ignoring of 
the C. by the Supremes).

> demonstration that the lack of appropriate law is a problem," Kapor
> said in an interview. But on the whole, Kapor and Baker shared more
> common ground on the acceptability of new electronic surveillance than
> they had in the past, with both expressing the view that now is a time
> for calm reconsideration of positions rather than butting horns over
> the details of how civil liberties would be curtailed by an
> anti-terrorism bill.

Kapor is just another Cathy Young, just another fellow traveller 
supporting the total state.


--Tim May, Corralitos, California
Quote of the Month: "It is said that there are no atheists in foxholes; 
perhaps there are no true libertarians in times of terrorist attacks." 
--Cathy Young, "Reason Magazine," both enemies of liberty.




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Oct 17 11:00:43 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 11:00:43 -0700
Subject: More coverage of Larry Ellison's fascism
In-Reply-To: <3BCDB53C.F6608518@sarin.com>
Message-ID: 


On Wednesday, October 17, 2001, at 09:43 AM, Khoder bin Hakkin wrote:

> http://www0.mercurycenter.com/local/center/id101701.htm
>
> Choice quotes from the Man, who doesn't realize that the Constitution
> protects *everyone* in the US, regardless of residency status:
>
>                       The cards would be voluntary for all U.S.
> citizens, he said
>                       Tuesday. Any American without a card still could
> board a
>                       plane, but only after undergoing a more rigorous
> search.
>
>                       The cards would be mandatory, however, for foreign
>
>                       visitors, including students on visas and
> non-citizens living
>                       and working in the United States who now carry
> ``green
>                       cards,'' he said.


Ellison rushed into this scam for selling more Oracle data bases (*) 
without much thought.

Mandatory for some means mandatory for all, else the "some" will simply 
claim they are part of the group not required to carry cards. Obviously.

(* Ellison says he will "give away the software," but he doesn't say to 
whom, or how agencies required to interact with the software will get 
their copies, or who will do the maintenance, etc. He is obviously 
looking for Oracle to give away some free copies but then be the 
Official Supplier to Big Brother. State capitalism in its most obvious 
form.)


> --Tim May
"You don't expect governments to obey the law because of some higher 
moral development. You expect them to obey the law because they know 
that if they don't, those who aren't shot will be hanged." - -Michael 
Shirley




From keyser-soze at hushmail.com  Wed Oct 17 11:11:17 2001
From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 11:11:17 -0700
Subject: Anodyne for sore feet
Message-ID: <200110171811.f9HIBHW88756@mailserver1.hushmail.com>


All that recent stepping on our civil liberties must have left more than a few of our Congressmen with tender feet.  I say we send them some Dr. Scholls relief.




From declan at well.com  Wed Oct 17 08:11:35 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 11:11:35 -0400
Subject: Sen. Gregg changes his mind, won't introduce anti-encryption
  bill
Message-ID: <20011017111135.A6169@cluebot.com>


----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh  -----



http://www.wired.com/news/conflict/0,2100,47635,00.html

   Senator Backs Off Backdoors
   By Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com)
   2:00 a.m. Oct. 17, 2001 PDT
   
   WASHINGTON -- Sen. Judd Gregg has abruptly changed his mind and will
   no longer seek to insert backdoors into encryption products.
   
   A spokesman for the New Hampshire Republican said Tuesday that Gregg
   has "no intention" of introducing a bill to require government access
   to scrambled electronic or voice communications.
   
   "We are not working on an encryption bill and have no intention to,"
   spokesman Brian Hart said in an interview.
   
   Two days after the Sept. 11 attacks, Gregg strode onto the Senate
   floor and called for a global prohibition on data-scrambling products
   without backdoors for government surveillance. Gregg said that quick
   action was necessary "to get the information that allows us to
   anticipate and prevent what occurred in New York and in Washington."
   
   A few days later, Gregg told the Associated Press that he was
   preparing legislation "to give our law enforcement community more
   tools" to unscramble messages in hopes of fighting terrorists.

   [...]



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From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Wed Oct 17 11:21:55 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 11:21:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NEWS] FBI To Require ISPs To Reconfigure E-mail Systems
In-Reply-To: <170C5B48-C328-11D5-B48C-0050E439C473@got.net> from "Tim
  May" at Oct 17, 2001 10:55:02 AM
Message-ID: <200110171821.f9HILtP24726@artifact.psychedelic.net>


Tim writes:

> I've never understood why this is not recognized by the courts as an 
> ipso facto violation of the First Amendment.

This is because the courts have created for themselves from whole cloth
the power to "interpret" the Constitution, as opposed to simply enforcing
its letter.  Once you allow the courts to do this, you have created a
third branch of government, more powerful than the other two.

Clearly, if the Constitution says one thing, and the Supreme Court says
something entirely different, one should follow the Constitution.

Most of the country, in the current political climate, would follow the
Supreme Court.  This makes the Constitution very weak.  In fact, I would
imagine that dispensing with the pretense of the Constitution altogether
today would engender no more protest from the Sheeple than going off the
gold standard did.  There might be a few irate editorials, but no one
would take up arms, particularly with the government doing its best to
suggest that people who call themselves "Patriots" and know the
Constitution too well are extremist whackos.

> Requiring that a letter be in a certain form, or written in a particular 
> language, would be a violation of the First Amendment.

> Why is electronic communication any different?

It isn't.  But in the classic words of Bill Gates to Steve Jobs about the
Mac being technically superior to Windows, "You don't get it.  It doesn't
matter."

The First Amendment already lies on the ashheap of history, thanks to the
Dworks and the doctrine that the Constitution is unimportant if "it saves
just one (metaphorical) child."

First Amendment rot began with Miller, and continued with Ferber, and
Knox, and Amateur Action.  There is now very little left of the First
Amendment that is not tiny fungus-coated balls en route through the
digestive tract of worms.

> Kapor is just another Cathy Young, just another fellow traveller 
> supporting the total state.

Mitch needs to go back to the Maharishi for a tuneup.

Stay tuned for the next exciting episode of "Spore Wars."

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From wolf at priori.net  Wed Oct 17 11:59:48 2001
From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 11:59:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NEWS] FBI To Require ISPs To Reconfigure E-mail Systems
  (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20011017092308.034b0070@idiom.com>
Message-ID: 


On Wed, 17 Oct 2001, Bill Stewart wrote:

> "I find myself more in the middle than I used to because my identity
> in life is not as a civil liberties advocate," Kapor said. "Part is
> being an American and a world citizen."

I think this sums up our problem. "Who needs enemies...?"




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Oct 17 12:11:25 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 12:11:25 -0700
Subject: Autoclaving the mail
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Wednesday, October 17, 2001, at 11:15 AM, Trei, Peter wrote:

>> Harmon Seaver[SMTP:hseaver at cybershamanix.com] wrote:
>>
>>
>>         I'm not understanding the comments about wetness affecting mail
>> in a pressure cooker -- using it as an autoclave, that is. I would
>> assume anyone doing this would put the perishable objects in a
>> waterproof container, such as a canning jar. You can get them in 1/2
>> gallon size. And I'm sure there are any number of steel, aluminum, etc.
>> waterproof containers that would work as well.
>>
>> Harmon Seaver, MLIS
>>
> The whole point of an autoclave is that the superheated steam and
> condesing superheated water drops transfer heat to the target faster
> than simple hot air at 1 atm.

I disagree. While autoclaves and pressure cookers/canners do indeed 
"heat faster," the main purpose is not speeding up the heating.

Rather, it is in getting the temperature to 240 F or higher, the 
temperature required to kill organisms which are not killed at mere 
boiling water temperatures. And, secondarily, in getting the temperature 
in all the various nooks and crannies of instruments. (In this part, I 
agree that "heating faster" is important...but it's only a secondary 
issue, and of no practical importance for the "autoclaving the mail" 
proposal: one just leaves the mail in the autoclave or pressure canner 
for another couple of minutes, thus compensating for any slight lag time 
in heating.)

In a pressure canner, this 240 F temp is needed to prevent botulism in 
low-acid foods (meats, some vegetables). High-acid foods like jams and 
jellies and fruits can be canned in ordinary boiling water.
>

> Putting the material to be sterilized in a waterproof container defeats
> this goal. Putting it in a pressure tight container such as a canning
> jar is doubley futile - either the superheated steam and water won't
> get to the material to be sterilized, or the container will fail
> catastrophically.

Not that I am endorsing this idea, but the contents of a sealed 
container will _still_ see the internal 240 F temperature (albeit with 
some small thermal lag, depending on construction, thermal mass, etc.). 
Papers inside a sealed metal foil package, for example, without 
insulation in the foil, will reach the ambient temperature (240 F) 
pretty quickly.

It is not necessary for the steam to touch the material being sterilized.


--Tim May
"Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and
strangled with her panty hose,  is somehow morally superior to a woman 
explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound"




From morganmarino259 at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 17 12:19:39 2001
From: morganmarino259 at yahoo.com (morganmarino259 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 12:19:39
Subject: advice                                                                                                                                                           72
Message-ID: <763.136824.692173@yahoo.com>

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From tcmay at got.net  Wed Oct 17 12:21:32 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 12:21:32 -0700
Subject: More on Autoclaving the Mail
In-Reply-To: <3BCDC6EA.BEE73838@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <2C850746-C334-11D5-B48C-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Wednesday, October 17, 2001, at 10:59 AM, Harmon Seaver wrote:

>         I'm not understanding the comments about wetness affecting mail
> in a pressure cooker -- using it as an autoclave, that is. I would
> assume anyone doing this would put the perishable objects in a
> waterproof container, such as a canning jar. You can get them in 1/2
> gallon size. And I'm sure there are any number of steel, aluminum, etc.
> waterproof containers that would work as well.
>

As I write about in another post, this is generally correct. The main 
purpose of an autoclave or pressure canner is to get the internal 
temperature to above 240 F, because some organisms can live at boiling 
water temperatures.

However, pressure canners allow the air inside Mason jars, or cans, to 
escape during the heating process, then during the cooling period the 
lid is pressed down on the lip of the jar and a seal is made. This is a 
big part of canning, of course.

I doubt an already tightly-sealed Mason jar would implode, but it might. 
Some experiments would be easy to do.

(Along with experiments to see what temperatures are reached inside 
sealed containers after various amounts of time. I have a "peak 
temperature recording" thermometer, but mine is only good for "normal" 
weather temps. I'm sure such things exist for higher temperatures. Check 
a chemical equipment supply house, like Fisher, or even Edmund 
Scientific. Or just type suitable terms into search engines, if actually 
interested in doing this experiment. Experimenting with anthrax cultures 
is no longer feasible, or politically safe to do.)


--Tim May, Occupied America
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety 
deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759.




From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Wed Oct 17 12:24:09 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 12:24:09 -0700
Subject: Sen. Gregg changes his mind, won't introduce
  anti-encryption bill
In-Reply-To: <3BCDB301.CEFF4D76@lsil.com>; from mmotyka@lsil.com on Wed,
  Oct 17, 2001 at 09:34:09AM -0700
References: <3BCDB301.CEFF4D76@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <20011017122409.W5739@navel.introspect>


on Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 09:34:09AM -0700, mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
wrote:
> Declan,
>
> This sounds good.
>
> And what about the SSSCA that is the offspring of the coupling between
> Hollings and media companies? Is that still alive?
>
> There is a phrase that I remember from some of the anit-terror
> legislation that bothers me -it's the "providing expert advice" part. Is
> there any that this could be used to go after those who create,
> distribute and teach about privacy tools or services?

Or Bugtraq.

This is a real concern, yes.

Peace.

--
Karsten M. Self        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?             Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]




From wolf at priori.net  Wed Oct 17 12:46:55 2001
From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 12:46:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: International Patent Law doesn't apply to USG?
In-Reply-To: <20011016162301.B8459@navel.introspect>
Message-ID: 


On Tue, 16 Oct 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote:

> To the best of my knowledge, patent law is not uniform internationally,
> certainly not to the extent copyright law is.  In the US, both patent
> and copyright are powers granted to, not obligations required of,
> Congress.  There is prior precedent for lifting patent protections,
> usually as anti-trust settlements.

While I don't agree with most of the "anti-trust law" in general (another
issue entirely), in order to have an anti-trust settlement, there would
have been an anti-trust lawsuit. The company being stripped of its patents
would have had a chance to defend itself.

If the US begins arbitrarily lifting patent restrictions in order to steal
from foreign companies, expect retaliation in kind.


-MW-




From anonymous at anonymizer.com  Wed Oct 17 12:55:00 2001
From: anonymous at anonymizer.com (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 12:55 -0700
Subject: Who represents the detained? Nobody...
Message-ID: <200110171955.MAA17672@sirius.infonex.com>


>>>They HAVE representation, and I don't THINK the Bill
>>>of Rights says anywhere that you get to see Mommy
>>>if you're arrested, but that you can obtain
>>>representation, you are not required to incriminate
>>>yourself, and so forth.  In theory.
>>
>>Get a clue. The issue is not "get to see Mommy."
>>
>>Rather, the issue is the holding of 600+ various persons, some of whom are 
>>very vaguely claimed to be "material witnesses."
>
>
>Note too that many of the detained 
>may not have lawyers.  

How about we play "let's hypothesize the conditions that 
make our argument true."  That saves having to ground your reasoning in reality.

The Washington Post article says "and limited access to their lawyers"....
and "The Justice Department has also refused to reveal the names of the 
lawyers representing them."

At least they have lawyers, don't you get the point?
The dead had no lawyers to argue for thier lives.

"That process is supervised by a court."
The dead had no judge supervising their execution.

>Most of them are 
>not being held on criminal charges.  They are held as material witnesses or 
>on immigration holds.  
>I don't know if a material witness has a right to an 

Then you don't know what you're arguing, do you?
Pick your battles.

Wiretapping expansion, big problem, 

Lack of luxury accomodations for material witnesses
who are at the least crucial information resources and
may be co-conspirators, little problem.




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Wed Oct 17 12:59:13 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 12:59:13 -0700
Subject: Temperature Instruments
Message-ID: <3BCDE311.A1F8E40C@lsil.com>


omega has lots of temperature measurement equipment, some of it even
reasonably priced. Some DVMs can be bought with thermocouple inputs.




From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Wed Oct 17 10:59:14 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 12:59:14 -0500
Subject: ChefPunks
References: <3BCDADE9.F3E4BC1E@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <3BCDC6EA.BEE73838@cybershamanix.com>


        I'm not understanding the comments about wetness affecting mail
in a pressure cooker -- using it as an autoclave, that is. I would
assume anyone doing this would put the perishable objects in a
waterproof container, such as a canning jar. You can get them in 1/2
gallon size. And I'm sure there are any number of steel, aluminum, etc.
waterproof containers that would work as well.

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver at cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Oct 17 13:02:51 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 13:02:51 -0700
Subject: Detainees, Personal Libertarianism, and Vengeance
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011017103115.03f3a350@brillig.panix.com>
Message-ID: 


As the title says, I'll be talking about a couple of different issues. 
I've been meaning to write an essay on personal libertarianism for a 
while now, but haven't until now worked up the energy. (The fact that so 
many of the Cypherpunks list subscribers are weirdos posting crap from 
Hushmail and other throwaway accounts is also a factor. Perl before 
swine, in a sense.)

Comments below are hastily typed. Don't expect a polished essay. Those 
who get the gist will get it without the polish.

On Wednesday, October 17, 2001, at 11:26 AM, Duncan Frissell wrote:

> At 08:16 PM 10/15/01 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>> On Monday, October 15, 2001, at 07:56 PM, Anonymous wrote:
>>
>>> You all, including Mr. May, missed the subtlety of the point that
>>> due process has NOT been suspended in the case of these detainees.
>>>
>>> They HAVE representation, and I don't THINK the Bill
>>> of Rights says anywhere that you get to see Mommy
>>> if you're arrested, but that you can obtain
>>> representation, you are not required to incriminate
>>> yourself, and so forth.  In theory.
>>
>> Get a clue. The issue is not "get to see Mommy."
>>
>> Rather, the issue is the holding of 600+ various persons, some of whom 
>> are very vaguely claimed to be "material witnesses."
>
>
> Note too that many of the detained may not have lawyers.  Most of them 
> are not being held on criminal charges.  They are held as material 
> witnesses or on immigration holds.  I don't know if a material witness 
> has a right to an attorney but immigration offenses are civil not 
> criminal matters (in most cases) and thus the prisoners have to pay for 
> their own lawyers which means that those who have no money have to find 
> lawyers and convince them to work for free and to spend their own money 
> chasing their clients around the country as they are moved.

And reading about this and similar "material witness" cases, we see 
cases where a bunch of Chinese alleged boat refugees were held as 
material witnesses, but were moved on judge's orders to "relatively 
pleasant" holding areas. The judge acknowledged that the detainees were 
not to be "punished" by holding them in 19th-century dungeons. By 
contrast, the several hundred "A-Rabs" have been held now for about 3-5 
weeks in "Tombs"-like dungeon cells, with no reading material (*), no 
access to families, no phone calls allowed, and, as Duncan points out, 
moved around to other similarly crummy cells. They are also awoken every 
2 hours for a roll call, lights kept on 24/7, the usual treatment that 
is really torture.

(* Giving them a copy of the Koran is the only exception...what rocket 
scientist figured this one out?)

But I want to raise a different issue here.

I've seen several posters comment about the "5000-degree meatgrinder" 
and about how "the terrorists did not respect _our_ rights, so why 
should we respect _theirs_?"

This misses the point completely. The issue is not about some liberal 
coddling of criminals and terrorists. The issue is not even about 
_their_ rights. The issue is about _my_ rights. And about the police 
state we are now quickly expanding.

To understand this issue, it is helpful to think this way:

"How would _you_ react if _you_ were picked up by the cops, not 
presented with any charges, not allowed to call a lawyer of your 
choosing, not allowed to contact family or friends or make arrangements 
for rent payments and the like, and simply held in a maximum security 
cell for 5 weeks?"  (My view, expressed earlier, is that I would seek 
vengeance. I would seek ways to kill the guards, the judges, the cops, 
the bureaucrats, everyone involved in my "kidnapping.")

Or,

"How would _you_ react if you were taken from your land and sent to a 
concentration camp in Nevada because your grandmother was of a 
particular ethnic group? No due process, no court appearance, no 
appeal...just seizure of your property and transport to a KZ."  (I'm 
surprised the Japanese-ancestry persons, hundreds of thousands of them, 
were so meek. I'm surprised that thousands of former guards and judges 
and processing officials were not assassinated during the 1950s as 
payback. The Nuremberg case established, cough cough, that "just 
following orders" is not a defense. Every single one of the guards and 
officials at Manzanar deserved to be killed for his crimes. Even by 
killing a dozen of the guards, and judges, something would have been 
accomplished.)

Or,

"How would _you_ react if black-clad ninja raiders threw flash-bangs 
into your home in a pre-dawn raid, entered your home, and shot and 
killed anything that showed signs of movement? And only later showed you 
a search warrant?"  (Again, my view: Those who survive should kill the 
judges who ordered such a raid without a warrant being properly 
presented, and all of the cops should be killed. If it is necessary to 
kill 50 persons, so be it. Of course, doing it safely and undetectably 
is a challenge. But technology is coming to allow some semblance of this 
kind of justice.)

And so on.

For the past 35 years of my politically awake life, I have found it very 
clarifying to think of _all_ proposed or existing laws in terms of how 
it could apply to _me_. Seen this way, I have no problems supporting 
laws against murder, burglary, or other such crimes. But I look with 
deep suspicion on any laws which are designed to be "social engineering" 
or to accomplish "desirable outcomes."

P.J. O'Rourke puts it this way:  "Would you kill your grandmother over 
this law?"  Valid laws are ones you would even support the punishment of 
your own grandmother over. Most current laws are not like this, because 
most people think the laws will be applied to other people, to "hate 
speakers" and to "smokers" and to "stinking Arabs." (Read his books for 
a fuller exposition.)

Here's a very specific example: Laws requiring key escrow or backdoors. 
The "social engineer"  evaluates these laws and proposals in terms of 
benefits to society, costs of law enforcement, tradeoffs between 
individual liberties and social good, etc. But to the personal 
libertarian, like me, the evaluation is this:

"Let me get this straight. You're saying that if I keep a diary, I need 
to "escrow" a copy with the local police, with supposedly "mandated 
safeguards" so that my diary will only be looked at with "suitable court 
orders"? Well, fuck that. And fuck you, too. I'll write as I wish. You 
fucking snakes."

This "personal" view of liberties happens to be very much what the 
Founders intended. And it motivate the sub-branch of libertarianism I 
call "vengeance libertarianism."

As it applies to the current suspension of habeas corpus (effectively) 
and to the proposals (PATRIOT, USA, etc.) to suspend more civil 
liberties, the issue is NOT whether we are coddling the terrorists or 
excusing criminal behavior.

The issue is the power we are letting the thugs have.

A government which has the power to deport people (citizens, even) to 
concentration camps, to raid houses without proper presentation of 
search warrants, to order all mail searched and scanned without warrant, 
to ban writing in forms the surveillance agencies cannot read, to hold 
several hundred A-Rabs without charges and without plausible evidence 
that they know anything significant, that government is totalitarian. 
Plain and simple, it is totalitarian.

To repeat, the "personal libertarian" looks at _all_ laws in terms of 
what enforcement could mean to _him_.

And he always thinks in terms of vengeance.

--Tim May, Citizen-unit of of the once free United States
" The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood 
of patriots & tyrants. "--Thomas Jefferson, 1787




From freematt at coil.com  Wed Oct 17 10:38:27 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 13:38:27 -0400
Subject: Larry Ellison's ID card idea attracts high-level support
Message-ID: 


[Note from Matthew Gaylor:  Considering that the show your papers 
routine had already been implemented complete with yellow Star of 
David armbands, I'm one civil libertarian who will never "come 
around".]



Posted at 10:53 p.m. PDT Tuesday, Oct. 16, 2001
ID card idea attracts high-level support
Top executives, lawmakers back national identification card proposal

BY ELISE ACKERMAN AND PAUL ROGERS
Mercury News

Silicon Valley software mogul Larry Ellison's proposal to create a 
national ID card has gained substantial ground -- and the interest of 
top Bush administration officials -- in a signal that the 
controversial idea may be closer to reality than ever.

In an interview with the Mercury News on Tuesday night, Ellison, the 
chairman and CEO of Oracle, said he met with U.S. Attorney General 
John Ashcroft and officials at the CIA and FBI in Washington, D.C., 
over the past week to discuss the idea. U.S. Sen. Dianne Feinstein, 
D-Calif., has endorsed it, other tech executives have jumped on board 
and even some prominent civil libertarians have said the idea is 
worth pursuing.

[...]

``You don't give up much,'' Dershowitz said. ``Civil libertarians 
will come around.''

[...]


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From tcmay at got.net  Wed Oct 17 13:59:28 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 13:59:28 -0700
Subject: Who represents the detained? Nobody...
In-Reply-To: <20011017165321.B15005@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: 


On Wednesday, October 17, 2001, at 01:53 PM, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Naturally the thin legal fiction of having a lawyer technically
> representing you, no matter whether you've been able to speak with him
> or exchange any useful information, makes any brutal prison regime
> an acceptable one. No matter that the Washington Post article, which
> started this thread, did not say that all post-Sep.11 detainees have
> lawyers, and there is reason to believe some do not.

Of the 600+ being held without charges, bail, lawyers, etc., wanna bet 
that about 500+ of them will never be charged, never give any useful 
information? This was a "panic sweep," a "round up all the suspects" 
case, a shotgun blast of arresting anyone with any imagined, guessed, or 
coincidence in names connection with the likely attackers (and since 
many of those in the 4 planes were believed to be using stolen 
passports, even the coincidence in names is even more coincidental).

Anyway, as Declan says, this is being covered in newspaper stories. (No 
coverage that I've seen in a hundreds of hours of coverage on CNN, 
MSNBC, Fox, ABC, CBS, or NBC. None. Just vague mentions of "several 
hundred detainees.")

The issue is not "coddling the terrorists," the issue is the expansion 
over decades of police powers to the point where "speedy trial" and 
"jury of peers" and "due process" means nothing.

I expect King George would have loved to have these kinds of police 
powers: if Patrick Henry is causing troubles in the colonies, but no 
grounds for arresting him can be found, just arrest him and hold him 
indefinitely as a "material witness." And don't "coddle" him! That'll 
take care of the uppity colonists and their quaint talk about liberty.

And King George _really_ would have been thrilled to have the Nazi-like 
powers to put a hundred thousand persons of some ethnic background into 
concentration camps!



--Tim May
"You don't expect governments to obey the law because of some higher 
moral development. You expect them to obey the law because they know 
that if they don't, those who aren't shot will be hanged." - -Michael 
Shirley




From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org  Wed Oct 17 11:00:17 2001
From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 14:00:17 -0400
Subject: [NEWS] FBI To Require ISPs To Reconfigure E-mail Systems (fwd)
References: <5.0.2.1.1.20011017092308.034b0070@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <3BCDC731.9020503@dragonsweb.org>


Bill Stewart wrote:

> David Lesher  sent the following to 
> CYBERIA-L at LISTSERV.AOL.COM
> -------------------
> 
> National Journal's Technology Daily
> 
> PM Edition
> 
> October 16, 2001
> 
> HEADLINE: PRIVACY: FBI To Require ISPs To Reconfigure E-mail Systems
> 
> PHOENIX -- The FBI is in the process of finalizing technical
> guidelines that would require all Internet service providers (ISPS) to
> reconfigure their e-mail systems so they could be more easily
> accessible to law enforcers. The move, to be completed over the next
> two months, would cause ISPs to act as phone companies do to comply
> with a 1994 digital-wiretapping law. "They are in the process of
> developing a very detailed set of standards for how to make packet
> data" available to the FBI, said Stewart Baker, an attorney at Steptoe
> & Johnson who was formerly the chief counsel to the National Security
> Agency (NSA).
> 
> The proposal is not a part of the anti-terrorism legislation currently
> before Congress because the agency is expected to argue that the
> Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act (CALEA) already
> grants it the authority to impose the requirement, Baker said. He
> added that some ISPs already meet the requirements.
> 
> Baker, who frequently represents Internet companies being asked to
> conduct electronic surveillance for the FBI, made the revelation
> Tuesday in a panel discussion at the Agenda 2002 conference here on
> how the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks are likely to affect the technology
> industry and civil liberties. He elaborated on the plan in an
> interview.
> 
> Such a stance could result in considerable cost to many ISPs, and it
> would constitute a reversal of previous government policy, which held
> that ISPs are not subject to CALEA's requirements. But Baker also said
> "it has been a long-term goal of the FBI and is not just a reaction to
> Sept. 11."
> 
> Mitchell Kapor, chairman of the Open Source Application Foundation and
> a founder of Lotus Development, also spoke on the panel. Kapor also
> started the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) and has been a vocal
> advocate of Internet privacy. EFF played a significant role in the
> CALEA debate, and divisions over whether to support that law led to a
> split of the organization.
> 
> "Under the cover of people's outrage [over the terrorist attacks] and
> desire for revenge, lots of things that have been defeated before have
> been brought back in [to the anti-terrorism legislation] without a
> demonstration that the lack of appropriate law is a problem," Kapor
> said in an interview. But on the whole, Kapor and Baker shared more
> common ground on the acceptability of new electronic surveillance than
> they had in the past, with both expressing the view that now is a time
> for calm reconsideration of positions rather than butting horns over
> the details of how civil liberties would be curtailed by an
> anti-terrorism bill.
> 
> "I find myself more in the middle than I used to because my identity
> in life is not as a civil liberties advocate," Kapor said. "Part is
> being an American and a world citizen." Baker said it was entirely
> appropriate for the FBI to conduct far more surveillance.
> 
> "What has changed [since Sept. 11] is the view of the technology
> community," Baker said. "I used to get calls like, 'How can I beat the
> NSA?'" said Baker. "Now, people call and say, 'I have this great idea
> that would help NSA,' or, 'I want to go volunteer and do outreach on
> behalf of the FBI or NSA.' There is a real change of people's view
> about who the bad guys are."
> 
> .
> 
> 
> -- 
> A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz at nrk.com
> & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
> Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
> is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
> 
> 
> **********************************************************************
> For Listserv Instructions, see http://www.lawlists.net/cyberia
> Off-Topic threads: http://www.lawlists.net/mailman/listinfo/cyberia-ot
> Need more help? Send mail to: Cyberia-L-Request at listserv.aol.com
> **********************************************************************
> 
> 

CALEA is just one ratchet-tooth that needs to be stripped. This shit is 
routinely abused for purposes that have absolutely nothing to do with 
bona-fide law enforcement or court proceedings, and often in blatant 
violation of laws. No time for war stories, however.

There may come a time when people will question Tim May's restraint.

In the meantime, the following phrase may come in handy in concievable 
situations: "Go fuck yourself"

Punctuate as required.

jbdigriz






From gbroiles at well.com  Wed Oct 17 14:12:47 2001
From: gbroiles at well.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 14:12:47 -0700
Subject: More coverage of Larry Ellison's fascism
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3BCDB53C.F6608518@sarin.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011017135343.03c96080@bivens.parrhesia.com>


At 11:00 AM 10/17/2001 -0700, Tim May wrote:

>(* Ellison says he will "give away the software," but he doesn't say to 
>whom, or how agencies required to interact with the software will get 
>their copies, or who will do the maintenance, etc. He is obviously looking 
>for Oracle to give away some free copies but then be the Official Supplier 
>to Big Brother. State capitalism in its most obvious form.)

Indeed. Actually, in the third quarter of 2001, Oracle made 67% of its 
revenues from consulting and services, and only 33% of its revenue from 
licensing, according to their 10-Q SEC filing. (The split was 64/36 for 
service/licensing in Q3 2000).

As the Mercury News article says ..

>Ellison said that if he does donate the software, maintenance and upgrades 
>won't be free.
>
>``I don't think the government has any trouble paying for the labor 
>associated with the software,'' he said. ``I made this offer not because 
>the government can't afford to pay for the software, but because I shut up 
>the critics who were saying, `Gee, Larry Ellison wants to build a national 
>database because he wants to sell more databases,' which is pretty cynical 
>and bizarre. What's in it for me is the same thing that's in it for you: a 
>safer America.''

.. so basically he'll give the USG a one-time break on the software 
purchase, but they'll pay full rate for the consulting to get it up and 
running, and for maintenance thereafter, which would easily run into the 
billions of dollars, given the scope of this project, the size of the 
database, and the uptime/performance requirements a realistic 
implementation would call for.

What an asshole.

Oracle talked the City of Oakland into adopting Oracle Financials to run 
the city's books and payroll - the project ran months over deadline (past 
1/1/2000, even though it was being installed to fix a Y2K problem with the 
existing installation), resulted in withholding errors and missed paychecks 
for city workers, missing reports for budget purposes, and generally 
created an administrative and accounting nightmare. Deep into the project, 
the Oracle consultants admitted that they'd promised to do things for 
Oakland that they'd never done before, that they weren't sure how long it 
would take to finish, or if the promised functionality would ever be 
delivered.

I don't know if they ever finished.

And now they want to do *that* with a National ID database - so the 
taxpayers get screwed three times - once paying for it, once because it's 
inaccurate, and once because it's a fucking fascist nightmare.

Now all we need are Ross Perot and/or EDS and/or IBM telling us they can do 
the same thing but cheaper and faster.


--
Greg Broiles
gbroiles at well.com
"We have found and closed the thing you watch us with." -- New Delhi street kids




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Wed Oct 17 11:15:57 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 14:15:57 -0400
Subject: ChefPunks
Message-ID: 


> Harmon Seaver[SMTP:hseaver at cybershamanix.com] wrote:
> 
> 
>         I'm not understanding the comments about wetness affecting mail
> in a pressure cooker -- using it as an autoclave, that is. I would
> assume anyone doing this would put the perishable objects in a
> waterproof container, such as a canning jar. You can get them in 1/2
> gallon size. And I'm sure there are any number of steel, aluminum, etc.
> waterproof containers that would work as well.
> 
> Harmon Seaver, MLIS
> 
The whole point of an autoclave is that the superheated steam and
condesing superheated water drops transfer heat to the target faster
than simple hot air at 1 atm. 

Putting the material to be sterilized in a waterproof container defeats
this goal. Putting it in a pressure tight container such as a canning
jar is doubley futile - either the superheated steam and water won't
get to the material to be sterilized, or the container will fail 
catastrophically.

Autoclaving ain't for delicate materials. Irradiation would be a 
better bet. Anthrax spores are (so I've heard) pretty sensitive to 
UV, so ionizing radiation may not be neccesary.

Peter Trei




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Wed Oct 17 06:20:14 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 14:20:14 +0100
Subject: ChefPunks
References: <3BCC84CE.BCA85093@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <3BCD858E.B62F51C@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


mmotyka at lsil.com wrote:
> 
> ichudov at Algebra.Com (Igor Chudov) wrote :
> >
> >One thing I would like to buy is a pressure cooker.
> >
> I have found them to be of little use. Save some $, try a garage sale.

I used to use them a lot. Great for beans et.c  And not as expensive as
a goode steamer :-)


[...]

> >> > Try your regular stove. Set it to, say, 400 degrees and pray that the papers
> >> > will remain legible. I'd prbobably be more likely to be attacked by meteorites
> >> > or abducted by aliens than be anthraxed via mail, but *if* I had to
> >> > sterilize mail,
> >> > I would use a stove.
> >>
> >> In labs an autoclave is used to sterilize everything.
> >>
> >> Autoclaves are basically pressure cookers, high pressure steam at 121
> >> deg. Celsius and ~2 Bar kill everything.
> >>
> >
> If 121C is adequate why not use the same temperature in your oven? I
> doubt the absolute pressure matters.

Pressure cooker much faster to heat up. Also for large samples the water
adds heat to sample faster - food in an oven at 200 degrees is often not
much more than 100 inside while the outside is already roasting.
Personally I would quite like to keep microbiological samples separate
from my cooking equipment :-)

 
> A nitrogen atmosphere might be a good thing to reduce oxidation of inks
> and paper. I doubt it would help your new Visa card though.

But oxygen is just the thing to be nasty to bacteria.  Hit them with
activated oxygen. Peroxide works wonders - kills all known bacteria
(yes, even spores) and doesn't permanently damage the environment :-)




From jya at pipeline.com  Wed Oct 17 14:22:39 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 14:22:39 -0700
Subject: [NEWS] FBI To Require ISPs To Reconfigure E-mail Systems 
  (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <200110171828.OAA05565@granger.mail.mindspring.net>


I believe this report refers to FBI guidelines being worked out 
with telecommunication carriers described in here:

  http://cryptome.org/fbi-flexguide2.htm

Original date of compliance with these guidelines was
September 24, 2001, but the FCC granted an extension
to a time to be set for each service provider in consultation 
with the FBI. That FCC order is with the the file above.

This should not diminish the fact that Stewart Baker is
a lying son of a bitch about why his clients came to him,
in accord with best legal ethics, and which has got him
featured on the citizen wahoo watch list. Mitch Kapor, 
I dunno, he's not on the citizen list but maybe the TLA's 
wahoo list.

Getting wahooed to gain entrance to inner circles is fun
stuff until it dawns there's no exit from being watched 
very carefully for betrayal except by extreme wahoo. 
Baker is one of the messengers about this intended 
consequence.

Oversight committees have learned to live with this
official terrorism as Bruce recommends for all us
based on his experience.

Exception to the rule: Whit Diffie.




From frissell at panix.com  Wed Oct 17 11:26:50 2001
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 14:26:50 -0400
Subject: Who represents the detained? Nobody...
In-Reply-To: <40E46FCC-C1E4-11D5-9C6B-0050E439C473@got.net>
References: <200110160256.TAA27515@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011017103115.03f3a350@brillig.panix.com>


At 08:16 PM 10/15/01 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>On Monday, October 15, 2001, at 07:56 PM, Anonymous wrote:
>
>>You all, including Mr. May, missed the subtlety of the point that
>>due process has NOT been suspended in the case of these detainees.
>>
>>They HAVE representation, and I don't THINK the Bill
>>of Rights says anywhere that you get to see Mommy
>>if you're arrested, but that you can obtain
>>representation, you are not required to incriminate
>>yourself, and so forth.  In theory.
>
>Get a clue. The issue is not "get to see Mommy."
>
>Rather, the issue is the holding of 600+ various persons, some of whom are 
>very vaguely claimed to be "material witnesses."


Note too that many of the detained may not have lawyers.  Most of them are 
not being held on criminal charges.  They are held as material witnesses or 
on immigration holds.  I don't know if a material witness has a right to an 
attorney but immigration offenses are civil not criminal matters (in most 
cases) and thus the prisoners have to pay for their own lawyers which means 
that those who have no money have to find lawyers and convince them to work 
for free and to spend their own money chasing their clients around the 
country as they are moved.

DCF




From freematt at coil.com  Wed Oct 17 11:27:28 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 14:27:28 -0400
Subject: DOJ "background briefing" on Emerson gun case today
Message-ID: 


Matt -. You didn't get this from me.  [Note from Matt Gaylor:  Get 
this from who?]


FOR PLANNING PURPOSES ONLY - NOT FOR RELEASE AG
WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 17, 2001
(202) 616-2777
TDD (202) 514-1888
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE TO HOLD BACKGROUND BRIEFING

REGARDING THE EMERSON CASE WASHINGTON, D.C. - Department of Justice 
officials will hold a background briefing regarding yesterday's 5th 
Circuit decision in the Emerson case TODAY, Wednesday, October 17 at 
2:00 p.m.
WHAT:              Background briefing with DOJ officials
WHEN:TODAY, Wednesday,October17, 2:00pm

WHERE:Department of Justice
Public Affairs Conference Room
Room 1254
950 Pennsylvania Ave, NW
Washington, DC 20530 ### 01-539

**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week)
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**************************************************************************




From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Wed Oct 17 12:28:31 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 14:28:31 -0500
Subject: ChefPunks
References: 
Message-ID: <3BCDDBD4.1D25B54@cybershamanix.com>


      I can see you haven't autoclaved much stuff.  Or even done any
canning.
  I grow mushrooms of various sorts -- maitake, shitake, sulfurshelf, etc.
-- and I can assure you that there is a lot of stuff that needs to be
autoclaved that you definitely don't want to get wet. Autoclaving is no
different than canning, and you need to seal both to stop water from
entering the item, and/or from the stuff in the jar getting out.


"Trei, Peter" wrote:

> > Harmon Seaver[SMTP:hseaver at cybershamanix.com] wrote:
> >
> >
> >         I'm not understanding the comments about wetness affecting mail
> > in a pressure cooker -- using it as an autoclave, that is. I would
> > assume anyone doing this would put the perishable objects in a
> > waterproof container, such as a canning jar. You can get them in 1/2
> > gallon size. And I'm sure there are any number of steel, aluminum, etc.
> > waterproof containers that would work as well.
> >
> > Harmon Seaver, MLIS
> >
> The whole point of an autoclave is that the superheated steam and
> condesing superheated water drops transfer heat to the target faster
> than simple hot air at 1 atm.
>
> Putting the material to be sterilized in a waterproof container defeats
> this goal. Putting it in a pressure tight container such as a canning
> jar is doubley futile - either the superheated steam and water won't
> get to the material to be sterilized, or the container will fail
> catastrophically.
>
> Autoclaving ain't for delicate materials. Irradiation would be a
> better bet. Anthrax spores are (so I've heard) pretty sensitive to
> UV, so ionizing radiation may not be neccesary.
>
> Peter Trei

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver at cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html




From anonymous at anonymizer.com  Wed Oct 17 14:40:00 2001
From: anonymous at anonymizer.com (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 14:40 -0700
Subject: Who represents the detained? Nobody...
Message-ID: <200110172140.OAA25734@sirius.infonex.com>


It's nice that there's a forum available to you 
where you are free to assert and assume whatever 
you wish, without the inconvenience of any 
substantiation.



>
>Naturally the thin legal fiction of having a lawyer technically
>representing you, no matter whether you've been able to speak with him

They were allowed to speak

>or exchange any useful information, 

How do you know what information was discussed?

>makes any brutal prison regime
>an acceptable one. No matter that the Washington Post article, which
>started this thread, did not say that all post-Sep.11 detainees have
>lawyers, and there is reason to believe some do not.

You are free to believe whatever you wish.  But that's not a
standard of proof that means anything.

Personal belief, supposition, unsubstantiated assertion.  
I'm glad we're not talking about anything like you'd
see in a star chamber or brutal prison regime.  Glad
you exhibit a pristine standard of evidence in
contrast to those you revile.  Hypocrite.


>
>-Declan
>
>
>On Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 12:55:00PM -0700, Anonymous wrote:
>> >>>They HAVE representation, and I don't THINK the




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Wed Oct 17 06:49:44 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 14:49:44 +0100
Subject: .mil censor$ commerc. satellite imagery
References: <5.0.2.1.1.20011016120518.038e31f0@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <3BCD8C78.8C6B8E0E@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Bill Stewart wrote:

[...]
 
> One of the Internet map sites, I think Mapquest, also has
> aerial photos for many US areas.  I'm not sure if they're satellite
> or if they're airplane-based.  It's good enough to clearly make out
> my condo complex, including the pool, and the image shows a
> purple blob on the street that may be my car.  Amazing stuff, and free,
> though it doesn't cover the whole US.


Multimap has that for the UK.  From planes I'm pretty sure.

http://www.multimap.com/map/photo.cgi?client=europe&scale=1000&X=529700&Y=182000&width=700&height=410&gride=0&gridn=0
has the building I work in.  Windows on upper stories clearly visible.
As are cars and vans in the street  - of course they are where they
where when the picture was taken, which was sometime before summer 2000
going by the building works in the British Museum at the bottom of the
street.

Also proper maps, with contours and buildings and field boundaries and
so on.  

It makes you wonder why anyone made a fuss about Arab-looking folk
taking photos of airfields and dams.

Ken Brown




From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Oct 16 21:49:57 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 14:49:57 +1000
Subject: Assassination Politics" federal prosecutor assassinated 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011017144102.00a68c80@pop.useoz.com>


Declan suspect as was away for 3 days via Virginia and maryland(cia + nsa)
Comped scribbler subscribes to view"Ill supply the pictures AND the war"

John says euthanize all information.Its a bit late for me as they snatched 
my laptop 4 months ago.
Ill have to rely on testimony from sandy sandfort to save me.OH NELLIE!

If tim 'Im so macho,Im suspicious'may once said that AP is a long shot.What 
better time to try it?
If you meant it for usama,I doubt a jury in the world would 
convict,specially if it was only for 1$




From declan at well.com  Wed Oct 17 12:00:17 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 15:00:17 -0400
Subject: [NEWS] FBI To Require ISPs To Reconfigure E-mail Systems
  (fwd)
In-Reply-To: ; from
  gil_hamilton@hotmail.com on Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 05:47:25PM +0000
References: 
Message-ID: <20011017150017.B10420@cluebot.com>


On Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 05:47:25PM +0000, Gil Hamilton wrote:
> At least you know where Baker stands.  And it ain't on the side of
> liberty!  (I *would* like to know why an ISP would hire Baker to
> represent them when FBI is asking them to conduct electronic
> surveillance; that seems a bit like asking the fox to help guard the
> henhouse.)

There's a long tradition of former spook-fed-law-enforcement-prosecutor
types being hired by the private sector. A few years ago Baker was
being paid to fill out export applications for Netscape etc. Now he's
doing this. No surprise.

-Declan




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Wed Oct 17 12:02:11 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 15:02:11 -0400
Subject: Anodyne for sore feet
References: <200110171811.f9HIBHW88756@mailserver1.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: <3BCDD5B3.674C1994@acmenet.net>


keyser-soze at hushmail.com wrote:
> 
> All that recent stepping on our civil liberties must have left more than a few of our Congressmen with tender feet.  I say we send them some Dr. Scholls relief.

Send them Dr Kopsch relief, instead.

(Kopsch was one of the inventors of the teflon-coated, bullet-proof
vest-defeating bullet.)

Several of our elected wonders (eg, Maryland Gov Glendening, or Tejada
et al in Rhode Island) are pushing for laws restricting the purchase,
ownership, or use of bullet-proof vests without a permit. These
proposals generally have exemptions for LEOs, judges, and, of course,
elected officials.


-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 17 15:31:08 2001
From: sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com (sonofgomez709)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 15:31:08 -0700
Subject: Glad You Never Asked...
Message-ID: <001901c1575b$6fbbbea0$220da2cd@vaio>

The current 'Anthrax Crisis' was easily predictable merely by
taking note of the preprogramming preparation of the 
citizens by the MainStreamDream NewsMedia.

Anyone who believes that the step-by-step march
towards the NewWorldOdor is not part of the
GreaterPlan needs to contemplate the BioSemiotic
rEvolution....

CJ Parker 
http://profiles.yahoo.com/sonofgomez709
http://www.technopagan.org/politics/xenix/
http://members.w-link.net/~sog/INDEX.HTM
http://jya.com/cejfiles.htm

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From oa at acm.org  Wed Oct 17 16:05:56 2001
From: oa at acm.org (Optimizzin Al-gorithm)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 16:05:56 -0700
Subject: hoaxing, anonymity, traceability, unabomb crypto
Message-ID: <3BCE0ED3.F5A6E095@acm.org>


Remember not only to wear gloves when Anthraxing,
but to obtain your common materials from another city visited
tracelessly.  The prints of the salesclerks can give you away.
Maybe wash the paper in solvents?

This is why Ted K. sanded all the parts of his gizmos, even
though he wore gloves, ---to erase others' prints.  According
to the book by Shores & Waits.

Ted K. also encrypted his 'queerer' (more incriminating) stuff, with a
homemade cipher,
but he included the "key" amongst his written materials.  Classic
mistake.  [Alas
more details of algorithm not given; maybe strike up a written
correspondance with TK?]


-----
Anthrax by Gatorade: Is it in you?




From oa at acm.org  Wed Oct 17 16:09:41 2001
From: oa at acm.org (Optimizzin Al-gorithm)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 16:09:41 -0700
Subject: Company sends powder via mail; USPO says OK
Message-ID: <3BCE0FB5.1C9D0D59@acm.org>


Lets see... anything labelled 720 Winners Circle, St. Cloud, Minn is
safe?
What part of "social engineering" don't you understand?

Packet-routed networks are networks, and addresses can be spoofed.

----------

Postal Service Informs of Mailings

                  The Associated Press
                  Wednesday, Oct. 17, 2001; 1:39 p.m. EDT

                  ST. PAUL, Minn.  With fears of anthrax in the mail
running high, postal
                  inspectors in St. Paul have given their colleagues a
heads-up that
                  Publishers Clearinghouse is sending out packages of
powdered detergent.

                  "There's nothing to be alarmed about in that package,"
Inspector Jeanne
                  Graupman said. She added: "Just the timing of it
wasn't very good."

                  The Oxyclean household cleanser is being sent out in
1=-pound packages
                  with the return address 720 Winners Circle, St. Cloud,
Minn.

                  The St. Paul Postal Inspection Service issued an
advisory to inspectors
                  Tuesday. Graupman said she sent the memo after postal
inspectors got a
                  call from a worried customer who had received a leaky
package of the
                  powder.

                  Chris Irving, senior director of consumer affairs for
Publishers
                  Clearinghouse in Port Washington, N.Y., said Oxyclean
is being mailed
                  only to customers who ordered it.

                  Publishers Clearinghouse sells household items in
addition to magazine
                  subscriptions.




From shields at msrl.com  Wed Oct 17 09:18:13 2001
From: shields at msrl.com (Michael Shields)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 16:18:13 +0000
Subject: Martial law supposedly implemented in the US
In-Reply-To: <5B4EB71E-C28E-11D5-B48C-0050E439C473@got.net> (Tim May's
  message of "Tue, 16 Oct 2001 16:34:34 -0700")
References: <5B4EB71E-C28E-11D5-B48C-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <87wv1u1bqy.fsf@challah.msrl.com>


In article <5B4EB71E-C28E-11D5-B48C-0050E439C473 at got.net>,
Tim May  wrote:
> However, America operates on the ratchet principle: the tightening of
> liberties _always_ proceeds in the forward direction. Each new crisis,
> each new emergency order, each new federal agency, each new
> law...everything cranks the ratchet wheel toward less liberty.

I agree this is the general direction, but I think there are some
major exceptions; for example, the doctrine of prior restraint was not
established in court until 1931.
-- 
Shields.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Oct 17 14:18:59 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 16:18:59 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: The "traitor" fires back
In-Reply-To: <87sncijsjq.fsf@piracy.red-bean.com>
Message-ID: 



On 17 Oct 2001, Craig Brozefsky wrote:

> Jim Choate  writes:

> > Never been anything like it indeed. More hand waving spin doctor bullshit.
> 
> Could you elaborate?  I'm failing to see the hand-waving and
> spin-doctor bullshit.

Try a history book on women rights, or better yet look into some of the
studies about African and S. American beliefs.

In short, read some history. You'll find that this isn't out of the
ordinary at all.

"Barefoot and pregnant"...


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 17 16:36:06 2001
From: sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com (sonofgomez709)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 16:36:06 -0700
Subject: Fuck Thomas Wales, and Fuck His Whole Family....l
Message-ID: <002501c15764$82e55be0$220da2cd@vaio>

I'm sure all of the 'nice' things you say about the federal
prosecutor who was recently removed from office are true.

However, since he had a part in my being tortured in a
seatac federal prison while being denied even the most
basic of constitutional rights, I believe that whatever fate
he met was undoubtedly the result of his having made
a choice to actively participate in the abuses of justice
and basic human decency which are endemic in the
Western District of Washington federal courts.

It is not surprising that Thomas Wales was extremist in
his views of the need to disarm the American Citizens,
since the crimes being committed by himself and his
coworkerconspirators were being done at gunpoint, thus
allowing them to shit all over justice and the constitution
with impunity in the course of their PerseProsExecutions
of their victims.

I am certain that the one-sided garbage you write about
these criminals will serve to maintain your world view --
 which cannot survive the reality of accepting that perhaps
hiding the atrocities being committed by the average
GoodGuy   in Imaginary
America will not be sufficient to protect them from
the fact that we reap what we sow...

Your hypocrisy, OfCourseOfCourse [TM], lies in the fact
that eWe and your ilk are so quick to place responsibility
for the fate of the PerseProsExecuted on their own 
decisions and actions, while completely ignoring this
aspect of Reality [TM] in regard to those who maintain
your Imaginary Ameri%a by the use of guns and the
abuse of the citizenry.


CJ Parker 
"Proud To Be A Felon In Ameri%a" ['%' Is For SWASTIKA!]
http://profiles.yahoo.com/sonofgomez709
http://www.technopagan.org/politics/xenix/
http://members.w-link.net/~sog/INDEX.HTM
http://jya.com/cejfiles.htm

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From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Oct 17 14:40:17 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 16:40:17 -0500
Subject: WorldNetDaily: Protecting freedom
Message-ID: <3BCDFAC1.9433C3B7@ssz.com>


http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=24958
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Wed Oct 17 16:44:16 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 16:44:16 -0700
Subject: NOW IT'S PERSONAL...
Message-ID: 


C'punks,

So I head out before 7 this morning so I can do my civic duty as a juror
(don't ask).  I go down into the BART station* to await a train.  A train to
another destination pulls into the platform, stops and sits... and sits...
and sits.

Finally, a voice comes over the intercom and tells everybody to get off the
train because it is going out of service.  It seems someone reported "white
powder" on the train.  Jee-zus!  The bad guys have already won if this sort
of irrational panic has become the order of the day.

Later in the jury room, I discovered some "white powder" on the coffee
stand.  Instead of having the federal building cleared, I scooped some of it
up with my finger and did a quick taste test.  Verdict:  Sweet n Low.   (Now
I've got these terrible flu symptoms...)


 S a n d y

*"Bay Area Rapid Transit" for those not familiar with San Francisco.




From declan at well.com  Wed Oct 17 16:44:49 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 16:44:49 -0700
Subject: Congress in action! Catfish feed!
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20011017164243.024cc250@mail.well.com>


While anthrax-terror stalks the halls of power in Washington, and the House 
shuts down amid fears of spores in the air, top politicians are busy 
gulping down fried catfish with protectionist lobbyists. I can't make this 
stuff up, folks. This just-announced "feed" happened at noon today. --Declan

AGRICULTURE
and the Catfish Farmers of America
First annual "Bipartisan Catfish Feed," to showcase the U.S. farm raised
catfish industry which is threatened by fraudulently labeled Vietnamese
fish imports.
Participants: Sen. Blanche Lambert Lincoln, D-Ark.; Sen.
     Tim Hutchinson, R-Ark.; Sen. Thad Cochran,
     R-Miss.; Sen. Trent Lott, R-Miss., Minority
     Leader=; Sen. John Breaux, D-La., chairman,
     Special Committee on Aging=; Sen. Mary Landrieu,
     D-La.; Sen. Richard Shelby, R-Ala., and Sen.
     Jeff Sessions, R-Ala.
Location: 325 Russell Senate Office Building. 12 noon
Contact: RSVP to Jeretta Walker, 202-312-1084; Craig
     Brownstein, 202-326-1799
**NEW**




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Wed Oct 17 16:48:26 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 16:48:26 -0700
Subject: Kill Killfile
In-Reply-To: <200110172326.TAA25526@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: 


John Young wrote:

> And another excellent quality of cpunks...is
> the number of its outstanding writers sent
> to jail...

Offhand, I can't think of one outstanding C'punk writer who has gone to
jail.  Hell, they haven't even put John in jail.


 S a n d y




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Oct 17 14:52:45 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 16:52:45 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Detainees, Personal Libertarianism, and Vengeance
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Once again Tim shows how little he really does understand...

On Wed, 17 Oct 2001, Tim May wrote:

> while now, but haven't until now worked up the energy. (The fact that so 
> many of the Cypherpunks list subscribers are weirdos posting crap from 
> Hushmail and other throwaway accounts is also a factor. Perl before 
> swine, in a sense.)

> _their_ rights. The issue is about _my_ rights.

'their' rights ARE 'your' rights.

> cell for 5 weeks?"  (My view, expressed earlier, is that I would seek 
> vengeance. I would seek ways to kill the guards, the judges, the cops, 
> the bureaucrats, everyone involved in my "kidnapping.")

> appeal...just seizure of your property and transport to a KZ."  (I'm 
> surprised the Japanese-ancestry persons, hundreds of thousands of them, 
> were so meek. I'm surprised that thousands of former guards and judges 
> and processing officials were not assassinated during the 1950s as 
> payback. The Nuremberg case established, cough cough, that "just 
> following orders" is not a defense. Every single one of the guards and 
> officials at Manzanar deserved to be killed for his crimes. Even by 
> killing a dozen of the guards, and judges, something would have been 
> accomplished.)


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From declan at well.com  Wed Oct 17 13:53:21 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 16:53:21 -0400
Subject: Who represents the detained? Nobody...
In-Reply-To: <200110171955.MAA17672@sirius.infonex.com>; from
  anonymous@anonymizer.com on Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 12:55:00PM -0700
References: <200110171955.MAA17672@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <20011017165321.B15005@cluebot.com>


Naturally the thin legal fiction of having a lawyer technically
representing you, no matter whether you've been able to speak with him
or exchange any useful information, makes any brutal prison regime
an acceptable one. No matter that the Washington Post article, which
started this thread, did not say that all post-Sep.11 detainees have
lawyers, and there is reason to believe some do not.

-Declan


On Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 12:55:00PM -0700, Anonymous wrote:
> >>>They HAVE representation, and I don't THINK the Bill
> >>>of Rights says anywhere that you get to see Mommy
> >>>if you're arrested, but that you can obtain
> >>>representation, you are not required to incriminate
> >>>yourself, and so forth.  In theory.
> >>
> >>Get a clue. The issue is not "get to see Mommy."
> >>
> >>Rather, the issue is the holding of 600+ various persons, some of whom are 
> >>very vaguely claimed to be "material witnesses."
> >
> >
> >Note too that many of the detained 
> >may not have lawyers.  
> 
> How about we play "let's hypothesize the conditions that 
> make our argument true."  That saves having to ground your reasoning in reality.
> 
> The Washington Post article says "and limited access to their lawyers"....
> and "The Justice Department has also refused to reveal the names of the 
> lawyers representing them."
> 
> At least they have lawyers, don't you get the point?
> The dead had no lawyers to argue for thier lives.
> 
> "That process is supervised by a court."
> The dead had no judge supervising their execution.
> 
> >Most of them are 
> >not being held on criminal charges.  They are held as material witnesses or 
> >on immigration holds.  
> >I don't know if a material witness has a right to an 
> 
> Then you don't know what you're arguing, do you?
> Pick your battles.
> 
> Wiretapping expansion, big problem, 
> 
> Lack of luxury accomodations for material witnesses
> who are at the least crucial information resources and
> may be co-conspirators, little problem.




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Oct 17 16:55:26 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 16:55:26 -0700
Subject: Corporate war on liberty
In-Reply-To: <3BCE0387.A76741CC@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <6FF51FC1-C35A-11D5-943C-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Wednesday, October 17, 2001, at 03:18 PM, Harmon Seaver wrote:

> Greg Broiles wrote:
>
>>
>> Now all we need are Ross Perot and/or EDS and/or IBM telling us they 
>> can do
>> the same thing but cheaper and faster.
>>
>> --
>> Greg Broiles
>> gbroiles at well.com
>> "We have found and closed the thing you watch us with." -- New Delhi 
>> street kids
>
>        Well, Sun already did that. Which is a *real* drag for me -- 
> since
> boycotting Sun certainly cuts off a large number of job opportunities. 
> Sigh!
>       Although maybe it'll turn out to be a real boost for linux.  8-)

All of these fuckers are trying to show the flag by repressing liberties.

Coming soon,

"MyEscowedYahoo (TM), the new account management and news tracking 
system from Yahoo, Inc. "We report your account balances and special 
news interests to the government so you don't have to!"

"IntelInside (TM), Intel's contribution to the War on Terrorism and Bad 
People. Intel, through its proprietary TrackBurst (TM) technology, 
reports the location of laptops and PDAs to the FBI through an iGPS 
(Intel GPS) module integrate into all i840 motherboards. Those who have 
something to hide should buy AMD!"

"Not be outdone in this war on liberty, AMD announces QuantiLiberty, the 
fractional liberty positional escrow system. We not only report your 
position, we also anticipate your future movements by examining your 
daily calendars!"

It's 10 p.m....does the government  know where you are?


--Tim May, Occupied America
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety 
deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759.




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Wed Oct 17 16:56:40 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 16:56:40 -0700
Subject: Non-verbal IQ testing
In-Reply-To: <20011017232836.16188.qmail@sidereal.kz>
Message-ID: 


"Dr. Evil" wrote:

> What methods are there for doing non-verbal,
> cross-cultural IQ tests?

Either Shockley or Jensen (I always get those two confused) came up with a
purely PHYSICAL IQ test the had a very high correlation with standard IQ
tests.  It involved a reaction speed test that had to do with pushing
buttons when lights flashed or some such.  It contained no possible cultural
bias, yet support the findings of standard tests in that it showed a
statistical difference in IQ between different racial groups.  (I.e., the
average scores for Asians was higher than that of Caucasians which was
higher than for Blacks.)  Predictably, the test was denounced by the
Politically Correct, but without any substantive critique of the test
itself.


 S a n d y




From anonymous at remailer.havenco.com  Wed Oct 17 10:03:44 2001
From: anonymous at remailer.havenco.com (Anonymous User)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 17:03:44 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: More on "venus rising"
Message-ID: <9a1b0fb7d014a9a7b1784ab1e93b9a60@remailer.havenco.com>


 > On Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 10:40:40AM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> > stuff about zero point energy and perpetual motion machines. And,
> >  sometimes, mixed together with the usual nutcase stuff about the
> > Hollow  Earth theory (zeta reticulans colonizing the hollow
> > earth, Greys,  underground UFO bases, secret Nazi weapons, etc.).
> 
> Righto. It's a staple of the UFO fringe. See:
>  
> And then there was this, which I wrote 2.5 years ago. Some folks,
> including I believe Tim, said at the time that I was being too
> uncritical, and looking back, they was right. It's a little painful
> to read; at the very least I should have reversed the order of the
> article.

You do realise, that this is what the ufo field is about?
+Sightings And Encounters and the influence this has had on our
planet.
-Not free energy devices and dead alien bodies.
Roswell isn't a story of a simple metal box landing, retrieval and 
the obvious cover-up. It's extra much more. A mind game with
unknown players and an unseen goal.
The stains on Monicas dress could very well be evidence of sexual
conduct, but our unknown players here have some serious washing
powder.
You can't cover this with Politics and Technology.
You can not expect Warner Brothers and Fox to be able to portray
these events. 
But if they do, you realise that you haven't seen this in
Politics and Technology and the subject matter is so not of your kin
that you will consider it to be just another movie.
You have my permission to investigate further, mr Corso:
Then you say, this guy has been watching way too much xfiles, even
though men in black and chupacabras and what have you, existed long 
before they were the subject of television shows.

And that is one of the reasons why this thick field leads to
unwarranted assumptions.
We want easy answers, but we aren't getting any.
Neither from the ufos nor from the government/media nor from any
serious ufo thinkers.
There are no easy answers in this field and does that bother you?
If it does, good, because it should. You guys always speak of the
sheep.
Well what kind of sheep has an unknown object hovering above it
while shouting look ma - Venus!




From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Wed Oct 17 15:18:00 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 17:18:00 -0500
Subject: More coverage of Larry Ellison's fascism
References: <3BCDB53C.F6608518@sarin.com>
  <5.1.0.14.2.20011017135343.03c96080@bivens.parrhesia.com>
Message-ID: <3BCE0387.A76741CC@cybershamanix.com>


Greg Broiles wrote:

>
> Now all we need are Ross Perot and/or EDS and/or IBM telling us they can do
> the same thing but cheaper and faster.
>
> --
> Greg Broiles
> gbroiles at well.com
> "We have found and closed the thing you watch us with." -- New Delhi street kids

       Well, Sun already did that. Which is a *real* drag for me -- since
boycotting Sun certainly cuts off a large number of job opportunities. Sigh!
      Although maybe it'll turn out to be a real boost for linux.  8-)

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver at cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html




From declan at well.com  Wed Oct 17 14:38:38 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 17:38:38 -0400
Subject: Who represents the detained? Nobody...
In-Reply-To: ; from
  tcmay@got.net on Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 01:59:28PM -0700
References: <20011017165321.B15005@cluebot.com>
  
Message-ID: <20011017173838.A15186@cluebot.com>


On Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 01:59:28PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> Anyway, as Declan says, this is being covered in newspaper stories. (No 
> coverage that I've seen in a hundreds of hours of coverage on CNN, 
> MSNBC, Fox, ABC, CBS, or NBC. None. Just vague mentions of "several 
> hundred detainees.")

Right. The Post, to its credit, has featured this story prominently.

I escaped the CNNMSNBCFOX pit for a few days and made the mistake of 
tuning back in today. The poor saps all seem to be doing an imitation
of Headline News (a valuable service) but without realizing it.

Not American journalism at its finest.

-Declan




From gil_hamilton at hotmail.com  Wed Oct 17 17:47:25 2001
From: gil_hamilton at hotmail.com (Gil Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 17:47:25 
Subject: [NEWS] FBI To Require ISPs To Reconfigure E-mail Systems
  (fwd)
Message-ID: 


Bill Stewarts forwarded:

>HEADLINE: PRIVACY: FBI To Require ISPs To Reconfigure E-mail Systems

>Such a stance could result in considerable cost to many ISPs, and it
>would constitute a reversal of previous government policy, which held
>that ISPs are not subject to CALEA's requirements. But Baker also said
>"it has been a long-term goal of the FBI and is not just a reaction to
>Sept. 11."

Nobody doubts that!
Sept. 11 merely provided the opportunity for the slimy power-hungry
control freaks to take advantage of the unprincipled and weak-willed.
No surprises here; Sept. 11 has been a wet dream for the Fibbies.


>"Under the cover of people's outrage [over the terrorist attacks] and
>desire for revenge, lots of things that have been defeated before have
>been brought back in [to the anti-terrorism legislation] without a
>demonstration that the lack of appropriate law is a problem," Kapor
>said in an interview. But on the whole, Kapor and Baker shared more
>common ground on the acceptability of new electronic surveillance than
>they had in the past, with both expressing the view that now is a time
>for calm reconsideration of positions rather than butting horns over
>the details of how civil liberties would be curtailed by an
>anti-terrorism bill.

In other words: "Baby, this won't hurt that much if you'll just lay
back and quit fighting it."  So it turns out that Kapor's just another
fucking toady, ready to suck his thumb and let Big Brother take care
of him.


>"I find myself more in the middle than I used to because my identity
>in life is not as a civil liberties advocate," Kapor said. "Part is
>being an American and a world citizen."

I'm really sick of hearing all these digerati -- that used to [claim
to] support civil liberties -- now ready to bend over and spread 'em
for the Feds.  This simply goes to show that they Never Had Any
Fucking Principles To Begin With.  They were just playing the part,
trying to look cool and hang out with the other trendy celebrities
espousing trendy liberal positions.

If one actually had principles, one would have thought about the
possibility of a large scale terrorist attack long before it
happened, and have allowed for it in their world view and their
political philosophy.


>"What has changed [since Sept. 11] is the view of the technology
>community," Baker said. "I used to get calls like, 'How can I beat the
>NSA?'" said Baker. "Now, people call and say, 'I have this great idea
>that would help NSA,' or, 'I want to go volunteer and do outreach on
>behalf of the FBI or NSA.' There is a real change of people's view
>about who the bad guys are."

At least you know where Baker stands.  And it ain't on the side of
liberty!  (I *would* like to know why an ISP would hire Baker to
represent them when FBI is asking them to conduct electronic
surveillance; that seems a bit like asking the fox to help guard the
henhouse.)

- GH



_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Wed Oct 17 18:05:08 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 18:05:08 -0700
Subject: Non-verbal IQ testing
In-Reply-To: <3BCE221C.3D848C07@acmenet.net>
Message-ID: 


Steve Furlong wrote:

> The test apparatus had one central button
> and a bunch of other lightable buttons
> around it. The subject pressed the central
> button and waited for one of the others to
> light, then pressed that one as quickly as
> he could.

Yup, that's the one.  I just tried to do a preliminary search and came up
with nada.  Do you recall if it was Arthur Jensen or William Shockley?  What
did he call them damned thing?  I don't really know what to search under.

 S a n d y




From declan at well.com  Wed Oct 17 15:32:39 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 18:32:39 -0400
Subject: Who represents the detained? Nobody...
In-Reply-To: <200110172140.OAA25734@sirius.infonex.com>; from
  anonymous@anonymizer.com on Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 02:40:00PM -0700
References: <200110172140.OAA25734@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <20011017183239.A18017@cluebot.com>


Yawn. I never claimed to do original research in this area; I've been 
writing about other stuff for the last five weeks. My comments were based
on news reports and statements by groups like the ACLU.

Of course it's easy for "Anonymous" to rant and spew. Doesn't mean we
should listen.

-Declan


On Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 02:40:00PM -0700, Anonymous wrote:
> It's nice that there's a forum available to you 
> where you are free to assert and assume whatever 
> you wish, without the inconvenience of any 
> substantiation.
> 
> 
> 
> >
> >Naturally the thin legal fiction of having a lawyer technically
> >representing you, no matter whether you've been able to speak with him
> 
> They were allowed to speak
> 
> >or exchange any useful information, 
> 
> How do you know what information was discussed?
> 
> >makes any brutal prison regime
> >an acceptable one. No matter that the Washington Post article, which
> >started this thread, did not say that all post-Sep.11 detainees have
> >lawyers, and there is reason to believe some do not.
> 
> You are free to believe whatever you wish.  But that's not a
> standard of proof that means anything.
> 
> Personal belief, supposition, unsubstantiated assertion.  
> I'm glad we're not talking about anything like you'd
> see in a star chamber or brutal prison regime.  Glad
> you exhibit a pristine standard of evidence in
> contrast to those you revile.  Hypocrite.
> 
> 
> >
> >-Declan
> >
> >
> >On Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 12:55:00PM -0700, Anonymous wrote:
> >> >>>They HAVE representation, and I don't THINK the




From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Wed Oct 17 18:51:40 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 18:51:40 -0700
Subject: Non-verbal IQ testing
In-Reply-To: <3BCE2F48.491BF7C8@cybershamanix.com>; from
  hseaver@cybershamanix.com on Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 08:24:47PM -0500
References: 
  <3BCE2F48.491BF7C8@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <20011017185140.A2391@navel.introspect>


on Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 08:24:47PM -0500, Harmon Seaver
(hseaver at cybershamanix.com) wrote:

> And asians are first? What sport do they prevail in?

Ping-pong.  Not half bad at baseball and basketball either.

--
Karsten M. Self        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?             Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Wed Oct 17 18:56:07 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 18:56:07 -0700
Subject: Non-verbal IQ testing
In-Reply-To: <3BCE2F48.491BF7C8@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: 


Harmon Seaver wrote:

> Right! The logic of that somehow escapes
> me -- let's see, IQ based on ability to
> physically respond to stimuli...

The theory was something along the lines that IQ is primarily a function of
synaptic response speed/efficiency.

> Dream on, white boy. Sheee-it -- whites
> can't even talk as fast as blacks, just
> listen to hiphop sometime.

Well, I realize that racism comes in many colors.  I suggest you listen to
some Gilbert and Sullivan "patter" songs sometime.  :'D


 S a n d y




From jya at pipeline.com  Wed Oct 17 19:01:48 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 19:01:48 -0700
Subject: Kill Killfile
In-Reply-To: <200110172236.SAA21373@oobleck.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <200110172307.TAA05716@granger.mail.mindspring.net>


This comes up regularly, Seth, I may have said it myself,
but don't remember, having seen the charge laid here
so often about all sorts of upper IQ interesting people. 
Tim, ever different than most, never denies it, never 
affirms it, just keeps writing and raging about what he's 
good at. 

Nobody who appreciates the sine curve quality of imaginative
literature on cpunks will be surprised as what comes of 
this best seller low roader -- which you got to admire, foretells 
the future better than most, may Minerva protect us, and goose 
us into amazing flights of fancy to ward off dulling conventional
wisdom, and, as always, Mars-inspired paranoia and rage and 
petty-minded schemes for making the world worse than
ever before in history, that is, aching for shallow recognition
like you, and the minor deities, wretched bedfellow provocateurs 
of discredited authority.

Dance the Watusi, drink the blood of patriots and tyrants.


Seth Finkelstein you wrote:
>	I'm telling ya, you heard it from me first, someday we're going to
>find out that Tim May is a government agent. Not that he started out
>that way. But somewhere along the line, probably in return for a deal on
>firearms charges, we'll find out he agreed to be an informant/provocateur.
>It always amazes me how hidebound are so many of the cypherpunks list
>members. If the goverment was planning a crack-down on suspicious people,
>using a few _agents provocateurs_ would be utterly unsurprising.
>
>--
>Seth Finkelstein  Consulting Programmer  sethf at sethf.com  http://sethf.com




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Oct 17 19:18:28 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 19:18:28 -0700
Subject: You Can Have Your Rights Back When We're Done
In-Reply-To: <20011017003054.C14207@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <6AD14780-C36E-11D5-8249-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Tuesday, October 16, 2001, at 09:30 PM, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 12:24:28PM -0400, Steve Furlong wrote:
>> I normally attribute acts like this to incompetence rather than malice,
>> but this is really pushing it. Could someone be ensuring there'd always
>
> It might not be malice or incompetence but simple vindictiveness. The
> WashPost article reports this is happening in NYC, where there's no lack
> of angry police and government prosecutors around. Not saying this kind
> of secret detention is right, of course, but if you're looking
> for explanations...


They have every right to be angry.

However, they have no right to sweep the streets and arrest 500-600 
persons and throw them in a hole for 5 weeks. Arab students who merely 
lived in the same garden apartment complexes in San Diego as one of the 
hijackers were arrested, not charged, thrown in a small cell, and are 
being held for some kind of grand jury investigation.

What ever happened to "taking a statement" and releasing them if there 
is no evidence they were complicit? Fear that they'll leave their 
student lives in San Diego and fly back home? (Probably a good bet for 
some fraction of the 500, some fraction who will be so radicalized by 
their treatment that they sign on to participate in a vengeance act.).

Due process has been thrown out the prison windows (oops, there aren't 
any...) in this one.

Amerika is shown to be a nation of angry cops, not a nation of laws.

The next suspect held indefinitely in a stinking jail cell on "material 
witness" grounds could be me, you, or any of us.

--Tim May


--Tim May
"Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and
strangled with her panty hose,  is somehow morally superior to a woman 
explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound"




From jya at pipeline.com  Wed Oct 17 19:20:23 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 19:20:23 -0700
Subject: Kill Killfile
In-Reply-To: <200110172236.SAA21373@oobleck.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <200110172326.TAA25526@granger.mail.mindspring.net>


And another excellent quality of cpunks that does indeed
impress the world of media bloodthirstiness, is the number 
of its outstanding writers sent to jail, some repeatedly, for 
cutting edge taunts of illiterate critics, diseased poobahs 
and for sure, aesthetic cowards who ever try to pump up
their fiction with idiotic pretense of non-fictional earnestness.

Now I know its a grave offense to those with gravitas (spit)
to ridicule their seriousness of purpose and pretentious
judgmentalism, but they pose such easy targets, for all
purposes I can see, beg to be made fun of, display abysmal
ignorance of what they write, cite spurious authorities for
it, remind when it was first, last, and forever written, just
cannot forgo wild swings at fantasms, urge close attention
to their pulp, deliver sweeping statements as if a world
authority, viciously attack untalented writers like themselves,
slather the most shallowly manipulating praise ever
imaginable, and probably lay awake at night dreaming
of triumph, a Nobel Prize or violent heroic death before
dishonor.

This is what I like about cypherpunks and find repugnant
about Cyberia which has produced no jail time for its
members, but more advice on how to avoid it than is good
for humanity. A refuge for intellectural and corporal cowards, 
Cyberia, among many other lists, is, but in time that will
hopefully change, in particular if I can persuade you and
Declan to go over the line all great writers must do to spend
jail-time among the winners and stop sucking up to losers
who will always remain unimpressed having no judgment
worth writing about.




From honig at sprynet.com  Wed Oct 17 19:37:18 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 19:37:18 -0700
Subject: Non-verbal IQ testing
In-Reply-To: <20011017232836.16188.qmail@sidereal.kz>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011017193718.00b88590@pop.sprynet.com>


At 11:28 PM 10/17/01 -0000, Dr. Evil wrote:
>Every once in a while even cpunks need a little respite from ranting,
>and some refreshing topic which hasn't been beaten to a painful
>ad-hominem-death a thousand times already... so here's the topic.
>
>What methods are there for doing non-verbal, cross-cultural IQ tests?

This has "beaten to a painful
ad-hominem-death a thousand times already"
in other circles, however. Not that this 
prohibits the following rant: 

When I came to calif for grad school 
I encountered a very bright quasi-native (Puerto
Rican ethnically, though an Angelino, and now a Prof) who 
complained about the following on the SAT: 
	furnace:basement::blah:blah
as being geographically biassed towards cold-weather
folks (e.g., Princeton, NJ), as Californians
don't have basements and furnaces are in walls
or attics.

I was astounded that Calif's didn't have basements
(though their necessity if you have something called
a frost-line (brrr) has been explained here within
the last year) and instantly convinced, for the first time, 
of some geographical cultural bias[1]. 

However, this isn't enough of a problem to discredit so-called
"abstract" (e.g., geometric) tests, such as the Stanford-Binet
IQ,  or SATs, which I *do* think are largely valid[2].  Though it helps if 
you can figure out what the test-makers' point is; this is always a help.

In any case, Dr. E,  if you're still working on the 'exclude robots, include
humans' problem and thinking about IQ tests, well, wow.




----
[1] I now have a house in Calif, no basement,
furnace in the attic.  Hopefully the foundation will float when the local
clay "soil" liquefies next; our location wrt liquefaction isn't
too bad, compared to northern angelos.  

[2] The SAT attempts to predict college performance not actual
intelligence IIRC.  IIRC it does so reasonably well.
This too has been beaten to death.




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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Wed Oct 17 18:24:47 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 20:24:47 -0500
Subject: Non-verbal IQ testing
References: 
Message-ID: <3BCE2F48.491BF7C8@cybershamanix.com>


    Right! The logic of that somehow escapes me -- let's see, IQ based on
ability to physically respond to stimuli, and blacks, who absolutely, hands
down, excel at kicking white ass on the playing field, are last? And asians are
first? What sport do they prevail in?
     Dream on, white boy. Sheee-it -- whites can't even talk as fast as blacks,
just listen to hiphop sometime.


Sandy Sandfort wrote:

> "Dr. Evil" wrote:
>
> > What methods are there for doing non-verbal,
> > cross-cultural IQ tests?
>
> Either Shockley or Jensen (I always get those two confused) came up with a
> purely PHYSICAL IQ test the had a very high correlation with standard IQ
> tests.  It involved a reaction speed test that had to do with pushing
> buttons when lights flashed or some such.  It contained no possible cultural
> bias, yet support the findings of standard tests in that it showed a
> statistical difference in IQ between different racial groups.  (I.e., the
> average scores for Asians was higher than that of Caucasians which was
> higher than for Blacks.)  Predictably, the test was denounced by the
> Politically Correct, but without any substantive critique of the test
> itself.
>
>  S a n d y

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver at cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Wed Oct 17 17:28:12 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 20:28:12 -0400
Subject: Non-verbal IQ testing
References: 
Message-ID: <3BCE221C.3D848C07@acmenet.net>


Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> 
> "Dr. Evil" wrote:
> 
> > What methods are there for doing non-verbal,
> > cross-cultural IQ tests?
> 
> Either Shockley or Jensen (I always get those two confused) came up with a
> purely PHYSICAL IQ test the had a very high correlation with standard IQ
> tests.  It involved a reaction speed test that had to do with pushing
> buttons when lights flashed or some such.
...

The test apparatus had one central button and a bunch of other lightable
buttons around it. The subject pressed the central button and waited for
one of the others to light, then pressed that one as quickly as he
could. The test measured the time between the lighting and the subject's
release of the central button as well as the time between the lighting
and the subject's pressing the lit button. The first number was pretty
much just reflex time, and was not particularly correlated with g,
general intelligence. The second number involved selection from amongst
alternatives, was positively correlated with g.

And you're right, the test was denounced, though I can't figure out how
the detractors found a cultural bias in it. Maybe they just attacked the
notion of g.

-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From mastaton23 at hotmail.com  Wed Oct 17 17:46:34 2001
From: mastaton23 at hotmail.com (Mark Staton)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 20:46:34 -0400
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: 


What is ur phone #? Does this $3 envelope program require any personal 
advertising I have to do myself like placing an ad in a newspaper or do u 
give me all the evelopes stams supplies, etc needed to complete the task?

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Wed Oct 17 20:51:24 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 20:51:24 -0700
Subject: NOW ITS PERSONAL
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011018144845.00a1c3a0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: 


Hey "mattd", don't operate any heavy machinery until the buzz wears off.  On
second thought, maybe you should.  :'D

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com]On
> Behalf Of mattd
> Sent: 17 October, 2001 21:52
> To: cypherpunks at lne.com
> Subject: NOW ITS PERSONAL
>
>
> "I've got these terrible flu symptoms...)
>
>
>   S a n d y
>
> *"Bay Area Rapid Transit" for those not familiar with San Francisco."
>
> Sandy sandforts a compliment collector,Id like to be his funeral
> director.




From mattd at useoz.com  Wed Oct 17 03:55:25 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 20:55:25 +1000
Subject: NSA comints saudi pigs
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011017203946.00a1a740@pop.useoz.com>


"Sy Hersh's report on NSA echeloning Royal Saudi pigs:

   http://www.newyorker.com/FACT/?011022fa_FACT1"

Thanks jya,By coincidence I was reading 'one point safe'.A factional papperbok
that has some interesting shit inc.major character,'jessica stern'(authors are
andrew and lesley cockburn)Page 246.refers to the Fahd-Saddam nuclear project
that swollowed up to 5 billion from 85-90.Also some gossip about customs-cia
turf wars and customs 'stings'run out of the old WTC(pages 264-5)Warner books.
All ancient hirstory,I know,like the giving of a boeing to saddam from qatar.
last nov.With friends like these,the stupid ameriklan empire hardly needs me,
or far better enemies than me.

Your shadow in the morning striding behind you,
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust"
-TS Eliot, The Waste Land




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Oct 17 19:12:14 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 21:12:14 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Non-verbal IQ testing
In-Reply-To: <20011017185140.A2391@navel.introspect>
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 17 Oct 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote:

> on Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 08:24:47PM -0500, Harmon Seaver
> (hseaver at cybershamanix.com) wrote:
> 
> > And asians are first? What sport do they prevail in?
> 
> Ping-pong.  Not half bad at baseball and basketball either.

Bruce Lee


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Wed Oct 17 18:43:32 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 21:43:32 -0400
Subject: Non-verbal IQ testing
References: 
Message-ID: <3BCE33C4.5BAD8C8D@acmenet.net>


Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> 
> Steve Furlong wrote:
> 
> > The test apparatus had one central button
> > and a bunch of other lightable buttons
> > around it. The subject pressed the central
> > button and waited for one of the others to
> > light, then pressed that one as quickly as
> > he could.
> 
> Yup, that's the one.  I just tried to do a preliminary search and came up
> with nada.  Do you recall if it was Arthur Jensen or William Shockley?  What
> did he call them damned thing?  I don't really know what to search under.

Google: intelligence test lights button

http://www.forbes.com/asap/1998/1130/281_print.html is the first result.
This article is pretty much against the concept of intelligence testing.

According to that article, the device is called "Jensen's button box".
That may not be correct, as a google search for "jensen's button box"
(quoted to filter out obvious false hits) yielded only that article.


-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From measl at mfn.org  Wed Oct 17 21:15:36 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 23:15:36 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDC Anthrax broadcast (fwd)
Message-ID: 



For anyone interested...

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 17:10:29 -0600
From: Jeffrey Mann 
Reply-To: EMED-L -- a list for emergency medicine practitioners.
    
To: EMED-L at ITSSRV1.UCSF.EDU
Subject: [EMED-L] CDC broadcast

In light of recent events, CDC is broadcasting a live program THIS
Thursday (Oct. 18) titled "Anthrax: What Every Clinician Should Know."
The program will aim to help clinicians recognize, test, treat and
report anthrax cases.
Clinicians will be able to pose questions to the panel of experts.

CDC is asking for our help to spread the word on this broadcast to the
health care community.

Please forward the information in this e-mail to grantees, training
centers, relevant listservs-anyone who might be interested in this
program.
TIME: 4-5:30 p.m. EDT
Rebroadcast: Monday, Oct. 22, 5-6:30 p.m. EDT

There are three ways to participate in this program:
1.      Via satellite (see
http://www.cdc.gov/phtn/Anthrax%2010-18-2001.pdf for coordinates).
Clinicians can contact their state health department's Distance Learning
Coordinator and/or local hospital for viewing locations.
2.      Via webcast (a link will be provided Thursday at
http://www.cdc.gov/phtn  )
3.      Via telephone (Dial 1-888-917-8047; passcode is Dr. Koplan;
Leader Name is Jo Ann Bittle)

Numbers for Call-In During Program
*       FAX: 800-553-6323 Int'l: 404-639-0181
*       E-mail: phtnlive at cdc.gov
*       Technical Assistance Line: 800-728-8232
*       Technical Assistance Int'l: 404-639-1289
*       TTY: 800-815-8152 Int'l: 404-639-0182

Questions About the Program
Call 1-800-41-TRAIN, or e-mail dlc at cdc.gov


For more information, please see
http://www.cdc.gov/phtn/Anthrax%2010-18-2001.pdf

To unsubscribe, send the command  "SIGNOFF EMED-L" to LISTSERV at ITSSRV1.UCSF.EDU




From drevil at sidereal.kz  Wed Oct 17 16:28:36 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil)
Date: 17 Oct 2001 23:28:36 -0000
Subject: Non-verbal IQ testing
Message-ID: <20011017232836.16188.qmail@sidereal.kz>


Every once in a while even cpunks need a little respite from ranting,
and some refreshing topic which hasn't been beaten to a painful
ad-hominem-death a thousand times already... so here's the topic.

What methods are there for doing non-verbal, cross-cultural IQ tests?
Some obvious things come to mind, like geomtric analogy questions, but
that would seem to favor people who have strong spatial or visual
reasoning, which is only one aspect of overall intelligence.  Any
other options?




From measl at mfn.org  Wed Oct 17 21:31:11 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 23:31:11 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Executive Order - Critical Infrastructure Protection in the Information
 Age (fwd)
Message-ID: 



This is a fun one...

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 19:43:46 -0700
From: Barry Raveendran Greene 
To: nanog at nanog.org
Subject: Executive Order - Critical Infrastructure Protection in the
    Information Age 



http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/10/print/20011016-12.html






From declan at well.com  Wed Oct 17 20:54:05 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 23:54:05 -0400
Subject: Kill Killfile
In-Reply-To: <200110172326.TAA25526@granger.mail.mindspring.net>; from
  jya@pipeline.com on Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 07:20:23PM -0700
References: <200110172236.SAA21373@oobleck.mit.edu>
  <200110172326.TAA25526@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20011017235405.A23101@cluebot.com>


On Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 07:20:23PM -0700, John Young wrote:
> And another excellent quality of cpunks that does indeed
> impress the world of media bloodthirstiness, is the number 
> of its outstanding writers sent to jail, some repeatedly, for 

Oh, you're being too generous in Fedpraise. Only one cypherpunk
subscriber that I know of is currently in gaol, that's Jim Bell of
course, and this list was just one of many fora he frequented. CJ now
appears to be on the loose again, showering us with his, um,
inimitable prose. Mattd/proffr or a tentacle has plead guilty but is
still here.

-Declan




From die at die.com  Wed Oct 17 20:58:07 2001
From: die at die.com (Dave Emery)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 23:58:07 -0400
Subject: Next act of the drama ?
Message-ID: <20011017235807.A27201@die.com>


Cc: sme2 at yahoogroups.com

Folks, the MSP has placed the following BE ON THE LOOK OUT BULLETIN (BOLO)
for a theft that occurred in New Jersey yesterday of a 45 foot
trailer/truck combo with hazardous chemicals inside:

Truck:  Freightliner, 2000,  license plate:  NJ  171469, Penske Leasing on
side of cab doors

Trailer:  45 foot, 1988, has name "Crew Rockland" on trailer and a trailer
number of 22A.  License plate NJ  T392VD

BTW warning was placed not to open up the trailer if found.

This is not meant to cause hysteria among us BUT again in our travels we
just might see that trailer somewhere!!!

 
----- End forwarded message -----

-- 
	Dave Emery N1PRE,  die at die.com  DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass. 
PGP fingerprint = 2047/4D7B08D1 DE 6E E1 CC 1F 1D 96 E2  5D 27 BD B0 24 88 C3 18




From declan at well.com  Wed Oct 17 20:59:23 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 23:59:23 -0400
Subject: Detainees, Personal Libertarianism, and Vengeance
In-Reply-To: ; from
  nobody@dizum.com on Thu, Oct 18, 2001 at 01:00:12AM +0200
References: 
Message-ID: <20011017235923.B23101@cluebot.com>


On Thu, Oct 18, 2001 at 01:00:12AM +0200, Nomen Nescio wrote:
> In fact, the other day you threatened to murder a reporter who misquoted
> you; in fact, you further suggested you would torture him and kill his
> entire family.  These are innocent children who never did a thing to you,
> and you would kill them in cold blood.  Only a subhuman animal, devoid
> of any semblance of morality and decency, would suggest such a thing.

I remember that post Tim made. I hope it was, and expect it was,
hyperbole.

Torturing and murdering the innocent children of someone who may --
let's even stipulate a moment of malice -- have written an article
that misquoted you is not exactly behavior that civilized society
should applaud.

-Declan




From reeza at hawaii.rr.com  Thu Oct 18 03:03:58 2001
From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 00:03:58 -1000
Subject: Kill Killfile
In-Reply-To: <3BCE9933.4A27AAD0@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
References: 
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011018000242.0342b430@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com>


At 09:56 AM 10/18/01 +0100, Ken Brown wrote:
 >Sandy Sandfort wrote:
 >> John Young wrote:



 >A guide to you Pacific People. When us Atlantic People say something
 >with this little twitch in our voice (just listen - there - did you hear
 >it?) we mean the *exact* *opposite* of what we seem to be saying. And
 >when we use this sort of supercilious sneer (pay attention now, it is
 >very subtle) we mean both what we are apparently saying *and* its
 >opposite, simultaneously, the two held in tension in an unstable melange
 >of fractal meaning.

Otherwise known as Cognitive Dissonance.  Draw your own conclusions.

Reese




From jya at pipeline.com  Thu Oct 18 00:10:58 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 00:10:58 -0700
Subject: Kill Killfile
In-Reply-To: <20011017235405.A23101@cluebot.com>
References: <200110172326.TAA25526@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
  <200110172236.SAA21373@oobleck.mit.edu>
  <200110172326.TAA25526@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <200110180417.AAA26828@granger.mail.mindspring.net>


Declan unimpressively underwrote:

>Oh, you're being too generous in Fedpraise. Only one cypherpunk
>subscriber that I know of is currently in gaol, that's Jim Bell of
>course, and this list was just one of many fora he frequented. CJ now
>appears to be on the loose again, showering us with his, um,
>inimitable prose. Mattd/proffr or a tentacle has plead guilty but is
>still here.

The cpunk manditory goal is hyperbole, Declan, newsworthiness, 
waste not proffering unreasonable restraint else you get Brill-filed. 
Oops, Br*lled. Headlines are the content misidentified. Watch
the initiation here of subject lines. Use k*ll, win a diss.

Many went to jail of corporate promises of riches, none to gaol, 
one a daredevil repeat offender, thanks to you and me and 
Jessica Wahup, and 60 Minutes, and the Fedparsers of fine 
literature, paper servants, and lop-sided witness list. 

If the timeservers had been decently ignored none would have 
gone to the pokey, none would have believed the promises of
riches, but why not when non-jail and the stock market are 
looking so bleak. 

All the prime intellects of world-class dissent and fraud are 
in jail, mostly US federal, and if you're not that tells the
full story of who rats. Gnaw, you say, not me.




From Anonymous  Thu Oct 18 00:25:32 2001
From: Anonymous (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 00:25:32 -0700
Subject: Zero Knowledge Tracks Users with Freedom 3.0...
Message-ID: 

Declan,

Thought you'd be interested in this.

While playing with Zero Knowledge Systems' new
Freedom 3.0 privacy product, I noticed that it actually
notifies Zero Knowledge whenever you start
it up.  It sends a bunch of HTTP requests
(through the M$ IE subsystem, no less) to ZKS.

Here's a sample header:
GET 
http://www.zeroknowledge.com/client/3/redirect.asp?pid=2029&prn=0&ver=3.0.0&lang=en&event=1&url=1 
User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0

Plus all the standard HTTP stuff -- IP address, date/time, etc.

This would also include any cookies set from
zeroknowledge.com, (which ZKS sets every time you go there),
but I filter cookies through the MEconomy system, so
I had none from them.

What's "pid" (I checked -- unrelated to my Win 2K process ID)?
What's prn?
What's "event"?
Why is s it being sent back to zeroknowledge EVERY time I start up Freedom?

Guess even the privacy good guys want to track you.

********


From tcmay at got.net  Thu Oct 18 00:47:53 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 00:47:53 -0700
Subject: Detainees, Personal Libertarianism, and Vengeance
In-Reply-To: <20011017235923.B23101@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <6FD45F26-C39C-11D5-8249-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Wednesday, October 17, 2001, at 08:59 PM, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 18, 2001 at 01:00:12AM +0200, Nomen Nescio wrote:
>> In fact, the other day you threatened to murder a reporter who 
>> misquoted
>> you; in fact, you further suggested you would torture him and kill his
>> entire family.  These are innocent children who never did a thing to 
>> you,
>> and you would kill them in cold blood.  Only a subhuman animal, devoid
>> of any semblance of morality and decency, would suggest such a thing.
>
> I remember that post Tim made. I hope it was, and expect it was,
> hyperbole.
>
> Torturing and murdering the innocent children of someone who may --
> let's even stipulate a moment of malice -- have written an article
> that misquoted you is not exactly behavior that civilized society
> should applaud.
>

Both of you are using my comments out of context, Nomen much more so.

I threatened no reporter, despite what Nomen says above.

I phrased it as "you can always tell them...." This is a standard 
hypothetical. The complete quote is below:

--begin--
You can always tell them that if they willfully and substantively 
misquote you, you will visit their home, wait until they are are away, 
kill their wife and children, wait until they return home, force them to 
the floor at gunpoint, put tape around their mouth and nylon tie wraps 
around their hands, let them see what has been done to their family, let 
them think about it for 10 minutes, then put tape over their nose and 
wait for them to suffocate.

The danger is in telling them. It may be best to not tell them, but then 
to carry out punishment some appropriate time later.
--end--

However, I continue to be amused that Sandy, Seth, John, and poor Nomen 
are all predicting that I'm about to be arrested.


--Tim May
"Extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice."--Barry Goldwater




From nobody at dizum.com  Wed Oct 17 16:00:12 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 01:00:12 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Detainees, Personal Libertarianism, and Vengeance
Message-ID: 


> For the past 35 years of my politically awake life, I have found it very 
> clarifying to think of _all_ proposed or existing laws in terms of how 
> it could apply to _me_. Seen this way, I have no problems supporting 
> laws against murder, burglary, or other such crimes.

You're not even being consistent.  You yourself have indicated that you
would engage in murder of those you viewed to be violating your rights.
Even if they have merely inconvenienced you by holding you a few days
longer than you thought proper, or not providing enough access to an
attorney, you would kill the guards and other low-paid employees who
are doing no more than temporarily limiting your freedom of action.

In fact, the other day you threatened to murder a reporter who misquoted
you; in fact, you further suggested you would torture him and kill his
entire family.  These are innocent children who never did a thing to you,
and you would kill them in cold blood.  Only a subhuman animal, devoid
of any semblance of morality and decency, would suggest such a thing.

"How would you like it," to quote your own words, if after commiting these
outrageous crimes, society gave you what you deserved?  Would you enjoy
being put on trial for your life?  Being sentenced to life imprisonment
or death?  How can you support laws against murder, while threatening
that action at every turn?

Of course, the alternative is that you are pathetic liar, a pitiful
blowhard whose bombast is his only hope of concealing his fears and
inadequacies.  You have no intention of killing anyone, which is why you
don't bother with consistency in your impotent rants.  The narcissism
description fit you to a tee.  All you want is attention, like an
immature child.  What a loser.




From peter.fairbrother at ntlworld.com  Wed Oct 17 17:10:29 2001
From: peter.fairbrother at ntlworld.com (Peter Fairbrother)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 01:10:29 +0100
Subject: Public Anonymity (Re: FIPR Release 16/10/2001: EMERGENCY POWERS
  ALLOW MASS-SURVEILLANCE FOR NON-TERRORIST INVESTIGATIONS
In-Reply-To: <6Uo9zhLB+gz7EA7J@turnpike.com>
Message-ID: 


> Richard Clayton wrote:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
> 
> In article <005f01c1572f$060bca80$742b4ed5 at fleetfoot>, Paul R. Pettitt
>  writes
> 
>> All you need do is use a free service like that at http://www.anonymisers.com
>> and nobody is able to monitor or log what you read or post.
>> 
> "nobody" is too strong ... the people who run that web site are in a position
> to log what you do -- they may well not choose to do so, but that's not quite
> the same thing.
> 
> They seem to have a clear understanding of what they are offering, and their
> FAQ is quite sensible, starting as it does with the sentence:
> 
> The answer to the big question quite simply is - no. It is not possible to
> ever be totally anonymous on the Internet despite what anyone else may try and
> tell you.
> 

This is simply wrong. There are several techniques which can provide public
anonymity, ie anonymity when _all_ parts of the communication system are
compromised. Some are well-known.

I have been working on this for some time, for possible inclusion in
m-o-o-t. I'm thinking of publishing a paper on this soon, and I have
attached part of an early draft of the introduction, which gives an
overview. It's just notes, I haven't finished it, so don't expect total
accuracy 
(or clarity).

-- Peter Fairbrother


.............................

Public Anonymity.

Public anonymity is anonymity when all the inner workings of the
transmission system are public, so anyone can see what is transmitted,
stored, manipulated, see who did it, but still can't detect if a message is
sent, or who the sender or recipient are *.

To set a scene, Alice wants to send Bob an email. Alice's comms with her ISP
are tapped, so are Bob's, and all the mail servers and anonymous remailers
in the world are secretly run/compromisable by the FB!/NSA/GCHQ. Also, Alice
and Bob are potentially subject to Court orders to reveal keys to encrypted
data.

There are several ways that this can be accomplished. Steganography (sending
hidden messages in eg pictures on the web that are accessed by many people)
is an obvious example, but it suffers from the disadvantage that if a
receiver is compromised than the sender can potentially be identified. So,
to a lesser extent, do simple broadcast systems or just-a-bunch-of-files
systems (I just stole/made up those terms). (Also, most stego software
writers don't know what they are doing, which I can quite understand as it
is usually theoretically impossible for them to do so **.)

A simple broadcast system works like this: eg 1 million users (including
Alice) each contribute on average 10 (some random, some signal) bytes/sec to
a 10MB/s broadcast signal. It's fairly easy to arrange for only intended
recipients (or a subset of them) to be able to determine which bytes of the
broadcast are meant for them, and to be able to decode only those bytes.
This system requires Bob to be online all the time.

A just-a-bunch-of-files system works like this: Sid (the server) makes a lot
of files and fills them with random data. Alice (and everyone else)
overwrites some of them with either encrypted or random data (and perhaps a
time). Bob reads _all_ the files from Sid's public database, and decrypts
those files intended for him, including Alice's message, with covertraffic
from the other users for anonymity. This requires Bob to read a lot of data,
but allows him to do it not in real time, ie Alice and Bob don't have to be
online at the same time. It also requires that Bob collects his messages
within a short time, otherwise they will be overwritten.

Anonymity in both these systems comes from Bob receiving lots of data, only
some of which is meant for him. The senders of data meant for him can't be
identified. Another twist, to foil traffic analysis and provide plausible
deniability against Court orders to reveal keys, is the sending of
meaningless data as a part of the system, eg: whenever Alice logs on,
whether or nor she has a message to send, she sends data. With good crypto
it is impossible to tell if she actually sent a message.


The difficulty with both these systems is the large amount of data Bob has
to read. It is possible to put this large transfer requirement on Alice
instead of Bob, but not much is gained overall by doing so. Simple
techniques to reduce transfer in these systems, eg Bob connecting at a set
time of day in the first case, or reading only a subset of the files in the
second, only reduce anonymity.

-----------------------------

(the paper itself will describe two methods for reducing this transfer
requirement, without decreasing anonymity, They're based on SFS-like
technology, undetectably moving hidden data around a too-big-to-transfer
SFS, actually doing it as part of other user's writes) (I hope, it's not
finished yet!)

----------------------------

* (There is another potential qualification, that the very existence of
Alice and Bob's comms can't be detected, but I won't fully address that
here, because in the present situation it isn't relevant. If Governments
impose requirements for key escrow, or mandate encryption software control,
it may become relevant. This attack can be defeated, though the useable
bandwith may become very low, and users may be required to generate lots of
plausible covertext and/or (shared) key material.)

** I'd love to argue this with you, but I will only do so once (unless you
are really interesting).




From specialoffers at freesamples.com  Thu Oct 18 01:19:26 2001
From: specialoffers at freesamples.com (specialoffers at freesamples.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 01:19:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Richard, get your FREE American Flag from USA Today
Message-ID: <200110180819.f9I8JQm22528@mail2.freesamples.com>

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From drevil at sidereal.kz  Wed Oct 17 19:02:45 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil)
Date: 18 Oct 2001 02:02:45 -0000
Subject: Non-verbal IQ testing
In-Reply-To: <20011017185140.A2391@navel.introspect>
  (kmself@ix.netcom.com)
References: 
  <3BCE2F48.491BF7C8@cybershamanix.com>
  <20011017185140.A2391@navel.introspect>
Message-ID: <20011018020245.26364.qmail@sidereal.kz>


> > And asians are first? What sport do they prevail in?
> 
> Ping-pong.  Not half bad at baseball and basketball either.

You forgot one: Shopping.  They are second in shopping only to Persian
Jewish women in LA.




From sales at saasoh.com  Wed Oct 17 14:07:55 2001
From: sales at saasoh.com (SaaSoh Textile Corporation)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 02:07:55 +0500
Subject: Wanted To Become Your Vendor
Message-ID: <200110180147859.SM01037@saasoh>



Dear Sir/Madam,

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Are available in different fabric specifications, sizes, weights, designs & colors.

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We manufacture Terry Polishing Cloths in different sizes & weights.                                                                                                 Our other Auto Detailing products are in non-terry i. e. Red Polishing Cloth, Off white Polishing Cloth, Both side Brushed Yellow Flannel Cloth and several other items. All above Auto Detailing Products are available in bulk as well as in customer's required retail packing.

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We strongly oppose the use of SPAM email and do not want anyone who does not wish to receive our
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***
...




From drevil at sidereal.kz  Wed Oct 17 19:50:26 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil)
Date: 18 Oct 2001 02:50:26 -0000
Subject: Non-verbal IQ testing
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011017193718.00b88590@pop.sprynet.com> (message
  from David Honig on Wed, 17 Oct 2001 19:37:18 -0700)
References: <3.0.6.32.20011017193718.00b88590@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <20011018025026.21569.qmail@sidereal.kz>


> In any case, Dr. E,  if you're still working on the 'exclude robots, include
> humans' problem and thinking about IQ tests, well, wow.

Hehehe, no, but that is a funny thought!  I can use my fuzzy text to
exclude robots from a site, but maybe I should also include a little
IQ test to exclude inferior minds.  That is a very good idea.  I'll
try to write up a little server that does that.

> [1] I now have a house in Calif, no basement,
> furnace in the attic.  Hopefully the foundation will float when the local
> clay "soil" liquefies next; our location wrt liquefaction isn't
> too bad, compared to northern angelos.  

Here in my yurt in Antartica, obviously, I don't have a basement, and,
following energy-saving sugestions on this list, I am heating the
place with inner infolded electromagnetic free energy vacuum motors,
and oh boy, if you don't adjust the thermostat right on those things,
it can get pretty hot in here!  Someone open a window!  Oh wait, yurts
don't have windows.  Let's see, if I were writing the SAT analogy
test, I would put:

Inner infolded electromagnetic free energy :: Dilithium crystals as

a) Cold fusion :: Heisenburg compensator

b) Splitfire sparkplugs :: Female condom

c) Thighmaster :: Tiger penis virility pills

d) Miracle grow :: Miracle whip

e) French :: Greek

> [2] The SAT attempts to predict college performance not actual
> intelligence IIRC.  IIRC it does so reasonably well.
> This too has been beaten to death.

That's right, the SAT is a Scholastic Aptitude Test, and is not by any
means a cross-cultural IQ test.  You need a certain IQ to do well in
college, but good work habits, concentration and a good memory may be
more important.  I am currently working on a phd here at Antarctica U.




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Thu Oct 18 05:48:58 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 07:48:58 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Fact Sheet: Chemical - Biological Agents (fwd)
Message-ID: 



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 07:42:13 -0400
From: PA List Manager 
To: DOSTRAVEL at LISTS.STATE.GOV
Subject: Fact Sheet: Chemical - Biological Agents

U.S. Department of State
Washington, D.C.

FACT SHEET
CHEMICAL - BIOLOGICAL AGENTS

The recent terrorist threats and confirmed cases of exposure to anthrax have
caused an increase in anxiety over the possibility of chemical and
biological attacks (CBA).  Currently, the method of delivery of anthrax has
been by letter or package.  While the risk of such attacks is limited, it
cannot be excluded.  As always, the Department will promptly share with
American citizens overseas any credible information about threats to their
safety.  Americans should stay informed and be prepared for any eventuality.


In 1999, the Department of Defense announced its intention to commence the
Family and Force Protection Initiative (FFPI) in order to provide enhanced
protection to the dependents of U.S. military service members and to
civilian Department of Defense (DOD) employees and their families. This
program was first implemented for U.S. Forces Korea.

The Department of State has had a chemical and biological countermeasure
program since 1998, when it began to deploy chemical antidotes and
antibiotics to selected posts abroad.   While we have no information to
indicate there is an imminent threat from use of anthrax or other biological
agents as a weapon against our overseas missions at this time, the
Department is expanding its countermeasure program.   As a precaution, the
Department requested our missions overseas to stock a three-day supply of
the antibiotic ciprofloxacin for all individuals who work in or frequent the
missions.

This small supply of ciprofloxacin is being pre-positioned to ensure rapid
access to this protective antibiotic for our employees in case of an Anthrax
exposure in an overseas USG facility and would allow the mission sufficient
time to provide access to care for all individuals exposed while securing
additional supplies of antibiotics.  Once an exposure is suspected, all
individuals who had been exposed in our workplace would be provided
antibiotics pending a full investigation of the exposure. This would include
any private American citizen present in the facility at the time of
exposure.

Again, if the Department becomes aware of any specific and credible threat
to the safety and security of American citizens abroad, that information
will be provided to them promptly.

Exposures to CBA that occur outside USG facilities would require the
involvement of local public health authorities who would provide information
and if necessary, protective antibiotics to the general public.
Ciprofloxacin and other antibiotics effective against Anthrax, including
doxycycline and amoxicillin are available with a prescription in most
pharmacies throughout the world.

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) is the lead government
agency on infectious diseases, including chemical/biological agents (CBA).
For detailed information on CBA, including Anthrax, inquirers are referred
to the CDC Internet home page at http://www.cdc.gov. The CDC's international
travelers hotline telephone number is 1-877-FYI-TRIP (1-877-394-8747);
fax: 1-888-CDC-FAXX (1-888-232-3299).

As always, American citizens should review their own personal security
situations and take those precautions they deem appropriate to ensure their
well-being.

Some general information on chemical-biological agents (CBA) follows:

A.      Biological agents can be dispersed by an aerosol spray that must be
inhaled. However, these agents can also be used to contaminate food, water
and other products. Attention to basic food hygiene when traveling abroad is
very important.

A.      Some chemical agents may be volatile--evaporating rapidly to form
clouds of agent. Others may be persistent. These agents may act directly on
the skin, lungs, eyes, respiratory tract or be absorbed through your skin
and lungs causing injury.  Choking and nerve agents damage the soft tissue
in these organs.

A.      When properly used, appropriate masks are effective protection to
prevent the inhalation of either biological or chemical agents; however this
assumes an adequate warning. Gas masks alone do not protect against agents
that act through skin absorption.  Those who wish to acquire protective
equipment for personal use should contact commercial vendors.

A.      There is an incubation period after exposure to biological agents.
It is essential that you seek appropriate care for illnesses acquired while
traveling abroad to assure prompt diagnosis and treatment.

A.      One of the biological warfare agents is the spore-forming bacterium
that causes Anthrax, an acute infectious disease.  It should be noted,
however, that effective dispersal of the Anthrax bacteria is difficult.

*       Anthrax is treatable if that treatment is initiated promptly after
exposure. The post-exposure treatment consists of certain antibiotics
administered in combination with the vaccine.

*       An anthrax vaccine that confers protective immunity does exist, but
is not readily available to private parties.  Efficacy and safety of use of
this vaccine for persons under 18 or over 65 and pregnant women have not
been determined.
*
*       The anthrax vaccine is produced exclusively by Bioport under
contract to the Department of Defense.  Virtually all vaccine produced in
the United States is under Defense Department contract primarily for
military use and a small number of other official government uses.

*       For additional information, please consult your health care provider
or local health authority.



                                October 2001

***********************************************************
See http://travel.state.gov/travel_warnings.html for
State Department Travel Warnings
************************************************************
To change your subscription, go to http://www.state.gov/www/listservs_cms.html




From declan at well.com  Thu Oct 18 07:51:21 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 07:51:21 -0700
Subject: Congressional "homeland defense" hearings postponed
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20011018075031.0247c490@mail.well.com>


*************** SENATE ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE
Homeland Security
Full committee hearing on "The role of the Department of Defense in
homeland security." (Rescheduled to October 25.)
Witnesses: Paul Wolfowitz, deputy Defense secretary;
     Gen. Peter Pace, vice chairman, Joint Chiefs
     of Staff; Gen. William Kernan, commander in
     chief, U.S. Joint Forces Command; Gen. Ralph
     Eberhart, commander in chief, U.S. Space Command/North
     American Aerospace Defense Command
Location: 216 Hart Senate Office Building. 9:30 a.m.
Contact: 202-224-3871 http://www.senate.gov/~armed_services
**POSTPONED** SENATE BANKING, HOUSING AND URBAN AFFAIRS COMMITTEE
Gilleran Nomination
Full committee hearing on the nomination of James Gilleran, of California,
to be director of the Office of Thrift Supervision in the Treasury
Department. (Rescheduled to October 23.)
Location: 538 Dirksen Senate Office Building. 2:30 p.m.
Contact: 202-224-7391 http://www.senate.gov/~banking
**POSTPONED** SENATE BUDGET COMMITTEE
Economic Stimulus
Full committee hearing on economic stimulus. (No new date announced.)
Witnesses: William Gale, senior fellow, Brookings Institute;
     Peter Orszag, senior fellow, Brookings Institute;
     Wayne Angell, chief economist, Bear, Sterans,
     Inc.
Location: TBA Senate Office Building. 10 a.m.
Contact: 202-224-0642 http://www.senate.gov/~budget
**POSTPONED** SENATE HEALTH, EDUCATION, LABOR AND PENSIONS COMMITTEE
Economic Security
Full committee hearing on hearing on "Economic Security: Helping Working
Americans and Those Out of Work." (No new date announced.)
Location: 430 Dirksen Senate Office Building. 10 a.m.
Contact: 202-224-5375 http://www.senate.gov/~labor
**POSTPONED**

  HOUSE ENERGY AND COMMERCE COMMITTEE
Digital Television
Telecommunications and the Internet Subcommittee hearing on "Transition
to Digital Television: Progress on Broadcaster Buildout and Proposals
to Expedite Return to Spectrum." (No new date announced.)
Location: 2123 Rayburn House Office Building. 9:30 a.m.
Contact: 202-225-2927 http://www.house.gov/commerce
**POSTPONED** HOUSE FINANCIAL SERVICES COMMITTEE
Policyholders/Terrorism
Capital Markets, Insurance and Government Sponsored Enterprises Subcommittee
hearing on "Protecting Policyholders from Terrorism: Private Sector
Solutions." (No new date announced.)
Witnesses: Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill; Richard Hillman,
     director, Financial Markets and Community
     Investment, GAO; Marjorie Nordlinger, senior
     attorney, Office of the General Counsel, Nuclear
     Regulatory Commission; Constantinos Iordanou,
     senior executive vice president, Group Operations
     and Business Development, Zurich Financial
     Services Group; Scott Harrington, professor,
     Insurance and Finance, Moore School of Business,
     University of South Carolina; David Cummins,
     Harry Loman professor, Insurance and Risk
     Management, The Wharton School, University
     of Pennsylvania; Nigel Easton, insurance specialist,
     United Nations; David Keating, senior counselor,
     National Taxpayers Union; Patrick Ryan, chairman/CEO,
     Aon Corporation; Roy Williams, director of
     aviation, Louis Armstrong New Orleans International
     Airport
Location: 2128 Rayburn House Office Building. 1 p.m.
Contact: 202-225-7502 http://www.house.gov/financialservices
**POSTPONED** HOUSE SMALL BUSINESS COMMITTEE
EPA Rulemaking
Regulatory Reform and Oversight Subcommittee hearing on "EPA Rulemaking:
do bad analyses lead to irrational rules?" (No new date announced.)
Location: 2360 Rayburn House Office Building. 10 a.m.
Contact: 202-225-5821 http://www.house.gov/smbiz
**POSTPONED** HOUSE WAYS AND MEANS COMMITTEE
SSA Response/Terror Attacks
Social Security Subcommittee hearing on the Social Security Administration's
response to the September 11 terrorist attacks. (No new date announced.)
Witnesses: Larry Massanari, acting commissioner, Social
     Security, SSA; Beatrice Disman, regional commissioner,
     SSA; Laurie Watkins, acting regional commissioner,
     SSA; James Huse, Jr., inspector general, Office
     of Inspector General
Location: B-318 Rayburn House Office Building. 10 a.m.
Contact: 202-225-3625 http://www.house.gov/ways_means
**POSTPONED**




From squid at panix.com  Thu Oct 18 04:56:47 2001
From: squid at panix.com (Yeoh Yiu)
Date: 18 Oct 2001 07:56:47 -0400
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: 


which




From declan at well.com  Thu Oct 18 05:04:22 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 08:04:22 -0400
Subject: Gov. Gilmore and anti-terror panel call for FISAlike "cyber
  court"
Message-ID: <20011018080422.B26460@cluebot.com>


House committee press release:
http://www.house.gov/science/press/107pr/107-103.htm

---

http://www.wired.com/news/conflict/0,2100,47676,00.html
   
   Governor Calls for 'Cyber Court'
   By Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com)
   2:00 a.m. Oct. 18, 2001 PDT
   
   WASHINGTON -- Malicious hackers, look out.
   
   A government anti-terrorism commission will recommend that Congress
   create a shadowy court to oversee investigations of suspected computer
   intruders.
   
   Gov. James Gilmore (R-Virginia), the commission's chairman, said
   Wednesday that federal judges have been far too sluggish in approving
   search warrants and eavesdropping of online miscreants.
   
   Instead, Gilmore told the House Science committee, the commission will
   recommend that a "cyber court" be created with extraordinary powers to
   authorize electronic surveillance and secret searches of suspected
   hackers' homes and offices.
   
   Police investigations are currently hamstrung by a lack of "effective
   procedures and understanding by many in the judiciary concerning the
   nature and urgency of cyber security," Gilmore said.

   [...]
   
   Gilmore offered few details on the proposal to create a hacker-court.
   A House press release says only that the commission will recommend the
   "establishment of a special 'Cyber Court' patterned after the court
   established in the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act."

   [...]




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----- End forwarded message -----




From mattd at useoz.com  Wed Oct 17 15:06:33 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 08:06:33 +1000
Subject: anthrax down under
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011018075708.00a60d40@pop.useoz.com>


After  a heads up from a 2600 au fellow subber,I believe the victorian 
police are making crude attempts
to set me up. something about spreading sweet and low on voting forms and 
ISP bills.
I could try and make life sweeter for various strangers,BUT IT WOULD BE WRONG!
It was an obvious plant as Im famous for advocating not voting and not 
paying bills/taxes
So the vic.police ,so well described by ned kelly ,so long ago will have to 
try harder.
They can take my laptop,but they'll never take my FREEDOM!




From verba at rol.it  Wed Oct 17 23:10:53 2001
From: verba at rol.it (verba at rol.it)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 08:10:53 +0200
Subject: Verba Volant del 17-10-01
Message-ID: <1003392654@web2bk.logos.it>


Verba Volant del 17-10-01,
This e-mail is sent to 0 subscribers.
Every day a new quotation translated into many languages. 

Logos Translations - www.logostranslations.com 
_________________

Quotation of the day:
Author - M.K. Gandhi
http://www.logos.it/bio/m_k_gandhi.html

English - live more simply so that others may simply live
Italian - vivere pi� semplicemente cos� che anche gli altri possano semplicemente vivere
Spanish - vive m�s sencillamente para que otros puedan sencillamente vivir
French - vivre plus simplement, pour que les autres puissent simplement vivre
Portuguese - vive de forma mais simples para que os outros possam simplesmente viver
Brazilian Portuguese - viva com simplicidade, de modo que outros possam simplesmente viver
German - f�hre ein einfacheres Leben, damit andere einfach leben k�nnen
Finnish - el� yksinkertaisemmin, jotta muutkin voivat yksinkertaisesti el��
Catalan - viure m�s simplement, ix� com altres poden simplement viure
Croatian - �ivjeti najjednostavnije tako da i drugi mogu jednostavno �ivjeti
Czech - ��t prosteji, aby jin� mohli proste ��t
Dutch - eenvoudiger leven, zodat de anderen eenvoudigweg kunnen leven
Emiliano-Romagnolo - fe' na voida pi� castigheda, ad modi ch'enca un elter a posa camper
Latin - modestius vivamus ita ut et ceteri modeste vivere possint
Latvian; Lettish - dzivo vienkar�ak, lai citi varetu vienkar�i dzivot
Polish - zyc jak najprosciej tak aby inni mogli po prostu zyc
Romanian - cauta sa traiesti c�t mai simplu ca si altii sa poata trai simplu
Slovak - �it jednoduch�ie tak, aby aj in� mohli jednoducho �it
Venetian - vivare in maniera pi� senplice de modo che anca i altri possa senplicemente vivare
Sicilian - campari cchi� semplicementi, in modu ca l'autri ponnu semplicementi campari
Flemish - eenvoudiger leven doet eenvoudigweg leven
Ferrarese - vivar pi� chiet, acs� c'anca i altar i p�sa chieti vivar 

_________________

All languages, please click on this link
http://www.rol.it/owa-k/press.frasiproc.carica?code=424
_________________

To unsubscribe from Verba Volant, please follow this link:
http://www.rol.it/owa-k/press.rol_ml.verbavolant 
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alternatively write to the following address: unsubscribe_volant at rol.it always copying the EMAIL address written after "TO:"




From oa at acm.org  Thu Oct 18 08:25:05 2001
From: oa at acm.org (Optimizzin Al-gorithm)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 08:25:05 -0700
Subject: Non-verbal IQ testing
Message-ID: <3BCEF450.EC24B542@acm.org>


At 08:24 PM 10/17/01 -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote:,
>     Dream on, white boy. Sheee-it -- whites can't even talk as fast as
blacks,
>just listen to hiphop sometime

Talking is not the same as thinking.  Look at politicians.




From mattke.sascha at guj-koeln.de  Thu Oct 18 05:26:25 2001
From: mattke.sascha at guj-koeln.de (Sascha Mattke)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 08:26:25 -0400
Subject: Risks of bogus e-mail addresses "FROM: ObL" (Wayner, RISKS-21.68)
Message-ID: 

That news is nonsense.  I talked with the priest who was cited on vnunet.
He said that some Filipino members of his church received that sms and were
also questioned by the police (very politely, he stressed), but this was in
no way related to receiving the sms.  The padre basically said that the
story was made up by a leftist ngo called Migrante International, then
printed without research by the inquirer, and then found its way on the net.
He and some Filipinos are now demanding the ngo to apologize for spreading
fear with the relatives of the questioned people.

Sascha Mattke, Redaktion BIZZ, Stolberger Strasse 200, 50933 Koeln
Tel +49 (0) 221 - 5341-575  mattke.sascha at bizz.de  http://www.bizz.de




From oa at acm.org  Thu Oct 18 08:42:59 2001
From: oa at acm.org (Optimizzin Al-gorithm)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 08:42:59 -0700
Subject: govt-licensed broadcaster bans songs
Message-ID: <3BCEF882.7BF60173@acm.org>


http://michaelmoore.com/2001_0922.html :

... He passed on to me a confidential memo from the radio conglomerate
that
owns his station: Clear Channel, the company that has bought up 1,200
stations altogether -- 247 of them in the nation's 250 largest radio
markets -- and that not only dominates the Top 40 format, but controls
60% of all rock-radio listening.

The company has ordered its stations not to play a list of 150 songs
during this "national emergency." The list, incredibly, includes "Bridge

Over Troubled Water," "Peace Train," and John Lennon's "Imagine."


[ Ed note: they should have included Brian Eno's BURNING AIRLINES GIVE
YOU SO MUCH MORE.  They got Talking Head's BURNING DOWN THE HOUSE
but not LIFE DURING WARTIME.]



===

http://michaelmoore.com/mirrors/banned_songs_list1.htm


From: Independent Media Center
http://radio.indymedia.org:8081

Songs banned on corporate radio Tuesday 18 Sep 2001
author: microradio at lists.tao.ca

summary
Another Gathering of Judgment Calls in the Wake of Disaster September
14, 2001

Source



In response to Tuesday's terrorist attacks, Clear Channel, the
world's largest radio network, has sent out a list of some 150
"lyrically questionable" songs by everyone from the Animals to the
Zombies to its radio stations, recommending that the songs not be
aired. Some songs are overtly violent in their intent, but the
majority simply contain metaphorical language or narrative aspects
that connect uncomfortably with the tragedy.

http://www.hitsdailydouble.com/news/songs.html

Clear Channel's List of
Songs with Questionable Lyrics

Artist Title

Drowning Pool "Bodies"
Mudvayne "Death Blooms"
Megadeth "Dread and the Fugitive"
Megadeth "Sweating Bullets"
Saliva "Click Click Boom"
P.O.D. "Boom"
Metallica "Seek and Destroy"
Metallica "Harvester or Sorrow"
Metallica "Enter Sandman"
Metallica "Fade to Black"
All Rage Against The Machine songs
Nine Inch Nails "Head Like a Hole"
Godsmack "Bad Religion"
Tool "Intolerance"
Soundgarden "Blow Up the Outside World"
AC/DC "Shot Down in Flames"
AC/DC "Shoot to Thrill"
AC/DC "Dirty Deeds"
AC/DC "Highway to Hell"
AC/DC "Safe in New York City"
AC/DC "TNT"
AC/DC "Hell's Bells"
Black Sabbath "War Pigs"
Black Sabbath "Sabbath Bloody Sabbath"
Black Sabbath "Suicide Solution"
Dio "Holy Diver"
Steve Miller "Jet Airliner"
Van Halen "Jump"
Queen "Another One Bites the Dust"
Queen "Killer Queen"
Pat Benatar "Hit Me with Your Best Shot"
Pat Benatar "Love is a Battlefield"
Oingo Boingo "Dead Man's Party"
REM "It's the End of the World as We Know It"
Talking Heads "Burning Down the House"
Judas Priest "Some Heads Are Gonna Roll"
Pink Floyd "Run Like Hell"
Pink Floyd "Mother"
Savage Garden "Crash and Burn"
Dave Matthews Band "Crash Into Me"
Bangles "Walk Like an Egyptian"
Pretenders "My City Was Gone"
Alanis Morissette "Ironic"
Barenaked Ladies "Falling for the First Time"
Fuel "Bad Day"
John Parr "St. Elmo's Fire"
Peter Gabriel "When You're Falling"
Kansas "Dust in the Wind"
Led Zeppelin "Stairway to Heaven"
The Beatles "A Day in the Life"
The Beatles "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds"
The Beatles "Ticket To Ride"
The Beatles "Obla Di, Obla Da"
Bob Dylan/Guns N Roses "Knockin' on Heaven's Door"
Arthur Brown "Fire"
Blue Oyster Cult "Burnin' For You"
Paul McCartney and Wings "Live and Let Die"
Jimmy Hendrix "Hey Joe"
Jackson Brown "Doctor My Eyes"
John Mellencamp "Crumbling Down"
John Mellencamp "I'm On Fire"
U2 "Sunday Bloody Sunday"
Boston "Smokin"
Billy Joel "Only the Good Die Young"
Barry McGuire "Eve of Destruction"
Steam "Na Na Na Na Hey Hey"
Drifters "On Broadway"
Shelly Fabares "Johnny Angel"
Los Bravos "Black is Black"
Peter and Gordon "I Go To Pieces"
Peter and Gordon "A World Without Love"
Elvis "(You're the) Devil in Disguise"
Zombies "She's Not There"
Elton John "Benny & The Jets"
Elton John "Daniel"
Elton John "Rocket Man"
Jerry Lee Lewis "Great Balls of Fire"
Santana "Evil Ways"
Louis Armstrong "What A Wonderful World"
Youngbloods "Get Together"
Ad Libs "The Boy from New York City"
Peter Paul and Mary "Blowin' in the Wind"
Peter Paul and Mary "Leavin' on a Jet Plane"
Rolling Stones "Ruby Tuesday"
Simon And Garfunkel "Bridge Over Troubled Water"
Happenings "See You in Septemeber"
Carole King "I Feel the Earth Move"
Yager and Evans "In the Year 2525"
Norman Greenbaum "Spirit in the Sky"
Brooklyn Bridge "Worst That Could Happen"
Three Degrees "When Will I See You Again"
Cat Stevens "Peace Train"
Cat Stevens "Morning Has Broken"
Jan and Dean "Dead Man's Curve"
Martha & the Vandellas "Nowhere to Run"
Martha and the Vandellas/Van Halen "Dancing in the Streets"
Hollies "He Ain't Heavy, He's My Brother"
San Cooke Herman Hermits, "Wonder World"
Petula Clark "A Sign of the Times"
Don McLean "American Pie"
J. Frank Wilson "Last Kiss"
Buddy Holly and the Crickets "That'll Be the Day"
John Lennon "Imagine"
Bobby Darin "Mack the Knife"
The Clash "Rock the Casbah"
Surfaris "Wipeout"
Blood Sweat and Tears "And When I Die"
Dave Clark Five "Bits and Pieces"
Tramps "Disco Inferno"
Paper Lace "The Night Chicago Died"
Frank Sinatra "New York, New York"
Creedence Clearwater Revival "Travelin' Band"
The Gap Band "You Dropped a Bomb On Me"
Alien Ant Farm "Smooth Criminal"
3 Doors Down "Duck and Run"
The Doors "The End"
Third Eye Blind "Jumper"
Neil Diamond "America"
Lenny Kravitz "Fly Away"
Tom Petty "Free Fallin'"
Bruce Springsteen "I'm On Fire"
Bruce Springsteen "Goin' Down"
Phil Collins "In the Air Tonight"
Alice in Chains "Rooster"
Alice in Chains "Sea of Sorrow"
Alice in Chains "Down in a Hole"
Alice in Chains "Them Bone"
Beastie Boys "Sure Shot"
Beastie Boys "Sabotage"
The Cult "Fire Woman"
Everclear "Santa Monica"
Filter "Hey Man, Nice Shot"
Foo Fighters "Learn to Fly"
Korn "Falling Away From Me"
Red Hot Chili Peppers "Aeroplane"
Red Hot Chili Peppers "Under the Bridge"
Smashing Pumpkins "Bullet With Butterfly Wings"
System of a Down "Chop Suey!"
Skeeter Davis "End of the World"
Rickey Nelson "Travelin' Man"
Chi-Lites "Have You Seen Her"
Animals "We Gotta Get Out of This Place"
Fontella Bass "Rescue Me"
Mitch Ryder and the Detroit Wheels "Devil with the Blue Dress"
James Taylor "Fire and Rain"
Edwin Starr/Bruce Springstein "War"
Lynyrd Skynyrd "Tuesday's Gone"
Limp Bizkit "Break Stuff"
Green Day "Brain Stew"
Temple of the Dog "Say Hello to Heaven"
Sugar Ray "Fly"
Local H "Bound for the Floor"
Slipknot "Left Behind, Wait and Bleed"
Bush "Speed Kills"
311 "Down"
Stone Temple Pilots "Big Bang Baby," Dead and Bloated"
Soundgarden "Fell on Black Days," Black Hole Sun"
Nina "99 Luft Balloons/99 Red Balloons"
++++++


Burned all my notebooks, what good are notebooks?
                         They won't help me survive
                   My chest is aching, burns like a furnace
                         the burning keeps me alive
                    Try to stay healthy, physical fitness
                       don't want to catch no disease
                  Try to be careful, don't take no chances
                       you better watch what you say




From oa at acm.org  Thu Oct 18 08:51:38 2001
From: oa at acm.org (Optimizzin Al-gorithm)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 08:51:38 -0700
Subject: Detainees, Personal Libertarianism, and Vengeance
Message-ID: <3BCEFA8A.A1B846B@acm.org>


At 11:59 PM 10/17/01 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Torturing and murdering the innocent children of someone who may --
>let's even stipulate a moment of malice -- have written an article
>that misquoted you is not exactly behavior that civilized society
>should applaud.

Depends.  Males, including what are now called 'minors', of the defeated

may be killed at will, according to the (admittedly archaic but still
worshipped) texts of the dominant religions in places like US, Arabia,
etc.

According to the pissed off arabs, the US has been starving arab
children.
The US certainly hauled asian children out to the desert
in the last official war.  Just label them 'collateral damage', drop
some vegetarian rations on them, and you can feel good about yourself
while you
count your cropdusters..




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Thu Oct 18 08:52:03 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 08:52:03 -0700
Subject: Detainees, Personal Libertarianism, and Vengeance
In-Reply-To: <6FD45F26-C39C-11D5-8249-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: 


C'punks,

Tim May wrote:

> Both of you [Declan McCullagh and "Nomen
> Nescio"] are using my comments out of
> context...

He further wrote:

> However, I continue to be amused that
> Sandy, Seth, John, and poor Nomen are
> all predicting that I'm about to be
> arrested.

As long as we are setting the record straight, I have to correct Tim's
comments made out of context.  I have never predicted that he was about to
be arrested.


 S a n d y




From oa at acm.org  Thu Oct 18 08:54:26 2001
From: oa at acm.org (Optimizzin Al-gorithm)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 08:54:26 -0700
Subject: Next act of the drama ?
Message-ID: <3BCEFB31.C35B2DF5@acm.org>


At 11:58 PM 10/17/01 -0400, Dave Emery wrote:
>Cc: sme2 at yahoogroups.com
>
>Folks, the MSP has placed the following BE ON THE LOOK OUT BULLETIN
(BOLO)
>for a theft that occurred in New Jersey yesterday of a 45 foot
>trailer/truck combo with hazardous chemicals inside:

Nice of them not to inform the public of the chems themselves,
which would be useful.

Got Phosgene?




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Thu Oct 18 09:01:21 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 09:01:21 -0700
Subject: Kill Killfile
In-Reply-To: <3BCE9933.4A27AAD0@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: 


Ken Brown wrote:

> I think I'm coming to believe the canard
> about Americans having no sense of irony.

Perhaps MY use of irony is too subtle for someone raised on Monty Python to
detect and appreciate.  Perhaps this will help:

When it comes to florid writing, that John Young is a real goer, hey?  (Wink
wink, nudge nudge, say no more, say no more.)  :'D


 S a n d y




From oa at acm.org  Thu Oct 18 09:03:27 2001
From: oa at acm.org (Optimizzin Al-gorithm)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 09:03:27 -0700
Subject: Kill Killfile
Message-ID: <3BCEFD4F.B250BF65@acm.org>


At 12:03 AM 10/18/01 -1000, Reese wrote:
> >it?) we mean the *exact* *opposite* of what we seem to be saying. And

> >when we use this sort of supercilious sneer (pay attention now, it is

> >very subtle) we mean both what we are apparently saying *and* its
> >opposite, simultaneously, the two held in tension in an unstable
melange
> >of fractal meaning.
>
>Otherwise known as Cognitive Dissonance.  Draw your own conclusions.

And quantum superposition.  Put that in your pipe and toast it.




From oa at acm.org  Thu Oct 18 09:10:03 2001
From: oa at acm.org (Optimizzin Al-gorithm)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 09:10:03 -0700
Subject: used lab equiptment
Message-ID: <3BCEFEDB.11A6D6C0@acm.org>


For sale, used:
1 incubator & culturing gear
2 freeze drying equiptment
3 ultrasonicator capable of powderizing to 1 micron




From kris24 at mccraw.cc  Thu Oct 18 09:35:19 2001
From: kris24 at mccraw.cc (kris24 at mccraw.cc)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 09:35:19
Subject: Protect your brain from cell phone radiation
Message-ID: <706.194113.222996@aol.com>

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From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Thu Oct 18 01:56:19 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 09:56:19 +0100
Subject: Kill Killfile
References: 
Message-ID: <3BCE9933.4A27AAD0@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> 
> John Young wrote:
> 
> > And another excellent quality of cpunks...is
> > the number of its outstanding writers sent
> > to jail...
> 
> Offhand, I can't think of one outstanding C'punk writer who has gone to
> jail.  Hell, they haven't even put John in jail.

I think I'm coming to believe the canard about Americans having no sense
of irony.  And even the one about New York and points East still being
more like Europe in some ways than it is like the USA south and west of
the Hudson.

Of course in JY's case it is sometimes irony that reads as if it has
been filtered through the fingers of one who has been to more than one
party since he last slept, and has read way too much art history and
cultural criticism.

A guide to you Pacific People. When us Atlantic People say something
with this little twitch in our voice (just listen - there - did you hear
it?) we mean the *exact* *opposite* of what we seem to be saying. And
when we use this sort of supercilious sneer (pay attention now, it is
very subtle) we mean both what we are apparently saying *and* its 
opposite, simultaneously, the two held in tension in an unstable melange
of fractal meaning.

It's a Good Life.

Ken Brown




From oa at acm.org  Thu Oct 18 10:11:43 2001
From: oa at acm.org (Optimizzin Al-gorithm)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 10:11:43 -0700
Subject: Who represents the detained? Nobody...
Message-ID: <3BCF0D4E.FB1A668A@acm.org>


At 12:28 PM 10/18/01 -0400, An Metet wrote:
>     And it's pretty fucking obvious that you have never been
>in any situation dealing with the police either, right, asshole?
>Even before 9/11, it was not at all uncommon to be rousted by the
>pigs, hauled off to jail, and refused the right to call a lawyer
>or anyone else, simply for the crime of looking "not quite right"
>or black, or radical, or what the fuck ever.

Everyone seems to have forgotten about NYPD's fondness for plungers
up the butt, or perforating immigrants offering their wallet.

Maybe a building falling on them was Infinite Justice.




From keyser-soze at hushmail.com  Thu Oct 18 10:32:58 2001
From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 10:32:58 -0700
Subject: used lab equiptment
Message-ID: <200110181732.f9IHWwX03975@mailserver1c.hushmail.com>


A specialized ultrasonic device is not required to produce micron fine aerosol powders.  All one needs is a used and cleaned print head assembly and its piezo pulse circuitry.  Nozzle apertures are typically 25-50 micron and if the material is suspended, in weak concentration, in a solution which quickly evaporates but doesn't harm the spores it should produce moderate quantities of fine powder quickly.  

If smaller sizes are desired a field ring charged to 1000-3000v DC can be placed around and in front of the nozzles.  If operated in sync with the nozzle pulses it can cause a the emerging droplets to cascade to nanometer size via the electrospray effect (now becoming common in drug production).  See http://www.essex.ac.uk/bs/staff/colbeck/index.htm#appas




From morlockelloi at yahoo.com  Thu Oct 18 10:55:36 2001
From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 10:55:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: govt-licensed broadcaster bans songs
In-Reply-To: <20011018131626.B15018@ils.unc.edu>
Message-ID: <20011018175536.75996.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com>


> Do a little research, man.  Clear Channel denied this,

No shit ?

PR dept. docs are now the "proof" ?

http://slate.msn.com/code/chatterbox/chatterbox.asp?Show=9/18/2001&idMessage=8318
:

Last night when Chatterbox spoke with Jack Evans, a regional senior vice
president of programming at the radio station chain Clear Channel
Communications, he acknowledged that his company had distributed to its
programmers a list of songs with questionable lyrics that stations
should avoid in the wake of the Sept. 11 attack. (Click here for his
original statements on the list, and scroll down for the content of the
list itself.)

Today, however, Clear Channel issued a press release denying the
existence of the list, and the Web site of Radio Ink, a radio industry
trade publication, reported, "Clear Channel confirmed to Radio Ink this
morning that the banned list was only an Internet rumor."

So what's the truth here? Clear Channel admits it distributed a list of
songs to program directors. It obviously wasn't encouraging stations to
play songs like "Another One Bites the Dust." If you read the press
release carefully, it appears Clear Channel is weaseling out of sticky
situation: "Clear Channel Radio has not banned any songs from any of its
radio stations." Right. They didn't ban any songs, they simply asked
that stations not play them. Chatterbox wonders if there's another song
they might want to add to this supposedly nonexistent list: a little
something by the Sex Pistols.



http://slate.msn.com/code/chatterbox/chatterbox.asp?Show=9/17/2001&idMessage=8314
:

Jack Evans, a regional senior VP of programming at Clear Channel
insisted this list was not an effort initiated by management: "After and
during what was happening in New York and Washington and outside of
Pittsburgh, some of our program directors began e-mailing each other
about songs and questionable song titles," though the finished list was
distributed to the program directors by Clear Channel management.

Evans concedes that some of the songs are off base: "I think there were
certainly songs on the list that people were reading too much into" (the
Beastie Boys' "Sabotage," perchance?) though he supports the list in
general. "There were a substantial amount of songs in question that I'm
glad the [program directors] brought up so we didn't air them at a very,
very sad time." You can judge for yourself. Here's the list, with
original spellings intact.


=====
end
(of original message)

Y-a*h*o-o (yes, they scan for this) spam follows:
Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
http://personals.yahoo.com




From anonymous at anonymizer.com  Thu Oct 18 11:09:00 2001
From: anonymous at anonymizer.com (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 11:09 -0700
Subject: Who represents the detained? Nobody..
Message-ID: <200110181809.LAA09969@sirius.infonex.com>


wl p An Metet raged on:

>     And it's pretty fucking obvious that you >have never been 
>in any situation dealing with the police either, >right, asshole?
>Even before 9/11, it was not at all uncommon to >be rousted by the
>pigs, hauled off to jail, and refused the right >to call a lawyer
>or anyone else, simply for the crime of >looking "not quite right"
>or black, or radical, or what the fuck ever. 
>   There have been numerous cases of people >being arrested and held
>for weeks, right here in the good old USA, with >no charges, no
>phone calls, no rights. Think you really have >rights? Just 
>get into any sort of confrontation with the pigs >and try talking
>about rights and see what happens. People get >beat all the time.
>   Fuck you, you stupid little piece of shit -- >I'd like to give
>you just a tenth of the beatings I've had from >the pigs. 
>wl p

If this is an example of your communication style it's no wonder you've had the shit beat out of you by the cops and I wish them well doing it.  I have been arrested, jailed, lunched with ex State Attorneys, chatted with FBI, bickered with the NSA, watched homicide detectives get a statement from the person who butchered and dismembered my best friend, have an ex-cop relative, had a guy beat almost to death with baseball bats on my front step while the 'pigs' responded code 3 to save his fucking life, lived in warzone ghettos.  Don't tell me about not having any experience with cops.

Your incoherent ranting fails to account for there being good and bad on both sides of the blue line, and frankly I'll take a confrontation with a "pig" over a confrontation with a maniac like you any day.  At least they sort of screen out as many psychopaths as possible.




From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Thu Oct 18 11:27:48 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 11:27:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Who represents the detained? Nobody..
In-Reply-To: <200110181809.LAA09969@sirius.infonex.com> from "Anonymous"
  at Oct 18, 2001 11:09:00 AM
Message-ID: <200110181827.f9IIRmw25817@artifact.psychedelic.net>


An Anonymous Coward Spews:

> If this is an example of your communication style it's no wonder you've
> had the shit beat out of you by the cops and I wish them well doing it.

The test of a cop acting professionally is not whether he treats
well-scrubbed polite little suckups like yourself decently.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From schear at lvcm.com  Thu Oct 18 11:29:52 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 11:29:52 -0700
Subject: Who represents the detained? Nobody..
In-Reply-To: <200110181809.LAA09969@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011018112829.03d03d98@pop3.lvcm.com>


At 11:09 AM 10/18/2001 -0700, Anonymous  wrote:
>Your incoherent ranting fails to account for there being good and bad on 
>both sides of the blue line, and frankly I'll take a confrontation with a 
>"pig" over a confrontation with a maniac like you any day.  At least they 
>sort of screen out as many psychopaths as possible.

Unfortunately for all of us the ones that slip through now have the force 
of law and the wall of silence behind them.

steve




From anonymous at anonymizer.com  Thu Oct 18 11:54:00 2001
From: anonymous at anonymizer.com (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 11:54 -0700
Subject: Who represents the detained? Nobody..
Message-ID: <200110181854.LAA13367@sirius.infonex.com>


The test of intelligence is the ability to reconcile contradictory stimulus and make the better decision, dickhead muthafuckah.

Like I said, there's good and bad on both sides of the line.  Most cops will behave a fuck of a lot more responsibly than most people like you.
It doesn't mean I suck up to cops, it just means I deal with them more intelligently than you.

>An Anonymous Coward Spews:
>
>> If this is an example of your communication >style it's no wonder you've
>> had the shit beat out of you by the cops and I >wish them well doing it.
>
>The test of a cop acting professionally is not >whether he treats
>well-scrubbed polite little suckups like >yourself >decently.


-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From auto301094 at hushmail.com  Thu Oct 18 12:18:06 2001
From: auto301094 at hushmail.com (auto301094 at hushmail.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 12:18:06 -0700
Subject: Brookings Counterterrorism Briefing Friday
Message-ID: <200110181918.f9IJI6t09988@mailserver1.hushmail.com>

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From jamesd at echeque.com  Thu Oct 18 12:18:10 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 12:18:10 -0700
Subject: Non-verbal IQ testing
In-Reply-To: <20011017185140.A2391@navel.introspect>
References: <3BCE2F48.491BF7C8@cybershamanix.com>; from 
  hseaver@cybershamanix.com on Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 08:24:47PM -0500
Message-ID: <3BCEC882.23715.109BC7@localhost>


    --
Harmon Seaver (hseaver at cybershamanix.com) wrote:
> > And asians are first? What sport do they prevail in?

On 17 Oct 2001, at 18:51, Karsten M. Self wrote:
> Ping-pong.  Not half bad at baseball and basketball either.

Ping pong is of course a sport that is primarily a test of
reaction time, and thus is as much a measure of the
efficiency of neurons as running is a measure of the
efficiency of muscle fibres. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     aVVE2mCstrTGdU2P2TPh09ntCOzq4qcSMhf3wPpN
     4s1CvSAymEPaNGPgQh5vHOwlK93zrTiRGZNwwDAfi




From citizenQ at ziplip.com  Thu Oct 18 12:18:11 2001
From: citizenQ at ziplip.com (citizenQ)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 12:18:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: what ever happened to Aimee??
Message-ID: 


wasn't the list bearing any fruit?




From anmetet at freedom.gmsociety.org  Thu Oct 18 09:28:06 2001
From: anmetet at freedom.gmsociety.org (An Metet)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 12:28:06 -0400
Subject: Who represents the detained? Nobody...
Message-ID: <428a76f91ca453a6596cb80794119e6f@freedom.gmsociety.org>


Anonymous whined:

> 
> It's nice that there's a forum available to you 
> where you are free to assert and assume whatever 
> you wish, without the inconvenience of any 
> substantiation.
 

     And it's pretty fucking obvious that you have never been 
in any situation dealing with the police either, right, asshole?
Even before 9/11, it was not at all uncommon to be rousted by the
pigs, hauled off to jail, and refused the right to call a lawyer
or anyone else, simply for the crime of looking "not quite right"
or black, or radical, or what the fuck ever. 
   There have been numerous cases of people being arrested and held
for weeks, right here in the good old USA, with no charges, no
phone calls, no rights. Think you really have rights? Just 
get into any sort of confrontation with the pigs and try talking
about rights and see what happens. People get beat all the time.
   Fuck you, you stupid little piece of shit -- I'd like to give
you just a tenth of the beatings I've had from the pigs. 
wl p




From auto301094 at hushmail.com  Thu Oct 18 12:40:21 2001
From: auto301094 at hushmail.com (auto301094 at hushmail.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 12:40:21 -0700
Subject: Expert Warns Coded Pictures Indicate Al Qaeda Planning Major
  Biological Attack
Message-ID: <200110181940.f9IJeL013812@mailserver1.hushmail.com>

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From anmetet at freedom.gmsociety.org  Thu Oct 18 09:43:58 2001
From: anmetet at freedom.gmsociety.org (An Metet)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 12:43:58 -0400
Subject: Microsoft DRM - Technical description
Message-ID: <917078772eb378a8d7641aaa648fed88@anonymous>

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From pcw2 at flyzone.com  Thu Oct 18 10:15:31 2001
From: pcw2 at flyzone.com (Peter Wayner)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 13:15:31 -0400
Subject: Baltimore Digital Commerce Society-- Korhammer on Lava Trading,
  Nov 6
Message-ID: <200110181719.f9IHJjf06356@slack.lne.com>


This event was originally scheduled for October 2nd, but it is being 
pushed back to November 6th because Lava Trading used to be located 
on the 83rd floor of the WTC. Richard Korhammer's office was only 50 
feet away from where the plane hit. Miraculously all of the company 
survived. Korhammer was across the street with a client during the 
entire event.

But please come to listen to hear about their company not about the 
WTC. They're almost back on-line after having their entire office 
destroyed.  These guys are building a very cool, cross-exchange tool. 
It constantly keeps track of the bids and asks on a number of 
exchanges letting you send your business to where the prices are 
best. It's fascinating to watch the screen update the quotes in real 
time.

This kind of semi-automated, trading assistance is bound to become 
more and more prevalent. I think Lava Trading is doing some of the 
most interesting stuff around.

-Peter



Baltimore Digital Commerce Society

Tuesday October 2, 12:30

Speaker: Richard Korhammer, CEO of Lava Trading (www.lavatrading.com)

Topic: Networks as Markets-- Why Exchanges are Becoming Virtual


Richard Korhammer is the CEO of LavaTrading, one
of the startup companies in New York diving into
cross-market arbitrage. Their network links
together all of the important market makers in
ECNs and keeps track of all bids and offers.
Buyers and sellers using the technology
automatically get pointers to the best price
possible. Traders with large blocks of stock do
substantially better because Lava Trading will
break up their block to match it with the best
price available across all of the markets. This
cross-market arbitrage improves liquidity for the
market and makes it simpler for traders with large
blocks of stock to wade into the marketplace
without leaving a wake.

In his talk, Korhammer will explore how fast
networking and sophisticated servers can
supplement and potentially replace the old
fashioned stock exchange. Traders won't need to
come to one place or one exchange to search for
the best price because the network can constantly
sort through all buyers and sellers. Korhammer
believes that adding intelligence to the network
and the servers supporting is more efficient than
requiring traders to manually manage an otherwise
complicated marketplace.

Will these cross-exchange tools supplant the
exchange? Will they eventually become the
exchange? Will the disintermediation eventually
make all trading a transparent event?






Location:  11 West Mount Vernon Place, Baltimore,
MD

Directions: The Engineering Society lies in the
shadow of Baltimore's Washington monument in the
center of town. From downtown, take Charles St
north to the monument. The Society is to  the left
on Monument Street. From the north, take 83 south
to Maryland Avenue exit. Follow Maryland Avenue
south until Monument Street. The Society is to the
left.

Or look at this map:
http://maps.yahoo.com/py/maps.py?BFCat=&Pyt=Tmap&newFL=Use+Address+Below&add
r=11+Mount+Vernon+Place&csz=Baltimore%2C+MD+21201&country=us&Get%07Map=Get+M
ap


Cost: $14 for a lunch buffet

Questions: pcw at flyzone.com




From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu  Thu Oct 18 10:16:27 2001
From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 13:16:27 -0400
Subject: govt-licensed broadcaster bans songs
In-Reply-To: <3BCEF882.7BF60173@acm.org>
References: <3BCEF882.7BF60173@acm.org>
Message-ID: <20011018131626.B15018@ils.unc.edu>


Do a little research, man.  Clear Channel denied this,
and even posted a luke-warm press release about it.  Do a simple
search at groups.google.com , you'll see about a thousand
different messages in different forums where this 
was discussed.

I'm not saying it's a hoax, but there's a lot more to
the story (or a lot less) than the month-old message
you circulated.  Better luck next time...
  -- Greg

On Thu, Oct 18, 2001 at 08:42:59AM -0700, Optimizzin Al-gorithm wrote:
> 
> http://michaelmoore.com/2001_0922.html :
> 
> ... He passed on to me a confidential memo from the radio conglomerate
> that
> owns his station: Clear Channel, the company that has bought up 1,200
> stations altogether -- 247 of them in the nation's 250 largest radio
> markets -- and that not only dominates the Top 40 format, but controls
> 60% of all rock-radio listening.
> 
> The company has ordered its stations not to play a list of 150 songs
> during this "national emergency." The list, incredibly, includes "Bridge
> 
> Over Troubled Water," "Peace Train," and John Lennon's "Imagine."
> 
> 
> [ Ed note: they should have included Brian Eno's BURNING AIRLINES GIVE
> YOU SO MUCH MORE.  They got Talking Head's BURNING DOWN THE HOUSE
> but not LIFE DURING WARTIME.]
> 
> 
> 
> ===
> 
> http://michaelmoore.com/mirrors/banned_songs_list1.htm
> 
> 
> From: Independent Media Center
> http://radio.indymedia.org:8081
> 
> Songs banned on corporate radio Tuesday 18 Sep 2001
> author: microradio at lists.tao.ca
> 
> summary
> Another Gathering of Judgment Calls in the Wake of Disaster September
> 14, 2001
..




From oa at acm.org  Thu Oct 18 13:47:16 2001
From: oa at acm.org (Optimizzin Al-gorithm)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 13:47:16 -0700
Subject: "Expert" fooled by Bert Stego
Message-ID: <3BCF3FD3.458A94E0@acm.org>


At 12:40 PM 10/18/01 -0700, auto301094 at hushmail.com wrote:
>
>Expert Warns Al Qaeda Planning Major Biological Attack
>
>DefenseWatch: One of the illustrations shows Osama bin Laden next to a
cartoon
>character from Sesame Street. What significance does that image have?
>
>The Sesame Street character that has appeared in a huge poster with
Osama bin
>Laden is significant in that it is yellow and has a mask-like quality.
And one
>can be certain that it was not placed on that huge poster by accident,
as some people have stupidly suggested. It is a signal.

Bert Stego?  Occam's razor, dude.


>Robert Koontz is an experimental nuclear physicist who earned his Ph.D.
in 1980
>at the University of Maryland. His specialties are experimental nuclear

>physics and high-energy physics, but he is also an expert in certain
areas of
>electronics, computer systems, software development and matters
relating to
>electronic intelligence gathering. Koontz has been a Staff Scientist at
the
>Department of Energys Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory, a Professor of
Physics at
>the University of South Dakota, and formerly was an instructor at the
National
>Security Agency.He lives in Pennsylvania.

He might be smart, and the rest of what he says is interesting,
but he has paranoid delusions W.R.T. Bert.




From jal at abulafia.com  Thu Oct 18 14:08:40 2001
From: jal at abulafia.com (Jamie Lawrence)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 14:08:40 -0700
Subject: Another precious moment from shrub...
In-Reply-To: <3BC50443.18636.3A5DA4@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011008121209.00af9c40@127.0.0.1>
 <3BC0FE21.7584.390438@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011018120159.0265eec8@10.0.0.2>



>James A. Donald:

[...]

>During that term all these war efforts collapsed, or
>diminished to a pale shadow of their former selves, making
>democratic elections possible, elections that for the most
>part returned governments far more capitalist than the
>previous regimes. 

Pardon, you're so right.

Now that I reflect on it, I am positive that the free voting, free
dealing citizens who democratically elected Perves Musharraf,
Robert Mugabe, Kim Jong-Il and Mullah Omar to wisely govern
their free market economies feel they owe a great deal to dear
Mr. Reagan. Almost as much as I feel towards our own 
democratically elected (7 to 2) Curious George.

-j




From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Thu Oct 18 05:09:17 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 14:09:17 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: FYI: Speak Freely for Unix 7.5 Pre-Release Available (fwd)
Message-ID: 




-- Eugen* Leitl leitl
______________________________________________________________
ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204
57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 13:52:24 +0200
From: John Walker 
To: Speak Freely Mailing List 
Subject: Speak Freely for Unix 7.5 Pre-Release Available

This announcement pertains only to Speak Freely for Unix.
Users of the Windows version need read no further.

A pre-release of Speak Freely for Unix (Linux, FreeBSD,
Solaris, IRIX, etc.) version 7.5 is now available.  This
release is intended for "early adopters" interested in
testing one or more of the new capabilities and/or
verifying whether problems intended to be resolved in this
release actually have been.  If you're engaged in modifying
Speak Freely or adapting code from it for use in other
applications, the code clean up in this version makes it a
better starting point for your work.

Download Information
--------------------

Speak Freely for Unix 7.5 may be downloaded from:

     http://www.fourmilab.ch/speakfree/unix/download/7.5/speak_freely-7.5.tar.gz

This is a gzipped TAR archive containing complete source code;
the format of the distribution is unchanged from earlier
releases.  The distribution contains a complete development
log in the file "log.doc".  An extract from this document including
all changes in 7.5 and several prior versions may be read
on-line at:

     http://www.fourmilab.ch/speakfree/unix/download/7.5/sfunix_log_7.5.html

New Features
------------

Support has been added for Federal Standard 1016 CELP
(Code-Excited Linear Prediction) audio compression, via
a new "-celp" switch in sfmike.  This algorithm compresses
voice-grade audio to a 4800 bit per second data stream with
quality comparable to that of GSM (13000 bits/second)
compression.  CELP compression (but not decompression)
is fantastically computationally intense.  While a 50 MHz
486 suffices for GSM, the price of admission for CELP
is on the order of a 600 MHz Pentium III or equivalent.
Note that for floating-point intense code like this
performance depends more on processor architecture than
clock rate: a 300 MHz UltraSPARC (v9), which has five
floating point units and can issue two floating point
instructions at once, runs CELP compression about three
times faster than real time notwithstanding its slower
clock.

Sfecho now permits simulation of transmission errors on
poor connections.  A new -z option lets you specify a
percentage of packets to randomly drop and shuffle.  This
allows testing error-tolerant algorithms by running sfecho
on a local machine, set to emulate a channel with
properties like the one the algorithm is intended to
cope with.

Robust transmission mode may now be used with any
compression mode in Speak Freely protocol, not just LPC10.
A separate -robustN option on sfmike sets the number of
sequence numbered copies of each packet to be sent, which
may now be as many as 8.

Processing of robust mode packets in sfmike is greatly
improved over the bonehead algorithm I originally used.
Each packet contains a sequence number which increments
modulo 256.  Previously, packets were discarded only if
they contained precisely the same sequence number as the
immediately preceding one.  The new code computes the
difference between the current packet's sequence number and
that of the last one played (taking account of the modulo
256 wrap-around) and discards the packet if its sequence
number is less than or equal to that of the last packet,
but not more than 16 less.  This should discard most
packets shuffled by multipath routing, while limiting the
maximum loss in the case of intermittent outages which
completely lose sync to at most 16 packets.

A sample speech file containing four sentences spoken by
male and female speakers (originally supplied as a test for
the CELP library) is now included as "speech.au" in the
Speak Freely distribution.  (The original test file was 8
kHz 16 bit PCM--the version supplied in the distribution
has been recoded as 8 kHz mu-law, Speak Freely's native
format.)  This file allows evaluation of different
compression modes and diagnosis of problems due to audio
input hardware settings (clipping, insufficient input gain,
incorrect sampling rate, or conversion to mu-law, etc.) by
comparing live audio against this properly recorded file.

Bug Fixes
---------

Transmission of face images now works when the audio stream
is encrypted.  (Fix by Ivan Popov.)

LPC10 audio compression should no longer be vulnerable to
compiler optimisation problems on various platforms, nor
to potential byte order or alignment problems.  The
original LPC10 codec was machine-translated from FORTRAN
into K&R C and contained numerous constructs which invited
code generation problems.  The code is now fully prototyped
ANSI C and should no longer have portability problems.  It
has been tested on GCC/Intel, SGI/MIPS, and Sun/SPARC
compilers with the highest optimisation settings with without
problems.

Packet sizes printed in -d option output from sfmike are now
correct on little endian platforms.

Robust transmission mode for LPC10 (-lpc10rN) failed when
sfmike was run on a little-endian platform--fixed.

Compression modes displayed by the -d and -v option output
from sfecho and sfreflect are now correct on little-endian
platforms.

Code Clean-Up
-------------

All of the files in Speak Freely, including the compression
and encryption libraries, have now been converted to ANSI
C with all functions prototyped.  Every file now compiles
without any warnings in a "-Wall" compile with GCC
2.96, including warnings resulting from code re-ordering
and unrolling in an "-O4" compilation.

Sflwld multi-thread operation (configured by compiling with
-DTHREADS and linking with -lpthreads) has been tested on
Linux (GCC 2.96, Kernel 2.4.2-2).  Previously it had been
tested only on Sun Solaris.

Compatibility Notes
-------------------

CELP compression and robust transmission for compression
modes other than LPC10 are new in this release.  If you
transmit in these modes to a prior version of Speak Freely
for Unix or any presently available version of Speak Freely
for Windows, the results will be unrewarding.  Nothing
awful will happen, but the audio received may range from
silence, weird science fiction sound effects, or a
"Ma-Ma-Max Headroom" type stutter.


                      * * *

To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send E-mail containing
the word "unsubscribe" in the message body (*not* as the
Subject) to speak-freely-request at fourmilab.ch





From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu  Thu Oct 18 11:27:32 2001
From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 14:27:32 -0400
Subject: govt-licensed broadcaster bans songs
In-Reply-To: <20011018175536.75996.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20011018131626.B15018@ils.unc.edu>
  <20011018175536.75996.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20011018142731.A19539@ils.unc.edu>


Now that's research.  I was just knocking that the only
thing our illustrious arab, Optimizzin, posted was
a sorry article from September 18 that had since
been basted, lambasted and hung out to dry in hundreds
of different forums.  

I want my cypherpunks news to be minty fresh! 
  -- Greg

On Thu, Oct 18, 2001 at 10:55:36AM -0700, Morlock Elloi wrote:
> 
> > Do a little research, man.  Clear Channel denied this,
> 
> No shit ?
> 
> PR dept. docs are now the "proof" ?
> 
> http://slate.msn.com/code/chatterbox/chatterbox.asp?Show=9/18/2001&idMessage=8318
> :
>...




From jal at abulafia.com  Thu Oct 18 14:33:33 2001
From: jal at abulafia.com (Jamie Lawrence)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 14:33:33 -0700
Subject: Expert Warns Coded Pictures Indicate Al Qaeda
  Planning Major Biological Attack
In-Reply-To: <200110181940.f9IJeL013812@mailserver1.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011018142320.02629da8@10.0.0.2>


Sometime around  12:40 PM 10/18/2001 -0700, auto301094 at hushmail.com opined thusly:


>http://ebird.dtic.mil/Oct2001/s20011018expertwarns.htm
>
>DefenseWatch (SFTT.org)
>October 17, 2001
>
>Expert Warns Al Qaeda Planning Major Biological Attack


Kook. 

http://www.doctorkoontz.com/philosophy/essays/other_essays/other_essay002.htm

Reminds me a little of Ray Kurzweil; looks like there are
interesting thoughts bouncing around there, but then you
run in to him trying to flirt with a speech synthesizer on stage.

(I'm not kidding; I can't find a link now, but it happened at
the TED conference last year. A similarly embarrassing
thing fills half of _The Age of Spiritual Machines_.)

-j




From frissell at panix.com  Thu Oct 18 11:41:16 2001
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 14:41:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Who represents the detained? Nobody...
In-Reply-To: <3BCF0D4E.FB1A668A@acm.org>
Message-ID: 


On Thu, 18 Oct 2001, Optimizzin Al-gorithm wrote:

> At 12:28 PM 10/18/01 -0400, An Metet wrote:
> >     And it's pretty fucking obvious that you have never been
> >in any situation dealing with the police either, right, asshole?
> >Even before 9/11, it was not at all uncommon to be rousted by the
> >pigs, hauled off to jail, and refused the right to call a lawyer
> >or anyone else, simply for the crime of looking "not quite right"
> >or black, or radical, or what the fuck ever.
>
> Everyone seems to have forgotten about NYPD's fondness for plungers
> up the butt, or perforating immigrants offering their wallet.
>
> Maybe a building falling on them was Infinite Justice.
>


If it was intended to harm the NYPD, it's had the opposite effect:

Note the following man-on-the-street interview (there's a war on we can
use traditional language again):


The Next Big Thing on WNYC radio 29 September 2001

Freddie Torres of the Red Hook Projects in Brooklyn (who describes himself
as a street thug) talks about how The Incident has affected him and his
view of the NYPD.  (3:00 minutes into the segment).  "This is the first
time I can say that New York City cops are good."

http://stream.realimpact.net/rihurl.ram?file=realimpact/wnyc/nbt/tnbt093001f.ra

DCF




From schear at lvcm.com  Thu Oct 18 14:50:11 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 14:50:11 -0700
Subject: Your papers please
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011018144843.03cdb8b8@pop3.lvcm.com>


Everyone knows it is a bad idea to try and board a plane carrying a box 
cutter, a flight manual written in Arabic, or a sack full of mysterious 
white powder. But with ultra-tightened airport security, a book could also 
prevent you from boarding that plane.

No kidding. It happened just last week in Philadelphia.

http://cgi.newcity.com/exitlog/frameset.php?close=http://www.citypaper.net/articles/101801/news.godfrey.shtml&back=http://www.newcity.com

steve




From citizenQ at ziplip.com  Thu Oct 18 14:50:54 2001
From: citizenQ at ziplip.com (citizenQ)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 14:50:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Expert Warns Coded Pictures Indicate Al Qaeda Planning
Message-ID: <10JMD3DZ4QYEUAD2NIMBEB5ZWR4WYF4Q4WFNMFSU@ziplip.com>


Are there any image processing brains out there who can duplicate the results on downf.jpg?

Without the filter kernel and other specific techniques known it's impossible to replicate and verify what this guy says, and after the Bert thingie he does to his credibility, well, you know, Trust but Verify.  Messing around with the original using my graphics software's built-in filters I don't get anything that looks anything like the results on bringmenews.com.  To me it looks doctored.




From mattd at useoz.com  Wed Oct 17 21:52:02 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 14:52:02 +1000
Subject: NOW ITS PERSONAL
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011018144845.00a1c3a0@pop.useoz.com>


"I've got these terrible flu symptoms...)


  S a n d y

*"Bay Area Rapid Transit" for those not familiar with San Francisco."

Sandy sandforts a compliment collector,Id like to be his funeral director.




From gbroiles at well.com  Thu Oct 18 14:57:17 2001
From: gbroiles at well.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 14:57:17 -0700
Subject: Stu Baker on CALEA and the Net
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20011018173653.0222dec0@mail.well.com>
References: <200110182131.OAA02389@smtp.well.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011018144500.036871c0@bivens.parrhesia.com>


At 05:37 PM 10/18/2001 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>I haven't read the CALEA text in a long time, but I think the answer may 
>be yes and no. Stu is a very smart guy, one of the experts on this section 
>of the law, but he could conceivably be overstating the case for his own 
>purposes.
>
>-Declan
>
>At 05:32 PM 10/18/01 -0400, mikecabot at fastcircle.com wrote:
>
>>So is this guy (Stu Baker) just blowing smoke?

I didn't see anywhere where Stu Baker said that he thought this was 
constitutional and/or within the original text of CALEA - the quoted bits I 
saw had him saying that the FBI is drafting regulations which proceed on 
the assumption that they can consider ISP's within CALEA's regulatory 
reach. He talked about the FBI's position, not his position.

I don't think he's likely to take a hard-and-fast stance one way or the 
other on this; he's way too smart to get hung out to dry with a totally 
ridiculous position on a black-or-white legal or factual (or political) 
question. I don't agree with his balancing of security vs. privacy when 
answering policy questions, but he's also very good at what he does and 
represents his clients well; a former employer of mine got some help from 
him which was a godsend at the time, despite what I suspect was his 
personal opposition (or at least ambivalence) towards our mission.

He's a gun-for-hire, not a doctrinaire blinders-on true believer for either 
the surveillance enthusiasts or privacy freaks.

If he's talking about the FBI's reading of CALEA so that it reaches ISP's, 
that may be a good early warning that we're likely to see lots of the 
Beltway crew agreeing - the question is not whether some random cypherpunk 
thinks that's a fair reading of CALEA, the question is whether or not a 
federal judge thinks that's a fair reading, and things like this are 
valuable clues if you're interested in that narrow question.

CALEA implementation has been slow - if the FBI is drafting regs now, 
they're going to have to go through the administrative rulemaking process 
(which I expect they can abbreviate in an "emergency"), publish final regs, 
and give ISP's at least a short time to comply - so we're still talking 
about months or years, not hours or days, so it's way too early for tech 
people to expect to hear about this via work.


--
Greg Broiles
gbroiles at well.com
"We have found and closed the thing you watch us with." -- New Delhi street kids




From unicorn at schloss.li  Thu Oct 18 15:06:30 2001
From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 15:06:30 -0700
Subject: Airlines - the newest members of the international community of nations.
Message-ID: 


From:
http://cgi.newcity.com/exitlog/frameset.php?close=http://www.citypaper.net/a
rticles/101801/news.godfrey.shtml&back=http://www.newcity.com

"'When a passenger passes through security, it is under the jurisdiction of
the airline. We don’t get involved,' he says, adding that stories like
Godfrey’s are likely to become increasingly common."

Wow, I didn't realize airlines had law enforcement powers and
"jurisdictions" akin to those of state actors.




From jet at spies.com  Thu Oct 18 15:09:01 2001
From: jet at spies.com (j eric townsend)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 15:09:01 -0700
Subject: Books being banned on planes...
Message-ID: 


How to get detained and miss your flight.

Twice.

Bring the wrong book with you:

http://www.citypaper.net/articles/101801/news.godfrey.shtml


-- 
J. Eric Townsend -- http://www.spies.com/jet

Were you in USASSG/ACSI/MACV in Vietnam, 1967-1970?  Drop me a line if so...




From dog3 at ns.charc.net  Thu Oct 18 12:18:37 2001
From: dog3 at ns.charc.net (cubic-dog)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 15:18:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Who represents the detained? Nobody...
In-Reply-To: <200110171955.MAA17672@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: 


On Wed, 17 Oct 2001, Anonymous wrote:

> >>>They HAVE representation, and I don't THINK the Bill
> >>>of Rights says anywhere that you get to see Mommy
> >>>if you're arrested, but that you can obtain
> >>>representation, you are not required to incriminate
> >>>yourself, and so forth.  In theory.
> >>
> >>Get a clue. The issue is not "get to see Mommy."
> >>
> >>Rather, the issue is the holding of 600+ various persons, some of whom are 
> >>very vaguely claimed to be "material witnesses."
> >
> >
> >Note too that many of the detained 
> >may not have lawyers.  


What does 
Ex parte milligan 
mean here? 




From Anonymous  Thu Oct 18 15:35:37 2001
From: Anonymous (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 15:35:37 -0700
Subject: Fwd: Reply from Zero-Knowledge
Message-ID: 

My comments integrated below:

 > >I want to start by saying that Zero-Knowledge absolutely does not track or
 > >profile the users of its Freedom Privacy & Security Tools 3.0 software.

	Whenever I turn on Freedom, which, by default, happens when I boot,
it sends a message to ZKS.  EVERY time.  How, again, is this not "tracking"
of my usage behaviour?  How is ZKS knowing every time I boot up that I've
got Freedom 3.0 installed not something they can build a profile about?

 > >Our software loads updates (e.g. Ad Manager files and e-wallet scripts) as
 > >well as privacy-related content via HTTP. This was the case with previous
 > >versions of the software and is still true today, although today it may
 > >appear more prominent since we have designed Freedom 3.0 with a new user
 > >interface and are carrying more privacy content.

	I can't comment on Freedom 2.0, but this doesn't change any of
my comments.

 > >This HTTP activity is covered by our privacy policies.

	I don't doubt it.

 > >As for cookies, Zero-Knowledge has always used cookies on its websites, for
 > >the purposes of store-, affiliate- and state-management. These 
practices are
 > >also reflected in our privacy policies.

	And EVERY time I turn on my Freedom client (usually at startup) it
sends a request, info I don't have a clue about (And those cookies, when
the domain in zeroknowledge.com and when I use IE as my browser, are sent
back to ZKS whenever they're in my IE cache and I open ZKS.


	And, of course, there's the fact that Freedom notifies everyone
between my computer and zeroknowledge.com that I'm using freedom.  Which,
of course, is covered by the Pen trace and trap warrants, and is collected
by carnivore.  Now I'm telling my ISP and the world what my IP is, what
my platform is, and that I use Freedom.

	How, again, is this not tracking me?

		Things to consider.

-- 
"They that give up essential liberty
to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
    - Benjamin Franklin, 1759.

********




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From schear at lvcm.com  Thu Oct 18 15:36:11 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 15:36:11 -0700
Subject: Airlines - the newest members of the international
  community of nations.
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011018153532.03d10e40@pop3.lvcm.com>


At 03:06 PM 10/18/2001 -0700, Black Unicorn wrote:
>From:
>http://cgi.newcity.com/exitlog/frameset.php?close=http://www.citypaper.net/a
>rticles/101801/news.godfrey.shtml&back=http://www.newcity.com
>
>"'When a passenger passes through security, it is under the jurisdiction of
>the airline. We dont get involved,' he says, adding that stories like
>Godfreys are likely to become increasingly common."
>
>Wow, I didn't realize airlines had law enforcement powers and
>"jurisdictions" akin to those of state actors.

They don't, they're just enforcing their property rights ;-)

steve






From Lara at WirelessDeveloper.com  Thu Oct 18 13:38:15 2001
From: Lara at WirelessDeveloper.com (Konny@WirelessDeveloper.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 15:38:15 -0500
Subject: 2nd Qtr 2001 - Report on all Wireless Investments
Message-ID: <1003437495.294@wirelessdeveloper.com>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
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Type: text/html
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URL: 

From declan at well.com  Thu Oct 18 15:48:03 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 15:48:03 -0700
Subject: Stu Baker on CALEA and the Net
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20011018154705.02230140@mail.well.com>


"FBI requires ISPs to permit easy surveillance; EFF founder agrees"
http://www.politechbot.com/p-02671.html

"Stu Baker replies to Politech post on ISPs and EFF founder"
http://www.politechbot.com/p-02672.html




From jal at abulafia.com  Thu Oct 18 15:48:45 2001
From: jal at abulafia.com (Jamie Lawrence)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 15:48:45 -0700
Subject: Your papers please
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011018144843.03cdb8b8@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011018154609.0261b840@10.0.0.2>


Sometime around  02:50 PM 10/18/2001 -0700, Steve Schear opined thusly:


>http://cgi.newcity.com/exitlog/frameset.php?close=http://www.citypaper.net/articles/101801/news.godfrey.shtml&back=http://www.newcity.com


Does anyone know the legal issues surrounding the act of taking
a pocket tape recorder and recording at least my side of  this sort
of transaction?

I know what the likely result would be; I wondered if I had any
obligation not to record anything I might happen to say while
interacting with airport authorities.

-j




From keyser-soze at hushmail.com  Thu Oct 18 15:50:04 2001
From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 15:50:04 -0700
Subject: Stu Baker on CALEA and the Net
Message-ID: <200110182250.f9IMo4T63027@mailserver1.hushmail.com>


>At 03:48 PM 10/18/2001 -0700, Declan McCullagh  wrote:
>>"FBI requires ISPs to permit easy surveillance; EFF founder agrees"
>http://www.politechbot.com/p-02671.html
>
>>"Stu Baker replies to Politech post on ISPs and EFF founder"
>http://www.politechbot.com/p-02672.html
>
>>From: "Baker, Stewart"  To: "'declan at well.com'" , politech at politechbot.com cc: "Albertazzie, Sally"  Subject: RE: FBI requires ISPs to permit easy surveillance; EFF founder ag rees Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 14:52:52 -0400 Declan, I guess I ought to know what Mitch said and didn't say at this event. In fact, I took Mitch's remarks as an olive branch and an invitation to more civil discourse now that we have a keener sense of how much unites rather than divides us. He didn't say he was willing to abandon principle for expediency. He did say that he defines himself as many things, and civil liberties advocate is (just) one of them. He also said he is open to reconsidering his views in the aftermath of September 11. Well, who isn't? Only an ideologue would refuse to reconsider his views in the light of new data (or would accuse those who do of abandoning principles for expediency). But in fact, Mitch held up the civil!
 liberties end of the discussion with dignity and moderation, offering a determined argument against national id cards, for example. Stewart Baker 
>
>Anyone who has given this subject much consideration knows that today's threats are not new and were already incorporated into informed views before September 11.  No new threat has been identified, only fairly well known threats have been acted upon.  No credible reasons for reconsideration of the balance of security vs. civil rights have been presented only propaganda.  It is only the dereliction of our news media and government officials which has made the situation seem new to many citizens.  Too bad military standards of justice aren't applied to all government employees.
>
>steve




From measl at mfn.org  Thu Oct 18 13:56:24 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 15:56:24 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [EMED-L] CDC Update on Anthrax Investigation & Tx Recs (fwd)
Message-ID: 



It is interesting to note that nasal swab appears to be a CDC standard
tool, yet they are recommending *against* this basic diagnostic technique
for John and Jane Doe physician...

 -- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 16:31:49 EDT
From: Rachel Steinhart 
Reply-To: EMED-L -- a list for emergency medicine practitioners.
    
To: EMED-L at ITSSRV1.UCSF.EDU
Subject: [EMED-L] CDC Update on Anthrax Investigation & Tx Recs

October 19, 2001 ASCII text edition of the Morbidity and Mortality
Weekly Report is enclosed. View this week's MMWR as a web page at:
   http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr   and
   http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/PDF/wk/mm5041.pdf

Update: Investigation of Anthrax Associated with Intentional Exposure and
Interim Public Health Guidelines, October 2001
     On October 4, 2001, CDC and state and local public health authorities
reported a case of inhalational anthrax in Florida (1). Additional cases of
anthrax subsequently have been reported from Florida and New York City. This
report updates the findings of these case investigations, which indicate
that infections were caused by the intentional release of Bacillus
anthracis. This report also includes interim guidelines for postexposure
prophylaxis for prevention of inhalational anthraxand other information to
assist epidemiologists, clinicians, and laboratorians responding to
intentional anthrax exposures.
     For these investigations, a confirmed case of anthrax was defined as 1)
a clinically compatible case of cutaneous, inhalational, or gastrointestinal
illness* that is laboratory confirmed by isolation of B. anthracis from an
affected tissue or site or 2) other laboratory evidence of B. anthracis
infection based on at least two supportive laboratory tests. A suspected
case was defined as 1) a clinically compatible case of illness without
isolation of B. anthracis and no alternative diagnosis, but with laboratory
evidence of B. anthracis by one supportive laboratory test or 2) a
clinically compatible case of anthrax epidemiologically linked to a
confirmed environmental exposure, but without corroborative laboratory
evidence of B. anthracis infection.
     Laboratory criteria for diagnosis of anthrax consist of 1) isolation
and confirmation of B. anthracis from a clinical specimen collected from an
affected tissue or site or 2) other supportive laboratory tests, including
(a) evidence of B. anthracis DNA by polymerase chain reaction (PCR) from
specimens collected from an affected tissue or site, (b) demonstration of B.
anthracis in a clinical specimen by immunohistochemical staining, or (c)
other laboratory tests (e.g., serology) that may become validated by
laboratory confirmation.
Florida
     On October 2, the Palm Beach County Health Department (PBCHD) and the
Florida Department of Health (FDOH) were notified of a possible anthrax case
in Palm Beach County. The suspected case was identified when a gram stain of
cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) revealed a gram-positive bacilli. An epidemiologic
investigation was initiated by FDOH, PBCHD, and the FDOH state laboratory.
The state laboratory and CDC confirmed B. anthracis from a culture of CSF on
October 4. Later the same day, FDOH and CDC epidemiologists and laboratory
workers arrived in Palm Beach County to assist PBCHD with the investigation.
As of October 16, two confirmed cases of inhalational anthrax have been
identified.
     The index patient was a 63-year-old male resident of Palm Beach County
who sought medical care at a local hospital on October 2 with fever and
altered mental status. Despite antibiotic therapy, his clinical condition
deteriorated rapidly, and he died on October 5. An autopsy performed on
October 6 confirmed the cause of death as inhalational anthrax. An
investigation revealed no obvious exposures to B. anthracis.
     On October 1, the second patient, a 73-year-old co-worker of the index
patient, was admitted to a local hospital for pneumonia. On October 5, a
nasal swab was obtained from the patient that yielded a positive culture for
B. anthracis. Subsequent testing revealed positive PCR tests for B.
anthracis in hemorrhagic pleural fluid and reactive serologic tests. The
patient remains hospitalized on antibiotic therapy. Enhanced case finding
and retrospective and prospective surveillance systems were initiated in
Palm Beach, and surrounding counties. Environmental assessments and sampling
were performed at the index patient's home, work site, and travel
destinations for the 60 days preceding symptom onset. Environmental sampling
revealed B. anthracis contamination of the work site, specifically
implicating mail or package delivery. Environmental samples of other
locations the patient visited, including extensive sampling of his home,
were negative.
     Questionnaires were administered to employees at the index patient's
work site. Postexposure prophylaxis was administered, and nasal swabs were
obtained from those with exposure to the work site for >1 hour since August
1. Of 1,075 nasal swabs performed, one was positive for B. anthracis.
Environmental and co-worker testing indicated contamination of specific
locations at the work site. The investigation and environmental sampling are
ongoing.
New York
     On October 9, the New York City Department of Health notified CDC of a
person with a skin lesion consistent with cutaneous anthrax. CDC sent a team
to New York City to provide epidemiologic and laboratory support to local
health officials. As of October 16, two persons with confirmed cases of
cutaneous anthrax have been identified. One person with confirmed anthrax
was a 38-year-old woman who had handled a suspicious letter postmarked
September 18 at her workplace. The letter contained a powder that
subsequently was confirmed to contain B. anthracis. On September 25, the
patient had a raised lesion on the chest, which over the next 3 days
developed surrounding erythema and edema. By September 29, the patient
developed malaise and headache. On October 1, a clinician examined the
patient and described an approximately 5 cm long oval-shaped lesion with a
raised border, small satellite vesicles, and profound edema. The lesion was
nonpainful and was associated with left cervical lymphadenopathy. Serous
fluid from the lesion was obtained and was negative by gram stain and
culture. The patient was prescribed oral ciprofloxacin. Over the next
several days, the lesion developed a black eschar, and a biopsy was obtained
and sent to CDC for testing. The tissue was positive by immunohistochemical
staining for the cell wall antigen of B. anthracis.
     The other person with confirmed cutaneous anthrax was a 7-month-old
infant who visited his mother's workplace on September 28. The next day, the
infant had an apparently nontender, massively edematous, weeping skin lesion
on his left arm; he was treated with intravenous antibiotics. Over the next
several days, the lesion became ulcerative and developed a black eschar;
clinicians presumptively attributed the lesion to a spider bite. The
infant's clinical course was complicated by hemolytic anemia and
thrombocytopenia, requiring intensive care. The diagnosis of cutaneous
anthrax was first considered on October 12 after the announcement of the
other confirmed anthrax case in New York City. A serum specimen collected on
October 2 was positive for B. anthracis by PCR testing at CDC; a skin biopsy
obtained on October 13 was positive by immunohistochemical staining at CDC
for the cell wall antigen of B. anthracis. No suspicious letter with powder
was identified at the mother's workplace. Both patients were treated with
ciprofloxacin and are clinically improving.
     B. anthracis grew from swabs (two nasal and one facial skin swab) from
three other persons, suggesting exposure to anthrax. One of the exposures
was in a law enforcement officer who brought the letter containing B.
anthracis from the index patient's workplace to the receiving laboratory.
The other two exposures were in technicians who had processed the letter in
the laboratory. Environmental sampling in both workplaces is ongoing and
investigations of other exposed persons continue.
Reported by: L Bush, MD, Atlantis; J Malecki, MD, Palm Beach County Health
Dept, Palm Beach; S Wiersma, MD, State Epidemiologist, Florida Dept of
Health. K Cahill, MD, R Fried, MD; M Grossman, MD, Columbia Presbyterian
Medical Center; W Borkowsky, MD, New York Univ Medical Center, New York, New
York; New York City Dept of Health. National Center for Infectious Diseases;
and EIS officers, CDC.
Editorial Note: The findings in this report indicate that four confirmed
cases of anthrax have resulted from intentional delivery of B. anthracis
spores through mailed letters or packages. These are the first confirmed
cases of anthrax associated with intentional exposure in the United States
and represent a new public health threat.
     Anthrax is an acute infectious disease caused by the sporeforming
bacterium B. anthracis. It occurs most frequently as an epizootic or
enzootic disease of herbivores (e.g., cattle, goats, or sheep) that acquire
spores from direct contact with contaminated soil. Humans usually become
infected through direct contact with B. anthracis spores from infected
animals or their products (e.g., goat hair), resulting in cutaneous anthrax
(2) (Box 1). Inhalational and gastrointestinal are other forms of the
disease in the natural setting (4,5). Humantohuman transmission has not been
documented.
     Clinical laboratorians should be alert to the presence of Bacillus
species in patient specimens. In particular, laboratorians should suspect B.
anthracis when the specimen is from a previously healthy patient with a
rapidly progressive respiratory illness or a cutaneous ulcer. If B.
anthracis is suspected, laboratories should immediately notify the
health-care provider and local and state public health staff. For rapid
identification of B. anthracis, state and local health departments should
access the Laboratory Response Network for Bioterrorism (LRN). LRN links
state and local public health laboratories with advanced capacity
laboratories---including clinical, military, veterinary, agricultural,
water, and food-testing laboratories. Laboratorians should contact their
state public health laboratory to identify their local LRN representative.
     Postexposure prophylaxis is indicated to prevent inhalational anthrax
after a confirmed or suspected aerosol exposure. When no information is
available about the antimicrobial susceptibility of the implicated strain of
B. anthracis, initial therapy with ciprofloxacin or doxycycline is
recommended for adults and children (Table 1). Use of tetracyclines and
fluoroquinolones in children has adverse effects. The risks for these
adverse effects must be weighed carefully against the risk for developing
life-threatening disease. As soon as penicillin susceptibility of the
organism has been confirmed, prophylactic therapy for children should be
changed to oral amoxicillin 80 mg/kg of body mass per day divided every 8
hours (not to exceed 500 mg three times daily). B. anthracis is not
susceptible to cephalosporins or to trimethoprim/sulfamethoxazole, and these
agents should not be used for prophylaxis.
     CDC is assisting other states and local areas in assessing anthrax
exposures. Additional information about anthrax and the public health
response is available at . This information was
current as of 4 p.m., eastern daylight time, October 17, 2001.
References
1. CDC. Ongoing investigation of anthrax---Florida, October 2001. MMWR
2001;50:877.
2. CDC. Human anthrax associated with an epizootic among livestock---North
Dakota, 2000. MMWR 2001;50:677--80.
3. Ashford DA, Rotz LD, Perkins BA. Use of anthrax vaccine in the United
States: recommendations of the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practice
(ACIP). MMWR 2000;49(no. RR-15).
4. Brachman PS. Inhalational anthrax. Ann NY Acad Sci 1980;353:83--93.
5. Brachman PS, Kaufmann A. Anthrax. In: Evans AS, Brachman PS, eds.
Bacterial infections of humans. New York, New York: Plenum Medical Book
Company, 1998.
*Cutaneous illness is characterized by a skin lesion evolving from a papule,
through a vesicular stage, to a depressed black eschar; edema, erythema, or
necrosis without ulceration may be present. Inhalational illness is
characterized by a brief prodrome resembling a "nonspecific febrile" illness
that rapidly progresses to a fulminant illness with signs of sepsis and/or
respiratory failure, often with radiographic evidence of mediastinal
widening; signs of bacterial meningitis may be present. Gastrointestinal
illness is characterized by severe abdominal pain usually accompanied by
bloody vomiting or diarrhea followed by fever and signs of septicemia.

BOX 1. Clinical forms of anthrax
     Clinical Forms of Anthrax
     The following clinical descriptions of anthrax are based on experience
in adults. The clinical presentation of anthrax in infants is not well
defined.
     Inhalational. Inhalational anthrax begins with a brief prodrome
resembling a viral respiratory illness followed by development of hypoxia
and dyspnea, with radiographic evidence of mediastinal widening.
Inhalational anthrax is the most lethal form of anthrax and results from
inspiration of 8,000--50,000 spores of Bacillus anthracis (3). The
incubation period of inhalational anthrax among humans typically ranges from
1--7 days but may be possibly up to 60 days. Host factors, dose of exposure,
and chemoprophylaxis may affect the duration of the incubation period.
Initial symptoms include mild fever, muscle aches, and malaise and may
progress to respiratory failure and shock; meningitis frequently develops.
Case-fatality estimates for inhalational anthrax are extremely high, even
with all possible supportive care including appropriate antibiotics.
     Cutaneous. Cutaneous anthrax is characterized by a skin lesion evolving
from a papule, through a vesicular stage, to a depressed black eschar. The
incubation period ranges from 1--12 days. The lesion is usually painless,
but patients also may have fever, malaise, headache, and regional
lymphadenopathy. The case fatality rate for cutaneous anthrax is 20%
without, and <1% with, antibiotic treatment.
     Gastrointestinal. Gastrointestinal anthrax is characterized by severe
abdominal pain followed by fever and signs of septicemia. This form of
anthrax usually follows after eating raw or undercooked contaminated meat
and can have an incubation period of 1--7 days. An oropharyngeal and an
abdominal form of the disease have been described. Involvement of the
pharynx is usually characterized by lesions at the base of the tongue,
dysphagia, fever, and regional lymphadenopathy. Lower bowel inflammation
typically causes nausea, loss of appetite, and fever followed by abdominal
pain, hematemesis, and bloody diarrhea. The case-fatality rate is estimated
to be 25%--60%. The effect of early antibiotic treatment on the
case-fatality rate is not established.






From mmotyka at lsil.com  Thu Oct 18 16:34:31 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 16:34:31 -0700
Subject: MWandawi art
Message-ID: <3BCF6706.24ABEEF6@lsil.com>


I fooled around with the filtering but the source data is pure crap.
It's a low quality JPEG and there are artifacts everywhere, especially
around the "towers" and the rider. Has anyone found better source
material : higher resolution, lower quantization?

BTW - there's lots more art, mostly sinister if you care to see it that
way. Look at the one in gallery 4 :

WTF is a wooden shoe ( sabot ) doing next to an Indian elephant? 

Also in pic 0110 there is a nice death's head in the clouds to the left
of the flying cherub thing..

I have some trouble with the interpretation of yellow as a biowar, since
it seems to be something he horse is wanting to graze on.

http://people.a2000.nl/mwandawi/




From guest at guest.com  Thu Oct 18 01:54:27 2001
From: guest at guest.com (guest)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 16:54:27 +0800
Subject: =?GB2312?B?0/LD+8/I16Ky4brzuL2/7qOs1ve7+s/Iv6rNqLrzytW30Q==?=
Message-ID: <200210180854.g9I8sKQ29078@waste.minder.net>


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From oa at acm.org  Thu Oct 18 17:05:25 2001
From: oa at acm.org (Optimizzin Al-gorithm)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 17:05:25 -0700
Subject: Books being banned on planes...
Message-ID: <3BCF6E45.D121488F@acm.org>


At 03:09 PM 10/18/01 -0700, j eric townsend wrote:
>How to get detained and miss your flight.
>Bring the wrong book with you:
>
>http://www.citypaper.net/articles/101801/news.godfrey.shtml

>Plus, Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) regulations
>stipulate that any passenger who jokes about explosives be arrested on
the spot. By
>contrast, Godfrey was never charged or even accused of breaking the
law. I

But the security personnel joke all they want.

I flew out of San Jose after they gotten national guardsmen.

Going through security, a security dude looks at my bottle of water,
opens it, sniffs it, and acts like he's just whiffed sarin.  Then
he smiles and puts it back in my bag.  I'm thinking, what an asshole,
if I did that I'd be screwed.  And I'm lucky no nervous guardsman
saw his stunt from across the room and didn't see the laugh
while he was slinging his M-16 around..

Wonder what they'll think if I bring my copy of _Demolition: the art of
demolishing
dismantling imploding toppling & razing_ by H. Liss & the Loizeauxs.
The cover
is a four-picture series of a hotel falling, less cleanly than the WTC
actually.  (But
it looks like it was brick.)

Or maybe _Why buildings fall down_ which has a B-25 bomber flying
into a skyscraper (ca. 1945).  Don't need Hollywood for that idea.




From oa at acm.org  Thu Oct 18 17:20:19 2001
From: oa at acm.org (Optimizzin Al-gorithm)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 17:20:19 -0700
Subject: Do SpecOps set aside a pair of clean underwear for Somalias?
Message-ID: <3BCF71C3.4723124B@db.com>


>`America will only be certain about its mistaken calculations after its
soldiers are dragged in Afghanistan
>as they were in Somalia,''
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/nm/20011018/ts/attack_qaeda_usa_dc_1.html

One bomb got USG out of Lebanon.

A few stingers and some underwear on CNN got USG out of Somalia.

Bombs didn't work for crusaders in Arabian barracks or warship.
Wouldn't
think oil is so addictive, but it is.  People will die to get it.

Maybe Osama's brother will recognize his writing and turn him into the
FBI.




From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Thu Oct 18 15:22:05 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 17:22:05 -0500
Subject: Your papers please
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011018144843.03cdb8b8@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: <3BCF55D7.A7AE964F@cybershamanix.com>


     I sincerely hope this guy sues these people. Are the Guard troops protected from lawsuits? People this stupid shouldn't be allowed out
without a keeper, let alone be running around with guns.

Steve Schear wrote:

> Everyone knows it is a bad idea to try and board a plane carrying a box
> cutter, a flight manual written in Arabic, or a sack full of mysterious
> white powder. But with ultra-tightened airport security, a book could also
> prevent you from boarding that plane.
>
> No kidding. It happened just last week in Philadelphia.
>
> http://cgi.newcity.com/exitlog/frameset.php?close=http://www.citypaper.net/articles/101801/news.godfrey.shtml&back=http://www.newcity.com
>
> steve

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver at cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html




From tbr at tbr.com  Thu Oct 18 17:23:11 2001
From: tbr at tbr.com (Tabla bin Rasa)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 17:23:11 -0700
Subject: don't write "fags" on military bombs, its not polite
Message-ID: <3BCF726F.7C4772F0@tbr.com>


Anti-Gay Bomb Slur Wrong, Navy Says

WASHINGTON (AP) - An anti-gay slur written on one of the bombs used in
the strikes on Afghanistan was inappropriate
and commanders have been directed to prevent similar incidents, a top
Navy official said.

Pilots or crews of U.S. warplanes often write messages on bombs, either
taunting the enemy or praising America. Messages
written on bombs during the anti-terrorism airstrikes have included
several references to the Sept. 11 attacks.

A news photograph of a plane on the USS Enterprise aircraft carrier last
week showed one bomb with the message, ``High
Jack This,'' followed by an anti-gay slur.

The Human Rights Campaign, a gay rights group, complained about the
bomb's message. Rear Adm. Stephen Pietropaoli, in a
letter to the group Wednesday, said the Navy does not tolerate
discrimination and the bomb's message was an ``isolated
incident.''

Several newspapers across the country also asked the Navy about the
bomb's message earlier this week, said Pietropaoli, the
Navy's chief of information.

``We immediately notified Navy commanders involved with Operation
Enduring Freedom to ensure steps were taken to
prevent a recurrence of this unfortunate incident. They have done so,''
Pietropaoli wrote.

Elizabeth Birch, executive director of Human Rights Campaign, said in a
statement that the letter was ``a welcome clarification
and we are pleased the Navy has stated that this type of anti-gay
behavior has no place in our armed forces.''




From mikecabot at fastcircle.com  Thu Oct 18 14:32:37 2001
From: mikecabot at fastcircle.com (mikecabot at fastcircle.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 17:32:37 -0400
Subject: Stu Baker on CALEA and the Net
Message-ID: <200110182131.f9ILVIf08401@slack.lne.com>


I've searched for other references to this and haven't found any... I 
work at a very large ISP and because of my job function, I would need 
to (a) know about such an order; (b) supervise its implementation; 
and (c) actively monitor compliance with it.

And I can tell you that we've received no such order or even had a 
sniff that one was coming down (and yes, we do get served by various 
LEAs to disclose account details and account contents -- but they 
have always been specific court orders in the past; and no, no one 
has shown up with a Carnivore box under the arm asking us if they 
could plug it into the nearest router port).

In addition to the blanket statement that Baker makes, there's also 
the suspicion that he doesn't really understand the subject.... what 
does he mean by "CALEA compliance"? Does he mean archiving packet 
data (if so, the notion is ludicrous)? Does he mean archiving just 
email POP3 contents? Does he mean archiving web/ftp space? What about 
colo boxes?

CALEA as it applies to voice networks (packet switched or not -- most 
voice networks are packet switched already, just not necessarily IP 
packets) is really an expression of two specific things: a) 
transaction logging detail (Acme calls Beta on a specific date and 
time and for a specific duration) and b) the ability to easily and 
quickly get copies of the packet stream (the voice conversations and 
any data associated with them or in them) to a centralized 
distribution at which such data is made available to the LEAs. But 
this is a different thing entirely from data IP packet networks.

So is this guy (Stu Baker) just blowing smoke?

Mike

> Original Message from Thu, 18 Oct 2001 15:48:03 -0700:> 
> "FBI requires ISPs to permit easy surveillance; EFF founder agrees"
> http://www.politechbot.com/p-02671.html
> 
> "Stu Baker replies to Politech post on ISPs and EFF founder"
> http://www.politechbot.com/p-02672.html
> 
> 
> 
> 

_______________________________________________________________________________
WANT YOUR OWN FREE AND SECURE WEB EMAIL ADDRESS?

Visit http://www.fastcircle.com 




From declan at well.com  Thu Oct 18 14:34:50 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 17:34:50 -0400
Subject: Expert Warns Coded Pictures Indicate Al Qaeda Planning
  Major Biological Attack
In-Reply-To: <20011018210815.4302.qmail@sidereal.kz>; from
  drevil@sidereal.kz on Thu, Oct 18, 2001 at 09:08:15PM -0000
References: <200110181940.f9IJeL013812@mailserver1.hushmail.com>
  <20011018210815.4302.qmail@sidereal.kz>
Message-ID: <20011018173450.A7846@cluebot.com>


May be a hoax. Most former NSAers don't advertise the fact. And
the "Bert-and-bin-Laden" image as a seekret coded message? Hardly.

-Declan


On Thu, Oct 18, 2001 at 09:08:15PM -0000, Dr. Evil wrote:
> Fascinating website.  This may sound disturbing, but I must say, this
> terrorist was a pretty good painter if these really are his paintings.
> Mr. Koontz made some good points about the biological attack, but his
> thesis is predicated on the idea of yellow meaning sickness, and I'm
> not sure if it all ties together.  For instance, one of the paintings
> clearly shows an Arabian horse struggling uphill into a field of
> yellow.  Yellow in this case looks like peace or salvation.  He also
> didn't pick up the image of a horse running up the rock being a
> reference to how Mohamed went to heaven, so there may be some other
> interpretations of these images.
> 
> I hope none of these plots will come to pass.




From declan at well.com  Thu Oct 18 17:37:47 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 17:37:47 -0700
Subject: Stu Baker on CALEA and the Net
In-Reply-To: <200110182131.OAA02389@smtp.well.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20011018173653.0222dec0@mail.well.com>


I haven't read the CALEA text in a long time, but I think the answer may be 
yes and no. Stu is a very smart guy, one of the experts on this section of 
the law, but he could conceivably be overstating the case for his own purposes.

-Declan

At 05:32 PM 10/18/01 -0400, mikecabot at fastcircle.com wrote:

>So is this guy (Stu Baker) just blowing smoke?




From gbroiles at well.com  Thu Oct 18 17:43:22 2001
From: gbroiles at well.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 17:43:22 -0700
Subject: Stu Baker on CALEA and the Net
In-Reply-To: <20011019001238.19F0325A11@suburbia.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011018144500.036871c0@bivens.parrhesia.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011018171714.036c5a40@bivens.parrhesia.com>


At 10:12 AM 10/19/2001 +1000, Julian Assange wrote:
> > He's a gun-for-hire, not a doctrinaire blinders-on true believer for 
> either
> > the surveillance enthusiasts or privacy freaks.
>
>Oh, come off it.
>
>Stu is a well known NSA zealot.

Have you actually spoken with him, or are you just working from press reports?

Lots of things are "well known" and wrong, too.

>  The only reason there's a bridge
>between Kapor and Baker is due to the cavernous ravine that lays
>between them. Kapor is now apparently half-way across, following
>Stu's silently bekoning finger, fearfully running from the sounds
>of angels wings; fooled into believing that they lie behind and
>not ahead of him.

I don't know what Kapor has been smoking, but getting focused on Stewart 
Baker as the enemy is a distraction. He's articulate, and sympathetic to 
law enforcement/intelligence arguments in favor of surveillance and against 
privacy, but I'd sure rather hear him make those arguments in public than 
have him make them in private where the rest of us can't respond or prepare 
for what's coming.

Maybe Kapor just now noticed that lives really are at stake - crypto and 
security aren't just about spying on porn downloads and credit cards. His 
reaction is typical of leftist privacy activists the first time they need 
to really grapple with violence and its implications - they want to get as 
far from it as possible, and defer to the right-wing "experts" they 
previously opposed.

If the FBI really is preparing for a domestic surveillance initiative, 
hearing about that months in advance is a lot more helpful than yet another 
incompatible peer-to-peer content distribution system.


--
Greg Broiles
gbroiles at well.com
"We have found and closed the thing you watch us with." -- New Delhi street kids




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Thu Oct 18 17:52:51 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 17:52:51 -0700
Subject: "Expert" fooled by Bert Stego
In-Reply-To: <3BCF3FD3.458A94E0@acm.org>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011018173220.035ca480@idiom.com>


At 01:47 PM 10/18/2001 -0700, Optimizzin Al-gorithm wrote:
> >The Sesame Street character that has appeared in a huge poster with
> >Osama bin Laden is significant in that it is yellow and has a mask-like 
> quality.
> >And one can be certain that it was not placed on that huge poster by 
> accident,
> > as some people have stupidly suggested. It is a signal.
>
>Bert Stego?  Occam's razor, dude.

You're missing the fundamentals of conspiracy here -
the secret steganographically-hidden message in the Osama & Bert poster
*is* the picture of Bert :-)

But what does it *mean*?  Is it just to distract you from the fnords?
Osama doesn't use Occam's razor, after all.
Is it the basic principle that the reason you don't understand why
they've hidden Bert's picture in the picture of Bert
is that *that just shows how clever they are*?

Or is it something more subtle, more dangerous,
a denial of service attack cleverly designed to keep the experts
distracted by analyzing this South-West-Asian version of a koan,
looking beyond the picture of one puppet clapping to find the
invisible hand hidden inside, trying to see the fingerprints through
the cloth instead of looking around them at what's really happening
behind their backs.

Wheels within wheels, man.

By the way, there was iocaine powder in both glasses.




From tolan at citipages.net  Thu Oct 18 10:13:32 2001
From: tolan at citipages.net (Tolan Blundell)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 18:13:32 +0100
Subject: Kill Killfile
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


Sandy wrote:

>Perhaps MY use of irony is too subtle for someone raised on Monty Python to
>detect and appreciate.  Perhaps this will help:

>When it comes to florid writing, that John Young is a real goer, hey?
(Wink
>wink, nudge nudge, say no more, say no more.)  :'D

yes, because obviously the only humour anyone from the UK has ever been
exposed to is Monty Python and Carry On... Please don't force me to bring up
Seinfeld...

Tolan.




From dov at zeroknowledge.com  Thu Oct 18 15:17:31 2001
From: dov at zeroknowledge.com (Dov Smith)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 18:17:31 -0400
Subject: Reply from Zero-Knowledge
Message-ID: 

Hey Declan,

I want to start by saying that Zero-Knowledge absolutely does not track or
profile the users of its Freedom Privacy & Security Tools 3.0 software.

Our software loads updates (e.g. Ad Manager files and e-wallet scripts) as
well as privacy-related content via HTTP. This was the case with previous
versions of the software and is still true today, although today it may
appear more prominent since we have designed Freedom 3.0 with a new user
interface and are carrying more privacy content.

This HTTP activity is covered by our privacy policies.

As for cookies, Zero-Knowledge has always used cookies on its websites, for
the purposes of store-, affiliate- and state-management. These practices are
also reflected in our privacy policies.

Declan, if you still think this is worth forwarding on, I'd appreciate your
at least changing the subject header you sent me. The implication that
delivering web content means tracking users, is mistaken.

Best regards,

Dov

__________________________________________

  Dov Smith
  PR Director, Zero-Knowledge Systems
  514.350.7553 / dov at zeroknowledge.com

  Join us at Privacy By Design 2001
  Dec. 3-5, 2001 in Montreal
  www.zeroknowledge.com/privacybydesign2001
__________________________________________

********


From anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org  Thu Oct 18 17:06:00 2001
From: anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org (Incognito Innominatus)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 19:06:00 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: StreetMail (triangulate this)
Message-ID: <60a78341b49458865c6bb9ae3b1d091d@mixmaster.nullify.org>


In the view of imminent remailer takeover/shutdown, here is a scheme that can piggyback on any entry/exit point and provide rather decent anonymity. Until I do exhaustive trademark research, let's call it StreetMail.

It has nothing to do with crypto. It just exploits anonymity that (still) exists for people using public streets.

Background: cheap residential 802.11b access points have significant outdoor range and cost around $200 (orinoco rg-1100; proxym skyline; apple airport ($300)). Orinoco seems to be the best choice because it provides ready ability to attach antenna.

All these can be configured to allow access to anyone. Also, it can be specified which kind of traffic is allowed (say, only port 8000).

By directing these access points to use in-house http proxy (like squid) that is configured to allow ONLY access to remailers and throwaway accounts (hotmail, yahoo,etc) all other use of public access is effectively prevented.

If antenna is placed close to the window the range should be around 100-200 meters in the open. An interested party could drive in the range and pickup/send e-mail at will.

Unlike with traditional remailers, where one must trust the operator, here the terrorist user controls anonymity herself. Who has seen you ? If you just walk by with a laptop who can ID you ? (use the radio card that has programmable MAC, like Orinoco gold.)

Best of all, the operator is automagically exonerated, since she has no way of knowing who is connecting to the WLAN. Until operating WLANs becomes a crime, that is.

The disadvantages are obvious - today's few active remailers are reachable from anywhere on the net. The proposed solution requires access point, server and always-on link (like DSL) and there should be one location per, say, half million inhabitants. The only difference between StreetMail this and those that chose to offer their DSL to the public (http://www.seattlewireless.net) is that StreetMail is far more restrictive, so you don't have to worry about your freaky neighbour serving gigs of Illegal Bits.

Now, the above can be set up in about half hour. Further enhancements require access to AP development toolkits (or playing with unix drivers for radio cards instead):

- limiting a single remote MAC to preset time and volume (like once every 6 hrs and no more than 100 kb per session (this also creates liability because logs will exist)

- using internal remailer with random delay, so she can escape

- bouncing traffic via radio links with nearby nodes.

etc.




From citizenQ at ziplip.com  Thu Oct 18 19:31:44 2001
From: citizenQ at ziplip.com (citizenQ)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 19:31:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: StreetMail (triangulate this)
Message-ID: <13JNQHQH4TUHWUH5RKTYUFUFNKGSWXCWBK3KWXHZ@ziplip.com>


I wouldn't make the assumption that there is sufficient public street anonymity.  This scheme would fall easily to simple surveillance attacks.  Or LEA putting a second receiver in the vicinity.

>It has nothing to do with crypto. It just exploits anonymity that (still) exists for people using public streets.




From measl at mfn.org  Thu Oct 18 17:32:57 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 19:32:57 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: FBI anthrax posters.
Message-ID: 



Anyone else find their work environment covered with the new FBI
"posters" (8 1/2 x 11 color) on how to recognize mail which may be from
terrorists, and/or contain anthrax?

My wife has not yet seen one at her work (she works retail), so I'm
wondering if these have only been distributed to certain kinds of
[high-tech?] businesses???

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From info at giganetstore.com  Thu Oct 18 11:39:37 2001
From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 19:39:37 +0100
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Outono_com_Leil=F5es_da_Banana!?=
Message-ID: <08b8437391812a1WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com>




 


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From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Oct 18 02:42:46 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 19:42:46 +1000
Subject: Assasinating larry
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011018193707.00a20610@pop.useoz.com>


www.indymedia.org  today proffr1 is clearly the victorian police...  Larry 
Ellison Will Die (english)
by Reg 10:59pm Wed Oct 17 '01



I have an idea that I don't have the resources to put into place. Feel free 
to pick it up if you do.

It is a website called www.lewd.org Larry Ellison Will Die.

It is a dead pool website where people can place bets on when Larry Ellison 
will die. This not advocating his death. It is not threatening him. It is 
not Larry Ellison Must Die. After all, we all will die and so will Larry 
Ellison.

So why don't we track his movements and wait for him to die. It could be a 
heart attack on the golf course. Maybe he gets swept away to sea on a 
yacht. Perhaps a CIA or FBI agent sees an opportunity to cash in and has 
him offed.

Feel free to take it and run with it. Copyleft.


Hasnt silly con valley been 'dusted'yet? (english)
by proffr1 at etc 11:03pm Wed Oct 17 '01



Operation softdrill has nominated larry and scott mc mealy mouthed for 
infinite justice.Evil is patient.

Pork futures dictate that this message may not be kosher.
The threat to your liberties is verifiable.
the threat is real.




From measl at mfn.org  Thu Oct 18 17:59:17 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 19:59:17 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Your papers please
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011018154609.0261b840@10.0.0.2>
Message-ID: 




On Thu, 18 Oct 2001, Jamie Lawrence wrote:

> Does anyone know the legal issues surrounding the act of taking
> a pocket tape recorder and recording at least my side of  this sort
> of transaction?

There's actually two questions implied here:

	(1) What are the _legal_ implications?  The answer will depend on
whe the event(s) take place;

	(2) Realistically, what can you expect?

I can't address number 1 directly, but I can address number two from first
hand experience.

In 1983 I was questioned by a (New York) police officer, who interrupted
my quite open and obvious dictation into a hand held microcassette
recorder to do it.  Since he saw the thing in my hand, and did not ask me
to turn it off, I let it run during what was essentially a "Terry Stop".

When the Terry stop escalated, and I was ordered to follow the officer for
more questioning, I asked him, while holding out the recorder for the
answer, whether I was under arrest.  Answer: no.  Followed by "Am I free
to go?".  Answer no.  "Sir, I believe these two conditions are mutually
exclusive: either I am under arrest, or I am free to go.  As I have things
to do, I need to know which it is, so that I may either go do them, or
call my attorney to join us".

My reward was a crushed microcassette recorder, a "missing" cassette (he
claimed the recorder was both damaged and empty at the time he first
encountered it), and an arrest (and conviction no less!).

On the way to central booking, he helped himself to my pocket change to
pay for the coffee and doughnuts for him and his three buddies (they
actually stopped en-route, leaving me cuffed in the car alone for about
20 minutes).

So, in a nutshell, expect that the recorder will be "empty", and quite
damaged when/if it is ever returned to you (which mine wasn't, even after
multiple applications).

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From tcmay at got.net  Thu Oct 18 20:13:46 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 20:13:46 -0700
Subject: Airlines - the newest members of the international
  community of nations.
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <4F00472E-C43F-11D5-8249-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Thursday, October 18, 2001, at 03:06 PM, Black Unicorn wrote:

> From:
> http://cgi.newcity.com/exitlog/frameset.php?close=http://www.citypaper.net/
> a
> rticles/101801/news.godfrey.shtml&back=http://www.newcity.com
>
> "'When a passenger passes through security, it is under the 
> jurisdiction of
> the airline. We dont get involved,' he says, adding that stories like
> Godfreys are likely to become increasingly common."
>
> Wow, I didn't realize airlines had law enforcement powers and
> "jurisdictions" akin to those of state actors.


A chilling story. It reports "patting down," interviews with the 
National Guard, police involvement, and multiple hours' worth of 
harassment...all for having a novel in his luggage.

Fuck Amerika...it is time for the empire to fall.

It talks a good game, but implements police state measures.



-Tim May
"The State is the great fiction by which everyone seeks to live at the 
expense of everyone else." --Frederic Bastiat




From blancw at cnw.com  Thu Oct 18 20:20:30 2001
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 20:20:30 -0700
Subject: Your papers please
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011018144843.03cdb8b8@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: 


About that book:

:Everyone knows it is a bad idea to try and board a plane carrying a box
:cutter, a flight manual written in Arabic, or a sack full of mysterious
:white powder. But with ultra-tightened airport security, a book could also
:prevent you from boarding that plane.
---------------


With enough examples like these collected in your Noggin database, you
develop the ability to measure degrees of intelligence, even without any
mechanical high-tech gear or scientifically conducted testing.

Very useful, especially for self-defense & preservation, especially in Times
Like These with people like those.

  ..
Blanc




From xeni at xeni.net  Thu Oct 18 20:57:47 2001
From: xeni at xeni.net (Xeni Jardin)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 20:57:47 -0700
Subject: FBI anthrax posters.
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


> Anyone else find their work environment covered with the new FBI
> "posters" (8 1/2 x 11 color) on how to recognize mail which may be from
> terrorists, and/or contain anthrax?

I'm not aware of an FBI-issued poster, but the USPS is distributing one widely
that fits this description.

Download copies in pdf


Or jpg:


--XJ




From d18544 at miesto.sk  Thu Oct 18 19:08:15 2001
From: d18544 at miesto.sk (d18544 at miesto.sk)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 21:08:15 -0500
Subject: Boost Your Windows Reliability!!!!!!!!
Message-ID: <000004c07836$00002794$00000e0a@slomusic.net>

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From drevil at sidereal.kz  Thu Oct 18 14:08:15 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil)
Date: 18 Oct 2001 21:08:15 -0000
Subject: Expert Warns Coded Pictures Indicate Al Qaeda Planning
  Major Biological Attack
In-Reply-To: <200110181940.f9IJeL013812@mailserver1.hushmail.com>
  (auto301094@hushmail.com)
References: <200110181940.f9IJeL013812@mailserver1.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: <20011018210815.4302.qmail@sidereal.kz>


Fascinating website.  This may sound disturbing, but I must say, this
terrorist was a pretty good painter if these really are his paintings.
Mr. Koontz made some good points about the biological attack, but his
thesis is predicated on the idea of yellow meaning sickness, and I'm
not sure if it all ties together.  For instance, one of the paintings
clearly shows an Arabian horse struggling uphill into a field of
yellow.  Yellow in this case looks like peace or salvation.  He also
didn't pick up the image of a horse running up the rock being a
reference to how Mohamed went to heaven, so there may be some other
interpretations of these images.

I hope none of these plots will come to pass.




From noreply at cypherpunks.to  Thu Oct 18 12:22:04 2001
From: noreply at cypherpunks.to (Anonymous via the Cypherpunks Tonga Remailer)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 21:22:04 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Israel pledges War On Terrorism after cabinet hawk's
  assassination
Message-ID: <482dcfdbf22ce40b470e92392800180f@cypherpunks.to>


[..]
"We'll catch those 'folks' that did this", pledged President Sharon in 
direct reference to President Bush's words of just over a month ago.

Israel has access to some of the world's most advanced weaponry, and 
may use this against the terrorists. From jet fighters and helicopters 
for attacking the infrastructure of the nation harboring the 
terrorists, to sending in troops on the ground.

[..]
Do non-governmental actions constitute acts of war? In the case of 
terrorism, we have already reached that answer: Challenge a nation 
state in any way, and you run a major risk. Nation states, like Israel, 
have capabilities that are almost impossible to comprehend. They have 
people in uniform who do nothing but practice the fine art of visiting 
death on their fellow man. They have the ability to deliver fearsome 
tools of that art. Everything from drilling a bullet into one 
particular man's chest from a thousand yards away to putting a two-
thousand-pound smart bomb right through somebody's bedroom wind
[sunspot interference] 




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Thu Oct 18 18:35:54 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 21:35:54 -0400
Subject: don't write "fags" on military bombs, its not polite
References: <3BCF726F.7C4772F0@tbr.com>
Message-ID: <3BCF837A.E86D56F6@acmenet.net>


Tabla bin Rasa wrote:
> 
> Anti-Gay Bomb Slur Wrong, Navy Says
...
> ``We immediately notified Navy commanders involved with Operation
> Enduring Freedom to ensure steps were taken to
> prevent a recurrence of this unfortunate incident. They have done so,''
> Pietropaoli wrote.

Ironic name for the operation. I guess American sailors have the
enduring freedom to be complete conformists to the current orthodoxy,
and the rest of Americans have the enduring freedom to pay for it.

Incidentally, if the bomb had said "High Jack This, Sheep Fuckers",
would PETA have filed a complaint?

-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From frissell at panix.com  Thu Oct 18 18:38:38 2001
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 21:38:38 -0400
Subject: Your papers please
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011018154609.0261b840@10.0.0.2>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011018144843.03cdb8b8@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011018213705.031ab5e0@frissell@brillig.panix.com>


Don't do it in Massachusetts.  They consider it wiretapping.  Most states 
aren't so funny.  But why take it out.  Leave it in your pocket (save when 
clearing the metal detector, of ocurse).

DCF

At 03:48 PM 10/18/01 -0700, Jamie Lawrence wrote:
>Sometime around  02:50 PM 10/18/2001 -0700, Steve Schear opined thusly:
>
>
> >http://cgi.newcity.com/exitlog/frameset.php?close=http://www.citypaper.ne 
> t/articles/101801/news.godfrey.shtml&back=http://www.newcity.com
>
>
>Does anyone know the legal issues surrounding the act of taking
>a pocket tape recorder and recording at least my side of  this sort
>of transaction?
>
>I know what the likely result would be; I wondered if I had any
>obligation not to record anything I might happen to say while
>interacting with airport authorities.
>
>-j




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From: promo at allsurvival.com (AllSurvival)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001  21:50:21 +1700
Subject: GET PREPARED!
Message-ID: <200110190746.AAA28057@toad.com>

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From tbr at tbr.com  Thu Oct 18 21:56:03 2001
From: tbr at tbr.com (Tabla bin Rasa)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 21:56:03 -0700
Subject: FBI anthrax posters.
Message-ID: <3BCFB263.8BB0040A@tbr.com>


At 07:32 PM 10/18/01 -0500, measl at mfn.org wrote:
>Anyone else find their work environment covered with the new FBI
>"posters" (8 1/2 x 11 color) on how to recognize mail which may be from

>terrorists, and/or contain anthrax?

They'll be worth money to the survivors about 50 years hence.




From tbr at tbr.com  Thu Oct 18 22:06:58 2001
From: tbr at tbr.com (Tabla bin Rasa)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 22:06:58 -0700
Subject: Stu Baker on CALEA and the Net
Message-ID: <3BCFB4F2.9BBF6B88@tbr.com>


At 12:54 AM 10/19/01 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>On Thu, Oct 18, 2001 at 05:43:22PM -0700, Greg Broiles wrote:
>> If the FBI really is preparing for a domestic surveillance
initiative,
>> hearing about that months in advance is a lot more helpful than yet
another
>> incompatible peer-to-peer content distribution system.
>
>Greg makes an excellent point. Think of it as an early warning.

You're being generous to the launcher of an evil trial balloon
because he is a personable guy.




From honig at sprynet.com  Thu Oct 18 22:13:10 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 22:13:10 -0700
Subject: Your papers please
In-Reply-To: <20011019134926.538fd6d5.inc@fastmedia.net>
References: <3BCF94B8.E2AFE951@mozcom.com>
 
 <3BCF94B8.E2AFE951@mozcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011018221310.009b6100@pop.sprynet.com>


At 01:49 PM 10/19/01 -1000, cpaul wrote:
>On Fri, 19 Oct 2001 10:49:28 +0800 "F. Marc de Piolenc"
 wrote:
>
>> Sounds like we need to be dictating into cellphones, with remote
>> recording!
>
>fishing through wreckage for a crumpled black box recorder seems pretty
>old fashioned, too.
>

30K planes in the air before; maybe 20K now (or 30K 2/3rds full..).
Lots of data from mobile senders.  [Yes, some of the 30K are too small to
be interesting.]
Though now perhaps you could do it by piggybacking on the cellphone 
mesh?   Cheaper than satellite.  
(Though what about hitting multiple cells, the non-EMI reason for not
using cells on planes)

N years ago a robust tape recorder was the best you could do;
N/2 years ago a solid state recorder became reasonable.  For some
value of N.  Now RF (digitally encoded, bursty?) is feasible.







 






  







From tbr at tbr.com  Thu Oct 18 22:25:24 2001
From: tbr at tbr.com (Tabla bin Rasa)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 22:25:24 -0700
Subject: Reporters Without Borders Attacks U.S. Pact on Satellite Images
Message-ID: <3BCFB943.4659027@tbr.com>


http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGABC3LEZSC.html

    Reporters Without Borders Attacks U.S. Pact on Satellite Images
                          The Associated Press
                         Published: Oct 18, 2001
PARIS (AP) - A media advocacy group on Thursday criticized the U.S.
military for buying exclusive rights to commercial satellite imagery of
Afghanistan and said the move amounts to censorship because it blocks
media access to views of the war zone.

Paris-based Reporters Without Borders urged Defense Secretary Donald H.
Rumsfeld to revoke a deal that gives the U.S. military sole access to
pictures taken by Ikonos - considered the most efficient civilian
satellite - that display the area involved in Operation Enduring
Freedom.

The Pentagon duty officer could not immediately be reached for comment
Thursday night.

"This contract, effective since the first day of U.S. military strikes
on Afghanistan, is a way of disguised censorship aimed at preventing the
media from doing their monitoring job," Reporters Without Borders
director Robert Menard said in a statement.

Though there are other imagery satellites with pictures for sale, Ikonos
pictures are considered the best available to civilians.




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Thu Oct 18 19:36:54 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 22:36:54 -0400
Subject: Your papers please
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011018144843.03cdb8b8@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20011018213705.031ab5e0@frissell@brillig.panix.com>
Message-ID: <3BCF91C6.636D46B9@acmenet.net>


Duncan Frissell wrote:
> 
> Don't do it in Massachusetts.  They consider it wiretapping.  Most states
> aren't so funny.  But why take it out.  Leave it in your pocket (save when
> clearing the metal detector, of ocurse).

MA wiretapping law applies only to secret recording. In theory, holding
the thing in plain sight should be ok.

That's the written law. Case law might be different, and I might know it
if I were a Massachusetts lawyer, which I ain't. Also, as measl pointed
out, jackbooted thugs can trash the device and lie about it later. (I
had a similar encounter which resulted in my equipment being smashed and
the pigs lying about it when I complained. I wasn't arrested in that
incident, though.)


-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From john at kozubik.com  Thu Oct 18 23:18:09 2001
From: john at kozubik.com (John Kozubik)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 23:18:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: What info does Zero Knowledge collect on users of Freedom
  3.0?
In-Reply-To: <20011019015011.A29487@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: 


Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this a moot point ?  I was under the
impression that ZKS was going to pull the plug sometime in the very near
future.

-----
John Kozubik - john at kozubik.com - http://www.kozubik.com



On Fri, 19 Oct 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> ----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh  -----
> 
> From: Declan McCullagh 
> Subject: FC: What info does Zero Knowledge collect on users of Freedom 3.0?
> To: politech at politechbot.com
> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 01:41:09 -0700
> 
> 
> [I agreed to delete Anonymous' name before posting, but it is fair to point 
> out that Anonymous works for a company that is in some areas a competitor 
> to ZKS. I offered ZKS the opportunity to reply; their response follows. My 
> own thoughts: If ZKS wants to display tailored ads, it makes sense that 
> Freedom clients will communicate with the mother ship on a more-or-less 
> regular basis. This is what Eudora and Opera do, and what Freedom 3.0 
> apparently does (I haven't used it). The question is whether users are 
> aware of the potential privacy risks. --Declan]




From wolf at priori.net  Thu Oct 18 23:54:38 2001
From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 23:54:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: What info does Zero Knowledge collect on users of Freedom
  3.0?
In-Reply-To: <20011019015011.A29487@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: 


On Fri, 19 Oct 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> [I agreed to delete Anonymous' name before posting, but it is fair to point
> out that Anonymous works for a company that is in some areas a competitor
> to ZKS.

[snip]

> This would also include any cookies set from
> zeroknowledge.com, (which ZKS sets every time you go there),
> but I filter cookies through the MEconomy system, so
> I had none from them.

[snip]

Hhmm. Anonymous doesn't work for MEconomy by any chance, does he?


-MW-




From tcmay at got.net  Fri Oct 19 00:00:58 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 00:00:58 -0700
Subject: Your papers please
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <0C8BFF9C-C45F-11D5-8249-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Thursday, October 18, 2001, at 05:59 PM, measl at mfn.org wrote:
> In 1983 I was questioned by a (New York) police officer, who interrupted
> my quite open and obvious dictation into a hand held microcassette
> recorder to do it.  Since he saw the thing in my hand, and did not ask 
> me
> to turn it off, I let it run during what was essentially a "Terry Stop".
>
> When the Terry stop escalated, and I was ordered to follow the officer 
> for
> more questioning, I asked him, while holding out the recorder for the
> answer, whether I was under arrest.  Answer: no.  Followed by "Am I free
> to go?".  Answer no.  "Sir, I believe these two conditions are mutually
> exclusive: either I am under arrest, or I am free to go.  As I have 
> things
> to do, I need to know which it is, so that I may either go do them, or
> call my attorney to join us".
>
> My reward was a crushed microcassette recorder, a "missing" cassette (he
> claimed the recorder was both damaged and empty at the time he first
> encountered it), and an arrest (and conviction no less!).
>
> On the way to central booking, he helped himself to my pocket change to
> pay for the coffee and doughnuts for him and his three buddies (they
> actually stopped en-route, leaving me cuffed in the car alone for about
> 20 minutes).


He earned killing. You would be justified in arranging his death, if 
this really happened.

If this really happened and you have not yet taken him out with a good 
rifle, why not?

(I realize you cannot say one way or the other whether you delivered 
justice to this (alleged)  miscreant, but my point remains.)

Personally, I doubt your story. Someone who does what you say was done 
to you has clearly earned killing.


--Tim May




From tcmay at got.net  Fri Oct 19 00:12:59 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 00:12:59 -0700
Subject: FBI anthrax posters.
In-Reply-To: <3BCFB263.8BB0040A@tbr.com>
Message-ID: 


On Thursday, October 18, 2001, at 09:56 PM, Tabla bin Rasa wrote:

> At 07:32 PM 10/18/01 -0500, measl at mfn.org wrote:
>> Anyone else find their work environment covered with the new FBI
>> "posters" (8 1/2 x 11 color) on how to recognize mail which may be from
>
>> terrorists, and/or contain anthrax?
>
> They'll be worth money to the survivors about 50 years hence

It may be that justice delivered to Amerika results in their being fewer 
than 3000 survivors 50 years hence. I don't see them collecting old 
regime posters.


--Tim May
"Extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice."--Barry Goldwater




From declan at well.com  Thu Oct 18 21:54:38 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 00:54:38 -0400
Subject: Stu Baker on CALEA and the Net
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011018171714.036c5a40@bivens.parrhesia.com>;
  from gbroiles@well.com on Thu, Oct 18, 2001 at 05:43:22PM -0700
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011018144500.036871c0@bivens.parrhesia.com>
  <20011019001238.19F0325A11@suburbia.net>
  <5.1.0.14.2.20011018171714.036c5a40@bivens.parrhesia.com>
Message-ID: <20011019005438.A10358@cluebot.com>


On Thu, Oct 18, 2001 at 05:43:22PM -0700, Greg Broiles wrote:
> If the FBI really is preparing for a domestic surveillance initiative, 
> hearing about that months in advance is a lot more helpful than yet another 
> incompatible peer-to-peer content distribution system.

Greg makes an excellent point. Think of it as an early warning.

-Declan




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Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 01:37:51
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From declan at well.com  Fri Oct 19 01:41:09 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 01:41:09 -0700
Subject: FC: What info does Zero Knowledge collect on users of Freedom 3.0?
Message-ID: 


[I agreed to delete Anonymous' name before posting, but it is fair to point 
out that Anonymous works for a company that is in some areas a competitor 
to ZKS. I offered ZKS the opportunity to reply; their response follows. My 
own thoughts: If ZKS wants to display tailored ads, it makes sense that 
Freedom clients will communicate with the mother ship on a more-or-less 
regular basis. This is what Eudora and Opera do, and what Freedom 3.0 
apparently does (I haven't used it). The question is whether users are 
aware of the potential privacy risks. --Declan]

********


From dan at termina.com  Thu Oct 18 17:42:12 2001
From: dan at termina.com (Dan Jones)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 01:42:12 +0100
Subject: "Expert" fooled by Bert Stego
In-Reply-To: <3BCF3FD3.458A94E0@acm.org>
References: <3BCF3FD3.458A94E0@acm.org>
Message-ID: <20011019014212.A11938@nitric.net>


http://www.guardian.co.uk/online/story/0,3605,575821,00.html
(second article down)

So much for conspiracy theory - maybe that's the best image of bin Laden they could find. The ramifications for poor Ernie, however, aren't so amusing.





 - dan

On Thu, Oct 18, 2001 at 01:47:16PM -0700, Optimizzin Al-gorithm wrote:
> At 12:40 PM 10/18/01 -0700, auto301094 at hushmail.com wrote:
> >
> >Expert Warns Al Qaeda Planning Major Biological Attack
> >
> >DefenseWatch: One of the illustrations shows Osama bin Laden next to a
> cartoon
> >character from Sesame Street. What significance does that image have?
> >
> >The Sesame Street character that has appeared in a huge poster with
> Osama bin
> >Laden is significant in that it is yellow and has a mask-like quality.
> And one
> >can be certain that it was not placed on that huge poster by accident,
> as some people have stupidly suggested. It is a signal.
> 
> Bert Stego?  Occam's razor, dude.
> 
> 
> >Robert Koontz is an experimental nuclear physicist who earned his Ph.D.
> in 1980
> >at the University of Maryland. His specialties are experimental nuclear
> 
> >physics and high-energy physics, but he is also an expert in certain
> areas of
> >electronics, computer systems, software development and matters
> relating to
> >electronic intelligence gathering. Koontz has been a Staff Scientist at
> the
> >Department of Energys Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory, a Professor of
> Physics at
> >the University of South Dakota, and formerly was an instructor at the
> National
> >Security Agency.He lives in Pennsylvania.
> 
> He might be smart, and the rest of what he says is interesting,
> but he has paranoid delusions W.R.T. Bert.




From declan at well.com  Thu Oct 18 22:50:11 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 01:50:11 -0400
Subject: What info does Zero Knowledge collect on users of Freedom 3.0?
Message-ID: <20011019015011.A29487@cluebot.com>


----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh  -----


From declan at well.com  Thu Oct 18 22:58:25 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 01:58:25 -0400
Subject: Stu Baker on CALEA and the Net
In-Reply-To: <3BCFB4F2.9BBF6B88@tbr.com>; from tbr@tbr.com on Thu, Oct
  18, 2001 at 10:06:58PM -0700
References: <3BCFB4F2.9BBF6B88@tbr.com>
Message-ID: <20011019015825.A29547@cluebot.com>


Huh? I've known Stu for years. I've been on panels with him
(http://www.mccullagh.org/image/950-17/aba-netspionage-broadcast.html)
and have debated him (http://www.politechbot.com/p-02518.html).
I'm hardly being "generous" to say that even evil trial balloons are
ueful to know about.

-Declan


On Thu, Oct 18, 2001 at 10:06:58PM -0700, Tabla bin Rasa wrote:
> At 12:54 AM 10/19/01 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >On Thu, Oct 18, 2001 at 05:43:22PM -0700, Greg Broiles wrote:
> >> If the FBI really is preparing for a domestic surveillance
> initiative,
> >> hearing about that months in advance is a lot more helpful than yet
> another
> >> incompatible peer-to-peer content distribution system.
> >
> >Greg makes an excellent point. Think of it as an early warning.
> 
> You're being generous to the launcher of an evil trial balloon
> because he is a personable guy.




From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Fri Oct 19 02:21:44 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 02:21:44 -0700
Subject: stupid anthrax q: would microwaving your snail mail help?
In-Reply-To: <3BC9F164.4BE4C9EE@sunder.net>; from sunder@sunder.net on Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 04:11:16PM -0400
References: <3BC9F164.4BE4C9EE@sunder.net>
Message-ID: <20011019022144.A2024@navel.introspect>

on Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 04:11:16PM -0400, sunder (sunder at sunder.net) wrote:
> This is a stupid question but as I'm not a biologist, I'll ask it
> anyway and risk looking foolish...
> 
> Would it help to microwave your mail if you don't know where it came
> from and you're sure it doesn't contain an objects?  i.e. it's not a
> CD you've ordered from Amazon. :)

This suggestion turned up on Kuro5hin, a web discussion site (Slashdot's
baby brother):

    If you want to sterilize your mail, simply place the unopened
    envelope on an ironing board and place a damp, thin cloth on top of
    it. Then iron it. Yes, iron it. Just like you would iron your pants.
    The damp heat will kill any bacteria, including anthrax, inside the
    envelope, and you will be safe.

    http://www.kuro5hin.org/comments/2001/10/18/44222/299/16#16

Probably more accessible to most of the population (and workplaces) than
claves, pressure cookers, or irradiation equipment.

Anyone have thoughts or (?) knowledge on efficacy, or guidelines on how
long the heating should last for decontamination?

The obvious terrorist counter-countermeasure would be to add a
heat-activated agent to the weapon.

Peace.

-- 
Karsten M. Self        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?             Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html
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From cuatdtopu2 at refercentral.com  Thu Oct 18 23:28:24 2001
From: cuatdtopu2 at refercentral.com (Garnet Jackson)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 02:28:24 -0400
Subject: Life Is Like A Box Of Chocolates
Message-ID: <200110190630.BAA04599@einstein.ssz.com>


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From declan at well.com  Fri Oct 19 02:36:00 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 02:36:00 -0700
Subject: What info does Zero Knowledge collect on users of Freedom
  3.0?
In-Reply-To: 
References: <20011019015011.A29487@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20011019023123.0211dd90@mail.well.com>


They're pulling the plug on the Freedom anon-network. They're now using the 
name Freedom 3.0 to refer to a different, new product that does stuff like 
cookie blocking.

-Declan

At 11:18 PM 10/18/01 -0700, John Kozubik wrote:
>Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this a moot point ?  I was under the
>impression that ZKS was going to pull the plug sometime in the very near
>future.




From nobody at hyperreal.pl  Thu Oct 18 20:30:22 2001
From: nobody at hyperreal.pl (Anonymous)
Date: 19 Oct 2001 03:30:22 -0000
Subject: Wartime Secrecy Presents Hazards to U.S. Freedom
Message-ID: <69dd4bd82654c33ab9c7d0346257d5d2@hyperreal.pl>


http://www.newsday.com/news/columnists/ny-vpcoc162417210oct16.column

Wartime Secrecy Presents Hazards to U.S. Freedom

Marie Cocco

October 16, 2001

ABDALLAH YASSINE says he is going home.

Nothing can dissuade him. Not the aid and comfort he's received from his suburban neighbors, who have provided food for his family and even arranged for a local church to pay a month's mortgage. Not pressure from his in-laws, who remind him that he has much in the United States - five children on the honor roll, a brand-new home, a car - and that he would have nothing back in Lebanon. Not even seeing the possibility that the immigration violation for which he was picked up a month ago, on the Saturday after the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, might be resolved without further distress.

"I told him he's making an irrational decision," said Samir Shaban, Yassine's brother-in-law. "He said, 'You didn't spend 18 days in jail for doing nothing.'"

Yassine showed up for his shift with a security company at Dulles Airport on the weekend after the attacks. He was shackled, led from the terminal and brought home to get his papers - then carted off to jail. His family was told he'd be released in an hour. But, for about two weeks, Yassine was held on a violation that involved working a second job for an employer - the security company - that was not listed as the employer on his guest-worker visa.

He was kept in shackles and moved to three different jails. He was first denied bond, but later - after his lawyer, Denyse Sabagh, was quoted describing the way immigrants were being held virtually incommunicado on minor violations - he was freed on $2,500 bond. Yassine is one of some 700 people who have been rounded up since the terror attacks. The Justice Department does not claim these hundreds have any connection at all to the crimes. In fact, administration officials have suggested those with clear links may number only about a dozen. There are another 190 people at large, Attorney General John Ashcroft has said, who are being sought because they may have aided the terrorists.

And so, by the administration's own count, hundreds of people are now in jail who the authorities do not believe can be of help in this terrible matter. Some - 148 at last count - are immigrants held on violations such as Yassine's.

That leaves more than 500 about whom we are told absolutely nothing. Not their names, nor where they are being held. We are not told whether their offenses amount to having the misfortune of a Mideastern name and a broken tail-light. Or whether local authorities, who conducted many of the sweeps, have already released some who are guilty of little more than looking like an Arab. Or how many are material witnesses.

"We haven't released that," said Justice Department spokesman Dan Nelson.

It is the administration's all-purpose answer. Wartime powers to legitimately restrict the press from getting information that could jeopardize troops or law-enforcement operations are stretched to new proportions. The public is told nothing about hundreds in jail. Television isn't supposed to broadcast the videotaped propaganda of Osama bin Laden and his henchmen. We were supposed to submit to the idea that the people's elected representatives weren't to be briefed on the war or the threats at home. So strained was this over-reach that it was pulled back in a day.

Secrecy in war is most necessary, and most dangerous. Efforts to control information slip easily into cover-ups. "Trust us" soon becomes a veil that erodes public trust.

We are unanimous in saying this war against terrorism is waged to protect freedom. Ashcroft himself, commenting on the targeting of media outlets in the anthrax attacks, turned a nice phrase when he described this latest line of attack: "If people hate freedom, they ought to hate information that allows free people to make good decisions," he said on the CBS program "Face the Nation."

Well put. We wait, now, for this advice to be well followed. 

Copyright ) 2001, Newsday, Inc.




From mix at disastry.dhs.org  Thu Oct 18 19:15:13 2001
From: mix at disastry.dhs.org (Anonymous sender)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 04:15:13 +0200
Subject: Sign of Escalating Threat
Message-ID: <2ddbf0b0825298a859caac1364cb4097@disastry.dhs.org>


http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/17/national/17WEAP.html?pagewanted=print

Sign of Escalating ThreatBy STEPHEN ENGELBERG and JUDITH MILLERNews AnalysisThe discovery of what government officials say is high-grade anthraxin a letter mailed to Congress is the most worrisome development yetin a series of bioterrorist attacks that has already rattled thenation.The officials and weapons experts said yesterday that it suggestedthat somewhere, someone has access to the sort of germ weapons capableof inflicting huge casualties.So far, the officials said, the attacker or attackers have used arudimentary delivery system: the mail. Their intent and capabilitiesremain unknown, as does the amount of anthrax available to them. Butwhat worries the officials in Washington is the possibility that anadversary with even a small quantity could easily find much moreeffective means of spreading the disease.Until yesterday's preliminary analysis of the letter received by TomDaschle, the Senate majority leader, the spate of anthrax-lacedenvelopes stirred considerable anxie!
ty!
 but posed a limited threat.Some experts assumed that the anthrax being sent around the countrywas crudely made, composed mostly of large particles that fell to theground and thus endangered primarily those in the immediate area.What government officials say arrived in Senator Daschle's office wassignificantly more threatening. Following the use of anthrax inFlorida, it suggests that for the first time in history asophisticated form of anthrax has been developed and used as a weaponin warfare or bioterrorism.The key to understanding the danger, experts said, is in the size ofthe particles. The anthrax sent to Mr. Daschle, government officialssaid, was finely milled so that it would float a considerable distanceon the smallest of air currents.Producing germs that could be spread as a mist had been the maintechnical challenge facing germ warriors throughout the 20th century.Anthrax is what the Nobel laureate Joshua Lederberg calls a"professional pathogen," a hardy germ that co!
ul!
d wreak havoc ifinhaled. The trick was turning it into an aerosol that lingers.Decades ago, Soviet and American scientists separately devised methodsto dry and grind anthrax into the tiny particles � five microns orless � that could easily enter the nostrils and lodge in the lungs.Experts say an adversary armed with anthrax in this form would have ahost of possible targets for mass terrorism. Experiments by the UnitedStates in the 1960's showed that anthrax released in the New York Citysubway could spread widely underground, infecting large numbers ofpeople. Federal officials used a benign germ related to anthrax todemonstrate the possible effects.An enemy with large quantities of high-grade anthrax could mount acredible attack on a city or large office building. Dried anthraxcould be spread using a crop-duster or small airplane equipped withthe appropriate nozzles. Buildings are an easier target and could becontaminated with a much smaller amount of anthrax pumped through a!
ga!
rden spray bottle, experts say.Victims of an anthrax attack can be easily treated with antibiotics,but that requires that public health officials recognize the germ hasbeen dispersed at a particular location. Experts say that detectionequipment is far from reliable, which means the first signs could comewhen people show up in the emergency room with flulike symptoms.Anthrax was one of the most important weapons in both the SovietUnion's and the United States' germ weapons arsenals.Officials from both countries say they never used germ weapons, thoughKen Alibek, a prominent defector from the Soviet germ warfare program,maintains that Moscow may have used germs as weapons against Germanyand in Afghanistan.The United States abandoned its own germ program in 1969, and soonafter most of the world's nations signed an international treatybanning the development and possession of such weapons.The Soviet Union also signed the pact, but cheated on a massive scale,say former Soviet off!
ic!
ials who worked to refine the strains ofanthrax, among other germs, until the fall of the Soviet Union in1990.In the 1980's, other nations, notably Iraq, began developing the germas a weapon. Iraqi scientists spent more than five years on theproject, cultivating anthrax and processing it into a wet slurry thatwas loaded into bombs and missiles.United Nations inspectors who later studied the Iraqi program saidBaghdad did not manage to produce dry anthrax that could be deliveredas an aerosol though it did buy specialized nozzles for its fleet ofcrop- dusters.In the years since, United Nations officials say, Iraq has acquiredthe capability to produce the high-grade, dry anthrax of theappropriate particle size.None of this history gives investigators much of a hint as to theorigins of the current attack. It is not clear whether the anthraxsent to Senator Daschle was produced by the attacker or attackers,bought from a foreign nation or made with the help of a roguescientist.Nor w!
as!
 it known whether the attacker or attackers could make orobtain larger quantities.Former germ weapons scientists say that neither is easy. It tookexperienced Iraqi scientists several years to figure out how tocultivate large amounts of anthrax, which is the crucial first step tomaking a weapon.Drying the germs is relatively straightforward. But that processcreates a mix of particles that stick together, and most of them arefar too large for use as an effective weapon. Grinding the material toa small, uniform size without damaging a significant portion of thegerms is not easily done, former American and Soviet germ scientistssay.The discovery of expertly processed anthrax, one former scientistsaid, casts serious doubt on the theory advanced by some investigatorsthat the germ attacks were the work of a lone amateur with asmattering of knowledge about biology."I do think in one form or another, a state was involved," one formerAmerican scientist said. "It could be employees of !
a !
former state,such as a Russian scientist."Nor is it clear whether Al Qaeda, Osama bin Laden's network, wasinvolved in any way. American intelligence officials say Mr. bin Ladenhas tried to acquire nuclear, chemical and biological weapons.Until now, there has been no suggestion that he has succeeded in thisgoal, although there have been reports of testing chemicals and crudebiological weapons on animals at one of his training camps inAfghanistan.The attempted use of anthrax against a United States senator takesPresident Bush into a new, uncharted realm, particularly if the attackis ever linked to a specific nation. On the eve of the gulf war, hisfather weighed the question of whether to respond with nuclear weaponsto a germ attack against the United States-led coalition. After adiscussion among his senior advisers, President George Bush decidedagainst such retaliation. Instead, American officials sent Baghdad anambiguously phrased warning that was delivered in a letter from M!
r.!
Bush to Saddam Hussein."Your country," the letter said, "will pay a terrible price if youorder unconscionable acts."




From verba at rol.it  Thu Oct 18 20:52:02 2001
From: verba at rol.it (verba at rol.it)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 05:52:02 +0200
Subject: Verba Volant del 18-10-01
Message-ID: <1003470722@web2bk.logos.it>


Verba Volant del 18-10-01,
Every day a new quotation translated into many languages. 

Logos Translations - www.logostranslations.com 
_________________

Quotation of the day:
Author - Norman Mailer
http://www.logos.it/bio/norman_mailer.html

English - why do we kill people who have killed other people? To tell other people that killing is wrong?
Italian - perch� si uccidono le persone che hanno ucciso altre persone? Per dimostrare che le persone non si debbono uccidere?
Spanish - por qu� matamos a quienes han matado a otros? Para demostrar que matar est� mal?
French - pourquoi tuer ceux qui ont tu� d'autres personnes? Pour d�montrer qu'il est interdit de tuer?
Portuguese - porque � que matamos aqueles que mataram outras pessoas? Para demonstrar que � errado matar?
Brazilian Portuguese - por que matar pessoas que matam outras pessoas? Para demostrar que matar � errado?
German - warum t�tet man Menschen, die andere Menschen get�tet haben? Um zu zeigen, dass man Menschen nicht t�ten darf?
Hungarian - mi�rt �lj�k meg azokat, akik m�sokat meg�ltek? Hogy �gy demonstr�ljuk az �l�s helytelen volt�t?
Finnish - miksi surmaamme ihmisen, joka on surmannut toisen? N�ytt��ksemme, ettei ihmisi� saa surmata?
Catalan - per qu� es matan persones que han matat altres persones? Per demostrar que les persones no es tenen que matar?
Croatian - za�to se ubijaju ljudi koji su ubili nekoga? Da bi se dokazalo da ne treba ubijati?
Czech - proc zab�j�me lidi, kter� zabili jin� lidi? Abychom naznacili ostatn�m, �e zab�jet se nem�?
Dutch - waarom vermoorden we mensen die andere mensen hebben vermoord? Om aan de andere mensen aan te tonen dat moorden fout is?
Emiliano-Romagnolo - cum'ela c'a s'amaza dla zenta c'la amazed l'eltra zent? Par fe vida ch'an bsogna amazer unquel?
Latin - cur homines qui alios homines necaverunt necantur? Num ad probandum homines necandos non esse?
Latvian; Lettish - kadel mes nogalinam cilvekus, kuri ir nogalinaju�i citus cilvekus? Lai paraditu citiem cilvekiem, ka nogalinat ir slikti?
Polish - dlaczego zabija sie osoby, kt�re zabily innych? Aby pokazac ze nie powinno sie zabijac ludzi?
Romanian - pentru ce sunt ucise persoanele care au ucis alte persoane? Pentru a demonstra ca oamenii nu trebuie sa fie ucisi?
Slovak - preco zab�jat osoby, ktor� zabili in�ch? Aby sa uk�zalo, �e sa nesm� zab�jat ludia?
Venetian - parch� se copa le persone che ga cop� altre persone? Par far vedare che no' se ga da copare le persone?
Sicilian - picch� s'ammazzunu 'i cristiani ca 'mmazzunu a autri crisriani? Pi dimustrari ca 'i cristiani non s'ann'ammazzari?
Flemish - waarom vermoorden we mensen die andere mensen hebben vermoord? Om aan de andere mensen aan te tonen dat moorden fout is?
Ferrarese - parch� a's copa il pers�n ch'i a cup� d'altar pers�n? Par far vedar ca'ns dev brisa cupar il pers�n?
Bolognese - parch� as m�za dla z�nt ch�i an maz� dl��tra z�nt? Par f�r da v�dder a ch� �ter ch�an bis�ggna br�sa maz�r la z�nt? 

_________________

All languages, please click on this link
http://www.rol.it/owa-k/press.frasiproc.carica?code=425
_________________

To unsubscribe from Verba Volant, please follow this link:
http://www.rol.it/owa-k/press.rol_ml.verbavolant 

and write in the empty field next to unsubscribe the email address that you find after "TO:" in the Verba Volant emails 
alternatively write to the following address: unsubscribe_volant at rol.it always copying the EMAIL address written after "TO:"




From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Oct 19 06:15:26 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 06:15:26 -0700
Subject: Biowar Disinfo
In-Reply-To: <20011019094658.17523.qmail@sidereal.kz>
References: <20011019022144.A2024@navel.introspect>
  <3BC9F164.4BE4C9EE@sunder.net> <20011019022144.A2024@navel.introspect>
Message-ID: <200110191021.GAA14908@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>


Dr. Evil wrote:

>There is no counter-countermeasure necessary.  The goal of the
>terrorists isn't to take down America by killing Americans.  The goal
>of anthrax is to spread hysteria and terror, and it is doing that with
>great efficacy.

The Wall Street Journal of October 18 quoted portions of Congressional
testimony by Ken Alibek, former top Russian biowar researcher, as
saying that of the five main purposes for developing anthrax as a
weapon, the least importnat purpose was injuring or killing people. 
The most important purpose was to create terror and panic.

Alibek was reported to have said that anthrax was not that dangerous,
that it took a substantial dose to cause injury and more to kill, that
even crop-dusting Washington DC with weapons grade stuff would
not kill the huge numbers alleged.

But that lack of effectiveness was not what was to be publicized, 
he said, instead development of the anthrax attack system included 
massive disinformation about its lethality before all else. In short,
anthrax is primarily psywar (as is most NBCI WMD).

Richard Preston is his two New Yorker articles* a while back heavily
relied upon Alibek for his terrifying bio-WMD scenarios. I don't recall 
Alibek being so whipsaw disinformational in those articles as he 
allegedly was in briefing Congress how to whipsaw the public.

Still, there is the smallpox campaign just getting underway to
escalate the horrendous, shocking, information Pearl Harbor
attack.

-----

*

  http://cryptome.org/smallpox-wmd.htm

  http://cryptome.org/bioweap.htm




From dog3 at ns.charc.net  Fri Oct 19 03:16:19 2001
From: dog3 at ns.charc.net (cubic-dog)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 06:16:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Your papers please
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011018144843.03cdb8b8@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: 


On Thu, 18 Oct 2001, Steve Schear wrote:

> Everyone knows it is a bad idea to try and board a plane carrying a box 
> cutter, a flight manual written in Arabic, or a sack full of mysterious 
> white powder. But with ultra-tightened airport security, a book could also 
> prevent you from boarding that plane.
> 
> No kidding. It happened just last week in Philadelphia.
> 
> http://cgi.newcity.com/exitlog/frameset.php?close=http://www.citypaper.net/articles/101801/news.godfrey.shtml&back=http://www.newcity.com
> 
> steve
> 

Wow!

Ed Abby, rest his ill-tempered soul, would be
very proud. 




From dog3 at ns.charc.net  Fri Oct 19 03:27:12 2001
From: dog3 at ns.charc.net (cubic-dog)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 06:27:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Your papers please
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011018154609.0261b840@10.0.0.2>
Message-ID: 



It's dodgy. 

I wish I could quote chapter and verse, but I don't recall.

The closest you could come and /maybe/ get away with it, would
be to have a cell activated and your lawyer on the line. 

LE would still cop a major attitude. They DO NOT like being
documented. They have some laws or regulations backing them up on it as
well. 

I looked into this about 5 years ago when a neighboring state was
starting to get into the "Papers Please, Ausweiss Controll Bitte" 
mind set in their "war on drugs". The thought was for me, a clean
for many years fellow, to drive a profilable vehicle in profilable
manner, while wired through potential drug checkpoint areas trying
to attract a bust. 

Our lawyer decided it was way too dodgy legally.

Some folks are going to want to call bullshit on this, and
I welcome it. I thought at the time, I could record, video
tape, transmit pretty much whatever I wanted. Turned out that
there are special "things" involved with surveilling the 
surveillers.  

On Thu, 18 Oct 2001, Jamie Lawrence wrote:

> Sometime around  02:50 PM 10/18/2001 -0700, Steve Schear opined thusly:
> 
> 
> >http://cgi.newcity.com/exitlog/frameset.php?close=http://www.citypaper.net/articles/101801/news.godfrey.shtml&back=http://www.newcity.com
> 
> 
> Does anyone know the legal issues surrounding the act of taking
> a pocket tape recorder and recording at least my side of  this sort
> of transaction?
> 
> I know what the likely result would be; I wondered if I had any
> obligation not to record anything I might happen to say while
> interacting with airport authorities.
> 
> -j
> 




From staff at wirelessdeveloper.com  Fri Oct 19 03:53:36 2001
From: staff at wirelessdeveloper.com (The WirelessDeveloper Team)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 06:53:36 -0400
Subject: Your WirelessDeveloper Password
Message-ID: <3BC749590000159D@mail.wirelessdeveloper.com> (added by mail.wirelessdeveloper.com)


This email has been sent automatically by The WirelessDeveloper System

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Password: W1xuIucms738

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Thank You!
The WirelessDeveloper Team




From staff at wirelessdeveloper.com  Fri Oct 19 04:17:08 2001
From: staff at wirelessdeveloper.com (The WirelessDeveloper Team)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 07:17:08 -0400
Subject: Your WirelessDeveloper Password
Message-ID: <3BC74959000015A1@mail.wirelessdeveloper.com> (added by mail.wirelessdeveloper.com)


This email has been sent automatically by The WirelessDeveloper System

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Password: W1xuIucms738

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From ravage at ssz.com  Fri Oct 19 05:27:18 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 07:27:18 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: stupid anthrax q: would microwaving your snail mail help?
In-Reply-To: <20011019022144.A2024@navel.introspect>
Message-ID: 



Sounds like somebody doesn't do their own washing/ironing :)

The steam in an iron doesn't get anywhere that hot, it'd ruin the clothes.
Also an iron will have steam escaping around the edges (when you hit the
steam button especially) and this has the potential to spread un-heated
spores into the atmosphere.

On Fri, 19 Oct 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote:

> This suggestion turned up on Kuro5hin, a web discussion site (Slashdot's
> baby brother):
> 
>     If you want to sterilize your mail, simply place the unopened
>     envelope on an ironing board and place a damp, thin cloth on top of
>     it. Then iron it. Yes, iron it. Just like you would iron your pants.
>     The damp heat will kill any bacteria, including anthrax, inside the
>     envelope, and you will be safe.
> 
>     http://www.kuro5hin.org/comments/2001/10/18/44222/299/16#16
> 
> Probably more accessible to most of the population (and workplaces) than
> claves, pressure cookers, or irradiation equipment.
> 
> Anyone have thoughts or (?) knowledge on efficacy, or guidelines on how
> long the heating should last for decontamination?


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at ssz.com  Fri Oct 19 05:37:24 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 07:37:24 -0500
Subject: Slashdot | EFF speaks out against MAPS
Message-ID: <3BD01E84.2611794@ssz.com>


EFF reminding us, bullshit. I've been saying this (and shouted down by the
CACL crowd) for years - check the archive. Wonder if Hemos/Taco will give
credit where credit is due...probably not.

http://slashdot.org/yro/01/10/17/1755213.shtml


-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at ssz.com  Fri Oct 19 05:39:31 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 07:39:31 -0500
Subject: The Register - MS digital righst management scheme cracked
Message-ID: <3BD01F03.8DE28FDA@ssz.com>


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/22354.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From honig at sprynet.com  Fri Oct 19 08:20:07 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 08:20:07 -0700
Subject: Your papers please
In-Reply-To: 
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011018144843.03cdb8b8@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011019082007.009bc200@pop.sprynet.com>


At 06:16 AM 10/19/01 -0400, cubic-dog wrote:
>
>Wow!
>
>Ed Abby, rest his ill-tempered soul, would be
>very proud. 

Abbey would be considered the Osama of an Official Terrorist
Group, his phone and all his relatives' bugged, his assets
seized, and if they could find him, he'd be disappeared.




From staff at wirelessdeveloper.com  Fri Oct 19 06:27:39 2001
From: staff at wirelessdeveloper.com (The WirelessDeveloper Team)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 09:27:39 -0400
Subject: Your WirelessDeveloper Password
Message-ID: <3BC74959000015E3@mail.wirelessdeveloper.com> (added by mail.wirelessdeveloper.com)


This email has been sent automatically by The WirelessDeveloper System

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Password: W1xuIucms738

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Thank You!
The WirelessDeveloper Team




From declan at well.com  Fri Oct 19 06:28:31 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 09:28:31 -0400
Subject: Slashdot | EFF speaks out against MAPS
In-Reply-To: <3BD01E84.2611794@ssz.com>; from ravage@ssz.com on Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 07:37:24AM -0500
References: <3BD01E84.2611794@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20011019092831.B18447@cluebot.com>


And probably hundreds of other online cranks have been ranting against
MAPS and its brethren for years as well. Doesn't mean that anyone of
substance notices, or cares.

-Declan


On Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 07:37:24AM -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> EFF reminding us, bullshit. I've been saying this (and shouted down by the
> CACL crowd) for years - check the archive. Wonder if Hemos/Taco will give
> credit where credit is due...probably not.
> 
> http://slashdot.org/yro/01/10/17/1755213.shtml
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
>  --
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>      The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.
> 
>                                              Edmund Burke (1784)
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------




From staff at wirelessdeveloper.com  Fri Oct 19 06:29:15 2001
From: staff at wirelessdeveloper.com (The WirelessDeveloper Team)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 09:29:15 -0400
Subject: Your WirelessDeveloper Password
Message-ID: <3BC74959000015E5@mail.wirelessdeveloper.com> (added by mail.wirelessdeveloper.com)


This email has been sent automatically by The WirelessDeveloper System

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Password: W1xuIucms738

Go to http://www.wirelessdeveloper.com/login.asp?email=cypherpunks at toad.com and enter your username and password to log on to the WirelessDeveloper site.

Thank You!
The WirelessDeveloper Team




From staff at wirelessdeveloper.com  Fri Oct 19 06:29:40 2001
From: staff at wirelessdeveloper.com (The WirelessDeveloper Team)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 09:29:40 -0400
Subject: Your WirelessDeveloper Password
Message-ID: <3BC74959000015E6@mail.wirelessdeveloper.com> (added by mail.wirelessdeveloper.com)


This email has been sent automatically by The WirelessDeveloper System

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Password: W1xuIucms738

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From drevil at sidereal.kz  Fri Oct 19 02:46:58 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil)
Date: 19 Oct 2001 09:46:58 -0000
Subject: stupid anthrax q: would microwaving your snail mail help?
In-Reply-To: <20011019022144.A2024@navel.introspect> (kmself@ix.netcom.com)
References: <3BC9F164.4BE4C9EE@sunder.net> <20011019022144.A2024@navel.introspect>
Message-ID: <20011019094658.17523.qmail@sidereal.kz>


> Anyone have thoughts or (?) knowledge on efficacy, or guidelines on how
> long the heating should last for decontamination?

I would not think that ordinary ironing would effectively
decontaminate letters with anthrax in them.  These are tough spores.
The only way to really find out what works would be to try the
experiment, but they need a lot of heat, so you might need to do a lot
of ironing.  Irradiation is a much better bet.  Better still is a
plain old gas mask, or maybe some anthrax vaccine.  Oh wait, civilians
aren't allowed to have vaccine because safety isn't really the goal
here.

> The obvious terrorist counter-countermeasure would be to add a
> heat-activated agent to the weapon.

There is no counter-countermeasure necessary.  The goal of the
terrorists isn't to take down America by killing Americans.  The goal
of anthrax is to spread hysteria and terror, and it is doing that with
great efficacy.  The counter-measure to hysteria is knowledge.  There
is no counter-measure to knowledge, which is why it's so cool.
Unfortunately the US government is contributing to the hysteria by
withholding knowledge.

Fortunately we have the Internet which lets us find information for
ourselves.




From proff at iq.org  Thu Oct 18 17:12:37 2001
From: proff at iq.org (Julian Assange)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 10:12:37 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Stu Baker on CALEA and the Net
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011018144500.036871c0@bivens.parrhesia.com>
Message-ID: <20011019001238.19F0325A11@suburbia.net>


> He's a gun-for-hire, not a doctrinaire blinders-on true believer for either 
> the surveillance enthusiasts or privacy freaks.

Oh, come off it.

Stu is a well known NSA zealot. The only reason there's a bridge
between Kapor and Baker is due to the cavernous ravine that lays
between them. Kapor is now apparently half-way across, following
Stu's silently bekoning finger, fearfully running from the sounds
of angels wings; fooled into believing that they lie behind and
not ahead of him.

--
 Julian Assange        |If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people
                       |together to collect wood or assign them tasks and
 proff at iq.org          |work, but rather teach them to long for the endless
 proff at gnu.ai.mit.edu  |immensity of the sea. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Fri Oct 19 07:20:34 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 10:20:34 -0400
Subject: FBI anthrax posters.
Message-ID: 


> 	Tim May[SMTP:tcmay at got.net]
> 
> 
> On Thursday, October 18, 2001, at 09:56 PM, Tabla bin Rasa wrote:
> 
> >> terrorists, and/or contain anthrax?
> >
> > They'll be worth money to the survivors about 50 years hence
> 
> It may be that justice delivered to Amerika results in their being fewer 
> than 3000 survivors 50 years hence. I don't see them collecting old 
> regime posters.
> --Tim May
> 
There may be only 3000 left if every person Tim (or someone else) feel
'needs killing' gets whacked. How many of us are on *nobody's* "little
list"?

Peter




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Fri Oct 19 10:26:06 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 10:26:06 -0700
Subject: FBI grammar (was Re: FBI utilizing supermarket club cards
  in   profiling)
In-Reply-To: <3BC589C9.13B9765C@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
References:  <20011010191939.9979.qmail@sidereal.kz>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011019101425.035dbdd0@idiom.com>


At 01:00 PM 10/11/2001 +0100, Ken Brown wrote:
>"Dr. Evil" wrote:
> >
> > > There was a time when "data" was purely the plural form of latin "datum".
> > > Not anymore. The first example given by the online Merriam-Webster
> > > dictionary is, whattayaknow, "the data is plentiful and easily 
> available".
> >
> > Some of us will always know that "data" is plural
>
>In Latin maybe. But English has this nice thing with countable and
>non-countable forms of nouns. "That data" and "those  data" mean subtly
>different things. Like "Some bread" and "some breads".

More to the point, English grammar also has a thing about
evolution, flexibility, and development and acquisition of new words,
so the mere fact that "data" was a plural noun when we first stole it,
or alternatively a collective noun, doesn't mean that that's
what we did with it when we were done adopting it into common usage.

Besides, the FBI ought to be bashed for what they *said*,
not just the inarticulateness with which you believe they said it.

English and American languages do have a lot of fundamental structure,
including a variety of competing structures,
but they're fundamentally usage-based, not centrally-controlled like French.
(And at that, French central control of language was merely a successful 
chauvinist
imposition of Parisian culture and language on the rest of the country,
intended to stomp out resistance from Provencal, Breton, and other
regional languages and dialects, during the periods when various
kings and dictators and emperors were imposing their control on the
economics and politics of the region.  .)




From staff at wirelessdeveloper.com  Fri Oct 19 07:30:24 2001
From: staff at wirelessdeveloper.com (The WirelessDeveloper Team)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 10:30:24 -0400
Subject: Your WirelessDeveloper Password
Message-ID: <3BC7495900001619@mail.wirelessdeveloper.com> (added by mail.wirelessdeveloper.com)


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The WirelessDeveloper Team




From staff at wirelessdeveloper.com  Fri Oct 19 07:30:40 2001
From: staff at wirelessdeveloper.com (The WirelessDeveloper Team)
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Subject: Your WirelessDeveloper Password
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From staff at wirelessdeveloper.com  Fri Oct 19 07:31:08 2001
From: staff at wirelessdeveloper.com (The WirelessDeveloper Team)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 10:31:08 -0400
Subject: Your WirelessDeveloper Password
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From piolenc at mozcom.com  Thu Oct 18 19:49:28 2001
From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 10:49:28 +0800
Subject: Your papers please
References: 
Message-ID: <3BCF94B8.E2AFE951@mozcom.com>


Sounds like we need to be dictating into cellphones, with remote
recording!

Marc de Piolenc

measl at mfn.org wrote:

> When the Terry stop escalated, and I was ordered to follow the officer for
> more questioning, I asked him, while holding out the recorder for the
> answer, whether I was under arrest.  Answer: no.  Followed by "Am I free
> to go?".  Answer no.  "Sir, I believe these two conditions are mutually
> exclusive: either I am under arrest, or I am free to go.  As I have things
> to do, I need to know which it is, so that I may either go do them, or
> call my attorney to join us".
> 
> My reward was a crushed microcassette recorder, a "missing" cassette (he
> claimed the recorder was both damaged and empty at the time he first
> encountered it), and an arrest (and conviction no less!).




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Fri Oct 19 10:52:04 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 10:52:04 -0700
Subject: Your papers please
Message-ID: <3BD06844.43912E2A@lsil.com>


 
David Honig  wrote :
>>fishing through wreckage for a crumpled black box recorder seems pretty
>>old fashioned, too.
>>
>
>30K planes in the air before; maybe 20K now (or 30K 2/3rds full..).
>Lots of data from mobile senders.  [Yes, some of the 30K are too small to
>be interesting.]
>Though now perhaps you could do it by piggybacking on the cellphone 
>mesh?   Cheaper than satellite.  
>(Though what about hitting multiple cells, the non-EMI reason for not
>using cells on planes)
>
>N years ago a robust tape recorder was the best you could do;
>N/2 years ago a solid state recorder became reasonable.  For some
>value of N.  Now RF (digitally encoded, bursty?) is feasible.
>
There is no reason not to have redundant systems - record locally and
remotely. This goes for airline black boxes and personal record
keeping...




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Fri Oct 19 08:08:49 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 11:08:49 -0400
Subject: [Artpunks] RE: MWandawi art
Message-ID: 


> mmotyka at lsil.com[SMTP:mmotyka at lsil.com]
> 
> 
> BTW - there's lots more art, mostly sinister if you care to see it that
> way. Look at the one in gallery 4 :
> 
> WTF is a wooden shoe ( sabot ) doing next to an Indian elephant? 
> 
> http://people.a2000.nl/mwandawi/
> 
The picture refered to (titled 'Signs') is actually the most information 
rich in the entire gallery. It appears to be an assemblage of images
which are emblematic of a large number of world cultures.

As you say, it's a lousy, low res jpg, but without even trying, I
can recognize:

*Blue jeans
*Hamburger
*Olmec head
*Roman Mosaic
*God and Adam's hands from the Sistine chapel
*Ancient Egyptian mural
*Inscribed wall blocks (Tibetian?)
*Arabic wall inscription
*Turkish coffee pot
*Egyptian hieraglyphic(sp) wall inscription
*An image of Ganesh, the Hindu god who is 
	'The remover of obstacles' (not an elephant!)
*An African mask
*A Dutch wooden shoe.

...and many others. 

If you'd checked the rest of the guy's site you'd know
that he had recently vacationed in Holland.

My take on this is that the site (and the guy) are entirely innocent.
I wouldn't particularly want his stuff hanging on my walls, but it's
similar to 'art' I'd find in a second string SoHo gallery.

I'm mailing him a copy of the letter that started it all. I'm curious 
if he'll respond.

Peter Trei




From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Oct 19 11:15:19 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 11:15:19 -0700
Subject: Stu Baker on CALEA and the Net
In-Reply-To: <20011019133941.D4E2625A0B@suburbia.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011018171714.036c5a40@bivens.parrhesia.com>
Message-ID: <200110191521.LAA23887@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>


Julian Assange affianted:

>It's wise understand someone's agenda based on their past actions
>and attempts at influence and not the affability of their face.

When I first got within 20 trace aromas of the lushness of Baker's 
double cultivated what-grows-wild-elsewhere above his peepers, 
my bubonic dingleberry squatters jumped cess to copulate 
in his.

You think darkholed bugs, you think impenetrable hedgerows to 
camouflage the skidmarks.




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Oct 18 18:27:53 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 11:27:53 +1000
Subject: Im sorry aimee
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011019112645.00a690d0@pop.useoz.com>


man who received a suspicious letter with amorous writings and lace panties 
turned it over to sheriff's deputies, who stored it in a biohazard barrel 
before determining it was not from a terrorist but from a secret admirer.




From staff at wirelessdeveloper.com  Fri Oct 19 08:37:33 2001
From: staff at wirelessdeveloper.com (The WirelessDeveloper Team)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 11:37:33 -0400
Subject: Your WirelessDeveloper Password
Message-ID: <3BC749590000163E@mail.wirelessdeveloper.com> (added by mail.wirelessdeveloper.com)


This email has been sent automatically by The WirelessDeveloper System

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Thank You!
The WirelessDeveloper Team




From staff at wirelessdeveloper.com  Fri Oct 19 08:38:08 2001
From: staff at wirelessdeveloper.com (The WirelessDeveloper Team)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 11:38:08 -0400
Subject: Your WirelessDeveloper Password
Message-ID: <3BC7495900001640@mail.wirelessdeveloper.com> (added by mail.wirelessdeveloper.com)


This email has been sent automatically by The WirelessDeveloper System

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Thank You!
The WirelessDeveloper Team




From staff at wirelessdeveloper.com  Fri Oct 19 08:38:26 2001
From: staff at wirelessdeveloper.com (The WirelessDeveloper Team)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 11:38:26 -0400
Subject: Your WirelessDeveloper Password
Message-ID: <3BC7495900001641@mail.wirelessdeveloper.com> (added by mail.wirelessdeveloper.com)


This email has been sent automatically by The WirelessDeveloper System

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Thank You!
The WirelessDeveloper Team




From staff at wirelessdeveloper.com  Fri Oct 19 08:38:31 2001
From: staff at wirelessdeveloper.com (The WirelessDeveloper Team)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 11:38:31 -0400
Subject: Your WirelessDeveloper Password
Message-ID: <3BC7495900001642@mail.wirelessdeveloper.com> (added by mail.wirelessdeveloper.com)


This email has been sent automatically by The WirelessDeveloper System

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The WirelessDeveloper Team




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Fri Oct 19 12:03:14 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 12:03:14 -0700
Subject: AG on spotting terrorists in our midst
Message-ID: <3BD078F2.C5AB002A@lsil.com>


http://www.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/conditions/10/18/ashcroft.tips/index.html

4. Someone who appears to be concealing something
   or attempting to put something over on somebody 

Does this mean that witholding your zipcode from the overinquisitive
sales clerk will get you on a list? 

Any attempts at opacity will be punished!

Sounds pretty fucking stupid, but then, what do you expect from the guy?




From sholanda_ at excite.com  Fri Oct 19 12:06:49 2001
From: sholanda_ at excite.com (Sholanda Maria Coleman)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 12:06:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: ENVELOPE STUFFING JOB
Message-ID: <30625152.1003518409463.JavaMail.imail@swirly>

is there anyway I can talk to you or one of your representatives about this
wonderful opportunity?

I'm very anxious to get started.


sholanda_ at excite.com





_______________________________________________________
Send a cool gift with your E-Card
http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/


--8269123.1003518931928.JavaMail.imail.swirly--




From nobody at talley.remailer.org  Fri Oct 19 12:09:27 2001
From: nobody at talley.remailer.org (Talley Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 12:09:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Detainees, Personal Libertarianism, and Vengeance
Message-ID: <1472ed26305aa697828fed049ced167f@talley.remailer.org>


On Wed, 17 Oct 2001 16:52:45 -0500 (CDT) Jim Chaote grokked...

>Once again Tim shows how little he really does understand...
>
>On Wed, 17 Oct 2001, Tim May wrote:
>
>> _their_ rights. The issue is about _my_ rights.
>
>'their' rights ARE 'your' rights.
>

At least it's nice to see Jim Chaote agreeing with Tim May on something, 
especially in this time where we have to all pull together.


>>--Tim May, Citizen-unit of of the once free United States
>>" The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood 
>>of patriots & tyrants. "--Thomas Jefferson, 1787
>>

> --
>    ____________________________________________________________________
>
>     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.
>
>                                             Edmund Burke (1784)
>
>       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From sholanda_ at excite.com  Fri Oct 19 12:15:31 2001
From: sholanda_ at excite.com (Sholanda Maria Coleman)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 12:15:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: ENVELOPE STUFFING JOB
Message-ID: <28504320.1003518932232.JavaMail.imail@swirly>

Is there anyway I can talk to one of your representatives?  I'm very anxious
to get started.



sholanda_ at excite.com





_______________________________________________________
Send a cool gift with your E-Card
http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/

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From tbr at tbr.com  Fri Oct 19 12:17:09 2001
From: tbr at tbr.com (Tabla bin Rasa)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 12:17:09 -0700
Subject: MS tools to send images of machines' memory to MS
Message-ID: <3BD07C35.75803C5@tbr.com>


The Computer Incident Advisory Capability (CIAC) - whose motto is
"Keeping DOE Secure"
  - this week issued a bulletin warning privacy- conscious users that
the
  Internet-connected bug-reporting capabilities of Windows XP or Office
in combination
  with recent versions of Microsoft's Internet Explorer browser could
disclose sensitive data
  to Microsoft.

  However, it described the vulnerability as a
  "medium/low" risk.

  The issue, CIAC wrote in its bulletin, is that
  the Windows Error Reporting feature takes
  a snapshot of data stored in memory at the
  time of an application failure - data that
  could include content from a document
  being edited at the time of a crash.

http://www.newsbytes.com/news/01/171293.html




From staff at wirelessdeveloper.com  Fri Oct 19 09:20:40 2001
From: staff at wirelessdeveloper.com (The WirelessDeveloper Team)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 12:20:40 -0400
Subject: Your WirelessDeveloper Password
Message-ID: <3BC7495900001A84@mail.wirelessdeveloper.com> (added by mail.wirelessdeveloper.com)


This email has been sent automatically by The WirelessDeveloper System

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Thank You!
The WirelessDeveloper Team




From sholanda_ at excite.com  Fri Oct 19 12:51:42 2001
From: sholanda_ at excite.com (Sholanda Maria Coleman)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 12:51:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: ENVELOPE STUFFING
Message-ID: <16397397.1003521102929.JavaMail.imail@swirly>


Dear Sir:

I was just on your website.  this sounds like a wonderful opportunity.  Is
there any way i can speak with a representative from your company?  i would
love to get started as soon as possible.




sholanda_ at excite.com





_______________________________________________________
Send a cool gift with your E-Card
http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/





From staff at wirelessdeveloper.com  Fri Oct 19 10:15:00 2001
From: staff at wirelessdeveloper.com (The WirelessDeveloper Team)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 13:15:00 -0400
Subject: Your WirelessDeveloper Password
Message-ID: <3BC7495900001A9B@mail.wirelessdeveloper.com> (added by mail.wirelessdeveloper.com)


This email has been sent automatically by The WirelessDeveloper System

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From staff at wirelessdeveloper.com  Fri Oct 19 10:37:49 2001
From: staff at wirelessdeveloper.com (The WirelessDeveloper Team)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 13:37:49 -0400
Subject: Your WirelessDeveloper Password
Message-ID: <3BC7495900001AA6@mail.wirelessdeveloper.com> (added by mail.wirelessdeveloper.com)


This email has been sent automatically by The WirelessDeveloper System

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The WirelessDeveloper Team




From staff at wirelessdeveloper.com  Fri Oct 19 10:38:24 2001
From: staff at wirelessdeveloper.com (The WirelessDeveloper Team)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 13:38:24 -0400
Subject: Your WirelessDeveloper Password
Message-ID: <3BC7495900001AA7@mail.wirelessdeveloper.com> (added by mail.wirelessdeveloper.com)


This email has been sent automatically by The WirelessDeveloper System

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The WirelessDeveloper Team




From inc at fastmedia.net  Fri Oct 19 16:49:26 2001
From: inc at fastmedia.net (cpaul)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 13:49:26 -1000
Subject: Your papers please
In-Reply-To: <3BCF94B8.E2AFE951@mozcom.com>
References: 
	<3BCF94B8.E2AFE951@mozcom.com>
Message-ID: <20011019134926.538fd6d5.inc@fastmedia.net>




On Fri, 19 Oct 2001 10:49:28 +0800 "F. Marc de Piolenc"  wrote:

> Sounds like we need to be dictating into cellphones, with remote
> recording!

fishing through wreckage for a crumpled black box recorder seems pretty
old fashioned, too.




> > My reward was a crushed microcassette recorder, a "missing" cassette (he
> > claimed the recorder was both damaged and empty at the time he first
> > encountered it), and an arrest (and conviction no less!).
> 




From tbr at tbr.com  Fri Oct 19 14:03:48 2001
From: tbr at tbr.com (Tabla bin Rasa)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 14:03:48 -0700
Subject: countdown to meltdown
Message-ID: <3BD09534.61F005F5@tbr.com>


Should be amusing wordplay to see Bush deal with this...

     Israel, incensed at Wednesday's assassination of right-wing cabinet
minister and former
      general Rehavam Zeevi, threatened to invoke the war on terrorism
to justify attacking the
      Palestinians if they fail to hand over Zeevi's killers.

Lets repeat our training:
    I fight for freedom
    You are a guerilla
    They are terrorists

And don't plan on vacationing in Indonesia for a while...




From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Fri Oct 19 14:45:58 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 14:45:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Criticize Israel - Get Fired
Message-ID: <200110192145.f9JLjwB26997@artifact.psychedelic.net>


Gore Vidal once observed that thanks to the pressure applied by the Israel
Lobby in the US, there is less freedom to criticize Israel in the US than
there is to criticize Israel in Israel.

There is no greater crime in the US right now than to hint that Israel's
52 years of state terror against the Palestinians, made possible by the
United States, might have had something to do with the WTC downing and the
Pentagon denting.

Any such suggestion is instantly denounced as "Blaming the Jews for the
terrorist attacks," even if no language resembling this new favorite catch
phrase of the Zionists was uttered.

Tel Aviv needs a thermonuclear enema.

A case in point.

-----

ONEIDA, N.Y. (AP) -- The Oneida Daily Dispatch, after getting complaints
of anti-Semitism, retracted an editorial that quoted a Pakistani as saying
Jews were to blame for the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

The retraction was published Thursday on the editorial page, below a
masthead that no longer contained the name of Managing Editor Jean Ryan.

The Post-Standard of Syracuse reported that Ryan and City Editor Dale
Seth, who wrote the Sept. 19 editorial, were fired Wednesday. Dispatch
Publisher Ann Campanie would not confirm the report Friday, saying it is
the paper's policy not to publicly discuss personnel matters.

"I am not working at the Oneida Daily Dispatch as of yesterday because of
repercussions from allowing the Sept. 19 editorial to be published. I am
not anti-Semitic, and anyone who knows me knows that," Ryan wrote in a
statement issued Thursday. A message left Friday for the only Jean Ryan
listed in the phone book was not immediately returned. Seth declined
comment.

The paper's three-paragraph apology said, in part, "We understand that
readers of the editorial found it offensive, poorly reasoned and based on
flawed facts. We agree with those observations."

The newspaper said it would allow a full rebuttal to be published on the
editorial page in coming days.
   
The Sept. 19 editorial quoted an unidentified Pakistani as blaming Jews
for the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.

"The fact is that in many areas of the Middle East it is believed that
history has taught them to carry out such acts," the editorial said.
"Until 1948, there was no Israel. The United Nations took Palestinian land
and gave it to a number of Jewish terrorists to rule -- Jewish terrorists
who had bombed and killed Palestinians and others in an effort to force
hands of power to see an Israel formed. Today's freedom fighter, in many
cases, was yesterday's terrorist."
   
Campanie said the apology spoke for itself, and declined further comment.

Community members met with Campanie and a representative of the paper's
parent company, Journal Register Co., on Wednesday afternoon.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Fri Oct 19 15:13:02 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 15:13:02 -0700
Subject: stupid anthrax q: would microwaving your snail mail help?
In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@ssz.com on Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 07:27:18AM -0500
References: <20011019022144.A2024@navel.introspect> 
Message-ID: <20011019151302.H17102@navel.introspect>

on Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 07:27:18AM -0500, Jim Choate (ravage at ssz.com) wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Oct 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote:
> 
> > This suggestion turned up on Kuro5hin, a web discussion site (Slashdot's
> > baby brother):
> > 
> >     If you want to sterilize your mail, simply place the unopened
> >     envelope on an ironing board and place a damp, thin cloth on top of
> >     it. Then iron it. Yes, iron it. Just like you would iron your pants.
> >     The damp heat will kill any bacteria, including anthrax, inside the
> >     envelope, and you will be safe.
> > 
> >     http://www.kuro5hin.org/comments/2001/10/18/44222/299/16#16
> > 
> > Probably more accessible to most of the population (and workplaces) than
> > claves, pressure cookers, or irradiation equipment.
> > 
> > Anyone have thoughts or (?) knowledge on efficacy, or guidelines on how
> > long the heating should last for decontamination?
> 
> Sounds like somebody doesn't do their own washing/ironing :)

I bathe regularly.  All else is gloss.

> The steam in an iron doesn't get anywhere that hot, it'd ruin the
> clothes.  

/me retreats to iron w/ thermometer.

Black and Decker "Light 'n' Easy" iron, cotton dishtowl (folded quarto),
"Good Cook" dial thermometer inserted under top fold.  With four
minutes' preheat, temperature is off the scale (220°F), extrapolating,
it looks to be 270°-280°F.  After about two minutes, there's a slight
yellowing of the dishtowel.

> Also an iron will have steam escaping around the edges (when you hit
> the steam button especially) and this has the potential to spread
> un-heated spores into the atmosphere.

The filtration offered by an envelope and moistened towel should
minimize this.

References online suggest that claving cycles are ~2h at 140°C+.  A WHO
document on animal carcass processing suggests rendering cycles range
from 10-60 minutes, though whether or not this is sufficient to
disinfect the carcasses isn't clear from a quick read.  

    http://www.who.int/emc-documents/zoonoses/docs/whoemczdi986.html

I'd say that for paranoics with a low risk threshhold, ten minutes of
steam might provide some assurance.  And neatly creased correspondence.
It's a bit hard on the pre-approved credit cards though.

Peace.

-- 
Karsten M. Self        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?             Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html
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From mmotyka at lsil.com  Fri Oct 19 15:27:35 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 15:27:35 -0700
Subject: Looking for news
Message-ID: <3BD0A8D7.F9640E51@lsil.com>


Was I hearing things or did China stop issuing visas for people from 22
middle eastern countries? Thought I heard it, can't find it.

Mike




From staff at wirelessdeveloper.com  Fri Oct 19 12:42:53 2001
From: staff at wirelessdeveloper.com (The WirelessDeveloper Team)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 15:42:53 -0400
Subject: Your WirelessDeveloper Password
Message-ID: <3BC7495900001AE2@mail.wirelessdeveloper.com> (added by mail.wirelessdeveloper.com)


This email has been sent automatically by The WirelessDeveloper System

Username: cypherpunks at toad.com
Password: W5m5oiWiy5fG

Go to http://www.wirelessdeveloper.com/login.asp?email=cypherpunks at toad.com and enter your username and password to log on to the WirelessDeveloper site.

Thank You!
The WirelessDeveloper Team




From staff at wirelessdeveloper.com  Fri Oct 19 12:43:01 2001
From: staff at wirelessdeveloper.com (The WirelessDeveloper Team)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 15:43:01 -0400
Subject: Your WirelessDeveloper Password
Message-ID: <3BC7495900001AE3@mail.wirelessdeveloper.com> (added by mail.wirelessdeveloper.com)


This email has been sent automatically by The WirelessDeveloper System

Username: cypherpunks at toad.com
Password: W5m5oiWiy5fG

Go to http://www.wirelessdeveloper.com/login.asp?email=cypherpunks at toad.com and enter your username and password to log on to the WirelessDeveloper site.

Thank You!
The WirelessDeveloper Team




From rsw at MIT.EDU  Fri Oct 19 12:54:47 2001
From: rsw at MIT.EDU (Riad S. Wahby)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 15:54:47 -0400
Subject: ENVELOPE STUFFING JOB
In-Reply-To: <28504320.1003518932232.JavaMail.imail@swirly>; from
  sholanda_@excite.com on Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 12:15:31PM -0700
References: <28504320.1003518932232.JavaMail.imail@swirly>
Message-ID: <20011019155447.B1123@positron.mit.edu>


Sholanda Maria Coleman  wrote:
> Is there anyway I can talk to one of your representatives?  I'm very anxious
> to get started.

How much laboratory experience do you have?  Specifically, we're
looking for people with experience handling white powders.  Also,
please let us know if your vaccinations are not up-to-date.

--
Riad Wahby
rsw at mit.edu
MIT VI-2/A 2002




From gbroiles at well.com  Fri Oct 19 15:58:47 2001
From: gbroiles at well.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 15:58:47 -0700
Subject: stupid anthrax q: would microwaving your snail mail help?
In-Reply-To: <20011019151302.H17102@navel.introspect>
References: 
  <20011019022144.A2024@navel.introspect>
  
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011019154629.03fefd90@bivens.parrhesia.com>


At 03:13 PM 10/19/2001 -0700, Karsten M. Self wrote:

>/me retreats to iron w/ thermometer.
>
>Black and Decker "Light 'n' Easy" iron, cotton dishtowl (folded quarto),
>"Good Cook" dial thermometer inserted under top fold.  With four
>minutes' preheat, temperature is off the scale (2200F), extrapolating,
>it looks to be 2700-2800F.  After about two minutes, there's a slight
>yellowing of the dishtowel.

Is it possible you're off by a factor of 10 here? I am very skeptical that 
you have an iron which heats up to 2200 or 2700 degrees Fahrenheit. I would 
expect a little more than a slight yellowing of the dish towel at those 
temperatures, unless you have asbestos dish towels you use along with your 
superheated iron.


--
Greg Broiles
gbroiles at well.com
"We have found and closed the thing you watch us with." -- New Delhi street kids




From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Fri Oct 19 16:13:19 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 16:13:19 -0700
Subject: stupid anthrax q: would microwaving your snail mail help?
In-Reply-To: <20011019151302.H17102@navel.introspect>; from kmself@ix.netcom.com on Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 03:13:02PM -0700
References: <20011019022144.A2024@navel.introspect>  <20011019151302.H17102@navel.introspect>
Message-ID: <20011019161318.O17102@navel.introspect>

on Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 03:13:02PM -0700, Karsten M. Self (kmself at ix.netcom.com) wrote:
> on Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 07:27:18AM -0500, Jim Choate (ravage at ssz.com) wrote:
> > On Fri, 19 Oct 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote:
> >
> > > This suggestion turned up on Kuro5hin, a web discussion site (Slashdot's
> > > baby brother):
> > >
> > >     If you want to sterilize your mail, simply place the unopened
> > >     envelope on an ironing board and place a damp, thin cloth on top of
> > >     it. Then iron it. Yes, iron it. Just like you would iron your pants.
> > >     The damp heat will kill any bacteria, including anthrax, inside the
> > >     envelope, and you will be safe.
> > >
> > >     http://www.kuro5hin.org/comments/2001/10/18/44222/299/16#16
> > >
> > > Probably more accessible to most of the population (and workplaces) than
> > > claves, pressure cookers, or irradiation equipment.
> > >
> > > Anyone have thoughts or (?) knowledge on efficacy, or guidelines on how
> > > long the heating should last for decontamination?
> >
> > Sounds like somebody doesn't do their own washing/ironing :)
> 
> I bathe regularly.  All else is gloss.
> 
> > The steam in an iron doesn't get anywhere that hot, it'd ruin the
> > clothes.
> 
> /me retreats to iron w/ thermometer.
> 
> Black and Decker "Light 'n' Easy" iron, cotton dishtowl (folded quarto),
> "Good Cook" dial thermometer inserted under top fold.  With four
> minutes' preheat, temperature is off the scale (2200F), extrapolating,
> it looks to be 2700-2800F.  After about two minutes, there's a slight
> yellowing of the dishtowel.

Above mistranslates ISO-8859-1 encoded \260 (octal), the degree sign, as
a zero.

Temperatures should read 220 F, 270 F, and 280 F, not thousands of
degrees.

-- 
Karsten M. Self        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?             Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html
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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Oct 19 14:20:40 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 16:20:40 -0500
Subject: Explosives found at Greyhound bus terminal
Message-ID: <3BD09928.43D4EC66@ssz.com>


http://www.nbc10.com/cgi-bin/gx.cgi/AppLogic+FTContentServer?pagename=FutureTense/Apps/Xcelerate/View&c=NBCArticle&cid=NBCJ2DVGXSC&p=NBCK9JZRB8C&live=true
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Fri Oct 19 14:22:03 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 16:22:03 -0500
Subject: Rep. Buyer Suggests Limited Nuclear Retaliation
Message-ID: <3BD0997B.E598B128@ssz.com>


http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/wrtv/20011018/lo/929540_1.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From tbr at tbr.com  Fri Oct 19 16:33:13 2001
From: tbr at tbr.com (Tabla bin Rasa)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 16:33:13 -0700
Subject: Explosives found at Greyhound bus terminal: cube law
Message-ID: <3BD0B838.A44B84F2@senate.gov>


At 05:27 PM 10/19/01 -0400, Greg Newby wrote:
>How much damage could about 6 ounces of C4 do?
>

What do you want to do?

[1] Breach a wall: P=R^3KC
P=pounds TNT
R=breaching radius in feet, rounded to next higher 1/2 ft
K=material factor -earth is 0.05, weaker construction 0.25,
 reinforced concrete 0.70 if under 3 feet

C-4 (typ. 90% RDX) is about 1.3 x as effective as TNT.

Detonating cord has about 50 grn/ft PETN.

[1] FM-25, Dept of the Army, May 1967

Modulo (nonexistant) tamping.

Lots of fragments, though.




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Fri Oct 19 16:41:28 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 16:41:28 -0700
Subject: Inflation
Message-ID: <3BD0BA28.627BD483@lsil.com>


Greg Broiles  wrote :
>At 03:13 PM 10/19/2001 -0700, Karsten M. Self wrote:
>
>>/me retreats to iron w/ thermometer.
>>
>>Black and Decker "Light 'n' Easy" iron, cotton dishtowl (folded quarto),
>>"Good Cook" dial thermometer inserted under top fold.  With four
>>minutes' preheat, temperature is off the scale (2200F), extrapolating,
>>it looks to be 2700-2800F.  After about two minutes, there's a slight
>>yellowing of the dishtowel.
>
>Is it possible you're off by a factor of 10 here? I am very skeptical that 
>you have an iron which heats up to 2200 or 2700 degrees Fahrenheit. I would 
>expect a little more than a slight yellowing of the dish towel at those 
>temperatures, unless you have asbestos dish towels you use along with your 
>superheated iron.
>
>
>--
>Greg Broiles
>gbroiles at well.com
>"We have found and closed the thing you watch us with." -- New Delhi street kids
>
Kind of like using one of those ugly red lab hot air guns to dry your
hair, eh?

Definitely an honest mistake. 

Unlike the numbers quoted for available doses of smallpox vaccine which
have risen steadily from 3M to 10M as time has passed. Standing in line
for vaccination - would you like yours straight up or with soda. They
prosecute people for diluting pharmaceuticals don't they? 

Numbers bloat not quite as outrageous as the US casualty estimates that
were part of the decision making process for whether to invade Japan or
drop Uranium on it which started out as 10K and reached 1M by the time
public statements were issued.

Bye, I have to drive 300 miles home now, or is that 3000 miles? and
there are over a gazillion cars on the road.

10^53768904523 Regards,
m




From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Fri Oct 19 17:11:46 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 17:11:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Criticize Israel - Get Fired
In-Reply-To: <46ebb6273c75f910298c46fd3764d02b@dizum.com> from "Nomen
  Nescio" at Oct 20, 2001 01:50:17 AM
Message-ID: <200110200011.f9K0Bk427288@artifact.psychedelic.net>


Nomen the Nitwit wrote:

> Hey fag boy, we know why you love them ragheads -- a-rabs being known
> for a preference for buttfucking each other and especially them sweet
> young boys.

This isn't about fondness for Arabs, nor about discriminating against
people because of their choice of religion.

It's about behavior.  Israel's destruction has been earned many times over
by Israel's behavior.

There are no civilians in Israel.  Not even the babies.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Fri Oct 19 17:27:26 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 17:27:26 -0700
Subject: Inflation
In-Reply-To: <3BD0BA28.627BD483@lsil.com>; from mmotyka@lsil.com on Fri,
  Oct 19, 2001 at 04:41:28PM -0700
References: <3BD0BA28.627BD483@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <20011019172726.A21297@navel.introspect>


on Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 04:41:28PM -0700, mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
wrote:
> Greg Broiles  wrote :
> >At 03:13 PM 10/19/2001 -0700, Karsten M. Self wrote:
> >
> >>/me retreats to iron w/ thermometer.
> >>
> >>Black and Decker "Light 'n' Easy" iron, cotton dishtowl (folded quarto),
> >>"Good Cook" dial thermometer inserted under top fold.  With four
> >>minutes' preheat, temperature is off the scale (2200F), extrapolating,
> >>it looks to be 2700-2800F.  After about two minutes, there's a slight
> >>yellowing of the dishtowel.
> >
> >Is it possible you're off by a factor of 10 here? I am very skeptical that
> >you have an iron which heats up to 2200 or 2700 degrees Fahrenheit. I would
> >expect a little more than a slight yellowing of the dish towel at those
> >temperatures, unless you have asbestos dish towels you use along with your
> >superheated iron.
> >
> >
> >--
> >Greg Broiles
> >gbroiles at well.com
> >"We have found and closed the thing you watch us with." -- New Delhi street
kids
> >
> Kind of like using one of those ugly red lab hot air guns to dry your
> hair, eh?
>
> Definitely an honest mistake.

As previously posted, an iso-8859-1 to ASCII encoding error.  The degree
symbol was converted to a zero.  Divide values by 10.

Peace.

--
Karsten M. Self        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?             Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]




From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu  Fri Oct 19 14:27:43 2001
From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 17:27:43 -0400
Subject: Explosives found at Greyhound bus terminal
In-Reply-To: <3BD09928.43D4EC66@ssz.com>
References: <3BD09928.43D4EC66@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20011019172743.C24596@ils.unc.edu>


On Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 04:20:40PM -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> http://www.nbc10.com/cgi-bin/gx.cgi/AppLogic+FTContentServer?pagename=FutureTense/Apps/Xcelerate/View&c=NBCArticle&cid=NBCJ2DVGXSC&p=NBCK9JZRB8C&live=true

>From the story (which is only about 5 paragraphs):

--
PHILADELPHIA - Philadelphia Bomb Squad says the lack of a detonator
cap prevented the military explosive found Friday from destroying a
Greyhound bus terminal.

The suitcase containing a third of a pound of C-Four explosive and a
thousand feet of detonator cord was placed in a bus station locker on
September 29th. Since it was unclaimed, a bus station employee opened
it today in order to give any clothing inside to charity. Police were
called after the worker discovered a putty-like material.
--


How much damage could about 6 ounces of C4 do?

For the interested, here's a great recipe for composition 4
explosives: http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/tech/c4.html

  -- Greg




From schear at lvcm.com  Fri Oct 19 17:35:53 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 17:35:53 -0700
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: <00e601c158e4$70b40bc0$01000001@PATRICK>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011019162608.038b25a0@pop3.lvcm.com>


At 05:24 PM 10/19/2001 -0400, someone wrote:
>Retribution will satisfy our need for justice, but it won't make us safer 
>from terrorism.
>
>The terrorists have told us why they attacked America.  There are three 
>reasons.  Hint: it's not because we're wealthy and good.

If you read the CP archives a bit you'll see I am not clueless in this 
regard (e.g., the "America need therapy" thread)  I fear the maxim "Pride 
goeth before the fall" may well be nailed to our country's headstone.

>
>We have failed to heed George Washington's advice to avoid entangling 
>foreign alliances.  We will only be safer if we heed his advice.

The direction of all recent administrations has been to expand 
globalization (i.e., interdependency) thus increasing economic risks and 
narrowing diplomatic choices.  In the short term, and we have no idea what 
the long term consequences will be, globalization as its now practiced has 
is some ways behaved similarly to welfare state income redistribution, 
creating dependencies, poverty and resentment.

>
>Thanks for the link to the funny song, though.

Da nada




From schear at lvcm.com  Fri Oct 19 17:40:03 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 17:40:03 -0700
Subject: U.S. Government Shouldn't Insure Airlines 
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011019173906.038a86b0@pop3.lvcm.com>


U.S. Government Shouldn't Insure Airlines
Penelope Patsuris, Forbes.com, 10.19.01, 9:00 AM ET

NEW YORK - When government interferes with private markets, unintended and 
undesirable consequences always result.

http://www.forbes.com/2001/10/19/1019airinsurance.html




From tbr at synthesia.cz  Fri Oct 19 18:14:08 2001
From: tbr at synthesia.cz (Tabla bin Rasa)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 18:14:08 -0700
Subject: Zen Terrorism
Message-ID: <3BD0CFE0.FD088EEF@synthesia.cz>


Zen Terrorism: sending random letters which say, "No anthrax here.
Have a nice day."




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Fri Oct 19 16:39:29 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 18:39:29 -0500
Subject: Slashdot | Desktop Biodetectors
Message-ID: <3BD0B9B1.292B459@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/science/01/10/19/2230210.shtml
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Fri Oct 19 15:39:59 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 18:39:59 -0400
Subject: Looking for news
References: <3BD0A8D7.F9640E51@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <3BD0ABBF.8607BB13@acmenet.net>


mmotyka at lsil.com wrote:
> 
> Was I hearing things or did China stop issuing visas for people from 22
> middle eastern countries? Thought I heard it, can't find it.

ISTR the same, but didn't pay much attention.

Searching CNN for "china visa" shows an article from 10 Oct, only
relating to Pakistanis in Hong Kong.

Nothing worthwhile on MSNBC, same search.

Sounds like someone was blowing smoke out his ass.


-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Fri Oct 19 10:51:46 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 18:51:46 +0100
Subject: Expert Warns Coded Pictures Indicate Al Qaeda Planning
  Major BiologicalAttack
References: <200110181940.f9IJeL013812@mailserver1.hushmail.com>
  <20011018210815.4302.qmail@sidereal.kz>
Message-ID: <3BD06832.5A485C2F@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


"Dr. Evil" wrote:
> 
> Fascinating website.  This may sound disturbing, but I must say, this
> terrorist was a pretty good painter if these really are his paintings.

Agreed.

I would be really, really impressed if Koontz had said all this *before*
the event. Afterwards? I hope he never publishes his theories on the
words of Bob Dylan.

> Mr. Koontz made some good points about the biological attack, but his
> thesis is predicated on the idea of yellow meaning sickness, and I'm
> not sure if it all ties together.  For instance, one of the paintings
> clearly shows an Arabian horse struggling uphill into a field of
> yellow.  Yellow in this case looks like peace or salvation.  He also
> didn't pick up the image of a horse running up the rock being a
> reference to how Mohamed went to heaven, so there may be some other
> interpretations of these images.

Some hundreds of interpretations I guess. The world is full of art
historians and critics and cultural studies folk who can generate them
for as long as you like. We have a whole department of Art Historians
here at this very university. I bet they could find terrorist messages
in just about any painting you cared to mention, if you bought them
enough drinks.



Ken Brown




From info at giganetstore.com  Fri Oct 19 10:52:43 2001
From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 18:52:43 +0100
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Gigaloja.TV_=3F_Veja_voc=EA_!?=
Message-ID: <04e0943521713a1WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com>

Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site
http:\\www.giganetstore.com  , ir à edição
do seu registo e retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das nossas
promoções e novos serviços
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From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Fri Oct 19 16:55:25 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 18:55:25 -0500
Subject: China - China adjusts visa policy, denies restricting ticket sales
Message-ID: <3BD0BD6D.D4F1D9B3@ssz.com>


http://sg.biz.yahoo.com/011018/46/1kqet.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Fri Oct 19 16:57:51 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 18:57:51 -0500
Subject: China curbs airline ticket sales to Muslim countries
Message-ID: <3BD0BDFF.DA894377@ssz.com>


http://sg.news.yahoo.com/011013/3/1kdnu.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From info at prideofamerica.net  Fri Oct 19 20:16:10 2001
From: info at prideofamerica.net (Pride of America)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 19:16:10 -0800
Subject: Free American Flag Pin
Message-ID: <200110200216.TAA23726@toad.com>

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From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Fri Oct 19 17:19:39 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 19:19:39 -0500
Subject: Steve Jackson Games Daily Illuminator: The Best Defense Is Not To Have Any Enemies
Message-ID: <3BD0C31B.CF92C9C@ssz.com>


http://www.sjgames.com/ill/
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From sandra at eccomi.com  Fri Oct 19 10:46:38 2001
From: sandra at eccomi.com (sandra at eccomi.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 19:46:38 +0200
Subject: da Sonia
Message-ID: <18161.237183.82029942 cypherpunks@toad.com>


Qualcosa di diverso qui
http://www.caribepoint.com/allsex/




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Fri Oct 19 11:56:10 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 19:56:10 +0100
Subject: Expert Warns Coded Pictures Indicate Al Qaeda Planning
  Major  Biological Attack
References: <200110181940.f9IJeL013812@mailserver1.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: <3BD0774A.5F01F560@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Maybe the CIA will now open an Art Historical and Symbolical Branch to
examine the works of artists for evidence of dangerous thoughts.

GK Chesterton got it right back in 1908:

"The work of the philosophical policeman," replied the man in blue, "is
at once bolder and more subtle than that of the ordinary detective. The
ordinary detective goes to pot-houses to arrest thieves; we go to
artistic tea-parties to detect pessimists. The ordinary detective
discovers from a ledger or a diary that a crime has been committed. We
discover from a book of sonnets that a crime will be committed. We have
to trace the origin of those dreadful thoughts that drive men on at last
to intellectual fanaticism and intellectual crime. We were only just in
time to prevent the assassination at Hartlepool, and that was entirely
due to the fact that our Mr. Wilks (a smart young fellow) thoroughly
understood a triolet."

(From The Man who was Thursday, chapter 4, copied from Christian
Classics Ethereal Library at
http://biblestudy.churches.net/CCEL/C/CHESTERT/THURSDAY/THURSDAY.TXT)

The website at http://huizen.dds.nl/~wandm/paint2.html claims that the
drawings were made between 1983 and 1989.  There are signatures and
dates visible on the pictures. Even the Koontz article claims that they
have existed at least since 1998. If this is true they can hardly have
been a signal to the hijackers to go into action.  At the most, evidence
of the artist's state of mind.


Ken Brown




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Fri Oct 19 18:04:23 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 20:04:23 -0500
Subject: Slashdot | SSSCA Hearing October 25th: Free Software Threatened
Message-ID: <3BD0CD97.BF70A870@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/yro/01/10/19/1954207.shtml
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From Jon.Beets at pacer.com  Fri Oct 19 18:23:27 2001
From: Jon.Beets at pacer.com (Jon Beets)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 20:23:27 -0500
Subject: Expert Warns Coded Pictures Indicate Al Qaeda Planning
  Major  Biological Attack
References: <200110181940.f9IJeL013812@mailserver1.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: <008d01c15905$d21cb5d0$03d36b3f@pacer.com>


I disagree on a few of his interpretations.. I actually see 3 smoking towers
when he claims only two and that they represent the WTC towers.. He then
also claims one of the images represents the pentagon but I don't see
anything there that does.. However I do see bldgs that represent other
government facilties. The man on the horse does not really resemble a pilot
at all to me nor do I believe that the painter meant it to be.. I do believe
the painting depicts america and the smoke stacks representing either
industry or just maybe even our image as the great polluter.

These items, among others in his article, gives me great doubt that the
entire piece has any real merit at all..

Jon Beets

Get the latest scoop on CoS
http://www.lisatrust.net
http://www.xenutv.com
http://www.xenu.net
http://www.holysmoke.org

Or try these mirrors
http://lisatrust.pacer.com
http://xenutv.pacer.com
http://holysmoke.pacer.com

----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 2:40 PM
Subject: Expert Warns Coded Pictures Indicate Al Qaeda Planning Major
Biological Attack


> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> http://ebird.dtic.mil/Oct2001/s20011018expertwarns.htm
>
> DefenseWatch (SFTT.org)
> October 17, 2001
>
> Expert Warns Al Qaeda Planning Major Biological Attack
>
> By Ed Offley
>
> It is becoming clearer by the day that a month after the Sept. 11 aircraft
> hijackings, a biological warfare attack is being launched against the
United
> States by as-yet unknown terrorists. The discovery of anthrax in letters
mailed
> to the office of Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle, NBC and ABC,
following an
> initial exposure at American Media International in Florida, betrays a
cunning
> and carefully organized intent-- particularly with the discovery that the
> anthrax mailed to Daschles office has been found to be "weapons grade"
> material that could indeed kill hundreds if not thousands of people if
released
> in a significant airborne plume.
>
> Is this new phase terrorism merely a crude and ineffective ploy, or the
> harbinger of even more serious danger to the nation? Nuclear physicist
Robert
> Koontz, who has researched and tracked the al Qaeda terrorist network for
> several years, is warning that he has discovered evidence on the Internet
that
> Osama bin Laden may be planning a much larger biological warfare
campaign--
> using more than one form of germ agent-- and is using "coded"
illustrations to
> signal and direct additional sleeper agents purportedly already armed with
> biological weapons.
>
> Dr. Koontz has posted the coded paintings and other evidence at the
following
> website:
>
> http://www.bringmenews.com/Messages/National_Security/Alerts/Alert_003.htm
>
> Dr. Koontz revealed this disturbing information in an interview with
> DefenseWatch, on Tuesday after what he described as a frustrating
inability to
> persuade federal officials to take the information seriously. The
interview
> transcript is reproduced in full below.
>
> Interview with Dr. Robert Koontz
>
> DefenseWatch: How did you first become aware of the art?
>
> Let me begin by saying that I was following cyber-tracks of Ahmed
Alghamdi, one
> of the lesser known terrorists aboard flight No. 175 that crashed into the
> South Tower of the World Trade Center.
>
> In doing this detective work, I came across Alghamdis name posted on a
fan
> club that was started by a Bahraini pilot. So, I found the name Ahmed
Alghamdi,
> I found an e-mail address for Alghamdi, and I found the names and web
sites of
> numerous other people, many of whom had names of Middle Eastern origin.
But
> that in itself was not surprising given that the web site is a fan club
for a
> Middle Eastern singer.
>
> Nevertheless, my initial (intuitive) reaction was that I might have come
across
> an al Qaeda communications node, and I now know that to be at least partly
true.
> Having decided that I might have come across an al Qaeda communications
node, I
> began looking at the web sites of all those who had posted their URLs on
the
> fan club web site. After carefully looking at a few of the posted web
sites, I
> noted that a man by the name of Muzaffar Wandawi identified himself as an
Iraqi
> living in Amsterdam. The fact that he stated that he is an Iraqi drew my
> immediate attention, for it is well known that there is possible Iraqi
> involvement in the terrorist attack of Sept. 11. But that was not taken to
be
> anything more than circumstantial.
>
> DefenseWatch: Please describe how you became suspicious that the images
> themselves might be the messages/instructions.
>
> When examining this mans art, I found it to be disturbing, but I did not
at
> first think that it was suspicious--until I came upon the picture
> labeled "Downfall." In that picture, Wandawi clearly showed two towers
burning,
> and there appeared to be a picture of the smoking Pentagon just to the
right of
> that image. Then there was a man riding on what appeared to be an Arabian
> horse, and the man appeared to be dressed like a pilot, without his jacket
on.
> The haircut of the rider of the horse was also in the manner of a pilot.
The
> painting was dated 1988, which seemed to be rather early. But I have since
> concluded that the painting might have been done in 1998.
>
> In all events, I grew very suspicious of what I saw, for it is essentially
> impossible for someone to create such a constellation of images of a
terrorist
> event in the future-- without having intimate knowledge of the attack
plans. Then I set about filtering the data and came across an image of the
White House
> that was buried under some mild clouding. Next, with the filtering, I
could see that the burning tower actually represented a large building that
was
> burning in almost exactly the way that the buildings burned at the World
Trade
> Center. At this time I was convinced that the artist was an Iraqi
intelligence
> agent or an agent of al Qaeda.
>
> Later, I discovered more images that were clearly targeting information of
a
> specific nature. I have not published those yet; an expert in this type of
> cryptography is working on the problem at this very time.
>
> DefenseWatch: One of the illustrations shows Osama bin Laden next to a
cartoon
> character from Sesame Street. What significance does that image have?
>
> The Sesame Street character that has appeared in a huge poster with Osama
bin
> Laden is significant in that it is yellow and has a mask-like quality. And
one
> can be certain that it was not placed on that huge poster by accident, as
some people have stupidly suggested. It is a signal.
>
> Since it is my assertion that the al Qaeda group is using yellow as a
symbol in
> association with biological weapons, which it has done elsewhere, I
conclude
> that the yellow Sesame Street character in the poster represents a signal
that
> relates to biological weapons. And, as one can clearly see, we are under a
> biological attack at this very moment. But it is my opinion that the
biological
> attack that is happening now is "baby stuff."
>
> DefenseWatch: What federal authorities or agencies have you attempted to
> contact to warn of the potential threat from the art? Please describe the
> reaction or lack of reaction to date. Do other private experts share your
> assessment or is there disagreement?
>
> I have attempted to communicate to the FBI on two occasions, sending
e-mail to
> four of their offices. There has been no reply, even though I am warning
that
> al Qaeda is planning an apocalyptic germ warfare attack.
>
> I am waiting to hear from other experts.
>
> DefenseWatch: How widespread is public awareness of this?
>
> I have principally limited this information to Col. David Hackworth and
certain
> other trusted individuals. But I am beginning to release information to
members
> of the news media, by virtue of the fact that I feel that the FBI is not
going
> to take this seriously. It took them seven days to understand that we are
under
> an anthrax attack. And about 8,000 FBI computers are more than eight years
old. Not every FBI office can even surf the Web. They are in the Dark Ages.
>
>
> Regarding the certainty of the information, I can say with 100 percent
> certainty that Muzaffar Wandawi had prior knowledge of the terrorist
attack on
> Sept. 11, and I can say with 100 percent certainty that he is intimately
> involved with other planned acts of terrorism against the United States.
These
> include a planned attack on one of the most vital communications centers
that
> America has; an attack on the Main Building of the National Security
Agency [at
> Fort Meade, Md.]--inside of which is situated a communications center that
> handles everything from presidential orders relating to use of nuclear
weapons to some CIA and State Department traffic. It appears that perhaps 12
private
> planes would attack the NSA main building when a certain signal is given.
I
> know what that signal is, and I know what conditions of defense alert we
will
> be in when the signal is given.
>
> Let me conclude by saying that the evidence I have posted at my web site
indicates that al Qaeda  in association with Iraqi intelligence  plans a
biological attack that they hope will kill millions. I assume that this will
occur with the use of exotic diseases, such as Ebola, but also smallpox and
everything one could possibly find in a Russian bacteriological warfare
laboratory. The information that I have indicates that the Russian mafia has
sold these kind of bacteriological materials to bin Laden.
>
> So, just as there was a group of 19 hijackers on Sept. 11, I assert that
there is a group of maybe 20 germ warfare agents who will release the
aforementioned types of diseases in the very near future, hoping to create
epidemics that will kill millions. That is what the encrypted images at
Wandawis web site suggest to me.
>
> I urge that people go to the web page where I have placed this evidence
and
> examine the materials for themselves. The URL is:
>
> http://www.bringmenews.com/Messages/National_Security/Alerts/Alert_003.htm
>
> People would also be well advised to visit my national security message
board
> that now has about 350 important postings. You can get to the message
board through the following URL: http://www.BringMeNews.com/
>
> Robert Koontz is an experimental nuclear physicist who earned his Ph.D. in
1980
> at the University of Maryland. His specialties are experimental nuclear
> physics and high-energy physics, but he is also an expert in certain areas
of
> electronics, computer systems, software development and matters relating
to
> electronic intelligence gathering. Koontz has been a Staff Scientist at
the
> Department of Energys Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory, a Professor of
Physics at
> the University of South Dakota, and formerly was an instructor at the
National
> Security Agency.He lives in Pennsylvania.
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: Hush 2.0
>
> wl8EARECAB8FAjvPMD4YHGF1dG8zMDEwOTRAaHVzaG1haWwuY29tAAoJEKadvsVlUK4P
> L1AAnii1BHJp90MEFifqydwuoJ5XDq+5AJsGyUK7XEj8VAdSEsXgpz2xrDFJCg==
> =R2b7
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From fogstorm at mac.com  Fri Oct 19 20:25:05 2001
From: fogstorm at mac.com (FogStorm)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 20:25:05 -0700
Subject: AG on spotting terrorists in our midst
In-Reply-To: <3BD078F2.C5AB002A@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <200110200324.f9K3OuV06346@smtpout.mac.com>


On Friday, October 19, 2001, at 12:03  PM, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote:

> http://www.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/conditions/10/18/ashcroft.tips/index.html
>
> 4. Someone who appears to be concealing something
>    or attempting to put something over on somebody
>
> Does this mean that witholding your zipcode from the overinquisitive
> sales clerk will get you on a list?
>
> Any attempts at opacity will be punished!
>
> Sounds pretty fucking stupid, but then, what do you expect from the guy?

I used to live in a neighborhood where at least 20% of males between 
15 & 30 of people would meet most of these conditions. Left unstated is:

8. Watch for people meeting any of the above conditions and who appear 
to be from the Middle East or who may be a Muslim.




From measl at mfn.org  Fri Oct 19 18:43:53 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 20:43:53 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Assasinating larry
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011018193707.00a20610@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: 



Did you take your meds today?


On Thu, 18 Oct 2001, mattd wrote:

> Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 19:42:46 +1000
> From: mattd 
> Reply-To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> To: cypherpunks at lne.com
> Subject: CDR: Assasinating larry
> 
> www.indymedia.org  today proffr1 is clearly the victorian police...  Larry 
> Ellison Will Die (english)
> by Reg 10:59pm Wed Oct 17 '01
> 
> 
> 
> I have an idea that I don't have the resources to put into place. Feel free 
> to pick it up if you do.
> 
> It is a website called www.lewd.org Larry Ellison Will Die.
> 
> It is a dead pool website where people can place bets on when Larry Ellison 
> will die. This not advocating his death. It is not threatening him. It is 
> not Larry Ellison Must Die. After all, we all will die and so will Larry 
> Ellison.
> 
> So why don't we track his movements and wait for him to die. It could be a 
> heart attack on the golf course. Maybe he gets swept away to sea on a 
> yacht. Perhaps a CIA or FBI agent sees an opportunity to cash in and has 
> him offed.
> 
> Feel free to take it and run with it. Copyleft.
> 
> 
> Hasnt silly con valley been 'dusted'yet? (english)
> by proffr1 at etc 11:03pm Wed Oct 17 '01
> 
> 
> 
> Operation softdrill has nominated larry and scott mc mealy mouthed for 
> infinite justice.Evil is patient.
> 
> Pork futures dictate that this message may not be kosher.
> The threat to your liberties is verifiable.
> the threat is real.
> 
> 

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From signup1 at ecommercechargecards.com  Fri Oct 19 20:53:23 2001
From: signup1 at ecommercechargecards.com (signup1 at ecommercechargecards.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 20:53:23
Subject: ADV:CREDIT CARD PROCESSING
Message-ID: <203.313852.106054@unknown>



 **********************************************************
To be removed from further mailings please respond to this 
email with "remove" in the subject line.
**********************************************************

Dear Friend,

Discover how you can accept credit cards directly from your 
website without ever having to purchase or lease expensive 
credit card equipment. If you are interested in learning
more please click on the link below. INSTANT ACCOUNT SET-UPS,
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If you prefer you can respond to this email@

mailto:signup at ecommercechargecards.com

Please include NAME, PHONE# and best time to call.



IBS/PBS
7657 Winnetka
Canoga Park Ca.




From signup1 at ecommercechargecards.com  Fri Oct 19 20:53:25 2001
From: signup1 at ecommercechargecards.com (signup1 at ecommercechargecards.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 20:53:25
Subject: ADV:CREDIT CARD PROCESSING
Message-ID: <319.292379.609616@unknown>



 **********************************************************
To be removed from further mailings please respond to this 
email with "remove" in the subject line.
**********************************************************

Dear Friend,

Discover how you can accept credit cards directly from your 
website without ever having to purchase or lease expensive 
credit card equipment. If you are interested in learning
more please click on the link below. INSTANT ACCOUNT SET-UPS,
LOWEST RATES AND COMPLETE SHOPPINGCART SOLUTIONS AVAILABLE!

http://www.webmktplace.com 

Feel free to call us @ 1.800.288.7363

If you prefer you can respond to this email@

mailto:signup at ecommercechargecards.com

Please include NAME, PHONE# and best time to call.



IBS/PBS
7657 Winnetka
Canoga Park Ca.




From measl at mfn.org  Fri Oct 19 19:17:22 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 21:17:22 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Your papers please
In-Reply-To: <0C8BFF9C-C45F-11D5-8249-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: 



On Fri, 19 Oct 2001, Tim May wrote:

> Personally, I doubt your story. Someone who does what you say was done 
> to you has clearly earned killing.

While I agree with your assessment that he has "earned killing", I do not
see how my failure to kill him earns doubt - one does not necessarily
follow the other (in the real world anyway - the "ideal" world is
something completely different).

I did not, and likely will never have the opportunity to kill the bastard.  
Nevertheless, this was a very radicalizing event in my life, and was the
foundation upon which many of my future "incidents" were based.  In a way,
the guy did me a favor: he permanently opened my eyes to the Real World.

His reward, and society's reward, is that I am now a fervently
anti-government/anti-LEO prick, who will never again work within the
system (or for that matter, do anything to assist it in any way, shape, or
form).  

I firmly believe that he and his ilk will get the killing they so richly
deserve when enough people finally wake up and form a [political] critical
mass.  Until then, I choose not to take the lone-gunman approach - yes, I
am a pussy :-(

> --Tim May

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From measl at mfn.org  Fri Oct 19 20:14:16 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 22:14:16 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Who represents the detained? Nobody...
In-Reply-To: <3BCF0D4E.FB1A668A@acm.org>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 18 Oct 2001, Optimizzin Al-gorithm wrote:

> Everyone seems to have forgotten about NYPD's fondness for plungers
> up the butt, or perforating immigrants offering their wallet.
> 
> Maybe a building falling on them was Infinite Justice.

No, it was very limited justice: the towers missed the vast majority of
the cocksuckers in blue.

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From proff at iq.org  Fri Oct 19 06:39:41 2001
From: proff at iq.org (Julian Assange)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 23:39:41 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Stu Baker on CALEA and the Net
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011018171714.036c5a40@bivens.parrhesia.com>
Message-ID: <20011019133941.D4E2625A0B@suburbia.net>


> >Stu is a well known NSA zealot.
> 
> Have you actually spoken with him, or are you just working from press reports?
> 
> Lots of things are "well known" and wrong, too.

It's wise understand someone's agenda based on their past actions
and attempts at influence and not the affability of their face.

--
 Julian Assange        |If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people
                       |together to collect wood or assign them tasks and
 proff at iq.org          |work, but rather teach them to long for the endless
 proff at gnu.ai.mit.edu  |immensity of the sea. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery




From wolf at priori.net  Fri Oct 19 23:59:10 2001
From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 23:59:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: What info does Zero Knowledge collect on users of Freedom
  3.0?
In-Reply-To: <20011019015011.A29487@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: 


On 19 Oct 2001, Declan McCullagh quoted a non-so-Anonymous source:

> 	And, of course, there's the fact that Freedom notifies everyone
> between my computer and zeroknowledge.com that I'm using freedom.  Which,
> of course, is covered by the Pen trace and trap warrants, and is collected
> by carnivore.  Now I'm telling my ISP and the world what my IP is, what
> my platform is, and that I use Freedom.
>
> 	How, again, is this not tracking me?

I suppose that my question, (assuming what Anonymous described is the
actual behavior of Freedom 3.0), would now be: "who cares?" What is left
in the Freedom product that this would matter?

Your ISP and the world are not likely to care that you're using an
glorified cookie-manager, and it's my impression that that is what Freedom
has now become.

However, for the sake of clarity, it would indeed be nice to know what
the information those HTTP requests actually means, and for what purpose
it is being generated.

Also, are there any threats created by such information leakage? How could
Freedom 3.0 users be harmed by this?

(If the same behavior was present in Freedom 2.0, I can imagine some more
obvious immediate threats. If what Dov says is true, it's remarkable that
ZKS hadn't been called on this previously. But now that Freedom is no
longer an anonymity service, what are the concerns?)


-MW-




From wolf at priori.net  Sat Oct 20 00:12:02 2001
From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 00:12:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Expert Warns Coded Pictures Indicate Al Qaeda Planning 
  Major  Biological Attack
In-Reply-To: <3BD0774A.5F01F560@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: 


On Fri, 19 Oct 2001, Ken Brown wrote:

> The website at http://huizen.dds.nl/~wandm/paint2.html claims that the
> drawings were made between 1983 and 1989.  There are signatures and
> dates visible on the pictures. Even the Koontz article claims that they
> have existed at least since 1998. If this is true they can hardly have
> been a signal to the hijackers to go into action.  At the most, evidence
> of the artist's state of mind.

Muzaffar Wandawi's home page is at http://people.a2000.nl/mwandawi/ and
his email address is wandm at dds.nl.

Hmm. I might hire him as a web designer some day.

Anyone else think he's got a good shot at a libel suit against "Dr. Robert
W.  Koontz" for his "Conclusion #1"?

"1) Muzaffar Wandawi was involved in the attacks on the World Trade
centers, and it appears he uses his drawings and paintings to encode
orders to terrorists, including al Qaeda."

http://www.bringmenews.com/Messages/National_Security/Alerts/Alert_003.htm


-MW-




From measl at mfn.org  Fri Oct 19 22:20:02 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 00:20:02 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: http://www.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/conditions/10/20/anthrax/
Message-ID: 



"Northwest Airlines has banned sugar substitutes and non-dairy creamers
from its airplanes to avoid anthrax scares sparked by the white, powdery
substances."

ROTFLOL! 

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From reeza at hawaii.rr.com  Sat Oct 20 03:30:58 2001
From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 00:30:58 -1000
Subject: Another precious moment from shrub...
In-Reply-To: <3BD0D8A9.21458.413B0@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011018120159.0265eec8@10.0.0.2>
 <3BC50443.18636.3A5DA4@localhost>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011020002925.03e362d0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com>


At 01:51 AM 10/20/01 -0700, jamesd at echeque.com wrote:

 >In Africa two Soviet sponsored tyrannies, both of which had been committing
 >mass murder on an enormous scale, were overthrown though not replaced by
 >democracies.

Do these two former-Soviet/current-? have names?

 >In Latin America one Soviet sponsored tyranny was overthrown, and replaced
 >by democracy,

Name?

 >and several regimes that had been fighting wars against Soviet
 >proxy troops supported by Cuba won victories, making it possible for them to
 >become democracies.

Names?




From adam at cypherspace.org  Fri Oct 19 16:41:27 2001
From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 00:41:27 +0100
Subject: What info does Zero Knowledge collect on users of Freedom
  3.0?
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20011019023123.0211dd90@mail.well.com>; from
  declan@well.com on Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 02:36:00AM -0700
References: <20011019015011.A29487@cluebot.com>
  
  <5.0.2.1.0.20011019023123.0211dd90@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <20011020004127.A6999440@exeter.ac.uk>


Let me try give some more details behind this.  The idea was to create
separate modules that can be separately shipped and sold.  Freedom 3.0
"privacy & security tools" is the first of those.  It has a subset of
the functions in freedom 2.2 (cookie management etc), but some of
those functions have new features or have been improved.

Declan's interivew with Austin and Ian's comments on slashdot and here
cover the aspect of the story that the current freedom network which
was the support infrastructure behind the anonymous browsing and mail
part of Freedom 2.2 was decomissioned.

Other consumer software related plans are not public.

Adam

On Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 02:36:00AM -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> They're pulling the plug on the Freedom anon-network. They're now
> using the name Freedom 3.0 to refer to a different, new product that
> does stuff like cookie blocking.
>
> -Declan
> 
> At 11:18 PM 10/18/01 -0700, John Kozubik wrote:
> >Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this a moot point ?  I was under the
> >impression that ZKS was going to pull the plug sometime in the very near
> >future.




From nobody at dizum.com  Fri Oct 19 16:50:17 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 01:50:17 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Critize Israel - Get Fired
Message-ID: <46ebb6273c75f910298c46fd3764d02b@dizum.com>


Eric lisped:
> Tel Aviv needs a thermonuclear enema.

  Hey fag boy, we know why you love them ragheads -- a-rabs being known for a 
preference for buttfucking each other and especially them sweet young boys. 




From jamesd at echeque.com  Sat Oct 20 01:51:37 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 01:51:37 -0700
Subject: Another precious moment from shrub...
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011018120159.0265eec8@10.0.0.2>
References: <3BC50443.18636.3A5DA4@localhost>
Message-ID: <3BD0D8A9.21458.413B0@localhost>


    --
James A. Donald:
> >During that term all these war efforts collapsed, or
> >diminished to a pale shadow of their former selves, making
> >democratic elections possible, elections that for the most
> >part returned governments far more capitalist than the
> >previous regimes.

On 18 Oct 2001, at 14:08, Jamie Lawrence wrote:
> Now that I reflect on it, I am positive that the free voting, free
> dealing citizens who democratically elected Perves Musharraf,
> Robert Mugabe, Kim Jong-Il and Mullah Omar

In Africa two Soviet sponsored tyrannies, both of which had been committing mass murder on an enormous scale, were overthrown though not replaced by democracies.

In Latin America one Soviet sponsored tyranny was overthrown, and replaced by democracy, and several regimes that had been fighting wars against Soviet proxy troops supported by Cuba won victories, making it possible for them to become democracies.


    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     AGINX9oTMyKQsGjIxR8wxjhvRwgpxk9Zv/nJChti
     4f+LPxl1uo4p5clUU/5ivss6GKI9WSXlZtBnp7c9f




From info at rin.ru  Fri Oct 19 15:00:00 2001
From: info at rin.ru (  C)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 02:00 +0400
Subject:   C
Message-ID: <200110192200.f9JM0m908941@ns.greenline>

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From verba at rol.it  Fri Oct 19 19:17:04 2001
From: verba at rol.it (verba at rol.it)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 04:17:04 +0200
Subject: Verba Volant del 19-10-01
Message-ID: <1003551425@web2bk.logos.it>


Verba Volant del 19-10-01,
Every day a new quotation translated into many languages. 

Logos Translations - www.logostranslations.com 
_________________

Quotation of the day:
Author - 

English - to find happiness, one should not seek it
Italian - per trovare la felicit� non bisogna cercarla
Spanish - para hallar la felicidad es necesario no buscarla
French - la meilleure fa�on de trouver le bonheur est de ne pas le chercher
Portuguese - para encontrar a felicidade, basta que n�o a procuremos
Brazilian Portuguese - para encontrar a felicidade, n�o � necess�rio procur�-la
German - Gl�ck findet nur, wer nicht danach sucht
Hungarian - ahhoz, hogy megtal�ljuk a boldogs�got, nem kell azt keresn�nk
Finnish - onnen voi l�yt�� kun ei etsi sit�
Catalan - per trobar la felicitat no �s necessari buscarla
Croatian - sreca se nalazi kada se ne tra�i
Dutch - om het geluk te vinden, moet je het niet zoeken
Emiliano-Romagnolo - sa vuless ciaper la goduria, fe' ad zercherla par gnint
Latin - ut beatitudo inveniatur requirenda non est
Latvian; Lettish - lai laimi iegutu, ta nav jamekle
Polish - aby znalezc szczescie nie trzeba go szukac
Romanian - pentru a gasi fericirea nu este necesar s-o cauti
Slovak - aby si na�iel �tastie, netreba ho hladat
Venetian - par catare la felissit�, bisogna darse la briga de sercarla
Sicilian - pi truvari 'a filicit� unu non ll'avi a circari
Flemish - om het geluk te vinden, moet je het niet zoeken
Ferrarese - par truvar la felizit� an gh� brisa da zarcarla
Bolognese - par cat�r la felizit�, an bis�ggna br�sa zarch�rla 

_________________

All languages, please click on this link
http://www.rol.it/owa-k/press.frasiproc.carica?code=420
_________________

To unsubscribe from Verba Volant, please follow this link:
http://www.rol.it/owa-k/press.rol_ml.verbavolant 

and write in the empty field next to unsubscribe the email address that you find after "TO:" in the Verba Volant emails 
alternatively write to the following address: unsubscribe_volant at rol.it always copying the EMAIL address written after "TO:"




From nobody at dizum.com  Fri Oct 19 19:30:18 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 04:30:18 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Retribution Time
Message-ID: <63b7160be4c70e9d5d2ab56ff29ef5bb@dizum.com>


 De time be almost here, good peoples. Time to get yours.
You know what I and I be talkin about -- no more fuckin
around about it. All dem pigs and feds jes be sooo busy
wid dem bin Ladens, dey got no time for us simple folks.
   Time be for I and I to git what we bin waitin for. Git
dem muthafuckas dat bin fuckin wid us all dis time. Git
dem pigs, git dem judges, git dem bill collectors, git dem
banks and take all dat money. Git em all, let God sort dem 
out. Fuck shit up, any way you ken think of. Git dem assholes
what done you wrong, git dem assholes doin everbody wrong.
But above all, git you some money!

   I and I be talkin somemore bout dis shit pretty soon, hey!

Bo Strange




From localhost at toad.com  Sat Oct 20 00:13:09 2001
From: localhost at toad.com ()
Date: 20 Oct 2001 07:13:09 -0000
Subject:    
Message-ID: <1003561989.1327.qmail@ech>



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From honig at sprynet.com  Sat Oct 20 08:30:41 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 08:30:41 -0700
Subject: http://www.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/conditions/10/20/anthrax/
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011020083041.008165c0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 12:20 AM 10/20/01 -0500, measl at mfn.org wrote:
>"Northwest Airlines has banned sugar substitutes and non-dairy creamers
>from its airplanes to avoid anthrax scares sparked by the white, powdery
>substances."
>
>ROTFLOL! 

Yes but you can still bring your own onboard, though "its not
recommended" by the airline.  

Hysterical in both senses.




 






  







From citizenQ at ziplip.com  Sat Oct 20 09:09:54 2001
From: citizenQ at ziplip.com (citizenQ)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 09:09:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Larry Ellison: front page biz section: detail plan 4 nat. id.
Message-ID: <4TUDWQUC10YG3PP3WURI4XZMZO2CD1GQVKIGUGH2@ziplip.com>


"This week Ellison offered specifics about his proposal in an interview..."

"The new ID's would be voluntary for everyone except immigrants..."

"Q: why is a national ID necessary? A: All ... IDs are different and they are easy to counterfeit.  My pilot's license ... is cut from a piece of cardboard."

"Q: You've offered ... the database software for free.  What about maintenance, tech support and upgrades?  A: In terms of associated services we have a very wealthy government. I don't think the government has any trouble paying for the labor associated with the software...   What's in it for me is the same thing that's in it for you: a safer America."

"Q: How do you take this beyond the talking stage? A: I've been back in Washington talking to the FBI, the CIA, ... had lunch with Attorney General Ashcroft...there are meetings planned at the White House..."

...ad nauseum




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Sat Oct 20 09:15:37 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 09:15:37 -0700
Subject: Retribution Time
In-Reply-To: <004801c15978$55678600$03d36b3f@pacer.com>
Message-ID: 


Hear, hear.

This sort of crap is the inevitable outcome of an unmoderated list.  All the
loons come out to play because there are no real negative consequences for
being a loon.  And filtering does not do anything besides bury one's head in
the sand.

I have an solution... (no, it's not AP).  :'D

I promise, when I get my new business going and have the time/money to
devote to it, I will offer Cypherpunks a real solution.  (Anybody who has
time/money and wants to discuss it now, please contact me offline.)

We now return you to the freak show, already in progress.


 S a n d y

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com]On
> Behalf Of Jon Beets
> Sent: 20 October, 2001 08:03
> To: cypherpunks at lne.com
> Subject: Re: Retribution Time
>
>
> Ooooooookay..
>
> The really sad part is you either think your really cool typing
> this crap or
> you lack any real social skills... Probably both....
>
> Jon Beets
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Nomen Nescio" 
> To: 
> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 9:30 PM
> Subject: Retribution Time
>
>
> > De time be almost here, good peoples. Time to get yours.
> > You know what I and I be talkin about -- no more fuckin
> > around about it. All dem pigs and feds jes be sooo busy
> > wid dem bin Ladens, dey got no time for us simple folks.
> >    Time be for I and I to git what we bin waitin for. Git
> > dem muthafuckas dat bin fuckin wid us all dis time. Git
> > dem pigs, git dem judges, git dem bill collectors, git dem
> > banks and take all dat money. Git em all, let God sort dem
> > out. Fuck shit up, any way you ken think of. Git dem assholes
> > what done you wrong, git dem assholes doin everbody wrong.
> > But above all, git you some money!
> >
> >    I and I be talkin somemore bout dis shit pretty soon, hey!
> >
> > Bo Strange




From citizenQ at ziplip.com  Sat Oct 20 09:19:14 2001
From: citizenQ at ziplip.com (citizenQ)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 09:19:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: sample Ellison ID card online
Message-ID: <4TKRL5KRJP0VP2H3VOL0CQFORLT5KT4TOVQED2MC@ziplip.com>


http://www.templetons.com/brad/oracard.html

Good for a laff.

An interesting irony, according to the site: Ellison's family took their name from Ellis Island immigration center.  Larry wants the ID mandatory for immigrants.




From hakkin at sarin.com  Sat Oct 20 09:29:22 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 09:29:22 -0700
Subject: Ridge is lying, spores are pro
Message-ID: <3BD1A661.93BE2D9B@sarin.com>


Consider these two reports: Bozo Ridge downplaying the weaponization
of the spores, contradicted by another source; and the Feebs
questioning NJ-mailbox-locals about knowing "chemists".

Makes one think the Quality is Very High and Ridge is lying.

We have always been at war with Oceania bin Laden.


In Washington, Ridge told reporters the anthrax analyzed in the United
States had not been ``weaponized,'' meaning it had not been manipulated
to
facilitate inhalation by potential victims.

Even so, one participant in a conference call for lawmakers said Robert
Gibbs, a Defense Department official, reported the anthrax was of
``relative
high quality'' and that ``there is an effort to downplay and not promote
the
abilities of the people doing this.'' The participant spoke on condition
of
anonymity.



Samantha Pae, 34, said she, her fiance, and her fiance's
mother were interviewed by FBI officers, who asked
them how long they had lived in the area and whether
they had noticed any suspicious activity or observed
vehicles with out-of-state plates. The agents also asked
them to provide their Social Security numbers, she said.

"They hit every house in the development area today,"
she said, adding that she had not seen any strange people
or unusual behavior. Charlotte Kaplan Piepszak, who has
lived in the neighborhood for 30 years, said FBI agents
asked similar questions of her.

"And then they asked if I knew any chemists," she said.



http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011020/ts/attacks_anthrax_95.html
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-102001anthrax.story




From citizenQ at ziplip.com  Sat Oct 20 09:44:12 2001
From: citizenQ at ziplip.com (citizenQ)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 09:44:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Calendar from Egypt: Image of WTC attack for month of Sept.
Message-ID: 


http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/9/27/124953.shtml

"A calendar which was printed in Egypt and
for the month of September shows a
crashing passenger plane with Manhattan
and the Statue of Liberty as a backdrop --
and which was printed in May, a full three
months before the Sept. 11 terrorist
attacks on America -- has caused an
uproar in the Dutch town of Almere,
Netherlands, the newspaper De Telegraaf
reported yesterday."




From NetMail at pnonline.com  Sat Oct 20 09:45:40 2001
From: NetMail at pnonline.com (Psychology Network)
Date: Saturday, Oct 20 2001 9:45:40 AM EST
Subject: Coping Skills
Message-ID: 

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From Jon.Beets at pacer.com  Sat Oct 20 08:03:09 2001
From: Jon.Beets at pacer.com (Jon Beets)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 10:03:09 -0500
Subject: Retribution Time
References: <63b7160be4c70e9d5d2ab56ff29ef5bb@dizum.com>
Message-ID: <004801c15978$55678600$03d36b3f@pacer.com>


Ooooooookay..

The really sad part is you either think your really cool typing this crap or
you lack any real social skills... Probably both....

Jon Beets


----- Original Message -----
From: "Nomen Nescio" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 9:30 PM
Subject: Retribution Time


> De time be almost here, good peoples. Time to get yours.
> You know what I and I be talkin about -- no more fuckin
> around about it. All dem pigs and feds jes be sooo busy
> wid dem bin Ladens, dey got no time for us simple folks.
>    Time be for I and I to git what we bin waitin for. Git
> dem muthafuckas dat bin fuckin wid us all dis time. Git
> dem pigs, git dem judges, git dem bill collectors, git dem
> banks and take all dat money. Git em all, let God sort dem
> out. Fuck shit up, any way you ken think of. Git dem assholes
> what done you wrong, git dem assholes doin everbody wrong.
> But above all, git you some money!
>
>    I and I be talkin somemore bout dis shit pretty soon, hey!
>
> Bo Strange




From hakkin at sarin.com  Sat Oct 20 10:14:55 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 10:14:55 -0700
Subject: French Nazis charge student with speaking freely
Message-ID: <3BD1B10F.4F962E8@sarin.com>


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20011019/aponline151310_000.htm

French Teen Leads Bin Laden Cheer

The Associated Press
Friday, Oct. 19, 2001; 3:13 p.m. EDT

STRASBOURG, France  A French teen-ager was placed
under investigation after he allegedly organized a
demonstration at his junior high school where students called
out "Long live bin Laden," judicial officials said Friday.

                  A juvenile court judge in Strasbourg placed the
15-year-old
                  under formal investigation  one step short of being
charged 
                  on Thursday for "justifying acts of terrorism," the
officials
                  said.

                  The judge ordered the student to remain under the
                  surveillance of a teacher.

                  For adults, the charge of "justifying acts of
terrorism" can
                  carry up to five years in prison and a $42,000 fine.

                  The teen-ager is believed to have organized a
demonstration
                  Monday at the Lezay-Marnesia school in Strasbourg, in
                  eastern France. About 100 students gathered in the
courtyard,
                  burned a pair of red-white-and-blue underwear and
cried out
                  "Long live (Osama) bin Laden, down with the
Americans."

                  Bin Laden is suspected in the Sept. 11 terror attacks
on the
                  World Trade Center and the Pentagon.




From tcmay at got.net  Sat Oct 20 10:17:31 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 10:17:31 -0700
Subject: stupid anthrax q: would microwaving your snail mail help?
In-Reply-To: <20011020121358.A17651@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <586035FC-C57E-11D5-8249-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Saturday, October 20, 2001, at 09:13 AM, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Dare I say it? Another reason to use just 7-bit ASCII.
>
> I'm not particularly religious on this issue, but for text-based
> discussions like the ones we have here, anything else just doesn't
> seem necessary, and can lead to strange results like what we just saw.
>
> -Declan
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 04:13:19PM -0700, Karsten M. Self wrote:
>> Above mistranslates ISO-8859-1 encoded \260 (octal), the degree sign, 
>> as
>> a zero.
>>
>> Temperatures should read 220 F, 270 F, and 280 F, not thousands of
>> degrees.
>
>


As Declan says, and as many of us have said, there are _abundant_ 
reasons to try to stick to 7-bit ASCII on mailing lists and on Usenet. 
It's not surprising to me that it is Karsten M. Self, whom I had to 
killfile, is quoted above in this issue. He was always complaining that 
posts should be "formatted for legibility," via his nags and reposts, 
but then he has MIME encrustations on his posts.

As for the "degrees" issue, confusion about the symbol was one of the 
reasons the scientific community abandoned use of the symbol at least 30 
years ago. 212 F and 100 C are the accepted ways of reporting 
temperature...the degree symbol was redundant anyway and led to 
typesetting problems.

--Tim May



--Tim May
"The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any 
member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to 
others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient 
warrant." --John Stuart Mill




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Sat Oct 20 10:06:38 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 12:06:38 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Ridge is lying, spores are pro
In-Reply-To: <3BD1A661.93BE2D9B@sarin.com>
Message-ID: 



On Sat, 20 Oct 2001, Khoder bin Hakkin wrote:

> In Washington, Ridge told reporters the anthrax analyzed in the United
> States had not been ``weaponized,'' meaning it had not been manipulated
> to
> facilitate inhalation by potential victims.

And to resist antibiotics.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From declan at well.com  Sat Oct 20 09:13:59 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 12:13:59 -0400
Subject: stupid anthrax q: would microwaving your snail mail help?
In-Reply-To: <20011019161318.O17102@navel.introspect>; from
  kmself@ix.netcom.com on Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 04:13:19PM -0700
References: <20011019022144.A2024@navel.introspect>
  
  <20011019151302.H17102@navel.introspect>
  <20011019161318.O17102@navel.introspect>
Message-ID: <20011020121358.A17651@cluebot.com>


Dare I say it? Another reason to use just 7-bit ASCII. 

I'm not particularly religious on this issue, but for text-based 
discussions like the ones we have here, anything else just doesn't
seem necessary, and can lead to strange results like what we just saw.

-Declan


On Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 04:13:19PM -0700, Karsten M. Self wrote:
> Above mistranslates ISO-8859-1 encoded \260 (octal), the degree sign, as
> a zero.
> 
> Temperatures should read 220 F, 270 F, and 280 F, not thousands of
> degrees.




From mati99 at interklub.pl  Sat Oct 20 03:17:23 2001
From: mati99 at interklub.pl (Mateusz Ziolek)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 12:17:23 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: remove
In-Reply-To: <3BC74959000015E5@mail.wirelessdeveloper.com> (added by mail.wirelessdeveloper.com)
Message-ID: 






From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Sat Oct 20 12:29:32 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 12:29:32 -0700
Subject: stupid anthrax q: would microwaving your snail mail help?
In-Reply-To: <586035FC-C57E-11D5-8249-0050E439C473@got.net>; from
  tcmay@got.net on Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 10:17:31AM -0700
References: <20011020121358.A17651@cluebot.com>
  <586035FC-C57E-11D5-8249-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <20011020122932.D2044@navel.introspect>


on Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 10:17:31AM -0700, Tim May (tcmay at got.net) wrote:
> On Saturday, October 20, 2001, at 09:13 AM, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
> > Dare I say it? Another reason to use just 7-bit ASCII.
> >
> > I'm not particularly religious on this issue, but for text-based
> > discussions like the ones we have here, anything else just doesn't
> > seem necessary, and can lead to strange results like what we just saw.

> As for the "degrees" issue, confusion about the symbol was one of the
> reasons the scientific community abandoned use of the symbol at least
> 30 years ago. 212 F and 100 C are the accepted ways of reporting
> temperature...the degree symbol was redundant anyway and led to
> typesetting problems.

Thanks, wasn't aware of that.

Peace.

--
Karsten M. Self        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?             Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]




From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Sat Oct 20 13:08:55 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 13:08:55 -0700
Subject: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)
In-Reply-To: ; from pho@tuttomedia.com
  on Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 12:56:02PM -0700
References: 
Message-ID: <20011020130855.G2044@navel.introspect>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
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From schear at lvcm.com  Sat Oct 20 13:17:59 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 13:17:59 -0700
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: <20011020134200.B18679@cluebot.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011019162608.038b25a0@pop3.lvcm.com>
  <00e601c158e4$70b40bc0$01000001@PATRICK>
  <5.1.0.14.0.20011019162608.038b25a0@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011020130355.03dac308@pop3.lvcm.com>


At 01:42 PM 10/20/2001 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>On Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 05:35:53PM -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
> > The direction of all recent administrations has been to expand
> > globalization (i.e., interdependency) thus increasing economic risks and
> > narrowing diplomatic choices.  In the short term, and we have no idea what
>
>When I speak of globalization, I mean removing barriers imposed by government
>to voluntary exchanges between consenting people. Sounds good to me.

Unfortunately, many citizens in the developing world are not party to these 
"voluntary" exchanges, but are directly affected.  I've read the reports of 
the many low wage sweat shop jobs, mainly performed by young women, in 
these countries and that their alternative is worse.  In a way one could 
portray their situations as dismal but not dire, sort of along the 
on-screen comments of Arthur to the prostitute is dinning with "... so you 
might say you're having a relatively good time?"

In the short term economic inequalities and human rights abuses may be 
exacerbated (e.g., the fate of rural mainland Chinese).  The long-term 
effects of globalization are as yet unknown.


>You seem to think of liberal global trade as a zero-sum game. This is
>an elementary error. Instead, liberal global trade is what economists
>would call an "expanding pie" where additional wealth is created.

Agreed, but wealth is only one measure of human happiness and the jury is 
still out on whether the vast majority of those indirectly affected by 
globalization will find it has been in their best interests.

steve




From declan at well.com  Sat Oct 20 10:36:16 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 13:36:16 -0400
Subject: Explosives found at Greyhound bus terminal
In-Reply-To: <20011019172743.C24596@ils.unc.edu>; from gbnewby@ils.unc.edu on Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 05:27:43PM -0400
References: <3BD09928.43D4EC66@ssz.com> <20011019172743.C24596@ils.unc.edu>
Message-ID: <20011020133616.A18679@cluebot.com>


A longer report from the local paper:
http://inq.philly.com/content/inquirer/2001/10/20/front_page/PBUS20.htm

-Declan

On Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 05:27:43PM -0400, Greg Newby wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 04:20:40PM -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> > 
> > http://www.nbc10.com/cgi-bin/gx.cgi/AppLogic+FTContentServer?pagename=FutureTense/Apps/Xcelerate/View&c=NBCArticle&cid=NBCJ2DVGXSC&p=NBCK9JZRB8C&live=true
> 
> >From the story (which is only about 5 paragraphs):
> 




From Jon.Beets at pacer.com  Sat Oct 20 11:41:23 2001
From: Jon.Beets at pacer.com (Jon Beets)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 13:41:23 -0500
Subject: Calendar from Egypt: Image of WTC attack for month of
  Sept.
References: 
Message-ID: <005601c15996$d192cd70$03d36b3f@pacer.com>


Its odd that I cannot find any reference to this story anywhere in google...
It seems that a story like this would be everywhere.. Might have to wait a
few days in hopes to see more info.. Also the picture they have in the
article is too small to make any details out...

Jon Beets

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "citizenQ" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2001 11:44 AM
Subject: Calendar from Egypt: Image of WTC attack for month of Sept.


> http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/9/27/124953.shtml
> 
> "A calendar which was printed in Egypt and
> for the month of September shows a
> crashing passenger plane with Manhattan
> and the Statue of Liberty as a backdrop --
> and which was printed in May, a full three
> months before the Sept. 11 terrorist
> attacks on America -- has caused an
> uproar in the Dutch town of Almere,
> Netherlands, the newspaper De Telegraaf
> reported yesterday."




From declan at well.com  Sat Oct 20 10:42:00 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 13:42:00 -0400
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011019162608.038b25a0@pop3.lvcm.com>; from
  schear@lvcm.com on Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 05:35:53PM -0700
References: <00e601c158e4$70b40bc0$01000001@PATRICK>
  <5.1.0.14.0.20011019162608.038b25a0@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: <20011020134200.B18679@cluebot.com>


On Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 05:35:53PM -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
> The direction of all recent administrations has been to expand 
> globalization (i.e., interdependency) thus increasing economic risks and 
> narrowing diplomatic choices.  In the short term, and we have no idea what 

When I speak of globalization, I mean removing barriers imposed by government
to voluntary exchanges between consenting people. Sounds good to me.

You seem to think of liberal global trade as a zero-sum game. This is
an elementary error. Instead, liberal global trade is what economists
would call an "expanding pie" where additional wealth is created.

-Declan




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Sat Oct 20 13:44:03 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 13:44:03 -0700
Subject: http://www.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/conditions/10/20/anthrax/
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011020134305.03150c60@idiom.com>


At 12:20 AM 10/20/2001 -0500, measl at mfn.org wrote:
>"Northwest Airlines has banned sugar substitutes and non-dairy creamers
>from its airplanes to avoid anthrax scares sparked by the white, powdery
>substances."
>
>ROTFLOL!


Does that mean they're switching over to actual milk or cream for coffee?
At least there's some good coming out of this :-)







From tcmay at got.net  Sat Oct 20 14:14:07 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 14:14:07 -0700
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011020130355.03dac308@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: <65C70580-C59F-11D5-8249-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Saturday, October 20, 2001, at 01:17 PM, Steve Schear wrote:

> At 01:42 PM 10/20/2001 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>> On Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 05:35:53PM -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
>> > The direction of all recent administrations has been to expand
>> > globalization (i.e., interdependency) thus increasing economic risks 
>> and
>> > narrowing diplomatic choices.  In the short term, and we have no 
>> idea what
>>
>> When I speak of globalization, I mean removing barriers imposed by 
>> government
>> to voluntary exchanges between consenting people. Sounds good to me.
>
> Unfortunately, many citizens in the developing world are not party to 
> these "voluntary" exchanges, but are directly affected.  I've read the 
> reports of the many low wage sweat shop jobs, mainly performed by young 
> women, in these countries and that their alternative is worse.  In a 
> way one could portray their situations as dismal but not dire, sort of 
> along the on-screen comments of Arthur to the prostitute is dinning 
> with "... so you might say you're having a relatively good time?"
>
> In the short term economic inequalities and human rights abuses may be 
> exacerbated (e.g., the fate of rural mainland Chinese).  The long-term 
> effects of globalization are as yet unknown.



Talking about "low wage sweat shop jobs" indicates profound confusion on 
your part.

Sorry to be so blunt, but this is the way it is. Henry Hazlitt wrote a 
good book on basic economics.

I doubt I can convince you in a few paragraphs, but consider some 
miscellaneous points, which are all closely related:

* "Low wage" compared to _what_?

* Comparing the wages to U.S. wages is not meaningful, for many reasons.

* To those getting paid $300 an hour, most jobs in the U.S. are "low 
wage sweat shops." Perhaps the U.N. can attempt to force U.S. average 
wages to be raised?

* If the labor is being "exploited" by being paid "too little," this is 
an excellent opportunity for an efficient producer to enter the market 
and offer more. Henry Ford did this with car production early in the 
20th century, Intel is doing it now with factories in Malaysia, Costa 
Rica, and mainlaind China. More "globalization" explotin' da peeples, I 
guess.

--Tim May
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only 
exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from 
the Public Treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for 
the candidate promising the most benefits from the Public Treasury with 
the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy 
always followed by dictatorship." --Alexander Fraser Tyler




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Sat Oct 20 14:15:12 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 14:15:12 -0700
Subject: Another precious moment from shrub...
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011020002925.03e362d0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com
 >
References: <3BD0D8A9.21458.413B0@localhost>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20011018120159.0265eec8@10.0.0.2>
 <3BC50443.18636.3A5DA4@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011020140837.035f6a80@idiom.com>


At 12:30 AM 10/20/2001 -1000, Reese wrote:
>At 01:51 AM 10/20/01 -0700, jamesd at echeque.com wrote:
> >In Latin America one Soviet sponsored tyranny was overthrown, and replaced
> >by democracy,
>
>Name?

If this is the Soviet sponsored tyranny that replaced 40 years of
"He may be an SOB, but he's OUR SOB" brutal dictatorship,
it's Nicaragua.

And the US government spent $9/voter (or maybe vote, I don't remember which)
on campaign funding for the election where Chamorro beat Ortega -
that's far beyond the amounts spent in normal US elections -
plus they'd funded military resistance and civil war against the
Sandinistas, so the economy was seriously damaged not only by
Marxist stupidity and traditional cronyism and corruption,
which would have done a number on it all by themselves,
but by the need to spend large amounts on the military,
the destruction caused by both sides of the conflict,
and the diversion of otherwise-productive people into war,
and of course by the serious limitations on international trade
caused by the US military mining their harbors.




From honig at sprynet.com  Sat Oct 20 14:49:53 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 14:49:53 -0700
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011020130355.03dac308@pop3.lvcm.com>
References: <20011020134200.B18679@cluebot.com>
  <5.1.0.14.0.20011019162608.038b25a0@pop3.lvcm.com>
  <00e601c158e4$70b40bc0$01000001@PATRICK>
  <5.1.0.14.0.20011019162608.038b25a0@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011020144953.008189d0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 01:17 PM 10/20/01 -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
>At 01:42 PM 10/20/2001 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>On Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 05:35:53PM -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
>> > The direction of all recent administrations has been to expand
>> > globalization (i.e., interdependency) thus increasing economic risks and
>> > narrowing diplomatic choices.  In the short term, and we have no idea
what
>>
>>When I speak of globalization, I mean removing barriers imposed by
government
>>to voluntary exchanges between consenting people. Sounds good to me.
>
>Unfortunately, many citizens in the developing world are not party to these 
>"voluntary" exchanges, but are directly affected.  

So?  Everyone *everywhere* is 'affected' by everyone elses' decisions.
Everything
you consume or make affects the global supply:demand and therefore price.


>In the short term economic inequalities and human rights abuses may be 
>exacerbated (e.g., the fate of rural mainland Chinese).  The long-term 
>effects of globalization are as yet unknown.

The effects of unfree localized trade are well known: regular folks
see higher prices.  Even if trade is global but unfree, they see
artificial tariffs.  To say nothing of the peasant who can't *choose*
a better job in a factory because of unfree trade.

>>You seem to think of liberal global trade as a zero-sum game. This is
>>an elementary error. Instead, liberal global trade is what economists
>>would call an "expanding pie" where additional wealth is created.

Additionally, free trade leads to (purely voluntary, emergent) optimization.
(If I can make X or Y, but you can make X but not Y cheaper, I'll make Y
and you make X.)

No one forces a farmer to the city to look for an industrial job.
No one forces industrial folks to seek service jobs.  Its economics
and psychology.

>Agreed, but wealth is only one measure of human happiness and the jury is 
>still out on whether the vast majority of those indirectly affected by 
>globalization will find it has been in their best interests.

Guess what: in a free society, no one is in charge of optimizing happiness.
Well, each individual is responsible for their own.  Since others can't
tell what makes each individual happy, this is again optimal.

\begin{asbestos}
In a centrally-ruled (statist) society some elites decide what *should* 
make *others* happy.  And forces everyone to pay for it.
Not only doomed in reality, but immoral.
\end{}




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Sat Oct 20 14:57:05 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 14:57:05 -0700
Subject: Followup - Re: Risks of bogus e-mail addresses
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011020145623.035f3a60@idiom.com>


------------------------------


From honig at sprynet.com  Sat Oct 20 15:01:46 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 15:01:46 -0700
Subject: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <20011020130855.G2044@navel.introspect>
References: 
  
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011020150146.0081bb50@pop.sprynet.com>


>on Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 12:56:02PM -0700, Giovanna Imbesi
(pho at tuttomedia.com) wrote:
>> Last night my friend and I stopped at a Venice club/bar.  At the door
>> they were doing the normal ID check, but then took my driver's license
>> and swiped it into a little Palm-like device...and all the info popped
>> up on the screen.  

Venice Italy or Calif (etc.)?  Never mind -I saw the 310, so I'll
ignore your Italian name.  Amerika.

You mean the magstripe on your license still carries information? 
Give that man a magnet.

Do different states use different formats for the data on the magstrip?


>>Is this even legal? 

You chose to give them your bits.  They could ask for a thumbprint
too, or AIDS test result, or DNA sample.  Big deal.  If you don't 
want to play their game, go away.  Having signed no contract to 
keep that info private or unexploited, expect some junk mail.

Having a copy of someone's info is not fraudulent behavior.  There's
lots of clubs that don't probe your orifices so much.  

Aren't they
>> authorized to check date-of-birth but no more?  

They aren't authorized to do anything.  They have to make sure they don't
sell ethanol to those the govt deems unfit or the govt shuts them down with
force.   How they verify this is up to them, as is the risk.




From staff at wirelessdeveloper.com  Sat Oct 20 12:08:38 2001
From: staff at wirelessdeveloper.com (The WirelessDeveloper Team)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 15:08:38 -0400
Subject: Your WirelessDeveloper Password
Message-ID: <3BC7495900001BB5@mail.wirelessdeveloper.com> (added by mail.wirelessdeveloper.com)


This email has been sent automatically by The WirelessDeveloper System

Username: cypherpunks at toad.com
Password: W5m5oiWiy5fG

Go to http://www.wirelessdeveloper.com/login.asp?email=cypherpunks at toad.com and enter your username and password to log on to the WirelessDeveloper site.

Thank You!
The WirelessDeveloper Team




From honig at sprynet.com  Sat Oct 20 15:09:49 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 15:09:49 -0700
Subject: http://www.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/conditions/10/20/anthrax/
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20011020134305.03150c60@idiom.com>
References: 
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011020150949.00819320@pop.sprynet.com>


At 01:44 PM 10/20/01 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
>At 12:20 AM 10/20/2001 -0500, measl at mfn.org wrote:
>>"Northwest Airlines has banned sugar substitutes and non-dairy creamers
>>from its airplanes to avoid anthrax scares sparked by the white, powdery
>>substances."
>>
>>ROTFLOL!
>
>
>Does that mean they're switching over to actual milk or cream for coffee?
>At least there's some good coming out of this :-)

Just half-and-half, not cream.  Anything over 50% cream is now an 
assault dairy product.





 






  







From grocha at neutraldomain.org  Sat Oct 20 06:25:54 2001
From: grocha at neutraldomain.org (Gabriel Rocha)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 15:25:54 +0200
Subject: Los Angeles Times: Don't Go Postal on Airport Security
Message-ID: <20011020152554.A446@neutraldomain.org>


http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-000083377oct19.story?coll=la%2Dnews%2
Dcomment%2Dopinions

Los Angeles Times

COMMENTARY

Don't Go Postal on Airport Security

By JOHN R. LOTT Jr.
John R. Lott Jr. is a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute
and the author of "More Guns, Less Crime" (University of Chicago Press,
2000)

October 19 2001

If you had an important task in which speed and flexibility were vital,
would it be better done by government or private employees?

The answer seems obvious. Government salaries are fixed, and firing them is
virtually impossible. Government bureaucracies are not known for quick
adjustments or innovations. Nowadays, even the U.S. Postal Service hires
Federal Express to help deliver mail. In the post-Sept. 11 debate, though,
it seems taken for granted that the federal government should take over
security at airports.

The discussion so far involves anecdotal stories of how people were able to
breach airport security. The assumption is that this would never occur if
only these workers were federal employees. Yet does anyone really wonder
whether reporters posing as illegal immigrants could cross the Mexican
border? Airport screening is extremely difficult. Terrorists can evade metal
detectors with knives made of plastic or ceramics. Thin metal blades can be
hard to detect with X-rays and can be hidden in the bottom of shoes or made
to look like parts of metal boxes. Even hand checks of all baggage do not
guarantee safety. But there is a better approach. Western European countries
started privatizing airport security in the early 1990s after spectacular
security failures with government-run operations. The governments set
standards but left it to the privately run airports to decide exactly how to
meet the standards.

Private security is not just limited to screening passengers and their
baggage. In Britain, for example, private companies also provide gate,
aircraft and catering security, as well as crew screening. Similar
arrangements exist at such high-risk airports as Amsterdam, Belfast,
Brussels, Copenhagen, Frankfurt, Hamburg and Paris.

At Israel's Ben Gurion Airport, government involvement is more extensive,
providing training and controlling access to the tarmac and other sensitive
areas. Still, a private company conducts pre-boarding screening and other
security operations.

What is startling is how the drop-off in hijackings corresponds with the
privatization of these services. There were 21 hijackings in Europe during
the 1970s, 16 during the 1980s but only four during the 1990s. Out of these
41 hijackings, only three originated from airports with private security.
With all the concern about getting qualified people to perform security,
Europe's experience has another lesson. Europeans found that some people
were too highly trained and got bored and inattentive staring at screens all
day.

In any event, training standards have nothing to do with workers being
employed by the government. Barbers, real estate agents, doctors and others
are required to meet minimum training times. In most states, you can't sell
real estate without attending classes for at least six months, but no one
claims that means agents should be federal employees.

Many airlines are losing tens of millions of dollars each day. If they are
to survive, people's fear of flying must be dealt with quickly. An airline
safety bill that creates one government agency to operate security has
passed the Senate and is moving to the House. That solution would eliminate
competition that could create innovative ways to protect passengers.

In their rush, senators re-created Western Europe's painful mistakes. Europe
learned the hard way that some things are better run by the private sector.
If these provisions in the Senate bill become law, the U.S. will be modeling
its air security system after the post office.


-- 
"It's not brave, if you're not scared."




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Sat Oct 20 15:36:23 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 15:36:23 -0700
Subject: New kind of FUD :-)
In-Reply-To: <637a0278b2edf7175f8de2dea2f57004@cypherpunks.to>
Message-ID: 


Now HERE is where you need that microwave.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com]On
> Behalf Of Anonymous via the Cypherpunks Tonga Remailer
> Sent: 20 October, 2001 13:16
> To: cypherpunks at lne.com
> Subject: New kind of FUD :-)
> 
> 
> Got this junk mail:
> 
> 
> Subject: CASH COPS PATROL AIRPORTS: for terrorism or tax collector?
> 
> 
> NEW MICROCHIP CAN TRACK CASH!
> A tiny new chip called "MEW", from Hitachi can be 
> woven into paper money, and used for identification  
> and surveillance tracking. The chip measures just 
> 0.4 millimeters on a side, and stores security codes.
> Airport police, called CASH COPS, already in 
> force, look forward to using the new technology.
> 
> TURN IN "OLD CASH" FOR "NEW CASH?"
> Several governments have already been testing this 
> technology and will probably be printing new money 
> very soon. Most likely people will have to change 
> the old currency for new currency. After that the 
> old money will probably be illegal to even possess.
> Governments will say it is a "State of Emergency" 
> for controlling terrorists, and it will probably 
> happen literally overnight. 
> 
> PROTECT YOUR PRIVACY AND ASSETS
> 
> SWISS STYLE BANKING
> SWISS TRUST MANAGING
> IN THE NEW SWITZERLAND
> 
> NO PERSONAL or COMPANY NAME
> on Coded Bank Account or ATM card.
> Your name stays off computer tracking. 
> 
> ANONYMOUS CODED ATM CARDS
> Unlimited instant daily cash withdrawal at over
> 500,000 ATMs worldwide.Total privacy.
> 
> ANONYMOUS CODED BANK ACCOUNT
> No name will appear on any bank wire transfer
> No tax ID, credit checks, or references required. 
> 
> (pointers to spammer deleted)




From tcmay at got.net  Sat Oct 20 15:37:58 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 15:37:58 -0700
Subject: Assault Donuts
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011020150949.00819320@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <1CB2EE88-C5AB-11D5-8249-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Saturday, October 20, 2001, at 03:09 PM, David Honig wrote:

> At 01:44 PM 10/20/01 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
>> At 12:20 AM 10/20/2001 -0500, measl at mfn.org wrote:
>>> "Northwest Airlines has banned sugar substitutes and non-dairy 
>>> creamers
>>> from its airplanes to avoid anthrax scares sparked by the white, 
>>> powdery
>>> substances."

>> Does that mean they're switching over to actual milk or cream for 
>> coffee?
>> At least there's some good coming out of this :-)
>
> Just half-and-half, not cream.  Anything over 50% cream is now an
> assault dairy product.

"WASHINGTON (Routers News Service) Because of false alarms involving the 
confectioner's sugar on powdered donuts, sale of so-called "assault 
donuts" will henceforth be restricted to law enforcement officers. "Cops 
have always been the largest consumers of donuts, this just makes them 
the _only_ legal purchaser of this particular kind of donut," said 
Department of Donuts spokesman Ring Annulus."



--Tim May
"The State is the great fiction by which everyone seeks to live at the 
expense of everyone else." --Frederic Bastiat




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Sat Oct 20 15:42:31 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 15:42:31 -0700
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


More Inchoate reasoning.  Jimbo wrote:

> The reality is that these sweatshops do
> exist, that they do exploit the workers...

Gee, I wonder why these workers chose to be exploited instead of taking a
job somewhere else in their benighted non-capitalist countries where the
opportunities were better.  Maybe they aren't as smart as Jimbo and need to
be told they are being exploited.  :'D


 S a n d y





From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Sat Oct 20 16:13:44 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 16:13:44 -0700
Subject: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3BD1FF36.4AADAA0D@cybershamanix.com>; from
  hseaver@cybershamanix.com on Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 05:48:44PM -0500
References: 
  
  <3.0.6.32.20011020150146.0081bb50@pop.sprynet.com>
  <20011020220950.12639.qmail@sidereal.kz>
  <3BD1FF36.4AADAA0D@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <20011020161344.A6471@navel.introspect>


on Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 05:48:44PM -0500, Harmon Seaver
(hseaver at cybershamanix.com) wrote:
> "Dr. Evil" wrote:
>
> > > Do different states use different formats for the data on the magstrip?
> >
> > Do all states even have magstrips?
>
>       You know, I never even realized until right now that my DL has a mag
> strip. This is a new thing for WI, I think. Pretty sure my recent MN didn't
> have one. I guess the more interesting thing would be, before wiping it
out,
> to figure out a way to read it.

    http://www.google.com/search?q=drivers+license+magnetic+stripe

California, Maryland, New York, Ohio, Texas, and Wisconsin, notably.

See also:  http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/13.18.html

[From California SB 1447, 1992, the "Privacy Act of 1992"]

    SECTION 2: INFORMATION OBTAINED FROM DRIVER'S LICENSES

    This section requires the written consent of a consumer for a
    business entity to (1) sell information obtained from the consumer's
    driver's license or (2) use such information to advertise goods or
    services.

    The section is intended to cover instances where a consumer presents
    a driver's license or identification card for identification
    purposes during a business transaction.  The section is not intended
    to prevent businesses from using driver's license information for
    business record-keeping, or for other purposes related to the
    transaction (i.e. authorizing a transaction).

    The section is not intended to change existing law with respect to
    the ability of businesses to obtain driver's license information
    from other sources (such as DMV records).

    The need for this section is heightened by the new "magstripe"
    drivers license developed by the Department of Motor Vehicles.  This
    license has a magnetic stripe on the back which contains much of the
    information on the front of the license.  The stripe will enable a
    business entity to store information contained on a driver's license
    simply by scanning the card through a reader.

    A publication by the Department of Motor Vehicles dated May 1991
    ("Department of Motor Vehicles Magnetic Stripe Drivers
    License/Identification Card") states that "using point of sale (POS)
    readers and printers, the business community can electronically
    record the DL [driver's license] /ID number on receipts and business
    records."  The publication notes that "magnetic stripe readers are
    readily available, relatively low in cost, and are already available
    in many retail outlets."

    However, a merchant might access much more than the driver's
    license/ID number; the publication notes that "readers have been
    produced, and market available readers can be modified that will
    read the three tracks of information contained on the California
    card."  According to the publication, the tracks contain information
    such as license type, name, address, sex, hair-color, eye-color,
    height, weight, restrictions, issue date.

Peace.

--
Karsten M. Self        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?             Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Sat Oct 20 16:16:12 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 16:16:12 -0700
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


I don't blaim [sic] the government; I blame the economic system.

Free markets are good; any form of collectivism is bad.  In mixed economies,
the freer the better.  QED.

No amount of Inchoate hand waving alters that basic economic reality.
Sounds like Jimbo is in need of remedial reading, spelling AND economics
courses.


 S a n d y


> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com]On
> Behalf Of Jim Choate
> Sent: 20 October, 2001 16:07
> To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> Subject: RE: Retribution not enough
>
>
> On Sat, 20 Oct 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote:
>
> > More Inchoate reasoning.  Jimbo wrote:
> >
> > > The reality is that these sweatshops do
> > > exist, that they do exploit the workers...
> >
> > Gee, I wonder why these workers chose to be exploited instead
> of taking a
> > job somewhere else in their benighted non-capitalist countries where the
> > opportunities were better.  Maybe they aren't as smart as Jimbo
> and need to
> > be told they are being exploited.  :'D
>
> Because there isn't any other jobs to be had. They take what they can get.
>
> The fact (that escapes the CACL crowd among others) is that their choices
> are being manipulated and aren't free. Now you can blaim that on 'big
> business' or 'government' or whatever convenient fantasy you like.
>
> The final irrevocable fact is that PEOPLE DO IT TO PEOPLE. The 'how' isn't
> the real issue. CACL handwaving that its the 'government' is nothing more
> than spin doctor bullshit in their attempt to be 'the man'. Why else would
> they on one hand blaim the 'government' and then turn around and blaim the
> 'individuals'. It's odd they call 'the people' sheep while at the same
> time stating that they are the best ones (ie do away with government, go
> free market) to make their own decisions. Hypocrisy, until you realize
> they just want to be the one to do the exploiting.
>
>
>  --
>     ____________________________________________________________________
>
>      The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.
>
>                                              Edmund Burke (1784)
>
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Oct 20 14:31:31 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 16:31:31 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: <65C70580-C59F-11D5-8249-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: 



On Sat, 20 Oct 2001, Tim May wrote:

> Talking about "low wage sweat shop jobs" indicates profound confusion on 
> your part.
> 
> Sorry to be so blunt, but this is the way it is. Henry Hazlitt wrote a 
> good book on basic economics.
> 
> I doubt I can convince you in a few paragraphs, but consider some 
> miscellaneous points, which are all closely related:
> 
> * "Low wage" compared to _what_?

What it takes to have reasonable living standards and sufficient resources
to help ones children do better than themselves. The reality is that these
sweatshops do exist, that they do exploit the workers, and that they are
specifically managed to keep the workers from exploiting economic, social,
and educational resources. Why? Because if the producers allow this
behaviour they put themselves out of business.

> * Comparing the wages to U.S. wages is not meaningful, for many reasons.

It isn't the wages, it's the human condition that is comparable. The
econimics are only a single measure of a multi-variant situation.

> * To those getting paid $300 an hour, most jobs in the U.S. are "low 
> wage sweat shops." Perhaps the U.N. can attempt to force U.S. average 
> wages to be raised?

Very(!) few people get $300/hr. However, the vast majority of peoples in
N. America and Europe manage to have a substantialy higher quality of life
style than in S. America, Africa, and the Middle/Far East. Why? Because
they lack a fundamental belief, let alone respect for, human beings. They
are seen as nothing more than another resource to be used for ones own
advancement (and this implies that those used are denied their
opportunities).

> * If the labor is being "exploited" by being paid "too little," this is 
> an excellent opportunity for an efficient producer to enter the market 
> and offer more. Henry Ford did this with car production early in the 
> 20th century, Intel is doing it now with factories in Malaysia, Costa 
> Rica, and mainlaind China. More "globalization" explotin' da peeples, I 
> guess.

If the market were open, it isn't. The reality is that the market is
controlled in such a way as to keep the status quo. This ensures the
political, social, and economics supremacy of a small minority at the
expense of the many.

> "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only 
> exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from 
> the Public Treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for 
> the candidate promising the most benefits from the Public Treasury with 
> the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy 
> always followed by dictatorship." --Alexander Fraser Tyler

This bozo can't tell the difference between a 'socialism' (which is what
he's describing) and a 'dictatorship'. Sounds more like he's begging the
question.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Oct 19 23:35:43 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 16:35:43 +1000
Subject: assasinating larry
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011020162703.00a706f0@pop.useoz.com>


'Did you take your meds today? '(measles wrote)

Yes thanks,every day in every way,Im getting better and better.A lot of 
serious mental health problems
clear up in world wars.Dr karaditch is in consultation with an egyptian 
colleage overseas so Im in good hands.
Its comforting to be told to fly again and see disneyland while there is 
the 100% possibility of more attacks.
I dont feel so alone in my acute schizophrenia.And then theres 'Reg', 
APcould become a craze...LUV from OZ.




From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Oct 19 23:54:53 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 16:54:53 +1000
Subject: retribution time
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011020164904.00a70040@pop.useoz.com>


nomen nescio wrote(condensed)


time be almost here, good peoples. Time to get yours.
You know what I and I be talkin about -- no more fuckin
around about it. All dem pigs and feds jes be sooo busy
wid dem bin Ladens, dey got no time for us simple folks.
    Time be for I and I to git what we bin waitin for. Git
dem muthafuckas dat bin fuckin wid us all dis time. Git
dem pigs, git dem judges, git dem bill collectors, git dem
banks and take all dat money. Git em all, let God sort dem
out. Fuck shit up, any way you ken think of. Git dem assholes
what done you wrong, git dem assholes doin everbody 
wrong 


If your not some low rent charlie manson,your welcome to drop by 
www.indymedia.org and support
operation soft drill with some of your booty.Put some money where your big 
mouth is.




From xeni at xeni.net  Sat Oct 20 17:17:27 2001
From: xeni at xeni.net (Xeni Jardin)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 17:17:27 -0700
Subject: Assault Donuts
In-Reply-To: <1CB2EE88-C5AB-11D5-8249-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: 


Tim May wrote:

> "WASHINGTON (Routers News Service) Because of false alarms involving the
> confectioner's sugar on powdered donuts, sale of so-called "assault
> donuts" will henceforth be restricted to law enforcement officers. "Cops
> have always been the largest consumers of donuts, this just makes them
> the _only_ legal purchaser of this particular kind of donut," said
> Department of Donuts spokesman Ring Annulus."

Don't laugh, there was an actual news item along these lines on Thursday. After
truth, powdered donuts are always the second casualty of war.

Then again, switching to crullers could be giving in to exactly what the
terrorists *want* us to do.
Thursday October 18 11:56 PM EDT

Powdered Doughnuts Make Customers Nervous

The anthrax scares has caused people to call 911 over bird droppings, talcum
powder and laundry detergent; and now even their morning doughnut is making
some people nervous.


Specifically doughnuts with powdered sugar are being affected at a DeBary
doughnut shop.

People can find glazed, chocolate, cinnamon crumb, and jelly-filled doughnuts 
but not a single one with powdered sugar.

"Because people are afraid of them. They're afraid of the powder on the
doughnut," employee Marie Cavalho said.

The manager of the Go For Donuts shop banned powdered pastries after a steady
customer picked up five-dozen on Monday, took them to a meeting and then called
to change the order.

"We said why? He said they won't eat them, they're afraid of them," Rosemary
Dorazio said. "They're afraid the powder might contain anthrax."

But the women who work the counter said that powdered sugar is simply powdered
sugar and the baker is the only one who touches the doughnuts before they are
set out for sale.

Still, the manager wanted customers to feel comfortable.

"If it makes them happy and at-ease why not give them what they want?" employee
Marie Carvalho asked.

The manager said that powdered doughnuts will stay off the shelf until
customers ask for them.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sat Oct 20 15:18:05 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 17:18:05 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011020144953.008189d0@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: 



On Sat, 20 Oct 2001, David Honig wrote:

> \begin{asbestos}
> In a centrally-ruled (statist) society some elites decide what *should* 
> make *others* happy.  And forces everyone to pay for it.
> Not only doomed in reality, but immoral.
> \end{}

This isn't 'government' (statist or otherwise), it's human psychology.

The bottom line is there is always some segement of any(!) human
population that thinks their 'better', 'smarter', etc. And they will act,
irrespective of the form of social structure they may be in.

This is the fundamental failure of all CACL theory. It draws a false
distinction between 'government' and 'people'. It's a simple failure of
logic, imagination, and maturity.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From xeni at xeni.net  Sat Oct 20 17:41:38 2001
From: xeni at xeni.net (Xeni Jardin)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 17:41:38 -0700
Subject: Assault Donuts
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


souce url 




From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Sat Oct 20 15:48:44 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 17:48:44 -0500
Subject: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)
References: 
  
  <3.0.6.32.20011020150146.0081bb50@pop.sprynet.com>
  <20011020220950.12639.qmail@sidereal.kz>
Message-ID: <3BD1FF36.4AADAA0D@cybershamanix.com>


"Dr. Evil" wrote:

> > Do different states use different formats for the data on the magstrip?
>
> Do all states even have magstrips?

      You know, I never even realized until right now that my DL has a mag
strip. This is a new thing for WI, I think. Pretty sure my recent MN didn't
have one. I guess the more interesting thing would be, before wiping it out,
to figure out a way to read it.

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver at cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sat Oct 20 16:07:09 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 18:07:09 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Sat, 20 Oct 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

> More Inchoate reasoning.  Jimbo wrote:
> 
> > The reality is that these sweatshops do
> > exist, that they do exploit the workers...
> 
> Gee, I wonder why these workers chose to be exploited instead of taking a
> job somewhere else in their benighted non-capitalist countries where the
> opportunities were better.  Maybe they aren't as smart as Jimbo and need to
> be told they are being exploited.  :'D

Because there isn't any other jobs to be had. They take what they can get.

The fact (that escapes the CACL crowd among others) is that their choices
are being manipulated and aren't free. Now you can blaim that on 'big
business' or 'government' or whatever convenient fantasy you like.

The final irrevocable fact is that PEOPLE DO IT TO PEOPLE. The 'how' isn't
the real issue. CACL handwaving that its the 'government' is nothing more
than spin doctor bullshit in their attempt to be 'the man'. Why else would
they on one hand blaim the 'government' and then turn around and blaim the
'individuals'. It's odd they call 'the people' sheep while at the same
time stating that they are the best ones (ie do away with government, go
free market) to make their own decisions. Hypocrisy, until you realize
they just want to be the one to do the exploiting.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From honig at sprynet.com  Sat Oct 20 18:27:44 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 18:27:44 -0700
Subject: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3BD1FF36.4AADAA0D@cybershamanix.com>
References: 
  
  <3.0.6.32.20011020150146.0081bb50@pop.sprynet.com>
  <20011020220950.12639.qmail@sidereal.kz>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011020182744.0081e930@pop.sprynet.com>


At 05:48 PM 10/20/01 -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>"Dr. Evil" wrote:
>
>> > Do different states use different formats for the data on the magstrip?
>>
>> Do all states even have magstrips?
>
>      You know, I never even realized until right now that my DL has a mag
>strip. 

And you call yourself a cpunk?

This is a new thing for WI, I think. Pretty sure my recent MN didn't
>have one. I guess the more interesting thing would be, before wiping it out,
>to figure out a way to read it.

You are redeemed.

Newer Kalif. licenses have an optical bar code too.

Maybe worth looking at, but you might need magnification, like
a big fresnel lens, and you should use direct sunlight too.




From honig at sprynet.com  Sat Oct 20 18:28:31 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 18:28:31 -0700
Subject: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <20011020225229.7090.qmail@sidereal.kz>
References: <3BD1FF36.4AADAA0D@cybershamanix.com>
   
  <3.0.6.32.20011020150146.0081bb50@pop.sprynet.com>
  <20011020220950.12639.qmail@sidereal.kz>
  <3BD1FF36.4AADAA0D@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011020182831.007f66f0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 10:52 PM 10/20/01 -0000, Dr. Evil wrote:
>
>Sooner or later the strips will be replaced with some kind of
>tamper-resistant smart chips, and then we will have a much harder time
>knowing what's on the chip.

Only when microwave ovens are outlawed. :-)




From honig at sprynet.com  Sat Oct 20 18:30:15 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 18:30:15 -0700
Subject: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <20011020161344.A6471@navel.introspect>
References: <3BD1FF36.4AADAA0D@cybershamanix.com>
   
  <3.0.6.32.20011020150146.0081bb50@pop.sprynet.com>
  <20011020220950.12639.qmail@sidereal.kz>
  <3BD1FF36.4AADAA0D@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011020183015.007ac530@pop.sprynet.com>


At 04:13 PM 10/20/01 -0700, Karsten M. Self wrote:
>[From California SB 1447, 1992, the "Privacy Act of 1992"]
>
>    SECTION 2: INFORMATION OBTAINED FROM DRIVER'S LICENSES
>
>    This section requires the written consent of a consumer for a
>    business entity to (1) sell information obtained from the consumer's
>    driver's license or (2) use such information to advertise goods or
>    services.
>

Thanks for the research.  Too bad its practically unenforcable, how
would you know *which* of the places leaked?




From schear at lvcm.com  Sat Oct 20 18:30:30 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 18:30:30 -0700
Subject: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <20011020225229.7090.qmail@sidereal.kz>
References: <3BD1FF36.4AADAA0D@cybershamanix.com>
   
  <3.0.6.32.20011020150146.0081bb50@pop.sprynet.com>
  <20011020220950.12639.qmail@sidereal.kz>
  <3BD1FF36.4AADAA0D@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011020182850.0398e6e8@pop3.lvcm.com>


At 10:52 PM 10/20/2001 +0000, Dr. Evil wrote:
> >       You know, I never even realized until right now that my DL has a mag
> > strip. This is a new thing for WI, I think. Pretty sure my recent MN didn't
> > have one. I guess the more interesting thing would be, before wiping it 
> out,
> > to figure out a way to read it.
>
>I'm sure you can buy card readers that will read it, but I'm equally
>sure you won't find anything sinister on it.  From what I understand,
>all they put on the back is a machine-readable version of the text
>that's on the front.  Nothing mysterious.
>
>Sooner or later the strips will be replaced with some kind of
>tamper-resistant smart chips, and then we will have a much harder time
>knowing what's on the chip.

It creates new opportunities for portable EMP "writers"

steve




From honig at sprynet.com  Sat Oct 20 18:36:06 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 18:36:06 -0700
Subject: Sign of Escalating Threat
In-Reply-To: <2ddbf0b0825298a859caac1364cb4097@disastry.dhs.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011020183606.007f6420@pop.sprynet.com>


At 04:15 AM 10/19/01 +0200, Anonymous sender wrote:
>The trick was turning it into an aerosol that lingers.

1. graphite is used by smokeless powder manuf. to isolate grains
2. how about electrostatic dispersion?  charge the particles....

Thing is, anyone with access to quality spores could probably have swung a
major
deal with the TLAs --tell 'em what you know, get the American
lifestyle and/or a new identity.  Doesn't work for ideologically
motivated though.  Same reason an N million $ reward just illustrates
the American value system, to the True Believers, without swaying a 
potential informant.










 






  







From honig at sprynet.com  Sat Oct 20 18:38:12 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 18:38:12 -0700
Subject: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3BD21DCC.40FAFB19@cybershamanix.com>
References: 
  
  <3.0.6.32.20011020150146.0081bb50@pop.sprynet.com>
  <20011020220950.12639.qmail@sidereal.kz>
  <3BD1FF36.4AADAA0D@cybershamanix.com>
  <20011020161344.A6471@navel.introspect>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011020183812.007f5c50@pop.sprynet.com>


At 07:59 PM 10/20/01 -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>  According to the MI state page, MI has a a "strict" law limiting what
>the mag stripe and barcode can contain, only the DL #, DOB, and
>expiration date.

You can do a certain amount of social engineering with a DL and DOB.




From tbr at synthesia.cz  Sat Oct 20 18:48:02 2001
From: tbr at synthesia.cz (Tabla bin Rasa)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 18:48:02 -0700
Subject: Assault Donuts
Message-ID: <3BD22951.C1892BDF@synthesia.cz>


At 05:41 PM 10/20/01 -0700, Xeni Jardin wrote:
>souce url 

My Norcal culture-informant has forwarded
a picture of a sign from a 
bathroom which reads in red serif:

"Due to recent world events,
please clean up all body powder
before leaving the locker room"



Hysterical, hysterical.
Time for a hysterectomy.

.......
If you die first, we're splitting up your gear.




From tcmay at got.net  Sat Oct 20 19:32:07 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 19:32:07 -0700
Subject: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3BD21DCC.40FAFB19@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: 


On Saturday, October 20, 2001, at 05:59 PM, Harmon Seaver wrote:

>   According to the MI state page, MI has a a "strict" law limiting what
> the mag stripe and barcode can contain, only the DL #, DOB, and
> expiration date.
> http://www.sos.state.mi.us/drlic/sos-365.html

Much like the "strict" law limiting what SS cards could be used for:

"For Social Security and tax purposes only. Not for identification."

(Or very similar to this. It's printed on my 1969 SS card, which I still 
have.)

I've had government agencies demand my SS number. One time I showed the 
clerk my card, with my SS number covered by my thumb. She just gave me 
her government employee blank look and said she would not be able to 
complete my paperwork without my SS number.

Such will it be with Larry Ellison's Oraclecard. I just hope that, being 
Jewish, he gets picked up for extermination early on.

It's often the fucking Jews--Feinstein, Feingold, Lieberman, 
Ellison--who slavishly imitate the Nazis. How ironic to see Larry 
Ellison pushing the "Papers, please, macht schnell!" Orwellian nightmare.

And it will be "voluntary" only for the first couple of years (when the 
focus is on the schwarzes). Every store will use it (those which don't, 
like political bookstores and gun stores, will be classified as s.1510 
terrorist-facilitating businesses).


--Tim May
"The great object is that every man be armed and everyone who is able 
may have a gun." --Patrick Henry
"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be 
properly armed." --Alexander Hamilton




From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Sat Oct 20 17:54:41 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 19:54:41 -0500
Subject: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)
References: 
  
  <3.0.6.32.20011020150146.0081bb50@pop.sprynet.com>
  <20011020220950.12639.qmail@sidereal.kz>
  <3BD1FF36.4AADAA0D@cybershamanix.com>
  <20011020161344.A6471@navel.introspect>
Message-ID: <3BD21CB5.84505765@cybershamanix.com>


     Hmm, seems my DL is already out of date. WI is switching to a new
form of barcode:

http://www.dot.state.wi.us/dmv/digital.html

> License back contains information and new 2-D bar code
>
>                     The fee paid for the product is indicated
>                     on the top of the card. The
>                     two-dimensional bar code on the back of
>                     the document is coded with information
>                     from the front side of the card. The 2-D
>                     Bar Code is more durable and secure than
>                     the previously used magnetic stripe. The
>                     anatomical Gift Statement is covered with
>                     a special ink-permeable plastic which
>                     allows customers to write on this portion
>                     of the card.
>

     Looks like other states are doing the same thing. So much for
erasing the mag strip. But I suppose it would be fairly easy to paint
something over the
barcode like some plastic disolving solvent, making it unreadable.


--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver at cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html




From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Sat Oct 20 17:59:19 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 19:59:19 -0500
Subject: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)
References: 
  
  <3.0.6.32.20011020150146.0081bb50@pop.sprynet.com>
  <20011020220950.12639.qmail@sidereal.kz>
  <3BD1FF36.4AADAA0D@cybershamanix.com>
  <20011020161344.A6471@navel.introspect>
Message-ID: <3BD21DCC.40FAFB19@cybershamanix.com>


  According to the MI state page, MI has a a "strict" law limiting what
the mag stripe and barcode can contain, only the DL #, DOB, and
expiration date.
http://www.sos.state.mi.us/drlic/sos-365.html

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver at cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html




From keyser-soze at hushmail.com  Sat Oct 20 20:50:37 2001
From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 20:50:37 -0700
Subject: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)
Message-ID: <200110210350.f9L3ob842642@mailserver1.hushmail.com>


At 09:54 PM 10/20/2001 -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote:
    Hmm, one of these would be handy.
http://www.eltroncards.com/printers/p520.htm

Nahh... probably too expensive and difficult to purchase.  All you need is an ALPS dye-sub printer.  Quality is photo.  The 1300/2300 models can be had for about $100-150 on eBay.  The paper tray folds down to allow a straight path past the print heads.  ID card, laminate stock and CDs are easily accomodated.  

You can even produce watermark overlays (great for state seals) by peeling the barcode cassette ID from a consumed black cartridge and pasting it over the "color" (e.g., metallic silver, gold or transparent) cartridge you want for a water mark.  The printer scans the cartridges when you close the cover and will think the color overlay cartridge is black.




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Sat Oct 20 18:09:58 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 21:09:58 -0400
Subject: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)
References: 
  
  <3.0.6.32.20011020150146.0081bb50@pop.sprynet.com>
  <20011020220950.12639.qmail@sidereal.kz>
  <3BD1FF36.4AADAA0D@cybershamanix.com>
  <20011020161344.A6471@navel.introspect>
  <3BD21CB5.84505765@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <3BD22066.C1D2306B@acmenet.net>


Harmon Seaver wrote:
> 
>      Hmm, seems my DL is already out of date. WI is switching to a new
> form of barcode:
<<< 2-D barcode >>>
>      Looks like other states are doing the same thing. So much for
> erasing the mag strip. But I suppose it would be fairly easy to paint
> something over the
> barcode like some plastic disolving solvent, making it unreadable.

NYS has had these for years. (State motto: always leading in police
technology.)

My DL's barcode suffered just the sort of mishap you describe---solvent
over the plastic, discoloring it and making it unscannable. I've caught
a lot of crap from pigs who try to scan it into the little boxes in
their oinkmobiles, but no official censure or fine has come down. YMMV.

SRF

-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Oct 20 19:21:41 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 21:21:41 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3BD21CB5.84505765@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: 



On Sat, 20 Oct 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote:

>      Looks like other states are doing the same thing. So much for
> erasing the mag strip. But I suppose it would be fairly easy to paint
> something over the
> barcode like some plastic disolving solvent, making it unreadable.

Defacing a state DL is a felony in most places. You could get away with a
shrug of the shoulders if the mag stripe was bad. The same can't be said
of a barcode buried behind platic.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From tcmay at got.net  Sat Oct 20 21:29:26 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 21:29:26 -0700
Subject: Read a book and get banned from an airline....
In-Reply-To: <014d01c159e2$1ce81fa0$03d36b3f@pacer.com>
Message-ID: <360576F4-C5DC-11D5-8249-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Saturday, October 20, 2001, at 08:40 PM, Jon Beets wrote:

> http://www.citypaper.net/articles/101801/news.godfrey.shtml
>
>

Try to keep up, will you.

We discussed this exact article and event in a dozen posts a few days 
ago.


--Tim May
"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: What would things 
have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to 
make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive?" 
--Alexander Solzhenitzyn, Gulag Archipelago




From reeza at hawaii.rr.com  Sun Oct 21 00:36:02 2001
From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 21:36:02 -1000
Subject: New kind of FUD :-)
In-Reply-To: 
References: <637a0278b2edf7175f8de2dea2f57004@cypherpunks.to>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011020213511.02cf9a40@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com>


At 03:36 PM 10/20/01 -0700, Sandy Sandfort wrote:
 >
 >Now HERE is where you need that microwave.



Fucking spammers are getting even more creative these days.




From Freeadultmembership12s at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 21 09:39:18 2001
From: Freeadultmembership12s at yahoo.com (Freeadultmembership12s at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 21:39:18 -1900
Subject: FREE ADULT DEAL               WEDYBR
Message-ID: <0000732562f2$0000003f$00001e4c@mta445.mail.yahoo.com>


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Tonya 





From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Sat Oct 20 19:54:31 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 21:54:31 -0500
Subject: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)
References: 
Message-ID: <3BD238C6.DA28DC7B@cybershamanix.com>


    Hmm, one of these would be handy.
http://www.eltroncards.com/printers/p520.htm

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver at cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html




From measl at mfn.org  Sat Oct 20 20:00:05 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 22:00:05 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <20011020220950.12639.qmail@sidereal.kz>
Message-ID: 



On 20 Oct 2001, Dr. Evil wrote:

> > Do different states use different formats for the data on the magstrip?

I believe they are all using ABA encoding.  Of course, I could also be
wrong :-)

> Do all states even have magstrips?

Again, I may be wrong, but IIRC, there is now n active effort to
standardize the physical properties of licenses.  Not long ago, we had
such a diversity of formas that it was impossible to detect real from
fake.  For example, until recently, the New York license was literally a
piece of paper (with no photo!), and the New Mexico license was the size
of the _insert_ you would normally see on a laminated card.

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Oct 20 20:05:59 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 22:05:59 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Intelligent source?
In-Reply-To: <001401c159d7$ad58c040$3872ba8c@computer>
Message-ID: 



On Sat, 20 Oct 2001, Donald J. Coones wrote:

> Please point to a strictly natural process that creates infoormation. 

Sex. Chemistry.

> What evidence is there that infoormation, such as that in DNA, could ever assemble itself? 
> What about the 4,000 books of coded infoormation that are in a tiny part of each of your 100 trillion cells? 
> If astronomers received an intelligent signal from some distant galaxy, most people would conclude that it came from an intelligent source. 
> Why then doesn't the vast infoormation sequence in the DNA molecule of just a bacteria also imply an intelligent source? 

Might want to check into B-Z Reactions as well. Prigogine's work is pretty
interesting. He has a book called "Order Out of Chaos" you might want to
get. He got the Nobel in something like '78 for chemistry.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From drevil at sidereal.kz  Sat Oct 20 15:09:50 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil)
Date: 20 Oct 2001 22:09:50 -0000
Subject: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011020150146.0081bb50@pop.sprynet.com> (message
  from David Honig on Sat, 20 Oct 2001 15:01:46 -0700)
References: 
  
  <3.0.6.32.20011020150146.0081bb50@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <20011020220950.12639.qmail@sidereal.kz>


> You mean the magstripe on your license still carries information? 
> Give that man a magnet.

There's an even simpler alternative: Sure, CA licenses may have this
mag strip, but the format is not universal throughout the world, or
even the US.  Carry your passport, which doesn't have a mag strip
(last time I checked).  Carry a foreign drivers license.  Do you know
how easy it is to get a drvers license in some foreign countries?
They should be valid ID for a bar in California.  Next time I'm in
some unknown little third world country I will make a point of picking
up an official government-issued id.  "Yes, Mr. Bouncer, this is my
government-issued photo ID.  Yes, Tajikistan is very cold this time of
year."

As for legality of it, it may be legal but it's a sleazy thing to do.
I'm sure we are going to see more of this.  Larry Ellison may not get
his exact dream to come true, but there will certainly be real-time ID
verification databases with good net connections, so the teller at the
bank will be able to swipe your ID and see your photo come up on his
screen.  This makes forging an ID essentially impossible, unless you
can also hack into the DB in some way.

> Do different states use different formats for the data on the magstrip?

Do all states even have magstrips?




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sat Oct 20 20:11:13 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 22:11:13 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3BD23895.75368487@acmenet.net>
Message-ID: 



On Sat, 20 Oct 2001, Steve Furlong wrote:

> Jim, I'm going to have to call bullshit on that. A few minutes' checking
> (google and the revised code pages of a handful of states) shows that
> defacing a DL generally seems to be a violation, not even a misdemeanor.

Then you didn't look very hard at all.

Look into the 'fake license' laws for your state, they include defacing
such as replacing the photograph and such. That will also include the mag
stripe and the bar code.

You can go to jail for several years for defacing a license. In Texas it's
illegal to photocopy it except for official or business purposes.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sat Oct 20 20:14:16 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 22:14:16 -0500
Subject: Google Search: defacing driver license
Message-ID: <3BD23D88.1EF5EFCE@ssz.com>


http://www.google.com/search?q=defacing+driver+license
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From noreply at cypherpunks.to  Sat Oct 20 13:16:18 2001
From: noreply at cypherpunks.to (Anonymous via the Cypherpunks Tonga Remailer)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 22:16:18 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: New kind of FUD :-)
Message-ID: <637a0278b2edf7175f8de2dea2f57004@cypherpunks.to>


Got this junk mail:


Subject: CASH COPS PATROL AIRPORTS: for terrorism or tax collector?


NEW MICROCHIP CAN TRACK CASH!
A tiny new chip called "MEW", from Hitachi can be 
woven into paper money, and used for identification  
and surveillance tracking. The chip measures just 
0.4 millimeters on a side, and stores security codes.
Airport police, called CASH COPS, already in 
force, look forward to using the new technology.

TURN IN "OLD CASH" FOR "NEW CASH?"
Several governments have already been testing this 
technology and will probably be printing new money 
very soon. Most likely people will have to change 
the old currency for new currency. After that the 
old money will probably be illegal to even possess.
Governments will say it is a "State of Emergency" 
for controlling terrorists, and it will probably 
happen literally overnight. 

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500,000 ATMs worldwide.Total privacy.

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No name will appear on any bank wire transfer
No tax ID, credit checks, or references required. 

(pointers to spammer deleted)




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sat Oct 20 20:17:20 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 22:17:20 -0500
Subject: VAABC - Fake IDs
Message-ID: <3BD23E40.25A9A7A7@ssz.com>


http://www.abc.state.va.us/Education/fakeid/fakeid.htm
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From measl at mfn.org  Sat Oct 20 20:17:49 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 22:17:49 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



As much as I hate to reply to my own post, it was just (correctly) pointed
out to me that 15 years ago does not qualify as "not long ago" to most
people.  Whoops.


On Sat, 20 Oct 2001 measl at mfn.org wrote:

> Not long ago, we had
> such a diversity of formas that it was impossible to detect real from
> fake.  For example, until recently, the New York license was literally a
> piece of paper (with no photo!),

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From djcoones at berkshire.net  Sat Oct 20 19:25:37 2001
From: djcoones at berkshire.net (Donald J. Coones)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 22:25:37 -0400
Subject: Intelligent source?
Message-ID: <001401c159d7$ad58c040$3872ba8c@computer>

Please point to a strictly natural process that creates infoormation. 
What evidence is there that infoormation, such as that in DNA, could ever assemble itself? 
What about the 4,000 books of coded infoormation that are in a tiny part of each of your 100 trillion cells? 
If astronomers received an intelligent signal from some distant galaxy, most people would conclude that it came from an intelligent source. 
Why then doesn't the vast infoormation sequence in the DNA molecule of just a bacteria also imply an intelligent source? 

>

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From measl at mfn.org  Sat Oct 20 20:36:01 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 22:36:01 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: X-mail
Message-ID: 



http://www.xfiles.com/main_flash.html (popup for "fan mail")

	"Regarding fan letters and other mail to "The X-Files" and Ten
	Thirteen Productions:
 	Due to the recent security concerns, we will not be opening 
	any paper mail received at our production office from unknown
	sources. This includes fan mail, letters to all of the actors, 
	and other submissions to anyone at Ten Thirteen. For the time
	being, we request that you correspond to us via email, addressed
	to askthexfiles at fox.com. We will respond as much as we can.

	If you have mailed anything recently to the production office, 
	your letter may not be opened. Please re-send all letters through
	our email account."


If this keeps up, I'll have to pay my rent via EFT...

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From Jon.Beets at pacer.com  Sat Oct 20 20:40:21 2001
From: Jon.Beets at pacer.com (Jon Beets)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 22:40:21 -0500
Subject: Read a book and get banned from an airline....
Message-ID: <014d01c159e2$1ce81fa0$03d36b3f@pacer.com>

http://www.citypaper.net/articles/101801/news.godfrey.shtml

Jon Beets

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From measl at mfn.org  Sat Oct 20 20:49:31 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 22:49:31 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: assasinating larry(measl is a bushit artist)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011021133622.00a71580@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: 




On Sun, 21 Oct 2001, mattd wrote:

> 
> That was a blast from the not so distant past of one 'measl'...Now
> someone
> tries to put the fine words into effect
> with tools apparently feared and taken seriously by the oppressors and
> they
> get asked by someone called measl
> "did you take your meds today?" Thanks measles,thanks a hell of a lot.
> Is ja terranson just another blowhard pantsdown republican paintballer?

I know I shouldn't be doing this, but...

	Matt: AP is not yet possible.  Do your homework.  There is a long
road between theory and reality, and it is littered with the corpses of
people who couldn't tell the difference.

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From drevil at sidereal.kz  Sat Oct 20 15:52:29 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil)
Date: 20 Oct 2001 22:52:29 -0000
Subject: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3BD1FF36.4AADAA0D@cybershamanix.com> (message from Harmon
  Seaver on Sat, 20 Oct 2001 17:48:44 -0500)
References: 
  
  <3.0.6.32.20011020150146.0081bb50@pop.sprynet.com>
  <20011020220950.12639.qmail@sidereal.kz>
  <3BD1FF36.4AADAA0D@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <20011020225229.7090.qmail@sidereal.kz>


>       You know, I never even realized until right now that my DL has a mag
> strip. This is a new thing for WI, I think. Pretty sure my recent MN didn't
> have one. I guess the more interesting thing would be, before wiping it out,
> to figure out a way to read it.

I'm sure you can buy card readers that will read it, but I'm equally
sure you won't find anything sinister on it.  From what I understand,
all they put on the back is a machine-readable version of the text
that's on the front.  Nothing mysterious.

Sooner or later the strips will be replaced with some kind of
tamper-resistant smart chips, and then we will have a much harder time
knowing what's on the chip.

What's disgusting about Larry is that he wants to impose this on
everyone but himself.  When he checks into a hotel, do you think he
whips out the Larry credit card and drivers license?  No, of course
not.  He has an assistant who checks in for him.  He is completely
anonymous in this case.  When he gets on a commercial plane, does he
have to show id and have his bags searched and remove all metal
objects?  No, of course not because he doesn't fly on commercial
planes.  I'm sure that the actual number of times Larry has to show ID
or use his personal credit card per year are pretty close to zero.

Compare that to the average American, who will have to show
Larry-ID(tm) every time he does any kind of financial transaction,
travels anywhere, goes to a bar, goes to the gym, goes to a library,
rents a movie, signs up with an ISP, or anything.




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Sat Oct 20 19:53:09 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 22:53:09 -0400
Subject: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)
References: 
Message-ID: <3BD23895.75368487@acmenet.net>


Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 20 Oct 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote:
> 
> >      Looks like other states are doing the same thing. So much for
> > erasing the mag strip. But I suppose it would be fairly easy to paint
> > something over the
> > barcode like some plastic disolving solvent, making it unreadable.
> 
> Defacing a state DL is a felony in most places. You could get away with a
> shrug of the shoulders if the mag stripe was bad. The same can't be said
> of a barcode buried behind platic.

Jim, I'm going to have to call bullshit on that. A few minutes' checking
(google and the revised code pages of a handful of states) shows that
defacing a DL generally seems to be a violation, not even a misdemeanor.


-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From sunder at sunder.net  Sat Oct 20 20:04:13 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 23:04:13 -0400 (edt)
Subject: Calendar from Egypt: Image of WTC attack for month of
  Sept.
In-Reply-To: <005601c15996$d192cd70$03d36b3f@pacer.com>
Message-ID: 


Why bother.  Just go to www.newsmax.com and you will see the type of
stories they have is one or two steps away from also having "Elvis
Lives" and "I fucked a girl from Jupiter" stories.   It's so yellow, it
makes the National Enquirer look bright white.

----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------

On Sat, 20 Oct 2001, Jon Beets wrote:

> Its odd that I cannot find any reference to this story anywhere in google...
> It seems that a story like this would be everywhere.. Might have to wait a
> few days in hopes to see more info.. Also the picture they have in the
> article is too small to make any details out...
> 
> Jon Beets
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "citizenQ" 
> To: 
> Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2001 11:44 AM
> Subject: Calendar from Egypt: Image of WTC attack for month of Sept.
> 
> 
> > http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/9/27/124953.shtml
> > 
> > "A calendar which was printed in Egypt and
> > for the month of September shows a
> > crashing passenger plane with Manhattan
> > and the Statue of Liberty as a backdrop --
> > and which was printed in May, a full three
> > months before the Sept. 11 terrorist
> > attacks on America -- has caused an
> > uproar in the Dutch town of Almere,
> > Netherlands, the newspaper De Telegraaf
> > reported yesterday."
> 
> 




From squid at panix.com  Sat Oct 20 20:07:24 2001
From: squid at panix.com (Yeoh Yiu)
Date: 20 Oct 2001 23:07:24 -0400
Subject: Google and the Net
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011009211043.009a7a00@pop.sprynet.com>
References: <3.0.6.32.20011009185040.0099be20@pop.sprynet.com>
  <910ab3ffda50b37fd079c10a14793d46@dizum.com>
  <3.0.6.32.20011009185040.0099be20@pop.sprynet.com>
  <3.0.6.32.20011009211043.009a7a00@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: 


David Honig  writes:

> At 11:23 PM 10/9/01 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >Huh? There's little to search with when it comes to images, unless
> >you pull from the surrounding content, which Google does.
> 
> But google doesn't save the images, including navigational images
> (which tend to be .gifs) nor does it -traversal -crawl
> 
> And the dynamic (CGI) site problem.

Dynamic sites should not be a problem,
unless they require users to submit forms
before they see the real content.

A google cache of a dynamic site eg omor.com 
might have something like

'This page Optimized for 216.239.46.66, googlebot(at)googlebot.com,
 using Googlebot/2.1 (+http://www.googlebot.com/bot.html) .

YY




From declan at well.com  Sat Oct 20 20:27:58 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 23:27:58 -0400
Subject: Google and the Net
In-Reply-To: ; from squid@panix.com on
  Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 11:07:24PM -0400
References: <3.0.6.32.20011009185040.0099be20@pop.sprynet.com>
  <910ab3ffda50b37fd079c10a14793d46@dizum.com>
  <3.0.6.32.20011009185040.0099be20@pop.sprynet.com>
  <3.0.6.32.20011009211043.009a7a00@pop.sprynet.com>
  
Message-ID: <20011020232758.A28023@cluebot.com>


But dynamic sites are a problem. Search engines are often
reluctant to index through cgi scripts because of the possibility
of infinite loops of on-the-fly generated pages with unique URLs.
Some folks call this the hidden web.

-Declan


On Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 11:07:24PM -0400, Yeoh Yiu wrote:
> David Honig  writes:
> 
> > At 11:23 PM 10/9/01 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> > >Huh? There's little to search with when it comes to images, unless
> > >you pull from the surrounding content, which Google does.
> > 
> > But google doesn't save the images, including navigational images
> > (which tend to be .gifs) nor does it -traversal -crawl
> > 
> > And the dynamic (CGI) site problem.
> 
> Dynamic sites should not be a problem,
> unless they require users to submit forms
> before they see the real content.
> 
> A google cache of a dynamic site eg omor.com 
> might have something like
> 
> 'This page Optimized for 216.239.46.66, googlebot(at)googlebot.com,
>  using Googlebot/2.1 (+http://www.googlebot.com/bot.html) .
> 
> YY




From memcy102001 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 20 21:34:11 2001
From: memcy102001 at yahoo.com (Email Center)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 23:34:11 -0500
Subject: Let US send your ad for YOU!
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From xeni at xeni.net  Sat Oct 20 23:58:32 2001
From: xeni at xeni.net (Xeni Jardin)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 23:58:32 -0700
Subject: Sorry about the snowflakes + swami dust.(Was RE: Assault
  Donuts)
In-Reply-To: <3BD22951.C1892BDF@synthesia.cz>
Message-ID: 


> My Norcal culture-informant has forwarded
> a picture of a sign from a 
> bathroom which reads in red serif:
>
> "Due to recent world events,
> please clean up all body powder
> before leaving the locker room"

Other than the fact that a number of the scares are very real, the whole thing
keeps feeling more and more like a bad Monty Python episode. Friday's British
Medical Journal, cited in another AP anthrax roundup story below, describes the
free-floating bioterror anxiety as "mass sociogenic illness." As Ken Alibek
testified before the House this week, the primary desired effect is
psychological disruption, not body count...

<<...An Australian lawmaker's office was sealed off amid confusion over ashes
from a Hindu temple, and American Express apologized for sending plastic
snowflakes to Swedish customers as anthrax scares multiplied worldwide on
Friday....

Parliament security officers in Australia's New South Wales state sealed off the
office of a lawmaker after a worker found a package full of ashes postmarked
from the ``Wandering Swamy of Arunchala Hills.''

The package, the lawmaker later explained, was holy ash from a swami he met
during a recent trip to India.

American Express Co. said Friday it will send letters of apology to some 40,000
Swedish card holders who received a promotional Christmas mailing containing an
envelope with plastic snowflakes marked ``spread these out.'' The mailing
prompted angry phone calls.

``We understand that people are upset,'' said spokeswoman Gunnel Engberg. ``They
complained that the timing was inadequate, not that it was dangerous in any
way.'' >>






From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Sat Oct 20 21:03:05 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 00:03:05 -0400
Subject: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)
References: 
  <3BD238C6.DA28DC7B@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <3BD248F9.375E6FD5@acmenet.net>


Harmon Seaver wrote:
> 
>     Hmm, one of these would be handy.
> http://www.eltroncards.com/printers/p520.htm

Yah, but it comes with only Windows drivers!

No prices given, either. That's a bad sign.

-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From staff at wirelessdeveloper.com  Sat Oct 20 21:40:42 2001
From: staff at wirelessdeveloper.com (The WirelessDeveloper Team)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 00:40:42 -0400
Subject: Your WirelessDeveloper Password
Message-ID: <3BC7495900001BC9@mail.wirelessdeveloper.com> (added by mail.wirelessdeveloper.com)


This email has been sent automatically by The WirelessDeveloper System

Username: cypherpunks at toad.com
Password: W5m5oiWiy5fG

Go to http://www.wirelessdeveloper.com/login.asp?email=cypherpunks at toad.com and enter your username and password to log on to the WirelessDeveloper site.

Thank You!
The WirelessDeveloper Team




From drevil at sidereal.kz  Sat Oct 20 18:30:44 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil)
Date: 21 Oct 2001 01:30:44 -0000
Subject: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011020182831.007f66f0@pop.sprynet.com> (message
  from David Honig on Sat, 20 Oct 2001 18:28:31 -0700)
References: <3BD1FF36.4AADAA0D@cybershamanix.com>
   
  <3.0.6.32.20011020150146.0081bb50@pop.sprynet.com>
  <20011020220950.12639.qmail@sidereal.kz>
  <3BD1FF36.4AADAA0D@cybershamanix.com>
  <3.0.6.32.20011020182831.007f66f0@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <20011021013044.32104.qmail@sidereal.kz>


> >Sooner or later the strips will be replaced with some kind of
> >tamper-resistant smart chips, and then we will have a much harder time
> >knowing what's on the chip.
> 
> Only when microwave ovens are outlawed. :-)

Hey, it's easy to destroy something, much harder to read from it.
Also, this chip will need to communicate with other devices all the
time so if your chip is munched, the card will be pretty useless.
Coming soon to a country near you!




From info at inkatyou.com  Sat Oct 20 23:55:43 2001
From: info at inkatyou.com (Customer Support)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 02:55:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Ink Cartridges
Message-ID: <-426226971.1003647803858.JavaMail.administrator@lp1>

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From shopityourway at shopityourway.com  Sat Oct 20 20:14:11 2001
From: shopityourway at shopityourway.com (SPS Cellular)
Date: 21 Oct 2001 03:14:11 -0000
Subject: You are 3 simple steps away from your FREE phone!
Message-ID: <20011021031411.17545.qmail@shopityourway.com>

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From shopityourway at shopityourway.com  Sat Oct 20 20:14:11 2001
From: shopityourway at shopityourway.com (SPS Cellular)
Date: 21 Oct 2001 03:14:11 -0000
Subject: You are 3 simple steps away from your FREE phone!
Message-ID: <20011021031411.17541.qmail@shopityourway.com>

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From anonymous at remailer.havenco.com  Sat Oct 20 20:52:40 2001
From: anonymous at remailer.havenco.com (Anonymous User)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 03:52:40 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Zen Terrorism
Message-ID: <629c945ad120d72a53b527626e8e4108@remailer.havenco.com>


Does the color blue represent the spores contained in this letter?
If so, why does blue hate

If the sky falls, will it be blue again?
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tabla bin Rasa" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2001 3:14 AM
Subject: Zen Terrorism


> Zen Terrorism: sending random letters which say, "No anthrax here.
> Have a nice day."




From staff at wirelessdeveloper.com  Sun Oct 21 00:55:35 2001
From: staff at wirelessdeveloper.com (The WirelessDeveloper Team)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 03:55:35 -0400
Subject: Your WirelessDeveloper Password
Message-ID: <3BC7495900001BCF@mail.wirelessdeveloper.com> (added by mail.wirelessdeveloper.com)


This email has been sent automatically by The WirelessDeveloper System

Username: cypherpunks at toad.com
Password: W5m5oiWiy5fG

Go to http://www.wirelessdeveloper.com/login.asp?email=cypherpunks at toad.com and enter your username and password to log on to the WirelessDeveloper site.

Thank You!
The WirelessDeveloper Team




From offers at mail20.specialofferscentral.com  Sun Oct 21 02:13:19 2001
From: offers at mail20.specialofferscentral.com (Special Offers Central)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 05:13:19 -0400
Subject: An Exclusive Members Only Offer!
Message-ID: <200110210913.FAA21778@mail24.specialofferscentral.com>

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From freecasinocash1 at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 21 08:46:18 2001
From: freecasinocash1 at yahoo.com (freecasinocash1 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 08:46:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: FREE money in your Sportsbook/Casino account
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From hakkin at sarin.com  Sun Oct 21 08:52:11 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 08:52:11 -0700
Subject: CIA Politics of Assassination
Message-ID: <3BD2EF2B.F5D72A4A@sarin.com>


Sunday October 21 8:48 AM ET

        CIA Reportedly Gets Authority to
        Hunt Down Bin Laden

                           WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President
                           Bush (news - web sites) last month
                           gave the CIA (news - web sites) it
                           broadest authority yet to conduct lethal
                           covert action against Osama bin Laden
                           (news - web sites) and his al Qaeda
                           network, The Washington Post
                           reported in its Sunday edition.

        The newspaper, quoting unidentified senior government
        officials, said Bush signed an order, known as an
        intelligence finding, that directed the CIA to undertake to
        sweeping and deadly covert action against bin Laden and his
        network.

        The finding specifically called for the destruction of bin
        Laden and al Qaeda, who are the prime suspects in the
        Sept. 11 attacks on New York and Washington, the Post
        said.

        ``The gloves are off. The president has given the agency the
        green light to do whatever is necessary. Lethal operations
        that were unthinkable pre-Sept. 11 are now underway,'' the
        newspaper quoted a senior official as saying.

        The finding also gave the CIA an additional $1 billion to
        apply toward its anti-terror campaign, most of which will
        fund covert action aimed at taking out bin Laden's
        communications, security apparatus and infrastructure, the
        Post said.

        The operations were to include a high degree of
        coordination between the CIA and military units, to give
        Bush the power to rapidly dispatch troops based on the
        newest and best information from the intelligence agency.

        Soon after the attacks, in which hijackers crashed
        commercial airliners into the twin towers of the World
        Trade Center and the Pentagon (news - web sites), Bush
        said bin Laden was ``wanted dead or alive.''

        Though all U.S. presidents since Gerald Ford have signed
        an executive order prohibiting the CIA or other agencies
        from getting involved in political assassinations, there is
        agreement among some CIA and White House lawyers that
        the ban does not apply in time of war, the newspaper said.

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011021/ts/attack_cia_binladen_dc_1.html




From imp_news_for_u at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 21 08:57:54 2001
From: imp_news_for_u at yahoo.com (imp_news_for_u at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 08:57:54
Subject: sounds crazy but it works
Message-ID: <659.234763.23594@server 02>



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If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months 
easily and comfortably, please read the following...THEN READ IT 
AGAIN and AGAIN!!! 

FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS 
WILL COME TRUE, GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS: 
=====Order all 5 reports shown on the list below ===== 
For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT 
YOU ARE ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name 
appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN 
ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail 
problems. 

When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 
reports. You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on 
your computer and resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5=$25.00. 
Within a few days you will receive, vie e-mail, each of the 5 
reports from these 5 different individuals. Save them on your 
computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 
1,000's of people who will order them from you. Also make a 
floppy of these reports and keep it on your desk in case 
something happen to your computer. 

IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed 
next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way 
other than what is instructed below in step '' 1 through 6 '' or 
you will loose out on majority of your profits. Once you 
understand the way this works, you will also see how it does not 
work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and 
if you alter, it will NOT work !!! People have tried to put their 
friends/relatives names on all five thinking they could get all 
the money. But it does not work this way. Believe us, we all have 
tried to be greedy and then nothing happened. So Do Not try to 
change anything other than what is instructed. Because if you do, 
it will not work for you. 
Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 

1.... After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this 
advertisement and REMOVE the name & address of the person in 
REPORT # 5. This person has made it through the cycle and is no 
doubt counting their fortune. 
2.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5. 
3.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4. 
4.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3. 
5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2 
6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. 
PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! 
========================================================== 
**** Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, 
and save it on your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. 

Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose any data. 
To assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 
reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing 
information which includes how to send bulk e-mails legally, 
where to find thousands of free classified ads and much more. 

There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going: 
METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY 
========================================================== 
Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it 
goes, and we will assume You and those involved send out only 
5,000 e-mails each. Let's also assume that the mailing receive 
only a 0.2% response (the response could be much better but lets 
just say it is only 0.2%. 
Also many people will send out hundreds of thousands e-mails 
instead of only 5,000 each). 

Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. 
With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for report # 1. 
Those 10 people responded by sending out 5,000 e-mail each for a 
total of 50,000. Out of those 50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded 
with orders. That's=100 people responded and ordered Report # 2. 
Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 
500,000 e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for 
Report # 3. Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a 
total of 5 million e-mails sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 
10,000 orders for Report # 4. Those 10,000 
people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000,000 (50 
million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for 
Report # 5 THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH=$500,000.00 (half 
million). 

Your total income in this example is: 
1..... $50 + 2..... $500 + 3..... $5,000 + 4 .... $50,000 + 
5..... $500,000 ........ Grand Total=$555,550.00 

NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGUREOUT THE WORST 
POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL 
STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY ! 
========================================================= 
REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF 
5,000 YOU MAILED TO. Dare to think for a moment what would happen 
if everyone or half or even one 4th of those people mailed 
100,000e-mails each or more? There are over 150 million people on 
the Internet worldwide and counting. Believe me, many people will 
do just that, and more! 

METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET 
======================================================= 
Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there are 
hundreds of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads 
on the Internet will easily get a larger response. We strongly 
suggest you start with Method # 1 and add METHOD # 2 as you go 
along. For every $5 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them 
the Report they ordered. That's it. Always provide same day 
service on all orders. This will guarantee that the e-mail they 
send out, with your name and address on it, will be prompt 
because they can not advertise until they receive the report. 
=========== AVAILABLE REPORTS ==================== 
ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: 
Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT 
accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at 
least 2 sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, Write 
the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are ordering, YOUR E-MAIL 
ADDRESS and your name and postal address. 

PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW : 

==================================================== 
REPORT # 1: 'The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the 
Net 

Order Report #1 from: 
J. Jacinto, P.O. Box 580219, Pleasant Prairie, WI 53158 USA
______________________________________________________ 
REPORT # 2: The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the Net 

Order Report # 2 from: 
Michelle Taylor, 13900 Leslie St, Aurora, ON Canada L4G 7C8 
_______________________________________________________ 
REPORT # 3: Secret to Multilevel marketing on the net 

Order Report # 3 from : 
CK, PO 2282, Inver Grove Heights, MN 55076, USA 
______________________________________________________________ 
REPORT # 4: How to become a millionaire utilizing MLM & the Net 
Order Report # 4 from: 
T.Torti, PO Box 2797, Olympic Valley, CA 96146, USA 
________________________________________________________________ 
REPORT #5: How to send out 0ne Million emails for free 

Order Report # 5 From: 
S.Santos, 32 Cross Street, San Francisco, CA 94112 USA  
_______________________________________________________ 

$$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$ 
Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: 
=== If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 
2 
weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do. 
=== After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that 
you 
should receive 100 orders or more for REPORT # 2. If you did not, 
continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. 
=== Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU 
CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the 
cash will continue to roll in ! 
THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: 
Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in 
front of a Different report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS 
by watching which report people are ordering from you. IF YOU 
WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAILS AND 
START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. 

There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate from this 
business !! 

====================================================== 
FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: You have 
just received information that can give you financial freedom for 
the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF 
EFFORT. You can make more money in the next few weeks and months 
than you have ever imagined. Follow the program EXACTLY AS 
INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any way. It works exceedingly 
well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting 
report after you have put your name and address in Report #1 and 
moved others to #2 ...........# 5 as instructed above. One of the 
people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and 
your name will be on every one of them. Remember though, the more 
you send out the more potential customers you will reach. 

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials 
and opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO 
YOU NOW ! 

============ MORE TESTIMONIALS ================ 
"My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am 
an accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty 
good money. When I received this program I grumbled to Jody about 
receiving ''junk mail''. I made fun of the whole thing, spouting 
my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I 
''knew'' it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my supposed 
intelligence and few days later she jumped in with both feet. I 
made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old ''I told 
you so'' on her when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was 
on me! Within 3 weeks she had received 50 responses. Within the 
next 45 days she had received total $ 147,200.00 ........... all 
cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jody in her ''hobby''. 
Mitchell Wolf M.D., Chicago, Illinois 
====================================================== 
''Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make 
up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I 
am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that 
there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at 
least get my money back''. '' I was surprised when I found my 
medium size post office box crammed with orders. I made 
$319,210.00in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal 
is that it does not matter where people live. There simply isn't 
a better investment with a faster return and so big." Dan 
Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada 
======================================================= 
''I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I 
wondered if I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no 
idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I 
was e-mailed again by someone else.........11 months passed then 
it luckily came again...... I did not delete this one! I made 
more than $490,000 on my first try and all the money came within 
22 weeks." Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y. 
======================================================= 
''It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money 
with little cost to you. I followed the simple instructions 
carefully and within 10 days the money started to come in. My 
first month I made $20,560.00 and by the end of third month my 
total cash count was 362,840.00. Life is beautiful, Thanks to the 
internet.". Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand 
======================================================= 
ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON 'YOUR' ROAD TO 
FINANCIAL FREEDOM ! 
======================================================= 
If you have any questions of the legality of this program, 
contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, 
Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, 
Washington, D.C.







 
 
 
 
 




From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Sun Oct 21 07:06:35 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 09:06:35 -0500
Subject: IP: Beyond Carnivore: FBI Eyes Packet Taps (fwd)
References: <200110211343.f9LDhsf27858@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <3BD2D66A.ACE62D91@cybershamanix.com>


       All the more reason to use Linux routers and firewalls.
Especially if Cisco pulls a Larry Ellison.

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver at cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html




From sunder at sunder.net  Sun Oct 21 06:14:11 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 09:14:11 -0400 (edt)
Subject: Why Plan-9?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Why Plan-9?  I'd say go with OpenBSD. :)  Built in crypto, built in
firewall, secure on installation without you needing to tweak stuff.  Hell
you can even tell it to encrypt swap pages.


----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------

On Sun, 21 Oct 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> 
> On Sun, 21 Oct 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote:
> 
> >        All the more reason to use Linux routers and firewalls.
> > Especially if Cisco pulls a Larry Ellison.
> 
> Nope, Plan 9.
> 
> http://plan9.bell-labs.com




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sun Oct 21 07:17:13 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 09:17:13 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: IP: Beyond Carnivore: FBI Eyes Packet Taps (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3BD2D66A.ACE62D91@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: 



On Sun, 21 Oct 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote:

>        All the more reason to use Linux routers and firewalls.
> Especially if Cisco pulls a Larry Ellison.

Nope, Plan 9.

http://plan9.bell-labs.com


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sun Oct 21 07:24:04 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 09:24:04 -0500
Subject: Large candy purchases investigated by FBI
Message-ID: <3BD2DA84.30229ACF@ssz.com>


http://www.bergen.com/news/candy1200110207.htm
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From hakkin at sarin.com  Sun Oct 21 09:26:42 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 09:26:42 -0700
Subject: Vietnam to US: charge your citizens with terrorism
Message-ID: <3BD2F742.C1AF59CB@sarin.com>


First Israel, now Vietnam.  Only Vietnam wants the US to
charge US citizens with terroristm against Vietnam.

Curiouser and curiouser.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-102101viet.story
Excerpts:

As the United States presses its war against terrorism,
Vietnam is demanding that American officials extend the
crackdown to an immigrant group they say has sponsored
Southeast Asian bombing attempts from its headquarters
in a nondescript Garden Grove office building.

..

 "Vietnam has asked the
U.S. to stop harboring, tolerating or supporting that
group. It should punish those who commit terrorist acts
on Vietnam . . . like Nguyen and his group."
..

Though it is not illegal for U.S. citizens to call for the
overthrow of a foreign government, it is against the law
for Americans to become involved in the effort to do so.


-----
Domestic terrorism is the only way to remind Americans that they
are responsible for what their government does.




From mikecabot at fastcircle.com  Sun Oct 21 06:45:23 2001
From: mikecabot at fastcircle.com (mikecabot at fastcircle.com)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 09:45:23 -0400
Subject: IP: Beyond Carnivore: FBI Eyes Packet Taps (fwd)
Message-ID: <200110211343.f9LDhsf27858@slack.lne.com>


The info in the Interactive Week article is basically the same info 
from the National Journal article previously posted here, which leads 
me to suspect that Baker is simply repeating the same rumor to 
everyone who'll write about it.

But..... it is interesting that they say "router manufacturers" here. 

I believe that what Baker "heard" was simply the FBI going out to 
people like Cisco and some of the larger network providers and people 
responsible for provisioning NAPs and saying "we want you to 
implement the additions to IPSEC that the IETF refused to implement".

(For background, the FBI, DOJ, DoD -- the "usual suspects" -- had 
presented a series of recommendations to the IETF last year that 
would create "packet accounting" features in IPSEC protocols and 
future IP protocols.... they were rejected by the IETF, which stated 
at the time that the idea of creating built-in exploits to a protocol 
designed for security was counterintuitive. See http://www.ietf.org 
for more info.)

Now, it is entirely possible that given the public pressure arising 
from the 9-11 attacks, individual manufacturers (read" "Cisco") might 
bow to such pressure, and build-in some of these features into future 
products AND into future software builds for existing products.

So, I think this is what Baker "heard" -- not that the FBI has any 
such system in place or would have one anytime soon... rather, that 
the FBI will re-present these proposals one-on-one with Cisco and a 
few  network providers, and in effect, get the impact of their 
previously-rejected proposals implemented to cover maybe as much as 
80% or more of the traffic in the domestic US. And besides access to 
the majority of USA packet traffic, they would have access to some 
part of international traffic too... it's beyong the scope of this 
email, but keep in mind that many non-USA NAPs are really connected 
to one another VIA the USA..... in effect, bug the USA NAPs, and you 
get access to almost all the traffic from Pacific Rim countries like 
Japan, Australia, etc. and you get access to small parts of Western 
Europe also, not to mention parts of Africa and the Middle East that 
uplink via satellite instead of a wired connection.

An enterprising reporter might make an interesting article out of 
trying to track down exactly what parts of the IETF proposal the FBI 
wants (Declan?) and someone could post copies of the draft proposal 
as first released at ietf.org (JYA?). But I digress :)


> Original Message from Sun, 21 Oct 2001 14:14:50  0200 (MET DST):> 
> 
> 
> -- Eugen* Leitl leitl
> ______________________________________________________________
> ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204
> 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 06:07:48 -0400
> From: David Farber 
> Reply-To: farber at cis.upenn.edu
> To: ip-sub-1 at majordomo.pobox.com
> Subject: IP: Beyond Carnivore: FBI Eyes Packet Taps
> 
> 
> >
> >From: Monty Solomon 
> >Subject: Beyond Carnivore: FBI Eyes Packet Taps
> >
> >
> >October 18, 2001
> >Beyond Carnivore: FBI Eyes Packet Taps
> >By  Max Smetannikov
> >
> >Expect the FBI to expand its Internet wiretapping program, says a
> >source familiar with the plan.
> >
> >Stewart Baker, a partner with law firm Steptoe & Johnson, is a 
former
> >general counsel to the National Security Agency. He says the FBI 
has
> >spent the last two years developing a new surveillance architecture
> >that would concentrate Internet traffic in several key locations
> >where all packets, not just e-mail, could be wiretapped. It is now
> >planning to begin implementing this architecture using the powers 
it
> >has under existing wiretapping laws.
> >
> >http://www.interactiveweek.com/article/0,3658,s%3D605%26a%
253D16678,00.asp
> 
> 
> For archives see:
> http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/
> 
> 
> 
> 

_______________________________________________________________________________
WANT YOUR OWN FREE AND SECURE WEB EMAIL ADDRESS?

Visit http://www.fastcircle.com 




From jannes at kali.com.cn  Sun Oct 21 02:55:25 2001
From: jannes at kali.com.cn (jannes at kali.com.cn)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 09:55:25 GMT
Subject: Tired of being in DEBT??? 1851810
Message-ID: <1003648137.0813671375@mail1.kali.com.cn>


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From honig at sprynet.com  Sun Oct 21 10:24:31 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 10:24:31 -0700
Subject: VAABC - Fake IDs
In-Reply-To: <3BD23E40.25A9A7A7@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011021102431.00827d10@pop.sprynet.com>


At 10:17 PM 10/20/01 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
>http://www.abc.state.va.us/Education/fakeid/fakeid.htm
>-- 

"Offense of moral turpitude or a
conviction of possessing,
manufacturing, using or selling fake IDs
will appear on your permanent criminal
record. "

Sounds like something you'd tell children.


Moral Turpitude ---see "Welcome to the United States"
by Frank Zappa on the Yellow Shark album.

Do any of the following apply to you?




 






  







From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sun Oct 21 08:30:57 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 10:30:57 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Why Plan-9?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Sun, 21 Oct 2001, Sunder wrote:
 
> Why Plan-9?  I'd say go with OpenBSD. :)  Built in crypto, built in
> firewall,

 You mean there are OS'es that don't?

> secure on installation without you needing to tweak stuff.

 You mean all(!) OS'es don't do this already?

> Hell you can even tell it to encrypt swap pages.

 You mean all OS'es don't allow you to mount individual filesystems
        through an encryption layer?

 - Authored by same Bell-Labs crew that wrote Unix in the first place.
   Plan 9 was specifically designed to 'fix' the problems of Unix. It
   of course has its own problems. There is active support by the
   authors currently.

 - Has had many years of production use internal to Bell - Labs.

 - Open Source, no license required to build and distribute your own
   version.

 - Fully distributed in both process and file space

 - Has a unique three (3) kernel approach; I/O - Auth, File, Process

 - No 'root' user.

 - Supports IPv6 (default), IPv4, and IL (it's customer to Plan 9).

 - Filesystem is fully transitive, everything is treated like a file.
   This creates some unique opportunities to make publicly shared but
   privately maintaned resource pools. Hangar 18 is an attempt to do
   just this.

 - The filesystem is structured and featured in such a way that RDBMS
   sorts of solutions are moot. These functions are built into the
   filesystem itself (though not through SQL compliance).

 - Encryption (currently DES, needs fixing) built right in.

 - Doesn't use passwords, Instead it uses tickets (ie certificates).

 - Anonymity features with respect to both process and file space are
   not going to be hard to build in, Pike estimated at one points about
   150 lines of rc besides the actual crypto algorithm.

 - Global mobile log-in out of the box.

 - Has a wickedly new GUI.

 - Supports Inferno (run-time included) so that you can access one of the
   leading 'Internet Appliance' work environments. Plan 9 isn't real-time,
   but Inferno is. (It makes my Lego Mindstorm look like a directory tree, 
   makes programming real-time hardware operations rather easy)

http://plan.bell-labs.com

Another Open Source OS to look at for inspiration is unununium. It is a
kernel-less OS, everything is a module that can be loaded in/out at
run time as required. Has some very interesting applications with respect
to distributed computing. There is a working implimentation available from
Source Forge.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From symposium at lumiweb.com  Sun Oct 21 10:36:56 2001
From: symposium at lumiweb.com (symposium at lumiweb.com)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 10:36:56
Subject: 12th Bioluminescence & Chemiluminescence Symposium; Univ of Cambridge, UK; 5-9 April 2002
Message-ID: 


=====================================================

If you have received this email in error or do not wish to receive
further information about the Symposium please reply to this message
with the word REMOVE in the subject line. 
Please accept our apologies for troubling you. Thank you.

=====================================================


12th INTERNATIONAL SYMPOSIUM ON BIOLUMINESCENCE & CHEMILUMINESCENCE
UNIVERSITY OF CAMBRIDGE, UK;  5-9 APRIL 2002

========================================================

DEADLINE DATE FOR ABSTRACTS ONLY 4 WEEKS AWAY 

   ----- Monday 19 November 2001 -----

========================================================


SYMPOSIUM WEBSITE: http://www.Lumiweb.com

SYMPOSIUM DATES:  Friday-Tuesday, 5-9 APRIL 2002

VENUE:  Robinson College, University of Cambridge, UK

ABSTRACT DEADLINE: 19 November 2001

EARLY REGISTRATION DEADLINE: 19 November 2001

GENERAL ENQUIRIES: Email: symposium at Lumiweb.com.


**********************  NEW *****************************

SUPPORT FOR YOUNG SCIENTISTS BY 
INTERNATIONAL SOCIETY FOR BIOLUMINESCENCE & CHEMILUMINESCENCE
DETAILS AVAILABLE at http://www.unibo.it/isbc

*********************************************************


This symposium, which is held in association with the International
Society for Bioluminescence & Chemiluminescence (ISBC), is the next
in the biennial series that was started in 1978.

Please visit the Symposium web site http://www.Lumiweb.com as it has
just been further updated and now contains full information about the
meeting.

The Symposium content will again be broad, and include all aspects of
fundamental and basic science as well as the wide range of
applications that now depend on these technologies.

The Symposium will be held 5-9 April 2002 at Robinson College,
University of Cambridge, UK. Robinson College is a modern college 
well designed to host conferences and has excellent en suite 
accommodation. All Symposium activities will be held at the College. 
More details about Robinson College can be found at 
http://www.robinson.cam.ac.uk.

The Symposium will start the evening of Friday 5 April and finish at
midday Tuesday 9 April.  Registration and accommodation details are
available at http://www.Lumiweb.com. Those who register for the
Symposium by Monday 19 November 2001 (this date is also the Abstract
deadline date) will get a preferential rate and current Members of
the ISBC are entitled to a further reduction.

PRESENTATIONS
The Symposium will consist of presentations in both oral and poster 
format.

EXHIBITION
There will be an exhibition of instruments and reagents. 
Commercial Workshops are also planned.
Further details, please enquire: symposium at Lumiweb.com

ABSTRACTS
Abstracts are invited for oral and poster presentations. 
Deadline for Abstracts: Monday 19 November 2001. 
See http://www.Lumiweb.com for further information.
Accepted abstracts will be published in the journal "Luminescence"
(publisher, John Wiley & Sons).

SYMPOSIUM PROCEEDINGS PUBLICATION
Manuscripts will be invited from authors making presentations and
these will be published in a Proceedings volume, a copy of which 
will be sent after the Symposium -- and free-of-charge -- to each 
registered delegate.


SYMPOSIUM PROGRAMME
The International Society for Bioluminescence & Chemiluminescence
(ISBC) is taking responsibility for the scientific programme
(Programme Co-Chairs: Professor Tony Campbell (University of Wales
College of Medicine), Dr Phil Hill (University of Nottingham, UK) and
Professor Peter Herring (Southampton Oceanography Centre, UK) Past
President of ISBC). The DeLuca Prize sponsored by Berthold
Technologies http://www.berthold-online.com will be open to
presenters under the age of 35 years and will be judged by the
ISBC.


TOPICS FOR THE SYMPOSIUM WILL INCLUDE (but are not restricted to)

(A) BASIC SCIENCE OF BIOLUMINESCENCE & CHEMILUMINESCENCE:
Chemiluminescence:
>Detection, measurement and imaging of luminescent reactions 
>Chemistry of chemiluminescent reactions 
>Reaction mechanisms 
>Chemiluminescent labels, dioxetanes, acridans etc. 
>Oxygen and other free radicals 
>Standard light sources 

Bioluminescence: 
>Biochemistry of luminous organisms [firefly, Vibrio, Beneckea,
Renilla etc.] 
>Luciferases and luciferins 
>Photoproteins 
>Quorum sensing and autoinducers 
>Genetic engineering of bioluminescence enzymes 
>Circadian phenomena

Ultraweak luminescence:
>Phagocytosis 
>Cellular luminescence 

Organisms: 
>Oceanic bioluminescence 
>Behaviour and ecology of luminous species


(B) APPLICATIONS OF BIOLUMINESCENCE & CHEMILUMINESCENCE:

>Luminescent reporter genes including lux, luc
>Biosensors for microbial and environmental applications
>Green fluorescent protein (GFP) applications
>High-throughput screening using luminescence 
>Imaging techniques for cells, tissues and whole organisms
>Imaging of arrays
>Immunoassays 
>Blot hybridisation with chemiluminescence detection 
>Luminescence-coupled assays 
>Cellular luminescence in clinical medicine 
>Phagocytosis and disease 
>ATP assays (e.g. for hygiene of food, water, clinical samples) 
>Luminometers and instrumentation
>Imaging devices 
>Chemiluminescence and fluorescence for in-situ hybridisation 
>Use of luminescence as an educational tool
>Phagocytosis and cellular luminescence
>Ultra-weak chemiluminescence

=====================================================
=====================================================






From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sun Oct 21 08:52:32 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 10:52:32 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Why Plan-9?
In-Reply-To: <3BD2ED10.506E2A95@acmenet.net>
Message-ID: 



On Sun, 21 Oct 2001, Steve Furlong wrote:

> - Encrypted file systems: I want my main server to have TCFS or
> equivalent, so if the machine is seized the feebs would see a tiny boot
> partition and a large, strongly-encrypted main partition. I tried a few
> encrypted file systems a while back, and the couple I found for OBSD
> weren't there yet, either; they typically dumped core when I tried to
> use them. (I see that Dr Evil posted a message on this subject last May
> on a list archived at Geocrawler, so I guess the shortcoming hasn't been
> fixed since I last looked at it in depth.)

You can do this in Plan 9 and also spread the file around it's pieces
hither and yon...


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From measl at mfn.org  Sun Oct 21 09:23:19 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 11:23:19 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: IP: Beyond Carnivore: FBI Eyes Packet Taps (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3BD2D66A.ACE62D91@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: 



On Sun, 21 Oct 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote:

>        All the more reason to use Linux routers and firewalls.
> Especially if Cisco pulls a Larry Ellison.
> 
> --
> Harmon Seaver, MLIS

That's fine and dandy for ds1's, and maybe even enough for the majority of
fractional ds3 customers, but how are you going to apply this to people
with oc12 handoffs?  Even oc3 handoffs are going to be *really* difficult
boxes to build using COTS/PC technology.

 -- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Sun Oct 21 08:43:12 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 11:43:12 -0400
Subject: Why Plan-9?
References: 
Message-ID: <3BD2ED10.506E2A95@acmenet.net>


Sunder wrote:
> 
> Why Plan-9?  I'd say go with OpenBSD. :)  Built in crypto, built in
> firewall, secure on installation without you needing to tweak stuff.  Hell
> you can even tell it to encrypt swap pages.

I'd really like to use OBSD for my always-on server, but there are a few
shortcomings.

- New Java stuff: I need to have Java servlets, JSP, and all that rot
available from my web site, and last time I tried, a few months ago, the
new Java stuff just wasn't there yet. Eighty-five step installation
procedure which either didn't work quite right or was too much for my
tiny brain. (The procedure was actually for FBSD, but it didn't work
there, either, so the chances of getting it working on OBSD were
negligible.)

- Encrypted file systems: I want my main server to have TCFS or
equivalent, so if the machine is seized the feebs would see a tiny boot
partition and a large, strongly-encrypted main partition. I tried a few
encrypted file systems a while back, and the couple I found for OBSD
weren't there yet, either; they typically dumped core when I tried to
use them. (I see that Dr Evil posted a message on this subject last May
on a list archived at Geocrawler, so I guess the shortcoming hasn't been
fixed since I last looked at it in depth.)

(Yes, in theory I can work on either of these myself, but in practice
I'm already involved in two free projects and just can't spread any
thinner.)

Out-of-the-box OBSD seems less crackable than out-of-the-box Linux and
I'd like to use it, but it just doesn't have the two features I really
want. For now, I'll take my chances on securing my Linux server as best
I can.

-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From Jon.Beets at pacer.com  Sun Oct 21 10:12:07 2001
From: Jon.Beets at pacer.com (Jon Beets)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 12:12:07 -0500
Subject: Read a book and get banned from an airline....
References: <360576F4-C5DC-11D5-8249-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <002501c15a53$839ca0b0$03d36b3f@pacer.com>


Sorry I was gone and the mail server dropped some of my email..

Jon Beets


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tim May" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2001 11:29 PM
Subject: Re: Read a book and get banned from an airline....


> On Saturday, October 20, 2001, at 08:40 PM, Jon Beets wrote:
> 
> > http://www.citypaper.net/articles/101801/news.godfrey.shtml
> >
> >
> 
> Try to keep up, will you.
> 
> We discussed this exact article and event in a dozen posts a few days 
> ago.
> 
> 
> --Tim May
> "How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: What would things 
> have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to 
> make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive?" 
> --Alexander Solzhenitzyn, Gulag Archipelago




From measl at mfn.org  Sun Oct 21 10:50:22 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 12:50:22 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: assasinating larry (the movie)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011021183525.00a6d650@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: 



On Sun, 21 Oct 2001, mattd wrote:

> Matt: AP is not yet possible. Do your homework. There is a long road 
> between theory and reality, and it is littered with the corpses of people 
> who couldn't tell the difference. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson
> 
> You have no idea how glad I am to here that.Jim and carl may also be 
> suprised.

No, I don't think they'd be at all surprised: you were likely the first
:-D


> Now if you and sandy sanfort supply
> me with your meatspace adress Ill know where to send a defence subpoena.

I accept legal process at POB 4579, Fairview Heights, IL. 62208.

> The 
> victoria police seem to be dead ignorant.
> I know its not yet possible,thats why I used it in my online humour 
> column,now Im trapped in a kafka novel,HELP!

You aren't the only one trapped in that novel, although you may be the
only one here who didn't realize it.

I just _knew_ I was going to regret answering him...

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From roy at scytale.com  Sun Oct 21 11:01:43 2001
From: roy at scytale.com (Roy M. Silvernail)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 13:01:43 -0500
Subject: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <20011020220950.12639.qmail@sidereal.kz>
References: <3.0.6.32.20011020150146.0081bb50@pop.sprynet.com> (message 
  from David Honig on Sat, 20 Oct 2001 15:01:46 -0700)
Message-ID: <3BD2C737.11961.8830543@localhost>


On 20 Oct 2001, at 22:09, Dr. Evil wrote:

> Carry your passport, which doesn't have a mag strip
> (last time I checked).  

My US passport does have a magstrip.  It's embedded in the front 
cover, and must be read by a special device.  I've seen it scanned 
only once, when leaving Montreal to return home.  (point being, a 
driver's licence reader can't read passport magstrips)

At least one club in Minneapolis has a prominent sign stating they 
will not accept a US passport as ID unless it's accompanied by a 
"yellow slip", that being the document indicating that the person 
has applied for a state-issued ID card.  I've never taken the time to 
ask the reasoning behind this policy.

> > Do different states use different formats for the data on the
> > magstrip?
> 
> Do all states even have magstrips?

It's probably reasonable to assume the formats differ.  I haven't yet 
had the time to build up a magstripe reader and check mine, but 
Minnesota also puts a high-density barcode on the front of the 
license.  I have read that out, and it's name, address, DOB, licence 
class, a couple of fields I can't figure out and a final field that says 
"20 EXTRA BYTES HERE".  (yes, really)
--
           Roy M. Silvernail     [ ]     roy at scytale.com
DNRC Minister Plenipotentiary of All Things Confusing, Software Division
    PGP Key 0x1AF39331 :  71D5 2EA2 4C27 D569  D96B BD40 D926 C05E
                 Key available from pubkey at scytale.com
            I charge to process unsolicited commercial email




From baptista at pccf.net  Sun Oct 21 10:08:22 2001
From: baptista at pccf.net (baptista at pccf.net)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 13:08:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: New kind of FUD
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011021151940.00a6fd60@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: 


On Sun, 21 Oct 2001, mattd wrote:

> "Now HERE is where you need that microwave. "
> Thanks sandy,I dont know what we'd do without you. Whats the difference 
> between anal sex and a microwave?
> Only one browns your meat.

which one?

-- 
The dot.GOD Registry, Limited

http://www.dot-god.com/




From auto301094 at hushmail.com  Sun Oct 21 13:24:36 2001
From: auto301094 at hushmail.com (auto301094 at hushmail.com)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 13:24:36 -0700
Subject: IP: "U.S. On Verge of 'Electronic Martial Law' (fwd) 
Message-ID: <200110212024.f9LKObl33651@mailserver1.hushmail.com>

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From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Oct 20 20:54:57 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 13:54:57 +1000
Subject: assasinating larry(measl is a bushit artist)
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011021133622.00a71580@pop.useoz.com>


 > My belief is that every Congresscritter who voted to pass this USA Bill
 > should be tried and executed.

Amen.

 > As for the 600 "Arabic-looking" men (maybe a few women, I don't know)
 > being held without charges being filed in a timely way, I'll chortle if
 > even 10 of them become vengeance-seekers in the next 10 years.
 >
 > Someone held unjustly, without charges being filed, is morally obliged
 > to kill his oppressors.

Again, A-Fucking-Men!

 > --Tim May, Citizen-unit of of the once free United States
 > " The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood
 > of patriots & tyrants. "--Thomas Jefferson, 1787

-- 
Yours,
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

That was a blast from the not so distant past of one 'measl'...Now someone 
tries to put the fine words into effect
with tools apparently feared and taken seriously by the oppressors and they 
get asked by someone called measl
"did you take your meds today?" Thanks measles,thanks a hell of a lot.
Is ja terranson just another blowhard pantsdown republican paintballer?




From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Sun Oct 21 05:14:50 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 14:14:50 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: IP: Beyond Carnivore: FBI Eyes Packet Taps (fwd)
Message-ID: 




-- Eugen* Leitl leitl
______________________________________________________________
ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204
57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 06:07:48 -0400
From: David Farber 
Reply-To: farber at cis.upenn.edu
To: ip-sub-1 at majordomo.pobox.com
Subject: IP: Beyond Carnivore: FBI Eyes Packet Taps


>
>From: Monty Solomon 
>Subject: Beyond Carnivore: FBI Eyes Packet Taps
>
>
>October 18, 2001
>Beyond Carnivore: FBI Eyes Packet Taps
>By  Max Smetannikov
>
>Expect the FBI to expand its Internet wiretapping program, says a
>source familiar with the plan.
>
>Stewart Baker, a partner with law firm Steptoe & Johnson, is a former
>general counsel to the National Security Agency. He says the FBI has
>spent the last two years developing a new surveillance architecture
>that would concentrate Internet traffic in several key locations
>where all packets, not just e-mail, could be wiretapped. It is now
>planning to begin implementing this architecture using the powers it
>has under existing wiretapping laws.
>
>http://www.interactiveweek.com/article/0,3658,s%253D605%2526a%253D16678,00.asp


For archives see:
http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/




From hakkin at sarin.com  Sun Oct 21 14:16:41 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 14:16:41 -0700
Subject: Give this man a fake ID, and a 7-11 
Message-ID: <3BD33B39.F5B51EC6@sarin.com>


Since his defection after the air strikes began, Mohammad, now in
Pakistan, still fears for his life.
``I have so much more that I can tell you about the Taliban,'' he
claimed. ``But first I need to feel safe, far away from
Pakistan.''

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/011021/nysu005a_1.html




From hakkin at sarin.com  Sun Oct 21 14:25:35 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 14:25:35 -0700
Subject: And another one bites the dust, another one down, another one
  down
Message-ID: <3BD33D4F.7760CE3E@sarin.com>


http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011021/ts/attacks_anthrax.html

WASHINGTON (AP) - A District of
Columbia postal worker is ``gravely
ill'' with inhaled anthrax, leading
government officials to order testing
for as many as 2,300 more mail
employees, Mayor Anthony Williams
said Sunday.




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Oct 20 21:28:40 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 14:28:40 +1000
Subject: Do spec ops set aside clean underpants?
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011021142340.00a731b0@pop.useoz.com>


Optimizzin al-gorithm wrote...

America will only be certain about its mistaken calculations after its
soldiers are dragged in Afghanistan
 >as they were in Somalia,''
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/nm/20011018/ts/attack_qaeda_usa_dc_1.html

One bomb got USG out of Lebanon.

A few stingers and some underwear on CNN got USG out of Somalia.

Bombs didn't work for crusaders in Arabian barracks or warship.
Wouldn't
think oil is so addictive, but it is.  People will die to get it.

Maybe Osama's brother will recognize his writing and turn him into the
FBI.

Maybe if the reward was encrypted,AP style,one of his wives might 
'kervorkian' him in his sleep.




From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Sun Oct 21 14:56:28 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 14:56:28 -0700
Subject: And another one bites the dust, another one down, another
  one down
In-Reply-To: <3BD33D4F.7760CE3E@sarin.com>; from hakkin@sarin.com on
  Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 02:25:35PM -0700
References: <3BD33D4F.7760CE3E@sarin.com>
Message-ID: <20011021145628.B24855@navel.introspect>

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From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Oct 20 21:57:17 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 14:57:17 +1000
Subject: Chinese take-away
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011021143327.00a6feb0@pop.useoz.com>


Your china in OZ writes,(china plate=mate=bud,pal)
Not content with selling huge amounts of american flags (made in chinese 
gulags)China recently tested
dong feng missiles capable of dropping nuclear payload on US assets .They 
reversed engineered
cruise missiles too so dont worry if one goes up your street and turns 
left.They have got a 'knock off'spy
plane with pilot wangs brother watching.The balloons full of biowar agents 
and fresh avian flu strains will
be floating over soon also.Watch the skies! ITs not gone unnoticed that 
tidal patterns also favour WMDs
launched your way.The chinese govt's realised you wanted a wag the dog war 
with it all along and will ,sooner or later
so 'first in best dressed' or 'operation king hit' is the order of the 
day.(You didnt hear this from me)Luv,mattd.




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Oct 20 22:23:20 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 15:23:20 +1000
Subject: New kind of FUD
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011021151940.00a6fd60@pop.useoz.com>


"Now HERE is where you need that microwave. "
Thanks sandy,I dont know what we'd do without you. Whats the difference 
between anal sex and a microwave?
Only one browns your meat.




From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Sun Oct 21 15:46:38 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 15:46:38 -0700
Subject: Why Plan-9?
In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@einstein.ssz.com on Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 10:30:57AM -0500
References:  
Message-ID: <20011021154638.C24855@navel.introspect>

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From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Sun Oct 21 16:07:55 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 16:07:55 -0700
Subject: Why Plan-9?
In-Reply-To: <3BD33A64.3C62AD97@cybershamanix.com>; from hseaver@cybershamanix.com on Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 04:13:26PM -0500
References:  <3BD33A64.3C62AD97@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <20011021160755.D24855@navel.introspect>

on Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 04:13:26PM -0500, Harmon Seaver (hseaver at cybershamanix.com) wrote:
> Steve Furlong wrote:
> 
> > Sunder wrote:
> > >
> > > Why Plan-9?  I'd say go with OpenBSD. :)  Built in crypto, built in
> > > firewall, secure on installation without you needing to tweak stuff.  Hell
> > > you can even tell it to encrypt swap pages.
> >
> > I'd really like to use OBSD for my always-on server, but there are a few
> > shortcomings.
> 
>      Does OBSD have a kernel optimized for use as a router like linux does?
> That's really important if you want a full-time router.
> http://master-www.linuxrouter.org:8080/

I suspect the oBSD response would be that you don't have to.  Anecdotal
evidence (and Linus's own comments) are that Linux networking is weaker
than it could be, the BSD stack has traditionally held a security
advantage.

That said, oBSD's overall performance is generally considered to be
lower than that of GNU/Linux.  What with hardware prices, adding
redundant hardware might be considered preferable to trying to handle
the load on one high-performance box.  But that's also not my area of
expertise.

Back to the cornfield....

Peace.

-- 
Karsten M. Self        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?             Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html
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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Sun Oct 21 14:13:26 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 16:13:26 -0500
Subject: Why Plan-9?
References:  <3BD2ED10.506E2A95@acmenet.net>
Message-ID: <3BD33A64.3C62AD97@cybershamanix.com>


Steve Furlong wrote:

> Sunder wrote:
> >
> > Why Plan-9?  I'd say go with OpenBSD. :)  Built in crypto, built in
> > firewall, secure on installation without you needing to tweak stuff.  Hell
> > you can even tell it to encrypt swap pages.
>
> I'd really like to use OBSD for my always-on server, but there are a few
> shortcomings.

     Does OBSD have a kernel optimized for use as a router like linux does?
That's really important if you want a full-time router.
http://master-www.linuxrouter.org:8080/

Likewise, the linux bios would be very useful here -- does obsd have a bios
port?
www.linuxbios.org

(snip)


>
> - Encrypted file systems: I want my main server to have TCFS or
> equivalent, so if the machine is seized the feebs would see a tiny boot
> partition and a large, strongly-encrypted main partition. I tried a few
> encrypted file systems a while back, and the couple I found for OBSD
> weren't there yet, either; they typically dumped core when I tried to
> use them. (I see that Dr Evil posted a message on this subject last May
> on a list archived at Geocrawler, so I guess the shortcoming hasn't been
> fixed since I last looked at it in depth.)

     You need to look at the linux cryptoapi, which is fully functional at this
point
http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/people/hvr/
 and which can also be used to encrypt both swap *and* boot partition if you
want (using initrd).

     I agree, Plan 9 looks very interesting, but then, so does MOSIX
http://www.mosix.org/ which is also a distributed (kernel implemented) OS based
on linux.

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver at cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html





From roy at scytale.com  Sun Oct 21 14:50:27 2001
From: roy at scytale.com (Roy M. Silvernail)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 16:50:27 -0500
Subject: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <20011021174555.A21818@weathership.homeport.org>
References: <3BD2C737.11961.8830543@localhost>
Message-ID: <3BD2FCD3.1005.6D51D@localhost>


On 21 Oct 2001, at 17:45, Adam Shostack wrote:

> Really?  My fairly new passport has some OCR-128 stuff on the front
> cover.  Could that have been what was scanned?

Pretty sure it's a magstrip.  There's a definite bump across the 
cover, and the reader it was passed through didn't come up far 
enough to scan the name or other information.

--
           Roy M. Silvernail     [ ]     roy at scytale.com
DNRC Minister Plenipotentiary of All Things Confusing, Software Division
    PGP Key 0x1AF39331 :  71D5 2EA2 4C27 D569  D96B BD40 D926 C05E
                 Key available from pubkey at scytale.com
            I charge to process unsolicited commercial email




From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Sun Oct 21 17:18:44 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 17:18:44 -0700
Subject: Why Plan-9?
In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com on Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 06:29:16PM -0500
References: <20011021154638.C24855@navel.introspect> 
Message-ID: <20011021171843.A2205@navel.introspect>

on Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 06:29:16PM -0500, Jim Choate (ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com) wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Oct 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote:
> 
> > This says nothing about current development.  Word I've heard (from
> > someone tangentially involved with the project) was that the release was
> > something of a desperation move.  As someone who watches free software
> > licences closely, the Plan 9 license is one of the more twisted bits of
> > corporate-authored licenses.  Not necessarially bad, but it reeks of
> > compromise clauses speaking to internal battles.  Rumor was that a
> > codebase that had been stable for a couple of years saw a slew of
> > commits in the weeks leading to the public release.
> 
> ??? Plan 9 was released Open Source in 2000. 

Summer, June/July, IIRC.  I've done a couple of look-ups since.  There's
been little additional news or information (I'm not saying none, I'm
saying little).  OpenBSD, a relatively little-known free 'nix, gets
rather more press and community coverage.

While there's nothing wrong with a small, dedicated core, I'm just
commenting that there doesn't appear to be much broader appeal.

> > The license is *not* OSI certified, nor is it considered Free Software
> > by the FSF.
> 
>  Ask me if I care.

A fair number of people respect the opinions of the OSI and FSF, if only
because they don't feel like combing through licensing terms themselves.
I'm active on the OSI's license-discuss list, and see quite a few
proposed licenses and terms.  I'm rather convinced that novelty, all
else being equal, is bad.  Compellingly adventageous licensing language
may be of some interest.  The MozPL is the last license I'd consider to
have provided this (it's a community-friendly mixed-mode copyleft +
proprietary use license).

Poor licensing choices are one of several key modes of failure for free
software projects.  If Plan 9 procedes forward, I expect to see another
two or three significant licensing revisions.

> Read Lessigs "Code".

At my side.  What specifically?

> > >  - Filesystem is fully transitive, everything is treated like a file.
> > >    This creates some unique opportunities to make publicly shared but
> > >    privately maintaned resource pools. Hangar 18 is an attempt to do
> > >    just this.
> > 
> > What does this mean?  How does this compare with,
> 
> Transitive means that A mounts B, C mounts A and gets B free. Plan 9 does
> this, managed by a set of authorization layers for fine control, native.
> This means that when Hangar 18 goes online you can mount /hangar18 into
> your filespace (via Plan 9 or Linux NFS services) and you will get all the
> resources that Hangar 18 mounts through that point. ftp is a good example.
> In Plan 9 you 'mount' the ftp server to your file system. If you ever go
> out and walk that part of the file space tree and request a file it only
> then goes and gets it. You can control its lifetime (to manage disk space
> for example) via local cache controls. A 'lazy update' mechanism, very
> efficient of network and local resources.

Interesting.  Some similarity then with the autofs system under
GNU/Linux, in which remote filesystems may be mounted by various
methods, including FTP, though transitivity isn't generally included
IIRC.

> > >  - Encryption (currently DES, needs fixing) built right in.
> > 
> > Built into what?
> 
> The network layer. The traffic between any two Plan 9 boxes is
> encrypted with keys dependent upon the individual boxes (or larger
> classes if you desire) if the system is so configured. You can also
> use this to encrypt branches of your filesystem. Plan 9 provides SSH.

Always or at discression?  Again, possible with GNU/Linux, though not as
trivial as desireable at present.

> But the passwords don't go across the network, therefore they're not
> 'used' in the conventional sense.

Interesting.  Somewhat like, say, SSH RSA key authentication, but at OS
level?

Peace.

-- 
Karsten M. Self        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?             Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html
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From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Sun Oct 21 08:38:34 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 17:38:34 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Explosives found at Greyhound bus terminal
In-Reply-To: <20011019172743.C24596@ils.unc.edu>
Message-ID: 


On Fri, 19 Oct 2001, Greg Newby wrote:

> For the interested, here's a great recipe for composition 4
> explosives: http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/tech/c4.html

Since some of the chemicals cited in above recipe are not so easily
obtainable, so feel free to substitute them by powdered RDX and a
plasticizer in a 91:9 ratio. A good plasticizer can be made from
polyisobutylene, motor oil, and Di(2-ethylhexyl) sebaceate.





From adam at homeport.org  Sun Oct 21 14:45:55 2001
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 17:45:55 -0400
Subject: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3BD2C737.11961.8830543@localhost>
References: <3.0.6.32.20011020150146.0081bb50@pop.sprynet.com>
  <20011020220950.12639.qmail@sidereal.kz>
  <3BD2C737.11961.8830543@localhost>
Message-ID: <20011021174555.A21818@weathership.homeport.org>


On Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 01:01:43PM -0500, Roy M. Silvernail wrote:
| On 20 Oct 2001, at 22:09, Dr. Evil wrote:
| 
| > Carry your passport, which doesn't have a mag strip
| > (last time I checked).  
| 
| My US passport does have a magstrip.  It's embedded in the front 
| cover, and must be read by a special device.  I've seen it scanned 
| only once, when leaving Montreal to return home.  (point being, a 
| driver's licence reader can't read passport magstrips)

Really?  My fairly new passport has some OCR-128 stuff on the front
cover.  Could that have been what was scanned?

| At least one club in Minneapolis has a prominent sign stating they 
| will not accept a US passport as ID unless it's accompanied by a 
| "yellow slip", that being the document indicating that the person 

Speaking for myself, I find this a fairly good way to distinguish
between businesses that are focused on giving me value for the money
and businesses that are interested in sucking up to the regulators.
When expressed like that, my friends have never had a problem going
somewhere else and avoiding the spots that won't let me in with a
passport or foriegn drivers license.

Adam


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume




From FreeEmailSoftware at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 21 15:50:49 2001
From: FreeEmailSoftware at yahoo.com (FreeEmailSoftware at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 01 17:50:49 EST
Subject: ***ADVERTISE TO 11,295,000 PEOPLE FREE!
Message-ID: <3791856948.991306994491@m0.net>


Dear cypherpunks at algebra.com,


Would you like to send an Email Message or Advertisement to
11,295,000 PEOPLE DAILY for FREE?

HURRY......ONLY ONE DAY LEFT!
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supply you with one).
=========================================================
To find out more information, Do not respond by email or you will be 
permanantly removed from any future emails from us.
Instead, please visit our web site at:
http://www.bigcashtoday.com/package1.htm



List Removal Instructions:
We hope you enjoyed receiving this message. However, if you'd rather 
not receive future e-mails of this sort from Internet Specialists, send an
email to freeemailsoftwarel at yahoo.com and type "remove" in the 
"subject" line and you will be removed from any future mailings.

We hope you have a great day!
Internet Specialists




From keyser-soze at hushmail.com  Sun Oct 21 17:51:18 2001
From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 17:51:18 -0700
Subject: used lab equiptment
Message-ID: <200110220051.f9M0pIb64253@mailserver1.hushmail.com>

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From honig at sprynet.com  Sun Oct 21 18:02:17 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 18:02:17 -0700
Subject: And another one bites the dust, another one down, another 
  one down
In-Reply-To: <20011021145628.B24855@navel.introspect>
References: <3BD33D4F.7760CE3E@sarin.com> <3BD33D4F.7760CE3E@sarin.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011021180217.00828e00@pop.sprynet.com>


At 02:56 PM 10/21/01 -0700, Karsten M. Self wrote:
>The media hype also tends to ignore the fact that anthrax is, in the
>forms detected to date, largely treatable.  Gross attempts at
>containment (expensive) are less advisable than identification and
>treatment of exposed individuals (less expensive).

Once the person has enough symptoms to seek treatment,
I think they're toast.  We'll see.  Maybe all USPO
workers will be given 60 days of Cipro.  If they're
the only ones to survive, the species is fucked.




From honig at sprynet.com  Sun Oct 21 18:04:03 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 18:04:03 -0700
Subject: ENVELOPE STUFFING JOB
In-Reply-To: <3BD34F46.160DD984@acmenet.net>
References: 
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011021180403.0082f550@pop.sprynet.com>


At 06:42 PM 10/21/01 -0400, Steve Furlong wrote:
>I'm tempted to scatter baker's yeast in a public place and powdered

All the packaged yeast I've ever seen is *way* too coarse to inhale,
and if you did snort yeast, it wouldn't make it to the depths of your
lungs.




From morten at hotpost.dk  Sun Oct 21 09:13:53 2001
From: morten at hotpost.dk (Morten Liebach)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 18:13:53 +0200
Subject: Why Plan-9?
In-Reply-To: <3BD2ED10.506E2A95@acmenet.net>
References:  <3BD2ED10.506E2A95@acmenet.net>
Message-ID: <20011021181353.C6379@hotpost.dk>


On 21, Oct, 2001 at 11:43:12AM -0400, Steve Furlong wrote:
> Sunder wrote:
> > 
> > Why Plan-9?  I'd say go with OpenBSD. :)  Built in crypto, built in
> > firewall, secure on installation without you needing to tweak stuff.  Hell
> > you can even tell it to encrypt swap pages.
> 
> I'd really like to use OBSD for my always-on server, but there are a few
> shortcomings.
> 
> - New Java stuff: I need to have Java servlets, JSP, and all that rot
> available from my web site, and last time I tried, a few months ago, the
> new Java stuff just wasn't there yet. Eighty-five step installation
> procedure which either didn't work quite right or was too much for my
> tiny brain. (The procedure was actually for FBSD, but it didn't work
> there, either, so the chances of getting it working on OBSD were
> negligible.)

In 3.0 (out around Dec. 1st) you have jakarta-tomcat and jserv ports
that might be what you need. I don't use it myself though, so I don't
know how well it works, or how easy it is to configure.
 
> - Encrypted file systems: I want my main server to have TCFS or

I think Linux is better at this.

What about www.rubberhose.org? Works best on linux it seems.

I'll play around with it sometime during the next two weeks when I get
the new SuSE Linux.

Plan 9 looks really, really cool too, though. ;-)

Have a nice day
                                 Morten

-- 
Morten Liebach 
PGP-key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xD796A4EB
https://pc89225.stofanet.dk/ || http://pc89225.stofanet.dk/




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sun Oct 21 16:29:16 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 18:29:16 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Why Plan-9?
In-Reply-To: <20011021154638.C24855@navel.introspect>
Message-ID: 



On Sun, 21 Oct 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote:

> This says nothing about current development.  Word I've heard (from
> someone tangentially involved with the project) was that the release was
> something of a desperation move.  As someone who watches free software
> licences closely, the Plan 9 license is one of the more twisted bits of
> corporate-authored licenses.  Not necessarially bad, but it reeks of
> compromise clauses speaking to internal battles.  Rumor was that a
> codebase that had been stable for a couple of years saw a slew of
> commits in the weeks leading to the public release.

??? Plan 9 was released Open Source in 2000. Prior to that it had a weird
'no commercial use' clauses. It apparently was intended as a internal use
only project. Forces both internal and external began fighting for the
release of the Rev. 2 code (which turns out can't be done) so instead Pike
and the others created a Rev. 3. They are now working on what is called
the "2000 Release". Haven't had a chance to try it yet.

> How about its external use track record?

None, see commentary above. I've been an avid follower of Plan 9 since '86
when the first papers started to appear. It's current state with respect
to apps is about where Linux was in '92. With respect to the code, it
works and works well. The fathers of Unix did as good a job here as well.

> The license is *not* OSI certified, nor is it considered Free Software
> by the FSF.

 Ask me if I care.

Read Lessigs "Code".

> >  - Fully distributed in both process and file space
> 
> Meaning...?

Meaning that through your I/O server you see an effective pool of many
processors on which you can then use to execute your programs. It means
that the filesystem components that appear 'local' may actually not be. It
means that things like backups and such can be left to the filesystem to
take care of 'under the covers' so to speak.

> >  - Filesystem is fully transitive, everything is treated like a file.
> >    This creates some unique opportunities to make publicly shared but
> >    privately maintaned resource pools. Hangar 18 is an attempt to do
> >    just this.
> 
> What does this mean?  How does this compare with,

Transitive means that A mounts B, C mounts A and gets B free. Plan 9 does
this, managed by a set of authorization layers for fine control, native.
This means that when Hangar 18 goes online you can mount /hangar18 into
your filespace (via Plan 9 or Linux NFS services) and you will get all the
resources that Hangar 18 mounts through that point. ftp is a good example.
In Plan 9 you 'mount' the ftp server to your file system. If you ever go
out and walk that part of the file space tree and request a file it only
then goes and gets it. You can control its lifetime (to manage disk space
for example) via local cache controls. A 'lazy update' mechanism, very
efficient of network and local resources.

> say, GNU/Linux and /proc?

Irrelvant comparison.

> >  - The filesystem is structured and featured in such a way that RDBMS
> >    sorts of solutions are moot. These functions are built into the
> >    filesystem itself (though not through SQL compliance).
> 
> How does this compare with, say, journaled filesystems?  I'm not
> challenging, I don't understand the statement above and am not familiar
> with the technology.

You can build a journaled filesystem layer onto Plan 9 through scripts
that define how the various servers are supposed to journal the
individual compnents.

> 
> >  - Encryption (currently DES, needs fixing) built right in.
> 
> Built into what?

The network layer. The traffic between any two Plan 9 boxes is encrypted
with keys dependent upon the individual boxes (or larger classes if you
desire) if the system is so configured. You can also use this to encrypt
branches of your filesystem. Plan 9 provides SSH.

> >  - Doesn't use passwords, Instead it uses tickets (ie certificates).
> 
> ...which are granted via...?

However the resource owner choses. I'm using 'small worlds network' models
for my 'web of trust'...

> Passwords, perhaps?

But the passwords don't go across the network, therefore they're not
'used' in the conventional sense.

> >  - Has a wickedly new GUI.
> 
> Oh, now *that's* compelling....

It should be, X Windows sucks.

> >  - Supports Inferno (run-time included) so that you can access one of the
> >    leading 'Internet Appliance' work environments. Plan 9 isn't real-time,
> >    but Inferno is. (It makes my Lego Mindstorm look like a directory tree, 
> >    makes programming real-time hardware operations rather easy)
> 
> What's Inferno?

Another OS, intended for real-time control of "Internet Appliances". You
run it along side Plan 9.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Sun Oct 21 18:34:07 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 18:34:07 -0700
Subject: Instant Anthrax...test (was: Re: And another one bites the
  dust...)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011021180217.00828e00@pop.sprynet.com>; from
  honig@sprynet.com on Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 06:02:17PM -0700
References: <3BD33D4F.7760CE3E@sarin.com> <3BD33D4F.7760CE3E@sarin.com>
  <20011021145628.B24855@navel.introspect>
  <3.0.6.32.20011021180217.00828e00@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <20011021183407.B3422@navel.introspect>

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From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Sun Oct 21 15:42:14 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 18:42:14 -0400
Subject: ENVELOPE STUFFING JOB
References: 
Message-ID: <3BD34F46.160DD984@acmenet.net>


Eugene Leitl wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 19 Oct 2001, Riad S. Wahby wrote:
> 
> > How much laboratory experience do you have?  Specifically, we're
> > looking for people with experience handling white powders.  Also,
> 
> Laminar flow bench, dude. And it's brown, not white, but you knew that
> already.

Powder color is the thing that's been driving me up a wall the past few
days. People are panicking about the wrong dang thing.

I'm tempted to scatter baker's yeast in a public place and powdered
sugar nearby, and observe which causes people to panic. All that's left
is figuring out how to do this enough times for meaningful results,
without getting arrested...


-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Oct 21 01:42:24 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 18:42:24 +1000
Subject: assasinating larry (the movie)
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011021183525.00a6d650@pop.useoz.com>


Matt: AP is not yet possible. Do your homework. There is a long road 
between theory and reality, and it is littered with the corpses of people 
who couldn't tell the difference. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson

You have no idea how glad I am to here that.Jim and carl may also be 
suprised.Now if you and sandy sanfort supply
me with your meatspace adress Ill know where to send a defence subpoena.The 
victoria police seem to be dead ignorant.
I know its not yet possible,thats why I used it in my online humour 
column,now Im trapped in a kafka novel,HELP!




From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Sun Oct 21 09:46:27 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 18:46:27 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: IP: "U.S. On Verge of 'Electronic Martial Law' (fwd)
Message-ID: 




-- Eugen* Leitl leitl
______________________________________________________________
ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204
57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 12:39:42 -0400
From: David Farber 
Reply-To: farber at cis.upenn.edu
To: ip-sub-1 at majordomo.pobox.com
Subject: IP: "U.S. On Verge of 'Electronic Martial Law'

"U.S. On Verge of 'Electronic Martial Law'--Researcher"
Newsbytes (10/15/01); Featherly, Kevin

The United States is unduly clamping down on the Internet in order to root
out terrorist activities online, argues University of Illinois professor
Heidi Brush, who says the federal government would do better to rethink the
conceptual framework of U.S. communications instead. She spoke at the
recent Internet Research 2.0 gathering for the Association of Internet
Researchers. Although offering no concrete fixes to the problem, Professor
Brush painted a grim picture of "Internet martial law" being imposed in a
vain attempt to capture distributed terrorist groups. Terrorists' style of
"Net war," a term coined earlier by experts at the RAND policy think tank,
would prove elusive to counter by the lumbering centralized government, she
said.

http://www.newsbytes.com/news/01/171130.html


For archives see:
http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sun Oct 21 17:01:48 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 19:01:48 -0500
Subject: Guardian Unlimited Observer | International | Hacker cries foul over FBI snooping
Message-ID: <3BD361EC.A1951D65@ssz.com>


http://www.observer.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,577846,00.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From schear at lvcm.com  Sun Oct 21 20:27:08 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 20:27:08 -0700
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20011021215710.01fe91d0@mail.well.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011020130355.03dac308@pop3.lvcm.com>
  <20011020134200.B18679@cluebot.com>
  <5.1.0.14.0.20011019162608.038b25a0@pop3.lvcm.com>
  <00e601c158e4$70b40bc0$01000001@PATRICK>
  <5.1.0.14.0.20011019162608.038b25a0@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011021201236.038d3d48@pop3.lvcm.com>


At 10:02 PM 10/21/2001 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>I'm actually surprised to see Steve launch into a critique of 
>laissez-faire capitalism here on cypherpunks, of all places. One can admit 
>that globalization has ill effects (mostly, bricks through windows of 
>Starbucks thrown by bored, upper-middle-class, college-age protesters), 
>certainly. But when responding to claims that factory workers in poorer 
>countries are only being paid $2/hour or whatnot, it makes sense to ask: 
>Is this worse than their other alternatives, like mud huts in villages?

Actually its not the wages, which may quite attractive for these workers 
and their skills, but the intimidation and occasional violence used to 
recruit and maintain employees, keep them from organizing and the 
government support or blind eyes which take me aback.  It reminded me of 
the tyranny of the coal mining companies in West Virginia circa 1880's.


>To argue against people voluntarily entering into market-based 
>transactions with each other is so a-economical and contrary to cypherpunk 
>philosophies* -- wlel, I just don't think it's worth taking the time to go 
>any further in a response.

I've actually spoken to a few Central American women who worked in these 
factories and the conversations left an indelible memory.  I'm not ready to 
abandon my support of laissez-faire capitalism or globalism.  Perhaps these 
painful personal experiences are all for the best in the long term, I 
certainly don't have a better solution to improving their lot, but it has 
caused me to think about the price some pay.

steve




From schear at lvcm.com  Sun Oct 21 20:29:13 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 20:29:13 -0700
Subject: Beefing up security at America's dams and reservoirs
In-Reply-To: <9d33891c6d97b5733419e72bf1db3618@dizum.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011021202810.03d69770@pop3.lvcm.com>


At 03:20 AM 10/22/2001 +0200, Nomen Nescio wrote:
>National Public Radio (NPR) Morning Edition  (11:00 AM AM ET)
>Thursday, Oct. 18, 2001
>
>Beefing up security at America's dams and reservoirs
>
>BOB EDWARDS, host: This is MORNING EDITION from NPR News. I'm Bob
>Edwards.

Should have used the title

Plugging security holes at America's dams and reservoirs ;-)

steve




From tcmay at got.net  Sun Oct 21 20:30:08 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 20:30:08 -0700
Subject: And another one bites the dust, another one down, another 
  one down
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011021180217.00828e00@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <178AF14C-C69D-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Sunday, October 21, 2001, at 06:02 PM, David Honig wrote:

> At 02:56 PM 10/21/01 -0700, Karsten M. Self wrote:
>> The media hype also tends to ignore the fact that anthrax is, in the
>> forms detected to date, largely treatable.  Gross attempts at
>> containment (expensive) are less advisable than identification and
>> treatment of exposed individuals (less expensive).
>
> Once the person has enough symptoms to seek treatment,
> I think they're toast.  We'll see.  Maybe all USPO
> workers will be given 60 days of Cipro.  If they're
> the only ones to survive, the species is fucked.
>

I saw the Sturgeon General explaining that "we now have better treatment 
methods."

I thought he might have been right, inasmuch as we had heard that Victim 
#2, in Florida, was mending nicely from inhalation anthrax. Ah, but it 
now looks like #2 was not a real case of inhalational anthrax.

(I don't count the half dozen subcutaneous cases, or any of the "one 
spore was picked up on a swab" cases.)

It looks like this Maryland case is a real Case #2. If he survives, 
it'll mean the Sturgeon General was right to say we now can handle 
anthrax. But I expect he's a goner.

--Tim May
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a 
monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also 
into you." -- Nietzsche




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sun Oct 21 18:30:19 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 20:30:19 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Why Plan-9?
In-Reply-To: <20011021171843.A2205@navel.introspect>
Message-ID: 



On Sun, 21 Oct 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote:

> Summer, June/July, IIRC.  I've done a couple of look-ups since.  There's
> been little additional news or information (I'm not saying none, I'm
> saying little).  OpenBSD, a relatively little-known free 'nix, gets
> rather more press and community coverage.

You need to be on the mailing list. There is almost constant changes. You
can also visit the wiki link at Bell Labs for the most current info.

> proposed licenses and terms.  I'm rather convinced that novelty, all
> else being equal, is bad.

Can't disagree more.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Sun Oct 21 12:01:40 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 21:01:40 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: used lab equiptment
In-Reply-To: <200110181732.f9IHWwX03975@mailserver1c.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: 


On Thu, 18 Oct 2001 keyser-soze at hushmail.com wrote:

> A specialized ultrasonic device is not required to produce micron fine
> aerosol powders.  All one needs is a used and cleaned print head

In fact not, pressure waves strong enough to aerosol liquid will also
cause cavitation, resulting in heating and destruction of material.

> assembly and its piezo pulse circuitry.  Nozzle apertures are
> typically 25-50 micron and if the material is suspended, in weak

Ever tried pushing a bacterial suspension through a printer head
(processivity set aside)? It will clog it up in no time.

> concentration, in a solution which quickly evaporates but doesn't harm
> the spores it should produce moderate quantities of fine powder
> quickly.

Um, why don't we quit armchair microbiology, and stick to what we can
best: produce lots of uninformed speculations?                     Oh.

> If smaller sizes are desired a field ring charged to 1000-3000v DC can
> be placed around and in front of the nozzles.  If operated in sync
> with the nozzle pulses it can cause a the emerging droplets to cascade
> to nanometer size via the electrospray effect (now becoming common in
> drug production).  See
> http://www.essex.ac.uk/bs/staff/colbeck/index.htm#appas

I think it should be easy enough to look up relevant patents online,
assuming one is bored enough.




From jamesd at echeque.com  Sun Oct 21 21:03:42 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 21:03:42 -0700
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: 
References: <65C70580-C59F-11D5-8249-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <3BD3382E.15575.111B11@localhost>


    --
On 20 Oct 2001, at 16:31, Jim Choate wrote:
> What it takes to have reasonable living standards and 
> sufficient resources to help ones children do better than 
> themselves. The reality is that these sweatshops do exist, 
> that they do exploit the workers, and that they are 
> specifically managed to keep the workers from exploiting 
> economic, social, and educational resources. Why? Because 
> if the producers allow this behaviour they put themselves 
> out of business.

 Commie bullshit.

They are not poor because western capitalists are hiring
them.  They are poor because western capitalists are
prevented from hiring them.

Closing down the "sweatshops" makes third world people
poorer, not richer.  The poorest asian countries are those
that tightly controlled their economies and excluded foreign
enterprises, notably India, Vietnam, Nepal, and Burma.

The richest are those places that a few decades ago were
supposedly being oppressed for sweatshop labor by the evil
capitalists -- Hong Kong, Singapore, Taiwan.

Today the "sweatshops" are primarily in markedly less
capitalist places, notably Vietnam.


    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     VC6rCCa/8NlTc4yknaikPeX+v1K5OpxSroJGyxsx
     48B4dg+MuWTijUu6JPzC3WioXT40voLmzsMqP/Clh




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Sun Oct 21 18:11:23 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 21:11:23 -0400
Subject: ENVELOPE STUFFING JOB
References:  <3.0.6.32.20011021180403.0082f550@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3BD3723B.26DD9A10@acmenet.net>


David Honig wrote:
> 
> At 06:42 PM 10/21/01 -0400, Steve Furlong wrote:
> >I'm tempted to scatter baker's yeast in a public place and powdered
> 
> All the packaged yeast I've ever seen is *way* too coarse to inhale,
> and if you did snort yeast, it wouldn't make it to the depths of your
> lungs.

Oh, certainly. But snorting the powder wasn't the idea. The idea was to
cause alurum and confusion. I figure, if the masses are panicked by
powdered sugar and talcum powder, they might also be panicked by a pile
of yeast. Except that they're probably too ignorant to be scared of a
_brown_ powder. Which was the reason for the experiment in the first
place.


SRF

-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




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From: Freeadultmembership12s at yahoo.com (Freeadultmembership12s at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 21:21:57 -1900
Subject: A:\adultsub.txt              BHNUGX
Message-ID: <00006c466de9$00007bc3$00005f61@mta445.mail.yahoo.com>


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From sandfort at mindspring.com  Sun Oct 21 21:43:16 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 21:43:16 -0700
Subject: Retribution Time
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


J.A. Terranson wrote:

> And the inevitable outcome of a _moderated_
> list is that free expression (loon-like or
> not) is sacrificed.

Nonsense.  You don't understand the marketplace of ideas.  Free expression
is "sacrificed" only if other outlet for expression are silenced.  I cannot
and would not shut down cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com, cypherpunks at lne.com,
etc.  I will invite like-minder C'punks into my virtual living room and
encourage them to speak, but not to shouting.  You don't want to go there,
fine.  Stay with the crowd that makes you feel comfortable, but don't talk
nonsense about censorship.


 S a n d y




From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Sun Oct 21 19:44:52 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 21:44:52 -0500
Subject: IP: Beyond Carnivore: FBI Eyes Packet Taps (fwd)
References: 
Message-ID: <3BD38806.239C3E99@cybershamanix.com>


measl at mfn.org wrote:

> On Sun, 21 Oct 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>
> >        All the more reason to use Linux routers and firewalls.
> > Especially if Cisco pulls a Larry Ellison.
> >
> > --
> > Harmon Seaver, MLIS
>
> That's fine and dandy for ds1's, and maybe even enough for the majority of
> fractional ds3 customers, but how are you going to apply this to people
> with oc12 handoffs?  Even oc3 handoffs are going to be *really* difficult
> boxes to build using COTS/PC technology.
>
>

      There's a number of router manufacturers that do a lot more than use PC
hardware. This one beats the Cisco 7500:
http://www.imagestream-is.com/News_1-26-01.html

    I'm sure the hardware to deal with oc12s will be soon forthcoming, if it
isn't already available. Besides which, if you and I run a vpn between our
routers, do we really care if it goes thru a feeb checkpoint? Remailer
software could be modified to tunnel between themselves, not just encrypt,
etc.
    Of couse, the whole concept of what they're talking about is impossible
to implement. Easy to order, but I can't see how it would ever work in
reality, not well enough to keep the net actually functioning.



--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver at cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html




From jamesd at echeque.com  Sun Oct 21 21:47:22 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 21:47:22 -0700
Subject: Another precious moment from shrub...
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20011020140837.035f6a80@idiom.com>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011020002925.03e362d0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com >
Message-ID: <3BD3426A.2179.391764@localhost>


    --
 Somoza fell largely because of US pressure, so he was not 
"our SOB".  Furthermore however nasty Somoza was, we did not 
see tens of thousands of refugees escaping Nicaragua to 
neighbouring countries during his rule.

The short story of Nicaragua is that there was a US sponsored 
overthrow of an unpleasant dictator, a commie conspiracy 
stole the revolution, and the contras took the revolution 
back, bleeding the Soviet Union significantly in the process. 
The war cost the Soviet Union vastly more than it cost the 
US, and the Soviet Union could afford it less


    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     O2nE3GR43JxWYey3RR11zt4sdp64nZ2+KYj+8Yv+
     41VIT0zZh9AAT+P/dbQDOVLCXj08qsCRHASyBXNX6




From jamesd at echeque.com  Sun Oct 21 21:47:22 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 21:47:22 -0700
Subject: Another precious moment from shrub...
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011020002925.03e362d0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com>
References: <3BD0D8A9.21458.413B0@localhost>
Message-ID: <3BD3426A.998.39178C@localhost>


    --
James A. Donald:
>  > In Africa two Soviet sponsored tyrannies, both of which 
>  > had been committing mass murder on an enormous scale,  
>  > were overthrown though not replaced by democracies.

On 20 Oct 2001, at 0:30, Reese wrote:
> Do these two former-Soviet/current-? have names?

Ethiopia and Somalia.  Observe how killing a few commies  
seems to have dramatically improved the Ethiopian rainfall
:-)

(For the sarcasm impaired, the reference to rainfall was  
ridicule for the pious excuses offered offered by US pinkos  
for the artificial famines created by the Ethiopian regime.)

>  > In Latin America one Soviet sponsored tyranny was  
>  > overthrown, and replaced by democracy,

Reese:
> Name?

Nicaragua.

James A. Donald:
>  > and several regimes that had been fighting wars against 
>  > Soviet proxy troops supported by Cuba won victories,  
>  > making it possible for them to become democracies.

Reese:
> Names?

Guatemala and El Salvador.   

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     Hz7cuDrX7hY6JK0+6S0yqI7+36mHFL2I9FKNzfLJ
     4hpQA43ILndkqfloN5siazG7Wn6s1w2aHizw2vlEU




From tcmay at got.net  Sun Oct 21 21:58:56 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 21:58:56 -0700
Subject: Has Steve Schear earned killing? Verdict is out.
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011021201236.038d3d48@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: <7F6205A0-C6A9-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Sunday, October 21, 2001, at 08:27 PM, Steve Schear wrote:

> At 10:02 PM 10/21/2001 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>> I'm actually surprised to see Steve launch into a critique of 
>> laissez-faire capitalism here on cypherpunks, of all places. One can 
>> admit that globalization has ill effects (mostly, bricks through 
>> windows of Starbucks thrown by bored, upper-middle-class, college-age 
>> protesters), certainly. But when responding to claims that factory 
>> workers in poorer countries are only being paid $2/hour or whatnot, it 
>> makes sense to ask: Is this worse than their other alternatives, like 
>> mud huts in villages?
>
> Actually its not the wages, which may quite attractive for these 
> workers and their skills, but the intimidation and occasional violence 
> used to recruit and maintain employees, keep them from organizing and 
> the government support or blind eyes which take me aback.  It reminded 
> me of the tyranny of the coal mining companies in West Virginia circa 
> 1880's.

"Any employee of our Company is free to "organize."  That day wlll be 
his last day. Good luck, and fuck you!"

Free people are free to fire those who form communal organizations. 
Anyone who disagrees with this point has earned killing.

Choose wisely, Steve Schear.


--Tim May

--Tim May
"The State is the great fiction by which everyone seeks to live at the 
expense of everyone else." --Frederic Bastiat




From anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org  Sun Oct 21 20:02:02 2001
From: anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org (Incognito Innominatus)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 22:02:02 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: FBI considers torture as suspects stay silent
Message-ID: <72a787729e6e65b8169aff017d3bdb2d@mixmaster.nullify.org>


FBI considers torture as suspects stay silent
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2001350021-2001364909,00.html

AMERICAN investigators are considering resorting to harsher interrogation techniques, including torture, after facing a wall of silence from jailed suspected members of Osama bin Ladens al-Qaeda network, according to a report yesterday.
More than 150 people who were picked up after September 11 remain in custody, with four men the focus of particularly intense scrutiny. But investigators have found the usual methods have failed to persuade any of them to talk.
Options being weighed include truth drugs, pressure tactics and extraditing the suspects to countries whose security services are more used to employing a heavy-handed approach during interrogations.
Were into this thing for 35 days and nobody is talking. Frustration has begun to appear, a senior FBI official told The Washington Post.
Under US law, evidence extracted using physical pressure or torture is inadmissible in court and interrogators could also face criminal charges for employing such methods. However, investigators suggested that the time might soon come when a truth serum, such as sodium pentothal, would be deemed an acceptable tool for interrogators.
The public pressure for results in the war on terrorism might also persuade the FBI to encourage the countries of suspects to seek their extradition, in the knowledge that they could be given a much rougher reception in jails back home.
One of the four key suspects is Zacarias Moussaoui, a French Moroccan, suspected of being a twentieth hijacker who failed to make it on board the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania. Moussaoui was detained after he acted suspiciously at a Minnesota flying school, requesting lessons in how to steer a plane but not how to take off or land. Both Morocco and France are regarded as having harsher interrogation methods than the United States.
The investigators have been disappointed that the usual incentives to break suspects, such as promises of shorter sentences, money, jobs and new lives in the witness protection programme, have failed to break the silence.
We are known for humanitarian treatment, so basically we are stuck. Usually there is some incentive, some angle to play, what you can do for them. But it could get to that spot where we could go to pressure . . . where we dont have a choice, and we are probably getting there, an FBI agent involved in the investigation told the paper.
The other key suspects being held in New York are Mohammed Jaweed Azmath and Ayub Ali Khan, Indians who were caught the day after the attacks travelling with false passports, craft knives such as those used in the hijackings and hair dye. Nabil Almarabh, a Boston taxi driver alleged to have links to al-Qaeda, is also being held. Some legal experts believe that the US Supreme Court, which has a conservative tilt, might be prepared to support curtailing the civil liberties of prisoners in terrorism cases.
However, a warning that torture should be avoided came from Robert Blitzer, a former head of the FBIs counter-terrorism section. He said that the practice goes against every grain in my body. Chances are you are going to get the wrong person and risk damage or killing them.
In all, about 800 people have been rounded up since the attacks, most of whom are expected to be found to be innocent. Investigators believe there could be hundreds of people linked to al-Qaeda living in the US, and the Bush Administration has issued a warning that more attacks are probably being planned.
Newsweek magazine reports today that Mohammed Atta, the suspected ringleader who died in the first plane to hit the World Trade Centre, had been looking into hitting an aircraft carrier. Investigators retracing his movements found that he visited the huge US Navy base at Norfolk, Virginia, in February and April this year.




From declan at well.com  Sun Oct 21 22:02:24 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 22:02:24 -0700
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011020130355.03dac308@pop3.lvcm.com>
References: <20011020134200.B18679@cluebot.com>
  <5.1.0.14.0.20011019162608.038b25a0@pop3.lvcm.com>
  <00e601c158e4$70b40bc0$01000001@PATRICK>
  <5.1.0.14.0.20011019162608.038b25a0@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20011021215710.01fe91d0@mail.well.com>


I'm actually surprised to see Steve launch into a critique of laissez-faire 
capitalism here on cypherpunks, of all places. One can admit that 
globalization has ill effects (mostly, bricks through windows of Starbucks 
thrown by bored, upper-middle-class, college-age protesters), certainly. 
But when responding to claims that factory workers in poorer countries are 
only being paid $2/hour or whatnot, it makes sense to ask: Is this worse 
than their other alternatives, like mud huts in villages?

To argue against people voluntarily entering into market-based transactions 
with each other is so a-economical and contrary to cypherpunk philosophies* 
-- wlel, I just don't think it's worth taking the time to go any further in 
a response.

-Declan

* = To the extent that there are any cypherpunk philosophies, of course.



At 01:17 PM 10/20/01 -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
>At 01:42 PM 10/20/2001 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>On Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 05:35:53PM -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
>> > The direction of all recent administrations has been to expand
>> > globalization (i.e., interdependency) thus increasing economic risks and
>> > narrowing diplomatic choices.  In the short term, and we have no idea what
>>
>>When I speak of globalization, I mean removing barriers imposed by government
>>to voluntary exchanges between consenting people. Sounds good to me.
>
>Unfortunately, many citizens in the developing world are not party to 
>these "voluntary" exchanges, but are directly affected.  I've read the 
>reports of the many low wage sweat shop jobs, mainly performed by young 
>women, in these countries and that their alternative is worse.  In a way 
>one could portray their situations as dismal but not dire, sort of along 
>the on-screen comments of Arthur to the prostitute is dinning with "... so 
>you might say you're having a relatively good time?"
>
>In the short term economic inequalities and human rights abuses may be 
>exacerbated (e.g., the fate of rural mainland Chinese).  The long-term 
>effects of globalization are as yet unknown.
>
>
>>You seem to think of liberal global trade as a zero-sum game. This is
>>an elementary error. Instead, liberal global trade is what economists
>>would call an "expanding pie" where additional wealth is created.
>
>Agreed, but wealth is only one measure of human happiness and the jury is 
>still out on whether the vast majority of those indirectly affected by 
>globalization will find it has been in their best interests.




From tcmay at got.net  Sun Oct 21 22:05:22 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 22:05:22 -0700
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: <3BD3382E.15575.111B11@localhost>
Message-ID: <65A8B6DA-C6AA-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Sunday, October 21, 2001, at 09:03 PM, jamesd at echeque.com wrote:

>     --
> On 20 Oct 2001, at 16:31, Jim Choate wrote:
>> What it takes to have reasonable living standards and
>> sufficient resources to help ones children do better than
>> themselves. The reality is that these sweatshops do exist,
>> that they do exploit the workers, and that they are
>> specifically managed to keep the workers from exploiting
>> economic, social, and educational resources. Why? Because
>> if the producers allow this behaviour they put themselves
>> out of business.
>
>  Commie bullshit.
>
> They are not poor because western capitalists are hiring
> them.  They are poor because western capitalists are
> prevented from hiring them.
>
> Closing down the "sweatshops" makes third world people
> poorer, not richer.  The poorest asian countries are those
> that tightly controlled their economies and excluded foreign
> enterprises, notably India, Vietnam, Nepal, and Burma.

We should "close down" the horrible sweatshops in Asia, India, South 
America, and other hellholes. (Africa is not counted because they are 
below sweat shop standards.)

We will then see what 2.6 billion people have to eat.

Things will be less crowded in Asia and South America, that's for sure.


--Tim May
"The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any 
member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to 
others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient 
warrant." --John Stuart Mill




From tcmay at got.net  Sun Oct 21 22:26:55 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 22:26:55 -0700
Subject: Karsten M. Self shows himself to be clueless, again
In-Reply-To: <20011021183407.B3422@navel.introspect>
Message-ID: <684FA4B8-C6AD-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Sunday, October 21, 2001, at 06:34 PM, Karsten M. Self wrote:

> gpg: Invalid passphrase; please try again ...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash

> Karsten M. Self        
> http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
>  What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?             Home of the 
> brave
>   http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                   Land of the 
> free
>    Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! 
> http://www.freesklyarov.org
> Geek for Hire                     
> http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org
>
> iD8DBQE703eMOEeIn1XyubARAkv8AJsGXp1TQp8Zy+CPWNLrtb34BeJBdQCfb470
> tehhCnLmo1UbvUhPFE7o4Z0=
> =cjrt
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>


Jesus fucking Christ, if you're going to subject us to all of your PGP, 
GPG, GnuPG1.0.6 crud, at least get your fucking password straight, you 
fucking moron.

"gpg: Invalid passphrase: please try again..."

Fucking creep. Where's that sniper rifle, Bob?



--Tim May
"The great object is that every man be armed and everyone who is able 
may have a gun." --Patrick Henry
"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be 
properly armed." --Alexander Hamilton




From anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org  Sun Oct 21 20:42:00 2001
From: anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org (Incognito Innominatus)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 22:42:00 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: RESEND: FBI considers torture as suspects stay silent
Message-ID: <3bd2d047194ae9cc8568c7bdc376dd66@mixmaster.nullify.org>


FBI considers torture as suspects stay silent
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2001350021-2001364909,00.html

AMERICAN investigators are considering resorting to harsher 
interrogation techniques, including torture, after facing a wall of 
silence from jailed suspected members of Osama bin Ladens al-Qaeda 
network, according to a report yesterday.

More than 150 people who were picked up after September 11 remain in 
custody, with four men the focus of particularly intense scrutiny. But 
investigators have found the usual methods have failed to persuade any 
of them to talk.

Options being weighed include truth drugs, pressure tactics and 
extraditing the suspects to countries whose security services are more 
used to employing a heavy-handed approach during interrogations.

Were into this thing for 35 days and nobody is talking. Frustration 
has begun to appear, a senior FBI official told The Washington Post.

Under US law, evidence extracted using physical pressure or torture is 
inadmissible in court and interrogators could also face criminal 
charges for employing such methods. However, investigators suggested 
that the time might soon come when a truth serum, such as sodium 
pentothal, would be deemed an acceptable tool for interrogators.

The public pressure for results in the war on terrorism might also 
persuade the FBI to encourage the countries of suspects to seek their 
extradition, in the knowledge that they could be given a much rougher 
reception in jails back home.

One of the four key suspects is Zacarias Moussaoui, a French Moroccan, 
suspected of being a twentieth hijacker who failed to make it on board 
the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania. Moussaoui was detained after he 
acted suspiciously at a Minnesota flying school, requesting lessons in 
how to steer a plane but not how to take off or land. Both Morocco and 
France are regarded as having harsher interrogation methods than the 
United States.

The investigators have been disappointed that the usual incentives to 
break suspects, such as promises of shorter sentences, money, jobs and 
new lives in the witness protection programme, have failed to break the 
silence.

We are known for humanitarian treatment, so basically we are stuck. 
Usually there is some incentive, some angle to play, what you can do 
for them. But it could get to that spot where we could go to pressure . 
. . where we dont have a choice, and we are probably getting there, 
an FBI agent involved in the investigation told the paper.

The other key suspects being held in New York are Mohammed Jaweed 
Azmath and Ayub Ali Khan, Indians who were caught the day after the 
attacks travelling with false passports, craft knives such as those 
used in the hijackings and hair dye. Nabil Almarabh, a Boston taxi 
driver alleged to have links to al-Qaeda, is also being held. Some 
legal experts believe that the US Supreme Court, which has a 
conservative tilt, might be prepared to support curtailing the civil 
liberties of prisoners in terrorism cases.

However, a warning that torture should be avoided came from Robert 
Blitzer, a former head of the FBIs counter-terrorism section. He said 
that the practice goes against every grain in my body. Chances are you 
are going to get the wrong person and risk damage or killing them.

In all, about 800 people have been rounded up since the attacks, most 
of whom are expected to be found to be innocent. Investigators believe 
there could be hundreds of people linked to al-Qaeda living in the US, 
and the Bush Administration has issued a warning that more attacks are 
probably being planned.

Newsweek magazine reports today that Mohammed Atta, the suspected 
ringleader who died in the first plane to hit the World Trade Centre, 
had been looking into hitting an aircraft carrier. Investigators 
retracing his movements found that he visited the huge US Navy base at 
Norfolk, Virginia, in February and April this year.




From measl at mfn.org  Sun Oct 21 21:24:25 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 23:24:25 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Retribution Time
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Sat, 20 Oct 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

> Hear, hear.
> 
> This sort of crap is the inevitable outcome of an unmoderated list.  

And the inevitable outcome of a _moderated_ list is that free expression
(loon-like or not) is sacrificed. 

No thanks.

Censorship. er, "moderation" is bad, regardless of any benign intent.

> All the
> loons come out to play because there are no real negative consequences for
> being a loon.

Wrong.  Nomen has long since placed him/herself into the position of not
being taken seriously.  Having groups of people who choose to turn a deaf
ear is a pretty real negative consequence, IMHO.

> And filtering does not do anything besides bury one's head in
> the sand.

I see killfiling as more of a simple noise suppressor, akin to the muffs
you wear when shooting.  If Nomen has nothing useful to say, then the
[individually chosen] loss of his/her input is not "hiding", as your
head-in-the-sand metaphor would suggest.
 
> I have an solution... (no, it's not AP).  :'D

Mattd will be *very* disappointed .

> I promise, when I get my new business going and have the time/money to
> devote to it, I will offer Cypherpunks a real solution.

2.5% sodium hypochlorite?

>  (Anybody who has
> time/money and wants to discuss it now, please contact me offline.)
> 
> We now return you to the freak show, already in progress. 
> 
>  S a n d y

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From halvarezy at hotmail.com  Sun Oct 21 21:26:38 2001
From: halvarezy at hotmail.com (Hugo Alvarez)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 23:26:38 -0500
Subject: Hack MSN
Message-ID: 

Hello Cyber punk:
 I visit your site and i think is VERY GOOD, congratulatinos for it... i wanna ask you something:
Do you have any material about hacking MSN to see password or the messages when they're writing it? -> anything, document, programs... 

PLZ  REPLY TO ME!!!! I BEG ON YOU... MASTER
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From measl at mfn.org  Sun Oct 21 21:27:37 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 23:27:37 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Ridge is lying, spores are pro
In-Reply-To: <3BD1A661.93BE2D9B@sarin.com>
Message-ID: 



On Sat, 20 Oct 2001, Khoder bin Hakkin wrote:

> In Washington, Ridge told reporters the anthrax analyzed in the United
> States had not been ``weaponized,'' meaning it had not been manipulated
> to
> facilitate inhalation by potential victims.

Actually, "weaponization" of germs is a two faceted thing.  Only one
aspect is the manufacture of an easily transmissable germ.  The other, and
by far more important side of "weaponization" is the manufacturing of a
germ which is highly resistant to treatment.

So far, it looks like the producers of Anthrax Theatre have only mastered
the easy part.

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Sun Oct 21 23:30:49 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 23:30:49 -0700
Subject: And another one bites the dust, another one down, another 
  one down
In-Reply-To: <178AF14C-C69D-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>
References: <3.0.6.32.20011021180217.00828e00@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011021232730.03608a10@idiom.com>


At 08:30 PM 10/21/2001 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>I saw the Sturgeon General explaining that "we now have better treatment 
>methods."

Depends a lot on which strain it is - some varieties of anthrax are
treatable by penicillin and some other common antibiotics,
while others are resistent and need Cipro.
Unfortunately, telling them apart takes a couple of days of culturing,
during which time your patient dies if you guessed wrong,
but apparently the penicillins do a much better job when they work
without being anywhere near as nasty for the patient.




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Sun Oct 21 23:34:06 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 23:34:06 -0700
Subject: Is FBI's Robert Blitzer related to Wolf Blitzer?
In-Reply-To: <3bd2d047194ae9cc8568c7bdc376dd66@mixmaster.nullify.org>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011021233125.0360e0c0@idiom.com>


The London Times article on FBI torture referred to
"Robert Blitzer, a former head of the FBIs counter-terrorism section".
Does anybody know if he's related to journalist Wolf Blitzer?




From tcmay at got.net  Sun Oct 21 23:41:54 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 23:41:54 -0700
Subject: And another one bites the dust, another one down, another 
  one down
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20011021232730.03608a10@idiom.com>
Message-ID: 


On Sunday, October 21, 2001, at 11:30 PM, Bill Stewart wrote:

> At 08:30 PM 10/21/2001 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>> I saw the Sturgeon General explaining that "we now have better 
>> treatment methods."
>
> Depends a lot on which strain it is - some varieties of anthrax are
> treatable by penicillin and some other common antibiotics,
> while others are resistent and need Cipro.
> Unfortunately, telling them apart takes a couple of days of culturing,
> during which time your patient dies if you guessed wrong,
> but apparently the penicillins do a much better job when they work
> without being anywhere near as nasty for the patient.

No, this is not the difference.


--Tim May

--Tim May
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only 
exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from 
the Public Treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for 
the candidate promising the most benefits from the Public Treasury with 
the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy 
always followed by dictatorship." --Alexander Fraser Tyler




From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Sun Oct 21 23:44:02 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 23:44:02 -0700
Subject: Why Plan-9 licensing?
In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@einstein.ssz.com on Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 08:30:19PM -0500
References: <20011021171843.A2205@navel.introspect> 
Message-ID: <20011021234401.B6845@navel.introspect>

on Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 08:30:19PM -0500, Jim Choate (ravage at einstein.ssz.com) wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Oct 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote:
> 
> > Summer, June/July, IIRC.  I've done a couple of look-ups since.  There's
> > been little additional news or information (I'm not saying none, I'm
> > saying little).  OpenBSD, a relatively little-known free 'nix, gets
> > rather more press and community coverage.
> 
> You need to be on the mailing list. There is almost constant changes.
> You can also visit the wiki link at Bell Labs for the most current
> info.

I'll stop by.

> > proposed licenses and terms.  I'm rather convinced that novelty, all
> > else being equal, is bad.
> 
> Can't disagree more.

Care to expand (off list if you wish).  It's an area of interest.

Nutshell argument:  license interactions are factorial.  Interaction
complexity reduces overall value of a codebase, and tends to marginalize
minority licenses.

By various methods (Debian package listings, Sourceforge projects), the
GPL or LPGL are applied to some 84% of free software.  A tally from
January of this year:

Of the roughly 8,800 listed projects with a license on SourceForge:
                                                                 
    8,384 are based on an OSI approved license.                  
      208 are based on an other or proprietary license.                 
      235 are public domain.                          

Of the OSI licenses, the breakdown is as follows (note that results may
vary daily as projects are added and removed):

    GNU GPL:    6,178	74%
    GNP LGPL:     844   10%
    BSD:          480    6%
    Artistic:     302    4%
    MozPL:        114    1%
    MIT:          110    1%
    Python:        78    1%
    QPL:           60    1%
    zlib/libpng:   46    1%
    IBM-PL:        10    1%
    MITRE (CVW):    4    0%

As mentioned, 84% of projects are licensed under the GPL.  Compatibly
licensed projects include software under the BSD (revised) terms, MIT,
Artistic, and Python (most recent) licenses.  Major QPL projects are
licensed compatibly with the GPL.  Major MozPL projects are licensed
compatibly with the GPL.  Given some room for variance (there are
non-compatible BSD, and MozPL projects), some 90-95% of projects are
likely licensed under terms compatible with the GNU GPL.
Noncompatibility puts you in a rather small mindshare camp, with a
serious sacrifice of network effects (Metcalfe's Law).

This does assume that a project's intent is to become relatively widely
used and supported by broad mindshare.  As these are among the principle
technical advantages offered by free software / open source, it's not an
advantage to discard lightly.

Per the FSF's analysis, Plan 9 is, again, not open source, free
software, or GPL compatible.  This is a significant strategic handicap.
Moreover, the bulk of terms in the Plan 9 license serve the corporate
interests of the software's owner -- there's little quid pro quo for the
developer or community.  This is typical of corporate licenses,
particularly first drafts.  The evolution of IBM's own Jikes licensing
is instructive.

If the code exists for its own purposes, it may not matter.  From a
broader community perspective, you could do better.

Peace.

-- 
Karsten M. Self        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?             Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html
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From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Sun Oct 21 23:47:47 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 23:47:47 -0700
Subject: Karsten M. Self shows himself to be clueless, again
In-Reply-To: <684FA4B8-C6AD-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>; from
  tcmay@got.net on Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 10:26:55PM -0700
References: <20011021183407.B3422@navel.introspect>
  <684FA4B8-C6AD-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <20011021234747.C6845@navel.introspect>

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From blancw at cnw.com  Mon Oct 22 00:14:15 2001
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 00:14:15 -0700
Subject: Has Steve Schear earned killing? Verdict is out.
In-Reply-To: <7F6205A0-C6A9-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: 


>From Tim, Killer Cypherpunk, in a couple of posts about a half-hour apart:

:Free people are free to fire those who form communal organizations. 
:Anyone who disagrees with this point has earned killing.

 [and]

:Fucking creep. Where's that sniper rifle, Bob?
-----------------



Someone told me that, deep down, Tim is really a sensitive kinda guy.


  ..
Blanc




From morten at hotpost.dk  Sun Oct 21 15:15:47 2001
From: morten at hotpost.dk (Morten Liebach)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 00:15:47 +0200
Subject: Why Plan-9?
In-Reply-To: <3BD33A64.3C62AD97@cybershamanix.com>
References:  <3BD33A64.3C62AD97@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <20011022001547.A2410@hotpost.dk>


On 21, Oct, 2001 at 04:13:26PM -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>      I agree, Plan 9 looks very interesting, but then, so does MOSIX
> http://www.mosix.org/ which is also a distributed (kernel implemented)
> OS based on linux.

In our local Linux User Group we tried setting it up 2 years ago, and it
was quite easy, and really funny to see how the jobs were shufled
around.

It worked very well, but (at least back then) there were no crypto in
it, only a distributed filesystem, but we didn't try that.

Have a nice day
                                 Morten

-- 
Morten Liebach 
PGP-key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xD796A4EB
https://pc89225.stofanet.dk/ || http://pc89225.stofanet.dk/




From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Sun Oct 21 15:16:47 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 00:16:47 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: ENVELOPE STUFFING JOB
In-Reply-To: <20011019155447.B1123@positron.mit.edu>
Message-ID: 


On Fri, 19 Oct 2001, Riad S. Wahby wrote:

> How much laboratory experience do you have?  Specifically, we're
> looking for people with experience handling white powders.  Also,

Laminar flow bench, dude. And it's brown, not white, but you knew that
already.

> please let us know if your vaccinations are not up-to-date.

What, you're not using the Obolensk strain?




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sun Oct 21 22:27:23 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 00:27:23 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: <3BD3382E.15575.111B11@localhost>
Message-ID: 



On Sun, 21 Oct 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote:

>     --
> On 20 Oct 2001, at 16:31, Jim Choate wrote:
> > What it takes to have reasonable living standards and 
> > sufficient resources to help ones children do better than 
> > themselves. The reality is that these sweatshops do exist, 
> > that they do exploit the workers, and that they are 
> > specifically managed to keep the workers from exploiting 
> > economic, social, and educational resources. Why? Because 
> > if the producers allow this behaviour they put themselves 
> > out of business.
> 
>  Commie bullshit.

Their rational is more motivated by their own economic growth than the
community, so 'commie' would hardly describe their viewpoint. Unrestrained
economic masturbation might fit...


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sun Oct 21 22:35:21 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 00:35:21 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: <65A8B6DA-C6AA-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: 



On Sun, 21 Oct 2001, Tim May wrote:

> We should "close down" the horrible sweatshops in Asia, India, South 
> America, and other hellholes. (Africa is not counted because they are 
> below sweat shop standards.)

Nonsense. What we should do is bring them under rule of law and ensure
that their efforts are rewarded with an equitable share of the profits
their efforts created. The very basis of free market economies, one is
rewarded FAIRLY for their efforts.

The real question, one that is probably unanswerable, is who gets to
decide what is 'fair'. Not only is there no 'fair' way to decide, but
there's no one universal definition of 'fair'.

So, whatever system we put in place must be based on relative
methodologies and measures. The next question is who gets to decide those,
followed by who gets to exercise them.

So, we need a system that is equitable (with respect to access),
representative (in the sense of everyone has a say in it), and limited (in
that some behaviours are outside the bounds of regulation - speech,
personal possession of a firearm).

C-A-C-L doesn't qualify on several points.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Mon Oct 22 00:54:33 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 00:54:33 -0700
Subject: Why Plan-9 licensing?
In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@einstein.ssz.com on Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 02:20:34AM -0500
References: <20011021234401.B6845@navel.introspect> 
Message-ID: <20011022005432.B7384@navel.introspect>

on Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 02:20:34AM -0500, Jim Choate (ravage at einstein.ssz.com) wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Oct 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote:
> 
> > Nutshell argument:  license interactions are factorial.
> 
> How so? Proof?

Sorry.  Combinatorial.  Not quite as extreme.  From a legal standpoint,
interactions of all combinations of licenses must be considered.  The
interesting cases usually reduce to a much smaller number.  

The trend in free software licensing has been strong reluctance to
accepting novel licenses.  A strong case for benefit is generally
requested, many licenses boil down to ego, corporate politics, or
failure to understand free software / open source concepts -- the
licenses simply aren't either, again, Plan 9 is a case in point.

There's also been a tendency among major projects to seek compatibility
(usually through dual or multiple licensing) with the GPL, Sun and
Mozilla being two cases in point.

> > Interaction complexity reduces overall value of a codebase, and
> > tends to marginalize minority licenses.
> 
> Interaction for who, the author or the user? 

Interaction between licenses.  It's more overhead for the developer to
deal with. 

Case in point:  Tom's Root/Boot.  GNU/Linux on a floppy, 1.77 MB.
Licenses themselves comprised some 50KB, significant for this task.
Terms for compliance that require license and binary to occupy the same
media in use are not acceptable for the technical task (fortunately none
of the major free software licenses require this).  OpenBSD has
eliminated several packages from Donald J. Bernstein due to his
licensing clauses, despite their being technically excellent (if non
standards compliant) software.  Any number of proposals cross the OSI's
door which exclude specific types of use or transfer.

It's too much overhead for developers to consider most of these, they'll
stick to a half-dozen or so known (or highly similar) licenses.  Again,
GPL, LGPL, BSD/MIT, and Mozilla cover a broad range of strategic
interests.

> All license start out in the minority. It's a competition in a way.

What are you competing for?  What characteristics of a license will
"win" the competition?  This isn't software domination, it's more a
protocol for collaborative development.  Once you've got that nailed
down, stop dicking with the damned lawyers, and start writing code.

Peace.

-- 
Karsten M. Self        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?             Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html
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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sun Oct 21 23:03:36 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 01:03:36 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Has Steve Schear earned killing? Verdict is out.
In-Reply-To: <7F6205A0-C6A9-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: 



On Sun, 21 Oct 2001, Tim May wrote:

> "Any employee of our Company is free to "organize."  That day wlll be 
> his last day. Good luck, and fuck you!"
> 
> Free people are free to fire those who form communal organizations. 
> Anyone who disagrees with this point has earned killing.

No, they haven't. A disagreement of view is never in and of itself
justification for any physical act.

Why should you mind if these individual of a like mind decide they want to
re-negotiate their employment contract? Isn't that the 'free' in 'free
market'? The basis of free market economics is a give and take. The point
being that all parties are reasonably happy because they're reasonably
certain they got a fair and equitable deal. The fact the workers don't
feel that way is sufficient justification, in economic terms at least, for
their actions. The reality is that as much as some skin flint might like to 
keep paying 1920's salaries in 1970, the reality of the market doesn't
support those sorts of strategies. If the employer keeps too hard a line
nobody will work for him. If in fact the company can increase
productivity, lower costs, and increase profit why shouldn't the workers
reap some of that benefit. They are in reality as much a part of the
company, and fitting a share in the profits, as the 'board of diretors' or
the 'investors'.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From saeq at gmx.net  Mon Oct 22 01:03:40 2001
From: saeq at gmx.net (Luthor Blisset)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 01:03:40 -0700
Subject: fanaticism, left anarchists, and CACLing
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20011021215710.01fe91d0@mail.well.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011020130355.03dac308@pop3.lvcm.com>
 <20011020134200.B18679@cluebot.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20011019162608.038b25a0@pop3.lvcm.com>
 <00e601c158e4$70b40bc0$01000001@PATRICK>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20011019162608.038b25a0@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011021221329.021c4910@pop.gmx.net>


At 10:02 PM 10/21/01 -0700, someone with the password to declan at well.com wrote:

>I'm actually surprised to see Steve launch into a critique of 
>laissez-faire capitalism here on cypherpunks, of all places. One can admit 
>that globalization has ill effects (mostly, bricks through windows of 
>Starbucks thrown by bored, upper-middle-class, college-age protesters), 
>certainly.

         Without people using black bloc tactics, activists would have 
received no press coverage... Not to mention the benefit to be gained by 
having a radical faction around to make your moderates look more, well, 
moderate - a technique as old as the American Revolution, and quite 
effective for Ghadi and King.
         But no - for many CACL types, those using black bloc tactics were 
just bored, upper-middle-class, college-age, uninformed dumbshits 
pointlessly throwing rocks through starbucks windows - an image similar in 
accuracy to that of the bored, upper-middle-class, insularly utopian 
randroid masturbating to "Guns & Ammo".
         I'm constantly amazed by the misplaced animosity many CACL types 
display towards the left-anarchist crowd. I think Bruce Sterling said (in 
Holy Fire) "Fanatics always hate and fear their own dissidents far more 
then they loathe the bourgeoisie. By this ye shall know them."
         I wince at fanaticism, whatever its source, but I wince most at 
the shortsightedness of CACL types who, in their self-righteousness, scorn 
those who could easily be their closest allies. From everything I've seen 
(and I've seen a lot), they agree on decentralization [1], agree on 
encryption, agree on "victimless crimes", agree on weapons possession [2], 
agree on intellectual property, and agree on individual private property [3].

>But when responding to claims that factory workers in poorer countries are 
>only being paid $2/hour or whatnot, it makes sense to ask: Is this worse 
>than their other alternatives, like mud huts in villages?

         Who said it was? Have you seen anybody protesting against the 
opportunity that world markets can bring to poor people the world over? Or 
have you seen lots of people protesting secrecy-cloaked treaties designed 
to entrench government-supported monopolies?
         Make no mistake - that's what the WTO, the FTAA, and their ilk are 
all about. They are not about free markets; not about competition at all - 
they are about increasing the scope in which current multinational 
monopolies and duopolies (which, for the most part, would not exist without 
constant government support) can sell things. That is not the free-market way.
         For once and for all: Laissez-faire capitalism does not imply the 
existence of corporate entities! The left anarchists I know want to keep 
the means of production and distribution privately (or cooperatively) 
owned, and keep the free market of goods, services, and ideas... But they 
want to drop the notion of state-sanctioned corporate entities with their 
own rights, privileges, and liabilities distinct from those of their members.
         What's so bad about that?

-- Luthor //Remembering is copying and copying is THEFT

[1] They don't like either corporate or state centralization of power, but 
neither do you, right? Right...? AFIAK, Left-anarchists and CACL types 
oppose corporate and governmental centralization of power - it's just that 
the left-anarchists focus on corporate power, and CACL types focus on 
government power... And corporations can't exist without the state.

[2] Who was it who said "Weapons embody power, and I prefer to see power in 
the hands of the people" - was it John Galt? John Locke? John Lott? Oh 
wait, it was Naomi Klein! Doh! (Chomsky disagrees with her, though, and I'd 
love to talk to him about that - I don't think he's thought it through)

[3] All the left anarchists I know think they own their shoes, as you own 
yours. However, they question the utility of the corporate legal 
construction, and many (most? all?) deem corporate property (like 
intellectual property) a dangerous, shortsighted fiction whose time has 
come and gone.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sun Oct 21 23:08:53 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 01:08:53 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20011021215710.01fe91d0@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: 



On Sun, 21 Oct 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> To argue against people voluntarily entering into market-based transactions 
> with each other is so a-economical and contrary to cypherpunk philosophies* 
> -- wlel, I just don't think it's worth taking the time to go any further in 
> a response.

But they are not fully voluntary. The reality is that people must eat and
provide for themselves or die. That is what those people are doing. If
they had a realistic opportunity to change to a 8-5 job they would take
it. The character of 'persistance' of this problem alone damns the 'it's
their own fault' argument.

These people have jobs that suck. The thesis is that they should take
higher paying jobs. Assuming there are such jobs, why aren't they taking
them? Now, if the jobs aren't there, why not? Either line of reasoning
leads to one inescapable conslusion, there is at least one factor that is
not being accounted for in your model.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From freematt at coil.com  Sun Oct 21 22:10:19 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 01:10:19 -0400
Subject: FBI's Trial Balloon- Torture
Message-ID: 


[Note from Matthew Gaylor:  It is an established procedure of a 
government to first hint at something that they are considering to 
gauge the reaction.  This has got to be one of the more disturbing 
items I've read over the course of the last couple of weeks.  The US 
constitution and bill of rights recognizes, not grants rights.  Any 
FBI agent who considers torturing a suspect should be fired and then 
prosecuted for conspiracy to violate civil rights.  Such an agent is 
also a traitor to the US constitution.  FBI agents when they take 
their oath pledge their allegiance to the Constitution against all 
enemies foreign and domestic. Any law enforcement officer who 
tortures suspects or carts suspects off to be tortured in a foreign 
land certainly deserve to be considered Un-American and an enemy of 
the rule of law.]



Silence of 4 Terror Probe Suspects Poses Dilemma

By Walter Pincus
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, October 21, 2001; Page A06


FBI and Justice Department investigators are increasingly frustrated 
by the silence of jailed suspected associates of Osama bin Laden's al 
Qaeda network, and some are beginning to that say that traditional 
civil liberties may have to be cast aside if they are to extract 
information about the Sept. 11 attacks and terrorist plans.

[...]

Said one experienced FBI agent involved in the investigation: "We are 
known for humanitarian treatment, so basically we are stuck. . . . 
Usually there is some incentive, some angle to play, what you can do 
for them. But it could get to that spot where we could go to pressure 
. . . where we won't have a choice, and we are probably getting 
there."

Among the alternative strategies under discussion are using drugs or 
pressure tactics, such as those employed occasionally by Israeli 
interrogators, to extract information. Another idea is extraditing 
the suspects to allied countries where security services sometimes 
employ threats to family members or resort to torture.

Under U.S. law, interrogators in criminal cases can lie to suspects, 
but information obtained by physical pressure, inhumane treatment or 
torture cannot be used in a trial. In addition, the government 
interrogators who used such tactics could be sued by the victim or 
charged with battery by the government.

[...]

**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week)
Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722  ICQ: 106212065   Archived at 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/
**************************************************************************




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Oct 22 00:19:26 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 02:19:26 -0500
Subject: Plan 9 Products
Message-ID: <3BD3C87E.6F85D00E@ssz.com>


http://www.vitanuova.com/plan9/licensing.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Oct 22 00:20:34 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 02:20:34 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Why Plan-9 licensing?
In-Reply-To: <20011021234401.B6845@navel.introspect>
Message-ID: 




On Sun, 21 Oct 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote:

> Nutshell argument:  license interactions are factorial.

How so? Proof?

> Interaction complexity reduces overall value of a codebase, and tends to 
> marginalize minority licenses.

Interaction for who, the author or the user? All license start out in the
minority. It's a competition in a way. I've also got some question about
exactly which of the Plan 9 licenses the reviews were for. There have been
several over the last couple of years. As objections have been raised
they've been addressed. I'll send a URL along to the list...


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From justjumping at yahoo.com  Mon Oct 22 02:37:12 2001
From: justjumping at yahoo.com (justjumping at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 02:37:12 -0700
Subject: Why WAIT??? Refinance NOW!!!
Message-ID: <15tf4c0r3dtt2a1.ovisyv8mv63ijavf3r3@slip-12-64-223-228.mis.prserv.net>


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From nobody at dizum.com  Sun Oct 21 18:20:17 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 03:20:17 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Beefing up security at America's dams and reservoirs
Message-ID: <9d33891c6d97b5733419e72bf1db3618@dizum.com>


National Public Radio (NPR) Morning Edition  (11:00 AM AM ET)
Thursday, Oct. 18, 2001

Beefing up security at America's dams and reservoirs

BOB EDWARDS, host: This is MORNING EDITION from NPR News. I'm Bob
Edwards.

Security is tight at many of the nation's 70,000 reservoirs and dams.
There's concern about water contamination from chemical or biological
agents, and about possible attempts to breach the dams. NPR's Howard
Berkes reports. HOWARD BERKES reporting:

All across the country now, guards are on patrol and checkpoints are
in place in an attempt to keep terrorists away from dams. Hoover Dam,
near Las Vegas, has a major regional highway straddling its crest, but
roadblocks as far as 20 miles away hold trucks, buses and big RVs
back. And floating patrols behind and below the dam keep boats away.
Bob Walsh is spokesman for the US Bureau of Reclamation, which manages
Hoover Dam.

Mr. BOB WALSH (US Bureau of Reclamation): You don't want large
vehicles carrying explosives,!
 for example, to be allowed across the
dam. Gasoline tankers, for example, are prohibited from crossing the
dam at this point as well; any type of a hazardous material.

BERKES: The September 11th attacks prompted similar security at some
of the bureau's 500 other dams in 17 Western states. John Keyes is the
commissioner of the Bureau of Reclamation.

Commissioner JOHN KEYES (US Bureau of Reclamation): There is no
specific threat against any of our specific facilities, let me put it
that way. But potential for terrorist activity is being provided for.
We are at a high level of security at all of our critical facilities,
both to protect against damage to the facilities themselves and to the
water supplies.

BERKES: The risk at these facilities is enormous. And it's not just
from flooding downstream if a dam is breached or fails. Sixty-one
million people depend on the structures for water, including farmers
producing 60 percent of the nation's vegetables. Bureau dams generate
!
enough power for six million homes. They're a tempting target for
terrorists, says Tim Brown, a senior analyst at globalsecurity.org.

Mr. TIM BROWN (Senior Analyst, Globalsecurity.org): The entire economy
in the Southwest is dependent upon the electricity and the irrigation
that the dams afford. And the loss of any or all of the dams along the
Colorado River Basin would cripple the economy of the Southwest for
years to come, and could have potentially significant effects on the
US economy in the long run.

BERKES: That's also true for other regions and hundreds of communities
in all parts of the country with critical links to the nation's 70,000
dams. Most were built long before terrorism was considered a strong
domestic threat, notes Bill Bingham, a dam designer and engineer.
Bingham is also president of the US Society on Dams, a national group
focusing on engineering and safety.

Mr. BILL BINGHAM (US Society of Dams): Our dams in the past have not
been designed for severe!
 blast incidents like we would see with a
truckload of explosives across the top a dam, or an aircraft loaded
with fuel crashing into the downstream face of the dam. I don't think
that design criteria encompasses those kinds of issues.

BERKES: So it's unclear, Bingham says, whether dams can be breached by
such attacks. He's calling for a national risk assessment to determine
dam vulnerabilities and ways to protect them.

Mr. BINGHAM: Making sure that you've got the properties as secure as
you can make them; limiting access, and doing regular patrols and
those types of things. And having a current emergency action plan in
the event that there would be some kind of an attack on one of these
facilities.

BERKES: John Keyes of the US Bureau of Reclamations says he's already
accessing the risk at bureau dams, while also bolstering security.

Mr. KEYES: Terrorism is nothing new to the security for our
facilities. We've deal with Earth Liberation Front and the
ecoterrorism folks f!
or several years. We have prepared for
contingencies involving contamination of reservoir water. We have
emergency preparedness plans for all of our facilities that deal with
inundation downstream. We have a comprehensive dam safety program, as
well as a general security program for protection of those vital
infrastructures.

Keyes acknowledges one problem. The bureau has only one armed security
force at Hoover Dam. The rest of its dams depend on unarmed guards and
voluntary help from state and local police who have limited authority
on federal property. Congress is considering legislation to address
that. Bill Bingham of the US Society of Dams, worries more about
state, local and private structures.

Mr. BINGHAM: There are many privately owned or even publicly
owned--non-federal publicly owned dams that do not have emergency
action plans, or security plans.

BERKES: Bingham says some dam owners don't have the money or staff for
more security, and he says states have inconsi!
stent requirements for
emergency action plans. Still, state, local and private dam managers
say they're bolstering their security with state and local police.
Howard Berkes, NPR News.




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Mon Oct 22 06:00:22 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 06:00:22 -0700
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


Inchoate gets it wrong again.  This is where that remedial reading course
would come in handy.

He wrote:

> The very basis of free market economies,
> one is rewarded FAIRLY for their efforts.

No, quite clearly the basis of free market economies is FREEDOM.  That's why
they're called "FREE market economies" (not "FAIR market economies.")

(Comprehension test for Jimbo:  Is oral sex, sex?)


 S a n d y




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Mon Oct 22 06:13:47 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 06:13:47 -0700
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


Inchoate is remedial logic course fodder:

> But they are not fully voluntary. The
> reality is that people must eat and
> provide for themselves or die. That is
> what those people are doing.

By this same Inchoate "logic," no one is free because, by our nature, we
cannot fly like a bird.  Political freedom means the opportunity to make
choices within the context of our circumstances.  Yeah, the "sweatshop"
workers' choices are lousy, but they have, in fact, made their choice to
improve their lives by working in the "sweatshops" as opposed to starving on
their own retched little plots of land.  Good for them.


 S a n d y




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Mon Oct 22 03:35:40 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 06:35:40 -0400
Subject: Retribution Time
References: 
Message-ID: <3BD3F67C.DA432C11@acmenet.net>


measl at mfn.org wrote:

> Wrong.  Nomen has long since placed him/herself into the position of not
> being taken seriously.  Having groups of people who choose to turn a deaf
> ear is a pretty real negative consequence, IMHO.

There are several Nomens. Some are blithering imbeciles who have somehow
been taught to use a remailer, some have something useful to say.


-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Oct 22 06:56:05 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 06:56:05 -0700
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011021201236.038d3d48@pop3.lvcm.com>
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20011021215710.01fe91d0@mail.well.com>
  <5.1.0.14.0.20011020130355.03dac308@pop3.lvcm.com>
  <20011020134200.B18679@cluebot.com>
  <5.1.0.14.0.20011019162608.038b25a0@pop3.lvcm.com>
  <00e601c158e4$70b40bc0$01000001@PATRICK>
  <5.1.0.14.0.20011019162608.038b25a0@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: <200110221102.HAA04765@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>


Cypherpunks generously accommodates a lot of viewpoints 
and is not limited to laissez-faire capitalism, nor, as far as the
archives show, any particular political/social/economic world
view other than a polite, wordy, dissent against authority.

It is a forum where a diverse range of possibilities are expressed,
exhorted, denied, ridiculed, misrepresented, lied about, screamed
murder in favor of, plonked, anonymized, and bone-headededly
edventured. Narcissism happily rules, not laissez-faire, a minor
variation.

Now and then a cpunk ever so slightly hints that a tiny change of
mind, or a thoughtful consideration of another viewpoint, are in
the offing. But that openmindedness is rare, not only on cpunks,
which after all is not terribly different from reality in which 
denial of other realities is exactly what pleasures.

With respect for Tim's right to say what he likes, I doubt anybody 
here needs killing, except, in the rhetorical reality of this poly-lingual 
forum. Shouting about killing, well, my experience is that stone 
cold killers never tell you what they are going to do to you. The silent
ones are scary, not the shakespeares who generously entertain,
educate, edventure with imaginary tales of what if.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Oct 22 05:12:51 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 07:12:51 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Guatemala - Public Announcement (fwd)
Message-ID: 



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 08:56:22 -0400
From: PA List Manager 
To: DOSTRAVEL at LISTS.STATE.GOV
Subject: Guatemala - Public Announcement

Guatemala - Public Announcement
October 18, 2001

The Department of State is releasing the following text as a Public
Announcement for Americans traveling abroad.  Embassy Guatemala released it
as a Warden Message for Americans resident in Guatemala on October 17.

The U.S. Embassy has received information that individuals may be targeting
American citizens in Antigua for violent attack.  These attacks may follow
staged armed robberies or automobile accidents.   The U.S. Embassy and
Guatemalan police are investigating.   In the meantime, American citizens
throughout Guatemala should take proper precautions for their personal
safety and avoid any situation that appears to be unusual or potentially
dangerous.

For further information on travel to Guatemala, please consult the
Department of State's latest Consular Information Sheet, available on the
Bureau of Consular Affairs home page at Http://travel.state.gov.  The U.S.
Embassy is located in Guatemala at 7-01 Avenida de la Reforma, Zone 10;
telephone (011-502-2-331-1541; web site at
http://usembassy.state.gov/guatemala.

This Public Announcement expires February 17, 2002.

***********************************************************
See http://travel.state.gov/travel_warnings.html for
State Department Travel Warnings
************************************************************
To change your subscription, go to http://www.state.gov/www/listservs_cms.html




From piolenc at mozcom.com  Sun Oct 21 16:45:11 2001
From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 07:45:11 +0800
Subject: IP: Beyond Carnivore: FBI Eyes Packet Taps (fwd)
References: 
Message-ID: <3BD35E07.FB2CC3BB@mozcom.com>




Eugene Leitl wrote:

> >October 18, 2001
> >Beyond Carnivore: FBI Eyes Packet Taps
> >By  Max Smetannikov
> >
> >Expect the FBI to expand its Internet wiretapping program, says a
> >source familiar with the plan.
> >
> >Stewart Baker, a partner with law firm Steptoe & Johnson, is a former
> >general counsel to the National Security Agency. He says the FBI has
> >spent the last two years developing a new surveillance architecture
> >that would concentrate Internet traffic in several key locations
> >where all packets, not just e-mail, could be wiretapped. It is now
> >planning to begin implementing this architecture using the powers it
> >has under existing wiretapping laws.

God, how dumb can you get?

Not only is this a systematic, police-state invasion of privacy with
international repercussions, but it defeats the purpose of the
redundant, distributed Internet architecture. The invasion of privacy
can be defeated by strong encryption and other measures discussed on
this list, but the vulnerability created by concentrating data links can
only be fixed by setting up high-bandwidth channels that bypass US
jurisdiction.

Marc de Piolenc
Philippines




From xeni at xeni.net  Mon Oct 22 08:13:26 2001
From: xeni at xeni.net (Xeni Jardin)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 08:13:26 -0700
Subject: Guatemala - Public Announcement (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


This is not news. The DOS advisories for Guatemala have said essentially one
version or another of "Americans are in danger of being targeted for violent
attack in Guatemala" for literally years. US travelers and residents are
considered soft mugging targets; there's longstanding political hostility; and
there's been intense hostility in more recent years against Americans whom many
Guatemalans believe are exporting Guatemalan children and in some cases,
children's internal organs, in organized orphan-trafficking to foreign
countries. Not a new warning by any means.

XJ




From honig at sprynet.com  Mon Oct 22 08:24:58 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 08:24:58 -0700
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: <3BD40150.4BF0BC75@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
References: <20011020134200.B18679@cluebot.com>
  <5.1.0.14.0.20011019162608.038b25a0@pop3.lvcm.com>
  <00e601c158e4$70b40bc0$01000001@PATRICK>
  <5.1.0.14.0.20011019162608.038b25a0@pop3.lvcm.com>
  <3.0.6.32.20011020144953.008189d0@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011022082458.0082b370@pop.sprynet.com>


At 12:21 PM 10/22/01 +0100, Ken Brown wrote:
>David Honig wrote:
>
>> No one forces a farmer to the city to look for an industrial job.
>
>In general, no. But it happens now and again.  

When someone initiates force, they have "earned" a physical reaction.

...

>There have been plenty of situations where are worker is not free to
>choose employment or to leave employment. Everything from outright
>slavery to  various tricks with company stores and debt bondage. 

So?  That people are coerced shows only that they value coerced life
more than resistance at that point.  This is how the coercers exist.

>And if someone comes along with an army, conquers the country and says
>"we own the land now, work for us or starve" most people will "choose"
>not to starve. 

That is called losing a war.  Historically, males were killed, children
and women enslaved.  It has nothing to do with morality, only with what
the winners can get way with.

You're mistaking the long and continuing history of force-based atrocities
with 
morality.

I still maintain: the transition from an dispersed agricultural to urban
'civilization' does not need central control or forceful coercion.

[And this bums me out --I loathe cities.]

Similarly the transition to 'service' economy, as other 'civilizations' take
over industrial production because they can do so more efficiently
("cheaper"), 
and intercivilization trade is somewhat free, is *natural*.

-----

"A libertarian is a person who believes that no one has the right,
under any circumstances, to initiate force against another human
being, or to advocate or delegate its initiation. Those who act
consistently with this principle are libertarians, whether they
realize it or not. Those who fail to act consistently with it are
_not_ libertarians, regardless of what they may claim." -- LNS




From tcmay at got.net  Mon Oct 22 08:44:09 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 08:44:09 -0700
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Monday, October 22, 2001, at 06:03 AM, Sampo Syreeni wrote:
>
> Sure, unions are good and using coercion to stop them from coming into
> being is bad. But that only applies as long as unions are granted no 
> legal
> status apart from other voluntary organizations, and participating in a
> strike is taken as what it is, a refusal to work. Likely a breach of an
> enforceable contract, too. Any "workers' rights" beyond that are 
> something
> you'll have a *really hard time* justifying. Asymmetry does not help,
> either.
>

"Sure, unions are good" is not at all obvious to me. Why do you claim 
this?

Most labor unions are simply rent-seeking clubs designed to cement the 
status quo. Teacher's unions in the U.S. are a prime example: once the 
union got powerful enough, it fought for a tenure-type system which made 
it nearly impossible to remove those who taught poorly and to reward 
those who taught especially well.

I've never belonged to a labor union of any kind, and they are 
essentially absent from the chip and computer industries.

 From what I have seen, labor unions are a collectivist evil.


--Tim May
"The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any 
member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to 
others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient 
warrant." --John Stuart Mill




From grocha at neutraldomain.org  Mon Oct 22 10:09:30 2001
From: grocha at neutraldomain.org (Gabriel Rocha)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 10:09:30 -0700
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: <20011022065847.1E44C259C3@suburbia.net>; from proff@iq.org
  on Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 04:58:47PM +1000
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20011021215710.01fe91d0@mail.well.com>
  <20011022065847.1E44C259C3@suburbia.net>
Message-ID: <20011022100930.H40293@neutraldomain.org>


		On Mon, Oct 22, at 04:58PM, Julian Assange wrote:
| This years Nobel for Economics won by George A. Akerlof, A.  Michael
| Spence and Joseph E. Stiglitz "for their analysis of markets with
| assymetric information" is typical.

The Nobel priye was won by people who published ideas that nobel
laureate FA Hayek published in the 30's.

| To counter this sort of assymetry. Employees naturally start trying
| to collectivise to increase their information processing and
| bargaining power. That's right. UNIONS Declan. Those devious entities
| that first world companies and governments have had a hand in
| suppressing all over the third world by curtailing freedom of
| association, speech and other basic political rights we take for
| granted.

And yet, if in a union, I am posed a similar question as the
sweatshop worker. Do I dare go against the union and risk being a
pariah, or do i simply follow the herd and fuck over the businessman
whose hand feeds me? There is only asymetry if you presume the
employee to be ignorant, or uneducated or plain outright stupid. If
the exchange is totally voluntary, the owner will present a wage
that the employee may or may not accept along with terms and
conditions, which the employee is also free to accept or decline. 
Granted, in the world of unskilled labor, this doesnt seem as evident, 
but that goes back around the circle on why the work is unskilled and 
why the worker is there. Life handed him a shittier set of choices than
the guy whose hobby was network security and has more bargaining
power at the negotiation table with an employer. I firmly disagree
with the suppression of unions, but by that same token I firmly
disagree that an employer should be mandated to keep an employee who
is a part of a union. It is the employees choice to unioniye, it
should sure as hell be the employers choice to say as Tim so
galantly put it "Fuck Off!".

-- 
Churchill, Winston Leonard Spencer --On the eve of Britain's entry
into World War II:
	"If you will not fight for right when you can easily win 
without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be 
sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will 
have to fight with all odds against you and only a precarious 
chance of survival. There may be even a worse fate. You may have 
to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to 
perish than to live as slaves.




From papergift1234 at aol.com  Mon Oct 22 10:17:17 2001
From: papergift1234 at aol.com (Linda)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 10:17:17
Subject: 
Message-ID: <200110221415.HAA21368@toad.com>





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From tcmay at got.net  Mon Oct 22 10:27:00 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 10:27:00 -0700
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: <20011022100930.H40293@neutraldomain.org>
Message-ID: <0011DFA8-C712-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Monday, October 22, 2001, at 10:09 AM, Gabriel Rocha wrote:

> 		On Mon, Oct 22, at 04:58PM, Julian Assange wrote:
> | This years Nobel for Economics won by George A. Akerlof, A.  Michael
> | Spence and Joseph E. Stiglitz "for their analysis of markets with
> | assymetric information" is typical.
>
> The Nobel priye was won by people who published ideas that nobel
> laureate FA Hayek published in the 30's.

This is one of the problems with the whole "Economics" prize. There's 
not even a prize in _mathematics_, fer chrissake, so why one in 
_economics_? Alfred Nobel certainly did not endow an economics prize. 
(The econ prize gets its money from some other source.)

The Econ prize was only established in the 70s, and now the prize 
committee is reaching down deeper into the ranks.

Maybe it's time for them to admit that creating the prize was a 
political move in the first place and it should now be retired, or cut 
back to a prize only when it is really warranted.

> And yet, if in a union, I am posed a similar question as the
> sweatshop worker. Do I dare go against the union and risk being a
> pariah, or do i simply follow the herd and fuck over the businessman
> whose hand feeds me? There is only asymetry if you presume the
> employee to be ignorant, or uneducated or plain outright stupid. If
> the exchange is totally voluntary, the owner will present a wage
> that the employee may or may not accept along with terms and
> conditions, which the employee is also free to accept or decline.

Most chip and computer engineers are not unionized (the union meaning, 
not the plasma meaning). This works well.

Some engineers have formed professional societies. These are _nominally_ 
to "ensure professional standards." But critics point to their role as a 
rate-limiting, rent-seeking group. Doctors and lawyers, most notably, 
use professional societies as unions.

> Granted, in the world of unskilled labor, this doesnt seem as evident,
> but that goes back around the circle on why the work is unskilled and
> why the worker is there. Life handed him a shittier set of choices than
> the guy whose hobby was network security and has more bargaining
> power at the negotiation table with an employer.

The blue-collar worker also has a fair amount of "bargaining power." He 
is paid less, usually, but his relative value to the employer is what he 
is paid. A machine tool worker may not have much power to "demand more 
money," but neither does an engineer, or even a security expert!

The traditional labor union threatens mass action, typically a strike or 
walkout or slowdown. The usual theory is that this protects them from 
retaliation because a plant would have to fire _all_ striking workers, 
with dire consequences for them.

This is false, as factories can and do move to other states, other 
nations.

(The U.S. was a low-wage haven compared to England, in textiles. It also 
"stole" the intellectual property of the mills in England. Ironically, 
the same southern states (Georgia, South Carolina, etc.) that complain 
so viciously about the Asian and Mexican factories were _themselves_ 
beneficiaries of the move of factories from New England mill towns to 
their states. Largely to escape unions and reduce labor costs. Irony 
squared and cubed.)



> I firmly disagree
> with the suppression of unions, but by that same token I firmly
> disagree that an employer should be mandated to keep an employee who
> is a part of a union. It is the employees choice to unioniye, it
> should sure as hell be the employers choice to say as Tim so
> galantly put it "Fuck Off!".

I put it even more strongly, of course.

>
--Tim May
"The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any 
member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to 
others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient 
warrant." --John Stuart Mill




From ericm at lne.com  Mon Oct 22 10:28:14 2001
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 10:28:14 -0700
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: ; from
  tcmay@got.net on Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 08:44:09AM -0700
References:  
Message-ID: <20011022102814.A4453@slack.lne.com>


On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 08:44:09AM -0700, Tim May wrote:
 
> "Sure, unions are good" is not at all obvious to me. Why do you claim 
> this?
> 
> Most labor unions are simply rent-seeking clubs designed to cement the 
> status quo. Teacher's unions in the U.S. are a prime example: once the 
> union got powerful enough, it fought for a tenure-type system which made 
> it nearly impossible to remove those who taught poorly and to reward 
> those who taught especially well.
> 
> I've never belonged to a labor union of any kind, and they are 
> essentially absent from the chip and computer industries.
> 
>  From what I have seen, labor unions are a collectivist evil.

Same here.

The union management quickly becomes yet another set of bosses.
You'd have to be an idiot to voluntarily request that you have
TWO sets of bosses instead of one.


Bert Hopwoods "Whatever Happened to the British Motorcycle Industry"
documents a great example of the idiocy of unions.  The British ruled
the motorcycle industry in the 50s and 60s, but all British bike makers
went bust by 1977.

While he attributes most of the blame to management (which he was part
of), the unions come in for their share, mostly for the stupid strikes
that killed off Triumph/BSA in the mid 70s...  "hey, sales are down
and there's a world-wide recession, so let's go on strike to preserve
our jobs!".  Idiots.


Eric




From tcmay at got.net  Mon Oct 22 10:34:37 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 10:34:37 -0700
Subject: And another one bites the dust, another one down, another 
  one down
In-Reply-To: <178AF14C-C69D-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <10C03712-C713-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Sunday, October 21, 2001, at 08:30 PM, Tim May wrote:

> On Sunday, October 21, 2001, at 06:02 PM, David Honig wrote:
>>
>> Once the person has enough symptoms to seek treatment,
>> I think they're toast.  We'll see.  Maybe all USPO
>> workers will be given 60 days of Cipro.  If they're
>> the only ones to survive, the species is fucked.
>>
>
> It looks like this Maryland case is a real Case #2. If he survives, 
> it'll mean the Sturgeon General was right to say we now can handle 
> anthrax. But I expect he's a goner.

Looks like the "toast" and "goner" comments are right on...as expected.

I've been watching a press conference of D.C. politicos, mayor and 
company, on CNN. Looks like several inhalational anthrax cases 
confirmed, and *two deaths* of postal workers over the weekend with 
"suspicious" symptoms and test results.

(Don't know if one of them is the postal worker already diagnosed with 
inhalational anthrax since last Friday...it's possible this is one of 
the people. Sounds like the two deaths were of others, though, with 
anthrax only being suspected post mortem.)

Expect more chaos, then.

And more police state measures.


--Tim May
"That the said Constitution shall never be construed to authorize 
Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press or the rights of 
conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States who are 
peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." --Samuel Adams




From stevet at sendon.net  Mon Oct 22 04:04:58 2001
From: stevet at sendon.net (Steve Thompson)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 11:04:58 +0000
Subject: fanaticism, left anarchists, and CACLing
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011020130355.03dac308@pop3.lvcm.com> <20011020134200.B18679@cluebot.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20011019162608.038b25a0@pop3.lvcm.com> <00e601c158e4$70b40bc0$01000001@PATRICK> <5.1.0.14.0.20011019162608.038b25a0@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20011021215710.01fe91d0@mail.well.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20011021221329.021c4910@pop.gmx.net>
Message-ID: <200110221113.LAA26004@divert.sendon.net>




I'll bite this one. 


Quoting Luthor Blisset (saeq at gmx.net):
[snip]
>          For once and for all: Laissez-faire capitalism does not imply the 
> existence of corporate entities! The left anarchists I know want to keep 
> the means of production and distribution privately (or cooperatively) 
> owned, and keep the free market of goods, services, and ideas... But they 

Then they probably aren't anarchists.

> want to drop the notion of state-sanctioned corporate entities with their 
> own rights, privileges, and liabilities distinct from those of their members.

Anarchy won't work unless _everybody_ cooperates in good faith.  And it ain't
gonna happen.  It is more likely that a state of actual anarchy would result
in a minor restructuring of the democratic pattern of two wolves and a sheep
deciding what to have for dinner.

[snip]
> [3] All the left anarchists I know think they own their shoes, as you own 
> yours. However, they question the utility of the corporate legal 
> construction, and many (most? all?) deem corporate property (like 
> intellectual property) a dangerous, shortsighted fiction whose time has 
> come and gone.

Ideally, intellectual property (or more properly, knowledge) would always be
in the public domain.  For that to be viable, something, perhaps a gift
economy, would have to replace currently competing systems.  And it ain't
gonna happen.  Too many people enjoy not only the simple material benefits of
capitalism (to name one), but more importantly, the power which it gives them
to manipulate their environment to suit their will; and which includes, of
course, people.

Patterns of domination and so forth are obviously far too deeply ingrained in
the human psyche to make viable any meaningful change towards flattening
somewhat bottom-heavy wealth and power hierarchies.


We now return to the ongoing coverage of the American Anthrax Attack.


Regards,

Steve

-- 
Oldthinkers unbellyfeel Ingsoc.




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Mon Oct 22 08:16:09 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 11:16:09 -0400
Subject: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)
Message-ID: 


> Jim Choate[SMTP:ravage at einstein.ssz.com] wrote
> 
> On Sat, 20 Oct 2001, Steve Furlong wrote:
> 
> > Jim, I'm going to have to call bullshit on that. A few minutes' checking
> > (google and the revised code pages of a handful of states) shows that
> > defacing a DL generally seems to be a violation, not even a misdemeanor.
> 
> You can go to jail for several years for defacing a license. In Texas it's
> illegal to photocopy it except for official or business purposes.
> 
'Except for official or business purposes' is a hole big enough to drive
a HAZMAT tanker through, privacy-wise. It means that any business
that want to can snarf the data, legally. I recently bought a car - every
dealer photocopied licenses before handing us a movable, disposable
asset worth several $10^4k to take away for a test drive.

I'd have been suprised if they hadn't.

All this does is provide the LEOs with yet another line in the laundry
list of violations they paste on accuseds, to up the time in jail if they
manage to get a conviction.

Peter Trei







From freematt at coil.com  Mon Oct 22 08:27:17 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 11:27:17 -0400
Subject: Fuck Nortel & Fuck China's Golden Shield
Message-ID: 


[Note from Matthew Gaylor:  I'm using the term "Fuck" not as a term 
of endearment, but rather as in "fuck them".]


From auto301094 at hushmail.com  Mon Oct 22 11:57:11 2001
From: auto301094 at hushmail.com (auto301094 at hushmail.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 11:57:11 -0700
Subject: Psychological violence of the antisocial/narcissistic/paraniod
  personality: the serial bully
Message-ID: <200110221857.f9MIvB209115@mailserver1.hushmail.com>

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From Karl.Peterson at hotwire.m0.net  Mon Oct 22 12:09:28 2001
From: Karl.Peterson at hotwire.m0.net (Hotwire)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 12:09:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Message from Hotwire CEO, Karl Peterson
Message-ID: <4605111291.1003777768383@m0.net>

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From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Mon Oct 22 12:14:29 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 12:14:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Additional Anthrax Deaths Suspected
In-Reply-To: <10C03712-C713-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net> from "Tim
  May" at Oct 22, 2001 10:34:37 AM
Message-ID: <200110221914.f9MJET101724@artifact.psychedelic.net>


Tim wrote:

> Looks like the "toast" and "goner" comments are right on...as expected.

> I've been watching a press conference of D.C. politicos, mayor and 
> company, on CNN. Looks like several inhalational anthrax cases 
> confirmed, and *two deaths* of postal workers over the weekend with 
> "suspicious" symptoms and test results.

> (Don't know if one of them is the postal worker already diagnosed with 
> inhalational anthrax since last Friday...it's possible this is one of 
> the people. Sounds like the two deaths were of others, though, with 
> anthrax only being suspected post mortem.)

Yes, this is very worrisome.  I've been waiting for the day when we have
less anthrax cases than the day before, and apparently we've not seen the
peak yet.

The guy in Florida is supposedly doing well, despite surgery to insert
various breathing tubes a while back.

Congress has now decided not to repopen for business on Tuesday.

These anthraxed buildings may be a writeoff.  I doubt people will
volunteer to go back into them, even after happy-fun-decontamination.

American Media is selling and relocating.

I wonder how many suspicious pulmonary deaths have flown under the radar
to date, because they weren't correctly diagnosed.

More bad news will probably follow in the weeks to come.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Mon Oct 22 04:21:52 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 12:21:52 +0100
Subject: Retribution not enough
References: <20011020134200.B18679@cluebot.com>
  <5.1.0.14.0.20011019162608.038b25a0@pop3.lvcm.com>
  <00e601c158e4$70b40bc0$01000001@PATRICK>
  <5.1.0.14.0.20011019162608.038b25a0@pop3.lvcm.com>
  <3.0.6.32.20011020144953.008189d0@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3BD40150.4BF0BC75@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


David Honig wrote:

> No one forces a farmer to the city to look for an industrial job.

In general, no. But it happens now and again.  Governments certainly did
in (say) the old Soviet Union (until they changed tactic and starting
forcing them out of the city again).  And in wartime almost everybody
tries it. Some bits of the British Empire used "hut taxes" which were
never intended to raise significant revenue  to force self-sufficient
farmers into paid employment. (Also of course they hit harder on African
families, used to living in small compounds of separate huts each
equivalent to a room in a European house)

There have been plenty of situations where are worker is not free to
choose employment or to leave employment. Everything from outright
slavery to  various tricks with company stores and debt bondage. 

And if someone comes along with an army, conquers the country and says
"we own the land now, work for us or starve" most people will "choose"
not to starve. And if they then bring in pass cards and closed borders
and internal passports. most people will be unable to leave.  That was
true until very recently in many places: the old Soviet Union, apartheid
South Africa, parts of colonial south-east Asia, and  for Indians at
least in some parts of Central America. Would you want to bet that it is
no longer true anywhere?

It's trivial that free trade is better for poor people (usual
disclaimer: "on the whole, other things being equal, in the medium term"
- it is easy to invent a situation  in which some people, in some
circumstances, will be worse off permanently, or in which almost
everybody is worse of for a while. There are going to be losers as well
as winners).

But it is not trivial to assume that international fee trade, or free
trade between corporations, is always the same as freedom for
individuals. There can be "free" trade between slave-holding
corporations, like an old Soviet industrial enterprise trading with the
West. The bosses might be free, the slaves wouldn't.

Where local arrangements confiscate land and property and pass them into
the hands of states, or organised criminals, or corporations, or
individuals; then someone choosing to work rather than starve is not,
exactly, free. When the state makes the laws, and the state is
controlled by those who are already powerful, then the laws may be
written to suit the confiscators, and confiscation may be easily
disguised by legality. That can be as true for a plantation in a
"capitalist" country as 
for a collective farm in a "communist" one. 

Ken




From ericm at lne.com  Mon Oct 22 12:24:44 2001
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 12:24:44 -0700
Subject: Retribution Time
In-Reply-To: ;
  from sandfort@mindspring.com on Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 09:15:37AM -0700
References: <004801c15978$55678600$03d36b3f@pacer.com>
  
Message-ID: <20011022122444.B5138@slack.lne.com>


On Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 09:15:37AM -0700, Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> Hear, hear.
> 
> This sort of crap is the inevitable outcome of an unmoderated list.  All the
> loons come out to play because there are no real negative consequences for
> being a loon.  And filtering does not do anything besides bury one's head in
> the sand.

Then filter them out and send them a forged bounce message at the same time.
That way you let them know that you think that they're an idiot
yet you don't have to read their mail to do so.

I used to do that before I decided that it was ruder than
I wanted to be.  Procmail will do it.


> I have an solution... (no, it's not AP).  :'D
> 
> I promise, when I get my new business going and have the time/money to
> devote to it, I will offer Cypherpunks a real solution.  (Anybody who has
> time/money and wants to discuss it now, please contact me offline.)

A real solution allows each person to decide for themselves
what information they wish to consume.  That doesn't mean
that the collective list membership determines what is "interesting", or
that an individual or group of individuals determines it for
the group.  Only individuals can determine that for themselves.

For example, some subscribers may be doing a study on net.loons
(or might simply find them interesting) and be using the list to
collect their, uh, works.  If all other list members find net.loons
to be  waste of time and wish that their posts were dropped, does
that make our net.loon fan's preferences invalid?

What's needed is tools to make it easier for individuals to find
the information they want and skip the rest.



> We now return you to the freak show, already in progress.

I don't see all that much of a freak show.
Oh yea, I'm just burying my head in the sand by filtering them out..



Eric




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Mon Oct 22 04:34:24 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 12:34:24 +0100
Subject: ENVELOPE STUFFING JOB
References:  <3BD34F46.160DD984@acmenet.net>
Message-ID: <3BD40440.D07F34BA@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Steve Furlong wrote:
 
> Powder color is the thing that's been driving me up a wall the past few
> days. People are panicking about the wrong dang thing.

I'm not at all sure that a large collection of anthrax spores would look
like a powder. These things are far too small to see individually. A
mass of them would look like a paste. Any visible granularity would
either be because they had agglutinated into larger particles in some
way, or because they had been mixed with a powder as some sort of
vector.  
 
> I'm tempted to scatter baker's yeast in a public place and powdered
> sugar nearby, and observe which causes people to panic. All that's left
> is figuring out how to do this enough times for meaningful results,
> without getting arrested...

New emergency law in UK as of this week. Up to 7 years in jail for
biowarfare hoaxes.

In a world of cheap DNA sequencing, these well-known bacteria bear their
ancestry with them like an audit trail. They are *American* anthrax. 
Why doesn't the FBI let some of those Arabs go without torturing them,
and pick up some of the workers from their own biowar labs?

Ken Brown




From grocha at neutraldomain.org  Mon Oct 22 12:36:47 2001
From: grocha at neutraldomain.org (Gabriel Rocha)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 12:36:47 -0700
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: <0011DFA8-C712-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>; from
  tcmay@got.net on Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 10:27:00AM -0700
References: <20011022100930.H40293@neutraldomain.org>
  <0011DFA8-C712-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <20011022123647.R40293@neutraldomain.org>


		On Mon, Oct 22, at 10:27AM, Tim May wrote:
| This is one of the problems with the whole "Economics" prize. There's 
| not even a prize in _mathematics_, fer chrissake, so why one in 
| _economics_? Alfred Nobel certainly did not endow an economics prize. 
| (The econ prize gets its money from some other source.)
| 
| The Econ prize was only established in the 70s, and now the prize 
| committee is reaching down deeper into the ranks.
| 
| Maybe it's time for them to admit that creating the prize was a 
| political move in the first place and it should now be retired, or cut 
| back to a prize only when it is really warranted.

The time for that is past...look at the priye winners this year to
see a list of people, none of which did any work which was entirely
original. (disclaimer, i am talking about econ and sciences as i
havent seen anything on the other people.)
 
| Most chip and computer engineers are not unionized (the union meaning, 
| not the plasma meaning). This works well.
| 
| Some engineers have formed professional societies. These are _nominally_ 
| to "ensure professional standards." But critics point to their role as a 
| rate-limiting, rent-seeking group. Doctors and lawyers, most notably, 
| use professional societies as unions.

If the "society" is in fact for the purpose of creating a common
market agreed upon standard, then it is a good thing, if it imposes
standards on third parties who are not willing to comply to those
standards, either organiyation is a Bad Thing(tm).

| The blue-collar worker also has a fair amount of "bargaining power." He 
| is paid less, usually, but his relative value to the employer is what he 
| is paid. A machine tool worker may not have much power to "demand more 
| money," but neither does an engineer, or even a security expert!

Too bad the blue-collar workforce doesnt figure this out for
themselves, rather than bitching they are poorly treated.

| The traditional labor union threatens mass action, typically a strike or 
| walkout or slowdown. The usual theory is that this protects them from 
| retaliation because a plant would have to fire _all_ striking workers, 
| with dire consequences for them.
| 
| This is false, as factories can and do move to other states, other 
| nations.

As well it should. Money goes where it is well treated. If the
striking workers would prefer to do with no paycheck and having the
right to go on strike, that is their choice. I have a problem when
laws mandate that the business not do this or be fined. That is
fucked up in my mind. Equal rights for all, not just for the
workers.

| (The U.S. was a low-wage haven compared to England, in textiles. It also 
| "stole" the intellectual property of the mills in England. Ironically, 
| the same southern states (Georgia, South Carolina, etc.) that complain 
| so viciously about the Asian and Mexican factories were _themselves_ 
| beneficiaries of the move of factories from New England mill towns to 
| their states. Largely to escape unions and reduce labor costs. Irony 
| squared and cubed.)

The US was also founded on the same principles which the government
is now desperately trying to destroy. I dont foresee the southern
states realiying that hypocrisy is their practice.

--Gabe

-- 
Churchill, Winston Leonard Spencer --On the eve of Britain's entry
into World War II:
	"If you will not fight for right when you can easily win 
without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be 
sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will 
have to fight with all odds against you and only a precarious 
chance of survival. There may be even a worse fate. You may have 
to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to 
perish than to live as slaves.




From schear at lvcm.com  Mon Oct 22 13:17:06 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:17:06 -0700
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: <3BD46A4B.AB07AD02@acmenet.net>
References: 
  <3BD4644D.95C0AF5D@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011022122414.03a51ab8@pop3.lvcm.com>


At 02:49 PM 10/22/2001 -0400, Steve Furlong wrote:
>Harmon Seaver wrote:
>
> >        Of course you're ignoring the fact that sometimes the reason 
> that they
> > are "starving on their own retched little plots of land." is because of 
> NAFTA
> > and huge multinational corporations importing so much US factory farmed 
> corn
> > and other ag products into that country that they can't compete. We've been
> > thru this discussion before.
> >       All else being equal, there is no logical reason in the world why 
> they
> > should be "starving on their own retched little plots of land." Peasant 
> farmers
> > have been making an adequate living on "their own retched little plots of
> > land." for at least since before any recorded history, and, for that 
> matter,
> > can still do so.
> >       The average size farm in the world is only 7 acres, and if you 
> talk to
> > most of those farmers, they would much rather live and work on their little
> > subsistence farms than move into a city and work in a factory.
>...
>
>Then let them. A self-sufficient subsistence farmer won't be bothered by
>the trade his neighbors are carrying out. [1] His farm can be a
>neolithic bubble as the world progresses.
>
>If he _isn't_ self-sufficient, then he does care about the trade going
>on around him. That's been the case forever, and new trade always
>disrupts someone who was making his living with the way things were.
>
>And if he wants to make use of metal tools, then he'll have to exchange
>as best he can for them. But, again, he's not self-sufficient, unless he
>can dig and forge his own metals. Complaining that the world isn't the
>way it was for Grandpa shouldn't get a sympathetic ear from anyone who
>uses metals, plastics, or medicine, or who eats fresh produce out of
>season.

One of the great long term hopes for nanotechnology is the "cornucopia" or 
StarTrek replicator, a device which can "manufacture" from raw materials 
and information a broad variety of consumables and hard goods.  If it ever 
does come about and is not something centrally controlled and monitored a 
'la Stephenson's Diamond Age, it could usher in an age of individual 
sovereignty the likes of which the world as not known since its transition 
from hunter gatherer to agriculture.  It might also spell the end of economy.

steve




From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Mon Oct 22 11:25:00 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:25:00 -0500
Subject: Retribution not enough
References: 
Message-ID: <3BD4644D.95C0AF5D@cybershamanix.com>


Sandy Sandfort wrote:

>  Yeah, the "sweatshop"
> workers' choices are lousy, but they have, in fact, made their choice to
> improve their lives by working in the "sweatshops" as opposed to starving on
> their own retched little plots of land.  Good for them.

       Of course you're ignoring the fact that sometimes the reason that they
are "starving on their own retched little plots of land." is because of NAFTA
and huge multinational corporations importing so much US factory farmed corn
and other ag products into that country that they can't compete. We've been
thru this discussion before.
      All else being equal, there is no logical reason in the world why they
should be "starving on their own retched little plots of land." Peasant farmers
have been making an adequate living on "their own retched little plots of
land." for at least since before any recorded history, and, for that matter,
can still do so.
      The average size farm in the world is only 7 acres, and if you talk to
most of those farmers, they would much rather live and work on their little
subsistence farms than move into a city and work in a factory. I myself lived
for many years on a very small farm and most definitely, as soon as humanly
possible, am going back to doing just that. Moving from your own piece of land
in the country being you own boss to living in a hovel in the city working as a
wageslave in a sweatshop for peanuts is not an improvement by any stretch of
the imagination.
      Anyone who spends any time at all researching the conditions of peasant
farmers in the 3rd world who leave their land and go to work in sweatshops
would never come to the conclusion that they chose to do so.


--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver at cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html





From staff at wirelessdeveloper.com  Mon Oct 22 10:40:43 2001
From: staff at wirelessdeveloper.com (The WirelessDeveloper Team)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:40:43 -0400
Subject: Your WirelessDeveloper Password
Message-ID: <3BD42F84000008E2@mail.wirelessdeveloper.com> (added by mail.wirelessdeveloper.com)


This email has been sent automatically by The WirelessDeveloper System

Username: cypherpunks at toad.com
Password: W5m5oiWiy5fG

Go to http://www.wirelessdeveloper.com/login.asp?email=cypherpunks at toad.com and enter your username and password to log on to the WirelessDeveloper site.

Thank You!
The WirelessDeveloper Team




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From: evs123 at email.ru (EVS)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:49:45 +0300
Subject:   / VISA SERVICES
Message-ID: <20011022095116.96E982348A@hueymiccailhuitl.mtu.ru>



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From honig at sprynet.com  Mon Oct 22 14:04:17 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 14:04:17 -0700
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: <3BD4644D.95C0AF5D@cybershamanix.com>
References: 
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011022140417.00830320@pop.sprynet.com>


At 01:25 PM 10/22/01 -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>       Of course you're ignoring the fact that sometimes the reason that they
>are "starving on their own retched little plots of land." is because of NAFTA
>and huge multinational corporations importing so much US factory farmed corn
>and other ag products into that country that they can't compete. 

Obviously if their corn is too expensive, they need to grow something
else.  Or find some other edge --you know, buy our organic CPUs handcrafted
by vegetarian Santa Clara monks using Daisy CAD.

You have no "right" to make a living growing/making something you can't sell.
Paraphrasing Thoreau: Man said "I exist".  The universe said, "So?"


Of course, if you closed their market to others, you'd just raise the price
for the corn-eaters.


We've been
>thru this discussion before.

Indeed.

>      All else being equal, there is no logical reason in the world why they
>should be "starving on their own retched little plots of land." 

Overpopulation.  Malthus.  [Don't even start, Choate]  Starving is the
natural state.

(All this assumes no immoral coercion by native governments or others.)


----
Humans are the only species who don't let their learning interfere with
their behavior --GS


 Actually, to me, anyway, "Capitalism" is a Marxist word meaning
"economics". -RAH



 






  







From honig at sprynet.com  Mon Oct 22 14:06:08 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 14:06:08 -0700
Subject: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <20011022200033.25531.qmail@sidereal.kz>
References: 
  
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011022140608.00830460@pop.sprynet.com>


At 08:00 PM 10/22/01 -0000, Dr. Evil wrote:
>> It's often the fucking Jews--Feinstein, Feingold, Lieberman, 
>> Ellison--who slavishly imitate the Nazis. How ironic to see Larry 
>> Ellison pushing the "Papers, please, macht schnell!" Orwellian nightmare.
>
>That is a good observation, and something which I'll never
>understand.  How can they want to recreate the conditions that lead to
>their families being killed just a couple of generations ago?  How
>could a Jew possibly support gun control?

Trust the State more than the People.  

----
People who are willing to rely on the government to keep them safe are
pretty much standing on Darwin's mat, pounding on the door, screaming,
"Take me, take me!"--Cael in A.S.R. 

"Love work, hate domination, and do not let your name come to the attention
of the ruling powers." -Talmud/Sayings of the Fathers

Never lose your life preserver -JPFO.ORG




From honig at sprynet.com  Mon Oct 22 14:09:18 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 14:09:18 -0700
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011022140918.0082ad80@pop.sprynet.com>


At 11:09 PM 10/22/01 +0300, Sampo Syreeni wrote:
>On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Tim May wrote:
>
>>"Sure, unions are good" is not at all obvious to me. Why do you claim
>>this?
>
>When they're not given special privileges, they are a useful tool for
>market awareness and employee side organization. 

Sure.  But unions work to make membership *compulsory*.  They have
other legal privledges.

....
UC grad students (TAs) are Teamsters, members of AFL-CIO.  Seriously.
Obligatorily.  No choice.  




From gbroiles at well.com  Mon Oct 22 14:15:42 2001
From: gbroiles at well.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 14:15:42 -0700
Subject: Prescreening for hotel customers
In-Reply-To: <00eb01c15b33$5124a3e0$98d72509@raleigh.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011022141137.03ce33b0@bivens.parrhesia.com>


At 03:54 PM 10/22/2001 -0400, Peter Capelli wrote:

>I'm assuming that it's only voluntary to the airlines, and not the
>passengers ...
>
>http://www.computerworld.com/storyba/0,4125,NAV47_STO64966,00.html

.. and a companion article says that some hotel chains are prepared to do 
pre-screening for their customers, too, and have responded to FBI requests 
for information after 9/11. In particular, Hilton Hotels, which also owns 
the Hampton Inn, Doubletree, and Embassy Suites chains, as well as the 
Waldorf-Astoria in NY and Palmer House in Chicago, says that they've 
already got the technology in place and that it would be easy for them to 
incorporate the necessary configuration changes. The CIO of Hilton is says 
the only obstacle would be "privacy-related issues", which are likely to be 
no issue at all if customers don't know it's happening or don't get an 
opportunity to object.

See 
 
for more.

--
Greg Broiles
gbroiles at well.com
"We have found and closed the thing you watch us with." -- New Delhi street kids




From eugene.leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Mon Oct 22 05:30:15 2001
From: eugene.leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 14:30:15 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: [cpunx-news] [ISN] Nortel helps build 'Great Firewall of China' (fwd)
Message-ID: 

-- Eugen* Leitl ; from
  emc@artifact.psychedelic.net on Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 12:14:29PM -0700
References: <10C03712-C713-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>
  <200110221914.f9MJET101724@artifact.psychedelic.net>
Message-ID: <20011022143658.B5970@navel.introspect>


on Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 12:14:29PM -0700, Eric Cordian
(emc at artifact.psychedelic.net) wrote:
> Tim wrote:
>
> > Looks like the "toast" and "goner" comments are right on...as expected.
>
> > I've been watching a press conference of D.C. politicos, mayor and
> > company, on CNN. Looks like several inhalational anthrax cases
> > confirmed, and *two deaths* of postal workers over the weekend with
> > "suspicious" symptoms and test results.
>
> > (Don't know if one of them is the postal worker already diagnosed with
> > inhalational anthrax since last Friday...it's possible this is one of
> > the people. Sounds like the two deaths were of others, though, with
> > anthrax only being suspected post mortem.)
>
> Yes, this is very worrisome.  I've been waiting for the day when we
> have less anthrax cases than the day before, and apparently we've not
> seen the peak yet.

    antrax: n. AKA mailsorter's disease

    (Future dictionary entry)

There is a vaccine for anthrax.  It's not generally distributed, though
military and vetinary personnel may receive it.  The CDC's fact sheet
states that it requires six doses (three at two week intervals, then six
months), protects against cutaneous and inhalation anthrax, and
requires an annual booster.  There are some risks of the vaccine, though
exposure risks are higher, the worst is a sever allergic reaction,
observed in less than 1 in 100,000 doses.

Might it make sense to vaccinate mailroom personnel?  Like high-end
routers on the 'Net, this is where the current delivery mechanism is
bottlenecked.

Peace.

--
Karsten M. Self        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?             Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Mon Oct 22 11:49:47 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 14:49:47 -0400
Subject: Retribution not enough
References:  <3BD4644D.95C0AF5D@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <3BD46A4B.AB07AD02@acmenet.net>


Harmon Seaver wrote:

>        Of course you're ignoring the fact that sometimes the reason that they
> are "starving on their own retched little plots of land." is because of NAFTA
> and huge multinational corporations importing so much US factory farmed corn
> and other ag products into that country that they can't compete. We've been
> thru this discussion before.
>       All else being equal, there is no logical reason in the world why they
> should be "starving on their own retched little plots of land." Peasant farmers
> have been making an adequate living on "their own retched little plots of
> land." for at least since before any recorded history, and, for that matter,
> can still do so.
>       The average size farm in the world is only 7 acres, and if you talk to
> most of those farmers, they would much rather live and work on their little
> subsistence farms than move into a city and work in a factory.
...

Then let them. A self-sufficient subsistence farmer won't be bothered by
the trade his neighbors are carrying out. [1] His farm can be a
neolithic bubble as the world progresses.

If he _isn't_ self-sufficient, then he does care about the trade going
on around him. That's been the case forever, and new trade always
disrupts someone who was making his living with the way things were.

And if he wants to make use of metal tools, then he'll have to exchange
as best he can for them. But, again, he's not self-sufficient, unless he
can dig and forge his own metals. Complaining that the world isn't the
way it was for Grandpa shouldn't get a sympathetic ear from anyone who
uses metals, plastics, or medicine, or who eats fresh produce out of
season.


[1] Assuming they don't pollute him out of raising his crops or
livestock, tax or regulate his farm out of existence.

-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Mon Oct 22 14:52:52 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 14:52:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Additional Anthrax Deaths Suspected
In-Reply-To: <20011022143658.B5970@navel.introspect> from "Karsten M.
  Self" at Oct 22, 2001 02:36:58 PM
Message-ID: <200110222152.f9MLqqP01988@artifact.psychedelic.net>


Karsten writes:

> There is a vaccine for anthrax.  It's not generally distributed, though
> military and vetinary personnel may receive it. 

The vaccine has not been proven safe and effective, nor released for use
in the general population.  The military has to take it because they are
ordered to.

I believe it was mentioned that the anthrax currently being mailed is the
"Ames" strain, first discovered in Ames, Iowa, and of interest to
researchers because the vaccine is spectacularly ineffective against it.

It does, however, respond to antibiotics, providing you are diagnosed
before it is too late.

Diseases caused by bacilli are generally nasty.  Leprosy and TB being the
two other well-known examples.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Mon Oct 22 15:00:11 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 15:00:11 -0700
Subject: Additional Anthrax Deaths Suspected
In-Reply-To: <20011022143658.B5970@navel.introspect>; from
  kmself@ix.netcom.com on Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 02:36:58PM -0700
References: <10C03712-C713-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>
  <200110221914.f9MJET101724@artifact.psychedelic.net>
  <20011022143658.B5970@navel.introspect>
Message-ID: <20011022150011.A22605@navel.introspect>


on Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 02:36:58PM -0700, Karsten M. Self
(kmself at ix.netcom.com) wrote:

> The CDC's fact sheet

Memo to self:  include URLs.

    http://www.cdc.gov/nip/publications/VIS/vis-anthrax.pdf

Peace.

--
Karsten M. Self        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?             Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]




From decoy at iki.fi  Mon Oct 22 05:01:47 2001
From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 15:01:47 +0300 (EEST)
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Sat, 20 Oct 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

>> * "Low wage" compared to _what_?
>
>What it takes to have reasonable living standards and sufficient resources
>to help ones children do better than themselves.

Reasonable? Well, compared to dying of malnutrition, anything is
"reasonable". After that, it's mostly a matter of letting economic growth
do its deed.

>Because if the producers allow this behaviour they put themselves out of
>business.

OTOH, dismal civil rights conditions make a country a hostile, high risk
environment to investment capital. That gives a reasonable incentive to
the government/dictator to do something about those rights violations. A
similar argument holds for credit ratings and the subsequent cost of
foreign loaning.

>If the market were open, it isn't. The reality is that the market is
>controlled in such a way as to keep the status quo. This ensures the
>political, social, and economics supremacy of a small minority at the
>expense of the many.

And guess what? Part of globalization is getting the fundamental human
rights and civil liberties infrastructure in place in these countries.

>This bozo can't tell the difference between a 'socialism' (which is what
>he's describing) and a 'dictatorship'. Sounds more like he's begging the
>question.

Sure, they're separate. That by no means implies that socialism is stable
or that it could be kept from degenerating into a dictatorship. Cf. Hayek.

Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - mailto:decoy at iki.fi, tel:+358-50-5756111
student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front
openpgp: 050985C2/025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2




From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Mon Oct 22 13:02:19 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 15:02:19 -0500
Subject: Farm Out! (was Re: Retribution not enough)
References: 
	  <3BD4644D.95C0AF5D@cybershamanix.com> <3BD46A4B.AB07AD02@acmenet.net>
Message-ID: <3BD47B14.C083DE15@cybershamanix.com>


Steve Furlong wrote:

> Then let them. A self-sufficient subsistence farmer won't be bothered by
> the trade his neighbors are carrying out. [1] His farm can be a
> neolithic bubble as the world progresses.

      What? You're talking nonsense here. Of course they make part of their living
selling crops --- what's all the bs about "forging his own metals" etc. Total straw
man arguement. The point was that they aren't "starving" for one thing, and, if it
were up to them, they'd stay put.
      Look, I'll try to explain it in terms that perhaps even a city boy like you
can understand. You don't have to go to the 3rd world, just go talk to small
american family farmers. There are thousands of them out there who simply don't care
that they aren't making lots of money -- the important thing is that they can keep
their farms and do their own thing. What's wrong with that?
      You know what destroyed the small family farm in this country? Education -- ag
schools and the county extension agent. Funded, for the most part, by large chemical
companies. The old story of the country bumpkin getting conned by the city-slicker
salesman. Kids went off to ag school, came home and told Dad to do things the
"modern" way, factory farming with modern chemicals -- sure, go into debt, buy all
those new tractors and fancy equipment and we'll be rich.
      And then, of course, that little trick the Fed Reserve and the banks pulled
back in the 70's with manipulating the economy so that rural land prices went thru
the roof, farmers who had been mortgage free for generations got duped into
borrowing money on their land to buy that fancy new equipment that the ag schools
and extension agents told them they needed, then bingo -- the Fed played some more
tricks, land values dropped back down, and a whole lot of farmers lost their land.
       Is that what you call free-market economics? I call it fascism -- state and
industry working in concert to whipsaw the masses and get more control over peoples
lives. People who were very free and independant are suddenly wage slaves in the
city because they listened to the "experts" from industry and government. And got
duped.
      I know one heck of a lot of people who much prefer living in rural "poverty"
to living in a city making big bucks. Although my wife and I have been making a
whole lot more money in recent years than we ever thought we would, and live in a
big fancy house in the city, we consider it a serious mistake. Money isn't
everything. We were one heck of a lot happier when we earned about $4000.00 a year.
We will soon rectify that. Why make a bunch money and feed the fascist machine?
     One of my favorite cartoons was one of Snuffy Smith and his wife --- she says
"Pa, the world is passing us by." Snuffy replies, "It sure better!"
Damn straight!

"Tune in, turn on, and drop out."  Now that's real free market economics.

>
>
> If he _isn't_ self-sufficient, then he does care about the trade going
> on around him. That's been the case forever, and new trade always
> disrupts someone who was making his living with the way things were.
>
> And if he wants to make use of metal tools, then he'll have to exchange
> as best he can for them. But, again, he's not self-sufficient, unless he
> can dig and forge his own metals. Complaining that the world isn't the
> way it was for Grandpa shouldn't get a sympathetic ear from anyone who
> uses metals, plastics, or medicine, or who eats fresh produce out of
> season.
>
> [1] Assuming they don't pollute him out of raising his crops or
> livestock, tax or regulate his farm out of existence.
>
> --
> Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
>   617-670-3793
>
> "Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
> while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver at cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html





From sandfort at mindspring.com  Mon Oct 22 15:06:24 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 15:06:24 -0700
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: <3BD4644D.95C0AF5D@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: 


Harmon Seaver wrote:

> Of course you're ignoring the fact that
> sometimes the reason that they are
> "starving on their own retched little
> plots of land." is because of NAFTA and
> huge multinational corporations importing
> so much US factory farmed corn and other
> ag products into that country that they
> can't compete.

Ooo, there's a crime.  :'D

> Peasant farmers have been making an
> adequate living on "their own retched
> little plots of land." for at least
> since before any recorded history, and,
> for that matter, can still do so.

No, actually history records a succession of starvations.  (Remember that
part about Moses interpreting pharaohs dream about 6 fat and 1 skinny kine?)
Only modern "factory farms" seem immune that this cycle.

Also, your argument makes no economic sense.  Against whom are these
peasants competing?  Surely they can eat what they grow no matter how
cheaply the "rapacious" factory farmers price their wares.


 S a n d y




From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Mon Oct 22 13:26:58 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 15:26:58 -0500
Subject: DOT proposes 'voluntary' prescreening of passengers
References: <00eb01c15b33$5124a3e0$98d72509@raleigh.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <3BD480D8.F218D7BC@cybershamanix.com>


     Interesting that they included mention of SouthWest airline in this
-- since SouthWest uses ObjectStore ODBMS, a pretty modern database.  As
does at least one other airline, IIRCC.
     I wonder if this is simply about the fedzis attempting to push them
all into using Oracle?
Which would be a real neat mess to watch.

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver at cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html




From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Mon Oct 22 13:38:41 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 15:38:41 -0500
Subject: Farm Out! (was Re: Retribution not enough)
References: 
  <3BD4644D.95C0AF5D@cybershamanix.com> <3BD46A4B.AB07AD02@acmenet.net>
  <3BD47B14.C083DE15@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <3BD48396.7327D406@cybershamanix.com>


     Hmm, now that is bizarre. Anybody have any idea why Netscape does
that sometimes? And not others? It looks fine when I hit the send button
-- then gets trashed. I've got line space set at 72, it's supposed to go
text only, no html, but it's got the same trashed formatting in the copy
that goes to Sent. And it seems to be only the Mac version of NS that
does this, not the linux version.
   If it did it all the time it would be understandable.

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver at cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html




From pcapelli at nsec.net  Mon Oct 22 12:54:09 2001
From: pcapelli at nsec.net (Peter Capelli)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 15:54:09 -0400
Subject: DOT proposes 'voluntary' prescreening of passengers
Message-ID: <00eb01c15b33$5124a3e0$98d72509@raleigh.ibm.com>


I'm assuming that it's only voluntary to the airlines, and not the
passengers ...

http://www.computerworld.com/storyba/0,4125,NAV47_STO64966,00.html

Pete Capelli    pcapelli at nsec.net
http://www.capelli.org  PGP Key ID:0x829263B6
"Those who would give up essential liberty for temporary safety deserve
neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin, 1759




From decoy at iki.fi  Mon Oct 22 06:03:42 2001
From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 16:03:42 +0300 (EEST)
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: <20011022065847.1E44C259C3@suburbia.net>
Message-ID: 


On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Julian Assange wrote:

>This years Nobel for Economics won by George A. Akerlof, A.  Michael
>Spence and Joseph E. Stiglitz "for their analysis of markets with
>assymetric information" is typical.

With "prior art" in the Austrian economic literature, which I hear is
considerably more interesting.

>You don't need a Nobel to realise that the relationship between a large
>employer and employee is brutally assymetric. One entity knows far more
>about the rules of the negotiation than the other.

The term "asymmetric information" refers to a specific situation where you
e.g. do not know a whole lot about what you're buying. Small people
applying for jobs in big companies does not really fit the bill -- you'd
have to be pretty darn stupid to sign a long-term contract for a dayjob
you know nothing about.

Yes, there is a legal quagmire around employer-employee relations. No,
asymmetric information hasn't got a whole lot to do with it.

>To counter this sort of assymetry. Employees naturally start trying to
>collectivise to increase their information processing and bargaining
>power. That's right. UNIONS Declan. Those devious entities that first
>world companies and governments have had a hand in suppressing all over
>the third world by curtailing freedom of association, speech and other
>basic political rights we take for granted.

Sure, unions are good and using coercion to stop them from coming into
being is bad. But that only applies as long as unions are granted no legal
status apart from other voluntary organizations, and participating in a
strike is taken as what it is, a refusal to work. Likely a breach of an
enforceable contract, too. Any "workers' rights" beyond that are something
you'll have a *really hard time* justifying. Asymmetry does not help,
either.

Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - mailto:decoy at iki.fi, tel:+358-50-5756111
student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front
openpgp: 050985C2/025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2




From info at hanoijane.net  Mon Oct 22 15:04:17 2001
From: info at hanoijane.net (info at hanoijane.net)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 16:04:17 -0600
Subject: "Aid and Comfort": Jane Fonda in North Vietnam
Message-ID: <200110222209.f9MM96M13226@taka.swcp.com>


PRE-PUBLICATION NOTICE
"Aid and Comfort": Jane Fonda in North Vietnam

McFarland & Co. is now accepting pre-publication orders for "Aid and 
Comfort": Jane Fonda in North Vietnam.  Please visit www.hanoijane.net to 
view the book's cover, a flyer containing information about the book, a 
pre-publication order form, and ordering information.  You will also find 
at www.hanoijane.net a link allowing on-line purchase of "Aid and Comfort": 
Jane Fonda in North Vietnam.

I encourage those of you who want this book to succeed to forward this 
notice to your email lists, and to ask those recipients to forward it to 
others, and so on down the line.  Also, feel free to print, copy, and 
distribute the flyer/order form, and ask libraries to purchase "Aid and 
Comfort."

I cannot stress enough the importance of pre-publication orders.  For one 
thing, they will affect the quantity of the book's first printing.  For 
another, pre-publication orders may influence the publisher's promotional 
and related efforts on behalf of the book.  Thus, it will be very helpful 
if those of you who intend to purchase "Aid and Comfort": Jane Fonda in 
North Vietnam order it now, and encourage others to do so.

Thanks,

HANK AND ERIKA HOLZER




From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Mon Oct 22 16:16:38 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 16:16:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Conman, quantum entaglement and no cat
In-Reply-To:  from
  "Anonymous" at Oct 22, 2001 11:00:53 PM
Message-ID: <200110222316.f9MNGdb02107@artifact.psychedelic.net>


Anonymous forwarded:

> "It wasn't a trick," Copperfield told Bild am Sonntag newspaper after
> the performance on the popular Wanna Bet? show on ZDF television. "It
> was more an experiment and mental exercise. We only use about 10 per
> cent of our brain capacity."

> Copperfield said he is not tempted to play the lottery himself because
> he would not be able to "see" the numbers.

How gullible can people be?  The only magical art Copperfield has mastered
is the building of overengineered stage props.

Randi would blow this away in 10 seconds.  Better they had buried
Copperfield's box in a Faraday Cage under 10 feet of wet cement, and had
the armed guards watch that.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From roy at scytale.com  Mon Oct 22 14:27:42 2001
From: roy at scytale.com (Roy M. Silvernail)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 16:27:42 -0500
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011022122414.03a51ab8@pop3.lvcm.com>
References: <3BD46A4B.AB07AD02@acmenet.net>
Message-ID: <3BD448FE.1739.102994A6@localhost>


On 22 Oct 2001, at 13:17, Steve Schear wrote:

> One of the great long term hopes for nanotechnology is the
> "cornucopia" or StarTrek replicator, a device which can "manufacture"
> from raw materials and information a broad variety of consumables and
> hard goods.  If it ever does come about and is not something centrally
> controlled and monitored a 'la Stephenson's Diamond Age, it could
> usher in an age of individual sovereignty the likes of which the world
> as not known since its transition from hunter gatherer to agriculture.
>  It might also spell the end of economy.

I'm reminded of George O. Smith's "Venus Equilateral" stories, in 
which invention of the replicator did end the economy, until a 
substance was discovered ("Identium") that could not be replicated. 
 It seems that markets appear whenever there is something of 
perceived value to trade.
--
Roy M. Silvernail
Proprietor, scytale.com
roy at scytale.com




From xeni at xeni.net  Mon Oct 22 16:31:02 2001
From: xeni at xeni.net (Xeni Jardin)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 16:31:02 -0700
Subject: Disney's SSSCA psy-ops: "EZ Jackster"
Message-ID: 


Forwarding a post from the pho digital music list (end of this message). A
Newsforge item that also appeared about this today reads:

"--Disney Channel cartoon portrays music downloads as evil
The Disney Channel cartoon series The Proud Family
(http://disney.go.com/disneychannel/zoogdisney/shows/proudfamily/index_main.html
)
aired an episode on Oct. 5 entitled EZ Jackster. In the storyline, EZ
Jackster is a Napster-like site, and the show's little heroines
get addicted to the service and play a part in the downfall of the music
industry. Disney is one of the backers of the SSSCA proposed legislation
that is scheduled for a hearing before Congress Oct. 25.

References: 
 
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011022164613.0082c960@pop.sprynet.com>


At 08:36 PM 10/22/01 -0000, Dr. Evil wrote:
> Eugene wrote: 
>> Thanks for wetting my keyboard with beer via nasal passage.
>
>Beer is precious.  Don't waste it on your keyboard.

Maybe he was doing a nasal lavage to keep spores at bay.





 






  







From tbr at synthesia.cz  Mon Oct 22 16:52:17 2001
From: tbr at synthesia.cz (Tabla bin Rasa)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 16:52:17 -0700
Subject: FBI Travel Services -One stop shopping for all your domestic
  travel  needs
Message-ID: <3BD4B131.F572B384@synthesia.cz>


Hey, the FBI should open a travel agency, to go with the 'housecleaning'
fronts
they run.

Tomlinson says the Security Dudes in the better hotels are already on
TLA payroll.



At 02:15 PM 10/22/01 -0700, Greg Broiles wrote:
>.. and a companion article says that some hotel chains are prepared to
do
>pre-screening for their customers, too, and have responded to FBI
requests
>for information after 9/11. In particular, Hilton Hotels, which also
owns
>the Hampton Inn, Doubletree, and Embassy Suites chains, as well as the
>Waldorf-Astoria in NY and Palmer House in Chicago, says that they've
>already got the technology in place and that it would be easy for them
to
>incorporate the necessary configuration changes. The CIO of Hilton is
says
>the only obstacle would be "privacy-related issues", which are likely
to be
>no issue at all if customers don't know it's happening or don't get an
>opportunity to object.




From honig at sprynet.com  Mon Oct 22 16:55:20 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 16:55:20 -0700
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3.0.6.32.20011022140918.0082ad80@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011022165520.00830100@pop.sprynet.com>


At 12:21 AM 10/23/01 +0300, Sampo Syreeni wrote:
>On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, David Honig wrote:
>
>>Sure.  But unions work to make membership *compulsory*. They have other
>>legal privledges.
>
>What can you say? People rent-seek. That's an axiom which also goes by the
>name of "rationality". So the problem is not the union, but the
>legislators and their backers.
>

Absolutely.  There should be nothing stopping, nor encouraging, private
assemblies.  To give them --or anyone-- special privledges enforced
by the state is wrong.  But the state is composed of politicians who
care not for principle but for votes.

....

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only 
exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from 
the Public Treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for 
the candidate promising the most benefits from the Public Treasury with 
the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy 
always followed by dictatorship." --Alexander Fraser Tyler




From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Mon Oct 22 16:55:22 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 16:55:22 -0700
Subject: Farm Out! (was Re: Retribution not enough)
References: 
  <3BD4644D.95C0AF5D@cybershamanix.com> <3BD46A4B.AB07AD02@acmenet.net>
  <3BD47B14.C083DE15@cybershamanix.com>
  <3BD48396.7327D406@cybershamanix.com>
  <20011022173908.B15104@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <20011022165522.E21209@navel.introspect>


on Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 05:39:08PM -0400, Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com) wrote:
> Now if only some handy, self-effacing volunteer would come along and
> repost your ill-formatted message wrapped at 72 columns, perhaps with
> a severe admonition about the proper forms of netiquette, my day
> would be complete.

That's wishful thinking, Declan.  After, all, this is a capatilist
society.  What's in it for me? [1]

| Steve Furlong wrote:
| 
| > Then let them. A self-sufficient subsistence farmer won't be bothered by
| > the trade his neighbors are carrying out. [1] His farm can be a
| > neolithic bubble as the world progresses.
| 
| What? You're talking nonsense here. Of course they make part of their
| living selling crops --- what's all the bs about "forging his own
| metals" etc. Total straw man arguement. The point was that they aren't
| "starving" for one thing, and, if it were up to them, they'd stay put.
| 
| Look, I'll try to explain it in terms that perhaps even a city boy like
| you can understand. You don't have to go to the 3rd world, just go talk
| to small american family farmers. There are thousands of them out there
| who simply don't care that they aren't making lots of money -- the
| important thing is that they can keep their farms and do their own
| thing. What's wrong with that?
| 
| You know what destroyed the small family farm in this country? Education
| -- ag schools and the county extension agent. Funded, for the most part,
| by large chemical companies. The old story of the country bumpkin
| getting conned by the city-slicker salesman. Kids went off to ag school,
| came home and told Dad to do things the "modern" way, factory farming
| with modern chemicals -- sure, go into debt, buy all those new tractors
| and fancy equipment and we'll be rich.
| 
| And then, of course, that little trick the Fed Reserve and the banks
| pulled back in the 70's with manipulating the economy so that rural land
| prices went thru the roof, farmers who had been mortgage free for
| generations got duped into borrowing money on their land to buy that
| fancy new equipment that the ag schools and extension agents told them
| they needed, then bingo -- the Fed played some more tricks, land values
| dropped back down, and a whole lot of farmers lost their land.
| 
| Is that what you call free-market economics? I call it fascism -- state
| and industry working in concert to whipsaw the masses and get more
| control over peoples lives. People who were very free and independant
| are suddenly wage slaves in the city because they listened to the
| "experts" from industry and government. And got duped.
| 
| I know one heck of a lot of people who much prefer living in rural
| "poverty" to living in a city making big bucks. Although my wife and I
| have been making a whole lot more money in recent years than we ever
| thought we would, and live in a big fancy house in the city, we consider
| it a serious mistake. Money isn't everything. We were one heck of a lot
| happier when we earned about $4000.00 a year.  We will soon rectify
| that. Why make a bunch money and feed the fascist machine?
| 
| One of my favorite cartoons was one of Snuffy Smith and his wife --- she
| says "Pa, the world is passing us by." Snuffy replies, "It sure better!"
| Damn straight!
| 
| "Tune in, turn on, and drop out."  Now that's real free market economics.
| 
| >
| >
| > If he _isn't_ self-sufficient, then he does care about the trade going
| > on around him. That's been the case forever, and new trade always
| > disrupts someone who was making his living with the way things were.
| >
| > And if he wants to make use of metal tools, then he'll have to exchange
| > as best he can for them. But, again, he's not self-sufficient, unless he
| > can dig and forge his own metals. Complaining that the world isn't the
| > way it was for Grandpa shouldn't get a sympathetic ear from anyone who
| > uses metals, plastics, or medicine, or who eats fresh produce out of
| > season.
| >
| > [1] Assuming they don't pollute him out of raising his crops or
| > livestock, tax or regulate his farm out of existence.
| >
| > --
| > Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
| >   617-670-3793
| >
| > "Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
| > while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato
| 
| --
| Harmon Seaver, MLIS
| CyberShamanix
| Work 920-203-9633
| Home 920-233-5820
| hseaver at cybershamanix.com
| http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html

----------------------------------------
Notes:

1.  Gratuitous abuse from Tim May, of course.  Back to the cornfield.

-- 
Karsten M. Self        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?             Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html




From proff at iq.org  Sun Oct 21 23:58:47 2001
From: proff at iq.org (Julian Assange)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 16:58:47 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20011021215710.01fe91d0@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <20011022065847.1E44C259C3@suburbia.net>


> I'm actually surprised to see Steve launch into a critique of laissez-faire 
> capitalism here on cypherpunks, of all places. One can admit that 
> globalization has ill effects (mostly, bricks through windows of Starbucks 
> thrown by bored, upper-middle-class, college-age protesters), certainly. 
> But when responding to claims that factory workers in poorer countries are 
> only being paid $2/hour or whatnot, it makes sense to ask: Is this worse 
> than their other alternatives, like mud huts in villages?
> 
> To argue against people voluntarily entering into market-based transactions 
> with each other is so a-economical and contrary to cypherpunk philosophies* 
> -- wlel, I just don't think it's worth taking the time to go any further in 
> a response.

Declan, Declan.

Put away your straw man. There are alternative's other than huts
and two dollars an hour (which is high, btw).  Nobel ecconomic
laureates have been telling us for years to be careful about
idealised market models and to start looking at players not as mere
as capital and labour but as information processing nodes.

This years Nobel for Economics won by George A. Akerlof, A.  Michael
Spence and Joseph E. Stiglitz "for their analysis of markets with
assymetric information" is typical.

You don't need a Nobel to realise that the relationship between a
large employer and employee is brutally assymetric. One entity
knows far more about the rules of the negotiation than the other.
There's you as a prospective employee and then there's the local
workplace monopoly with hundreds of industrial relations lawyers,
psychologists, and other assorted strategists who'll hand you a
document thick with legalese and tell you where to sign. Without
a legal team, you'll never understand it or the political connections
backing it up.  And even if you do there's a million other mugs to
choose from who won't.

To counter this sort of assymetry. Employees naturally start trying
to collectivise to increase their information processing and
bargaining power. That's right. UNIONS Declan. Those devious entities
that first world companies and governments have had a hand in
suppressing all over the third world by curtailing freedom of
association, speech and other basic political rights we take for
granted.

--
 Julian Assange        |If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people
                       |together to collect wood or assign them tasks and
 proff at iq.org          |work, but rather teach them to long for the endless
 proff at gnu.ai.mit.edu  |immensity of the sea. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery




From honig at sprynet.com  Mon Oct 22 16:58:54 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 16:58:54 -0700
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011022122414.03a51ab8@pop3.lvcm.com>
References: <3BD46A4B.AB07AD02@acmenet.net>
  
  <3BD4644D.95C0AF5D@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011022165854.00834950@pop.sprynet.com>


At 01:17 PM 10/22/01 -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
>
>One of the great long term hopes for nanotechnology is the "cornucopia" or 
>StarTrek replicator, a device which can "manufacture" from raw materials 
>and information a broad variety of consumables and hard goods.  If it ever 
>does come about and is not something centrally controlled and monitored a 
>'la Stephenson's Diamond Age, it could usher in an age of individual 
>sovereignty the likes of which the world as not known since its transition 
>from hunter gatherer to agriculture.  It might also spell the end of economy.
>
>steve

Replicators exist.  They're called computers.  They can only replicate
bits, but
they do so well enough to make Jack Valenti mess his diapers.

As to the end of the economy, see Schneier (et al?)'s _Street Performer
Protocol_
(IIRC) paper.  But you knew that.




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Mon Oct 22 14:04:41 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 17:04:41 -0400
Subject: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)
References: 
  <20011022200033.25531.qmail@sidereal.kz>
Message-ID: <3BD489E9.236AE75D@acmenet.net>


"Dr. Evil" wrote:
> 
> > It's often the fucking Jews--Feinstein, Feingold, Lieberman,
> > Ellison--who slavishly imitate the Nazis. How ironic to see Larry
> > Ellison pushing the "Papers, please, macht schnell!" Orwellian nightmare.
> 
> That is a good observation, and something which I'll never
> understand.  How can they want to recreate the conditions that lead to
> their families being killed just a couple of generations ago?  How
> could a Jew possibly support gun control?

1. Those who do not learn from history are doomed to be dumbasses.

2. They think they'll be in charge this time.

-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From honig at sprynet.com  Mon Oct 22 17:08:20 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 17:08:20 -0700
Subject: Additional Anthrax Deaths Suspected
In-Reply-To: <20011022181004.E15104@cluebot.com>
References: <200110222152.f9MLqqP01988@artifact.psychedelic.net>
  <20011022143658.B5970@navel.introspect>
  <200110222152.f9MLqqP01988@artifact.psychedelic.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011022170820.00826250@pop.sprynet.com>


At 06:10 PM 10/22/01 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 02:52:52PM -0700, Eric Cordian wrote:
>> The vaccine has not been proven safe and effective, nor released for use
>> in the general population.  The military has to take it because they are
>> ordered to.
>
>And sometimes not even then. 


What happens if you're knocked up (in the American sense) and get
vaccinated?  Some vaccines are very contraindicated in that condition.
How about the immunocompromised, elderly, young?  The .mil pop is very
different from the general one.  

As for liability/paranoia issues, just look at the autistism folks who 
blame some vaccine instead of genes (because autism becomes noticable 
around the time of that vaccine, and the genetic evidence is only recently
being discovered).

Maybe that's not so important since you can't sue your gov't.




From declan at well.com  Mon Oct 22 14:11:43 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 17:11:43 -0400
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@einstein.ssz.com on Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 12:35:21AM -0500
References: <65A8B6DA-C6AA-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net> 
Message-ID: <20011022171142.A15104@cluebot.com>


On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 12:35:21AM -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> that their efforts are rewarded with an equitable share of the profits
> their efforts created. The very basis of free market economies, one is

It's remarkable to see such contradictory views side-by-side and 
called "free market economics." Ah, Choatian beliefs are a many-
splendored thing.

-Declan




From declan at well.com  Mon Oct 22 14:39:08 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 17:39:08 -0400
Subject: Farm Out! (was Re: Retribution not enough)
In-Reply-To: <3BD48396.7327D406@cybershamanix.com>; from
  hseaver@cybershamanix.com on Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 03:38:41PM -0500
References: 
  <3BD4644D.95C0AF5D@cybershamanix.com> <3BD46A4B.AB07AD02@acmenet.net>
  <3BD47B14.C083DE15@cybershamanix.com>
  <3BD48396.7327D406@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <20011022173908.B15104@cluebot.com>


Now if only some handy, self-effacing volunteer would come along and
repost your ill-formatted message wrapped at 72 columns, perhaps with
a severe admonition about the proper forms of netiquette, my day
would be complete.

-Declan


On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 03:38:41PM -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>      Hmm, now that is bizarre. Anybody have any idea why Netscape does
> that sometimes? And not others? It looks fine when I hit the send button
> -- then gets trashed. I've got line space set at 72, it's supposed to go
> text only, no html, but it's got the same trashed formatting in the copy
> that goes to Sent. And it seems to be only the Mac version of NS that
> does this, not the linux version.
>    If it did it all the time it would be understandable.
> 
> --
> Harmon Seaver, MLIS
> CyberShamanix
> Work 920-203-9633
> Home 920-233-5820
> hseaver at cybershamanix.com
> http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html




From ign at ign.com  Mon Oct 22 17:39:14 2001
From: ign at ign.com (ign at ign.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 17:39:14 PDT
Subject: Do you want to Unleash it? Exclusive Xbox Tournament in NYC
References: 
Message-ID: 

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 3154 bytes
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URL: 

From declan at well.com  Mon Oct 22 14:49:20 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 17:49:20 -0400
Subject: fanaticism, left anarchists, and CACLing
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011021221329.021c4910@pop.gmx.net>; from saeq@gmx.net on Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 01:03:40AM -0700
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011020130355.03dac308@pop3.lvcm.com> <20011020134200.B18679@cluebot.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20011019162608.038b25a0@pop3.lvcm.com> <00e601c158e4$70b40bc0$01000001@PATRICK> <5.1.0.14.0.20011019162608.038b25a0@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20011021215710.01fe91d0@mail.well.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20011021221329.021c4910@pop.gmx.net>
Message-ID: <20011022174920.C15104@cluebot.com>


On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 01:03:40AM -0700, Luthor Blisset wrote:
>          But no - for many CACL types, those using black bloc tactics were 
> just bored, upper-middle-class, college-age, uninformed dumbshits 
> pointlessly throwing rocks through starbucks windows - an image similar in 
> accuracy to that of the bored, upper-middle-class, insularly utopian 

Alas, it also happens to be accurate. I've covered these protests in
three cities so far, and generally the protesters have done little in
the way of coherent thinking, are more united in their negative
statements about capitalism and free trade and such than in their
positive statements about what they wish to see happen, condemn
capitalism while using the fruits of capitalism like cell phones and
Palm pilots to organize their protests, and so on.

Some photos:
http://www.mccullagh.org/image/10/protesters-pushing-dumpster.html
http://www.mccullagh.org/image/950-12/dem-protests-3.html

Example of one of the well-thought-out messages:
http://www.mccullagh.org/image/10/breastfeeding-is-your-right.html

There are exceptions, of course. But by and large, my summary was accurate.

-Declan




From honig at sprynet.com  Mon Oct 22 17:55:44 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 17:55:44 -0700
Subject: Disney's SSSCA psy-ops: "EZ Jackster"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011022175544.00835dd0@pop.sprynet.com>


In the next episode, Osama bin Laden makes a cameo, on Jackster's side
of course. 





At 04:31 PM 10/22/01 -0700, Xeni Jardin wrote:
>Forwarding a post from the pho digital music list (end of this message). A
>Newsforge item that also appeared about this today reads:
>
>"--Disney Channel cartoon portrays music downloads as evil
>The Disney Channel cartoon series The Proud Family
>(http://disney.go.com/disneychannel/zoogdisney/shows/proudfamily/index_main
.html
>)
>aired an episode on Oct. 5 entitled EZ Jackster. In the storyline, EZ
>Jackster is a Napster-like site, and the show's little heroines
>get addicted to the service and play a part in the downfall of the music
>industry. Disney is one of the backers of the SSSCA proposed legislation
>that is scheduled for a hearing before Congress Oct. 25.
>
>The TV summary site, TV Tome, shows this synopsis of the episode in question:
>
>"After Penny spends $125 on CDs with her five-cent salary, she meets a boy,
>Mega, who tells her about a napster-like website he made called EZ
Jackster. All
>weekend she was sitting at the computer, downloading music from EZ Jackster.
>Finally, Dijonay comes over and asks what she was doing over the weekend.
Penny
>asks Dijonay if she can keep a secret, knowing that she can't. Penny tells
>Dijonay to tell everyone she knows about EZ Jackster. Her telling everybody
>about EZ Jackster has a ripple-effect all around the world. From India to
Africa
>to Suga Mama! But rap singer, Sir Paid-A-Lot is threatened by this because he
>got a five-cents salary instead of his million-dollar salary. But suddenly,
>after wrestling, the news interrupted the next program telling about EZ
>Jackster. It shows a house of where the EZ Jackster-spreader lives. Oscar
>comments how ugly the house is, not realizing it was their house. Trudy is
mad
>at Penny for stealing music so she takes away her computer. Later, Penny
gets a
>call from Mega, asking if she is still using EZ Jackster. Will Penny
listen to
>her parents?"--"
>
>[BEGIN PHO POST]
>-----Original Message-----
>From: PHO
>Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 12:06 AM
>Subject: pho: Tonight on Disney
>
>
>
>Well Pho Pholks
>Lara Lavi here from Very Juicy Records
>
>I relay this without passing judgement just sharing with you what I just saw
>this evening.
>
>I turn on the TV with my little 2.5 year old to watch some Disney show about
>an African American teen girl (The Proud Family - animated show) and here is
>the story line ( I think I missed the first couple scenes but here is the
>general jist.
>
>1.    Girl working at her antiquated computer her dad gave her in her room.
>
>2.    Mystery guy (cool hip hop looking dude in black) shows up at her
>window and supplies her with an up to date computer, takes her into "the
>Matrix and shows her a web area called Free Jackster where she can get all
>the music she could ever want FOR FREE,
>
>3.    The girl asks if this is illegal and mystery guy explains it is our
>birthright to have free music, creativity should not have a price
>
>4.   Girl gets addicted to collecting free music, her obsession leads to
>telling all her friends.  soon the site is getting millions of hits from
>kids to grandmothers.
>
>5.  Next scene at the The Wizard Record Label board room where "Sir Paid
>Alot" enters to complain his royalty check was only five cents. This alerts
>The Wizard (head of the label) that  there is a retail problem he needs to
>look into.
>
>6.    Teen Girl's house is surrounded that night by police and press and she
>is arrested for illegal downloads, gets a warning,.  The news makes it clear
>that millions of people can;'t be stopped, Parents take computer away from
>girl and explain why free downloads is STEALING. - kind of an abirdged
>explanation of how copyrights work.
>
>6.   Next scene, Asian Guy's retail record store is empty, guy is crying on
>the floor.  Teen Girl who happens to work at the store show  up to work,
>aisian guy fires her for supporting all the free downloads
>
>7.  Next scene charts showing record sales are down down down to nothing
>because people get the music for free
>
>8.  Mystery guy shows up at teen girls' window again to try and convince her
>to go back to downloading but she says NO
>
>7.     Guy:  "You still downloading?", Teen Girl:  DOwnloading is stealin"
>Mr. Guy from Free Jackster: " I know you are afraid I am trying to show you
>a world without rules"  Teen girl says no its wrong GOODBYE
>
>THE END
>
>[END PHO POST]




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Mon Oct 22 14:59:52 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 17:59:52 -0400
Subject: Farm Out! (was Re: Retribution not enough)
References: 
	  <3BD4644D.95C0AF5D@cybershamanix.com> <3BD46A4B.AB07AD02@acmenet.net> <3BD47B14.C083DE15@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <3BD496D8.AEF5EED2@acmenet.net>


Harmon Seaver wrote:
> 
> Steve Furlong wrote:
> 
> > Then let them. A self-sufficient subsistence farmer won't be bothered by
> > the trade his neighbors are carrying out. [1] His farm can be a
> > neolithic bubble as the world progresses.
> 
>       What? You're talking nonsense here. Of course they make part of their living
> selling crops --- what's all the bs about "forging his own metals" etc. Total straw
> man arguement.

Not at all. I evidently didn't make my point clearly enough. What
follows will attempt to proceed from "second principles", since I don't
want to take the time to go from first principles.

Since prehistory, the only person who was able to go completely his own
way, without having to worry about what anyone else was doing, was the
totally self-sufficient man. (Woman, whatever.) If you don't need
anything from anyone, you don't need to care if the price changes on the
goods or services they want or are selling.

(This post is concerned only with mutually agreeable economic dealings.
Use of force, whether by government or by other bandits, changes the
discussion.)

As soon as you start trading, such as for metal tools to replace the
wood, stone, and bone you'd have to use otherwise, you have to be able
to provide something they want in order to get what you want. If you've
been trading an acre's yield of corn for a metal plow, but now your
blacksmith is able to get his corn cheaper by efficient trade with
someone farther away, you'd better drop your price, do without the plow,
or learn to make your own. Proceed with this argument and you can be
guaranteed of being able to grow your crops in your own way only if you
don't need anything from anyone else, a return to self-sufficiency.

The argument doesn't change just because the scale changes. If a ten
thousand acre corporate farm is able to produce grain more cheaply than
a hundred acre family farm, the family farmers' "rights" have not been
trampled just because they can't make their living as they did any
longer. They can't compete in the new environment, and they can change
their methods, attempt to become self-sufficient, or die.

Let me emphasize, I'm still talking about pure free market here. ADM has
a very effective lobbying machine, and gets handouts (gasahol) which
makes them more economically competitive than they naturally are.


>       Look, I'll try to explain it in terms that perhaps even a city boy like you
> can understand.

Watch your assumptions. I've done plenty of farm work, all on family
farms, from planting and weeding by hand because the ground was too soft
for machines to shoveling cow shit. (And getting stepped on by the
malicious animals, but that only adds to the vindictive pleasure of
eating beef.) I much prefer computer consulting, thanks, and wouldn't
farm again unless my life depended on it.


Your theory about the ag schools and county agents and such may be
right; I don't know enough to comment on them.


SRF

-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Mon Oct 22 18:00:42 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:00:42 -0700
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: <3BD4BC8F.C4EE83B8@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: 


Harmon Seaver wrote:

> Sure [with regard to periodic starvation],
> but for the most part, they did alright,
> else we would not be here.

Tell that to the 7th kine.  In reality, subsistence (this word means
something) farmers were mostly chronically malnourished--even in the good
times--and died in droves whenever the sun didn't shine or the rain didn't
fall.  I don't consider that doing "alright."

> > Only modern "factory farms" seem immune
> > that this cycle.
> >
>
>  Not so -- only because of corporate welfare.

Can you be more specific?  "Corporate welfare" such as making the rain fall
or what?

> That's the point I was trying to make --
> they aren't being "starved" out. And, as
> I pointed out previously with the Amish,
> it isn't that they are not mechanized
> enough, or not big enough. So why are
> they losing their land and moving to the
> city to become wageslaves for some megacorp?

You tell me.  It would appear that either you are wrong about the economic
viability of their farms or they are somehow acting against their own best
interest.  Subsistence farmers are going to the cities because they
(correctly) understand that to do so increases their standard of living.
Period.

> In Latin America we see them primarily
> being kicked off their land by
> "paramilitarys" usually in the pay of
> big ranchers and/or megacorp argribiz,
> and sometimes by the army. Maybe kicked
> off is too strong -- frightened off by
> all the rapes and murders and beatings,
> or, with the army, "relocated" to make
> them "safe" from the guerillas (and to
> stop them from feeding the guerillas).

Even assuming, arguendo, that this is true (evidence, please), this is not a
failure of the market or the fault of the "sweat shop" operators.  In fact,
the "sweat shop" operators are the only heroes in this scenario.  They are
at least providing something better than the dislocated farmers would have
had otherwise.  Good for them.


 S a n d y




From declan at well.com  Mon Oct 22 15:05:10 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:05:10 -0400
Subject: And another one bites the dust, another one down, another
  one down
In-Reply-To: <10C03712-C713-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>; from
  tcmay@got.net on Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 10:34:37AM -0700
References: <178AF14C-C69D-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>
  <10C03712-C713-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <20011022180510.D15104@cluebot.com>


On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 10:34:37AM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> I've been watching a press conference of D.C. politicos, mayor and 
> company, on CNN. Looks like several inhalational anthrax cases 
> confirmed, and *two deaths* of postal workers over the weekend with 
> "suspicious" symptoms and test results.

I just got back to DC today (was out of state for the weekend), and I'm
sad to admit that out of all the 400K+ population cities I can imagine,
Washington is particularly ill-suited to deal with anthrax, let alone
prepare a reasonable response.

The mail arrived today, but I fear that packages (I'm expecting a 1 GB
IBM microdrive to be shipped via the post) will be delayed for a
while.

-Declan




From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Mon Oct 22 16:07:52 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:07:52 -0500
Subject: Farm Out! (was Re: Retribution not enough)
References: 
	  <3BD4644D.95C0AF5D@cybershamanix.com> <3BD46A4B.AB07AD02@acmenet.net>
	  <3BD47B14.C083DE15@cybershamanix.com> <3BD496D8.AEF5EED2@acmenet.net>
Message-ID: <3BD4A680.31B403@cybershamanix.com>


Steve Furlong wrote:

> Your theory about the ag schools and county agents and such may be
> right; I don't know enough to comment on them.
>

      The best example I can give is the Amish. They *don't* send their sons to ag
school (don't even educate them past 7th grade actually) and don't listen to the
extension agents, and make money with small, totally old fashioned, organic farms. No
tractors, horses to plow with -- and make enough that when each son gets married, they
buy him a farm with cash.
They don't do the factory farm trip, don't get look for gov't handouts (which is what
*all* the big, agri-biz farms do), and compete very well.


--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver at cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html





From declan at well.com  Mon Oct 22 15:10:04 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:10:04 -0400
Subject: Additional Anthrax Deaths Suspected
In-Reply-To: <200110222152.f9MLqqP01988@artifact.psychedelic.net>; from
  emc@artifact.psychedelic.net on Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 02:52:52PM -0700
References: <20011022143658.B5970@navel.introspect>
  <200110222152.f9MLqqP01988@artifact.psychedelic.net>
Message-ID: <20011022181004.E15104@cluebot.com>


On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 02:52:52PM -0700, Eric Cordian wrote:
> The vaccine has not been proven safe and effective, nor released for use
> in the general population.  The military has to take it because they are
> ordered to.

And sometimes not even then. From something I wrote in 1999:

http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,18485,00.html
The note and others like it have spread like the plague. A group of 23
sailors on the USS Theodore Roosevelt aircraft carrier refused to take
their shots and were demoted, the Pentagon said Thursday. The day
before, the Air Force kicked out a recalcitrant airman. Some officers
have resigned rather than take the vaccine.  Officials blame the
Internet for infecting the rank and file. At a recent press briefing,
Pentagon spokesman Mike Doubleday decried "misinformation which is
available to people on various Web sites regarding anthrax, and also
the anthrax vaccine."

-Declan




From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Mon Oct 22 18:28:40 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:28:40 -0700
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011022165854.00834950@pop.sprynet.com>; from
  honig@sprynet.com on Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 04:58:54PM -0700
References: <3BD46A4B.AB07AD02@acmenet.net>
  
  <3BD4644D.95C0AF5D@cybershamanix.com>
  <5.1.0.14.0.20011022122414.03a51ab8@pop3.lvcm.com>
  <3.0.6.32.20011022165854.00834950@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <20011022182839.E25980@navel.introspect>


on Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 04:58:54PM -0700, David Honig (honig at sprynet.com)
wrote:
> At 01:17 PM 10/22/01 -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
> >
> >One of the great long term hopes for nanotechnology is the
> >"cornucopia" or StarTrek replicator, a device which can "manufacture"
> >from raw materials and information a broad variety of consumables and
> >hard goods.  If it ever does come about and is not something
> >centrally controlled and monitored a 'la Stephenson's Diamond Age, it
> >could usher in an age of individual sovereignty the likes of which
> >the world as not known since its transition from hunter gatherer to
> >agriculture.  It might also spell the end of economy.
> >
> >steve
>
> Replicators exist.  They're called computers.  They can only replicate
> bits, but
> they do so well enough to make Jack Valenti mess his diapers.
>
> As to the end of the economy, see Schneier (et al?)'s _Street
> Performer Protocol_ (IIRC) paper.  But you knew that.

Better yet:  energy can't be replicated.

--
Karsten M. Self        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?             Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]




From sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com  Mon Oct 22 18:34:02 2001
From: sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com (sonofgomez709)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:34:02 -0700
Subject: eWe Won't Have CJ Parker and Richard NIxon To Kick Around Any More...
Message-ID: <002601c15b63$09069200$5f0da2cd@vaio>

QWest came around to 'fix' the phone lines today...about
an hour before my Probation Officer showed up with two
colleagues to 'Jack Me Up' about my posts to the CPUNX
Disturbed Male LISP...
Prosecutor London, in his closing remarks during my last
AllegedImaginary Trial, stated that the reason I would soon
be InFarceRated was due to the fact that when the Secret
Service sent a couple of guys around to "Jack [Me] Up"
and get me to ShutTheFuckUp!, it didn't work?
Can eWe say, "DeJa Vu All Over Again?"
Sure eWe can...

So, the GoodNews is that I can probably avoid being
sent back to the BOP to be Tortured4BeingDisAbled
simply by ShuttingTheFuckUp!
The BadNews, OfCourseOfCourse [TM], is that I have thus
far proved incapable of doing so, despite, as a result, having
already faced PerseProsExecution, Physical Torture, denial
of Constitutional, Civil and Human Rights, Medical Torture
and Abuse, and threats of Permanent InFarceRation in a
Prison4TheCriminallyInSane...
This is probably all of the information eWe need before 
placing your Bet on the Date of my ReLease rEvokation...

Richard Nixon said, "Let me make one thing perfectly 
clear..." but he never did.  Neither will I, but anyone who
really wishes to hear what I have to say, without merely
using my words and thoughts to provide substantiation
of their own WorldvEwe, will find that my interests lie
only in providing my own personal Mirror of the Tao,
which one is welcome to look into order to take a look
at their own Reality [TM] from the perspective of 
another, in order to expand their ReFlexion and their
AwareNess of ThemSelf.


FuckTheseMorons! [TM] seem to have a problem with my
eMail to the Seattle Times and the CPDMLISP, entitled,
"Fuck Thomas Wales, and Fuck His Whole Family..."
THEY [TM] seem to be unable to Face the FundaMental
Fact which contains the WholePoint of the Message,
which points out that, "I'm sure all of the 'nice' things you
say about the federal prosecutor who was recently 
removed from office are true."

The Problem, OfCourseOfCourse [TM], is that the Man
who was Murdered was, in all likelihood, as the article
portrays, a wonderful Father&Husband, a good Neighbor,
a Conscientious CitizenUnit, and was Loved by his
Dog...
Leading to the Real [TM] Problem, for the multitude of
people employed in similar positions, which is...
Despite the above, the Dude is still Dead...
Despite the above, the Dude's Death is, in all likelihood,
a direct result of his activities in his chosen career...
Despite the above, it may well be that the Dude's Death
may have been the result of another CitizenUnit merely
replying in kind to Criminal&OR&UnJust Actions enforced
at GunPoint by the DeadDude, his CoConSpiritorColleagues,
or simply TheSystem itself...

MyProblem, OfCourseOfCourse [TM], is that I believe that
the EndLessCycle of PeopleFuckingPeople can only be
MitiGated&OR&Ended by individuals Facing the Facts
of Reality and the Questions thus engendered.
e.g. - Fact: Many of the leading Nazis loved opera, and
were loved by their dogs.  Question: How did Seattle
Time's reports on Hitler's death compare to the article
on Thomas Wales?

FCI-TRV Corrections Officer Waters, in the course of his
job duties, participated in my being FourPointed in LegIrons
and HandCuffs as PunishMent for Exhibiting Symptoms
of Medical DisAbilities for which the BOP was denying
me competent medical treatment.
CO Waters, out of the view of his superiors and fellow
employees, put a pair of socks on me, to help keep me
warm, as an act of basic human kindness.

FCI-TRV Counselor Brinkman chose not to interfere with
or object to a host of violations of BOP policy in the
course of my being subjected to illegal, abusive treatment
during my incarceration at FCI-Three Rivers.
Counselor Brinkman also took many opportunities to help
me circumvent my inability to meet certain BOP conditions
and requirements, enabling me to spend a reasonable
portion of my incarceration in living conditions which 
were humane and non-abusive.

Perhaps federal prosecutor Wales was Murdered by
someone whom he or his colleagues subjected to many
of the Criminal Abuses of Justice and Human Rights
that take place daily in TheSystem which Mr. Wales
chose to make his career.
Perhaps Thomas Wales was Murdered by someone
whom he had gone out of his way to aid in receiving
Justice, for reasons which have little or nothing to do
with the conduct of Mr. Wales, himself.
Perhaps Mr. Wales' colleagues might take time to 
reflect on how their own disposition of their job duties
increase or decrease the likelihood of those whom their
activities affect feeling justified in exacting retribution
for their treatment at the hands of TheSystem.

Perhaps if the Seattle Times were to publish an article
titled, "Fuck Thomas Wales, and Fuck His Whole
Family," questioning whether his death might be the
result of an Abusive Justice System's Chickens Coming
Home To Roost, I might feel compelled to point out that
Thomas Wales a good CitizenUnit and Neighbor, whose
family and dog loved him, may well have performed his
job duties in a way that increased, rather than decreased,
the likelihood of other CitizenUnits receiving Justice in
TheSystem in which he chose to make his career.
OfCourseOfCourse [TM] there would be those who wouldn't
want to hear this, and who would probably rather that I
just ShutTheFuckUp!

Perhaps if the MainStreamDream Media were to publish
something more than just predictable, meaningless drivel
in regard to the Reality of the Justice System leading to
Tragedy for all concerned, in an EndLess CrapShoot
of PeopleFuckingPeople, then there would be nothing
left for me to say, and I would just ShutTheFuckUp!


CJ Parker 
"Fuck Me, And Fuck My Whole Family"
http://profiles.yahoo.com/sonofgomez709
http://www.technopagan.org/politics/xenix/
http://members.w-link.net/~sog/INDEX.HTM
http://jya.com/cejfiles.htm

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From remailer at aarg.net  Mon Oct 22 18:40:01 2001
From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:40:01 -0700
Subject: FBI considers torture as suspects stay silent
Message-ID: <39c267c21257501b331f69c13e6ab5a9@aarg.net>


http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2001350021-2001364909,00.html

FBI considers torture as suspects stay silent 

FROM DAMIAN WHITWORTH IN WASHINGTON 

AMERICAN investigators are considering resorting to harsher
interrogation techniques, including torture, after facing a wall of
silence from jailed suspected members of Osama bin Ladens al-Qaeda
network, according to a report yesterday.

More than 150 people who were picked up after September 11 remain in
custody, with four men the focus of particularly intense scrutiny. But
investigators have found the usual methods have failed to persuade any
of them to talk.

Options being weighed include truth drugs, pressure tactics and
extraditing the suspects to countries whose security services are more
used to employing a heavy-handed approach during interrogations.

Were into this thing for 35 days and nobody is talking. Frustration
has begun to appear, a senior FBI official told The Washington Post.

Under US law, evidence !
extracted using physical pressure or torture is
inadmissible in court and interrogators could also face criminal
charges for employing such methods. However, investigators suggested
that the time might soon come when a truth serum, such as sodium
pentothal, would be deemed an acceptable tool for interrogators.

The public pressure for results in the war on terrorism might also
persuade the FBI to encourage the countries of suspects to seek their
extradition, in the knowledge that they could be given a much rougher
reception in jails back home.

One of the four key suspects is Zacarias Moussaoui, a French Moroccan,
suspected of being a twentieth hijacker who failed to make it on board
the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania. Moussaoui was detained after
he acted suspiciously at a Minnesota flying school, requesting lessons
in how to steer a plane but not how to take off or land. Both Morocco
and France are regarded as having harsher interrogation methods than
the United States!
.

The investigators have been disappointed that the usual incentives to
break suspects, such as promises of shorter sentences, money, jobs and
new lives in the witness protection programme, have failed to break
the silence.

We are known for humanitarian treatment, so basically we are stuck.
Usually there is some incentive, some angle to play, what you can do
for them. But it could get to that spot where we could go to pressure
. . . where we dont have a choice, and we are probably getting
there, an FBI agent involved in the investigation told the paper.

The other key suspects being held in New York are Mohammed Jaweed
Azmath and Ayub Ali Khan, Indians who were caught the day after the
attacks travelling with false passports, craft knives such as those
used in the hijackings and hair dye. Nabil Almarabh, a Boston taxi
driver alleged to have links to al-Qaeda, is also being held. Some
legal experts believe that the US Supreme Court, which has a
conservative tilt, might !
be prepared to support curtailing the civil
liberties of prisoners in terrorism cases.

However, a warning that torture should be avoided came from Robert
Blitzer, a former head of the FBIs counter-terrorism section. He said
that the practice goes against every grain in my body. Chances are
you are going to get the wrong person and risk damage or killing
them.

In all, about 800 people have been rounded up since the attacks, most
of whom are expected to be found to be innocent. Investigators believe
there could be hundreds of people linked to al-Qaeda living in the US,
and the Bush Administration has issued a warning that more attacks are
probably being planned.

Newsweek magazine reports today that Mohammed Atta, the suspected
ringleader who died in the first plane to hit the World Trade Centre,
had been looking into hitting an aircraft carrier. Investigators
retracing his movements found that he visited the huge US Navy base at
Norfolk, Virginia, in February and April t!
his year.




From honig at sprynet.com  Mon Oct 22 18:48:10 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:48:10 -0700
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: <20011022182839.E25980@navel.introspect>
References: <3.0.6.32.20011022165854.00834950@pop.sprynet.com>
  <3BD46A4B.AB07AD02@acmenet.net>
  
  <3BD4644D.95C0AF5D@cybershamanix.com>
  <5.1.0.14.0.20011022122414.03a51ab8@pop3.lvcm.com>
  <3.0.6.32.20011022165854.00834950@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011022184810.00836100@pop.sprynet.com>


At 06:28 PM 10/22/01 -0700, Karsten M. Self wrote:
>
>Better yet:  energy can't be replicated.
>

True, but: 
Get yourself a breeder reactor, and you can sell the fuel you make
as you sell the power you make.




From tcmay at got.net  Mon Oct 22 18:52:05 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:52:05 -0700
Subject: Farm Out! (was Re: Retribution not enough)
In-Reply-To: <3BD48396.7327D406@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <8F4408B7-C758-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Monday, October 22, 2001, at 01:38 PM, Harmon Seaver wrote:

>      Hmm, now that is bizarre. Anybody have any idea why Netscape does
> that sometimes? And not others? It looks fine when I hit the send button

Does _what_?

It would help if you gave an example of what you're talking about.

> -- then gets trashed. I've got line space set at 72, it's supposed to go
> text only, no html, but it's got the same trashed formatting in the copy
> that goes to Sent. And it seems to be only the Mac version of NS that
> does this, not the linux version.

You must be the only remaining user of NS (for either the Mac or 
Windows). Everyone I know gave up on NS 5 and moved on to IE. It's not 
perfect, but it's not buggy like "AOLscape" is.

IE 5.1 is pretty good on OS X, as is OmniWeb.

--Tim May
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, 
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance 
accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give 
orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, 
pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, 
die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." --Robert A. Heinlein




From tcmay at got.net  Mon Oct 22 19:01:31 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 19:01:31 -0700
Subject: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3BD489E9.236AE75D@acmenet.net>
Message-ID: 


On Monday, October 22, 2001, at 02:04 PM, Steve Furlong wrote:

> "Dr. Evil" wrote:
>>
>>> It's often the fucking Jews--Feinstein, Feingold, Lieberman,
>>> Ellison--who slavishly imitate the Nazis. How ironic to see Larry
>>> Ellison pushing the "Papers, please, macht schnell!" Orwellian 
>>> nightmare.
>>
>> That is a good observation, and something which I'll never
>> understand.  How can they want to recreate the conditions that lead to
>> their families being killed just a couple of generations ago?  How
>> could a Jew possibly support gun control?
>
> 1. Those who do not learn from history are doomed to be dumbasses.
>
> 2. They think they'll be in charge this time.

America's Jews who are in politics are the new "trustys" (or is it 
"trustees"?).

They are like the Jews who helped load the furnaces with other Jews. 
They hoped for better treatment by the camp managers. Often they were 
sent to the furnaces when their usefulness was over...with new trustys 
doing the dirty work.

Something in the Jew makes him a sucker for following orders.

Feinstein, Schumer, Lieberman, all of the despicable Jews pushing police 
state measures...they hope that if they lick Big Brother's boot they'll 
be safe.


--Tim May
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only 
exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from 
the Public Treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for 
the candidate promising the most benefits from the Public Treasury with 
the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy 
always followed by dictatorship." --Alexander Fraser Tyler




From keyser-soze at hushmail.com  Mon Oct 22 19:01:47 2001
From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 19:01:47 -0700
Subject: Disney's SSSCA psy-ops: "EZ Jackster"
Message-ID: <200110230201.f9N21lR57919@mailserver1.hushmail.com>


>"--Disney Channel cartoon portrays music downloads as evil
The Disney Channel cartoon series The Proud Family
(http://disney.go.com/disneychannel/zoogdisney/shows/proudfamily/index_main.html)aired an episode on Oct. 5 entitled EZ Jackster. In the storyline, EZ
Jackster is a Napster-like site, and the show's little heroines
get addicted to the service and play a part in the downfall of the music
industry. Disney is one of the backers of the SSSCA proposed legislation
that is scheduled for a hearing before Congress Oct. 25.

References: 
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011022185400.0360f6c0@idiom.com>


At 04:16 PM 10/22/2001 -0700, Eric Cordian wrote:
>Anonymous forwarded:
>
> > "It wasn't a trick," Copperfield told Bild am Sonntag newspaper after
> > the performance on the popular Wanna Bet? show on ZDF television. "It
> > was more an experiment and mental exercise. We only use about 10 per
> > cent of our brain capacity."
>...
>How gullible can people be?  The only magical art Copperfield has mastered
>is the building of overengineered stage props.
>
>Randi would blow this away in 10 seconds.  Better they had buried
>Copperfield's box in a Faraday Cage under 10 feet of wet cement, and had
>the armed guards watch that.


Now, if Penn and Teller had done the same thing, they'd say
"Of course it's a trick!  We fooled you guys,
and you couldn't catch how we did it!
People only use 10% of our brain capacity,
but we're using 15% of ours and you're using 5% of yours,
so tricking you is *easy*!  And we can do it again,
with Teller hanging upside down in a straightjacket
over a bed of nails!"

Occasionally you can see how they do their tricks,
usually in the "Mofo the Psychic Gorilla" schtick,
but that's because while you're catching them doing one trick,
they're actually setting up another one.  Mofo knows.....

BTW, Penn did a nice anti-Clipper rant in his computer column
about N years ago.




From remailer at aarg.net  Mon Oct 22 19:10:22 2001
From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 19:10:22 -0700
Subject: FBI considers torture as suspects stay silent
Message-ID: <20011022191022.A27947@navel.introspect>


[A whipping-boys-for-legible-content repost.]

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2001350021-2001364909,00.html

    MONDAY OCTOBER 22 2001
    FBI considers torture as suspects stay silent
    FROM DAMIAN WHITWORTH IN WASHINGTON

    AMERICAN investigators are considering resorting to harsher
    interrogation techniques, including torture, after facing a wall of
    silence from jailed suspected members of Osama bin Ladens al-Qaeda
    network, according to a report yesterday.

    More than 150 people who were picked up after September 11 remain in
    custody, with four men the focus of particularly intense scrutiny.
    But investigators have found the usual methods have failed to
    persuade any of them to talk.

    Options being weighed include truth drugs, pressure tactics and
    extraditing the suspects to countries whose security services are
    more used to employing a heavy-handed approach during
    interrogations.

    Were into this thing for 35 days and nobody is talking. Frustration
    has begun to appear, a senior FBI official told The Washington Post.

    Under US law, evidence extracted using physical pressure or torture
    is inadmissible in court and interrogators could also face criminal
    charges for employing such methods. However, investigators suggested
    that the time might soon come when a truth serum, such as sodium
    pentothal, would be deemed an acceptable tool for interrogators.

    The public pressure for results in the war on terrorism might also
    persuade the FBI to encourage the countries of suspects to seek
    their extradition, in the knowledge that they could be given a much
    rougher reception in jails back home.

    One of the four key suspects is Zacarias Moussaoui, a French
    Moroccan, suspected of being a twentieth hijacker who failed to make
    it on board the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania. Moussaoui was
    detained after he acted suspiciously at a Minnesota flying school,
    requesting lessons in how to steer a plane but not how to take off
    or land. Both Morocco and France are regarded as having harsher
    interrogation methods than the United States.

    The investigators have been disappointed that the usual incentives
    to break suspects, such as promises of shorter sentences, money,
    jobs and new lives in the witness protection programme, have failed
    to break the silence.

    We are known for humanitarian treatment, so basically we are stuck.
    Usually there is some incentive, some angle to play, what you can do
    for them. But it could get to that spot where we could go to
    pressure . . . where we dont have a choice, and we are probably
    getting there, an FBI agent involved in the investigation told the
    paper.

    The other key suspects being held in New York are Mohammed Jaweed
    Azmath and Ayub Ali Khan, Indians who were caught the day after the
    attacks travelling with false passports, craft knives such as those
    used in the hijackings and hair dye. Nabil Almarabh, a Boston taxi
    driver alleged to have links to al-Qaeda, is also being held. Some
    legal experts believe that the US Supreme Court, which has a
    conservative tilt, might be prepared to support curtailing the civil
    liberties of prisoners in terrorism cases.

    However, a warning that torture should be avoided came from Robert
    Blitzer, a former head of the FBIs counter-terrorism section. He
    said that the practice goes against every grain in my body. Chances
    are you are going to get the wrong person and risk damage or killing
    them.

    In all, about 800 people have been rounded up since the attacks,
    most of whom are expected to be found to be innocent. Investigators
    believe there could be hundreds of people linked to al-Qaeda living
    in the US, and the Bush Administration has issued a warning that
    more attacks are probably being planned.

    Newsweek magazine reports today that Mohammed Atta, the suspected
    ringleader who died in the first plane to hit the World Trade
    Centre, had been looking into hitting an aircraft carrier.
    Investigators retracing his movements found that he visited the huge
    US Navy base at Norfolk, Virginia, in February and April this year.

    Copyright 2001 Times Newspapers Ltd. 




From georgemw at speakeasy.net  Mon Oct 22 19:34:18 2001
From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 19:34:18 -0700
Subject: Netscape Out! 
In-Reply-To: <8F4408B7-C758-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>
References: <3BD48396.7327D406@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <3BD474BA.2040.269235E@localhost>


On 22 Oct 2001, at 18:52, Tim May wrote:

 
> You must be the only remaining user of NS (for either the Mac or 
> Windows). Everyone I know gave up on NS 5 and moved on to IE. It's not 
> perfect, but it's not buggy like "AOLscape" is.
> 

There never was a netscape 5, they jumped from 4.5 to 6.

George

> IE 5.1 is pretty good on OS X, as is OmniWeb.
> 
> --Tim May
> "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, 
> butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance 
> accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give 
> orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, 
> pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, 
> die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." --Robert A. Heinlein




From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Mon Oct 22 17:42:07 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 19:42:07 -0500
Subject: Retribution not enough
References: 
Message-ID: <3BD4BC8F.C4EE83B8@cybershamanix.com>


Sandy Sandfort wrote:

> No, actually history records a succession of starvations.  (Remember that
> part about Moses interpreting pharaohs dream about 6 fat and 1 skinny kine?)

     Sure, but for the most part, they did alright, else we would not be here.

>
> Only modern "factory farms" seem immune that this cycle.
>

     Not so -- only because of corporate welfare.


>
> Also, your argument makes no economic sense.  Against whom are these
> peasants competing?  Surely they can eat what they grow no matter how
> cheaply the "rapacious" factory farmers price their wares.

       That's the point I was trying to make -- they aren't being "starved"
out. And, as I pointed out previously with the Amish, it isn't that they are
not mechanized enough, or not big enough. So why are they losing their land and
moving to the city to become wageslaves for some megacorp?
      In the US, it's been the swindle worked on them by the chem salesmen, the
gov't, and the banks -- non of which the Amish have any truck with, so they do
okay. In Latin America we see them primarily being kicked off their land by
"paramilitarys" usually in the pay of big ranchers and/or megacorp argribiz,
and sometimes by the army. Maybe kicked off is too strong -- frightened off by
all the rapes and murders and beatings, or, with the army, "relocated" to make
them "safe" from the guerillas (and to stop them from feeding the guerillas).
Remember -- we participated in this in Viet Nam? Our troops moved the peasants
off becuase it was "Viet Cong" territory, into camps where they could be
controlled -- and incidently provide cheap labor for some industry or other.
    Often, when the peasant tries to return to his land, he finds that the
local courthouse has been burned and all the records of ownership lost. In Viet
Nam, I personally know troops who killed villagers when they returned from
relocation camps. Not the first time, not the second time, but the third time
-- "Fuck it, we told them not to come back, they musta been Cong".  The same
thing happens all over Central and South America.
        Yes, economics is part of the picture, but not in the way you are
putting forth. It's not free trade -- it's fascism.
        Someone else said they need to just grow a different crop, and
obviously some are doing that -- coca and marijuana, and opium, and that's a
good thing, and many of them at least in some areas are getting together and
getting armed, and that's a good thing too. And maybe they'll survive.
      But anyway, these simplistic little arguements that this is all just a
matter of them not being competitive is pure bullshit. By all of those same
standards, the Amish are clearly not competitive in the current US
agri-climate, but for some strange reason they seem to be doing the best of any
farmers in the country and debt free.
      Where you *do* see peasants going off to the city to make the big bucks
is all the Mexican illegals who come across the border to work here. And then
you find too that a great many of them work for awhile and then go back home to
build a new house, buy a little land, etc. And that's great, that's the way it
should be, not run off by paramilitarys to live in some cardboard box jungle in
the city and become a wageslave in a sweatshop.

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver at cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html





From xeni at xeni.net  Mon Oct 22 19:44:48 2001
From: xeni at xeni.net (Xeni Jardin)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 19:44:48 -0700
Subject: Disney's SSSCA psy-ops: "EZ Jackster"
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011022175544.00835dd0@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: 


> In the next episode, Osama bin Laden makes a cameo, on Jackster's side
> of course. 

Right. But in next week's episode, they rename it "Anthraxster." 

XJ




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Mon Oct 22 19:54:03 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 19:54:03 -0700
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011022140918.0082ad80@pop.sprynet.com>
References:  
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011022184437.03608610@idiom.com>


At 02:09 PM 10/22/2001 -0700, David Honig wrote:
>At 11:09 PM 10/22/01 +0300, Sampo Syreeni wrote:
> >On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Tim May wrote:
> >>"Sure, unions are good" is not at all obvious to me. Why do you claim this?
> >When they're not given special privileges, they are a useful tool for
> >market awareness and employee side organization.
>
>Sure.  But unions work to make membership *compulsory*.  They have
>other legal privledges.
>....
>UC grad students (TAs) are Teamsters, members of AFL-CIO.  Seriously.
>Obligatorily.  No choice.

My brother was a Teamster once, when he had a job in a warehouse.
He decided that if he was going to have to pay union dues,
he was going to work towards making the union local have some
actual control over where the political-contribution part of the dues went
instead of letting the Teamsters national bosses control it.
(Do not taunt Happy Fun Teamster!  He had a good time messing with them...)


I'm strongly opposed to laws requiring companies to deal with unions,
but also to right-to-work laws that forbid companies from doing
exclusive deals with unions, except insofar as they're counteracting
federal mandatory-union laws.  After growing up watching Philadelphia TV,
it took me a long time to be willing to view unions as anything other
than the violent thugs who kept burning down construction sites
and beating non-union workers and excluding incorrect racial groups
and helping Mafiosi shake down businesses, though some of the businesses
also helped Mafiosi shake down unions and hired their own goons
(both blue-suited and free-market) to beat up union members as well -
government and Pinkerton thugs have been just as violent and murderous,
particularly in the coal mine strikes and northwestern lumber strikes,
and the government has occasionally provided National Guard strikebreakers
to do scab labor as well as to beat up strikers, which is
inappropriate in a free market.

Politics aside, though, I've dealt with construction unions and
communications workers unions, and
sometimes unions have been able to provide good service both for
their members and for companies that hire them -
you can go to the appropriate union hall and get well-trained workers
to do the projects you need, and they provide workers with a certain
amount of mutual insurance, often including medical and pension benefits.
It's not that much different than what many of the Silicon Valley
technical body-shops provide, except that the internal dispute-resolution
methods are much more strictly seniority-based than competence-based,
and it's more collectivist than individualist, but that's not as
inappropriate as you'd think for industrial-age businesses that
need large groups of workers for mass-production work rather than
individual artisans.

Business hiring is a process of negotiation in a market,
in which all sides are trying to maximize their return,
just as buying and selling are.
Capitalists are out to make money, and so are workers,
and if forming a union is an effective negotiating tool
for the workers to get more of the pie than they'd get individually,
then I wish them good luck, just as if forming partnerships
or other kinds of business alliances are an effective business tool
for business owners, I wish them good luck too -
as long as they stick to moral methods, rather than
threatening violence against strikebreakers or strikers
or hiring politicians to give them an unfair advantage.

Employee Stock Ownership Plans have also been an effective method
of aligning the interests of unions and companies -
they tend to encourage cooperation by leading both sides to
recognize their mutual intersts.  Of course, when you start
giving workers stock, and telling them they're "empowered",
you find they not only care about the company's success,
they really lose patience for upper-management cluelessness,
and in a unionized company, sometimes this is more visible to
clueless upper managers than in a non-unionized company
where the pointy-haired ones can ignore their "empowered" workers.

Collectivist anti-management rhetoric, greedy union bosses,
and various other cluelessness and abuses by unions sometimes
cause employers to go broke or generally keep the pie smaller
than if they were willing to share the wealth and do the
win-win strategy of growing their market or at least their market share,
and eventually Darwin will get those people; same holds true for
greedy, stupid, and short-sighted business-owners or managers.
Unfortunately, this often turns into a lose-lose situation,
especially when organizational conflict causes a business to be
too inflexible to adapt to changing market conditions.

Back when part of the company I was in had some threat of becoming
unionized, some of my co-workers joked about how we ought to
respond by forming a Wobbly local, and run it against the CWA/IBEW/etc.
The IWW may have a bunch of economically clueless class-warfare rhetoric
about the worker class never having common interests with the boss class,
but they can be pretty individualist and they certainly don't
put up with greedy union bosses trying to push them around.
(One guy from another union referred to them as the "I Won't Work" society.)
They do have an unfortunate history of violence as well,
but hey, if we've got to be part of One Big Union,
might as well have it be One Big Highly Disorganized Union,
and it seems to really torque off the Teamsters.




From drevil at sidereal.kz  Mon Oct 22 13:00:33 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil)
Date: 22 Oct 2001 20:00:33 -0000
Subject: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)
In-Reply-To:  (message
  from Tim May on Sat, 20 Oct 2001 19:32:07 -0700)
References: 
Message-ID: <20011022200033.25531.qmail@sidereal.kz>


> It's often the fucking Jews--Feinstein, Feingold, Lieberman, 
> Ellison--who slavishly imitate the Nazis. How ironic to see Larry 
> Ellison pushing the "Papers, please, macht schnell!" Orwellian nightmare.

That is a good observation, and something which I'll never
understand.  How can they want to recreate the conditions that lead to
their families being killed just a couple of generations ago?  How
could a Jew possibly support gun control?




From drevil at sidereal.kz  Mon Oct 22 13:19:21 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil)
Date: 22 Oct 2001 20:19:21 -0000
Subject: Why Plan-9?
In-Reply-To: 
	(message from Sunder on Sun, 21 Oct 2001 09:14:11 -0400 (edt))
References: 
Message-ID: <20011022201921.10201.qmail@sidereal.kz>


> Why Plan-9?  I'd say go with OpenBSD. :)  Built in crypto, built in
> firewall, secure on installation without you needing to tweak stuff.  Hell
> you can even tell it to encrypt swap pages.

"Built-in crypto" is a big overstatement for OpenBSD.  Unfortunately,
Win 2000 has more built-in crypto than OpenBSD does.  Hint: Try to
create an encrypted FS on OpenBSD.  Now try on Windows 2000.




From drevil at sidereal.kz  Mon Oct 22 13:36:02 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil)
Date: 22 Oct 2001 20:36:02 -0000
Subject: Why Plan-9?
In-Reply-To: 
	(message from Eugene Leitl on Mon, 22 Oct 2001 22:34:07 +0200 (MET
	DST))
References: 
Message-ID: <20011022203602.17079.qmail@sidereal.kz>


> > "Built-in crypto" is a big overstatement for OpenBSD.  Unfortunately,
> > Win 2000 has more built-in crypto than OpenBSD does.  Hint: Try to
> > create an encrypted FS on OpenBSD.  Now try on Windows 2000.
> 
> You trust Win2k's encryption? Are you CRAZY?

No and no.

> You're trusting a closed source product to do what it advertizes to do,
> every time? And does do encrypt the swap, does it? Excuse me -- professes
> to do.

I didn't say I trust it.  I just said it's there, and it isn't there
in OpenBSD.  Why doesn't OpenBSD support such a basic thing as an
encrypted FS?  There's encryption built-in everywhere else except the
one place which makes all the difference if the machine itself is
stolen.

I think there are Two Great Encryption Tabboos: Encrypted voice and
encrypted FS.  I would like to see OpenBSD support the encrypted FS in
its default kernel, thus making it the first OS with such a feature (I
don't count hacks such as loopback FS).

> Thanks for wetting my keyboard with beer via nasal passage.

Beer is precious.  Don't waste it on your keyboard.




From tcmay at got.net  Mon Oct 22 20:50:01 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 20:50:01 -0700
Subject: FBI considers torture as suspects stay silent
In-Reply-To: <20011022223335.A20951@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <08E9EFC6-C769-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Monday, October 22, 2001, at 07:33 PM, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 09:13:51PM -0500, measl at mfn.org wrote:
>> It seems that in todays hyper-"patriotic" environment, this is would be
>> not only an "accepted practice", but even a _preferred_ one by many
>> Amerikans :-(
>
> Yep. It's going to be a hard political sell to insist that yes, this
> indicted hijacker who was caught trying to bring down another plane
> and was captured with detailed plans of a planned nuclear bomb attack
> in the next three hours shouldn't be, um, strongly encouraged to turn
> over the passphrase to "nuke-location-gps-coordinates.txt.gpg"
>

Yes, but this is one of those manufactured, utterly implausible 
situations. I cannot think of a single instance where a suspect had this 
kind of knowledge, with this kind of stakes, and with this kind of "next 
three hours" timetable. Even relaxing each item by a factor of 10...I 
can't think of any such examples.

However, I _can_ think of cases where cops believed a suspect knew the 
location of a kidnapped child, even someone buried alive a la some of 
the famous kidnaps of the past. Should torture be used in cases like 
this? The Israelis routinely torture suspects, as news articles over the 
past dozen years have reported (confirmed by Israeli intelligence on "60 
Minutes"). Of course, this might have something to do with their 
upcoming problems.

Given that the scenario Declan describes is unlikely, how might torture 
or drugs be used? To go after organized crime, obviously. And drug 
dealers. And money launderers. And pedophiles.

"But if it helps to catch just one terrorist!"

If the U.S. abandons the standard that no person shall be compelled to 
be a witness against himself--something the "truth serum" drugging 
option would of course imply just as surely as torture would--the end 
times will be upon us.

--Tim May, Corralitos, California
Quote of the Month: "It is said that there are no atheists in foxholes; 
perhaps there are no true libertarians in times of terrorist attacks." 
--Cathy Young, "Reason Magazine," both enemies of liberty.




From honig at sprynet.com  Mon Oct 22 20:51:56 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 20:51:56 -0700
Subject: FBI considers torture as suspects stay silent
In-Reply-To: <005701c15b67$15c4c260$03d36b3f@pacer.com>
References: <72a787729e6e65b8169aff017d3bdb2d@mixmaster.nullify.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011022205156.00836100@pop.sprynet.com>


At 09:04 PM 10/22/01 -0500, Jon Beets wrote:
>This appears total BS to me... While I don't doubt some agents do at times
>conduct their own idea of interrogation I sincerely doubt that the FBI as a
>whole would be considering this...
>
>Jon Beets
>

"all the normalities of the social contract are  
abandoned in war"    Jack Valenti MPAA pres, in LATimes on
Kerry's war crimes




From Jon.Beets at pacer.com  Mon Oct 22 19:04:44 2001
From: Jon.Beets at pacer.com (Jon Beets)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 21:04:44 -0500
Subject: FBI considers torture as suspects stay silent
References: <72a787729e6e65b8169aff017d3bdb2d@mixmaster.nullify.org>
Message-ID: <005701c15b67$15c4c260$03d36b3f@pacer.com>


This appears total BS to me... While I don't doubt some agents do at times
conduct their own idea of interrogation I sincerely doubt that the FBI as a
whole would be considering this...

Jon Beets


----- Original Message -----
From: "Incognito Innominatus" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2001 10:02 PM
Subject: FBI considers torture as suspects stay silent


> FBI considers torture as suspects stay silent
> http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2001350021-2001364909,00.html
>
> AMERICAN investigators are considering resorting to harsher interrogation
techniques, including torture, after facing a wall of silence from jailed
suspected members of Osama bin Ladens al-Qaeda network, according to a
report yesterday.
> More than 150 people who were picked up after September 11 remain in
custody, with four men the focus of particularly intense scrutiny. But
investigators have found the usual methods have failed to persuade any of
them to talk.
> Options being weighed include truth drugs, pressure tactics and
extraditing the suspects to countries whose security services are more used
to employing a heavy-handed approach during interrogations.
> Were into this thing for 35 days and nobody is talking. Frustration has
begun to appear, a senior FBI official told The Washington Post.
> Under US law, evidence extracted using physical pressure or torture is
inadmissible in court and interrogators could also face criminal charges for
employing such methods. However, investigators suggested that the time might
soon come when a truth serum, such as sodium pentothal, would be deemed an
acceptable tool for interrogators.
> The public pressure for results in the war on terrorism might also
persuade the FBI to encourage the countries of suspects to seek their
extradition, in the knowledge that they could be given a much rougher
reception in jails back home.
> One of the four key suspects is Zacarias Moussaoui, a French Moroccan,
suspected of being a twentieth hijacker who failed to make it on board the
plane that crashed in Pennsylvania. Moussaoui was detained after he acted
suspiciously at a Minnesota flying school, requesting lessons in how to
steer a plane but not how to take off or land. Both Morocco and France are
regarded as having harsher interrogation methods than the United States.
> The investigators have been disappointed that the usual incentives to
break suspects, such as promises of shorter sentences, money, jobs and new
lives in the witness protection programme, have failed to break the silence.
> We are known for humanitarian treatment, so basically we are stuck.
Usually there is some incentive, some angle to play, what you can do for
them. But it could get to that spot where we could go to pressure . . .
where we dont have a choice, and we are probably getting there, an FBI
agent involved in the investigation told the paper.
> The other key suspects being held in New York are Mohammed Jaweed Azmath
and Ayub Ali Khan, Indians who were caught the day after the attacks
travelling with false passports, craft knives such as those used in the
hijackings and hair dye. Nabil Almarabh, a Boston taxi driver alleged to
have links to al-Qaeda, is also being held. Some legal experts believe that
the US Supreme Court, which has a conservative tilt, might be prepared to
support curtailing the civil liberties of prisoners in terrorism cases.
> However, a warning that torture should be avoided came from Robert
Blitzer, a former head of the FBIs counter-terrorism section. He said that
the practice goes against every grain in my body. Chances are you are going
to get the wrong person and risk damage or killing them.
> In all, about 800 people have been rounded up since the attacks, most of
whom are expected to be found to be innocent. Investigators believe there
could be hundreds of people linked to al-Qaeda living in the US, and the
Bush Administration has issued a warning that more attacks are probably
being planned.
> Newsweek magazine reports today that Mohammed Atta, the suspected
ringleader who died in the first plane to hit the World Trade Centre, had
been looking into hitting an aircraft carrier. Investigators retracing his
movements found that he visited the huge US Navy base at Norfolk, Virginia,
in February and April this year.




From measl at mfn.org  Mon Oct 22 19:07:44 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 21:07:44 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Farm Out! (was Re: Retribution not enough)
In-Reply-To: <8F4408B7-C758-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Tim May wrote:

> You must be the only remaining user of NS (for either the Mac or 
> Windows). Everyone I know gave up on NS 5 and moved on to IE. It's not 
> perfect, but it's not buggy like "AOLscape" is.
> 
> IE 5.1 is pretty good on OS X, as is OmniWeb.

Try Opera: Fast, free if you don't mind banners (and for a small license
fee, no banners at all), and *totally* customizable (right down to custom
built binaries!).

Available for Micro$loth, Beos, Linux, Slowlaris, OS/2, QNX - just about
everything except MVS and BSD :-(

http://www.opera.com

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

* Disclaimer: I have absolutely no relation to these guys in any way. *




From honig at sprynet.com  Mon Oct 22 21:09:08 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 21:09:08 -0700
Subject: FBI considers torture as suspects stay silent
In-Reply-To: <20011022223335.A20951@cluebot.com>
References: 
 <005701c15b67$15c4c260$03d36b3f@pacer.com>
 
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011022210908.0083bcb0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 10:33 PM 10/22/01 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 09:13:51PM -0500, measl at mfn.org wrote:
>> It seems that in todays hyper-"patriotic" environment, this is would be
>> not only an "accepted practice", but even a _preferred_ one by many
>> Amerikans :-(
>
>Yep. It's going to be a hard political sell to insist that yes, this
>indicted hijacker who was caught trying to bring down another plane
>and was captured with detailed plans of a planned nuclear bomb attack
>in the next three hours shouldn't be, um, strongly encouraged to turn
>over the passphrase to "nuke-location-gps-coordinates.txt.gpg"

Two random late night thoughts: 

1. Since death in combat is far more heroic [1] to these folks than it
is to Americans, the torturers will have to be careful.  Three hours
is not much time to break a person, and cruder torture methods are fatal.

2. Cyanide pills were standard issue for folks dropped behind enemy
lines in WWII (see _Between Silk & Cyanide_).  

[1] Though one wonders whether psyops -mutilation of corpse and cliched pig
games-
would help.

One last random thought: since moslems don't drink, they may not handle their
pentothal too well.  [Na Pentothol is a fast acting barbituate; barbies act
very similarly to ethanol.]  However, those methods aren't too reliable
and again that 3 hours would be a real problem...






 






  







From honig at sprynet.com  Mon Oct 22 21:10:03 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 21:10:03 -0700
Subject: Disney's SSSCA psy-ops: "EZ Jackster"
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011022211003.0083f930@pop.sprynet.com>


At 10:01 PM 10/22/01 -0500, measl at mfn.org wrote:
>No no no...  That's the US Army's "thing":
>
>	"The Army: looking for a few good spores."
>	

They changed that; now its "A Spore of One"





 






  







From measl at mfn.org  Mon Oct 22 19:13:51 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 21:13:51 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: FBI considers torture as suspects stay silent
In-Reply-To: <005701c15b67$15c4c260$03d36b3f@pacer.com>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Jon Beets wrote:

> Subject: CDR: Re:  FBI considers torture as suspects stay silent
> 
> This appears total BS to me... While I don't doubt some agents do at times
> conduct their own idea of interrogation I sincerely doubt that the FBI as a
> whole would be considering this...
> 
> Jon Beets

In all seriousness, why?  

I brought this up for discussion today at lunch, with people who I
expected would downright disbelieve this, not just doubt it, and was very
surprised to hear their reaction, most easily paraphrased as "about time
they got around to it".

It seems that in todays hyper-"patriotic" environment, this is would be
not only an "accepted practice", but even a _preferred_ one by many
Amerikans :-(

--
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From honig at sprynet.com  Mon Oct 22 21:14:08 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 21:14:08 -0700
Subject: Farm Out! (was Re: Retribution not enough)
In-Reply-To: <01ca01c15b72$4471e9c0$0100a8c0@mshome.net>
References: 
 <3BD4644D.95C0AF5D@cybershamanix.com>
 <3BD46A4B.AB07AD02@acmenet.net>
 <3BD47B14.C083DE15@cybershamanix.com>
 <3BD496D8.AEF5EED2@acmenet.net>
 <3BD4A680.31B403@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011022211408.0082d140@pop.sprynet.com>


At 10:24 PM 10/22/01 -0500, Neil Johnson wrote:
>My father in-law makes some extra dough by converting modern  power tools
>(Delta table saws, belt sanders, and lathes) to run of a  central drive
>shaft so the Amish in our area can build furniture.  Evidently it's "kosher"
>to use a centrally located diesel engine (with a battery to start it even!)

He can get a side job pressing elevator buttons on Saturday, when
its not kosher to do so.  In tech kosher places (e.g., Cedar-Sinai MC)
the elevators stop on every floor on Saturday.  I don't make this stuff up.

>Several Amish farms put telephones in their barns for emergency purposes (or
>drive to nearby store to use a phone booth to call relatives, etc.).
>
>So much for being "independent".

Do they avail themselves of modern medicine when they exceed what they can
do with 19th century methods?  [serious question]





 






  







From verba at rol.it  Mon Oct 22 12:17:24 2001
From: verba at rol.it (verba at rol.it)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 21:17:24 +0200
Subject: Verba Volant del 22-10-01
Message-ID: <1003785445@web2bk.logos.it>


Verba Volant del 22-10-01,
Every day a new quotation translated into many languages. 

Logos Translations - www.logostranslations.com 
_________________

Quotation of the day:
Author - 

English - does the death penalty make any sense to those condemned to die?
Italian - ha senso la pena di morte tra condannati a morire?
Spanish - tiene alg�n sentido la pena de muerte para los condenados a morir?
French - quel sens a la peine de mort, pour ceux qui sont condamn�s � mourir?
Portuguese - tem algum sentido a pena de morte, para quem est� condenado a morrer?
Brazilian Portuguese - tem algum sentido a pena de morte, para quem est� condenado a morrer?
German - hat die Todesstrafe irgendeinen Sinn, wo wir doch alle zum Tode verurteilt sind?
Hungarian - hal�lra �t�ltek k�z�tt van �rtelme a hal�lb�ntet�snek?
Finnish - onko kuolemantuomiossa j�rke� kun olemme kaikki tuomittuja kuolemaan?
Catalan - te sentit la pena de mort entre els condemnats a morir?
Croatian - ima li smisla smrtna kazna osudenima na smrt?
Czech - m� pro odsouzen� na smrt trest smrti nejak� smysl?
Dutch - heeft de doodstraf zin voor diegenen die zijn veroordeeld te sterven?
Emiliano-Romagnolo - u'ia bsogn dal soplizi capitel, dintr'al zenti cundaned a la morta?
Latin - num quid significat poena capitis inter damnatos capitis?
Latvian; Lettish - vai naves sods ko nozime tiem, kuri ir soditi ar navi?
Polish - ma sens kara smierci posr�d skazanych na smierc?
Romanian - are oare sens pedeapsa cu moartea printre condamnati la moarte?
Slovak - m� zmysel trest smrti pre ods�den�ch na smrt?
Venetian - ga senso la condana a morte fra condanai a morire?
Sicilian - avi sensu 'a pena di morti ammenzu a cristiani cunnannati a moriri?
Flemish - heeft de doodstraf zin voor diegenen die zijn veroordeeld te sterven?
Ferrarese - v�l dir qu�l la pena ad morte par cundan� a mur�r?
Bolognese - �la un s�ns la p�nna d m�rt, stram�z a d� cundan� a mur�r? 

_________________

All languages, please click on this link
http://www.rol.it/owa-k/press.frasiproc.carica?code=426
_________________

To unsubscribe from Verba Volant, please follow this link:
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and write in the empty field next to unsubscribe the email address that you find after "TO:" in the Verba Volant emails 
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From pam at synapse.com  Mon Oct 22 21:18:24 2001
From: pam at synapse.com (Pam Cholinesterase)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 21:18:24 -0700
Subject: We Won't Have CJ Parker and Richard NIxon To Kick Around 
  AnyMore...
Message-ID: <3BD4EF90.A237EE65@synapse.com>


At 11:32 PM 10/22/01 -0400, Steve Furlong wrote:
>Even if you couldn't shut up, why didn't you use an anonymizer? You
have
>a characteristic writing style, but there are other rambling, obscure
>writers on c-punks and the writing couldn't be positively linked to
you.
>Or, better yet, you could learn to write in a conventional,
>straightforward, clear style and have complete deniability.

He could run himself through the Babelfish (or better, a local version)
 twice but he'd probably lose a lot in translation ---and there's
only one John Young.




From measl at mfn.org  Mon Oct 22 19:29:04 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 21:29:04 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: FBI considers torture as suspects stay silent
In-Reply-To: <20011022223335.A20951@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 09:13:51PM -0500, measl at mfn.org wrote:
> > It seems that in todays hyper-"patriotic" environment, this is would be
> > not only an "accepted practice", but even a _preferred_ one by many
> > Amerikans :-(
> 
> Yep. It's going to be a hard political sell to insist that yes, this
> indicted hijacker who was caught trying to bring down another plane
> and was captured with detailed plans of a planned nuclear bomb attack
> in the next three hours shouldn't be, um, strongly encouraged to turn
> over the passphrase to "nuke-location-gps-coordinates.txt.gpg"

What's _really_ scary is that it's a hard sell for
Osama-bin-College-Student who is caught with nothing more than a parking
ticket and a less-than-American style of clothing.

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From Jonathan at WildcatGolf.com  Mon Oct 22 19:49:49 2001
From: Jonathan at WildcatGolf.com (Jonathan Fateley)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 21:49:49 -0500
Subject: FBI considers torture as suspects stay silent
References: <005701c15b67$15c4c260$03d36b3f@pacer.com>  <20011022223335.A20951@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <004701c15b6d$61f9ac80$6501a8c0@default>


Well hell in those extreme circumstances. But we are hardly at that place
yet.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Declan McCullagh" 
To: 
Cc: 
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 9:33 PM
Subject: CDR: Re: FBI considers torture as suspects stay silent


> On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 09:13:51PM -0500, measl at mfn.org wrote:
> > It seems that in todays hyper-"patriotic" environment, this is would be
> > not only an "accepted practice", but even a _preferred_ one by many
> > Amerikans :-(
>
> Yep. It's going to be a hard political sell to insist that yes, this
> indicted hijacker who was caught trying to bring down another plane
> and was captured with detailed plans of a planned nuclear bomb attack
> in the next three hours shouldn't be, um, strongly encouraged to turn
> over the passphrase to "nuke-location-gps-coordinates.txt.gpg"
>
> -Declan
>




From info at giganetstore.com  Mon Oct 22 13:57:34 2001
From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 21:57:34 +0100
Subject: Este Inverno...
Message-ID: <09e3e34572016a1WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com>

  
Este Inverno aqueça a sua alma...com um bom livro! 
Conheça as mais recentes novidades editoriais que colocamos ao seu
dispôr.
Todas as semanas! 
-----
Osama Bin Laden - A Estratégia do Terror
 
Roland Jacquard é um profundo conhecedor do mundo árabe e do Médio
Oriente, como é ainda director do Observatório Internacional do
Terrorismo. A sua vasta bibliografia é aliás esclarecedora do profundo
conhecimento que tem deste assunto. Tudo aquilo que a comunicação social
tem insinuado acerca das ligações subterrâneas, da organização em rede,
dos grupos que estão a transformar a humanidade em refém da sua
estratégia, é não só confirmado, como largamente ampliado. O diagnóstico
que daqui resulta é profundamente assustador. Mas é ao mesmo tempo um
retrato sereno e objectivo. 
-----
Uma Casa para Mr. Biswas
  
História da luta travada por alguém cuja rebeldia se inspira em forças
ritualísticas de mito e tradição, que é uma análise subtil das situações
coloniais, conta-nos a vida de um homem tranquilo, cujo maior temor era
deixar-se alguma vez arregimentar ou escravizar, mesmo que pelos seus, e
que, bastantes vezes ao longo do romance, não hesitará em opor-se
sozinho àqueles que o cercam. A vitória que ambiciona consiste
simplesmente em libertar Anand, o filho, e em morrer na sua própria
casa... 
-----
Nostradamus e o Séc. XXI
  
Um enorme cometa - que será visível a olho nu - aproxima-se rapidamente
deste cometa, resultando daí a queda de um meteorito no oceano
Atlântico. As consequências serão devastadoras para a humanidade... Pela
primeira vez desde que as quadras de Nostradamus foram escritas, no
século XVI, elas irão ser lidas na sequência narrativa original,
reconstruindo-se a sucessão ordenada dos acontecimentos: a queda do
meteorito, os terramotos e maremotos, o inverno artificial e a terceira
guerra mundial. 
-----
Tão Veloz como o Desejo
 
Júbilo veio ao mundo com um imenso sorriso e o dom de ouvir as palavras
que habitam no coração das pessoas que o rodeiam. Era ainda menino e -
ao servir de intérprete entre a avó, orgulhosa representante do povo
Maia, e a mãe, de língua espanhola - já adoçava as palavras amargas que
ambas trocavam, conseguindo que desse ódio nascesse respeito e amor.
mais novidades »
 
Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site
http:\\www.giganetstore.com  , ir à edição
do seu registo e retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das nossas
promoções e novos serviços
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From piolenc at mozcom.com  Mon Oct 22 06:58:21 2001
From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 21:58:21 +0800
Subject: Retribution not enough
References: 
Message-ID: <3BD425FD.7C3C64CE@mozcom.com>




Jim Choate wrote:

> The real question, one that is probably unanswerable, is who gets to
> decide what is 'fair'. Not only is there no 'fair' way to decide, but
> there's no one universal definition of 'fair'.

Elementary - fair is whatever the parties in interest agree to. Period. 

I don't know about Central or South America, but nobody has to send out
armed goons to recruit people to work in offshore plants here in the
Philippines.

Marc de Piolenc
Iligan




From measl at mfn.org  Mon Oct 22 20:01:46 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 22:01:46 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Disney's SSSCA psy-ops: "EZ Jackster"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Xeni Jardin wrote:

> > In the next episode, Osama bin Laden makes a cameo, on Jackster's side
> > of course. 
> 
> Right. But in next week's episode, they rename it "Anthraxster." 

No no no...  That's the US Army's "thing":

	"The Army: looking for a few good spores."
	
-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Oct 22 20:02:38 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 22:02:38 -0500
Subject: Ananova - US researchers discover artificial sperm
Message-ID: <3BD4DDCE.7945117B@ssz.com>


http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_430602.html?menu=news.latestheadlines
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From KSL at zenny.com  Mon Oct 22 20:18:07 2001
From: KSL at zenny.com (Zenny K. Sadlon)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 22:18:07 -0500
Subject: THE "CHICAGO" VERSION OF "SVEJK" RULES!
Message-ID: <00ea01c15b71$7a1f7ac0$ebccd6d8@www.zenny.com>

The Oregonian, December 24, 2000 

Sadlon and Joyce's new translation is so joyful and audacious in its headlong hurtle through Hasek's story that it deserves to become the standard English version. 
ISBN: 1585004286 distributed by Ingram
Click www.zenny.com
or
the cover art of the paperback  

to read the introduction, 1st chapter, and much more . . .
    The critically acclaimed new translation of the most famous, popular, and reviled Czech book, found on many 100 Best Books of the 20th Century lists, including that of the New York Public Library, is 

    Jaroslav Hašek's 

    The Fateful Adventures of the Good Soldier Švejk During the World War, Book One. 

    The Chicago Tribune, August 9, 2000 
    'Svejk,' a biting anti-war tale of a survival-bent Everyman, gets an English retelling that captures the charm of the original Czech novel. 

    isyndicate.com, July 19, 2000 
    The resurrection of the Good Soldier Svejk. New translation brings classic comedy to life. . . the diction . . . flows naturally . . . is a "must read". 

                                                                    January 2, 2001 
    "I must say that I am ecstatic about your new translation of Švejk. I was entertained in the same degree (and in the same spots) as by the Czech original. In addition, this new translation also preserves the rhythm of the sentences, their overall sense and spirit.

    That is all which the old translation lacks in a catastrophic measure. The old translation is awkward to a, as we say in Czech, "break-neck" degree, unreadable, and for the common reader hard to understand. I think that the old translation should have never appeared in the book marketplace - alas, it happened.

    As a native Czech I can tell you that the author of the previous translation (perhaps due to his intellectualism) did not get what Hašek’s novel is about at all. His language is the language of high society evening parties - while Hašek’s Švejk speaks with the tongue of public houses in the fourth [i.e., grade D, the cheapest] price category.

    I am convinced that thanks to this new translation the resurrection and the rediscovery of this never-to-die book for and by millions and millions of readers in Anglophone countries is taking place indeed."

Zdenek Smrcka, M.D.
Information specialist / Librarian
Medical Library and Information Department,
2nd Medical School,
Charles University Praha, Czech Republic

Zenny K. Sadlon
KSL at zenny.com
Get  "svejked" at www.zenny.com !
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From njohnsn at IowaTelecom.net  Mon Oct 22 20:24:47 2001
From: njohnsn at IowaTelecom.net (Neil Johnson)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 22:24:47 -0500
Subject: Farm Out! (was Re: Retribution not enough)
References:   <3BD4644D.95C0AF5D@cybershamanix.com> <3BD46A4B.AB07AD02@acmenet.net>  <3BD47B14.C083DE15@cybershamanix.com> <3BD496D8.AEF5EED2@acmenet.net> <3BD4A680.31B403@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <01ca01c15b72$4471e9c0$0100a8c0@mshome.net>


My father in-law makes some extra dough by converting modern  power tools
(Delta table saws, belt sanders, and lathes) to run of a  central drive
shaft so the Amish in our area can build furniture.  Evidently it's "kosher"
to use a centrally located diesel engine (with a battery to start it even!)
to turn line shafts, belts, and pulleys to transmit power instead of wires.
They even use pre-manufactured drawer  guides and other hardware in their
furniture (and air compressor powered sprayers to apply stain and varnish).

Several Amish farms put telephones in their barns for emergency purposes (or
drive to nearby store to use a phone booth to call relatives, etc.).

So much for being "independent".




----- Original Message -----
From: "Harmon Seaver" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 6:07 PM
Subject: Re: Farm Out! (was Re: Retribution not enough)


> Steve Furlong wrote:
>
> > Your theory about the ag schools and county agents and such may be
> > right; I don't know enough to comment on them.
> >
>
>       The best example I can give is the Amish. They *don't* send their
sons to ag
> school (don't even educate them past 7th grade actually) and don't listen
to the
> extension agents, and make money with small, totally old fashioned,
organic farms. No
> tractors, horses to plow with -- and make enough that when each son gets
married, they
> buy him a farm with cash.
> They don't do the factory farm trip, don't get look for gov't handouts
(which is what
> *all* the big, agri-biz farms do), and compete very well.
>
>
> --
> Harmon Seaver, MLIS
> CyberShamanix
> Work 920-203-9633
> Home 920-233-5820
> hseaver at cybershamanix.com
> http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html




From njohnsn at IowaTelecom.net  Mon Oct 22 20:27:08 2001
From: njohnsn at IowaTelecom.net (Neil Johnson)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 22:27:08 -0500
Subject: Dam security 
Message-ID: <01d601c15b72$98be6b20$0100a8c0@mshome.net>


I wonder what kind of security they have at the Old River Control Structure
(ORCS) ?

Background:

The ORCS was built by the Corps in the 1960's to prevent the Mississippi
from changing its path from the route that  goes through
New Orleans to a more direct route via the Atchafalaya River ( a route that
is 170 miles shorter than it's current path). If the river did
change course, It would destroy a large wildlife sanctuary and would
eventually leave New Orleans and Baton Rouge without fresh water,
not to mention economic impact it would have.

http://www.mvn.usace.army.mil/pao/oldriver/course.htm

It was almost destroyed during the massive floods of 1973 by scouring
(basically the the river undermining the foundation of the structure).

http://www.mvn.usace.army.mil/pao/oldriver/flood1973.htm

The Corp has since reinforced the structure and built a additional
structures to control the flow.

http://www.mvn.usace.army.mil/pao/oldriver/repairs.htm

See:
http://www.mvn.usace.army.mil/pao/oldriver/oldriver.htm

-
Neil M. Johnson
mailto:njohnsn at iowatelecom.net




From declan at well.com  Mon Oct 22 19:33:36 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 22:33:36 -0400
Subject: FBI considers torture as suspects stay silent
In-Reply-To: ; from measl@mfn.org on Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 09:13:51PM -0500
References: <005701c15b67$15c4c260$03d36b3f@pacer.com> 
Message-ID: <20011022223335.A20951@cluebot.com>


On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 09:13:51PM -0500, measl at mfn.org wrote:
> It seems that in todays hyper-"patriotic" environment, this is would be
> not only an "accepted practice", but even a _preferred_ one by many
> Amerikans :-(

Yep. It's going to be a hard political sell to insist that yes, this
indicted hijacker who was caught trying to bring down another plane
and was captured with detailed plans of a planned nuclear bomb attack
in the next three hours shouldn't be, um, strongly encouraged to turn
over the passphrase to "nuke-location-gps-coordinates.txt.gpg"

-Declan




From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Mon Oct 22 13:34:07 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 22:34:07 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Why Plan-9?
In-Reply-To: <20011022201921.10201.qmail@sidereal.kz>
Message-ID: 


On 22 Oct 2001, Dr. Evil wrote:

> "Built-in crypto" is a big overstatement for OpenBSD.  Unfortunately,
> Win 2000 has more built-in crypto than OpenBSD does.  Hint: Try to
> create an encrypted FS on OpenBSD.  Now try on Windows 2000.

You trust Win2k's encryption? Are you CRAZY?

You're trusting a closed source product to do what it advertizes to do,
every time? And does do encrypt the swap, does it? Excuse me -- professes
to do.

Thanks for wetting my keyboard with beer via nasal passage.




From nobody at hyperreal.pl  Mon Oct 22 16:00:53 2001
From: nobody at hyperreal.pl (Anonymous)
Date: 22 Oct 2001 23:00:53 -0000
Subject: Conman, quantum entaglement and no cat
Message-ID: 


http://www.thescotsman.co.uk/text_only.cfm?id=116404


Magicians lottery list accurate

THE American illusionist David Copperfield said yesterday he has been
bombarded by requests for tips on the winning numbers in Germanys
national lottery on Saturday night - numbers he said he predicted seven
months ago.

Copperfield wrote down his forecast on 17 February for the multi-million
mark lottery drawing due on 13 October. The prediction was sealed by a
notary and locked in a box that was kept under round-the-clock
surveillance.

An hour after the winning numbers were drawn, the box was opened on a
live television broadcast and the numbers matched the winning draw: 2,
9, 10, 15, 25, 38 and 4.

"It wasnt a trick," Copperfield told Bild am Sonntag newspaper after
the performance on the popular Wanna Bet? show on ZDF television. "It
was more an experiment and mental exercise. We only use about 10 per
cent of our brain capacity."

Copperfield said he is not tempted to play the lottery himself because
he would not be able to "see" the numbers. "I used to try it out by
giving friends the numbers, but then it would never work," he said. "If
the numbers arent kept secret, it doesnt work."

Copperfield said hundreds of people had written him since February
begging him for tips on what numbers to pick. "Hundreds of emails, so
many letters and requests from people in despair. " 



But can he do RSA keys ?

If he can, that would mean that they are truly random.

If he can't they are not.

This test should become a part of Diehard.




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Mon Oct 22 20:02:03 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 23:02:03 -0400
Subject: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)
References: 
Message-ID: <3BD4DDAB.59A7D300@acmenet.net>


Tim May wrote:
> 
> On Monday, October 22, 2001, at 02:04 PM, Steve Furlong wrote:
> 
> > "Dr. Evil" wrote:
> >>
> >>> It's often the fucking Jews--Feinstein, Feingold, Lieberman,
> >>> Ellison--who slavishly imitate the Nazis. How ironic to see Larry
> >>> Ellison pushing the "Papers, please, macht schnell!" Orwellian
> >>> nightmare.
> >>
> >> That is a good observation, and something which I'll never
> >> understand.  How can they want to recreate the conditions that lead to
> >> their families being killed just a couple of generations ago?  How
> >> could a Jew possibly support gun control?
> >
> > 1. Those who do not learn from history are doomed to be dumbasses.
> >
> > 2. They think they'll be in charge this time.
> 
> America's Jews who are in politics are the new "trustys" (or is it
> "trustees"?).
...
> Feinstein, Schumer, Lieberman, all of the despicable Jews pushing police
> state measures...they hope that if they lick Big Brother's boot they'll
> be safe.

"Trustees".

I disagree. Feinstein et al aren't cooperating with Big Brother in hopes
of better treatment. They _are_ Big Brother.

But I don't think this is because they are Jews. There are statists of
every religion.

-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From measl at mfn.org  Mon Oct 22 21:05:36 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 23:05:36 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: FBI considers torture as suspects stay silent
In-Reply-To: <08E9EFC6-C769-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Tim May wrote:

> If the U.S. abandons the standard that no person shall be compelled to 
> be a witness against himself--something the "truth serum" drugging 
> option would of course imply just as surely as torture would--the end 
> times will be upon us.

I submit that this has already been long abandoned, however, I am more
interested at the moment in the "truth serum" premise.  My understanding
(from questioning on this topic in the distant past with an
MD/"shrink") is that the sodium thiopental/pentobarbital/etc. "truth
serum" is an urban legend.  He was quite specific that the drug was a
definite aid to relaxing patients, and "allowing" them to go where they
_wanted_ to (psychiatrically speaking) with much less "work", but that
"pentothal interviews" were very much not free-will altering devices.

At the risk of being told to go google (which I guess I'll do in a
moment), does anyone have any information either contrary to this, or
possibly of another "truth serum" that would fit the stated bill?  

I really suspect this truth serum business is just psywar in action... 

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From decoy at iki.fi  Mon Oct 22 13:09:25 2001
From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 23:09:25 +0300 (EEST)
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Tim May wrote:

>"Sure, unions are good" is not at all obvious to me. Why do you claim
>this?

When they're not given special privileges, they are a useful tool for
market awareness and employee side organization. Corporations can be seen
as the employer side one -- if there's no need to organize, why should
corporations exceed a single employee in size?

>Most labor unions are simply rent-seeking clubs designed to cement the
>status quo.

In a free market, they would be an employee side monopoly at best. We all
know how stable monopolies are.

>Teacher's unions in the U.S. are a prime example: once the union got
>powerful enough, it fought for a tenure-type system which made it nearly
>impossible to remove those who taught poorly and to reward those who
>taught especially well.

The precise same argument can be used in an argument for monopoly control.
Or the coerced breakup of any sufficient large corporation. You for that?

>I've never belonged to a labor union of any kind, and they are
>essentially absent from the chip and computer industries.

Me neither. Not going to, either. That does not mean that unions couldn't
be good for other people.

>From what I have seen, labor unions are a collectivist evil.

Well, in a state where they're not hiding behind the government, that's
something you'll just have to get used to. They've earned killing? Unions
can play that game too, I hear.

Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - mailto:decoy at iki.fi, tel:+358-50-5756111
student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front
openpgp: 050985C2/025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Mon Oct 22 20:12:33 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 23:12:33 -0400
Subject: Ananova - US researchers discover artificial sperm
References: <3BD4DDCE.7945117B@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3BD4E021.EFEFE74F@acmenet.net>


Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_430602.html?menu=news.latestheadlines

Well, shit, don't let Andrea Dworkin or Nadine Strossen find out, or
we're all done for!

-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Mon Oct 22 20:15:14 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 23:15:14 -0400
Subject: Disney's SSSCA psy-ops: "EZ Jackster"
References: 
Message-ID: <3BD4E0C2.4E1CF4B4@acmenet.net>


measl at mfn.org wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Xeni Jardin wrote:
> 
> > > In the next episode, Osama bin Laden makes a cameo, on Jackster's side
> > > of course.
> >
> > Right. But in next week's episode, they rename it "Anthraxster."
> 
> No no no...  That's the US Army's "thing":
> 
>         "The Army: looking for a few good spores."

Gatorthrax: Is it in you?

-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From decoy at iki.fi  Mon Oct 22 13:15:39 2001
From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 23:15:39 +0300 (EEST)
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: <0011DFA8-C712-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: 


On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Tim May wrote:

>The Econ prize was only established in the 70s, and now the prize
>committee is reaching down deeper into the ranks.

A fun story I heard: a member of the Swedish Academy is said to have
resigned over Milton Friedman getting a Nobel. The reason: Friedman's
theory "exists only to justify the exploitation of developing countries".

Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - mailto:decoy at iki.fi, tel:+358-50-5756111
student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front
openpgp: 050985C2/025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2




From sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com  Mon Oct 22 23:15:47 2001
From: sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com (sonofgomez709)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 23:15:47 -0700
Subject: Fair Warning
Message-ID: <007001c15b8a$29961280$3c0da2cd@vaio>

The LEA's who accompanied my Parole Officer on her visit
to my residence today performed an illegal search of the
room of another resident of the house in which I live.
Given the fact that the visit was a result of LEA monitoring
of the CPUNX list, list members should be aware that
their participation in the list may expose them to similar
illegal intrusions by government agents.

However, those with the financial resources to defend their
constitutional rights and civil liberties probably do not need
to be overly worried, since, in all likelihood, the LEA's illegal
trampling on my neighbor's constitutional rights was simply
a matter of their perception that somebody living in a 
low-rent shithole would not be in a position to cause them
any grief over their illegal actions.

Have A Nazi Day,
CJ Parker 
http://profiles.yahoo.com/sonofgomez709
http://www.technopagan.org/politics/xenix/
http://members.w-link.net/~sog/INDEX.HTM
http://jya.com/cejfiles.htm

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From tcmay at got.net  Mon Oct 22 23:23:34 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 23:23:34 -0700
Subject: Farm Out! (was Re: Retribution not enough)
In-Reply-To: <3BD5088B.A3FA2E9A@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <7C992CE9-C77E-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Monday, October 22, 2001, at 11:05 PM, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>      Ish! I'm getting bummed with NS, but wouldn't use IE on a bet. Why 
> use a
> virus magnet?

The virii are typically executables for x86/Windows machines, not Macs. 
You said you were using a Mac, so why do you think IE for the Mac 
exposes you to virii?



>  But then, I don't use any other M$ product either, it's all
> third rate.

Religious nonsense. I tend to avoid MS products because I can get good 
alternatives for very little money, but few would call Microsoft Office 
"third rate." I've seen the version for OS X and it looks very good. 
Maybe "1.5" rate, but not second rate and surely not third rate.

--Tim May
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a 
monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also 
into you." -- Nietzsche




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Mon Oct 22 20:32:19 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 23:32:19 -0400
Subject: eWe Won't Have CJ Parker and Richard NIxon To Kick Around
  AnyMore...
References: <002601c15b63$09069200$5f0da2cd@vaio>
Message-ID: <3BD4E4C3.3412AAAC@acmenet.net>


sonofgomez709 wrote:

> So, the GoodNews is that I can probably avoid being
> sent back to the BOP to be Tortured4BeingDisAbled
> simply by ShuttingTheFuckUp!
> The BadNews, OfCourseOfCourse [TM], is that I have thus
> far proved incapable of doing so,

I can't sympathise much on this basis. A family member, a retired cop
and the family shame, confirmed what I had suspected: that most people
in jail are there because they couldn't keep their mouths shut --- on
the street, in the police station, in court. And many who are denied
parole or who have it revoked couldn't keep their mouths shut in jail.

Even if you couldn't shut up, why didn't you use an anonymizer? You have
a characteristic writing style, but there are other rambling, obscure
writers on c-punks and the writing couldn't be positively linked to you.
Or, better yet, you could learn to write in a conventional,
straightforward, clear style and have complete deniability.


-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From drevil at sidereal.kz  Mon Oct 22 16:34:27 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil)
Date: 22 Oct 2001 23:34:27 -0000
Subject: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011022140608.00830460@pop.sprynet.com> (message
  from David Honig on Mon, 22 Oct 2001 14:06:08 -0700)
References: 
  
  <3.0.6.32.20011022140608.00830460@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <20011022233427.31302.qmail@sidereal.kz>


> >That is a good observation, and something which I'll never
> >understand.  How can they want to recreate the conditions that lead to
> >their families being killed just a couple of generations ago?  How
> >could a Jew possibly support gun control?
> 
> Trust the State more than the People.  

What they don't understand is that the State _is_ people.  They're
people, some of whom are good, some are bad, some are smart, some are
dumb, most are just ordinary people but a very tiny number are smart,
competent and truly evil.  On the whole, the people who are in the
Government of the US are not much different from the rest of the
people in the US.  I just can't understand why someone would want
someone else to have power of life and death over him.  In life I have
learned that the only person who I can absolutely rely on to look
after my interests is me.  Isn't this obvious?

Nevermind, of course it's obvious, but it's also scary ("you mean, I
have to be ready to defend myself?").




From decoy at iki.fi  Mon Oct 22 13:35:13 2001
From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 23:35:13 +0300 (EEST)
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: <3BD4644D.95C0AF5D@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: 


On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote:

>Of course you're ignoring the fact that sometimes the reason that they
>are "starving on their own retched little plots of land." is because of
>NAFTA and huge multinational corporations importing so much US factory
>farmed corn and other ag products into that country that they can't
>compete. We've been thru this discussion before.

If this applies throughout the whole economy (i.e. the natives can't
compete with any product at all), you'll have a trade deficit and sooner
or later the currency rate will go down. That'll end the imports and even
out the difference in efficiency.

In the absence of a currency area boundary, you'll still have Ricardo and
his principle of relative benefit (that the term?). Nobody'll starve
because of competition, unless they're just plain lazy and/or unable to
adapt. Sweatshop work is a variation of the latter.

>All else being equal, there is no logical reason in the world why they
>should be "starving on their own retched little plots of land." Peasant
>farmers have been making an adequate living on "their own retched little
>plots of land." for at least since before any recorded history, and, for
>that matter, can still do so.

If the previous buyers get their food cheaper somewhere else, what's the
problem? That production can survive within the confines of an inefficient
economy is no reason to keep running that inefficient economy. Otherwise
you'd be transfering income from the buyer to the seller, and
inefficiently at that.

>Anyone who spends any time at all researching the conditions of peasant
>farmers in the 3rd world who leave their land and go to work in
>sweatshops would never come to the conclusion that they chose to do so.

They made a choice over starving to death. Sounds like a choice to me.

Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - mailto:decoy at iki.fi, tel:+358-50-5756111
student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front
openpgp: 050985C2/025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2




From sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com  Mon Oct 22 23:51:38 2001
From: sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com (sonofgomez709)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 23:51:38 -0700
Subject: eWe Won't Have CJ Parker and Richard NIxon To Kick Around
  AnyMore...
Message-ID: <007d01c15b8f$2ba57840$3c0da2cd@vaio>


From: Steve Furlong 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---

sonofgomez709 wrote:

> So, the GoodNews is that I can probably avoid being
> sent back to the BOP to be Tortured4BeingDisAbled
> simply by ShuttingTheFuckUp!
> The BadNews, OfCourseOfCourse [TM], is that I have thus
> far proved incapable of doing so,

I can't sympathise much on this basis. A family member, a retired cop
and the family shame, confirmed what I had suspected: that most people
in jail are there because they couldn't keep their mouths shut --- on
the street, in the police station, in court. And many who are denied
parole or who have it revoked couldn't keep their mouths shut in jail.
To tell the truth, I don't think Ralph Waldo Emerson, Martin Luther King,
etal, were particularly concerned about receiving sympathy.
Even if you couldn't shut up, why didn't you use an anonymizer? You have
a characteristic writing style, but there are other rambling, obscure
writers on c-punks and the writing couldn't be positively linked to you.
Or, better yet, you could learn to write in a conventional,
straightforward, clear style and have complete deniability.

My parole conditions prevent me from using anonymizers or
anonymous remailers.
Besides, I had complete deniability at the time of my original
conviction, but it didn't matter, because I was denied the right
to defend myself or interfere with the government's attorney
conceding my guilt.


CJ Parker 
http://profiles.yahoo.com/sonofgomez709
http://www.technopagan.org/politics/xenix/
http://members.w-link.net/~sog/INDEX.HTM
http://jya.com/cejfiles.htm




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Mon Oct 22 20:56:15 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 23:56:15 -0400
Subject: FINALLY! we can buy Staria
References: <20011023030629.5849.qmail@sidereal.kz>
Message-ID: <3BD4EA5F.D6E527B2@acmenet.net>


"Dr. Evil" wrote:

> What do people here think of this?  My initial thoughts are:

> Cons:

<<1, 2, 3 snipped>>

4. It may be made illegal. Terrorists, money launderers, and paedophiles
use them, you know.


> I think I would like to buy some of them, but I can't decide if I want
> to be an early adopter, or wait for cheaper and better versions to
> come out.

If money isn't a major issue, get some now. Help convince the
manufacturer that there's a consumer market. Thank you for paving the
way and making it cheaper for the rest of us. 

-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From njohnsn at IowaTelecom.net  Mon Oct 22 22:08:24 2001
From: njohnsn at IowaTelecom.net (Neil Johnson)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 00:08:24 -0500
Subject: Farm Out! (was Re: Retribution not enough)
References:  <3BD4644D.95C0AF5D@cybershamanix.com> <3BD46A4B.AB07AD02@acmenet.net> <3BD47B14.C083DE15@cybershamanix.com> <3BD496D8.AEF5EED2@acmenet.net> <3BD4A680.31B403@cybershamanix.com> <3.0.6.32.20011022211408.0082d140@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <001401c15b80$be0318a0$0100a8c0@mshome.net>


> Do they avail themselves of modern medicine when they exceed what they can
> do with 19th century methods?  [serious question]

The group that lives in our area will seek treatment, if absolutely
necessary

I guess I should probably  point out that there are many Amish "sects" each
with different rules regarding the use of technology.

Some believe in using absolutely no "modern" technology (no electricity, use
horses instead of tractors, etc.).
Some will use "old" tech (seem my earlier message about using line shafts to
power machines as long as no electricity is used (yeah, yeah they use
electricity to heat the glow plug, go figure).
Some will use tractors instead of horses (but the tractors must have steel
wheels, rubber tires are a sin)
"Liberal" Amish will even drive cars, but they must not have any chrome
(they paint it black) and no white wall tires.

All and all they are pretty friendly people (always wave when you pass their
carriages, etc.).

The biggest problem they face (besides attrition from younger family members
leaving) is getting their carriages smashed by cars going 60+ mph  with
stupid drivers who don't realize how slow the carriages are. Of course the
government now requires them to have slow moving vehicle signs on the back
and recently, despite their objections, battery operated flashing amber
lights.

-Neil







From decoy at iki.fi  Mon Oct 22 14:21:40 2001
From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 00:21:40 +0300 (EEST)
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011022140918.0082ad80@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: 


On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, David Honig wrote:

>Sure.  But unions work to make membership *compulsory*. They have other
>legal privledges.

What can you say? People rent-seek. That's an axiom which also goes by the
name of "rationality". So the problem is not the union, but the
legislators and their backers.

Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - mailto:decoy at iki.fi, tel:+358-50-5756111
student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front
openpgp: 050985C2/025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Mon Oct 22 21:40:08 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 00:40:08 -0400
Subject: FBI considers torture as suspects stay silent
References: 
  <005701c15b67$15c4c260$03d36b3f@pacer.com>
  
  <3.0.6.32.20011022210908.0083bcb0@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3BD4F4A8.52348C4@acmenet.net>


David Honig wrote:

> 1. Since death in combat is far more heroic [1] to these folks than it
> is to Americans, the torturers will have to be careful.
...
> [1] Though one wonders whether psyops -mutilation of corpse and cliched pig
> games-
> would help.

So, the torturers should get rid of their pliers and jumper cables, and
instead get a dozen boars and a bottle of Viagra?

Here's a religious question: If a devout Moslem prepares himself for a
martyr's death [1] but is caught by the cops before his act and is
buggered to death by a dozen pigs [2] on Viagra, does he still go to
heaven? Does it matter if he spills the beans first or if he keeps
silent until death?

[1] Setting aside questions of whether killing innocents really gives
you an express pass to heaven.

[2] Four-footed pigs, I mean, not policemen.

-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From staff at wirelessdeveloper.com  Mon Oct 22 21:43:28 2001
From: staff at wirelessdeveloper.com (The WirelessDeveloper Team)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 00:43:28 -0400
Subject: Your WirelessDeveloper Password
Message-ID: <3BD42F8400000A25@mail.wirelessdeveloper.com> (added by mail.wirelessdeveloper.com)


This email has been sent automatically by The WirelessDeveloper System

Username: cypherpunks at toad.com
Password: W5m5oiWiy5fG

Go to http://www.wirelessdeveloper.com/login.asp?email=cypherpunks at toad.com and enter your username and password to log on to the WirelessDeveloper site.

Thank You!
The WirelessDeveloper Team




From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Tue Oct 23 00:44:16 2001
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 00:44:16 -0700
Subject: FBI considers torture as suspects stay silent
Message-ID: <4ac62496028ba75f680065e8f6e1ecd5@melontraffickers.com>


On Tue, 23 Oct 2001 measl at mfn.org wrote:

> On Tue, 23 Oct 2001, Anonymous User wrote:
>
> > > At the risk of being told to go google (which I guess I'll do in a
> > > moment), does anyone have any information either contrary to this, or
> > > possibly of another "truth serum" that would fit the stated bill?
> >
> > Methylenedioxy-n-methylamphetamine.
>
> I have never heard of MDMA in this context before.
>
> A quick google does not produce meaningful citations either :-(  Any
> pointers to research?

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22truth+drug%22

Turns up a lot of info on the various substances that have been tried as 
"truth drugs."

The first hit is about MDMA:

http://www.idmu.co.uk/xtruth.html

I seem to recall that MDA (very similar to MDMA) was in fact used in US
Army studies of truth drugs.

The most likely to have some measure of sucess would probably be MDMA.  
However, no chemical is likely to be found that forces a subject to tell
the truth. The most successful "truth drugs" all generally work on the
same idea: if you can make your subject more relaxed, at ease, and eager
to talk, you'll be able to extract more information from him and possibly
extrapolate the truth from that.

MDMA would have a greater degree of success in cases where the subject 
subconsciously wanted to talk anyway.




From staff at wirelessdeveloper.com  Mon Oct 22 21:44:24 2001
From: staff at wirelessdeveloper.com (The WirelessDeveloper Team)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 00:44:24 -0400
Subject: Your WirelessDeveloper Password
Message-ID: <3BD42F8400000A26@mail.wirelessdeveloper.com> (added by mail.wirelessdeveloper.com)


This email has been sent automatically by The WirelessDeveloper System

Username: cypherpunks at toad.com
Password: W5m5oiWiy5fG

Go to http://www.wirelessdeveloper.com/login.asp?email=cypherpunks at toad.com and enter your username and password to log on to the WirelessDeveloper site.

Thank You!
The WirelessDeveloper Team




From staff at wirelessdeveloper.com  Mon Oct 22 21:44:29 2001
From: staff at wirelessdeveloper.com (The WirelessDeveloper Team)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 00:44:29 -0400
Subject: Your WirelessDeveloper Password
Message-ID: <3BD42F8400000A27@mail.wirelessdeveloper.com> (added by mail.wirelessdeveloper.com)


This email has been sent automatically by The WirelessDeveloper System

Username: cypherpunks at toad.com
Password: W5m5oiWiy5fG

Go to http://www.wirelessdeveloper.com/login.asp?email=cypherpunks at toad.com and enter your username and password to log on to the WirelessDeveloper site.

Thank You!
The WirelessDeveloper Team




From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Mon Oct 22 22:52:04 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 00:52:04 -0500
Subject: Netscape Out!
References: <3BD48396.7327D406@cybershamanix.com>
  <3BD474BA.2040.269235E@localhost>
Message-ID: <3BD50582.B916C583@cybershamanix.com>


georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote:

> On 22 Oct 2001, at 18:52, Tim May wrote:
>
>
> > You must be the only remaining user of NS (for either the Mac or
> > Windows). Everyone I know gave up on NS 5 and moved on to IE. It's not
> > perfect, but it's not buggy like "AOLscape" is.
> >
>
> There never was a netscape 5, they jumped from 4.5 to 6.
>

      I'm using 4.8 -- tried 6, it sux.


--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver at cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html




From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Mon Oct 22 23:05:01 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 01:05:01 -0500
Subject: Farm Out! (was Re: Retribution not enough)
References: <8F4408B7-C758-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <3BD5088B.A3FA2E9A@cybershamanix.com>


Tim May wrote:

> On Monday, October 22, 2001, at 01:38 PM, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>
> >      Hmm, now that is bizarre. Anybody have any idea why Netscape does
> > that sometimes? And not others? It looks fine when I hit the send button
>
> Does _what_?
>
> It would help if you gave an example of what you're talking about.
>

      The message I just sent moments before -- the formatting was trashed,
although the ones before that were fine -- totally random weirdness.


> You must be the only remaining user of NS (for either the Mac or
> Windows). Everyone I know gave up on NS 5 and moved on to IE. It's not
> perfect, but it's not buggy like "AOLscape" is.

     Ish! I'm getting bummed with NS, but wouldn't use IE on a bet. Why use a
virus magnet? But then, I don't use any other M$ product either, it's all
third rate. Actually, NS on linux works pretty well.
      What I'm probably going to do is just stop using the Mac for
communication at all, and just stick with linux, where I can use mutt and
opera (which is seriously faster than either NS or IE) or maybe konquerer, if
I can get it to work under gnome. I bought the Mac just for DTP, then got
seduced by it's audio/visual stuff and finally started using it for web and
mail too, but that's becoming too annoying.

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver at cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Tue Oct 23 01:13:49 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 01:13:49 -0700
Subject: Netscape Out!
In-Reply-To: <3BD50582.B916C583@cybershamanix.com>
References: <3BD48396.7327D406@cybershamanix.com>
  <3BD474BA.2040.269235E@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011023010648.03608e30@idiom.com>


At 12:52 AM 10/23/2001 -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote:
> > On 22 Oct 2001, at 18:52, Tim May wrote:
> > > You must be the only remaining user of NS (for either the Mac or
> > > Windows). Everyone I know gave up on NS 5 and moved on to IE. It's not
> > > perfect, but it's not buggy like "AOLscape" is.
> >
> > There never was a netscape 5, they jumped from 4.5 to 6.
> >
>
>       I'm using 4.8 -- tried 6, it sux.

6.0 ranged from bad, if you had enough RAM, to mind-bogglingly amazingly bad
if you ran on Win98 with 24MB RAM.  It was way beyond atrocious -
just trying to load the startup page (set to "about://") took
tens of minutes of little pieces dribbling onto the screen.
6.1, on the other hand, seems to work tolerably well,
at least on my 64MB RAM machine.

I normally use Mozilla (though I'm finding that 0.9.5 crashes a bit more 
than 0.9.4.)
The one main gripe I've had about Mozilla has been that a number of
plug-ins either don't work at all or have installers that get confused
if your machine has both a Netscape 6.x and a Mozilla on it,
and tends not to install itself where the Mozilla can find it.

I use IE for pages that have too much broken Javascript to survive on Mozilla,
or for pages that have plugins that my Mozilla doesn't support.




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Tue Oct 23 01:18:51 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 01:18:51 -0700
Subject: FINALLY! we can buy Staria
In-Reply-To: <20011023030629.5849.qmail@sidereal.kz>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011023005245.036020b0@idiom.com>


At 03:06 AM 10/23/2001 +0000, Dr. Evil wrote:
>(is that the correct plural of Starium?)
>http://www.tactronix.com/s100.htm
>NOW TAKING PRE-ORDERS FOR DELIVERY IN DECEMBER 2001/JANUARY 2002
>Very Limited Quantity Available

Yee-hah!  I'm glad that finally got worked out!


>2. The unit looks very easy to use.  I could travel anywhere in the
>    world with it (well, anywhere that it's legal) and plug it in and
>    press one button and it works.  That's great.

Well, anywhere the phone jacks and dialing standards are compatible.
You probably want to stop at Fry's or some overpriced airport shop
and get a collection of different shaped phone jacks and alligator clips,
if you're taking them to places with Funky Phone Standards.


>Cons:
>1. I would like to see an open source reference software
>    implementation, or some way to verify that there are no "naughty
>    bits" in this thing.  I know, open source isn't much of a business
>    model, but with encryption products, it seems almost essential.

Depends on whether the fire sale includes intellectual property
or just parts.   That's certainly a call for companies in this line of work
to (preferably) do a "read-only open source" if they're not doing real 
openness,
or at minimum do a source code / design escrow.

>3. A minor nitpick: It uses 3DES.  What's wrong with AES?

At the time they started, AES wasn't finalized.
The main negatives about 3DES are that it's slow and ugly,
plus it takes a bit too much code space and needs 168bits of key,
but it's incredibly thoroughly studied and everybody trusts it.
And 2048-bit Diffie-Hellman provides plenty of key bits,
and when you're doing voice at 4800-24000kbps ( = 600-3000 Bytes/sec),
the encryption isn't your big horsepower consumer,
compared to the voice compression, and even if you do compression in ASICs,
you still need to keep enough CPU around to do the Diffie-Hellman in
reasonable amounts of time and handle connection handshaking,
so 3DES isn't any big strain.




From measl at mfn.org  Mon Oct 22 23:20:42 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 01:20:42 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: FBI considers torture as suspects stay silent
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 23 Oct 2001, Anonymous User wrote:

> > At the risk of being told to go google (which I guess I'll do in a
> > moment), does anyone have any information either contrary to this, or
> > possibly of another "truth serum" that would fit the stated bill? 
> 
> Methylenedioxy-n-methylamphetamine.

I have never heard of MDMA in this context before.

A quick google does not produce meaningful citations either :-(  Any
pointers to research?

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From proff at iq.org  Mon Oct 22 08:40:24 2001
From: proff at iq.org (Julian Assange)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 01:40:24 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Tim May
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <20011022154024.3C72C259EC@suburbia.net>


> >From Tim, Killer Cypherpunk, in a couple of posts about a half-hour apart:
> 
> Free people are free to fire those who form communal organizations. 
> Anyone who disagrees with this point has earned killing.
> 
>  .and.
> 
> Fucking creep. Where's that sniper rifle, Bob?
> -----------------
> Someone told me that, deep down, Tim is really a sensitive kinda guy.
> 
> 
>   ..
> Blanc

Any man who keeps a cat is either sensitive. Or gay. Or both. Tim
keeps two.

Date: 2000/10/23

ba.mountain-folk

 I have two cats. Raised from kittenhood. They are delightful...no
 scratching, no tearing up of furniture, a joy to be around. Both are
 males, both were fixed (neutered) at the usual age.

[..]]

 Have you considered having him be mainly an outdoor cat? Just a
 little bit of food and medical care, and maybe a warm place to
 sleep, should be enough. Many people with "outdoor cats" let them
 in at night and put them out in the morning. This minimizes the
 "tearing up while owners are out" effect.

--
 Julian Assange        |If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people
                       |together to collect wood or assign them tasks and
 proff at iq.org          |work, but rather teach them to long for the endless
 proff at gnu.ai.mit.edu  |immensity of the sea. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery




From drevil at sidereal.kz  Mon Oct 22 18:45:07 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil)
Date: 23 Oct 2001 01:45:07 -0000
Subject: Why Plan-9?
In-Reply-To: 
	(message from zem on Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:21:11 +1000 (EST))
References: 
Message-ID: <20011023014507.4141.qmail@sidereal.kz>


> > "Built-in crypto" is a big overstatement for OpenBSD.  Unfortunately,
> > Win 2000 has more built-in crypto than OpenBSD does.  Hint: Try to
> > create an encrypted FS on OpenBSD.  [...]
> 
> dd if=/dev/zero of=diskimage bs=1024k count=1024
> vnconfig -ck svnd0 diskimage
> [enter a passphrase]
> newfs /dev/svnd0c
> mount /dev/svnd0c /mnt

I am aware of that, but it's a hack, and it doesn't work well.  For
example, it has no way of detecting when you enter an incorrect
password.  Anyway, for an OS which prides itself on built-in crypto,
why do we have to mess around with loopback?  There are many FS
features, such as being able to change read, write end execute perms
for owner, group and root, which don't require a loopback FS.  How is
this any different from that?  If it were really integrated crypto, I
would be able to do 

mount -k /dev/sd0c

and it would do the right thing.  Even better, I would be prompted for
a password during boot so it could boot from an encrypted fs.

This is a glaring hole in OpenBSD's crypt-everywhere mantra.




From freematt at coil.com  Mon Oct 22 22:46:33 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 01:46:33 -0400
Subject: FBI considers torture as suspects stay silent
In-Reply-To: <005701c15b67$15c4c260$03d36b3f@pacer.com>
References: <72a787729e6e65b8169aff017d3bdb2d@mixmaster.nullify.org>
  <005701c15b67$15c4c260$03d36b3f@pacer.com>
Message-ID: 


At 9:04 PM -0500 10/22/01, Jon Beets wrote:
>This appears total BS to me... While I don't doubt some agents do at times
>conduct their own idea of interrogation I sincerely doubt that the FBI as a
>whole would be considering this...
>
>Jon Beets

And you base your doubts on what?  The FBI's sterling track record?

Regards,  Matt-


**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week)
Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722  ICQ: 106212065   Archived at 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/
**************************************************************************




From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Tue Oct 23 02:13:15 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 02:13:15 -0700
Subject: Netscape Out!
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20011023010648.03608e30@idiom.com>; from
  bill.stewart@pobox.com on Tue, Oct 23, 2001 at 01:13:49AM -0700
References: <3BD48396.7327D406@cybershamanix.com>
  <3BD474BA.2040.269235E@localhost>
  <3BD50582.B916C583@cybershamanix.com>
  <5.0.2.1.1.20011023010648.03608e30@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <20011023021315.B1516@navel.introspect>


on Tue, Oct 23, 2001 at 01:13:49AM -0700, Bill Stewart
(bill.stewart at pobox.com) wrote:
> At 12:52 AM 10/23/2001 -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote:
> >georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote:
> > > On 22 Oct 2001, at 18:52, Tim May wrote:
> > > > You must be the only remaining user of NS (for either the Mac or
> > > > Windows). Everyone I know gave up on NS 5 and moved on to IE. It's
not
> > > > perfect, but it's not buggy like "AOLscape" is.
> > >
> > > There never was a netscape 5, they jumped from 4.5 to 6.
> > >
> >       I'm using 4.8 -- tried 6, it sux.
>
> 6.0 ranged from bad, if you had enough RAM, to mind-bogglingly
> amazingly bad if you ran on Win98 with 24MB RAM.

For the GNU/Linux and free 'Nix users in the crowd, I've got my own set
of reviews (about four months stale, update kinda in progress) at

    http://kmself.home.netcom.com/Linux/FAQs/browsers.html

My personal graphical pick:  Galeon.  Konqeror and Mozilla aren't too
far behind.  w3m and lynx are great for quick text browsing.  Dillo's a
blazingly fast, lightweight graphical browser, if you don't mind the odd
rough edge (no cookies, frames, animated gifs, cut'n'paste,
Java/Javascript -- most of which is IMVA a Good Thing(tm)).  Other
clients reviewed as well.  Netscape?  It sucks, blows, bites, and loses.

Peace.

--
Karsten M. Self        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?             Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]




From drevil at sidereal.kz  Mon Oct 22 20:06:29 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil)
Date: 23 Oct 2001 03:06:29 -0000
Subject: FINALLY! we can buy Staria
Message-ID: <20011023030629.5849.qmail@sidereal.kz>


(is that the correct plural of Starium?)

http://www.tactronix.com/s100.htm

NOW TAKING PRE-ORDERS FOR DELIVERY IN DECEMBER 2001/JANUARY 2002

Very Limited Quantity Available

A 50% Deposit Will Reserve Your Units Today!!

1-10 Units  $995 USD Each

11-20 Units $936 USD Each

21-50 Units $884 USD Each

51 Units+ Call For Price

What do people here think of this?  My initial thoughts are:

Pros:

1. Voice encryption is great.  It's the Last Great Encryption Taboo
   (the other is file encryption, but that's not nearly as taboo as
   voice).  I'm glad to see something on the market which addresses
   this.  Obviously, all traffic, including saying hi to grandma,
   should be encrypted.

2. The unit looks very easy to use.  I could travel anywhere in the
   world with it (well, anywhere that it's legal) and plug it in and
   press one button and it works.  That's great.

Cons:

1. I would like to see an open source reference software
   implementation, or some way to verify that there are no "naughty
   bits" in this thing.  I know, open source isn't much of a business
   model, but with encryption products, it seems almost essential.

2. It's expensive.  It costs more than a PC.  However, $2k for two
   units is small compared to the value of data it could be securing,
   so for many users, the price will be fine.

3. A minor nitpick: It uses 3DES.  What's wrong with AES?

I think I would like to buy some of them, but I can't decide if I want
to be an early adopter, or wait for cheaper and better versions to
come out.




From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Tue Oct 23 04:23:57 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 04:23:57 -0700
Subject: USPS:  glowing by leaps and bounds
Message-ID: <20011023042357.A4290@navel.introspect>


Irradiation equipment is being considered for mail processing, heard
both over NPR's Morning Edition, and referenced in a story posted to
Yahoo!:

    http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ksat/20011022/lo/932238_1.html

    KSAT
    Monday October 22 08:39 PM EDT
    Safety Concerns Grow Among Postal Customers, Inspectors

    [...]

    The U.S. Postal Service said Monday that it is looking into a
    technological method that could block the movement of anthrax in the
    mail.

    Postal Inspector Doug Turner said the postal service has studied how
    radiation equipment used to kill bacteria in foods could help
    against the germ threats.

    "The radiation would kill the bacteria that might be involved with
    the mail," Turner said.

    But there is no official word on whether the irradiation equipment
    would make it's way to San Antonio.

    [...]

I would hope that relatively short-term leases are being considered.  Or
is this going to be a long-term threat?

Any pointers on packaging for photographic and/or magnetic media through
mail to survive irradiation equipment?  How about the magstrips on all
those credit cards issued through the mail?

Peace.

--
Karsten M. Self        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?             Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]




From grocha at neutraldomain.org  Tue Oct 23 04:55:06 2001
From: grocha at neutraldomain.org (Gabriel Rocha)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 04:55:06 -0700
Subject: Farm Out! (was Re: Retribution not enough)
In-Reply-To: ; from measl@mfn.org on Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 09:07:44PM -0500
References: <8F4408B7-C758-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net> 
Message-ID: <20011023045506.A47312@neutraldomain.org>


		On Mon, Oct 22, at 09:07PM, measl at mfn.org wrote:
| Try Opera: Fast, free if you don't mind banners (and for a small license
| fee, no banners at all), and *totally* customizable (right down to custom
| built binaries!).
| 
| Available for Micro$loth, Beos, Linux, Slowlaris, OS/2, QNX - just about
| everything except MVS and BSD :-(

It is in the FreeBSD ports and works wonderfully well under FreeBSD,
no clue about Net or Open.

| * Disclaimer: I have absolutely no relation to these guys in any way. *

ditto

-- 
Churchill, Winston Leonard Spencer --On the eve of Britain's entry
into World War II:
	"If you will not fight for right when you can easily win 
without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be 
sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will 
have to fight with all odds against you and only a precarious 
chance of survival. There may be even a worse fate. You may have 
to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to 
perish than to live as slaves.




From anonymous at remailer.havenco.com  Mon Oct 22 22:11:09 2001
From: anonymous at remailer.havenco.com (Anonymous User)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 05:11:09 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: FBI considers torture as suspects stay silent
Message-ID: 


> At the risk of being told to go google (which I guess I'll do in a
> moment), does anyone have any information either contrary to this, or
> possibly of another "truth serum" that would fit the stated bill? 

Methylenedioxy-n-methylamphetamine.




From mini.atmbiz at laposte.net  Tue Oct 23 06:19:17 2001
From: mini.atmbiz at laposte.net (mini.atmbiz at laposte.net)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 06:19:17 -0700
Subject: Thank You For Your Interest..........
Message-ID: 



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From flatrate2002 at phone_free.au  Tue Oct 23 03:30:43 2001
From: flatrate2002 at phone_free.au (flatrate2002 at phone_free.au)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 06:30:43 -0400
Subject: Flatrate - Email Response
Message-ID: 


Below is the result of your feedback form.  It was submitted by
 (flatrate2002 at phone_free.au) on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 at 06:30:43
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

message: 
Introducing
The Newest Flatrate LongDistance Plan
Along With A System To Make $5800 Per Month Using Our Unique System.

email us at flatratephonerates at excite.com
Include your name, phone number, and best time to call or you will not receive a response back.


__________________________________________________________________
To be romoved from this database email removethelistnow at excite.com
__________________________________________________________________



---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Tue Oct 23 06:36:23 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 06:36:23 -0700
Subject: Conman, quantum entaglement and no cat
Message-ID: 


C'punks,

As it happens, I sent Penn an e-mail asking him about Copperfield's trick.
I didn't ask HOW it was done (that's considered bad form), but if he had a
good idea how it was done or could have been done.  Haven't heard from him
yet, but I'll report his answer when I get it.


 S a n d y

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com]On
> Behalf Of Bill Stewart
> Sent: 22 October, 2001 19:05
> To: cypherpunks at lne.com
> Subject: Re: Conman, quantum entaglement and no cat
>
>
> At 04:16 PM 10/22/2001 -0700, Eric Cordian wrote:
> >Anonymous forwarded:
> >
> > > "It wasn't a trick," Copperfield told Bild am Sonntag newspaper after
> > > the performance on the popular Wanna Bet? show on ZDF television. "It
> > > was more an experiment and mental exercise. We only use about 10 per
> > > cent of our brain capacity."
> >...
> >How gullible can people be?  The only magical art Copperfield
> has mastered
> >is the building of overengineered stage props.
> >
> >Randi would blow this away in 10 seconds.  Better they had buried
> >Copperfield's box in a Faraday Cage under 10 feet of wet cement, and had
> >the armed guards watch that.
>
>
> Now, if Penn and Teller had done the same thing, they'd say
> "Of course it's a trick!  We fooled you guys,
> and you couldn't catch how we did it!
> People only use 10% of our brain capacity,
> but we're using 15% of ours and you're using 5% of yours,
> so tricking you is *easy*!  And we can do it again,
> with Teller hanging upside down in a straightjacket
> over a bed of nails!"
>
> Occasionally you can see how they do their tricks,
> usually in the "Mofo the Psychic Gorilla" schtick,
> but that's because while you're catching them doing one trick,
> they're actually setting up another one.  Mofo knows.....
>
> BTW, Penn did a nice anti-Clipper rant in his computer column
> about N years ago.




From honig at sprynet.com  Tue Oct 23 08:20:38 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 08:20:38 -0700
Subject: FBI considers torture as suspects stay silent
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011023082038.0083c730@pop.sprynet.com>


At 05:11 AM 10/23/01 +0000, Anonymous User wrote:
>> At the risk of being told to go google (which I guess I'll do in a
>> moment), does anyone have any information either contrary to this, or
>> possibly of another "truth serum" that would fit the stated bill? 
>
>Methylenedioxy-n-methylamphetamine.
>

No no no, that was the .za attempt at a riot-control drug, if you
believe certain reports.

Besides, the Taliban don't dance.




From pam at synapse.com  Tue Oct 23 08:24:55 2001
From: pam at synapse.com (Pam Cholinesterase)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 08:24:55 -0700
Subject: Fair Warning
Message-ID: <3BD58BC7.D024E0DF@synapse.com>


At 11:15 PM 10/22/01 -0700, sonofgomez709 wrote:
>The LEA's who accompanied my Parole Officer on her visit
>to my residence today performed an illegal search of the
>room of another resident of the house in which I live.
>Given the fact that the visit was a result of LEA monitoring
>of the CPUNX list, list members should be aware that
>their participation in the list may expose them to similar
>illegal intrusions by government agents.

We know we're watched, but *you're* the one on parole
shooting your mouth off (probably ok) and naming particular people
(probably not).

As for an illegal search, well, more details please...
you don't even mention which nation you live under.




From honig at sprynet.com  Tue Oct 23 08:31:38 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 08:31:38 -0700
Subject: USPS:  glowing by leaps and bounds
In-Reply-To: <20011023042357.A4290@navel.introspect>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011023083138.0083c580@pop.sprynet.com>


At 04:23 AM 10/23/01 -0700, Karsten M. Self wrote:
>Any pointers on packaging for photographic and/or magnetic media through
>mail to survive irradiation equipment?  How about the magstrips on all
>those credit cards issued through the mail?
>

Forget that, how about seeds and seedlings?  What will Burpee do?




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Tue Oct 23 05:51:13 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 08:51:13 -0400
Subject: eWe Won't Have CJ Parker and Richard NIxon To Kick Around
  AnyMore...
References: <007d01c15b8f$2ba57840$3c0da2cd@vaio>
Message-ID: <3BD567C1.5A74B8D@acmenet.net>


sonofgomez709 wrote:

> My parole conditions prevent me from using anonymizers or
> anonymous remailers.

Ah. That would do it.

Could you finesse the condition by having someone sit at your computer
and type as you dictated? _He_ wouldn't be bound by your parole
conditions. Or could you send private email to a friend who would then
relay it to an anonymizer web? (Or straight 
to the list, for that matter.)

Of course, (I'd say "OfCourseOfCourse", but that's trademarked. )
those methods wouldn't do any good if your release conditions require
that you keep a copy of _everything_ you send out. Also, of course,
you'd have to have one writing style for messages Big Brother could
associate with you and another for your anonymous messages.

-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From d4292 at go.ru  Tue Oct 23 05:53:14 2001
From: d4292 at go.ru (d4292 at go.ru)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 08:53:14 -0400
Subject: Scholarships / Education Financial Aid....
Message-ID: <0000026a4114$0000003f$000034df@forum.dk>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 1546 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From hakkin at sarin.com  Tue Oct 23 08:54:47 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 08:54:47 -0700
Subject: rate this, mofo
Message-ID: <3BD592C7.6FEAB11A@sarin.com>


        Internet Cos. Back Filtering System

      The industry is getting some governmental support as well.
        Kenny said five lawmakers have told her they will
        introduce a bill encouraging legislators to rate their own
        Web sites.

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011023/tc/internet_filtering.html

Do Gary Condit, Judge Thomas, Clinton count as porn?

How about the 'diaper-headed' representative, does he count as a 'hate
site'?




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Tue Oct 23 09:07:47 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 09:07:47 -0700
Subject: openbsd encrypted fs
In-Reply-To: 
References: <20011023014507.4141.qmail@sidereal.kz>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011023085022.03235620@idiom.com>


At 01:38 PM 10/23/2001 +1000, zem wrote:
>On 23 Oct 2001, Dr. Evil wrote:
> > > vnconfig -ck svnd0 diskimage

I don't have a BSD system around to check -
what does this approach do?

> > Anyway, for an OS which prides itself on built-in crypto,
> > why do we have to mess around with loopback?  ...
>Can you describe a scenario under which an encrypted fs is valuable enough
>to justify typing one command, but not two?  OpenBSD's target audience is
>not exactly clueless newbies.
>Or is speed so important that you'd sacrifice security?  Any encrypted fs
>will take a performance hit; I think you'll find loopback overhead is
>insignificant next to the crypto.

Is Dr. Evil's concern with loopback just the speed?
(Plus the ugly minimal user interface, which is a job for a script.)
Machines are enough faster these days that I'd think the
only places that's a big hit, other than database apps,
are swap space, and you can mostly fix that by buying enough RAM.


>Is booting from an encrypted fs ever useful?  Use read-only media if
>tampering is a concern.  Configure and mount other encrypted filesystems
>from /etc/rc.  If you can install and maintain OpenBSD, you can manage

If you've got applications that insist on putting data in /etc or /var,
or for log files in general, you have to be careful about the order the
system starts in.  And if you're worried about people seeing your config files
that might show who you communicate with, you could go paranoid about this.
IPSEC secrets may be a concern, if stealing/cloning the disk lets someone
forge your identity.

>It's worth noting their primary goal is network security, not crypto.
>Rubber hoses don't factor significantly in their threat model.

Laptop theft belongs in *most* security models.




From hakkin at sarin.com  Tue Oct 23 09:15:08 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 09:15:08 -0700
Subject: Domestic psyops: USPO
Message-ID: <3BD5978C.DDABCE91@sarin.com>


                 How naif can (even a USPO manager) be?

 Postal Union Advises Workers in Public Eye Not to Wear Protective Masks
                               and Gloves
Oct 23, 2001

WASHINGTON (AP) - Worried about the image of postal workers, one union
has been urging its members who work in the public eye not to wear the
protective gear being provided since the discovery that anthrax was sent
through the mail.

Workplace guidelines have been modified to allow employees to wear
gloves, masks and other protective gear.

But "this is not the visual image we wish to project to the citizens we
serve," according to a Friday newsletter by the American Postal Workers
Union's news service, dated before two postal workers died. The
newsletter was posted on the union's Web site Monday.

Workers in the public eye should not wear the gear, the newsletter said.
It does not address the issue of employees who handle mail, such as
those at the Brentwood facility in Washington, the city's central mail
processing facility.




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Tue Oct 23 09:31:57 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 09:31:57 -0700
Subject: USPS:  glowing by leaps and bounds
In-Reply-To: <20011023042357.A4290@navel.introspect>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011023091431.03237d30@idiom.com>


At 04:23 AM 10/23/2001 -0700, Karsten M. Self wrote:
>Irradiation equipment is being considered for mail processing, heard
>both over NPR's Morning Edition, and referenced in a story posted to
>Yahoo!:     http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ksat/20011022/lo/932238_1.html
>...

Adds new meaning to a "glowing letter of recommendation" :-)

>I would hope that relatively short-term leases are being considered.
>Or is this going to be a long-term threat?

This isn't the kind of thing you back off on, once you've started,
because the potential threat of muckers out there doesn't decrease over time,
thought the number of wannabees and copycats may be temporarily high.
The real question is how much does the government want to either
scare us about the threats or reassure us about how well
they're protecting us, or both - given that they've been waving the
anthrax flag for four or five years now, I'd expect this is long term.

>Any pointers on packaging for photographic and/or magnetic media through
>mail to survive irradiation equipment?  How about the magstrips on all
>those credit cards issued through the mail?

Magnetic media shouldn't be bothered - you need to be careful around
X-ray machines, but that's because of electromagnets, not radiation.
Unexposed photographic film could have a real problem with this,
depending on quite what they're using.
I'd worry more about medicines and other biologicals and foods -
obviously you're not going to ship a live-culture vaccine through this...




From morten at hotpost.dk  Tue Oct 23 00:57:03 2001
From: morten at hotpost.dk (Morten Liebach)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 09:57:03 +0200
Subject: openbsd encrypted fs
In-Reply-To: 
References: <20011023014507.4141.qmail@sidereal.kz> 
Message-ID: <20011023095703.B2041@hotpost.dk>


On 23, Oct, 2001 at 01:38:02PM +1000, zem wrote:
> > This is a glaring hole in OpenBSD's crypt-everywhere mantra.
> 
> It's worth noting their primary goal is network security, not crypto.
> Rubber hoses don't factor significantly in their threat model.

I also think it's important to remember that OpenBSD is quite
conservative in many ways, it's a part of the security philosophy.

But I agree, a stable and functional encrypted FS would fit right in.
(Maybe I should learn to code :-)

Have a nice day
                                 Morten

-- 
Morten Liebach 
PGP-key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xD796A4EB
https://pc89225.stofanet.dk/ || http://pc89225.stofanet.dk/




From declan at well.com  Tue Oct 23 07:55:07 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 10:55:07 -0400
Subject: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3BD4DDAB.59A7D300@acmenet.net>; from sfurlong@acmenet.net
  on Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 11:02:03PM -0400
References: 
  <3BD4DDAB.59A7D300@acmenet.net>
Message-ID: <20011023105506.A22019@cluebot.com>


On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 11:02:03PM -0400, Steve Furlong wrote:
> I disagree. Feinstein et al aren't cooperating with Big Brother in hopes
> of better treatment. They _are_ Big Brother.

If any U.S. politician qualifies for that title, two high-profile
senators and a man who came closer than anyone else in history to
being vice president certainly would.

-Declan




From declan at well.com  Tue Oct 23 08:00:29 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:00:29 -0400
Subject: FBI considers torture as suspects stay silent
In-Reply-To: <08E9EFC6-C769-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>; from
  tcmay@got.net on Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 08:50:01PM -0700
References: <20011022223335.A20951@cluebot.com>
  <08E9EFC6-C769-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <20011023110029.B22019@cluebot.com>


On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 08:50:01PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> Yes, but this is one of those manufactured, utterly implausible 
> situations. I cannot think of a single instance where a suspect had this 
> kind of knowledge, with this kind of stakes, and with this kind of "next 
> three hours" timetable. Even relaxing each item by a factor of 10...I 
> can't think of any such examples.

Neither can I. My intention was not to suggest that it's acceptable to
rip out the accused's toenails, slowly, but to suggest that this is
the kind of scenario that we may hear politicians talking about in short
order. 

-Declan




From declan at well.com  Tue Oct 23 08:02:58 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:02:58 -0400
Subject: FBI considers torture as suspects stay silent
In-Reply-To: <005701c15b67$15c4c260$03d36b3f@pacer.com>; from
  Jon.Beets@pacer.com on Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 09:04:44PM -0500
References: <72a787729e6e65b8169aff017d3bdb2d@mixmaster.nullify.org>
  <005701c15b67$15c4c260$03d36b3f@pacer.com>
Message-ID: <20011023110258.C22019@cluebot.com>


On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 09:04:44PM -0500, Jon Beets wrote:
> This appears total BS to me... While I don't doubt some agents do at times
> conduct their own idea of interrogation I sincerely doubt that the FBI as a
> whole would be considering this...

Yes, journalists like those at the Times and the Washington Post are
commonly in the habit of fabricating interviews. Um, no. Such a thing
may of course happen -- remember that Pulitzer-winner a while back --
but when you weigh it against the likelihood of an FBI trial balloon,
all becomes clear.

-Declan




From declan at well.com  Tue Oct 23 08:05:57 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:05:57 -0400
Subject: eWe Won't Have CJ Parker and Richard NIxon To Kick Around
  AnyMore...
In-Reply-To: <3BD4E4C3.3412AAAC@acmenet.net>; from sfurlong@acmenet.net
  on Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 11:32:19PM -0400
References: <002601c15b63$09069200$5f0da2cd@vaio>
  <3BD4E4C3.3412AAAC@acmenet.net>
Message-ID: <20011023110557.D22019@cluebot.com>


On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 11:32:19PM -0400, Steve Furlong wrote:
> I can't sympathise much on this basis. A family member, a retired cop
> and the family shame, confirmed what I had suspected: that most people
> in jail are there because they couldn't keep their mouths shut --- on

Um, no. Many are there because they're (gasp) "drug criminals."

1.6 million drug arrests made last year:
http://www.alchemind.org/News/ucr2000.htm

-Declan




From declan at well.com  Tue Oct 23 08:07:41 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:07:41 -0400
Subject: Ananova - US researchers discover artificial sperm
In-Reply-To: <3BD4E021.EFEFE74F@acmenet.net>; from sfurlong@acmenet.net
  on Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 11:12:33PM -0400
References: <3BD4DDCE.7945117B@ssz.com> <3BD4E021.EFEFE74F@acmenet.net>
Message-ID: <20011023110741.E22019@cluebot.com>


It is, of course, unfair to paint Nadine Strossen with the same brush
you'd use with Andrea Dworkin. 

-Declan


On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 11:12:33PM -0400, Steve Furlong wrote:
> Jim Choate wrote:
> > 
> > http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_430602.html?menu=news.latestheadlines
> 
> Well, shit, don't let Andrea Dworkin or Nadine Strossen find out, or
> we're all done for!
> 
> -- 
> Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
>   617-670-3793
> 
> "Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
> while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From auto301094 at hushmail.com  Tue Oct 23 11:18:09 2001
From: auto301094 at hushmail.com (auto301094 at hushmail.com)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:18:09 -0700
Subject: Wolfowitz, Calling For "Great Caution," Limits DoD Employees'
  Discussions
Message-ID: <200110231818.f9NII9r98705@mailserver1.hushmail.com>

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Tue Oct 23 09:19:59 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:19:59 -0500
Subject: Farm Out! (was Re: Retribution not enough)
References: 
	  <3BD4644D.95C0AF5D@cybershamanix.com> <3BD46A4B.AB07AD02@acmenet.net>
	  <3BD47B14.C083DE15@cybershamanix.com> <3BD496D8.AEF5EED2@acmenet.net>
	  <3BD4A680.31B403@cybershamanix.com> <3.0.6.32.20011022211408.0082d140@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3BD598AA.80F0E14D@cybershamanix.com>


David Honig wrote:

> At 10:24 PM 10/22/01 -0500, Neil Johnson wrote:
> >My father in-law makes some extra dough by converting modern  power tools
> >(Delta table saws, belt sanders, and lathes) to run of a  central drive
> >shaft so the Amish in our area can build furniture.  Evidently it's "kosher"
> >to use a centrally located diesel engine (with a battery to start it even!)
>

      Their point is be disconnected from any central control, for one thing.
It's independance, not a total rejection of modern ways. They'll ride in cars,
for instance, just not, for the most part, own them.
      And my main point was that they do very well financially, where most other
small family farms are going under.

>
> He can get a side job pressing elevator buttons on Saturday, when
> its not kosher to do so.  In tech kosher places (e.g., Cedar-Sinai MC)
> the elevators stop on every floor on Saturday.  I don't make this stuff up.
>
> >Several Amish farms put telephones in their barns for emergency purposes (or
> >drive to nearby store to use a phone booth to call relatives, etc.).
> >
> >So much for being "independent".

       Well, what's wrong with that? If you have a phone line in your house, it
makes it easy to bug you, doesn't it. I lived without a phone for about 18
years, it's not difficult. At one point, in fact, the phone company, without
asking, ran a buried phone line to the quite rural house we lived in, knocked on
the door and asked if they could install a phone inside. I said no, and, as soon
as they left, dug up the phone line in a dozen places along the route, cutting
chunks out of it.
       No paranoia here.  8-)

>
>
> Do they avail themselves of modern medicine when they exceed what they can
> do with 19th century methods?  [serious question]

      Yes, generally, but I'm not sure about vaccinations. Can't remember. At
one point we lived around a lot of Amish, really wanted to join up with them,
but they weren't taking converts.

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver at cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html





From zem at zip.com.au  Mon Oct 22 18:21:11 2001
From: zem at zip.com.au (zem)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:21:11 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Why Plan-9?
In-Reply-To: <20011022201921.10201.qmail@sidereal.kz>
Message-ID: 


On 22 Oct 2001, Dr. Evil wrote:

> "Built-in crypto" is a big overstatement for OpenBSD.  Unfortunately,
> Win 2000 has more built-in crypto than OpenBSD does.  Hint: Try to
> create an encrypted FS on OpenBSD.  [...]

dd if=/dev/zero of=diskimage bs=1024k count=1024
vnconfig -ck svnd0 diskimage
[enter a passphrase]
newfs /dev/svnd0c
mount /dev/svnd0c /mnt


-- 
mailto:zem at zip.com.au F289 2BDB 1DA0 F4C4 DC87 EC36 B2E3 4E75 C853 FD93
http://zem.squidly.org/ "I'm invisible, I'm invisible, I'm invisible.."




From juancarlos at memorykings.net  Tue Oct 23 08:21:53 2001
From: juancarlos at memorykings.net (juancarlos at memorykings.net)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:21:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: King Interactive Distributors
Message-ID: <200110231521.LAA27047@smtp2.fdn.com>



King Interactive distributors Pricelist Update 10-18-01		

Ifeel Logitech mouse new retail box	$16 	
First wheel mouse Logitech	$7 	
Roadgear car amp 250 watt.	$35 	
Ant-Boosters & waveguards combos	$0.94 	
Remote control extenders Recotons	$12 	
Flash cards 		
16 mb	$13.50 	11
32 mb	$15.50 	18
64 mb	$32 	
		
Usb flash card reader & writer	$20 	
Netgear 20 port switch	$200 	
software pc anywhere	$3.95 	
Spy softwhere	$3.95 	
Epson stylus printers 777	$55 
Memory	
128 mb pc 133	$12 
256 mb pc 133	$21 
Hewlett Packard scanjet 5100c	$30 
	
All prices are negotiable	

juancarlos at memorykings.net	
King Interactive Distributors.	
5450 S. State rd 7 #11	
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl 33314	
Toll Free 1-866-218-1263	
Fax 954-584-2905	




From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Tue Oct 23 09:23:25 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:23:25 -0500
Subject: Farm Out! (was Re: Retribution not enough)
References: 
	  <3BD4644D.95C0AF5D@cybershamanix.com> <3BD46A4B.AB07AD02@acmenet.net>
	  <3BD47B14.C083DE15@cybershamanix.com> <3BD496D8.AEF5EED2@acmenet.net>
	  <3BD4A680.31B403@cybershamanix.com>
	  <3.0.6.32.20011022211408.0082d140@pop.sprynet.com> <001401c15b80$be0318a0$0100a8c0@mshome.net>
Message-ID: <3BD59978.3E53ED1A@cybershamanix.com>


Neil Johnson wrote:

> Some will use "old" tech (seem my earlier message about using line shafts to
> power machines as long as no electricity is used (yeah, yeah they use
> electricity to heat the glow plug, go figure).

     Again, the idea is to be disconnected from any central source by which you
can be controlled, manipulated, etc. An excellent premise, BTW.


--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver at cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html





From MUENCHJ at RJRT.com  Tue Oct 23 08:24:21 2001
From: MUENCHJ at RJRT.com (Muench, Joyce P.)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:24:21 -0400
Subject: FW: FW: BUSINESS PROPOSAL/PARTNERSHIP
Message-ID: <17FB7B0AEB2FD311A8A70020484033DB0C7181D2@WSEXCH1.rjr.com>

Thought you might be interested in the following e-mail I received.


> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From:	felix james [SMTP:felixjames at onebox.com]
> > > > > Sent:	Friday, October 12, 2001 10:09 PM
> > > > > To:	MuenchJ at RJRT.com
> > > > > Subject:	BUSINESS PROPOSAL/PARTNERSHIP
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > ATTN:Joyce Muench 
> > > > > 
> > > > > FROM:Dr.Felix james,
> > > > > 
> > > > > First, I must solicit your strictest
> > confidence in
> > > > this transaction,this
> > > > > is by virtue of it's nature as being utterly
> > > > confidential
> > > > > and top secret.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Study this portion carefully and advice
> > > > categorically, if you will be
> > > > > able to handle, as I might not want to be
> > exposed
> > > > of the information
> > > > >   considering the source and reputation of my
> > > > name.
> > > > > 
> > > > > I am the Director of project and the newly
> > > > appointed chairman, contract
> > > > > reviewing committee(CRC) of the Federal
> > ministry
> > > > of Works and Housing
> > > > > (FMW&H) in Lagos, Nigeria. I am seeking your
> > > > assistance to enable 
> > > > > me transfer the sum of US $17,000,000.00 into
> > your
> > > > account for mutual
> > > > > benefits.
> > > > > 
> > > > > This money came about as a result of a
> > contract
> > > > executed on behalf of
> > > > > my Ministry, the (Federal Ministry of Works
> > and
> > > > Housing). This contract
> > > > > was officially assigned to be awarded and
> > executed
> > > > by two foreign contractors
> > > > >  at the tune of US$80,500,000.00, but in the
> > > > course of our negotiation,
> > > > > we bargained with only one foreign contractor,
> > a
> > > > Bulgarian firm which
> > > > > now executed the contract at the cost of
> > > > US$63,500,000.00. Thus leaving
> > > > > the remaining US$17M to our (members of the
> > CRP )
> > > > benefits unknown to
> > > > > the contractor and any other person in my
> > > > Ministry.
> > > > > 
> > > > >  This contract has been satisfactorily
> > executed
> > > > and inspected as the
> > > > > Bulgarian firm is presently securing his
> > payment
> > > > from my Ministry. It
> > > > > is however to this effect that I seek your
> > maximum
> > > > assistance and approval
> > > > > to present your company name alongside with
> > the
> > > > Bulgarian contractor
> > > > > as the second foreign contractor to enable me
> > > > > transfer the difference(US$17M) into your
> > account
> > > > for  further investment
> > > > > depending on your advice. On actualization of
> > the
> > > > transaction,the funds
> > > > > will be shared thus:
> > > > > 
> > > > > 1.  30% of the money go to you for acting as
> > the
> > > > beneficiary of the funds.
> > > > > 
> > > > > 2. 10% for reimbursement to both parties for
> > > > incidental expenses that
> > > > > may be incurred in the course of the
> > transaction
> > > > for insurance, phone
> > > > > bills, documentation etc
> > > > > 
> > > > > 3.  60%to me.
> > > > > 
> > > > > All logistics are in place and all modalities
> > > > worked out for the smooth
> > > > > actualization of the transaction within
> > fourteen
> > > > working days of commencement
> > > > > after receiving the following information by
> > fax:
> > > > Your
> > > > > company's name, address, phone/fax numbers and
> > the
> > > > activities of your
> > > > > company.
> > > > > 
> > > > > The above information will enable me make
> > > > application and lodge claims
> > > > > to concerned Ministries in favour of your
> > company
> > > > or name and it is pertinent
> > > > > to state here that this deal is entirely based
> > on
> > > > trust and the fear
> > > > > of God. If you are able to handle this, feel
> > free
> > > > to reach  at felixjames at onebox.com
> > > > > for a  perfectunderstanding of the
> > transaction.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Thanks in anticipation of your positive
> > response.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Yours faithfully
> > > > > 
> > > > > Dr. Felix james
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > felix james
> > > > > felixjames at onebox.com - email
> > > > > (718) 404-3905 x8385 - voicemail/fax
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > >
> > __________________________________________________
> > > > > FREE voicemail, email, and fax...all in one
> > place.
> > > > > Sign Up Now! http://www.onebox.com
> > > > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE:  This e-mail message,
> > > > including any attachment(s), contains
> > information
> > > > that may be confidential, protected by the
> > > > attorney-client or other legal privileges,
> > and/or
> > > > proprietary non-public information.  If you are
> > not
> > > > an intended recipient of this message or an
> > > > authorized assistant to an intended recipient,
> > > > please notify the sender by replying to this
> > message
> > > > and then delete it from your system.  Use,
> > > > dissemination, distribution, or reproduction of
> > this
> > > > message and/or any of its attachments (if any)
> > by
> > > > unintended recipients is not authorized and may
> > be
> > > > unlawful.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > 
> === message truncated ===> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE:  This
> e-mail message,
> > including any attachment(s), contains information
> > that may be confidential, protected by the
> > attorney-client or other legal privileges, and/or
> > proprietary non-public information.  If you are not
> > an intended recipient of this message or an
> > authorized assistant to an intended recipient,
> > please notify the sender by replying to this message
> > and then delete it from your system.  Use,
> > dissemination, distribution, or reproduction of this
> > message and/or any of its attachments (if any) by
> > unintended recipients is not authorized and may be
> > unlawful.
> > 
> > 
-------------- next part --------------
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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Tue Oct 23 09:42:27 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:42:27 -0500
Subject: Farm Out! (was Re: Retribution not enough)
References: <7C992CE9-C77E-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <3BD59DEE.5B9ECA5B@cybershamanix.com>


Tim May wrote:

> On Monday, October 22, 2001, at 11:05 PM, Harmon Seaver wrote:
> >      Ish! I'm getting bummed with NS, but wouldn't use IE on a bet. Why
> > use a
> > virus magnet?
>
> The virii are typically executables for x86/Windows machines, not Macs.
> You said you were using a Mac, so why do you think IE for the Mac
> exposes you to virii?

      I used to have a web page with a simple dos command that would
immediately crash any windoze machine running IE. While I realize that all
the viri and such are aimed at windoze boxes, not Macs, given the general
insecurity of IE in particular, and M$ products overall (for instance, Word
and others ID'ing you secretly in the documents) who knows what all it does?
I'm amazed, in fact, that someone like you, Tim, would use it. Do you know
for sure what it sends back to M$ central, or perhaps, gasp, even to the
fedz?

>
>
> >  But then, I don't use any other M$ product either, it's all
> > third rate.
>
> Religious nonsense. I tend to avoid MS products because I can get good
> alternatives for very little money, but few would call Microsoft Office
> "third rate." I've seen the version for OS X and it looks very good.
> Maybe "1.5" rate, but not second rate and surely not third rate.
>

       StarOffice is a lot better. Opensource, for one thing (although I
know the Mac version was dropped and the OS X version not quite ready yet,
but the linux version rocks), and doesn't get macroviri in any version.
Again, why would you use something that ID's everything you write? But if
you really want a great word processor, try XyWrite. Too bad the law firm
that bought it dropped the ball on development, but the Notabene version is
going strong, and is the ultimate wp AFAIC.  http://www.notabene.com/
No mac version, or linux version, but I run Xywrite under VirtualPC on the
Mac, and under VMware on linux.


--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver at cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html




From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Tue Oct 23 09:49:22 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:49:22 -0500
Subject: USPS:  glowing by leaps and bounds
References: <20011023042357.A4290@navel.introspect>
Message-ID: <3BD59F8C.46CBDAFD@cybershamanix.com>


      Shit, so much for ordering mushroom spores by mail! Hopefully UPS
and fedex won't follow suit.

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver at cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Tue Oct 23 12:15:31 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 12:15:31 -0700
Subject: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds
  )
Message-ID: <3BD5C1D3.FBD76E8@lsil.com>


> Shit, so much for ordering mushroom spores by mail! 
> Hopefully UPS and fedex won't follow suit.
>
Another option might be for each package to be dropped into a poly bag,
heat sealed and rinsed before being handled by staff. 

Our society has, for all practical purposes, endless vulnerabilities. If
as each vulnerability is exploited we plan on taking drastic steps to
secure it from future exploitation, the costs will be staggering and the
list of unsecured items will hardly diminish. The result of the current
approach is an authoritarian society with a neverending, self-justifying
security project ahead of it. Sounds like a wonderful place to live if
you're an insect.

Mike




From auto301094 at hushmail.com  Tue Oct 23 12:20:03 2001
From: auto301094 at hushmail.com (auto301094 at hushmail.com)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 12:20:03 -0700
Subject: Cypherpunks idiots list
Message-ID: <200110231920.f9NJK3f26638@mailserver1c.hushmail.com>

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From mmotyka at lsil.com  Tue Oct 23 12:33:01 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 12:33:01 -0700
Subject: FBI considers torture as suspects stay silent
Message-ID: <3BD5C5ED.188B0A2E@lsil.com>


Declan McCullagh  wrote :
>On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 08:50:01PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
>> Yes, but this is one of those manufactured, utterly implausible 
>> situations. I cannot think of a single instance where a suspect had this 
>> kind of knowledge, with this kind of stakes, and with this kind of "next 
>> three hours" timetable. Even relaxing each item by a factor of 10...I 
>> can't think of any such examples.
>
>Neither can I. My intention was not to suggest that it's acceptable to
>rip out the accused's toenails, slowly, but to suggest that this is
>the kind of scenario that we may hear politicians talking about in short
>order. 
>
>-Declan
>
I wonder what orders our raiders have in regards prisoners?

While we're debating what may or may not happen here my guess is that
the decision about what to do with captured al Quaeda or Taliban
higher-ups on the battlefield was decided long ago. The interrogators
and their bags of tricks are ready for subjects. We have to know what
they know.

Mike




From jya at pipeline.com  Tue Oct 23 12:33:01 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 12:33:01 -0700
Subject: WSJ on Safety Before Liberty
Message-ID: <200110231639.MAA03877@barry.mail.mindspring.net>


Continuing to beat the drum, today's Wall Street Journal
offers two essays on how much liberty to give up for safety.

One, an Op-Ed by a historian, recounts how in the past the 
United States Presidents have imposed draconian wartime 
draconian security measures and trashed civil liberties far
more than anything currently contemplated, naming Adams, 
Lincoln, Franklin Roosevelt, among others. But claims that 
after the crises passed civil liberties were restored "stronger 
than ever." So fear not what is in the offing.

The second, by a WSJ columnist, argues that enough is
too much, that the Bush Administration halt curtailment
of civil liberties, and that the sunset provisions of current 
anti-terrorism proposals are a good thing. 

These wafflings are diabolical apologies for what Bush
coupers are up to, offerings of amelioration to disarm
critics. Woolsey, Stew Baker, Bork, the WSJ, the host of oilers
and greasers of anti-terrorist power grabbing through 
crisis-mongering need -- how to say it in safety without
sacrificing liberty -- need typhoid mary cigarring, oops, 
need fifi's homestead featherdusting. 




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Tue Oct 23 09:34:29 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 12:34:29 -0400
Subject: Ananova - US researchers discover artificial sperm
References: <3BD4DDCE.7945117B@ssz.com> <3BD4E021.EFEFE74F@acmenet.net>
  <20011023110741.E22019@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <3BD59C15.3E60228@acmenet.net>


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> It is, of course, unfair to paint Nadine Strossen with the same brush
> you'd use with Andrea Dworkin.


> On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 11:12:33PM -0400, Steve Furlong wrote:

> > Well, shit, don't let Andrea Dworkin or Nadine Strossen find out, or
> > we're all done for!


You're absolutely right. I meant Kim Gandy, the president of NOW, not
Nadine Strossen. My apologies to Ms Strossen. I don't know what I was
thinking, to confuse their names. My only excuse is that I'd been awake
too many hours.


SRF


-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From georgemw at speakeasy.net  Tue Oct 23 12:39:18 2001
From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 12:39:18 -0700
Subject: eWe Won't Have CJ Parker and Richard NIxon To Kick Around 
  AnyMore...
In-Reply-To: <3BD5B336.78CB306E@acmenet.net>
Message-ID: <3BD564F6.18214.FD26EF@localhost>


On 23 Oct 2001, at 14:13, Steve Furlong wrote:

> Declan McCullagh wrote:
> > 
> > On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 11:32:19PM -0400, Steve Furlong wrote:
> > > I can't sympathise much on this basis. A family member, a retired cop
> > > and the family shame, confirmed what I had suspected: that most people
> > > in jail are there because they couldn't keep their mouths shut --- on
> > 
> > Um, no. Many are there because they're (gasp) "drug criminals."
> 
> Oh, certainly. I should have left my post the way I first wrote it:
> "most criminals in jail...", distinguishing murderers and such from
> people who voluntarily use drugs and those who supply them.
> 
> How about this version: Most malem in se convicts are in prison because
> they couldn't keep their mouths shut.
> 

Actually, I think you were right the first time.  We may feel 
symapthy for the malum prohibido convicts and contempt for
the in se ones,  but odds are pretty good that a convict
of either catgeory is likely to be complicit in his own convition.
In fact, small quantity non violent drug offenders are probably
among the most likely to fall for the "we'll go easier on
you if we cooperate" line.

George  
> -- 
> Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
>   617-670-3793
> 
> "Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
> while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From newdomfact at mail.com  Tue Oct 23 11:09:49 2001
From: newdomfact at mail.com (NewDomainFactory.com)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 13:09:49 -0500
Subject: important .INFO registration details 
Message-ID: <200110231809.f9NI9m008303@ak47.algebra.com>


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From zem at zip.com.au  Mon Oct 22 20:38:02 2001
From: zem at zip.com.au (zem)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 13:38:02 +1000 (EST)
Subject: openbsd encrypted fs
In-Reply-To: <20011023014507.4141.qmail@sidereal.kz>
Message-ID: 


On 23 Oct 2001, Dr. Evil wrote:

> > vnconfig -ck svnd0 diskimage
[...]
>
> I am aware of that, but it's a hack, and it doesn't work well.  For
> example, it has no way of detecting when you enter an incorrect
> password.

Sure.  Just noting that the capability is there, since it's easy to
overlook.  It works reliably in my experience.

> Anyway, for an OS which prides itself on built-in crypto,
> why do we have to mess around with loopback?  There are many FS
> features, such as being able to change read, write end execute perms
> for owner, group and root, which don't require a loopback FS.  How is
> this any different from that?  If it were really integrated crypto, I
> would be able to do
>
> mount -k /dev/sd0c

This I don't understand.

Can you describe a scenario under which an encrypted fs is valuable enough
to justify typing one command, but not two?  OpenBSD's target audience is
not exactly clueless newbies.

Or is speed so important that you'd sacrifice security?  Any encrypted fs
will take a performance hit; I think you'll find loopback overhead is
insignificant next to the crypto.

> and it would do the right thing.  Even better, I would be prompted for
> a password during boot so it could boot from an encrypted fs.

Is booting from an encrypted fs ever useful?  Use read-only media if
tampering is a concern.  Configure and mount other encrypted filesystems
from /etc/rc.  If you can install and maintain OpenBSD, you can manage
that.

> This is a glaring hole in OpenBSD's crypt-everywhere mantra.

It's worth noting their primary goal is network security, not crypto.
Rubber hoses don't factor significantly in their threat model.


-- 
mailto:zem at zip.com.au F289 2BDB 1DA0 F4C4 DC87 EC36 B2E3 4E75 C853 FD93
http://zem.squidly.org/ "I'm invisible, I'm invisible, I'm invisible.."




From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Tue Oct 23 11:40:16 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 13:40:16 -0500
Subject: Cypherpunks idiots list
References: <3e6e21eb9ccfd4723fc3f7c95930da94@dizum.com>
Message-ID: <3BD5B985.4A4E87A2@cybershamanix.com>


      And the others that didn't even get mentioned -- what category do
you rate them? So are we idiots supposed to feel crushed by this and
slink away, never to be heard from again?
     Or should we just try harder? Or maybe simply
double/triple/quadruple  the volume of our posts to achieve eminence?
      I guess I'm not seeing the relevance, since you don't have the
balls to do this openly.

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver at cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Tue Oct 23 14:10:08 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 14:10:08 -0700
Subject: Conman, quantum entaglement and no cat
Message-ID: 


C'punks,

Penn says Copperfield's trick is "Right out of the books."  He goes on to
say that it's just a matter of presentation.  But we all knew that, right?


 S a n d y




From remailer at remailer.xganon.com  Tue Oct 23 12:12:55 2001
From: remailer at remailer.xganon.com (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 14:12:55 -0500
Subject: anon
Message-ID: <2aba65a2c01d6d08eb9994bda4b48391@remailer.xganon.com>


Does this remailer work anymore?




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Tue Oct 23 11:13:10 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 14:13:10 -0400
Subject: eWe Won't Have CJ Parker and Richard NIxon To Kick Around
  AnyMore...
References: <002601c15b63$09069200$5f0da2cd@vaio>
  <3BD4E4C3.3412AAAC@acmenet.net> <20011023110557.D22019@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <3BD5B336.78CB306E@acmenet.net>


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 11:32:19PM -0400, Steve Furlong wrote:
> > I can't sympathise much on this basis. A family member, a retired cop
> > and the family shame, confirmed what I had suspected: that most people
> > in jail are there because they couldn't keep their mouths shut --- on
> 
> Um, no. Many are there because they're (gasp) "drug criminals."

Oh, certainly. I should have left my post the way I first wrote it:
"most criminals in jail...", distinguishing murderers and such from
people who voluntarily use drugs and those who supply them.

How about this version: Most malem in se convicts are in prison because
they couldn't keep their mouths shut.

-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Tue Oct 23 12:21:27 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 14:21:27 -0500
Subject: Cypherpunks idiots list
References: <3e6e21eb9ccfd4723fc3f7c95930da94@dizum.com>
Message-ID: <3BD5C32A.E4B62042@cybershamanix.com>


     Rather amusing, when you think about it. Obviously the guy is too
clueless to figure out how to use any sort of filter or killfile.

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver at cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html




From hakkin at sarin.com  Tue Oct 23 14:23:53 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 14:23:53 -0700
Subject: Is there a subway in DC?
Message-ID: <3BD5DFE9.38E3277A@sarin.com>


And why are NYC prison^H^H^H^H^H^Hinhabitants
still taking subways?

http://books.nap.edu/books/0309068495/html/223.html#pagetop




From utopia_alive at yahoo.com  Tue Oct 23 14:28:08 2001
From: utopia_alive at yahoo.com (super ego)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 14:28:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.
Message-ID: <20011023212808.68176.qmail@web14911.mail.yahoo.com>


That to secure these rights, Governments are
instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from
the consent of the governed.

That whenever any Form of Government becomes
destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the
People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new
Government, laying its foundation on such principles
and organizing its powers in such form, as to them
shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and
Happiness. 

Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long
established should not be changed for light and
transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath
shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while
evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by
abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. 

But when a long train of abuses and usurpations,
pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design
to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their
right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government,
and to provide new Guards for their future security. 

Thomas Jefferson




We the people of this country we can do this if all
our freedoms are taken away by the government. We are
allowed to ask for reform if our country goes bad.

How much longer will we let the government pick off
our right?

If we let it continue our country will become just
like england right now!







__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
http://personals.yahoo.com




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Tue Oct 23 11:40:53 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 14:40:53 -0400
Subject: Cypherpunks idiots list
References: <3e6e21eb9ccfd4723fc3f7c95930da94@dizum.com>
Message-ID: <3BD5B9B5.3D66AB0F@acmenet.net>


Nomen Nescio wrote:
> 
> Posters to the cypherpunks list can be divided into idiots and others.
...
> The lists below can't cover everyone, but here is a sampling of recent
> posters.  Note: if you are an idiot, you may not like being informed
> of this fact.  Nevertheless you will find few non-idiots who will disagree
> with your classification.  Go ahead and ask for anyone on the non-idiots
> list to vouch for you, if you have the balls.

I don't think my self-esteem will be greatly damaged by someone without
the balls to attach his own name to his message. When Tim called for a
fatwah against me a year ago, following a misunderstanding about
something I wrote, he at least had the balls to do so over his own name.

And now that I think about it, there's no real indication that you are a
"someone". Quite likely you're just a dumbassbot hiding behind an
anonymizer.

-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Tue Oct 23 12:09:05 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 15:09:05 -0400
Subject: Cypherpunks idiots list
References: <3e6e21eb9ccfd4723fc3f7c95930da94@dizum.com>
Message-ID: <3BD5C051.C88EE514@acmenet.net>


Nomen Nescio wrote:
> 
> Posters to the cypherpunks list can be divided into idiots and others.

Something I forgot to mention: "Nomen Nescio" certainly belongs on the
idiots list. There are an awful lot of really stupid messages coming
from Nomen.

(For the irony impaired, yes, I am aware that many anonymizer users come
under the NN nym.)


-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From jmpeck at mail.pittstate.edu  Tue Oct 23 13:59:44 2001
From: jmpeck at mail.pittstate.edu (Josh Peck)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 15:59:44 -0500
Subject: Cypherpunks idiots list
References: <3e6e21eb9ccfd4723fc3f7c95930da94@dizum.com>
  <3BD5B985.4A4E87A2@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <3BD5DA40.4080804@mail.pittstate.edu>


I very rarely post, so I am reveling in my mediocrity...

-josh

Harmon Seaver wrote:

>       And the others that didn't even get mentioned -- what category do
> you rate them? So are we idiots supposed to feel crushed by this and
> slink away, never to be heard from again?
>      Or should we just try harder? Or maybe simply
> double/triple/quadruple  the volume of our posts to achieve eminence?
>       I guess I'm not seeing the relevance, since you don't have the
> balls to do this openly.
> 
> --
> Harmon Seaver, MLIS
> CyberShamanix
> Work 920-203-9633
> Home 920-233-5820
> hseaver at cybershamanix.com
> http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html




From tcmay at got.net  Tue Oct 23 16:31:06 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 16:31:06 -0700
Subject: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and
  bounds)
In-Reply-To: <3BD5F6D4.19EDB98B@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <0829EAB7-C80E-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Tuesday, October 23, 2001, at 04:02 PM, Harmon Seaver wrote:

> mmotyka at lsil.com wrote:
>
>> Our society has, for all practical purposes, endless vulnerabilities. 
>> If
>> as each vulnerability is exploited we plan on taking drastic steps to
>> secure it from future exploitation, the costs will be staggering and 
>> the
>> list of unsecured items will hardly diminish. The result of the current
>> approach is an authoritarian society with a neverending, 
>> self-justifying
>> security project ahead of it. Sounds like a wonderful place to live if
>> you're an insect.
>>
>
>         The really weird thing about this whole anthrax scene is that 
> all
> the spores seem to be of the Ames variety, which is a militarized 
> anthrax
> developed in Ames, Iowa. It really seems suspicious to me that these 
> are of
> domestic origin -- bin Ladin or whoever would be in all likelihood be 
> using
> a Russian variety or an Iraqi subset.

You are astoundingly misinformed, or are just plain lazy.

One minute spent searching on "anthrax ames" will disabuse the clueful 
of the mistakes made above.

The Ames strain is _not_ "militarized anthrax."

Get a fucking clue.

--Tim May
"Ben Franklin warned us that those who would trade liberty for a little 
bit of temporary security deserve neither. This is the path we are now 
racing down, with American flags fluttering."-- Tim May, on events 
following 9/11/2001




From wolf at priori.net  Tue Oct 23 16:56:35 2001
From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 16:56:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Why Plan-9?
In-Reply-To: <20011021171843.A2205@navel.introspect>
Message-ID: 


On Sun, 21 Oct 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote:

> Summer, June/July, IIRC.  I've done a couple of look-ups since.  There's
> been little additional news or information (I'm not saying none, I'm
> saying little).  OpenBSD, a relatively little-known free 'nix, gets
> rather more press and community coverage.

Little-known? That's unfair. OpenBSD is a fairly well known operating
system, among the members of its target audience.

> Poor licensing choices are one of several key modes of failure for free
> software projects.  If Plan 9 procedes forward, I expect to see another
> two or three significant licensing revisions.

Explain the popularity of Unix, then.


-MW-




From wolf at priori.net  Tue Oct 23 16:59:52 2001
From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 16:59:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <20011020130855.G2044@navel.introspect>
Message-ID: 


On Sat, 20 Oct 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote:

> on Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 12:56:02PM -0700, Giovanna Imbesi (pho at tuttomedia.com) wrote:
> > Last night my friend and I stopped at a Venice club/bar.  At the door
> > they were doing the normal ID check, but then took my driver's license
> > and swiped it into a little Palm-like device...and all the info popped
> > up on the screen.  I was startled, amused and outraged all at the same
> > time.  My friend knows the new owners of the building and told me that
> > the owners had rented part of the upstairs space to a guy with a youth
> > marketing company, also coincidentally a long-time friend of his.
> > What are they doing with this information?  I've been wondering what
> > real implications a national ID card would present and here was a
> > clear example of potential abuse.  Is this even legal? Aren't they
> > authorized to check date-of-birth but no more?  Is it legal to retain
> > the data?  What data is stored in the magnetic stripe on a California
> > driver's license - name, address, DOB, license #, and signature?

A friend of mine recently informed me that he has access to a mag-strip
reader, and scanned several drivers' licenses (as well as Safeway cards
and other random credit-card like items.)

Most contained the information displayed on the front of the card, and/or
some seemingly random numbers (most likely, the ID numbers.)

California DL's have nothing interesting stored in that magstrip that
isn't on the front of the card. And no, the signature isn't reflected in
the magstrip.


-MW-




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Oct 23 15:13:38 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 17:13:38 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Why Plan-9 licensing?
In-Reply-To: <20011022005432.B7384@navel.introspect>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote:

> The trend in free software licensing has been strong reluctance to
> accepting novel licenses.

Right, that's why there are so many of them out there...

> > Interaction for who, the author or the user? 
> 
> Interaction between licenses.  It's more overhead for the developer to
> deal with. 

Interaction between licenses for who?...

You're using a flawed model. There are three 'roles'; author, distributor,
user. Any license must interact with all three roles. The fact is that the
license doesn't effect the developer nearly as much as the distributor and
the end user. You're only looking at a single layer of interactions.

There is another aspect you're completely ignoring, unless one license
prohibits(!) use with another license the interaction (outside of "Can I
make money off it?") is nil - both for developers and users.

> > All license start out in the minority. It's a competition in a way.
> 
> What are you competing for? What characteristic of a license will "win"
> the competition?

Utility, which license brings the maximum benefit to all three roles.

> This isn't software domination,

Yes, it is.

> it's more a protocol for collaborative development. Once you've got that 
> nailed down, stop dicking with the damned lawyers, and start writing code.

One shoe doesn't fit all.



 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Tue Oct 23 17:24:02 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 17:24:02 -0700
Subject: USPS:  glowing by leaps and bounds
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011023083138.0083c580@pop.sprynet.com>; from
  honig@sprynet.com on Tue, Oct 23, 2001 at 08:31:38AM -0700
References: <20011023042357.A4290@navel.introspect>
  <3.0.6.32.20011023083138.0083c580@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <20011023172401.A16631@navel.introspect>


on Tue, Oct 23, 2001 at 08:31:38AM -0700, David Honig (honig at sprynet.com)
wrote:
> At 04:23 AM 10/23/01 -0700, Karsten M. Self wrote:
> >Any pointers on packaging for photographic and/or magnetic media through
> >mail to survive irradiation equipment?  How about the magstrips on all
> >those credit cards issued through the mail?
> >
>
> Forget that, how about seeds and seedlings?  What will Burpee do?

OTOH, futures for nuclear winter wheat are strong.

--
Karsten M. Self        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?             Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Oct 23 15:46:58 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 17:46:58 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: fanaticism, left anarchists, and CACLing
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011021221329.021c4910@pop.gmx.net>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Luthor Blisset wrote:

> [1] They don't like either corporate or state centralization of power, but 
> neither do you, right? Right...? AFIAK, Left-anarchists and CACL types 
> oppose corporate and governmental centralization of power - it's just that 
> the left-anarchists focus on corporate power, and CACL types focus on 
> government power... And corporations can't exist without the state.

The whole bunch of you miss the point that these are MECHANISMS. 'They'
don't do anything. People use the concepts to do things to each other.

And yes, corporations (ie agreements or contracts) can exist without a
state. Governments however can't exist without a cash flow.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Oct 23 15:48:46 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 17:48:46 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: <3BD40150.4BF0BC75@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Ken Brown wrote:

> David Honig wrote:
> 
> > No one forces a farmer to the city to look for an industrial job.
> 
> In general, no.

Bull, the people who don't purchase his goods at a price point he can
sustain himself do in fact force him into other lines of work. 'Supply and
demand' and 'Market force' are synonymous.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Tue Oct 23 17:51:19 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 17:51:19 -0700
Subject: Why Plan-9 licensing?
In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@einstein.ssz.com on Tue, Oct 23, 2001 at 05:13:38PM -0500
References: <20011022005432.B7384@navel.introspect> 
Message-ID: <20011023175119.B16631@navel.introspect>

on Tue, Oct 23, 2001 at 05:13:38PM -0500, Jim Choate (ravage at einstein.ssz.com) wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote:
> 
> > The trend in free software licensing has been strong reluctance to
> > accepting novel licenses.
> 
> Right, that's why there are so many of them out there...

Noting, as above, the majority having very low adoption.

> > > Interaction for who, the author or the user? 
> > 
> > Interaction between licenses.  It's more overhead for the developer
> > to deal with. 
> 
> Interaction between licenses for who?...
> 
> You're using a flawed model. There are three 'roles'; author,
> distributor, user. Any license must interact with all three roles. The
> fact is that the license doesn't effect the developer nearly as much
> as the distributor and the end user. You're only looking at a single
> layer of interactions.

I'm primarially looking at author/developer interactions.  However, all
actors are considered.

Distributors are concerned with licensing -- this is generally the
exposure point for commercial liability, and high-profile distributors
will have an aversion to novel or obscure licenses.  To this extent,
licensing is somewhat like cryptography:  well established, well
understood licenses which have stood the test of time, are considered
lower risk.  Again, corporate licenses tend to speak to ghosts in the
corporate closet (IBM:  Patents, Sun:  compatibility and standards
control, Corel:  Canadian law).

Another advantage of selecting a widely use license is that it aquires a
strong institutional resistence to sudden change.  In the DJB instance
cited previously, and the IPFilters licensing "revision" which also
effected OpenBSD, licenses which were authored at the sole discretion of
a single user were unilateraly modified, or had their interpretation
unilaterally changed, to terms not acceptable for broader use.  This is
less likely where a broader constuency is represented.  The authorship /
revision issue is one I've put some thought to, there are a few possible
solutions.

> There is another aspect you're completely ignoring, unless one license
> prohibits(!) use with another license the interaction (outside of "Can
> I make money off it?") is nil - both for developers and users.

Free software largely precludes significant revenue streams from
software sales.  Not always -- Red Hat continues to generate significant
revenues from box and corporate sales, though it is moving to a
subscription (Red Carpet) and services model.  Still, in large part,
your benefit is going to come from indirect revenues:  services,
hardware, publications (e.g.: O'Reilly).   Eric Raymond's list from CatB
still largely stands.

In this case, appeal to developers is *quite* significant, as this
distributes your cost structure effectively to unaffiliated partners.
This particular lesson is one that a large number of free software
businesses (including the one I was affiliated with for 18 months) fail
to grasp.  There's little specific benefit in direct control of code.
IBM, incidentally, is a company that Seems To Get It(tm).

Users, similarly, should be concerned with long term viability of code.
A project with a single sponsor, and one with troubling financial
prospects to boot, doesn't gain much credibility despite their "free
software" status.  Licensing compatibility emphasizes the inherent "code
escrow" powers of free software licensing by providing the possibility
that the compelling features of the project might be continued, or at
least incorporated into another project, should the initial sponsor
fail.

> > > All license start out in the minority. It's a competition in a way.
> > 
> > What are you competing for? What characteristic of a license will "win"
> > the competition?
> 
> Utility, which license brings the maximum benefit to all three roles.

Which is served by a mix of factors, significant among them, license
compatibility.

> > This isn't software domination,
> 
> Yes, it is.

No.  Software itself competes on a different level.  It's influenced by
the licensing, but isn't fully dictated by this.  Poor license choice
can severly hamper adoption, development, use, and credibility.

> > it's more a protocol for collaborative development. Once you've got
> > that nailed down, stop dicking with the damned lawyers, and start
> > writing code.
> 
> One shoe doesn't fit all.

There are a good four or five well established "shoes" (GPL, LGPL,
BSD/MIT, Mozilla, IBM PSL) which serve a broad range of needs, with a
pretty good track record for interoperability.

But that's just one idiot to another.

Peace.

-- 
Karsten M. Self        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?             Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html
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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Oct 23 15:58:35 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 17:58:35 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Sampo Syreeni wrote:

> On Sat, 20 Oct 2001, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> >> * "Low wage" compared to _what_?
> >
> >What it takes to have reasonable living standards and sufficient resources
> >to help ones children do better than themselves.
> 
> Reasonable? Well, compared to dying of malnutrition, anything is
> "reasonable". After that, it's mostly a matter of letting economic growth
> do its deed.

Then you agree that their conditions aren't reasonable.

As to 'economic growth', that implies you have either the time or the
place to look for alternatives. These are not universal, especially in a
market where some parties act with intent to restrain other parties.

> >Because if the producers allow this behaviour they put themselves out of
> >business.
> 
> OTOH, dismal civil rights conditions make a country a hostile, high risk
> environment to investment capital. 

Read the first two para's of the DoI as to why this isn't as big an issue
as you might think, provided you get out early enough.

> That gives a reasonable incentive to the government/dictator to do something
> about those rights violations.

Yeah, like keeping them around just one more year so we can put just that 
much more in the treasury.

Historically dictators and such have not(!) acted to improve their
citizens lot in life, if the citizens get any improvement it's because
the powers that be recognize the situation and are hoping to stabilize it 
(so that their income streams are stabalized). They're not doing it for
the people, it's self-preservation.

> >If the market were open, it isn't. The reality is that the market is
> >controlled in such a way as to keep the status quo. This ensures the
> >political, social, and economics supremacy of a small minority at the
> >expense of the many.
> 
> And guess what? Part of globalization is getting the fundamental human
> rights and civil liberties infrastructure in place in these countries.

No it isn't. It's about getting the fundamental government-corporate
rights and civil liberties infrastructure in place in these countries.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org  Tue Oct 23 16:00:01 2001
From: anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org (Incognito Innominatus)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 18:00:01 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Conman, quantum entaglement and no cat
Message-ID: 


> Penn says Copperfield's trick is "Right out of the books."  He goes on to
> say that it's just a matter of presentation.  But we all knew that, right?

Of course.  A moment's thought will make it clear that the list which
was finally exhibited with the correct lottery numbers on it was not
the same list which was sitting in that guarded envelope all that time.
Somewhere along the way, in the process of opening the envelope, the
magician makes a switch.  It's the oldest trick in the book, or one of
them anyway.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Oct 23 16:01:23 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 18:01:23 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

> Inchoate gets it wrong again.  This is where that remedial reading course
> would come in handy.
> 
> He wrote:
> 
> > The very basis of free market economies,
> > one is rewarded FAIRLY for their efforts.
> 
> No, quite clearly the basis of free market economies is FREEDOM.  That's why
> they're called "FREE market economies" (not "FAIR market economies.")

And they can be 'free' ONLY if all parties act fairly. A player in a game
most certainly does NOT have a 'free' choice if one or more players are
cheating.

The bottom line, a choice can only be called 'free' if it is
unconstrained. That means that the party making it not only is
unconstrained but is informed of all(!) potential choices and outcomes.
Unfortunately the world isn't that clear, so we get constrained choices.
The question then becomes are they 'internal' or 'external' constraints.
If they are external then they are not 'fair' and the choices made under
those constraints can't be called 'free' under any rational definition of
'free' or 'rational'.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Tue Oct 23 16:02:04 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 18:02:04 -0500
Subject: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and
  bounds)
References: <3BD5C1D3.FBD76E8@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <3BD5F6D4.19EDB98B@cybershamanix.com>


mmotyka at lsil.com wrote:

> Our society has, for all practical purposes, endless vulnerabilities. If
> as each vulnerability is exploited we plan on taking drastic steps to
> secure it from future exploitation, the costs will be staggering and the
> list of unsecured items will hardly diminish. The result of the current
> approach is an authoritarian society with a neverending, self-justifying
> security project ahead of it. Sounds like a wonderful place to live if
> you're an insect.
>

        The really weird thing about this whole anthrax scene is that all
the spores seem to be of the Ames variety, which is a militarized anthrax
developed in Ames, Iowa. It really seems suspicious to me that these are of
domestic origin -- bin Ladin or whoever would be in all likelihood be using
a Russian variety or an Iraqi subset.
      You also have to consider the delivery -- not really what I would
suspect of a true terrorist group, and really pretty minor league in actual
damage. It really looks to me to be the work of fedzi provocateurs.
       But getting back to the "war of some terrorism" --- their whole
approach is wrong. You need to treat the source of the disease, not the
symptoms and the source is the hatred, often justifiable, of the terrorists
for Amerika.
       Instead, the big push is to bomb the shit out of Afghans -- creating
more hatred and little more -- and stomping the Constitution and civil
liberties here.
Sigh! Time to watch "Wag the Dog" again. And after that, "Brazil".


--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver at cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Oct 23 16:03:28 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 18:03:28 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: <3BD425FD.7C3C64CE@mozcom.com>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, F. Marc de Piolenc wrote:

> Elementary - fair is whatever the parties in interest agree to. Period. 

'agree' is synonymous with 'free' in this case. All you're doing is
playing word games and hand waving.

What does it mean to 'agree'? Is an agreement that one can backout of with
no consequences the same as an agreement where they break your leg if you
don't? Are those agreements the same? No.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Oct 23 16:07:04 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 18:07:04 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: <3BD46A4B.AB07AD02@acmenet.net>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Steve Furlong wrote:

> Then let them. A self-sufficient subsistence farmer won't be bothered by
> the trade his neighbors are carrying out. [1] His farm can be a
> neolithic bubble as the world progresses.

Bullshit, just wait until the first drought.

No man is an island, and no chunk of an ecosystem can be removed from that
around it. Your 'self-sufficiency' is a logical fantasy.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Oct 23 16:09:41 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 18:09:41 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: <20011022171142.A15104@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 12:35:21AM -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> > that their efforts are rewarded with an equitable share of the profits
> > their efforts created. The very basis of free market economies, one is
> 
> It's remarkable to see such contradictory views side-by-side and 
> called "free market economics." Ah, Choatian beliefs are a many-
> splendored thing.

They're not contradictory because the market they exist in now isn't
'free'. Just another example of your poor reasoning. Telling somebody
'quite taking advantage of that person' is not the same thing as 'give
that that or else'.

What is contradictory is to say one believes in a 'free market' and then
actively support a non-free market by such commentary as you provide
above. "If they don't like it, they can leave."; never mind they can't
leave. Very convenient that.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Oct 23 16:10:48 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 18:10:48 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 23 Oct 2001, Sampo Syreeni wrote:

> On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, David Honig wrote:
> 
> >Sure.  But unions work to make membership *compulsory*. They have other
> >legal privledges.
> 
> What can you say? People rent-seek. That's an axiom which also goes by the
> name of "rationality". So the problem is not the union, but the
> legislators and their backers.

No, the problem is people. Don't confuse what is happening and why, with
who is involved.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Oct 23 16:11:40 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 18:11:40 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: <3BD448FE.1739.102994A6@localhost>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Roy M. Silvernail wrote:

> I'm reminded of George O. Smith's "Venus Equilateral" stories, in 
> which invention of the replicator did end the economy, until a 
> substance was discovered ("Identium") that could not be replicated. 
>  It seems that markets appear whenever there is something of 
> perceived value to trade.

...and limited supply with respect to demand.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Oct 23 16:16:27 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 18:16:27 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

> Also, your argument makes no economic sense.  Against whom are these
> peasants competing?  Surely they can eat what they grow no matter how
> cheaply the "rapacious" factory farmers price their wares.

Actually it makes perfect sense, if you understand how a farm works. The
farmers are competing against the environment, their own limited knowledge
and resources, and time.

Do you seriously want to propose that a chicken craps a combine? That the
seeds for the various crop rotations simply drop from the sky like manna?
That it'll always rain just enough, and therefore there won't be a need
for irridation ditches down to the local crick? And what about all that
animal feed? And the wood for the fence posts and the wire for the wire? Now, 
how many people does that one person farm now need to hire in order to get
all the infrastructure and support services running, before we even get
around to feeding ourselves?

A self-sufficient farm is either a very low-tech endeavour (which reduces
your needs) or else it grows according to economy of scales.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Oct 23 16:18:45 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 18:18:45 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

> Tell that to the 7th kine.  In reality, subsistence (this word means
> something) farmers were mostly chronically malnourished--even in the good
> times--and died in droves whenever the sun didn't shine or the rain didn't
> fall.  I don't consider that doing "alright."

Surely they can eat what they grow...

Speaking from both ends once again.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From sandfort at mindspring.com  Tue Oct 23 18:28:47 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 18:28:47 -0700
Subject: DUNNINGER
Message-ID: 


C'punks,

Penn suggests reading Joseph Dunniger if you want to know how magic works.
One of Dunninger's books listed on Amazon.com is, Dunninger's Complete
Encyclopedia of Magic.


 S a n d y




From mstalbot at newsguy.com  Tue Oct 23 18:41:20 2001
From: mstalbot at newsguy.com (Mark Talbot)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 18:41:20 -0700
Subject: Anthrax Letters
Message-ID: <39485A58-C820-11D5-B898-0030657961FE@newsguy.com>


http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel01/102301.htm




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Oct 23 16:59:26 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 18:59:26 -0500
Subject: MATT DRUDGE // DRUDGE REPORT 2001
Message-ID: <3BD6045E.FD112C86@ssz.com>


http://www.drudgereport.com/matth2.htm

-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From honig at sprynet.com  Tue Oct 23 19:32:55 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 19:32:55 -0700
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3BD40150.4BF0BC75@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011023193255.00844620@pop.sprynet.com>


At 05:48 PM 10/23/01 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
>On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Ken Brown wrote:
>
>> David Honig wrote:
>> 
>> > No one forces a farmer to the city to look for an industrial job.
>> 
>> In general, no.
>
>Bull, the people who don't purchase his goods at a price point he can
>sustain himself do in fact force him into other lines of work. 'Supply and
>demand' and 'Market force' are synonymous.

As the universe said to Thoreau's man, "So?"

Adapt or die.







 






  







From verba at rol.it  Tue Oct 23 10:41:12 2001
From: verba at rol.it (verba at rol.it)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 19:41:12 +0200
Subject: Verba Volant del 23-10-01
Message-ID: <1003866072@web2bk.logos.it>


Verba Volant del 23-10-01,
Every day a new quotation translated into many languages. 

Logos Translations - www.logostranslations.com 
_________________

Quotation of the day:
Author - Shashi Tharoor
http://www.logos.it/bio/shashi_tharoor.html

English - as long as translations exist, language is a vehicle, not a destination
Italian - finch� esistono le traduzioni, la lingua � un veicolo, non una destinazione
Spanish - en tanto exista la traducci�n, la lengua es veh�culo, no destino
French - �tant donn� qu'il existe la traduction, la langue est un v�hicule, pas une destination
Portuguese - enquanto existir a tradu��o, a l�ngua ser� sempre um ve�culo, n�o um destino
Brazilian Portuguese - j� que existem as tradu��es, a l�ngua � um meio, n�o um fim
German - solange es �bersetzungen gibt, sind Sprachen ein Mittel, nicht der Zweck
Hungarian - am�g l�teznek ford�t�sok, addig a nyelv eszk�z �s nem v�gc�l
Finnish - niin kauan kuin on olemassa k��nn�ksi�, kieli on v�line, ei p��m��r�
Catalan - aix� com existeixen les traduccions, la llengua �s un vehicle no una destinaci�
Croatian - postojanjem prevodenja, jezik je sredstvo a ne cilj
Czech - existuj�-li preklady, jazyk je prostredkem, nikoli c�lem
Dutch - zolang er vertalingen bestaan, is de taal een middel en niet een eindbestemming
Emiliano-Romagnolo - sgom c'h ai � al traduzioun, la lengua l'� un mez, menga la destinazioun
Latin - cum sint translationes, lingua vehiculum, non finis est
Latvian; Lettish - kamer vien pastaves tulkojumi, valoda bus parvieto�anas lidzeklis, nevis galapunkts
Polish - poniewaz istnieja tlumaczenia, jezyk jest pojazdem a nie meta
Romanian - at�ta timp c�t vor exista traducerile, limba va fi un vehicul, nu o destinatie
Slovak - ked�e existuj� preklady, jazyk je n�strojom, nie cielom
Venetian - sicome esiste le tradussion, la lengua xe on mezo, no 'na destinassion
Sicilian - fin'a quannu ci sarannu traduzioni, 'a lingua sar� un mezzu di trasportu, e no 'na distinazioni
Flemish - zolang er vertalingen bestaan, is de taal een middel en niet een eindbestemming
Ferrarese - sic�m ca gh� il traduzzi�n, la lingua l'� un veicul, brsia na destinazion
Bolognese - dal mum�nt ch�ai � �l traduzi�n, la l�ngua l � un m�z, m�gga na destinazi�n 

_________________

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From nobody at dizum.com  Tue Oct 23 10:50:11 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 19:50:11 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Cypherpunks idiots list
Message-ID: <3e6e21eb9ccfd4723fc3f7c95930da94@dizum.com>


Posters to the cypherpunks list can be divided into idiots and others.
Idiots seldom contribute anything useful and love to fasten onto threads
which require no more than their uninformed opinions.  Interestingly,
many of the idiots work at low-paying jobs like system administration,
and several of them are unemployed.

The lists below can't cover everyone, but here is a sampling of recent
posters.  Note: if you are an idiot, you may not like being informed
of this fact.  Nevertheless you will find few non-idiots who will disagree
with your classification.  Go ahead and ask for anyone on the non-idiots
list to vouch for you, if you have the balls.


Idiots

Jim Choate (lifetime member)
Harmon Seaver
Karsten Self
J.A. Terranson
Steve Furlong
James B. DiGriz
Reese


Non-idiots

Tim May
Bill Stewart
Sandy Sandfort
Greg Broiles
John Young
James Donald
Lucky Green
Eric Cordian
Declan McCullagh (marginal)
Adam Back
Adam Shostack
Eugene Leitl




From mshoe200 at yahoo.com  Tue Oct 23 19:53:28 2001
From: mshoe200 at yahoo.com ((na) mshoe)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 19:53:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: a question
Message-ID: <20011024025328.98790.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>


I first want you to know I understand what you do but
I need to ask you to please remove the post from
http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.2001.05.07-2001.05.13/msg00330.html
I am only 16 and just wanted to get some money the
easy way at the time I had no idea that it was
illegal. I know I made a mistake and I am sorry for
it. I just want to put this mistake beind me and
getting my family's address off the internet would be
a big help. Please consider removing the postings.
Thank You, Mitch

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
http://personals.yahoo.com




From rsw at MIT.EDU  Tue Oct 23 17:08:34 2001
From: rsw at MIT.EDU (Riad S. Wahby)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 20:08:34 -0400
Subject: Farm Out! (was Re: Retribution not enough)
In-Reply-To: <3BD59DEE.5B9ECA5B@cybershamanix.com>; from
  hseaver@cybershamanix.com on Tue, Oct 23, 2001 at 11:42:27AM -0500
References: <7C992CE9-C77E-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>
  <3BD59DEE.5B9ECA5B@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <20011023200834.B20046@positron.mit.edu>


Harmon Seaver  wrote:
>        StarOffice is a lot better. Opensource, for one thing (although I
> know the Mac version was dropped and the OS X version not quite ready yet,
> but the linux version rocks), and doesn't get macroviri in any version.
> Again, why would you use something that ID's everything you write? But if
> you really want a great word processor, try XyWrite. Too bad the law firm
> that bought it dropped the ball on development, but the Notabene version is
> going strong, and is the ultimate wp AFAIC.  http://www.notabene.com/
> No mac version, or linux version, but I run Xywrite under VirtualPC on the
> Mac, and under VMware on linux.

Strange that you would go to all the trouble.  I'll take emacs and
LaTeX2e any day of the week.  Who needs WYSIWYG when you can make
nicer-looking documents in less time using a Turing-complete document
formatting / programming language?

--
Riad Wahby
rsw at mit.edu
MIT VI-2/A 2002




From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Tue Oct 23 18:14:33 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 20:14:33 -0500
Subject: Retribution not enough
References: 
Message-ID: <3BD615EF.EACF1AB2@cybershamanix.com>


Jim Choate wrote:

> On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Steve Furlong wrote:
>
> > Then let them. A self-sufficient subsistence farmer won't be bothered by
> > the trade his neighbors are carrying out. [1] His farm can be a
> > neolithic bubble as the world progresses.
>
> Bullshit, just wait until the first drought.
>
> No man is an island, and no chunk of an ecosystem can be removed from that
> around it. Your 'self-sufficiency' is a logical fantasy.
>

      To a point. "Free choice" in most instances, is also a logical fantasy.
That's very clear just in the economic downturn of the last year, right here
in the good ol' USA, and I can easily imagine what it's like in Bolivia or
Guatamala.
    All of a sudden, one day I take my corn to market, and nobody buys. Hmmm.
This actually happened to me long ago when I was running a sawmill. One day I
showed up with a truck load of white cedar which was getting me around $800 @
thousand board feet. The man says, "Sorry, we're getting red cedar trucked
down from Canada at $300."  Hmmm.
     Well, red cedar ain't the same as white cedar by a long shot, but joe
backyard builder hasn't a clue, he just looks at the price.
    Yeah, I adapted (sold the sawmill quick, for one thing), but I also had a
lot of other options. OTOH, it took few years to figure things out, and I'm
still not happy with the outcome. And I had a wife who could make good money.

   Lucky me. The thing is, mostly I'm seeing fatcat whiteboys sitting on
their ass in Amerika talking about "free market" and free choice like they
really know shit about what's going on in the world. Maybe we could relocate
them to the hinterlands of Guatamala and see how well they adapt.


--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver at cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html





From adam at homeport.org  Tue Oct 23 17:34:33 2001
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 20:34:33 -0400
Subject: Cool article on sound underwater
Message-ID: <20011023203433.A17236@weathership.homeport.org>


http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991440

Uses a known carrier through a randomizing media so that only the
source and dest will have the same randomization performed on their
signal.




-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Oct 23 18:48:14 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 20:48:14 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Why Plan-9 licensing?
In-Reply-To: <20011023175119.B16631@navel.introspect>
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 23 Oct 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote:

> Noting, as above, the majority having very low adoption.

No Open Source license has that big a penetration into the market when
compared to non-Open Source. Half a smidjen and a smidjen, when faced with
a dump trunk...

In addition, the Open Source movement is less than 20 years old, approx.
ten years old with respect to providing real alternatives to closed
source. That's a pretty short period as things go to be making claims of
stability of any sort, including licenses.

> I'm primarially looking at author/developer interactions.  However, all
> actors are considered.
> 
> Distributors are concerned with licensing

No, they're concerned with making money. They have to live with licenses.

> exposure point for commercial liability, and high-profile distributors
> will have an aversion to novel or obscure licenses. 

Sure didn't slow down the Open Source folks.

> To this extent,
> licensing is somewhat like cryptography:  well established, well
> understood licenses which have stood the test of time, are considered
> lower risk.

By this argument you should be a real proponent of the Closed Source model
;)

> Again, corporate licenses tend to speak to ghosts in the
> corporate closet

ALL license speak to ghosts in the closet. If somebody didn't have some
sort of goal involved they wouldn't license the software in the first
place (it wouldn't even be written). The distinction between some group of
teenagers or college kids and your favorite corporation is specious. The
only difference is the number of marbles in the bucket.

> Another advantage of selecting a widely use license is that it aquires a
> strong institutional resistence to sudden change.

Which is a major disadvantage in my book.

> Free software largely precludes significant revenue streams from
> software sales.

But it doesn't preclude them via other channels. To say that simply
because the water got dirty when we washed the baby we shouldn't keep the
baby just doesn't work for me. Hint, the software is not the point, ever.

The reality is that simply because the 'standard corporate model' doesn't
work with Open Source is an obvious consequence of understanding the
intent of Open Source and should surprise nobody.

> Not always -- Red Hat continues to generate significant
> revenues from box and corporate sales, though it is moving to a
> subscription (Red Carpet) and services model.  Still, in large part,
> your benefit is going to come from indirect revenues:  services,
> hardware, publications (e.g.: O'Reilly).   Eric Raymond's list from CatB
> still largely stands.

Which simply demonstrates why these failed efforts simply support the
rule. Open Source is a totaly different head.

> In this case, appeal to developers is *quite* significant, as this
> distributes your cost structure effectively to unaffiliated partners.

No users, no point in doing the software. I have to disagree. Irrespective
of intent or scale the customer must come first in all situations.
Developers don't buy products (or services as a consequence of use) at
anywhere the scale of consumers. Developers also don't do service.

> Users, similarly, should be concerned with long term viability of code.

Of this I agree.

> software" status.  Licensing compatibility emphasizes the inherent "code
> escrow" powers of free software licensing by providing the possibility
> that the compelling features of the project might be continued, or at
> least incorporated into another project, should the initial sponsor
> fail.

That's fine if you can deal with the 'inertia' of the 'escrow'...it's
actually counter productive to all concerned in the vast majority of
cases. One of the hopes (admittedly not realized to a great extent to
date) of Open Source was one of innovation. Of providing a forum for
experimentation that was low cost but high quality.

> Which is served by a mix of factors, significant among them, license
> compatibility.

For users the compatibility they care about is, will the product co-exist.
Outside of that most users couldn't care less. Distributors want to sell
whatever will solve customer issues and increase their ROI, $.

If you want to understand a situation; follow the $$$, not the lawyers.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Oct 23 18:50:46 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 20:50:46 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: <3BD615EF.EACF1AB2@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 23 Oct 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote:

>       To a point. "Free choice" in most instances, is also a logical fantasy.

A real one too, congratulations. I guess you just became a crank :)

There's no such thing as 'control' either.

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From Jon.Beets at pacer.com  Tue Oct 23 19:15:46 2001
From: Jon.Beets at pacer.com (Jon Beets)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 21:15:46 -0500
Subject: FBI considers torture as suspects stay silent
References: <3BD5C5ED.188B0A2E@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <002901c15c31$cb64fa70$03d36b3f@pacer.com>


The military's rules of engagement are very explicit... Anyone giving an
order to break those rules are themselves committing a crime.. The integrity
to stand up and say its wrong is what has been taught in the military over
the past few years as "Moral Courage"... I am not saying the rules don't get
broken but if even one person speaks up about what happened then your
looking at a very long time of making big rock into little rocks.....  At
the same time would we risk torturing prisoners when we have preached for
years for other countries to stop this exact same thing...

My bets are on the Al Qaeda personnel who want to tell all.. The ones who
are so proud of what they have done they will let you know whatever you
want...

Jon Beets

----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2001 2:33 PM
Subject: Re: FBI considers torture as suspects stay silent


> Declan McCullagh  wrote :
> >On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 08:50:01PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> >> Yes, but this is one of those manufactured, utterly implausible
> >> situations. I cannot think of a single instance where a suspect had
this
> >> kind of knowledge, with this kind of stakes, and with this kind of
"next
> >> three hours" timetable. Even relaxing each item by a factor of 10...I
> >> can't think of any such examples.
> >
> >Neither can I. My intention was not to suggest that it's acceptable to
> >rip out the accused's toenails, slowly, but to suggest that this is
> >the kind of scenario that we may hear politicians talking about in short
> >order.
> >
> >-Declan
> >
> I wonder what orders our raiders have in regards prisoners?
>
> While we're debating what may or may not happen here my guess is that
> the decision about what to do with captured al Quaeda or Taliban
> higher-ups on the battlefield was decided long ago. The interrogators
> and their bags of tricks are ready for subjects. We have to know what
> they know.
>
> Mike




From Jon.Beets at pacer.com  Tue Oct 23 19:18:03 2001
From: Jon.Beets at pacer.com (Jon Beets)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 21:18:03 -0500
Subject: Cypherpunks idiot list
References: <4c7ce548197816ff8ed584cbdb5ae737@dizum.com>
Message-ID: <003d01c15c32$4166f070$03d36b3f@pacer.com>


Well at least you got the UNDERPAID part right...

Jon Beets


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Nomen Nescio" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2001 3:21 PM
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks idiot list


>   Of course I know how to use a killfile! I killfiled all you idiots
> long ago, but your names and trivial ideas keep getting quoted by
> all the important people, AND I JUST CAN'T STAND IT ANYMORE!.
>   Have you no shame, how can you dare to even show your face on
> a list like this, you stupid, underpaid little twits?
>   We divided everyone up like this and published the names in my
> highschool, and it worked very well. Everyone knew where they stood,
> and just who was really WHO! 




From blancw at cnw.com  Tue Oct 23 21:40:18 2001
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 21:40:18 -0700
Subject: Terrorists and Solutions
Message-ID: 


Cpunks, what are your ideas on this:

.  What would be an acceptable way for the U.S. government to handle the
current problem of terrorists in the U.S. in order to "catch" the ones
already here and to prevent future attacks (acknowledged, they will do what
they are prepared to do, given their mind-set)?

	- undesireable:  national ID cards, home & computer intrusions,
wiretapping, increased surveillance as in England



.  What would be a practical way for those in the U.S. to handle there now
being trained terrorists in the midst, in consideration the fact that:

	- there could be other surprise attacks in the future

	- terrorist activities could escalate as a result of the bombing of
Afhanistan, that this could set off the other "cells" and gain supporters,
especially if Bin Laden were killed

	   (already noted:  stay away from "soft-targets", stock up on basics
(though not a terrorist deterrent), get a gun and/or other defense means, be
alert)

	- at this time, those not resembling Arabs won't have as much of a problem
of arousing suspicion and investigation, but as "civil liberties" are being
adversely affected, everyone must consider how they will deal with these
developments - how they will fight them or live with them in the interim


  ..
Blanc




From remailer at aarg.net  Tue Oct 23 21:45:08 2001
From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 21:45:08 -0700
Subject: FBI considers torture as suspects stay silent
Message-ID: 


>Besides, the Taliban don't dance.

When the B-52's are performing even the Taliban develop rhythm.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Oct 23 20:19:46 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 22:19:46 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011023193255.00844620@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 23 Oct 2001, David Honig wrote:

> As the universe said to Thoreau's man, "So?"
> 
> Adapt or die.

Exactly, but pitching 'man against man' as synonymous as 'universe against
man' is a disservice. They're not the same thing. One is a 'free market'
and the other is the opposite.

Of course this cuts right to the primary failing of all C-A-C-L
philosophy.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From nobody at dizum.com  Tue Oct 23 13:21:19 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 22:21:19 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Cypherpunks idiot list
Message-ID: <4c7ce548197816ff8ed584cbdb5ae737@dizum.com>


  Of course I know how to use a killfile! I killfiled all you idiots
long ago, but your names and trivial ideas keep getting quoted by
all the important people, AND I JUST CAN'T STAND IT ANYMORE!.
  Have you no shame, how can you dare to even show your face on
a list like this, you stupid, underpaid little twits?
  We divided everyone up like this and published the names in my
highschool, and it worked very well. Everyone knew where they stood,
and just who was really WHO! 




From pud at fuckedcompany.com  Tue Oct 23 23:36:07 2001
From: pud at fuckedcompany.com (pud at fuckedcompany.com)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 01:36:07 -0500
Subject: You got points on FC: amazon.com
Message-ID: <200110240613.CAA18158@deano.virtualscape.com>


This is an automatic email to let you know that you just got some points on fuckedcompany.com for "amazon.com".

If you want to stop receiving these notifications, go here:
http://www.fuckedcompany.com/stop.cfm?code=DYLZZPSAAYQWATA

rock on,
pud

http://www.fuckedcompany.com




From drevil at sidereal.kz  Tue Oct 23 20:07:35 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil)
Date: 24 Oct 2001 03:07:35 -0000
Subject: openbsd encrypted fs
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20011023085022.03235620@idiom.com> (message from
  Bill Stewart on Tue, 23 Oct 2001 09:07:47 -0700)
References: <20011023014507.4141.qmail@sidereal.kz>
  <5.0.2.1.1.20011023085022.03235620@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <20011024030735.733.qmail@sidereal.kz>


> > > > vnconfig -ck svnd0 diskimage
> 
> I don't have a BSD system around to check -
> what does this approach do?

It creates an loop encrypted loopback FS.

> > > Anyway, for an OS which prides itself on built-in crypto,
> > > why do we have to mess around with loopback?  ...
> >Can you describe a scenario under which an encrypted fs is valuable enough
> >to justify typing one command, but not two?  OpenBSD's target audience is
> >not exactly clueless newbies.
> >Or is speed so important that you'd sacrifice security?  Any encrypted fs
> >will take a performance hit; I think you'll find loopback overhead is
> >insignificant next to the crypto.

I tested it out and it was about 200% slower than normal, which is not
a problem, in my opinion.  It's hard to believe that the latency came
from the encryption, because the encryption operation is probably not
much more computational than the checksum operation, whereas having to
write to two FSes at the same time involves all kinds of OS layers and
lots of latency.

> Is Dr. Evil's concern with loopback just the speed?
> (Plus the ugly minimal user interface, which is a job for a script.)
> Machines are enough faster these days that I'd think the
> only places that's a big hit, other than database apps,
> are swap space, and you can mostly fix that by buying enough RAM.

No, it has nothing to do with speed.  Machines are plenty fast.  This
is just a kludgy way to do this, and the last time I tried it, I got
kernel panics within a day or so of uptime.  Not acceptable,
obviously.  Anyway, the problem is that vnconfig creates a raw disk
partition, and then you have to put an FS on top of that, so vnconfig
has no way of knowing if you entered the password correctly or not,
and basically this method just sucks.  My file system already has
features such as file ownership, directories, file names, and
checksums.  I don't need to use some hacked feature to get those
features to work.  How is encryption any different from those other
features?  Answer: it isn't.  It should just be there.

> >Is booting from an encrypted fs ever useful?  Use read-only media if
> >tampering is a concern.  Configure and mount other encrypted filesystems
> >from /etc/rc.  If you can install and maintain OpenBSD, you can manage

Look, how can you not understand this?  Isn't this the cypherpunks
list we're on here?  You might as well ask, "is encrypting my
phonecall to grannie ever useful?"  If I have a choice between
encrypting and not encrypting, why would I not choose encrypting?
Surely you can appreciate that a software-only solution to
tamper-resistance might have some usefulness?  Surely you can
understand that, given a choice between booting from a CD and booting
from hard disk, it might be an enormous pain to boot from CD all the
time, and CDs are far less tamper-resistant than encrypted disk?
Surely you can understand that there might be some config files in
/etc that contain valuable information in some circumstances?  Or
perhaps a user wants to make sure that it cannot be proved that a
certain application or kernel mod is installed?  With the right kind
of boot loader and encrypted FS, you could conceal which OS is even
being run.

Here's one of the biggest security tool design falacies of all time,
which you have fallen into: "Off the top of my head, I can't think of
a threat model for this configuration option, so no one needs it, so
I'll hard-code this limitation into my tool.  Why would anyone want to
conceal which OS he is running?"  There are more threat models than
you or I can possibly imagine, so it is horrificly bad to design use
contstraints into your security tools architecture.  But very few
people understand this.

> If you've got applications that insist on putting data in /etc or /var,
> or for log files in general, you have to be careful about the order the
> system starts in.  And if you're worried about people seeing your config files
> that might show who you communicate with, you could go paranoid about this.
> IPSEC secrets may be a concern, if stealing/cloning the disk lets someone
> forge your identity.

Right, thank you, someone understands this.  Imagine a laptop with VPN
software and config on it, for instance.

> >It's worth noting their primary goal is network security, not crypto.
> >Rubber hoses don't factor significantly in their threat model.

Network security is problem #1 for most servers, but there are a
hundred other problems behind it, and physical security is somewhere
high up there.  Let's put it this way: Let's say you have a DB which
stores 100k credit card numbers.  This is not uncommon in e-commerce.
Stolen credit card numbers have a value of about $5 each on the black
market I am told.  Suddenly you have data on the machine which are
worth $500k.  Hmm, do you have armed guards on duty 24 hours a day to
protect this $500k asset?  Where does one find armed guards who can be
trusted?  Do you want to spend the $200k/year to hire enough armed
guards for 24hour coverage?  Where does one find armed guards in
countries which don't allow arms?  In Singapore do you hire kung fu
masters to protect your $500k machine?  The answer to all of this is
basically "duh, why don't we encrypt the disk?"

> Laptop theft belongs in *most* security models.

Yeah, tell that to the MI5 or whichever British branch it is that has
lost hundreds of laptops.  I used to work at a corporation, and one
night, all the laptops in the executive offices were stolen, and
people still say, "you don't need FS encryption."  I don't understand
it.  It's an easy feature, and there's basically no performance
penalty, so why not have it?  "Encryption everywhere" is a good idea,
and OpenBSD should adopt it.

I can't believe that some people on this list think that storing data
in an encrypted format is pointless.




From jokes at freeall.com  Wed Oct 24 03:59:41 2001
From: jokes at freeall.com (Free4all Jokes)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 03:59:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Joke of the Day!  From Free4all.com
Message-ID: <20011024105941.6334.qmail@web12402.mail.yahoo.com>


---------------------------------


---------------------------------
 
---------------------------------


---------------------------------
	CLICK HERE FOR THOUSANDS OF JOKES OR TO SUBSCRIBE TO JOKE OF THE DAY
---------------------------------

To unsubscribe send a blank mail to the address Below:
jokes-unsubscribe-cypherpunks=toad.com at boss.free4all.com



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From attila at hun.org  Tue Oct 23 21:43:17 2001
From: attila at hun.org (attila!)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 04:43:17 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [RANT] Unfettered immigration is rapidly shifting the ethnic
 and political balance of the United States
Message-ID: <20011024044317.8117C3465A@hun.org>

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From proff at iq.org  Tue Oct 23 12:34:37 2001
From: proff at iq.org (Julian Assange)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 05:34:37 +1000 (EST)
Subject: WSJ on Safety Before Liberty
In-Reply-To: <200110231639.MAA03877@barry.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20011023193437.183D425A04@suburbia.net>


> Lincoln, Franklin Roosevelt, among others. But claims that 
> after the crises passed civil liberties were restored "stronger 
> than ever." So fear not what is in the offing.

Post-war US liberties were usually restored after apalling abuses by the
mendacious followed by intensive lobbing by civil rights activists.

It'd be nice to cut the former phase short. Although, perhaps the
better tactic is to let them run-amok. It certainly worked for
the Netherlands.

--
 Julian Assange        |If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people
                       |together to collect wood or assign them tasks and
 proff at iq.org          |work, but rather teach them to long for the endless
 proff at gnu.ai.mit.edu  |immensity of the sea. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Oct 24 05:24:56 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 07:24:56 -0500
Subject: Slashdot | Holographic Sonar Cryptography
Message-ID: <3BD6B318.60503150@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/science/01/10/23/2215256.shtml
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From nobody at paranoici.org  Tue Oct 23 22:50:44 2001
From: nobody at paranoici.org (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 07:50:44 +0200
Subject: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and
  bounds)
Message-ID: 


>The really weird thing about this whole anthrax scene is that all
>the spores seem to be of the Ames variety, which is a militarized anthrax
>developed in Ames, Iowa. It really seems suspicious to me that these are of
>domestic origin -- bin Ladin or whoever would be in all likelihood be using
>a Russian variety or an Iraqi subset.

>Sigh! Time to watch "Wag the Dog" again. And after that, "Brazil".

The difference between "Wag the Dog" and "The Big Terrorist Hoax" is that the former was done far more professionaly, it cost more and returned no profit at all.

Face it: catalyzing suicidal WTC spectacle and mailing some anthrax probably did not cost more than $10-15 million altogether, and that is what purchased them their wet dream - dictatorship at the dawn of third millenia. One must commend the government for wise spending - this is the most bang for the buck I've ever seen.

Governments *always* killed their own subjects for gain, and the 5K bodies is actually low count for the effect produced. This kind of power shift usually required a major war with 10-100X more bodies.

So, the government is not only economical. It is also humane.




From jwn2 at qualcomm.com  Wed Oct 24 07:56:43 2001
From: jwn2 at qualcomm.com (John W Noerenberg II)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 07:56:43 -0700
Subject: Cypherpunks idiots list
In-Reply-To: <3BD5B985.4A4E87A2@cybershamanix.com>
References: <3e6e21eb9ccfd4723fc3f7c95930da94@dizum.com>
 <3BD5B985.4A4E87A2@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: 


It 's always refreshing when someone posts something truly funny. 
The "idiots list" ranks right up there with Nixon's enemies list - 
except it's not as long...
-- 

john noerenberg
jwn2 at qualcomm.com
   ----------------------------------------------------------------------
   While the belief we  have found the Answer can separate us
   and make us forget our humanity, it is the seeking that continues
   to bring us together, the makes and keeps us human.
   -- Daniel J. Boorstin, "The Seekers", 1998
   ----------------------------------------------------------------------




From honig at sprynet.com  Wed Oct 24 08:06:12 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 08:06:12 -0700
Subject: Slashdot | Holographic Sonar Cryptography
In-Reply-To: <3BD6B318.60503150@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011024080612.00809100@pop.sprynet.com>


At 07:24 AM 10/24/01 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:

Holographic Sonar Cryptography

Its no more 'cryptography' than the plans to use
small number of quanta to communicate 'securely'
between satellites, or using pressurized conduits
for your cables.  As 'secure' or 'untappable' fnord
communications it is moderately relevent though.







 






  







From honig at sprynet.com  Wed Oct 24 08:22:54 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 08:22:54 -0700
Subject: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and 
  bounds )
In-Reply-To: <3BD6A4B0.FD5D8C54@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
References: <3BD5C1D3.FBD76E8@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011024082254.008092c0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 12:23 PM 10/24/01 +0100, Ken Brown wrote:
>> 
>> Our society has, for all practical purposes, endless vulnerabilities. If
>> as each vulnerability is exploited we plan on taking drastic steps to
>> secure it from future exploitation, the costs will be staggering and the
>> list of unsecured items will hardly diminish. The result of the current
>> approach is an authoritarian society with a neverending, self-justifying
>> security project ahead of it. Sounds like a wonderful place to live if
>> you're an insect.
>
>So we get either the Caves of Steel   or the Naked Sun?
>
>I'd go for the former, being a city boy, but I guess T. May, H. Seaver &
>D. Honig  might prefer the hyper-exurbia of the latter.  One step from
>the Machine Stops - set not in the ultimate city but in the ultimate
>suburb.

Personally I'd prefer a non-colonial foreign policy that doesn't generate
such antipathy.  

The message of the WTC is this: regular ole' non-mil sheeple *are* held
responsible for
the actions of their government.  *Even* in the US.  What a concept.
I suppose the sheeple in Dresden (etc.) know what that's like.  

When the US populations' endocrines settle down, maybe they'll clue in to
cause and effect.  Doubt it.  Getting involved in others' family feuds is just
too much fun.

What was it General Washington said about foreign entanglements?  I'd tattoo
it onto every congressvermin's forehead.




From honig at sprynet.com  Wed Oct 24 08:26:22 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 08:26:22 -0700
Subject: USPS:  glowing by leaps and bounds
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20011023091431.03237d30@idiom.com>
References: <20011023042357.A4290@navel.introspect>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011024082622.00840420@pop.sprynet.com>


At 09:31 AM 10/23/01 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
>Unexposed photographic film could have a real problem with this,
>depending on quite what they're using.

Enough rads to sterilize?  Forget film.

Interesting consequences for the evolution of radiation-resistant strains,
of course.
Except in kansas where evolution isn't allowed.




From honig at sprynet.com  Wed Oct 24 08:33:01 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 08:33:01 -0700
Subject: USPS:  glowing by leaps and bounds
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20011023091431.03237d30@idiom.com>
References: <20011023042357.A4290@navel.introspect>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011024083301.00809600@pop.sprynet.com>


At 09:31 AM 10/23/01 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
>At 04:23 AM 10/23/2001 -0700, Karsten M. Self wrote:
>>Irradiation equipment is being considered for mail processing, heard

Yep, nothing like placing canisters of radiological materials 
everywhere.  Mmmm, smell that?  Cobalt 60.  Smells like... victory.

If plastique can be stolen from military bases...




From schear at lvcm.com  Wed Oct 24 08:47:23 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 08:47:23 -0700
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_MATT_DRUDGE_//_DRUDGE_REPORT_2001=AE?=
In-Reply-To: <3BD6045E.FD112C86@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011024083934.03a087c8@pop3.lvcm.com>


At 06:59 PM 10/23/2001 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
>http://www.drudgereport.com/matth2.htm

Hillary "smarm with out the charm" Clinton is finally being treated to the 
welcome she deserves.  If Ruddi hadn't dropped out or the Repos hadn't run 
such a weak candidate the voters would surely had sent her packing.  Next 
election should be interesting.

We recorded that VH-1 show and not unexpectedly she was not to be seen (the 
booing lasted her entire time on the stage).  Ah, ha!

steve




From sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 24 08:58:29 2001
From: sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com (sonofgomez709)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 08:58:29 -0700
Subject: Just A Coincidence  
Message-ID: <002e01c15ca4$bad074a0$d90da2cd@vaio>

Since the 9/11 terrorist attacks, three major web sites dealing with mind control have disappeared with no explanation or contact from their owners: 
http://www.mindcontrolforum.com
http://www.ritualabuse.net (and ../MCF/)
http://www.cahe.org



CJ Parker 
http://profiles.yahoo.com/sonofgomez709
http://members.w-link.net/~sog/INDEX.HTM
http://jya.com/cejfiles.htm

"The True Story Of The InterNet"
The Xenix ChainSaw Massacre
http://www.technopagan.org/politics/xenix/
WebWorld & The Mythical Circle Of Eunuchs
http://www.technopagan.org/politics/webworld/ 
InfoWar: Final Frontier Of The Digital rEvolution
http://www.technopagan.org/politics/infowarriors/
Space Aliens Hide My Drugs
http://www.technopagan.org/politics/sahmd/ 

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Wed Oct 24 07:38:29 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 09:38:29 -0500
Subject: lne down?
References: 
Message-ID: <3BD6D262.F37AD056@cybershamanix.com>


    So what's wrong with lne.com -- majordomo responds to info
cypherpunks, but nothing's coming thru since last night, and nothing on
inet.com either except from toad and ssz?

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver at cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html




From Jmwest at mypad.com  Wed Oct 24 09:38:47 2001
From: Jmwest at mypad.com (Jmwest at mypad.com)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 09:38:47 -0700
Subject: Register now for a vacation giveaway.                         12224
Message-ID: <00006a8001b4$0000414e$00002fc0@4.2.2.1>

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From tcmay at got.net  Wed Oct 24 09:56:26 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 09:56:26 -0700
Subject: Market Competition for Security Measures
In-Reply-To: <3BD6A4B0.FD5D8C54@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <1047397B-C8A0-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>


This debate is one of my favorites: security and the role of market 
forces. I regret not having the time/energy to tighten and polish this 
essay below. Some paragraphs are almost note-like. If you can handle 
John Young, you can handle this.


On Wednesday, October 24, 2001, at 04:23 AM, Ken Brown wrote:

> mmotyka at lsil.com wrote:
>> Our society has, for all practical purposes, endless vulnerabilities. 
>> If
>> as each vulnerability is exploited we plan on taking drastic steps to
>> secure it from future exploitation, the costs will be staggering and 
>> the
>> list of unsecured items will hardly diminish. The result of the current
>> approach is an authoritarian society with a neverending, 
>> self-justifying
>> security project ahead of it. Sounds like a wonderful place to live if
>> you're an insect.
>
> So we get either the Caves of Steel   or the Naked Sun?
>
> I'd go for the former, being a city boy, but I guess T. May, H. Seaver &
> D. Honig  might prefer the hyper-exurbia of the latter.  One step from
> the Machine Stops - set not in the ultimate city but in the ultimate
> suburb.

A debate near and dear to my heart. City vs. suburb, armor vs. 
dispersion. Closely related to issues discussed often in the 
"survivalist" invisible college, during war scares, Y2K, and the current 
situation. Some of us have taken responsibility for our own security by 
living in less-likely, more defensible targets. Others live in crowded 
areas, but have private security arrangements. Gate burb-claves, high 
security condominiums, etc. Privately arranged, not ordered by Big 
Brother.

Cf. "Schelling points for terrorism" (key words, if not exact title), an 
item I wrote a few years ago about which targets are more likely to be 
hit than others. Clearly there are some places more likely for attacks 
than other places. And there are places downwind from nuclear reactors, 
downstream from dams, downherd from rampaging looters, and so on.

Federalizing or socializing the costs of security is like federalizing 
or socializing flood insurance: it takes the efficiencies of the market 
away and creates distortions.

What is being missed in all of the "rush to a security state" debate is 
the role of _private security arrangements_. Some examples, with a focus 
here on airport and airplane security:

* one size does _not_ fit all. Not all passengers are equally likely to 
be security risks. This is common sense, but the civil libertarians call 
it "racial profiling." True civil libertarians know that owners of 
property (e.g. United Airlines) are free to implement security 
procedures as they see fit. If ABX Airlines wants to implement full body 
searches of passengers and XYZ Airlines wants to implement no security 
at all, to first order this should be a market decision.

(There are interesting issues of "danger to others." Friedman the 
Younger covers this in his recent book on economics. "Law's Order." To 
wit, XYZ Airlines, with no security procedures, might be denied use of 
various airports, etc. A standard tort issue. The outcome is not 
precisely known, but a move toward "market competition for security 
measures" would flesh out many of these issues and outcomes.)

* travel associations, with members vetted by other members, even with 
security bonds. Think "web of trust," but much more formalized. A "know 
your passenger" scheme that has no government involvement, no coercion. 
Those who are not "vetted" (with biometric/unforgeable credentials) are 
free to wait in the cattle lines with the other cattle before boarding 
the jets operated by private players.

(Yes, this involves prying into private lives and habits, but no more so 
than corporations tend to do. For example, a 3-year employee of 
Cybergistics is "known" to many in his company. His basic interests and 
hobbies are known. More importantly, his coworkers and managers have a 
pretty good idea if he's a whacko, or a recently-arrived student from 
the Sudan who quotes the Koran. This company can "vouch" for one of its 
employees flying.)

* Private security screening. Just as there are multiple airlines, in a 
free society, why not multiple screening companies? (No carrier would be 
"required" to accept the work product of a screening company, naturally. 
All a matter of market negotiations.) Some security screening would be 
done with the aforementioned "vouching." Some might be cases where 
customers pay several bucks a head to pass through various sniffers.

Again, those who don't have arrangements with either vouchsafing 
entities or screening entities at the terminal can stand in the 2-hour 
"public" line. Akin in many ways to health care, with those having no 
other arrangments going to the public hospitals (not that I endorse 
taxpayer-subsidized public hospitals).

* Close tie-ins with insurance. After all, the nature of insurance is 
_betting_. And it's a much better bet that a middle-aged white professor 
from Kansas is less likely to be a hijacker or bomber than someone like 
a 22-year-old immigrant from Pakistan with no career, no known 
associates who will vouch for him, etc. What would the "premiums" be for 
each of these potential travellers, and what screening steps would their 
respective insurance companies require?

* Increased use of private charters, which already have their own 
security arrangements. Again, with vouching. (Some corporate travel 
systems already use privately-owned jets, with pickup from passenger 
homes. One of my neighbors works with the leading such company: 
luxurious jets, very fast passenger loading times, private security 
arrangements. They _know_ their customers, through vouching and past 
travel, and they don't have to have corporate travellers arriving
"two hours early" for some bullshit inspection for fingernail clippers 
and copies of "Hayduke Lives!")

* Part of the market competition is also the security policy on the 
airplane itself. Some companies will have titanium/Kevlar doors to the 
cockpit, some will have the typical aluminum foil/balsa wood 
consructions. Passengers will vote with their feet and pocketbooks, as 
it should be. Security will be driven by market forces, not by top-down, 
one size fits all, central planning.

The basic point is to have the costs of security, of assurance, of 
insurance, *privatized*. Not for religious reasons of private vs. public 
funding, but to get the richness and flexibility that privatized, 
incentive-driven, risk-sensitive private markets provide.

The similarity with Stephenson's "burb-claves" and with already-common 
private security firms is obvious. Even similarities with the Mafia.

This idea is easy to implement, too. For example, let El Al begin flying 
within the continental U.S. Let them apply _their_ standards. Passengers 
can vote with their feet and their pocketbooks on whether they'll fly 
United or El Al.

And let _all_ carriers compete on the basis of their security policies. 
Many of them already have their own terminals at major airports, so they 
can in principle easily implement their own screening policies, their 
own vouching policies.

Lots more ideas come to mind, and are fairly easy to implement. The key 
is to get away from the "one size fits all."

Liberty-fearing people like Reason's Cathy Young can sign up for her own 
security policies: no "scary" free speech, no plastic knives, no 
fingernail clippers, no "Hayduke Lives!" novels allowed.

Sounds fair to me. Libertarians should be pushing the market approach to 
security.

Reactions?

--Tim May
"Ben Franklin warned us that those who would trade liberty for a little 
bit of temporary security deserve neither. This is the path we are now 
racing down, with American flags fluttering."-- Tim May, on events 
following 9/11/2001




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Wed Oct 24 09:59:33 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 09:59:33 -0700
Subject: FBI considers torture as suspects stay silent
Message-ID: <3BD6F375.347EC234@lsil.com>


"Jon Beets"  wrote :
>
>The military's rules of engagement are very explicit... Anyone giving an
>order to break those rules are themselves committing a crime.. The integrity
>to stand up and say its wrong is what has been taught in the military over
>the past few years as "Moral Courage"... I am not saying the rules don't get
>broken but if even one person speaks up about what happened then your
>looking at a very long time of making big rock into little rocks.....
>
Most likely any high-value prisoners would be transferred to
non-military actors and whisked away. The sole obligation of the
military would be to keep quiet.

> At the same time would we risk torturing prisoners 
> when we have preached for years for other countries
> to stop this exact same thing...
>
Absolutely YES, if the stakes are high enough. The potential for these
guys having acquired or manufactured exotic weapons and their apparent
willingness to use them makes it a high-stakes game.

>My bets are on the Al Qaeda personnel who want to tell all.. The ones who
>are so proud of what they have done they will let you know whatever you
>want...
>
They generally seem to do a good job at staying mum in the US courts.

>Jon Beets
>
Mike




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Wed Oct 24 10:11:59 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 10:11:59 -0700
Subject: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and
  bounds )
Message-ID: <3BD6F65F.6AED2207@lsil.com>


David Honig  wrote :
>
>Personally I'd prefer a non-colonial foreign policy that doesn't generate
>such antipathy.  
>
>The message of the WTC is this: regular ole' non-mil sheeple *are* held
>responsible for
>the actions of their government.  *Even* in the US.  What a concept.
>I suppose the sheeple in Dresden (etc.) know what that's like.  
>
>When the US populations' endocrines settle down, maybe they'll clue in to
>cause and effect.  Doubt it.  Getting involved in others' family feuds is just
>too much fun.
>
>What was it General Washington said about foreign entanglements?  I'd tattoo
>it onto every congressvermin's forehead.
>
Not that it isn't a good direction to head but I wonder what your
time-scale is for the conversion of a society that cannot survive
without an influx of inexpensive resources from foreign sources into
something less colonial? It has to be decades at a minimum.

In the meantime how do we deal with the Islamic Fundamentalist nutters?
Or our own Christian Fundamentalist nutters for that matter. I don't
want to hear about good and evil, Christian vs. Muslim, True faiths vs.
ersatz faiths or right vs. wrong. The crew that did the WTC is
dangerous. Those who are sending anthrax through the mails are
dangerous. Near-term solutions are called for. I would like to see
solutions that don't involve further trashing of our civil rights but I
have no compassion for the terrorists or freedom fighters or whatever
the hell you want to call them.

Mike




From jya at pipeline.com  Wed Oct 24 10:18:01 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 10:18:01 -0700
Subject: War Criminals
Message-ID: <200110241423.KAA07633@barry.mail.mindspring.net>


Paul Krugman, Economic Columnist, New York Times, 24 October 2001:

At worst, war bonds will offer a lower return than ordinary bonds. 
And if some people buy them nonetheless, what will they finance? 
Here's where that tax bill enters the picture. The remarkable thing 
about the 'stimulus' package that passed the Ways and Means 
Committee on a straight party-line vote is that it barely even pretends 
to serve its ostensible function. It consists largely of permanent tax 
cuts, not the temporary cuts that you would expect in a stimulus 
package. It systematically gives money to those least likely to 
spend it, that is, to high-income taxpayers, and above all to large 
corporations. 

Some of the provisions in the House bill are simply mind-boggling. 
For example, there is a large *retroactive* tax cut for corporations 
that would lead to immediate rebates of hundreds of millions of 
dollars to *each* of a select list of giant companies, many of them 
in the energy industry (though the $1.4 billion check to I.B.M. would 
top the list). 

On the other hand, there is almost nothing in the bill for people who 
might actually need more money. The extra unemployment benefits, 
in particular, are far less generous than those offered in the last 
recession, when the elder Bush was president. The bill, in short, 
looks as if it was written by corporate lobbyists -- and it probably 
was. Even Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill was evidently 
embarrassed by the bill, dismissing its more outlandish 
components as 'show business' designed to impress campaign 
donors.

But his remark was naove. Those lobbyists are serious men, who 
are paid by their employers to deliver results, not gestures; they 
wouldn't have put those provisions in unless they thought they 
had enough power to get them enacted. And sure enough, the 
White House soon contradicted Mr. O'Neill; the president, 
declared Ari Fleischer, was 'very pleased' with the House bill. 

Which brings us back to those war bonds. The government not 
only isn't calling for shared sacrifice; it is 'very pleased' with a 
proposal to give billions in handouts to corporations. And in that 
case, what is someone who buys a war bond really helping to 
finance? Put it this way: If the House has its way, the government 
will give far more in tax breaks to corporations over the next year 
than it will spend fighting terrorism. Yet somehow one suspects 
that people would not rush to buy 'corporate tax-cut bonds.' 




From ericm at lne.com  Wed Oct 24 10:24:25 2001
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 10:24:25 -0700
Subject: lne down?
In-Reply-To: <20011024131754.A16681@cluebot.com>; from declan@well.com
  on Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 01:17:54PM -0400
References: 
  <3BD6D262.F37AD056@cybershamanix.com>
  <20011024131754.A16681@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <20011024102425.A24471@slack.lne.com>


On Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 01:17:54PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> Lne.com, at least based on what I saw, sent no outgoing messages from
> about 7 pm ET yesterday until 12 noon today.
 

We had a sendmail config error, and our network feed had a problem
with some hardware.



Eric




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Oct 24 10:32:38 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 10:32:38 -0700
Subject: USPS:  glowing by leaps and bounds
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <1E894BF0-C8A5-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Wednesday, October 24, 2001, at 10:14 AM, Sampo Syreeni wrote:

> On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, David Honig wrote:
>
>> Enough rads to sterilize?  Forget film.
>
> What do you suppose happens to disks and other magnetic media at these
> flux levels?


Nothing. Magnetic oxides and metallic thin films are not affected by 
mere few tens of kilorads, or even by megarads.

Ionizing radiation has no particular first order effect on such films.

There is much more I can write here, but won't.


--Tim May
"Ben Franklin warned us that those who would trade liberty for a little 
bit of temporary security deserve neither. This is the path we are now 
racing down, with American flags fluttering."-- Tim May, on events 
following 9/11/2001




From grocha at neutraldomain.org  Wed Oct 24 10:34:11 2001
From: grocha at neutraldomain.org (Gabriel Rocha)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 10:34:11 -0700
Subject: George Mason U. adopts a free-market philosophy to an unusual
  degree
Message-ID: <20011024103411.C31325@neutraldomain.org>


http://washington.bcentral.com/washington/stories/2001/10/22/focus1.html

George Mason U. adopts a free-market philosophy to an unusual degree

   Eric Winig   Staff Reporter
   
   While the U.S. economy continues to sink, the majority of economists
   are scratching their heads, unable to divine why low interest rates
   and fiscal stimulus are failing to revive consumer spending. Most,
   however, predict those old fixes will eventually work their magic
   again.
   
   But to a small school of economists, the U.S. downturn is no mystery.
   Indeed, they were expecting such an event long before George W. Bush
   and Al Gore tangled in Florida last year.
   
   Credit-induced booms inevitably turn to busts, they say. Because
   people cannot forever spend more than they earn, such a situation will
   always lead eventually to a period of contraction in which debts must
   be worked off and savings rebuilt.
   
   Those economists belong to a school of thought known as "Austrian
   economics," founded in Austria in the late 19th century and introduced
   to America in the early 1900s. Austrian economics is basically a a
   strong adherence to free-market economics without government
   intervention.
   
   As many Austrian economists see it, the boom years of the late 1990s
   were not a "new era," nor a new economy, but instead a period when
   cheap credit and abundant capital convinced individuals and
   corporations to borrow like mad. Much of this money, meanwhile, was
   used for what turned out to be poor investments.
   
   Although stock prices have since come down significantly, the debts
   amassed from all that borrowing remain, choking off any economic
   recovery before it can begin. As far as most Austrians are concerned,
   such imbalances must be corrected before the economy can begin to grow
   anew.
   
   It sounds like a simple concept, yet to most who practice economics
   for a living Austrian economists are a fringe group. In large part
   that is because the Austrian argument against any government
   intervention in the market makes most economists -- and their vaunted
   economic forecasts -- irrelevant.
   
   In fact, the only doctoral program in the country with a dedicated
   Austrian program is at George Mason University in Fairfax.
   
Something of a mission

   The university's Program on Markets and Institutions -- part of the
   James M. Buchanan Center for Political Economy
   ([52]http://www.gmu.edu/jbc) -- is run by Karen Vaughn and Peter
   Boettke. And to those with Austrian leanings, GMU is akin to a port in
   a violent storm.
   
   "It's a place where you find people who think like you," says
   Veronique deRugy, a French native who crossed the pond to do
   post-doctoral work at GMU and now works for The Cato Institute
   ([53]http://www.cato.org), a D.C.-based public policy foundation with
   a libertarian philosophy.
   
   "I was one of the rare Austrian economists in France," she says, "so
   it seemed like a logical place to go."
   
   Most of the program's students are Americans -- unusual for a graduate
   school -- and were introduced to Austrian economics by a professor in
   college. While they don't expect to score a tenured position at
   Harvard, most students know exactly what they are getting into.
   
   "I don't expect to be teaching a class called `Austrian Economics,'"
   says Edward Stringham, who is finishing his doctorate at GMU.
   
   Stringham, like many students, hopes to go someplace where he can
   teach economics with a free-market bent, even if his class will be
   slightly different from the school's other offerings.
   
   In fact, there are many such professors out there, including a good
   number from GMU. And most view their task as something of a mission.
   
   "The task facing Austrians is to take our theories and get them out
   there," says Steven Horowitz, associate professor of economics at St.
   Lawrence University in New York and a former GMU student. "I can name
   a dozen schools that have tenured Austrian economists there. We're
   putting our roots down in academia."
   
A credibility hurdle

   Although Austrian economics can be defined loosely as a free-market
   ideology, some stress this is not an entirely accurate
   characterization.
   
   Austrian economics provides "a deep appreciation of the markets" that
   is critical for one to arrive at any economic conclusions, whether
   free-market or otherwise, Boettke says.
   
   Scott Beaulier, a second-year doctoral student, says, "If you want to
   criticize the mainstream, you've got to know it inside and out."
   
   One of the main hurdles for all Austrian economists is to establish
   credibility in a world that views their beliefs as suspect, at best.
   In truth, many economists hold some Austrian-style views, yet the mere
   mention of the Austrian school causes their eyes to glaze over.
   
   "No one is out there saying `I am now an Austrian," says Vaughn,
   director of the Markets and Institutions program. "You say the
   Austrian school and people say `Oh, that.'"
   
   Vaughn, who has been at GMU for 23 years, says despite such attitudes
   the school has done well placing students in teaching positions.
   
   "There are some departments that won't touch us with a 10-foot pole,"
   she acknowledges, "but we do well placing [students] at liberal arts
   colleges."
   
   However, the university has not done as well placing students as
   instructors in other doctoral programs, which limits the effectiveness
   of the program. While GMU attracts many students through Austrian
   professors in undergraduate programs, the lack of doctoral programs
   with Austrian offerings is a problem.
   
   "George Mason," Boettke says with a laugh, "is kind of a monopolist at
   the moment."
   
On GMU's shoulders

   GMU came to have the only dedicated Austrian program in the nation
   partly by chance, as formerly strong programs at New York University
   and Auburn University have fallen by the wayside.
   
   The Auburn demise did not result from a disagreement over the Austrian
   approach but rather was one of the casualties when the entire doctoral
   program in economics was shut down because of funding problems.
   
   NYU, which was considered by many to have the strongest program and
   has the best academic reputation of the three universities, made more
   of a conscious decision to shy away from Austrian teachings. The
   school no longer offers an Austrian alternative in its doctorate
   program, although it does offer one in a master's degree.
   
   The NYU program also lost its leader when Israel Kirzner retired
   recently. Kirzner is widely considered the most influential Austrian
   economist alive, and his retirement was a huge blow to the NYU
   program.
   
   "It was a major hit to us as a school of thought," Boettke says.
   
   So that leaves GMU. And, to hear some tell it, Boettke himself.
   
   "Peter is an amazing guy," says Cato's deRugy. "You can talk with him
   about so many different things."
   
   In fact, many current and former students gush about Boettke as the
   driving force behind the program.
   
   "He's basically supporting the program here," says Beaulier. "It kind
   of rests on his shoulders."
   
   Such a reference conjures up visions of Atlas -- specifically the epic
   novel, "Atlas Shrugged," by philosopher Ayn Rand, who espoused
   individualism and laissez-faire capitalism. But the affable Boettke
   shows little sign of the strain. Instead, he continues to look for
   ways to place his students where they have the best chance to make an
   impact.
   
   Boettke acknowledges that many dismiss the Austrian school out of
   hand, so he advises students to "look out the window and see the
   puzzles in the world," then use Austrian economics to help frame their
   arguments.
   
   "We need to try to solve real problems that other people care about,"
   he says.
   
How the world works

   Meanwhile, although most Austrians are predicting bad times ahead for
   the world economy -- and have been for quite some time -- Boettke has
   a much more sanguine view.
   
   While he acknowledges recent events have tempered his optimistic
   outlook somewhat -- "the war economy is certainly not good for the
   economy" -- Boettke continues to believe the forces of capitalism and
   entrepreneurship will win out and raise living standards for all.
   
   He doesn't have sympathy for those who refuse to embrace capitalism
   and then blame America for their woes.
   
   "We have no responsibility whatsoever in the poverty of these
   countries," he says. "It is a result of the stupid policies of their
   governments, and we should not shy away from this fact."
   
   So, while the rest of the economics profession struggles to understand
   why the U.S. economy keeps getting worse, GMU's Austrian students
   quietly go on with their studies. And, they hope, prepare for the day
   when others will give them more than a passing glance.
   
   "If you want a hot-shot career at an Ivy League school, don't come
   here," Vaughn says. "But if you want to really understand how the
   world works, I can't think of a better place to go."
   

-- 
Churchill, Winston Leonard Spencer --On the eve of Britain's entry
into World War II:
	"If you will not fight for right when you can easily win 
without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be 
sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will 
have to fight with all odds against you and only a precarious 
chance of survival. There may be even a worse fate. You may have 
to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to 
perish than to live as slaves.




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Wed Oct 24 07:47:58 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 10:47:58 -0400
Subject: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and boun
	ds)
Message-ID: 


> Tim May[SMTP:tcmay at got.net]
> 
> 
> One minute spent searching on "anthrax ames" will disabuse the clueful 
> of the mistakes made above.
> 
> The Ames strain is _not_ "militarized anthrax."
> 
> --Tim May
> 
>From what I heard yesterday, the 'Ames strain' was, until 1996, mailed
to researchers the world over with few checks, for veterinary and medical 
research purposes. 

If so, it's presence in the envelopes tells us little about the source.

BTW: My understanding is that the USPS plans to irradiate mail
with UV light. This could kill spores on the outside, but won't 
affect film, seeds, or properly packed biological materials.

Peter Trei

 




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Wed Oct 24 10:52:42 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 10:52:42 -0700
Subject: Market Competition for Security Measures
Message-ID: <3BD6FFEA.58BA0D70@lsil.com>


You seem to have left out the fact that the single largest player in the
"market" today is the government. The security measures that are now in
place for air travel are IMHO an abuse by regulators that amounts to
using a private actor as a proxy for an illegal search : to whit names,
flight numbers and dates. Feinstein was on the news this morning talking
about using airlight flight manifests to develop databases for tracking
movements.

As far as I am concerned an airline ticket should be a bearer instrument
entitling the holder to passage. Their job is to get people from A to B.
I should be able to travel as Ben Franklin with an ID I printed myself
as long as the fare has been paid. The reasons for my travel, how and
when I paid for my ticket and the date of my return trip are irrelevant.
Had the cockpit doors been secure, the pilots able to watch CCTV of the
passenger areas, plainclothes police been aboard and the info gained
from Ramzi Yousef's PC captured in Manila been incorporated into hijack
training and protocols 911 would not have happened even if half of al
Quaeda had been flying United that day.

About the only implementation of a trust certificate that would be
acceptable is one that was issued after convincing the issuer that you
were a "good guy" and was tied to you by perhaps a biometric and a PIN
attribute but for which all connections to your identity were not
stored. IOW, "we don't know who you are but we believe the certificate
belongs to you, we trust the issuer and they trusted you so off you go
then."

I'm sure there are protocols for proving membership without betraying
identity.

I want a choice in whether I leave a record of my travels or not. For
estate reasons I may want to escrow my travel records for the duration
of the trip. Bottom line : I want more control, more freedom, not less.

Mike




From honig at sprynet.com  Wed Oct 24 11:05:49 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 11:05:49 -0700
Subject: USPS:  glowing by leaps and bounds
In-Reply-To: <1E894BF0-C8A5-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>
References: 
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011024110549.00851790@pop.sprynet.com>


At 10:32 AM 10/24/01 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>On Wednesday, October 24, 2001, at 10:14 AM, Sampo Syreeni wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, David Honig wrote:
>>
>>> Enough rads to sterilize?  Forget film.
>>
>> What do you suppose happens to disks and other magnetic media at these
>> flux levels?
>
>
>Nothing. Magnetic oxides and metallic thin films are not affected by 
>mere few tens of kilorads, or even by megarads.
>
>Ionizing radiation has no particular first order effect on such films.
>

Um, Tim, I was talking about silver-halogen photographic 'films'.


You do raise the question of what happens to 100-atom thick gate oxides...
but that's not what *I* was writing about.

Radiation can also change the color of gems --used to 'cheat' and make
them more valuable--- but probably not a lot of diamonds go through the USPO,
and I don't know what dosage is necessary to introduce the appropriate defect
density.




From k1rwc at mtdata.com  Wed Oct 24 08:10:28 2001
From: k1rwc at mtdata.com (RWBRIGGS)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 11:10:28 -0400
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <000801c15c9e$05fdecc0$dfbd1ed0@richard>


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From tcmay at got.net  Wed Oct 24 11:17:23 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 11:17:23 -0700
Subject: Market Competition for Security Measures
In-Reply-To: <3BD6FFEA.58BA0D70@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <5F3F657D-C8AB-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Wednesday, October 24, 2001, at 10:52 AM, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote:

> You seem to have left out the fact that the single largest player in the
> "market" today is the government.

That's the sea the fish swim in...so pervasive that no one needs 
reminding of it.

I am arguing for increased privatization, through simple measures.
>

> The security measures that are now in
> place for air travel are IMHO an abuse by regulators that amounts to
> using a private actor as a proxy for an illegal search : to whit names,
> flight numbers and dates. Feinstein was on the news this morning talking
> about using airlight flight manifests to develop databases for tracking
> movements.

I don't support this government role.

By the way, there are reports (maybe reposted here) that some hotel 
chains are "cooperating" in programs to link their data bases of hotel 
reservations with airline reservations with government files. So that 
"Joe Businessman" has booked a room at the San Francisco Hyatt Regency, 
Hyatt will link to his flight. Links to his company are next. The 
argument will be that this allows taking him off the list of suspects to 
scrutinize.

We are headed toward a fully-credentialized society. No doubt with 
European-type laws requiring identification for all hotel check-ins. 
(I've been forced to show my driver's license at hotels for the past 
dozen years or so. "Cash" has been discouraged, though it's not illegal, 
yet, for hotels and motels to take cash and no I.D. It likely soon will 
be.)




>
> As far as I am concerned an airline ticket should be a bearer instrument
> entitling the holder to passage. Their job is to get people from A to B.
> I should be able to travel as Ben Franklin with an ID I printed myself
> as long as the fare has been paid. The reasons for my travel, how and
> when I paid for my ticket and the date of my return trip are irrelevant.

You are welcome to look for a carrier that operates this way, in my 
scheme.

But if Tim's Airline wants your fingerprints and retinal scans and a 
hefty security bond, you are free to find another carrier.

>
> About the only implementation of a trust certificate that would be
> acceptable is one that was issued after convincing the issuer that you
> were a "good guy" and was tied to you by perhaps a biometric and a PIN
> attribute but for which all connections to your identity were not
> stored. IOW, "we don't know who you are but we believe the certificate
> belongs to you, we trust the issuer and they trusted you so off you go
> then."
>
> I'm sure there are protocols for proving membership without betraying
> identity.
>
> I want a choice in whether I leave a record of my travels or not. For
> estate reasons I may want to escrow my travel records for the duration
> of the trip. Bottom line : I want more control, more freedom, not less.

I don't disagree with your "wants," but the trends are not in our favor.

Privatizing security at least gets market forces back into the equation, 
which they've been out of for far too long.


--Tim May
"Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But 
stupidity is the only universal crime;  the sentence is death, there is 
no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity." 
--Robert A. Heinlein




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Wed Oct 24 08:30:40 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 11:30:40 -0400
Subject: Why use Wurd?
References: <7C992CE9-C77E-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>
  <3BD59DEE.5B9ECA5B@cybershamanix.com>
  <20011023200834.B20046@positron.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3BD6DEA0.36F8F609@acmenet.net>


"Riad S. Wahby" wrote:

> Strange that you would go to all the trouble.  I'll take emacs and
> LaTeX2e any day of the week.  Who needs WYSIWYG when you can make
> nicer-looking documents in less time using a Turing-complete document
> formatting / programming language?

Compatability with Wurd users. A lot of customers, especially suit
types, give you Word and Excel files (or, worse, PowerPoint, gag), even
when the app is being implemented on *NIX. A fair number of commercial
publications want articles and stories to be submitted as Word docs. And
sometimes when you're putting in a bid to a corp, they require the
proposal both as hardcopy and as Word and Excel files.


-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From wolf at priori.net  Wed Oct 24 11:33:42 2001
From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 11:33:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Market Competition for Security Measures
In-Reply-To: <1047397B-C8A0-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: 


On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Tim May wrote:

I don't have time to respond in depth to the points Tim makes here, so I
have snipped a lot of them. I intend to come back and comment in more
detail later.

Largely, I am in agreement. However, in the paragraphs I've quoted below,
Tim touches on a counter-argument and dismisses it. I'll like to expand
upon that a bit.

> * one size does _not_ fit all. Not all passengers are equally likely to
> be security risks. This is common sense, but the civil libertarians call
> it "racial profiling." True civil libertarians know that owners of
> property (e.g. United Airlines) are free to implement security
> procedures as they see fit. If ABX Airlines wants to implement full body
> searches of passengers and XYZ Airlines wants to implement no security
> at all, to first order this should be a market decision.
>
> (There are interesting issues of "danger to others." Friedman the
> Younger covers this in his recent book on economics. "Law's Order." To
> wit, XYZ Airlines, with no security procedures, might be denied use of
> various airports, etc. A standard tort issue. The outcome is not
> precisely known, but a move toward "market competition for security
> measures" would flesh out many of these issues and outcomes.)

I think that this "danger to others" issue will lead us right back where
we started. It would not simply be an issue of various airports denying
use, but also communities denying airspace rights. And you can bet that,
in a world where airlines were permitted to have no security procedures,
XYZ Airlines would also have to abide by "no-fly zones" set up by the
larger, more security-conscious cities, enforceable by SAMs.

There would probably be places in the mid-west that permitted such
airlines to operate their services. But the market would surely kill them
swiftly if they were denied the ability to fly or land in any popular
area. Customers would go elsewhere, not because of the lax security, but
because of the limited service offerings.

If planes didn't bring down office buildings, if there were no issue of
airline policies posing a danger to others, perhaps this would be
different.


-MW-




From measl at mfn.org  Wed Oct 24 09:40:48 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 11:40:48 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Cypherpunks idiots list
In-Reply-To: <3e6e21eb9ccfd4723fc3f7c95930da94@dizum.com>
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 23 Oct 2001, Nomen Nescio wrote:

[much "you suck" elided]

> Note: if you are an idiot, you may not like being informed
> of this fact. 

Glass houses...

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org <---- no doubt the source of the "low paying
                       system administrator" poke.  Obviously,
                       the All Knowing Nomen doesn't realize that
                       I don't get paid for this one _at all_.

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From enenkio at webtv.net  Wed Oct 24 14:43:19 2001
From: enenkio at webtv.net (Robert Moore)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 11:43:19 -1000 (HST)
Subject: Welcome to the EnenKio Online Network
Message-ID: <4827-3BD735F7-982@storefull-617.iap.bryant.webtv.net>


Welcome to the EnenKio Online Network
These pages, this website, the former web host (NetNation), the
government of the Kingdom of EnenKio and the people loyal to the king of
Eneen-Kio Atoll have been subjected to a wide assortment of deliberate
disruptive actions by persons and agencies of the federal government of
the United States.
The reasons for these attacks are unknown, as EnenKio seeks only peace
and the freedom to express the fundamental rights of the people of
EnenKio, its monarch and the imperatives bestowed upon us by our loving
Creator.
The following site has been restored to acquaint you with history,
claims and challenges we face as a people striving for equality in a
world of antagonist nations seeking egocentric goals to dominate lesser
nations as "savior."
ENTER NOW
Send questions about this site to Administrator.  Copyright 2001 - All
Rights Reserved.
Background Photo: Courtesy EnenKio Archives
"Peacock Point, Wake Island"

Robert Moore, Minister Plenipotentiary, Kingdom of EnenKio Foreign Trade
Mission
DO-MO-CO Manager, Remios Hermios Eleemosynary Trust, Majuro, Marshall
Islands
http://www.enenkio.org




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Oct 24 11:44:13 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 11:44:13 -0700
Subject: USPS:  glowing by leaps and bounds
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011024110549.00851790@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <1E817232-C8AF-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Wednesday, October 24, 2001, at 11:05 AM, David Honig wrote:

> At 10:32 AM 10/24/01 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>> On Wednesday, October 24, 2001, at 10:14 AM, Sampo Syreeni wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, David Honig wrote:
>>>
>>>> Enough rads to sterilize?  Forget film.
>>>
>>> What do you suppose happens to disks and other magnetic media at these
>>> flux levels?
>>
>>
>> Nothing. Magnetic oxides and metallic thin films are not affected by
>> mere few tens of kilorads, or even by megarads.
>>
>> Ionizing radiation has no particular first order effect on such films.
>>
>
> Um, Tim, I was talking about silver-halogen photographic 'films'.
>

And I was replying to Sampo Syreeni, who asked "What do you suppose 
happens to disks and other magnetic media at these flux levels?"

I wasn't commenting on photographic film.

>
> You do raise the question of what happens to 100-atom thick gate 
> oxides...
> but that's not what *I* was writing about.
>

See above about what I was replying to.

--Tim May
"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone.
I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout"  
--Unknown Usenet Poster




From measl at mfn.org  Wed Oct 24 09:46:05 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 11:46:05 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: USPS:  glowing by leaps and bounds
In-Reply-To: <3BD59F8C.46CBDAFD@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 23 Oct 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote:

>       Shit, so much for ordering mushroom spores by mail! Hopefully UPS
> and fedex won't follow suit.

you should be aware that FedX now carries a large (majority?) portion of
the US mails, under contract.  This is the reason that FedX drop boxes
were just put in your local post office.

 -- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From measl at mfn.org  Wed Oct 24 09:48:12 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 11:48:12 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps
 and  bounds)
In-Reply-To: <3BD5F6D4.19EDB98B@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 23 Oct 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote:

>         The really weird thing about this whole anthrax scene is that all
> the spores seem to be of the Ames variety, which is a militarized anthrax

Shouldn't this read "non-militarized"?  The Ames strain is a standardized
research strain, used primarily (AFAIK) in veterinary research.

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From tony20r at aol.com  Wed Oct 24 08:55:53 2001
From: tony20r at aol.com (tony20r at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 11:55:53 EDT
Subject: (no subject)
Message-ID: <8c.e723f91.29083e89@aol.com>

hi my name is tony20r at aol.com i hit the jack pot on the ali baban slots last 
nightand 
i want to know how do i get my money 1307.75 that i won i worte to pogo.com 
they did not get back to me yet or do i call aol i need some feed back please
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From honig at sprynet.com  Wed Oct 24 12:01:31 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 12:01:31 -0700
Subject: Sheeple earning sheeps' disease (Re: Neverending Cycle ( was :
  Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and  bounds ))
In-Reply-To: <3BD6F65F.6AED2207@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011024120131.008308a0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 10:11 AM 10/24/01 -0700, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote:
>David Honig  wrote :
>>
>>Personally I'd prefer a non-colonial foreign policy that doesn't generate
>>such antipathy.  
>>
>>The message of the WTC is this: regular ole' non-mil sheeple *are* held
>>responsible for
>>the actions of their government.  *Even* in the US.  What a concept.
>>I suppose the sheeple in Dresden (etc.) know what that's like.  
>>
>>When the US populations' endocrines settle down, maybe they'll clue in to
>>cause and effect.  Doubt it.  Getting involved in others' family feuds is
just
>>too much fun.
>>
>>What was it General Washington said about foreign entanglements?  I'd tattoo
>>it onto every congressvermin's forehead.
>>


>Not that it isn't a good direction to head but I wonder what your
>time-scale is for the conversion of a society that cannot survive
>without an influx of inexpensive resources from foreign sources into
>something less colonial? It has to be decades at a minimum.

Tomorrow.  No USG money, no USG troops outside the US.

>In the meantime how do we deal with the Islamic Fundamentalist nutters?

We have an immediate obligation to fight back.   If we can find something
to hit.
This is not an exception to the above withdrawl --this is striking back, to
maintain
our reputation, only.  

But we can certainly let the foreign tyrants whom we currently defend, at our
peril (and frankly disgrace), fend for themselves.

Let *their* oppressed earn *their* freedom.  Let US citizens go over and fight
if they want to, as private citizens, as many did during e.g., the spanish
civil war.  But as a government do not engage in foreign entanglements.
Because
karma happens.  Behavior has consequences.  

Otherwise, sheeple will continue to earn sheeps' disease --anthrax, etc.
As you say, the US is far too vulnerable, and will shut down ---which 
is one of the Jihad's goals.  Part of 'getting our attention'.

>Or our own Christian Fundamentalist nutters for that matter. I don't
>want to hear about good and evil, Christian vs. Muslim, True faiths vs.
>ersatz faiths or right vs. wrong. 

But you *will* when the interventionists gripe about how oppressed the poor
inhabitants are, and "shouldn't we intervene?".  Of course the
interventionists
want to spend *your* money and your offspring pursuing *their* grand plans.
 Which look
much like colonialism and culture war from the other side.

The crew that did the WTC is
>dangerous. Those who are sending anthrax through the mails are
>dangerous. 

No argument there.

Near-term solutions are called for. I would like to see
>solutions that don't involve further trashing of our civil rights but I
>have no compassion for the terrorists or freedom fighters or whatever
>the hell you want to call them.
>
>Mike

I'm waiting for some asian caucus to declare that, given the circumstances,
all arabs should be sent to Nevada.

.....
If you look up "Schelling points" you find Tim's 
http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.1996.07.25-1996.07.31/msg00032.html
metaphor about interfering with another family because you disapprove of
how they raise their children.  Basically the Soviet Union "died and left
US boss" of the neighborhood.  But the US, playing self-appointed cop, 
has made lots of enemies; and even cops must sleep.  The sleeping giant
finds that someone has tried to burn his house down while he sleeps.
The giant needs to hit back, then stop accumulating enemies.

Free trade does not make enemies.  Government intervention does.
Funny how consensual acts are ok and nonconsensual ones not.

...
Mind you, I believe in right and wrong -hell, I quote Rand- and 
I'd be happy forcing all the tyrant-governments (from the French, English,
Mexican, etc. 
to the Saudis) to accept the US constitution, *all of it*, or else.  
But that's questionable and going to create enemies.  If someone did that
to you, you might take up arms too (or planes, or spores, given the
asymmetry).

Best to stay out of their family feuds (Yugoslavia, Palestine, Ireland,
Spain, africa, etc.) and don't force them to "do it our way or else" --even
though our way is the right way.  
Lead by example.  Not intervention.  

...
To those who gripe we need the oil (or other resources): ask the families of 
the WTC corpses if doubled gas prices (for a few years until a safer supply
rises) 
are worth it.




From jya at pipeline.com  Wed Oct 24 12:05:06 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 12:05:06 -0700
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_MATT_DRUDGE_//_DRUDGE_REPORT_2001=AE?=
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011024083934.03a087c8@pop3.lvcm.com>
References: <3BD6045E.FD112C86@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <200110241611.MAA27446@barry.mail.mindspring.net>


Hillary was in good company: Richard Gere got booed for
suggesting tolerance not vengeance, and the NYC Fire 
Commissioner got booed the loudest by firemen for being
a publicity whore and Guiliani flunkey who has been trying
for years to cut back on firefighting services under Rudy's
orders. The Fire Commish is the one who agreed with
the Port Authority to lock the roof doors of the Twin Towers
to prevent access by suiciders and antenna thieves, and
lately hot-footing hamburgers.

Two hovering police choppers waited for people to come
to the roof, rescue hoists ready, but none made it past the 
locked doors -- a couple of the doorbangers cellphoned 
home to scream bloody murder.

The Fire Department's response: the point is moot, time
to move on to the future, recalling the exculpation of the 
Holocaust IBM Excuser-Investors.

This is not to say that fist fights between NYC police
and firemen at disaster sites over who is the bravest
in union negotiations is not to be cheered. Rudy alternates
caps emblazoned with NYFD and NYPD until contract
renewal time then he hops to W$.




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Oct 24 12:14:19 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 12:14:19 -0700
Subject: Market Competition for Security Measures
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <53103929-C8B3-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Wednesday, October 24, 2001, at 11:33 AM, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote:
> Largely, I am in agreement. However, in the paragraphs I've quoted 
> below,
> Tim touches on a counter-argument and dismisses it. I'll like to expand
> upon that a bit.

I didn't "dismiss" it. In fact, I wrote more about this issue, which I 
haven't seen brought up by anyone else here, than 95% of all posts to 
Cypherpunks have in their entire amount of original material!
>>
>> (There are interesting issues of "danger to others." Friedman the
>> Younger covers this in his recent book on economics. "Law's Order." To
>> wit, XYZ Airlines, with no security procedures, might be denied use of
>> various airports, etc. A standard tort issue. The outcome is not
>> precisely known, but a move toward "market competition for security
>> measures" would flesh out many of these issues and outcomes.)
>
> I think that this "danger to others" issue will lead us right back where
> we started. It would not simply be an issue of various airports denying
> use, but also communities denying airspace rights. And you can bet that,
> in a world where airlines were permitted to have no security procedures,
> XYZ Airlines would also have to abide by "no-fly zones" set up by the
> larger, more security-conscious cities, enforceable by SAMs.

I never claimed that a stable end-state is that of some airlines have 
"no security procedures." Such was not the case before 911, so it is 
even less likely today.

I don't know what the evolution will look like. The ecology of the 
security measures will probably, if allowed to by regulators, have a few 
hyper-conscious players like El Al, a few cattle car playes like People 
Express, and a bunch of players in between.

I was not "dismissing" this issue of collateral damage, of tort damage. 
I said Friedman explores such things in great detail.

However, the current system does not allow the positive effects I 
described. Any airline in the U.S. (or many other countries) which 
attempted some obvious security measures would face lawsuits by 
"discriminated against" customers.

This is a more pressing problem than some extremely unlikely scenario 
wherein some carrier adopted a "no security procedures" policy.

> There would probably be places in the mid-west that permitted such
> airlines to operate their services. But the market would surely kill 
> them
> swiftly if they were denied the ability to fly or land in any popular
> area. Customers would go elsewhere, not because of the lax security, but
> because of the limited service offerings.

You are making my point, not arguing against it. I never claimed that a 
spectrum of security measures would be a stable, or even a short-term, 
state.

May's Law: The longer the essay, the more complaints there are that it 
was not detailed enough.

--Tim May
"That government is best which governs not at all." --Henry David Thoreau




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Wed Oct 24 04:23:28 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 12:23:28 +0100
Subject: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and
  bounds )
References: <3BD5C1D3.FBD76E8@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <3BD6A4B0.FD5D8C54@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


mmotyka at lsil.com wrote:
> 
> > Shit, so much for ordering mushroom spores by mail!
> > Hopefully UPS and fedex won't follow suit.
> >
> Another option might be for each package to be dropped into a poly bag,
> heat sealed and rinsed before being handled by staff.
> 
> Our society has, for all practical purposes, endless vulnerabilities. If
> as each vulnerability is exploited we plan on taking drastic steps to
> secure it from future exploitation, the costs will be staggering and the
> list of unsecured items will hardly diminish. The result of the current
> approach is an authoritarian society with a neverending, self-justifying
> security project ahead of it. Sounds like a wonderful place to live if
> you're an insect.

So we get either the Caves of Steel   or the Naked Sun?

I'd go for the former, being a city boy, but I guess T. May, H. Seaver &
D. Honig  might prefer the hyper-exurbia of the latter.  One step from
the Machine Stops - set not in the ultimate city but in the ultimate
suburb.

Ken




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Oct 24 12:24:23 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 12:24:23 -0700
Subject: Schelling points and political isolationism
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011024120131.008308a0@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: 


On Wednesday, October 24, 2001, at 12:01 PM, David Honig wrote:

Many excellent points...

...

> If you look up "Schelling points" you find Tim's
> http://www.inet-
> one.com/cypherpunks/dir.1996.07.25-1996.07.31/msg00032.html
> metaphor about interfering with another family because you disapprove of
> how they raise their children.  Basically the Soviet Union "died and 
> left
> US boss" of the neighborhood.  But the US, playing self-appointed cop,
> has made lots of enemies; and even cops must sleep.  The sleeping giant
> finds that someone has tried to burn his house down while he sleeps.
> The giant needs to hit back, then stop accumulating enemies.


And my meta-Schelling point was actually that the concept of a Schelling 
point is itself a Schelling point: many people, even animals, come to 
the independent conclusion that figuring out where the Schelling points 
are is a good survival strategy. (Or something like this....you get the 
drift.)

Free societies operate mainly on the basis of local, mutually 
agreed-upon transactions. Organized crime usually pops up when some 
bunch of distant thugs sets up rules which distort these mutually 
agreed-upon transactions. The rise of the Mob during Prohibititon is a 
perfect example, oft-discussed. The rise of many crime units, including 
government crime operations, during the War on Some Drugs in the past 35 
years is another perfect example.
> ...
> To those who gripe we need the oil (or other resources): ask the 
> families of
> the WTC corpses if doubled gas prices (for a few years until a safer 
> supply
> rises)
> are worth it.

Even the Gulf War is a good example of this. There is no reason to 
believe Saddam Hussein would have "cut off the oil." Just the opposite, 
in fact. There is every reason to believe that a mostly modern society 
like Iraq (as of 1990) would have had far more pressures to pump oil 
than a small clique of Bedouin thieves would have to do so.

Evidence is strong that Iraq would have flooded the markets with oil.

I'm not defending Saddam as a Good Guy, just saying vital national 
interests were not involved. By getting into these "foreign 
entanglements," things have gotten much worse.



--Tim May, Occupied America
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety 
deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759.




From fgz50drb at vtlink.net  Tue Oct 23 21:36:17 2001
From: fgz50drb at vtlink.net (Margo Lamonica)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 12:36:17 +0800
Subject: BIG DISCOUNT PHARMACY, PILL ONLY AT $ 69, BUY TODAY pybp
Message-ID: <744u188w.5183677@vtlink.net>

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From wolf at priori.net  Wed Oct 24 12:58:36 2001
From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 12:58:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Market Competition for Security Measures
In-Reply-To: <53103929-C8B3-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: 


On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Tim May wrote:

> I didn't "dismiss" it. In fact, I wrote more about this issue, which I
> haven't seen brought up by anyone else here, than 95% of all posts to
> Cypherpunks have in their entire amount of original material!

My apologies. Dismiss was not the correct word.

I suppose I view this issue as a larger hurdle then you do.

> I never claimed that a stable end-state is that of some airlines have
> "no security procedures." Such was not the case before 911, so it is
> even less likely today.

[snip]

> You are making my point, not arguing against it. I never claimed that a
> spectrum of security measures would be a stable, or even a short-term,
> state.

Okay. I took your thoughts to mean that you were envisioning a market
where the level of security provided by the airlines was completely under
the control of the airlines themselves, and would be adjusted by the
airlines according to the demands of the customers (and to a lesser
extent, the employees and share-holders) so that the airline could remain
profitable.

My point was that such a system wouldn't get off the ground. The issue
isn't simply *actual* collateral damage. Airlines would have to get
permission to use the airspace their planes would occupy. If an airline's
proposed security measures didn't meet with the requirements for the
community controlling the airspace that airline wished to utilize, the
airline wouldn't ever have the chance to see how the market would react to
its security offering. I think it's a non-starter, because the potential
collateral damage and the reliance on third-party "right-of-ways" is too
great.

Such a system could work well in other instances, though.

Compare to private railway lines. A private train service would be able to
initiate such a system with much greater ease, since there is much less
potential collateral damage, and less use of third-party resources and
property.

Call me a pessimist, but I can't see how an airline with "less than
acceptable for the Common Good" security measures would ever be able to
begin operating. I don't think we'd ever have the opportunity to see what
the market reaction would be -- the airline would not fly one plane.

> May's Law: The longer the essay, the more complaints there are that it
> was not detailed enough.

Oh, Tim... I wasn't complaining. You asked for thoughts, and I was
offering mine.


-MW-




From hakkin at sarin.com  Wed Oct 24 13:04:17 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 13:04:17 -0700
Subject: Where the torture never stops..
Message-ID: <3BD71EC1.86EE3CA6@sarin.com>


Wednesday October 24 2:24 PM ET

Pakistani Held in Attack Probe Dies in U.S. Jail

NEWARK, N.J. (Reuters) - A Pakistani arrested on immigration charges in
the U.S. probe of last month's suicide plane
attacks has been found dead in his jail cell in New Jersey, but the
cause of death is not yet known, a state official said
on Wednesday.

The body of the 55-year-old man, whose identity was not released, was
found in his cell on Tuesday at the Hudson
County jail in Kearny, said Jacob Delemos, a spokesman for the Hudson
County executive's office.

Delemos said officials administered a nasal swab on the body to test for
anthrax and the result was negative. Anthrax, a
potential germ warfare agent, has killed at least three people in the
United States this month and the government fears its
spread may be the work of those responsible for the Sept. 11 plane
attacks.

He said the man was arrested on Sept. 19 ``along with others in that
aggressive approach of the FBI'' after the attacks
on the 110-storey twin towers of the World Trade Center, Washington and
Pennsylvania that killed more than 5,000
people. He said the man was being held on immigration charges.

Delemos said more than three weeks ago the man had complained of gum
pain and showed signs of gingivitis, according
to the county medical examiner. He was treated with an antibiotic
between Oct. 1 and Oct. 6.

Representatives of the FBI and the Immigration and Naturalization
Service were not immediately available to comment.

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/nm/20011024/ts/attack_newjersey_detainee_dc_1.html

Flies all green and buzzin',
                               in this dungeon of despair.
                               Prisoners grumble and piss their clothes,

                               and scratch their matted hair.
                               A tiny light, from a window hole,
                               a hundred yards away,
                               is all they ever gets to know
                               about the regular light in the day.

                               And it stinks so bad, the stones been
chokin',
                               and weepin' greenish drops.
                               In the room where the giant fire puffer
works,
                               and the torture never stops.

                               The torture never stops.

                               Slime and rot, rats and snot,
                               and vomit on the floor.
                               Fifty yoogly soldiers, man,
                               holdin' spears by the iron door.
                               Knives and spikes, and guns and the likes

                               of every tool of pain.
                               And a sinister midget, with a bucket and
a mop,
                               where the blood goes down the drain.

                               And it stinks so bad, the stones been
chokin',
                               and weepin' greenish drops.
                               In the room where the giant fire puffer
works,
                               and the torture never stops.

                               The torture never stops.
                               The torture.. the torture..
                               The torture never stops.

                               Flies all green and buzzin',
                               in this dungeon of despair.
                               An evil prince eats a steaming pig,
                               in a chamber right near there.
                               He eats the snouts and the trotters
first.
                               The loins and the groins is soon
dispersed.
                               His carvin' style is well rehearsed.
                               He stands and shouts:

                               All men be cursed!
                               All men be cursed!
                               All men be cursed!
                               All men be cursed!

                               And disagree?
                               Well, no one durst.

                               He's the best, of course, of all the
worst.
                               Some wrong been done, he done it first.

                               And it stinks so bad, his bones been
chokin',
                               and weepin' greenish drops.
                               In the night of the iron sausage,
                               where the torture never stops.

                               The torture never stops.
                               The torture.. the torture..
                               The torture never stops.

                               Flies all green and buzzin',
                               in this dungeon of despair.
                               Who are all those people,
                               that he's locked away down there?
                               Are they crazy?
                               Are they sainted?
                               Are they zeroes,
                               someone painted?

                               And it's never been explained,
                               since it first it was created.
                               But a dungeon, like a sin,
                               requires not but lockin' in,
                               of everything that's ever been.
                               Look at her.
                               Look at him.

                               That's what's the deal we're dealin' in.
                               That's what's the deal we're dealin' in.
                               That's what's the deal we're dealin' in.
                               That's what's the deal we're dealin' in.




From freematt at coil.com  Wed Oct 24 10:08:40 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 13:08:40 -0400
Subject: More on F(u)ck Nortel & F(u)ck China's Golden Shield &
  JungleMUX
Message-ID: 


[Note from Matthew Gaylor:  I purposefully choose the "F" word to 
describe my utter contempt of Nortel for supplying the technology to 
China used to suppress free speech and freedom. Several of my readers 
did the usual hand wringing worrying about getting the "F" word in 
their Dilbertized corporate business environments. Of special 
interest to the Brin watchers out there is "the promotion of 
JungleMUX which allows video surveillance data to be transported from 
remote cameras back to a centralized surveillance point at the 
Chinese Ministry of Public Security (MPS)".  Naturally several of my 
subscribers didn't get an opportunity to even read my original 
uncensored post due to their filtering software catching the dreaded 
"F" word and rejecting my post.  Here are a couple of examples:

At 12:04 PM -0400 10/22/01, postmaster at bellsouth.com wrote:
>From: postmaster at bellsouth.com
>Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 12:04:59 -0400
>To: freematt at coil.com
>Subject: Re: Fuck Nortel & Fuck China's Golden Shield
>
>WE CANNOT HANDLE ANY REQUESTS THAT DO NOT FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS IN 
>THIS EMAIL ----- Based on an automated review of the content in a 
>message you sent to BellSouth personnel, the message appears to be 
>unsolicited commercial e-mail or to contain content that we deem 
>inappropriate for our business environment. The message has been 
>blocked from delivery. BellSouth.com is the BellSouth corporate 
>domain and messages addressed to users at this domain are for 
>delivery to BellSouth personnel on BellSouth corporate e-mail 
>systems. If you intended to send your message to a user at BellSouth 
>Internet Services, our public Internet service provider, please 
>readdress it to @bellsouth.net. If your message was intended 
>for BellSouth personnel and feel you received this message in error, 
>please forward this message, the address that you are trying to send 
>to, and any questions to postmaster at bellsouth.com 
>.(Q1-1)

And

At 11:47 AM -0400 10/22/01,  wrote:
>Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 11:47:58 -0400
>X-Autogenerated: Reply
>From: 
>To: Matthew Gaylor 
>Subject: Bad words..
>
>Matthew Gaylor !
>We got your message 
>on Mon, 22 Oct 2001 11:27:59 -0400.
>With the Subject:
>Fuck Nortel & Fuck China's Golden Shield
>Please remove the bad word from the Subject and send again.


Nortel helping China to overhaul state surveillance architecture


By John Leyden
Posted: 22/10/2001 at 16:40 GMT


Human rights activists have launched an attack on Nortel Networks, accusing
it of contributing to human rights violations in China by helping the
country overhaul its ageing surveillance technologies.

The "Great Firewall of China", which controls content entering the country,
is failing, largely due to the increased volume of Internet traffic in
China, so the Chinese are looking to build a more sophisticated system
involving content filtration, and the monitoring of individual users.

That's one of the main conclusion in a report by The International Centre of
Human Rights & Democratic Development (ICHRDD) which states: "Old style
censorship is being replaced with a massive, ubiquitous architecture of
surveillance: the Golden Shield."

"Ultimately the aim is to integrate a gigantic online database with an
all-encompassing surveillance network - incorporating speech and face
recognition, closed-circuit television, smart cards, credit records, and
Internet surveillance technologies," it adds.

Many other Western firms are also involved in the development of China's
state security apparatus but Nortel, which like the human rights group, is
based in Canada, has come in for particular criticism in ICHRDD's report.
Among the Nortel projects singled out for criticism are:

Nortel's joint research with Tsinghua University on speech recognition
technology, for the purpose of automated surveillance of telephone
conversations

The Canadian firm's support for FBI plans to develop a common standard to
intercept telephone communications, known as CALEA, in conjunction with
technology transfer through its joint venture, Guangdong Nortel (GDNT)

The promotion of JungleMUX which allows video surveillance data to be
transported from remote cameras back to a centralized surveillance point at
the Chinese Ministry of Public Security (MPS)

The deployment of Nortel's "Personal Internet" suite in Shanghai, "greatly
enhancing the ability of Internet service providers to track the
communications of individual users"

A US$10 million project, involving Nortel, to build a citywide fibre-optic
broadband network in Shanghai (OPTera) enabling central authorities to
monitor subscribers at the "edge" of the network, principally through the
Shasta 5000 firewall.

Nortel's integration of face recognition and voice recognition technology in
collaboration with AcSys Biometrics, a subsidiary of Canadian firm NEXUS

Nortel is no stranger to controversy with its Personal Internet technology,
which was criticised on its announcement in February by consumers activists
and anti-junk mail campaigners, and has rejected ICHRDD criticism.

"Nortel Networks categorically rejects in the strongest possible terms the
notion that we are collaborating with any government to repress the human
rights or democracy of its citizens," a statement by Nortel said.

"Nortel Networks is a longstanding supplier of advanced telecommunications
products and technology in China where we have a broad range of customers.
Nortel Networks sells the same range of products and solutions in China as
we do elsewhere."

This response cut little ice with ICHRDD which believes Nortel's technology
will be used to clamp down on political dissent.

On September 28, four Chinese citizens were tried for subversion for
participating in an on-line pro democracy forum. The four are but the most
recent of several arrests in recent years for Internet-related crimes.

Pacific rim leaders are expected to announce an "anti-terrorism" pact at the
APEC summit this week which human rights advocates fear could be used to
excuse increased crackdowns on Internet privacy and human rights,
particularly in authoritarian states such as China. R

---


**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
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**************************************************************************




From declan at well.com  Wed Oct 24 10:17:54 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 13:17:54 -0400
Subject: lne down?
In-Reply-To: <3BD6D262.F37AD056@cybershamanix.com>; from
  hseaver@cybershamanix.com on Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 09:38:29AM -0500
References: 
  <3BD6D262.F37AD056@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <20011024131754.A16681@cluebot.com>


Lne.com, at least based on what I saw, sent no outgoing messages from
about 7 pm ET yesterday until 12 noon today.

-Declan


On Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 09:38:29AM -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>     So what's wrong with lne.com -- majordomo responds to info
> cypherpunks, but nothing's coming thru since last night, and nothing on
> inet.com either except from toad and ssz?
> 
> --
> Harmon Seaver, MLIS
> CyberShamanix
> Work 920-203-9633
> Home 920-233-5820
> hseaver at cybershamanix.com
> http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Wed Oct 24 13:39:01 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 13:39:01 -0700
Subject: Is there a subway in DC?
In-Reply-To: <3BD5DFE9.38E3277A@sarin.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011024133427.02fe83f0@idiom.com>


The DC Metro is one of the nicer subways systems in the country.
And for both NYC and DC, the subway definitely beats most other
transportation methods - neither city could support even the
parking needs for their residents or workers if everyone drove,
and busses aren't managed in a way that they could replace subways,
particularly because even with many more of them,
they'd be stuck in traffic that the subways can avoid.

Besides, especially in NYC, there are so many interesting people
that you encounter on the subways :-)


At 02:23 PM 10/23/2001 -0700, Khoder bin Hakkin wrote:
>And why are NYC prison^H^H^H^H^H^Hinhabitants
>still taking subways?
>
>http://books.nap.edu/books/0309068495/html/223.html#pagetop




From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Wed Oct 24 13:57:59 2001
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 13:57:59 -0700
Subject: phone service
Message-ID: <000a01c15cce$92468cc0$fd9ba940@default>

i would like to know more about the long distance service please call me at (530) 895-8880 thx
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 399 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From dog3 at ns.charc.net  Wed Oct 24 11:06:41 2001
From: dog3 at ns.charc.net (cubic-dog)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 14:06:41 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: <20011022102814.A4453@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: 


On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Eric Murray wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 08:44:09AM -0700, Tim May wrote:
>  
> > "Sure, unions are good" is not at all obvious to me. Why do you claim 
> > this?
> > 
> > Most labor unions are simply rent-seeking clubs designed to cement the 
> > status quo. Teacher's unions in the U.S. are a prime example: once the 
> > union got powerful enough, it fought for a tenure-type system which made 
> > it nearly impossible to remove those who taught poorly and to reward 
> > those who taught especially well.
> > 
> > I've never belonged to a labor union of any kind, and they are 
> > essentially absent from the chip and computer industries.
> > 
> >  From what I have seen, labor unions are a collectivist evil.
> 
> Same here.
> 
> The union management quickly becomes yet another set of bosses.
> You'd have to be an idiot to voluntarily request that you have
> TWO sets of bosses instead of one.
> 

True, Unions are idiotic.

Being the spawn of the southwest wv coal fields, 
I can promise that the boss who tries to get you
some pay is somewhat better than the boss who just as soon
have you machine gunned if you don't want to work
for free. 




From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Wed Oct 24 12:30:57 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 14:30:57 -0500
Subject: [Fwd: [biofuel] VW presents new synthetic fuel strategy]
Message-ID: <3BD716D3.D822DC6D@cybershamanix.com>


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [biofuel] VW presents new synthetic fuel strategy
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 18:29:19 +0900
From: Keith Addison 
To: biofuel at yahoogroups.com

http://www.news24.co.za/News24/Wheels24/News/0,3999,2-15-47_1083848,00.html

21/09/2001 14:38  - (SA)

VW presents new synthetic fuel strategy

In the context of its fuel strategy released at the recent Frankfurt 
IAA Motor Show, Volkswagen sees SunFuel as a key step towards 
environmentally compatible mobility. The new fuel offers considerable 
potential for the optimisation of conventional engines. SunFuel is 
also suitable for use in fuel cell systems with reformers.

On this basis, it will be possible to fill up fuel cell vehicles with 
a fuel produced from renewable resources without developing costly 
new infrastructure of the type which would be needed for hydrogen 
fuel.

SunFuel is a synthetic fuel produced from biomass by a regenerative 
process. Natural photosynthesis is used for fuel production. Plants 
develop biomass from atmospheric carbon dioxide with the aid of 
energy from the sun.

To a large extent, this biomass consists of carbon and hydrogen. In 
the first step of the SunFuel process, these major constituents of 
biomass are converted into synthesis gas (H2, CO, CO2). This is then 
transformed into hydrocarbons in a synthesis reactor and processed as 
required to produce the "designer" fuel.

SunFuel is an extremely high-grade fuel, free from sulphur and 
aromatics. As biomass binds carbon dioxide during growth, the process 
is neutral with regard to carbon dioxide production. A variety of 
different types of biomass can be used for the synthesis of the new 
fuel.

On the one hand, fast-growing, sturdy, resilient plants such as sedge 
(Miscanthus), poplars or willows can be grown. On the other hand, 
waste products containing carbon and hydrogen, such as sewage sludge, 
plastics or household refuse, can also be processed.

SunFuel must not be confused with Biodiesel. While only rapeseed oil 
is used for Biodiesel production, the SunFuel process taps the energy 
contained in the entire plant.

The use of SunFuel is highly environmentally compatible. In contrast 
to fossil fuels such as oil or natural gas, no additional carbon 
dioxide is produced during the combustion of SunFuel. As it is free 
from sulphur and aromatics, the new fuel also ensures a significant 
reduction in all types of emissions normally measured, especially 
particulate matter.

According to Dr Ulrich Eichhorn, Head of Volkswagen Research, 
"SunFuel opens up additional new perspectives. To date, engine 
developers have been forced to work with the fuel qualities 
available. Now, synthetic fuels of a variety of types can be produced.

"Not only petrol or diesel fuels can be synthesized from biomass. A 
number of intermediate stages are also possible. On this basis, there 
could be further rapprochement between petrol and diesel technology. 
In this way, the benefits of a diesel engine, such as low 
consumption, could be further expanded and combined with the very low 
emissions of a petrol engine with three-way catalytic converter.

"The designer fuel can be mixed with conventional petrol or diesel 
without any problems. SunFuel could therefore be introduced in a 
gradual transition process.

"In order to produce SunFuel for all the diesel-engined vehicles in 
Germany, it would be necessary to plant about 20 000 square 
kilometres. Currently, this area is certainly not available. However, 
the area of agricultural set-aside, about 10 000 square kilometres, 
could be used for growing energy plants for fuel production.

"The production of synthetic fuels from natural gas is a 
state-of-the-art technology. The properties of the fuel do not 
change. However, this type of synthetic fuel can result in a carbon 
dioxide saving if associated gas (for instance, the gas produced 
together with oil, which is normally flared) is used."

Volkswagen sees hydrogen as a possible fuel of the future. However, 
it will be best to combine hydrogen with fuel cell technology.

According to Dr Eichhorn, "There are still at lest three 
technological barriers to overcome: the regenerative production, 
storage and distribution of hydrogen. Volkswagen therefore believes 
that hydrogen technology will not be used before 2015."

Hydrogen will only result in a reduction in carbon dioxide emissions 
if it is produced from renewable sources. However, carbon dioxide 
reduction with regenerative energy production is not only possible if 
elementary hydrogen is used as a fuel. SunFuel can be stored and 
distributed using existing infrastructure and is less costly to 
produce than hydrogen. This is why Volkswagen sees SunFuel as a 
promising fuel for the future.


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From pam at synapse.com  Wed Oct 24 15:14:25 2001
From: pam at synapse.com (Pam Cholinesterase)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:14:25 -0700
Subject: make the correct decision, Mitch --kill yourself now
Message-ID: <3BD73D40.19986C28@synapse.com>


Dear Friend Mitch Shoemaker
                    82 north iron st.
                    Bloomsburg pa,17815

Hey Mitch baby, what's wrong, your ENVELOPE STUFFING JOB getting a bit
intense?

Allergies to your new latex gloves?

We'll remember that when we're buggering you in hell, spammer.

THANKS TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET!




From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Wed Oct 24 15:28:15 2001
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:28:15 -0700
Subject: Where the torture never stops..
In-Reply-To: <3BD71EC1.86EE3CA6@sarin.com>
Message-ID: <001001c15cdb$2c803f00$ea3a080a@vaio>


Undoubtedly, the bruises on the suspect's body and the electrical burn
marks on his testicles were self-inflicted... Oh, I see. The FBI will
release the suspect's body only after cremation. "For the public's
safety". Never mind my comment.

I didn't see it mentioned on this list, though I may have overlooked the
post, but the recent statements by the FBI that the agency is
considering torture of suspects stubbornly exercising their 5th
Amendment rights after 6 weeks of questioning is solid proof that the
subjects do not have legal representation. Even the most incompetent
public defender would by now have requested that the FBI stop question
their client.

--Lucky


> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com 
> [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com] On Behalf Of Khoder bin Hakkin
> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 1:04 PM
> To: cypherpunks at lne.com
> Subject: Where the torture never stops..
> 
> 
> Wednesday October 24 2:24 PM ET
> 
> Pakistani Held in Attack Probe Dies in U.S. Jail
> 
> NEWARK, N.J. (Reuters) - A Pakistani arrested on immigration 
> charges in the U.S. probe of last month's suicide plane 
> attacks has been found dead in his jail cell in New Jersey, 
> but the cause of death is not yet known, a state official 
> said on Wednesday.
> 
> The body of the 55-year-old man, whose identity was not 
> released, was found in his cell on Tuesday at the Hudson 
> County jail in Kearny, said Jacob Delemos, a spokesman for 
> the Hudson County executive's office.
> 
> Delemos said officials administered a nasal swab on the body 
> to test for anthrax and the result was negative. Anthrax, a 
> potential germ warfare agent, has killed at least three 
> people in the United States this month and the government 
> fears its spread may be the work of those responsible for the 
> Sept. 11 plane attacks.
> 
> He said the man was arrested on Sept. 19 ``along with others 
> in that aggressive approach of the FBI'' after the attacks on 
> the 110-storey twin towers of the World Trade Center, 
> Washington and Pennsylvania that killed more than 5,000 
> people. He said the man was being held on immigration charges.
> 
> Delemos said more than three weeks ago the man had complained 
> of gum pain and showed signs of gingivitis, according to the 
> county medical examiner. He was treated with an antibiotic 
> between Oct. 1 and Oct. 6.
> 
> Representatives of the FBI and the Immigration and 
> Naturalization Service were not immediately available to comment.
> 
> http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/nm/20011024/ts/attack_newjersey
> _detainee_dc_1.html
> 
> Flies all green and buzzin',
>                                in this dungeon of despair.
>                                Prisoners grumble and piss 
> their clothes,
> 
>                                and scratch their matted hair.
>                                A tiny light, from a window hole,
>                                a hundred yards away,
>                                is all they ever gets to know
>                                about the regular light in the day.
> 
>                                And it stinks so bad, the 
> stones been chokin',
>                                and weepin' greenish drops.
>                                In the room where the giant 
> fire puffer works,
>                                and the torture never stops.
> 
>                                The torture never stops.
> 
>                                Slime and rot, rats and snot,
>                                and vomit on the floor.
>                                Fifty yoogly soldiers, man,
>                                holdin' spears by the iron door.
>                                Knives and spikes, and guns 
> and the likes
> 
>                                of every tool of pain.
>                                And a sinister midget, with a 
> bucket and a mop,
>                                where the blood goes down the drain.
> 
>                                And it stinks so bad, the 
> stones been chokin',
>                                and weepin' greenish drops.
>                                In the room where the giant 
> fire puffer works,
>                                and the torture never stops.
> 
>                                The torture never stops.
>                                The torture.. the torture..
>                                The torture never stops.
> 
>                                Flies all green and buzzin',
>                                in this dungeon of despair.
>                                An evil prince eats a steaming pig,
>                                in a chamber right near there.
>                                He eats the snouts and the 
> trotters first.
>                                The loins and the groins is 
> soon dispersed.
>                                His carvin' style is well rehearsed.
>                                He stands and shouts:
> 
>                                All men be cursed!
>                                All men be cursed!
>                                All men be cursed!
>                                All men be cursed!
> 
>                                And disagree?
>                                Well, no one durst.
> 
>                                He's the best, of course, of 
> all the worst.
>                                Some wrong been done, he done it first.
> 
>                                And it stinks so bad, his 
> bones been chokin',
>                                and weepin' greenish drops.
>                                In the night of the iron sausage,
>                                where the torture never stops.
> 
>                                The torture never stops.
>                                The torture.. the torture..
>                                The torture never stops.
> 
>                                Flies all green and buzzin',
>                                in this dungeon of despair.
>                                Who are all those people,
>                                that he's locked away down there?
>                                Are they crazy?
>                                Are they sainted?
>                                Are they zeroes,
>                                someone painted?
> 
>                                And it's never been explained,
>                                since it first it was created.
>                                But a dungeon, like a sin,
>                                requires not but lockin' in,
>                                of everything that's ever been.
>                                Look at her.
>                                Look at him.
> 
>                                That's what's the deal we're 
> dealin' in.
>                                That's what's the deal we're 
> dealin' in.
>                                That's what's the deal we're 
> dealin' in.
>                                That's what's the deal we're 
> dealin' in.




From declan at well.com  Wed Oct 24 12:33:39 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:33:39 -0400
Subject: Democratic critters' biochemwomdterror plans
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20011024153335.02681080@mail.well.com>


>* * * * * MEDIA ADVISORY * * * * *
>
>NEWS FROM THE OFFICE OF THE DEMOCRATIC LEADER
>
>______________________________________________________
>
>FOR IMMEDIATE 
>RELEASE:                                                  House Democratic 
>Leader Richard A. Gephardt
>Wednesday, October 23, 
>2001 
>H-204, U.S. Capitol
>
> 
>http://democraticleader.house.gov/
>
>GEPHARDT, MENENDEZ TO ANNOUNCE DEMOCRATIC BIOTERRORISM LEGISLATION
>
>WASHINGTON, DC -- Rep. Bob Menendez (D-NJ), Vice Chair of the Democratic 
>Caucus and Chair of the Democratic Task Force on Homeland Security, joined 
>by Democratic Leader Richard Gephardt and Members of the Task Force, will 
>announce the Democratic proposal to prepare and protect communities 
>throughout America against future threats or attacks.
>
>The Democratic Bill, the Bioterrorism Protection Act (BioPAct) of 2001, 
>seeks to eliminate biological threats, secure our borders on land and at 
>sea, protect our food and water, equip our communities with the resources 
>to prevent and respond to bioterrorism, and strengthen our Intelligence 
>through full coordination, using our most advanced technology to fight 
>bioterrorism.
>
>WHO: Gephardt, Menendez, Democratic Task Force on Homeland Security
>WHAT: Democratic Bioterrorism Bill
>WHEN: Thursday, October 25th, 10:00 a.m
>WHERE: House Triangle
>(This event will replace the usual stakeout following the Democratic Caucus)
>                                ###




From verba at rol.it  Wed Oct 24 06:41:32 2001
From: verba at rol.it (verba at rol.it)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:41:32 +0200
Subject: Verba Volant 24-10-01
Message-ID: <1003938093@web2bk.logos.it>


Verba Volant 24-10-01,
Every day a new quotation translated into many languages. 

Logos Translations - www.logostranslations.com 
_________________

Quotation of the day:
Author - Albert Einstein
http://www.logos.it/bio/albert_einstein.html

English - I am not only a pacifist but a militant pacifist. I am willing to fight for peace
Italian - non soltanto sono pacifista... sono un pacifista militante. Sono disposto a lottare per la pace
Spanish - no soy s�lo pacifista, sino pacifista militante. Estoy dispuesto a combatir por la paz
French - je ne suis pas seulement pacifiste, mais pacifiste militant; je suis pr�t � me battre pour la paix
Portuguese - n�o s� sou pacifista, como tamb�m sou um pacifista militante. Estou disposto a lutar pela paz
German - ich bin nicht einfach Pazifist� ich bin ein militanter Pazifist, der bereit ist, f�r den Frieden zu k�mpfen
Hungarian - �n nem csup�n pacifista, hanem harcos pacifista vagyok. A b�k��r�t k�sz vagyok ak�r harcolni is
Finnish - en ole vain pasifisti, olen militantti pasifisti. Olen valmis taistelemaan rauhan puolesta
Catalan - no nom�s soc pacifista, soc un pacifista militant. Estic dispost a lluitar per la pau
Croatian - nisam samo pacifist...ja sam borbeni pacifist. Spreman sam da se borim za mir
Czech - nejsem jen pacifista ... jsem pacifista militatntn�. Jsem pripraven za m�r bojovat
Dutch - ik ben niet enkel een pacifist maat een militante pacifist. Ik ben bereid om voor vrede te vechten
Emiliano-Romagnolo - a so pazifista pi� d'na muliga... a so pazifista cumbatent. A so pront a ragner par la pesa
Furlan - no dome 'o soi pacifist... 'o soi un pacifist militant. 'O soi dispuest a lot� par la p�s
Latin - non solum pacis amator sum,..sed strenuus. Ad pugnandum pro pace paratus sum
Polish - nie tylko jestem pacyfista...jestem pacyfista walczacym.Jestem gotowy walczyc o pok�j
Romanian - nu sunt doar pacifist, sunt un pacifist militant. Sunt dispus sa lupt pentru pace
Slovak - nie som iba pacifista...som militantn� pacifista. Som pripraven� za mier bojovat
Venetian - no so solo on pacifista ... so on pacifista militante. So disposto a lotare per la paxe
Sicilian - non sulu sugnu pacifista... sugnu un pacifista militanti. Sugnu dispostu a luttari p' 'a paci
Flemish - ik ben niet enkel een pacifist maat een militante pacifist. Ik ben bereid om voor vrede te vechten
Ferrarese - an son brisa un pacifista e bona... a son un pacifista militante. A son dispost a far la guera par la pace
Bolognese - a n s�n br�sa s�ul un pazif�ssta... a s�n un pazif�ssta arab�. A s�n pr�nti anc a lut�r par la p�s 

_________________

All languages, please click on this link
http://www.rol.it/owa-k/press.frasiproc.carica?code=428
_________________

To unsubscribe from Verba Volant, please follow this link:
http://www.rol.it/owa-k/press.rol_ml.verbavolant 

and write in the empty field next to unsubscribe the email address that you find after "TO:" in the Verba Volant emails 
alternatively write to the following address: unsubscribe_volant at rol.it always copying the EMAIL address written after "TO:"




From declan at well.com  Wed Oct 24 12:47:51 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:47:51 -0400
Subject: George Mason U. adopts a free-market philosophy to an
  unusual degree
In-Reply-To: <20011024103411.C31325@neutraldomain.org>; from
  grocha@neutraldomain.org on Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 10:34:11AM -0700
References: <20011024103411.C31325@neutraldomain.org>
Message-ID: <20011024154751.A20148@cluebot.com>


On Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 10:34:11AM -0700, Gabriel Rocha wrote:
> http://washington.bcentral.com/washington/stories/2001/10/22/focus1.html
> 
> George Mason U. adopts a free-market philosophy to an unusual degree

I skimmed the article, and it seems decent, but entirely anticlimatic.

Any institution that would embrace IHS and the Mercatus Center is
"unusually" free-market.

-Declan




From keyser-soze at hushmail.com  Wed Oct 24 16:05:04 2001
From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 16:05:04 -0700
Subject: First, brand all the children
Message-ID: <200110242305.f9ON54A81248@mailserver1c.hushmail.com>


Brock,

You the problem in the cross hairs.  But what's to be done when your elected representative and fellow citizens are either too scared or don't care to discuss a plain reading of the constitution?  These ugly measures may cause some of us to assume that maybe the American revolution isn't over and that the ghost of George III and his Tories now reside in D.C.  Thank God so many of us own firearms and are therefore citizens and not merely subjects.

---------------------------------------------------
http://www.msnbc.com/news/646793.asp


First, brand all the children


Cyber-liberties swept away by tidal wave of security concerns


OPINION
By Brock N. Meeks
MSNBC


WASHINGTON, Oct. 24 - Anthrax, Afghanistan, al-Qaida, Ashcroft and
anti-terrorism legislation. We aren't even through the first letter of the
geopolitical alphabet before jumping all the way to "S" as in "screwed" as
in what's happening to civil liberties in the online world.




From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Wed Oct 24 16:09:10 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 16:09:10 -0700
Subject: Why Plan-9?
In-Reply-To: ; from wolf@priori.net on Tue, Oct 23, 2001 at 04:56:35PM -0700
References: <20011021171843.A2205@navel.introspect> 
Message-ID: <20011024160910.F2973@navel.introspect>

on Tue, Oct 23, 2001 at 04:56:35PM -0700, Meyer Wolfsheim (wolf at priori.net) wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Oct 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote:
> 
> > Summer, June/July, IIRC.  I've done a couple of look-ups since.  There's
> > been little additional news or information (I'm not saying none, I'm
> > saying little).  OpenBSD, a relatively little-known free 'nix, gets
> > rather more press and community coverage.
> 
> Little-known? That's unfair. OpenBSD is a fairly well known operating
> system, among the members of its target audience.

I'll leave grasping the concept of "relative mindshare" as an exercise
to the reader.

I use and admin an oBSD box myself.

> > Poor licensing choices are one of several key modes of failure for free
> > software projects.  If Plan 9 precedes forward, I expect to see another
> > two or three significant licensing revisions.
> 
> Explain the popularity of Unix, then.

I think Unix is an exemplar of my points, for its heyday.  Again,
"relative" is a core concept.

I couldn't do much better than Kernighan and Pike in _The UNIX
Programming Environment_, Chapter 10, Epilog, written in 1984:

    The UNIX operating system is well over ten years old,  but the
    number of computers running it is growing faster than ever.  For a
    system designed with no marketing goals or even intentions, it has
    been singularly successful....

    The main reason for its commercial success is probably its
    portability -- the feature that everything but small parts of the
    the compilers and kernel runs unchanged on any computer....  But the
    UNIX system was popular long before it was of commercial
    significance...  The 1974 CACM paper by Ritchie and Thompson
    generated interest in the academic community....Through the
    mid-1970s UNIX knowledge spread by word of mouth:  although the
    system came unsupported and without guarantee, the people who used
    it were enthusiastic enough to convince others to try it too....

    Why did it become popular in the first place?  ...[I]t was designed
    and built by a small number (two) of exceptionally talented people,
    whose sole purpose was to create an environment that would be
    convenient for program development, and who had the freedom to
    pursue that ideal....

    In that early system were packed a number of inventive applications
    of computer science, including stream processing (pipes), regular
    expressions, language theory...and more specific instances like the
    algorithms in diff....

    The UNIX system has since become one of the computer market's
    standard operating system, and with market dominance has come
    responsibility and the need for "features" provided by competing
    systems.  As a result, the kernel has grown in size by a factor of
    10 in the past decade....

    [A]lthough UNIX has begun to show some signs of middle age, it's
    still viable and still gaining in popularity.  And that popularity
    can be traced to the clear thinking of a few people in
    1969....  Although they didn't expect their system to spread to tens
    of thousands of computers, a generation of programmers is glad that
    it did.

This reads very much like a history of GNU/Linux, a similarity that
struck me at some of the recent Linux10 celebrations and preparations.
Change a few names and dates, and change user share to millions rather
than thousands, and you're about on-base.  

What K&P don't get into is the licensing terms of the first Unix
systems.  AT&T was enjoined by its ongoing anti-trust restrictions
(originating in 1911) which prohibited it from selling computer systems
(1949, 1956 agreements).  This meant that Unix was largely freely
distributable among computer systems of the day in the standard format
for data interchange:  research computers on university and corporate
campuses, via magtape.  It rose to dominance on the thousands of such
systems in existence from 1975 to 1985.  This didn't change until 1985
and the final anti-trust settlement and breakup of AT&T, at which point
bitter battles for control greatly hampered the Unix market, with
impacts felt to this day in the *BSD / GNU/Linux split.

Unix's success was based on its portability, liberal distribution terms,
practical applications, "building blocks" architecture, extensibility,
and continued viability with growth in size and popularity.

Note that today, the comparative advantage along many of these
dimensions lies with GNU/Linux.  Again, it's highly portable, licensing
is more liberal than proprietary Unices (with an ideological and
pragmatic scuffle between the BSDs and Linux on licensing terms and
adoption), the core "small, simple, does one thing" applications
philosophy largely persists.  Note that GNU/Linux is now growing in
market and mindshare, at a cost to both UNIX and alternative server
systems, particularly at the small end of the scale.  See Christensen's
_The Innovator's Dilemma_ for a general illustration of principles.

Peace.

-- 
Karsten M. Self        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?             Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html
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From faustine at lokmail.net  Wed Oct 24 13:17:14 2001
From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 16:17:14 -0400
Subject: Schelling points and political isolationism
Message-ID: <200110242017.QAA19869@mail.lokmail.net>

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From measl at mfn.org  Wed Oct 24 14:17:57 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 16:17:57 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: a question
In-Reply-To: <20011024025328.98790.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 23 Oct 2001, (na) mshoe wrote:

> I first want you to know I understand what you do but

Great!  Could you please explain it to *US* then?  I [seriously] doubt
that most of us know what it is we do here!

> I need to ask you to please remove the post from
> http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.2001.05.07-2001.05.13/msg00330.html

Information wants to be Free, Mitch.  Kinda sucks to be you, doesn't it?

> I am only 16 and just wanted to get some money the
> easy way at the time I had no idea that it was
> illegal.

But, as you indicated, you wanted it "the easy way" - TANSTAAFL.

> I know I made a mistake and I am sorry for
> it. I just want to put this mistake beind me and

It's good you can learn from your mistakes: it shows you are a little
higher on the food chain than most of the folks you will run into out
there.  Kudos.

> getting my family's address off the internet would be
> a big help. Please consider removing the postings.
> Thank You, Mitch

Unfortunately Mitch, that's not likely to be the only archive of your
posting(s).  I usually refer to google as "your friend", although in this
case...

Even if this archived post is killed by the persona running the archive
(which I doubt), you would still have an "internet history".  Probably a
lot more history than you expect: http://www.google.com .

You are right in your assessment that it is time to put your mistakes
behind you and move on, but unfortunately, there is literally no way [that
I know of] to "erase yourself from the face of the internet".

Good luck to you Mitch.

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From measl at mfn.org  Wed Oct 24 14:24:49 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 16:24:49 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 23 Oct 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> What does it mean to 'agree'? 

or, more to the point, what does "is" mean?

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From techdiff at ix.netcom.com  Wed Oct 24 16:27:10 2001
From: techdiff at ix.netcom.com (peter marshall)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 16:27:10 -0700
Subject: [Med-privacy] National Individual Identifier
Message-ID: 

National Individual Identifier
http://www.hipaadvisory.com/regs/natindivid/index.htm
_______________________________________________
Med-privacy mailing list
Med-privacy at lists.essential.org
http://lists.essential.org/mailman/listinfo/med-privacy

----- End forwarded message -----

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume




From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Wed Oct 24 16:27:25 2001
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 16:27:25 -0700
Subject: FINALLY! we can buy Staria
In-Reply-To: <20011023030629.5849.qmail@sidereal.kz>
Message-ID: <001801c15ce3$70a8d950$ea3a080a@vaio>


I don't understand why one would pay $1000 for a Starium device when
comparable devices are available in the market place for less than half
of that. The design goal for the new Starium boxes was sub-$100 retail.
I doubt that design goal was met, but I would not pay a penny over $350
for one device. Which will still leave the seller with a nice profit.

--Lucky

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com 
> [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com] On Behalf Of Dr. Evil
> Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 8:06 PM
> To: cypherpunks at lne.com
> Subject: FINALLY! we can buy Staria
> 
> 
> (is that the correct plural of Starium?)
> 
> http://www.tactronix.com/s100.htm
> 
> NOW TAKING PRE-ORDERS FOR DELIVERY IN DECEMBER 2001/JANUARY 2002
> 
> Very Limited Quantity Available
> 
> A 50% Deposit Will Reserve Your Units Today!!
> 
> 1-10 Units  $995 USD Each
> 
> 11-20 Units $936 USD Each
> 
> 21-50 Units $884 USD Each
> 
> 51 Units+ Call For Price
> 
> What do people here think of this?  My initial thoughts are:
> 
> Pros:
> 
> 1. Voice encryption is great.  It's the Last Great Encryption Taboo
>    (the other is file encryption, but that's not nearly as taboo as
>    voice).  I'm glad to see something on the market which addresses
>    this.  Obviously, all traffic, including saying hi to grandma,
>    should be encrypted.
> 
> 2. The unit looks very easy to use.  I could travel anywhere in the
>    world with it (well, anywhere that it's legal) and plug it in and
>    press one button and it works.  That's great.
> 
> Cons:
> 
> 1. I would like to see an open source reference software
>    implementation, or some way to verify that there are no "naughty
>    bits" in this thing.  I know, open source isn't much of a business
>    model, but with encryption products, it seems almost essential.
> 
> 2. It's expensive.  It costs more than a PC.  However, $2k for two
>    units is small compared to the value of data it could be securing,
>    so for many users, the price will be fine.
> 
> 3. A minor nitpick: It uses 3DES.  What's wrong with AES?
> 
> I think I would like to buy some of them, but I can't decide 
> if I want to be an early adopter, or wait for cheaper and 
> better versions to come out.




From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Wed Oct 24 16:30:24 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 16:30:24 -0700
Subject: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds )
In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@einstein.ssz.com on Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 05:57:06PM -0500
References: <3BD744B2.6F56CC2E@mozcom.com> 
Message-ID: <20011024163024.H2973@navel.introspect>

on Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 05:57:06PM -0500, Jim Choate (ravage at einstein.ssz.com) wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, F. Marc de Piolenc wrote:
> 
> > David Honig wrote:
> > 
> > > Personally I'd prefer a non-colonial foreign policy that doesn't generate
> > > such antipathy.
> > 
> > And if you believe that WTC had anything to do with US foreign policy,
> > or that we would cease being targets if we e.g. dropped suppport for
> > Israel, you are living in a dream world and have "bought" the
> > terrorists' propaganda.
> 
> Then why?

Read your Aesop:  the thief needs no excuse.

> > We need to send a message that "armed propaganda" is not an acceptable
> > form of self-expression, no matter what the alleged cause.
> 
> Review the American revolution and the current news before you follow
> this little meme very far.
> 
> What goes around comes around.

I tend to think of this as similar to cancer:  there's a stochastic
element, but there are environmental and hereditary factors as well.  I
do think we'll have to give up some bad habits.  Spontaneous incidents
will persist, however.

Peace.

-- 
Karsten M. Self        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?             Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html
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From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Wed Oct 24 16:40:29 2001
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 16:40:29 -0700
Subject: Conman, quantum entaglement and no cat
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <002001c15ce5$43906fd0$ea3a080a@vaio>


It would have been more impressive had Copperfield revealed the numbers
he predicted an hour /before/ the drawing...

--Lucky

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com 
> [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com] On Behalf Of Anonymous
> Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 4:01 PM
> To: cypherpunks at lne.com
> Subject: Conman, quantum entaglement and no cat
> 
> 
> http://www.thescotsman.co.uk/text_only.cfm?id=116404
> 
> 
> Magicians lottery list accurate
> 
> THE American illusionist David Copperfield said yesterday he 
> has been bombarded by requests for tips on the winning 
> numbers in Germanys national lottery on Saturday night - 
> numbers he said he predicted seven months ago.
> 
> Copperfield wrote down his forecast on 17 February for the 
> multi-million mark lottery drawing due on 13 October. The 
> prediction was sealed by a notary and locked in a box that 
> was kept under round-the-clock surveillance.
> 
> An hour after the winning numbers were drawn, the box was 
> opened on a live television broadcast and the numbers matched 
> the winning draw: 2, 9, 10, 15, 25, 38 and 4.
> 
> "It wasnt a trick," Copperfield told Bild am Sonntag 
> newspaper after the performance on the popular Wanna Bet? 
> show on ZDF television. "It was more an experiment and mental 
> exercise. We only use about 10 per cent of our brain capacity."
> 
> Copperfield said he is not tempted to play the lottery 
> himself because he would not be able to "see" the numbers. "I 
> used to try it out by giving friends the numbers, but then it 
> would never work," he said. "If the numbers arent kept 
> secret, it doesnt work."
> 
> Copperfield said hundreds of people had written him since 
> February begging him for tips on what numbers to pick. 
> "Hundreds of emails, so many letters and requests from people 
> in despair. " 
> 
> 
> 
> But can he do RSA keys ?
> 
> If he can, that would mean that they are truly random.
> 
> If he can't they are not.
> 
> This test should become a part of Diehard.




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Wed Oct 24 16:56:13 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 16:56:13 -0700
Subject: Conman, quantum entaglement and no cat
In-Reply-To: <002001c15ce5$43906fd0$ea3a080a@vaio>
Message-ID: 


Lucky wrote:

> It would have been more impressive had
> Copperfield revealed the numbers he
> predicted an hour /before/ the drawing...

Yes, but that would have required REAL magic (or time travel).

Incidentally, Penn sent a further reading suggestion on the subject of
"mentalism."  The book is called, Self-Working Mental Magic by Karl Fulves.


 S a n d y




From ask at sunfung.net  Wed Oct 24 14:12:20 2001
From: ask at sunfung.net (ask at sunfung.net)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 17:12:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Factory of Table Linens
Message-ID: <200110242112.f9OLCJ817381@db.dns-host.com>


Dear Sir/Madam:

We wonder if you might have the interest in importing embroidered tablecloths from us.

We as a manufacturer and an exporter has over 300 workers with 20 years
experience in making all sorts of embroidered tablecloths using fabrics of cotton. polyester, nylon, satin, etc.

We have stocks of tablecloths from time to time.

Should you be interested in importing tablecloths from us, please feel free to email us back with requirement information.

Sincerely,

Sarah Hung (President)

HEADQUARTERS IN HONG KONG:
Sun Fung Industrial (H.K.) Ltd
Room 804-806
Car Po Commercial Building
18-20 Lyndhurst Terrace
Central
Hong Kong
Tel:                 (852) 25417786
Fax:                 (852) 25503255
                        (852) 25448206
Mobile Phone: (852) 90501289
Email:               ask at sunfung.net
Web:                www.sunfung.net

FACTORY IN CHINA:
TONG FUNG TEXTILE AND ARTS CO. LTD.
WEST LAKE INDUSTRIAL ZONE
SINMIN TOWN TONGAN COUNTY
XIAMEN CHINA
Tel: (86) 5927022061
     (86) 5927029541
Fax: (86) 5927029337
Postcode: 361100





From uba_jega_aa at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 24 10:43:49 2001
From: uba_jega_aa at yahoo.com (uba_jega_aa at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 17:43:49 -0000
Subject: CONFIDENTIAL BUSINESS RELATIONSHIP
Message-ID: <37188.738765624998400.76609@localhost>


FROM:DR.UBA JEGA.
SATELLITE TEL.871-761-8888-31.
SATELLITE FAX.871-761-8888-32. 
Email:uba_jega_aa at yahoo.com

ATTN:PRESIDENT/CEO.

STRICTLY CONFIDENTIAL & URGENT BUSINESS PROPOSAL.

RE:TRANSFER OF U$21,500.000{TWENTY ONE MILLION FIVE
HUNDRED THOUSAND US DOLLARS ONLY.

I AM A MEMBER OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT OF NIGERIA
NATIONAL PETROLEUM CORPORATION(NNPC) SOMETIME AGO, A
CONTRACT WAS AWARDED TO A FOREIGN FIRM IN THE PTF BY
MY COMMITTEE. THIS CONTRACT WAS OVER INVOICED TO THE
TUNE OF US$21.5M US DOLLARS. THIS WAS DONE
DELIBRATELY. THE OVER- INVOICING WAS A DEAL BY MY
COMMITTEE TO BENEFIT FROM THE PROJECT. WE NOW WANT TO
TRANSFER THIS MONEY WHICH IS IN A SUSPENSE ACCOUNT
WITH PTF INTO ANY OVERSEA ACCOUNT WHICH WE EXPECT YOU
TO PROVIDE FOR US.

SHARE:

60% WILL BE FOR MY PARTNERS AND ME.
30% OF THE MONEY WILL BE YOURS FOR PROVIDING THE
ACCOUNT WHERE WE SHALL REMIT THE MONEY.
10%  HAS BEEN MAPPED OUT FROM THE TOTAL  SUM TO COVER
ANY EXPENSES THAT MAY BE INCURRED BY US DURING THE
COURSE  OF THIS TRANSFER, BOTH LOCAL AND INTERNATIONAL
EXPENSES.
IT MAY INTEREST YOU TO KNOW THAT SIMILAR TRANSACTION
WAS CARRIED OUT WITH ONE MR. PATRICE MILLER, PRESIDENT
OF CRANE INTERNATIONAL TRADING CORP. OF 153 EAST 57TH
ST; 28TH FLOOR, NY10022, TELEPHONE: 212-3087788 AND
TELEX:6731689. THE DEAL WAS CONCLUDED AND ALL COVERING
DOCUMENTS WERE FOWARDED TO MR. MILLER TO AUTHENTICATE
THE CLAIM. ONCE THE FUNDS WERE TRANSFERRED, MR. MILLER
PRESENTED HIS BANK WITH ALL THE LEGAL DOCUMENTS AND
REMITTED THE WHOLE FUNDS TO ANOTHER BANK  ACCOUNT AND
DISAPPEARED  COMPLETELY. MY COLLEAGUES WERE SHATTERED,
SINCE SUCH OPPORTUNITIES ARE NOT EASY TO COME BY.
AT THIS JUNCTURE, I WOULD LIKE TO LET YOU KNOW THAT 
IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN ASSISTING US IN THIS DEAL, WE
WOULD REQUIRE THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION FROM YOU,
WHICH WOULD ENABLE US MAKE FORMAL APPLICATION TO THE
VARIOUS MINISTRIES\PARASTATAL FOR THE RELEASE AND
ONWARD TRANSFER OF THE MONEY  TO YOUR ACCOUNT. THE
INFORMATION WE REQUIRE ARE:

YOUR  NAME, COMPANY`S NAME, ADDRESS , TELEFAX NUMBER.
YOUR BANK NAME ,ADDRESS, TELEFAX NUMBER.
YOUR BANK ACCOUNT NUMBER AND BENEFICIARY NAME.

WE HAVE STRONG RELIABLE CONNECTIONS AT THE CENTRAL
BANK OF NIGERIA AND OTHER GOVERNMENT PARASTATALS TO
ASSIST US IN THE DEAL, AND WHEN IT IS FINALLY
CONCLUDED WE SHALL USE SAME CONTACTS TO WITHDRAW ALL
DOCUMENTS USED TO AVOID ANY TRACE TO YOU OR US.
IT MIGHT ALSO INTEREST YOU TO KNOW THAT WE ARE
ORDINARY CIVIL SERVANTS WHO DO NOT WANT TO MISS THIS
OPPORTUNITY, SINCE WE WANT THIS MONEY TRANSFERRED
BEFORE THE NEWLY DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED GOVERNMENT
STARTS PROBING THE ACTIVITIES OF ALL PREVIOUS MILITARY
GOVERNMENTS.
PLEASE CONTACT ME THROUGH MY ABOVE TEL\FAX NUMBER
WHETHER OR NOT YOU ARE INTRESTED IN THIS DEAL. IF YOU
ARE NOT IT WILL ENABLE ME SCOUT FOR ANOTHER FOREIGN
PARTNER TO ASSIST US. BUT IF YOU ARE INTRESTED PLEASE
SEND THE REQUIRED INFORMATION IMMEDIATELY SO THAT WE
CAN SWING INTO ACTION, SINCE TIME IS NOT ON OUR PART.
I WAIT IN ANTICIPATION OF YOUR FULLEST CO-COPERATION.
YOURS FAITHFULLY,

DR.UBA JEGA.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Oct 24 15:57:06 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 17:57:06 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and  bounds )
In-Reply-To: <3BD744B2.6F56CC2E@mozcom.com>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, F. Marc de Piolenc wrote:

> David Honig wrote:
> 
> > Personally I'd prefer a non-colonial foreign policy that doesn't generate
> > such antipathy.
> 
> And if you believe that WTC had anything to do with US foreign policy,
> or that we would cease being targets if we e.g. dropped suppport for
> Israel, you are living in a dream world and have "bought" the
> terrorists' propaganda.

Then why?
 
> We need to send a message that "armed propaganda" is not an acceptable
> form of self-expression, no matter what the alleged cause.

Review the American revolution and the current news before you follow this
little meme very far.

What goes around comes around.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From attila at hun.org  Wed Oct 24 11:07:00 2001
From: attila at hun.org (attila!)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:07:00 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [RANT] National ID Card System Failing to Attract Supporters
Message-ID: <20011024180700.01D083465A@hun.org>

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From jya at pipeline.com  Wed Oct 24 18:07:04 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:07:04 -0700
Subject: WTC Choppers
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <200110242213.SAA08278@granger.mail.mindspring.net>


Frog wrote:

>Not a plausible claim, to anyone who recalls the situation at the
>top of the WTC on those days.  The incredible heat and smoke from
>an entire jetliner full of fuel a hundred feet below would make
>helicopter operations impossible.  Trying to land on the roof under
>those circumstances would be suicide.  Helicopters circled, but they
>could not approach.

That was the initial perception. The NY Times had a report
yesterday about a pilot of one of the police choppers who 
described his futile rescue attempt -- he was on the scene
within ten minutes of the crash. The pilot said the smoke 
was blowing away from Tower 1 (the first hit) so there was a 
fair sized refuge for people to stand in any had accessed the 
roof. 

A thicket of antennas would have prevented landing but the pilot 
said there was a hoist onboard with a 200 foot cable capable of 
picking up people. A colleague was ready to descend to the roof 
to assist. Nobody came to the roof.

Another chopper hovered nearby to do the same. Other choppers
were on their way from Long Island but flights were cancelled
when it was reported nobody was on the roof.

The pilot said it was possible that at least a dozen or so
people could have been rescued before the collapse.

The pilot said at the 1993 bombing a cop was lowered to
cut away a wad of antennas so roof pickups could be made,
but that was too risky on 911.

The Times report said that only Los Angeles allows chopper
rescue from high rise buildings. Most fire departments believe
chopper rescue is too high risk and that exit by stairway is far 
safer. But in the light of WTC collapse fire departments are 
reviewing that prohibition.

The NY Fire Department, like many FDs, has no choppers,
and sees police choppers as scenewhores. Not as bad
as Sir Rudy and the Fire Commish but close.




From fogstorm at mac.com  Wed Oct 24 18:19:20 2001
From: fogstorm at mac.com (FogStorm)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:19:20 -0700
Subject: Anthrax Letters
Message-ID: <50C451FC-C8E6-11D5-B41C-0030657961FE@mac.com>


Pictures of the Daschle, Brokaw, and NY Post anthrax letters + their 
envelopes.

http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel01/102301.htm




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Oct 24 16:22:58 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:22:58 -0500
Subject: CNN.com - House passes anti-terrorism bill - October 24, 2001
Message-ID: <3BD74D52.B13F97A3@ssz.com>


http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/10/24/rec.us.attacks.terrorlaws.ap/index.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Oct 24 16:37:54 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:37:54 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [psychohistory] A Terrorist's Nursery (fwd)
Message-ID: 



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 10:18:52 +0300
From: "[iso-8859-7] ������� �������" 
Reply-To: psychohistory at yahoogroups.com
To: psychohistory at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [psychohistory] A Terrorist's Nursery

Hi,
The following article appeared in the INDEPENDET and, in IMO, presends well
the Psychohistorical case of the 'making of terrorists'.
I make some comments at the bottom of the message.

[
Robert Fisk: As the refugees crowd the borders, we'll be blaming someone
else
'It is palpably evident that they are not fleeing the Taliban but our bombs
and missiles'
23 October 2001

Mullah Mohammed Omar's 10-year-old son is dead. He was, according to Afghan
refugees fleeing Kandahar, taken to one of the city's broken hospitals by
his father, the Taliban leader and "Emir of the Faithful", but the boy -
apparently travelling in Omar's car when it was attacked by US aircraft -
died of his wounds.

No regrets, of course. Back in 1985, when American aircraft bombed Libya,
they also destroyed the life of Colonel Muammar Gaddafi's six-year-old
adopted daughter. No regrets, of course. In 1992, when an Israeli pilot
flying an American-made Apache helicopter fired an American-made missile
into the car of Said Abbas Moussawi, head of the Hizbollah guerrilla army in
Lebanon, the Israeli pilot also killed Moussawi's 10-year-old. No regrets,
of course.

Whether these children deserved their deaths, be sure that their fathers -
in our eyes - were to blame. Live by the sword, die by the sword - and that
goes for the kids too. Back in 1991, The Independent revealed that American
Gulf War military targets included "secure" bunkers in which members of
Saddam Hussein's family - or the families of his henchmen - were believed to
be hiding. That's how the Americans managed to slaughter well over 300
people in an air raid shelter at Amariya in Baghdad. No Saddam kids, just
civilians. Too bad. I wonder - now that President George Bush has given
permission to the CIA to murder Osama bin Laden - if the same policy applies
today?

And so the casualties begin to mount. From Kandahar come ever more frightful
stories of civilians buried under ruins, of children torn to pieces by
American bombs. The Taliban - and here the Americans must breathe a
collective sigh of relief - refuse to allow Western journalists to enter the
country to verify these reports. So when a few television crews were able to
find 18 fresh graves in the devastated village of Khorum outside Jalalabad
just over a week ago, the US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld could
ridicule the deaths as "ridiculous". But not, I suspect, for much longer.

For if each of our wars for infinite justice and eternal freedom have a
familiar trade mark - the military claptrap about air superiority,
suppression of "command and control centres", radar capabilities - each has
an awkward, highly exclusive little twist to it. In 1999, Nato claimed it
was waging war to put Kosovo Albanian refugees back in their homes - even
though most of the refugees were still in their homes when the war began.
Our bombing of Serbia led directly to their dispossession. We bear a heavy
burden of responsibility for their suffering - since the Serbs had told us
what they would do if Nato opened hostilities - although the ultimate blame
for their "ethnic cleansing'' clearly belonged to Slobodan Milosevic.

But Nato's escape clause won't work this time round. For as the Afghan
refugees turn up in their thousands at the border, it is palpably evident
that they are fleeing not the Taliban but our bombs and missiles. The
Taliban is not ethnically cleansing its own Pashtun population. The refugees
speak vividly of their fear and terror as our bombs fall on their cities.
These people are terrified of our "war on terror'', victims as innocent as
those who were slaughtered in the World Trade Centre on 11 September. So
where do we stop?

It's an important question because, once the winter storms breeze down the
mountain gorges of Afghanistan, a tragedy is likely to commence, one which
no spin doctor or propaganda expert will be able to divert. We'll say that
the thousands about to die or who are dying of starvation and cold are
victims of the Taliban's intransigence or the Taliban's support for
"terrorism" or the Taliban's propensity to steal humanitarian supplies.

I have to admit - having been weaned on Israel's promiscuous use of the word
"terror" every time a Palestinian throws a stone at his occupiers - that I
find the very word "terrorism" increasingly mendacious as well as racist. Of
course - despite the slavish use of the phrase "war on terrorism" on the BBC
and CNN - it is nothing of the kind. We are not planning to attack Tamil
Tiger suicide bombers or Eta killers or Real IRA murderers or Kurdish KDP
guerrillas. Indeed, the US has spent a lot of time supporting terrorists in
Latin America - the Contras spring to mind - not to mention the rabble we
are now bombing in Afghanistan. This is, as I've said before, a war on
America's enemies. Increasingly, as the date of 11 September acquires iconic
status, we are retaliating for the crimes against humanity in New York and
Washington. But we're not setting up any tribunals to try those responsible.

The figure of 6,000 remains as awesome as it did in the days that followed.
But what happens when the deaths for which we are responsible begin to
approach the same figure? Refugees have been telling me on the Pakistan
border that the death toll from our bombings in Afghanistan is in the
dozens, perhaps the hundreds. Once the UN agencies give us details of the
starving and the destitute who are dying in their flight from our bombs, it
won't take long to reach 6,000. Will that be enough? Will 12,000 dead
Afghans appease us, albeit that they have nothing to do with the Taliban or
Osama bin Laden? Or 24,000? If we think we know what our aims are in this
fraudulent "war against terror", have we any idea of proportion?

Sure, we'll blame the Taliban for future tragedies. Just as we've been
blaming them for drug exports from Afghanistan. Tony Blair was at the
forefront of the Taliban-drug linkage. And all we have to do to believe this
is to forget the UN Drug Control Programme's announcement last week that
opium production in Afghanistan has fallen by 94 per cent, chiefly due to
Mullah Omar's prohibition in Taliban-controlled areas. Most of Afghanistan's
current opium production comes - you've guessed it - from our friends in the
Northern Alliance.

This particular war is, as Mr Bush said, going to be "unlike any other" -
but not in quite the way he thinks. It's not going to lead to justice. Or
freedom. It's likely to culminate in deaths that will diminish in magnitude
even the crime against humanity on 11 September. Do we have any plans for
this? Can we turn the falsity of a "war against terror" into a war against
famine and starvation and death, even at the cost of postponing our day of
reckoning with Osama bin Laden?

]

Historicaly reprisals of a 10-fold of a 100-fold magnitude never worked in
the favore of those commiting them. Making a 'little' New York every day in
Afganistan, or anyware for that matter, just guarantees the creation of more
willing to die terrorists.
Of course 'our' governments already know this, thus an issue arrises: What's
in the long term agenda, if anything? The rhetiric and the 'official'
reasons given, ie. hunting down terrorists, retaliation to the patrons of
the Sept 11th events, punishing the guilty have only a short term value,
even without the cosideration of 'collateral damage', and will ultimately
lead to the creation of more willing to die terrorists. (Due to a mechanism
I call the "remaining leaven" - No matter the terrorists' death toll even
a - statisticaly expected - tiny bit of terrorist "yeast" will produce the
nesecary "leaven" that will fuel their future moves.
So, I speculate that there might be something more in it all...

Regards
Christos Konstas



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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Oct 24 16:42:35 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:42:35 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: <3BD6ADD4.A6B10F0@mozcom.com>
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, F. Marc de Piolenc wrote:

> Jim Choate wrote:
> > 
> > On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, F. Marc de Piolenc wrote:
> > 
> > > Elementary - fair is whatever the parties in interest agree to. Period.
> > 
> > 'agree' is synonymous with 'free' in this case. All you're doing is
> > playing word games and hand waving.
> > 
> > What does it mean to 'agree'? 
> 
> You are the only one here who seems to have a problem with the meaning
> of that word.

Hardly. I just happen to be the Mongoose in a pit of snakes, so it should
surprise nobody (especially the snakes) if they all hiss.

The bottem line is you say 'fair' is whatever the two parties 'agree' to.
All you've done is shift the focus from 'fair' to 'agree'. And that shifts
the focus of the question as well. What does it mean to 'agree'.

And to answer another question 'is' means 'equivalent to' or 'identical
with' depending on context. Both acceptable here.

This is especially enlightening coming from a group (CACL, not Cypherpunks
per se) who claim that 'free markets' are the epitome of utopian
strategies (and 'free' most definitely has a significant and particular
meaning in this context - and it doesn't support yorur view). You're only
proving my point. Thank you.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Oct 24 16:48:29 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:48:29 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Neverending Cycle
In-Reply-To: <20011024163024.H2973@navel.introspect>
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote:

> Read your Aesop:  the thief needs no excuse.

Read "Green River Anthology", we are what our environment makes of us.

That's the 'nature' aspect just in case you're confused. You can't have
one without the other (contrary to your claim).

No mand is an island. Being responsible for ones actions is not the same
as being responsible for who one is, or how they came to that end.

It's worth noting that Hayek (among many) makes great pains to make it
clear that he does not(!!!) support this sort of 'individualism'.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Wed Oct 24 18:59:20 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:59:20 -0700
Subject: Where the torture never stops..
In-Reply-To: <200110242318.TAA30103@granger.mail.mindspring.net>; from
  jya@pipeline.com on Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 07:12:13PM -0700
References: <3BD71EC1.86EE3CA6@sarin.com>
  <001001c15cdb$2c803f00$ea3a080a@vaio>
  <200110242318.TAA30103@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20011024185919.A10551@navel.introspect>


on Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 07:12:13PM -0700, John Young (jya at pipeline.com)
wrote:

> These procedures were described in exquisite detail during
> the USA v. bin Laden et al trial earlier this year:
>
>   http://cryptome.org/usa-v-ubl-dt.htm
>
> Use the search on Cryptome to find the transcripts describing
> the comb attack.

    http://cryptome.org/usa-v-ubl-72.htm

Peace.

--
Karsten M. Self        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?             Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]




From declan at well.com  Wed Oct 24 16:11:53 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 19:11:53 -0400
Subject: A champion of liberty speaks about privacy, cash smuggling
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20011024191059.02020b30@mail.well.com>


Debate last evening:

http://frwebgate1.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate.cgi?WAISdocID=9635463676+0+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve

   Mrs. ROUKEMA. Mr. Speaker, I thank the gentleman from Ohio (Mr.
Oxley) for yielding the time. I rise in strong support of this
legislation today.
   Many of us in this Chamber have worked for a number of years to
provide the law enforcement tools that we need to fight the drug trade,
money launderers, and terrorists; and in the wake of September 11, the
terrorist attacks, this has never been more important. And indeed, we
may soon learn that the anthrax attacks are financed by the same money
sources. We do not know that yet.
   The point is that, as has already been outlined, particularly by the
gentleman from New York (Mr. LaFalce), I want to commend him for
stating some of the specifics of this legislation. He has been a
leader, and we have [[Page H7203]] worked together on this, and whether we 
are talking about the bill
prohibiting correspondent banking privileges for offshore shell banks
and authorizes the Secretary of the Treasury to take special measures
if a foreign country or bank is deemed to present a money laundering
threat, the gentleman from New York (Mr. LaFalce) went into great
detail on that, and I want to associate myself with his remarks.
   The bill is not perfect. I am sorry that, for example, we excluded
making it a crime to smuggle over $10,000 interstate. We included it
for overseas, but it was not included for interstate. Nevertheless,
this is an excellent bill.
   I would like to say to some of the nay sayers that complain about the
provisions, as to whether or not they deny due process or whatever, the
question has been asked are we endangering the rights and privacy of
innocent Americans. The answer is no, but it does give our law
enforcement officials the requirements that they need for their careful
investigation. It gives our regulators and law enforcement officials
what they need to get the job done.
   May I say that in this brave new world of terrorists, we must cripple
this demonic network. Let me just have a couple of additional seconds
to say that unless we have this strong provision in the bill, it would
make a mockery of the legislation; and it is an absolutely essential
core of anti-terrorist legislation.




From jya at pipeline.com  Wed Oct 24 19:12:13 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 19:12:13 -0700
Subject: Where the torture never stops..
In-Reply-To: <001001c15cdb$2c803f00$ea3a080a@vaio>
References: <3BD71EC1.86EE3CA6@sarin.com>
Message-ID: <200110242318.TAA30103@granger.mail.mindspring.net>


This is a worthy topic for those who may soon be in the
position of the detainees.

Some accounts say that a fair number of the detainees are
in NYC. If that is so, then prisoner treatment is quite harsh,
not only by the guards but by magistrates and the US Attorney's
Office.

Defense attorneys are kept on a very, very short lease despite
complaints of unfair treatment of their clients and themselves.

These procedures were described in exquisite detail during
the USA v. bin Laden et al trial earlier this year:

  http://cryptome.org/usa-v-ubl-dt.htm

Use the search on Cryptome to find the transcripts describing
the comb attack.

The harsh treatment appears to have been the cause of one
prisoner attacking a guard (reputedly a soft-heart) with a 
sharpened comb, blinding the man in both eyes and causing 
permanent brain damage. The treatment then got worse, and 
likely continues for new detainees.

In the case of the deceased Pakistani in New Jersey's Hudson
County jail: that pen is well-known for its brutal treatment of
non-Mafia prisoners, especially if they are colored any shade 
other than vomit, and the Paki may have been taken out by the
guards and or other prisoners in patriotic fervor, or just 
as a result of the usual racist sadism.

Most federal, state and city jail guards hereabouts are about 
the same quality as airport security personnel, and get their 
kicks abusing prisoners, lying about it, and getting winked at
by judges and prosecutors. 24 x 7 tapes regularly disappear
in case of an incident.

If airport security is federalized watch your carass even more

than before terrorism became an excuse for suicide by cop.




From xeni at xeni.net  Wed Oct 24 19:46:47 2001
From: xeni at xeni.net (Xeni Jardin)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 19:46:47 -0700
Subject: stamps.com: buh-bye anonymous post-mail, hello smart "crypto
  postage."
Message-ID: 


Noted without comment: this stamps.com press release hit the wires earlier
today...
--XJ
------------------------
Stamps.com Technology Helps Improve Mail Security


Internal Task Force to Focus on Further Utilization of Internet Postage Security

SANTA MONICA, Calif. - October 24, 2001 - Stamps.comTM (Nasdaq: STMP).
Stamps.com announced today that it has appointed an internal task force to
explore new applications that further harness and utilize the security inherent
in its Internet Postage solution. Traditional stamped mail offers limited
security information. Stamps.com's Internet Postage service, on the other hand,
can provide extensive information regarding the sender's identity, point of
origination and the path taken through the mail system. Stamps.com intends to
develop new features to further improve mail security for its customers.

Stamps.com's Internet Postage solution utilizes Information Based Indicia, or
cryptographic two-dimensional barcodes, as a replacement for traditional
postage. This "intelligent" postage, which can be printed using standard PC
printers, contains important mail processing information that can provide
valuable assistance to authorities investigating inappropriate postal
activities.

"Stamps.com's secure technology provides mail recipients greater peace of mind,"
said Stamps.com CEO Ken McBride. "Each piece of mail sent using Stamps.com is
unique and traceable by authorities to its sender, thus serving as a deterrent
to those intent on using the postal system to do harm. Mail sent using the
Stamps.com service is also associated with an individual credit card or checking
account, which can further reduce the opportunity for abuse."

A trusted, efficient, and secure mail system has always been a cornerstone of
the American economy. Enhanced adoption of advanced technologies, such as
Stamps.com's Internet Postage service, can promote a higher level of security
within the mail system. Stamps.com continues to work with postal authorities to
encourage greater usage of Internet Postage.

"With a two-dimensional barcode on the envelope or package, recipients can feel
more assured today that the mail is traceable and secure. For the sender, a more
secure and professional looking mail piece will encourage the intended recipient
to open the package or envelope," said McBride.

About Stamps.com
Stamps.com (Nasdaq: STMP) is the leading provider of Internet-based postage
services. Its flagship product, Stamps.com Internet Postaged, enables customers
to print U.S. Postal Service-approved postage via a computer and Internet
connection.<...>


###




From john at kozubik.com  Wed Oct 24 19:48:03 2001
From: john at kozubik.com (John Kozubik)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 19:48:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: A champion of liberty speaks about privacy, cash smuggling
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20011024191059.02020b30@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: 


>    The bill is not perfect. I am sorry that, for example, we excluded
> making it a crime to smuggle over $10,000 interstate. We included it
> for overseas, but it was not included for interstate. Nevertheless,
> this is an excellent bill.

Can someone clarify the definition, in this context, of "smuggling" ?  
Does this mean that $10,000 in cash can no longer be taken out of the
country, or does it mean that it can no longer be taken out of the country
in a secretive manner ?

For as long as I have been traveling internationally, I have been required
to declare all cash amounts larger than $10,000.  Does this mean that
previously it was not a crime to not make such a declaration, and now it
is ?

-----
John Kozubik - john at kozubik.com - http://www.kozubik.com




From honig at sprynet.com  Wed Oct 24 19:50:34 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 19:50:34 -0700
Subject: FINALLY! we can buy Staria
In-Reply-To: <3BD7645B.D0EC8DFB@acmenet.net>
References: <001801c15ce3$70a8d950$ea3a080a@vaio>
  <20011025002338.680.qmail@sidereal.kz>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011024195034.00849e70@pop.sprynet.com>


>> > I don't understand why one would pay $1000 for a Starium device when
>> > comparable devices are available in the market place for less than half

According to some news I encountered, Microsoft's latest 'consumer'
OS fnord "XP" includes an audio/visual live 'chat' app.

Ignoring for the moment its closed nature, and the fact that you
can't be secure if your OS isn't, it would be a fantastic
project to add crypto to that app, *merely* on the basis of its
widespread Joe Sixpack deployment.  I have not calculated the
MIPS requirements, but since the chat app runs (supposedly acceptably)
at 56Kbaud one imagines there might be cycles to spare.  Or that
some users will endure the framerate drop if not.

dh




From piolenc at mozcom.com  Wed Oct 24 05:02:28 2001
From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 20:02:28 +0800
Subject: Retribution not enough
References: 
Message-ID: <3BD6ADD4.A6B10F0@mozcom.com>




Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, F. Marc de Piolenc wrote:
> 
> > Elementary - fair is whatever the parties in interest agree to. Period.
> 
> 'agree' is synonymous with 'free' in this case. All you're doing is
> playing word games and hand waving.
> 
> What does it mean to 'agree'? 

You are the only one here who seems to have a problem with the meaning
of that word.

Marc de Piolenc




From decoy at iki.fi  Wed Oct 24 10:14:31 2001
From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 20:14:31 +0300 (EEST)
Subject: USPS:  glowing by leaps and bounds
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011024082622.00840420@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: 


On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, David Honig wrote:

>Enough rads to sterilize?  Forget film.

What do you suppose happens to disks and other magnetic media at these
flux levels?

Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - mailto:decoy at iki.fi, tel:+358-50-5756111
student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front
openpgp: 050985C2/025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Oct 24 20:37:08 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 20:37:08 -0700
Subject: Spreading the dossier on Mitch Shoemaker, 16-year-old felon
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <9156C7D6-C8F9-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Wednesday, October 24, 2001, at 02:17 PM, measl at mfn.org wrote:

> On Tue, 23 Oct 2001, (na) mshoe wrote:
>
>> I first want you to know I understand what you do but
>
> Great!  Could you please explain it to *US* then?  I [seriously] doubt
> that most of us know what it is we do here!
>
>> I need to ask you to please remove the post from
>> http://www.inet-
>> one.com/cypherpunks/dir.2001.05.07-2001.05.13/msg00330.html
>
> Information wants to be Free, Mitch.  Kinda sucks to be you, doesn't it?

Not only cannot, and will not, Mitch Shoemaker's post not be removed, 
but search engines around the world find his moneymaking scheme every 
time someone types in "Mitch Shoemaker." Up pops up his post, plus his 
then-mailing address:




PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW :


REPORT#1  "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk E-mail on the
Internet"


ORDER REPORT#1 FROM::

Mitch Shoemaker

82 north iron st.

Bloomsburg pa,17815

>> I know I made a mistake and I am sorry for
>> it. I just want to put this mistake beind me and
>
> It's good you can learn from your mistakes: it shows you are a little
> higher on the food chain than most of the folks you will run into out
> there.  Kudos.
>
>> getting my family's address off the internet would be
>> a big help. Please consider removing the postings.
>> Thank You, Mitch

Knowing your family's home address is necessary so that future 
employers, colleges, etc., can reject you.

Also, some people may want to visit your house to get their money back. 
Or to get revenge.

Looks like you and your family may want to move, and maybe you need a 
name change.


--Tim May
"Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and
strangled with her panty hose,  is somehow morally superior to a woman 
explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound"
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From measl at mfn.org  Wed Oct 24 18:39:01 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 20:39:01 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [psychohistory] A Terrorist's Nursery (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Excellent.  Thank you for delivering the entire article, rather than a
link (I usually get to your likns BTW, but they do sit _way_ down on the
list).

 On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:37:54 -0500 (CDT)
> From: Jim Choate 
> Reply-To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> Subject: CDR: [psychohistory] A Terrorist's Nursery (fwd)
> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 10:18:52 +0300
> From: "[iso-8859-7] ������� �������" 
> Reply-To: psychohistory at yahoogroups.com
> To: psychohistory at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [psychohistory] A Terrorist's Nursery
> 
> Hi,
> The following article appeared in the INDEPENDET and, in IMO, presends well
> the Psychohistorical case of the 'making of terrorists'.
> I make some comments at the bottom of the message.
> 
> [
> Robert Fisk: As the refugees crowd the borders, we'll be blaming someone
> else
> 'It is palpably evident that they are not fleeing the Taliban but our bombs
> and missiles'
> 23 October 2001
> 
> Mullah Mohammed Omar's 10-year-old son is dead. He was, according to Afghan
> refugees fleeing Kandahar, taken to one of the city's broken hospitals by
> his father, the Taliban leader and "Emir of the Faithful", but the boy -
> apparently travelling in Omar's car when it was attacked by US aircraft -
> died of his wounds.
> 
> No regrets, of course. Back in 1985, when American aircraft bombed Libya,
> they also destroyed the life of Colonel Muammar Gaddafi's six-year-old
> adopted daughter. No regrets, of course. In 1992, when an Israeli pilot
> flying an American-made Apache helicopter fired an American-made missile
> into the car of Said Abbas Moussawi, head of the Hizbollah guerrilla army in
> Lebanon, the Israeli pilot also killed Moussawi's 10-year-old. No regrets,
> of course.
> 
> Whether these children deserved their deaths, be sure that their fathers -
> in our eyes - were to blame. Live by the sword, die by the sword - and that
> goes for the kids too. Back in 1991, The Independent revealed that American
> Gulf War military targets included "secure" bunkers in which members of
> Saddam Hussein's family - or the families of his henchmen - were believed to
> be hiding. That's how the Americans managed to slaughter well over 300
> people in an air raid shelter at Amariya in Baghdad. No Saddam kids, just
> civilians. Too bad. I wonder - now that President George Bush has given
> permission to the CIA to murder Osama bin Laden - if the same policy applies
> today?
> 
> And so the casualties begin to mount. From Kandahar come ever more frightful
> stories of civilians buried under ruins, of children torn to pieces by
> American bombs. The Taliban - and here the Americans must breathe a
> collective sigh of relief - refuse to allow Western journalists to enter the
> country to verify these reports. So when a few television crews were able to
> find 18 fresh graves in the devastated village of Khorum outside Jalalabad
> just over a week ago, the US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld could
> ridicule the deaths as "ridiculous". But not, I suspect, for much longer.
> 
> For if each of our wars for infinite justice and eternal freedom have a
> familiar trade mark - the military claptrap about air superiority,
> suppression of "command and control centres", radar capabilities - each has
> an awkward, highly exclusive little twist to it. In 1999, Nato claimed it
> was waging war to put Kosovo Albanian refugees back in their homes - even
> though most of the refugees were still in their homes when the war began.
> Our bombing of Serbia led directly to their dispossession. We bear a heavy
> burden of responsibility for their suffering - since the Serbs had told us
> what they would do if Nato opened hostilities - although the ultimate blame
> for their "ethnic cleansing'' clearly belonged to Slobodan Milosevic.
> 
> But Nato's escape clause won't work this time round. For as the Afghan
> refugees turn up in their thousands at the border, it is palpably evident
> that they are fleeing not the Taliban but our bombs and missiles. The
> Taliban is not ethnically cleansing its own Pashtun population. The refugees
> speak vividly of their fear and terror as our bombs fall on their cities.
> These people are terrified of our "war on terror'', victims as innocent as
> those who were slaughtered in the World Trade Centre on 11 September. So
> where do we stop?
> 
> It's an important question because, once the winter storms breeze down the
> mountain gorges of Afghanistan, a tragedy is likely to commence, one which
> no spin doctor or propaganda expert will be able to divert. We'll say that
> the thousands about to die or who are dying of starvation and cold are
> victims of the Taliban's intransigence or the Taliban's support for
> "terrorism" or the Taliban's propensity to steal humanitarian supplies.
> 
> I have to admit - having been weaned on Israel's promiscuous use of the word
> "terror" every time a Palestinian throws a stone at his occupiers - that I
> find the very word "terrorism" increasingly mendacious as well as racist. Of
> course - despite the slavish use of the phrase "war on terrorism" on the BBC
> and CNN - it is nothing of the kind. We are not planning to attack Tamil
> Tiger suicide bombers or Eta killers or Real IRA murderers or Kurdish KDP
> guerrillas. Indeed, the US has spent a lot of time supporting terrorists in
> Latin America - the Contras spring to mind - not to mention the rabble we
> are now bombing in Afghanistan. This is, as I've said before, a war on
> America's enemies. Increasingly, as the date of 11 September acquires iconic
> status, we are retaliating for the crimes against humanity in New York and
> Washington. But we're not setting up any tribunals to try those responsible.
> 
> The figure of 6,000 remains as awesome as it did in the days that followed.
> But what happens when the deaths for which we are responsible begin to
> approach the same figure? Refugees have been telling me on the Pakistan
> border that the death toll from our bombings in Afghanistan is in the
> dozens, perhaps the hundreds. Once the UN agencies give us details of the
> starving and the destitute who are dying in their flight from our bombs, it
> won't take long to reach 6,000. Will that be enough? Will 12,000 dead
> Afghans appease us, albeit that they have nothing to do with the Taliban or
> Osama bin Laden? Or 24,000? If we think we know what our aims are in this
> fraudulent "war against terror", have we any idea of proportion?
> 
> Sure, we'll blame the Taliban for future tragedies. Just as we've been
> blaming them for drug exports from Afghanistan. Tony Blair was at the
> forefront of the Taliban-drug linkage. And all we have to do to believe this
> is to forget the UN Drug Control Programme's announcement last week that
> opium production in Afghanistan has fallen by 94 per cent, chiefly due to
> Mullah Omar's prohibition in Taliban-controlled areas. Most of Afghanistan's
> current opium production comes - you've guessed it - from our friends in the
> Northern Alliance.
> 
> This particular war is, as Mr Bush said, going to be "unlike any other" -
> but not in quite the way he thinks. It's not going to lead to justice. Or
> freedom. It's likely to culminate in deaths that will diminish in magnitude
> even the crime against humanity on 11 September. Do we have any plans for
> this? Can we turn the falsity of a "war against terror" into a war against
> famine and starvation and death, even at the cost of postponing our day of
> reckoning with Osama bin Laden?
> 
> ]
> 
> Historicaly reprisals of a 10-fold of a 100-fold magnitude never worked in
> the favore of those commiting them. Making a 'little' New York every day in
> Afganistan, or anyware for that matter, just guarantees the creation of more
> willing to die terrorists.
> Of course 'our' governments already know this, thus an issue arrises: What's
> in the long term agenda, if anything? The rhetiric and the 'official'
> reasons given, ie. hunting down terrorists, retaliation to the patrons of
> the Sept 11th events, punishing the guilty have only a short term value,
> even without the cosideration of 'collateral damage', and will ultimately
> lead to the creation of more willing to die terrorists. (Due to a mechanism
> I call the "remaining leaven" - No matter the terrorists' death toll even
> a - statisticaly expected - tiny bit of terrorist "yeast" will produce the
> nesecary "leaven" that will fuel their future moves.
> So, I speculate that there might be something more in it all...
> 
> Regards
> Christos Konstas
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
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> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------~-~>
> to unsubscribe from this group, send a blank message to mailto:psychohistory-unsubscribe at egroups.com
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------_->
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
> 

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From jamesd at echeque.com  Wed Oct 24 20:42:39 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 20:42:39 -0700
Subject: Retribution not enough
In-Reply-To: <3BD40150.4BF0BC75@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <3BD727BF.11795.6CAC0@localhost>


    --
> David Honig wrote:
>
> > No one forces a farmer to the city to look for an industrial job.

On 22 Oct 2001, at 12:21, Ken Brown wrote:
> In general, no. But it happens now and again.  Governments 
certainly did
> in (say) the old Soviet Union

I do not think so.

Lenin surrounded the cities to keep people and food from going in 
and out.   This was the first step in a program to reintroduce 
serfdom, binding the peasant to the land.

Lenin, and later Stalin, were waging war on the countryside to 
extort food without supplying goods.  This produced a flight from 
the countryside, that they immediately met with terror.

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     DNPY/HlstuOZEMVRUtY8Fzx8ICjFn2nqiYfet8LB
     4yqj5vJH5lSGh0fTn9MhNe7LOs+Lq9d6wLTmJ8/Ve




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Wed Oct 24 18:01:15 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 21:01:15 -0400
Subject: FINALLY! we can buy Staria
References: <001801c15ce3$70a8d950$ea3a080a@vaio>
  <20011025002338.680.qmail@sidereal.kz>
Message-ID: <3BD7645B.D0EC8DFB@acmenet.net>


"Dr. Evil" wrote:
> 
> > I don't understand why one would pay $1000 for a Starium device when
> > comparable devices are available in the market place for less than half
> 
> Do you have any references for those? ...
> 
> > of that. The design goal for the new Starium boxes was sub-$100 retail.
> > I doubt that design goal was met, but I would not pay a penny over $350
> > for one device. Which will still leave the seller with a nice profit.

Declan reported on 1999/08/12 that Starium planned to sell them "by
early 2000" for under US$100.
(http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,21236,00.html)

A Google search on "telephone encryption" yields:

http://www.tccsecure.com/csd4100.htm - no price
http://www.thespystore.com/telefax.htm  - $249
http://shop.store.yahoo.com/spytechagency/telscram.html - $260
http://www.tscm.com/stu.html - several models, over US$5000

And others in the over-US$1000 range.

Few details on the devices, though some of them mention an algorithm.
(Including one which claimed 128-bit triple-DES. I'm not sure what to
make of that.) There were several other statements on some pages which
may have indicated either security holes or cluelessness on the part of
the writer, but more likely indicate cluelessness on my part.


-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From njohnsn at IowaTelecom.net  Wed Oct 24 19:04:17 2001
From: njohnsn at IowaTelecom.net (Neil Johnson)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 21:04:17 -0500
Subject: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and 
  bounds)
References: 
Message-ID: <00a001c15cf9$5b074620$0100a8c0@mshome.net>


The Ames Strain of Anthrax wasn't "developed" in Ames, It was "discovered".
It was naturally occurring strain that was resistant to the anti-biotics
that were used to treat Anthrax at the time.

It is very commonly used in the study and research of bacteria, and up to a
few years ago  could be easily ordered from lab supply houses (as long as it
looked like an "offical" research organization, the company sent it).

It took a  white-supremicist scientist ordering it and then driving around
with it in the trunk of his car to convince the government more restrictions
to be put in place.




From reeza at hawaii.rr.com  Thu Oct 25 00:14:57 2001
From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 21:14:57 -1000
Subject: Cypherpunks idiot list
In-Reply-To: <4c7ce548197816ff8ed584cbdb5ae737@dizum.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011024210953.03030570@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com>


At 10:21 PM 10/23/01 +0200, Nomen Nescio wrote:
 >  Of course I know how to use a killfile! I killfiled all you idiots
 >long ago, but your names and trivial ideas keep getting quoted by
 >all the important people, AND I JUST CAN'T STAND IT ANYMORE!.

Then kill yourself and be done with it.  If the "idiots" get quoted
by the "important" people, some number of the quoted texts may be
of insignificant value, but if they all were, none of the "idiots"
would be quoted because all the "important" people would be filtering
the "idiots" also.  Gee, that isn't even pretzel logic.  Not very,
anyway.

Reese




From wolf at priori.net  Wed Oct 24 21:15:31 2001
From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 21:15:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: FINALLY! we can buy Staria
In-Reply-To: <20011024235428.B30386@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: 


On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Right. I have a pair of Starium betas. They work. I'd recommend them.
>
> But the problem is that the purchaseable product doesn't exist. I went
> down to Carmel a few months ago and checked out the company. I love
> the ideas and the tech, but I wouldn't expect to see a product in the
> very near future.

What's this then?

http://www.tactronix.com/s100.htm


-MW-




From reeza at hawaii.rr.com  Thu Oct 25 00:37:55 2001
From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 21:37:55 -1000
Subject: Conman, quantum entaglement and no cat
In-Reply-To: <002001c15ce5$43906fd0$ea3a080a@vaio>
References: 
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011024213638.0301b590@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com>


Who knows how many predictions he's made over the years, or the
black book he looks them up in after a drawing, so he knows where
(whether) to call the press conference.

At 04:40 PM 10/24/01 -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
 >It would have been more impressive had Copperfield revealed the
 >numbers he predicted an hour /before/ the drawing...
 >
 >--Lucky
 >
 >> -----Original Message-----
 >> From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com
 >> [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com] On Behalf Of Anonymous
 >> Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 4:01 PM
 >> To: cypherpunks at lne.com
 >> Subject: Conman, quantum entaglement and no cat
 >>
 >>
 >> http://www.thescotsman.co.uk/text_only.cfm?id=116404
 >>
 >>
 >> Magicians lottery list accurate
 >>
 >> THE American illusionist David Copperfield said yesterday he
 >> has been bombarded by requests for tips on the winning
 >> numbers in Germanys national lottery on Saturday night -
 >> numbers he said he predicted seven months ago.
 >>
 >> Copperfield wrote down his forecast on 17 February for the
 >> multi-million mark lottery drawing due on 13 October. The
 >> prediction was sealed by a notary and locked in a box that
 >> was kept under round-the-clock surveillance.
 >>
 >> An hour after the winning numbers were drawn, the box was
 >> opened on a live television broadcast and the numbers matched
 >> the winning draw: 2, 9, 10, 15, 25, 38 and 4.
 >>
 >> "It wasnt a trick," Copperfield told Bild am Sonntag
 >> newspaper after the performance on the popular Wanna Bet?
 >> show on ZDF television. "It was more an experiment and mental
 >> exercise. We only use about 10 per cent of our brain capacity."
 >>
 >> Copperfield said he is not tempted to play the lottery
 >> himself because he would not be able to "see" the numbers. "I
 >> used to try it out by giving friends the numbers, but then it
 >> would never work," he said. "If the numbers arent kept
 >> secret, it doesnt work."
 >>
 >> Copperfield said hundreds of people had written him since
 >> February begging him for tips on what numbers to pick.
 >> "Hundreds of emails, so many letters and requests from people
 >> in despair. "
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >> But can he do RSA keys ?
 >>
 >> If he can, that would mean that they are truly random.
 >>
 >> If he can't they are not.
 >>
 >> This test should become a part of Diehard.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Oct 24 19:38:01 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 21:38:01 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Doh!
Message-ID: 



Make "Green River Anthology" into "Spoon River Anthology", it'll make more
sense.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Oct 24 19:44:07 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 21:44:07 -0500
Subject: The coming "open monopoly" in software - Tech News - CNET.com
Message-ID: <3BD77C77.5F15D5E0@ssz.com>


http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1275-210-7632187-1.html?tag=bt_bh
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From FrogRemailer at lne.com  Wed Oct 24 14:53:24 2001
From: FrogRemailer at lne.com (Frog2)
Date: 24 Oct 2001 21:53:24 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_MATT_DRUDGE_//_DRUDGE_REPORT_2001=AE?=
Message-ID: 


[What's with the Subject line?
=?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_MATT_DRUDGE_//_DRUDGE_REPORT_2001=AE?=]

> Two hovering police choppers waited for people to come
> to the roof, rescue hoists ready, but none made it past the 
> locked doors -- a couple of the doorbangers cellphoned 
> home to scream bloody murder.

Not a plausible claim, to anyone who recalls the situation at the
top of the WTC on those days.  The incredible heat and smoke from
an entire jetliner full of fuel a hundred feet below would make
helicopter operations impossible.  Trying to land on the roof under
those circumstances would be suicide.  Helicopters circled, but they
could not approach.




From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Oct 24 19:53:35 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 21:53:35 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Why Plan-9?
In-Reply-To: <20011024160910.F2973@navel.introspect>
Message-ID: 



This entire view misses the(!) one most important component of Unix's (and
Linux's) success, they were first.

There was NO credible competition. The same thing can be said for Apache
and BIND and many other apps. It isn't that they were the best, they were
simply the first - and get to reap market inertia as a result.

However, and it's a doozy, this won't last. As the Open Source market
expands and takes over pretty much completely you'll see this dominance
begin to decrease.

Why? 

Because of the component nature of the software.

On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote:

[Long standard history of Unix deleted]


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Wed Oct 24 19:06:11 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 22:06:11 -0400
Subject: FINALLY! we can buy Staria
References: <001801c15ce3$70a8d950$ea3a080a@vaio>
  <20011025002338.680.qmail@sidereal.kz> <3BD7645B.D0EC8DFB@acmenet.net>
  <20011025013134.17929.qmail@sidereal.kz>
Message-ID: <3BD77393.F1F031C@acmenet.net>


"Dr. Evil" wrote:
> So, I checked all the URLs you gave me, and none of them, except the
> STU, use real encryption, and the STUs are either not available, or
> they are backdoored.
> 
> Starium is competing with STUs.
...
> > And others in the over-US$1000 range.
> 
> Right, so Starium is price-competitive, easier to use, and possibly
> more secure.  Oh, and they will sell to anyone who has money, unlike
> the STU sellers, I assume.
> 
> I think their initial market are customers such as law enforcement,
> criminal defense lawyers, and executives who might compare this with a
> STU, and for whom $1000 vs $100 is no big deal. ...

We probably need to define the product category we're discussing. I was
listing devices which prevent casual interception, and which Joe Average
might conceivably buy. The Starium is obviously more robust than that,
and consequently more expensive.

You asked in a previous message about the market size. For casual stuff,
tens or hundreds of thousands in the US, if the device is in the $100
range. For the serious stuff, I think you nailed the market pretty well.
One or two orders of magnitude less, if the device is in the $1000
range. Those numbers both assume no government interference, of course.


-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Oct 24 20:27:03 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 22:27:03 -0500
Subject: Key Hypotheses (incl. Schelling Points)
Message-ID: <3BD78687.8067ED8A@ssz.com>


http://www.tfriend.com/hypothesis.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From attila at hun.org  Wed Oct 24 15:44:15 2001
From: attila at hun.org (attila!)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 22:44:15 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [RANT] Unfettered immigration is rapidly shifting the ethnic
    and political balance of the United States
In-Reply-To: <20011024154655.K42307-100000@giganda.komkon.org>
Message-ID: <20011024224415.3E5AF3465A@hun.org>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 1090 bytes
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URL: 

From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Wed Oct 24 22:47:28 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 22:47:28 -0700
Subject: Why Plan-9?
In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com on Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 09:53:35PM -0500
References: <20011024160910.F2973@navel.introspect> 
Message-ID: <20011024224728.A13558@navel.introspect>

on Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 09:53:35PM -0500, Jim Choate (ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com) wrote:
> This entire view misses the(!) one most important component of Unix's (and
> Linux's) success, they were first.

Not hardly.

I wasn't keeping notes when K&R were designing their gaming platform,
but history seems to recall OS/360, Multics, TICO, ITS, VMS.  A bit of
quick Googling suggests the PDP-7 had its own native operating system
(the PDP-11 certainly did), certainly more than what a couple of guys
hanging around a broom closet could hammer out in a few days.

Throughout the 1970s and 80s, Ken Olsen was selling VAXs running VMS and
complaining bitterly about snake oil (I guess there's a bunch of snakes
out there).  However, to quote someone's response to Tim May in this
list recently, I'm just one of the dilettants posting here out of
ignorance for some free research on the part of the rest of you.
Someone who was around at the time is going to have a better answer than
me. 



When Linus started Linux, he was bootstrapping with Minix, and trying to
get around its limitations.  For PC Unix, there was alread Xenix and one
or more of the very forgettably named SCO products (not Xenix).  The
Jolitzesi were wresting BSD from Berkeley.  FSF had been working on the
HURD since 1983 (originally as TRIX), in fits and starts.  By the time
Larry McVoy wrote "The Sourceware Operating System Proposal" in 1993, it
still wasn't clear whether or not FreeBSD or Linux was the cart to hitch
the horse to.

http://www.redhat.com/knowledgebase/otherwhitepapers/whitepaper_freeunix.html

The ultimate success of Linux doesn't have a single factor -- it meets
most of the marks set in the exerpt I posted from K&P, I'd argue that
licensing played a role, as did the fact it wasn't encumbered by the
AT&T/UCB lawsuits, and most people give Linus himself strong credits for
his project management skills and personality.  Topics covered
extensively elsewhere.

Peace.

-- 
Karsten M. Self        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?             Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html
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From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Wed Oct 24 23:06:41 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 23:06:41 -0700
Subject: House chairman doesn't want "parochial" issues to stop
  wiretap bill
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20011025004358.02083680@mail.well.com>; from
  declan@well.com on Thu, Oct 25, 2001 at 12:44:48AM -0400
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20011025004358.02083680@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <20011024230641.B13558@navel.introspect>


on Thu, Oct 25, 2001 at 12:44:48AM -0400, Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com)
wrote:
> Parochial issues like privacy, maybe?
>
> -Declan
>
> ---
>
> News Advisory
> For immediate
> release                                                           Contact:
> Jeff Lungren
> October 24,
> 2001
> 202-225-2492
> House Passes Anti-terrorism Legislation
> Sensenbenner Urges Senate Action Today
> WASHINGTON, D.C. - The House today passed anti-terrorism legislation by a
> 357-66 margin.  H.R. 3162, introduced by House Judiciary Committee Chairman
> F. James Sensenbrenner, Jr. (R-Wis.), is expected to be considered by the
> Senate today or tomorrow and then sent to President Bush for his signature.
> "Today, the House came together in a bipartisan manner to pass landmark
> anti-terrorism legislation which provides federal law enforcement and
> intelligence agencies the tools they need to combat the scourges of
> international and domestic terrorism.  Our country remains vulnerable to
> terrorism and our President needs this bill to fight the clear and present
> danger posed by Al Queda and other terrorist organizations," said Chairman
> Sensenbrenner.
> "I have heard that certain Senators have placed holds on this
> anti-terrorism bill to press their own parochial issues.  This is the time
> to dispense with business as usual.  It is time for leadership; I urge the
> Senate to pass this legislation today."

So, who're the Senate holdouts?  90+ votes means a filibuster's
impossible under cloture rules, no?

--
Karsten M. Self        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?             Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]




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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Oct 24 21:19:23 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 23:19:23 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Market Competition for Security Measures
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



> On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, somebody wrote:
> 
> >Federalizing or socializing the costs of security is like federalizing
> >or socializing flood insurance: it takes the efficiencies of the market
> >away and creates distortions.

It has two advantages over a strict free market model however. The fist
is the market is larger with respect to ability to cover damages because
it spreads the cost out over a larger group. This has two effects. First
it lowers the average cost per user and second during critical
emergencies you can raise larger sums of capital by increasing the
average payout. Especially damages that accrue all at once outside of
'normal' statistical expectations. A sequence of man made and natural
disasters would be one example. The flip side is to realize that this
works for transient spikes only. Otherwise it's simply robbing Peter to
pay Paul (ie Communism).

The second aspect is that the market players are likely to be more stable
from a total lifetime perspective. In some cases this accrues from the
stability of the government, in others this economic breadth stabalizes
the government.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





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From tcmay at got.net  Wed Oct 24 23:36:21 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 23:36:21 -0700
Subject: House chairman doesn't want "parochial" issues to stop
  wiretap bill
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20011025004358.02083680@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <9A92A5D8-C912-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Wednesday, October 24, 2001, at 09:44 PM, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Parochial issues like privacy, maybe?
>

"Frankly, even before 9/11 I thought privacy was, like, rilly, rilly 
scary and all! It scares me to think about what people are doing under 
the cloak of "privacy." So, like, I'm happy that our government is 
quickly passing laws taking back all those "privacy" things in that 
Constitution thing. Like, there are no civil liberties advocates in 
foxholes. -- Cathy Rilly Rilly Young, "Irrational Magazine"


--Tim May, Corralitos, California
Quote of the Month: "It is said that there are no atheists in foxholes; 
perhaps there are no true libertarians in times of terrorist attacks." 
--Cathy Young, "Reason Magazine," both enemies of liberty.




From verba at rol.it  Wed Oct 24 14:43:04 2001
From: verba at rol.it (verba at rol.it)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 23:43:04 +0200
Subject: Verba Volant del 25-10-01
Message-ID: <1003966985@web2bk.logos.it>


Verba Volant del 25-10-01,
Every day a new quotation translated into many languages. 

Logos Translations - www.logostranslations.com 
_________________

Quotation of the day:
Author - Albert Einstein
http://www.logos.it/bio/albert_einstein.html

English - the most precious things in life are not those one gets for money
Italian - le cose pi� preziose della vita non sono quelle che ci procuriamo con il denaro
Spanish - las cosas m�s preciadas de la vida no son las que se consiguen a cambio de dinero
French - les choses les plus pr�cieuses dans la vie ne s'ach�tent pas avec de l'argent
Portuguese - as coisas mais preciosas da vida n�o s�o aquelas que obtemos com o dinheiro
Brazilian Portuguese - as coisas mais preciosas da vida, n�o s�o aquelas conseguimos com dinheiro
German - die kostbarsten Dinge im Leben kann man nicht mit Geld bezahlen
Hungarian - az �letben a leg�rt�kesebb dolgok nem azok, amelyek p�nz�rt kaphat�k
Finnish - el�m�n arvokkaimpia asioita ei voi hankkia rahalla
Catalan - les coses m�s precioses de la vida, no s�n aquellas que obtenim amb diners
Croatian - najvrijednije stvari u �ivotu nisu one koje nam omogucuje novac
Czech - nejvz�cnej�� veci v �ivote se nedostanou za pen�ze
Dutch - de meest kostbare dingen in het leven koop je niet met geld
Emiliano-Romagnolo - al robi pi� impurtenti, t'la voida, la n'� quela ca ciapem se quatroin
Latin - vitae pretiosissimae res non sunt quae nobis pecunia paramus
Polish - najcenniejsze rzeczy w zyciu to nie te kt�re kupuje sie za pieniadze
Romanian - lucrurile cele mai pretioase din viata nu sunt acelea procurate cu bani
Slovak - najvz�cnej�ie veci v �ivote nie s� za peniaze
Venetian - le robe pi� preziose de la vita no le xe quele che se procuremo coi schei
Sicilian - 'i cosi cchi� pprizziusi da' vita, non sunnu chiddi ca 'nni putemu pruvvidiri cche' sordi
Flemish - de meest kostbare dingen in het leven koop je niet met geld
Ferrarese - i pi� grand tesor dla vida n'� brisa quei ca's t�l coi franc
Bolognese - i qu� pi� prezi�s dla v�tta in �n br�sa qu� ch�a utgn�n coi baj�c 

_________________

All languages, please click on this link
http://www.rol.it/owa-k/press.frasiproc.carica?code=429
_________________

To unsubscribe from Verba Volant, please follow this link:
http://www.rol.it/owa-k/press.rol_ml.verbavolant 

and write in the empty field next to unsubscribe the email address that you find after "TO:" in the Verba Volant emails 
alternatively write to the following address: unsubscribe_volant at rol.it always copying the EMAIL address written after "TO:"




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Oct 24 23:46:36 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 23:46:36 -0700
Subject: Time to Flash Cook the Frog
In-Reply-To: <3BD793AA.D2E18C78@acmenet.net>
Message-ID: <092DB587-C914-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Wednesday, October 24, 2001, at 09:23 PM, Steve Furlong wrote:

> Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>> When you have 99-1 votes in the Senate
>> (http://www.politechbot.com/p-02651.html), can anyone seriously say
>> that either the Democrats or Republicans can be trusted to preserve
>> our privacy and follow the demands of the Constitution?
>
> No. Nor have the mass of national politicians been trustworthy since FDR
> or before.
>
> It might be good that Congress is likely to pass a Draconian
> anti-terrorism law. The nibbling away at civil rights has gone generally
> without effective opposition. About the only hope for the retention of
> our rights is a massive chunk bitten off at once, while there are still
> enough armed Americans to put politicians in fear of their lives. I'm
> not actually hoping for an armed uprising, but the fear of one is
> clearly the only thing which will bring Congress, the federal courts,
> and the President to heel.

Indeed. The frog has been adjusting to the heating water rather too 
well. It's time to flash cook the frog.

I'm watching a "Nightline" report on the growing anger over how the 
ubermensch elite in Congress were fawned over and given Cipro while the 
untermensch lumpenproletariat postal workers were told "Don't worry, be 
happy!"

Now, with no Congressvarmints sick, but with two mail sorters having 
gone postal to the max, with dozens of others sick or diagnosed with 
inhalation anthrax, the anger is building.

--Tim May
"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: What would things 
have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to 
make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive?" 
--Alexander Solzhenitzyn, Gulag Archipelago




From declan at well.com  Wed Oct 24 20:51:52 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 23:51:52 -0400
Subject: FINALLY! we can buy Staria
In-Reply-To: <20011023030629.5849.qmail@sidereal.kz>; from
  drevil@sidereal.kz on Tue, Oct 23, 2001 at 03:06:29AM -0000
References: <20011023030629.5849.qmail@sidereal.kz>
Message-ID: <20011024235152.A30386@cluebot.com>


I happened to hear from Lee Caplin of Starium today. They've
apparently (I'm looking at Lee's email message while typing this, but
I don't wish to speak for them) abandoned plans to sell the
bump-in-a-wire device. Now they're thinking of marketing a small
RJ11'd cryptophone an executive would carry around. Also, Lee says
Starium has filed for patents on a desk phone, answering machine and
conference phone.

-Declan



On Tue, Oct 23, 2001 at 03:06:29AM -0000, Dr. Evil wrote:
> (is that the correct plural of Starium?)
> 
> http://www.tactronix.com/s100.htm
> 
> NOW TAKING PRE-ORDERS FOR DELIVERY IN DECEMBER 2001/JANUARY 2002
> 
> Very Limited Quantity Available
> 
> A 50% Deposit Will Reserve Your Units Today!!
> 
> 1-10 Units  $995 USD Each
> 
> 11-20 Units $936 USD Each
> 
> 21-50 Units $884 USD Each
> 
> 51 Units+ Call For Price
> 
> What do people here think of this?  My initial thoughts are:
> 
> Pros:
> 
> 1. Voice encryption is great.  It's the Last Great Encryption Taboo
>    (the other is file encryption, but that's not nearly as taboo as
>    voice).  I'm glad to see something on the market which addresses
>    this.  Obviously, all traffic, including saying hi to grandma,
>    should be encrypted.
> 
> 2. The unit looks very easy to use.  I could travel anywhere in the
>    world with it (well, anywhere that it's legal) and plug it in and
>    press one button and it works.  That's great.
> 
> Cons:
> 
> 1. I would like to see an open source reference software
>    implementation, or some way to verify that there are no "naughty
>    bits" in this thing.  I know, open source isn't much of a business
>    model, but with encryption products, it seems almost essential.
> 
> 2. It's expensive.  It costs more than a PC.  However, $2k for two
>    units is small compared to the value of data it could be securing,
>    so for many users, the price will be fine.
> 
> 3. A minor nitpick: It uses 3DES.  What's wrong with AES?
> 
> I think I would like to buy some of them, but I can't decide if I want
> to be an early adopter, or wait for cheaper and better versions to
> come out.




From declan at well.com  Wed Oct 24 20:54:28 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 23:54:28 -0400
Subject: FINALLY! we can buy Staria
In-Reply-To: <20011025013134.17929.qmail@sidereal.kz>; from
  drevil@sidereal.kz on Thu, Oct 25, 2001 at 01:31:34AM -0000
References: <001801c15ce3$70a8d950$ea3a080a@vaio>
  <20011025002338.680.qmail@sidereal.kz> <3BD7645B.D0EC8DFB@acmenet.net>
  <20011025013134.17929.qmail@sidereal.kz>
Message-ID: <20011024235428.B30386@cluebot.com>


On Thu, Oct 25, 2001 at 01:31:34AM -0000, Dr. Evil wrote:
> Right, so Starium is price-competitive, easier to use, and possibly
> more secure.  Oh, and they will sell to anyone who has money, unlike
> the STU sellers, I assume.

Right. I have a pair of Starium betas. They work. I'd recommend them.

But the problem is that the purchaseable product doesn't exist. I went
down to Carmel a few months ago and checked out the company. I love
the ideas and the tech, but I wouldn't expect to see a product in the
very near future.

-Declan




From decoy at iki.fi  Wed Oct 24 14:00:39 2001
From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 00:00:39 +0300 (EEST)
Subject: Market Competition for Security Measures
In-Reply-To: <1047397B-C8A0-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: 


On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Tim May wrote:

>Federalizing or socializing the costs of security is like federalizing
>or socializing flood insurance: it takes the efficiencies of the market
>away and creates distortions.

A bare one objection to comprehensive market based security: a market
needs private property, and other civil rights, in order to function
efficiently, as predicted. Protection is what guarantees those rights. If
you place protection on the market, you no longer have a guarantee that
the market itself can function as originally intended.

Cf. piracy (in its original form) -- an evolutionary system like pure
market economy (anarcho-capitalism) will likely settle in a state with
parasitic activity present. It is not clear that this stable state (you
would call it a Schelling point) would not include a major proportion of
rights violating commerce (like mafia protection rackets and the like).
Hence it is not clear that it indeed guarantees maximum economic
efficiency; it might be just a local maximum.

The above, of course, has very little to do with Tim's analysis of private
security of the airline industry. But it does have a lot of relevance to
placing *all* of the normal police activity in the private sector. If I'm
not wrong, Tim's essay is part of precisely such an agenda.

Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - mailto:decoy at iki.fi, tel:+358-50-5756111
student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front
openpgp: 050985C2/025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2




From declan at well.com  Wed Oct 24 21:12:13 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 00:12:13 -0400
Subject: First, brand all the children
In-Reply-To: <200110242305.f9ON54A81248@mailserver1c.hushmail.com>; from
  keyser-soze@hushmail.com on Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 04:05:04PM -0700
References: <200110242305.f9ON54A81248@mailserver1c.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: <20011025001213.C30386@cluebot.com>


K-S has the right of it. The only drama left before the Senate votes
on the "anti-terrorism" wiretap bill Thursday is whether the final vote
on this ever-growing, 400KB bill will be 99-1 (Feingold) or 100-1. 

Two weeks ago, the House approved (http://www.politechbot.com/p-02654.html)
the bill by a 339 by 79 vote with a five-year expiration date.

Then the Senate decided to get persnickety and demanded that all these
anti-financial privacy "money laundering" sections must be added, and
insisted that the expiration date be shortened, and so on.

The doughty defenders of liberty in the House reponded by approving the
rewritten, expanded bill today by -- a 357 to 66 vote.
(http://clerkweb.house.gov/cgi-bin/vote.exe?year=2001&rollnumber=398)

So making the bill more Draconian, onerous, and nasty convinced
precisely 13 *more* 'critters to vote for the revised version. Right.

With the exception of folks like Ron Paul (who, I'm pleased to say,
voted nay), there seems to be little hope left for our legislative
system.  When you have 99-1 votes in the Senate
(http://www.politechbot.com/p-02651.html), can anyone seriously say
that either the Democrats or Republicans can be trusted to preserve
our privacy and follow the demands of the Constitution?

-Declan


On Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 04:05:04PM -0700, keyser-soze at hushmail.com wrote:
> Brock,
> 
> You the problem in the cross hairs.  But what's to be done when your elected representative and fellow citizens are either too scared or don't care to discuss a plain reading of the constitution?  These ugly measures may cause some of us to assume that maybe the American revolution isn't over and that the ghost of George III and his Tories now reside in D.C.  Thank God so many of us own firearms and are therefore citizens and not merely subjects.
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------
> http://www.msnbc.com/news/646793.asp
> 
> 
> First, brand all the children
> 
> 
> Cyber-liberties swept away by tidal wave of security concerns
> 
> 
> OPINION
> By Brock N. Meeks
> MSNBC
> 
> 
> WASHINGTON, Oct. 24 - Anthrax, Afghanistan, al-Qaida, Ashcroft and
> anti-terrorism legislation. We aren't even through the first letter of the
> geopolitical alphabet before jumping all the way to "S" as in "screwed" as
> in what's happening to civil liberties in the online world.




From declan at well.com  Wed Oct 24 21:17:31 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 00:17:31 -0400
Subject: Money transmitting businesses (Was: "A champion of liberty
  speaks about privacy, cash smuggling")
In-Reply-To: ;
  from john@kozubik.com on Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 07:48:03PM -0700
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20011024191059.02020b30@mail.well.com>
  
Message-ID: <20011025001731.D30386@cluebot.com>


The bill has been in flux, and nobody has had time to read it in detail.
You can scroll through it yerself:
http://www.politechbot.com/docs/usa.act.final.102401.html

      ``(b) Domestic Coin and Currency Transactions Involving
     Nonfinancial Trades or Businesses.--No person shall, for the
     purpose of evading the report requirements of section 5333 or
     any regulation prescribed under such section--
       ``(1) cause or attempt to cause a nonfinancial trade or
     business to fail to file a report required under section 5333
     or any regulation prescribed under such section; [...]
  ``(3) structure or assist in structuring, or attempt to
     structure or assist in structuring, any transaction with 1 or
     more nonfinancial trades or businesses.'. [...]
     (1) In general.--Whoever, with the intent to evade a
     currency reporting requirement under section 5316, knowingly
     conceals more than $10,000 in currency or other monetary
     instruments on the person of such individual or in any
     conveyance, article of luggage, merchandise, or other
     con     transport or transfer such currency or monetary instruments
     from a place within the United States to a place outside of
     the United States, or from a place outside the United States
     to a place within the United States, shall be guilty of a
     currency smuggling offense and subject to punishment pursuant
     to subsection (b).

See also:

     ``(a) Whoever knowingly conducts, controls, manages,
     supervises, directs, or owns all or part of an unlicensed
     money transmitting business, shall be fined in accordance
     with this title or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.
       ``(b) As used in this section--
       ``(1) the term `unlicensed money transmitting business'
     means a money transmitting business which affects interstate
     or foreign commerce in any manner or degree and--
       ``(A) is operated without an appropriate money transmitting
     license in a State where such operation is punishable as a
     misdemeanor or a felony under State law, whether or not the
     defendant knew that the operation was required to be licensed
     or that the operation was so punishable;

I wonder how this would affect various alternative currency systems:

    ``(2) the term `money transmitting' includes transferring
     funds on behalf of the public by any and all means including
     but not limited to transfers within this country or to
     locations abroad by wire, check, draft, facsimile, or
     courier; and

-Declan


On Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 07:48:03PM -0700, John Kozubik wrote:
> >    The bill is not perfect. I am sorry that, for example, we excluded
> > making it a crime to smuggle over $10,000 interstate. We included it
> > for overseas, but it was not included for interstate. Nevertheless,
> > this is an excellent bill.
> 
> Can someone clarify the definition, in this context, of "smuggling" ?  
> Does this mean that $10,000 in cash can no longer be taken out of the
> country, or does it mean that it can no longer be taken out of the country
> in a secretive manner ?
> 
> For as long as I have been traveling internationally, I have been required
> to declare all cash amounts larger than $10,000.  Does this mean that
> previously it was not a crime to not make such a declaration, and now it
> is ?
> 
> -----
> John Kozubik - john at kozubik.com - http://www.kozubik.com




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Wed Oct 24 21:23:06 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 00:23:06 -0400
Subject: First, brand all the children
References: <200110242305.f9ON54A81248@mailserver1c.hushmail.com>
  <20011025001213.C30386@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <3BD793AA.D2E18C78@acmenet.net>


Declan McCullagh wrote:

> When you have 99-1 votes in the Senate
> (http://www.politechbot.com/p-02651.html), can anyone seriously say
> that either the Democrats or Republicans can be trusted to preserve
> our privacy and follow the demands of the Constitution?

No. Nor have the mass of national politicians been trustworthy since FDR
or before.

It might be good that Congress is likely to pass a Draconian
anti-terrorism law. The nibbling away at civil rights has gone generally
without effective opposition. About the only hope for the retention of
our rights is a massive chunk bitten off at once, while there are still
enough armed Americans to put politicians in fear of their lives. I'm
not actually hoping for an armed uprising, but the fear of one is
clearly the only thing which will bring Congress, the federal courts,
and the President to heel.

-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From drevil at sidereal.kz  Wed Oct 24 17:23:38 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil)
Date: 25 Oct 2001 00:23:38 -0000
Subject: FINALLY! we can buy Staria
In-Reply-To: <001801c15ce3$70a8d950$ea3a080a@vaio>
  (shamrock@cypherpunks.to)
References: <001801c15ce3$70a8d950$ea3a080a@vaio>
Message-ID: <20011025002338.680.qmail@sidereal.kz>


> I don't understand why one would pay $1000 for a Starium device when
> comparable devices are available in the market place for less than half

Do you have any references for those?  I'm in the market for a voice
encryptor system.  Are these devices really comparable in terms of
ease of use?

> of that. The design goal for the new Starium boxes was sub-$100 retail.
> I doubt that design goal was met, but I would not pay a penny over $350
> for one device. Which will still leave the seller with a nice profit.

Yeah, I remember they were supposed to be much cheaper.  Perhaps they
will drop the price later.  I'm sure they didn't pick this number
casually.  If this is something that a lawyer would use to communicate
with a client in criminal defense cases, or for government use, for
instances, then $2k/pair might be a very reasonable price.  It does
price it out of the consumer market, but how big is the consumer
market for these things, even if they are $100 each?




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Thu Oct 25 00:35:19 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 00:35:19 -0700
Subject: FINALLY! we can buy Staria
In-Reply-To: <20011025021458.31897.qmail@sidereal.kz>
References: <3BD77393.F1F031C@acmenet.net>
  <001801c15ce3$70a8d950$ea3a080a@vaio>
  <20011025002338.680.qmail@sidereal.kz> <3BD7645B.D0EC8DFB@acmenet.net>
  <20011025013134.17929.qmail@sidereal.kz>
  <3BD77393.F1F031C@acmenet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011025001742.03aa6ec0@idiom.com>


At 02:14 AM 10/25/2001 +0000, Dr. Evil wrote:
>Right, exactly.  When Starium was first announced, people were excited
>because it sounded like we were going to get industrial-strength stuff
>at consumer prices.  That isn't reality, and now they are going to
>sell industrial-strength stuff at industrial prices.  There's no way a
>complicated all-digital public key crypto device can compete on price
>with made-in-China analog scramblers, which are basically toys.

Analog shouldn't really be cheaper than digital these days.
A digital cellphone with roughly the same parts costs ~$100,
and includes radio parts as well.
The big costs of a device like this are
- amortizing development costs
- packaging for smallness and cuteness
- designing for low power use.
A sound card costs $5, a modem costs $10, a PC104 card is $$25-50;
you should be able to integrate them on a board for a similar cost,
as long as you don't mind a somewhat slow public-key step
(or paying to license elliptic-curve algorithms),
and if you don't mind the power and space from general-purpose designs,
i.e. a simple, ugly, AC-powered board like the
never-finished "Harmless Little Project".
Real designs would eliminate most of the inter-card glue,
and cut down on unused interfaces, and eventually put stuff in ASICs.
But you have to run enough volume to amortize the development costs.

If you want to do off-the-shelf today, probably the easiest choice
is to start with a Compaq iPaq - they're about $500, and burn batteries
too fast to be really ideal, but they're fast enough (unlike Palm)
and include audio hardware (don't know if it's full-duplex),
and you can hang modems on them.

Some of the scrambler descriptions sounded like they were digital,
not analog, but still had wimpy homemade crypto.
My memories of the device that used Bell Labs crypto algorithms
are that it was *probably* the "commercial-sale-approved weak crypto"
version of the STU-III that we did back in the late 80s,
and if so it's weaker than DES, but I haven't actually seen it.
(We did multiple versions on that platform - the STU-III used
NSA-supplied crypto chips, the Federal-Unclassified-Use version
used single-DES, and I don't remember if the commercial one was
exportable or not.)




From declan at well.com  Wed Oct 24 21:44:19 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 00:44:19 -0400
Subject: FINALLY! we can buy Staria
In-Reply-To: ; from wolf@priori.net on Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 09:15:31PM -0700
References: <20011024235428.B30386@cluebot.com>
  
Message-ID: <20011025004419.E30386@cluebot.com>


Did you read the page carefully? See:

NOW TAKING PRE-ORDERS FOR DELIVERY IN DECEMBER 2001/JANUARY 2002
Very Limited Quantity Available

That said, I'm surprised to see the units advertised. As I said in
another message, Starium's chairman (I think that's his current title)
indicated to me today they've switched directions.

-Declan


On Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 09:15:31PM -0700, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote:
> On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> > Right. I have a pair of Starium betas. They work. I'd recommend them.
> >
> > But the problem is that the purchaseable product doesn't exist. I went
> > down to Carmel a few months ago and checked out the company. I love
> > the ideas and the tech, but I wouldn't expect to see a product in the
> > very near future.
> 
> What's this then?
> 
> http://www.tactronix.com/s100.htm
> 
> 
> -MW-




From declan at well.com  Wed Oct 24 21:44:48 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 00:44:48 -0400
Subject: House chairman doesn't want "parochial" issues to stop wiretap
  bill
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20011025004358.02083680@mail.well.com>


Parochial issues like privacy, maybe?

-Declan

---

News Advisory
For immediate 
release                                                           Contact: 
Jeff Lungren
October 24, 
2001 
202-225-2492
House Passes Anti-terrorism Legislation
Sensenbenner Urges Senate Action Today
WASHINGTON, D.C. - The House today passed anti-terrorism legislation by a 
357-66 margin.  H.R. 3162, introduced by House Judiciary Committee Chairman 
F. James Sensenbrenner, Jr. (R-Wis.), is expected to be considered by the 
Senate today or tomorrow and then sent to President Bush for his signature.
"Today, the House came together in a bipartisan manner to pass landmark 
anti-terrorism legislation which provides federal law enforcement and 
intelligence agencies the tools they need to combat the scourges of 
international and domestic terrorism.  Our country remains vulnerable to 
terrorism and our President needs this bill to fight the clear and present 
danger posed by Al Queda and other terrorist organizations," said Chairman 
Sensenbrenner.
"I have heard that certain Senators have placed holds on this 
anti-terrorism bill to press their own parochial issues.  This is the time 
to dispense with business as usual.  It is time for leadership; I urge the 
Senate to pass this legislation today."




From declan at well.com  Wed Oct 24 21:54:04 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 00:54:04 -0400
Subject: Clarence Parker enjoyed the perks of his prison guard job
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20011025005255.020775b0@mail.well.com>


FORMER INS GUARD AT FEDERAL DETENTION FACILITY
PLEADS GUILTY TO SEXUAL ACT WITH FEMALE DETAINEE MIAMI, FL. --
The Public Integrity Section of the Justice Department announced today that 
Clarence Parker, a former guard at the Krome Service Processing Center 
(Krome) in Miami, Florida, pled guilty today to knowingly engaging in, and 
attempting to engage in a sexual act with a female detainee at Krome in 
October 2000.  "As soon as we learned of the possible actions of this 
individual, we immediately removed him from Krome," said INS Acting 
District Director John M. Bulger. "The investigation went forward with our 
full support.  Our commitment to removing and prosecuting anyone who 
commits these types of acts is stronger than ever." For the past three 
years, Parker was a contract employee with the Immigration and 
Naturalization Service at Krome.  Parker was assigned to the attorney 
visiting area where he monitored the detainees who were waiting to visit 
with their attorneys.  As a result of the investigation, Parker was 
suspended in June 2001. Parker's plea was accepted by the Honorable 
Federico A. Moreno, United States District Judge for the Southern District 
of Florida.  His sentencing for the conviction is scheduled for
December 20, 2001.  This matter is being handled by Trial Attorney Scott 
Dahl of the Public Integrity Section.  The investigation is being conducted 
by Department's Office of Inspector General in Ft. Lauderdale and by the 
Federal Bureau of Investigation's Miami Office.  ### 01-551




From drevil at sidereal.kz  Wed Oct 24 18:31:34 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil)
Date: 25 Oct 2001 01:31:34 -0000
Subject: FINALLY! we can buy Staria
In-Reply-To: <3BD7645B.D0EC8DFB@acmenet.net> (message from Steve Furlong
  on Wed, 24 Oct 2001 21:01:15 -0400)
References: <001801c15ce3$70a8d950$ea3a080a@vaio>
  <20011025002338.680.qmail@sidereal.kz> <3BD7645B.D0EC8DFB@acmenet.net>
Message-ID: <20011025013134.17929.qmail@sidereal.kz>


> http://www.tccsecure.com/csd4100.htm - no price

Great, no price and uses the world-famous DACE algorithm from Bell
Labs.  Next!

> http://www.thespystore.com/telefax.htm  - $249

One unit is a "scrambler" which boasts "52,488 code combinations!"
The other uses "rolling code scrambling", which I assume is not
digital.  Next!

> http://shop.store.yahoo.com/spytechagency/telscram.html - $260

It's another "scrambler" which doesn't list the algorithm and boasts
"thousands of key combinations."  I suspect that it is an analog
scrambler, not a true encryptor.  Next!

> http://www.tscm.com/stu.html - several models, over US$5000

Right, the Secure Telephone Units use solid security design and good
algorithms.  They are expensive.  STUs can be used for classified
information and they can be bought TEMPEST-spec.  I assume that either
these things are restricted to government contractors only, or if they
are available to anyone with a credit card, they come with a backdoor.

So, I checked all the URLs you gave me, and none of them, except the
STU, use real encryption, and the STUs are either not available, or
they are backdoored.

Starium is competing with STUs.  Not only does Starium have a catchier
name, but they are a fifth of the price of a STU, they are cooler
looking, and one could argue that they are less likely to have a
backdoor.

> And others in the over-US$1000 range.

Right, so Starium is price-competitive, easier to use, and possibly
more secure.  Oh, and they will sell to anyone who has money, unlike
the STU sellers, I assume.

I think their initial market are customers such as law enforcement,
criminal defense lawyers, and executives who might compare this with a
STU, and for whom $1000 vs $100 is no big deal.  Government and law
enforcement will think it's cheap compared to STUs.  It's not approved
for classified data (AFAIK) but that might not be a problem for law
enforcement work.




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From: duckquack at yahoo.com (duckquack at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 01:42:34 -0700
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From tonygrasso100 at yahoo.ca  Wed Oct 24 23:13:33 2001
From: tonygrasso100 at yahoo.ca (tony grasso)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 02:13:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: info
Message-ID: <20011025061333.67509.qmail@web21002.mail.yahoo.com>


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From drevil at sidereal.kz  Wed Oct 24 19:14:58 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil)
Date: 25 Oct 2001 02:14:58 -0000
Subject: FINALLY! we can buy Staria
In-Reply-To: <3BD77393.F1F031C@acmenet.net> (message from Steve Furlong
  on Wed, 24 Oct 2001 22:06:11 -0400)
References: <001801c15ce3$70a8d950$ea3a080a@vaio>
  <20011025002338.680.qmail@sidereal.kz> <3BD7645B.D0EC8DFB@acmenet.net>
  <20011025013134.17929.qmail@sidereal.kz>
  <3BD77393.F1F031C@acmenet.net>
Message-ID: <20011025021458.31897.qmail@sidereal.kz>


> We probably need to define the product category we're discussing. I was
> listing devices which prevent casual interception, and which Joe Average
> might conceivably buy. The Starium is obviously more robust than that,
> and consequently more expensive.

Right, exactly.  When Starium was first announced, people were excited
because it sounded like we were going to get industrial-strength stuff
at consumer prices.  That isn't reality, and now they are going to
sell industrial-strength stuff at industrial prices.  There's no way a
complicated all-digital public key crypto device can compete on price
with made-in-China analog scramblers, which are basically toys.  That
is not a smart fight to pick because the consumer who is just playing
around doesn't know the difference under the hood.  I'm glad they did
the smart thing on this.

> You asked in a previous message about the market size. For casual stuff,
> tens or hundreds of thousands in the US, if the device is in the $100
> range. For the serious stuff, I think you nailed the market pretty well.
> One or two orders of magnitude less, if the device is in the $1000
> range. Those numbers both assume no government interference, of course.

Sounds reasonable to me.  I hope they do well, but I'm not giving them
money until the devices are actually shipping.  I think they do have a
good chance because law enforcement and private security demand for
these things might be pretty good these days.




From sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com  Thu Oct 25 03:04:48 2001
From: sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com (sonofgomez709)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 03:04:48 -0700
Subject: A THREAT From My CoConSpiritOrWhatEver
Message-ID: <004401c15d3c$7d66e200$e60da2cd@vaio>

"Somehow we all end up paying for what we do."
-Bill Clinton
[ Source: http://www.thewinds.org/1997/06/cia.html ]


CJ Parker 
http://profiles.yahoo.com/sonofgomez709
http://members.w-link.net/~sog/INDEX.HTM
http://jya.com/cejfiles.htm

"The True Story Of The InterNet"
The Xenix ChainSaw Massacre
http://www.technopagan.org/politics/xenix/
WebWorld & The Mythical Circle Of Eunuchs
http://www.technopagan.org/politics/webworld/ 
InfoWar: Final Frontier Of The Digital rEvolution
http://www.technopagan.org/politics/infowarriors/
Space Aliens Hide My Drugs
http://www.technopagan.org/politics/sahmd/ 

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From: mini.atmbiz at laposte.net (mini.atmbiz at laposte.net)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 03:56:21 -0700
Subject: Thank You For Your Interest..........
Message-ID: 



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From drevil at sidereal.kz  Wed Oct 24 22:12:13 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil)
Date: 25 Oct 2001 05:12:13 -0000
Subject: FINALLY! we can buy Staria
In-Reply-To: <20011024235152.A30386@cluebot.com> (message from Declan
  McCullagh on Wed, 24 Oct 2001 23:51:52 -0400)
References: <20011023030629.5849.qmail@sidereal.kz>
  <20011024235152.A30386@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <20011025051213.31656.qmail@sidereal.kz>


> I happened to hear from Lee Caplin of Starium today. They've
> apparently (I'm looking at Lee's email message while typing this,
> but I don't wish to speak for them) abandoned plans to sell the
> bump-in-a-wire device. Now they're thinking of marketing a small
> RJ11'd cryptophone an executive would carry around. Also, Lee says
> Starium has filed for patents on a desk phone, answering machine and
> conference phone.

I understand their original reasons for the bump-in-the-wire model,
but I'm glad to hear they are making a cryptophone, because I don't
really want to have some other device there.  I want it integrated.
I'll wait to see what they come out with.  Another thing that would be
even more cool would be a cordless phone.  I will certainly buy these
things when they are shipping them, if they are somewhere in the $1000
range.




From anonymous at remailer.havenco.com  Wed Oct 24 22:31:10 2001
From: anonymous at remailer.havenco.com (Anonymous User)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 05:31:10 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: First, brand all the children
Message-ID: <60352f31c49139fae6579e9c53c7490b@remailer.havenco.com>


An armed uprising won't transpire, but a time will come
when people will run away from cities.

Even if you disagree with prophecy, I very much doubt that you truly
believe that there is men and women in great numbers that will fight.
After spending 26 years on this planet, it will not be a surprise to
me
when my neighbors, family & friends are first in line to 
the inoculation centers.
Why?
Because it will be the simpliest of things.

"And that no man might buy or sell, except he that had the mark"

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Furlong" 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 6:23 AM
Subject: Re: First, brand all the children


> Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> > When you have 99-1 votes in the Senate
> > (http://www.politechbot.com/p-02651.html), can anyone seriously
> > say that either the Democrats or Republicans can be trusted to
> > preserve our privacy and follow the demands of the Constitution?
> 
> No. Nor have the mass of national politicians been trustworthy
> since FDR or before.
> 
> It might be good that Congress is likely to pass a Draconian
> anti-terrorism law. The nibbling away at civil rights has gone
> generally without effective opposition. About the only hope for the
> retention of our rights is a massive chunk bitten off at once,
> while there are still enough armed Americans to put politicians in
> fear of their lives. I'm not actually hoping for an armed uprising,
> but the fear of one is
> clearly the only thing which will bring Congress, the federal
> courts, and the President to heel.
> 
> -- 
> Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
>   617-670-3793
> 
> "Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
> while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From CrushMaster at crushlink.com  Wed Oct 24 23:10:00 2001
From: CrushMaster at crushlink.com (CrushMaster at crushlink.com)
Date: 25 Oct 2001 06:10:00 -0000
Subject: Somebody has a crush on you
Message-ID: <20011025061000.10636.qmail@web3.crushlink.com>

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From hakkin at sarin.com  Thu Oct 25 06:37:55 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 06:37:55 -0700
Subject: Google bends for feds
Message-ID: <3BD815B3.FA4A879E@sarin.com>


Dozens of government agencies have rushed to pull sensitive
information off their websites and Google has backed their efforts by
clearing the cache of shuttered websites from its search engines, a
Google spokeswoman said.

Suppression Stifles Some Sites
http://wired.com/news/business/0,1367,47835,00.html




From piolenc at mozcom.com  Wed Oct 24 15:46:10 2001
From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 06:46:10 +0800
Subject: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and 
 bounds )
References: <3BD5C1D3.FBD76E8@lsil.com> <3.0.6.32.20011024082254.008092c0@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3BD744B2.6F56CC2E@mozcom.com>


David Honig wrote:

> Personally I'd prefer a non-colonial foreign policy that doesn't generate
> such antipathy.

And if you believe that WTC had anything to do with US foreign policy,
or that we would cease being targets if we e.g. dropped suppport for
Israel, you are living in a dream world and have "bought" the
terrorists' propaganda.

We need to send a message that "armed propaganda" is not an acceptable
form of self-expression, no matter what the alleged cause.


Marc de Piolenc
Philippines




From hakkin at sarin.com  Thu Oct 25 06:48:10 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 06:48:10 -0700
Subject: Starium patents? 
Message-ID: <3BD8181A.540F377D@sarin.com>


Declan writes:

>I happened to hear from Lee Caplin of Starium today. ...
>Also, Lee says Starium has filed for patents on a desk phone, answering
>machine and conference phone.

One wonders what they have that is patentable.  Given that we've been
using
laptops with PGPfone/Nautilus/SpeakFreely for a while.
Maybe the concept of an answering machine with PK exchange?
Is this supposed to be nonobvious?




From dog3 at ns.charc.net  Thu Oct 25 04:27:36 2001
From: dog3 at ns.charc.net (cubic-dog)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 07:27:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and   
 bounds )
In-Reply-To: <3BD7983E.B111112E@mozcom.com>
Message-ID: 


On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, F. Marc de Piolenc wrote:

> Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> > 
> > > We need to send a message that "armed propaganda" is not an acceptable
> > > form of self-expression, no matter what the alleged cause.
> > 
> > Review the American revolution and the current news before you follow this
> > little meme very far.
> 
> ..and your point is...?

Self evident.




From honig at sprynet.com  Thu Oct 25 07:35:26 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 07:35:26 -0700
Subject: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and  
   bounds )
In-Reply-To: <3BD7983E.B111112E@mozcom.com>
References: 
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011025073526.008539f0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 12:42 PM 10/25/01 +0800, F. Marc de Piolenc wrote:
>Jim Choate wrote:
>
>> 
>> > We need to send a message that "armed propaganda" is not an acceptable
>> > form of self-expression, no matter what the alleged cause.
>> 
>> Review the American revolution and the current news before you follow this
>> little meme very far.
>
>..and your point is...?

Obvious to americans ---that sometimes arms *should* be taken up.







 






  







From bob at black.org  Thu Oct 25 07:38:19 2001
From: bob at black.org (Subcommander Bob)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 07:38:19 -0700
Subject: Would you like your frog flash cooked or freeze dried 
Message-ID: <3BD823C4.8E49D963@black.org>


>Indeed. The frog has been adjusting to the heating water rather too
>well. It's time to flash cook the frog.

How about freeze-drying and milling him?

Wait until spores show up in hospitals... if you want to kick it up a
notch.




From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Oct 25 05:45:12 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 07:45:12 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: First, brand all the children
In-Reply-To: <60352f31c49139fae6579e9c53c7490b@remailer.havenco.com>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, Anonymous User wrote:

> An armed uprising won't transpire, but a time will come
> when people will run away from cities.

You're probably wrong on both counts. When the US falls, it will likely be
from internal stress from external (and long running) events. We should
hope that the fall is as bloodless as the one in the CCCP back in very
early 90's. Note that people won't run from the cities, nor will there
likely be mass destruction (unless somebody in 'power' gets hard headed
and retains some sort of control over the military). In the case of the
CCCP not only had the society in general had their fill but so did the
military. The key point to a bloodless fall will be the military saying 'I
think we'll sit this one out, thank you very much.'


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From bob at black.org  Thu Oct 25 07:45:13 2001
From: bob at black.org (Subcommander Bob)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 07:45:13 -0700
Subject: web.archive.org Internet archive to open ---google + archeology
Message-ID: <3BD82579.C68B6721@black.org>


Hey Mitch  --Another part of your permenant record

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-102501archive.story
By JOSEPH MENN, Times Staff Writer

SAN FRANCISCO -- An Internet archive containing more text than any
library in history will open its digital doors today, giving researchers
and the public access to just about everything posted on the World Wide
Web over the last five years.

The free archive, created by a San Francisco computer entrepreneur named
Brewster Kahle, allows academics to conduct the electronic equivalent of
archeological digs, rooting through reams of material illustrating the
evolution of the Web and its role in American society.

The Internet Archive, informally called the Wayback Machine, holds more
than 10 billion Web pages dating to 1996, including millions that had
vanished as dot-coms collapsed, big companies scaled back or updated
their offerings, and hobbyist Webmasters lost interest.

Researchers and academics have likened Kahle to a modern-day Andrew
Carnegie, the steel baron who endowed many of the nation's finest
libraries.

"Libraries are dedicated to collecting and making available the
permanent historical record," said Diane Kresh, the Library of Congress'
director for public service collections. She said trolling the Net is as
significant as gathering books or periodicals.

Want to see what the Heaven's Gate cult page looked like before the
group's mass suicide? There it is. Want to see how Yahoo's pages have
changed since 1996? Step this way. Pages published by everyone from
Fortune 500 companies to renegade porn merchants are stashed in the
Internet Archive.

The five-year, multimillion-dollar project has amassed five times as
much text as the Library of Congress, which helped fund the archive
along with Compaq Computer Corp., the National Science Foundation and
the Smithsonian Institution. The more-than 100 terabytes of data are
housed on 300 modified Hewlett-Packard desktop computers in a basement
at San Francisco's Presidio.

The effort to record Internet history has been directed and largely
financed by Kahle, a 41-year-old former supercomputer technologist who
sold one Web firm to America Online and another to Amazon.com.

"The opportunity of our time is to offer universal access to all of
human knowledge," Kahle said Wednesday from his office in the Presidio,
a decommissioned military base near the Golden Gate Bridge. "We're at a
unique point in time to offer universal access to anyone who walks into
a library in Uganda."

The Internet Archive uses automated "bots" to scour the Web. They
capture sites and return what they find to the computers at the
Presidio. The archive updates every two months. Once captured, the sites
are organized chronologically. Users type in a Web address, and the
archive displays versions of that site since 1996.

Sites that require passwords or block bots are not captured. And if
someone objects to their site being copied, the archive removes it.

As smaller, less accessible versions of the archive were being compiled,
Kahle's 30 staffers got a few complaints. After the staff explained that
it wasn't personal, that they were copying everyone's sites, the vast
majority decided they didn't mind, Kahle said.

"Most people say, 'You're crazy, but go for it,' " Kahle said. "People
want to be part of history."

Candidates to use the service, at web.archive.org, include academics,
journalists and researchers.

"It will allow researchers to study the evolution of the Web in a way
that is unprecedented," said research scientist Ed Chi of the Xerox Palo
Alto Research Center. He said Xerox PARC scientists already are working
on new user interfaces based on what the archive showed them about how
people looked for information.

Early on, "we suspect people will go look for their own pages and see if
they can get copies of things that they've lost," Kahle said. "We're not
exactly sure how this is going to be used. We're looking forward to
being surprised."

Like many Internet pioneers, however, Kahle faces unfamiliar risks along
with the opportunities. The Internet Archive may be a massive violation
of copyright law.

"Brewster is taking an extraordinarily personal risk, because this is
potentially a criminal offense," said Lawrence Lessig, an expert on
intellectual property in cyberspace at Stanford University.

Kahle doesn't anticipate getting sued, let alone serving jail time. His
plan is to post whatever he can--and keep the archive growing.

"We're not here to test laws," Kahle said. "We're trying to build a
world we want to live in. The world without a library is a world without
a memory, and that would be tragic."

The legal questions may take years to resolve, Kahle and Lessig said.

Consider the Industry Standard. At least some of that defunct magazine's
articles are back online through Kahle's archive. But shareholder IDG
paid more than $1 million for the Standard's assets, including rights to
those stories. An IDG spokeswoman declined to say whether the company
would ask the archive to drop the articles.

Kahle said he isn't worrying about the hypotheticals. He's more excited
about finding early www.whitehouse.gov pages from 1996 that dealt with
airport safety and bioterrorism.

Even better is what's to come.

"The woman who is going to be elected president in 2024 is in high
school now, and I bet she has a home page," Kahle said. "We have the
future president's home page!"




From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Oct 25 05:52:11 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 07:52:11 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Why Plan-9?
In-Reply-To: <20011024224728.A13558@navel.introspect>
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote:

> on Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 09:53:35PM -0500, Jim Choate (ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com) wrote:
> > This entire view misses the(!) one most important component of Unix's (and
> > Linux's) success, they were first.
> 
> Not hardly.

Yes, very particularly in fact.
 
> I wasn't keeping notes when K&R were designing their gaming platform,
> but history seems to recall OS/360, Multics, TICO, ITS, VMS.  A bit of
> quick Googling suggests the PDP-7 had its own native operating system
> (the PDP-11 certainly did), certainly more than what a couple of guys
> hanging around a broom closet could hammer out in a few days.

Being 'first' doesn't imply they were 'alone'. You misrepresent reality
to your own end.

What happened is there were a cloud of near-miss OS'es. In the case of
Unix it was the right one becuase of its scale and the mechanism it was
distributed by (it's development process was also out of the ordinary not
being some massive long running committee) and the particular pardigms
that it chose to use. There was a low cost distribution mechanism so
curious people could buy in for a low cost.

The same can be said for Linux, but in that case there were many factors. FSF 
was around and pushing Hurd but they were looking for somebody else to do
it. Minix and other near-miss kernels had been around for a few years so
its not like Linux poped out of thin air. There was no low cost
distribution mechanism that was popular prior to about '94. It's no
accident that Linux took off at the same time that the Internet in general
took off (about '94).

In both cases it was synergy of issues. The license being a key, but not
singular component (as you would have us believe). Another factor of equal
if not greater import was the cost/ease of actual/physical distribution.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Thu Oct 25 06:20:04 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 09:20:04 -0400
Subject: First, brand all the children
References: 
Message-ID: <3BD81184.74B45607@acmenet.net>


Jim Choate wrote:

> ...When the US falls
...
> The key point to a bloodless fall will be the military saying 'I
> think we'll sit this one out, thank you very much.'

And a major key to that is militarily useful weaponry in the hands of
the citizens.

It would be nice to think that most US soldiers would not participate in
the forceful subjugation of fellow Americans, but history (Kent State;
shooting a Texas goat herd while on border patrol) and psychology
(Stanford prison experiment) argue against that. And regardless, I'd
rather retain some measure of control over my destiny, rather than
solely trust in the good will of others.

-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From declan at well.com  Thu Oct 25 06:33:04 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 09:33:04 -0400
Subject: House chairman doesn't want "parochial" issues to stop
  wiretap bill
In-Reply-To: <20011024230641.B13558@navel.introspect>; from
  kmself@ix.netcom.com on Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 11:06:41PM -0700
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20011025004358.02083680@mail.well.com>
  <20011024230641.B13558@navel.introspect>
Message-ID: <20011025093304.B4671@cluebot.com>


On Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 11:06:41PM -0700, Karsten M. Self wrote:
> So, who're the Senate holdouts?  90+ votes means a filibuster's
> impossible under cloture rules, no?

Yes, a filibuster won't stand much chance, but bringing the bill to
the floor on unanimous consent won't work either. The Senate is still
somewhat gentlemanly (when reducing our legal rights), and they try to
find ways to avoid forcing a vote when there are holds on a bill. I
recall the holds can no longer be secret, though, so I should be able
to find out.

-Declan




From dlnews_sender at DTIC.MIL  Thu Oct 25 07:05:16 2001
From: dlnews_sender at DTIC.MIL (dlnews_sender at DTIC.MIL)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 10:05:16 -0400
Subject: Pentagon Seeks Ideas on Combating Terrorism
Message-ID: 

NEWS RELEASE from the United States Department of Defense

No. 540-01
(703)697-5131(media)
(703)697-5737(public/industry)

IMMEDIATE RELEASE

October 25, 2001


PENTAGON SEEKS IDEAS ON COMBATING TERRORISM

The Department of Defense announced today that the Under
Secretary of Defense for Acquisition, Technology and Logistics
and the Combating Terrorism Technology Support Office Technical
Support Working Group are jointly sponsoring a Broad Agency
Announcement (BAA) asking for help in fighting terrorism.
The BAA, issued Oct. 23 (No. 02-Q-4655), specifically seeks help
in combating terrorism, defeating difficult targets, conducting
protracted operations in remote areas, and developing
countermeasures to weapons of mass destruction.  Its objective
is to find concepts that can be developed and fielded within 12
to 18 months.

The BAA provides for a three-phase process in which interested
parties initially submit a one-page description of their
concept.  Initial responses are due by Dec. 23, 2001.  After a
review of a submission and if DoD is interested in further
information, the submitter will then be asked to provide a more
detailed description of up to 12 pages of the idea.  Submitters
of concepts that the department is not interested in pursuing
further will be so notified.

DoD will evaluate phase two submissions and ask those who have
offered the most promising ideas to submit full proposals in a
third phase that may form the basis for a contract.  Phase two
submitters who are not asked to submit full proposals will be so
notified.  Submitters of a full phase three proposal that is not
accepted by the department may request a formal debriefing.
Debriefings will not be provided to phase one and phase two
submitters whose concepts were not accepted.

Interested parties can obtain more information concerning this
BAA by visiting http://www.bids.tswg.gov .

[Web version: http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Oct2001/b10252001_bt540-01.html]

-----




From declan at well.com  Thu Oct 25 07:08:09 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 10:08:09 -0400
Subject: Corporate welfare, the end of competitive bidding, or both?
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20011025100748.0207a5c0@mail.well.com>


10.  Pentagon under pressure to delay or divide Joint Strike Fighter contract
By Brody Mullins, CongressDaily
Supporters of the Boeing Co., bracing for yet another big loss, are 
pressuring the Pentagon to delay or divvy up a massive new contract for 
next-generation fighter jets to replace the military's existing wing of 
warplanes.
Allies of the aerospace giant fear that granting rival Lockheed Martin 
Corp. the entire $200 billion joint strike fighter contract would deal a 
devastating blow to Boeing, even as its commercial aircraft business 
continues to reel from last month's terrorist attacks.
Republican Sen. Christopher (Kit) Bond and Democratic Sen. Jean Carnahan, 
both of Missouri, back a proposal to force the Pentagon to award the loser 
of the fighter jet contract with one- third of the project's manufacturing.
Full story: http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/1001/102401cdam2.htm




From rgb at cognitiveliberty.org  Thu Oct 25 10:19:01 2001
From: rgb at cognitiveliberty.org (Richard Glen Boire)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 10:19:01 -0700
Subject: 9-11 Narco-Interrogation & Torture
Message-ID: 

Hi Matt -

Below is the CCLE response to information in the Washington 
Post indicating that the FBI is considering using torture and 
mind-altering drugs to get the 9-11 detainees to talk. Please forward 
to your list. (Sources with URLS are given at the bottom.)

This press release can be accessed on the Internet at: 


--Richard Glen Boire
Executive Director
Center for Cognitive Liberty & Ethics (CCLE)

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
October 25, 2001

Drugging or Torture of 9-11 Suspects Breaks Constitution, Law, and Treaties

Amidst reports that the FBI is considering the use of forced drugging 
and even torture to make suspects in the September 11 attacks divulge 
information, the Center for Cognitive Liberty & Ethics (CCLE) is 
calling on the FBI and other government agencies involved in the 
investigation to respect US and International law, which strictly 
forbids such invasive and brutal police tactics. 

The Washington Post reported on Sunday that in an effort to extract 
information from the detainees, FBI and Justice Department 
investigators are considering using drugs or pressure tactics, such 
as those employed occasionally by Israeli interrogators, to extract 
information. Another idea is extraditing the suspects to allied 
countries where security services sometimes employ threats to family 
members or resort to torture. (Walter Pincus, "Silence of 4 Terror 
Probe Suspects Poses Dilemma", Washington Post, Sunday, October 21, 
2001; Page A06)

"The use of torture or physical intimidation to force a suspect to 
reveal information is a clear violation of US and International law" 
says Attorney Richard Glen Boire, Executive Director of the Center 
for Cognitive Liberty & Ethics. The Fifth Amendment to the US 
Constitution guarantees that no person shall be compelled in any 
criminal case to be a witness against himself, and protects all 
people on US soil, whether citizens or not. Torturing a person in 
order to extract a confession is inherently coercive and renders any 
subsequent statements compelled, involuntary, unreliable, and wholly 
unconstitutional.

Invoking the Fifth Amendment, some of the 9-11 detainees have 
asserted their constitutional right to remain silent, refusing to 
speak with investigators. It's deeply disturbing, says Boire, that 
the act of asserting the constitutional right to remain silent is 
what is provoking the authorities to consider resorting to torture 
and drugging.

Numerous international conventions prohibit the use of torture as an 
intelligence gathering technique. Article 5 of the Universal 
Declaration of Human Rights and article 7 of the International 
Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, both provide that no one 
shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading 
treatment or punishment.

Likewise the International Convention against Torture and Other 
Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (Convention 
Against Torture), prohibits any act by which severe pain or 
suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on 
a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person 
information or a confession.

The Center for Cognitive Liberty & Ethics is particularly disturbed 
by reports that FBI agents may try and skirt US and international 
prohibitions on physical torture by instead interrogating the 
suspects after forcefully administering them mind-altering drugs. The 
Washington Post article quoted a former senior FBI official with a 
background in counter terrorism who distinguished the forced use of 
"truth serum" from beating a guy till he is senseless.
When the United States ratified the Convention Against Torture on 
October 21, 1994, it expressly acknowledged that torture includes the 
administration or application, or threatened administration or 
application, of mind altering substances or other procedures 
calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality.

The bar on torture and forced drugging under the Convention Against 
Torture does not have a war time or suspected terrorist exemption, 
comments Boire, adding that Article 2 of the Convention states  "No 
exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a 
threat of war, internal political in stability or any other public 
emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture."

The prospect of US law enforcement agents interrogating a person 
after injecting that person with a mind-altering drug is terrifying 
and grossly unconstitutional, says Boire. Under the Fifth Amendment 
there is no distinction between the use of physical force to obtain a 
statement and the compelled administration of a mind-altering drug to 
obtain a statement. Both techniques, notes Boire violate the firmly 
embedded constitutional guarantee against coerced confessions in 
which a suspect's will is overborne or the confession was not the 
product of a rational intellect and a free will.

Condemning the use of drug-induced confessions, the US Supreme Court 
has stated, "It is difficult to imagine a situation in which a 
confession would be less the product of a free intellect, less 
voluntary, than when brought about by a drug having the effect of a 
"truth serum." (Townsend v. Sain (1963) 372 U.S. 293.) In another 
case, the Supreme Court cautioned, "the blood of the accused is not 
the only hallmark of an unconstitutional inquisition." (Blackburn v. 
Alabama (1960) 361 U.S. 199, quoted in Miranda v. Arizona (1966) 384 
U.S. 436.) 

The Center for Cognitive Liberty & Ethics calls upon federal 
authorities to respect the fundamental rights that are enshrined in 
the US Constitution and in the international conventions protecting 
human rights and prohibiting government-endorsed torture and mind 
manipulation. Under no circumstances are US government agents 
permitted to coerce statements through the use of physical 
intimidation or the forceful administration of mind-altering drugs. 
Use of such barbaric interrogation techniques is unlawful, says Boire 
, violates the basic human right to physical and mental autonomy, 
vitiates the presumption of innocence, and runs counter to the most 
fundamental and cherished of American freedoms and constitutional 
guarantees.

For More Information:
Ms. Zara Gelsey
CCLE, Director of Communications
Telephone & Fax: 530-750-7912
E-mail: zara at cognitiveliberty.org

Resources:
This press release can be accessed on the Internet at: 
<>

Washington Post  Article 
>

Universal Declaration of Human Rights 
<>

International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights 


Convention Against Torture 

US ratification of Convention Against Torture 
<>

About the Center for Cognitive Liberty & Ethics (CCLE)
The Center for Cognitive Liberty & Ethics is a nonpartisan, nonprofit 
501(c)(3), law and policy center working in the public interest to 
protect fundamental civil liberties. The Center seeks to foster 
cognitive liberty  the basic human right to unrestrained independent 
thinking, including the right to control one's own mental processes 
and to experience the full spectrum of possible thought.

**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week)
Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722  ICQ: 106212065   Archived at 
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**************************************************************************




From product20 at keytochina.net  Wed Oct 24 19:19:31 2001
From: product20 at keytochina.net (product20)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 10:19:31 +0800
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <1345352997.20011025101931@keytochina.net>


Dear sir,

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I am sure Chinese nice products with low prices will be your best choice.

Best regards,

Frank

Marketing Manager

Brighsun Int'l Trading Co., Ltd.

Address: 41/F, Jin Mao Tower, No 88, Century Boulevard, Shanghai, China

Zipcode: 200120

Fax: 86-21-58769500

Tel: 86-21-58796544-802

Email: product20 at keytochina.net

Website: www.keytochina.net





From jya at pipeline.com  Thu Oct 25 10:52:20 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 10:52:20 -0700
Subject: DoD Cries for Help
Message-ID: <200110251458.KAA21819@hall.mail.mindspring.net>


Protect your own loved ones and save $300 billion in annual 
defense funding, $30 billion for intelligence and umpteen 
billions more for hapless Health and Human Services, 
Justice, FBI, Congress, Supreme Court and not least the 
Presidency riding its sad nag of anti-terrorism bassackwards.

-----


From sandfort at mindspring.com  Thu Oct 25 10:54:58 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 10:54:58 -0700
Subject: MORE MENTALISM
Message-ID: 


C'punks,

Penn asked Teller for a good book on mentalism.  Teller suggested a "great
classic mentalism book is THIRTEEN STEPS TO MENTALISM by Corinda."  I didn't
find it on Amazon, but I'm sure it's out there somewhere.

Soon, you too will be "predicting" lotto winners.


 S a n d y




From adam at homeport.org  Thu Oct 25 08:13:27 2001
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 11:13:27 -0400
Subject: FINALLY! we can buy Staria
In-Reply-To: <001801c15ce3$70a8d950$ea3a080a@vaio>
References: <20011023030629.5849.qmail@sidereal.kz>
  <001801c15ce3$70a8d950$ea3a080a@vaio>
Message-ID: <20011025111327.A5812@weathership.homeport.org>


On Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 04:27:25PM -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
| I don't understand why one would pay $1000 for a Starium device when
| comparable devices are available in the market place for less than half
| of that. The design goal for the new Starium boxes was sub-$100 retail.
| I doubt that design goal was met, but I would not pay a penny over $350
| for one device. Which will still leave the seller with a nice profit.

$249 is a magic price for consumer electronics, and I won't pay a
penny over that.  Not because it makes a huge difference to me, but I
can't see them selling well enough to be widespread and have a network
effect at $350.


Adam

| > -----Original Message-----
| > From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com 
| > [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com] On Behalf Of Dr. Evil
| > Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 8:06 PM
| > To: cypherpunks at lne.com
| > Subject: FINALLY! we can buy Staria
| > 
| > 
| > (is that the correct plural of Starium?)
| > 
| > http://www.tactronix.com/s100.htm
| > 
| > NOW TAKING PRE-ORDERS FOR DELIVERY IN DECEMBER 2001/JANUARY 2002
| > 
| > Very Limited Quantity Available
| > 
| > A 50% Deposit Will Reserve Your Units Today!!
| > 
| > 1-10 Units  $995 USD Each
| > 
| > 11-20 Units $936 USD Each
| > 
| > 21-50 Units $884 USD Each
| > 
| > 51 Units+ Call For Price
| > 
| > What do people here think of this?  My initial thoughts are:
| > 
| > Pros:
| > 
| > 1. Voice encryption is great.  It's the Last Great Encryption Taboo
| >    (the other is file encryption, but that's not nearly as taboo as
| >    voice).  I'm glad to see something on the market which addresses
| >    this.  Obviously, all traffic, including saying hi to grandma,
| >    should be encrypted.
| > 
| > 2. The unit looks very easy to use.  I could travel anywhere in the
| >    world with it (well, anywhere that it's legal) and plug it in and
| >    press one button and it works.  That's great.
| > 
| > Cons:
| > 
| > 1. I would like to see an open source reference software
| >    implementation, or some way to verify that there are no "naughty
| >    bits" in this thing.  I know, open source isn't much of a business
| >    model, but with encryption products, it seems almost essential.
| > 
| > 2. It's expensive.  It costs more than a PC.  However, $2k for two
| >    units is small compared to the value of data it could be securing,
| >    so for many users, the price will be fine.
| > 
| > 3. A minor nitpick: It uses 3DES.  What's wrong with AES?
| > 
| > I think I would like to buy some of them, but I can't decide 
| > if I want to be an early adopter, or wait for cheaper and 
| > better versions to come out.

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume




From schear at lvcm.com  Thu Oct 25 11:15:56 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 11:15:56 -0700
Subject: The Cost of Oil
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011025111434.039607f0@pop3.lvcm.com>


[Forbes catches up to cypherpunks]

Americans are paying a bigger price than they know for cheap gas.
Charles Dubow

http://www.forbes.com/2001/10/22/1022oilcosts.html




From adam at homeport.org  Thu Oct 25 08:17:59 2001
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 11:17:59 -0400
Subject: [techdiff@ix.netcom.com: [Med-privacy] National Individual
  Identifier]
Message-ID: <20011025111759.A5929@weathership.homeport.org>


----- Forwarded message from peter marshall  -----


From sunder at sunder.net  Thu Oct 25 08:25:26 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 11:25:26 -0400 (edt)
Subject: Why Plan-9?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Sun, 21 Oct 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> Transitive means that A mounts B, C mounts A and gets B free. Plan 9 does
> this, managed by a set of authorization layers for fine control, native.

This could be bad.  Say B doesn't want to allow access to C for its file
systems. Then what?  Any mechanisms to prevent A from resharing it?  It's
also bad depending on how it's implemented.

Say A has a low bandwith connection to B such as ISDN, but it has a high
bandwith connection to C.  If C uses A to get to B, that slows you
down.  Does it treat the file systems differently or is it just resharing
a mounted file system?


> This means that when Hangar 18 goes online you can mount /hangar18 into
> your filespace (via Plan 9 or Linux NFS services) and you will get all the
> resources that Hangar 18 mounts through that point. ftp is a good example.

Yeah, so now you're eating double the bandwith of hangar 18.  Say hangar
18 is connected over a T1 and nothing else.  You mount it's file systems
over nfs or whatever Plan 9 uses and do cd /ftp2.sourceforge.net, then you
copy a file from there.  

Well now, you've just effectively doubled the traffic to hangar18.  If the
owner is paying a flat rate, it's not so bad, you're just wastng bandwith.  
But if it's at a colocation it will be enough to go over the percentile
rating and have to pay for extra usage.

Even if the two boxes are on the same local network (broadcast domain),
you'd still saturate your hubs/switches by doubling this traffic, and even
slow down access (latency) as you're using plan-9 to translate from ftp to
it's native scheme to nfs.  Further, you're eating lots of extra cpu
cycles on the plan 9 box(es) while they do this. 

What if hangar18 has a few ftp sites mounted and you run the equivalent of
the find command (which recursively searches for files.)  It goes over the
ftp connections and walks every single connection of the internet?  That's
kind of insane.  It'll take forever and eat up bandwidth at both ends.



And as you say below, it would even cache some of it... ugh...  hope there
are limits to this.

> In Plan 9 you 'mount' the ftp server to your file system. If you ever go
> out and walk that part of the file space tree and request a file it only
> then goes and gets it. You can control its lifetime (to manage disk space
> for example) via local cache controls. A 'lazy update' mechanism, very
> efficient of network and local resources.

Yeah, it's "cool" but wasteful.

> The network layer. The traffic between any two Plan 9 boxes is encrypted
> with keys dependent upon the individual boxes (or larger classes if you
> desire) if the system is so configured. You can also use this to encrypt
> branches of your filesystem. Plan 9 provides SSH.

Just DES? And no disk encryption????  What about swap?

Any ip filtering / firewalling mechanisms?  Any routing mechanisms?  Any
NATting mechanisms?

The clustering / distributing computing aspects of it are
cool.  But... I'm still not convinced...
 
> > >  - Doesn't use passwords, Instead it uses tickets (ie certificates).
> > 
> > ...which are granted via...?
> 
> However the resource owner choses. I'm using 'small worlds network' models
> for my 'web of trust'...

So it's like kerberos in some ways?
 
> It should be, X Windows sucks.

Xwindows by itself without a window/desktop manager? yes that would suck
balls.  XWindows with Ximian GNOME or KDE, nope - it rocks, though not on
old hardware.

> > What's Inferno?
> 
> Another OS, intended for real-time control of "Internet Appliances". You
> run it along side Plan 9.

Whoop. :)  You can control most internet appliances through a web gui or
telnet/ssh command line anyway.




From zem at zip.com.au  Wed Oct 24 18:30:22 2001
From: zem at zip.com.au (zem)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 11:30:22 +1000 (EST)
Subject: openbsd encrypted fs
In-Reply-To: <20011024030735.733.qmail@sidereal.kz>
Message-ID: 


On 24 Oct 2001, Dr. Evil wrote:

> No, it has nothing to do with speed.  Machines are plenty fast.  This
> is just a kludgy way to do this, and the last time I tried it, I got
> kernel panics within a day or so of uptime.  Not acceptable,
> obviously.

2.7 had problems.  It's worked reliably for me since 2.8.  YMMV.

> > >Is booting from an encrypted fs ever useful?  Use read-only media if
> > >tampering is a concern.  Configure and mount other encrypted filesystems
> > >from /etc/rc.  If you can install and maintain OpenBSD, you can manage
>
> Surely you can appreciate that a software-only solution to
> tamper-resistance might have some usefulness?  Surely you can
> understand that, given a choice between booting from a CD and booting
> from hard disk, it might be an enormous pain to boot from CD all the
> time, and CDs are far less tamper-resistant than encrypted disk?
> Surely you can understand that there might be some config files in
> /etc that contain valuable information in some circumstances?

Sure.  Union mount the sensitive stuff over /etc as necessary.  CDs are
tamper resistant because they can be removed and carried.  Encryption is
not very useful as a tamper protection measure - it won't protect against
a DoS, or replacement of a partition with a trojan.

Encrypting system binaries is rarely useful.  It creates bootstrapping
problems and doesn't provide much benefit.  Encrypting /usr/local is
useful.

> Or
> perhaps a user wants to make sure that it cannot be proved that a
> certain application or kernel mod is installed?  With the right kind
> of boot loader and encrypted FS, you could conceal which OS is even
> being run.

Let's take a step back - this thread started because you suggested
win2k's encrypted filesystem was more useable than openbsd's.  Now your
argument against openbsd is that it's not invisible.

Out of interest, can Windows boot from an encrypted disk?

Yes, there are many different threat models ranging from casual to
paranoia.  Neither win2k nor openbsd will satisfy the truly paranoid.  But
openbsd does have a useful encrypted filesystem.

You're welcome to whine about the loopback not being the right colour or
whatever.  Hell, I'd skip the loopback layer if I could.  In the meantime
I'll use what's available.  My /home partition is encrypted - is yours?

> I can't believe that some people on this list think that storing data
> in an encrypted format is pointless.

Encrypting data is useful.  Encrypting system binaries is of little value.


-- 
mailto:zem at zip.com.au F289 2BDB 1DA0 F4C4 DC87 EC36 B2E3 4E75 C853 FD93
http://zem.squidly.org/ "I'm invisible, I'm invisible, I'm invisible.."




From bounce-stocknight-90845T at lyris.stocknight.com  Thu Oct 25 11:30:23 2001
From: bounce-stocknight-90845T at lyris.stocknight.com (Stocks)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 11:30:23 -0700
Subject: Anthrax Detection Device announced ...
Message-ID: 



                           _/_/ RAPID BLAST _/_/

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  DISCLAIMER

  All statements and expressions are the sole opinions of Rapid Blast
and are subject to change without 
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securities mentioned. We do not represent or gaurantee the accuracy of
any statements made herein. The owners of Rapid Blast have been paid 
  $15,000 by Corporate Information Bureau to prepare and disseminate
this report and provide other 
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---
You are currently subscribed to stocknight as: cypherpunks at algebra.com
To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-stocknight-90845T at lyris.stocknight.com




From zem at zip.com.au  Wed Oct 24 18:41:37 2001
From: zem at zip.com.au (zem)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 11:41:37 +1000 (EST)
Subject: openbsd encrypted fs
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20011023085022.03235620@idiom.com>
Message-ID: 


On Tue, 23 Oct 2001, Bill Stewart wrote:

> At 01:38 PM 10/23/2001 +1000, zem wrote:
> >On 23 Oct 2001, Dr. Evil wrote:
> > > > vnconfig -ck svnd0 diskimage
>
> I don't have a BSD system around to check -
> what does this approach do?

Create a loopback device.  "-k" means encrypt - cipher is blowfish,
there's no way to change it.  After vnconfig, /dev/svnd0 becomes a block
device; use newfs and mount as with any partition.

Here's the man page:

http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/man.cgi?query=vnconfig

> Is Dr. Evil's concern with loopback just the speed?
> (Plus the ugly minimal user interface, which is a job for a script.)
> Machines are enough faster these days that I'd think the
> only places that's a big hit, other than database apps,
> are swap space, and you can mostly fix that by buying enough RAM.

The performance hit is acceptable, it's much faster than CFS.  OpenBSD's
encrypted swap uses the same mechanism.

> >It's worth noting their primary goal is network security, not crypto.
> >Rubber hoses don't factor significantly in their threat model.
>
> Laptop theft belongs in *most* security models.

Agreed.


-- 
mailto:zem at zip.com.au F289 2BDB 1DA0 F4C4 DC87 EC36 B2E3 4E75 C853 FD93
http://zem.squidly.org/ "I'm invisible, I'm invisible, I'm invisible.."




From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org  Thu Oct 25 09:00:51 2001
From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 12:00:51 -0400
Subject: web.archive.org Internet archive to open ---google + archeology
References: <3BD82579.C68B6721@black.org>
Message-ID: <3BD83733.7080305@dragonsweb.org>


Subcommander Bob wrote:





> http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-102501archive.story
> By JOSEPH MENN, Times Staff Writer
> 
> SAN FRANCISCO -- An Internet archive containing more text than any
> library in history will open its digital doors today, giving researchers
> and the public access to just about everything posted on the World Wide
> Web over the last five years.
> 

Way cool. It needs to be mirrored, though. Single point of 
failure/distribution invites history being rewritten the way it always 
has been until now.

jbdigriz




From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Thu Oct 25 12:02:37 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 12:02:37 -0700
Subject: Why Plan-9?
In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@einstein.ssz.com on Thu, Oct 25, 2001 at 07:52:11AM -0500
References: <20011024224728.A13558@navel.introspect> 
Message-ID: <20011025120236.A26389@navel.introspect>

on Thu, Oct 25, 2001 at 07:52:11AM -0500, Jim Choate (ravage at einstein.ssz.com) wrote:
> On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote:
> 
> > on Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 09:53:35PM -0500, Jim Choate (ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com) wrote:
> > > This entire view misses the(!) one most important component of Unix's (and
> > > Linux's) success, they were first.
> > 
> > Not hardly.
> 
> Yes, very particularly in fact.
>  
> > I wasn't keeping notes when K&R were designing their gaming
> > platform, but history seems to recall OS/360, Multics, TICO, ITS,
> > VMS.  A bit of quick Googling suggests the PDP-7 had its own native
> > operating system (the PDP-11 certainly did), certainly more than
> > what a couple of guys hanging around a broom closet could hammer out
> > in a few days.
> 
> Being 'first' doesn't imply they were 'alone'. You misrepresent
> reality to your own end.

Define your market or relevant niche, with specificity.

-- 
Karsten M. Self        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?             Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html
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From blummenstein at LatinMail.com  Thu Oct 25 09:39:42 2001
From: blummenstein at LatinMail.com (Andres blummenstein)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 12:39:42 -0400
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <20011025163545.E6D1B8750F@linux1583.dn.net>


Hi can you provide me with an updated password for adultfriendfinder, I have been trying the ones posted at cypherpunks but they do not longer work,

Thank you very much 

David Blummenstein from Holland 






_________________________________________________________
http://www.latinmail.com.  Gratuito, latino y en espa�ol.




From piolenc at mozcom.com  Wed Oct 24 21:41:19 2001
From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 12:41:19 +0800
Subject: [psychohistory] A Terrorist's Nursery (fwd)
References: 
Message-ID: <3BD797EF.605CA7B3@mozcom.com>




Jim Choate wrote:


> But Nato's escape clause won't work this time round. For as the Afghan
> refugees turn up in their thousands at the border, it is palpably evident
> that they are fleeing not the Taliban but our bombs and missiles. The
> Taliban is not ethnically cleansing its own Pashtun population. The refugees
> speak vividly of their fear and terror as our bombs fall on their cities.
> These people are terrified of our "war on terror'', victims as innocent as
> those who were slaughtered in the World Trade Centre on 11 September. So
> where do we stop?

Let's see - terrorism has to be accepted because it only kills our
children on purpose; retaliation is evil because it sometimes kills
theirs by accident. If we accept the moral equivalence of terror and
retaliation, the question is not "where do we stop?" but "where do we
begin?"

The right of self-defense is as fundamental as the right to life itself.
Pacifists may comfort themselves with the fuzzy notion that meeting bin
Laden's demands (and presumably the demands of every other two-bit
killer with enough cash to buy a Kalashnikov and some plastique) will
free us of the threat of terrorism; unfortunately, I have studied terror
for 25 years and know better, so that comfort is denied me. 

The only real alternatives are (1) retaliate against the attackers, no
matter who they are or where they lurk, or (2) accept that anybody with
a grudge against people who are happier than he is has the prerogative
of taking life with impunity.

Marc de Piolenc
Philippines





From piolenc at mozcom.com  Wed Oct 24 21:42:38 2001
From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 12:42:38 +0800
Subject: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and  
 bounds )
References: 
Message-ID: <3BD7983E.B111112E@mozcom.com>




Jim Choate wrote:

> 
> > We need to send a message that "armed propaganda" is not an acceptable
> > form of self-expression, no matter what the alleged cause.
> 
> Review the American revolution and the current news before you follow this
> little meme very far.

..and your point is...?

Marc de Piolenc





From jamesd at echeque.com  Thu Oct 25 12:57:01 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 12:57:01 -0700
Subject: FBI considers torture as suspects stay silent
In-Reply-To: 
References: <08E9EFC6-C769-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <3BD80C1D.29419.FF4C52@localhost>


    --
On 22 Oct 2001, at 23:05, measl at mfn.org wrote:
>  My understanding
> (from questioning on this topic in the distant past with an 
> MD/"shrink") is that the sodium 
> thiopental/pentobarbital/etc. "truth serum" is an urban 
> legend.  He was quite specific that the drug was a definite 
> aid to relaxing patients, and "allowing" them to go where 
> they _wanted_ to (psychiatrically speaking) with much less 
> "work", but that "pentothal interviews" were very much not 
> free-will altering devices.

In vino veritas.

People will confess under mere psychological pressure even
when sober, sometimes to terrible crimes that they have not
committed.

A wide variety of drugs, most famously alcohol, will make
them even more talkative, though less coherent and
intelligible.  Most of the date rape drugs are also highly
effective truth serums, most of them considerably more
effective even than alcohol.  Jimson weed can get anyone to
talk with alarming frankness, though what they say may not
make a lot of sense, or have any reliable connection to
reality. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     OV/M+pPz395rYGZdJAWC2jLQTsBD3fd0KW7/Aptz
     4zUt5zqlpjnRPDD27tfczySh5sIhOm2VMSIQaItmW




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Thu Oct 25 05:28:20 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 13:28:20 +0100
Subject: [Fwd: [biofuel] VW presents new synthetic fuel strategy]
References: <3BD716D3.D822DC6D@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <3BD80563.CA321DF3@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Harmon Seaver posted:

[...]

> VW presents new synthetic fuel strategy
 
[...]
 
> To a large extent, this biomass consists of carbon and hydrogen. In
> the first step of the SunFuel process, these major constituents of
> biomass are converted into synthesis gas (H2, CO, CO2). This is then
> transformed into hydrocarbons in a synthesis reactor and processed as
> required to produce the "designer" fuel.
> 
> SunFuel is an extremely high-grade fuel, free from sulphur and
> aromatics. As biomass binds carbon dioxide during growth, the process
> is neutral with regard to carbon dioxide production. A variety of
> different types of biomass can be used for the synthesis of the new
> fuel.

In other words a cleaned-up version of the old Town Gas that provided
the original streetlighting for industrial cities in the C19 and used to
be made in the vast gasworks dotted around all over the place until
piped natural methane took over in the 1960s.

There's no news here (except for VW's stupid choice of brand name). 
We've always known we could replace petroleum and coal by agricultural
production, because oil and coal were themselves introduced as
replacements for the vegetable oils, whale oils, tallows,  alcohols and
charcoals that people used to burn before the oil industry got big in
the 1870s-1890s.

The reason we use mineral oils from the ground is that they are
*cheaper*.

If the price of a barrel of crude oil rises above somewhere between 30
and 60 dollars (depending on who you believe), then coal and  oilshale
become cheaper & we can switch to that. If the price of mineral fuels
rises above somewhere between 50 and 100 dollars per equivalent of a
barrel of oil, then using liquid fuel derived from agriculture becomes
cheaper. 

The only ways will will be using such fuels on a large scale in rich
countries in the near future is one of:

- we "run out of oil" a lot more spectacularly than looks likely now 

- or world regresses to impoverished autarkies with little trade between
them so industrialised countries with no oil have to make their own (cf.
South Africa in 1970s, or Germany during world wars)

- or governments tax oil so much that bio fuel is cheaper (in UK right
now industrial alcohol is cheaper than petrol because of tax - but
ordinary citizens aren't allowed to buy it in any quantity, and what we
can buy is also taxed)

- or global warming looks so bad that people are prepared to accept an
increase in their costs in order to avoid burning fossil fuel (and are
prepared to use legal or government or military constraints to prevent
others burning it as well)

Which do you prefer?

Ken Brown




Of course it always was cheaper to use agricultural product  as solid
fuel, if you were near the farm and if you had an application that can
handle it. Which is  why, for example, sugar refineries in poor tropical
countries get their heat from burning waste from the cane. And there are
a few green-minded small-scale projects that burn coppiced wood they
grow themselves.   But the distribution and handling complexity of
moving millions of tons of solid waste around make that too expensive
for large scale use. Same as the poultry farm my sister lives on can
save money by burning methane given off from  duck shit. But not many of
us share our homes with a quarter of a million ducks.




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From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Thu Oct 25 13:36:36 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 13:36:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: ...
Message-ID: <200110252036.f9PKabh04609@artifact.psychedelic.net>


subscribe cypherpunks




From gbroiles at well.com  Thu Oct 25 13:43:58 2001
From: gbroiles at well.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 13:43:58 -0700
Subject: Where the torture never stops..
In-Reply-To: <200110252004.f9PK4Oc21970@ns2.memec.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011025132715.0433c470@bivens.parrhesia.com>


At 01:04 PM 10/25/2001 -0700, Onin wal-a bin Hakkin wrote:

>if you are incarcerated for a fucked up deed you shouldnt
>expect to be put in the hilton. is this not a universal
>idea and accepted?
>jailprisontheklink is supposed to SUCK.
>[...]
>i ask you, am i a bad person for feeling this way?

What you seem to be missing is that the approx 1000 people now being held 
haven't been "incarcerated for a fucked up deed" - they're being held for 
what's probably a spectrum of reasons, ranging from "found in an airport 
with a one-way plane ticket, a boxcutter, and a forged passport on the 
morning of 9/11" to "gave a cop too much attitude while having a 
non-Western name". But we don't know who's being held, nor for how long, 
nor what the reasons are, or the evidence which establishes that the 
"reasons" have some relationship to reality.

We have a special process for deciding who's done fucked up deeds and thus 
deserving of punishment, and it's called a trial.

After these people have had one, then we can argue about what ought to 
happen to them. Until then - and/or at least until the evidence against 
these people has been made public and subjected to scrutiny - we don't know 
whether these people are Mother Teresa or Satan himself or somewhere in 
between.

If we're going to start beating and torturing and killing people pretrial 
(paying special attention to foreigners who may not fully agree with our 
culture or values), exactly how is the ruling regime in the US different 
from the ruling regime in Afghanistan? The only aspect left that I can see 
that's different would be a nominally secular vs religious basis, but I 
don't trust Ashcroft to respect that for long.

Pretrial detention is not supposed to suck, it's supposed to be minimally 
burdensome, to the extent that's compatible with making sure people show up 
for trial, don't commit further crimes, and don't cost an exorbitant amount 
of staff attention.

(* This isn't meant as a claim that what we had prior to 9/11 in terms of 
trials, pretrial detention, or any of the other criminal procedure features 
was what it's advertised to be, or that it was compatible with the 
Constitution - but I still regard the abandonment of even the pretense of 
complying with the Constitution as a significant step towards some very 
serious trouble.)


--
Greg Broiles
gbroiles at well.com
"We have found and closed the thing you watch us with." -- New Delhi street kids




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Thu Oct 25 05:55:11 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 13:55:11 +0100
Subject: Retribution not enough
References: <3BD727BF.11795.6CAC0@localhost>
Message-ID: <3BD80BAF.E1BF4B10@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


jamesd at echeque.com wrote:

 
> On 22 Oct 2001, at 12:21, Ken Brown wrote:
> > In general, no. But it happens now and again.  Governments
> certainly did
> > in (say) the old Soviet Union
> 
> I do not think so.
> 
> Lenin surrounded the cities to keep people and food from going in
> and out.   This was the first step in a program to reintroduce
> serfdom, binding the peasant to the land.
> 
> Lenin, and later Stalin, were waging war on the countryside to
> extort food without supplying goods.  This produced a flight from
> the countryside, that they immediately met with terror.

Of course. I was just pointing out that some of the time, in some
places,  they conscripted labour into industry. A lot of the time they
did various other things. In general they both wanted to restrict
movement and (later) to slowly reduce the proportion of people working
on the land. And like most other countries they had industrial
conscription during the war.

I wasn't really trying to make a point about the Soviet Union, just the
general point that a very large number of people don't get to make a
choice about where they live or how they work. Most people, in
practice,  not being prepared, or able, to risk execution, or starve, or
even drop  whatever they have and run for the border - that is if we'll
let them over the border.


All drifting very off-topic for cypherpunks.




From jamesd at echeque.com  Thu Oct 25 14:03:20 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 14:03:20 -0700
Subject: Market Competition for Security Measures
In-Reply-To: 
References: <1047397B-C8A0-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <3BD81BA8.23750.13C025B@localhost>


     --
On 25 Oct 2001, at 0:00, Sampo Syreeni wrote:
> A bare one objection to comprehensive market based 
> security: a market needs private property, and other civil 
> rights, in order to function efficiently, as predicted. 
> Protection is what guarantees those rights. If you place 
> protection on the market, you no longer have a guarantee 
> that the market itself can function as originally intended.

And if we place food on the market, we no longer have a 
guarantee that anyone will be able to eat  :-)

Observer that in the real world, food and clothing is 
provided by the market, and no one goes hungry or naked, but 
school and protection is provided by the government, which 
theoretically spends the same money protecting and educating 
the poor as the rich, and many people are not educated or 
protected.

In America today many do not get an education.  In North 
Korea today many do not get to eat.  That is because in 
America, the state guarantees education, in North Korea, it 
guarantees food.   If the state guaranteed sand for all in
the sahara, there would soon be sand shortage. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     4fljdbeLLWox+IazJXkc65l3GbGVxFV5SIJVIO5l
     4L7J488MYZF8SAQaJj89qjSWZfvLtOyMr+SHwugf4




From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org  Thu Oct 25 11:07:09 2001
From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 14:07:09 -0400
Subject: web.archive.org Internet archive to open ---google + archeology
References: 
Message-ID: <3BD854CD.7000401@dragonsweb.org>


Tolan Blundell wrote:

> Thats fine, I've got a 100TB server in my attic you can use if you want?
> ;)


Sure. As long as you pay the shipping. :-)

jbdigriz






From declan at well.com  Thu Oct 25 11:30:41 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 14:30:41 -0400
Subject: Fwd: Press Release: Leading Consumer Watchdogs Call Windows XP
  "Illegal Extension of Microsoft Monopoly", Urge Strong Remedy in
  Antitrust Case 
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20011025143036.02577be0@mail.well.com>


>X-Sender: mcooper at mail.essential.org
>X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
>Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 12:22:58 -0400
>To: declan at well.com
>From: Mark Cooper 
>Subject: Press Release: Leading Consumer Watchdogs Call Windows XP
>   "Illegal Extension of Microsoft Monopoly", Urge Strong Remedy in
>   Antitrust Case
>
>
>To:     Declan McCullagh
>         Washington Correspondent
>         Wired News
>
>
>CONSUMER FEDERATION OF AMERICA
>CONSUMERS UNION
>
>Leading Consumer Watchdogs Call Windows XP "Illegal Extension of Microsoft 
>Monopoly", Urge Strong Remedy in Antitrust Case
>For Release
>12:15 p.m., EDT
>Thursday, October 25, 2001
>
>Contact
>Mark Cooper of CFA at 301/807-1623
>Chris Murray of CU at 202/462-6262
>
>
>(Washington, D.C., Thursday, Oct. 25, 2001)-Responding to the official 
>launch of Windows XP, two of the nation's leading consumer organizations 
>today reiterated their concerns about the anticompetitive and 
>anti-consumer aspects of Microsoft's new bundle of software and Internet 
>services. The groups concluded that it is an illegal extension of the 
>company's illegal monopoly, and which will cause significant harm to both 
>the nation's consumers and non-Microsoft-affiliated software firms and 
>Internet service vendors.
>Christopher Murray, CU's Internet and Telecommunications Counsel, said, 
>"We want to be clear that in contesting Microsoft's latest product we are 
>not taking an 'anti-innovation' position. It is precisely because we are 
>pro-innovation that we are disappointed with the way in which Microsoft is 
>telling users, 'If you want one-click convenience, we'll give it to you, 
>but only to our affiliates and commercial partners. Forget about one-click 
>convenience anywhere outside of our walled garden.'
>Mark Cooper, Director of Research for CFA, added, "The real issue with XP 
>is whether innovation will be driven by a vigorous competitive process or 
>managed by a single, dominant firm that can choose, at any moment and with 
>a vast and ever-expanding store of anti-competitive tactics, to protect 
>and promote its interest at the expense of consumers."
>
>The groups, following up on a report they released last month that 
>describes in detail continuing Microsoft anti-competitive practices, cited 
>the following central objections to Windows XP:
>
>   * Passport, Microsoft's payment and ID authentication service, should 
> not be bundled with XP. Users should have a choice of authentication 
> systems and Microsoft should provide customer support without users 
> having to sign up for a Passport;
>
>   * Microsoft should provide an "open" alternative to the world of 
> Microsoft-affiliated commercial partners. Users should be able to easily 
> reconfigure one-click features on Internet Explorer 6 (the browser 
> bundled with XP) such as "My Music," and "My Photos," to point to 
> non-Microsoft services;
>
>   * Windows Media Player, the music and video player bundled with XP, 
> should provide support for high-bitrate MP3 music, rather than eschewing 
> that format in favor of Microsoft's proprietary "Windows Media Audio" 
> format; and
>
>   * "pre-certification" of all software drivers, while helpful to 
> maintain platform stability, has enormous potential for anti-competitive abuse.
>
>Cooper concluded, "We are heartened to learn of the apparent decision by 
>some state prosecutors to hire a hard-nosed lawyer during settlement 
>talks. State and federal prosecutors need to vigorously pursue a strong 
>remedy to stop current and prevent future anti-competitive behavior. Any 
>remedy sanctioned by the courts needs to be closely monitored, and 
>Microsoft should be substantially penalized if it fails to comply, either 
>financially or even, as a last step measure, break up of the company."
>
>The Consumer Federation of America is the nation's largest consumer 
>advocacy group, composed of two hundred and eighty state and local 
>affiliates representing consumer, senior, citizen, low-income, labor, 
>farm, public power and cooperative organizations, with more than fifty 
>million individual members. CFA is online at http://www.consumerfed.org/.
>
>Consumers Union, publisher of Consumer Reports, is an independent, 
>nonprofit testing and information organization serving only consumers. CU 
>is comprehensive source for unbiased advice about products and services, 
>personal finance, health and nutrition, and other consumer concerns. Since 
>1936, CU's mission has been to test products, inform the public, and 
>protect consumers. CU's income is derived solely from the sale of Consumer 
>Reports and its other services, and from noncommercial contributions, 
>grants, and fees. CU is online at http://www.consumersunion.org/.
>
># 30 #




From declan at well.com  Thu Oct 25 11:31:42 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 14:31:42 -0400
Subject: Senate approves USA Act, sends to Bush, Ashcroft vows "new era"
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20011025143125.02570bf0@mail.well.com>


>Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 14:30:04 -0400
>To: politech at politechbot.com
>From: Declan McCullagh 
>Subject: Senate approves USA Act, sends to Bush, Ashcroft vows "new era"
>
>The Senate just approved the USA Act by a 98-1 vote. Sen. Feingold was the 
>lone dissenter. Since the House has already voted for the bill, now it 
>goes to President Bush for his signature. Attorney General Ashcroft has 
>said that Bush will sign it tomorrow.
>
>Ashcroft said today, according to a speech attached below:
>>The hour that it becomes law, I will issue guidance to each of our 94 
>>U.S. Attorney's Offices and 56 FBI field offices directing them to begin 
>>immediately implementing this sweeping legislation.  I will issue 
>>directives requiring law enforcement to make use of new powers in 
>>intelligence gathering, criminal procedure and immigration violations.  A 
>>new era in America's fight against terrorism, made tragically necessary 
>>by the attacks of September 11, is about to begin.
>
>Text of USA Act v3.0 (final):
>http://www.politechbot.com/docs/usa.act.final.102401.html
>House debate over USA Act:
>http://www.politechbot.com/docs/usa.act.debate.102401.html
>How your House member voted:
>http://clerkweb.house.gov/cgi-bin/vote.exe?year=2001&rollnumber=398
>Feingold's lonely privacy fight:
>http://www.politechbot.com/p-02645.html
>Background:
>http://www.politechbot.com/p-02707.html
>http://www.wartimeliberty.com/search.pl?topic=legislation
>President Bush's statement that he looks forward to signing the bill:
>http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/10/20011024-4.html
>
>-Declan
>
>*********
>
>Attorney General John Ashcroft
>Prepared Remarks for the US Mayors Conference
>October 25, 2001
>
>         For more than two hundred years, Attorneys General have called on 
> the men and women of justice to be faithful stewards of the law.  Rarely 
> in history has an Attorney General asked  America's prosecutors and law 
> enforcement officers to do what they are asked to do today:  to be both 
> defenders of justice and defenders of the people; to devote their talents 
> and energies to the urgent task of saving lives ahead of losing cases.
>
>         On September 11, the wheel of history turned and the world will 
> never be the same.  A turning point was reached, as well, in the 
> administration of justice.  The fight against terrorism is now the first 
> and overriding priority of the Department of Justice.  But our war 
> against terrorism is not merely or primarily a criminal justice endeavor 
> __ our battle is the defense of our nation and its citizens.
>
>         The men and women of justice and law enforcement are called on to 
> combat a terrorist threat that is both immediate and vast; a threat that 
> resides here, at home, but whose supporters, patrons and sympathizers 
> form a multinational network of evil.
>
>         The attacks of September 11 were acts of terrorism against 
> America orchestrated and carried out by individuals living within our 
> borders.  Today's terrorists enjoy the benefits of our free society even 
> as they commit themselves to our destruction.  They live in our 
> communities __ plotting, planning and waiting to kill Americans 
> again.  They have crossed the Rubicon of terror with the use of 
> biological agents.  We cannot explicitly link the recent terrorist 
> attacks to the September 11 hijackers. Yet, terrorists - people who were 
> either involved with, associated with or are seeking to take advantage of 
> the September 11 attacks - are now poisoning our communities with Anthrax.
>
>         Forty years ago, another Attorney General was confronted with a 
> different enemy within our borders.  Robert F. Kennedy came to the 
> Department of Justice at a time when organized crime was threatening the 
> very foundations of the republic. Mobsters controlled one of the nation's 
> largest labor unions.  Racketeers murdered, bribed and extorted with 
> impunity in many of the nation's largest cities.
>
>         Then, as now, the enemy that America faced was described bluntly 
> - and correctly - as a conspiracy of evil.  Then, as now, the enemy was 
> well_financed, expertly organized and international in scope.  Then, as 
> now, its operations were hidden under a code of deadly silence.
>
>         As Attorney General, Robert Kennedy launched an extraordinary 
> campaign against organized crime.  Under his leadership, the mission and 
> momentum of the Department of Justice were directed toward one 
> overarching goal:  to identify, disrupt and dismantle the organized_crime 
> enemy within.  A new spirit of cooperation was forged, both among federal 
> agencies and between state and federal law enforcement.   Prosecutors 
> were action oriented - pursuing cases rather than waiting for the cases 
> to come to them.  Investigators focused on function, not form - they 
> focused on doing what was necessary to get the job done rather than what 
> was dictated by the organizational chart.
>
>         Attorney General Kennedy made no apologies for using all of the 
> available resources in the law to disrupt and dismantle organized crime 
> networks.  Very often, prosecutors were aggressive, using obscure 
> statutes to arrest and detain suspected mobsters.  One racketeer and his 
> father were indicted for lying on a federal home loan application.  A 
> former gunman for the Capone mob was brought to court on a violation of 
> the Migratory Bird Act.  Agents found 563 game birds in his freezer __ a 
> mere 539 birds over the limit.
>
>         There are obvious differences, of course, between the network of 
> organized crime America faced in 1961 and the network of terror we face 
> today.  Today, many more innocent lives have been lost.  Many more 
> innocent lives continue to be threatened.  But these differences serve 
> only to call us more urgently to action.
>
>         The American people face a serious, immediate and ongoing threat 
> from terrorism.  At this moment, American service men and women are 
> risking their lives to battle the enemy overseas.  It falls to the men 
> and women of justice and law enforcement to engage terrorism at 
> home.  History's judgment will be harsh - and the people's judgment will 
> be sure - if we fail to use every available resource to prevent future 
> terrorist attacks.
>
>         Robert Kennedy's Justice Department, it is said, would arrest 
> mobsters for "spitting on the sidewalk" if it would help in the battle 
> against organized crime.  It has been and will be the policy of this 
> Department of Justice to use the same aggressive arrest and detention 
> tactics in the war on terror.
>
>         Let the terrorists among us be warned:  If you overstay your visa 
> - even by one day - we will arrest you.  If you violate a local law, you 
> will be put in jail and kept in custody as long as possible.  We will use 
> every available statute.  We will seek every prosecutorial advantage.  We 
> will use all our weapons within the law and under the Constitution to 
> protect life and enhance security for America.
>
>         In the war on terror, this Department of Justice will arrest and 
> detain any suspected terrorist who has violated the law.  Our single 
> objective is to prevent terrorist attacks by taking suspected terrorists 
> off the street.  If suspects are found not to have links to terrorism or 
> not to have violated the law, they are released.  But terrorists who are 
> in violation of the law will be convicted, in some cases deported, and in 
> all cases prevented from doing further harm to Americans.
>
>         Within days of the September 11 attacks, we launched this 
> anti_terrorism offensive to prevent new attacks on our homeland.  To 
> date, our anti_terrorism offensive has arrested or detained nearly 1,000 
> individuals as part of the September 11 terrorism investigation.  Those 
> who violated the law remain in custody.  Taking suspected terrorists in 
> violation of the law off the streets and keeping them locked up is our 
> clear strategy to prevent terrorism within our borders.
>
>         Today, the Department of Justice is positioned to launch a new 
> offensive against terrorism.   Due to extraordinary bi_partisan and 
> bi_cameral cooperation in the Congress, law enforcement will have new 
> weapons in the war on terrorism.  Yesterday, by an overwhelming margin, 
> the House passed the Anti_terrorism Act of 2001.  Hours from now, the 
> Senate is poised to follow suit.
>
>         The president is expected to sign this legislation on 
> Friday.  The hour that it becomes law, I will issue guidance to each of 
> our 94 U.S. Attorney's Offices and 56 FBI field offices directing them to 
> begin immediately implementing this sweeping legislation.  I will issue 
> directives requiring law enforcement to make use of new powers in 
> intelligence gathering, criminal procedure and immigration violations.  A 
> new era in America's fight against terrorism, made tragically necessary 
> by the attacks of September 11, is about to begin.
>
>         The legislation embodies two over_arching principles:
>
>         The first principle is airtight surveillance of terrorists.
>
>         Upon the president's signature,  I will direct investigators and 
> prosecutors to begin immediately seeking court orders to intercept 
> communications related to an expanded list of crimes under the 
> legislation.  Communications regarding terrorist offenses such as the use 
> of biological or chemical agents, financing acts of terrorism or 
> materially supporting terrorism will be subject to interception by law 
> enforcement.
>         Agents will be directed to take advantage of new, technologically 
> neutral standards for intelligence gathering.  So_called "roving" 
> wiretaps, that allow taps of multiple phones a suspect may use, are being 
> added as important as an important weapon in our war against terror.
>
>         Investigators will be directed to pursue aggressively terrorists 
> on the internet.   New authority in the legislation permits the use of 
> devices that capture senders and receivers addresses associated with 
> communications on the internet.
>
>         Law enforcement will begin immediately to seek search warrants to 
> obtain unopened voice_mail stored on a computer __ just as they 
> traditionally have used search warrants to obtain unopened email.  They 
> will also begin to use new subpoena power to obtain payment information 
> such as credit card or bank account numbers of suspected terrorists on 
> the internet.
>
>         The second principle enshrined in the legislation is speed in 
> tracking down and intercepting terrorists. As soon as possible, law 
> enforcement will begin to employ new tools that ease administrative 
> burdens and delays in apprehending terrorists.
>
>         Investigators are now able to use a single court order to trace a 
> communication even when it travels outside the judicial district in which 
> the order was issued.  The scope of search warrants for unopened e_mail 
> and other evidence is now also nationwide.
>
>
>         The new tools for law enforcement in the war against terrorism 
> are the products of hundreds of hours of consultation and careful 
> consideration by the administration, members of Congress, and state and 
> local officials.  They are careful, balanced, and long overdue 
> improvements in our capacity to prevent terrorism.
>
>         The federal government cannot fight this reign of terror 
> alone.  Every American must help us defend our nation against this 
> enemy.  Every state, every county, every municipality must join together 
> to form a common defense against terrorism.
>         The law enforcement campaign that will commence in earnest when 
> the legislation is signed into law will be many years in duration.  Some 
> will ask whether a civilized nation - a nation of law and not of men - 
> can use the law to defend itself from barbarians and remain 
> civilized.  Our answer, unequivocally, is "yes."  Yes, we will defend 
> civilization.  And yes, we will preserve the rule of law because it makes 
> us civilized.
>
>         The men and women of justice and law enforcement have been asked 
> to shoulder a great burden for the safety and security of the American 
> people.  We will, as we have in the past, never waiver in our faith and 
> loyalty to the Constitution and never tire in our defense of the rights 
> it enshrines.
>
>         Years after he left the office of Attorney General, an observer 
> of Robert Kennedy wrote that RFK brought these assets to his successful 
> campaign against organized crime:
>         *A constructive anger.
>*An intimate knowledge of his subject.
>*A talented team of prosecutors.
>*And, finally, a partner in the White House.
>
>         Today, as we embark on this campaign against terrorism, we are 
> blessed with a similar set of advantages.  Our anger, too, is 
> constructive.  Our knowledge is growing.  Our team is talented.  And our 
> leadership in the White House is unparalleled.
>
>         George W. Bush has done more __ much more __ than declare war on 
> terrorism. George W. Bush is fighting a war on terrorism.  Under his 
> leadership, we have pledged ourselves to victory.
>
>         Terrorists live in the shadows, under the cover of darkness.  We 
> will shine the light of justice on them.  Americans alive today and yet 
> to be born and freedom_loving people everywhere will have new reason to 
> hope because our enemies now have new reason to fear.
>
>         Thank you.
>
>###




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Thu Oct 25 14:32:56 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 14:32:56 -0700
Subject: Where the torture never stops..{ *** WARNING *** top-posted
  }
Message-ID: <3BD88508.32B8AB4F@lsil.com>


Greg,

Welcome to America's "New Era." 

Goebels, Himmler and the rest of the team are reincarnated. 

Welcome back to meatspace Gentlemen, it's been far too long!

What organizations will be challenging the Constitutionality of at least
sections of the soon to be recent Gestapo Act?

Who has standing to challenge a law that has yet to be enforced?

Where are $ best placed to get results?

Don't get me wrong - I think we have to address the issues of terrorism
on multiple fronts but what I read about the USA PATRIOT stuff makes
leaving the coutry's name "USA" blatantly fraudulent. 

Truly nauseated,
Mike


Greg Broiles  wrote :
>At 01:04 PM 10/25/2001 -0700, Onin wal-a bin Hakkin wrote:
>
>>if you are incarcerated for a fucked up deed you shouldnt
>>expect to be put in the hilton. is this not a universal
>>idea and accepted?
>>jailprisontheklink is supposed to SUCK.
>>[...]
>>i ask you, am i a bad person for feeling this way?
>
>What you seem to be missing is that the approx 1000 people now being held 
>haven't been "incarcerated for a fucked up deed" - they're being held for 
>what's probably a spectrum of reasons, ranging from "found in an airport 
>with a one-way plane ticket, a boxcutter, and a forged passport on the 
>morning of 9/11" to "gave a cop too much attitude while having a 
>non-Western name". But we don't know who's being held, nor for how long, 
>nor what the reasons are, or the evidence which establishes that the 
>"reasons" have some relationship to reality.
>
>We have a special process for deciding who's done fucked up deeds and thus 
>deserving of punishment, and it's called a trial.
>
>After these people have had one, then we can argue about what ought to 
>happen to them. Until then - and/or at least until the evidence against 
>these people has been made public and subjected to scrutiny - we don't know 
>whether these people are Mother Teresa or Satan himself or somewhere in 
>between.
>
>If we're going to start beating and torturing and killing people pretrial 
>(paying special attention to foreigners who may not fully agree with our 
>culture or values), exactly how is the ruling regime in the US different 
>from the ruling regime in Afghanistan? The only aspect left that I can see 
>that's different would be a nominally secular vs religious basis, but I 
>don't trust Ashcroft to respect that for long.
>
>Pretrial detention is not supposed to suck, it's supposed to be minimally 
>burdensome, to the extent that's compatible with making sure people show up 
>for trial, don't commit further crimes, and don't cost an exorbitant amount 
>of staff attention.
>
>(* This isn't meant as a claim that what we had prior to 9/11 in terms of 
>trials, pretrial detention, or any of the other criminal procedure features 
>was what it's advertised to be, or that it was compatible with the 
>Constitution - but I still regard the abandonment of even the pretense of 
>complying with the Constitution as a significant step towards some very 
>serious trouble.)
>
>
>--
>Greg Broiles
>gbroiles at well.com
>"We have found and closed the thing you watch us with." -- New Delhi street kids




From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Thu Oct 25 14:44:53 2001
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 14:44:53 -0700
Subject: Need help hacking /root/pwd to constitution
Message-ID: 


	take me to UR leader, i need his 
	permission 2 ask the list a question

	need password in order to own/root
	constitution so i can slip in 
	/bin/laden/findme.pl

	if U can do this 4 me it would B 3l33t

	any suggestions?




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Thu Oct 25 14:57:07 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 14:57:07 -0700
Subject: Where The Torture Never Stops...
Message-ID: 


"Onin wal-a bin Hakkin" wrote:

> but in all candor, dont ya think
> that if a guy is there who SHOULDNT
> be there, he wouldnt be there
> after a decent timeframe of investigation?

If you were innocent of any crime and were thrown in the slammer with bad
people and given no opportunity to contact friends or lawyers, what would
you consider "a decent timeframe of investigation" before they cut you
loose?  If/when they did cut you loose would you say, "Hey, no hard feeling,
I know you have a job to do," or would you seek some sort of compensation?


 S a n d y




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Thu Oct 25 14:57:08 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 14:57:08 -0700
Subject: Need help hacking /root/pwd to constitution
Message-ID: 


A. Melon wrote:

> 	any suggestions?

Yes, take a remedial reading course and then read Flesch's WRITING PLAIN
ENGLISH.


 S a n d y

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com]On
> Behalf Of A. Melon
> Sent: 25 October, 2001 14:45
> To: cypherpunks at lne.com
> Subject: Need help hacking /root/pwd to constitution
>
>
> 	take me to UR leader, i need his
> 	permission 2 ask the list a question
>
> 	need password in order to own/root
> 	constitution so i can slip in
> 	/bin/laden/findme.pl
>
> 	if U can do this 4 me it would B 3l33t
>
> 	any suggestions?




From mati99 at interklub.pl  Thu Oct 25 06:13:48 2001
From: mati99 at interklub.pl (Mateusz Ziolek)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 15:13:48 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Unscubscribe ATM
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 






From hjkeller at gmx.net  Thu Oct 25 06:17:41 2001
From: hjkeller at gmx.net (Heinz-Juergen 'Tom' Keller)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 15:17:41 +0200
Subject: FINALLY! we can buy Staria
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20011025001742.03aa6ec0@idiom.com>; from Bill Stewart on Thu, Oct 25, 2001 at 12:35:19AM -0700
References: <3BD77393.F1F031C@acmenet.net> <001801c15ce3$70a8d950$ea3a080a@vaio> <20011025002338.680.qmail@sidereal.kz> <3BD7645B.D0EC8DFB@acmenet.net> <20011025013134.17929.qmail@sidereal.kz> <3BD77393.F1F031C@acmenet.net> <20011025021458.31897.qmail@sidereal.kz> <5.0.2.1.1.20011025001742.03aa6ec0@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <20011025151741.A18234@alien.lummerland.loc>


On Thu, Oct 25, 2001 at 12:35:19AM -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
> At 02:14 AM 10/25/2001 +0000, Dr. Evil wrote:
> >Right, exactly.  When Starium was first announced, people were excited
> >because it sounded like we were going to get industrial-strength stuff
> >at consumer prices.  That isn't reality, and now they are going to
> >sell industrial-strength stuff at industrial prices.  There's no way a
> >complicated all-digital public key crypto device can compete on price
> >with made-in-China analog scramblers, which are basically toys.
 
http://www.siliconvalley.com/docs/news/svfront/054988.htm

-- 
We are the Copyright Police.  Come out with your hands up.
(Cut-n-paste is a circumvention device.)
Mark W. Schumann asr




From declan at well.com  Thu Oct 25 12:22:05 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 15:22:05 -0400
Subject: The Cost of Oil
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011025111434.039607f0@pop3.lvcm.com>; from
  schear@lvcm.com on Thu, Oct 25, 2001 at 11:15:56AM -0700
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011025111434.039607f0@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: <20011025152205.A12287@cluebot.com>


Though the article was somewhat silly, or partisan, or both, in places.
Excerpt:

>The Republicans oppose it as they oppose all taxes, especially ones
>that could harm the key industries--and important political
>contributors.

Republicans opposing "all taxes?" Right. Whatever.

-Declan


On Thu, Oct 25, 2001 at 11:15:56AM -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
> [Forbes catches up to cypherpunks]
> 
> Americans are paying a bigger price than they know for cheap gas.
> Charles Dubow
> 
> http://www.forbes.com/2001/10/22/1022oilcosts.html




From ashley.pearce at gartner.com  Thu Oct 25 15:30:32 2001
From: ashley.pearce at gartner.com (ashley.pearce at gartner.com)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 15:30:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Unplug & Profit:  Disney, BMW, & UPS Share WLAN Successes At Gartner Summit
Message-ID: 

*********************************************************************
NOVEMBER 9:  THE LAST DAY TO REGISTER FOR:

Wireless LAN Summit
Unplugged Access to Profitability
November 14-16, 2001
Boston, Massachusetts
Click on to http://www.gartnerinfo.com/g.cgi/1550783/62/us/wlan

Your final chance in 2001 to explore extraordinary WLAN profit opportunities with 
Gartner analysts
*********************************************************************

PRIORITY CODE: RA04F

Dear Joe Cypherpunk:

In the tech sector, where good news is in short supply right now, the 2002 outlook for the 
Wireless LAN space is extraordinarily bright.  

So seize this final chance to be part of the resurgence in profits and productivity by 
attending GARTNER'S WIRELESS LAN SUMMIT NOVEMBER 14-16 IN BOSTON.  
To register immediately, go to http://www.gartnerinfo.com/g2.cgi/1550783/62/us/wlan.

The news about this lucrative, growing market is compelling:
* WLAN equipment vendors and chip manufacturers are making money and 
growing while the rest of the networking industry struggles through a recession.
* Disney, UPS, BMW and other top companies are achieving remarkable ROI and 
productivity savings with WLANs.
* Wireless technology is getting faster, cheaper, easier and more secure all the 
time.

Still, as we've all learned, real profitability comes from sound decision-making.  And 
that's where Gartner analysts give you the edge. 
*Gartner's WLAN Summit is the only vendor-neutral WLAN conference being 
offered today – which means it's the only place you can get an objective appraisal 
of what's really going on with WLAN technology and what it means for your 
business.
* At the Summit, Gartner clients can book their own one-on-one half-hour 
counseling session with one of our analysts.  Get personalized, specific answers 
to your most pressing concerns.
* Case studies from key executives at UPS, Disney, BMW, and other 
companies give you a firsthand look at what it really takes to get unplugged.
* A special keynote session presented by Allan Scott from Wireless Ethernet 
Compatibility Alliance (WECA).
* You'll walk away with an actionable plan for setting up your own WLAN.
* You'll achieve significant financial savings based on the pragmatic advice 
and suggestions of Gartner's WLAN analysts.

END 2001 ON A HIGH NOTE:  LEARN WHAT YOU NEED TO PROFIT IN 2002
All major WLAN issues will be covered including:
* ROI:   Discover the real financial savings and improved productivity you can 
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* Security:  What it takes to manage and control your WLAN – especially for 
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* Traffic Demands:  How to optimize traffic on your enterprise network
* Technology:  The verdict on Bluetooth, 802.11, 3G and WLAN application 
infrastructure.

DISCOVER WHY IT PAYS TO SEND A TEAM  
We are offering a special team discount– register four colleagues from the same company 
with payment at the same time, and register a fifth for free.  Go to 
http://www.gartnerinfo.com/g3.cgi/1550783/62/us/wlan for details.

FORGE POWERFUL STRATEGIC RELATIONSHIPS WITH WLAN PROVIDERS
No one goes it alone in the WLAN marketplace – and this Gartner event is the place to 
build the business relationships with colleagues in complementary fields – including 
content owners & service providers, equipment vendors, network operators, location 
owners and technical experts.      
 
LAST CHANCE TO ACCESS GARTNER'S WLAN EXPERTISE IN 2001
Now is the pivotal time to get up to speed on WLANs so that you can quickly formulate 
and deploy plans for 2002.  So register for this important event RIGHT NOW while 
you're viewing this e-mail at http://www.gartnerinfo.com/g4.cgi/1550783/62/us/wlan.
Or call Ashley Pearce at 1-800-778-1997 or 1-203-316-6757.  Be sure to mention your
priority code RA04F when you contact us.

Also, be sure to take advantage of late-breaking rate reductions that the Sheraton Boston 
Hotel is now offering all Gartner WLAN Summit participants.

We look forward to meeting you in Boston. 

Sincerely,

John Girard
Conference Chair

*********************************************************************
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From pcapelli at nsec.net  Thu Oct 25 12:45:23 2001
From: pcapelli at nsec.net (Peter Capelli)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 15:45:23 -0400
Subject: 'Privacy Council' in defense of M$
Message-ID: <007501c15d8d$965354a0$695f1b09@raleigh.ibm.com>


http://www.computerworld.com/storyba/0,4125,NAV47_STO65026,00.html

This guy (Ponemon) needs a basic math lesson ...

...
Ponemon criticized the federal government for not doing enough to ensure the
FTC could enforce privacy infractions. Recent increases in the FTC's budget
aren't enough, he said, mocking the government's statement that it had
boosted the agency's budget by 50%.

"If you start at zero, 50% is only 50 cents," Ponemon said.
...


Pete Capelli    pcapelli at nsec.net
http://www.capelli.org  PGP Key ID:0x829263B6
"Those who would give up essential liberty for temporary safety deserve
neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin, 1759




From pcmontecucchi at compuserve.com  Thu Oct 25 11:57:10 2001
From: pcmontecucchi at compuserve.com (Pier Carlo Montecucchi)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 15:57:10 -0300
Subject: The new Internet archive
Message-ID: <017e01c15d86$fd8139f0$12b9c0d8@seminole>


Do you know the URL address of this new Internet archive?

Pier Carlo

Email: pcmontecucchi at compuserve.com

"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in
having new eyes " (Marcel Proust)







----- Original Message -----
From: "Subcommander Bob" 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 11:45 AM
Subject: web.archive.org Internet archive to open ---google + archeology


>
> Hey Mitch  --Another part of your permenant record
>
> http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-102501archive.story
> By JOSEPH MENN, Times Staff Writer
>
> SAN FRANCISCO -- An Internet archive containing more text than any
> library in history will open its digital doors today, giving researchers
> and the public access to just about everything posted on the World Wide
> Web over the last five years.
>
> The free archive, created by a San Francisco computer entrepreneur named
> Brewster Kahle, allows academics to conduct the electronic equivalent of
> archeological digs, rooting through reams of material illustrating the
> evolution of the Web and its role in American society.
>
> The Internet Archive, informally called the Wayback Machine, holds more
> than 10 billion Web pages dating to 1996, including millions that had
> vanished as dot-coms collapsed, big companies scaled back or updated
> their offerings, and hobbyist Webmasters lost interest.
>
> Researchers and academics have likened Kahle to a modern-day Andrew
> Carnegie, the steel baron who endowed many of the nation's finest
> libraries.
>
> "Libraries are dedicated to collecting and making available the
> permanent historical record," said Diane Kresh, the Library of Congress'
> director for public service collections. She said trolling the Net is as
> significant as gathering books or periodicals.
>
> Want to see what the Heaven's Gate cult page looked like before the
> group's mass suicide? There it is. Want to see how Yahoo's pages have
> changed since 1996? Step this way. Pages published by everyone from
> Fortune 500 companies to renegade porn merchants are stashed in the
> Internet Archive.
>
> The five-year, multimillion-dollar project has amassed five times as
> much text as the Library of Congress, which helped fund the archive
> along with Compaq Computer Corp., the National Science Foundation and
> the Smithsonian Institution. The more-than 100 terabytes of data are
> housed on 300 modified Hewlett-Packard desktop computers in a basement
> at San Francisco's Presidio.
>
> The effort to record Internet history has been directed and largely
> financed by Kahle, a 41-year-old former supercomputer technologist who
> sold one Web firm to America Online and another to Amazon.com.
>
> "The opportunity of our time is to offer universal access to all of
> human knowledge," Kahle said Wednesday from his office in the Presidio,
> a decommissioned military base near the Golden Gate Bridge. "We're at a
> unique point in time to offer universal access to anyone who walks into
> a library in Uganda."
>
> The Internet Archive uses automated "bots" to scour the Web. They
> capture sites and return what they find to the computers at the
> Presidio. The archive updates every two months. Once captured, the sites
> are organized chronologically. Users type in a Web address, and the
> archive displays versions of that site since 1996.
>
> Sites that require passwords or block bots are not captured. And if
> someone objects to their site being copied, the archive removes it.
>
> As smaller, less accessible versions of the archive were being compiled,
> Kahle's 30 staffers got a few complaints. After the staff explained that
> it wasn't personal, that they were copying everyone's sites, the vast
> majority decided they didn't mind, Kahle said.
>
> "Most people say, 'You're crazy, but go for it,' " Kahle said. "People
> want to be part of history."
>
> Candidates to use the service, at web.archive.org, include academics,
> journalists and researchers.
>
> "It will allow researchers to study the evolution of the Web in a way
> that is unprecedented," said research scientist Ed Chi of the Xerox Palo
> Alto Research Center. He said Xerox PARC scientists already are working
> on new user interfaces based on what the archive showed them about how
> people looked for information.
>
> Early on, "we suspect people will go look for their own pages and see if
> they can get copies of things that they've lost," Kahle said. "We're not
> exactly sure how this is going to be used. We're looking forward to
> being surprised."
>
> Like many Internet pioneers, however, Kahle faces unfamiliar risks along
> with the opportunities. The Internet Archive may be a massive violation
> of copyright law.
>
> "Brewster is taking an extraordinarily personal risk, because this is
> potentially a criminal offense," said Lawrence Lessig, an expert on
> intellectual property in cyberspace at Stanford University.
>
> Kahle doesn't anticipate getting sued, let alone serving jail time. His
> plan is to post whatever he can--and keep the archive growing.
>
> "We're not here to test laws," Kahle said. "We're trying to build a
> world we want to live in. The world without a library is a world without
> a memory, and that would be tragic."
>
> The legal questions may take years to resolve, Kahle and Lessig said.
>
> Consider the Industry Standard. At least some of that defunct magazine's
> articles are back online through Kahle's archive. But shareholder IDG
> paid more than $1 million for the Standard's assets, including rights to
> those stories. An IDG spokeswoman declined to say whether the company
> would ask the archive to drop the articles.
>
> Kahle said he isn't worrying about the hypotheticals. He's more excited
> about finding early www.whitehouse.gov pages from 1996 that dealt with
> airport safety and bioterrorism.
>
> Even better is what's to come.
>
> "The woman who is going to be elected president in 2024 is in high
> school now, and I bet she has a home page," Kahle said. "We have the
> future president's home page!"




From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Oct 25 14:50:33 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 16:50:33 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: First, brand all the children
In-Reply-To: <3BD81184.74B45607@acmenet.net>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, Steve Furlong wrote:

> Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> > ...When the US falls
> ...
> > The key point to a bloodless fall will be the military saying 'I
> > think we'll sit this one out, thank you very much.'
> 
> And a major key to that is militarily useful weaponry in the hands of
> the citizens.

I'm not so sure. It certainly wasn't a major factor in the fall of the
CCCP. I believe it will be a political/social issue that will transcend
'party lines'.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Oct 25 14:54:29 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 16:54:29 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Why Plan-9?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, Sunder wrote:

> 
> On Sun, 21 Oct 2001, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> > Transitive means that A mounts B, C mounts A and gets B free. Plan 9 does
> > this, managed by a set of authorization layers for fine control, native.
> 
> This could be bad.  Say B doesn't want to allow access to C for its file
> systems. Then what?  Any mechanisms to prevent A from resharing it?  It's
> also bad depending on how it's implemented.

http://plan9.bell-labs.com


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Thu Oct 25 17:41:31 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 17:41:31 -0700
Subject: Dilbert Random Number Generator
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011025174005.02fec850@idiom.com>


Dilbert's been visiting the Trolls In Accounting,
who have been spitting all over his data.
Now he's on a tour, and the troll is showing him their random number generator.

http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/images/dilbert2001182781025.gif




From jya at pipeline.com  Thu Oct 25 18:03:08 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 18:03:08 -0700
Subject: Where The Torture Never Stops...
In-Reply-To: <200110252131.f9PLV3c27667@ns2.memec.com>
Message-ID: <200110252209.SAA29587@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>


Come on Onin, watch the numbers skyrocket after
Bush signs off on Ashcroft's wet dream. The US
has the most bloated "justice" industry in the world,
far bigger than any in history, and the spate of bills
appearing will fatten these pigs beyond anything
seen in the commie and fascist regimes. We are
seeing the militarization of the US homeland, following
the coup-pattern of a huge number of dipshit nations in
Latin America, Asia, Africa and dots in the oceans
which the US has armed and trained to attack the
citizenry.

Don't forget the US Joint Chiefs of Staff in the late 60s
was studying murdering US citizens, and blaming it on 
the Cubans, to justify an attack on Castro. Would today's
war criminals cook up a bin Laden version of Castrao? 
Yeah, they would if their economic interests were 
threatened.

Watch for increasing provocations at home and overseas.
Step by step ratcheting up the national security threat,
as Tim and others have predicted. With economic threats
being the glue that holds it together. The economic stimulus
package just passed is the clue to broadening participation
in the coup, again the same way corporations were enlisted to,
and in some case led, overthrow of legitimate governments 
all around the globe.

Watch for Americans who protest begin to disappear, in jail
and on the streets.

Watch for tales of torture to be leaked to scare the shit out
of those who think defending civil liberties carries no risk.

Will officials be shot in retaliation for official torture, rape 
and murder? Well, that's the Latin American model, and 
look who trained for that grim policy, what was it called, 

School of the Americas.

Watch for Kissinger to advocate anti-terrorism mayhem so 
he won't be tried as a war criminal.

Watch for Israel to leak more NSA intercepts of Arab
leaders through Seymour Hersh.

Watch for Woolsey to admit that spying on Amercians
by the intelligence agencies never stopped after the
Church Committee hearings, it just went blacker.

Watch the intelligence oversight committees get
investigated for negligence, excused by the anti-terrorism
fervor, then even deeper domestic spying be covertly 
authorized cloaked by the Ashcroft kind.

Watch for the intelligence agencies doing wet work at home,
with leaks of the deeds to sow fear, suspicion of neighbors 
and obedience.

Watch Disney's theme parks, Malls of America, be sacrificed 
to boost the hysteria, intelligence leads on the coming
slaughter deliberately withheld in the Franklin Roosevelt
model.

The US has trained two generations of Americans to do
all these things covertly and overtly, invested a big hunk
of the nation's wealth in a bloated military and intelligence
and justice regime and supporting industry providing 
lifelong employment for hundreds of thousands and
return on investments for ten times that. Will such a
vast, lucrative enterprise not do whatever it could to
perpetuate its existence by finding an endless supply
of enemies, most home grown for that very purpose?

The only question is are you part of it, and who here
does not benefit from this vile racket? If you have been
to college you are a beneficiary, if you are successful
you are a beneficiary, if you are not in jail you are
a beneficiary.

Excuse me for digging my foxhole deeper.



At 02:31 PM 10/25/01 -0700, you wrote:
>hm yes, you are correct. 
>he wasnt incarcerated.
>never mind that other part then.
>
>but in all candor, dont ya think 
>that if a guy is there who SHOULDNT
>be there, he wouldnt be there 
>after a decent timeframe of investigation?
>
>notwithstanding other manners of recent 
>injustices of justice, i.e., Mitnick et al,
>in this day and age, with '1000' under the
>microscope, doncha think odds are that 
>some of these guys woulda made it out 
>without incident? 
>holy shit what are the chances that the
>evidence shows they are complicit?!
>down to the last one of them!
>if you were in charge of the 1000 would 
>you take the chance at being just another 
>victim? or do you really go so far as to 
>give them the benefit of the doubt FULLY
>without seeing the information that 
>holds them in such a nice dark place to 
>begin with? i bet if you had the info, 
>you would keep them there too.
>i bet if the info was incriminating 
>enough, you would look the other way 
>as well when a little manhandling comes
>into play.
> 
>
>i dunno.




From tolan at citipages.net  Thu Oct 25 10:10:34 2001
From: tolan at citipages.net (Tolan Blundell)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 18:10:34 +0100
Subject: web.archive.org Internet archive to open ---google + archeology
In-Reply-To: <3BD83733.7080305@dragonsweb.org>
Message-ID: 


Thats fine, I've got a 100TB server in my attic you can use if you want?
;)
point taken though.

tolan.

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at ssz.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at ssz.com]On
Behalf Of James B. DiGriz
Sent: 25 October 2001 17:01
To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
Subject: CDR: Re: web.archive.org Internet archive to open ---google +
archeology


Subcommander Bob wrote:





> http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-102501archive.story
> By JOSEPH MENN, Times Staff Writer
> 
> SAN FRANCISCO -- An Internet archive containing more text than any
> library in history will open its digital doors today, giving researchers
> and the public access to just about everything posted on the World Wide
> Web over the last five years.
> 

Way cool. It needs to be mirrored, though. Single point of 
failure/distribution invites history being rewritten the way it always 
has been until now.

jbdigriz





From JackDean at webcommanders.com  Thu Oct 25 18:16:40 2001
From: JackDean at webcommanders.com (Jack Dean)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 18:16:40 -0700
Subject: A National I.D. Card? Yes; Run By Larry Ellison? No
Message-ID: 

http://www.techcentralstation.com/NewsDesk.asp?FormMode=MainTerminalArticles&ID=95

Thursday, October 25, 2001

A National I.D. Card? Yes;
Run By Larry Ellison? No

By: James K. Glassman, Host, Tech Central Station

Would you trust this man with a National I.D. System?
When I first heard that Larry Ellison, the CEO of Oracle Corp., had proposed
a national I.D. card to help fight terrorism, I thought it was a joke. Not
the I.D. card idea. But that Ellison was proposing it.

[...]

Dershowitz contends that the cards might actually increase freedoms. "Four
Arab-looking guys reading the Koran are much less suspicious if they have
the cards and can just slash them through card readers," he said.

It is the lack of an I.D. card, however, that makes the United States almost
unique among nations. "You do have a right to be left alone in the most
literal sense," says Nadine Strossen, president of the American Civil
Liberties Union.

"If you have an I.D. card," says former Rep. Tom Campbell (R-Calif.), now a
law professor at Stanford, "it is solely for the purpose of allowing the
government to compel you to produce it. This would essentially give the
government the power to demand that we show our papers. It is a very
dangerous thing."

Dangerous? Yes, there are dangers to a mandatory national I.D. card, but
there may be greater dangers without one. The fact is, to live in a society
as vulnerable as ours, we may have to give up something - but I disagree
that what's lost is freedom. Instead, it's privacy, and maybe not even that.

In an interview with SiliconValley.com, Ellison expressed this reality in
his typical over-the-top fashion, showing once again why he is the wrong guy
to be making the pitch. "This privacy you're concerned about is largely an
illusion. All you have to give up is your illusions, not your privacy."

The truth is that an I.D. card may force you to give up some of your
privacy - though probably no more than driver's licenses, Social Security
cards, credit cards and even electronic toll-readers like EasyPass force you
to give up now. But even if privacy is lost, the question is whether such an
exchange is worth the benefits? More and more, I believe that it is.

###




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From Ignacio.Lazaro at quierotv.com  Thu Oct 25 09:22:18 2001
From: Ignacio.Lazaro at quierotv.com (Ignacio.Lazaro at quierotv.com)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 18:22:18 +0200
Subject: Unscubscribe ATM
Message-ID: 





From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Thu Oct 25 09:22:54 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 18:22:54 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: [linux-elitists] W3C last call on XML Encryption... (fwd)
Message-ID: 


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 11:32:53 -0400
From: Dan York 
To: linux-elitists 
Subject: [linux-elitists] W3C last call on XML Encryption...

FYI, the W3C has issued a last call for comments on several
proposals related to XML encryption.  More info at:

  http://www.w3.org/Encryption/2001/

Since I know a good number of folks on this list are interested
in encryption and Internet communication, I thought I would pass
it along as it involves encrypting XML, much of which will no
doubt be passed across the Internet.

The specific documents are at:

  XML Encryption Requirements
     http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-encryption-req

     This document lists the design principles, scope, and requirements
     for the XML Encryption. It includes requirements as they relate to
     the encryption syntax, data model, format, cryptographic processing,
     and external requirements and coordination.

  XML Encryption Syntax and Processing
     http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlenc-core/

     This document specifies a process for encrypting data and
     representing the result in XML. The data may be arbitrary data
     (including an XML document), an XML element, or XML element
     content. The result of encrypting data is an XML Encryption element
     which contains or references the cipher data.

  Decryption Transform for XML Signature
     http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlenc-decrypt

     This document specifies the "decryption transform", which enables
     XML Signatures verification even if both signature and encryption
     operations are performed on an XML document.

Dan

-- 
Dan York, Director of Training, Network Server Solutions Group
Mitel Networks Corporation                  dan_york at mitel.com
Ph: +1-613-751-4401 Cell: +1-613-263-4312 Fax: +1-613-564-7739
150 Metcalfe Street, Suite 1500, Ottawa,ON K2P 1P1 Canada
http://www.e-smith.com/         http://www.mitel.com/sme/
_______________________________________________
linux-elitists
http://zgp.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-elitists




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Thu Oct 25 18:38:50 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 18:38:50 -0700
Subject: FINALLY! we can buy Staria
Message-ID: <3BD8BEAA.8AC99C2C@lsil.com>


"Neil Johnson"  wrote :
>
>> > What's this then?
>> >
>> > http://www.tactronix.com/s100.htm
>> >
>> >
>> > -MW-
>
>Looks like a nicely rendered computer image of the proposed device (somebody
>there is good with POV-Ray?).
>
>-Neil
>
Too expensive.




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Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 19:12:03 -0700
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From mmotyka at lsil.com  Thu Oct 25 19:35:28 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 19:35:28 -0700
Subject: Torture Never Stops..
Message-ID: <3BD8CBF0.F4BC78AA@lsil.com>


"nobody" wrote :
>
>Listen, its not a return to fascism.
>Not by any stretch, so unbunch your
>panties.
>
>unbunch(panties);
>
cranium.reboot( COLD_START | RESET_DEFAULTS ); yerself.

Some are scared, some are angry, some are manipulators. Instead of
valuing and protecting our freedoms, talking heads spewing fear blamed
the terrorist attacks on those freedoms and proceeded, 99 out of 100,
357 out of 423, to attack what they pledged to defend when they took
office. The weakness shown by our legislators over the past weeks is
more than fertile enough ground for fascism to take root and bloom. 

>Some Americans are tired of being
>stepped on.
>Me in particular.
>Its way different than the inferrence
>you infer. 
>I am sure that we agree on the same 
>stuff, we just dont agree on how to 
>get there.
>I would love to meet in the middle 
>someplace, as long as my beloved 
>fellow unblamed citizens remain free
>and unharmed in the process.
>
There is no middle. The Bill of Rights is not an arcane document no
matter what guild members would have us believe. It was written for
everyone to read. I see no differentiation between citizens and
residents.

>If a foreign guy ends up in a cell
>someplace because of some questionable 
>activities, like LYING about knowing
>one of these terror mongers, LYING
>about knowing particular details, 
>like having screwy immigration documents....
>that shit adds up. It may not MEAN the
>guy is guilty of something, but dang...
>its preventive medicine. If a guy happens
>to get waxed, then a guy happens to get 
>waxed. That happens in prison.
>It happens to innocent people in prison.
>It happens to guilty people in prison.
>It shouldnt happen but it does. Deal somehow
>with it.
>
Those who wrote the Bill of Rights attempted to provide the tools for
succeeding generations to deal with exactly those problems.  Only the
abandoning of the rule of law on the part of each of the three branches
of government can explain what I see. Those who have no respect for what
were and still are good basic principles of government and justice are a
threat to everyone's safety.

In all fairness the third branch has yet to be tested on the USA PATRIOT
CRAP but I don't expect much considering their past behavior.

>Anyways, I dont think this will effect
>mainstream Americans and the odd cypherpunk
>thrown in among them. Unless that cpunk
>happens to be Middle Eastern, and guilty
>of something previously determined to 
>be suspect. 
>
Somehow or other it seems that "intent of the law" is used to justify it
and the letter of the law is used to prosecute. The temporal separation
of cause and effect, like that of copulation and birth for animals,
seems to evade our collective ability to learn. Case in point : the war
on drugs. You're not critical enough of who determines what is worthy of
suspicion.

>But in the long run will we, considering 
>ourselves Freedom Advocates (believe it 
>or not, I consider myself one), hang ourselves 
>with the collective rope we inadvertently 
>meant to provide to our ropers?
>
Bet on it. The ropers are not all good actors. I haven't watch or
listened to a single one of them that I would share a dinner table or a
camp fire with. And I'm not sure I agree that WE are providing the rope
to the ropers. It seems rather that the ropers are taking the rope while
everyone else stands by without objection, blinded by tears, anger and
fear.

>My position:
>I am not willing to give up ANYTHING for my
>freedom...
>But then again, I dont have screwy 
>immigration documents that would cause anyone 
>to want to usurp my individual freedoms.
>
>I will not give up encryption, or privacy.
>
You sound very sure that you have them to give up.

>Ya know its weird, because I hear the Freedom
>folks say: "Oh yea, thats what -they- always say
>to you, 'if you have not done anything wrong
>then you have nothing to worry about'" and 
>now I feel thats not far from the truth, in
>a strange zenexistential way. Someone tell me 
>why thats a bad statement.
>
That sounds overly trusting of the motivations and loyalties of those
who you entrust with the power of life and death.

>I mean, if I HAVE done something wrong, I 
>should be afraid, right?
>
Assigning attributes of right and wrong is a personal matter. Fear comes
from the knowledge of risk. That is unless you are running one of those
old-time Christian plug-ins that has a default
~/.guilt-list-self-destruct

>Heres the message we should try to send
>with our words and our actions:
>
>Dont fuck up and try to kill Americans.
>Because we will fuck you in your ass with 
>a greased lightning tomahawk missile
>that will gut you and your camel, and 
>the 5 wives you both rode in on... along
>with those 15 little terrorists a year you
>keep pumping out, in your own words. 
>By the way, forget about sex for fun with those
>broads... apparently there is a mandate 
>to 'copulate to populate, not just to fornicate'.
>SNAP, after lookin at some of 'dat shit, I 
>would rather masturbate. No wonder they wear
>veils, dey breath must stank to High Heaven.
>
While I agree with operating from a position of strength, after that
you've lost it.

Demonizing the enemy is a standard phase in conflict. I guess that's
what it takes to convince oneself that it is OK to rip people into
little pieces and avoid the emotions that invariably go along with that.
A simple self-administered psychoanalgesic as it were.

In the footage of Afghanistan that I've seen everyone appears to be
pretty much human. 

>Unfortunately, the civilized world is 
>counting on us to hold shit together
>for financial stability. So we have to
>catch up the guys who have sorta fallen 
>behind and made a mess of things for us
>in a way. Smacks of New World Order, dont it?
>I dont like it either, but hey...
>
hmmm. Yes, the US does have more than a faint touch of megalomania.

>From a distance, this is al-Hatfields and 
>Wal-McCoys, and we(USA) are Sheriff Andy Taylor
>and Israel is Deputy Barney Fucking Fife,
>and he keeps shooting himself in the foot 
>every time we try to draw down on that
>stupid family feud that we now gotta clean 
>up after cuz the SAUDIS (or the REST of the
>arab contingent) cant TCOB, cuz they 
>dont wanna get their hands dirty just to 
>protect their status quo, tally ho, lets 
>get the Americans to do it.
>
Rambling crap. Somebody's been watching too much television. My vote is
for Ginger at night, Maryann in the morning and Jeannie for a nooner.

>Come on, say it... say what you feeeel man :)
>Dont blame the 'extremist right' of America
>for this clamping down on our beloved freedoms.
>
I blame weakness and opportunistic fascists-in-our-midst.

>now...
>Are you still free?
>Can you say what you want in this political climate?
>Could you ever?
>Does it matter?
>Are your papers in order?
>
Yawn.

Mike




From njohnsn at IowaTelecom.net  Thu Oct 25 17:36:14 2001
From: njohnsn at IowaTelecom.net (Neil Johnson)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 19:36:14 -0500
Subject: FINALLY! we can buy Staria
References: <20011024235428.B30386@cluebot.com> 
  
  <20011025004419.E30386@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <009f01c15db6$37ce9100$0100a8c0@mshome.net>


> > What's this then?
> >
> > http://www.tactronix.com/s100.htm
> >
> >
> > -MW-

Looks like a nicely rendered computer image of the proposed device (somebody
there is good with POV-Ray?).

-Neil




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Thu Oct 25 19:48:44 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 19:48:44 -0700
Subject: Senate approves USA Act, sends to Bush, Ashcroft vows "newera"
Message-ID: <3BD8CF0C.4D7CC185@lsil.com>


 
measl at mfn.org wrote :
>
>This has got to be the single scariest thing I have *ever* read from any
>government "official".  After reading this, I doubt that the "nuclear
>winter" comments that have been bandied about are going to be very far off
>their mark...
>
>It especially terrifying to note that this "speech" specifically targets
>"sympathizers" as well as actual terrorists.  
>
Even more disturbing are phrases like -

 "Investigators focused on function, not form - they 
  focused on doing what was necessary to get the job 
  done rather than what was dictated by the organizational 
  chart." 
  { like judges }

 "The first principle is airtight surveillance of terrorists."
  { obviously since we can't a priori know who is a terrorist
    and who is not we have to watch everyone. }

 "Communications regarding terrorist offenses such as the use 
  of biological or chemical agents, financing acts of terrorism
  or materially supporting terrorism will be subject to 
  interception by law enforcement."
  { sound like domestic echelon/keywords? is simple discussion
    or browsing enough to grab the attention of the 
    all-seeing eye? }
   
 "As soon as possible, law enforcement will begin to employ 
  new tools that ease administrative burdens and delays in
  apprehending terrorists."
  { we all know what the main burden is }

>J.A. Terranson
>sysadmin at mfn.org
>

I think an off-site backup of personal or "interesting" material is a
good idea.

Mike




From measl at mfn.org  Thu Oct 25 18:40:02 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 20:40:02 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [EMED-L] Airborne anthrax protection... (fwd)
Message-ID: 



interesting trivia for the biowar inclined :-)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 10:37:28 -0700
From: Tim Sturgill 
Reply-To: EMED-L -- a list for emergency medicine practitioners.
    
To: EMED-L at ITSSRV1.UCSF.EDU
Subject: Re: [EMED-L] Airborne anthrax protection...

>From JAMA. 1999;281:1735-1745. "Anthrax as a Biological Weapon: Medical
and Public Health Management"

@ http://jama.ama-assn.org/issues/v281n18/ffull/jst80027.html

"The nonflagellated vegetative cell is large (1-8 microns in length,
1-1.5 microns in breadth). Spore size is approximately 1 micron."

The germinated B anthracis is _larger_ than the _singular_ spore
(dormant) state (the gram positive rod). The spores are being milled to
the "spherical" and "singular" spore size, around 1 micron. The spores
unmilled may clump greatly (as reported for the Boca Raton letter) as
part of the process that was used to cause sporulation of the growing B
anthracis stock. Also they clump because of electrostatic charge (which
is now being reported to have been defeated).

My question is how do the TB and HEPA masks function with 1 micron size
particles that are  electrostatically neutral. I would assume that all
these masks were designed from the premise that small particles will
always have a electrostatic charges--since only artificially made
particles (requiring great technical skill) can be made
electrostatically neutral.

Is the filter a physical barrier at 0.3 microns? Or is this a physical +
electrostatic barrier at 0.3 microns (which means that the physical
component may be much greater)?

regards/t

_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/
Tim Sturgill MD FACEP FAAEM
logres at pobox.com
_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/

> -----Original Message-----
> From: EMED-L -- a list for emergency medicine practitioners.
> [mailto:EMED-L at ITSSRV1.UCSF.EDU] On Behalf Of James Li, M.D.
> Sent: October 25, 2001 04:26
> To: EMED-L at ITSSRV1.UCSF.EDU
> Subject: [EMED-L] Airborne anthrax protection...
>
>
> Anthrax spores are large, the smallest dimension around 0.7 microns
> (diameter) by 3.0 microns (length, but often much longer).
> "Spores may be larger than the diameter of the bacillus, but
> usually are not." [1] The Washington Post article refers to a
> diameter of 1.5 to 3.0 microns wide, but I think this may
> have been a misquote (and length instead).
>
> Thus, a TB mask should be sufficient, as Dr. Siegelson
> states. Given the article from the Washington Post, and the
> postal cases that weren't supposed to happen (aerosolized
> particles from "low risk" letter sources), it's probably
> important to wear these in the ED in cases of suspected
> exposure, until decontamination is clearly confirmed. We use
> a standard N95 particulate mask at work (which is available
> at any hardware store for sanding and painting work). In
> addition, I would suggest using a HEPA (high efficiency
> particulate arrestance) filter, which actively removes
> particles at the sub ~0.3 micron level from ambient air, in
> areas that might become contaminated. These also are readily
> available, for under $100. I've been using a nice quiet desk
> top HEPA filter for regular dust in my own house for years,
> and got it from Wal-Mart for about $70.
>
> James Li, M.D.
> Division of Emergency Medicine
> Mount Auburn Hospital
> Harvard Medical School
>
>
http://www.remotemedicine.org

REF
[1] Medical Microbiology, Sherris JC, ed. pp. 319.

----ORIGINAL MESSAGE-----
I think that the TB mask is sufficient protective equipment from
airborne spores, although there is no indication that it would be needed
while treating a patient.  Also, there is no reason to decontaminate the
patient with soap and water.  If he is worried, remove his clothes and
send him
home.  He can take a shower there if he likes.   If you wash the
patient,
the water can go down the drain.

Henry Siegelson, MD, FACEP

To unsubscribe, send the command  "SIGNOFF EMED-L" to
LISTSERV at ITSSRV1.UCSF.EDU

To unsubscribe, send the command  "SIGNOFF EMED-L" to LISTSERV at ITSSRV1.UCSF.EDU




From mstalbot at newsguy.com  Thu Oct 25 20:42:43 2001
From: mstalbot at newsguy.com (Mark Talbot)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 20:42:43 -0700
Subject: James Glassman wants national IDs: "We have to give up"
  privacy
In-Reply-To: <20011025222858.A22838@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <8355004A-C9C3-11D5-90C9-0030657961FE@newsguy.com>


> Dangerous? Yes, there are dangers to a mandatory national I.D. card, but
> there may be greater dangers without one. The fact is, to live in a 
> society
> as vulnerable as ours, we may have to give up something - but I disagree
> that what's lost is freedom. Instead, it's privacy, and maybe not even 
> that.

This guy is clueless: privacy is a form of freedom.

I have yet to see a post 9/11 scheme that would actually enhance my 
safety in any significant way. Even police states have terrorists.




From measl at mfn.org  Thu Oct 25 18:52:51 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 20:52:51 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Senate approves USA Act, sends to Bush, Ashcroft vows "new
 era"
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20011025143125.02570bf0@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: 



This has got to be the single scariest thing I have *ever* read from any
government "official".  After reading this, I doubt that the "nuclear
winter" comments that have been bandied about are going to be very far off
their mark...

It especially terrifying to note that this "speech" specifically targets
"sympathizers" as well as actual terrorists.  

J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

--------------------------------------------------------------------

> >Attorney General John Ashcroft
> >Prepared Remarks for the US Mayors Conference
> >October 25, 2001
> >
> >         For more than two hundred years, Attorneys General have called on 
> > the men and women of justice to be faithful stewards of the law.  Rarely 
> > in history has an Attorney General asked  America's prosecutors and law 
> > enforcement officers to do what they are asked to do today:  to be both 
> > defenders of justice and defenders of the people; to devote their talents 
> > and energies to the urgent task of saving lives ahead of losing cases.
> >
> >         On September 11, the wheel of history turned and the world will 
> > never be the same.  A turning point was reached, as well, in the 
> > administration of justice.  The fight against terrorism is now the first 
> > and overriding priority of the Department of Justice.  But our war 
> > against terrorism is not merely or primarily a criminal justice endeavor 
> > __ our battle is the defense of our nation and its citizens.
> >
> >         The men and women of justice and law enforcement are called on to 
> > combat a terrorist threat that is both immediate and vast; a threat that 
> > resides here, at home, but whose supporters, patrons and sympathizers 
> > form a multinational network of evil.
> >
> >         The attacks of September 11 were acts of terrorism against 
> > America orchestrated and carried out by individuals living within our 
> > borders.  Today's terrorists enjoy the benefits of our free society even 
> > as they commit themselves to our destruction.  They live in our 
> > communities __ plotting, planning and waiting to kill Americans 
> > again.  They have crossed the Rubicon of terror with the use of 
> > biological agents.  We cannot explicitly link the recent terrorist 
> > attacks to the September 11 hijackers. Yet, terrorists - people who were 
> > either involved with, associated with or are seeking to take advantage of 
> > the September 11 attacks - are now poisoning our communities with Anthrax.
> >
> >         Forty years ago, another Attorney General was confronted with a 
> > different enemy within our borders.  Robert F. Kennedy came to the 
> > Department of Justice at a time when organized crime was threatening the 
> > very foundations of the republic. Mobsters controlled one of the nation's 
> > largest labor unions.  Racketeers murdered, bribed and extorted with 
> > impunity in many of the nation's largest cities.
> >
> >         Then, as now, the enemy that America faced was described bluntly 
> > - and correctly - as a conspiracy of evil.  Then, as now, the enemy was 
> > well_financed, expertly organized and international in scope.  Then, as 
> > now, its operations were hidden under a code of deadly silence.
> >
> >         As Attorney General, Robert Kennedy launched an extraordinary 
> > campaign against organized crime.  Under his leadership, the mission and 
> > momentum of the Department of Justice were directed toward one 
> > overarching goal:  to identify, disrupt and dismantle the organized_crime 
> > enemy within.  A new spirit of cooperation was forged, both among federal 
> > agencies and between state and federal law enforcement.   Prosecutors 
> > were action oriented - pursuing cases rather than waiting for the cases 
> > to come to them.  Investigators focused on function, not form - they 
> > focused on doing what was necessary to get the job done rather than what 
> > was dictated by the organizational chart.
> >
> >         Attorney General Kennedy made no apologies for using all of the 
> > available resources in the law to disrupt and dismantle organized crime 
> > networks.  Very often, prosecutors were aggressive, using obscure 
> > statutes to arrest and detain suspected mobsters.  One racketeer and his 
> > father were indicted for lying on a federal home loan application.  A 
> > former gunman for the Capone mob was brought to court on a violation of 
> > the Migratory Bird Act.  Agents found 563 game birds in his freezer __ a 
> > mere 539 birds over the limit.
> >
> >         There are obvious differences, of course, between the network of 
> > organized crime America faced in 1961 and the network of terror we face 
> > today.  Today, many more innocent lives have been lost.  Many more 
> > innocent lives continue to be threatened.  But these differences serve 
> > only to call us more urgently to action.
> >
> >         The American people face a serious, immediate and ongoing threat 
> > from terrorism.  At this moment, American service men and women are 
> > risking their lives to battle the enemy overseas.  It falls to the men 
> > and women of justice and law enforcement to engage terrorism at 
> > home.  History's judgment will be harsh - and the people's judgment will 
> > be sure - if we fail to use every available resource to prevent future 
> > terrorist attacks.
> >
> >         Robert Kennedy's Justice Department, it is said, would arrest 
> > mobsters for "spitting on the sidewalk" if it would help in the battle 
> > against organized crime.  It has been and will be the policy of this 
> > Department of Justice to use the same aggressive arrest and detention 
> > tactics in the war on terror.
> >
> >         Let the terrorists among us be warned:  If you overstay your visa 
> > - even by one day - we will arrest you.  If you violate a local law, you 
> > will be put in jail and kept in custody as long as possible.  We will use 
> > every available statute.  We will seek every prosecutorial advantage.  We 
> > will use all our weapons within the law and under the Constitution to 
> > protect life and enhance security for America.
> >
> >         In the war on terror, this Department of Justice will arrest and 
> > detain any suspected terrorist who has violated the law.  Our single 
> > objective is to prevent terrorist attacks by taking suspected terrorists 
> > off the street.  If suspects are found not to have links to terrorism or 
> > not to have violated the law, they are released.  But terrorists who are 
> > in violation of the law will be convicted, in some cases deported, and in 
> > all cases prevented from doing further harm to Americans.
> >
> >         Within days of the September 11 attacks, we launched this 
> > anti_terrorism offensive to prevent new attacks on our homeland.  To 
> > date, our anti_terrorism offensive has arrested or detained nearly 1,000 
> > individuals as part of the September 11 terrorism investigation.  Those 
> > who violated the law remain in custody.  Taking suspected terrorists in 
> > violation of the law off the streets and keeping them locked up is our 
> > clear strategy to prevent terrorism within our borders.
> >
> >         Today, the Department of Justice is positioned to launch a new 
> > offensive against terrorism.   Due to extraordinary bi_partisan and 
> > bi_cameral cooperation in the Congress, law enforcement will have new 
> > weapons in the war on terrorism.  Yesterday, by an overwhelming margin, 
> > the House passed the Anti_terrorism Act of 2001.  Hours from now, the 
> > Senate is poised to follow suit.
> >
> >         The president is expected to sign this legislation on 
> > Friday.  The hour that it becomes law, I will issue guidance to each of 
> > our 94 U.S. Attorney's Offices and 56 FBI field offices directing them to 
> > begin immediately implementing this sweeping legislation.  I will issue 
> > directives requiring law enforcement to make use of new powers in 
> > intelligence gathering, criminal procedure and immigration violations.  A 
> > new era in America's fight against terrorism, made tragically necessary 
> > by the attacks of September 11, is about to begin.
> >
> >         The legislation embodies two over_arching principles:
> >
> >         The first principle is airtight surveillance of terrorists.
> >
> >         Upon the president's signature,  I will direct investigators and 
> > prosecutors to begin immediately seeking court orders to intercept 
> > communications related to an expanded list of crimes under the 
> > legislation.  Communications regarding terrorist offenses such as the use 
> > of biological or chemical agents, financing acts of terrorism or 
> > materially supporting terrorism will be subject to interception by law 
> > enforcement.
> >         Agents will be directed to take advantage of new, technologically 
> > neutral standards for intelligence gathering.  So_called "roving" 
> > wiretaps, that allow taps of multiple phones a suspect may use, are being 
> > added as important as an important weapon in our war against terror.
> >
> >         Investigators will be directed to pursue aggressively terrorists 
> > on the internet.   New authority in the legislation permits the use of 
> > devices that capture senders and receivers addresses associated with 
> > communications on the internet.
> >
> >         Law enforcement will begin immediately to seek search warrants to 
> > obtain unopened voice_mail stored on a computer __ just as they 
> > traditionally have used search warrants to obtain unopened email.  They 
> > will also begin to use new subpoena power to obtain payment information 
> > such as credit card or bank account numbers of suspected terrorists on 
> > the internet.
> >
> >         The second principle enshrined in the legislation is speed in 
> > tracking down and intercepting terrorists. As soon as possible, law 
> > enforcement will begin to employ new tools that ease administrative 
> > burdens and delays in apprehending terrorists.
> >
> >         Investigators are now able to use a single court order to trace a 
> > communication even when it travels outside the judicial district in which 
> > the order was issued.  The scope of search warrants for unopened e_mail 
> > and other evidence is now also nationwide.
> >
> >
> >         The new tools for law enforcement in the war against terrorism 
> > are the products of hundreds of hours of consultation and careful 
> > consideration by the administration, members of Congress, and state and 
> > local officials.  They are careful, balanced, and long overdue 
> > improvements in our capacity to prevent terrorism.
> >
> >         The federal government cannot fight this reign of terror 
> > alone.  Every American must help us defend our nation against this 
> > enemy.  Every state, every county, every municipality must join together 
> > to form a common defense against terrorism.
> >         The law enforcement campaign that will commence in earnest when 
> > the legislation is signed into law will be many years in duration.  Some 
> > will ask whether a civilized nation - a nation of law and not of men - 
> > can use the law to defend itself from barbarians and remain 
> > civilized.  Our answer, unequivocally, is "yes."  Yes, we will defend 
> > civilization.  And yes, we will preserve the rule of law because it makes 
> > us civilized.
> >
> >         The men and women of justice and law enforcement have been asked 
> > to shoulder a great burden for the safety and security of the American 
> > people.  We will, as we have in the past, never waiver in our faith and 
> > loyalty to the Constitution and never tire in our defense of the rights 
> > it enshrines.
> >
> >         Years after he left the office of Attorney General, an observer 
> > of Robert Kennedy wrote that RFK brought these assets to his successful 
> > campaign against organized crime:
> >         *A constructive anger.
> >*An intimate knowledge of his subject.
> >*A talented team of prosecutors.
> >*And, finally, a partner in the White House.
> >
> >         Today, as we embark on this campaign against terrorism, we are 
> > blessed with a similar set of advantages.  Our anger, too, is 
> > constructive.  Our knowledge is growing.  Our team is talented.  And our 
> > leadership in the White House is unparalleled.
> >
> >         George W. Bush has done more __ much more __ than declare war on 
> > terrorism. George W. Bush is fighting a war on terrorism.  Under his 
> > leadership, we have pledged ourselves to victory.
> >
> >         Terrorists live in the shadows, under the cover of darkness.  We 
> > will shine the light of justice on them.  Americans alive today and yet 
> > to be born and freedom_loving people everywhere will have new reason to 
> > hope because our enemies now have new reason to fear.
> >
> >         Thank you.
> >
> >###
> 
> 

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From frissell at panix.com  Thu Oct 25 18:01:41 2001
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 21:01:41 -0400
Subject: MORE MENTALISM
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011025205952.033f8960@frissell@brillig.panix.com>


At 10:54 AM 10/25/01 -0700, Sandy Sandfort wrote:
>C'punks,
>
>Penn asked Teller for a good book on mentalism.  Teller suggested a "great
>classic mentalism book is THIRTEEN STEPS TO MENTALISM by Corinda."  I didn't
>find it on Amazon, but I'm sure it's out there somewhere.
>
>Soon, you too will be "predicting" lotto winners.
>
>
>  S a n d y

http://www.bookfinder.com/search/?author=&title=THIRTEEN+STEPS+TO+MENTALISM+&submit=Begin+Search&new_used=*¤cy=USD&mode=basic&st=sr&ac=qr

Looks like 13 books rather than one:

Thirteen Steps to Mentalism - Step Five: Blindfolds & X-Ray Eyes
Thirteen Steps to Mentalism - Step Three - Mnemonics and Mental Systems
Thirteen Steps to Mentalism - Step Two - Pencil, lip, sound, touch and 
muscle reading
Thirteen Steps to Mentalism: Step Four - Predictions
Thirteen Steps to Mentalism: Step Seven - "Book Tests" and Supplement

Five currently available via Bookfinder.

DCF




From frissell at panix.com  Thu Oct 25 18:22:33 2001
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 21:22:33 -0400
Subject: The Cost of Oil
In-Reply-To: <20011025152205.A12287@cluebot.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011025111434.039607f0@pop3.lvcm.com>
  <5.1.0.14.0.20011025111434.039607f0@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011025210939.033fdae0@frissell@brillig.panix.com>


At 03:22 PM 10/25/01 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Though the article was somewhat silly, or partisan, or both, in places.
>Excerpt:
>
> >The Republicans oppose it as they oppose all taxes, especially ones
> >that could harm the key industries--and important political
> >contributors.
>
>Republicans opposing "all taxes?" Right. Whatever.
>
>-Declan
>
>
>On Thu, Oct 25, 2001 at 11:15:56AM -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
> > [Forbes catches up to cypherpunks]
> >
> > Americans are paying a bigger price than they know for cheap gas.
> > Charles Dubow
> >
> > http://www.forbes.com/2001/10/22/1022oilcosts.html


Likewise stupid quote:

Congress has decided that basic fundamentals of energy policy as practiced 
by virtually every other nation are off-limits," says Pietro Nivola, a 
senior fellow at Brookings Institution in Washington, D.C. "Where is it 
written that Americans have a Constitutional right to dollar-a-gallon 
gasoline?"


Gas taxes were high in Europe before anyone thought of having an energy 
policy.  They were a luxury tax on cars - driven only by "the rich" in 
Europe at the time.  A better question is why, if we are going to have 
taxes at all, should some goods and services be taxed more than 
others.  And don't feed me that "neighborhood effects" bullshit or I'll 
suggest punishingly high taxes on Congresscritters so that their antisocial 
activities can be discouraged.  [Concept stolen from Heinlein - TMIAHM]

Why have an energy policy in any case if we don't  have a Pokemon Card policy?

DCF

----
"In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which 
was right in his own eyes." -- The Book of Judges, Chapter 17, Verse 6.




From tcmay at got.net  Thu Oct 25 21:52:42 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 21:52:42 -0700
Subject: America is beyond salvation
In-Reply-To: <8355004A-C9C3-11D5-90C9-0030657961FE@newsguy.com>
Message-ID: <4A00EB88-C9CD-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Thursday, October 25, 2001, at 08:42 PM, Mark Talbot wrote:

>> Dangerous? Yes, there are dangers to a mandatory national I.D. card, 
>> but
>> there may be greater dangers without one. The fact is, to live in a 
>> society
>> as vulnerable as ours, we may have to give up something - but I 
>> disagree
>> that what's lost is freedom. Instead, it's privacy, and maybe not even 
>> that.
>
> This guy is clueless: privacy is a form of freedom.
>
> I have yet to see a post 9/11 scheme that would actually enhance my 
> safety in any significant way. Even police states have terrorists.
>

The United States Government supported the Chechen "freedom fighters" 
who blew up a couple of apartment building blocks in Moscow. Hundreds 
died.

But this was not terrorism...this was freedom fighting.

Now that the U.S. has been hit so hard, the party line in the U.S.G. is 
shifting rapidly.

As for the USA/PATRIOT law, about to be signed into law tomorrow, 
Friday, October 25, with enforcement to "begin immediately," I am not 
too worried about roving wiretaps. That's just technological evolution 
of the standard old judge-approved wiretap.

No, what worries me a great deal is the all of the language about 
terrorist organizations and what happens to those who "provide support" 
for some claimed terrorist organization. There is even frightening 
language (available by grepping the text) about how the asset 
forfeitiures, arrests, detentions, etc. should not be done for ordinary 
first amendment practitioners!

(Language like: "provided that such investigation of a United States 
person is not conducted solely upon the basis of activities protected 
bythe first amendment to the Constitution.'';")


The USA/PATRIOT bill was hastily put together, with most 
Congresscritters have essentially no idea of its implications for 
building a police state. The U.S. Congress wastes more than a year 
debating the impeachment issue over the Lewinsky affair, blah blah blah, 
then races to construct an American Reich with barely any discussion.

Disgusting. The nation is beyond salvation. America is preterite.

--Tim May
"Extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice."--Barry Goldwater




From tcmay at got.net  Thu Oct 25 22:05:58 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:05:58 -0700
Subject: America is beyond salvation
In-Reply-To: <8355004A-C9C3-11D5-90C9-0030657961FE@newsguy.com>
Message-ID: <24E6B4F8-C9CF-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Thursday, October 25, 2001, at 08:42 PM, Mark Talbot wrote:

>> Dangerous? Yes, there are dangers to a mandatory national I.D. card, 
>> but
>> there may be greater dangers without one. The fact is, to live in a 
>> society
>> as vulnerable as ours, we may have to give up something - but I 
>> disagree
>> that what's lost is freedom. Instead, it's privacy, and maybe not even 
>> that.
>
> This guy is clueless: privacy is a form of freedom.
>
> I have yet to see a post 9/11 scheme that would actually enhance my 
> safety in any significant way. Even police states have terrorists.
>

The United States Government supported the Chechen "freedom fighters" 
who blew up a couple of apartment building blocks in Moscow. Hundreds 
died.

But this was not terrorism...this was freedom fighting.

Now that the U.S. has been hit so hard, the party line in the U.S.G. is 
shifting rapidly.

As for the USA/PATRIOT law, about to be signed into law tomorrow, 
Friday, October 25, with enforcement to "begin immediately," I am not 
too worried about roving wiretaps. That's just technological evolution 
of the standard old judge-approved wiretap.

No, what worries me a great deal is the all of the language about 
terrorist organizations and what happens to those who "provide support" 
for some claimed terrorist organization (including language about 
helping them to hide communicaitons, money transfers...sounds like 
anonymous remailers face civil forfeiture of their assets, plus 
imprisonment). There is even frightening language (available by grepping 
the text) about how the asset forfeitiures, arrests, detentions, etc. 
should not be done for ordinary first amendment practitioners!

(Language like: "provided that such investigation of a United States 
person is not conducted solely upon the basis of activities protected 
bythe first amendment to the Constitution.'';")


My translation of this language: Anyone may be arrested, held without 
charges, etc., but a positive defense, provided one can hire Gerry 
Spence, may be that the activity was a 1A activity and hence the 
Homeland Defense Troopers really should not have kicked the doors in, 
killed the wife in bed because they saw movement, stomped the cat, and 
put the anon remailer operator in a dark cell for 15 weeks without any 
charges being filed or evidence produced...

The rest of the bill is filled with equally frightening stuff. Remember, 
folks, this stuff is not just directed at "Arabic-looking Middle 
Easterners with student visas." It applies to so-called right wing 
militias, to freedom fighters against unfair taxation, to gun dealers, 
even to those transporting their own fucking money! Someone carrying his 
own money faces forfeiture of the money and imprisonment, as if it were 
the King's money, not his! This grossly surpasses _anything_ the English 
masters did to the colonies. Far surpasses. Aspects of this have been 
the law for a long time, but this formalizes the issue that people 
cannot transport their own money around without the Crown deciding to 
seize their money. Fuck them dead. Fuck Washington. I pray for a massive 
enough attack to kill hundreds of thousands of these snakes in their 
den. Praise Osama, if this is what it takes.

The USA/PATRIOT bill was hastily put together, with most 
Congresscritters have essentially no idea of its implications for 
building a police state. The U.S. Congress wastes more than a year 
debating the impeachment issue over the Lewinsky affair, blah blah blah, 
then races to construct an American Reich with barely any discussion.

Disgusting. The nation is beyond salvation. America is preterite.

--Tim May
"Extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice."--Barry Goldwater




From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Thu Oct 25 22:14:52 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:14:52 -0700
Subject: Senate approves USA Act, sends to Bush, Ashcroft vows "new
  era"
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20011025143125.02570bf0@mail.well.com>; from
  declan@well.com on Thu, Oct 25, 2001 at 02:31:42PM -0400
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20011025143125.02570bf0@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <20011025221451.B3135@navel.introspect>


on Thu, Oct 25, 2001 at 02:31:42PM -0400, Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com)
wrote:

> >Attorney General John Ashcroft
> >Prepared Remarks for the US Mayors Conference
> >October 25, 2001

<...>

> >         Within days of the September 11 attacks, we launched this
> > anti_terrorism offensive to prevent new attacks on our
> > homeland.  To date, our anti_terrorism offensive has arrested or
> > detained nearly 1,000 individuals as part of the September 11
> > terrorism investigation.  Those who violated the law remain in
                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > custody.  Taking suspected terrorists in violation of the law off
    ^^^^^^^^
> > the streets and keeping them locked up is our clear strategy to
> > prevent terrorism within our borders.

Conviction without trial?

The following sentence also parses ambiguously.  Is that "taking
suspected terrorists, who are in violation of the law, off the
streets...", or "taking, in violation of the law, suspected terrorists
off the streets..."?

Peace.

--
Karsten M. Self        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?             Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]




From declan at well.com  Thu Oct 25 19:17:23 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:17:23 -0400
Subject: FC: James Glassman wants national IDs: "We have to give up" privacy
Message-ID: 

[You can see James Glassman's bio here: 
http://www.techcentralstation.com/Bios.asp?FormMode=Bio&ID=6 His column is 
not merely poorly-reasoned, but poorly researched as well: He makes some 
factual errors, such as saying the lack of a national ID card makes the 
U.S. "almost unique."  Try Canada, New Zealand, Australia, Ireland, the 
Nordic countries, Sweden, Mexico, and so on. --Declan]

***********


From declan at well.com  Thu Oct 25 19:28:59 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:28:59 -0400
Subject: James Glassman wants national IDs: "We have to give up" privacy
Message-ID: <20011025222858.A22838@cluebot.com>


----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh  -----


From keyser-soze at hushmail.com  Thu Oct 25 22:41:41 2001
From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:41:41 -0700
Subject: King George II
Message-ID: <200110260541.f9Q5ffC74667@mailserver1.hushmail.com>


In dishonor of his namesake father and the possible historical irony I suggest that from now on we call our current commander in chief "King George II" and refer to his politcal and law enforcement henchmen as "Pop Tories".




From measl at mfn.org  Thu Oct 25 20:46:09 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:46:09 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Torture Never Stops..
In-Reply-To: <3BD8CBF0.F4BC78AA@lsil.com>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 25 Oct 2001 mmotyka at lsil.com wrote:

> And I'm not sure I agree that WE are providing the rope
> to the ropers. It seems rather that the ropers are taking the rope while
> everyone else stands by without objection, blinded by tears, anger and
> fear.

I find the difference here to be semantic only.  

We, all of us who have not yet yielded to Tim's "killing spree" (and I
suspect this includes Tim himself), who are standing by and watching as
the rope slithers past us at an ever increasing rate of speed, are quite
literally "providing the rope".

Sucks to be us, huh?

-- 
Yours, 

J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From verba at rol.it  Thu Oct 25 13:46:58 2001
From: verba at rol.it (verba at rol.it)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:46:58 +0200
Subject: Verba Volant del 26-10-01
Message-ID: <1004050018@web2bk.logos.it>


Verba Volant del 26-10-01,
Every day a new quotation translated into many languages. 

Logos Translations - www.logostranslations.com 
_________________

Quotation of the day:
Author - Albert Einstein
http://www.logos.it/bio/albert_einstein.html

English - if there is no price to pay, neither is there any value
Italian - se non c'� un prezzo da pagare, non c'� neppure nessun valore
Spanish - si no hay que pagar un precio, tampoco tiene valor
French - s'il n'y a pas de prix � payer, c'est que cela ne vaut rien
Portuguese - se n�o h� um pre�o a pagar, tamb�m n�o tem qualquer valor
Brazilian Portuguese - se n�o tem um pre�o a ser pago, n�o tem tamb�m nenhum valor
German - was man bekommt, ohne einen Preis daf�r zu bezahlen, ist wertlos
Hungarian - ha nincs megfizetendo �r, akkor �rt�k sincs
Finnish - jos ei ole hintaa maksettavana, ei ole arvoakaan
Catalan - si no hi ha un preu a pagar,no hi ha tampoc cap valor
Croatian - ako nema cijene kojom se ne�to placa, onda nema nikakve vrijednosti
Czech - jestli�e neco nem� cenu, kterou je treba zaplatit, tak to nem� ani hodnotu
Dutch - als er geen te betalen prijs is, is er ook geen waarde
Emiliano-Romagnolo - s'un i � ad tirar foura la pilla, un i � gnenca unquel ad stimer
Furlan - sa nol � un presit di paj�, nol � nancje nissun val�r
Latin - nisi pretium solvendum est, ne momentum quidem est
Polish - jesli nie ma ceny do zaplacenia, nie ma r�wniez zadnej wartosci
Romanian - daca nu este un pret de platit, atunci acest lucru nu prezinta nici o valoare
Slovak - ak nieco nem� cenu, ktor� treba zaplatit, nem� ani hodnotu
Venetian - se no' ghe xe on presso da pagar no ghe xe gnanca nessun valore
Sicilian - su non c' � 'n prezzu 'cchi pavari, non c' � mancu nuddu valuri
Flemish - als er geen te betalen prijs is, is er ook geen waarde
Ferrarese - s'an gh� brisa un prezz da pagar, an gh� gnanca un val�r
Bolognese - s�an i � br�sa un pr�zi da pagh�r, an i � gnanc inci�n val�r 

_________________

All languages, please click on this link
http://www.rol.it/owa-k/press.frasiproc.carica?code=430
_________________

To unsubscribe from Verba Volant, please follow this link:
http://www.rol.it/owa-k/press.rol_ml.verbavolant 

and write in the empty field next to unsubscribe the email address that you find after "TO:" in the Verba Volant emails 
alternatively write to the following address: unsubscribe_volant at rol.it always copying the EMAIL address written after "TO:"




From Sam_fraser at hotmail.com  Thu Oct 25 20:52:44 2001
From: Sam_fraser at hotmail.com (Sam Fraser)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:52:44 -0500
Subject: THE BEST THING THAT EVER HAPPENED TO ME
Message-ID: <20011026025423.WBOD631.femail5.sdc1.sfba.home.com@[24.100.231.76]>



Thank you for your time reading this message.

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whole point of it. More and more people will become part of it. Don't forget
that currently more than 175,000,000 people are online worldwide!

Due to the popularity of this letter on the Internet, a major nightly news
program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of the program
described below, to see if it really can make people money.

The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their
findings proved once and for all that there are, absolutely no laws
prohibiting the participation in the program. This has helped to show
people that this is a simple, harmless and fun way to make some extra money
at home.

The results of this show has been truly remarkable. So many people are
participating that those involved are doing, much better than ever before.
Since everyone makes more as more people try it out, its been very exciting
to be a part of lately. You will understand once you experience it.

"HERE IT IS BELOW"

_________________________________________________________________________
_________________________________________________________________________

*** Print This Now For Future Reference ***

The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in taking a
look at. It can be started with VERY LITTLE investment and the income
return is TREMENDOUS!!!

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

If you would like to make at least $46,600 in less than 90 days! Please
read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!!!

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY. It does not require
you to come into contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all,
you never have to leave the house except to get the mail. If you believe
that someday you'll get that big break that you've been waiting for, THIS
IS IT! Simply follow the instructions, and your dreams will come true.


This multi-level e-mail order marketing program works perfectly...100\%
EVERY TIME. E-mail is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of this
non-commercialized method of advertising NOW!!! The longer you wait, the
more people will be doing business using e-mail. Get your piece of this
action!!!


MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability. It is being
taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research and the
Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50\% and 65\% of all goods and
services will be sold through multi-level methods by the mid to late 1990's.


This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 3,500,000 millionaires
in the WORLD, 20\% ( 700,000) made their fortune in the last several years
in MLM. Moreover, statistics show that over 100 people become millionaires
everyday through Multi-Level Marketing.

You may have heard this story before, but over the summer Donald Trump (A
MULTI-BILLIONAIRE, ONE OF THE WEALTHIEST MEN IN THE WORLD) made an
appearance on the David Letterman show. Dave asked him what he would do if
he lost everything and had to start over from scratch. Without hesitating,
Trump said he would find a good network marketing company and get to work.
The audience started to hoot and boo him. He looked out at the audience and
dead-panned his response "That's why I'm sitting up here and you are all
sitting out there!"

With network marketing you have two sources of income. Direct commissions
from sales you make yourself and commissions from sales made by people you
introduce to the business.

Residual income is the secret of the wealthy. It means investing time or
money once and getting paid again and again and again. In network
marketing, it also means getting paid for the work of others.

This program is currently being utilized in more than 50 different
countries across the world.

The enclosed INF0RMATION is something I almost let slip through my fingers.
Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave some thought and
study to it.

My name is Johnathon Rourke. Two years ago, the corporation I worked at for
the past twelve years down-sized and my position was eliminated. After
unproductive job interviews, I decided to open my own business. Over the
past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial problems. I owed my family,
friends and creditors over $35,000. The economy was taking a toll on my
business and I just couldn't seem to make ends meet. I had to refinance and
borrow against my home to support my family and struggling business. AT
THAT MOMENT something significant happened in my life and I am writing to
share the experience in hopes that this will change your life FOREVER
FINANCIALLY!!!

In mid December, I received this program via e-mail. Six month's prior to
receiving this program I had been sending away for INF0RMATION on various
business opportunities. All of the programs I received, in my opinion, were
not cost effective. They were either too difficult for me to comprehend or
the initial investment was too much for me to risk to see if they would
work or not. One claimed that I would make a million dollars in one
year...it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it!

But like I was saying, in December of 1997 I received this program. I
didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing
list. THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!! After reading it several times, to make
sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes. Here was a
MONEY MAKING PHENOMENON. I could invest as much as I wanted to start,
without putting me further into debt. After I got a pencil and paper and
figured it out, I would at least get my money back. But like most of you I
was still a little skeptical and a little worried about the legal aspects
of it all. So I checked it out with the U.S. Post Office (1-800-725-2161
24-hrs) and they confirmed that it is indeed legal! After determining the
program was LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT."

Initially I sent out 100,000 e-mails. It cost me about $15 for my time
on-line. The great thing about e-mail is that I don't need any money for
printing to send out the program, and because all of my orders are
fulfilled via e-mail, the only expense is my time. I am telling you like it
is, I hope it doesn't turn you off, but I promised myself that I would not
"rip-off" anyone, no matter how much money it cost me.

In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1. By
January 13, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1. Your goal is to
"RECEIVE at least 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN 2 WEEKS. IF YOU DON'T,
SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!" My first step in making $46,000 in 90
days was done.


By January 30, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2. Your goal is to
"RECEIVE AT LEAST 100+ ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN 2 WEEKS. IF NOT, SEND
OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY,
RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $46,000 GOAL." Well, I had 196 orders for
REPORT #2, 96 more than I needed. So I sat back and relaxed.


By March 1, of my e-mailing of 100,000, I received $42,000 with more coming
in every day.

I paid off ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car. Please take time
to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER!!! Remember,
it won't work if you don't try it. This program does work, but you must
follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rules of not trying to place your name in
a different place. It won't work, you'll lose out on a lot of money! In
order for this program to work, you must meet your goal of 20+ orders for
REPORT #1, and 100+ orders for REPORT #2 and you will make $46,000 or more
in 90 days. I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS!!!

If you choose not to participate in this program, I am sorry. It really is
a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you. If you choose to
participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to financial
security.

If you are a fellow business owner and are if financial trouble like I was,
or you want to start your own business, consider this a sign. I DID!

Sincerely,

Johnathon Rourke


Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way. It
works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this
exciting report to everyone you can think of. One of the people you send
this to may send out 100,000 or more...and your name will be on everyone of
them! Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers
you will reach.

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, INF0RMATION, materials and
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!

"THINK ABOUT IT"


Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take a
little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil and figure
out what could happen when YOU participate. Figure out the worst possible
response and no matter how you calculate it, you will still make lot of
money! You will definitely get back what you invested. Any doubts you have
will vanish when your first orders come in. IT WORKS!
Jody Jacobs, Richmond, VA

HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU THOUSANDS OF DOLLAR$

INSTRUCTIONS:

This method of raising capital REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME. I am sure that
you could use up to $46,000 or more in the next 90 days. Before you say
"BULL... ", please read this program carefully. This is not a chain letter,
but a perfectly legal money making opportunity. Basically, this is what you
do:

As with all multi-level businesses, we build our business by recruiting new
partners and selling our products. Because of the global nature of the
internet, you will be able to recruit new multi-level business partners
from all over the world, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent. YOUR
ORDERS COME BY MAIL AND ARE FILLED BY E-MAIL, so you are not involved in
personal selling. You do it privately in your own home, store or office.
This is the GREATEST Multi-Level Mail Order Marketing anywhere.

This is what you MUST do:

1. Order all 5 reports shown on the list below
(you can't sell them if you don't order them).

a. For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU
ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, and YOUR NAME & RETURN ADDRESS (in case
of a problem) to the person whose name appears on the list next to the
report.
MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE IN CASE OF ANY MAIL
PROBLEMS!

b. When you place your order, make sure you order each of the five reports.
You will need all five reports so that you can save them on your computer
and resell them.

c. Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the five
reports. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to
send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you.

2. IMPORTANT-- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to
each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than is
instructed below in steps "a" through "g" or you will lose out on the
majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you'll
also see how it doesn't work if you change it. Remember, this method has
been tested, and if you alter it, it will not work.

a. Look below for the listing of available reports.

b. After you've ordered the five reports, take this advertisement and
REM0VE the name and address under REPORT #5. This person has made it
through the cycle and is no doubt counting their $46,000! Also, change the
name of the company, the address, and the REM0VE e-mail address on the top
of this document to your own.

c. Move the name and address under REPORT #4 down to REPORT #5.

d. Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to REPORT #4.

e. Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3.

f. Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to REPORT #2.

g. Insert your name/address in the REPORT #1 position.

Please make sure you copy every name and address ACCURATELY!

3. Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and save
it to your computer. Make NO changes to the instruction portion of this
letter.

Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can
afford $25). You obviously already have an Internet connection and e-mail
is FREE!

To assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports
you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing INF0RMATION which
includes how to send bulk e-mails, where to find thousands of free
classified ads and much, much more.

In addition you will be provided with INF0MATION on Internet Marketing
Clubs such as INTERNET MARKETING RESOURCES(IMR): This is one the premiere
internet marketing clubs on the INTERNET. This club provides a forum where
internet marketers from all over the world can exchange ideas and secrets
on Internet Marketing. In addition, members of this club are provided free
internet marketing tools and services for the Do-Yourself-Internet-Marketer.

They will provide you with free bulk e-mail software and up to 1,000,000
fresh e-mail addresses each week. This club will provide you with hundreds
of free resources which include: How to obtain free web sites, how to
obtain top rankings in search engines for your web-site, how to send bulk
e-mail into AOL and Compuserve, how to market your products on newsgroups,
free classified ads, electronic malls, bulletin boards, banner ads and much
more.

There are two primary methods of building your downline:

METHOD #1: SENDING BULK E-MAIL

Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and
we'll assume you and all those involved send out only 2,000 programs each.
Let's also assume that the mailing receives a 0.3\% response. Using a good
list the response could be much better. Also, many people will send out
hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000. But continuing with
this example, you send out only 2,000 programs. With a 0.3\% response, that
is only 6 orders for REPORT #1. Those 6 people respond by sending out 2,000
programs each for a total of 12,000. Out of those 0.3\%, 36 people respond
and order REPORT #2. Those 36 mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of
72,000. The 0.3\% response to that is 216 orders for REPORT #3. Those 216
send out 2,000 programs each for a 432,000 total. The 0.3\% response to that
is 1,296 orders for REPORT #4. Those 1,296 send out 2,000 programs each for
a 2,592,000 total. The 0.3\% response to that is 7,776 orders for REPORT #5.


That's 7,776 $5 bills for you, CASH!!! Your total income in this example is
$30 + $180 + $1,080+ $6,480 + $38,880 for a total of $46,650!!!

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,994 OUT OF THE 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO
WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE TO THINK FOR A
MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE, OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS
INSTEAD OF 2,000.
Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! By the way, your cost
to participate in this is practically nothing. You obviously already have
an internet connection and e-mail is FREE!!!

REPORT #2 and #5 will show you the best methods for bulk emailing, tell you
where to obtain free bulk e-mail software and where to obtain e-mail lists
and show you how to send out 1,000,000 e-mails for free.

METHOD #2 - PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET

1. Advertising on the 'Net is very, very inexpensive, and there are
HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise. Let's say you decide to start small
just to see how well it works. Assume your goal is to get ONLY 6 people to
participate on your first level. (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the internet
will EASILY get a larger response.) Also assume that everyone else in YOUR
ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 6 downline members. Follow this example to achieve
the STAGGERING results below.

1st level--your 6 members with $5 ($5 x 6)........................$30
2nd level--6 members from those 6 ($5 x 36)....................$180
3rd level--6 members from those 36 ($5 x 216)............ $1,080
4th level--6 members from those 216 ($5 x 1,296)....... $6,480
5th level-6 members from those 1,296 ($5 x 7,776)... $38,880
................................................$46,650
_________________________________________________________________________


Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only recruit
6 people each. Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20 people
to participate! Many people will get 100's of participants!
THINK ABOUT IT!

For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the report they
ordered. THAT'S IT! ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS! This
will guarantee that the e-mail THEY send out, with YOUR name and address on
it, will be prompt because they can't advertise until they receive the
report!

_________________________________________________________________________

AVAILABLE REPORTS
_________________________________________________________________________
*** Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME ***

Notes:

ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH (U.S. CURRENCY) FOR EACH REPORT
CHECKS NOT ACCEPTED
ALWAYS SEND YOUR ORDER VIA FIRST CLASS MAIL
Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two sheets of
paper. On one of those sheets of paper, include:

(a) the number & name of the report you are ordering
(b) your e-mail address  (So your report can come by email)
(c) your name & postal address.


**** Place your name in the 1st report. Move the rest of the names
     down causing whoever is in 5th position to go off the list.****


PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW:
______________________________________________________

REPORT #1 "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Internet"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM

Sam Fraser
3952 Chesswood Drive
North York, Ontario
M3J 2W6

______________________________________________________

REPORT #2 "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk E-mail on the Internet"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

Stelli Stanley
366 Fairway Dr.
North Vancouver, BC, Canada
V7G 1Y6
__________________________________________________

REPORT #3 "The Secrets to Multilevel Marketing on the Internet"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:
Adam Beazley
500 Saint Joseph st.
Lafayette, LA 70506

______________________________________________________

REPORT #4 "How to become a Millionaire utilizing the Power of Multilevel
Marketing and the Internet"

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

Spatter
2700 Waterview Pkwy. #4612
Richardson, TX 75080

______________________________________________________

REPORT #5 "How to SEND 1,000,000 e-mails for FREE"

ORDER REPORT #5 FROM:

Jamie Strickland
P.o Box 253
Charlton Heights, WV 25040

______________________________________________________

______________________________________________________

There currently more than 175,000,000 people online worldwide!


******* TIPS FOR SUCCESS *******

* TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS! Be prompt, professional,
and follow the directions accurately.

* Send for the five reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have
them when the orders start coming in because:

When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested
product/report.

* ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.


* Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the
instructions exactly, your results WILL BE SUCCESSFUL!

* ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED!


******* YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES *******

Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:

If you don't receive 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks, continue
advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Then, a couple of weeks later
you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT#2. If you don't, continue
advertising or sending e-mails until you do.

Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX,
because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue
to roll in!

THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER:

Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of
a DIFFERENT report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which
report people are ordering from you. If you want to generate more income,
send another batch of e-mails or continue placing ads and start the whole
process again! There is no limit to the income you will generate from this
business!



Before you make your decision as to whether or not you participate in this
program. Please answer one question. DO YOU WANT TO CHANGE YOUR LIFE? If
the answer is yes, please look at the following facts about this
program:

1. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT
COST ANYTHING TO PRODUCE!

2. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT
COST ANYTHING TO SHIP!

3. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT
COST YOU ANYTHING TO ADVERTISE!

4. YOU ARE UTILIZING THE POWER OF THE INTERNET
AND THE POWER OF MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING TO
DISTRIBUTE YOUR PRODUCT ALL OVER THE WORLD!

5. YOUR ONLY EXPENSES OTHER THAN YOUR
INITIAL $25 INVESTMENT IS YOUR TIME!

6. VIRTUALLY ALL OF THE INCOME YOU GENERATE
FROM THIS PROGRAM IS PURE PROFIT!


******* T E S T I M O N I A L S *******

This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rule
of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't work and
you'll lose a lot of potential income. I'm living proof that it works. It
really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with little
cost to you. If you do choose to participate, follow the program exactly,
and you'll be on your way to financial security.
Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand

My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody, and I live in Chicago, IL. I am a cost
accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When
I received the program I grumbled to Jody about receiving "junk mail." I
made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and
percentages involved. I "knew" it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my
supposed intelligence and jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of
her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing
didn't work... well, the laugh was on me! Within two weeks she had received
over 50 responses. Within 45 days she had received over $147,200 in $5
bills! I was shocked! I was sure that I had it all figured and that it
wouldn't work. I AM a believer now. I have joined Jody in her "hobby." I
did have seven more years until retirement, but I think of the "rat race"
and it's not for me. We owe it all to MLM.
Mitchell Wolf MD., Chicago, IL

The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is
honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount of
money in a short time. I was approached several times before I checked this
out. I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal
effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in the
first 14 weeks, with money still coming in.
Sincerely yours,
Pam Hedland Halmstad, Sweden

Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to
participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the
initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't
get enough orders to at least get my money back. I surprised when I found
my medium-size post office box crammed with orders! For awhile, it got so
overloaded that I had to start picking up my mail at the window. I'll make
more money this year than any 10 years of my life before. The nice thing
about this deal is that it doesn't matter where people live. There simply
isn't a better investment with a faster return.
Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada

I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I
shouldn't have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to
get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed another program,
11 months passed then it came...I didn't delete this one!...I made more
than $41,000 on the first try!!
Mohamed, Cairo, Egypt

This is my third time to participate in this plan. We have quit our jobs,
and will soon buy a home on the beach and live off the interest on our
money. The only way on earth that this plan will work for you is if you do
it. For your sake, and for your family's sake don't pass up this golden
opportunity.
Good luck and happy spending!
Sam Lee Suva, Fiji Islands


ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL
FREEDOM!

NOW IS THE TIME FOR YOUR TURN

DECISIVE ACTION YIELDS POWERFUL RESULTS

_________________________________________________________________________

PLEASE NOTE: If you need help with starting a business, registering a
business name, learning how income tax is handled, etc., contact your local
office of the Small Business Administration (a Federal agency)
1-(800)827-5722 for free help and answers to questions. Also, the Internal
Revenue Service offers free help via telephone and free seminars about
business tax requirements. Your earnings and results are highly dependant
on your activities and advertising. This letter constitutes no guarantees
stated nor implied. In the event that it is determined that this letter
constitutes a guarantee of any kind, that guarantee is now void. Any
testimonials or amounts of earnings listed in this letter may be factual or
non-verifiable. If you have any question of the legality of this letter
contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices Federal
Trade Commission Bureau of Consumer Protection in Washington DC.


______________________________________________________________________

Under Bill s.1618 TITLE III passed by the 105th US Congress this letter
cannot be considered spam as long as the sender includes contact information
and a method of removal. To be Removed please reply to this e-mail  with the
words
REMOVE in the subject area.





From declan at well.com  Thu Oct 25 20:22:17 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 23:22:17 -0400
Subject: Senate approves USA Act, sends to Bush, Ashcroft vows "newera"
In-Reply-To: <3BD8CF0C.4D7CC185@lsil.com>; from mmotyka@lsil.com on Thu, Oct 25, 2001 at 07:48:44PM -0700
References: <3BD8CF0C.4D7CC185@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <20011025232217.B23761@cluebot.com>


On Thu, Oct 25, 2001 at 07:48:44PM -0700, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote:
>  "The first principle is airtight surveillance of terrorists."
>   { obviously since we can't a priori know who is a terrorist
>     and who is not we have to watch everyone. }

Put another way, if the Feds seriously believe someone to be a
terrorist, for chrissakes, arrest 'em! We've seen that habeas corpus
is no deterrent, after all.

There may be limited reasons to keep an honest-to-goodness terrorist
under surveillance, but the new law won't help there -- the FBI already
has the power it needs.

-Declan




From decoy at iki.fi  Thu Oct 25 14:18:41 2001
From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 00:18:41 +0300 (EEST)
Subject: Market Competition for Security Measures
In-Reply-To: <3BD81BA8.23750.13C025B@localhost>
Message-ID: 


On Thu, 25 Oct 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote:

>And if we place food on the market, we no longer have a guarantee that
>anyone will be able to eat :-)

Of course. The point is, the market can work perfectly well in the absence
of sufficient nutrition for all of the participants. This does not hold
when property rights are violated.

Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - mailto:decoy at iki.fi, tel:+358-50-5756111
student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front
openpgp: 050985C2/025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2




From piolenc at mozcom.com  Thu Oct 25 09:24:33 2001
From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 00:24:33 +0800
Subject: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and  
 bounds )
References:  <3.0.6.32.20011025073526.008539f0@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3BD83CC1.5B4E5120@mozcom.com>




David Honig wrote:
> 
> At 12:42 PM 10/25/01 +0800, F. Marc de Piolenc wrote:
> >Jim Choate wrote:

> >> > We need to send a message that "armed propaganda" is not an acceptable
> >> > form of self-expression, no matter what the alleged cause.
> >>
> >> Review the American revolution and the current news before you follow this
> >> little meme very far.
> >
> >..and your point is...?
> 
> Obvious to americans ---that sometimes arms *should* be taken up.

No argument there - I just have a lot of trouble equating terrorism and
the American war of independence. Arms should indeed be taken up against
those who wantonly murder the innocent.

Marc de Piolenc


> 
> 
> 
> 

-- 
Remember September 11, 2001 but don't forget July 4, 1776

Rather than make war on the American people and their
liberties, ...Congress should be looking for ways
to empower them to protect themselves when
warranted.

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin





From user0432 at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 26 01:02:54 2001
From: user0432 at yahoo.com (user0432 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 01:02:54 -0700
Subject: Save Money! Refiance Now!!!
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From blancw at cnw.com  Fri Oct 26 01:15:36 2001
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 01:15:36 -0700
Subject: James Glassman wants national IDs: "We have to give up" 
  privacy
In-Reply-To: <8355004A-C9C3-11D5-90C9-0030657961FE@newsguy.com>
Message-ID: 


>From Mark Talbot:

:I have yet to see a post 9/11 scheme that would actually enhance my
:safety in any significant way. Even police states have terrorists.
--------------



I was listening on the radio some days ago to a journalist from Sri Lanka
describing how strict and thorough the security is in their region.
Nevertheless they still have bombings.  And for every bomb, and the deaths
of relatives and friends, another terrorist 'is born' who wants vengeance.

A local problem the legislators have overlooked is that there are young
teenage boys in typical American homes who even now may be planning to blast
away their high schools.  If they actually carry out their grievances in the
next four years, under the new rules they and their families and even their
friends will be classified as terrorists and supporters.

Furthermore, under the new rules which allow all sorts of surveillance, many
public officials themselves are likely to be the first ones caught doing
illegal things or having their personal indecencies intercepted.  And they
may be the first to figure out imaginative ways around the surveillance -
which would be really useful.

  ..
Blanc




From nobody at dizum.com  Thu Oct 25 17:00:16 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 02:00:16 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Torture Never Stops..
Message-ID: <0e9feebcd8b43371493599cbd77782cf@dizum.com>


Listen, its not a return to fascism.
Not by any stretch, so unbunch your
panties.

unbunch(panties);

Some Americans are tired of being
stepped on.
Me in particular.
Its way different than the inferrence
you infer. 
I am sure that we agree on the same 
stuff, we just dont agree on how to 
get there.
I would love to meet in the middle 
someplace, as long as my beloved 
fellow unblamed citizens remain free
and unharmed in the process.

If a foreign guy ends up in a cell
someplace because of some questionable 
activities, like LYING about knowing
one of these terror mongers, LYING
about knowing particular details, 
like having screwy immigration documents....
that shit adds up. It may not MEAN the
guy is guilty of something, but dang...
its preventive medicine. If a guy happens
to get waxed, then a guy happens to get 
waxed. That happens in prison.
It happens to innocent people in prison.
It happens to guilty people in prison.
It shouldnt happen but it does. Deal somehow
with it.
Anyways, I dont think this will effect
mainstream Americans and the odd cypherpunk
thrown in among them. Unless that cpunk
happens to be Middle Eastern, and guilty
of something previously determined to 
be suspect. 
But in the long run will we, considering 
ourselves Freedom Advocates (believe it 
or not, I consider myself one), hang ourselves 
with the collective rope we inadvertently 
meant to provide to our ropers?


My position:
I am not willing to give up ANYTHING for my
freedom...
But then again, I dont have screwy 
immigration documents that would cause anyone 
to want to usurp my individual freedoms.

I will not give up encryption, or privacy.

Ya know its weird, because I hear the Freedom
folks say: "Oh yea, thats what -they- always say
to you, 'if you have not done anything wrong
then you have nothing to worry about'" and 
now I feel thats not far from the truth, in
a strange zenexistential way. Someone tell me 
why thats a bad statement.
I mean, if I HAVE done something wrong, I 
should be afraid, right?



Heres the message we should try to send
with our words and our actions:

Dont fuck up and try to kill Americans.
Because we will fuck you in your ass with 
a greased lightning tomahawk missile
that will gut you and your camel, and 
the 5 wives you both rode in on... along
with those 15 little terrorists a year you
keep pumping out, in your own words. 
By the way, forget about sex for fun with those
broads... apparently there is a mandate 
to 'copulate to populate, not just to fornicate'.
SNAP, after lookin at some of 'dat shit, I 
would rather masturbate. No wonder they wear
veils, dey breath must stank to High Heaven.


Unfortunately, the civilized world is 
counting on us to hold shit together
for financial stability. So we have to
catch up the guys who have sorta fallen 
behind and made a mess of things for us
in a way. Smacks of New World Order, dont it?
I dont like it either, but hey...

>From a distance, this is al-Hatfields and 
Wal-McCoys, and we(USA) are Sheriff Andy Taylor
and Israel is Deputy Barney Fucking Fife,
and he keeps shooting himself in the foot 
every time we try to draw down on that
stupid family feud that we now gotta clean 
up after cuz the SAUDIS (or the REST of the
arab contingent) cant TCOB, cuz they 
dont wanna get their hands dirty just to 
protect their status quo, tally ho, lets 
get the Americans to do it.


Come on, say it... say what you feeeel man :)
Dont blame the 'extremist right' of America
for this clamping down on our beloved freedoms.

now...
Are you still free?
Can you say what you want in this political climate?
Could you ever?
Does it matter?
Are your papers in order?




From blancw at cnw.com  Fri Oct 26 02:02:58 2001
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 02:02:58 -0700
Subject: America is beyond salvation
In-Reply-To: <24E6B4F8-C9CF-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: 


>From Tim May:

:The USA/PATRIOT bill was hastily put together, with most
:Congresscritters have essentially no idea of its implications for
:building a police state. The U.S. Congress wastes more than a year
:debating the impeachment issue over the Lewinsky affair, blah blah blah,
:then races to construct an American Reich with barely any discussion.
:
:Disgusting. The nation is beyond salvation. America is preterite.
--------------------


But you never did have any hopes or great expectations from it, anyway, did
you.  I mean, you're of the mind to take up the responsibility for your own
existence regardless of what national borders you're living within, and
hardly waiting for or dependent upon their generosity.

  --

Speaking of taking up full responsibility for one's preferred lifestyle, it
makes me think that it will be an oddly strange, science-fiction kind of
existence that some of us will be operating in, in the future, trying to
survive and achieve our ambitions in between weasels, dogs of war, and
missile fire.  Something between "A Boy and his Dog", "Mad Max", and
"Neuromancer".

  ..
Blanc




From sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 26 03:39:03 2001
From: sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com (sonofgomez709)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 03:39:03 -0700
Subject: America is beyond salivation
Message-ID: <000c01c15e0a$6f240500$aa0da2cd@vaio>


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---

On Thursday, October 25, 2001, at 08:42 PM, Mark Talbot wrote:

>> Dangerous? Yes, there are dangers to a mandatory national I.D. card,
>> but
>> there may be greater dangers without one. The fact is, to live in a
>> society
>> as vulnerable as ours, we may have to give up something - but I
>> disagree
>> that what's lost is freedom. Instead, it's privacy, and maybe not even
>> that.
>
> This guy is clueless: privacy is a form of freedom.
>
> I have yet to see a post 9/11 scheme that would actually enhance my
> safety in any significant way. Even police states have terrorists.
>

The United States Government supported the Chechen "freedom fighters"
who blew up a couple of apartment building blocks in Moscow. Hundreds
died.

But this was not terrorism...this was freedom fighting.

Now that the U.S. has been hit so hard, the party line in the U.S.G. is
shifting rapidly.

As for the USA/PATRIOT law, about to be signed into law tomorrow,
Friday, October 25, with enforcement to "begin immediately," I am not
too worried about roving wiretaps. That's just technological evolution
of the standard old judge-approved wiretap.

No, what worries me a great deal is the all of the language about
terrorist organizations and what happens to those who "provide support"
for some claimed terrorist organization (including language about
helping them to hide communicaitons, money transfers...sounds like
anonymous remailers face civil forfeiture of their assets, plus
imprisonment). There is even frightening language (available by grepping
the text) about how the asset forfeitiures, arrests, detentions, etc.
should not be done for ordinary first amendment practitioners!

(Language like: "provided that such investigation of a United States
person is not conducted solely upon the basis of activities protected
bythe first amendment to the Constitution.'';")


My translation of this language: Anyone may be arrested, held without
charges, etc., but a positive defense, provided one can hire Gerry
Spence, may be that the activity was a 1A activity and hence the
Homeland Defense Troopers really should not have kicked the doors in,
killed the wife in bed because they saw movement, stomped the cat, and
put the anon remailer operator in a dark cell for 15 weeks without any
charges being filed or evidence produced...

The rest of the bill is filled with equally frightening stuff. Remember,
folks, this stuff is not just directed at "Arabic-looking Middle
Easterners with student visas." It applies to so-called right wing
militias, to freedom fighters against unfair taxation, to gun dealers,
even to those transporting their own fucking money! Someone carrying his
own money faces forfeiture of the money and imprisonment, as if it were
the King's money, not his! This grossly surpasses _anything_ the English
masters did to the colonies. Far surpasses. Aspects of this have been
the law for a long time, but this formalizes the issue that people
cannot transport their own money around without the Crown deciding to
seize their money. Fuck them dead. Fuck Washington. I pray for a massive
enough attack to kill hundreds of thousands of these snakes in their
den. Praise Osama, if this is what it takes.

The USA/PATRIOT bill was hastily put together, with most
Congresscritters have essentially no idea of its implications for
building a police state. The U.S. Congress wastes more than a year
debating the impeachment issue over the Lewinsky affair, blah blah blah,
then races to construct an American Reich with barely any discussion.

Disgusting. The nation is beyond salvation. America is preterite.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
CJ Parker 
http://profiles.yahoo.com/sonofgomez709
http://members.w-link.net/~sog/INDEX.HTM
http://jya.com/cejfiles.htm

"The True Story Of The InterNet"
The Xenix ChainSaw Massacre
http://www.technopagan.org/politics/xenix/
WebWorld & The Mythical Circle Of Eunuchs
http://www.technopagan.org/politics/webworld/
InfoWar: Final Frontier Of The Digital rEvolution
http://www.technopagan.org/politics/infowarriors/
Space Aliens Hide My Drugs
http://www.technopagan.org/politics/sahmd/




From mix at hackserv.saiknes.lv  Thu Oct 25 19:06:20 2001
From: mix at hackserv.saiknes.lv (Anonymous sender)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 04:06:20 +0200
Subject: Anonymous Remailer test
Message-ID: 


Test




From isn at c4i.org  Fri Oct 26 02:26:24 2001
From: isn at c4i.org (InfoSec News)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 04:26:24 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [ISN] Commentary: The Threat Of Microsofts .Net
Message-ID: 

http://www.kingpublishing.com/fc/new_technology/commentary.htm

BY WHITFIELD DIFFIE AND SUSAN LANDAU

For more than two centuries Americans have prided themselves on
protecting their freedom by limiting the concentration of power. With
its famous balance of power, the U.S. Constitution divides federal
power among the three branches of government, while the Bill of Rights
provides other checks all of which have served the country well.

With new threats have come new protections. In the nineteenth century,
corporations grew and multiplied, and some amassed the kind of power
we had always sought to limit in our own government. Anti-trust laws
were passed to guarantee that commercial power would be distributed
among competing companies in every sector of business.

These protections have also served us well.

But now a new threat has arisen that may be less obvious but more
dangerous.

While computer and communication technology have enhanced our lives in
many ways, they have also caused fundamental changes that make
protecting ourselves from the concentration of power more
difficult--in part because these technologies have made it feasible to
build organizations that are larger and more globally-distributed than
ever before. The result: we need to be more alert to potential abuses
of power.

The fact that everything is interconnected makes it possible to
concentrate power in a new way. A business that holds a monopoly in
one area may be able to use its influence to extend its monopoly in
entirely new ways. This is what is happening as Microsoft attempts to
extend its monopoly over personal computer operating systems into the
Internet world.

Microsoft .NET (pronounced dot net') is a far-reaching project to
channel the personal information of all customers who browse, shop,
and congregate on the Internet into Microsoft or Microsoft-controlled
companies. It is made up of components: Passport establishes an
individual's identity on the Internet .NET My Services collects

various pieces of private information--including .NET Contacts, .NET
Location, .NET Inbox, .NET Documents, .NET Devices, and .NET Wallet.

The control over computer software that Microsoft has achieved through
its dominance of operating systems has limited competition and
innovation throughout the computer field.  Through .NET, it is
attempting to exert the same control over all Internet commerce. Just
as kings got to grant or deny royal charters to businesses, the
Redmond giant, if successful, may be able to say who can do business
on the Net and who can't.

But there is another and more immediate problem with .NET--something
that could evolve from a problem to a national crisis even if
Microsoft is well behaved or well regulated in the use of its new
powers.  That is the problem of security, as opposed to privacy.

What is the difference? If Microsoft knows everything about
everyone--and the information being collected by Passport and My
Services make that look quite likely--the company could still be
constrained in how it uses that information by laws or corporate
privacy policies. That presupposes, however, that Microsoft is
actually in control of the information it has collected.

Microsofts security record is nothing to brag about. Windows is the
most widely used yet one of the least secure operating systems around.
Microsoft programs have shown themselves vulnerable to worms, viruses,
and break-ins, on Microsoft's own computers and on everybody else's.
The Melissa virus spread through Microsoft's word processing and
e-mail programs, sending itself to the first 50 people in each of the
infected machine's address lists. A year later the ILOVEYOU virus
infected the Web through a different part of Microsofts e-mail
package. More recently Microsoft's own internal systems were hacked,
and the intruders spent over a month accessing system source code,
likened to Microsoft's crown jewels, before their unlawful entry was
discovered.

Why should Passport be any different? Early security analyses show
that compromises made for the sake of universal availability make
Passport less secure than it might have been, less secure than it
should be, and perhaps just plain insecure. The My Services databases
will be a particularly ripe target for hackers. (Since all users of
Microsoft's free Hotmail service have Passports, many unknowingly,
there are already 160 million Passport users.)

Remember, Willie Sutton used to rob banks because that's where the
money is.

Suppose that in a year or two Microsoft has succeeded in funneling the
lion's share of information about people's identities, preferences,
financial assets, and shopping habits to itself and putting them all
in one big database. If Microsoft can't protect its own systems: what
hope is there for Microsoft databases that will contain the credit,
locations, and private files of millions upon millions of users?

Suppose somebody breaks in. Everyone's personal and financial
information would suddenly be in the hands of the intruders. Or
worse--they could be scattered about in a series of resulting
malfunctions. The extent of the financial, social, and political
disaster that could result is hard to imagine.

If history has shown us anything, it's that the best protection lies
in decentralizing power and promoting competition. We need to take the
same approach to our digital identities and make sure that who and
what we are is not held captive by a single entity.


Whitfield Diffie and Susan Landau are respectively distinguished
engineer and senior staff engineer at Sun Microsystems and co-authors
of Privacy on the Line: The Politics of Wiretapping and Encryption,
MIT Press, 1998. Diffie is also the co-inventor of public-key
cryptography.




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The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
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From stevet at sendon.net  Thu Oct 25 22:46:10 2001
From: stevet at sendon.net (Steve Thompson)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 05:46:10 +0000
Subject: Where The Torture Never Stops...
References: 
Message-ID: <200110260736.HAA06506@divert.sendon.net>



Quoting Sandy Sandfort (sandfort at mindspring.com):
> "Onin wal-a bin Hakkin" wrote:
> 
> > but in all candor, dont ya think
> > that if a guy is there who SHOULDNT
> > be there, he wouldnt be there
> > after a decent timeframe of investigation?
> 
> If you were innocent of any crime and were thrown in the slammer with bad
> people and given no opportunity to contact friends or lawyers, what would
> you consider "a decent timeframe of investigation" before they cut you
> loose?  If/when they did cut you loose would you say, "Hey, no hard feeling,
> I know you have a job to do," or would you seek some sort of compensation?

That would be my view.  After all, mistakes do happen and so we should all be
understanding of our and their all-too-human failings which occasionaly lead
to minor inconveniences.


Regards,

Steve

-- 
Oldthinkers unbellyfeel Ingsoc.




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Fri Oct 26 04:42:40 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 07:42:40 -0400
Subject: Senate approves USA Act, sends to Bush, Ashcroft vows
  "newera"
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20011025143125.02570bf0@mail.well.com>
  <20011025221451.B3135@navel.introspect>
Message-ID: <3BD94C30.9EE1E322@acmenet.net>


"Karsten M. Self" wrote:
> 
> on Thu, Oct 25, 2001 at 02:31:42PM -0400, Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com)
> wrote:
> 
> > >Attorney General John Ashcroft
> > >Prepared Remarks for the US Mayors Conference
> > >October 25, 2001
> 
> <...>
> 
> > >         Within days of the September 11 attacks, we launched this
> > > anti_terrorism offensive to prevent new attacks on our
> > > homeland.  To date, our anti_terrorism offensive has arrested or
> > > detained nearly 1,000 individuals as part of the September 11
> > > terrorism investigation.  Those who violated the law remain in
>                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > > custody.  Taking suspected terrorists in violation of the law off
>     ^^^^^^^^
> > > the streets and keeping them locked up is our clear strategy to
> > > prevent terrorism within our borders.
> 
> Conviction without trial?

Deliberate vagueness on Asscruft's part, I suspect. As I understand it,
most of the Arab-looking men in custody are being held on technical
immigration charges. Thanks to changes in the law a couple of years ago,
immigrants in violation can be held indefinitely without trial or legal
representation, or even deported based on secret evidence. And
immigration laws are like traffic laws: it's virtually impossible to go
through life without an occasional technical violation.

INS's motto: Habeus corpus is for citizens.


-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Fri Oct 26 08:30:58 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 08:30:58 -0700
Subject: Where The Torture Never Stops...
In-Reply-To: <200110260736.HAA06506@divert.sendon.net>
Message-ID: 


Steve Thompson wrote:

> Sent: 25 October, 2001 22:46
> To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> Subject: Re: Where The Torture Never Stops...
>
>
> Quoting Sandy Sandfort (sandfort at mindspring.com):
> > "Onin wal-a bin Hakkin" wrote:
> >
> > > but in all candor, dont ya think
> > > that if a guy is there who SHOULDNT
> > > be there, he wouldnt be there
> > > after a decent timeframe of investigation?
> >
> > If you were innocent of any crime and were thrown in the
> slammer with bad
> > people and given no opportunity to contact friends or lawyers,
> what would
> > you consider "a decent timeframe of investigation" before they cut you
> > loose?  If/when they did cut you loose would you say, "Hey, no
> hard feeling,
> > I know you have a job to do," or would you seek some sort of
> compensation?
>
> That would be my view.  After all, mistakes do happen and so we
> should all be
> understanding of our and their all-too-human failings which
> occasionaly lead
> to minor inconveniences.

Help me out here folks.  Am I being humor impaired here and not recognizing
this as satire or could it be that Steve really believes that having one's
freedom stripped away in the most offensive manner is really a "minor
incovenience"?  Damn, if it's the latter, everyone who ever fought for
freedom in America must be spinning in their graves.


 S a n d y




From declan at well.com  Fri Oct 26 05:33:14 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 08:33:14 -0400
Subject: FC: Anti-terrorism bill's "expiration date" may not mean much
Message-ID: 

Text of USA Act, which President Bush will sign today:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d107:h.r.03162:

Background:
http://www.wartimeliberty.com/search.pl?topic=legislation

---

http://www.wired.com/news/conflict/0,2100,47901,00.html
   
   Terror Bill Has Lasting Effects
   By Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com)
   2:00 a.m. Oct. 26, 2001 PDT
   
   WASHINGTON -- Legislators who sent a sweeping anti-terrorism bill to
   President Bush this week proudly say that the most controversial
   surveillance sections will expire in 2005.
   
   Senate Judiciary chairman Patrick Leahy (D-Vermont) said that a
   four-year expiration date "will be crucial in making sure that these
   new law enforcement powers are not abused." In the House, Bob Barr
   (R-Georgia) stressed that "we take very seriously the sunset
   provisions in this bill."
   
   But the Dec. 2005 expiration date embedded in the USA Act -- which the
   Senate approved 98 to 1 on Thursday -- applies only to a tiny part of
   the mammoth bill.
   
   After the president signs the measure on Friday, police will have the
   permanent ability to conduct Internet surveillance without a court
   order in some circumstances, secretly search homes and offices without
   notifying the owner, and share confidential grand jury information
   with the CIA.
   
   Also exempt from the expiration date are investigations underway by
   Dec. 2005, and any future investigations of crimes that took place
   before that date.

   [...]
   
   Other sections of the USA Act, which the House approved by a 357 to 66
   vote on Wednesday, that do not expire include the following:
   
     * Police can sneak into someone's house or office, search the
       contents, and leave without ever telling the owner. This would be
       supervised by a court, and the notification of the surreptitious
       search "may be delayed" indefinitely. (Section 213)
     * Any U.S. attorney or state attorney general can order the
       installation of the FBI's Carnivore surveillance system and record
       addresses of Web pages visited and e-mail correspondents --
       without going to a judge. Previously, there were stiffer legal
       restrictions on Carnivore and other Internet surveillance
       techniques. (Section 216)
     * Any American "with intent to defraud" who scans in an image of a
       foreign currency note or e-mails or transmits such an image will
       go to jail for up to 20 years. (Section 375)
     * An accused terrorist who is a foreign citizen and who cannot be
       deported can be held for an unspecified series of "periods of up
       to six months" with the attorney general's approval. (Section 412)
     * Biometric technology, such as fingerprint readers or iris
       scanners, will become part of an "integrated entry and exit data
       system" with the identities of visa holders who hope to enter the
       U.S. (Section 414)
     * Any Internet provider or telephone company must turn over customer
       information, including phone numbers called -- no court order
       required -- if the FBI claims the "records sought are relevant to
       an authorized investigation to protect against international
       terrorism." The company contacted may not "disclose to any person"
       that the FBI is doing an investigation. (Section 505)
     * Credit reporting firms like Equifax must disclose to the FBI any
       information that agents request in connection with a terrorist
       investigation -- without police needing to seek a court order
       first. Current law permits this only in espionage cases. (Section
       505)
     * The current definition of terrorism is radically expanded to
       include biochemical attacks and computer hacking. Some current
       computer crimes -- such as hacking a U.S. government system or
       breaking into and damaging any Internet-connected computer -- are
       covered. (Section 808)
     * A new crime of "cyberterrorism" is added, which covers hacking
       attempts causing damage "aggregating at least $5,000 in value" in
       one year, any damage to medical equipment or "physical injury to
       any person." Prison terms range between five and 20 years.
       (Section 814)
     * New computer forensics labs will be created to inspect "seized or
       intercepted computer evidence relating to criminal activity
       (including cyberterrorism)" and to train federal agents. (Section
       816)



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----- End forwarded message -----




From declan at well.com  Fri Oct 26 05:38:00 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 08:38:00 -0400
Subject: Anti-terrorism bill's "expiration date" may not mean much
Message-ID: <20011026083759.A29319@cluebot.com>


----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh  -----


From piolenc at mozcom.com  Thu Oct 25 17:39:37 2001
From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 08:39:37 +0800
Subject: 'Privacy Council' in defense of M$
References: <007501c15d8d$965354a0$695f1b09@raleigh.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <3BD8B0C9.4F403B5A@mozcom.com>




Peter Capelli wrote:

> "If you start at zero, 50% is only 50 cents," Ponemon said.

Where did he learn math, I wonder?

Marc de Piolenc




From freematt at coil.com  Fri Oct 26 05:46:20 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 08:46:20 -0400
Subject: 9-11 Narco-Interrogation & Torture
Message-ID: 



From choiceletter at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Oct 26 01:49:04 2001
From: choiceletter at yahoo.co.uk (choiceletter at yahoo.co.uk)
Date: 26 Oct 2001 08:49:04 -0000
Subject: Worlds Best Adult Entertainment Portal
Message-ID: <20011026084904.4341.qmail@www166.servergod.com>

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From declan at well.com  Fri Oct 26 05:52:22 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 08:52:22 -0400
Subject: FC: Democrats' new "bio" bill links police to SABRE, Amtrak systems
Message-ID: 

A more detailed summary of the Bioterrorism Protection Act is available 
here --- final bill has not been written yet -- though the pages are not 
sequential, so it's only for the brave:
http://vorlon.mit.edu/~declan/biobill/

Excerpts from that summary:
* "Evaluate need to vaccinate first responders against smallpox"
* "Utilize biometric techniques to identify suicide-biological-bombs"
* "Increase surveillance through development of sentinel strain. Create a 
network of interconnected databases for near-real time integration of 
threat indicator data"
* "Establish a perception management and economic market mitigation plan 
and resources"
* "Ensure isolated, genetically diverse pools of seed and livestock to 
replenish stocks destroyed in disease containment"
* "Assess and harden physical security of water-bottling facilites"
* "The handoff between intelligence and law enforcement agencies must be 
made smoother"
* "Use GPS and wireless identification systems to monitor commercial 
traffic in high-risk and border areas"
* "Ensure that private databases (SABRE, Amtrak reservations, etc.) are 
able to interface with law enforcement information stores immediately"

-Declan

********

http://www.wired.com/news/conflict/0,2100,47898,00.html

    Dems Ready Bioterrorism Bill
    By Declan McCullagh and Ben Polen
    2:00 a.m. Oct. 26, 2001 PDT

    WASHINGTON -- In an attempt to differentiate themselves from their GOP
    counterparts, House Democrats are preparing legislation they say will
    shield America from biological terrorism.

    As anxieties about anthrax mushroomed on Capitol Hill -- with the
    deadly bacteria discovered in five congressional office buildings so
    far -- House Minority Leader Richard Gephardt (D-Missouri) said
    Thursday that new spending and police powers are necessary to protect
    the public.

    At a press conference held in the open air away from any of the
    polluted buildings, Gephardt said his "Bioterrorism Protection Act"
    would earmark $7 billion for homeland security -- including $1.4
    billion on vaccines and antibiotics -- and provide police with instant
    access to private databases such as the airline's SABRE system and
    Amtrak reservations.

    [...]

********

http://menendez.house.gov/speaks/viewrelease.cfm?id=337

HOMELAND SECURITY TASK FORCE CHAIRMAN MENENDEZ ANNOUNCES BIOTERRORISM 
LEGISLATION
WASHINGTON, DC - Rep. Bob Menendez (D-NJ), Vice Chair of the Democratic 
Caucus and Chairman of the House Democratic Task Force on Homeland 
Security, joined by Democratic Leader Richard Gephardt and Members of the 
Task Force, today announced the Democratic proposal to protect communities 
throughout America against future bioterrorist threats or attacks.
The Democratic Bill, the Bioterrorism Protection Act (BioPAct) of 2001, 
seeks to eliminate biological threats, secure our borders on land and at 
sea, protect our food and water, equip our communities with the resources 
to prevent and respond to bioterrorism, and strengthen our Intelligence 
through full coordination, using our most advanced technology to fight 
bioterrorism.
Menendez made the following remarks:
"I'm Bob Menendez, the Chairman of the House Democratic Task Force on 
Homeland Security, and I first want to thank the chairs and vice chairs of 
the working groups that helped write this plan: Bill Pascrell, Sanford 
Bishop, Bobby Scott, Jane Harman, Ike Skelton, Bob Borski, Lucille 
Roybal-Allard, Ellen Tauscher, Sheila Jackson-Lee, Mike Honda, Jim Turner, 
and Jerry Costello - and I want to thank the incredible work of over 80 
Members of our Task Force on this bill. These aren't just Members of 
Congress, they're husbands and wives, mothers and fathers, working to make 
our country and their communities safe and secure. And I think they've done 
a great job.
"What we've learned in the last few weeks is that no matter what we as a 
people are confronted with, we will overcome and defeat our adversaries. No 
attack, no threat, no evil will undermine our resolve and our strength. 
America stands proud and firm - our country and our people have served as 
an example to all of humanity. America has reacted to this unspeakable 
inhumanity with resiliency & humanity - humanity in the face of evil.
"We call the Bioterrorism Protection Act "BioPAct" because we know that 
every American needs to be a part of the fight, part of a pact to protect 
our Homeland. And if we're asking the public to be 'vigilant', then they 
need and deserve to be informed in full and given the chance to be a part 
of a dialogue with the officials who work for them. This bill does that.
(more) "BioPAct is a pact between the American people and their government, 
working together, called to national service, marshaling our vast 
resources, to keep America safe from bioterrorism. The plan doesn't just 
draw on government programs, but on the American spirit, intellect & 
creativity, breaking new frontiers, setting an example the world can follow 
in this new age.
"We're here to tell our fellow citizens that we can beat this foe - and we 
can protect our Homeland.
"The BioPAct will proactively assess the new threats and risks we face, so 
we make sure we target our funding where it's needed most. It will 
eliminate biological threats at the source, by helping countries like 
Russia and the other former Soviet states prevent their biological agents 
from getting into our enemies' hands. We will secure our borders on land 
and at sea by adding thousands of new border agents and by putting our most 
advanced technology at work to screen out terrorists and the weapons they 
might try to bring with them - whether they try to enter our nation at 
airports, on ships, by foot, or in a car. And BioPAct will keep our food 
and water supply safe and secure by putting a comprehensive new inspection 
protocol in place.
"We will make sure our local communities have all the resources they need - 
from greater hospital capacity, to police and firefighters trained in 
counter-terrorism.
"We can prevent disease outbreaks through early and rapid detection; and 
can save lives by making sure we have the vaccines and medicines to treat 
people - and a plan in place to get them where they need to go on a 
moment's notice. This bill does that. And BioPAct strengthens our 
Intelligence by ensuring our many government agencies coordinate 
information and planning. We need one comprehensive strategy - not a dozen 
different ones.
"This bill is a commitment to do all this, and a lot more - because we know 
there is nothing more important than keeping American families safe.
"This is the first in a series of proposals this Task Force and we 
Democrats in the House are putting forward to address Homeland Security. My 
colleagues and I look forward to working with the President and the 
Republicans to get the job done - in fact we met with Director Ridge 
yesterday, and I'm confident we can work together as one American team.
"And as part of that team effort, we also call on the President to use the 
funding already allocated to fight terrorism to begin a national threat 
assessment; to help local communities cover the unexpected overtime costs 
they have already borne in response to the new threat environment since 
September 11th; and to rapidly dedicate new resources to our Coast Guard, 
our border security, and our postal service. We can and will protect our 
Homeland.
"I'm now proud to introduce our Democratic Leader, Dick Gephardt, who had 
the foresight early on to work with our Caucus Chairman, Martin Frost, to 
create this Task Force - bringing so many Members together to work on an 
issue that's on the mind of every American. He's been an inspiration to 
this Congress and to our nation - Ladies and Gentlemen: Dick Gephardt -
"Thank you."

Executive Summary of the BioPAct:
HOUSE DEMOCRATIC CAUCUS  HOMELAND SECURITY TASK FORCE THE BIOTERRORISM 
PROTECTION ACT (BioPAct) of 2001
A $7 Billion Pact with America
Public Health Infrastructure and Response to Bioterrorism ($3.5 billion)
Improving Community Emergency Response Capacity and Preparedness -- $1 billion
Increasing hospital capacity, educating medical personnel, increasing 
nursing and clinical lab personnel, and providing training to first 
responders.
Ensuring an Adequate Supply of Vaccines and Treatments for All Americans -- 
$1.4 billion
Increasing the national stockpile of anthrax antibiotics, developing and 
acquiring additional doses of smallpox vaccines, researching and developing 
new vaccines and antibiotics, training and equipping health professionals 
to provide antibiotics and vaccines, and expediting FDA approval of new 
products.
Enhancing Community Planning and Intergovernmental Coordination -- $600 million
Providing planning grants to local communities and health care providers to 
develop emergency response plans that meet certain minimum federal 
guidelines, requiring states to submit medical response plans to the 
federal government, funding state trauma care systems, and strengthening 
intergovernmental coordination.
Enhancing Surveillance, Improving Communications, and Strengthening 
Technology Infrastructure -- $500 million
Improving state and local surveillance, training health care personnel in 
the detection of illnesses related to biological attacks, upgrading 
laboratories, ensuring a 24-hour public health system is available to local 
providers, improving and expanding CDC surveillance capabilities, building 
local technology and communication systems, enhancing communications among 
agencies, and requiring state and federal agencies to share with first 
responders important information about the potential dangers of an 
emergency site.   Protecting Our Food And Water ($800 million)
Keeping Our Food Safe -- $725 million
Protecting crops and livestock through increased surveillance and research, 
strengthening both physical and information security at key agricultural 
facilities, increasing inspections of imported food shipments with 
additional inspectors, increasing the inspections of domestic production 
plants, coordinating and testing federal emergency response plans, and 
helping states track foodborne agents.
Keeping Our Water Supply Safe -- $75 million
Reviewing emergency preparedness and vulnerabilities of water systems, 
providing resources to address deficiencies in security, developing 
improved monitoring systems to track water quality, improving security of 
information systems, improving security of water-bottling facilities, and 
implementing background checks for quality testers at treatment plants and 
bottling facilities.
Enhancing Law Enforcement's Ability to Protect the Nation ($870 million)
Providing the right tools to law enforcement agencies -- $275 million
Expanding federal authority over biological agents and toxins; establishing 
new criminal offenses involving the possession and unsafe handling of 
biological agents; developing and deploying new screening hardware, 
software, computer infrastructure, and training to support biometric 
technology; creating new COPS grants to local communities for 
counter-terrorism training and equipment; giving grants to local 
governments for strategic planning and intergovernmental coordination 
related to terrorism preparedness and response; providing funds to 
eliminate the backlog of convicted offender DNA samples yet to be entered 
in the FBI database.
Securing Our Borders at Land and Sea -- $345 million
Increasing the size of the United States Border Patrol Force and the number 
of INS and Customs Inspectors at ports of entry; implementing biometric 
scanning techniques at border checkpoints; funding development and 
deployment of scanning technology capable of detecting explosive devices, 
biological and chemical contaminants; mandating better INS tracking of 
visas and integrating visa monitoring with federal watch lists; providing 
Coast Guard with enhanced training and equipment.
Addressing Threats to Mail Delivery Services -- $250 million
Developing and deploying faster scanning technologies, implementing 
improved mail tracking abilities to track suspicious packages to their 
source, and investigating procedures to treat mail and mitigate threats 
posed by contaminated mail.
Strengthening Our Intelligence Through Full Coordination ($1.1 billion)
Improving Organization and Coordination of Intelligence Community -- $270 
million
Conducting a threat assessment to identify vulnerabilities and provide a 
basis for a national strategy for homeland security; removing barriers to 
efficient information sharing between intelligence collection and 
information use by law enforcement and first responders; conducting a 
public education campaign to alert Americans to the threat and appropriate 
responses for biological weapons.
Improving Intelligence Capabilities -- $850 million
Deploying biological and chemical detectors for site analysis, continual 
surveillance of fixed sites, and improved identification of foreign 
biological agent possession; increasing language translation skills and 
improving usage of language resources across agencies; increasing human 
intelligence assets.
The Military:  Preparing, Responding & Assisting Communities ($720 million)
Initial Crisis Response and First Responder Support -- $420 million
Increasing military domestic crisis response teams, creating and training 
additional Civil Support Teams, and training and equipping military and 
civilian emergency responders with interoperable communications equipment.
Interagency Crisis and Consequence Management Exercises -- $100 million
Implementing a uniform government-wide evaluation system to ensure 
proficiency and achievement of military domestic crisis response, 
increasing training of military personnel for response to weapons of mass 
destruction incidents, and increasing resources for military involvement in 
consequence and crisis management exercises.
Research and Development -- $100 million
Accelerating technology development in chemical and biological research 
(prevention and treatment), advanced sensors, and other promising technologies.
Cooperative Threat Reduction (Nunn-Lugar) -- $100 million
Securing the supply of biological and chemical weapons-grade material from 
the former Soviet Union, improving Russian and former Soviet Union border 
and export controls, and increasing support for the Material Protection, 
Control and Accounting Program.
###




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From declan at well.com  Fri Oct 26 06:01:19 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 09:01:19 -0400
Subject: Democrats' new "bio" bill links police to SABRE, Amtrak systems
Message-ID: <20011026090119.A29809@cluebot.com>


----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh  -----


From tcmay at got.net  Fri Oct 26 09:01:36 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 09:01:36 -0700
Subject: Pravda Propaganda On The NRA, GOA and Militias
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Friday, October 26, 2001, at 08:27 AM, Matthew Gaylor wrote:

Matt Gaylor has forwarded this article. My profound thanks to him. This 
is one of the most insightful articles I've seen on the real internal 
political situation in the U.S., the "red" vs. "blue" separation.

Truly ironic that it takes a "red" to understand the "reds" in the U.S.

(For those outside the U.S., a word of explanation. For some reason, 
political mappers showed votes for Al Gore in _blue_ and votes for Bush 
in _red_. I have no idea how this came to be...I had never noticed it 
until this past election. In fact, it was only in this past election 
that most of the commentators glommed on this "look at the red parts of 
the map versus the blue parts of the map" meme, so apparently a lot of 
us got exposed to this red vs. blue mapping only recently.)

While there's still a little bit of "propaganda" language in the 
article, it is generally a more incisive analysis of the developing 
trends in American politics than nearly all of what passes for analysis 
by American journalists.

I urge people to read the full article carefully. I'll only comment on a 
handful of paragraphs.

--Tim May



> 
>
> Oct, 18 2001
> 20:11 2001-10-18
>
> BILL WHITE: GUN GROUPS SEE STEADY BLEED INTO MILITIAS; DOMESTIC UNREST 
> STILL GROWING IN UNITED STATES
> There are three issues that motivate America's militia movement - 
> support of gun rights, opposition to taxation, and opposition to the 
> United Nations and the loss of America's sovereignty to global 
> corporate rule - a system the militias see as socialism and 
> anti-globalists label capitalism, and which is really a blend of the 
> worst elements of the two.

Amazing that a Russian publication (is it really Russian, or just 
reprinted by them?) gets this so right. Nearly all American journalists 
just babble about skinheads and survivalists when they talk about the 
militia movement.

> Among these issues, the most important, the one that seems most 
> immediately threatening, and which has been the prime motivation for 
> the existence of the militia movement, has been the possibility of 
> nation-wide confiscation of firearms by the US Federal government.

Indeed.

> The Real Activists
>
> The Southern Poverty Law Center, a rather shady group of lawyers who 
> make profit by suing organizations they label as "hateful",

Wow. It takes a Russian to call a spade a spade.

The SPLC is the most anti-liberty organization in the U.S. Words fail me 
in describing them.

> One militia group based in Southern values that recently drew attention 
> was the Militia of Georgia, an armed formation consisting of what 
> researchers claim is 300 men who operate in at least 20 cells 
> throughout the state, which ordered its members to mobilize in the wake 
> of the September 11 bombings, and to be on guard against attempts by 
> the government to use the bombings to create a New World Order.

This move to a police state took a big move forward this morning, 
October 26th.

> The Potential For Separatism
>
> America's Southerners aren't the only regional-ethnic groups seeking 
> independence from the cosmopolitan internationalism of the nations' 
> elite. Rural New Englanders have launched a "blood and soil" separatist 
> movement of their own. Carolyn Chute's Second Maine Militia, a group 
> that has mixed right-wing, left-wing, and green politics, as well as 
> regional ethnic identity and national separatism, into a 500+ man armed 
> formation based in Northern New England and Canada's eastern provinces, 
> re-released a manifesto calling for people in New England and Canada to 
> revolt and create a new nation - the New Atlantic Confederacy - 
> independent of either government, should the impending war on terrorism 
> cause the central government to lose the ability to maintain control in 
> America's more remote rural areas. Her movement is explicitly pro-gun 
> and anti-capitalist, and deals regularly with other "right-wing" 
> militia organization active in the area. As Chute put it in a 2000 
> interview:

No particular comment on this excerpt, but I include it to give a flavor 
of this guy's detailed understanding (he knows a lot more than I do 
about militia movements, that's for sure!).

> "Behind all those urban killings are people created by the Great 
> Progressive Society. These people are not revolting against the Great 
> Progressive Society. They are raw imitations of the Great Progressive 
> Society. We are led to believe that the professional middle class are 
> the winners, the working class are the losers. As I see it, class is 
> about values, dependence and ways of communicating. The working class 
> person values place, interdependence, cooperation, the tribe. Rural 
> working class especially values land. Many of us would kill to keep our 
> land, our home, which for thousands of years was not considered a crazy 
> thing to do. Middle-class professionals are into "success" and they are 
> a dependent people, happily dependent on the consumer system for 
> everything. You call it independence. But if you lost your electricity, 
> your service people, your access to stores, you'd see how independent 
> you are! Working-class people have become dependent on these things, 
> too, but working-class values resent this dependency."

Wow.

> Conclusion: America's Militia Movement Is Not To Be Discounted
>
> It is clear that the rural people of American - the mostly white 
> population descended from the original European settlers of the 
> nation - have become alienated from the cosmopolitan blend of urban 
> white liberals and their train of ethnically defined special interests 
> that have gained control of America's cities. One only has to look at a 
> map of who voted for George Bush and who voted for Al Gore to see that 
> a clear divide has occurred between the values of the country's elite 
> and their lackeys, and the real working people of the nation.

Agreed. Too bad Bush is pushing the New World Order agenda, though I 
suppose it was thrust upon him by events. Al Gore certainly would have 
been even more internationalist.

> America's white working class, so long reviled by the intellectuals and 
> the clique that control the government, has been organizing itself into 
> regional-ethnically based citizen militias that are prepared to fight 
> to restore the values of their ancestor's revolution two hundred and 
> twenty five years ago. For the first time in a century, more of 
> America's white population lives in rural areas than in it's cities, 
> and that demographic change is only one indicator of the larger, more 
> widely spread divide.
>
> Should the American nation fracture, whether due to a massive terrorist 
> attack, the repressive domestic policies of its government, or a 
> combination of both, it is clear that there are thousands, if not tens 
> of thousands, of Americans who are already organized in paramilitary 
> armed formation for the goal of seizing power and restoring the 
> Constitutional Republic that they feel progressive liberalism has lost 
> them.

An insightful summary.
>
> Copyright )1999 by "Pravda.RU". When reproducing our materials in whole 
> or in part, reference to Pravda.RU should be made.

Gladly.


--Tim May
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a 
monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also 
into you." -- Nietzsche




From bob at black.org  Fri Oct 26 09:04:26 2001
From: bob at black.org (Subcommander Bob)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 09:04:26 -0700
Subject: Asscruft Puffery
Message-ID: <3BD98989.5AD0C5B8@black.org>


At 07:42 AM 10/26/01 -0400, Steve Furlong wrote:
>Deliberate vagueness on Asscruft's part, I suspect. As I understand it,

He is strutting and puffing like a rooster who watches his hens being
taken away
by a fox.

At least Reno was scary, neither are convincing.




From measl at mfn.org  Fri Oct 26 07:44:00 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 09:44:00 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Where The Torture Never Stops...
In-Reply-To: <200110260736.HAA06506@divert.sendon.net>
Message-ID: 



On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, Steve Thompson wrote:

> That would be my view.  After all, mistakes do happen and so we should all be
> understanding of our and their all-too-human failings which occasionaly lead
> to minor inconveniences.

"minor inconveniences"???  Never been in so much as a holding pen I
see.  Maybe you should ask to tour your nearest facility, just to get
enough information to evaluate the relative "inconvenience" of this
scenario - your current view is *totally* unrealistic.

> Regards,
> 
> Steve

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From webmaster at answerchase.com  Fri Oct 26 08:00:48 2001
From: webmaster at answerchase.com (Announcement)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 10:00:48 -0500
Subject: AnswerChase Newsletter
Message-ID: <200110261423.JAA04080@einstein.ssz.com>

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From: webmaster at answerchase.com (Announcement)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 10:00:48 -0500
Subject: AnswerChase Newsletter
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From measl at mfn.org  Fri Oct 26 08:06:57 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 10:06:57 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [EMED-L] anthax & cocaine (fwd)
Message-ID: 



Forwarded for your amusement. Picture the results of this - at least 1/2
of the executive branch dead or dying, no legislators, and maybe just a
handful of judges left?

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 09:17:50 -0400
From: Dr Manuel Sotelo 
Reply-To: EMED-L -- a list for emergency medicine practitioners.
    
To: EMED-L at ITSSRV1.UCSF.EDU
Subject: [EMED-L] anthax & cocaine

I read yesterday from a Colombian news dispatch that Alquayda (or whatever
the name)
terrorist group wants to send the anthrax to the US in the Colombian
cocaine.
Interesting way to finish "De Facto" a world problem.....
regards
Manuel Sotelo

To unsubscribe, send the command  "SIGNOFF EMED-L" to LISTSERV at ITSSRV1.UCSF.EDU




From webmaster at answerchase.com  Fri Oct 26 08:13:36 2001
From: webmaster at answerchase.com (Announcement)
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Subject: AnswerChase Newsletter
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From tcmay at got.net  Fri Oct 26 10:24:48 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 10:24:48 -0700
Subject: The end of the Fourth Amendment
In-Reply-To: <20011026083759.A29319@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <5B1A9946-CA36-11D5-9E00-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Friday, October 26, 2001, at 05:38 AM, Declan McCullagh wrote:

Too many totalitarian surveillance state measures to comment on, but the 
"sneak and peek" provision is such a slam dunk violation of the Fourth 
Amendment that it bears special comment.

>    Other sections of the USA Act, which the House approved by a 357 to 
> 66
>    vote on Wednesday, that do not expire include the following:
>
>      * Police can sneak into someone's house or office, search the
>        contents, and leave without ever telling the owner. This would be
>        supervised by a court, and the notification of the surreptitious
>        search "may be delayed" indefinitely. (Section 213)


Anyone caught inside a house or office should be dealt with in the most 
expeditiious manner possible.

Anyone picked up on crittercam surveillance cameras, and identified by 
any means, should be dealt with later. The offices and judges who order 
such sneak and peek invasions shluld be dealt with as well.

All of those who passed this law have, in my political opinion, earned 
the death penalty,

--Tim May
"Extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice."--Barry Goldwater




From hakkin at sarin.com  Fri Oct 26 10:25:38 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 10:25:38 -0700
Subject: Ministry of truth: ABC anchor regrets remarks
Message-ID: <3BD99C92.773428C3@sarin.com>


[Yes ABC is a nominally private entity (modulo their govt license
and use of spectrum) but note that she was speaking on her own
time.]

Friday October 26 02:16 AM EDT

By Andrew Grossman

NEW YORK (The Hollywood Reporter) --- ABC anchorwoman Carole Simpson on
Thursday said she regretted some
of the remarks she made at an Oct. 16 conference that led to her
two-week suspension from Sunday's "World News
Tonight."

The network took that action in the wake of her speech to the
International Women's Media Foundation in New York
where she revealed various details about the 7-month-old infant who
contracted anthrax and his mother, a producer at
ABC.

Simpson's comments were particularly ill-timed because network
executives had announced the illness only the night
before and were still trying to communicate information to the media and
ABC employees about the situation. In her
speech, Simpson gave away the sex of the child -- a boy -- and revealed
the producer's identity -- she was Simpson's
producer.

Executives were also upset about Simpson telling the conference that
"This Week" co-host Cokie Roberts had received a
suspicious letter postmarked Trenton, N.J., in the Washington bureau,
where Simpson also works.

But the letter proved innocent and it did not come from Trenton, leaving
officials livid that Simpson had bypassed the
network's process for disseminating anthrax information.

In her statement, Simpson said she regretted sharing the erroneous
information, saying: "When any of us in this
profession makes a mistake, it's important to say so." But she made no
mention of her revelations about the mother's
and baby's identities.

ABC News declined to comment, saying it was a personnel matter.

Chris Bury replaced Simpson on Oct. 21. Simpson is due back Nov. 4.

---------
"Propoganda outlets are military targets" -NATO during FRYwar




From Tell.Us at newsletter.tide.com  Fri Oct 26 07:27:09 2001
From: Tell.Us at newsletter.tide.com (Tide Neighbor to Neighbor)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 10:27:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Free VeggieTale Book from Downy -- Win a House from Home Made Simple   
Message-ID: 

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From alphabeta121 at hotmail.com  Fri Oct 26 10:39:57 2001
From: alphabeta121 at hotmail.com (alphabeta121)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 10:39:57 -0700
Subject: Pravda Propaganda On The NRA, GOA and Militias
References: 
Message-ID: 


This article touches on a note that irritates me, a pro-Capitalist, pro-gun
American.  The fact that many militias, 'right winger's' and so on are
claiming that
"global corporations, the wealthy, and ruling-class billionaires as being
behind the plot to take away America's Second Amendment rights. "
I'll agree that global corperations (such as lowe's) and "ruling-class
billionaires" (such as George Soros) are 'behind the plot to take away 2nd
amendment rights.  But generalizing that to "the wealthy" is a big mistake.
By allying with 'populists' and nationalists, we could see the NRA
supporting protectionism, stronger Union laws, and other anti-capitalist
dogma.
So should libertarians do to fight the NRA's trend left, as well as the
"liberal power-elite"

alpha



----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim May" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 9:01 AM
Subject:  Re: Pravda Propaganda On The NRA, GOA and Militias


> On Friday, October 26, 2001, at 08:27 AM, Matthew Gaylor wrote:
>
> Matt Gaylor has forwarded this article. My profound thanks to him. This
> is one of the most insightful articles I've seen on the real internal
> political situation in the U.S., the "red" vs. "blue" separation.
>
> Truly ironic that it takes a "red" to understand the "reds" in the U.S.
>
> (For those outside the U.S., a word of explanation. For some reason,
> political mappers showed votes for Al Gore in _blue_ and votes for Bush
> in _red_. I have no idea how this came to be...I had never noticed it
> until this past election. In fact, it was only in this past election
> that most of the commentators glommed on this "look at the red parts of
> the map versus the blue parts of the map" meme, so apparently a lot of
> us got exposed to this red vs. blue mapping only recently.)
>
> While there's still a little bit of "propaganda" language in the
> article, it is generally a more incisive analysis of the developing
> trends in American politics than nearly all of what passes for analysis
> by American journalists.
>
> I urge people to read the full article carefully. I'll only comment on a
> handful of paragraphs.
>
> --Tim May
>
>
>
> > 
> >
> > Oct, 18 2001
> > 20:11 2001-10-18
> >
> > BILL WHITE: GUN GROUPS SEE STEADY BLEED INTO MILITIAS; DOMESTIC UNREST
> > STILL GROWING IN UNITED STATES
> > There are three issues that motivate America's militia movement -
> > support of gun rights, opposition to taxation, and opposition to the
> > United Nations and the loss of America's sovereignty to global
> > corporate rule - a system the militias see as socialism and
> > anti-globalists label capitalism, and which is really a blend of the
> > worst elements of the two.
>
> Amazing that a Russian publication (is it really Russian, or just
> reprinted by them?) gets this so right. Nearly all American journalists
> just babble about skinheads and survivalists when they talk about the
> militia movement.
>
> > Among these issues, the most important, the one that seems most
> > immediately threatening, and which has been the prime motivation for
> > the existence of the militia movement, has been the possibility of
> > nation-wide confiscation of firearms by the US Federal government.
>
> Indeed.
>
> > The Real Activists
> >
> > The Southern Poverty Law Center, a rather shady group of lawyers who
> > make profit by suing organizations they label as "hateful",
>
> Wow. It takes a Russian to call a spade a spade.
>
> The SPLC is the most anti-liberty organization in the U.S. Words fail me
> in describing them.
>
> > One militia group based in Southern values that recently drew attention
> > was the Militia of Georgia, an armed formation consisting of what
> > researchers claim is 300 men who operate in at least 20 cells
> > throughout the state, which ordered its members to mobilize in the wake
> > of the September 11 bombings, and to be on guard against attempts by
> > the government to use the bombings to create a New World Order.
>
> This move to a police state took a big move forward this morning,
> October 26th.
>
> > The Potential For Separatism
> >
> > America's Southerners aren't the only regional-ethnic groups seeking
> > independence from the cosmopolitan internationalism of the nations'
> > elite. Rural New Englanders have launched a "blood and soil" separatist
> > movement of their own. Carolyn Chute's Second Maine Militia, a group
> > that has mixed right-wing, left-wing, and green politics, as well as
> > regional ethnic identity and national separatism, into a 500+ man armed
> > formation based in Northern New England and Canada's eastern provinces,
> > re-released a manifesto calling for people in New England and Canada to
> > revolt and create a new nation - the New Atlantic Confederacy -
> > independent of either government, should the impending war on terrorism
> > cause the central government to lose the ability to maintain control in
> > America's more remote rural areas. Her movement is explicitly pro-gun
> > and anti-capitalist, and deals regularly with other "right-wing"
> > militia organization active in the area. As Chute put it in a 2000
> > interview:
>
> No particular comment on this excerpt, but I include it to give a flavor
> of this guy's detailed understanding (he knows a lot more than I do
> about militia movements, that's for sure!).
>
> > "Behind all those urban killings are people created by the Great
> > Progressive Society. These people are not revolting against the Great
> > Progressive Society. They are raw imitations of the Great Progressive
> > Society. We are led to believe that the professional middle class are
> > the winners, the working class are the losers. As I see it, class is
> > about values, dependence and ways of communicating. The working class
> > person values place, interdependence, cooperation, the tribe. Rural
> > working class especially values land. Many of us would kill to keep our
> > land, our home, which for thousands of years was not considered a crazy
> > thing to do. Middle-class professionals are into "success" and they are
> > a dependent people, happily dependent on the consumer system for
> > everything. You call it independence. But if you lost your electricity,
> > your service people, your access to stores, you'd see how independent
> > you are! Working-class people have become dependent on these things,
> > too, but working-class values resent this dependency."
>
> Wow.
>
> > Conclusion: America's Militia Movement Is Not To Be Discounted
> >
> > It is clear that the rural people of American - the mostly white
> > population descended from the original European settlers of the
> > nation - have become alienated from the cosmopolitan blend of urban
> > white liberals and their train of ethnically defined special interests
> > that have gained control of America's cities. One only has to look at a
> > map of who voted for George Bush and who voted for Al Gore to see that
> > a clear divide has occurred between the values of the country's elite
> > and their lackeys, and the real working people of the nation.
>
> Agreed. Too bad Bush is pushing the New World Order agenda, though I
> suppose it was thrust upon him by events. Al Gore certainly would have
> been even more internationalist.
>
> > America's white working class, so long reviled by the intellectuals and
> > the clique that control the government, has been organizing itself into
> > regional-ethnically based citizen militias that are prepared to fight
> > to restore the values of their ancestor's revolution two hundred and
> > twenty five years ago. For the first time in a century, more of
> > America's white population lives in rural areas than in it's cities,
> > and that demographic change is only one indicator of the larger, more
> > widely spread divide.
> >
> > Should the American nation fracture, whether due to a massive terrorist
> > attack, the repressive domestic policies of its government, or a
> > combination of both, it is clear that there are thousands, if not tens
> > of thousands, of Americans who are already organized in paramilitary
> > armed formation for the goal of seizing power and restoring the
> > Constitutional Republic that they feel progressive liberalism has lost
> > them.
>
> An insightful summary.
> >
> > Copyright )1999 by "Pravda.RU". When reproducing our materials in whole
> > or in part, reference to Pravda.RU should be made.
>
> Gladly.
>
>
> --Tim May
> "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a
> monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also
> into you." -- Nietzsche




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Fri Oct 26 10:47:42 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 10:47:42 -0700
Subject: Where The Torture Never Stops...
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


Duncan Frissell wrote:

> Besides, "Prison is not punishment to the literate."

'Course being buggered by your cellmate is.  Also, jail/prison libraries are
woefully lacking in the sort of books you REALLY need.


 S a n d y




From hakkin at sarin.com  Fri Oct 26 10:50:02 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 10:50:02 -0700
Subject: Al-Jazeera Guide in English
Message-ID: <3BD9A24A.6B2EF761@sarin.com>


This link http://www.cursor.org/aljazeera.htm
has stories about censorship & satellites and a link to
a site that translates Al-Jazeera's site.

(That link seems slow but the site is up.)




From jet at spies.com  Fri Oct 26 10:51:50 2001
From: jet at spies.com (j eric townsend)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 10:51:50 -0700
Subject: Pravda Propaganda On The NRA, GOA and Militias
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 


At 09:01 -0700 2001/10/26, Tim May wrote:
>(For those outside the U.S., a word of explanation. For some reason, 
>political mappers showed
>votes for Al Gore in _blue_ and votes for Bush in _red_. I have no 
>idea how this came to be.

It's been done that way for years on television vote tallies.  They 
never use, say, purple and orange, almost always red and blue (and 
green, I think for independents).  I'm not sure, but I think GOP has 
always been red and Dems have always been blue.
-- 
J. Eric Townsend -- http://www.spies.com/jet

Were you in USASSG/ACSI/MACV in Vietnam, 1967-1970?  Drop me a line if so...




From tcmay at got.net  Fri Oct 26 10:53:58 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 10:53:58 -0700
Subject: Where The Torture Never Stops...
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <6E47220C-CA3A-11D5-9E00-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Friday, October 26, 2001, at 10:36 AM, Duncan Frissell wrote:

> On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, Steve Thompson wrote:
>
>> That would be my view.  After all, mistakes do happen and so we should 
>> all be
>> understanding of our and their all-too-human failings which 
>> occasionaly lead
>> to minor inconveniences.
>
>
> Besides, "Prison is not punishment to the literate."
>

I've seen you quote this several times.

Since it's a generality ("the literate") and not just a statement about 
your own personal view of prison, I dispute it. I'm literate, but prison 
would indeed be punishment for me. For all of the usual reasons.

Being thrown in a jail cell and having reading material is no substitute 
for liberty.


"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: What would things 
have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to 
make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive?" 
--Alexander Solzhenitzyn, Gulag Archipelago




From freematt at coil.com  Fri Oct 26 08:27:24 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 11:27:24 -0400
Subject: Pravda Propaganda On The NRA, GOA and Militias
Message-ID: 




Oct, 18 2001
 
20:11 2001-10-18

BILL WHITE: GUN GROUPS SEE STEADY BLEED INTO MILITIAS; DOMESTIC 
UNREST STILL GROWING IN UNITED STATES

When agents of America's US Marshals surrounded the Indiana Baptist 
Temple, accusing the church and its parishioners of violating US tax 
laws by refusing to pay social security taxes on non-clergical 
employees, they didn't charge in with guns blazing, as they did at 
Waco. Concern about bad publicity was there, but there was a more 
serious concern just under the surface - the Southern Indiana 
Regional Militia, a 250-man "unorganized" citizen's militia unit, had 
pledged to defend the church - and their threats were taken seriously.

"Steps have been taken and we are ready to respond if something does 
happen," Roger Stalcup, elected commander of the militia, told 
Indiana's Hoosier Times, "It's my opinion that if you've got people 
in that church and the U.S. marshals go in, anything can happen"

His statements were taken seriously, and his unit, which marches 
under the slogan "God Bless The Republic -- Death to the New World 
Order", was listed in a press release by the US Marshals as a major 
reason they chose to negotiate, rather than raid, the dissident 
religious group's headquarters. The Southern Indiana Regional Militia 
had been trained in small-unit tactics by former US military 
personnel, several of whom hold officer ranks in the citizen's group, 
and their ability to take on the US government in a fire fight could 
not only have been difficult for the federal police forces - it could 
have been disastrous.

The Southern Indiana Regional Militia is not an isolated phenomena - 
it is one of hundreds of similar units which have been growing in 
size and influence across the country since the announcement by 
George the First of his plans for a "New World Order" - a New World 
Order that many Americans believe is planning to destroy the US 
Constitution and enact dictatorial martial law in the name of the 
United Nations and the international corporate-socialism.

Origins In America's Gun Activist Community

There are three issues that motivate America's militia movement - 
support of gun rights, opposition to taxation, and opposition to the 
United Nations and the loss of America's sovereignty to global 
corporate rule - a system the militias see as socialism and 
anti-globalists label capitalism, and which is really a blend of the 
worst elements of the two. Among these issues, the most important, 
the one that seems most immediately threatening, and which has been 
the prime motivation for the existence of the militia movement, has 
been the possibility of nation-wide confiscation of firearms by the 
US Federal government. In America, the people know that the 
foundation of their liberty is their ability to use firearms to 
resist government police and military personnel, and it is widely 
believed that an attempt to confiscate their arms will be the first 
step in imposing a dictatorship on US citizens. Daily this has seemed 
more real, and thus there has been a steady bleed of activists out of 
mainstream groups like the National Rifle Association, and into more 
confrontational activist groups, like Gun Owners of America and the 
Tyranny Response Team, and eventually into militias and other armed 
non-governmental formations.

The NRA recently reported in the last election, with voters faced 
with the threat of anti-gun Al Gore
winning the presidency, that its membership surged from under three 
million to over four million. Some say that number is slowly edging 
closer to five. In a nation of 280 million people, nearly 1.5% of the 
population - one person out of sixty six - is a member of the 
country's largest gun lobby.

It is from these membership figures, and from the ability to mobilize 
large numbers of activists at the local level and bring them out to 
work polls and fill campaign offices for pro-gun politicians, that 
the NRA has always derived its power. While there is no doubt of the 
NRA's monetary power, it's opponents, often funded by billionaires 
like Andrew J. McKelvey, can usually match or exceed it in that 
arena. What the NRA has that anti-gun groups don't is the ability to 
bring out tens of thousands of Americans each election cycle to hand 
out literature, plant road signs, fold mailings, and engage in the 
community activism needed to fight anti-gun legislation. But it is in 
this arena that upstart groups have offered the most competition.

Gun Owners of America, headed by Larry Pratt, is a radically pro-gun 
organization that, in contrast to the NRA, has called for the 
elimination of all regulations on firearms purchases and ownership, 
including mandatory background checks, and which has taken a hard 
line against the United Nations. Pratt is a radical Constitutionalist 
and Christian who openly mixes his religious beliefs with his 
politics, and has been accused of sharing the stage with even more 
extreme leaders - including members of the Aryan Nations and the Ku 
Klux Klan (though he has not been accused of sharing their views). In 
1996, that accusation forced Pratt out as an aid to the Buchanan 
campaign. In 1998, according to anti-gun researcher Kenneth Stern, 
Pratt's organization had 100,000 members. Now, similar anti-gun 
researchers estimate his group has grown to as many as 150,000 - 
200,000 in size, and there is no question that the core of his 
strength is NRA grassroots activists who are leaving the NRA to be 
involved in more militant forms of activism.

Another group that has worked with Pratt's, and which forms an even 
more confrontational front of its own, is the Tyranny Response Team, 
a network of pro-gun "minute men", based on the minute men militias 
of the American Revolution, who go out to anti-gun events and to 
speeches by anti-gun politicians to confront and challenge the often 
skewed and distorted presentation of gun politics. The TRT, founded 
by Jewish gun store owner Bob Glass, has also gone beyond gun 
activism, holding regular 500-man protests against the Internal 
Revenue Service and the United Nations conference on small arms. 
While the TRT declined to give out membership information, it has 
branches in approximately 33 states, and most branches have 50 to 100 
regular active members, meaning the group comprises at least 1500 
regular activists nationwide - with an unknown number of less-active 
"supporting" members.

These groups, with their anti-globalist, anti-UN rhetoric and 
primitive class perspective - what Americans call "populism" - have 
begun to draw more radical elements of the NRA, such as Executive 
Vice President Wayne LaPierre, to adopt similar rhetoric. In a recent 
issue of America's First Freedom - the NRA's fast-growing political 
magazine - LaPierre denounced global corporations, the wealthy, and 
ruling-class billionaires as being behind the plot to take away 
America's Second Amendment rights.

And while groups like Gun Owner's of America and the Tyranny Response 
Team are not militias per se, and often engage in very mainstream 
pandering in some of their rhetoric - the headquarters branch of the 
TRT in particular is ultra-Zionist, with its members sometimes 
appearing in public with yellow Stars of David reading "gun owner" in 
an attempt to link the current conflict between gun owners and the US 
government with the conflict between Jews and the German Third Reich 
- they serve as a bridge for gun owners who don't want to engage in 
the compromising, pro-Republican politics of the NRA, but who also 
reject the more extreme step of joining armed formations that openly 
challenge the power of the central government - groups like the 
Southern Indiana Regional Militia.

A Case Study In Radical Growth

Recently, in Montgomery County, Maryland, a relatively affluent 
suburb of Washington, DC, the local government attempted to ban gun 
shows - large, open exhibitions where guns and traded and sold on 
tables set up at the local fairgrounds. The result was a series of 
protests that destroyed the local NRA organization, led to the 
radicalization of its local head, and which left a definite imprint 
on local politics.

Augustus Alzona, an official in the Maryland Republican Party Central 
Committee, and the head of the County NRA's lobbying division at the 
time (NRA-ILA), was incensed at the decision of local officials to 
ban trading in guns. When he heard that a hearing was planned, he 
began organizing members to show up and protest the government's 
decision.

But Greg Costa, the NRA's official lobbyist in the State of Maryland, 
was equally incensed at Alzona's decision to hold protests. Costa 
views the NRA as a "moderate" and "non-confrontational" organization, 
and decided to make his legislative priority in the state not a 
pending local ban on gun shows, but stopping a noise ordinance that 
would have threatened a business investment he had made in a local 
shooting range. He ordered Alzona not to hold protests, and when 
Alzona refused, Costa fired him from his position in the NRA:

"I told him I didn't want them to protest and he wouldn't listen. I 
can't have people doing what I tell them not to do," Costa told a 
Pravda source.

The meeting collapsed in a raucous bout as pro-gun protestors 
threatened to shoot local Councilmembers if they passed the 
legislation. Local news media focused on the role of the Tyranny 
Response Team in the protests, though the truth was that most of the 
anger came from more radical elements not affiliated with the TRT 
group. For Alzona, it was a decisive moment. He took on a new role in 
the TRT Maryland group as its Volunteer Media Coordinator. Regarding 
the NRA, he told Pravda that Costa was a liar, and that his 
non-involvement in activism was a motivator for this defection:

"I've never spoken to [Costa] regarding the gun show bill and any of 
it's ramifications - never have, so far. I did try to reach him to 
discuss last February's hearing a week before the Šhearing, but, 
never did."

And Alzona isn't the only Maryland activist that sees the NRA and its 
lobby as ineffective, unreachable, and out of touch. John Latham, a 
gun activist who joined the NRA in the wake of the anti-gun hysteria 
that followed the Columbine shootings, decided to move over to the 
TRT as well. He has now declared he is running for the State 
Legislature as an Independent in Maryland's 16th legislative 
district, and told Pravda he left the NRA because he grew tired of 
the people and their perspective on what gun rights activism means:

"A man reaches a certain age he decides he wants to have a club," 
Latham told Pravda, "I don't consider that real activism Š that's a 
club, not a lobby."

The Real Activists

The Southern Poverty Law Center, a rather shady group of lawyers who 
make profit by suing organizations they label as "hateful", has been 
reporting that the number of "militia" groups active in the United 
States has been declining. Unfortunately, their research is badly 
skewed, as they count as a "militia" group anyone who opens a post 
office box and declares themselves a one-man "militia". Other 
figures, such as those circulated by the ADL, a Jewish organization 
which is opposed to the private ownership of firearms, estimates that 
while the number of groups may be shrinking, this is due to a 
consolidation of activists in a smaller number of larger 
organizations, and that as many as one million Americans may be 
sympathetic to, and peripherally involved in, militia activity.

This has been evidenced as well by the "radicalization" of mainstream 
groups that share common views with the militias, but until recently 
have not shared the militia's extreme image and tactics. Southern 
groups - groups that represent the values of America's White Southern 
minority - have been particularly radicalized in recent months with 
the continuation of a campaign by the National Association for the 
Advancement of Colored People, a pro-black group with origins in the 
communist movement of the turn of the last century, to destroy public 
monuments to the Southern Revolution and to the Southern Nation - 
known as "Dixie" -- which existed from 1861-1865 during the American 
Civil War. With a heritage based in revolt against the US federal 
government, and with an often deeply held belief in the independence 
of the states and the decentralization of government power, views 
that motivate Southern political thinking and ideology have 
definitely exerted their influence over militia thinkers.

One militia group based in Southern values that recently drew 
attention was the Militia of Georgia, an armed formation consisting 
of what researchers claim is 300 men who operate in at least 20 cells 
throughout the state, which ordered its members to mobilize in the 
wake of the September 11 bombings, and to be on guard against 
attempts by the government to use the bombings to create a New World 
Order. The local commander, Jimmy Wynn, in a message to his 
membership wrote:

"When we cease to intervene in the affairs of every nation on earth, 
maybe some of these people will leave us alone. Š The WTC attack 
should be a WAKE UP CALL. I need each of you to become involved Š 
each of you needs to take preparedness seriously (we could go to war 
and it could reach our shores) Š The biggest thing we need is 
commitment: the commitment Š [to] prepare ourselves. THE TIME FOR 
ACTION IS NOW!!!"

The Potential For Separatism

America's Southerners aren't the only regional-ethnic groups seeking 
independence from the cosmopolitan internationalism of the nations' 
elite. Rural New Englanders have launched a "blood and soil" 
separatist movement of their own. Carolyn Chute's Second Maine 
Militia, a group that has mixed right-wing, left-wing, and green 
politics, as well as regional ethnic identity and national 
separatism, into a 500+ man armed formation based in Northern New 
England and Canada's eastern provinces, re-released a manifesto 
calling for people in New England and Canada to revolt and create a 
new nation - the New Atlantic Confederacy - independent of either 
government, should the impending war on terrorism cause the central 
government to lose the ability to maintain control in America's more 
remote rural areas. Her movement is explicitly pro-gun and 
anti-capitalist, and deals regularly with other "right-wing" militia 
organization active in the area. As Chute put it in a 2000 interview:

"Behind all those urban killings are people created by the Great 
Progressive Society. These people are not revolting against the Great 
Progressive Society. They are raw imitations of the Great Progressive 
Society. We are led to believe that the professional middle class are 
the winners, the working class are the losers. Š As I see it, class 
is about values, dependence and ways of communicating. The working 
class person values place, interdependence, cooperation, the tribe. 
Rural working class especially values land. Many of us would kill to 
keep our land, our home, which for thousands of years was not 
considered a crazy thing to do. Middle-class professionals are into 
"success" and they are a dependent people, happily dependent on the 
consumer system for everything. You call it independence. But if you 
lost your electricity, your service people, your access to stores, 
you'd see how independent you are! Working-class people have become 
dependent on these things, too, but working-class values resent this 
dependency."

And Chute's movement is growing. She recently joked that she could 
probably maintain 1500 men under arms in the State of Maine alone "if 
she could keep up with the mail", and in a state of emergency, the 
number of women seeking protection under arms from ready formations 
would likely swell those ranks.

With groups like Chute's growing in every state of the Union, and the 
central government growing more and more willing to enact the kind of 
emergency measures that these groups are willing to fight against, 
the potential for wide-spread confrontation, and wide-spread revolt, 
particularly in the context of a break-down of government control 
caused by massive terrorist attacks, is growing.

Domestic Unrest and Anthrax

As the US has continued to see its media and government institutions 
attacked by anthrax-infected letters, a debate has raged over who is 
responsible. The Zionist-dominated US media has used the attacks as 
an excuse to implicate Iraq, though that effort seems to be motivated 
more by political gain than the actual facts. Though Iraq was found 
by UN weapons inspectors, during the 1990s, to have built two missile 
warheads with liquid anthrax payloads, the weapons were discounted by 
US experts as "ineffective", and Iraq is not known to have the 
ability to create the refined powder form of anthrax being used in 
the recent attacks. In fact, that ability exists in only two 
organizations in two countries - the US and Russian governments.

The US federal government also appears to believe in the domestic 
terror theory. Recently, the Center for Disease Control re-released a 
1999 report authored by Jessica Stern of the Council of Foreign 
Relations, stating that most anthrax threats in the United States are 
linked to "far-right militia" organizations. Certainly, some of the 
recent scares, including the mailing of over 100 bogus threat letters 
to Planned Parenthood clinics, match the "far-right militia" pattern. 
But the possibility that the actual anthrax cases are linked to 
militia groups has been seized on by social democratic political 
lobbyists in an attempt to turn the US "war on terrorism" against 
dissident groups back at home. Australian terrorism "specialist" 
Clive Williams recently told the Times of India with utmost 
confidence:

"I think the first instances of [the anthrax threats], the ones 
involving media, were more likely to have been caused by extremist 
militia in the US who have shown an interest in anthrax in the past 
and tried to acquire it. The subsequent instances were basically 
copy-cat episodes by mentally unbalanced people."
But no US militia group is known to posses the refined, military form 
of anthrax being used against the US media and government, and most 
US militia groups are more concerned with defending themselves 
against anthrax than spreading it in such a way that their families 
and communities might be affected. That leaves a third possibility - 
that the recent anthrax attacks have been committed by members of the 
US political establishment against other members of that 
establishment - a theory boosted by the revelation that two of the 
most recent victims - Tom Brokaw and Tom Daschle - are apparently 
good friends who's families know each other and often vacation 
together in the Dakotas.

In short, it appears more likely at this point that the recent string 
of anthrax threats in the US is the result of a deterioration of the 
internal political situation, than of an outside threat to the 
integrity of the nation. The question of whether it is related to the 
growing armed dissent against the central government is open however, 
as it may simply be a manifestation of political factions using 
instability as an excuse for assassination.

Conclusion: America's Militia Movement Is Not To Be Discounted

It is clear that the rural people of American - the mostly white 
population descended from the original European settlers of the 
nation - have become alienated from the cosmopolitan blend of urban 
white liberals and their train of ethnically defined special 
interests that have gained control of America's cities. One only has 
to look at a map of who voted for George Bush and who voted for Al 
Gore to see that a clear divide has occurred between the values of 
the country's elite and their lackeys, and the real working people of 
the nation.

America's white working class, so long reviled by the intellectuals 
and the clique that control the government, has been organizing 
itself into regional-ethnically based citizen militias that are 
prepared to fight to restore the values of their ancestor's 
revolution two hundred and twenty five years ago. For the first time 
in a century, more of America's white population lives in rural areas 
than in it's cities, and that demographic change is only one 
indicator of the larger, more widely spread divide.

Should the American nation fracture, whether due to a massive 
terrorist attack, the repressive domestic policies of its government, 
or a combination of both, it is clear that there are thousands, if 
not tens of thousands, of Americans who are already organized in 
paramilitary armed formation for the goal of seizing power and 
restoring the Constitutional Republic that they feel progressive 
liberalism has lost them.

Osama bin Laden has said that he feels that terrorist attacks can 
create enough instability in America that forces that already want to 
change the course of the government will see it weakened enough that 
an opportunity to act will emerge. With the growing divorce between 
an imperial government of usurpation and the nation's original 
Constitutional principles, bin Laden may not be far off.
you may discuss the article in our forum


Copyright ©1999 by "Pravda.RU". When reproducing our materials in 
whole or in part, reference to Pravda.RU should be made.

**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
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Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722  ICQ: 106212065   Archived at 
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**************************************************************************




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Fri Oct 26 11:32:22 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 11:32:22 -0700
Subject: obit
Message-ID: <3BD9AC36.ABA459F8@lsil.com>


Tim,

Re: the death of the fourth.

Yer list is too short.

R.I.P. : I, IV, V, VI, VIII

The obit may be premature but they're certainly on their respective
deathbeds. Don't expect the docs from the Judicial branch to effect a
cure - they've administered some pretty nearly lethal doses in the past.

II? Well, it's an obvious target, to keep weapons out of the hands of
terrorists don't you know. Never mind the fact that only about 2-3% of
incoming containers are inspected at ports of entry...

Instead of fixing cabin partitions, updating training scenarios, adding
cctv and a sky marshall we get Big Brother and his database ranger
proctologist squad.

Instead of improved customs and immigration inspections we get Heinrich
Himmler and his boys in black inspecting the motherland.

Now that the formalities are out of the way I want to see what Himmler
actually does in his new found meat suit.

As far as colors on maps, any distinction between red and blue is
imaginary, the recent voting rolls show the true colors - mostly yellow,
with some red, white and black arm bands.

ITBAWC
OCDLRO
WU LEG
 F  CN
    KI
    ET
    DI
     O
     N

Having trouble keeping my breakfast down, 
Mike




From georgemw at speakeasy.net  Fri Oct 26 13:11:03 2001
From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 13:11:03 -0700
Subject: Where The Torture Never Stops... 
In-Reply-To: <200110261951.PAA10332@mail.lokmail.net>
Message-ID: <3BD960E7.20490.E103F6@localhost>


On 26 Oct 2001, at 15:51, Faustine wrote:


> I'll never know if I made a difference, but it's the idea that counts.
> 
> 
> ~Faustine.
>    
That's an incredibly fucked-up thing to say,
even for you.

George




From measl at mfn.org  Fri Oct 26 11:11:37 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 13:11:37 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Where The Torture Never Stops...
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, Duncan Frissell wrote:

> Besides, "Prison is not punishment to the literate."

Please tell me this is not meant as it reads.  I keep trying, but seem
unable to find anything but a straight reading..

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From ben at algroup.co.uk  Fri Oct 26 05:23:36 2001
From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 13:23:36 +0100
Subject: [linux-elitists] W3C last call on XML Encryption... (fwd)
References: 
Message-ID: <3BD955C8.2D8B6572@algroup.co.uk>


Of course, the W3C doesn't allow the likes of us to participate in their
cartel, so I fail to see why we should help defend their profits by
analysing their protocols before they are widely and expensively
deployed. Perhaps that will aid them in seeing the error of their ways.

Cheers,

Ben.

Eugene Leitl wrote:
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 11:32:53 -0400
> From: Dan York 
> To: linux-elitists 
> Subject: [linux-elitists] W3C last call on XML Encryption...
> 
> FYI, the W3C has issued a last call for comments on several
> proposals related to XML encryption.  More info at:
> 
>   http://www.w3.org/Encryption/2001/
> 
> Since I know a good number of folks on this list are interested
> in encryption and Internet communication, I thought I would pass
> it along as it involves encrypting XML, much of which will no
> doubt be passed across the Internet.
> 
> The specific documents are at:
> 
>   XML Encryption Requirements
>      http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-encryption-req
> 
>      This document lists the design principles, scope, and requirements
>      for the XML Encryption. It includes requirements as they relate to
>      the encryption syntax, data model, format, cryptographic processing,
>      and external requirements and coordination.
> 
>   XML Encryption Syntax and Processing
>      http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlenc-core/
> 
>      This document specifies a process for encrypting data and
>      representing the result in XML. The data may be arbitrary data
>      (including an XML document), an XML element, or XML element
>      content. The result of encrypting data is an XML Encryption element
>      which contains or references the cipher data.
> 
>   Decryption Transform for XML Signature
>      http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlenc-decrypt
> 
>      This document specifies the "decryption transform", which enables
>      XML Signatures verification even if both signature and encryption
>      operations are performed on an XML document.
> 
> Dan
> 
> --
> Dan York, Director of Training, Network Server Solutions Group
> Mitel Networks Corporation                  dan_york at mitel.com
> Ph: +1-613-751-4401 Cell: +1-613-263-4312 Fax: +1-613-564-7739
> 150 Metcalfe Street, Suite 1500, Ottawa,ON K2P 1P1 Canada
> http://www.e-smith.com/         http://www.mitel.com/sme/
> _______________________________________________
> linux-elitists
> http://zgp.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-elitists
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> The Cryptography Mailing List
> Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com

--
http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html

"There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he
doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff




From frissell at panix.com  Fri Oct 26 10:36:16 2001
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 13:36:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Where The Torture Never Stops...
In-Reply-To: <200110260736.HAA06506@divert.sendon.net>
Message-ID: 




On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, Steve Thompson wrote:

> That would be my view.  After all, mistakes do happen and so we should all be
> understanding of our and their all-too-human failings which occasionaly lead
> to minor inconveniences.


Besides, "Prison is not punishment to the literate."

DCF
----
"Laws that target 100% of the population to control the behavior
of 0.001% are also seldom productive, not least because they tell the
0.001% how not to get caught." --- WSJ Editorial 26 October 2001




From frissell at panix.com  Fri Oct 26 10:48:01 2001
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 13:48:01 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: James Glassman wants national IDs: "We have to give up"
  privacy
In-Reply-To: <20011025222858.A22838@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: 


On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> [You can see James Glassman's bio here:
> http://www.techcentralstation.com/Bios.asp?FormMode=Bio&ID=6 His column is
> not merely poorly-reasoned, but poorly researched as well: He makes some
> factual errors, such as saying the lack of a national ID card makes the
> U.S. "almost unique."  Try Canada, New Zealand, Australia, Ireland, the
> Nordic countries, Sweden, Mexico, and so on. --Declan]

And most significantly - the UK.  In spite of recent rumors....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk_politics/newsid_1572000/1572026.stm

DCF
----

"Afridis have curious ideas as to the laws of hospitality; it is no
uncommon thing for them to murder their guests in cold blood, but it is
contrary to their code of honor to surrender a fugitive who has claimed
asylum with them." -- .ROBERTS, (Field-Marshal, Lord, of Kandahar).
FORTY-ONE YEARS IN INDIA from Subaltern to Commander-in-Chief... London:
Bentley, 1897.  Vol I Pg 32.  [The author was the last foreign general to
defeat the Afghanis.]




From keyser-soze at hushmail.com  Fri Oct 26 14:05:04 2001
From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 14:05:04 -0700
Subject: Where The Torture Never Stops...
Message-ID: <200110262105.f9QL54871285@mailserver1.hushmail.com>


Many on this list should consider themselves candidates for free speech persecution.  I plan to treat my situation as would a person facing a "three-strikes" incarceration for a petty crime and suggest you all do the same.  If LEs should up for questioning I will treat them as the "security operatives" from Tim's quote of Alexander Solzhenitzyn's, "Gulag Archipelago."

At 03:41 PM 10/26/2001 -0400, Matthew Gaylor wrote:
At 1:36 PM -0400 10/26/01, Duncan Frissell wrote:
Besides, "Prison is not punishment to the literate."

DCF
----

Of course you may have to read standing up until you get used to it.

Regards,  Matt-


Rape used as control in U.S. prisons

<

By NEVE GORDON
National Catholic Reporter, September 14, 2001

Many prisoners are targeted for sexual exploitation the minute they enter a
penal facility; their age, looks, sexual preference and other
characteristics mark them as candidates for maltreatment. In a new
groundbreaking report, Human Rights Watch documents the widespread
prisoner-on-prisoner rape in U.S. men's prisons. The rights group accuses
state authorities of not taking measures to prevent and punish rape and, in
many cases, for allowing this cruel form of abuse to persist.




From frissell at panix.com  Fri Oct 26 11:09:09 2001
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 14:09:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: The end of the Fourth Amendment
In-Reply-To: <5B1A9946-CA36-11D5-9E00-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: 


On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, Tim May wrote:

> On Friday, October 26, 2001, at 05:38 AM, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
> Too many totalitarian surveillance state measures to comment on, but the
> "sneak and peek" provision is such a slam dunk violation of the Fourth
> Amendment that it bears special comment.
>

Unfortunately, the Fourth doesn't ban secret searches it just bans
warrantless ones.  And that ban was destroyed years ago:

UNITED STATES v. MILLER, 425 U.S. 435 (1976)

http://laws.findlaw.com/us/425/435.html

Held: Respondent possessed no Fourth Amendment interest in the bank
records that could be vindicated by a challenge to the subpoenas, and the
District Court therefore did not err in denying the motion to suppress.
Pp. 440-446.

Since then most of our "papers and effects" have been open to warrantless
searches.

Any good computer mechanics out there who can rig an electro-mechanical
interface for a computer-actuated spring gun.  Double-barreled shotgun
pointed at the keyboard.  Enter the right passphrase within 30 seconds of
starting your session or be splattered across the monitor.

DCF
----
"If you want to accurately foretell the future, predict war.  You'll
always be right." -- Robert Heinlein Worldcon 1976.




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Fri Oct 26 14:12:52 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 14:12:52 -0700
Subject: Where The Torture Never Stops... 
In-Reply-To: <200110261951.PAA10332@mail.lokmail.net>
Message-ID: 


Faustine wrote:

> I've been donating books to a local women's
> prison for awhile: Ayn Rand, history books,
> old textbooks, etc. can go a long, long way.

A friend of mine just got out of federal prison.  I'll ask her what the
situation is.


 S a n d y




From info at giganetstore.com  Fri Oct 26 06:15:06 2001
From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 14:15:06 +0100
Subject: Venha conhecer-nos !!
Message-ID: <0dc170615131aa1WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com>

 
Viva! 
Temos o prazer de o(a) convidar a visitar a primeira loja física
giganetstore.com   na 
Av. Defensores de Chaves, n.º 73-B em Lisboa.
Venha conhecer-nos!!
Um espaço inovador que lhe permite realizar as suas compras de três
formas distintas, sempre com aconselhamento personalizado: 
- Na própria loja, na Internet e ainda na TV Interactiva.
Criámos ainda uma nova modalidade de entrega, o levantamento de
encomendas na nossa loja, opção que poderá seleccionar durante o
processo de checkout e que isenta as suas encomendas de portes.
Porque a sua comodidade é importante, esperamos por si!
 
         
         
         
Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site
http:\\www.giganetstore.com  , ir à edição
do seu registo e retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das nossas
promoções e novos serviços
  
  
  
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From stevet at sendon.net  Fri Oct 26 07:18:54 2001
From: stevet at sendon.net (Steve Thompson)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 14:18:54 +0000
Subject: America is beyond salvation
References: <24E6B4F8-C9CF-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net> 
Message-ID: <200110261447.OAA23628@divert.sendon.net>



Quoting Blanc (blancw at cnw.com):
> Speaking of taking up full responsibility for one's preferred lifestyle, it
> makes me think that it will be an oddly strange, science-fiction kind of
> existence that some of us will be operating in, in the future, trying to
> survive and achieve our ambitions in between weasels, dogs of war, and
> missile fire.  Something between "A Boy and his Dog", "Mad Max", and
> "Neuromancer".

That should be massivly entertaining for some people, and not quite so
entertaining for others.  Imagine the collateral damage of hundreds or even a
few thousand people with nothing to lose taking out their fustrations in the
malls and workplaces of America -- a sweet deal for the LEAs, to be sure.


Regards,

Steve

-- 
Oldthinkers unbellyfeel Ingsoc.




From measl at mfn.org  Fri Oct 26 12:21:44 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 14:21:44 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Where The Torture Never Stops...
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011026150147.031264c0@brillig.panix.com>
Message-ID: 



This "worldview" of your makes a point of deying the reality of the
situation under disussion.  It's difficult to enjoy reading "all the
worlds scriptures" when you need to spend most of your time insuring your
pyhsical *survival*.  You have absolutely no concept of our prisons, do
you?

On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, Duncan Frissell wrote:

> Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 15:14:03 -0400
> From: Duncan Frissell 
> To: measl at mfn.org, cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> Subject: Re: Where The Torture Never Stops...
> 
> At 01:11 PM 10/26/01 -0500, measl at mfn.org wrote:
> >On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, Duncan Frissell wrote:
> >
> > > Besides, "Prison is not punishment to the literate."
> >
> >Please tell me this is not meant as it reads.  I keep trying, but seem
> >unable to find anything but a straight reading..
> 
> "Otium sine litteris mors est. -- Lucius Annaeus Seneca
> 
> But *with* literature, it's great.
> 
> Unfortunately, some prisons deny a wide choice of reading matter to their 
> inmates but as long as you declare yourself a Baha'i upon entry, you get to 
> read all the world's scriptures (including the complete works of L. Ron 
> Hubbard).
> 
> DCF
> 
> ----
> [1] And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
> [3} ... but, my lord the king, are they not all my lord's servants? why 
> then doth my lord require this thing? why will he be a cause of trespass to 
> Israel?
> [7] And God was displeased with this thing; therefore he smote Israel. 1 
> Chronicles 21.
> 
> 

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From hopefully543 at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 26 14:24:20 2001
From: hopefully543 at yahoo.com (hopefully543 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 14:24:20 -0700
Subject: Mortgage Rates Are LOW!!!
Message-ID: <3hwv2.050q0ba23d@slip-12-64-224-212.mis.prserv.net>


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From send_mail00 at yahoo.com.hk  Fri Oct 26 14:44:00 2001
From: send_mail00 at yahoo.com.hk (send_mail00 at yahoo.com.hk)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 14:44:00
Subject: ͤ.a.ߨƶɶD
Message-ID: 



�U��k�k�̡A�٦b�W���@�]���ܡH�Ӳ֤F�a�I

�@�]����ͬ۬���ѫ�

�A�٦b���C����50����0204�ܡH

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�u�W��͡D�q���౵�D������K�D�����ۤF�ѡD�ѲL�J�`  




From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Fri Oct 26 12:54:27 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 14:54:27 -0500
Subject: [Fwd: [biofuel] VW presents new synthetic fuel strategy]
References: <3BD716D3.D822DC6D@cybershamanix.com>
  <3BD80563.CA321DF3@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <3BD9BF50.4975FC4E@cybershamanix.com>


Ken Brown wrote:

> The reason we use mineral oils from the ground is that they are
> *cheaper*.

     Not true.

>
>
> If the price of a barrel of crude oil rises above somewhere between 30
> and 60 dollars (depending on who you believe), then coal and  oilshale
> become cheaper & we can switch to that. If the price of mineral fuels
> rises above somewhere between 50 and 100 dollars per equivalent of a
> barrel of oil, then using liquid fuel derived from agriculture becomes
> cheaper.
>

       Biodiesel is being sold in the US as we speak for anywhere from $.99
to $2.50 a gallon, depending upon whether it's made from waste or virgin
vegetable oil. Given the economies of scale working here, once they build
up a larger presence, those prices will drop. And, if I'm not mistaken,
much of Europe is already mandating that all diesel be sold with at least
20% biodiesel.
        You might also look at Brazil which fuels a large portion of it's
vehicles with ethanol already.
          VW's new fuel will be even cheaper.

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver at cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Fri Oct 26 15:00:40 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 15:00:40 -0700
Subject: Mag Card Readers
Message-ID: <3BD9DD08.557994FC@lsil.com>


www.digkey.com - search for "magnetic reader"




From frissell at panix.com  Fri Oct 26 12:14:03 2001
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 15:14:03 -0400
Subject: Where The Torture Never Stops...
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011026150147.031264c0@brillig.panix.com>


At 01:11 PM 10/26/01 -0500, measl at mfn.org wrote:
>On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, Duncan Frissell wrote:
>
> > Besides, "Prison is not punishment to the literate."
>
>Please tell me this is not meant as it reads.  I keep trying, but seem
>unable to find anything but a straight reading..

"Otium sine litteris mors est. -- Lucius Annaeus Seneca

But *with* literature, it's great.

Unfortunately, some prisons deny a wide choice of reading matter to their 
inmates but as long as you declare yourself a Baha'i upon entry, you get to 
read all the world's scriptures (including the complete works of L. Ron 
Hubbard).

DCF

----
[1] And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
[3} ... but, my lord the king, are they not all my lord's servants? why 
then doth my lord require this thing? why will he be a cause of trespass to 
Israel?
[7] And God was displeased with this thing; therefore he smote Israel. 1 
Chronicles 21.




From frissell at panix.com  Fri Oct 26 12:17:24 2001
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 15:17:24 -0400
Subject: Pravda Propaganda On The NRA, GOA and Militias
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
  
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011026151502.05ac26c0@brillig.panix.com>


At 10:51 AM 10/26/01 -0700, j eric townsend wrote:
>AIt's been done that way for years on television vote tallies.  They never 
>use, say, purple and orange, almost always red and blue (and green, I 
>think for independents).  I'm not sure, but I think GOP has always been 
>red and Dems have always been blue.
>--


But the colors are backwards.  As in the UK, the party of the Left should 
be Red and the party of the Right blue.

Color of communism v the color of patriotism.

DCF


----
"In 1776, fewer than 10% of Americans owned firearms.  This proves that the 
American gun culture of today is an evil creation of gun manufacturers and 
the NRA."
"In 1776 fewer than 10% of Americans owned a coach and four.  This proves 
that the American car culture of today is an evil creation of General 
Motors and the AAA."




From ign at ign.com  Fri Oct 26 15:18:39 2001
From: ign at ign.com (ign at ign.com)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 15:18:39 PDT
Subject: Win an Xbox(tm) at participating TACO BELL(R) stores!
References: 
Message-ID: 

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From stevet at sendon.net  Fri Oct 26 08:32:49 2001
From: stevet at sendon.net (Steve Thompson)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 15:32:49 +0000
Subject: Where The Torture Never Stops...
References: <200110260736.HAA06506@divert.sendon.net> 
Message-ID: <200110261544.PAA27392@divert.sendon.net>



Quoting measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org):
> 
> On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, Steve Thompson wrote:
> 
> > That would be my view.  After all, mistakes do happen and so we should all be
> > understanding of our and their all-too-human failings which occasionaly lead
> > to minor inconveniences.
> 
> "minor inconveniences"???  Never been in so much as a holding pen I
> see.  Maybe you should ask to tour your nearest facility, just to get
> enough information to evaluate the relative "inconvenience" of this
> scenario - your current view is *totally* unrealistic.

I suppose I could be naive.


Regards,

Steve

-- 
Oldthinkers unbellyfeel Ingsoc.




From freematt at coil.com  Fri Oct 26 12:41:25 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 15:41:25 -0400
Subject: Where The Torture Never Stops...
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 


At 1:36 PM -0400 10/26/01, Duncan Frissell wrote:
>Besides, "Prison is not punishment to the literate."
>
>DCF
>----

Of course you may have to read standing up until you get used to it.

Regards,  Matt-


Rape used as control in U.S. prisons

<

By NEVE GORDON
National Catholic Reporter, September 14, 2001

Many prisoners are targeted for sexual exploitation the minute they enter a
penal facility; their age, looks, sexual preference and other
characteristics mark them as candidates for maltreatment. In a new
groundbreaking report, Human Rights Watch documents the widespread
prisoner-on-prisoner rape in U.S. men's prisons. The rights group accuses
state authorities of not taking measures to prevent and punish rape and, in
many cases, for allowing this cruel form of abuse to persist.

One reads that in extreme incidents prisoners find themselves the "slaves"
of their rapists. Forced to satisfy another man's sexual appetites upon
demand, they may also be responsible for washing his clothes, massaging his
back, cooking his food and cleaning his cell. They are frequently "rented
out" for sex services, sold or even auctioned off to other inmates.

One prisoner from Arkansas wrote to Human Rights Watch: "I had no choice
but to submit to being Inmate B's prison wife. Out of fear for my life, I
submitted to [him]. In all reality, I was his slave, as the Officials of
the Arkansas Department of Corrections 
 did absolutely nothing."

"Rapes are unimaginably vicious and brutal," writes Joanne Mariner, deputy
director of the Americas division of Human Rights Watch, and author of "No
Escape: Male Rape in U.S. Prisons." Gang assaults are not uncommon, and
victims may be left beaten, bloody and even dead; they almost always suffer
from extreme psychological stress, including nightmares, deep depression,
shame and self-hatred, which may lead to suicide. There are also known
cases whereby the victim has contracted HIV.

No conclusive national data exists regarding the prevalence of this
phenomenon, but the most recent statistical survey, published in the Prison
Journal, revealed that 21 percent of inmates in seven Midwestern prisons
had experienced at least one episode of pressured or forced sex since being
incarcerated, and at least 7 percent had been raped in their facility.

Correctional authorities generally deny that rape is a serious problem. In
Human Rights Watch's survey of all 50 states, not one correctional
authority reported abuse rates even approaching those found by the rights
group. The authorities' reluctance to acknowledge the scale of the
violation is reflected not only in misleading official statistics, but also
in a glaringly inadequate response to incidents of rape.

When an inmate informs an officer he has been threatened with rape or,
worse, actually assaulted, his complaint is seldom investigated, and only
in rare instances is an inmate protected from further abuse. "U.S. state
prisons have failed to take even obvious, basic steps necessary to tackle
prison rape," Mariner writes. "This deliberate indifference has had tragic
consequences."

In the report, one reads of M.R., a Texas inmate who was violently raped
and beaten several times over a period of several months by the same
prisoner. Fearful for his life, he reported the abuse to the prison
authorities, but received no protection. In fact one investigator dismissed
the complaint as a "lovers' quarrel." Finally one day the rapist showed up
in M.R.'s cell and attacked him. M.R. suffered a broken jaw, left
collarbone and finger, a dislocated left shoulder, lacerations to his scalp
and two major concussions that caused internal bleeding. The rapist was
never criminally prosecuted.

Why, one might ask, do prison authorities turn a blind eye to this horrific
phenomenon?  While Human Rights Watch does not directly deal with this
issue, it appears that the authorities' lack of response is premeditated.
Rape is an effective, albeit ruthless, mechanism of inmate control.

By allowing rape to go on, the "correctional" authorities ensure that
prisoner violence is contained within the cells. Frustrated prisoners are
permitted to release aggression on condition that they direct it against
other inmates, not the authorities. That the victims, who comprise as much
as 20 percent of 2 million inmates held in U.S. prisons and jail, live in
perpetual fear is also conducive to control. Divide and conquer is the name
of the game; the fact that it amounts to horrendous violations of human
rights does not really interest the prison authorities.
----------
Neve Gordon teaches in the department of politics and government at Ben
Gurion University, Israel.


**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week)
Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722  ICQ: 106212065   Archived at 
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**************************************************************************




From measl at mfn.org  Fri Oct 26 13:42:41 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 15:42:41 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Where The Torture Never Stops... 
In-Reply-To: <200110261951.PAA10332@mail.lokmail.net>
Message-ID: 



On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, Faustine wrote:

> Yep. So why not do a little something about it? I've been donating books
> to a local women's prison for awhile: Ayn Rand, history books, old textbooks,
> etc. can go a long, long way. Go to the local library sale and load up on the
> fifty cent hardbacks, ten cent classic paperbacks--such a small investment
> when you think of the good that might come of it. Magazine subscriptions are
> probably worth looking into, too. I was meaning to do that myself, thanks
> for the reminder. 
> 
> Of course "what you REALLY need" is in the eye of the beholder, but 
> if more literate, concerned people at least made an effort to get what
> THEY would want to read into the prisons,it could only be a good thing.
> 
> I'll never know if I made a difference, but it's the idea that counts.

If you want to "make a difference", why not spend those dollars at a
prison rights organization?

> ~Faustine.

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From faustine at lokmail.net  Fri Oct 26 12:51:12 2001
From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 15:51:12 -0400
Subject: Where The Torture Never Stops... 
Message-ID: <200110261951.PAA10332@mail.lokmail.net>

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From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Fri Oct 26 08:09:52 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 16:09:52 +0100
Subject: Torture Never Stops..
References: <0e9feebcd8b43371493599cbd77782cf@dizum.com>
Message-ID: <3BD97CBF.A9CAD2C7@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


One of the many instantiations of Nomen Nescio (whose name is Legion)
wrote:

[...]

> Anyways, I dont think this will effect
> mainstream Americans and the odd cypherpunk
> thrown in among them. Unless that cpunk
> happens to be Middle Eastern, and guilty
> of something previously determined to
> be suspect.

You probably have no idea how much this makes my flesh creep

> But in the long run will we, considering
> ourselves Freedom Advocates (believe it
> or not, I consider myself one), 

Oh, I believe it. You do consider yourself one. You are sadly deluded
though, and not only about the difference between "affect" and "effect".

[...]

> I am not willing to give up ANYTHING for my
> freedom...
> But then again, I dont have screwy
> immigration documents that would cause anyone
> to want to usurp my individual freedoms.

This is a troll, right?

> I will not give up encryption, or privacy.



Ken Brown




From stevet at sendon.net  Fri Oct 26 09:17:13 2001
From: stevet at sendon.net (Steve Thompson)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 16:17:13 +0000
Subject: Assasination politics 3,Terra Australis
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20011027015237.00aa8820@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <200110261630.QAA30001@divert.sendon.net>



Quoting mattd (mattd at useoz.com):
> Professor fights like a cornered rat...AP trial 3?...can this be the end of 
> RICO.
> 
> Previously unpublished
> by macedon ranges gaurdian 11:11pm Fri Oct 26 '01
> 
> 
> A dead tree story that has just been collated.Relevance is the seizing by 
> police of citizens laptop and holding for nearly 5 months without charges 
> presented.
> M1 PROTESTER GIVEN BAIL-BUT OTHER POLICE INTERESTED

The Australian Federal Police sound as though they are being maliciously
incompetent.  Copying a laptop hard-drive should take no more than about an
hour; and they aren't going to boot the laptop in order to inspect it for
obvious reasons.


Regards,

Steve

-- 
Oldthinkers unbellyfeel Ingsoc.




From faustine at lokmail.net  Fri Oct 26 13:55:35 2001
From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 16:55:35 -0400
Subject: Where The Torture Never Stops...
Message-ID: <200110262055.QAA02746@mail.lokmail.net>

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From anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org  Fri Oct 26 15:08:01 2001
From: anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org (Incognito Innominatus)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 17:08:01 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Cryptography and the Present Crisis
Message-ID: 


Cypherpunks are forgetting everything they are supposed to know.
Does anyone remember why this list was formed?  Does the "cypher" in
cypherpunk mean anything?  Has anyone considered whether there is a role
for crypto technology in the face of the current threats to civil rights?

These new laws are a perfect opportunity to promote the message of
cryptography for privacy.  Virtually all of the provisions which have
cypherpunks wailing in despair can be easily circumvented by the use of
crypto technology.  And every trial balloon floated to limit or ban crypto
has been shot down instantly, so full of holes that it will never fly.

Carnivore will be deployed to snoop on email?  Simple, use PGP/GPG.

Carnivore used for "trap and trace" address gathering?  Simple, use
remailers to disguise the patterns of who you are communicating with.

Legitimate criticism of U.S. government potentially interpreted
as supporting terrorism?  Simple, make your points anonymously or
pseudonymously and be free from the fear of prosecution.

Every one of these policies is an opportunity, not a threat.  To the
extent that these crackdowns engender concern about privacy violations
from a growing segment of the population, this is a chance for cypherpunks
to spread their knowledge and their technology.  You don't have to be
a paranoid any more to be afraid that the government is spying on you.
John Ashcroft himself boasts that Big Government will be watching.

Cypherpunks should be taking advantage of this opportunity to promote
their message of privacy through technology.  For the first time since
the group was formed, they can make a legitimate case that the threat
of government surveillance is increasing.  With the Bill of Rights
being tossed out the window and the AG openly admitting to bending the
rules to achieve his goals, a wide community is going to be receptive
to this message.

Of course there are presently substantial numbers who are caught up in
the collectivist urge and who might view attempts to protect privacy
as unpatriotic.  But this is a temporary phenomenon, already fading.
The flags which flew from every car and building in sight a few weeks ago
are disappearing.  Yet the Draconian new regulations will not go away.
Inevitably there will be a growing segment of the population which sees
the government as a fearsome threat.

It is time for cypherpunks to go back to their roots.  Let us put the
cypher back in cypherpunk.  There are other places where people can whine
about how evil congress is or fantasize about secession from the U.S.
Focus on crypto and what role it can play in the current crisis.  Believe
it or not, no one else is doing that.  No one in the world is speaking
out to say, here are tools which can circumvent the government's efforts
to take away our privacy.  If the cypherpunks don't do it, no one will.




From faustine at lokmail.net  Fri Oct 26 14:36:21 2001
From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 17:36:21 -0400
Subject: Where The Torture Never Stops...
Message-ID: <200110262136.RAA18662@mail.lokmail.net>

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From squid at panix.com  Fri Oct 26 14:38:55 2001
From: squid at panix.com (Yeoh Yiu)
Date: 26 Oct 2001 17:38:55 -0400
Subject: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 


Meyer Wolfsheim  writes:


> A friend of mine recently informed me that he has access to a mag-strip
> reader, and scanned several drivers' licenses (as well as Safeway cards
> and other random credit-card like items.)
> 
> Most contained the information displayed on the front of the card, and/or
> some seemingly random numbers (most likely, the ID numbers.)
> 
> California DL's have nothing interesting stored in that magstrip that
> isn't on the front of the card. And no, the signature isn't reflected in
> the magstrip.


They might store a long number and without a dictionary you
don't know what it means.  It's unlikely that older cards
would use and XMLish annoted data.

eg does

197202281800602
mean it belongs to a 180# 6'2" person born on Feb 28, 1972 ?

How could you tell ?

YY




From faustine at lokmail.net  Fri Oct 26 15:08:44 2001
From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 18:08:44 -0400
Subject: Where The Torture Never Stops...
Message-ID: <200110262208.SAA32495@mail.lokmail.net>

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From sandfort at mindspring.com  Fri Oct 26 18:40:14 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 18:40:14 -0700
Subject: BOOKS FOR PRISONERS
Message-ID: 


C'punks,

I heard back from my friend who was recently released from federal prison.
She wrote:

> The libraries in federal prisons are
> hideously inadequate largely because
> of the policy governing donations to
> federal prisons...State prisons,
> however, are a horse of a different
> color....Funny, but we [Laissez Faire
> Books] just offered 200+ unsellable
> books to Books For Prisoners and Long
> Haul in Berekely today...I'm working
> with an ex-con who is active with the
> LP in Cal to offer books to prisoners
> at a larger discount...

So, if you'd like to get some books into the prison system, you might talk
to your local Libertarian Party office or contact the Long Haul in Berkeley.


 S a n d y




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Fri Oct 26 19:08:41 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 19:08:41 -0700
Subject: Democratic critters' biochemwomdterror plans
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20011024153335.02681080@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011026190518.0375bc60@idiom.com>


At 03:33 PM 10/24/2001 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>* * * * * MEDIA ADVISORY * * * * *
>>
>>NEWS FROM THE OFFICE OF THE DEMOCRATIC LEADER

That's a bizarre enough title all by itself.
Of course, the Gepper isn't the Democratic Party Fearless Leader,
though he is the leader of the Congresscritters of the
Democratic Party.



>>______________________________________________________
>>
>>FOR IMMEDIATE 
>>RELEASE:                                                  House 
>>Democratic Leader Richard A. Gephardt
>>Wednesday, October 23, 2001 H-204, U.S. Capitol
>>
>>http://democraticleader.house.gov/
>>
>>GEPHARDT, MENENDEZ TO ANNOUNCE DEMOCRATIC BIOTERRORISM LEGISLATION

So are they in favor of it, or against it?



>>WASHINGTON, DC -- Rep. Bob Menendez (D-NJ), Vice Chair of the Democratic 
>>Caucus and
>>Chair of the Democratic Task Force on Homeland Security,

These titles keep sounding more and more like the Committee for State Security
or the Committee for Public Safety.

>>joined by Democratic Leader Richard Gephardt and Members of the Task 
>>Force, will announce the Democratic proposal to prepare and protect 
>>communities throughout America against future threats or attacks.
>>
>>The Democratic Bill, the Bioterrorism Protection Act (BioPAct) of 2001, 
>>seeks to eliminate biological threats, secure our borders on land and at 
>>sea, protect our food and water, equip our communities with the resources 
>>to prevent and respond to bioterrorism, and strengthen our Intelligence 
>>through full coordination, using our most advanced technology to fight 
>>bioterrorism.
>>
>>WHO: Gephardt, Menendez, Democratic Task Force on Homeland Security
>>WHAT: Democratic Bioterrorism Bill
>>WHEN: Thursday, October 25th, 10:00 a.m
>>WHERE: House Triangle
>>(This event will replace the usual stakeout following the Democratic Caucus)
>>                                ###




From stevet at sendon.net  Fri Oct 26 12:15:59 2001
From: stevet at sendon.net (Steve Thompson)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 19:15:59 +0000
Subject: Where The Torture Never Stops...
References: <200110260736.HAA06506@divert.sendon.net> 
Message-ID: <200110261952.TAA07332@divert.sendon.net>



Quoting Duncan Frissell (frissell at panix.com):
> 
> 
> On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, Steve Thompson wrote:
> 
> > That would be my view.  After all, mistakes do happen and so we should all be
> > understanding of our and their all-too-human failings which occasionaly lead
> > to minor inconveniences.
> 
> Besides, "Prison is not punishment to the literate."

What could be more obvious?


Regards,

Steve

-- 
Oldthinkers unbellyfeel Ingsoc.




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Fri Oct 26 19:51:19 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 19:51:19 -0700
Subject: a question
In-Reply-To: 
References: <20011024025328.98790.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011026192344.0375d720@idiom.com>


One of the fun things about the internet is that
you can't just put things behind you -
information is never forgotten unless it's useful.
There are flames I wrote on Usenet back in the early 80s archived;
if only it were as easy to find the useful stuff.
As the song says, "C'mon Joe, you can always change your name".


At 04:17 PM 10/24/2001 -0500, measl at mfn.org wrote:
>On Tue, 23 Oct 2001, (na) mshoe wrote:
>
> > I first want you to know I understand what you do but

If you did know, you'd have written to the people who run the
archives, not the people on the mailing list you once spammed,
not that either will erase it.  And there's more than one archive.

Looks like the Mitch's original "remove-me" request didn't make it to the 
lne.com list,
but it's in the inet-one archives.   Tim's reply included the spam.
The address of Mitch Shoemaker, the spammer, looks very much like
the address of
SHOEMAKER'S AUTO BODY  82  Iron St Rear N  Bloomsburg PA 17815 (717) 784-3585

which probably explains why none of the four listings in Anywho
have the same address as Mitch the spammer.
Shoemaker, Angie  90 Alexis Dr  BLOOMSBURG, PA 17815  570-389-1834
Shoemaker, Charles E  345 E 8 St  BLOOMSBURG, PA 17815  570-784-2690
Shoemaker, Paul  90 Alexis Dr  BLOOMSBURG, PA 17815  570-389-1834
Shoemaker, William L  918 E 7 St  BLOOMSBURG, PA 17815  570-784-1218

I'm guessing that the area code for Shoemaker's auto body is now 570.

> > I need to ask you to please remove the post from
> > http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.2001.05.07-2001.05.13/msg00330.html
>
>Information wants to be Free, Mitch.  Kinda sucks to be you, doesn't it?
>
> > I am only 16 and just wanted to get some money the
> > easy way at the time I had no idea that it was illegal.

You should have known that it was rude and deceptive,
and had some clue that the only way you can make money from it is
by getting a bunch of suckers to lose money.
Whether or not that's illegal is really a secondary issue.







From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Fri Oct 26 19:58:53 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 19:58:53 -0700
Subject: Conman, quantum entaglement and no cat
In-Reply-To: 
References: <002001c15ce5$43906fd0$ea3a080a@vaio>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011026195505.0335aec0@idiom.com>


At 04:56 PM 10/24/2001 -0700, Sandy Sandfort wrote:
>Lucky wrote:
>
> > It would have been more impressive had
> > Copperfield revealed the numbers he
> > predicted an hour /before/ the drawing...
>
>Yes, but that would have required REAL magic (or time travel).

Or rigging the lottery drawing, but surely *that's* never been done :-)
You can also simulate time travel through delayed transmission;
         cf: The Sting
for examples of that.  Probably wasn't done here, but it could have been,
and putting out a broadcast story of "Earlier today, The Amazing Bogomeister
successfully predicted the Powerball Lottery", showing Himself with
the clock in the background *clearly* indicating the time as
an hour before the real lottery drawing took place would reinforce it.




From ravage at ssz.com  Fri Oct 26 18:02:07 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 20:02:07 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: A Terrorist's Nursery (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3BD797EF.605CA7B3@mozcom.com>
Message-ID: 



No, I didn't. Please pay better attention to your attribution.


On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, F. Marc de Piolenc wrote:

> 
> 
> Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> 
> > But Nato's escape clause won't work this time round. For as the Afghan
> > refugees turn up in their thousands at the border, it is palpably evident
> > that they are fleeing not the Taliban but our bombs and missiles. The
> > Taliban is not ethnically cleansing its own Pashtun population. The refugees
> > speak vividly of their fear and terror as our bombs fall on their cities.
> > These people are terrified of our "war on terror'', victims as innocent as
> > those who were slaughtered in the World Trade Centre on 11 September. So
> > where do we stop?
> 
> Let's see - terrorism has to be accepted because it only kills our
> children on purpose; retaliation is evil because it sometimes kills
> theirs by accident. If we accept the moral equivalence of terror and
> retaliation, the question is not "where do we stop?" but "where do we
> begin?"
> 
> The right of self-defense is as fundamental as the right to life itself.
> Pacifists may comfort themselves with the fuzzy notion that meeting bin
> Laden's demands (and presumably the demands of every other two-bit
> killer with enough cash to buy a Kalashnikov and some plastique) will
> free us of the threat of terrorism; unfortunately, I have studied terror
> for 25 years and know better, so that comfort is denied me. 
> 
> The only real alternatives are (1) retaliate against the attackers, no
> matter who they are or where they lurk, or (2) accept that anybody with
> a grudge against people who are happier than he is has the prerogative
> of taking life with impunity.
> 
> Marc de Piolenc
> Philippines
> 
> 




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Fri Oct 26 20:05:13 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 20:05:13 -0700
Subject: A champion of liberty speaks about privacy, cash smuggling
In-Reply-To: 
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20011024191059.02020b30@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011026200330.03356680@idiom.com>


She said "interstate".  That's WITHIN the US, not even outside the country.
That means she wants you busted if you take cash across state lines
without reporting it to the Proper Authorities, who can of course
confiscate it as suspected drug money.  Fortunately, that failed.

You'll have to read the passed bill to find out whatever atrocious
things they've added to your ability to engage in foreign commerce.

At 07:48 PM 10/24/2001 -0700, John Kozubik wrote:
> >    The bill is not perfect. I am sorry that, for example, we excluded
> > making it a crime to smuggle over $10,000 interstate. We included it
> > for overseas, but it was not included for interstate. Nevertheless,
> > this is an excellent bill.
>
>Can someone clarify the definition, in this context, of "smuggling" ?
>Does this mean that $10,000 in cash can no longer be taken out of the
>country, or does it mean that it can no longer be taken out of the country
>in a secretive manner ?
>
>For as long as I have been traveling internationally, I have been required
>to declare all cash amounts larger than $10,000.  Does this mean that
>previously it was not a crime to not make such a declaration, and now it
>is ?
>
>-----
>John Kozubik - john at kozubik.com - http://www.kozubik.com




From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Fri Oct 26 20:25:54 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 20:25:54 -0700
Subject: Why Plan-9?
In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@einstein.ssz.com on Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 08:35:36PM -0500
References: <20011025120236.A26389@navel.introspect> 
Message-ID: <20011026202554.K15077@navel.introspect>

on Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 08:35:36PM -0500, Jim Choate (ravage at einstein.ssz.com) wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote:
> 
> > > Being 'first' doesn't imply they were 'alone'. You misrepresent
> > > reality to your own end.
> > 
> > Define your market or relevant niche, with specificity.
> 
> Computers intended for single-user interactive processing. 

The problem I've got with this response is that Unix and GNU/Linux
aren't computers, they're operating systems.  Unix was written to run on
those computers "that didn't exist", largely the PDP 7 and 11.

I was seeing the market as the *operating systems* running on these
computers.  While I'll concede that Unix and GNU/Linux probably drove
hardware, the fact is that both emerged in environments where there were
existing OSs running, almost always preinstalled, on the hardware of
choice for each system:  RSX-11D, TWENEX, VMS.  The Jargon file has
TWENEX users migrating to Unix in the 1980s.  For larger systms, VM/CMS
still has its fans.

I guess the question would be:  what other OSs were popular in research
environments at the time?  What benefits did Unix offer?  What timeframe
are we discussing?  Again, public availability of Unix seems to have
come after 1974.

> A new class of machines was coming out (my first machine was a PDP 8e
> running BASIC) and while there were plenty of tools they tended to be
> vertical in intent or else not general purpose enough for this sort of
> computing. Look at the first couple of years of Byte or Dr. Dobb's for
> more specific examples (remember Godbout?) in the personal computer
> market.

As I've indicated, I'm not as old as you think I am.  Unix and I are
close to the same age.  My real awareness starts in the early to mid
1980s, some exceptions.

Incidentally, if you want to remenisce, there's a DEC timeline here:

    http://www.montagar.com/dfwcug/VMS_HTML/timeline/1964-3.htm
    http://www.montagar.com/dfwcug/VMS_HTML/timeline/DECHISTORY.HTM

> Which happens to be one of the primary reasons Unix was developed,
> there were no realistic choices in the market for this paradigm. So a
> solution can trotting along.

I'm unconvinced.

Again, the PDP series, notably the '7 & '11, as well as the HP 3000,
stand out in searches as significant mini systems of the day.  I have to
assume they included operating systems.

And again, GNU/Linux emerged in a universe of PC operating systems:
DOS, Macintosh, OS/2, Xenix, Minix, BSDi.  

In both cases, the newcomer (Unix/Linux) emerged as a technically
inferior system, but (rapidly or otherwise) outpaced its competition due
to architecture, licensing, and social factors.

Regarding your comment (two posts back) that Linux was coincident with
the Internet:  yes, I agree that this was a formative factor.  I have no
doubt that if Linus hadn't come along, another solution would have
emerged, the time was ripe.  GNU/Linux happened to be best-of-breed.

> We're facing the same sort of thing today with respect to 'grid
> computing' and such. All the current OS'es (Linux incl.) are focused
> on the old style of solutions. We'll also find that our current views
> of what IP means will be found to be as antiquated.

References?

-- 
Karsten M. Self        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?             Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html
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From ravage at ssz.com  Fri Oct 26 18:35:36 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 20:35:36 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Why Plan-9?
In-Reply-To: <20011025120236.A26389@navel.introspect>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote:

> > Being 'first' doesn't imply they were 'alone'. You misrepresent
> > reality to your own end.
> 
> Define your market or relevant niche, with specificity.

Computers intended for single-user interactive processing. When looking at
cost/performance/feature for the OS'es current in the late 60's none were
really effective (I'm excluding Language-in-ROM machines - not that any of
them were stellar in performance). What would one day become engineering
workstations and personal computers (which are the same thing today).

A new class of machines was coming out (my first machine was a PDP 8e
running BASIC) and while there were plenty of tools they tended to be
vertical in intent or else not general purpose enough for this sort of
computing. Look at the first couple of years of Byte or Dr. Dobb's for
more specific examples (remember Godbout?) in the personal computer
market.

Which happens to be one of the primary reasons Unix was developed, there
were no realistic choices in the market for this paradigm. So a solution
can trotting along.

We're facing the same sort of thing today with respect to 'grid computing'
and such. All the current OS'es (Linux incl.) are focused on the old style
of solutions. We'll also find that our current views of what IP means will
be found to be as antiquated.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at ssz.com  Fri Oct 26 18:36:35 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 20:36:35 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [psychohistory] Two mistakes (fwd)
Message-ID: 


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:51:49 +0300
From: "[iso-8859-7] Χρήστος Κώνστας" 
Reply-To: psychohistory at yahoogroups.com
To: psychohistory at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [psychohistory] Two mistakes

Nations with imperial aspirations, invariably, throughout History change their conscript based army in favor of an army of paid soldiers. Today euphimisticaly called 'profesional' soldiers, but know also as mercenaries and soldiers of fortune in the not-so-distant past. (Note: Ligustically a "soldier" is 'someone-who-is-SOLD' anyway).
Now this trend is well documented in past history and definately has its own Psychohistorical significance as it's one of the notable 'landmarks' of an Imperium (ie. a nation/state pursuing local/regional/global hegemony - dominance).

What I find interesting and relating with the above 'historical' symptom in todays' US history making actions, are two choices made by the current US administration. I call those choices 'mistakes' for a number of reasons. Both can be atributed to the so-called 'Vietnam Syndrom' of the US society, but IMO they go deeper than that, into the effects and side-effects of profesional armies.

The first is choice is a call for minimal US military casualties. OK the general public might have not liked it before 9/11, but in retrospect after 9/11 things look different. Think about it. 
First In an imaginary situation. Before, but after as well, 9/11 even a 'what's-his-name' journalist could arrange a meeting with Bin Laden should we belive that he eluded the US inteligence? The answer is that they probably knew Bin Laden's location but could not just send 1,000 troops in to get him because of the very real probability of high casualties. Of course profesional soldiers are in for the money and generally do not look forward to a glorious death in Afganistan, but 6,000 civilians died because of this US amy inaction. In retrospect the general public would be far more willing to 'understand' the need of high arny casualties in order to save civilian lives.
Second in today's real situation. The US army is stil reluctant to go in even though their projected casualties are still far less than the 6,000 civilian deat toll. Instead they resort an air campain that cannot distinguise between guilty and inocent, slowly making the US look more and more like the terrorists, at least in the common Afganis' eyes and not only.
6,000 civilians dead and the US military still fights a war without the ability to 'afford' military casualties. That's the combination af a profesional army with the Vietnam Syndrome. Extremely unproductive too, thus, a mistake.

The other choice is that they make this 'War-on-terror' a non-hero war, at a time that heroes are needed.
First here we can note the overlooking of the first heroes, the passengers of Flight 95. They received far less laurels than they deserved - unless the US administration 'knows' something we don't abt. the termination of Flight 95 (Was it shot down by an F-16 or and F-15 fighter?). Firefighters etc. received a heroes treatment for doing their duty, but a hero is someone who does beyond duty, like the passengers of Flight 95.
Then there is the choice to keep the two dead servicemen who died in Pakistan, nameless. The US administration let pass a unique opportunity to make new heroes and show that not only US civilians die in this war, but, this fear for casualties struck again and the two dead Americans do not receive any heroes treatment. OK they were pros, in for the money, not for death 'n glory, but still they could be treated better. Additionaly, I don't think that their comrades haven't noticed that their 'sacrifices' do not weight much. That can and will affect their morale. Angain a mistake.

It is in the best interests of the US and their allies go in and finish what they started. This is a time where the general public will allow for military casualties, but this 'window' will close, sooner than later, and the image of the US will be more damaged than anything else.

Regards
Christos Konstas
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From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Fri Oct 26 20:37:02 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 20:37:02 -0700
Subject: web.archive.org Internet archive to open ---google +
  archeology
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3BD83733.7080305@dragonsweb.org>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011026202919.0335e670@idiom.com>


It's not as outrageous as you'd think.  100GB drives are around $200,
which means that a terabyte will cost you about $3K if you throw in a PC
and some networking gear to connect it, so you could replicate that
in your basement next to your DES-cracker for about the same price -
the more expensive problem is getting the fiber optic connection
from the Presidio to your basement to keep it updated.

More to the point, recent news articles say the Feds have been
getting Google to delete things for them.
         http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/current/msg00505.html
Anybody know what's been deleted, and whether it's still in Wayback,
and whether we can get copies out into the public before anyone pressures
Brewster Kahle?

At 06:10 PM 10/25/2001 +0100, Tolan Blundell wrote:
>Thats fine, I've got a 100TB server in my attic you can use if you want? ;)

>jbdigriz:
>Way cool. It needs to be mirrored, though. Single point of
>failure/distribution invites history being rewritten the way it always
>has been until now.


> > http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-102501archive.story
> > By JOSEPH MENN, Times Staff Writer
> >
> > SAN FRANCISCO -- An Internet archive containing more text than any
> > library in history will open its digital doors today, giving researchers
> > and the public access to just about everything posted on the World Wide
> > Web over the last five years.





From ravage at ssz.com  Fri Oct 26 18:37:42 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 20:37:42 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Market Competition for Security Measures
In-Reply-To: <3BD81BA8.23750.13C025B@localhost>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 25 Oct 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote:

> Observer that in the real world, food and clothing is 
> provided by the market, and no one goes hungry or naked, but 

A truly 'white bread' commentary.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at ssz.com  Fri Oct 26 18:43:49 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 20:43:49 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and   bounds )
In-Reply-To: <3BD83CC1.5B4E5120@mozcom.com>
Message-ID: 



On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, F. Marc de Piolenc wrote:

> No argument there - I just have a lot of trouble equating terrorism and
> the American war of independence.

Why? The Americans were most certainly terrorist/revolutionaries/freedom
fighters/etc.

> Arms should indeed be taken up against
> those who wantonly murder the innocent.

And if a few innocent get caught in the wrath of your vengeance...well,
God's on our side, right?


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From malcolm at nukewoody.com  Fri Oct 26 20:49:01 2001
From: malcolm at nukewoody.com (Malcolm Idaho)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 20:49:01 -0700
Subject: Pravda Propaganda On The NRA, GOA and Militias
Message-ID: <200110270402.XAA13006@einstein.ssz.com>


Tim May wrote:
(...snip...)
> (For those outside the U.S., a word of explanation. For some reason,
> political mappers showed votes for Al Gore in _blue_ and votes for Bush
> in _red_. I have no idea how this came to be...I had never noticed it
> until this past election. In fact, it was only in this past election
> that most of the commentators glommed on this "look at the red parts of
> the map versus the blue parts of the map" meme, so apparently a lot of
> us got exposed to this red vs. blue mapping only recently.)
(...snip...)

View the map in question here:

http://www.nukewoody.com/electmap.jpg

MI




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Fri Oct 26 20:54:14 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 20:54:14 -0700
Subject: The new Internet archive
In-Reply-To: <017e01c15d86$fd8139f0$12b9c0d8@seminole>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011026205354.037650b0@idiom.com>


The article title was "web.archive.org Internet archive to open"....

At 03:57 PM 10/25/2001 -0300, Pier Carlo Montecucchi wrote:
>Do you know the URL address of this new Internet archive?
>
>Pier Carlo
>
>Email: pcmontecucchi at compuserve.com
>
>"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in
>having new eyes " (Marcel Proust)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Subcommander Bob" 
>To: 
>Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 11:45 AM
>Subject: web.archive.org Internet archive to open ---google + archeology
>
>
> >
> > Hey Mitch  --Another part of your permenant record
> >
> > http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-102501archive.story
> > By JOSEPH MENN, Times Staff Writer
> >
> > SAN FRANCISCO -- An Internet archive containing more text than any
> > library in history will open its digital doors today, giving researchers
> > and the public access to just about everything posted on the World Wide
> > Web over the last five years.
> >
> > The free archive, created by a San Francisco computer entrepreneur named
> > Brewster Kahle, allows academics to conduct the electronic equivalent of
> > archeological digs, rooting through reams of material illustrating the
> > evolution of the Web and its role in American society.
> >
> > The Internet Archive, informally called the Wayback Machine, holds more
> > than 10 billion Web pages dating to 1996, including millions that had
> > vanished as dot-coms collapsed, big companies scaled back or updated
> > their offerings, and hobbyist Webmasters lost interest.
> >
> > Researchers and academics have likened Kahle to a modern-day Andrew
> > Carnegie, the steel baron who endowed many of the nation's finest
> > libraries.
> >
> > "Libraries are dedicated to collecting and making available the
> > permanent historical record," said Diane Kresh, the Library of Congress'
> > director for public service collections. She said trolling the Net is as
> > significant as gathering books or periodicals.
> >
> > Want to see what the Heaven's Gate cult page looked like before the
> > group's mass suicide? There it is. Want to see how Yahoo's pages have
> > changed since 1996? Step this way. Pages published by everyone from
> > Fortune 500 companies to renegade porn merchants are stashed in the
> > Internet Archive.
> >
> > The five-year, multimillion-dollar project has amassed five times as
> > much text as the Library of Congress, which helped fund the archive
> > along with Compaq Computer Corp., the National Science Foundation and
> > the Smithsonian Institution. The more-than 100 terabytes of data are
> > housed on 300 modified Hewlett-Packard desktop computers in a basement
> > at San Francisco's Presidio.
> >
> > The effort to record Internet history has been directed and largely
> > financed by Kahle, a 41-year-old former supercomputer technologist who
> > sold one Web firm to America Online and another to Amazon.com.
> >
> > "The opportunity of our time is to offer universal access to all of
> > human knowledge," Kahle said Wednesday from his office in the Presidio,
> > a decommissioned military base near the Golden Gate Bridge. "We're at a
> > unique point in time to offer universal access to anyone who walks into
> > a library in Uganda."
> >
> > The Internet Archive uses automated "bots" to scour the Web. They
> > capture sites and return what they find to the computers at the
> > Presidio. The archive updates every two months. Once captured, the sites
> > are organized chronologically. Users type in a Web address, and the
> > archive displays versions of that site since 1996.
> >
> > Sites that require passwords or block bots are not captured. And if
> > someone objects to their site being copied, the archive removes it.
> >
> > As smaller, less accessible versions of the archive were being compiled,
> > Kahle's 30 staffers got a few complaints. After the staff explained that
> > it wasn't personal, that they were copying everyone's sites, the vast
> > majority decided they didn't mind, Kahle said.
> >
> > "Most people say, 'You're crazy, but go for it,' " Kahle said. "People
> > want to be part of history."
> >
> > Candidates to use the service, at web.archive.org, include academics,
> > journalists and researchers.
> >
> > "It will allow researchers to study the evolution of the Web in a way
> > that is unprecedented," said research scientist Ed Chi of the Xerox Palo
> > Alto Research Center. He said Xerox PARC scientists already are working
> > on new user interfaces based on what the archive showed them about how
> > people looked for information.
> >
> > Early on, "we suspect people will go look for their own pages and see if
> > they can get copies of things that they've lost," Kahle said. "We're not
> > exactly sure how this is going to be used. We're looking forward to
> > being surprised."
> >
> > Like many Internet pioneers, however, Kahle faces unfamiliar risks along
> > with the opportunities. The Internet Archive may be a massive violation
> > of copyright law.
> >
> > "Brewster is taking an extraordinarily personal risk, because this is
> > potentially a criminal offense," said Lawrence Lessig, an expert on
> > intellectual property in cyberspace at Stanford University.
> >
> > Kahle doesn't anticipate getting sued, let alone serving jail time. His
> > plan is to post whatever he can--and keep the archive growing.
> >
> > "We're not here to test laws," Kahle said. "We're trying to build a
> > world we want to live in. The world without a library is a world without
> > a memory, and that would be tragic."
> >
> > The legal questions may take years to resolve, Kahle and Lessig said.
> >
> > Consider the Industry Standard. At least some of that defunct magazine's
> > articles are back online through Kahle's archive. But shareholder IDG
> > paid more than $1 million for the Standard's assets, including rights to
> > those stories. An IDG spokeswoman declined to say whether the company
> > would ask the archive to drop the articles.
> >
> > Kahle said he isn't worrying about the hypotheticals. He's more excited
> > about finding early www.whitehouse.gov pages from 1996 that dealt with
> > airport safety and bioterrorism.
> >
> > Even better is what's to come.
> >
> > "The woman who is going to be elected president in 2024 is in high
> > school now, and I bet she has a home page," Kahle said. "We have the
> > future president's home page!"




From ravage at ssz.com  Fri Oct 26 19:06:33 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 21:06:33 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [9fans] What makes Plan 9 unique? (fwd)
Message-ID: 



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 20:03:13 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jim Choate 
Reply-To: hangar18 at ssz.com
To: hangar18 at einstein.ssz.com
Subject: Hangar 18: Re: [9fans] What makes Plan 9 unique? (fwd)


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 07:56:49 -0400
From: Russ Cox 
Reply-To: 9fans at cse.psu.edu
To: 9fans at cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] What makes Plan 9 unique?

http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~rsc/plan9.html

Why Plan 9?

Why Plan 9 indeed.  Isn't Plan 9 just another Unix clone?  Who cares?

First, Plan 9 presents a consistent and easy to use interface.  Once
you've settled in, there are very few surprises here, whereas Windows
still surprises me once in a while (though, to its credit, not as much
as older versions did).  After I switched to Linux from Windows 3.1, I
noticed all manner of inconsistent behavior in Windows 3.1 that Linux
did not have.  Switching to Plan 9 from Linux highlighted just as much
in Linux.

One reason Plan 9 can do this is that the Plan 9 group has had the
luxury of having an entire system, so problems can be fixed and
features added where they belong, rather than where they can be.  For
example, there is no tty driver in the kernel.  The window system
handles the nuances of terminal input.

If Plan 9 were just a really clean Unix clone, it might be worth
using, or it might not.  The neat things start happening with
user-level file servers and per-process namespace.  Recall that in
Unix, /dev/tty refers to the current window's output device, and means
different things to different processes.  This is a special hack
enabled by the kernel for a single file.  Plan 9 provides full-blown
per-process namespaces.  Thus, in Plan 9 /dev/cons also refers to the
current window's output device, and means different things to
different processes, but the window system (or telnet daemon, or ssh
daemon, or whoever) arranges this, and does the same for /dev/mouse,
/dev/text (the contents of the current window), etc.

Since pieces of file tree can be provided by user-level servers the
kernel need not know about things like DOS's FAT file system or
Linux's EXT2 file system or NFS, etc.  Instead, user-level servers
provide this functionality when desired.  In Plan 9, even FTP is
provided as a file server: you run ftpfs and the files on the server
appear in /n/ftp.

We need not stop at physical file systems, though.  Other file servers
synthesize files that represent other resources.  For example, upas/fs
presents your mail box as a file tree at /mail/fs/mbox.  This models
the recursive structure of MIME messages especially well.

As another example, cdfs presents an audio or data CD as a file
system, one file per track.  If it's a writable CD, copying new files
into the /mnt/cd/wa or /mnt/cd/wd directories creates new audio or
data tracks.  Want to fixate the CD as audio or data?  Remove one of
the directories.

Finally, Plan 9 fits well with a networked environment.  Since files
or directory trees can be imported from other machines, and all
resources are files or directory trees, it's easy to share resources.
Want to use a different machine's sound card?  Import its /dev/audio.
Want to debug processes that run on another machine?  Import its
/proc.  Want to use a network interface on another machine?  Import
its /net.  And so on.





From morlockelloi at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 26 21:13:45 2001
From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 21:13:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Cryptography and the Present Crisis
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <20011027041345.81966.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com>


> It is time for cypherpunks to go back to their roots.  Let us put the
> cypher back in cypherpunk.  There are other places where people can whine

You mean ... stop the impotent bitching, despair, amendments mythology,
fantasizing about killings and sheer bullshit that flourishes when testosterone
meets obesity and actually promote crypto to the unwashed ?

What a radical idea.



=====
end
(of original message)

Y-a*h*o-o (yes, they scan for this) spam follows:
Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
http://personals.yahoo.com




From PaulMerrill at acm.org  Fri Oct 26 18:21:38 2001
From: PaulMerrill at acm.org (Paul H Merrill)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 21:21:38 -0400
Subject: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)
References:  
Message-ID: <3BDA0C22.3C605265@ACM.Org>


Well, you could try comparing the reality involved
with multiple cards and see where the patterns
fit.  I know that that is how I find the meanings
of strange databases for which I don't have access
to the data dictionary.  And it really is the same
thing.

PHM

Yeoh Yiu wrote:
> 
> Meyer Wolfsheim  writes:
> 
> > A friend of mine recently informed me that he has access to a mag-strip
> > reader, and scanned several drivers' licenses (as well as Safeway cards
> > and other random credit-card like items.)
> >
> > Most contained the information displayed on the front of the card, and/or
> > some seemingly random numbers (most likely, the ID numbers.)
> >
> > California DL's have nothing interesting stored in that magstrip that
> > isn't on the front of the card. And no, the signature isn't reflected in
> > the magstrip.
> 
> They might store a long number and without a dictionary you
> don't know what it means.  It's unlikely that older cards
> would use and XMLish annoted data.
> 
> eg does
> 
> 197202281800602
> mean it belongs to a 180# 6'2" person born on Feb 28, 1972 ?
> 
> How could you tell ?
> 
> YY

-- 
Paul H. Merrill, MCNE, MCSE+I, CISSP
PaulMerrill at ACM.Org




From ravage at ssz.com  Fri Oct 26 19:27:09 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 21:27:09 -0500
Subject: Slashdot | GNU Carnivore With Perl Data Lookup
Message-ID: <3BDA1B7D.D6B42DD3@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/10/26/224248.shtml
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From jamesd at echeque.com  Fri Oct 26 21:32:25 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 21:32:25 -0700
Subject: Market Competition for Security Measures
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3BD81BA8.23750.13C025B@localhost>
Message-ID: <3BD9D669.25170.36D631@localhost>


    --
On 25 Oct 2001, at 0:00, Sampo Syreeni wrote:
> > > A bare one objection to comprehensive market based 
> > > security: a market needs private property, and other 
> > > civil rights, in order to function efficiently, as 
> > > predicted.   Protection is what guarantees those 
> > > rights. If you place protection on the market, you no 
> > > longer have a guarantee that the market itself can 
> > > function as originally intended.

On Thu, 25 Oct 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote:
> >And if we place food on the market, we no longer have a 
> >guarantee that anyone will be able to eat :-)

 On 26 Oct 2001, at 0:18, Sampo Syreeni wrote:
> Of course. The point is, the market can work perfectly well 
> in the absence of sufficient nutrition for all of the 
> participants.

 But the market, unlike those wise benevolent folk who
consider themselves morally superior to the market, DOES
provide sufficient nutrition for all the participants,
whereas whenever the wise and good have set themselves in
charge of providing nutrition for all, or X for all, they
have usually failed no matter what the value of X.

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     uzxAd0pvJ5PX1jXw2p1edtML+I4VCxipiT4j/VrF
     4V36lFs1xXlyoMvT6s5LYzy9iPrB3N+ruHLpuZfID




From measl at mfn.org  Fri Oct 26 20:26:52 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 22:26:52 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: A champion of liberty speaks about privacy, cash
 smuggling
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20011026200330.03356680@idiom.com>
Message-ID: 



On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, Bill Stewart wrote:

> >For as long as I have been traveling internationally, I have been required
> >to declare all cash amounts larger than $10,000.  Does this mean that
> >previously it was not a crime to not make such a declaration, and now it
> >is ?

I suspect that this little tidbit is there to ratify if you will a rather
common procedure amonst LEOs who encounter abounts in excess of 10,000.00
in cash - immediate confiscation as "suspected drug" money. Once this
happens, it is necessary for the defendant to perform the impossible feat,
prove a negative assertion, in order to retrieve the confiscated cash
(less all "costs for maintaining it" of course!  My 5,000.00 came back as
a little under 4,000.00 in just six months - and I was one of the _very_
lucky ones!

> >
> >-----
> >John Kozubik - john at kozubik.com - http://www.kozubik.com
> 
> 

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at ssz.com  Fri Oct 26 20:45:28 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 22:45:28 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Why Plan-9?
In-Reply-To: <20011026202554.K15077@navel.introspect>
Message-ID: 



On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote:

> The problem I've got with this response is that Unix and GNU/Linux
> aren't computers, they're operating systems.  Unix was written to run on
> those computers "that didn't exist", largely the PDP 7 and 11.

An OS without a computer is worthless. What drives the architecture of
OS'es (other than mental mastrubation) is applications and applications
environments. In the very late 60's there was a growth in the
computers::person ratio coupled with a great increase in #_computers as a
whole. This led to a problem of scale and scope. Problems that Unix was
able to resolve in a usable way (as 30 years of use will attest). Most
other OS'es weren't. Not that Unix was the only alternative (eg C/PM).
However, the sorts of problems used in a day to day business/activity
creates a 'natural' schism. That is based around the distinctions between
design/engineering and business-home/industry. Unix found a first home in
the first. The 'smaller' OS'es found homes in the second. Each expanded
into the others realm until today. Whence we have several set of originaly
niche market solutions. These solutions have now saturated the market.
However, there are forces that are changing the market radicaly. Moving
from a real 'network is the computer' model. The reality is that the four
horsemen of the network (software, hardware, infrastructure, law) are
going to be replaced in the next 5 or so years with an almost completely
different model. These differences will serve to amplify the current
stresses and schisms in our societies.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at ssz.com  Fri Oct 26 21:53:41 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 23:53:41 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and    bounds )
In-Reply-To: <3BDA1C45.208F7ADC@mozcom.com>
Message-ID: 



[Warning: Use of 3rd person 'you']

On Sat, 27 Oct 2001, F. Marc de Piolenc wrote:

> Again, you make no distinction between freedom fighters and terrorists,
> which is very sad because there is a rather important difference. Being
> incapable of making the distinction, you are condemned to hate everybody
> who fights.

It's a false distinction. What it boils down to is two or more groups
taking up arms to control all groups. One can eulogize about ethics and
morality until the cows come home. Won't change the basic fact that any
such conclusions are not only arbitrary but transient. There is no
absolute right and wrong outside of human psychology. The American
colonist certainly qualified in the 'terrorist' department with their
burning of warehouses and physical assaults on British sympathisers. At
the same time they were sitting in various political offices and economic
posts.

To 'hate' is the issue, the scale is irrelevent. Stop the hate. Stop the
use of violence. Their failure does not justify yours.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at ssz.com  Fri Oct 26 21:54:25 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 23:54:25 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [psychohistory] Two mistakes (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3BDA2026.C82BCA30@mozcom.com>
Message-ID: 



Psst...I didn't write it.

On Sat, 27 Oct 2001, F. Marc de Piolenc wrote:

> > Jim Choate wrote:
> > 
> > Nations with imperial aspirations, invariably, throughout History
> > change their conscript based army in favor of an army of paid
> > soldiers. Today euphimisticaly called 'profesional' soldiers, but know
> > also as mercenaries and soldiers of fortune in the not-so-distant
> > past. (Note: Ligustically a "soldier" is 'someone-who-is-SOLD'
> > anyway).
> 
> Psst - your ignorance is showing! The French term "soldier" refers to a


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From remailer at aarg.net  Sat Oct 27 00:36:45 2001
From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 00:36:45 -0700
Subject: FBI wants to have "Internet Off-switch"
Message-ID: <58d4ac5f2f550a1b3f2013ff119ca8c5@aarg.net>


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 23:13:23 -0700  
From: Larry Diffey 
To: nanog at merit.edu
Subject: FBI is at it again

Per the following article: 
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,37203,00.html it appears as if the 
FBI
now wants to route ALL Internet traffic through it's central servers!!!!

What gall!! What nerve!!!!

Now, for all of you who said, "Hey, I'm not doing anything wrong, let the 
FBI monitor what it wants to." can go shove hot spikes up your nose.

I don't think the FBI really wants to control the Internet, they want to 
destabilize it.  As tyranny approaches the only thing more dangerous than
an armed populace is an informed one.  If they can monitor all the
traffic, they can certainly control it.

The ISP's (whatever those are) need to collectively tell the FBI to go 
jump off a bridge.  Information campaigns need to be sent to the 
customers
to alert them of the potential loss of civil liberties.

I'm gonna stop before I say something that will get me arrested.

Regards,

Larry Diffey




From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Oct 26 08:57:06 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 01:57:06 +1000
Subject: Assasination politics 3,Terra Australis
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011027015237.00aa8820@pop.useoz.com>


Professor fights like a cornered rat...AP trial 3?...can this be the end of 
RICO.

Previously unpublished
by macedon ranges gaurdian 11:11pm Fri Oct 26 '01


A dead tree story that has just been collated.Relevance is the seizing by 
police of citizens laptop and holding for nearly 5 months without charges 
presented.
M1 PROTESTER GIVEN BAIL-BUT OTHER POLICE INTERESTED
A Kyneton man involved in the recent M1 protest in melb.has been accused of 
promoting what is
reffered to as 'assasination politics',and is said to have come to the 
notice of the United States
Secret Service and the Australian Federal Police.
Assasination politics,according to the police,is the practice of nominating 
a person for
assasination,inviting the general public to contribute money to a bank 
account and funding
the assasination with the proceeds.
Police charged Matthew Stephen Taylor last Friday over the vandelism of a 
McDonalds fast food outlet
during the anti-globalisation protest on may 1.
Charges are also pending against Taylor in relation to his alleged Internet 
activities.
On Monday Taylor,46 of Baynton st,Kyneton applied for bail at Kyneton 
Magistrates Court.Taylor faced
two counts of criminal damage and three counts of acting in a manner 
prejudicial to the good
order of a police jail.
As Taylor was led into court,he protested his innocence and described 
Bendigo remand where he
had spent the weekend as a 'hell hole'Inside the court he adressed 
Magistrate William Gibb as
"Your Highness"
He told Mr Gibb he disagreed with his position on drugs and compared it 
with the 1930s prohibition
on alcohol.He was reffering to the previous defendant who appeared on drug 
related charges.
Taylor was supported in court by his father,Ken Taylor,a Mount Macedon poet 
who was recently
awarded the Kenneth Slessor Prize for poetry at the New South Wales 
Premiers Awards.
Prosecutor,Senior Constable Martin Holland said Taylors application for 
bail was not opposed
but he asked Mr Gibb to impose six conditions.
The first condition was "not to post threatening text on the internet 
toward any person whether
located in Australia or elsewhere in the world"
Sen.Const Holland said Taylor had made threats on the internet and a 
computor from Taylors
Kyneton adress had been seized and conveyed to Melbourne for examination.
Sen.Cons.Holland defended the wording of the first condition by saying it 
was not a blanket
ban on all internet useage.
The second condition prohibited Taylor from participating in assasination 
politicsThe third condition was not to engage any other person in the first 
two things.
The remaining conditions included a prohibition on Taylor participating in 
Melbourne
demonstrations.
Sen.Const.Holland said police had been watching Taylors activities on the 
website
www.indymedia.org with some interest.He said anyone could download 
information onto the
site.He said Taylor was known on the site as the 'nutty proffessor'and had 
posted a
message on the site to chief commissioner of victoria Police,Christine 
Nixon.Sen.Const.
Holland said the message stated that "...should you persist with this folly 
one of your
number will be selected for retirement,i.e.execution."
The prosecution called Senior Constable Nicholas Conte who said he had 
investigated video
and photographic footage from the May 1 protest,including video footage of 
Taylor in an
interview with Herald Sun journalist Peter Mickleburough.In it 
Sen.Conts.Conte said Taylor
reffered to himself as "Robin Banks."He said the name was on the indymedia 
website and was
traced back to Taylors adress by the computor Crime Unit.
He explained the concept of assasination politics to the court and said he 
believed it
originated in the United States where a man named Bell is currently under 
sentence in
relation to it.He said based on comments Taylor had made on the internet he 
believed the
defendant was advertising and trying to gain support for assasination 
politics.
"He doesnt make any qualms about that."Sen.Const.Conte said.
Asked by Mr Gibb what the reality of all this was,Sen.Const.Conte replied 
that he could not
gauge the reality,he could only look at the probability.
Under cross-examination from defense solicitor,Mr Cameron 
Ford,Sen.Const.Conte conceded
he did not know if assasination politics had ever resulted in an 
assasination or attempted
assasination.He said the investigation was continuing,with the Computor 
Crime Squad yet to
look at the content of Taylor's computor files.
Sen.Const.Holland said Taylors activities had attracted the attention of 
the US Secret Service
and Australian Federal police.
Mr Gibb said he did not doubt it,but expressed reservations about the 
conditions proposed for
Taylor's bail.
"It just seems to be a nonsense.Im being asked to impose all these 
conditions that bare no
relevance to the charges,"he said.
Mr Ford said the internet was something Taylor lives on and spends a great 
deal of time on.
"He would agree to not post threatening text on the internet,but that was 
as far as he was
prepared to go,"he said.
Mr Gibb released Taylor on bail with the condition that he not post 
threatening text on the
internet and continue to reside at his adress in Baynton 
street,Kyneton.Taylor was bailed to
appear before the Melbourne Magistrates Court on August 16.

update...

A recent article by keith suter in the age suggested that money could be 
offered for osama bin laden,dead or alive.(It already is for information by 
the US and private bounties are being raised.

Tail of article...
In short, does the US have an
exit strategy?


Here is an alternative grand strategy that Bush could have adopted.
Assuming that bin Laden were guilty, then the US could have said, first,
that it would not attack Afghanistan because it had suffered enough from the
Soviet invasion, civil war, drought and now the Taliban (about a quarter of
the world's refugees are Afghans). On the contrary, the US would now help to
rebuild the country with massive amounts of foreign aid.


And second, the US could have offered a massive reward (say $US500 million -
the equivalent of the cost of half a B-1 bomber) for bin Laden dead or
alive. That sum of money would attract groups like the Russian mafia to work
with Afghans to do the operation. Indeed, with that sum of money some of the
Taliban might find the reward very attractive themselves.


Dr Keith Suter is senior fellow with Global Business Network Australia

I put this here because I want to warn keith, who is based in sydney that I 
may need to subpoena him soon.
Nearly 5 months ago police took my laptop and said that I was advocating 
'assasination politics'where money is offered to have people killed.I was 
working as an entertainment journalist at the time.I recently applied to 
have the laptop returned.The police recently stated that they are still 
examining the computer.I believe in the equality of all beneath the rule of 
law.
matt aka proffr1 at nospamfuckmicrosoft.com




From freematt at coil.com  Fri Oct 26 23:00:31 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 02:00:31 -0400
Subject: Ohio Connection: FBI and CIA Suspect Domestic Extremists
Message-ID: 


[Note from Matthew Gaylor: I hope this doesn't turn out like the 
FBI's botched accusations that Richard Jewel was the Atlanta Olympics 
bomber, a charge that was completely false. With the absence of other 
suspects I suppose it's natural for the Feds to trot out the usual 
suspects.  Pravda had on October 18th all ready pointed out that the 
Center for Disease Control re-released a 1999 report authored by 
Jessica Stern of the Council of Foreign Relations, stating that most 
anthrax threats in the United States are linked to "far-right 
militia" organizations... But no US militia group is known to posses 
the refined, military form of anthrax being used against the US media 
and government, and most US militia groups are more concerned with 
defending themselves against anthrax than spreading it in such a way 
that their families and communities might be affected 
. Of special 
interest in this article is the mentioning of Larry Wayne Harris, an 
Ohio microbiologist and former member of the Aryan Nations.  For a 
photo of Harris go to 
.  Being 
from central Ohio just like Harris I've seen him on a few occasions 
at local events.  I did make it a point not to engage him in 
conversation as I considered him a racist nut.  On one particular 
occasion at a gun and preparedness show in Columbus, Ohio sponsored 
by the Peoples Rights Organization, an Ohio gun and civil rights 
group, just before Y2K, Harris had a 
table and display selling his tapes and books on biological warfare. 
On his table he had a device for the spraying of biological agents 
such as Anthrax.  I examined the machine which looked like a 
stainless steel tube, like a coffee dispenser with a nozzle and 
valves.  The show had a prohibition in their rules about "weapons of 
mass destruction" and Harris was asked to leave.  As I remember a 
Franklin County Sheriff escorted Harris off the premises.  I don't 
think he was arrested.]





FBI and CIA Suspect Domestic Extremists

Officials Doubt Any Links to Bin Laden

By Bob Woodward and Dan Eggen
Washington Post Staff Writers
Saturday, October 27, 2001; Page A01

Top FBI and CIA officials believe that the anthrax attacks on
Washington, New York and Florida are likely the work of one or more
extremists in the United States who are probably not connected to Osama
bin Laden's al Qaeda terrorist organization, government officials said
yesterday.

Senior officials also are increasingly concerned that the bioterrorism
is diverting public attention from the larger threat posed by bin Laden
and his network, who are believed to be planning a second wave of
attacks against U.S. interests here or abroad that could come at any
time, officials said.

None of the 60 to 80 threat reports gathered daily by U.S. intelligence
agencies has connected the envelopes containing anthrax spores to al
Qaeda or other known organized terrorist groups, and the evidence
gleaned from the spore samples so far provides no solid link to a
foreign government or laboratory, several officials said.

"Everything seems to lean toward a domestic source," one senior official
said. "Nothing seems to fit with an overseas terrorist type operation."

The FBI and U.S. Postal Inspection Service are considering a wide range
of domestic possibilities, including associates of right-wing hate
groups and U.S. residents sympathetic to the causes of Islamic
extremists. But investigators have no clear suspects, and are not even
certain whether there are other undetected letters that contained the
deadly microbe.

But federal health officials said yesterday that a new case of pulmonary
anthrax in a man who worked at a State Department mail facility in
Northern Virginia has persuaded them that more than one contaminated
letter may have been sent to the Washington area. Health experts
previously believed that a single letter, sent to the office of Senate
Majority Leader Thomas A. Daschle (D-S.D.), likely caused all the
anthrax reports in the Washington area as it came in contact with other
pieces of mail in the system.

Now the "working hypothesis would be that this is not
cross-contamination," said Jeffrey Koplan, director of the Centers for
Disease Control and Prevention. "There is not enough infectious material
from cross-contamination to do that."

However, ongoing searches of truckloads of undelivered mail to the U.S.
Capitol and other government buildings has turned up no other letters
laced with anthrax bacteria, leading FBI officials to assume that the
Daschle letter may still be the only local source. Two employees at the
U.S. Postal Service's Brentwood facility in Washington have died from
inhaling the lethal bacteria, and three other local postal workers have
contracted inhalational anthrax.

"This envelope, Daschle's envelope, is not watertight or airtight or
anything like that," one law enforcement official said. "It's porous. At
one or two microns, there's plenty of room for the spores to escape."

Although there is consensus at the FBI and CIA that al Qaeda associates
are planning more serious attacks, "nobody believes the anthrax scare we
are going through is" the next wave of terrorism, one senior official
said. "There is no intelligence on it and it does not fit any [al Qaeda]
pattern."

No links between known foreign terrorist groups and the anthrax letters
have shown up on the daily Top Secret Threat Matrix, which includes the
latest raw intelligence on potential bombings, hijackings or other
terrorist attacks, one official said. Though "lots of things are
alarming" on the list, there is little agreement on how, when or where
an attack might be launched, officials said.

FBI Director Robert S. Mueller III warned earlier this week that
additional terror attacks are a "distinct possibility."

President Bush and other top U.S. officials have publicly voiced their
suspicion that bin Laden and al Qaeda -- accused of carrying out the
Sept. 11 suicide assaults on the World Trade Center and Pentagon -- may
be responsible for the anthrax mailings.

But Mueller, Attorney General John D. Ashcroft and other law enforcement
officials have said they have discovered no links between the mailings
and bin Laden. Authorities, speaking on condition of anonymity
yesterday, said they are increasingly doubtful that any connections will
be found.

One official said the only significant clue raising the possibility of
foreign terrorist involvement is the conclusion of FBI behavioral
scientists, who believe that whoever wrote the three letters delivered
to Daschle, NBC News and the New York Post did not learn English as a
first language.

But the writer could have lived in this country for some time, and the
other evidence gathered so far points away from a foreign source,
several officials said.

The anti-Israel message in the anthrax letters and bin Laden's
statements are echoed by U.S. extremist groups, said Rabbi Abraham
Cooper, associate director of the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los
Angeles.

One group, Aryan Action, praises the Sept. 11 attacks on its Web site
and declares: "Either you're fighting with the jews against al Qaeda, or
you support al Qaeda fighting against the jews."

Cooper said a meeting this year in Beirut was attended by neo-Nazis and
Islamic extremists united in their hatred of Jews. "Some extremists are
now globalized," he said.

White supremacists have been linked with anthrax in the past, but not in
relation to an attack.

Larry Wayne Harris, an Ohio microbiologist and former member of the
Aryan Nations, was convicted of wire fraud in 1997 after he obtained
three vials of bubonic plague germs through the mail. He was arrested
the next year near Las Vegas when the FBI acted on a tip that he was
carrying anthrax. But agents found harmless anthrax vaccine in the trunk
of his car.

Cooper and officials at the Southern Poverty Law Project, which monitors
U.S. hate groups, said they have seen no evidence of a domestic group
capable of launching a sophisticated anthrax attack.

One of the challenges that a would-be terrorist faces is learning how to
alter the anthrax so that it will float in the air and disperse widely.
The Washington Post reported this week that the spores in the Daschle
letter had been treated with a chemical additive using technology so
sophisticated that it almost certainly came from the United States, Iraq
or the former Soviet Union.

White House spokesman Ari Fleischer said yesterday, however, that
investigators believe a broad range of people are capable of the crime.
"The qualityanthrax sent to Senator Daschle's office could be produced
by a Ph.D. microbiologist and a sophisticated laboratory," he told
reporters.

U.S. officials said the evidence so far does not point to either Russia
or Iraq. However, FBI checks of private and government laboratories in
the United States have not yet revealed any missing anthrax stockpiles,
disgruntled scientists or other suspicious circumstances, one top
official said.

Koplan, the CDC director, said he suspects more than one letter was
involved based on his understanding of how difficult it is to contract
inhalational anthrax. To cause the disease, 8,000 to 10,000 anthrax
spores must enter a person's lungs.

Although some officials said it is possible for that many spores to have
sloughed off the letter sent to Daschle onto another piece of mail,
Koplan said that is hard to imagine. "We all think that would be highly
unlikely to virtually impossible," he said.

Koplan speculated that there may have been multiple mailings and that
"there may be several places within the federal government that have
been deemed targets."

By contrast, the minuscule amounts of anthrax bacteria discovered at
Walter Reed Hospital and the CIA "may well represent
cross-contamination," Koplan said.

William C. Patrick, who is retired from the U.S. Army installation at
Fort Detrick, Md., said extensive studies show that once anthrax spores
hit the ground or other surfaces they stick, and are very hard to
"re-aerosolize.

There's a theoretical possibility that a few spores picked up by an
envelope might cause a skin anthrax infection, but a case of
inhalational anthrax "is highly unlikely," Patrick said.

Staff writers David Brown, Ceci Connolly, Ellen Nakashima and Peter
Slevin and researcher Madonna Lebling contributed to this report.

© 2001 The Washington Post Company

__________________________________________________________________________
Distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in
receiving the included information for research and educational purposes.
---

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From drevil at sidereal.kz  Fri Oct 26 20:06:33 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil)
Date: 27 Oct 2001 03:06:33 -0000
Subject: Democratic critters' biochemwomdterror plans
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20011026190518.0375bc60@idiom.com> (message from
  Bill Stewart on Fri, 26 Oct 2001 19:08:41 -0700)
References: <5.0.2.1.1.20011026190518.0375bc60@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <20011027030633.9189.qmail@sidereal.kz>


> >>WASHINGTON, DC -- Rep. Bob Menendez (D-NJ), Vice Chair of the Democratic 
> >>Caucus and
> >>Chair of the Democratic Task Force on Homeland Security,
> 
> These titles keep sounding more and more like the Committee for State Security
> or the Committee for Public Safety.

Bring back the SLORC!




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From: wanglili at mail.china.com (wanglili at mail.china.com)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 04:33:10 +0800
Subject: =?GB2312?B?UmU6tbHM7Mq50/a1vcSnue2jvw==?=
Message-ID: <200110261937.MAA20067@ecotone.toad.com>


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From: Info at mlm_giveaways.com.au (Info at mlm_giveaways.com.au)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 05:05:26 -0400
Subject: Leads & Free Dell Computer
Message-ID: <200110270905.FAB21360@joeybishop.virtualscape.com>


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From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Oct 27 07:44:37 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 09:44:37 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Tracking Spores
In-Reply-To: <200110271412.KAA20803@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: 



On Sat, 27 Oct 2001, John Young wrote:

> Choate, and me, will never forget the insults, you miserable
> sonsabitches, breath deep and die.

Um, leave me out of your particular revisionist fantasy thank you very
much.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Oct 27 07:48:54 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 09:48:54 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [psychohistory] Two mistakes (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3BDA4960.86B44CCE@mozcom.com>
Message-ID: 



No it doesn't you dunder head. It's a forward from another list. All I did
was forward it, I didn't write it.

Keep practicing reading those headers, you'll get it right sooner or
later.

On Sat, 27 Oct 2001, F. Marc de Piolenc wrote:

> That's funny - the post had your return address in the header. Somebody
> trying to make you look bad? Superfluous, if so.
> 
> Marc
> 
> Jim Choate wrote:
> > 
> > Psst...I didn't write it.
> > 
> > On Sat, 27 Oct 2001, F. Marc de Piolenc wrote:
> > 
> > > > Jim Choate wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Nations with imperial aspirations, invariably, throughout History


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From georgemw at speakeasy.net  Sat Oct 27 09:50:04 2001
From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 09:50:04 -0700
Subject: BOOKS FOR PRISONERS
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3BDA834C.17221.11C87B@localhost>


On 26 Oct 2001, at 18:40, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

>
> So, if you'd like to get some books into the prison system, you might talk
> to your local Libertarian Party office or contact the Long Haul in Berkeley.
> 
> 
>  S a n d y
> 
> 

Do the books actually make it onto the shelves? I know that
some public libraries aren't interested in mere taxpayers' opinions
as to what books they should have,  they'll accept your donated
books but they'll just sell them.  I would suspect the same would
likely be true at prison libraries.

George 




From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Oct 27 07:51:49 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 09:51:49 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: FBI wants to have "Internet Off-switch"
In-Reply-To: <58d4ac5f2f550a1b3f2013ff119ca8c5@aarg.net>
Message-ID: 



To hell with the ISP concept, distribute and decentralize!

On Sat, 27 Oct 2001, AARG! Anonymous wrote:

> I don't think the FBI really wants to control the Internet, they want to 
> destabilize it.  As tyranny approaches the only thing more dangerous than
> an armed populace is an informed one.  If they can monitor all the
> traffic, they can certainly control it.
> 
> The ISP's (whatever those are) need to collectively tell the FBI to go 
> jump off a bridge.  Information campaigns need to be sent to the 
> customers
> to alert them of the potential loss of civil liberties.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From frissell at panix.com  Sat Oct 27 06:56:07 2001
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 09:56:07 -0400
Subject: Where The Torture Never Stops...
In-Reply-To: 
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011026150147.031264c0@brillig.panix.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011027094756.035c7ec0@frissell@brillig.panix.com>


At 02:21 PM 10/26/01 -0500, measl at mfn.org wrote:

>This "worldview" of your makes a point of deying the reality of the
>situation under disussion.  It's difficult to enjoy reading "all the
>worlds scriptures" when you need to spend most of your time insuring your
>pyhsical *survival*.  You have absolutely no concept of our prisons, do
>you?

I don't know.  Sayyid Qutb, one of the founders of modern Islamic 
Fundamentalism managed to *write* his all-time bestseller "Mallem 
Fittareek" (Milestones) while in an Egyptian prison.  Nasser executed him 
for it a few years after he got out.

http://www.youngmuslimscanada.org/biographies/display.asp?ID=7

Actually, reading is quite popular in prison.  As is writing.

DCF
----
"I know what war is, hell it's just a stupid card game." - Mad Magazine 
quoting U.S.Grant in an article on how famous sayings were just taken out 
of context.




From frissell at panix.com  Sat Oct 27 07:00:52 2001
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 10:00:52 -0400
Subject: Where The Torture Never Stops...
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
 
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011027095750.045800b0@frissell@brillig.panix.com>


At 03:41 PM 10/26/01 -0400, Matthew Gaylor wrote:

>Of course you may have to read standing up until you get used to it.
>
>Regards,  Matt-
>
>
>Rape used as control in U.S. prisons
>
><
>
>By NEVE GORDON
>National Catholic Reporter, September 14, 2001


In fact, during the recent electricity "crisis" in KKKalifornia, the state 
Attorney General threatened the CEO of Enron with prison rape as part of 
his punishment for selling electricity to KKKalifornians at an 
inappropriate price.

DCF

----
If Womyn and Victims of Color think that it is tough to make it in an 
advanced capitalist society, they should have tried doing it the way Dead 
White European Males had to do it -- building an advanced capitalist 
society out of ancient tyrannies from the ground up stone by stone.




From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Oct 27 10:06:58 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 10:06:58 -0700
Subject: Tracking Spores
Message-ID: <200110271412.KAA20803@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>


What better way to carry spores in the US's strongest
fortress, Cheyenne Mountain Operations Center, than
by way of the President seeking protection from a 
September 11 threat? When told of the WTC attacks
was he not visiting the region of the first spore attacks?

Prior to 911 CMOC regularly conducted tours of the
facility which it recounts on its Web site:

  https://www.cheyennemountain.af.mil/cmoc/

What better way to spread spores throughout DC's
most secure facilities than to use members of Congress 
and staff as vectors, not just the Capitol but the refuges
set aside for wartime use?

To be sure, all those who have fled spore threats have
likely served as vectors, as in the past did asbestos workers 
and animal hide handlers who took the contaminants home
with them.

The WSJ reported yesterday on the Anthrax Capital of
North America, a tri-county area in southern Texas where
cutaneous anthrax infections are common. The soil of
the region is claimed to be the richest source of anthrax
in the country. Locals have no fear of the spores, antidotes
are sold in cattle feed stores.

This is not to suggest that the People's Republic of Texas 
is out to get its Connecticut carpetingbagging cowpoke for 
messing with the dirt-rich downhomeland.

South Texas, for those who never studied our homegrown
stone-age, is right there with Afghanistan in deviousness, 
monomania, religious fundamentalism, treachery, animal
copulation, lying, infecting Yankees, abusing immigrants,
and sending one-nation-only-Texas-Texans up north to 
prey on people who believe they are superior for losing
the war of 1845.

Choate, and me, will never forget the insults, you miserable
sonsabitches, breath deep and die.




From piolenc at mozcom.com  Fri Oct 26 19:30:29 2001
From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 10:30:29 +0800
Subject: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and   
 bounds )
References: 
Message-ID: <3BDA1C45.208F7ADC@mozcom.com>




Jim Choate wrote:

> Why? The Americans were most certainly terrorist/revolutionaries/freedom
> fighters/etc.

Again, you make no distinction between freedom fighters and terrorists,
which is very sad because there is a rather important difference. Being
incapable of making the distinction, you are condemned to hate everybody
who fights.

> > Arms should indeed be taken up against
> > those who wantonly murder the innocent.
> 
> And if a few innocent get caught in the wrath of your vengeance...well,
> God's on our side, right?

Right is certainly on our side. I'm an atheist, so I have no concern for
God's opinions.

Marc de Piolenc
Philippines 
>  --
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>      The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.
> 
>                                              Edmund Burke (1784)
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------

-- 
Remember September 11, 2001 but don't forget July 4, 1776

Rather than make war on the American people and their
liberties, ...Congress should be looking for ways
to empower them to protect themselves when
warranted.

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin





From piolenc at mozcom.com  Fri Oct 26 19:47:02 2001
From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 10:47:02 +0800
Subject: [psychohistory] Two mistakes (fwd)
References: 
Message-ID: <3BDA2026.C82BCA30@mozcom.com>


> Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> Nations with imperial aspirations, invariably, throughout History
> change their conscript based army in favor of an army of paid
> soldiers. Today euphimisticaly called 'profesional' soldiers, but know
> also as mercenaries and soldiers of fortune in the not-so-distant
> past. (Note: Ligustically a "soldier" is 'someone-who-is-SOLD'
> anyway).

Psst - your ignorance is showing! The French term "soldier" refers to a
warrior who is paid - "solde" means pay - as contrasted originally with
feudal levies, who were not. Nowadays the distinction is meaningless
because even conscripts are paid at regular rates, so we say
"professional soldier" for a volunteer and "conscript" for a short-term
draftee. 

A . "Salary," by the way, refers to a portion of the pay of the Roman
legionaire, which was paid in salt.

> Now this trend is well documented in past history and definately has
> its own Psychohistorical significance as it's one of the notable
> 'landmarks' of an Imperium (ie. a nation/state pursuing
> local/regional/global hegemony - dominance).

The US eliminates involuntary military servitude, and you call it
imperialism. It develops a career army, and you call it mercenary. I
know this won't make any impression on you, but do try to consider the
obvious military advantages of having continuity in training, experience
and DISCIPLINE. I would just add that by your criterion, Canada must be
planning to take over the world because they have always had a
professional military in all services!

> Of course profesional soldiers are in for the money and
> generally do not look forward to a glorious death in Afganistan,

Have you ever actually talked to a US soldier? I don't think anybody
"looks forward" to death in combat, but if you think our military is
intimidated by the likes of OBL or the Taliban, you obviously don't know
much about the current state of morale in the US military. And your
ignorance shows again when you say professional soldiers are "in it for
the money" - you contradict yourself. How much would it cost to convince
YOU to put your life on the line? There probably isn't enough money in
the world for that, because you are a moral coward, and such people tend
to be physical cowards as well. Fortunately, your kind is the exception,
something you are naturally incapable of perceiving from your
perspective.

Marc de Piolenc





From anonymous at anonymizer.com  Sat Oct 27 10:51:00 2001
From: anonymous at anonymizer.com (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 10:51 -0700
Subject: FBI wants to have Internet Off-switch
Message-ID: <200110271751.KAA25407@sirius.infonex.com>


Reading the article it looks more like the kind of news that's playing a lot these days: the story of 'something is not yet being done', nobody is claiming to be doing it, but it could be done and the majority of people would support it.  A kind of "no news is news" story.

At the same time, if Baker, attorney with Steptoe (god what a perfect name!), were aware of this and leaked it to the press based on work he is doing with the FBI, wouldn't he be subject to imprisonment or at least civil and professional penalties for violation of attorney-client confidentiality?  Unless the FBI wants it leaked.  And why?  To gauge reaction perhaps.  To tell the frogs the heat's going to be turned up a notch?

But it also could be Baker trying to keep warm in the sunshine of publicity by having something to say.  At the same time spouting this information would be a most egregious violation of at least SOMEthing.

"Curiouser and curiouser," said Alice!




From keyser-soze at hushmail.com  Sat Oct 27 11:06:51 2001
From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 11:06:51 -0700
Subject: FBI moves to route internet  through central servers:
  Another  dagger in the Heart of Freedom in America
Message-ID: <200110271806.f9RI6pu07496@mailserver1c.hushmail.com>


On Sat, 27 Oct 2001 00:09:19 -0700, someone wrote:
>[hi folks,  step by step we are losing our liberty, speak now or forever 
>hold your peace.]
>
>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,37203,00.html 

The feds have been working for years on higher speed, government access only, Internet alternative.  Once they have this in place, or even before with this new approach, they could close the Internet down of filter our undesirable traffic as they see fit.  Forcing the U.S. Internet though one location would destablize the entire network.

A few of the alternatives are: 
- to support the smaller ISPs doing local peering and who cannot afford to use the major peering points
- re-awaken FidoNet
- Purchase and offer 802.11 public access points
- write letters and emails to the major ISP CEOs warning of the dire technical and personal consequences should their networks surcome to this fed pressure




From sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 27 11:12:22 2001
From: sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com (sonofgomez709)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 11:12:22 -0700
Subject: CypherPunks Anthrax Tomorrow's News Story 
Message-ID: <001f01c15f12$ee2c1140$b60da2cd@vaio>



FBI and CIA Suspect CypherPunks Cryptologists

Officials Doubt Any Links to Phil Zimmermann

By Bob Woodward and Dan Eggen
Washington Post Staff Writers
Sunday, October 29, 2001; Page A709

Top FBI and CIA officials believe that the anthrax attacks on
Washington, New York and Florida are likely the work of one or more
Cryptologists in the United States who are probably not connected to James
Dalton Bell's Assassination Politics organization or Phil Zimmermann's
PGP Crypto SoftWare, government officials said yesterday.

Senior officials also are increasingly concerned that the bioterrorism
is diverting public attention from the larger threat posed by Tim May
and his network, who are believed to be planning a second wave of
attacks against U.S. absurdities here or abroad that could come at any
time, officials said.

None of the 60 to 80 threat reports gathered daily by U.S. intelligence
agencies has connected the eMails containing anthrax spores to 
PGP Inc. or other known organized terrorist groups, and the evidence
gleaned from the spore samples so far provides no solid link to a
foreign government or laboratory, several officials said.

"Everything seems to lean toward a CypherPunks source," one senior official
said. "Nothing seems to fit with an Corporate terrorist type operation."

The FBI and U.S. Postal Inspection Service are considering a wide range
of CypherPunks possibilities, including associates of right-wing Crypto
groups and U.S. CodeWriters sympathetic to the causes of FreeSpeech
extremists. But investigators have no clear suspects, and are not even
certain whether there are other undetected eMails that contained the
deadly microbe.

Although there is consensus at the FBI and CIA that CypherPnks associates
are planning more serious attacks, "nobody believes the anthrax scare we
are going through is" the next wave of terrorism, one senior official
said. "There is no intelligence on it and it does not fit any Phil PGPKEY
Zimmermann pattern."

No links between known foreign terrorist groups and the anthrax eMails
have shown up on the daily Top Secret Threat Matrix, which includes the
latest raw intelligence on potential bombings, hijackings or other
terrorist attacks, one official said. Though "lots of things are
alarming" on the list, there is little agreement on how, when or where
an attack might be launched, officials said.

FBI Director Robert S. Mueller III warned earlier this week that
additional terror attacks are a "distinct possibility."

President Bush and other top U.S. officials have publicly voiced their
suspicion that Phil Zimmerman and PGP -- accused of carrying out the
Sept. 11 suicide assaults on the World Trade Center and Pentagon -- may
be responsible for the anthrax mailings.

But Mueller, Attorney General John D. Ashcroft and other law enforcement
officials have said they have discovered no links between the mailings
and Zimmermann.  Authorities, speaking on condition of anonymity
yesterday, said they are increasingly doubtful that any connections will
be found.

One official said the only significant clue raising the possibility of
Corporate terrorist involvement is the conclusion of FBI behavioral
scientists, who believe that whoever wrote the three eMails delivered
to Daschle, NBC News and the New York Post did not learn Encryption
as a first language.

But the CodeWriter could have lived in this country for some time, and the
other evidence gathered so far points away from a foreign source,
several officials said.

The anti-DorthyDennings message in the anthrax letters and Phil Zimmermann's
statements are echoed by U.S. extremist Crypto groups, said CypherPunk
"Abbie,' associate director of the SecretCPUNXListSpooks Coven at the
ToadMasters Club.

One group, CypherPunks Archives, praises the Sept. 11 attacks on its Web site
and declares: "Either you're fighting with the jews against al Qaeda, or
you support al Qaeda fighting against the jews."

Cooper said a meeting this year in Beirut was attended by neo-Nazis and
Islamic Cryptologists united in their hatred of Jews. "Some extremists are
now globalized," he said.

Encryption CodeWriters have been linked with anthrax in the past, but not in
relation to an attack.

Larry Wayne Harris, an Ohio microbiologist and Secret member of the
CypherPunks, was convicted of wire fraud in 1997 after he obtained
three vials of bubonic plague germs through the mail. He was arrested
the next year near Las Vegas when the FBI acted on a tip that he was
carrying anthrax. But agents found harmless anthrax vaccine in the trunk
of his car.

Cooper and officials at the Southern Poverty Law Project, which monitors
U.S. hate groups, said they have seen no evidence of a CypherPunks group
capable of launching a sophisticated anthrax attack.

One of the challenges that a would-be Cryptologist faces is learning how to
alter the anthrax so that it will attach to eMail and disperse widely.
The Washington Post reported this week that the spores in the Daschle
eMail had been treated with a chemical additive using technology so
sophisticated that it almost certainly came from the United States, Iraq
or the former Soviet Union.


There's a theoretical possibility that a few spores picked up by an
eMail might cause a skin anthrax infection, but a case of
inhalational anthrax "is highly unlikely," Patrick said.

Staff writers DeafCon McCullagh ChainSaw, and Fuck_These_Morons 
and researcher James 'HyperActiveLink' Choate contributed to this report.

© 2001 The Washington Post Toasties Company

__________________________________________________________________________
Spammed without profit to those who have expressed a negligible interest in
receiving the included garbage for PenisEnLargeMent research and 
OffTopic educational purposes.


CJ Parker 
http://profiles.yahoo.com/sonofgomez709
http://members.w-link.net/~sog/INDEX.HTM
http://jya.com/cejfiles.htm

"The True Story Of The InterNet"
The Xenix ChainSaw Massacre
http://www.technopagan.org/politics/xenix/
WebWorld & The Mythical Circle Of Eunuchs
http://www.technopagan.org/politics/webworld/ 
InfoWar: Final Frontier Of The Digital rEvolution
http://www.technopagan.org/politics/infowarriors/
Space Aliens Hide My Drugs
http://www.technopagan.org/politics/sahmd/ 

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From matt at rearviewmirror.org  Sat Oct 27 12:00:14 2001
From: matt at rearviewmirror.org (Matt Beland)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 12:00:14 -0700
Subject: FBI moves to route internet  through central servers:  Another  dagger in the Heart of Freedom in America
In-Reply-To: <200110271806.f9RI6pu07496@mailserver1c.hushmail.com>
References: <200110271806.f9RI6pu07496@mailserver1c.hushmail.com>
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From matt at rearviewmirror.org  Sat Oct 27 12:00:14 2001
From: matt at rearviewmirror.org (Matt Beland)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 12:00:14 -0700
Subject: FBI moves to route internet  through central servers: 
  Another  dagger in the Heart of Freedom in America
In-Reply-To: <200110271806.f9RI6pu07496@mailserver1c.hushmail.com>
References: <200110271806.f9RI6pu07496@mailserver1c.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: <200110271858.f9RIwWd16649@slack.lne.com>

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From mch at informationanarchy.org  Sat Oct 27 13:24:40 2001
From: mch at informationanarchy.org (Mark Henderson)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 13:24:40 -0700
Subject: FBI moves to route internet  through central servers:
  Another  dagger in the Heart of Freedom in America
In-Reply-To: <200110271806.f9RI6pu07496@mailserver1c.hushmail.com>; from
  keyser-soze@hushmail.com on Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 11:06:51AM -0700
References: <200110271806.f9RI6pu07496@mailserver1c.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: <20011027132440.A13359@informationanarchy.org>


On Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 11:06:51AM -0700, keyser-soze at hushmail.com wrote:
> - re-awaken FidoNet

FidoNet, ugh. Would the software even work under most current 
operating systems?

uucp still lives in pretty much every UNIX and UNIX-like operating 
system and it moves email well. 

It would be a simple matter to get uucp going for a mail link with
some sort of over the wire encryption. It has been about ten years 
since I've dealt with this, but as I recall each email message went
via a uux of rmail (uux was remote command execution - sort of like
rsh over a modem). There is no particular reason why one couldn't
encrypt before sending and decrypt upon receipt. Mostly just a
modification to sendmail.cf and a modification to rmail. Of course
this really just solves the problem for a single hop uucp link.

People did a lot of multi-hop uucp. I remember trying to work out the 
right "bang path" to get mail across the country to people I was 
corresponding with quickly. Of course, you end up with the same 
problems. Traffic can be monitored. multi-hop uucp means there are 
lots of very easy interception points. This doesn't really get around 
the whole problem, uucp is just something different to monitor, still 
subject to traffic analysis, and you'd need real end to end 
encryption of email messages via something like pgp/gpg anyway. 

The only thing a large multi-hop uucp network would give us is that 
it would allow us to do is decentralise and control our own mail 
paths, so monitoring would be harder, in that sense. In a large 
enough network, one could even use a different path for each message. 

I wonder if my old Telebit modem still works. It is in a box somewhere...

---
Mark Henderson, mch at squirrel.com, mch at informationanarchy.org
 "Heilir fsir. Heilar asynjur. Heil sja in fjvln}ta fold." - Sigrdrmfumal
OpenPGP/GnuPG keys available at http://www.squirrel.com/pgpkeys.asc




From piolenc at mozcom.com  Fri Oct 26 22:42:56 2001
From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 13:42:56 +0800
Subject: [psychohistory] Two mistakes (fwd)
References: 
Message-ID: <3BDA4960.86B44CCE@mozcom.com>


That's funny - the post had your return address in the header. Somebody
trying to make you look bad? Superfluous, if so.

Marc

Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> Psst...I didn't write it.
> 
> On Sat, 27 Oct 2001, F. Marc de Piolenc wrote:
> 
> > > Jim Choate wrote:
> > >
> > > Nations with imperial aspirations, invariably, throughout History
> > > change their conscript based army in favor of an army of paid
> > > soldiers. Today euphimisticaly called 'profesional' soldiers, but know
> > > also as mercenaries and soldiers of fortune in the not-so-distant
> > > past. (Note: Ligustically a "soldier" is 'someone-who-is-SOLD'
> > > anyway).
> >
> > Psst - your ignorance is showing! The French term "soldier" refers to a
> 
>  --
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>      The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.
> 
>                                              Edmund Burke (1784)
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------

-- 
Remember September 11, 2001 but don't forget July 4, 1776

Rather than make war on the American people and their
liberties, ...Congress should be looking for ways
to empower them to protect themselves when
warranted.

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin




From bounce-stocknight-90845T at lyris.stocknight.com  Sat Oct 27 13:59:05 2001
From: bounce-stocknight-90845T at lyris.stocknight.com (Stocks)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 13:59:05 -0700
Subject: Smith & Wesson (SAFH) Super-Light Hand Gun
Message-ID: 


 [Stockupticks.com]                                              [Image]

[Image]
 Welcome to Stockupticks.com Newsletter    Issue #13 - October 26, 2001
[Image]



 [Image][Image]                                                 [Image]
        e-Blast

        [Image]          *** Important News ***          [Image]

          MA Union News Reports New Smith & Wesson Super-Light
                                 Guns
             Could Be Carried By Flight Crews On Commercial
                                Airliners

        In the Spring of this year, Stockupticks brought you
        the story of a small-cap company that produced firearm
        safety and security products. That company,
        Saf-T-Hammer (OTC BB: SAFH) later acquired legendary
        gun manufacturer Smith & Wesson. One of the products in
        development at that time was a gun made from a new,
        lightweight, exotic-metal alloy making the gun easier
        to carry and conceal. Due to interest in using this
        weapon for arming flight crews on commercial airliners,
        the dealer response has been tremendous.

                                [Image]

                          (see article below)
          -----------------------------------------------------


                                 [Image]

                             Business News

                 Lightweight revolvers hot item for S&W

          Wednesday, October 24, 2001
          By WILLIAM FREEBAIRN

          A new line of ultra-light revolvers in stores this
          month is proving a success for Smith & Wesson, which
          can't keep up with demand. The new guns are among the
          first in the world to use scandium, a metal that has
          been used in Russian fighter jets and baseball bats.
          They are being marketed under the AirLite Sc label
          and all are capable of firing a powerful .357-caliber
          Magnum round that had been previously unavailable in
          such a lightweight gun.

          The smaller revolvers, which weight just over 11
          ounces, have been shipping for several weeks; larger
          guns should reach dealers in the coming days.
          "It's a hot item," said Herb A. Belin, handgun
          product manager for Smith & Wesson. "Our constraint
          is our production rate." The guns are more expensive
          than stainless-steel revolvers. New guns carry a
          suggested price of between $700 and $800 each.

          The lighter guns are likely to be purchased by people
          who want them for personal defense, especially those
          with permits to carry concealed weapons, Belin said.
          Officials said developing the guns using the new
          metal took longer than expected and taught them some
          lessons in metallurgy. In high-speed video footage of
          the gun firing, the frame and barrel moved
          dramatically due to the scandium alloy's flexibility.
          "That gun does the rumba," Belin said.

          Designers increased the size of some parts of the gun
          to reduce flexing. Titanium was used in the cylinder
          for strength, but testing showed it was also needed
          in the center pin and other parts of the weapon.
          Steel is used for the hammer and trigger. "This
          taught us to make even stronger, tougher guns," Belin
          said.

          Scandium is a little-known metal that occupies a
          place on the periodic table immediately before
          titanium. Discovered in the late 1800s, it found use
          in the former Soviet Union, which had a virtual
          monopoly on the supply from the Ukraine. The Soviets
          used it in fighter jets and missile parts. When the
          Soviet Union broke up, the metal began to see more
          widespread use, for example in aluminum baseball bats
          and mountain bike frames.

          Although scandium costs about $7,000 a pound, the
          amount needed to mix with aluminum and other alloying
          agents is small. Adding a little scandium to aluminum
          strengthens the material more than twofold, Belin
          said.

          Its weight will increase the number of people willing
          to carry it, Belin said. "You don't need a holster.
          You can carry it in your pocket."

          The lightest of the scandium guns is less than half
          of the weight of the lightest .357-caliber Magnum the
          company made before. Because of their light weight
          and flexible scandium-aluminum alloy frame, the guns
          deliver a rapid "kick" to the hands of the person
          firing them. "Recoil is an issue," Belin said.

          The gun can fire less-powerful rounds than the .357
          magnum, for example the .38 special, that can reduce
          recoil. "You really have to work at not flinching
          (when firing,)" Belin said.

          Smith & Wesson officials believe there may be another
          market for the super-light guns. They have developed
          a prototype scandium alloy gun that could be carried
          by flight crews on commercial airliners. There have
          been calls for flight crews to be armed, although no
          steps have been taken by the government in that
          direction.

          The Smith & Wesson prototypes are black with an
          internal hammer, so they could be carried in a
          trouser or jacket pocket without catching on the
          fabric. The guns could be modified to fire a
          lower-velocity round, which is less likely to cause
          damage to an aircraft, officials said.

          The prototype air crew guns have not been publicly
          revealed before, Belin said. A spokesman said the
          prototypes are simply a design concept and will not
          necessarily be produced or be shared with people
          outside the company.

          © 2001 UNION-NEWS.

                    ABOUT SAF-T-HAMMER (OTC BB: SAFH)
                                [Image]

          Saf-T-Hammer Corporation is a firearm safety company
          focused on preventing unauthorized gun use and
          unintentional firearm accidents. Saf-T-Hammer
          customers include sporting goods distributors, law
          enforcement distributors, law enforcement retailers,
          law enforcement agencies and gunsmiths. Saf-T-Hammer
          acquired Smith & Wesson, one of the world’s leading
          producers of quality handguns and law enforcement
          products, in May of this year. Law enforcement
          personnel, military personnel, target shooters,
          hunters, collectors and firearms enthusiasts
          throughout the world have used the company’s products
          with confidence for nearly 150 years.

          [Image] Links                                 [Image]

          For more information, visit the company’s Web sites
          at:
          http://www.saf-t-hammer.com
          http://www.smith-wesson.com

          For the latest news regarding Saf-T-Hammer click here

          -----------------------------------------------------

          Safe Harbor Statement: Statements contained in this
          document, including those pertaining to estimates and
          related plans other than statements of historical
          fact, are forward-looking statements subject to a
          number of uncertainties that could cause actual
          results to differ materially from statements made.

          Disclaimer: StockUpTicks.com is a property of Market
          Pathways Financial Relations Incorporated (MP).  The
          information, opinions and analysis contained herein
          are based on sources believed to be reliable but no
          representation, expressed or implied, is made as to
          its accuracy, completeness or correctness.  This
          report is for information purposes only and should
          not be used as the basis for any investment decision.
          MP has been retained by Saf-T-Hammer to assist in its
          on-going investor relation’s efforts. MP owns 180,000
          shares of Saf-T-Hammer restricted common stock and
          receives monthly compensation of $4,000 for
          continuing financial public relations services. The
          compensation received by MP for producing this
          newsletter constitutes a conflict of interest as to
          MP’s ability to remain objective in its communication
          regarding the subject company.  Write or call MP for
          detailed disclosure as required by Rule 17b of the
          Securities Act of 1933/1934.  MP is not an investment
          advisor and this report is not investment advice.
          This information is neither a solicitation to buy nor
          an offer to sell securities.  Information contained
          herein contains forward-looking statements and is
          subject to significant risks and uncertainties, which
          will affect the results.  The opinions contained
          herein reflect our current judgment and are subject
          to change without notice.  MP and/or its affiliates,
          associates and employees from time to time may have
          either a long or short position in securities
          mentioned.  Information contained herein may not be
          reproduced in whole or in part without the express
          written consent of Market Pathways Financial
          Relations Incorporated.


          -----------------------------------------------------

 [Image][Image]                                                 [Image]

[Image]
                © Stockupticks 2001, All rights reserved
[Image]





---
You are currently subscribed to stocknight as: cypherpunks at algebra.com
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From decoy at iki.fi  Sat Oct 27 04:17:38 2001
From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 14:17:38 +0300 (EEST)
Subject: Market Competition for Security Measures
In-Reply-To: <3BD9D669.25170.36D631@localhost>
Message-ID: 


On Fri, 26 Oct 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote:

>But the market, unlike those wise benevolent folk who consider
>themselves morally superior to the market, DOES provide sufficient
>nutrition for all the participants, whereas whenever the wise and good
>have set themselves in charge of providing nutrition for all, or X for
>all, they have usually failed no matter what the value of X.

Which is pretty much the reason you will want to limit what those
benevolent people can do. Keep them to their role as a police, and the
rest of the market will work well enough to supply the force. Or more
likely, only channel the money through those benevolent people, and buy
the actual service from the private sector.

Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - mailto:decoy at iki.fi, tel:+358-50-5756111
student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front
openpgp: 050985C2/025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2




From stevet at sendon.net  Sat Oct 27 07:20:23 2001
From: stevet at sendon.net (Steve Thompson)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 14:20:23 +0000
Subject: Assasination politics 3,Terra australis
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20011027164528.00aa08e0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <200110271448.OAA15691@divert.sendon.net>



Quoting mattd (mattd at useoz.com):
> I wrote:
> > "The Australian Federal Police sound as though they are being maliciously 
> > incompetent. Copying a laptop hard-drive should take no more than about an 
> > hour; and they aren't going to boot the laptop in order to inspect it for 
> > obvious reasons. Regards, Steve "
> The feds are generally regarded as bozo's with sadistic tendencies,(thats 

How much of that is PR is perhaps open to debate, but there are certainly
enough cases where their sadistic tendencies, as you say, have resulted in
significant damage to peoples lives without reason.

> in the police job description)Its been pointed out
> to the victorian state computer squad that are holding it that Norton ghost 
> exists to no avail.Their argument seems to be
> that when they finish probing my pron for steg,etc,etc...they may lay 
> charges and will need the entire machine
> as evidence.They are placing street officers lives in danger by delaying 

I can't comment on the suitability of Norton Ghost for the purpose of making
an image copy of a hard-disk, but the argument is specious at best.  If they
haven't got the procedures in place to assure the proper evidence handling in
that case and therefore need the hardware, then evidence gathered by covert
means (i.e., the copying of a `suspect's' data via either a black-bag job or
by way of tempest surveillance) is just as suspect.

And incidentally, it's obviously quite easy to install arbitrary files on
someone's computer in the same way that a crooked cop might `find' a bag of
cocaine in someone's bathroom.

The long and short of it is that they're obviously full of shit.

> charges(if I am a slavering stone killer)Ill be arguing
> if Im charged that they dont seriously believe me to be a threat.(5 
> months!) The coroner critisised the state police once for not taking 
> threats seriously.Sandy stone may be called for the defense as he will 
> convincingly demolish the reality of the 'threat'.

Which is probably a trivial task.  But these sorts of incidences are probably
simply harassment and intimidation.  Amusing, isn't it, that the people
nominally responsible for maintaining order and the safety of a country's
civilians are the ones who would cause just as much (or more) harm to their
citizenry than would a putative criminal.

Some would no doubt argue that such measures are the price of liberty.
 
> Operation soft drill could save you from your 'leaders' for a suprisingly 
> low amount.How much is your progressive enlightened experiment worth?"Id 
> buy that for a dollar"

Eh?


Regards,

Steve

-- 
Oldthinkers unbellyfeel Ingsoc.




From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Oct 27 12:30:23 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 14:30:23 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: FBI moves to route internet  through central servers:  Another  dagger in the Heart of Freedom in America
In-Reply-To: <200110271906.OAA17972@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: 



On Sat, 27 Oct 2001, Matt Beland wrote:

> > - Purchase and offer 802.11 public access points
> 
> Which does absolutely nothing to help the situation. Traffic from access 
> point to access point is still through landlines, still controlled by ISPs, 
> and still subject to monitoring. The source might be obfuscated, but that's 
> not security or privacy - that's just making LEA's work a little harder and 
> spend a little more money which they'll take from us, anyway.

That's not entirely correct. In fact there are examples of dedicated lines
being used for wireless interconnectivity to bypass the traditional
network. The 802.11b are worthless for anything but playing around with,
but the 802.11a that just came out has sufficient bandwidth and range to
become a real contender with respect to spontaneous urban network layers.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From remailer at aarg.net  Sat Oct 27 14:50:01 2001
From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 14:50:01 -0700
Subject: FBI wants to have "Internet Off-switch"
Message-ID: <2708564dd7ee042917023f1b3969cac6@aarg.net>


They'll probably lean on the big boys, the backbone providers
like MCI, Sprint, Cable & Wireless, etc. CALEA put taps in those
providers, so it's just a matter of expanding the data streams
they're "allowed" to scan.

Anyone know of a tunneling package that'll handle an OC3?...

Cheers -

> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 23:13:23 -0700
> From: Larry Diffey 
> To: nanog at merit.edu
> Subject: FBI is at it again Per the following article:
> http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,37203,00.html
> it appears as if the FBI now wants to route ALL Internet traffic through
> it's central servers!!!! What gall!! What nerve!!!!
> Now, for all of you who said, "Hey, I'm not doing anything wrong, let the
> FBI monitor what it wants to." can go shove hot spikes up your nose.
> I don't think the FBI really wants to control the Internet, they want to
> destabilize it.  As tyranny approaches the only thing more dangerous than
> an armed populace is an informed one.  If they can monitor all the traffic,
> they can certainly control it. The ISP's (whatever those are) need to
> collectively tell the FBI to go jump off a bridge.  Information campaigns
> need to be sent to the customers to alert them of the potential loss of
> civil liberties. I'm gonna stop before I say something that will get me
> arrested.
>
> Regards, Larry Diffey




From salesprom at centraltees.com  Sat Oct 27 12:51:18 2001
From: salesprom at centraltees.com (Salesprom)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001  15:51:18 -0400
Subject: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com
Message-ID: <20011027203159603.JVY357@ns.centraltees.com@centraltees.com>

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From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Oct 27 14:07:24 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 16:07:24 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: coderpunks spam (fwd)
Message-ID: 



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 14:49:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: V Alex Brennen 
To: coderpunks at toad.com
Subject: Re:  coderpunks spam


I'm willing to host a new list, or a companion list.  I can serve as
moderator of the new list, if no one else wants the job or objects.
I'm also willing to run a companion web site with an archive and a
copy of advogato if people are interested in that.

I proposed once before that mlm software be put in place so that
coderpunks would only accept PGP signed messages from subscribers
and messages from anonymous remailers.  I'm still interested in
working cryptography into the mlm that the list runs on at some
time, although not in the immediate future.

I have benefited greatly from technical discussion lists on
cryptography implementation while working on my own projects.
I'm about to start working rather heavily in PKI and would
like to enjoy the benefits I saw from coderpunks and other
technical forms continued and expanded.

If no one objects, let's move ahead with this.  I've been thinking
of unsubscribing myself from coderpunks because of all the spam.

I intend to run the lists from my personal web site, cryptnet.net,
which has T1 bandwidth (burstable to more than) and runs on a
linux machine running sendmail which has adequate process power
to deliver mail in a reasonable amount of time to > 1000 people.

Should the lists be separate or joined?


	- VAB
---
V. Alex Brennen
IBM Certified Specialist
e-TechServices.com
IBM Business Partner
Bus: 352.375.6273
Fax: 770.216.1877
Mobile: 352.246.8553
vab at e-techservices.com





From fogstorm at mac.com  Sat Oct 27 16:20:19 2001
From: fogstorm at mac.com (FogStorm)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 16:20:19 -0700
Subject: The end of the Fourth Amendment
In-Reply-To: <5B1A9946-CA36-11D5-9E00-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <2FE75A9E-CB31-11D5-AD3F-0030657961FE@mac.com>


On Friday, October 26, 2001, at 10:24  AM, Tim May wrote:

> On Friday, October 26, 2001, at 05:38 AM, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
> Too many totalitarian surveillance state measures to comment on, but 
> the "sneak and peek" provision is such a slam dunk violation of the 
> Fourth Amendment that it bears special comment.
>
>>    Other sections of the USA Act, which the House approved by a 357 to 
>> 66
>>    vote on Wednesday, that do not expire include the following:
>>
>>      * Police can sneak into someone's house or office, search the
>>        contents, and leave without ever telling the owner. This would 
>> be
>>        supervised by a court, and the notification of the surreptitious
>>        search "may be delayed" indefinitely. (Section 213)
>
>
> Anyone caught inside a house or office should be dealt with in the most 
> expeditiious manner possible.

Most people who detect an intruder in their homes going through their 
stuff
aren't going to think "This must be a government agent performing an 
appropriately authorized black bag job." They're going to think "Holy 
shit! There's a criminal in my house." and do whatever they feel is 
necessary to defend their loved ones.

So lets say a hypothetical woman named "Sue" ventilates "Agent Smith" 
(who she perceives as a burglar & possibly a rapist) with her twelve 
gauge. Will she be charged with a crime? Will she be "detained" until 
such time as the Feds have finished determining her involvement with 
terrorism? If she asserts her fifth amendment right to not answer 
questions will the FBI torture her until she "admits" she is a terrorist?




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Oct 27 00:05:33 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 17:05:33 +1000
Subject: Assasination politics 3,Terra australis
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011027164528.00aa08e0@pop.useoz.com>


"The Australian Federal Police sound as though they are being maliciously 
incompetent. Copying a laptop hard-drive should take no more than about an 
hour; and they aren't going to boot the laptop in order to inspect it for 
obvious reasons. Regards, Steve "

The feds are generally regarded as bozo's with sadistic tendencies,(thats 
in the police job description)Its been pointed out
to the victorian state computer squad that are holding it that Norton ghost 
exists to no avail.Their argument seems to be
that when they finish probing my pron for steg,etc,etc...they may lay 
charges and will need the entire machine
as evidence.They are placing street officers lives in danger by delaying 
charges(if I am a slavering stone killer)Ill be arguing
if Im charged that they dont seriously believe me to be a threat.(5 
months!) The coroner critisised the state police once for not taking 
threats seriously.Sandy stone may be called for the defense as he will 
convincingly demolish the reality of the 'threat'.

Operation soft drill could save you from your 'leaders' for a suprisingly 
low amount.How much is your progressive enlightened experiment worth?"Id 
buy that for a dollar"




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Sat Oct 27 18:41:55 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 18:41:55 -0700
Subject: JOHN EDWARD
Message-ID: 


C'punks,

If you ever watch the SciFi Channel, you've probably seen John Edward.  He
supposedly conveys messages from dead people to their grieving friends and
family.  I can't watch it more than a couple of minutes without getting
really angry.

Penn Jillette--following in Houdini's footsteps about such matters--has
expressed similar outrage.  Recently, Penn wrote:

     	If you want [a] number to call John
	Edward and tell him how wrong what
	he's doing is, I got through on this
	one 631-574-6043.

If you have an opinion to share with John Edward, you might wish to give him
a call.


 S a n d y

P.S.  What was the *SCI*Fi Channel thinking?




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Sat Oct 27 19:09:39 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 19:09:39 -0700
Subject: JOHN EDWARD
In-Reply-To: <200110280157.VAA31751@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: 


John Young wrote:

> Wait, Sandy, John Edward does sci-fi comedy.
> Like Penn and Teller catching bullets with
> teeth, David Caine levitating. Dr. Spin on
> Fox, Dr. Germ in Iraq.

It ain't funny if you are exploiting somebody's loss and misery.  Have you
ever lost someone?

> Join in the tomfoolery, isn't that what
> Penn and Teller dare us.

No, it isn't.  Didn't you read what Penn wrote?  Penn & Teller are honest
magicians, they tell you they are conning you.


 S a n d y




From jamesd at echeque.com  Sat Oct 27 19:14:22 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 19:14:22 -0700
Subject: Market Competition for Security Measures
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3BD81BA8.23750.13C025B@localhost>
Message-ID: <3BDB078E.10763.20417F@localhost>


    --
On Thu, 25 Oct 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote:
> > Observer that in the real world, food and clothing is
> > provided by the market, and no one goes hungry or naked, but

On 26 Oct 2001, at 20:37, Jim Choate wrote:
> A truly 'white bread' commentary.

I observe the pigeons are just as tame in black majority areas, from which I conclude no one is hungry there either.  The only parts of the world you will see hunger are not very capitalist, and for the most part they have substantial government intervention in food supposedly aimed at 
guaranteeing food for all:  India and Sri Lanka are obvious examples, and North Korea an extreme example.

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     G1MK7ClT1tDbskdqHX8bQYJRwIjYtmV3ySJkN7TC
     4nGiO9HjEyqUrxMSTjWCbxm2I/1fcpRLV5SB/pdyW




From jamesd at echeque.com  Sat Oct 27 19:14:22 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 19:14:22 -0700
Subject: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and   bounds )
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3BD83CC1.5B4E5120@mozcom.com>
Message-ID: <3BDB078E.18198.204161@localhost>


    --
On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, F. Marc de Piolenc wrote:
> > I just have a lot of trouble equating terrorism and the
> > American war of independence.

On 26 Oct 2001, at 20:43, Jim Choate wrote:
> Why? The Americans were most certainly
> terrorist/revolutionaries/freedom fighters/etc.

If you cannot tell the difference between terrorists and
freedom fighters, you got shit for brains.

The revolutionaries killed british soldiers in America.  They
did not go to england and kill english children. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     /I0NwLOC9TfraDoO89fP2ZWwpG5CEcq6ggF5R3y0
     4Fqn8wqxrF4MvGrfA9fDSQfO/959RFgg6SnFcE53K




From morlockelloi at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 27 19:26:41 2001
From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 19:26:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: FBI moves to route internet  through central servers:  
  Another  dagger in the Heart of Freedom in America
In-Reply-To: <3BDB12F6.22338.178658A@localhost>
Message-ID: <20011028022641.36118.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com>


> > rsh over a modem). There is no particular reason why one couldn't
> > encrypt before sending and decrypt upon receipt. Mostly just a
> > modification to sendmail.cf and a modification to rmail. Of course
> > this really just solves the problem for a single hop uucp link.

There is a package that encrypts e-mail, it is called something like Pretty
Good Privacy. Use the fucking PGP for e-mail at the end-user point. No need to
trust anyone. Crypto concentration points are bad as any other concentration
points.

> 
> Believe it or not, I still have one mail route that travels over UUCP 
> for the last link.  For the past 4 or 5 years, I've done UUCP over 
> TCP/IP.  I'd think that one could tunnel that through SSL, though 
> I've never tried to do it.

Or use 802.11b with a small dish ... does wonders to 20 miles and it's rather
hard to intercept *every* path.

> Heh... 19,200 was blazingly fast in those days, and the Telebit was 
> set up for UUCP spoofing (the local modem faked the ACK packets 
> to save turnaround time) to get better throughput.  Still, I think a 
> 56K modem could outpull a Telebit.

You mean the $2500 9600 baud telebit is inferior today ?

:-)


=====
end
(of original message)

Y-a*h*o-o (yes, they scan for this) spam follows:
Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
http://personals.yahoo.com




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Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 20:02:47 +0700
Subject: `Save Money! Refiance Now!!!
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From roy at scytale.com  Sat Oct 27 18:03:02 2001
From: roy at scytale.com (Roy M. Silvernail)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 20:03:02 -0500
Subject: FBI moves to route internet  through central servers: 
  Another  dagger in the Heart of Freedom in America
In-Reply-To: <20011027132440.A13359@informationanarchy.org>
References: <200110271806.f9RI6pu07496@mailserver1c.hushmail.com>; from 
  keyser-soze@hushmail.com on Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 11:06:51AM -0700
Message-ID: <3BDB12F6.22338.178658A@localhost>


On 27 Oct 2001, at 13:24, Mark Henderson wrote:

> uucp still lives in pretty much every UNIX and UNIX-like operating
> system and it moves email well. 
> 
> It would be a simple matter to get uucp going for a mail link with
> some sort of over the wire encryption. It has been about ten years
> since I've dealt with this, but as I recall each email message went
> via a uux of rmail (uux was remote command execution - sort of like
> rsh over a modem). There is no particular reason why one couldn't
> encrypt before sending and decrypt upon receipt. Mostly just a
> modification to sendmail.cf and a modification to rmail. Of course
> this really just solves the problem for a single hop uucp link.

Believe it or not, I still have one mail route that travels over UUCP 
for the last link.  For the past 4 or 5 years, I've done UUCP over 
TCP/IP.  I'd think that one could tunnel that through SSL, though 
I've never tried to do it.

> I wonder if my old Telebit modem still works. It is in a box
> somewhere...

Heh... 19,200 was blazingly fast in those days, and the Telebit was 
set up for UUCP spoofing (the local modem faked the ACK packets 
to save turnaround time) to get better throughput.  Still, I think a 
56K modem could outpull a Telebit.
--
           Roy M. Silvernail     [ ]     roy at scytale.com
DNRC Minister Plenipotentiary of All Things Confusing, Software Division
    PGP Key 0x1AF39331 :  71D5 2EA2 4C27 D569  D96B BD40 D926 C05E
                 Key available from pubkey at scytale.com
            I charge to process unsolicited commercial email




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Sat Oct 27 20:48:11 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 20:48:11 -0700
Subject: JOHN EDWARD
In-Reply-To: <200110280313.XAA00750@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: 


John Young wrote:

> The begrieved are actors.

Is that speculation or do you really have proof of that statement?

To the extent I've watched the show, it's obvious to me that the people are
real.

> Are ye not soap acting verily in this
> exchange.

Nope, not in the least.  I HATE people who take advantage of the suffering
of others.

> What's the real skinny on Rush's going deaf?

I haven't listened to nor spoken to Rush for some time.  I hadn't heard
about the deafness.


 S a n d y




From drevil at sidereal.kz  Sat Oct 27 13:58:04 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil)
Date: 27 Oct 2001 20:58:04 -0000
Subject: Tracking Spores
In-Reply-To: <200110271412.KAA20803@tisch.mail.mindspring.net> (message
  from John Young on Sat, 27 Oct 2001 10:06:58 -0700)
References: <200110271412.KAA20803@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20011027205804.7412.qmail@sidereal.kz>


> South Texas, for those who never studied our homegrown
> stone-age, is right there with Afghanistan in deviousness, 
> monomania, religious fundamentalism, treachery, animal
> copulation, lying, infecting Yankees, abusing immigrants,
> and sending one-nation-only-Texas-Texans up north to 
> prey on people who believe they are superior for losing
> the war of 1845.

Don't mess with Texas.  Someday Texas will regain its independence and
form the Nation of Texestan.




From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Oct 27 21:51:59 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 21:51:59 -0700
Subject: JOHN EDWARD
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <200110280157.VAA31751@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>


Wait, Sandy, John Edward does sci-fi comedy. Like Penn and 
Teller catching bullets with teeth, David Caine levitating.
Dr. Spin on Fox, Dr. Germ in Iraq.

It's reality TV, like Dan and Tom and The Intelligent One.

Fukrisakes all is Sci Fi. Call them and bitch, or send funny
mail. Join in the tomfoolery, isn't that what Penn and Teller 
dare us.

You think they not an investor in Edward's magic?

I see you and raise.




From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Oct 27 23:07:09 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 23:07:09 -0700
Subject: JOHN EDWARD
In-Reply-To: 
References: <200110280157.VAA31751@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <200110280313.XAA00750@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>


The begrieved are actors. It's only entertainment.
Penn and Teller, too. And thou also, have you not
so hammed it up here often and to be sure in film. 
Are ye not soap acting verily in this exchange. I 
grieve for you. Deeply. You adorable con artist 
cum magician.

What's the real skinny on Rush's going deaf?
This is not a trick question. Why capitals for
JE?




From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Oct 27 22:22:32 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 00:22:32 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and   bounds )
In-Reply-To: <3BDB078E.18198.204161@localhost>
Message-ID: 



On Sat, 27 Oct 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote:

> If you cannot tell the difference between terrorists and
> freedom fighters, you got shit for brains.
> 
> The revolutionaries killed british soldiers in America.  They
> did not go to england and kill english children. 

Why is where they were killed important? If you kill people on your land
it's ok, kill them on their land it's not?

Then the Allies were 'terrorist' when they entered German territory in
WWII? I hardly think so.

It's not the who or where, it's the why that is important.

Why could the Americans not kill British subjects on English soil? They
had no mechanism to get there effectively. I'm sure the Americans would
have prefered killing the British on British soil rather than American
soil.

Your standard of 'definition' leaves something to be desired.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From saeq at gmx.net  Sun Oct 28 00:59:06 2001
From: saeq at gmx.net (Luthor Blisset)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 00:59:06 -0700
Subject: "Meet the computer criminals: they'll see you in your office"
  (DUMM DUMM DUMMMMmmm...)
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011027235941.02cf0690@pop.gmx.net>


	So, it looks like IBM is paying people to socially engineer their way into 
datacenters and such - Richard Marcinko meets Bruce Schneier, or something. 
Regardless, nothing new here method-wise, but it's funny to see.

http://news.independent.co.uk/digital/features/story.jsp?story=99302

-- Luthor //Remembering is copying and copying is THEFT




From measl at mfn.org  Sun Oct 28 00:04:48 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 01:04:48 -0600 (CST)
Subject: JOHN EDWARD
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Sat, 27 Oct 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

> Nope, not in the least.  I HATE people who take advantage of the suffering
> of others.

Wait a sec here: aren't you a lawyer?

>  S a n d y

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From measl at mfn.org  Sun Oct 28 00:16:27 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 01:16:27 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Hunger in Amerikka (was: Market Competition for Security Measures)
In-Reply-To: <3BDB078E.10763.20417F@localhost>
Message-ID: 



http://www.hungerfreeamerica.com/
http://www.uri.edu/endhunger/
http://www.secondharvest.org/
http://www.msue.msu.edu/fnh/hunger/toolbox/hunger.html
http://www.brook.edu/press/books/hunger.htm

I could, of course, go on and on.  You are full of shit James.


On Sat, 27 Oct 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote:

> On Thu, 25 Oct 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote:
> > > Observer that in the real world, food and clothing is
> > > provided by the market, and no one goes hungry or naked, but
> 
> On 26 Oct 2001, at 20:37, Jim Choate wrote:
> > A truly 'white bread' commentary.
> 
> I observe the pigeons are just as tame in black majority areas, from which I conclude no one is hungry there either.  The only parts of the world you will see hunger are not very capitalist, and for the most part they have substantial government intervention in food supposedly aimed at 
> guaranteeing food for all:  India and Sri Lanka are obvious examples, and North Korea an extreme example.
> 
>     --digsig
>          James A. Donald
>      6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
>      G1MK7ClT1tDbskdqHX8bQYJRwIjYtmV3ySJkN7TC
>      4nGiO9HjEyqUrxMSTjWCbxm2I/1fcpRLV5SB/pdyW
> 
> 

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From cp at black-sun.demon.co.uk  Sat Oct 27 17:40:01 2001
From: cp at black-sun.demon.co.uk (Paul Walker)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 01:40:01 +0100
Subject: FBI moves to route internet  through central servers
In-Reply-To: <20011027132440.A13359@informationanarchy.org>
References: <200110271806.f9RI6pu07496@mailserver1c.hushmail.com>
  <20011027132440.A13359@informationanarchy.org>
Message-ID: <20011028014001.A2590@black-sun.demon.co.uk>


On Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 01:24:40PM -0700, Mark Henderson wrote:

> > - re-awaken FidoNet
> FidoNet, ugh. Would the software even work under most current operating
> systems?

There's software to work under most of them, sure; Win*, DOS, *nix, RiscOS,
AmigaOS, etc. It can be slow, but does have the advantage that you can send
direct to the recipient.

-- 
Paul




From attila at hun.org  Sat Oct 27 21:33:49 2001
From: attila at hun.org (attila!)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 04:33:49 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [RANT] Why Bin Laden Hates --the single-issue theories are wrong
Message-ID: <20011028043349.4BCB43465A@hun.org>

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From sdhomebiz at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 28 06:34:18 2001
From: sdhomebiz at yahoo.com (sdhomebiz at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 6:34:18 PM -0000
Subject: Huge Market Potential & Demand
Message-ID: <200110290246.UAA29655@einstein.ssz.com>

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From sandfort at mindspring.com  Sun Oct 28 07:24:30 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 07:24:30 -0800
Subject: JOHN EDWARD
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


J.A. Terranson wrote:

> On Sat, 27 Oct 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote:
>
> > Nope, not in the least.  I HATE people
> > who take advantage of the suffering
> > of others.
>
> Wait a sec here: aren't you a lawyer?

Don't practice.  Besides, the practice of law no more necessarily takes
advantage of the suffering of others than does the practice of medicine.  If
you do your job right, you help people who need it.  John Edward helps no
one.


 S a n d y




From saint at bazares.com  Sun Oct 28 05:51:19 2001
From: saint at bazares.com (saint at bazares.com)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 08:51:19 -0500
Subject: are you ready?                         5636
Message-ID: <00005f553194$00001e75$00001604@yuhan.co.kr>

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From jamesd at echeque.com  Sun Oct 28 08:58:30 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 08:58:30 -0800
Subject: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and   bounds )
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3BDB078E.18198.204161@localhost>
Message-ID: <3BDBC8B6.22738.598FD9@localhost>


    --
James A. Donald:
> > If you cannot tell the difference between terrorists and
> > freedom fighters, you got shit for brains.
> >
> > The revolutionaries killed british soldiers in America.  They
> > did not go to england and kill english children.

Jim Choate:
> Why is where they were killed important?

It is unimportant.  What matters is what those one kill are doing.  British soldiers were repressing colonials.  The guys in the trade towers were not doing anything to Muslims.

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     Q2kWfTH9APuw22jWc7EzjNGXgLUxM0LaW1PvR7zo
     41V/oOt9SaMiRQFiTT7GGI75ooA1KgMXRBYfcCZNg




From jamesd at echeque.com  Sun Oct 28 08:58:30 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 08:58:30 -0800
Subject: Hunger in Amerikka (was: Market Competition for Security Measures)
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3BDB078E.10763.20417F@localhost>
Message-ID: <3BDBC8B6.25945.598FBB@localhost>


     --
On 28 Oct 2001, at 1:16, measl at mfn.org wrote:
> http://www.hungerfreeamerica.com/ 
> http://www.uri.edu/endhunger/ http://www.secondharvest.org/ 
> http://www.msue.msu.edu/fnh/hunger/toolbox/hunger.html 
> http://www.brook.edu/press/books/hunger.htm
>
> I could, of course, go on and on.  You are full of shit
> James.

The stretches these guys have concocted to find evidence of
hunger in the US is itself evidence that what they seek is
not to be found.  If there were actual hungry people, we
would not looking for evidence of their existence in ways
more suited to bigfoot and flying saucer aliens. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     LGZpahnul7wBF6yG+R4aHi5jGJcHHhIeMyHePlWX
     4gOQMnZ1ipgqBA2GHVw3bkHvAoq7xeFEjny19bXxB




From georgemw at speakeasy.net  Sun Oct 28 09:08:58 2001
From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 09:08:58 -0800
Subject: Now we know why those 1000 are being held in NYC
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3BDBCB2B.21341.5497341@localhost>


On 28 Oct 2001, at 9:39, measl at mfn.org wrote:


> NEW YORK(Reuters) -- Among almost 1,000 people being held in the United
> States in connection with the hijacked-airliner attacks on the World Trade
> Center and the Pentagon are people who made congratulatory telephone calls
> minutes later, The New York Times reported in Sunday editions. 
> 
...
> The newspaper said officials would not say how many people were detained
> through the telephone intercepts, nor would they discuss evidence that any
> of them proved to be members of the group organized by bin Laden,
> Washington's prime suspect in the attacks. 
> 
> ------------------------- END CUT AND PASTE ___________________________
> 
> The obvious questions that come to mind are (1) How is it that the FBI was
> listening in on the calls of a thousand people at that time, 

obviously, they weren't.  Some fraction of the 1000 were making 
"gloating phone calls".  How many of them?  My guess is three,
on the grounds that the FBI is too honest to unscrupulously use 
the plural if there were only one. 
> and, (2) with
> this story in hand, how many of these poor victims will try to assert
> their [obviously violated] 1st A rights?
> 

They can try to assert whatever they want, but you'll have to
spend some time looking for an American judge who won't agree
that making congratulatory phone calls right after the attacks
provides grounds for reasonable suspicion of involvement,
particularly if they were already under surveilance.

George 
> -- 
> Yours, 
> J.A. Terranson
> sysadmin at mfn.org
> 
> If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
> should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
> Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
> unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
> the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
> elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
> populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
> This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
> as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
> 
> The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
> associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
> those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
> first place...
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 





From measl at mfn.org  Sun Oct 28 07:39:07 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 09:39:07 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Now we know why those 1000 are being held in NYC
Message-ID: 



---------------------  BEGIN CUT AND PASTE --------------------------

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/10/28/inv.attacks.calls.reut/index.html


NEW YORK(Reuters) -- Among almost 1,000 people being held in the United
States in connection with the hijacked-airliner attacks on the World Trade
Center and the Pentagon are people who made congratulatory telephone calls
minutes later, The New York Times reported in Sunday editions. 

Although transcripts of the phone calls have not been made available, the
Times reports that officials have said some of the calls were
"congratulatory, even gloating." 

These suspected associates of Saudi-born militant Osama bin Laden's al
Qaeda organization are among 977 people held on various charges related to
the September 11 attacks, which killed almost 5,000 people in New York,
Washington and Pennsylvania. 

The paper said it had been unable to determine whether those who made the
jubilant calls were participants in the hijack plot or merely rejoicing
over the attacks. 

FBI agents intercepted telephone calls, moved in and made arrests, holding
the bulk of those arrested on immigration or criminal violations and a
smaller group on material witness warrants, the newspaper reported. 

Their identities and those of most of the people being held have not been
released by the Justice Department. 

The newspaper said officials would not say how many people were detained
through the telephone intercepts, nor would they discuss evidence that any
of them proved to be members of the group organized by bin Laden,
Washington's prime suspect in the attacks. 

------------------------- END CUT AND PASTE ___________________________

The obvious questions that come to mind are (1) How is it that the FBI was
listening in on the calls of a thousand people at that time, and, (2) with
this story in hand, how many of these poor victims will try to assert
their [obviously violated] 1st A rights?

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From jamesd at echeque.com  Sun Oct 28 09:40:42 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 09:40:42 -0800
Subject: Weaponizing anthrax
Message-ID: <3BDBD29A.3495.803003@localhost>


The following is theory, constructed from readily available
public sources.  This theory has not been tested in practice.

Anthrax spores disperse in neutral water and most nutrient
broths, settling to the bottom so slowly that for all
practical purposes they do not settle.  To separate them one
would need to add a suitable agent to the solution --
probably acetic acid would do it.  Acidify the water to PH 4
or so, and let them settle out.  I do not know if this would
harm the spores, but spores are tough.

Take some sodium bentonite clay, let it swell in water to
maximum volume, and add water till it is nice and liquid.
The clay should be moderately alkaline.  Because the clay is
alkaline,  the spores will disperse in it, as they do in
clean water.  Mix spores very thoroughly into the clay.

Acidify the mixture with acetic acid till the PH ensures the
clay precipitates from the slurry  The clay should
precipitate out to form a crumbly precipitate which when
dried can be readily pulverized to very fine dust.  Different
clays will yield precipitates that have different physical
properties.  Have no idea what PH would ensure the best
properties of the precipitate, but one can test this without
any need for bacteria.

Now comes the tricky bit.  One could have a well equipped
laboratory to grind the precipitate without exposing oneself
to too much of the dust, or one could take several people
from some unwanted group, for example Tajiks or Kurds, put
the precipitate in a barrel containing granite rocks, and
have them roll the barrel around until the precipitate is
well powdered.

It seems to me that it is not very difficult to produce
weaponized anthrax with primitive means, except that such
means would liberally spread anthrax spores around the plant.
If the plant was located in the frozen wastes of afghanistan,
this would not be a serious problem.




From measl at mfn.org  Sun Oct 28 07:48:29 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 09:48:29 -0600 (CST)
Subject: JOHN EDWARD
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Sun, 28 Oct 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

> J.A. Terranson wrote:
> 
> > On Sat, 27 Oct 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> >
> > > Nope, not in the least.  I HATE people
> > > who take advantage of the suffering
> > > of others.
> >
> > Wait a sec here: aren't you a lawyer?
> 
> Don't practice.  Besides, the practice of law no more necessarily takes
> advantage of the suffering of others than does the practice of medicine. 

Which all too often shares the position of the legal
"profession" (especially the so-called "psychiatrists").

> If
> you do your job right, you help people who need it.

Agreed.  I assume that when you practised, you consistently met the 10
percent pro-bono-level???

> John Edward helps no
> one.

The same could be said for many "professions", yet they are allowed to
continue their "practice".  Simple supply and demand. 

>  S a n d y

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From nobody at mix.winterorbit.com  Sun Oct 28 01:17:10 2001
From: nobody at mix.winterorbit.com (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 10:17:10 +0100
Subject: Ignore Me. Really...
Message-ID: 

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp
Size: 347 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From john at kozubik.com  Sun Oct 28 11:04:24 2001
From: john at kozubik.com (John Kozubik)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 11:04:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Now we know why those 1000 are being held in NYC
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 




> 
> The obvious questions that come to mind are (1) How is it that the FBI was
> listening in on the calls of a thousand people at that time, and, (2) with
> this story in hand, how many of these poor victims will try to assert
> their [obviously violated] 1st A rights?
> 


In less dire times, certain capabilities have been suspected, as regards
monitoring and wiretapping technology in place for LEAs, etc.  It is often
maintained that any negative proof of their existence, eg. "I said thus
and such over the phone or in a chat room and nobody came to talk to me"
is due to an unwillingness of the agencies to tip their hand as regards
the existence of these technologies.

That is, it isn't worth it to prove you have real-time monitoring over all
telephone traffic just to catch a prankster in peacetime.

Although proving the existence and quality of domestic monitoring
capabilities is not a priority of mine, for those for whom it is, perhaps
now would be the time to start experimenting again.  The fervor with which
LEAs are now searching, and the desire to break open the case is probably
such that the existence of any domestic monitoring technology would be
allowed, indirectly, to become public knowledge.

You would have to be highly motivated, I suspect, as any "interesting
communication" would clearly land you in very hot water.  Further,
information about "small fish" technologies ("I sent a private message
between two of my own clients on EFnet that was intercepted") is far less
useful than big fish technologies ("I sent a weakly encrypted (56bit
symmetric cipher?) message over a point to point connection between two of
my own modems, across the PSTN").

Please note that I do not condone pranks of any kind, so if you do conduct
a test, send the message or communication to yourself.  (note that the
examples above are self to self communications)

---

On a related note, are there any provisions in the new anti-terror
legislation that would make such self-to-self "interesting" communications
illegal ?


-----
John Kozubik - john at kozubik.com - http://www.kozubik.com





From georgemw at speakeasy.net  Sun Oct 28 11:05:04 2001
From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 11:05:04 -0800
Subject: Hunger in Amerikka (was: Market Competition for Security Measures)
In-Reply-To: <3BDBC8B6.25945.598FBB@localhost>
References: 
Message-ID: <3BDBE660.31537.5B3BCCF@localhost>


On 28 Oct 2001, at 8:58, jamesd at echeque.com wrote:


> The stretches these guys have concocted to find evidence of
> hunger in the US is itself evidence that what they seek is
> not to be found.  If there were actual hungry people, we
> would not looking for evidence of their existence in ways
> more suited to bigfoot and flying saucer aliens. 
> 
>     --digsig
>          James A. Donald
>      6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
>      LGZpahnul7wBF6yG+R4aHi5jGJcHHhIeMyHePlWX
>      4gOQMnZ1ipgqBA2GHVw3bkHvAoq7xeFEjny19bXxB
> 
>
Certainly individuals are pretty hungry at least some of the time.
I remember a while back a way home there was an old lady
bum saying "please help me get something to eat, I'm hungry".
Experience told me that she would be there again the next day
saying the same thing.  But what made this day special was,  I
overheard another lady remark to her friend, "I'm hungry too,
because I worked through my lunch hour".  Then again,
she did look like she could afford to skip a few meals.
	What there isn't in the US is starvation.  This country has
its faults, but as far as providing food goes, there are an amazing 
number of morbidly obese "poor" people.

George

 





From mch at informationanarchy.org  Sun Oct 28 11:08:48 2001
From: mch at informationanarchy.org (Mark Henderson)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 11:08:48 -0800
Subject: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and   bounds )
In-Reply-To: <3BDBC8B6.22738.598FD9@localhost>; from jamesd@echeque.com on Sun, Oct 28, 2001 at 08:58:30AM -0800
References: <3BDB078E.18198.204161@localhost>  <3BDBC8B6.22738.598FD9@localhost>
Message-ID: <20011028110848.A17199@informationanarchy.org>


On Sun, Oct 28, 2001 at 08:58:30AM -0800, jamesd at echeque.com wrote:
> It is unimportant. What matters is what those one kill are doing. 
> British soldiers were repressing colonials. The guys in the trade 
> towers were not doing anything to Muslims. 

So what about all the civilians in Afghanistan who are being 
killed by American and British bombs.

They aren't being killed because they are soldiers, or because
they support the Taliban, or because they hate the U.S.A.

They are killed simply because the U.S. and a few other countries are 
attacking and they happened to be sitting in their homes, caring for 
their children, eating, sleeping, etc. 

So are most of the Afghan civilians who are being killed doing 
anything to the U.S., U.K., Canada, etc.? I think not.

The devil in this is the old cliche, "the end justifies the means". 
This kind of thinking allows people to destroy the WTC, kill 
thousands of innocents in the U.S.A. and Afghanistan, allows the 
police in so called "civilized" first world countries to imprison, 
and torture people who have been charged with no crime (let alone 
convicted), and allows lawmakers to pass draconian legislation that 
will lead to more abuses of civil rights. It is a very simple trick 
of the mind with devestating consequences - once you allow yourself 
to forget that a particular person or group of people are actual 
human beings, who live, experience joy, and suffer just as we all do, 
any sort of brutality in support of a cause (revenge, justice, 
freedom, etc.) becomes relatively easy to inflict. 

I'll end this with a pointer to a well written insightful article 
about "the war"  - http://www.zmag.org/roywarpeace.htm 

---
Mark Henderson, mch at squirrel.com, mch at informationanarchy.org
 "Heilir æsir. Heilar ásynjur. Heil sjá in fjölnýta fold." - Sigrdrífumál
OpenPGP/GnuPG keys available at http://www.squirrel.com/pgpkeys.asc




From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Sun Oct 28 11:28:17 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 11:28:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Gloat on the Phone - Go to Jail
Message-ID: <200110281928.f9SJSIh07731@artifact.psychedelic.net>


Here's an intersting Reuters blurb on arrests made because people failed
to grieve properly on their phone lines.

It doesn't say how many of these intercepts were with warrants, how many
were secret court/national security intercepts, how many were illegal, and
how many were routed offshore to be sniffed by our allies.

Interesting times.

-----

NEW YORK (Reuters) -- Among almost 1,000 people being held in the United
States in connection with the hijacked-airliner attacks on the World Trade
Center and the Pentagon are people who made congratulatory telephone calls
minutes later, The New York Times reported in Sunday editions.
   
Although transcripts of the phone calls have not been made available, the
Times reports that officials have said some of the calls were
"congratulatory, even gloating."
   
These suspected associates of Saudi-born militant Osama bin Laden's al
Qaeda organization are among 977 people held on various charges related to
the September 11 attacks, which killed almost 5,000 people in New York,
Washington and Pennsylvania.
   
The paper said it had been unable to determine whether those who made the
jubilant calls were participants in the hijack plot or merely rejoicing
over the attacks.
   
FBI agents intercepted telephone calls, moved in and made arrests, holding
the bulk of those arrested on immigration or criminal violations and a
smaller group on material witness warrants, the newspaper reported.
   
Their identities and those of most of the people being held have not been
released by the Justice Department.
   
The newspaper said officials would not say how many people were detained
through the telephone intercepts, nor would they discuss evidence that any
of them proved to be members of the group organized by bin Laden,
Washington's prime suspect in the attacks.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From cryptomjs at eudoramail.com  Sun Oct 28 11:06:04 2001
From: cryptomjs at eudoramail.com (Mark Saarelainen)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 12:06:04 -0700
Subject: Criticize Israel - Get Fired
Message-ID: 


Actually, Jews are actively using the electromagnetic frequency systems of the U.S. government and intrelligence agencies to attack remotely individuals who criticize them or who may think against them in one way or another. I have written more about this on alt.politics.org.cia.

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=hain+jews+Markku

Markku J. Saarelainen

 
Autor:Mark (mjsone at ureach.com)
Asunto:Interesting .. in September, 1999 I wrote down correctly that the head of Jews is in Estee Lauder, although I did not know it ... this "hain" means "finality in Hebrew ... I started getting these understandings, when ... 
Grupos de noticias:alt.politics.org.cia, soc.culture.russian, soc.culture.nordic, soc.culture.usa
View: (This is the only article in this thread) | Original Format 
Fecha:2001-10-26 17:36:45 PST 
 

I had communicated to my own voicemail box at BellSouth "There are too
many Jews in the White House." and I had said "Play this music to your
grandparents" (I played loudly some 3rd Reich songs .. so I must
conclude that Jews attacked me started from the summer of 1999 after I
had told to the Kremlin and on the USENET that Boris Berezovsky and
other Jews must be fired etc ... Madeleine Albright was involved
against me as I correctly noted in my notes earlier (they used the
word insertation technique (basically word were placed to the phone
conversation between me and my seperated spouse on December 15, 1999
as I have noted ..)

They tried to kill me ... really KILL ME ... how interesting ... so
the U.S. government with Jews destroyed my family and stole my moneys
.. from the ordinary Finn.

------


A Medrash. Hashem said to Moshe "Hain Kirvu Yamecho Lamus". Your time
                has come. The end of your life is here.

                The Hebrew word 'Hain', the commentaries explain,
implies finality. Hashem
                told Moshe, "You have been praying, arguing and
negotiating with me to
                extend your life. It is not going to happen. The
conversation is closed. The
                decision is in. "Hain!" Your time has come. You will
not live to enter the land
                of Israel."

http://www.ou.org/torah/haber/thoughts/5760/vayelech60.htm



Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com




From cryptomjs at eudoramail.com  Sun Oct 28 11:06:11 2001
From: cryptomjs at eudoramail.com (Mark Saarelainen)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 12:06:11 -0700
Subject: Criticize Israel - Get Fired
Message-ID: 


Actually, Jews are actively using the electromagnetic frequency systems of the U.S. government and intrelligence agencies to attack remotely individuals who criticize them or who may think against them in one way or another. I have written more about this on alt.politics.org.cia.

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=hain+jews+Markku

Markku J. Saarelainen

 
Autor:Mark (mjsone at ureach.com)
Asunto:Interesting .. in September, 1999 I wrote down correctly that the head of Jews is in Estee Lauder, although I did not know it ... this "hain" means "finality in Hebrew ... I started getting these understandings, when ... 
Grupos de noticias:alt.politics.org.cia, soc.culture.russian, soc.culture.nordic, soc.culture.usa
View: (This is the only article in this thread) | Original Format 
Fecha:2001-10-26 17:36:45 PST 
 

I had communicated to my own voicemail box at BellSouth "There are too
many Jews in the White House." and I had said "Play this music to your
grandparents" (I played loudly some 3rd Reich songs .. so I must
conclude that Jews attacked me started from the summer of 1999 after I
had told to the Kremlin and on the USENET that Boris Berezovsky and
other Jews must be fired etc ... Madeleine Albright was involved
against me as I correctly noted in my notes earlier (they used the
word insertation technique (basically word were placed to the phone
conversation between me and my seperated spouse on December 15, 1999
as I have noted ..)

They tried to kill me ... really KILL ME ... how interesting ... so
the U.S. government with Jews destroyed my family and stole my moneys
.. from the ordinary Finn.

------


A Medrash. Hashem said to Moshe "Hain Kirvu Yamecho Lamus". Your time
                has come. The end of your life is here.

                The Hebrew word 'Hain', the commentaries explain,
implies finality. Hashem
                told Moshe, "You have been praying, arguing and
negotiating with me to
                extend your life. It is not going to happen. The
conversation is closed. The
                decision is in. "Hain!" Your time has come. You will
not live to enter the land
                of Israel."

http://www.ou.org/torah/haber/thoughts/5760/vayelech60.htm



Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com




From cryptomjs at eudoramail.com  Sun Oct 28 11:06:57 2001
From: cryptomjs at eudoramail.com (Mark Saarelainen)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 12:06:57 -0700
Subject: Criticize Israel - Get Fired
Message-ID: 


Actually, Jews are actively using the electromagnetic frequency systems of the U.S. government and intrelligence agencies to attack remotely individuals who criticize them or who may think against them in one way or another. I have written more about this on alt.politics.org.cia.

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=hain+jews+Markku

Markku J. Saarelainen

 
Autor:Mark (mjsone at ureach.com)
Asunto:Interesting .. in September, 1999 I wrote down correctly that the head of Jews is in Estee Lauder, although I did not know it ... this "hain" means "finality in Hebrew ... I started getting these understandings, when ... 
Grupos de noticias:alt.politics.org.cia, soc.culture.russian, soc.culture.nordic, soc.culture.usa
View: (This is the only article in this thread) | Original Format 
Fecha:2001-10-26 17:36:45 PST 
 

I had communicated to my own voicemail box at BellSouth "There are too
many Jews in the White House." and I had said "Play this music to your
grandparents" (I played loudly some 3rd Reich songs .. so I must
conclude that Jews attacked me started from the summer of 1999 after I
had told to the Kremlin and on the USENET that Boris Berezovsky and
other Jews must be fired etc ... Madeleine Albright was involved
against me as I correctly noted in my notes earlier (they used the
word insertation technique (basically word were placed to the phone
conversation between me and my seperated spouse on December 15, 1999
as I have noted ..)

They tried to kill me ... really KILL ME ... how interesting ... so
the U.S. government with Jews destroyed my family and stole my moneys
.. from the ordinary Finn.

------


A Medrash. Hashem said to Moshe "Hain Kirvu Yamecho Lamus". Your time
                has come. The end of your life is here.

                The Hebrew word 'Hain', the commentaries explain,
implies finality. Hashem
                told Moshe, "You have been praying, arguing and
negotiating with me to
                extend your life. It is not going to happen. The
conversation is closed. The
                decision is in. "Hain!" Your time has come. You will
not live to enter the land
                of Israel."

http://www.ou.org/torah/haber/thoughts/5760/vayelech60.htm


Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com




From jamesd at echeque.com  Sun Oct 28 12:58:03 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 12:58:03 -0800
Subject: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and   bounds )
In-Reply-To: <20011028110848.A17199@informationanarchy.org>
References: <3BDBC8B6.22738.598FD9@localhost>; from jamesd@echeque.com on Sun, Oct 28, 2001 at 08:58:30AM -0800
Message-ID: <3BDC00DB.2231.134DEE2@localhost>


    --
On Sun, Oct 28, 2001 at 08:58:30AM -0800, jamesd at echeque.com
wrote:
> > What matters is what those one kills are doing. British 
> > soldiers [in the American revolutionary war] were 
> > repressing colonials. The guys in the trade towers were 
> > not doing anything to Muslims.

On 28 Oct 2001, at 11:08, Mark Henderson wrote:
> So what about all the civilians in Afghanistan who are
> being killed by American and British bombs.

Collateral damage.  We are not targeting them.

Analogously, if someone grabs a human shield, and starts 
shooting at me, I am entitled to shoot back, and if the 
shield gets it, his blood is on the head of the guy who 
grabbed him, not my head.

> I'll end this with a pointer to a well written insightful 
> article about "the war"  - 
> http://www.zmag.org/roywarpeace.htm

I am unimpressed with lectures on morality given by those who 
worked for the KGB against their countrymen.

http://www.zmag.org are bunch of commies who have never found 
fault with any mass murderer, only those who defend 
themselves against mass murder, never opposed any
totalitarian tyrant, only those who make revolution against
tyrants.

I went to their web page.  The second person on the masthead 
was John Pilger, who used to be a KGB agent. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     qRNAZW+vCuwdc0Kqlz8Gg3RB7nDgLhw/Z8XamF3c
     4jI82HK0DObtBJr1S9eLXEyDwZv3hwadUWgYGTiv7

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     tGvHji52Za1V9gi3QXxpSqnJbFedxtqYFq8j2q7f
     4kyQHCygwaj6X4bfNP1jrrdEHuAT3CKLf0pihNVBh




From jya at pipeline.com  Sun Oct 28 13:51:55 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 13:51:55 -0800
Subject: Now we know why those 1000 are being held in NYC
In-Reply-To: <3BDBCB2B.21341.5497341@localhost>
References: 
Message-ID: <200110281857.NAA14419@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>


Don't be alarmed if it turns out the 1,000 being held in NYC are
hostages of US Attorney Mary Jo White and the New York
office of the FBI. The two offices are pissed that Ashcroft is
trying to take over the long-lived terrorism investigation without
properly rewarding those who have been running it. Some of
the New York attorneys and investigators have been reassigned
to DC but don't like the way they are being treated -- no doubt
in part due to different party affiliations, but more likely because
the Bush newcomers don't want to be condescended to by the 
New Yorkers who hate DC, its crud food, people and gossip.

New York and DC, Justice and FBI, have been at it for decades,
and this long-running vendetta is what underlies several
espionage cases, including Hansen's, but not only his. DC
sends people up to New York to counterspy on the operations, 
but they either get coopted or if uncooperative get fucked by 
being set up to take a fall. Various countries like Russia help 
out their New York buddies in screwing the competition. And
the reverse happens in DC to New Yorkers who are sucked
into that cesspool.

When the Soviets in New York battled the Soviets in DC,
both using their USG resources, and the USG doing the
same, it was war beyond ordinary counterintelligence 
comprehension. These battles have been going on since
the 1930s, and were set in motion by Hoover and his
Soviet counterpart. Then became institutionalized
featherbedding outdistancing DC's, if you can believe
that.

The CIA got ensnared in these deep seated treacheries
when it came along in 1947, as have most other of the intel
agencies, many of which share offices in New York, but
are widely spaced in DC, all attempting to get as far away
from toxic FBI HQ as possible.

There's a USG-mafia in New York that is far more complex 
than the organized crime kind, though there is cooperation with
those birds of a feather too. You can see representatives of
all these cozy groups sometimes lunching together up in Sylvia's
in Harlem, strolling over from a not well camouflaged satellite
suite of offices housed above the studio where a world-famous
cooking show is videoed. (We did a job across the street for a 
church one of whose deacon's owns the building and who 
happily bragged of his steady-rent tenants -- not that the 
neighborhood kids had not already scrawled their acronyms 
on the building, again and again, and their bros got paid to
repeatedly repaint.) 

The gaggle of antennas the agencies use there nicely fit in
among the TV antennas of the cooking show. The feds and
the actors on the TV shows share a cafeteria and it's damn hard
to spot who's who except for the Russians and Mobsters who
are dapper dans who tap fists like the locals and boogie at the 
dames who spic-call them piquito cujones. This is classified 
so shut your suckupper or your computers will anchor you to 
the toxic bottom.




From Jon.Beets at pacer.com  Sun Oct 28 13:00:45 2001
From: Jon.Beets at pacer.com (Jon Beets)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 15:00:45 -0600
Subject: Gloat on the Phone - Go to Jail
References: <200110281928.f9SJSIh07731@artifact.psychedelic.net>
Message-ID: <010201c15ff3$9d269e50$03d36b3f@pacer.com>


Does anyone have a link to this article.. I cannot find it anywhere..

Jon Beets


----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Cordian" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 1:28 PM
Subject: Gloat on the Phone - Go to Jail


> Here's an intersting Reuters blurb on arrests made because people failed
> to grieve properly on their phone lines.
>
> It doesn't say how many of these intercepts were with warrants, how many
> were secret court/national security intercepts, how many were illegal, and
> how many were routed offshore to be sniffed by our allies.
>
> Interesting times.
>
> -----
>
> NEW YORK (Reuters) -- Among almost 1,000 people being held in the United
> States in connection with the hijacked-airliner attacks on the World Trade
> Center and the Pentagon are people who made congratulatory telephone calls
> minutes later, The New York Times reported in Sunday editions.
>
> Although transcripts of the phone calls have not been made available, the
> Times reports that officials have said some of the calls were
> "congratulatory, even gloating."
>
> These suspected associates of Saudi-born militant Osama bin Laden's al
> Qaeda organization are among 977 people held on various charges related to
> the September 11 attacks, which killed almost 5,000 people in New York,
> Washington and Pennsylvania.
>
> The paper said it had been unable to determine whether those who made the
> jubilant calls were participants in the hijack plot or merely rejoicing
> over the attacks.
>
> FBI agents intercepted telephone calls, moved in and made arrests, holding
> the bulk of those arrested on immigration or criminal violations and a
> smaller group on material witness warrants, the newspaper reported.
>
> Their identities and those of most of the people being held have not been
> released by the Justice Department.
>
> The newspaper said officials would not say how many people were detained
> through the telephone intercepts, nor would they discuss evidence that any
> of them proved to be members of the group organized by bin Laden,
> Washington's prime suspect in the attacks.
>
> --
> Eric Michael Cordian 0+
> O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
> "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From Jon.Beets at pacer.com  Sun Oct 28 13:03:27 2001
From: Jon.Beets at pacer.com (Jon Beets)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 15:03:27 -0600
Subject: Gloat on the Phone - Go to Jail
References: <200110281928.f9SJSIh07731@artifact.psychedelic.net>
Message-ID: <010901c15ff3$fdac8c80$03d36b3f@pacer.com>


Finally found it.. Thanks anyway..

Jon Beets




From tolan at citipages.net  Sun Oct 28 07:44:30 2001
From: tolan at citipages.net (Tolan Blundell)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 15:44:30 -0000
Subject: web.archive.org Internet archive to open ---google +  archeology
Message-ID: 


Excellent idea as the wayback is it really doesn't seem to capture anywhere
near as wide a range of pages as google, and it also seems to be straining
under the weight of requests. the number of internal server errors it
generates is absurd, especially considering the size of some of it's
sponsors.

perhaps a google mirror that was archived periodically would be a better
bet?

tolan

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Stewart [mailto:bill.stewart at pobox.com]
Sent: 27 October 2001 04:37
To: Tolan Blundell
Cc: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
Subject: Re: web.archive.org Internet archive to open ---google +
archeology


It's not as outrageous as you'd think.  100GB drives are around $200,
which means that a terabyte will cost you about $3K if you throw in a PC
and some networking gear to connect it, so you could replicate that
in your basement next to your DES-cracker for about the same price -
the more expensive problem is getting the fiber optic connection
from the Presidio to your basement to keep it updated.

More to the point, recent news articles say the Feds have been
getting Google to delete things for them.
         http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/current/msg00505.html
Anybody know what's been deleted, and whether it's still in Wayback,
and whether we can get copies out into the public before anyone pressures
Brewster Kahle?

At 06:10 PM 10/25/2001 +0100, Tolan Blundell wrote:
>Thats fine, I've got a 100TB server in my attic you can use if you want? ;)

>jbdigriz:
>Way cool. It needs to be mirrored, though. Single point of
>failure/distribution invites history being rewritten the way it always
>has been until now.


> > http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-102501archive.story
> > By JOSEPH MENN, Times Staff Writer
> >
> > SAN FRANCISCO -- An Internet archive containing more text than any
> > library in history will open its digital doors today, giving researchers
> > and the public access to just about everything posted on the World Wide
> > Web over the last five years.






From tonyw9 at mindspring.com  Sun Oct 28 12:54:19 2001
From: tonyw9 at mindspring.com (Tony)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 15:54:19 -0500
Subject: life is wonderful today!19090
References: <00007dc0616d$000023f1$000067c0@smtp.eyou.com=1>
Message-ID: <3BDC707B.1FDD65F8@mindspring.com>


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From ravage at ssz.com  Sun Oct 28 14:23:50 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 16:23:50 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and   bounds )
In-Reply-To: <3BDBC8B6.22738.598FD9@localhost>
Message-ID: 



On Sun, 28 Oct 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote:

> Jim Choate:
> > Why is where they were killed important?
> 
> It is unimportant.  What matters is what those one kill are doing.

Ah, here is the double standard in your argument.

>  British soldiers were repressing colonials.  The guys in the trade
> towers were not doing anything to Muslims.

And what about the businesses that were used to support those British
soldiers. Would they have been legitimate targets (which they were to
the colonials)? In a parallel way the WTC is the business that supports
the oppressive forces, or at least that's the way they see it. Then of
course we can discuss the entire concept of 'property ownership',
'breaking contract' and 'repress colonials'.

This brings up the aspect of 'self determination' that folks like yourself
seem to be missing. Go read the first two para's of the DoI. Then reflect
on this;

The legitimate use of self-defence with respect to self-determination is
from the view of the oppressed. No consideration is made for those who one
fights against to end the oppression. Freedom is about the individual and
what they are justified in doing if provoked.

Now look at world politics since the 1850's...then consider certain
rejoinders by the founding fathers about getting involved in other peoples
business...then consider rampant globalization w/ centralized political
and military authority...

Further, you wish to us to view the WTC as a isolated senseless event,
when in fact it is not. It is only one more act in a 140 year refutation
of American Democracy.

We reap what we sow.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From mch at informationanarchy.org  Sun Oct 28 16:47:27 2001
From: mch at informationanarchy.org (Mark Henderson)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 16:47:27 -0800
Subject: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and   bounds )
In-Reply-To: <3BDC00DB.2231.134DEE2@localhost>; from jamesd@echeque.com on Sun, Oct 28, 2001 at 12:58:03PM -0800
References: <3BDBC8B6.22738.598FD9@localhost>; <20011028110848.A17199@informationanarchy.org> <3BDC00DB.2231.134DEE2@localhost>
Message-ID: <20011028164726.A19873@informationanarchy.org>


On Sun, Oct 28, 2001 at 12:58:03PM -0800, jamesd at echeque.com wrote:
> Collateral damage.  We are not targeting them.

Ah, so even though collateral damage is the inevitable consequence of 
war, that makes it all OK. I get it. So what for the suffering of 
thousands in pursuit of revenge? "The end justifies the means". 
Right. If a million people have to die, be maimed, or lose family 
members so that Bin Laden can be captured you're OK with that.

> http://www.zmag.org are bunch of commies who have never found 
> fault with any mass murderer, only those who defend 
> themselves against mass murder, never opposed any
> totalitarian tyrant, only those who make revolution against
> tyrants.

That's a good defence. Just label the people whose opinions you don't 
like as a "bunch of commies". Then you don't need to take them 
seriously. I'm impressed.

You seem to forget there are people in the left who are for 
restructuring of society so that there is much less government,
and less power centralised in the hands of a few. 

Cheers,
Mark




From mv at cdc.org  Sun Oct 28 17:05:12 2001
From: mv at cdc.org (Major Variola (ret))
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 17:05:12 -0800
Subject: Criticize Israel - Get Fired
Message-ID: <3BDCAB47.69A19216@cdc.org>


At 12:06 PM 10/28/01 -0700, Mark Saarelainen wrote:
>Actually, Jews are actively using the electromagnetic frequency systems
of the U.S. government and intrelligence agencies to attack remotely
individuals who criticize them or who may think against them in one way
or another. I have written more about this on alt.politics.org.cia.

"Waiter! What he's having!"




From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Sun Oct 28 18:31:23 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 18:31:23 -0800
Subject: Soothe or alarm:  What is "weaponized" anthrax?
Message-ID: <20011028183123.C10035@navel.introspect>


I posted on this question Oct 21, saying:


    [Rep Frist's (R-TN) comment] leads one to question the descriptions
    of anthrax as "weaponized" and "non-weaponized", particularly as
    there are several dimensions of weaponization.  The lesser is spore
    size, with 5 micron being the preferred form for inducing inhalation
    anthrax.  The greater is antibiotic resistance, and it appears that
    this is the criterion on which statements of "non-weaponized
    anthrax" are being made.  Truth seems to be that resistance is
    secondary to spore size given the difficulty of treating advanced
    cases of inhalation anthrax.

    My suggestion to the press would be to disaggregate the term
    "weaponized" to its components:  inhalable, and antibiotic
    resistant.  This provides the public with more useful information:
    the bacterium is or is not a grave infection threat (inhalable), and
    the bacterium is or is not treatable (resistant).  This is
    actionable information: inhalable, but nonresistant, anthrax means
    that individuals should be aware of respiratory illness symptoms and
    submit for early diagnosis and/or treatment.


Today's SF Chronicle reports:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2001/10/28/MN188786.DTL&t
ype=printable

    When it comes to describing anthrax, it is as if they are speaking
    different languages.

    "Weapons-grade material," Gephardt, the House Democratic leader from
    Missouri, told reporters this week, describing the potency of the
    anthrax in a letter opened in Daschle's office.

    "Common variety," Senate Majority Leader Daschle from South Dakota
    said of the same white powder.

    Scientists say both are right.

    The material was weapons grade, in the sense that it was finely
    milled and aerosolized to make it easier to infiltrate a victim's
    lungs. At the same time,

    it was a common variety that was not genetically altered, making it
    fully treatable with common antibiotics.

    So which statement is more responsible?

    [...]


    "I don't think 'weaponized' has any medical or scientific value,"
    [Ridge] explained late this week. "It seems to have different
    meanings . . .  to different people."

    The discrepancy in labeling the potency of the poison is a perfect
    illustration of the challenges confronting authorities as they try
    to communicate complex, evolving and grim information on live
    television, often on an hourly basis.

    The failure to use precise language can have fatal consequences.

    On Oct. 18, three days after Daschle's letter was opened, Postmaster
    General John Potter invited the press into a mail facility in
    southeast Washington, and told the assembled reporters and workers
    that "there is only a minute chance" that anthrax spores could have
    escaped from envelopes and harmed postal workers.

    Today, Potter is on a 60-day dose of antibiotics. So are the
    reporters and anyone else who attended the news conference,
    including Washington, D.C., Mayor Anthony Williams and his
    80-year-old mother. Two workers at the facility have since died.

    Authorities knew at the time that the refined spores were highly
    potent, but based on previous experience in New Jersey and Florida,
    had no reason to believe they would contaminate the Washington mail
    house. And they wanted to calm anxious postal workers.

    "The administration has been forthright in making information known
    as soon as information is available," said White House spokesman Ari
    Fleischer. "It is the nature of this type of attack involving
    anthrax that information develops over time."

    Nevertheless, there is frustration from those who feel that soft
    words intended to soothe might instead lull people into a false
    sense of complacency.

    "I think we've got to stop parsing words and trying to be anything
    other than accurate about what this is," Gephardt said of the
    biological attack on the Capitol. "This is highly sophisticated
    material. It is small in size and it aerosolizes, and so you've got
    to be careful in the way it can be handled.

    "I believe people are smart. If you arm them (people) with accurate
    information, you have a better chance of preventing successful
    attacks," Gephardt said.

Peace.

--
Karsten M. Self        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?             Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]




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From: buena at freenfamous.com (buena at freenfamous.com)
Date: 28 Oct 2001 19:16:09 -0000
Subject: I found your address
Message-ID: <6251951d50b0$2ad8105c$60959662@freenfamous.com>


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From jamesd at echeque.com  Sun Oct 28 19:46:07 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 19:46:07 -0800
Subject: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and   bounds )
In-Reply-To: <20011028164726.A19873@informationanarchy.org>
References: <3BDC00DB.2231.134DEE2@localhost>; from jamesd@echeque.com on Sun, Oct 28, 2001 at 12:58:03PM -0800
Message-ID: <3BDC607F.22164.629A96@localhost>


    --
James A. Donald:
> > http://www.zmag.org are bunch of commies who have never 
> > found fault with any mass murderer, only those who defend 
> > themselves against mass murder, never opposed any 
> > totalitarian tyrant, only those who make revolution 
> > against tyrants.

On 28 Oct 2001, at 16:47, Mark Henderson wrote:
> That's a good defence. Just label the people whose opinions 
> you don't like as a "bunch of commies".

If anyone wants to know what kind of a world those at Znet
intend, observe how Znet itself is run.  Silence, conformity, 
censorship, the party line, and routine revisions of the past 
when that past is found to be inconvenient. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     QA+l8NZNxX9v22bJy5jp2hDy+cLphFnL4qFYy5hf
     4EQI2iEDHGSq8fS4qSfTBkHcy79K3DrCBB0Qz63xz




From jamesd at echeque.com  Sun Oct 28 19:46:07 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 19:46:07 -0800
Subject: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and   bounds )
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3BDBC8B6.22738.598FD9@localhost>
Message-ID: <3BDC607F.10663.629AB4@localhost>


    --
James A. Donald:
> > What matters is what those one kills are doing.
> >  British soldiers were repressing colonials.  The guys in 
> >  the trade towers were not doing anything to Muslims.

Jim Choate:
> And what about the businesses that were used to support 
> those British soldiers.

 You are digging up rationales for killing anyone anywhere. 
Why does this not surprise me?

Some people need killing, some people don't.  The difference
is not always clear, but when it comes to imperial soldiers
and trade towers, the difference is clear enough.

And the difference is also clear enough when it comes to
those people who found themselves paying taxes to support an
imperial war they knew nothing of.

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     UppGWq3D7eSctDJgLdehyyLMKmPwKNcQaSfOlnZC
     4GmXYE0L56qnxB7Vwsoy/PnsVrh8OWqYGfNeHf2hb




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From: sara_d_v at usa.net (m)
Date: 28 Oct 2001 19:55:48 -0000
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <1004298948.83393.qmail@ech>


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From anmetet at freedom.gmsociety.org  Sun Oct 28 17:38:38 2001
From: anmetet at freedom.gmsociety.org (An Metet)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 20:38:38 -0500
Subject: Where The Torture Never Stops...
Message-ID: <92d414a5be434858504813600398e7d1@freedom.gmsociety.org>


Steve squeaks:

> > Besides, "Prison is not punishment to the literate."
>
> What could be more obvious?

    Isn't it obvious by now that this is just some trolling
faggot LEO? 
   Just like the other one with the long drivel about how
jail was okay for the "suspects"? 
Sounded like Jeff Gorden after a few beers. 




From brad at templetons.com  Sun Oct 28 20:55:33 2001
From: brad at templetons.com (Brad Templeton)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 20:55:33 -0800
Subject: Short notice: Anybody interested in Inst. Msging and Crypto wanna speak at conference Wednesday, Santa Clara?
Message-ID: <20011028205533.A23926@main.templetons.com>



This is Brad Templeton from the EFF.  This Wednesday I'm moderating a
panel at Jeff Pulver's semi-annual conference on Presence and Instant
Messaging.   It's a smallish (couple of hundred) conference where you'll
see most of the commercial players in instant messaging, with the very
notable exception of AOL.

However, having attended this conference I have found that most of the
people there pay little attention to issues of security and privacy in
the IM world.  Sometimes for real reasons (most IM is forced by NAT and
firewalls to be routed through central servers) but often times simply
because they haven't bothered.

The panel I am moderating is on these topics of Presence and Instant
Messaging, and due to various circumstances, right now I have only 2
other speakers on it, who will speak about the privacy and security work
being done by two standards bodies, the PAM formum, and the IETF SIP working
group.  I have my own talk on the design and political issues, but I can
move a lot of that into my plenary talk later in the day where I want to
get those issues out.

In particular I am interested in technologically interesting projects or
research to allow privacy, encryption and anonymity in instant messaging,
and also in presence data and location-aware devices.  (Part of the
conference is also on location aware services, E911 manadated location-aware
phones etc.)

So I apologize for not asking until today, but if you have done any work
in these areas you would like to talk about briefly, I could have a slot
for you, and get you free attendance at this normally $2,000 conference.
Last time Lenny Foner gave a great talk on his work.

The conference info is at http://www.pulver.com/pim/ and my session is
This Wedesday, Oct 31, at 9:45am.  It is at the Marriott in Santa Clara.

Sorry as well for posting without regularly reading cypherpunks, but I
need to keep my email load down.




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Sun Oct 28 21:26:11 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 22:26:11 -0700
Subject: [Fwd: [biofuel] VW presents new synthetic fuel strategy]
In-Reply-To: <3BD9BF50.4975FC4E@cybershamanix.com>
References: <3BD716D3.D822DC6D@cybershamanix.com>
  <3BD80563.CA321DF3@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011028201400.03370650@idiom.com>


At 02:54 PM 10/26/2001 -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>        Biodiesel is being sold in the US as we speak for anywhere from $.99
>to $2.50 a gallon, depending upon whether it's made from waste or virgin
>vegetable oil. Given the economies of scale working here, once they build
>up a larger presence, those prices will drop. And, if I'm not mistaken,
>much of Europe is already mandating that all diesel be sold with at least
>20% biodiesel.
>         You might also look at Brazil which fuels a large portion of it's
>vehicles with ethanol already.
>           VW's new fuel will be even cheaper.

Making biodiesel from virgin oil scales well, since you can use
non-food-grade oils, but there's still a substantial ecological effect
of converting land from non-farming or food-farming to energy-farming.
Waste vegetable oil has a much different scaling ability -
until you get most fast-food french-fry leftovers used for fuel oil,
it scales up really well, but after that it hits the wall.

Ethanol has similar problems - you need to grow a lot of sugary or starchy 
crops,
which not only displace food crops (having similar land needs),
but at least in third-world countries tend to be grown by
slash-and-burn agriculture, which rapidly destroys land, usually rainforest.

On the other hand, for an area that doesn't have oil,
the tradeoff between wasting farmland for energy crops and
using it for export crops to buy energy from outside could go either way.
Of course, when the "area" has government boundaries defining it,
especially in the third world, there tends to be a huge amount of
social policy and/or corruption distorting the market prices.
But sometimes you can exploit other governments' corrupt social policies,
e.g. grow cocaine or opium and buy oil or food or toys with the profits.




From reeza at hawaii.rr.com  Mon Oct 29 01:06:54 2001
From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 23:06:54 -1000
Subject: Pravda Propaganda On The NRA, GOA and Militias
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011028230250.02aa8560@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com>


At 09:01 AM 10/26/01 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>On Friday, October 26, 2001, at 08:27 AM, Matthew Gaylor wrote:
>
>Matt Gaylor has forwarded this article. My profound thanks to him. This 
>is one of the most insightful articles I've seen on the real internal 
>political situation in the U.S., the "red" vs. "blue" separation.
>
>Truly ironic that it takes a "red" to understand the "reds" in the U.S.

I'm not so sure Bill White is a "red."

>> Copyright )1999 by "Pravda.RU". When reproducing our materials in whole 
>> or in part, reference to Pravda.RU should be made.
>
>Gladly.

But, the web page should say "copyright 2001" eh?

Bill White, the author of the subject-line story, wrote something for 
Indymedia.org also - it sheds a bit of light on him, perhaps also on
Tim's response to the article.



http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=79625

BILL WHITE: ISRAELI LOBBY SCRAMBLING FOR NEW APPROACH TO CRISIS (PART 1) 

The following is the first in a two-part series by Bill White. We will 
feature the second installment tomorrow. 

As Their Allies In Defense Face A Purge, America's "Official" Jewish 
Groups Look For Justice To Promote Agenda 

"America is finally running out of patience with us" the headline read 
in the Israeli daily Ha'aretz Tuesday. Sharon had just rebuffed the 
American demand that Israel withdraw its troops to behind the lines of 
occupation, and was holding more than five thousand Palestinian refugees 
trapped in the 'Aida and 'Azza/Beit Jibrin camps. On Wednesday, the 
butcher Sharon began shooting the refugees as he did in 1982.. The US 
State Department was "feeling like a fire brigade" struggling with the 
potential for war not just in Afghanistan, but in Occupied Palestine and 
Kashmir as well. On the home front, Israel's allies in the United States 
were also scrambling. Having been defeated in their attempts to use the 
September 11 bombing to draw the United States closer to Israel, they 
were facing a purge of their supporters in the Defense Department, as it 
became clear that their agents on the inside were leaking US secrets to 
both Israel and the press. The "official" Jewish lobby was now 
scrambling for damage control, and grasping at anything to distract 
public attention away from the US-Israeli relationship. 

"Saudi Arabia is the home of . one of the most fanatical, intolerant, 
and extreme forms of Islamic fundamentalism," Mortimer Zuckerman, an 
American media baron, publisher of US News and World Report as well as 
the New York Daily News, and head of the powerful Conference of 
Presidents of Major Jewish Organizations, wrote in his weekly column. 
There had been a "mendacious implication . that the September 11 attacks 
were related to America's relationship with Israel" but now, Zuckerman 
wrote, "we . must face the harsh fact that Saudi Arabia, a nation we 
have long supported, is a central disseminator of the poisonous spores 
of fanaticism." 

Could the Zionist lobby be serious? Could it really be trying to 
persuade the public that the reason for bin Laden's attack on New York 
was not US support of Israel, but the fact that the US paid "moderate" 
Muslim regimes in the Middle East primarily to keep them from attacking 
Israel? If a directive issued by Israel's Foreign Ministry to pro-
Israeli journalists was indication, they were. And the attempt to 
distract the public showed the growing desperation the lobby is using in 
its efforts to keep the disintegrating situation in the Middle East from 
becoming a disintegration of their political power here at home. 

The Changing Tune 

Only a month ago, the Zionist-dominated elements of the American press 
were demanding the heads not of just the Taliban, but of the entire 
population of the Islamic world. 

"America's enemy is the Islamic Axis: Iran, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Sudan 
and Afghanistan and the groups they fund, support and direct. These 
groups include the cells of Osama Bin Laden, Hamas, Hezbollah and the 
PLO," wrote ex-Israeli propaganda minister turned American journalist 
Zev Chafets, in Zuckerman's New York Daily News, "The U.S. must invade 
these countries (if there is time), dismantle their unlatched 
governments, disperse their armies and seize their arsenals. . If there 
isn't time [they] will have to be destroyed by whatever means necessary: 
the Japanese model." 

Chafets was not alone. 

"The enemy has identified itself in public and openly . Its name is 
radical Islam" wrote columnist Charles Krauthammer on Sept 12, "there 
should be no talk of bringing these people to 'swift justice' . We must 
carry their war to them." 

They were just two of hundreds of voices, most of them Zionist, or at 
least tied into America's "official" Jewish lobby, that demanded the 
destruction of Islam. 

Little more than a month later, their tune had changed, from a rumbling 
war-mongering drum beat to a softer song of explanation and excuses: 

"What spawned the real Osama bin Laden . was the infidel's 'occupation'' 
of Saudi Arabia, home to Mecca and Medina, the holiest cities in Islam." 
wrote Krauthammer on October 19, as he played along with the fiddlers 
trying to dance America's attention away from Israel, "Bin Laden . in 
giving reasons for his jihad on America, never fails to cite the 
starving and bombing of Iraq." 

Newspaper columns now avoided talk of Israel, not even recognizing the 
Israeli occupation as a possible complaint of bin Laden's, and certainly 
not mentioning it in the context of "terrorism". Israel was no longer 
safe. The Israeli lobby was on the defensive. 

Elder Lore 

There is no question that a Jewish lobby, with goals and interest beyond 
just Zionism and Israel, exists in America. It is divided into three 
major "umbrella" organizations - the National Jewish Community Relations 
Advisory Council (NCRAC or "nacrac"), the Conference of Presidents of 
Major Jewish Organizations (the "President's Conference"), and the 
American-Israeli Political Action Committee (AIPAC). Each organizations 
is a council of smaller groups, and has responsibility for a certain 
area of Jewish political life -- NCRAC issues a yearly document laying 
out the domestic political line that the nation's Jewish groups have 
agreed to adhere to, the President's Conference issues the foreign 
policy line, and AIPAC conducts the actual lobbying of Congress and the 
Administration. 

There are nine major groups that form these councils, though each group 
has between 50 (for the President's Conference) and several hundred 
members on its theoretical governing body (and AIPAC is unofficially 
controlled by it's four-member "officer's committee"). There are the 
groups that represent the three main trends of American religious 
Judaism - the national unions for the Reform, Conservative and Orthodox 
synagogues. There are the three "defense agencies" - the Anti-Defamation 
League (ADL), American Jewish Congress, and the American Jewish 
Committee. Then there are the three women's organizations - Hadassah, 
the National Council of Jewish Women, and the Women's American ORT. 
There are additionally as many as 300 other "official" Jewish 
organizations active in the country and contributing representatives to 
the councils in various ways. 

The lobby works like the Mafia within its own community, brutally 
suppressing Jewish voices that dissent from its foreign policy dictates. 
According to Jewish writer JJ Goldberg, editor of the Jewish commentary 
paper the Forward, and author of the book "Jewish Power": 

"By mid-1976 . NCRAC and the American Jewish Committee ordered up 
internal studies on the limits of dissent. The Presidents Conference and 
the Synagogue Council of American held public inquiries on the topic. 
All the organizations reached the same conclusion: American Jews had the 
right to discuss issues freely, but only within discreet forums, outside 
public view. . 

"Working closely with [Israeli Ambassador Simcha] Dinitz and his staff, 
the Presidents Conference and NCRAC began to draw up a set of baseline 
principles to govern behavior within the organized Jewish community. 
They boiled down to three basic tenants. One was that Israelis were the 
only ones entitled to decide Israeli policy, since they alone bore the 
risks. The second was that American Jews must stand publicly united with 
Israel, and air disagreements only in private. The third was that Israel 
would no negotiate with Palestinian terrorists, since talking to them 
would grant them legitimacy 

"These rules were quickly taken up by the Jewish leadership as sacred 
write from Jerusalem. Jews who disagreed found themselves unwelcome in 
community forums, asked to leave governing boards, shouted down at 
meetings. Even luminaries . began to find themselves ostracized after 
they endorsed Middle East compromise." 

Like the mafia, they will rub you out - not your life, but your 
reputation. With extensive contacts inside both political parties and 
the mainstream press, the "official" Jewish community keeps its members 
under tight lock and key. 

Cracks In The Press 

The Lobby's muscle arm in America and abroad, though it is often 
impolitic to state it outright, are the major media institutions in 
America that are owned by Jews, combined with those that are not owned 
by Jews, but dominated by non-Jewish Zionists. (see "American Media Uses 
Disinformation To Guide Policy") To this they add many of America's most 
widely published and widely read opinion columnists, editors, 
"independent" publishers, and reporters. Even those in the media who 
choose to distance themselves are not immune to its pressures, as two 
American journalists recently discovered when they were purged from 
their newspapers for anti-Israeli statements. 

Freelance writer Jim Moore was the first of the two. Over the weekend, 
he submitted an article to the Tallahassee Democrat, daily newspaper of 
Tallahassee, Florida, and owned by the Knight-Ridder Corporation. The 
article was one of several he had written that were critical of Israel, 
but this one was a little different. It included a quote from Ariel 
Sharon, broadcast on Col Yisrael radio, that "Jewish people rule 
America." Managing Editor Mizell Stewart feared the implications of 
Moore's piece and refused to print. Moore received notice barred from 
ever again writing for the paper the next day. 

Though Israeli officials have publicly admitted that Sharon "had bouts 
of anger during a recent Knesset meeting and that he said 'things that 
shouldn't be said,'" this didn't matter to Knight-Ridder. Though it is 
not a Jewish owned or managed company, it still plays ball. When asked 
to explain their actions, Stewart referred Pravda's inquiries to a 
secondary editor who declined to respond. 

A second, and bigger, crack appeared over the weekend in upstate New 
York, where two editors for the Oneida Daily Dispatch were fired after 
publishing an article quoting a Pakistani man who claimed that the 
September 11 attacks were conducted by Israel's Mossad. The article, and 
all references to the two, were pulled from the Daily Dispatch's website 
(http://www.oneidadispatch.com), and according to an Associated Press 
article on the case that ran on October 19, Managing Editor Jean Ryan 
and City Editor Dale Seth were dismissed from the paper. 
Notsurprisingly, the paper is owned by the Newhouse Media Group, a 
Jewish newspaper group owned by the brothers Samuel and Donald Newhouse - 
two men who's wire services regularly carry often ridiculous 
articlesattacking "right-wingers" and "racists", real and imagined, 
across America. 

But the third "crack", though it was only slight, is perhaps the one 
that most threatens the currently locked armed approach of the media in 
its attempts to misinform the American public. When Saudi Prince 
Alwaleed bin Talal bin Abdul Aziz Alsaud had his $10 million dollar 
check rejected by New York Mayor Rudolph Giuliani, every newspaper in 
New York applauded Giuliani but one - the usually Zionist New York Post 
if Rupert Murdoch's News Corp. Why? According to columnist Johnathan 
Tobin, writing in Jewish World Review, "[the Prince] is, among other 
things, a major stockholder in News Corp., the multinational media 
conglomerate that owns the Post." Defensive Front 

It is not the occasional slip of a reporter's tongue, however, which has 
the Lobby in a dither, nor is it the small financial influence of one 
Saudi on one paper that has never truly been in their control. What 
bothers them most is that everything they demanded of the Bush 
administration - war on Iraq, war on Syria, war on Hizbollah, war on 
Hamas - had not only been denied them, but they are facing, for the 
first time in thirty years, a government that seems ready to simply 
remove them from policy making altogether. 

Two Defense Department officials - Richard Perle on the Defense Policy 
Board and Paul Wolfowitz, the Deputy Secretary of Defense - comprise the 
core of the Zionist lobby's influence over US foreign policy. But their 
dual loyalty has caused them to leak to the press a number of important 
details of the US military's actions in the Afghan campaign - including 
top secret information on a US Special Forces raid on airfield near the 
city of Kandahar. The information caused the raid to fail, and the 
nearly 200 Special Forces troops involved in it to force evacuate the 
area only two hours into their mission. The result has been a Secretary 
of Defense who has threatened to not only dismiss, but possibly arrest, 
the "unknown" individuals responsible: 

"The fact that some members of the press knew enough about those 
operations to ask the questions and to print the stories was clearly 
because someone in the Pentagon had provided them that information. And 
clearly, it put at risk the individuals involved in the operation," 
Rumsfeld told the London Times Monday, and "It is terrible. And I just 
can't imagine people being that irresponsible that they're willing to do 
that . I couldn't care less where the source of the leak is, the 
responsibility is the same." 

Though Rumsfeld did back off his threats to arrest those responsible, 
and stated that responsibility was "unclear", it is clear that the lead 
candidates for the leak, two men who have been previously identified as 
leaking Pentagon data to the members of the press such as radical 
pro-Israeli journalists Bill Safire and William Kristol, were Perle and 
Wolfowitz, causing some observers to wonder if the President's 
Conference's dynamic duo were about to be dismissed from public duties. 

And as a further indication of US unhappiness with Israeli-loyal 
"American" citizens in the military, the Jerusalem Post reported Tuesday 
on the first wartime purge of an Israeli-American "dual citizen" from US 
forces. US Army Reserve Major Shawn Pine was relieved of his command of 
the 300th Military Intelligence Company of Austin, Texas, Tuesday after 
being accused of suspicious links to the Israeli military-intelligence 
complex. Pine, of course, accused the Army of "anti-Semitism", but all 
his complaining has not gotten him his reinstatement. 

Part II tomorrow.....






From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sun Oct 28 21:57:46 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 23:57:46 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and    bounds )
In-Reply-To: <3BDCC34A.299396B1@mozcom.com>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 29 Oct 2001, F. Marc de Piolenc wrote:

> Let's try to spell this out so even you can understand it, Jim. The
> distinction is between killing combatants and killing noncombatants. Do
> you get that? Location is incidental. Motive is irrelevant to the
> definition. 

I understand your point. It's specious. The distinction you try to draw is
based on a flawed morality. You believe that there is some effective
difference between attacking a soldier of a country, and the mother of
that soldier. That somehow attacking only certain aspects of a society are
allowed. Then when 'your' side commits equal acts they are somehow
justified because 'your' side is the 'right' side. That somehow the people
who vote to put a certain contingent in charge are then somehow insulated
from the consequences of the acts of those representatives.

So much for "Of the people, By the people, For the people".

The fact is that there are no 'innocents'. There never were.

> American revolutionaries killed British soldiers and their unfortunate
> Hessian co-belligerents, not office workers in London (or Boston for
> that matter). That's what makes them something other than terrorists.

The British certainly didn't see it that way. They saw some group of
miscreants raising hell in THEIR country. People it's worth noting a
significant fraction of which were not generaly born in this country.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sun Oct 28 22:06:03 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 00:06:03 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and   bounds )
In-Reply-To: <3BDC607F.10663.629AB4@localhost>
Message-ID: 



On Sun, 28 Oct 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote:

> Jim Choate:
> > And what about the businesses that were used to support 
> > those British soldiers.
> 
>  You are digging up rationales for killing anyone anywhere. 
> Why does this not surprise me?

Actually I'm trying to get you to be more precise with your 'litmus test'.
The fact is that you draw a specious distinction as to attacking one group
over a community and another. As if it's ok to kill soldiers but not their
mothers. Unless of course it's us doing the killing, for whatever reason
we've used to justify it.

> is not always clear, but when it comes to imperial soldiers
> and trade towers, the difference is clear enough.

Really? How? Why is attacking imperial soldiers on land they believe is
theirs any different?
 
> And the difference is also clear enough when it comes to
> those people who found themselves paying taxes to support an
> imperial war they knew nothing of.

Seems to me that if one takes active, supportive measures with respect to
their government they can hardly call themselves 'innocent'.

Who were these people paying taxes for a war they knew nothing of? This
certainly didn't apply to the British. The general populace was informed
as to what was going on.

Realistically, how is 'terrorism' different from 'guerilla warfare'?


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From squid at panix.com  Mon Oct 29 00:51:30 2001
From: squid at panix.com (Yeoh Yiu)
Date: 29 Oct 2001 03:51:30 -0500
Subject: Market Competition for Security Measures
In-Reply-To: <1047397B-C8A0-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>
References: <1047397B-C8A0-11D5-8673-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: 


Tim May  writes:

> This debate is one of my favorites: security and the role of market
> forces. I regret not having the time/energy to tighten and polish this
> essay below. Some paragraphs are almost note-like. If you can handle
> John Young, you can handle this.
...

> (There are interesting issues of "danger to others." Friedman the
> Younger covers this in his recent book on economics. "Law's Order." To
> wit, XYZ Airlines, with no security procedures, might be denied use of
> various airports, etc. A standard tort issue. The outcome is not
> precisely known, but a move toward "market competition for security
> measures" would flesh out many of these issues and outcomes.)

In the current environment in the USA, that would be, 'XYZ airlines
denied use of US airspace' or 'denied use of anywhere within range of
US airspace.'

The problem with torts to address danger to others is that 
the potential value of the torts for events such as 0911
is so huge, nobody could afford to pay the damages.   

Alas, pre-emptive action to prevent such threats seems resonable.
This resobning should not be used to justify stupid, inept and counter
-productive pre-emtive action, but of course it will.

  "Despite all the rhetoric and mobilization of the police and military,
   the only real act of successfully opposing terrorists occurred when
   civilians took matters into their own hands on the fourth hijacked
   plane on September 11. While our government has failed miserably to
   protect anyone, this foiling of a fourth attack, apparently targeted
   against the White House, shows that our fellow citizens are still our
   best defense." -  http://english.pravda.ru/usa/2001/10/15/18035.html


[ Various good points about competition and diversity of
  security measures deleted.]

YY




From nobody at dizum.com  Sun Oct 28 19:21:46 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 04:21:46 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Cryptography and the Present Crisis
Message-ID: 


Cypherpunks are forgetting everything they are supposed to know.
Does anyone remember why this list was formed?  Does the "cypher" in
cypherpunk mean anything?  Has anyone considered whether there is a role
for crypto technology in the face of the current threats to civil rights?

These new laws are a perfect opportunity to promote the message of
cryptography for privacy.  Virtually all of the provisions which have
cypherpunks wailing in despair can be easily circumvented by the use of
crypto technology.  And every trial balloon floated to limit or ban crypto
has been shot down instantly, so full of holes that it will never fly.

Carnivore will be deployed to snoop on email?  Simple, use PGP/GPG.

Carnivore used for "trap and trace" address gathering?  Simple, use
remailers to disguise the patterns of who you are communicating with.

Legitimate criticism of U.S. government potentially interpreted
as supporting terrorism?  Simple, make your points anonymously or
pseudonymously and be free from the fear of prosecution.

Every one of these policies is an opportunity, not a threat.  To the
extent that these crackdowns engender concern about privacy violations
from a growing segment of the population, this is a chance for cypherpunks
to spread their knowledge and their technology.  You don't have to be
a paranoid any more to be afraid that the government is spying on you.
John Ashcroft himself boasts that Big Government will be watching.

Cypherpunks should be taking advantage of this opportunity to promote
their message of privacy through technology.  For the first time since
the group was formed, they can make a legitimate case that the threat
of government surveillance is increasing.  With the Bill of Rights
being tossed out the window and the AG openly admitting to bending the
rules to achieve his goals, a wide community is going to be receptive
to this message.

Of course there are presently substantial numbers who are caught up in
the collectivist urge and who might view attempts to protect privacy
as unpatriotic.  But this is a temporary phenomenon, already fading.
The flags which flew from every car and building in sight a few weeks ago
are disappearing.  Yet the Draconian new regulations will not go away.
Inevitably there will be a growing segment of the population which sees
the government as a fearsome threat.

It is time for cypherpunks to go back to their roots.  Let us put the
cypher back in cypherpunk.  There are other places where people can whine
about how evil congress is or fantasize about secession from the U.S.
Focus on crypto and what role it can play in the current crisis.  Believe
it or not, no one else is doing that.  No one in the world is speaking
out to say, here are tools which can circumvent the government's efforts
to take away our privacy.  If the cypherpunks don't do it, no one will.




From saeq at gmx.net  Mon Oct 29 05:57:28 2001
From: saeq at gmx.net (Luthor Blisset)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 05:57:28 -0800
Subject: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and  
  bounds )
In-Reply-To: <3BDC607F.10663.629AB4@localhost>
References: 
 <3BDBC8B6.22738.598FD9@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011029054300.02b76d20@pop.gmx.net>


At 07:46 PM 10/28/01 -0800, someone with the password to jamesd at echeque.com 
wrote:

>Some people need killing, some people don't.  The difference
>is not always clear, but when it comes to imperial soldiers
>and trade towers, the difference is clear enough.

         It's always refreshing to see someone with such a staunch moral 
compass. You would no doubt write excellent Captain American fan fiction.

>And the difference is also clear enough when it comes to
>those people who found themselves paying taxes to support an
>imperial war they knew nothing of.

         Perhaps people should pay better attention to the actions their 
government takes in their name - after all, you never know when somebody 
might take seriously all that talk about the actions of the government 
merely reflecting the will of the people, and in so doing hold your 
blissfully ignorant ass accountable.

-- Luthor //Remembering is copying and copying is THEFT




From hakkin at sarin.com  Mon Oct 29 06:48:35 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 06:48:35 -0800
Subject: US exporting abuses of 'detainees'
Message-ID: <3BDD6C43.B4FAC524@sarin.com>


            A short, sharp shock, they'll never do it agin'
             http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAA97MDETC.html

      Scotland Yard Gets More Time to Questions Terrorism Suspect
                          The Associated Press
                         Published: Oct 29, 2001
LONDON (AP) - Scotland Yard said Monday it has gained court permission
to continue questioning an Egyptian man suspected of involvement in
terrorism.

The 38-year-old man, identified in press reports as Yasser al-Sirri, was
arrested at his home in London last week.

Tuesday would mark the end of the seven-day period permitted by the
Terrorism Act for questioning a suspect without bringing charges, but
authorities were granted more time to question al-Sirri.

Al-Sirri runs a center that acts as a public relations contact for
Islamic fundamentalist groups, and recently circulated a statement by
Mohammed Atef, third-ranking leader of Osama bin Laden's al-Qaida
network.

Al-Sirri has declined to discuss how he obtained that statement.




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Mon Oct 29 05:19:42 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 07:19:42 -0600
Subject: Anti-Terror Tools Include High-Tech
Message-ID: <3BDD576E.FC18B9D6@ssz.com>


http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/ap/20011028/pl/attacks_tech_tools_1.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From freematt at coil.com  Mon Oct 29 04:30:11 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 07:30:11 -0500
Subject: Pravda Propaganda On The NRA, GOA and Militias
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011028230250.02aa8560@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com>
References: 
 <4.3.2.7.2.20011028230250.02aa8560@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com>
Message-ID: 


At 11:06 PM -1000 10/28/01, Reese wrote:
>I'm not so sure Bill White is a "red."
>
>  >> Copyright )1999 by "Pravda.RU". When reproducing our materials in whole
>  >> or in part, reference to Pravda.RU should be made.
>  >
>  >Gladly.
>
>But, the web page should say "copyright 2001" eh?
>
>Bill White, the author of the subject-line story, wrote something for
>Indymedia.org also - it sheds a bit of light on him, perhaps also on
>Tim's response to the article.

The copyright is something that they haven't changed on their 
website-Hasn't been updated.

I had one of my Russian friends check Pravda to see how Bill White's 
article was inserted (Since I can't read Russian fluently).  Here is 
what he said:

Freematt's Russian friend in Moscow wrote:
>It is, most probably, neither a posting in an open forum nor an 
>editorial. It is just an outside commentary/opinion article. 
>Pravda.ru has many writers doing this kind of articles for it. 
>Sometimes it publishes articles by Antiwar.com authors, seemingly 
>with their permission.

Regards,  Matt-



**************************************************************************
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From pud at fuckedcompany.com  Mon Oct 29 05:08:17 2001
From: pud at fuckedcompany.com (pud at fuckedcompany.com)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 08:08:17 -0500
Subject: You got points on FC: Webvan
Message-ID: <200110291639.LAA13384@deano.virtualscape.com>


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From noreply at cypherpunks.to  Sun Oct 28 23:15:05 2001
From: noreply at cypherpunks.to (Anonymous via the Cypherpunks Tonga Remailer)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 08:15:05 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Anthrax Illuminator
Message-ID: <64e4eaafd17598c2ee4d4ae9b7ed3552@cypherpunks.to>


http://www.anthraxexterminate.com/

"The Anthrax Exterminator is a portable hand-held and battery operated
unit similar in appearance to a flashlight which allows people to easily
zap Anthrax and sterilize surfaces such as your mail box, the mail
itself, desks, counters at home or in the workplace as well as thousands
of other surfaces that people come in contact with everyday."




From xeni at xeni.net  Mon Oct 29 08:35:42 2001
From: xeni at xeni.net (Xeni Jardin)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 08:35:42 -0800
Subject: FW: Fox News' source for story "FBI to centralize 'Net" speaks
  out
Message-ID: 


>From Dave Farber's IP list. --XJ

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ip-sub-1 at admin.listbox.com
[mailto:owner-ip-sub-1 at admin.listbox.com]On Behalf Of David Farber
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 8:30 AM
To: ip-sub-1 at majordomo.pobox.com
Subject: IP: Fox News goes overboard



>X-Server-Uuid: 47feacc6-2336-11d3-82c6-0008c7db26d1
>From: "Baker, Stewart" 
>To: "'farber at cis.upenn.edu'" 
>cc: "Albertazzie, Sally" 
>
>
>Dave:
>
>I can't remember whether you carried the Fox News story.  If you did, you
>might be interested in this.
>
>Stewart
>
>
>
>Fox News recently reported that the FBI has a plan to change the
>architecture of the Internet, centralizing it and providing "a technical
>backdoor to the networks of Internet service providers."  Like many others,
>I thought this was big news, and rather surprising.  Until I realized that
>the reporter only cited one source and that it was, well, me.  Fox News's
>claims go beyond the facts I provided to her, and beyond any that I know
>about.
>
>To be clear, I believe that the FBI is at work on an initiative to make
>Internet communications, indeed any packet data communications, more
>susceptible to intercept and more productive of non-content data about
>communications -- the sort of "pen register" data that was expressly
>approved for Internet communications in the recent antiterrorism bill.  This
>initiative will have architectural implications for packet data
>communications systems.  The FBI is likely to press providers of those
>services to centralize communications in nodes where interception will be
>more convenient, and it is likely to call on packet data services to build
>systems that provide more information about the communications of their
>subscribers.
>
>The vehicle for this initiative is CALEA, the Communications Assistance for
>Law Enforcement Act, a 1994 enactment that actually requires telecom
>carriers to redesign their networks to provide better wiretap capabilities.
>The act is supposed to exempt information services, but the vagueness of
>that provision has encouraged the FBI to expand its mandate into packet-data
>communications.  The Bureau is now preparing a general CALEA proposal for
>all packet-data systems.  While I have not seen it, the Bureau's past
>interventions into packet-data and other communications architecture have
>had two characteristics -- they have sought more centralization in order to
>simplify interception and they have asked providers to generate new data
>messages about their subscribers' activities -- messages that are of value
>only to law enforcement.
>
>There are real legal and policy questions that should be raised about this
>effort.  In my view, it goes beyond what Congress intended in 1994.  And the
>implications for Internet users and technologies deserve to be debated.  But
>making these points, as I did with Fox News, is not the same as saying that
>the FBI has a firm plan to centralize the Internet and build back doors into
>all ISP networks.  If Fox News wants to break that story, it will need a
>source other than me.
>
>Stewart Baker
>Steptoe & Johnson LLP
>1330 Connecticut Avenue, N.W.
>Washington, DC 20036


For archives see:
http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/




From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Mon Oct 29 07:41:01 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 09:41:01 -0600
Subject: [Fwd: [biofuel] VW presents new synthetic fuel strategy]
References: <3BD716D3.D822DC6D@cybershamanix.com>
  <3BD80563.CA321DF3@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
  <5.0.2.1.1.20011028201400.03370650@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <3BDD7886.4A91A9AF@cybershamanix.com>


Bill Stewart wrote:

> Making biodiesel from virgin oil scales well, since you can use

> non-food-grade oils, but there's still a substantial ecological effect
> of converting land from non-farming or food-farming to energy-farming.

    That's a common arguement used against biofuels which doesn't hold water. In
the first place, whether it's biodiesel or ethanol, you still have the vast
majority of the food left after you extract the oil or ethanol -- meal cake or
"brewer's grains" (a very high quality protein).
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_food.html
Right at the moment we have  farmers (US) being paid *not* to grow, and/or
growing at a loss. Corn is now by far the cheapest fuel for home heating.
http://www.gov.on.ca/OMAFRA/english/crops/facts/93-023.htm

>
> Waste vegetable oil has a much different scaling ability -
> until you get most fast-food french-fry leftovers used for fuel oil,
> it scales up really well, but after that it hits the wall.

    Right, but there's a tremendous amount available right now, and an awful lot
getting dumped in landfills and  illegally down drains.

   And if you start looking at gasification of waste biomass, there are amazing
amounts available at least in western countries.

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver at cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Mon Oct 29 07:07:44 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 10:07:44 -0500
Subject: obit
References: <3BD9AC36.ABA459F8@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <3BDD70C0.5EFD327E@acmenet.net>


mmotyka at lsil.com wrote:
> 
> Tim,
> 
> Re: the death of the fourth.
> 
> Yer list is too short.
> 
> R.I.P. : I, IV, V, VI, VIII

Don't forget IX and X. Or maybe they're not dead, just locked away and
ignored.

And XXVII (Congressional Pay), which was ignored immediately after
ratification.

-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato




From piolenc at mozcom.com  Sun Oct 28 18:47:38 2001
From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 10:47:38 +0800
Subject: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and   
 bounds )
References: 
Message-ID: <3BDCC34A.299396B1@mozcom.com>




Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 27 Oct 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote:
> 
> > If you cannot tell the difference between terrorists and
> > freedom fighters, you got shit for brains.
> >
> > The revolutionaries killed british soldiers in America.  They
> > did not go to england and kill english children.
> 
> Why is where they were killed important? If you kill people on your land
> it's ok, kill them on their land it's not?
> 
> Then the Allies were 'terrorist' when they entered German territory in
> WWII? I hardly think so.

Let's try to spell this out so even you can understand it, Jim. The
distinction is between killing combatants and killing noncombatants. Do
you get that? Location is incidental. Motive is irrelevant to the
definition. 

American revolutionaries killed British soldiers and their unfortunate
Hessian co-belligerents, not office workers in London (or Boston for
that matter). That's what makes them something other than terrorists.

Marc de Piolenc




From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Mon Oct 29 08:51:25 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 10:51:25 -0600
Subject: FBI moves to route internet  through central servers:Another  dagger 
 in the Heart of Freedom in America
References: <200110271806.f9RI6pu07496@mailserver1c.hushmail.com>
	  <20011027132440.A13359@informationanarchy.org> <87vggybq2a.fsf@puck.erasmus.jurri.net>
Message-ID: <3BDD8903.CE9BE4B6@cybershamanix.com>


Here's somemore:
http://www.mysteria.com/bbsinfo/


Samuli Suonpaa wrote:

> Mark Henderson  wrote:
> > On Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 11:06:51AM -0700, keyser-soze at hushmail.com
> > wrote:
> >> - re-awaken FidoNet
> > FidoNet, ugh. Would the software even work under most current
> > operating systems?
>
> Yes it would. At least some of the software, that is. Anyone
> interested in bbs-software with all Fidonet-components built in,
> capability to act as an SMTP-MTA, ftpd, httpd (I think), handles
> usenet also, can be used with http also...
>
> It does work at least on Linux/Intel, Linux/Sparc, Linux/Alpha,
> FreeBSD/Intel, Amiga, Windows NT, PC-DOS, OS/2...
>
> And no, it is not Open Source. More information at
> , if memory serves.
>
> Suonpdd...

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver at cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html





From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Mon Oct 29 08:53:20 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 10:53:20 -0600
Subject: FBI moves to route internet  through central servers:Another  dagger 
 in the Heart of Freedom in America
References: <200110271806.f9RI6pu07496@mailserver1c.hushmail.com>
	  <20011027132440.A13359@informationanarchy.org> <87vggybq2a.fsf@puck.erasmus.jurri.net>
Message-ID: <3BDD8976.D04132CF@cybershamanix.com>


And more yet:
http://sourceforge.net/softwaremap/trove_list.php?form_cat=21&discrim=175



Samuli Suonpaa wrote:

> Mark Henderson  wrote:
> > On Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 11:06:51AM -0700, keyser-soze at hushmail.com
> > wrote:
> >> - re-awaken FidoNet
> > FidoNet, ugh. Would the software even work under most current
> > operating systems?
>
> Yes it would. At least some of the software, that is. Anyone
> interested in bbs-software with all Fidonet-components built in,
> capability to act as an SMTP-MTA, ftpd, httpd (I think), handles
> usenet also, can be used with http also...
>
> It does work at least on Linux/Intel, Linux/Sparc, Linux/Alpha,
> FreeBSD/Intel, Amiga, Windows NT, PC-DOS, OS/2...
>
> And no, it is not Open Source. More information at
> , if memory serves.
>
> Suonpdd...

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver at cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html





From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Mon Oct 29 09:11:31 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 11:11:31 -0600
Subject: [Fwd: [biofuel] VW presents new synthetic fuel strategy]
References: <3BD716D3.D822DC6D@cybershamanix.com>
  <3BD80563.CA321DF3@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
  <5.0.2.1.1.20011028201400.03370650@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <3BDD8DB8.42EC551B@cybershamanix.com>


   Here's a site comparing corn to other fuels:
http://burncorn.com/CountrysideCostAnalysis.php

And realize that organic/sustainable agriculture is gaining ground rapidly, at
least in the US and Europe, and they *can* grow crops with equal or higher
yeilds than chemically dependant farmers. So the environmental "issue" is really
a straw horse.
   Besides which, there are a great many other non-traditional crops which yeild
far better than corn. Take cattails, for instance.
http://newcrop.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/duke_energy/Typha.html
Yields of 1000-4700 gallons per acre (depending on climate and how many crops
per year) are possible. Most farmers here in WI have portions of fields which
are unusable in wet years -- don't fight nature, go with the flow, stop draining
those areas and plant them to cattail instead. Simple stuff -- just a lack of
knowledge, really.


Bill Stewart wrote:

> At 02:54 PM 10/26/2001 -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote:
> >        Biodiesel is being sold in the US as we speak for anywhere from $.99
> >to $2.50 a gallon, depending upon whether it's made from waste or virgin
> >vegetable oil. Given the economies of scale working here, once they build
> >up a larger presence, those prices will drop. And, if I'm not mistaken,
> >much of Europe is already mandating that all diesel be sold with at least
> >20% biodiesel.
> >         You might also look at Brazil which fuels a large portion of it's
> >vehicles with ethanol already.
> >           VW's new fuel will be even cheaper.
>
> Making biodiesel from virgin oil scales well, since you can use
> non-food-grade oils, but there's still a substantial ecological effect
> of converting land from non-farming or food-farming to energy-farming.
> Waste vegetable oil has a much different scaling ability -
> until you get most fast-food french-fry leftovers used for fuel oil,
> it scales up really well, but after that it hits the wall.
>
> Ethanol has similar problems - you need to grow a lot of sugary or starchy
> crops,
> which not only displace food crops (having similar land needs),
> but at least in third-world countries tend to be grown by
> slash-and-burn agriculture, which rapidly destroys land, usually rainforest.
>
> On the other hand, for an area that doesn't have oil,
> the tradeoff between wasting farmland for energy crops and
> using it for export crops to buy energy from outside could go either way.
> Of course, when the "area" has government boundaries defining it,
> especially in the third world, there tends to be a huge amount of
> social policy and/or corruption distorting the market prices.
> But sometimes you can exploit other governments' corrupt social policies,
> e.g. grow cocaine or opium and buy oil or food or toys with the profits.

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver at cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html




From jei at cc.hut.fi  Mon Oct 29 01:43:53 2001
From: jei at cc.hut.fi (Jei)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 11:43:53 +0200 (EET)
Subject: Bush gives green light to CIA for assassination of named terrorists
 (fwd)
Message-ID: 


Assassination Politics adopted by the US president..

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 03:27:16 +0100
From: Mario Profaca 
Reply-To: spynews at yahoogroups.com
To: "[Spy News]" 
Subject: [Spy News] Bush gives green light to CIA for assassination of named
    terrorists

Bush gives green light to CIA for assassination of named terrorists
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,582507,00.html

'Covert killings to take in less important al-Qaida figures'

David Gow in New York
Monday October 29, 2001
The Guardian

President Bush has given the CIA an explicit go-ahead to carry out covert
missions to assassinate Osama bin Laden and his supporters around the world,
effectively lifting a 25-year ban on such activities.
The US defence secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, confirmed reports of such a move
yesterday by telling CNN that the US would be acting in self-defence in
carrying out such missions.

The Washington Post reported yesterday that Mr Bush has decided that
executive orders banning assassinations since a series of botched attempts
in the 1960s and 1970s allow him to single out a named terrorist or
terrorists for death by covert action.

Mr Rumsfeld said: "It is not possible to defend yourself against terrorists
at every single location in the world and at every single moment.

"The only way to deal with terrorists is to take the battle to them and find
them and root them out and that's self-defence. We're going after these
people and their organisations and capabilities and to stop them killing
Americans."

The US president, according to senior government officials quoted by the
Post, signed an order last month known as an intelligence "finding", which
broadens the list of potential targets beyond Bin Laden and his immediate
circle of some 15 operational planners - and beyond Afghanistan.

The CIA, pilloried in some quarters along with the FBI last month for its
fatal failure to detect the movements and plans of the al-Qaida terrorist
network, is said to be willing and able to "take the lives of terrorists
designated by the president".

Mr Bush has apparently circumvented the legal constraints on clandestine
killing missions imposed since the Church committee found in 1975 that plots
against five foreign leaders under presidents Eisenhower, Kennedy and Nixon
had been organised in terms "so ambiguous that it is difficult to be certain
at what levels assassination activity was known and authorised".

The new presidential order, drawing on one signed by President Clinton
against al-Qaida three years ago, apparently overcomes such problems by
making plain that responsibility and accountability rest with the president
and his senior colleagues.

"I would want the president's guidance to be as clear as it could be,
including the names of individuals. You have got to have the political
levels behind you so the intelligence officers are not left hanging," the
recently retired CIA deputy director, John Gannon, told the Post.

But history suggests that covert assassinations remain fraught with danger
and carry a high risk of failure.

Jeffrey Richelson, an intelligence historian and author of a new book on the
CIA, said of pre-1975 efforts: "They never succeeded in killing anyone. They
were the gang that couldn't shoot straight."

Agents carried out numerous inept missions to kill Fidel Castro, using among
other botched devices bacteria in his favourite type of cigar, an exploding
seashell, and a poisoned wet suit. Other botched missions were undertaken in
central America, the Congo and Iraq, though Mr Richelson has said the CIA
did significantly aid the assassins of Che Guevara, and, indirectly, the
overthrow of Chile's Salvador Allende in 1973.

Yesterday's report suggested that President Bush's order could extend well
beyond the al-Qaida network concentrated around Bin Laden and the FBI's 22
"most-wanted" terrorists, with the CIA debating how many of the 35 or more
countries identified as places where the terrorist network is active could
figure on the list.

Andrew Card, White House chief of staff, said yesterday on NBC's Meet the
Press: "It could take years but we are going to do everything we can to rout
the terrorists in Afghanistan and then get them all around the world."

Financiers of the al-Qaida - "the Gucci guys, the guys who write the
cheques", according to one unnamed CIA official - could also be targets but
the report said it was unclear whether Mr Bush had "signed orders that would
amount to individual death warrants".

---
Messages to Mario Profaca  may be published at
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From 1.10198689.-13 at multexinvestornetwork.com  Mon Oct 29 09:03:23 2001
From: 1.10198689.-13 at multexinvestornetwork.com (Multex Investor)
Date: 29 Oct 2001 12:03:23 -0500
Subject: October 13, 2001 - Self-Help Guide: Coping with Market Volatility
Message-ID: <04a2a2303171da1MINLIST1@multexinvestornetwork.com>


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From xeni at xeni.net  Mon Oct 29 12:10:13 2001
From: xeni at xeni.net (Xeni Jardin)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 12:10:13 -0800
Subject: reuters: "U.S. Military Unveils Smart ID Card."
Message-ID: 


Monday October 29 3:01 PM ET
U.S. Military Unveils Smart ID Card
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011029/tc/tech_military_usa_dc_1.html
By Andrea Shalal-Esa

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Top U.S. military officials on Monday unveiled a new
generation of ``smart'' identity cards, but were still weighing whether to add
medical data and other information to the chip-based ID cards.

The Defense Department said it expected to issue the chip-based ``common access
cards'' to 4.3 million military personnel -- including active military, selected
reserves, civilian employees and some contractors -- within the next 15 months.

Officials said the cards, which include a photograph, bar code, magnetic strip
and other identifying text, would help tighten security on access at 900 U.S.
military sites worldwide, including the Pentagon (news - web sites), and to
computer networks, including access to encrypted e-mail and online transactions.

``The big benefits are in the area of security,'' said Dr. David Chu,
undersecretary of defense for personnel and readiness, told Reuters. ``You can
know who was in a facility at a given time.''

He said that issue had taken on new importance after the Sept. 11 hijacking
attacks and the discovery of anthrax-laced letters, which has prompted the
government to put thousands of postal workers and others exposed to the
potentially deadly bacteria on antibiotics.

``This technology is an important tool to improving the way the Defense
Department does business,'' he said.

Once the cards are widely distributed, the military could also use them to help
create manifests for troop deployments, greatly speeding a process that can last
hours now, officials said.

Holders could also use the cards to book and file travel plans and expenses,
officials said.

MEDICAL DATA COULD BE ADDED LATER

The military later could add encrypted medical information to the cards, or
simply use them to access secure computer files with that information, Chu said.

But, he said there would be benefits and risks to such a move, and the Pentagon
had not yet approved it.

Mary Dixon, director of the Defense Department's access card office, said
officials were mindful of service members' privacy concerns.

Assistant Secretary of Defense John Stenbit said other countries such as South
Africa already used such cards to control access to voting booths and welfare
benefits.

Officials at the Pentagon and EDS Corp. (NYSE:EDS - news), the main contractor
for the smart cards, said efforts were underway to boost the capacity of the
cards within a year.

Efforts were also underway to add an individual's fingerprint, which could be
ready for implementation within two years, said Ken Scheflen, director of the
Defense Manpower Data Center.

Scheflen said the Pentagon's experience with the new technology could prove
useful in any move to create national identification cards for the United
States, but no such discussions were underway.

While the military had no trouble authenticating its users, it could prove more
difficult to do so if each American was issued a national ID -- potentially over
200 million people, Scheflen said.




From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Mon Oct 29 12:29:03 2001
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 12:29:03 -0800
Subject: Singing The War Prayer
References: <0e9feebcd8b43371493599cbd77782cf@dizum.com>         
  <200110252131.f9PLV3c27667@ns2.memec.com>
Message-ID: 


>but in all candor, dont ya think
>that if a guy is there who SHOULDNT
>be there, he wouldnt be there
>after a decent timeframe of investigation?
>
>notwithstanding other manners of recent 
>injustices of justice, i.e., Mitnick et al,
>in this day and age, with '1000' under the
>microscope, doncha think odds are that 
>some of these guys woulda made it out 
>without incident? 
>holy shit what are the chances that the
>evidence shows they are complicit?!
>down to the last one of them!


Tell that to 40,000 Japanese-Americans, Fed.



>Heres the message we should try to send
>with our words and our actions:
>
>Dont fuck up and try to kill Americans.
>Because we will fuck you in your ass with 
>a greased lightning tomahawk missile
>that will gut you and your camel, and 
>the 5 wives you both rode in on... along
>with those 15 little terrorists a year you
>keep pumping out, in your own words. 
>By the way, forget about sex for fun with those
>broads... apparently there is a mandate 
>to 'copulate to populate, not just to fornicate'.
>SNAP, after lookin at some of 'dat shit, I 
>would rather masturbate. No wonder they wear
>veils, dey breath must stank to High Heaven.


If what I saw in the papers this morning is called a surgical strike, 
who do I sue for malpractice?


--

The War Prayer
by Mark Twain

It was a time of great and exalting excitement. The country was up in arms, the 
war was on, in every breast burned the holy fire of patriotism; the drums were 
beating, the bands playing, the toy pistols popping, the bunched firecrackers 
hissing and spluttering; on every hand and far down the receding and fading 
spread of roofs and balconies a fluttering wilderness of flags flashed in the 
sun; daily the young volunteers marched down the wide avenue gay and fine in 
their new uniforms, the proud fathers and mothers and sisters and sweethearts 
cheering them with voices choked with happy emotion as they swung by; nightly 
the packed mass meetings listened, panting, to patriot oratory which stirred the 
deepest deeps of their hearts, and which they interrupted at briefest intervals 
with cyclones of applause, the tears running down their cheeks the while; in the 
churches the pastors preached devotion to flag and country, and invoked the God 
of Battles beseeching His aid in our good cause in outpourings of fervid 
eloquence which moved every listener. It was indeed a glad and gracious time, 
and the half dozen rash spirits that ventured to disapprove of the war and cast 
a doubt upon its righteousness straightway got such a stern and angry warning 
that for their personal safety's sake they quickly shrank out of sight and 
offended no more in that way. 

Sunday morning came -- next day the battalions would leave for the front; the 
church was filled; the volunteers were there, their young faces alight with 
martial dreams -- visions of the stern advance, the gathering momentum, the 
rushing charge, the flashing sabers, the flight of the foe, the tumult, the 
enveloping smoke, the fierce pursuit, the surrender! Then home from the war, 
bronzed heroes, welcomed, adored, submerged in golden seas of glory! With the 
volunteers sat their dear ones, proud, happy, and envied by the neighbors and 
friends who had no sons and brothers to send forth to the field of honor, there 
to win for the flag, or, failing, die the noblest of noble deaths. The service 
proceeded; a war chapter from the Old Testament was read; the first prayer was 
said; it was followed by an organ burst that shook the building, and with one 
impulse the house rose, with glowing eyes and beating hearts, and poured out 
that tremendous invocation 

    *God the all-terrible! Thou who ordainest! Thunder thy clarion and lightning 
    thy sword!* 

Then came the "long" prayer. None could remember the like of it for passionate 
pleading and moving and beautiful language. The burden of its supplication was, 
that an ever-merciful and benignant Father of us all would watch over our noble 
young soldiers, and aid, comfort, and encourage them in their patriotic work; 
bless them, shield them in the day of battle and the hour of peril, bear them in 
His mighty hand, make them strong and confident, invincible in the bloody onset; 
help them to crush the foe, grant to them and to their flag and country 
imperishable honor and glory -- 

An aged stranger entered and moved with slow and noiseless step up the main 
aisle, his eyes fixed upon the minister, his long body clothed in a robe that 
reached to his feet, his head bare, his white hair descending in a frothy 
cataract to his shoulders, his seamy face unnaturally pale, pale even to 
ghastliness. With all eyes following him and wondering, he made his silent way; 
without pausing, he ascended to the preacher's side and stood there waiting. 
With shut lids the preacher, unconscious of his presence, continued with his 
moving prayer, and at last finished it with the words, uttered in fervent 
appeal, "Bless our arms, grant us the victory, O Lord our God, Father and 
Protector of our land and flag!" 

The stranger touched his arm, motioned him to step aside -- which the startled 
minister did -- and took his place. During some moments he surveyed the 
spellbound audience with solemn eyes, in which burned an uncanny light; then in 
a deep voice he said: 

"I come from the Throne -- bearing a message from Almighty God!" The words smote 
the house with a shock; if the stranger perceived it he gave no attention. "He 
has heard the prayer of His servant your shepherd, and will grant it if such 
shall be your desire after I, His messenger, shall have explained to you its 
import -- that is to say, its full import. For it is like unto many of the 
prayers of men, in that it asks for more than he who utters it is aware of -- 
except he pause and think. 

"God's servant and yours has prayed his prayer. Has he paused and taken thought? 
Is it one prayer? No, it is two -- one uttered, the other not. Both have reached 
the ear of Him Who heareth all supplications, the spoken and the unspoken. 
Ponder this -- keep it in mind. If you would beseech a blessing upon yourself, 
beware! lest without intent you invoke a curse upon a neighbor at the same time. 
If you pray for the blessing of rain upon your crop which needs it, by that act 
you are possibly praying for a curse upon some neighbor's crop which may not 
need rain and can be injured by it. 

"You have heard your servant's prayer -- the uttered part of it. I am 
commissioned of God to put into words the other part of it -- that part which 
the pastor -- and also you in your hearts -- fervently prayed silently. And 
ignorantly and unthinkingly? God grant that it was so! You heard these words: 
'Grant us the victory, O Lord our God!' That is sufficient. the *whole* of the 
uttered prayer is compact into those pregnant words. Elaborations were not 
necessary. When you have prayed for victory you have prayed for many unmentioned 
results which follow victory--*must* follow it, cannot help but follow it. Upon 
the listening spirit of God fell also the unspoken part of the prayer. He 
commandeth me to put it into words. Listen! 

"O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle 
-- be Thou near them! With them -- in spirit -- we also go forth from the sweet 
peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to tear 
their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling 
fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder 
of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay 
waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts 
of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out 
roofless with little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated 
land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the 
icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the 
refuge of the grave and denied it -- for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast 
their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy 
their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the 
blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the 
Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are 
sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen. 

(*After a pause.*) "Ye have prayed it; if ye still desire it, speak! The 
messenger of the Most High waits!" 

It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense 
in what he said. 




From jei at alpha.hut.fi  Mon Oct 29 02:31:26 2001
From: jei at alpha.hut.fi (Jei)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 12:31:26 +0200 (EET)
Subject: MPAA and RIAA Lobby the President for Targetted Assassinations of
 Cyber Terrorists and DMCA Violators
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



> On Sun, 28 Oct 2001, Jon O . wrote:
> 
> > 
> > 
> > http://aibohack.com/letter2.htm
> > 
> > It has become an Internet cliche to post letters from big companies sent to individuals threatening them with the DCMA. 
> 
> Well, we won't have to put up with them letters any more! ;-)
> 
> Now that the DMCA violations can be seen as terrorism and that Bush has
> authorized extrajudicial assassinations of suspected terrorists, soon we
> can just expect to get a bullet in the head. Us non-Americans that is. :-)
> 
> Bush gives green light to CIA for assassination of named terrorists
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,582507,00.html
> 
> Targets specified in 35 countries.
> 
> Are *you* one of them? 
> 
> And just where did that mp3 file come from, eh?? Can you PROVE it???
> 
> Don't believe me? Just think how big lobbying power the MPAA and RIAA
> have in the US, and that Bush has never hesistated to lick the butt of
> big business.
> 





From naser at newyork.com  Mon Oct 29 04:35:36 2001
From: naser at newyork.com (Naser)
Date: 29 Oct 2001 12:35:36 -0000
Subject: Just a simple q...
Message-ID: <2505b101c16076$3562f650$4801020a@corp.load.com>

 
Hi,
 
Are U professional hacker?

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From brad at templetons.com  Mon Oct 29 12:49:24 2001
From: brad at templetons.com (Brad Templeton)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 12:49:24 -0800
Subject: asdfadsf
Message-ID: <20011029124924.L29524@main.templetons.com>


This is Brad Templeton from the EFF.  This Wednesday I'm moderating a
panel at Jeff Pulver's semi-annual conference on Presence and Instant
Messaging.   It's a smallish (couple of hundred) conference where you'll
see most of the commercial players in instant messaging, with the very
notable exception of AOL.

However, having attended this conference I have found that most of the
people there pay little attention to issues of security and privacy in
the IM world.  Sometimes for real reasons (most IM is forced by NAT and
firewalls to be routed through central servers) but often times simply
because they haven't bothered.

The panel I am moderating is on these topics of Presence and Instant
Messaging, and due to various circumstances, right now I have only 2
other speakers on it, who will speak about the privacy and security work
being done by two standards bodies, the PAM formum, and the IETF SIP working
group.  I have my own talk on the design and political issues, but I can
move a lot of that into my plenary talk later in the day where I want to
get those issues out.

In particular I am interested in technologically interesting projects or
research to allow privacy, encryption and anonymity in instant messaging,
and also in presence data and location-aware devices.  (Part of the
conference is also on location aware services, E911 manadated location-aware
phones etc.)

So I apologize for not asking until today, but if you have done any work
in these areas you would like to talk about briefly, I could have a slot
for you, and get you free attendance at this normally $2,000 conference.
Last time Lenny Foner gave a great talk on his work.

The conference info is at http://www.pulver.com/pim/ and my session is
This Wedesday, Oct 31, at 9:45am.  It is at the Marriott in Santa Clara.

Sorry as well for posting without regularly reading cypherpunks, but I
need to keep my email load down.




From anonymous at anonymizer.com  Mon Oct 29 12:53:00 2001
From: anonymous at anonymizer.com (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 12:53 -0800
Subject: FBI wants to have Internet Off-switch
Message-ID: <200110292053.MAA03038@sirius.infonex.com>


Yes, thanks.  I completely neglected to enumerate the possibility
that the reporter got it all wrong, the most probable explanation 
for the conundri of Baker's purported utterings.

Reporters are, after all, lamers.   :)

>You may want to look at Baker's denial I sent to Politech today.
>
>-Declan
>
>On Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 10:51:00AM -0700, Anonymous wrote:
>> Reading the article ....




From hakkin at sarin.com  Mon Oct 29 13:28:49 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 13:28:49 -0800
Subject: acting in self-defence; this is your CIA on AP
Message-ID: <3BDDCA11.89F91AB7@sarin.com>


> The US defence secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, confirmed reports of such a
> move yesterday by telling CNN that the US would be acting in
self-defence in
> carrying out such missions.

"acting in self-defence" sounds better in Hebrew...




From declan at well.com  Mon Oct 29 10:52:38 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 13:52:38 -0500
Subject: FBI wants to have Internet Off-switch
In-Reply-To: <200110271751.KAA25407@sirius.infonex.com>; from
  anonymous@anonymizer.com on Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 10:51:00AM -0700
References: <200110271751.KAA25407@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <20011029135238.A16977@cluebot.com>


You may want to look at Baker's denial I sent to Politech today.

-Declan

On Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 10:51:00AM -0700, Anonymous wrote:
> Reading the article it looks more like the kind of news that's playing a lot these days: the story of 'something is not yet being done', nobody is claiming to be doing it, but it could be done and the majority of people would support it.  A kind of "no news is news" story.
> 
> At the same time, if Baker, attorney with Steptoe (god what a perfect name!), were aware of this and leaked it to the press based on work he is doing with the FBI, wouldn't he be subject to imprisonment or at least civil and professional penalties for violation of attorney-client confidentiality?  Unless the FBI wants it leaked.  And why?  To gauge reaction perhaps.  To tell the frogs the heat's going to be turned up a notch?
> 
> But it also could be Baker trying to keep warm in the sunshine of publicity by having something to say.  At the same time spouting this information would be a most egregious violation of at least SOMEthing.
> 
> "Curiouser and curiouser," said Alice!




From suonpaa at iki.fi  Mon Oct 29 04:15:09 2001
From: suonpaa at iki.fi (Samuli Suonpaa)
Date: 29 Oct 2001 14:15:09 +0200
Subject: FBI moves to route internet  through central servers: Another  dagger in the Heart of Freedom in America
In-Reply-To: <20011027132440.A13359@informationanarchy.org>
References: <200110271806.f9RI6pu07496@mailserver1c.hushmail.com>
	<20011027132440.A13359@informationanarchy.org>
Message-ID: <87vggybq2a.fsf@puck.erasmus.jurri.net>


Mark Henderson  wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 11:06:51AM -0700, keyser-soze at hushmail.com
> wrote:
>> - re-awaken FidoNet
> FidoNet, ugh. Would the software even work under most current 
> operating systems?

Yes it would. At least some of the software, that is. Anyone
interested in bbs-software with all Fidonet-components built in,
capability to act as an SMTP-MTA, ftpd, httpd (I think), handles
usenet also, can be used with http also...

It does work at least on Linux/Intel, Linux/Sparc, Linux/Alpha,
FreeBSD/Intel, Amiga, Windows NT, PC-DOS, OS/2...

And no, it is not Open Source. More information at
, if memory serves.

Suonpää...




From sstein at computing.dundee.ac.uk  Mon Oct 29 07:38:51 2001
From: sstein at computing.dundee.ac.uk (sstein)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 15:38:51 -0000
Subject: Just a simple q...
Message-ID: <31C6D68FA597D411B04D00E02965883B649D44@mailhost>

We need to get this list moderated & spam free so idiotic posts like this
dont get through !!!!!

-----Original Message-----
From: Naser [mailto:naser at newyork.com] 
Sent: 29 October 2001 12:36
To: cypherpunks
Subject: Just a simple q...


 
Hi,
 
Are U professional hacker?



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From keyser-soze at hushmail.com  Mon Oct 29 15:50:11 2001
From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 15:50:11 -0800
Subject: Ashcroft prepares for martial law
Message-ID: <200110292350.f9TNoBa12729@mailserver1.hushmail.com>


Unlike America's Most Wanted the new dire but vague warnings are unlikely to cause citizens to uncover a massive new plot, I doubt they would have uncovered the 911 even if predictions of impending trouble have been announced a few days prior.  Since Congress gave him virtually everything he asked for the next step is martial law, though how that might help uncover any new plots is beyond me.




From elyn at consect.com  Mon Oct 29 13:00:42 2001
From: elyn at consect.com (Elyn Wollensky)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 16:00:42 -0500
Subject: Stew Baker: Fox News goes overboard
Message-ID: <030401c160bc$c5fb8d80$6b8d1d18@nyc.rr.com>


For those who haven't seen the Baker rebuttal, that Declan mentioned, here
it is-
elyn

--------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Fox News recently reported that the FBI has a plan to change the
>architecture of the Internet, centralizing it and providing "a technical
>backdoor to the networks of Internet service providers."  Like many others,
>I thought this was big news, and rather surprising.  Until I realized that
>the reporter only cited one source and that it was, well, me.  Fox News's
>claims go beyond the facts I provided to her, and beyond any that I know
>about.
>
>To be clear, I believe that the FBI is at work on an initiative to make
>Internet communications, indeed any packet data communications, more
>susceptible to intercept and more productive of non-content data about
>communications -- the sort of "pen register" data that was expressly
>approved for Internet communications in the recent antiterrorism bill.
This
>initiative will have architectural implications for packet data
>communications systems.  The FBI is likely to press providers of those
>services to centralize communications in nodes where interception will be
>more convenient, and it is likely to call on packet data services to build
>systems that provide more information about the communications of their
>subscribers.
>
>The vehicle for this initiative is CALEA, the Communications Assistance for
>Law Enforcement Act, a 1994 enactment that actually requires telecom
>carriers to redesign their networks to provide better wiretap capabilities.
>The act is supposed to exempt information services, but the vagueness of
>that provision has encouraged the FBI to expand its mandate into
packet-data
>communications.  The Bureau is now preparing a general CALEA proposal for
>all packet-data systems.  While I have not seen it, the Bureau's past
>interventions into packet-data and other communications architecture have
>had two characteristics -- they have sought more centralization in order to
>simplify interception and they have asked providers to generate new data
>messages about their subscribers' activities -- messages that are of value
>only to law enforcement.
>
>There are real legal and policy questions that should be raised about this
>effort.  In my view, it goes beyond what Congress intended in 1994.  And
the
>implications for Internet users and technologies deserve to be debated.
But
>making these points, as I did with Fox News, is not the same as saying that
>the FBI has a firm plan to centralize the Internet and build back doors
into
>all ISP networks.  If Fox News wants to break that story, it will need a
>source other than me.
>
>Stewart Baker
>Steptoe & Johnson LLP
>1330 Connecticut Avenue, N.W.
>Washington, DC 20036





From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Oct 29 16:03:22 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 16:03:22 -0800
Subject: Secret Nuke Takeout Team
Message-ID: <200110292109.QAA24746@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>


Seymour Hersh, "The Risks of Pakistan's Nuclear Arsenal,"
The New Yorker, October 29, 2001:

  http://cryptome.org/paki-nukes.htm

"In recent weeks an ilite Pentagon undercover unit -- trained to 
slip into foreign countries and find suspected nuclear weapons, 
and disarm them if necessary -- has explored plans for an 
operation inside Pakistan. In 1998, Pakistan successfully tested 
a nuclear device, heralded as the Islamic world's first atomic bomb. 
According to United States government estimates, Pakistan now 
has at least twenty-four warheads, which can be delivered by 
intermediate-range missiles and a fleet of F-16 aircraft.

Some of the government's most experienced South Asia experts 
have doubts about Musharraf's ability to maintain control over the 
military and its nuclear arsenal in the event of a coup; there are 
also fears that a dissident group of fundamentalist officers might 
try to seize a warhead. The Army and the influential Inter-Services 
Intelligence, or I.S.I., have long-standing religious and personal 
ties to many of the leaders of the Taliban, dating back to 
Afghanistan's war against the Soviet Union in the nineteen-eighties, 
when Pakistan was the main conduit for American support.

The crisis may bring into play the ilite unit, operating under 
Pentagon control with C.I.A. assistance, whose mission it is to 
destroy nuclear facilities, past and present government officials 
told me. 'They're good,' one American said. 'If they screw up, 
they die. They've had good success in proving the negative' -- 
that is, in determining that suspected facilities were not 
nuclear-related.

The American team is apparently getting help from Israel's 
most successful special-operations unit, the storied Sayeret 
Matkal, also known as Unit 262, a deep-penetration unit that 
has been involved in assassinations, the theft of foreign 
signals-intelligence materials, and the theft and destruction 
of foreign nuclear weaponry. Members of the Israeli unit 
arrived in the United States a few days after September 11th, 
an informed source said, and as of last week were training 
with American special-forces units at undisclosed locations."




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Mon Oct 29 17:05:07 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 17:05:07 -0800
Subject: Pravda Propaganda On The NRA, GOA and Militias
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011029091117.03744d40@idiom.com>


>>
>>
>>Oct, 18 2001
>>20:11 2001-10-18
>>
>>BILL WHITE: GUN GROUPS SEE STEADY BLEED INTO MILITIAS; DOMESTIC UNREST 
>>STILL GROWING IN UNITED STATES
>>There are three issues that motivate America's militia movement - support 
>>of gun rights, opposition to taxation, and opposition to the United 
>>Nations and the loss of America's sovereignty to global corporate rule - 
>>a system the militias see as socialism and anti-globalists label 
>>capitalism, and which is really a blend of the worst elements of the two.
>
>Amazing that a Russian publication (is it really Russian, or just 
>reprinted by them?) gets this so right. Nearly all American journalists 
>just babble about skinheads and survivalists when they talk about the 
>militia movement.

Back when LaRouche was being a leftist, it was obvious that
the Evil Rockefeller {Commie/Capitalist} Jewish Bankers' Conspiracy
must be running the world, because everybody from wacko lefties
to rightwingers like the Birchers and the more extreme rightwing wackos 
said so.


>>The Real Activists
>>
>>The Southern Poverty Law Center, a rather shady group of lawyers who make 
>>profit by suing organizations they label as "hateful",
>
>Wow. It takes a Russian to call a spade a spade.
>The SPLC is the most anti-liberty organization in the U.S.
>Words fail me in describing them.

The SPLC may have its problems, but it looks a lot like
Pravda's problem with them is that they're Jews.

>Agreed. Too bad Bush is pushing the New World Order agenda,
>though I suppose it was thrust upon him by events.
>Al Gore certainly would have been even more internationalist.

Bush Sr. was the guy who got us into the whole New World Order biz;
to see his son, elected because of his father's clout (ok, and the
lack of any credible Republican opposition) and surrounded by his
father's cronies, do anything else would have been highly surprising.

>>Copyright )1999 by "Pravda.RU".
>>When reproducing our materials in whole or in part, reference to 
>>Pravda.RU should be made.

They may be Commies, but they want their own intellectual property enforced :-)




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Mon Oct 29 17:20:53 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 17:20:53 -0800
Subject: Entertainingly dangerous spam - Access and use your PC from
  anywhere
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011029171600.037870d0@idiom.com>


I received the following entertaining spam message.
Their product
	"allows you to securely access and use your office computer
	from any Web browser anytime, anywhere."
I wonder who else it allows to access from any web browser, anywhere :-)


=========== BEGIN SPAM HERE ===============
Return-Path: 
OWNER-NOLIST-1643_MediaTrec1_GoToMyPC*BILL*-STEWART**POBOX*-COM at MLM3.JOBSONLINE.COM
Delivered-To: bill.stewart at pobox.com
Received: from mlm4.jobsonline.com (mlm4.jobsonline.com [216.35.218.199])
	by wormwood.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D00B72539
	for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 12:31:34 -0500 (EST)
Received: from mlm3 (mlm3.jobsonline.com) by mlm4.jobsonline.com (LSMTP for 
Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <12.00020FC2 at mlm4.jobsonline.com>; Mon, 29 
Oct 2001 12:12:02 -0500
Message-ID: <1643-0d2e2aed at mlm3.jobsonline.com>
Date:     Mon, 29 Oct 2001 11:18:01 -0500
From: Go to my PC 
Subject: Access and use your PC from anywhere
To: BILL.STEWART at POBOX.COM
 >> MIME-Version: 1.0
 >> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="06986E0E1E196312E032AFBC"
X-UIDL: 976db5a1925596ff0fe346ba08cac846

You are receiving this recurring mailing because you registered to receive 
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From anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org  Mon Oct 29 15:34:01 2001
From: anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org (Incognito Innominatus)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 17:34:01 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Singing The War Prayer
Message-ID: 


Mr. Melon, 

40,000 Japanese in internment camps
is a different situation entirely compared to 
the Middle Eastern contingency of terror we have 
today. 

Are there 40,000 'interned' at this time?
No.

Is our technical intelligence better this time?
I would say so, given the Evolution of Related Things.
Thats why 40,000 arent sitting in holding pens now. 
That would be Bad. Would you prefer
that NONE be held? Dont act as if everyone is 
innocent, dude. Theres a good reason for
those people to be in there, and its not 'just because'.
Theres a BIG difference between 1000 and 40,000! 
I could think of a few thousand people I wouldnt mind
seeing in jail... but it cant be done because it wouldnt
happen just to appease my Political Incorrectness....
so I have a Feel Good Notion that the right thing is 
being done here, and not at the whim of any racial 
stereotype or bias.

You probably wouldnt mind if NONE were held, but then 
again you probably havent been in the trenches long, 
if at all. But this isnt a place to hold up our 
accomplishments, achievements and accolades.

Right now, I would be more concerned about roving 
wiretaps and warrantless searches and the like.
Oh, yes and theres that internet thing.

Hey, f the foreigners... we got a problem with our own
privacy here. Are we one step closer as natives to
being in the same boat with them and this New Scrutiny?
I hope not.
 
Screw the 'Fed' insult, thats lame.
I think a 'Fed' would tow a More Accurate party line than 
was towed, so dont get ugly cuz professional uglies are
not allowed, further disqualifying yourself.

So, now what... 
I wouldnt mind a few 'black bag' jobs to make it through 
to summer (i almost used another term, but thought better,
this being PT, cripes). I have nothing to do over the
Christmas Holidays, and bandwidth to spare. Oh I am not
proficient with anything other than English, TCP/IP
or Straight Out Killing Bitches With My Superior Dim Mak
Technique. Shit, a regular Triple Threat! 
(ok, i didnt know whether to laugh or groan either, right there).

That doesnt make a guy a fed.
It perhaps makes a guy an opportunist.
Or hows this: someone who is tired of being shat on.
Do you believe the policies of USA put us in this 
position? 
I believe EVERYBODYS policies put us here. Not a one 
way street, buddy.
Now we gotta deal with it, cuz its HERE upon us.
And kneejerk reactions from the left and right make
us just crazy, dont they? YES, I am tired of seeing
dead people, THEY are tired of seeing dead people, 
and since they arent gonna stop, and since they are
gonna use the creepy way of killing US civvies....
then F them. 
F them for making us all pay with our own paranoia.
Move forward not backward, dwelling on past policies
aint gonna help now. Focus on homeland safety and privacy
and Our Boys Over There.
Shit, most of us remain untouched by this business...
but we are all more paranoid now because of this escalation.
And every step USG takes is another step less breathing 
room for someone somewhere out there. I happen to like
my breathing room, and theres only so much to go around.

By the way, sign me up for your Nuke Take Out Team.
I am completely expendable, I have no family members
that depend on me, and I am technically proficient
enough to do most electrical work, and highly trained 
in Martial Arts and personal hygiene, and I love This Country.


gatton




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Oct 29 15:52:02 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 17:52:02 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Singing The War Prayer
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 29 Oct 2001, Incognito Innominatus wrote:

> Mr. Melon, 
> 
> 40,000 Japanese in internment camps
> is a different situation entirely compared to 
> the Middle Eastern contingency of terror we have 
> today. 
> 
> Are there 40,000 'interned' at this time?
> No.

I suggest you look at the number of Palestinians involved. More than 40k
by a tad.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Oct 29 15:53:35 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 17:53:35 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Pravda Propaganda On The NRA, GOA and Militias
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, alphabeta121 wrote:

> This article touches on a note that irritates me, a pro-Capitalist, pro-gun
> American.  The fact that many militias, 'right winger's' and so on are
> claiming that
> "global corporations, the wealthy, and ruling-class billionaires as being
> behind the plot to take away America's Second Amendment rights. "
> I'll agree that global corperations (such as lowe's) and "ruling-class
> billionaires" (such as George Soros) are 'behind the plot to take away 2nd
> amendment rights.  But generalizing that to "the wealthy" is a big mistake.

No it isn't. Poor people don't make the sorts of contributions (and
concommitent expectations) into the coffers of the political.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Mon Oct 29 18:16:48 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 18:16:48 -0800
Subject: Speaker Wanted - This Wednesday, Pulver Conference - Presence &
  Instant Messaging
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011029181528.0379ab20@idiom.com>


(Brad spaced on the title....  brad at templetons.com )
=====
This is Brad Templeton from the EFF.  This Wednesday I'm moderating a
panel at Jeff Pulver's semi-annual conference on Presence and Instant
Messaging.   It's a smallish (couple of hundred) conference where you'll
see most of the commercial players in instant messaging, with the very
notable exception of AOL.

However, having attended this conference I have found that most of the
people there pay little attention to issues of security and privacy in
the IM world.  Sometimes for real reasons (most IM is forced by NAT and
firewalls to be routed through central servers) but often times simply
because they haven't bothered.

The panel I am moderating is on these topics of Presence and Instant
Messaging, and due to various circumstances, right now I have only 2
other speakers on it, who will speak about the privacy and security work
being done by two standards bodies, the PAM formum, and the IETF SIP working
group.  I have my own talk on the design and political issues, but I can
move a lot of that into my plenary talk later in the day where I want to
get those issues out.

In particular I am interested in technologically interesting projects or
research to allow privacy, encryption and anonymity in instant messaging,
and also in presence data and location-aware devices.  (Part of the
conference is also on location aware services, E911 manadated location-aware
phones etc.)

So I apologize for not asking until today, but if you have done any work
in these areas you would like to talk about briefly, I could have a slot
for you, and get you free attendance at this normally $2,000 conference.
Last time Lenny Foner gave a great talk on his work.

The conference info is at http://www.pulver.com/pim/ and my session is
This Wedesday, Oct 31, at 9:45am.  It is at the Marriott in Santa Clara.

Sorry as well for posting without regularly reading cypherpunks, but I
need to keep my email load down.




From anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org  Mon Oct 29 16:34:05 2001
From: anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org (Incognito Innominatus)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 18:34:05 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Singing The War Prayer
Message-ID: <2d9a332f3340649b1044cc69e9bbaf76@mixmaster.nullify.org>


choad,
Are the palestinians interned here in the US?
No.


So now hopefully we can move on to relevant subject 
matter now... after the attempted railroading by 
someone who got fired from a blow-job.

Les keep it real.


gatton




From verba at rol.it  Mon Oct 29 09:43:49 2001
From: verba at rol.it (verba at rol.it)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 18:43:49 +0100
Subject: Verba Volant del 29-10-01
Message-ID: <1004381030@web2bk.logos.it>


Verba Volant del 29-10-01,
Every day a new quotation translated into many languages. 

Logos Translations - www.logostranslations.com 
_________________

Quotation of the day:
Author - Daniele Luttazzi
http://www.logos.it/bio/daniele_luttazzi.html

English - isn�t it ironic that a place known as the Holy Land is the place of the fiercest and deepest hatred that exists on this planet?
Italian - non � ironico che un posto chiamato Terra Santa sia il luogo dell�odio pi� feroce e profondo che esista su questo pianeta?
Spanish - no resulta ir�nico que un lugar llamado Tierra Santa concentre el odio m�s feroz y profundo del planeta?
French - n'est-il pas ironique que le lieu connu sous le nom de Terre Sainte soit l'endroit qui abrite la haine la plus v�h�mente et la plus profonde de cette plan�te?
Portuguese - n�o � ir�nico que o local designado por Terra Santa seja o lugar do �dio mais feroz e profundo que existe neste planeta?
Brazilian Portuguese - n�o parece ironia, que um lugar que se chame Terra Santa, seja o lugar do �dio mais terr�vel e profundo que exista sobre a face deste planeta?
German - ist es nicht ironisch, dass ein Ort, welcher Heilige Erde genannt wird, Schauplatz des verbissensten und tiefsten Hasses ist, den es auf diesem Planeten gibt?
Hungarian - nem ironikus az, hogy pontosan egy Szenf�ld nevu t�rs�g legyen a legvadabb �s legm�lyebb gyul�let helye ezen a bolyg�n?
Finnish - eik� ole ironista, ett� Pyh�ksi maaksi kutsutussa paikassa el�� planeetan kiihkein ja syvin viha?
Catalan - no �s ir�nic que un lloc anomenat Terra Santa sigui el lloc del odi m�s ferotge i profund que existeix sobre aquest planeta
Croatian - zar nije ironicno da je Sveta Zemlja mjesto najvece i najdublje mr�nje koja postoji na ovom svijetu
Czech - nen� ironi�, �e m�sto zvan� Svat� zeme je svedkem nejprud�� a nejhlub�� nen�visti, jakou lze na t�to planete naj�t?
Dutch - is het niet ironisch dat precies op een plek beter gekend als het Heilige Land de hardnekkigste kiemen ontspruiten van bittere en onverzoenlijke haat?
Emiliano-Romagnolo - la n'� bela ca un locc ch'us cema 'Tira Senta', la sia e post indov u i � l'odi pi� intignid e smusred dint'e mond?
Furlan - nol � cjap� in z�r che un puest clam� Tiere Sante al sedi un l�c di odio beste�l e profont cal esist su chest planete?
Latin - nonne ironicus est locum quendam, Terram Sanctam appellatum, ferocioris et profundioris odii sedem esse?
Latvian; Lettish vai tas nav ironiski, ka vieta, kura ir pazistama ka sveta zeme, ir vieta, kur valda visniknakais un dzilakais naids, kads pastav uz �is planetas?
Occitan - es ren ir�nic que un p�st sonat T�rra Santa sie lo luec de l'�di mai sarvatge e fons que i sie sus aquesta planeta?
Polish - nie jest ironia losu, ze miejsce nazywane Ziemia Swieta jest miejscem najbardziej zacietej i glebokiej nienawisci na tej planecie?
Romanian - nu este oare ironic ca un loc numit Pam�nt Sf�nt sa fie locul urei cele mai feroce si ad�nci care exista pe aceasta planeta?
Slovak - nie je ir�niou, �e miesto naz�van� Sv�t� zem je svedkom najprud�ej a najhlb�ej nen�visti, ak� mo�no n�jst na tejto plan�te?
Venetian - no fa soridare che on posto che vien ciam� Tera Santa el sia el posto 'ndove ghe x� l'odio pi� grando e feroce che ghe sia so sta tera?
Sicilian - nun � d' arr�riri, ca 'n postu dittu 'Terra Santa', � chiddu unni c'� l'odiu cchi� feru e prufunnu supra a tuttu 'u munnu?
Flemish - is het niet ironisch dat precies op een plek beter gekend als het Heilige Land de hardnekkigste kiemen ontspruiten van bittere en onverzoenlijke haat?
Calabrese - nun � ironico ca nu puostu ca si chiama Terra SAnta � u puostu dell' odio chi� feroce che c'e supa u pianeta
Reggiano - vin m�a da r�der a pins�r che un sit ch'al ci�men T�ra Santa al sia coll dove gh'� l'odj pi� cat�v e prof�nd ed tott al mond?
Ferrarese - el brisa ironic ch'un post ciam� Tera Santa al sia al post dl'odi pi� rabios e prufond ch'ag sia su questa tera? 

_________________

All languages, please click on this link
http://www.rol.it/owa-k/press.frasiproc.carica?code=431
_________________

To unsubscribe from Verba Volant, please follow this link:
http://www.rol.it/owa-k/press.rol_ml.verbavolant 

and write in the empty field next to unsubscribe the email address that you find after "TO:" in the Verba Volant emails 
alternatively write to the following address: unsubscribe_volant at rol.it always copying the EMAIL address written after "TO:"




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Oct 29 16:47:25 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 18:47:25 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Singing The War Prayer
In-Reply-To: <2d9a332f3340649b1044cc69e9bbaf76@mixmaster.nullify.org>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 29 Oct 2001, Incognito Innominatus wrote:

> choad,
> Are the palestinians interned here in the US?
> No.
> 
> 
> So now hopefully we can move on to relevant subject 
> matter now...

I keep hoping but you keep coming up with the irrelevant crap like this...


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Oct 29 18:57:18 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 18:57:18 -0800
Subject: Singing The War Prayer
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <200110300003.TAA29495@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>


Gatton Nomen wrote:

>I am completely expendable, I have no family members
>that depend on me, and I am technically proficient
>enough to do most electrical work, and highly trained 
>in Martial Arts and personal hygiene, and I love This Country.

Covert operators are most often detected by their body odor,
Americans have a most distinctive odor when anxious, frightened
or on pep pills issued for special ops. Native fighters operate
in the dark with acoustic reverbs and smell. Camouflage paint
is a dead giveaway, as are laundry and body soap, shampoo,
shaving lather, bug spray, weapons lubricant, food, no scent
deodorant, mouth odor. No machine detectors need to pick
these up, just a body which has no acquaintance with them.

Now the same is true of native warfighters if you calibrate
your ears and nose to pick the sound and scent, and your
own exhumations don't drown on the signal.

The 935,000 meals being dropped by the US will do just
fine to camouflage the Afghans from hunting canines and
other seeker animals used by special ops. Unless the smear
is used to track the hunters.

In Nam the heavyweight Americans could be singled out
by the impact of their booted feet compared to the half-weight
natives barefoot or in sandals. Ear to the ground like the 
Amerindians detected oncoming calvary from miles away. 
The long waves carried superbly underground as technologies 
later discovered for covert interceptions of crosstalk.

Hollywood Haq may have been detected by his use of US
cosmetics and shitting American food, smoking Winstons,
and whatever infidel brands he fell in love with.




From newsblast at wallstreetuniverse.com  Mon Oct 29 19:27:02 2001
From: newsblast at wallstreetuniverse.com (Wallstreet Universe)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 19:27:02 PST
Subject: You Have Been Sent A Halloween Card!
Message-ID: <200110300332.DAA65319@s0218.pm0.net>


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<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>



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>  Hairy palms 
>>  Claw for left thumbnail 
>>>  Tattoos 
>>>>  Unibrow 
>>>>>  Long middle finger 
>>>>>>  Lazy and tired during the day 
>>>>>>>  Sleeps with mouth open 



ANCIENT LORE: 
>  A spider rolled in butter and swallowed to cure plague and leprosy. 
>>  To cure a toothache, spit into the mouth of a frog and asked
it to carry away the pain. 
>>>  To release a person possessed by a ghost, throw dust from
your footprint at them. 
>>>>  The middle finger is poisonous and if you touch an open
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>>>>  If a candle flame suddenly turns blue, there's a ghost nearby. 
>>>>>  Pennsylvania did not have a werewolf problem; rather it
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>>>>>>>  If cat jumps over a coffin during burial, the deceased
will become a vampire. 



FRIGHTENING FACTS: 
>  Dracula is the most filmed story of all time. 
>>  The biggest pumpkin to date weighed 1,092 lbs. at the 1998 Pumkinfest. 
>>>  Vincent Price almost became a gourmet cook instead of an actor. 
>>>>  Halloween candy sales average around 2 billion in the U.S. 
>>>>>  Months that start on a Sunday always have a Friday the 13th. 
>>>>>>  A dentist invented the Electric Chair. 
>>>>>>>  In France over 30,000 werewolf cases were tried between
1520 and 1630. 



WATCH OUT & BE CAREFUL OF WHAT LURKS BENEATH???

Steven Schwartz and Staff
mailto:support at wallstreetuniverse.com




<<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>>
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From schear at lvcm.com  Mon Oct 29 19:46:50 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 19:46:50 -0800
Subject: Fwd: Returned mail: Too many hops 26 (25 max): from
   via 100m.mpr200-1.esr.lvcm.net, to
  
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011029194404.0491c420@pop3.lvcm.com>


[This afternoon I received a spam with an odd address in the To: field.  It 
had the same prefix (lvcm) as my ISP but had the .net suffix (instead of 
.com)  I decided on a little experiment, sending a test message and 
received the following results.  Does this look at all odd?  steve]

>Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 19:21:31 -0800 (PST)
>From: Mail Delivery Subsystem 
>To: 
>To: postmaster at mt1.lvcm.net
>Subject: Returned mail: Too many hops 26 (25 max): from  
>via 100m.mpr200-1.esr.lvcm.net, to 
>Auto-Submitted: auto-generated (failure)
>
>The original message was received at Mon, 29 Oct 2001 19:21:31 -0800 (PST)
>from 100m.mpr200-1.esr.lvcm.net [24.234.0.80]
>
>    ----- The following addresses had permanent delivery errors -----
>
>
>Reporting-MTA: dns; mt1.lvcm.net
>Received-From-MTA: DNS; 100m.mpr200-1.esr.lvcm.net
>Arrival-Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 19:21:31 -0800 (PST)
>
>Final-Recipient: RFC822; User at mt1.lvcm.net
>Action: failed
>Status: 5.4.6
>Last-Attempt-Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 19:21:31 -0800 (PST)
>Return-Path: <>
>Received: from 100m.mpr200-1.esr.lvcm.net (100m.mpr200-1.esr.lvcm.net 
>[24.234.0.80])
>         by mt1.lvcm.net (Mirapoint)
>         with ESMTP id APT41223;
>         Mon, 29 Oct 2001 19:21:31 -0800 (PST)
>Received: from mt1.lvcm.net (mt1.lvcm.net [24.234.0.82])
>         by 100m.mpr200-1.esr.lvcm.net (Mirapoint)
>         with ESMTP id AQT35403;
>         Mon, 29 Oct 2001 19:20:22 -0800 (PST)
>Received: from 100m.mpr200-1.esr.lvcm.net (100m.mpr200-1.esr.lvcm.net 
>[24.234.0.80])
>         by mt1.lvcm.net (Mirapoint)
>         with ESMTP id APT40924;
>         Mon, 29 Oct 2001 19:20:20 -0800 (PST)
>Received: from mt1.lvcm.net (mt1.lvcm.net [24.234.0.82])
>         by 100m.mpr200-1.esr.lvcm.net (Mirapoint)
>         with ESMTP id AQT34912;
>         Mon, 29 Oct 2001 19:16:40 -0800 (PST)
>Received: from 100m.mpr200-1.esr.lvcm.net (100m.mpr200-1.esr.lvcm.net 
>[24.234.0.80])
>         by mt1.lvcm.net (Mirapoint)
>         with ESMTP id APT39692;
>         Mon, 29 Oct 2001 19:16:38 -0800 (PST)
>Received: from mt1.lvcm.net (mt1.lvcm.net [24.234.0.82])
>         by 100m.mpr200-1.esr.lvcm.net (Mirapoint)
>         with ESMTP id AQT34407;
>         Mon, 29 Oct 2001 19:12:53 -0800 (PST)
>Received: from 100m.mpr200-1.esr.lvcm.net (100m.mpr200-1.esr.lvcm.net 
>[24.234.0.80])
>         by mt1.lvcm.net (Mirapoint)
>         with ESMTP id APT38471;
>         Mon, 29 Oct 2001 19:12:49 -0800 (PST)
>Received: from mt1.lvcm.net (mt1.lvcm.net [24.234.0.82])
>         by 100m.mpr200-1.esr.lvcm.net (Mirapoint)
>         with ESMTP id AQT33318;
>         Mon, 29 Oct 2001 19:04:27 -0800 (PST)
>Received: from 100m.mpr200-1.esr.lvcm.net (100m.mpr200-1.esr.lvcm.net 
>[24.234.0.80])
>         by mt1.lvcm.net (Mirapoint)
>         with ESMTP id APT35863;
>         Mon, 29 Oct 2001 19:04:16 -0800 (PST)
>Received: from mt1.lvcm.net (mt1.lvcm.net [24.234.0.82])
>         by 100m.mpr200-1.esr.lvcm.net (Mirapoint)
>         with ESMTP id AQT33242;
>         Mon, 29 Oct 2001 19:04:07 -0800 (PST)
>Received: from 100m.mpr200-1.esr.lvcm.net (100m.mpr200-1.esr.lvcm.net 
>[24.234.0.80])
>         by mt1.lvcm.net (Mirapoint)
>         with ESMTP id APT35764;
>         Mon, 29 Oct 2001 19:04:02 -0800 (PST)
>Received: from mt1.lvcm.net (mt1.lvcm.net [24.234.0.82])
>         by 100m.mpr200-1.esr.lvcm.net (Mirapoint)
>         with ESMTP id AQT33216;
>         Mon, 29 Oct 2001 19:03:56 -0800 (PST)
>Received: from 100m.mpr200-1.esr.lvcm.net (100m.mpr200-1.esr.lvcm.net 
>[24.234.0.80])
>         by mt1.lvcm.net (Mirapoint)
>         with ESMTP id APT35731;
>         Mon, 29 Oct 2001 19:03:55 -0800 (PST)
>Received: from mt1.lvcm.net (mt1.lvcm.net [24.234.0.82])
>         by 100m.mpr200-1.esr.lvcm.net (Mirapoint)
>         with ESMTP id AQT31707;
>         Mon, 29 Oct 2001 18:51:11 -0800 (PST)
>Received: from 100m.mpr200-1.esr.lvcm.net (100m.mpr200-1.esr.lvcm.net 
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>         by mt1.lvcm.net (Mirapoint)
>         with ESMTP id APT31709;
>         Mon, 29 Oct 2001 18:51:09 -0800 (PST)
>Received: from mt1.lvcm.net (mt1.lvcm.net [24.234.0.82])
>         by 100m.mpr200-1.esr.lvcm.net (Mirapoint)
>         with ESMTP id AQT29929;
>         Mon, 29 Oct 2001 18:34:03 -0800 (PST)
>Received: from 100m.mpr200-1.esr.lvcm.net (100m.mpr200-1.esr.lvcm.net 
>[24.234.0.80])
>         by mt1.lvcm.net (Mirapoint)
>         with ESMTP id APT27287;
>         Mon, 29 Oct 2001 18:34:02 -0800 (PST)
>Received: from mt1.lvcm.net (mt1.lvcm.net [24.234.0.82])
>         by 100m.mpr200-1.esr.lvcm.net (Mirapoint)
>         with ESMTP id AQT29510;
>         Mon, 29 Oct 2001 18:29:35 -0800 (PST)
>Received: from 100m.mpr200-1.esr.lvcm.net (100m.mpr200-1.esr.lvcm.net 
>[24.234.0.80])
>         by mt1.lvcm.net (Mirapoint)
>         with ESMTP id APT26160;
>         Mon, 29 Oct 2001 18:29:29 -0800 (PST)
>Received: from mt1.lvcm.net (mt1.lvcm.net [24.234.0.82])
>         by 100m.mpr200-1.esr.lvcm.net (Mirapoint)
>         with ESMTP id AQT27619;
>         Mon, 29 Oct 2001 18:11:36 -0800 (PST)
>Received: from 100m.mpr200-1.esr.lvcm.net (100m.mpr200-1.esr.lvcm.net 
>[24.234.0.80])
>         by mt1.lvcm.net (Mirapoint)
>         with ESMTP id APT20725;
>         Mon, 29 Oct 2001 18:11:33 -0800 (PST)
>Received: from mt1.lvcm.net (mt1.lvcm.net [24.234.0.82])
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From vielmm at yahoo.com  Mon Oct 29 13:15:14 2001
From: vielmm at yahoo.com (Aleksandr)
Date: 29 Oct 2001 21:15:14 -0000
Subject: ,   ,,,,!
Message-ID: <1004390114.69183.qmail@ech>


kodirovka KOI-8R

��������� �������!

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       ���� ����������� ������� ������ ������ (������ ������) ��������� ��������������� �� �������� ������ �.�. ���������� ����� � � �������.
      � �������� ���������� ���������� ������, �� ���������� �� �����. ����, ��� �������� �������� �� ������.

        ��� ���������� � ������� ����� �������� �� �����: www.viel.f2s.com 

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    ��� ��������� ������� ������� � ����������, ����������� ��������� ��������������� ������� ��� �������� �������� �����. ��� ����������� ��������� ������������� ���, ����, ����������� �����, � ����� ����������� ��������.
����� ������������ ������ ���������� � ���� � �� ������, �� �� ��������� � ����������� �������� � ����� �� ��� �����. 
     ���������� ������ �������� �������� ��� ��������� �������������. ��� �� �������� ����� ����� � ��������� ����������� � �������� ����������� �����. ��������� ������ �������������� - ������ ����, ����� ������������� ������������� � ����� �������� � ������� ������ �����, ����� ����������� ���� � ������� ��������� �� 85��..

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� ��������� ����� �� ���������� ���������� ���������� ������������� ������: �������������� �������� ��� ����������� ���������� ������������� ����!!!(D �� 25 �� 1000��.)
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         �� ���� ��� � �������� ����������� � ���, ��� ����������� � ���, �� �������� ����������������� ������, ������������ ��������� � ����� ������������, ����������� ��������� ������ ������.

�� ���� �������� �� ������ ���������� �� ��������� � �. ������: (095) 275-89-94,746-68-78




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From anmetet at freedom.gmsociety.org  Mon Oct 29 18:36:58 2001
From: anmetet at freedom.gmsociety.org (An Metet)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 21:36:58 -0500
Subject: Singing The War Prayer
Message-ID: <4550e11436c7a99cbb9f6019b895c291@freedom.gmsociety.org>


   This guy is just some faggot fed troll -- probably Jeff 
Gordon in drag.




From bounce at corp.freerealtime.com  Mon Oct 29 21:49:55 2001
From: bounce at corp.freerealtime.com (FRT Special Situations & Alerts)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 21:49:55 -0800
Subject: Administrative notice
Message-ID: 

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
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URL: 

From maxinux at bigfoot.com  Mon Oct 29 22:23:55 2001
From: maxinux at bigfoot.com (Max Inux)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 22:23:55 -0800
Subject: Transperancy Spray?
Message-ID: <20011029222355.A10269@spheno.jokeslayer.com>


Well, I was watching CNN and it looks like the Postal workers now are armed with a new weapon.. Against terror of course.  THe 
whole cant read someone elses mail thing is out the window it looks like, they can spray this go on the letter and read 
through the envelope..  It seems implausable but its CNN, they dont lie right? well ANYWAYS, I now have a nice stash of black 
construction paper...

Max Inux




From info at giganetstore.com  Mon Oct 29 14:38:18 2001
From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 22:38:18 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?N=E3o_deixe_de...?=
Message-ID: <0161d1938221da1WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com>

     
Não deixe de ouvir as últimas novidades do 
Mundo da Música
Eis algumas sugestões:
  
Moulin Rouge
 
OST
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14,91€ 
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4.990$00 
24,89€ 
Mythodea
 
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2.990$00 
14,91€ 
  
Nue
 
Lara Fabian 
2.990$00 
14,91€ What Sound
 
Lamb 
2.990$00 
14,91€ All Back To Mine
 
Moloko
3.790$00 
18,90€ 
  
Moonlight
 
Maria João Pires
3.190$00 
15,91€ 
The Very Best Of
 
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4.490$00 
22,40€ Ten New Songs
 
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Veja mais Novidades »»
  
  
Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site
http:\\www.giganetstore.com  , ir à edição
do seu registo e retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das nossas
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From measl at mfn.org  Mon Oct 29 21:44:33 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 23:44:33 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Singing The War Prayer
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 29 Oct 2001, Incognito Innominatus wrote:

> Mr. Melon, 
  ^^^^^^^^^
I get a chuckle out of this every time I see it :-)



> Are there 40,000 'interned' at this time?
> No.

1000 according to what I've read, more according to people "in the
community".

> Is our technical intelligence better this time?
> I would say so, given the Evolution of Related Things.
> Thats why 40,000 arent sitting in holding pens now. 

So until we hit 40k we are "ok"? 

You are an idiot.

> That would be Bad. Would you prefer
> that NONE be held?

Yes.  Charge them legitimately or let them go.

> Dont act as if everyone is 
> innocent, dude. Theres a good reason for
> those people to be in there, and its not 'just because'.
> Theres a BIG difference between 1000 and 40,000! 

No, there is not a "big difference".  There is no real difference, and it
is fascist scum like YOU that gets us into these [9/110like] messes in the
first place.

> gatton

Huh?  Is this your accidental identifier?

To quote Tim - off to the Cornfield for you.  If only I could automate it
:-(

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Tue Oct 30 00:42:07 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 00:42:07 -0800
Subject: Transperancy Spray?
In-Reply-To: <20011029222355.A10269@spheno.jokeslayer.com>; from
  maxinux@bigfoot.com on Mon, Oct 29, 2001 at 10:23:55PM -0800
References: <20011029222355.A10269@spheno.jokeslayer.com>
Message-ID: <20011030004206.D2219@navel.introspect>


on Mon, Oct 29, 2001 at 10:23:55PM -0800, Max Inux (maxinux at bigfoot.com)
wrote:
> Well, I was watching CNN and it looks like the Postal workers now are
> armed with a new weapon.. Against terror of course.  THe whole cant read
> someone elses mail thing is out the window it looks like, they can spray
> this go on the letter and read through the envelope..  It seems
> implausable but its CNN, they dont lie right? well ANYWAYS, I now have a
> nice stash of black construction paper...

That's been around quite the while:

    http://www.google.com/search?q=envelope%20transparent%20spray

    http://www.countdown.org/end/big_brother_13.htm

    Source: Robert Uhlig, Electronic Telegraph
    Date: 3rd March, 2001

    [We've got mail] An aerosol spray that makes unopened envelopes
    transparent so that the contents can be read has been invented.

    "You spray it on and it temporarily makes the envelope clear," said
    Robert Schlegel, vice-president of the makers, Mistral Security, of
    Maryland. "It leaves an odor for 10 to 15 minutes, but there is no
    smudging of ink, no stain, no evidence at all. The envelope is
    transparent for a few minutes and you can respray it hundreds of
    times without leaving any stain."

I'd heard of use of same by CIA going back maybe ten years, if not
longer.

Peace.

--
Karsten M. Self        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?             Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]




From jim_windle at eudoramail.com  Mon Oct 29 21:44:46 2001
From: jim_windle at eudoramail.com (Jim Windle)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 01:44:46 -0400
Subject: [Fwd: [biofuel] VW presents new synthetic fuel strategy]
Message-ID: 


Earlier this year I saw an interesting presentation at the NY Academy of Sciences by the head science guy from Genencor Int'l.( http://www.genencor.com )  He talked about some of the long range research they are doing about enzymes which will allow them to use protiens, starches and cellulose from agricultural sources to make useful polymers.  They are a long way from replacing oil as the feedstock but the research they are doing is pretty interesting though not really focused on automotive fuel so much as other "petrochemicals".

Jim Windle
--

On Sun, 28 Oct 2001 22:26:11   Bill Stewart wrote:
>
>At 02:54 PM 10/26/2001 -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>>        Biodiesel is being sold in the US as we speak for anywhere from $.99
>>to $2.50 a gallon, depending upon whether it's made from waste or virgin
>>vegetable oil. Given the economies of scale working here, once they build
>>up a larger presence, those prices will drop. And, if I'm not mistaken,
>>much of Europe is already mandating that all diesel be sold with at least
>>20% biodiesel.
>>         You might also look at Brazil which fuels a large portion of it's
>>vehicles with ethanol already.
>>           VW's new fuel will be even cheaper.
>
>Making biodiesel from virgin oil scales well, since you can use
>non-food-grade oils, but there's still a substantial ecological effect
>of converting land from non-farming or food-farming to energy-farming.
>Waste vegetable oil has a much different scaling ability -
>until you get most fast-food french-fry leftovers used for fuel oil,
>it scales up really well, but after that it hits the wall.
>
>Ethanol has similar problems - you need to grow a lot of sugary or starchy 
>crops,
>which not only displace food crops (having similar land needs),
>but at least in third-world countries tend to be grown by
>slash-and-burn agriculture, which rapidly destroys land, usually rainforest.
>
>On the other hand, for an area that doesn't have oil,
>the tradeoff between wasting farmland for energy crops and
>using it for export crops to buy energy from outside could go either way.
>Of course, when the "area" has government boundaries defining it,
>especially in the third world, there tends to be a huge amount of
>social policy and/or corruption distorting the market prices.
>But sometimes you can exploit other governments' corrupt social policies,
>e.g. grow cocaine or opium and buy oil or food or toys with the profits.
>
>


Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com




From graham.nash at hushmail.com  Tue Oct 30 02:36:19 2001
From: graham.nash at hushmail.com (graham.nash at hushmail.com)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 02:36:19 -0800
Subject: WSJ Flaunt Clever 'Crumbs' Pun For Cookies
Message-ID: <200110301036.f9UAaJ785309@mailserver1.hushmail.com>

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From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Oct 29 08:42:29 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 03:42:29 +1100
Subject: cryptography and the present crisis
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011030032821.00a26990@pop.useoz.com>


Nomens not an idiot,Opportunity knocks,howie [ 
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/goodell/howie
  made some  suggestions for cryptosecurity
and Ive noticed a lot of fresh PGP sigs lately.Crypto will be in The mother 
of all sweet spot soon,they cant round us all up
and fight wars on 2 continents at the same time.Hell,they can barely walk 
and chew gum.
The other thing of course is this...

- Some people have even pointed out the benefits of killing
off tens of thousands of the corrupt politicians, narcs,
and cops which have implemented fascist, collectivist
policies for so long. Assassination markets may make this
much more practical.

Lets get back to basics!




From newsblast at wallstreetuniverse.com  Tue Oct 30 05:01:08 2001
From: newsblast at wallstreetuniverse.com (Wallstreet Universe)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 05:01:08 PST
Subject: Teleconferencing Stocks Soar 40-60% 
Message-ID: <200110301306.NAA75088@s0215.pm0.net>


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
THE WALLSTREET UNIVERSE REPORT - October 30, 2001
Hot Stock Profile Of The Week!
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>


INVESTMENT OPPORTUNITY - OTCBB: UDCCF, UNIVERSAL DOMAINS

On Oct. 25, 2001--Universal Domains Incorporated ( OTCBB:UDCCF )
announced that it has closed the acquisition of 100% of VCL
Communications Corp. ( VCL ). 


>  Teleconferencing Stocks Surge 40 to 60% with Continued Growth Anticipated
>>  Growth assured by Regulation Fair Disclosure Act
>>>  Annual growth of 30%-40%
>>>>  Estimated growth from $2 billion to $17 billion within next 2 years



+>+>+>  The Company will be hosting a conference call for
shareholders on Tuesday, October 30, 2001 at 1:15 EST with
respect to the products and services provided by VCL
Communications Corp. 

+>+>+>  North American Callers: 1-877-888-3490 Toll Free
+>+>+>  International Callers: 1-416-695-5259
http://www.viacall.com/investor.html



VCL is a teleconferencing services company targeting clients
throughout North America. VCL gives the customer the power to
conduct automated conference calls, on their own, for small
groups or with the assistance of an operator for larger groups. 
A key component of VCL's business model is the ability to offer
clients a cost effective, yet scalable means of communications
that can be customized to meet individual customer needs. On
demand or scheduled conference calls allow the moderators control
to conduct their own conference calls in a convenient, quick and
cost effective manner. With firmly established relationships
within the industry and extensive knowledge of teleconferencing
technology, VCL is aiming to capture a substantial share of
revenues generated within the billion dollar teleconferencing
industry. 



=======================================

UNIVERSAL DOMAIN (OTC BB:UDCCF.OB)
Monday's Closing Price  $0.20  per share	
52-week Range  $0.080 - $0.760

For further information, please contact: Investor relations
800-889-6005   or   604-646 1075   mailto:ir at viacall.com

=======================================



VCL's customer base will have access to undisrupted services
twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week. VCL's advantage in
this industry is management's years of experience in providing
telecommunications services along with very competitive rates to
end users. VCL has state of the art technology and relationships
with key providers that will allow VCL to be a leader within the
teleconferencing industry. VCL's products and services can be
viewed at www.viacall.com. 


The voice conference call market has posted unparalleled growth
over the past three years with annual growth averaging 30 to 40%.
This $2 billion dollar market is estimated to become a $17
billion dollar industry within the next 2 years.  This growth is
due, in large part, to the globalization of businesses around the
world and uneasiness within the travel industry due to recent
events.  Growth is also taking place because of the
implementation of the Regulation Fair Disclosure Act in the
United States that requires all public reporting companies to
make earnings and analyst conference calls, corporate media
announcements and other information available simultaneously to
all investors.  Similar changes in regulatory policies in
England, Canada and Japan are imminent.


+>+>+>  SUMMARY...  There is still an opportunity to invest
within the teleconferencing industry.  With the recent
acquisition of VCL Communications Corp.,   http://www.viacall.com 
(OTCBB: UDCCF),  investors can participate in this rapidly
growing market.



>>===================================>>
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providing information on selected companies.  All statements
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recommendation to buy, sell, or hold securities. Investing in
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From hakkin at sarin.com  Tue Oct 30 06:31:49 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 06:31:49 -0800
Subject: Napster execs needing culling
Message-ID: <3BDEB9D5.A9EBDF3E@sarin.com>


Napster Wants License to License
            By Michael Stroud

            2:00 a.m. Oct. 30, 2001 PST

             LOS ANGELES -- Napster CEO Konrad Hilbers says the
government should consider
            compulsory standards requiring music labels to license music
at a fair price if they
            don't close deals with Napster and other independent
distributors.

            "Like any other business person, I'm hesitant to bring
government in," Hilbers said.
            "But government has an obligation to set standards. If
there's no agreement, the
            government should consider compulsory licensing."

 http://wired.com/news/mp3/0,1285,47977,00.html

Compulsory licensing = theft, buddy.




From measl at mfn.org  Tue Oct 30 04:33:43 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 06:33:43 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Ashcroft prepares for martial law
In-Reply-To: <200110292350.f9TNoBa12729@mailserver1.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: 




On Mon, 29 Oct 2001 keyser-soze at hushmail.com wrote:

> Unlike America's Most Wanted the new dire but vague warnings are
> unlikely to cause citizens to uncover a massive new plot, I doubt they
> would have uncovered the 911 even if predictions of impending trouble
> have been announced a few days prior.  Since Congress gave him
> virtually everything he asked for the next step is martial law, though
> how that might help uncover any new plots is beyond me.

Like we have "rule of law" now, with Shrub telling us to pass laws he
wants, or have them installed anyway via executive order.

I've long wavered over whether to fight these things or encourage them, as
the encouraging may prove to be the more useful (i.e., be sufficiently
infuriating to wake some sheeple up).  I think Shrub and Friends have
provided the perfect vehicle to help us return the US to it's
*Constitutional* roots.  We just give them *everything* they ask for, then
sit back and see how long it takes for some "recently awoken" to provide a
little high velocity lead poisoning party - bringing his beer-gut buddies
of course (revolution wouldn't be any fun without beer and bullets,
right?).

Long live the Reich!  Hail whoeverthefuck!

 -- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Tue Oct 30 05:21:40 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 07:21:40 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | DEF CON "Capture the Capture The Flag" Data
Message-ID: <3BDEA964.19140A98@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/10/30/0910244.shtml
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From search1017 at qudsmail.com  Tue Oct 30 08:11:34 2001
From: search1017 at qudsmail.com (search1017 at qudsmail.com)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 08:11:34
Subject: ADV: More Web Traffic
Message-ID: <472.221638.866514@qudsmail.com>



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To be removed call: 888-800-6339 X1377




From georgemw at speakeasy.net  Tue Oct 30 09:27:30 2001
From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 09:27:30 -0800
Subject: The Password Spy
In-Reply-To: <3BDE7FA5.28221.2B19FE@localhost>
Message-ID: <3BDE7282.18847.FA72259@localhost>


On 30 Oct 2001, at 10:23, Roy M. Silvernail wrote:


> BTW, I'm looking for a convenient method to intercept data to/from 
> a serial port.  Got a piece of hardware I'm trying to reverse-
> engineer, and I'd rather avoid writing a custom serial driver.  Any 
> ideas?
> --

Umm, would a Y cable and another serial port work?

George

> Roy M. Silvernail
> Proprietor, scytale.com
> roy at scytale.com




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Tue Oct 30 10:11:14 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 10:11:14 -0800
Subject: The Password Spy
Message-ID: <3BDEED42.D15305CC@lsil.com>


"Roy M. Silvernail"  wrote :
>
>Boy, the interesting things you turn up when doing a reasonably 
>unrelated search.  The first hit for googling "spy serial connection" 
>is:
>
>http://www.passwordspy.com/
>
Gee, this wouldn't look suspicious hanging off your machine would it?

>Think the fibbies used this on that gangsta guy? ;)
>
Why bother with HW when the guy was probably running MSWindows?

>BTW, I'm looking for a convenient method to intercept data to/from 
>a serial port.  Got a piece of hardware I'm trying to reverse-
>engineer, and I'd rather avoid writing a custom serial driver.  Any 
>ideas?
>
If you're running an open source OS on one of the machines under test
you should be able to add logging to the driver. Maybe log to a buffer
instead of disk and retrieve the buffer from a simple app.

Alternatively, you could probably just add a 3rd party to the setup and
use one serial port Rx to snoop each Tx ( Pins 2 & 3 ). The chances are
that one driver could drive the two receivers. Just timestamp what you
read and log it. If there is concurrent exchange you might want to use
two separate logfiles. If the parties are politely taking turns one
logfile is fine and easier to read. This requires a fairly simple
application instead of driver level work.

>--
>Roy M. Silvernail
>Proprietor, scytale.com
>roy at scytale.com




From anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org  Tue Oct 30 08:18:02 2001
From: anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org (Incognito Innominatus)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 10:18:02 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Singing The War Prayer
Message-ID: <5d69f5db0c700c5cadd1fa931d516f83@mixmaster.nullify.org>


measley,
-I- am an idiot?
Wow, that sorta hurts. 
I am an idiot because I believe to 
a great degree that the USA in danger....
thats nice. Thanks for making me feel at
home.

Cant effectively rebut my statement,
so you insult me, and not even creatively!
which causes more hurt feelings. I really do
feel hurt, its weird. Maybe its because I 
am normally sleeping right now and I feel 
out of it, or perhaps I am excited that 
my beloved Knicks are going to break 
Jordans ass open tonight... right there at MSG. 
Perhaps I am extra touchy because I havent been 
laid since saturday, and thats what I consider a 
dry spell.

Well, you are an insensitive, uncreative jerk.


fascism-
A system of government marked by centralization of authority 
under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression 
of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically 
a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism. 
b. A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating 
such a system of government.
Oppressive, dictatorial control. 


Where do you see my advocation of any of these?
You simply dont and wont ever. 

Does a fascist state encompass all of those listed traits? Or
just one, or shades of one and none of the other, or perhaps
bits of all?
Define your terms before you use them, not knowing what they are.
I am all for guns, but shit, dont wave one around if you dont
know how to use it, it may go off in your face. If you wave around
your proud lexicon like that, I am amazed that you still have a 
face and that someone hasnt shot it off for you.



gatton




From roy at scytale.com  Tue Oct 30 08:23:33 2001
From: roy at scytale.com (Roy M. Silvernail)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 10:23:33 -0600
Subject: The Password Spy
Message-ID: <3BDE7FA5.28221.2B19FE@localhost>


Boy, the interesting things you turn up when doing a reasonably 
unrelated search.  The first hit for googling "spy serial connection" 
is:

http://www.passwordspy.com/

Think the fibbies used this on that gangsta guy? ;)

BTW, I'm looking for a convenient method to intercept data to/from 
a serial port.  Got a piece of hardware I'm trying to reverse-
engineer, and I'd rather avoid writing a custom serial driver.  Any 
ideas?
--
Roy M. Silvernail
Proprietor, scytale.com
roy at scytale.com




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Tue Oct 30 10:25:54 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 10:25:54 -0800
Subject: Transperancy Spray?
Message-ID: <3BDEF0B2.42B0E2EB@lsil.com>


>> Well, I was watching CNN and it looks like the Postal workers now are
>> armed with a new weapon.. Against terror of course.  THe whole cant read
>> someone elses mail thing is out the window it looks like, they can spray
>> this go on the letter and read through the envelope..  It seems
>> implausable but its CNN, they dont lie right? well ANYWAYS, I now have a
>> nice stash of black construction paper...
>
Yes, that would work nicely as the outside sheet.

>    "You spray it on and it temporarily makes the envelope clear," said
>    Robert Schlegel, vice-president of the makers, Mistral Security, of
>    Maryland. "It leaves an odor for 10 to 15 minutes, but there is no
>    smudging of ink, no stain, no evidence at all. The envelope is
>    transparent for a few minutes and you can respray it hundreds of
>    times without leaving any stain."
>
I would bet that there is SOMETHING that is dissolved by liquid freon.
Just mark your letters with the stuff and look for the integrity of the
mark at the other end.

The USPS won't be checking mail this way anytime soon. If they were they
would use some sort of freon recovery system to contain costs.

Oh, well, it will soon be time to go buy $2.95 stamps to pay for UV,
E-beam, freon and zoot suits.

Mike




From anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org  Tue Oct 30 08:50:01 2001
From: anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org (Incognito Innominatus)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 10:50:01 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Transparency Spray
Message-ID: 


...is nothing more than liquid freon.
Save yourself the 10x markup and buy
your own from an Optics type store.
Daub it on an envelope and trip out.


gatton




From grocha at neutraldomain.org  Tue Oct 30 11:19:36 2001
From: grocha at neutraldomain.org (Gabriel Rocha)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 11:19:36 -0800
Subject: The Password Spy
In-Reply-To: <3BDE7FA5.28221.2B19FE@localhost>; from roy@scytale.com on
  Tue, Oct 30, 2001 at 10:23:33AM -0600
References: <3BDE7FA5.28221.2B19FE@localhost>
Message-ID: <20011030111936.J10840@neutraldomain.org>


		On Tue, Oct 30, at 10:23AM, Roy M. Silvernail wrote:
| BTW, I'm looking for a convenient method to intercept data to/from 
| a serial port.  Got a piece of hardware I'm trying to reverse-
| engineer, and I'd rather avoid writing a custom serial driver.  Any 
| ideas?

http://www.earth.li/projectpurple/progs/sersniff.html

sersniff is a simple program to tunnel/sniff between 2 serial ports. 

-- 
Churchill, Winston Leonard Spencer --On the eve of Britain's entry
into World War II:
	"If you will not fight for right when you can easily win 
without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be 
sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will 
have to fight with all odds against you and only a precarious 
chance of survival. There may be even a worse fate. You may have 
to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to 
perish than to live as slaves.




From adam at homeport.org  Tue Oct 30 08:33:15 2001
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 11:33:15 -0500
Subject: Napster execs needing culling
In-Reply-To: <3BDEB9D5.A9EBDF3E@sarin.com>
References: <3BDEB9D5.A9EBDF3E@sarin.com>
Message-ID: <20011030113315.A434@weathership.homeport.org>


On Tue, Oct 30, 2001 at 06:31:49AM -0800, Khoder bin Hakkin wrote:
| Napster Wants License to License
|             By Michael Stroud
| LOS ANGELES -- Napster CEO Konrad Hilbers says the
| government should consider
| compulsory standards requiring music labels to license music
| at a fair price if they
| don't close deals with Napster and other independent
| distributors.
[...]
| Compulsory licensing = theft, buddy.

Perhaps you should expand your analysis to non-excludable goods (those 
things which, like air, don't get used up).

The government grants people who've created stories, songs, and other
works certain rights in those works.  The set of rights that they've
been granted has changed dramatically over time, usually driven by new 
technology, such as the printing press, the radio, or the internet.

Compulsory licensing of something that the government gave you is very 
different from compulsory licensing of something you created.
Further, compulsory licensing of a non-excludable good (such as TV
broadcasts) is very different from compulsory licensing of an
excludable good, such as your computer.



-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume




From declan at well.com  Tue Oct 30 08:56:33 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 11:56:33 -0500
Subject: The Password Spy
In-Reply-To: <3BDE7FA5.28221.2B19FE@localhost>; from roy@scytale.com on
  Tue, Oct 30, 2001 at 10:23:33AM -0600
References: <3BDE7FA5.28221.2B19FE@localhost>
Message-ID: <20011030115633.B2138@cluebot.com>


Not new -- there are categories for such 'ware at Google and Yahoo, last
I checked. As for the serial connection, the FBI claimed that's exactly
what they weren't looking at -- instead, they were snatching his keystrokes.

-Declan


On Tue, Oct 30, 2001 at 10:23:33AM -0600, Roy M. Silvernail wrote:
> Boy, the interesting things you turn up when doing a reasonably 
> unrelated search.  The first hit for googling "spy serial connection" 
> is:
> 
> http://www.passwordspy.com/
> 
> Think the fibbies used this on that gangsta guy? ;)
> 
> BTW, I'm looking for a convenient method to intercept data to/from 
> a serial port.  Got a piece of hardware I'm trying to reverse-
> engineer, and I'd rather avoid writing a custom serial driver.  Any 
> ideas?
> --
> Roy M. Silvernail
> Proprietor, scytale.com
> roy at scytale.com




From teamsales at wehavetraffic.com  Tue Oct 30 04:33:10 2001
From: teamsales at wehavetraffic.com (Neolithic)
Date: 30 Oct 2001 12:33:10 +0000
Subject: Bulk Quality web traffic cheaper than search engines, how?
Message-ID: <18161.237194.52295877 cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com>



Dear webmaster,

Just a quick e-mail to say i saw your site today and it looks great...

We specialize in high amounts of targeted traffic and i think we could supply you with 
lots of US and UK traffic from as little as 1 pence or 1.5 cents per hit, if this is of any 
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Simply contact me on ICQ #135241830 Neolithic or email webtraffic at consultant.com 




From baptista at pccf.net  Tue Oct 30 09:44:40 2001
From: baptista at pccf.net (!Dr. Joe Baptista)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 12:44:40 -0500 (EST)
Subject: FC: FBI's NIPC on "cyber protests" and political hacking (fwd)
Message-ID: 


i doubt this announcement is any surprise.

Joe Baptista

http://www.dot-god.com/

The dot.GOD Registry, Limited
The Executive Plaza, Suite 908
150 West 51st Street                     Tel: 1 (208) 330-4173
Manhattan Island NYC 10019 USA           Fax: 1 (208) 293-9773

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 21:05:03 -0500
From: " Scully at cipherwar.com" 
To: declan at well.com
Subject: NIPC: The Threat to the U.S. Information Infrastructure

Source: http://www.nipc.gov/publications/nipcpub/cyberprotests.pdf

National Infrastructure Protection Center
Cyber Protests: The Threat to the U.S. Information Infrastructure
October 2001

Executive Summary

Political events and emerging international situations will
increasingly lead to cyber protests. The cyber protests that have
occurred thus far have had little impact on U.S. infrastructure. As
computing technology becomes faster and better, and hacking tools
become more advanced and easier to use, cyber protesting and
hacktivism will become more significant to U.S. national interests.
Cyber protesters are becoming increasingly more organized and their
techniques more sophisticated but, most likely, will continue to
deface web sites and perform DoS attacks. There will also be an
increase in the number of apparently unrelated hacking groups
participating in the cyber protests. National boundaries will not
always be clearly delineated in attacks on opposing organizations.
International activity will also tend to spill over into the United
States. Because the United States is a multicultural, world-leading
nation it will suffer from attacks on culturally related sites and
structures in the future.

Generally, the most popularly targeted sites are those belonging to
government, educational, commercial, and cultural institutions.
However, any site with an exploitable vulnerability will be
susceptible to a cyber attack. The infrastructure has been targeted in
other countries in cyber protests and it is expected that it will
eventually be targeted in the United States as well. Cyber protesters
certainly will target infrastructure more often and exploit
opportunities to disrupt or damage it.

Web sites that remain open to known hacking tools will have a higher
probability of suffering defacement. Network administrators must
remain educated and defenses must evolve along with the threats and
offensive capabilities. Although the cyber protests seen today have
already caused limited damage, the potential for future attacks could
bring about large economic losses as well as potentially severe damage
to the national infrastructure, affecting global markets as well as
public safety.

Introduction

In the last decade, with the explosion of the size of the Internet,
protests and political activism have entered a new realm. (1)
Political activism on the Internet has already generated a wide range
of activity, from using e-mail and web sites to organize, to web page
defacements and denial-of-service (DoS) attacks. (2) These politically
motivated computer-based attacks are usually described as hacktivism,
a marriage of hacking and political activism.

In addition to the consistent activity of groups devoted to a specific
long-term cause, the Internet has also seen short-term periods of
intense political activity, which can be referred to as cyber
protests. Cyber protests have become a worldwide phenomenon available
to anyone with access to computers. Unrestrained by geographic
boundaries, protesters have an enormous forum in which to be heard.

Cyber protesters have a wide range of goals or objectives. Some
hackers want to expose government corruption or fundamental violation
of human rights; others just want to hack and cause mischief for fun.
It has only been since 1998 that cyber protests have skyrocketed in
popularity and become commonplace in today's computerized world.

The most common type of cyber protest comes in the form of web page
defacements. In such scenarios, a web site is compromised through some
security deficiency and the hacker is able to alter it, many times
placing propaganda, profanity, or pornographic images on it. This can
range from being a nuisance and embarrassment for an organization to a
major economic loss for an e-commerce business.

Protests and civil disturbances are nothing new. People unhappy with
their situations have always found outlets to spread their message, be
it a peaceful sit-in, letter-writing campaign, picket march, or
violent gang fight. Now, with the advent of the Internet and the
growing number of people online, it has become easier to organize
protests. That is not to say that every web defacement is an organized
event on the part of some political organization. Many defacements are
perpetrated by lone hackers that have no political motivation other
than to create chaos. Nation-states and their respective citizens have
also been involved in cyber protests. Several countries have waged
ongoing cyber battles against each other through web defacements and
DoS attacks. Mail bombing is a popular form of a DoS attack. Massive
amounts of e-mail or web traffic are directed against a specific site,
overloading it and causing it to crash. It should be noted, however,
that some parties involved in these cyber protests are not citizens of
the respective countries. They might hold similar views or they might
be involved just to participate in hacking different sites. Alliances
can be tenuous at best for some of these groups.

Chinese Hackers

One high profile incident occurred in May 1999 after the United States
accidentally bombed the Chinese embassy in Belgrade, Yugoslavia during
the NATO air campaign. U.S. web sites were defaced in the name of
China and massive e-mail campaigns were executed to gain sympathy and
support for the Chinese cause. Government web sites were primarily
targeted. The U.S. Departments of Energy and the Interior, and the
National Park Service all suffered web page defacements. In addition,
the White House web site was taken down for three days after it was
continually mail bombed. This action was relatively unorganized in
fashion, short in length, and affected a small number of U.S. sites.

Pro-Chinese hackers also acted against Taiwan during the Taiwanese
presidential elections in August and September 1999. Cyber protesters
and hacktivists compromised 165 Taiwanese web sites, mainly defacing
them, over the two-month period. Their ultimate goal, as it was
stated, was to negatively affect and bring down Taiwan's
infrastructure. Among the targeted sites were electricity, economic
institutions, telecommunications, and air traffic control. Although
teams began to develop and organize near the end of the operations,
the damage was relatively light, similar to the attacks on U.S. sites
earlier in the year. Importantly, strategic targeting and some
organization of forces became accepted strategies for future protests
and hacks. These hackers are likely to become more organized and more
successful in future incidents. (3)

In late April and early May 2001 pro-Chinese hacktivists and cyber
protesters began a cyber assault on U.S. web sites. This resulted from
an incident in early April where a Chinese fighter jet was lost at sea
after colliding with a U.S. naval reconnaissance airplane. It also
coincided with the two-year anniversary of the Chinese embassy bombing
by the United States in Belgrade and the traditionally celebrated May
Day and Youth Day in China. Led by the Honkers Union of China (HUC),
pro-Chinese hackers defaced or crashed over 100 seemingly random web
sites, mainly .gov and .com, through DoS attacks and similar exploits.
(4) Although some of the tools used were sophisticated, they were
readily available to both sides on the Internet.

Many defacements of U.S. sites included posting pictures of the dead
Chinese pilot Wang Wei and profane messages calling for the downfall
of the United States. ProUnited States hackers responded with similar
defacements, messages, and damage on 300 Chinese web sites. Of
interest is that some pro-Chinese hackers violated hacker etiquette by
wiping some compromised servers. (5) The rule of thumb is to deface or
crash a web site but to leave the information intact, otherwise it is
considered bad form. (6)

Israeli and Palestinian Hackers

In October 2000, Israeli and Palestinian hackers engaged in
adversarial hacking when the prolonged peace talks between the two
groups broke down. During this difficult time, hackers seized the
opportunity to attack web sites belonging to the opposition. Starting
October 6, 2000, 40 Israeli web sites and at least 15 Palestinian web
sites suffered defacements at the hands of opposing hackers. (7) This
coincided, of course, with physical violence in the region. It was
also a problem for U.S. based web sites. U.S. web sites will often
fall victim, regardless of their lack of proximity or involvement in
the events. For example, several U.S. sites were hacked by
pro-Palestinian hacktivists, including the take down of a lobbyist
group web site. The hackers then posted group membership information
and credit card numbers. (8) This activity did little to affect the
United States as a whole although it illustrates how a seemingly
unrelated event can potentially affect U.S. sites.

The level of sophistication ranged from low-level activity using
simple defacements to coordinated, relatively sophisticated attacks
such as potential root access penetrations. Several hacking tools were
developed specifically for this engagement. Any type of attack was
considered during this time, including the perpetration of viruses,
DoS attacks with e-mail bombing, and sustained, amplified pinging
attacks. Web sites containing these various hacking tools were readily
available for download to anyone who wanted to join the action.

Pro-Palestinian hackers hit any type of Israeli sites that they were
able to compromise, many times defacing them with messages such as,
"Free Palestine" or "Free Kashmir." (9) FloodNet software was a major
tool used by the Israelis. The cyber protesters simply visited a site
and FloodNet would repeatedly send requests to the targeted server.
This type of virtual sit-in is a popular form of a DoS attack. Many of
these attacks were successful as servers were bombarded and went down
repeatedly. Targets included ethnic specific organizational web sites
and those of financial institutions to disrupt the infrastructure.
E-commerce sites crashed and there was an economic impact reflected in
the Israeli markets. It was, however, the root access attempts that
were most dangerous for the defenders. Hackers who can gain root
access to sites give them unlimited freedom to do whatever they wish.
This is the highest level of penetration possible although no
successful root access penetrations were reported.

These events attracted a wide variety of hackers eager to join the
fight. Both sides were well-organized and used reconnaissance and
intelligence gathering techniques to maximize their effectiveness.
Even outside hacking groups, such as G-Force Pakistan, joined forces
with the Palestinians to lend a helping hand. This is increasingly
common. Some outside groups join an effort because they have similar
political or ethnic motivations, however, this is not always the case.
Some groups participate in hacks simply for the desire to hack or the
publicity, not out of a sense of loyalty.

Overall it can be expected that Israeli and Palestinian hackers will
be active whenever a stumbling block appears in the road to possible
peace between the groups. On the other hand, increased hacking might
also occur when the Israelis and Palestinians are close to a peace
agreement. System administrators must remain vigilant and focused on
providing effective network security.

Indian and Pakistani Hackers

Another example is India and Pakistan engaging in a cyber protest
caused by national and ethnic differences. After a cease-fire in the
Kashmir Valley hackers took it upon themselves to continue the
hostilities. In 2000, pro-Pakistani hackers defaced more than 500
Indian web sites. Conversely, only one known Pakistani site was hacked
by the Indians. This illustrates a large difference in technical,
hacking abilities or the willingness to use the skills to strike at an
adversary. In this event the apparent level of sophistication on both
sides is relatively low. Web site defacements are the leading form of
this protest. The group G-Force Pakistan was the most active group
claiming involvement in the events. 10

Japanese Incidents

Recently, Japan has been targeted twice in online protests. During the
first week of April 2001, pro-Korean hackers attacked Japanese
organizations responsible for the approval of a new history textbook.
The textbook glossed over atrocities committed by Japan during World
War II and the occupation of China and South Korea. The perceived
reluctance of Japan to accept responsibility for its actions triggered
these events. The main participants in this incident were Korean
university students, who used e-mail bombs in a DoS attack. The
students crashed several web sites, including Japan's Education
Ministry, Liberal Democratic Party and the publishing company
responsible for the textbook." These attacks were neither long lasting
nor were they largely organized.

In early August 2001, pro-Chinese hackers targeted Japanese web sites
after Japan's Prime Minister visited a controversial war memorial, the
Yasukuni Shrine. In a brief period of time, hackers defaced several
web sites belonging mainly to Japanese companies and research
institutes. 12 This indicates the continuing willingness of
pro-Chinese hackers to use cyberspace and hacking tools as a platform
for protests and cyber civil disobedience, as well as for displaying a
strong sense of patriotic nationalism.

Conclusions

While the cyber damage thus far has been minimal, the infrastructure
will certainly be a target of cyber protestors and hacktivists in the
future, with the potential goal being intentional destruction rather
than public embarrassment or purely political statements. Pro-active
network defense and security management are imperative to the
prevention of more serious damage to infrastructure assets.
International cooperation and private-public cooperation within the
United States is necessary to ensure the ongoing function of the
critical infrastructure.

FOOTNOTES:

1. Historically, groups have never had the global platform that the
Internet provides today. Bulletin boards and group subscriber lists
were the only computerized links protestors had from the 1970s through
the early 1990s. The introduction of web browsers supporting graphics
and multimedia content and the expansive growth of the Internet,
coupled with the growing number of home computers, gave organizations
a new outlet for distributing information or disrupting events for a
political cause. The fact that many organizations have a web site has
enabled them to spread their beliefs to a wider audience. It has also
enabled other groups to target them for attack.

2. Freedom of speech is a fundamental right protected by the
Constitution of the United States of America that should not be taken
lightly. Individuals and groups generally have the right to actively
and legally support those causes in which they believe. Many
protesters and political activist groups have used cyberspace to
organize and advance their memberships and activities. Using computers
and the Internet has greatly increased protesters' effectiveness in
spreading their message and achieving their goals. This paper deals
with past incidents in which cyber protests have led to the
destruction of property and other illegal activities, citing,
specifically, foreign protests.

3. "China-Taiwan Hacker Wars," Jane's Information Group Limited 1999.
Volume 000/2565, 21 October 1999 [online]; available from
http://www.infowar.com/hacker/99/hack_102199a-j.shtml; Internet.

4. Rose Tang, "China-U.S. Cyber War Escalates," 01 May 2001 [online];
available from
http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/east/04/27/china.hackers;
Internet.

5. "Chinese Hackers Concede Defeat in U.S. Hacker War, Call
Cease-fire," Agence France Presse, 10 May 2001.

6. This highlights the fact that although web defacements usually
cause minimal damage, they indicate a very serious breach in security.
A web defacement is, by definition, the manipulation of a web server's
data by gaining unauthorized access to that server. It must be
determined if the hacker installed a back door, introduced malicious
code, or affected the server in any other way. A seemingly low-level
hack could result in future problems if systems administrators do not
take positive actions to stop future intrusions and restore the server
to its previous condition.

7. Larisa Paul, "When Cyber Hacktivism Meets Cyberterrorism," Sans
Institute, 19 February 2001 [online]; available from
http://www.sans.org/infosecFAQ/hackers/terrorism.htm; Internet.

8. "Hacktivists Take Conflict to Internet," Associated Press, 4
November 2000.

9. "Hacktivists Take Conflict to Internet," Associated Press, 4
November 2000.

10. Kaajal Wallia, "Indians, Pakistanis Play Patriotic Games on Net,"
The Times of India, 06 January 2001.

11. Stuart McMillan, "Cyber Attackers Remind Japan of its Infamous
Past," The National Business Review, 2001. 04 April 2001 [online];
available from http://www.infowar.com/hacker/01/hack_040501a_j.shtml;
Internet

12. "Chinese Hackers Attack Japanese Web sites over Shrine Visit,"
Agence France Presse, 14 August 2001.

(end text)



--
| Founder
| Cipherwar: Information Warfare 
| http://www.Cipherwar.com
--

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From baptista at pccf.net  Tue Oct 30 09:48:45 2001
From: baptista at pccf.net (!Dr. Joe Baptista)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 12:48:45 -0500 (EST)
Subject: English Service on Al-Jazeera News (When Mullah Nasreddine
  and Millions Like Him No Longer Trust The Western Media) (fwd)
Message-ID: 


If you can please send email to Al-Jazeera at
marketing-europe at aljazeera.net and show them you are interested in an
english service.  I've attached the correspondence I've had with them
today.

regards
joe

http://www.dot-god.com/
The dot.GOD Registry, Limited

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 12:02:25 -0500 (EST)
From: !Dr. Joe Baptista 
To: Marketing Europe 
Subject: RE: English Service on Al-Jazeera News (When Mullah Nasreddine and
    Millions Like Him No Longer Trust The Western Media)


I would suggest that Al Jazeera's Management consider is a live english
translation service carried over the internet.  You simply broadcast you
video through an existing software product like read video while
providing simultaneous translation in english.  I think that would be more
cost effective and will reach more people then an english service on an
additional satelite transponder.

Many Americans and other westerners are searching for answers and were not
getting much attention from our local broadcasters.  All we end up getting
is propaganda and not much else.

In closing thank you for the consideration you have given my request.

regards
joe baptista

On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, Marketing Europe wrote:

> Dear Mr Baptista,
> 
> Thank you for your kind email and for your interest in Al Jazeera Channel.
> 
> We have forwarded your request for an English service to Al Jazeera's
> Management.
> 
> Al Jazeera is aware of the need for an English service. However, as it is a
> news Channel with most of its coverage transmitted live, it will take some
> time to complete the process.
> 
> This matter is currently under consideration by the Board of Management at
> Al Jazeera and a decision will be made in the near future.
> 
> 
> Many thanks again for your support.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Marketing Europe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: !Dr. Joe Baptista [mailto:baptista at pccf.net]
> Sent: 30 October 2001 14:56
> To: marketing-europe at aljazeera.net
> Subject: Re: English Service on Al-Jazeera News (When Mullah Nasreddine
> and Millions Like Him No Longer Trust The Western Media)
> 
> 
> 
> Hello:
> 
> I for one would very much appreciate english service for Al-Jazeera.  The
> pablum we are fed by western media simply does not cut the mustard.
> 
> regards
> joe baptista
> 
> On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, MSANEWS wrote:
> 
> >
> ____________________________________________________________________________
> >                  __  __________   _  _______      ______
> >                 /  |/  / __/ _ | / |/ / __/ | /| / / __/
> >                / /|_/ /\ \/ __ |/    / _/ | |/ |/ /\ \
> >               /_/  /_/___/_/ |_/_/|_/___/ |__/|__/___/
> >
> >          Support MSANEWS, a project of learning and enlightenment
> >         "A Mind is a Terrible Thing to Waste" -- Martin Luther King
> >
> >         "The Universe is undergoing a complete upheaval... Its
> >         nature is going to change so as to enable its creation
> >                 anew." -- Ibn Khaldun (1332-1406)
> >
> ____________________________________________________________________________
> >
> > Source: Direct Submission
> > Email: amana at ourplace.com
> > To: AMANAvoice at theAMANA.org
> > Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 00:57:16 -0500 (EST)
> > Title: English Service on Al-Jazeera News
> >
> > TEXT:
> >
> > Bismillah Alrahman Alraheem
> >
> > [AL-AWDA-News] and AMANA Request English Service on Al-Jazeera
> > News (please read and act on this correspondence)
> >
> > An article in the LA Times highlights how important it is to
> > have a voice in the Arab world that is free from political
> > manipulation.
> >
> > While this is not directly related to the Palestinian cause, a
> > forum where views about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and its
> > effects on the Arab and Westerns world must be supported.
> >
> > So write to Al-Jazeera giving your support and also to any local
> > papers saying how important a news channel such as Al-Jazeera
> > is.
> >
> > support at aljazeera.net
> > http://www.al-jazeera.com
> >
> > THIS WAS A REPLY POSTED ON AL-AWDA EUROPE:
> >
> > Subj: Re: [AL-AWDA-Europe] Al-Jazeera News
> >
> > Dear Neil,
> >
> > I work for Al Jazeera. We do receive hate mail due to Al
> > Jazeera's coverage of the war in Afghanistan.
> >
> > There has been an enormous increase of the western media's
> > interest in Al Jazeera. We also have a lot of viewers asking for
> > an English service or subtitles. Al Jazeera's Management is
> > considering this matter so it would be very helpful if we get
> > more people asking for an English Service.
> >
> > You can send your support emails and any requests to:
> >
> > marketing-europe at aljazeera.net.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Nibal
> >
> > http://www.myplace.com/ - find what you want @MyPlace.com!
> >
> >
> >
> ____________________________________________________________________________
> >
> >          <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
> >          <>                                        <>
> >          <>  ... On that account: We ordained for  <>
> >          <>  the Children of Israel that if anyone <>
> >          <>  slew a person - unless it be for      <>
> >          <>  murder or for spreading mischief      <>
> >          <>  in the land - it would be as if       <>
> >          <>  he slew the whole people: and if      <>
> >          <>  any one saved a life, it would        <>
> >          <>  be as if he saved the life of         <>
> >          <>  the whole people.                     <>
> >          <>  Holy Qur'an, Surah al-Maidah 5:32.    <>
> >          <>  URL: http://quran.al-islam.com/       <>
> >          <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
> >
> >
> ____________________________________________________________________________
> >
> >          "And the mind - may God preserve you - is more prone to
> >          deep sleep than the eye. Neediest of sharpening
> >          than a sword. Poorest to treatment. Fastest to change.
> >          Its illness, the deadliest. Its doctors, the rarest.
> >          And its cure, the hardest. Whoever got a hold of it, before
> >          the spread of the disease, found his sake. Whoever tried to
> >          wrestle it after the spread would not find his
> >          sake. The greatest purpose of knowledge is the abundance
> >          of inspiring thoughts. Then, the ways to go about one's
> >          needs are met." -- Al-Jahiz ("Puffy"), 9th Century Baghdad,
> >          Kitab at-Tarbi` wat-Tadweer ("Squaring the Circle"), p. 101,
> >          Edited by Prof. Charles Pellat, Institut Francais de
> >          Damas, 1955.
> >
> >          READ THE TEXT, IN THE LANGUAGE OF THE PEOPLE OF THE DESERT,
> >          AT URL: http://msanews.mynet.net/books/ajaib/
> >
> >
> >
> ____________________________________________________________________________
> __
> >                  __  __________   _  _______      ______
> >                 /  |/  / __/ _ | / |/ / __/ | /| / / __/
> >                / /|_/ /\ \/ __ |/    / _/ | |/ |/ /\ \
> >               /_/  /_/___/_/ |_/_/|_/___/ |__/|__/___/
> >
> >        Views expressed on MSANEWS do not necessarily represent
> >        those of the MSANEWS editors, the Ohio State University or
> >        any of our associated staff and "watchers". Further
> >        distribution of material featured on this list may be
> >        restricted. In all cases, please obtain the necessary
> >        permission of the authors or rightful owners before
> >        forwarding any material to or from this list.  This service
> >        is meant for the exchange of analyses and news, for both
> >        academic and activist usage.  We depend on your input.
> >        However, this is not a discussion list.  Thank you.
> >
> >        To subscribe, send e-mail to:
> >         with the message
> >        body "subscribe MSANEWS Firstname Lastname".
> >
> >        To unsubscribe, send e-mail to the above address, with
> >        the message body "unsubscribe MSANEWS".
> >
> >              MSANEWS Home Page:   
> >        Comments to the Editors:   
> >        Submissions for MSANEWS:   
> >     Problems with subscription:   
> >
> >
> ____________________________________________________________________________
> __
> >
> 
> --
> Joe Baptista
> 
> http://www.dot-god.com/
> 
> The dot.GOD Registry, Limited
> The Executive Plaza, Suite 908
> 150 West 51st Street                     Tel: 1 (208) 330-4173
> Manhattan Island NYC 10019 USA           Fax: 1 (208) 293-9773
> 
> 

-- 
Joe Baptista

http://www.dot-god.com/

The dot.GOD Registry, Limited
The Executive Plaza, Suite 908
150 West 51st Street                     Tel: 1 (208) 330-4173
Manhattan Island NYC 10019 USA           Fax: 1 (208) 293-9773




From soenke.zehle at web.de  Tue Oct 30 04:04:16 2001
From: soenke.zehle at web.de (Soenke Zehle)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 13:04:16 +0100
Subject:  New Scientist: Microwave Crowd Dispersal Tested (ADT)
Message-ID: 


http://www.newscientist.com/hottopics/tech/heatison.jsp

New Scientist.com The World's No.1 Science & Technology News Service

Microwave beam weapon to disperse crowds

19:00   24  October  01 Jeff Hecht, Boston

Tests of a controversial weapon that is designed to heat people's skin
with a microwave beam have shown that it can disperse crowds. But critics
are not convinced the system is safe.

Last week, the Air Force Research Laboratory (AFRL) in New Mexico finished
testing the system on human volunteers. The Air Force now wants to use
this Active Denial Technology (ADT), which it says is non-lethal, for
peacekeeping or riot control at "relatively long range" - possibly from
low-flying aircraft.

ADT uses a 2-metre dish to create a narrow beam of microwaves that can be
scanned across a crowd or even aimed at individuals. AFRL is using
infrared photography to analyse the heating effect on the volunteers'
bodies.

AFRL says that the 3-millimetre wavelength radiation penetrates only 0.3
millimetres into the skin, rapidly heating the surface above the 45 �C
pain threshold. At 50 �C, they say the pain reflex makes people pull away
automatically in less than a second - it's said to feel like fleetingly
touching a hot light bulb. Someone would have to stay in the beam for 250
seconds before it burnt the skin, the lab says, giving "ample margin
between intolerable pain and causing a burn".


Little data

But critics question the AFRL's claims that the weapon's undisclosed
exposure levels are safe. John Pike of think tank Globalsecurity.org fears
that the beam power needed to scare people may be too close to the level
that would injure them. Air Force scientists helped set the present skin
safety threshold of 10 milliwatts per square centimetre in the early
1990s, when little data was available, says Louis Slesin, editor of
Microwave News.

That limit covers exposure to steady fields for several minutes to an hour
- but heating a layer of skin 0.3 mm thick to 50 �C in just one second
requires much higher power and may pose risks to the cornea, which is more
sensitive than skin. A study published last year in the journal Health
Physics showed that exposure to 2 watts per square centimetre for three
seconds could damage the corneas of rhesus monkeys.

19:00 24 October 01





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From hakkin at sarin.com  Tue Oct 30 13:13:10 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 13:13:10 -0800
Subject: Quarantines, hospital seizures: Powergrab 2001
Message-ID: <3BDF17E6.9B71927F@sarin.com>


Tuesday October 30 3:35 PM ET

        Proposed New Bioterrorism Law Prepares for
        Worst

        By Maggie Fox, Health and Science Correspondent

        WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A model bioterrorism law being
distributed to U.S. states
        and territories would help them prepare for the worst by
clearing up a confusing mass
        of antiquated rules and powers, legal experts said on Tuesday.

        Drafted at the behest of the Department of Health and Human
Services (news - web
        sites) and with the help of the Centers for Disease Control and
Prevention (news -
        web sites), the new law proposes ways to legally quarantine
people, confiscate
        hospitals and get quick information to doctors in case of a
bioterror attack.

States are being urged to use the law, published on the Internet at
        http://www.publichealthlaw.net, either as a template or to patch
holes in their own
        measures.

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011030/sc/attack_anthrax_law_dc_1.html




From roy at scytale.com  Tue Oct 30 11:49:37 2001
From: roy at scytale.com (Roy M. Silvernail)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 13:49:37 -0600
Subject: The Password Spy
In-Reply-To: <3BDEED42.D15305CC@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <3BDEAFF1.20295.7004CD@localhost>


On 30 Oct 2001, at 10:11, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote:

> "Roy M. Silvernail"  wrote :

> >BTW, I'm looking for a convenient method to intercept data to/from a
> >serial port.  Got a piece of hardware I'm trying to reverse-
> >engineer, and I'd rather avoid writing a custom serial driver.  Any
> >ideas?
> >
> If you're running an open source OS on one of the machines under test
> you should be able to add logging to the driver. Maybe log to a buffer
> instead of disk and retrieve the buffer from a simple app.

Good idea, but the RE target is proprietary hardware and a 
Windows-only client application.

> Alternatively, you could probably just add a 3rd party to the setup
> and use one serial port Rx to snoop each Tx ( Pins 2 & 3 ). The
> chances are that one driver could drive the two receivers. Just
> timestamp what you read and log it. If there is concurrent exchange
> you might want to use two separate logfiles. If the parties are
> politely taking turns one logfile is fine and easier to read. This
> requires a fairly simple application instead of driver level work.

I wanted to avoid investing in a serial snooper hardware rig (though 
those are very handy... had one at my last job).  As it happens, 
www.sysinternals.com has just what I need:

http://www.sysinternals.com/ntw2k/freeware/portmon.shtml


--
Roy M. Silvernail
Proprietor, scytale.com
roy at scytale.com




From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Tue Oct 30 14:40:09 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 14:40:09 -0800
Subject: Transperancy Spray?
In-Reply-To: <3BDEF0B2.42B0E2EB@lsil.com>; from mmotyka@lsil.com on Tue,
  Oct 30, 2001 at 10:25:54AM -0800
References: <3BDEF0B2.42B0E2EB@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <20011030144008.J14098@navel.introspect>


on Tue, Oct 30, 2001 at 10:25:54AM -0800, mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
wrote:
> >> Well, I was watching CNN and it looks like the Postal workers now are
> >> armed with a new weapon.. Against terror of course.  THe whole cant read
> >> someone elses mail thing is out the window it looks like, they can spray
> >> this go on the letter and read through the envelope..  It seems
> >> implausable but its CNN, they dont lie right? well ANYWAYS, I now have a
> >> nice stash of black construction paper...

> Yes, that would work nicely as the outside sheet.

Or "security" envelopes, possibly.

> >    "You spray it on and it temporarily makes the envelope clear," said
> >    Robert Schlegel, vice-president of the makers, Mistral Security, of
> >    Maryland. "It leaves an odor for 10 to 15 minutes, but there is no
> >    smudging of ink, no stain, no evidence at all. The envelope is
> >    transparent for a few minutes and you can respray it hundreds of
> >    times without leaving any stain."

> I would bet that there is SOMETHING that is dissolved by liquid freon.
> Just mark your letters with the stuff and look for the integrity of the
> mark at the other end.

First, is that what this spray is?  Any information on the chemical
composition?

Freon's pretty chemically inert.  That's among its advantages, though
it's a liability in the upper atmosphere.  Other options might be some
indicator that notes a rapid change in temperature (evaporating
refrigerant does a nice job of lowering temperature quickly), or
presence of a fluid.  Even a nonreactive chemical could float something
loosely applied to a letter.

Peace.

--
Karsten M. Self        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?             Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Tue Oct 30 14:51:15 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 14:51:15 -0800
Subject: Transperancy Spray?
In-Reply-To: <3BDEF0B2.42B0E2EB@lsil.com>
Message-ID: 


Mike [mmotyka at lsil.com] wrote:

> I would bet that there is SOMETHING that
> is dissolved by liquid freon. Just mark
> your letters with the stuff and look for
> the integrity of the mark at the other end.

Or... is there something that REACTS to freon in an interesting way...?


 S a n d y




From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Tue Oct 30 14:59:26 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 14:59:26 -0800
Subject: Napster execs needing culling
In-Reply-To: <3BDEB9D5.A9EBDF3E@sarin.com>; from hakkin@sarin.com on
  Tue, Oct 30, 2001 at 06:31:49AM -0800
References: <3BDEB9D5.A9EBDF3E@sarin.com>
Message-ID: <20011030145926.K14098@navel.introspect>


on Tue, Oct 30, 2001 at 06:31:49AM -0800, Khoder bin Hakkin (hakkin at sarin.com)
wrote:

> Compulsory licensing = theft, buddy.

Misappropriation, not theft.  These aren't material goods.  You might
also read the Wind Done Gone ruling and reexamine exlusive rights to see
what you own under copyright in a work -- hint:  it's not the work.

I'd also recommend for reading 17 USC 115, "Scope of exclusive rights in
nondramatic musical works: Compulsory license for making and
distributing phonorecords", providing for compulsory licensing for
distribution and making arrangements (covers) of a work.

    http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/115.text.html

Peace.

--
Karsten M. Self        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?             Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]




From declan at well.com  Tue Oct 30 15:17:54 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 15:17:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Military proclaims "warrior spirit" year
Message-ID: 


http://www.transcom.mil/pa/body.cfm?relnumber=011029-1
AMC proclaims fiscal year 2002 'Year of the Warrior Spirit' 




From mati99 at interklub.pl  Tue Oct 30 07:18:03 2001
From: mati99 at interklub.pl (Mateusz Ziolek)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 16:18:03 +0100 (CET)
Subject: remove
In-Reply-To: <200110301306.NAA75088@s0215.pm0.net>
Message-ID: 






From reeza at hawaii.rr.com  Tue Oct 30 18:29:57 2001
From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 16:29:57 -1000
Subject: Transperancy Spray?
In-Reply-To: <3BDEDAC2.9950.113E5947@localhost>
References: 
 <3BDEF0B2.42B0E2EB@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011030162551.02e4f8c0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com>


At 04:52 PM 10/30/01 -0800, georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote:
>On 30 Oct 2001, at 14:51, Sandy Sandfort wrote:
>
>> Mike [mmotyka at lsil.com] wrote:
>> 
>> > I would bet that there is SOMETHING that
>> > is dissolved by liquid freon. Just mark
>> > your letters with the stuff and look for
>> > the integrity of the mark at the other end.
>> 
>> Or... is there something that REACTS to freon in an interesting way...?
>> 
>> 
>>  S a n d y
>> 
>> 
>I think freon is incredibly inert, that's why it's used.

Heat freon up enough, it turns into phosgene gas (as it breaks down
into simpler components).  The CBR types call that Blood Agent.  
Just think of how carbon monoxide supplants oxygen in your red blood 
cells, that's what phosgene gas does.  I do not seem to remember the 
critical temperature but a lit cigarette will do it.

Reese




From reeza at hawaii.rr.com  Tue Oct 30 18:32:16 2001
From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 16:32:16 -1000
Subject: Transperancy Spray?
In-Reply-To: <3BDF5C72.27E822F9@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011030163000.02c6f2c0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com>


At 06:05 PM 10/30/01 -0800, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote:
>georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote :

>>I think freon is incredibly inert, that's why it's used.
>>
>Since there are so many ways to protect the contents of the message the
>freon topic is not all that interesting. It would be mildly amusing if
>there were a way to detect that freon had been used on a piece of paper.
>I would guess that it could be done by either finding an "ink" that was
>dissolved by freon or some other material that would sit happily in
>place until lifted and dispersed.
>
>http://solvdb.ncms.org/syn01.htm a fun solvents database - not too
>useful here
>
>http://www.redwop.com/technotes.asp?ID=107 not really relevant but
>interesting
>
>Freon seems to be ( or have been ) used mostly for degreasing.

It was, now it is being phased out because freon is damaging to the
ozone layer.  Try locating some R-12 for your automotive a/c system,
time was you could buy little 12 oz bottles in do-it-yourself kits
at every corner parts store.

Reese






From verba at rol.it  Tue Oct 30 07:44:48 2001
From: verba at rol.it (verba at rol.it)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 16:44:48 +0100
Subject: Verba Volant del 30-10-01
Message-ID: <1004460289@web2bk.logos.it>


Verba Volant del 30-10-01,
Every day a new quotation translated into many languages. 

Logos Translations - www.logostranslations.com 
_________________

Quotation of the day:
Author - H.B. Monnier
http://www.logos.it/bio/h_b_monnier.html

English - it is my opinion, and I share it
Italian - � la mia opinione, e la condivido
Spanish - es mi opini�n, y la comparto
French - c'est mon opinion, et je la partage
Portuguese - � a minha opini�o, e partilho-a
German - es ist meine Meinung und ich teile sie
Hungarian - ez a v�lem�nyem, �s ezt osztom is
Finnish - se on minun mielipiteeni, ja kannatan sit�
Catalan - �s la meva opini� i jo la comparteixo
Croatian - to je moje miljenje i sa njim se slaem
Czech - je to muj n�zor a j� se o nej podel�m
Dutch - het is mijn mening, en il deel haar
Emiliano-Romagnolo - l'� e' mi giodizi, e a so d'incord
Furlan - 'e j� la m� impinion, e la cundiv�t
Latin - mea sententia est, et eam communico
Latvian; Lettish - tas ir manas domas, un es tam piekritu
Occitan - es mon opinion, e siu d'ac�rd
Polish - to moja opinia i podzielam ja
Romanian - este opinia mea, si eu o �mpartasesc
Slovak - je to m�j n�zor a zdielam ho s in�mi
Venetian - la xe la me opinion, e so d'acordo
Sicilian - i� 'a me' 'pinioni, e sugnu d' accordu
Flemish - het is mijn mening, en il deel haar
Calabrese - e' u pareri miu e lu cundividu
Reggiano - m� la p�ins acs�. E e sun d'acordi meg
Ferrarese - l'� la mi� upinion, e a la cundivid
Bolognese - l�� la m� upign�n, e a s�n d ac�rd 

_________________

All languages, please click on this link
http://www.rol.it/owa-k/press.frasiproc.carica?code=432
_________________

To unsubscribe from Verba Volant, please follow this link:
http://www.rol.it/owa-k/press.rol_ml.verbavolant

and write in the empty field next to unsubscribe the email address that you find after "TO:" in the Verba Volant emails 
alternatively write to the following address: unsubscribe_volant at rol.it always copying the EMAIL address written after "TO:"




From georgemw at speakeasy.net  Tue Oct 30 16:52:18 2001
From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 16:52:18 -0800
Subject: Transperancy Spray?
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3BDEF0B2.42B0E2EB@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <3BDEDAC2.9950.113E5947@localhost>


On 30 Oct 2001, at 14:51, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

> Mike [mmotyka at lsil.com] wrote:
> 
> > I would bet that there is SOMETHING that
> > is dissolved by liquid freon. Just mark
> > your letters with the stuff and look for
> > the integrity of the mark at the other end.
> 
> Or... is there something that REACTS to freon in an interesting way...?
> 
> 
>  S a n d y
> 
> 
I think freon is incredibly inert, that's why it's used.

My impression is that virtually any transparent
liquid will do a reasonable job of making the envelope transparent,
but the considerations are that you'd want something that doesn't
leave a residue and won'tr make the ink run.  

I believe that paper is white for the reason that snow is (as opposed 
to the reason that titanium oxide is), that is, you've got a bunch of 
surfaces where the index of refraction changes significantly from 
that of air and there's a chance of reflection at each surface, but the
actual paper fibers are transparent.  The liquid you spray on is
filling in the gaps with something with an index of refraction much
closer to that of the paper fibers. 

Pretty sure that's more or less how they work.  Definately there's
no chemical reaction going on.

George  




From melliott at ncsa.uiuc.edu  Tue Oct 30 14:53:18 2001
From: melliott at ncsa.uiuc.edu (Matt Elliott)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 16:53:18 -0600
Subject: Transperancy Spray?
In-Reply-To: <20011030144008.J14098@navel.introspect>
References: <3BDEF0B2.42B0E2EB@lsil.com>
  <20011030144008.J14098@navel.introspect>
Message-ID: 


At 14:40 -0800 10/30/01, Karsten M. Self wrote:
>> Yes, that would work nicely as the outside sheet.
>
>Or "security" envelopes, possibly.

I just tried a can of compressed air (upside down so it sprays liquid), It
is really,
1,1,1,2 Tetrafluoroehtane, not air.  But anyway.  It doesn't make a
security envelope transparent but it does for plain old white envelopes.

You can pick the stuff up at Radio Shack if you want to try it out
yourself.  Just be careful not to freeze your hands when the liquid comes
streaming out of the nozzle.




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Tue Oct 30 15:29:58 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 17:29:58 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Napster execs needing culling
In-Reply-To: <20011030113315.A434@weathership.homeport.org>
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, Adam Shostack wrote:

> Perhaps you should expand your analysis to non-excludable goods (those 
> things which, like air, don't get used up).

Air (O2) does get used up. Kill the algea and the trees and see how long
you can breath.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

     The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

                                             Edmund Burke (1784)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From info at hanoijane.net  Tue Oct 30 16:36:05 2001
From: info at hanoijane.net (info at hanoijane.net)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 17:36:05 -0700
Subject: MORE ON HANOI JANE
Message-ID: <200110310041.f9V0fOq53525@taka.swcp.com>

SUPPLEMENTARY PRE-PUBLICATION NOTICE
"AID AND COMFORT": Jane Fonda in North Vietnam

During the Viet Nam war, Jane Fonda journeyed to Hanoi.  She met with senior Communist civilian and military leaders, held press conferences, toured sites of alleged bombing, "interviewed" American prisoners of war, and, most important, made a series of  propaganda  broadcasts.  Did Hanoi Jane commit treason?  By examining her childhood motivations, her radicalization, her POW "audience," her activities in Hanoi, and through a detailed analysis of the American law of treason, "Aid and Comfort": Jane Fonda in North Viet Nam makes the case that more than sufficient evidence existed to indict and convict Hanoi Jane of the crime of treason.  In addition, the book reveals the shocking story of how the House Committee on Internal Security and the United States Department of Justice swept Fonda's conduct under the bureaucratic rug so that she would never be indicted.  The appendix to the book includes the text of all Fonda's broadcasts in North Viet Nam.
 
McFarland & Co. is now accepting pre-publication orders for "Aid and 
Comfort": Jane Fonda in North Viet Nam.  As we announced recently, by visiting www.hanoijane.net you will be able to view the book's cover, a flyer containing information about the book, a pre-publication order form, and ordering information.  HOWEVER, THE PUBLISHER HAS JUST CREATED A DIRECT LINK FROM HANOIJANE.NET TO McFARLAND, ENABLING THOSE WHO WANT TO SUBMIT A PRE-PUBLICATION ORDER TO DO SO WITH "ONE CLICK."

As we said before, we encourage those of you who want this book to succeed to promptly forward this notice to your email lists, and to ask the recipients to promptly forward it to others, and so on down the line.  Also, feel free to print, copy, and distribute the flyer/order form, and ask libraries to purchase "Aid and Comfort."

We cannot stress enough the importance of pre-publication orders.  For one 
thing, they will affect the quantity of the book's first printing.  For 
another, pre-publication orders may influence the publisher's promotional and related efforts on behalf of the book.  Thus, it will be very helpful if those of you who intend to purchase "Aid and Comfort": Jane Fonda in North Viet Nam order it now, and encourage others to do so.

Thanks,
HANK and ERIKA HOLZER

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From info at hanoijane.net  Tue Oct 30 16:48:23 2001
From: info at hanoijane.net (info at hanoijane.net)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 17:48:23 -0700
Subject: MORE ON HANOI JANE
Message-ID: <200110310053.f9V0rWq59797@taka.swcp.com>

SUPPLEMENTARY PRE-PUBLICATION NOTICE
"AID AND COMFORT": Jane Fonda in North Vietnam

During the Viet Nam war, Jane Fonda journeyed to Hanoi.  She met with senior Communist civilian and military leaders, held press conferences, toured sites of alleged bombing, "interviewed" American prisoners of war, and, most important, made a series of  propaganda  broadcasts.  Did Hanoi Jane commit treason?  By examining her childhood motivations, her radicalization, her POW "audience," her activities in Hanoi, and through a detailed analysis of the American law of treason, "Aid and Comfort": Jane Fonda in North Viet Nam makes the case that more than sufficient evidence existed to indict and convict Hanoi Jane of the crime of treason.  In addition, the book reveals the shocking story of how the House Committee on Internal Security and the United States Department of Justice swept Fonda's conduct under the bureaucratic rug so that she would never be indicted.  The appendix to the book includes the text of all Fonda's broadcasts in North Viet Nam.
 
McFarland & Co. is now accepting pre-publication orders for "Aid and 
Comfort": Jane Fonda in North Viet Nam.  As we announced recently, by visiting www.hanoijane.net you will be able to view the book's cover, a flyer containing information about the book, a pre-publication order form, and ordering information.  HOWEVER, THE PUBLISHER HAS JUST CREATED A DIRECT LINK FROM HANOIJANE.NET TO McFARLAND, ENABLING THOSE WHO WANT TO SUBMIT A PRE-PUBLICATION ORDER TO DO SO WITH "ONE CLICK."

As we said before, we encourage those of you who want this book to succeed to promptly forward this notice to your email lists, and to ask the recipients to promptly forward it to others, and so on down the line.  Also, feel free to print, copy, and distribute the flyer/order form, and ask libraries to purchase "Aid and Comfort."

We cannot stress enough the importance of pre-publication orders.  For one 
thing, they will affect the quantity of the book's first printing.  For 
another, pre-publication orders may influence the publisher's promotional and related efforts on behalf of the book.  Thus, it will be very helpful if those of you who intend to purchase "Aid and Comfort": Jane Fonda in North Viet Nam order it now, and encourage others to do so.

Thanks,
HANK and ERIKA HOLZER

-------------- next part --------------
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From mmotyka at lsil.com  Tue Oct 30 18:05:38 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 18:05:38 -0800
Subject: Transperancy Spray?
Message-ID: <3BDF5C72.27E822F9@lsil.com>


georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote :
>On 30 Oct 2001, at 14:51, Sandy Sandfort wrote:
>
>> Mike [mmotyka at lsil.com] wrote:
>> 
>> > I would bet that there is SOMETHING that
>> > is dissolved by liquid freon. Just mark
>> > your letters with the stuff and look for
>> > the integrity of the mark at the other end.
>> 
>> Or... is there something that REACTS to freon in an interesting way...?
>> 
>> 
>>  S a n d y
>> 
>> 
>I think freon is incredibly inert, that's why it's used.
>
Since there are so many ways to protect the contents of the message the
freon topic is not all that interesting. It would be mildly amusing if
there were a way to detect that freon had been used on a piece of paper.
I would guess that it could be done by either finding an "ink" that was
dissolved by freon or some other material that would sit happily in
place until lifted and dispersed.

http://solvdb.ncms.org/syn01.htm a fun solvents database - not too
useful here

http://www.redwop.com/technotes.asp?ID=107 not really relevant but
interesting

Freon seems to be ( or have been ) used mostly for degreasing. Could you
make some sort of nondrying oil-based marker that would blur or weaken
when drenched with freon? Probably. Buy some raw artist's pigment and
mill it with a non-drying grease that is too thick to migrate
appreciably over the time period of interest when applied to paper.
Wetting with solvent would probably cause damage to a mark.

Mike


>My impression is that virtually any transparent
>liquid will do a reasonable job of making the envelope transparent,
>but the considerations are that you'd want something that doesn't
>leave a residue and won'tr make the ink run.  
>
>I believe that paper is white for the reason that snow is (as opposed 
>to the reason that titanium oxide is), that is, you've got a bunch of 
>surfaces where the index of refraction changes significantly from 
>that of air and there's a chance of reflection at each surface, but the
>actual paper fibers are transparent.  The liquid you spray on is
>filling in the gaps with something with an index of refraction much
>closer to that of the paper fibers. 
>
>Pretty sure that's more or less how they work.  Definately there's
>no chemical reaction going on.
>
Sounds like a good explanation.

>George  




From declan at well.com  Tue Oct 30 15:36:04 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 18:36:04 -0500
Subject: Napster execs needing culling
In-Reply-To: <20011030145926.K14098@navel.introspect>; from
  kmself@ix.netcom.com on Tue, Oct 30, 2001 at 02:59:26PM -0800
References: <3BDEB9D5.A9EBDF3E@sarin.com>
  <20011030145926.K14098@navel.introspect>
Message-ID: <20011030183604.A14041@cluebot.com>


On Tue, Oct 30, 2001 at 02:59:26PM -0800, Karsten M. Self wrote:
> on Tue, Oct 30, 2001 at 06:31:49AM -0800, Khoder bin Hakkin (hakkin at sarin.com)
> wrote:
> 
> > Compulsory licensing = theft, buddy.
> 
> Misappropriation, not theft.  These aren't material goods.  You might
> also read the Wind Done Gone ruling and reexamine exlusive rights to see
> what you own under copyright in a work -- hint:  it's not the work.

It all depends on your view of intellectual property.

I license photos to news organizations and other publishers. I've
licensed about $250 worth of them in three (admittedly relatively
low-value each) transactions today. If forced by the government to
license my photos at a certain rate, in principle I wouldn't be
thrilled. In practice it would depend on the per-photo rate, but
somehow I think I can do a better job of negotiating on my own. Also I
would not expect to be able to influence the Copyright Office to see
things my way in the first place.

-Declan




From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Tue Oct 30 18:36:41 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 18:36:41 -0800
Subject: NOTAM:  GA prohibited w/in 10 miles of nuke plants
Message-ID: <20011030183641.A20647@navel.introspect>


Copied from a friend, generally reliable.  NOTAMs are eventually posted
to a few publicly available sites:

    !FDC 1/1763 FDC PART 1 OF 6 TEMPORARY FLIGHT RESTRICTIONS OVER
    NUCLEAR SITES. FOR REASONS OF NATIONAL SECURITY. EFFECTIVE
    IMMEDIATELY UNTIL NOVEMBER 07, 2001 0500 UTC. PURSUANT TO TITLE 14
    CFR SECTIONS 91.139, EMERGENCY AIR TRAFFIC RULES AND 99.7 SPECIAL
    SECURITY INSTRUCTIONS. ALL GENERAL AVIATION FLIGHT OPERATIONS ARE
    PROHIBITED WITHIN A 10 NAUTICAL MILES RADIUS OF AND BELOW 18000 FEET
    MSL OVER THE BELOW LISTED NUCLEAR SITES EXCEPT FOR MEDEVAC, LAW
    ENFORCEMENT, RESCUE/RECOVERY, EMERGENCY EVACUATION AND FIRE FIGHTING
    OPERATIONS WHEN AUTHORIZED BY ATC:

He continues:

    I've got no idea what the hell they're doing, but damn, a GA plane
    wouldn't do more than scratch the friggen concrete on a nuke plant.

    (It was wondered what a plane crash would do, so a F-4 Phantom II
    was rammed into a containment wall at 600+ MPH, it penetrated 2.5
    inches. (Its a 6 foot wall).

    Grrrr. Insane restrictions. Bullyboys in uniforms pushing around,
    people held illegally.

Sounds like the feds are treating the current "credible threat" as broad
and shutting down all options.  Anyone care to posit a scenario in which
GA could threaten a nuke?

Peace.

--
Karsten M. Self        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?             Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]




From Ignacio.Lazaro at quierotv.com  Tue Oct 30 10:51:08 2001
From: Ignacio.Lazaro at quierotv.com (Ignacio.Lazaro at quierotv.com)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 19:51:08 +0100
Subject: remove
Message-ID: 





From dds711 at bellsouth.net  Tue Oct 30 19:54:07 2001
From: dds711 at bellsouth.net (dds711 at bellsouth.net)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 19:54:07
Subject: MUST READ!!!!!!!!!!!
Message-ID: <200110310106.TAA16238@einstein.ssz.com>


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==================================================
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==================================================
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each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than what 
is
instructed below in step '' 1 through 6 '' or you will loose out on the
majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you 
will also see how
it does not work if you change it. Remember, this method has been 
tested, and
if you alter it, it will NOT work !!! People have tried to put their
friends/relatives names on all five thinking they could get all the 
money.
But it does not work this way. Believe us, some have tried to be greedy 
and then nothing
happened. So Do Not try to change anything other than what is 
instructed.
Because if you do, it will not work for you. Remember, honesty reaps 
the reward!!!
This IS a legitimate BUSINESS. You are offering a product for sale and 
getting paid
for it. Treat it as such and you will be VERY profitable in a short 
period of time.

1.. After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and
REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This person has
made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune.

2..Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5.

3.. Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4.

4.. Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3.

5.. Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2

6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position.

PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! This is
critical to YOUR success.

==================================================
**** Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save
it on your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES.

Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose any data. To 
assist
you with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you
purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing information which
includes how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of 
free classified
ads and much more. There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture 
going:

METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY
==================================================

Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and 
we
will assume You and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each.
Let's also assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% (2/10 of 1%)
response (the response could be much better but lets just say it is 
only 0.2%). Also many
people will send out hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 
5,000 each).
Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails.

With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for report # 1. Those 10
people responded by sending out 5,000 e-mail each for a total of 
50,000.
Out of
those 50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders. That's=100 people
responded and ordered Report # 2.

Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500,000
e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report # 3.

Those 1000 people send 5,000 e-mail each for a total of 5 million
e-mail sent out. The 0.2% response is 10,000 orders for Report # 4.

Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 
50,000,000
(50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for
Report # 5.

THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH = $500,000.00 (half a million 
dollars).

Your total income in this example is: 1..... $50 + 2..... $500 + 3.....
$5,000 + 4..... $50,000 + 5.... $500,000 .... Grand Total=$555,550.00

NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE OUT THE
WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU
WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY!
==================================================

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF
5,000 YOU MAILED TO. Dare to think for a moment what would happen if
everyone or half or even one 4th of those people mailed 100,000 e-mails 
each or more?
There are over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide and 
counting, with
thousands more coming on line every day. Believe me, many people will 
do just that,
and more!

METHOD # 2: BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET
==================================================

Advertising on the net is very, very inexpensive and there are hundreds
of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the Internet 
will
easily get a larger response. We strongly suggest you start with Method 
# 1
and add METHOD #2 as you go along. For every $5 you receive, all you 
must do is
e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it. Always provide same day 
service on all orders.

This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and
address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they
receive the report.

===========AVAILABLE REPORTS ====================
The reason for the "cash" is not because this is illegal or somehow
"wrong". It is simply about time. Time for checks or credit cards to be
cleared or approved, etc. Concealing it is simply so no one can SEE 
there is money in
the envelope and steal it before it gets to you.

ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: Always send $5
cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT accepted. Make sure 
the
cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper. On one 
of those
sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are 
ordering, YOUR
E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address.

PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW :
==================================================
REPORT# 1: 'The Insider's Guide To Advertising for Free On The Net

Order Report #1 from

D.D. Stranton
510 S.W. 168th terrace
Weston, FL   33326
________________________________________________________

REPORT # 2: The Insider's Guide To Sending Bulk Email On The Net

Order Report # 2 from:

Micah Childers
6212 20th AVE  NW
Seattle, WA  98107
USA

_________________________________________________________________

REPORT # 3: Secret To Multilevel Marketing On The Net

Order Report # 3 from :

Rene Frisen
PMB 15329
10501 Gateway West
El Paso, Texas      79925


______________________________________________________

REPORT # 4: How To Become A Millionaire Using MLM & The Net

Order Report # 4 from:

J.H.
12038 Van Gogh Drive
El Paso, Texas   79936


_______________________________________________________

REPORT #5: How To Send Out One Million Emails For Free

Order Report # 5 From:

Scott Katip
3110 5th Ave
Beaver Falls, PA 15010 

_____________________________________________________
$$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$

Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:

=== If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2
weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do.

=== After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you 
should
receive 100 orders or more for REPORT # 2. If you did not, continue
advertising or sending e-mails until you do.

**Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU CAN
RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will
continue
to roll in ! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is 
moved
down on the list, you are placed in front of a Different report.

You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are
ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER
BATCH OF E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT
to the income you can generate from this business !!!
=================================================
FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: You have
just received information that can give you financial freedom for the 
rest
of your
life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more 
money
in the next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. Follow 
the program
EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any way. It works 
exceedingly well as it
is now.

Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put 
your
name and address in Report #1 and moved others to #2 .....# 5 as 
instructed
above. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 ormore
e-mails and your name will be on every one of them. Remember though, 
the more you
send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I 
have given you
the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially
independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW !
=============MORE TESTIMONIALS===============
'' My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an
accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money.
When I received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving ''junk
mail''. I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the 
population and
percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored 
my
supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in with both feet. 
I made
merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old ''I told you so'' on 
her
when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks 
she had
received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received total $ 
147,200.00
........ all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jodyin her ''hobby''.
Mitchell Wolf M.D., Chicago, Illinois
================================================
'' Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my
mind to participate in this plan. But conservative as I am, I decided 
that
the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I 
wouldn't
get enough orders to at least get my money back''. '' I was surprised 
when I
found my medium size post office box crammed with orders. I made 
$319,210.00 in
the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that it does not
matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a 
faster return
and so big''. Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada
=================================================
'' I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I 
wondered
if I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to 
contact to
get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by 
someone
else.........11 months passed then it luckily came again...... I did 
not
delete this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the
money came within 22 weeks''. Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y.
=================================================
'' It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with
little cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully and
within 10 days the money started to come in. My first month I made $ 
20,
560.00 and by the end of third month my total cash count was $ 
362,840.00. Life is
beautiful, Thanx to internet''. Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand
=================================================

ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO
FINANCIAL
FREEDOM !
If you have any questions regarding this great deal please write me at
yourreports at ziplip.com
If you wish to be removed from the mailing list please send an email to
removemeplease at ziplip.com with the word REMOVE in the subject line.
=================================================
If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the
Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade
Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C.

=================================================

ONE TIME MAILING, NO NEED TO REMOVE

=================================================

This message is sent in compliance of the proposed bill SECTION 301,
paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618. Further transmission to you by the 
sender
of this email may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply to:
removemeplease at ziplip.com with the word REMOVE in the subject line. 




From dds711 at bellsouth.net  Tue Oct 30 19:54:10 2001
From: dds711 at bellsouth.net (dds711 at bellsouth.net)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 19:54:10
Subject: MUST READ!!!!!!!!!!!
Message-ID: <200110310106.TAA16239@einstein.ssz.com>


If you're sick of scams, then read this, and do what it says.

Dear Future Millionaire:

I'll make you a promise. READ THIS E-MAIL TO THE END! - follow what it
says to the letter - and you will not worry whether a RECESSION is 
coming
or not, who is President, or whether you keep your current job or not. 
Yes, I know
what you are thinking. I never responded to one of these before either. 
One day
though, something just said "you throw away $25.00 going to a movie for 
2
hours with your wife". "What the heck." Believe me, no matter where you 
believe
"those feelings" come from, I thank goodness every day that I had that 
feeling.
I cannot imagine where I would be or what I would be doing had I not. 
Read
on. It's true. Every word of it. It is legal. I checked. Simply 
because
you are buying and selling something of value.

AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV:

Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your home.

THANK'S TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET!
==================================================
BE AN INTERNET MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!!

Before you say ''Bull'', please read the following. This is the letter
you have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the popularity 
of
this letter on the Internet, a national weekly news program recently 
devoted
an entire show to the investigation of this program described below, to 
see if it
really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or not 
the
program was legal.

Their findings proved once and for all that there are ''absolutely NO
Laws prohibiting the participation in the program and if people can 
"follow
the simple instruction" they are bound to make some mega bucks with 
only
$25 out of pocket cost''.
DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS
PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER.

This is what one had to say: '' Thanks to this profitable opportunity". 
I
was approached many times before but each time I passed on it. I am so 
glad
I finally joined just to see what one could expect in return for the
minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received a 
total $
610,470.00 in 21 weeks, with money still coming in''. Pam Hedland, Fort
Lee, New Jersey.
==================================================
Another said: "this program has been around for a long time but I never
believed in it. But one day when I received this again in the mail I
decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the simple instructions and
walaa ..... 3 weeks later the money started to come in. First month I 
only made $240.00
but the next 2 months after that I made a total of $290,000.00. So far, 
in the
past 8 months by re-entering the program, I have made over $710,000.00 
and I am
playing it again. The key to success in this program is to follow the 
simple steps
and NOT change anything.'' More testimonials later but first, =======

==== PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE ====
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months easily
and comfortably, please read the following...THEN READ IT AGAIN and 
AGAIN
!!!

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS
WILL COME TRUE, GUARANTEED!

INSTRUCTIONS:

=====Order all 5 reports shown on the list below =====

For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU
ARE ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name appears
ON THAT LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON
YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems.

===WHEN YOU PLACE YOUR ORDER, MAKE SURE ===
===YOU ORDER EACH OF THE 5 REPORTS! ===
You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computer
and resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5 = $25.00.

Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the 5 reports
from these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer so they 
will
be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order 
them
from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it on your desk 
in case
something happens to your computer.

IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to
each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than what 
is
instructed below in step '' 1 through 6 '' or you will loose out on the
majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you 
will also see how
it does not work if you change it. Remember, this method has been 
tested, and
if you alter it, it will NOT work !!! People have tried to put their
friends/relatives names on all five thinking they could get all the 
money.
But it does not work this way. Believe us, some have tried to be greedy 
and then nothing
happened. So Do Not try to change anything other than what is 
instructed.
Because if you do, it will not work for you. Remember, honesty reaps 
the reward!!!
This IS a legitimate BUSINESS. You are offering a product for sale and 
getting paid
for it. Treat it as such and you will be VERY profitable in a short 
period of time.

1.. After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and
REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This person has
made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune.

2..Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5.

3.. Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4.

4.. Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3.

5.. Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2

6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position.

PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! This is
critical to YOUR success.

==================================================
**** Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save
it on your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES.

Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose any data. To 
assist
you with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you
purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing information which
includes how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of 
free classified
ads and much more. There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture 
going:

METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY
==================================================

Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and 
we
will assume You and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each.
Let's also assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% (2/10 of 1%)
response (the response could be much better but lets just say it is 
only 0.2%). Also many
people will send out hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 
5,000 each).
Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails.

With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for report # 1. Those 10
people responded by sending out 5,000 e-mail each for a total of 
50,000.
Out of
those 50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders. That's=100 people
responded and ordered Report # 2.

Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500,000
e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report # 3.

Those 1000 people send 5,000 e-mail each for a total of 5 million
e-mail sent out. The 0.2% response is 10,000 orders for Report # 4.

Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 
50,000,000
(50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for
Report # 5.

THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH = $500,000.00 (half a million 
dollars).

Your total income in this example is: 1..... $50 + 2..... $500 + 3.....
$5,000 + 4..... $50,000 + 5.... $500,000 .... Grand Total=$555,550.00

NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE OUT THE
WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU
WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY!
==================================================

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF
5,000 YOU MAILED TO. Dare to think for a moment what would happen if
everyone or half or even one 4th of those people mailed 100,000 e-mails 
each or more?
There are over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide and 
counting, with
thousands more coming on line every day. Believe me, many people will 
do just that,
and more!

METHOD # 2: BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET
==================================================

Advertising on the net is very, very inexpensive and there are hundreds
of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the Internet 
will
easily get a larger response. We strongly suggest you start with Method 
# 1
and add METHOD #2 as you go along. For every $5 you receive, all you 
must do is
e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it. Always provide same day 
service on all orders.

This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and
address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they
receive the report.

===========AVAILABLE REPORTS ====================
The reason for the "cash" is not because this is illegal or somehow
"wrong". It is simply about time. Time for checks or credit cards to be
cleared or approved, etc. Concealing it is simply so no one can SEE 
there is money in
the envelope and steal it before it gets to you.

ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: Always send $5
cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT accepted. Make sure 
the
cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper. On one 
of those
sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are 
ordering, YOUR
E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address.

PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW :
==================================================
REPORT# 1: 'The Insider's Guide To Advertising for Free On The Net

Order Report #1 from

D.D. Stranton
510 S.W. 168th terrace
Weston, FL   33326
________________________________________________________

REPORT # 2: The Insider's Guide To Sending Bulk Email On The Net

Order Report # 2 from:

Micah Childers
6212 20th AVE  NW
Seattle, WA  98107
USA

_________________________________________________________________

REPORT # 3: Secret To Multilevel Marketing On The Net

Order Report # 3 from :

Rene Frisen
PMB 15329
10501 Gateway West
El Paso, Texas      79925


______________________________________________________

REPORT # 4: How To Become A Millionaire Using MLM & The Net

Order Report # 4 from:

J.H.
12038 Van Gogh Drive
El Paso, Texas   79936


_______________________________________________________

REPORT #5: How To Send Out One Million Emails For Free

Order Report # 5 From:

Scott Katip
3110 5th Ave
Beaver Falls, PA 15010 

_____________________________________________________
$$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$

Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:

=== If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2
weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do.

=== After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you 
should
receive 100 orders or more for REPORT # 2. If you did not, continue
advertising or sending e-mails until you do.

**Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU CAN
RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will
continue
to roll in ! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is 
moved
down on the list, you are placed in front of a Different report.

You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are
ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER
BATCH OF E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT
to the income you can generate from this business !!!
=================================================
FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: You have
just received information that can give you financial freedom for the 
rest
of your
life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more 
money
in the next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. Follow 
the program
EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any way. It works 
exceedingly well as it
is now.

Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put 
your
name and address in Report #1 and moved others to #2 .....# 5 as 
instructed
above. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 ormore
e-mails and your name will be on every one of them. Remember though, 
the more you
send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I 
have given you
the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially
independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW !
=============MORE TESTIMONIALS===============
'' My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an
accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money.
When I received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving ''junk
mail''. I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the 
population and
percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored 
my
supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in with both feet. 
I made
merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old ''I told you so'' on 
her
when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks 
she had
received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received total $ 
147,200.00
........ all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jodyin her ''hobby''.
Mitchell Wolf M.D., Chicago, Illinois
================================================
'' Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my
mind to participate in this plan. But conservative as I am, I decided 
that
the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I 
wouldn't
get enough orders to at least get my money back''. '' I was surprised 
when I
found my medium size post office box crammed with orders. I made 
$319,210.00 in
the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that it does not
matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a 
faster return
and so big''. Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada
=================================================
'' I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I 
wondered
if I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to 
contact to
get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by 
someone
else.........11 months passed then it luckily came again...... I did 
not
delete this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the
money came within 22 weeks''. Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y.
=================================================
'' It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with
little cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully and
within 10 days the money started to come in. My first month I made $ 
20,
560.00 and by the end of third month my total cash count was $ 
362,840.00. Life is
beautiful, Thanx to internet''. Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand
=================================================

ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO
FINANCIAL
FREEDOM !
If you have any questions regarding this great deal please write me at
yourreports at ziplip.com
If you wish to be removed from the mailing list please send an email to
removemeplease at ziplip.com with the word REMOVE in the subject line.
=================================================
If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the
Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade
Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C.

=================================================

ONE TIME MAILING, NO NEED TO REMOVE

=================================================

This message is sent in compliance of the proposed bill SECTION 301,
paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618. Further transmission to you by the 
sender
of this email may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply to:
removemeplease at ziplip.com with the word REMOVE in the subject line. 




From lucafosoftware at hotmail.com  Tue Oct 30 10:56:10 2001
From: lucafosoftware at hotmail.com (Lucafo)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 19:56:10 +0100
Subject: Angelfire , Liars
Message-ID: <200110301918.f9UJI0j21649@mailhost.maptel.es>



The staff of Angelfire has decided by their own and with no prior advise to shut down
some websites with thousands of hours of work because they said we were making spam.

that's the adress
http://lucafo.05c.net.

See it by your own , I'm rebuilding what they had broken


Sorry for introducing on your email , we'll try to do it the less posible.

Webmaster
Lucafo




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Oct 30 18:54:09 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 20:54:09 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [ISN] Commentary: The Threat Of Microsofts .Net (fwd)
Message-ID: 




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 12:30:30 -0400
From: "R. A. Hettinga" 
To: Digital Bearer Settlement List , dcsb at ai.mit.edu,
    cryptography at wasabisystems.com, cyberia-l at listserv.aol.com,
    ignition-point at theveryfew.net
Subject: [ISN] Commentary: The Threat Of Microsofts .Net


--- begin forwarded text



From jya at pipeline.com  Tue Oct 30 21:55:02 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 21:55:02 -0800
Subject: NOTAM:  GA prohibited w/in 10 miles of nuke plants
In-Reply-To: <20011030183641.A20647@navel.introspect>
Message-ID: <200110310300.WAA28499@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>


Sure. Don't go for the hard-headed containment structure,
knock out the soft-shelled control facility which regulates
cooling pumps. The reactor will do the rest just as effectively
as planes weakened the towers so they would self-destruct.

It is truely strange that the Pentagon was hit rather than
the soft-shells downtown. Probably a feint or a blunder
by a pilot nearly insane.

Nuclear power plants are likely a feint as well, with so
many soft-shells ready to eat -- refineries, airports,
seaports, suspension bridges, most domestic military
bases, universities, national labs, mega-malls, on and
on, look around you where all the gov-terrified people 
bunch for safety in numbers.

The experts here predict a mid-West target just to freak
the true interior homeland which everyone believes they
can retreat to. Draw a half dozen vectors connecting
the publicized targets and see where they intersect.
That point won't be far from Cheyenne Mountain, not the
hardened bunker but its vulnerable support system -- 
most of which remains identifiable on the Net because 
it is not military or government, you know, the collaterals.




From gbroiles at parrhesia.com  Tue Oct 30 21:56:10 2001
From: gbroiles at parrhesia.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 21:56:10 -0800
Subject: Quarantines, hospital seizures: Powergrab 2001
In-Reply-To: <3BDF17E6.9B71927F@sarin.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011030214555.039365d0@bivens.parrhesia.com>


At 01:13 PM 10/30/2001 -0800, Khoder bin Hakkin wrote:

>         Drafted at the behest of the Department of Health and Human
>Services (news - web
>         sites) and with the help of the Centers for Disease Control and
>Prevention (news -
>         web sites), the new law proposes ways to legally quarantine
>people, confiscate
>         hospitals and get quick information to doctors in case of a
>bioterror attack.

Oh, it goes far beyond that - it creates a system where, upon a governor's 
declaration of a public health emergency, the public health authorities get 
control of all food, guns, medicine, fuel, clothing, medical facilities, 
doctors, and human beings within the affected area - they're entitled to 
immediate possession of   whatever useful private property they want, which 
can be redistributed, held, or destroyed as they see fit - and they're 
empowered to use public safety agencies to force doctors perform 
examinations, tests or vaccinate/immunize similarly uncooperative 
individuals, and to create quarantine or exclusion areas as they consider 
useful.

It's pretty much a police state implementation act.


--
Greg Broiles -- gbroiles at parrhesia.com -- PGP 0x26E4488c or 0x94245961
5000 dead in NYC? National tragedy.
1000 detained incommunicado without trial, expanded surveillance? National 
disgrace.




From drevil at sidereal.kz  Tue Oct 30 15:05:55 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil)
Date: 30 Oct 2001 23:05:55 -0000
Subject: Transperancy Spray?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <20011030230555.26939.qmail@sidereal.kz>


> Or... is there something that REACTS to freon in an interesting way...?

Freon (chloro difloromethane) is pretty inert stuff, as far as I know.
According to the MSDS (Dupont:
http://www.dupont.com/msds/40_37_2008fr.html), it is stable but
"Incompatible with alkali or alkaline earth metals--powdered Al, Zn,
Be, etc."  I'm not sure what "incompatible" means here.  Finely
powdered Al can be pretty reactive stuff, with many things besides
freon.

It's a pretty good organic solvent I would think, so you could easily
find some dye which would disolve in it.  If it disolves easily in
gasoline (or tricholormethane, even better), it would probably also
disolve easily in freon, so you could test some things.  In fact, a
smudge of light grease in the right shape might be able to indicate
that freon has been used.

Maybe we should just stick with email?  Anyway, how often do you think
this stuff is actually used in real life?  Interesting to talk about,
but hardly relevant to anything, I would think.

Btw, are we sure that this spray is just plain old freon?  I looked
around and I couldn't see any hints about the composition of this
spray.




From verba at rol.it  Tue Oct 30 15:11:31 2001
From: verba at rol.it (verba at rol.it)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 00:11:31 +0100
Subject: Verba Volant del 31-10-01
Message-ID: <1004487092@web2bk.logos.it>


Verba Volant del 31-10-01,
Every day a new quotation translated into many languages. 

Logos Translations - www.logostranslations.com 
_________________

Quotation of the day:
Author - Friedrich II. von Preu�en
http://www.logos.it/bio/friedrich_ii_von_preuben.html

English - the Prince is the first servant of his state
Italian - un principe � il primo servitore del suo stato
Spanish - el pr�ncipe es el primero de los siervos en su territorio
French - le Prince est le premier serviteur de l'Etat
Portuguese - o pr�ncipe � o primeiro servo do seu estado
Brazilian Portuguese - o pr�ncipe � o primeiro servo do seu estado
German - der F�rst ist der erste Diener seines Staates
Hungarian - a Herceg �llam�nak az elso szolg�ja
Finnish - prinssi on maansa ensimm�inen palvelija
Catalan - un pr�ncep �s el primer servidor del seu estat
Croatian - jedan princ je prvi sluga svoje dr�ave
Czech - panovn�k je prvn�m slu�ebn�kem sv�ho st�tu
Dutch - een prins is de eerste onderdaan van zijn land
Emiliano-Romagnolo - e' prinzip l'� e proim servidour ad soa nazioun
Furlan - il princip al � il prin servid�r dal so st�t
Latin - princeps primus est qui Rem publicam navat
Latvian; Lettish - firsts ir savas valsts pirmais kalps
Occitan - un prenci es lo premier servent de son estat
Polish - ksiaze jest pierwszym sluga swojego panstwa
Romanian - principele este primul slujitor al poporului sau
Slovak - princ je prv�m slu�obn�kom svojho �t�tu
Venetian - on principe xe el primo servidor del so stato
Sicilian - un principi � 'u primu servu d' 'u so' statu
Flemish - een prins is de eerste onderdaan van zijn land
Calabrese - nu principi � u primu servituri del suo stato
Reggiano - un princip l'� al prem servit�r dal s�o stet
Ferrarese - un pr�nzip l'� al prim servitor dla s� nazzion
Bolognese - al pr�nzip l � l pr�mm sarvit�ur dal s� st�t 

_________________

All languages, please click on this link
http://www.rol.it/owa-k/press.frasiproc.carica?code=433
_________________

To unsubscribe from Verba Volant, please follow this link:
http://www.rol.it/owa-k/press.rol_ml.verbavolant 

and write in the empty field next to unsubscribe the email address that you find after "TO:" in the Verba Volant emails 
alternatively write to the following address: unsubscribe_volant at rol.it always copying the EMAIL address written after "TO:"




From ooosawaddee3 at enjoymail.com  Wed Oct 31 00:53:37 2001
From: ooosawaddee3 at enjoymail.com (OOO S.)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 00:53:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Ask about PDF417 Reed solomon error correction
Message-ID: <20011031085337.F3EDA36F9@sitemail.everyone.net>

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: 

From grocha at neutraldomain.org  Wed Oct 31 04:16:14 2001
From: grocha at neutraldomain.org (Gabriel Rocha)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 04:16:14 -0800
Subject: FBI MAS
In-Reply-To: <200110311158.GAA16716@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>; from
  jya@pipeline.com on Wed, Oct 31, 2001 at 06:52:44AM -0800
References: <200110311158.GAA16716@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20011031041614.F17544@neutraldomain.org>


		On Wed, Oct 31, at 06:52AM, John Young wrote:
| Anybody have information about this FBI operation,
| which siphoned about 1/5 of Cryptome this AM:
| 
|         IP address: 65.207.53.168
| 
|         MAS (NETBLK-UU-65-207-53)
|         935 Pennsylvania Ave NW
|         Washington, DC 20535
|         US
| 
|         Netname: UU-65-207-53
|         Netblock: 65.207.53.0 - 65.207.53.255
| 
|         Coordinator:
|            Dastur, Brian  (BD680-ARIN)  bdastur at fbi.gov
|            202-324-6124
| 
|         Record last updated on 17-Aug-2001.
|         Database last updated on 31-Oct-2001 02:58:21 EDT.
| 
| The siphon drained the site non-stop from 4:01 AM to 4:23 AM EST.

How many mirrors do you have John? 

-- 
Churchill, Winston Leonard Spencer --On the eve of Britain's entry
into World War II:
	"If you will not fight for right when you can easily win 
without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be 
sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will 
have to fight with all odds against you and only a precarious 
chance of survival. There may be even a worse fate. You may have 
to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to 
perish than to live as slaves.




From georgemw at speakeasy.net  Wed Oct 31 06:19:53 2001
From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 06:19:53 -0800
Subject: Transperancy Spray?
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011030162551.02e4f8c0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com>
References: <3BDEDAC2.9950.113E5947@localhost>
Message-ID: <3BDF9809.8159.1421B866@localhost>


On 30 Oct 2001, at 16:29, Reese wrote:

> At 04:52 PM 10/30/01 -0800, georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote:
> >On 30 Oct 2001, at 14:51, Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> >
> >> Mike [mmotyka at lsil.com] wrote:
> >> 
> >> > I would bet that there is SOMETHING that
> >> > is dissolved by liquid freon. Just mark
> >> > your letters with the stuff and look for
> >> > the integrity of the mark at the other end.
> >> 
> >> Or... is there something that REACTS to freon in an interesting way...?
> >> 
> >> 
> >>  S a n d y
> >> 
> >> 
> >I think freon is incredibly inert, that's why it's used.
> 
> Heat freon up enough, it turns into phosgene gas (as it breaks down
> into simpler components).  The CBR types call that Blood Agent.  
> Just think of how carbon monoxide supplants oxygen in your red blood 
> cells, that's what phosgene gas does.  I do not seem to remember the 
> critical temperature but a lit cigarette will do it.
> 
> Reese
> 
> 
Here's a link to the MSDS
http://www.ansul.com/Material_Safety_Data_Sheets/F-85312.pdf
it says above 900 F Freon will decompose into hydrochloric and
hydrofluoric acids.  Doesn't mention phosgene, although you'd
proabably get that if the air was dry enough.

George

George




From jya at pipeline.com  Wed Oct 31 06:52:44 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 06:52:44 -0800
Subject: FBI MAS
Message-ID: <200110311158.GAA16716@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>


Anybody have information about this FBI operation,
which siphoned about 1/5 of Cryptome this AM:

        IP address: 65.207.53.168

        MAS (NETBLK-UU-65-207-53)
        935 Pennsylvania Ave NW
        Washington, DC 20535
        US

        Netname: UU-65-207-53
        Netblock: 65.207.53.0 - 65.207.53.255

        Coordinator:
           Dastur, Brian  (BD680-ARIN)  bdastur at fbi.gov
           202-324-6124

        Record last updated on 17-Aug-2001.
        Database last updated on 31-Oct-2001 02:58:21 EDT.

The siphon drained the site non-stop from 4:01 AM to 4:23 AM EST.




From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Oct 30 12:11:19 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 07:11:19 +1100
Subject: A modest project for all cypherpunks
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011031070114.009f7800@pop.useoz.com>


someone here once said...assume you were being
monitored to see if you "run" with the seeded assassination memes, if only
for analytical purposes. These matters are taken seriously by those charged
with the care of protected persons. (Contrary to what some here would have
you believe, subtlety can get you a much higher threat-rating than overtly
threatening correspondence.)
Lets assume that thats true and all those 'charged' are busty elsewhere;I 
propose a 'guess the death date
lottery' for jeff gordon.I pledge to pay 100 US $ to the person or persons 
unknown who predicts the time the
closest.Heres looking at you kid. 




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From: yar1024 at yahoo.com (==Email Center==)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 07:37:06 -0800
Subject: 50% OFF Targeted E-mail Sale
Message-ID: <200110311338.HAA19877@einstein.ssz.com>


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From gbroiles at well.com  Wed Oct 31 07:47:34 2001
From: gbroiles at well.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 07:47:34 -0800
Subject: Quarantines, hospital seizures: Powergrab 2001
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011031074715.049a3e90@bivens.parrhesia.com>


At 01:13 PM 10/30/2001 -0800, Khoder bin Hakkin wrote:

>         Drafted at the behest of the Department of Health and Human
>Services (news - web
>         sites) and with the help of the Centers for Disease Control and
>Prevention (news -
>         web sites), the new law proposes ways to legally quarantine
>people, confiscate
>         hospitals and get quick information to doctors in case of a
>bioterror attack.

Oh, it goes far beyond that - it creates a system where, upon a governor's 
declaration of a public health emergency, the public health authorities get 
control of all food, guns, medicine, fuel, clothing, medical facilities, 
doctors, and human beings within the affected area - they're entitled to 
immediate possession of   whatever useful private property they want, which 
can be redistributed, held, or destroyed as they see fit - and they're 
empowered to use public safety agencies to force doctors perform 
examinations, tests or vaccinate/immunize similarly uncooperative 
individuals, and to create quarantine or exclusion areas as they consider 
useful.

It's pretty much a police state implementation act.


--
Greg Broiles -- gbroiles at parrhesia.com -- PGP 0x26E4488c or 0x94245961
5000 dead in NYC? National tragedy.
1000 detained incommunicado without trial, expanded surveillance? National 
disgrace.




From grocha at neutraldomain.org  Wed Oct 31 08:18:34 2001
From: grocha at neutraldomain.org (Gabriel Rocha)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 08:18:34 -0800
Subject: FBI MAS
In-Reply-To: <200110311503.KAA19834@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>; from
  jya@pipeline.com on Wed, Oct 31, 2001 at 09:57:45AM -0800
References: <200110311158.GAA16716@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>
  <200110311158.GAA16716@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>
  <20011031041614.F17544@neutraldomain.org>
  <200110311503.KAA19834@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20011031081834.M17544@neutraldomain.org>


		On Wed, Oct 31, at 09:57AM, John Young wrote:
| Mothermary, there's nothing like logs to boost paranoia, and 
| depression that nobody gives a FF except rampaging
| bots endlessly shredding your shaggers and OBB.

In my time I have found that keeping logs of internet activities is
an activity best left for businesses and even then, it can be a
double edged sword. It would be hard to subpena logs I don't
keep...besides, they are nothing but a troublesome waste of space...

-- 
Churchill, Winston Leonard Spencer --On the eve of Britain's entry
into World War II:
	"If you will not fight for right when you can easily win 
without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be 
sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will 
have to fight with all odds against you and only a precarious 
chance of survival. There may be even a worse fate. You may have 
to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to 
perish than to live as slaves.




From hakkin at sarin.com  Wed Oct 31 08:31:20 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 08:31:20 -0800
Subject: NYT DOS'd
Message-ID: <3BE02758.B45167B5@sarin.com>


Tuesday October 30 7:21 PM ET

NY Times Computers Shut Down by Apparent Attack

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Internet connections at the New York Times Co
(NYSE:NYT - news) were interrupted for
several hours on Tuesday afternoon after the paper's computers were
flooded with bogus information in an apparent
attack.

``We don't know that it was malicious, but there seems to be no innocent
explanation,'' wrote network administrator
Terry Schwadron in an e-mail to newsroom employees.

The Times computers ``started receiving a huge amount of electronic
transmission that flooded the machinery that
protects the paper from hacker attacks,'' according to Schwadron's
e-mail, in what he called ``denial of service activity.''

In a denial of service attack, thousands of fake messages are sent to
server computers, tying up the recipient's network.
The main White House Web site (http://www.whitehouse.gov) was hit with a
similar attack in May.

The New York Times Web site (http://www.nytimes.com) was online as of
Tuesday evening.

A spokeswoman for the company, reading a statement, said: ''Some New
York Times employees are experiencing
difficulty accessing the Internet through their computers. Our technical
staff is trying to determine the reason for this. At
this time, we do not know the cause.''

The spokeswoman did confirm the contents of Schwadron's e-mail.

The New York Times has gone through two anthrax scares since Oct. 12,
but tests came up negative for the bacteria.

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/nm/20011030/wr/media_newyorktimes_computers_dc_1.html




From hakkin at sarin.com  Wed Oct 31 08:51:30 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 08:51:30 -0800
Subject: NOTAM: GA prohibited w/in 10 miles of nuke plants 
Message-ID: <3BE02C12.D81CE836@sarin.com>


Quoth John Young:

>>Sure. Don't go for the hard-headed containment structure,
knock out the soft-shelled control facility which regulates
cooling pumps. The reactor will do the rest just as effectively
as planes weakened the towers so they would self-destruct.
...
Nuclear power plants are likely a feint as well, with so
many soft-shells ready to eat<<

The reactors have such a nice chewy center that its
worth it to try to breach the crunchy shell.  Whacking the
cooling or control will take out the power generation[1]
but will not spread the spicy isotopes on the happy fun people.


[1] Creating a power deficit which might not be picked up by the Grid,
and so felt e.g., by Californians during certain seasons.

-------
my cat has a box of bentonite.  should I turn him in?




From hakkin at sarin.com  Wed Oct 31 09:07:38 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:07:38 -0800
Subject: fully transparent systems: Linux on Altera
Message-ID: <3BE02FDA.51565461@sarin.com>


>From Core to Kit  by Mike Esch
How the Nios, a RISC processor on an FPGA, came to
support Linux and the GNU development tools.

alas not online at http://embedded.linuxjournal.com/magazine/issue06/

Basically he boots Linux on a soft cpu ("NIOS") which is implemented
on a reprogrammable logic device (Altera's).  First the Altera
gets configured as a NIOS (plus whatever else you want to put
on there..) then the NIOS boots a Linux build.  NIOS is a
SPARC-like 16 or 32-bit RISC w/out a MMU that Altera sells
for their chips.

Of interest here because if you can't read it you can't trust it; now
you can use GNUtools on a CPU you can read. Also for embedded crypto
system developers in general.


----
#include 




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Wed Oct 31 09:11:23 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:11:23 -0800
Subject: what kind of bomb?
Message-ID: <3BE030BB.2B86312B@lsil.com>


cpaul  wrote :
>Witnesses also said they saw a U.S. plane drop a bomb Tuesday
>at the Bagram front lines, about 25 miles north of Kabul,
>creating a mushroom cloud that billowed at least 1,000 feet
>into the air.
>
>
>http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011030/ts/attacks_afghanistan_549.html
>
A really big one. Still conventional. Besides, a standard-sized one
might have hit a munitions or fuel bunker.

 Hell, a 10 acre tire fire in central California made a "mushroom"
shaped cloud several thousand feet high. 

During Vietnam there were boxcar-sized bombs used to clear an LZ in the
jungle. How many tons? I don't know but they made ~100 yard circle.




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Wed Oct 31 09:18:04 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:18:04 -0800
Subject: FBI MAS
Message-ID: <3BE0324C.73D9B0A1@lsil.com>


Any sense in blacklisting IP ranges and refusing connections?




From jya at pipeline.com  Wed Oct 31 09:57:45 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:57:45 -0800
Subject: FBI MAS
In-Reply-To: <20011031041614.F17544@neutraldomain.org>
References: <200110311158.GAA16716@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>
  <200110311158.GAA16716@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <200110311503.KAA19834@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>


>How many mirrors do you have John? 

Don't know for sure, several recent ones are listed on
the home page. Older ones, and the covert, are not easily
found, but I see a hit from them now and then or a bit
gulp of update.

A few machines come every day to get the latest contents
but no files. I assume those are distributed within networks
or archived or added to the evidence pile. One of MPAA's
law firms does that, and the old loyal customer, NSA
at ncsc.mil. And EOP, DoJ, the Senate, US Courts, jeez, 
don't these folks have surf through SafeWeb or do they not
trust the spy of spies. (Hilarious that SafeWeb was picked
to help dissident Chinese outreach -- right into the CIA's
archives.)

CIA has appeared daily since 911. That's ucia.gov.

That's why the FBI siphon was interesting, seldom do we
see the FBI use an address easily traceable to the agency.

It's interesting to speculate on who are the new, young, 
compwizzes and hackers hired by the TLAs, if they feel 
imprisoned or empowered, if they surf at work to send 
pleas for rescue via ID'd boxes. Could be reconnaissance 
by fire, sending a FNG into the sniper's sight, building logs 
of logs like poisoned packrat jg here.

Mothermary, there's nothing like logs to boost paranoia, and 
depression that nobody gives a FF except rampaging
bots endlessly shredding your shaggers and OBB.




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Wed Oct 31 09:59:22 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:59:22 -0800
Subject: FBI MAS
Message-ID: <3BE03BFA.C46C1105@lsil.com>


OK. Yer an equal opportunity provider. Bandwidth costs money, yes? Ask
the botniks to register and send them automated tgz update packages
monthly, weekly, whatever. Paid protection might be cheaper than being
robbed. Do you accept anonymous donations?




From pcw2 at flyzone.com  Wed Oct 31 07:43:39 2001
From: pcw2 at flyzone.com (Peter Wayner)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 10:43:39 -0500
Subject: FBI MAS
In-Reply-To: <200110311503.KAA19834@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <200110311158.GAA16716@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>
  <200110311158.GAA16716@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>
  <200110311503.KAA19834@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <200110311544.f9VFiQf07066@slack.lne.com>


>A few machines come every day to get the latest contents
>but no files. I assume those are distributed within networks
>or archived or added to the evidence pile. One of MPAA's
>law firms does that, and the old loyal customer, NSA
>at ncsc.mil. And EOP, DoJ, the Senate, US Courts, jeez,
>don't these folks have surf through SafeWeb or do they not
>trust the spy of spies. (Hilarious that SafeWeb was picked
>to help dissident Chinese outreach -- right into the CIA's
>archives.)

I realize the government doesn't tell the citizens anything 
interesting, but they also don't tell themselves. Compartmentalized 
information is a big problem for the bureaucracy. Some of your 
biggest fans may be just as curious as the rest of us. Plus, they 
have to fight budget wars over these things.




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Oct 31 11:07:21 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 11:07:21 -0800
Subject: Osama bin Laden as SF fan
In-Reply-To: <3BE03A7F.D321BB05@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <82D28F2C-CE32-11D5-8FCC-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Wednesday, October 31, 2001, at 09:53 AM, Ken Brown wrote:

> Ken McLeod posted the following to rec.arts.sf.fandom
>
>> Forwarded with permission from China Mieville, fantasy writer
>> and student of international relations:
>
>>> ------- Forwarded message follows -------
>
>>> My supervisor, an expert in the Middle East, told me about a
>>> rumour circulating about the name of Bin Laden's network.
>>> The term 'Al-Qaeda' seems to have no political precedent in
>>> Arabic, and has therefore been something of a conundrum to
>>> the experts, until someone pointed out that a very popular
>>> book in the Arab world, Arabs apparently being big readers
>>>  of translated SF, is Asimov's _Foundation_, the title of
>>>  which is translated as 'Al-Qaeda'.
>
>>> Unlikely as it sounds, this is the only theory anyone can come up 
>>> with.


A report on this "strange coincidence" is at 
http://www.marsearthconnection.com/attack3a.html#foundation

Color me skeptical, though, as there is nothing particularly odd about 
"the foundation" being the name of a group. The U.S. media translation 
into "The Base" is just a variant of "The Foundation." One might as well 
say that the translation of "The Ford Foundation" into Arabic suggests 
Bin Laden is somehow connected with Ford..maybe this is why the 
Brimstone tires explode?

(Other etymological swirls: Foundation, founder, fund, base, basement,  
grundlagen/ground, fundament (ass, too, as in "bottom")/fundamental, 
basis, basic, a base observation, etc.--all are related to the concept 
of "lowest level" or "basis" or "bottom"; the Indo-European words 
obviously come from a "basis" or "foundation" or "fundamental" (fund, 
fountain, etc.) in a mix of Proto-Indo-European roots. Arabic is a 
Semitic language, like Hebrew, and so "Qaeda" has no particular obvious 
connection to foundation/fundament/base.)

"Foundations of Something"  = "Grundlagen der...."  =  "Groundwork 
for ... =  "The Basics of ...."


Google shows that Turkish uses the words

Kaida/Kayda

for base/foundation, so the cognates amongst the Semitic languages are 
obvious. I checked for Hebrew cognates, but am not yet convinced the 
connection is obvious.

(I don't have the American Heritage Dictionary of Semitic Roots, or 
whatever it is called, though I do have the AHD of Indo-European roots, 
one of my favorite browsing sources.)

The Web has the AHD sources of IE words, but not (yet) the Semitic 
sources.

--Tim May
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a 
monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also 
into you." -- Nietzsche




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Oct 31 11:42:11 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 11:42:11 -0800
Subject: Osama bin Laden as SF fan
In-Reply-To: <82D28F2C-CE32-11D5-8FCC-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <604E0048-CE37-11D5-8FCC-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Wednesday, October 31, 2001, at 11:07 AM, Tim May wrote:
>
> for base/foundation, so the cognates amongst the Semitic languages are
> obvious. I checked for Hebrew cognates, but am not yet convinced the
> connection is obvious.
>
> (I don't have the American Heritage Dictionary of Semitic Roots, or
> whatever it is called, though I do have the AHD of Indo-European roots,
> one of my favorite browsing sources.)
>
> The Web has the AHD sources of IE words, but not (yet) the Semitic
> sources.

Being curious, I did some more digging in online etymologies and 
dictionaries and found several transliterated versions of "foundation" 
into Hebrew. (The word "foundation" shows up in dozens, even hundreds, 
of Biblical passages, so we have lots and lots of old Aramaic and Hebrew 
appearances.)

Here's one I found at this site:

http://www.biblestudytools.net/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?search=foundation&version=
kjv&type=eng&submit=Find

Things like "yahcad" and "muwcahd" and "cuwdah"

foundation	hdwoy	y at cuwdah


Sure sounds like "kaida" or "qaida" to me.

And Asimov was Jewish, so this proves that "Hari Seldon," which is 
Arabic for "America will be conquered in the 17th cycle after the Greys 
established their bases in New Mexico," was in league with the Rastafari 
Bilderberger colonizers of the holy lands.


--Tim May
"Extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice."--Barry Goldwater




From jya at pipeline.com  Wed Oct 31 12:27:53 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 12:27:53 -0800
Subject: FBI MAS
In-Reply-To: <3BE0324C.73D9B0A1@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <200110311733.MAA03410@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>


>Any sense in blacklisting IP ranges and refusing connections?

No, we still abide the ground rules here, nobody is forbidden,
not TLAs not the commies not the loonies not the ethnics
not the school of americans and the iras and jihadists, all 
mars' angels get to eat the poison pills, except mindless bots 
which gobble bandwidth totally resistant to pesticide, and 
by that I mean a lot of bandwidth; medium sized waste 
is okay, as here at heavens gate.

But should emphasize the logs are immediately history
by promissory to readers once we axe bots, and even 
that is done only now and then. Every week or so we
lift all blocks in beatific amnesty of our glorious future 
leaders-bots. They retaliate immediately for our groveling
by taking over for an hour or two then move on to the 
terrorize the White House, the New York Times, 
Vatican, Forbidden City, US Military, overpowering the 
dying reputables' comfy obnox with rogue viral obnox.




From remailer at remailer.xganon.com  Wed Oct 31 10:45:13 2001
From: remailer at remailer.xganon.com (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 12:45:13 -0600
Subject: NOTAM: GA prohibited w/in 10 miles of nuke plants
Message-ID: 


>Sounds like the feds are treating the current "credible threat" as broad
>and shutting down all options.  Anyone care to posit a scenario in which
>GA could threaten a nuke?

The GA plane has a smoke machine and draws special doodles in the sky, which are seen by the plant operator and she gets hypnotised into disabling the cooling subsystem.

This is not a joke, this has been leaked from the top secret anti-terrorist docs.




From hakkin at sarin.com  Wed Oct 31 14:00:46 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 14:00:46 -0800
Subject: Osama uses Oracle DB
Message-ID: <3BE0748E.3F998A27@sarin.com>


DCF Quoth:

>>The name came into use when Osama used his cash to bankroll a series
of
bases in Pakistan to assist fighters on their way Afghanistan to fight
the
Commies.  He used the opportunity to collect a rather valuable direct
marketing list of somme 40,000 names and addresses of dedicated
Musselman
Warriors for future use.  Wonder what dbase software he uses?<<

*Obviously* Osama uses Oracle, because he and Larry Ellison are
Well-Known Evil Persons.




From declan at well.com  Wed Oct 31 11:09:37 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 14:09:37 -0500
Subject: Quarantines, hospital seizures: Powergrab 2001
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011030214555.039365d0@bivens.parrhesia.com>;
  from gbroiles@parrhesia.com on Tue, Oct 30, 2001 at 09:56:10PM -0800
References: <3BDF17E6.9B71927F@sarin.com>
  <5.1.0.14.2.20011030214555.039365d0@bivens.parrhesia.com>
Message-ID: <20011031140937.A26217@cluebot.com>


It would be interesting to compare the provisions you describe in this
bill (I have not yet read it) with existing powers that federal and
state authorities have when an "emergency" is declared. Seems to me
that much if this authority is already on the books.

-Declan


On Tue, Oct 30, 2001 at 09:56:10PM -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:
> Oh, it goes far beyond that - it creates a system where, upon a governor's 
> declaration of a public health emergency, the public health authorities get 
> control of all food, guns, medicine, fuel, clothing, medical facilities, 
> doctors, and human beings within the affected area - they're entitled to 
> immediate possession of   whatever useful private property they want, which 
> can be redistributed, held, or destroyed as they see fit - and they're 
> empowered to use public safety agencies to force doctors perform 
> examinations, tests or vaccinate/immunize similarly uncooperative 
> individuals, and to create quarantine or exclusion areas as they consider 
> useful.
> 
> It's pretty much a police state implementation act.
> 
> 
> --
> Greg Broiles -- gbroiles at parrhesia.com -- PGP 0x26E4488c or 0x94245961
> 5000 dead in NYC? National tragedy.
> 1000 detained incommunicado without trial, expanded surveillance? National 
> disgrace.




From faustine at lokmail.net  Wed Oct 31 11:17:51 2001
From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 14:17:51 -0500
Subject: FBI MAS
Message-ID: <200110311917.OAA10210@mail.lokmail.net>

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From email at shopmanna.com  Wed Oct 31 06:19:59 2001
From: email at shopmanna.com (Shop@Manna)
Date: 31 Oct 2001 14:19:59 -0000
Subject: Choose 3 Free Lipsticks Offer - While Supplies Last
Message-ID: <1004537999.80814.qmail@ech>

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From frissell at panix.com  Wed Oct 31 11:21:48 2001
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 14:21:48 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Osama bin Laden as SF fan
In-Reply-To: <3BE03A7F.D321BB05@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: 


On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, Ken Brown wrote:

> Ken McLeod posted the following to rec.arts.sf.fandom
>
> > Forwarded with permission from China Mieville, fantasy writer
> > and student of international relations:
>
> >> ------- Forwarded message follows -------
>
> >> My supervisor, an expert in the Middle East, told me about a
> >> rumour circulating about the name of Bin Laden's network.
> >> The term 'Al-Qaeda' seems to have no political precedent in
> >> Arabic, and has therefore been something of a conundrum to
> >> the experts, until someone pointed out that a very popular
> >> book in the Arab world, Arabs apparently being big readers
> >>  of translated SF, is Asimov's _Foundation_, the title of
> >>  which is translated as 'Al-Qaeda'.
>

***********

http://www.jerrykindall.com/2001/october.asp

Apparently, "al-Qaeda"  means "the base." Which will almost certainly
lead to an obnoxious rash of "al your Qaeda are belong to U.S." sightings.


***********

The name came into use when Osama used his cash to bankroll a series of
bases in Pakistan to assist fighters on their way Afghanistan to fight the
Commies.  He used the opportunity to collect a rather valuable direct
marketing list of somme 40,000 names and addresses of dedicated Musselman
Warriors for future use.  Wonder what dbase software he uses?

DCF
----
"War is a great excuse to get out of the house and away from the
wife and kids."




From freevision at topcities.com  Wed Oct 31 06:43:18 2001
From: freevision at topcities.com (freevision)
Date: Mi, 31 Oct 2001  16:43:18 +0200
Subject: New earn opportunity
Message-ID: <200110011400.HAA17480@toad.com>

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From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Wed Oct 31 09:43:59 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 17:43:59 +0000
Subject: NOTAM:  GA prohibited w/in 10 miles of nuke plants
References: <20011030183641.A20647@navel.introspect>
Message-ID: <3BE0385F.8925ED57@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


"Karsten M. Self" wrote:

[...]

> Sounds like the feds are treating the current "credible threat" as broad
> and shutting down all options.  Anyone care to posit a scenario in which
> GA could threaten a nuke?

Yep.  Mr. Usr Bin Local records a video saying that a light aircraft
that hits the  at the power plant will cause it to release
large amounts of  Evil Radiation. The only thing to do is
to escape upwind as quickly as possible and never come back within 20
miles or you will all die and your children will grow horns and tails.
But the Government doesn't want the citizens to know because then it
will cause panic, and the emergency services will be stressed by all the
radiation-sick, and more people will die anyway of starvation, rioting,
looting, & so on.

Then release it to the media (of more than one country) just about the
time the plane hits the concrete. so the locals will see the reports as
they see the firetrucks screaming. Whether or not the plant is seriously
damaged is neither here nor there.

Actually, you don't have to make the video, because people will come the
that very conclusion by themselves as soon as they see the expert types
on the TV telling them that there is no reason to panic.

Or say the plane is filled with lots of anthrax. Doesn't really have to
be for the first-order effect - just has to be believed to be. 

Ken Brown




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Wed Oct 31 09:53:03 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 17:53:03 +0000
Subject: Osama bin Laden as SF fan
References: <20011030183641.A20647@navel.introspect>
Message-ID: <3BE03A7F.D321BB05@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Ken McLeod posted the following to rec.arts.sf.fandom

> Forwarded with permission from China Mieville, fantasy writer 
> and student of international relations:

>> ------- Forwarded message follows -------

>> My supervisor, an expert in the Middle East, told me about a
>> rumour circulating about the name of Bin Laden's network.
>> The term 'Al-Qaeda' seems to have no political precedent in 
>> Arabic, and has therefore been something of a conundrum to 
>> the experts, until someone pointed out that a very popular
>> book in the Arab world, Arabs apparently being big readers
>>  of translated SF, is Asimov's _Foundation_, the title of
>>  which is translated as 'Al-Qaeda'.

>> Unlikely as it sounds, this is the only theory anyone can come up with.

Ken [the other one - not me ] added:

> This hypothesis raises some interesting possibilities. One is 
> that bin Laden has a number of video appearances prepared in 
> advance, which without being too specific give the impression
> that he knows what has just happened at the time they're shown.
>  They could continue to appear at intervals long after his reported death.

> Another is that there's a Second Al-Qaeda, somewhere else.


Ken Brown (thanks to John Dallman for showing me this on Cix)




From thingsunsaid2001 at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 31 18:12:06 2001
From: thingsunsaid2001 at yahoo.com (ThingsUnsaid)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 18:12:06 -0800
Subject: Introducing Your Delayed Messaging Service
Message-ID: 


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AND Bill s.1618 TITLE III passed by the 105th U.S. Congress. 

Further transmissions may be stopped at no cost to you by replying to this message 
with the word "REMOVE" in the subject line.




From reeza at hawaii.rr.com  Wed Oct 31 21:23:50 2001
From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 19:23:50 -1000
Subject: Transperancy Spray?
In-Reply-To: <3BDF9809.8159.1421B866@localhost>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011030162551.02e4f8c0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com>
 <3BDEDAC2.9950.113E5947@localhost>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011031184410.02cde940@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com>


At 06:19 AM 10/31/01 -0800, georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote:

>>>I think freon is incredibly inert, that's why it's used.
>> 
>> Heat freon up enough, it turns into phosgene gas (as it breaks down
>> into simpler components).  The CBR types call that Blood Agent.  
>> Just think of how carbon monoxide supplants oxygen in your red blood 
>> cells, that's what phosgene gas does.  I do not seem to remember the 
>> critical temperature but a lit cigarette will do it.
 
>Here's a link to the MSDS
>http://www.ansul.com/Material_Safety_Data_Sheets/F-85312.pdf
>it says above 900 F Freon will decompose into hydrochloric and
>hydrofluoric acids.  Doesn't mention phosgene,

Try this one:

http://www.vngas.com/pdf/g143.pdf

> although you'd
>proabably get that if the air was dry enough.

How dry will the air be at the burning cherry on a cigarette?

Reese




From inc at fastmedia.net  Wed Oct 31 21:36:56 2001
From: inc at fastmedia.net (cpaul)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 19:36:56 -1000
Subject: what kind of bomb?
Message-ID: <20011031193656.62d70556.inc@fastmedia.net>





Witnesses also said they saw a U.S. plane drop a bomb Tuesday
at the Bagram front lines, about 25 miles north of Kabul,
creating a mushroom cloud that billowed at least 1,000 feet
into the air.


http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011030/ts/attacks_afghanistan_549.html




From fogstorm at mac.com  Wed Oct 31 20:39:41 2001
From: fogstorm at mac.com (FogStorm)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 20:39:41 -0800
Subject: what kind of bomb?
In-Reply-To: <3BE030BB.2B86312B@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <7706D619-CE82-11D5-A12B-0030657961FE@mac.com>


On Wednesday, October 31, 2001, at 09:11  AM, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote:

> cpaul  wrote :
>> Witnesses also said they saw a U.S. plane drop a bomb Tuesday
>> at the Bagram front lines, about 25 miles north of Kabul,
>> creating a mushroom cloud that billowed at least 1,000 feet
>> into the air.
>>
>>
>> http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011030/ts/attacks_afghanistan_549.html
>>
> A really big one. Still conventional. Besides, a standard-sized one
> might have hit a munitions or fuel bunker.
>
>  Hell, a 10 acre tire fire in central California made a "mushroom"
> shaped cloud several thousand feet high.
>
> During Vietnam there were boxcar-sized bombs used to clear an LZ in the
> jungle. How many tons? I don't know but they made ~100 yard circle.
>
BLU-82

15,000 lb.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/blu-82.htm




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Oct 31 21:04:47 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 21:04:47 -0800
Subject: [The Star Article] Canadian lawyers asked to fink on
  clients (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Wednesday, October 31, 2001, at 08:19 PM, !Dr. Joe Baptista wrote:

> The next time you plunk down money for a lawyer, you might also be 
> hiring
> the government's chief witness against you.
>
> enjoy
>
> On Wed, 31 Oct 2001 mailto at thestar.ca wrote:
>
>> Thought you might be interested in this one.
>> http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&
>> c=Article&cid=1004482927745&call_page=TS_Canada&call_pageid=968332188774&
>> call_pagepath=News/Canada&col=968350116467
>>
>> Wed Oct 31 23:05:59 2001
>

It is a profoundly moral act to kill any lawyer who acts as a witness 
for the other side.


--Tim May
"Extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice."--Barry Goldwater




From fogstorm at mac.com  Wed Oct 31 21:16:00 2001
From: fogstorm at mac.com (FogStorm)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 21:16:00 -0800
Subject: what kind of bomb?
In-Reply-To: <7706D619-CE82-11D5-A12B-0030657961FE@mac.com>
Message-ID: <899A0BCE-CE87-11D5-A12B-0030657961FE@mac.com>



On Wednesday, October 31, 2001, at 08:39  PM, FogStorm wrote:

> On Wednesday, October 31, 2001, at 09:11  AM, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote:
>
>> cpaul  wrote :
>>> Witnesses also said they saw a U.S. plane drop a bomb Tuesday
>>> at the Bagram front lines, about 25 miles north of Kabul,
>>> creating a mushroom cloud that billowed at least 1,000 feet
>>> into the air.
>>>
>>>
>>> http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011030/ts/attacks_afghanistan_549.html
>>>
>> A really big one. Still conventional. Besides, a standard-sized one
>> might have hit a munitions or fuel bunker.
>>
>>  Hell, a 10 acre tire fire in central California made a "mushroom"
>> shaped cloud several thousand feet high.
>>
>> During Vietnam there were boxcar-sized bombs used to clear an LZ in the
>> jungle. How many tons? I don't know but they made ~100 yard circle.
>>
> BLU-82
>
> 15,000 lb.
>
> http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/blu-82.htm

It also could have been a fuel-air explosive.

The BLU-95 is 500 pounds & the BLU-96 is 2000. They use propylene oxide 
gas.

Slide show of weapon in action with brief description: 
http://www.nawcwpns.navy.mil/~bronkhor/clmf/faeseq.html




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From eiuw at ozemail.com.au  Wed Oct 31 22:34:24 2001
From: eiuw at ozemail.com.au (eiuw at ozemail.com.au)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 22:34:24
Subject: Totally Hot Teenagers!
Message-ID: <286.12052.128604@ozemail.com.au>

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From tcmay at got.net  Wed Oct 31 23:17:25 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 23:17:25 -0800
Subject: Fw:  New Scientist: Microwave Crowd Dispersal
  Tested (ADT)
In-Reply-To: <20011101171228.178850d1.inc@fastmedia.net>
Message-ID: <804761CB-CE98-11D5-8FCC-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Thursday, November 1, 2001, at 07:12 PM, cpaul wrote:

> aluminum foil?
>
>
> * * *
>

More inane pseudo-questions.

The list has degenerated to a new low.

Into the cornfield you go.



--Tim May
"You don't expect governments to obey the law because of some higher 
moral development. You expect them to obey the law because they know 
that if they don't, those who aren't shot will be hanged." - -Michael 
Shirley




From baptista at pccf.net  Wed Oct 31 20:19:07 2001
From: baptista at pccf.net (!Dr. Joe Baptista)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 23:19:07 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [The Star Article] Canadian lawyers asked to fink on
  clients (fwd)
Message-ID: 


The next time you plunk down money for a lawyer, you might also be hiring
the government's chief witness against you.

enjoy

On Wed, 31 Oct 2001 mailto at thestar.ca wrote:

> Thought you might be interested in this one.
> http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1004482927745&call_page=TS_Canada&call_pageid=968332188774&call_pagepath=News/Canada&col=968350116467
> 
> Wed Oct 31 23:05:59 2001

-- 
Joe Baptista

http://www.dot-god.com/

The dot.GOD Registry, Limited
The Executive Plaza, Suite 908
150 West 51st Street                     Tel: 1 (208) 330-4173
Manhattan Island NYC 10019 USA           Fax: 1 (208) 293-9773




From anonymous at remailer.havenco.com  Wed Oct 31 15:37:15 2001
From: anonymous at remailer.havenco.com (Anonymous User)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 23:37:15 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: FBI MAS 
Message-ID: <2c7377052343eb1bc05a0210d9eeafcb@remailer.havenco.com>


>Anybody have information about this FBI operation,
>which siphoned about 1/5 of Cryptome this AM:

So now the evidence has been collected.

I wonder if the thugs feel strong enough now to do away with
almost all dissent.

The whipped up sheeple opinion is at the peak. It's not getting
any higher. Flag sales sharply went down, and that has been noted
and acknowledged. So now we have "new warning from FBI about This
Week's Threat, but that can be done only few times ... continuous
threats lose effect.

There is a room full of frustrated males that don't get enough
sex from their ugly wives and expensive mistresses (T. May
syndrome is universal, after all), and they will do some
ultraviolence instead.

So expect the clampdown to begin any time now. The "public" will
cheer neutering of proponents of anti-government technologies
(stego, crypto) and of those who publish government's secrets.

cpunks will never be the same without JYA.




From verba at rol.it  Wed Oct 31 18:10:25 2001
From: verba at rol.it (verba at rol.it)
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 03:10:25 +0100
Subject: Verba Volant del 01-11-01
Message-ID: <1004584226@web2bk.logos.it>


Verba Volant del 01-11-01,
Every day a new quotation translated into many languages. 

Logos Translations - www.logostranslations.com 
_________________

Quotation of the day:
Author - Umberto Eco
http://www.logos.it/bio/umberto_eco.html

English - there is only one thing that excites animals more than pleasure, and it is pain
Italian - c'� una sola cosa che eccita gli animali pi� del piacere, ed � il dolore
Spanish - s�lo una cosa excita a los animales m�s que el placer, y es el dolor
French - il n'y a qu'une seule chose qui exite les animaux davantage que le plaisir, c'est la douleur
Portuguese - apenas uma coisa excita os animais mais do que o prazer: a dor
Brazilian Portuguese - apenas uma coisa excita os animais mais do que o prazer, � a dor
German - es gibt nur eines, was Tier st�rker erregt als Lust und das ist Schmerz
Hungarian - csak egy dolog van, ami az �llatokat jobban izgatja az �lvezetn�l, �s ez a f�jdalom
Finnish - on vain yksi asia, joka kiihottaa el�imi� enemm�n kuin mielihyv�, ja se on kipu
Catalan - hi ha una cosa que excita els animals m�s que el plaer, �s el dolor
Croatian - jedna jedina stvar uzbuduje �ivotinje vi�e od u�ivanja, i to je bol
Czech - pouze jedna vec vzru�uje zv�rata v�ce ne� rozko�, toti� bolest
Dutch - maar ��n ding geeft dieren meer genoegdoening dan genot, nl. pijn
Emiliano-Romagnolo - u'i � na roba soula ca l'� goudebla m'al bisciazzi pi� ch'el piesir; la � e' patiment
Furlan - 'e j� une sole robe che stizie lis bestis plui dal plas�, e al � il dol�r
Latin - unum stimulat animalia magis quam voluptas, hoc est dolor
Latvian; Lettish - ir tikai viena lieta, kas dzivniekus uztrauc vairak neka prieks, un tas ir sapes
Occitan - i a una sol�ta causa que tira las b�stias mai dal plaser, e es la dolor
Polish - jest tylko jedna rzecz, kt�ra pobudza bardziej zwierzeta niz przyjemnosc, to cierpienie
Romanian - un singur lucru poate excita animalele mai mult dec�t placerea, si anume durerea
Slovak - iba jedna vec vzru�zje zvierat� viac ako rozko�, a to bolest
Venetian - ghe xe solo na roba che ingala i omani de pi� del piaxer, el xe el dolore
Sicilian - c'� 'na sula cosa ca eccita l'animali cchi� d' 'u piaciri, e i� 'u duluri
Flemish - maar ��n ding geeft dieren meer genoegdoening dan genot, nl. pijn
Calabrese - esisti nu cuntu sulu che stimula li bestie chi� di u piaciri, � u duluri
Reggiano - gh'� sol un qu�ll che squasa al b�sti pi� che al g�st: l'� al meel
Ferrarese - a gh� s�l un qu�l cal f� andar i animai in amor ad pi� dal piaser, e l'� al dulor
Bolognese - ai � s�ul un qu�l ch�al fa vg�r s� al murb�n a c�l b�sti pi� dal g�sst, e l � al dul�ur 

_________________

All languages, please click on this link
http://www.rol.it/owa-k/press.frasiproc.carica?code=434
_________________

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