Trying again (Re: failure notice)

Adam Shostack adam at homeport.org
Fri Nov 30 12:45:03 PST 2001


On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 10:44:09AM -0800, Tim May wrote:
| 
| Attempting to get this through. About half of the messages I have tried 

(the quoting may be off.)

| > On Friday, November 30, 2001, at 09:06 AM, Adam Shostack wrote:
| >
| >> On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 08:21:32AM -0800, Tim May wrote:
| >> | On Friday, November 30, 2001, at 07:55 AM, Harmon Seaver wrote:
| >> |
| >> | >       Dubbya should be impeached, and both he and Asscruft arrested
| >> for
| >> | > treason.
| >> |
| >> | Quite interesting the language they keep using: "Terrorists don't 
| >> have
| >> | rights."
| >> |
| >> | The 1200 persons detained without due process, without habeas corpus,
| >> | for close to three months, are presumed to be "terrorists" and thus
| >> are
| >> | denied the rights guaranteed by the Constitution.
| >>
| >> No, they're not.  See this article in yesterday's Times:
| >> http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/28/national/28LEGA.html?ex=1007614800&en=
| >> ec5ced02619720c8&
| >> ei=5040&partner=MOREOVER
| >>
| >
| > I see nothing in this article to alter the gist of what I said. The
| > article says 1100 were held at one time. 548 still being held. Yeah, the
| > charges are vague "immigration violations," but we know why they were
| > really detained and are still being held. (BTW, lawyers for a bunch of
| > them, those who have managed to get lawyers that is, have said their
| > clients would like to return to their home countries. Should be SOP to
| > let a "immigration violation" detainee solve the problem by leaving,
| > right?)

No, I was really quibbling over the terrorist bit.  Even the
government can no longer make a straight-faced claim they're
terrorists.  Now, they need to explain how they're ignoring the civil
rights of people, who, as you point out, are being held incommunicado, 
and, in my non-lawyerly not-really-all-that-humble-opinion, how their
action differs from kidnapping.

| > An undisclosed number of those detainees are being held incommunicado as
| > "material witnesses." Not as immigration violations, but as "material
| > witnesses." The same vague basis could be used to arrest and detain
| > without charge dozens of folks just like us on our list.
| >
| > Civil liberties types used to gasp at British plans to arrest suspects
| > without charge and hold them for up to 72 hours on the say-so of a
| > burowcrat...look at the holding of 548-1100 people for a period of
| > weeks-months without any charges being filed in open court.
| >
| > "Immigration violations" and "material witness" my ass!

Quite.


| >> What grounds Ashcroft is using to deny them their civil rights is not
| >> clear.
| >>
| >> Who will rid me of this meddlesome Constitution, indeed.
| >>
| >> | The police state measures rushed into law by Congress will be used to
| >> | suppress dissidents long after this war is over.
| >>
| >> Quite sad.  There was an article in IP last night about Canada doing
| >> the same thing; defining protesters as terrorists.  (There's a history
| >> here; the RCMP was quite vicious in its post-arrest treatment of
| >> protesters against some Indonesian dictator a few years ago.)
| >
| > I expect the next Cypherpunk to be arrested will be tried under these
| > new "terrorist" laws.
| >
| > I won't go so far as to predict that a dozen active list members will be
| > rounded up in pre-dawn raids and held incommunicado and without charges
| > being filed promptly, and with normal bail procedures, but it wouldn't
| > surprise me.
| >
| > What it will probably take is for some kind of ricin attack on Federal
| > Persecutor offices. A few dozen dead Feds and I'd expect every group
| > that has ever discussed ricin and sarin to be raided.
| >
| > Terrorists have no rights. First we determine them to be terrorists,
| > then we hold a military tribunal. Amerikan justice is the envy of the
| > world.

Indeed. Amazing how quickly we can lose the value of so many
hard-fought precedents.

Adam

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume





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